Northern Ireland Assembly, 15 December 1999

122 contributions from 36 members. The official report.

Budget Proposals (2000-01)

Mark Durkan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

With permission, Mr Speaker, I would like to make a statement.

This morning we reach another important milestone on the road to fulfilling our new responsibilities under the Good Friday Agreement. I have the honour of laying before the Assembly the first Budget agreed by the Executive Committee.

The management of public spending is one of the fundamental responsibilities of any Government, and this is the first time in almost 30 years that local politicians have had the privilege of accepting this responsibility. The Budget for the next financial year 2000-01 has been agreed by the Executive Committee, and in fulfilment of section 64 of the Northern Ireland Act (1998) I now lay it before the Assembly.

The Act and the Good Friday Agreement envisage that the Assembly and its Committees will be able to scrutinise the Budget proposals before voting on them at some future date. I want to explain the background before taking questions on this statement.

We have also taken charge of the Budget for the remainder of this year, 1999-2000. This will require very careful management by all Ministers to match spending to the resources available. However, today we are looking forward to the Budget for next year.

Our intentions in the agreement were that the spending plans should be embedded in and support the programme of government. As we take responsibility for the public services devolved to the Assembly under the agreement, it is vital that we develop a clear and coherent view of what we are trying to achieve and that that view is both realistic and visionary. That is right at the core of our new role, and we have a compelling obligation, but also a great opportunity, to set the new direction for the policies and services that are needed and wanted by our people. The programme of government will express the vision, and the spending plans will be one of the most important means of delivering that programme.

We now have to move from championing a few issues to deciding priorities among all the issues — from opposing to leading — and hence earn the respect of those who have entrusted us with this role. We must graduate from making demands to making decisions; from making demands against each other to making decisions with each other and for each other. The new politics will be not about arguing the worst in each other but about achieving the best for all.

Reaching agreement on the programme of government and the spending plans will mean addressing the hard choices that lie ahead. However, by virtue of the talks process, and from the experience that many Members have of working together in district councils and other bodies, I believe that we are well prepared for the task.

Some very clear guiding principles are expressed in the agreement. The Budget has to command cross-community support, and there can be no question of any Minister, or the Executive Committee as a whole, pursuing spending plans which are manifestly unfair. Quality and equality are the twin ethics which must inform the development of public policy, the delivery of public services and the management of public spending.

In the new structures there needs to be scope for each Minister and the respective departmental Committee to work together to produce detailed plans which will ensure that departmental budgets are used in the best possible way to serve the interests of all. Working closely with the Office of the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister, my Department and I will be examining spending plans and proposals in order to get the best possible value for money.

Work is only beginning on the process of drawing up the programme of government, and we have entered devolution very late in the cycle for planning a Budget for next year.

For these reasons the Executive Committee has decided that the Budget plans for the year 2000-01 should roll forward the plans that we inherited.

This is not to say that the Executive Committee is satisfied with the total spending power given to us in these plans or with the detail of how the funds are to be distributed. We believe that the plans can and must be improved, and as we improve them our having democratically elected local politicians taking decisions will be seen to be making a strong, positive and valuable difference. However, our view is that the changes we make should be guided by the programme of government, when it is ready. It would be wrong to be rushed into premature shifts in spending allocations, especially at this stage of the year.

Time and circumstances do not allow us to demonstrate yet the difference devolution will make. To engage gratuitously in significant or even superficial reallocations at this point would be an indulgence tantamount to political joyriding with the associated risks of danger and damage.

The plans we have inherited give us a total of £8.9 billion for public services. Of that amount we have full discretion for about £5 billion. The rest is needed for the likes of social-security benefits or for matters that have already been defined, such as the EU peace programme, and for which specific additions have been agreed by the Treasury in London. The total is decided by the Cabinet in London, and we will need to do all we can to ensure that we receive a fair and acceptable share of the Chancellor’s cake.

As many Members are well aware from other contexts, once the final allocation is known, the remaining responsibility is to take the best possible decisions on the use of whatever fixed total amount of money is available. The allocations to the range of services we have inherited reflect the decisions taken by the previous Secretary of State in December 1998 following the comprehensive spending review, and those decisions set fixed totals for spending on that range. Much has happened since then, and new costs affect almost all of our public services. In the longer term we will need to take decisions on dealing with these pressures as we work to set out our priorities in the programme of government. In the meantime, the Executive Committee’s view is that it is best if each Department adjusts its spending plans for the first year, with the agreement of the Department of Finance and Personnel, to enable it to make the necessary provision for developments since December 1998.

The plans that we have inherited make provision for the new costs of the Assembly, the new Departments, the North/South bodies, the North/South Ministerial Council, the Civic Forum and the Equality Commission. These costs are significant, and, although we are in no doubt that the provisions of the agreement have to be paid for, we also have a responsibility to operate the new structures with a proper concern for economy. The Department of Finance and Personnel and the Public Accounts Committee, which has yet to be appointed, will seek to promote the need to get good value for money in all aspects of the new arrangements.

The only revenue measure which is under our control is the regional rate. This is now part of the financing of our total spending plans. We have inherited plans that depend on the domestic regional rate’s being increased by 8% per year for the next two years. One associated factor was the decision by the previous Secretary of State to increase spending on the water and sewerage system. This is necessary to enable it to reach the standards that have been set by the EU. We will need to review the regional rate as part of our work on the programme of government, but for the year immediately ahead the Executive Committee has decided to roll forward the plans that we inherited. This will mean an increase in the domestic regional rate of 8% and in the non-domestic regional rate of 5.3%.

The spending plans for 2000-01 do not yet include the expenditure which had to be deferred from 1999-2000 as a result of the delay in the sale of Belfast harbour. If the sale does proceed, it will be possible to go ahead with action on the key projects which were held up this year.

Also still ahead are the decisions on the new round of EU structural funds. There will need to be further extensive discussion on their use, and especially on the use of the new peace programme, which is a unique resource available to be used as effectively as possible in the new context we face. At this first formal opportunity, I would like to express our thanks for and appreciation of the consistent and patient support from the European Council of Ministers and the Commission, throughout the peace process and our thanks too for the goodwill that has also been shown by so many. We owe much to the former Commission, and especially to President Santer and Commissioners Wulf-Mathies and Flynn. We have already received indications of support from President Prodi and Commissioner Barnier, and we look forward to working with them and their colleagues to ensure that wider European experience can help us to grow as a region.

Members will be relieved to know that I will not attempt now to explain all the details of the spending plans for each service for the year ahead. Some of the key facts are covered in the Budget document which has been made available to Members. The figures for individual services for next year are in some cases higher and in some cases lower than for this year. There are various reasons for this, such as one-off items of spending in 1999-2000, changes in the responsibilities of departments for services and reallocations determined in the comprehensive spending review. Also, the figures are rounded to the nearest million, which I admit can distort the comparisons. The Committees will be provided with more detailed figures to enable them to scrutinise these proposals, and I am sure that they will wish to look at all of the factors in detail.

The allocations include the costs of devolution, which are higher than was specifically provided for in the comprehensive spending review. I refer here, for example, to the costs of the Assembly itself and of the North/South bodies. We have been able to cover the additional costs by using funds which had not been finally committed in the comprehensive spending review. Thus the allocation in this Budget for each of the new Departments will maintain the same level of service provision as in the publicly announced plans inherited from the comprehensive spending review.

Each departmental Committee will be able to take evidence on the implications for services for 2000-01 in its Department, and Ministers will provide details as appropriate. Many people working in key public services are depending on our decisions to enable them to make more detailed plans — for example, for their school or hospital. Thus the position needs to be finalised as soon as possible. In the meantime, Departments will be planning on the basis of the figures set out in the Budget document unless and until any changes are agreed with the Assembly, and they will be providing the necessary details to their sponsored bodies on this basis.

However, I encourage everybody to remember that these plans cover only the first year of our responsibilities. We should devote most of our energies in the next few months to developing a programme of government that can truly express our hopes and aspirations for our people. At the same time we will be participating in the next United Kingdom spending review, which will cover the years 2001-02 to 2003-04. This will be on the new basis of resource budgeting, which will make sure that, in a new way, our thinking is focussed on the outcomes we are trying to achieve and will bring home more fully the true resource costs of the options for action. Next year’s review will be not just about disciplined financial management but also about conscientious policy setting.

I look forward to the opportunity next year to present a Budget that is built on that process and demonstrates our view of the priorities and objectives for the services for which we are now responsible.

I am very grateful for the understanding, co-operation and support that have been shown by all Ministers during the urgent discussions that we have had on the Budget since devolution. I recognise the pressures that this Budget has entailed for them. Many Departments will be anxious to avail of any in-year easements or savings that may become available as 2000-01 progresses. This underlines the importance of disciplined financial management, and I hope that the Assembly Committees will take account of the significance of this need for discipline as they begin to examine the spending plans. The Department of Finance and Personnel and I will work with and for all the other Departments and Ministers. We will not be high-handed, but we will be hard-headed.

I invite the Assembly to consider these Budget proposals and to approve them following timely deliberation by the Committees.

James Leslie (UUP, North Antrim)

The Minister will be aware that there was some discussion yesterday about the cost of the North/South Ministerial Council. In the Budget statement, references are made to approximately £8 million of expenditure, distributed among five Departments. There is also a reference to the sum provision of these costs in the Office of the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister. Can the Minister tell the House what he considers to be the likely first-year cost of these bodies? Also, can he confirm that these costs will be divided equally between the Northern Ireland Assembly and Dáil Éireann — in other words, that the amounts spent by the Assembly will be matched by amounts by Dáil Éireann?

Secondly, may I draw the Minister’s attention to his remarks about the sale of Belfast harbour. He said that if the sale were to proceed, it would be possible to go ahead with key projects which were held up this year. If this sale does not proceed, does he envisage some of the infrastructure projects, which are of considerable importance in a number of areas, being funded in other ways? Does he envisage trying to make savings elsewhere in the Budget in order to enable these projects to go ahead even if the sale of the port does not proceed?

Mark Durkan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

I understood that I would take a series of questions and reply to them in the way that happened yesterday.

If we achieve the sale of the harbour this year we will be able to make moves on deferred projects that it was intended should be undertaken. If we do not do that, we will not be able to move on those projects, and the Departments that would have been sponsoring them and the Department of Finance and Personnel will have to see what options remain. Those decisions would have to be taken not by my Department but by various Departments and the Executive Committee.

The cost of the North/South bodies is shared between ourselves and the authorities in the South, and the manner in which that happens varies from body to body, depending on the nature of the work involved. We do not pay any more than a fair and reasonable share of the costs.

It should also be understood that these bodies were set up to achieve benefits, and they will achieve those benefits. We should not look at those bodies simply in terms of cost. We need to look at the benefits that will accrue from the programmes that will be undertaken and at the savings that may accrue from the workings of the bodies and from broader North/South co-operation in the future.

John (Speaker, Belfast East)

I should have made it clear that the Minister will respond after each question.

Donovan McClelland (Social Democratic and Labour Party, South Antrim)

I welcome this Budget and the Minister’s statement that future Budgets

"will be on the new basis of resource budgeting, which will make sure that, in a new way, our thinking is focused on the outcomes we are trying to achieve and will bring home more fully the true resource costs of the options for action."

I recognise that it would have been difficult for the Minister, in the short time available, to look at the vexed question of student grants and loans. In future budgets, will he look at the possibility of making money available to the Department of Higher and Further Education, Training and Employment so that it can meet this expenditure?

Mark Durkan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

The Minister for Higher and Further Education, Training and Employment has indicated an interest in this question, as has the departmental Committee. We will wait and see what comes from that. I should point out, however, that there are financial implications. The abolition of fees would mean that the institutions would lose that part of the £1,025 per student fee income that they receive from private sources. To compensate the institutions for that would cost us some £15 million per year at today’s prices. In exploring our options we need to understand that any such expenditure would have to come from somewhere else, and those immediate cost implications are not the only ones. This matter is for the Minister and the departmental Committee to explore. I am simply pointing out the cost implications.

On the broader area of resource budgeting, Members should not see this as some new, dry financial management advice from the Treasury. It is a means of making sure that our approach to public expenditure moves beyond a fixation with inputs and with comparing one year’s inputs with the next year’s. The traditional approach has been to increment the inputs year on year, without focusing on achieving the real outcomes we want, or even on what those outcomes are. The shift to resource budgeting will create convergence between necessary disciplined financial management and conscientious policymaking. Having identified the outcomes that we want, we will then compare budgets and performance to see that output is related to outcomes and that input is sufficient to achieve those outcomes. This will be better than the more limited and, in policy terms, less effective approach that we have been used to.

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

I cannot see whether the Minister has a red briefcase, but I know that he has a red file, which is a good start.

The Minister has set out a cost of £10 million against the 10 new Departments. That is a little less than the £90 million postulated by the Ulster Unionist Party’s financial whizz-kid, Jim Nicholson, but it is still a significant amount. The Minister also set aside £8 million for the North/South bodies. What are the costs of the North/South Ministerial Council and the Civic Forum, which is buried somewhere in the Office of the First and Deputy First Ministers?

The Minister also said that it has been possible to cover the additional costs by using funds that were not finally committed in the comprehensive spending review. This is a little different from the approach that he took last year when he said that there was an understanding at the round-table discussion that over the life of the Assembly the additional costs for the new arrangements would be recovered elsewhere.

Mr John Taylor also indicated that any extra expenditure should be offset by rationalising the remainder of public administration in Northern Ireland.

What plans does the Minister have to reclaim this money from other sources — for example, by reducing the number of quangos? Members heard yesterday that more quangos are to be created. The money for these new institutions would normally have gone to schools or roads if it had not been used. How does the Minister intend to reclaim the money to fund these institutions?

Mark Durkan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

Five hundred thousand pounds has been provided to meet the costs of the North/South Ministerial Council, and £360,000 for the Civic Forum.

As I said in my statement, the costs of the new institutions are being carried in such a way that the Budget allocation for each of the new Departments will allow the same level of service provision as was provided for in the publicly announced plans of the comprehensive spending review which we have inherited. The costs are not being levied against any of the planned programmes.

The wider and slightly longer-term question of making good those costs by achieving savings in other administrative areas will be addressed in the programme of government. These savings will not be achieved overnight, and we must ensure that the total administrative structure is working effectively. The new Departments, having a greater focus on their own responsibilities — and perhaps being able to brigade together the more compatible and less incongruous ones — will be able to deliver more effective and efficient programmes.

Many of the new Departments may also be in a better position to explore other options, such as the private finance initiative, than previously.

Barry McElduff (Sinn Féin, West Tyrone)

A Chathaoirligh. Ba mhaith liom fáilte a chur roimh an tuairisc seo agus ádh mór a ghuí leis an Uasal Durkan ina phost nua. I welcome the report and offer support to the Minister in his new role. All Members will take time to study the public expenditure plans. Previously, by lobbying, I and others secured a commitment from the Department of the Environment, in conjunction with the Department of Finance and Personnel, for a review of the £2,900 allowable-costs limit for houses in rural areas which are not yet connected to a water main. I look forward to such matters being resolved in the immediate future, because decisions of this nature were put on hold until the transfer of powers was complete. I look forward to the Ministers’ working with the heads of Departments to clear up such outstanding matters.

I also look forward to an increase in the overall Northern Ireland Budget and to the peace dividend, with the increasing normalisation of society. Go raibh maith agat.

John (Speaker, Belfast East)

Questions should be couched as questions. Otherwise it will be difficult for the Minister to respond.

Barry McElduff (Sinn Féin, West Tyrone)

I am looking for a commitment from the Minister that he will clear up these outstanding matters.

Mark Durkan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

I am not sure if the outstanding matters that I have to clear up relate to some of the security issues or to water connection charges. I cannot comment on the latter, as another Department is directly responsible for them. Naturally, the parent Department will wish to address the matter in consultation with the Department of Finance and Personnel, but it would be wrong for me to give an undertaking that pre-empted or cut across the role of any other Department.

With regard to Mr McElduff’s kind remarks, I would like to say go raibh maith agat.

Séan Neeson (Alliance, East Antrim)

Having listened to the Minister’s statement, I am convinced more than ever that the Assembly should have tax-raising and tax-varying powers in line with those of the devolved Parliament in Scotland. The Minister mentioned the importance to his Department and to the yet-to-be-formed Public Accounts Committee of the Assembly’s getting value for money. Does he agree that, in line with the Westminster convention, the Chairperson of the Public Accounts Committee should come from a party other than the four that make up the Government? Prior to devolution an Ad Hoc Committee was established to consider the sale of the port of Belfast. Does the Minister agree that it would be worthwhile debating the report that was tabled by that Committee to enable the matter to be progressed as quickly as possible?

Mark Durkan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

Issues to do with the sale of the port of Belfast are the responsibility of the Department for Regional Development. As I said in response to an earlier question, it is not for me to say what should or should not happen following publication of the report of the Ad Hoc Committee or any other measures that are being explored. Let us be clear about this: my Department’s interest in the sale of the port of Belfast relates solely to securing the £70 million that was factored into the spending plans for last year. We would like to be able to secure that £70 million this year. How such a sale is to be achieved is a matter for the Department for Regional Development. It will also be considered by the Executive Committee, so it would be wrong for me to speak out of turn about specific favoured options.

I fully appreciate the point that Mr Neeson made about the chairmanship of the Public Accounts Committee. I made a similar point during the agreement negotiations, and during consideration of the Northern Ireland Bill — the Bill that was to give legislative effect to the agreement — my party and I pointed out to the Northern Ireland Office that Westminster convention should be followed when this appointment was being made. Provision for that was not included in the legislation. Perhaps people thought that, in the circumstances, it would have pointed towards a particular Member’s being given that role. I do not know. However, I understand and sympathise with the Member’s point.

Tax-raising powers were not in the agreement that we negotiated. However, we should be careful about what we ask for in that regard. Would having an Assembly on the Scottish model, with tax-raising powers, necessarily be in our best interests? First, given the size of our income-tax base, would it yield the significant amount of money that people think it would? Secondly, if the Assembly had that power would the Treasury not treat us as though we were using it, whether we were or not, simply because we could?

We could find ourselves very quickly having a new experience with the Treasury. Many of us, from all parties, have often had arguments with the Treasury over additionality. If we got tax-raising powers, we might find ourselves dealing with the Treasury on a new concept of subtractionality.

Billy Hutchinson (PUP, Belfast North)

I have a question about the sale of the harbour even though Mr Leslie, a Member for North Antrim, has already addressed the subject. This idea was floated by a Tory Government, and then a Labour Government was elected and tried to pursue it. Mr Durkan appears to agree with the idea because, in speaking about the sale of the harbour he said

"The spending plans for 2000-01 do not yet include the expenditure which had to be deferred from 1999-2000 as a result of the delay in the sale of Belfast Harbour."

That statement made the assumption that the Assembly has already agreed to the sale. We have been threatened by the Tory Party and by Lord Dubs. Neither is accountable to the Assembly, but the Minister is. We have had 30 years of people like them threatening us and telling us what we should do, and now we have one of our own Ministers telling us that we have to sell the harbour, or at least implying as much. He further stated

"If the sale does proceed, it will be possible to go ahead with action on the key projects which were held up this year."

Again we are being told that if we do not sell the harbour we cannot proceed with the key projects. Let us look at where these key projects are. With the exception of the Westlink, they are mostly outside Belfast, yet we are talking about selling Belfast harbour to pay for them. Belfast harbour is a jewel in the Assembly’s crown, and there is not another Government in the world that would sell land of that sort. We have had the report from the Ad Hoc Committee —

John (Speaker, Belfast East)

May I encourage the Member to ask a question. This is not a debate.

Billy Hutchinson (PUP, Belfast North)

I know that it is not a debate. I am coming to the question, but I want to ensure that people understand why I am asking it.

Can the Minister tell us why he said this and why he is going down the same road as Lord Dubs and not allowing the Assembly to put forward other ideas for raising money? The £70 million that the Labour Government said we were short of has, all of a sudden, appeared. These key projects could be done, but there should be other ways of raising the money, and the Assembly has not had an opportunity to explore them.

Mark Durkan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

First, I should point out to the Member that, as I made clear, I was presenting this Budget on behalf of the Executive Committee. I am not imposing the sale of Belfast harbour on the Assembly or on anybody else.

We are dealing with a Budget that is based on the spending plans that we inherited, and those spending plans were predicated on certain key projects, including receipts from the sale of Belfast harbour. If we do not sell Belfast harbour, for whatever reason, those receipts, which were factored into the plan, will clearly be lost to us. The money that we would have raised will have to be removed from the plan or made good in some other way. If we accept that we are dealing with a permanent loss of £70 million, we will have to cut other things to pay for projects that were to have been resourced from that sum.

Mr Leslie asked about other funding sources. We shall have to look for other funding sources for various projects anyway.

The Member referred to the fact that an Ad Hoc Committee of the Assembly did meet to consider the subject. This was a cross-party Committee. It explored the issues and, in its report, favoured a scheme for the sale of the port. Let us be clear that while that report has not been adopted or endorsed by the Assembly, it is not a question of the Minister of Finance and Personnel or the Minister for Regional Development trying to impose this on anybody on a go-it-alone basis or of trying to hold anybody to ransom.

The Ad Hoc Committee has looked at the issue and has been able to explore the various options that the Member seems to be touching on. It is a little disappointing to hear some of the arguments presented here today. It has been suggested that I am going down Lord Dubs’s road — as if the Department of Finance and Personnel and I were imposing on the Assembly things which a cross-party Committee had considered and explored.

Jane Morrice (NIWC, North Down)

I have many questions, but I will restrict myself to allow others to come in.

First, I must express some disappointment that certain areas are not covered in the Budget. I do not see any mention whatsoever of the victims of the past 30 years. Will the Minister indicate the amount of money which will be put into a fund for victims this year and next year? Will he also say how it is to be spent?

Secondly — and this is a vital point — we have seen an increase in terror on our roads. There is a huge public outcry for road safety because of the number of people, particularly children, being killed. In the Budget, £4 million, which is not to be increased in the next financial year, has been allocated for road safety, while £142 million, which is to be increased to £163 million, is allocated for roads. Four million pounds is far too small an amount given the number of people being killed.

Can the Minister explain why more money has not been provided for road safety?

Mark Durkan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

The Member may recall that in yesterday’s discussions her Colleague Prof McWilliams asked why victims were listed as a responsibility of the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister although Adam Ingram, the Northern Ireland Office Minister, has responsibility for victims and the victims’ fund. The fact is that the dedicated expenditure for victims is a responsibility of the Northern Ireland Office, as Prof McWilliams indicated yesterday, and not of the Assembly.

It is for the Office of the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister to ensure that due consideration is given to the needs and concerns of victims under the devolved arrangements and that the policies and programmes which bring Departments into contact with victims are sufficiently and properly sensitised to their needs. We do not have a dedicated victims’ fund. The dedicated victims’ fund is under the jurisdiction of the Northern Ireland Office.

The Member also asked about road safety and mentioned the amounts spent on roads and road safety. The amount of money which is allocated to road safety is an issue that will have to be considered, but in many cases money is spent on roads to remove accident black spots and to deal with clear road safety questions. A false economy could be made by favouring road safety above roads. Road safety, under the new arrangements, is a matter for the Department of the Environment.

The thinking behind the creation of the new public safety arm within the Department of Health, Social Services and Public Safety was that it would take a greater overview of the responsibilities of all the Departments on safety — and that includes road safety.

Billy Bell (UUP, Lagan Valley)

As someone who takes an interest in local government affairs I was interested in the Minister’s reference to the regional rate. He said

"We will need to review the regional rate as part of our work on the programme of government, but for the year immediately ahead the Executive Committee has decided to roll forward the plans we inherited. This will mean increases of 8% in the domestic regional rate and of 5.3% in the non-domestic rate."

Is there an implication that he intends next year to have a reduction in the regional rate? Or does he intend to use the regional rate to compensate for our lack of tax-raising powers?

Mark Durkan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

There was no such implication. We will have to look at the whole rating structure, but, as the Member will appreciate, the area of rates is rather like quicksand once you get into it. We need to look at both the regional rate and the district rate, and, from my experience in local government, I realise how difficult district councillors find the interaction between the two. In many ways councils end up carrying the blame for the regional rate as well as for the district rate. Maybe that will change since we will have to take the blame for the regional rate from today. That may ease the concerns of councillors in that they will have somebody more obvious to point to.

The future of the rates will have to be addressed. I do not pretend that the programme for government is going to give the answer to that. However, it will probably create the context in which we explore the rating structure and our reliance on it for revenue. There will have to be various changes in rating policy, and they will include our having to conform with the worldwide trend of basing rates on capital value rather than on rental value, or whatever. A number of issues need to be explored, but they will all have to be dealt with in the round if we are going to come up with anything coherent. People in a neighbouring jurisdiction abolished rates and thought that that would be great, and others have tried to reform them, so we know that if we approach this on a partial or ad hoc basis, we will end up creating more problems than we solve.

Joe Byrne (Social Democratic and Labour Party, West Tyrone)

It is great to see a local Minister presenting the Budget. How does he anticipate the regional economy’s being reshaped to face the financial challenge ahead on the management of public finances? We know that the subvention will not grow in the future.

Does the Minister accept that the new programme for government over the next three to five years must be radical in how it tackles the task of making this region more self-sustaining and productive in the medium to long term?

Mark Durkan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

The Member touched on the importance of the programme of government — something that I emphasised in my speech. So far as I am concerned, future Budgets will be informed and influenced by the programme of government as agreed by the Executive and in consultation with, and with input from, the Committees. A programme of government which is developed on that inclusive basis, on which everyone has influence and input, will be qualitatively different from the public-policy and public-service management schemes that were in place before. We will have to make hard choices. We will have to start getting used to the concept of priorities. At times, indeed, we will have the hard task of reducing a number of priorities to one. As a great socialist leader once said,

"Priorities should be the language of politics, and it should truly be spoken in the singular."

This is something we have to get used to and we will do so in a way which will ensure that, as public representatives, we will not only make a positive contribution to reshaping society but enable all sections of the community to do likewise as well. They will be allowed to play their part, to fulfil their prospects and their capacities, in the private sector, where we will become more competitive, productive and less reliant on the public sector, and in the voluntary and community sector as well. Within that sector people will be able to solve many of the difficulties that we have had to contend with over the last 30 years and ensure that the voluntary and community sector moves towards the much more important and productive work of developing the social economy.

In taking on these new responsibilities and coming to terms with them, we will not just be left with hard choices and cold financial management decisions; we will have an opportunity to create new, radical public-policy initiatives, and both the private-sector and the public-sector economies will be healthier as a result.

Sammy Wilson (DUP, Belfast East)

May I sympathise with the Minister, who has been given the title "the Judas Iscariot of the Executive". I refer, of course, to the fact that he was the treasurer for the 12 disciples and held the bag. He will have to hold on to the bag very tightly, given some of the things we have heard.

The First Minister has given a commitment to his party in respect of the additional Departments. They agreed to the formation of 10 Departments, conditional on their cost being neutral over the lifetime of the Assembly. What progress has been made in the Budget for next year to move towards that neutrality of cost?

The Minister said that there would have to be very careful management on the parts of all Ministers to ensure that spending matched the resources available. Has he conveyed that message to the Minister of Education, who, although he might look like Art Garfunkel, is sounding more like Abba singing ‘Money, Money, Money’? Last week, in the space of two days, he promised to spend money on rural schools, on Irish schools, on integrated schools, on capital funding and on abolishing the 11-plus. Will the additional £87 million that the Department of Education will have next year fund all of that, or will the Minister be sent on a basic adult-education course to learn how to count?

Mark Durkan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

Regarding the additional costs of the new departmental structures, a commitment was given that we would try to neutralize those costs over the lifetime of the first Assembly. That commitment was not just given by the First Minister to his party; it is one that we gave to the Assembly. We cannot do that with next year’s Budget as we intend to go ahead with the plans that we inherited, which divide the money among the new Departments.

In accommodating the costs of the new structures — the new Departments, the North/South institutions, and so on — the Assembly has ensured that those costs will not affect the budgeted programmes for next year under the comprehensive spending review. That should be understood and appreciated. How we achieve neutralisation and, indeed, greater efficiency and effectiveness in our administrative structures or programme systems will have to be worked out in the programme of government. We will be undertaking that work in the context of the next Treasury review, which will be informed by the whole shift to resource budgeting.

We will be approaching many things from a different angle, and I hope we will be able to achieve savings that will go further than the target of neutralising the extra costs. It would be wrong for me to go any further at this stage, as I am only one Minister in an Executive which will be carrying out the wider review.

Sammy Wilson referred to my remarks about the Budget for the remainder of this year. Is the Minister of Education aware of that? Yes, he is. Our approach to the rest of this year’s Budget and next year’s was agreed by all the Ministers in the Executive Committee. It will be very difficult for Ministers to manage this, and I hope that all Committee members — even Rottweilers or any other kind of beast — as they deal with Ministers and contribute in their Committees, will appreciate that. It should also be appreciated that the amount allocated to the Department of Education for next year, which Mr Wilson referred to when he talked about the Education Minister’s running around making promises that extra money would be put into schools, includes an extra £22 million for the schools capital programme. That is provided for in the Budget.

Gerry McHugh (Sinn Féin, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

A Chathaoirligh, I welcome the Minister’s speech. It is rather unsatisfactory that I received a copy of the public expenditure plans just this morning and have had very little time to look at them.

My question concerns the flexibility of this year’s Budget and how much movement is possible within it. Probably very little. How much room for manoeuvre is there in an economic plan for the North, and to what extent is the west being considered in comparison with everywhere else? Any action that is taken will be within the terms of the present plan, which has not been finalised — there is still some room for consultation over the ‘Shaping our Future’ document. However, I am concerned that the west may not be looked after. That document points to major development along the main transport corridors, and much of the housing is directed towards Craigavon and areas around Belfast. It seems that people are shifting from rural areas to the larger towns, and this will not help us to get small businesses in rural areas.

I am worried that we will be bound in with this plan for the next 25 years, that we will not be able to move away from it and that it will in some way be able to limit any plans developed by the Assembly. Is there flexibility in the present Budget to do something about these matters in the rural areas? Does the Minister look forward to having something in place so that the area west of the Bann will be looked after?

I welcome the cross-border institutions, the all-Ireland institutions and those issues in ‘Shaping Our Future’ that dovetail with the national development plan for the South, whose economic plan will not be available for another two years.

John (Speaker, Belfast East)

Order. Perhaps the Member would ask his question. He should not be making a speech.

Gerry McHugh (Sinn Féin, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

I want to know what flexibility there is within the Budget constraints and what the Minister sees in the plan for the west of the Bann next year?

Mark Durkan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

I thank the Member for his many points and questions.

Flexibility in the Budget will come about only if there is very strict discipline in its management. If we run the Budget tightly we may get easements which will give us some flexibility.

The Member said that the Budget and the statement were available only this morning. That is not unusual with exercises of this type. The Budget was finally agreed in the Executive Committee only yesterday, and work still had to be done on some of the figures. Information has been provided in as timely a fashion as possible, but I appreciate the Member’s concern.

I will be meeting with the Finance and Personnel Committee this afternoon to discuss many of these issues. All the Committees will be able to look at their respective programmes and allocations, and we will provide more detailed figures for them. This is not a hit-and-run Budget that everybody is stuck with. There will be consultation, input and scrutiny, but we will have to make final decisions early in the New Year, as Departments need to be able to deal with their secondary and end budgets, so that they can plan for next year.

In terms of the geographic balance, the Member referred to ‘Shaping Our Future’, which appeared to dovetail with the national development plan in the South. That is probably so on a variety of levels.

The Member appeared to criticise some of the measures covered in the Budget in terms of their locations. Measures to deal with locations across Northern Ireland are also compatible with ‘Shaping Our Future’, so we cannot say that we like the document at one level but that we should not abide by it at another.

I am sympathetic to the Member’s point about the west. This is a natural reaction — I come from there. I have taken a Pledge of Office which obliges me to serve all the people of Northern Ireland equally, and I am determined to uphold that pledge. With regard to future Budgets, we need to make sure that public-spending plans, the development of public policy and the management of public services are informed by the twin ethics of quality and equality. In the programme of government we must find more ways of enabling us to ensure that people can see quality and equality at the forefront of all plans, including those for public expenditure, and in their outcomes.

As an Assembly we will have to address the concept of resource budgeting and its focus on outcomes. As I said last week to the Finance and Personnel Committee, resource budgeting should be tailored to our needs rather than dealt with on a hand-me-down basis from the Assembly. So when we are focusing on the outcome requirements of resource accounting and budgeting we must factor in equality considerations as well and give appropriate weightings to them. We must work on this issue in the longer term, not just in the context of the programme of government but throughout the working of the Assembly itself.

Esmond Birnie (UUP, Belfast South)

I congratulate the Finance Minister on his first Budget. It was commendably concise — not of Gladstonian proportions. Indeed, Members will not have to tear it up, unlike Mr McCreevy’s recent productions in Dublin.

At the end of page 5 of the report the Minister speaks of ongoing consultation with regard to the European Union funds. As a party we agree about the value of that, and almost all Members would stress its importance.

Can the Minister outline what lessons have been learned from the experience of the European structural fund rounds of 1989-93 and 1994-99 which will be taken forward to inform the new round of funding between next year and the year 2006?

Secondly, the Minister refers — again at the end of page 5 — to the peace programme as a unique scheme. I assume that that is partly a reference to the additionality aspect of funding, so I would like to know what lessons have been learned from the previous special programme for peace and reconciliation and, in particular, about the sustainability of funded projects, which will be taken forward to the new round of funding next year.

Mark Durkan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

First, in relation to the structural funds, we must continue consultation on the proposals for making the best use of them. Because of time and process requirements the Secretary of State had already submitted a plan to Brussels prior to devolution.

I am quite clear, as is my Department, that the plan is necessarily flexible and is structured in such a way as to allow the new institutions sufficient latitude to ensure that the precise balance of the programme is well informed by our particular priorities and by the needs we are trying to serve.

Of course, we will have to ensure that we take account of the EU’s requirements. It will have its own particular requirements with regard to the balance of that programme. The money is not ours to use as we wish; we will have to use it in accordance with the programme priorities of the European Union.

With regard to building on the lessons learned from previous programmes, that has, to a degree, already been taken account of in the submitted plan. Some people argue that one plan is too much like the other. That is one of the reasons why we are being so protective of the whole concept of flexibility.

Dr Birnie was correct about the peace programme. The finance is additional, and that very fact makes it unique. That does not mean that it is money to be frittered away, and we do not treat it as a feel-good fund. We are concerned about the concept of sustainability. With regard to the peace programme, we are trying to ensure that we balance the regeneration and reconciliation needs in ways that are sustainable and effective. We want regeneration and reconciliation to move together, almost like a piston driving an engine forward. This is the approach we intend to take. It is not a matter of economic development versus social inclusion; rather it is a matter of economic development and social inclusion working together to bring reconciliation and regeneration to those areas that can best capitalise on such benefits. We understand that social inclusion does not happen on its own and that it is a feature of economic inclusion.

Therefore, to ensure sustainable social inclusion we must have programmes which help to sustain ongoing economic inclusion. We will have to try to achieve that balance. It will not be an easy task. The social partners have different pressures and priorities, and there is also the very important perspective of local government and its role.

We shall have to try to manage the existing flexibility in the structural fund plan and the peace programme in ways that meet the competing preferences and priorities of different interests, and we will have to do that over the coming months.

William McCrea (DUP, Mid Ulster)

In his response to an earlier question, the Minister referred to the £8 million cost of the North/South Ministerial Council’s implementation bodies. The impression given was that that was the complete cost. Is the Minister referring to the cost to the Assembly, which is only a portion of the total cost since the Dáil has to provide a similar amount?

Why should the urgent infrastructure connections, which have been neglected by Governments for many years, be linked to the sale of the port of Belfast? If those finances are not available and realised, will the Member, as the Minister of Finance and Personnel, attempt to direct savings from the Assembly’s block funding to fill the gap? The people west of the Bann cannot be put at any further disadvantage.

Will the Minister press the Chancellor of the Exchequer of the United Kingdom for agreement that road tax should be directed towards roads instead of into the coffers of the Exchequer?

Mark Durkan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

First, with regard to the North/South bodies, the figure before the Assembly is the cost of our programme. It might be helpful to make the point that our cost for these bodies is £8.2 million. The cost for the Republic of Ireland is £25 million. That is a ratio of about 3:1. I indicated that we were not paying more than our fair share. Let us remember that there are also economic and service benefits to be derived from these bodies. I hope that there will also be savings as a result of co-operation in wider areas.

Secondly, we have inherited plans that provide for some key infrastructural projects to be undertaken based on the receipts from the sale of the port of Belfast. For the time being we are dealing with those inherited plans.

For the programme of government we will have to plan on a different basis. This planning will be a lot easier, and we will have more leeway and more scope for creativity if we already have the receipts for Belfast harbour and can proceed with that work.

John (Speaker, Belfast East)

Will the Minister bring his remarks to a close, as the time is up.

Mark Durkan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

The Member has a preference for certain infrastructural projects. Given where I come from, I sympathise with his preference with regard to where money should be spent. Perhaps he could address the Minister for Regional Development in that respect.

James Leslie (UUP, North Antrim)

On a point of order, Mr Speaker. In what circumstances do you propose to take supplementary questions?

John (Speaker, Belfast East)

Supplementary questions are normally allowed after questions to Ministers. These are not questions to Ministers. This is a statement to the House, which may be responded to with questions. No supplementaries are permitted. The Executive has agreed with Standing Orders which insist that there shall be questions to Ministers between 2.30 pm and 4.00 pm on Mondays.

The Executive Committee has agreed with us a rota of Ministers who will be available for those questions. The first set of questions will be on Monday 17 January 2000. During Question Time three Ministers will be available to answer questions for approximately 30 minutes each.

That is the context for questions to Ministers, and an element of supplementary questioning will be possible when oral questions are set down in advance. Members must send their questions to the relevant Departments in advance. There is a timetable for Members on the Assembly’s Internet site.

Mark Durkan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

There is a reading error which I need to correct. I gave a figure of £360,000 for the Civic Forum. That should be £300,000.

Points of Order

Roger Hutchinson (DUP, East Antrim)

On a point of order, Mr Speaker. Are you aware that the Sinn Féin/IRA Members are using the Irish version of "MLA", which is "TD"? Is this proper? If not, will you please ask them to desist. If it is in order, will you please inform the House what the Ulster-Scots version of "MLA" is.

John (Speaker, Belfast East)

The only authorised designation is "MLA" — "Member of the Legislative Assembly". That, of course, does not mean that Members may not describe themselves in another way. Members often describe themselves — and even more frequently other Members — in all sorts of ways. [Laughter] These may be authoritative and even accurate, but they are not authorised by the Standing Orders.

I am, I regret to say, neither a student of nor in any way familiar with the Irish language or even Ulster-Scots. However, seeing that these matters were being raised in the press, I looked into them a little. I cannot offer an authorised version, as it were. However, my understanding is that were this a Parliament duly recognised and described as such, the term "Teachta Dála", abbreviated to "TD", would be appropriate.

However — and the Minister referred earlier to the negotiations and what went on there — all Members are aware that such matters were part of the negotiations. The decision was made that this would be described as an Assembly, not as a Parliament. Therefore, as I understand it, the term "Teachta Dála" would not be appropriate. This is a legislative assembly, and its Members are described as MLAs, as, in many cases, are the Members of the provincial Assemblies in Canada and the state Assemblies in Australia.

So far as any abbreviations are concerned, I understand that for "Member of the Legislative Assembly" the term "Teachta" would be quite appropriate. This has come to be the term used, I understand, for a political representative — a Member of an Assembly. The word that is used to describe this Assembly in the Irish version of the agreement is "Tionól", not "Dáil". Since this is a legislative Assembly, I understand, the word "Reachtach" would be appropriate to describe "legislative". It would be "Teachta den Tionól Reachtach" or "TTR". There is little doubt that there are other variations. I do not claim to speak with great authority. I understand, for example, that the word "Comhalta" rather than "Teachta" would be an appropriate translation of "Member".

With regard to Ulster-Scots, I understand that a reasonable translation of "Member of the Legislative Assembly " would be "Laa-makin Forgaitherer" — "LMF". If one regards "laa-makin" as a hyphenated term, "LF" would be appropriate.

These are my best endeavours. I trust that they will provide some guidance to Members. Having said that, perhaps I may proceed to the appointment of the Heid-yins and Deputy Heid-yins of the Committees. [Laughter]

Roger Hutchinson (DUP, East Antrim)

On a point of order, Mr Speaker. I simply asked whether this was right or wrong.

John (Speaker, Belfast East)

As the Minister of Finance and Personnel advised earlier, one must be very careful what one asks for. One sometimes gets it. [Laughter]

Danny Kennedy (UUP, Newry and Armagh)

Mr Speaker, it may have escaped your notice that, in the course of your eloquence, the Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure left the Chamber.

John (Speaker, Belfast East)

As a member of his party, you can say that. I could not possibly comment. We will proceed to the running of the d’Hondt procedure for the —

David Ford (Alliance, South Antrim)

Reference has been made to the issue of having an independent Chair of the Public Accounts Committee. Indeed, the Minister of Finance and Personnel agreed with that point. Can you confirm, Mr Speaker, that if the nominating officers of the four larger parties so wished they could decline to nominate, even if that were the only post remaining? Are they obliged to make a nomination if they wish that post to be independent?

John (Speaker, Belfast East)

They are not obliged to make a nomination. If they do make a nomination, it has to be a member of their own party. In the case of the Public Accounts Committee, unlike some of the others, that person cannot be a member of the party to which the Minister of Finance and Personnel belongs.

Peter Robinson (DUP, Belfast East)

On a point of order, Mr Speaker. If each nominating officer declined to nominate for a position, would it eventually come to the nominating officer of one of the totally oppositional parties? My party would be prepared to leave that position free if the other nominating officers were prepared to give an undertaking to do likewise.

John (Speaker, Belfast East)

I can respond only on the point of procedure. If nominations had not been made when the 15-minute allowance expired, the eventuality that the Member describes would come to pass. However, it is not for me nor for Members to engage in debate on this matter. Procedurally, what the Member says is correct.

Gerry Adams (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

On a point of order, Mr Speaker. What is a totally oppositional party?

John (Speaker, Belfast East)

That is a very good question. There all sorts of ways in which the words "totally oppositional" might be applied in this context. I took it that the Member was referring to parties that were not in the Executive, though I may have been mistaken.

David Ervine (PUP, Belfast East)

Further to that point of order, Mr Speaker. Perhaps you could add "and not in receipt of any patronage from the Government or any of the four Government parties".

Gerry Adams (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

Further to the point of order, Mr Speaker. Do you agree that the DUP’s relationship is not so much totally oppositional as semi-detached?

John (Speaker, Belfast East)

I am not sure how to address either of those two points of order. It would not be wise for me to comment on either of them, for they are not points of procedural order. They may be points of political order, but that is another matter.

Assembly: Standing Committees

John (Speaker, Belfast East)

I am now required to supervise the appointment of a Chairperson and Deputy Chairperson to each Standing Committee. I remind Members of the requirements that are set out in Standing Orders. I shall ask the nominating officer of each political party, in the order required by the formula contained in Standing Orders, to select an available Standing Committee and nominate a person who is a member of his party and of the Assembly to be its Chairman or deputy Chairman.

I have already referred to the requirement that the Chairman and Deputy Chairman of the Public Accounts Committee shall not be members of the same party as the Minister of Finance and Personnel. Nominating Officers shall not prefer, for chairmanship or deputy chairmanship, a Committee in which they have an interest, which is defined as their party having a Minister in charge of the topic to which it relates.

The phrase "shall not prefer" does not mean that this cannot happen; it just means that they shall not prefer it at the early stage of d’Hondt. One could find — for example, at a late stage of d’Hondt — that such choices were not available. As there was some uncertainty among Members in a previous running of d’Hondt, I should tell the House that it is possible that a party might have to prefer a deputy chairmanship to a chairmanship. The d’Hondt procedure combines chairmanships and deputy chairmanships simply to remain within the "shall not prefer" rule. It does not mean that parties will miss out on anything.

There have been two changes of nominating officer owing to the absence of previous nominating officers. Mrs Gerry Cosgrove has advised me that Mr McGrady is the nominating officer for the SDLP in this procedure. Dr Paisley has advised me that Mr Peter Robinson is the nominating officer for the DUP at this time.

The timing for nominations is now 15 minutes. In the Initial Standing Orders it was five minutes, but nominating officers could ask for a break of 15 minutes. I assume that when the Standing Orders Committee considered the matter it put in the 15 minutes to ensure that there would be no need to have repeated requests for suspensions of 15 minutes and that Members might be able to consult. Under the new Standing Orders, that is the position in any case. If the 15 minutes were to elapse, whether in the circumstance referred to by Mr Ford or in any other, I would be required to address the nominating officer next in line.

12.00

There are three matters that nominating officers must bear in mind. A Minister or junior Minister may not be the Chairman or Deputy Chairman of a Standing Committee. No Member may be nominated to serve as a Chairman or Deputy Chairman of a Standing Committee if he is the Chairman or Deputy Chairman of another Committee, including a Statutory Departmental Committee. In making nominations, nominating officers shall prefer Committees in which they do not have a party interest, as I have explained.

I call Mr Trimble, as the nominating officer of the political party for which the formula laid down in Standing Orders gives the highest figure, to select a Standing Committee from the five available and to nominate a person who is a member of his party and of the Assembly to be Chairman or Deputy Chairman of it.

David Trimble (UUP, Upper Bann)

I select the Public Accounts Committee and nominate as its Chairman Mr Billy Bell.

John (Speaker, Belfast East)

Is the Member who has been nominated willing to take up the office for which he has been nominated?

Billy Bell (UUP, Lagan Valley)

I am.

John (Speaker, Belfast East)

I therefore announce the appointment of Mr Billy Bell as Chairman of the Public Accounts Committee.

I call Mr McGrady, as the nominating officer of the political party for which the formula laid down in Standing Orders gives the next highest figure, to select an available Standing Committee and to nominate a person who is a member of his party and of the Assembly to be Chairman or Deputy Chairman of it.

Eddie McGrady (Social Democratic and Labour Party, South Down)

I nominate Mr Donovan McClelland for the Chair of the Committee on Standards and Privileges.

John (Speaker, Belfast East)

Is the Member who has been nominated willing to take up the office for which he has been nominated?

Donovan McClelland (Social Democratic and Labour Party, South Antrim)

I am.

John (Speaker, Belfast East)

I therefore announce the appointment of Mr Donovan McClelland as Chairman of the Standards and Privileges Committee.

I call Mr Peter Robinson, as the nominating officer of the political party for which the formula laid down in Standing Orders gives the next highest figure, to select an available Standing Committee and to nominate a person who is a member of his party and of the Assembly to be Chairman or Deputy Chairman of it.

Peter Robinson (DUP, Belfast East)

As you might expect, Mr Speaker, I select the Committee of the Centre and nominate as its Chairman Mr Gregory Campbell.

John (Speaker, Belfast East)

Is the Member who has been nominated willing to take up the office for which he has been nominated?

Gregory Campbell (DUP, East Londonderry)

I am definitely willing.

John (Speaker, Belfast East)

I therefore announce the appointment of Mr Gregory Campbell as Chairman of the Committee of the Centre.

I call Mr McLaughlin, as the nominating officer of the political party for which the formula laid down in Standing Orders gives the next highest figure, to select an available Standing Committee and to nominate a person who is a member of his party and of the Assembly to be Chairman or Deputy Chairman of it.

Mitchel McLaughlin (Sinn Féin, Foyle)

Go raibh maith agat, a Chathaoirligh. I select the Procedures Committee and nominate Mr Conor Murphy as its Chairperson. Go raibh míle maith agat.

John (Speaker, Belfast East)

Is the Member who has been nominated willing to take up the office for which he has been nominated?

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

Glacaim leis an oifig sin, a Chathaoirligh. I am.

John (Speaker, Belfast East)

I therefore announce the appointment of Mr Conor Murphy as Chairman of the Procedures Committee.

I call Mr Trimble, as the nominating officer of the political party for which the formula laid down in Standing Orders gives the next highest figure, to select an available Standing Committee and to nominate a person who is a member of his party and of the Assembly to be Chairman or Deputy Chairman of it.

David Trimble (UUP, Upper Bann)

I select the Procedures Committee and nominate Mr Dalton as its Deputy Chairman.

John (Speaker, Belfast East)

Is the Member who has been nominated willing to take up the office for which he has been nominated?

Duncan Dalton (UUP, South Antrim)

I am.

John (Speaker, Belfast East)

I therefore announce the appointment of Mr Duncan Shipley Dalton as Deputy Chairman of the Procedures Committee.

I call Mr McGrady, as the nominating officer of the political party for which the formula laid down in Standing Orders gives the next highest figure, to select an available Standing Committee and to nominate a person who is a member of his party and of the Assembly to be Chairman or Deputy Chairman of it.

Eddie McGrady (Social Democratic and Labour Party, South Down)

I select the Audit Committee and nominate Mr John Dallat to be its Chairperson.

John (Speaker, Belfast East)

Is the Member who has been nominated willing to take up the office for which he has been nominated?

John Dallat (Social Democratic and Labour Party, East Londonderry)

I am.

John (Speaker, Belfast East)

I therefore announce the appointment of Mr John Dallat as Chairman of the Audit Committee.

I call Mr Peter Robinson, as the nominating officer of the political party for which the formula laid down in Standing Orders gives the next highest figure, to select an available Standing Committee and to nominate a person who is a member of his party and of the Assembly to be Deputy Chairman of it.

Peter Robinson (DUP, Belfast East)

I ask for a suspension of 15 minutes.

John (Speaker, Belfast East)

There is no need for a suspension. You have 15 minutes in which to make your nomination.

Peter Robinson (DUP, Belfast East)

I select the Committee of the Centre and nominate Mr Oliver Gibson as the Deputy Chairman.

John (Speaker, Belfast East)

Is the Member who has been nominated willing to take up the office for which he has been nominated?

Oliver Gibson (DUP, West Tyrone)

I am.

John (Speaker, Belfast East)

I therefore announce the appointment of Mr Oliver Gibson as the Deputy Chairman of the Committee of the Centre.

I call Mr Trimble, as the nominating officer of the political party for which the formula laid down in Standing Orders gives the next highest figure, to select an available Standing Committee and to nominate a person who is a member of his party and of the Assembly to be Deputy Chairman of it.

David Trimble (UUP, Upper Bann)

I select the Committee on Standards and Privileges and nominate Mr Roy Beggs.

John (Speaker, Belfast East)

Is the Member who has been nominated willing to take up the office for which he has been nominated?

Roy Beggs (UUP, East Antrim)

I am willing to serve in that capacity.

John (Speaker, Belfast East)

I therefore announce the appointment of Mr Roy Beggs as the Deputy Chairman of the Committee on Standards and Privileges.

I call Mr Mitchel McLaughlin, as the nominating officer of the political party for which the formula laid down in Standing Orders gives the next highest figure, to select an available Standing Committee and to nominate a person who is a member of his party and of the Assembly to be Deputy Chairman of it.

Mitchel McLaughlin (Sinn Féin, Foyle)

Go raibh maith agat, a Chathaoirligh. I select the Public Accounts Committee and nominate Ms Sue Ramsey. Go raibh míle maith agat.

John (Speaker, Belfast East)

Is the Member who has been nominated willing to take up the office for which she has been nominated?

Sue Ramsey (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

I am, a Chathaoirligh.

John (Speaker, Belfast East)

I therefore announce the appointment of Ms Sue Ramsey as Deputy Chairman of the Public Accounts Committee.

I call Mr McGrady, as the nominating officer of the political party for which the formula laid down in the Standing Orders gives the next highest figure, to select the last available Standing Committee and to nominate a person who is a member of his party and of the Assembly to be Deputy Chairman of it.

Eddie McGrady (Social Democratic and Labour Party, South Down)

I select the Audit Committee and nominate Mr Alban Maginness.

John (Speaker, Belfast East)

Is the Member who has been nominated willing to take up the office for which he has been nominated?

Alban Maginness (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast North)

I am willing.

John (Speaker, Belfast East)

I therefore announce the appointment of Mr Alban Maginness as Deputy Chairman of the Audit Committee.

That completes the nomination and appointment of the Chairmen and Deputy Chairmen of the relevant Standing Committees.

Allowances to Assembly Members and Office Holders Bill: Second Stage

John Fee (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Newry and Armagh)

I beg to move

That the Second Stage of the Allowances to Members of the Assembly and Office Holders Bill (NIA 2/99) be agreed.

Contrary to the rumours, the lectern was not moved further back so that it would be nearer the exit door. I am sorry that we could not delay the Second Stage of this Bill until after lunch, for there would be less chance then of my being eaten alive.

The Assembly Commission, under the Northern Ireland Act, is charged with making the provisions and providing the property, resources and services for the Assembly. As Members may recall, in February the Assembly unanimously agreed the recommendations of the Senior Salaries Review Body (SSRB).

I hope that Members have had a look at the Bill and at the explanatory note, which gives an accurate, layman’s version of the measure. I do not intend going into great detail; I will simply give the background to some of the provisions.

The Bill does four things. Essentially it enacts the recommendations of the SSRB. Clause 1, for example, enacts recommendation 25 of the SSRB’s report, which was that a resettlement grant be payable in respect of continuous service in the applicable body to any Member of the Scottish Parliament, the National Assembly for Wales or the Northern Ireland Assembly who, at a general election to that body, does not stand for re-election or who stands but is not re-elected.

It was further recommended that the formula used at Westminster to calculate the level of grants be adopted for each of the devolved bodies. Subsections (1) to (4) of clause 1 enact that recommendation, and schedule 1 puts in place the formula used at Westminster.

Clause 2, subsections (1) to (4), enacts recommendation 26 of the SSRB report, and clause 3, subsections (1) to (4), enacts recommendation 27. The recommendation on winding-up allowances, at paragraph 66 of the report, is similarly enacted in clause 4. [Interruption]

John (Speaker, Belfast East)

Order. May I ask Members to keep their conversation to a minimum in deference to the Member who is presenting.

John Fee (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Newry and Armagh)

These are very simple allowances that reflect exactly what is available at Westminster, where there is provision to enable payments to be made to Members who do not get re-elected or who may have to retire because ill health prevents them from performing their duties. The winding-up allowance enables bills for winding up a constituency or other legitimate office to be paid if a Member fails to be re-elected.

I am aware that this is a Second Stage debate and that that is not the same as a determination or a ministerial statement. While I am happy to answer questions, the precise details of this Bill will be dealt with, clause by clause, subsection by subsection, line by line, when it is remitted to the Committee stage and sent to the Finance Committee. There will be an opportunity then to go through it in great detail.

Alex Maskey (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

A Chathaoirligh, I do not want to make many points. While there is a clear need, in principle, for provision for some sort of sickness benefit or redundancy package — we have responsibility in that regard — there are some matters in the proposed legislation that I am concerned about. I want to put it on record that I am not entirely satisfied with everything in the Bill as it is at present. However, my party does support the need for such a Bill and will deal with it, as Mr Fee has advised, at a later stage.

David Ervine (PUP, Belfast East)

I do not intend to speak for very long. Indeed, I am not in a very good frame of mind to speak on this issue at all. For me it connotes many things. It deals with specific issues and with circumstances which may befall people like me. Yesterday there were complaints about the little parties who managed to scrape in to be the last of the 108 Assembly Members. That does not apply to me. Neither does it apply to, for instance, the Women’s Coalition. Before the larger parties look down their noses at small parties they might like to look at how many people they had elected in fifth and sixth places — especially in sixth place.

I may yet find myself in the difficult position of not having been elected. However, what I have to say comes not from my personal feeling in respect of this issue but, rather, from my sense of anger and hurt that the degree of inclusion that was promised in the Good Friday Agreement was lost in the Northern Ireland Act — and lost totally when the carve-up began. We are talking about allowances to Members, and not only in terms of their basic salary. Some of them are or will be office holders — Ministers, junior Ministers, Committee Chairpersons, Committee Deputy Chairpersons — who will all benefit incrementally, potentially for the rest of their lives, as a result of a job being doled out to them on the basis of patronage.

Just as we were looking at the Assembly membership to see who is not in government, or in one of the jobs given out by the Government, we heard the leader of Sinn Féin ask a foolish question this morning. He asked what a totally oppositional party was. Well, in case he has not worked it out yet, and in case the DUP has not worked it out yet, let me say that it is any party within the Northern Ireland Government or Executive — call it what you will. In effect it is a Government with executive authority.

All of that brings me to the fact that John Fee, for his sins, and Robert Coulter before that and Eileen Bell before that again have had to stand here and take the flak. They certainly take the flak from the media and from the broader populace for the doling out of patronage to Assembly Members. It is a legal requirement that we deal with these issues, and I am happy to deal with them. It gives me a chance to air my serious disquiet at the attitudes emanating from the larger parties.

We have just seen it — and I am sorry if I digress a little — in respect of the nomination for the Chairmanship of the Public Accounts Committee. I cast no aspersions on the now Chairman of the Public Accounts Committee, but the larger parties should have done the honourable thing and realised that the best person to scrutinise the Government, the one able to do so most openly, would have been somebody in opposition — preferably in positive opposition, but certainly in opposition.

However, that was not to be the case. I detect that either the control freaks are at work or patronage has to be doled out. And we are about to deal with another case in point. We are about to deal with a 17-person Committee, nine members of which belong to either the UUP or the SDLP. Anybody who has done rudimentary mathematics will be able to work out that out of a 17-person Committee, nine is a majority. This again smacks of sickening control, and no doubt there will be other requests put to the Assembly to pay Chairmen and Deputy Chairmen of Committees not yet agreed to. There will be direct and severe opposition to this sort of thing — as much as two Members can muster.

What happened to the theory of public service? I understand the effort that a Minister puts in and the business of paying wages that will attract people into politics. But what about Chairmen and Deputy Chairmen and the looming spectre of paying allowances to Whips?

How far down are we prepared to take this? In my spare time I help my secretary to clean the office. Is there any chance of getting a couple of bob for that? The amount of patronage and the control-freak atmosphere — mostly among the Ulster Unionists and the SDLP — are becoming ludicrous. In relation to the Commission, Members will recollect Gerry Adams being the Pied Piper of the poor, and the DUP virtually clearing their Benches so that they would not be tainted by such a terrible issue. The Commission reached agreement by consensus, so the figures that we are debating are as much a decision by the DUP and Sinn Féin as by the Ulster Unionist Party, the SDLP and the Alliance Party.

Alex Maskey (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

I have said that I am unhappy about some issues in the legislation. We can agree the principle of legislation and argue about the details. That is the purpose of the legislation. We too are new boys on the block.

David Ervine (PUP, Belfast East)

I wish I did not have to suggest that the Member is pulling my leg. If one does not voice one’s disquiet on Second Stage, perhaps one does not have that much disquiet. The Member will feel disquiet in future over issues that are not quite so directed towards individual Members. There is consistent narking and arguing in the outside world about who gets what, where and when. We are all lumped together, and nobody will remember who was on the Commission or who made the decisions. Hansard will contain no commentary from the DUP on the issue, and the Pied Piper of the poor will have had his position written in public.

Donovan McClelland (Social Democratic and Labour Party, South Antrim)

Will the Member give way?

David Ervine (PUP, Belfast East)

In a moment. Why did Mr Adams make his public pronouncement if, as Mr Maskey says, they are new kids on the block? It was for public consumption, probably in much the same way as Mr McCartney’s remarks on the issue.

There are people here who feel aggrieved, but not because of what we are not getting. There are only two of us, and we did not expect patronage in terms of Chairs, Deputy Chairs or Ministries, but we did expect a degree of consultation and an absolute understanding, at least in terms of Committees, of proper proportionality.

The small parties are not homogeneous. We are a very broad church — perhaps more so than the Executive. However, when this 17-person Committee hits the Table today it will be offered two places for the Opposition. That is in a 17-person Committee that will oversee the work of the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister. It is meant to be a scrutiny Committee, but how many people in receipt of patronage from the First or Deputy First Minister will be scrutinising their work? I guess that nine of them, which is the majority in that Committee —

Maurice Morrow (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

I congratulate Mr Ervine on the fact that the penny has finally dropped. Nobody has done more to bolster this iniquitous situation. He and his colleague have continually lent their support to the Ulster Unionists to ensure that this system will continue. [Interruption]

David Ervine (PUP, Belfast East)

rose.

John (Speaker, Belfast East)

Order. When a Member gives way it is not possible to haul it back. That may mean that in future Members will be cautious about giving way. Anyway, at this point Mr Morrow has the Floor.

Maurice Morrow (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

It has finally dawned on Mr Ervine that he is to be discarded like a sucked orange. He was well enough informed about that long ago. He is now surplus to requirements in the Assembly, and he is learning the hard facts — too little too late.

David Ervine (PUP, Belfast East)

As the DUP is spending the £106,000 of which it took advantage from the first day of devolution it will hardly complain very loudly.

My arguments are made on the basis of the Good Friday Agreement, which supported the inclusion that there was meant to be and the consultation that such inclusion requires. The Agreement was very clear and sensible about that. I do not know if the word "shafted" is parliamentary language, but I feel that I have been shafted in a cross-community sense, and not simply by the grand democrats.

I am sorry about Mr Morrow’s intervention as it has deflected me. My Colleague and I take decisions, as we have done in the past. We wore T-shirts that were not about patronage; we went to jail and earned nothing for the luxury; and we have suffered the indignity of the loss of family, friends and relations. I hear false piety from the DUP day in, day out. I am disappointed at the intervention — it was a cheap shot from a party that is spending £106,000 which came to it with devolution. One might have called a point of order to find out if it was all right to be in a paid post in the Commission and also take a chairmanship, which the larger parties will attempt to have paid. However, we will worry about that later.

Donovan McClelland (Social Democratic and Labour Party, South Antrim)

I have listened to you in the past and have tremendous respect for you, but I take great offence at some of the things you are saying. You have alleged that my Colleagues and Friends and I have been handed out some sort of patronage. I can tell you that there are no "snouts in the trough" in my party, nor have there ever been. Members of my party have given years of dedicated public service at great personal risk. To be told that we are indulging ourselves and taking advantage of patronage is very offensive.

John (Speaker, Belfast East)

May I encourage Members not to address each other directly but to speak through the Chair. It is often when people feel most strongly that they are inclined to address each other. That is precisely why it is best to speak through the Chair.

David Ervine (PUP, Belfast East)

I am sure that Mr McClelland is becoming an expert on Standards and Privilege. He is going to be on that Committee, and, while he is not being paid at the moment, he undoubtedly will be. At some point he will be able to challenge me if he believes that I am being insulting. I am an elected representative who is entitled to say what he believes as long as the language is parliamentary. Is that correct, Mr Speaker?

John (Speaker, Belfast East)

That is entirely correct, so long as it is apposite.

David Ervine (PUP, Belfast East)

This all relates to the issue of inclusivity and, therefore, to the movement away from the Good Friday Agreement. The tragedy of this is that I will be maligned and misunderstood. People will believe that we want a share of something. We wanted to understand what was happening, and we wanted inclusivity. At every turn we have seen the large parties not adhering to that principle. It is a tragedy that they, including the DUP, have not.

There are still certain matters to be ironed out if there is to be any hope of inclusivity, and I ask the larger parties to give this some consideration now. There is an experience shared by the larger parties, and, while we may not be able to get in the way very much in the Assembly, on the ground we can get in the way quite well. We have the capacity to be on the hustings, to rap the doors, to work our advice centres and to ensure that the larger parties know that politically we exist. If they are not doing their jobs properly perhaps we will seek some benefit from that.

Yesterday we heard Mr Dodds, the Minister for Social Development, who I would have thought would want to see people climbing the ladder, being rather disparaging about those who had crept in through the back door. Of course, quite a few in his party benefited from seats won far lower down the order than those won by Members from the smaller parties that I am attempting to represent. Is there some design that we make this Assembly so expensive, given that it costs £102,000 twice for prime-ministerial posts, that when the four-year review comes round some of the wee people will be expected to drop off? If I were worried about that I would be wondering how much more worried some of the UUP, the SDLP, the DUP and Sinn Féin must be. If we are talking about who got the sixth seats it does not follow that it was Members from the small parties.

Mark Durkan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

I speak purely as Minister of Finance and Personnel and will not comment on remarks about what is or is not consistent or compatible with the Good Friday Agreement. As Minister of Finance and Personnel I acknowledge that both Bills have public expenditure implications, which have been included in the draft Budget presented to the Assembly earlier.

It is only right that the Commission’s proposals which impact on public expenditure be considered alongside other spending plans, and I take no issue with those who have raised questions, searching or otherwise. These cannot be seen in isolation as they impact directly on resources that will be available in the future for departmental spending. I confirm that, if approved by the Assembly, appropriate financial provision will be included in future appropriation Bills.

Monica McWilliams (NIWC, Belfast South)

I will have a number of questions to which I hope Mr Fee can respond in his summing-up, but I want to raise some concerns first.

May I say to Mr Morrow that there is no one here surplus to requirements. All Members went out and got a mandate. Whether from the Executive or from the Opposition, none of them are surplus to requirements.

Maurice Morrow (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

On a point of order, Mr Speaker. I did not say that they were surplus to requirements; I said that they were now perceived to be surplus to requirements. Their function was to bolster up this regime, but they are no longer used. I do not say that in a disparaging way. That is the way they are perceived. They are no longer required.

Monica McWilliams (NIWC, Belfast South)

Members came here in response to the will of the people, expressed through a referendum that led to an election. Some of those who stood in the election are now in the Executive. If they continue to see themselves as surplus to requirements they should say so. It is not fair comment to say that others are perceived in that way.

With regard to the issue of who is in the Opposition, it was fair for Mr Robinson to say that his party would not be nominating anyone for the Public Accounts Committee chairpersonship. I would like to have heard how many other parties felt the same way. But that was lost. At all the transitional seminars that Assembly Members attended before devolution every analyst and international commentator said that the chairmanship of the Public Accounts Committee should not be held by a person on the Government side. It is a great disappointment that parties did not recognise that.

We have just agreed the Chairpersons and Deputy Chairpersons of these Committees, but it has not been agreed that they should be paid. So far as I am aware, it will require a change of legislation for that to happen. They are at present not recognised for payment under the Standing Orders. I urge both those Members who became office holders as a result of this morning’s nomination under d’Hondt and the parties which sit on the Business Committee to take note of the fact that all our decisions reflect on what happens in each of the Departments. I make that comment particularly in response to the comments of the Minister of Finance and Personnel. This is a public expenditure issue.

The members of the Commission should once again review the difference between what was recommended by the Senior Salaries Review Body, which is independent, and the final result, particularly in relation to payment to the members of the Commission.

In relation to the resettlement allowance for Members, the memorandum accompanying the Bill states

"This gives a resettlement allowance varying, for example, between six months’ pay for a Member standing down from the Assembly aged below 50, to one year’s salary for a Member standing down between age 55 to 64 with 15 or more years’ service."

Does the 15 or more years’ service apply only to the latter age group or to both?

John Fee (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Newry and Armagh)

In my role as an Assembly Commissioner I do not know that I have the competence to respond to much of what has been said, and I do not intend to do so. We shall have to respond in writing to Ms McWilliams’s final question. The arrangements that we are putting in place are outlined in the schedule to the Bill and are precisely the same as those that apply in Westminster and, I understand, in Scotland and Wales. We would need to study this table to work out precisely at what age and length of service the different levels of percentage kick in. We shall write to Ms McWilliams on that point.

I detected no other detailed questions during the debate, and I know that the Bill will go to the Finance Committee if it gets a Second Stage. I thank the Minister of Finance and Personnel for his commitment to honour any future decision of the Assembly in this regard.

Question put and agreed to.

Resolved:

That the Second Stage of the Allowances to Members of the Assembly and Office Holders Bill (NIA 2/99) be agreed.

Financial Assistance for Political Parties Bill

John Fee (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Newry and Armagh)

I beg to move

That the Second Stage of the Financial Assistance for Political Parties Bill (NIA 3/99) be approved.

The Assembly needs to make provision urgently to take account of the fact that the arrangements for giving financial assistance to political parties fell with devolution. There is no authority under the Northern Ireland Act for the Assembly Commission to make payments to political parties, and this Bill appears to the Assembly Commission to be the only legal mechanism for ensuring two things. First, it enables us to continue, in the short term, to make provision for political parties. Secondly, it enables us to introduce a requirement that the Assembly Commission, in consultation with all Members of the Assembly, bring forward a new, detailed scheme under the Bill before 31 March 1999.

There are only four clauses in the Bill. The first one is permissive — it allows the Assembly Commission to make payments to the parties. The second places a requirement on the Commission to bring forward a scheme before 31 March 1999. The clause on transition agreements would approve an arrangement whereby the Assembly Commission would continue to pay the political parties at the same rates as applied before devolution. That is a short-term measure to allow us to ensure sure that over Christmas and the new year the parties will continue to get financial support to pay their staff and the running costs of their offices.

The real import of the Bill is that it will require a new scheme to be designed by the Commission. I am aware that many parties are not happy with the existing scheme and that the old scheme did not make provision for all sorts of contingencies. In my view this Bill will enable Members to devise a decent, proper and equitable scheme in the new year, which will properly provide support for the political parties.

Question put and agreed to.

Resolved:

That the Second Stage of the Financial Assistance for Political Parties Bill (NIA 3/99) be agreed.

Adjourned at 12.48 pm.