Northern Ireland Assembly, 6 November 2000

233 contributions from 49 members. The official report.

The Environment British-Irish Council Sectoral Meeting

John (Speaker, Belfast East)

I have received notice from the Minister of the Environment that he wishes to make a statement on the British-Irish Council Environment Sectoral Group meeting held in London on Monday 2 October.

Sam Foster (UUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

Following nomination by the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister, Mr Martin McGuinness and I represented the Northern Ireland Executive at a meeting of the British-Irish Council on the Environment on 2 October. The UK Government were represented by the Environment Minister, Mr Michael Meacher MP, who chaired the meeting. The Irish Government were represented by Mr Noel Dempsey TD, Minister for the Environment and Local Government. The meeting was also attended by representatives of the Scottish Executive, the National Assembly for Wales, the Isle of Man Government and the States of Jersey and Guernsey.

A full list of delegates is attached to the communiqué that was issued after the meeting and placed in the Assembly Library. This statement has been agreed by Mr McGuinness and is being made on his behalf.

At the first summit meeting of the British-Irish Council, on 17 December 1999, the environment was selected as an issue for early discussion. The UK Government were tasked with taking the lead in this area and under the chairmanship of Mr Meacher, the environment sectoral group was established to consider the environmental issues affecting the member Administrations and to report back.

The members agreed that the group would provide a valuable forum for the exchange of information and the discussion of matters of mutual interest. The group discussed a wide range of priority areas for future consideration. These included: the impacts on the environment of climate change, agriculture and aquaculture; waste management, waste recycling and radioactive and chemical wastes; water quality under the water framework directive; and environmental research. Many of these were put forward by the Northern Ireland Administration.

After discussion the group agreed that consideration over the next few months should concentrate on radioactive waste from the Sellafield site, in respect of which the Irish Government and the Isle of Man would lead the preparation of a paper for the next meeting; the impacts of climate change, in respect of which the United Kingdom Government would take the lead; and waste management, in respect of which the Scottish Executive would prepare a paper on initiatives being pursued in Scotland. The work will be progressed by working groups of officials under the leadership of each Administration, who will report back to the environment sectoral group.

I expressed a particular interest in water quality management in the context of the Water Framework Directive, and it is my expectation that consideration will be given to this at subsequent meetings.

The group also considered a paper by the United Kingdom Government which reviewed the conclusions of the OSPAR regional quality status report on the Celtic seas. The group reviewed the issues of concern identified in the report and the ways in which they are being dealt with in various forums. It was agreed that a high level of liaison and co-operation should continue between the Administrations concerned to facilitate the implementation of all appropriate measures and the identification of any new initiatives that may be required. It was agreed that periodic reports on progress should be provided to the group.

Finally, the group considered and agreed the text of the communiqué which was issued after the meeting. A copy of the communiqué has been placed in the Assembly Library. The next meeting of the environment sectoral group will be hosted by the Scottish Executive.

Eddie McGrady (Social Democratic and Labour Party, South Down)

I thank the Minister for his report on the British-Irish Council meeting. It is no surprise that the first highlighted item was radioactive discharge into the Irish Sea from Sellafield, although the heading refers to waste from Sellafield. Can the Minister confirm that in dealing with radioactive waste from the Sellafield site he will be dealing not only with the high and medium grade waste stored on land but also with the discharges of low level radioactive waste into the Irish Sea? Can he indicate whether or not the British Government — the major shareholders of the main offender, British Nuclear Fuels Ltd (BNFL) — have declared an interest in this matter? The British Government signed the OSPAR agreement. In July 1998 they indicated that they would reduce radioactive waste into the Irish Sea to nil by 2020. In view of the fact that they have further licence to reprocess particularly at the MOX plant at Sellafield, how do they propose to achieve zero outflow by 2020 if they are increasing the discharges?

Sam Foster (UUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

The operation of the Sellafield plant and its impact on the Irish Sea is of considerable interest to some sections of the Northern Ireland public, and Mr McGrady shows great interest in it. So far as I am aware, the levels of radioactivity measured by the Environment and Heritage Service are of negligible radiological significance. The Environment and Heritage Service arranges for samples of seaweed, sediment, fish and shellfish to be collected quarterly for analysis. We also monitor the air over coastal intertidal sediments. This reveals minimum amounts of radioactivity which are consistent with normal background levels. The Northern Ireland programme has been in place since the early 1970s and is reviewed annually to ensure that any changes in discharge are assessed — for example, the Thermal Oxide Reprocessing Plant (THORP) Start-Up Scheme in 1994. I can assure Members that these issues have come to our attention, and that the level of radioactivity measured in the environment is not of any great significance.

William McCrea (DUP, Mid Ulster)

I thank the Minister for his statement and for raising many issues which will be of interest to my Committee. I note that working groups are to be set up to deal with specific issues. Will the groups include staff from Northern Ireland? If not, why not?

Radioactive waste from Sellafield is an important issue. Is the Minister’s Department monitoring the effects of Sellafield discharge around the Northern Ireland coastline? If so, what are the findings? Northern Ireland produces less than 3·5% of the United Kingdom’s total greenhouse gas emissions, yet we are still affected by the impact of climate change and cannot afford to be complacent. Are there specific plans to further reduce these emissions in Northern Ireland?

Waste management is topical and we had a helpful exchange on the issue last week. I note that a paper on waste management initiatives in Scotland is to be presented to the sectoral group, and local councils are currently drafting plans for departmental perusal. Does the Minister think that Scotland can show Northern Ireland the way forward, and can he say which particular initiatives will be of local interest?

Finally, on a personal note, I note that Martin McGuinness, Sinn Féin/IRA Member, was at the meeting. As the leader of the Ulster Unionist Party has decided that Sinn Féin/IRA is to be banned from North/South bodies, can the Minister confirm that this ban will be extended to the British-Irish Council meetings?

Sam Foster (UUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

The Member’s last question is one for my leader to answer.

One question concerned the officials who will be operating —

John (Speaker, Belfast East)

For the sake of clarity, let me point out that it is the First Minister who would deal with the Member’s question. I know that the Minister’s leader and the First Minister are one and the same person, but technically it is a matter for the First Minister.

Sam Foster (UUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

Yes, it is for the First Minister to decide, and I cannot answer for him.

Officials from the Environment and Heritage Service will play a full part in the working groups.

The Environment and Heritage Service has 40 estuarine and coastal monitoring points around Northern Ireland. These include seven stations that are part of the UK’s national marine monitoring programme, which sets the protocols for best practice in marine monitoring. These arrangements apply at all our sampling sites. My Department and the Department of Agriculture and Rural Development are working together on the nutrient enrichment of our sea loughs.

The Department of the Environment’s draft budget includes £3·5 million to help local district councils to implement the waste management strategy. Three waste management planning groups have been formed representing all 26 district councils and their plans are due by June 2001. A consultation paper on partnerships between councils and with the private and voluntary sectors to implement the strategy was issued in August. Further planned work includes the establishment of a new advisory board to help my Department in implementation of the waste management strategy, the issue of planning policy statement on planning and waste management and the introduction of further waste management regulations.

While local authorities in Northern Ireland are working out their waste management plans, in Scotland recycling markets and other initiatives are well progressed, and we may be able to follow the lead of the Scots, take their advice and adopt their guidelines.

Mitchel McLaughlin (Sinn Féin, Foyle)

Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. I thank the Minister for his statement. I welcome the study into radioactive waste from Sellafield, and I hope the Minister took the opportunity to raise the issue of cancer clusters on the east coast, which affect not only the Irish Government but also the Assembly. These are issues in which we take a close interest.

However, my response to the Minister’s statement relates to two closely interconnected issues in particular — the impacts of climate change and waste management. We can no longer deny the consequences of these: we have all seen the daily weather bulletins and the images of flooding in recent days. I would be interested to know how much more advanced the Scottish Executive’s waste management programme is. Did they, for example, bring any information to that meeting that indicated that they were putting structures and legislation in place to ensure that we control the level of waste being produced as well as procedures for reuse and recycling?

Sam Foster (UUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

Waste management is very much advanced in Scotland, and, as I said in my earlier answer, we are willing to take advice from Scotland and its officials, with whom our officials are in touch. We will willingly take any guidance or help we can get. They do seem to be a little bit more advanced than we are in this part of the world. We are willing to follow that through and take from it what is beneficial.

The Member referred to the treacherous climate change. The Department of the Environment fully supports the climate change programme currently being drawn up by the Department of Environment, Transport and the Regions and the devolved Administrations. The programme will set out a range of measures to meet the UK’s Kyoto obligations for a 12·5% cut in greenhouse gas emissions by 2008-12. A major study will be commissioned to identify the key areas in which climate change is most likely to have an impact on Northern Ireland. The results of this preliminary study will form the basis for future work on climate change here. The most likely areas requiring detailed attention are water resources, flood protection, buildings, habitats and land use planning. The Member referred to waste management. This is a big issue, and it is going to be a difficult one. It will be a slow, educational process. We are willing to work on it in co-ordination with the Scottish people.

Carmel Hanna (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast South)

At the environment conference on 25 October with the Prime Minister, the CBI and the Green Alliance, it was announced that moneys would be made available — to the tune of about £100 million — through the Carbon Trust and the New Opportunity Trust, to encourage cleaner technologies such as wind, solar power and renewable energy, and to help further engage consumers with initiatives. Did the Minister get an opportunity to discuss a share of this money for Northern Ireland, which would work out at about £2·5 million?

Sam Foster (UUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

No in-depth discussion took place at that particular meeting because we were discussing many other matters. However, those are certainly issues that we will follow through and address, because if money is available, we want to ensure that we receive it too.

David Ford (Alliance, South Antrim)

I welcome the Minister’s statement, although it seems that the major question that must be asked of most of the statement is "When?" A number of priorities were highlighted, and there is great concern in the Chamber and outside about matters such as Sellafield. Perhaps it would have been beneficial if the Minister had given us some idea of the timing of any changes within Sellafield and of his Administration’s approach to the running down of the plant.

Climate change and waste management are priorities. My concern is about climate change. Can the Minister explain how matters like public transport, which are not in his Department’s remit, will be dealt with by the British-Irish Council’s Environment sector? Who will cover those issues on our behalf? May I have an assurance that the work being done by the three groups in Northern Ireland on waste management will not be delayed now that the Executive is in consultation with the Scots in the British-Irish Council? When and how quickly can we expect action?

Sam Foster (UUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

There will be no delay whatsoever with any of the plans that are afoot. It is difficult to say when the waste management strategy will be finalised, but I assure Members that the Department will pursue all the issues with haste, to the benefit of this part of the world.

Esmond Birnie (UUP, Belfast South)

I thank the Minister for his statement. In a sense, the environment is an eminently suitable subject for the British-Irish Council. Environmental issues can spill over — technically and literally — from one country or jurisdiction to another. A co-operative approach is therefore welcome.

The Minister highlighted the important issue of climate change. Our country — the United Kingdom — has made considerable progress in implementing so-called carbon taxing, including the climate change levy on energy prices and the escalator on transport fuel. Both of those moves have, of course, caused problems, as we have previously noted. The Republic of Ireland’s Government have been much slower than the United Kingdom’s to adopt the practice and the principle of taxing economic activity according to the amount of climate-changing carbon that is produced. What progress is being made through the British/Irish Council to persuade the Dublin Government, like the United Kingdom Government, to take more seriously their international obligations on climate change?

Sam Foster (UUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

Climate change is a big issue. Each jurisdiction has a responsibility to fulfil, and that will be vigorously pursued. If the Republic of Ireland is falling behind, that issue will be pursued with its Government. I am concerned about climate change. There is clear scientific evidence that sufficient damage has already been done to the earth’s climate to cause a range of potential changes, regardless of the influence of action under Kyoto.

Key policies include improving businesses’ use of energy, using the climate change levy; stimulating new, more efficient forms of power generation such as renewables, combined heat and power plants; cutting transport emissions through fuel efficiency and taxation; promoting better energy efficiency in the domestic sector; reducing emissions from agriculture through better management, cuts in fertiliser usage and energy efficiency; and setting a good example of green housekeeping in the public sector. The Department of the Environment, in conjunction with the Scotland and Northern Ireland Forum for Environmental Research (SNIFFER), is about to commission a major scoping study into the impacts of climate change in Northern Ireland. The results of that preliminary study will form the basis for future work on climate change.

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

Why did the Minister omit the names of the representatives of the Scottish Executive, the National Assembly for Wales, the Isle of Man Government and the states of Jersey and Guernsey? That is not very inclusive. I would be as interested to know about their representatives as about those of the Irish Government.

Regarding the OSPAR regional quality status report on the Celtic seas, did the Minister raise the issue of munitions dumping in the Beaufort’s Dyke and the problems with munitions washing up on the County Antrim coastline?

Sam Foster (UUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

The names of those who attended are in the communiqué.

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

What about the statement?

Sam Foster (UUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

The statement is in the Library. The statement that I gave earlier referred to those who were there.

I did not pick up Mr Poots’s question fully. I said that the Scottish Executive were there, as were the National Assembly for Wales, the Isle of Man Government and representatives of Jersey and Guernsey.

John (Speaker, Belfast East)

Would Mr Poots like to put the question again?

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

Who represented the Scottish Executive and the other named bodies?

Sam Foster (UUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

Their names were unfamiliar to me. I had never met them before. I can provide the Member with their names by written reply.

What was the Member’s other question?

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

Was the issue of munitions dumping at Beaufort’s Dyke raised in relation to the OSPAR Commission’s regional quality status report on the Celtic Seas?

Sam Foster (UUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

Beaufort’s Dyke was referred to and will be dealt with in due course. I now have the names of the delegates. Does the Member want to know who was on the United Kingdom delegation?

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

All of them.

Sam Foster (UUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

The members of the United Kingdom delegation were Ms Dinah Nicholls, Mr Andrew Burchell, Mr Henry Derwent and Mr Alan Simcock. Those on the Irish delegation were Mr Noel Dempsey TD, Ms Geraldine Tallon and Mr John Kelleher. The Northern Ireland delegation comprised Mr Sam Foster MLA, Mr Martin McGuinness MP MLA, Mr Felix Dillon and Mr Jim Lamont. Those representing Scotland were Ms Sarah Boyack MSP, Ms Nicola Munro and Mr Sandy Cameron. The members of the delegation from Wales were Mr Bob Macey and Dr Havard Prosser. The Isle of Man representatives were The Hon Walter Gilbey MHK, Mr Anthony Hamilton, Mr Martin Hall and Dr Paul McKenna. The Jersey delegation comprised Senator Nigel Queree, Dr Michael Romeril and Mr Gerard le Claire. The Guernsey representatives were Deputy Roger Berry and Mr Stephen Smith. The British-Irish Council secretariat was represented by Mr Mike Sweet and Mr Kieran Madden. It is not easy to remember all those names.

The OSPAR Commission report referred to Beaufort’s Dyke. Beaufort’s Dyke has not been forgotten. It is still highlighted, and will continue to be so, because I know that there are concerns about the Antrim coast.

Peter Robinson (DUP, Belfast East)

On a point of order, Mr Speaker. The specific question was whether the issue was raised at the meeting.

John (Speaker, Belfast East)

The Minister may have missed that part of the question.

Sam Foster (UUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

The issue of Beaufort’s Dyke was raised at the meeting and remains an issue of concern.

John (Speaker, Belfast East)

There being no further questions, we shall move on.

John (Speaker, Belfast East)

I have received notice from the Minister of Health, Social Services and Public Safety that she wishes to make a statement on the general objectives and practices of the Food Standards Agency.

(Madam Deputy Speaker [Ms Morrice] in the Chair)

Bairbre de Brún (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

Go raibh maith agat, a Leas Cheann Comhairle. Tá áthas orm Ráiteas ar Chuspóirí Ginearálta agus Chleachtais na Gníomhaireachta um Chaighdeáin Bia a chur faoi bhráid an Tionóil inniu.

Bunaíodh an Ghníomhaireacht um Chaighdeáin Bia faoin Food Standards Act 1999 leis an tsláinte phoiblí a chosaint ar phriacail a d’fhéadfadh a bheith ann maidir le bia a thomhailtear agus le leas tomhaltóirí a chosaint i dtaca le bia.

Tá cur síos ginearálta sa doiciméad ar an dóigh a mbeidh an ghníomhaireacht ag feidhmiú. Leagtar amach na príomhchuspóirí agus na cleachtais ghinearálta atá beartaithe ag an ghníomhaireacht a chur i bhfeidhm nuair a bheas sí i mbun a cuid feidhmeanna.

Ceanglaítear ar an ghníomhaireacht faoi alt 22(4) den Acht dréachtráiteas a chur faoi bhráid Airí lena gcead a fháil. Más mian le hAirí leasuithe ar bith a dhéanamh ar an ráiteas seo, is gá dóibh, faoi alt 22(5), dul i gcomhairle leis an ghníomhaireacht. Is gá faoi alt 22(6) an ráiteas ceadaithe a chur faoi bhráid na Parlaiminte i Westminster, Tionól Náisiúnta na Breataine Bige, Pharlaimint na hAlban agus an Tionóil anseo.

I ndiaidh comhairliú forleitheadach poiblí a dhéanamh, tá an Ráiteas ar Chuspóirí Ginearálta agus Chleachtais ceadaithe ag an Státrúnaí Sláinte, ag an Aire Sláinte in Albain, ag an Rúnaí Sláinte sa Bhreatain Bheag agus agam féin. Molaim don Tionól é.

I am pleased to present to the Assembly the Food Standards Agency’s (FSA) Statement of General Objectives and Practices. The FSA was set up by the Food Standards Act 1999 to protect public health from the risks that may arise in connection with food consumption and to protect consumers’ interests in relation to food.

The document describes in general terms how the agency will operate and sets out the main objectives and general practices that the agency intends to adopt. Section 22(4) of the Food Standards Act 1999 requires the agency to submit the draft statement to Ministers for their approval. Should Ministers wish to make any modification to the statement, section 22(5) requires them to consult the agency before doing so. Section 22(6) requires that the approved statement be laid before the Parliament at Westminster, the National Assembly for Wales, the Scottish Parliament and this Assembly. After wide-ranging public consultation, the Statement of General Objectives and Practices has been approved by the Secretary of State for Health, by myself, by the Minister for Health in Scotland and the Health Secretary in Wales. I commend it to the Assembly.

P J Bradley (Social Democratic and Labour Party, South Down)

The recently published Phillips report into the BSE crisis included some serious findings. What steps has the Food Standards Agency taken to adopt the recommendations made in the report?

Bairbre de Brún (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

As the Member said, the Phillips report included some very serious statements and set out actions to be taken. Sir John Krebs, the chairman of the Food Standards Agency, welcomed the publication of the report on the Phillips inquiry into BSE on Thursday 26 October 2000, and pledged that vital information on food safety risks would never again be withheld from the public. He also said that many of the key changes identified by the inquiry as being necessary to protect consumers had already been adopted by the agency.

The FSA has made a clean start on openness and public accountability; its research and advice are open to scrutiny, and where there is uncertainty or risk the agency says so. The FSA has been reviewing BSE controls since April 2000 and has held a series of public meetings. It will submit a report to Health and Agriculture Ministers in Westminster, the Welsh Assembly, the Scottish Parliament and this Assembly, taking account of the report of the BSE inquiry.

Kieran McCarthy (Alliance, Strangford)

I welcome the Minister’s statement on the FSA. It must be a priority to maintain high standards, restore confidence to the consumer — not only in Northern Ireland but across the world — and regain local producers’ lost export business. Openness and transparency are of great importance. I hope that lessons have been learnt from the experience of previous Administrations. The Minister briefly referred to those lessons in relation to BSE, a devastating disease. Will the agency be able to bring its full authority to bear in examining all the food that is imported into Northern Ireland? Will that come under the FSA’s umbrella?

Bairbre de Brún (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

I agree with everything that Mr McCarthy has said about openness and transparency. The statement shows clearly that the agency believes such things to be paramount. The FSA will work with local enforcement agencies to improve quality and has made a framework agreement with them. The agency will also work with the Department of Agriculture and Rural Development, setting out overall strategic objectives and monitoring their enforcement. Through setting these objectives, monitoring and working with other agencies, the FSA will be able to ensure that food safety is paramount from the farm gate to the plate.

Paul Berry (DUP, Newry and Armagh)

I welcome this UK body, the Food Standards Agency — and I emphasise "UK body".

First, as regards part 5, "Our Working Practices", will the Department detail the policy that will be followed to ensure that the agency’s working practices are transparent? Secondly, when there is conflicting scientific advice, what policy will be followed? Thirdly, what will be the relationship between this body and the all-Ireland body launched in Enniskillen on Friday?

Bairbre de Brún (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

On the issue of transparency and openness, the Food Standards Act 1999 gives the agency the power to publish its advice to Ministers, and this principle is embodied in its proposed code of practice on openness. The agency will normally publish the advice and information it receives and provides to others. It is committed to issuing clear and timely advice, in plain language, on all issues relating to food safety and other consumer interests regarding food. In addition, a large amount of information on the Food Standards Agency, its responsibilities and activities will be included on its website.

I will briefly explain how the agency will act on occasions when there is scientific uncertainty. The proposed statement on the agency’s approach to risk — on which it is currently consulting — describes, in general terms, how it intends to deal with risks from the time when the agency first becomes aware of them through to the decision making and enforcement stages. The agency will take a precautionary approach — it will not always wait until it has proof of a potential hazard before acting or issuing advice.

On the issue of working with other bodies to promote food safety, it is clear that the Food Safety Promotion Board will have the lead role. The Food Standards Agency will have a role in working on draft legislation and will provide, in an EU context, advice to the Assembly and Ministers. The two bodies do not carry out the same functions but a relationship between the local executive of the Food Standards Agency and the Food Safety Promotion Board will be needed. To facilitate effective co-operation, a concordat will be put in place following agreement by the two bodies, which will set out the arrangements for co-operation and liaison.

James Leslie (UUP, North Antrim)

I welcome the Minister’s statement on food standards. The theme running through this document starts with basing decisions on best scientific advice; later it refers to sound scientific advice and finally it recognises there is uncertainty in the science. How does the Minister and this agency propose to reconcile the three situations? It is realistic to say that there is uncertainty, so how do they propose to identify the best advice?

The agency’s Statement of General Objectives and Practices contains the following objective:

"To ensure that the interests of UK consumers in relation to food are effectively promoted within the European Union and in other international forums."

That is a fairly ineffective statement of intent. The problem we have with food standards in the United Kingdom is that, whilst the food produced within the United Kingdom is subject to rigorous standards, the food that is imported and sold on the same supermarket shelves is not subject to anything like the same standards. Do the Minister and her colleagues propose to address this matter, with a view to providing some means of protection to consumers in the United Kingdom from imported food subject to much less rigorous standards?

Bairbre de Brún (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

I addressed the issue of how the agency will deal with the uncertainties in my previous response. It will work on the basis of the best scientific advice available, and, as the Food Safety Agency, it will have access to scientific advice from England, Scotland, Wales and here.

The local board of the agency will have access to that advice. Given the precautionary principle, that will be the key basis for informing decisions and informing the agency, so where there is uncertainty, that is how it will be approached. Indeed, it is of paramount importance that the consumers have clear advice and clear, open information about the state of play.

As regards setting policy, it will also try to ensure that there is open consultation with a wide range of people. When the agency is making decisions, such as setting overall parameters in the importing of products, it will consult with all of those who could be or are affected — it is currently preparing guidance on that — and, in line with the agency’s commitment to improve continually the way that consultation is conducted, it will invite stakeholders to comment on the guidance that it has.

Eamonn ONeill (Social Democratic and Labour Party, South Down)

I would also like to welcome the Minister’s statement, and particularly the emphasis she put on the openness and transparency of the working practices of the Food Standards Agency. Did she take note of the work that agency has done in the UK in that the entire sheep flock is to be screened in case there is BSE in that flock masquerading as scrapie? In the light of the openness and transparency that the Minister emphasised so much, can she advise us of the position in Northern Ireland and what plans the Food Standards Agency here has for this?

Bairbre de Brún (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

The more general questions in respect of the handling of BSE will be dealt with in a statement tomorrow. I can say that the controls for sheep were introduced on a precautionary basis as a risk-reduction measure, since BSE has never been found in the flock. These controls are regarded as adequate, although there is a great deal of uncertainty about BSE and sheep, and the agency considers that it is important to clear this up, so it is pressing for further and faster research.

Jim Shannon (DUP, Strangford)

I too welcome the consistent approach to the Food Standards Agency in the United Kingdom.

In relation to the funding of the agency, the £90 levy has been dropped, but a charge will be made by way of a licence fee. People are worried that these licence fees could be as much as £600 per shop or establishment. Some were already saying that the £90 was too much. Would it not have been better to ensure that the extra work for local environmental health groups was funded centrally through the Government?

I would also like to have a commitment that the promotion of public health will be given equal status to the protection of public health, and I want to know exactly how that will work. Paragraph 11 of the statement mentions the fact that the agency’s information should be placed in the public domain. Can we have a commitment on that or, if necessary, a clear reason that it should not be so? I am concerned that we may not have the transparency that Mr McCarthy and Mr Leslie talked about.

As for the pooling of resources, the statement refers to provision for technical and scientific specialist support although, in many cases, local government is already doing that. I want to ensure that there are sufficient resources and that the system we have will work effectively.

Bairbre de Brún (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

The Member has raised several important points. Licensing is subject to the existence of enhanced hygiene conditions; documented hazard analysis and critical control points; food safety management controls; and improved hygiene training for staff. A charge of £100 will be payable by businesses to the issuing authority on receipt on the licence.

In relation to the promotion of food safety, it is clear from the agency’s statement that it has set itself the target of measurably improving public confidence and public information. Openness will be pursued as one of its key objectives. The agency will conduct and publish annual consumer attitude surveys on food issues and on the Food Standards Agency itself. It will publish annual reports concerning its scientific and surveillance work, in a manner which consumers can understand. It will enhance its website so that that is completely interactive by 2002, thereby allowing the public to tell the agency what they would like it to do.

Facilities to provide consumer advice will be developed, and new approaches that harness recent developments in e-technology will be piloted. The agency will hold public board meetings and open discussions in order to listen to, and act upon, public concerns. It will also encourage local authorities to publish local information on hygiene standards in food premises. Details of the performance of enforcement activities will be made public. Availability of research results will be increased and a system for post hoc audits of major food incidents, involving the relevant stakeholders, will be established. It is important to note that the agency can provide and publish advice to Ministers without having to seek ministerial approval.

With regard to the withholding of information, the proposed code of practice on openness makes the disclosure and publication of advice and information the norm. In accordance with this principle, information will only be withheld when strictly necessary. The code of practice on openness lists the various legal constraints on publication. Openness will be the key factor in the agency’s operation.

Derek Hussey (UUP, West Tyrone)

I welcome the Food Standards Agency’s statement of general objectives and practices. In the section dealing with accountability, the board accepts collective responsibility for the co-ordination of the agency’s activities across the United Kingdom, and its accountability to the various Administrations. With regard to the regulatory work of the board, it is important that there is proper communication within those Administrations. Can the Minister tell us what internal lines of communication she has put in place to ensure the efficient and effective cross-departmental referencing that will be necessary in the area of regulation?

Bairbre de Brún (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

The agency will liaise; it will set up concordats, liaison and monitoring groups. Also, in the area of enforcement, the agency, in trying to improve standards, is seeking to strengthen and develop links with those in local authorities responsible for enforcing food laws.

As part of this joint Government and local authority initiative, a group was set up in May 1999, which included representation from the Assembly. The culmination of the group’s work, and that of the two sub-groups established to examine the details, was the development of proposals for the Food Standards Agency framework agreement. Those draft proposals were issued in April for a three-month consultation period, which concluded in July. The majority of comments received largely supported the underlying principles of the framework agreement. Therefore the agency has set in place, and is continuing to set in place, specific written policies and practices to ensure proper co-ordination of all aspects of its work with each of the agencies involved.

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

Will the Food Safety Promotion Board — the all-Ireland executive body — adopt the best working practice, as set out in the Food Standards Agency’s statement? If so, will the board raise the issue of the dumping of BSE carcasses close to rivers in the Irish Republic, where there is official support for such dumping? We know that JCBs have been used in BSE dumping for quite a while in the Irish Republic.

Bairbre de Brún (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

As I said, the Foods Standards Agency is in the process of working out its relationship with the Food Safety Promotion Board and the two bodies are to agree a written concordat. In advance of that, it is not possible to say exactly what proposals the Food Standards Agency might bring forward that the Food Safety Promotion Board might or might not adopt. I stress again that, to some extent, the two bodies carry out different types of work, although they work in the same area and we will need to have overlapping arrangements. Clearly — [Interruption]

Jane Morrice (NIWC, North Down)

Order. Would Mr Poots like to put the question again?

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

There has been dumping of BSE-infected carcasses close to rivers in the Irish Republic, and that has been supported by the Government. Will the standards that apply in Northern Ireland be applied to animals in the Irish Republic, and will the Minister take steps to stop the importation of animals that do not meet the standards that are required of farmers in Northern Ireland?

Bairbre de Brún (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

The Member should check Hansard to see whether or not he asked the specific question that I was specifically answering when he interrupted me.

Neither the Food Standards Agency nor I can impose a specific requirement relating to the way in which others carry out their work. However, all concerns raised about food standards and safety will be discussed.

Ian Paisley Jnr (DUP, North Antrim)

Can the Minister reveal to the House the cost of her visit to Enniskillen for a meeting at which, I understand, food safety was on the agenda? One newspaper said that the Minister’s Nationalist talk-in in Enniskillen cost the equivalent of two hip replacement operations. Is that the best use of resources by the Minister of Health, Social Services and Public Safety and her Department? Which officials accompanied the Minister to her Nationalist talk-in in Enniskillen? What was the total cost of the junket?

Bairbre de Brún (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

I am not sure that the question relates specifically to the Food Standards Agency statement. However, as regards the food safety aspects — and all the other aspects — of Friday’s bilateral ministerial meeting, my view is that it was, indeed, a very worthwhile use of resources, which will lead to considerable tangible benefits in food safety and health provision throughout the island of Ireland.

I shall write to the Member about the officials who accompanied me and the costs of the day.

(Mr Deputy Speaker [Sir John Gorman] in the Chair)

Family Law Bill: Second Stage

Mark Durkan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

That the Second Stage of the Family Law Bill [NIABill 4/00] be agreed.

I present this short Bill because of my responsibility for law reform, with particular reference to family law, in Northern Ireland. The Bill contains only a few policy aims, but they are very significant.

The Bill seeks to facilitate the acquisition of parental responsibility by unmarried fathers for their children. As an ancillary measure it also seeks to make the acquisition of parental responsibility by step-parents for the children of their spouses more transparent. At present the usual method is through the formal adoption of a child, but this should not always be necessary.

The Bill also creates a statutory presumption of paternity in two sets of circumstances — where a man is married to a woman at any time between the conception and birth of a child, and where he has been registered as the child’s father in the Register of Births, Deaths and Marriages.

The Bill also seeks to update the law on the range of tests that a court may authorise to be used to prove or disprove the parentage of a child. Parentage in this context is whether someone is or is not the mother or father of a child.

The Bill contains only three substantive clauses. I will deal with each of them and illustrate how they will interact with existing family law principles. Members have already seen the Bill and the accompanying explanatory and financial memorandum.

I will make some preliminary remarks about the policy behind the reforms. In Northern Ireland, marriage remains the norm for couples wishing to share their lives with their children, and in that situation husbands and wives share parental responsibility for their children. However, more couples are choosing not to marry — at least not straight away — but they desire to establish a family relationship with children. In 1998, for example, 6,743 live births occurred outside marriage. This represented 28·5% of all live births. In such cases only the mother will have parental responsibility for the child. The unmarried father will have no formal legally recognised relationship with the child, although he can establish such a relationship by marrying the child’s mother or by taking other steps to acquire parental responsibility.

Parental responsibility is defined in the Children Order (Northern Ireland) 1995 as

"all the rights, duties, powers, responsibilities and authority which by law a parent of a child has in relation to the child and his property".

There is no exhaustive list of what a parent may or may not do for a child, but parental responsibility includes decision-making powers with regard to education, health care, religion and other everyday matters, and the law relies on the courts to determine the extent of parental responsibility.

The proposals in the Bill do not seek to pass judgement on the different family relationships which adults choose for themselves and their children. They seek to ensure that, where appropriate, the child’s interests are secured by the legal recognition of the relationship with the child’s father and others such as step-parents who share in the day-to-day care of the child.

A step-parent, whether a man or a woman, has no biological tie to the child of his or her spouse. However, the step-parent has demonstrated a commitment to a family relationship by marrying one of the parents of the child. The Bill provides that a step-parent would be able to acquire parental responsibility for the child of a spouse only under a court order.

The second policy aim of the Bill is to place on a statutory footing the existing common-law presumption that a man who is married to a woman between the conception and birth of the child will be presumed to be the father of the child. The additional policy aspect is to create a new legal presumption that a man who is registered as the father of the child in the Register of Births, Deaths and Marriages will be presumed, in law, to be the father of the child. This will, I believe, simply be a clarification of what is normally understood by the public, although this presumption is not a legal one under the existing law.

The Bill will also update the law on the range of tests that a court may direct to be used if a child’s parentage is in dispute. Since the passing of the Family Law Reform Order 1977, there have been significant advances in the technology available to prove or disprove biological parentage. Courts in Northern Ireland should now be able to rely on new technology in deciding cases of disputed parentage. The policy which this Bill seeks to implement has been under consideration in Scotland, England and Wales, and it is likely that similar proposals will be brought forward in due course. Traditionally family law has been very similar across the jurisdictions, with Northern Ireland law following the changes made elsewhere. In this instance I am pleased to say that the Assembly has an opportunity to take the lead. With the large population movement across these islands, there is a strong argument for maintaining a degree of parity in sensitive issues such as family law so that legal relationships between children and their parents are recognised, hence the responsibility for taking decisions for children. That is an important, practical point with regard to health care and education.

I will now address each of the substantive clauses of the Bill. Under the Children (Northern Ireland) Order 1995 unmarried fathers only acquire parental responsibility for their children if they take steps to demonstrate their commitment to the mother and child. The principal mechanisms are by entering into a parental responsibility agreement with the mother, which is registered in the High Court, or by obtaining an order from the court. Since the Children Order came into force those two mechanisms have not been used as often as had been hoped. As a result the vast majority of unmarried fathers have no formal legal relationship with their children.

In 1999 fewer than 200 parental responsibility orders were made in favour of unmarried fathers. A relatively small number of parental responsibility agreements have been registered with the courts, yet almost 7,000 children are born each year outside marriage.

Clause 1 provides that an unmarried father will have parental responsibility for his children if he and the mother jointly register the child’s birth. Members will note that the Bill provides that in Northern Ireland the unmarried father’s parental responsibility will be recognised if the birth of the child has been jointly registered in Scotland or England and Wales. A child’s birth can only be jointly registered by the mother and the unmarried father if they both agree to the procedure. This new provision will only apply to births registered after the Family Law Bill is introduced. Unmarried fathers of children already born, and jointly registered, will be advised of the availability of existing procedures.

Clause 1 also provides that a step-parent should be able to apply for a court order conferring responsibility for a child of his or her spouse. The court will always have the child’s welfare and best interests as the paramount consideration in deciding whether to make such an order. Where appropriate, the court takes the child’s views into account. The Bill provides that the acquisition of parental responsibility by a step-parent will not enable that step-parent to make decisions on the child’s adoption. This will prevent the new procedure from being used to circumvent the existing legislation regulating adoption. Where an unmarried father acquires parental responsibility by jointly registering the child’s birth, or where a step-parent acquires it by obtaining a court order, the court may terminate the parental responsibility if an application is made to the court. The fact that the court may do so provides a necessary protection for the child, and his or her mother, and is additional to the existing legislation in force to deal with violence in family relationships.

The new provisions in clause 2 create a statutory presumption of paternity which are not wholly innovative. The first part of the clause merely seeks to codify an existing presumption of common law, which is that a man married to a woman at any time between the conception and birth of a child is presumed to be that child’s father. This, of course, is the truth in the vast majority of cases.

Secondly, the clause provides that where a man is registered as the father of a child, he will be presumed, in law, to be the father of that child. Again, this is common sense, although it is not presumed under existing common law. Considering the content of this Bill, it seems sensible to include these provisions as a useful clarification of what is recognised as the reality in almost all cases. In both instances, of course, the presumption of paternity may be rebutted on the balance of probabilities.

Clause 3 is of a technical nature, because it amends existing provisions contained in the Family Law Reform (Northern Ireland) Order 1977. Under the existing legislation, if the paternity of a child is in dispute, a court may only direct that blood samples be taken from the child, or putative father, in order to determine parentage. The amendments in clause 3 will enable a court to direct that bodily samples, such as saliva or hair, may be taken for the purposes of scientific tests to determine parentage. This is undoubtedly a far less invasive and distressful procedure, particularly for children, than the existing procedures, and I consider it to be a major improvement on the human rights aspect of the current law.

Members will wish to know that the amendments in clause 3 were drafted alongside parallel amendments contained in clause 65 of the Child Support, Pensions and Social Security Bill, which the Assembly has already considered and agreed.

Following from what I have said, I hope Members will appreciate that, while this is a small law reform measure, it has some far-reaching effects. The policy conclusions which the Bill seeks to implement have been decided after the most rigorous consultation processes and close analysis of developments in family law, not only in Northern Ireland but in other jurisdictions, such as Scotland, England, Wales, the Republic of Ireland and further afield. I am convinced that these proposals represent a small, but significant, improvement to the existing law. Some may say that they go too far and others that they do not go far enough. When legislation seeks to regulate family relationships we are right to adopt a progressive yet cautious approach.

I will try to answer as many of the Members’ points and questions during my winding-up speech as possible. Of course, if I am not able to respond today, I will write to Members.

James Leslie (UUP, North Antrim)

I welcome the Bill that the Minister has introduced today. It will make a number of common- sense amendments to current law. I sometimes think we do too much "guinea-pigging", but I do not think there is any reason for caution in respect of this Bill. I welcome the fact that Northern Ireland is leading the way within the United Kingdom in these matters.

The existing law on parental responsibility is most likely to be largely misunderstood by a considerable number of unmarried fathers who are registered as a parent. There has been an assumption that that law puts them in a legal relationship with the child, but it does not. The change that the Bill will introduce to ensure that registering does constitute a legal relationship is very welcome, and in the vast majority of cases that will be appropriate. I know there may be certain circumstances in which it may not be deemed to be so, but they will be in the minority.

Can the Minister confirm that it is at the discretion of the mother of the child that joint registration will take place? It would thus remain the prerogative of the mother to decide whether she wants to register jointly with a male — the father of the child — and so create the legal relationship between that person and the child.

There have been some suggestions that measures in the Bill should have retrospective application. That has been resisted, and I agree with the decision. Generally, one has to be very cautious about applying legislation retrospectively. The existing procedures, under what will become the old law, are available to rectify a position were an unmarried father wants to be in a legal relationship and there is overall consent to that. One area where retrospective application would be very useful is in relation to tax cuts. However, that involves another aspect of the Minister’s remit and is a matter for another day.

Finally, the last part of the Bill, which recognises the major changes in science that enable DNA testing to establish parenthood, is sensible and welcome. I generally welcome the Bill and give it my support.

Francie Molloy (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. I welcome the Bill. This is an important stage we are going through. I speak as Chairperson of the Finance and Personnel Committee, which is dealing with the Bill. One of the issues that the Committee raised is that this type of Bill would probably be more suitable for, and sit better with, Health and Social Services or Social Development. We recommended to the Speaker that some of these Bills should be redirected. It is not a matter of getting out of the work — there are issues that would be dealt with by Health and Social Services or Social Development, and we need to have an input from those Departments and Committees to ensure that all the issues affected by this Bill are covered. However, the Bill is coming from the Office of Law Reform, so responsibility rests with Finance and Personnel. Our Committee will deal with it as quickly as possible.

It is important that we recognise the many issues in the Bill. There are human rights issues, competing rights issues, issues of father-and-children relationships and father-and-mother relationships. As the Deputy Chairperson has said, there is the matter of the mother having the final say and the matter of the Bill’s not being used as a means of exercising control without responsibility. That latter aspect was raised by a number of people.

Human rights issues — and competing rights within those —will be raised by the Bill. I hope that members of other Committees who have issues that they want to raise will come forward to the Finance and Personnel Committee and raise them in the public sessions that will be held.

I will also alert members of the public today that this is an issue that they can have an input in. The Finance and Personnel Committee wants to hear their views and there will be an open session for them to exercise that right. The Committee will deal with the Bill as speedily as possible, and I hope that we will have input from both Members and the public. Go raibh maith agat.

Alban Maginness (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast North)

I welcome the Bill. Mr Leslie mentioned its pioneering aspects, particularly the provision relating to unmarried fathers. If we value devolution and self-government, we should be innovative and pioneering. I will resist using the new verb that Mr Leslie has produced — "to guinea-pig" — but if one were to adopt that new verb, one should be prepared to be innovative. The term "guinea-pigging" is wrong because it suggests experimentation, and this is not necessarily experimentation.

The reason this Bill comes before the House, and why it is necessary to initiate these reforms, is that we have seen a social revolution in how people wish to live together. Regrettably the traditional marriage family unit is now almost on a par with people simply cohabiting. There are other reasons for people to cohabit: family breakdowns, marriage breakdowns, and complicated life situations. The traditional family unit has been eroded — sometimes through choice, and sometimes not. In any event, the important thing to remember when dealing with this Bill is that we have a new situation, and we have to deal with that.

In 1998 there were 6,743 live births outside marriage, which represents 28·5% of all live births. Interestingly 4,348 of those births were registered jointly — both parents were registered on the birth certificates of those children. This indicates — and research by the Department and the Office of Law Reform appears to confirm it — that people want to declare publicly they are the parents, and implicit in that is a father’s accepting responsibility for his child. This Bill goes a long way to recognise that and enable unmarried fathers to acquire parental responsibility, an important public demonstration by unmarried fathers of that responsibility. This option is the best choice on the parts of the Department and the Office of Law Reform to deal with the new situation in society, and we should welcome the Bill.

It is also fair to say that there has been a very low uptake of existing legal mechanisms. That indicates that people are unaware of them or find them too cumbersome. That is an important point to take into consideration. The low uptake does not represent an unwillingness to take up responsibility. If one looks at the overall figure, one sees that 64% of unmarried fathers and mothers are prepared to register a birth jointly, so there clearly is a willingness to accept responsibility.

The Minister’s proposed change to the law is to be welcomed. It is a common-sense way forward in this situation.

There was a reasonably good response to the Office of Law Reform’s consultation paper. The responses were of good quality. There was a consensus of support for this change. I also welcome the change in the way that parentage is determined, insofar as body samples will now be permitted. That is a significant step forward, because such procedures are less invasive than blood sampling. That is in keeping with the advance in our technology for determining parentage. I welcome that as well.

Monica McWilliams (NIWC, Belfast South)

The Minister used the word "cautious". Until the Bill goes through the Committee Stage I will remain cautious about what amendments will be accepted. This is clearly an important piece of legislation, particularly as it is to be introduced into Northern Ireland simultaneously with a number of other pieces of legislation such as the Child Support, Pensions and Social Security Bill, which we discussed the week before last. There is some overlap between these two pieces of legislation, and the explanatory notes acknowledge that.

I was pleased that the Chairperson of the Finance and Personnel Committee addressed the overlap of Statutory Committee business. This issue has come up before in the Business Committee, and the Chairperson said that the Speaker had been asked to address it. Where the subject matter of a piece of legislation falls within the remit of more than one Committee, the Chairpersons of those Committees should consult and agree to which Committee the matter should fall for disposal.

I am happy for this Bill to be considered by the Finance and Personnel Committee at this stage. However, the Health, Social Services and Public Safety Committee is currently dealing with an inter-country adoption Bill. That will be with us shortly. That Bill also addresses the issue of stepfathers and adoption. It may be important for our Committee to be asked to look at this, because Standing Order 48(2) goes further.

My question to the Minister is: was the question of which Committee should accept this Bill discussed in detail? I am aware that the Office of Law Reform’s responsibilities are part of the Minister’s portfolio, but given the particular details of this Bill, and given that the Department of Health, Social Services and Public Safety is currently dealing with children’s rights and parental responsibilities, that process must be elaborated.

At this stage it is going to the Department of Finance and Personnel. I suggest that the public be made aware of that. The public does not understand the workings of the Assembly. I know that the Office of Law Reform had a consultation paper. As this goes through the Committee Stage, many people may think that this is something to do with children — which it is — and will not, therefore, be aware that the Department of Finance and Personnel is dealing with it.

The Assembly ought to look at ways of publishing its future business, showing which Committees are accepting which pieces of legislation. That is what the Oireachtas does. That should be published in newspapers. Given the impact of this legislation, parents — particularly those who have children outside marriage — should be made aware of the changes we are about to make.

Regarding the overlapping of Committees, I hope that the Health, Social Services and Public Safety Committee will be invited to look at this issue and report to the Finance and Personnel Committee. When we came into the Assembly we made the important point that when dealing with children and families we should highlight interdepartmental responsibility and should not let anyone down by simply putting an issue into one box. Given the Health, Personal Social Services and Public Safety issues currently being discussed, I make a plea for us to have the right to make that input. I hope that will be welcome.

I would like the Minister to address further the issue, highlighted in his introduction, that a court may terminate some orders. This is probably the major concern. Alban Maginness addressed the issue of the changes in families and social trends. Some 7,000 children are born outside marriage, yet the Minister tells us that parental responsibility orders are in place for fewer than 200 of them. This will have a huge impact. The Minister may not be able to give me an immediate response, but how many of the 7,000 born outside marriage are jointly registered? Probably time will tell, given James Leslie’s understanding that joint registration is at the discretion of the mother. That may alarm some women, particularly in cases of violence. That is one of my major concerns, and I am therefore interested in the Minister’s point.

I would like more detail on this. Parental rights may be laid down by joint registration, but shortly thereafter enormous problems can arise. For the protection of children and women, a court needs to address that issue very carefully. I note, from the human rights section of the explanatory notes, that it was argued, in the case of McMichael versus the UK, that the non-automatic granting of parental rights to unmarried fathers was a justified interference with family life to protect the rights of others — women and children — from unmeritorious fathers.

Not much has changed since that case went through. That is where my major concern lies. I have worked closely with those experiencing the enormous problems that arise in cases of sexual and physical abuse towards both children and their mothers. An issue also arises about custodial rights. It is extremely important that that should be addressed very carefully.

On the issue of non-invasive methods of determining parenthood, it again looks as though a step forward is being taken. Anything non-invasive can only be useful, and we welcome the consultation process on this. The Children’s Law Centre, and others, may have some concerns on how this will be carried out.

One of the largest problems is the determining of biological parenthood in the case of a father. Clearly that matter has wide implications for the Department for Social Development — it caused quite a discussion in the Assembly when the issue of child support came up. The biggest concern is whether this is a piece of legislation that can enable biological fathers to be determined — so that child support can then be paid accordingly — or whether it is for humanitarian reasons. All Assembly Members have been lobbied by a group called Families Need Fathers, which argues that Northern Ireland is dissimilar to England and Wales in relation to the rights of fathers. I ask the Minister to address that matter.

12.00

It seems that the point we are making today is that we are the first to introduce this legislation. In its responses to consultation, Families Need Fathers argued that it would like the situation in Northern Ireland to be similar to the situation everywhere else. That is causing some confusion. I take it that we are the first.

It is also important that this is seen as a package of family law reform. I am familiar with the excellent work carried out by the Office of Law Reform to date. I take the opportunity to commend it for leading the field on family law in Northern Ireland. Were it not for the work of the Office of Law Reform many families would have suffered because of the consequences of not taking on board recent trends and changes that research showed would need to be noted when legislation was being introduced in Northern Ireland. With that in mind I hope that the Office of Law Reform will follow that excellent tradition and that we will not introduce legislation which might lead to problems further down the road.

Nigel Dodds (DUP, Belfast North)

I generally welcome the proposals contained in the Bill, and I concur with a number of the comments that have already been made. I want to make some specific points, and I look forward to dealing with the Bill when it comes before the Finance and Personnel Committee.

The clause relating to the presumption of parentage is, as the Minister has said, a tidying-up exercise. It puts existing common law on a statutory footing. That will not cause any great controversy.

The clause dealing with tests for determining parentage is a step forward. The Minister indicated that the clause is in line with proposals and practices elsewhere, and he mentioned other parts of the UK, the Republic of Ireland, and so on. I am keen to know whether this matter has been given statutory effect in any of those regions or countries. The issue of "guinea-pigging" has been raised. Are we the first to give this matter legislative effect? The Minister seemed to indicate that it was happening elsewhere. The Bill is welcome nonetheless.

My main point concerns the first substantive clause, which deals with how unmarried fathers acquire legal parental rights. As the Minister indicated, the Children (Northern Ireland) Order 1995 sets out the current position in relation to acquiring parental responsibility, which is defined as

"all the rights, duties, powers, responsibilities and authority which by law a parent of a child has in relation to the child and his property."

That takes us so far, but it does not set out what those rights, duties, powers and responsibilities are. It is almost nebulous. There are various provisions in law that deal with the issue. However, does the Minister, his Department or the Office for Law Reform have any plans for further defining those parental rights, duties powers, and so on? Have they considered what those rights should be as part of their work on this Bill or perhaps for a future Bill? They are not defined at present.

Mr Maginness pointed out the figure of 28·5% as the number of live births outside marriage in 1998 in Northern Ireland. He rightly highlighted the impact of that figure. More than a quarter of all babies in Northern Ireland are born outside marriage. That is a significant figure, and it represents an issue that needs to be addressed, a major social issue, for which there are many reasons. It is interesting that in the case of almost 60% of live births the unmarried father registered jointly with the mother and, in so doing, was making a statement about taking legal responsibility. In many cases, as has been said, they were probably not aware that, in law, this was a pretty meaningless exercise. The purpose of this legislation is very welcome. It will be in line with what people think they are signing up to.

The Minister said that under the new provisions an unmarried father could only register with the agreement of the mother. We will look at this in detail when it comes before the Committee, but I would like to ask whether that provision — that caveat, as it were — is contained in the legislation. Will it be a statutory provision that a mother can refuse to allow the unmarried father to be registered? If it is not in the Bill, I would be interested to know where it is contained. It is important, as a number of Members have said, given the fact that registration will have a legal effect, which it does not have at the moment. Clearly we will look at some of these issues in detail, but it would be helpful if the Minister could give us an outline answer at this stage to some of the questions that have been asked.

In general terms, this Bill is to be welcomed, and we will certainly give it a fair wind.

Dara O'Hagan (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. I support the idea that this Bill should have a cross-departmental focus, particularly when it comes to health, social services and public safety. It is a Bill that needs to be dealt with sensitively and sensibly. My party has already been in preliminary consultations with individuals and groups — the stakeholders in this area — and a number of concerns have been expressed, particularly by people working at the coalface with victims of abusive relationships. There are some concerns that the parental responsibility order will be used by some men as a means of controlling the mother. I am not saying that that will happen in every case. It is also very clear that there are unmarried fathers who want to play a very positive role in the upbringing of their children. There needs to be a balance of the rights of mothers, fathers and children.

There are also some concerns about the future. What impact will this have, for example, on schooling or if a child goes into hospital? A father who may not have had anything to do with the day-to-day upbringing of the child — and in most cases it is the mother who is responsible for the day-to-day rearing of the child — could have an equal right to register the child in school and make decisions about hospital treatment.

We need to be very careful. Many concerns have been expressed about this Bill. Like Monica McWilliams, I urge the Minister and his Department to ensure that members of the public are made fully aware that this Bill is before the Committee.

Wide consultation is needed with groups such as Families Need Fathers, women’s groups and lawyers, who are at the coalface defending and helping single mothers and victims of abusive relationships. I would like to see a good deal more debate on this, and I urge the Department to ensure that public consultation is as wide as possible during this Bill’s passage through the Committee Stage. Go raibh maith agat.

Mark Durkan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

Clearly, Members appreciate that this reform measure will have a significant impact on family relationships in Northern Ireland. I must rehearse certain points in order to deal with Members’ questions. In examining these law reform measures we have taken account of views expressed during the consultation which was carried out after the Office of Law Reform issued its proposals. I can reassure people that human rights and equality issues have been given particular consideration and that this will continue. We want to ensure that the rights of children are enhanced and that they are never compromised.

Mr Leslie welcomed the Bill and sought reassurance that the legislation would not apply retrospectively. The Bill will have no material effect on the legal responsibilities of parents of children whose births have already been registered. Similarly, we will ensure that there is a strong public awareness of the Bill. We will also try to ensure that a greater number of existing fathers are made more aware of the provisions available to them. Several Members have indicated that some fathers are making incorrect presumptions about current legal provisions. A widespread publicity campaign for the new legislation is expected.

Mr Leslie also asked me to confirm that joint registration is at the discretion of the mother. This is the case, and it is clear in the legislation. Mr Dodds asked if this is provided for in statute and, if so, how. The mother’s right to refuse registration by the father is already contained in the Births and Deaths Registration (Northern Ireland) Order 1976, and the Bill will not change this.

As Chairperson of the Finance and Personnel Committee, Mr Molloy made several points about procedure and asked which Committee would be best placed to consider the Bill. When the Assembly decides which Committee can best consider this legislation — whether it be an existing Committee or some other arrangement is made — I will support that choice. The Office of Law Reform is part of the Department of Finance and Personnel under statute and under the agreement. The Finance and Personnel Committee is there to advise and assist me as Minister, so I will consult with that Committee on any proposal for legislation within my ambit. I am open to suggestions from the Committee and the Assembly on where such a Bill might best be considered and on how best to take on board the insights and interests of other Committees. I am used to dealing with an increasing number of Committees these days, so one more would not be too much of a problem.

I hope that no question will arise of the legislation’s being orphaned because, while several Committees have a degree of interest in it, none has sufficient interest to deal with it all. We must not get into a situation where it is difficult to get Committees to consider legislation which the Office of Law Reform believes important for the Assembly. As Mr Molloy and Prof McWilliams have pointed out, we all need to give more thought to how best the Assembly can consider these matters.

(Mr Speaker in the Chair)

Mr Molloy also stressed the need to balance the human rights of children with those of parents. This Bill takes the rights of unmarried fathers and mothers and their children into account. What are the legally recognised rights and the legally presumed rights of unmarried fathers? In the agreement and in section 75 of the Northern Ireland Act, commitments and provisions were made to ensure equality of treatment, and one of the issues which confronts us is that of unmarried parents. We need to bear the equality principle in mind when deciding how to deal with some of these issues.

Mr Maginness noted that the legislation takes account of changing family relationships and referred to the many births which are jointly registered at present. Almost 64% of the births that take place outside marriage are jointly registered. Members may make their own assumptions about what that figure represents. Like Mr Maginness, Mr Dodds interprets it to mean that a large number of unmarried fathers want to take parental responsibility. It is probable that they believe that they are doing just that by jointly registering. They may not be aware that they need to take separate legal action to ensure that their responsibility and relationship are legally recognised.

Under the existing provisions of the Children (Northern Ireland) Order 1995 an unmarried father may acquire responsibility for a child. Obviously we want to make this information readily available, understandable and accessible in our new legislation. People need to be made aware of these changes to understand the system which will apply in future and to understand that it does not have retrospective application. To this end, there will be an information campaign.

Prof McWilliams raised a question on whether the power of the courts to terminate parental responsibility had been fully explored. Provision to terminate the recognition of parental responsibility already exists in statute and is not diminished by this legislation. Obviously, it will need application to the court.

Prof McWilliams also asked about the motive behind the legislation, possibly because of other legislation that has come through, and whether the legislation was more to do with enabling particular payments than with anything else. The purpose of the legislation is to encourage and to facilitate unmarried fathers to have a full and legal relationship with their children, something that the vast majority of unmarried fathers and mothers wish to see.

Prof McWilliams also made the important point that the Bill should not be seen in isolation but in the context of a much wider package of family law provisions and reforms. I want to join with Ms McWilliams in commending the work of the Office of Law Reform in keeping family law under constant review. The office has recently consulted on reforms to divorce law, to the physical punishment of children and to improvements in domestic violence legislation. I will bring any further reform measures to the Executive and Assembly.

The Bill’s intention is to implement the considered outcome of the reforms that were put out to consultation in July 1999. Other reforms may be forthcoming, but we can only bring forward those reforms that have been the subject of due consultation, especially as many Members have stressed the importance of public reflection.

Nigel Dodds raised the issue of the rationale behind the statutory presumptions of paternity and what happens elsewhere. Other jurisdictions are considering some of the issues we are currently discussing. There are proposals in Scotland, England and Wales that joint registration of a child’s birth should confer parental responsibility on the unmarried father. The Republic requires that a child’s birth should be jointly registered before a court will issue a consent order providing for an unmarried father to be a child’s guardian.

This Bill’s provisions are somewhat different. Clause 2 seeks to clarify the common law presumption about married fathers and recognise the de facto situation that a man registered as a child’s father is that child’s father. As Mr Dodds said, it is a tidying-up operation. Common law is increasingly being replaced by statute, which is more accessible and more easily understood. In relation to Mr Dodds’s question, Scotland already has those statutory presumptions.

Mr Dodds also spoke about the definition of parental responsibility. The term "parental responsibility" is now understood by the courts. We perhaps need to be careful about defining the term more specifically in legislation, as that may be unduly restrictive. The current position allows for a degree of flexibility to cover the wide variety of circumstances in which it is required before the courts. I have already dealt with some of Mr Dodds’s other points.

Dr O’Hagan raised the question of violence against women and children and, in particular, registered the concern of some key interests that the provisions of the Bill may create some greater risks. I stress that minimising the risk of violence in family relationships is a major priority of mine with the development of family law. The Bill will not increase the risk of violence between partners or towards their children. An unmarried father or a step-parent’s parental responsibility can always be terminated by court order if it can be proved that it would be in the interest of a child to do so.

The existing legislation on domestic violence, sponsored by the Department of Finance and Personnel through the work of the Office of Law Reform, is already recognised as one of the most progressive pieces of legislation of its kind. The operation of that legislation is currently under review to ensure that it affords all victims of domestic violence the protection they deserve.

Guidance issued to schools, education and library boards and teachers’ unions by the Department of Education on 16 June 1999 set out the current law on parental responsibility and its implications for schools. The guidance deals with the position of unmarried fathers, on which my officials were consulted. Officials in the Office of Law Reform will liaise with colleagues in education about the need to issue fresh guidance once the Assembly has finalised the content of the Bill.

The consultation paper on which the proposals are based was published in July 1999. It was sent to 185 individuals and organisations representing local community and voluntary groups, health boards and trusts, churches, the legal profession, academics, men’s and women’s groups, the judiciary and all the main political parties in Northern Ireland. Thirty-four substantive responses were received from all the main bodies involved. These were well considered and generally supportive. However, some points of concern have been registered, and we want to ensure that they, as well as all other considerations, are fully reflected on as the Bill goes through its Assembly stages.

I hope I have covered all the points raised by Members. If not, I am sure I will be made aware of that shortly. Any outstanding points will be dealt with in writing in due course.

Question put and agreed to.

Resolved:

That the Second Stage of the Family Law Bill [NIA Bill 4/00] be agreed.

Weights and Measures (Amendment) Bill: Consideration Stage

John (Speaker, Belfast East)

No amendments have been tabled, so I propose, by leave of the Assembly, to group the five clauses of the Bill.

Leave granted.

Clauses 1 to 5 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Schedule agreed to.

Long title agreed to.

John (Speaker, Belfast East)

That concludes the Assembly’s consideration of the Weights and Measures (Amendment) Bill, which now stands referred to the Speaker.

The sitting was suspended at 12.30 pm.

On resuming —

Office of First minister and deputy first minister

John (Speaker, Belfast East)

Questions 6, 12 and 13 will now receive written answers from the Department of Finance and Personnel. Also, I am advised that Mr George Savage and Mr Tom Benson are unable to be here and that the questions in their names have been withdrawn.

James Leslie (UUP, North Antrim)

2. asked the Office of the First Minister and Deputy First Minister to make a statement on the work of the British-Irish Council.

(AQO 237/00)

Seamus Mallon (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Newry and Armagh)

The British-Irish Council (BIC), established under the Good Friday Agreement, is an important forum for exchanging information and consultation in endeavouring to agree on matters of mutual interest. It has the potential to benefit all the regions represented. To date, there has been one plenary meeting of the BIC and one sectoral meeting. The Council agreed a programme of work at the plenary meeting on 17 December 1999. It was decided that five areas of work would be taken forward in sectoral format. The Irish Government are leading on drugs, the Scottish Executive and the Cabinet of the National Assembly for Wales are jointly working on social inclusion, the Northern Ireland Executive will take the lead on transport, Jersey will lead on the knowledge economy and the British Government on the environment.

A sectoral meeting on the environment was held in London on 9 October 2000. The Minister of the Environment and the Minister of Education attended. Earlier today, the Minister of the Environment made a statement on the meeting, in which he informed the Assembly that the environment sectoral group discussed a wide range of future priority areas. In the next few months, that group will consider radioactive waste from Sellafield, the impact of climate change and waste management. It is anticipated that the next plenary meeting of the BIC will take place this month in Dublin and will focus on the issue of drugs.

James Leslie (UUP, North Antrim)

I thank the Deputy First Minister for his comprehensive answer and trust that his worthy aspirations will soon be transposed into action. I hope that the frequency of the meetings will increase.

In view of the legacy of poor transport co-ordination between Northern Ireland and the rest of the United Kingdom resulting from direct rule, can the Deputy First Minister assure me that specific attention will be paid to improving transport links between Northern Ireland and Scotland and the north of England?

Seamus Mallon (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Newry and Armagh)

The Member raises an important point. Transport links with cities in Scotland, England and Wales are crucial for the people of Northern Ireland. This matter was raised at the first plenary meeting of the BIC. It was also raised at the first meeting of the British-Irish Intergovernmental Conference, and it will be deliberated upon further at future BIC meetings. I have no doubt that the Minister of the Environment will wish to take it forward.

Eugene McMenamin (Social Democratic and Labour Party, West Tyrone)

Can the Deputy First Minister assure us that the transport sectoral meeting will proceed within the BIC and North/South Ministerial Council context? Will he press the Minister for Regional Development to fulfil his obligations? Failing that, will the First Minister or the Deputy First Minister assume this urgent responsibility?

Seamus Mallon (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Newry and Armagh)

The Northern Ireland Executive will be leading the transport sectoral meeting of the British-Irish Council. The First Minister and I will be responsible for taking this issue forward in the absence of co-operation from the Minister responsible, the Minister for Regional Development. In relation to the North/South Ministerial Council (NSMC) transport sectoral meeting, the First Minister and I will be pressing the Minister for Regional Development to meet the responsibilities of his office, and we shall ourselves take responsibility for proceeding on this issue. An NSMC transport meeting has been proposed for the second half of November.

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

Can the Office of the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister confirm that the British-Irish Council will continue in its present format and that the Office of the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister will not stop IRA/Sinn Féin Ministers from attending?

Seamus Mallon (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Newry and Armagh)

I thank the Assemblyman for his question. The British-Irish Council meetings will proceed. The First Minister and the Deputy First Minister will make nominations and, as usual, will bring those nominations to the attention of the Executive and, through it, to the Assembly.

Alex Maskey (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. In the light of the First Minister’s recent stance on the attendance of Sinn Féin Ministers at North/South Ministerial Council meetings, what assurance do we have that the future functioning of the British-Irish Council will take place without such undemocratic interference, which is also a breach of his Pledge of Office?

Seamus Mallon (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Newry and Armagh)

I thank the Assemblyman for his question, which is essentially the same as Mr Poots’s. The answer remains unchanged. I repeat: nominations will be made on the basis of equity and reported to the Executive and, through it, to the Assembly.

Sammy Wilson (DUP, Belfast East)

First, I would like to say how nice it is to see that the Deputy First Minister and the First Minister have kissed and made up, and are sitting together again.

Does the Deputy First Minister agree that, given his previous response, it is somewhat hypocritical of the First Minister to have excluded IRA/Sinn Féin from meetings of the North/South Ministerial Council while at the same time finding their presence at the British-Irish Council acceptable? Is that not yet another example of a tame slap on the wrist for Sinn Féin, intended more to keep his party dissidents in line than to deal with the question of terrorists in Government?

Seamus Mallon (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Newry and Armagh)

I thank the Assemblyman for the question, which — believe it or not — we had anticipated. I am glad he recognises that the First Minster and I have a very good personal relationship and that, in any political process, there will be divergences of opinion. The strength of any such process is that those divergences are overcome. I can assure the Assemblyman that the First Minister and I will do all we can to ensure that the institutions with which we are involved, and for which we have responsibility, proceed.

John (Speaker, Belfast East)

Before a point of order is raised, I should say that I am not entirely sure — I shall have to check up on it — whether kissing and making up is parliamentary behaviour.

Alan McFarland (UUP, North Down)

3. asked the Office of the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister to provide an update on progress with a review of public administration; and to make a statement.

(AQO 234/00)

David Trimble (UUP, Upper Bann)

The completion of the review of public administration is an important aspect of the draft Programme for Government. As that document makes clear, the Executive are committed to greater accountability at regional level than in the past and will expect greater accountability from all services through a more efficient and effective structure of administration at local level. Officials are currently carrying out preparatory work on the review for the Executive, and it is planned that the terms of reference and organisation of the review will be further considered by the Executive later this month.

Alan McFarland (UUP, North Down)

Can the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister confirm that, as a matter of urgency, the review will consider the large number of expensive and unelected quangos that have had such a detrimental effect in the past 25 years?

David Trimble (UUP, Upper Bann)

It is called a review of public administration and is, as such, intended to cover comprehensively all the bodies outside the Departments. The Member will recall that, as far back as December 1998, when we agreed on the departmental structure, we gave a commitment to examine the administrative structure outside the Departments and to do what we could to achieve greater efficiency and to balance some of the additional costs resulting from the enlarged central structure.

Consequently, we will be looking seriously — and hope the review will too — at a whole range of issues, including the various quangos. I am not saying that all quangos are bad. We will look critically to see what is necessary, what will contribute to greater efficiency and accountability and what can be done better elsewhere, which could result in a number of different answers. The review will look at those things. Currently, we are examining the scope of the review, which will be comprehensive, and making the arrangements. We hope that this will be done as quickly as possible.

Peter Robinson (DUP, Belfast East)

It is outrageous that the Minister responsible for the Department of the Environment should make a statement on his responsibilities at a party political gathering. The only other public utterance on this matter was from the First Minister at the SOLACE conference. They should have come instead to the Assembly or the Committee to give their views and say that a review was under way. Will the First Minister tell us what representations he has made to get the next local government elections postponed and thus save the hides of his Ulster Unionist Council colleagues from defeat — doing a "Burnside"?

David Trimble (UUP, Upper Bann)

The Member’s initial comments are completely wide of the mark. If he had only listened to my previous answer he would have heard that this issue was raised back in December 1998 and has been consequently mentioned here several times. I recall answering questions on this subject in the Assembly. The pretended shock of the Member that a statement was made by the Minister, quite properly, at our party conference is rather laughable.

With regard to his second question, he will discover how wrong his comments are. I would advise him to look at the ‘Belfast Telegraph’ opinion poll of a few weeks ago and see how the standing of my party has risen among the public while that of his party continues to decline.

Ian Paisley (DUP, North Antrim)

4. asked the Office of the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister to detail how the Programme for Government has been rural proofed.

AQO 240/00

Seamus Mallon (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Newry and Armagh)

The draft Programme for Government laid before the Assembly on 24 October recognises the importance of the rural economy and society to the life of Northern Ireland, and the need to ensure that full account is taken of rural issues when developing major policies and programmes. Rural proofing is a concept that involves reviewing all major policies and programmes in a structured way to ensure that any rural dimension has been fully taken into account at the formulation stage. It is a commitment, in the draft Programme for Government, that all major policies and programmes will be rural proofed. The Minister of Agriculture and Rural Development will take the lead on that issue and will establish a group to set out an overall approach to rural and countryside issues.

Ian Paisley (DUP, North Antrim)

The Deputy First Minister will be aware that the First Minister has just recommended that my Friend read the ‘Belfast Telegraph’. I recommend that he read today’s ‘Belfast Telegraph’ article on the pig industry. The amazing and tragic figures show that, within three years, the number of farmers in the Province with pig herds has more than halved — falling from 2,207 to only 960. If this trend continues we will have no viable pig industry in Northern Ireland.

Can he explain to the House — long before we have a report on the rural proofing that he is concerned about, and that I and my Committee are concerned about — what steps he can take now to step in and deal with this crisis?

Seamus Mallon (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Newry and Armagh)

This is a serious question about a serious issue. The Member will recognise that it is a matter to be dealt with specifically by the Minister of Agriculture and Rural Development. He should look at, as I am sure he has looked at, the various measures, which I will not repeat ad infinitum, in relation to agriculture that are included in the Programme for Government.

Although I cannot give the Member any assurances in relation to the pig industry, I share his concern, which I will convey immediately to the Minister of Agriculture and Rural Development. I have no doubt that she will contact him in relation to that consultation.

P J Bradley (Social Democratic and Labour Party, South Down)

In the context of rural proofing, does the Minister share the farming community’s anxiety about flood damage and losses due to unharvested crops and the risk to livestock and households? Will Northern Ireland receive a share of the additional resources being promised by the British Government to combat the effects of flooding?

Seamus Mallon (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Newry and Armagh)

That question is particularly relevant at this time. Members will join with me in expressing sympathy for people in York and in various parts of England, Wales and the Republic of Ireland who are suffering dreadfully from flooding. I want to associate myself with the Member’s concern about our own farmers and the problems that they face, especially in relation to livestock and certain crops.

I can assure the Member that Northern Ireland will receive its full Barnett share of the £51 million package announced by the Deputy Prime Minister, John Prescott. That amount should be approximately £1·7 million. That aid package will be allocated over the coming years. Officials in the Department of Finance and Personnel will liaise with the Treasury on that.

The Department of Agriculture and Rural Development’s Rivers Agency, as the drainage and flood defence authority in Northern Ireland, already has 100 flood-alleviation projects at various stages of investigation and development. The Executive will keep a close eye on the issue, which has enormous implications not only for the farming community but throughout rural and urban Northern Ireland. We will do everything we possibly can to help those who unfortunately may be affected by it.

David Ford (Alliance, South Antrim)

I thank the Minister for his references to the urgency of rural proofing in Northern Ireland. Will he accept, however, that there are two major problems which arise from the Robson index of deprivation? First, it is significantly out of date. Secondly, particularly in rural areas, much poverty is hidden within more prosperous wards which does not appear in the index. Can the Minister give us an undertaking that those measures will be re-examined to ensure that we can rural proof properly in the future?

Seamus Mallon (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Newry and Armagh)

That is a question that we are all concerned about. It is tempting to think of poverty in terms of urban areas. All of us know that this type of poverty exists in rural areas. It is more a lace-curtain poverty than may be obvious in urban areas. The Robson indicators are being re-examined in the light of the circumstances that we face today. It is essential that we all recognise the isolation and deprivation that exist in rural areas. That is why it is so important that we have rural proofing in relation to every aspect of the Administration.

Eileen Bell (Alliance, North Down)

5. asked the Office of the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister to clarify the relationship between the Victims Unit in their office and the Victims Liaison Unit in the Northern Ireland Office; and to make a statement.

(AQO 246/00)

David Trimble (UUP, Upper Bann)

During direct rule, after receipt of Sir Kenneth Bloomfield’s report ‘We Will Remember Them’, the Northern Ireland Office set up the Victims Liaison Unit. After devolution, and in recognition of the fact that many of the issues faced by victims fell within the transferred field, a Victims Unit was set up in the Office of the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister.

In broad terms, the Victims Unit within OFMDFM has responsibility for all transferred matters, with the NIO retaining responsibility for reserved matters. The Junior Ministers in OFMDFM have met with Adam Ingram to discuss the most appropriate division of responsibilities between the two units. They are due to meet again soon.

Officials from both units are working closely together and endeavouring to ensure that the Northern Ireland Office and this Administration adopt a co-ordinated approach to meet victims’ needs.

Eileen Bell (Alliance, North Down)

I thank the First Minister for his answer. I am sure that he agrees that this sensitive area requires a focused and one-track approach, because I — like other Members, I am sure — have heard from individual victims and victims’ organisations that they are concerned about what is happening. They are unsure about the situation. I ask the First Minister to take that on board for future meetings.

David Trimble (UUP, Upper Bann)

I appreciate the difficulties that have resulted from having two different groupings — one in the Northern Ireland Office and one in this Administration. That is necessary at present, because some of the issues that the Victims Liaison Unit deals with are clearly reserved matters, such as compensation.

In addition, this Administration has only recently established a Victims Unit. That is still developing, which is why we are currently engaged in discussions with the Northern Ireland Office. I refer the Member to the Programme for Government, which, I think, identifies six specific actions. We intend to develop a programme. We need to work with the Victims Liaison Unit, and we hope to make matters as user-friendly as possible for the various individuals and interests involved, but at present it is necessary for bifurcation.

Nigel Dodds (DUP, Belfast North)

When dealing with the issue of victims, will the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister take into account the great hurt and concern of victims’ families and others in the community about the amount of public money given in recent years to the victims of violence as compared to the amounts given to perpetrators of violence, many of whom were released prematurely from prison at the behest of the First Minister, the Deputy First Minister and their supporters?

Will he also accept that the contrast between cash given to terrorists and cash given to victims adds insult to the injury that was inflicted on families when they saw those who perpetrated crimes against their loved ones walking free, seemingly without any justice being meted out?

David Trimble (UUP, Upper Bann)

We are, of course, keenly conscious of victims’ feelings and the need to ensure that victims’ interests are not forgotten. That is why the Bloomfield Report was originally commissioned; that is why we are working on the matter. One difficulty is that, until recently, victims did not organise themselves in the way that other groups did. That has caused problems. There is also — I have to be frank — a problem caused by people who wish to exploit victims for political purposes. That is generally deprecated.

We want to develop our own operation in order to ensure that proper concern is observed. I cannot go into the question of funding, because we are not responsible for any funding at present. The Victims Liaison Unit and the core funding scheme that it administers deal with current funding. I am not in a position to comment on that. Our own unit, which is now being established, has among its objectives the development and management of a specific measure under the Peace II programme. We will be happy to accept responsibility for the operation of that measure when it starts.

Alex Maskey (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. Given that the Bloomfield Report actually reinforced the notion of a hierarchy of victims in many ways, can the First and Deputy First Ministers ensure, or at least try to guarantee, that the Victims Unit will in no way agree with that notional hierarchy? Although Members have different views about victims, there is obviously a range of victims in our society. Can the First and the Deputy First Ministers assure us that they will work to ensure that the Victims Unit reaches out proactively to all victims and organisations?

David Trimble (UUP, Upper Bann)

It is the intention of the Victims Unit to be comprehensive when dealing with, or trying to address, the problems of victims. The question is, what is the definition of a victim? An all-encompassing definition of a victim is extremely difficult to determine, particularly as there is an element of self-definition involved. The interdepartmental working group has adopted the following definition:

"the surviving injured of violent conflict-related incidents and those close relatives or partners who care for them, along with those close relatives and partners who mourn their dead."

Monica McWilliams (NIWC, Belfast South)

Will the First Minister at this stage — in the same way that he has been very proactive on the suggestion that we transfer the justice issue to Northern Ireland as soon as possible — consider a deadline for the closure of the Northern Ireland Office Victims Liaison Unit? To have two offices running simultaneously is creating confusion among the public.

Does he agree that although Assembly Members may understand the difference between transferred matters and reserved matters, victims do not? Does he also agree that the sooner Junior Ministers are clearly identified with a strategy for victims, the better it will be for those dealing with victims throughout the country?

David Trimble (UUP, Upper Bann)

The Member is aware of the difference between reserved matters and transferred matters, and, at the moment, that necessarily produces a distinction between those matters still within the remit of the Northern Ireland Office. I would be delighted if we could resolve that situation through the devolution of more responsibility to this Administration.

We have set ourselves a target — for the Victims Liaison Unit and those transferred matters for which we are responsible — that by April 2001 we will put in place a cross-departmental strategy to ensure that victims’ needs are met effectively. That strategy will be of some help to groups that currently have difficulty in knowing who to approach.

John (Speaker, Belfast East)

As the Member due to ask the next question is not in the Chamber, we will move to question 8.

Patricia Lewsley (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Lagan Valley)

8. asked the Office of the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister to detail what financial provision has been made for the Equality Commission to enforce disability rights.

(AQO 253/00)

David Trimble (UUP, Upper Bann)

The Equality Commission has an overall budget of £6·949 million for the current year. That includes additional resources of £1 million that had been provided to the Equality Commission to enable it to carry out the enforcement of disability rights. Those rights are contained in legislation that was initiated in the Assembly. The Executive’s budget proposals, which were announced by the Minister of Finance and Personnel on 17 October, include the continuation of this £1 million funding in the year 2001-02.

Patricia Lewsley (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Lagan Valley)

I ask that our Disability Rights Task Force ensure that it pays particular attention to the issue of employment Directives.

David Trimble (UUP, Upper Bann)

The Member is referring to the recent EU Equal Treatment Directive, which is an important matter that is currently under consideration. The Directive has an impact on the operation of the UK Disability Rights Task Force, which reported, on which cross-border departments were in the process of considering their response. We now must consider the report in the light of the Equal Treatment Directive in order to ensure that what is done gives full effect to the directive.

Jim Wells (DUP, South Down)

Can the First Minister assure us that this new unit will have the same powers of investigation as the Equality Commission. Will it be able to search out injustices when it comes to this important issue?

David Trimble (UUP, Upper Bann)

We are talking about the powers of the Equality Commission. The Equality Commission will have those powers. The Disability Rights Task Force was established to advise the Government, and it reported in December 1999. Its report is being considered in the light of the Equal Treatment Directive in order to ensure that what must be done is done over a wide range of services. The Equality Commission will police that activity.

Seamus Close (Alliance, Lagan Valley)

9. asked the Office of the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister if it is intended to appoint a children’s commissioner for Northern Ireland.

(AQO 250/00)

Seamus Mallon (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Newry and Armagh)

The Executive are determined to ensure that our arrangements for protecting children and upholding children’s rights are based on best practice. We will carefully examine key developments through Europe, including the Waterhouse Report on child abuse in north Wales, the appointment of a Children’s Commissioner in Wales, a Children’s Rights Director in England and an Ombudsman for Children in the Republic of Ireland.

We will also look at the roles of commissioners for children in the Scandinavian countries. In the light of those developments, the Executive Committee will consider what new arrangements are needed here when formulating proposals for the Children’s Fund.

John (Speaker, Belfast East)

The time for Questions to the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister is up. Unfortunately, not only the Member who put question 9 but several others who indicated a wish to ask questions will be unable to ask supplementary questions on this occasion.

Eddie McGrady (Social Democratic and Labour Party, South Down)

1. asked the Minister of Agriculture and Rural Development if she will detail what action has been taken to resolve the problem outlined by the Agriculture and Rural Development Committee in its report ‘Retailing in Northern Ireland — A Fair Deal for the Farmer’ in relation to the absence of a comprehensive resource to assist farmers to identify, produce, package and distribute products to suit both their circumstances and those of the market; and if she will make a statement.

(AQO 224/00)

Brid Rodgers (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Upper Bann)

As I said before, I welcomed the Agriculture and Rural Development Committee’s report as a balanced and pragmatic contribution to the debate on the difficulties currently facing the agrifood sector.

The Department already devotes considerable effort and resources to enable farmers and the wider agrifood industry to meet market demands and exploit new opportunities. An example of that is the ongoing comprehensive programme of educating and training farmers to develop their business management skills and meet customer demands. That involves working with farm businesses and producer groups to develop the competencies necessary to identify market trends and respond positively to them.

The Department of Agriculture and Rural Development also assists, through grant aid and technical support, the development of new technologies, products and processes for use by all links in the food chain. Collaboration in the marketing of produce is encouraged by providing financial support through the marketing development scheme. Capital grant assistance to improve the competitiveness of the agrifood sector is also provided through the processing and marketing grant scheme. I can confirm that that work is being enhanced.

My announcement earlier this year of the development of a farmers’ electronic portal — for which £240,000 has been provided this year, with a similar sum next year, coupled with associated enhanced IT facilities at the Department of Agriculture and Rural Development colleges — will help producers to take advantage of the opportunities that exist through information and communications technology, and e-commerce. The proposed additional funds of £1·4 million per annum that are to be allocated to support farm business development will also help in a practical way to enable primary producers to improve business performance.

The £2 million per annum being allocated to the beef sector to improve beef quality will help primary producers better meet the demands of the market.

(Madam Deputy Speaker [Ms Morrice] in the Chair)

Eddie McGrady (Social Democratic and Labour Party, South Down)

I thank the Minister for her comprehensive reply — [Interruption].

Jane Morrice (NIWC, North Down)

Order.

Eddie McGrady (Social Democratic and Labour Party, South Down)

In view of what the Minister has said, and the reference to the many facilities available to make farming viable, does she consider that the adoption of a new attitude by the Department to treat farms as businesses and employ the services of other agencies, such as local enterprise development agencies with proper grant-aid and technology structures, would be useful to farmers in the transition between the farm gate and the market?

Will she also consider the great difficulties that the farming community has with regard to diversification, particularly when farm incomes and farmers’ resources are at an all-time low? That transition is very difficult.

As a corollary, will the Minister make herself aware of the consequences of farmers leaving the land or diversifying? Who will then be custodian of our agricultural heritage and countryside?

Brid Rodgers (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Upper Bann)

I agree with many of the issues that Mr McGrady has raised. My answer addressed many of those issues with regard to helping farms progress as businesses. The Department of Agriculture and Rural Development enables farmers to treat their farms as businesses and to increase their competitiveness in the market.

The Member raised the issue of treating farms as small businesses for grant purposes, and many farmers have posed that question. For example, LEDU grants are available for start-up businesses, but the farming community sometimes feels that it is not entitled to them. The LEDU remit does not cover primary production. However, LEDU would consider issuing grants to farmers who wish to establish processing businesses and other businesses which fall under the diversification category. I encourage farmers to apply for this assistance, and I hope that LEDU will respond because farmers feel hard done by. It is possible to get access to those grants for certain businesses under diversification.

Ian Paisley (DUP, North Antrim)

The Minister is aware that the Assembly unanimously passed the resolution on the report mentioned in the question. How many of the recommendations in the report did the Department of Agriculture and Rural Development accept and bring to fruition through specially set-up machinery? How many recommendations have been acted upon? That is an important question. Today’s ‘Belfast Telegraph’ features a report on the serious situation in the pig industry. More than half the herds have been lost in three years, and if any more are lost there will be no viable pig industry in Northern Ireland. The time has come for the Minister to announce the number of Agriculture Committee recommendations that her Department has accepted and will act on.

Brid Rodgers (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Upper Bann)

The report contains recommendations directed at all the links in the food marketing chain, as well as the Department of Health, Social Services and Public Safety and the Department of the Environment. In my reply to the Committee, I was pleased to confirm that in most cases the Department of Agriculture and Rural Development is already developing a range of initiatives aimed at addressing the underlying issues and concerns. Some of the proposals were for the industry and not the Department to develop. Some proposals would involve EU state-aid rules in which my Department would not be allowed to intervene. However, I am developing all the proposals that are within my powers, and I have already outlined some of them to the Committee.

Dr Paisley mentioned the pig industry. I am aware of the difficulties there. I also share the Member’s frustration at the European Commission’s slow response to our attempt to gain permission to restructure.

Several questions have been raised, and as soon as we responded to them other questions were sent to us. It has been a slow process. I raised the issue with Nick Brown, who wrote to Commissioner Fischler. I raised it again at the previous meeting of regional Ministers, and Nick Brown wrote to assure me that he personally had raised the matter with Commissioner Fischler. I await a response, but I have done everything in my power to ensure that we proceed as quickly as possible with the restructuring of the pig industry.

James Leslie (UUP, North Antrim)

The length of the Minister’s replies perhaps answers the question about why the cost of administering the Department is starting to exceed the sector’s revenue.

I am sure the Minister will agree that we cannot eat a book of regulations, no matter how attractive the wrapper. Yet we have book-loads of regulations that prescribe much of our own produce as not fit for sale unless it passes an expensive panoply of health and hygiene tests. On the very same supermarket shelves, consumers can buy imported foodstuffs that have not been subject to anything like the same degree of scrutiny. How does the Minister propose to level this most unfairly tilted playing field?

Brid Rodgers (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Upper Bann)

I am aware of the issue and of the frustrations experienced by our producers in having to adhere to the regulations, particularly those that relate to welfare. The issue was raised at a recent cross- departmental meeting of Ministers in London. It was agreed that it would be brought forward to the World Trade Organisation discussions with a view to making welfare regulations mandatory in all countries. I hope that that goes some way towards dealing with the issue.

Gardiner Kane (DUP, North Antrim)

Can the Minister assure the House that, in the event of evidence emerging about a price-fixing cartel, she will leave no stone unturned in any subsequent investigation?

Brid Rodgers (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Upper Bann)

I am aware of allegations of a beef cartel in Northern Ireland, and that the Office of Fair Trading (OFT) is considering those allegations. It is quite proper that any evidence of a breach of competition rules should be submitted to the OFT, and my Department will, of course, assist in whatever way possible. I assure the Member that should the OFT, discover any abuse of power I would press for immediate action to combat that.

Billy Armstrong (UUP, Mid Ulster)

2. asked the Minister of Agriculture and Rural Development if she will detail the progress made towards having the rural development plan for Northern Ireland for 2000-06 adopted by the European Commission; and if she will make a statement?

(AQO 232/00)

Brid Rodgers (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Upper Bann)

I am very pleased that the plan has now been approved. Negotiations were protracted and difficult, particularly in relation to the changeover from the old headage-based hill livestock compensation allowance (HLCA) scheme to the new area-based less-favoured area (LFA) support scheme. We have achieved a very positive outcome with increased resources and a safety net in the first three years of the new LFA scheme. I was able to secure substantial additional funding for the LFA scheme from the Treasury worth £32 million over its first four years of operation. That means that the financing of support for hill farmers is now more secure than it has been for several years.

Furthermore, the safety-net arrangements will minimise the losses to those farmers who will see a reduction in their level of payment. As well as the new LFA scheme, the plan also provides for a significant increase in the uptake of agrienvironment schemes and allows for a continuation of the forestry measures, which opens up new opportunities for farmers under those programmes. Overall, the plan is worth £266 million to Northern Ireland agriculture from 2000 to 2006.

Billy Armstrong (UUP, Mid Ulster)

Although I note that approval for the Northern Ireland rural development plan has come later than that for England and Wales, I welcome the fact that it has now been approved by the EU Committee on Structures and Rural Development (STAR). Perhaps the Minister would indicate when she expects full Commission approval. She will be aware of Commissioner Fischler’s recent commitment to greater transparency in farm policy. Will she give a similar commitment to greater transparency, beginning with a commitment to keep the Agriculture and Rural Development Committee better informed of the process in such matters as the rural development plan?

Brid Rodgers (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Upper Bann)

The first part of the question related to when the Commission’s approval would come through. It takes three to four weeks to get formal approval, so we would expect to receive that approval four weeks from 24 October.

I am not sure about the second part of the question, which seems to imply that I have not been open with the Committee. I have consulted with the Committee insofar as it has been possible to do so.

When the plan was in preparation there was something of a hiatus in the proceedings of the Assembly, and that created a time lag. As I have explained to the Committee, I would have been in a better position to consult it had there been more time. I have given the Committee an assurance that I will attempt to do so in future on the basis, of course, that we do not have any more suspensions, hiatuses or breaks in our business in the meantime.

P J Bradley (Social Democratic and Labour Party, South Down)

How will the LFA scheme contribute to achieving environmental objectives?

Brid Rodgers (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Upper Bann)

The scheme includes a general requirement that all farmers observe a code of good farming practice. That will make a major environmental contribution and will be reinforced by a requirement for a minimum stocking of 0·2 livestock units per hectare, which will guard against the problem of under-grazing. To counter over-grazing, all farms with stocking densities above 1·8 livestock units per hectare will be inspected to ensure that they are being farmed responsibly. In addition to the provisions in the LFA scheme, the separate agrienvironment measures in the plan will provide assistance to farmers specifically to encourage good environmental practice.

Eamonn ONeill (Social Democratic and Labour Party, South Down)

Can the Minister give us some details on the recent strategic study into organic farming, carried out under the rural development plan?

Brid Rodgers (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Upper Bann)

I recently announced the strategic study into the organic sector in Northern Ireland because of the increasing market opportunities for producers of organic goods. I wish to encourage the development of a vibrant organic sector in Northern Ireland. It is important that it should be developed strategically, and I thought that a study would be the best way to take things forward. In making my decision, I was guided by the valuable work and recommendations of the organic farming liaison group, which draws its membership from the organic sector and the farming unions, as well as officials from the Department. In the organic sector, market demand is ahead of supply and we should be homing in on the opportunities that it presents.

Roy Beggs (UUP, East Antrim)

What is the Department of Agriculture and Rural Development doing to support and promote the establishment of a rural community network in south Antrim and parts of east Antrim? Those are the only parts of Northern Ireland that are not covered by a rural community network. I am concerned that there should be equality of access to the provisions of the rural development plan and the funding from Europe.

Brid Rodgers (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Upper Bann)

I cannot answer that specific question, but I know, in general terms, that there have been areas in Northern Ireland that have not taken full advantage of the rural development opportunities available since 1991. The Department is anxious to help the communities that have not previously taken advantage of the plan and ensure that they do so this time around.

I can provide the Member with a more specific written reply, but I assure him that I am very aware of the issue and anxious to do something about it.

Kieran McCarthy (Alliance, Strangford)

3. asked the Minister of Agriculture and Rural Development what uptake in the organic aid scheme and the countryside management scheme can be funded on the basis of the draft Budget allocation announced on 17 October.

(AQO 259/00)

Brid Rodgers (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Upper Bann)

The organic farming scheme and the countryside management scheme are funded by the additional moneys delivered by modulation. They are not dependent on the draft Budget allocation announced on 17 October. The modulation money will allow us to work towards the target of having 1,000 producers farming organically and 4,000 entrants to the countryside management scheme by 2006, which is the period covered by our rural development plan.

Kieran McCarthy (Alliance, Strangford)

I welcome the Minister’s response. Will she be able to provide enough advisory officers to assist farmers in developing their plans?

Brid Rodgers (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Upper Bann)

I hope and expect that we will be able to provide the necessary expertise and assistance to farmers wishing to go organic.

Eugene McMenamin (Social Democratic and Labour Party, West Tyrone)

Can the Minister inform me when the uptake of agrienvironment schemes is expected? When will the organic farming and countryside management schemes open for application from farmers?

Brid Rodgers (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Upper Bann)

I will first deal with the agrienvironment schemes. The environmentally sensitive areas (ESA) scheme — in which 4,500 farmers participate, with 145,000 hectares under agreement — is considered to be close to its optimum uptake. It is anticipated in the rural development regulation plan that, by 2006, the organic farming scheme will grow from its present level of 20 farmers, with 1,000 hectares under agreement, to 1,000 farmers, with 30,000 hectares. The countryside management scheme, which will have its first entrants later this year, will have 4,000 participant farmers, with 150,000 hectares under agreement.

The second question related to the date for applications to the organic and countryside management schemes. As Mr Armstrong has already mentioned, the EU Commission approved the rural development plan on 24 October. The statutory rules necessary to bring those schemes into effect are currently the subject of consultation with the agriculture industry and will shortly come before the Committee for scrutiny. On completion of those necessary steps, the legislation will be brought forward as soon as possible, and I am anxious to be able to open the schemes.

Robert McCartney (UKUP, North Down)

Is the Minister aware of Dublin Corporation’s scheme to convert human waste into organic pellets for spreading on land? Apparently, 22,000 tonnes are due for production this year. It helps both organic farming and the disposal of human waste. Are there any similar projects in mind to help organic farming in Northern Ireland?

Brid Rodgers (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Upper Bann)

Was it Dublin Corporation?

Robert McCartney (UKUP, North Down)

Yes.

Brid Rodgers (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Upper Bann)

I was not sure.

I am not aware of that scheme, and I would be very interested to learn more about it. Because I am not aware of it, I do not know if my Department has any plans about pellets. However, I will certainly enquire about it and let the Member have a written answer.

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

4. asked the Minister of Agriculture and Rural Development if she is aware of an outbreak of brown rot in the Scottish potato crop and, if so, what steps she has taken to ensure that it will not contaminate the potato crop in Northern Ireland.

(AQO 226/00)

Brid Rodgers (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Upper Bann)

I am aware that the bacterium responsible for causing brown rot in potatoes has been found in water samples from parts of the Lunan Burn, and the Isla and Tay Rivers in Perthshire. However, extensive sampling of potato tubers irrigated from the contaminated rivers has confirmed that the infection has been confined to the watercourses. The Scottish Executive have assured me that the Scottish potato crop is completely free of brown rot.

Brown rot has never been found in Northern Ireland, but the possibility of its spreading here cannot be ruled out. My Department is taking all preventative measures permissible under EU rules so that brown rot does not spread to Northern Ireland, and it will continue to take all possible steps to prevent the introduction of quarantine pests and diseases, including brown rot.

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

As the Minister indicated, Northern Ireland has never had brown rot. It is a disease that we do not want to infect our potato crops. I would like her to ensure that the Department ensures that no samples are allowed into Northern Ireland containing any disease, as washings of those potatoes could get into our water system, and thus contaminate the entire crop and do substantial damage to the Northern Ireland potato industry.

Brid Rodgers (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Upper Bann)

I think that I have already answered that question. The Plant Health Directive places the onus of plant health control on the country of origin, which in this case is Scotland. It allows the importing country to carry out sample checks. I have recently spoken to our scientists who are dealing with the situation and I have been assured that sample checks are being carried out regularly.

Furthermore, the brown rot Directive specifies detailed measures that all member states must implement in order to control and prevent the disease. It outlines a number of control measures to be taken to contain and eradicate infection should an outbreak occur. I have been assured by the Scottish Rural Affairs Department that the required measures are in hand.

Jim Wells (DUP, South Down)

There is enormous concern, particularly in my own constituency of South Down, about any remote possibility of this disease getting into Northern Ireland. Can the Minister confirm that it is within European regulations to test all imported potatoes coming through Larne or any other Northern Ireland port? Can she assure us that every batch of potatoes coming into the Province is being thoroughly tested for this disease?

Brid Rodgers (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Upper Bann)

As I have said, sample checks are being carried out. It might not be possible to check every single potato coming into the country, but sample checks are carried out regularly to ensure that brown rot does not come in. The Scottish Rural Affairs Department has assured me that it has been found in the water but not in the potatoes. It has taken all measures required of it under European regulations to ensure that contaminated water is not used for irrigation or for spraying of either potatoes or tomatoes.

William McCrea (DUP, Mid Ulster)

The Minister has said that there has never been brown rot in Northern Ireland. I have requested a meeting with her and her officials on this issue. There is genuine concern. We have never had this problem, and we certainly do not want the possibility of there being a problem added to BSE and the many other problems within the farming industry. Can the Minister assure me that not only is the onus on the country of origin but that she and her Department take the matter very seriously? Any brown rot coming into this country could wipe out another part of our vital farming industry at this perilous time.

Brid Rodgers (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Upper Bann)

I can assure the Member that I am treating the matter seriously. I took the trouble to discuss it with the scientists in the Department as recently as last week. I am aware of it as an issue. I am aware of the difficulties it would create. As far as anyone can humanly guarantee anything, we cannot rule out the possibility. For that reason, all the precautions I have outlined, both those assured by the Scottish Executive and those that we are doing ourselves, are being taken to ensure that brown rot does not enter the Northern Ireland crop.

Ian Paisley (DUP, North Antrim)

Does the Minister not think it advisable for her officials to go to the country of origin to see if those European regulations are being strictly adhered to? The concern among farmers is that they may not be, and, if there is only limited testing here, that opens a door. No one can tell what will happen if that door is opened. It could be the destruction of the potato industry in Northern Ireland for ever.

Brid Rodgers (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Upper Bann)

It is not part of our responsibility, and it might be taken ill by the Scottish Executive if we were to send over our officials to see if they were doing their job properly. I will have to take the word of the Scottish Executive, and they have informed me that the issue is being dealt with. A watercourse is contaminated, but there is no potato rot. Every precaution has been taken to ensure that water from that watercourse is not used for irrigation or spraying until it is declared clear.

Jane Morrice (NIWC, North Down)

Question 5 has been withdrawn.

Joe Byrne (Social Democratic and Labour Party, West Tyrone)

6. asked the Minister of Agriculture and Rural Development to detail how the Forestry Service has been reorganised.

(AQO 255/00)

Brid Rodgers (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Upper Bann)

Following the Forestry Service’s establishment as an agency, the chief executive invited consultants to look at its organisation, staffing and systems and to recommend options for improving efficiency and effectiveness. The outcome was major changes to the structure of the Forestry Service. Most significant has been the reorganisation of the work into three directorates — operations, policy and standards, and corporate services. The most radical changes were in the operations directorate, where a redrawing of district boundaries created three larger districts. Working practices were restructured, and responsibility for forestry grants was transferred to the policy and standards directorate. Previously the Forestry Service operated in five geographical districts — Ballymena, Castlewellan, Enniskillen, Limavady and Omagh, each serviced by a district office. The three new districts — east, west and north — created by the redrawing of district boundaries have offices at Castlewellan, Enniskillen and Limavady. The Limavady office will shortly move to Garvagh.

Culture, Arts and Leisure

John Dallat (Social Democratic and Labour Party, East Londonderry)

1. asked the Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure how he intends to promote the wider development of community arts projects throughout Northern Ireland.

(AQO 251/00)

Michael McGimpsey (UUP, Belfast South)

Members will be aware of the future search process undertaken by my Department. An independent review of community arts has been identified as a pressing need, and the terms of reference have now been drawn up. For the first time, the review will provide a clear and comprehensive description of the community arts sector, by activity and location, and will outline how it can be developed throughout Northern Ireland.

John Dallat (Social Democratic and Labour Party, East Londonderry)

I welcome the Minister’s statement. Can he assure us that community arts will now be afforded equality with other art forms?

Michael McGimpsey (UUP, Belfast South)

If by "equality" Mr Dallat means equal amounts of resources or cash, for example, I cannot give that sort of guarantee. The Arts Council of Northern Ireland is responsible for funding. It is responsible for its own budget and administers the arts lottery money. I can assure the Member that there will be equity of treatment for community arts, because there is a growing awareness of their importance and the role they play at several levels.

Eileen Bell (Alliance, North Down)

Can the Minister assure me that there will be a better relationship between community arts and the Arts Council? I know that there have been difficulties in the past.

Michael McGimpsey (UUP, Belfast South)

I am aware that there has been tension, shall we say, between the Arts Council and the Community Arts Forum (CAF). We are addressing the issue by looking at a review of community arts — the sector, its size, how it is coping, how it is growing et cetera. Such a review will inform us of how best to treat the sector as part of the overall arts infrastructure. Although there may be debates and arguments between the Arts Council and community arts groups, a review will take that on board and resolve the issue.

Jim Shannon (DUP, Strangford)

How will the Minister encourage applications for community arts projects from both sides of the community? Secondly, how will he ensure that equal funding is given to applications from both sides of the community?

Michael McGimpsey (UUP, Belfast South)

The issue of equal funding relates to Mr Dallat’s question. We can be assured of equity of treatment, and the Arts Council, in common with all bodies and non-departmental bodies, has its own equality scheme as well as requirements under, for example, New TSN. Those are requirements that the Arts Council must meet. Each application will be treated on its merits, what it will deliver and what its outputs will be.

A review of community arts will perform an important task in informing the Arts Council where those criticisms lie. Criticisms may or may not have a basis. That is something that we will wish to be informed on, as it is a key area.

Séan Neeson (Alliance, East Antrim)

Does the Minister agree that in dealing with community arts we are not talking about two communities? We are talking about a multicultural society in Northern Ireland, bearing in mind that there are sizeable ethnic minorities and other groups in the Province.

Michael McGimpsey (UUP, Belfast South)

I agree with those sentiments. The Everitt review recommended that the Arts Council should consider delegating responsibility for community arts to district councils, and that is reflected in the Arts Council’s strategy of opening up the arts. There is equity of treatment and there is one community. Matters are dealt with on their merits, and that is the proper way to go forward with respect to the equality scheme that the Arts Council has adopted.

Séan Neeson (Alliance, East Antrim)

2. asked the Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure if he will detail the steps he is taking in conjunction with the Minister of Health to promote and encourage the use of leisure facilities in Northern Ireland.

(AQO 247/00)

Michael McGimpsey (UUP, Belfast South)

I recognise the role of sport and leisure as a major contributor to health and well-being. My Department is co-operating with the Department of Health in promoting the health agenda through its representation on the interdepartmental ministerial group on public health and the Northern Ireland physical activity strategy. This level of co-operation is endorsed by the Programme for Government, which recognises that improvements in health are vital to the creation of a modern and successful Northern Ireland. I confirm that my Department, in all its areas of responsibility, will continue to contribute to the efforts to promote a healthier society.

Séan Neeson (Alliance, East Antrim)

I thank the Minister for his answer and welcome co-operation between the two Departments. Does he accept that, although health education is a major issue, there is a need for the provision of affordable leisure facilities in Northern Ireland?

Michael McGimpsey (UUP, Belfast South)

Affordability is a key factor, and we are aware that the provision of leisure facilities is a matter that lies primarily with district councils. District councils play a key role in the provision of leisure facilities. The Sports Council is responsible for the development of sport. Within the strategy, there are several bodies for promoting a healthy lifestyle, and the understanding that prevention is better than cure and that greater participation in sport and physical activity will have benefits not only in the sporting realm of this Department but also in the realm of health provision for dealing with the consequences of physical inactivity.

Eugene McMenamin (Social Democratic and Labour Party, West Tyrone)

Will the Minister assure me that he will consider encouraging people with disabilities to avail themselves of leisure facilities? Will he also consider introducing a package that will enable the unemployed to afford those facilities?

Michael McGimpsey (UUP, Belfast South)

I can confirm that the Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure is very concerned about the needs of the disabled. We recently announced funding made available under the Programme for Government through the Access for Disabled People to Arts Premises Today (ADAPT) Fund Northern Ireland, for a programme to provide 40 audits of a range of sporting and cultural venues to assess how they can be made more accessible. It will also allow smaller adaptation grant schemes to be introduced. We are promoting equality of opportunity and participation by as many people as possible. That includes people who have physical disabilities. I take the point about the unemployed and the fact that leisure activities perhaps present a greater financial burden for them.

Derek Hussey (UUP, West Tyrone)

I welcome the recognition of the facilities that the Minister has rightly identified as being provided by local authorities and the part that they will play in the future health of the people. However, the Minister will be aware that local authorities are under considerable pressure in many areas to ensure that those facilities remain available to people. Are there any plans in the Minister’s Department, or in the Department of Health, to give some assistance to ensure that those facilities remain viable?

Michael McGimpsey (UUP, Belfast South)

The provision of leisure centres is primarily a matter for district councils. The Member points out that district councils suffer the financial burden and asks whether I have any plans. I am not aware of anything specifically at the moment, but I will enquire, and I can write to the Member should there be any specific details. The underlying principle is to promote equality of opportunity and participation. If district councils are having difficulties, that is something that the Department will have to address.

Sammy Wilson (DUP, Belfast East)

If the Minister intends to promote equality of opportunity for folks who are disabled or unemployed by making leisure centres more accessible to them, some form of subsidy will be needed. Is he saying that the Department will be making funds available to local authorities so that whatever revenue they lose through promoting leisure centres in that way will not have to be borne by ratepayers?

Michael McGimpsey (UUP, Belfast South)

That is not what I am saying. In answer to Mr Hussey’s question, I am saying that I do not have details to hand of any specific proposals for those who suffer physical disabilities. We are undertaking an audit of a range of sporting and cultural venues to assess what needs to be done to make those venues more accessible. It may be that provision can be made for a small adaptation grant scheme. Large sums of money are not necessarily required. Very small amounts of money can often make such venues accessible. I cannot be any more specific at this point, but I will write to Mr Hussey about it. If Mr Sammy Wilson wishes, I will copy the letter to him.

Barry McElduff (Sinn Féin, West Tyrone)

3. asked the Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure if he will detail the steps he is taking to ensure that Foras na Gaeilge/the all-Ireland language body will allocate and deliver funding at the start of January 2001.

(AQO 231/00)

Michael McGimpsey (UUP, Belfast South)

For the information of Mr McElduff and other Members, the title of the North/South Language Body in Irish is An Foras Teanga. Foras na Gaeilge is one of the agencies within the body. Both Foras na Gaeilge and Tha Boord o Ulster-Scotch are preparing corporate plans for carrying out their functions in 2001 and beyond.

Those will be submitted in due course for approval by the North/South Ministerial Council (NSMC). Foras Na Gaeilge is currently conducting a review of its activities and structure, and consequently its corporate plan may not be submitted to the NSMC until early next year. An indicative work programme for 2001 will, however, be submitted to the NSMC for approval. That will ensure that there is no disruption to clients and potential activities in the interim period. Neither myself nor my ministerial colleague in the Republic of Ireland has any reason to think that there will be a delay in the allocation and delivery of funding at the start of January 2001. In 2001, indicative funding of £11·42 million will be made available to the language body.

Barry McElduff (Sinn Féin, West Tyrone)

Ba mhaith liom iarraidh ar an Aire an bhfuil sé sásta leanúint ar aghaidh le hobair phráinneach an Fhorais Teanga uile-Éireann gan stad agus gan aon bhac óna pháirtí féin? I am glad to hear the assurances that money will have an impact on the ground as soon as possible. However, will the Minister act decisively to ensure that the crucial work of the all-Ireland language body proceeds without interference and does not fall hostage to the mood swings of the Ulster Unionist Council?

Michael McGimpsey (UUP, Belfast South)

I can give Mr McElduff the assurance that I have already given. As I said earlier, neither I nor my ministerial colleague in the Republic of Ireland has any reason to believe that there will be a delay in the allocation and delivery of funding. We must remember that An Foras Teanga, or Tha Boord o Leid, is the body responsible for funding both the Foras na Gaeilge and Tha Boord o Ulster-Scotch. I do not anticipate any difficulties. It will be a smooth operation in terms of drawing down money and carrying out their responsibilities.

Sammy Wilson (DUP, Belfast East)

I am interested in the Minister’s reply. Is he saying, despite the assurances given by his leader that the withdrawal of Sinn Féin Ministers from the North/South Ministerial Council is designed to punish those who are not giving in arms, that, to use his own words, "the actions should cause no delay or disruption to the work of the North/South Ministerial Council"? Is he admitting, therefore, that his party is engaged in a con trick?

Michael McGimpsey (UUP, Belfast South)

That is a political question rather than one for my Department. Mr S Wilson clearly misunderstands what has been said and what this is about. The Member should understand that what we have given assurances on will not affect the operation of the North/South Ministerial Council or the implementation bodies. It will simply affect the participation of certain Ministers. That was what was said, and that is what will happen. It in no way prejudices or undermines the workings of the NSMC agreement, the Assembly or the Executive — any more than the actions of the DUP do.

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

4. asked the Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure if he will detail the progress made in providing a new library for Lisburn.

(AQO 225/00)

Michael McGimpsey (UUP, Belfast South)

The responsibility for providing a new library in Lisburn rests with the South Eastern Education and Library Board. The board has acquired a site, with funding from my Department, and is currently exploring the possibility of providing a new library under the private finance initiative. If the new library is provided in that way, my Department will make additional funding available to help with the running costs.

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

The Minister’s response does not enthuse me very much, as we have been getting similar responses for some 25 years and still the second-largest council area in Northern Ireland is being deprived of library services. If the private finance initiative does not work out, what will the Minister do to ensure adequate library provision in Lisburn?

Michael McGimpsey (UUP, Belfast South)

I agree with Mr Poots when he refers to 25 years — Lisburn waited during the 25 barren years of direct rule, and the shortages and underfunding in much Government activity mean that the Library Service is no exception. Several towns have, like Lisburn, awaited provision for some time. During the spending review, SR2000, I secured an extra £0·5 million for capital library funding. Lisburn library itself will cost approximately £3·5 million. Clearly the extra funding, added to the £1·3 million we are already getting, does not begin to address the need. Work is underway in Portadown, and plans for Strabane have also been announced, but we do not have enough resources. I continue to ask for the sympathy of the Executive Committee, but until the money is allocated to my Department I cannot provide capital funding for libraries.

Seamus Close (Alliance, Lagan Valley)

Does the Minister not agree that it is a scandal of monumental proportions that Lisburn borough — the second-largest borough in Northern Ireland — should have been deprived of adequate library facilities for a quarter of a century? Rather than stating that he is exploring possibilities, the Minister should know that the people of Lisburn are demanding that, through devolved Government, the necessary finances be made available to provide a library, sooner rather than later. Although we recognise the other areas’ difficulties, the fact of Lisburn borough’s inadequate library facilities prevails.

Michael McGimpsey (UUP, Belfast South)

I refer Mr Close to my original answer: there is a private finance initiative going forward to provide a new library for Lisburn. Lisburn Borough Council and the South Eastern Education and Library Board share Mr Close’s and Mr Poots’s recognition of this need, and they are considering providing the library through that mechanism. If that does not work, we will have to look at other ways, but we hope that Lisburn will get a new library through the private funding initiative.

Mr Close must understand that after 25 years we will not be able to address all the funding shortfalls in year one or in session one. The project will take many years. I agree that Lisburn is a key borough, and although I may not agree with his words "a scandal of monumental proportions", I accept that there is a glaring need for provision.

Eileen Bell (Alliance, North Down)

5. asked the Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure if he will detail his budget proposals for museums in Northern Ireland and state how they are reflective of the needs of the corporate plan published earlier this year by Museums and Galleries of Northern Ireland (MAGNI).

(AQO 248/00)

Michael McGimpsey (UUP, Belfast South)

As a result of the spending review, museums have received an extra £300,000 for current expenditure and £400,000 for capital development for next year. Given the current financial climate, that is a welcome addition to the money available for museums. It will help to get the Museums and Galleries of Northern Ireland (MAGNI) off to a good start in implementing their corporate plan.

Eileen Bell (Alliance, North Down)

I hope that the Minister’s ambitions are realised. Have all the necessary funds been provided for the delivery of the corporate plan, and has a timescale been developed ?

Michael McGimpsey (UUP, Belfast South)

That is a matter for MAGNI, as it is the responsible managing body. It has a corporate plan, and it is fairly ambitious. It includes, for example, a national gallery for art in Northern Ireland and a museum of creative arts, which has a fairly large price tag of an estimated £57 million. There is also a proposal for a maritime, aviation and industry museum, at an estimated £30 million. We cannot provide those in year one or year two, but we may be able to do so over a number of years. Those will not be schemes that merit a once-and-for-all payment from the Executive Committee to the Department. We must look at more creative means of raising the finance, rather than following the previous route of expecting taxpayers to foot the bill.

(Mr Speaker in the Chair)

Mary Nelis (Sinn Féin, Foyle)

Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Chomhairle. Will the Minister say if he has plans to address the destruction of ancient archaeological sites as a result of modern development? That was mentioned in the corporate plan. Will his Department consider an audit of the archaeological sites?

Michael McGimpsey (UUP, Belfast South)

Archaeological sites are a matter for the Department of the Environment through its Heritage Service. It would be more appropriate to address the question of preservation to the Minister of the Environment. A review is being carried out at the moment of local museums and heritage sites, which is taking into account several heritage and archaeological sites. Preservation is specifically a matter for the Department of the Environment.

Kieran McCarthy (Alliance, Strangford)

6. asked the Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure if he will confirm the location of the North/ South Language Body (An Foras Teanga/Tha Boord o Leid); and if he will make a statement.

(AQO 244/00)

Michael McGimpsey (UUP, Belfast South)

The body has two agencies, with headquarters in Dublin and Belfast. The headquarters of Foras na Gaeilge are situated in 7 Merrion Square, Dublin 2, and the headquarters of Tha Boord o Ulster- Scotch are located on the fifth floor of Franklin House, 10-12 Brunswick Street, Belfast.

Kieran McCarthy (Alliance, Strangford)

I am a bit disappointed because the fifth floor is probably not very accessible to many people. The fifth floor in which building in Belfast? Which street?

John (Speaker, Belfast East)

The Minister might help by repeating the answer.

Michael McGimpsey (UUP, Belfast South)

The fifth floor of Franklin House, which is located at 10-12 Brunswick Street, Belfast.