Northern Ireland Assembly, 21 May 2001
37 contributions from 17 members. The official report.
Assembly Business
Ian Paisley Jnr (DUP, North Antrim)
On a point of order, Mr Speaker.
John (Speaker, Belfast East)
The Member is fast out of the blocks, but there is another matter which requires attention before I come to his point of order. Mr Cedric Wilson has asked to make a personal statement to the House.
Cedric Wilson (NIUP, Strangford)
During the course of business on 1 May I left the Chamber at a time when the Deputy Speaker was dealing with a point of order. I wish to apologise to the Chair. It was not my intention to show any disrespect to the Deputy Speaker or the Chair.
John (Speaker, Belfast East)
Mr Wilson has taken the proper course of action in making this statement, and it is noted by the Chair.
You had a point of order to raise, Mr Paisley.
Ian Paisley Jnr (DUP, North Antrim)
You will be aware, Mr Speaker, that on 2 February, and again on 12 March, the Director of Finance and Personnel for the Assembly wrote to all Members expressly forbidding the use of any room for election campaigning. It has been brought to my attention that the Deputy First Minister made part of his election video in this Building, in a room overlooking the Prince of Wales entrance. Will you conduct an investigation into what I believe is a breach of the rules and, indeed, the conduct to which Members — especially a Deputy First Minister — should adhere?
John (Speaker, Belfast East)
I am aware that a fellow Speaker in one of the other devolved Assemblies took the opportunity to advise members of the regulations and requirements in the Chamber. As far we are concerned, as the Member says, regulations and advice have been furnished by the Director of Finance and Personnel for the Assembly. If Members are concerned about their own observation of the regulations, or of any other Member’s, they should, in the first instance, draw that concern to the attention of the Director of Finance and Personnel for the Assembly. I ask the Member to do that if he has particular concerns of the kind he describes. If some problems remain after that, if they are drawn to my attention outside the Chamber, I will certainly give advice as to how they might be properly followed up.
I trust that is clear for Members.
Defective Premises (Landlord’s Liability) Bill
Mark Durkan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)
I beg to move
That the Defective Premises (Landlord’s Liability) Bill [NIA 5/00] do now pass.
This Bill has now passed through the various stages of scrutiny, and I would like to take this further opportunity to place on record my thanks to the members of the Committee for Finance and Personnel who have given this Bill detailed investigation and consideration.
I reiterate the comments I made at Consideration Stage. This is a limited but, I think, useful law reform measure, designed to clarify and materially widen the ambit of a landlord’s liability for failure to repair defective premises. A legal anomaly has been dealt with, and when the legislation comes into force this time next year, we will have a regime of liability which has existed for nearly all landlords in England and Wales since 1974.
The reasons why landlords of restricted and regulated tenancies do not fall within the scope of this reform at this time have been thoroughly debated, particularly at Committee Stage, and I believe that all those associated with this Bill have reached a consensus that to exempt such landlords is just about the right thing to do at this stage. Obviously it is not an ideal situation, but with the current state of the private rented sector, particularly in relation to grants and enforcement issues, it would be unfair to impose this burden on landlords who cannot achieve normal market rents. However, this situation would be revisited if the proposed review by the Department for Social Development leads to a material change in that sector.
I commend this short Bill to the Assembly.
Question put and agreed to.
Resolved:
That the Defective Premises (Landlord’s Liability) Bill [NIA 5/00] do now pass.
Adoption (Intercountry Aspects) Bill: Final Stage
Bairbre de Brún (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)
Molaim Céim Dheiridh an Bhille (Gnéithe Idirthíortha) Uchtaithe.
A Cheann Comhairle, is é príomhchuspóir an Bhille ná Coinbhinsiún na Háige a chur i bhfeidhm anseo.
Sna blianta deireannacha mhéadaigh ar an tsuim i bpáistí ón choigrích a uchtú. Ní suarach iad na buntáistí a thig le páiste ón choigrích a fháil ó bheith á uchtú ag teaghlach anseo. Ní féidir áibhéil a dhéanamh ach oiread ar áthas pearsanta agus sásamh lánúineacha gan chlann a fhéadann baile maith a thairiscint do pháiste ón choigrích.
Is léir go bhféadann mórbhuntáistí a theacht as an uchtú idirthíortha, ach tá sé riachtanach a chinntiú go gcosnaíonn na socruithe atá idir tíortha leas páistí agus go ndaingnítear cearta tuismitheoirí breithe nó cúramóirí eile i dtír dhúchais an pháiste.
I beg to move
That the final stage of the Adoption (Intercountry Aspects) Bill [NIA 8/00] do now pass.
The primary purpose of this Bill is to give effect to the 1993 Hague Convention on the protection of children and co-operation in respect of intercountry adoption.
In recent years there has been an increased interest in the adoption of children from abroad. The benefits that such a child can obtain through adoption by a family here can be substantial. Equally, the personal happiness and fulfilment of childless couples who are able to provide a good home for a child from abroad cannot be overestimated. Intercountry adoption can clearly yield enormous benefits, but it is necessary to ensure that the arrangements between countries protect the welfare of children and secure the rights of birth parents or other carers in the child’s country of orgin.
Question put and agreed to.
Resolved:
That the Adoption (Intercountry Aspects) Bill [NIA 8/00] do now pass.
John (Speaker, Belfast East)
We come to a series of four Statutory Rules subject to confirmatory resolution. I propose, by leave, to take the first two motions separately, with debates on them if the House so chooses. The second two will be taken together, with one debate if the House so chooses, since they refer to the same substance.
Social Security (Incapacity Benefit) (Miscellaneous Amendments) Regulations (Northern Ireland) 2000
Maurice Morrow (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)
I beg to move
That the Social Security (Incapacity Benefit) (Miscellaneous Amendments) Regulations (Northern Ireland) 2000 be approved.
The Welfare Reform and Pensions (Northern Ireland) Order 1999 made various changes to incapacity benefit. Those included more stringent contribution conditions, the payment of incapacity benefit rather than severe disablement allowance to help people disabled at birth or before the age of 20, and the abatement of the amount of incapacity benefit when an occupational or personal pension was being paid.
These regulations will relax the conditions for receiving the benefit for some disabled people and carers. The contribution conditions will be relaxed for people who were receiving invalidity care allowance immediately before they claimed incapacity benefit. They will also be relaxed for those who receive disabled person’s tax credit and earn less than the lower earnings level — currently £72 a week — and for people who received incapacity benefit in the tax year before the one in which they claimed.
The regulations will also make it easier for those incapacitated in youth to qualify for incapacity benefit, particularly a young person who registered for and attended a course of full-time advanced or secondary education or vocational or work-based training for at least three months before the age of 20. That person may be entitled to benefit up to the age of 25. A young person who takes up employment and has earnings below the lower earnings limit for a lengthy period before again becoming incapable of work will be able to requalify and do so for periods beyond the normal linking rules. The normal linking rules are modified for people incapacitated in youth who stopped claiming incapacity benefit and went to work.
The regulations also protect people who return from abroad and were in receipt of benefit in the last tax year prior to the new claim. The regulations provide that the normal abatement of the amount of incapacity benefit when an occupational or personal pension in excess of £85 a week is in payment will not apply to severely disabled people in receipt of the highest rate care component of disability living allowance.
All the changes to incapacity benefit apply only to new claims made after 6 April 2001. Existent beneficiaries at the point of change will not be affected by the new measures. These regulations are entirely beneficial and will enable a wide range of deserving groups to continue to receive incapacity benefit.
Oliver Gibson (DUP, West Tyrone)
What will be the real benefit of those changes to those who are incapacitated in youth?
Maurice Morrow (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)
Young people incapacitated early in life will gain as much as £27·60 a week, that is £69·75 long-term incapacity benefit less £42·15 severe disablement allowance under provisions allowing them access to incapacity benefit without their having paid the normal national insurance contribution.
Question put and agreed to.
Resolved:
That the Social Security (Incapacity Benefit) (Miscellaneous Amendments) Regulations (Northern Ireland) 2000 be approved.
Social Security Benefits Up-rating Order (Northern Ireland) 2001
Maurice Morrow (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)
I beg to move
That the Social Security Benefits Up-rating Order (Northern Ireland) 2001 be approved.
This is an annual Order which increases rates of contributory and non-contributory benefits, together with the various premiums which form part of the income-related benefits. As usual, the increases are based on changes to the relevant price indicators over the 12 months ending in September. Most social security benefits rise in the usual way, in line with the retail price index, which this year is 3·3%, while most income-related benefits, for instance, income support, housing benefit and income-based jobseeker’s allowance, are increased by the Rossi index, which is 1·6%. Pensions and some of the premiums which are part of the income-related benefits are increased by more than these percentages.
More is being done to help people with disabilities and carers. The disabled child premium is increased by £7·40 a week above inflation, from £22·25 to £30 a week. This is a real increase for some of the most needy families in the country. From April the new disability income guarantee was introduced at the rate of £142 a week for a single person and £186·80 for couples. In addition, young adults disabled early in life will benefit from an extra £27·60 a week.
More is also being done to recognise the enormous contribution that carers make. The carers premium is increased by £10 a week on top of the normal up-rating, raising the premium from £14·15 to £24·40. This measure will help many carers on low incomes.
More is being done too for pensioners. The minimum income guarantee was introduced to give more help to the poorest pensioners. This Order raises the guarantee to £92·15 a week. The basic state pension is increased by £5 for single pensioners and by £8 for married couples. Widows and bereavement benefits rise by the same amount. The Order increases rates of benefit in line with inflation and provides additional help for those who need it most.
Oliver Gibson (DUP, West Tyrone)
I thank the Minister for this information. What about those whose partners are not able to meet all the requirements of the jobseeker’s allowance?
Maurice Morrow (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)
Provision has been made for people in that situation. I will write to the Member with full details to answer his question.
Question put and agreed to.
Resolved:
That the Social Security Benefits Up-rating Order (Northern Ireland) 2001 be approved.
Social Security (Work-focused Interviews for Lone Parents) Regulations (Northern Ireland) 2001
John (Speaker, Belfast East)
I will ask the Minister to address the next two motions on the Order Paper. Anyone who wishes to speak should refer to either or both motions. After any debate we will vote on the first motion, and then the second will be formally proposed and voted on.
Maurice Morrow (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)
I beg to move
That the Jobseeker’s Allowance (Joint Claims: Consequential Amendments) Regulations (Northern Ireland) 2001 be approved.
The following motion stood on the Order Paper:
That the Social Security (Work-focused Interviews for Lone Parents) Regulations (Northern Ireland) 2001 be approved. — [Minister for Social Development]
Maurice Morrow (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)
I wish to seek the Assembly’s approval for two sets of Regulations. Both arise out of the changes introduced by the Welfare Reforms and Pensions (Northern Ireland) Order 1999 and are required to ensure that parity in social security provision between Northern Ireland and Great Britain is maintained.
The first set of Regulations amends the Jobseeker’s Allowance Regulations (Northern Ireland) 1996 as a consequence of the introduction of a joint claims regime for certain couples from 19 March 2001. I should first explain that the Welfare Reforms and Pensions (Northern Ireland) Order 1999 contains provisions which require couples to make a joint claim for jobseeker’s allowance where neither partner has responsibility for a child.
The Jobseeker’s Allowance Joint Claims Regulations (Northern Ireland) 2001 introduced these provisions on 19 March 2001 and apply when one or both partners were aged between 18 and 24 at the time the requirements came into effect. Under those Regulations, both members of the couple are now required to meet jobseeker’s allowance conditions and to be available for, and actively seek, work. They will both receive help to obtain work and will be directed to training programmes or New Deal assistance as appropriate. Joint claims for jobseeker’s allowance will ensure that both partners are involved in the labour market, preventing them from adjusting to benefit dependency at an early age. These are young people without children, in a position to find and take work.
These Regulations ensure that couples who are required to make a joint claim for jobseeker’s allowance are treated in the same way as single claimants. This is done through amendment of the principal Regulations: the Jobseeker’s Allowance Regulations (Northern Ireland) 1996.
The principal Regulations provide for a claimant to be treated as meeting the "availability" and "actively seeking employment" conditions of entitlement for jobseeker’s allowance in certain circumstances where, in practice, the claimant is unable to meet the conditions for good reasons.
Regulation 14 of the principal Regulations includes provision that a claimant of jobseeker’s allowance can be treated as available for employment if he and his partner are absent from Northern Ireland for up to four weeks, and if his partner qualifies for specified pensioner and disability premiums.
Regulation 50 of the principal Regulations provides that a claimant will be treated as being in Northern Ireland during a period of temporary absence if he is in Great Britain for up to four weeks, or is abroad as agreed for the purposes of attending an interview for up to seven days.
The amending Regulations under discussion today extend these favourable conditions to cover a member of a joint-claim couple who is temporarily absent on the date of the joint claim for jobseeker’s allowance.
Regulation 19 of the principal Regulations includes provision that a claimant of jobseeker’s allowance shall be treated as actively seeking employment if he and his partner are absent from Northern Ireland for up to four weeks, and if his partner qualifies for specified pensioner and disability premiums.
Paragraphs 2 and 3 of Regulation 2 before us today simply extend these arrangements to joint claimants, so that they are treated as available for and actively seeking employment in the circumstances I have described.
Paragraphs 4 and 5 of Regulation 2 of today’s amending Regulations make technical amendments to existing jobseeker’s allowance regulations 64 and 65. These amendments ensure that the requirements for a 16-or-17 year-old claimant to be available for and actively seek employment are the same whether he is a single claimant or a member of a joint-claim couple.
We aim to ensure that joint claimants seeking jobseeker’s allowance are treated in the same way as single claimants. The changes introduced by the Jobseeker’s Allowance (Joint Claims: Consequential Amendments) Regulations (Northern Ireland) 2001 will put joint claimants on an equal footing with single claimants as regards labour market conditions for receiving jobseeker’s allowance.
Question put and agreed to.
Resolved:
That the Jobseeker’s Allowance (Joint Claims: Consequential Amendments) Regulations (Northern Ireland) 2001 be approved.
Question put and agreed to.
Resolved:
That the Social Security (Work-focused Interviews for Lone Parents) Regulations (Northern Ireland) 2001 be approved.
(Madam Deputy Speaker [Ms Morrice] in the Chair)
Soccer Strategy
Michael McGimpsey (UUP, Belfast South)
I beg to move
That this Assembly notes the publication of the report ‘Creating a Soccer Strategy for Northern Ireland – views of the stakeholders’ and notes the progress made on the development of the strategy.
I am delighted to have this opportunity to introduce the future of soccer in Northern Ireland for debate in the Assembly. The debate is very timely given the progress to date on the initiative I launched last October to create a soccer strategy for Northern Ireland. Issues surrounding soccer have been raised and discussed in the Assembly on a number of previous occasions. It would be useful for me to rehearse the background to the soccer initiative and to clarify progress to date.
For some time I have been deeply concerned about the future of football in Northern Ireland. Under devolution, taking up ministerial responsibility for sport has provided me with the opportunity to act on my concerns.
Soccer is in serious difficulties due to a whole raft of problems. Grounds risk closure as they fall seriously short of acceptable health and safety standards. Matches are poorly attended. Clubs are in financial difficulties. There is hooliganism and sectarian behaviour by spectators, and the public has a poor perception of the game. I was convinced that we could and should find ways of overcoming the difficulties. We need to restore to full health the sport that has served all sections of our community for so long and so well.
Northern Ireland can be proud of its rich history of involvement in the evolution of world football. The local game’s governing authority, the Irish Football Association (IFA), is the fourth oldest association in the world. The Irish Football League (IFL) is the third oldest league. Therefore it is important to reflect that we are part of a game that was at the very beginning of international football. There was a football association here before there was one in Italy, Germany, Brazil, or Argentina. It is part of our heritage and culture, and that is also something that needs to be borne in mind.
Northern Ireland has produced some wonderful players, but we are now suffering from a shortage of quality players coming through the system. Sadly, the Northern Ireland international team has not participated in the final stages of the World Cup since Mexico in 1986. Football is part of our culture. It has kept going over the past 30 difficult years, serving society well, and we cannot allow it to go to the wall, which is where it is heading if nothing is done to help it.
I believe firmly that there is a potential audience for live football here. The number of spectators who travel across the water to follow the big clubs such as Manchester United, Rangers, Celtic and Liverpool shows that the potential is there. I do not see our clubs ever competing with the big clubs at that level — or with live matches — nor do I see local football attracting the big crowds that it did in the 1950s and 1960s. Those days are probably over. However, football here can be developed in a complementary way to generate widespread interest and a following for a good-quality and thriving local game.
We have obligations to the younger generation of Northern Ireland, and I would like to maximise the opportunities for boys and girls alike to participate in and enjoy the game. We need to provide the potential for them to progress to the highest levels if that is what they want to do.
When I considered the issues I realised that the way forward was not to deal with them in isolation. The Assembly should look towards a vision for football and see where the game should be in five, 10 or 20 years. What are the issues, and how should we tackle them? What are the problems, and how do we solve them? How can we improve the image of the game and increase spectator numbers? Can we broaden the spectator base to make the game attractive to women and families? What steps can be taken to create a welcoming and family-friendly environment? Can we increase access and participation? How should we go about developing youth football and women’s football? What does it take to improve the infrastructure, grounds, facilities, administration, coaching and funding?
Those are some of the questions that arose during the Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure’s early discussions about the game. There are no easy fixes. Change will require a great deal of effort, support and resources. However, if the Assembly wants to make football a thriving and successful sport once again, we need to plan now for the future. There is a huge opportunity to develop football, and that would create benefits for the self-esteem and image of our community at home and further afield. I concluded early on that progress could be achieved only by having a strategy for the development of the game. Last October I introduced the "Creating a Soccer Strategy for Northern Ireland — views of the stakeholders" initiative.
Notwithstanding the need for a long-term strategy for soccer, it was clear that some urgent measures were necessary to tackle the most serious health and safety problems at our top sports venues. There is no doubt about the seriousness of the problems. Substantial measures are required to make our sports grounds safe and comfortable for spectators and players. Safety at the grounds and the need to bring those grounds up to the standard recommended in the Taylor report in the wake of the Hillsborough disaster in 1989 are matters which could and should have been tackled more actively under direct rule. However, they were not.
Northern Ireland did not share in the Football Trust’s substantial funding for major schemes for grounds improvements that were carried out elsewhere in the United Kingdom in the 1990s following the Taylor report — for which some £600 million was made available.
It was assessed then that Northern Ireland needed over £20 million to comply with the new safety legislation that was introduced in the rest of the United Kingdom as a result of Taylor. Under direct rule we got nothing. The potential for funding has been dramatically reduced, because the Football Foundation that administered those large sums of money and which did so well for the game in England, Wales and Scotland, but not in Northern Ireland, has been replaced by the Football Trust. The football trust is envisaged as an England-only organisation.
Northern Ireland inherited its situation as a result of direct rule. However, Members will recall that last year I introduced an interim measure, the safe sports ground scheme, that was designed to implement urgent health and safety recommendations at football, gaelic and rugby grounds. That work proceeded due to some £5·3 million being made available over three years. I am glad to acknowledge the Assembly’s decision to support the allocation of £2 million last year to enable the Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure to speed up progress on those improvements.
I am pleased with progress on that front, but I recognise that this is just the beginning and that more needs to be done. Nevertheless, we have a scheme running, and the decision to provide financial support is in our hands. That demonstrates the scope to achieve real progress at local level, progress that could not have been achieved without that local input.
When I announced my plans for a strategy for soccer at the end of last year I intended that the process should be open and inclusive and involve a wide spectrum of interest. The initiative was not just about Irish league football, which undoubtedly has its problems. I wanted the process to look at all levels of the game from the grass roots up.
There have been three important stages to the process. First, I established an advisory panel with a broad range of interests and experience to guide and advise on the development of the strategy. Second, the panel carried out an extensive consultation exercise with interested individuals and groups and the public on the issues facing football and how the game needs to be improved.
On 5 February we published the findings of this exercise in a report called ‘Creating a Soccer Strategy for Northern Ireland — views of the stakeholders, which provided the basis for a conference workshop in Newcastle during the weekend of 10 February and 11 February.
I want to place on record my sincere thanks and appreciation to the members of the advisory panel, under the chairmanship of Billy Hamilton, for the substantial amount of work and effort they have devoted, and are continuing to devote, to this process. The level of time and commitment they have given has been much more than was anticipated.
It is not my role, nor the panel’s, to lay down how things should be. Therefore it is imperative that there is a broad consensus from the football family on ideas about how the game should be developed. The panel’s role is to provide advice as we move along and to facilitate and guide the process that will translate the ideas into a strategy for action for the future.
I commissioned the ‘views of the stakeholders’ report to help identify difficulties in the game. I understand that copies have been made available to Members. I wanted the initiative to be open and inclusive, hence the commissioning of widespread consultation and the publication of the findings. Unsurprisingly, the exercise has generated, in the words of the consultants, "an extraordinarily high level of interest and passion." It is a valuable record of what people think about the game. Issues such as the standard of facilities, structure of the game, standard of play, youth development, media, hooliganism and sectarianism have come forward as a result.
We invited delegates to take part in a conference workshop in Newcastle. This provided an opportunity to bring together 68 representatives of the key stakeholder groups, including representatives of the Assembly Committee for Culture, Arts and Leisure, to debate the issues and begin to develop ideas.
I would again like to place on record my appreciation to everyone involved for participating in that weekend. Having taken the ideas that emerged at the conference we are currently at the crucial stage of working on recommendations for the future. The advisory panel and my officials are actively engaged in discussions with representatives of football interests at various levels, including the Irish Football Association (IFA), the Irish Football League (IFL), the players and the media to formulate proposals across a range of issues. These discussions are an important part of the process and will contribute to the report that I expect to receive from the advisory panel by the end of the summer. My intention is to use that report as the basis for publishing a draft strategy document in September for widespread consultation.
It would be improper and unwise of me to anticipate the advisory panel’s recommendations, but I can give an indication of progress on some of the issues the report is likely to address.
Members of the panel have led several working sessions involving different interest groups. I am aware that proposals have been produced for consideration by the panel for a youth development policy setting out agreed objectives and structures for the future of youth football in Northern Ireland. The proposals have been produced through representatives of the Irish League clubs, all of the football associations and the Sports Council, working together towards a common purpose.
The media, the IFA and the IFL have worked together to come up with practical solutions for improving media relations. I am told it is intended to re-establish the Professional Players’ Association (PPA) from the start of next season. That recommendation is coming from the players as a direct consequence of the soccer strategy process.
Other ongoing work includes looking at ground facilities and health and safety requirements. I expect to receive recommendations on the need for health and safety legislation for Northern Ireland, taking into account the legislation produced in Great Britain. I anticipate that such recommendations will also look at the need for any new legislation to strengthen existing public order provisions to combat unacceptable behaviour at sports grounds, including sectarianism, which has been highlighted as a major issue for soccer.
As I have pointed out in the Assembly on previous occasions, sectarianism is not unique to sport or, indeed, to football. Sport alone cannot solve society’s problems. We are, however, addressing this problem within the strategy on a number of fronts. A working group that includes the Irish Football Association (IFA), the Sports Council for Northern Ireland and the Community Relations Council has been set up to identify the issues and to produce recommendations on what future action can be taken to rid football of the scourge of disruptive behaviour. When I launch the soccer strategy for consultation later this year, I expect there to be a range of options for dealing with this problem.
I hope I have given a flavour of what the soccer strategy will address. There are, of course, other issues which I have not yet touched upon and which I expect will also be addressed within the strategy. There is the matter of how football is governed and how senior league football is structured and managed in Northern Ireland. These are big issues, not only for those who support football but also for the organisations at the centre. Individual clubs face problems as to how they might be helped in terms of future management and development in the community.
The subject of a national stadium has also been raised in the context of the soccer strategy. That has implications for sports other than football. The debate is ongoing as to the viability and sustainability of such a project for Northern Ireland. I will be interested to see what emerges from the soccer strategy on the needs of football, and especially international football.
Inevitably some problems will be easier to sort out than others. There will be substantial resource implications for some issues, and it will be up to the football sector to resolve them. I am confident that the strategy document will provide a direction for the future which we can all encourage and support.
I look forward to receiving the advisory panel’s report and to launching the strategy document in due course. Discussions with the Assembly and the Committee for Culture, Arts and Leisure on the way forward will be an important part of the process. One of the most important aspects of today’s debate is that, as local politicians, we are looking at an issue together, and that has implications for our community. The progress we have made so far on the safe sports ground scheme and on the soccer strategy would not have been possible without devolution. There has been a lack of funding over the past 15 years under the football foundation. Local people, local politicians and local soccer interests are talking to each other for the betterment of football and sport in general and our society as a whole.
Eamonn ONeill (Social Democratic and Labour Party, South Down)
I rise to support the motion. Our Committee welcomes the PricewaterhouseCoopers report and will support the Minister’s emphasis on ensuring an inclusive and transparent process of consultation. As you may recall, we raised the matter of consultation earlier in the year, particularly with regard to a series of meetings held at five separate venues. The Committee was concerned that people who had important contributions to make on the subject may have been excluded from the meetings. The report does not provide details as to where those five public meetings were held.
The report does, however, appear to generate a significant response from those involved in the game and from the public. The interrelated issues that emerged came as no surprise. Lack of finance was perceived as a major problem, and the report indicates that Irish League clubs are facing financial difficulties, deteriorating grounds, lack of sponsorship, poor marketing and image problems. I understand that the Minister intends to address these issues in his strategy for sport.
Will the strategy place emphasis on additional funding and funding sources to support the game? That is required, but adequate financial management and sound business techniques are needed most in the long term. Although finance is important, management techniques are also important to ensure that maximum use is made of the available funds.
The Committee has taken a particular interest in the allocation of the health and safety funds that were made available under the safe sports grounds scheme. On 4 December 2000, the Minister told the Assembly that an estimated £25 million was required to upgrade our existing stadiums. As he said, £5·3 million has been secured so far to undertake essential work. The Minister indicated that he would like to work on this issue. What plans has he and the Department prepared to ensure that health and safety funding will continue after the initial phase?
The Committee hopes to visit a number of stadiums in Scotland this year to look at work carried out as a result of recommendations in the Taylor report. As Members know, a great deal of excellent work has been completed using Football Trust money. This is relevant to our situation, and the Committee hopes to explore this area in particular.
The Minister is already on record as having indicated the Department’s intention to bring forward legislation to implement the Taylor report. When is this likely to be programmed?
The overwhelming response from the report was that there was a need for one governing body to take forward senior football. It appears that the Irish Football Association (IFA) and the Irish Football League (IFL) fail to work together, and the perceived degree of conflict between them contributes to the negative image of soccer here. For example, we have seen that a sole central authority in the South — joining the Football Association of Ireland (FAI) and the Eircom league — has benefited football in terms of increased crowds and better performances in Europe.
Although the primary aim of the Department’s strategy will be the improvement of the Irish league, the ultimate by-product will be the production of a better international team. Will the Minister tell us whether the Department intends to create a unified governing body for soccer? He referred to it as a major management issue in the future, but is he predisposed to go in that direction?
Two important areas highlighted by the report are youth development and community involvement. It is vital to attract young people to the game and provide them with the opportunity to develop their skills. The report highlighted the sense of loss that results from young players being lured away to play for clubs in the United Kingdom, which are perceived as offering better opportunities. Therefore it is essential that the Department’s strategy addresses the issues of how the game in Northern Ireland can benefit from the development of our talented young players, and how they can be provided with opportunities.
I was glad to hear the Minister state that the advisory panel has focused on a youth development policy. Would he consider, as part of the strategy, similar coaching techniques to those employed by the Belfast Giants? Many Members may be familiar with this. The Giants hire professional players to coach young people, and this, incidentally, is an excellent way of establishing the sport here. They appear to be having some success already.
This coaching system works in two ways. Young players have the privilege of being coached by someone they admire greatly, and aspire to be like, and the ice hockey players are contributing to the community. The Committee was impressed when, during a recent public session, it heard evidence from the organisers of the Giants about how they went about their training. Perhaps we should be learning from good practice where it exists.
The area of community involvement is difficult. However, it is valid for the success of the game to establish links and positive loyalties with the community.
Of those questioned for the report, 62% rated the image of soccer in Northern Ireland as "quite" or "very poor," and only 14% thought that it was "quite good".
Media coverage appears to be a big issue that needs to be addressed. I am again heartened that the advisory panel has focused on that as a major issue. Has the Minister had any discussions with the television companies about the comments that were made during the preparation of the final report? Such discussions might influence issues even before the advisory panel completes its work.
Unfortunately, media coverage often includes images of sectarianism and hooliganism. While there is no doubt that they come from a small core of people, sectarianism and hooliganism exist at club and international level. The perception, from the report, is that those factors are responsible for alienating people, especially family groups, from the game.
The Committee recognises and applauds the good work of the IFA in tackling this problem at international level. The Minister has been forthright in his condemnation of the sectarian behaviour. He also said that he will examine the need for legislation to deal specifically with the problem as part of the soccer strategy.
The Committee looks forward to being consulted on the draft strategy at an early date. I look forward to hearing the views of other Members. I support the motion.
Madam Deputy Speaker, I must leave the Chamber to attend a Committee meeting. I believe that it is now protocol for Members to indicate that. I will, however, be monitoring the responses given.
Derek Hussey (UUP, West Tyrone)
I too endorse the strategy. During the drafting of the strategy, although the major tendency was to look at problems at a senior level, I welcomed the involvement of representatives of clubs at junior, intermediate and youth levels in the consultation process to introduce a forward strategy.
Although I welcome the Minister’s statement, I seek some reassurance. Mention has rightly been made of youth development. I am sure that the Minister realises that a tremendous amount of youth development in Association Football takes place through the junior and intermediate clubs. Indeed — and I respond to the Chairperson of the Committee for Culture, Arts and Leisure — tremendous community involvement is generated via the localised set-ups at the lower levels.
I seek assurance from the Minister that the taking forward of the strategy will involve junior and intermediate clubs, and the youth wings, in the strategy’s implementation and the provision of the necessary funding, to assist clubs at the lower levels in improving the standards of play and upgrading facilities.
David Hilditch (DUP, East Antrim)
I support the motion. I thank the Minister for bringing this issue before the Assembly. I welcome the opportunity to note the report and to highlight a number of important issues on the subject.
This debate comes on the back of what was probably one of the most successful days for local soccer in the past 30 years — the recent Irish Cup final, when everything that is good in soccer was highlighted — [Interruption]
David Hilditch (DUP, East Antrim)
— except the result.
The football fraternity eagerly awaits the final report and the recommendations that it will contain. Can the Minister confirm that we are still on course for the soccer strategy to be in place by the autumn?
There was a degree of disappointment that the strategy could not be put in place by the close of this season to allow for some forward planning. However, everyone involved in the game appreciates the depth of consultation that was required. It was probably best not to be rushed; the important thing is to get the end product right.
The ‘Creating a Soccer Strategy for Northern Ireland — views of the stakeholders’ report is a crucial part of the process and must be welcomed. I can identify with many of the issues raised concerning matters over the past 20 years, as I have had various responsibilities as a player, coach, referee, paying spectator and, currently, an administrator.
The report is comprehensive and covers all levels of soccer and the key stakeholders in the game. The only criticism of the process is the contribution of some members of the advisory panel, and they have been made aware of the figures. Some members who were afforded a place on the panel may find participation particularly difficult because of their cross-channel commitments to the game. However, the majority of panel members should be praised for their work, and those who took part in the conference workshop in Newcastle should also be praised. It provided an opportunity for people involved in soccer to get together in an intense environment to give their honest assessment of the failures in the sport. At the end of the three days honesty prevailed, even among those who had gone to Newcastle to defend their organisations and policies over the years. The "look at us and how great we are" mentality was put to bed, and views which, in the past, had gone unheard were taken on board.
The main part of the research and the matters on which we should be concentrating are contained in part three of the report, entitled ‘The Emerging Issues’. These are listed in bullet points. Although it has been difficult to prioritise them, they are listed in order of importance — finance, facilities, structure, youth development, community involvement, image, sectarianism and hooliganism. Many of these issues are interlinked. At the top of the list is finance, which is also the common denominator of the other emerging issues. Although it is not within the scope of the research remit to investigate and report on the financial state of Irish League clubs or any other part of the structure of football in Northern Ireland, it might have been prudent to do so, as that would have given us a real insight into the problems facing us.
The Government may provide financial assistance to help with health and safety and other matters, but no one expects Government handouts just to keep clubs solvent. However, the Assembly should know of some factors which explain why many senior clubs find themselves in their current positions. A typical first division club, with a fortnightly gate of between £200 and £300, is left with £25 to £30 after match expenses. That is only for match day. The club then has to find players’ wages, ground rent, administration costs and electricity charges, et cetera. On top of that is the burning issue of rates. The rates bill for a typical first division club is over £4,000. That is only for the football side; it has nothing to do with the social club. A club that finds it impossible to meet its weekly commitments is charged rates at a commercial level. A team that plays its last home game on 21 April and does not play another until the middle of August has no income coming through its gates for a quarter of the year.
I call upon the Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure and the Minister of Finance and Personnel to deal with this situation immediately. If commercial property is not used, it should not be charged accordingly. Other sources of income are social clubs and sponsorships. A home sponsored game every fortnight would raise between £200 and £300 a game. Social clubs are things of the past. They were successful in the 1970s and 1980s when people were looking for a secure environment in which to socialise. Times and trends have changed, and people are now looking for social entertainment with much more on offer. Time has stood still for many social clubs. They find it difficult to pay their way, never mind contribute finance to offset the cost of sustaining soccer.
It is acknowledged that, in addition to the Government, all stakeholders in soccer should deal with reality when it comes to finance. Most clubs are now gearing themselves to live within their means. I urge the Assembly also to play its part.
There is much to be said on the emerging issues. The report sets them out adequately, and they should be taken on board in time. I have highlighted only one aspect of the report, but I emphasise that there is much feeling, fervour and passion about football here. A large number of people await autumn, the finished soccer strategy, its recommendations and public consultation.
Kieran McCarthy (Alliance, Strangford)
Once again the Assembly gives locally elected people the opportunity to debate issues that matter greatly to the people of Northern Ireland.
Today the subject is football. It certainly makes a change from going over and over the old sterile arguments.
The report is informative and timely. Now that the Assembly is in place, we have a real opportunity to change, contribute to and improve football in Northern Ireland. The Alliance Party supports much of this report. We agree that competitions overwork players, who then have little or no time to improve their skills. Realistically, there should be fewer competitions.
The Alliance Party also has concerns about the structure of football in Northern Ireland, both in the Irish Football Association and the Irish Football League. Currently there is a lack of clarity in each organisation’s role. Surely a single governing body would make more sense. Not only would it remove overlap in role and responsibilities, it could cut costs by streamlining staff and eliminating duplication.
Under no circumstances, however, can the Alliance Party support any question of cutting the post of the IFA community relations officer, who is doing an excellent job and very important and essential work. That must continue and be supported, and I ask the Minister today to give the Assembly a commitment that it will be so.
The Alliance Party — like the report — calls for a new stadium on neutral ground. We committed to this in the Programme for Government, and it forms part of our manifesto. It makes sense, of course, that to get the best use from any such sporting ground it must be multi- purpose. We do not want a large white elephant — even if it be on neutral ground.
Alliance also supports making available the full amount called for in the upgrading of senior clubs — the whole £20 million rather than the £6 million currently allocated. This money must only, however, be allocated as part of an overall strategy to improve grounds, quality of play and the overall experience for fans and spectators.
The Minister and other Members who spoke earlier agreed that central to improving the experience for fans is the tackling of the scourge of sectarianism. Over 90% of people in the clubs felt that sectarianism had an impact. Over 90% of people perceived to be Protestant thought that sectarianism affected football. It is seen as even more of a problem than hooliganism — and rightly so. It is a problem at international matches and at Irish League matches. It is a problem and does nothing to the credit of Northern Ireland or of football.
I welcome the Minister’s commitment against sectarianism and hooliganism. It has to stop. We can tolerate it no longer. I have raised the matter with the Minister in the Assembly. I have made speeches about it, and I continue to make speeches. Extend the Football (Offences Act) 1991 to Northern Ireland. Outlaw sectarian chanting and the throwing of abuse at the pitch, at players and other fans. If the Minister is tired of hearing me say this, let him do something quickly. Only then will I be quiet.
In conclusion, football in Northern Ireland has to become a family-orientated form of entertainment, and the sooner that is brought about, the sooner we can have a thriving and well-supported football and soccer industry. That will give the whole community something to shout about together.
Billy Hutchinson (PUP, Belfast North)
I welcome the motion and congratulate the Minister for bringing it forward. I do, however, feel a bit cheated. I always do feel cheated by consultants. The Minister invited consultants to Parliament Buildings. They looked at the clock and told us what time it was. We knew exactly what problems existed in soccer. What we need to do is get on with finding the means to resolve them, rather than spending large amounts of money on consultants’ telling us what is wrong.
One of the best documents ever written about soccer is the Taylor report. Paragraph 59 of chapter 2 entitled ‘A Better Future for Football’ states
"It is not enough to aim only at the minimum measures necessary for safety. That has been, at best, the approach in the past and too often not even that standard has been achieved. What is required is the vision and the imagination to achieve a new ethos for football. Grounds should be upgraded. Attitudes should be more welcoming. The aim should be to provide more modern and comfortable accommodation, better and more varied facilities, more consultation with the supporters and more positive leadership. If such a policy is implemented it will not only improve safety. There will also be an improvement in behaviour, making crowd control easier."
We can assume that every Member, including the Minister, wants to achieve those aims. They must be the basis from which we work.
I congratulate the Minister on what he has done so far and on what the panel has achieved. However, there are many myths about. I heard what Members have said this morning. East Antrim Member David Hilditch has been involved in soccer at different levels, and he probably knows more about the administration side than I do. However, as a football supporter who goes to grounds every week, I know that people continually talk about the amount of games that are played and about how that inhibits the skills of young players. The football season in England ended on Saturday. I am not a Liverpool supporter, but Liverpool played sixty-odd games. There are four local players in the team— Michael Owen, Steven Gerrard, Carragher and Fowler — and I would defy anybody to tell me that they are not skilful. Those four kids played in most of the games, and we are continually told that it is wrong.
People pick up skills by playing the game at the speed that it should be played at — in a match, not on a training ground. Training ground practice is not the same as a match-day game. Players can practise things at a certain speed on the training ground, but on a match day they can bet that the opposing team will be in quickly to try to stop them from playing. The four kids from Liverpool have proved that. We must get rid of some of the myths.
Another myth is that footballers in Northern Ireland do not coach young people. Where have people been? Linfield and Dundalk football clubs are involved in the Dunfield project whereby the players coach in the community. I am sure that Alban Maginness and the Sinn Féin Member Gerry Kelly know that Cliftonville Football Club in North Belfast has received money to employ a development officer to work in the community. Many teams in Northern Ireland do not have the money to do that. Some teams have found sources to enable them to do it. Of course teams will work and coach in the community, but they must have the money to do so.
We must get rid of these perceptions and myths. People must understand what is really happening in football grounds. We must recognise that for the past thirty-odd years people have committed themselves — from the chairmen and board members of the premiership and first division teams right down to the grass roots — to local soccer through the worst times and with no money. However, the Football Trust was set up in 1958. Anybody who reads the finance section of the Taylor report — a report written in 1989 — will find that the trust was drawing in £9 million a year from the three major pools companies. From 1958 to 1989 about £120 million went into football for British teams. In relation to the trust’s powers, the Taylor report actually says
"football in Great Britain and Northern Ireland".
Why did we not get the money? If we did not get the money, we should be asking for some of it now. If we did get the money, why were the grounds not improved? We must ask those questions.
There are several things that we can do. For example, we can look at the time at which football is played. Most people focus on when Linfield, Glentoran, Cliftonville, Distillery or Carrick Rangers are playing. We do not need to focus on that. We need to focus on when other people are playing. Amateur and junior football teams play at the same time that the semi-professional teams play. We must focus on that problem and co-ordinate the games.
It is not just a matter of Government or the Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure facilitating the process. We need to tell those in the Irish Football Association (IFA) and the Irish Football League (IFL) who have responsibility that they must do certain things before the money will be made available. We are not a charity; we are here to save our national sport.
No one can argue that soccer is not a traditional sport for people from both communities. We must get people back into football grounds, and we must improve the quality of play. Most people think that the quality of play in the Irish Premier League is not very good. I watch the games every week, and I can assure Members that the quality is good. However, the League does not get proper media coverage.
There is also a focus on sectarianism. We are told that sectarianism is an evil in sport and that it keeps away the crowds. How does that explain the large crowds who watch Linfield play Cliftonville? Do one team’s fans really stay away because of the sectarianism of the opposing fans? There has been little trouble in the past few years. The football clubs have made an effort, as have the IFA and the IFL, and that should be recognised. The way to get rid of hooliganism and sectarianism is to implement the recommendations contained in the Taylor report. The report recommends all-seater stadiums and a ticketing system that means that people should purchase tickets in their own name, that the tickets should be numbered and that people should have to sit in the allocated seats. If that happened, CCTV could show where the trouble was, and it could be quickly eradicated. We must focus on such improvements, but first we must get the crowds back to football.
There has been talk about developing junior soccer. In England, football academies have been set up because of the cost of buying players. The Football Association has set up its own school of excellence. We should do that in Northern Ireland, and we should also set up football academies in each of the six counties. That is the way to develop soccer.
People have suggested that we could restrict the opportunities for young players to move across the water. That is nonsense. Most parents who know that Liverpool, Manchester United, Leeds, Arsenal or Newcastle football clubs are interested in their child get pound signs in front of their eyes. In England, Arsenal paid £1 million for a fourteen-year-old — nobody here can compete with that. We must ensure that players who do not make it in England have somewhere to go in the Irish Premier League if they come back to Northern Ireland.
We cannot compete with the money in England, where clubs get billions of pounds for television coverage. We do not have that potential, so we need to understand what we have, how we can market it and what it is worth. We should not inhibit young players from Northern Ireland, who are the future of the international team, from going to England. If those children will be better players as a result of going over there, that is in the interest of Northern Ireland. Local clubs must make sure that they get players at the standard that they need.
I accept what Mr Hilditch said about local councils. I did not realise that rates were paid on the football side alone — I thought that rates were paid for the social clubs. We need to address that, but local councils should look at what the football clubs can do for them. We should also consider the fact that local councils subsidise leisure centres and theatres that probably do not draw the crowds that football grounds would, if we packaged football properly. Local councils should look at how they could subsidise football grounds and clubs. Belfast City Council would have a problem, because there are four football teams, but the council should examine ways of resolving it.
The Minister said that many football fans leave these shores on a weekly basis to go to matches in Scotland and England. I have spoken to staff at the airports and ports, who tell me that approximately 5,500 fans leave these shores every week. If that figure is multiplied by the 38 matches in the Premier League, it gives some idea of how many people from here attend those matches.
It is important that the Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure shows leadership. I said earlier that I did not think that we should facilitate this strategy, but rather we should show leadership and tell people what they need to do. I am not advocating dictatorship, but we should resolve problems. I do not want this strategy — and I am sure other Members do not want it — simply because two bodies cannot agree. The Assembly must agree on what should be done and must ensure that people understand what needs to happen.
The document discusses the "image of soccer", and I am not sure what that refers to. It may be a reference to the quality of play by the teams or individual players, or it may refer to the image the fans bring to the game. Whatever it refers to, the image of football must be improved. Family membership and disabled supporters must be looked after, and grounds must be fitted out to ensure the safety of those people. That is outlined in the Taylor report, and it is important that we work on it.
My recommendation is that we proceed and that we look to the Taylor report for guidance. Did we or did we not receive money, and, if we did, has it been used for ground improvements? The report refers to football in Great Britain and Northern Ireland, so if we did not receive money, we should be asking for it now. Other changes that involve taxes, people going through turnstiles not being charged VAT, and so forth can be dealt with by the British Government at Westminster. Rates can be dealt with locally.
The Government must come up with a scheme whereby businessmen are encouraged to invest in football. The Taylor report mentions one manager who took his children to a Tottenham Hotspur game where McDonald’s burgers were on sale. I do not think that we will get a McDonald’s in every football ground in Northern Ireland, but businesses must be asked to start putting money back into football here. Club chairmen and directors must be asked to examine the vision for football. There is a clear vision for football in the Taylor report, chapter 2 ‘A Better Future for Football’, paragraph 59. If we achieve that vision, we will have achieved everything we can for a wonderful game.
Alban Maginness (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast North)
Mr Hutchinson said that we need to get the crowds back to football matches in order to lift the game. But how do we get those crowds back, and how do we make the sport popular again? There is no doubt that soccer is universally popular. No other sport has such appeal —from South America to Europe to Africa. Soccer is the premier game in most countries. The Minister said that we were in the lead in the development of modern soccer, and that is true historically. However, something has happened along the line to cause local soccer to fall into decline.
This discussion document is, therefore, very timely, looking as it does at the problems associated with local soccer. This survey does not arrive at any conclusions, but it maps out areas of concern and suggests possible conclusions. The report is very useful indeed, and the Minister deserves great credit for initiating it.
The Minister also deserves great credit from the Assembly for his forthright rejection of any form of sectarianism in sport, particularly soccer, and for the political leadership that he has shown.
A number of issues need to be tackled, and this survey highlights them. Poor facilities is one such issue, and many Members have touched upon it. It is clear from the report that players and the public all regard poor facilities as a major problem. It is also clear from it that football matches, indeed soccer in general, are not seen as family-friendly and are ill-equipped in other ways as well.
There are other reasons for soccer’s decline such as the extensive television coverage of high-quality professional football in Britain, Europe and throughout the world. Obviously, that has had an adverse impact on local soccer, because local soccer cannot compete with that. In addition, the attraction of premier league teams in Britain has produced a talent drain here. One cannot blame youngsters for being attracted to English clubs in particular. One could not practically or lawfully prevent youngsters from going across the water to improve their quality of play and their standard of living. There are other factors at work, some of which I have highlighted and are highlighted in the report, factors that are also at work in the Irish Republic and other parts of Britain.
We have unique problems with football. The survey identifies hooliganism and sectarianism as major problems. One can see from the survey that sectarianism is having an impact on attendance at international football and Irish League games. Sadly there is a division of opinion about the impact of sectarianism. Those perceived to be Protestants say that sectarianism negatively impacts on attendance at international matches by 36%, and those perceived to be Catholics say that it is by 83%.
At Irish League games, in the Protestant community it is seen as 26%, and in the Catholic community, 56%. I use those figures to highlight the fact that the Catholic community is more concerned about sectarianism impacting on attendance at Irish League clubs and international matches. That must be taken into consideration. It is fair to say that throughout the whole community there is great concern about the impact of sectarianism on football. We must address that as a community.
I agree with Billy Hutchinson that we as politicians must give leadership; we must show leadership in relation to sectarianism. Our Minister has given a lead in that regard. Any strategy that we develop in relation to the revival of local soccer must address the problem of sectarianism. I do not pretend that there is an easy solution to this. The issue must be addressed in a practical way before we can develop a more universal appeal for soccer and football in Northern Ireland.
If one looks at the popularity of rugby and gaelic football, one can see that the community has to some extent walked away from soccer. We must examine that to see what is happening, not just in the Catholic or Protestant community, but in the whole community.
It would be useful to look at the emphasis that is put on field sports in our schools. Do our schools put too much emphasis on rugby and gaelic football to the detriment of soccer? I do not see a tremendous emphasis on soccer in any school, whether Catholic or Protestant, controlled or maintained. At both primary and secondary levels, in both secondary intermediate and grammar schools, we should look at the sort of emphasis that is placed on the development of soccer as part of the physical education agenda of those schools. If we do not get that base correct in our schools, then soccer is going to have a continuous uphill struggle. Therefore I suggest that we look at that very carefully.
Danny Kennedy (UUP, Newry and Armagh)
I am grateful for the opportunity to participate in this important debate. I warmly commend the Minister for bringing it to the House and also for his commitment to soccer. It is welcome that a Northern Ireland Minister of the Assembly should be so committed to the issue of local football. The soccer strategy for Northern Ireland report and its introduction have been widely welcomed by those in the game.
I agree largely with what the Member for North Belfast, Mr Hutchinson, said earlier. For many years, soccer provided an essential community outlet for youngsters in Northern Ireland to get away from and break out of sectarian strangleholds. It granted them the opportunity to employ their talents and show their sporting skills in a positive way, rather than engaging in other activities.
The Assembly and the community in Northern Ireland owes soccer a great debt and should be in a position to repay some of that debt.
We have a great sporting tradition, particularly in soccer, in Northern Ireland. Peter Doherty, Danny Blanchflower — whom, allegedly, I am called after — Pat Jennings and George Best all crossed the sectarian divide. They all played with passion and pride for their clubs and for Northern Ireland. I have always regarded Windsor Park as the home of local soccer and as the national stadium of Northern Ireland. It has never caused me a problem to go there, along with people from all religions and of no religion.
I remember in 1981, in the dark days of this Province, when other events were taking place, the Northern Ireland soccer team provided a real boost for people of both communities and all traditions with its exploits on the field. The team of Martin O’Neill, Sammy McIlroy, Gerry Armstrong and Willie Hamilton provided a cross- community element that was worthy of great support and touched a raw nerve in the passion of local football. That team lifted the spirits and the morale of people in Northern Ireland. I am satisfied that the team and the fans who supported it were made up of the Catholic and Protestant communities in Northern Ireland.
I am surprised and disappointed to hear negative comments from perceived Nationalist elected representatives who are not able to give their support to the Northern Ireland international team. That is a huge mistake. It is incumbent on all public representatives to show proper leadership.
I have heard Kieran McCarthy, the Member for Strangford, on a number of occasions holding forth on the issue of sectarianism. I am not aware, and perhaps Mr McCarthy at some stage will inform the House, what his involvement and commitment to local soccer has been. Is it simply to grab a cheap and easy headline at the expense of those who love and cherish football? I sometimes wonder if Kieran McCarthy would know if a ball were blown up or stuffed, given some of his less informed comments.
Kieran McCarthy (Alliance, Strangford)
I did not play for Ards, but I certainly played —
Jane Morrice (NIWC, North Down)
Order.
Danny Kennedy (UUP, Newry and Armagh)
No doubt he will inform the House when he gets an available moment.
I have some concern that attempts are being made to undermine Windsor Park as the national stadium of Northern Ireland. We should recognise the very strenuous efforts made by the International Football Association (IFA) and others and Linfield Football Club in creating neutral conditions and being actively opposed to sectarianism at Windsor Park. I firmly believe that Windsor Park should continue to be developed as the national stadium for Northern Ireland.
Mention of the national stadium project brings forward the idea that it can be a multisport facility. There are considerable objections from the GAA to that. The playing of any other code would appear to rule out the GAA’s sharing a multi-purpose stadium. However, that remains to be seen.
I will say in respect of Alban Maginness’s comments on the GAA that it is not unfair to remind him that Gaelic sport is almost exclusively Catholic and Nationalist. That is a fair point to raise, and to draw to his attention, when he makes a comparison with local soccer.
A plea should be made and supported for available moneys to be provided to local clubs. I am thinking of Irish League clubs, intermediate clubs, youth clubs — indeed, the full range. I include in that Newry Town football club, Armagh City football club and Loughgall in my constituency. A range of activity is provided, week in, week out, day in, day out, to develop young people’s soccer skills and give them an outlet for their abilities.
I want to see schools’ football and the football of other leagues cherished and developed. I take the point raised by Alban Maginness that in our schools, a greater emphasis should, perhaps, be placed on local soccer by those in charge. Every encouragement should be given. Broadly speaking, I welcome the strategy. I wish the Minister well and trust that something will be done to preserve and cherish local football.
Oliver Gibson (DUP, West Tyrone)
I welcome this report as an interim move. I am rather disappointed that it did not start with the Taylor report of twelve years ago, which is generally regarded as the vision statement for football. It is disappointing to find that PricewaterhouseCoopers did not seem to be aware of it.
I was rather taken aback by the fact that in the executive summary, the report offers no short-term or long-term solutions, nor does it give an estimate of costs. It is hoped that a strategy will emerge from within the sport itself. That was disappointing, given that it was supposed to be an exhaustive exercise in finding out what was going on in local soccer.
I do not want to speak about professional teams in the Irish Premier League. I want to speak about rural teams that often take their names from townlands, teams such as the Dunbreen Rovers, Killen, Killymore, Derg Valley and Beragh Scorchers. These are really the people who live football. They are not paid, but they play a game weekly. Members who talk about the decline of football should be very aware that in the west of the Province the clamour is for an adequate pitch.
In Strabane or Omagh council areas, there is a queue of people each Monday morning to book football pitches, but there are never enough available. There is a great demand, which means that instead of soccer’s being on the decline, it is still the most popular sport.
I am asking the Minister for some very simple help, so that rural football teams in the west of the Province can have changing rooms and shelter at a match. We are not asking for seated stadiums. We are simply asking that football, which is part of the healthy living encouraged by the Department of Health, Social Services and Public Safety and so much enjoyed by young people, be promoted.
I am certain that the seven big premier clubs can look after themselves. They can get the money to create an image and can get the sponsorship that will help them develop their talents. Their talent base depends upon the people for whom I am lobbying this afternoon — the little rural clubs. Those clubs create the pool of people to supply the larger clubs.
Why has there not been a development officer appointed to help with the form filling and with developing the clubs in the west of the Province. A school of excellence should be set up in Tyrone and Fermanagh, where there is a very good league. Two or three pages in the local papers are devoted to the activities of the local soccer team every week.
In Omagh, we used to have a very popular competition, called the Battisti Cup. On Saturday afternoons, the whole farming community stopped its work and went to Omagh showgrounds to see all the local football teams compete in the Battisti Cup. The sectarian activity of the IRA killed the Battisti Cup in the 1970s. Because those groups were threatened, the next tranche of lottery funding should be given to local football.
I have already told the Minister that, in West Tyrone, the GAA got 49% of the money, and soccer got 4%. We all know that the GAA is sectarian and exists exclusively for one community. On the other hand, soccer is cross- community, and the next tranche of money should restore the balance and allow teams such as Dunbreen Rovers, Newtownstewart Rovers, Killymore Rovers, Killen Rovers and Beragh Scorchers to have basic facilities such as changing rooms. That would enable small rural clubs to remain active and would do more to promote football than many of the major professional clubs do. The small clubs really make a contribution, and I encourage the Minister to provide the basic support needed to enable football to thrive.
Fraser Agnew (UUAP, Belfast North)
I welcome the opportunity to discuss local soccer. I am heavily involved in soccer at all stages. On Saturday mornings, I am involved in a soccer academy involving 200 primary school children and six teams, which is completely mixed, both the coaching staff and the children themselves. We take part in soccer festivals, involving teams from all over the United Kingdom and from across the border. On Saturday afternoons, I write about soccer for some of the local papers. I watch teams who play in the first and second divisions.
There is not much wrong with football in Northern Ireland. I hear uninformed discussion about the state of the local game. There are many problems in the game, and the people involved in soccer are aware of them.
I do not see sectarianism as a problem in the local game. If Members want to know how to make money out of sectarianism, let them go to Glasgow and see what happens there, and they can see how money is made out of racism in soccer if they go to parts of England. Those problems do not exist in local football.
For parents who want to bring their children to a local soccer game the biggest problem is foul language. That is a bigger problem than the perceived problem of sectarianism.
I have travelled to soccer grounds all over the Province reporting on games. I have gone to Donegal Celtic, and there were no problems, even though they made sure that I knew that they knew who I was. Some weeks ago I was at Lurgan Celtic, and I faced no problems there. The club was playing Linfield Swifts in one of the cup competitions. The Linfield team had no difficulty going there, and the Lurgan Celtic people had no difficulty accepting them because they were united in one thing — football. They were all passionately involved in soccer.
I accept that Lurgan Celtic people are all Roman Catholics who live in a Roman Catholic area. That is expected in Northern Ireland. I do not go along with the talk that sectarianism is one of the big problems in local soccer.
The Irish Cup Final was a glorious occasion. There was a bigger crowd there than would be at an international football match. I wonder why. It is nonsense to say that people are staying away from international matches because of sectarianism or because they are at Windsor Park. The product on display is what is keeping the fans away. They do not see the big names. They do not see the George Bests or the Martin O’Neills playing in a Northern Ireland shirt. Those are the sort of players who attract people to a game. Perhaps if England came to Windsor Park, the crowds would go to see Manchester United players playing in an England shirt. That is what attracts people to games. Sectarianism does not keep people away from games.
At present great things are happening in the local soccer scene, particularly at junior level. There are soccer academies from one end of the Province to the other — not just the one that I am involved in. We were tied up with Coventry City for a long time, and then the Football Association in its wisdom decided that soccer academies should not exist outside a 90-mile radius of a soccer ground. Most of the premier division teams in England can get round that.
The soccer academy that I am involved in has sent several players to Coventry City. Two children that I helped coach have signed for Coventry City. They were coached from when they were seven and eight until they were 15 and 16 years old. Two of them at 17 years of age are now on Coventry City’s books, and that is very satisfying. All over the Province, from the north-west to Fermanagh, clubs are heavily involved in coaching children in soccer. We can take tremendous satisfaction from that.
Some Members may be surprised that I was on Cliftonville’s books. I stayed there for about a year until the late Davy Bennett told me that I was too small and too light and that Cliftonville was letting me go. I ended up playing for Brantwood for two years until it more or less told me the same thing. I ended up playing for Harland & Wolff Welders and the Civil Service in the amateur league, so I know the local game.
There are good things at all levels of the game: the soccer academies; the coaching; and the involvement of children. Linfield has a tremendous cross-community scheme with Dundalk and has formed Dunfield. It is working. Linfield is bringing children from both sides of the border to play football. Religion does not come into it. The children just want to play soccer. Those schemes are starting to pay off, and that can be seen through the tournaments and soccer academies. Skills are being developed.
I would be foolish, and it would be wrong of me were I not to acknowledge that there are some difficulties in the local game. However, I do not see those difficulties in the way that others see them. At premier division and, perhaps, first division level many of the difficulties have more to do with how the clubs are run. There is a lack of business acumen in the game. In the area that I come from, teams such as Larne, Ballyclare Comrades and Carrick Rangers all have grave financial difficulties. Those difficulties, how they have been managed and the resultant court cases have been documented, and this is not the only area with problems.
There is an argument that some clubs in east Antrim should amalgamate. However, I am not sure if those clubs will want to give up their status. Larne will always want to be Larne; Ballyclare Comrades will always want to be Ballyclare Comrades; and Carrick Rangers will always want to be Carrick Rangers, so holding on to what we have is one of the local difficulties.
It would be wrong not to acknowledge those difficulties. Player’s demands have been too great, and they have been paid too much money. However, that is changing, because there is no longer money in the game, and the stadiums are not as they should be.
So much nonsense is talked about the local game. We went through a period where people wanted to see a premier division club coming to Belfast. That was pie in the sky. It was absolute nonsense. Local football associations determine where teams play. When Derry City wanted to opt out of the Irish League they had to get permission from the IFA. That also applies to teams outside the IFA’s jurisdiction who wanted to play outside their own local association — they have to get permission to do so.
Bringing in a premier division team was never going to work, and there were other reasons involved. For instance, Wimbledon — who have been relegated in any case — could have been playing at home against some awful team. The following week they could be playing away. There would not have been any continuity.
It is more important that money is poured into existing stadiums before we think of building a new national stadium. Plenty of them need to be upgraded, and they need to be brought up to the standard set out in the Taylor report, much of which has not been implemented in Northern Ireland. This has helped to create some of the hardship, aside from the difficulties arising from the way some of the clubs have been run. Malfunctioning and maladministration have taken place.
On the other hand, Danny Kennedy mentioned Armagh City and Loughgall football clubs — two junior teams that are exceptionally well structured and well run. They have poured money into their grounds and their clubs; they have new stadiums and new dressing rooms. On Saturday I visited my old club, Brantwood, who are building a new dressing room — although they need a new team more than a new dressing room. Therefore some clubs are progressing and are looking at the idea of involving children from the surrounding areas.
When I was young and played football I was lucky if I got a warm bath. Sometimes, running water was a luxury. I had to wash in the river on many occasions. Sometimes that applied to those of us who were playing at a reasonable level. I remember when I played at Brantwood — and perhaps I should not reminisce in this fashion — we had a Nissen hut and a communal bath. The water was freezing most of the time, and 22 players were jumping into it. Unmentionable parts were turning blue with the cold — so you had to get out pretty quickly. All of that has changed, and no one would dream of going into a dressing room on a park pitch that did not have a proper warm shower.
Some questions have to be asked about the task force. Why have Martin O’Neill, Sammy McIlroy and Iain Dowey not attended a single meeting? Sammy McIlroy is the manager of the international soccer team. I believe he has resigned. Is it because he has an interest in what might happen when the task force report comes out? I am disappointed that the manager of the Northern Ireland football team did not attend a single meeting.
When David Hilditch and I attended the soccer strategy weekend in Newcastle, it was interesting to note that some of the people from the IFA were reluctant to join us. There was no sign of the international team manager, yet the former manager, Brian Hamilton, was there. He took part in the discussion and the debate. He paid his own way over and certainly went up in a lot of people’s estimation. Where was the Northern Ireland team manager?
The game needs to be restructured and reorganised, and I am hoping that the task force will address some of those issues. The biggest difficulty is that the people involved in the game need to look at the game itself. Perhaps the task force report can help those people to change the game from within.
There is a lack of business acumen, and that is one of the most important aspects of the local game that needs to be addressed. Someone has come up with the daft idea that we need a 20-league structure. That is not going to happen. Things like that will not help the game.
Football will continue to flourish in Northern Ireland. Thousands of people will still play soccer on a Saturday morning or afternoon — if we are worried about attendances we may have to vary the times of the kick-offs, as my Friend Mr Billy Hutchinson suggested. I am not sure whether that would be the answer. I am quite happy to go to Windsor Park on a Saturday afternoon, as I have a season ticket there. However, more often than not I am on the terraces at Loughgall, Armagh City, Brantwood, Dundela, Carrick Rangers and Larne, covering those games for the local papers. I enjoy doing that, and it gives me an insight into the difficulties that exist in a great game.
We need more money to improve the stadiums, and we also need business astuteness in the clubs, but there is no sense pouring money into clubs if they are not going to handle their affairs correctly. Members know what I am talking about.
Derek Hussey (UUP, West Tyrone)
Does Mr Agnew agree that in the overall restructuring, the junior intermediate clubs must be involved and that the senior clubs should be liaising more with other clubs? I would also like to take the opportunity of correcting one of Mr Gibson’s statements. He talked about the lack of a development officer in the Fermanagh and Western league. I assure him that Mr Trevor Erskine, the IFA development officer in that area, works with all the clubs Mr Gibson mentioned and does an excellent job.
Fraser Agnew (UUAP, Belfast North)
Mr Erskine has also worked with women’s football, and he has probably got more kick out of that than the other sort of football. He played for Glentoran and Dungannon Swifts at one time.
Restructuring is important. The Irish Football Association employs 27 people to run the international team and the Nationwide Irish Cup. The other associations such as the County Antrim FA, the North-West FA, the Mid-Ulster League and the Fermanagh and District all run their own tournaments. One of the IFA’s worries in restructuring into a single body is what would happen to all those tournaments. It does not believe that it has the resources or staff to manage all of that.
Football has an important part to play in developing and securing its own future. I fear that there are too many people in the game who are not forward thinking and who want to hold on to their own positions. I have some doubts about what the report from the task force may do. I hope it will encourage the football authorities in Northern Ireland to take the necessary steps to secure the future of local football.
There is no doubt about the future of football in general. More and more children are playing the game than have ever played it before; there are more coaching schemes, and there are more qualified coaches. There are many good things that can secure its future if we can sort out the problems in structure and organisation at the head of affairs in the local game. We need to get rid of some of the dead wood.
Michael McGimpsey (UUP, Belfast South)
There has been a great deal of interest and passion in this motion, as I anticipated. Many points have been made, and while I noted them, it will be difficult to respond to all of them. Mr Gibson made the point — although I note that he is not present — that he was disappointed because the report came up with no long- or medium-term solutions or costings.
He was mistaken, because this is not the end of the process; it is a progress report on where we are right now. We have had a widespread consultation process with the stakeholders. We had a workshop in February; we have a report, and we are going forward with a number of issues.
It is important to tell Mr Billy Hutchinson that the costs involved are not attributed to consultants, but they have been incurred in the consultation process and the conference, and they reflect the fact that we went out to meet the community at a number of venues in Northern Ireland. We consulted with grass-roots supporters, stakeholders, the IFA, the Irish Football League and representatives of schoolboy and youth soccer. We looked at areas such as women’s soccer and access for those suffering from disabilities. This has been a widespread consultation. It has not been a small subject to deal with, and it has taken time.
I agree that we expected to be ready to publish our draft strategy now. We are about three months late. The reasons are the size of the subject and the number of topics that have been raised. Most of the topics that have been raised this morning are issues that we are familiar with. It is important that we do this properly.
Mr Billy Hutchinson talked about the Taylor report and the moneys that flowed from it for football in England, Scotland and Wales, amounting to some £500 million or £600 million. The point is that all that money has been spent. It is gone. That money came primarily from the football pools. When the National Lottery came in, the pools revenue went down. By the time we came into operation here about 18 months ago and started chasing the money, it had largely been dissipated.
We are now in a new situation. We have opportunities under the National Lottery, which provides a portion of funding to sport, including football. However, it is true to say that we are left to our own devices to some extent. On keeping funding moving, we are looking at presenting business cases to the Department of Finance and Personnel. We do not expect it or the Assembly to provide all the moneys, but we will be making business cases on funding in the future.
Points were made about the development of rural pitches and playing fields and the smaller and intermediate clubs. I stress — particularly to Members who are local councillors — that the Recreation and Youth Service (Northern Ireland) Order 1986 requires each district council to be responsible for the development of adequate sports and recreation facilities in its own area. It would be appropriate for Members to talk to their local councillors and make those representations to their local councils. It is unfortunate that local councils often do not discharge their responsibilities, but members of those councils come in here and expect the Assembly to do it for them.
Mr ONeill made a point about the good practice of the Belfast Giants. The Belfast Giants ice hockey team has been a spectacular success, and it has exceeded all expectations. It is important to say that the Belfast Giants are the beneficiaries of a £45 million, state-of-the-art stadium. That is one of the reasons why they are doing so well. Currently almost anything that goes on in the arena does well, whether it be ice hockey or some other form of entertainment. The stadium does a lot for the game of ice hockey, but it also gives us a benchmark to measure the standards that we are aiming for. It demonstrates that families will go out to watch live sports providing the facilities are of the standard that they have come to expect.
A number of areas have been highlighted by the strategy process — for example, media coverage, community development, how to get families in and the creation of a vision for football. These have all been touched on. It was wrong for Mr Agnew to say that there was a great deal of uninformed comment. I have to point out that the members of the strategy group of the advisory panel are not uninformed.
Consultations through the IFA, IFL, schoolboy soccer, youth and intermediate soccer were very widespread. The Sports Council and education and library boards were also involved. It is wrong to say that those consulted were largely uninformed — it is quite the opposite. As a result, we have a very comprehensive agenda and set of issues to deal with.
The Taylor report, as quoted by Mr Hutchinson, said that a vision for soccer was needed. This is about where we want football to be in 5, 10 or 20 years’ time. What are the issues, and how do we tackle them? What are the problems, and how do we solve them? That is what the process is about, not least because football is something of value.
As I said earlier, the IFA is the fourth oldest football organisation in the world. England formed the first association, followed by Scotland, Wales and then here. Football is part of our culture and heritage. It also goes beyond Northern Ireland and is of international value.
I believe strongly that sport does a great deal for our image and self-esteem at home and abroad, and how we conduct ourselves in sport is very important. That is one of the reasons why the advisory panel is looking at best practice in other countries.
The panel went to France to look at their football academies. They are the present European champions and world champions. The panel is seeking to replicate that type of success here. A UK sports institute, which is part of the UK-wide network of institutes of sporting excellence, is planned in Jordanstown, where football will be one of the key sports.
I cannot answer all of the points, because there were so many. However, it is heartening to see such a widespread interest in the House. Indeed, only Sinn Féin failed to make a response. All other parties see football as important and as something that is part of the whole community, regardless of an individual’s background.
Mr Alban Maginness and Mr McCarthy mentioned sectarianism in sport. The reason why football may suffer is that the two communities come together in football. They do not come together in Gaelic, because that largely involves one community only. In Gaelic sport, passions are roused, and there are, perhaps, instances of unsportsmanlike behaviour, but you do not get the same level of passion that you do in soccer, because soccer is an interface sport. We all feel strongly about soccer, and that is why it has played such an important role over the past 30 years and has such an important role to play in the future. It is something that gives us all a common purpose.
Other members, such as Danny Kennedy, talked about the future of Windsor Park and of a national stadium. An international sports stadium is one of the nine areas in the cocktail and is a matter for discussion. Such a facility would be greatly helped by the inclusion of rugby, Gaelic and athletics. However, it may not be possible to include those sports.
Gaelic sports may want to develop their own grounds — they have yet to give us a formal response. Rugby wants to leave Ravenhill but needs to determine its future yet. It is difficult to see how athletics could be merged into an international stadium while retaining the atmosphere required by international football.
We all feel passionately about this, and it has excited great interest among the general public. You only have to look at the attendances and responses we received when we took the travelling roadshow around Northern Ireland, and members of the public discussed the subject with the advisory panel. We hope to have that process completed by September. We will then compile a draft strategy, which will go for consultation to provide us with the action plan. We must get consensus.
Billy Hutchinson said that we should tell the IFA and the IFL what is going to happen and how things are going to be — but that is not the way forward. We have to come to a consensus on this. The football family has a common purpose, which is to make the sport thrive; to reinforce it, sustain it, and improve it. It is not for me or for the House to tell the IFA or the IFL how to improve their sport. Our task is to facilitate discussion and to help and support them in their endeavours to reinforce their sport. — [Interruption]. I am sorry I did not pick up the comment that was made from a sedentary position. I do not know what was said.
It is important that we go for consensus and not prescription. Generally speaking, prescription is counterproductive.
Billy Hutchinson (PUP, Belfast North)
I said that if we wait for the IFA and the IFL to have some sort of consensus, we will still be discussing this issue in 20 years time. We need to be prescriptive.
Michael McGimpsey (UUP, Belfast South)
Although the proof of the pudding will be in the eating — and we have to see this strategy evolve towards the end of the year — it is fair to say that the IFA and the IFL have played a very important part in our discussions so far. I am very optimistic about getting something out of this approach that will provide us with consensus. I do not believe that it will take 20 years for the IFA and the IFL to reach agreement. I have been very heartened by the number of areas that they agree on and by the ideas that they have suggested. Although they have a conservative image I have been heartened by their inventiveness, creativity and approach. It is often a matter of bringing ideas and people together, and that is what we are about. In September we expect to be in a position to bring forward a draft action plan for discussion. I look forward to listening again to the views of Members.
Question put and agreed to.
Resolved:
That this Assembly notes the publication of the report ‘Creating a Soccer Strategy for Northern Ireland – views of the stakeholders’ and notes the progress made on the development of the strategy.
Sitting was suspended at 2.13 pm.
On resuming (Mr Deputy Speaker [Sir John Gorman] in the Chair) —