Northern Ireland Assembly, 27 November 2007

263 contributions from 53 members. The official report.

Assembly Business

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

At the start of the sitting on Tuesday 20 November, Mr Storey sought a ruling on the issue of a Deputy Speaker having voted on a motion after being in the Chair for part of the debate on that motion. I agreed to come back to the House with a ruling on that matter.

In the case to which Mr Storey referred, I have established that the Deputy Speaker was in the Chair for three minutes, or slightly less. In that time he gave advice to the House on a petition of concern and on the time that had been allocated to the debate.

The Deputy Speaker heard only a very small portion of the opening speech in the debate, and was not required to intervene during that time.

The Deputy Speaker was in the Chair for that short time through no fault of his own. He was due to leave the Chair before the debate commenced. There was an unfortunate delay in my arrival to relieve him, and the Deputy Speaker, quite rightly, continued with business when the previous item on the Order Paper had concluded.

In this instance, the Deputy Speaker’s voting — or not voting — would not have altered the overall result.

Nevertheless, our convention has been that Deputy Speakers do not participate in debates during which they have occupied the Chair. That is clear from page 13 of ‘The Assembly Companion’ and, in my view, voting on a motion or an amendment clearly qualifies as participation in a debate. With hindsight — despite the very brief time that the Deputy Speaker spent in the Chair — I should have advised Deputy Speakers not to involve themselves in a vote at the conclusion of a debate during which they have been in the Chair.

I shall ensure that, in future, that convention is adhered to, and I thank Mr Storey for this example of what I described last week as a valid and helpful point of order.

I have made my ruling, and the matter is closed.

Maurice (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

On a point of order, Mr Speaker. I hear what you have said, and I draw your attention to Standing Order 25(2). I understand that not only did the Deputy Speaker preside and vote but had signed the petition of concern that had been presented on the motion that was being debated.

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

I thank Lord Morrow for that helpful point of order. I can assure him that it is has been noted.

Jim Wells (DUP, South Down)

Further to that point of order, Mr Speaker. Will you accept that it is entirely inappropriate for a Deputy Speaker of this House to sign a petition of concern and then to sit in the Chair, albeit for a brief period, during the debate on the motion on which he has signed a petition of concern? Will you rule that that is inappropriate and should not happen in the future?

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

I thank the Member for his point of order. I have ruled that no Deputy Speaker who has been in the Chair during a debate should be involved in the voting on that motion. I am absolutely clear on that.

Mervyn Storey (DUP, North Antrim)

On a further point of order, Mr Speaker. Will you also make a ruling on the issue of the validity of the petition of concern? If the Deputy Speaker had signed the petition of concern and had given advice regarding it when in the Chair, surely the petition of concern is brought into question and rather than having the required 30 signatures would have only 29?

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

My advice is absolutely clear: the petition of concern was valid — very much so.

Mervyn Storey (DUP, North Antrim)

On a further point of order, Mr Speaker. The Deputy Speaker to whom you refer seems to court some controversy. I ask the Speaker to rule on allegations that have been made in the House of Commons about a story in regard —

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

Order. I ask the Member to take his seat. I advise him not to stray into that particular area. He should not do that.

Mark Durkan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

On a point of order, Mr Speaker. Will you advise the House on what should happen in future? Clearly, the Deputy Speaker was in a situation that was unprecedented and unintended. Following your ruling today, in future, should the Deputy Speaker suspend the sitting until someone else can take the Chair or is he trapped in a situation that was not planned?

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

That situation will not arise again. I can assure the Member of that.

Ministerial Statement

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

I have received notice from the Minister of Enterprise, Trade and Investment that he wishes to make a statement regarding the North/South Ministerial Council tourism sectoral meeting.

Nigel Dodds (DUP, Belfast North)

In compliance with section 52 of the Northern Ireland Act 1998, I wish to make the following report on the first North/South Ministerial Council (NSMC) meeting in tourism sectoral format since the restoration of the Executive and the Assembly. The report has been endorsed by Michelle Gildernew. The meeting was held in Dublin Castle on 8 November 2007. I represented the Northern Ireland Executive as Minister of Enterprise, Trade and Investment along with Michelle Gildernew, Minister of Agriculture and Rural Development. The Irish Government were represented by Séamus Brennan, Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism.

The Council considered a report from Ms Ann Riordan, vice-chair of Tourism Ireland and welcomed the progress that that organisation has made since the last meeting in February 2002. The Council noted the strong growth in visitor numbers and revenue, which are forecast to have grown by 2·17 million and £0·87 billion respectively during that period, including an increase of 391,000 in the number of visitors to Northern Ireland.

The Council received a presentation on the future plans of Tourism Ireland from the chief executive officer. It welcomed the broad objectives outlined in Tourism Ireland’s three-year corporate plan, including the two key goals of increasing tourism to the island of Ireland as a whole and supporting Northern Ireland to realise its tourism potential. The Council welcomed the corporate plan’s challenging targets and approved, in principle, the Tourism Ireland corporate plan 2008-10 and the business plan for 2008, subject to budgetary considerations.

The Council also noted Tourism Ireland Ltd’s annual report and accounts for 2006. The Council agreed that the next meeting of the North/South Ministerial Council in tourism sectoral format should take place in spring 2008.

Mark Durkan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

I thank the Minister for his statement and I thank him and his ministerial colleagues for their work at the sectoral meeting.

Some time ago, the Committee for Enterprise, Trade and Investment had the benefit of a presentation from Tourism Ireland Ltd as well as those from other key interests. It is welcome to see a positive perspective on the success of Tourism Ireland Ltd in contributing to a growth in visitor numbers in the island as a whole, and in the North as well.

As Tourism Ireland Ltd takes forward that marketing responsibility, will the Minister, through the Council and his own office, take steps to ensure that Tourism Ireland Ltd is in a better position to engage with the regional tourism partnerships (RTPs) that are performing tourism functions and trying to market local areas? RTPs have been complaining to Committee members that they do not have the positive and active relationship with Tourism Ireland Ltd that would allow them to make the most of their marketing role.

Nigel Dodds (DUP, Belfast North)

I thank the Committee Chairperson for his remarks, and I assure him that as far as I am concerned the potential for tourism to contribute greatly to the economy of Northern Ireland is well recognised. We have an enormous opportunity to avail of that contribution as we move forward.

The Chairperson will be aware that the work of the various parts of the tourism industry was examined recently by the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee, which looked at the relationships between Tourism Ireland Ltd, the RTPs, the Northern Ireland Tourist Board (NITB) and all of the stakeholders in promoting tourism. It is something that I am looking at very carefully.

There is a distinction in marketing responsibilities between Tourism Ireland Ltd, which is responsible for marketing in GB and elsewhere, and the Northern Ireland Tourist Board, which is responsible for marketing in the Irish Republic and Northern Ireland and for product development. It is important that the RTPs are fully and properly engaged as appropriate with the Northern Ireland Tourist Board and Tourism Ireland Ltd, and they can be assured of my support in that regard.

David Simpson (DUP, Upper Bann)

Does the Minister agree that the annual demonstrations and other events organised by the Loyal Orders offer a unique opportunity to enhance Northern Ireland’s tourism potential, and would he give an indication of his plans to realise that potential?

Nigel Dodds (DUP, Belfast North)

Cultural tourism is a major part of the tourism product that most countries and regions offer. In Northern Ireland, particularly, that is something that we can exploit better as we move forward. All studies show that cultural tourism is a major motivator when it comes to travel. Sightseers and culture seekers account for 60% of visitors to the island of Ireland, and those numbers are growing.

The Member will be aware that the Northern Ireland Tourist Board has engaged with some of the Loyal Orders on the creation and promotion of Orangefest, and there is a lot of good work ongoing in relation to that. The Member will also be aware of a recent press release issued by the Orange Order in which it was very positive about its engagement with the Northern Ireland Tourist Board and Tourism Ireland Ltd in this matter.

There is enormous potential for exploiting greater tourism promise in what is a unique series of events in Northern Ireland, and I will work closely with the Northern Ireland Tourist Board and Tourism Ireland Ltd to realise that potential.

Willie Clarke (Sinn Féin, South Down)

Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. I thank the Minister for his statement.

It is all very well to talk about increasing the number of visitors, but did any discussion take place on the accommodation infrastructure? I refer to rural accommodation, and especially to hostels and low-budget accommodation. Does the Minister agree that the farming community needs to diversify? If the matter was not discussed at the sectoral meeting, will the Minister table it for inclusion in the spring?

Nigel Dodds (DUP, Belfast North)

If the Member reads the corporate plans and the other documents that were tabled for discussion at the North/South Ministerial Council tourism sectoral meeting, he will realise that they covered a vast range of issues.

Northern Ireland must do more. It must offer more tourism product, make the best of the skills available in the tourism industry and improve accommodation at all levels, and that includes improving hotel and hostel accommodation. My Department is not the only one responsible for improving the tourism industry — other Departments are also involved. However, we must make progress, because if we are to market Northern Ireland better, and bring more out-of-state visitors to the Province as a result, accommodation is needed in which to put them up.

I am pleased to note that progress has been made. Several rural areas are providing high-quality accommodation, not least County Fermanagh, which has a new golf hotel. Other parts of the Province are also making improvements. I will watch carefully to ensure that the accommodation infrastructure continues to improve and that we provide our visitors with the requisite standard of accommodation and number of bed places to meet the growing demand.

Leslie Cree (UUP, North Down)

Has the Minister any plans to attempt to combine all the industry players’ strategies when establishing the subregional tourism bodies?

Nigel Dodds (DUP, Belfast North)

I refer the Member to the answer that I gave a short time ago to the Chairman of the Committee for Enterprise, Trade and Investment, in which I dealt with precisely that matter. In my reply, I mentioned the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee’s report, in which it considered that issue. My Department is also con­sidering it. Greater clarity of roles and responsibilities among Tourism Ireland, the Northern Ireland Tourist Board and the regional tourism partnerships is necessary, and that will be addressed in the coming months as part of a wider review of departmental tourism-support organisations’ roles and responsibilities.

Stephen Farry (Alliance, North Down)

The Minister mentioned the increase in Northern Ireland’s tourist numbers and tourist revenue. In order to compare tourism as a percentage share of the economy in Northern Ireland with that in the Republic of Ireland, can he indicate what those increases have been overall? There has been a significant gap between the two countries’ levels of development over the years, and the House would be interested to learn whether that gap is closing or widening. Moreover, how can we take steps to rebalance tourism on the island of Ireland?

Nigel Dodds (DUP, Belfast North)

I thank the Member for his question, which is an important one. I refer the Member to the corporate plan for Tourism Ireland and to the accounts that contain the figures about which he enquired. As I have already said, those documents formed part of the discussions at the North/South Ministerial Council tourism sectoral meeting. He is absolutely right to point to the need to increase Northern Ireland’s percentage share of tourism revenue and visitor numbers for the island of Ireland. I am keen to ensure that that happens, because it is vital that we exploit our tourism potential.

We hope to have more up-to-date figures shortly, but the Member will be interested to note that a study that was conducted in 2003 into the value of the tourism industry to the Northern Ireland economy, and from which the most up-to-date figures come, found that the total income generated by tourism in that year was worth some 3·5% of gross value added (GVA) — £782 million — to the Northern Ireland economy. That study was one of the first of its kind into tourism and its contribution to the economy to be carried out anywhere in the United Kingdom and means that tourism activity supports some 36,700 jobs. Therefore, tourism makes a significant contribution to our economy. In fact, our tourism industry contributes four fifths of what our agriculture industry does to GVA.

It is an important contribution to the economy, but the Member is absolutely right to point to the unfulfilled potential and the need to close the gap with the Irish Republic. The targets that we have set out in the Programme for Government for increases in visitor numbers and revenue are challenging and different from what has gone before. Under direct rule, we would not have had that kind of focus on the economic benefits of tourism. Those challenging figures have been put there for a reason: because they can give a major, quick return to the economy.

Simon Hamilton (DUP, Strangford)

Can the Minister confirm that the Tourism Ireland brand review was discussed at the sectoral meeting? Can he give us an update on the progress of that review and on what its conclusions are likely to be?

Nigel Dodds (DUP, Belfast North)

The current brand has been in place since 1995, and refinements to it have been made on two occasions. A major exercise has been under way to look at the brand and reflect the changing nature of life in both Northern Ireland and the Irish Republic. It is important that the brand image that goes out across the world is appropriate to today’s circumstances. Tourism Ireland is finalising its report on the review, which will be launched to the tourism industry soon. Tourism Ireland will be launching a new marketing campaign to communicate the new brand message in 2009 and, in preparation for that, will be working with the industry in Northern Ireland and in the Irish Republic through­out next year to ensure full understanding of, and buy-in to, the brand and to develop industry’s awareness of its critical role in developing and delivering that.

Francie Brolly (Sinn Féin, East Londonderry)

Go raibh maith agat. My colleague Mr Clarke raised the issue of the lack of accommodation and the need to provide more. One of the tourist places in the north-west that is most famous in song and story is Portstewart. One by one, the hotels there have been demolished and replaced with apartments. The place has become an ugly dormitory for the university in Coleraine. Maybe we could move along the coast and look at what is probably the most beautiful part of the north-west and maybe the most beautiful part of Ireland: the Magilligan coast from Downhill to Derry city, with all the possibilities for activity tourism on the beach and on the water. I have made representations to our Southern counterparts, and they would —

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

Do I detect a question?

Francie Brolly (Sinn Féin, East Londonderry)

Will the Minister raise the whole issue of the north-west with his Southern counterpart when they meet again, and see what can be done to develop what is a place of great potential, for tourism and otherwise?

Nigel Dodds (DUP, Belfast North)

The Member may be reassured to know that I do not have to wait for the next meeting with my Southern counterparts to deal with that issue. We are addressing it already, and will continue to do so. He mentioned the issue of accommodation, which has also been raised previously. It is, as I have said, a matter that we are very conscious of. It will obviously involve a major contribution from the private sector. I know that some Members have a problem with that, but if we are to see the accommodation issue moving forward, the private sector will have to become more active in that whole area, in terms of both the provision of accommodation and the quality of the experience that is offered to people who stay.

The Member will be aware of the Walled City signature project in the north-west; it has received a lot of support, and has progressed very well. It is already making an impact on tourist numbers for the city of Londonderry. Major work has also been done in the Causeway Coast area as part of the signature project programme. The outlook for tourism in the north-west, and in the north of the Province generally, is extremely positive.

It is one of our major attractions, and the input of funding and resources will increase that. With regard to accommodation, anyone in the private sector who looks ahead at economic growth will realise that there are enormous opportunities in Northern Ireland, given the expected increase in visitor numbers. The Minister of the Environment, who has responsibility for planning, is present, and I have no doubt that she has heard all that has been said. I hope that cognisance will be taken of the necessary balance between investment for tourist growth and the issues raised concerning planning while preserving the heritage.

Jim Shannon (DUP, Strangford)

I thank the Minister for his statement, in which tourism was specifically mentioned. I love taking a tour of the Irish coast, along Strangford Lough, to Killynether forest, or to Mount Stewart. Will the Minister elaborate on how he sees tourism in Northern Ireland providing the potential jobs and the economic boost for us all?

Nigel Dodds (DUP, Belfast North)

Several Members have waxed lyrical about the beauty of their own areas, and that is to be commended. I well remember an excellent Adjournment Debate on the beauties of Strangford: it saved the Northern Ireland Tourist Board from having to write its next brochure on that part of the world.

Mr Shannon, who is a Member for Strangford, mentioned potential. In response to Dr Farry, a Member for North Down, I spoke of the current economic contribution. At the onset of the Troubles more than 35 years ago, Northern Ireland lost 80% of its tourism overnight, and has never really recovered from that. A gap exists between those who visit the South and those who come here because of the legacy issues. When that gap is considered, there is enormous potential.

A country of Northern Ireland’s size and economy warrants more than the 5% to 7% of resident holiday visitors and approximately 50% of the business visitors from Great Britain who come here. Moreover, there are enormous opportunities to increase not only the number of visitors from Great Britain, but from the Republic. Had Northern Ireland matched, since 1969, the Republic of Ireland’s external-visitor trends, the income from tourism would have been worth an additional £0·25 billion. That shows the potential, and the enormous contribution that could be made to job creation in all parts of Northern Ireland.

Tom Elliott (UUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

I thank the Minister for his statement, and I suppose that, when Members are lauding their own areas, he will agree with me about County Fermanagh and its potential. I am curious to know whether there was any discussion about plans or proposals to develop the Republic of Ireland site of the Battle of the Boyne. That would increase tourist potential in that area.

Nigel Dodds (DUP, Belfast North)

The Member is right to point to the beauties of Fermanagh. He shares a position with me on that, since I was brought up there, and my parents still live there. I take delight in agreeing with him on that point.

It does not require a meeting of the North/South Ministerial Council for my Department to progress the matter of the Boyne heritage site and to be interested in discussing it. Many have pointed to its potential tourist growth and, to be fair, the Irish Government have been positive in their contribution. The Member can, therefore, be assured that on that issue — as on the beauties of Fermanagh — he and I are at one.

John Dallat (Social Democratic and Labour Party, East Londonderry)

I, too, welcome the Minister’s statement. With regard to Mr Simpson’s question on the role of the Orange Order, I have no doubt that, now that it has sent best wishes to the new Cardinal, there will be inquisitive visitors from all over the world.

Does the Minister agree that Tourism Ireland, with a base in Coleraine, is ideally suited to ensuring that Northern Ireland gets its fair share of international tourism?

Will the Minister ensure the House that the develop­ment of the lower River Bann and the reopening of the Ulster Canal remain at the top of the agenda in promoting international tourism?

Nigel Dodds (DUP, Belfast North)

The Member — quite rightly — raises the matter of the Ulster Canal, part of which is in his constituency. That issue primarily falls within the remit of the Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure (DCAL), and I am sure that that Department will note the Member’s comments.

The Member is talking about a tourism product for Northern Ireland. We have an ambitious and challenging target to increase the number of visitors to Northern Ireland to 2·5 million over the period of the next comprehensive spending review (CSR) to 2011. That means investing not only in marketing — which is Tourism Ireland Ltd’s job — but in product. Signature projects are important for economic growth, as is local tourism. I want to support all types of tourism product and see them grow. Northern Ireland has a natural beauty and landscape, but we must prioritise the creation of better-quality activities and the provision of more accommodation.

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. I welcome the Minister’s briefing on the North/South Ministerial Council’s tourism sectoral meeting. I wish to revisit an issue that was discussed in the House yesterday, but I am conscious of the Speaker’s advice about how far the matter can be pushed. Given the crossover in membership of the events company and the Tourist Board, is the Minister confident that the Tourist Board is in safe hands?

Nigel Dodds (DUP, Belfast North)

Given that the Tourist Board falls under the remit of my Department, I can give the Member a categorical assurance that it is in safe hands; I hope that he agrees with me.

As the Member said, the Northern Ireland Events Company, which is a matter for the Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure, was discussed in the House yesterday. In principle, it is planned, after all due diligence has been exercised, that the events company will merge with the Tourist Board as soon as possible. At this stage, I do not wish to comment any further, other than to say that I have confidence in the Tourist Board’s management and in the role of the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Investment (DETI).

Jeffrey M. Donaldson (DUP, Lagan Valley)

I declare an interest as a member of Lisburn City Council.

Will the Minister tell the House what discussions he has had with his counterpart in the South about the reopening of the Lagan Canal in order to develop the Belfast metropolitan area’s tourist potential? The Minister is a member of Belfast City Council, so he will know that Castlereagh Borough Council, Belfast City Council, Lisburn City Council and Craigavon Borough Council have formed a group to progress the reopening of the Lagan Canal. The canal is an important inland waterway that links into Lough Neagh and ultimately into the lower River Bann and Ulster Canal systems.

Nigel Dodds (DUP, Belfast North)

The Member has done an excellent, and appropriate, job in advertising the benefits of that scheme, in which various councils are participating. I agree with him about the scheme’s positive impact and the work that has been undertaken to date. He will be aware that that issue falls primarily within the remit of the Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure, and I will raise that point with my ministerial colleague.

My counterpart in the Irish Republic and I agree that it is absolutely vital to raise the quality and standard of the tourism product in order to increase the number of visitors and the revenue generated in the Irish Republic and in Northern Ireland. The project that the Member describes is a key element of that. I have no doubt that, when that project comes to fruition, it will be a big draw and will enhance Lisburn and Belfast.

Jennifer McCann (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

I thank the Minister for his briefing on the tourism sectoral meeting. I welcome his comments about cultural tourism and local tourism projects.

Does he have any plans to develop local, community-based tourism projects such as Coiste, which is a republican ex-prisoner group in west Belfast? Such projects attract large numbers of visitors each year.

Nigel Dodds (DUP, Belfast North)

I refer the Member to my earlier comments about cultural tourism. It is important that the tourism product contains a mix of projects. I cannot respond in the House today about the particular project that the Member has mentioned. However, now that it has been drawn to my attention, I will look at what the project entails. It is vital that both visitors and local residents are comfortable with tourism projects, and their product, because local people who go on day trips generate a great deal of our tourism spend. Any allocation of funds to projects that receive public money to support them must be done in a fair, neutral, impartial and balanced way.

Tom Buchanan (DUP, West Tyrone)

The Minister has touched briefly on my question. Is he satisfied with the profile given to the Walled City signature project in Londonderry? Does he agree that the project has tremendous potential, particularly as we approach the four-hundredth anniversary of the plantation of Ulster?

Nigel Dodds (DUP, Belfast North)

The Walled City signature project has enormous potential. I was recently in Londonderry, where I visited some elements of the project, the progress on which was very encouraging.

The Member mentioned the four-hundredth anniversary of the plantation of Ulster. In a recent discussion with a delegation from the local council and the Dean of Londonderry, I had the opportunity to talk about the anniversary. How that event should be marked is being planned. It is an important anniversary, which includes a number of significant events, and the Northern Ireland Tourist Board and local stakeholders in Londonderry will want to mark it. For visitors to Northern Ireland who seek cultural tourism and attractions that are linked to our history, the plantation of Ulster rates as one of the more significant events.

Jimmy Spratt (DUP, Belfast South)

Is the Minister satisfied that the amounts allocated to the Northern Ireland Tourist Board and Tourism Ireland in the draft Budget will ensure that targets are met?

Nigel Dodds (DUP, Belfast North)

The Member raises an important matter. In the draft Programme for Government and the comprehensive spending review, we have put our money where our mouth is. Under direct rule, there was a great deal of talk about boosting tourism and the economy, but the resources, emphasis and centrality required to do that were not recognised. That is the difference between the draft Programme for Government and the comprehensive spending review and what went before.

Significant additions have been made to the resources and capital given to the Northern Ireland Tourist Board. Tourism Ireland’s resource allocations have also increased significantly. There is a long way yet to go, however. I could argue a strong case in the House for even more resources to be provided, but I will instead continue to argue that case in an appropriate manner, because I recognise that a balance must be struck on all expenditure issues. The Minister of Finance and Personnel, who is at my side and will have heard what I said, recognises, as do my colleagues, the importance of the economy, and the importance of tourism to the economy. I am confident that the challenging targets that have been set will be achieved. The increased resources, and the drive behind those resources, will ensure that we achieve the value for money and delivery that will produce the necessary results.

Cathal Boylan (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. I declare an interest as a member of Armagh City and District Council. Being from one of the beautiful parts of the North — Armagh City, the ecclesiastical capital — I am aware that we have the cardinal coming on Thursday and that the area has huge tourism potential. How does the Minister intend to enhance that potential?

Nigel Dodds (DUP, Belfast North)

I am sure that the First Minister, who is present, will endorse the Member’s comments about Armagh, as it is his birthplace.

The Member will be aware that the St Patrick/Christian Heritage signature project, which is one of the five signature projects for Northern Ireland, is primarily based in the urban centres of Armagh and Downpatrick, although, obviously, it has a resonance for all of Northern Ireland and wider afield. That project is extremely important, and the draft Budget is providing £3·5 million to take it forward. A revised action plan will be produced to: develop key sites along the trail of places associated with St Patrick; engage with the private sector, and extend the product across Northern Ireland and into the Irish Republic. The signposted St Patrick’s Trail route will be ready for summer 2008.

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

That ends questions on the ministerial statement.

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

I have received notice from the Minister of Finance and Personnel that he wishes to make a statement regarding the review of domestic rating reform.

Peter Robinson (DUP, Belfast East)

I have just been made aware that there is a difficulty in that, apparently, copies of my statement are not outside the Chamber for Members. I do not know if that will make any difference to proceedings. My statement is long, and I do not print, copy and distribute it myself, but I think Members would like to have it in their hands.

Declan O'Loan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, North Antrim)

On a point of order. It would be very difficult for Members to address themselves to the statement and ask questions without having a copy. I would like a decision on that, Mr Speaker.

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

It might be useful if the Minister could clarify when the statement will be available to Members.

Peter Robinson (DUP, Belfast East)

I have an empty box at the moment for some reason, so I am unable to give you a response.

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

Will the Minister continue?

Peter Robinson (DUP, Belfast East)

I will speak slowly to allow the Department to catch up with me.

I am making an announcement today about the outcome of the Executive’s review of the domestic rating system that was introduced in April under direct rule and fulfils the commitment I made to the Assembly in June when publishing the terms of reference for the review. Today’s announcement, taken together with other recent announcements on the draft Budget, will further demonstrate our commitment to making a real difference for householders in Northern Ireland.

We must remember that what really matters to people is the level of rates that they have to pay, so any changes that we make need to have that proviso. Annual rate increases must be kept to a minimum, otherwise the whole system becomes discredited.

I set about the task even before taking office by ensuring, along with others, that the link with the reinvestment and reform initiative (RRI) was broken in advance of restoration. That link was ill conceived and simply created the conditions in which there was no incentive to save money, and higher rates became an end in itself. Let us not forget that the regional rate went up by 62% over the past five years under the previous Administration.

My recent announcement on the draft Budget to freeze the domestic regional rate over the comprehensive spending review period confirms my intentions in that regard. That regional rates freeze, and this further package of reliefs, are in addition to the commitment that we have given that householders will see the benefit of the contribution they already make to the cost of water through their rates — an average of £160 per rates bill. Against that background I present these proposals to the Assembly today.

It is only 195 days since I commissioned the review. In that short time we have covered a lot of ground, generated much debate and consulted broadly; ultimately, we have had to make difficult choices.

I am confident that the package of proposals that I intend to announce today is a balanced one that will lead to a more acceptable system and a better distribution of the rating burden among householders in Northern Ireland. However, I cannot pretend that it has been an easy task, particularly given the timetable to which we were working — a timetable driven by the desire to make changes in time for next year’s bills. No one expected that it would be straightforward, as will be found with any review that seeks to satisfy competing interests.

In addition, the process has confirmed that we have to be realistic and recognise that if we had been starting from square one, things might have been very different. Radical change now will only lead to a different set of winners and losers. Although I would be the first to recognise the limitations of any property tax system, I believe that, with the right checks and balances, the current system, based on capital values, can be made much fairer. Getting the right checks and balances is, therefore, what I have focused on, and is what I believe we have achieved through the package of proposals that I am presenting to the Assembly today.

Before I outline the proposals, I record my gratitude to the 119 individuals and organisations that responded during the 12-week consultation period that ended on 31 August 2007. Their informative and considered responses have undoubtedly helped to shape the outcomes of the review, and I have made it my business to ensure that the key messages conveyed through the process have been addressed.

The Committee for Finance and Personnel also made a massive contribution to the process. Its thorough and efficient approach was critical to the review timetable remaining on track, and I am particularly grateful to the Chairman and members for giving me advance sight of their report for that purpose. I am even more pleased to report that the Committee’s contribution can be clearly seen in the outcome of the review, with many of our recommendations aligning.

I will turn now to the proposals. Members will recall from my earlier statements that the review was to be taken forward in two strands in line with the terms of reference. Strand one involved a thorough examination of the options for change that could be delivered within the scope of the existing primary legislation in time for next year’s rates bills. Under that strand we also looked at ways in which that legislation could be changed to further improve the system in the medium term.

Strand two concentrated on longer-term options for raising revenue through local taxation, either as alternatives or supplements to the domestic rating system. That approach has led to the preparation of a number of proposals, which are presented to the Assembly as a cohesive package. In my view, they complement one another well, providing the right balance between protecting those most affected by the previous reforms and those most in need, namely our pensioners, and also attending to wider policy objectives.

In summary, the package includes proposals for a 20% single-pensioner discount for ratepayers aged 70 and over and living alone; an increase in savings thresholds from £16,000 to £50,000 for pensioners under the existing lower-income relief scheme; measures to improve the take-up of relief; the introduction of a deferment scheme as a choice for pensioners who own their own homes; a reduction in the maximum capital value; the rating of empty homes; rebates to encourage the provision of energy-efficiency measures for homes in Northern Ireland; and further evaluation and consultation on student rate relief and possible alternatives, with a view to abolishing it. Lastly, there will be further work on the option of introducing a derelict-land tax in Northern Ireland.

The key changes for next year will be the introduction of a single-pensioner discount set at 20% for ratepayers aged 70 and over and living alone, and the proposed increase in the savings limit applied under the low-income rate-relief scheme from £16,000 to £50,000 for pensioners. Those are targeted measures, and I believe that they will have an immediate and positive impact for a relatively modest cost. That cost will be borne by the regional rate, rather than by other ratepayers. Both can also be provided for through subordinate legislation, subject, of course, to the approval of the Assembly.

The increase in the current savings limit is to ensure that pensioners who have saved for their retirement do not find themselves ineligible for rate relief. It is in line with the first-step recommendations of the Lyons Report, and also reflects the considerable support for such a change during the consultation process. The measure is also supported by the Committee for Finance and Personnel.

In addition to that and the extra reliefs for pensioners that were secured during the St Andrews negotiations, I want to address the difficulties facing single pensioners — in particular, those which are a result of the reforms that were introduced under direct rule. The responses that were received during the consultation — many of which were from single pensioners — seem to support that.

Analysis that has been undertaken with the help of experts from the Department for Social Development (DSD) has highlighted as a major shortcoming the low take-up of existing reliefs among that group. That is why I am also proposing the introduction of a lone-pensioner discount from April 2008 for those who are over 70 years of age. However, I am not in favour of extending that discount to all single householders. Such a widespread discount would be difficult to justify on grounds of cost, need and vulnerability to fraud.

Last week there was much talk in the media about a single-person discount, and claims that, by not harmonising with arrangements that apply under the council-tax system in Great Britain, Northern Ireland is being unfairly treated. It is important that people fully understand that a discount given to any group — whether deserving or not — must, in the long run, be paid for through other ratepayers’ paying more. The cost of a discount for single-person households would be of the order of magnitude of £30 million a year. It is difficult to argue that single-person households represent a vulnerable group that requires such a level of support. Indeed, I pose the question of whether it would be right for young families struggling with large mortgages to be required to pay a supplement in order to pay for people who are affluent but living alone.

I have two further points about the proposal for a single-pensioner discount. In its report, the Committee for Finance and Personnel supported the introduction of such a discount for people over 75 years of age. However, on the basis that it would have a much greater impact, particularly in assisting with the major issue of take-up levels, my view is that the age threshold should be 70. I will continue to review whether even lower age thresholds might be justified in the future.

Currently, the evidence shows that people who have recently retired from employment are in a better position to pay their rates bill and to avail of rate rebates or low-income relief. According to the family resources survey, the average weekly income of recently-retired single pensioners is 30% higher than that of single pensioners as a whole. That survey also shows that the average income of single female pensioners — who make up the vast majority of single pensioners — aged 70 to 74 is approximately 28% lower than for those aged 60 to 64, and 15% lower than for those aged 75 to 79.

I propose that the discount level be set at 20%. That, in conjunction with the other proposed support measures such as the increased savings limit, will provide an adequate level of support. The discount will be applied after other reliefs — including transitional relief — have been awarded, in order that the target group will effectively get, and clearly see, the benefit of a 20% reduction in their bills.

Before moving on to the proposals for April 2009 and beyond, I will deal with the important issue of the low take-up levels of reliefs in Northern Ireland. As the report of the Lyons Inquiry into local government in England shows, that issue is not unique to Northern Ireland. However, urgent action is clearly required here, particularly in the owner-occupied sector, where the take-up rate for those who are eligible for the new lower-income rate-relief scheme is estimated to be 42%. As I said, pensioners, in particular, are not taking up that relief. A review of good practice in benefit take-up levels elsewhere has highlighted a number of broad actions that might be taken in order to improve rates-relief take-up levels in Northern Ireland. The Committee has recommended that those actions should be vigorously pursued. In light of that, and as a matter of urgency, I propose to commission a study, led by the voluntary and community sector, to identify actions that might be taken to support Government awareness and take-up strategies next year.

The possibility of new legislation giving increased data-sharing powers to relevant agencies will also be examined as a matter of urgency.

That will be subject to the completion of a privacy impact assessment to protect the interests of our citizens and to ensure that the data is safeguarded.

As well as the proposals for next year, I am pleased to present several further proposals to the Assembly that will take slightly longer to implement but will provide further checks and balances to ensure that the overall system is as fair as possible.

Staying on the theme of pensioners, the first proposal is for the introduction of a voluntary deferment scheme for homeowning pensioners. Essentially, it will involve rolling up rate payments at a concessionary rate of interest until the sale of the house and then securing the debt by creating a charge on the property. Such schemes are not uncommon in other jurisdictions. Although take-up is usually very low because of inheritance considerations, such a scheme can suit better-off pensioners who are beyond the income limits of the lower income relief scheme.

Such a scheme would require subordinate legislation to be passed, which could be achieved by April 2008, subject to the Assembly’s approval. However, complex administrative arrangements must be developed before it could be fully implemented, and further consultation on the detailed mechanisms would be desirable. Therefore, April 2009 has been set as the earliest date for the introduction of a deferment scheme.

Looking more widely, another successful outcome of the St Andrews negotiations last year was the introduction of a maximum cap set on properties with a capital value of £500,000 or more. It is clear that that move has helped to allay some of the public’s fear about the excessive impact of the new system. However, is the cap set at the right level? My view is that it is not, and I am attracted to the idea of setting it at the lower level of £400,000. Although the number of households that would directly benefit from such a move would be fairly low — about 5,000 in total — it would bring the highest bills under the rating system here into line with the average bills in the highest band of the council-tax system. That is a fairer comparator than the absolute highest council-tax bill, which provided the rationale behind the initial cap level.

I shall consult further on the issue, as I am keen to take account of developments on water charging and, in particular, what cap, if any, will be proposed there. Bearing that in mind, I propose to reduce the cap in April 2009, with final confirmation of its level to be made following consultation.

So far, I have dealt with some of the necessary checks that the rating system must have if it is to be fair, but what about the balances?

A popular measure during the consultation exercise, and with the Committee for Finance and Personnel, was the rating of vacant domestic property — not least because of the potential net revenue gain it could yield. Taking account of exemptions, and assuming that the DFP agency responsible for rate collection — Land and Property Services —— is fully equipped and resourced to implement the policy, the revenue gain could be in the region of £15 million to £20 million per annum.

However, the policy is more than a device for raising revenue; it could assist with wider policy objectives, such as housing affordability. That was the subject of the recent Semple Report, which is being taken forward by the Department for Social Development. Given its clear benefits, I propose to introduce the rating of vacant domestic property at a rate of 100% at the earliest possible opportunity, which will most likely be April 2009.

That date will give us time to consider the outcomes of the work being undertaken by the University of Ulster, the Northern Ireland Housing Executive (NIHE) and the Department for Social Development’s working group on housing affordability. It will also allow us to further assess and consult on the issue before taking decisions on items such as exemptions or exempt periods that might need to be applied.

The review of domestic rating reform also looked at the longer term and considered options as alternatives or supplements to the current rating system. One option that should be carefully considered is the taxing of derelict or vacant land. That would be a complementary measure to the taxing of vacant houses. The idea proved popular during the consultation exercise, and the Committee for Finance and Personnel has recommended that it be given serious consideration.

Although the measure could bring in much-needed additional revenue to help fund public services, it could also help to satisfy other wider policy considerations, such as ensuring that there is sufficient supply of development land available. Thus it would assist two policy aims: that of providing affordable housing and that of stimulating economic growth.

In announcing our intention to examine that in greater detail, I emphasise that today is merely a first step. We need to consider carefully the positive and negative effects that such a taxation measure could have. A delicate balance has to be drawn to ensure that it frees up land for development by providing a disincentive to holding it back, but at the same time does not cause such an imposition on developers that it affects the viability of urban development.

Before we can make any decisions about including the measure in legislation, we will have to examine the matter in greater detail and consult with those likely to be affected by such a measure. Therefore, in proceeding with the proposal, I will be working closely with other Departments, particularly the Department for Social Development and, given its role in planning, the Department of the Environment. Depending on the outcome of those considerations, the introduction of a tax on derelict land may simply be an extension of the existing non-domestic rating system, or it may be a new local tax, in which case, it may require changes to the Northern Ireland Act 1998.

Some of the responses to the consultation considered that local taxation should be used in a positive way by serving as an incentive to act in a more environmentally responsible manner. That aligns with my Department’s wider commitment to promote sustainable development. Therefore, I wholeheartedly support that aspiration, provided, of course, that it can be delivered in a cost-effective way.

Having considered the matter in light of the consultation responses and the Committee’s report, I intend to proceed with the option of providing rate rebates that offer the potential to improve the energy efficiency of our housing stock. I am proposing two measures.

First, I want to provide a rate rebate to existing homes that make energy-efficiency improvements, such as cavity-wall and loft insulation. Similar schemes already operate in some local authorities in England, part-funded by schemes set up and supported by the energy generators there. That proposal was submitted during the consultation by the World Wide Fund for Nature, and my officials, along with DETI and other stakeholders, are examining it in some detail.

Secondly, I am proposing an initial rate exemption for the first purchase of new homes that are zero-carbon-rated. However, there are some issues of definition, funding and alignment with other initiatives that have to be worked through regarding those matters. Therefore, I intend to ask my Department, working with the Committee for Finance and Personnel, other Departments such as DETI, and stakeholders such as NIE, to draw up detailed proposals with a view to introducing new primary legislation to be implemented in April 2009.

The review also critically examined some of the new relief schemes that were introduced in April this year. One of those was the rate-relief scheme for people in full-time education and training. That scheme attracted much criticism during the consultation process. Many of the respondents thought that the benefit of the relief was going into the pockets of landlords rather than students. Others questioned the effectiveness of the relief, and a number questioned whether that particular group should be a priority for the provision of rate relief.

The review also considered the number of applications that have been received so far this year for that relief, which is fewer than 500. That, in itself, draws into question the effectiveness of the policy. Therefore, I am minded to revoke the scheme, providing we can reasonably protect those who have already applied. However, before doing so, an evaluation of the policy and consultation with key stakeholders on the outcome of that evaluation are necessary.

So far, I have described what I want to do, provided I get the consent of the Assembly. I will now outline some of the longer-term options that I propose not to pursue, including banding. Although the system of individual capital values has the merit of being easier to understand than banding, I can see advantages to Northern Ireland’s having a system such as the council tax. It is restrained in that those at the top end pay no more than three times as much as those at the bottom end. That makes it more like a charge for services than the rates.

Notwithstanding the increasing sensitivities regarding council tax in GB — which I believe has more to do with overloading the system — we could design our own version. However, I recognise that we are not starting from square one. Another fundamental change in the way that local revenues are distributed among householders in Northern Ireland would not only cause more confusion and upheaval, but create a new set of winners and losers.

Winners tend to stay quiet; losers do the opposite. The political consequences of changing the order of things again should not be underestimated. That in itself is not a reason to show a faint heart — those who know me cannot accuse me of that. However, I cannot ignore the fact that no significant support for banding emerged from the consultation exercise, witnesses to the Committee for Finance and Personnel, or Committee members themselves. I will not, therefore, take that option forward, but I have agreed to provide the Committee with an update of the analysis of banding that was undertaken when direct rule Ministers decided to proceed with individual capital values.

Another major matter that I propose not to take forward is that of a local income tax. That was favoured by many ratepayers who responded to the consultation, although the majority of organisations were against it. It has attractions, in that it offers the prospect of aligning liability more closely with ability to pay. The public perception is understandable, therefore, and it mirrors — and is mirrored — in England, where, during the Lyons Review, the overwhelming majority of those who were surveyed thought that they would be much better off if subject to a local income tax, rather than the existing council tax.

However, the reality is somewhat different. It is estimated that a local income tax would cost income-tax payers in Northern Ireland a further 7p in the pound, if we were to raise the same amount of money as is accrued through domestic rates. That is also a tax on work, and therefore it is not in keeping with the Executive’s priority of economic growth. There are serious concerns about the ability and willingness of HM Revenue and Customs to support the introduction and administration of such a scheme.

That said, I do not think that we must close the door on it entirely: we can learn lessons from elsewhere, and particularly from Scotland. The Scottish Government have recently decided to abolish council tax and replace it with a local income tax. I understand that that is to be the subject of a public consultation in the coming months. As Scotland proceeds at pace with a local income tax, it is my view, shared by the Committee for Finance and Personnel, that it may be best to maintain a watching brief on developments there for the time being, rather than commission further work of our own on that matter.

Another issue that was examined during the review was that of circuit-breakers, which is the curious title given to relief schemes found in some parts of North America, whereby a limit is placed on the percentage of income that defined groups — pensioners, or ex-service personnel, etc — are required to pay in property tax. At first sight, that seems an attractive option. However, several factors effectively rule it out as a realistic option for consideration in the Northern Ireland context. Research shows that, where circuit-breakers exist, there tends not to be the safety nets of other reliefs for the poorest households, such as those that exist in Northern Ireland through the UK-funded housing benefit system.

Introducing circuit-breakers here would, therefore, cause major complications in working alongside housing benefit and, potentially, could shift the funding of the support of vulnerable groups from annually managed expenditure to the departmental expenditure limit. Introducing a circuit-breaker system would also be administratively complex, given the need to gather detailed information on the income of all ratepaying households. It will also be vulnerable to fraud. I, therefore, propose not to pursue that option further.

I shall now say more about the developments, on which I touched earlier, in respect of water charges. On 15 May 2007, I told the Assembly that I agreed with the Chairperson of the Committee for Finance and Personnel that it is important that rating reform be viewed in the context of how the Executive intend to address the funding of water in Northern Ireland.

Since then, the Independent Water Review Panel has published its first report. The panel recommended that a single bill be issued to households, with rates and water charges separately identified. The Executive have agreed that that proposal should be examined by both the Department for Regional Development and the Department of Finance and Personnel, working together to determine whether and how that might be done. That is now happening. At this stage, there are no conclusions to report to the Assembly.

However, I am anxious that the rating reforms that I have announced today are not jeopardised either by the substantial work on IT systems or possible legislative changes that may be required to provide a single bill for water and rates. Many difficult issues must be addressed, not least the fact that the panel is still working on recommendations for a new affordability tariff scheme, the outcome of which could have a major bearing on the ease with which a single bill can be delivered.

As I said earlier, I have signalled that people will not be asked to pay twice for water and that there will be an off-setting arrangement with the domestic rates; work on that is proceeding. I will provide the Assembly with further information on that proposal as soon as possible, after the Minister for Regional Development and I report to the ministerial subgroup and the Executive in the new year.

Next steps include the publication of a paper later this week that will set out the findings of the rating review in detail, including the options considered and those that were not recommended. Some immediate actions must be progressed over the coming months in order to implement the proposals: first, in order to advance the recommendations on single-pensioner discount, I will need to engage in a targeted consultation exercise that takes on board the views of all interested parties before introducing subordinate legislation for April 2008. At the same time, I will progress subordinate legislation to raise the savings limit for pensioners to £50,000 from April 2008. After that, I will begin work on pre-legislative tasks such as the integrated impact assessments and the consultation that is required to introduce the proposals for the rating of vacant domestic property, the proposed deferment scheme for pensioners, an agreed revision to the maximum capital value, and any legislation that is required on rate relief for those in full-time education and training.

At the same time, I will engage in preparatory work associated with the primary legislation required to intro­duce the new rate rebate for energy efficiency and zero carbon housing. Work will also be required on the legislative implications of the longer-term changes such as derelict land taxation and improved data sharing to facilitate relief take-up. That will require considerable research and discussion with some of my ministerial colleagues.

I have outlined cohesive measures to improve the rating system in Northern Ireland to help those most adversely affected or most in need and also to assist in fulfilling broader policy aims.

I have learnt through the review that reform of the rating system does not operate in isolation. Every new concession has a cost, either to other ratepayers or to the public purse. This is devolved taxation, and shortfalls are not made up from Government subventions. We must, therefore, adopt a measured and proportionate approach to changing the system through targeting support where it is required.

I shall, therefore, keep those measures under review. Raising more money from rating empty homes and derelict land could allow us to enhance some reliefs further; for instance extending the scope of the single-pensioner discount.

No matter what we do, reform cannot possibly satisfy everyone, and we should not try to do that by over-engineering the system — that could have unforeseen consequences.

It should be remembered that the rating system’s influence can be wide in other important policy areas such housing affordability, sustainable development and water reform.

As I said at the outset, what really matters is what people are asked to pay. Today’s proposals will benefit many ratepayers and, taken together with the Budget proposals, will offer many households much needed relief.

Much remains to be done to see the process through to its conclusion, but in making the changes, we are returning the faith that people demonstrated by sending us here. I commend the measures to the Assembly.

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

Before I call the Chairperson of the Committee for Finance and Personnel, I remind Members of the nature of the statement: Members must question the Minister on the statement, not make further statements.

Mitchel McLaughlin (Sinn Féin, South Antrim)

That sounded very pointed, a Cheann Comhairle.

I welcome the initial tranche of domestic rating reforms that the Minister has announced and the fact that so many of them align closely with many of the Committee’s recommendation. I agree that the reforms improve the domestic rating system. A good beginning is half the work, as the Irish saying goes.

Will the Minister clarify how the single-pensioner discount of 20% for over-70s will work in practice? Will it apply, for example, in a situation where two unmarried members of the same family live in the same household? Will the Minister state whether he is prepared to consider widening the scope of the discount? Will the Minister outline what the revenue outcomes are likely to be as a result of the reforms that have been announced today?

Peter Robinson (DUP, Belfast East)

I thank the Chairman of the Committee for Finance and Personnel for the assistance that his Committee gave to me and my Department during the Budget process. I have said, in my statement, that it is important that — in many ways — the reliefs can pay for themselves. The steps that we have taken, in looking at issues such as the rating of vacant properties and derelict land, will release further funds and will, therefore, allow us to consider further reliefs.

I was attracted to a lower level of assistance for senior citizens. If, and when, we can afford to do so, I will return to that issue. I have spoken to the Committee’s Chairman about that matter. At the present time, we are concerned with those aged 70 years and over who live alone. We will consult on that issue. There are some occasions when, for example, there is a medical requirement that a carer should live with someone. Should a person’s bad health disqualify them from having that benefit? Therefore, we will look at particular cases during the consultation process, and I am happy to work with the Committee in resolving those matters.

Effectively, the reliefs will not be a charge on other ratepayers — it is important that we make that point at this stage. If we can release further resources by increasing the rate income, we will return to the relief levels and age groups.

Roy Beggs (UUP, East Antrim)

I welcome several aspects of the Minister’s statement, in particular, his decision to introduce a tax on vacant properties. The Ulster Unionist Party is a prudent party that encourages positive forms of taxation. Although I welcome the single-pensioner discount, I note that it is limited to single pensioners and those aged 70 and over. Will the Minister explain why he has not taken up the suggestion, made by the Committee for Finance and Personnel, to introduce a universal pension for all those who are aged 75 and over?

Peter Robinson (DUP, Belfast East)

The Member, who is on the Com­mittee for Finance and Personnel, should take another look at that Committee’s report. The Finance and Personnel Committee proposed a discount for those who are aged 75 and over and who live alone. I have gone a step further by reducing the eligibility age for the single-pensioner discount to 70. I shall look again at the issue to see whether we can do something more in rate relief when we release further resources. My preference, particularly if I take into account the issue of take-up, is to have some form of automaticity about the process so that people are not required to apply for the relief. However, there will be a time lag on that. Therefore, for the first bills, payment will have to be by application.

Mervyn Storey (DUP, North Antrim)

I, too, thank the Minister for his statement and for the good practice that his Department has engaged in when dealing with the Committee on the review. The Committee looks forward to further work on potential long-term reforms.

The decision to increase the savings limit for pensioners, which applies under the existing lower-income rate-relief scheme, from £16,000 to £50,000 is in line with the Committee’s recommendation. Will the Minister comment on the extent to which that is likely to boost the uptake of reliefs? Moreover, will he comment on the measures that can be taken to ensure that Northern Ireland does not lose out by funding that uplift locally, were the UK Government to follow suit by raising savings levels as part of a wider reform of housing benefit?

Peter Robinson (DUP, Belfast East)

I did not bring my crystal ball with me, so my answer cannot be too exact. With regard to the latter point, we might reverse our decisions fairly quickly so that the burden would be on annually managed expenditure, rather than on the departmental expenditure limits.

There would be no need for us to carry that burden if the Treasury was going to carry it. We would re-examine the situation in those circumstances. The expectation is that the cost will be reasonably modest, but it can be calculated only after the system has been in use for a period of time.

Declan O'Loan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, North Antrim)

I congratulate the Minister on the review and on the timely fashion in which it has been presented. I accept the Minister’s contention that a property tax with checks and balances is probably as good as it gets at present. The broad thrust of the Minister’s proposals improves those checks and balances.

The proposed reduction of the rates cap would be revenue-neutral. Therefore, it would transfer the burden from relatively well-off households to relatively worse-off households. Does the Minister not accept that that would be a regressive policy? How does the Minister square his rejection of the circuit-breaker concept, given the affordability tariff on water? The strand 1 report of the independent water review panel led by Professor Paddy Hillyard has stated that proposals will be made on a water-charge affordability tariff in strand 2 of that review. If it is possible to proceed with that action on one hand, why does the Minister reject it on the other?

Peter Robinson (DUP, Belfast East)

The reduction of the rates cap will go out to consultation, and further work will be carried out to determine whether that would simply be regarded as lost revenue or reapplied within the rates burden. The Department will make some assessment for the Committee of the extent of any loss of rate revenue if that change were to be made.

There is a balance to be drawn on whether that is a tax, or a payment for a service. At some point, we must decide whether people have overpaid for that service. Rather than go to the highest band in GB, the Department’s position is that we should take the mid-point of the highest band in GB, which we believe is fair. That is why we are looking at a limit of £400,000. I will provide such statistics as I can to the Member’s Committee.

To some extent, Ministers cannot win. If there are ideas that Members like, they wonder why we do not press ahead with them, but when there is no support for those ideas in the consultation process, we are asked whether we should go ahead with them. Those are the issues that must be taken into account. Overall, I have produced what I believe to be a balanced set of proposals and measures. I hope that they are sufficient to attract the support of the Assembly.

Stephen Farry (Alliance, North Down)

I thank the Minister for his statement. There are many aspects to be welcomed, such as the single-pensioner discount, the rating of vacant property, and the energy-efficiency measures. However, does the Minister not recognise that a local income tax would be simpler than bringing an effectively property-based system with checks and balances more into line with the ability to pay through a complex system of reliefs?

What consideration did the Minister give to replacing only the regional rate with a local income tax, rather than both the regional rate and the district rate? Will the Minister give the House some idea of his wider approach to green taxes such as pay-as-you-throw schemes, reliefs for people who recycle, congestion charges, or road tolls?

Peter Robinson (DUP, Belfast East)

Whatever a change from the rating system to an income-tax-based system might be, it certainly would not be simpler. We all know of the upheaval that has been caused over the years by the change in the system. Any change, even if it is for the better, will have considerable consequences for the body politic. Everyone knows that, no matter what system we change to, we will simply create a new group of winners and a new group of losers.

The real difficulty with introducing a local income tax system is the fact that economic growth is the priority for Northern Ireland. A tax on work or, more accurately, a tax on workers is not the best way in which to encourage that growth. We have an opportunity to stand back, observe the Scottish model and learn lessons from it. If there are mistakes to be made, let the Scottish Government make them, and we will learn from their experience. We are not ruling out completely the idea of introducing a local income tax, but we can look and learn from the Scottish model over the next few years.

We have taken the right decision. It is better to remove the sharp edges from the existing system, make it fairer and address the issue of people’s ability to pay, rather than change the system and go into the unknown, as the Member for North Down would like us to do.

Peter Weir (DUP, North Down)

I thank the Minister for his thorough statement and for his measures to set the qualifying age for lone pensioner discount to 70, in particular. That will enable more pensioners to qualify than if the age had been set at 75.

First, does the Minister agree with the expert opinion given to the Committee that there are no examples in the world of circuit-breakers having been introduced effectively in a domestic rating situation? Secondly, will there be an initial exemption period for the introduction of rates for vacant domestic properties?

Peter Robinson (DUP, Belfast East)

There was a second element to the question from the Member for North Down Dr Farry. He raised issues about green taxes and whether there was scope for further reform. I am happy to discuss the matter with him and his colleagues to consider whether there is such scope. A consultation process will be carried out on the exercise, and we will attempt to make some progress on those issues.

My honourable friend Mr Weir asked whether I accepted the expert opinion on circuit-breakers. I am loath to go against expert opinion on anything, and I have reached a similar conclusion to the experts. Therefore, I am happy to accept their views.

There will be a consultation process, and that will allow us to consider the introduction of rates for vacant properties. There may be cases where some properties shall be exempt entirely, and I am sure that some people will want to put forward such proposals. There may be cases for exemption periods, such as the time between a property being vacated — the interregnum — and being sold or re-let. There are issues relating to blighted properties or ones that have been purchased for demolition that we must consider. Therefore, it is difficult to establish the exemptions that we will finally agree to. The Committee and the House will want to examine those issues during the consultation process.

Mickey Brady (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. I welcome the Minister’s statement, particularly with regard to pensioners. The Committee recommended that the availability of automatic rate relief to people of pensionable age should be given further consideration. What is the Minister’s thinking on that?

Peter Robinson (DUP, Belfast East)

It is an important issue. I agree entirely with the Member and with the Committee. However, it is difficult to consider the matter at this stage. I would like to involve Age Concern, Help the Aged and other organisations so that we can have evidence as to why there has not been a higher take-up in rate relief. During Question Time yesterday, I mentioned that the uptake had been approximately 40% for those in owner-occupied properties, between 60% and 70% for those in privately rented properties and over 90% for those in public-sector rented properties.

That shows that there is a need for considerable movement, particularly on the owner-occupied sector. If an automatic system can be established whereby people do not have to apply for rate relief, we will be able to improve the situation.

If we consider the sectors that are most affected by this matter, it is clear that, to some extent, there is a stigma attached to claiming rate relief. People do not want to apply for what they consider to be handouts; we must change the culture and make it clear that rate relief is an entitlement rather than a handout. I suspect that if those people went into a clothes shop in Belfast, they would be among the first to look for a 10% or 15% discount, and that they would have no difficulty with doing that. Indeed, they would feel that they were entitled to ask for such a discount, and, if it was offered, to take it. Rate relief should be no different; it is an entitlement not a handout, and people should apply for it.

Jim Shannon (DUP, Strangford)

I thank the Minister for his very detailed statement.

The Committee for Finance and Personnel examined the issue of enhanced discount for farmers, and it decided that the option would be considered in the context of decisions on other reforms. If a farmer has a property with an agricultural occupancy clause, it will be worth much less than similar properties, yet it seems unfair that the householder should have to pay rates to that effect. I understand from my discussions with estate agents that the value of such a property is probably 40% — perhaps even 50% — less than it should be.

In his statement, the Minister outlines proposals for vacant properties and the moneys that such proposals could raise. I think that it was suggested that £10 million could be raised by 2009. Will the Minister also consider reviewing the enhancement discount for farmers?

Peter Robinson (DUP, Belfast East)

I admire my colleague’s ability to put forward the case for the farming community at all times, and he is right to do so.

As I understand it, a benefit has been built in for the farming community, in that farms are reduced in valuation because they are farms, and in recognition of the fact that they can be sold only in a limited market. I am happy to consider whether there should be any distinction between farms per se and those agriculturally tied properties that, in many cases, were given planning permission only because of their farming connection and which cannot be used for any purpose other than for farming. I am always willing to consider and review matters, but, on this occasion, it was felt that the discount that has already been built in to the system for farmers was suitable and appropriate.

Leslie Cree (UUP, North Down)

I too thank the Minister for his timely statement.

Can the Minister provide an assurance that derelict land taxation will not be used to encourage “garden-grabbing” or to impose further taxation on the beleaguered farming community? Can he further assure the House that the proposed taxation will apply to developers who hold land banks and brownfield sites for future development so that such development can be encouraged?

Peter Robinson (DUP, Belfast East)

I assure the Member that I do not propose to tax his garden. The idea behind derelict land taxation is that it would particularly apply to sites that have been zoned for housing but which are being held back for commercial reasons and for profit. It would ensure that there is a flow of land into the property market, rather than encourage land-banking. It would therefore help the housing Minister to work towards her goal of ensuring that more affordable housing is made available.

Obviously, I am not talking about agricultural land. Let me kill off that idea just in case anyone should think that that is the route that is being taken — I do not want to be lynched by the farmers. The proposal will involve derelict land that has been identified for housing but which is not being used for that purpose.

Mark Durkan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

I thank the Minister for his statement. I appreciate that his focus has been on ensuring that change is deliverable next year and the year after, and I recognise too that some of the more radical options that have been suggested probably could not have been delivered in that time frame.

Will the Minister clarify whether circuit-breakers will be applied specifically to pensioner households — not just to single-pensioner households, but to couples as well? It has been argued that if circuit-breakers were applied more widely, they would be open to abuse. However, if one were focused on pensioner households, as was the intention under direct rule when there was a circuit-breaking affordability tariff in respect of water charges as recommended by the Consumer Council, would that not work?

Other areas of Government are, rightly, encouraging pensioners to take up pension credit, which is based on a minimum-income guarantee and is their entitlement. In such circumstances, could there not be a cross-reference in the rating system guaranteeing that pensioners will not have rating liabilities that will, in effect, bring them below the minimum-income guarantee for pension credit? That cross-linking could serve to encourage the take-up of pension credit as well as the take-up of rate relief measures.

Peter Robinson (DUP, Belfast East)

On the latter point, there is an awful lot that could be done if there were greater crossover of data in Government. However, that has other implications about which we must be satisfied. Some of the data relating to the rating system is held in places other than in my Department. Therefore, data sharing would be required. Those matters could not have been resolved in the short term. However, all changes can be considered: they can come at any time if they have merit.

As far as circuit-breakers are concerned, during the consultation process there was not the kind of support for pensioner households that the Member believes there was. However, that is not the only reason why it was discarded. The view held by officials is that it did not sit easily and could be disruptive to some of the benefit systems. The Department will do further work to determine whether there are ways around those difficulties and whether there are benefits in introducing some kind of circuit-breaking system.

Fra McCann (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

Like other Members, I welcome much of what the Minister has delivered to the House. However, will he expand his explanation of the benefits that the measures on vacant properties will have on the hard-pressed housing sector?

Peter Robinson (DUP, Belfast East)

A number of advantages will flow from those measures. Clearly, there will be the advantage of providing further rating income. As far as benefits to affordable housing are concerned, if people know that they cannot leave their houses empty in the hope that rent levels or sale values will increase, they will know that there is a cost attached. If they are leaving property vacant for financial reasons, there will be an encouragement, or incentive, for them to put their houses back on the market either for sale or to let. Essentially, the measures are a disincentive for people to leave property empty for profit and will allow a lot of property to come back on the market.

It is estimated that there is a large number of vacant properties in Northern Ireland: clearly, that must be dealt with. As property values have risen so extensively in recent years, there was a view that if people held off selling their houses, their properties would become more valuable. Therefore, they did not put those properties back on the market, and that has denied other people houses and has made properties less affordable.

The measures fit in with the policy objectives of the Department for Social Development and should assist, as a policy lever, to make more properties available on the market.

Simon Hamilton (DUP, Strangford)

I thank the Minister for his statement and welcome how much it mirrors the Committee for Finance and Personnel’s report on the review of domestic rating. In fact, in many instances, it enhances the report’s proposals.

I particularly welcome the increase in the savings limit. Does the Minister have any plans to abolish the savings threshold as proposed in the Lyons Report with regard to council tax?

Peter Robinson (DUP, Belfast East)

On the Member’s first point, I can only say that great minds think alike. We have reached the same destination and taken the same journey. [Laughter.]

I can hear what other Members think about that. The savings threshold has been increased from £16,000 to £50,000, which, in all circumstances, is reasonable. In respect of the removal of the threshold, the Lyons Report asked us to sit back and watch, and that is exactly what we shall do. We will look at how the £50,000 impacts on the householders and whether there is a cause for further revision and removal. I had considered increasing the savings threshold even further, and one of the big issues that will impact on that is increases in the property market, so we will regularly examine our threshold levels to ensure that they are kept in line with the property market.

Jennifer McCann (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. I thank the Minister for his statement. Considering that such a small percentage of people avail of rates relief, I am grateful that the Minister has commissioned a study, led by the voluntary and community sector, to promote awareness of the take-up strategies. Does the Minister have any plans to go further and finance and resource the voluntary and community sector so that the campaign is bedded in the community, thus making it more effective in its delivery?

Peter Robinson (DUP, Belfast East)

I want to hear what the voluntary and community sector has to say and what it believes will make a difference in take-up levels. If repre­sentatives of that sector have specific proposals that need to be funded, I will examine them. I am considering the pursuance of one possible reason for the low take-up — the amount of form filling that is involved. The form filling may appear complicated to some people, particularly senior citizens, and assistance may be required to complete the forms. Therefore, there may well be value in representatives from Help the Aged or Age Concern travelling around areas and offering advice and assistance on form filling. That is the type of area that I am prepared to examine if the voluntary and community sector confirms that the complication of form filling is one of the reasons for the poor take-up of reliefs. The introduction of some automaticity into the process so that people will not have to apply for some of those reliefs will also help.

Alex Easton (DUP, North Down)

I thank the Minister for his statement on what can only be good news for the people of Northern Ireland. Will the Minister state why he is proposing to reduce the level of the cap?

Peter Robinson (DUP, Belfast East)

I have already said that I chose the reduced level because it brings us into the average of the highest band in Great Britain, which is fair and, therefore, a fairly good comparator. That takes some of the pain out of the rate-paying process if a substantial part of the regional rate is regarded as being payment for services, but there must be some linkage with the services that people are receiving, and there must be an upper limit to that. If the GB level is on the top banding — set as it is — our circumstances are such that the midpoint of that top banding is the appropriate place to pitch, and that is why I pitched the cap at £400,000.

However, a consultation process is under way, and it would be advantageous to link our cap level to whatever limit is proposed for water charging — if possible. I hope that the Minister for Regional Development will consider the introduction of an upper limit for water charging and that we will be able to co-ordinate the two payments.

Billy Armstrong (UUP, Mid Ulster)

I welcome the Minister’s intentions to reward households that make energy-efficiency improvements. Will that reward apply equally to homes that have been modernised? What percentage of the initial rate will be rebated to owners of new homes that are zero-carbon rated?

Peter Robinson (DUP, Belfast East)

I have not set the percentage, or level, of the rate rebate, because my Department is first required to carry out a consultation process. I am happy to hear suggestions from Mr Armstrong — or any other Members — on where that level should be pitched. If I have understood him correctly, the Member asked whether the rebate would be retrospective for homes that already have such efficiency measures installed. That too is an issue for the consultation process. My view is that any homes with those efficiency measures should receive the full advantage of the rebate, irrespective of when they were installed.

Alastair Ross (DUP, East Antrim)

The Minister referred to rising house prices. Given the soaring prices across Northern Ireland in the past 18 months, with which everyone is familiar, will the Minister advise the House on what impact that will have on rate bills at the next revaluation?

Peter Robinson (DUP, Belfast East)

I could go on and on about that, because there is a misconception, if not a deliberate attempt by some members of the press to mislead the public, on that subject. If the price of everyone’s house were to rise by the same percentage, there would be no change in the quantum of their rate bills. A change only takes place when the value of someone’s property increases at a higher rate from that of others, in which case they will pay a higher amount of the overall total. The overall amount of revenue collected does not change; only the distribution within it. If someone’s property decreases in value relative to the overall average in Northern Ireland, their rate bill will decrease; if the value of their property goes up vis-à-vis the overall value of properties in Northern Ireland, their rate bill will go up. It is not the case that everyone’s rate bills will increase simply because of an increase in the overall value of property in Northern Ireland.

Anna Lo (Alliance, Belfast South)

Although some pensioners in my South Belfast constituency will benefit from the proposal, many others will continue to pay high rates because of the value of their property. Many pensioners argue that a rate bill still based on property value is unfair, whereas a local income tax would not penalise working people. They have worked all their lives and, on retirement, want to look forward to life without having to worry about high rate bills. What is the Minister’s view on that?

Peter Robinson (DUP, Belfast East)

Every pensioner who lives alone in South Belfast, and elsewhere in the Province, will benefit from the package that I have announced today. Indeed, the rise in the savings limit for pensioners from £16,000 to £50,000 will probably be of particular benefit to those living in South Belfast. Except where I expressly indicated otherwise in my statement, all existing reliefs remain in place. The reliefs that I have announced today are additional reliefs and, therefore, the package as a whole improves the position for everyone.

I cannot agree with the Member’s point about income tax. The Assembly’s priority is to achieve economic growth in Northern Ireland, and it would be a retrograde step to tax working people. It would be a considerable setback in our drive to stimulate the economy. However, the Scottish Executive intend to move in that direction, and I have indicated that my Department will watch their experience to see whether any lessons can be learned.

Tom Buchanan (DUP, West Tyrone)

Although the Minister touched on the answer to my question in his response to a previous one, the answer must be clarified for some Members of the House. The Minister will be aware that, in the past few weeks, a member of the SDLP who is also a member of the Finance and Personnel Committee has been scaremongering, saying that the Department was con­sidering the introduction of rating for agricultural land.

That led to real concerns in the rural communities that I represent. I am not sure whether that Member was misinformed or misled. For the benefit of Mr O’Loan, I ask the Minister to once more clarify the Department’s position. Is the rating of agricultural land under consideration?

Peter Robinson (DUP, Belfast East)

There is no question of the Department rating agricultural land.

Peter Robinson (DUP, Belfast East)

The Department has been clear about that matter and has released a public statement so that there is no doubt about the issue. The only reference to land in my statement is in respect of derelict areas. In response to Mr Cree’s question, I outlined the type of circumstances that will apply to derelict land, and I do not believe that any farmers would define agricultural land as derelict.

Jim Wells (DUP, South Down)

Most people would accept that the Minister has achieved a fine balance and a level of consensus on this matter. That will be broadly welcomed by the whole House. We particularly strongly support the incentives for energy-conservation measures, and the capital valuation limit of £400,000.

I particularly welcome the decision to rate vacant properties, but why is that measure not proposed to be introduced until April 2009?

Peter Robinson (DUP, Belfast East)

I set out some of those reasons in my statement. I am disappointed — I thought that the DUP’s green Member would have concentrated his question on green issues and on the incentives that I announced in my statement. However, he has decided to address another matter.

The timescale is simply a matter of administrative details that must be resolved so that the Department is capable of dealing with those matters. That also allows further time for consultation. It is an administrative matter, and it is proper that we get that right so that the Department is able to deal with these matters, rather than going ahead unprepared and having real difficulties in administering the system thereafter.

Brian Wilson (Green, North Down)

I too thank the Minister for his statement. I particularly welcome the rebates for zero-carbon housing and energy efficiency. I welcome the fact that there will be further consultation on other green taxes — that is important.

However, I was disappointed to hear that the main source of local taxation will remain property values, which are regressive and not based on ability to pay. In a motion that the House debated, I suggested that we consider a land-value tax, which would tax developers who are retaining land banks and would release more land for housing. Did the Minister consider a land-value tax, and what were his conclusions?

Peter Robinson (DUP, Belfast East)

I welcome the Member’s encouragement in respect of the matters on which I had expected him to ask questions. He did not let me down.

Jim Wells (DUP, South Down)

Unlike me. [Laughter.]

Peter Robinson (DUP, Belfast East)

I am a little confused about Mr Wilson’s latter remarks. If he does not consider that I have addressed the issue of land taxation in dealing with derelict land, he can only be suggesting that I should have included agricultural land. He had better have a conversation with the Member for North Antrim Mr O’Loan about that. My statement deals with the vacant land that needs to be dealt with, and we will do further work on that.

I would be happy to speak to the Member about green issues, if he wishes, over the period of the consultation.

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

A Cheann Comhairle. The Minister has stated how he intends to engage with the community sector in respect of rate relief. Will he also clarify how he intends to engage with those who, for their own — or for family — purposes, have had to make disability adaptations to their homes? Many people do not claim the rate relief that is available for that. Will the Minister outline how he intends to engage with that sector?

Peter Robinson (DUP, Belfast East)

By and large, when adaptations are carried out, there should be good records in the Depart­ment of Health, Social Services and Public Safety; the Housing Executive; or some other body. I will certainly look at that matter. There is recognition under the existing system that many adaptations increase the value of a property, and that people should not be punished on account of their disability. I am happy to consider finding a way to test the level of uptake from people in those circumstances and whether a special initiative is required to address that issue.

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

The Business Committee has arranged to meet today as soon as the House suspends for lunch. I propose, therefore, by leave of the Assembly, to suspend the sitting until 2.00 pm.

The sitting was suspended at 12.25 pm.

On resuming (Mr Deputy Speaker [Mr Dallat] in the Chair) —

Executive Committee Business

John Dallat (Social Democratic and Labour Party, East Londonderry)

The next item of business is the Executive Committee’s legislative consent motion relating to the Dormant Bank and Building Society Accounts Bill [HL].

Peter Robinson (DUP, Belfast East)

I beg to move

That this Assembly agrees that the provisions in the Dormant Bank and Building Society Accounts Bill relating to the distribution in Northern Ireland of sums released from dormant bank and building society accounts should be considered by the UK Parliament.

I have tabled the motion to seek the Assembly’s agreement to the inclusion of Northern Ireland in the provisions of a Westminster Bill that aims to release millions of pounds from inactive bank and building society accounts and reinvest them in local communities. Alongside that, the rights of customers to reclaim their money, at any time, will be preserved.

The scheme was first announced formally in the Chancellor’s 2005 pre-Budget report. Since then, discussions have taken place with the banking industry, followed by two UK-wide public consultations. That has culminated in the Dormant Bank and Building Society Accounts Bill [HL], which was introduced in the House of Lords on 7 November 2007.

Banking and financial services is a reserved matter, and therefore the Assembly could not legislate on this issue. However, in keeping with the spirit of devolution, provision has been made in the Bill for the three devolved Administrations to set the priorities for distribution in their respective jurisdictions.

As the Bill proposes to give the Department of Finance and Personnel new executive functions and the power to make an Order setting the spending priorities for distribution in Northern Ireland, the consent of the Assembly is required.

The Bill defines dormant accounts as those that have had no customer-initiated activity for a period of 15 years. It is anticipated that dormant accounts could initially amount to more than £500 million across the UK, with tens of millions of pounds recurring annually thereafter. Northern Ireland will benefit alongside the other UK Administrations, on a population basis. Initially, additional resources have been estimated at between £10 million and £20 million, with hundreds of thousands of pounds each year thereafter.

In preparation for the commencement of the scheme, financial institutions have already begun a comprehensive exercise to make every effort to reunite customers with their assets. Members may have already noticed advertisements in the local press to that effect. The assets identified in dormant accounts will be transferred by banks and building societies to a reclaim fund. That fund will be independent of the Government and the banking industry, and will be regulated by the Financial Services Authority.

It will be the duty of the reclaim fund to retain and invest a prudent portion of the assets in order to meet any future repayment claims from customers. That is a key point, and it will ensure that customers will be able to reclaim funds transferred to the scheme at any time. Assets not needed to meet the reclaim risk, or reasonable running costs, will be released for distribution.

In light of its UK-wide infrastructure, its experience in distribution and the efficiency benefits that that brings, the legislation names the Big Lottery Fund as the vehicle for distributing funds throughout the UK. I recognise the valid concerns that many in our community will have about that approach, and I have made strong representations to the Treasury on that basis. In response, the Treasury has assured me that all scheme resources represent a separate and distinct funding stream from lottery funding. Distinct branding will be used for all projects funded through the scheme. That approach will ensure that all projects funded from the scheme will have no links with the proceeds of gambling.

I emphasise that the funds will not form part of public spending. The only influence that the Executive will have on the scheme, following the passing of enabling legislation, will be in setting the local priorities for spend and in issuing directions to the distribution body.

As this money belongs to customers — albeit unclaimed by them — it sits within the banking sector. Therefore, it would not be appropriate for Government to seize it and spend it directly.

As for the priorities to benefit from these assets, the Bill provides a general definition of “social or environmental purposes” on which unclaimed assets may be spent. It is within that overarching theme that the Assembly will be able to set its own spending priorities in Northern Ireland, and those priorities will be reflected in the directions given to the Big Lottery Fund for distribution here.

If Members agree the legislative consent motion before them today, I will undertake a consultation in early 2008 on the Northern Ireland spending priorities. I will then bring proposals to the Executive and Assembly for agreement.

The dormant accounts scheme has the potential to deliver real benefits to communities across Northern Ireland by freeing up resources that are lying idle in dormant accounts and reinvesting them in needy communities. Should the Assembly give its consent to the Bill’s provisions, it will have an excellent opportunity to set the priorities for spending Northern Ireland’s share of the proceeds. The Executive approved the legislation at a meeting on 8 November, and I now invite Members to do the same.

Mervyn Storey (DUP, North Antrim)

As the Minister has already explained, the Dormant Bank and Building Society Accounts Bill [HL] is going through West­minster, and Northern Ireland in included in the legislation. The Bill deals with the reserved matter of financial services, and it is the Committee’s under­standing that, in the spirit of devolution, the UK Government decided to make provision in the Bill for the devolved Administrations to set spending priorities and to have some input into the distribution of moneys in their jurisdictions.

The Assembly’s consent is required in order for Northern Ireland to be included in the legislation, in so far as the Bill contains provisions that confer new executive functions on the Department of Finance and Personnel. As the Minister has explained, the Depart­ment will have the power to make Orders that identify the spending areas in which the Big Lottery Fund may distribute funds from the unclaimed assets of dormant bank and building society accounts that are apportioned to Northern Ireland.

The Committee for Finance and Personnel held two separate evidence sessions on the Bill with DFP officials, including the principal legal officer in the Departmental Solicitor’s Office. Those meetings were recorded by Hansard, and the Committee decided to publish the minutes of evidence on the Assembly website to ensure that the details of its deliberations were available to the wider body of MLAs and other stakeholders. The Department also provided Committee members with copies of the draft Bill.

During the first evidence session on 24 October, Committee members raised a range of issues. These included: the consequences should the Assembly not give its legislative consent; how the alternative scheme for smaller banks and building societies would operate; the risk of reclaim, and the process involved; ethical concerns over the use of the Big Lottery Fund as the distribution vehicle and as a barrier to applications for funding; measures to ensure that spend goes to worthwhile projects; and the reasons why dormant accounts could not be allocated directly to devolved Administrations for distribution.

The Committee raised those issues formally with the Department and received a substantive written reply. A further evidence session was held with DFP officials on 7 November, after which the Committee was content that the Department had adequately addressed its specific concerns.

On the key question of what the consequences would be were the Assembly not to give its legislative consent to the legislation, the Department advised the Committee that it was likely that the UK Government would still proceed with it as planned, given that financial services is a reserved matter. The Bill would be amended, removing the provisions that confer on DFP the functions of setting the Northern Ireland priorities for spend and giving directions to the Northern Ireland committee of the Big Lottery Fund.

Therefore, while the Welsh Assembly and the Scottish Parliament would have the power to set out particular spending areas for the money apportioned to them, the Northern Ireland Assembly would not. We would be missing an opportunity to influence the spending priorities for Northern Ireland and to give directions to the Big Lottery Fund. In addition, the voluntary and community sector in Northern Ireland would be unable to feed its views into the local consultation process.

In general terms, therefore, while the Committee has reservations about the Bill, including the bureaucracy associated with some of its provisions, Members agreed that a pragmatic approach is required so that Northern Ireland does not lose out significantly. Consequently, the Committee agreed unanimously on 7 November to support the Department of Finance and Personnel in seeking the Assembly’s endorsement of the principle of the extension of the provisions of the Dormant Bank and Building Society Accounts Bill to Northern Ireland. I support the motion.

Mitchel McLaughlin (Sinn Féin, South Antrim)

Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. The Deputy Chairperson of the Finance Committee has fully set out the Committee’s deliberations; I am speaking in a personal capacity as a member of Sinn Féin.

I support the motion. The Bill is a pragmatic response to the issue of funds that are lying dormant in the reserves of the banking institutions in this state. Its provisions will empower the application of those dormant funds to very important projects that the Executive and, indeed, this Assembly would wish to see addressed. The fact that these funds are benefiting no-one in any particular way is an issue that has been unaddressed for a considerable period of time. There is some comparative experience in the measures that have been adopted South of the border, and it has been seen that, particularly in regard to the social agenda, these funds can be applied where funding might not otherwise be available.

It is important to acknowledge the small number of financial institutions that trade solely in this state. They will have the power under this legislation, having taken the proper steps to identify the funding as being in dormant accounts to which there is no immediate claim, to apply it in the areas in which they trade. One or two examples of institutions that trade solely in particular locations have been made known in the background research. In Derry city, for example, where I live, there is one such institution. Funds that are released by this mechanism can and will be applied by that institution in its immediate location. Again, that is to the good.

All in all, the concerns that people have about the procedural difficulties can be legally proofed. We can revisit the arrangements if they prove to be inadequate. At this stage, no one can quantify the sums of money involved. They might be considerable, or they might not. However, the question will at least have been answered, and a mechanism devised by which they can be applied to the greater good, rather than lying dormant and obsolete. I strongly endorse the motion and commend it to the House.

Stephen Farry (Alliance, North Down)

I support the motion. This is an advantage to the public purse. Good can be done through these resources being made available. It also works for the banks by removing liabilities from their books. I have little to add to the comments of the last two Members, but I do have a couple of points.

First of all, this type of procedure is fairly common internationally. Mr McLaughlin referred to the experience of the Republic of Ireland, and there are many other international examples. This is not something new or sinister that is being put forward by the Government.

Secondly, one small concern is that resources are to be redistributed to the devolved regions of the UK on the basis of population, as opposed to need and — as we are all aware — resources from the block grant are allocated by need, rather than by population. Although I appreciate that the sums involved may be relatively small in comparison with our overall block grant, it is important that that point be made to the Treasury, and that we preserve a needs-based approach to financing. There may be some financial implications for Northern Ireland as a consequence of the change in approach to that formula.

A further important point is that the money in dormant accounts belongs to people. The account holder may, sadly, have passed away. Equally, however, the bank may not be able to contect them because they have changed address. It is important that the process for someone who wishes to reclaim his or her funds be as simple as possible, and no more complicated than withdrawing money from any account, albeit that the money will have been transferred to a central fund.

Those points notwithstanding, I support the motion.

Simon Hamilton (DUP, Strangford)

I support the motion, although I am not overly enamoured or enthusiastic about some of the principles underlying the Bill. Some of my Finance and Personnel Committee colleagues and I have expressed our unease at the idea of the Treasury emptying anyone’s bank or building society account. It seems that the of raiding bank accounts has taken a different tack to the one that Northern Ireland has until now, from time to time, experienced.

I appreciate that there is a reclaim fund and that, although the money may have been taken and spent, people can still get their money back. The principle that people’s money remains their own is important, regardless of whether activity was last initiated 15 years previously.

On balance, it is best that Northern Ireland be included in the provisions of the Bill as it progresses through its various stages at Westminster. It is important that Northern Ireland and the Executive have the opportunity to influence what types of social and environmental purposes are funded. We must set those priorities for ourselves and in our own interests, rather than have a direct-rule-style diktat to tell us what is best for us.

I wish to reiterate concerns that I have raised in Committee, and which have been expressed by the Minister, about the body that it is envisaged will distribute any funds that are raised. Members will be well aware of the genuine and deeply held concerns of many individuals, as well as of some Church and community organisations, about dealing with the Big Lottery Fund. I know that the purpose of the Big Lottery Fund is only to manage money; however, impressions are important.

I encourage the Minister to continue his discussions with the Treasury to ensure that the branding of the distribution fund is distinct, and that it is made clear that it is not lottery money, thus making it easier for those who are concerned about using the proceeds of gambling to apply for the money.

It is important to take a realistic, pragmatic approach. I ask the Minister, in his summation, to elaborate on the possible consequences for Northern Ireland if the legis­lative consent motion were not passed, and if we were not included in the provisions of the Westminster Bill.

Jennifer McCann (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. Like my colleague Mitchel McLaughlin, I support the motion, which provides a legal framework to allow assets from accounts that have lain dormant for at least 15 years to be distributed to community causes through the Big Lottery Fund.

Many bank and building society accounts lie dormant and unclaimed, often because the account holder has died, or because surviving relatives have expressed no claim. Several countries operate similar schemes whereby moneys from such accounts are reinvested in the community.

The Bill has already become law in England, Scotland and Wales, and there is similar legislation in the South of Ireland. Although social and environmental themes are the main priorities, individual regions can decide for themselves to what causes assets will be distributed. The Bill will allow for money in dormant accounts to be transferred to a reclaim fund. That means that any individual, or any individual’s relatives who are still living, can — should they wish to do so — make a claim from that fund for the return of that money.

An alternative scheme is available for smaller banks and building societies allowing them to transfer an agreed proportion of a dormant account into a reclaim fund and to distribute the remainder to charities that benefit the local community.

I want to reiterate Members’ concerns about certain aspects of the legislation, which I share. These moneys should be additional to lottery funding and should not affect lottery distribution. They must also be separate from departmental funding. A number of safeguards must be implemented so that an individual or a living relative can reclaim the moneys at any time and that banks do not simply wait for owners to come to them but are proactive in seeking the whereabouts of those owners.

In order for accounts’ assets to be distributed equally and fairly, and in a way that is accessible to all community and voluntary organisations, safeguards should be put in place so that local priorities can dictate where the money goes. It is important that the community and voluntary sector is involved in any consultation on how that distribution of assets is progressed.

As other Members have said, the moneys would be much better put to use in the community than lying dormant in bank accounts. Therefore, I support the motion. Go raibh maith agat.

Peter Weir (DUP, North Down)

Like other Members, I support the motion.

When this issue was first brought to the Committee for Finance and Personnel, other members and I had certain reservations, to which I will refer. However, those reservations have now been dealt with, thanks to the Department and the Minister’s assurances.

I found the concept of the Government’s raiding private individuals’ bank accounts somewhat distasteful; it seemed to be a typical Treasury wheeze to extract additional money. Nevertheless, there are counter-arguments that point to these measures being necessary. From a philosophical viewpoint, the legislation resembles a latter-day updated version of the parable of the talents, in which an owner who has buried, or neglected, money is punished by having that money used for the common good. Similarly, moneys realised via legislation governing dormant accounts will be distributed in a way that benefits good causes.

Had Northern Ireland decided to exempt itself from this legislation, it is clear that, in a best-case scenario, the resulting procedures might not have suited us. If the Assembly negatives the motion, the worst-case scenario would be that we run the risk of simply being excluded completely. The amounts of money that will flow into Northern Ireland will be relatively limited, but they will benefit us overall. Therefore, from a practical point of view, Northern Ireland must be included in the scheme.

I was concerned that the intention was to operate the scheme through the National Lottery in the rest of the United Kingdom. Therefore, I am glad that the Minister has assured Members that the scheme will be administered in Northern Ireland separately from the National Lottery. When the Minister makes his winding-up speech, it might be worthwhile if he would outline how the scheme would be administered here if Northern Ireland were to be excluded from the legislation, or if, for some reason, the Assembly were to negative the motion. Christian and charitable organisations have problems with National Lottery funding that would preclude them from benefiting from the dormant accounts scheme, so I would welcome the Minister’s assurances today that the scheme will be marketed and administered differently in Northern Ireland.

I had concerns about people being deprived of their hard-earned savings, albeit savings that had lain dormant for quite some time. Members have been assured that there will be a consolidated fund, so that if claims are made at any stage, they will be honoured and people will get their money back.

On the basis of those assurances, and from a practical viewpoint, Northern Ireland will benefit as a result of the measure. Therefore, I support the proposal.

Roy Beggs (UUP, East Antrim)

I support the motion. Dormant accounts are an interesting phenomenon, which many of us will never come across. Nevertheless, accounts can lie dormant in building societies for many years and for various reasons — perhaps when an individual dies his or her family may not be aware of additional accounts, or perhaps people have stashed unauthorised funds in accounts. If the accounts remain dormant for a significant period — that is, many years — the one group that benefits is the banks. Why should banks benefit from money in accounts of which the owners have passed on or cannot be identified? Therefore, I understand the reasoning behind the proposal in the motion.

It is important that there is sufficient protection for those who, at a late stage, are identified as account owners. I am content that there will be a totally independent fund, which will be able to secure payment in that case. The proposal makes sense; it is better that local people, instead of politicians in London, have an input in setting local priorities.

At the Committee, I raised the view that there should be a separation between this fund and any other funds in the Big Lottery, and that it should be identified as separate from gambling. Other Members supported that view, and I hope that that will help the Minister’s attempts to achieve that goal. I have come across many worthy groups in the community — such as the YMCA, which does good work, particularly with young people— that have been unable to apply for Big Lottery funding, which they would have been successful in obtaining, because of their beliefs. Any measure that increases the opportunity for such organisations to gain funding and improve their work in the community must be supported. I urge the Minister to ensure that — as far as possible — a separate fund exists, and that it is clearly identified as such. The many groups that have not felt able to apply for funding will then be able to do so in the future.

Declan O'Loan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, North Antrim)

I state my wholehearted support for the motion.

Peter Robinson (DUP, Belfast East)

I am pleased that Members have had a useful — albeit short — debate on the issue that the provisions in the Dormant Bank and Building Society Accounts Bill [HL] relating to Northern Ireland should be considered by the UK Parliament. A number of important points were raised and I will do my best to mention as many of them as possible.

I agree with the Chairperson of the Committee for Finance and Personnel, and his colleague, that the fund must be used in the community and must not be seen as a way for the Government to replace its funding. There were problems with additionality in Europe, and we will not go down that road. This is, genuinely, money to help our communities under the broad heading of social and environmental purposes. If the motion is passed, it will be up to the Executive to be more precise about the direction of the fund.

Several Members mentioned the ethical issues involved. When I was first contacted by HM Treasury on the matter, I wrote back and prompted a stream of correspondence on the issue. I was pleased that — when the Bill was in its final state of preparation — the Treasury made it clear in its response that unclaimed assets would be kept separate from lottery resources, with their own distinct branding and financial management arrangements.

HM Treasury saw that as a key principle.

Like many Members, I have faced circumstances in which communities were in great need but for ethical reasons I was not prepared to draw on lottery funds to ease that need. The dormant accounts scheme will allow those communities to benefit from our being able to give directions to the Big Lottery Fund, and I hope that many of them will do so. However, there will be no plaque on the wall to the Big Lottery Fund should people avail themselves of the scheme.

I was also asked about the consequences were the Assembly not to agree to the legislative consent motion. I do not get the impression from the Members to whom I have spoken that that will be the case, but, lest Members be teetering between decisions, I must inform them that the Treasury would still give the money to Northern Ireland, but it would be likely that the Big Lottery Fund would determine the funding priorities rather than their being set by the Executive and the Assembly. Therefore, those of us who want to see less of a role for the Big Lottery Fund will want to ensure that we proceed positively.

Dr Farry made a point about the risk of reclaim — he has gone. [Laughter.]

Peter Weir (DUP, North Down)

He is away to change his bank accounts.

Peter Robinson (DUP, Belfast East)

They will all have gone dormant.

As some of my colleagues did, he referred to the risk involved for those people who, for whatever reason, have dormant bank accounts. They might have changed address or might not have needed the money for 15 years. Those people will be able to go as normal to their bank, where a fund will have been set up to ensure that they do not lose their assets.

The issue of a population-based share as opposed to a needs-based share was also raised. The Scottish and Northern Ireland Executives and the Welsh Assembly Government all took the same view — that a different formula should be used. However, financial services is a reserved matter, and the Treasury has not accepted that view. Some of our colleagues in the House of Lords and the House of Commons may attempt to table an amendment to the Bill. Nevertheless, any amendment would be Barnett formula-based, missing out some of our community’s needs.

I say to my ever-sceptical friend, Mr Hamilton, that this is not a case of the Treasury’s emptying bank accounts; the Treasury will not be emptying anyone’s bank account. The banks will operate the dormant accounts scheme voluntarily, so the Treasury will not get its hands on the money at all. The scheme will be operated independently, and the only Government role will be that that the devolved Administrations and central Government play in setting the spending priorities that are to be given to the Big Lottery Fund to allow it to distribute the funds.

Those are the issues that were raised during the debate, and I hope that I have not left anything out. I thank Members for their constructive contributions. It has been an interesting debate that will inform the setting of the scheme’s spending priorities in Northern Ireland and the direction that will eventually be issued to the fund distributor.

The dormant accounts scheme provides the mechanism to remove dormant accounts from the balance sheets of banks and building societies, and to reinvest them back into our local communities. If the House gives its consent to the motion today, that will open the door to an excellent opportunity for the Assembly to set priorities for distribution and to ensure spend goes to worthwhile projects across Northern Ireland. If that consent is not given, it will be a missed opportunity to set the spending priorities for our jurisdiction. Therefore, I encourage Members to support the motion.

Question put and agreed to.

Resolved:

That this Assembly agrees that the provisions in the Dormant Bank and Building Society Accounts Bill relating to the distribution in Northern Ireland of sums released from dormant bank and building society accounts should be considered by the UK Parliament.

Committee Business

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

I beg to move

That this Assembly orders that any report by the Comptroller and Auditor General, which has been prepared under Article 8 of the Audit (NI) Order 1987 for presentation to the Northern Ireland Assembly in accordance with Article 11 of that Order, be printed and published under the authority of the Assembly.

Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle.

The motion addresses the issue of privilege of the Comptroller and Auditor General’s reports. Until devolution, all his publications were ordered to be published by the Westminster Parliament and were, therefore, privileged. That clearly represents good practice in public-sector audit, as it allows the Comptroller and Auditor General to give a full and complete report of his findings to the legislature.

To date, most of the main reports, which the Public Accounts Committee has taken evidence on and reported, have been fully covered by privilege, as they were published by order of the Westminster Parliament. It would have been difficult to bring several of those reports to the Committee without that status. Indeed, there are a number of Northern Ireland Audit Office reports that deal with potentially controversial issues, and it is important that those should be published with the authority of the Assembly.

In light of that, I am sure that Members will agree that it is important that we ensure that the arrange­ments for audit and accountability under the Assembly are at least as robust as those that existed under direct rule.

In due course, consideration will be given to reflecting the arrangement in Standing Orders or, if an opportunity arises, in legislation. However, until such times, this motion will provide the Comptroller and Auditor General with the necessary privilege — subject to the Assembly’s resolution today — to publish all future reports and, through that process, to ensure that we receive the quality of information from the auditors that is necessary to carry out our work.

I, therefore, commend the motion to the House.

Roy Beggs (UUP, East Antrim)

If the Comptroller and Auditor General and the Public Accounts Committee are to be able to carry out their work, this motion will be an essential part of the process. I support the motion.

John Dallat (Social Democratic and Labour Party, East Londonderry)

I apologise. I should have called Mr Robin Newton first.

Robin Newton (DUP, Belfast East)

As Chairperson of the Audit Committee, I support the motion. Members will understand that there has been some concern in the Audit Committee on the matter. The Committee discussed the issue in some detail at its meeting on 7 November 2007. The Committee is also of the opinion that absolute privilege is an essential requirement so that the Northern Ireland Audit Office can carry out its functions completely.

(Mr Speaker in the Chair)

Audit Committee members expressed their concern at the meeting on 7 November that the Comptroller and Auditor General does not have the same powers as his counterparts in Westminster and Wales. The Committee believes that it is fundamental to the practice of public audit that the Assembly’s auditor should be able to present all significant and relevant findings to the Assembly without the threat of legal challenge from third parties involved in the report issues.

It is also characteristic of good custom and practice that all facts are reported and are freely available to the legislature and the general public. This motion will permit the Assembly to order that the reports of the Northern Ireland Audit Office are printed and published, therefore extending absolute privilege to the Comptroller and Auditor General. I, therefore, commend the motion to the House.

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

I call Mr Trevor Lunn. I call Mr Simon Hamilton.

Simon Hamilton (DUP, Strangford)

That was the shortest speech on record — I hope that mine is not the longest.

I support the motion. The Public Accounts Committee is essential to the Assembly, if it is not always welcomed by those who come before it from time to time. The Committee has been extremely active in the past; and its work plan until the end of the year and for next year confirms that. The Committee is starting to set its own agenda and to look at its own issues, such as the situation in the Northern Ireland Events Company, which is currently in the news. The Committee will examine that matter in time, and it is essential that that good work is not hampered by loss of privilege.

Not having the ability to publish reports under the authority of the Assembly would seriously impede the work of the Comptroller and Auditor General and, by extension, the work of the Public Accounts Committee.

The Public Accounts Committee having that privilege rightly keeps the Assembly in line with its counterparts in England and Wales and, in the long term, I hope that such situations might be addressed by legislation or Standing Orders. However, in the interim, I fully support the motion as it stands.

Question put and agreed to.

Resolved:

That this Assembly orders that any report by the Comptroller and Auditor General, which has been prepared under Article (8) of the Audit (NI) Order 1987 for presentation to the Northern Ireland Assembly in accordance with Article 11 of that Order, be printed and published under the authority of the Assembly.

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

The Business Committee has agreed to allow up to four hours and 30 minutes for the debate. The proposer of the motion will have 15 minutes to propose and 20 minutes to make a winding-up speech. The Minister will have 45 minutes to respond, and all other Members who are called to speak will have 10 minutes.

I advise Members that although two amendments have been published on the Marshalled List, after taking advice, and taking account of practice elsewhere, and guidance in Erskine May, I have reconsidered and, at my request, the two amendments have been withdrawn under Standing Order 15(5). I am grateful to the Members concerned for their agreement to withdraw those amendments.

Moreover, my ruling is that, in future, I shall not select amendments to any take-note motion.

Mervyn Storey (DUP, North Antrim)

I welcome the debate because it provides Members with the opportunity — both as representatives of Statutory Committees, and individually — to set out what they perceive to be the significant budgetary issues that face each Depart­ment in relation to the maintenance, improvement and delivery of front line public services. The themes that emerge from the debate will be beneficial in informing the Committee’s forthcoming co-ordinated report on the draft Budget, which will, in turn, allow the Assembly to influence the Executive as they finalise the Budget.

On 25 October 2007, the Minister of Finance and Personnel presented the Executive’s first draft Budget. In his speech, the Finance Minister emphasised that the primary focus of the draft Budget is on economic growth, and that that clearly indicates the Executive’s long-term commitment to building a better future for the people of Northern Ireland. That focus aligns with the priorities that are identified in the Executive’s draft Programme for Government, which are to grow a dynamic, innovative economy; to promote tolerance, inclusion, health and well-being; to invest to build in infrastructure; to deliver modern, high-quality and efficient public services; and to protect and enhance our environment and natural resources.

In presenting the draft Budget, the Minister also highlighted increased public expectations of public services and the need not just to spend more, but to achieve value for money for every pound we spend. Therefore, the Budget period from 2008 to 2011 presents a challenge for the Executive — and, indeed, every Member of the Assembly — to prove that devolution can make a real difference to people’s lives.

We must recognise the context in which that challenge must be met. The outcome of the 2007 comprehensive spending review means that, in the UK, public expenditure is set to grow at the slowest rate since that mechanism was introduced in 1998. The Chancellor’s comprehensive spending review announcement indicated that the Northern Ireland departmental expenditure limit would increase, in real terms, by an average of 1·7% per annum over the next three years. However, in his statement on 25 October, the Minister explained that, following necessary adjustments, a more accurate figure for real-terms growth in Northern Ireland expenditure over the next three years would be an average of 1·2% per annum.

The reduced rate of growth in public expenditure across the UK means that there is a greater emphasis on efficiency and value for money. The Executive’s draft Budget contains a target for Departments to deliver cash-releasing efficiency savings of £793 million by 2010-11. The efficiency drive and future progress by Departments in achieving the targets will exercise the departmental scrutiny Committees and Assembly Members in general.

In commissioning the views of the other Statutory Committees, the Committee for Finance and Personnel has suggested themes and issues, which, though neither prescriptive nor exhaustive, aim to assist the Committees in gathering evidence from their respective Departments and in scrutinising their submissions. The responses will include each Committee’s views on its Department’s spending priorities in the context of the draft Budget allocation. Other suggested issues include any evidence-based arguments for additions to the allocations in the Department’s draft Budget; any risks from existing efficiency plans; and any scope for achieving additional cash-releasing efficiencies or future disposals of excess assets to support front line services and strategic spending priorities.

My Committee is due to receive the responses from the other Committees shortly, and they will be included in our report, which will inform the Executive’s deliberations on the draft Budget in preparation for a substantive Assembly debate on the revised Budget in January 2008.

In addition to setting out the positions of each Statutory Committee, the report will examine a range of strategic and cross-cutting issues. I have already mentioned efficiency savings, but other issues will require consideration and monitoring. Not least of those is the financial management agenda, which the Department of Finance and Personnel will pursue aggressively over the Budget period, including the related issues of overcommitment, underspend and financial forecasting and monitoring by Departments.

The approach of planned overcommitment — whereby more money is allocated to spending programmes before the start of the year than is actually available — helps to reduce underspend by anticipating average levels of reduced requirements and adjusting the total level of resources allocated to programmes accordingly. However, it has been recognised that that approach reduces in-year flexibility and the capacity to respond to in-year unforeseen pressures. Accordingly, the Minister announced the planned year-on-year reduction in overcommitment, from the present figure of £153 million to £100 million in 2008-09, £80 million in 2009-10 and £60 million in 2010-11.

The move to reduce overcommitment must, however, be accompanied by an improvement in the level of financial management in the Northern Ireland Civil Service to ensure that we eradicate the culture of underspend. The Committee has noted that, in the period from 2003-04 to 2005-06, approximately 1% to 2% of revenue budgets across the Northern Ireland block remained unused at the year end. That represented between £113 million and £150 million per annum. In the same period, between 15% and 20% of capital budgets remained unused, amounting to between £170 million and £230 million.

The Committee acknowledges that the Department is taking steps to develop financial-management skills and to improve financial processes across the Civil Service. As part of that initiative, the Department of Finance and Personnel commissioned an external review of forecasting and monitoring from PKF consultants, a report on which was published in June 2007. The overriding finding from the report was that insufficient priority was afforded to forecasting and monitoring. It also highlighted the fact that the average figures for underspend failed to reflect the variance across Departments.

The Committee for Finance and Personnel will monitor the implementation of the recommendations from that review. More generally, all the Statutory Committees will have an important role to play in scrutinising their Departments’ in-year spend by examining each quarterly monitoring round to minimise underspend.

A further cross-cutting theme in the draft Budget is the reform agenda, which DFP will have a key role in co-ordinating. The Civil Service reform projects and programmes are expected to realise a range of benefits and value-for-money savings across the 11 Departments. Those benefits will be measured using a series of key performance indicators, which will be integrated with departmental business planning. Again, there will be an important role for each Statutory Committee in monitoring the progress of the various reform projects in the respective Departments.

The Committee for Finance and Personnel has already produced a report on Workplace 2010, and will continue to scrutinise the future progress and direction of that major accommodation project, which will affect all Departments and is expected to generate approx­imately £175 million in capital receipts during the Budget period. Other key reform projects for which DFP has lead responsibility include NI Direct, which will ultimately provide a single telephone point of contact for public services, and the various shared service centres, including HR Connect, Account NI and Records NI.

Other cross-cutting developments that require consideration include the creation of a performance and efficiency delivery unit and a capital realisation task force. The performance and efficiency delivery unit will be tasked with identifying the scope for generating additional cash-releasing efficiencies and improving delivery and performance within Departments and across the wider public sector. The Committee for Finance and Personnel will be examining the role and functions of that unit, including the targets and reporting mechanisms that will be implemented to measure its performance.

The capital realisation task force is to make recommendations that remove barriers to a more efficient and economically effective use of the asset base, and realising additional resources through the disposal of surplus or underutilised assets. A report is due from the task force in early December, and will inform the final Budget and investment strategy. The Committee for Finance and Personnel will focus on the work of the task force as it affects the capital allocations in the three financial years covered in the Budget period.

A further strategic issue for consideration is the budgetary impact of the rating reforms, including the domestic rating reforms that were announced today by the Minister of Finance and Personnel, and the decision regarding industrial derating. Other cross-cutting issues include the role of PFI and borrowing during the budget period; anticipated savings on procurement spend by Departments; the potential costs and efficiencies from the review of public administration; and the strategic debate around the Barnett formula and needs assessment.

The Committee will also be interested in the outcome of the wider public consultation on the draft Budget. The Department has advised that four public meetings will be held — one each in Belfast, Enniskillen, Londonderry and Armagh. In addition, regarding the voluntary and community sector, the Northern Ireland Council for Voluntary Action will be holding a separate event that DFP officials will attend to facilitate the debate.

The Department will also be holding a range of other meetings with social and economic partners, including the Confederation of British Industry and the Northern Ireland Committee, Irish Congress of Trade Unions. I expect that all Members will be keen for the Executive to take account of the views of key stakeholder groups and of the general public before finalising the Budget.

I shall now turn briefly to the Department of Finance and Personnel’s own draft budget allocations. Regarding current expenditure, the draft Budget 2008-11 prescribes a significant reduction in the share of departmental expenditure limit funds allocated to DFP. The Department has suffered a large cut — the current year’s allocation is 17·1% lower than that for 2006-07, and that trend will continue in subsequent years.

The Committee has focused in particular on the Department’s proposed capital expenditure in the draft Budget. DFP bid for approximately £94·2 million over the three financial years 2008-11 and was allocated £68·7 million. The Committee has queried the potential impact that that reduced allocation may have on delivery, and how DFP plans to manage with an allocation significantly below the amount sought.

In particular, the Committee is concerned about whether the capital allocations for Land and Property Services will be sufficient to allow the organisation to alleviate difficulties with its IT system, especially with regard to rate relief. In addition, the decision announced by the Minister earlier today to introduce rating on vacant domestic property will place a heavy burden on Land and Property Services, which will have to develop the necessary databases. The Committee will pursue the issue with the Department of Finance and Personnel to ensure that any future funding require­ments arising from rating reform can be met in any revised allocations.

I now return to the wider, strategic context. The draft Budget is clearly connected to, and driven by, the priorities set out in the draft Programme for Government and the draft investment strategy, which the Assembly debated yesterday. In addition, however, there are a number of underlying themes and assumptions on which the Budget allocations are based. I have high­lighted, in particular, the entire financial management agenda, together with a drive to reform the public sector in order to deliver the value-for-money and efficiency targets that will enable improvements to be made to front line services, which the people of Northern Ireland deserve.

Those areas will require ongoing monitoring and scrutiny by the Committee for Finance and Personnel, together with the other Statutory Committees and the Assembly, over the next three financial years of the Budget period.

I look forward to hearing Members’ contributions, and I welcome the opportunity for an extended debate on the draft Budget.

Martina Anderson (Sinn Féin, Foyle)

Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. Ba mhaith liom labhairt le tacaíocht a thabhairt don rún. Yesterday, I congratulated the Office of the First Minister and deputy First Minister on the draft Programme for Government and spoke about how ISNI 2 had the potential to deliver on the programme’s priorities of addressing inequality through targeting marginalised sectors.

Today, the House considers the draft Budget, which constitutes the nuts and bolts of how those targets will be achieved. That task faces us all, and the challenge is huge. The facts speak for themselves. Tackling inequality and lifting the boat of the vulnerable means that at least some of the following facts must be addressed: 31% of 16- to 60-year-olds lack paid work; 22% of the workforce is low paid; nearly 25% of households are unable to afford adequate home heating; nearly 100,000 children and 50,000 pensioners are living in income poverty; and there are 3,000 premature deaths each year because of disadvantage and poverty. Those facts are shocking.

The solution is simple: reality — that is, current economic patterns — has to change. It is the task of all MLAs to ensure that that is done. Today, every Member should be asking how that will be achieved. This is, after all, a legacy Budget, and in that context we need to see ministerial leadership and initiative.

I will take the example of fuel poverty. The Assembly has had two debates on that subject and a guarantee that Government will work to eradicate fuel poverty in vulnerable households by 2010 and in households that are not considered vulnerable by 2016. Yesterday, however, we were faced with the headline that the Minister for Social Development intends to cut £10 million — 50% of the current allocation — from the warm homes schemes.

Within the confines of the block Budget from Westminster, the Minister for Social Development, like all Ministers, has to make choices. The question must be asked whether she has made the right choice. Has she the political will and skill to prevent that cut? For instance, has she considered the land banks in her Department’s estate? She has to pay for them annually, but if they were utilised more effectively, they could fund social and affordable housing and contribute to combating fuel poverty.

The Minster of Agriculture and Rural Development, Michelle Gildernew, was required to do that to deal with inescapable pressures. Stand Up for Derry is seeking more social and affordable housing to address the historical neglect of our city and, indeed, of the entire north-west region. Tá mé ag iarraidh tuilleadh infheistíochta i nDoire.

I want more housing and investment for Derry, and I acknowledge the political will and skill shown by the Minister for Regional Development, Conor Murphy, in respect of the railway decision for Derry and the north west. I call on the Minster for Social Development, Margaret Ritchie, to emulate that type of leadership. It is time for wider ministerial leadership, imagination and initiative.

In order to address fuel poverty, the workers at the coalface, all the relevant Departments, and community workers on the ground must be engaged and involved in tackling the issue. Places such as Derry, and elsewhere, have dedicated community workers who know that those who live in fuel poverty experience what that means in reality, and know how best to eliminate it.

Do Ministers engage with stakeholders and residents of local communities before deciding on the choices that they face? I wonder.

It is the job of local officials and administrators to contact people who are living in fuel poverty and ensure that they be helped to be taken out of it quickly. The market will not do that; it must be done by supporting groups that work in those areas. By drilling down and adopting a bottom-up approach, we can work at a community level, and the task will be manageable. The numbers to be dealt with are in the tens or hundreds, perhaps, but not 250,000. That is what is known as the principle of subsidiarity, in EU jargon. That is what good governance and monitoring is all about: bringing all the stakeholders and networks in the community together so that they can work to meet targets, and truly monitor achievements. They are the people at the coalface; they deal daily with those who are disadvantaged, and know exactly what it is like to suffer cold persistently without sufficient money to pay for heating.

Monitoring and measuring our performance is a key part of delivering our objectives, as is ensuring that equality impact assessments are fully complied with across the nine categories of the disabled, the elderly, etc. That is not only the correct thing to do, but represents an intelligent modernising agenda, which is necessary to show that the North has the political skill and will to tackle disadvantage and participate in the global economy. The fact that the Executive are beginning to equality-impact assess their spending, and how they are spending limited finances, is a good-news story to be welcomed at home and abroad.

Moreover, buying into social justice, through social requirements and tendering contracts, is a smart decision that the Executive have taken, as reflected in the Budget. Joined-up governance will be cemented as the Minister of Finance and Personnel applies tendering criteria to procurement agreements, resulting in contractors employing, training and teaching skills to people who have been registered as long-term unemployed. That represents the use of public money to buy social justice, which is brilliant.

Yesterday’s agenda, which left out huge parts of the North, and large groups of people, is not only out of date, but economically counterproductive and unstable, and I am sure that the Minister of Finance and Personnel would agree. It has been only six months since the transfer of powers, and it will take time to throw off the shackles direct rule. Of course, Sinn Féin wants to throw those shackles off entirely.

The world economic order is now discussing a sustain­able model of economic development that integrates social, economic and environmental requirements, rather than regarding them as burdensome add-ons to a narrow, ineffective economic model that has produced stagnation and exclusion in our society.

The limitations of this draft Budget, restricted because we in the North are controlled by a British Administration that does not care about anyone here, regardless of one’s political opinion, or none, would be assisted greatly by advancing the intelligent processes that are inherent in the full equality impact assessment procedure.

The comprehensive spending review results in Ministers making difficult budgetary choices; they must stand over those choices. They must also use political tactics and skills — if they have them — to achieve deliverables and actually build prosperity and tackle disadvantage using the Government and governing opportunities that exist in the current political arrange­ments by linking up with our counterparts in the Twenty-six Counties. The economic and financial future of this part of the island will not be resolved in the context of the Six Counties.

The limitation of the draft Budget should not limit thinking. Joined-up Government should exist beyond the Assembly, especially, when it is economically and politically advantageous for all of the people who reside across the island to have decisions taken that benefit all of us. Go raibh maith agat.

Roy Beggs (UUP, East Antrim)

Sadly, we are faced with difficult choices today, as we discuss the draft Budget and as we approach the final Budget Bill. Those choices would have been considerably easier to make if the £1 billion package, which was promised prior to devolution, had been delivered. However, it was not delivered. Shortly after that, media focus was switched from the £1 billion package to the Varney Review and the corporation tax benefits that could flow from that. We still await them. Where are they, and when will the review be published? The people of Northern Ireland are entitled to know the outcome. Will we receive financial benefits from the Varney Review? Having quashed hopes of a major economic package, with sleight of hand, the focus was switched elsewhere.

Time has moved on. Now, when we are discussing the draft Budget, problems arise again regarding difficult funding choices. I cannot help noticing that the lower rate of corporation tax has not been mentioned by the Minister of Finance and Personnel in recent months — I can only assume that good news is not expected on that subject. A lower rate of corporation tax would have had a major impact on improving our economic standing and in achieving the objectives set out in the draft Programme for Government.

As a member of the Committee for Finance and Personnel, I take an interest in financial matters, generally, and not just in those of the Department of Finance and Personnel. I would like to know where the departmental bids have gone. I have tried to get underneath the spin of the headline figures and the glossy draft Budget with which we were presented. I have raised the matter with departmental officials and have asked questions in the Assembly. However, I have not yet received a copy of the bids that were made by each Department and the outcome of those bids. I am slowly gathering them from the Committees. However, it is right and proper that Assembly Members should have that information.

Last week in Committee, I asked departmental officials, jokingly, whether I had to issue a request under the Freedom of Information Act to obtain the information. Why is that information not available? Why is it not published and easily accessible for everyone to view? Surely, if the public is really being consulted about the draft Budget, it should be made aware of the bids. They should be put into the public domain, either through the ‘Belfast Telegraph’ or the Internet.

People should be made aware of what was contained in each of the bids and the difficult choices that have to be made. This is not just about saying that the winning projects are wonderful; it is about difficult choices; getting the best value for money, and benefiting our community. I have tabled an Assembly question on that matter, which is due to be answered today, and I look forward to receiving that answer. I hope that I do not have to resort to the Freedom of Information Act: that would be absolutely ridiculous.

We are discussing a draft Budget: is this a real consult­ation or not? If it is, let us have the information. That will motivate many people to respond, and the final version of the Budget will be better for it. I hope that that opportunity is taken. It is important that people respond to that consultation, but there must be transparency.

I have concerns about several issues in the draft Budget: first, I will touch briefly on housing. My constituency work has made me aware of the difficulties faced by those who, although they are accepted as being homeless, spend a great deal of time on the housing waiting list and are not afforded the opportunity to remove themselves from the list. Additional resources are required for housing; if the Programme for Govern­ment’s objectives are to be achieved, additional moneys will have to be found between now and the finalised Budget, particularly from the ongoing capital assets review. Therein lies the potential to release additional funds in the form of unused public assets to enable the building of more social housing. I hope that that will be progressed speedily.

Fuel poverty affects a wide range of people, social tenants and homeowners alike. I recently received correspondence from a natural gas provider, Firmus Energy, expressing concern about the possible reduction in funding for the heating replacement programme next year. A constituent contacted me some time ago about an open fire in his upstairs flat. That source of heating was operating at only 28% efficiency, aside from being a health and fire hazard. It is important that energy-efficiency projects such as the heating replacement programme and the warm homes scheme, which is also under threat, are allowed to continue. Fuel poverty must be addressed, and we must also reduce our carbon emissions.

I will turn briefly to the Northern Ireland Children’s Commissioner, whose office published a detailed report in July 2007 in conjunction with OFMDFM and the Department of Finance and Personnel called ‘An Analysis of Public Expenditure on Children in Northern Ireland’, in which it stated that children’s services in Northern Ireland were 30% underfunded compared to similar services in the rest of the United Kingdom. The Children’s Commissioner recently commented that the recommendations of the organisation’s report had not been reflected in the draft Budget; in other words, ensuring that that disparity in funding would continue.

Many other issues, such as speech and language therapy, statementing processes, after-schools clubs, early intervention, and the effects on young people at risk that were highlighted in the Bamford Review, are not being adequately addressed in the draft Budget.

I am very passionate about early-years funding. I recently attended a lecture in Belfast by Professor James Heckman, a Nobel laureate economist who works with early-years organisations. He had a simple message — we must invest in the young. That makes economic sense, but I am not sure that that is what we are doing. There is a larger emphasis on structures, but we must invest in people, especially the very young.

Through my involvement in the Assembly’s all-party children’s committee, I have been advised that long-term funding for the Home Start programme has yet to be secured. Home Start trains and co-ordinates volunteers and assists families who need help. Without Home Start, many children would have a poorer start in life, and some might even have ended up in care. Why can funding not be found for that programme? Mention was made earlier of the need to stand over choices. We must examine the draft Budget carefully to ensure that decisions can be justified, because many issues are not currently being addressed.

I will turn briefly to the draft Budget allocation for OFMDFM. I compared the figures for 2006-07 and 2010-11 and discovered some interesting statistics. Health receives an 18·8% increase over that period, and OFMDFM receives a 51·6% increase.

Why has the Office of the First Minister and deputy First Minister received an additional allocation of £28·7 million since 2006? Is that a good use of our money? In 2001-02, some £2,081,000 was allocated for central administration. However, in the draft Budget, its allocation amounts to £40 million a year. What is going on? Is that a good use of our money? There has also been a huge increase in capital investment. In 2006-07, some £1·5 million was allocated to the Office of the First Minister and deputy First Minister for the three-year period. That figure has now risen to £52·9 million.

That money could be better spent in my constituency on new health centres and health schemes that have been put on hold. Moyle Hospital closed in 1994 and Carrickfergus Hospital closed some decades earlier, yet there have been no replacement state-of-the-art facilities. There has been no significant capital infrastructure to put right those wrongs, yet funding is being directed to other areas that have lost acute services.

We need equality. We must ensure that facilities such as Carrickfergus day centre, which closed due to a leaking roof and electrical faults, are replaced. We must ensure that we provide good value for our money. Why is so much money being spent by the Office of the First Minister and deputy First Minister?

Declan O'Loan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, North Antrim)

At the outset, it may be necessary to claim the right to speak at all. Yesterday, during a point of order that was not actually a point of order, the Minister of Finance and Personnel talked of the need for a Programme for Government and Budget to be agreed by the Assembly. He seemed to think that any word of dissent at this stage was not appropriate.

Perhaps we should reduce the heat a little on this matter. This is a draft Budget — it is out for consultation to Committees of the Assembly and the public. Therefore, let all concerns that are real be expressed. I am sure that the Minister will assure us that it is a genuine consultation process and that he will be willing to make adjustments where the case is good. There are many variables still in the hands of the Minister, including the timing, and many uncertainties, including Workplace 2010, the Varney Review and asset sales. Therefore, there should be no suggestion that any adjustment to this Budget is like the removal of a keystone that will cause the whole edifice to collapse.

The context for this draft Budget is clear. Northern Ireland has an infrastructure, much of which is obsolete. It has a private sector economy that is relatively small and fairly weak. Our main source of income is the block grant from the Treasury. Northern Ireland does not pay its way. It needs a subvention of several billion pounds per annum, perhaps up to half of the £16 billion of public spending annually. The block grant is determined by the Barnett formula, and those who know tell us that we do not get a bad deal from that mechanism. There was a threat yesterday that we would hear a great deal more about the Barnett formula, so perhaps we should listen to that advice.

The dramatic increases in public spending over recent years are now over. Over the next three years of the comprehensive spending review, public spending here will rise in real terms by just 1·2% per annum. That is not a large increase, but we should not dismiss it as nothing.

Our other main source of income is the regional rate, which yields about £500 million per annum, or 6% of what we spend. The scope for deriving more income from the regional rate is constrained, as a result of the proposal to include a charge for water and sewerage alongside the rates bill, which most parties seem inclined to go along with as the least bad solution to a real problem.

The Minister has indicated his proposal to freeze the domestic regional rate in absolute terms and the business regional rate in real terms for three years. Given the pressure on households, in particular, to pay for water, there will not be much dissent from those proposals. Almost half of the block grant is already spoken for in the annually managed expenditure that is allocated for social security benefits and the like.

We are now debating how to carve up the remaining money among the Departments. The Minister told us in the speech that introduced the draft Budget that the annual amounts will run from £8·3 billion to £8·9 billion over the Budget period. There is also ISNI money — I must tell Nelson McCausland that that ISNI isnae Ulster Scots. [Laughter.]

That money ranges from £1·6 billion to £1·8 billion over the period for investment in basic infrastructure. Those are large sums, and they will enable substantial improvements to be made to the quality of life of all our people.

There are major pressures on the Budget. Every Department has a list of necessary projects, but not all of those demands can be satisfied. I must express concerns about particular spending programmes. The first relates to the provision for social and affordable housing. The draft Budget document states of DSD:

“The Department’s aims are to make a difference to the lives of the most vulnerable and disadvantaged in our society through providing access to decent affordable and energy efficient housing.”

Those are exactly the right aims, and I am sure that every Member will support them. Other Members of my party will expand on those concerns about that aspect of the draft Budget.

Another matter that relates to housing is the funding for improving the energy efficiency and insulation standards of homes, which is to be drastically cut. It astonishes me that that programme is to be cut back, rather than increased. Again, other SDLP Members will say more on that matter, but I note Martina Anderson’s comments, and I welcome the indications that her party will support an increase to the DSD’s budget to allow it to address that matter.

Efficiency savings have been given a significant place in the Minister’s plans. The 3% and 5% cumulative year-on-year targets are central to his ability to deliver. Nearly half of the:

“increase in health departmental spending power” —

— will come from those savings in the third year. We must note the language that is used in some of the DFP information. There is much use of the interesting phrase, “spending power”, but it is not, to a significant degree, real money. Built into that spending power are savings that are yet to be realised. There has been very little scrutiny of efficiency targets, and I intend to ask the Committee for Finance and Personnel to examine those more closely. Are such savings in the health sector really available in the short term in a service that is so dependent on front line staff? There is no doubt that we need a better Health Service, and that that will mean great structural change, but it will not happen overnight.

Similarly, much has been made of the potential of the performance and efficiency delivery unit. I heard the Minister offering its services to the Minister of Health, Social Services and Public Safety recently, and that made me wonder how it would really work. Evidently, it has an opt-in or voluntary nature. Again, the Committee must examine that mechanism extremely closely and, indeed, all Committees should reflect on how it will affect them and their work.

I wish to raise a few issues that affect my own constituency of North Antrim, the first of which caused real alarm recently. The new health and care centre that was promised for Ballymena within two or three years, and which would have revolutionised healthcare in the community right up to the north coast, has been written out of the script. That is shocking and totally unexpected news. Representatives for North Antrim from all political parties in the House are aghast, and will be lobbying the Assembly to reinstate the centre. I cannot understand why that has happened, and I hope that I will have the support of all Members for North Antrim in addressing that matter — some of them are in rather influential positions and must have missed that part of the draft Budget.

I shall mention other North Antrim concerns only briefly. I welcome recent steps towards a development for Rathlin Island, and I want to see provisions for the outcomes of that in the Budget. The railway relay from Coleraine to Derry has been announced in the press. I assume that there is some substance behind that announce­ment, but it is missing from the draft Programme for Government and the draft Budget. Can we have clarification on when that will happen?

I hope that money has been put in reserve for a contribution to the proposal from the National Trust and Moyle District Council for a visitors’ centre at the Giant’s Causeway. We may, at last, get a resolution to that situation, which has become an embarrassment for several Ministers.

I hope that our rural roads, which are a disgrace, will finally get some real money spent on them.

Finally, I want to mention one agricultural issue. The proposals for the reduction of brucellosis and TB in cattle will not work, and that money would be better spent on a full eradication programme, which will be cheaper in the long run.

Stephen Farry (Alliance, North Down)

I congratulate the Minister of Finance and Personnel on the presentation of his first draft Budget. Although my party does not agree with every aspect of it, I recognise that it is a substantial piece of work. It puts to rest the notion that six months is too short a time for the Executive to produce anything meaningful.

One matter requires clarification. At the outset of the debate, Martina Anderson referred to the draft Budget being a legacy. However, when the Minister of Finance and Personnel presented the draft Budget, he was keen to point out that it represents a major break from direct rule Ministers’ Budgets. The draft Budget cannot be both those things: it must be one or the other. There is an interesting split of opinion in the Executive.

I thank the Committee for Finance and Personnel for tabling the motion. Although the Alliance Party had tabled an amendment, it is content to accept the advice and guidance of the Speaker on the matter and withdraw the amendment accordingly. My party respects the Speaker’s rulings, unlike some Members that I could mention.

The fact that there is no amendment on which some notes of concern can coalesce should not, nevertheless, leave the Executive in any doubt that there are major concerns about the content of the draft Budget, not only from my party but from other quarters in the House. There will be many future opportunities to test those matters formally through Divisions. Like many other Members, Alliance Party Members welcome the draft Budget’s economic focus. However, it is important not to allow the economic delivery claims that have been made to go without challenge and proper scrutiny.

During the past decade, there has been a peace dividend. However, despite economic growth and investment during recent years, major structural problems remain. There must be an overarching imperative to rebalance the economy between the public and private sectors. Public finances are hugely dependent on financial subvention from the Treasury — some £7 billion each year — which funds almost half of the local services. That is clearly unsustainable. The Minister is on record as saying that the problem in Northern Ireland is not that the public sector is too large but that the private sector is too small. However, that stance seems to have changed somewhat, with an open challenge being posed to the public sector.

Unemployment now stands at under 4%. However, beneath that percentage lies the societal indictment that 27% of the working-age population are economically inactive. That is a huge wasted resource for the entire community and its shared prosperity.

Much of the recent investment and rapid employment growth has occurred in the relatively lower-added-value sectors of the economy. The overarching economic imperative must now be to close the productivity gap between Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK average, which is measured by gross value added (GVA). In order to shift that, more high-value-added investment, promo­tion of exports and more high-paid jobs are required. The figure has been stuck at around 80% of UK average employment figures for quite some time, and the problem lies with UK regional policy. Despite the platitudes from successive Governments on the need to develop the regions, nothing is allowed to challenge the dominant position of London and the south-east of England as the main drivers of the UK economy. Financial dependency is tolerated rather than the regions being given the means to become more sustainable.

I note that the Executive have shifted the target for GVA to halving the gap with the UK average minus the greater south-east of England. Although, in one respect, it might be nice to remove the distorting influence of the south-east, moving the goalposts in that manner does not do Northern Ireland any favours. Overall consideration must be given to the balance in the UK economy as a whole. There is little point in comparing Northern Ireland with the other dependent regions and fighting over the scraps, and not effectively challenging the overall centralisation of the UK economy.

The draft Budget’s rhetoric and aspirations for the economy are lofty and ambitious. However, they pose two fundamental questions: first, does Northern Ireland have the necessary tools to make a step change to the economy? In the absence of tax-varying powers or other fiscal incentives, it is difficult to see how that step change can be realised. The one fiscal tool at the Executive’s disposal — industrial derating — is essentially anachronistic. If anything, it is geared to subsidising a low-value-added economy rather than attracting high-value-added jobs. It deals with the status quo rather than the type of economy that Members want for Northern Ireland. I appreciate the fact that there are few alternatives and that, therefore, we must support it regardless. However, it is important that the limitations of that approach are recognised.

The Varney Review’s indications are not encour­aging. What is left is incremental change rather than a step change.

The jury is out on whether we are using to their full effect the existing tools and instruments that are at our disposal, and there are grounds to be sceptical.

The four remaining main economic drivers are skills, enterprise, innovation and infrastructure. Of those drivers, the most critical area of emphasis is skills. The targets for PhDs in the draft Budget and draft Programme for Government may prove to be too conservative, especially if the brain drain continues. Moreover, stronger incentives for students to study the STEM subjects — science, technology, engineering and mathematics — are needed. By the same token, at the other end of the spectrum, the core issues of numeracy and literacy are being neglected. Without addressing numeracy and literacy, it is doubtful whether we will have a critical mass of workers who are able to play their role in the global economy.

I am concerned that more effort has not been put into improving the public-transport infrastructure. Figures in the draft investment strategy suggest that 60% of funds will be invested in roads in the first three years, and that that will rise to 80% over 10 years. That is almost a mirror image of the situation in the rest of the United Kingdom. Although we must catch up on the infrastructure backlog, there are environmental concerns to consider. If we are to have a modern, twenty-first century infrastructure, especially in Belfast, we must invest more heavily in public transport from the overall transport budget.

I am surprised that greater emphasis has not been placed on the potential of the green economy and, in particular, on the new economic opportunities that will arise from tackling climate change. Questions also arise about the resources earmarked to assist the economy, and about whether those resources are being used to full effect. More and more resources are to be poured into the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Investment and Invest NI. However, whether there is to be any fundamental change in their approach is far from clear.

At the risk of angering farmers, I note that £45 million has been set aside for modernising the agriculture industry. That sector represents only 2% of the economy, and I cannot help wondering whether that money would be better used in another sector, in which there is higher growth potential. This morning we heard about the tourism industry, for example. It also represents approximately 2% of the economy, but it is an area in which there exists a great deal more room for expansion. Perhaps the resources set aside for agriculture could be better deployed in assisting with rural transition and more general development.

We must also be conscious of the impact on the economy, especially on small businesses, of the scaling-back of investment in public services. I include the building of social housing in that. Members must be aware that the deep divisions in Northern Ireland have an impact on the economy. Economic change and creating a shared future go hand in hand. Therefore, the scarcity of the resources that have been made available to invest in providing shared and mixed facilities and to promote good relations is a major flaw.

I intend to make a few overarching comments on the more general resource allocations rather than delve into too much detail. That said, I have major concerns over the health and housing budgets, and I am sure that other Members will address those concerns. A tight UK comprehensive spending review has been made even tighter by decisions to freeze the regional rate, to reintroduce water charges within the ambit of the regional rate and to reduce the level of planned overcommitment. Much now depends on the 3% efficiency savings to be found across Departments. All Whitehall Departments are attempting to achieve the same targets, so Northern Ireland is not unique in that respect. Those savings are achievable, and, in fact, annual cost savings in the private sector are routinely achieved at the beginning of a Budget process. However, our problem is that there is an almost singular focus on achieving savings from internal running costs and procedures rather than through taking a hard look at how public services are delivered.

The process of CSR bids by Departments here, and the subsequent questions about which of them have been addressed and which have not, means that the focus inevitably falls on the additional extra 2% or 3%. Little attention is paid beyond and below the baseline. At the other end of the debate, it is arguable that our Departments’ bids were overly conservative and that major investments have both been lost and not been offered. Even with that conservative mindset, only about half of the CSR bids are to be funded through the Budget. There is a transparency issue, and the Alliance Party has had to table several questions in order to get to the heart of some of the issues.

For some time, the Alliance Party has highlighted the vast amount of resources that are tied up in Northern Ireland to maintain a divided society. Huge opportunity costs are involved in investing in quality public services for the entire community. We have estimated them at around about £1 billion a year, but a report by Deloitte goes a step further and says that the figure is as high as £1·5 billion each year. Sadly, the Office of the First Minister and deputy First Minister has binned that report. Those costs are clearly embedded in the system through duplication in the provision of goods, facilities and services, and it will take many years to unlock them. However, we must start now by investing those additional resources. That could have been the subject of any peace dividend. There is a real economic and financial imperative to creating a shared future, and, although the Minister of Finance and Personnel alluded to the Deloitte report in his draft Budget statement, there is little evidence that he has considered its contents in his actual proposals, and in the details of the actual bids and efficiency savings. Education is one area in which a great deal more work must be done.

Simon Hamilton (DUP, Strangford)

I welcome the opportunity to participate in the debate. Although you have ruled on and rejected the amendments, Mr Speaker, I note that those who tabled them still took the opportunity to level the criticisms that they contained. Some of the strange claims that have been made in the Chamber today reflect the contents of those amendments. The House was almost subjected, for a third time, to an Alliance Party amendment criticising the supposed lack of innovative thinking in the draft forms of the Programme for Government, the investment strategy and the Budget. The failure of Alliance Party Members to come up with anything new demonstrates that the real lack of innovative thinking lies with them.

The first claim that must be refuted is that the draft Budget is somehow unable to deliver economic growth in Northern Ireland. Given the comments made after the publication of the draft Budget — which has been branded the most economy-focused and business-friendly ever — that is a particularly peculiar claim. In some quarters, the draft Budget has even been branded Thatcherite and right wing.

It is worth recalling some comments that were made in the aftermath of the draft Budget’s publication, both in evidence to the Committee for Enterprise, Trade and Investment and to the press. The Federation of Small Businesses offered an enthusiastic response to the proposals. The Confederation of British Industry in Northern Ireland said that it strongly supported the focus on productivity, strongly welcomed the increased commitment to Invest Northern Ireland and welcomed the increased resources being allocated to tourism. The Northern Ireland Chamber of Commerce and Industry welcomed the fact that the Executive regard the develop­ment of the economy as their top priority. Declan Billington of the Institute of Directors stated that the draft Budget would build confidence across the business community in Northern Ireland to join with Government in investing in our future. Finally, Michael Wightman of the Northern Ireland Manufacturing Focus Group said:

“The NIFMG is both relieved and delighted that … the Stormont Executive has listened to us … today’s draft Budget has given manufacturing a real boost.”

That view is consistent among Northern Ireland’s business leaders. I am sure that I will be forgiven for accepting the view of the local business community, as opposed to that of the Alliance Party, on the draft Budget’s ability to stimulate economic growth.

The second claim, which is trotted out ad infinitum by the Alliance Party, is that the draft Budget will not tackle the issue of resources being directed away from a divided society. I will not allow the hypocrisy of the Alliance Party to go unchallenged. Only a matter of weeks ago, on Tuesday 13 November, the Alliance Party voted for a club bank to assist the Irish-medium schools sector. That is a more divisive and costly example of a divided society. The Alliance Party cannot criticise the draft Budget and, at the same time, demand money to create more division. In yesterday’s debate, my colleague Peter Weir commented on how the Alliance Party’s cost-of-division dogma is becoming tiresome and compared its credibility to that of the promise of its sister party, the Liberal Democrats, to put 1p on income tax.

The draft Budget will be broadly welcomed across Northern Ireland. The cap on industrial rating at 30% demonstrates the Executive’s commitment to develop­ment and their consideration of the many costs that businesses face. People will be particularly pleased by the Minister of Finance and Personnel’s announcement of a three-year freeze in the regional rate. It is funny that, although some parties complain about the allocation to one Department or another, I hear few moaning about that freeze.

The Ulster Unionist Party claims that a financial package did not materialise, and it is worth elaborating on some of Mr Roy Beggs’s earlier comments. He talked about the lack of a “£1 billion financial package”. However, if the matter is to be discussed, it is worth basing it on fact. Ulster Unionist Party Members participated fully in negotiations when they trotted off to Downing Street with the rest of the political parties. Several core elements were negotiated, including guaranteed flat real growth, an additional £100 million each year over the CSR period, access to additional spending under end-year flexibility of £320 million and the retention of asset sales of £500 million.

In negotiations on the CSR, the Minister of Finance and Personnel achieved £443 million over and above the previous CSR guarantee, access to additional end-year funding of almost £300 million and access to over £100 million of borrowing on reinvestment and reform initiatives.

Perhaps my mathematics are better than those of the Member for East Antrim Roy Beggs, but I am sure that that adds up to well in excess of £1 billion.

Roy Beggs (UUP, East Antrim)

Will the Member give way?

Simon Hamilton (DUP, Strangford)

Yes, so that the Member can apologise for his error.

Roy Beggs (UUP, East Antrim)

Will the Member tell the House what is the amount of new money, instead of talking about recycled money from selling off our assets? It is normal practice that one can reinvest assets in other capital projects. Moreover, end-year flexibility is normally provided, once applied for. I accept that £100 million has been provided, but where is the £1 billion of new money, rather than recycled money?

Simon Hamilton (DUP, Strangford)

The Member might be confusing the rules of assets sales with those that he has experienced at local council level, and perhaps he is not aware of the Treasury’s rules. Perhaps the Member does not want poorly utilised assets to be sold on, and the money to be reclaimed.

Basil McCrea (UUP, Lagan Valley)

Does the Member agree with his leader, Ian Paisley, who, after the Chancellor’s announcement about the supposed extra £1 billion — over four years, mark you — said:

“Progress has been made in some areas, but I do not believe there is anything in the present proposals of the Chancellor which will lead to the step change in the economy that is needed”?

No package; no £1 billion — that is why we are scrabbling for money.

Simon Hamilton (DUP, Strangford)

The Member might find it useful to listen to the sums of money that has been outlined.

Peter Robinson (DUP, Belfast East)

I wonder whether, as he looks at quotes from various people over the years, Basil McCrea is aware of the gestation period that applied to the financial package. Prior to devolution, a Programme for Government Committee met in the Assembly, of which the various parties were members. I asked the other parties to hold back from going into Government until we secured a satisfactory package, but none of them supported that. Indeed, Mr McNarry publicly attacked the DUP for its position of holding out to get more money from the Chancellor.

Simon Hamilton (DUP, Strangford)

We all recall how the Ulster Unionist Party was itching to jump into Government at the last election, irrespective of a financial package or the actions of the republican movement. The Ulster Unionists were dying to get into Government, although now it seems that some of them are dying to get out. It is unreal that the Ulster Unionist Party levels any criticism at the DUP Benches, given its total failure to even raise the issue of a financial package —

Roy Beggs (UUP, East Antrim)

Will the Member give way?

Simon Hamilton (DUP, Strangford)

No; I have given way enough.

The DUP remembers that the Ulster Unionists were too busy trying to feather their own nests by seeking knighthoods to ask for capital investment or money for the people of Northern Ireland.

The final — and outrageous — claim that must be tackled is that the health budget has been poorly funded. I am staggered and astonished that anyone could consider an allocation that represents 51·5% of all additional money, and 48% of Northern Ireland’s total Budget, as a bad deal. Expenditure on health and social care in Northern Ireland is over 10% higher than in England, which is a trend that the Budget will continue. Spending on health has more than doubled since 2001, yet no one would argue that the NHS is performing twice as well. That proves Appleby’s point that the key is not the amount of resources, but how they are utilised.

Instead of adopting Oliver Twist’s begging-bowl approach, the Minister for Health, Social Services and Public Safety should address the serious inefficiencies in the NHS in Northern Ireland: staff productivity; consultant productivity; hospital throughput; average length of stay in hospital; and prescription charges; are all worse than in England. I sense that the Minister has not got the stomach for the challenge, but in the spirit of generosity — and for the betterment of the people of Northern Ireland — I extend a helping hand to him. If the Minister has not got the bottle to do it, there are Members who will help. The Members who made those claims must state from which Departments they would take resources for jobs, schools or planning.

Roy Beggs (UUP, East Antrim)

OFMDFM.

Simon Hamilton (DUP, Strangford)

I hear OFMDFM being suggested as the place where the money should be taken from, as if taking money away from there would be a positive thing. I am sure that the Member will revisit his comments when he considers that responsibility for the innocent victims of terrorist violence is included within OFMDFM.

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

The Member’s time is almost up.

Simon Hamilton (DUP, Strangford)

Thank you very much.

Would the UUP pay for it by trebling the rates bill?

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

I ask the Member to take his seat.

Simon Hamilton (DUP, Strangford)

I commend the Budget to the House.

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

I ask the Member to take his seat, and I remind Members to address their comments through the Chair.

Carál Ní Chuilín (Sinn Féin, Belfast North)

Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. Just as I dared to doze, things started to liven up. Ba mhaith liom tacaíocht a thabhairt don rún. [Interruption.] Say nothing.

After yesterday’s debate on the draft Programme for Government it is clear that there are tensions and difficulties in trying to reconcile the vision that is set out in it with the investment strategy. There are clearly difficulties in trying to reconcile the differences between departmental bids and the aspirations set out in the departmental Budget statements.

There is also concern in the community about the impact of the draft Budget, particularly on funding for community projects, which will undoubtedly be covered in the consultations between now and the new year. I wish to mention some of the issues that have been brought to my attention, both as Sinn Féin’s health spokesperson and as one of the six MLAs for North Belfast.

We need to decide on an approach to healthy living, as opposed to solely tackling ill health. Our approach to health provision and social care is deficient, and the challenge for the Assembly is in how we tackle that. Members will expect me to say this, but I do want to see the implementation of Bairbre de Brún’s Investing for Health strategy.

Prevention should be at the heart of our approach to the inequalities in health and how they can be addressed. Forty-eight per cent of the overall Budget is dedicated to health and social care, yet there is still massive under-resourcing and difficulty in the Health Service. The public has huge interest in proper investment in the Health Service, particularly in mental health, and yet there is a shortfall in the bid for mental health and the implementation of the Bamford Review, which has caused a lot of concern. I appeal to the Department of Health and the Minister to find a resolution.

There must be a reconciliation of the 2013 Bamford target in the draft Programme for Government and the two Bamford bids. That is crucial to meeting the aspirations of those working in mental health and restoring public confidence. Anything less will ensure that the mental-health service will remain “the Cinderella service”.

Ill health reduces economic activity, and the evidence shows that mental illness reduces economic output, so greater investment in health is a strategic measure for improving economic performance. There are clearly gaps between the funds that are available for service development and the totals required.

The Department for Social Development also causes concern in the community. Although DSD received an additional £27 million a few weeks ago in the last monitoring round, there has been a proposal to cut the warm homes scheme by 50%, as well as an inability to deliver social and affordable homes in the new-build programme. DSD has more assets, land and properties than any other Department. The draft Programme for Government states that:

“Inequalities exist, and we must strive to eliminate all forms of inequality.”

However, in the area-at-risk programme, £3 million of funding was skewed towards loyalist areas. There is grave concern about that, about the blatant disregard for objective need as a criterion and about how equality for all plays out in communities.

The voluntary and community sectors, most of which provide excellent and invaluable support for all the people, require services that need to be supported on a long-term basis instead of the piecemeal approach that has drawn complaints recently. The overarching responsibility of the Executive is to proactively change the existing patterns of social disadvantage, not to replicate them.

The Department for Social Development’s Minister is a member of the Executive — sometimes — and has responsibility for that commitment. How will the circle be squared? How will we explain that to the people who are on the housing waiting list in north Belfast? Anything from 76% to 85% of nationalists are waiting for a home, and a right to a home is enshrined in human rights legislation.

Everyone agrees that there is not enough money in the draft Budget. We must examine the legacy of underfunding, and deprivation in infrastructure and social services. Every Department faces tough decisions. There is a need to show creativity and imagination — and no need for scaremongering. We need leadership, and not emotional blackmail. The unofficial opposition must tell us what they intend to do, instead of what they do not.

I support the take-note debate on the draft Budget.

Adrian McQuillan (DUP, East Londonderry)

The draft Budget and draft Programme for Government have been set against a backdrop of tight financial settlements. When we consider all that the documents contain, it is obvious that a mid- to long-term view has been taken in producing the draft. However, it is such a pity that some in the Assembly are so short-sighted that they cannot see that the aim is a sustainable development, growth and expansion of Northern Ireland’s economy. Perhaps after today’s debate they will clearly see the true scope and vision of the proposals.

Although it must be remembered that Northern Ireland’s public money does not come from a bottomless pit, the variety and scope of the draft programme is truly great. It includes the expansion of the infrastructure needed to satisfy modern investment; deferring water rates — indeed reducing them; increasing the educational attainment of our young people; reducing levels of poverty; increasing the levels of economic activity; protecting our environment; reducing the number of deaths on our roads; reducing treatment times and increasing the survival rate of bowel cancer and strokes. All that has come from an Assembly in which there are still critics.

If the draft Budget lacks vision, I fail to see how and where. Improvements are envisaged in every Department — something that cannot be said about direct-rule policies. Most of all, Northern Ireland’s own elected representatives have devised and agreed the draft Budget to fund the draft Programme for Government. That is an achievement that some Members fail to recognise. Perhaps they do not have seats at the Executive table and, therefore, have decided instead to be negative.

I am proud to be a Member of an Assembly that has such a vision for Northern Ireland. It has identified the very real needs that exist in the Province, has the courage to develop unique policies that can begin to address those needs and is delivering the government for which it was democratically elected by the people of Northern Ireland.

As the First Minister said on 8 May 2007, we are only at the beginning of the process of developing Northern Ireland to ensure a stable economy, respect and equality for all, increased opportunity, a rise in the level of economic activity, the provision of good healthcare and a pleasant environment to live in. That begins with this draft Budget.

I support the draft Budget and the motion.

Michael McGimpsey (UUP, Belfast South)

The debate provides me with a further opportunity to highlight the real difficulties that the draft Budget creates for the Health Service. Further­more, it allows me to respond to some of the naïve comments that were made in the Chamber yesterday. As the Minister of Health, Social Services and Public Safety, it is my duty to set out the perspective as I find it on the ground.

As an Executive, we have a shared objective to ensure that people have access to the best health and social care services possible within the resources available. We need an informed debate based on the real world. I do not ask for the sun, the moon and the seven stars. I have reduced my bids to levels that could be met without catastrophe either for the ratepayer or for any other area of public services. I am as committed as anyone to securing reform, efficiency and productivity.

I know that there are limits on what is possible, and that we all face difficult choices. Who knows what the position could have been if economic packages had been delivered as promised by some?

There is a cross-party consensus at Westminster, supported by independent experts, that the National Health Service model requires significant investment. Moreover, it is agreed that radical action is needed to promote prevention and reform to make the system better for patients. I am committed to doing just that.

The outcome of the comprehensive spending review has reflected that, with a 3·7% real-terms increase in England over the next three years. In Northern Ireland, where the need is greater, the increase is only 1%.

I believe passionately in the principles of the National Health Service: that it must be free at the point of use, and provide services from the cradle to the grave. If we fail to adequately fund the Health Service in Northern Ireland, those principles will be at risk, and we would be undermining the service for those who depend on it the most. Frankly, that is not acceptable.

Health is not about politics; it is about saving lives. That there has been so much debate about funding proves how important this issue is. I have no problem working with the Minister of Finance and Personnel, the Health Committee, and others, and, indeed, I welcome their assistance in attempting to reach a solution.

There have been comments to the effect that, despite high levels of funding, the Health Service has not improved. People have complained that the service is over-bureaucratic, inefficient and ineffective. Let us remember the dire situation that we faced five years ago: horrendous trolley waits, growing waiting lists, and a service that was not performing. Things have changed for the better, and the facts prove that. For example, in March 2006, there were 74,000 people waiting for more than six months for a first outpatient appointment. By March this year, that total had fallen to only 32. Trolley waits are being eradicated, there will be a maximum of a four-hour wait in accident and emergency by March 2008, and delayed discharges are being eliminated. Of course, I could go on, but the point is that this is not all about money.

Tackling inefficiencies is essential. About £115 million of savings have already been achieved. I am committed to delivering a further £343 million of savings over the next three years, including in administration costs. Approximately £500 million of savings will be found and pumped back into essential front line services. That will not be easy. Difficult decisions must be made. However, I will make them. If I am able to achieve more efficiencies, I will do so. However, my priority is to safeguard the quality of patient care — not simply to make cuts.

Much has also been said about needs, and there has been a dispute about the level of need. There should not be a dispute. Professor John Appleby’s report, ‘Independent Review of Health and Social Care Services in Northern Ireland’, highlighted a greater need in Northern Ireland. Officials in my Department and in the Department of Finance and Personnel considered the need identified by the Appleby steering group, and agreed that the best available estimate is of a 14% to 15% greater need in Northern Ireland.

Compared to England, no one can dispute the fact that our Health Service is underfunded by £300 million. Neither is there any disagreement that, in just three years time, the draft Budget will leave the Health Service with a massive £600 million funding gap. However, I do not wish to get sidetracked by numbers. This is not about figures, it is about need, and no one should be in any doubt about that. The growing gap between services here and in the rest of the UK is not acceptable. Our people deserve better. They pay taxes and National Insurance like everyone else in the UK — why should they be penalised?

Let us compare health services in Northern Ireland and England. It is simply unacceptable that, if we had the same rate of deaths from heart disease as the rest of the UK, 300 fewer people would die each year in Northern Ireland. If we had the same adoption rates as England, another 50 to 60 children in care would be adopted each year. It is not acceptable that waiting times for all services are much longer in Northern Ireland. Death rates from bowel cancer are 16% higher than the UK average. When adjusted for need, funding for mental-health and learning-disability services is approximately 34% lower than in England. The gap in children’s services is similar.

I intend to make the best use of all the resources at my disposal. Additional resources that have been added to my budget amount to £455 million by year 3. That is not even enough to meet the inescapable pressures of pay, price, demography and existing commitments. I must use the major part of my efficiency savings to cover inescapable costs, which leaves only £16 million in year 1 to introduce and improve services. The draft Programme for Government sets out the improvements that I wish to make to a range of services, such as mental health, learning disability, community, stroke and cancer services —

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

Will the Member give way?

Michael McGimpsey (UUP, Belfast South)

Let me finish.

Most of those improvements will not be in place until 2011. With only £16 million available next year, this is effectively a stand-still Budget for the next two years in respect of health.

Let me be clear also about some of the things that I cannot do. I will not be able to improve hospital waiting times.

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

Will the Member give way?

Michael McGimpsey (UUP, Belfast South)

Mr Speaker, I am not giving way.

People with mental-health and learning-disability problems will remain in hospitals. The introduction of free prescriptions, free eye examinations and free personal care are all unaffordable. Measures to reduce death rates from cancer and heart disease cannot be implemented. Additional, specialist, salaried foster-carers to support children on the edge of care will not be provided. The breast-cancer screening programme cannot be extended to include women aged between 65 and 70. Access to new, life-changing drugs will be deferred or delayed, and at least 3,000 people with chronic illnesses will have unnecessary hospital admissions.

That list is unacceptable to Members and to the public. This Budget is only a draft, and it is a basis for consultation with the Assembly and the general public. That fact was confirmed by the Executive at last Thursday’s meeting. Resources can be changed through consultation, not through scaremongering or through talk about tripling the rates, but by re-examining our priorities.

I will play my part in delivering exceptionally challenging efficiency savings and improving productivity in the National Health Service in Northern Ireland. However, if the draft Budget is approved as it stands, a conscious decision will have been taken to ignore the advice of independent and highly regarded experts, such as Wanless and Appleby. Those experts have told us consistently that higher levels of resources are needed to deal with demographic trends and the cost of new technologies.

I would be failing in my role as Minister of Health, Social Services and Public Safety if I did not continue to fight for a better Health Service. The people of Northern Ireland deserve better; they deserve a Health Service of which we can all be proud. If the draft Budget is approved as it stands, everyone will lose. Health is the one issue that touches everyone in society. My priorities are putting patients first and delivering a world-class Health Service.

Frankly, this draft Budget fails to deliver for the Health Service and for the people of Northern Ireland.

Mark Durkan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

I wish to make some remarks as Chairperson of the Committee for Enterprise, Trade and Investment, and I will make others as an SDLP Member for Foyle.

The Committee for Enterprise, Trade and Investment has benefited from hearing the views of several stake­holders, and more briefing sessions have been promised. The Committee welcomes the fact that growing the economy is a top priority in the Programme for Government and that that is reflected in the Budget.

The draft Budget proposals for the Department provide resource and capital allocations that broadly align with what the Committee generally considers to be the Department’s key spending priorities in contributing to growing a dynamic, innovative economy. The Committee notes that the funding for INI is more securely based than it was under the previous concordat. However, we recognise that some of the spirit of the concordat remains in the industrial development guarantee, which provides that no worthwhile proposal for eligible support to investment in industry or tradable services will be lost, even if that means diverting other resources.

The Committee wants to ensure that, if the need to resort to that industrial development guarantee should arise — possibly as a result of great success following the US/NI investment conference — it would not be used at the expense of some of the other budget commitments relating to cross-cutting efforts on skills, wider economic development, research and development, training and innovation. Those matters are integral to growing the innovative economy.

The Committee has noted with some concern that no specific identifiable resources have been allocated so far to local enterprise and the social economy. We will be examining that area in the hope that that will be changed.

Yesterday, in the debate on the draft Programme for Government, I recorded concern about innovation funding. In a high-profile announcement, the former Chancellor allocated money for innovation, and further moneys were allocated in support of innovation from the Irish Government. Additional money has been provided for innovation, but there is no visible additional innovation funding in the Budget. The Committee wants to be assured that the new innovation funding is not being used to cover pre-existing innovation funds. The Committee hopes that work on that issue will be more visible and positive by the time of the revised Budget.

There are resource and capital allocations that will enable the Tourist Board to improve its role. The Committee is disappointed that so far there has been no indication of any bids that were made to support the regional tourism partnerships, and it is not clear what allocations they will receive. The Tourist Board has an important job, as does Tourism Ireland, but the regional tourism partnerships also have an important role to play, both locally and in making sure that there is good meshing between Tourism Ireland and the Tourist Board.

The Committee wants money to go specifically to tourism product development. I noted what the Minister of Enterprise, Trade and Investment said about that this morning in his statement. Therefore, the Committee looks forward to positive engagement on that issue.

We recognise that moneys are being provided for the five signature projects. I champion the importance of the Walled City signature tourism project in my constituency, which has made good progress compared to other projects. However, that does not mean that it is not in need of more funding and more backing. Obviously, there are issues about the funding gap for the Titanic Quarter. We will also wait with interest to find out what is happening regarding the allocation that is provided for the Giant’s Causeway visitors’ centre. Money that we were told was earmarked for the public-sector project is still there, so Members will be interested to find out what happens to that.

The Committee welcomes the fact that Safe Start NI will receive funding in year 2 of the cycle; however, we would have preferred that that take place in the first year of this spending round.

The Committee is concerned about unmet bids from the Department regarding EU structural funds. The Department will have a managing and certifying role for the competitiveness programme, yet there are no new resources to meet that new role. Similarly, there was a high discretionary administration bid regarding obligations under the energy end-use efficiency and energy services directive, and that has not been met either. Those are both important areas.

Regarding EU funding, the Committee recognises that DETI is benefiting considerably from the Peace III programme. We also recognise that different parties and other sectors might have different views of that. Those views might be reflected by other Departments during the course of the draft Budget. If there is any revisiting of the share of the Peace III funding that has been envisaged for DETI, and if that is to go to some other Department’s budget lines, my Committee will want that transfer made good in the DETI budget lines so that the purposes and priorities of the Programme for Government are properly reflected.

Suggestions were made last night and elsewhere that Members are not allowed to have the view that there can be any improvement or any material revision of either the draft Budget or the draft Programme for Government. Clearly, improvement and revision are required. It is the Assembly’s job to contribute to such consultation and such reconsideration. Parties cannot say that it is their way and their say only, and that no other Members are allowed to have an alternative view.

When the draft Budget and the draft Programme for Government were being presented, the Ministers went out of their way to misrepresent the record of the previous Executive and, in particular, to attack other parties. They cannot then insist that those other parties do not have the right to outline their views of the draft Budget.

Mr Speaker, we recognise your ruling regarding amendments, and I fully understand and accept the reason for that ruling.

Some of us have been at pains to highlight the inadequacy, as we see it, of the allocations for health and housing. In this, the SDLP is consistent with the position it adopted and agreed with other parties in the Committee on the Preparation for Government and the Committee on the Programme for Government. In those Committees, we expressed our views on how negotiations with the Treasury might best be conducted and how input from the Irish Government should be maximised. Other parties disagreed. Perhaps, had our preferred tactics been adopted, there might have been a better outcome. Nevertheless, although different views on tactics were held, we did nothing to interfere with the negotiating stance taken by those who had to take the lead in the Northern Ireland interest.

We were not out to create problems or difficulties. The same is true of the submissions to the Varney Review. On the Committee for Enterprise, Trade and Investment, I ensured that nothing was done to queer the pitch for the Executive and their negotiating position on behalf of the broad regional interest.

It is with that record of responsibility on those issues that the SDLP insists that it has the absolute right to interrogate the details of the draft Budget. If we did not do so, we would not be doing our job. In looking at the draft Budget, we have the right to say that more money is needed up front for housing. I also ask the Minister of Finance and Personnel whether money emerging from the work of the capital realisation task force could go into the housing budget. Will he indicate whether there is a golden rule in relation to the capital realisation task force whereby moneys so realised should be spent only as capital and not on programmes?

Also, there is no mention in the Programme for Government or draft Budget about what will happen with respect to replacing the 11-plus — it is obvious that that will have consequences for the Budget. The draft Budget also includes allocations that presume significant efficiency savings in a number of Departments; however, we are not sure whether all those efficiency savings will be made. If they are not made, there will be a hole in the Budget. Therefore, at whose expense will that be? At one level, I hope that it will not be at the expense of the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Investment.

In circumstances in which Committees have not been fully informed about the full implications of those efficiency savings, Members would be wrong to nod through this draft Budget, on the blind, without asking any further questions.

In this House, Members have the right to raise issues, not just to praise Ministers.

Sue Ramsey (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. To set the context, I must repeat some of the comments that I made yesterday during the debate on the draft Programme for Government.

The Committee is now well into the process of responding to the draft Budget; however, as I said yesterday, that work will not be complete until tomorrow when the Committee will have an opportunity to discuss final matters with the Minister.

Following on from what Mark Durkan has said; this is a take-note debate on a draft Budget that has been published for consultation. It is important that our concerns as individual Members, Committee members, or Chairpersons should be raised as part of the consultation process.

When the Committee for Employment and Learning took evidence from departmental representatives on the draft Budget, the representatives expressed the view that they had achieved a mid-ranking result as regards CSR bid outcomes. They believe that they won on a number of issues, but that there were others in which they could have achieved better outcomes. The Committee’s overarching sense is that the allocation, while strong in places, will not be sufficient to meet the goals and targets in the draft Programme for Government for economic development.

In particular, although the Committee welcomes the emphasis on an issue that was to be delivered by the Department, there is concern that the moneys allocated to delivering the skills requirement could fall short of achieving the synergy that is necessary between business growth and skills development.

The Committee is concerned that unless the skills base exists to pre-empt, or meet, opportunities, investors could be frustrated and opportunities could be missed. A number of specific issues illustrate that concern. Yesterday, during the debate on the draft Programme for Government, I mentioned the discrepancy between the programme’s goals relating to R&D and innovation, and the apparent lack of resources — or at least, the lack of clarity on resources. The moneys available for innovation appear to be inadequate to advance the cutting-edge research in universities and in the private sector that the Executive tell us is required to bring about the transformation of our traditional economy into a knowledge-based one.

The Committee is aware that there are opportunities available, for example, via the Science Foundation Ireland, but they are narrow. The Committee urges the Executive to be creative in ensuring that investment in research and development is prioritised in the short and medium term to secure longer-term economic gains.

The commitment to PhDs in the Programme for Government is an unfunded bid. The Committee has heard that a proportion of the funding for innovation will be utilised to meet that goal, but we are concerned that that would spread an already thin amount of money even more thinly. The Department said that there is a small amount of unallocated money from bids that could be used for PhDs, and the Committee would welcome any movement in that direction.

Since devolution, much has been made of the need to re-skill the workforce. The recent Leitch Review sets the context and establishes challenging targets. However, a comprehensive spending review bid from the Department for foreign direct investment for the employer support programme for further education has not been funded. The Committee is concerned that we could be facing a serious gap in adult training and apprenticeships generally.

In addition, the critical sector initiatives, which is a programme designed specifically to pre-empt and prepare for foreign direct investment, has received only £9 million over three years and nothing in the first year. The Department’s original bid was for £24 million over three years, so less than 40% of the bid has been achieved. [Interruption.]

That was Sir Reg Empey thanking me for fighting his corner.

A major part of the Leitch Review focuses on essential skills. As I said yesterday, the Committee has grave concerns on the Budget allocation to deliver on this vital component. The Department has said that, to an extent, it speculated and overbid — which the Finance Minister will appreciate — which, looking closely at the numbers, may be the case. Nevertheless, the Department said that it believes that it has sufficient funding for essential skills. I will ensure that the Committee keeps this issue live on our work programme to assess whether that is indeed the case.

The Committee fully supports the Department’s bid to include information and communications technologies as a third essential skill. However, only £5 million of an £11·4 million bid has been received, which is approximately 40% over the next three years. The most worrying aspect is that there is not even a baseline budget dedicated to that issue and nothing has been secured for the first year. The Committee is concerned that the Department will struggle to deliver on that important programme.

In addition to those broad economic and skills-related themes, there are other draft Budget issues that I would like to raise.

Issues arose at Committee meetings relating to further and higher education organisations that the Department says are autonomous. Although the Committee accepts that universities and colleges should be commercially autonomous, it is concerned that the Department could be losing control of significant social goals. That may be an issue for the further education sector rather than the universities. For example, concession rates offered by colleges are an important way of facilitating training for particular groups, such as people on benefits, yet there is no consistency in applying concession rates. The Committee has a general concern that budgetary autonomy may not always work to deliver important goals related to social cohesion. The Committee wishes to see clear incentives for further and higher education institutions to tackle social inequalities, and we would like to see those evidenced soon.

Turning to issues in higher education, the Committee has concerns that potential changes and the widening of the upper and lower income thresholds would require an additional £18 million over the next three years. The Committee has been informed that bids to meet this need are unfunded. The Committee does not wish to see any detriment to local students’ maintenance arrangements and would ask that this situation be urgently addressed.

Sammy Wilson (DUP, East Antrim)

At least today’s debate has been a bit more measured than yesterday’s debate on the draft Programme for Government. I do not doubt that that is partly due to the fact that some of those who thought, yesterday, that they could be in Government and in opposition at the same time, now begin to realise the consequences of that ludicrous and contradictory stance. Perhaps that will enable us to have a more measured debate on the draft Budget.

I agree with the leader of the SDLP that the Assembly’s job in when looking at the draft Budget is not simply to rubber-stamp it and to say, “Yes, that is great, everything is OK.” The job is to interrogate the draft Budget. It is a draft Budget. There are opportunities to see whether some priorities should be dropped and other measures brought forward as new priorities; to see whether there are ways in which money could be better allocated; and to ask some pertinent questions that, undoubtedly, will be answered later by the Minister of Finance and Personnel.

However, some of the Members who have spoken today are still living off the old, tired arguments. They really think that today’s debate is an opportunity to simply hold out their hands and say that they want more, because they are afraid to take any hard decisions. There are those who still hark back to something for which they have been programmed. When I talk about someone who has been programmed, the first person whom I think of is the Member for East Antrim Mr Beggs, who shares my constituency. He was programmed a long time ago when someone mentioned an “economic package” to him. Ever since then, he has had a fixation with that economic package. On each occasion when the Minister of Finance and Personnel has been present in the Chamber — whether he has been talking about the draft Budget or not — Mr Beggs has mentioned the economic package. I suspect that he may even talk about it in his sleep; I do not know. [Interruption.]

I can assure Members that I do not know whether he speaks about it in his sleep. [Laughter.] I am saying that just in case rumours start.

There are two ways of judging whether the current package is better, and is an advance on what we had previously. The first way is to compare it with that which was received by previous Administrations. A number of Ulster Unionist Party Assembly Members have talked about the importance of the economic package. Let us consider the economic package that they delivered to the people of Northern Ireland. [Interruption.]

I am going to talk about the other way in a moment.

In order to be able to use the assets that Mr Beggs and Mr Basil McCrea have said should be ours of right, they had to agree, under the reinvestment and reform initiative (RRI), to put up the rates at three times the rate of inflation. That is the type of economic package that the members of the Ulster Unionist Party negotiated at a time — [Interruption.]

Just let me finish this first. [Interruption.]

For goodness’ sake, let me finish. The Treasury was flush with money, and spending across all the regions of the United Kingdom was going up at twice or three times the rate of inflation. That was the time when one would have thought that they could have squeezed the most out of the Government at Westminster. Yet, that did not happen. Nevertheless, during that period, before devolution was set up — and it has already been set out and, therefore, I am not going to go through it again — the end-year flexibility; the £100 million addition to the CSR moneys coming through; the release of asset sales; the access to end-year flexibility; and, on top of that, in the current CSR negotiations, the additional moneys that came through —

Roy Beggs (UUP, East Antrim)

Will the Member give way?

Sammy Wilson (DUP, East Antrim)

I will give way in a minute, when I have finished this.

On top of that, there are the additional moneys that came through the CSR period, the asset sales and the money under RRI.

All those things have added to the package. Is it as much as we wanted? It would never be as much as we would want. Is it more than the Ulster Unionist Party got? Yes — of course it is more than the Ulster Unionist Party got. That is how it should be judged.

Roy Beggs (UUP, East Antrim)

Does the Member accept that the borrowing that is proposed will avail of the same interest rates that were negotiated by the Ulster Unionist Party and the SDLP? Those were essentially Bank of England base rates, meaning that we would pay the same amount for the money that was borrowed from the Treasury.

Secondly, the other money that has been included in this Budget is the cashback from the sale of Civil Service properties under Workplace 2010. We do not yet know how much we will have to pay above the base rate for that money. Does the Member not accept that the people of Northern Ireland will pay more for that additional money than they would previously have paid?

Sammy Wilson (DUP, East Antrim)

Are we getting more money or are we not getting more money? The fact is that more resources are coming through. Furthermore, we will not have to impose additional taxation on people in Northern Ireland for the right to access that money.

Peter Robinson (DUP, Belfast East)

Just in case anyone ever watches what goes on in the Assembly and, if they do, is so demented that they believe the Member for East Antrim Mr Beggs, let us make it clear that under Workplace 2010, the £200 million will come directly to us. It is not being borrowed. It is going directly into the accounts of Northern Ireland plc to be used by us. It is money in our pockets that does not have to be paid back.

Sammy Wilson (DUP, East Antrim)

I appreciate the Minister of Finance and Personnel keeping me right on the matter; I did not know that.

Secondly, we are hearing a refinement on the argument about the size of the public sector. Yesterday, the Member for East Belfast Ms Purvis made an economically illiterate speech in which she seemed to say that government in Northern Ireland is not big enough and that she wanted bigger government. She should join the Khmer Rouge — “Pol Pot Purvis” might be a more appropriate name for her.

Dr Farry spoke the same language today. He tells us that it is not that the public sector is too big, but that the private sector is too small. He does not realise that in all economics such choices must be made. He should have attended my economics classes when I was teaching production possibility curves. I could have explained it to him in diagrammatic form.

The truth of the matter is that in order to redirect resources from one activity to another, there are choices to make. Those choices have to be made in this Budget. That is where the Member for South Belfast, the Minister of Health, Social Services and Public Safety, who intervened as a Back Bencher today, got it all wrong. He said that resources can be redirected, but he did not tell us how. He is right: we can move from one resource allocation to another, but he did not tell us who he wants to take the money from. He said only that the people of Northern Ireland deserve better.

The people of Northern Ireland deserve better than a Minister who is getting 51% of the increase of all the money coming into Northern Ireland over the next three years but who says that he cannot manage. The people of Northern Ireland deserve better than a Minister who, having been presented with a report saying that £400 million in savings can be made in his Department immediately, will not look for those savings.

The people of Northern Ireland deserve far better than a Minister whose Department absorbs the biggest part of the Northern Ireland Budget, yet who still holds out the begging bowl. They deserve far better than a Minister who wants to pillage everyone else’s budgets without dealing with his own. Perhaps the best thing that he could do to give the people of Northern Ireland a better deal is to resign and let the Member for North Down who wanted the Department in the first place take over.

Fra McCann (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. People have placed enormous faith in Members. They have elected us to bring an end to the nightmare years of direct rule, when Ministers with no interest in this place flew in, made decisions that changed our lives and flew out again. Those decisions were usually bad ones that left a legacy of neglect and underinvestment. Those Ministers also showed arrogance when dealing with locally elected politicians.

To put right the legacy with which we have been left will require our adopting an imaginative approach. Although there are many issues that can be considered absolute priorities, we will inevitably have to take responsibility for dealing with the burden with which we have been left.

When we examine the Assembly’s list of priorities, we all shout for our own corner. We have our own priorities, and we hope that the Minister will look favourably on our particular issue.

I argued in the House yesterday that the promises contained in the draft Programme for Government and draft investment strategy did not contain the resources necessary to deal with the housing crisis in the immediate or long term. I said that, over the next 15 years, a well-funded, well-resourced and well-thought-out strategy was required to allow us to plan the type of communities in which we want to live. It is not simply about building houses in isolation but about building communities, including mixed-tenure housing, with the infrastructure to develop and prosper. That requires a commitment from the Executive to plan, finance and develop the communities of the future. From the draft Budget to the final Budget, we will sow the seeds of the future. There is an expectation that we will deliver what is necessary to help the hard-pressed first-time buyers on to the property ladder through creating an effective affordability sector.

We must fulfil our promises of delivering for the social-housing sector, which has been decimated over the years. Some parts of the North have had no new social housing in many years. It is essential that at least 2,500 new homes be built every year for the foreseeable future in order to deal with the legacy of neglect. In 1971, the Housing Executive built 9,500 houses, yet the Minister for Social Development told us that no new social housing may be built next year.

Rather than blame everyone else, the Minister for Social Development must trawl her own budget to ensure that she maximises her resources. She must ensure that there is no wastage in her Department. She is the Minister; she must show the leadership that comes with her title rather than place the blame elsewhere for the problems that fall within her remit. That is what leadership is about.

The Minister of Finance and Personnel mentioned yesterday that additional resources that the Minister for Social Development has at hand would allow her to deal with some of the issues facing her Department. Will Minister of Finance and Personnel comment further on that?

I deal with people who have been in hostels for years. They have little prospect of being housed, because they happen to live in areas of high demand. The housing selection scheme cannot help them, because they need 180 points or more to compete with another 10 people for the same two-bedroom house. Do we tell those people that we are sorry, but we do not have the money to build them a home? What about elderly people who live in a flat or house that is totally unsuited to their needs, or people with disabilities who need their homes specially adapted? The social-development budget has been slashed due to lack of funding. Do we tell those people that we are sorry, but we cannot help them? Real people are being affected by the decisions that we make. That is the harsh reality of setting budgets. The Housing Executive has told us —

Sammy Wilson (DUP, East Antrim)

Will the Member give way?

Fra McCann (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

Go ahead.

Sammy Wilson (DUP, East Antrim)

Cash and land is being made available to the Minister for Social Development, but she has not even looked at the cash assets of many housing associations. She has given me 15 reasons why she cannot touch them but not one reason why she can. If she added all those sources of money together, the housing programme could be delivered.

Fra McCann (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

That is one of the difficulties that we face. The Minister for Social Development has been blaming everyone else, instead of trying to deal with the situation.

Sammy, it is a fact of life that, as well as that money, at least another £300 million a year would be needed to start to deal with the severe housing crisis. A mixture of both is required. Obviously, assets exist, but a new injection of resources and finance is needed to deal with the situation.

We have been told by the Housing Executive and the Minister for Social Development that the adaptations programme is another programme that will be impacted on because there is no new money to support it. Could the Minister of Finance and Personnel please comment on that?

The community sector has always been the victim of cuts at Budget time. Given that that sector provides a much-needed service in the community and shows huge commitment and dedication to the most deprived areas of the North, it is shameful that, when money becomes scarce, the community sector is the first to suffer as a result of departmental cuts. Such cuts have a knock-on effect on the community that the sector serves. As ever, it is the weakest in the community who ultimately pay the price.

We owe a debt of gratitude to the community sector; it runs the youth clubs, the crèches, the community houses, the outreach programmes, services for the old and the young, to name but a few. We should ensure that funding for such projects continues rather than allow them to become the victims of cutbacks.

Iris Robinson (DUP, Strangford)

I am not sure whether Mr McGimpsey spoke as an ordinary MLA or as a Minister when he delivered his speech on health, but I regret that I missed it. I had a meeting with a group of women from the Rape Crisis and Sexual Abuse Centre in Belfast. That group of ladies require immediate funding if their organisation is to survive; it is in crisis. It provides a unique service to all women, and, indeed men, across Northern Ireland who experience rape, abuse or sexual violence in their lifetime.

Each year, the centre deals with approximately 6,000 calls — to and from clients — about sexual violence and abuse. Some 55% of the centre’s clients have experienced child sexual abuse. Each year, nearly 2,000 new clients contact the centre, and nearly half of them will visit the centre at least once. The centre requires mainstream funding, and it is essential that the Rape Crisis and Sexual Abuse Centre be allowed to continue its important work of providing care for those who are in deep crisis. That work cuts across many departments and areas, including health, education and social development, and I appeal for that money to be found in the various Departments, if at all possible.

As party spokesperson on health, the bulk of my remarks will refer to the health sector. Although I welcome the strong economic focus in the draft Programme for Government and draft Budget, I am also encouraged that health has obtained such a large slice of the overall resource cake. I am keen to see the maximum amount of resources directed towards health, and no doubt we could always make use of more. However, it is clear from the proportion of the Budget that has been allocated to health and social services — about half of the resources available — that a strong emphasis has been placed on health.

I hear the calls for greater allocations for social housing and other worthy causes. I recognise the merit of those calls, but I hope that that will not lead to the draft Budget’s percentage of spend on health being reduced in the final Budget.

I want to see a better Health Service, not an increas­ingly expensive one. Improving productivity is the key and will ensure that the public get the maximum out of the service for the money going into it.

Fra McCann (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

I appreciate and understand everything that the Member has said. However, does she not also agree that housing is a cross-cutting issue? If people do not have a house, it impacts on their health, education and employment possibilities. A holistic approach is needed to deal with this matter.

Iris Robinson (DUP, Strangford)

I thank the Member for his intervention, and I could not agree more that health is not simply a stand-alone issue. It is a cross-sectoral issue, which involves other Departments and impacts on recreation and leisure, and so on. I will come to that point if I am allowed to move on.

Transformation, which would increase productivity, cannot be put off indefinitely. Radical reform is essential. There must be innovation and incentives. The resignation of David Sissling, chief executive designate of the new health authority, is exactly the sort of development of which I have been fearful. It was a coup for Northern Ireland to have attracted someone of David Sissling’s calibre to the local Health Service. However, it was inevitable that he would not hang around forever while the Minister delayed his getting on with his work. I fear that unless there is swift progress on health reform, others could follow Mr Sissling. General practitioners and other health professionals who are involved in local commissioning groups are also being denied the opportunity to get on with their work.

I have a strong interest in mental-health issues, as do other members of the Health Committee. The Committee is determined to see the recommendations of the Bamford Review of Mental Health and Learning Disability implemented quickly. The Committee was somewhat surprised to learn that the Minister made one upfront bid for mental health to DFP, for £12 million, and then mental health did not feature again until his seventeenth bid. Even more surprisingly, some of the plans contained in the two bids, referred to as “Bamford 1” and “Bamford 2”, appear to have little to do with the vision and thrust of the Bamford Review. The Bamford Review was about redirecting resources from the acute sector into the community. However, the bids included the building of new facilities and autism issues, despite the fact that the autism lobby has argued strongly that autism should be considered separate and distinct from mental health and learning disability.

Incidentally, it has proved difficult for Committee members to obtain information on figures. Details of the figures have been slow to come — emerging in just a trickle. In response to the gentleman from East Antrim, the Committee has not been able to obtain comparable figures or historic evidence of how bids have been pitched, or of the basis on which that was done. Perhaps he will take the time to seek that information from his colleague, who is the Minister at fault, instead of sniping at other Department’s Ministers.

Roy Beggs (UUP, East Antrim)

Will the Member give way?

Iris Robinson (DUP, Strangford)

No, I will not give way. The Member has spoken enough.

It is essential that mental health feature prominently in new service development. The many millions that have already been devoted to mental health in the draft Budget, when added to the extra funding, must be channelled towards the redirection of services.

Another concern is mental-health provision for the Province’s prisoners. The Assembly deserves answers on how that is to be funded, now that funding has been transferred from the Northern Ireland Office to the Health Department. There is already a huge need for mental-health resources without prison services having to be funded from the same pot.

Peter Robinson (DUP, Belfast East)

On a point of order, Mr Speaker. Since the Chairman of the Health Committee got up to speak, the Member for Strangford Mr McNarry has been sitting having a conversation with his back to the Chamber. Clearly, he wants to show his disrespect for the Member who is speaking. That should not be allowed in the Chamber.

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

I remind all Members to have respect for one another in the Chamber, whether they are speaking or sitting.

Roy Beggs (UUP, East Antrim)

On a point of order, Mr Speaker. Do you agree that it is appropriate that Members should speak through the Chair, rather than directly to other Members?

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

I have already made that point. The Member did speak through the Chair.

I ask Mrs Robinson to continue.

Iris Robinson (DUP, Strangford)

I must say that the Assembly becomes more and more like a pantomime, Mr Speaker. However, what can one expect?

I want to know whether additional money has been resourced — [Interruption.]

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

Order. The Member has the Floor. Let us have some respect. [Interruption.]

I have called for order. The Member may continue.

Iris Robinson (DUP, Strangford)

For the third time, Mr Speaker, I want to ascertain whether the Northern Ireland Office will be providing the Health Department with the additional money that is necessary for the well-being and mental health of prisoners as part of the holistic approach to mental health.

Mental health must be considered holistically, and responsibility for it lies with other Departments as well as the Department of Health, Social Services and Public Safety. The Department of Education can play a role, particularly in relation to the promotion of good mental health and the delivery of aspects of the Bamford Review recommendations on child and adolescent mental health. Many other sectors can play a role in improving the overall well-being of the community. I welcome the investment from the Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure to promote leisure and exercise. That shows the potential that can be gained from having more co-ordinated government.

Over the weekend, I was surprised to hear the Health Minister seek to blame the draft Budget for the delay in building the new women’s and children’s hospital in Belfast. It was only last week at a draft Budget briefing that his departmental officials informed the Committee for Health, Social Services and Public Safety that their Department had done well in respect of the capital allocations that it had received in the draft Budget. Who does one believe? With regard to the children’s and women’s hospital, it remains to be seen how far up the Minister’s priority list that is, and whether there are other projects that he would like to see completed first. Given that the Jubilee Maternity Hospital on the Belfast City Hospital site was forced to close, it is essential that the new regional centre be delivered promptly.

Mr Speaker, will I be allowed extra time because of the interference during my contribution?

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

No.

Iris Robinson (DUP, Strangford)

The Health Committee was also interested to learn that the departmental officials were going to reassess some of the bids that were made to the Department of Finance and Personnel, which were originally referred to as inescapable or unavoidable. We have been informed by the Department of Health that some of their inescapables may not have been inescapable. Strange though that may appear, it will at least allow more funding to be made available for new service development than had been indicated, and that will be welcomed by everyone. It would be welcome if that funding could be utilised for mental health.

David McNarry (UUP, Strangford)

I shall speak in a personal capacity, before moving on to business relating to the Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure. This is a debate; it is what Members do in the Chamber. Yesterday, we had a debate — opinions were offered, and most were respectfully listened to. The Assembly reached a decision by a democratic vote, but the Finance Minister then rode in with a spurious points of order, which was not a point of order. The Robinsons are not having much success with point of order lately. Last night’s point of order was used to issue a warning or a veiled threat. The timing and the intention of that have not been lost on the Ulster Unionist Party.

Yesterday, almost every Department was criticised over the draft Programme for Government — and if you think differently, read Hansard. However, following the debate, there was no recognition of what was said during it; instead, we received a Darth Vader impression, warning that the Executive will fall without a Programme for Government. Now try that on, and it would be a signal to the Committees and to the House to pack up and go back to our constituency offices because remote control has returned, and all decision making will begin and end with the Executive — even draft consultative issues are not to be discussed in case anyone responds with constructive opposition.

Last night’s intervention came from a Member who, only a while ago, was not even going to enter an Executive, let alone an Executive with terrorists. However, only a short time ago, after claiming the credit for first mooting the idea of the need for a financial package in Dublin, the Member said that an adequate financial package was a necessary precondition for any restoration of devolution. That view was backed to the hilt by the Chairman of the Committee for Finance and Personnel, Mr McLaughlin, who said that the Government should put their money where their mouth is and give us the chance to deliver a Programme for Government, and not destroy our work before we start.

In February of this year, the ‘News Letter’ quoted a DUP source as saying that the financial package was a “deal breaker”, and that if the money for devolution was not right, there would be no Government. The source also stated that there was no point in setting up a Government to fall, and that if problems with water rates, hospitals, education, and roads were to be truly addressed, that could only be done properly with the appropriate financial package.

I have a litany of DUP and Sinn Féin statements and promises, but I cannot find evidence that either party has lived up to any of them. Are Members here to consult, through positive debate, on the draft Budget, or is this a sitting that is likely to decide the future of the Executive?

Of course it is not, because it is a draft Budget, and control freakery and ministerial codes cannot be used to restrict any Member from voicing his or her opinion in the Assembly. Ulster Unionists are not in a coalition: we are in an Executive as of right. Yesterday —

Jeffrey M. Donaldson (DUP, Lagan Valley)

The Ulster Unionists are part of a mandatory coalition.

David McNarry (UUP, Strangford)

Mandatory coalitions: now someone is trying to — [Interruption.]

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

Order. The Member has the Floor.

David McNarry (UUP, Strangford)

Yesterday, the First Minster told the House that the draft Programme for Government will be subjected to lengthy and full consultation. In contrast to other members of his party, he did not address the debate — amid the voices of argued opposition — from a position that the draft Programme for Government was not a draft at all.

Is the Minister of Finance and Personnel now stating that the full import of opposing views will not be considered as part of the consultation process? The First Minister’s approach to the debate was fair and balanced. He told Members of his vision, and he performed with the dignity that one associates with his high office. I suspect that, in marked contrast, the Minister of Finance and Personnel may be unable to match yesterday’s performance by the First Minister, which would be regrettable.

However, no one who spoke in today’s debate wanted to end up on the receiving end of personal abuse. The point is that the Ulster Unionist Party wants to analyse the draft Budget. We are striving to help by improving the draft Budget and making it more acceptable. I understand and appreciate the attitude of the DUP/Sinn Féin coalition that Departments must make do with what they have been allocated. However, the DUP and Sinn Féin have ownership of that comment, not the UUP. It will be up to them to explain why they did not tell the electorate that they would have to make do with much less than the minimum that people would have expected or are likely to tolerate. Let us see how it all works out.

From this point on, I am speaking on behalf of the Committee for Culture, Arts and Leisure. The Committee carefully considered the allocations to the Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure in the draft Budget, and it has several serious concerns, because it has received no information on how the allocations to arts, sports, and so forth, will be spent. It is particularly difficult for the Committee to comment constructively on the draft Budget when it does not know which projects will be funded and which will not.

Overall, the draft Budget’s allocation to the Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure is small and inadequate. DCAL suffers from the legacy that Government have consistently undervalued the contribution that culture, arts and leisure makes to all sectors of society. [Interruption.]

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

Order.

David McNarry (UUP, Strangford)

The Committee calls for an increase across the board in the Department’s budget.

The Committee is disappointed that the draft Budget does not bridge the gap in arts funding with the rest of the United Kingdom. I reiterate that I am speaking on behalf of the Committee, whose report I have been asked to deliver to the House. [Interruption.]

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

Order, Members, please.

Alex Attwood (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast West)

On a point of order, Mr Speaker. In the past two minutes of the debate, there have been four utterances from Mr Donaldson, three from Mr Sammy Wilson, three from Mr Robinson — [Interruption.]

I have the Floor, because I am making a point of order. [Interruption.]

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

Order.

Alex Attwood (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast West)

In the past two minutes, there have been utterances from four DUP Members on 10 different occasions —

Sammy Wilson (DUP, East Antrim)

He only mentioned three of us.

Alex Attwood (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast West)

On 10 different occasions —

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

Order.

Alex Attwood (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast West)

Mr Speaker, on one occasion when you sat down after asking for order, Sammy Wilson immediately uttered more comments in the direction of the Member who was speaking. Given the catalogue of outbursts, mutterings and various other comments, I suggest that some Members need to learn the standards of the House.

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

Order. I have continually said that debates will, on occasions, raise issues. That is understandable, as this is a debating Chamber. However, I remind Members to have respect for one another. That is vital.

David McNarry (UUP, Strangford)

The Committee is disappointed that the draft Budget does not bridge the gap in per capita funding for the arts with the rest of the United Kingdom — Northern Ireland receives substantially less, per head of the population, than other United Kingdom regions. The Committee believes that that will make life very difficult for the Arts Council in its distribution of limited funding. The Arts Council has raised a concern that the draft Budget settlement for the arts will put as many as 200 full-time and part-time jobs at risk. Over 25,000 participants from across Northern Ireland may be denied access to outreach activities and engagements with the arts. That must be looked at.

The Committee is also concerned about the effect that the loss of the children’s and young people’s fund will have on the creative learning centres in Londonderry and Belfast. The children’s fund currently provides those centres with 50% of their funding. The centres are involved in huge projects that make a difference in their communities. Are we going to tell those groups to forget about it, make all their staff redundant and start afresh? Surely we cannot allow that to happen.

The Committee is concerned that the Department will not be able to deliver on its targets for increasing the participation of young people in sport. Although it is at a local level that young people participate in sport, there is no provision for a capital spend on community-based infrastructure. Therefore, the Committee is more than disappointed that there has not been more emphasis put on community sport and assistance for local sports clubs in the ongoing work that they do with young people.

The Minister has allocated capital funding to elite facilities, such as the 50-metre swimming pool and the multi-sports stadium, with the intention that they will be used in connection with the 2012 Olympics. However, the Committee has deep concerns about the lasting legacy that the Olympic Games will give Northern Ireland. What does “a lasting legacy” mean? The Committee asks the Sports Minister and the Finance Minister whether Northern Ireland will have a multi-sports stadium by 2012.

Just over half of the DCAL budget will be spent on libraries and museums — almost twice the amount that will be spent on sport and the arts. The Minister has previously explained that arts and sports are lucky as they can rely on large numbers of volunteers, whereas libraries and museums require paid staff. The Committee does not accept that as an argument for underfunding in sport and the arts. Volunteers should not be treated as poor relations or taken for granted.

The Committee welcomes the £21 million that is to be allocated to the building of a new home for the Public Record Office (PRONI). Given its location in the Titanic Quarter, there is significant tourism potential from people who come to Northern Ireland to investigate their roots. That spend will contribute to the wider economy. However, the Committee recommends that there be additional funding to enhance the visitor experience at PRONI.

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

I have listened to what the Member has said, and I am encouraged. Given that one of his colleagues has asked for an extra £600 million, can the Member identify where we can get additional funds? I think that if money were taken from the Health budget and put towards recreation, for example, further savings could be made in health. Will the Member support that?

David McNarry (UUP, Strangford)

I am sure that if the Minister had been in the House yesterday — maybe he was, but did not hear me — he would know that I referred to that very succinctly, in that it is a wish of the Committee, and he should know that from the Committee —

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

The Member’s time is up.