Northern Ireland Assembly, 8 December 2008

388 contributions from 67 members. The official report.

Speaker’s Business

Francie Molloy (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

Order. The Speaker has asked me to advise the House that he will be absent from today’s proceedings as he is attending a meeting of Presiding Officers in Cardiff.

Executive Committee Business

Caitriona Ruane (Sinn Féin, South Down)

I beg to move

That Standing Orders 10(2) to 10(4), inclusive, be suspended for 8 December 2008.

Francie Molloy (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

Before I put the Question, I remind Members that this motion requires cross-community support.

Question put and agreed to.

Resolved (with cross-community support):

That Standing Orders 10(2) to 10(4), inclusive, be suspended for 8 December 2008.

Francie Molloy (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

As the motion has been agreed, today’s sitting may go beyond 7.00 pm, if required.

Caitriona Ruane (Sinn Féin, South Down)

Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. I beg to move

That the Second Stage of the Education Bill [NIA 3/08] be agreed.

Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. Is mian liom a thairiscint go gcomhaontaítear an Dara Céim den Bhille Oideachais 2008.

I welcome the opportunity to open the debate on the Education Bill. It is the first of two Bills that together comprise the most significant legislative programme in education for many years. I know that the Assembly will take a keen interest in the proposals, and I look forward to a stimulating debate.

Before outlining the scope and general principles of the Bill, I will set it in context by reminding Members of the underlying policy intentions. No one could doubt the fundamental importance of our education system, but it is worth reminding ourselves of its core purpose as set out in the Bill. Education is about more than schooling: its aim is to contribute to the spiritual, cultural, social, intellectual and physical development of children and young people, and of the community at large, and to build confident, creative citizens.

The education system embraces children and young people from birth to the age of 19 and beyond through the provision of services as diverse as Sure Start schemes, schools and youth clubs. As I said in the House last week, it is that public service, more than any other, which has the potential to shape and guide the development and life chances of young people, to build strong cohesive communities, to drive and fuel the economy, and to build respectful and active citizens.

Is í earnáil an oideachais an dara clár is mó caiteachais phoiblí atá againn anseo, le buiséad de bhreis agus £2 billiún gach uile bhliain. .

Education is the second largest public expenditure programme here, with a budget of more than £2 billion each year. It is delivered by nine statutory organisations, more than 1,050 schools, over 200 early-years providers, over 2,000 youth organisations, more than 50,000 staff, many non-governmental organisations, and thousands of volunteers who serve in a range of roles, from school governors to youth-group leaders.

The education system is not merely a significant public service, but a precious resource. It is right, therefore, that the proposed reforms will be scrutinised and debated thoroughly today. The starting point should be the purpose of those reforms.

My aim is not merely to streamline administration or to reduce bureaucracy, but to have a more effective education system, with effectiveness measured in the terms that matter most to children and parents: a broad education system, educational attainment and the fulfillment of potential. In order to achieve that, we need better planning of the education estate and delivery of the curriculum; better support services for schools and other education providers; more local delivery of services, but within a consistent policy framework; and freedom for school leaders to manage and innovate with clear accountability for outcomes.

Two themes are central to achieving that, and which run throughout the Bill: new structures and new relationships. In reforming the structures, let me make it clear that the deficiencies are in the current roles and arrangement of the organisations, not the people who work in them. Over the past 35 years, many thousands of staff have served with dedication and distinction in the various education organisations, often in very difficult circumstances. They deserve recognition and appreciation for all that they have striven to achieve. However, the structures have become obsolete. Organisations, many of which were established as a temporary measure in the early 1970s, have been allowed to linger for far longer than they ought to have been. New organisations have been grafted onto the system, but not in a coherent way.

The educational challenges have changed beyond all recognition since then, as have the needs of children and young people. However, the education system is still largely based on a 35-year-old temporary solution. Devolution and the new institutions present an opportunity for a new approach that is fit for current needs.

Is léir go bhfuil géarghá le hathruithe san earnáil oideachais. Ar an 25ú lá de mhí na Samhna leag mé béim ar an ngá práinneach le hathchóiriú chun dul i ngleic le tearcghnóthachtáil oideachais agus neamhionannas, agus ba mhaith liom béim a leagan ar an bpointe sin arís eile.

The educational case for change is clear. On 25 November, I emphasised the urgent need for reform in order to tackle education underachievement and inequality, and I repeat that call today. The current fragmented system of education has manifestly failed to tackle those issues and cannot be allowed to continue.

How can we justify five different approaches to education delivery, in everything from special education to fees for music tuition? How can we accept the complex variety of relationships between schools and support bodies? How can we go forward when there is no clear focus on planning the estate or on ensuring that every school is a good school? How can staff work in a system in which accountability is confused and opaque? How can there be equality when the services that children and parents receive are determined by where they live, not by what they need?

When I spoke in the Assembly two weeks ago, I gave figures that showed clearly that our education system is failing many of our most vulnerable young people, such as those from working-class communities, Travellers, ethnic minorities, children with disabilities, school-age mothers and carers, looked-after children, victims of violence — particularly those who suffer as a result of violence inside and outside the home — and victims of homophobic and other forms of bullying.

I will not repeat all those figures, but one may illustrate better than any other the urgent need for reform. The most common measure of a school’s performance is its pupils’ achievement of five good GCSEs, which is the level of qualification that is a gateway to higher education and often to employment. The latest figures for non-grammar schools show that 45% — 6,844 children — achieved that goal. While some improvement is evident and welcome, that figure shows just how far we still need to go.

Too many young people do not get what they need from education, and every part of our education system needs to do better. Closer scrutiny of that headline figure reveals a variation of results across our fragmented education system, pointing to the need for change. In Catholic-managed, non-selective schools, almost 49% of pupils — 3,510 children — gained five good GCSEs. In controlled, non-selective schools that figure was 41%, which represents 3,334 children.

A gap of 8% is simply unacceptable and is clear evidence that the current system cannot deal effectively with underperformance. Why are schools in one sector consistently outperforming those in another? At this point, I reiterate that there is no room for complacency in any sector. The only possible conclusion that can be drawn is that good practice does not cross organisational and sectoral boundaries. We need a single organisation that is responsible for raising standards in every school in every sector, and in doing so, that organisation must be clearly accountable to me and to the Assembly. I therefore propose to create such an organisation.

Make no mistake: the educational case for change is paramount, but the financial case is also compelling. That is reflected in the business case for the reforms. I have asked for copies of that business case to be placed on my Department’s website and in the Assembly Library. The business case shows clearly that by the third year in the first phase of the reform, it will be possible to redirect £20 million a year from administration to front-line services. That is not an insignificant amount. In subsequent phases, service delivery can be improved radically in a way that will release even further savings in order to enhance the quality of services that are available to schools, youth services and non-governmental organisations.

To put that in context, the overall quantum of savings would cover the cost of building three new primary schools and one new post-primary school every year. It would also cover the cost of around 700 newly qualified teachers every year or it would fund the Youth Service capital building programme four times over. I have said that our education system is a precious resource. It is incumbent on me and us all to do everything that we can to ensure that the most effective use is made of every penny that is available to education for the benefit of all our children and young people.

I am confident that the job reductions that will free up resources can be achieved through voluntary redundancies and early retirement in managerial and administrative posts. Every effort will be made to avoid compulsory redundancy. Front-line services will not be cut, and the majority of staff who wish to play a role in the new organisation will be able to do so.

A LeasCheann Comhairle, cé go bhfuil athrú eagraíochtúil iontach tábhachtach, caithfear caidrimh nua agus modhanna nua oibre laistigh d’earnáil an oideachais bheith ann freisin.

Although organisational change is important, it must be accompanied by new relationships and ways of working within education. Let me be absolutely clear: the education and skills authority (ESA) will not be a bigger education and library board — it will be a new and different type of organisation, with a new and different role.

Schools, other education providers and children will be at the heart of the new arrangements. The education and skills authority will be a single, decentralised organisation that is fit for purpose, equipped to help, support and, where necessary, challenge schools in the pursuit of improved standards and in closing the attainment gap.

As part of my considerations on the establishment of the education and skills authority, I will take into account the Bain Report on decentralisation of public-sector jobs, and will seek to locate the education and skills authority’s headquarters in line with those recommendations.

There is already plenty of evidence on the characteristics of successful schools. Those schools tend to have strong, effective leadership from their boards of governors and senior management teams; a strong sense of belonging and accountability in respect of the pupils, parents and communities that they serve; an ethos that pupils, parents, staff and governors support; and the autonomy and support that they need to manage their own day-to-day affairs.

The education and skills authority must foster and develop that approach for all schools. There must be a move away from the command-and-control approach that is all too prevalent in education. Instead, school leaders will be empowered to lead, manage and innovate; be supported to deliver; be held to account for their performance; and be challenged, where necessary.

Is iad seo na tréithe a bhaineann le córas oideachais atá nua-aimseartha agus éifeachtach, agus creidim gurb iad na tréithe seo na tréithe ar ceart do thuismitheoirí agus do dhaoine óga bheith ag dúil leo.

Those are the characteristics of a modern, effective education system. I believe that parents and young people have the right to expect those characteristics to prevail in schools.

A LeasCheann Comhairle. I turn now to the legislation. The Bill that is before the Assembly contains a range of provisions to make the vision that I have described a reality. I will explain the principal provisions in broad terms. First, the Bill captures in legislation the visions and values for education. It links them directly with general duties of my Department and the education and skills authority that are centred on children and young people’s development.

Secondly, the Bill will establish the education and skills authority, with the following core functions: planning education; introducing, for the first time, a co-ordinated approach to the education estate and curriculum throughout all sectors and providers; supporting education, with clear statutory duties on the education and skills authority to support schools and boards of governors; challenging education, through setting out clear statutory responsibilities for my Department, the education and skills authority and boards of governors; and employing staff, through establishing the ESA as the employer of all staff in all grant-aided schools in order to allow for a better planned and co-ordinated education workforce.

As an organisation, the ESA will be founded on democratic accountability. The majority of its members will be local councillors. Its objective is effective, responsible local delivery of services within a consistent policy framework. The ESA must be a regional organisation and have a strong local presence and focus on local delivery. Local managers and delivery units will have the freedom to respond to specific local circumstances and need. They will be sensitive to and receive input from local committees that comprise, among others, several elected representatives.

The Bill also contains provisions to dissolve existing statutory organisations and to transfer their staff, assets and liabilities to the education and skills authority. Those provisions are consistent with guiding principles from the Public Service Commission and with the review of public administration in other areas.

Tugann an Bille foráil d’aistriú réimse feidhmeanna ó eagraíochtaí atá ann faoi láthair chuig an údarás um oideachas agus scileanna; lena n-áirítear ceapadh ghobharnóirí scoile, soláthar sheirbhís leabharlainne na scoileanna agus araile.

The Bill also provides for the transfer of a range of functions from current organisations to the education and skills authority, including, for example, appointment of school governors; provision of the school library service; and raising standards. Building a broad curriculum is at the heart of the Bill, which places clear statutory duties on my Department, the ESA and schools. In addition, it provides for more effective education inspection arrangements in order to ensure that there will be a clear evidence base from which to celebrate success and challenge underachievement.

The Bill also seeks to strengthen and underpin child protection arrangements in education. That will ensure consistency and clarity of roles and responsibilities across the entire education sector and provide for strong powers to intervene, where necessary, to protect children. Further provisions will place the funding of early-years services in education on a formal statutory footing for the first time.

The Bill aims to maximise the autonomy of schools by, for example, giving them the authority to draw up the governance and employment arrangements that they will operate. In relation to the curriculum, the Bill will make my Department responsible for accrediting qualifications and approving courses of education.

A LeasCheann Comhairle, is é seo an chéad Bhille oideachais a cuireadh os comhair an Tionóil ó athbhunaíodh an cineachadh, agus is é an reachtaíocht oideachais is tábhachtaí é le glúin anuas.

This is the first education Bill to come before the Assembly since the restoration of devolution and the new institutions. It is the most important education legislation in a generation, and it will lay the foundations for a new approach to education. It is an approach that is based on the recognition of diversity, the promotion of equality and the achievement of high standards. It is an approach in which we aim to make every school a good school and support every learner to achieve her or his full potential. It is an approach in which every governor, principal, member of staff and child feels valued for what they do and empowered and supported to do it.

It is a system in which leadership and innovation is encouraged, success is celebrated and underperformance is challenged. It is an education system that will put the child at the centre. Molaim an Bille don Tionól. I commend the Bill to the Assembly.

Mervyn Storey (DUP, North Antrim)

I will speak first as the Chairperson of the Committee for Education, and then I will make some comments as the DUP’s spokesman for education.

The Committee has carried out considerable scrutiny on the underlying policies of the Bill. On 26 November 2008, the Committee heard from senior departmental officials in respect of some of its outstanding concerns on a number of policy issues. Certain members of the Committee, including me, have significant concerns about several aspects of, what I will call, the first Education Bill. Some of those aspects will impact on the second education Bill, and I understand that the aspiration is for that Bill to be introduced to the Assembly before the summer of 2009.

The Committee considers it important for its concerns to be brought to Members’ attention and be placed on the record at this stage. The first concern is the timing of the two Bills. The Minister regards them as a single legislative programme and as two Acts that are intimately linked. However, her proposed timescale for progressing the Bills through the Assembly places the first on the statute book before the 2009 summer recess and the second on the statute book by 1 January 2010, if possible, but certainly no later than 1 April 2010.

However, the Minister’s plan is for the substantive provisions of the first Act to commence on 1 January 2010 and for the provisions of the second Act, if completed, to commence on that date also. The Committee will be questioning senior departmental officials on that and on other related matters on Wednesday.

One of the Committee’s key concerns is whether the proposed education and skills authority will actually deliver local services to schools. The Committee needs clarity on the make-up, role and powers of proposed local committees and how those will relate to local managers of the education skills authority. The Committee also needs clarity on the functions of the new education and skills authority’s sectoral non-statutory organisations. The Committee considers that their precise role and functions need to be clarified. In particular, the Committee needs to examine the body that will represent the controlled-schools sector, because it will contain a diverse range of interests.

The Committee received a paper on that topic recently, but no consultation has taken place with stakeholders to date. The Committee will scrutinise that matter carefully.

Area-based planning of the future schools estate is another key area. Based on the Committee’s scrutiny to date, it appears that, despite the proposed legislation, the Department cannot — or will not — stop individual school sector development proposals, which are contrary to the principles of holistic area-based planning frameworks, for many years. That issue must be addressed.

The Bill makes the education and skills authority the single employing authority for teachers in grant-aided schools. The Governing Bodies Association, which represents 52 voluntary grammar schools, opposes the proposals, which it believes diminish its autonomy and destroy the voluntary principle and the diversity of voluntary grammar schools. That issue must be addressed. The education and skills authority’s single-employer status should facilitate wider redeploy­ment of teachers than is the case at present. However, the exemption of teacher recruitment from fair employment legislation militates against that notion. The Committee has confirmed that the underlying policy on teachers’ exemption rests with the Department of Education. That issue must be addressed sooner rather than later.

The Department’s policy paper on the ownership of controlled schools has recently arrived with the Committee and will require consultation with relevant stakeholders. The Committee needs to scrutinise that important area carefully. Furthermore, all school sectors must address complex issues on the dispersal or disposal of schools and arrangements for the distribution and use of surplus funds and proceeds of the sales of assets. Again, the Committee will scrutinise that area in detail.

The Committee is awaiting information on the second-tier directorate structure proposed for the education and skills authority. Apart from the costs, that raises issues on the roles and responsibilities of each director. For example, the Committee sought clarity on the role of the director of children’s services, queried how that post will complement the work of key partners in the Department of Health, Social Services and Public Safety, the Department for Social Development and the PSNI, and questioned how it will integrate children’s services. The Minister referred to the fact that £50 million has been allocated to setting up the education and skills authority and outlined the projected savings of £20 million in year three. The Committee hopes to receive more detail on that matter and raise questions on those important issues.

I will now speak as a private Member and as the DUP education spokesperson, which will allow me more latitude and freedom. However, I am not constrained by the Tory Whip — I have stayed with the DUP Whip.

As I said in the House previously, the Bill should not be considered a blank cheque or a rubber-stamp exercise. During recent months, much has been said about the relevance of the Assembly and the relevance of devolution. If devolution is to be a success, it is essential that Committees take their responsibilities and scrutiny roles seriously.

The legislation must be scrutinised, rather than simply undergoing a rubber-stamping exercise.

I wish to place on record, not only as Chairperson of the Committee for Education, but as a member of that Committee — and I believe that I can speak on behalf of all members of the Committee on this issue — that we will dedicate ourselves and our work to ensuring that the legislation does what it is says on the tin: that it can deliver what the Minister says it can; and that it does deliver for our children and for the best of the education system.

There are a number of serious issues with which we wish to deal as the Bill is scrutinised by the Committee for Education. The single employing authority, for example, is an issue on which, I believe, the Minister has already received correspondence — and not from me, but from senior churchmen in Northern Ireland. The Minister has been very keen in recent days to take advice from leading churchmen — perhaps she will consider the advice of the bishop who wrote to her on the issue of a single employing authority. One of my colleagues will deal with that issue in more detail later.

With regard to an education advisory forum — do we really need a civic forum for education? Do we need a body that will produce reports and not have any power to deliver on those issues — as was the case with the Civic Forum? I think that the jury is out on that one, but our decision is, I believe, already very clear: that can add no value to the Bill.

On the subject of area-based planning, there is an issue about whether that should be coterminous with the new council boundaries, and what role there will be for local learning partnerships. Over recent weeks and months, we had the opportunity to see the value of learning communities — there are many in Northern Ireland that are already delivering good, tangible outcomes for education. There are concerns that there should be a holistic approach, that there should be coterminosity with the new council boundaries, and that the role of local learning partnerships is clearly identified.

The Bill proposes the establishment of sectoral support organisations. Assurances are needed that those organisations do not expand and develop and take on a life of their own. How often have we seen such an organisation going beyond the bounds of what it was originally intended to deliver, as was the case with one of the organisations that is to be dismantled. That is an issue on which we need to have a very clear view.

There must be clarity that there will be no dilution of the position of school governors, and I will come back to that issue in a moment. On the issue of the examinations function, there are concerns that there could be a conflict of interest if ESA was responsible for the preparation and the assessing of examinations. That issue will have to be considered seriously.

The DUP has always been concerned about the excessive amount of change that is being attempted simultaneously across so many elements of the education sector. As the Minister said this morning, the Bill represents another era of change. However, we need to ensure that it is a managed change, because far too often the system has been driven by directives from the Department, but not by direction from the Department. There is a challenge to us all — members of the Committee for Education, Members in the House, the Minister of Education, the Executive and the Assembly — to ensure that that is no longer the case.

ESA offers the potential for streamlined decision-making, reduced bureaucracy, and within a few years, hopefully, annual savings for reinvestment in frontline services. We have expressed concerns about how realistic are some of the short-term savings envisaged by the Minister. In order to maximise efficiency, it is essential that ESA is as lean a structure as possible, and is not top heavy, with too many senior management posts.

We will watch that space very closely. All too often in the past, the aspiration has not become the reality; we must ensure that that is not the case in this instance.

As a result of my party’s perseverance, proposals that would have removed the statutory entitlement of the Protestant Churches to appoint transferors’ representatives to school boards of governors have been overturned. I welcome that decision, which this House debated and can regard as a success. Representative bodies such as the Council for Catholic Maintained Schools (CCMS) are to be dissolved and replaced by advisory groups that have no statutory or service-delivery responsibilities. A new body will be created to represent the interests of the controlled schools. Many Members of this House will welcome that decision, to which we will give due consideration over the next few weeks and months.

We want, and support, greater autonomy for our schools. The ethos of individual schools should be preserved. As a regional body, the education and skills authority must have a high degree of accountability, with the Education Committee having a meaningful role.

The Governing Bodies Association (GBA) raised concern about the voluntary principle. If the represent-ation that the Education Committee received from the Department last week — that we have a system in which autonomy is given to local schools so that they have the power to make decisions without having to go through a bureaucratic rubber-stamping exercise — is put in place, that will be welcomed by all sectors.

I should have declared an interest as a member of the board of governors of a controlled secondary school. We would relish the opportunity to have the power and authority that some voluntary grammar schools have. We welcome that proposal, but we need to be careful in the way in which it is brought about. Those are issues that we will continue to pursue over the weeks and months.

Province-wide, consistent policies will now entitle all pupils to the same services regardless of where they live. It will remove the postcode lottery concerning issues such as special needs and home-to-school transport.

During the Committee’s intense period of line-by-line consideration of the draft legislation, my party will be to the fore. As well as clarifying the exact detail of the matters that I have outlined, we will particularly be examining the ramifications of the education and skills authority as a single employing authority. A huge amount of work is required. As we come to the end of 2008, we envisage entering 2009 with the purpose of ensuring that the required work is done.

I lay down a warning. Concerns were raised about the Libraries Bill — but can anyone tell me how the Libraries Bill was changed as it progressed through this House? We must not make that same mistake. If this House, the Education Committee and the Minister are to be relevant in delivering the education of our children, this Bill must be scrutinised and amended. I trust that the work that we envisage will be done in a way that will benefit all the children in Northern Ireland.

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. Listening to the remarks of the Chairperson of the Education Committee — and in his role as the DUP’s education spokesperson — I find myself disagreeing with him on very little. However, I reserve the right to study the Hansard report in case he slipped something in that I did not pick up.

I have no difficulty with — indeed, I support — the Member’s plea for the Assembly and the Committee for Education to closely and robustly scrutinise the Bill. In fact, the Committee has already played a positive role in developing the Bill, and anyone who examines the Minister’s public announcements about her changes to the legislation will realise that she has listened to the Committee’s opinion on many aspects of it.

For example, the matter concerning transferors, to which the Chairperson of the Committee for Education referred, was of serious concern to many people. It has been decided that there will be no change to the role of transferors on boards of governors, and that is the right decision. Transferors from the Protestant Churches have played a positive role in the education system, and they should be allowed to continue to do so. Therefore, I welcome that decision.

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

I am being praised by the blue-rinse brigade from the Conservative Party. [Laughter.]Given that, and the fact that I am agreeing with the Chairperson of the Committee for Education, perhaps I should sit down while I am ahead.

As the Minister said, the Bill is not an exercise in cost cutting; it is about improving educational outcomes for young people, and that is how it must be measured. Excellent educationalists are working in the education system — in classrooms and on boards — but we do not always have an excellent education system. That system must be refined and managed in a way that is accountable to local communities, the Assembly and broader society.

Another of the Minister’s changes — namely that the majority of ESA members will be local councillors — is to be welcomed, because that will afford democratic accountability at the highest level. In addition, the local committees, with which local managers will work and to which they will refer when delivering services, will include locally elected representatives, and that is important. It must also be remembered that ESA representatives will appear before, and be held accountable by, the Committee for Education and the Minister. Therefore, the proposed structure will be subject to several layers of accountability.

I note that UNISON — a trade union for which I have a lot of respect — is concerned that possibly the largest quango in western Europe will be created. I do not believe that that will be the case, because the safety measures that the Minister has put in place with regard to the authority’s membership and the membership of local committees, and those bodies’ accountability to the Assembly, will ensure that the quango will not run off with public resources.

Basil McCrea (UUP, Lagan Valley)

The Member disagreed with UNISON — a trade union for which he has a lot of respect — that the proposals will create the largest quango in western Europe. UNISON also stated:

“there is no evidence that the proposals will produce improved educational outcomes on key indicators, such as numeracy and literacy…the size of the proposed bureaucracy is likely to militate against the local flexible support that schools need on these issues.”

Does the Member agree with that statement?

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

No, and there are several matters that have been raised by UNISON with which I will publicly disagree today. Nevertheless, in the near future, I will meet its representatives and I will debate those matters with them.

ESA’s driving role must be educational improvement, and its failure in that role would mean that the Assembly and the local authorities would have failed hold it to account. However, we are not starting off by envisaging failure — ESA must succeed and educational attainment in the schools system must improve. Moreover, the support mechanism that ESA is legislated to provide for local boards of governors is better than the existing mechanism.

I have a lot of respect for UNISON — and for the trade union movement — but that does not mean that I cannot disagree or interact with it. This is the start of the debate about ESA, and in addition to people in this Building scrutinising and debating its future, the trade union movement will, quite correctly, debate and discuss its implications.

ESA’s ability to deliver in the future will depend on resources, and that has not been fully debated. For many years, the education system received increased funding through various initiatives.

However, during future Budget considerations, the Assembly and the Executive will need to step back and look at the way in which education is funded and whether the sector is receiving enough finance to allow any authority to ensure that improvements can be made.

I have heard Members from all Benches say — correctly — that primary education needs more resources. If that is to be achieved, the entire education sector will require more resources in order to direct the necessary funds into primary education and to allow the education and skills authority to ensure that the necessary changes to, and investment in, the education system will be successful.

I support the Bill for a variety for reasons, the most important of which is that it is not about cost cutting or trimming services and bureaucracy. The Bill must be about improving attainment in classrooms and schools, and ensuring that our young people can be everything that they wish to be. I welcome the fact that the Bill makes provision for the education and skills authority to look after not only children’s educational welfare but their spiritual and pastoral welfare. Schools are not only about teaching the three Rs; they are creating young adults for our society. Through its support networks, the education and skills authority will be able to deliver that.

I support the Bill, and I welcome the fact that the Committee for Education will play a robust role in the system and that it will scrutinise the legislation, in the words of its Chairperson, “line by line”. There is nothing to fear from that scrutiny or from the proposal of positive amendments to the Bill. However, amendments must add to the Bill rather than detract from it. I hope that the Committee will not employ scrutiny as a delaying tactic but will use it to provide positive input to the Bill.

Education has been waiting for change for many years. The boards are losing staff at all levels, and, if we are to have a successful education system in future, we must move forward. We need to introduce, as speedily as possible, the review of public administration (RPA) changes that are happening across all sections of Government.

Finally, the Minister and the Department have listened to the concerns about the two Bills. The two Bills are inextricably linked, to use a catchphrase that I heard somewhere else. The first and second Bills are linked because the Committee was concerned that it would be signing up to the first Bill without knowing what the second Bill contained.

The commencement Orders that were outlined at last week’s Committee meeting should reassure Committee members who may be concerned about signing up to a second Bill that they know nothing about. The Assembly will be involved at all stages of the process, and, therefore, Members can feel safe in their convictions that they are doing the right thing with regard to the Bill. Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle.

Basil McCrea (UUP, Lagan Valley)

I am somewhat confused by the debate. It was interesting that the Lord Morrow felt the need to intervene. I note that he was sitting on the Front Bench but has moved to the Back Bench. He is just checking out which way his party will go in the debate.

I was struck by the question about what was actually agreed. I heard Mr O’Dowd say that he disagreed with very little of what Mr Storey said. However, if I heard Mr Storey correctly, he gave two separate speeches — one on behalf of the Committee and the second on behalf of the DUP — in which he gave a long list of things about which he was unhappy and which he did not think were right — [Interruption.]

If the Lord Morrow wishes to intervene, I will be happy to let him. He does not need to speak from a sedentary position. He need only indicate, in the normal manner, that he wishes to speak.

I considered the comments from DUP Members. I asked Mr Storey whether a deal had been done. He assured me categorically that no deal has been done on the Bill, and I believe him; he is an honourable man.

I will be listening to the debate, as it progresses, and watching to see how Members vote during any Division.

I was struck also by the comments of other leading members of the DUP. When Sammy Wilson was Chairperson of the Committee for Education, for instance, he said:

“The proposal seems to be to move everything into the centre in the longer run and put it into a grand regional education and skills authority that will be remote, inaccessible and unaware of local concerns.” — [Official Report, Vol 28, No 4, p214, col 2].

He was talking about the Youth Service, of course.

I did not detect any great enthusiasm for the Bill from that Member, and neither do I expect any from Miss McIlveen. On the proposal to move the Youth Service into ESA, she said:

“Youth services would have greater long-term security if they were administered by local councils… We must ask ourselves whether youth services would be better served under potentially the largest education body in Europe. Would that reflect the current situation …?” — [Official Report, Vol 28, No 4, p219, col 1].

The Member makes some very good points, and I look forward to hearing her develop them as the debate progresses.

I am not sure whether we have reached agreement on the way forward, despite what Mr O’Dowd says. It seems that we have a great Civil Service response — and I notice that that caused a few heads to pop up. In the absence of policy, we have process. As Mr Storey said, we receive a lot of directives from the Department, but not much direction. The wheels are spinning, but there is no forward motion. We have not tackled any of the core problems in our education system; we have not reached any agreement. Furthermore, we have not found a way to deal with the transfer arrangements from primary to post primary, with whether 14 is the appropriate age for the consideration of those things, and we have not explored what we can do about — [Interruption.]

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

The Member is clearly confused, because his comments do not relate to the objectives of the Bill, or to ESA, which is concerned about restructuring the education delivery system and improving delivery services for education and support services.

Basil McCrea said that I had disagreed with little of what was said by Mervyn Storey, the Chairperson of the Committee for Education and his party’s spokesperson on education. Mr Storey read a list of issues that he wants to scrutinise at a Committee meeting. Why would I disagree with his wanting scrutiny to take place at a scrutiny Committee?

Basil McCrea (UUP, Lagan Valley)

There are many things that the honourable Member does that I cannot understand, that being one of them. The Assembly is supposed to be trying to find consensus, but that is not happening. Some people are bulling on blindly and saying that they will do it their own way. That is an assault on democracy. Proper debate is not being allowed to happen, because the outcome has been decided already.

Mervyn Storey (DUP, North Antrim)

I missed the beginning of the Member’s contribution in which he referred to me. I do not think that he made any accusations about me, because he said that I was an honourable man. Perhaps, he had too much to drink over the weekend, and his vision is blurred.

If the Member believes that a deal has been done, why would I come to the House and raise my concerns? One must remember what I said. This is a litmus test for the Committee for Education, of which Basil McCrea is a member. Will he assure the House that he, along with his colleagues and the rest of the Committee, will suggest and consider meaningful amendments that will, if necessary, ensure that the Bill is moulded in such a way that will make it acceptable to Members, instead of saying merely what should be done?

Fred Cobain (UUP, Belfast North)

How can that be done?

Mervyn Storey (DUP, North Antrim)

There is a legislative process. The Member is a Member of the Legislative Assembly, or, perhaps, he has become a member of the Tory Party.

Basil McCrea (UUP, Lagan Valley)

I understand the Member’s difficulty. It is difficult for one to reply to a statement that was made when one was not in the Chamber. Had the Member been in the Chamber, he would understand that I was not attacking him; he has jumped to a conclusion. I have heard what he has had to say in the Committee, I have heard his personal opinion, and I know that he has grave reservations about many aspects of the Bill.

If I am not correct, he can say so. I have asked the Member personally, and he will confirm it; I have asked the appropriate people whether a deal has been done. I have been given an absolute assurance that no deal has been done.

Mervyn Storey (DUP, North Antrim)

Will the Member specify what he means by a deal being done? What does he believe that the trade-off has been?

Basil McCrea (UUP, Lagan Valley)

I am only making the position clear, Mr Deputy Speaker, that I have received an assurance that no deal has been done: no deal on the 11-plus; no deal on transfer; no deal on age 14; no deal on anything. In response, Mr O’Dowd said that I was not talking about the right thing. I am talking about the general principles. I heard the Minister say clearly that the whole idea of ESA was to tackle the underachievement in our society and to tackle issues of underperformance. All those issues have been raised and will be looked at. My comments are relevant.

We are fiddling while Rome burns. We are not dealing with the real issues. The Bill is to make life easy for the Civil Service. The origins of the issue started during direct rule when a Minister would fly in, make a few decisions and fly out again. That is not the case now. We have a Minister of Education — allegedly. That —

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

We definitely have a Minister of Education.

Basil McCrea (UUP, Lagan Valley)

I was just checking. Is it you or her?

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

It is definitely her.

Francie Molloy (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

I remind Members to make their remarks through the Chair. Mr McCrea has the Floor.

Basil McCrea (UUP, Lagan Valley)

Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker.

We want to tackle the underachievement in our society, and we want to find a more efficient way of organising our education system. I understand what the Member opposite said when he referred to budgets and increasing funding in primary, nursery and other schools. The Minister told us what she thought was the answer to the question that she had posed. She asked why the underperformance was taking place. However, there is no real answer to, or logical analysis of, why underperformance is taking place. The proposed solution — while not being sure what the problem is — is to look at good schools operating in difficult areas that produce good results, schools with strong and effective leadership, schools wedded to the community, schools with a strong ethos, and schools that have the appropriate level of autonomy so that they can make decisions at a local level.

The Education Bill will destroy all that and it will take away from our schools — our most successful schools — the level of autonomy that they need to make the right decisions for their community. It will not provide them with any additional resources. It will burden them with an overarching bureaucratic system that will take away from the effective education that they provide. Therefore, I am extremely uncomfortable with the direction of the Bill.

It is easy for the Department to issue directives — directives come out in multitudes. Our school leaders and practitioners are overburdened with the amount of direction that they are given. However, they do not receive the resources to implement those directions. We must find a system that will provide some form of local accountability that lets practitioners — leaders in their schools — do what is right for our children.

It struck me when speaking recently on the Health and Social Care (Reform) Bill, brought forward by Minister McGimpsey, that Members opposite supported the idea of creating a huge quango for health. They understood why it is right, with regard to health issues, to have a certain element to look after financial controls, or computer systems, or to deal with certain matters on a regional basis, but they reject the notion that we should have one super quango that handles everything for education. If it is good enough for health, it is good enough for education. It is exactly the same argument.

One thing that really worries me is that the Minister said, if I heard her correctly, that the Bill would introduce clear accountability to me — I do not think that she meant me; I think that she meant her, the Minister of Education.

The truth is that we are witnessing the introduction of politburo politics. There is an absence of democratic accountability. Mr O’Dowd suggested that the Committee would somehow have an overarching view on the matter. I do not see that provided for in the Bill. I see that the matter will be passed on to another quango. Some unpopular decisions will be made. When we are discussing other topics, some Members normally say that the Minister of Education has the support of the unions, the educationalists, the stakeholders, and of this, that and the other. The truth is that the Minister of Education does not enjoy unilateral support. In fact, by uniting most of Northern Ireland against her proposals, she has managed to achieve the near impossible. Had she adopted a different approach, it might have been possible to consider the Bill in a particular light. However, we cannot support a Bill that will give unfettered control to a Minister of Education who does not listen to democratically elected Members or to the teachers, parents, and, above all, the pupils.

The proposals in the Bill appear to be the Minister’s attempt to gobble up the entire education system. Under the Bill, early-years provision will also be put in the pot. There is a real danger that the authority will take on too much, and that, like so many oversized bureaucracies, it will strain under its own weight. Again, I know that the DUP shared that view, or at least it did previously. No doubt, we will get confirmation of that. The proposals for area planning were also a major concern. Much of the content of the Bill will be greatly influenced by the guiding principles by which area-based planning is conducted. That is an issue of fundamental concern. If one does not know the rules by which the process has been conducted, how can one have any confidence in the outcome?

An equal concern exists that the education and skills authority, being a single employing authority, will further reduce the independence of schools and their ability to manage their own affairs, promote their own ethos and maintain standards. Many teachers and educational professionals are starting to question seriously what this Bill and its sister Bill will mean for them.

There is further confusion over the education advisory forum. No definitive policies have been developed. I am extremely disappointed that the forum has not been included in the Bill, as it will have serious ramifications for the ESA and its workings. The forum will advise not only the Department of Education but the Department for Employment and Learning. It is crucial that we gain full understanding of what that forum will entail as quickly as possible.

The Bill, in its current form, leaves as many questions unanswered as it answers. However, we know that, when the Minister concludes the review of public adminis­tration (RPA) process, we will be left with a top-down, centralised education system that will not address many of the most pressing problems in education. It will not allow our excellent educational professionals to flourish, and that will impact on our children. The Bill offers a broad-stroke, ideological approach to definitive and real problems, which may ultimately result in the removal of the best parts of our education system across the board. The Ulster Unionist Party will not stand back and let that happen. I urge all other parties to reflect seriously on the practical, democratic and inclusive ramifications that the Bill will have for our entire educational system and for our society.

The Ulster Unionist Party’s goal is to deliver an education system that provides an excellent education for everyone in Northern Ireland. The party also believes in encouraging education professionals, local communities, councils and children to invest in, and engage with, the system and its development. The Bill does not allow for such input. Moreover, the party does not believe in destroying the parts of our education system that are doing well in order to improve those areas that are not — that is misguided, ideological thinking. As UNISON said — we have discussed this point before — the Bill before the Assembly fails the classic principle of form following function. I do not support the Bill in its current form, but I look forward to scrutinising it further at Committee Stage.

I trust that all the Members who are here today will understand that our concerns are legitimate and serious and that we are asking for —

Stephen Farry (Alliance, North Down)

Will the Member give way?

Basil McCrea (UUP, Lagan Valley)

I was one word away from finishing.

Stephen Farry (Alliance, North Down)

As the Member knows, timing is everything. He alleged that the Bill is ideological. However, his party — which has joined forces with the Conservative Party — is opposed to the Bill, and, on the left wing, UNISON also has reservations about it. Therefore, in what sense is the Bill ideological?

Basil McCrea (UUP, Lagan Valley)

For a minute, I was worried that Dr Farry was not going to intervene, but he was fortunately able to come up with something. As usual, his erudite and incisive brain has picked up on something. He probably saw it on the TV — that is very good.

The Ulster Unionist Party is a party of Northern Ireland — strong within the Union, dedicated to the education of our people, and dedicated to ensuring that society improves for all of us. Dr Farry should, in the words of our leader, Sir Reg Empey, join us.

Dominic Bradley (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Newry and Armagh)

Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. Tá áthas orm labhairt ar an Bhille Oideachais inniu agus ar an údarás um oideachas agus scileanna. As an objective witness, I can verify that Mr Basil McCrea called Mr Storey an “honourable man” while he was out of the Chamber. That is the good news. The bad news is that some Members shouted from the Back Benches “so was Brutus”. [Laughter.]

When she introduced the Bill, the Minister said that she was:

“not interested in rearranging bureaucratic deckchairs.” — [Official Report, Vol 35, No 6, p256, col 1].

However, if the transfer issue is not resolved, many people — especially parents and teachers — will see the advancement of the Bill as the Minister ignoring the looming iceberg and proceeding full steam ahead. We must recognise that there is still confusion, anxiety and uncertainty among those who are affected most by the transfer issue. As we face a possible situation of unregulation, the general public may view today’s proceedings as a rearrangement of deckchairs as we lurch towards a disastrous situation.

Church leaders suggested recently that academic selection at age 14 could be an area of agreement. The SDLP welcomed that possibility, but alas, little progress has been made on it. We cannot afford to spurn that opportunity — the public demand more than that from us.

For an area that is as small as Northern Ireland, the ESA will be a huge organisation. That smacks of what is known as democratic centralism, which is the way that Gerry Adams runs Sinn Féin. Regardless of how the education and library boards were viewed, there was a perception that there was local access to executives at the highest level and speedy responses to issues that were raised.

A main issue that many people have about the ESA concerns its local interface with schools and youth clubs. Although the Bill does not detail such arrangements, it is worth putting down a marker that we expect easy access to the ESA’s services at a local level throughout the North. Access to services and responses from the ESA must be a vast improvement on current services; we do not want schools telling us that the level of access to — and provision of — services is not serving their needs and is not of sufficient quality.

The lofty ideals of legislation can appear laudable on paper, but we need to ensure that their practical outworkings best serve schools and pupils. Although we all agree with the aims of the Bill, especially in relation to raising standards in education, standards cannot be raised on fresh air alone. That requires considerable investment in resources.

We were promised constantly that the ESA would deliver savings of around £20 million per annum, which would be reinvested in front-line services. However, recent statements from the Minister are putting less emphasis on those savings, which makes one doubt whether they will be realised.

If we are to support the Bill, we need solid assurances that the projected savings are still an important element in the establishment of the ESA. Schools will want to know that the promised savings are still achievable and that they will be available to them for front-line services. We need to ensure that the ESA delivers the promised savings and that it is monitored and reported on annually to ensure that that happens.

We share the reservations of other Members, particularly with regard to the examinations council. We believe that it should remain independent, but it is difficult to see how that will happen if it is placed under the control of the ESA. We need to give fresh consideration to that area.

As I said, standards are a very important part of the education system. We need to ensure that there are effective benchmarks at all stages of the system. There is also a need for an accurate system of measuring value-added data. The SDLP will ensure that the Bill —

Ken Robinson (UUP, East Antrim)

I am very glad that the Member raised the added-value factor. Will he agree that it is that added value in the classroom and the relationships that have built up over the years between the teacher and the children, the teacher and the parents, the school and the community, the school and its local education board, that have helped the existing system — badly framed as it might be, as the Minister said — to succeed over the past 35 years?

Dominic Bradley (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Newry and Armagh)

I thank the Member for his intervention. Given that many schools have achieved a degree of value added, which is not always reflected in dry examination data, we need a system that will reflect both that and examination outcomes. That is the point that I wanted to make

The SDLP intends to scrutinise the Bill closely, and our support for it is not a given. Unless we can be sure that the Bill will deliver on its stated aims, our support will not be forthcoming. We want assurances on all the points that I raised. Gabhaim buíochas leat, a LeasCheann Comhairle.

Trevor Lunn (Alliance, Lagan Valley)

We welcome the fact that the Bill has been introduced at last. It is good to see a substantial piece of legislation in the education field being brought before the Assembly. I do not wish to repeat what the Minister said, but the broad thrust of the Bill relates to raising standards across the board, to the fact that the financial case indicates major savings from year three onwards, and to the fact that we are not looking at a rehashed education board. Although we are quite happy about that, that is not to say that we do not have some reservations, to which I will come in due course.

In broad terms, however, my party welcomes the proposals. We like the idea of a regional organisation with a strong emphasis on local delivery and maximum autonomy for schools. Those concepts have been talked about for months — years, even — and now that there is a possibility that they will come to fruition, we will run with it.

I also welcome the fact that the Chairperson of the Committee for Education — he has disappeared, and I wanted to compliment him — has said that the Committee will take a constructive view and try to achieve a consensus. I believe him; I think that he means it, and I believe that his view is shared by a majority of the members of the Committee.

Basil McCrea asked whether a deal had been done. I do not know — he has disappeared as well. However, he talked about the two parties doing it their way; I think he used the phrase “bulling ahead”. I do not see it that way. Over the past few weeks and months, I have witnessed a convergence of thinking among most of the parties on the requirement for an ESA Bill. Now that it is before us, I wish it a fair wind. Like other parties, however, we have some concerns that we will develop during the Bill’s Committee Stage and Consideration Stage.

Mervyn Storey raised the issue of sectoral interests being allowed to carry on with major developments in advance of the Bill becoming law. My party has a major concern about that. There is a situation in Larne which is causing great concern. I do not see why some of those developments could not be put on hold in the meantime. Mervyn is back now, but I will not repeat my compliment.

Our most serious concern is around the representation at the top level of ESA, and the requirement that a majority of its board — if I can call it that — be composed of local councillors. I am not declaring an interest; I am a local councillor, so I feel that I can speak freely about those matters. I will not repeat the comment that was made during a meeting of the Committee, but let us just say that there is a possibility that only a minority of members of that board will have the required expertise, while the majority are there purely because they are local councillors, and to make up the numbers. It may be that there will be enough local councillors with sufficient expertise — I do not know. However, having taken note of the performance of local councillors on the existing education and library boards, I am filled with dread. The South Eastern Education and Library Board is in suspension, and the Belfast Education and Library Board is in limbo; that does not bode well for the future.

Why is the ESA board to be composed mainly of local councillors? What have we done to offend the system? Schedule 1(19) of the Bill states that Assembly Members cannot be members of the ESA board. The starting point for all of that was the former Minister’s view that there should not be any democratic representation on the ESA board. We have gone from that position to having a majority of local councillors. That is incredible; there must be a sensible compromise between those two positions that allows for local democratic —

Ken Robinson (UUP, East Antrim)

The Member may or may not know that the Libraries Bill, which was scrutinised by the Committee for Culture, Arts and Leisure, was, in its early stages, designed to render the proposed new libraries authority absolutely bereft of any local political or community involvement. The Members of that Committee saw that as a difficulty that would reflect what had happened in the health boards over many years, and they were determined not to allow that to happen to the new Library Authority. I am glad that the Minister of Education has accepted that local councillors, in their new post-2011 format, will have some influence in the running of ESA.

Trevor Lunn (Alliance, Lagan Valley)

I accept the Member’s point. He used the phrase “some influence”. I do not believe that it has to be a majority influence — that is the point that my party will pursue as the Bill makes it way through its Committee Stage.

Mervyn Storey (DUP, North Antrim)

I wish to generate a bit of debate, just in case people have gone to sleep. Just for clarity, will the Member give his definition of “democratic accountability”?

I hear the concerns of Mr Lunn, but can he tell us how we move from a situation where civil servants control all the matters about which Basil McCrea said he is worried? How do we ensure that organisations such as ESA and other bodies that deliver for the community are democratically accountable?

Trevor Lunn (Alliance, Lagan Valley)

Democratic accountability will come from the House and from the Committee for Education. However, democratic accountability need not involve a majority of elected representatives on such a board. The ESA will require a certain level of expertise, and I am simply not convinced that a majority of local councillors can provide that expertise or that there is any need for a majority of the board’s members to be elected representatives.

If would be fair enough if, instead of six out of 11 or seven out of 12, that there were three or four elected representatives on the board, as long they brought the required expertise to the job. The ESA is to be the biggest education body in western Europe — on what basis that claim is made I am not sure — but it will be massive and it will need expert leadership. There has been a change of mind, because some Members who wanted no democratic accountability at all on the board now want a majority.

Basil McCrea (UUP, Lagan Valley)

Will the Member give way?

Trevor Lunn (Alliance, Lagan Valley)

Aye, why not. [Laughter.]

Basil McCrea (UUP, Lagan Valley)

I share the Member’s concern about the reasons for excluding MLAs from the process, and I am interested to hear his thoughts and suggestions on that matter. Will he expand on how he thinks Members might be more properly brought into the oversight?

Trevor Lunn (Alliance, Lagan Valley)

No; I do not wish to expand on how MLAs can be brought into the oversight, as Basil puts it; however, I see no good reason for excluding them.

Dominic Bradley (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Newry and Armagh)

Will the Member give way?

Trevor Lunn (Alliance, Lagan Valley)

Aye, certainly. [Laughter.]

Dominic Bradley (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Newry and Armagh)

If MLAs were members of the board of ESA and were also charged with overseeing the work of that board, would there not be a clash of interests?

Trevor Lunn (Alliance, Lagan Valley)

That is possible. Surely by now, however, Members know how to deal with conflicts of interest. If a conflict of interest arises, there is a protocol to deal with it: MLAs can withdraw or not take part in a particular discussion. A conflict of interest is not an insurmountable problem; the same thing happens in councils. Surely, there is room at the lower levels of the ESA structure for plenty of local councillors to provide input on their areas, which is perhaps where their influence will be most valued.

I share Basil McCrea’s concern about the future of the Youth Service and where it naturally lies, and I agree with him that there is a good argument for involving the new local councils in the control of those services. We have concerns about the accountability of ESA generally. However, that said, the Bill is a document for negotiation.

I get the impression that parties in the Assembly have had a considerable change of view about the future of the ESA and whether it can succeed. I listened to Dominic Bradley’s point about the looming iceberg of transfer issues —

Dominic Bradley (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Newry and Armagh)

And regulation.

Trevor Lunn (Alliance, Lagan Valley)

And regulation. Six months ago, I thought that ESA was a looming iceberg; suddenly, it is not. A consensus is developing. Who is to say that, with good will and a fair wind, we cannot develop a consensus on the other pressing major issues? I would not like to say that a deal might have been done, but it is possible that there are understandings.

Basil McCrea (UUP, Lagan Valley)

There has been no deal.

Trevor Lunn (Alliance, Lagan Valley)

No, there has been no deal, but under­standings might have been developed. Who knows? However, the matter will involve all Members. Today, we are taking a step forward, which I welcome. I look forward to working with the Committee on taking the matter forward.

Michelle McIlveen (DUP, Strangford)

The Education Bill, together with the Bill that is to be introduced in 2009, could mark what is probably the most important and fundamental rationalisation of education in Northern Ireland. However, if it is handled incorrectly, it could lead to one of the biggest tragedies in education, which could ruin a generation of pupils. The legislation is an opportunity for the Assembly and the Minister to demonstrate a capability to put aside party politics and sectarian policies and to take a step towards creating the framework for an education system that is fit for purpose, cost-efficient and non-discriminatory.

It is important that the Minister does not adopt her now-familiar approach of digging in her heels but that she takes time to listen, digest, rationally consider and, I hope, adopt any reasonable suggestions that the Committee for Education and Members may make about the legislation. The Minister’s way cannot be the only way, and I ask her to approach the subject in a more reasonable manner than she has approached the issues of academic selection or Irish-medium education. By now, she must surely realise that being aggressive and dogmatic achieves nothing but an aggressive and dogmatic response.

I do not wish to repeat much of what has already been said. Unlike Basil McCrea, who took 20 minutes to get to the point of outlining some of his concerns with the Bill, I will deal with my concerns more directly. My colleague Mr Storey has already listed areas that need further attention, and I intend to focus on a few of the issues that need further clarification and which must be urgently addressed by the Minister if the Bill is to be a workable and acceptable piece of legislation.

The first issue is that of the single employing authority, with which clauses 3 to 12 of the Bill deal. It is a centrepiece provision that will result in the establishment of employment schemes in which the education and skills authority will issue employment policies for staff and guidelines for the appointment of staff in grant-aided schools. The intention for the education and skills authority to become the single employing authority is not only to ensure that common employment policies apply throughout the grant-aided teaching profession but to facilitate easier sideways movement between the sectors for staff.

Therefore, why have the Minister and her Department not made any approach to OFMDFM to seek an amendment to the Fair Employment and Treatment (Northern Ireland) Order 1998, given that employment as a teacher in a school falls outside the scope of that Order? The Minister repeatedly tells us about equality of opportunity, partnership and fairness. I want her to step up to the mark in that regard and request that the 1998 Order be amended in order to facilitate true equality of opportunity to all teachers.

Does the Minister really believe that it is fair to continue the practice of requiring a Catholic teacher-training certificate to teach in a particular sector? Is it not time that the Minister showed in deeds, rather than in empty words, that equality is her primary objective? In order for her to do that and to bring to fruition the spirit and intention of the Bill by creating a single employment authority, she must address that gross discrimination. If the Minister fails with that, there is no point in the single employing authority provision being enacted.

Despite the promises of her Department from a year ago to approach the Office of the First Minister and deputy First Minister (OFMDFM), I understand that nothing has been done. It is not good enough that the Minister and the Department continue to sit on their hands over the issue. Will she undertake to the Assembly today that she will petition OFMDFM to introduce legislation to ensure that that hurdle to fair and equal employment is removed?

Under clause 21, the education and library boards and the Council for Catholic Maintained Schools are to be dissolved. The Northern Ireland Council for Integrated Education and the Irish-medium representative body are not statutory organisations, and, therefore, they do not have to be dissolved through legislation. However, the Bill intends to create sectoral support organisations for Catholic maintained schools, integrated schools and Irish-medium schools. The Minister must clearly confirm that a similar organisation will be created for the controlled sector.

What role will those organisations play? Why are they being retained? What will the existence of such organisations cost the taxpayer? What limitations will the Minister place on those organisations to ensure that they do not seek to extend their influence beyond that which is intended by the Assembly? All those questions are quite reasonable, and we should quite reasonably expect an answer from the Minister. When considering the establishment of a body such as the education and skills authority, which is intended to make efficiency savings, the taxpayer is entitled to know whether there is good reason for retaining other bodies that will be a drain on resources.

Equally, the taxpayer is entitled to know the extent of that drain. Furthermore, if we are serious about having an education and skills authority, we must be extremely wary of creating or retaining organisations that will seek to erode and undermine that authority, otherwise, what is the point of ESA? It is only natural for a sectoral support organisation to seek to expand its influence and to create a role for itself. We need only look at how CCMS expanded its role without further legislation. Therefore, it is vital that the Minister clarifies the position about the issue at the earliest possible opportunity.

The Minister has expressed her intention to begin recruiting for ESA. My party colleagues and I feel that that is potentially an abuse of the system. At present, there is no legislative status for recruitment to that body, and to begin a major recruitment at this juncture could have a considerable negative impact on the education system. I understand that there is a need to hit the ground running, if and when ESA takes control, but where will the staff to fill those ESA positions come from? The obvious answer is that they will come from the existing education and library boards. Existing vacancy control restrictions, while intended to reduce the possible need for compulsory redundancies, have left holes in the system, which will grow at a fast rate as more staff move to the embryonic ESA or leave the system altogether.

Mervyn Storey (DUP, North Antrim)

Does the Member agree that we have already had experience of that with regard to the education and library boards? A convergence followed from that legislation. Does the Member agree that it is vital that, in the interim arrangements, the staff and expertise of existing boards converge with the needs of the new body? In that way, we can avoid losing that expertise because employees have decided that their interest and input are not wanted.

Michelle McIlveen (DUP, Strangford)

I agree with my colleague absolutely. The problems that this may create are twofold: there could be an experience deficit in ESA, but more pressingly, all this may present problems for existing organisations and, in particular, for boards discharging their duties in the final lap of their existence. The net result would be a detrimental impact on the education of children.

The Minister must tread carefully and explain to the Assembly how she intends to ensure a smooth transition while maintaining high standards of administration delivery to the education system.

There must be continuity of service, and the current organisations must maintain their capability to function up to, and including, the final day of their existence. Until they cease to exist, those organisations — not ESA — will deliver the huge volume of essential front-line education services. The continuing need and entitlement of young people to education services will be as great today as it will in six months’ time, or in the final weeks of the boards’ existence. It is for the Minister to ensure continuity.

The boards cannot afford to be winding down while they are winding up, and to avoid that, the Minister must not allow ESA to asset-strip the boards of talent, or to diminish morale within those organisations by recruitment to ESA before a legislative basis exists for it. To do so would disregard due process and the rightful role of the Assembly in ensuring proper scrutiny of legislation. Members would be faced with a fait accompli, in the form of appointments that would be costly to freeze or reverse; and such a reversal would waste public funds and cause embarrassment to the Minister and her Department.

Moreover, while there must be some movement of high-level staff into ESA in advance of the takeover date, that will not be necessary until the autumn of next year, and, even then, it should be subject to the first Bill having completed its passage, and the second having been brought to the Floor of the House. Any other arrangement would put the operational cart before the legislative horse.

The Minister must also ensure that all her energies are not focused on establishing ESA; she must also support and sustain the existing structures to ensure maximum delivery. For the sake of young people, it is vital that she does not take her eye of the ball.

It is also vital that the Minister does not simply employ outside staff at ESA; were she to do that, ESA, when it becomes functional, would not have the benefit of the valuable skills and experience of those who currently work in the boards.

Basil McCrea (UUP, Lagan Valley)

Will the Member comment on the issue of the Youth Service in the new system, which is a matter that she has previously raised in the House. Does the Member still believe that the Youth Service will inevitably become:

“the Cinderella service of the Department of Education” — [Official Report, Vol 28, No 4, p219, col 1].

— if kept within the ESA? Does she still support moving the Youth Service to the councils?

Michelle McIlveen (DUP, Strangford)

Obviously, the Member has digressed from the point that I was making. However, I have previously placed those beliefs on record, and I still hold them. I will bring that view to the Committee when we examine the Bill.

Returning to the point about employment within the ESA, it is vital that such skills and experience be harnessed, not ignored. It must be made clear that there will be a transfer of staff into the ESA. Clearly, there are very committed staff at all levels in education, and they will continue to work hard to deliver the best possible services, as they have until now.

It is hard to be fully enthused about something until one knows whether one will have a part to play, and what that part will be. Furthermore, it is natural that questions are being asked by education staff in respect of whether they will still have a job, what that job will be, and where they will be working.

It is essential that the Minister and the Department keep morale high throughout that period of uncertainty, and the only way that that can be achieved is through full disclosure and consultation. If morale deteriorates, so will the service that is provided, and that will ultimately affect the education of children. The Minister and her Department must avoid that situation.

As for area-based planning — an issue that is mentioned in passing in the Bill — that process must be carried out based on the proposed new council boundaries. I ask the Minister — as the Chairperson of the Committee for Education has already — to clarify what role local learning partnerships will have. The Committee believes that those partnerships have a valuable role to play.

I wish to highlight several matters — which other Members have already mentioned — for which the Committee deserves a great deal of credit. Much has been said about opposition to the ESA in the past, but the Committee has fought hard on a number of issues and has achieved vital concessions that have allayed a number of its fears. More still needs to be done, particularly in relation to teacher employment and equality, but the Committee is mindful of the concessions that have been achieved so far. That is particularly the case in respect of the retention of the transferors on boards of governors, the removal of whom would have caused greater inequality in our schools than currently exists.

A further concession that has been gained by the Committee is an assurance that a second Bill that deals with the ESA will be presented to the Assembly before the Final Stage of the Education Bill. That means that the House will be able to ensure that the promises that have been made in respect of the new authority are realised in legislation, and that there will be local delivery of services — which the Committee felt would have been lost in a huge, centralised quango. Such safeguards for education have been established as a result of the hard work of the Committee and these devolved institutions.

In conclusion, I agree with the concerns that were highlighted by the Chairperson of the Education Committee. The matters to which I have referred are not an exhaustive list of concerns in respect of the Bill — clear guidance must be provided by the Minister and her officials. We have an opportunity to make a significant change in the schooling of our children and young people, and that opportunity should not be missed or incorrectly implemented. I ask the Minister to carefully consider the issues that I have raised and to respond appropriately.

Nelson McCausland (DUP, Belfast North)

Education is one of most important elements in any society. It is particularly important that we get matters right in respect of the administration of our education system.

Back in the early 1970s, the education and library boards were introduced. Those boards replaced the previous system, and have been with us for 35 years or so. Therefore, it is important that we get any new system absolutely right, because that is of primary importance in delivering a good-quality education system in Northern Ireland.

Over the years, there have been several attempts and various proposals to reorganise the administration of education. For example, there were proposals to reduce the number of boards, but that initiative fell by the wayside.

We now seem to be on the way to change, but it is important that it be the right change. Change in itself is not necessarily a good thing — it can be change for the better, or change for the worse. It is important that we make sure that it is change for the better.

The Minister spoke about a system that is effective and efficient. Those are hopes and aspirations with which everyone concurs. I will add a third “e” to that list: the system should be equitable as well as being effective and efficient. It should also be fair to all the different sectors so that none is advantaged and none disadvantaged — as has, unfortunately, been the case in the past. It is clear that there are deficiencies in the current system.

The Minister went on to say that the current system is failing certain groups, and she listed some of them. It is true that certain groups in our society are not achieving the educational success that they should be achieving. However, many factors militate against academic and educational achievement; the structure — the architecture — is but one of them.

I hope that in the process that we are about to start in the new year, the role of the Committee will be properly recognised and that every opportunity will be taken by, and given to, the Committee to scrutinise and amend the Bill as appropriate. It is absolutely imperative that we have enough time to do that job thoroughly. The issue is complex, and there are many aspects to it. We need to get it right.

The Minister spoke about harmonisation across the different areas of the Province. It is understandable that there is criticism when a youth club in one area, and under one system, receives funding, while, in a different board area and under a different system, another youth club does not. It is important that there is equity across the Province.

In speaking of equity, I return to my earlier point: primary equity must be between the different education sectors. As my colleague Michelle McIlveen said, some progress has been made. A number of issues have been addressed; but more needs to be done. I hope that we have the time to make those changes in order to get a good result from the process. I welcome the fact that the second Bill will be introduced so that we can see it before the first Bill completes its course.

A number of specific issues will emerge over the coming months. There is certainly an issue regarding the single employing authority, about which two of my party colleagues have already spoken. There is the issue of the Roman Catholic teacher training certificate, which is something that has been discriminatory. That is not just an issue for Catholic schools, it is an issue for integrated schools in which some teachers have been required to have the certificate in order to teach in that sector. People from both Protestant and Roman Catholic communities have come into my constituency office to express concern about that matter. Some of them have taught in Catholic schools and in integrated schools in England but were not able to gain employment in Northern Ireland.

There is also an issue concerning the working environment. Some years ago, the education and library boards drew up a protocol with the trade unions about the working environment in schools and what constituted an appropriate working environment for staff. That protocol did not apply to all teachers, because the boards did not employ teachers in the Catholic sector — they simply employed ancillary staff in the Roman Catholic sector. However, that will become an issue, because it is not just about the recruitment of teachers, as regards the Roman Catholic teacher training certificate; it is also an issue about the nature of the environment in which those teachers work. During the course of the year, we will need to tease out the implications of that very thoroughly.

There are also issues around the architecture as regards the sectoral support organisations. That has been touched on already by my colleagues, and I will not repeat what has been said, but it is one of the most obvious areas of inequality and unfairness in the current system, and has been a major source of grievance.

Sectoral bodies already exist, such as the Council for Catholic Maintained Schools, and in a different form as regards integrated and Irish-medium schools. However, the rights and interests of the controlled sector have hitherto not been adequately or properly represented. In the future, equality must be ensured.

The Minister has a love and deep affection for the word “equality”; she talks about it constantly. Meeting that equality will be one of the most fundamental tests of what emerges from this process. The current system has given distinct advantages and preferential treatment to some sectors over others. The DUP, and I as an individual Member of the Assembly, will ensure that that equality test is applied fully, thoroughly and fundamentally throughout the process. We will not sign up to anything that does not deliver equality.

As a member of an education and library board, I am concerned about the impact that the recruitment of staff will have on boards during the interim period. We have already seen a negative impact on the library authority, with staff disappearing into the new body or simply disappearing into early retirement. I am concerned that there might, in the coming year, be a situation whereby the embryonic authority, in shadow form, would strip away senior staff from the boards. That could have a detrimental effect on the education service delivered to schools in that interim period.

I have a concern, too, about membership of the board. I understand, and I may be wrong, that to become board members, candidates will have to apply and be interviewed. I do not know whether the Minister will set an 11-plus-style test for them. Perhaps it should be a 40-plus test, but there should be some type of test. I do not know how the Minister will do that because she is obviously very much against testing. However, whatever board emerges, it must be truly representative of all Northern Ireland and all sectors, and be a board on which there are the requisite skills to provide a good service to schools.

My colleagues spoke about autonomy for schools. It is clear from presentations that were made to the Committee for Education that local schools want to have maximum control over their own affairs. That is something for which schools made a strong case. How will the Bill affect that autonomy?

What will be its impact on area-based planning, and on local issues such as procurement processes? Will there be some sort of subregional structure to carry out procurement processes in different areas? What will be the nature of any subregional structure, as was proposed for the library authority, and how will it be brought into effect? That which is appropriate for Belfast may be more than slightly different from what is appropriate for the north-west, or for Fermanagh or Tyrone. It is important, therefore, that we get the whole package before making any final decisions.

I share the concerns of my colleague Michelle McIlveen about the Youth Service. As a result of experience in, and involvement with, the Youth Service, I know that the Youth Service often has a very close relationship with community services, and with services that are delivered through local councils. Therefore, I am not fully convinced about proposals that the Bill should incorporate the Youth Service. The Youth Service is already poorly treated, with a single Department dealing with education and youth. In the past year, the Youth Service has been seriously underfunded because the Minster decided to deprioritise it.

I fear that having a single authority to deal with all those things might be a temptation for another de-prioritising of youth. If the Department and the Minister are doing it, what is to stop ESA doing it? That leads to the series of caveats, concerns and reservations that we have outlined. Nevertheless, there is a strong case for having a single, overarching authority. I hope that, over the next year, the Department gives the Committee the opportunity to ensure that all that is required is done in order to produce a good result.

Ken Robinson (UUP, East Antrim)

I declare an interest as a governor in two controlled primary schools.

Many Members have drawn attention to the equality issue that the Minister must address. No longer should we have a one-way street that allows teachers to move from controlled schools into maintained schools, but not the opposite way because of the certification requirement. I hope that the Minister will address that; it is a fundamental issue of concern to the Committee.

Nelson McCausland reminded us of previous attempts to reorganise education. At one stage, the five boards were to be reduced to three; however, a decision was not reached on whether it should be east, west and Belfast or north, south and Belfast. A political balance was required but could not be struck, and, therefore, the five boards remain.

I am concerned about the potentially draconian powers that will be assigned to the ESA as a central body. Those powers are most worrying, and it is difficult to understand how anyone in their right mind would approve them without the most careful consideration. I am glad to hear that my colleagues on the Education Committee have decided to treat the proposal with utmost caution.

In their current form, the proposals are unacceptable, and will make it difficult for schools to attract and keep governors. At a meeting last night, I was speaking with governors who are already expressing fears that their current duties are much more than when they took up their posts. The duties that may be imposed by this legislation frighten them quite considerably.

We have also heard that the proposed reorganisation will lead to difficulty in dealing with the myriad local issues that schools face daily, and to which the education and library boards respond quite effectively and in an understanding and professional manner.

The Minister’s inability to establish clarity about the transfer arrangements leaves the whole landscape of education reform somewhat unclear. What is the point of creating structures for the sake of doing so, without the transfer procedure being agreed in advance? The Minister’s approach to the issue of transfer means that it is not unreasonable to say that the Ulster Unionist Party is concerned about the proposals that she has indicated will be in the Bill. Members are also aware that waiting in the wings is the second, unseen Bill, which is another cause for concern.

Indeed, there seems to be some confusion about the statement made recently by the Minister on this subject. At that time, my colleagues and I were given inadequate time in which to consider the statement that she made to the House. We were not sure which of the two scripts that eventually emerged was the one on which the Minister should be questioned.

If the Minister of Education moves the Bill forward, there is the risk that the ESA will grow like Topsy — becoming uncontrollable in size. The ESA will become too remote to deal with individuals or schools on smaller, day-to-day, absolutely fundamental issues. The manner in which the boards have responded to them in the past, although not perfect, has been understanding, and the boards have built up a reservoir of interpersonal skills that have been most useful in many difficult situations that never reach the media or the white ivory tower of the Department of Education headquarters in Bangor. Officers on the ground who are trusted by schools’ principals and staff dealt with those situations.

Ulster Unionists are also concerned that the legislation is proceeding in two parts. That means that we are not seeing it in its totality. Therefore, the ultimate, rather than the intended, outcome is just not known. If the first Bill is agreed without the maximum amount of scrutiny, who is to say what will be introduced in the second Bill? Those are some questions that, unfortunately, remain unanswered.

Given the Minister’s declared intentions, and her approach thus far, it would be naive and foolish not to give the most detailed and rigorous scrutiny to any move that she makes on this or any other issue.

Some people have referred to the curriculum, as proposed, as a “Trojan Horse” that would be used as a vehicle to effect significant change. That is the sort of disturbing sentiment that implies the wholesale destruction of, rather than building on and expanding, what is currently best in the system. Many people see an ideological agenda at work, which is directed by the Education Minister and implemented through a large quango, namely the ESA. Many people also suspect that that agenda will, ultimately, dismantle existing good practice in schools, instead of building on it and extending it across the wide range of abilities and interests with a far greater and more sensible emphasis on the key basic skills of reading, writing and mathematics.

I refer back to the Minister’s opening statement comments about underachievement. How many times must it be reinforced that all those widespread, wholesale changes for the sake of change are not needed? Many problems that concern the Minister and the other Members in the Chamber could be tackled simply by investing properly and systematically in early-years and primary education.

The Minister must talk to her colleagues in secondary education, grammar schools and further education. She must talk to whatever stakeholders of whom she cares to think. They will all tell her the same thing: without basic foundations, the house will fall down.

The world is a difficult place. It gets more difficult by the day due to the credit crunch and the economic downturn. The Assembly will do children no favours if they are thrown into a woolly curriculum instead of being prepared for real life. That is why the education debate must be based on firm educational grounds, rather than on some woolly agenda. That is why the direction that education will take must be decided upon before a big bureaucracy is created to drive forward something that is as yet undecided. Surely, cause must predate effect.

I refer to another comment about a new and different type of body. It has been said that Members do not understand what the new ESA is all about. We fear that we do understand. In the debate, the Minister said that the new body will drive forward and challenge schools. I ask who will challenge schools. From where will the necessary expertise and experience come? Where will the credibility of those persons be established?

Will it be in the educational world, which, for the past 30 years, has wrestled with civil unrest, yet created an oasis of peace and tranquillity in schools and maintained educational abilities and attainments? Or will someone be drafted, or parachuted, in who has no experience or interpersonal skills in dealing with schools as corporate bodies and with the communities that they represent as cohesive units? There is, therefore, much about which I am concerned.

I loved the little tête-à-tête across the Floor of the House between John O’Dowd and Mervyn Storey, in which John would not disagree too much with Mervyn —

Basil McCrea (UUP, Lagan Valley)

And Mervyn would not disagree too much with John.

Ken Robinson (UUP, East Antrim)

Oh, I do not know about that. Mervyn, being an honourable man, will, of course, speak for himself.

(Mr Deputy Speaker [Mr McClarty] in the Chair)

An awful vision of ‘Blue Peter’ flashed across my mind: it was a “Here is one that I made earlier” scenario. John O’Dowd said that the education system must be refined. If it simply needs to be refined, why must it be smashed down and built back up again? If a vehicle exists that delivers something that merely needs to be refined, surely only the mechanic is needed to work at it? The scrapyard man does not need to arrive on the scene.

The boards are losing staff. That is a serious issue, with which I want to deal. The ESA implementation team is out there talking to board members and different sections of the boards’ staff. Presumably, that exercise is meant to reassure people and to focus reform. However, one piece of writing that came before me asked how local is local? There will be regional delivery and local area support teams. I envisage labels going up on doors along corridors throughout the country. We have seen all that before.

One might ask what a local area support team is. It is a multidisciplinary team that works directly with schools in youth-work settings to provide all the support and advice that they require on a day-to-day basis — and here comes the punchline — within an agreed regional framework. Therefore, those local area support teams will do all those wonderful things, which we all wish for and applaud, but they will do it within a regional framework that will be pushed right down from the top.

What is the change going to be? What impact will the new system have? How local is local? Are we talking about the new council boundaries or the existing education and library board boundaries, or will there be a blurring of both? Local groups have worked well in Limavady, Craigavon, Strabane, and elsewhere. What will happen to the hard work that those professionals have undertaken to ascertain and address the real problems and to produce an agreed solution?

Some questions remain, and the jury is still out. However, we will scrutinise the Bill firmly and fairly. As has been said, we cannot afford to get this one wrong.

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

I broadly welcome the fact that we are examining this piece of legislation and moving the process forward. The review of public administration — which was started by the previous Member to speak’s party — commenced a long time ago, and progress has been limited. Education is one key area where change needs to be made.

I do not have a great deal of affection for the multiplicity and tiers in the current system, in which five boards and numerous other bodies oversee education. Different boards have different standards and priorities, which means that there is not the consistency that there should be across Northern Ireland. We broadly welcome the Bill and the opportunity to examine the legislation, but that does not mean that we going to give the Minister carte blanche by endorsing every aspect of the Bill. There are aspects of this piece of legislation that the Committee and Members of the House will seek to change. I urge the Minister to demonstrate a willingness to co-operate on the sensible and rational proposals that Members and the Committee will make.

I require much more clarification on the role of the subregional bodies. I am concerned that they will create more layers of bureaucracy than are necessary. The information that we have been given about those bodies is light, and more is needed. I also have concerns about the intervention powers that the ESA will have to challenge the autonomy of local governing bodies. It has been indicated that the ESA will not micromanage, but the legislation needs to outline that clearly. The ESA must allow some autonomy at local level, particularly in local schools.

I am also concerned that the Council for the Curriculum, Examinations and Assessment (CCEA) will lose its independence, and that the legislation will make it part of the ESA. It may be beneficial — in order to sell our education process outside Northern Ireland and for young people who wish to attend universities outside Northern Ireland — to have an examinations body that is clearly and wholly independent of the education process. It may be in the wider interest to ensure that CCEA is clearly identifiable as an independent arbitrator.

Ken Robinson (UUP, East Antrim)

Does the Member agree that it is vital that our education system’s qualifications are recognised across the UK and throughout the world? The Member has firmly and fairly made the point that our high standards must be recognised and must correlate with high standards elsewhere.

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

I agree; it is crucial that qualifications gained in Northern Ireland are independently credible. That is why I put down that marker.

Some Members mentioned the Youth Service. Many of those services are community-led and would be better managed by councils in association with education bodies. There is a clear linkage, and both sectors should work together, with one taking a lead role. Councils are, probably, better placed to take the lead role and to work closely with the education and skills authority to ensure delivery. I look forward to scrutinising the legislation during the Committee Stage.

Stephen Farry (Alliance, North Down)

I support the Bill’s Second Stage and welcome the progress to date. I am pleased to see detailed legislation, particularly in the field of education, on the Floor of the Assembly.

I concur with the broad rationale and the aims and objectives of the education and skills authority. Educational administration in Northern Ireland is inappropriate for a region of its size and population, and there are too many strands of bureaucracy. It is more important to release funds to invest in front-line services that will benefit pupils and equip them with resources such as IT and books. Moreover, that invest­ment will allow teachers, and the classroom assistants who ably support them, to continue to provide that service. That is how resources should be deployed.

The Bill identifies that delivery of the proposals will, potentially, cost more than £40 million. Although I appreciate that this exercise will incur reorganisation costs, I am slightly concerned — from a Finance Committee rather than an Education Committee perspective — by the degree of that commitment. However, the potential savings of £19 million a year are attractive. It will be interesting to see whether the reorganisation costs can be recovered within two years or whether that process will take longer. All Members will have an interest in that matter.

Dominic Bradley (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Newry and Armagh)

Does the Member agree that we need to have more than “interest”? We need to ensure that the predicted savings are realised.

Stephen Farry (Alliance, North Down)

I agree. The issue of savings does not lie directly with administration — as important as that is — but lies in the functioning and delivery of area planning and sustainable schools. Those areas are closely linked to the creation of the education and skills authority.

There is massive duplication in the Northern Ireland schools system that is caused by bureaucracy and the provision of buildings. Area planning is important in order to make progress on providing a modern schools estate that is fit for purpose and that enhances the opportunity for pupils from different sectors and back­grounds to interact and avail themselves of various courses in different settings. The major challenge is how the education and skills authority will facilitate the robust progression of that area-planning process. If that process is successful, the potential savings to the system — which will be available for reinvestment — should dwarf the potential £19 million saving on bureaucracy. Although it is a work in progress, it is an exciting opportunity that will, potentially, benefit the public purse and the welfare of children in Northern Ireland.

Basil McCrea (UUP, Lagan Valley)

I am pleased to hear that the Member considers it an exciting opportunity and that he is only “slightly” concerned about the financial implications. Has the Alliance Party given up its role of official opposition? Does it now fully endorse all proposals introduced by the DUP and Sinn Féin, or will it play its part in the democratic process?

Stephen Farry (Alliance, North Down)

The Alliance Party, since its formation, has always played its part in the democratic process in Northern Ireland; we are not in the Assembly to provide opposition for opposition’s sake — as some have accused us of doing. We are here to judge each proposal on its merits; we back DUP proposals if we feel that they are the correct way forward —

Mervyn Storey (DUP, North Antrim)

When?

Stephen Farry (Alliance, North Down)

Rare as that may be, before Mervyn gets too excited. At times, we will favour Sinn Féin proposals. That is what the electorate of Northern Ireland expects of all in the Assembly: that we judge issues on their merits rather than playing party politics and judging proposals accoreding to the party proposing them. We are here to focus on the issues and the good of the people of Northern Ireland rather than engage in point-scoring.

The Alliance Party is here as a constructive opposition, and where we find that things are failing, either through the content of proposals or the absence of progress on particular issues, we will not be shy in raising those issues, as we have done over the past 18 months of the Assembly. We look forward to continuing in that role. Of course, there will be details in the Bill that will have to be addressed at Committee Stage, and I have full confidence in my colleague Mr Lunn to address them.

On the issue of the level of elected representation on the board of ESA, we must accept that the context of democracy in Northern Ireland has changed significantly since ESA was first envisaged. We now have full proper devolution at a regional level through this Assembly — I hesitate to use the term “stable democracy”, but I hope that the system that we have will be durable and that we will not be subject to the stop/start politics of the past. It was appropriate for people to advert to the problems of bureaucracy in Northern Ireland before devolution, given that locally elected representatives did not have much say over decisions that were taken — in fact, few people in Northern Ireland had much say over how decisions were made.

Ken Robinson (UUP, East Antrim)

Does the Member agree that one of the reasons that people in Northern Ireland did not have an input to democracy was that there were so many quangos in operation during that period? Perhaps his party had some experience of those quangos.

Basil McCrea (UUP, Lagan Valley)

Given that it chaired most of them.

Stephen Farry (Alliance, North Down)

The reason that we did not have democracy in Northern Ireland was not a matter of quangos; they were a response to the inability to sustain a form of power sharing at a regional level in this place. Several factors contributed to that, but it is not constructive to go into history in any greater detail.

As for local accountability, the primary body to hold ESA to account should be the Assembly — specifically the Committee for Education. I am not convinced that six or seven councillors from across Northern Ireland can provide the missing link of democratic accountability. First, they will not represent each of the 11 new council areas — some areas will not be represented. Secondly, it is unclear how those representatives and the makeup of that representation will be chosen. On the other hand, it is worth stressing that the complexity of education and the background of the different sectors that will be brought together in ESA should place greater emphasis on the range of professional expertise that we have in the system; it should ensure that all perspectives are properly catered for and that no aspect is left out. We do not need so much emphasis on local representation as perhaps there was in the absence of a regional Assembly. Things have moved on.

A point was made about the Libraries Bill. With the benefit of hindsight, I think that we might have made a mistake by focusing so much on one particular issue. My party called for the issue of the transferors to be addressed, and we are glad to see that that has been done. It was not an issue for one side of the House only. We take the issue of equity very seriously.

Although I look forward to our system becoming more secular over time, if one constituency is represented spiritually, we need to ensure that there is a proper balance across the board. That has been achieved in the system.

My other point is in reference to the two different Bills, which is an area about which I have some reservations. It is difficult to take a fully rounded perspective on this piece of legislation without being able to make a judgement on the second piece of legislation. I appreciate that some efforts were made to try to streamline the process.

The second piece of legislation will be critical; it is important that the long title of that Bill will be flexible enough to ensure that any gaps that arise between the two Bills can be addressed at the Second Stage. If we see the other Bill only as this Bill reaches Final Stage, there will not be any appetite to go backwards to try to undo some of the matters that have already been discussed during the Committee Stage. It is important that the second piece of legislation is sufficiently flexible to address concerns.

I particularly look forward to proposals that will place area planning and sustainable schools on a much firmer statutory footing, because those are critical to the future vision of education. Alongside the creation of the education and skills authority, it is important that that type of approach is used so that we have a proper rounded approach to what is a very progressive way forward. It will assist the public purse and — more importantly — it will provide a better solution for the children of Northern Ireland. I support the Second Stage of the Bill.

David McClarty (UUP, East Londonderry)

As Question Time commences at 2.30 pm, I suggest that the House takes its ease until that time. This debate will continue after Question Time, when the next Member to speak will be the Minister of Education, Ms Caitríona Ruane.

Basil McCrea (UUP, Lagan Valley)

On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. We understand that several ministerial statements will be made at 4.00 pm. Will you advise what precedence takes place? When will we be likely to rejoin this debate?

David McClarty (UUP, East Londonderry)

This debate will continue after Question Time. The statements will follow in due course.

The debate stood suspended.

office of the first minister and deputy first minister

David McClarty (UUP, East Londonderry)

It is time for questions to the Office of the First Minister and deputy First Minister. I remind Members that the Speaker advised Whips recently that the practice of reading out supplementary questions should cease. I remind Members, therefore, that supplementary questions should be concise and should not be read out.

Danny Kennedy (UUP, Newry and Armagh)

1. asked the Office of the First Minister and deputy First Minister to outline the stages for the devolution of policing and justice powers; and which of these stages have specified timeframes. (AQO 1476/09)

Daithí McKay (Sinn Féin, North Antrim)

5. asked the Office of the First Minister and deputy First Minister for an update on the proposed transfer of policing and justice powers. (AQO 1607/09)

Martin McGuinness (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

With your permission, a LeasCheann Comhairle, I will answer questions one and five together. Following discussions, the First Minister and I have reached agreement on a number of arrangements relating to how the devolution of policing and justice functions will be legislated for until May 2012.

On 18 November 2008, the First Minister and I attended a meeting of the Assembly and Executive Review Committee to offer advice on those agreed arrangements in the context of the Committee’s work on the devolution of policing and justice. Our letter to the Chairperson of the Committee, which set out those arrangements, and a paper on an agreed process in relation to the devolution of policing and justice, were made public also.

Since that time, we have held preliminary discussions with the Secretary of State on the funding allocation for a new Department of justice, and we have briefed the Executive on developments to date. The agreements that were reached include a series of 36 steps to bring about the transfer of policing and justice powers. That process should proceed without undue delay. We are determined to work faithfully through those steps in order to build the necessary community confidence, and we will consult throughout the process.

The Assembly and Executive Review Committee is preparing a report on the modalities of devolution, which were informed by the agreements that we have reached. When the modalities are agreed by the Assembly, the way will be open for the preparation of the necessary consequential legislation that will be enacted at Westminster and by the Assembly.

There are other practical and structural issues to be addressed, and we look forward to further work from the Assembly and Executive Review Committee on those.

Finance will be a key issue, and the First Minister and I have held discussions already with the Secretary of State, which will lead quickly to a process of engagement with relevant British Government Departments.

It will be for the First Minister and me to table a motion requesting the devolution of policing and justice powers, which, when passed — and following the appropriate motion at Westminster — will give effect to the transfer of functions, election of a justice Minister and the formal appointment of an Attorney General.

I am sure that Members will appreciate the complexity of the process that I have described. However, the First Minister and I want devolution to happen without undue delay.

Danny Kennedy (UUP, Newry and Armagh)

I am grateful to the deputy First Minister for his answer. Does he agree with the sentiments that were expressed by the Prime Minister in the House of Commons last week that the devolution of policing and justice to Northern Ireland will occur in the next few months? I would be grateful for a yes or no answer.

Martin McGuinness (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

In my lengthy answer, I described the process that has been agreed between us. Members will know that we are seeking to allow the Assembly and Executive Review Committee to complete its work to agree the modalities, and we have said that ad infinitum during the past number of weeks. We have given a strong lead with regard to how we see the issue developing. Ultimately, legislation will have to be enacted at Westminster and at the Assembly.

There is also the very important element of building community confidence. The First Minister and I have said repeatedly that we are determined to lead from the front on the issue.

Daithí McKay (Sinn Féin, North Antrim)

Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. I welcome the immense progress that has been made on the issue. Will the deputy First Minister inform the House of the time frame for the completion of the Assembly and Executive Review Committee’s report? Following the completion of the report, what will be the next steps of the Committee and the Assembly?

Martin McGuinness (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

Following the Committee’s earlier inquiry into the devolution of policing and justice, which concluded in March 2008, and in response to our joint letter of 20 July inviting it to undertake further work, the Committee has been mandated by the Assembly to review progress on the implementation and resolution of outstanding issues that were identified in the March report and to consider any other matters that are related to the devolution of policing and justice.

The Committee has taken forward a work programme to address those matters. The First Minister and I have offered the Committee advice to inform its consideration of the issues, and we met the Committee and wrote to the Chairperson on that basis on 18 November. I understand that the Committee has agreed to finalise its first report before the Christmas recess.

George Robinson (DUP, East Londonderry)

Does the deputy First Minister agree that the devolution of policing and justice is a matter that must be taken cautiously?

Martin McGuinness (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

I agree that the approach that we have taken forward, in conjunction with that of the Assembly and Executive Review Committee, tends to suggest that we are being very thorough in how we deal with the issue. We are conscious that the issue must be well handled. It is an important issue for the people that we represent and, therefore, it does not allow us the luxury of being slipshod. We will conduct the business of ensuring the transfer of powers on policing and justice in an orderly fashion. The programme that we have agreed will deliver that, and it will be delivered in conjunction with the programme that I have outlined.

Stephen Farry (Alliance, North Down)

I also welcome the progress that has been made. Will the deputy First Minister outline to the House in a little more detail the discussions that he and the First Minister have had with the Treasury in relation to the funding of devolution? Does he agree that it would be unreasonable to expect the people of Northern Ireland to pick up the tab for the cost of dealing with the past?

Martin McGuinness (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

The issue of funding is important. The devolution of policing and justice powers should be accompanied with adequate resources to meet the challenge of the new responsibilities and to deal with future pressures. The First Minister and I have met the Secretary of State and discussed a process for engaging on budget issues. We may also meet directly with key stakeholders in the criminal justice field to discuss finance.

The Member has raised legitimate concerns. In dealing with the British Government and the different Departments, we are conscious of our responsibility to address what is seen by many in policing and justice as a considerable shortfall. The Member has also identified added pressures, and all of those matters will be discussed during the course of the next few weeks.

David McClarty (UUP, East Londonderry)

Questions 2 and 3 have been withdrawn.

Robert Coulter (UUP, North Antrim)

4. asked the Office of the First Minister and deputy First Minister for its assessment of the key age equality issues and what policy initiatives it has formulated to address these. (AQO 1486/09)

Martin McGuinness (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

Under public service agreement (PSA) 7 in the Programme for Government, we are committed to delivering a strong, independent voice for older people. The recent appointment of Dame Joan Harbison as the Older People’s Advocate is an indication of how seriously we take that commitment. We are aware of the wide range of issues that impact on older people, such as the recent increases in the cost of living. The Executive are introducing a range of measures in order to alleviate the burden on vulnerable groups, including older people. These measures include action on benefit uptake, free public transport and, as I have mentioned already, the appointment of the advocate.

The Department for Work and Pensions announced recently that its age strategy is to be reviewed and refreshed. In the near future, we also intend to review our older people’s strategy ‘Ageing in an Inclusive Society’ to identify areas where it might be improved and strengthened. We will, of course, take the views of key stakeholders and the departmental Committee as part of that process. We also continue to keep equality legislation under review and monitor developments on age and other legislation in Europe and elsewhere.

Robert Coulter (UUP, North Antrim)

Will the deputy First Minister give an undertaking to introduce age-proofing of all Government-sponsored legislation and administrative Orders coming before the Assembly in order to protect the interests of older people?

Martin McGuinness (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

We will give great consideration to the Member’s point. It is important to recognise the incredible contribution that older people make to society. It has been interesting to note over the past months — year, even — that the rights of older people have come to the fore in all sorts of discussions all over the world. We have a duty and a responsibility to ensure that we put in place processes that protect the rights of our older citizens, who have, in effect, built the society in which we live today.

Dolores Kelly (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Upper Bann)

Given the interest in equality, when might we expect the single equality legislation to be introduced? The deputy First Minister has already mentioned the need to tackle fuel poverty, so will Minister Ritchie’s paper on fuel poverty now be approved by the Executive?

Martin McGuinness (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

The single equality legislation will be introduced as quickly as possible. The warm homes scheme is Government’s primary tool to tackle fuel poverty. It offers a range of insulation and heating measures to eligible householders. The scheme is oversubscribed and applications are being prioritised. Applicants with no central heating, solid-fuel or Economy 7 heating will be treated as a priority. The Department for Social Development is consulting on proposed changes to the scheme, and the consultation exercise will run until 19 December. As the Member said, Minister Ritchie established a fuel poverty task force in May 2008. She has prepared an Executive paper, which the Executive will consider at the earliest opportunity.

Winter fuel payments are intended to help to combat fuel poverty among older people, who are specifically targeted for help as they are particularly vulnerable to the effects of cold weather and are more likely to be on fixed incomes. For 2008-09, payments of £250 will be made to people over 60 years of age, and those over 80 years of age will receive £400.

David McClarty (UUP, East Londonderry)

Question 5 has already been grouped with question 1.

Jennifer McCann (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

6. asked the Office of the First Minister and deputy First Minister to outline how the recommendations of the West Belfast and Greater Shankill Task Forces Report 2002 compares with other anti-poverty initiatives in the Department. (AQO 1590/09)

Martin McGuinness (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

As an Executive, we are committed, under PSA 7, to drive a programme across Government to reduce poverty and address inequality and disadvantage wherever it exists. In addition, PSA 12 commits to delivering the agreed overall objectives of the West Belfast and Greater Shankill Task Forces within the Programme for Government period. We recognise the parallel between some of the recommendations of the joint task forces for west Belfast and the greater Shankill area and some of the work that the Office of the First Minister and deputy First Minister (OFMDFM) is progressing to tackle poverty and social inclusion, in so far as they relate to improving employability and job creation. Both approaches recognise that the best route out of poverty is to have a good job with a decent wage.

The policy on poverty and social inclusion that OFMDFM is advancing covers a broad spectrum of need. That need will change at different times in people’s lives and will vary from one vulnerable group to another, and also across different geographical areas. For that reason, the Executive recently adopted Lifetime Opportunities as their overarching strategy for tackling poverty and social exclusion. We remain committed to the full implementation of the Programme for Government’s PSAs and action plans, including those related to tackling poverty and implementing the recommendations of the West Belfast and Greater Shankill Task Forces. Given the nature of poverty and disadvantage, many actions will undoubtedly cross departmental boundaries, and it is my intention that my Department will co-ordinate those cross-cutting actions through a ministerial subcommittee of the Executive.

Jennifer McCann (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

The Minister has already gone some way towards answering my supplementary question. Given the PSA commitment on the West Belfast and Greater Shankill Task Forces Report 2002, are the Executive committed to meeting their obligations in the Programme for Government?

Martin McGuinness (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

The inclusion of the task forces’ objectives in the Programme for Government is a clear indication of the importance that Government attach to the work.

By including the objectives of the task force in the Programme for Government, the normal apparatus for monitoring, reviewing and reporting on PSA targets will apply. Like all aspects of the Programme for Government, we are committed to meeting all the targets in our PSAs and work plans. The overarching goals of the Programme for Government complement those of the task force.

Although the task forces are critical of the lack of specific area initiatives, that does not mean that the needs of west Belfast and the greater Shankill will be lost in the Programme for Government. It should be welcomed when Departments can meet community needs through their mainstream activities, which are ultimately more sustainable than short-term initiatives.

Nelson McCausland (DUP, Belfast North)

Will the deputy First Minister agree that there was much more buy-in to the task-force process in the west Belfast area than there was in the greater Shankill area, and that the reasons for that differential provide lessons that can be learned for future initiatives? Will he also agree that the task force process has been somewhat overtaken by the emerging strategic regeneration frameworks for west Belfast and the greater Shankill?

Martin McGuinness (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

People will have their own views about the differential in the buy-in to the task force process between west Belfast and the greater Shankill. As an MLA who represents the area, the Member will be more aware than most as to whether the level of interest towards the task force process in the greater Shankill area was appropriate. There is a duty and responsibility on all of us to ensure that every section of our community benefits from the work that will — hopefully — flow from the task force and the implementation of our public service agreements.

The Executive are conscious of the need to ensure that the work that we are involved in, and the programmes and processes that we implement, make a difference to people on the ground. Without fear or favour to any section of our community, if people are under pressure in any area, it is our responsibility to do all that we can to ensure that they benefit from the work of Government. We are very determined to ensure that the people of the greater Shankill and west Belfast benefit from the work of Government and the Executive.

Ken Robinson (UUP, East Antrim)

My question has already been answered, to some degree.

David McClarty (UUP, East Londonderry)

Mr Basil McCrea is not in his place for question 7.

Raymond McCartney (Sinn Féin, Foyle)

8. asked the Office of the First Minister and deputy First Minister to outline the achievements of the Integrated Development Fund in the regeneration of (i) Derry/Londonderry; (ii) North Belfast; and (iii) West Belfast. (AQO 1604/09)

Martin McGuinness (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

The integrated development fund (IDF) has been successful in promoting social and economic regeneration in both the north-west and the west Belfast/greater Shankill areas through the extensive range of projects that it has supported. To date, eight north-west IDF projects have been formally approved, and £11·2 million from the IDF has been made available. The total cost of those projects is £40·1 million. Those projects include the development of a world-class research centre of excellence at the Magee campus of the University of Ulster, which will cost £6 million, and the construction and development of the Skeoge Enterprise Park, which will cost £1·1 million.

In west Belfast/greater Shankill, 15 projects have been formally approved, with £17·7 million made available from the IDF towards the total cost of £51·1 million. The funding that has been made available includes £1·5 million towards the Suffolk social economy project to provide retail units and commercial office space. Funding of £4 million has also been made available for the arterial routes improvement project to help regenerate key arterial routes into the city centre. A further £7 million was made available for the task force education initiative to support delivery of a key work programme that focuses on educational achievement and employability.

I am happy to provide the Member with more details of projects on request. Although north Belfast was not one of the pilot areas selected, some of the west Belfast/greater Shankill projects have impacted on the North Belfast constituency area. For example, as the workforce and economic development centre, which received £1·2 million from the IDF, provides outreach programmes to ensure that training opportunities are widely known in both the west Belfast/greater Shankill and north Belfast areas.

The arterial routes project, which receives £4 million from the fund, is designed to undertake an environmental improvement scheme in several arterial routes, including the Crumlin Road and the upper Shankill. In addition, the task force education initiative benefited areas of north Belfast. That remains an Executive priority, and they have made additional funding available to agencies there that are helping to improve the social and economic situation for the local community.

Raymond McCartney (Sinn Féin, Foyle)

Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as a fhreagra. I thank the Minister for his answer and for his offer to send me further information. Will any of the current projects be affected by the closure of the IDF?

Martin McGuinness (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

All the approved IDF projects will be entitled to funding over timescales agreed by Ministers. The projects that remain to be submitted for approval will, subject to the provision and approval of the required economic appraisals, be considered for funding support on their merits.

Mark Durkan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

I thank the deputy First Minister for his answer and for comprehensively showing the good work of many projects that are supported by the integrated development fund, including the centre of excellence in intelligent systems at Magee campus in Derry, significant public-realm schemes, the walled city signature tourism —

David McClarty (UUP, East Londonderry)

Order. It is Question Time, Mr Durkan.

Mark Durkan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

Will the Minister assure us that those approved projects will not be affected by the closure? Will he also explain how the ending of the integrated development fund is justified when it has enabled funding to projects across sectors and Departments that would otherwise not have gained it?

Martin McGuinness (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

The work of further supporting the IDF projects will continue and further submissions that have been made will be considered on their merits. We must recognise that there is a huge job of work to be done and there are outstanding projects that have to be tackled. We believe that the Executive can tackle them comprehensively.

I do not believe that any area will suffer unduly because of the ending of the IDF. However, it places additional responsibility and burden on all Departments and on the Executive to ensure that good viable projects that help in the regeneration of communities throughout the North will be supported. Of course, that is all subject to available funding.

Naomi Long (Alliance, Belfast East)

9. asked the Office of the First Minister and deputy First Minister when it is expected that the Executive will have cleared the backlog of papers that arose from the failure of the Executive to meet for five months. (AQO 1574/09)

Martin McGuinness (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

The First Minister and I made a commitment that additional meetings of the Executive will take place over and above their regular schedule to ensure that all outstanding business is dealt with as soon as possible. We will therefore have held at least two scheduled meetings, two additional meetings and a meeting of an Executive subgroup before Christmas. We made excellent progress at our meetings of 20 November and 27 November on agreeing a total of 28 papers that were awaiting Executive decision. We have also taken forward the development of a strategy to support the local economy against the effects of the global economic downturn.

Executive business is a continuous process of consultation and agreement on draft papers submitted by Ministers. There will always be Executive papers at various stages of consideration, but I am confident that we are reaching the stage where each agreed draft paper will proceed routinely to the next meeting of the Executive.

Naomi Long (Alliance, Belfast East)

When the Executive were in their period of non-operation, there was a discussion that priority would be given to tackling issues of fuel poverty when the Executive returned to normal business. What stage is that process at, and when are we likely to hear announcements from the Executive?

Martin McGuinness (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

During that difficult and unacceptable period Ministers continued with their work. The economic downturn, the credit crunch, and the fuel poverty to which citizens are now being subjected are the subject of ongoing deliberations and discussions at the Executive.

The Executive are treating those matters as a top priority. When the Assembly adjourns today, the Executive will meet around teatime in order to continue the work that we have been engaged in, and we will meet again next Thursday. At the end of that process, we hope to be able to announce a package that will make a difference.

David Burnside (UUP, South Antrim)

During the five months in which no official meetings of the Executive took place, how many meetings did the deputy First Minister have with the First Minister in order to discuss the transfer of policing and justice powers to the Assembly and the Executive? When did those meetings conclude with a sign from 10 Downing Street that policing and justice powers were to be transferred within a couple of months? Will the deputy First Minister outline the sequence of meetings and events between him and the First Minister and 10 Downing Street that culminated in that decision?

Martin McGuinness (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

In those five months, the First Minister and I met regularly. I cannot give the Member a figure off the top of my head, but we discussed many issues, not only the transfer of policing and justice powers. We did our job in our joint office — the Office of the First Minister and deputy First Minister. Regardless of how difficult the issues were that we had to deal with, neither of us ran into a corner and huffed. We did not get into a situation in which we did not speak to each other.

I know that a situation arose during the first Administration in which the First Minister and the deputy First Minister were not speaking to each other. That has never happened to us, because we have shown ourselves to be mature politicians. [Interruption.] I will not identify any Member who has just laughed. We have shown ourselves to be mature politicians who recognised that solutions had to be found to the difficult issues that we faced. We did that; we met regularly and consistently, and we finally found a way forward.

There will be other challenges, on other issues, in the time ahead. Our job, as leaders in the Assembly, in the Executive and in the country is to be solution-seekers to problems. That is the mode in which the First Minister and I will find ourselves. We should be happy that we have found a way forward, and we should now ensure that the transfer of policing and justice powers will happen in line with the programme that is laid before us.

Alasdair McDonnell (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast South)

I thank the deputy First Minister for his answer. Will he tell the House what other items of business, having cleared all the earlier preparatory processes, have yet to be decided on by OFMDFM for the Executive’s consideration?

Martin McGuinness (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

The work of the Executive continues. There will always be issues to resolve during the lifetime of this Executive and this Assembly; there is an almost never-ending list. When we leave the House today, Ministers will meet to deal with issues that are relevant to the people whom we represent. For example, the Assembly has discussed the economic downturn, the credit crunch and fuel poverty, having recognised that we must deal with those issues in the context of a global economic storm. There is a range of issues to discuss. If I were to go into the detail of every single one, I would be here for another 30 minutes. I will write to the Member and give him the details of those issues if he so wishes.

Declan O'Loan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, North Antrim)

10. asked the Office of the First Minister and deputy First Minister to outline the roles of the junior Ministers as “Children’s Champions” and how they have carried out this role. (AQO 1521/09)

Martin McGuinness (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

The junior Ministers have responsibility for the co-ordination of policy that has an impact on the lives of children and young people. Their role is to ensure that those issues remain high on the Government’s agenda. To achieve that aim, the junior Ministers jointly chair the ministerial subcommittee on children and young people, which the Executive established.

The subcommittee has identified and is progressing six key priority areas for action and has agreed that hearing the voice of young people will underpin its work and that of the subgroups. The junior Ministers are also driving forward with the implementation of the 10-year strategy for children and young people. They chair a strategy planning and review group, which includes key statutory, voluntary and community sector representatives and is advising them on a three-year draft strategy action plan.

The junior Ministers have a 12-month work plan, integral to which is continued engagement with young people and children. As part of that, recently, the junior Ministers and the Speaker jointly hosted a youth debate in the Assembly Chamber. The topic for the debate focused on the causes and effects of young people being drawn into antisocial behaviour, including underage drinking and drug-taking. It was attended by approximately 140 young people, and the junior Ministers have undertaken to relay the points that were raised back to the ministerial subcommittee. The junior Ministers continue to examine, and have taken into account, other ways of engaging with children and young people to ensure that they have the opportunity to put forward their views on the key issues affecting their lives.

David McClarty (UUP, East Londonderry)

I remind the Members who were not in their places at 2.30 pm that the Speaker has recently spoken to Whips and has asked that the practice of reading supplementary questions cease. Therefore, I ask that Members put forward concise supplementary questions.

health, social services and public safety

David McClarty (UUP, East Londonderry)

Mrs O’Neill is not her place for question 1.

Stephen Farry (Alliance, North Down)

2. asked the Minister of Health, Social Services and Public Safety for an update on the delivery of efficiency savings under his Department’s current budget. (AQO 1582/09)

Michael McGimpsey (UUP, Belfast South)

My Department is monitoring the achievement of efficiencies on a quarterly basis. Against a target of £118 million for 2008-09, the assessment of savings achieved as at 30 September is £48 million. I anticipate delivery of the full £118 million for 2008-09, and I am working closely with trusts on their proposals for years two and three.

Stephen Farry (Alliance, North Down)

I thank the Minister for his answer. I know that he has a flawed budget with which to work. However, no doubt he is aware of the major concern across the community about efficiency savings. Therefore, what steps is the Minister taking to police how the trusts deliver efficiency savings to ensure that what we have is changes to policies and practices, rather than simple cuts?

Michael McGimpsey (UUP, Belfast South)

The Department monitors savings quarterly. That is an exercise that we undertake. As I said, I am determined that those savings will not be cuts, but efficiencies. The efficiencies are not a target that I set; rather, all the parties in the Executive agreed to them.

Regarding the concern that the Member raised, the trusts have undertaken a series of consultations about their proposals. I encourage Dr Farry, and anyone else, to come forward with their concerns. Nothing is settled as yet. By early in the new year, the results of those consultations will be given to me. If there is consensus, I do not have a decision to make. If there is not consensus, I have a decision to make. I am keen to hear the views of others on the matter, and I am particularly keen to hear from Members who do not think that this is a good idea. They must tell me what their good idea is and how that will be evaluated against financial efficiencies.

John McCallister (UUP, South Down)

Does the Minister agree that there has been a certain amount of scaremongering about 700 nurses being sacked and that that story is totally false and ridiculous? Does he also agree that some Members of the DUP have been opportunistic in the way in which they have portrayed that story, especially as it was them who demanded efficiency savings and voted against increases in the budget that the Minister secured last year?

Michael McGimpsey (UUP, Belfast South)

The proposals are for a reduction of just over 700 nursing posts. It should be borne in mind that that is over a three-year period and that over the same period, there will be natural wastage from more than 2,000 nurses either retiring or moving job.

Therefore, such a proposal will easily be accommodated, and I am confident that compulsory redundancies can be avoided. Those issues are out for consultation, and if anyone has better ideas, I am listening, as long as those are serious ideas that show me where the savings will come from, rather than opportunistic proposals.

I agree with the Member. When Peter Robinson was Finance Minister, he talked about efficiencies; now Members from his party talk about cuts. Given the performance of some DUP Members during last week’s debate on the proposal for a public health agency, and the fact that the same Mr Robinson was happy to agree at the Executive to the establishment of a public health agency, it seems that one or two members of the DUP have gone more than a little astray from their party leader’s position.

Mark Durkan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

Does the Minister believe that reducing total nursing numbers, removing maternity beds and reducing psychiatric intensive care unit beds at Altnagelvin Hospital are acceptable efficiency savings? How do those and the other cuts and closures that are being proposed square with the promises that were made at the time of the Programme for Government, which, we were told, was as good as it gets?

Michael McGimpsey (UUP, Belfast South)

Those specific proposals have been made as part of a consultation process and given that the Member has strong views on the matter, I encourage him to contribute to the consultation. I remind him that the Bamford proposals include a 10% reduction in mental-health admissions. Consequently, the number of beds will be reduced.

The proposals on the numbers of nursing posts are concerned with the way in which services are delivered, with alternative delivery and with having less reliance on acute services and more reliance on services in the community. Patients tell us that they want domiciliary-based care, particularly with wrap-around care packages, and they do better from such care. Elderly people in particular want to avoid residential homes and nursing homes for as long as possible, and they want to be maintained in their own homes. All the proposals have a consequence for staffing, and staff may move from one area of provision to another.

The proposals are out for consultation, and I will listen hard to anyone who has better ideas and better ways of providing savings. I made a deal that every penny of the £700 million of health efficiency savings would go back into health. Those moneys are already earmarked and are being spent on the delivery of new services, and I do not want to have to cut the new services in order to fund the efficiencies.

Willie Clarke (Sinn Féin, South Down)

3. asked the Minister of Health, Social Services and Public Safety for his assessment of the ability of the new mental-health facility on the Craigavon Area Hospital site to cater for the projected number of people with mental-health problems in the Southern Health and Social Care Trust area. (AQO 1622/09)

Michael McGimpsey (UUP, Belfast South)

Major investment in community infrastructure is planned to support the new Bluestone unit at Craigavon Area Hospital, which is to consist of 74 beds, in order to ensure that the facility can cater for the projected number of people with mental-health problems. That will include the opening, in February 2009, of two resource centres in Craigavon and Dungannon. Together with an existing day hospital in Newry, those will offer 56 places a day, which will prevent inappropriate admissions to hospital and facilitate early discharge from hospital.

Enhancement of the existing home-treatment team is planned to include patients with functional mental illness who are over 65 and are treated at home. Over the next three years, the trust is also investing in primary mental-healthcare services, which will substantially reduce demand for inpatient beds at the Bluestone unit. Services will still be based at St Luke’s Hospital. Those developments are in line with the Bamford vision, which advocates that community care is preferable to inpatient treatment.

Willie Clarke (Sinn Féin, South Down)

Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. I thank the Minister for his answer. What level of provision for mental health will be available at the new Downe Hospital?

Michael McGimpsey (UUP, Belfast South)

I would have needed warning of the question in order to provide precise details of the facilities for mental-health services in the new Downe Hospital. It is a new, enhanced local hospital, but, because of the tradition of mental-health provision in Downpatrick, there will be in-patient provision there. I cannot give the Member the number of beds, although it is on record; however, I cannot carry all those numbers in my head. If the Member is keen, I will write to him about that.

Maurice (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

I am sure that the House will be reassured by what the Minister has said today; in particular about the provision of 74 beds at Craigavon Area Hospital. Does the Minister agree with me that, regrettably, a stigma is attached to mental ill health? It should not be so, but, unfortunately, it is. Will the Minister detail for the House what steps he will take to break that stigma down?

Michael McGimpsey (UUP, Belfast South)

Lord Morrow makes an important point about stigma being attached to mental ill health. Mental-health needs in Northern Ireland are commensurably much higher than in the rest of the United Kingdom. One of the paradoxes that I have inherited is that, historically, our expenditure on mental health is much lower than in the rest of the United Kingdom.

Our vision for the future is based on the Bamford Review and its recommendations. It involves sending out key messages aimed at the prevention of mental ill health and it includes new mental-health and incapacity legislation; a shift from hospital-based to community-based services; the development of specialist services for children and young people; and the provision of an adequately trained workforce. Those are some of the messages in the Bamford Review, and we are implementing them to address mental ill health, learning disability and dementia.

Those provisions will help to address the stigma attached to mental ill health. One of our biggest problems is the denial of mental-health problems. Mental ill health is as important as physical ill health. If one is physically unwell, one will go to a doctor; people must be prepared to do the same when they are mentally unwell.

Carmel Hanna (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast South)

I thank the Minister for his responses and acknowledge the excellence of the facility at Craigavon. Does he agree with me that, as part of the Bamford vision, there is a need for more supported accommodation for patients who may never be able to live independently?

Michael McGimpsey (UUP, Belfast South)

I agree fully. We are examining the provision of residential homes, nursing homes and specialist homes, but there is also a need for supported-living facilities. That is a crucial factor that will allow us to re-settle those with learning disabilities who have had a hospital address for a long period in a community setting. It affects other areas as well.

Ian McCrea (DUP, Mid Ulster)

4. asked the Minister of Health, Social Services and Public Safety what action he is taking to ensure that acute services are retained at the Mid-Ulster Hospital. (AQO 1478/09)

Michael McGimpsey (UUP, Belfast South)

The Mid-Ulster Hospital will be developed as a local hospital as set out in ‘Developing Better Services: Modernising Hospitals and Reforming Structures’. Acute services for the people of the Northern Health and Social Services Board area will be provided largely at the Antrim Area and Causeway Hospitals. That remains my position. However, I am committed to the provision of safe, high-quality services for all the people of Northern Ireland, and changes to the services provided at the Mid-Ulster Hospital should be made only when robust, alternative arrangements are in place at other hospitals.

Ian McCrea (DUP, Mid Ulster)

I am disappointed that the Minister has already made up his mind on the downgrading of services at the Mid-Ulster Hospital. Our neighbouring hospital, the South Tyrone, has no acute services —

David McClarty (UUP, East Londonderry)

Order. This is Question Time, Mr McCrea. Please ask a question.

Ian McCrea (DUP, Mid Ulster)

If the Minister has not taken a final decision, will he commit to retaining acute services at the Mid-Ulster Hospital?

Michael McGimpsey (UUP, Belfast South)

Mr McCrea should acquaint himself with the document ‘Developing Better Services’ because it is one of the overarching strategies that the Department has been following for a number of years. The strategy does not simply suggest the downgrading of services, but, instead, suggests the changing of services. Substantial investment will go into the Mid-Ulster Hospital, and I will be able to talk about that in due course.

However, as far as acute services are concerned, because they are so specialised, and due to the attendant risks involved, they must be provided in an acute hospital setting. There are nine acute hospitals in Northern Ireland, two of which are in the Northern Board area — the Causeway Hospital and the Antrim Area Hospital. Those hospitals will provide acute services for Mid Ulster, meaning that the vast majority of those living in that area will be within 45 minutes of an acute hospital and all residents will be within one hour’s journey. As far as the Mid-Ulster Hospital is concerned, there will be consultation, but as far as Mr McCrea and everyone else are concerned, the direction in which the Department is heading in relation to hospital services is clear.

Francie Molloy (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

I thank the Minister for his answer. However, I remind him that the Ulster Unionist Party had a policy of rebuilding hospital services, and gave a commitment to the Mid-Ulster Hospital. Where does that commitment sit now?

I question whether the residents of towns such as Pomeroy are within 45 minutes of Antrim Area Hospital. Given the failure of that hospital to provide safe services, is the Minister sure that he is providing quality of service to the people of Mid Ulster?

Michael McGimpsey (UUP, Belfast South)

That last remark about Antrim Area Hospital not providing safe services demonstrates a lack of perception on Mr Molloy’s behalf. It is a disgraceful remark for him to make and it is disgraceful that he is scaremongering in that manner.

We cannot have acute hospitals in every town and village in Northern Ireland. We have nine acute hospitals in addition to the Mater Hospital in Belfast, which also provides acute services. That is well beyond the recommended provision for the size of our population.

Furthermore, the Member is aware that I have received demand after demand to make the Health Service efficient; that is what I am doing, and in doing so, tough choices have to be made. There is an important future for the Mid-Ulster Hospital, but it will not be in delivering acute services. It will deliver services in areas such as day-case surgery; diagnostics; care for the elderly; inpatient care; rehabilitation and assessment; and palliative care for inpatients. The hospital will also be collocated with a health and care centre, which is a major investment that will provide — for example — a nurse-led minor injuries unit. That will represent an important service provision for the people of that area.

However, in relation to acute services, Antrim Area Hospital is the closest hospital. I say to Mr Molloy that it is safer to provide acute services in a hospital such as Antrim Area Hospital than it is in a small hospital such as the Mid-Ulster Hospital. Although the staff in the Mid-Ulster Hospital are very professional and dedicated, it would be better to make the full service available in a larger hospital given the throughput.

Patsy McGlone (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Mid Ulster)

Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. Will the Minister assure the House that the level of acute-service provision at the Mid-Ulster Hospital will be retained until a viable alternative is available elsewhere?

Michael McGimpsey (UUP, Belfast South)

I remind Mr McGlone of my previous answer, when I said that changes to the services provided at the Mid-Ulster Hospital should only be made when robust alternative arrangements are in place at other hospitals.

Tommy Gallagher (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

5. asked the Minister of Health, Social Services and Public Safety for his assessment of the impact of the Comprehensive Spending Review on services in the Western Health and Social Care Trust Area. (AQO 1543/09)

Michael McGimpsey (UUP, Belfast South)

The comprehensive spending review (CSR) will secure real improvements in services for patients and clients across the Western Health and Social Care Trust, in addition to other major regional initiatives. Those improvements include the roll-out of the human papillomavirus vaccination; remote monitoring for people with long-term conditions; enhanced child protection arrangements; and improved ambulance response times.

By 2010-11, the Western Trust will benefit from an additional £9 million each year for mental-health learning disability and long-term conditions; £3·3 million for children services; £6 million to address demographic pressures; and £4·8 million for new drug therapies. Other provision will include £3 million for acute renal, cardio-vascular and stroke services; £4·3 million for elective-care access; £1·2 million for disability services; and £4·4 million for service improvements and quality and safety.

As well as benefiting from £17 million of capital investment in ambulance services, I am committed to providing the Western Health and Social Care Trust with substantial capital investment over the next three years.

Tommy Gallagher (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

I acknowledge the Minister’s comments and his work in capital investment, particularly at the Omagh and Enniskillen hospitals. Does the Minister accept that, as a result of the comprehensive spending review, severe cuts have been made across all trusts, but that those cuts are having an extremely severe impact on the Western Health and Social Care Trust because that is the only trust that inherited a legacy of debt? Furthermore, will the Minister outline any steps that he can take, in his Department or in the Executive, to remove that millstone of debt from the shoulders of the people in the Western Health and Social Care Trust?

Michael McGimpsey (UUP, Belfast South)

I am not aware of a deficit of the order of which Tommy Gallagher appears to be aware. The annual operating budget of the Western Health and Social Care Trust rises every year throughout the CSR period. The spending power uplift totals will cumulatively be 20·8% at the end of the three years. Therefore, the Western Health and Social Care Trust is, in fact, not going backwards — there are not cuts; the spending power is rising.

Certainly, changes have been proposed as part of the efficiency requirement of 3% per annum over three years. I have to find some £700 million in efficiency savings over the next three years. I would rather not have to do that — it is much nicer to have a quiet life — but I do not hold the purse strings. I am not in charge of finance; that is the DUP together with Sinn Féin, who actually operate this Government. They make the decisions on where the money goes, and this is where I am.

The health budget is down by £300 million this year, and by the end of the three-year period, our deficit will be about £600 million in spending power in comparison with the average in England. If Members such as Mr Ian McCrea want money spent and services maintained in Mid Ulster or anywhere else, it is not me to whom they need to talk: it is the Finance Minister.

Claire McGill (Sinn Féin, West Tyrone)

Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. Given what the Minister just said about services in the Western Health and Social Care Trust, if the responses to the consultation on the proposed closure of Greenfield residential care home in Strabane are that the home should remain open, will the Western Health and Social Care Trust accept that, and keep the home open? Go raibh maith agat.

Michael McGimpsey (UUP, Belfast South)

As far as any proposals and consultations in any trust area are concerned, the trust will, of course, have to listen to the proposals. However, those proposals will have to be based on sound provision of health and social care services in that particular area. They will also have to be able to demonstrate an alternative, because there is no way out of this unless the Member can persuade the DUP to put their hands in their pockets. The Member will, therefore, have to show me an alternative. However, no hard and fast decisions have been made.

We are in a consultation process and listening to all the feedback from that consultation, but each of those proposals has a financial tag that has to be met. Otherwise, all the other provisions about which I talked to Mr Gallagher — such as £3·3 million in children’s services, £4·8 million for new drug therapies, £4·3 million for elective care access, money for disability services, service developments, and so on — will have to be cut.

Kieran Deeny (Independent, West Tyrone)

I thank the Minister for his commitment to financial investment in the Western Health and Social Care Trust. Does that investment include the proposed midwifery-led maternity unit for Omagh on which we were promised that the Minister would make a decision at the start of the year?

In Downpatrick, similar proposals got a positive response, which was good for the mothers of east Down. What now for the mothers of Tyrone?

Michael McGimpsey (UUP, Belfast South)

I welcome Dr Deeny back to Question Time. There has been a consultation on the proposal for a midwifery unit in Omagh. The recommendations are with me, and I am deliberating on them. Other issues around Omagh hospital have to be settled, and that is what I am doing at the moment.

Naomi Long (Alliance, Belfast East)

6. asked the Minister of Health, Social Services and Public Safety to report on respite care for people with learning difficulties. (AQO 1581/09)

Michael McGimpsey (UUP, Belfast South)

Respite care can take various forms to meet the needs of individuals with a learning disability, or the needs of carers and families. It offers carers, and clients, independent time and the opportunity for a change of environment and stimulus. Under the comprehensive spending review, the total budget secured for children and adults with learning disabilities in Northern Ireland was £33 million — £17 million recurrent — over the next three years.

That will benefit children and adults with disabilities, and, among other things, will enable health and social care trusts to provide an additional 200 new or enhanced respite care packages over the next three years for people with learning disabilities and for their families and carers. It is anticipated that by 31 March 2011, those additional packages will have benefited 800 people.

Naomi Long (Alliance, Belfast East)

I thank the Minister for his answer. Has any thought been given to the particular needs of childlike adults, an increasing number of whom are seeking respite? Currently, when those individuals reach adulthood, they are included in adult respite units, which are not always best suited to their needs.

Michael McGimpsey (UUP, Belfast South)

I assure Mrs Long that I am actively considering that. One of the difficulties is assessing the need. As she knows, need is assessed and then addressed. However, working out that need is, frankly, extremely difficult and vexing.

For example, this year, we have invested in an extra 2,000 weeks of dementia respite care; it is not enough, and we are not clear how much more is necessary. Similarly, there are an extra 200 respite care packages for people with learning disabilities, which will benefit 800 people. However, other types of respite have to be considered as well.

The picture is confused, and I have asked my Department’s statistics branch to focus on it. I have to establish what the need is, so that it can be addressed. Respite care is one of the crucial areas that we provide for, and there is a strategy in place: Caring for Carers. However, unless we are providing adequate respite care, we are not truly caring for carers.

Jonathan Craig (DUP, Lagan Valley)

Is there a strategy to deal with those people with learning disabilities who are taken care of by their parents in the community, when their parents unfortunately pass on?

Michael McGimpsey (UUP, Belfast South)

That is one of the vexing questions that we have addressed through the Bamford vision for mental health, learning disability and dementia. There are no easy answers and there is no cheap solution. Carers care for their children all their lives, but, because health and social care is becoming more efficient, we are reaching a point where, thankfully, a number of those individuals are outliving their parents. That means that they need to be taken care of.

That is one of the recurring themes arising in discussions with carer groups. What will happen to those children when their parents pass on? Who is going to look after them? Parents require reassurance, and that is what I seek to give them.

David McNarry (UUP, Strangford)

I am sure that the Minister will acknowledge that the other star turns on Saturday were the carers who participated in the panel at our very successful conference.

Will the Minister ensure that respite care will be considered fully by the joint review that is being undertaken by him and the Department for Social Development (DSD)?

Michael McGimpsey (UUP, Belfast South)

An important piece of work that I have undertaken with DSD, as Mr McNarry said, is to look into areas such as benefits. The Department also considers areas such as flexible, short-term respite provision; day activities; residential respite care; and domiciliary support. Those areas must be addressed in order to provide comfort to carers who have, as Mr Craig said, real concerns about the future.

David Ford (Alliance, South Antrim)

7. asked the Minister of Health, Social Services and Public Safety for an update on his Department’s attempts to combat hospital acquired infections. (AQO 1584/09)

Michael McGimpsey (UUP, Belfast South)

On 14 October, I advised the Assembly that I had accepted all the recommendations contained in the reports of the Regulation and Quality Improvement Authority (RQIA) review of the outbreak of clostridium difficile in the Northern Health and Social Care Trust hospitals. The Department’s service delivery unit and the its cleaner hospitals team have now met with all trusts and their healthcare-associated infection lead staff, and they have dedicated bespoke support for each trust. The cleaner hospitals team is now on the ground and work is in hand on developing trust-specific action plans, and on ensuring that the RQIA recommendations are being implemented and monitored.

The Department has taken forward several initiatives centrally, including the regional hand-hygiene campaign that I launched in June, the hand-hygiene “five moments” card for healthcare workers that was issued in October, and the regional infection and prevention control manual, which is now online. In the next few weeks, I will launch a patient information leaflet on clostridium difficile.

Furthermore, primary antimicrobial prescribing guidelines were published in November, and all five trusts have now appointed antimicrobial pharmacists to work on antibiotic use and antimicrobial resistance.

David McClarty (UUP, East Londonderry)

Before moving to questions to the Minister for Social Development, I remind Members that, after speaking to party Whips, the Speaker has ruled that the practice of reading supplementary questions must cease. Therefore, Members must keep their supplementary questions concise.

Social Development

Alex Maskey (Sinn Féin, Belfast South)

1. asked the Minister for Social Development what protocols she follows in responding to representations from, or questions raised, by Assembly Members. (AQO 1482/09)

Margaret Ritchie (Social Democratic and Labour Party, South Down)

Ministers, including me, apply a straightforward principle to representations, questions, suggestions and other matters raised by Members. I take such represen­tations seriously, consider them fully, and respond as quickly as the subject matter allows.

I make every effort to meet specific targets for response times when they apply, such as is the case with Assembly questions. I assure Mr Maskey that I approach his representations on behalf of his constituents in precisely the same objective manner as I approach those from other Members.

Members must appreciate that that does not mean that they will agree with, or be happy about, every position that I take, every response that they receive, or every decision that I make. However, that is the nature of Government and of democracy.

Alex Maskey (Sinn Féin, Belfast South)

Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. My question was not related to whether or not the Minister would agree with me. I understand and fully acknowledge that the Minister will not always agree, or wish to agree, with points or representations that are made by Members. Those are matters that must be considered on merit.

David McClarty (UUP, East Londonderry)

Order. It is Question Time, Mr Maskey. Please ask a question.

Alex Maskey (Sinn Féin, Belfast South)

I appreciate that, Mr Deputy Speaker. I wanted to get to the heart of this matter with the Minister. For example, I never received a response from the Minister to a question that I asked during a recent Adjournment debate.

David McClarty (UUP, East Londonderry)

Order. It is Question Time, Mr Maskey; I must hear a question.

Alex Maskey (Sinn Féin, Belfast South)

Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. When should I have expected to receive a response from the Minister in respect of the Adjournment debate that I secured, and which the Minister commented on at that time? I never received a response from the Minister. I received a telephone call from a member of the local Housing Executive management team some weeks later. I had no communication on that matter from the Minister until I met her last week.

Margaret Ritchie (Social Democratic and Labour Party, South Down)

Methinks Mr Maskey protests too much. I will set the record straight: Mr Maskey has asked 29 Assembly Questions of me since May 2007, and I am currently answering the twenty-ninth of those.

He has written to me on seven occasions to raise matters of concern, and I have responded to each letter. Two of those letters requested meetings with me. As a result, Mr Maskey and I met on both occasions.

The most recent of those meetings took place on 24 November 2008, when he and I had dialogue on environmental improvements in the Markets. In fact, subsequent to that meeting, Mr Maskey tabled certain Assembly questions, which I have already covered, that dealt with the detail of that particular meeting and the reasons for various steps that I have taken, with special reference to environmental improvements.

Therefore, I think that my answer explains clearly that I have dealt with all the issues that Mr Maskey raised with me.

John McCallister (UUP, South Down)

Does the Minister agree that all Members must respect parliamentary protocol and language? Does she also agree that some people’s oversensitivity on those matters makes the Assembly look as though it lives in fantasy and make-believe?

Margaret Ritchie (Social Democratic and Labour Party, South Down)

Mr McCallister knows me well, so I assure him that I seek to respond fairly and courteously to Members’ questions and to the issues that they raise.

Dominic Bradley (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Newry and Armagh)

Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. Does the Minister recall her visit to Ardcarne Park in Newry, where she met me and local residents in the home of a community leader in the area? Does she agree that that was a productive meeting and an excellent example of how to bring democracy literally into the front rooms of local people?

Can the Minister tell the House how frequently she meets constituency MLAs, and can she describe the quality of those interactions?

Margaret Ritchie (Social Democratic and Labour Party, South Down)

I recall well that visit to Ardcarne Park, which was at Mr Bradley’s request. I also recall well local residents’ concerns about the housing programme and the courteous way in which I was met. I was happy to assist them.

To get to the meat of Mr Bradley’s question, I have considerable interaction with Members in their capacity as constituency MLAs. I believe that an important benefit of devolution and a sign of the strength of local democracy is Members’ ability to have quality access to Ministers in order that their constituents’ interests can be represented. My record shows that whenever Members request meetings with me to discuss constituency issues, I am open to engagement and I am predisposed to agree to a meeting unless there is a clear reason why such a meeting would be inappropriate or unproductive.

I have met Members in their capacity as constituency MLAs in the House, in my Department’s headquarters, on site visits, and at many events. My experience of engagement with Members, whether in formal meetings or informally on the margins of meetings that occur in the Building or on site visits has, I must say, been overwhelmingly positive.

Ian McCrea (DUP, Mid Ulster)

2. asked the Minister for Social Development what steps she is taking to tackle illegal gambling. (AQO 1481/09)

Margaret Ritchie (Social Democratic and Labour Party, South Down)

I am aware that the Member has an active interest in tackling illegal gambling and has tabled previous Assembly questions for written answer on the matter.

Gambling activity in Northern Ireland is regulated by the Betting, Gaming, Lotteries and Amusements (Northern Ireland) Order 1985. Enforcement of the law, including the detection and prosecution of persons who have been engaged in illegal gambling, is the Police Service’s responsibility. My Department is responsible for the development of policy and for the promotion of law on gambling other than the National Lottery. Enforcement of the law on gambling, including the operational priority that the police attach to it and the resources that are allocated, are matters for the Chief Constable and his senior commanders.

I note with concern that enforcement of gambling law is not shown as a priority for the Police Service in its annual policing plan, which has been approved by the Policing Board.

However, the Police Service has assured the Department for Social Development that it will respond to any legitimate complaint that it receives in relation to alleged illegal gambling, whether that report comes from the general public or Members of the House.

Ian McCrea (DUP, Mid Ulster)

I thank the Minister for her answer. Will she advise the House how many meetings she has had with the Police Service to discuss illegal gambling? People have lost their cars and their houses because of gambling. It is a major concern, and I welcome the fact that the Minister views it as a priority.

Margaret Ritchie (Social Democratic and Labour Party, South Down)

I thank the Member for his question. Over the past year, I have had several meetings with the Police Service of Northern Ireland on a wide range of issues. Some of those meetings concerned gambling. I hope to talk to the Police Service in the not-too-distant future about a range of issues. I will raise the Member’s particular concerns, of which I am well aware from his correspondence and his questions for oral and written answer.

Alasdair McDonnell (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast South)

3. asked the Minister for Social Development for her assessment of the impact of the credit crunch on the housing market. (AQO 1525/09)

Willie Clarke (Sinn Féin, South Down)

9. asked the Minister for Social Development what measures her Department has taken to reduce the impact of the credit crunch on the construction industry. (AQO 1614/09)

Francie Brolly (Sinn Féin, East Londonderry)

20. asked the Minister for Social Development what action she is taking to respond to the difficulties being faced by the construction industry. (AQO 1620/09)

Margaret Ritchie (Social Democratic and Labour Party, South Down)

With your permission, Mr Deputy Speaker, I will answer questions 3, 9 and 20 together, because of their similarity.

There has been considerable discussion of what the Executive can do about the credit crunch. If we are being honest, the truth is “not much”. The credit crunch is the result of global economic forces over which we have little control. However, the Executive can do things that will help to counter the effects of the credit crunch and its attendant economic recession.

There can be no doubt that the economic downturn is beginning to bite in Northern Ireland. The evidence of a slowdown — bordering on a collapse — of the private housing sector is quite stark. For example, the total number of new-dwelling starts has reduced by almost 40% in the past year. A house-building employment survey of 202 house builders found that 3,000 jobs were lost from those companies alone in the 12 months to June 2008. A further 1,500 jobs are forecast to be lost soon if market conditions do not improve. The credit crunch and recession are having a devastating effect on the housing market. Therefore, it is vital that, as a minimum, we build the 5,250 new social houses that the Executive signed up for over the next three years.

Members — particularly Willie Clarke and Francie Brolly, who submitted the other two questions that I am answering in this group — will be pleased to know that I have a proposal for an expanded social housing newbuild programme before the Executive. I have made that proposal because I believe that increased investment in social housing at this time can have a profoundly beneficial effect on the economy in a relatively short time. The economic benefits of increased investment in social housing can help the construction industry on the one hand and meet housing need on the other. I have circulated the paper to my Executive colleagues, and it outlines in detail how I can deliver the programme. I await their consideration.

Alasdair McDonnell (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast South)

I thank the Minister for her answer. The Minister has given us a broad outline of how a social housing programme might boost the economy. Will she give more detail on the effect that a stronger social housing programme would have on jobs, for example?

Margaret Ritchie (Social Democratic and Labour Party, South Down)

I submitted a paper to my Executive colleagues, which outlines in detail just how beneficial an increase in the social housing development programme could be at this time. My primary interest is to meet housing need, but building more new homes to meet that need can directly help many people in the construction industry. In turn, that will boost the local economy during these very difficult times.

It is not only me who thinks that increased investment in social housing is the best short-term measure to boost our economy. The First Trust quarterly economic review was published last week, and, therein, Professor Mike Smyth of the University of Ulster’s school of economics said:

“There is a strong case for revising the priorities set out in the NI Executive January 2008 Budget. For instance if capital expenditure could be redirected towards social housing, it would help to offset the collapse in private sector housebuilding.”

That was the first Budget change that he highlighted.

Willie Clarke (Sinn Féin, South Down)

Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. I thank the Minister for her answer. As the Minister undoubtedly knows, large numbers of people in south Down are registered homeless and are in housing stress, particularly in Newcastle, Castlewellan and Downpatrick. People on the street are asking me when those houses will be built —

David McClarty (UUP, East Londonderry)

Order. The Member must ask a question.

Willie Clarke (Sinn Féin, South Down)

I was getting to the question.

David McClarty (UUP, East Londonderry)

I know that the Member was getting to the question. However, during Question Time, each Minister has only half an hour to take and answer questions.

Willie Clarke (Sinn Féin, South Down)

The people on the street are asking when houses will be built —

David McClarty (UUP, East Londonderry)

Irrespective of what the people in the street are saying, I am saying that the Member must ask a question.

Willie Clarke (Sinn Féin, South Down)

That was a question.

Margaret Ritchie (Social Democratic and Labour Party, South Down)

In case Mr Clarke is under any misconception, I have agreed, and I am determined, to deliver 5,250 new homes in the next three years. As I have said repeatedly, that target is non-negotiable. Although the construction industry is enduring challenging times, it has a tremendous opportunity to work with me to deliver those new social homes.

I have met the people who are homeless and on waiting lists in Downpatrick, Newcastle and Castlewellan, and Mr Clarke will, perhaps, mention other areas in south Down. Furthermore, many people come to my constituency office every week. I say to Mr Clarke and to the people of south Down that I, as the Minister with responsibility for housing, will not leave them untouched. I will ensure that south Down receives its fair and adequate share of new houses. If Mr Clarke wants to discuss a particular issue, he could, perhaps, raise that with me directly in a letter, rather than through the pages of the ‘Mourne Observer’.

Francie Brolly (Sinn Féin, East Londonderry)

Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. Is the Minister aware that the amount of money allocated for the construction of social housing per unit is insufficient to meet the new demands of energy saving and environmental issues?

Margaret Ritchie (Social Democratic and Labour Party, South Down)

As the Member will be aware, from April 2008, developers are obliged to ensure that all newly constructed homes adhere to the code for sustainable homes.

The Department and I are keen to ensure that best value for money is secured. For that reason, I instructed the Housing Executive some weeks ago to ensure that housing associations — who are the providers — have the full supply of Housing Executive land and know the details and lists of available land. That will enable those associations to build on Housing Executive land, which will, I hope, be cheaper.

Leslie Cree (UUP, North Down)

In light of the decreasing construction costs, will the Minister confirm that her budget makes savings? Will she indicate how many more social houses will be provided and how it will compare with existing targets?

Margaret Ritchie (Social Democratic and Labour Party, South Down)

As Mr Cree will be aware, I am determined, and I have agreed, to construct 5,250 houses in the next three years.

If savings are made I hope that I will have permission to use them in my Department. The reason that I put the paper to my Executive colleagues was to show the value of a social housing development programme and to demonstrate that, on the one hand, we can boost the economy and act as a catalyst — not only for economic development but also for job creation — and can kick-start the suppliers and others involved in social housing. The carpenters supplying the wood, for example, the plumbers, and all those involved in the sector can be brought back into work. It also provides the valuable asset of houses to meet housing need. I want to meet the Member’s objective, which I hope is shared by everybody in the House, particularly by my Executive colleagues.