Northern Ireland Assembly, 28 September 2009

303 contributions from 62 members. The official report.

Assembly Business

Gregory Campbell (DUP, East Londonderry)

On a point of order, Mr Speaker. Last Tuesday, 22 September, business in the Assembly was very protracted. I participated in an important Adjournment debate that, according to the Official Report, concluded at 12.46 am on Wednesday morning. I understand that elements of the speech by the Member who tabled the Adjournment topic appeared on a television station’s news website in advance of the commencement of the debate. I know that attempts were made through the usual channels earlier in the evening, quite understandably, to reschedule Assembly business on that day because the Second Stage of the Department of Justice Bill had taken some time. Will you examine whether the sequence of events is as I have outlined, Mr Speaker, and, having done so, indicate to Members that, in future, any advance publication of speeches will not be allowed to have adverse implic­ations for the scheduling of Assembly business?

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

I thank the Member for his point of order, and I hear what he is saying. He should allow me to reflect on what he has said and to read the Hansard report. I will either come back to the House or to the Member directly on the matter.

During last Tuesday’s sitting, Mr Basil McCrea asked for guidance on remarks that the First Minister made about the relationship between the Assembly and Ministers. In my response, I stressed that it was a complex matter that is not easily dealt with under points of order. In fact, it is impossible to do so under points of order. Given its complexity, I continue to examine the issue. I will consider whether it may require any further action by me, or by any other body. In the meantime, what is certain is that the Assembly has never asserted that it has the power to direct Ministers. Even if it has such a power, its limits and extension have not been tested. Therefore, we shall continue to operate on that basis. Once again, I ask Members to raise such complex matters with me outside the Chamber rather than as points of order. Members on all sides of the House know that the issues that were raised by the First Minister are complex and neither will nor could be dealt with under points of order.

Maurice (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

I beg to move

That Standing Orders 10(2) to 10(4) be suspended for 28 September 2009.

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

Before I put the Question, I remind Members that the motion requires cross-community support.

Question put and agreed to.

Resolved (with cross-community support):

That Standing Orders 10(2) to 10(4) be suspended for 28 September 2009.

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

As there are Ayes from all sides of the House and there are no dissenting voices, I am satisfied that cross-community support has been demonstrated. Today’s sitting may go beyond 7.00 pm, if required.

Ministerial Statement

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

I have received notice from the Minister for Regional Development that he wishes to make a statement on the outcome of the examination of winter services around rural schools.

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

Following completion of the examination that I requested of the operational response by Roads Service in areas around rural schools that were affected by adverse weather conditions last winter, I wish to make a statement.

The purpose of my statement is to present the findings of the examination and to outline the improvements that I will make to Roads Service’s winter policy as a result of those findings. I will first give a brief overview of the background leading up to the examination, the weather conditions experienced last winter and details of the difficulties faced by some rural schools. Secondly, I will outline the options that were considered and the changes that I have asked Roads Service to implement in time for this winter.

After severe wintry conditions were experienced across the North at the start of December 2008, the Regional Development Committee requested a review of Roads Service’s winter service policy and criteria. The Committee expressed concern that schoolchildren in rural areas had to travel on icy roads to schools. Indeed, some schools had to close for a short time during that period.

Although I declined to initiate a full review of Roads Service’s winter service policy and criteria, I asked Roads Service to examine the operational response to areas around schools and to report its findings to me. I did not request a full review because I believe that Roads Service’s current policy of targeting limited resources on roads with relatively high traffic volumes where salt is most effective and benefits most road users is sound, particularly in the current economic climate.

The examination that I ordered was carried out by Roads Service’s winter service working group, every member of which has substantial experience in the planning and delivery of winter services. Each of the group’s divisional representatives serves as a winter service controller.

The main characteristic of the weather that caused the problems at the start of December 2008 was the occurrence of late-morning rain showers on a consecutive number of very cold days during which there was often no thaw. That resulted in widespread ice on the entire network, including major elements of the treated network. Most areas were affected for approximately a week, but it was recognised that the freeze varied from place to place and that the overlapping period across the North stretched from 1 December to 19 December 2008.

The likely return frequency of that sort of weather is difficult to determine, but is considered to be approx­imately once in 12 years. The same frequency would also apply to the extent to which the winter service experienced problems with the amount of salt needed and the number of treatments applied during the 2008-09 season. For example, in 2008-09, 82,500 tons of salt was used to treat the network; almost 60% more than in previous years. Overall, the operation cost £6·8 million; some £2·6 million more than in previous years.

The weather pattern resulted in periods of up to five consecutive days with prolonged ice problems, which had a greater than usual impact on the untreated network. It is recognised that some rural schools faced significant difficulties because of their locations off the salted network. The examination found that during the period of severe wintry weather, just over 90% of the 250 rural schools stayed open. Despite having received between one and five secondary treatments, 23 schools closed for between a half-day and three days. Almost 20% of rural schools — a total of 46 — had absenteeism levels of more than 20% on occasions during that period.

Of the 23 schools that had closures in the December study period, 10 did not have any other closures during the later periods of, primarily, snow problems in January and early February 2009. However, 21 other schools were affected by those later incidents. Notwithstanding all that information, most rural schools that were surveyed had grit piles or salt boxes along their frontages and along connecting roads to the salted network. Unscheduled secondary treatment was also carried out at 47 of the 162 schools that were surveyed.

The review group looked at a number of opportunities for improvement and narrowed those down to four options, which I was asked to consider. Option 1 was for priority secondary salting for the 23 schools most affected by the weather conditions in December 2008. It involved preparing lists of all the problem school sites for each section office area and, when implementing any secondary salting actions for ice conditions, ensuring that a connecting route to each school from the main salted network is given as high a priority as possible. That option would target rural schools that had to close due to ice conditions last December.

Option 2 was for enhanced communication and priority secondary salting for the 44 schools most affected by weather conditions throughout the winter of 2008-09. That involved preparing lists of schools with particular difficulties for each section area and providing their management with Roads Service contact names and telephone numbers to improve communication and to ensure that problem areas are identified at the earliest possible opportunity. Option 2 targeted rural schools that had to close due to ice or snow problems last winter.

Option 3 was for additional salt boxes and salt/grit piles for all rural schools. It involved amending the criteria and scoring mechanism in the winter service policy for the consideration of placing salt boxes and grit piles to ensure that grit piles are provided at the nearest connecting route to all rural schools and that a salt box is provided adjacent to each school entrance.

Option 4 was for formalised secondary salting for 23 schools. It involved formalising secondary salting routes to link affected rural schools to the salted network and would be included in winter service plans as an action to be initiated when frost or ice is expected in a relevant area.

Having considered the options, I have decided that option 2 presents the most cost-effective way to deal with the problem. It involves enhanced communications and priority secondary salting for the 44 schools most affected by weather conditions throughout the winter of 2008-09. The approach is likely to have a wider positive impact on affected schools. It should lead to more frequent reports and, thereby, to more secondary actions to rural schools that closed due to either the December 2008 ice problems or the later snow problems in January and February 2009.

I also propose to enhance that option, so that if Roads Service staff become aware of ice or snow in areas that are adjacent to the targeted schools, they should act immediately and not wait to be contacted by the schools. I appreciate that, over time, the list of sites that benefit from this action will change to include more schools and to deal with the random way that adverse weather can affect different schools at different times.

I also propose to implement a slight variation of option 3, which was to amend the criteria for the provision of grit/salt piles and salt bins, so that, if requested, they can be provided to affected schools. Implementing those additional measures will help schools to avoid closures and high absentee levels during future adverse weather conditions in a cost-effective manner. I am now pleased to take Members’ questions. Go raibh míle maith agat.

Fred Cobain (UUP, Belfast North)

I thank the Minister for his statement on the review. Is he content that the measures that he has announced will solve all the problems with respect to rural schools? How will the measures help children in rural areas to get to school? Is he content that there are adequate funds in his departmental budget to cover the cost of the measures that he has announced today?

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

Last year, there was a particular focus on the conditions that pertained in December and in January and February. The focus of Members and society in general was on rural schools, so I asked the Department to carry out a fairly intensive consultation, particularly with the affected schools, but also with rural schools generally to get some sense of the type of problems that people experienced.

The Member is quite right to point out that the budget to address all those issues is limited. It is clear that 80% of traffic is on roads that have been treated, and to increase that figure to 90% would double, approximately, the cost of treatment. In the current, or any, economic climate, that would be a difficult choice to make. Therefore, within limited resources, the option that I have chosen will provide a degree of flexibility and will ensure that schools that have suffered due to closure and disruption in the past are targeted through communication or, indeed, if there is an expectation of that type of weather, automatically. Moreover, there will be flexibility to allow other schools that suffer to benefit, because we cannot be certain, geographically, where adverse weather will impact. Therefore, if the need arises, other schools can be brought on board. To ensure that schools are treated, we will create a line of communication between rural schools and local Roads Service managers.

Providing schools with salting facilities will also help the situation. Not every road across the region can be salted, and the Member knows the costs associated with such a policy. However, this is an attempt to try to resolve the particular issue for rural schools. Should conditions this winter or next reveal that this type of approach is not achieving satisfactory results, I will, if I am still in office, initiate a further review, cost it and bring it forward during future discussions on the Budget.

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

I remind the whole House that the questions on a ministerial statement are intended to facilitate holding the Minister and the Executive to account. It is not the time for making statements or for asking questions with long introductions.

A large number of Members want to ask questions on the statement, so I ask Members to keep to the convention of asking one question on the statement and to ensure that it relates to the statement. If we adhere to those conventions, we will have time for all the questions.

Michelle McIlveen (DUP, Strangford)

I welcome the Minister’s statement. He selected option 2. Was his decision based purely on considerations of cost? The report identified the 44 schools most affected by weather conditions in the winter of 2008-09. Will the Minister tell us the areas in which those schools are located?

I beg the Speaker’s indulgence. The Minister stated that the provision of grit piles and salt bins would be changed. Will he elaborate on that?

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

Option 2 was more expensive than option 1. My decision was not, therefore, made strictly on the basis of cost. Rather, I was trying to find the most flexible and effective option. If we encounter similar weather conditions this winter, that will test whether this approach works.

I do not have the list to hand, but I will ensure that the Member is provided with a list of the 44 schools that suffered particular problems and expressed a desire for particular treatment.

Formerly, criteria had to be met for the provision of salt boxes. However, we have adopted a more flexible approach. If a school requests provision of salt boxes, the request will be met.

Cathal Boylan (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. I welcome the Minister’s statement. Obviously, he has been much lobbied, especially in the constituency that we both represent. He has been lobbied, in particular, by Clady Primary School, which faced adverse conditions last year.

During his review, did the Minister consider speaking with rural companies, farmers or the Minister of Agriculture and Rural Development about the possibility of them providing additional support to Roads Service’s gritting procedures?

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

I discussed the matter with Michelle Gildernew, the Minister of Agriculture and Rural Development.

The Member knows that farmers are already involved, through contracts, to clear snow from roads. We examined whether that work could be built on to include salting and gritting. However, the matter was not pursued for a number of reasons. First, it would significantly increase the amount of salting and, therefore, the cost of the operation. Salting done in a piecemeal way is less efficient and more expensive than using large-capacity gritters. Secondly, there are problems of command and control, of contacting all the farmers and telling them when to grit. There is also the likelihood of discontinuous treatment, with roads being salted for several miles but the treatment discontinued without any warning to the motorist. We would have to rely on people contracted to come out and to be available.

All those factors led us to conclude that the work is better done by Roads Service. Farmers will continue to be involved in snow-clearance operations wherever such conditions pertain. As I have said, we explored the option with the Department of Agriculture and Rural Development (DARD).

Tommy Gallagher (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

I welcome the Minister’s news. It is some help that the statement recognises that there are problems for some primary schools in rural and isolated areas.

My question is when those schools will know? Identifying schools with difficulties is one thing, but there are some problem areas. Does the Minister recognise the difficulties of Boa in County Fermanagh, where children from that area attend three or four different schools, yet it is the area in Fermanagh that is most affected by severe weather?

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

Through contact and discussion with schools, the examination was targeted at schools that had had difficultly opening or had lost days last winter to ensure that they did not suffer the same problems this year. There is a communication system through which schools can make contact, and local Roads Service operators will know whether there is a problem in the vicinity of those schools that should be treated. It is two-way: schools can make contact to say that they have a problem, and they will then receive secondary treatment; or, under the general secondary treatment schedule, operators will know about the situation in certain areas.

The Member made a point about specific areas. If roads in his locality have a heavy volume of traffic, the local divisional office will be happy to carry out an assessment. Roads come onto the schedule every year as traffic volumes increase, which is why the cost of winter gritting is increasing. Traffic volume is increasing, which brings certain roads above the criteria and allows them to be included. If the Member feels that specific roads in Fermanagh merit consideration, I invite him to bring them to the attention of the local divisional office.

Kieran McCarthy (Alliance, Strangford)

I welcome the document. Will the Minister furnish me with a list of the 44 schools mentioned? I am sure that other Members want to know the locations of the 44 schools.

In the proposal to enhance option 2, for which the Minister has gone, Roads Service staff would become aware of ice that is adjacent to targeted schools. Is the Minister confident that, when local Roads Service personnel are informed of this fact, they will carry out their functions and will not say, with reluctance, that they can do so only by removing the service from elsewhere?

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

The review was carried out with Roads Service and with people who are involved in the winter gritting service across every division. The options were discussed with them and with the schools. The 44 schools to which I referred — I will get the list for the Member— are those that reported having problems last year. That is how the list was drawn up: contact was made with all rural schools, and those 44 schools reported problems. Those schools will be added to the general list of secondary treatment for certain areas, either through schools contacting Roads Service to make it aware of a problem and asking it to come out, or, if the general area is being treated, Roads Service will know to do that, and that area will be added onto its schedules.

Allan Bresland (DUP, West Tyrone)

How much legal responsibility do school staff have for gritting the roads around the schools?

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

It is not down to a question of legal responsibility. A number of schools will have salt boxes provided to them, or there will be grit piles on some of the rural routes, which people can use if they feel it necessary; I do not think that there is a legal obligation on them to do that.

The amendment to the policy is that, where previously schools were automatically given salt boxes only if they passed a certain threshold, it is now the case that, if schools request them, they will receive them. The schools must spread the salt, but I do not think that that brings a legal responsibility.

Raymond McCartney (Sinn Féin, Foyle)

Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as a ráiteas ar maidin. I welcome the Minister’s statement and his answers to date.

Will the Minister outline how he intends to bring the new proposals to the attention of the schools and the local communities that they undoubtedly affect?

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

Roads Service has been in contact with all rural schools, and those communications ought to continue. Although the policy will examine the 44 schools that were affected last year, flexibility is built in should other schools experience problems. Roads Service will want to maintain that level of direct communication with the schools.

As regards making the change in policy more widely known in general, the first intention was to deliver the statement to the Assembly. The Member will know that the report, including the options that we considered and the choice that we made, has been delivered to the Committee for Regional Development. Roads Service officials will brief the Committee and take questions this week. I will talk to the Department about making the change to the winter service operation more widely known.

George Robinson (DUP, East Londonderry)

Although the provision of grit piles and salt boxes is welcome, does the Minister agree that, particularly on footpaths leading to schools, it is unfair to depend on the goodwill of a member of the public or school staff? Roads Service staff have the knowledge that is required, so they would be the most cost-effective way of deploying the resources in grit piles and salt boxes.

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

From his time in the Regional Development Committee, the Member will know that there is a finite resource available for doing all this, and we are trying to find the most cost-effective way of achieving a good result for rural schools. People are relied on to use grit piles and salt boxes, and they usually request that the piles or boxes are situated on routes along the road or in and around schools for that express purpose.

The Member will be aware that Roads Service made an attempt to reach an agreement with local councils in respect of footpath gritting. Only one of the 26 councils expressed an interest in becoming involved in footpath-gritting arrangements with Roads Service. Roads Service’s road-gritting schedule covers roads that are used by 80% of daily traffic, and to expand that to cover footpaths would involve substantial resources, which Roads Service does not have. The purpose of the chosen option is to try to make an improvement, having learned the lessons from last year. If this winter is as severe as last, the operation of the new policy will be tested and we will see whether more substantial resources are required to deal with it in the future. If that is the case, it will be a matter for discussion at Budget time.

Danny Kinahan (UUP, South Antrim)

I thank the Minister for his statement. In particular, I welcome his choice of option 2 and the flexibility that it provides. However, what action will be taken to ensure that he will have flexibility and the chance to make an urgent response? Given that cold periods tend to happen everywhere on the same day and that more than 44 schools will be affected, what action will he take to ensure that the phone lines do not jam and that things are dealt with urgently?

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

Even last year’s cold weather, when there was a prolonged period of icy weather in December and a period of snow in January and into February, was localised. In discussions with the Met Office, we were told that it is expected that such conditions will occur once every 12 years. The scenario that the Member outlined, in which an entire region is beset with that type of severe weather, is rare. Under such circumstances, Roads Service would certainly struggle to get that type of response.

The purpose of the examination was to try to focus on some of the schools to which for a variety of reasons, such as their locality or surrounding terrain, approach was more difficult than other rural schools. Representatives from 250 rural schools were spoken to and 44 had had problems. That showed that the majority can continue to operate, even in severe winter weather. We have to focus in and around the schools that need assistance. The type of scenario suggested by the Member would overwhelm the entire network, probably, but we do not expect that to occur.

Flexibility is built into the option, as the Member acknowledges, and it will be tested over the next number of winters. If it is found not to be sufficient to do the job that we have set out to do, we will need more resources, and that will be discussed when the Budget is being agreed.

Declan O'Loan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, North Antrim)

I would also like to receive a list of the 44 schools, as, I am sure, would all Members. The wording of option 2 seems to place a lot of the initiative on the schools. In many cases, that might be too late in the day. Will the Minister ensure that Roads Service takes a proactive approach and that the primary responsibility to identify the necessary action, and take that action, rests with Roads Service?

As the Minister knows, extreme conditions on rural roads can occur on a random basis but can cause immense local difficulty. Will he write to Roads Service and say that he actively encourages it to use its discretion, within its resources, to take action to deal with local problems when they emerge, which cause, as he knows, immense local hardship?

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

With respect to the Member’s question about communication, the Department added that to option 2 because the onus was on schools to make contact with Roads Service, and, depending on the circumstances, that may have been difficult for some schools to do.

The first salting run is usually completed by 7.00 am, meaning that the gritting lorries are generally back at the depot at that time and are ready to begin working on secondary routes. That allows time for those who arrive early at the schools, such as the principals or the people who open the schools, to contact Roads Service if there is a problem with the area around a school. However, built into the gritting schedule is the mechanism for Roads Service to treat the roads around any of the 44 identified schools if a general problem is discovered in an area.

With respect to the Member’s question about localised problems; I live in a rural area and on a C-class road, and I am very aware that small, localised problems can occur. However, a certain volume of traffic is required to travel over the salt in order for the solution that treats the ice and frost to be activated. Salt is ineffective if it is put down on roads that are very lightly used. I have always encouraged, and will continue to encourage, Roads Service to be as flexible as it can, within its limited resources, to ensure that particular problems in local areas are dealt with.

Willie Clarke (Sinn Féin, South Down)

Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. I also thank the Minister for his statement and for his proposals. I raised the issue at a meeting of the Committee for Regional Development after receiving a considerable number of calls from constituents. I am, therefore, pleased that the Minister has taken action.

Another major issue, which is perhaps outside the scope of today’s announcement, is that rural businesses are affected by adverse weather conditions. It is a particular problem in my constituency where a number of restaurants and hotels lost bookings in the run-up to Christmas last year, which severely impacted on their businesses. Will the Minister examine those issues too?

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

The focus of the review I have announced today concerns the gritting of roads around rural schools. As I said, the issue not only raises concerns about children’s safety as they travel to school, it has an impact on the economy, as parents are forced to take the day off work to look after their children when the schools close.

In an answer to a previous question, I made it clear that the gritting schedule has changed, over time, and that more roads have been added to the schedule each year because of increasing volumes of traffic. However, if the Member feels that there are businesses in his area that are attracting a substantial volume of traffic, he should ask his local Roads Service office to reassess the roads on which those businesses are situated and determine whether they meet the criteria to be included on the gritting schedule. Indeed, if any other Members feel that particular roads in their area have become more heavily used, because of a rural business or place of entertainment, they should bring that information to the attention of the local Roads Service office and ask for that road to be reassessed.

Ian McCrea (DUP, Mid Ulster)

I thank the Minister for his statement and for his commitment to tackle the problem of gritting roads around rural schools.

Will the Minister inform the House what action is taken against drivers of gritting lorries who have accidents while gritting roads? I am led to believe that formal warnings are issued when that occurs, yet members of staff are putting their lives on the line to tackle difficult roads.

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

If the Member has a specific concern he should raise it directly with me outside the Chamber or with Roads Service. There is a very strong acknowledgement from Roads Service, and the community as a whole, that those who carry out the winter gritting service work in very adverse weather conditions. Society should be very grateful to the people who do that work, because they carry out a much needed service during unsociable hours, and on road conditions that can be quite treacherous.

As Roads Service employs its own drivers, there is an inbuilt understanding with respect to the conditions they face. However, if the Member has specific queries in relation to a specific incident, I will be happy to hear from him and to have Roads Service answer those queries.

Barry McElduff (Sinn Féin, West Tyrone)

Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as a ráiteas. I welcome the action being taken by the Minister. Where will the responsibility for the gritting of rural roads sit following the implementation of the review of public administration? How many of the 44 schools are in the Western Education and Library Board area? I hope that Recarson Primary School, Altamuskin Primary School, Tummery Primary School and the Derrybard Road feature prominently on that list.

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

The gritting of roads is not a function that has been considered for transfer under the review of public administration. There are substantial arguments against doing that, as the gritting schedule changes substantially. Some councils, particularly those in the rural west, will have more resources devoted to gritting than other councils will have, and that might create an imbalance in the resources needed by councils for treating roads. The argument for retaining much of Road Service’s functions was sound, and the gritting of roads will not be transferred.

I am happy to provide a list of the 44 schools. All rural schools were contacted, and the 44 schools on the list outlined particular problems that they had experienced last year. I am not sure whether they are in the west, east, north or south, but I am happy to provide the Member with the list.

Jim Shannon (DUP, Strangford)

I thank the Minister for his response to Members’ concerns. We have been told that the options included 23 schools and 44 schools. On occasions last winter, the number of pupils attending schools was reduced because of icy road conditions. The road conditions may not have led to the closure of those schools but, clearly, they reduced the schools’ service delivery. The magical list contains 44 schools, and if a school is on that list, it has made it. However, I am perturbed about the schools that are not on that list. I do not know the names of the schools on the list; I will not now list the schools in the Ards Peninsula that need to be on it. Will the Minister confirm that schools that are not on the list but feel that they should be can be included? What criteria will be used to ensure that such schools can be added?

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

Roads Service questioned schools about absenteeism, and I referred to that in my statement. Some schools experience absenteeism of around 20%. We did not only examine whether schools had to close; we looked into their general experience during times of adverse weather conditions. I favoured option two because it has a degree of flexibility built into it. Those 44 schools told Roads Service about particular problems that they had experienced last year, but there is the flexibility that if some of those schools do not experience any problems this year for different reasons, other schools can be included.

I advocate that, before winter sets in, rural schools should get a direct line of communication with their local roads manager, or whoever he appoints to be the liaison between Roads Service and the school. Those schools should ensure that those lines of communication are open so that if they experience any difficulties, they can be brought to the attention of Roads Service as soon as possible.

Roy Beggs (UUP, East Antrim)

I thank the Minister for his statement and his proposals, which may bring some improvements to 44 schools. Last winter, two 53-seater buses carrying post-primary schoolchildren from a rural area to the town of Larne crashed. The Minister is focused on rural schools. It is not clear whether instances such as the one that I referred to will be covered. Will he advise whether, even if they have not been considered so far, the bus routes to post-primary schools will be carefully assessed to address the risk factors involved with a large number of children travelling on an icy road in a large vehicle that is difficult to manoeuvre?

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

As I said in response to an early question, this option does not cover all of the routes. It would not be possible to salt all bus routes without a significant increase in resources.

Information garnered from education and library boards tells us that if all school bus routes were to be salted, that would more than double the length of the current salted network. Apart from a capital investment of £15 million, to salt all school bus routes would cost between £4·5 million and £7 million extra each year. Within current resources, that level of expenditure is not feasible. An increased weighting factor for buses has been introduced in the past number of years, so a 40-seater bus is counted as 40 vehicles for the purpose of meeting the traffic-flow criteria on the salted network. That measure has gone some way towards ensuring that some of the school bus routes meet the criteria for salting.

Option 2 is focused particularly on those schools that faced difficulty in staying open last winter. If the weather conditions are such this winter, and perhaps next winter, a trial of option 2 will be targeted at those schools. If it is found not to be sufficient, we will have to examine longer-term options, which will have much more significant resource implications.

John Dallat (Social Democratic and Labour Party, East Londonderry)

I also welcome the statement, at least until I discover that St Paul’s College in Kilrea has not been included on the list of 44 schools. If it has not been, I will be skidding all over the place. Can the Minister assure us that areas where local people have gone to the ends of the earth to protect their children’s safety — even to the extent of their going out on tractors and manure sowers to keep the roads clear — will not be disadvantaged? He stated that the focus will be on schools that had to close last winter. The school that I mentioned, St Paul’s, did not close, but that it did not was only as a result of the goodness of people in the local community, who kept the school open in what is a very hilly area.

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

As I said, Roads Service surveyed the schools that had particular problems, and options were brought to me on the basis of consultation with all rural schools. If the school that the Member refers to did not experience a severe problem that forced it to close, it will not have been targeted for the trial.

A lower criterion of 1,000 vehicles a day for roads on hilly terrain has already been set, and the increased weighting factor for buses in service will help such roads to meet it. Again, if there are particular problems, and if the Member feels that roads are experiencing heavier traffic because of an increase in traffic volumes, he should bring his concerns to the local Roads Service office’s attention.

The Member will be aware of all the resource issues involved, because he was a member of the Committee for Regional Development until recently. As I have explained, if we were to salt every single road in the North, first, it would not work on certain roads, because a certain amount of traffic is needed in order to activate the salt. It would be a complete waste of resources to salt roads on which traffic is very light. Secondly, to increase from 80% to 90% the percentage of roads to be salted would double the cost incurred. If Roads Service were provided with money to salt 90% of roads, I am sure that it would be happy to send extra machinery out to do the salting. However, within the resources available, option 2 allows Roads Service to provide a focused response for schools and some rural areas that have experienced particular difficulty.

Francie Molloy (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

I thank the Minister for his initiative on this issue, and I also congratulate Roads Service, which has been flexible in assisting funerals, weddings and other events in rural areas. Does he consider that secondary salting will be adequate to deal with schools in rural areas? Will the service be available on time so that Roads Service can ensure a safe surface?

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

The general experience is that, after completing primary salting, the vehicles are back in the depots by around 7.00 am. We then want the 44 schools that have been identified to be put at the top of the list for secondary salting. Few people will be going to school before 8.00 am, so the secondary salting schedules should provide an opportunity for roads approaching those schools to be salted. I expect option 2 to operate favourably for those schools for which a particular problem has been identified. It is a new option that will be trialled over the next year or two, and I certainly hope that it will provoke the sort of response that we would like it to.

Trevor Lunn (Alliance, Lagan Valley)

I also welcome the Minister’s constructive statement. In his reply to Mr Cobain, he mentioned the possibility of further reviews. On several occasions, he mentioned giving local Roads Service offices a level of flexibility. In my experience, that level of flexibility has been absent so far, but we hope for better times. If there is to be flexibility, as well as taking into account traffic volumes, which I appreciate must be the main criterion for deciding to salt any road, is there a possibility of considering a particular road’s accident history? Members of the local community will know how many accidents there have been on particular roads — even those of which the police are not notified — so they could also have some input.

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

The local offices have a degree of flexibility within the resources that are available to them. People who contacted their local office over the winter about a particular road and were told that it did not have the resources must understand that that may have been the case. Criteria are applied, and a particular focus is placed on the schools that had problems last year.

The Member may be interested to know that police statistics show that frost, ice and snow are factors in only 1·2% of all road injury accidents and that less than 1% of accidents occur on roads that are outside the normal salted network. Although I am sure that accident history is taken into account, a very small percentage of road accidents are attributed to frost, ice and snow.

Committee Business

Dolores Kelly (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Upper Bann)

I beg to move

That, in accordance with Standing Order 33(4), the period referred to in Standing Order 33(2) be extended to 26 October 2009, in relation to the Committee Stage of the Local Government (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill [NIA Bill 10/08].

The Local Government (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill had its Second Stage on 30 June 2009 and was referred to the Committee for the Environment on 1 July 2009.

The Bill has 23 clauses, and it aims to clarify the powers of district councils to enter into long-term service contracts with the private sector, to enable councils to acquire land otherwise than by agreement for waste-management purposes, to make preliminary arrangements for the reorganisation of local government, to establish statutory transition committees for the purpose of preparing for and giving full effect to the reorganisation of local government, and to enable the Department to make regulations to provide for severance payments to be made to councillors who resign during a specified period.

The Committee has taken oral evidence from local councils, the Northern Ireland Local Government Association and Arc21, and it will soon begin its clause-by-clause consideration of the Bill. At its meeting on 17 September 2009, the Committee agreed that it would be prudent to seek this short extension as a contingency plan in the event of an emergency, such as an outbreak of swine flu.

The Committee is aware of the Bill’s importance for local government reform, and it is aware of the tight timescale that is involved in order that the Bill may receive Royal Assent by the end of the year. It should be noted, however, that the Bill has been delayed significantly in coming to the Committee since members made a commitment to the Department over a year ago that they would agree to a shortened Committee Stage. The Department indicated recently that, as a result of discussions with the Committee, it is now liaising with the Office of the Legislative Counsel on the preparation of possible amendments to the Local Government (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill that will require further Committee scrutiny.

I assure the House that the extension will not be used unless it is absolutely necessary. The Committee has assured the Department that it will work with it to ensure the smooth passage of a raft of legislation, particularly on local government, in the coming season. I ask Members for their support.

Question put and agreed to.

Resolved:

That, in accordance with Standing Order 33(4), the period referred to in Standing Order 33(2) be extended to 26 October 2009, in relation to the Committee Stage of the Local Government (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill [NIA Bill 10/08].

Private Members’ Business

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

The Business Committee has agreed to allow up to one hour and 30 minutes for the debate. The proposer will have 10 minutes in which to propose the motion and 10 minutes in which to make a winding-up speech. All other Members who wish to speak will have five minutes. One amendment has been selected and published on the Marshalled List. The proposer of the amendment will have 10 minutes in which to propose and five minutes in which to make a winding-up speech. All other Members who wish to speak will have five minutes.

Jennifer McCann (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. I beg to move

That this Assembly expresses deep concern at the possible negative economic consequences for the island of Ireland if the National Asset Management Agency legislation currently under consideration by Dáil Éireann is passed; and calls on the First Minister and deputy First Minister to raise the issue at the North/South Ministerial Council to agree a way forward regarding these assets which will ensure the economic stability of the island of Ireland and movement towards economic growth.

This motion highlights a number of concerns for both the North and the South that would be realised should the legislation for the national asset management agency (NAMA) be passed, and it calls for an all-island approach to be taken on the issue.

In legislative terms, the Irish Government’s proposal is seriously flawed. It plans to pay the banks’ long-term economic valuations for bad loans, as opposed to the current market value. That is a bad deal for taxpayers. The additional recapitalisation that would be needed subsequent to the establishment of NAMA means that taxpayers would pay twice for the bank crisis and would still have no real control over the sector.

Even when bad loans are taken off banks’ books, there is no guarantee that banks will provide normal lending in an economy that is starved of credit. Historically, banks are quick to lend during a boom, but slow to lend during a recession. Therefore, it is irresponsible to take losses for banks without ensuring an element of control of banking practice.

The main reason to oppose NAMA is the fact that it is a plan to rescue banks and developers. It does not help ordinary homeowners and businesses who face repossession and economic hardship throughout the length and breadth of the island. They must continue to pay their debts, while developers’ bad loans are put on ice indefinitely.

The legislation will also have an impact on the North. As I have said, it affects people throughout the island of Ireland. Although taxpayers in the South will be hit hardest as banks sell off their bad loans to the Government, €5 billion-worth of those assets are located in the North. When they are sold off, that will affect the value of property and land here.

The Irish Government will have to recoup their expenditure in some way. With no definite time frame for the sale of those assets being built into the proposals, the release of that property into the market at discount prices over a period will have an adverse effect on the recovery of the economy here. Minister Wilson has said that he has been given assurances by the South’s Finance Minister; we in Sinn Féin want to know the details of those assurances. If the economy in the South goes further into free fall, nothing will stop the quick release of those assets into the market.

There is a strong argument for NAMA to be put before the people, and my party believes that that should be done by way of a referendum. The focus for many people has been the price that NAMA will pay for toxic loans that it will transfer from the banks onto the taxpayer’s balance sheet. That long-term economic value benefits only the banks’ shareholders, as the long-term viability of those loans is seriously in doubt due to the oversupply of property and the overinflated value of loans.

NAMA is incapable of meeting the twin objectives of achieving the best value for taxpayers and exposing them to the least possible risk. The debt to which NAMA will expose taxpayers could be in excess of €70 billion. As I have said, €5 billion-worth of that property and related assets are located in the North.

The legislation contains numerous problems, not least of which are the reliance on banks to act in good faith by giving all information on loans to NAMA and the reliance on the ability of NAMA to work with developers to finish projects, potentially lending them taxpayers’ money to do so. There are also operational concerns that NAMA will not have the expertise to reclaim debt as it is not used to working in that sphere and the staff that it recruits may still be loyal to their former bank employers.

NAMA will have a huge government cost — the staffing requirement of 50 may well be an underestimate — at a time when other organisations of significant public importance are being amalgamated and rationalised. As regards the notion that a levy will be introduced on banks if NAMA makes a shortfall, we do not know how a shortfall will even be defined, much less what the levy would be.

The Government also says that cleaning out banks via NAMA will bring a return to normal bank practice and lending. However, that rests on the assumption that private banking practice is interested in restoring the economy through providing credit, rather than being concerned only with the interests of shareholders. We must ask whether banks will lend when they have managed to get their hands on cash via NAMA-issued transfer bonds.

Banks do not tend to lend to businesses that they consider to be risky. We have also seen that problem here, with banks that sometimes do not lend to small and medium-sized businesses because doing so might create another set of dubious assets that would impair their loan books. That is what NAMA is trying to rectify. As I have said, historically, banks lend too much money, too easily, during booms, and too little money, too cautiously, during recessions.

The creation of NAMA will not provide any positives that could not be delivered through nationalisation. If it was used as a state property management company, NAMA would have potential. If it was used as a property management company, the state could utilise land seized on defaulted loans for vital infrastructure, social housing provision or tourism development. We now have a situation in which people throughout the country are sitting in their homes and business premises in negative equity, or, worse, are being evicted because their property is being repossessed.

The property managed by NAMA should be available to local authorities to house people who are evicted as a result of banks moving against them. However, the NAMA-owned property, paid for by taxpayers, is to be managed by private development companies, and tenders have already been put out to attract such companies. That measure is designed to keep party members on board rather than improve the legislation.

NAMA has nothing to do with improving Irish society. The ultimate point of it is to socialise debt and privatise profit. There needs to be an agreed way forward based on an all-island approach. If the NAMA legislation is passed in its current form, there will be serious implications for the economy of the island as a whole. The nationalisation of banks is a much more viable alternative, which would protect the interests of the taxpayer and create a working system of banking.

All of that illustrates the weakness of not having joined-up economic planning across the island. An all-Ireland economic summit is required to address the urgent need for a joined-up economic approach. Go raibh maith agat.

Stephen Farry (Alliance, North Down)

I beg to move the following amendment: Leave out all after “consequences” and insert

“for Northern Ireland arising from the potential National Asset Management Agency legislation currently under consideration in the Oireachtas; and, while respecting the right of the Irish Government and Parliament to determine their own response to the banking crisis within their jurisdiction, calls on the First Minister and deputy First Minister, alongside the Ministers of Finance and Personnel and Enterprise, Trade and Investment, to use all opportunities, including the North South Ministerial Council, to ensure that the potential implications for the economy in Northern Ireland are fully taken into account within any legislation and subsequent action.”

I welcome the debate. The legislation in the Republic of Ireland is significant and comes at a very interesting time for politics as a whole in the Republic of Ireland. Given that there are implications for Northern Ireland, it is only right that the Assembly discusses it.

We tabled our amendment to focus the debate on the real interests of Northern Ireland and to avoid an inappropriate widening of the discussion. We have to respect the right of the Irish Government and the Oireachtas to determine their own internal economic policies. We may all have personal viewpoints on NAMA, but the primary response to the banking crisis in the Republic of Ireland is for Irish elected represent­atives to determine. That does not mean that the Assembly should look inward: on the contrary, it is important that we are outward-looking as far as possible and that we are prepared to comment on national, all-island, European and international affairs, particularly, but not exclusively, when they impact on Northern Ireland.

In doing that, it is important that we recognise and respect our own competencies as an Assembly and, more importantly, that we recognise the competencies and responsibilities of other Assemblies and Parliaments. That also applies to electorates. For example, I would love to be in a position to call for a “Yes” vote in Friday’s referendum on the Lisbon Treaty. However, as an elected representative in Northern Ireland who sits in a Northern Irish Assembly, I know that that would not be appropriate.

In particular, we need to be very careful that the Assembly does not become a surrogate for fighting battles that should really be taking place on the Floor of the Dáil Éireann. Therefore, our focus should be on trying to influence the legislation in a manner that addresses and contains any of the potential implications for Northern Ireland and our economy.

The NAMA approach, or something similar, may be the least worst of all the options facing the Irish Government. I respect the views of others, including those expressed by Sinn Féin today and those expressed within my own group that are different to my own, but that is not the issue for us today. We can all be populist and want to give the bankers a good kicking, which they richly deserve, no doubt. However, being responsible, we cannot escape acknowledging that a healthy and functioning banking system is fundamental to any economy. Like many other countries around the world, and perhaps particularly so given the scale of the problem, Ireland has to get its banking system moving again. We can point to examples of rescue schemes around the world, which have variable shapes and outcomes, such as the TARP scheme in the United States, our own national scheme and the one in Germany.

In order to address their banking and financial crisis, the Irish Government have to address the so-called toxic loans that are in the system. They are proposing to use €54 billion to prop up related loans that have a nominal book value of €77 billion. Those loans are currently valued at €47 billion. Is that the right balance of pain between shareholders and taxpayers? With the discount, will the assumption of a rise in value of those assets be sustainable? Have the right underlying calculations been made? Will the banks, as Jennifer McCann said, follow through and begin to lend again? Will the gamble work?

Those are interesting questions, but, again, our concern must be the impact of NAMA on Northern Ireland. We have to assume that that legislation will be introduced, and then ensure that we mitigate any effect that it might have on Northern Ireland.

From our perspective, we have to recognise the cross-border effects of that legislation. We do not live in a world of closed economies. Rather, we live in an open, integrated and globalised economy, and what happens in one economy can have knock-on effects elsewhere. Decisions taken by national governments have much wider implications and effects. The Irish Government’s act of economic nationalism in guaranteeing deposits in their own national banks last year had implications across Europe and a ripple effect on the security of deposits elsewhere.

This issue indicates the realities of a growing all-island economy. I would not overstate it to the same extent as Jennifer McCann, given that we are clearly very fiscally dependent on the UK Exchequer — and, indeed, more so today — but there is clear evidence of growing integration on the island of Ireland, and it is important that we discuss economic interests of mutual concern and avoid negative impacts on each other’s economies.

Our big concern is about the impact of a fire sale of NAMA-backed assets in Northern Ireland, and the impact that that would have on our economy. It is estimated that 6% of the assets that would fall under NAMA are in Northern Ireland. Other NAMA assets are also internationalised, with about 21% in GB, 3% in the United States and about 4% in the rest of Europe. However, the impact if things went wrong would be much greater here given the relative size of our economy compared with those other, much bigger economies. The level of our exposure equates to a notional value of about £4·6 billion. However, we are still uncertain about what the impact on Northern Ireland will be. It is important that we do not over-react or panic at this stage. Although a fire sale would be extremely damaging to our property market and wider economy, there is no suggestion at this stage that that is what NAMA would seek to do.

We must do a number of things. First, we must remain vigilant to the risks, but not overplay them; secondly, we must seek to influence the legislation as best we can; and, thirdly, we must appreciate that there are individuals in Northern Ireland who will be mixed up in this, whether property owners or people who work in the related banks.

I note that our Finance Minister has already had discussions with Brian Lenehan, his counterpart in the Republic of Ireland. I also believe that the matter was discussed by the North/South Ministerial Council. It is right that those discussions continue. I would encourage a place being made available for a representative of Northern Ireland, or for someone who has an intimate knowledge of the Northern Ireland economy, on a NAMA advisory board. That would be a good way to protect our interests.

This debate is critical. We must recognise our role as an Assembly and make our points while respecting the rights of others to take decisions about their own economy. In turn, however, we must take this issue seriously but not over-react. There is a lot of work to be done in the coming months. I look forward to hearing the comments of our own Finance Minister, and I wish him and his Executive colleagues every success in trying to ensure that the effects of the legislation on Northern Ireland are minimised as far as possible.

Peter Weir (DUP, North Down)

I welcome the debate. As a politician, it is, in part, always good to talk about bankers, because in recent days, they are, perhaps, the one group of professionals that tend to be held in lower esteem than politicians. Consequently, the opportunity to distract from our bad press is always welcome.

Although I disagree with the wording of the amendment, Dr Farry hit the nail on the head. We need to focus on what the Assembly can do and determine our appropriate role. In that respect, I fundamentally disagree with the motion’s approach, because I do not believe that it is appropriate for the Assembly to interfere in what is essentially a turf war down South between Fianna Fáil and Sinn Féin and in legislation in another jurisdiction.

Some people would criticise the Assembly for not giving sufficient scrutiny to its own legislation. Therefore, it is a somewhat expansionist approach to suggest that we should interfere in legislation in the Irish Republic. To that end, some colleagues and I find ourselves in the unusual position of being defenders of Irish sovereignty today. We are a different jurisdiction, and it is not our role to interfere in the internal affairs of another country.

When I read the criticisms of NAMA in the motion, I wondered whether Sinn Féin had become nervous about the link-up between the Ulster Unionists and the Conservatives and had sought to reposition itself on the right of the Ulster Unionist Party by saying that the level of state interference in the banking sector is terrible and by proposing a free market solution. However, when I read the detail, I understood, less surprisingly, that Sinn Féin’s position is to nationalise banks. Indeed, I suspect that it is keen to nationalise everything. At least one Member on the Sinn Féin Benches seems to be giving a level of tacit support to that assertion.

The nationalisation of banks is similar to the situation in Russia in the first part of the twentieth century, whereby lands were nationalised, and the kulak class was eventually eliminated. That shows the retrograde thinking of Sinn Féin on that issue. The evil corporatists have to be faced down.

Fred Cobain (UUP, Belfast North)

Are banks, in effect, not nationalised?

Peter Weir (DUP, North Down)

I will wait to see how that —

Fred Cobain (UUP, Belfast North)

What percentage of the banking system do the Government own?

Peter Weir (DUP, North Down)

There is a fundamental difference between nationalisation of banks and an asset management system. I appreciate that the Member would be keen to go further, and I expect that to be reflected in the Conservative and Ulster Unionist manifesto.

We should focus on the implications for Northern Ireland and what the Assembly should do about them. Not surprisingly, I take exception with the proposers of the motion, who consider an all-Ireland economy as the solution to all problems, particularly down South. If we can learn one lesson from the financial position down South, it is that we were wise to steer clear of the charm offensive that was thrust in our direction, from the public and from some nationalist parties, which consistently wanted Northern Ireland to have much closer economic ties with the Republic of Ireland. It is clear that the Celtic tiger that once pranced about this island with great pride and no degree of smugness has been shown to be drinking at the pool of toxic loans. Indeed, a closer alignment with the Republic of Ireland would have left us shouldering a large amount of the debt.

The proposer of the amendment reflected fairly accurately that there has been some wild speculation about the amount of money that is involved in assets in Northern Ireland. It totals just under €5 billion of NAMA’s overall base of €77 billion. As has been mentioned, that must be put in perspective. It is clear that the scale could have huge implications for the Northern Ireland economy. However, we must also be sure that we do not overreact. We must take a co-operative approach and keep a close eye on the level of direct discussions about any implications for Northern Ireland. I would not go as far as the proposer of the amendment, who wants an economic expert for Northern Ireland to be part of the panel.

Mr McNarry’s name was suggested in that regard; we had a brief discussion beforehand, and I think that he would be willing to sacrifice himself to serve such a purpose. Whether the Assembly can spare him is another matter, but his expertise should be shared with the Republic of Ireland.

In practical terms, however, we do not believe that this is best done through high-level summitry, or, indeed, the North/South Ministerial Council. It is better that the Finance Minister work on the detail of the implications of the situation with his opposite number and with officials on a bilateral basis. It is clear that a fire sale is in no one’s interests; that is the main concern for many of us. That work has started and is ongoing; that is the route that we should be taking, rather than trying to set up structures.

David McNarry (UUP, Strangford)

I want to make it clear that I am not taking part in a job interview.

It is estimated that approximately 15% of the toxic assets held by Irish banks, which will come within the scope of NAMA, reside in Northern Ireland. There is no need for an all-Ireland summit, as was suggested by the proposer of the motion. However, that statistic alone is sufficient reason for the First Minister and the deputy First Minister —

Peter Weir (DUP, North Down)

We can bandy figures about, but my understanding is that the figure is a lot less than 15%. Indeed, as the proposer of the amendment indicated, it is somewhere in the region of €5 billion out of the €70 billion, which makes it 6% or 7% rather than 15%.

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

The Member will have a minute added on to his time.

David McNarry (UUP, Strangford)

There are various figures; one can take them one way or another, and I will stick with the 15% that I suggest for the toxic assets held by Irish banks in Northern Ireland.

The debate is all about getting information, and the best way to get it is through what I hope the Finance Minister will be doing on this matter. That 15% is sufficient reason for the First Minister, the deputy First Minister, the Finance Minister and the Minister of Enterprise, Trade and Investment to be proactively engaged with the Irish Government looking after Northern Ireland’s interests in the context of any solution that the Irish Government might find for their banking loan and asset situation. That is quite simple.

The national assets management agency will obviously have an impact on the potential disposal of significant assets located in Northern Ireland — most notably, land and building development assets. That is where we come in. That point was made in the debate on the Second Stage of the National Asset Management Agency Bill 2009 by Brian Lenihan, the Republic’s Finance Minister. He said:

“40% of these loans are cash flow producing.”

They are not totally no-hope loans. Over the 10-year time frame envisaged, he continued:

“The cash flow produced will be sufficient to cover interest payments on the NAMA bonds and operating costs.”

I am glad that our Finance Minister is here. He needs to establish how many Northern Ireland asset-backed bad loans are in that 40% cash-flow-producing category, and how many are in the 60% “no-hope loan” category. Establishing that would go a long way to determining how NAMA would handle those Northern Ireland asset-based loans. Indeed, I say to the Minister that that would be no bad thing. In fact, it would be beneficial for us to know the extent of the bad loans that are floating in Northern Ireland and held in toxic banks other than those covered by NAMA. Perhaps the Minister can tell us what he knows about that situation.

That information will be critical in formulating the approach that we should take to the Government of the Irish Republic over the disposal or management of those assets, and to banks operating here that are outside the scope of NAMA. There is a question mark over what happens outside NAMA. We do not have an inside track on that. Therefore, if NAMA were to find that a substantial proportion of Northern Ireland assets were in the cash-flow-producing category, its attitude would be very different, because that would relieve the situation substantially, and this would become an asset management issue rather than the fire sale that Mr Farry talked about.

I would welcome comment from the Finance Minister as to the precise nature of the Northern Ireland assets that NAMA is likely to take into management. Will he confirm what proportion of Northern Ireland-based assets is cash-flow producing and what is not? I presume that he has done some homework on the matter before he enters into negotiations with the Republic, because information is everything in such a situation. Even if it only talks that he enters into, rather than negotiations, it is necessary to establish that information.

We in Northern Ireland also need to establish where our property assets are likely to be over the next two years. I would welcome informed comment from the Finance Minister on that matter, because it will have a direct impact on the cash-flow potential of property assets in Northern Ireland that are about to come into the ownership of NAMA. The other side of that coin is that NAMA-owned assets here will have a direct impact on the recovery potential of our property market, both domestic and commercial.

I appeal to the Minister to look again at, or at least to confirm the possibility of, unlocking the value of Government property assets, so that we can invest to protect and create jobs. I remind the Minister, who may say that it is not all his fault, that both he and his predecessor have presided over a doubling of unemploy­ment on their watch, and we do not need any more.

Declan O'Loan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, North Antrim)

Like Stephen Farry, I welcome the debate on NAMA. We need to be better informed about it, and the debate is helping us to do that.

I am surprised that Sinn Féin has tabled a motion on the economy. Its reputation on economics is not good and has been soundly rejected at the polls in the South. Gerry Adams, the president of Sinn Féin, recently said that his party is not interested in managing the economy. It strikes me that, perhaps not for the first time, Sinn Féin has come to the point where the extreme left meets the extreme right and they share the same position.

The extreme left has moved to an anarchist position. Jennifer McCann is up for seizing property; a fairly Stalinist approach, I thought. The extreme right has a total belief in market forces and would let the banks collapse irrespective of the consequences. The message to the people is the same from either stance. The extreme right would say “let them eat cake”; the extreme left would simply say “let them not eat at all”. That is where Sinn Féin finds itself; it is not engaging in serious debate on the issue.

Martin Ferris accused the Irish Government of the robbery of €12,000 from every man, woman and child. Martin Ferris is a man who would know about robbing from the banks, but I think on this —

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

On a point of order, Mr Speaker. How appropriate is it for the Member to make criminal accusations against another Member of a legislative body on this island, never mind an ordinary member of the public?

Declan O'Loan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, North Antrim)

I am happy to clarify: I make no suggestion whatsoever of any criminal imputation. One can know about a thing without any direct involvement.

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

Mr Speaker, I was of the view that you responded to points of order, not the person who is involved in the debate.

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

Order. I have heard the Member’s point of order, and I say to all Members on all sides of the House that privilege is not absolute. Let us be very careful of what we say in this House. I know that sometimes, in the cut and thrust of debate, Members can easily get carried away. I remind Members to be of good temper when they speak in this House in any debate.

Declan O'Loan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, North Antrim)

There were others who were involved in robbery, and Mr Ferris showed considerable adulation towards them quite recently.

It is clear that the people have already moved beyond the Sinn Féin position. Sinn Féin was involved, with others, in organising a protest against NAMA in Dublin a week ago, and only 1,500 people showed up. There is no national movement against NAMA any more, if there ever was.

Unfortunately, I am uncomfortable with the amendment proposed by the Alliance Party. Indeed, I was not terribly comfortable with some of Stephen Farry’s remarks, which were, in parts, indicative of a unionist, partitionist mindset. Stephen Farry should think about the fact that politicians need to state the direction in which they want to travel rather than to simply comment on the situation.

It is regrettable that the amendment proposed by the SDLP was not accepted. It recognised possible implications for the future conduct of banking, the property market and the wider economy of the region that arise from the NAMA legislation. That would have been a better stance for the Assembly to take.

Maurice (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

On a point of order, Mr Speaker. Is it in order for a Member to virtually read out an amendment that has been ruled out of order and that has not been accepted for inclusion on the Order Paper? What are we at?

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

No; that is not in order. I say to the Member, and to all sides of the House, that the decision not to accept an amendment should not be challenged on the Floor of the Assembly. I wish to make that absolutely clear, and I warn the Member on that issue.

Declan O'Loan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, North Antrim)

I am only saying that it would have been better for the Assembly to adopt the position that was outlined in the amendment proposed by the SDLP.

We all agree that there is a need for the banking system to be fixed and for credit to be available. The banks must be in a position to borrow in the international markets, but we know that that is not possible because of the high volume of high-risk property debts. That can be dealt with in three broad ways: recapitalisation, which could ultimately lead to nationalisation; asset guarantee schemes; and asset management schemes such as NAMA. All three methods have been used in different situations in different countries. However, NAMA was not chosen by chance. A sound evidence-based approach led to its selection, and it has been approved by the International Monetary Fund (IMF) and the European Central Bank (ECB).

Although it is certainly not risk free, the NAMA scheme contains important protections. The banks take a considerable hit at the outset. They receive €54 billion against a book value of €77 billion and are, therefore, €23 billion down straight away. The current value of those assets is €47 billion, and the Government hope to make up the €7 billion gap as the assets increase in value. We should note that €2·7 billion is in the form of subordinated bonds, and those are payable only if the Government go into profit.

The legislation also contains provision for a further levy if the Government are still making a loss, so significant protections are available. The rise in value to make a profit is quite modest: 10% over a 10-year period. If the scheme works, the banks will be able to raise capital as private finance. If not, the Government will capitalise the banks and take an equity share.

Most advice says that it is in the best interests of the Irish economy to keep the banks in the private sector and to have at least three competing banks. There is understandable anger in the community against the banks and property developers. There has been regulatory failure and dubious practice. Developers will not profit from the NAMA scheme, and I welcome its commitment to include a windfall tax on rezoned land.

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

I ask the Member to draw his remarks to a close.

Declan O'Loan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, North Antrim)

The Irish Government have offered to consider that at its Committee Stage, and it is important that they consider other reasoned amendments.

Simon Hamilton (DUP, Strangford)

I am not really interested in getting into a debate on the merits, or otherwise, of legislation that is before the Irish Parliament. It is up to the Members of that elected institution to debate and discuss that legislation. However, I concur with some of the comments of a Member who spoke previously. A Sinn Féin spokesman described the NAMA legislation as “the crime of the century.” It is a bit rich for anyone in the republican movement, given its history of major crimes against banks across Ireland, to describe NAMA as “the crime of the century.”

Peter Weir (DUP, North Down)

Given the republican movement’s past, it would be in the best position to judge.

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

A minute will be added to the Member’s speaking time.

Simon Hamilton (DUP, Strangford)

The Member is right, because €70-odd billion is much more than £25 million.

I do not want to get into the whys, wherefores or merits of NAMA. I accept the point that several Members made that a fire sale should be avoided, even though the €4·8 billion of assets in Northern Ireland is significantly less than the €20 billion than was mooted at one time.

There are still potential negative consequences for Northern Ireland in the deflation of an already depressed property market, and there may be an impact on the public sector in Northern Ireland as we try to realise best value for unused, unwanted assets in the public sector portfolio.

I support the line of action that the Minister has already engaged in through bilateral discussions with his counterpart in the Irish Republic. He intends to have more such talks in the future. As we move forward, any direct line of communication from any advisory panel or board to the Department of Finance and Personnel is to be welcomed in order to avoid some of the serious consequences that might result from NAMA not dealing appropriately with assets in Northern Ireland.

I wish to touch upon the more important conclusion that we in Northern Ireland can draw from the fact that the Irish Parliament has to pass that legislation, or, if not that legislation, something else, and it is the picture that it paints of the current Irish economy and the explosion of the economic argument for Irish unity. Today, that argument is as busted as the Irish banks themselves.

For years, we were told that the unionist argument against Irish unity that was based on economic reasons was disappearing and that the Irish economy was becoming the most vibrant, dynamic and innovative economy, not only in Europe, but in the world, and deserved to be called the Celtic tiger economy. That Celtic tiger has well and truly turned into a pussycat. We now have very clear evidence, as shown by the introduction of the legislation in the Irish Parliament, that that so-called strong economy was not built on solid foundations but on severely shifting sands, which have now collapsed under the Irish people.

Declan O'Loan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, North Antrim)

Will the Member give way?

Simon Hamilton (DUP, Strangford)

Hold on.

We have heard the International Monetary Fund say that the Irish economy’s contraction will be the most severe of any advanced economy in the Western World. I will now give way to the Member.

Declan O'Loan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, North Antrim)

Does the Member not admire the position of the Irish Government? Yes, they have got into difficult circumstances, but they are finding their way out of it. I have seen economists’ prognostications to the effect that, in a short time, the Irish growth rate is expected to rise again to 4%. I admire the Irish Government’s independence of action. They have a problem; they are dealing with it, and they will get out of that situation. I wish that I could say the same about our economy and the solutions that have been offered.

Simon Hamilton (DUP, Strangford)

The days of 4% growth or, indeed, any percentage of growth in the Irish economy are a long way off. The heady days of near-double-digit growth in the Irish economy have long since passed, probably never to return. Again, that underscores the argument that such growth was temporary, and it is now going back to more appropriate levels.

One only has to look at all the evidence: the contraction of the economy by 13·5% between 2008 and 2010; the jobless figures have gone from being the second lowest to the second highest in Europe; the Budget deficit has grown to four times the limit allowed by the EU institutions; the Irish Republic’s credit rating was, embarrassingly, lowered by Standard and Poor’s, and that was a real slap in the face for the Irish economy; and so on and so forth to the collapse in the construction industry and the cuts worth billions of euro that the public sector faces as a result of the McCarthy report.

No matter what anyone says, Northern Ireland has been well cushioned by the UK economy. There are longer-term benefits in remaining part of the fourth largest economy in the world. This is a global problem; it is not one for independent action. It will be sorted out on a global basis.

While the Northern Ireland economy, small as it is, is represented in the room, at the table, at the G8 or G20 summits, or wherever big decisions on financial futures are being taken, who is outside with his face pressed to the window looking in? It is the Taoiseach of the Irish Republic. He has always been, and always will remain, on the outside. Whatever legislation is passed in the Irish Republic —

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

The Member’s time is up.

Simon Hamilton (DUP, Strangford)

— the economic argument has well and truly gone.

Paul Butler (Sinn Féin, Lagan Valley)

Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. Tá mé sásta labhairt ar son na tairisceana seo, ach ní dóigh liom go mbeidh mé ábalta tacú leis an leasú..

I am grateful to be allowed to speak in the debate. I should point out that some of the debate, particularly the contributions from the DUP and the SDLP, focused on attacking Sinn Féin and negative politics, and Declan O’Loan attacked members who sit in Leinster House. The DUP said that the banks should not be nationalised, but it talked about that option as though it were the product of far-left loony thinking. However, one of the banks involved in the crisis, the Anglo Irish Bank, has already been nationalised, and the Irish Government heavily subsidise the Allied Irish Bank. Those who state that Sinn Féin’s economic policy is illiterate and that the banks must not be nationalised should look at what is happening in other parts of the world: Sweden had to do exactly that to get out of the economic crisis.

NAMA has been described as one of the biggest gambles on the property market by any Government in western Europe. It has been likened to placing €60 billion of taxpayers’ money on the roulette wheel in the local casino. The problem for the North is that the toxic assets of approximately €5 billion will affect the economy here.

I welcome the recent statement by the Minister of Finance and Personnel, Sammy Wilson, that he wanted to have a formal role in how NAMA affects the North, particularly its property prices. However, it is not good enough simply to have a formal role. Sinn Féin’s motion advocates that the matter be dealt with through the institutions. I acknowledge that the Assembly is one of the North’s institutions but what about the interlocking bodies, such as the North/South Ministerial Council? It is not enough to receive assurances from Brian Lenihan and the Taoiseach that they will sort out the problem. Fianna Fáil, the banks and the developers got us into this mess, and NAMA is being set up to deal with the toxic debt here and in the South of Ireland. We must have a more formalised role because, when NAMA is established by the legislation, its role will be subject to little public scrutiny. It will deal with toxic debts relating to land and developments here in the North, and the Assembly will have little or no say in that. We must, therefore, do more than seek assurances from Brian Cowen and Brian Lenihan about NAMA’s impact on the North.

The long-term impact must also be considered. People have been talking as though establishing NAMA will deal quickly with the entire issue, but that will not be the case. The North could be lumbered with the effects on the economy here and on the island of Ireland for the next 10 to 15 years.

The amendment, which attempts to water down the Sinn Féin motion, is unnecessary and, in some ways, partitionist. We must address the issue on an all-Ireland basis because it will impact on the economies of both jurisdictions. I welcome the Minister’s statement that he wants to play a formal role. However, through the North/South Ministerial Council, of which the Minister of Finance and Personnel is a member, we must take a direct hands-on approach as to how NAMA will affect the North’s economy and ensure that we are kept up to speed. Go raibh maith agat.

Alasdair McDonnell (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast South)

I am glad that the debate is taking place today, because it highlights that, whatever our political persuasion or party, a close working relationship exists between the financial structures, North and South. I am not wildly excited about NAMA; equally, I am not wildly excited about anything to do with the banking and liquidity crises.

To me, NAMA represents the least-worst option. Nationalisation would be the worst possible option: it would weigh us down, because the banks involved have assets not just in Northern Ireland but in the US and across Europe, thus creating very difficult circumstances for a nationalised bank to unravel.

As others have said, there are serious implications for the economy of the island as a whole. There are also serious implications for downstream financial jobs and for the construction industry. I think that the proposer of the motion, Jennifer McCann, said that we need a joined-up economic approach. I agree. However, the motion deals only with banks that are based in the Irish Republic. Effectively, we have no local banks. In addition to those that are based in the Irish Republic, at least 70% of Ulster Bank’s parent company is nationalised and the Northern Bank is owned by Danske Bank.

Many aspects of regulatory failure come from a global and a local perspective. I apologise to Mr McNarry, but I will pick up on a point about which there was some debate and discussion. All my figures suggest that some 6% of the Irish banks — assets that are proposed for NAMA — which is a figure of some £5 billion, are based in Northern Ireland. The figure of 15% probably arises from the fact that considerably more of those banks’ assets are based in the UK.

To be honest, I am somewhat confused, because the motion contains serious contradictions. I will not go into the details, but it is very worrying for those of us who have an interest in jobs and the economy. The president of Sinn Féin recently said that the party was:

“not interested in managing the economy.”

If I have got that quotation wrong, it needs to be corrected.

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

It is clear that the SDLP has hired a group of individuals to read through Sinn Féin’s speeches and pick out half sentences, half quotations and half remarks, and then its Members come into the Chamber like excited children and read them out. If SDLP MLAs quote the president of Sinn Féin or any other politician, they should read out the entire content of the speech from which the quotation came.

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

The Member has an extra minute in which to speak.

Alasdair McDonnell (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast South)

I have no difficulty with that if it is standard practice, but the problem is that Sinn Féin, from its president down, has misquoted and misunderstood everybody else for years. If that is a misquotation, I am glad for it to be corrected, because I am keen for Sinn Féin to take an interest in the economy.

I am bewildered by the thrust of the motion. It gives us the sense that Sinn Féin is out of touch and may not be up to speed on the economy, because it backed the bank guarantee system that was introduced in the Irish Republic some time ago. That scheme was the precursor to, and the necessary foundation for, NAMA. Those of us who try to observe these matters, and who read newspaper stories on what is going on, are confused, because we are shuffling from pillar to post. It is important that there be consistency, because we will get out of this financial crisis only if we are consistent and responsible.

NAMA is by no means perfect. It has many faults, and I have a degree of scepticism about much of it. However, as I said earlier, the Government’s intervention is the least-worst option. Our banking system, North and South, cannot be unravelled or separated. It is completely interconnected. Many of the banks, such as the Bank of Ireland and the Allied Irish Bank, operate on an all-island basis.

If the Irish Government were not to step in now to reduce some of the risk and increase the flow of credit to those banks, we in the North — homeowners, business owners and everybody else — would suffer severely from the lack of liquidity. Ordinary, decent hard-working people have suffered enough.

I could stand here all day condemning the stupidity and mistakes of the banks, but I will not do that. They have made major mistakes; setting up NAMA is not bailing out the banks, it is an attempt to ensure that there is liquidity.

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

The Member must bring his remarks to a close.

Alasdair McDonnell (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast South)

Mr Speaker, I am preparing a dossier which I intend to take not just to the Prime Minister, but to the Irish Minister for Finance to resolve some of those issues.

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

The Member’s time is up.

Alasdair McDonnell (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast South)

I am doing that because our people need help and support with the lack of liquidity.

Alban Maginness (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast North)

The issues raised by the motion highlight the interdependence between the North and the South, whether or not people like that from their different political points of view. However, I say that in a non-partisan way, because we must be sensible about the economic and financial crisis that we are in. It is important that the North and the South co-operate to achieve a beneficial end to that crisis for all our people.

There is no value in adopting a partisan political stance, and I think that the Minister of Finance has shown the way by adopting a sensible and pragmatic approach to the problem. I believe, Mr Speaker, that the Minister is blushing with embarrassment. However, his first important step was to meet the Minister for Finance, Brian Lenihan, in Dublin.

The Minister indicated on radio this morning, as I am sure he will tell the House, that he is prepared to engage with any Committee that is set up to liaise between North and South, to monitor what is going on and, quite sensibly, to address problems in our own economy. I warmly welcome that. It is important that all of us in the House endorse that point of view. We should continue to monitor the situation closely.

One thing on which we all agree is that there cannot be any fire sale, because that would simply worsen our economic and financial crisis. That must be avoided. However, there must be a measured, managed way of dealing with the assets in Northern Ireland that NAMA will take over from the banks. Those assets are apparently in the order of €4·6 billion, which is a very substantial amount of money. For the welfare of all our people, it is important that we get this right: no fire sale. Those assets must be properly managed.

Of course, as Mr McNarry pointed out, not all the loans involved are impaired. There are assets that can produce an income, and, helpfully for all of us, generate wealth in our society. We have to get those assets working. Given a common purpose and North/South solidarity, I am reasonably confident that we can work through the economic problem: we have to, otherwise we will all go down the tubes. Therefore, it is important that all of us in the House welcome whatever efforts are made.

I understand that there are different ways to approach the situation, of which NAMA is just one. Nationalisation is one way, and asset guarantee schemes are another. However, this is the way that the Irish Government have chosen to do it, so we must work with that system. Let us get on with the job, because there is no merit in raking over the ashes. We must be optimistic about the future, work through things and create a better situation for all of us.

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

The Member should bring his remarks to a close.

Alban Maginness (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast North)

I ask Members to support all efforts to manage the system.

Sammy Wilson (DUP, East Antrim)

The debate has been useful in showing the concerns that exist about the issue in Northern Ireland. It has also been useful because it demonstrates some Members’ economic illiteracy, which we will have to do something to correct over the next number of months.

Taking up from where the previous Member finished, co-operation between Northern Ireland and the Irish Republic on this issue can be beneficial to both jurisdictions. Although I and my party are not happy with the political trappings of co-operation, which sometimes only occurs for political reasons, when there are good, solid reasons for the Government in Northern Ireland to work with the Government in the Republic, my party will play its part, and I, as the Minister of Finance and Personnel, will play my part individually.

Although some people, as they pointed out during the debate, recognise that the Celtic tiger, to use the term that Mr Hamilton used, has become a pussycat, it is in none of our interests for the economies of the Republic and here to be in a weak state, because an element of cross-fertilisation and cross-trade benefits both sides. The Member made an observation that, although correct, is not something that we wish to see happen.

I shall deal with a number of points made during the debate. I do not wish to get into a debate about the rights and wrongs of NAMA. The Irish Government have taken a decision about the way in which they will manage the difficulties that banks based in their jurisdiction got into as a result of sometimes lending unwisely on assets that should not have been lent on in the first place. That is a decision for the Irish Government. As far as I am concerned, the only input that I wish to have is that if they set up that system, I want to ensure that issues affecting Northern Ireland are protected through the Government-to-Government or Minister-to-Minister co-operation that we have.

I do not accept that NAMA should fall within the remit of the North/South Ministerial Council, and that is one of the reasons why I am not happy with the motion or the amendment. Indeed, that point was accepted by the Council. Given that a joint communiqué was issued, I assume that the deputy First Minister took the same view. The North/South Ministerial Council agreed that the two Finance Ministers will deal with the issue. We do not believe in widening the North/South Ministerial Council’s remit, and I believe that if and when co-operation is needed, there are other ways to achieve it.

Sinn Fein has got its economic analysis of NAMA wrong; it is not the crime of the century, and it is not privatised profit and socialised debt. If the Member who had made the comment had looked at how NAMA is to work, she would know that the burden of risk falls on the banks, not on the Government.

Jennifer McCann (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

Is it not the case that the burden of risk and the financial implications of NAMA fall on the taxpayer, rather than on the banks?

Sammy Wilson (DUP, East Antrim)

As I said, I do not want to get into the detail of NAMA. The assets have been discounted already by 30%. If there is a profit on the eventual sale of the assets, it goes to the taxpayer, not the banks. If there is a loss, a levy is imposed. I do not know where the Member sees any risk to the taxpayer.

However, I do not want to get into a debate about the rights or wrongs of NAMA. That is a decision that the Irish Government are taking and it is one that we will work with, doing our best to safeguard Northern Ireland’s interests.

The second point that has come out of this debate is the extent of Northern Ireland’s exposure to all those debts. When he gets a black picture, Mr McNarry’s usual style is to try to paint it blacker. Even if he does not have the figures to paint it blacker, he will make an eejit of himself to produce a blacker picture. He was not happy at the figures that were given and that seemed to be available to every other Member, which stated that 6% of the debts that the banks hold are based here in Northern Ireland. He was even given the figures: €4·8 billion out of a total of €77 billion. So, if he did not believe the percentages, he could have worked it out for himself. If he does not know how to do it, it is done by putting one over the other and multiplying by 100. That is approximately one fifteenth. A common mistake made by very poor GCSE students is to think of a fraction as a percentage; perhaps that is where Mr McNarry got 15%. However, one fifteenth is 6%; it is reached by multiplying one fifteenth by 100.

Mr McNarry wanted to paint the picture blacker. He claims that it is 15%, but it is not; it is 6%. However, as Mr Farry has pointed out, that is still a significant figure for the Northern Ireland economy.

Mr McNarry then asked me whether I had done my homework and found out the nature of those debts, including how many of them could produce a cash flow and would, at the end of the day, be worth something. They are all assets, so they are always worth something. The mistake would be to try to get rid of them quickly because, in current circumstances, they will be worth less. The whole idea of having 15-year bonds is to allow for their release over a period of time, so that the assets could be sold when the best value could be obtained.

Mr McNarry shows his ignorance, not this time with figures, but with his understanding of the nature of assets. An asset is bound to have intrinsic value. Its intrinsic value will change over time. The Irish Government are trying to allow as long a period as possible during which those assets can be turned back into cash to safeguard against the diminution of their value in the way that some have suggested. I noticed that Mr Butler wanted them sold quickly. That would be an absolute disaster, given the current state of the market.

I asked about the division of the assets, but the Irish Government are not in a position to answer at present. However, we know that about 40% of them are in the form of development land and the rest are in the form of commercial loans or in property. I assume that commercial loans and property will produce some return.

The third question that was asked was: how can we avoid a fire sale? A number of Members asked that question. It was one of the concerns that we had when we went to see the Irish Minister. I put it to him bluntly that there was a cynical view in Northern Ireland that because the political implications of selling assets and their value falling would be less in Northern Ireland than in the Republic, the fear was that, if money had to be realised quickly, Northern Ireland would be the place where the assets would be sold. He talked straight to me and I talked straight to him on the issue. The point that he made — sensibly, if one thinks of it — was why would the Irish Government wish to sell off assets quickly, make a loss on them and not realise their full value.

Do not forget that — Mr O’Loan gave the figures very accurately — the rate of discount is 30%. The Irish Government have paid €54 billion for assets that are currently valued at €47 billion. An uplift of 10% over 10 years would still leave them about 45% below the 2006 peak level and with a fairly low value attached to them. Why would the Irish Government sell those assets off quickly because, once they get to the break-even point, the profit goes to the taxpayer? There is no incentive for them to sell the assets off quickly. The mechanism —

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

The Minister may be aware of the recent case in which the ACC brought a major Irish business developer, Liam Carroll, to court. When challenged about the value of his property, he admitted that it was worth not 70% but 25% of what was expected originally. If that is spread across the economy, the Irish Government may have no choice but to sell off even failed assets to recoup some money. They will not recoup all their money, but they may have to recoup some of it.

Sammy Wilson (DUP, East Antrim)

The 30% discount rate that has been given is, of course, an average figure. The Irish Government have been quite upfront about the fact that it is an average figure, which means that some assets will have a discount of less than 30% and some more than 30%. The whole point of buying time by having 15-year bonds is to deal with the particular problem that the Member has raised. There will not be a tendency to go for a fire sale.

However, the third point that has been made is that we have assurances, but what guarantee do we have and what input do we in Northern Ireland have to the operation of NAMA? My preference would have been — again, I will be blunt — to have had someone on the board of NAMA. That was not possible. The Irish Minister and I then looked at what other mechanism might be available. He suggested that there could be direct input through the advisory committee.

David McNarry (UUP, Strangford)

I am sure that the Minister will indulge someone who he has referred to as an eejit and ignorant. If that is the way that he wants to contribute to debates in the Chamber, so be it; there will be another day.

The Minister talks about his preference to have someone on the board of NAMA, and presumably that is to gain information. Can he illustrate to the House whether such information is being sought from those banks outside NAMA in Northern Ireland that have toxic debts? What is he doing to secure that information? Is he looking to put someone onto the boards of the banks, the Treasury and any outfits that there are that are concerned about what we do not know? The Minister may, of course, know more than us, which is why we are having this debate.

Sammy Wilson (DUP, East Antrim)

When I spoke about the Member’s figures and his ability to manipulate or work them —

David McNarry (UUP, Strangford)

It is nothing to do with figures: just answer the question.

Sammy Wilson (DUP, East Antrim)

Mr Speaker, I will decide how I respond to the points that the Member has made.

I indicated not that I thought that the Member was an idiot, but that, when he sought ways of painting as black a picture as possible, he was prepared to make himself an idiot by ignoring what the figures said. The Member knows full well that the Assembly, and I as Finance Minister, do not have the ability to put anyone on the board of a privately owned bank in Northern Ireland: he knows that.

David McNarry (UUP, Strangford)

What about the information?

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

Order.

Sammy Wilson (DUP, East Antrim)

The information about the assets, which NAMA will take over, will be known to the Irish Government once all those assets have been taken into NAMA, and I will seek the detail of that information.

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

The Minister’s time is up.

Sammy Wilson (DUP, East Antrim)

I thank Members for taking part in the debate. I hope that we have given an indication, at least, that we are trying to deal with the issue in a constructive manner. I will continue to work with the Minister for Finance in the Republic to make sure that Northern Ireland is not placed at a disadvantage.

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

I call Sean Neeson to make a winding-up speech on the amendment. He has five minutes in which to do so.

Séan Neeson (Alliance, East Antrim)

I welcome the debate, and it has shown that the issue is controversial. NAMA has caused deep divisions in the Republic of Ireland, even among academics. However, this debate is not about the pros and cons of NAMA. Although it will impact on Northern Ireland, the issue is one for the Government in the Republic of Ireland. However, our Ministers have an important role to play in safeguarding the interests of the people in Northern Ireland who will be affected by NAMA.

(Mr Deputy Speaker [Mr Molloy] in the Chair)

I know that the Minister of Finance and Personnel has met Brian Lenihan and has reported back to the Assembly, and I know that junior Minister Gerry Kelly has met representatives from the Republic’s Government. If the legislation goes through, assets in the region of €5 billion in Northern Ireland will be affected, as other Members have said. It is worth remembering that there was considerable investment in Northern Ireland by Republic of Ireland developers when the boom in the Republic was forging ahead.

I was struck by a recent article by John Simpson in the ‘Belfast Telegraph’, and I agree with the comments that he made. He said:

“There are two governments, north and south; two monetary systems; two inter-dependent economies, there are more than two monetary authorities to supervise the banking system. Financial and business issues do not segregate.”

He went on to say:

“setting up NAMA contrasts sharply with the methods developed by the UK Government to support the clearing banks. NAMA will take responsibility for non-performing bank loans. It will ‘buy’ the loans not at knock down prices, reflecting the present state of the property market, but at fair values.”

We must address what is meant by “fair values”, and I know that that is being considered in the Republic of Ireland.

It is also hoped, not least by me, that NAMA will encourage banks to resume lending. Members, including Jennifer McCann, who spoke in the debate, said that banks must be prepared to help small businesses. The Committee for Enterprise, Trade and Investment dealt with the issue, and I welcome that.

Stephen Farry said that the focus of the debate is on the real interests of Northern Ireland, and he went on to say that, fiscally, we are dependent on the UK Exchequer. He also said that a fire sale would be damaging to our economy.

Declan O'Loan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, North Antrim)

The Member said that we are not debating the principle of NAMA. However, if the amendment were agreed, the first part of the motion would read:

“That this Assembly expresses deep concern at the possible negative economic consequences for Northern Ireland arising from the potential National Asset Management Agency legislation currently under consideration in the Oireachtas”.

Does the Member not agree that, if the amendment were carried and became the view of the Assembly, when TDs debate the NAMA legislation in the Dáil, they would think that the Northern Ireland Assembly was, in principle, opposed to that legislation?

Séan Neeson (Alliance, East Antrim)

I made it clear at the outset that the important issue is how we deal with NAMA itself, and the fact that that proposed legislation is being debated in the Dáil demonstrates that it has not yet been enacted. However, it is important that the Assembly and the Executive are prepared to address the interests of the people in Northern Ireland; essentially, that is what the debate is about.

I am disappointed that Declan O’Loan ruled out support for the amendment. The Alliance Party is trying to convey the fact that NAMA will have an impact on the people of Northern Ireland and on the Assembly. Therefore, I am disappointed that the Member will not support the amendment.

Paul Butler said that NAMA represents one of the biggest gambles taken by any Government. However, we must accept that we are in the midst of one of the worst financial situations for many years, and it is important that the Government in the Republic of Ireland make some plans to deal with that problem.

Francie Molloy (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

The Member should bring his remarks to a close.

Séan Neeson (Alliance, East Antrim)

I ask Members to support the amendment.

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. Reflecting on the importance of today’s debate, I think that it is clear that it is not divorced from conversations in the media and elsewhere last week on how the Executive will ensure that their Budget will deliver for the people on this part of the island. At heart, this is an economic debate, and, although last week’s debate centred on how to divide up the block grant, it should instead have concentrated on how to stimulate our economy to ensure that we have the resources to deliver for the people on this part of the island. In Sinn Féin’s view, that cannot be done separately from our neighbours in the Twenty-six Counties, and an all-Ireland approach to the economy is the only way forward.

I listened carefully to the Minister of Finance and Personnel’s comments on Mr Hamilton’s remark about the economic downturn across the border. I will paraphrase him: we should not look across the border and say, “Ah well, up yours, your economy is in bad shape.” If the South’s economy is in bad shape, the North’s economy is also in bad shape. We cannot ignore that fact, and we must examine the issue with respect to all-Ireland economic growth.

DUP contributions to the debate, although predictable, were disappointing, even from its own electorate’s perspective —

Ken Robinson (UUP, East Antrim)

On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. I am not sure whether the acoustics in the Chamber are better than I thought they were, but will the Member clarify whether he used parliamentary language in his description of the state of the adjoining economy?

Francie Molloy (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

The Speaker will examine the Hansard report and make a decision on that.

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

I look forward to the Speaker’s ruling.

In relation to DUP comments on the NAMA proposals, people cannot close their eyes and ears and hope that NAMA will go away, and people cannot adopt a unionist mindset. Even from a unionist perspective, the implications of NAMA must be understood with regard to what it will do to the economy here, with €4·8 billion to €5 billion worth of assets under the ownership of the National Asset Management Agency —

Alban Maginness (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast North)

Will the Member give way?

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

I will in just one second.

In his closing remarks, a DUP Member said that rather than set up structures around it, we should continue as we are. I am sorry, but if €5 billion worth of assets in this part of Ireland will fall under NAMA, we must set up structures around that and manage it.

Kind words from the Fianna Fáil Finance Minister will not reassure me. I am surprised that they reassure Sammy Wilson. We are looking at a Government that will, more than likely, go from power if a general election is called. As a republican, reassurances from a Fianna Fáil Minister do not go too far. We must ensure that we have structures around the NAMA proposals if they are passed by the Dáil, and there is no guarantee that they will be passed.

Contrary to what our SDLP friends tell us, Sinn Féin is not the only party opposed to NAMA. The Labour Party, the SDLP’s colleagues or sister party, is opposed to it. Fine Gael, another sister party, is opposed to it. The only party that supports the legislation in the Dáil is Fianna Fáil. The Green Party is calling an all-party delegate conference to decide its final approach. I know that it is embarrassing for the SDLP, as Fianna Fáil may be the party that it is involved with after it takes on a new leader. Fianna Fáil is the party that brought the economy to its present position, lectured Sinn Féin on being economically illiterate, led us down this path and left the economy of the Twenty-six Counties in a mess.

The legislators on this island have the responsibility to ensure that we bring forward sensible legislation and find a sensible way forward to ensure that we bring ourselves out of the economic downturn. The contributions from the SDLP concentrated mainly on insulting Sinn Féin, and the reason for that was to hide their embarrassment that Fianna Fáil, its sister party, created and governed over the current mess and is now trying to ensure that the developers and the landlords, of which the SDLP has many, will continue to make money on the backs of the taxpayers across the island of Ireland, not just across the line on the map. All the people in Ireland will end up paying for NAMA for many years to come. The figures do not stack up. As I said to the Finance Minister, the Dublin Government may have assessed that they will give 70% for the loans, but they do not know how much the loans — the bad assets — are worth.

The Carroll case — the first tested case in relation to the financial viability of a major developer — has been back and forth before the Dublin courts for several weeks. When Carroll was challenged over the value of his assets, he said that they were probably worth 25% of what they were a year ago. Nevertheless, the Dublin Government are assuring our Finance Minister that they will pay 70% of what they were worth. If one looks at the Carroll case, the Dublin Government will be paying 50% more than the assets are worth.

Sammy Wilson (DUP, East Antrim)

The figures are not based on assurances; they are based on the discount that the Irish Government are giving the banks for those loans. Do not put words into my mouth. I was not given an assurance; I was given the hard facts of the discounts. The Government are paying €54 billion for assets that are worth €77 billion.

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

With respect, my point proves that they may not be. The Carroll case proves that the Dublin Government do not know how much those assets are worth. They are paying €54 billion of taxpayers’ money for assets that they do not know the value of.

That brings me to the point of the fire sale. World politics may dictate that the economy will get worse, with growing tensions between the Western World and Iran and the continued instability of the Middle East. All those factors lead into the economy. If those matters get worse and property prices fall again, where does that leave us? We will be left with even worse assets than we had in the first place, and that will force not only the Dublin Government, but the European Central Bank, to start recouping some of their moneys. Will they take a loss? They may well have to. They will be in such a dire situation with regard to their cash flow and credit that they may have to start a fire sale. What have we got to ensure that a fire sale does not start here? We have assurances from a Fianna Fáil Finance Minister to our Finance Minister.

Sinn Féin is saying that we should forget about the assurances and ensure that the matter is dealt with through the North/South Ministerial Council and that, as our Finance Minister has proposed, if the NAMA Bill does pass through the Dáil and becomes legislation, we have places by right on the board, not by request. We were informed today that when the request was made that we have places on NAMA, we were told that that cannot be done. Why can it not be done? If the NAMA Bill becomes legislation, why does this House not insist, through the North/South Ministerial Council, that we have places on NAMA and that our views are represented there?

Declan O'Loan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, North Antrim)

Does the Member not realise that when he suggests that the Irish Government have simply snatched a figure out of thin air to offer to the banks for the loans, he is simply wrong? It has to be approved by the IMF and the European Central Bank and is subject to EU state-aid rules. The concept of the long-term economic value is the price that has to be paid under the rules, and the best estimates of that that can be made have been made. That is why the figure of €54 billion against the book value of €77 billion has been created.

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

The Member refers to several organisations that we should be reassured by. They are the wonderful people — the European Central Bank and the IMF, which have reigned over the collapse of the world economy — who have declared that the figures are correct. Those are hardly organisations to be reassured by. Even if those figures were based on reality, new information has come to light. One of the biggest developers in the Twenty-six Counties — indeed, he has developments across the world — stood in front of a court to say that his assets are worth only 25% of what they were worth last year. That is evidence. Surely there is an onus on the Fianna Fáil-led Government to reassess their current valuations of NAMA. The SDLP’s blind support of Fianna Fáil is a disservice, not only to people here but in the Twenty-six Counties. That party needs to stand up to Fianna Fáil and say that it has got it wrong and that it is time to reassess.

Sammy Wilson (DUP, East Antrim)

The Member has just written off the valuation carried out by the Irish Government, the IMF and the European Central Bank, but believes somehow that if the matter were to go to the North/South Ministerial Council, we would get all the assurance we need. That stretches his credibility a bit.

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

The Minister has challenged every environmentalist and expert on planet earth in his day, so it is not uncommon for politicians here to —

Sammy Wilson (DUP, East Antrim)

At least I had people backing me.

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

We have people backing us on this issue. Regardless of the valuations, the North/South Ministerial Council must be involved in the process.

Francie Molloy (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

Order. As I have some sense that there may be a Division on the issue, I will not put the Question now but will do so after Question Time. I, therefore, suggest that Members take their ease until Question Time begins at 2.30 pm.

The debate stood suspended.

Education

Jimmy Spratt (DUP, Belfast South)

1. asked the Minister of Education how many children failed to obtain a preschool place in the South Belfast constituency in each of the past 3 years. (AQO 90/10)

Caitriona Ruane (Sinn Féin, South Down)

The Belfast Education and Library Board (BELB) is not able to tell me how many children have not obtained a preschool place in the South Belfast constituency after the relevant process has been completed.

In the initial phase of admissions, parents are asked to nominate up to four places, and the boards then seek to place children in the provision chosen by parents. It is inevitable that some provision is oversubscribed and, even with four choices, some children will not secure a place. In May, parents of children who have not secured a place are advised of alternative provision, which may be able to facilitate them. It is up to the parents to apply to those providers, and the BELB has informed me that it does not update its records on whether children are placed successfully.

The situation is complicated in that parents may subsequently find provision in other areas. Obviously, this is one of the issues that I will bring to the education and skills authority (ESA) when it comes on board. If education and library boards identify an overall shortage of provision in their areas, my Department seeks to provide additional resources. This year, the five boards requested additional finance for a shortfall of 88 places, which my Department provided. The Department attaches a very high priority to early-years provision and will continue to work with the education and library boards and ESA to ensure that as many children as possible are able to benefit from the preschool year.

Jimmy Spratt (DUP, Belfast South)

I thank the Minister for her answer. There are many areas in which provision is lacking: Belvoir Park Nursery School and Fane Street Primary School require many more places, and provision at Blythefield Primary School has been closed. I am disturbed to hear that the BELB has not provided the Minister with details. I ask her to examine the serious lack of places in South Belfast. There are many children from ethnic backgrounds who have been unable to get preschool places. Will she give me an assurance that she will look into the matter and ask the Department to do the same?

Caitriona Ruane (Sinn Féin, South Down)

I will look into that matter, because early years are very important in a child’s life. The Member will know that we give priority to socially deprived children and those with birthdays in July and August. Some children from ethnic minorities will fall into those categories, but some will not. Once that requirement is satisfied, additional criteria for admission to particular preschool settings are the responsibility of each setting.

I will look into the issue, but the Member should note that the Department has funded the number of places that the five education and library boards requested.

Anna Lo (Alliance, Belfast South)

Botanic Primary School and Stranmillis Primary School are oversubscribed. Eighteen children are on the waiting list for Botanic Primary School, and Stranmillis Primary School has to divide into two part-time schools to provide two hours provision a day for each child.

Given that health visitors have contact with children and their families years before they enter preschool nurseries and primary schools, would it not be better for the Department and each of the education and library boards to hold discussions with health visitors so that we know roughly how many children will be going into preschool nursery schools and how many will need special help? Early intervention is crucial.

Caitriona Ruane (Sinn Féin, South Down)

Go raibh maith agat as an cheist sin. It is very important that the Department of Health, Social Services and Public Safety and the Department of Education work closely together, and my Department is working very closely with the Health Department. The education and library boards and ESA will also be working very closely together so we can have planned provision for all our young people.

We provide preschool places for 93% of our young people, and we need to increase that percentage. The Member will accept that there has been a significant increase in provision over the past few years. I welcome that increase, but there is no room for complacency, because preschool provision is very important for all children.

Dominic Bradley (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Newry and Armagh)

Go raibh míle maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as an méid eolais a thug sí dúinn go dtí seo. Tá ceist agam uirthi maidir le ról na Gaelscolaíochta ag an leibhéal réamhscolaíochta.

Will the Minister assure the House that the pre-school education expansion programme provides a level playing field for Irish-medium education?

Caitriona Ruane (Sinn Féin, South Down)

Go raibh maith agat as an cheist sin. Ceapaim, agus tá a fhios agam go gceapann an Comhalta freisin, go bhfuil sé an-tábhachtach go bhfuil réamhscolaíocht ann do na páistí atá ag dul chuig na bunscoileanna.

It is essential that children who are going to an Irish-medium primary school have preschool education, particularly when they are learning bilingually — dhátheangach. I can assure the Member, therefore, that Irish-medium preschool education is on a level playing field.

Equality is about meeting the needs of the Irish-medium community rather than always comparing it with the English-medium community. The Member will know that in the Irish-medium review, preschool and the naíscoileanna in relation to Irish-medium education is at the top of my agenda. There has, in the past, been discrimination against the Irish-medium sector. Many of the sector’s preschools were not on a statutory footing. Thankfully, we are now taking steps to redress that.

David Simpson (DUP, Upper Bann)

2. asked the Minister of Education what steps she has taken to end educational underachievement in working-class Protestant areas. (AQO 91/10)

Caitriona Ruane (Sinn Féin, South Down)

D’fhág thart faoi 11,00 páiste an scoil anuraidh gan cúig GCSE mhaithe, lena n-áirítear an litearthacht agus an mhatamaitic. Theip an córas oideachais anseo orthu. Tá fócas agamsa mar Aire Oideachais ar aghaidh a thabhairt ar an tearcghnóthachtáil do gach duine óg.

Last year, 11,000 children left school without five good GCSEs, including literacy and maths. They were failed in many ways by the system here. As Education Minister, my focus is on addressing underachievement for all young people. I welcome the Member’s concern about the deeply unequal system that we have and the changes that we will bring about and are bringing about.

I introduced ‘Every School a Good School: A Policy for School Improvement’ — ‘Gach Scoil Ina Scoil Mhaith’ — to raise standards in all schools across the North of Ireland. I will soon bring forward a strategy to raise standards in literacy and numeracy. I commissioned the ‘Achieving Belfast’ and ‘Achieving Derry’ initiatives to address the particular problems of underachievement in those cities. I am working through the North/South Ministerial Council to tackle underachievement, and we have set up a taskforce on Traveller education. We have also brought forward the review of special educational needs and inclusion, and transfer 2010 will lay the foundations of a system based on social justice, equality and academic excellence. That will end the disadvantage in post-primary admissions suffered by all children from disadvantaged backgrounds.

How, for example, did the transfer test serve the Member’s constituency of Upper Bann in 2008-09? There are four grammar schools and 12 non-selective schools in Upper Bann. In the grammar schools, 3% of children are entitled to free schools meals compared with 20% in the non-selective schools. The grammar schools have an average of three children per school who have special educational needs or have been statemented, compared with 37 children per school in the non-selective schools. The result of such inequality is that 44% of children living in Upper Bann — 700 children — left school without having achieved five good GCSEs, including literacy and maths. That is absolutely unacceptable to me, and I am sure that it is unacceptable to the Member.

Transfer 2010 will be supported by other key reforms aimed at raising standards, including revised curriculum entitlement framework for post-primary pupils, an early years strategy, support for newcomer pupils and the extended schools programme. My reforms focus on tackling underachievement and raising standards. I want to make sure that every young person has the same opportunity to succeed regardless of background, gender, sexual orientation or race, and regardless of how much their parents earn. It is really important that we deal with that legacy of disadvantage and discrimination.

David Simpson (DUP, Upper Bann)

I take it that the Minister agrees with her Department’s document, which gives eight reasons why underachievement exists. Only one of those eight reasons deals with the transfer to post-primary schools; every other point is about social and economic issues.

Caitriona Ruane (Sinn Féin, South Down)

Thankfully, there is now no transfer test. All educational experts understand clearly and have spoken out on the point that the transfer test divides young people socially. I outlined for the Member the statistics on free school meals and special educational needs. I hope that he is not suggesting that we continue with the two-tier system that disadvantages the 700 people whom our system is failing. I hope that his party understands the importance of ensuring equality for all people. The Member should, perhaps, meet the parents of those 700 people and explain how his party’s education policy favours children who are advantaged already.

Barry McElduff (Sinn Féin, West Tyrone)

Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. How has the transfer test previously served the working-class Protestant community, particularly that on the Shankill Road in Belfast? [Interruption.]

Francie Molloy (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

Order. The Minister has the Floor.

Caitriona Ruane (Sinn Féin, South Down)

The transfer test has disadvantaged every working-class community. I welcome Barry McElduff’s question. The transfer test has discriminated against children in the Shankill, 10 of whom got to a grammar school in 2008-09. It has discriminated against children in Sandy Row, in Upper Bann and in every constituency across the North. It has also discriminated against working-class Catholic children.

Earlier, I answered a question about minority ethnic communities. The current system discriminates against children from minority ethnic communities in particular. In many cases, English is their second language, yet they are expected to sit two one-hour tests. The curriculum has been distorted. Thankfully, we are now in a new era in which there is no 11-plus, no distortion of the curriculum, and no children sitting at the back of the class in primary schools while some are being taught and others are not.

Basil McCrea (UUP, Lagan Valley)

Does the Minister agree that the seeds of educational underachievement are sown in preschool and that most of the damage is done in primary school? The transfer test is largely irrelevant, because the damage has been done by the time children reach that stage. Will she explain why her party — and her party alone — refuses to sort the matter out, as is suggested in today’s ‘Belfast Telegraph’?

Caitriona Ruane (Sinn Féin, South Down)

I am glad that the Member accepts that damage is done by the transfer test; I noticed that he used the words “the damage has been done.” I am on record as speaking about the importance of preschool; I did so in response to an earlier question. Primary school is a key time in a child’s life. In the past, the primary curriculum has been distorted. Primary 5, primary 6 and primary 7 are key years in a child’s life. In the rest of Ireland, schools are teaching literacy, numeracy, science and various subjects so that when children enter second-level education, their literacy and numeracy skills are top class and enable them to tackle the wider range of second-level education subjects.

The departmental policy on transfer from primary school to post-primary school is transfer 2010. The Members opposite and their Executive Ministers had many opportunities to discuss that. I introduced proposals on three different occasions, and the Executive refused to discuss the matter.

Mervyn Storey (DUP, North Antrim)

Not true.

Caitriona Ruane (Sinn Féin, South Down)

That includes the Ministers from the party opposite, a Member of which has just said “not true”. That party refused absolutely to discuss it. Time has moved on, and I introduced transfer 2010, which is the policy of the Department of Education. It will make equality the cornerstone of the education system.

Francie Molloy (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

If the Member has a question I will let him in.

Mervyn Storey (DUP, North Antrim)

I have been on my feet two or three times, so I thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker.

Let me correct what the Minister of Education said about bringing the matter to the Executive two or three times.

Francie Molloy (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

The Member must ask a question.

Mervyn Storey (DUP, North Antrim)

The matter was brought to the Executive, and it was the Minister who would not discuss the paper. If she is so concerned about underachievement in the Protestant working class, when will she deal with the findings of her own report? My colleague referred to that report but she refused to answer his question. When will she deal with the findings of the NIAO and PAC reports, which clearly indicated that there is a problem with working-class Protestants? All she does when she comes to the House is to continually tell us that her priority is a language that represents fewer than 1% of the total population of children educated in Northern Ireland.

Caitriona Ruane (Sinn Féin, South Down)

I was elected having clearly stated my party’s position on inequality and academic selection. I am totally opposed to inequality and academic selection. I went to the electorate and I got elected on that basis, as did other members of my party. Perhaps, instead of blustering, the Chairperson of the Education Committee and his colleagues should go to the Shankill, the Waterside and Upper Bann, and all over the North, and explain why they support the retention of academic selection, when all the reports, including those that the Member mentioned, show that working-class Protestant and Catholic children are disadvantaged.

Simon Hamilton (DUP, Strangford)

3. asked the Minister of Education how she intends to ensure that the proposed education and skills authority board will be representative of the Northern Ireland community. (AQO 92/10)

Caitriona Ruane (Sinn Féin, South Down)

Fógraíodh an iomaíocht do bhallraíocht an údaráis oideachais agus scileanna go forleathan i mí Lúnasa. Tá gliondar orm leis an leibhéal suime a léiríodh: chuir 60 comhairleoir ceantair agus 161 ball den phobal i gcoitinne iarratas isteach le bheith ina mball den údarás.

The competition for membership of the board of the education and skills authority (ESA) was widely advertised in August. I am delighted with the level of interest that has been shown; 60 district councillors and 161 members of the general public submitted applications to be a member of ESA. ESA will play a key role in improving the delivery of education to our children and young people and in raising standards at all levels. It is vital, therefore, that the best people be appointed to drive ESA forward. Members will be appointed to ESA on the basis of merit, in terms of the skills and expertise that they can bring, in accordance with the rules of the Commissioner for Public Appointments.

ESA’s role will be to manage and deliver services according to the policies of the Minister of the day. That should be reflected in a relatively small, skills-based membership. Members are not being appointed to represent any particular interest or sector. I have proposed in the Education Bill that there will be general members and district councillors, with the councillors being the majority. I would like to see different political backgrounds represented in a broadly based councillor membership of the education and skills authority.

Simon Hamilton (DUP, Strangford)

Notwithstanding the necessity of merit and that nobody should be in position who is not suitable for the post, does the Minister not agree that, given the diversity of the education sectors in Northern Ireland and the diversity of ethos in those sectors, it is essential that all sectors be represented on the board of ESA, not just a handful that suit her own agenda?

Caitriona Ruane (Sinn Féin, South Down)

Members can be assured that I will follow the procedures of the Commissioner for Public Appointments to the letter.

Ken Robinson (UUP, East Antrim)

Given the enormity of the potential power that might be ascribed to the education and skills authority, will the Minister acknowledge that she must take steps to allay the fears across the education sector that the Education Bill will create an enormously over-centralised and bureaucratic super-quango?

Caitriona Ruane (Sinn Féin, South Down)

Currently, we have many different organisations and a lot of bureaucracy. We have five education and library boards, the CCMS and the Youth Council, and the system is incoherent. Mr Spratt asked me about preschool places in South Belfast; it is difficult to monitor whether children were placed in their parents’ second-choice school, because the Belfast Education and Library Board borders on other boards.

With ESA in place, we will have a much more cohesive, unified approach, more equality in provision across the board, and more coming together of different groups across the education sector. There has to be strict accountability, and I assure the Member that I will ensure that there will be strict accountability during my term as Minister. ESA and the Department are already working closely together to ensure a cohesive approach and equality for all communities across the Six Counties.

P J Bradley (Social Democratic and Labour Party, South Down)

Does the Minister intend to ensure that the ESA board will fully represent all communities across the North?

Caitriona Ruane (Sinn Féin, South Down)

I answered that question previously. I assure the Member that I will follow the code set out by the Commissioner for Public Appointments to the letter.

William McCrea (DUP, South Antrim)

4. asked the Minister of Education for an update on the current status of the building programme for Ballyclare Primary School, Straid Primary School and Thompson Primary School, in the South Antrim constituency. (AQO 93/10)

Caitriona Ruane (Sinn Féin, South Down)

Le deireannas, bhuail feidhmeannaigh Roinne le Bord Oideachais agus Leabharlainne an Oirthuaiscirt le cláir tógála a phlé, lena n-áirítear an clár do Bhunscoil Bhealach Cláir.

Departmental officials recently met with the North Eastern Education and Library Board to discuss building programmes, including that of Ballyclare Primary School. Major capital works for Ballyclare, Straid and Thompson primary schools are at revised economic appraisal stage. There is concern regarding the low enrolment at Straid Primary School, and my officials have requested an area-based planning statement from the board.

William McCrea (DUP, South Antrim)

Does the Minister accept that many children in my South Antrim constituency are being educated in intolerable conditions? When will she remove discrimination against the controlled sector and provide an appropriate, building programme to remove that disadvantage?

Caitriona Ruane (Sinn Féin, South Down)

I accept that many schools across the North, in every sector, are not up to scratch, and that that is simply not good enough. I have brought forward a capital programme. In 2008-09, my Department spent 99% of its capital investment budget. Currently, there are a total of 93 major capital projects ongoing, 25 of which are on site, with the remaining 68 in various stages of planning.

I am sure that the Member is not saying that we should not be taking action where numbers are dropping, because we must ensure that we use our money very wisely. We have to fulfil all the criteria of economic appraisals.

I met the Minister of Finance last week, in his capacity as an MLA, in relation to one of the schools in his constituency. He was the first to agree that we must adhere to our processes, and that we should not be building schools that will be subject to questions from the Public Accounts Committee in three of four years’ time, to explain why schools were being built in particular areas.

William McCrea (DUP, South Antrim)

Why are they not being built?

Caitriona Ruane (Sinn Féin, South Down)

I have already answered that, but I will repeat it; departmental officials recently met with the North Eastern Education and Library Board to discuss a number of building programmes, including that of Ballyclare Primary School. As regards Straid Primary School, my officials have requested an area-based planning statement from the board.

Paul Maskey (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. Will the Minister tell us when the next capital fund announcement will be made?

Caitriona Ruane (Sinn Féin, South Down)

The next capital funding announcement will be made in due course. My officials are working very hard and, as I said, we spent 99% of our capital investment budget last year. There are 93 major capital projects ongoing. To streamline the capital planning process further, projects will now proceed to design and development stage immediately after the economic appraisal has been approved. There are significant benefits to that revised process, including a significant reduction in the project development timescale. Projects will now proceed to procurement and will be on site very soon after the new starts announcement.

Thomas Burns (Social Democratic and Labour Party, South Antrim)

What steps is the Minister taking to ensure that the procurement of capital programmes will be free from the long delays that they are currently subject to?

Caitriona Ruane (Sinn Féin, South Down)

I have just answered that question, but I will do so again to avoid accusations that I have not answered your question. In order to streamline the capital-planning process further, projects will now proceed to project design and development immediately after the approval of the economic appraisal.

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

5. asked the Minister of Education what action her Department is taking to tackle fraud and suspected fraud, as outlined in the Public Accounts Committee report into suspected contract fraud in the Belfast Education and Library Board. (AQO 94/10)

Caitriona Ruane (Sinn Féin, South Down)

Cuirim fáilte roimh thuarascáil an Choiste, a tharraing aird ar cheisteanna maidir le cleachtais soláthair i mBord Oideachais agus Leabharlainne Bhéal Feirste. Bhí an-imní orm nuair a léigh mé cinneadh an Choiste ar nósanna imeachta an bhoird le déileáil le calaois amhrasta.

I welcome the Committee’s report, which highlights a number of very serious issues relating to procurement practices in the Belfast Education and Library Board. I was very concerned to read the Committee’s findings on the board’s procedures for dealing with suspected fraud. The case was originally reported to my Department in 2003, and the issues that are raised in the report are totally unacceptable. I expect only the highest standards of equality and transparency in public procurement.

During the course of the investigation, we have worked to ensure that our education partners’ procurement processes are open and transparent and have equality at their core. That has been vital in ensuring that contractors are granted equality when bidding for work. I have insisted that my Department takes all appropriate actions to ensure that this situation does not arise again, because I will not tolerate such activity. I am determined that we display a zero-tolerance approach to fraud across the education service.

As recognised by the Public Accounts Committee, I have overseen many improvements in the Department’s anti-fraud framework during my time as Minister. Notable improvements include the introduction of a comprehensive fraud risk analysis that is supported by enhanced fraud management across the education sector and the extension of a comprehensive annual fraud-reporting mechanism to include the education sector. I will also ensure that the education and skills authority examines the PAC report and that the lessons learned from the investigation are taken forward in the ESA’s procedures. I want procurement practices to represent best practice right across the sector and the public service.

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle agus a Aire. How will the Minister and the Department ensure that ESA does not make the same fundamental mistakes as the Belfast board? Indeed, some of the behaviour was deliberate fraud rather than mistakes. How can we ensure that the ESA does not fall into the same traps as the Belfast Board?

Caitriona Ruane (Sinn Féin, South Down)

I have answered part of that important question already. Under my watch, the Department takes a zero-tolerance approach to fraud. I put equality at the cornerstone of every single thing that my Department does, and the anti-fraud framework ensures that we minimise the risk of fraud. Key elements of that include adherence to our statutory duties on equality; the use of fraud risk analysis; an annual fraud report; and my staff’s attendance at the Civil Service-wide fraud forum. We also continue to promote our whistle-blowing policy to ensure that any individual can raise concerns of potentially illegal or improper behaviour confidentially, and we regularly survey our staff on their attitudes to fraud-related issues.

Danny Kinahan (UUP, South Antrim)

The Minister has broadly answered my question but not in detail. In light of the fiscal crisis, what lessons has the Minister learned from the case of the Belfast Board? What steps is she taking to ensure that full value for money is achieved in the proposed education and skills authority?

Caitriona Ruane (Sinn Féin, South Down)

I must make it clear that the suspected fraud happened prior to my time as Minister of Education. From the day and hour that I came into the Department of Education, I have put equality and adherence to statutory duties at its core — that is equality in procurement, access to services and funding. Placing equality and adherence to statutory duties at the core of our work is the best way to ensure that it does not happen again.

The other measures that have been taken include the fraud risk analysis, the annual fraud report, and our participation in ensuring that we spread good practice right across the Civil Service. We also work very closely with the Equality Commission and the Human Rights Commission, both of which are very concerned about many of the procurement issues, and they encourage good practice across the public sector. We also regularly survey staff on attitudes to fraud-related issues.

Employment And Learning

Trevor Lunn (Alliance, Lagan Valley)

1. asked the Minister for Employment and Learning for an update on the new programme-led apprenticeships initiative. (AQO 105/10)

Reg Empey (UUP, Belfast East)

Between its inception on Monday 7 September and Tuesday 22 September, 2,073 trainees in total have been enrolled on the programme-led apprenticeship programme. That figure comprises 393 females and 1,680 males, and it is likely to remain fluid as training suppliers continue to assess and add young people to the programme. As we are still within the assessment time frame, it is not yet possible to provide more detailed information on the programme, such as uptake by occupational area.

Trevor Lunn (Alliance, Lagan Valley)

I thank the Minister for his answer. Will he assure the House that that programme is only a stopgap initiative during the economic downturn and that employer-led apprenticeships will eventually become the main thrust of the Department for Employment and Learning’s initiatives when there is a subsequent upturn? What reaction has the Department had from employers so far? I realise that the programme is in its early days.

Reg Empey (UUP, Belfast East)

The decision to reintroduce programme-led apprenticeships is my Department’s response to the economic circumstances in which we find ourselves. I am personally committed to the employer-led scheme, because it delivers the best possible solution. However, Members must be aware that, had we left it simply as it was, given the number of employers that has ceased to take on apprentices this year, or has reduced its numbers dramatically, thousands of young people would have had no outlet. Many of them would have joined the ranks of those not in employment, education or training, of which there are already far too many.

I know that Members have concerns about the programme, but I have not changed my view. Young people have voted with their feet, and, in the first couple of weeks, more than 2,000 people signed up to the programme, for which they will be trained in a simulated work environment and receive a recognised qualification. It is not the best possible solution, but it is far better for young people to be in this programme-led scheme than for them simply to be on the dole. I hope that other Members take the same view.

Jim Shannon (DUP, Strangford)

I thank the Minister for his response and the encouraging statistic that more than 2,000 people have enrolled in the scheme. I take on board his remarks about that. In the programme-led apprenticeship scheme, does the Minister have anyone from industry to assist him in coming up with initiatives that will also help industry? We are all conscious that, in our communities and the boroughs that we represent, a great many apprentices want not only apprenticeships but jobs at the end of them. I am keen to know the answer to that.

Reg Empey (UUP, Belfast East)

Under the previous arrangements, an apprentice had to have a contract of employment with an employer. There is no doubt that that is the ideal way in which to conduct apprenticeships, and that is how it used to be done. The way in which our industry, unfortunately, allowed apprenticeships to slip is one of the mistakes that was made in the past 20 years. Some of the larger employers have stopped taking on apprentices completely. Naturally, we have consulted them. I know that one or two representative bodies have written to Members to indicate their concern about that. However, at the end of the day, we must make a choice. If employers will not provide contracts of employment, we cannot get apprentices into employer-led apprenticeships.

We were faced with a dilemma, and we concluded that it was far better at least to have young people in a work environment in which they would have probably only one day a week in a work placement rather than four days, which we would much prefer. As the Member said, the numbers speak for themselves, and I hope that they will grow. We had a target in mind of 2,500, and we are very close to that now. It is not the most ideal solution, but we have been in touch with employers.

In fact, I have spoken to some of the organisations that submitted written responses. When I talked to them privately, they understood the situation and appreciated that the programme-led scheme is a response to an emergency that is not of the Department’s making.

Patsy McGlone (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Mid Ulster)

What specific action is the Minister’s Department taking to ensure that apprentices are placed in longer-term training opportunities that give them some stability and ensure that, in the current downturn, they feel that some sort of future is being presented to them?

Reg Empey (UUP, Belfast East)

That is our primary concern. The apprentices will attain a recognised qualification at the end of their period in the programme-led scheme. However, if an opportunity arises for an apprentice to become employed, the Department will take a flexible approach so that the apprentice does not lose any of the time spent working towards a qualification. Given the circumstances, we must be flexible, and I have said that I will review the scheme after 12 months to see how it has gone and determine whether the young people are receiving training of the highest quality. The existing quality control mechanisms, which are backed by the Education and Training Inspectorate, will apply to the scheme; it will be subject to the same scrutiny and quality control as every other scheme that the Department operates. I hope that my answer will give Members confidence that standards will be maintained.

George Savage (UUP, Upper Bann)

2. asked the Minister for Employment and Learning for his assessment of the achievement by the Northern Ireland participant who was successful at the recent WorldSkills event in Calgary. (AQO 106/10)

Reg Empey (UUP, Belfast East)

The winning of a bronze medal at WorldSkills International in Calgary, where he competed against the most talented young people in the world, was a magnificent achieve­ment for Trevor Woods from County Fermanagh, who was the Northern Ireland competitor on Team UK. Northern Ireland has again shown that its system of skills training is world class and that its talented workforce has the high level of skills required to compete in the global economy. Members will remember that Northern Ireland also won a gold medal in Helsinki four years ago and a bronze medal in Japan two years ago.

George Savage (UUP, Upper Bann)

I thank the Minister for his answer. How has participation in the event benefitted the Northern Ireland economy? What is being done to prepare Northern Ireland participants for the next WorldSkills International event, which will be held in London in 2011?

Reg Empey (UUP, Belfast East)

I am one of four in a ministerial team that has, for the past two years, been preparing for the WorldSkills International event that will take place in London in 2011. The competition generates keen interest, as local heats and competitions are run in Northern Ireland and other parts of the UK. The Northern Ireland participant, Trevor, was chosen to be the only UK competitor in his particular field.

I attended the event in Calgary, at which more than 900 competitors represented over 50 countries in approximately 40 different trades and professional qualifications. The fact that Northern Ireland consistently wins medals and keeps competing is a great source of encouragement.

I must tell the House that some countries take the event extremely seriously. The South Koreans had a strong team at Calgary. Any member of that team who won a gold medal was given a house, and the reward for a silver medal was a car. In Northern Ireland, a medal winner is lucky to get a walk round the table. That puts in perspective how seriously some countries take the event. At no cost to employers, they are prepared to train their young people for two years and pay them a wage in the process. That is what Northern Ireland is up against.

Wallace (DUP, Belfast East)

3. asked the Minister for Employment and Learning how many people have enrolled in apprenticeships during the past two years, and of those, how many are continuing. (AQO 107/10)

Reg Empey (UUP, Belfast East)

During the two-year period from September 2007 to August 2009, of the 14,235 people who started new apprenticeships, 8,676 are continuing their training.

For those who do not continue, the reasons are many. Some may have been made redundant, and some change for better opportunities. However, the majority will have acquired skills and qualifications, including national vocational qualifications, technical certificates and/or essential skills.

Wallace (DUP, Belfast East)

It is important that young people can avail themselves of training schemes, especially in the economic climate with which we are faced. In light of the figures that the Minister quoted, does he intend to meet employers so that more schemes can be made available and so that those who commence will finish?

Reg Empey (UUP, Belfast East)

My Department is working with the Learning and Skills Development Agency Northern Ireland to develop retention strategies, which will be rolled out as best practice early in the new year. I am conscious that many people do not finish training schemes, but there are a variety of reasons for that, some of which are positive. We are already working with the universities on retention strategies, so there is no reason why we should not also work on retention strategies for apprentices.

We commissioned the Learning and Skills Development Agency to help to develop the strategy and to identify good practice. As the Member suggested, that will involve discussions with employers. I hope that the combination of those events and that action will result in a more consistent approach to finishing courses.

Claire McGill (Sinn Féin, West Tyrone)

Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. Will the Minister give his assessment of the number of people over the age of 25 who take up apprenticeships and how that scheme has been going recently? Go raibh maith agat.

Reg Empey (UUP, Belfast East)

I was waiting for the Member to say “in Strabane” at the end of her question. The programme is going well. The Member will be aware that we recently held a jobs fair in her area. I assume that she wants to mention that today, so I have done it for her. It was a successful, well-supported event in Strabane.

All in all, working with young people, and trying to ensure that we get the uptake and a consistent approach, is one way in which we can all make a contribution to ensure that our young people receive the training and support that they need and are able to play an important role in our economy.

Pat Ramsey (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

Will the Minister outline what actions his Department is taking to ensure that apprentices are treated fairly and that there is a consistent approach to the training of apprentices across Northern Ireland? The Committee received a report that expressed concerns because there is no model of good practice regarding the training.

Reg Empey (UUP, Belfast East)

By and large, the reports that we have received from the Education and Training Inspectorate have been reasonably positive because it regards the vast majority of training as being good or better, but there will always be shortfalls. The Member will know that, when such a large number of people is involved, the inevitable result will be some good training and some not so good training. However, we monitor the quality control, and the Education and Training Inspectorate is very rigid.

In my previous answer, I should have stated that some 43% of the apprentices are over 24 years of age, which is a significant figure. We consistently monitor quality control. At this stage, nothing of concern has come to my attention. However, the inspectorate has an ongoing programme of reviews and inspections, which can throw up difficulties from time to time. Indeed, it may be that we will have to take action in the near future because of one or two of the reports.

However, I assure the Member and the Committee that the inspectorate is rigorous. The Committee has already met the inspectorate and can call it in to talk to it at any time, so I am confident that our quality control is adequate. The Department took on board comments and criticisms made by the Public Accounts Committee (PAC) about a number of those schemes some years ago. I am sure that the Member is familiar with those comments and criticisms.

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

4. asked the Minister for Employment and Learning how many students paid for, but did not take, exams over the last two years. (AQO 108/10)

Reg Empey (UUP, Belfast East)

Under further education colleges’ fees policies, full-time students under the age of 19 do not pay examination fees; that cost is met by colleges. There is also evidence that some students in full-time education in school also enrol in FE night classes to supplement their learning. Other students must pay the examination fees charged by awarding organisations. Most awarding organisations require their examination fees to be paid within a month of learners enrolling on courses leading to their qualifications. Further education colleges simply collect those fees and pass them on to the awarding body.

My Department does not hold information on the number of students from whom fees are collected but who not go on to sit their exams, nor is that information readily available from college records. Colleges advise that collecting that information would require significant manual checking of individual records, primarily because they do not record the sitting of examinations in a way that enables an automated comparison to be made between exam payments and enrolments.

To put that in perspective, checking the possible 150,000 records involved would take considerable time and could only be done at a disproportionate cost. In addition, it is likely that the information collected would be partial in nature. Unfortunately, I am not in a position to provide the information requested.

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. I thank the Minister for providing what information he has. However, his answer raises further questions. A significant number of people, some of whom are publicly funded, sits exams, yet we are not sure whether once that fee has been paid they sit exams. If I have correctly understood the Minister’s answer, that causes me concern.

More important, and I know that some of this work has been done, are exit interviews conducted with students who drop out of further education courses? It is important to establish why students do not complete their courses: exams are part of those courses. If we can establish the reasons for people exiting courses, corrective remedies can be put in place.

Reg Empey (UUP, Belfast East)

The point is that colleges act as a collecting agency for the awarding bodies. In other words, after a month it is normally the case that colleges have to collect the fees and pass them to an awarding body. There is no guarantee at that point that a candidate goes on to sit an examination. Something could happen in the meantime; for example, a job could come up.

As I said in my answer, the fees are paid by the college, and students under the age of 19 do not pay exam fees at all. Therefore, it is a cocktail of measures. I take the Member’s point and I am happy to consider the situation further, but the substantial and labour-intensive nature of finding out whether each individual sits an exam is a problem. At the end of the day, people who get the qualifications have sat the examinations, so one can deduce a certain amount.

As I said in answer to the noble Lord Browne, the fact is that we are looking at retention issues in general, but with regard to apprentices in particular. We are looking at retention consistently in higher education and have policies in place. I am happy to take on board the point that the Member makes about retention in further education.

Alasdair McDonnell (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast South)

I thank the Minister for his answers. Will he give Members any indication or has he any assessment of the drop off in the number of students who are applying to universities here as a result of the economic downturn? There is some impression among the public that fewer people are applying to go to university. Will he confirm or contradict that?

Reg Empey (UUP, Belfast East)

At this stage in the year, I cannot stand up and give accurate information about that. The anecdotal evidence is that dropout rates in our universities have been falling. On average, the two universities are running at about 10%. Policies are in place, and we are actively working with the universities, which, in turn, are working with students. We get the feeling that the figures are going down, but that was the position before the downturn had really bitten. I cannot confirm to the Member what the position is now, because there is a time lag between events occurring and the information becoming available. Much of the information on which we rely is gathered by the Office for National Statistics.

However, this year, the number of applications to universities was significantly up, by about 7%. Shortly, we will get the acceptance figures, but the anecdotal evidence that I have been getting is that there has been a surge in applications for further education colleges. I suspect that there has also been a lot of pressure on young people to stay at school.

Recently, I was in the US, and I met folk from George Washington University. Incidentally, the fees for that university, including one’s keep, are about $52,000 a year. Nevertheless, that university’s applications are up, so it may be that in a recession there is a drive into further and higher education, from which we can at least take some hope that more people will emerge with qualifications when the recession is over. That might be a future silver lining. When statistics become available, I will write to the Member.

Robert Coulter (UUP, North Antrim)

5. asked the Minister for Employment and Learning to describe how the Northern Ireland Bureau in Washington is developing its role to assist our Further and Higher Education sectors. (AQO 109/10)