Northern Ireland Assembly, 13 December 2010

391 contributions from 63 members. The official report.

Assembly Business

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

I give the House advance notice that a valid petition of concern was presented in relation to the last item of business today, the Second Stage of the Victims and Survivors (Disqualification) Bill. The vote, which will be taken on a cross-community basis, cannot be held until at least one day has passed. Therefore, the vote will be the first item of business tomorrow morning.

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

I have been given notice by Mr Weir and Lord Morrow of a motion to extend the sitting past 7.00 pm under Standing Order 10(3A). The question on the motion will be put without debate.

Maurice (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

I beg to move

That, in accordance with Standing Order 10(3A), the sitting on Monday 13 December 2010 be extended to 10.00 pm.

Question put and agreed to.

Resolved:

That, in accordance with Standing Order 10(3A), the sitting on Monday 13 December 2010 be extended to 10.00 pm.

Ministerial Statement

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

I have received notice from the Minister of Enterprise, Trade and Investment that she wishes to make a statement.

Arlene Foster (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

I apologise to the House for being unable to deliver this statement last week due to ill health. With your permission, Mr Speaker, I wish to make a statement in compliance with section 52 of the Northern Ireland Act 1998 regarding a meeting of the North/South Ministerial Council (NSMC) in trade and business develop­ment sectoral format. The meeting was held in the offices of the North/South Ministerial Council in Armagh on Friday 12 November 2010.

I chaired the meeting and represented the Executive in my capacity as Minister of Enterprise, Trade and Investment along with Minister Conor Murphy MP MLA, the Minister for Regional Development. The Irish Government were represented by Mr Batt O’Keeffe TD, the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Innovation. Máire Geoghegan-Quinn, the EU Commissioner for Research, Innovation and Science, also attended the meeting. Danny Kennedy MLA, the Minister for Employment and Learning, attended the meeting for the discussion on innovation. This statement has been agreed with Minister Murphy, and I am making it on behalf of us both.

The main focus of the meeting was a discussion on co-operation on innovation. Following a presentation by InterTradeIreland, Commissioner Geoghegan-Quinn outlined future EU plans on innovation and research. Ministers welcomed the commissioner, thanked her for her attendance at the meeting and said that they looked forward to her continuing support for the innovation agenda.

Ministers welcomed the continued success and development of the US-Ireland research and development partnership and cross-border collaborative projects through the EU FP7 frame­work programme. They noted that seven successful partnerships projects have been created through the US-Ireland research and development partnership, which have a combined value of €15 million. Thirty three successful cross-border collaborative projects have been established through the FP7 programme.

The higher success rate of cross-border collaborative projects was noted, and the Council discussed how to increase collaboration to capitalise on the opportunities provided by the EU framework programme. It was noted that InterTradeIreland will dedicate resources specifically towards increasing collaborative participation and developing an early alert system for potential FP7 proposals, working closely with Invest NI, Ireland’s national support network for FP7, business and academia.

John Fitzgerald, vice-chairperson of InterTradeIreland, and Liam Nellis, InterTradeIreland’s chief executive officer, presented a progress report on InterTradeIreland’s performance and business activities in 2010 to date. They reported that 1,370 companies have accessed InterTradeIreland cross-border business information and advice services and 151 companies have initiated InterTradeIreland trade or innovation projects. InterTradeIreland’s average return on investment across its portfolio of trade and innovation programmes is on target for 2010. Ninety four new jobs have been reported in 2010 by companies participating in InterTradeIreland’s programmes.

The Council agreed to meet again in trade and business development sectoral format in spring 2011. I commend this statement to the House.

Alban Maginness (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast North)

I thank the Minister for her short but succinct report, which contains some interesting news on developments between North and South and throughout the European Union and in the United States. Can any additional work be done through the North/South Ministerial Council on the framework programme that would increase Northern Ireland’s uptake of the substantial funding that is available, particularly for research and development?

Arlene Foster (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

I thought that it was an excellent meeting with Máire Geoghegan-Quinn. She engaged with all the Ministers present and had a very down-to-earth attitude to applying for more money for innovation. For our part, we pointed out that we felt that there were barriers for small businesses in accessing the money that is available through FP7. Commissioner Geoghegan-Quinn acknow­ledged that as an issue and said that it had come up across the European Union. I think that it is more of an issue for Northern Ireland than it is, perhaps, in other areas. We had a very good discussion with the commissioner, which was followed by a visit to the Northern Ireland Science Park and to Bombardier Shorts, to let her see the innovation that is going on in one of our biggest and best companies.

We should not underestimate the capacity for Europe to help us in this area. Huge amounts of European money are available to us, but the difficulty is, as the Chairperson rightly says, in gaining access to it. As I said in my statement, Invest Northern Ireland and its counterparts in the Republic of Ireland will be working very closely with business and, most importantly, with academia. Academia seems to be best able to pull down resources from Europe.

That being the case, we want to learn from them. We are obviously at a disadvantage in so far as there are only two universities in Northern Ireland compared with many more in other regions of the UK. However, as I have always said, that smallness should allow us the flexibility to work proactively with those universities. That is the key to our moving forward.

Paul Frew (DUP, North Antrim)

In my experience and from what I have been told, Northern Ireland companies are being penalised by the protectionist policies that have been adopted by the Republic of Ireland. What is InterTradeIreland doing to stop the Republic of Ireland campaign against Northern Ireland businesses?

Arlene Foster (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

Those protectionist policies against our food are hugely disappointing, and I know that the Minister of Agriculture and Rural Development shares that view. A differentiation has been made between Northern Ireland food and Republic of Ireland food. That campaign has been led by the Irish Farmers’ Association, ably assisted by the ‘Irish Farmers Journal’, and is very foolish for a number of reasons. The Republic of Ireland says that it wants to increase the number of exports into the United Kingdom, particularly into GB, yet it has put up barriers to the sale of Northern Ireland food in the Republic of Ireland. I cannot understand why that government-backed scheme is gaining that sort of primacy because, if the shoe is on the other foot and the UK decides to do the same in the United Kingdom, the Republic of Ireland will not benefit.

Some of our processors, such as Vion in Cookstown, process many pigs from the Republic of Ireland. If we took the attitude not to allow any Republic of Ireland pork to come to that factory in Cookstown, it would have a really big impact on food processing in the Republic of Ireland. I call on that Government and on all those who support the campaign to think again. If they do not think again, I will have to look at what I can do through my position to help processors in Northern Ireland. I will not stand by and allow the Republic of Ireland to get an unfair advantage over our world-class goods. I will not allow that to stand.

Jennifer McCann (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. The Minister spoke earlier about the opportunities to access European funding for innovation, research and development, and she also mentioned barriers. In light of that, does she feel that the absence of an all-island policy on energy is creating a barrier to drawing down money from Europe and thwarting opportunities to develop the renewable energy sector and to grow the economy, particularly through wind and wave power?

Arlene Foster (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

No; I do not agree. In Northern Ireland, we will have our own energy policies. We will work in co-operation with the Republic of Ireland when it benefits the citizens of Northern Ireland and only when it benefits the citizens of Northern Ireland.

Leslie Cree (UUP, North Down)

I thank the Minister for her statement. Indeed, the Northern Ireland Assembly and Business Trust visited Brussels a couple of weeks ago with 24 businessmen to discuss the same theme. Therefore, the statement is particularly helpful. The Minister referred to the US-Ireland R&D partnership and the seven successful projects. What is the flavour of those projects?

Arlene Foster (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

The US-Ireland research and development partnership is an alliance of academic and research institutes in the United States, Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland. Its aim is to promote collaborative and innovative projects among researchers across the three jurisdictions. We have focused on four areas, namely, healthcare; economic development in priority areas such as diabetes and cystic fibrosis; nanotechnology; and sensor technologies.

Stephen Farry (Alliance, North Down)

I thank the Minister for her statement. I note that the meeting occurred before the worst of the financial crisis struck the Republic of Ireland. In light of the challenging financial and economic situation in both parts of the island of Ireland, does the Minister see circumstances in which another meeting may take place before April next year, particularly to see whether there are opportunities to co-ordinate how money is best spent in both Budgets and to see whether there are ways of mitigating the adverse effect on cross-border purchases of the withdrawal of spending power?

Arlene Foster (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

I thank the Member for his question. The next meeting is scheduled to be in spring of 2011, so it may well take place before then. Not to put too fine a point on it, our focus has been on how we can gain the maximum amount of money to help us to get through the difficulties that we face. I am sure that that is the same for the Republic of Ireland Government. We believe that we can leverage in money from Europe that will help us in Northern Ireland to move forward in innovation. The Member may be aware that, recently, I announced the figures for spend last year on innovation and R&D in Northern Ireland. From memory, we are up by around 40%, which is a significant increase. I make no apology for that, because that is where the future lies for this economy, and, if we can use that money to try to get in more European funding, it will make a difference to the Northern Ireland economy.

Paul Givan (DUP, Lagan Valley)

I am sure that the Minister will agree that Northern Ireland has a rich heritage of innovation, not least in my constituency, which is the home place of the late Harry Ferguson. Innovation is a core area into which we need to put our energies to take us out of the economic downturn. Can she assure the House that the accessing of those funds will be a priority for her Department?

Arlene Foster (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

Absolutely, and I hope that the Member will acknowledge from my statement and my answers, particularly the previous answer on innovation, that I put a lot of my Department’s emphasis on that. Last Thursday night, I was privileged to attend an event with the Propel candidates, who are people who have entered and worked with Invest Northern Ireland on innovative ideas. I met 18 or so companies that have been through that programme and which are already exporting, some of them globally and some to the home countries. That is tremendous, and that is only from last year to this year. Innovation and research and development are key elements of the Northern Ireland economy as we move forward, and, therefore, I will continue to give them primacy.

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. Given the unprecedented cuts that have been introduced recently by the Dublin Government and, indeed, the IMF’s introduction to the Dublin economy, has the Minister had an opportunity to assess the impact of both of those factors on cross-border trade and investment?

Arlene Foster (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

As the Member probably knows, I indicated to the House that I was very concerned about the state of the Republic of Ireland’s economy, given that a wide number of our smaller businesses export for the first time to the Republic of Ireland. Therefore, there are difficulties ahead for some of those small companies, and that is one of the reasons why cash flow is a key issue for a lot of them and one of the reasons why I talk continually about access to finance.

If people are in difficulties with their export market in the Republic of Ireland, they need understanding from their financiers. Indeed, I asked the North/South Ministerial Council to look at that issue in its business monitor. It reported back recently, and it makes for some interesting reading. The fact that 88% of the Northern Ireland businesses surveyed have not even applied for a loan or overdraft because they know what the answer will be indicates that there is very low confidence in dealing with banks and other financiers. That continues to be an issue, and we must encourage the banks — as the Member knows, we do not have any control over them — to help us to lift up the economy.

Alastair Ross (DUP, East Antrim)

I will follow on from Mr O’Dowd’s question. We know the difficulties that businesses in the Irish Republic and in Northern Ireland are having in gaining access to finance. Is the Minister aware of any specific work that InterTradeIreland has done in helping small and medium-sized enterprises in particular to gain access to finance?

Arlene Foster (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

As I said, the recent business monitor survey shows clearly that there is a big difference in attitudes and confidence between large businesses and small and medium-sized businesses, which are, of course, the key element of the economy in Northern Ireland.

The key statistics are that 88% of Northern Ireland businesses do not even apply for a loan or overdraft, and, of the businesses that have applied, only 62% have been successful. However, we must bear in mind that 88% of people surveyed did not apply at all. Therefore, it is 62% of 12%, if you know what I mean, Mr Speaker.

There is a real issue around access to finance. I am pleased that the NSMC carried out this work, which we now need to build on. As I understand it, the UK Government are looking at the issue from a European-wide perspective, and we will see the outworking of that.

Alasdair McDonnell (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast South)

I thank the Minister for her statement and for her answers so far. However, I want to double back to framework programme 7 and the European Commissioner. To my knowledge, this is the single biggest opportunity for business here in these difficult times. However, a number of questions are running through my head. How do we mobilise Northern business to access European funds? How do we remove the barriers that are there? Could Invest Northern Ireland better steer local companies towards those funds? Dare I ask the Minister whether she would be prepared to lead a team of Ulster business organisations and the universities to Brussels to tap into those funds?

Arlene Foster (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

I thank the Member for his questions. One key element is that the Commissioner has given her assurance that she will work with the teams in Northern Ireland and in the Republic of Ireland. As well as that, I have recognised the importance of European funding. It is something that I often mention at the Executive, and I am delighted to see that our new office was opened last week by the First Minister and deputy First Minister.

We need to be in Europe at the start of policy formulations to make sure that we can then benefit from them. We have now appointed an R&D liaison service in Brussels, which is staffed by Farha Brahmi — I hope that I have got her name right — who has been making connections with the Commission and who has joined the European Regions Research and Innovation Network.

We have learned much from our time and experience in the aerospace sector and with Bombardier. One reason that the Commissioner visited Bombardier was the success that it has had in accessing funding. We want to see other sectors across Northern Ireland obtain that same level of traction.

I want to ensure that we get the maximum out of FP7, as the Member was absolutely right to say. However, I hope that the Member agrees that it is important that we are in at the start of the formulation of FP8 to make sure that we know what is coming down the line and that it is something that we can work with. I very much hope that small businesses will be to the fore of that discussion moving forward.

Pól Callaghan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

I wish to pick up on Ms McCann’s earlier question. This is a very welcome example of North and South working together in partner­ship with the European Commission on matters of mutual interest. There is clearly a lot of concern in the business community about energy security of supply. Can the Minister tell us whether she would consider discussing energy security of supply at NSMC level and European level? If not, what is her plan if Russia shuts off the valve on business energy this winter?

Arlene Foster (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

I am sure that the Member is aware that one key reason behind the strategic energy framework relates to security of supply. Security of supply is one reason that we have set our renewable target so high moving forward — at 40% — and is something that I discuss on an ongoing basis with Eamon Ryan, my counterpart in the Republic of Ireland. I do not see any need to discuss it at a North/South Ministerial Council meeting on trade and business. However, I do see a need to discuss it with my counterpart in the Republic of Ireland, because it has an impact on the citizens of Northern Ireland. Therefore, I will continue to have those discussions.

The Member should be aware that this is not just about co-operation between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland. It is about co-operation across, as I think it is called, the north-west region of Europe.

So, we are talking about the interconnectivity with GB and the connectivity between France and GB and France and the Republic of Ireland. It is about a regional marketplace, and we must participate in it if we are to get the competitiveness and the economies of scale that we need to get prices down, because, although the Member asked about security of supply, price is another key issue. That is the way forward, and it is one of the reasons why I welcome the ongoing work in the energy work stream of the British-Irish Council.

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

That ends questions on the ministerial statement. I ask the House to take its ease for a few moments while we prepare for the next item of business.

(Mr Deputy Speaker [Mr Dallat] in the Chair)

Executive Committee Business

John Dallat (Social Democratic and Labour Party, East Londonderry)

I call the Minister of Enterprise, Trade and Investment, Mrs Arlene Foster, to move the Consideration Stage of the Energy Bill.

Moved. — [The Minister of Enterprise, Trade and Investment (Mrs Foster).]

John Dallat (Social Democratic and Labour Party, East Londonderry)

Members will have a copy of the Marshalled List of amendments detailing the order for consideration. The amendments have been grouped for debate in my provisional grouping of amendments selected list. There are two groups of amendments, and we will debate the amendments in each group in turn. The first debate will be on amendment Nos 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5, which deal with the damage of gas equipment used for conveying, storing or supplying gas. The second debate will be on amendment Nos 6 and 7, which deal with minor changes to terms in the Bill. Once the debate on each group is completed, any further amendments in the group will be moved formally as we go through the Bill, and the Question on each will be put without further debate. The Questions on stand part will be taken at the appropriate points in the Bill. If that is clear, we shall proceed.

No amendments have been tabled to clauses 1 to 9. I propose, by leave of the Assembly, to group these clauses for the Question on stand part.

Clauses 1 to 9 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 10 (Damage to gas plant)

John Dallat (Social Democratic and Labour Party, East Londonderry)

We now come to the first group of amendments for debate, which deal with the damage of gas equipment used for conveying, storing or supplying gas. With amendment No 1, it will be convenient to debate amendment Nos 2, 3, 4 and 5. Amendment Nos 1 and 2 are mutually exclusive. Therefore, if amendment No 1 is agreed to, I will not call amendment No 2.

Alban Maginness (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast North)

I beg to move amendment No 1: In page 6, line 40, leave out “or by culpable negligence”.

The following amendments stood on the Marshalled List:

No 2: In page 6, line 40, leave out “by culpable negligence” and insert “recklessly”. — [The Minister of Enterprise, Trade and Investment (Mrs Foster).]

No 3: In page 6, line 41, after “conveyor” insert

“(b) alters the index to any meter used for measuring the quantity of gas conveyed or supplied by a gas conveyor or gas supplier; or

(c) prevents any such meter from duly registering the quantity of gas conveyed or supplied,”. — [The Minister of Enterprise, Trade and Investment (Mrs Foster).]

No 4: In page 7, line 3, leave out “subsection (1)” and insert “subsection (1)(a)”. — [The Minister of Enterprise, Trade and Investment (Mrs Foster).]

No 5: In page 7, line 14, leave out “or disposal” and insert “, disposal or repair”. — [The Minister of Enterprise, Trade and Investment (Mrs Foster).]

I welcome the Minister back and wish her well. It is good to see that she has recovered from her brief illness. In speaking on amendment No 1, I will also note the Committee’s scrutiny of amendment Nos 2 to 5 on the Marshalled List.

Amendment No 1 arose as a result of Committee members’ concerns that the definition of the term “culpable negligence” may be too broad to be included in the Bill. It was thought that the term might imply that a person could be found guilty of an offence if they did not take action to stop another person damaging their gas meter and would, therefore, be considered negligent as a result of another person’s action. I remind the House that clause 10 establishes a criminal offence in respect of persons who intentionally or negligently damage gas equipment. It is, therefore, of a serious nature.

On a number of occasions, both in writing and during oral evidence sessions, the Committee asked the Department to provide a clear definition of the term. However, neither the Department nor the Office of the Legislative Counsel was able to do so to the full satisfaction of the Committee. The Department informed the Committee that the Office of the Legislative Counsel had advised it that there is no precise legal definition and:

“‘culpable negligence’ denotes a high degree of negligence which merits criminal sanctions”.

Department officials were unable to provide the Committee with additional clarification of how the term would be applied in practice. In the absence of that clarity, members felt that it would be preferable to remove it from the Bill. A vote was taken on that, and I have to point out that the Committee’s decision was majority rather than unanimous.

On 9 December the Committee considered a letter from the Minister, dated 7 December, in which the Minister informed us that she could not accept the Committee’s amendment and outlined her reasons. The Minister also stated that she had accepted an alternative suggestion from the Attorney General to remove the term “or by culpable negligence” and replace it with the term “or recklessly”. Amendment No 2 on the Marshalled List gives effect to that suggestion of the Attorney General. Unfortunately, the Committee was informed of the amendment only last week, after the conclusion of Committee Stage. As the amendment was tabled only at last week’s meeting, the Committee did not have time to consider it fully and was able only to note the amendment.

Am I permitted to continue, Mr Deputy Speaker?

John Dallat (Social Democratic and Labour Party, East Londonderry)

Yes.

Alban Maginness (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast North)

In response to a Committee suggestion that clause 14 refer explicitly to meter tampering, the Department re-examined clause 10 to ensure that the provision for damage to gas plant fully encompassed meter tampering. The Department concluded that it would be desirable to amend clause 10(1) to refer specifically to tampering with gas meters in order to avoid any doubt about whether tampering with a meter necessarily amounts to damaging it. Amendment Nos 3 and 4 give effect to that, and the Committee supports both.

Amendment No 5 also arises as a result of a suggestion that the Committee made to the Department. Having consulted the natural gas industry on the amendment, the Department informed the Committee that the industry would be content with the revised wording. It accepts that, in certain circumstances, it would be feasible for meters to be repaired rather than disposed of or destroyed. The Committee also supports amendment No 5.

In conclusion, I thank the Minister and her officials for their hard work and expertise during the Committee’s scrutiny of the Bill. I also thank the Minister for adopting most of the Committee’s recommendations, save for the one that I mentioned at the beginning of my address.

Paul Givan (DUP, Lagan Valley)

I also thank the Committee staff for assisting us in scrutinising the legislation and the departmental officials who frequently attended meetings to try to address some of the concerns that were raised.

I support the amendments in the name of our Minister. I want to speak specifically about the amendment tabled by the Chairperson of the Committee and Ms Jennifer McCann. The Chairperson said that the proposed amendment on culpable negligence, which was discussed at length, was subject to a split vote in Committee. There was a good discussion, and we got into the meaning of “culpable negligence”. I do not profess to be an expert on legal matters. The Chairperson tried to assist us in his other professional capacity to define the term. As a layperson, I was keen to know what exactly it means to be culpably negligent when it comes to tampering with gas meters.

The departmental officials were helpful in clarifying the term. It was made clear that the legislation applies to people who specifically and directly try to alter and potentially damage gas meters. The Minister came back with a revision from the Attorney General’s office to replace the term “by culpable negligence” with “recklessly”. That was to try to facilitate the members of the Committee who raised concerns about the term and to address the fears expressed by some members that innocent people could get caught out by the phrase “culpable negligence”.

Obviously, nobody wants to catch out people who are innocent or unaware of the consequences of their actions. However, the legislation is specifically aimed at individuals who go out of their way to tamper with gas meters. Such behaviour defrauds gas companies and, more seriously, puts at risk not only the safety of offenders but, as my colleague Leslie Cree pointed out in Committee, that of their entire street. Tampering with a gas meter could have collateral damage because it affects more than the individual responsible. Tampering with electricity units or water supplies, which are criminal acts, will harm the individual responsible. However, tampering with gas meters has the potential to harm many more than the individual who should not be engaging in that activity. The safety of others, not just the position of the perpetrator, must be at the fore of the argument. Obviously, meter tampering is a concern for the companies involved, and we do not want them to lose financially. However, the safety aspect causes me great concern.

When the Committee considered the phrase “culpable negligence”, we looked at comparable legislation for the water and electricity sectors. Interestingly, the measure in the water legislation is much weaker than our Minister’s proposal; it refers to mere negligent damage being a criminal act. Therefore, the term “culpable negligence” goes far beyond existing water legislation. The Electricity (Northern Ireland) Order 1992 refers to the same type of provision as is being put forward in this clause.

I find it interesting but confusing that some Committee members feel that it should not be a criminal act to interfere with gas installations but, when it comes to water or electricity, it is fine for people engaged in similar activities to be penalised.

We need to be careful with the amendment tabled by Ms McCann, because it sends out the poor and bad message to individuals that it is OK to interfere and tamper with gas installations and to put at risk not just yourself but other people. That is exactly the message that that amendment sends out, when we should be putting out the clear message that that is a criminal and dangerous act and, if you engage in such activity, you will be pursued by the full rigour of the law. The original “culpable negligence” wording in the legislation sufficed. Indeed, some may say that we should have used the language in the water legislation and said that it was merely negligible activity. However, the Minister did not do that and took on board comments that were put forward.

The Minister then sought to clarify the matter further for those who were concerned and proposed the amendment with the word “recklessly”. So, I will vote against amendment No 1, tabled by Ms McCann, and in favour of amendment No 2, which inserts “recklessly”. I appeal to other Members to reflect on the message that would go out if Ms McCann’s amendment were successful and to join us in supporting the Minister and putting through amendment No 2.

Jennifer McCann (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. First of all, I want to clarify the fact that amendment No 1 was made by the Committee.

The Committee debated this matter because clause 10 states:

“A person who intentionally … damages or allows to be damaged any gas plant provided by a gas conveyor shall be guilty of an offence and liable”.

Therefore, the clause is very clear: the person must intentionally do it. That is sufficient, without “culpable negligence” or “recklessly”. That is because no definition of “culpable negligence” was given and nor does “recklessly” provide a definition. “Intentionally” says clearly that a person is committing an offence when they do that.

No one wants to put anyone’s safety at risk. No one is condoning tampering with or damaging a gas meter. The issue is that someone could be innocently convicted of a criminal offence through no fault of their own. The difference between gas meters and, for instance, electricity meters, particularly in social housing, is that gas meters are outside the building. A person cannot be held responsible for knowing what is happening to their gas meter 24 hours a day if it is outside their home.

A person who intentionally tampers with or damages a meter is already covered by the legislation. To go beyond that and include “culpable negligence” or “recklessly” will put at risk people who are innocent, and we have to protect innocent people. Having “intentionally” in the legislation is sufficient, and that is why I argued that point in Committee.

Leslie Cree (UUP, North Down)

I will vote against amendment No 1. As Members said, the Committee discussed this issue at some length. At its November meeting, which was a light meeting, the Committee made the decision to which we have already referred. I was not present at that meeting, and I certainly do not support that amendment.

As someone who has considerable experience in the gas industry, I know that we need such a clause. It represents a common-sense approach and would create a criminal offence, albeit that the person who is in the house need not be the person who intentionally or negligently damages the gas equipment. That aligns with a similar provision in the electricity legislation. To do less in the case of gas would be very foolish and short-sighted.

We need maximum protection for people who use gas, which is an excellent fuel. It is a super servant but a very bad master, and there can be catastrophic results if people are allowed to tamper with equipment, particularly high pressure distribution systems. I could write a book on the number of examples that I have seen over the years in different parts of the country and abroad where people have got up to mischief. Therefore, that needs to be included in the Bill. I support the Minister and will vote against amendment No 1.

Stephen Farry (Alliance, North Down)

I am at a slight disadvantage because I am substituting at the last minute for Sean Neeson, who, regrettably, is unwell and unable to join us. Therefore, I am listening with great interest to the unfolding debate. On behalf of my party, I pay tribute to the Department and the Committee for progressing the Bill to this stage.

I am wary about the Assembly sending out a negative message of rowing back in respect of health and safety and people’s responsibilities. Regardless of what we do, some very regrettable incidents have occurred over the past year. That point is doubly valid. I am also conscious that I speak as a layperson in this matter and that the Chairperson of the Committee and the Minister are both legally trained and probably have a lot more knowledge in these matters. However, from my limited knowledge base, I am comfortable with the language as originally drafted in the legislation.

I appreciate that there has not been a proper definition of culpable negligence, but surely that is an issue for the courts to work out as case law evolves and is taken forward on the basis of the legislation. Sometimes, measures have to be drafted in a manner that simply allows a door to be opened to the issues. Obviously, we cannot legislate for every circumstance or define every circumstance where an issue of negligence may be relevant. Therefore, it is important that, under our legal systems in these islands, we allow the courts, through case law, to work out precisely what is meant and to adapt the law to fit whatever circumstances arise.

It is also important that we distinguish between sins of commission and sins of omission, if I can frame it in those terms. If we follow amendment No 1, we will simply be talking about the ability to act when there is an active sin of commission whereby someone actively does something. However, there are many other walks of life where we legislate against sins of omission, where someone, through their actions or, more relevantly, through their lack of action, contributes to the emergence of a serious situation. Again, we have to stress that that does not open the door to all comers. The bar for that type of action not just under this legislation but in other walks of life is extremely high. Essentially, it is a matter of what is a reasonable test in respect of the actions that someone should take, maybe taking on board Jennifer McCann’s point about how things work in social housing or apartments. I do not think that that would cross the definition of reasonableness in respect of what someone should or should not have done. However, there may well be other situations where someone has been reckless in the approach that has been taken, and, although they may not actively have done something, through inaction they may have contributed to a serious situation.

For that reason, my party and I are certainly happy to support amendment No 2. If it has the Attorney General’s backing, who are we to question his learned opinion on such matters? That probably provides sufficient cover for the Assembly’s purposes. I would have been happy to stick with the original language. I appreciate that matters are never defined absolutely in legislation, because one cannot legislate for every circumstance that arises. The principles and framework must be in place to deal with circumstances and to allow the courts to take action as and when cases actually come forward — if, indeed, they do. We hope that that will not be the case. My party is happy to back amendment No 2 and the rest of the amendments, but we oppose amendment No 1.

Paul Frew (DUP, North Antrim)

I, too, commend the Committee staff for their thorough work during the scrutiny of the Bill and the departmental officials who came to see us on quite a few occasions to discuss issues that we raised. I also thank the Minister for her input during Committee Stage.

It has been mentioned in the debate that the phrase “culpable negligence” is not clearly defined. The Department liaised with the Office of the Legislative Counsel on this, and it advised that culpable negligence denotes a high degree of negligence which merits criminal sanctions and is more commonly referred to as “gross negligence”. The phrase “culpable negligence” was drafted to reflect equivalent provisions in the Electricity (Northern Ireland) Order 1992. It also keeps the Bill consistent with similar legislation. It must be remembered that the gas and electricity sectors are similar. In fact, it could be argued that, in the wrong hands, gas can be much more dangerous. Indeed, if something were to go wrong, an entire street or building could be affected, with much more severe consequences in loss of life and damage to property.

Of course, “culpable negligence” denotes a high degree of negligence. It could be construed that the term “recklessly” in amendment No 2 could be used in that regard. That would be ample. I will support amendment No 2 and oppose amendment No 1. Indeed, that matter was raised in Committee. I certainly did not support the Committee’s taking up of that amendment. My colleague Paul Givan and I voted against that. The danger is that to leave those words out of such essential legislation will dilute the Bill. Let us be clear: amendment No 1 does not replace those words; it leaves them out. That sends out a dangerous signal. People might think that they can get off with something merely because they did not tamper with a meter or equipment themselves but, perhaps, paid or instructed someone to do the work for them in order to save money. We live in the real world, and there are people who are prepared to take on that work. That is why the Bill is essential in the first place. I stress that tampering with any gas equipment, particularly meters, is extremely dangerous. Amendment No 2 is satisfactory. It covers Committee members’ concerns in that regard.

We have to remember the water legislation, which, of course, penalises negligent damage to water fittings. In this context, water is not as dangerous as gas, nor does it pose the same risk to life, individuals, streets and communities when it is used wrongly or is in the wrong hands. We have to be very careful.

We also have to make sure that the onus is on the users, who can check their premises and equipment from time to time. It is important that the onus is on them to ensure that the equipment that is used on a day-to-day basis is fit for purpose. It is their lives that we are debating. It is also important that the message that comes from the House is that there is an onus on the user, there are penalties and users risk damaging not only their life and property but the life and property of those who live on their street or in their block.

William Irwin (DUP, Newry and Armagh)

I thank the Minister and the Committee staff for their hard work on the Bill. I welcome the Bill and, of course, the necessary provision contained therein to bring our legislation up to date with our neighbours in the rest of the United Kingdom. Provisions such as enhanced powers of access for gas companies are vital, given the nature of the fuel and, in particular, recent incidents involving gas-related appliances and supply networks. I also welcome the inclusion of increased safeguards for customers, such as providing evidence of authority and notice of the need to enter premises. Customers are entitled to such safeguards.

Amendment No 2 would replace “by culpable negligence” in clause 10(1) with “recklessly”. That is an important alteration, and it was the topic of much discussion by the Committee in recent times. Inserting the word “recklessly” leaves no doubt as to the seriousness of the offence of damage to gas equipment. To remove completely the “culpable negligence” description — gross negligence, as it has been described — without an adequate but simplified replacement would be straying too far from similar legislation, for instance, electricity supply legislation. That would present problems for other industries, such as water and electric, and that would be unhelpful.

In light of the obvious issues with gas equipment, there must be an onus on consumers to act quickly, because ignoring obvious damage could endanger people’s safety along a supply route or result in difficulties with the metering of supply. That is why the inclusion of the word “recklessly” is important. It must be included. Therefore, I support amendment No 2.

Gerry McHugh (Independent, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. I want to comment on the amendments. As others have done, I thank the Minister and the Committee staff for the work that they have done on the Bill, which is no simple matter. It is important to stress that we must not simply rubber-stamp everything that comes in here, including parity legislation from the British side or anywhere else, and merely float it on through as we have done with EU legislation in many instances. In many instances, we do not have a choice about EU legislation, but it does not always do justice to those at whom it is aimed or hit those whom it is intended to keep under some sort of check or control. In fact, it can often hit those who are least able to handle it.

If someone is allowed to enter a house at will, it will throw up the possibilities that we have seen before. The same people — those who are less able to pay — will be targeted by the legislation. Such legislation is not usually aimed at the well-off and those who are well able to pay. There is often a broad-brush method of challenging, attacking or aiming at those who have least ability to pay.

I often have difficulties with what is said in such legislation. If the Department wants to aim it at a specific point, it should be done. However, the term “culpable negligence” and the way in which it is set is quite broad; it could target anyone. Often, innocent people, even pensioners, will find themselves with a mark of criminality brought to bear on their person.

We have to look at the legislation in that light. I would not be happy to do that, and I support Jennifer McCann’s contention that it should be removed. I do not know what should be put in place of it. Including the word “recklessly” runs us into a different area entirely, but it is up to the Assembly what it wants to do in relation to that.

There is like-minded legislation in the other two energy areas. Perhaps gas is a bit different in that there is greater risk to many more people if something is tampered with, but how many instances of that have taken place? Is it that widespread that we have to include in legislation terms such as “culpable negligence” to be applied to pensioners or whoever might be caught tampering with those devices? I do not know, but maybe the Minister can throw some light on that. We do not want to support interference with any of that equipment, but neither do we want to send out a message that we are prepared to allow that interference to go on.

Paul Givan (DUP, Lagan Valley)

I appreciate the point that the Member is now trying to make about not giving out a message that you should interfere. Can he clarify his earlier comments if he is now saying that if a person cannot afford to pay for gas or any other utility, it would still be wrong to interfere? Earlier, he seemed to suggest that he felt it was almost justification, and if a person could not afford it, it was OK to interfere. Is he now saying that that is wrong?

Gerry McHugh (Independent, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

I am not prepared to say that I was wrong in making a defence of those who are not able to pay. The fact is that there is a broad-brush attack on those in that category, because the well off will never have to face that situation. Quite a lot of them do not actually pay their bills, but it is more unlikely that it was aimed for that purpose. I have no difficulty in defending my position on that. We are not sending out a message that those who are not willing to pay should be allowed to get away with that. That is not the message that I am talking about. The message about tampering with equipment is much more severe and serious and we do not support that, but, at the same time, it is important for people in the Assembly and in Committees not just to rubber-stamp things. I think that the courts will deal with any of those instances as they come up, and they have until now. There has been no difficulty with that. I stand by the removal of “culpable negligence”.

Arlene Foster (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

I thank members of the Committee in particular for their helpful scrutiny of the Bill and other Assembly Members for their comments during the debate, particularly in relation to clause 10. Clause 10 will establish a criminal offence for people who intelligently — intentionally, not intelligently; no one would do it intelligently — or by culpable negligence damage, or allow to be damaged, gas equipment. The provisions are largely aimed at tackling that issue of meter tampering.

The last Member who spoke asked me whether I had any figures in relation to meter tampering. From 2006 to 2008, there were approximately 1,033 cases of suspected meter tampering, and in 2009 alone, there were 733. It is a huge issue, and we must send out a very strong message from the House today. It would be very regrettable if we did otherwise.

The Committee for Enterprise, Trade and Investment has expressed some reservations in relation to the use of the phrase “culpable negligence”. In amendment No 1, the Committee suggests that the term “or by culpable negligence” should be removed in its entirety from clause 10(1) and that the redrafted clause should just read:

“A person who intentionally damages or allows to be damaged any gas plant”.

I oppose that amendment on the following grounds. The clause was drafted to reflect equivalent provisions in paragraph 6(1) in schedule 6 to the Electricity (Northern Ireland) Order 1992. It is important that we have consistency on this. If someone tampers with electricity, he may well kill himself, but if someone tampers with gas, he could blow up a whole street. People need to reflect carefully on that. It is not OK for people to tamper with gas equipment because they cannot afford to pay. That is not the situation. I am Minister with responsibility for health and safety as well, and the health and safety aspect is key to this legislation. Members need to reflect on that.

The Committee’s suggested amendment would limit the criminal offence to intentional damage to gas equipment and would mean that gas legislation would be out of line with, and weaker than, electricity legislation, despite the risks to individuals and the wider community from tampering with gas plant. Interfering with gas plant carries more potential danger than interfering with the other utilities, electricity and water. The legislation on water has the highest penalties for tampering, though it is the least dangerous of all the utilities. There is a contradiction there.

I have at all times tried to work with the Committee and we have agreed all the other amendments. I take issue with Mr McHugh’s remark about rubber-stamping. That is not the job of the Assembly and we have never sought to do that. I am determined to have some consistency and to put the needs of the community first in relation to this matter. I sought advice from the Attorney General. He tabled an alternative amendment, which I put forward in my name. Amendment No 2 suggests replacing the term “by culpable negligence”. I want to put on the record that I am perfectly happy with that wording, and I agree with Mr Farry that it is right to maintain consistency with electricity legislation. However, in the spirit of trying to find a solution to this matter, we put forward the term “recklessly” as a substitution. That does not constitute —

Jennifer McCann (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

Will the Minister give way?

Arlene Foster (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

I am about to explain what “recklessly” means, but I am happy to give way.

Jennifer McCann (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

Does the Minister agree that most gas plant is situated outside people’s homes? It is not inside their homes, as most electricity meters are. Can she give a clear definition of “recklessly”? What if a householder leaves their back gate open, allowing someone to come in to damage the gas plant? No one here underestimates the safety aspect. The word “intentionally” covers it. There is no need to use the word “recklessly”. In the areas that I represent, gas meters are situated in back gardens.

Arlene Foster (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

Of course the word “recklessly” does not cover that sort of situation. Does the Member seriously expect that a judge sitting in court will accept that as a reckless act? Of course he would not. This does not constitute a policy change. Rather, it is a clarification of the terminology that helps to explain the level of misbehaviour required to merit criminal sanction. For example, it is unlikely that vandalism by a third party to a gas meter in a public area, such as a hall in a block of flats, will result in the unfair prosecution of the owner of the gas meter, unless he or she had committed a reckless act that was seen as contributing to that vandalism.

I want to explain what “recklessly” means. I ask the Assembly to agree that this is a more suitable way of addressing the very serious issue of damage to gas plant and meter tampering. I ask Members to support amendment No 2, my Department’s amendment, and to reject amendment No 1. We have already heard about the differences between water, electricity and gas. I listened carefully to what the Committee told me, which was that there is no legal definition of “by culpable negligence”, whereas the definition of recklessness, as the Chairperson will know from many legal cases and criminal and common law, is a term of art used in the law. Essentially, “recklessly” means intentionally or by being so careless that it is obvious to the objective bystander that those actions would lead to damage. Therefore, “recklessly” is a high degree of intent, or not caring, so that it is obvious to everyone else that damage will happen to the gas plant.

I submit that the Committee’s concern about having no definition of “culpable negligence” has been dealt with by my suggesting the insertion of the term “recklessness”. I am interested to hear what the Chairperson of the Committee has to say about that matter.

I will move on to amendment Nos 3 and 4. During the Committee’s scrutiny, it was noted that meter tampering is not specifically mentioned in clause 10, which deals with damage to gas plant in general. My Department was asked to consider whether meter tampering was sufficiently covered by the present wording, and, after receiving legal advice, I agreed that, for the purposes of clarity and to ensure that meter tampering is fully covered as intended, it was desirable to amend clause 10(1). I, therefore, propose to insert a specific reference to meter tampering in line with existing provisions on meter tampering under the Electricity (Northern Ireland) Order 1992, the Gas Act 1986 and the Electricity Act 1989 in GB.

I propose that clause 10(1) of the Bill be amended to read:

“10. — (1) A person who intentionally or recklessly

damages or allows to be damaged any gas plant provided by a gas conveyor;

alters the index to any meter used for measuring the quantity of gas conveyed or supplied by a gas conveyor or gas supplier; or

prevents any such meter from duly registering the quantity of gas conveyed or supplied

shall be guilty of an offence and liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding level 3 on the standard scale.”

The House may wish to note that level 3 on the standard scale translates to a fine of up to £1,000.

Finally, I turn to amendment No 5 to clause 10. The Committee for Enterprise, Trade and Investment suggested that subsection (4) of clause 10 should be amended to add “or repair” to the existing sentence, which describes how a gas company must handle a gas meter that has been removed as a result of tampering. The provision currently reads:

“(4) A meter removed under subsection (3) shall be kept safely by the gas conveyor until the Authority authorises its destruction or disposal.”

The clause was originally drafted to reflect equivalent provisions in paragraph 6(4) of schedule 6 to the Electricity (Northern Ireland) Order 1992. However, my Department consulted the natural gas industry on the suggested amendment. The industry advised that it would be content with the revised wording and accepted that, in certain circumstances, meters could be repaired instead of disposed of or destroyed. I understand that a gas company will ultimately base its decision on whether to repair or to destroy a gas meter on the cost of repair versus the cost of replacement. I, therefore, propose that clause 10(4) of the Bill be amended to read:

“(4) A meter removed under subsection (3) shall be kept safely by the gas conveyor until the Authority authorises its destruction, disposal or repair.”

That concludes what I have to say about the amendments.

Alban Maginness (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast North)

I am grateful to all colleagues who contributed to the debate. It has been an interesting discussion on the term “culpable negligence” in clause 10. Mr Givan mentioned that that was a split decision by the Committee. I accept that, and I averred to that in my opening remarks. He also emphasised that the Attorney General suggested the alternative term “reckless” or “recklessly”, and that he preferred that amendment to the deletion of “culpable negligence”, which is, effectively, the amendment that the Committee tabled. He emphasised, quite properly, the potential danger posed by any interference or tampering with gas equipment. Indeed, other colleagues emphasised that as well. In fairness to all members of the Committee, it was generally recognised that gas equipment posed a particular danger to individuals and the public at large. That is not lost on any Members involved in the debate, regardless of whether they are for or against the amendment to clause 10.

Ms Jennifer McCann spoke in favour of the amendment. In her opinion, culpable negligence was not properly and clearly legally defined. The thrust of her argument was that the clause, because it creates a criminal offence, required definition. She also emphasised that she did not want to put anybody’s safety at risk. However, she emphasised, importantly, that many gas meters are situated outside people’s homes. As a result of that, such meters are more vulnerable to interference by third parties. She was concerned that adopting the original clause or the alternative put forward by the Attorney General in advice to the Minister — now proposed by the Minister — could put innocent people at risk of a potential criminal prosecution. She was concerned that people, particularly those with meters outside their homes, should be protected.

In fairness, the Minister doubted that, in the circumstances of third party interference, a judge would find a person guilty of such an offence. She said that recklessness or culpable negligence required a high degree of negligence. I presume that it would probably not amount to recklessness or culpable negligence if someone’s gas equipment was tampered with by a third party without the knowledge of the occupant.

Dr Farry also indicated that his party supported the Minister’s position, and he emphasised the risks to the public. He adopted what one might term a theological bent by talking about sins of commission and of omission. He felt, I presume, that someone who omitted to do something could be found guilty of an offence in certain circum­stances. In any event, he felt that the Attorney General’s advice to the Minister and the Committee was preferable to the deletion of the original culpable negligence aspect of the clause.

Mr McHugh made the important point that the Assembly should not rubber-stamp everything that comes before it. Again, in fairness, the Minister accepted that. However, we should reflect on what Mr McHugh said: as an Assembly and as individual Committees, we have a duty to look carefully at all aspects of legislation, and we should try to remedy potential problems when we detect them. In this instance, the Committee has attempted to do that by tabling the amendment to delete “culpable negligence” from clause 10.

A number of Members made the point that there should be consistency across utilities, whether water, electricity or gas. It is important that there are consistent standards, and, therefore, this legislation should be consistent with that for the electricity industry, in particular, so that consistency is maintained across the utilities. That is something that bears consideration.

A further point made by other Members, including Mr Frew, Mr Givan, Mr Farry and the Minister, was that we should not send out a message that may encourage those who seek to benefit from interference with gas equipment. It is important that we consider that issue. However, the Minister made the point strongly that removing “culpable negligence” will weaken that part of the Bill, which would not be good. That view was supported by other Members. The Minister said that she has taken the Committee’s criticism on board. Her view is that the Attorney General’s advice about “or recklessly” should be preferred and that it meets the criticism levelled by the Committee. However, the Committee felt there was not a clear definition of “culpable negligence”. I prefer “recklessly” to “culpable negligence”, but, as Chairperson, I am bound by the decision of the Committee, and I represent its views as strongly as I can. I accept that it is difficult to define all those terms, including “culpable negligence” and “recklessly”. Nonetheless, it is important to take the Committee’s majority view of “culpable negligence” into consideration. I invite the Assembly to consider that seriously as its preferred position.

Question put, That amendment No 1 be made.

John Dallat (Social Democratic and Labour Party, East Londonderry)

Members will resume their seats, please. [Interruption.] Members will resume their seats. [Interruption.] Order, please.

Gregory Campbell (DUP, East Londonderry)

Order.

John Dallat (Social Democratic and Labour Party, East Londonderry)

I wonder whether I should thank Mr Campbell for that little bit of help. Now that all Members have resumed their seats, I will put the Question again.

Question put, That amendment No 1 be made.

The Assembly divided: Ayes 39; Noes 49

AYES

Ms M Anderson, Mr Boylan, Mr D Bradley, Mrs M Bradley, Mr P J Bradley, Mr Brady, Mr Burns, Mr Callaghan, Mr W Clarke, Mr Doherty, Mr Gallagher, Mrs D Kelly, Mr G Kelly, Mr Leonard, Mr A Maginness, Mr A Maskey, Mr P Maskey, Mr F McCann, Ms J McCann, Mr McCartney, Mr McDevitt, Dr McDonnell, Mr McElduff, Mrs McGill, Mr McGlone, Mr McHugh, Mr McKay, Mr Molloy, Mr Murphy, Ms Ní Chuilín, Mr O’Dowd, Mr O’Loan, Mrs O’Neill, Ms Purvis, Mr P Ramsey, Ms S Ramsey, Ms Ritchie, Ms Ruane, Mr Sheehan.

Tellers for the Ayes: Mr Leonard and Mrs McGill.

NOES

Mr S Anderson, Mr Beggs, Mr Bell, Mr Bresland, Lord Browne, Mr Campbell, Mr T Clarke, Mr Cobain, Rev Dr Robert Coulter, Mr Craig, Mr Cree, Mr Easton, Mr Elliott, Sir Reg Empey, Dr Farry, Mrs Foster, Mr Frew, Mr Gardiner, Mr Gibson, Mr Girvan, Mr Givan, Mr Hamilton, Mr Hilditch, Mr Humphrey, Mr Irwin, Ms Lo, Mr Lunn, Mr Lyttle, Mr McCallister, Mr McCarthy, Mr McClarty, Mr B McCrea, Mr I McCrea, Mr McFarland, Mr McGimpsey, Miss McIlveen, Mr McNarry, Mr McQuillan, Lord Morrow, Mr Moutray, Mr G Robinson, Mr K Robinson, Mr Ross, Mr Savage, Mr Spratt, Mr Storey, Mr Weir, Mr Wells, Mr B Wilson.

Tellers for the Noes: Mr Frew and Mr Givan.

Question accordingly negatived.

Amendment No 2 made: In page 6, line 40, leave out “by culpable negligence” and insert “recklessly”. — [The Minister of Enterprise, Trade and Investment (Mrs Foster).]

Amendment No 3 made: In page 6, line 41, after “conveyor” insert

“(b) alters the index to any meter used for measuring the quantity of gas conveyed or supplied by a gas conveyor or gas supplier; or

(c) prevents any such meter from duly registering the quantity of gas conveyed or supplied,”. — [The Minister of Enterprise, Trade and Investment (Mrs Foster).]

Amendment No 4 made: In page 7, line 3, leave out “subsection (1)” and insert “subsection (1)(a)”. — [The Minister of Enterprise, Trade and Investment (Mrs Foster).]

Amendment No 5 made: In page 7, line 14, leave out “or disposal” and insert “, disposal or repair”. — [The Minister of Enterprise, Trade and Investment (Mrs Foster).]

Clause 10, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clauses 11 to 23 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

John Dallat (Social Democratic and Labour Party, East Londonderry)

We now come to the second group of amendments for debate, which deal with minor changes to the terms in the Bill. With amendment No 6, it will be convenient to debate amendment No 7.

Clause 24 (Restrictions on voluntary winding up)

Arlene Foster (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

I beg to move amendment No 6: In page 16, line 8, leave out “leave” and insert “permission”.

The following amendment stood on the Marshalled List:

No 7: In clause 35, page 23, line 40, leave out “Energy” and insert “Utility”. — [The Minister of Enterprise, Trade and Investment (Mrs Foster).]

Arlene Foster (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

During the Committee’s call for evidence, Northern Ireland Electricity suggested a minor amendment to clause 24(4), which covers restrictions on voluntary winding-up by a protected energy company as part of the provisions for a special administration regime. The suggested amendment involves changing the reference to “an application for leave” to “an application for permission”. The Department sought legal advice on that issue and has accepted that the amendment would improve the clarity of the clause. I therefore propose that clause 24(4) should be amended to read:

“(4) If an application for an energy administration order in relation to the company is made to the High Court in accordance with section 19(1) after an application for permission under this section has been made and before it is granted, the Court may exercise its powers under section 20 instead of granting permission.”

Turning to amendment No 7, during the Committee’s call for evidence, the Utility Regulator highlighted a minor error in clause 35(1), which refers to:

“the Northern Ireland Authority for Energy Regulation”.

That is the former name of the Utility Regulator, and I have agreed that, for the purposes of accuracy, that reference should be amended to:

“the Northern Ireland Authority for Utility Regulation”.

That concludes what I have to say about those two amendments.

Alban Maginness (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast North)

Amendment Nos 6 and 7 are, in essence, minor and technical. During the Energy Bill’s Committee Stage, Northern Ireland Electricity advised the Committee for Enterprise, Trade and Investment that the reference to “leave” in clause 24(4) with regard to a voluntary winding-up order should be changed to “permission”, to accord with the wording in the Energy Act 2004. The Committee advised the Department accordingly, and, following advice from the Office of the Legislative Counsel, the Department accepted the Committee’s advice.

During Committee Stage, the Department informed the Committee of a minor drafting amendment to clause 35 to accurately reflect the name of the Northern Ireland Authority for Utility Regulation. That name is contained in the amendment. The Committee supports amendment Nos 6 and 7. I thank the departmental officials and the Committee staff for all their work on this legislation.

Arlene Foster (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

I thank the Chairperson for his comments. The Bill is a good example of the way in which Committees can make legislation better. The amendments in the second group came about as a result of the Committee’s call for evidence. There is a lot of scepticism in the press and among the public about the usefulness of the Assembly and its Committees. This exercise has shown that they are useful when it comes to legislation. I know that we had a disagreement on one clause, but that is a very healthy sign that we are prepared to debate to make laws better.

I am grateful to Members who contributed to the debate on all the amendments. As I outlined, I have accepted that amendment No 6, which changes the phrase “application for leave” to “application for permission”, is appropriate and will not impact on the intended overall aim of the clause. I have also agreed that amendment No 7 will correct the minor inaccuracy in the wording of clause 35.

Question, That amendment No 6 be made, put and agreed to.

Clause 24, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clauses 25 to 34 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 35 (Interpretation)

Amendment No 7 made: In page 23, line 40, leave out “Energy” and insert “Utility”. — [The Minister of Enterprise, Trade and Investment (Mrs Foster).]

Clause 35, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clauses 36 and 37 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Schedule agreed to.

Long title agreed to.

John Dallat (Social Democratic and Labour Party, East Londonderry)

That concludes the Consideration Stage of the Energy Bill. The Bill stands referred to the Speaker.

Committee Business

John Dallat (Social Democratic and Labour Party, East Londonderry)

As with similar motions, the motion on Statutory Committee membership will be treated as a business motion. Therefore, there will be no debate.

Resolved:

That Mr Pat Sheehan replace Mr Raymond McCartney as a member of the Committee for Culture, Arts and Leisure. — [Mr P Maskey.]

John Dallat (Social Democratic and Labour Party, East Londonderry)

As with similar motions, the motion on Standing Committee membership will be treated as a business motion. Therefore, there will be no debate.

Resolved:

That Mr Pat Sheehan replace Mr John O’Dowd as a member of the Assembly and Executive Review Committee. — [Mr P Maskey.]

John Dallat (Social Democratic and Labour Party, East Londonderry)

The Business Committee has agreed to allow up to one hour and 30 minutes for the debate. The proposer will have 15 minutes to propose the motion and 15 minutes to make a winding-up speech. All other Members who are called to speak will have five minutes.

Pat Doherty (Sinn Féin, West Tyrone)

I beg to move

That this Assembly approves the Assembly Commission’s report on the financial support and pensions for Members of the Northern Ireland Assembly (December 2010); and makes the Northern Ireland Assembly (Members’ Expenditure) Determination 2010.

Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. I move the motion on behalf of the Assembly Commission, and, during the debate, I will speak on its behalf. I will start by providing Members with some background information on the genesis of the Assembly Commission report, which makes interim changes and improvements in governance, pending the establishment of the independent financial review panel.

In 2007, prior to the restoration of devolution and the re-establishment of the Commission, the Secretary of State wrote to the chairperson of the Senior Salaries Review Body (SSRB) to seek its agreement to conduct a review of the existing structure for salaries, expenditure and pension benefits payable to members and office holders of the Assembly. In June 2007, the newly appointed Commission engaged with the SSRB to initiate the independent review under agreed terms of reference. The SSRB consulted with Members of the Assembly through a variety of qualitative methods during 2007 and 2008. It employed the Hay Group as consultants to look in detail at the roles of MLAs, Ministers and office holders in the Assembly to assess the respective job weights. The SSRB then completed its report in November 2008, and the Commission initially considered the review recommendations at its meeting on 13 January 2009.

The final report made 25 recommendations on pay, pensions and expenditure for Members of the Assembly. In addition to the recommendations that were outlined by the SSRB, the Commission also considered issues referred to it as identified in the fourth and fifth reports in 2009 from the Committee on Standards and Privileges. The Committee’s relevant recommendations were in relation to the Assembly’s rules governing the use of Members’ financial support in the areas of accommodation and dual mandate. We are keen to ensure that a best-practice approach is applied to our financial systems, and we will continue to monitor the ongoing developments in other places.

All party leaders were then consulted on the report. However, the report was withdrawn in November 2009. In December 2009, it was agreed that further consideration would be required on a range of possible options to progress the recommendations set out in the Commission’s report on pay, pensions and financial support for Members of the Assembly. Additionally, there was a consensus that further meetings with party leaders would be helpful in setting out a way forward. It was agreed to take forward a further report that excluded any reference to pay arrangements for Members and to leave those decisions for an independent financial review panel upon its establishment. At that point, the necessary process was initiated for the establishment of the independent financial review panel. I will focus on that matter in more detail in a moment. The report brought forward options for changes to the resettlement allowance but was withdrawn pending further discussion with parties.

The Assembly Commission has agreed a range of measures to ensure that the Assembly has arrangements in place that effectively and fairly support MLAs in carrying out their duties. To further ensure good governance, transparency and accountability, the Commission also commenced publication of Members’ expenses on a quarterly basis, releasing information back to 2003.

The report that we are debating today has been developed following extensive consideration and consultation. It proposes a total of 17 recommend­ations across three main sections. The key issues are the adoption of the 10 principles, the establishment of an independent financial review panel, and enhanced governance and expenditure issues for Members. I will focus briefly on each section and the main recommendations that are being proposed.

Section 3 of the report relates to the adoption of the 10 principles that were developed in consultation with party leaders. The Commission wholly supports the adoption of the 10 principles to underpin the basis on which expenditure is paid to MLAs. We have proposed a methodology for the application of the principles and provided detail on the approach to dealing with any potential breaches of the rules on the claiming and use of expenses. I am sure that Members will agree that the principles provide a sound basis for underpinning the financial support regime for MLAs and for greater transparency and accountability.

Section 4 of the report relates to the establishment of an independent financial review panel to determine all aspects of financial support for MLAs. During discussions with party leaders, there was a unanimous view that the future determination of salaries, pensions and financial support should be delivered by an independent mechanism. To allow for the establishment of the body, amendment of the Northern Ireland Act 1998 was required. In April 2010, at our request, the Assembly Members Bill was passed at Westminster. The Assembly Members (Independent Financial Review and Standards) Bill was then jointly drafted by the Assembly Commission and the Assembly Committee on Standards and Privileges. The purpose of the Bill is to provide for the establishment of a panel to determine the pay, pensions and other financial support for Members of the Assembly. The Bill also provides for the establishment of the post of an Assembly Commissioner for Standards.

The Assembly Members (Independent Financial Review and Standards) Bill is currently progressing through the House, its Second Stage having been taken on Tuesday 23 November 2010. An Ad Hoc Committee has been established to deal with the Bill. Committee Stage began on 24 November 2010, and the estimated date for Consideration Stage is the week commencing 31 January 2011.

Section 5 of the report proposes a total of 15 recommendations in relation to entitlements and the governance of expenditure incurred by Members. This section covers an array of improvements to our existing services, including revisions to the terminology used in existing regulation, proposed changes to the calculations used to determine a number of our existing allowances, and the enhancement of our governance structures. The Assembly Commission is not recommending any changes to the current arrangements for the pension scheme provided for in the Assembly Members’ Pension Scheme 2008.

The Commission has agreed that it would be appropriate not to take a view on certain recommendations detailed by the Senior Salaries Review Body in relation to dual mandates as the matter falls under the responsibility of the Assembly and Executive Review Committee. However, assuming that some dual mandates may continue until 2015, the Commission has proposed a series of related recommendations regarding claims under office cost expenditure and winding-up expenditure. Additionally, in support of recommendations raised by the Committee on Standards and Privileges, the Commission is also recommending the immediate development of protocols for splitting expenses that are claimed by MLAs who are also MPs or councillors.

In supporting Members in their role as employers, the Commission is recommending the development of a capped bonus scheme for Members’ support staff in defined circumstances in the event that Members choose to pay a bonus to their staff.

The Commission considered the recommendation of the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority in its new expenses scheme for MPs and the restriction that it imposed on new MPs from receiving:

“Staffing Expenditure for the salary of more than one employee who is a connected party.”

It recommended that a similar approach be adopted in the Assembly.

In the interests of accountability and of securing public confidence, the Commission agrees with the recommendations of the SSRB that an independent assessment of MLAs’ constituency offices should be undertaken by chartered surveyors to ensure that rental charges are reasonable for the area in which the office is located. The Commission also recommends that such independent valuations be sought before the renewal of the existing leases and before new lease arrangements or agreements are entered into. In line with the views of Assembly parties and as outlined in the rules that govern the expenses scheme for MPs, the Commission agreed that no expenses should be claimed relating to a Member’s rental of a property where the Member or a connected party is the owner of the property or holds a lease in relation to the property in question. The Commission also recommends that all constituency offices comply with the statutory obligations that are placed on leased premises.

The Commission also proposes changes to the calculations used to determine resettlement, ill health retirement and winding-up allowances, as proposed by the Senior Salaries Review Body. In line with the recommendation outlined by the SSRB, the Commission also proposes that, from the start of the next mandate, the mileage allowance for business travel in excess of 10,000 miles will be paid at 25p, in line with the Income Tax (Earning and Pensions) Act 2003.

If the Assembly accepts the recommendations, it will improve its accountability and transparency to the general public; it will also increase public confidence in the governance of the Assembly. The Commission acknowledges the work of secretariat staff in preparing the report. I am aware that there has been much iteration in recent months, and I also acknowledge the work and support of Commission members in a difficult and ever-changing area.

Peter Weir (DUP, North Down)

At the outset, I declare an interest as a Commission member. As recommendation 8 refers to the Northern Ireland Local Government Association, I also declare an interest as a member of that august body. I suspect that there will not be a vast number of Members who want to speak during the debate, which focuses on terms and conditions and what could be described as peripheral issues. Indeed, the Chamber is not exactly full.

If the issue under debate is not a case of turkeys voting for Christmas, it is certainly turkeys talking about Christmas. The Commission worked hard to strike a balance. On one hand and in one of the recommendations, there is a clear indication that a great number of issues will be rolled into the recommendations of the independent financial review panel. Those issues will rightly be taken out of the hands of Assembly Members and a range of measures will be made binding upon us; I think that everyone in the House will agree with that approach. However, there is a desire to put our own house in order as much as possible and to get things right ahead of that action being taken. Therefore, there is a balance between considering what will be taken out of our hands and what we should not tamper with and trying to make sure that things are put right. The Commission’s recommendations strike that balance.

(Mr Deputy Speaker [Mr Molloy] in the Chair)

I do not intend to go through the detail of the recommendations, as the proposer of the motion did that in some detail. However, I do want to touch on a couple of things.

The House should be able to unite around the 10 principles in recommendation one. Those very good principles can act as guidance for the Assembly. The establishment of an independent financial panel referred to in section 2 has, to some extent, been overtaken by events. Indeed, the related legislation is already in Committee. A lot of the regulations on a range of governance issues are very sensible. In some cases, those will bring us into line with legislation and allowances that are in place elsewhere. The proposer mentioned the regulations on travel expenses, for example, and it is right that those are introduced.

Some people will ask why, if the independent panel will deal with most of the measures, we do not simply leave it all to the independent panel. Why bother doing anything at this stage? The reason, particularly in respect of one aspect, is that a number of the allowances and so on will kick in prior to the establishment of an independent panel. If a fully functioning independent panel could be established tomorrow, we could abandon this. However, a range of things will kick in at the next election, and it is important that we do our best to put our house in order.

There has been considerable discussion about resettlement, which will happen at the time of the next Assembly elections, and we must try to ensure that we get that right. That will happen before the independent panel is fully operational. Therefore, we are not in a position to simply ignore it, principally because of what is sometimes colloquially called the Marietta Farrell case. It could have happened to any individual or party, but that was a case in which someone came in about a month before the Assembly elections. To be fair, the party involved had no choice in the matter because the person whom she replaced had been appointed to a public position. Marietta Farrell then lost her seat and got a substantial pay-off, given the length of time that she served.

If we had simply left things as they were, a genuine accusation could have been levelled at the Assembly that we were simply ignoring the loophole and flaws in the system that allowed someone who had been here for a short time to receive a large pay-off. People who had served a relatively short time got a minimum six-month pay-off, a situation that you would find almost nowhere else, either in private life or the public sector. There was a desire to close that loophole. The proposal is a graduated system under which, instead of the six-month pay-off, anyone who has served —

Francie Molloy (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

I ask the Member to draw his remarks to a close.

Peter Weir (DUP, North Down)

Sorry, I thought that we were debating legislation. That is OK. I misunderstood my timings.

Jim Wells (DUP, South Down)

On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. My understanding is the same as Mr Weir’s. We are debating legislation, and, therefore, speeches are not subject to time limits.

Francie Molloy (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

The proposer has 15 minutes to propose the motion and 15 minutes to make a winding-up speech. All other Members have five minutes in which to speak.

Peter Weir (DUP, North Down)

I support the motion. Members will have to continue wondering what other pertinent remarks I was about to make.

Robert Coulter (UUP, North Antrim)

As a member of the Assembly Commission, I wish to follow on from the last paragraph of the proposer’s speech and highlight the work that has been done on this matter over the years. I have been involved with this topic since 1998. Having gone through so many machinations, discussions and debates, I have the highest regard for the secretariat staff who have worked with the Assembly Commission on this subject. Few people recognise the many hours that staff and the Assembly Commission have put in to bring about a resolution that will be accepted by the Assembly. We, as an Assembly, should pay tribute to our staff for the work that they have put in. In supporting the motion, I also wish to say that it is time we put our own house in order after all these years.

It is true that I keep reminding the Assembly that, when we discussed the matter on the Floor of the House at the very beginning, Members turned down a rise of £10,000 a year. That seems to have been forgotten by the press and others who like to pillory Members over many different issues. When that is added up, the amount of money that Members have forgone over the years must be taken into account. Therefore, it is right that, at this stage, we should bring forward these provisions to have them in place for those who are new and come to the Assembly after the election or even before it, so that they know exactly where they stand, financially and otherwise, with their income. Many people do not take lightly the decision to put themselves forward for election. It is right that the Assembly should bring forward these recommendations so that those who come in know exactly where they stand.

Peter Weir (DUP, North Down)

I did not get the opportunity to make this point. The Member has focused on the position of new Members, but will he confirm that the proposals that are being put forward today will mean that, although some existing Members will lose out — by a considerable amount of money in some cases — no Member will benefit financially? So, in some cases the proposals will be cost-neutral, and in many cases they will lead to a reduced payout for Members. That should also be borne in mind when people look at the wider context of the position that we are placing ourselves in.

Robert Coulter (UUP, North Antrim)

I thank the Member for his intervention. The wisdom of what he has said enhances what I was saying about bringing it to the attention of the public that we are not out to grab everything that is going and we want transparency and equity all the way through.

I support the motion. I am glad that we have brought it to this point, and I trust that every Member will support it.

Pat Ramsey (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

I thank Pat Doherty for leading on behalf of the Assembly Commission and for acknowledging the hard work of the Assembly secretariat.

This process has been ongoing for a long time. This is, I think, our third attempt to get the proposals through the House and is the result of extensive consultation in the communities and of party leaders reaching consensus on the way forward. We have always been mindful of developments, particularly contentious developments, in other legislatures on financial support. We have looked at models of best practice in going forward to try to show that we are open and transparent.

The Commission, as Pat Doherty said, is making 17 recommendations for consideration today. Mindful of the clear public interest in the financial support provided to Members, we are bringing those recommendations forward. The recommendations will not only create a much more effective and efficient method of dealing with Members’ expenditure but improve transparency and accountability and increase public confidence in the whole system. The Assembly Commission believes that financial support for Members should be based on 10 clear principles. I want to go through some of the areas that those principles cover, which are important for public representatives.

The first principle is that MLAs have a duty to observe the seven Nolan principles of public life at all times when incurring and claiming for expenditure. That is our clear goal. One of the other key principles is openness and transparency in the overall expenses claimed by Members. Those claims must also be subject separately to data protection, security considerations and other considerations.

Another principle is that resources provided to enable MLAs to undertake their Assembly duties must not benefit financially, directly or indirectly, any political parties or be used for party political activities. Principle 7 makes it clear that arrangements should be avoided that could give rise to an accusation that any MLA, relative or someone close to an MLA is obtaining an element of profit from public funds or that public money is being used or diverted in any way for the benefit of a political party.

The recommendations are important, as some Members outlined. One Commission recommendation that we hoped to commence earlier related to the evaluation of Members’ rental and lease arrangements for their offices. That is a pity. Some Members expressed concern that we were not able to process that work during the present mandate, but time constraints prevented us from ensuring that independent evaluations were carried out. If an independent valuation exercise were to estimate that an office was of a lesser value, the Assembly Commission would adhere to that and pay only the amount of that evaluation.

The Commission also recommends that Members be required to ensure that their constituency offices comply with regulatory standards in respect of their statutory obligations on disablement and a range of other important areas. They should also be required to provide a declaration to that effect when renewing existing leases.

The Commission strongly recommends that no expenses be claimed that relate to a Member’s rental of a property when a Member or a member of his or her family has any connection with that property or holds a lease on it. Our party is keen to go the extra distance by stipulating that no political party should gain financially from any expenses claimed for owning or leasing an office. Perhaps we will deal with that later.

Peter Weir spoke about resettlement money. The difficulty was that a Member with 10 years’ service, a Member who retires because of sickness and a Member who serves for only 10 weeks in the Assembly would all have received the same resettlement money. There was something odd about that, and we would have been unable to defend that position publicly.

Francie Molloy (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

I ask the Member to bring his remarks to a close.

Pat Ramsey (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

I support the motion.

Trevor Lunn (Alliance, Lagan Valley)

I am standing in for Sean Neeson, who is not well today. As I am probably the only Member to speak who is not also a member of the Commission, I am at a slight disadvantage. If I raise queries that have already been discussed by the Commission, I hope that I will be forgiven.

I welcome the recommendations and acknowledge the hard work of the Assembly Commission and secretariat in producing the report, which provides some clarification. As Mr Ramsey said, the key words are “openness” and “transparency”, and we have nothing to fear from those.

Recommendation 4 relates to pension arrangements. I imagine and presume that the new body will not in any way usurp the current position of the pension trustees and that they will still have the same responsibility and freedom of action as they enjoy currently.

Recommendation 8 states that protocols will have to be developed. Frankly, I wish the various bodies luck in developing a protocol for the cost of mobile phones, for instance. We have phones supplied by the Assembly and paid for in that way. As councillors, we may be entitled to a different phone, and we also have mobile phone accounts that allow for 1,000 free minutes. It would be a job to separate them, but I am sure that some accommodation can be arrived at.

Recommendation 9 relates to employing family members. It is good to have that issue clarified. Given the abuse that was heaped on the heads of some of us for employing family members during this mandate, it is a wee bit ironic, but absolutely right, that we are now establishing a situation whereby it is perfectly in order to employ one family member.

Recommendation 11 relates to lease agreements. I presume that it does not mean that a lease agreement that covers the period before and after the election or the determination can be interfered with and that it will just apply to new leases. I am sure that a rental valuation now would produce a lower rent than one that was established three years ago. However, I am making an assumption there.

Finally, recommendation 13 relates to rental of a property with a connected party. That is useful clarification. When I joined the Assembly, I asked the Assembly’s finance people whether it was in order to rent a property that I owned or a family member owned, and I was told that it was in order but I should not do it. That was sage advice, and I did not do it. However, that will now be set in stone in recommendation 13.

We welcome the report and the recommendations. Only a brave man would not welcome them in this context.

Paul Maskey (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. Like Trevor, I am not a member of the Commission, but I, too, will speak on the report. I will be very brief. I am a member of the Committee on Standards and Privileges, which looks at other parts of the report.

Sinn Féin welcomes the Assembly Commission’s report on the financial support and pensions for MLAs. On behalf of the party, I thank the Commission and the secretariat for this important work. We have made submissions to the SSRB and to the review of the financial services handbook. We are committed to transparency and accountability in all aspects of financial matters relating to MLAs and political parties. In fact, I was one of the party representatives who met Sir Christopher Kelly last week on similar matters.

Sinn Féin is one of the first parties, if not the first, to publish our accounts annually, and I would welcome other parties also doing that. We successfully opposed the system by which MLAs could set and vote for their own salaries. I welcome the other parties that are coming round to the position that our party had taken and led the way on.

We support the adoption of the 10 principles, as we hope that they will deal with potential breaches and misuse of expenses. We hope that that has become a thing of the past, because we have seen too much of it in other places. We also support the establishment of an independent panel to deal with pay, pensions and financial matters for MLAs. Finally, we support the 15 recommendations in the report.

Pat Doherty (Sinn Féin, West Tyrone)

Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. I am mindful of the time. I thank all the Members who contributed to the debate. The Assembly Commission has made recommendations in the report that will put in place the necessary governance, accountability and transparency measures to ensure public confidence in the financial services support systems in the Assembly.

I am pleased that Members have again confirmed their agreement to the establishment of an independent financial review panel, which, when established, will determine all issues relating to Members’ pay, pensions and financial support. I will seek to address the issues that were raised during the debate, and, if Members feel that I have not covered them all, I am more than happy to write to them.

Mr Weir, who is a member of the Commission, summed it up very well when he talked about putting our house in order. That phrase has carried us through all this business. He talked about support for the principles and ironing out any flaws in the system.

Rev Bob Coulter spoke of his length of time on the Commission. It has been a lengthy period and time well served. He paid tribute to the Commission and the secretariat, and he reminded the media — I support him in this — that MLAs turned down an increase of up to £10,000. That should be well and truly noted. He committed himself to the principles of transparency and accountability.

Mr Pat Ramsey said that it is the Commission’s third attempt to get the report through the Assembly. He, too, supports those principles, particularly the Nolan principles, which he highlighted. He focused particularly on new arrangements for the independent evaluation of constituency offices and the fact that those offices must be to the highest standards.

Mr Trevor Lunn stood in for Mr Sean Neeson. I hope that Sean is recovering from his illness. Mr Lunn spoke of transparency, accountability and openness. He queried certain arrangements. As he is not a Commission member, I understand why he is not fully familiar with the details. I propose to respond to his detailed queries in writing.

Paul Maskey said that he welcomed the report on behalf of Sinn Féin. I am glad that he said that. There would have been some difficulty had he said something else. He committed himself to transparency and accountability, as other Members have done. He supports the report in its entirety.

I am mindful of the time. The Assembly Commission is confident that the report’s recommendations will enhance existing governance arrangements and will ensure that robust systems are in place for Members to carry out their duties as public representatives effectively. I commend the report to the House.

Question put and agreed to.

Resolved:

That this Assembly approves the Assembly Commission’s report on the financial support and pensions for Members of the Northern Ireland Assembly (December 2010); and makes the Northern Ireland Assembly (Members’ Expenditure) Determination 2010.

Francie Molloy (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

As Question Time begins at 2.30 pm, I ask Members to take their ease for a few minutes.

Enterprise, Trade and Investment

Reg Empey (UUP, Belfast East)

1. asked the Minister of Enterprise, Trade and Investment for her assessment of the potential sale of the Northern Ireland Electricity grid to the Electricity Supply Board. (AQO 719/11)

Arlene Foster (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

The potential sale is a commercial matter between Arcapita, the Bahrain-based private equity owner of Northern Ireland Electricity plc (NIE), and the Electricity Supply Board (ESB) in the Republic of Ireland. The transaction has been the subject of scrutiny by the UK Office of Fair Trading and the Irish Competition Commission, both of which have concluded that there are no impediments to the transaction completing. Completion of the sale is well advanced and is expected to conclude early in the new year, with financing for the transaction having been secured by ESB.

I have received assurances from the Irish energy Minister, as well as from the chairman and chief executive of ESB, on matters relating to the long-term operation of NIE and the investment in the Northern Ireland grid that will be required over the next 10 to 15 years.

Reg Empey (UUP, Belfast East)

The Minister will be aware of the considerable concern in Northern Ireland at the proposed takeover of our electricity grid by an Irish state body, especially given the difficult financial climate in the Republic. She will also be aware that the First Minister and I wrote to the Irish Prime Minister about the issue in the summer of this year. Leaving the commercial aspects aside, will the Minister tell the House whether she is for or against the takeover?

Arlene Foster (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

It is interesting to hear the language that the Member uses. He asks whether I am “for” or “against” the takeover, but, on 17 August 2000, when he was Minister of Enterprise, Trade and Investment, he was happy to endorse ESB’s involvement in Coolkeeragh. It is interesting to see how things change in relation to the matter.

The House is very much aware of the fact that I have grave concerns about the issue. It is because of my concerns that I have been proactive in dealing with them. Unlike the Ulster Unionist Party, which whips up concerns, I try to address them. Therefore, I have received assurances from the Irish energy Minister and from the chairman and chief executive of ESB on a number of matters, including, most importantly, the protection of jobs and pension arrangements in NIE. I have also received assurances that adequate funding, which is a key element, will be provided to ensure the long-term strategic development of the Northern Ireland electricity grid; that there will be effective governance measures to prevent interference in the operation of the respective companies by the Irish Government; and that there will be Northern Ireland representation on the board of NIE and ESB.

It is disappointing when a former Minister of Enterprise, Trade and Investment makes such allegations as to whether I am for or against the takeover. He will well know that I have no control over this commercial transaction. In fact, it was the Tory party that privatised NIE many years ago. If it had not done so, we would have had some control over the transaction. The Member would be better advised to ask his franchisee about the matter.

Alban Maginness (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast North)

Leaving aside the spat between the Ulster Unionists and the DUP, I thank the Minister for her answer. The deal should be welcomed, not least because ESB brings with it the intention to invest £1 billion in the grid system in Northern Ireland. That will be of enormous benefit to us all, in particular in the development of renewable energy.

Francie Molloy (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

Will the Member come to his question?

Alban Maginness (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast North)

Does the Minister agree that that is of benefit to the whole of Northern Ireland?

Arlene Foster (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

It was precisely in relation to those matters that I met with ESB to make sure that it was going to invest in the grid, particularly with respect to the renewable elements. As I have indicated, ESB has been involved in the energy market here for some time. Its first entry was its involvement in the Coolkeeragh power station. I have sought the leave of the chief executive of ESB to place his letter of assurance in the Library so that all Members can read it. It is a lengthy letter, and it sets out what he intends to do in relation to NIE’s further work plan. It is a comprehensive and detailed letter. I hope that Members take the time to look at the letter, because it is significant.

Billy Leonard (Sinn Féin, East Londonderry)

Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. To save those intra-unionist spats, and given the potential of Ireland to generate wind, tidal and wave power, plus the development of the single market, does the Minister agree that the best approach would be a well-integrated, all-island energy policy?

Arlene Foster (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

No, I do not. As I have already said in the House today, we will set our own agenda on energy as part of the United Kingdom. As I also said today, the market for electricity and energy as a whole is not just in relation to this island, or even to the British Isles. It is much wider than that. It is a European issue now, and that is well recognised by the European Commission. If we want to secure our energy supply well into the future, interconnection between this island and GB, and between GB and mainland Europe — all those interconnectivities — needs to take place, and I will be pushing for that.

Jonathan Craig (DUP, Lagan Valley)

2. asked the Minister of Enterprise, Trade and Investment what action her Department is taking to improve broadband access for business and residential customers in rural areas. (AQO 720/11)

Arlene Foster (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

I am taking forward a number of initiatives aimed at improving broadband access for business and residential consumers located in rural areas. These include the £48 million next-generation broadband project, which is rolling out the highest level of fibre-to-the-cabinet technology in the United Kingdom; the £1·9 million Northern Ireland broadband fund, which has seen significant roll-out of fixed-wireless broadband services; and the £1·2 million remote broadband services contract, through which satellite broadband services have been made available region-wide.

Jonathan Craig (DUP, Lagan Valley)

I thank the Minister for outlining those issues. Will she outline in some more detail what will be done in the Lagan valley area, particularly in the Hillsborough exchange, where there are some major issues with broadband?

Arlene Foster (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

I am delighted to announce the outcome of the fifth call under the Northern Ireland broadband fund. One application has been successful and will see BT deploying fibre-to-the cabinet technology to an additional 23 cabinets in rural areas of Northern Ireland, five of which are located in the Hillsborough telephone exchange area. I hope that the Member will be a little bit more content on that matter. It is something that he has constantly lobbied me on, and I am delighted to see that we can add another 23 cabinets in rural areas of Northern Ireland to the broadband upgrade.

Claire McGill (Sinn Féin, West Tyrone)

Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. I thank the Minister for her earlier response. Like the previous Member, I ask the Minister to outline how people in West Tyrone, in places such as Plumbridge, Greencastle, Donemana and elsewhere will benefit from whatever funding is due.

Arlene Foster (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

The Member will know — we are to have a meeting in the near future on the specific issues that she has raised in relation to broadband — that £505,000 of support has been offered to two communications providers to deliver commercial wireless broadband services in counties Londonderry, Tyrone and Fermanagh, and, most recently, to the north Antrim coast. Some £48,000 of support has been offered to H2O Ireland Ltd, which is using waste-water disposal infrastructure to develop an optical fibre network in Enniskillen town centre. I know, because I have been there.

A fifth call for projects, which I have just mentioned, has prioritised 18 areas across Northern Ireland, and the successful project will see the deployment of fibre-to-the-cabinet technology. There will be an additional 23 cabinets in Lagan Valley, and cabinets will also be placed in Armagh, Down and Tyrone. I do not have the specifics of the issue that the Member raised, but I am happy to allow her to see the 23 areas that we are talking about.

Patsy McGlone (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Mid Ulster)

Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. I thank the Minister for her answer. I note that she referred to areas of County Tyrone where there is likely to be additional investment. Obviously I do not expect her to have the detail with her today, but I ask her to specifically look at the areas around Moortown, Ardboe and Brackagh, which have suffered from a lengthy period of poor broadband availability, which is inhibiting access by ordinary consumers and inhibiting the growth of business in those areas.

Arlene Foster (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

I will get back to the Member in relation to those three areas. The contract that we signed with BT to deliver faster broadband speeds was carried out in conjunction with some money from the Department of Agriculture and Rural Development to specifically target rural businesses, and I was very pleased that that was the case. For rural areas, the contract with BT stipulates that businesses are going to be able to access broadband services of at least two megabytes per second. In reality, more than 25% of rural businesses are expected to have over five megabytes per second, or better. As I said, I will get back to the Member about his particular interest in those three areas.

Jonathan Bell (DUP, Strangford)

3. asked the Minister of Enterprise, Trade and Investment for her assessment of the developing trade and investment opportunities between Northern Ireland and China. (AQO 721/11)

Ian McCrea (DUP, Mid Ulster)

10. asked the Minister of Enterprise, Trade and Investment for an update on the recent trade mission to Shanghai and Hong Kong. (AQO 728/11)

Arlene Foster (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

With your permission, Mr Deputy Speaker, I will answer questions 3 and 10 together.

Last week, I led a delegation of 25 companies to China and Hong Kong, and early indications from the participants suggest that new business orders will follow from what was a successful trade mission. I also used the mission to showcase the international competitiveness of Northern Ireland companies and their ability to compete in the high-growth Chinese marketplace.

I was pleased to visit the offices of Andor Technology, which is establishing a strong presence in Shanghai. The mission also helped to highlight the activities of the Invest Northern Ireland Shanghai office, which was established some years ago to exploit trade and investment opportunities there. Invest NI is aware of opportunities that can come from China and, through its Shanghai office, will monitor the opportunities for foreign direct investment (FDI) and ensure that it takes advantage of the opportunities that arise. My visit programme included discussion with trade and tourism bodies, including representatives from the British Embassy and Tourism Ireland.

Jonathan Bell (DUP, Strangford)

I thank the Minister for the work that she has done to attract investment from China to Northern Ireland. How does she assess the ability of Northern Ireland businesses to maximise the potential job opportunities that can flow?

Arlene Foster (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

China is one of the so-called BRIC countries — Brazil, Russia, India and China — that we have heard so much about recently from the Chancellor of the Exchequer. They are growing at a rate that means that we cannot ignore those markets. When I was in Hong Kong, I was told that it had experienced 6∙5% growth this year. China has experienced 8% growth. The sheer size of those economies means that we have to take them seriously. There is no doubt that the size of and distance to China make it a daunting and challenging prospect for many of our smaller businesses, but I hope that our presence in Shanghai, together with a proactive team in Belfast, will allow them to look for those global markets. We need to work with those markets that are growing so that we can experience growth, and I hope that some of the smaller companies will take up that challenge.

Ken Robinson (UUP, East Antrim)

I thank the Minister for widening the scope beyond China to the BRIC countries. It saves me from having to introduce it by some nefarious means. Will the Minister give the House some details of the successes that Northern Ireland has had in trade missions over the past three years, let us say, with those BRIC countries?

Arlene Foster (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

The Member knows that, last September, I was on a particularly important trade mission to India. Out of that, foreign direct investment came from India to Northern Ireland within a short period of time. We have sent trade missions to Russia, but not as proactively as to India and China. Brazil is the market that we have been least active in, and it is one that we need to look at. Brazil provides us with Marfrig, which now owns Moy Park and O’Kane’s. It is one of our biggest foreign direct investors.

In relation to China, F G Wilson (Engineering) Limited is Northern Ireland’s most successful exporter, with sales of its generator sets. Others have gone there, too. Randox is quite successful there, as is B/E Aerospace with its aircraft seats, Andor Technology, of course, and Wrightbus. If you are in Hong Kong, it is likely that you will be riding along on a Wrightbus from Ballymena. It is tremendous to be in Hong Kong and to see the W come towards you. It gave me a great sense of pride to see those new buses arrive in Kowloon and to know that they will be used in Hong Kong. Wrightbus is to be commended. When it was in difficult times, it went out and looked for new markets. Now it has gained new export markets in places that it would probably not have thought of before. I commend Wrightbus for its work.

Mickey Brady (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. Does the Minister agree that the development of the renewable energy sector, both in manufacturing and infrastructure, is vital to developing trade and exports to other countries?

Arlene Foster (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

Yes. Last month, Invest Northern Ireland assisted with an inward investment visit by the XEMC Wind Power Corporation, which is a wholly owned subsidiary of the XEMC Group. It is 38% state owned and manufactures in the Hunan province in China. The company is coming out into the world and is looking for places in which to invest, which applies to Chinese companies across the piece. That has been seen most recently in the purchase of EDF Energy, a power company in GB, which means that the Chinese Government have a say in the power infrastructure of GB. One wonders what the Ulster Unionists would have to say about that.

It is an indication that China is coming out into the world and is looking for places in which to invest. I think that we can attract Chinese investment in renewable energy. Chinese investors are also interested in other infrastructural investments, and we are keen to talk to them.

Anna Lo (Alliance, Belfast South)

I welcome the Minister’s recent visit to China. Wrightbus has operated there for a long time, perhaps 20 years. Every year, I hear about our companies making two trips to China, but follow-up work is needed with China. We need to build up that relationship and friendship. The odd visit is not really worth that much.

Francie Molloy (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

Question.

Anna Lo (Alliance, Belfast South)

Will the Minister explain what kind of follow-up work our offices in Shanghai and Hong Kong normally do?

Arlene Foster (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

As I said, we have an office in Shanghai. On the visit, I was accompanied by the chief executive of Invest Northern Ireland, and one reason for the visit was to assess what more we needed to do in the Far East. Should we have an office in Hong Kong, for example? I think that we should, because Hong Kong, as the Member knows, is the gateway into and out of China. If our companies were there, it would give them a good stepping stone into the Chinese market, which is absolutely huge. Hong Kong is a free trade area with China, so that is a strong proposition for some of our companies. The visit was partly a trade mission, and we were looking for foreign direct investment. However, we were also assessing what more we could do. The Member’s question is apt, because we need to do more in the Far East.

Trevor Lunn (Alliance, Lagan Valley)

4. asked the Minister of Enterprise, Trade and Investment, in light of the tourism potential of the 2012 Olympics, for her assessment of the remarks by the chief executive of Sport NI on the failure to date to attract teams to train in Northern Ireland. (AQO 722/11)

Arlene Foster (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

I concur with the remarks made by my colleague the Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure. It is regrettable that the chief executive of Sport NI chose this particular time to air what is obviously a personal viewpoint. Given the global exposure afforded to the Olympic Games, it is our intention to use the event as a lever to generate additional overseas visitors to Northern Ireland. We will also utilise contact with non-accredited press during the games and use the opportunities to showcase Northern Ireland throughout the torch relay.

Trevor Lunn (Alliance, Lagan Valley)

The Minister has pre-empted my supplementary question. Does she agree that, given the enormous number of people who will attend the Olympic Games and the large proportion who will claim Ulster connections, any negative comment by people in the public eye or in authority should be avoided?

Arlene Foster (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

I am tempted to say that we should leave it to the press and media to make negative comments, because that seems to be what they are best at. However, it is unlikely that the world’s largest event will be so close to Northern Ireland again during our lifetimes, so the opportunities to build on that are unprecedented.

We have been working with the tour operators who are responsible for co-ordinating the travel arrangements for athletes participating in the games to ensure that we are included in the pre- and post-Olympics packages. If people will be travelling from afar, from places such as Australia or New Zealand, they may want to add something on to their visit. We are arranging pre- and post-Olympics familiarisation visits for key media contacts attending the games, and we are also targeting displaced Londoners who may wish to escape the whole Olympics experience. We are trying to tell them to come to Northern Ireland because we have great value offers and packages linked to other events. We are trying to present ourselves as a destination in which to relax and rejuvenate. Therefore, we are being proactive. The year 2012 is hugely important for Northern Ireland for many reasons, not least the London Olympics.

Gregory Campbell (DUP, East Londonderry)

The Minister referred to using leverage around the 2012 Olympics. While trying to ensure that visitors come to Northern Ireland from London, will she ensure that considerable mention is made of the fantastic achievement of the rowers from the north coast? Will she further ensure that, to use a pun, some considerable leverage is deployed to get people who are interested in that sport to come to the north coast?

Arlene Foster (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

There has been a lot of talk about golf recently, and rightly so. We have had tremendous successes, most recently by Graeme — I will not say his second name because, if he is here, Mr McClarty will correct me again.

Conall McDevitt (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast South)

McDow-ell.

Arlene Foster (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

McDow-ell. I much —

Gregory Campbell (DUP, East Londonderry)

G-Mac.

Arlene Foster (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

G-Mac, yes, I will call him G-Mac. That is much safer in the House.

It is the Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure’s (DCAL) remit rather than mine, but the rowers have been tremendously successful over the years and, sometimes, their achievements have not been recognised. We are working closely with DCAL in the pre-games training camp group and we are pushing in all the areas in which we have been successful, and I hope that we have some success.

Thomas Burns (Social Democratic and Labour Party, South Antrim)

Will the Minister detail her Department’s input with tourism bodies to attract international teams that may, prospectively, use Northern Ireland as a base?

Arlene Foster (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

As I indicated, DCAL is working with us in the pre-games training camps. Obviously, the Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure takes the lead in that matter. The Northern Ireland Tourist Board represents my Department’s interests and it is committed to supporting the work of that group. We fully support the games strategy, a point that is illustrated through the agency’s representation on a number of groups and the delivery of key tourism projects for 2012. We have a great product to offer in 2012, right across the spectrum from the Titanic Quarter to the Giant’s Causeway. Therefore, it is important that we sell that product through the Northern Ireland Tourist Board or Tourism Ireland.

Wallace (DUP, Belfast East)

5. asked the Minister of Enterprise, Trade and Investment for her assessment of the research and development statistics recently published by her Department. (AQO 723/11)

Arlene Foster (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

The exploitation of research and development to grow the economy is highlighted in the Programme for Government. Therefore, I welcome the encouraging results of the 2009 survey. Total business expenditure on R&D has increased by 76%, which is a positive indicator of how our companies are investing for the future. The 36% increase among our indigenous small and medium-sized enterprises is, perhaps, most noticeable. Much of that has been delivered through enhanced collaboration between firms and universities. Such collaboration will remain a key driver in our forthcoming economic strategy.

Wallace (DUP, Belfast East)

I thank the Minister for her answer. I welcome the fact that that was the highest research and development expenditure on record in Northern Ireland. However, will the Minister give details of Belfast companies that have benefited from research and development, which, it has been proven, is critically associated with success?

Arlene Foster (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

Of course, Bombardier, in the Member’s constituency, is the biggest driver of innovation and research and development. The CSeries aircraft’s composite wing, which is made using a resin transfer infusion process, was developed in Belfast with R&D support from my Department. The benefits of that process are significant for the aerospace industry. Progress in making such advanced materials will also help other industries such as Wrightbus.

The CSeries wing programme will result in £520 million of investment in Northern Ireland. As the House knows, that is the largest ever single outside investment in Northern Ireland, and it will greatly develop, to a completely new level, the capability and skills at Queen’s Island and generate more than 800 jobs during the peak production years. Another company called APT Licensing was recently acquired by CSR plc, and that will further strengthen our region’s research expertise and skills base.

That was a spin-out company from the university. So, again, we are seeing innovation and research and development leading the way. There is much more to be done, particularly in accessing European funds under the seventh framework (FP7), and the new eighth framework (FP8) when it comes.

Conall McDevitt (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast South)

I join the Minister in acknowledging the significant progress that we are making in developing an innovation culture here in the region. Does she agree that now is absolutely not the time to cut back research or university education funding and that this is the time to redouble our investment in those areas?

Arlene Foster (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

I am happy to agree with the Member that one key element in increasing our research and development and innovation has been the work between the industry and the universities. We have only two universities in Northern Ireland, as I said earlier, in relation to the European moneys that we hope to access. However, having only two to work with gives us the chance to be even more proactive. I believe absolutely that both are world-class universities. We cannot allow funding difficulties to dumb them down because it is so important for us to have them driving forward research and development and innovation so that we have further spin-out companies, which we so need.

Danny Kinahan (UUP, South Antrim)

I thank the Minister for her answers. She partially covered what I was going to say and mainly did so without petty point-scoring. In connection with the development of the Northern Ireland economic strategy, does the Minister plan to further stimulate innovation, research and development and other areas of growth, apart from the universities?

Arlene Foster (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

If the Member had have been in the House earlier, he would have heard me talk about the plans for innovation in relation to the FP7 money and the fact that Invest Northern Ireland has appointed someone in Brussels to liaise with the European Commission to make sure that we get the maximum amount of money out of FP7 and to try and focus FP8 so that smaller businesses here in Northern Ireland can take advantage of those. I know that, for small businesses, it is a daunting prospect to look to European funds because of all the bureaucracy. We made those points very clearly to Máire Geoghegan-Quinn, the European Commissioner, when she visited us in November, and I hope that she will take those messages to Brussels.

Fra McCann (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

6. asked the Minister of Enterprise, Trade and Investment to outline any discussions her Department has had with the Minister of Finance and Personnel about transferring assets to the community and voluntary sector to assist with the development of the social economy. (AQO 724/11)

Arlene Foster (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

My Department has had no discussions with the Department of Finance and Personnel (DFP) about transferring assets to the community and voluntary sector to assist with the development of the social economy. DETI officials have met officials from the DFP to consider wider social economy issues in relation to capacity building in the sector. Both Departments are also represented on a number of stakeholder groups that provide for a two-way exchange of views on matters that relate to the social economy sector.

Fra McCann (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

I thank the Minister for her response. Will she confirm her commitment to the social economy as a key priority for her Department? Will she assure the House that the social economy will be protected in the Budget?

Arlene Foster (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

I hope that, by now, the Member knows how much emphasis I place on the social economy. It can be seen in how supportive I have been of Invest NI’s social entrepreneurship programme and the fact that we have published a social economy strategy. I have visited Sector Matters in NICVA (Northern Ireland Council for Voluntary Action) to see the excellent work that it carries out on behalf of the whole social economy sector. I was in Glengall Street and visited the fair that it held there. At every opportunity, I promote the social economy because it can do things for Government perhaps even better than Government can.

John McCallister (UUP, South Down)

I am grateful to the Minister for her reply. What more can she do to encourage the social economy partners, particularly to help economic growth at this very difficult time?

Arlene Foster (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

As I said to the previous Member, I have been very proactive about the social economy sector, because it can provide services for the communities in a way in which Government would not be able to provide them. It is very much of the local community, and it understands what goes on at local community level in a way in which perhaps Government does not. It can provide services; indeed, social economy organisations carry out very inspiring work, as they provide jobs for young people who would not otherwise have a job.

We need to support the social economy ever more, and I will not be found wanting when it comes to that economy.

Regional Development

Francie Molloy (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

Question 13 has been withdrawn.

Reg Empey (UUP, Belfast East)

1. asked the Minister for Regional Development who is responsible for gritting and clearing snow on public footpaths. (AQO 734/11)

Dolores Kelly (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Upper Bann)

9. asked the Minister for Regional Development what steps his Department is taking, in conjunction with local councils, to ensure that all key roads and pavements are gritted during particularly cold spells of weather. (AQO 742/11)

Samuel Gardiner (UUP, Upper Bann)

15. asked the Minister for Regional Development how his Department works in conjunction with local councils to grit and clear snow on public footpaths. (AQO 748/11)

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

A LeasCheann Comhairle, with your permission, I will reply to questions 1, 9 and 15 together, because they all concern gritting and the clearing of snow from public footpaths.

During the most recent review of Roads Service’s winter service policy, which was fully debated and accepted by the Assembly, it was recognised that the cost of salting all footways would be prohibitive and that the basic logistics of introducing such a service, which is largely a manual task, made it impractical. In the same review, it was proposed that in periods of prolonged lying snow, the Department for Regional Development would seek to enlist the help of other agencies, such as district councils, to assist in clearing busy town centre footways and pedestrian areas. In consultation with NILGA, Roads Service drew up a draft legal agreement to try to facilitate that process. However, at that time, only a small number of councils signed up to the agreement.

After last year’s spell of wintry weather, I asked the chief executive of Roads Service to revisit the issue. Since that time, Roads Service has provided NILGA with further clarity on an amended model. The main change is that the indemnity offered to councils in the original agreement can now be extended to a private sector organisation acting as the council’s subcontractor or agent. I recently met NILGA representatives to discuss and clarify a number of issues about that agreement, and I am hopeful that councils will now be in a position to sign up to that voluntary partnering agreement.

Roads Service has confirmed that it continues to provide 3,500 salt boxes and 39,000 grit piles at strategic locations, which can be used by the general public on a self-help basis to help prevent the formation of snow and ice on pavements and roads. With regard to ensuring that all key roads are gritted during particularly cold spells of weather, Roads Service has no statutory obligation to salt roads. However, it earmarks funds to provide a salting service with the aim of helping main-road traffic to move safely and freely in wintry conditions.

Reg Empey (UUP, Belfast East)

I thank the Minister for his reply. He will be well aware of the deep frustration and, indeed, anger throughout the community about the recent chaos during the cold weather, the number of people who have been injured and the number of businesses that have been damaged. What steps will the Minister take to resolve the liability and insurance issue whereby those who actually do help themselves by gritting areas adjacent to their property are subject to liability? If that could be resolved, at least one problem would be solved.

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

That question arose during my recent meeting with NILGA. In the original proposition, to which Belfast City Council and Ballymena Borough Council signed up, the issue of indemnity for councils that carry out that work was resolved. However, a further issue arose when I asked that the negotiations around indemnity for third parties who may carry out such work on behalf of councils be restarted following another cold spell earlier this year. When I met NILGA the other week to provide it with further clarity, the issue of blanket cover for all people involved arose.

I am quite happy to see whether some kind of statement can be made. The statement from the Attorney General in the South was given as an example. However, Roads Service has been distributing grit boxes throughout housing estates for many years, and people have been going out on a self-help basis to clear the areas around their homes and those of their neighbours without any indemnity issues. I cannot understand why people would think that what does not apply on housing estates would apply on shopping streets. I am quite happy to provide clarity, if people think that they need it. However, I do not believe that there is an issue. The issues around indemnity were resolved a long time ago.

Samuel Gardiner (UUP, Upper Bann)

Does the Minister agree that it would be more convenient for the public if they were able to get grit boxes, sand and salt in various towns, rather than having to drive into the centre of Craigavon? Some people are doing a 5- or 6-mile round trip to the depot there to collect sand or salt. It is limited to the sand boxes, and boxes are no longer available for the public in the Craigavon area. Can the Minister further clarify —

Francie Molloy (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

One question only.

Samuel Gardiner (UUP, Upper Bann)

Thank you.

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

Different local councils have different arrangements with their local Roads Service sectional offices, and they can make particular arrangements that suit them. I know that that has worked in other council areas. I advise the Member to talk to Craigavon Borough Council about what local arrangements it has with Roads Service in the Craigavon area. It is difficult for Roads Service when a lot of people turn up at its depots, because there is usually a lot of activity with gritting lorries coming in and out and salt barns being replenished. If members of the public or, indeed, some council officials, turn up in the middle of that work, a hazard can be created.

However, I have heard councillors from other areas express the view that they have come to satisfactory local arrangements with their local Roads Service depot. I think that there has been a willingness to do that. I advocate that the Member talk to Craigavon Borough Council about coming to a similar satisfactory arrangement.

Michelle McIlveen (DUP, Strangford)

Is the Minister content for people in houses on unadopted roads to be at the mercy of developers to provide salt and grit? Furthermore, what will his Department do to assist those who find themselves in a situation in which the developer has been declared bankrupt?

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

The Member will know that the issue of unadopted roads is one where the end of the property boom meant that construction contractors got into difficulties, particularly in recent times. Roads Service has the option of deploying the bond that it holds to finish the work that a contractor has left behind. It is reluctant to do that in the first instance, because, once a bond is called in, the developer is effectively declared bankrupt. Therefore, if Roads Service were to take that as a first option, I am sure that many Members would come to me to ask that people be given some space and time. Those people may be able to remain solvent and get the work done, and they may be waiting for other contracts or payments to come in. The option to finish properly the job that contractors have left behind is not one that Roads Service would visit first, but it is open to it. In such cases, roads can be adopted, and the normal arrangements that apply to other estates will be in place.

Martina Anderson (Sinn Féin, Foyle)

Go raibh míle maith agat. Is the Minister confident that a resolution will be found with local councils soon?

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

I cannot see any reason why a resolution should not be found. As I said, two councils signed up to the agreement originally, and activities connected to that agreement came into place in about 2003. Up to seven councils have now made arrangements with Roads Service, be they formal or informal, to get the work done. I have heard people who have been interviewed over the past week or two say that they have been quite satisfied with their local arrangement with Roads Service. Members of the public in the towns and boroughs that those people serve are also quite satisfied with the service that has been provided. Therefore, if councils have questions about indemnity issues, I think that they should be resolved.

However, if the issue is one of resources, it is, of course, up to each council to decide how much clearing and salting it wants to do. As I said publicly when I was being interviewed, our chief executives told me that the conditions mean that manual staff cannot be deployed at this time of year but that they could be usefully deployed in salting and gritting footpaths. Therefore, I am hopeful that councils will sign up to the agreement. I think that it is the best arrangement. It is a voluntary arrangement; it cannot be imposed on people. However, if we are to keep footways safe for people to walk on, particularly in town centres and shopping areas, it is a good arrangement. Where councils have become involved in the arrangement, they have, by and large, been satisfied with the way that it has worked out.

Dolores Kelly (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Upper Bann)

This matter is quite serious, and, as we know, a Scottish Minister fell on his own sword over it. Does the Minister now agree that there is a need for clear leadership and that, given the complex nature of the issue, it would be best if an interdepartmental task force were established?

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

I am not sure why the Member wants to make a complex arrangement any more complex by establishing an interdepartmental task force. I am not sure how that would satisfy anything. The discussion has been quite clear. The Assembly debated the matter back in 2001 or 2002. Indeed, I think that the Member on the opposite Benches brought a proposal on winter services to the Assembly.

The Assembly debated and agreed that proposal, and it also agreed that, in circumstances such as snow lying on footpaths, it would seek to enter into voluntary arrangements with councils and other agencies so that the work in question could be carried out. An agreement was drawn up through NILGA, and discussions with councils were held. Two of those councils signed up to the agreement, which has been revisited. I took the lead earlier this year by asking Roads Service to go to NILGA again to see whether we could revisit the agreement and find out about and deal with the issues that councils felt were preventing them from becoming involved. Further indemnity issues arose, and we put in an amended proposal that dealt with those issues. On that basis, I think that another five or six councils have come on board, and I have been told that more are likely to do so.

As I said in response to the previous question, where councils have come on board, the arrange­ments seem to be satisfactory. I have not heard of any indemnity issues that have arisen with either Belfast City Council or Ballymena Borough Council, which have both been carrying out the service for a number of years.

I am not sure how the Member feels that the situation would be eased or made less complex by reversing things and setting up a cross-departmental task force to deal with the issue. The clear way to deal with it is to set up voluntary arrangements with local government organisations, and I am glad to say that that approach is proving to be successful.

John Dallat (Social Democratic and Labour Party, East Londonderry)

2. asked the Minister for Regional Development when he intends to bring forward legislation on the role of the Utility Regulator and the Competition Commission in relation to water. (AQO 735/11)

P J Bradley (Social Democratic and Labour Party, South Down)

5. asked the Minister for Regional Development, in relation to his ministerial statement of 13 September 2010, to outline any proposals regarding NI Water that he has brought to the Executive. (AQO 738/11)

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

With your permission, a LeasCheann Comhairle, I will reply to questions 2 and 5 together.

In my statement on 13 September, I advised the Assembly that I intend to put proposals to the Executive on both short- and long-term governance arrangements and structures for NI Water. I said that I would propose short-term legislative changes to stabilise existing governance arrangements before Christmas and that I would submit longer-term proposals on the status of NIW in the new year. Legislation resulting from the short-term proposals should be taken forward at the start of next year, and legislation resulting from the longer-term recommendations will need to be taken forward under the new Assembly. The short-term proposals are as outlined in my statement of 13 September. A paper on the longer-term proposals has been formulated, and I intend to circulate it among Executive colleagues prior to the Christmas recess.

John Dallat (Social Democratic and Labour Party, East Londonderry)

Will the Minister assure the House that, despite internal or external advice that he might have received, he will continue to support the involvement of the Utility Regulator in NI Water, so that standards can be driven up and efficiencies achieved?

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

Standards in the provision of clean drinking water and in the work carried out by NIW and its contractors are very high. The efficiencies targets that have been set for NIW are twice those set for other Departments and agencies. Although the broad efficiency target is 3%, the target set for NIW is 6%, which it is confident that it can achieve. The reality is that the Utility Regulator was brought in to regulate a self-financing, private-sector-type company. However, that is not the situation that emerged with NIW, because of the Executive’s reluctance to follow through on direct rule proposals, which, with the exception of the Alliance Party, all parties here were opposed to. Therefore, there is a need to look again at the Utility Regulator’s powers, which came about as part of the contradictory process around NIW, as opposed to that which was envisaged under direct rule. Consequently, some changes will be required. Nevertheless, I am happy to talk to the Utility Regulator. I have already met its chairman, and my officials are dealing with the regulator’s office. I am quite happy to talk about whatever proposals might be required.

P J Bradley (Social Democratic and Labour Party, South Down)

The widespread view among those who note the happenings in the Assembly is that the Minister’s statement on 13 September was little other than a Sinn Féin kite-flying exercise. Does the Minister concede that a positive consensus should be sought in the Executive, even in advance of the next elections?

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

If the Member had listened to what I said at the time, he would know that that is clearly my intention. I said that I would bring forward proposals to Executive colleagues to get a consensus that would inform the mandate that comes in after the election. I am glad that he supports that, because, when I went in front of the Committee, his party colleague was less than enthusiastic about the idea of changing legislation relating to NIW’s powers. However, it is not unusual for the SDLP to adopt one position in private and another in public.

Billy Leonard (Sinn Féin, East Londonderry)

The Minister indicated that he is considering long-term proposals. What are those long-term proposals?

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

The current governance system is a hybrid of a regulated self-funding utility in law and a publicly funded non-departmental public body (NDPB) for financial purposes. As I said, that causes numerous inconsistencies and risks, which I want to address. Three options are being considered: the status quo; a statutory corporation; and an NDPB. Officials are carrying out an appraisal that will consider monetary and non-monetary costs and benefits, along with any wider impacts. That appraisal will inform decisions on the way forward. The future roles of key stakeholders will depend on which option is accepted.

Tommy Gallagher (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

3. asked the Minister for Regional Development whether road maintenance is currently a priority for his Department. (AQO 736/11)

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

Maintaining the surface and underlying structure of roads and footways is essential for the social and economic well-being of the North, and road maintenance continues to be one of my Department’s highest priorities. In recognition of that, I confirm that the current structural maintenance allocation for 2010-11 is some £71 million. That level of expenditure has allowed my Department’s Roads Service to give priority to the maintenance of the strategic road network, which carries the greatest volume of traffic. Other roads, including rural roads, have and will receive resurfacing treatments as far as the Budget allocation permits.

Tommy Gallagher (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

The Minister will know that his Department’s timeline for repairing and resurfacing rural roads is once every 187 years. Will he give us a timeline for the repair of potholes, more of which will emerge after the freeze that we have had, from reporting to completion of work?

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

The timeline is the same as that which existed before the freezing weather. There is an intention, which is accepted under law and is part of the reasonable defence case for damage to vehicles as a result of pot holes. All Members will know that not enough money is going into structural maintenance, nor has it been for a long time; the Snaith report, which was commissioned by my Department, provided further evidence of that. Roads Service bids every year for what it considers sufficient, and it gets an allocation that it has to manage as best it possibly can. I cannot see how any Member would be satisfied with the allocation; I am certainly not satisfied with it. However, it is up against the allocations that are awarded to all other Departments and to all other essential services and key requirements that Ministers argue for at all other times.

When Members make proposals to upgrade roads, spend money on cycle paths or increase threefold the provision of winter service, we have to balance the costs associated with such proposals against the amount of money spent on a ton of salt as opposed to that spent on a ton of bitmac and decide which of those will have the longer-term effect on road structures. Those are hard choices to make, and I do not anticipate them getting any easier.

Gregory Campbell (DUP, East Londonderry)

Will the Minister ensure that some priority will be given to unplanned maintenance? The past week’s extreme weather conditions, which were mentioned by the Member for Fermanagh and South Tyrone, have resulted in road surfaces deteriorating, in some instances considerably, to a worse condition than they were in a month ago.

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

We will certainly be bidding for that. We have allocated some £3·7 million across Roads Service’s divisions to deal with unplanned maintenance, and we have bid for additional money in the December monitoring round to cover it. However, we enter into those processes with every other Department making equally compelling cases. I noted that one of the Member’s colleagues said that we did not have enough money in the reserves to deal with this matter. The fact is that there is no money in the reserves. We have what we have, and we try to allocate it as best we possibly can.

When Members argue for money to be spent on certain Budget areas, they should realise that that money has to come from another Budget area. Parties argue for money for social housing, but that money has to come from other Departments and from money that might otherwise be spent on roads and resurfacing. It is a challenge, because road surfaces generally are deteriorating and the volume and weight of traffic are increasing. I have long argued in the Executive and in the Assembly that the roads network is the single biggest asset that is owned by the Executive, and sufficient money needs to be invested in it to maintain it.

Kieran McCarthy (Alliance, Strangford)

The Minister is a strong advocate for fairness and equality. He knows about the deplorable condition of the roads in the Strangford constituency and, in particular, on the Ards Peninsula. Will he do his best with his £71 million to ensure that a fairer and more equitable slice of that cake comes to the Strangford constituency?

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

I have had this discussion with the Member on many occasions, and he never misses an opportunity. The allocation is fair; it is based on a formula that Roads Service operates across all its divisions. I have visited the Strangford constituency with Mr McCarthy and other Members from the area, and I appreciate the difficulties that they face. I have visited many constituencies, and it is no pleasure to report that most are experiencing similar issues. We have attempted to allocate money as fairly as possible, but, ultimately, our limited resources mean that only a limited amount of work can be done.

Trevor Clarke (DUP, South Antrim)

4. asked the Minister for Regional Development whether there are enough salt and grit reserves remaining for the winter, given the recent and prolonged cold spell. (AQO 737/11)

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

My Department’s Roads Service has advised that, as part of its preseason preparation, salt barns, which are strategically placed in depots throughout the North, were filled to capacity.

The salt reserve of around 65,000 tonnes is more than enough to treat scheduled roads during a typical winter. That said, Roads Service has advised that approximately 40,000 tonnes of that reserve has been used in the two months so far this winter. The length of time that those reserves will last is dependent on the severity of the weather during the remainder of the winter period. However, Roads Service has advised that arrangements are in place to replenish the depleted salt stocks.

Trevor Clarke (DUP, South Antrim)

I thank the Minister for his answer. The mild spell since the bad period that we had for a couple of weeks will provide ample time to replenish those grit piles. Will the Minister give any consideration to other roads whose residents could go to Roads Service and remove some of that salt where there has been a difficulty in the past?

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

The current spell of weather allows an opportunity to replenish salt stocks, and that is happening. It happened last winter. Although the weather was not as severe early on last winter, there was a cold spell followed by a milder spell during which stock piles were filled up again. Roads Service had enough salt to get through last winter, and the Member will remember that, in the early part of this year, we had a very prolonged cold spell.

The Member asked about the replenishment of grit piles. There are, as I said, some 39,000 grit piles around rural roads. I know from my own experience that many of them will have been used up over the past couple of weeks, and Roads Service will get around to trying to replace those. However, I advise the Member to contact his local office if grit piles in specific areas need to be replenished.

Fra McCann (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

If we find ourselves in the midst of another bout of severe weather, will the Department increase the frequency of road salting?

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

During the recent spell of cold weather, approximately 300 departmental staff were out treating the roads almost 24/7. Given the reports from other places, including Scotland, other parts of Britain and the South, most people will agree that Roads Service did a good job of keeping the main networks open and of keeping traffic flowing. Those were very difficult times. We all experienced that last Monday evening when we tried to get home from here. The severity of such weather poses a major challenge to Roads Service personnel, but the intention is to keep that service going. As I say, Roads Service will spend this period replenishing stocks and placing grit piles and filling salt boxes wherever it can. The frequency with which staff go onto the roads is determined by the weather, the weather forecast and the conditions.

Ken Robinson (UUP, East Antrim)

I congratulate the roads staff who have been out in all weathers and in very difficult circumstances. They will never please everybody, but they have put up a very positive show this time round. What positive lessons has the Minister learned while addressing the recent cold snap, given that another one will perhaps follow towards the end of this week?

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

I thank the Member for his remarks about Roads Service, whose people have almost seemed to act as another emergency service during the severe weather and have gone out in dangerous driving conditions to try to keep the networks open. Sometimes, I hear critical voices only. That is understandable if people are frustrated, trapped in their homes or have difficulty accessing work or school.

The Member asked what lessons have been learned. Different issues arise year-on-year. In previous years, rural schools had difficulties remaining open, and we amended the winter service policy to ensure that rural schools could contact Roads Service and receive prompt gritting services. That seems to have had a positive effect on schools that have a history of difficulty. Earlier this year and during the recent cold spell, the issue of who is responsible for footpaths has arisen. We have been very proactive all year, not just in the past number of weeks. The engagement with NILGA started very early in the year, and draft agreements were put in place as far back as May. Different elements are thrown up year-on-year, and Roads Service will constantly re-evaluate the service that it provides, its engagement with others and how to get the best possible service to keep people moving during the winter.

Claire McGill (Sinn Féin, West Tyrone)

6. asked the Minister for Regional Development what progress has been made in relation to water mains connections in rural areas. (AQO 739/11)

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

I have undertaken a review of the policy on the provision of financial assistance to properties that are not served by a water main. Following the review, I issued a consultation document on 1 November for a period of 14 weeks until 4 February 2011. The aim of the review was to consider ways in which the Department for Regional Development (DRD) could provide financial assistance to enable householders in areas where no water main is near their homes to get a mains extension or access some other wholesome water supply. The review considered the risks, costs and benefits of four options: maintaining the existing level of financial assistance; substantially increasing the level of financial assistance; providing a grant to NI Water to provide a mains connection to individual households or groups of properties; and introducing a grant for the construction of a private bore well.

Claire McGill (Sinn Féin, West Tyrone)

Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. I thank the Minister for his response, and I welcome the work that has been done thus far on the matter. There are still people in my area who do not have a mains water supply and who want it. What would it cost to provide a mains connection to residents in rural areas who want that and do not have it?

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

I agree with the Member that it is deplorable that, in this day and age, so many properties are not connected to a mains water supply. That is why I undertook a survey to ascertain how many properties are in the position of wanting access to a mains water supply and to try to provide some costing for that. It depends on how many properties would take up any offer, on whether properties could be grouped together and on what the construction costs might be. Some estimates were in the region of £50 million, which would make it very challenging for the Executive to move forward with it. That is why we put out for consultation the option for grant-aided bore wells. We will receive feedback from the consultation in February, and that will allow the Executive to consider further the action that they can take.

Ian McCrea (DUP, Mid Ulster)

The Minister will be aware that there is now a thaw after the freeze in the country over the past number of weeks. Will he give an assurance that Northern Ireland Water will look sympathetically at the cases of people who live in rural areas, such as farmers, whose pipes may burst and who will lose water unknowingly? Will he ensure that those people do not receive large bills?

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

Even last night, there were still hard frosts, but, when the cold period ended and the thaw started, NIW issued a press release advising people to check pipeworks to ensure that there are no burst pipes. The Member is correct that burst pipes are more than likely at this time. I will ask NIW to consider the issue of farmers, particularly in the cases of people who have rural and isolated water supplies to drinking troughs, and so on, in outlying farms. In the first instance, rather than getting into the question of who will deal with the problem, we should try to encourage people to check any water supplies to ensure that there are no bursts. In that way, if people find that there are bursts, we can stop the water supply and ensure that they are not metered for that and that they get the burst fixed as quickly as possible.

Thomas Burns (Social Democratic and Labour Party, South Antrim)

Does the Minister agree that everyone has a basic right to a mains water supply? Does he believe that the current confusion over the stature and future of Northern Ireland Water is affecting the delivery of that service?

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

I am not sure that having a mains water supply is a right. We may consider it to be a right, but whether it is enshrined in any legislation is another issue. I assure the Member that the issues in NIW have not had any impact on our carrying out our research into what is required. If the Executive were minded to cover the cost of connecting everyone to a mains water supply, I am sure that NIW could plan and deal with the provision of that.

Robert Coulter (UUP, North Antrim)

7. asked the Minister for Regional Development how much of the 2010-11 budget has been allocated for the structural maintenance of roads. (AQO 740/11)

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

Roads Service has advised that the structural maintenance allocation for 2010-11 is approximately £71 million. However, that figure may change because of in-year adjustments and any end-of-year allocations that my Department receives.

Robert Coulter (UUP, North Antrim)

I thank the Minister for his answer. Will he provide an update on the Department’s recent capital bid for roads structural maintenance? Does he believe that the Executive are meeting his Department’s needs?

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

In response to an earlier question, I said that it is quite clear that the structural maintenance budget is not sufficient for what is required to provide proper structural maintenance for the roads, and I have advocated that for some time.

That has been the case for a long number of years. Roads Service bids for the full amount that it requires and is allocated resources. Quite often, throughout the year, that is topped up with money from monitoring rounds. However, given that Departments are spending much better than they were, the money coming back to Roads Service at the end of the year has been reduced.

Under the December monitoring round, we have made a bid for money for this year, but that will have to compete with all other bids. Given the particular problems that there have been on the roads, we will try to find adequate resources to do the best that we can. I noticed that the Finance Minister, in a statement he made locally, said that DRD needed to be more inventive in dealing with roads, so I will seek for him to be inventive when it comes to allocating money in the December monitoring round.

(Mr Deputy Speaker [Mr McClarty] in the Chair)

Private Members’ Business

David McClarty (UUP, East Londonderry)

The Business Committee has agreed to allow up to one hour and 30 minutes for the debate. The proposer of the motion will have 10 minutes in which to propose the motion and 10 minutes in which to make a winding-up speech. All other Members who wish to speak will have five minutes.

Jim Wells (DUP, South Down)

I beg to move

That this Assembly calls on the Minister of Health, Social Services and Public Safety to fund hospice services in line with the funding provided for such services by the Scottish Government.

Mr Deputy Speaker, they say that the Maze prison is a hard place to get out of, but I am finding it extremely hard to get out of this Building today. The reason for my concern is that I have a daughter getting married tomorrow, and I should not be here at all. However, I am standing here with several stone of guilt on my shoulders. As the rest of the family make preparations, I am standing here. I make those comments because it is normally expected that the proposer of a motion will remain in the Chamber throughout the debate. If I remain, there will be a wedding tomorrow, but there will also be a divorce. Therefore, on this occasion and this occasion only, I have to beg the indulgence of the House and hope that the Minister does not feel that I am slighting him. The situation is not of my making; I was expecting the debate to come up not at this time but before Question Time. I beg the indulgence of the House as I commit the mortal sin of leaving before the end of the debate. I hope that Members will understand.

This is a very important issue and one that resonates with all Members of the House. I move the motion on behalf of the entire Committee for Health, Social Services and Public Safety.

On Tuesday 30 November, the Committee met a range of stakeholders in the Long Gallery. Among those groups were representatives from the Northern Ireland Children’s Hospice. Those of us who met the group heard at first hand of the vital work that it carries out, often in the most distressing of circumstances. I am fortunate that Laura, my daughter who is getting married tomorrow, is in perfect health. However, I found it very distressing to hear from those who care for children with a shortened life expectancy or very severe conditions. We were all touched by what we heard in the Long Gallery.

We also heard directly from a parent and learned about the immense support that the Children’s Hospice affords to children, their parents and carers and to its nurses. Therefore, at the outset, on behalf of the Committee, I pay tribute to the tremendous work done not only by the Children’s Hospice but by all hospices in Northern Ireland. It is important that we name those: the adult hospice on the Somerton Road in Belfast; the Children’s Hospice; Foyle Hospice in Londonderry; Southern Area Hospice Services, which is on my doorstep in Newry; and the Marie Curie Hospice in Belfast. The hospices do a remarkable job, and we, as public representatives, need to be seen to support what they do. Unfortunately, we all know someone whose life has been affected by cancer or other serious illness. We all also know of stories of how that burden has been eased for people through support from organisations such as the hospices.

From a personal point of view, although my late mother-in-law was not in a hospice but in Antrim Area Hospital when she died, I know that the care and attention to detail that was shown by the nurses during her passing made her death so much easier for the entire family to come to terms with. What we saw was a textbook way of dealing with a very difficult situation. It must have been difficult for the staff, too. However, it was, if I can put it this way, a good death, a death without pain that took place while she was surrounded by family and with tremendous support from clinicians and medical staff. Equally, I know from the many testimonies of those whose parents and loved ones died in hospices that excellent care is provided.

I want to provide some background information today, particularly on the work of the Northern Ireland Children’s Hospice. It cares for children and young people with life-limiting and life-threatening conditions. It also supports their families and those who are close to them, and it provides care across Northern Ireland. There are more than 750 life-limited children and young people living in Northern Ireland. Life-limiting conditions include muscular dystrophy, genetic disorders such as Batten’s disease and life-threatening conditions such as cancer and heart disease. Those children have complex needs, often require 24-hour care, and many of them will die before they reach adulthood. The Northern Ireland Children’s Hospice cares for 250 of those children, so one third of life-limited children here are cared for by one institution.

The Northern Ireland Children’s Hospice provides respite and end-of-life care for those children, young people and their families at Horizon House and in their homes. Indeed, it is important to realise that the work of the Northern Ireland Children’s Hospice does not end at the door of the building. It sends qualified nurses to care for children in their home, which often gives their family and full-time carers a well-deserved break. It is the only children’s hospice in Northern Ireland, but it provides much-needed help and care. Children from birth to 18 years old are eligible for care there, and, as with all hospice services, there is no charge to the families. Last year, the Northern Ireland Children’s Hospice provided help to the 250 families and cared for the extended families throughout the children’s illnesses. Sadly, in many cases, it also had to provide care after the death of a child.

As many Members will know, the Children’s Hospice is also known as Horizon House and is situated in Newtownabbey. The Committee for Health, Social Services and Public Safety visited Horizon House on 15 November 2007 and held its weekly meeting there. Committee members had a tour of the building and were shown all the purpose-built children’s accommodation; the family rooms; art and music rooms; play areas, a multisensory room; and a hydrotherapy pool. It was a home-from-home environment, and all the Committee members were extremely impressed by the facilities.

It is important to emphasise that, despite what some have said recently, the Committee has not spent only 10 minutes on the important issue of hospices. The Committee visited the Northern Ireland Children’s Hospice in 2007, and, under my chairmanship, it visited the Northern Ireland Hospice on the Somerton Road. As the Chairperson of the Committee, I met representatives of the two Belfast hospices for one and a half hours, and the Committee met them during a Long Gallery event. Therefore, the Committee has devoted far more than 10 minutes to the issue, which is an indication of how seriously it takes it.

Hospice services are much wider than children’s hospices. As I said, adults are looked after across the Province, and, around this time last year, the Committee held its meeting in the Northern Ireland Hospice on the Somerton Road. I have no doubt that other Members will have visited hospices located in their constituency and will have seen at first hand the work that goes on to support patients and their families daily. I have visited Southern Area Hospice Services in Newry, and I see that Mr Brady, a Member for Newry and Armagh who will also be aware of the services provided by that hospice, is in the Chamber today. I was extremely impressed by the level of care, the level of funding that was required to run the facility and the sheer dedication of the fund-raising team. However, I was quite shocked that that team was able to raise so much money in what are far from adequate premises.

Top-class facilities and care cost money, and, historically, the Northern Ireland Children’s Hospice has had to find its own money through fund-raising and volunteering. The raising of money through donations year after year is no easy task, and it is testament to those who are involved directly with the Northern Ireland Children’s Hospice and to the members of the public across the country who put their hand in their pocket that we have a children’s hospice today. I read recently that hospices in Northern Ireland must raise £5·2 million between them each year to keep their doors open. That is a phenomenal amount of money that must be raised, and it equates to some £14,000 every day. It is an indication of the dedication of the staff and of the generosity of the people of Northern Ireland that they have been able to raise that money and keep the hospice movement going year on year.

Until 2008, the Northern Ireland Children’s Hospice received no government funding. In August 2009, the Health Minister announced that he would provide a grant of £538,000 each year out of the children’s services budget. However, that equates to only 18% of the running costs of the Children’s Hospice, which leaves a massive £2·5 million to be secured from voluntary donations. I understand from talking to the Children’s Hospice team that it is getting harder and harder to raise that money, and we do not have to go far to understand why. We are in a recession and, no matter how generous the people of Northern Ireland are, it is becoming more and more difficult to raise essential funds.

A very significant amount of money has to be raised, and it is a lot more than the Children’s Hospice’s counterparts in the rest of the UK have to find. In other places, the statutory sector provides around 30% of the funding for children’s hospice services. If the Children’s Hospice in Northern Ireland was treated in the same way as other children’s hospices in the rest of the UK, it would receive around £1 million from the state. Therefore, we have a shortfall of about £450,000.

The Minister is likely to say that we do not have the resources to fund hospices at a higher level. However, there are a few areas in which opportunities could be taken. Consultants’ annual bonuses of up to £75,000 cost us nearly £11 million a year. We discovered recently that premiums of up to £3,000 a year are paid to skilled craftsmen. Those premiums were brought in at a time when it was difficult to find skilled craftsmen, but that is no longer a problem. Ceasing that payment would provide money.

David McClarty (UUP, East Londonderry)

I ask the Member draw his remarks to a close.

Jim Wells (DUP, South Down)

Equally, there are areas of governance in which money could be found to fund what many in this Building believe is a very deserving cause.

Sue Ramsey (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. Before I start, I take the opportunity to wish the Chairperson’s daughter all the best for tomorrow. I hope that the Chairperson does not clear the room when he gets up to make his speech in the way that he sometimes clears the Chamber. He should not take it personally. Perhaps the key thing is that tomorrow’s speech will not be prepared.

I apologise for having to leave to go to a Committee meeting in the Senate Chamber, but I will be back towards the end of the debate. I will return.

I am delighted that the motion has been proposed for debate. As the Chairperson said, the Health Committee, as a representative body, met the hospice movement a number of times. We have also met the hospice movement as individual MLAs. At the last event, I was privileged to be part of the delegation that met the Children’s Hospice representatives, including the parent of a child who uses said services. It was humbling to be part of that and to listen to that parent speaking about what the hospice movement means to him, his wife, the rest of the family and, indeed, the child who uses it. That was a moving experience, because we are talking about end-of-life care for people in our communities.

When I raised the issue at the Health Committee, we had a bit of discussion about it. Everyone is well aware of the good work that the hospice movement does daily across the constituencies. We wanted to get the wording of the motion right, because we did not want it to be seen as a battle. We want to move the issue forward, and I am glad that we are discussing it just before the Christmas recess.

Last week, I had the pleasure of handing over hampers to the Children’s Hospice. A family member donates hampers every year and wanted to give them to the Children’s Hospice this year. That may not seem a big gesture, but the hospice was delighted because it can give the hampers to families or ballot them in its shops. It is another way for the Children’s Hospice to generate money. This week, we will switch on a Christmas tree light in my office to try to raise money for the Children’s Hospice. Every small bit of money that is raised makes a big difference.

Like the Chairperson, I take the opportunity to pay tribute not only to the patients and families but to the staff and volunteers of the hospice movement for the work that they do daily. They go above and beyond the call of duty and become involved in fund-raising and all sorts of activities to bring in much-needed resources for the hospice movement to make it easier for families.

I was part of the delegation that went to the Children’s Hospice about 18 months ago. Again, that was a very humbling experience. What struck me was that, although there are children there who are suffering from life-threatening illnesses, the Children’s Hospice adopted a holistic approach. We always talk about needing a holistic approach to various issues. I liked the fact that the Children’s Hospice took on board the needs of siblings of patients and recognised that siblings who do not have life-threatening illnesses were part of the issue. Time was made for them, and it was ensured that siblings were brought along to anything that was arranged for patients. That was a step in the right direction and did not allow any other issue to come into play. If we can do anything to help the hospice movement, we need to look at doing so.

As the Chairperson said, there was no funding until 2008. The Minister, to his credit, stepped in and gave as much funding as he could at the time. In the current economic climate, it is harder to raise much-needed funds through charitable donations or sponsorship, and the Children’s Hospice is crying out for help. I ask the Minister to look at the funding issue again. Let us bring some good news at this time of the year to the hospice movement. I mean no disrespect to the Minister, but let us show those who run the hospice movement that Scrooge is from a fairy story. Let us show them that Santa McGimpsey is listening to their concerns and to their Christmas wishes.

David McClarty (UUP, East Londonderry)

The Member should draw her remarks to a close.

Sue Ramsey (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

Let us show that there is a miracle on the Stormont Mile and see what money is there for the hospice.

John McCallister (UUP, South Down)

I concur with other Members who have spoken. I begin by paying tribute to all who are involved in the hospice movement, whether they raise funds, provide some of the care, volunteer on reception, give up their time or offer their talents in any way to help out.

Unfortunately, I, like many in the Assembly, have had direct experience of the work of the hospice movement. My father passed away in the Southern Area Hospice in Newry. The care that he received in his final few weeks was second to none and very different from that provided in a hospital setting. Hospitals are so busy, but hospices allow patients and their families to spend time together and provide care and individual attention at a very difficult time. That service meant a great deal to my family, as I am sure it has to many others in the House who have had similar experiences.

The hospice service, which provides palliative care that focuses on the individual and is so different from a hospital setting, is something that we have to strive to protect, because that is such a vulnerable time for families. As Ms Ramsey mentioned, where you have to deal with siblings, particularly in the Children’s Hospice setting, keep the focus on them and provide support for the whole family, the holistic approach of the hospice has to be recognised. I, too, had the privilege of going to an event in the Long Gallery with representatives of the Children’s Hospice.

I commend the Minister for doing as much as he has been able to do to provide funding for those vital services. As well as that, he has developed the Living Matters, Dying Matters strategy, which has indentified palliative and end-of-life care as a continuum of care that can evolve as a person’s condition progresses. The strategy provides a vision and direction for service planning and delivery for the next five years. Indeed, all 25 recommendations that emanated from the strategy have been incorporated into the Department’s action plan. Importantly, the strategy also recognises that two thirds of people in Northern Ireland would benefit from palliative and end-of-life care prior to and during their last year.

Some positive things are happening in our health sector that we must cherish and build on. As people approach the end of their life, it is a difficult, stressful time for any family. We need to support them in whatever way we can, and that is why there is support for the motion.

We have to recognise Health Service resources, and that is why I am proud to have been involved in calling for health and social care to be protected in the Budget negotiations. I will continue to call for that, because that is when we can identify the issues that we want to prioritise. However, we can do that only if health and social care are properly funded.

Tommy Gallagher (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

We are all aware of the difficulties for individuals and families who have to deal with sickness in the Christmas season. However, it is particularly difficult for families that have a member who needs end-of-life care in this season. I pay tribute to the hospice and palliative care teams that show such wonderful commitment and provide excellent care to patients not only at Christmas time but throughout the year everywhere in Northern Ireland. The Chairperson of the Committee identified particular hospices.

That care extends beyond hospices. We do not have a hospice in Fermanagh, for example, at the western tip of Northern Ireland. However, wonderful palliative care teams are organised through the Northern Ireland Hospice. They go to people’s homes and make sure that they are well cared for and as comfortable as possible. I pay tribute to them for their outstanding work.

The SDLP supports the motion and wants to see more funding made available for our hospices and for hospice care. The motion refers to the situation in Scotland. The Scottish Executive have an expectation that National Health Service boards fund 50% of the annual running costs of hospices. An audit in 2008 on palliative care services noted that there was significant variation across Scotland in the availability of specialist palliative care and how easily patients with complex needs could access that care. I hope that hospice care will be developed evenly in Northern Ireland, regardless of where people live. It is important that all patients across the North, particularly those in remote and rural areas, do not suffer a variation of provision, which seems to have been identified in that 2008 audit in Scotland.

The Minister needs to look at further funding under a structured format that will allow for better financial security for hospices here. My colleague Pat Ramsey asked earlier about hospice funding. The Minister answered that health and social service boards, acting as health commissioners, provided 50% of the funding per adult cared for in Northern Ireland. On the other hand, Northern Ireland Hospice claims that the funding that it receives equates to 40%. Therefore, that issue needs to be ironed out. The funding improvements that the Department has made are welcome, but, as the correspondence from the Department and the hospice states, there appears to be a gap, and it must be addressed.

In relation to children’s care, the hospice in Belfast was mentioned. It does such good work at a difficult time for children, their parents and their wider family. In Fermanagh, a new children’s hospice is due to open in 2011. There have already been very successful fund-raising initiatives there, and people have shown great commitment to it. Therefore, I hope that, when it opens, there will, as a result of today’s debate, be signs of more structured funding arrangements for all hospice care in Northern Ireland.

Kieran Deeny (Independent, West Tyrone)

I am delighted to take part in this important debate. Before I forget, I want to say that I have had the privilege of visiting the Children’s Hospice and the adult hospice as a member of the Health Committee. As was mentioned, palliative care is not just about providing buildings. As Tommy said, we have a wonderful palliative care team in our area, which is led by Dr Frances Robinson, who is a consultant colleague of mine, and a senior nurse, Emma King. They provide wonderful care to the patients whom we cannot cure.

The World Health Organization defines palliative care as:

“The active total care of patients whose disease is not responsive to curative treatment.”

On the issue of cure and care, when I was making notes this morning, I thought that I would mention a lecture on medical ethics that I attended more than 30 years ago, just before I qualified as a doctor. The lecturer told us that, although we young doctors might be confident that we would cure everyone, unfortunately, certain diseases could not be cured. He said that, in those instances, we had to take the letter “u” out of the word “cure”, replace it with an “a” and care for our patients. Those words have stuck with me to this day. I have had a lot of experience of dealing with people whom we cannot cure but for whom we can care. As a developed country in the twenty-first century, we owe it to terminally ill patients in Northern Ireland to provide them with the best health and social care that we can.

At the start of the year, the Minister was involved in the end-of-life strategy, Living Matters, Dying Matters. He rightly stated:

“I am committed to ensuring that the people of Northern Ireland have access to high quality health and social care at all stages of their lives.”

The important word in that statement is “all”. That means that there should, for example, be patient and family choice. It has been mentioned already that patients often prefer to be looked after at home, in a hospice or in a care home that can provide the required standard and quality of palliative end-of-life care.

Recently, I had a concern about Marie Curie nursing in my area. A single parent, who was younger than me, was terminally ill with a brain tumour. He had two children, and he could not return home from hospital because his Marie Curie care had been cut from five nights to two. I wrote to the chief executive of the Western Trust, and she reinstated that care. I commend her for that. However, the concern remains that Marie Curie nurses are being cut in the Western Trust. That is a concern because terminally ill patients need that type of support at home.

Each patient with end-of-life care needs should have a key worker. Every child and family should have an agreed transfer plan to adult services in both hospital and community services, with no loss of necessary services.

Access to specialist palliative care, advice and support should be available 24/7. The sad reality is that there is no palliative care strategy for children in Northern Ireland. That compares unfavourably with other countries. It cannot continue.

It has been mentioned that public funding for the Children’s Hospice covers only 18% of its costs. The funding should be 30%, which is the target throughout the UK. I believe that it is the case in England. Figures have been mentioned. I read that £3 million is needed. However, only £500,000 is provided. That means that just one sixth of the required funding is provided by government. As a result, the Children’s Hospice is under threat. The number of beds has been reduced from eight to six. As I mentioned, home support has already decreased.

Sadly, our hospices, including the Children’s Hospice, and palliative care have become dependent on charities, the voluntary sector and, indeed, donations. That is a worrying development in the grave financial situation that we now live in.

David McClarty (UUP, East Londonderry)

The Member must draw his remarks to a close.

Kieran Deeny (Independent, West Tyrone)

I am coming to a close, Mr Deputy Speaker.

A policy framework and dedicated funding are needed. To raise the Department’s contribution from 18% to 30% is a small increase, given the overall health budget. I support the motion.

Alex Easton (DUP, North Down)

I support the motion as an MLA and a member of the Health Committee. I pay tribute to all those who work as nurses and volunteers for the many charities that provide hospice care. Mr McCallister referred to his father receiving care; my grandmother also received care at the Marie Curie centre on the Knock Road. The nursing that she got there was fantastic. The building was extremely peaceful and spacious. Everybody was kind and the surroundings were beautiful. My grandmother wanted to pass away at home. She was fortunate enough to get her wish. She would not have got that wish had it not been possible for her to have been cared for at home by Marie Curie nurses. I want to pay tribute to them.

In my role as a member of the Health Committee, I have recently had the pleasure of meeting different hospice groups. The Committee has made several visits to discuss the funding crisis in recent times. It has also visited the Children’s Hospice on a couple of occasions during the past several years. Those charities do a tremendous job to provide care to terminally ill adults and children and to offer support to their families and friends. I cannot say enough to express my gratitude to them for providing such great service, care and support.

More funding is required for hospices in Northern Ireland. They fill a gap in services that are not provided by the NHS. The NHS has come to rely on hospices as terminally ill patients are referred to them for care, which demonstrates how well they are thought of by the Health Service. Hospices rely on charity and donations from the general public. They receive some funding from the Health Minister, for which I want to thank him. The Northern Ireland Children’s Hospice receives around £500,000 from the Health Service. Its management has suggested that it needs around £5 million to keep the hospice going.

In general, as money gets tight, people cannot afford to give as much to charity. In Northern Ireland, 82% of funding for hospices has to be raised daily from the general public, which equates to around £14,000 per day for the children’s and adults’ hospices. On the mainland, 30% of hospice funding comes from government, compared with 18% in Northern Ireland.

Given that the NHS relies on the hospices continuing their sterling work, I ask the Minister whether there is any possible way to find them some more funding. I understand that we are in a difficult climate. That is why I supported the Minister’s colleagues in the Health Committee over the budget. Hospices can provide excellent services if they receive adequate funding. Therefore, it makes sense to give them a little more money to help them out.

As far as the health budget is concerned, £5 million pounds is a drop in the ocean, but I believe that the children’s and adults’ hospices are worthwhile causes. I plead with the Minister to see what he can do to help with that funding.

Hospices, given their financial state, are having to curtail their services. That is disturbing and, ultimately, will affect those who are seriously ill. We need to act, and I ask the Health Minister to do so if he can. I call on him to back the motion and to help to find funding in this difficult financial period.