Northern Ireland Assembly, 31 January 2011

344 contributions from 68 members. The official report.

Assembly Business

Fred Cobain (UUP, Belfast North)

I beg to move

That Standing Orders 10(2) to 10(4) be suspended for 31 January 2011.

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

Before I put the Question, I remind Members that the motion requires cross-community support.

Question put and agreed to.

Resolved (with cross-community support):

That Standing Orders 10(2) to10(4) be suspended for 31 January 2011.

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

As the motion has been agreed, today’s sitting may go beyond 7.00 pm, if required.

Ministerial Statement

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

I have received notice from the First Minister and the deputy First Minister that the deputy First Minister wishes to make a statement to the House.

Martin McGuinness (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

In compliance with section 52C(2) of the Northern Ireland Act 1998 we wish to make the following statement on the eleventh meeting of the North/South Ministerial Council (NSMC) in plenary format, which was held in the NSMC joint secretariat offices in Armagh on Friday 21 January 2011. The Executive Ministers who attended the meeting have approved this report, and we make it on their behalf.

Our delegation was led by the First Minister, Peter Robinson MLA and me, and we chaired the meeting. In addition, the following Executive Ministers were in attendance: Sammy Wilson, Minister of Finance and Personnel; Michelle Gildernew, Minister of Agriculture and Rural Development; Nelson McCausland, Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure; Caitríona Ruane, Minister of Education; Danny Kennedy, Minister for Employment and Learning; Arlene Foster, Minister of Enterprise, Trade and Investment; David Ford, Minister of Justice; Conor Murphy, Minister for Regional Development; Alex Attwood, Minister for Social Development; and the junior Ministers in the Office of the First Minister and deputy First Minister (OFMDFM), Robin Newton and Gerry Kelly.

The Irish Government delegation was led by the Taoiseach, Brian Cowen TD. The following Irish Government Ministers were also in attendance: Mary Coughlan TD, Tánaiste and Minister for Education and Skills and Minister for Health and Children; Mary Hanafin TD, Minister for Tourism, Culture and Sport and Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Innovation; Eamon Ryan TD, Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources; Brendan Smith TD, Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Food and Minister for Justice and Law Reform; and Pat Carey TD, Minister for Community, Equality and Gaeltacht Affairs and Minister for Transport.

During the meeting, we discussed a range of common challenges and shared views on the economy, the banks and the National Asset Management Agency (NAMA). It was noted that some £3·35 billion of Northern assets have now been acquired by NAMA. The constraints on budgets in both jurisdictions were recognised, and we welcomed the ongoing discussions between the two Finance Ministers to identify potential cost savings through co-operation and sharing. There was a desire to maximise access to EU funding and resources.

The serious implications for local employment arising from problems in the Quinn Group were discussed. It was recognised that it will be important to maintain cross-party and cross-border co-operation on that issue.

Executive Ministers raised concerns that food quality marks and campaigns in the South to promote, in particular, dairy products could be perceived as protectionist and may adversely impact on cross-border trade.

We welcomed the continued commitment by the Irish Government to funding for the A5 and A8 road projects. The Council renewed its support for the development of a satellite radiotherapy service at Altnagelvin, and Ministers agreed to consider the possibility of further support for the City of Derry Airport.

In discussion on challenges posed by the weather, flooding and influenza, we agreed that it would be important to build on existing co-operation in emergency planning.

Ministers noted a progress report on the 10 NSMC meetings that have been held since the last plenary meeting in July 2010 and welcomed the mutually beneficial co-operation taken forward, some of which I will now outline.

At the trade and business development meeting in November 2010, the EU Commissioner for Research, Innovation and Science, Máire Geoghegan-Quinn, offered Ministers her continuing support for their work in promoting the innovation agenda.

InterTradeIreland will dedicate resources specifically to increase cross-border collaborative participation in the seventh framework programme for research and technological development, FP7.

The new dual carriageway close to Newry was opened in July 2010, and development work has continued on the A5 — the north-west gateway to Aughnacloy — and the A8, from Belfast to Larne. Those developments, along with progress already made in the overall motorway network in Ireland, will ensure greater road connectivity across the island.

Provisional figures indicate significant reductions in the number of road deaths in both jurisdictions. Initiatives taken forward with the GAA and the Young Farmers’ Clubs of Ulster have assisted in the delivery of road safety messages.

The innovative North/South child protection hub was launched in November 2010, and the child protection communication strategy and communiqué, which will promote public awareness and assist everyone in their duty to safeguard children, was also launched.

Progress has continued on the all-island action plan on suicide prevention, the establishment of the new media monitoring service here and the completion of the all-island evaluation of applied suicide intervention skills training. A new action, called “Suicide and the economic situation”, has been included in the action plan.

The development of a new satellite radiotherapy centre at Altnagelvin Area Hospital, to which the Irish Government have agreed to provide a capital and revenue contribution, is continuing. Approximately one third of patients who will attend the Altnagelvin centre will be from Donegal and the surrounding areas. The Executive’s Finance Minister, in his statement to the Assembly on the Executive’s draft Budget, indicated that that key project will be able to proceed.

The Peace III programme has approved 126 projects, worth €207 million, and the INTERREG IVa programme has approved 49 projects, worth €153 million. Total expenditure on both programmes to date is €95·15 million, significantly above the cumulative target to the end of 2010.

A 2010-11 action plan for the all-island animal health and welfare strategy and a work programme to take a joint strategic approach to plant health and pesticides have been put in place. There has been ongoing co-operation in dealing with a number of outbreaks of disease in Japanese larch forests.

The rural enabler project, with approved funding of £2·7 million under the Peace III programme, was endorsed by Ministers.

A comprehensive and collaborative programme of work has been developed, focusing on the early and continuing professional development of Irish-medium teachers. Collaborative work is also continuing on literacy and numeracy. A joint report by the two education inspectorates entitled ‘How to Promote Literacy and Numeracy in our Schools’ was published in December 2010.

Illegally dumped waste at sites in Slattinagh in Fermanagh and Trillick in County Tyrone has been removed. Following an evaluation, work will commence on the remaining 15 sites. Joint concerted enforcement actions to target shipments of waste are ongoing. The Environmental Protection Agency and the NI Environment Agency are collaborating with a view to accessing funding for priority environmental research under the seventh framework, INTERREG and LIFE+ programmes. The restoration of the Royal canal to reconnect it to the Shannon has been completed. A preferred route for the Clones to upper Lough Erne section of the Ulster canal has also been identified.

In a discussion on child protection, there was an exchange of views and experience of dealing with historical institutional abuse. Collaboration in the risk assessment and management of sex offenders was discussed. The Council also noted that the joint secretariat had identified a number of potential new emerging cross-border mobility issues. The joint secretariat will examine those issues in greater depth in consultation with relevant Departments, agencies and other bodies. A progress report will be presented to the next NSMC institutional meeting. The Border People website has been linked to NI Direct and Citizens Information.

The Council noted progress to date on the A5 and A8 projects, approved the project milestones and payment schedule and agreed to consider a further progress report at the next NSMC plenary.

The Council noted that the consultation with relevant Ministers in both jurisdictions on all aspects of the St Andrews Agreement review is nearing completion. Taking account of the outcome of that consultation, the review group will prepare a report for consideration by the NSMC at its plenary meeting in June 2011.

The Council noted the background and recent developments on a North/South consultative forum and agreed to advance the issue at its June 2011 plenary. The NSMC noted the communiqué issued by the Speaker of the Northern Ireland Assembly and the Ceann Comhairle of Dáil Éireann following a North/South parliamentary forum conference in Newcastle on 7 and 8 October 2010. The Council approved a schedule of future NSMC meetings.

Tom Elliott (UUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

I thank the deputy First Minister for his statement. One of the significant employment matters in Northern Ireland and the Republic relates to the Quinn Insurance group. Was that discussed at the North/South meeting? If so, is there any information to report, particularly regarding the bids and proposals that are with the administrator? Have the Northern Ireland Executive made any political representation to the administrator?

Martin McGuinness (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

That subject came up in the course of the meeting. We are all acutely aware of the danger to jobs in the border areas, in both County Monaghan and County Fermanagh. We all absolutely agree that the loss of those jobs would be a devastating blow for the entire community in that area. The administrator is involved in ongoing discussions, and there is interest in the group from several sources. Our concern is to not to interfere in that process but, at the same time, to be involved in discussions with the Dublin Administration about how we can collectively face up to the challenges posed by a very real threat to the economy of that region.

The details of the administrator’s ongoing work are sensitive. We do not wish to interfere in that work except to say that the issue is being given attention. We understand that, if the hugely significant employment in that region were lost, it would be pretty devastating to the region. It is a work in progress. Ongoing meetings are taking place, North and South, to try to get a successful outcome. At this stage, I think that we are all of the view that there is going to be pain whatever the outcome. It is, therefore, a matter of how we can minimise job losses.

Jimmy Spratt (DUP, Belfast South)

I thank the deputy First Minister for his statement. Will he confirm that the Irish Government have proposed efficiency savings in excess of the cumulative 3% year-on-year savings agreed for the North/South implementation bodies? Will he indicate the level of the new cuts?

Martin McGuinness (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

At the NSMC plenary meeting, we recognised that there are constraints on the Budgets of both jurisdictions and that it is sensible to explore opportunities to save money through mutually beneficial co-operation. We welcome the ongoing discussions between Sammy Wilson and Brian Lenihan on the issue, and I understand that officials from the two Finance Departments will be working together to examine the potential for budgetary savings in greater detail. There will be further discussions about that at the plenary meeting in June.

On 23 July 2010, the Department of Finance and Personnel and the Department of Finance issued guidance to sponsored Departments to inform the preparation of the 2011-13 corporate plans and the 2011 business plans for the bodies. That guidance specified that further minimum cash-releasing efficiency savings of 3% in 2011, cumulating to 9% over the 2012-13 period, are required. It also included a proviso that there may be a review of those efficiency guidelines for 2012-13 to take account of the developing Budget process in both jurisdictions.

Following the Irish Government’s 2011 Budget announcement, the Taoiseach wrote to us reiterating his Government’s commitment to North/South co-operation. He stated that there may be scope for savings in excess of 3% in some areas and stressed the importance of making joint decisions about the bodies’ budgets. We agree with the Taoiseach that the North/South bodies, like all other public bodies, must ensure efficiency. However, it will be important that they have sufficient resources to deliver on their mandates.

Martina Anderson (Sinn Féin, Foyle)

Go raibh míle maith agat. I thank the Minister for his statement. I note that the Minister for Social Development is on record as saying that he will canvass for the Irish Labour Party in the election in the Twenty-six Counties. Some members of his party oppose the building of the A5 linkage between Derry and Dublin. Will the Minister outline the status of the A5 project and of the radiotherapy unit at Altnagelvin, given that the Tory UUP Health Minister is refusing to fund its running costs?

Martin McGuinness (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

I know that the issue is very close to the heart of the Ulster Unionist Party leader, too. At the plenary meeting, we welcomed the very good progress that has been made on the A5 and the A8. The Taoiseach reaffirmed his commitment to those road projects and the related funding. The Council noted that development work has been continuing on the A5 project with the key milestone of the publication of draft Orders being met in November 2010. The Council agreed the A5 project milestones and payment schedule. Those road developments, along with the progress made in the overall motorway network in Ireland, will ensure greater road connectivity across the island.

The issue is also close to the hearts of many people in the north-west, particularly when we are hoping to attract inward investment and tourism. As we all know, there is a feeling in the north-west that the region’s infrastructure has been neglected. It is vital that our roads are up to standard. That project is obviously very important not just for the north-west but for the road network throughout the island. Encouraging tourists to come here is hugely important. We go forward on the basis that the commitments made by the Irish Government, as represented by Brian Cowen at the NSMC meeting, will be kept by any incoming Administration, whatever their complexion.

The radiotherapy centre at Altnagelvin is a hugely important issue for people’s health. I will not engage in controversy on the issue except to say that the Health Minister has to make decisions about the project in the time ahead. It is a key project for the North/South Ministerial Council and for the health of our people in Donegal, Derry and the surrounding areas, and it is very important that it goes ahead. Essentially, it represents a challenge for the Health Minister. There is not much point in building a centre if it is not going to be used. I am working on the basis that he will build the centre and that the revenue will be available to ensure that the health needs of our people are met.

Tommy Gallagher (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

I welcome the Minister’s state­ment, particularly on co-operation in relation to the Quinn Group. However, does he accept that Quinn Insurance, which is based at Enniskillen and Cavan, will have its future decided in the coming weeks, and will he assure the House that the two Governments, at prime ministerial level, will continue to do everything possible on a weekly basis to save those jobs and avoid the social and economic devastation that will happen to the region should job losses occur?

Martin McGuinness (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

I give that assurance. The matter was discussed at recent Executive meetings, and Ministers have engaged in debate about what more can be done to ensure the protection of those jobs, which are so vital to County Fermanagh and County Monaghan. There is no difficulty with our continuing to engage with the Irish Government to see what can be done. That item was also discussed at the meeting of the North/South Ministerial Council; so, given the fact that it has been discussed at recent Executive meetings and at the NSMC, I can give an assurance that we will continue to do our level best to protect those jobs.

People are conscious that we appear to be in a time of change in the political situation down South. There will be a general election within a couple of weeks, and a Government of whatever hue will be formed. I presume that the incoming Administration will regard the protection of jobs in Monaghan and Fermanagh as a vital issue for them.

Stephen Farry (Alliance, North Down)

I thank the deputy First Minister for his statement. It must have been a very interesting meeting; it is surely noteworthy when the Northern Government are viewed as more stable than the Southern Government.

The Minister’s statement referred to:

“ongoing discussions between the two Finance Ministers to identify the potential cost savings through co-operation and sharing.”

Will the deputy First Minister expand on that and assure the House that those discussions will be more than simply lip service? Will he assure Members that there will be a genuine scoping exercise in both jurisdictions to see where we can do things on a shared basis and that we will try to factor any conclusions into our forthcoming Budget?

Martin McGuinness (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

The Finance Ministers North and South are committed to working together where there is mutual benefit. That is a very encouraging position. I do not think that it is sensible to go into the detail of those discussions as they are ongoing, but there is a responsibility on all of us to consider what more can be done.

There has been controversy about the fact that the Department of Health, Social Services and Public Safety has had possession of propositions and proposals that those who investigated shared services for health North and South felt would enhance health provision for people in those jurisdictions. That information has not been made public, which has to be a source of concern. The information would be of benefit to our Finance Minister and to the Finance Minister from Dublin in their ongoing discussions to ensure that we challenge ourselves, without danger to anybody’s political aspirations or opinions, to see what could be done that is to the benefit of all our people, where there are real opportunities for cost savings. That goes right across the ambience of government, North and South. There are things that we can do that are to our mutual benefit without compromising anybody’s political beliefs or aspirations.

Jonathan Craig (DUP, Lagan Valley)

Will the deputy First Minister indicate how the interests of Northern Ireland are being protected when the Irish Government and NAMA are dealing with the debt levels in Northern Ireland?

Martin McGuinness (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

We are all very concerned about the economic situation, and the NAMA situation has been of tremendous concern to us. We are particularly concerned that there may be a fire sale, which would have a very destabilising effect on our economic circumstances in the North.

The main focus of discussion at the plenary meeting was on the economic challenges in both jurisdictions and the related issues of the banks and NAMA. We exchanged views on the potential for economic recovery and measures that we are taking to deal with the recession’s effects. We emphasised that a strong economy is in all our interests. The Taoiseach recognised that banking restructuring may have implications for us, and he was sympathetic to our concerns that possible downsizing of the banks may lead to job losses. He advised us that some £3·35 billion of Northern assets have now been acquired by NAMA but that figure may increase as the process rolls out.

In a discussion about the implications of NAMA, we outlined our concerns about employment, access to credit and communication difficulties with NAMA. The Taoiseach advised us that a Northern Ireland-based retired banker had been appointed to review credit refusals to ensure that those who sought credit got a fair hearing. He suggested that the Executive should meet NAMA to discuss those problems, and we intend to act on that suggestion.

The meeting recognised the important discussions on those matters that the two Finance Ministers have held, so we need to maintain our discussions and our co-operation with the Irish Government in these challenging times. No doubt we will have a further in-depth discussion at the next NSMC meeting in June.

Barry McElduff (Sinn Féin, West Tyrone)

Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. The most recent meeting of the Council noted potential new and emerging issues around cross-border mobility. Will the deputy First Minister provide greater detail on those discussions and how obstacles to cross-border mobility might be overcome, for example, in employment, finance and access to services?

Martin McGuinness (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

The plenary meeting considered a paper on cross-border mobility issues, and the joint secretariat has undertaken work. Arising from research and consultation, potential issues have been identified. Some of them are quite complex, and the joint secretariat has already had discussions about them with Departments, agencies and other relevant bodies.

A key area of concern appears to be taxation and welfare benefits in border areas. Although the Border People website is doing a good job of keeping people informed, there appears to be an issue with individuals accessing information that they need and with the processing of welfare benefit claims with a cross-border element. Concerns have also been raised about the quality and cost of the cross-border postal service, particularly by Consumer Focus Post. The postal service is not a devolved matter, so there is a limit to what we can do about that. However, as it has been raised as an issue with particular significance for consumers and cross-border trade, it is important for us to explore what can be done. The joint secretariat met Consumer Focus Post and InterTradeIreland, and InterTradeIreland agreed to include questions on the issue in its January 2011 business monitor, which surveys 1,000 businesses.

Concerns have also been raised about the cost of transferring money and the use of debit cards across the border. Ministers had previously noted that discussions with the main banking groups had led to the publication, for the first time, on the Border People website of a detailed comparative table of typical cross-border transaction charges. That area of the website is extremely popular, second only to the social welfare area.

(Mr Deputy Speaker [Mr McClarty] in the Chair)

To ensure that cross-border banking information held on the website is up to date, a review was completed last spring.

Wallace (DUP, Belfast East)

I thank the deputy First Minister for his statement. I note that the plenary meeting was held in the NSMC secretariat’s base in Armagh. Will the deputy First Minister confirm that the opening date for the BIC standing secretariat will be announced at the next British-Irish Council summit in June?

Martin McGuinness (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

The meeting was significant not only because it happened but because we officially opened the new NSMC building, which has been widely welcomed. At the plenary meeting, the First Minister and I, along with the Taoiseach, were pleased to open officially the new building in Armagh, and we all agreed that it was good that the joint secretariat now had a permanent base. The holding of the plenary meeting in the new building was an important milestone, and I pay tribute to all those involved in the project — some of whom are at the Assembly today — including the project team, the contractor, Armagh City and District Council and, of course, the NSMC joint secretariat staff.

The new accommodation has been fully operational since 19 April 2010, and, when practicable, NSMC meetings are held there. That represents a more cost-effective and efficient use of resources. Already, 13 NSMC meetings have been held there. The building is leased to the NSMC joint secretariat by Armagh City and District Council. Maintenance and running costs are the responsibility of the secretariat, and the total cost of the lease and the running costs are shared, on a 50:50 basis, with the Irish Government.

The design reflects the highest environmental and energy-saving standards, and it complements the existing architecture of the area. The building received the top environmental rating in the Building Research Establishment environmental assessment method (BREEAM). Recently, the new offices received the coveted William Keown access award, which recognises the fact that it is barrier free and user-friendly for everyone, including people with disabilities. In a joint venture with the NSMC joint secretariat, Armagh City and District Council recently commissioned a new piece of art for the atrium wall, which should be in place by the end of June.

BIC meetings are also vital. We all benefit greatly from talking to colleagues from different jurisdictions and from recognising that mutual benefits can be gained for us all. The work of putting in place the BIC secretariat continues and will, I hope, be concluded shortly.

Dolores Kelly (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Upper Bann)

I welcome the introduction of the cross-border mobility website. I am sure that it will be of some use in assisting the newly created sheriff of Northstead to find out about benefit entitlements in the Republic of Ireland.

My question is on the St Andrews Agreement review, the North/South Consultative Forum and the North/South Parliamentary Forum. How exactly will those points be actioned, given that Sinn Féin and the DUP have yet to agree a paper, through the working group on the Hillsborough agreement, on actions that have not yet been implemented faithfully?

Martin McGuinness (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

We all know that all those issues are works in progress. At the July 2010 NSMC plenary meeting, it was agreed that the recommendations of the expert advisers on the efficiency and value for money of existing North/South implementation bodies and Tourism Ireland be forwarded to Ministers whose Departments sponsor those bodies for their information and to seek their views.

We also noted that Departments have been tasked to provide views on the second and third terms of reference of the review. It is anticipated that, on receipt of responses to that request, the review group will move rapidly to conclude its deliberations, and it was agreed that the NSMC will consider at a future meeting the outcome of the consultation that is under way in both jurisdictions on the remaining terms of reference of the St Andrews Agreement review. At the plenary meeting on 21 January, we noted that the consultation with relevant Ministers in both jurisdictions on all aspects of the St Andrews Agreement review is near to completion.

Taking into account that consultation, the review group has been asked to prepare a report for consideration by the NSMC at its next plenary meeting in June 2011. All that is work in progress, and other Departments, not just the Office of the First Minister and deputy First Minister, are involved in it.

Francie Molloy (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

Go raibh maith agat. I thank the Minister for the statement. In view of the number of tragic deaths from suicide, can the Minister provide more detail about the all-island action plan, particularly its parts about suicide and the economic situation?

Martin McGuinness (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

That question comes in the aftermath of some sad news in recent days about a terrible situation where people have taken their own lives. That is absolutely of concern to all politicians, North and South, and to everybody in the Assembly who has had to deal with those matters in the course of the past number of months.

The joint secretaries’ progress report to the plenary outlined progress on the all-island action plan on suicide prevention. That action plan has been in place since 2005 and continues to develop as new actions are added and completed actions become embedded in mainstream practice. Progress to date includes the development of all-island public information campaigns, the extension of a delivered self-harm registry to sites in the North, and the evaluation of applied suicide intervention skills training. Recent achievements include the establishment of the new media monitoring service in the North, which incorporates learning from the headline service in Ireland.

The economic climate is leading to a rise in unemployment. That is of concern, as research indicates that unemployment is an increased risk factor for suicide and that a 1% increase in unemployment is met with a corresponding 0·8% increase in suicide rates. A new action on suicide and the economic situation has been added to the all-island action plan. Its aim is to ensure the sharing of information on interventions, including evaluation of specific initiatives, designed to mitigate the impact of unemployment and the economic downturn on individuals.

Trevor Clarke (DUP, South Antrim)

Can the deputy First Minister confirm that the agreement of this House is required to expand or to reduce the scope of the strand-two institutions?

Martin McGuinness (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

The rules and agreements are there and have been on display for quite some time, and as far back as 1998. It is very clear that, as we move forward with institutions of a North/South nature, the agreement of the Oireachtas and this House is required. Therefore, we all have to recognise that there are great benefits for all of us if we continue to work together and continue to challenge ourselves to put in place mutually beneficial processes that will bring benefits to all our people. For example, we have already seen the huge success of InterTradeIreland and Tourism Ireland. Indeed, we all agree that where savings can be made by working through shared projects, we can do that without interference with anybody’s political beliefs or aspirations.

Pól Callaghan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as a ráiteas. I thank the deputy First Minister for the statement.

An bhfuil an tAire ábalta geallúint do phobal iar-thuaisceart an oileáin seo go ndéanfar an bóthar A5 ag an stádas chéanna a bhí pleanáilte ariamh? Is the Minister able to give an assurance to the community in the north-west of the island that the A5 route will be brought forward at the same status and standard as has been planned heretofore?

Martin McGuinness (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

Go raibh maith agat. I have already said on a number of occasions in the course of my contribution this morning that that issue was discussed at the plenary meeting, where we welcomed the very good progress on the A5 and A8. The Taoiseach’s recommitment, which, to be fair to him, has been consistent, to reaffirming that those road projects and related funding will go ahead was important to us, and we have not heard anything to indicate that there is any danger to the project under that Administration.

The Council noted that development work has been continuing on the A5 project, with the key milestone, the publication of draft orders, being met in November 2010. The Council agreed the A5 project milestones and payments schedule, and those road developments, along with the progress that already has been made with the overall motorway network in Ireland, will ensure greater road connectivity across the island. Given that an SDLP Member has stated that that party intends to canvass for the Labour Party in the South, the SDLP can use its good offices with the Labour Party to get it to withdraw Joe Costello’s statement that there is some doubt over whether those projects will go ahead.

Executive Committee Business

David McClarty (Independent, East Londonderry)

I call on the Minister of Agriculture and Rural Development to move the Further Consideration Stage of the Dogs (Amendment) Bill.

Moved. — [The Minister of Agriculture and Rural Development (Mrs Gildernew).]

David McClarty (Independent, East Londonderry)

Members will have a copy of the Marshalled List of amendments detailing the order for consideration. The amendments have been grouped for debate in the Speaker’s provisional grouping of amendments selected list.

There is one group of amendments. The debate will be on amendment Nos 1 to 10, which deal with whether it is appropriate to allow a dog to attack a person or animal when they are trespassing; entry on to property to prevent or to end a dog attack on another animal; and a minor technical amendment.

Once the debate on the group is completed, any further amendments in the group will be moved formally as we go through the Bill, and the Question on each will be put without further debate. If that is clear, we shall proceed.

Clause 6 (Setting on or urging dog to attack)

David McClarty (Independent, East Londonderry)

We now come to the amendments for debate. With amendment No 1, it will be convenient to debate amendment Nos 2 to 10.

Members should note that, as amendment Nos 3 and 4 are mutually exclusive, should amendment No 3 be made, I will not call amendment No 4. Members should further note that, as amendment Nos 7 and 8 are mutually exclusive, should amendment No 7 be made, I will not call amendment No 8.

Stephen Farry (Alliance, North Down)

I beg to move amendment No 1: In page 4, line 13, after “who” insert “without reasonable excuse”.

The following amendments stood on the Marshalled List:

No 2: In page 4, line 27, leave out

“A person is not guilty of an offence”

and insert

“It may be a defence for a person”. — [Dr Farry.]

No 3: In page 4, line 27, leave out paragraph (4). — [Dr Farry.]

No 4: In page 4, line 29, after “land” insert “without reasonable excuse”. — [Dr Farry.]

No 5: In clause 7, page 5, line 2, after “who” insert “without reasonable excuse”. — [Dr Farry]

No 6: In clause 7, page 5, line 24, leave out

“A person is not guilty of an offence”

and insert

“It may be a defence for a person”. — [Dr Farry.]

No 7: In clause 7, page 5, line 24, leave out paragraph (6). — [Dr Farry.]

No 8: In clause 7, page 5, line 26, after “land” insert “without reasonable excuse”. — [Dr Farry]

No 9: In clause 10, page 9, line 31, leave out “another dog” and insert

“any other animal owned by a person other than the owner of the dog”. — [The Minister of Agriculture and Rural Development (Ms Gildernew).]

No 10: In schedule 1, page 12, line 13, at end insert

“and for ‘the order under that sub-paragraph’ substitute ‘that order’.” — [The Minister of Agriculture and Rural Development (Ms Gildernew).]

I thank the Bill Office for its co-operation and my party’s staff for their work in getting us to this stage. The Alliance Party strongly welcomes the legislation, particularly the clauses that deal with attacks by dogs on other dogs, other animals and people. However, I am concerned that the balance of the Bill, as it is constituted, is not correct, particularly because there is no offence in the context of a trespasser or an animal on private land. Members will be familiar with the problem of attacks by dogs on people, other dogs and animals, and, indeed, many of us have been very frustrated by the impunity with which those attacks occur, given the absence of a proper legal framework. We have all heard complaints in our constituencies about that, and we have all shared that concern. I have come across a number of such cases.

As the Bill is drafted, however, it will not be capable of dealing with all the potential situations that we need to cater for. The Bill is, essentially, 90% sound in that respect, but given that we are updating the Dogs (Northern Ireland) Order 1983 almost 30 years on, it may be another generation before we get another opportunity to revise similar legislation. Even at the eleventh hour of Further Consideration Stage, we need to be mindful of trying to address a potential loophole in the legislation as it stands, and what today may seem to be reasonable and to pose little risk may, with the benefit of hindsight, turn out to be something that we should have addressed.

The Bill’s provisions cover public and private land, which is welcome. However, private land is excluded in the context of unauthorised entry — that is, in the context of a trespass. The Bill is explicit in that no offence is, or can be, committed in the context of a trespass. That sounds like a very black and white approach that does not take particular circumstances into account. Indeed, as Members will be aware, the law on trespass is broad and unambiguous and covers a range of different situations. Indeed, any unauthorised presence on private land could be considered a trespass. There is need for common sense to prevail, and, in particular, for specific circumstances to be taken into account. Although we could speculate on the circumstances in which a trespass could or does arise, it would be reckless of us to try to anticipate all the potential circumstances and to assure ourselves that the legislation, as it stands, is robust.

We must also bear a sense of proportionality in mind. An attack on a person, dog or other animal by another dog may, in practice, amount to much greater harm than the harm of the actual trespass. Ultimately, it will be for the courts to determine whether an offence has occurred, based on the balance of the evidence. It is also worth making the point that a person does not have an absolute right to do anything to another person, even if that person is trespassing on their land. The law takes proportionality into account in that respect. Therefore, I wonder why a different approach is being taken in this Bill, when we talk about a person’s animal or a person trespassing and no offence occurring in the context where that person or animal is attacked by a dog. Indeed, the trespass could be benign and harmless.

People will be aware that there is a lot of controversy around the law, even in situations involving a burglar in someone’s house. The law on that matter is clear in that there must be a sense of proportionality. A householder does not have an absolute right to do anything to the burglar in self-defence. The court will want to take into account the degree of risk and threat proven. It is important that the householder shows common sense and a degree of proportionality in their response. That approach needs to be translated to the issue that we are talking about.

There could be a host of situations in which trespass occurs, the reason is relatively harmless and the person is not causing any harm to the land. For example, an animal may stray on to private land, which constitutes a trespass, but that animal may not pose any threat to a person or animal. If someone is using a right of way through the countryside and their dog innocently strays on to private land, the dog is still under the control of the person who is walking the dog. In that context, should the law not give some protection if that dog is mauled by another dog that happens to be on the land?

There could be a situation in which someone is deaf or hard of hearing. A landowner may shout a warning to them to get off the land, but the person may not hear, and a dog may attack or be set on that person. Under the draft legislation, if the person is trespassing, there is no legal remedy. A person who wanders on to land may have dementia and may not be aware of where they are. Again, they would not be causing any threat. There must be some protection in that type of situation.

Amendment Nos 1 to 4 apply to clause 6, which relates to attacks on livestock and certain other animals, and amendment Nos 5 to 8 apply to clause 7, which relates to attacks on persons. In essence, the two sets of amendments are identical, but, within their groups, they should be considered as separate pairs or options for addressing the problem. In essence, amendment Nos 1 and 3 work together and amendment Nos 2 and 4 work together. Similarly, in relation to clause 7, amendment Nos 5 and 7 should be seen together, and amendment Nos 6 and 8 should be seen as a different way of tackling the problem.

In essence, amendment Nos 1, 3, 5 and 7 add reasonableness to those clauses and remove subsections 6(4) and 7(4). The other approach, which is set out in amendments Nos 2, 4, 6 and 8, applies the reasonableness test with regard to trespassing. They also turn the statement that a person is not guilty of an offence on its head; rather, that it may be a defence for a person. That changes the balance of legal arguments.

I am certainly interested to hear the views of other Members on which approach they favour, if any. I have no doubt that some people will not favour either approach. My preference is the approach that is set out in amendment Nos 2, 4, 6 and 8. However, I am open-minded. Although my party welcomes the overall Bill, I stress the importance of the Assembly ensuring that it takes the correct approach. As the Bill stands, I fear that it contains a loophole. Trespass should not be regarded as an absolute. Some degree of proportionality needs to be taken into account, given the nature of particular circumstances. The Alliance Party’s amendments will address those problems. My party is also happy to support amendment Nos 9 and 10, which have been proposed by the Minister.

Stephen Moutray (DUP, Upper Bann)

It has not been possible to take the collective views of the Committee in respect of the amendments because it has not been able to meet to discuss them. In that case, therefore, I will repeat the Committee’s position that was established at Committee Stage when this very issue was debated.

At that time, the Committee agreed that the priority with regard to trespass was to afford the farmer protection from prosecution should he use his dog legitimately to prevent trespass. In all cases, the farmer must have certainty that he is protected while he protects his family and property. The Committee is content that the Bill and the Dogs (Northern Ireland) Order 1983 afford that protection. It appears that the amendments to clauses 6 and 7 would dilute that protection and introduce sufficient confusion as to cause the farmer to be unsure of his rights when it comes to protecting his family. That dilution is effected by moving from a position in which no offence is being committed to one in which a defence might be available.

Although I appreciate and support Mr Farry’s sentiments with regard to protecting vulnerable people in society, as Chairperson of the Committee for Agriculture and Rural Development it would be remiss of me not to ensure that farmers’ rights are protected. Let us not lose sight of the fact that we are talking about the deliberate act of trespass: a situation in which a farmer believes that his family and property are at risk. It is right and proper that he be allowed to offer that protection and counter that risk, safe in the knowledge that he can do so without fear of prosecution.

The proposed amendments to clauses 6 and 7, which relate to trespass, in the names of Dr Farry and Mr Lunn, are contrary to the position that was agreed by the Committee at Committee Stage. The amendment to clause 10, in the name of the Minister, extends a Committee recommendation that was agreed with the Department at Consideration Stage and applies it to the clause.

Francie Molloy (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

Go raibh maith agat. I welcome the fact that the Bill has reached Further Consideration Stage. I support the Committee’s position, which is to oppose amendment Nos 1 to 8. There was a great deal of debate on the issue at Committee Stage. Members on all sides expressed concerns about the best way to protect farmers in circumstances in which they must protect their stock and land without giving anyone authority to set a dog upon another dog or a person without proper consideration.

I have concern with the term “reasonable excuse”, which appears in a number of the amendments that have been proposed by Dr Farry and Mr Lunn. The result would be the farmer having to prove that he had reasonable cause. That reverses the impact of the Bill as it stands.

The Committee looked at various ideas for the wording of the legislation to ensure the protection of the farmer and the rights of the landowner in that situation. To change that around without any reason or cause, and to have what is basically a play on words, would endanger the Bill and the protection for the farmer, the stock, in particular, and other dogs, which the Committee was concerned about.

I support the Department’s line in relation to amendment Nos 9 and 10. On a number of occasions during Committee meetings, the issue of other animals, such as cats, in such a situation was brought up. It does not relate solely to dogs. We know the problems that there have been in the past. Sometimes, cats, in particular, have to make a speedy exit when dogs are about. The protection of cats and other animals is an important step to consider. On the basis of what we have, I oppose amendment Nos 1 to 8 and support amendment Nos 9 and 10.

Roy Beggs (UUP, East Antrim)

I, too, oppose amendment Nos 1 to 8 and support amendment Nos 9 and 10. I declare an interest not only as an owner of a small farm of 25 acres of land, but as a householder, because the Bill will have implications for private land, private householders or anyone who has land and who, at some point, may feel threatened by a strange animal or by individuals who come onto their land. The Bill, therefore, has relevance beyond the farming community; it has wider implications.

It is clear that the proposal will weaken the protection that is given under the 1983 Order. There are dangers in changing from that. Under the proposed regulations, a householder or farmer who feels threatened by a dog, animal or trespasser who has come on to their property can seek the assistance of their dog in defending themselves and their property. If amendment Nos 1 to 8 are successful, the householder or farmer would have to be reliant on courts deeming such action to be reasonable. There will be considerable doubt in their minds as to whether they would be able to seek that assistance and, ultimately, be defended.

The media has reported on cases in which an innocent householder or farmer has found themselves to be under attack. On occasions, the law has sided with the criminal, who may have been burgling or attacking someone’s property or animals. There would be doubt, therefore, as to what the outcome in any court would be. I suspect that with that doubt, there will be reluctance to take action. Such reluctance could endanger the individuals and animals on the private household property, farmland or business land, because the householder might not take appropriate action at an early enough stage or seek the assistance that might be available. Therefore, I am concerned about amendment Nos 1 to 8.

I am also concerned that given that the new legislation will largely reflect the 1983 Order, that issue did not appear to be raised during Committee Stage. My concern is that although that problem was not identified, a solution has been identified that may well create other problems. I accept that there has to be balance in law, and deciding where to have that balance must be done carefully, but my concern is that the amendments may be moving that balance too far in the wrong direction. Most people are reasonable, and reasonable action should be taken. However, I am concerned that, on occasions, others might present conflicting evidence or inaccurate information, which could leave a court deciding that the action taken was not reasonable.

If those amendments are accepted, we will be leaving it to the judgement of a court. Unless there was an independent witness statement, there could easily be two conflicting views. There would be huge dangers, and there would be doubt in the minds of property owners and farmers, should they decide to drive a stray or dangerous animal off their land with the assistance of their dog. For that reason, I have concerns about the amendments, and I indicate my opposition to them.

The Bill will bring about many positive changes that will improve how dogs are administered and will improve the protections for householders and animals. However, it is important that we continue to get that balance, and I have concerns that the balance could be going too far in a direction that could have unintended consequences.

P J Bradley (Social Democratic and Labour Party, South Down)

I oppose amendment Nos 1 to 8, and I am happy to support the Minister, as I always do, on amendment Nos 9 and 10. The Committee Chairman adequately represented the views of the Committee and my own views, and I thank him for that. I have heard nothing from the Members who have spoken so far that I cannot agree with. The Bill will update the Dogs (Northern Ireland) Order 1983. My understanding is that the Alliance Party’s amendments will take us back to pre-1983, and I do not think we want to go that far.

We had lengthy debates, which other Members referred to. In fairness to Mr McCarthy, he only recently became a member of the Agriculture Committee, so he cannot be expected to know about the earlier debates. It will be interesting to hear his views. I am certainly happy to oppose amendment Nos 1 to 8 and to support amendment Nos 9 and 10.

Willie Clarke (Sinn Féin, South Down)

Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. I support the Chairperson’s remarks, and Sinn Féin will oppose amendment Nos 1 to 8 from the Alliance Party. However, I appreciate where Mr Farry is coming from with the amendments. They were discussed at length in Committee. A number of Committee members raised the issues he has spoken about, but the view of the Committee was that we could not punish ordinary people and put them in an impossible position, particularly people from rural areas.

Everybody felt strongly that an owner should have the right to let their dog off on an intruder. Common sense has to prevail. That current position has been in place for a considerable time — since 1983, to be exact — whereby the occupier of a property commits no offence when they set their dog on an intruder to remove them from their property. There cannot be the possibility for ordinary people to be prosecuted for setting their dog to chase off an intruder. That would not be acceptable to Sinn Féin. In Committee, the Department gave great comfort to a number of members on those issues. At Consideration Stage, it was Mr Farry’s opinion that the issue was very generic or loose. I appreciate where he is coming from, but it is my position that it would be a legal minefield to open it up at this stage. As the Chairperson said, we did not even have an opportunity as a Committee to have a discussion.

At this late stage, I would not be happy to support the amendments because, legally, it would put the onus on the dog owner who set a dog on an intruder. It would put a great deal of strain on the ordinary person, so I will not support amendment Nos 1 to 8, but I will support amendment Nos 9 and 10.

Michelle Gildernew (Sinn Féin, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

Go raibh míle maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. I tabled two minor technical amendments, which were agreed at Consideration Stage, and I will speak briefly about those in a moment, but first I thank Members for their comments today. I hope that that spirit of co-operation will extend to tomorrow, when we are discussing the Welfare of Animals Bill. I appreciate the comments that have been made today. Before I speak about amendment Nos 9 and 10, I will say a few words on amendment Nos 1 to 8.

I accept that the motivation for tabling the amendments is well intentioned, but I cannot support any of them. We need to be clear about what the Bill says about dog attacks on trespassers. First, as Members have heard, it does not substantively change the relevant provisions of the 1983 Dogs Order, which simply states that the occupier of a property commits no offence when his or her dog attacks or is set on to remove a trespasser on their property. The Committee for Agriculture and Rural Development sought reassurance on that point at Committee Stage. It was felt strongly that legislation that allowed an owner to be prosecuted for setting his dog to chase off a burglar would not be acceptable. My officials reassured the Committee on that point and noted that the Bill’s provisions on that issue simply restate the position under the 1983 Dogs Order.

Perhaps the Member holds too broad a concept of trespass. The law as it stands offers protection to people who are on private property on legitimate business or, as the amendments put it, with “a reasonable excuse”. Setting a dog on such a person — someone who is not trespassing — is an offence. Amendment No 1, with respect to livestock and pets, and amendment No 5, with respect to attacks on people, allow that, if a person has “a reasonable excuse”, he will not be guilty of an offence when he sets his dog on people, livestock or pets. Importantly, that would not just be the case when faced with a trespasser on his property but in any place, public or private.

Imagine a situation in which someone sets a dog on a passer-by in a street or on livestock in a field. Under current law and under the provisions of the Bill, he or she is guilty of a strict liability offence against which they can cite no defence if the facts are proven. Therefore, we would move from the existing provision, whereby, in one very specific context, it is lawful to set a dog on a person or animals, to a position where anyone anywhere could set a dog on people or animals if they had a reasonable excuse to do so. I do not believe that it is the wish of the Assembly to change and confuse the legislation in that way. Crucially, those amendments would also leave us in a paradoxical position where, if I am asleep in bed and my dog bites a burglar, I am automatically guilty of an offence. However, if I wake up and set the dog on the burglar, I have a defence of reasonable cause. For those reasons, I cannot support amendment Nos 1 or 5.

Amendment No 2 and the parallel amendment, No 6, propose that, although an offence is committed, there may be a defence in court if the person or animal is trespassing on the dog owner’s property. It may be, but it also may not be. Even if it were proven that a dog was set on a person who had no legal right to be on the property, a court might still decide to convict. That is not sensible. Either there is a defence in law, in which case proving that a person who was attacked was trespassing leads to acquittal, or there is not. To state that it “may be” means that the court can take that into account, but it gives no guidance on what weight the court should give to the facts and in what circumstances. That is too subjective and uncertain to form the basis of a criminal trial. Someone who is prosecuted for an offence has the right to know with certainty what factors he or she can rely on in their defence. For that reason, I cannot support amendment Nos 2 and 6.

Amendment Nos 3 and 7 remove entirely the defence that, when an attack has occurred on private land and the person or animal is trespassing, no offence has been committed. Again, that is a move from the existing position of certainty that the occupier of property is not guilty of an offence under the Dogs Order if he or she sets a dog on a person or livestock to remove them from their property to one where, when faced with an intruder in the home, the occupier could not be sure that he or she would not be prosecuted and found guilty of an offence punishable by a fine of up to £2,500 for using his or her dog to drive the intruder off. Therefore, I cannot support those amendments.

I turn to amendment No 4, which amends clause 6 on attacks on animals, and the parallel amendment, No 8, which amends clause 7 on attacks on people. The clauses as amended at Consideration Stage provide that the occupier of land will not be guilty of an offence if his or her dog attacks a trespasser or if he or she sets it on a trespasser. Amendment Nos 6 and 8 reverse that. As I said, I understand the motivation behind Dr Farry’s amendments. I also stated that he may misunderstand what is meant by the concept of trespass. The law as it stands already offers protection to people who are on private property on legitimate business or, as the amendments put it, with “a reasonable excuse”.

I also remind the Assembly that this is the last amending stage of a Bill. Any late, ill-considered changes that we accept today will be on the statute book and will have the potential to cause real problems for dog owners, occupiers of property and those charged with enforcing the law. We have heard Members say today that the Bill is a good piece of legislation. I cannot, therefore, support amendment Nos 1 to 8.

There are a lot of very worthwhile provisions in the Dogs (Amendment) Bill. The two minor and largely technical amendments that I have tabled are necessary to tidy up the Bill and its impact on existing legislation. Amendment No 9 relates to clause 10. Members will recall that, at Consideration Stage, the so-called dog-on-dog offence was extended to cover attacks on all domestic animals. As a consequence of that change, the powers in clause 10 should also be extended to cover attacks on any domestic animal, not just dogs. Amendment No 10 is purely technical and corrects a reference in the Dogs (Amendment) Act 2001 to articles of the Dogs Order 1983 that the Bill amends.

As I said, those are minor, technical issues, and I ask Members to support amendment Nos 9 and 10.

Stephen Farry (Alliance, North Down)

I thank everyone who took part in the debate. Perhaps, this debate has been the warm-up for a slightly longer debate tomorrow. I appreciate the views that were expressed. I realise that the amendments are coming forward at the eleventh hour, but they come from a genuine belief on my part that the legislation, as framed, is too black and white on the issue of trespass. While I accept that my amendments are unlikely to find favour with the House today, it is important that we air the issues and put it on record that there is a different point of view and that some of us are concerned about potential loopholes in the legislation.

I will respond to some of the points that were made. The Minister made a point on the law around trespass. I accept the point that she makes: trespass, in essence, refers only to the people who are on someone else’s property on illegitimate business. There is a host of reasons for someone being on private property legitimately, whether it is the postman, someone making a delivery, a carer who is coming or someone who is not sure where he or she is going. The difficulty with that is that, even if someone is legitimately on someone else’s property, the factors behind that in some circumstances may well be perfectly benign, but, in other circumstances, the factors will be malign. It should be up to the householder or farmer to respond.

The way in which the law will be framed makes no distinction on the nature of a trespass, even if it is illegitimate. Mr Beggs made similar arguments. I respond by making the point that the legislation is essentially saying that, if someone is in a house or on a property without proper cause, as the law is framed, the owner or occupier has an absolute right to set an animal on that person, namely a dog. However, if the owner or occupier does not have a dog and uses a weapon instead, be that a knife or a gun, he or she does not have an absolute right to inflict violence on the trespasser. A court would want to take into account the proportionality of the response and the nature of the threat posed.

Obviously, there has been a lot of controversy around that issue, particularly in England and Wales. Common sense must prevail. We cannot grant people an unlimited right to inflict harm on other human beings or on the animals of those people because they are trespassing on their property. Factors that exist in each case have to be taken into account. While that may cause a degree of confusion for the people concerned, that is where we have to go to find a sense of balance.

In practice, most people know where the line is and not to cross it. However, given people’s nature, that line may vary from person to person. For example, a pensioner who is fearful for his or her life and uses a greater degree of force by setting a dog on an intruder might be viewed by a court as having taken reasonable action, whereas the same view might not be taken of someone young, fit and healthy who did the same to a fairly small intruder.

We must also take into account the nature of any intrusion. An intruder could be there to burgle the house, but, equally, he or she could be lost or have wandered innocently on to the property. Finally, we must ask whether there is not a requirement on property holders — be they householders or farmers — to give some thought and consideration to why that person is on their property, rather than assuming that every invasion of property is malign and threatening.

I appreciate the views of the Committee for Agriculture and Rural Development, but we, as an Assembly, are not here to reflect just the views of farmers, and the Department and the Committee must consider agriculture and rural development interests across society. They must also take into account the interests of all potential sectors, including dog owners and lovers who want greater protection against threats to their animals. There have been tragic cases in which dogs have been mauled by other dogs, so it is important that proper legal protections be in place.

I respect the views of other Members. I am aware that the amendments that I tabled will not go through, but it was important to air the issues that they addressed.

Question, That amendment No 1 be made, put and negatived.

Amendment No 2 proposed: In page 4, line 27, leave out

“A person is not guilty of an offence”

and insert

“It may be a defence for a person”. — [Dr Farry.]

Question put and negatived.

Amendment No 3 proposed: In page 4, line 27, leave out paragraph (4). — [Dr Farry.]

Question put and negatived.

Amendment No 4 proposed: In page 4, line 29, after “land” insert “without reasonable excuse”. — [Dr Farry.]

Question put and negatived.

Clause 7 (Attacks on Persons)

Amendment No 5 proposed: In page 5, line 2, after “who” insert “without reasonable excuse”. — [Dr Farry.]

Question put and negatived.

Amendment No 6 proposed: In page 5, line 24, leave out

“A person is not guilty of an offence”

and insert

“It may be a defence for a person”. — [Dr Farry.]

Question put and negatived.

Amendment No 7 proposed: In page 5, line 24, leave out paragraph (6). — [Dr Farry.]

Question put and negatived.

Amendment No 8 proposed: In page 5, line 26, after “land” insert “without reasonable excuse”. — [Dr Farry.]

Question put and negatived.

Clause 10 (Entry onto land to prevent or end attack by dog on another dog)

Amendment No 9 made: In page 9, line 31, leave out “another dog” and insert

“any other animal owned by a person other than the owner of the dog”. — [The Minister of Agriculture and Rural Development (Ms Gildernew).]

Schedule 1 (Minor and consequential amendments)

Amendment No 10 made: In page 12, line 13, at end insert

“and for ‘the order under that sub-paragraph’ substitute ‘that order’.” — [The Minister of Agriculture and Rural Development (Ms Gildernew).]

David McClarty (Independent, East Londonderry)

That concludes the Further Consideration Stage of the Dogs (Amendment) Bill. The Bill stands referred to the Speaker.

Committee Business

Robert Coulter (UUP, North Antrim)

I beg to move

That the Allowances to Members of the Assembly (Repeal) Bill [NIA 27/09] do now pass.

As stated at Second Stage, the current framework for paying allowances to Members of the Assembly is governed by sections 47 and 48 of the Northern Ireland Act 1998. Section 47 of the Act allows the Assembly to make provision for allowances for current Members of the Assembly. Section 48 allows the Assembly to make provision for the payment of allowances to or in respect of any person who has ceased to be a Member of the Assembly, that is, a former Member. Three such allowances are provided for in the Allowances to Members of the Assembly Act (Northern Ireland) 2000: resettlement allowance, ill health retirement allowance and winding-up allowance.

Under section 40 of the Northern Ireland Act 1998, the Northern Ireland Assembly Commission is required to provide the Assembly or to ensure that the Assembly is provided with the necessary property, staff and services for the Assembly’s purposes. The Commission’s report on financial support and pensions for Members, which was agreed by the House on 13 December 2010, recommended changes to the allowances in the 2000 Act. In that report, the Commission recommended changes to the existing calculations used to determine resettlement allowance, ill health retirement allowance and winding-up allowance, as proposed by the Senior Salaries Review Body.

The Bill does not make any provision for the new allowances. It is a relatively technical Bill that repeals existing provisions so that we can put new provisions in their place through the Northern Ireland Assembly (Members’ Expenditure) Determination 2010 until such time as an independent financial review panel is established. If the Bill is agreed, on gaining Royal Assent, the replacement allowances provisions agreed by the Assembly on 13 December 2010 will also come into operation.

Question put and agreed to.

Resolved:

That the Allowances to Members of the Assembly (Repeal) Bill [NIA 27/09] do now pass.

David McClarty (Independent, East Londonderry)

The Business Committee has agreed to allow up to three hours for the debate. The proposer will have 15 minutes in which to propose the motion and 15 minutes in which to make a winding-up speech. All other Members who wish to speak will have seven minutes.

Daithí McKay (Sinn Féin, North Antrim)

I beg to move

That this Assembly takes note of the draft Budget announced on 15 December 2010 by the Minister of Finance and Personnel.

Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. The Finance Committee tabled the motion for the purpose of providing all Members, as representatives of Committees or as individual Assembly Members, with the opportunity to debate the Executive’s draft Budget 2011-15, which was launched by the Minister of Finance and Personnel on 15 December 2010. By convention, the Committee for Finance and Personnel prepares a co-ordinated report in response to the Executive’s draft Budget on behalf of all Assembly Statutory Committees. The debate will help to inform that report.

Undoubtedly, there has been concern from Members, Committees, stakeholders and the public about the delay in bringing forward the draft Budget. However, it is positive that an Executive-agreed draft Budget is now out to consultation. At the outset, it has to be acknowledged that the lateness of the London Government’s spending review contributed significantly to that delay, given that it was not announced until 20 October 2010, by which time the Executive’s draft Budget proposals would normally have been announced. Nevertheless, it must also be pointed out that Departments were initially tasked with the development of spending proposals and savings plans as far back as June 2010. In July 2010, the Executive established a Budget review group to take forward budgetary and financial issues. The Executive have now brought forward a four-year Budget, which is beneficial in that it allows for longer-term strategic planning.

Some Departments have raised concerns about the level of detail in the draft Budget document. Those include the basis for the proposed departmental allocations; the rationale and methodology that underpin those allocations; the assumptions that have been made for the additional revenue that has been factored into the Budget calculations; the additional revenue-raising measures that are under active consideration for inclusion in the final Budget; and when the Budget review group report will be published on the ongoing work being undertaken by Departments to realise the additional revenue.

The Executive adopted a twin-track approach to the consultation on the proposals, whereby DFP is taking forward the consultation at a high level, while individual Departments are responsible for the consultation on their detailed spending plans. The consultation period has been extended by one week to 16 February, and that is to be welcomed.

As the Finance Committee prepares its co-ordinated report on the draft Budget, it will consider a range of strategic as well as DFP-specific issues. After the outcome of the spending review and in preparation for the forthcoming Budget, the Committee invited a wide range of witnesses to give evidence on cross-cutting public finance issues and commissioned research on specific areas. Some issues that were raised in evidence and by Members merit further consideration. I wish to take a few moments to highlight some of those key points.

It has been pointed out that there is a lack of detail about the strategic priority of rebalancing the economy in the draft Budget. The Committee also noted that the London Government shared their draft paper on rebalancing the economy with the Executive before Christmas. Perhaps during the debate, the Minister will tell the House when that paper might be available to the Committee for consideration and when the final paper is expected to be published.

On the topical issue of corporation tax and fiscal flexibility, we heard persuasive arguments for powers to be transferred to the Assembly, a case that was restated, although cautiously in some instances, by economists who appeared before the Committee. Although the Committee appreciates the Minister’s concerns about the short-term costs of a more competitive rate of corporation tax, it considers that long-term gains could be made by adopting that approach. However, Committee members are also mindful that a reduction in corporation tax can be a game changer only if the Executive introduce other initiatives to strengthen the local economy. Perhaps the Minister will update the House today on the progress being made on the issue of corporation tax and any potential implications for the draft Budget.

The Committee noted that, during the Budget period, the Executive will seek to raise £100 million through capital assets realisation. The Committee has been pressing for further information more generally on capital assets realisation from the Strategic Investment Board. The achievement of longer-term efficiencies is another issue of strategic concern. The Committee is mindful that the public sector here has been working to achieve cumulative efficiencies of between 2% and 3% over the past six years. There is a need for the Executive to set out clearly the essential services and strategic policies that are to receive priority.

The Committee is also considering the issue of preventative spending. Earlier this month, the Committee received a briefing from the Assembly Research and Library Service on the use of early intervention strategies to, at the earliest possible opportunity, lower the chance of the development of negative social problems. Prevention can be a cost effective way of tackling social problems, of which immunisation policies in the Health Service are just one example. Such a cost effective approach could also be used in early years intervention or in justice rehabilitation.

Equally, economists and representatives from the voluntary sector have impressed on the Committee the need to adopt that approach. The draft Budget sets out the Executive’s proposals to fund a £20 million social investment fund and a £20 million social protection fund. It has not been possible for the Committee to determine whether those funds might be used for preventative spending or whether they will merely be used reactively. Preventative spending requires a joined-up, long-term approach. That is because many of the benefits of such programmes are often not realised in the short term; neither are they always realised in the Department that made the initial funding available.

Members are aware that, during an economic downturn, preventative spending programmes can help to protect social and economic outcomes. The development of invest to save initiatives may be one way to further that aim. The Committee will, therefore, be giving that concept further consideration as it develops its report on the draft Budget. Members may also wish to pick up on that issue in this debate. In addition to the issues that I have already mentioned, the Committee will also give further consideration to a range of other strategic and cross-cutting issues, including the removal of end-year flexibility, public sector pay, capital funding and revenue-raising options.

I will turn briefly to the Department of Finance and Personnel’s spending and savings proposals. It is probably expected that DFP should be leading by example when it comes to budgetary and financial matters. Nonetheless, on behalf of the Committee, I commend the Department for the timely publication of its plans on 22 December and for the level of detail included in those plans. The Committee is also grateful for the level of engagement with departmental officials on strategic and departmental issues.

During last week’s evidence session with departmental officials on DFP’s plans, the Committee raised a wide range of issues. At the strategic level, for example, members queried why the real-terms cut to DFP’s current expenditure budget is, at 10·5%, lower than the average of 12% across other Departments. Questions were also asked about the guiding principles behind the Department’s proposed savings and the basis for the term “inescapable expenditure”, including the extent to which expenditure that is classified as such is reviewed and assessed for value for money.

Members have also sought a response from the Department on whether it intends to publish the results of the equality screening work that underpins the high-level impact assessments as previously recommended by the Committee. In considering its response to DFP’s spending plans and savings proposals the Committee will also wish to be sure that a firm funding base is established for Land and Property Services, given its important rate assessment and collection functions and its reliance on additional funding via monitoring rounds throughout the 2008-2011 Budget period.

Other areas that will be given further consideration in the Committee’s report include the delivery of shared services for the NICS, office accommodation and workplace strategies, procurement and potential revenue gains. The Committee has also received representations and correspondence from the Assembly Commission and Audit Office respectively, and a number of Committee members expressed concern about draft Budget proposals for those bodies. The Committee will be keen to hear the Minister of Finance and Personnel’s views on those matters.

As I mentioned, a LeasCheann Comhairle, the Committee looked at a wide range of issues at strategic and departmental level. Those will be discussed in more detail in the forthcoming report. I look forward to the contributions of other Committees and Members to the debate, which will help to shape that report.

David McClarty (Independent, East Londonderry)

There are Members listed to speak who are Chairpersons of Committees. It is not clear whether all those Members wish to speak as Chairperson. It would be very much appreciated if Members would advise the Table whether they wish to speak as Chairperson.

Mervyn Storey (DUP, North Antrim)

As Chairperson, I wish to inform the House of the Committee’s scrutiny, to date, of the Department of Education’s (DE) allocations in the Executive’s draft Budget and, in particular, the Department of Education’s draft budget proposals as published on 13 January 2011.

The Committee was proactive and wrote to the Minister of Education in early July 2010 stressing the need for timely and detailed information, particularly on the impact of the Minister’s options for savings proposals. Having received some information on the Department’s spending pressures in late August and early September, the Committee held dedicated budget scrutiny sessions at its first two meetings in September. It wrote to the Minister of Education listing eight key issues of resource and capital spending.

In October, November and December, the Committee continued its scrutiny of the initial spending pressures information. The education stakeholders examined, for example, spending on school transport, ICT and non-permanent staff. I highlight to the House a particular response that senior education officials gave to the Committee on 1 December 2010 when they were asked whether the Department was undertaking any option or scenario planning on draft spending and savings proposals. The response greatly concerned me and a number of Committee members:

“Our Department, like any other Department, works under the direction and control of the Minister … beyond the high-level figures at block level that are available, I have no figures on which to commission any work, nor do I have the authority to commission any work on scenarios.”

Following publication of the Executive’s draft Budget, the Committee wrote to the Minister again on 17 December 2010 stating that it was imperative that the Committee receive revised spending proposals, made in response to the Executive’s draft allocation for education, as soon as possible. I must report to the House that the Committee still awaits the Minister’s spending proposals. When the Committee asked senior education officials where the Minister’s spending proposals were in the draft Budget published on 13 January, they pointed to two spending areas that totalled £4 million out of a total education budget of nearly £1·9 billion.

On 14 January 2011, the Minister of Education wrote to the Committee stating that she was keen to meet and engage with the Committee at the earliest opportunity to hear the views on her proposals. On 18 January 2011, the Minister attended the Committee, and that was followed by two meetings with senior departmental officials that were dedicated exclusively to the scrutiny of the draft budget.

Immediately after the meeting with the Minister, the Committee wrote to the Department to raise the absence of draft spending proposals and ask key questions on several specific areas. The Committee’s key concerns with the Department’s draft budget at this point are detailed in an interim response that was made to the Committee for Finance and Personnel last Friday and posted on the Committee’s website today. I will give the House a flavour of those issues. I ask Members to listen carefully to what the Department said. On 26 January 2011, the Department’s view on the absence of spending proposals was:

“to provide something at this stage could, in fact, be misleading for Committee members … the Minister is determined to increase the amount of funding available for education … a further £800 million is yet to be allocated”.

Some members questioned the wisdom of that response. They quoted the Executive’s draft Budget, which refers to other possible revenue sources and states that, if any have merit, they will be factored into the final allocations.

The Committee heard from officials about a voluntary severance programme, which has been launched and targeted at the non-teaching education management workforce. However, no take-up figures, estimates of savings generated or plans are available. Some Committee members questioned the wisdom of not targeting potential savings from the 11,200 non-permanent non-teaching staff and focusing on natural wastage from retirees and leavers, bearing in mind that the total education workforce comprises some 60,000 staff.

The Committee thanks the Finance Minister for his work on end-year flexibility and particularly welcomes his guarantee of 21 January to put arrangements in place to ensure that schools have access to the £56·7 million surplus that has been accumulated. Committee members noted the co-operation and consensus on the issue.

Although the Committee is concerned about the overall amount of proposed capital budget allocation that is available to DE, some members questioned the Minister’s proposal to reclassify £41 million from capital to resource in 2011-12.

On the Minister’s proposal to extend free school meals entitlement, the Committee noted the significantly reduced estimates of costs. However, some members remained concerned that the extension of free school meals had not been taken forward by other parts of the United Kingdom and questioned its affordability in the context of the Budget.

I will close with the most worrying aspect of the budget proposals; the proposed list of savings that build from £143 million in year one to £309 million in year four of the Budget period. Some Committee members had serious concerns that the Department’s budget document and follow-up paper had little information on how those savings would be achieved and their actual impacts. For example, it is proposed that there will be a saving of £60 million from arm’s-length bodies and £105 million from professional support for schools over the four years. However, there is no evidence of plans, consultations or timescales despite the fact that significant savings are proposed from the 1 April 2011. Some Committee members also questioned and had concerns about the remaining spending on special educational needs (SEN) capacity building given that the SEN strategy is not in place. Others questioned whether the proposed level of savings from teacher substitution costs is achievable. Finally, some Committee members questioned the savings from primary school principal transfer interviews, given that no consultation has yet been undertaken.

I will finish by talking about an area of the savings proposals where all Committee members had major concerns; the aggregated schools budget, which is the money that goes directly to schools and classrooms.

David McClarty (Independent, East Londonderry)

The Member should draw his remarks to a close.

Mervyn Storey (DUP, North Antrim)

That is an outline of the Committee’s concerns about the draft Budget proposals.

Tom Elliott (UUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

I wish to make a number of comments, first, on behalf of the Committee for the Office of the First Minister and deputy First Minister and then, if time permits, on behalf of the Ulster Unionist Party. I welcome the opportunity to participate in this important debate and thank the Committee for Finance and Personnel for tabling the motion.

Even though this is a take note debate, the Assembly recognises that, to a large extent, this is a significant opportunity to influence the allocations that will be given to public services in the coming years. It is our responsibility to try to influence the Minister of Finance and Personnel to re-examine allocations and spending areas where we, as Committees, parties or, indeed, constituency representatives, have major concerns.

The Office of the First Minister and deputy First Minister published its proposals for the draft Budget 2011-15 on Thursday 13 January. The First Minister and deputy First Minister then briefed the Committee on the proposals at its meeting on 19 January. During the briefing, the Ministers provided further information on the budget proposals and provided an overview of some of the savings proposals. The Committee looks forward to receiving and scrutinising the detailed savings plans once they have been agreed by Ministers. However, I inform the House that we still have not had sight of those plans.

Committee members discussed a number of issues with the Ministers, including the strategic value of the Department’s capital projects and the importance of maintaining momentum on the regeneration of sites to attract investment and provide jobs for local areas. Ministers also provided further information about the social investment fund and the social protection fund, which the Executive will be taking forward. Members were assured that those funds would be directed towards the most vulnerable and that Ministers were still considering areas and possible themes in which to direct them.

Members also had a discussion with the Ministers about European funding and the possibility of introducing targets for drawing down funding from the European Union. There were also discussions around a possible Peace IV package, and Ministers advised that the Barroso task force was due to return to Northern Ireland in the next few weeks. The Committee welcomes its return and hopes that this opportunity will provide renewed energy and focus on Europe and the opportunities that it makes available to Northern Ireland.

Ministers advised of success in attracting inward investment to Northern Ireland from the United States, and particular mention was made of the success of the Titanic Quarter area in attracting companies such as HBO. There was also a discussion highlighting the benefits of such investment to the local economy. Over the Budget period, the Committee for the Office of the First Minister and deputy First Minister will monitor carefully how the specific budgets allocated to OFMDFM are used to deliver priorities. However, given the Committee’s responsibility for cross-cutting policies on sustainable development, European issues, tackling poverty, and equality and good relations, we will take a keen interest in how the Executive’s cross-cutting objectives are being resourced and delivered by all Departments and will work with other statutory Committees to ensure that there is real delivery in those areas.

I will make some comments as a party and constituency representative. There are a number of questions around some of the proposals from the Finance Minister and his Department. I would like to record that, although it was slow to come, we appreciate that a draft Budget eventually came forward.

I will be grateful if the Minister can clarify a number of issues when he eventually gets to his feet. He has publicly stated that an additional capital funding stream of up to £125 million over the initial four-year period will be made available from Belfast Port. I am interested to hear the Finance Minister clarify the legal status of Belfast Port. What legal right does the Executive have to access the assets of the Port, and in what way can it impose a levy on the activity of the port? Belfast Port is an extremely important part of Northern Ireland’s economy. The Ulster Unionist Party is concerned that the proposals in the draft Budget have not been properly thought through and could simultaneously jeopardise planned public spending and a key strategic player in our local economy. Clarification of the Executive’s position is crucial on that point.

Although I do not want to impinge on Mr Storey’s point, I have heard about the education issues. However, the Minister of Education announced to the Education Committee that:

“the Executive identified an additional £1·6 billion revenue over the Budget period. Half of that has yet to be deployed in the Budget figures … As members know, a further £800 million is yet to be allocated.”

I will be grateful if the Finance Minister can inform the house where the Minister of Education is getting those figures from.

Paul Frew (DUP, North Antrim)

Her dreams.

Tom Elliott (UUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

That is one of the key things that I would like to hear the Minister of Finance say on record here.

Before I leave, I am surprised that no one has yet said that all this is the fault of the Ulster Unionist Party combined with the Tory cuts. I am sure that we will hear that, so, before anybody else raises it, I think it is important that I do. Obviously, it was other parties, through their support for the Labour Party, that put Northern Ireland and the UK in such a difficult economic position. When the DUP voted to keep Labour in power and continue the economic downturn —

Sammy Wilson (DUP, East Antrim)

Will the Member give way?

David McClarty (Independent, East Londonderry)

Will the Member draw his remarks to a close?

Tom Elliott (UUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

Yes, I will give way.

Sammy Wilson (DUP, East Antrim)

I have just earned him another extra minute. Since the Member throws this wild allegation around, perhaps he will give us the date, the occasion and the vote in which the DUP kept the Labour Party in power.

Tom Elliott (UUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

I am surprised that the Finance Minister has such as short memory. Perhaps he was not there to vote — like his Sinn Féin colleagues, who do not even turn up to Westminster to vote. Anyway, they are in partnership now, so maybe the two of them can do all of that together.

Margaret Ritchie (Social Democratic and Labour Party, South Down)

The SDLP welcomes the fact that we have a draft Budget, as it means that people now have some idea of what the future holds. Credit is due to the Finance Minister for compiling an Executive position against a backdrop of less money. Wait for it, however: there are fundamental deficiencies in the draft Budget, but we can put them right.

The draft Budget is largely the application of what was handed down by the coalition Government. The settlement envisaged cuts of £4 billion. When we net out receipts and a rates increase, the draft Budget envisages cuts of £3·2 billion. Bizarrely, one party that negotiated the Budget, including the £3·2 billion of cuts, still invites us to fight the Tory cuts. It agreed to the £3·2 billion of cuts, but it wants us to fight the cuts. Is that stupid or dishonest, or both?

We can mitigate the cuts. The SDLP has produced a Budget document called ‘Partnership and Economic Recovery’, in which there are detailed proposals for additional new revenue streams and receipts and for cash-releasing efficiency savings. Again, one party pretends that the Budget already contains billions in net or new revenue. That is not true. When normal receipts are stripped away, there is little new money: less than 1% of the total Budget.

The Budget is vital over the next four years as currency, interest rates and taxation matters are decided elsewhere. The Executive’s only real economic lever is public expenditure. That means that the Budget must be about much more than who gets what outcome; it must deliver on an economic strategy. That is our second criticism. All economic commentators recognise the need to rebalance the Northern Ireland economy. That means reducing the public sector and making it more efficient. It means focusing job creation and investing scarce capital in the right areas.

Where are the proposals to move assets and activities from the public to the private sector? Where is the plan to generate jobs in the short term and get the economy moving? ‘Partnership and Economic Recovery’ provides some answers. Let us sell Department for Regional Development (DRD) car parks. They would do better in the private sector as they would generate a major receipt to fund other priorities. We should dispose of other assets that have a revenue stream. We should not be dogmatic about the transfer out of state control of Belfast port, a proportion of the forestry assets or any other appropriate infrastructure. Indeed, consider Northern Ireland Water. The solution to the problem of making Northern Ireland Water perform better simply does not lie in bring it back into DRD, as the Minister proposes. Will it really do better as a branch of the Civil Service? We should mutualise Northern Ireland Water so that it performs to commercial standards but does so in the public interest rather than for shareholder gain. Where is the job creation? There needs to be more investment in the tourism and construction sectors, which are indigenous and job-rich.

Our third criticism is that the draft Budget is simply not joined up. Each Department has been given its haircut, but there has been little thinking outside of departmental silos. The result is a Budget that has been generated by the DUP and Sinn Féin in a private negotiation. I do not condemn that; we would be in a worse place if the DUP and Sinn Féin had failed to reach agreement.

However, we now have the Minister of Health, Social Services and Public Safety saying that he has been allocated a capital budget to build a radiotherapy centre in Derry but not the budget to run it.

In education, we need funding and provision for the schools’ modernisation programme, because many schools throughout Northern Ireland are still in a state of disrepair, and we face the unacceptable prospect of hiking up student fees, the consequence of which will be to make third-level education the preserve of the rich once again.

Furthermore, there is housing. With the 40% overall reduction in capital, the housing budget has been cut by — would you believe it? — 40%. We have not reprioritised our capital programme honestly but have just spread the pain around. Incidentally, if any Member can identify a programme that does more than investment in social housing to stimulate job creation, reduce human misery and meet important social policy objectives, let us find more money for it. Despite such shortfalls in funding for health, education, student finance and housing, £80 million has been provided for a new Sinn Féin/DUP community fund to be directed to their chosen groups. I can only call such a slush fund a disgrace.

Nevertheless, we have to find solutions. How can we sort all this out? We should forget about personalities and genuinely do what is best for the North, such as abandoning the silo approach. The SDLP will not be territorial about the Budget. I have listed improvements that are needed, and, as a party, we have shown how they can be achieved. I hope that the Executive will work to arrive at a final Budget that my party can support.

Stephen Farry (Alliance, North Down)

The Alliance Party welcomes the fact that we have a draft Budget before us. It is almost certainly not the Budget that the Alliance Party would have sought to strike as a single party. For that, I refer people to our paper ‘Shared Solutions’, which was published in November 2010. Nonetheless, we respect the nature of government that we have in Northern Ireland and the fact that we are in a power-sharing arrangement, so the Budget has to be progressed by a process of negotiation among parties. Indeed, the two party leaders who spoke before me need to make clear their long-term intentions on the Budget and decide whether they are in or out of the Executive, because passing a Budget goes to the heart of participation in an Executive. Parties cannot be in and out at the same time. If the Executive do pass a final Budget, even on a majority basis, every Minister will be bound by collective responsibility to support it. In the coming weeks, therefore, that issue will come up for a number of parties in the Chamber.

For our part, we accept the need to address the UK national deficit. However, we are concerned by the pace at which it is being done and, indeed, by its differential impact on regions such as Northern Ireland. Nevertheless, although the comprehensive spending review may be objectionable to us all, we have a duty to strike a Budget within the limits set out and to bear in mind local revenue-raising opportunities. We also have to pass comment on the process. It is important that we have a four-year Budget in order to allow proper forward planning and the efficient use of resources, not just for Departments but for those whom the Departments fund. That said, a Budget need not be set in stone, and there will be situations in which circumstances change and requiring fresh thinking, so we need something broader than the monitoring rounds that we have had in the past. I would like the Minister to give that some thought.

I also ask him to reflect on what, up until now, has been a flawed consultation process. First, the Executive were late in striking the draft Budget, which is down to more than the simple fact that the UK Government did not give us figures until 20 October 2010. Our Scottish and Welsh counterparts were quicker than Northern Ireland by several weeks, if not longer. We were extremely slow, and that has curtailed the consultation process. Beyond that, we have had an absolute fiasco around the departmental spending plans, which should have been integrated into the overall draft Budget statement. If that was not possible, there was an obligation to produce them within seven days. Only three Departments — Justice, Finance and Personnel, and Culture, Arts and Leisure — came anywhere close to meeting that time frame. The others, including some major spending Departments, failed miserably to do so. Consequently, we have a consultation process in which the detail came out very late.

Even then, the level of detail varies considerably across Departments. The Department of Education and the Department of Health, Social Services and Public Safety are the two biggest offenders in that regard and the two biggest spenders. It is shocking how our Government treat the people of Northern Ireland over what is the most important decision facing this society.

I will also comment on the lack of strategic approach to the Budget so far. We need a very clear statement as to how it links in to the economic drivers of change in this society. Indeed, we should have also seen a Programme for Government and investment strategy possibly even ahead of a Budget, because the policy should inform the finance rather than the finance informing the policy. We need to focus on three economic issues at this stage. First, we need to ask ourselves whether we are directing enough from current expenditure to capital to continue to invest in our infrastructure and to address the downturn in the construction sector. Secondly, what contingencies are we putting in place to give us the ability to potentially lower the rate of corporation tax, if that happens over the lifetime of the Budget? Thirdly, are we prepared to give a commitment to a green new deal beyond the simple plastic bag tax, which will generate £4 million a year?

A number of important cross-cutting issues have not been properly addressed by the Executive. I would like certain issues to have been addressed clearly in the draft Budget statement. Although one may argue that some of the issues can be left to individual Departments, there is no evidence of Departments, apart from a few examples such as the Department of Justice, following through on any of those issues. For example, what are we doing to address the cost of managing a divided society and to realise the savings that can be found from investing in shared services? What will we do to try to find shared services on a North/South basis? Leaving aside the issue of politics, which is completely different, I would hate to see a situation where the two jurisdictions on this island retreat into their own silos due to the enormous financial pressures that they are under rather than trying to find opportunities for new shared services.

We also have to focus on early intervention and prevention. The evidence is quite stark that intervening early can save money down the line. We need to take a leap of faith in that regard. That is also linked to greater use of the voluntary and community sector. We also have to do a proper benchmarking exercise and ask ourselves whether the profile of expenditure in Northern Ireland, compared with that of our neighbours, is justified. Let us do those comparisons and see how we are doing, and we may learn some lessons about how to find additional savings. We should not be afraid of initiatives such as market testing.

The Budget is very heavily premised around assumptions on revenue raising. At this stage, a commitment to raising £842 million is set firmly in stone. However, some people question the assumptions behind that, such as the property market situation over the coming years. People are not overly optimistic about how quickly that will recover. Beyond that, we have a purely speculative figure of another £800 million that may or may not be raised, and I rather fear that a lot of parties are making commitments and assumptions on the basis of that money being generated.

We also continue to run away from the issue of how we fund our water infrastructure in Northern Ireland. The events at Christmas have brought that into extremely stark relief. We cannot continue to fund water on the cheap, and we cannot continue to have a situation where water has to compete against health and education for extremely scarce resources. We have to be realistic about that issue, look to what our neighbours are doing and make a commitment to face up to charging for water. If we do that, we must ensure that it is done on a fair basis and is linked to water usage.

David McClarty (Independent, East Londonderry)

Will the Member draw his remarks to a close?

Séan Neeson (Alliance, East Antrim)

Will the Member give way?

Stephen Farry (Alliance, North Down)

Yes, sure.

Séan Neeson (Alliance, East Antrim)

Does my honourable friend share my concerns that the money that was supposed to be set aside for improvements to the A2 does not seem to be there and that, once again, the scheme has been put back by the Minister for Regional Development?

Stephen Farry (Alliance, North Down)

I thank my colleague for that comment. It reflects concerns that we have about a whole host of departmental spending plans. Hopefully, we will have the chance to outline those over the coming days. In regional development, we are in danger of losing important investments in infrastructure because we are not prepared to take brave decisions elsewhere. The long-term sustainability of this society and our economy may well suffer because of our short-sightedness and continued populous approaches to decisions. In education, I am concerned about the redirection of money from capital to current. That goes against the whole thread of Treasury rules and is, essentially, recognition of the failure to address the inefficiencies in the education system. We are pouring good money after bad rather than being prepared to take difficult decisions.

Stephen Moutray (DUP, Upper Bann)

The Committee for Agriculture and Rural Development welcomes the opportunity to provide its comments to the House as part of this debate. The Committee and, indeed, the rural community have been waiting for the Department’s proposals and are now identifying their impact in Northern Ireland.

As is always the case, these budgets have been rushed out at the last minute, and Statutory Committees and the industry are asked for comments. The Committee believes that the Executive need to re-examine the scheduling of the budgets, particularly where they have coincided with an extremely heavy legislative programme. The scrutiny of budgets and departmental spends has been an ongoing difficulty throughout this mandate and is an area on which the Committee wishes to see improvement in the next mandate.

The Committee is pleased to see the commitment to the land parcel identification system in the budget. The Northern Ireland economy cannot support the continued application of extreme penalty disallowances by the EU. The Committee is disappointed that the savings will result in the loss of 80 posts in the Department and has received guarantees that those savings will be achieved without the need for redundancies. However, the Committee has requested additional information on the specific areas from which those posts will be lost to ensure that front line services are not depleted.

The Committee is disappointed at the absence of detail in the proposed plan, and it is concerned at the number of aspirational savings that are identified, such as a reliance on the reduction in animal diseases, particularly given the fact that the Department has not achieved its targets on those areas in the current CSR. On a number of occasions, the Committee has stated, and has been supported by the Public Accounts Committee, the Northern Ireland Audit Office and the industry, that the Department should eradicate TB rather than study and control it. That would release between £80 million and £100 million over the course of the next CSR spending period.

The Committee is concerned, therefore, that other as yet undeclared savings would have to be brought into effect if the proposed reductions in animal diseases are not realised. That could potentially have a more serious impact on the delivery of front line services to the industry and to rural communities. The Committee has been advised that the proposed savings will be achieved not through the eradication of TB but by a reduction of the amounts of compensation that are paid directly to farmers. The Committee will want to see the detail of those proposals in a timely fashion to allow for consultation with stakeholders on the matter.

It is disappointing to see a reduction in the commitment to the food strategy, particularly as the agrifood sector has been one of the few to expand and to create jobs during the recession. The Department is being short-sighted, particularly as that sector contributes some £3 billion to our economy.

Although the Committee does not disagree with the principle of dispersing Civil Service offices outside of greater Belfast, it is concerned at the timing and the cost of the proposed relocation of the Department’s headquarters. The Committee agreed that that was not appropriate, given the fiscal constraints facing the economy, and noted that the overall capital cost of the relocation was estimated to be £26 million, which was to be split across the next two CSR periods. The Department has not been able to provide an economic appraisal indicating how that figure has been arrived at and what other ancillary costs are expected, such as the costs of relocating up to 1,000 officials. In addition, the notional charges for maintenance for Dundonald House that were levied on the Department by DFP over the past three years total £5·96 million. Relocation and restraining costs alone could, potentially, be a similar amount.

The Committee believes that this is not the time to test the viability of placing a departmental headquarters at a location outside the greater Belfast area, as indicated in the Minister’s statement, particularly when the economy is under such severe pressure as a result of the cuts. The proposed move could have been shelved for a more affluent time when, quite frankly, it could be afforded. The Committee also seeks assurances that the national contributions to the Northern Ireland rural development programme, co-funded with the European Union, will be protected. The Committee previously expressed grave concerns at the programme’s lack of progress, particularly with regard to axis 3, and believes that it is imperative that the funds continue to be made available and dispersed in the rural community.

The Committee welcomes the Department’s commitment towards the countryside management scheme, as it is an important and well-supported programme, but it is disappointed that the Department will fall short of its Programme for Government target of land covered by agrienvironment agreements.

As I said, the proposals in DARD’s draft budget lack detail and ambition. The Committee that will be constituted in the new mandate will have a very important task in ensuring that the Department does not waiver from those plans because the consequence would be an immediate and devastating impact on the delivery of front line services.

Mitchel McLaughlin (Sinn Féin, South Antrim)

Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. I will make a key strategic point that has been drawn to the attention of the Assembly on more than one occasion in relation to the Budget process: the Finance Committee, in its deliberations and in its second report into the Executive’s Budget and expenditure process, recommended that although it considers the setting of a clear timetable to include key milestones at the start of each Budget process, it is vital that there be clarity on the shape, frequency and duration of future Budget cycles.

In noting that, it is disappointing that the draft Budget statement makes no reference whatsoever to an annual formalised review. To reiterate: the benefits of the in-year monitoring process are clear, but it is not obvious to me that the quarterly exercises are uniformly beneficial. Two monitoring reviews at the beginning of the third and fourth quartiles would retain all the existing benefits while freeing up timing resources to pursue the Finance Committee’s proposal. It is disappointing, and perhaps the Minister will reflect on that. The proposal will have the benefit of greater transparency and buy-in, which is of significant importance. It should be considered, and perhaps we will get some indication that the Minister will respond to that consideration.

In fairness to members of Committees, some of the issues have been addressed already. Therefore I will confine myself to two points that I think are overarching. The first is the proposed allocation to the Commission, that is, the Assembly operation, and the second relates to the Audit Office. There is considerable concern in each of them, which is reflected across the parties, that those bodies are an essential element in the accountability mechanisms that the Assembly has devised and which it applies.

Legislation makes it abundantly clear that there should be no interference by the Executive in the Audit Office. I welcome the Minister’s attendance here, and I draw his attention to the excellent research report that was prepared for the Finance Committee, which, to some extent, deals with that and explicitly spells out the statutory independence of the Audit Committee. There should be no reduction of resources that would affect the ability of the Audit Committee to do its work.

During the lifetime of the current mandate, which is the first full term that the Assembly has completed, one can see quite clearly that Committees, in their scrutiny and advisory role, have begun to develop an understanding of their powers and their ability to hold to account Ministers and departmental officials, some of whom are highly paid and powerful individuals. During the past four years, scrutiny Committees have demonstrated an ability to get to grips with the amount of detail and, in fact, have started to provide evidence-based confidence that the process of checks and balances is not only important but effective.

That brings me to the role of the Commission. Scrutiny Committees cannot function unless the Commission has sufficient resources to ensure that they are all properly serviced, not just with experience and senior secretariat leadership, but, in fact, within that leadership, with the high-level administrative skill, experience and research ability that is necessary to track through legislative proposals, policy developments or performance assessment on a step-by-step basis, as required.

It is of considerable concern to me and my party that both the Assembly Commission and the Audit Office have been singled out. Their treatment stands out from that of all the Departments, some of which are high spenders. I defy anyone to challenge my view that had the scrutiny process actually discovered examples of malpractice — work in which procurement guidance was not properly followed or areas where savings could have been identified and applied to sustain, maintain and develop front line services — it would be extremely short-sighted of the Assembly to limit in any way scrutiny Committees’ ability to continue to develop and enhance that role. I ask for a significant review of that to be undertaken.

I sought a rationale from DFP officials who appeared before the Committee, particularly with regard to the Assembly Commission. I did not get it. Officials pointed to the fact that both the Commission and the Audit Office had an element of underspend. However, the Department of Finance and Personnel also had underspend. I find it somewhat ironic, therefore, that officials would use that argument to justify what I believe to be an attempt to put manners on two bodies that provide vital muscle, resource and strength to the scrutiny process. It behoves Ministers to recognise and to respect that and it is for the Assembly to defend it.

Simon Hamilton (DUP, Strangford)

The Committee for Social Development, like others, has been hampered in its scrutiny of its Department’s work on the draft Budget by a lack of information, the timeliness of the availability of that information, and, indeed, a lack of clarification being delivered to the Committee even though it was sought after a meeting with the Minister.

That being said, the Committee has largely supported the bulk of the draft budget that has been presented to it by the Minister for Social Development. Down through the years, and particularly in recent months, the Committee has pushed issues in many areas that the Minister has taken on board in his draft budget and savings and expenditure plan. In particular, I am thinking about a large measure of protection for the voluntary and community sector. My Committee colleagues and I had thought that that sector would be seen as an easy target for cuts. Therefore, we welcome the protection that has been afforded to it.

Not unrelated to that is the Committee’s long, keen interest down through the years in funding for neighbourhood renewal, areas of risk and small pockets of deprivation. Again, it welcomes the measure of protection that has been offered to those funds. We note with interest and, again, with support that the Minister has reiterated to that sector his desire to see further collaboration and savings. Therefore, although protection has been put in place, there is a push for further efficiencies. That is to be welcomed. Other Ministers should do likewise.

There is also support for what appears to be a freeze — pardon the pun — for funding for the warm homes scheme. Although funding for that scheme has been protected, concern has been expressed about where additional moneys that would have been put into the anti-fuel poverty budget line have gone to and about what is to be done with that funding, which amounts to roughly £10 million.

On a slightly more negative side, concern has been expressed in the Committee about possible job losses in the Housing Executive and how that is to be managed. However, we note that a decision on a rent increase may mitigate that and, indeed, allow the Housing Executive to have additional funds to invest elsewhere.

We have also noted with interest the proposal to save some £20 million from the housing associations on an ongoing annual basis, which is a total of £80 million over the Budget period. The Minister has come to the Committee with his view that that might be ambitious, but, upon questioning from me, I noted that he did not disagree with the principle behind that. We look forward to seeing his proposals on how that might be achieved. I have been supportive of that approach, which is included in the draft Budget, for some time, but would like to see more detail on it.

There is not as much money available for capital expenditure in the Department for Social Development as anybody would like, but we are dealing with a difficult capital expenditure settlement. If there was more money, we would like to see it spent on the maintenance of existing stock or on housing newbuild, but everybody appreciates that we are dealing with a difficult capital settlement.

I will speak now in a personal and party capacity. I have heard it said that there are certain deficiencies in the draft Budget process. If there are deficiencies in the draft Budget, they are only as deficient as the system that created it. It is difficult to set a Budget in any circumstances, but it is particularly difficult to do so in the sort of circumstances that we face in the Northern Ireland Assembly, which is a five-party mandatory coalition. I ask Members to take a look at other jurisdictions and at the time that they took to get agreement. In fact, there was a lack of agreement at times. They did not have the political complexities that we had to juggle with.

Those complexities were confounded further by the fact that we were facing a Budget settlement that had some 40% cuts in our capital expenditure and close to 10% cuts in our current expenditure. I do not think that I need to remind people which party in the House canvassed for that degree of cuts. I do not think that I need to go into any detail. If anyone is confused, they can refer to the Ulster Unionist Party manifesto from May of last year, which reveals all the answers as to which party canvassed for those cuts. [Interruption.]

David McClarty (Independent, East Londonderry)

Order.

Simon Hamilton (DUP, Strangford)

I note the yelping from the Member for North Belfast. I know that he was not a fan of that particular linkage, but, like the rest of his colleagues, he is caught by it.

The 22 October conclusion to the CSR settlement should also be factored in. When the context of political complexity, the late settlement notice and the very difficult Budget settlement are taken into account, it is a miracle that we have come up with a draft Budget at all, never mind a four-year draft Budget, which is unique in the devolved regions across the United Kingdom.

I have also heard complaints about the consultation process. I understand those complaints. It baffles me as to why there has been a delay. As far back as May and June last year, the Finance Minister was warning every Department in the Executive to come forward with savings plans. Many of those Departments received settlements that were more advantageous to them than what they were planning for or being asked to plan for in May or June. One would think that to come forward with savings in expenditure plans would have been an easy operation for them, but some took weeks and weeks to do that. If there is any blame to be bandied around for the consultation, it must go to those Departments that are to blame for it.

Stephen Farry (Alliance, North Down)

I am grateful to the Member for giving way. Will he comment on the fact that some Ministers have formally provided answers to questions for written answer saying that they have received the settlement from the draft Budget and that they will commence sitting down with their officials to work out what it means for the Department? What does that sort of statement say about the respect that those Ministers have for the public of Northern Ireland?

Simon Hamilton (DUP, Strangford)

I find that baffling as well. Every Department should have been planning well in advance. We knew what was coming, by and large. We did not know the precise figures, but we should have at least known the ballpark, and we did. In fact, some Departments have done much better than they thought they would have done back in June of last year.

The Budget is not everything that everybody wanted it to be — it could not be — yet there is much that is positive in it. There are no water charges factored in over the four-year period. There is a real-terms freeze for domestic regional ratepayers, thus protecting people in difficult times. There is support for the green new deal, support for a social protection fund, and provision for a social investment fund.

I note that the leader of the SDLP said that it was a DUP/Sinn Féin community development fund. If she looks at the draft Budget, she will see that it is to be administered by the Office of the First Minister and deputy First Minister. The leader of the SDLP has not only written off her own chances of success in the upcoming Assembly election, but has done that for the Ulster Unionist Party. I know that everybody is all for honesty and frankness in politics, but I am sure that her party colleagues will not appreciate that, never mind the Ulster Unionist Party.

The Budget is certainly not without difficulties and deficiencies, but it is only as deficient as the process that set it.

David McClarty (Independent, East Londonderry)

The Member’s time is up.

As Question Time commences at 2.30 pm, I suggest that the House takes its ease until that time. The debate will continue after Question Time, when the next Member to speak will be John McCallister.

The debate stood suspended.

(Mr Speaker in the Chair)

Social Development

Sue Ramsey (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

1. asked the Minister for Social Development whether the Housing Executive is checking all maintenance orders issued for repairs during the Christmas period to ensure that they have been actioned. (AQO 892/11)

Ken Robinson (UUP, East Antrim)

7. asked the Minister for Social Development for his assessment of the level of damage caused to Housing Executive properties during the recent adverse weather. (AQO 898/11)

Alex Attwood (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast West)

I thank the Member for her question. I also thank all Members who forwarded individual cases to me about Housing Executive or housing association responses to the cold weather. Those have been important in informing my mind about the issues around the Housing Executive, especially during its initial phase of response. That narrative has helped me in addressing and managing the situation.

The answer to Ms Ramsey’s question is yes. At local level, senior management level and departmental level, we are making sure that all the maintenance orders have been processed; that proper invoices are being submitted; that, if necessary, invoices are being challenged, and that the very small number of outstanding works are completed expeditiously.

Those small number of works continue to be progressed but have to await, for technical and good, substantial and professional reasons, the drying out of a small number of properties. During the cold weather spell, the Housing Executive, on current figures, had to place more than 40,000 individual orders, all of which had to be processed by the Housing Executive and the contractors.

The contractors measured up, in large part, but there were, in my view, instances when they did not fully measure up on a case-by-case basis. There may even have been clusters when contractors fully failed to respond. That is why I instructed the Housing Executive to evaluate the contractors’ response in general, with regard to their areas of responsibility, to ensure that if further work has to be done with contractors it will be attended to.

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

Before I call Sue Ramsey for a supplementary question, Minister, do you still intend to group questions 1 and 7?

Alex Attwood (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast West)

I am sorry, Mr Speaker. I do.

Sue Ramsey (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. I thank the Minister for his response. Was he concerned at that time, based on the information that he was getting from local representatives and probably from some of his constituents? I know that the adverse weather brought difficulties. However, there are still people who were critical of the attitude and response of some contractors at the time.

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

I encourage the Member to come to her question?

Sue Ramsey (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

Is the Minister happy with that and is there a time frame for the absolute completion of some of those work orders?

Alex Attwood (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast West)

I thank the Member for her supplementary question. The timeframe is as soon as possible but some properties, because of the extent of the damage, must be allowed to dry out properly. If one accelerates the process of drying out one will create further problems in the medium and longer term. I have professional advice from the Housing Executive confirming why a small number of properties have to be handled in a certain way.

It was clear that an emergency situation was developing. That is why I called the Housing Executive in on two occasions before Christmas — on 21 and 23 December. That is why on 21 and 22 December I had four conversations with the chairperson of the Housing Executive to upgrade its response to the emergency. I did not sit back and wait for the crisis to develop and then take action belatedly. I anticipated what would happen and tried to intervene to help the Housing Executive manage the situation. There were issues that should have been handled better in its initial response; however, over the length of the period and given the scale of the problem, the Housing Executive increasingly escalated its response and measured up.

Ken Robinson (UUP, East Antrim)

I thank the Minister for his answer. Given that severe weather affected 22,000 properties out of a Housing Executive stock of about 90,000 does that not indicate that some houses are less prepared for the severe conditions that we had? Will the Minister give a reason for that and indicate a way to solve that problem?

Alex Attwood (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast West)

I thank the Member for that important question. The figures do suggest that there may be a problem with the Housing Executive’s stock. I asked for an assessment of what further interventions will be necessary, such as insulation, lagging and dealing with the freezing of gas condenser boiler pipes, to mitigate the risk in the future.

However, as I explained to the Social Development Committee last week, there may be other reasons why the Housing Executive stock was disproportionately affected. It may be that, because of the cost of heating fuel and electricity, people are not in a position to heat their homes adequately. Given the profile of Housing Executive tenants, among whom there may be a higher level of welfare benefit entitlement, it may simply be the case that a significant number of them are unable to heat their whole home and are heating one or two rooms, which carries the risk of damage from a cold freeze.

I take the point that an assessment has to be made to see what further interventions are necessary to improve the stock, as the Housing Executive does on a rolling basis through ongoing maintenance and heating improvements. Those programmes result in an increase in lagging and insulation.

William Humphrey (DUP, Belfast North)

I also commend Housing Executive staff for the work that they did, after the difficulties that the general public initially had in trying to contact them about problems such as frozen pipes, boilers busting and so on.

Does the Minister agree that the old adage of prevention is better than cure applies? A constituent of mine from Rusholme Street in the Shankill area contacted me. She has been waiting for three years to get her house insulated and to get lagging around her hot water tank.

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

I ask the Member to come to his question.

William Humphrey (DUP, Belfast North)

Will the Minister give us some assurance about the work that is being done in the Executive to ensure that homes are properly insulated?

Alex Attwood (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast West)

Again, I acknowledge the principle behind the question. All of us, including myself — I do not have lagging on some pipes in my own property — need to take what steps we can as private householders, and the Housing Executive and housing associations have to take what steps they can on behalf of their tenants, to improve energy efficiency and insulation.

As of January 2010, the Housing Executive has 50 schemes, affecting 3,700 properties. As a consequence, there will be an upgrade of insulation and lagging. In the 2011-12 financial year, 25 heating schemes are planned, which will affect nearly 1,600 properties. The consequence of that, in addition to a new heating installation, will be upgrades in lagging and insulation.

As I will touch upon later, the fact that we have a warm homes strategy and the fuel poverty strategy that I will be launching over the next number of days, means that there will be further interventions to ensure that, going forward in these difficult financial circumstances, there are adequate, if not increased, budget lines to bring about a situation in which we have warm homes, which will mitigate the risk of damage during cold conditions.

Conall McDevitt (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast South)

What was the extent of the damage to the housing stock as a result of the cold weather spell and the subsequent problems with mains water supply?

Alex Attwood (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast West)

I thank the Member for that question. As I indicated earlier, we have 90,000 Housing Executive properties. In relation to those properties, over 40,000 orders were placed in response to the cold weather. There were parts of Northern Ireland, especially neighbourhoods in Omagh, Fermanagh and south Tyrone, where nearly all properties were affected by the cold spell. The figures suggest that that was particularly the case in Omagh and that the problem was less severe in the eastern part of Northern Ireland. The scale of the problem was unprecedented.

What remains is a small number of properties that are drying out before major remedial work is undertaken. That work is the equivalent of the multi-element improvements that the Housing Executive carried out until a number of years ago.

That shows the scale of the problem around Northern Ireland, and, save for the initial phase, it also shows the scale of the response by the Housing Executive and many other contractors.

Barry McElduff (Sinn Féin, West Tyrone)

2. asked the Minister for Social Development why neighbourhood renewal partnerships have been asked to apply for funding for a one-year period despite the commitment of funding for a four-year period in the draft Budget. (AQO 893/11)

Alex Attwood (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast West)

I thank the Member for his question. Since the day and hour that I came into office, I have made it very clear that I would attempt to secure a budget line for neighbourhood renewal going forward. Since the draft Budget came out, I have said publicly that the neighbourhood renewal budget line going forward, including revenue and year-to-year costs, will be ring-fenced. Indeed, I am attempting to enhance it. However, the draft Budget was endorsed by only three parties around the Executive table in December, and the full Budget has yet to be endorsed by the House. Although I trust that the Budget will be materially different from the draft Budget as endorsed by those three parties, it will not necessarily be feasible for me to put in place what I want to, namely, four-year commitments to neighbourhood renewal projects going forward.

What did I do about it? I brought in all the neighbourhood renewal partnerships before Christmas, and I spoke to the Belfast area partnerships after Christmas. I told them that, if it was possible to get four-year funding at the beginning of the next financial year, I would do so. I also told them that, if it was not possible, I would try to ensure that some groups get a commitment for funding over the full four years of the next comprehensive spending review (CSR) period early in the next financial year. That would mean that some organisations would need to adjust how they do their work during the first year of the next CSR period so that they could get funding for the subsequent three years. It would also mean that some would not get any funding at all, because I do not believe that they are doing their work properly. Others would get new funding streams, as new work is needed in neighbourhood renewal areas. That is a responsible and measured way of trying to get money for neighbourhood renewal. Many neighbourhood renewal organisations have told me that they appreciate the up-front commitment to the securing and enhancing of the budget line. However, they have asked why, if neighbourhood renewal is managed in that open, transparent and accountable way, the so-called social investment fund that comes from the Office of the First Minister and deputy First Minister (OFMDFM) is not dealt with in the same way.

Barry McElduff (Sinn Féin, West Tyrone)

Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as a fhreagra. Will the Minister tell the House whether all the groups that are funded under neighbourhood renewal have been notified of the continuation or otherwise of their funding? The Minister touched a little on funding being awarded only on a one-year basis. However, does he appreciate the uncertainty that that leads to and how it makes planning for the future impossible?

Alex Attwood (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast West)

When I came into office, I met with a number of the neighbourhood renewal partnerships, and I told them that I would try to create the certainty that a four-year funding cycle would bring. I do not believe in ad hoc, year-to-year funding, because it create doubts and uncertainty and does not help organisations to embed themselves or have funding that is secure enough to fulfil their purposes.

However, I am not responsible for the fact that the draft Budget was not signed until December, and I am not responsible for the fact that, if we get to this point, we will not have a full Budget signed off during March. The funding issue is a consequence of the difficulties with our budgetary process, but we do not need to rehearse those today. In that context, however, neighbourhood renewal partnerships and organisations in neighbourhood renewal areas have told me that the balanced and proper way to proceed is through my proposed funding model, my attempts to get four-year funding for many groups going forward — if not at the beginning of the next financial year, certainly during it — while saying that some groups do not merit funding and others do. All organisations have been so advised.

Roy Beggs (UUP, East Antrim)

Small pockets of deprivation funding is part of neighbourhood renewal. Will the Minister ensure that the equality of treatment to smaller communities that qualify for that funding will continue? When does he expect them to be advised of the areas that will qualify and of the amounts that they can expect to receive?

Alex Attwood (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast West)

I am prepared to give the reassurance that, whenever I talk about neighbourhood renewal, I am really talking about the family of neighbourhood renewal-type funding projects. Those include small pockets of deprivation and areas at risk, and, as with the neighbourhood renewal areas, the organisations that are currently in receipt of money will hear in the very near future the proposals for taking that matter forward.

Anna Lo (Alliance, Belfast South)

Does the Minister agree that short-term funding over the past few years has prevented many projects from embarking on long-term and strategic actions to improve the quality of life for communities?

Alex Attwood (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast West)

I do not necessarily agree with the Member’s assertion. The neighbourhood renewal evaluation confirmed that the neighbourhood renewal strategy is beginning to embed in the 36 relevant areas and to have a material effect on the quality of life experienced in those areas. Although there has been some uncertainty around funding, the evidence shows that most neighbourhood renewal organisations and partnerships are beginning to apply themselves successfully to the tasks that they have set.

I go around Northern Ireland visiting neighbourhood renewal areas week in and week out, and I see that the funding going into organisations is beginning to make a material difference. If one goes to Lurgan, Portadown, Craigavon and various other areas, one will see how sport, through the construction of multi-use games area (MUGA) pitches, is creating opportunities for young people and others to recreate and behave responsibly, bearing in mind the difficulties and pressures that exist in those communities.

If we have an agreed Budget, my model is the only feasible model. However, within that model, I am trying to ensure that, before 1 April or as soon as possible after that date, all organisations that are doing the necessary work will have funding for the four-year cycle.

Simon Hamilton (DUP, Strangford)

3. asked the Minister for Social Development whether his Department will introduce a boiler replacement scheme. (AQO 894/11)

Alex Attwood (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast West)

I am actively considering the potential for a boiler replacement pilot scheme, and if I am minded to go down that road, I will inform the Assembly soon, probably in the very near future. If I go down that road and launch a new fuel poverty strategy, not only must we deal with the issue of warm homes through the traditional mechanisms and, potentially, through a boiler scrappage scheme, but we need to deal with the other two issues that create fuel poverty; namely, income level and the price of fuel. In any proposals that I make, I will build on the good work that Margaret Ritchie did on warm homes, and I will begin to create and build best practice around issues such as the price of fuel. It is self-evident that if, for example, there are 120,000 houses in the public sector in Northern Ireland between housing associations and the Housing Executive, that will create leverage on the price of energy from the energy companies. That should be exploited.

Simon Hamilton (DUP, Strangford)

I thank the Minister for his reply. He will remember the Assembly’s unanimous support for a private Members’ business motion that I proposed some time ago calling for a boiler scrappage scheme for Northern Ireland, so I welcome his announcement of a possible pilot scheme.

Does the Minister agree that the results of the recent Northern Ireland house condition survey and the actual and anecdotal evidence of some houses’ conditions during the recent cold snap suggest that there is an urgent need for a boiler scrappage scheme and other radical initiatives for better heating and fuel efficiency of homes?

Alex Attwood (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast West)

I agree with the sentiment of the question. Forty-four per cent of our people are in fuel poverty, and that figure increases to more than 80% for some of our senior citizens. It is an acute issue, and that is why I welcomed the unanimous view of the Assembly in that regard. However, as a result of the acute weather, the Assembly and the London Government have an obligation to help people who are in particular need as a result of damage to their homes.

That is why I have written to OFMDFM on two occasions proposing that we take forward work on an emergency payment in a number of categories to try to mitigate the costs that Housing Executive and housing association tenants are incurring as a result of damage to their houses, increased energy bills for using heaters, and the like. That is an important intervention. That sort of work is an appropriate and proportionate response to the acute weather and is indicative of the best intentions of the Assembly and the Executive in progressing a wider warm homes strategy.

Mickey Brady (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. If the Minister decides to go down that road and give us all a warm glow, will he ensure that any replacement scheme benefits low earners and people on benefits who are homeowners, taking into account the cost of replacement heating systems?

Alex Attwood (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast West)

I would certainly like to give everybody a warm glow, unlike the Member’s party colleague who wants to give everybody “warm weather payments” — whatever they might be. [Laughter.] I know that the Member knows, and I know, that they are cold weather payments, but another Member seems to think that they are warm weather payments.

If we go down that road at all, I do not intend to repeat the scheme that was run in England, whereby people received a £400 grant towards boiler replacement on a first come, first served basis. Given the figures that I just rehearsed with Mr Hamilton about the scale and profile of fuel poverty in Northern Ireland, it is self-evident and compelling to endorse Mr Brady’s point that if we go down the road of any intervention in warm homes, it should be targeted on those most in need.

Declan O'Loan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, North Antrim)

The Minister has partially answered my question. Why can we not, and why did we not, simply replicate the UK government scheme? Why must the scheme be different here?

Alex Attwood (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast West)

I touched on that issue. In 2009, the English scheme offered £400 cashback for up to 125,000 privately rented or owned households to upgrade their oil or gas boilers. We could adopt that model. However, given that there will be less money, fewer jobs and welfare payments and rising mortgage repossessions as people begin to experience the consequences of the reduction in support for mortgage interest and other debt issues, I believe that we should target money at those in need. Any potential boiler scrappage scheme must deal with that.

Unless our Budget deals fundamentally with the issue of hardship and undoes its intention to create a hardship fund with a budget line of only £20 million in year one, with no guaranteed income in years two, three and four, this debate, and previous debates on the Floor about warm homes, will be academic. We need a hardship fund that has guaranteed funding over each year of the CSR, which must match the proposals that I sent to the Executive before Christmas, namely that at least £30 million a year with additional moneys should be directed towards the scheme on a year-to-year basis. That would be proof positive of a commitment to those in need and disadvantage.

John McCallister (UUP, South Down)

4. asked the Minister for Social Development for an update on the proposed release of £20 million per year from housing association reserves to supplement the newbuild programme as outlined in the draft Budget 2011-15. (AQO 895/11)

Trevor Lunn (Alliance, Lagan Valley)

5. asked the Minister for Social Development for his assessment of the proposal to save money by reducing housing associations’ grants by £20 million in each of the next four years. (AQO 896/11)

George Savage (UUP, Upper Bann)

10. asked the Minister for Social Development for his assessment of the impact that his Department’s draft budget will have on social housing targets in the period 2011-15. (AQO 901/11)

Alex Attwood (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast West)

Mr Speaker, I will take questions 4, 5 and 10 together.

The situation is acute for housing newbuild. This year, we will be able to build over 2,000 properties. I will shortly announce how many houses we built over the past three years. Over the next four years, on the basis of the draft Budget, we will be lucky to be able to build half the number of houses that we built in recent years. All the figures suggest that housing stress and waiting lists will increase over the next four to five years, and if that is combined with fewer houses being built, it is an unhelpful and unwelcome situation.

That has been compounded by the arbitrary and unilateral DFP decision, endorsed by three parties at the Executive table, to pick £80 million over four years out of housing association reserves to help fund newbuild. As Members know, I am a believer in radical reform and a positive image of the housing association sector in Northern Ireland. I have asked it to do more on joint procurement and to consider mergers and working together on shared services. I have asked it to deal with the internal costs issues, but, to date, not one housing association chief executive who has, in my view, a generous if not extravagant salary, has taken up my invitation to take a voluntary pay cut. I want to reform the housing associations, but, at the same time, we cannot put their financial viability in jeopardy, as DFP and three parties at the Executive table have done, in unilaterally and arbitrarily —

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

You have run over time, Minister.

John McCallister (UUP, South Down)

I am grateful to the Minister for his reply. I am aware that, when he appeared before the Committee, he was hoping to have had some answers on the matter; 23 January rings a bell. What is his assessment of the impact that this could have on the housing associations? Do they have the £20 million a year that has been suggested in the draft Budget? Can the Executive take that money from the housing associations and use it? Does he have the power to do that?

Alex Attwood (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast West)

I do not have the legal power —

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

Minister, do you intend to group your answers to questions 4 and 5?

Alex Attwood (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast West)

I did indicate that, Mr Speaker.

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

OK, sorry.

Alex Attwood (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast West)

I do not have the legal power, but I have the operational power. If I adjust Housing Executive grant figures to housing associations to help their newbuild schemes and reduce the scale of such grants, the housing associations will be obliged to find their own sources of funding to fill the gap, either by borrowing from the European Investment Bank and the bond market or by reducing their level of reserves. That model has been used before and I am prepared to use it again. However, the issue is this: what is the bottom line when it comes to housing association reserves that can be legitimately used for newbuild projects in a way that does not put their financial viability in jeopardy? Although there is money that can be used for that purpose, it is my firm conviction that £80 million over four years is extravagant and not credible.

Trevor Lunn (Alliance, Lagan Valley)

I thank the Minister for his answers so far. The figure mentioned in the draft Budget was £200 million of potential reserves. Is he satisfied that that figure is reasonably accurate? It is certainly disputed by the housing associations.

Alex Attwood (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast West)

The figure is actually in excess of £200 million; it is probably in or around £230 million. However, the issue is more to do with the definition of “reserves” and whether they are cash reserves, or close to cash reserves, that do not have any other purpose and can be used for capital newbuild, or whether they are reserves that are necessary in order to prove financial viability, to draw down money from the European Investment Bank or to maintain stock, which is a very important issue, given the earlier questions about Housing Executive stock over the cold weather. Those reserves may not be available for any other purpose.

The real issue is about identifying the true level of reserves that can be used for newbuild purposes. I have interrogated the housing associations in that regard. They have provided information to me, and, in the very near future, we will determine what they say is available for newbuild purposes. I may have to push them further, and I am prepared to do that if it is the right way to go. I do not believe that picking a figure out of thin air, as DFP and three parties at the Executive table did, is a wise course of action.

Agriculture and Rural Development

Danny Kinahan (UUP, South Antrim)

1. asked the Minister of Agriculture and Rural Development what level of resources she intends to invest in the forestry sector over the next four years to increase the total acreage of woodland. (AQO 907/11)

Michelle Gildernew (Sinn Féin, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

The Executive’s draft Budget was announced by the Minister of Finance and Personnel on 15 December 2010.

I have agreed a provisional budget allocation, which has been published on the DARD website. The Department is inviting views on those proposals from stakeholders. More detailed allocation to areas such as woodland creation has yet to be agreed.

In the current Programme for Government, I made resources available to increase woodland cover by 1,650 hectares by March 2011. That will be done primarily through the conversion of agricultural land to woodland under the woodland grant scheme. That was always going to be a challenging target, not least because of the pressures that farmers and landowners face. Up to the end of December 2010, 671 hectares of new woodland had been created. That is obviously less than I had planned at this stage of the PFG, and it is unlikely that the target will be achieved by March this year. However, I remain committed to the forestry strategy’s long-term aim of doubling the area of woodland in the North of Ireland at a rate that will depend on both the willingness of landowners and farmers to plant trees and available budget cover. In November 2009, by announcing increases in grant rates of up to 30%, I encouraged landowners and farmers to plant trees. There has been a steep rise in the area of woodland creation applied for since then. I expect that increased interest in applications to result in more woodland creation that will continue into the next PFG period.

My Department will increase its efforts to promote the benefits of woodland creation and to provide assistance to farmers and landowners in the creation of new woodlands. The available support is significant and includes increased grant rates; changes in the single farm payment to allow farmers to continue to receive the single farm payment as well as a forestry grant for land converted; and advice and guidance from skilled and professionally qualified staff in my Department. I will consider how best the Department can integrate woodland creation and other land use management to achieve the priorities that we set for both agriculture and forestry.

Danny Kinahan (UUP, South Antrim)

I thank the Minister for her thorough answer, and I congratulate her on the increased woodland that she has managed to put in place. What resources will the Minister put in place to open woodland up to the community and encourage people to use it?

Michelle Gildernew (Sinn Féin, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

I am keen for people to be better able to use our woodlands for their health and well-being. In July 2009, I announced a recreation and social use forestry strategy that sets out how we intend to promote the recreational and social use of forests. It includes a wide range of elements, including mountain biking, walking trails and angling, that will enable the increased use of forests for recreation. The strategy is aimed not just at encouraging tourism, which I am keen to expand into rural areas, but at benefiting the people who live and work in the rural community.

Declan O'Loan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, North Antrim)

What is the Minister doing to encourage private investment in trees and forestry?

Michelle Gildernew (Sinn Féin, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

Increased grant rates for private investment is one of the things that I feel would most help in the planting and creation of new woodland. Although those rates have increased significantly, we still face a barrier, because, in Europe, the definition of a farmer for planting woodland is 25%. I feel that that is high and that somewhere between 25% and 15% would be better. However, 15% would be best. I wrote to Commissioner Ciolos on this matter recently and received a reply that was not overly encouraging. However, I hope that we can continue to press the Commission on the issue, given our very low levels of afforestation and the need to increase the targets.

Paul Girvan (DUP, South Antrim)

Sudden oak death has affected a large number of forests in South Antrim and in the east Antrim area in particular. What mechanism does the Department have for the reforestation of those areas? How long do they have to be left before they can be replanted?

Michelle Gildernew (Sinn Féin, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

Worryingly, they have to be left for a significant time — about two years — before they can be replanted. We hope to have all the trees removed by the spring. Under biosecurity measures, the trees are taken and processed. Biosecurity advice is given to people who go into forests that have been affected by sudden oak death. We ask that people respect that advice so that they do not bring disease back to their own homes and gardens. There have been nine confirmed outbreaks so far. That figure has not increased over the wintertime, but I imagine that there will be further cases of sudden oak death come the springtime. It is a serious problem, and my Department is treating it as an extremely high priority.

Willie Clarke (Sinn Féin, South Down)

Will the Minister outline what grant incentives are available for landowners who wish to convert their land for forestry use?

Michelle Gildernew (Sinn Féin, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

There are three schemes: the woodland grant scheme is grant-aided at a rate of up to £2,400 a hectare; the farm woodland premium scheme has payments ranging from £60 to £290 a hectare a year for up to 15 years; and the land on which single farm payment was claimed and paid in 2008 and was subsequently converted to woodland under those schemes automatically remains eligible for single farm payments. That is a good boost to people who are thinking of creating woodland.

Grant aid is also available for the establishment of short rotation coppice (SRC), which is a specialised form of forestry plantation that involves growing high-yielding willow at close spacing and then harvesting it at regular intervals every two to three years as a biomass energy crop. The maximum rate of grant for SRC is £1,000 a hectare.

Ian McCrea (DUP, Mid Ulster)

2. asked the Minister of Agriculture and Rural Development what action she has taken to help reduce the cost of feed for pig farmers. (AQO 908/11)

Michelle Gildernew (Sinn Féin, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

I am very aware of the difficulties faced by the pig sector, which have been brought about by the global rise in cereal and protein prices and by the fact that pig meat production and prices have yet to respond to those input cost increases. That position clearly cannot persist, and there will be an EU-wide adjustment in pig meat prices when European pig meat production falls in response to the pressures. That represents the long-term and sustainable solution to higher feed input costs, which seem set to persist in the immediate future. Since my press release of 26 January, it has been encouraging to note that the EU has agreed to open private storage aid to offer support to the struggling pig meat sector.

There are limitations to what DARD can do about market prices. However, the Department offers assistance to pig producers in a number of ways. Benchmarking, which is available to all producers via CAFRE, establishes the strength and weaknesses of individual units and identifies where improvements can be made and costs saved. Additionally, the pig grading information system (PiGIS), which CAFRE and AFBI developed jointly, assists producers to analyse pig carcass data, thereby enabling them to make management adjustments to meet market demand quickly. Significant improvement in returns can be achieved by concentration on improving carcass quality. The manure efficiency technology scheme (METS) and the farm modernisation programme are also available to help pig producers. Further support is provided via research through AFBI. In addition to those measures, our pig producers have been given substantial assistance at farm level to aid compliance with environmental restrictions.

Ian McCrea (DUP, Mid Ulster)

There was certainly a great deal of information in that answer. As she stated, the Minister is more than aware that the cost of pig feed has almost doubled over the past few years. Does she agree that one way to combat that rise is to increase the price that the industry pays farmers for each pig? Will she outline what work she and her Department are doing to ensure that pig farmers get the best price from the industry for each beast?

Michelle Gildernew (Sinn Féin, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

The problem is not just in the pig sector. Many other farming sectors recognise that input costs are not being met by output costs. The price for finished pigs has dropped significantly. In 2010, the overall price was 127·74p a kilogram, which was 4·3% below the 2009 level. At the week ending 15 January, the producer price had gone down to 126·52p a kilogram. We cannot get involved in market prices. However, we obviously can and do continue to press home the message that there needs to be respect across the supply chain and that producers, processers and retailers all have a responsibility to get the product to us. However, if one element does not get a fair share of the price, the whole sustainability of the supply chain will be damaged, and more people will go out of business. So, I continue to press it home to processors and retailers that our producers need to get a fair price. They are producing meat at below the cost of production, which is neither sustainable nor fair in the long term.

Billy Armstrong (UUP, Mid Ulster)

It is good of the Minister to make the House aware of how pig farmers work and that benchmarking does not guarantee profitability. Pig farmers are very efficient and have been working well. Their biggest concern is about what action the Minister is taking to ensure that regulations do not place local pig farmers at a disadvantage with other producers of pork products who may be importing to the United Kingdom.

Michelle Gildernew (Sinn Féin, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

Again, I have raised that issue consistently with the Commissioner and officials because I think that standards similar to the quite stringent restrictions and regulations put on our pig sector need to be applied to products being imported into the EU. I agree with the Member: the pig industry has seen a significant decline over the past 20 years to a level where only the best pig producers are still in business. We want to keep them in business, and we want to keep them profitable. We invest significantly in benchmarking and in ensuring that farmers are within compliance to show our commitment to a sustainable pig industry here. However, with feed costs at their present height, it is important to ensure good feed efficiency by reducing wastage. That can be achieved by calibrating feeders and adjusting stock density and by marketing pigs at the correct weight and carcass specification.

I agree that it is a challenging time for our pig farmers, and we will do all that we can to help them in this period.

Paul Girvan (DUP, South Antrim)

3. asked the Minister of Agriculture and Rural Development for an update on the farm modernisation programme tranche 2 including the uptake for the scheme and the number of successful applications. (AQO 909/11)

Jonathan Craig (DUP, Lagan Valley)

6. asked the Minister of Agriculture and Rural Development for an update on the farm modernisation programme. (AQO 912/11)

Michelle Gildernew (Sinn Féin, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

With your permission, a Cheann Comhairle, I will answer questions 3 and 6 together.

The closing date for applications for tranche 2 of the farm modernisation programme closed on 26 November 2010. During the six-week open period, almost 8,000 applications were received, 87% of which were online submissions and just over 1,000 of which were returned in hard copy. As the average amount of funding sought per application is in the region of £3,000, I hope that more than 2,300 applicants will be successful.

To establish the threshold score to determine the allocation of the £7 million of funding available, it has been necessary to populate the details of the hard copy returns of the applications received on to the EU database. That is time-consuming, which is one of the reasons why I was keen to encourage use of the online application facility provided. I am pleased to report that the task has been completed and that letters of offer have started to be issued to successful applicants. I expect that the £7 million will be fully committed to successful farmers by the end of March 2011.

Paul Girvan (DUP, South Antrim)

I thank the Minister for her answer. Is it possible to identify areas that have not necessarily been as successful in applying as others? Some areas seem to be good at getting their applications in while others are not. Are there any gaps in the Province as regards areas that have not been so proactive in submitting applications?

Michelle Gildernew (Sinn Féin, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

It is too early to say what the geographical spread will be until we have assessed all the applications. However, there has been a great deal of interest and excitement about the opening of applications for tranche 2 funding. From talking to farmers throughout the Six Counties, I believe that there will be a good uptake across the board.

Jonathan Craig (DUP, Lagan Valley)

I listened with interest to the Minister saying that 87% of applicants replied online. That may be a tribute to having our broadband rolled out in rural areas. The Minister indicated that she does not yet have the area-by-area breakdown of who is applying. Does she know when those figures will be available? Will the fact that the forms were filled in online not speed up that process? There are suspicions that in some areas such as Lagan Valley the uptake may not have been as great as in others.

Michelle Gildernew (Sinn Féin, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

I will look at that information. Our main concern and priority at this stage is getting letters of offer out and getting applications assessed and paid. I did not get those types of question about tranche 1. Nobody tried to find out whether areas had succeeded or failed during that tranche, so that is interesting.

I am proud of the fact that 87% of farmers applied online. It certainly sped up the process considerably. I have no doubt that that was helped by the extra £2 million that I recently put into broadband in rural areas. We recognised that there were difficulties. A lot of our farmers are of a certain age and may not have the necessary computer skills to complete that form online. We worked closely with others, which was demonstrated when the equality impact assessment was being conducted. We had a helpline operated by the managing agent, and we had great support from the Rural Support network, the Library Service, DARD rural enterprise staff and others to help to take hard copies of the forms and submit them through the Internet. That certainly helped and is a great example of what can be done when there is a wee bit of an incentive.

Tommy Gallagher (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

I thank the Minister for that information. Those of us in some rural areas, although welcoming the high percentage of online applications, want to know whether those who do not have broadband available are at a disadvantage. Will the Minister confirm whether her Department is prioritising online applications?

Michelle Gildernew (Sinn Féin, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

We certainly see the benefit in online applications. The Member and I share a constituency. He knows, as I do, the difficulties with broadband provision in constituencies such as Fermanagh and South Tyrone. We encouraged others to help farmers who do not have access to broadband or the necessary computer skills to submit their forms online. As well as the organisations that I just named, NIAPA, the Ulster Farmers’ Union and my constituency office helped people to put their forms on the Internet. It sped up the process and made it a lot simpler for us to assess the forms and to get the money out as quickly as possible.

The Department will use the Internet more and more for communicating with our customers, because it is so much better. For example, the integrated administration and control system (IACS) online form does not allow anyone to make a mistake. We both know the difficulties for farmers who maybe wait until the spring to get their single farm payment instead of getting it when it first becomes available before Christmas. There is certainly great benefit in operating online, but we have to recognise that the infrastructure is not as we would like it to be right across the rural Six Counties.

Leslie Cree (UUP, North Down)

Does the Minister accept that large, highly profitable firms in disadvantaged areas are more successful than more marginal firms in my area, for example, and that those firms are, therefore, being penalised because of their location?

Michelle Gildernew (Sinn Féin, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

I believe that people, whatever their location, need to have equality of services. Had the Quinn Group, which was based in Derrylin, been based in, Dunmurry, for example, would it have had a different experience? I suggest that it certainly would have and that it would have had a better service if it had been located closer to Belfast. It is important that we ensure that rural communities are not left behind. We have been left behind for so long in terms of our roads infrastructure and how we can encourage businesses to invest in the west. It is important that we are not equally left behind when it comes to the IT and technology infrastructure. Businesses, wherever they are, should be able to compete with businesses in and around Belfast.

Pat Doherty (Sinn Féin, West Tyrone)

4. asked the Minister of Agriculture and Rural Development, given the current poor economic conditions, what priority she will give to tackling rural poverty. (AQO 910/11)

Michelle Gildernew (Sinn Féin, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

When I took up the post of Minister, I acted quickly to ensure that the Executive agreed to bring forward a £10 million package to tackle poverty and exclusion as a Programme for Government target up to the end of March this year. The subsequent initiatives that were developed and led by my Department and were aimed at tackling poverty are having a brilliant impact on our rural communities, but there is still an awful lot to do. That is why I have fought hard to secure and retain the existing funding level and why, given that more and more people are falling into poverty in the current climate, I want to enhance our commitment to tackling rural poverty and exclusion by raising expenditure to around £16 million during the next Budget period.

It is key that we build on the many successful initiatives on which my Department is leading and that we develop others to help to address poverty and exclusion. Through working with other Departments and agencies, more than 10,000 people have benefited from a range of projects, including community transport; rural childcare provision; better access to a range of grants, benefits and services; the installation of heating to address fuel poverty; the rural support helpline; enhanced access to rural broadband, as I said; and small grants for local projects that address local rural needs. I believe that a true and meaningful cross-departmental approach has brought in more money, added value to what we have done and shown what we can achieve when we work together.

Pat Doherty (Sinn Féin, West Tyrone)

Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. I thank the Minister for her very detailed answer. Will she provide more details on the benefit take-up programme in rural areas?

Michelle Gildernew (Sinn Féin, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

I am very excited about that, and it has been of great value. A pilot scheme run by Fermanagh Rural Community Network showed that every £1 invested was able to secure £6 in entitlements, so it was a really significant project. Our project is very lively: almost 4,000 visits have been completed, and I expect great benefits to be realised for rural communities as referrals are worked through in the next six months. At this stage, we have covered 30% of the most deprived rural super output areas, and I would love to see the scheme roll out to them all.

I will take this opportunity to advise the House about one case in particular. Just before Christmas, during the very cold weather, one of our project enablers identified and visited a house in which the occupants — a husband, wife and four children aged below 12 — were existing in very poor conditions. They were dealing with severe financial difficulties and illness, and they were sleeping and living in one room, using firewood gathered on a daily basis as a means of heat. We made immediate contact with various agencies. We got heating oil, clothes and food for the children. We got disability living allowance fast-tracked and a social worker assigned, and the family is now availing itself of Sure Start and other local services. Through my Department’s intervention and with assistance from other agencies, the life of that family has improved considerably. That is why we need to continue working to build on all the anti-poverty work that we have done to date.

Gregory Campbell (DUP, East Londonderry)

The Minister will be aware that some small businesses in rural areas, particularly areas affected by socio-economic problems, are having difficulty expanding or relocating their business in those areas. Will she ensure that, when it comes to planning matters, her officials co-operate as closely as possible with Department for Regional Development officials to ensure that businesses retain their integrity in isolated rural areas?

Michelle Gildernew (Sinn Féin, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

I always try to do that, and I would want my officials to work on planning matters not only with DRD but with the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Investment and the Department of the Environment to ensure that what can be done is done to keep those businesses in rural communities. They provide jobs and services for people in rural areas. The Member will be aware that 40% of people in the Six Counties live in a rural area, so we need a financial infrastructure to create jobs and services in rural as well as urban areas. It is a matter of us all working together to ensure that we maximise everybody’s quality of life, and we must work across Departments to make sure that that happens.

Roy Beggs (UUP, East Antrim)

The Minister illustrated how many disadvantaged communities may not be aware of their entitlement to benefits and other schemes, such as the warm homes scheme. How will she continue to assist organisations, such as the North Antrim Community Network and its associated organisations, so that local people are well informed and can assist their neighbours when they spot that assistance is required?

Michelle Gildernew (Sinn Féin, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

I am a great believer in the bottom-up approach, and we use the Rural Support networks to identify people who can be trained as rural enablers, so that people do not have somebody coming from outside the area to ascertain the need in that area. It is all done at grass-roots level, and that is one of the benefits of the project. As I said, more than 4,000 visits have taken place, and our trained enablers have been able to gain people’s trust, find out what they need and ensure that they are pointed towards the grants, services and benefits to which they are entitled.

Rural people can be slow to look for benefits. They can be proud and do not like to admit that they are struggling. This project, which has been delivered in collaboration with the Department of Health, Social Services and Public Safety, has been excellent, and I would love it to be rolled out to all the rural super output areas.

Kieran McCarthy (Alliance, Strangford)

In a previous response, the Minister mentioned community transport. Is she aware that her counterpart in the Department for Regional Development has announced a massive reduction of 50% to Down Community Transport’s funding. That will mean that a lot of people in the Down and Ards area will not be able to avail themselves of the transport to which they are used. That will inevitably contribute to —

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

The Member should come to his question.

Kieran McCarthy (Alliance, Strangford)

It will inevitably contribute to isolation and poverty. Will the Minister correspond with Minister Murphy to ensure that that does not happen and that her policy can be fulfilled in the Down and Ards area?

Michelle Gildernew (Sinn Féin, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

I speak frequently to Minister Murphy on that issue, and, through the work that we have done on assisted rural travel and dial-a-lift, my Department has funded over 100,000 passenger trips in the first 12 months of the assisted rural travel scheme. Each of the 16 rural community transport partnerships are showing excellent and increasing month-on-month usage figures, with over 1,700 individuals using the scheme in November. I would be concerned about reductions in any of those transport schemes.

The Member is absolutely right: rural transport is the key to people’s ability to socialise, to get out and about and to go to appointments. It is a real lifeline, especially for people with disabilities. We spoke to young people with disabilities and to others with mobility problems, and, to me, rural transport is a necessity and not a luxury. However, we need to ensure that, in the current financial climate, those schemes get priority and are funded for the community’s benefit.

Pat Ramsey (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

5. asked the Minister of Agriculture and Rural Development whether she has any plans to reduce the measures currently in place to protect against bluetongue disease. (AQO 911/11)

Michelle Gildernew (Sinn Féin, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

Following the widespread outbreaks of bluetongue in Europe and Britain, I, with the support of UFU and other stakeholders, have consistently urged importers not to put their business and that of their neighbours at risk by importing animals from bluetongue protection zones in Britain and Europe. The industry also decided to operate a voluntary ban on the imports of slaughter animals from bluetongue-affected areas. In addition, any susceptible animals that come here from Britain or Europe are tested after they arrive to ensure that they have complied with the legal requirements. Those animals are restricted and isolated until the results of those tests are known.

I shudder to think of the consequences had those measures not been in place. I remind the House that, almost three years ago on 14 February 2008, those control measures allowed us to quickly identify and cull an imported animal. Further investigations were carried out, and a total of 30 animals were culled because they had been infected with the disease or posed a threat of further disease spread. Economic estimates show that the local industry could have suffered to the tune of £75 million in that intervening period if bluetongue had become established then. I have been consistent on that issue in maintaining a fortress-Ireland approach to keeping bluetongue out, and I do not intend to make any policy changes at this time.

Pat Ramsey (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

I thank the Minister for her detailed and robust answer. On 15 November 2010, the European Union proposed an amendment to the directive that prohibits vaccination against the disease in bluetongue-free areas. The new proposal will permit the development of a vaccination strategy. How does the Minister view that amendment?

Michelle Gildernew (Sinn Féin, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

At this time, you cannot vaccinate outside a bluetongue protection zone. We have a bluetongue-free Ireland without vaccination. That is our first line of defence, and keeping bluetongue out is still the best and most important thing that we can do. Obviously, I will look at changes as they happen in Europe and assess the position then, but I assure the House and the Member that the fortress-Ireland approach and not importing cattle that are affected by bluetongue has been the best policy so far to protect our industry from a significant financial impact.

Committee Business

John McCallister (UUP, South Down)

In opening, I will make some general comments about the budgeting process. I agree with colleagues that the lateness of the draft Budget has caused problems. I am sure that, in his response, the Minister will give some indication of how he plans to deal with that.

The lateness of the draft Budget and the consultation process will cause huge problems for how budgets will be managed and implemented, particularly during such a difficult period, in a matter of weeks and perhaps less from the Budget being agreed — if the Executive agree a Budget in this mandate.

(Mr Deputy Speaker [Mr Dallat] in the Chair)

I will set in context the state of public finances across the United Kingdom and the challenges that we face as a nation: for us to put right our public finances and clear up the mess from 13 disastrous years of a Labour Government will be very difficult, and there will be challenging times ahead. I agree with my party leader that it would have been much better to have brought that Government to an end earlier rather than leaving them to run their course for the full 13 years. However, it was for others to decide what way they voted in contributing to that.

I turn to some of the issues that are reflected by the Committees on which I represent the Ulster Unionist Party. The Chairperson of the Committee for Social Development reflected some of the comments that have been made at Committee on the contribution of £80 million, or £20 million a year, from housing associations. It is interesting that I brought up that issue with the Minister for Social Development during Question Time. There are issues about whether it is wise to proceed with that and whether the figures of £20 million a year and £80 million over the cycle can be realised. Most housing associations doubt that it can.

How will the Department get that money from housing associations? Minister Attwood said that some of their grant rate could be changed, but it seems unlikely that that would equate to the £80 million that is stated in the draft Budget. It would be difficult, and it is somewhat reckless to throw out a figure when there is no evidence to back up that it can be achieved. It is difficult to see how the 2,500 houses a year that are needed can continue to be built —

Sammy Wilson (DUP, East Antrim)

Will the Member give way?

John McCallister (UUP, South Down)

Yes.

Sammy Wilson (DUP, East Antrim)

The Member said that the figures are reckless and that it does not seem likely that they can be realised. On what basis does he make that judgement? Given that £220 million in reserves are held by housing associations, and based on the information that benchmarks them against housing associations and housing bodies elsewhere, is it not possible that they could borrow more and that they do not need the level of reserves that they hold? If he is to make that suggestion, he at least must justify it.

John McCallister (UUP, South Down)

I am grateful to the Minister. I make that judgement on the same basis as he thinks that it is proper that he can simply write into the draft Budget a figure for which there is no basis. His colleague the Minister for Social Development, who is the lead Minister on the issue, did not give any indication to the House or to the Committee that that was achievable. On that basis, I am quite content to stand over my remark. I feel that it was reckless simply to write into the draft Budget a figure that the Minister for Social Development thinks might not be entirely possible to achieve, as he has said to the Committee and to the House. Therefore, my questioning that figure is based on a sound argument, and I look forward to hearing the Minister provide detail on where he can get the £80 million and how he can build houses. At a time when the need for houses is rising, Minister Attwood said that we may be lucky to build half the number of houses that are being built currently. The Minister of Finance and Personnel must address those issues in his response.

I turn to the other Committee on which I sit, the Committee for Health, Social Services and Public Safety. There has been an interesting debate between the Minister of Finance and Personnel and the Minister of Health, Social Services and Public Safety. It is interesting how the figures have been reached and whether the Department of Health is getting the level of protection that colleagues in England are affording to health around other parts of the UK.

Just before Question Time, the Minister’s colleague Mr Hamilton was laying into us for standing on a manifesto last year with the Conservatives. I was one of the candidates who stood on that manifesto, and one of the proudest bits of that manifesto was our rock-solid commitment to protect health across the United Kingdom and to stick with that, recognising that it is one of the most important government functions to protect and defend. When the Conservatives got into power with the Lib Dems, they delivered on that, and they have protected health. However, according not only to the Department but to Research Services in the Assembly, Northern Ireland is £80 million a year short of the protection that England has, building that up over a four-year period. That makes a significant difference to the way that this is protected.

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

If health was to receive the same capital allocation as England, there would be a reduction of £120 million. Would you support that?

John McCallister (UUP, South Down)

The Member knows very well that they would then have to try to convert moneys from capital to revenue or revenue back to capital, and other Departments are struggling with how to do that. She is only taking one issue out of this because it will affect Altnagelvin. Projects have been announced, but the Department of Health does not know whether they have been funded.

If the monitoring process goes ahead, there is a mystery around the £20 million that health has been promised, according to the Chairperson of the Committee and to Alex Easton. They were assured by the Finance Minister that that was the case, yet the Department and the Health Minister have no evidence to back that up. Health needs to be protected. We need the same protection with a revenue spend that other parts of the UK are getting. I hope that the Deputy Chairperson of the Committee will help and join us in supporting that.

Declan O'Loan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, North Antrim)

I am pleased to take part in this important debate. It is the first significant debate that we have had on the draft Budget, but we will have other opportunities. It is a critical debate because how we plan to apply our resources, even over a four-year period, is a very significant decision for the Assembly. It is critical that the Assembly engage with that debate in a very serious way.

We should look back on the euphoria, and no less a word could describe it, that existed throughout our community and the media in particular, who conveyed the public sentiment when the draft Budget emerged just before Christmas. There had been a huge delay in producing the draft Budget, and people even feared that we might create an emergency Budget on 31 March, with the permanent secretary having to intervene. Fortunately, that did not happen, but around the great delight among the public that a draft Budget had emerged, the delay and the tedious and often ill-judged arguments were very quickly forgiven and forgotten, and there was real pleasure among the public that the Assembly was doing its business. There is a lesson for us there. The public really want to see the Assembly working, and they surely deserve that from us.

At the outset, I declare my stance on the draft Budget. I do not think that it is a good Budget, and I want to see it improved. Ultimately, I will look for the Minister to see that he is open to that. I will say more about that, but, first, I want to say something about the process of creating the Budget. The process in the Executive has not been healthy. Stephen Farry made a remark earlier about parties having to consider their position when they address the Budget.

I think that he was expressing a view towards parties such as mine. He might have been as wise to direct his remarks to the parties in the Office of the First Minister and deputy First Minister about how they have conducted the process. Although there was a Budget review group, Members know that the real meat of the work to create the Budget was done between the two parties that are represented in that office. That achieved neither a good Budget nor political coherence or agreement on it. The Alliance Party, which, because it is “alliance” in name, believes that it has a prerogative to comment on bringing the community together in a political sense, might, as I say, direct its criticisms at those parties because of how they go about much of their business, and the Budget in particular.

I want to remark on the lack of opportunity for the public and the Assembly to comment on such issues as the time frame and detail in the Budget process. The last of the draft departmental spending plans emerged only about 12 January 2011. A response to the Budget is needed by 16 February 2011. That timeframe is hopelessly inadequate, especially if we are to allow key stakeholders to respond. Even when departmental spending plans were seen, the detail was nowhere near adequate. In many cases, key stakeholders do not know where they stand when they look at those documents.

I want to return to my view on the draft Budget. Its first major failing is its lack of an overall plan; I do not know what the Budget is about. Is it just about getting through the next four years, or does the Assembly have any strategic vision? The documentation that appeared with the previous Budget four years ago was an inch thick; compare that with the slim volume that has appeared on this occasion. After four years of bedding in this phase of the Assembly, one would expect that it would have more to say in a focused way about its strategic direction.

Dolores Kelly (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Upper Bann)

Does the Member share my concern that, as yet, there is no Programme for Government? Surely a Programme for Government should have come before the draft Budget was presented to the Assembly?

Declan O'Loan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, North Antrim)

The Member emphasises my point. That is absolutely what I am getting at: what are the Assembly and Executive now about? That is no longer defined. People say that if one does not know where one wants to go, one could end up anywhere. When one ends up somewhere, one has no way of knowing whether that is where one wanted to be. The Assembly is bound to have an economic goal that it wants to reach; however, no real focus towards that goal is presented in the draft Budget.

There are huge variations in departmental spending cuts. The Department for Regional Development’s budget has been cut by 20·6%. As Deputy Chairperson of the Committee for Culture, Arts and Leisure, I am highly critical of the budget for its respective Department, which has been cut by 17·7%. The budget for the Department of Health has been cut by 2·6%. In between, there are many huge variations for which no rationale has been provided.

Departmental spending plans vary hugely in their presentation, size, structure and style. Indeed, in some cases, there is still an absence of saving plans, and plans have not been subject to equality impact assessment. Remarkably, that includes the plan from the Office of the First Minister and deputy First Minister, which one would expect to take the lead. It states that equality impact will be assessed when it comes to look at programmes. I could expand on the absolute inadequacy of that approach. However, I will not.

As I say, there are huge variations in departmental cuts. That comes back to my point that no overall plan has been presented to the Assembly in the draft Budget. How does the draft Budget respond to the Treasury’s cuts of 8% on the revenue side and 40% on the capital side? Largely, those cuts have been passed on. When the previous Budget was created, the phrase that was used by the First Minister and echoed by the deputy First Minister was that it had been “made in Ulster”. This Budget was not made in Ulster: it was made in Whitehall and passed on. For example, the pay freeze on salaries over £21,000 has been replicated. This is not a case of devolved government thinking for itself.

If Members look at the final table in the draft Budget document, they will see that about half of the supposed £842 million is coming from the DSD; and they might ask why. Those are the repayments of Housing Executive debt. That is simply replicating what was there in the past.

The actual changes in the draft Budget are of the order of £400 million, which is about 10% of the £4 billion deficit that we were presented with by the Treasury. This is a Budget that was made in Whitehall; it is not one that was made here by the people for the people.

Sammy Wilson (DUP, East Antrim)

Will the Member give way?

Declan O'Loan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, North Antrim)

I am not sure whether the Deputy Speaker will allow me to give way.

John Dallat (Social Democratic and Labour Party, East Londonderry)

Please bring your remarks to a close.

Declan O'Loan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, North Antrim)

I have to bring my remarks to a close.

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. I will start with some commentary on the education budget. In particular, I urge Members to read the report that the Education Committee sent back to the Department of Finance and Personnel, because, alas, the response given by the Chairperson of the Education Committee was somewhat partisan and edited.

The Education Committee has taken a detailed look at the education budget. With regard to where we are, it makes bleak reading. [Interruption.] Apologies, Mr Deputy Speaker; I am missing the joke.

John Dallat (Social Democratic and Labour Party, East Londonderry)

It seems to be one that is being shared between two.

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. The budget faced by the Department of Education is a very difficult one, without doubt. Some £150 million will be lost in the first year of a four-year budget. In the timescale within which the Department has to work, that is causing potential difficulties, not only due to the size of the cuts, but in the planning for them. I welcome the fact that, by and large, the Department and the Minister have ensured that front line services and jobs have been secured in the first year.

Declan O'Loan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, North Antrim)

Will you give way?

John Dallat (Social Democratic and Labour Party, East Londonderry)

Members must make their remarks through the Chair.

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

By and large, front line services and jobs have been protected in the first year. I also welcome the fact that there has been an appeal for a reallocation of £41 million of capital to revenue. That is a matter that the Executive will have to take seriously when they look at the figures with which the Department of Education has to deal.

Following the Committee’s discussion, one area of concern that I have relates to the particular interest that was paid by some parties to free school meals. Free school meals were referred to as a luxury and as an airy-fairy idea that we cannot afford. I argue that we cannot afford to do without them. It is very well for Members and others to refer to free school meals as luxuries, but the fact is that more and more families are relying on the free school meal entitlement to ensure that their children receive a substantial meal through the day. Although some will argue that it is not the role of the Department of Education to provide nutrition to children, I argue that it is, because a child who is well fed and warm will learn more than one who is hungry and cold.

Declan O'Loan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, North Antrim)

Will the Member give way?

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

Please give me one second. It appears that those Members who have targeted the extension of the free school meals entitlement are politically rather than financially driven. They are driven by a thought process that says that if this is not happening in England, Scotland and Wales, it should not happen here. We are our own bosses on this matter, and I believe that it should happen here.

Declan O'Loan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, North Antrim)

I thank the Member for giving way. I want to go back to his earlier point when he said, if I heard him right, that front line services in the Department of Education would be maintained in the first year. Subsequently, he said that they would be largely maintained in the first year. The figures that I am reading show that the Department of Education’s budget for this year is £1,915 million, and then goes down to £1,807 million in the next year. That is a savage reduction. The overall reduction over the four years is 12·7%. I do not criticise the Minister, necessarily, although I do not know what case she made. Her budget has got a very savage cut.

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

I am aware of the figures in the Department of Education’s budget.

Declan O'Loan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, North Antrim)

Reflecting that figure, how are front line services —

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

Mr Deputy Speaker, I am no longer giving way. The Member had a chance to make his speech. I acknowledge the budgetary outcomes, and I will come to them. However, I urge Members to be aware that the entitlement to free school meals and school uniform grants is vital to low-income families and should not become an easy target for cuts now or in the future.

I move on to the Budget allocations. The Budget is certainly not one that we in Sinn Féin would introduce if we were in a Government that had full economic powers and budgetary control. We have learned many lessons over the past number of months. I hear commentary from the SDLP Benches. We have seen the performance of Fianna Fáil, Fine Gael and whoever the SDLP’s sister party is at the moment — it might be Labour; they swap and change so often that it is hard to keep up with. We will not be taking economic lessons from any of the political parties that the SDLP has aligned itself to.

Dolores Kelly (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Upper Bann)

At least they know about economics.

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

I will not be deflected by the commentary, because I will return to those issues. However, people can be assured that this is not a Sinn Féin Budget. It is a Budget brought about by a coalition Government of an institution that does not have full economic powers and is not in control of its economic destiny. That is the reality. Sinn Féin’s vision of the future will be much more about a society that cares for the most vulnerable, and about bringing forward a Budget that cares for the vulnerable and builds a sustainable economy.

We are discussing what is ungraciously known as the block grant, and how we divide that up. That ignores the fact that tens of millions of pounds — indeed, billions of pounds — of tax and revenue flow from this island to Britain, and that Britain still has economic dominance on this island, which means that we do not have full control of our economic destiny.

Mervyn Storey (DUP, North Antrim)

Will the Member give way?

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

Give me one minute and I will. When we talk about a Budget, let us be conscious of what we are talking about. We are talking about the division of the ungraciously named block grant. We must aspire to something more than that. Surely even those in unionism believe that they are capable of taking control of their own economic levers to move this society forward. I will allow a quick intervention.

Mervyn Storey (DUP, North Antrim)

I thank the Member for giving way. Given the great economic success of the Irish Republic and the Member’s aspirations for a united Ireland, does he want to tell the House where the money would come from if he ever got his way — which he will never get — and we had a united Ireland?

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

Let us agree on one note as I come to the end. I agree that the parties down South made a complete hames of the potential economic wealth that would have benefitted all the people of the island. However, I believe that the people in this Chamber could do as good a job of driving the economy forward as those behind the Whitehall Budget that the Member from the SDLP put forward. I say to the Members opposite: let us take control of our economic destiny, instead of dividing up the ungraciously known block grant.

John Dallat (Social Democratic and Labour Party, East Londonderry)

I call Mr Paul Frew, and I remind Members that we are supposed to be discussing the Budget.

Mervyn Storey (DUP, North Antrim)

On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. I missed the previous comments, but, as you know, I came speedily into the Chamber. I was accused, as Chairperson of the Committee for Education, of making a partisan contribution. Will you refer the comments of the Member to the Speaker in order to clarify that I was reflecting the comments of the Committee? Although that may not suit some people, those were the comments that were made.

John Dallat (Social Democratic and Labour Party, East Londonderry)

You have made your point. I call Mr Frew.

Mitchel McLaughlin (Sinn Féin, South Antrim)

Further to that point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker.

John Dallat (Social Democratic and Labour Party, East Londonderry)

I am not taking any more points of order. I call Mr Frew.

Paul Frew (DUP, North Antrim)

Eventually. I welcome the chance to debate the draft Budget. These are very challenging times and it is a challenging draft Budget to go with those times. The economic landscape has changed dramatically over the past number of years. Many people find themselves unemployed, especially in the private sector. Construction has suffered greatly, as has manufacturing, business and finance. I am very concerned about retail in the coming year, especially our independent retailers, of which there are many in my constituency of North Antrim.

Unemployment in Northern Ireland has more than doubled since 2008, and many in the private sector, if they are fortunate enough to have a job, have had to take a pay freeze or even a pay cut of 10%, 12% or 15%. It is certainly clear that the form of government that we have has not helped the Budget process and, one could argue, it has not helped our country during these challenging times.

Therefore, I support getting back to a voluntary coalition as soon as possible so that government will be much more focused and driven in its policy and decisions. I quote the previous SDLP leader’s words about the “ugly scaffolding” around Stormont. The people of this country deserve that we move as quickly as possible to the point when we can have a voluntary coalition Government.

I turn to the draft Budget. Having talked to many who work in the public sector, I believe that they are prepared to take a share of the pain that the private sector has endured over the past number of years. They are sympathetic to a pay freeze. They realise why that has to be done, and the difficulty that Northern Ireland and the UK face. There is also a one-year moratorium on Civil Service recruitment. That needs to be reviewed because young people are coming through and leaving education. I support that freeze being revisited after the first year.

The employment of external consultants is of great concern to the wider public. There is a desire to exert further downward pressure in the Budget to reduce reliance on external consultants, and I welcome that. I also welcome the transfer of resources from current expenditure to capital investment. That will relieve some of the pressure on the private sector, particularly the construction industry, which will see that not as a shot in the arm, but as less pain than was first thought when seeing the Conservative and Lib Dem plans. I would not say that it is any better than that, but that transfer will aid the building and maintaining of our infrastructure.

The social investment fund, which has £20 million a year to spend on revitalising the most deprived and marginalised communities, and the social protection fund, which has £20 million in the first year and relies on additional receipts after that, will be badly needed to counter the negative outcomes of the welfare reform agenda and to provide assistance and support to those who suffer most as a consequence. I welcome those funds, but we need to see their mechanics: how they work in practice and how that money will get deep down to benefiting the most vulnerable.

Dolores Kelly (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Upper Bann)

I share the Member’s concerns about the most vulnerable. Does the Member share my concern about the health budget taking an immediate hit of £200 million cash out of its budget come 1 April and the impact that that will have on poverty and ill health?

Paul Frew (DUP, North Antrim)

We certainly need to be worried and concerned about that. However, we also have to look at the Budget as a whole and how the Executive have tried to support and protect health as best they can. On that point, if we contrast the attitude of the Health Minister with his colleague the Minister for Employment and Learning, we can certainly see a difference between two Ministers from the same party.

As Members of the House and representatives of our people, we can say to the people that we are in a bad place and that it will be very difficult over the next couple of years. However, a Minister should be able to state that he or she has a plan to get us out of this mess. If Ministers were to say such things, it would be much more encouraging to the public and would instil confidence in the House.