Northern Ireland Assembly, 22 February 2011

341 contributions from 69 members. The official report.

Matters of the Day

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

Mr Gerry Kelly has sought leave to make a statement on the report on the bombing of McGurk’s Bar, which fulfils the criteria set out in Standing Order 24. I will call Mr Kelly to speak for up to three minutes on the subject. I will then call representatives from each of the other political parties, as agreed with the Whips. Those Members will each have up to three minutes in which to speak on the subject. As Members know, there will be no opportunity for interventions, questions or a vote on the matter. I will not take any points of order until the item of business is concluded. If that is clear, we will proceed.

Gerry Kelly (Sinn Féin, Belfast North)

Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. I thank you for the opportunity to speak on this very serious matter.

Yesterday, I attended the launch of the Police Ombudsman’s report on the bombing, which occurred some 40 years ago. It is important to say that, because the report yesterday was the first time in 40 years that the victims of the bombing and their families have been vindicated formally, even though they knew their own innocence. I pay tribute to the families for their dignity, commitment, dedication and unstinting belief in the innocence of their relatives.

Within 12 hours of the explosion, which killed 15 people and injured more than 16 others, the duty officers — three inspectors and a chief superintendent of the RUC — gave a report that compounded the grief of the families. It claimed that the bomb was an IRA bomb and that some of the victims may have been involved in planting it. That report was made despite it very quickly becoming known that there was a loyalist claim for that sectarian bombing, that there was forensic evidence and that there were three eyewitnesses who saw the bomb being planted. Also, the pathologist’s report said that none of the victims had any fragments of the bomb on them, which meant that the bomb was planted in the entrance hall and not in the bar. It is difficult for the families who suffered such grief that this lie went from the RUC report and from the British military, which assisted in it, to politicians who repeated it, including the then Prime Minister, Brian Faulkner, John Taylor and Reginald Maudling, who was the British Home Secretary at the time. It was then briefed to the media.

The present Chief Constable, Matt Baggott, had an opportunity to apologise for the wrong that was done to the families. Instead, he chose to contradict the ombudsman. Instead of showing that we are in a new era of policing and showing leadership in that, instead of apologising, he defended the indefensible. He went back, well before his time here, to something that he may have known nothing about and defended the actions of the RUC at the time, actions that the ombudsman had criticised. In his statement, he closed down the possibility of any further investigations, even though —

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

I remind the Member of the time.

Gerry Kelly (Sinn Féin, Belfast North)

Even though he knew what was ongoing. That is the essence of what I wanted to say. The families showed great dignity in their presentation yesterday but were slapped in the face by the present Chief Constable. That is an abominable and disgraceful way for him to behave.

Nelson McCausland (DUP, Belfast North)

The publication of the Police Ombudsman’s report into the McGurk’s bombing is an important development. Almost 40 years ago, on 4 December 1971, 15 people were murdered in north Belfast. I hope that the publication of the report will bring some closure for those who lost family members and friends in the bombing.

Several things stand out in the report, which brings clarity about how the events of that night unfolded and about responsibility for the bombing. It also confirms that there was no evidence at all of collusion. Through the years, there have been many allegations and accusations of collusion between the police and loyalists in that bombing. However, that matter is now settled.

The report is critical of the shortcomings of the police investigation, and that must be recognised and taken into account. It also notes the context of the time and looks at the police investigation in that context. Immediately after the bombing, a major gun battle took place in the surrounding area in which two policemen were shot, five civilians wounded and an Army major murdered. Account must also be taken of the series of killings in north Belfast before the bombing. A few days before, on 1 December, an innocent young woman was murdered by the IRA, and two policemen — including the first Roman Catholic policeman — were murdered by the IRA on 17 November. Those things strike me about the report.

The grief of thousands of people in Northern Ireland is the same as that of the McGurk’s families. Many of those families are still waiting for closure and for justice. There is much hurt from murders that have not been resolved and from terrorist crimes that have never been pinned to an organisation or individual. Many who carried out terrible acts still walk the streets freely.

There is a question about the second edition of the report; there was an earlier edition some seven months ago. I pose the question: what new evidence emerged that was presented to the PSNI during that period?

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

I remind the Member of the time.

Nelson McCausland (DUP, Belfast North)

What new evidence was produced that influenced that change? Was that new evidence presented to the PSNI?

There is a certain irony about the statement that Gerry Kelly made this morning. The IRA has a lot of information about the murders that it carried out, and there are lots of families waiting for closure. I appeal for people to be honest, to come clean about the past and to help with that process of closure.

Fred Cobain (UUP, Belfast North)

The Ulster Unionist Party welcomes the publication of the ombudsman’s report on the McGurk’s Bar bombing. Like others, I hope that it brings some closure to the families and to the victims of the bombing and to those who were injured and mentally scarred by that atrocity.

Like many, Mr Speaker, you will know that north Belfast was the scene of some horrendous killings during the past 30 years. More than 2,000 people were killed in north Belfast, which gives some idea of the difficulties for the communities in that area. However, I truly believe that no one benefits by creating new antipathies over issues that happened 30 or 40 years ago.

I do not want to get into historical issues; we need to look forward and not back. However, I found it particularly galling for the representative of an organisation that, for 30 years, practised the bombing of bars and the killing of innocent men, women and children from the Protestant community and of their co-religionists to come to the House and lecture it on an issue like this. When I see some of the destruction that was caused in north Belfast by the Provisional IRA, like many others I am galled when I listen to Gerry Kelly. He promoted the bombing of bars and the killing of men, women and children. He promoted that and belonged to an organisation —

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

Order. I ask the Member not to stray away from the subject matter —

Fred Cobain (UUP, Belfast North)

I am not —

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

Order. The Member should not stray from the subject matter that is on the Floor.

Fred Cobain (UUP, Belfast North)

Mr Speaker, I am not straying from the subject matter.

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

Order. The Member really should not challenge the authority of the Chair. I ask the Member to finish. The subject matter is the bombing of McGurk’s Bar.

Fred Cobain (UUP, Belfast North)

Mr Speaker —

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

Order. I understand. Members know that I am pretty liberal about allowing Members to go slightly outside the subject matter. I will allow the Member to continue.

Fred Cobain (UUP, Belfast North)

Mr Speaker, I do not want to continue unless we can talk in the context that everyone wants to talk in.

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

I appreciate what the Member has said.

Fred Cobain (UUP, Belfast North)

We feel sympathy for all the innocent victims of the Troubles. However, it is particularly galling when individuals who belong to organisations that actually practised violence come to the House and talk about the outrage at McGurk’s Bar. Outrages all over north Belfast were supported by individuals in the Provisional IRA, which used the armed struggle as cover for the killing of innocent individuals.

Alban Maginness (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast North)

I pay tribute to the families of those who were killed or injured in the bombing of McGurk’s Bar. They have worked unceasingly to clear the names of those who were the victims of the bombing in 1971. For the past 40 years, they have been rightly aggrieved over the way in which those victims were treated and libelled by the press, some politicians and the police and Army.

It is a moment of vindication for those families, and I pay tribute to them because they never lost their dignity and their thirst for justice. We should also remember that, shortly after the bombing of McGurk’s Bar, the late Mr Paddy McGurk asked publicly that those who carried out that atrocious act should be forgiven. He quoted scripture and said:

“forgive them; for they know not what they do.”

That was testament to his Christian spirit, and it also reflected the Christian spirit of those who campaigned for so long to clear the names of their loved ones and to get a proper investigation into this grievous atrocity.

I am deeply disappointed by the reaction of the Chief Constable. He has explicitly rejected the central finding of the Police Ombudsman’s investigation, which was that there was investigative bias by the RUC. He should have taken the example of the British Prime Minister, David Cameron, when the Bloody Sunday report was published and apologised immediately and without qualification to the relatives of the McGurk’s Bar victims. It is with sadness that I say those things, because I have immense respect for Matt Baggott. He has been badly advised on the issue, and he should reflect carefully on what has been said. Whoever penned that statement and put his name to it did not reflect what I think are the fine qualities that that man has and the leadership that he has given to the PSNI. Unfortunately, it is damaging not just to his standing but to the standing and the reputation of the PSNI.

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

I remind the Member of his time.

Alban Maginness (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast North)

In conclusion, I hope that the Chief Constable will today or as soon as possible meet the relatives of the McGurk’s Bar victims. I reiterate the SDLP’s support for the ombudsman and his office and the authoritative and definitive way in which he has dealt with the matter.

Stephen Farry (Alliance, North Down)

I, too, pay tribute to the determination of the families of the victims of the McGurk’s Bar bombing for their pursuit of the truth over the past 40 years. I also welcome the publication of the Police Ombudsman’s report. The bombing was one of the major atrocities of the Troubles, and the report provides further clarity on what happened and reinforces what has been understood for some time to be the context of the bombing and the source of responsibility.

Although there may not have been any collusion by the police, there were major failings in the assumptions that were made by the police and the quality and nature of the investigation into the bombing. That problem was compounded by political leaders and by the state thereafter. No doubt, that approach compounded the hurt and suffering of those who lost loved ones. Hopefully, the report will bring some closure. Obviously, a Police Ombudsman’s report deals only with one aspect of an investigation, which is how the police interacted, and not with the wider issues. That points to the need for a much wider process for how this society deals with the past. There are many such cases that need to be addressed. We, as political parties, and the two Governments must always be mindful of our duty to ensure that we define a process soon so that we can capture all the different demands for truth and justice.

With regard to the police, although I recognise that there were major failings in the early 1970s, it is worth reminding ourselves that considerable progress has been made with regard to the nature and quality of policing, particularly in the post-Patten period. Although the report on the police is damning, I would like to think that such an episode could not happen today and that, if there were any risk of it happening, we have safeguards in place to ensure that any shift in that direction would be addressed.

It is important that we recognise the families’ determination and the importance for them of closure. We must also recognise that people seek closure for many other cases in Northern Ireland.

Ministerial Statements

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

I have received notice that the Minister for Regional Development wishes to make a statement to the House.

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

A Cheann Comhairle, in compliance with section 52 of the Northern Ireland Act 1998, I wish to make a statement on the tenth meeting of the North/South Ministerial Council in the transport sector, held in Armagh on Wednesday 9 February 2011. The Environment Minister, Edwin Poots, chaired the meeting. He has approved this report and agreed that I make it on his behalf. The meeting was also attended by Pat Carey, Minister for Community, Equality and Gaeltacht Affairs, Transport and Communications and Energy and Natural Resources. Minister Poots welcomed Minister Carey to his first NSMC transport sector meeting.

In relation to the City of Derry airport, it was noted that officials from my Department and the Department of Transport would soon meet on that issue. Progress on the Dublin-Belfast rail link was discussed. It was noted that, since the reconstruction of the viaduct at Malahide, passenger numbers have increased and stabilised. Ministers welcomed the additional stop of the Enterprise service at Lisburn, which is now operational, and noted that a new Newry to Dublin early morning direct service arriving at approximately 8.35 am is provisionally scheduled to commence at the end of March.

Senior officials from the two rail companies made a presentation to Ministers addressing the issues raised in the Enterprise rail seminar report. The two companies are planning measures to be taken forward over the coming 18 months that align with suggestions made in the report, including the provision of wi-fi, a new PA system and improvements in reliability.

We discussed progress on the A5 and A8 road projects. Ministers noted that draft orders and environmental statements were published for the A5 project in November 2010 and for the A8 Belfast to Larne project in January 2011. A public inquiry into the A5 project is anticipated in May or June 2011.

The Council also noted that the cross-border steering group has produced an agreed report and that, subject to final approval by the NSMC plenary, a further request for drawdown of £11 million be made.

The Council welcomed the continuing collaboration on road safety strategies and campaigns and on work undertaken on the mutual recognition of penalty points, the vehicle keeper data exchange pilot scheme and measures to tackle drink-driving, including the possible harmonisation of blood:alcohol concentration levels in both jurisdictions. Ministers discussed co-operation on vehicle standards and welcomed co-operation between the Driver and Vehicle Agency enforcement section, supported by the PSNI, and the Road Safety Authority, supported by an Garda Síochána, and the continuation of the joint intelligence-led targeted operation in border areas for 2011, which targeted buses, taxis, modified cars and goods vehicles.

A report and recommendations related to cross-border community-based rural transport was discussed. Ministers discussed progress on the five priority areas of the all-Ireland freight forum and its proposed future activities. Ministers noted that this work will be taken forward by a steering group comprising the Irish Business and Employers’ Confederation-Confederation of British Industry (IBEC-CBI) joint business council, InterTrade Ireland and senior officials of the Department for Regional Development and the Department of Transport.

We welcomed plans for an all-island bike week 2011 from 18 June to 26 June; a cross-border schools challenge event to be held during the walk-to-school week in 2011; and a pilot personalised travel plan initiative in Adamstown in Dublin and in Galliagh in Derry.

Ministers also welcomed the success of the Department for Regional Development and the Department of the Environment in securing Plugged-in Places funding of approximately £850,000 from the Office for Low Emission Vehicles to support the installation of electric vehicle charging infrastructure. We noted that the Electricity Supply Board will continue to play a role in ensuring the linking of plans throughout the island of Ireland.

As part of the NSMC we considered two papers relating to the work of the North/South Language Body and agreed to designate a person nominated by the two sponsor Departments and agreed by the board of the Ulster-Scots Agency to act as interim chief executive officer of the Ulster-Scots Agency from 21 March 2011, pending the appointment of a substantive chief executive. We also noted that the process to appoint a substantive chief executive has commenced.

We also noted the current position in regard to the core funding organisations undertaken by Foras na Gaeilge. We agreed that, if satisfactory progress is made on implementation, Foras na Gaeilge may continue to provide interim funding to existing core-funded organisations to the end of December 2011. We will seek a further progress report on that at the next NSMC meeting in language sectoral format.

The Council also considered a paper relating to Waterways Ireland, and it approved the granting of a 99-year lease to Offaly County Council for the proposed reconstruction of a cantilevered footway crossing the Grand canal at Cox’s bridge in Tullamore, County Offaly. It also approved the granting of a 35-year lease to the friends of the lake community group for an area of the Shannon waterway at the Lakeside Hotel at Ballina/Killaloe in County Clare to facilitate the upgrading of the existing 50 m jetty, a new jetty extension of 38 m and the construction of a new 50 m walkway.

Michelle McIlveen (DUP, Strangford)

I realise that Minister Carey had many responsibilities to deal with before he left office, but, given that the meeting was in transport sectoral format, will the Minister explain what the North/South Language Body has to do with transport?

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

That is a question that the Member might want to ask of the Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure, who is one of her colleagues. A number of papers required immediate approval. One was to do with the appointment of an interim chief executive, others involved the agreement to allow Foras na Gaeilge to continue to distribute money, and, as I said, some concerned leases on the inland waterways. Those were important matters that could not wait for the next meeting in language sectoral format, so, at the request of the Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure, they were dealt with at the transport sectoral meeting. Sufficient Ministers were available to do that, including Minister Poots and myself, who were the Ministers from the Northern Executive. The equivalent Minister in the South deals with Gaeltacht matters anyway. That means that sufficient legal and institutional capacity was available to deal with those issues, which required immediate decisions. The Member will be aware that there is an election in the South this Friday, so I think that there was a genuine desire on the part of DCAL and the language and inland waterways bodies to have some decisions made immediately. It was appropriate to do that. I think that it occasionally arises that there is some urgency on decisions that have to be made, so they get transferred to the next available sectoral meeting under the North/South arrangements.

Mickey Brady (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. I thank the Minister for his statement. I raised this issue with the previous Minister of the Environment, and it is relevant to my constituency and, indeed, to that of the Minister. The display of speed limits changes from mph to kph when people cross the border. I know that Cooperation and Working Together (CAWT) carried out a study of accidents in border areas and that border areas are particularly susceptible to road traffic accidents. The Minister’s statement referred to harmonising blood:alcohol concentrations in both jurisdictions. It seems to me that the Six Counties and Britain are the only two areas —

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

I encourage the Member to come to his question.

Mickey Brady (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

— in Europe that do not display speed limits in kph. Does the Minister think that adopting that would be a worthwhile exercise?

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

The Member is correct to say that the issue has been raised on a number of occasions. He is also correct to say that accidents and deaths caused by accidents are particularly prevalent in border areas. I am not sure that we have substantial evidence to suggest that there is a connection between the two and that a change in the display of speed limits from mph to kph and the slight difference in the actual speed limits as a result of those measurements is the cause of many of those accidents. Nonetheless, it is a subject that we need to continue to look at.

There has been excellent co-operation across the border on road safety, and it is starting to bear fruit. Certainly this year, people have been heartened by the reduction in the number of deaths, even though it is obviously still too high. Such accidents are a great tragedy for all the families and households involved. As I said, there has been a substantial reduction in the number of deaths, and the Department of the Environment, the Department for Regional Development and the equivalent Department in the South will continue to look at ways to improve that. If that involves looking at the display of speed limits in kph and mph, we will keep an open mind about it.

Danny Kinahan (UUP, South Antrim)

I thank the Minister for his report. He will, probably, have expected me to raise the issue of the drawing down of a further £11 million for the A8 project. There has been an overall spend of millions of pounds to achieve just three minutes’ less travelling time. The traffic numbers on that road are lower than the original figures, and many farms are being destroyed. Has the Minister, at the NSMC meetings, raised the possibility of reducing the specification of the road from that motorway type, so that the A8 can fit through the centre of Ballynure, where there is a very wide section already? If that was done, it would prevent the destruction of the livelihoods of many farmers and would save millions of pounds, which is important at this time.

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

I have seen the situation in Ballynure, and I am very sympathetic to farmers who are losing their lands. Nonetheless, there is a sense that, even though the Member says that there has been an improvement of only three minutes’ travelling time, at certain times in the day, particularly when ferries offload in Larne, traffic can build up substantially and then move on. It is not a morning or an evening rush hour; the times at which ferries arrive at Larne are when significant delays are created.

The road has been presented as is, and there will be an opportunity for a public inquiry. There is the obvious issue, if the route was to continue through Ballynure village, of the separation of the two sides of the village and the related dangers. There have been at least three deaths in Ballynure, and there have been about 10 deaths on the A8 over recent years. Those issues need to be considered and factored into the design of a new road, but there will be an opportunity at the public inquiry for people to present a case in that regard. The project will go ahead, as designed, until the design and the arguments around it and the chosen route have been tested in the public inquiry.

Conall McDevitt (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast South)

I thank the Minister for his statement. I am sure that he shares my concern that average train speeds on parts of the Dublin to Belfast rail link are slower today than they were during the Second World War. Does he agree that, across the island, the need for urgent and significant prioritisation of capital investment in that rail line must now be top of the agenda? Some experts fear that it could become an unsustainable and, regrettably, downturning rail link.

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

I accept that there is a need for ongoing capital investment. Indeed, we were presented with a set of investment proposals from Iarnród Éireann and Northern Ireland Railways, which, at their highest level, amounted to between £700 million and £1 billion in investment. As a member of the Committee for Regional Development, the Member will understand how challenging that would be, set against the context of a 40% cut in our capital budget. There is a very strong desire to continue to improve.

The Dublin to Belfast line is not the only rail line that we have. There is a worrying sense that, if the Belfast to Derry line is not properly invested in, it will have even worse consequences for the future of that line than just low train speeds and efficiency of journey time, which are the issues on the Belfast to Dublin line. Some difficult decisions will have to be made. My concern is to ensure that we keep lines open and then progress until we find the investment to improve the service on those lines.

(Mr Deputy Speaker [Mr Dallat] in the Chair)

A report has been produced, and we received a presentation form Iarnród Éireann and Northern Ireland Railways at the meeting. Improvements are to be made in the efficiency of the stock and in Wi-Fi provision and PA systems. I raised with both companies the issue of information for passengers. When delays are experienced, it is important that passengers understand why they are happening. The Department for Regional Development and the Department of Transport intend to invest as much as they possibly can to improve that service, given the challenging circumstances in which both Departments find themselves. There are challenging circumstances on the Southern side as well. It is the premier service on the island. The predictions are for very substantial growth in the population along the eastern seaboard. The Member will be aware that, as I said in the statement, we have announced a series of improvements, including a stop at Lisburn, an earlier commuter stop at Newry to take commuters into Dublin and ongoing improvements on the line.

Although we would like to make the type of investment that would bring the line up to the desired standard, it is a substantial investment. We have to operate within the finances that are available to us. There is a strong desire to continue to improve that service.

Anna Lo (Alliance, Belfast South)

Given that there will be a change of Government down South and the pending public inquiry on the A5 project, was the future of the A5 project discussed at the meeting? Was there a reconfirmation of their commitment to a financial contribution?

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

The commitment of the current Administration in Dublin has never been in question. It would not have been appropriate to discuss with an existing Government Minister who the future Government might be, because that would almost have assumed that he will be out of office. The predictions are that there will be a change of Administration in Dublin, and we will have to see what they say. I know that the leader of Fine Gael, who, by all accounts, is expected to be the next Taoiseach, has made public commitments to the A5 project. I expect that those will be evidenced, under whatever Administration is elected in Dublin on Friday, at another meeting of the North/South Ministerial Council. Our commitment is certainly there; it is budgeted for. We have an ongoing, established and repeated commitment from the Administration in Dublin, and I expect the new Administration in Dublin to live up to that commitment.

George Robinson (DUP, East Londonderry)

Will the Minister expand, preferably with some detail, on the very short paragraph relating to community-based rural transport, which is a vital service for many in Northern Ireland?

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

A report that was discussed at the meeting made a number of recommendations, including proposals for cross-border interdepartmental policy development; interagency co-operation; the two Administrations working together to explore solutions for dealing with the legislative and regulatory barriers that inhibit cross-border rural community transport; standardisation of the SmartPass and free travel pass; and expanding the remit of the rural transport programme.

As the Member will be aware from previous reports, there was a pilot scheme between Fermanagh and Cavan. It threw up some technical or legislative issues of standards of vehicles and licensing of operators in a cross-border context. The exercise was very useful in exploring some of the issues and difficulties that we face. The report makes a commitment to improve the work that has been done, learn lessons from it, and start harmonising arrangements in the border areas across the range of areas that I outlined.

Barry McElduff (Sinn Féin, West Tyrone)

Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. Ta trí ceisteanna agam don Aire. What is the significance of the publication of the draft Orders and environmental statements for the A5 project? Further to that, will the Minister detail the remaining timeline for the completion of the A5 project? May I also seek an assurance that the Department is listening to those who are will be inconvenienced by the road traversing their land and that they will be properly compensated?

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

The publication of the draft Orders is very significant. Formal assessments of the preferred route, the environmental impacts, the vesting orders and all of those issues are necessary parts of road building. As I have often said in the Chamber when answering questions about roads, the longer part of road building is getting through that process and establishing a firm legal footing for a new road project.

The publication allows us to move to the public inquiry stage, which I have announced will begin in May or June. That inquiry will probably take some time, because this is the biggest road project ever undertaken on the island. I imagine that the public inquiry will have a number of locations along the route to facilitate the very high level of interest. That will allow the statutory Orders that have been published to be tested to see whether they stack up and afford people the opportunity to make their case in relation to the road project.

I am fully aware of the concern in the farming community. It is understandable, given the scale of the project and the large number of farmers and other landowners who are affected. Roads Service and the consultants Mouchel have continued to meet landowners. In addition, a series of public exhibitions were held during the first week of November to keep farmers and the wider public up to date prior to the publication of the draft Orders. Coming from a farming background, I realise the attachment that people have to the land. The project is very welcome, but the people who live along that route have rights, such as the right to adequate compensation for any land loss and the right to proper access to ensure that they continue to make their farms viable. I expect Roads Service and Mouchel to address all those matters in their discussions with landowners.

I am trying to remember the Member’s third question.

Barry McElduff (Sinn Féin, West Tyrone)

It was about the remaining timeline.

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

The remaining timeline will depend very much on whether the public inquiry, which will begin this year, agrees with the proposition from Roads Service and the National Roads Authority in the South. If all that goes according to plan, construction will begin in the next year or so and will conclude in, I think, 2015-16.

John Dallat (Social Democratic and Labour Party, East Londonderry)

I remind Members that we are looking for one question only.

Allan Bresland (DUP, West Tyrone)

I thank the Minister for his statement. What has been done to improve the track on the Dublin to Belfast line to allow for faster train times?

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

A number of areas, some of which are structural, need to be improved, particularly at Knockmore near Lurgan. A number of crossings along the Dublin to Belfast line cause the train to slow down, and the speeds are obviously not what we would like them to be. There is also an issue with the efficiency and reliability of the stock itself. Therefore, improvements are certainly being made to try to improve the efficiency of the engines and the rolling stock and to improve the service on the train.

As per the 2020 vision, the longer-term intention for the Enterprise service is to provide an hourly service with a 90-minute journey time. As I say, a number of track works have been identified, including an additional track should the new transport hub in Belfast go ahead, and that would shave off some time. Given the improvements that have been made to the road between Belfast and Dublin, it is important that the railway keeps up. I always advocate that people should use the railway, where possible, because it is a much more pleasant way to travel. We want to ensure that that is a good experience for people, and that includes faster journey times, which require a very substantial investment. The Departments, North and South, are committed to doing that, but both recognise the very difficult financial circumstances in which the two Administrations find themselves. There is a commitment to try to find the resources to do that in future. In the meantime, we have a progressive, incremental policy of trying to improve the service wherever we can through the vehicles themselves and the services on the train.

Dominic Bradley (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Newry and Armagh)

Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as an ráiteas a chuir sé faoi bhráid an Tionóil inniu. Ba mhaith liom ceist a chur air faoin athbhreithniú atá ar bun ar na heagraíochtaí Gaeilge croí-mhaoinithe. An féidir liom a fhiafraí den Aire an bhfuil sé sásta go dtabharfar san áireamh le linn an athbhreithnithe na cúinsí ar leith a imríonn tionchar ar na heagraíochtaí Gaeilge sa chuid seo den tír i gcomparáid leis na cúinsí atá i bhfeidhm ar na heagraíochtaí sa chuid eile den tír?

I thank the Minister for his statement. The Minister mentioned the languages body, in particular the review of the core-funded Irish language organisations. Is he satisfied that the review being undertaken by Foras na Gaeilge will take into account the different circumstances in which the core-funded Irish language organisations here work compared with those in the other part of the country?

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

The Member will be aware that that is not my area of responsibility, so I am operating on the basis of information that DCAL has given to me. I have been told that a steering committee was established comprising the chairperson and CEO of Foras na Gaeilge and representatives of the sponsor Departments to oversee and monitor progress on the implementation of the review. Two meetings of the steering committee have taken place to date. To ensure communication with key stakeholders during the process, an advisory committee was established in January 2011 comprising representatives from Foras na Gaeilge, the sponsor Departments and the core-funded organisations. One meeting of that advisory committee has taken place to date. I cannot say how satisfactory that has proved. However, I am sure that the Member will be in touch with some of those who are represented on that committee and will have an opportunity, through the Committee for Culture, Arts and Leisure, to make enquiries of the Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure. That is the information that has been given to me to date.

Ian McCrea (DUP, Mid Ulster)

In his statement, the Minister referred to sustainable travel and transport and the welcoming of the successful securing of funding for Plugged-In Places. Given that that deals in part with reducing carbon emissions, has the Minister considered reducing the number of North/South Ministerial Council meetings, thereby playing his part in reducing carbon emissions through less travel? Has he considered using videoconferencing to try to reduce carbon emissions?

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

The Member will be pleased to know that I use less carbon travelling to North/South Ministerial Council meetings than I do to come here. Perhaps the argument is that I should come here less often. As the Member knows, North/South Ministerial Council meetings are held in Armagh in my constituency. Therefore, that is a much shorter journey for me, and a much more pleasant experience to stay in my constituency.

We are continuously looking at ways to reduce carbon emissions. Plugged-In Places, albeit that it is in its very early stages, is an important initiative for the Minister of the Environment, Minister Poots, and me. There will have to be testing to try to get the correct infrastructure for electric cars, and I do not doubt that future Administrations will look at the vehicles Ministers use and whether it is possible to get a successful electric car scheme up and running. Given that part of our Programme for Government contains the ambition to reduce carbon emissions; when the infrastructure, technology and vehicles are widely available, Departments should look towards the use of electric cars.

We have not looked at videoconferencing. Quite a number of people are involved in North/South Ministerial Council meetings; it is not simply the three Ministers. For example, we had a presentation from both railway companies and, as Members can see from the statement, a wide range of issues was discussed. Meetings can sometimes involve eight or 10 officials on each side. Therefore, I do not think that videoconferencing would work necessarily.

Nonetheless, I think that the meetings are important, and their outcomes and product are evident in the reports that are brought back to the Assembly and the Executive. Very useful initiatives come from the meetings, particularly on sustainability, which is an area in which we have picked up quite a bit of information and experience from what has been happening in the South across a range of issues. The Member will be pleased to know that people from Dublin came to talk to us and Belfast City Council about the bike hire scheme that was operated very successfully in Dublin. There has been value, through sustainability and sustainable transport initiatives, in the engagement between both Administrations. However, I am sure that we can look at ways to reduce our carbon emissions while we are doing that.

Gregory Campbell (DUP, East Londonderry)

The Minister mentioned the public inquiry into the A5 and its expected start date. He also mentioned the possible new Government in the Irish Republic and their connection to that. Without pre-empting the outcome of the public inquiry, if it transpires that the full anticipated scheme originally envisaged for the A5 does not proceed, will the Minister ensure that he takes steps to maximise the amount of money coming from the Irish Republic’s Government to make sure that other road schemes may benefit from travel between the Republic and Northern Ireland? We are all interested in promoting cross-border and international travel.

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

I am very pleased to hear the Member’s commitment to that, which some people sometimes doubt. However, he recognises the realities of the north-west in particular, where Derry, Donegal and Tyrone are interdependent. The area functions better as a single region and needs substantial investment in infrastructure to catch up with other parts of the island. Any analysis of infrastructure on the island shows that there is a glaring gap in the north-west, not just on this side of the border but on the Donegal side too. The Member will be pleased that the draft Budget allocation that I have put forward includes almost £0·5 billion of infrastructure investment in the north-west. I think that that is very necessary. I assure the Member that we are operating on the basis that the plans for the A5 as agreed in the North/South plenary meetings between the Executive and the Dublin Government are going ahead and that those plans will survive a new Administration in Dublin. The indications are that they will, but nonetheless we will test that.

However, of the money put forward as part of the development plan in the South, an additional €10 million was identified for cross-border roadworks. The South has also recognised that there is strong value in trying to support an all-Ireland economy and in making sure that we have the ability to connect with each other and to transport goods and services quickly. That enhances business opportunities and also enhances the attractiveness of the island as a whole for investment.

If the A5 picture changes, I will need to have a discussion with the Minister of Finance and Personnel, but I will argue strongly, as the Executive accepted in their Programme for Government, that there is a need to rebalance investment and infrastructure here. The western and border areas in particular have suffered from historical underinvestment. To enhance the economic capabilities of our region and the island as a whole, the Executive need to invest there.

John Dallat (Social Democratic and Labour Party, East Londonderry)

I have received notice from the Minister of Health, Social Services and Public Safety that he wishes to make a statement to the House.

Michael McGimpsey (UUP, Belfast South)

I wish to make a statement following the recent allegations over unsafe clinical practices at Craigavon Area Hospital. It has specifically been alleged that X-rays are not being reported on by appropriately trained staff and that outpatient reviews are being arranged on the basis of patients’ names, with appointments assigned to patients in alphabetical order.

I take all legitimate concerns very seriously. It is my priority to ensure that everyone receiving health and social care is provided with the safe, quality services that everyone deserves.

Following extensive negative media coverage last Thursday, I held an urgent meeting with Mairead McAlinden, the chief executive of the Southern Trust, and John Compton, the chief executive of the Health and Social Care Board. The purpose of the meeting was to clarify the situation and seek assurances that the allegations were unfounded. I have been assured that the claims are unsubstantiated and have only served to cause unnecessary public anxiety.

Let me confirm the current position: in the Southern Trust, as in other trusts, X-rays are examined and assessed by the appropriate clinician and are reported on in accordance with national guidance. However, I am aware of pressures in the radiology service that have resulted in some delays in reporting. All trusts are acting to ensure that they are doing whatever possible to minimise delays. I take the matter very seriously and have asked the Regulation and Quality Improvement Authority (RQIA) to conduct a review on the reporting and handling of X-rays. I will receive the RQIA’s initial report before the end of March and will take action to address the priority issues identified.

The Southern Trust has advised me that it is simply not the case that people are given outpatient appointments in alphabetical order; rather, outpatient appointments are arranged according to clinical priority. That is determined by the clinician in charge of outpatients’ care. It is the right of any member of clinical staff to raise concerns publicly, but it is their responsibility to exhaust all internal mechanisms for raising those concerns first.

It is both concerning and disappointing that a very small number of staff in the Health Service may choose to raise concerns through the media rather than use the systems in place in their workplace. Robust arrangements are in place to ensure that any staff who have concerns about patient safety have ways of bringing them to the attention of senior staff. Those systems have been put in place specifically to allow staff to raise issues and to be assured that action will be taken.

It is true that there are lengthy waits for some outpatient appointments, particularly for review or follow-up appointments, and that is unacceptable. That is why the board and trusts have been set a target to ensure that, by March 2012, all patients must be seen within the timescale determined by their clinician. I expect all trusts to achieve that standard. To help achieve the challenging targets that have been set, I have invested in outpatient services. I provided £7·3 million last year and will provide a further £6·3 million this year to improve waiting times for outpatient services.

No one can have failed to notice that waiting times for a vast range of services have continued to rise over the past year. There are some specialities in which we know that demand has been high and there are ongoing difficulties in meeting targets for new and review appointments. We need to act to ensure that the capacity of trusts can meet the real and justifiable level of demand. That is the board’s responsibility, and I expect it to work with trusts to provide the capacity that is needed to improve waiting times for all patients. I also appeal to patients to do all that they can to attend hospital appointments. Any person who is unable to attend should let the clinic know. By not attending, people are denying others the opportunity to be seen at a hospital clinic. Increasing waiting times should not come as a surprise to anyone. I have warned time and again that cuts to the health budget could only impact on the delivery of services. The fact is that cuts to my budget can be directly linked to the continued increase in waiting times. With the prospect of further severe cuts, the situation will only get worse.

There is no doubt that the Health Service is facing significant and increasing pressure. Staff are stretched to their limits as they strive to meet rising demand and continue to provide high quality care to services. I have met with staff and realise the pressures they are facing. At the same time, they have also had to contend with a constant barrage of negative media coverage, which has left many feeling demoralised. Increased pressures and limited funding have made this a very difficult time for health and social care staff. We are all indebted to the commitment and dedication of staff across health and social care. For them to also have to deal with people calling into question their professionalism and integrity is deplorable. I again appeal to the Assembly and the public to stand by our health and social care service, instead of using it as a political football. It is something that everyone should value, respect and protect.

The founding principle of the NHS is cradle-to-grave healthcare that is free at the point of delivery. We must all decide whether that is worth fighting for.

Jim Wells (DUP, South Down)

I welcome the Minister’s decision to bring in the RQIA to carry out a full review of X-ray services in Northern Ireland. That is what is required. As he knows, the Health Committee will question the Southern Trust and the Belfast Trust about this issue this afternoon. Does he agree that the one thing that could come out of all of this is that we have a set of protocols throughout the five trusts in Northern Ireland as to how X-rays are dealt with, so that someone going into a hospital with a certain condition will know that a certain individual at a very definitive level in the Health Service will examine that X-ray and report on it in a specific time frame? What has come out of all of this is the great variation among trusts in how X-rays are dealt with. If some degree of consistency comes out of the report, it will be good for all of us.

Michael McGimpsey (UUP, Belfast South)

RQIA is looking at the process of reporting in each of the trusts. There is a difference between that and looking at the whole X-ray process. We have invested in a patient administration system, which is new IT. Some of that is very advanced. It has not gone in to all trusts at the same time, but it has worked its way through them. The Western Trust, for example, has its system in place. That is all virtually complete, as I understand it. There has been a differential in rates. That system of information has thrown up variations. That is something that we are already on top of. That is why I have set the target for March next year for all reviews to be seen within the time that is determined by the clinician. All trusts, as I said in my statement, will be required to follow that.

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. I also met the chief executive of the trust, and we had a full and frank discussion about the matters that have been raised. I welcome the RQIA inquiry into the X-rays. We await the result of that inquiry with interest.

The Minister made an interesting comment in his speech. He said:

“I have met with staff and realise the pressures they are facing. At the same time, they have also had to contend with a constant barrage of negative media coverage”.

Is it not the case that the person leading that “negative media coverage” is you, Minister? However, I welcome your comment that we should stop using our Health Service as a political football. If we can all agree with that, including you, we can move forward —

John Dallat (Social Democratic and Labour Party, East Londonderry)

May we have the question, please?

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

The question is this, Minister: there has been much speculation that the Minister is about to walk away from the Executive. I call on him to walk into the Executive and conduct a positive engagement with his Executive colleagues. Can he reassure the House that that is his plan?

Michael McGimpsey (UUP, Belfast South)

I am not sure of the relevance of that diatribe as far as my statement is concerned. However, it is an example of using the Health Service as a political football. To use a statement on X-rays to make political points and make —

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

That was in your statement.

Michael McGimpsey (UUP, Belfast South)

If Mr O’Dowd —

John Dallat (Social Democratic and Labour Party, East Londonderry)

Order. Will the Minister resume his place?

Michael McGimpsey (UUP, Belfast South)

Is it by leave of Mr O’Dowd?

John Dallat (Social Democratic and Labour Party, East Londonderry)

I said yesterday that I would have no hesitation in naming anyone who shouts across the Floor. That applies equally, irrespective of who it is. Minister, continue.

Michael McGimpsey (UUP, Belfast South)

Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. That was a classic example of using the Health Service as a political football, and shame on Mr O’Dowd for making clearly political points. Being part of an Executive is a two-way thing. You cannot, for example, be part of an Executive negotiating a Budget only to discover that Budget negotiations are called off for several months and a Budget that was supposed to have been agreed last autumn does not get agreed until a week before Christmas. Two weeks before Christmas, all goes quiet and then you are called to belt up to Stormont Castle one night, where this is thrown at you. That is an example of being excluded. It is not about inclusion: it is about exclusion. I have fallen into John O’Dowd’s trap. I have talked politics — shame on me for doing that too — but shame on Mr O’Dowd, because that seems to be all he is interested in.

John McCallister (UUP, South Down)

I welcome the Minister’s statement. Like others, my colleague Mr Gardiner met the Southern Trust over this very issue, and, like other Members, I welcome the RQIA’s involvement. Will the Minister elaborate on existing pressures on radiology? Will such pressures increase with the Budget settlement?

Michael McGimpsey (UUP, Belfast South)

As far as the issues are concerned, the claim that patients were arranged alphabetically is nonsense. The claim — carried and supported by politicians on various media programmes — that clerical staff were reading X-rays was, again, nonsense. There are issues regarding the review, and I have set a target that by March next year those reviews will be carried out according to the clinician who determines when that will happen.

There is a process: the X-ray is taken; the appropriate clinician reads it and determines the action; and then a radiologist reads the X-ray at the end, in what is called the gold standard, to make sure that nothing has slipped through. We will make sure that that process is ongoing. However, the fact is that the Health Service is underfunded. The fact is that, come 1 April, the Health Service will, in effect, enter chapter 11. That is because — I have explained this over and over — pressures on the Health Service will become such on 1 April that, coupled with the insufficient money allocated, if it were a business, it would be bankrupt.

I know that the Budget was described as an early Christmas present by the Finance Minister, and I heard the First Minister say that it was obscene for me not to cheer it. He wants me to cheer for the bankruptcy of the Health Service, for this early Christmas present. If that is their idea of an early Christmas present, I would not like to spend Christmas in the Robinson household.

Tommy Gallagher (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

I thank the Minister for his statement and commend the chief executive of the Southern Trust for reacting speedily last week when the issue came into the public domain. I met the chief executive last Wednesday.

I want to ask the Minister about the new target for review appointments with all the trusts. The timescale for that is more than 12 months away, and that will be worrying for patients who are caught up in this. Given that it will take a year to get to grips with it, is that just confirming that there is a mountain of review cases across all the trusts?

Michael McGimpsey (UUP, Belfast South)

No. The Member is right: this is a huge issue, and there are one and a half million appointments per annum. The Southern Trust alone is looking at 300,000 a year. So, there are waits, and, although I understand that they are not huge numbers, the numbers are enough to give us concern.

Like the Member, I talked to Mairead McAlinden last week, and she was seriously offended at and concerned about the way that the avalanche of negative publicity has suddenly hit her trust. The service is the staff who run it, and the staff take those comments personally. It is as if we are calling them and their professionalism into question. I have been at pains over and over again not simply to praise the staff but to say in every report, whether in the Western Trust, Altnagelvin or Belfast, that we do not question the professionalism of the staff, which is first-class. We are lucky to have the health and care staff that we have in Northern Ireland.

We will have the review part of the X-ray process fixed by March next year. That is the target. I anticipate that it will be done faster than that, and I have invested money in the process. I wish I could have invested more. However, huge numbers are involved; that is the issue.

Anna Lo (Alliance, Belfast South)

The Minister is right to say that health and social care staff are under a lot of pressure and are going through a difficult time. However, is it not a bit hypocritical of the Minister to condemn the staff who have come out to criticise poor practices in the trusts when he has time and time again spoke out in public about the state of affairs in his Department? Has he not set the trend of a wave of negative comment about the NHS?

Michael McGimpsey (UUP, Belfast South)

I reject that entirely. In fact, I have been an advocate for the Health Service from the day and hour that I walked into this job. I regret to say that Anna Lo was one of those who found herself able to go through the Lobby to vote for cuts to the health budget. That is profoundly regrettable. Some of that negative publicity comes from the fact that our staff are struggling to provide a service because it is under-resourced and underfunded and because they are stretched.

The processes for complaints are well laid down. Staff have a duty in their contract to report examples of where a patient’s care is unsafe or the quality is not perfect. Most of them do that. Regrettably, some of them — very few —prefer to report to radio and television and other media. That is by no means helpful because it takes everybody by surprise. The chief executive certainly had no prior warning of this at all. From looking at the records, they were not aware of anybody in the trust who was voicing those concerns either to the chief executive or to the medical director. There is an issue there.

Alex Easton (DUP, North Down)

Can the Minister explain why members of staff felt the need to go to the media if their claims have not been substantiated? Can he also tell us why outpatient clinics that have been cancelled by consultants have yet to be tackled? If those clinics went ahead, surely there would not be a rise in the outpatient waiting list.

Michael McGimpsey (UUP, Belfast South)

I answered the first part of his question when I responded to Anna Lo, and I have answered it on a number of occasions. Maybe the Member was not listening.

We have a loyal and professional core of consultants in our hospitals who provide a very good service. This is not the first time that I have heard such attacks on consultants, and they are not helpful. There are issues with cancelled clinics, and we have targets. We have invested in and are working on all those areas, not least the issue of “Did not attends”. With the best will in the world, clinics will get cancelled, not least because we are dealing with large numbers of sick people who will often take sick on the day of their appointment.

Sue Ramsey (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. As other Members have done, I welcome the Minister’s statement; it is important that he brings such information to the Assembly. It also saves me from trying to table questions for oral answer to get more information.

I hope that the Minister will not say that I am being political. I will ask two substantive questions based on his statement. The Minister said that the X-rays are seen and assessed by the appropriate clinician. Will he give more detail on what he means by the appropriate clinician, and is the definition of the appropriate clinician the same in other trusts? He went on to say that there were pressures in radiology that resulted in some delays. What were those pressures, and do those pressures exist in the other trusts?

Michael McGimpsey (UUP, Belfast South)

I will answer the final question first. For example, at Altnagelvin Area Hospital, where there was an issue with reporting, 13 consultant radiologists should be in post, but the hospital had nine, as a result of retirements, natural wastage and so on. Consultant radiologists are difficult to find. It is not a case of putting an advert in the paper and recruiting one; it is a specialised profession. Keeping up the numbers is also an issue in the Southern Trust. It would be nice to have more than is needed, but, because the budget is so stretched, that is not possible.

When an X-ray is taken, the appropriate clinician is the doctor or physician who has ordered the X-ray, and they will do the diagnosis and determine the treatment that is to be carried out. After all of that is over, a consultant radiologist will read the X-ray in a review process, to filter out any X-rays that have slipped through. Waiting times for those reviews are longer than the clinicians are prepared to accept. That is why the clinicians say to me that the service could be or is becoming unsafe, and, as the Minister, I must react to that.

Sydney Anderson (DUP, Upper Bann)

I thank the Minister for his statement. The allegations that have surfaced over the past week have caused great concern to many people in the area and, indeed, further afield. Along with my colleague Stephen Moutray and David Simpson MP, I have been given the opportunity to discuss those concerns at length with the chief executive of the trust. Can the Minister confirm that the procedures for reading X-rays in Craigavon Area Hospital were put in place for clinical reasons and not for financial reasons?

Michael McGimpsey (UUP, Belfast South)

I can so confirm to Mr Anderson. The process that operates is a national process. It operates in all trusts and, as I understand it, is operational throughout the UK. It is tried and tested, and, as a general rule, it works extremely well.

Dolores Kelly (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Upper Bann)

I thank the Minister for his statement. I also took the opportunity to meet Mrs McAlinden, and I commend her on how she moved quickly to reassure members of the public who were rightly concerned about last week’s news. However, it is important that we do not shoot the messenger, whether that is the Minister or, indeed, the person who went on the airwaves last week. As I understand it, the consultant filled out and sent through the incident forms and there was a communication problem to which Mrs McAlinden held her hand up. No one got back to the consultant on the reviews.

It is my understanding that the review system will itself be reviewed. A consultant does not need to see all reviews, particularly if all tests results are clear. Indeed, I understand that, given the higher population in Craigavon and in all the Southern Trust area and given the growing population and the growing older population, there is a need for additional resources in the Southern Trust area —

John Dallat (Social Democratic and Labour Party, East Londonderry)

Ask a question, please.

Dolores Kelly (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Upper Bann)

Is there any progress on the capitation formula in relation to the Southern Trust, which, as I understand it, has been disadvantaged thus far? Under the capitation formula, was the money going to the Belfast area?

Michael McGimpsey (UUP, Belfast South)

In Belfast, they could make a counter-argument as far as capitation is concerned. It is a set formula, and I will write to Mrs Kelly with more detail to set the situation straight.

As far as the reviews of X-rays are concerned, those are being carried out by the RQIA. I have asked it to report quickly to me, and I anticipate that it will do that. Most initial X-rays and reviews are seen in a timely manner. That is the situation, but I am looking to improve it.

Mickey Brady (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

I thank the Minister for his statement. The Minister said that it is the right of any member of staff to raise concerns publicly, but it is their responsibility to go through the internal procedures first. In this case, a senior clinician apparently felt the need to go public. Mrs Kelly mentioned the internal mechanisms that are followed, and, in this case, apparently, they were followed but were not followed up. Does that not indicate that issues need to be addressed in the internal system? That would negate the need for senior clinicians to go public.

Michael McGimpsey (UUP, Belfast South)

As I have indicated, there are adequate, robust processes in the system to allow staff to do that, and staff normally avail themselves of that. It is regrettable that staff or individuals feel that it is better to go on a radio show, rather than to avail themselves of that process.

The Southern Trust is not aware of anybody in the trust who has voiced those concerns and brought them to the medical director or to the chief executive. That is the point.

Tom Buchanan (DUP, West Tyrone)

I am disappointed that the Minister sought to politicise the issue by attacking the Finance Minister and the First Minister. However, I hope to rise above that and stick to the Minister’s statement.

I do not think that the Minister has been overly clear in the answers that he has given. He expressed disappointment in his statement regarding staff going to the media when they should have used systems that were already in place, but I suggest to the Minister that it is clear that the systems that were in place were not working. What does he intend to do to ensure that there is a robust system in place that is fit for purpose, so that consultants and staff are confident that it is working and will work for them if they use it?

On increased waiting times, is it not partly the case that that has been brought about by cancelled clinics at hospitals to allow the Minister’s targets for first-time appointments to be met?

Michael McGimpsey (UUP, Belfast South)

As I said, we have a robust system in place. Staff avail themselves of it, and, overwhelmingly, that is the normal way to go forward.

Waiting times are slipping because of the money that is available in the system to operate it. The shortage of five consultant radiologists at Altnagelvin Area Hospital alone is an example. If staff are not available, those who are available have to work harder and are stretched more. That is the situation up and down the Health Service.

John Dallat (Social Democratic and Labour Party, East Londonderry)

I remind Members that we are looking for one question, not two for the price of one.

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. Obviously, I welcome the RQIA investigation as the eventual recognition of the problem. Minister, you referred to short-term solutions to address backlogs in various trusts. What is the long-term solution? There is a workforce planning issue and a problem with recruitment of radiologists. What is the long-term strategy to tackle that?

Michael McGimpsey (UUP, Belfast South)

Mrs O’Neill, the long-term solution, which is in your hands and the hands of the House, is to properly fund the Health Service. If you are not prepared to properly fund the Health Service, you will get — [Interruption.]

John Dallat (Social Democratic and Labour Party, East Londonderry)

Order.

Michael McGimpsey (UUP, Belfast South)

I am being shouted at from both sides —

Tom Elliott (UUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

The partnership.

Michael McGimpsey (UUP, Belfast South)

It is the DUP/Sinn Féin partnership: Mrs O’Neill and Mr Frew, Lisburn and Magherafelt or wherever. Absolutely. Beauty and the beast. [Laughter.]

Tom Elliott (UUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

Which is which?

Michael McGimpsey (UUP, Belfast South)

Oh, I am quite clear which is which.

Of course, the issue, which I keep repeating, is the one that the First Minister got awfully excited about yesterday. It will not go away. Everybody must face up to that. If you want a Health Service that is fit for purpose, it has to be funded. If you want change and have to make changes, you have to make investment in order to get there.

John Dallat (Social Democratic and Labour Party, East Londonderry)

That brings to an end friendly questions to the Minister of Health.

Executive Committee Business

John Dallat (Social Democratic and Labour Party, East Londonderry)

I call on the Minister of Finance and Personnel to move the Consideration Stage of the Budget Bill.

Moved. — [The Minister of Finance and Personnel (Mr S Wilson).]

John Dallat (Social Democratic and Labour Party, East Londonderry)

No amendments have been tabled to the Bill. I propose, therefore, by leave of the Assembly, to group the 7 clauses of the Bill for the Question on stand part, followed by four schedules and the long title.

Clauses 1 to 7 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Schedules 1 to 4 agreed to.

Long title agreed to.

John Dallat (Social Democratic and Labour Party, East Londonderry)

That concludes the Consideration Stage of the Budget Bill. The Bill stands referred to the Speaker.

Alex Attwood (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast West)

I beg to move

That the Licensing and Registration of Clubs (Amendment) Bill [NIA 19/09] do now pass.

I want to make some preliminary comments before I deal with the body of my contribution. The first is that access to alcohol, conditions that relate to that and penalties that would arise from a failure to apply the law diligently are issues that will occupy the minds of the Assembly, the Minister for Social Development and the Committee for Social Development in the future. Although the Bill will make some useful contributions to all of that business, access to alcohol and conditions that relate to it will require further substantial consideration by the next Assembly mandate. I look forward to that happening.

As is well established, the financial costs alone of alcohol consumption are substantial. One estimate suggests that the cost to the health budget, the police budget and other budget lines, particularly in the context of family breakdown and such issues, and to the overall Northern Ireland exchequer is around £700 million. Therefore, over and above the impact of alcohol on the lives of individuals, families and communities, there is a substantial financial cost, which is measured in hundreds of millions of pounds. That is a further imperative for the matter to occupy the minds of the Assembly in the future.

Last week, I met doctors and people from psychiatric backgrounds to talk about the proposal for the minimum pricing of alcohol. They made the point that alcohol and the use and abuse of alcohol is a contributory factor to the levels of self-harm and suicide in Northern Ireland. Given recent events and without prejudice to what happened in respect of any of those matters, that fact alone is a reason why the issue of alcohol should be more fully addressed.

To conclude my opening comments, I want to make it clear that my mind and, I think, the minds of any Social Development Minister and the Executive should be to get the balance right between, on the one hand, proper enforcement and regulation of the alcohol business in Northern Ireland in all its expressions and, on the other hand, trying to adjust the law, where appropriate, to enable trade to continue, jobs to be sustained and opportunities to open up. I acknowledge that that is a fine balancing act, but it has been my job to achieve a balance between proper regulation and appropriate enforcement when making proposals in respect of licensing in Northern Ireland, not only for alcohol but for Sunday opening hours and gambling proposals, while trying to ensure that shops, bookmakers and licensed premises are able to trade in a fair and balanced way and in a way that sustains jobs and creates opportunities for economic and tourist development.

I turn now to the Final Stage of the Bill. As Members know, the Bill was first brought to the House by Margaret Ritchie. I acknowledge that all the licensing initiatives that I have been able to take forward have had their birth in the intentions and ambitions of Margaret Ritchie as Minister. In many ways, I have been the sweeper of the initiatives that she led during her three years as Minister. When she introduced the Bill, she had at the heart of her intentions two principles, namely that the law should be upgraded and, where appropriate, toughened to make it more flexible.

At Second Stage, I assured Members that I would take a fresh look at the Bill to ensure that we achieved the proper balance that Margaret Ritchie talked about. Since then, I have had meetings with a number of representative bodies, discussed matters with a variety of Members and followed with interest the Committee Stage of the Bill. With the support of my Executive colleagues, we have a Bill that looks somewhat different to that first introduced in the House, but it is no less fit for purpose.

I take this opportunity to express my thanks to the Executive, to the Chairperson and members of the Social Development Committee for their comprehensive scrutiny of the Bill and to the representatives of all the bodies who spoke to me and presented evidence to the Committee. As I said, I acknowledge the officials, especially those in the Department for Social Development but also those in other Departments, who helped draft the amendments that are now in the Bill.

One of the provisions that attracted media and wider comment was the issue raised at Second Stage when Members asked questions, again, about cheap alcohol and whether the Bill could be amended to tackle that problem. Even at a late stage, with the understanding of the Assembly that I have acknowledged, I was able to have provisions on irresponsible promotions and pricing included in the Bill. The introduction of those provisions and the forthcoming regulations will be a positive step in curbing bad practice. Although it is not possible for the details of those regulations to be determined during the current mandate, I urge my successor to ensure that the process is completed at the earliest opportunity. Although it is not contained in the Bill, the issue of minimum pricing for alcohol is still firmly on my agenda and on that of Minister McGimpsey. We will shortly launch a public consultation on the introduction of minimum pricing in Northern Ireland.

Given the immense, dramatic and tragic impact of alcohol abuse on individual, family and community lives, I hope that the consultation will be the catalyst for the endorsement of minimum pricing by a future Assembly. I hope that that will be done at the earliest opportunity in the next mandate.

Last week, I met the doctors to whom I previously referred. They represent the spread of the doctors’ professions in Northern Ireland: the psychiatric; the clinical; and the GPs. They stressed that, in their view, minimum pricing, set at an appropriate level, was one of the critical interventions needed to address not just alcohol abuse but all issues impacting on many categories of vulnerable people, including young people, in Northern Ireland. I hope that the Assembly will be the first part of these islands to put in place a minimum alcohol pricing regime.

As I said at Further Consideration Stage, the minimum alcohol pricing regime will be set at a level that actually makes an impact. There was comment, even in the past 24 hours, from good authority in Britain, that what the London Government are proposing on minimum pricing in England is not going to be adequate enough to curb access to cheap alcohol and the abuse that can arise therefrom. I therefore hope that the Assembly will not only take the lead on these islands but will have a minimum pricing regime that sets minimum pricing levels in a way that has the desired impact.

The Bill’s broad aim is to help tackle some of the problems associated with the misuse of alcohol and the resulting impact on ill health and crime. Licensing law alone cannot solve those problems, but I strongly believe that the Bill can make a positive contribution. At Further Consideration Stage, I mentioned that I was to meet the Chief Constable on the Wednesday of that week. I actually met him on the Tuesday of that week. Owing to a family bereavement, Minister Ford was not able to join me.

I raised with the Chief Constable the specific cases, naming the bars, clubs, nightclubs and other premises that, it was alleged, were on the wrong side of the law in various ways. I think that 14 or 15 different premises were named. On the basis of the information provided to us, which we believed to be reasonable and reliable, I brought each and every one of those matters to the Chief Constable’s attention.

He put up some defence on a number of the matters, but I made the point to him that, whatever the enforcement difficulties might be, and whatever might be the mind of a resident magistrate when it comes to matters referred to the court arising from an alleged breach of licensing law, the new licensing regime, and the imposition of penalty points in particular, can create a further opportunity to ensure that those licensed premises that heretofore might have been on the wrong side of the law but did not suffer the full impact of the law for breaches get their act together. If they do not get their act together, the police, through the penalty points regime and with the assistance of the courts, can put manners on those few pubs, clubs and other premises that are alleged to be in breach.

The new closure powers are perhaps not as all-encompassing as some Members would have liked. People know the history of that issue. Nevertheless, the powers are a significant improvement on those currently available to the Minister of Justice. The Department of Justice will issue guidance for the PSNI on its closure powers. The guidance will assist senior police in interpreting and implementing their new powers in the interests of public safety and the prevention of disorder.

The penalty points system aims to deal with persistent offenders, and any licensed premises or registered club that accumulates 10 or more penalty points within two or three years will have its licence or certificate of registration suspended by a Magistrate’s Court for up to three months.

The proof of age provisions will, for the first time in licensing legislation, specify acceptable proof of age documents, and I hope that that will prove an effective tool in combating underage drinking. Its other main value is in helping licensed premises and registered clubs charged with an underage offence to prove to a court that all due diligence was used to avoid the commission of the offence. Promotions and pricing provisions in the Bill will allow the Department to prohibit or restrict irresponsible promotions and specified pricing activities in all licensed premises and registered clubs.

Those new powers will be steps in addressing the availability of cheap alcohol and provide a positive contribution to the whole-population strategic approach to tackling alcohol related harm.

The Bill will also, however, create more flexibility for registered clubs, getting the appropriate balance between regulation and flexibility. The flexibility will provide for easements in how clubs’ accounts are kept and audited and pave the way for new regulations and guidance that will make accounting requirements for clubs more flexible. It will reduce the maximum fine for many accounts-related offences, permit — in sporting clubs only — young people to remain in the bar for an additional hour after 9pm and provide for an increase in the number of occasions when a club may apply to the PSNI for a late bar. Those easements will help clubs, especially sporting clubs, to maintain profitability and continue the valuable contributions they make to their communities.

The Licensing and Registration of Clubs (Amendment) Bill is a good piece of legislation. I commend it to the House and very much hope that the development of licensing and club legislation will be a key feature of the new mandate.

Simon Hamilton (DUP, Strangford)

It is a pleasure to be able to speak at what is the Final Stage of this Bill and, as the Minister outlined in his opening remarks, the end of a very lengthy, detailed and sometimes frustrating process, which has led to the culmination of the Bill today.

Just as he inherited the Bill as Minister, I sort of inherited it as Chairperson. I am sure it is no coincidence that we now have a Bill at a time when it looked as though there was not going to be a licensing Bill passed at all. Modesty is obviously pouring forth liberally. There was, at times, a very strident debate in the Committee about the Bill, and in the Chamber. Sometimes there were elements of comedy verging on farce, but eventually we are here, and we have got what we set out to achieve. The Bill is before us and, hopefully, will be ratified today.

I thank everyone involved in making the Bill a reality. I particularly offer my thanks to those who came forward to the Committee during our very important, lengthy and detailed Committee Stage to give evidence orally and in writing. Without that evidence, many of the improvements that are in the Bill would not have been possible.

I thank Department staff for always being on hand and able to answer our queries. I also thank the Committee staff, who, like a lot of Committee staff in this Building, were burdened with lots of legislation at the one time and had a balancing act in juggling lots of different pieces of legislation at one stage. I do not think that members knew what we were doing from one week to another, whether licensing, housing or caravans. We were kept very busy at that time and would not have been able to achieve what we did without the help of our Committee staff.

I also pay tribute to colleagues who, similarly, endured all that legislation at that one time but always stayed and remained focused on the job in hand, trying to critically scrutinise the legislation and improve the Bill. You see the final product that is before us today.

We had difficulty balancing lots of different interests in the Bill because, at the end of the day, we are talking about licensing. There are businesses, clubs and sporting interests involved in that, and sometimes those interests clashed and competed in a way that made it difficult for the Committee to find the best balance. I think that we have achieved a fair balance. It may not be to everyone’s liking, but that is often the way with legislation when you are trying to balance those very real and competing interests.

We had very strong, often differing, views in the Committee on different aspects of the Bill, but the debate was always conducted in a mature and adult way. Ultimately, the Committee found positions on most issues that it could agree on, if not individual members’ optimum position then at least one that they could be happy with.

There is much to welcome in the Bill. Clauses 1 and 7 deal with closure powers. Those are powers that I hope are never used. Evidence from other jurisdictions suggests that there has been little need for similar powers to be used, and I hope that that is the case here as well. I hope that the very existence of the powers on the statute book will encourage those few establishments that are, perhaps, badly behaved, or allow bad behaviour to get out of control on their premises, to look at their actions, look at their management, look at their structures and try to deal with the problem in a way that means that we do not have to exercise closure powers and deal with all the various difficulties that come with that.

One aspect that is important in achieving that is good guidance for the Police Service, so that it knows when and how to act and does so in an appropriate and proportionate manner in exercising the power. In some ways, we are gifting quite considerable powers to the police through the passage of those two clauses in particular. We know why we are doing that, but one does not want to see them abused in any way by the police. We want to see them used in a proportionate manner and for the purposes for which they were intended.

Clauses 2 and 8, which deal with penalty points, are useful tools to have at our disposal. However, something important needs to be said, which the Minister touched on. Two things need to happen. First, we need clear guidance for the pub and hotel sector on one hand and the clubs sector on the other about their rights and responsibilities. At different stages, we have teased out the confusion out there about different aspects of the licensing law. Clarity on the responsibilities and requirements of the licensed sector is vitally important. Secondly, there is no point in having a penalty points regime on the books if we are not enforcing it. We either have a strong licensing regime or we do not; there is no point in legislating to increase powers and controls if they are not enforced.

I welcome the Minister’s report of his meeting with the Chief Constable, and I hope that it bears fruit. We are talking about a minority of licensed establishments, a handful or maybe one or two in some areas, but the powers that are enhanced through the Bill need to be enforced properly or else there is little point in legislating in the way that we are.

The clauses that will get the most attention in future will be those on irresponsible drinks promotions. The Committee probably devoted most time to trying to come up with a number for how many late night licences should be available to registered clubs, but the most significant parts of the Bill, beyond a shadow of a doubt, are the clauses on irresponsible drinks promotions.

The Minister was very kind in his comments yesterday about the strength and influence of the Committee on the Housing (Amendment) (No. 2) Bill. I hope that he agrees that the clauses on irresponsible drinks promotions are a clear demonstration of the strength and influence not just of the Committee but of the House. I would not say that the Minister was embarrassed into including those clauses — he can answer that for himself — but the pressure that was exerted by Members from all sides of the House during Second Stage certainly had an effect. During that debate, we welcomed the Bill, in as far as it went, but felt that it did not go far enough. We felt that we could not do some of the things that we were proposing to do, including extending the number of late night licences, without addressing the most inherent social and health related problems in our society, which are caused by the availability of cheap alcohol.

The Minister outlined some of those social and health related problems — indeed, antisocial behaviour problems are also related to the availability of cheap alcohol — so I do not want to go back over them. However, we all know from our own localities the devastating impact that alcohol can have on individuals, families and communities. The clauses on irresponsible drinks promotions and the ability to outlaw such promotions are a major step in the right direction. However, it is not the end of the journey, and there are a lot of other issues that we need to look at.

The issue of minimum pricing has been raised, which is a difficult subject to deal with, but it must be grasped. There is also a need for us to re-evaluate as a society and educate people better about the proper use and consumption of alcohol.

I hope that we never have to exercise that power or to bring forward regulations that outlaw certain promotions. I hope that the industry will see what is being done today and will take it upon itself to excise its worst excesses. We can all point to bad examples in different localities of alcohol being sold in an irresponsible way. I hope that the industry catches itself on and voluntarily outlaws irresponsible promotions, without the need for the Assembly to introduce regulations.

However, I repeat my earlier words of caution. We should not be overzealous. We must specifically target irresponsible drinks promotions, not promotions that are not targeted at those who would be consuming alcohol in an irresponsible way. I was buying petrol this morning, and the till had a TV screen that flashes up promotions. I will not name the shop for fear of giving it free advertising, but the screen showed the type of promotion that I referred to during the Bill’s Consideration Stage. It offered two bottles of a certain brand of wine for £9, which I do not think that anybody would consider to be particularly irresponsible. However, the next advert was for two bottles of strong cider, which were so big that I do not think that I could hold them in one hand, for £5. That shows the difficulty that exists, and we cannot say that a bundle at a certain price should be outlawed. Most people would say that one of those promotions was responsible and the other was clearly irresponsible. We need to be cautious when exercising this power, if indeed we have to, that we do not throw the baby out with the bath water and that we do not punish those who do not deserve to be punished.

As I said, this is not the end of the Assembly’s journey in dealing with alcohol matters. In fact, I think that it is probably only the start. This Bill is a good start. It provides a fair balance. It is much more effective and has been significantly improved by the processes of this Assembly. Those include the debate at Second Stage, the Bill’s Committee Stage and the evidence that was taken by the Committee, the debates at Consideration Stage and the amendments that were tabled, debated, discussed and passed. With that in mind, it is a pleasure for me to be able to speak during the Bill’s Final Stage and to support its passage.

Mickey Brady (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. The Minister and the Chairperson of the Committee have already addressed many, if not all, of the major issues. In the case of the Chairperson, modesty does become him.

The Bill led to a fair amount of discussion in the Committee, and there was some disagreement and agreement. Committee members who felt strongly about alcohol and its use did not allow that to colour their decisions. They approached the Bill and the discussions in a measured way, which is to their credit. I thank the Committee staff, the people who gave evidence and presentations — those were very useful — to the Committee, and the departmental officials who provided good guidance on the Bill.

The whole purpose of the Bill is to control access to alcohol. The Minister pointed out the adverse effects that alcohol has in our society, including its impact on our health and policing budgets and, unfortunately, its role in self-harm and suicide. The greatest issue was in getting the balance right. Enforcement and regulation require a balance to be struck, because jobs and businesses will be affected, and that was borne in mind by everyone when looking at the issues that are addressed in the Bill.

The provisions that deal with irresponsible drinks promotions are to be welcomed. That is obviously an issue, and there was a lot of adverse publicity around irresponsible drinks promotions and the knock-on effect that they have inside and outside premises.

The minimum pricing policy and regime will be welcomed. The Minister alluded to a joint consultation with the Health Minister, which will also be welcomed. Minimum pricing will impact on the amount that people drink. Approximately 78% of alcohol is now consumed in the home, with only 20% to 25% consumed in licensed premises. That needs to be borne in mind.

The aim of the Bill is to reduce the impact of alcohol. The Minister referred to a meeting with the Chief Constable about naming and shaming bars and nightclubs. Part of the difficulty with the Bill is that there is no definition of nightclubs; most are in hotels with residents’ bars. The penalty points regime will go some way towards ensuring compliance, with a three-month suspension when the maximum penalty points have been accrued, and the proof of age provisions will go some way towards preventing underage drinking. Again, the prohibition of irresponsible drinks promotions is welcome.

I also welcome the flexible approach taken to striking a balance on how accounts are kept in clubs because most of the people involved do it voluntarily, with changes of committee every so often. There was discussion, some of which may have been considered contentious, about sporting clubs allowing children on their premises until 10.00 pm. However, the sporting clubs that gave evidence put their case forward firmly and gave good reasons why the extra time should be allocated.

The number of extended licences was increased from 52 to 85 and, although some clubs do not use them, it will give clubs more flexibility in organising functions. A lot of clubs, like many pubs, are under severe pressure and, in some cases, are in the process of going under unless they can improve offerings like their social nights.

Although the Bill led to a lot of discussion, there was also a lot of consensus, and that is welcome. I have no problem in supporting the Bill.

John McCallister (UUP, South Down)

It is rather upsetting, almost, that this is the second day in a row that I am getting up to heap praise on the Minister for Social Development for yet another success. This is serious legislation, and I concur with the Chairperson of the Committee that it has been added to significantly by the Committee, the Minister and the Department working together and being willing to engage with the industry and the various stakeholders. I thank them for their evidence to the Committee, which was vital in shaping good legislation that will be enforceable and workable.

The key element will be the minimum pricing structure and how we deliver on that. I concur and associate myself with comments made by the Minister, the Chairperson and Mr Brady about the dangers that the impact of alcohol has on our society, family life and the individual. The Minister said that the cost involved is around £750 million a year, which is a significant sum of money, setting aside the personal cost that it can have on individual lives. We must use and build on the Bill with whoever the Ministers may be for social development, health and, perhaps, justice. We must look at the impact that alcohol has and drive to improve public policy to meet that challenge. We must also bear in mind the figures that Mr Brady gave for the amount of alcohol consumed in the home, and the challenge that that presents to all of us.

I agree with Mr Hamilton about irresponsible drinks promotions. We all hope that the industry has received a very strong message from the Assembly during the passage of the Bill, not least today at its Final Stage. The message is that the Assembly will not tolerate irresponsible drinks promotions. I note the example that Mr Hamilton used. He did not tell us whether he bought the two bottles of wine, or whether he felt that they were not of good enough quality for his table.

As other Members have said, there has been a good debate, even with those Members who are very opposed to alcohol consumption. I note that Mr Craig is in the Chamber; he is probably drawing up plans for a private Member’s Bill for prohibition as we speak. However, it has been a good debate on all sides. Some Members have very strong views on alcohol, but there has been a good debate as to how we manage it and what the realistic alternatives and options are. Like all legislation, it is about finding a balance between what will work on the ground and what is practical to manage. When it comes to enforcement, the police response should be appropriate and proportionate, and that will encourage people to run establishments well and properly. I hope that the small minority that do not adhere to the law will, through this legislation, become an even smaller one, and that the legislation will be robust and work well to deal with the problems that alcohol and licensing contribute to our society.

This has been a fine example of our Assembly at its best, working on an issue that concerns everyone, on all sides of this House, with all their different views and experiences of clubs and pubs. There is huge concern about the public health issue, access to alcohol and, particularly, the effect that it can have on very young people. They may become addicted to alcohol before they reach the age at which they are legally allowed to drink. Mr Brady mentioned the impact that that can have on mental health and the huge rates of suicide and self-harm that have tragic consequences for families across Northern Ireland.

This is a good piece of legislation, and the Ulster Unionist Party is happy to be associated with it and keen to see it passed, either in the next few minutes or the next few hours. We support the Bill.

Mary Bradley (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

I am clock-watching, so I will not say much. I welcome the Bill; it is a good Bill for everyone, and there will benefits from it for all of the clubs. When the police came to see the Committee, they told us that they had no great concerns about clubs because they were normally well run. This will add to all of that, and it will benefit a lot of people.

I welcome the Bill and thank the officials from DSD for the work they did with us for the Committee and on the Bill.

Anna Lo (Alliance, Belfast South)

I very much welcome the Final Stage of the Bill and add my thanks to the Committee staff, the Department and the many stakeholders who gave up their time to come and brief the Committee on many aspects of the Bill.

It is a very good Bill. It better regulates the licensed sector but is not so restrictive as to stifle its economic growth. What is best about the Bill are the many worthwhile measures to address the misuse of alcohol, which has such huge economic, health and social costs to society. The sad thing is that we are finding more and more young people who develop alcohol problems at a very early age. That is something that we must put all our efforts into trying to stop.

One thing that I am disappointed about is the closure of licensed premises. The House did not support the Alliance Party’s amendments to give more powers or grounds to the police to close premises on the grounds of imminent closure and noise nuisance, in line with other parts of the UK as well as the Republic of Ireland.

Therefore, that obviously rules out giving the police the power to take action to prevent trouble. If they had to wait for trouble to break out, more harm could be caused to individuals and properties.

Jonathan Craig (DUP, Lagan Valley)

I support the Bill. I notice that other Members are trying hard to rile me into starting another debate. That debate took place a long time ago and was proved to be a failure, so I am not going to repeat the mistake.

I particularly welcome clause 1, which will provide the police with the power to close licensed premises that are obviously causing a breach of the peace. Although I welcome that power, I think that all Committee members, including me, had concerns about how it would work in practice with the police. Indeed, my colleague Mr Hamilton pointed that out. Overzealous use of that power could be counterproductive in a community, and I think that we are all aware of cases in which that happened in the past. I say to the Minister, therefore, that it is important that we keep a close eye on how the provision works in practice.

I also welcome the penalty scheme that the Bill will introduce. It will be important to see how the points system will work in practice with licensed premises. We had a long debate about the number of late-night openings that there should be in a year. We ultimately came to a sensible conclusion, arriving at a compromise that will create a balance between clubs, pubs and other parts of the industry. I also welcome the fact that clause 3 identifies methods of ID that will be required for proof of age and the fact that there will be a £1,000 fine for those who are found to be ignoring the age issue.

I mostly welcome the fact that the irresponsible advertising of some drinks promotions will be tackled. For example, in some parts of the Province, alcohol is sold more cheaply than water. That said, when we think about what happened at Christmas, it would have been easier to get alcohol than water in a lot of places. However, that had nothing to do with irresponsible drinks promotions.

Many on the Committee know my views on alcohol. I do not wish to impose them on anyone, but I have deeply held views on alcohol, and I have good reason for holding them. Like many other Members, I have seen what alcohol and alcohol abuse can do to people. Unfortunately, I witnessed it personally with a very close friend. The abuse of alcohol — I will give it its proper name, because it is abuse — destroyed a family. I sat with the individual many times, and I prayed with him and spoke to him on many occasions to try to get him over his addiction. I sent him in the direction of people who could help him, which was the right direction. Unfortunately, however, all that failed. I had to bail out his family myself many times, because I felt that it was the right thing to do and I did not want them to starve. None of that helped that individual, and, unfortunately, at the age of 32, he passed away because of his alcohol abuse.

We must do more than reduce the adverts and inducements that, unfortunately, draw young people into alcohol but not into a responsible attitude towards it. I have spoken about that issue before. The rest of Europe has a more reasoned and responsible attitude to alcohol. If we do anything to stop and change that attitude towards the abuse of alcohol, the House will have done something commendable. I commend the Bill to the House.

Tommy Gallagher (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

Earlier contributors have referred to the excellent co-operation between the Minister, the Department, the Committee for Social Development and all those who gave evidence in bringing the Bill forward. The Bill ties in very well with the Committee for Health, Social Services and Public Safety’s report of its inquiry into suicide and self-harm, which was published two years ago. The report’s recommendations referred to the close link between suicide, self-harm and alcohol. Many of those who gave evidence to the Health Committee at the time spoke about those matters.

It is encouraging that, as the previous contributor said, there will be some penalties and restrictions around the all-too-free availability of alcohol for many of our young people. The Minister for Social Development referred to jobs in the industry and the need for balance. We all realise that, for many generations in this country, access to alcohol was controlled under licence. That system has worked well, although there have been exceptions, on occasion, when a small number of individuals have abused that system and have acted irresponsibly.

It is important to achieve that balance. Many of the pubs of Ireland are used by local communities and offer an environment that is very attractive for social occasions. When people are in that environment, under licence, they are free from drinks promotions and the abuse of the after-hours regulations. As the Minister said, the pub industry makes an important contribution to the protection of jobs and can be very important in rural areas. As someone who supports the campaign to save the pubs of Ireland for the reasons that I have outlined, I believe that the Bill does a good job in getting the balance right between enforcement and protecting the asset that is there and, particularly, the jobs in the licensed industry.

Alex Attwood (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast West)

I acknowledge and thank all the Members who contributed today and throughout the passage of the Bill. The Bill has a number of chapters, and I want to confirm what four or five of those have been and the insight that has been provided to me as the Minister into the passage of the legislation.

First, I previously advised the Committee for Social Development or the House or individual Members of a conversation that I had in the Department after Second Stage. I said that, arising from that debate, I was anxious to ensure that we took forward proposals on irresponsible drinks promotions. An official in the Lighthouse Building on the day in question — not one who is within earshot — said to me that it could not be done. I said that it had to be done and asked how we would get it done. Ten minutes later, the official said that maybe we could get it done, and I said that we should get it done by piggybacking on Minister Ford’s Justice Bill. It transpired a month later that that was not possible. I went back to the official and said that we should put it in the Bill, by which stage the official said that we could do that.

There are a lot of lessons in that tale for any Members — all Members, I presume — who aspire to ministerial office. The lessons are that, when officials say no, tell them that they mean yes, and they will find ways and means of getting something done that adds to the quality of a Bill and the welfare of our citizens. That is a completely accurate story. I remember the official. I can see him in my mind’s eye. I could name him, but I will not. He said that it could not be done, but, a short number of months later, the Assembly has proved that things of significance can be done.

Anna Lo (Alliance, Belfast South)

What was that official’s rationale for changing his mind?

Alex Attwood (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast West)

The rationale was that we had not consulted on the irresponsible drinks promotions proposal and that we did not have enough time or opportunity to consult on it. The point is that, within 10 minutes, officials can come round to a Minister’s way of thinking. That is a genuine story — I say that as I look anxiously at my officials. The official said no, and, 10 minutes later, he said yes. We worked out how to do it and, even then, we changed our mind a month later and decided to do it differently. I am looking at Minister Gildernew, who I am sure has had similar experiences as a Minister.

The second story of the Bill — I thank Peter Weir for his note — is what one Member referred to as the farce at a previous stage. I do not refer to it as a farce; I will be a little more generous and say that it was a little confusing. Regardless of whether there was a little confusion around amendments being moved or not moved, the point is that a lot of amendments were moved one way or the other. The Bill has a lot more depth and quality than previously as a consequence of those amendments being moved. I want to acknowledge all the Members who, through the conversation at Committee Stage, through tabling amendments, through moving amendments, through not moving amendments and through voting for various amendments, have upgraded the Bill in a significant way.

In respect of one amendment related to advertising, which was not moved, I intend to find out from the Civil Service club what its legal advice is that states that it may advertise. If there is legal advice that holds water, I will advise other clubs of their legal advice and say that it is up to them to proceed at risk. Nonetheless, if, under the current law, there are ways in which clubs can advertise legitimately, as per the Civil Service legal advice, I will explore that and advise clubs.

The third story of the Bill is something that Mr McCallister referred to, namely some Members’ instinct towards prohibition. The conversation on the Bill confirmed that there are Members who come from a temperance background. At Further Consideration Stage, Jonathan Craig, for example, spoke about the impact of alcohol on the lives of people whom he knows. However, Members who come from a temperance background also recognised the need to legislate on alcohol wisely and responsibly and even to take a more liberal and flexible approach to alcohol licensing to get the right balance between protecting people from the excess of alcohol and allowing licensed premises, particularly clubs, to continue to operate their businesses and assist the community in the ways that they do. It was an important moment when people who come from a certain background recognised that the responsibility of legislators is to get laws that are fit for purpose, wise, informed and meet the needs of all aspects of the community.

The fourth story of the Bill is the one that has yet to be written. It is about how this Bill, like much other legislation, demonstrates the need for more intently joined-up government. That is the significance of the consultation on minimum pricing that the Minister of Health, Social Services and Public Safety, Michael McGimpsey, and I will launch in the near future but on which he will subsequently lead. Issues around minimum pricing are best addressed in the context of their health consequences as opposed to their legal, licensing or disorder consequences. The point is that there needs to be joined-up government on that and a lot of other issues.

Michelle Gildernew and I met before Christmas to look at how we might provide better joined-up funding for urban and rural organisations, which provide a great service to the community across Northern Ireland, so that they can do their work somewhat differently to improve their impact while possibly saving money. That theme of joined-up government, especially in areas of need and disadvantage, between the Department of Agriculture and Rural Development and the Department for Social Development, or the Department for Social Development and the Department of Health, Social Services and Public Safety or other Departments is the kind of learning that has come out of this Bill’s consideration.

The final story of the Bill is linked to the work of the Assembly over the past number of weeks. The volume and quality of the legislation being passed, be it on hedges, wildlife, the private rented sector, licensing or caravans — note that I do not mention the Budget Bill — prove what this business is all about. It is about legislating to deal with issues such as hedges, wildlife, alcohol, the private rented sector and all the rest. All of us should judge ourselves and be judged on the amount of legislation that we get over the line, the quality of that legislation and the positive impact that it has on our citizens.

I will tell those who want to know what Peter Weir’s note was about. It reads, “Stop tapping your lectern” — “tapping” has been spelt wrongly — “It sounds very irritating on the audio”. That is probably wise advice for anybody who stands at this or any other lectern in the Assembly in the future. Actually, maybe he has spelt it correctly. I might have been maligning the Member’s intelligence, so I apologise for that.

I commend the Bill to the House.

John Dallat (Social Democratic and Labour Party, East Londonderry)

I am sure that we are all pleased that it was not on special offer.

Question put and agreed to.

Resolved:

That the Licensing and Registration of Clubs (Amendment) Bill [NIA 19/09] do now pass.

Michelle Gildernew (Sinn Féin, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

I beg to move

That the Welfare of Animals Bill [NIA 28/09] do now pass.

Go raibh míle maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. I am absolutely delighted that the Welfare of Animals Bill has reached its Final Stage. This is the fourth Bill that I have introduced and taken through the legislative process since coming into office in 2007, and it is a significant achievement for everybody concerned. Before I turn to the detail of the Bill, I thank all those who responded to the consultation exercise that my Department carried out and all those who attended the meetings with me or my officials or the stakeholder workshop last year. I appreciate the input of all those stakeholders, whose contributions have contributed significantly to the Bill.

I thank the Chairperson and the members of the Committee for Agriculture and Rural Development for their consideration of the Bill and acknowledge the volume of work and time that the Committee spent on it. Its comments and recommendations have helped to shape the Bill before us today. I also thank officials in the Office of the First Minister and deputy First Minister, the Office of the Attorney General, the Office of the Legislative Counsel, the Departmental Solicitor’s Office and the Bill Office, as they have also given us much support and advice along the way. I thank the Committee Clerk and his staff for their diligence and determination to ensure that Committee Stage was completed before Christmas. Last but not least, I thank my departmental officials who have worked very hard on this Bill, particularly given the time constraints involved. I am grateful to all of them.

This is an appropriate moment for me to remind the House of the Welfare of Animals Bill’s main aims and purpose. The Bill updates and strengthens the powers that exist in the Welfare of Animals Act 1972 and will replace that Act. The Bill will reduce the likelihood of unnecessary suffering being caused to any vertebrate animal, because it introduces a duty of care and places obligations on everyone to promote the welfare of the animals, including domestic pets, for which they are responsible. The new powers will allow action to be taken to prevent animals from suffering, rather than having to wait until after suffering has occurred, which is the current position for non-farmed animals. That will address the gap between the high legislative protection currently afforded to farmed animals and the somewhat limited protection for non-farmed animals.

Stronger powers in the Bill will allow early action to be taken when the horrific practice of animal fighting is suspected, including dog fighting. No longer will an animal fight have to take place before action can be taken. If there is evidence that animals are being bred or trained to participate in animal fights, action can be taken to seize them.

The Bill contains enabling powers to regulate by subordinate legislation any activity involving animals, such as activity at dog breeding establishments. The Bill also contains powers to prohibit the keeping of certain animals should that prove necessary in the future; for example, animals in travelling circuses. Powers are also included to ban the cosmetic tail docking of dogs. Following an amendment agreed at Consideration Stage, an exemption from that ban is now provided for certified working dogs.

Cruelty to animals and animal abuse has no place in a civilised society. We need to send out a clear message that that will not be tolerated. Therefore, penalties for those who commit the most serious animal welfare abuses have been increased to two years’ imprisonment and an unlimited fine.

The Bill has 60 clauses, something that was often forgotten during Committee Stage and when the House debated the Bill at Consideration Stage and Further Consideration Stage. I am amazed that over 90% of the time spent talking about the Bill during those stages concentrated on the powers in clause 6 on tail docking. Although I appreciate that tail docking is an emotive subject, I urge Members not to lose sight of the bigger picture. The Bill is the most important animal welfare legislation ever to be developed in the North of Ireland, and it includes substantial powers to stop all animals under the control of people from suffering unnecessarily. The Bill also ensures that those animals will be afforded a duty of care, often referred to as the five freedoms.

There has been widespread support from the majority of stakeholders for the new Bill. The Bill will ensure that we are at the forefront of the protection of farmed and non-farmed animals and will, I know, be supported by all right-thinking people. Therefore, I urge Members not to get sidetracked into a debate on one or two clauses but to appreciate the significant benefits that the Bill will bring to all animals under our control.

Stephen Moutray (DUP, Upper Bann)

I declare an interest as a member of Craigavon Borough Council.

With your permission, Mr Deputy Speaker, I wish to thank all the witnesses who contributed to the Committee Stage of the Bill, departmental officials for their advice, the Northern Ireland Assembly Bill Office for the excellent guidance that it provided to the Committee and, finally, the Committee team, for its support during the passage of the Bill.

The Welfare of Animals Bill has attracted a great deal of attention over past weeks and months, not all of which has been positive. That is unfortunate, because there is much in the Bill to be positive about. As the Minister said, the legislation will align the welfare of farmed and non-farmed animals. It will enshrine the five animal freedoms in statute. It will dispel the need to wait until an animal is suffering before an intervention can be effected, as it will now allow for such an intervention where an animal is likely to suffer. It will allow for stricter regulation of breeding establishments through subordinate legislation. It will bring about additional controls to prevent the heinous crime of animal fighting, and it will ban tail docking, with exemptions for specific breeds of working dog. Those are all positive outcomes and ones that the Committee for Agriculture and Rural Development has debated, supported and agreed. There have been and continue to be problematic areas, which I will come to in due course. However, let us not lose sight of the fact that domesticated animals — non-farmed animals — will be afforded additional protection and enhanced welfare as a result of this legislation.

During Committee Stage, three issues were identified: the licensing of breeding establishments; tail docking; and enforcement and resourcing responsibilities for local government. Owners of breeding establishments made themselves available to the Committee to argue for stricter regulation of their industry by the Department. The Bill will allow for new regulations to be brought forward as subordinate legislation. Those will be consulted on, brought to the Committee for scrutiny and brought before the House for approval using the affirmative resolution process. That will allow for detailed regulations that could, for example, limit the number of breeding bitches and the number of litters they have, while also potentially controlling things such as the advertising of pups for sale on the Internet and in newspapers and journals. It would not have been appropriate to include that detail in the Bill. However, it is entirely appropriate that additional time is taken to consider this serious issue and to make sure that we get it right. I am glad that the Department is of a similar mind, and I repeat its assurances that the subordinate legislation will be a priority for the Department. I am also glad that any administration or enforcement of the registration and licensing of breeding establishments will be undertaken at full cost recovery, thus ensuring that ratepayers do not have to take on that additional financial burden.

The second issue identified by the Committee was tail docking. That issue has attracted a great deal of attention over the past few weeks. Mr Deputy Speaker, you will be pleased to learn that I do not intend to rehearse those arguments. However, I again emphasise the Committee’s position on the matter, as detailed throughout Committee Stage, in the Committee’s report and during Consideration Stage and Further Consideration Stage and confirmed by Committee members on a number of occasions during debates: the Committee is opposed to the cosmetic docking of dogs’ tails and, consequently, of the promotion and support of such practices. The exemptions that the Committee has made to clause 6 of the Bill are practicable and, combined with the proposed legislative principles brought by the Department to the Committee, will ensure that the welfare of working dogs is enhanced. Again, the amendments made in respect of showing dogs will close a loophole that exhibitors have been using in England and Wales, and it will help to ensure that the practice of promoting cosmetic docking will be reduced and eventually disappear.

The final key issue that the Committee identified was enforcement. Again, it is unfortunate that some organisations have recently gone to press decrying the Bill as ill considered and ineffective. It is unfortunate that a representative of one organisation, an organisation that claims to be to the fore of animal welfare, wishes to use the press to grab headlines yet failed to make representations of any type to the Committee during pre-legislative scrutiny of the Bill or when the Bill was introduced to the House or, indeed, at any of the stages that the Bill has been through, particularly Committee Stage.

The fact that the Bill seeks to pass enforcement of its powers to local government has been known for a long time now. The fact that there are problems with that is also well known, and the Committee has rehearsed those problems with the Department extensively. The Minister has agreed to ring-fence some £760,000 a year over the next four years; that is not a one-off dowry, as reported by ill-informed welfare organisations.

The Committee has the agreement of the Department that additional consultation with local councils is required, and I am pleased that the Minister has accepted the Committee’s invitation to a meeting with elected representatives in Parliament Buildings next week. We still have concerns about future resourcing, and the Committee sees this as a very important first step in the consultation process but stresses that it is only the first step. The issue should have been resolved before the legislation was brought to the House, but the Committee believes that it can be resolved.

As I indicated, the issue of enforcement is unresolved, but positive steps are being taken to resolve the matter. We have a good piece of legislation here, one that has been needed for almost 40 years. I fully accept that there will be a small number of people who do not agree with some of the clauses. That is true of most, but not all, legislation. However, the Committee has been consistent in its position and its objective that the welfare of animals is and should remain the priority. The Bill does that by placing the animal’s welfare to the fore and aligning non-farmed animals with those that are farmed. That is the policy principle that the Committee has supported and will continue to support. I commend the Bill to the House.

John Dallat (Social Democratic and Labour Party, East Londonderry)

The Business Committee has arranged to meet immediately on the lunchtime suspension. I propose, therefore, by leave of the Assembly, to suspend the sitting until 2.00 pm. The first item of business when we return will be Question Time.

The debate stood suspended.

The sitting was suspended at 1.00 pm.

On resuming (Mr Deputy Speaker [Mr McClarty] in the Chair) —

Agriculture and Rural Development

David McClarty (Independent, East Londonderry)

Questions 2 and 3 have been withdrawn and require written answers.

P J Bradley (Social Democratic and Labour Party, South Down)

1. asked the Minister of Agriculture and Rural Development for her assessment of the range of activities carried out and the benefits brought to rural communities by young farmers’ clubs. (AQO 1106/11)

Robert Coulter (UUP, North Antrim)

6. asked the Minister of Agriculture and Rural Development for her assessment of the performance of the Young Farmers’ Clubs of Ulster against its targets for the current funding period. (AQO 1111/11)

Sydney Anderson (DUP, Upper Bann)

7. asked the Minister of Agriculture and Rural Development what prior assessment she made of the potential social impact on rural areas of her decision to cut funding to the Young Farmers’ Clubs of Ulster. (AQO 1112/11)

Ken Robinson (UUP, East Antrim)

10. asked the Minister of Agriculture and Rural Development for her assessment of the role played by young farmers’ clubs such as Kilwaughter and Gleno Valley in the training of future young farmers and the prevention of rural isolation. (AQO 1115/11)

Michelle Gildernew (Sinn Féin, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

Go raibh maith agat. With your permission, a LeasCheann Comhairle, I will answer questions 1, 6, 7 and 10 together.

Following the Executive’s agreement on a draft Budget, I announced my draft budget proposals for the Department of Agriculture and Regional Development (DARD) for the financial years 2011-15 on 13 January 2011. The current expenditure saving required from DARD is £43 million over the next four years. At the time, you may recall, I had identified that I would not have the resources to do everything that I would want to and live within the available budget. To live within the available budget, I proposed savings in a number of areas.

When I considered the support that DARD provides to the Young Farmers’ Clubs of Ulster (YFCU), I did not regard it as a priority, when set against front line activity. I am aware that concern about that draft budget proposal has been raised and that many submissions have been received on the issue. Therefore, I met YFCU representatives last Thursday to listen to their perspective. That was a positive engagement during which I had a useful discussion and indicated to them the areas that I believe are a priority and where the YFCU may contribute to rural communities. I explained the sort of measurable outputs that the clubs would have to deliver to justify continued grant aid.

Future areas of work discussed included rural road safety, in conjunction with the GAA; succession planning; encouraging the uptake of online applications by farm businesses; a schools outreach programme of a cross-community nature; and a programme to integrate the work of the Young Farmers’ Clubs of Ulster into local rural community initiatives, including a focus on rural women’s issues, particularly domestic violence.

Having carefully considered the views of the YFCU, the budget pressures on my Department and the potential value of a programme of work targeted at those specific areas, I am content, in principle, to continue to fund the YFCU for a further three years, subject to it providing a suitable business proposal covering the specific areas that we discussed. I phoned the YFCU president, Thoburn McCaughey, today to advise him of my decision.

P J Bradley (Social Democratic and Labour Party, South Down)

I thank the Minister for her answer. I will not be rushing to the press with it; the young farmers’ union has already advised the media. Some Members have just come from a meeting of the Agriculture Committee at which there was quite a lot of controversy over the budget. Was the proposal to take money from the young farmers’ clubs the Minister’s own idea or was she acting on advice?

Michelle Gildernew (Sinn Féin, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

I assure the Member that I had very hard decisions to make. The House will recognise that £43 million is a significant amount to find from the agriculture budget, considering that a lot of what we do is statutory or in compliance with a European directive.

There have been difficulties in trying to get through a budget proposal that protects front line services while doing all that we are obliged to. Given that young farmers’ clubs have considerable funding from other sources, I felt that I needed to look at that. The decision to do so was very difficult, and I have had a positive engagement with young farmers’ clubs throughout my time as Minister. However, with measurable outcomes and with a programme of work agreed by my Department and young farmers’ clubs, I believe that they can continue to make an even more positive contribution to community and youth work in rural areas to the benefit of all young people in such areas.

Robert Coulter (UUP, North Antrim)

I hope that I take the Minister’s answer in the right way. I am delighted that you are going to continue to fund young farmers’ clubs. Is any recognition given to the great work that young farmers have been doing to reduce rural isolation and to increase the number of young people with an interest in agriculture and the likelihood of their choosing a farming career?

Michelle Gildernew (Sinn Féin, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

There is no question that that is the case and that the clubs have made a positive contribution to the life of young people in rural areas. They do get funding from other sources. This funding could not be seen on the same basis as some of the other front line services that I have to protect. However, we now have agreement on a programme of work, and I hope that the young farmers’ clubs will deliver on a much more varied programme. That will make an important contribution and add to what they are already doing to obtain greater benefit for taxpayers’ money. We cannot ignore the fact that taxpayers are funding the young farmers’ clubs. We want taxpayers to get something back from that, and I believe that the issues and outcomes that we discussed last week can help to deliver that.

Sydney Anderson (DUP, Upper Bann)

I thank the Minister for her responses so far; a lot of the issues have been discussed. I, too, welcome the decision to give the young farmers back what I would say is rightfully theirs.

The Minister claims to be a champion for the rural people. What other organisation out there provides the service for young people in Northern Ireland that the young farmers’ clubs do? Can the Minister guarantee that any money that goes back will come from mainstream funding?

Michelle Gildernew (Sinn Féin, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

First, I have to nail the Member’s point that the funding is rightfully theirs. I know of no other organisation that has enjoyed taxpayers’ support since the 1930s, and none of us can take for granted funding that comes out of the taxpayers’ pockets or say that money is rightfully ours. We can agree a programme of work under which the Young Farmers Clubs’ of Ulster deliver a number of outcomes that will have a very positive impact on rural communities in general. We need to nail the perception that the money is theirs and should always be theirs.

The Member disagrees with me, but loads of community organisations and voluntary groups would love to be in the same position as the young farmers’ clubs. None of us can take for granted money from the small pot that the Executive get and have to distribute across a wide range of very important services. Nobody can say: “That money is ours; you cannot take it off us.” The young farmers’ clubs certainly do not say that to me, and it is unfortunate that we have got into this situation, because they have asked what they can do to persuade us to give them that money and said that they will do something for it. They never said: “That money is rightfully ours; give it back.”

Ken Robinson (UUP, East Antrim)

I am glad that the Minister has moved towards the young farmers’ clubs. However, this funding involves miniscule amounts of money and, given that her preferred option to move DARD headquarters west of the Bann will involve the astronomical cost of moving jobs outside their present location, surely there is an imbalance in her approach.

Michelle Gildernew (Sinn Féin, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

Our position to address economic inequality is the conduit for the decision that I took, which was recommended in the Bain review, to move DARD headquarters. Although the funding for the young farmers’ clubs is not a huge amount of money, it is still money that a lot of organisations would love to be able to access year on year for very little effort on their part. We have moved to a much more mature understanding between young farmers’ clubs and the Department, but there needs to be maturity here too. Rural people have the same entitlement and right to decent well-paid employment as urban dwellers, and I make no apologies for fighting that battle throughout or for ensuring that the people from rural areas have access to good, well-paid jobs.

Paul Frew (DUP, North Antrim)

I welcome the news. If I heard her right, the Minister said that she will provide three years of funding from a four-year budget. What is the rationale behind that?

Michelle Gildernew (Sinn Féin, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

The last package of funding to the young farmers’ clubs was for three years, and that is what they asked for.

John McCallister (UUP, South Down)

At the outset, I declare an interest as a paid member of the Young Farmers Clubs’ of Ulster. Some Members across the House maybe doubted my age, but I am sure that I can clarify that. I thank the Minister for her decision. It is a good news story that young farmers’ clubs and the Department have achieved a result that will be widely welcomed across rural communities and the industry, as young farmers’ clubs provide the next round of leaders for the industry. Can the Minister confirm that the level of funding is the same, and will she agree that young farmers’ clubs will rise to the challenges that she has set before them?

Michelle Gildernew (Sinn Féin, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

Subject to a business case, we have agreed that £75,000 per annum will be available over the three-year period. I welcome the Member’s supplementary question as he was the first Member to raise the matter. John was first out of the traps, and I am delighted that we have come to an understanding with the young farmers’ clubs. I look forward to working with them in future.

David McClarty (Independent, East Londonderry)

Obviously, the word “young” has a wide definition, Mr McCallister. Questions 2 and 3 have been withdrawn. Mr Gerry McHugh is not in his place to ask question 4.

Alan McFarland (Independent, North Down)

5. asked the Minister of Agriculture and Rural Development what action her Department has taken to encourage the introduction of red grouse into mountain areas. (AQO 1110/11)

Michelle Gildernew (Sinn Féin, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

The College of Agriculture, Food and Rural Enterprise (CAFRE), which manages the Glenwherry Hill farm, initiated the Glenwherry Hill regeneration project in 2009. That project aims to protect a wide range of habitats, including those for red grouse, hen harrier, merlin, curlew and snipe. The project involves a partnership between the Irish Grouse Conservation Trust, the RSPB and CAFRE. The Environment Agency and the Agri-Food and Biosciences Institute also make a significant contribution to the project through their advice, support and scientific input.

That pioneering environmental project has an agreed five-year management plan that satisfies the interests of the various partners and the demands of protective legislation. Already, the project has shown great success, with red grouse numbers in the past three years increasing from six pairs to 200 pairs, surpassing all expectations. The significance of that achievement cannot be overstated because, in 2004, the total number of red grouse across the Six Counties was estimated at between 200 pairs and 221 pairs.

The Glenwherry Hill regeneration project recognises that proactive management is essential in securing sustainability in biodiversity and in the livelihoods of those who live and work in the hills and uplands. In practice, management includes the burning of heather to provide a food source for young grouse chicks, sheep-grazing management, predator control and providing grit for the grouse. I launched the project at Glenwherry on 19 January, where I learned at first-hand of its success to date. I also assure the House that the aforementioned organisations were extremely positive about the potential benefits that may accrue in due course, and the publicity surrounding the project has been positive.

Funding is available to participants in agrienvironment schemes to encourage heather regeneration, as well-managed heather is a great asset to the farm, providing a valuable wildlife habitat for priority species such as the red grouse, curlew and Irish hare. I am interested in hearing the views of farmers and landowners on the benefits that agrienvironment schemes bring. My staff are in discussion with farmers and landowners to improve that in future.

Alan McFarland (Independent, North Down)

I thank the Minister for her answer. How many farmers who are involved with the countryside management scheme intend to help with the regeneration of the red grouse?

Michelle Gildernew (Sinn Féin, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

I do not know, because we do not yet have that information. We are reopening applications for the countryside management scheme, but I do not know how many farmers will be in a position to get involved in that work. I assure the House that my officials will be emphasising the importance of that work and its benefits to farmers whose land is applicable.

David McClarty (Independent, East Londonderry)

I call the other red grouse expert, Patsy McGlone, to ask a supplementary question.

Patsy McGlone (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Mid Ulster)

I am not too sure about that, Mr Deputy Speaker. Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as ucht an fhreagra sin. I have been involved with a project on those matters outside Lough Fea in the Sperrins. Will the Minister ensure that there is a complementarity of effort between her Department and the Department of the Environment, particularly through the Northern Ireland Environment Agency, to maximise effort rather than one Department pulling in one direction and another Department pulling in another? We have noticed that happening on one or two occasions, especially around the burning of heather.

Michelle Gildernew (Sinn Féin, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

I do not think that there is any question of pulling in separate directions on this issue. My officials have worked very well with officials in the NIEA and are in regular communication with them. Where any land under agrienvironment agreement falls within a designated area, the Environment Agency is consulted as to the management required for that land. However, as the delivery agent for the countryside management scheme, we prioritise that work, and the NIEA provides advice and support to it.

David McClarty (Independent, East Londonderry)

Questions 6 and 7 were grouped with question 1.

Reg Empey (UUP, Belfast East)

8. asked the Minister of Agriculture and Rural Development to outline how her Department encourages and supports allotment holders to increase vegetable production, whether in an urban environment or as part of a farm diversification scheme. (AQO 1113/11)

Michelle Gildernew (Sinn Féin, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

Under axis 3 of the rural development programme, there is an opportunity for farmers, their family members or other landowners to supplement their income by allocating an area of land for rent by the public as allotments. Such enterprises have an additional beneficial effect of enabling members of the community to have access to the outdoors and to the facilities to grow their own produce.

Local action groups may allocate grant aid to landowners for setting up allotments and facilities in rural areas, subject to congruence with agreed local development strategies, robust economic appraisal and competitive assessment. To date, five projects, including one feasibility study, have been offered up to £100,000 in axis 3 grant assistance for the development of allotments, while a further two are undergoing project assessment. One project in the south Antrim area has been completed.

Reg Empey (UUP, Belfast East)

I thank the Minister for her response. She will be well aware that, in the past, some local authorities have had allotments policies. She will also be aware that there is fierce competition for those allotments, particularly in urban areas. However, the real issue here is diversification. There are huge benefits if that can be achieved in rural communities. How does the Minister’s Department intend to promote that, particularly from the point of view of farm diversification? It is clear that the more of that sort of activity that can take place in rural areas, the better, and, ultimately, people can make small businesses out of them.

Michelle Gildernew (Sinn Féin, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

There are a number of win-win situations in the whole issue of allotments. Under axis 3, farmers, their family members or private landowners may avail themselves of financial assistance for viable, sustainable projects at a rate of up to 50% of total eligible project costs, up to a maximum grant amount of £50,000. However, social economy enterprises may also avail themselves of financial assistance at a rate of up to 75% of total eligible project costs, up to a maximum grant amount of £250,000, subject to the state aid de minimis rule. Therefore, there are opportunities for social economy projects that want to get involved in this issue and can work with local farmers and landowners to bring that about.

Jonathan Bell (DUP, Strangford)

Given that food security is a priority for Europe, is there any way that the Minister’s Department can make the bureaucracy less bureaucratic? Most people who are setting up a small business will be unable to go through the rules and regulations set down by Europe. If we go out and say that there is £250,000 available to set up a small business, it will attract a huge amount of interest. However, when people see the tomes of European regulation and bureaucracy, they will not be able to work through it and will give up after about the second volume. Can anything be done to make that information more accessible?

Michelle Gildernew (Sinn Féin, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

It is very interesting that that question comes in the same week as the comments that we had about serious farmers. We are talking about allotments and producing more food and people being able to produce their own fruit and vegetables. I believe that anybody who contributes to our food supply and anybody who grows food for export or for the domestic market deserves respect and deserves to be appreciated for what they do.

I have made it very clear to the Commission and to all those working along with me, including the Agriculture and Rural Development Committee and our three MEPs, that those issues come up in conversation frequently. I believe that we need to support everybody who is contributing to the European food pot and ensuring that we have food security. We export so much of our beef and milk that, sometimes, we think food security is something that other member states need to take cognisance of, but I think that we are only a few decades from the biggest famine in this country. That memory will not leave us, and we want to ensure that there is a viable, sustainable food supply for future generations on the island of Ireland.

John Dallat (Social Democratic and Labour Party, East Londonderry)

Does the Minister agree that most of us are probably second-generation rural dwellers and that, even though we live in towns, we have a fascination with getting back to the countryside? It is now accepted that health and the growing of vegetables are related. Has she had any conversations with the Health Minister and, indeed, the Minister of Education, about making this a cohesive venture, from which farmers would, in fact, benefit as well as people who have allotments?

Michelle Gildernew (Sinn Féin, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

I have had discussions with the Health Minister and the Minister of Education about the availability of fresh local produce for the most vulnerable in our society. That is certainly becoming increasingly popular. Work by people such as Richard Corrigan and Darina Allen has encouraged people to try to grow at least some of their own food and has made people aware of the benefit that it brings. We all know how exciting it is for children to see something that they have planted come to fruition. We can all start with a pot of tomatoes on a sunlit windowsill, and take it from there.

The Member made the important point that we are all just one or two generations away from the land. Indeed, some of us are still on it. It is important that children know where food comes from and the significance of the seasons to what we buy to eat, so that we do not lose track of where we come from and how we need food to sustain us.

Willie Clarke (Sinn Féin, South Down)

9. asked the Minister of Agriculture and Rural Development for an update on the proposal for a new breakwater at Kilkeel harbour. (AQO 1114/11)

Michelle Gildernew (Sinn Féin, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

In 2010, the Department carried out an economic appraisal on the options for improving navigational safety at the entrance to Kilkeel harbour. The appraisal considered a range of options to reduce risks to what is known as ALARP — I hate acronyms, but they have to be used — or, as-low-as-reasonably-practicable levels. They included breakwater construction options, which earlier technical studies had concluded would achieve ALARP levels. However, other options were also identified and considered. They included the relocation of the fleet and the introduction of an enhanced safety-management system.

The overall aim of the appraisal was to improve navigational safety at the approach to the Kilkeel harbour entrance. The appraisal concluded that the introduction of an enhanced safety-management system would also reduce the safety risk to ALARP levels and that that solution represented the best value for money and could be implemented more quickly and at lower cost than a breakwater. The estimated cost of an enhanced safety-management system is £192,000; the cost of a breakwater is £15 million.

I have, therefore, decided that, in order to address the concerns about access to Kilkeel harbour in certain adverse conditions, an enhanced safety-management system should be developed and implemented as soon as possible. I have asked the Fishery Harbour Authority to draw up proposals for such a system, which will be prioritised for consideration for funding from the European Fisheries Fund (EFF). When the system is installed and operational, it will be reviewed after three years to ensure that the safety risk at the entrance to Kilkeel harbour is being maintained at as-low-as-reasonably-practicable levels.

Willie Clarke (Sinn Féin, South Down)

Go riabh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. I thank the Minister for her response. I agree with her that safety is paramount. It is absolutely essential that seafarers are protected. Obviously, resources are limited. Therefore, we have to be pragmatic. Will the Minister comment on proposals by the Fishery Harbour Authority to increase landing dues?

Michelle Gildernew (Sinn Féin, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

Certainly. The Member mentioned safety. Problems arise when a vessel attempts to gain access to the harbour when it is not safe to do so. I fully recognise the skill and judgement displayed by skippers over the years, which have helped to avoid serious incidents. Hopefully, the decision I have taken will give them better information about the navigational conditions that prevail at the pier head.

For some years, the Fishery Harbour Authority has not generated enough income to meet its operating costs. That deficit has been met by drawing on reserves that were built on in previous years. As reserves have depleted, the authority has asked that it receive grant aid from the Department. I have agreed in principle that that should be paid, subject to necessary statutory provisions being put in place.

John McCallister (UUP, South Down)

I am grateful for the opportunity to ask a supplementary question, because this is a constituency issue. I welcome the Minister’s response; it is a scheme that we would all like to see. What is the likely timescale? Has the Minister any dates in mind that she would like to work towards? From where will possible sources of funding be sought? Will they be sought from Europe, for instance?

Michelle Gildernew (Sinn Féin, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

I cannot give a definitive timescale, but as soon as practically possible. We will be looking at EFF as a vehicle for bringing it forward.

Mickey Brady (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

11. asked the Minister of Agriculture and Rural Development for an update on the brucellosis outbreak in the Keady and Lislea areas, including any action being taken by her Department. (AQO 1116/11)

Michelle Gildernew (Sinn Féin, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

Most brucellosis breakdowns in the North of Ireland in 2010 were in Lislea and Keady, with eight and 11 confirmed breakdowns in those areas respectively. However, more than three quarters of those were in the first half of the year, and there was a significant reduction in new outbreaks in the latter part of the year. The most recent confirmed breakdowns in the North were disclosed in November 2010, and no infected herds have come to light since then.

Additional control measures continue to be employed in the Keady and Lislea areas, including controls on cattle movements; an increased frequency of herd blood testing; additional bulk milk testing; surveillance of animals at abattoir; and additional Veterinary Service epidemiological unit visits to investigate the patterns of disease.

I have also had constructive meetings with the PSNI Chief Constable and the Minister of Justice, David Ford, about fraudulent and illegal activity involving livestock. Earlier this month, I met the Irish Farmers’ Association and the Ulster Farmers’ Union to reassure them of our continued robust approach to disease control and to those who may seek to gain from disease spread, particularly in breakdowns that are close to the South.

Mickey Brady (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

I thank the Minister for her answer. Will the Minister give the House some idea of when she thinks brucellosis will be eradicated in the North?

Michelle Gildernew (Sinn Féin, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

If progress is maintained, we could see eradication within three years. Subsequently, that could lead to our obtaining official brucellosis-free status and allow some easement in the testing regime. However, we cannot be complacent, as the events of 2010 taught us that brucellosis hot spots can develop with a risk of considerable spread.

Dominic Bradley (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Newry and Armagh)

Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as an fhreagra a thug sí. Does the Minister agree that the word “outbreak” is a bit of a euphemism, since the disease was deliberately introduced into Lislea and Keady? Can the Minister give an indication of the costs sustained by her Department to date as a result of the disease being criminally introduced into those areas?

Michelle Gildernew (Sinn Féin, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

I want to be clear. We know that the incident in Lislea late in 2009 was fraudulent; however, proving that others are fraudulent is difficult. In fact, it is not necessarily the case that they were fraudulent. Since brucellosis is such a contagious disease, the herds of many farmers in the area of the Lislea incident contracted that disease accidentally and through no fault of their own. It is important that we do not criminalise people for being victims.

Dominic Bradley (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Newry and Armagh)

Some were deliberately introduced.

Michelle Gildernew (Sinn Féin, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

Not all cases were deliberate. I have to give an absolute assurance to the House that there were accidental breakdowns in neighbouring herds as a result of a deliberate case. There is no doubt that there was a deliberate case, but not every animal that contracted brucellosis since late 2009 was infected deliberately. We are not about to criminalise anybody who found themselves a victim in this scenario.

I accept that the Member has asked more than one question. I do not have the costs with me, but I am happy to come back to the Member in writing.

Patsy McGlone (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Mid Ulster)

12. asked the Minister of Agriculture and Rural Development whether she has made any representations on behalf of rural communities to the Minister for Regional Development about the state of rural roads, and in particular, the poor condition of most unclassified roads. (AQO 1117/11)

Michelle Gildernew (Sinn Féin, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

As the Member is aware, responsibility for the maintenance of the North’s rural road infrastructure lies with the Department for Regional Development. As part of the development of actions for inclusion in the rural White Paper, which I hope to publish soon, I have had many bilateral meetings with Ministers about the challenges facing our rural communities. When I met the Minister for Regional Development, I raised the issue of rural roads. The Minister assures me that he continues to see rural roads as an important issue and that he will do all that he can within the resources available to him to maintain the roads infrastructure to keep it safe, effective and reliable. I refer the Member to Minister Murphy’s response to AQW 3641/11 in relation to the maintenance of roads.

Patsy McGlone (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Mid Ulster)

Perhaps, I can refer —

David McClarty (Independent, East Londonderry)

Order. That concludes questions to the Minister of Agriculture and Rural Development.

Culture, Arts and Leisure

David McClarty (Independent, East Londonderry)

Question 3 has been withdrawn and a written answer has been requested.

Conall McDevitt (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast South)

1. asked the Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure whether he or his Department has conducted an assessment of how many jobs could be lost in the arts sector as a result of the cut in the grant to the Arts Council. (AQO 1120/11)

Chris Lyttle (Alliance, Belfast East)

7. asked the Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure for an update on funding for the arts. (AQO 1126/11)

Nelson McCausland (DUP, Belfast North)

With your permission, Mr Deputy Speaker, I will answer questions 1 and 7 together.

My Department’s indicative budget for the arts includes funding for the Arts Council, Northern Ireland Screen, creative industries, architecture, community festivals and departmental administration costs. I recently met the Arts Council to discuss the implications of the draft Budget and my priorities for the arts. I appreciate that the Arts Council’s total resource budget over the four-year period of £50·286 million represents a 7·7% reduction from the 2010-11 baseline position. I should point out that, when the Arts Council’s 2011-12 opening resource budget of £13·696 million is compared with the 2006-07 opening resource budget of £10·595 million, it is clear that investment in the arts has increased significantly during devolution. That is evidence of the Executive’s appreciation of the hugely important role played by the arts in our society. I am, however, aware that the Budget represents a major challenge to the Arts Council and the sector.

I will continue to work with my officials, the Arts Council and other stakeholders in an effort to ensure that the impact of cuts is minimised. I will also carefully consider the responses to the public consultation on the draft Budget before allocations are finalised. The Arts Council estimates that 15 to 20 arts organisations could close, with up to 100 jobs being lost over the Budget period.

Conall McDevitt (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast South)

I thank the Minister for his initial reply. Given the priority placed in the Programme for Government on growing an innovative, dynamic and creative economy, does the Minister not agree that cuts such as those that he is implementing in his departmental budget will only further undermine the creative economy’s ability to play a positive role in bringing this region out of recession and getting its people back to work?

Nelson McCausland (DUP, Belfast North)

I very much regret that our budget is not as large as one would wish, but, nevertheless, it is the budget that we have been allocated and we, along with other Departments, have to face the implications of the £4 billion cut in the Northern Ireland block grant. It is, therefore, important that we do all that we can to ensure that money is spent wisely, that we get value for money, that we seek to secure other sources of funding into the sector and that we make sure that the sector is as viable and successful as possible because, as the Member rightly says, creative industries are an important part of rebuilding, reshaping and refocusing the Northern Ireland economy.

David Hilditch (DUP, East Antrim)

Despite the cuts that the Minister is being forced to implement due to the Tory cuts, will he attempt, where possible, to protect the creative industries sector?

Nelson McCausland (DUP, Belfast North)

There are some 36,000 people in Northern Ireland employed in the creative industries or in creative occupations. The creative industries are recognised across the world for their potential for job and wealth creation. I recently announced a new investment of £4 million in the creative industries, which will build on the success of the creative industries innovation fund.

I am pleased that the Department will continue to play a catalytic role in nurturing the creative industries sector by supporting the emergence of creative talent and creative entrepreneurs who can generate significant economic benefits for the region and help rebuild and rebalance the economy. That investment recognises the importance and potential of the sector to Northern Ireland and will support the region in competing and succeeding on the world stage.

Chris Lyttle (Alliance, Belfast East)

Given the vital contribution that the community arts sector makes, particularly to local community relations and building a shared future through community regeneration, how will the Minister ensure that it will receive a fair funding allocation in the budget?

Nelson McCausland (DUP, Belfast North)

We are still working through all the details of those things, but the Member rightly identifies the importance of the community arts sector, along with that of the voluntary arts sector and the professional arts sector. They are complementary, and all have a vital role in ensuring a vibrant arts sector in Northern Ireland. Whatever can be done will be done.

Paul Butler (Sinn Féin, Lagan Valley)

The Minister said that 15 to 20 arts organisations will be affected by the reduction in the budget, with job losses incurred. How disadvantaged will rural arts projects be, compared with urban arts projects?

Nelson McCausland (DUP, Belfast North)

It is premature to go into any detail on that because we are still working with the Arts Council. Ultimately, decisions about the allocation of money across sectors will be made by the Arts Council. If there is an impact on the sector, it will be felt in urban and rural areas. We must ensure, however, that whatever happens will happen in a balanced way.

Danny Kinahan (UUP, South Antrim)

When you, Minister, were assessing the cuts caused by the Labour-DUP overspend, I wonder whether you assessed the health and welfare implications of cuts in the arts.

Nelson McCausland (DUP, Belfast North)

I want to address the issue of the impact on the Northern Ireland Budget of the draconian cuts of £4 billion imposed by the Conservative-Ulster Unionist-Liberal Democrat and, maybe, Alliance coalition at Westminster. I always find it strange that people were encouraging others to vote for the Conservatives at the previous election.

With regard to the benefits that flow from the arts, the Member mentioned health. There is a wide range of benefits: social, health and economic. All those are important issues in arguing for more resources for the arts. I recognise the point that the Member makes about the arts having a role to play in physical and mental health.

Wallace (DUP, Belfast East)

2. asked the Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure to outline the steps both he and his Department have taken to improve stadium safety. (AQO 1121/11)

Nelson McCausland (DUP, Belfast North)

Responsibility for taking steps to improve stadium safety rests, in the first instance, with the owners and operators of stadiums. However, my Department and I have for some time had in place a safe sports grounds initiative, the aim of which is to assist owners and operators of major stadiums to improve spectator safety at their grounds.

Steps that have been taken include, first, the introduction and full implementation of safety legislation, as called for by the Northern Ireland Assembly. As a result, there is now in place a statutory safety certification scheme in Northern Ireland for larger stadiums and stands, which is administered by district councils. Secondly, there is financial support for ground improvements. To date, more than £16 million has been awarded by Sport NI for that purpose, and roughly a further £1 million will be provided before the end of this financial year. Thirdly, we have established Department-approved NVQ training courses for match stewards. Those are now freely available at a number of Northern Ireland-based further education colleges. Fourthly, a Northern Ireland guide to safety at sports grounds, known as the red guide, has been published. That sets out technical guidance and standards on spectator safety issues. Finally, a safety oversight body has been created in Sport NI to provide ongoing advice and guidance on safety matters to all interested parties and to monitor the implementation of the statutory safety certification scheme.

In addition, I am supporting the Justice Minister David Ford in developing, as part of the Justice Bill, much-needed and complementary criminal law legislation to help stadium owners to combat certain forms of dangerous and disorderly conduct that can occasionally occur at games.

Wallace (DUP, Belfast East)

I thank the Minister for his answer. I am sure that he would agree that spectator safety is of the utmost importance and that it is important that the Safety of Sports Grounds Order be fully implemented. Under what programmes has funding been made available to stadium owners to carry out safety improvements to date?

Nelson McCausland (DUP, Belfast North)

Funding has been made available to date under the following Sport NI-operated programmes: an interim funding package of £3·5 million; the Football Foundation, which provides £1·17 million to football clubs only; and a stadia safety programme of £11·49 million. The remaining figure of approximately £1 million, which I mentioned in my answer to the substantive question, is being used for a stadia safety urgent works programme run by Sport NI: £531,000 for equipment and £452,000 for infrastructure works.

Barry McElduff (Sinn Féin, West Tyrone)

Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. The Minister will know that there is a direct link between stadia safety and spectator control. In light of that, will the Minister outline his position and his Department’s position on the behaviour and chanting of some local soccer fans in and around the Aviva Stadium in Dublin recently? What steps are his Department taking in association with Sport NI and the IFA to ensure that there is no recurrence of such offensive behaviour when local soccer fans return to Dublin in May?

Nelson McCausland (DUP, Belfast North)

I am tempted to say that the legislation that we are dealing with relates to stadia in Northern Ireland. The events to which the Member referred happened in the Irish Republic, which is another country.

The behaviour in Dublin that we saw on a YouTube clip was, obviously, deeply disappointing and totally unrepresentative of the good behaviour of the overwhelming majority of the 6,000 Northern Ireland fans who were in Dublin for the match. Much work has been done by the IFA and the Amalgamation of Official Northern Ireland Supporters Clubs to address issues with behaviour, and they have been recognised as being among the very best supporters in Europe. It is regrettable that that reputation has been tarnished by the appalling behaviour of a small number of people in Dublin.

Alban Maginness (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast North)

I concur with what the Minister said about the appalling behaviour of some fans.

Will the Minister reassure the House that all sporting organisations, whatever stadia they have, will have access to the necessary resources to bring their stadia up to the required health and safety standards that the Minister is working towards?

Nelson McCausland (DUP, Belfast North)

The Member homed in on the phrase “all sporting organisations”. I assure him that we treat all sports equitably, fairly and independently. We are absolutely clear on that, and it is something that I made very clear to all the main sporting bodies on meeting their representatives when I took over the position two years ago.

David McClarty (Independent, East Londonderry)

Question 3 has been withdrawn.

Brian Wilson (Green, North Down)

4. asked the Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure whether he will consider compensating those bodies which incurred significant expenditure in planning the five elite sports facilities for which funding has now been withdrawn. (AQO 1123/11)

Nelson McCausland (DUP, Belfast North)

All Departments are going through the biggest budget cuts that have been experienced in a generation, as a result of the Conservative and Liberal Democrat imposition on our Budget. I say that for the benefit of Members who had forgotten that. As a result, while some of my Department’s key priorities were met, others were not. I am disappointed not to have the funding to invest in the major facilities and infrastructure programme, which is more commonly known as elite facilities. I am conscious of the commitment and work put in by organisations and individuals in developing their projects and in bringing all the preferred bidders’ bids to the outline business case stage.

As regards compensating those preferred bidders for the expense of developing business cases, in line with general and accepted practice for all applications for capital funding to my Department and, indeed, to many organisations within and without government, any expense incurred in making a bid to the programme was taken at risk. It was made clear to applicants at various stages throughout the process that that was the case and that the programme was dependent on securing the related budget. In such circumstances, I regret that there is no provision to refund costs incurred by the preferred bidders.

Brian Wilson (Green, North Down)

I thank the Minister for his response. Unfortunately, I find it very disappointing. The withdrawal of funding at this late stage is unacceptable. I will refer to the case of Ballyholme Yacht Club and its application. I declare an interest, as the council provided a £5,000 grant towards the application. The club spent £40,000 on putting forward its application, which is money that could have been used in the club. Does the Minister not feel any responsibility to offer some form of compensation?

Nelson McCausland (DUP, Belfast North)

The Member used the word “withdrawal”, but money was not actually withdrawn. Money was bid for, but, when the Executive allocated resources to the various Departments, money was not allocated to that particular purpose. Therefore, it is not a case of withdrawing that money; it was not there to be withdrawn.

I dealt with the issue that the Member raised about refunds in my initial answer. It is not general or accepted practice for refunds to be made in applications for capital funding, and those projects are taken forward at risk. I understand and share the Member’s disappointment that we are unable to take those projects forward. It would give me great pleasure to do so. However, we are unable to do that at present, and that is an unfortunate consequence of the situation that we face.

Jim Wells (DUP, South Down)

I am sure that all Members also feel that it was regrettable that the Minister was unable to get the funding that he requested. Had that funding been available and had the projects gone through to the final stage and been accepted, what would the revenue consequences have been for the providers? I refer particularly to my council area, Down District Council, in which there is an application to build a velodrome.

Nelson McCausland (DUP, Belfast North)

I welcome the Member’s question, and he raises a very important point. There is no guarantee that all the projects would have gone ahead. Projects were required to demonstrate, through their outline business case, that, among other things, there was definable need and operational viability.

The outline business cases were closely examined by economists from Sport NI and DCAL. My Department’s economists identified a range of issues, including demonstrable need, value for money and, as the Member identified, the ongoing running costs of the projects. By way of example, one project proposed to operate at a considerable operating loss, which potentially would have presented the ratepayers in that council area with a substantial bill of some £700,000 to £800,000 a year. Some projects also created revenue consequentials from borrowing requirements, and my Department, rightly, needs to consider those issues when examining the value for money and ongoing viability of major projects. Those issues would have needed to be examined further by the applicants, with no certainty that they could have been resolved to the satisfaction of the Department. Given the financial scale of the projects, it would also have been necessary to refer the outline business cases to DFP for scrutiny and approval.

The business case for the velodrome in Down District Council area estimated that the borrowing that the council would need to take the project forward would add 3·4% to district rates. A further impact on the district rates would be the additional £250,000 required to run the velodrome, and that would be over and above the running costs for a replacement leisure centre. Broad estimates indicate that that would add a further 1·6% to district rates, bringing the overall impact of financing the project and paying the extra running costs to an additional 5% on district rates. That also assumed that the council would receive £4 million from the sale of the land.

The proposal for a basketball and volleyball centre of excellence in Lisburn and the Antrim athletic project —

David McClarty (Independent, East Londonderry)

Time, Minister.

Nelson McCausland (DUP, Belfast North)

Those projects would have had annual operating deficits of around £110,000 and £100,000 respectively.

Willie Clarke (Sinn Féin, South Down)

Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. By the sound of it, the Minister will not compensate the councils. However, I believe that he should, because the councils concerned have put considerable time and resources into those projects. Following on from Jim Wells’s question, could the Minister not progress the velodrome project to the third stage and allow for the possibility of resources for capital projects becoming available?

Nelson McCausland (DUP, Belfast North)

It is absolutely essential to have a business case that stacks up, and I would have thought that the Member would understand that. In my answer to Mr Wells, I indicated that an increase of 5% in the district rates for Down District Council would have been required to pay for the velodrome. Perhaps that council would have been happy to do that —

Willie Clarke (Sinn Féin, South Down)

There is a new leisure complex —