Northern Ireland Assembly, 4 October 2011

273 contributions from 55 members. The official report.

Ministerial Statement

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

Order. The Minister of Health, Social Services and Public Safety wishes to make a statement.

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

I wish to make the following statement on the twelfth North/South Ministerial Council (NSMC) meeting in health and food safety sectoral format, which took place in the NSMC joint secretarial offices in Armagh on Wednesday 20 July 2011. The Executive were represented by me as Minister of Health, Social Services and Public Safety and by Martina Anderson MLA, junior Minister for the Office of the First Minister and deputy First Minister (OFMDFM). This statement has been endorsed by Minister Anderson. The Irish Government were represented by James Reilly TD, the Minister for Health, who chaired the meeting, and he was accompanied by Frances Fitzgerald TD, the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs.

James Reilly and I used the occasion to launch the 2010 cancer consortium annual report, entitled ‘International Cooperation in Cancer Control: Overcoming Challenges Through Leadership and Training’. The publication marks the eleventh anniversary of this highly beneficial collaboration between our two jurisdictions and the National Cancer Institute in Washington DC in the United States of America. We also noted the high-level review of consortium activities that was conducted to inform the drafting of a revised memorandum of understanding to cover 2011-16. It is anticipated that all three participating member countries will sign the revised memorandum in November 2011.

Ministers also welcomed the launch of the All-Ireland Institute of Hospice and Palliative Care, which was established to expand education, research, policy and service development in palliative care.

Ministers noted progress in tackling alcohol abuse, tobacco consumption and obesity and welcomed plans for a North/South conference on alcohol misuse to be held in the autumn. The Council welcomed cross-border co-operation between the Northern Ireland Fire and Rescue Service and firefighters from the six border fire and rescue services on the Driving Change project. Ministers also welcomed co-operation between the Northern Ireland Ambulance Service and the HSE National Ambulance Service through the development of a memorandum of understanding that will provide for cross-border assistance in the event of major incidents.

On the subject of the all-island action plan on suicide prevention, we noted the publication of the all-island evaluation of applied suicide intervention skills training (ASIST) and the fact that, by the end of 2011, over 25,000 people will have completed the ASIST training programme. Ministers noted that consideration is being given to rolling out the register of deliberate self-harm across Northern Ireland and that under the new area of action — suicide and the economic downturn — a range of initiatives has been shared between the National Office for Suicide Prevention and the Public Health Agency.

Ministers looked forward to the commencement of the all-island men’s health forum, which seeks to help males in crisis and emotional distress, and there are plans in place for pilot initiatives to be taken forward in the autumn. Ministers were informed of the continuing progress in advancing co-operation on child welfare and protection, including an update on the continued co-operation by the two police services and social services on sharing information on a cross-border basis on individuals who may pose a risk to children.

In the food safety sector, Ministers received a progress report on the activities of Safefood, including promotional activities already undertaken and those that are planned as well as the review of current and previous research activities. The report also advised of an extension to the term of the obesity action forum, which assists in identifying common areas in obesity reduction policies. We also approved Safefood’s 2011-13 corporate plan and 2011 business plan and recommended budget provision for 2011 of €8·5 million or £6·97 million. It was noted that indicative budgets of €8·5 million or £6·97 million for each of the years 2012 and 2013 would be subject to budgetary consideration by the Executive and the Irish Government.

Ministers noted that key objectives for Safefood for 2011-13 include empowering individuals to make healthier and safer choices in relation to food safety and healthy eating and supporting communities, including those at social and economic disadvantage, to achieve better food safety and healthy eating outcomes.

Michelle Gildernew (Sinn Féin, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

Go raibh míle maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. I welcome the Minister’s statement and thank him for it. I am sure that he cannot but be impressed by the amount of collaborative working that there is on health on an all-Ireland basis and by how better services are provided at a lower cost to people across the island.

The Minister referred to the progress that has been made on the all-island action plan on suicide prevention and said that the Public Health Agency and the National Office for Suicide Prevention will undertake initiatives to tackle the impact of the economic downturn on suicide. Will the Minister provide details of those initiatives and what they involve? We welcome all the work that the Minister and other Ministers carry out on this very difficult issue.

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

There has been a rolling programme of all-island actions on suicide prevention, and it has been developed in conjunction with my officials and their colleagues in the Republic of Ireland. Areas where there is co-operation or where co-operation is being considered include training, media monitoring, self-harm data collection, public awareness campaigns and the promotion of positive mental health in men. Positive work is being carried out in quite a range of areas.

Paula Bradley (DUP, Belfast North)

I thank the Minister for his statement. Will the Minister tell us where such co-operation sits with the overall cancer services?

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

I announced on 23 May this year that we would commission the construction of a radiotherapy unit in Altnagelvin Hospital that would be used by people in the Republic of Ireland. We have been working closely on that. We believe that the satellite unit will have a major benefit for people in Northern Ireland, and it will make a major contribution to the fight against cancer for people in the Irish Republic, particularly people in Donegal. We are happy to work with the Irish Government on that.

We are also engaged with the National Cancer Institute in America, with which we are working on cancer research. It is a tremendous opportunity to work with an organisation of real excellence and help people on both sides of the border to have a better chance of fighting cancer as a result of that.

Danny Kinahan (UUP, South Antrim)

I thank the Minister for his statement. It covers a wide range of matters. I welcome the fact that at the end of this year more than 25,000 people will have gone through the applied suicide intervention skills training. Will the Minister detail whether that training is mandatory for health employees across the trusts and whether it is being targeted specifically towards those who hold positions in the community?

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

No, the training is not mandatory. We are particularly encouraging key people in trusts and, indeed, in GP services to take up training, as we believe that it would be very beneficial to them in identifying the problems at an early stage and in seeking to address those problems at the earliest possible point, as opposed to letting them develop further, which has devastating consequences.

Dolores Kelly (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Upper Bann)

I thank the Minister for his statement. In relation to the work and co-operation on cancer control, we were informed by your predecessor that cancer on the island of Ireland had substantially increased. Have you given any consideration to an all-island agreement on the purchasing of drugs to treat cancer, given their high cost, so that people can access the most effective forms of treatment for cancer and, indeed, pain control?

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

I thank the deputy-in-waiting for her question. She has seen off all other runners.

I will get back to a serious subject. Unfortunately, across the island of Ireland, there are 6% to 7% additional cases each year, so it is a big problem. As people live longer, there is a greater likelihood of getting cancer, so some of it is down to the fact that people are living longer.

We certainly have a problem in Northern Ireland in relation to appropriate and adequate drugs. We take our guidance from the National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence (NICE), which is UK-based, and we are currently not buying the same drugs as other parts of the United Kingdom. I have made it clear that that is something that I cannot stand over and that I am therefore seeking solutions. I want to ensure that we are in a position to buy drugs that are effective for people who have cancer and help them to overcome that awful illness.

Kieran McCarthy (Alliance, Strangford)

I thank the Minister for his statement. He said:

“Ministers noted progress in tackling alcohol abuse, tobacco consumption and obesity”.

I do not see any mention of the scourge of drug abuse or substance abuse, which applies right across the board. Will the Minister tell us whether it was mentioned in any other aspect of the meeting? There was a lot of coverage, and we must congratulate the Ministers on their work, but that was not mentioned in the statement. Has it been mentioned elsewhere?

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

It was not mentioned at this particular meeting. As the Member has rightly indicated, we covered a wide range of subjects. It would be impossible to cover every aspect of health in one meeting, but I have absolutely no doubt that it will be discussed at some length at future meetings.

Gordon Dunne (DUP, North Down)

I thank the Minister for his statement. Will he tell us whether cancer research remains a priority? Why is it still so important?

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

I think that cancer research is a very high priority. It is important because the chances of recovering from cancer today are far greater than they were 10, 20, 30 or 40 years ago, and that is down to good research and the implementation of that research. Without it, people will lose their life, and we therefore want to ensure that people engage in research.

I have already expressed concern that we do not contribute to the research budget that is available in the UK, which means that we cannot bid for research from that fund. That is another issue that I would like to see addressed in future. Nevertheless, we are working with the all-Ireland National Cancer Institute Cancer Consortium, the aim of which is to reduce the incidence and mortality of cancer throughout Ireland, North and South. The consortium’s activities are funded by HSC research and development (HSCR&D), which is a division of the Public Health Agency. The annual allocation of funding to HSCR&D comes from my Department, so we are investing in that area. The National Cancer Institute has a board of directors, which is made up of the Chief Medical Officers from Northern Ireland, the Irish Republic and the United States and the institute’s director. That organisation has invested €11 million over five years, €7 million of which has been provided by the group of funders, and the institute has undertaken to achieve the final €4 million through fundraising. By tapping into one of the largest cancer research institutions in the world, we are able to benefit from and buy into its particular field of work, so that is a good use of money.

Michaela Boyle (Sinn Féin, West Tyrone)

Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. I thank the Minister for his statement. It was mentioned earlier, but, because this is breast cancer awareness month, many people will be waiting to hear the news that the planned radiotherapy centre is on track. Will he come back to the House in the near future to assure us that things are on track? Will we get regular updates?

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

I am glad to say that the radiotherapy centre is still on track. Unfortunately, there is still quite a wait, which means that people will have to travel for a considerable time to come. In the intervening period, we will install new lines in Belfast City Hospital, where new investment will enable it to deal with the rising numbers. That will not deal with the problem indefinitely, but the satellite centre will be created in 2016, and it will be able to do so for the foreseeable future thereafter. That is really good news for cancer sufferers. The feedback that I have received from people across Northern Ireland is that they greatly appreciate the fact that the centre is proceeding.

Pam Lewis (DUP, South Antrim)

I thank the Minister for his statement. What is the source of funding for Northern Ireland’s participation in the cancer consortium?

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

We fund the consortium through the Public Health Agency, and the money comes from the DHSSPS budget. It is important that the Assembly, as government, encourages and drives the public health agenda and invests in public health. As a group of politicians, we may not see all the benefits because many will be generational. Nonetheless, if we are to leave an indelible mark for good, we can do it in this area. We can make real, life-changing differences for people in Northern Ireland and change attitudes so that their health can be greatly enhanced as a consequence.

Mike Nesbitt (UUP, Strangford)

I thank the Minister. According to seafood’s corporate plan for 2011-13, it has an indicative budget in the region of £21 million or several pounds per citizen on the island. How will citizens know that the money is well spent?

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

The Member was, possibly, referring to Safefood, as opposed to seafood. If we were to spend £21 million on seafood diets, we would all be obese, so that would not be a good idea. Nonetheless, the Member makes a relevant point.

Safefood has brought forward its proposals for that money. They will be inspected by both Departments. We live in a time in which budgets are constrained, so there is absolutely no guarantee that £21 million will ultimately be spent on that. I have asked that we look at areas in which there is a crossover, particularly with the Food Standards Agency, so that services are not duplicated. I have also asked that we look at areas that should be the responsibility of the Public Health Agency. We want to ensure that all the money for this area is well spent and that services are not duplicated.

Mickey Brady (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. I thank the Minister for his statement. The Minister mentioned an all-island men’s health forum and the commencement of pilot initiatives, possibly in the autumn. Will he give us some more detail on a timeline and where the pilot initiatives may be placed?

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

As I said, we will kick it off in the autumn. It is important that we look after men’s health because that issue is often ignored, and, as a consequence, among men, a higher number of cancer cases are not cured. We have invested in bowel screening, for example, because bowel cancer is more frequently associated with men. So far, the feedback has been very good. Early detection means that people’s lives are being saved because cancer is not entering other organs. Great work can be done for men, and driving that agenda means that people on both sides of the border will see real benefits.

Conall McDevitt (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast South)

I join colleagues in thanking the Minister for what is, by all accounts, a pretty comprehensive report. I specifically welcome the continued co-operation on child welfare and protection. Will the Minister inform the House whether he and his Southern counterpart have started a specific conversation about how the inquiries into clerical and diocesan-level abuse that are taking place in the Republic can be co-ordinated across the island of Ireland, as they are, by definition, North/South issues?

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

I am not sure whether that was a compliment from the Member, and I am not sure how I should take it if it was. Maybe I should take it as an insult. Nonetheless, I thank the Member.

We have certainly failed in the area of child protection in the past, but we are currently doing very good work. The better our results, the more cases will come forward. That is a demonstration of good practice. I welcome the fact that my staff are very busy; we need to get on top of the issue. It does not need to take place underneath the radar, where children are exploited and hurt and we are not able to get to it.

I have a couple of comments about investigating the past. I am opposed to going down the route that was used in the Republic of Ireland. I am opposed to the judiciary and legal people getting heavily involved in a process in Northern Ireland to find the truth. Too many public inquiries have been taken over and dominated by barristers and solicitors who have made excessive sums of money from other people’s misery. Therefore, the further we stay away from judicial inquiries and get straight to the truth, the better for victims, the shorter the inquiry, the less pain and trauma victims are put through and the quicker they get results. I welcome the inquiry that has been proposed by the Executive. I truly hope that we do not get drawn into a long judicial inquiry because we will not see the benefits of that.

We do not need an inquiry that draws my officials and staff away from the important work that they do today. I do not want the Assembly or the Department to pay the price of going after the truth of the past at the expense of looking after the children of today. It is important that we do not end up being dragged into a long judicial inquiry in which DHSSPS staff who are involved in child protection have to spend inordinate amounts of time dealing with such an inquiry, as opposed to protecting children who currently need protection.

Tom Buchanan (DUP, West Tyrone)

I thank the Minister for his statement. A lot of questions have been put to him about cancer, and I welcome the fact that he used the occasion to launch the 2010 Cancer Consortium annual report. I also welcome the ongoing collaboration in the fight against cancer. Who actually leads the Cancer Consortium, and why does he feel the need for a revised memorandum of understanding?

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

The Chief Medical Officers lead it. Dr Michael McBride is our Chief Medical Officer, and, from the US, the consortium is led by the director of the National Cancer Institute. I give great credit to the work of Dr Paddy Johnson, who started all this many years ago. He is a particular expert in the field, and he came back to Northern Ireland to lead the campaign in the fight against cancer. Individuals such as Paddy Johnson could make huge amounts of money elsewhere, but they have chosen to lead the battle against cancer in Northern Ireland, so great credit should be attributed to them.

The memorandum of understanding needs to be updated as we move to the 2011-16 period. We are moving into a new period, so it requires some updating. Hopefully, that will be completed by November and signed in that month so that we can move ahead in this very important area.

Roy Beggs (UUP, East Antrim)

I thank the Minister for his statement. Was the new food hygiene rating scheme discussed at the North/South meeting? I understand that it has been adopted by 17 of the 26 local councils, as it removes a degree of the confusion that existed with the old scheme. Would the potential for confusion as a result of different schemes operating in different jurisdictions be removed if the new scheme, which has been adopted throughout the United Kingdom, were also adopted throughout Ireland?

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

No, it was not discussed. The Food Standards Agency brought that forward. As I said earlier, I do not want duplication. If the Republic of Ireland wanted to adopt the same or a similar scheme, that would be up to them. It is easily and readily understood that, if there are five stars on a restaurant door, that restaurant is excellent, while one star means that you might be as well going to another to ensure that you do not get food poisoning.

Paul Givan (DUP, Lagan Valley)

I welcome the statement and the sharing of information between the two jurisdictions. During the meeting, was there any discussion of how the Republic of Ireland has dealt with health workers’ union representatives in dealing with the austerity measures that have been introduced in that jurisdiction? Can any lessons be learned in this jurisdiction in dealing with our own trade union partners? What credibility has the strike that has been called by UNISON tomorrow, given the negligible participation in the vote and given that the Executive have protected health workers, particularly the low paid?

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

I urge the Member to come to his question.

Paul Givan (DUP, Lagan Valley)

Is there any sharing of information with the South?

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

That is an interesting question. [Laughter.] On the austerity measures in the Republic of Ireland, I discussed with Minister Reilly how we could do things better. For example, I believe that we could provide a wider range of services at the new hospital in Fermanagh if the Republic of Ireland were to buy into them. If we were to introduce an air ambulance to Northern Ireland, it would probably have greater potential if we were to serve Donegal and, perhaps, some other counties.

I understand that, at this stage, there has not been a strike in the Republic of Ireland in spite of the fact that it has had much deeper and much more severe cuts than Northern Ireland. The fact that, in Northern Ireland, only 13% of UNISON members voted to go on strike is an indication that that is not widely supported. Vulnerable and ill people will be hurt as a consequence.

Executive Committee Business

David Ford (Alliance, South Antrim)

I beg to move

That this Assembly endorses the principle of the extension to Northern Ireland of the provisions in the London Olympic Games and Paralympic Games (Amendment) Bill dealing with ticket touting.

I seek the Assembly’s approval for this legislative consent motion (LCM). The London Olympic Games and Paralympic Games (Amendment) Bill makes a small number of technical amendments to the commercial and traffic-management provisions of the London Olympic Games and Paralympic Games Act 2006. The only provision of the Bill that extends to Northern Ireland and which requires this legislative consent motion is on ticket touting for the Olympic Games. The provision amends the penalty for unauthorised ticket sales for Olympic and Paralympic events and covers matters on which the Assembly normally legislates for Northern Ireland, such as those covering criminal penalties and sport.

Although the LCM concerns a penalty only, it is worth noting at this point that the underpinning offence to which it relates is already UK-wide. The offence of Olympic ticket touting was created in the 2006 Act and, therefore, already applies in Northern Ireland. Under the 2006 Act, it is an offence to sell an Olympic ticket in a public place or for profit without written authorisation from the London Organising Committee of the Olympic and Paralympic Games. The current maximum penalty for the offence is a level 5 fine, which is £5,000. The Department for Culture, Media and Sport (DCMS), the sponsor of the Bill, wishes to increase the maximum fine to £20,000 across the UK. DCMS is concerned about the low deterrent potential of £5,000, especially given the likely involvement of organised criminal gangs in ticket sales for Olympic events. Its information suggests that the scale and global significance of the games makes the likelihood of touting materially higher than for other events. Touting for the games offers a lucrative source of revenue to organised criminals, and it is important to frustrate the moneymaking activities of organised criminals and to prevent them from seeking to use Northern Ireland as a back-door opportunity.

As this is a UK-wide offence, I do not wish the penalty available in Northern Ireland to be any lower than that in England, Wales or Scotland; the Scottish Government are also proposing to have the Bill increase the penalty in Scotland. It is not a practical option to increase the penalty by Assembly legislation. Given that the games are less than a year away, it would take too long and would not be a good use of Assembly time. The Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure, Carál Ní Chuilín, is content with my proposal for an LCM; I have also consulted the Committee for Justice. Some members expressed concerns, which I appreciate, about the enforceability of the offence, particularly regarding internet sales, the arrangements in place for legitimate ticket sales and the use of the LCM mechanism generally. However, the Committee was prepared to go down the route of an LCM, albeit with some reluctance.

In response to some of those concerns, I should emphasise that the police learned much about enforcement from serious ticket scams during previous games. Furthermore, members should note that the public will quite legitimately be able to sell spare tickets at face value to friends or family without committing an offence. Additionally, the London organising committee will operate an exchange system for those who wish to sell on any unwanted tickets legitimately.

Like most Members, I am reluctant in principle to resort to legislative consent motions; that is not why I sought election to a legislature. However, I believe that this one is justified and necessary for an issue with limited impact for a limited time. The Olympic movement is entitled to expect host countries to do their best to enforce its rules and to deter would-be offenders. It is also important that we do not send out a message that Northern Ireland is softer on that type of crime than the rest of the UK. Therefore, I ask Members to support the motion.

Paul Givan (DUP, Lagan Valley)

My comments will be brief. The Department advised the Committee for Justice on 9 June that the Minister wished to take the legislative consent motion to the Assembly.

The Scottish Parliament was also asked to agree a similar motion to extend the maximum penalty in its jurisdiction. The Committee took oral evidence from officials on 16 June, and some issues of concern were raised. The Minister highlighted and addressed some of them. Such issues included whether there was a practical need for the provision; whether the provisions could be enforced, given their inability to address internet sales from non-UK-based websites and ticket sales outside the UK; whether the legislation would achieve the stated aim of deterring organised crime groups by stopping major criminality; and the principle of using a legislative consent motion to deal with the issue.

Having heard the responses from officials, which are set out in the Committee report on the legislative consent motion that was circulated to Members, the Committee for Justice concluded that, on balance, it was prepared to support the Minister’s motion.

Raymond McCartney (Sinn Féin, Foyle)

Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. Beidh muid ag tabhairt tacaíochta don rún. We also support the legislative consent motion. The Chair outlined the concerns raised at Committee, and I know that the Minister and his officials are aware of them. In principle, we are not opposed to this, but it was highlighted, particularly throughout the passage of the Justice Bill, that, when we legislate for here, we should be conscious of the issues that prevail here, and we are not sure that ticket touting would have been a major concern.

There was also concern about legislation that is passed in Westminster and the use of legislative consent motions to offset our ability and power to legislate. That is our only concern, but we approve of the motion.

Karen McKevitt (Social Democratic and Labour Party, South Down)

Ticket touting is a serious issue that needs to be addressed. It is hoped that the legislative consent motion will prevent people from touting London Olympic and Paralympic Games tickets. We support the motion as a welcome addition to provisions made by the House last year to tighten the law on ticket touting in football, GAA and soccer.

David Ford (Alliance, South Antrim)

I thank the Members who contributed to the debate. Although the issue raises the concerns of the sort highlighted in particular by Mr McCartney, the Committee Chair explained the way in which the Committee addressed the issue. It recognised that there were problems, in principle, with legislative consent motions, but acknowledged that this is a particular issue to deal with a specific, short-term problem. I assure the House that the Department of Justice will not readily seek to use legislative consent motions where they can be avoided. I thank Mr Givan and the Committee for the consideration that they gave to the motion, and welcome their support.

Question put and agreed to.

Resolved:

That this Assembly endorses the principle of the extension to Northern Ireland of the provisions in the London Olympic Games and Paralympic Games (Amendment) Bill dealing with ticket touting.

Private Members’ Business

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

The Business Committee agreed to allow an hour and 30 minutes for the debate. The proposer of the motion will have 10 minutes in which to propose the motion and 10 minutes in which to make a winding-up speech. All other Members who wish to speak will have five minutes to do so.

Colum Eastwood (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

I beg to move

That this Assembly calls on the Minister for Employment and Learning to ensure the creation of 1,000 extra student places at the University of Ulster’s Magee campus during the current comprehensive spending review period in order to provide the key economic driver that is envisaged by the Ilex regeneration plan.

Derry’s politicians, business people, union representatives and community activists spent two years pulling together a regeneration plan: our ‘One Plan’. The First and deputy First Ministers were in Derry to launch that plan. Unfortunately, the ‘One Plan’ is not even mentioned in the first draft of the Programme for Government (PFG), and, every week, we have a new announcement form the Executive that further dilutes the proposals in the plan. One such proposal is for Magee to have a targeted maximum student number (MaSN) increase by 2015, with the hope that it will have 6,000 full-time students by 2020. That could add £1 billion to the regional economy by 2040. The plan — our plan — refers to Magee as the catalyst for city-wide economic renewal, with the potential to create up to 2,800 new direct and indirect jobs by 2020.

This year, Magee received 5,786 applications via the Universities and Colleges Admissions Service (UCAS), of which 4,072 were from Northern Ireland. A mere handful of those — 1,111 — were accepted, and just 727 were from the North. Magee had to reject 4,675 applications this year alone, and 3,345 of those applications were from local students. One thousand extra students would only begin to plug that gap.

On 12 September, the Minister said that:

“the Executive felt that it was financially prudent to assess the actual distortions in student flows, and to consider additional resources in due course.”

Perhaps the Minister will outline to the House what additional resources there may be and whether “due course” means within this comprehensive spending review (CSR) period.

I remind the Minister, the Executive and the House that we have been waiting since 1965 for a meaningful commitment from Stormont to Magee and to Derry. In 1965, when John Hume led 25,000 Derry people from every political persuasion to the steps of this Building, they were ignored. We will not be ignored again. If the Executive are serious about making the economy their top priority, they need to urgently tackle Magee university. We have a broad coalition of support in and outside Derry, and, no doubt, we will have support from different parties in the House. However, the time for lip service is over. The people demand action from the Executive. It is not six months since posters went up all over Derry telling us that the expansion of Magee was guaranteed. The people of Derry are now calling that guarantee.

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

Before I call the next Member, who will be Alastair Ross, I remind the House that the motion relates to student places at the University of Ulster’s Magee campus. I will allow Members to widen their contribution slightly. The motion relates to student places at a particular university, but I can understand that Members may want to go outside the motion slightly. I do not see anything wrong with that, but let us not stray too far from the motion.

Alastair Ross (DUP, East Antrim)

Thank you, Mr Speaker. I welcome your guidance. Given that this is not an Adjournment debate, perhaps it is necessary to broaden it out a little bit. We will aim to do that.

The motion calls on the Minister to ensure an additional 1,000 places at the University of Ulster’s Magee college. We have three main concerns about the motion, which is why we sought to table an amendment to address those concerns. I will try to outline those concerns during my short contribution.

First, we had an issue about looking at Magee in isolation. As I said, this is not an Adjournment debate, and, therefore, we have to take into consideration the fact that other universities, campuses and FE colleges are looking for additional places. Those who support the motion will say that Magee has asked for them, while others have not. That may be the case, but it is important for us to look at other institutions when we are debating the issue. The issue is important to the Members who tabled it as there is a particular geographical interest. However, it is important not to focus narrowly on one geographical area. We must look at our HE and FE sectors right across the board. Had our amendment been accepted, it would have widened that out a little.

The second issue relates to the 1,000 extra student places. Again, our amendment sought to get more focus on those 1,000 places. It is a little bit woolly in the sense that we wanted to focus those 1,000 places on —

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

Order. I am trying to be careful not to stifle the debate. However, the amendment that the Member is talking about was not selected. I am happy to give him a number of reasons why it was not selected if he wants to talk to me afterwards. We should not stray into an amendment that was not selected. I am not stopping or stifling the debate at all. Nevertheless, the Assembly has procedures and conventions.

Alastair Ross (DUP, East Antrim)

Thank you, Mr Speaker. I appreciate your comments. I am trying to address the motion as tabled and the reasons why we cannot ultimately support it. We can vote only on what is on the Order Paper, and the fact that we are not focusing on science, technology, engineering and mathematics (STEM) subjects specifically is of concern to us.

We know that, given our economy, we need to get more people to university. The Minister’s decision on freezing fees will help us to do that. I also know that those who support the additional places at Magee college also want to see more young people going to university and being able to compete for the graduate jobs that we hope to create here.

Dolores Kelly (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Upper Bann)

I thank the Member for giving way. I note that he is trying to explain that the reason why the DUP is not supporting the motion relates to the 1,000 places and the STEM subjects. Given that the Minister said that there will be an extra 1,000 places potentially spread across the universities, does the logic apply that those 1,000 places should be for STEM subjects only across all universities, or just Magee?

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

The Member has an extra minute.

Alastair Ross (DUP, East Antrim)

As an Assembly, I think that we want to be focusing additional places on those STEM subjects; those are the subjects that are going to be relevant in a global economy.

Stephen Farry (Alliance, North Down)

I am grateful to the Member for giving way. I was not planning on speaking so soon, but I want to put something on record, before people get too carried away. I have never said on the record that there are 1,000 places based upon the resources that have been allocated as part of the Executive’s agreement, nor have I said that there are going to be 600. We are talking about several hundreds. I want to put that in context for Members, before they work ahead on the assumption that there are 1,000 places to talk about; there are not.

Alastair Ross (DUP, East Antrim)

I think that the Minister’s contribution is helpful. The issue about the STEM subjects is one that we, perhaps, would not be so prescriptive on. However, it is important that we focus on the knowledge-based economy that we want to create in Northern Ireland. Those are the subjects that we need to focus on. The growth in the science and technology sector is going to continue over the next number of decades. It is, therefore, important that we focus on those subjects, particularly given the Assembly and the Executive’s continued efforts at devolving corporation tax and the reliance on the graduate-type jobs that will flow from that and from the foreign direct investment.

The third issue that we have with the motion is around cost. At the moment, costs are an issue in every Department. We have to be cognisant of that, particularly following the Executive decision of 8 September to freeze student fees. That was supported by parties across the House, the universities, students and families across Northern Ireland. However, in supporting the decision to freeze student fees, we were aware that there would be a financial implication and a knock-on cost. The decision came at a cost. We know that there will be constraints across the Executive Budget and, particularly, in the Department for Employment and Learning budget. The motion is lacking due to the fact that it does not refer to the cost or to the tightening of the budget.

I believe that the decision on student fees will help to increase participation and to make sure that there is not a barrier to more young people going to university. However, I think that it will have a potential impact on whether any additional places can be created at Magee college or anywhere else. That is a financial reality that we must live in.

There are, therefore, three reasons why we cannot support the motion. First, it focuses on one geographical area rather than across Northern Ireland. Secondly, it does not focus on the subjects that we desperately need to get young people into for the good of the economy in Northern Ireland. Thirdly, there is the issue of costs and the cost of doing this in tighter financial budgets, particularly given the decision that was taken on student fees.

Raymond McCartney (Sinn Féin, Foyle)

Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. Beidh Sinn Féin ag tabhairt tacaíochta don rún. Sinn Féin will support the motion. Sinn Féin has long advocated the need for the expansion of the Magee campus in particular, and my party colleague Martina Anderson was one of the people in Derry who led on that very vocally in the past number of years. We have been advocates for expansion for a variety of reasons. The neglect of third level education in Derry has been well presented over a long number of years, and I think the case has been made. The strength of the university and the reputation of the campus have grown, but that has not been reflected in the lifting of the MaSN cap or the realisation of extra spaces.

The Ilex regeneration plan for Derry is known as ‘One City, One Plan, One Voice’. It is, perhaps, one of the most comprehensive pieces of work to be carried out in Derry or, indeed, the north-west over a long number of years. At its core are attempts to tackle years and years of economic, social and political discrimination and underdevelopment. There is absolutely no doubt that, as Colum Eastwood has said, at the core of that regeneration initiative and concept is the absolute need for more university places to become the economic driver, along with many other aspects of it, in the delivery of the plan.

If we do not realize the extra places, and if the MaSN cap and the ambitions of U4D and the university are not realized in the next number of years, it will deal a blow to attempts to address years and years of economic underinvestment and regional disparity.

The case for expansion has been made. The Minister visited Derry recently and received a presentation from the university and Ilex. I listened to what he said then, and I think that he is on record as saying that he accepts the need for expansion and that he wants to work with the university to deliver that expansion. I think that he has also accepted that Magee is the only university that currently has a proposal on the table for the number of places. The Minister smiled when I said that, so it will be interesting to hear his take on that.

Stephen Farry (Alliance, North Down)

Two out of three.

Raymond McCartney (Sinn Féin, Foyle)

As the song goes: “Two out of three ain’t bad”.

Support for the expansion is important. The university has stated that publicly and forcefully on a number of occasions, and I have not heard any counterstatement from the Minister or his Department. I will listen in particular to what he has to say about the matter, and I want him to reaffirm that today. He has to say that he agrees with the expansion of Magee. It is not just about the expansion of a university campus, and the Minister must see it in the context of the regeneration of Derry and tackling regional disparity. From the point of view of his party, if it is going to make any sort of contribution to a shared future, the expansion of the Magee campus is a way of showing the people of the north-west that there is a shared future for them after years of underdevelopment.

The Minister said that there are a limited number of spaces, and that is where the debate lies and why we must focus on that particular aspect. He knows that the demand is there for STEM subjects. He must pay particular attention to that and ensure that STEM subjects feature high on his list of priorities for the extra places.

There has been speculation about the total number of places. Some reports have put it at 600, and we have heard this morning that it may be 1,000. We hope that it is 1,000, although the Minister is saying that it will not be 1,000. Whatever the number, the Minister must make a decision, in the current context, on what will have the maximum impact on the economy of the North and on the economy of the north-west in particular. If the Minister can make a decision that will get the maximum delivery and the maximum outcomes in tackling regional disparity and economic underdevelopment and that will kick-start a regeneration plan in the north-west that is focused on Derry and the Magee campus, there is no doubt that that is what he should do. The case is overwhelming. Whatever extra places the Minister can deliver should be delivered to the Magee campus.

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

The Member should bring his remarks to a close.

Raymond McCartney (Sinn Féin, Foyle)

That will be seen as a statement of his intent to make the regeneration plan work. It will also show that he wants proper third-level education in the city of Derry.

Basil McCrea (UUP, Lagan Valley)

I was surprised by the last speech. Maybe it is because I am the Chair of the Committee, but the statements that I have heard from the Minister put the number of places at nowhere near 600 or 1,000 — a few hundred is what I have heard. It is as well to get the facts right, and I am sure that the Minister will clarify that.

One of the first Acts of Parliament in this place was the Basil McCrea Endowments Act (Northern Ireland) 1923, which passed considerable sums of money to Magee College. I want people to understand that I am supportive of Magee. My colleague Mrs Overend is a graduate of Magee, so we are supportive of Magee. However, Mr McCartney’s statement that there is an overwhelming business case is simply not true; the case has not been made. You can say that there has been an increase in applications and that those are up 30% in the past —

Raymond McCartney (Sinn Féin, Foyle)

It was not me who said that the business case has been made; it was the university. As far as I am aware, that has not been publicly challenged by you or the Minister.

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

The Member has an extra minute.

Basil McCrea (UUP, Lagan Valley)

Thank you for that.

I recall that there was some discussion in Londonderry, and I challenged it. The business case has not been made and accepted. These figures are not trivial; you are asking for an extra 1,000 places. I refer to the University of Ulster, not just Magee campus. There were 8,487 places last year. You are looking for a significant uplift, and you have to realise that this is not just about Londonderry, it is about the whole of Northern Ireland.

I return to the issue of informed debate. A publication was released in March 2011 entitled ‘Identification of Priority Skill Areas For Northern Ireland — March 2011’. The report says that there is evidence of graduates moving out of Northern Ireland for better pay or jobs. We do not have jobs for the graduates we are producing. The report goes on to say that increasing our skills makes sense only if we have jobs to give the graduates. My problem is that we are doing this in a somewhat cavalier fashion: we feel that we must tick the boxes and get 1,000 more graduates, but we do not know what skills people require.

It is not that I am unsympathetic to what people are trying to do, but it is not for the Minister to dictate to any university where it will put its places or what its subjects will be. A negotiation, a discussion, is to be had but, ultimately, universities are independent institutions.

When we look at how best to address the skills gap in Northern Ireland, there are other institutions such as further education that deal with the issue in a different way. According to the report, this is what is required:

“As there is a significant increase in the number of people required with professional and technical skills, to at least level 3, it is recommended that particular emphasis is placed on the attainment of level 3 qualifications.”

That is to say, apprenticeships. If money is found, that is where I want to see it spent; that is where we need it. It is not right that the 50% of people who go to university, to higher and further education, are subsidised by the 50% of the people who do not have those skills.

Dolores Kelly (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Upper Bann)

Will the Member give way?

Basil McCrea (UUP, Lagan Valley)

I have already given way, so I will not do that.

An awful lot of people are out of work now because they used to go into jobs such as plumbing, maintenance and electricity working. Those people need our help and support as well. Those are the skills to which the Minister should rightly direct resources. I feel that they have been missed out. I give way to the Member now.

Dolores Kelly (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Upper Bann)

I thank the Member for giving way. I understand his frustration about the lack of money. One in four of the young people who left school this year has found nowhere to go. Given that the Executive have, allegedly, put the economy at the centre of this mystical Programme for Government, does the Member not consider that all of those challenges should be met?

Basil McCrea (UUP, Lagan Valley)

I agree with the Member in that respect, and that is why I have some difficulty with the motion. I agree that all areas should be tackled and that we should look at skills. The direct consequence of freezing student tuition fees at the level at which that has been done is that there are knock-on effects on other sectors.

The Minister will argue that there will be no diminution in what will be offered, because he will find it from elsewhere, but the opportunity to increase student numbers is not there, because the Executive took that decision. It is an absolute knock-on effect. No increase in fees, no more student numbers — unless the Minister goes back to the Executive and asks them for more money, which will be taken from other hard-pressed sectors. If I am not right on that, the Minister may contradict me.

(Mr Principal Deputy Speaker [Mr Molloy] in the Chair)

When it comes to making the proper decision, it is not an absolute declaration that we keep pushing more and more people into university when we cannot get them jobs. We should be looking at the real skills and needs of our people, and supporting them.

Francie Molloy (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

Will the Member please bring his remarks to a close?

Basil McCrea (UUP, Lagan Valley)

My party therefore will not support the motion.

Chris Lyttle (Alliance, Belfast East)

I welcome the opportunity to discuss the issue, and I recognise that further and higher education has a vital role to play in the regeneration of the north-west. I met many people involved in the sector in Derry, at meetings of the Committee for Employment and Learning and the Committee for the Office of the First Minister and deputy First Minister. The Magee campus strategic development plan and the Ilex regeneration plan are robust, innovative and inclusive frameworks for renewal and regeneration of the city.

I also recognise the centrality of skills provision to developing and driving our economy at regional and local level, to increasing employability, reducing social inequality and improving the quality of life of our citizens. Of course, higher education has a vital role to play in delivering those aims, but, as the previous Member mentioned, we must also invest in other key skills areas, which the Ilex plan recognises.

Therefore, although I agree with the supporters of the motion that it is vital that the Assembly does all that it can to support regeneration for Derry/Londonderry, I put it to them that, as a result of the Executive’s agreed higher education funding package, which their parties signed up to, which included the delivery of no increase in student tuition fees — issues on which they vociferously campaigned — we have to be realistic about what else can be achieved at this stage.

The Alliance Party supports the aim of increasing student numbers at the University of Ulster’s Magee campus, not least given its importance to the Derry/Londonderry regeneration plan. However, I also understand that the Executive have jointly recognised the vital role that higher education has to play across the region and have agreed a good deal that will secure what were key aims for many political parties of no increase to student tuition fees, significant ongoing public investment in our universities, and a commitment from the Minister to work with the sector to expand student places. As the Minister said, it will perhaps not be in the region of 1,000 places, which was mentioned today.

Where additional student places are possible, I ask the Minister to ensure that allocation is based on evidence of demand. The House must be realistic about what can now be achieved and where we need to target the scarce resources that we have. Therefore, I oppose the motion.

David McIlveen (DUP, North Antrim)

I, too, thank the Members who brought the motion to the House, but, like my party colleagues, I am unable to support the motion in its current form. I appreciate that the issue is very important to the city of Londonderry, especially in the context of the Ilex regeneration plan. Before I address the Magee issue specifically, I think that it is very important to put on record the efforts made by our party and the then Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure, Nelson McCausland, and also Arlene Foster, in campaigning for the city of culture bid in 2013.

We support Londonderry, and we have endeavoured to make sure as best we can that it gets the recognition that it deserves. I hope that the aim to deliver the best regeneration of any city that these islands have ever seen is fully realised. I make that point because if the motion divides the House, and, ultimately, is not carried, I think that it is very important that it does not send out an erroneous message that the Assembly is against any sort of regeneration in Londonderry. We are supportive of the city and all that it aims to achieve, but we have difficulty with the wording of the motion.

I find that I just cannot support the motion with regard to the specific creation of 1,000 extra places at the University of Ulster’s Magee campus. I understand that the plan is very closely linked with increasing the number of full-time student places. However, that is only one part of an overall strategy. I favour more places.

Raymond McCartney (Sinn Féin, Foyle)

Although you are opposing the motion, I want to put on record my appreciation that you welcome the fact that the regeneration plan is about economic regeneration and that the expansion of Magee is at the heart of it.

Francie Molloy (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

The Member will have an extra minute.

David McIlveen (DUP, North Antrim)

I thank the Member for his intervention and for his kind words. I am open to hearing what Magee campus would have to say on this issue, but, though I favour more places, I cannot favour this motion with regard to just one institution. I support more places at Queen’s University, at the other University of Ulster institutions and at the Open University. However, as we have already discussed this morning, all that is subject to funding. Everything, unfortunately, has a price. I am sure that the Minister will outline just exactly where the budget sits in relation to that

We are squeezed for funds across the higher education budget; that is no secret. Increasing places at Magee cannot be at the cost of other universities. Why should Magee be a special case? That is the question that Members who represent constituencies other than those affected have to ask. As I said, I am open to hearing what staff at Magee have to say on the issue, as the Committee for Employment and Learning has not heard enough from those staff during this Assembly term to make a full assessment about whether there is even a demand for additional places. I cannot, therefore, support the motion. Even if the budget were in place, we still lack a lot of the information that is required to make a decision.

In addition, there is a frank admission in the Ilex plan that the plan for expansion at Magee includes:

“encouraging the uptake of economically relevant study including but not restricted to STEM.”

That has already been mentioned, and we will not deviate from the topic. However, that point has not been reflected in the motion.

Any extra student places granted should focus on science, technology, engineering, and maths subjects in order to best support our economy. However, as was stated earlier, those places should not be restricted just to Magee; higher education uptake does not have to be supported only in Londonderry. In fact, the proportion of people enrolled in higher education in my constituency of North Antrim is lower than in East Londonderry and Foyle put together. If the debate is to be parochial, I would say, in support of my constituency, that we need more places in the Northern Regional College, especially when we consider Northern Ireland’s poor record on essential skills provision. I cannot support the motion. I do, however, urge the House to consider increases in student places across the Province, where possible, with a particular focus on STEM subjects.

Barry McElduff (Sinn Féin, West Tyrone)

Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. Ba mhaith liom tacaíocht a chur in iúl don rún. I support the motion tabled by, among others, Colum Eastwood, who is not in his place at this time, and which was supported by Raymond McCartney during the debate.

Mr Ross said that the motion was too narrowly focused on one geographic area. However, it has relevance for a wider geographic area than the city of Derry alone. We are talking about the entire region, but in particular west of the Bann, where a strong case needs to be made for regeneration and a degree of economic rebalancing. The Minister and the Department for Employment and Learning, one of the economic Ministries, have a key role to play in addressing the dual challenge of tackling disadvantage and helping to grow and, indeed, rebalance the economy. I ask the Minister to think strategically about what measures he and his Department can take in that regard.

The statement that accompanied the announcement about the review and freezing of tuition fees included additional notes to editors and was circulated to various newspapers. I was drawn to a particular phrase in paragraph 8, which stated that:

“any new student places will only be in areas of economic relevance”.

As Raymond McCartney said, where the difference can be made is in areas of economic relevance, and where the Department can make a difference is, essentially, at Magee. That is where additional places would have the maximum impact.

There is no contest in the University of Ulster about where additional places should be allocated. It is my understanding that the University of Ulster has said that, whichever number of additional places may be allocated — we are arguing for the greater number — those places should be allocated to Magee and that the expansion of Magee is the linchpin not only of the north-west regeneration plan but of the University of Ulster’s strategic plan.

In his response to the debate, I would like the Minister’s clarification on the level of demand for places at the Magee campus. I understand that as many as five students compete for every place that becomes available at Magee. Chris Lyttle said that he wants to see evidence of demand; so do I. I would like the Minister to address the issue of demand.

In conclusion, a Phríomh-LeasCheann Comhairle, I ask that the Minister also clarifies his own party’s position in respect of its election manifesto. I understand that, on page 57, specific commitments to expansion of the Magee campus are made. Go raibh maith agat.

Sammy Douglas (DUP, Belfast East)

As an Assembly Member, I recognise the importance of improving the lives of people throughout Northern Ireland and of not looking at issues purely on a personal level with regard to my constituency of East Belfast.

I recognise the serious social and economic problems that face people in the north-west. Recent depressing unemployment figures show a 13-year high; a statistic that masks its adverse effects on families and the daily grind of poverty that many people face in that area. Therefore, from the outset, I want to state clearly that expansion of the Magee campus is an important pillar of the north-west’s social and economic regeneration hopes as outlined in the Ilex regeneration plan.

Last night, I read that, in 2010, some 6,000 students applied for places at Magee, yet there were only 700 places available. Evidence of demand should, therefore, be forthcoming. Certainly, the Committee for Employment and Learning would like to see that evidence at a future meeting.

If one looks at the number of university places in Northern Ireland per head of the population, it is clear that it has the smallest higher education sector of all regions of the United Kingdom. Coupled with that, the size of Northern Ireland’s higher education sector per head of the population puts it joint bottom of the league with the east of England. It is clear for all to see that Northern Ireland needs a bigger higher education sector and more student places if it is to keep pace with the rest of the United Kingdom. Even more importantly, there needs to be growth in that sector if Northern Ireland is to compete seriously in an increasingly competitive and shrinking economy. I would like to see proposals come forward at a future Committee meeting.

This morning, the Minister stated that there could, potentially, be 300 extra places. We have heard that there might be 600 or 1,000 extra places. My problem is that, at present, Magee, notwithstanding all its needs, will be the only institution to benefit. My fear is that that could prove extremely detrimental to other universities and colleges throughout the Province. I believe that it was Mr McCrea who mentioned the importance of apprenticeships. Certainly, I get weekly demands for training and apprenticeships from people in Ballymacarrett, whether from the lower Newtownards Road or Short Strand. I suppose that, within tight budgetary constraints, we are all trying to develop and encourage initiatives in our own areas.

Other universities and regional colleges should be considered for the provision of potential extra student places throughout Northern Ireland. The Magee campus should be included in that consideration. Provision of STEM subjects should also be considered in order to provide a key driver for the economy. In 2010, a Confederation of British Industry (CBI) survey entitled ‘Ready to Grow’ identified a shortage of STEM skills at all levels. It identified an under-supply of those skills and reckoned that the problem is likely to get worse. The CBI policy adviser Leo Ringer stated:

“Over the next three years, more than half of all employers predict difficulty finding the STEM talent they need, which could act as a barrier to business growth in key areas such as low-carbon manufacturing and the creative industries”.

As the Member said, it is important that we focus on STEM if there are going to be additional places.

I am not saying that higher education is only about STEM. We need to recognise that it is not an academic route for everyone. Indeed, 10% of all STEM students drop out in the first year. Just last Friday, Google announced over 200 jobs at a new £65 million data centre in Dublin. That is very much about the creative industries —

Francie Molloy (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

Bring your remarks to a close.

Sammy Douglas (DUP, Belfast East)

— and encouraging training and education in that sector.

Francie Molloy (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

Before I call the next Member, I remind Members to stick to the motion.

Sandra Overend (UUP, Mid Ulster)

I welcome the opportunity to speak on the motion, and I thank the Members who tabled it. As a past student of the University of Ulster at Magee College, I look back on my time there with great fondness. Despite all the strife that Londonderry suffered over the years, when I studied in the city, there was a great student community, and we always felt that the residents welcomed us very much. I have some great memories of my time there, and it is my hope and desire that it goes from strength to strength as an educational establishment.

I am not against the motion in principle. However, in practice, the outworkings of the decision to cap student fees, as well as the Department’s sustained contribution to the two HE establishments, will be phenomenal for the higher education sector and, specifically, its ability to increase student places.

Dolores Kelly (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Upper Bann)

I am very concerned at increased funding for tuition fees being the sole argument as to why places at Magee should be capped, given that, only last week, the Office of the First Minister and deputy First Minister (OFMDFM) announced an £80 million social investment fund, otherwise known as its slush fund, without even telling the Committee for the Office of the First Minister and deputy First Minister. Does the Member agree that the money that went to other budgetary headlines could provide the places, if education and the economy are the main drivers in the mystical Programme for Government?

Francie Molloy (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

The Member will have an extra minute.

Sandra Overend (UUP, Mid Ulster)

I thank the Member for her intervention. It is another example of the need for improved, joined-up government, and I will go into the detail.

When the Minister met the Committee for Employment and Learning, he said that there are consequences that flow from the decision. I wonder how many people are going into this with their eyes closed to what those consequences might be. We have to be careful that, in seeking to increase the number of places at Magee, we do not disproportionately affect the resources for areas such as apprenticeships and further education colleges.

Not only are students discouraged from travelling to other parts of the UK to study at university, but we are now actively discouraging students to come to Northern Ireland from Scotland, England and Wales to study. The result will be that demand for student places in Northern Ireland will rise. If demand rises without sufficient supply, the result will be an increase in the universities’ grade requirements. How else will they determine who will be awarded the university places?

It is unfortunate that this will erode the strides that the previous — might I say, Ulster Unionist — Ministers for Employment and Learning took towards making university places accessible to a huge range of people in Northern Ireland from various socio-economic backgrounds and making university attendance not just for the elite.

We can wish for the sun, moon and stars, but the current state of the Department for Employment and Learning (DEL) budget sets the future agenda for university places. The Minister has set his target for increasing student places by a few hundred but, because of financial constraints, I guess, is unable to define any specific time frame for that. Moreover, I understand that it is not in his power to decide where those student places will be offered, whether in Belfast, Jordanstown, Coleraine or Magee. He can encourage better targeting, but, at the end of the day, the universities have control of that.

With all that in mind, I ask the Minister to look at other areas where he could help the key economic driver that is envisaged by the Ilex regeneration plan. An increase in apprenticeships is one suggestion, especially given the need to increase our students’ capacity in the STEM subject areas, as has been a recommended specialism for the suggested extra student places at Magee. Our FE colleges are ideally suited to help deliver on this issue. Furthermore, while the MaSN cap is not set to increase by any more than a few hundred, I wonder whether the Minister will encourage universities to increase the number of part-time courses available in these key subjects.

In conclusion, is the Minister prepared to think strategically about the economic regeneration of all arts and parts of Northern Ireland? It is time for some joined-up thinking on the delivery of the higher and further education sectors.

Conall McDevitt (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast South)

Nearly 45 years ago, the men and women who went on to found the SDLP led a march to the front door of this very Building. They united the city of Derry behind a single call for a university that would service all the people of the north-west of this island. That spirit seems to have been lost along the way, and we sit here today debating the need to put some energy back into what the Executive allegedly support.

OFMDFM is the sponsoring Department of Ilex. The growth of the Magee campus and the arrival of extra students are key elements in the regeneration of the city of Derry. Yet, for some reason, that does not appear to be a priority for the Executive. I am also aware that the regional development strategy clearly identifies the city of Derry as the north-west’s regional hub. Again, I am not aware of any party in the Executive that dissents from the principles of the regional development strategy, except when it comes to actually doing something about them.

This is the basic issue: are we all talk, or is there any substance behind what we put on paper and behind the commitments that we make to people? The people of Derry are beginning to wonder what the Executive will ever do for them.

The Magee campus is not the only example: Mr Eastwood covered an entire programme-for-government’s worth of examples where the city of Derry can look to the Chamber with disappointment.

In the House yesterday, I asked the Minister for Employment and Learning whether he agreed that it was time to make supporting third-level education a financial priority. He said:

“The answer to that is a very simple no.” — [Official Report, Vol 67, No 1, p37, col 2].

What sort of region refuses to make funding third-level education a financial priority? What sort of region reduces a debate about the regeneration of our second city — the most important city to everyone in the north-west of this island — to that sort of argument? That is what has been peddled in the House today. I do not want to see the people of Derry having to unite for the second time in two generations and marching to the steps of this Building to demand what is rightly theirs: equality, fairness and the same opportunity that anyone else is entitled to. I fear, however, that that may well come to pass again. John Hume had to march the city to the Building in the late1960s; Mark Durkan, Colum Eastwood, Pat Ramsey and Mark H Durkan, with others, may have to do the same in the future. It is simply not right or fair to ignore all the commitments that we make to the city of Derry because it does not suit us financially.

Some people wondered whether the elephant in the room was the fact that, for ill or for good, the composition of the Magee campus reflects the general population of the north-west of Northern Ireland and the north-west of the island of Ireland.

Dolores Kelly (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Upper Bann)

Is it not a fact that, each year, over 2,000 young Catholics get university places in Derry as opposed to under 500 from the Protestant community? Is that the elephant in the room to which you refer?

Francie Molloy (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

The Member has an extra minute in which to speak.

Conall McDevitt (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast South)

I hope that the elephant in the room is not that. If it is, the people of Derry will have a further question to ask about this place. Is it failing on not only what it puts on paper but by actually perpetuating an old prejudice that has dogged the city for generations, a prejudice that prevented its development, that held it back, and that everyone in this region, I think, would have the right to expect no longer exists?

I understand that the city of Derry does not provide the Minister’s party with a great amount of political support. I accept that. However, it is an absolute fact that the city of Derry is a fundamental and central part of the regional development strategy, that it has the alleged commitment of the Office of the First Minister and deputy First Minister and the entire Executive to its regeneration, and that it is entitled to expect, in the same way as every other town and city in this region expects, that it would understand the value of education —

Francie Molloy (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

Bring your remarks to a close.

Conall McDevitt (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast South)

— and would understand that if you fail to invest in it, you fail to invest in society.

Tom Buchanan (DUP, West Tyrone)

I will, first, apologise to the Member who moved the motion for missing his contribution. I want to express my disappointment that the Democratic Unionist Party amendment was not selected. Therefore, as my colleagues highlighted, the narrow focus of the motion means that we are unable to support it, and I thank my colleague Alastair Ross for clearly highlighting the reasons why. Although I understand the proposer’s sentiments and his desire to see the expansion of Magee, which is in his constituency, by another 1,000 student places in this CSR period, he is failing to face up to the fact that we are working within a limited budget. I think that that is lacking from today’s motion.

Alastair Ross (DUP, East Antrim)

I thank the Member for giving way. Does he agree that the previous speaker, Mr McDevitt, took a rather worrying turn when he almost tried to sectarianise this debate? The reasons that this party outlined for not supporting the motion have nothing to do with that. In fact, they were genuine reasons, which Mr McDevitt did not allude to during his contribution, such as the financial impact, particularly in the context of student fees having been frozen.

Francie Molloy (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

The Member has an extra minute.

Tom Buchanan (DUP, West Tyrone)

I thank the Member for his intervention. It is unfortunate that Mr McDevitt sought to turn the debate in that direction, where it was not meant to be turned at all.

I would like it if we were in a position to support the new places at Magee without that having a detrimental effect on the other universities and colleges. However, in the current climate, that is simply not possible. The moment we do that, however, I can see those in the other universities and regional colleges in Northern Ireland being up in arms crying discrimination and inequality, and rightly so, for why should we as an Assembly give precedence to one college or university over another?

In my constituency of West Tyrone, I have been lobbied by the regional college in Omagh for an increase in the MaSN cap to allow it to increase student places so that it, too, can develop its STEM subjects, which are the key driver in our economy. I am sure that Members right across the House face exactly the same situation in their constituencies. If we as an Assembly are serious about STEM delivery across Northern Ireland as the key driver for the economy, we need to broaden our focus so that all our universities and regional colleges will benefit from any increase in student places. We will not stand guilty of creating a situation where one college takes precedence over another.

I know that the Minister has pledged to make a modest increase in student numbers in this CSR period, but, in doing so, he has also sounded the warning bells that they will only be in the low hundreds. Again, I call on the Minister to give serious consideration to this issue so that all universities and colleges can benefit and continue to prosper.

I have heard the argument made by Members that any available student places should be focused towards the expansion and development of Magee owing to the benefit that that would have for the north-west, as that is where the maximum benefit can be found. Although that may be a legitimate argument, I again bring the focus back to the other regional colleges, especially in the south-west, where extra student places in the likes of Omagh, Enniskillen and Dungannon would make a huge difference, enabling colleges there to expand on the courses offered and allowing students to study much closer to home. Let us remember that it is the students from that rural area who have, for years, been the victim of travel — they have always had to travel to study. The courses were not available for them in those areas but were in Belfast or Londonderry.

I note that, in June, in answer to a question from a Member regarding the viability of expanding the Magee campus, the Minister stated that that would be viable only:

“if the University of Ulster could attract sufficient students who meet the entrance criteria and secure a sustainable funding stream to meet the infrastructural and teaching costs involved”.

I also note that the capital cost alone of expanding the university currently stands at some £200 million. That begs the question of whether the college has the capacity and a funding package to sustain the viability of the creation of the 1,000 extra places proposed in the motion.

I urge the Minister to ensure that the provision of any extra student places is of equal status across Northern Ireland universities and regional colleges, including the Magee campus, and is focused on the STEM subjects —

Francie Molloy (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

Bring your remarks to a close.

Tom Buchanan (DUP, West Tyrone)

— in order to provide a key driver for the economy and the regeneration of all our constituencies right across Northern Ireland. On that basis, we cannot support the motion.

Stephen Farry (Alliance, North Down)

I understand very well the wish of the Members posing the motion. It has long been a strategic aim of the University of Ulster to increase its undergraduate student numbers at the Magee campus. The university first outlined its plans for expansion in 2009 when it indicated that it would like to expand the campus by 1,000 undergraduate places over a five-year period. The expansion would also see the creation of two institutes on the campus: the institute of health and well-being and the institute of sustainable technologies.

In 2009, my Department did not have the funding available to commit to the expansion. Estimates put the cost of the 1,000 places at around £8 million per annum. That was a recurrent cost that would need to be found each year as long as the additional places were offered by the university. The cost comprised institutional funding to the university and funding to each of the 1,000 additional students by way of maintenance grant and student loan subsidy costs. The university has not approached my Department for any capital funds in relation to the proposed expansion. However, my Department undertook to submit a bid for the increase in numbers in the 2010 comprehensive spending review. I understand that, at the same time, the university was working closely with Ilex, as an expansion of that size could potentially have a considerable impact on the local economy.

The recently published regeneration plan for Derry/Londonderry states that higher education expansion is recognised as one of the key drivers in the successful regeneration of the city. According to the plan, an increase in student numbers has:

“considerable potential to expand and generate a significant and catalytic impact on the local economy in terms of skills and jobs”.

I congratulate Ilex and all who contributed to the plan, as the vision contained in it transcends traditional academic and cultural boundaries as a proven agent for equality, inclusion, regeneration and participation. I understand that the plan has been fully adopted by the University of Ulster and now forms its vision for development of university provision in the city. The expanded university would not only provide higher education in Derry/Londonderry but encourage demand for, and supply of, higher education for local people in their own university.

The plan for expansion of the university has identified mechanisms for targeting its operation at areas of particular disadvantage. Those include the expansion of the internationally recognised Step-Up programme; the encouragement of the uptake of economically relevant study; the provision of an enhanced range of cultural and academic activities and programmes for the community of the north-west; the use of social clauses in specifications for public procurement tendering in further and higher education institutions; and the potential for business creation in the form of spin-out companies. The plan sets out how an investment of such a scale would bring the forecast benefits. I empathise with Members who now feel that those benefits will be forgone if the planned expansion does not take place.

Members know that my Department is facing an extremely challenging financial position. That is due to two factors: first, the overall budgetary settlement coming out of the latest comprehensive spending review; and, secondly, the decision not to increase tuition fees in Northern Ireland. Moreover, the situation is compounded by the rising number of unemployed people over the past few years. My Department needs to achieve savings of £150 million annually by 2014-15 to address extant pressures. Some £68 million of those savings have been targeted at the higher education sector, which is proportionate to the level of investment in the higher education sector relative to other DEL business areas.

The sector is contributing £28 million in cash savings over the next two years by way of a 12% reduction in teaching and research grant, which impacts on all higher education institutions. The balance of the £68 million was expected to be funded by an increase in the level of tuition fees. The decision to hold fees at their current level, with only inflationary increases, means that the balance of £40 million has to be found through other measures.

In approaching the issues around the future of higher education funding, I had three priorities in clear order of importance. The first was to sustain the level of funding for universities, given their central position in the future development of the economy through research and development and producing a critical mass of skilled graduates. The second was to preserve access and maximise participation in higher education for students from Northern Ireland, because going to university should not be determined by the ability to pay. The third was to seek to expand the number of university places to address the anticipated enhanced demand from Northern Ireland residents to study locally because of the decision to maintain the level of tuition fees and the differential with the level of fees that they would face in other jurisdictions.

It was always going to be difficult and challenging to address all three objectives on the basis of a fixed block grant for Northern Ireland. Given that the decision to freeze fees meant that additional sources of income had been forgone, the £40 million gap could be addressed only through shifting resources from other allocations in line with the new set of priorities as determined by the Executive.

My Department had set aside £2·5 million, £5 million and £10 million over each of the next three years to fund an expansion in student places, which we regarded as being an inescapable consequence of the decision to freeze fees. However, in the absence of evidence of the changes in student flows that will begin to become clear in 2012-13, the Executive felt that it would be more prudent to use those resources to address the £15 million, £30 million and £40 million gaps in funding over the next three years.

Dolores Kelly (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Upper Bann)

The Minister outlined some of the Executive’s priorities and how other moneys are being spent. Does he regard the money set aside in the Budget for the social investment fund as a priority for the Executive? Does his party subscribe to that expenditure?

Stephen Farry (Alliance, North Down)

That is slightly off-topic, but if the Principal Deputy Speaker will allow me the liberty, I will say that that money can make a real difference in communities. There are issues about how it is spent and its accountability, but the expenditure of that money can make a real difference across a range of issues, including those of employment and employability, which are of great interest to my Department.

I will return to the topic, which is the issue of student places. The Executive realised the potential for increased demand as the result of lower fees here and provided £1 million, £2 million and £3 million over the next three years for a more modest expansion in student places. I also have the option of returning to the Executive to make the case for additional resources as soon as the evidence of the scale of increased demand becomes clear.

At this stage, I want to stress a number of points. The available resources, which I have just set out, are incapable of meeting the terms of the motion. Had those proposing or intending to support the motion explained where they saw the additional resources being found, either from other aspects of my Department or the budgets of other Departments, that would certainly have been helpful. Indeed, some Members actually argued that my Department should have cut the budgets of the universities further or raided their reserves as a means of paying the price of freezing fees. The effect of that approach, of course, would have been to shrink the quality of the universities and to limit rather than expand the number of available places. That comment applies most to the party proposing the motion.

As much as I support the regeneration of Derry and the north-west, and the expansion of Magee in particular, I have been very careful to make clear that those outcomes will not happen on the back of the current financial arrangements. I do not want any misunderstandings or false expectations to arise around that. I will address the point raised by Mr McElduff: it is, indeed, something that my party was keen to see, and I congratulate him on getting as far as page 57 of our manifesto.

Basil McCrea (UUP, Lagan Valley)

Will the Minister give way?

Raymond McCartney (Sinn Féin, Foyle)

Will the Minister give way?

Stephen Farry (Alliance, North Down)

I will give way to both of you in a second. I share other Members’ frustration and disappointment about the fact that that aspiration is, obviously, on hold. However, my party remains committed to it.

Basil McCrea (UUP, Lagan Valley)

Minister, you said that you have £1 million, £2 million and £3 million, I think. I know that it depends on where the places are allocated, but what sort of number of currently available places are we actually talking about? To remove any doubt, will you confirm that, without additional resources from the Executive, you cannot provide any more?

Stephen Farry (Alliance, North Down)

I thank Mr McCrea for his intervention. We are discussing the allocation of those places with all higher education providers. The resources that have been made available would equate to several hundred places. At this stage, and pending the outcome of those discussions, we cannot be more precise. As Members will appreciate, the cost of different courses varies, and each different institution has its precise priorities within the broad framework of economically relevant subjects, so the number of places will be determined by where they wish to invest those resources. However, we want to be in a position to make a clear announcement about that within the next number of weeks.

Raymond McCartney (Sinn Féin, Foyle)

Will the Minister take the opportunity to say whether or not the university has presented a business case for the expansion, and, if so, did he accept it? The Chairperson of the Committee for Employment and Learning seemed in some doubt about that, so we need some certainty and clarity from you.

Stephen Farry (Alliance, North Down)

During the most recent Budget process, the Department, through my predecessor, made a bid for additional places, but it was not accepted. I am conscious that the University of Ulster made a strong case for the additional places, but I have a duty to take all of the interests of higher education providers into consideration. In doing so, I do not seek to diminish the strength of the case made by the University of Ulster, but we expect there to be demand right across the board, and I have a duty to take the interests of all providers into consideration.

It is also worth stressing that my Department can award additional places to the various providers as institutions, but not to individual campuses. Therefore, in the event of additional places being awarded to the University of Ulster, it will determine where they go. However, the vice chancellor has already publicly stated that the expansion of Magee is the priority. That is a decision for the university, not for me, although I would welcome that course of action.

There have been calls for me to allocate all the additional places to the University of Ulster and, indeed, directly to the Magee campus. However, I have to consider the needs of all the higher education providers, and the additional places will be allocated across them all. The rationale for the additional resources for university places is to manage demand across the system. That would not be achieved through concentrating the additional places in one location. As sympathetic as I am to the Magee campus’s case and to the regeneration of Derry, I cannot commit to doing something in the context of the current comprehensive spending review for which I do not have the resources. Should the Executive make the additional resources available to my Department, the issue of increased student numbers at the Magee campus in Derry can be re-examined alongside the case for additional resources for all the other higher education providers. I will have no hesitation, if the evidence is there, to go back and make that case to the Executive.

For now, my Department will continue to explore what it can achieve with the resources available to it and what that will mean for the University of Ulster. Unfortunately, as sympathetic as I am to the motion and the motives behind it, I am not in a position to support it today. However, I certainly hope that we can re-examine this issue in the future and, indeed, potentially, in the context of this Assembly, but until we have those additional resources available — and that involves having the evidence — we cannot commit to it at this stage.

Dolores Kelly (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Upper Bann)

I welcome the Minister’s presence throughout the debate. It is very disappointing that some of the political parties represented on the Committee for Employment and Learning and the Ilex regeneration project team find themselves unable to support the motion, given that they and their party colleagues supported this development in the past. It is important to put on record that the previous bid by the Committee for Employment and Learning for the additional places at the Magee campus, which the Minister and others mentioned, was led and submitted by an Ulster Unionist Minister. I am very confused today by the stance taken by the Ulster Unionist Party, given that it joined us in voting against the Budget, which has seen the downgrading of the DEL budget in particular, and, therefore, the resources that would be available to our young people.

Many commentators refer today to a lost generation of young people, who through no choice or fault of their own —

Basil McCrea (UUP, Lagan Valley)

Will the Member give way?

Dolores Kelly (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Upper Bann)

I will give way in a second. A lost generation of young people has been placed on the scrapheap. They had applied with extremely good grades. There are young people in my constituency who travelled down to Belfast Metropolitan College and, in their own words, threw themselves on the steps and on the mercy of the authorities there to try to get a place and were turned away empty-handed.

Basil McCrea (UUP, Lagan Valley)

Just to be clear, because we have been brought into the debate, we support the Magee campus and we want to see good things happening in that area. However, we voted, like you did, against the Budget. The natural consequences of the Budget decision by the Executive to freeze the fees at a certain level leaves the Minister with no option but to say that we cannot put through those places. That is the way that it is. We wish that it were different, but we will have to go back and look at the issue again.

Dolores Kelly (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Upper Bann)

Unfortunately, my confusion has not cleared in any way. It was my understanding that, although the Ulster Unionist Party had concerns about a different approach being taken on GB students compared to students from the North who want access to universities here and who will have to pay different fees, all parties were united around the freezing of tuition fees. That was something that all here welcomed.

A number of contributors to the debate focused on the reduction of the DEL budget for tuition fees without paying much attention to the ability of other Departments to identify where other priorities might lie. That shows up the weakness in the Executive, because five or six months on, although we had agreed a Budget in the absence of a Programme for Government, all we have is one that, on every page, says “officials’ version only”. In other words, it is a civil servant’s Programme for Government. That is what parties have been asked to respond to as of yesterday, which is very poor.

The contributors from the DUP referred to how money should be ring-fenced for other universities that provide extra places for STEM subjects. That is a valid point. There are other ways in which STEM subjects could be promoted. The former Deputy Chairperson of the Committee, junior Minister Bell, and I attended various meetings at which we heard those who advocate the use of STEM subjects proposing ways in which they could be encouraged in our schools. One was to have a different grade of tuition fee, or no tuition fee at all, for students who wish to study those subjects at university, in the same way as other disciplines provide bursaries to students who study subjects for which there is a particular market demand.

My party colleagues and members of Sinn Féin pointed out the glaringly obvious fact that the north-west, and the city of Derry in particular, has been discriminated against historically by the previous Stormont Administration and throughout direct rule. The figures are clearly seen in the range and the community background of the applicants to the University of Ulster at Magee and the very high unemployment that persists in Derry today.

Gregory Campbell (DUP, East Londonderry)

I thank the Member for giving way. I apologise for not being present earlier in the debate. The Member referred to different ways in which the STEM subject issue could have been dealt with. Does she accept that there are different ways in which the overall issue could have been dealt with, such as using different wording in the motion? We tried to propose an amendment, but it is not on the Marshalled List. I do not think that anyone in the House is opposed to development at Magee; the Minister’s overall problem is that there is not enough money to meet the demand. The proposal, as it is currently worded, appears to offer no such advantage to other campuses. Although we all want to support Magee, I do not think that anyone wants to do it at the expense of other campuses, particularly because of the limited amount of money that the Minister has available.

Dolores Kelly (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Upper Bann)

I appreciate very much that, for many years, the Member has been a champion for Derry or Londonderry, and — [Interruption.]

Gregory Campbell (DUP, East Londonderry)

Not bad; not bad.

Dolores Kelly (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Upper Bann)

Don’t you worry; I am very easy about interchanging those terms.

The DUP seems to have done an about-turn in relation to the concerns that it raised about the social investment fund. I accept that the Minister says that the money could do good if used correctly. However, there was an announcement last week by OFMDFM about the social investment fund, to which no other party was invited. Only a select few community groups were invited. That is my understanding of it. I understand that members of the OFMDFM Committee knew nothing about it, so is it any wonder that those of us in parties that have been excluded from those decisions are fearful of how that money will be used?

Francie Molloy (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

You probably need to come back to the motion. [Laughter.]

Dolores Kelly (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Upper Bann)

Thank you, Principal Deputy Speaker. My colleagues Mr McDevitt and Mr Eastwood referred to the legacy of the SDLP in standing up for Derry, to use a phrase that was used elsewhere, particularly in ensuring that the north-west region was properly resourced, promoted and invested in to tackle the crippling unemployment and lack of opportunity that still persists to this day in that part of the North.

I want to put one other myth to bed. I am sure that Members will acknowledge that, although the numbers of places at Magee would increase, the students who apply for those places will come from right across the North. Mr Buchanan referred to the investment that is required for colleges in his constituency, and none of us disputes that. However, I am sure that he will acknowledge that the ability of young people to live outside their own tight neighbourhood and to have the level of independence that is needed to live away from home is, in itself, an educational and, quite often, enriching experience for all.

Minister, you said that this was an Executive decision, so we are disappointed that parties were unable to support the motion. Those who are interested can look for themselves to see why it has not been supported.

Sammy Douglas (DUP, Belfast East)

Will the Member agree that I said clearly that I support the people of the north-west and the Magee campus? The main question was raised by her colleague Mr McDevitt, who talked about the elephant in the room in terms of sectarianism and about how the north-west had been let down by the Assembly. Perhaps we can ask the Minister at some stage to show —

Francie Molloy (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

Bring your remarks to a close.

Sammy Douglas (DUP, Belfast East)

— how the Committee for Employment and Learning has let the people of the north-west down.

Francie Molloy (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

Time is up.

Question put.

The Assembly divided: Ayes 27; Noes 49

AYES

Ms M Anderson, Mr Attwood, Mr Boylan, Ms Boyle, Mr D Bradley, Mr Brady, Mr W Clarke, Mr Doherty, Mr Eastwood, Mr Flanagan, Ms Gildernew, Mrs D Kelly, Ms J McCann, Mr McCartney, Mr McDevitt, Dr McDonnell, Mr McElduff, Mr McGlone, Mr McKay, Mrs McKevitt, Mr McLaughlin, Mr McMullan, Mr A Maskey, Mr P Maskey, Mr Ó hOisín, Ms Ritchie, Mr Sheehan.

Tellers for the Ayes: Mr Eastwood and Mr McDevitt.

NOES

Mr S Anderson, Mr Beggs, Mr Bell, Ms P Bradley, Mr Buchanan, Mr T Clarke, Mr Copeland, Mr Craig, Mr Dickson, Mrs Dobson, Mr Douglas, Mr Dunne, Mr Easton, Dr Farry, Mr Ford, Mr Frew, Mr Girvan, Mr Givan, Mrs Hale, Mr Hamilton, Mr Hilditch, Mr Humphrey, Mr Hussey, Mr Irwin, Mr Kennedy, Mr Kinahan, Ms Lewis, Ms Lo, Mr Lunn, Mr Lyttle, Mr McCarthy, Mr McCausland, Mr McClarty, Mr B McCrea, Mr I McCrea, Mr McGimpsey, Mr D McIlveen, Miss M McIlveen, Lord Morrow, Mr Moutray, Mr Nesbitt, Mr Newton, Mrs Overend, Mr Poots, Mr Ross, Mr Swann, Mr Weir, Mr Wells, Mr Wilson.

Tellers for the Noes: Mr Buchanan and Mr B McCrea.

The following Member voted in both Lobbies and is therefore not counted in the result: Mr Agnew.

Question accordingly negatived.

Francie Molloy (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

The Business Committee has arranged to meet during the lunchtime suspension. I propose, therefore, by leave of the Assembly, to suspend the sitting until 2.00 pm, when business will resume with Question Time.

The sitting was suspended at 12.38 pm.

On resuming (Mr Speaker in the Chair) —

Education

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

Order. We come to Question Time. Questions 5, 10 and 14 have been withdrawn and will require written answers.

Jimmy Spratt (DUP, Belfast South)

1. asked the Minister of Education for his assessment of whether a new primary school in the Village area of south Belfast is necessary to promote a fresh approach to learning and to tackling underachievement. (AQO 456/11-15)

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

The Belfast Education and Library Board is responsible for determining the appropriate primary provision in the south Belfast area to meet the needs of the pupils. I am aware that work is ongoing on the potential amalgamation of Blythefield, Fane Street and Donegall Road primary schools.

In my statement to the Assembly on 26 September, I indicated that the boards would be taking forward area planning. Central to that work will be enhancing the quality of education for all pupils through a network of viable and sustainable schools. The key aim is to ensure that schools are fit for purpose and that they will be able to deliver the full suite of Department of Education policies in an efficient and effective manner. That will ensure that children and young people have access to a curricular offer and educational experience that best meets their needs. In taking action to improve education outcomes for all our young people, I will continue to implement the school improvement policy, which sets out our overarching approach to raising standards and tackling underachievement.

Jimmy Spratt (DUP, Belfast South)

I thank the Minister for his answer. Does he accept that in order to tackle underachievement among working-class Protestant males it is vital to inspire young people to learn and achieve from the earliest point of their development? With regard to the three schools, does he not feel that a newbuild and a new start would be a good point to begin?

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

I agree with the Member that we have to instil confidence in our young people. That is achieved in a number of ways: in the family home, the community and the school. With regard to the specific amalgamation of those schools, I have to wait for the Belfast Education and Library Board to report back to me on how best it believes that we should move forward with the project. As I said in my statement of 26 September, I am keen to see the amalgamation of schools, especially small schools. It has been proven that children who attend larger, properly resourced schools with the good leadership of enthusiastic teachers and staff achieve better. That is true in the Protestant community and any other community.

One of the schemes that I intend to bring forward is a public information programme with regard to regaining the gift that is education and giving information to parents and community leaders on how they can encourage young people to achieve everything that they can.

David McNarry (UUP, Strangford)

The Member who asked the question talked about opening a new school in south Belfast, and with good reason. Will the Minister guarantee to the House today that no functioning school will be closed until the viability audit is complete?

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

I cannot guarantee that to the House. A number of development proposals are well advanced. I cannot indicate the decision that I will make on those viability audits. However, I will put it in these circumstances to the Member: may I be excused for saying that if the Health Minister was aware of an unfit or unsafe hospital, should he keep it open until he ensured that the entire estate was safe and well, or should he deal with that hospital right away? In my view —

David McNarry (UUP, Strangford)

Is there a list?

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

I have to deal with education centres and with schools. If it comes to my attention that a school is not safe, in education terms, for the young people who attend it, I will take the appropriate action ahead of the viability audit.

Conall McDevitt (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast South)

Is the Minister aware that we need leadership in the Village area of south Belfast to be able to provide the community with some certainty — a historic community that is entitled to it? Will the Minister join me and my colleagues who represent that area in coming urgently to meet those communities so that he can see the urgency of progressing to a new school build?

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

I thank the Member for his question. Yes, as with all areas, leadership is required, and that is delivered in different ways, whether through the elected representatives of the area, the community or whatever it may be. I would be keen to take the Member up on the invite to visit the Village area to look at education attainment. However, I put the marker down now: on that visit, I will not be indicating, ahead of any viability audit, whether I believe that any school should go ahead or whether any school should be closed. A programme of work is going ahead, and I have asked the boards, the Council for Catholic Maintained Schools and the other sectors to be involved in that. It would be unreasonable of me to interfere in that process ahead of its reporting.

Patsy McGlone (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Mid Ulster)

2. asked the Minister of Education to outline his position on changing the statutory school starting age. (AQO 457/11-15)

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

A key aspect of the draft 0-6 early years strategy is the transition from preschool to the foundation stage of the revised curriculum, which aims to ensure that children are introduced to education in a way and at a pace that takes account of their age and level of maturity. The draft strategy acknowledges the flexibility provided by the foundation stage of the curriculum in providing a range of educational approaches to meet the needs of individual children, who learn at a different pace and in differing ways.

Therefore, although I have no plans to make a change to the school starting age, I will study the comments made and issues raised as part of the early years strategy consultation, including any implications that those might have for the school starting age.

Patsy McGlone (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Mid Ulster)

Go raibh maith agat, a Aire, as ucht an fhreagra sin. I thank the Minister for his response. Further to the study that he referred to, is he prepared to draw on the well of experience at international level, particularly from the EU, on the matter?

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

Yes. I think it is important that we are not insular in many aspects of our life and that we look beyond these shores for inspiration on education and other matters. Substantial studies have been carried out on the school starting age, and we have one of the lowest school starting ages in western Europe. However, as I said, the early years strategy and the consultation responses are still being analysed, and I will take further views on the matter when those strategies have been analysed.

It is not as simple as changing the school starting age. A lot of research work would have to be completed, and the financial implications and those for teacher training and the schools estate, etc, of revising the school starting age, would also have to be considered.

Sean Lynch (Sinn Féin, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. Does the Minister agree that children here enter the formal education process at too young an age? What steps have been taken to address that issue?

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

Some research indicates that we are starting our children in formal education too young. Through the foundation stage in our primary schools, we have tried to ensure that the education system meets the needs of the individual child, rather than our children meeting the needs of the education system. Therefore, the foundation course in education is better than what we once had in place. As I said to Mr McGlone, we await the outcome of the early years review and the consultation responses to that. Following that, we will decide on what action, if any, is required on the school starting age. We have to ensure that we are not in danger of sending our children into the preschool programme even younger than we are currently, whether that be in the community and voluntary sector or the nursery school sector. The preschool setting is about encouraging learning through socialisation and play, and we do not want that to become overly formalised to such a degree that we are starting children at the age of three instead of what we do currently.

Sandra Overend (UUP, Mid Ulster)

I thank the Minister for his answers so far. Is the Minister open to hearing individual cases from parents as to what age their child should start school, as they will be in the best position to know the ability and readiness to begin a formal education?

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

Current legislation does not allow for any leeway on that. A number of parents have been in contact with the Department to raise that issue and to state that they wish to start their child at school at an appropriate age. However, unless legislation is brought before the Assembly to change the school starting age or to give more parental choice in that matter, circumstances will remain the same. I do not wish to be repetitive, but I think it is best that we await the outcome of the early years review. Following that, we will take decisions on a number of matters that have been raised in relation to that question.

Sydney Anderson (DUP, Upper Bann)

What consideration has the Minister given to the potential impact on nursery school provision if the school starting age were to rise?

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

That would certainly have to be taken into consideration. We would have to replan or redraw our schools estate to meet the starting age. It would impact on teacher training and on how we fund our schools estate. It is a complicated equation, although one that, in my view, could be overcome over a period of years. It should, perhaps, be introduced over a period of years, rather than as a blunt instrument. All those aspects, whether they relate to nursery school or primary school provision, would have to be taken into the equation, if such a decision were reached.

Mike Nesbitt (UUP, Strangford)

3. asked the Minister of Education to explain the significant differences in the schools maintenance budgets across the education and library board areas. (AQO 458/11-15)

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

As part of their landlord responsibilities, education and library boards are responsible for undertaking maintenance work for the controlled and maintained schools estates. They are also responsible for the maintenance of other non-school premises.

Although my Department determines the overall central budget allocations for the boards, it is for each individual board to determine, along with other services to be provided, how much funding they attribute to their maintenance budget. The budget for maintenance will, therefore, be considered in the context of demands from competing priorities, including front line services and the extent to which obligations in meeting health and safety requirements are reached in conjunction with other planned maintenance work programmes.

My Department continues to provide as much additional support to meet maintenance needs as is financially possible. This year, we have allocated a further £5 million to the boards on top of the budgets that they have set in their resource allocation plans.

Mike Nesbitt (UUP, Strangford)

I thank the Minister. Are schools with major maintenance backlogs now at risk under the criteria that the Minister announced in his recent statement? That statement has, of course, given rise to the suspicion that there is a closure hit list.

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

No; schools with a major maintenance backlog will not be at a disadvantage. Viability audits will be based on the quality of education that children obtain in schools. That is not always attributed to the quality of the school buildings, although there can be a correlation between them.

In response to your second point, there is no hit list. Research and a detailed programme of work will be undertaken to look at the viability of our schools estate and to ensure that the schools in which our children are taught are educationally safe. The schools maintenance programme is designed to ensure that the buildings and fabric of the schools estate are safe. I accept that there is a major backlog in the system, but, with competing priorities in the education budget and, indeed, across the Executive Budget, we have to allocate funds as fairly as we can.

Gregory Campbell (DUP, East Londonderry)

Like all Ministers, the Minister has a finite budget. The Minister has been in his role for a few months, and he will have had the schools estate before him and will have seen the extent to which some schools are severely in need of maintenance. Given the multiplicity of roles that he currently holds, what effort has the Minister made to get out and identify those schools and see them for himself?

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

As the Member said, I have been in post for around five months. I have visited a number of schools, both new and old, and I have inspected, at close quarters, some of the poor conditions that pupils, staff and teachers are working in. I am acutely aware of that matter. Even before coming into post, I was aware of the standards of some of the schools in our schools estate, because, like the Member, I am a constituency MLA.

We have a maintenance backlog of £311 million, and, to the best of our ability, we have put money into the education and library boards so that they can deal with maintenance. We put in a further £5 million this year, and, as the spending rounds come round, I will examine whether it is feasible to bid for further maintenance funds or whether there are other priorities at that stage. However, I am acutely aware of the state of our schools estate.

One of the reasons why I made my statement last week was to ensure that we do not spread our financial resources so thinly that we are being completely ineffective. I want to minimise our schools estate to ensure that each school we have is viable into the future. The money that we have can then be invested in the upkeep of those schools and in the education of the children in them.

Michaela Boyle (Sinn Féin, West Tyrone)

Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. Does the Minister have any plans to allow each school to utilise its maintenance budget more strategically?

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

An element of each school budget is set aside for maintenance. However, that is more for the wear and tear of schools, and it pays for things such as painting and interior decoration, rather than any structural defects. School governors decide how that part of the budget is spent.

There is a valid argument for having a more strategic use of our minor works programme and an examination of how we spend that considerable amount of resource going into the future. I am keeping all those things under close observation, and I will make further statements and responses to the Assembly in due course about how I believe the minor works programme should be used.

Karen McKevitt (Social Democratic and Labour Party, South Down)

How much has been invested in school maintenance?

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

I do not have in front of me the exact figure for this year or for the last number of years, but I will ensure that departmental officials forward that information to the Member.

Alex Easton (DUP, North Down)

4. asked the Minister of Education what plans he has to ensure that there are enough year 1 places in north Down schools to meet demand for the 2012-13 school year. (AQO 459/11-15)

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

Current primary-school provision in north Down will provide a total of 1,167 year 1 places for the 2012-13 academic year. Birth statistics for children in North Down indicate that there is a cohort of 933 children eligible to begin school in year 1 in September 2012. There is no question of there not being enough places; rather, there is the clear prospect of a surplus of 234 places, which is a 20% surplus. That will be similar to this year, in which 1,167 places are occupied by 952 children, leaving 215 places vacant, which is an 18·5% surplus.

Of course, I am aware that, despite the fact that there were more than enough places in north Down for 2011-12, there was still disappointment from some parents at the outcome of their application for a primary-school place. The issue appears to be that, alongside high levels of vacancy, there may be insufficient availability in the provision that parents want. My statement of 26 September was, in part, about our need to address that twin issue: we have surplus where we have no demand, and where we have demand we have limited capacity.

Alex Easton (DUP, North Down)

I thank the Minister for his answer. Parents in Groomsport had to endure a wait until the last minute for their children to get a year 1 place, and, although three local primary schools were right next door to them, they were more or less forced by the Department to send their children to the far side of Bangor, because the spaces were there. Will the Minister give me a guarantee that that fiasco will not happen again next year?

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

I am not familiar with the detail of the particular matter that the Member raises. However, as shown by the figures that I have cited, there is a 20% surplus of primary 1 places in Bangor. How those are distributed may be open to question: are they in the right locations? That is something we can look at. There is parental choice in our system, but there is no guarantee that any parent will get a child into the place of their first or second preference, or even into that of their third preference in areas of high demand. That is how the system works. However, we can look at the distribution of places in the Bangor area. As I said in my statement of about a week ago, one of the reasons for area planning is to ensure that we have schools in the right places and that popular schools that are in high demand are allowed to expand within the capacity of budget and other factors.

Steven Agnew (Green, North Down)

I wish to follow up on my North Down colleague’s point about the children in Groomsport. For the Minister’s information, it was a situation where two or three families could not be accommodated at their nearest school. I would be happy for the Minister to come to North Down and take the bus journey that those kids would have had to take to get to the schools that were recommended to them. Would the Minister’s Department be prepared to apply common sense in future when a small number of children will be greatly inconvenienced and to be flexible about the limit of the number of places at local schools?

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

I encourage common sense, whether in my Department or the Assembly. The first port of call for this matter is the relevant education and library board. It is the provider. No doubt it has been involved and has carried out the necessary groundwork in regard to this matter. As I said, it is clear that across primary and post-primary sectors we may not have our schools located in the right areas. That is due to population shifts, etc. However, with regard to the Bangor area, it is clear that we have 20% of places vacant in P1. That is a matter that we must take into consideration in planning for the future.

Dominic Bradley (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Newry and Armagh)

Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as an fhreagra a thug sé. Tá ceist agam air faoi áiteacha in earnáil na réamhscolaíochta.

Earlier this year, we had a crisis in the provision of preschool places. Can the Minister tell us what action he is taking to ensure that there will be no recurrence of that situation in the coming year?

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

I do not accept that there was a crisis. We placed nearly 25,000 children in preschool places; more than 90% got into their first or second preference, so it was certainly not a crisis. Some parents were disappointed and were rightly frustrated, but, as I said during a debate on the matter, the tens of thousands of satisfied parents do not call into your constituency clinic. The parents who are dissatisfied call into your constituency clinic, but there is a duty on us to look at the entire picture.

I indicated during that debate that I would have a report prepared and brought to the Assembly on how I believe matters will be brought forward. That report is currently with me. I am taking time to examine it in detail, and, when I am satisfied that it meets the needs on the way forward, I will deliver it to the Assembly.

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

Questions 5 and 6 have been withdrawn.

Basil McCrea (UUP, Lagan Valley)

7. asked the Minister of Education what is the total expenditure on the Education and Skills Authority since its establishment. (AQO 462/11-15)

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

The Education and Skills Authority (ESA) has not yet been established, so it has not incurred any expenditure. The costs up to 31 August 2011 for the preparation for the authority amounted to £12·1 million. A considerable amount of work has been completed in preparation for the implementation of the Education and Skills Authority, including the design and implementation of common ICT platforms across the education sector; the centralisation of software licensing; the creation of a single finance system with the ability to provide access to a range of important management information across the education sector; the development of service delivery models for major functions; and the broad design of an organisation structure.

Additionally, work to establish common terms and conditions of employment and various other HR issues is well advanced, in liaison with the relevant trade unions.

Basil McCrea (UUP, Lagan Valley)

I keep hearing that we are making progress and that a decision will be announced shortly. Can the Minister tell us when he expects the announcement to be made that the ESA will be set up? When that happens, what does he anticipate the total cost will have been to set up that body?

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

First, I am conscious that the costs are rising in regard to a body that we have yet to establish. I am minded of that, and that is keeping me focused on the time frame within which we can allow discussions to continue on the establishment of the ESA. The Education and Skills Authority is in our Programme for Government, and I hope that a future Programme for Government will retain a focus on it. That is why the spend was made.

The Member will be aware that legislation was at an advanced stage when it was stalled; that was part of the reason why spend was made around that matter. However, I have never said that we will make a decision shortly; what I have said is that we will be required to make a decision. It is only fair to staff in the education sector to allow a focus and vision to return to the drive towards education. Therefore, I am acutely aware of all the pressures bearing down in regard to the ESA project, and I am keeping them in mind in respect of the time frame within which we are working to reach agreement.

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

Before I call Alban Maginness for a supplementary question, I have to say to Members that they need to rise continually in their place. Rising once or twice will not get you in.

Alban Maginness (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast North)

Thank you, Mr Speaker. I thank the Minister for his answer. In order to establish the ESA, it is necessary to encourage and bring about political consensus. When will the Minister convene a meeting of all the political parties to thrash out this issue and to establish the ESA?

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

Mr Speaker, I did not realise that I was dealing with such a shy group of individuals in this Assembly or with people who were afraid to knock on my door. My door is open to any party or individual MLA to discuss any matter with me. I have not refused talks about the ESA. Indeed, during all-party talks in the run-up to the establishment of the current Executive, it was agreed that parties should come forward with papers on the establishment of the ESA. Following public responses to the Programme for Government, I am aware that some parties have indicated their views on the ESA. However, I am still awaiting papers and documents from other parties, even dating back to May before the Executive was re-established.

Kieran McCarthy (Alliance, Strangford)

8. asked the Minister of Education for an update on the development of the Education and Skills Authority. (AQO 463/11-15)

Karen McKevitt (Social Democratic and Labour Party, South Down)

11. asked the Minister of Education what discussions he has had with relevant bodies about the introduction of a new Bill on the Education and Skills Authority. (AQO 466/11-15)

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

With your permission, Mr Speaker, I shall answer questions 8 and 11 together.

I remain committed to the establishment of the Education and Skills Authority, for which the case remains as strong as ever. I raised the need for reform with political parties, education and library boards, the Council for Catholic Maintained Schools and stakeholders, including the Commission for Catholic Education, the Transferor Representatives’ Council, trade unions and CnaG. Political agreement is required to allow me to bring proposals to the Executive as soon as possible.

Kieran McCarthy (Alliance, Strangford)

I thank the Minister for his response. Is he disappointed about the time that it has taken the Assembly to get to where it is on the issue? The time for talking has long since passed. The community wants and needs action immediately.

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

At the heart of it, there is frustration as we try to move forward with the review of public administration in education. In my view, that should have been resolved a long time ago. Since the elections and the summer recess, there has been political agreement on a number of matters that were sticking points in the political system. Those matters have been moved on, and we are now moving towards the Programme for Government. If there is political goodwill, I believe that we can quickly resolve the outstanding issues relating to the ESA.

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

I call Karen McKevitt to ask a supplementary question.

Karen McKevitt (Social Democratic and Labour Party, South Down)

Sorry?

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

Your question was grouped with question 8.

Karen McKevitt (Social Democratic and Labour Party, South Down)

Sorry; I am not ready.

Ian McCrea (DUP, Mid Ulster)

The Minister referred to the fact that decisions that were held up in the Executive have been moved on in the political arena. Can he confirm that he had discussions with my colleague, the Chairman of the Education Committee, about the issue to ensure that any problems that exist can be overcome and resolved?

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

I can confirm to the House that I had discussions with Mr Storey. I am more than willing to have discussions with any other Member of the House who is interested in the matter.

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

Is the Member all right?

Karen McKevitt (Social Democratic and Labour Party, South Down)

Yes. The Minister answered my question in his answer to Mr Maginness.

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

OK. Thank you.

Daithí McKay (Sinn Féin, North Antrim)

9. asked the Minister of Education for an update on his recent meeting with the Dublin Government’s Minister for Education and Skills. (AQO 464/11-15)

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

I met the Minister for Education and Skills at the North/South Ministerial Council in education sectoral format on 21 September. The meeting provided a valuable opportunity to review progress and to consider the scope for strengthening deepening North/South co-operation for the benefit of all our children and young people. I intend to make a statement to the Assembly on 10 October that will cover the outcome of the meeting in detail.

Daithí McKay (Sinn Féin, North Antrim)

I thank the Minister for his answer. Will he update the House on the North/South Ministerial Council’s discussions about the IBEC/CBI study, which revealed the extent of the barriers facing young people across third-level education on a North/South basis?

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

Although the matter does not necessarily fall under my remit, Minister Quinn actually took the opportunity to raise it with me at the last sectoral meeting. He, too, was of the view that, given some students’ lack of ability to incorporate student fees into their thinking, there was an opportunity for them to travel to universities in the South. I asked him to raise that matter directly with my counterpart Minister Farry, and he undertook to take up that offer.

Environment

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

Questions 6 and 7 have been withdrawn and require written answers.

Anna Lo (Alliance, Belfast South)

1. asked the Minister of the Environment what new primary legislation his Department intends to introduce in this Assembly mandate. (AQO 471/11-15)

Alex Attwood (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast West)

I thank Ms Lo, as a private Member and in her capacity as Chair of the Committee, for asking that question. In my view, we need to be judged and to judge ourselves, even more than was the case in the last mandate, against the legislation that we get over the line quickly and throughout the next four years.

I confirm that I am currently minded, subject to Executive agreement, to bring before the Assembly at least eight Bills. Those cover the full range of departmental functions, including national parks, marine management and road traffic legislation, about which there was publicity last week. A second piece of road traffic legislation would introduce the mutual recognition of penalty points on the island of Ireland. A planning reform Bill would potentially devolve planning functions to local councils in advance of the review of public administration (RPA). Given that Ireland is a green island, a climate Bill would demonstrate that the Assembly embraces fully the green agenda and wants to include in legislation challenging emissions targets beyond those to which it is already committed. I hope that that gives Ms Lo some indication of the scale of my and the Department’s ambitions.

Anna Lo (Alliance, Belfast South)

I thank the Minister for his answer. I very much welcome that list of legislation. Will he assure the House that all of the proposed legislation will come forward in a timely manner, unlike the rush of legislation towards the end of the previous mandate?

Alex Attwood (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast West)

That is a timely and worthwhile advance. As consultation on the national parks legislation is about to end, I expect the Executive to endorse an approach to that within the next four or five months. A marine Bill has already been tabled for Executive consideration. Although not tabled at meetings, it has been circulated to Executive colleagues since June. I am minded, and have instructed the Office of the Legislative Counsel (OLC), to draft additional clauses to enhance that Bill through the establishment of a marine management organisation. Members will know from last week that I want to table a road traffic Bill at the Executive within the next four or five months. Within a short time, I want to table a planning reform Bill, which has been substantially drafted. Therefore, I give an assurance that, unlike in the previous mandate, the Committee and the Executive should anticipate that, during the next few months, three or four pieces of substantive legislation that have been or are being drafted will be before them for their attention.

Cathal Boylan (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. Will the Minister outline when he will bring forward proposals for a reorganisation Bill, so that the Assembly can advance the government structures needed fully to implement the Planning Act 2011 during the current mandate?

Alex Attwood (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast West)

I thank the Member for his question, which he would not give to me as we came through the door. Members are aware of the RPA situation. I want to create certainty, not doubts, about the reorganisation of local government. That is why I am minded to bring forward a planning reform Bill to devolve some planning functions to local councils in advance of the RPA. That would enable councils to build up their capacity for dealing with that essential political and operational responsibility before 2014 or 2015.

Through the improvement, collaboration and efficiency (ICE) programme, I am working with councils and their management in an effort to bear down on council expenditure to reduce costs, improve services and achieve better value for money. I am not behind the door in taking forward local government reform in the here and now, unlike previously, when people sat on their hands and did not apply their minds to it.

As Members know, the First Minister and deputy First Minister have reached an understanding. Although I have not seen that understanding, I believe that it has been reduced to writing, and I look forward to its receipt. I will consider seriously and diligently what they have to say about the RPA. However, I am the Minister. I will take on board all the best advice, including that from the First Minister and deputy First Minister, on taking that forward. Ultimately, my Executive colleagues and I should be judged on making the right and best choices for ratepayers across the range of functions that councils might enjoy in the future.

Roy Beggs (UUP, East Antrim)

Does the Minister feel aggrieved that he, the Minister responsible for local government, does not know, just like the rest of us, what has supposedly been agreed in the Programme for Government? Does he agree that that does not show collective governance?

Alex Attwood (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast West)

I am too thick-skinned to be aggrieved by the behaviour of any party, Minister or politician. However, the community might feel aggrieved if we do not step back, even for a moment, and make a judgement on whether we are going forward on the basis of the best model, given that we have a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to get this right.

I say to all my ministerial colleagues: let us decide this matter very quickly, but let us decide it so that we do not squander the once-in-a-lifetime opportunity, we get the number of councils right, we get the transferred functions right, and we have a qualitative change in local councils and local government. That is how we should all judge ourselves. We should not delay, but we should ensure that we get it right.

Steven Agnew (Green, North Down)

I welcome the Minister’s ambition about the legislation that he hopes to have enacted. Does he agree that Northern Ireland playing its part in tackling climate change is a key issue, even in a time of economic scarcity? In fact, the Stern review states that it is even more important in a time of economic scarcity. Will he put that forward in his proposals for the Programme for Government?

Alex Attwood (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast West)

I agree with the sentiment behind the question. The pace and scale of climate change is deeper and quicker than was imagined, even a short time ago. Whatever the circumstances that brought that about — some in the House would dispute those circumstances — that is the harsh, brutal, bitter reality. The pace, speed and scope of climate change are greater now than was anticipated, even four or five years ago. I understand that scientific evidence will confirm that assertion in the very near future.

If we, as a small jurisdiction with 1·7 million people and the power that we have in our capacity, do not embrace and lead the green, climate and environmental agendas on these islands, we will be letting down the citizens of this part of these islands. That should be the touchstone against which we all judge ourselves. Are we going to put challenging emission targets on the face of a climate Bill? Are we going to put much more challenging recycling targets into policy? Are we going to scope out, with the Agriculture Minister and all relevant Ministers, a marine management organisation that deals with the proliferation of marine responsibilities around our coastal waters in a cohesive and coherent way? Are we ready to face up to those challenges, or are we going to drop the ball again?

Kieran McCarthy (Alliance, Strangford)

2. asked the Minister of the Environment for his assessment of his Department’s plans for the protection of areas of special scientific interest. (AQO 472/11-15)

Alex Attwood (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast West)

I thank the Member for the question, given his constituency interest in the matter. What are we talking about when we talk about areas of special scientific interest (ASSIs)? We are talking about the Pettigo plateau; the fringe areas of Lough Neagh and Upper Lough Erne; the mudflats in Strangford; our peatlands; the Mournes; and 330 other ASSIs. The fact that we in the North of Ireland have so many ASSIs is an expression of how wonderful and dramatic our scientific areas of natural heritage and appeal are.

Although we should not over-manage those ASSIs, and scientists should not have a veto over how we progress various matters, we should be careful about how we manage them. That is why a stocktake of each and every ASSI is carried out annually. Every six years, a scientific survey is conducted to find out whether further damage has been caused.

Kieran McCarthy (Alliance, Strangford)

I thank the Minister for his detailed and knowledgeable information about ASSIs. He may or may not be aware that, when the ASSI designation was first introduced, there was enormous opposition from landowners and farmers. I recall the situation at Strangford Lough, where a notice was put up by the farmers to keep officials away from their land. Given those concerns, is the Minister convinced that he and his Department are doing all they can to preserve not only the ASSIs but their environs? Will everybody be treated equally, so there will be no disadvantage for anyone in relation to developments, etc, adjacent to ASSIs?

Alex Attwood (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast West)

I thank the Member for his question. I concur that, looking beyond this particular matter, part of the character of our society has been resistance to change. However, as we know from many other aspects of political life and community experience, better judgement eventually prevails, often at too high a price and too high a cost. I think that there is now a much more settled view on the importance of scientific designations of environmental quality.

In answer to the latter part of the question, I do not believe that scientific advice should, in all circumstances, prevail. Sometimes, scientific advice is too exacting, even, at times, to the point of being precious when it comes to a planning application. It might be the case that I will have to make a judgement that, whatever the scientific advice might be and while listening to best advice and taking it fully on board, nonetheless there are wider considerations that would see a planning application here or there be permitted.

The question is very valid. We need to be vigilant in managing ASSIs. As I indicated, we do that on a rolling basis every six years and on an annual basis in a more limited way. There will be a new strategy coming forward, to ensure that the other Departments measure up in relation to their responsibilities within scientific zones of special character, and I think that they can. My colleagues in the Department of Agriculture and Rural Development (DARD) have shown that its countryside management schemes, which are relevant to areas of scientific interest, have demonstrably and positively helped the management of those areas, given the history. Let us be honest about it: there have been some tensions between the agricultural community and the environmental lobby. It seems to me that you can resolve that. Countryside management schemes suggest that. I think that that is the way forward.

Peter Weir (DUP, North Down)

The Minister mentioned that there are about 330 ASSIs across Northern Ireland and that there is a need to employ better judgement. Does the Minister agree that a one-size-fits-all attitude is not always helpful? There may be occasions when we are a bit too rigid in what we look at and other occasions when there needs to be a bit more flexibility around what additional protections can be put in place for some ASSIs.

Alex Attwood (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast West)

I agree with one point that the Member made: there is a sense, whether it is fully backed by evidence or not, that there is some rigidity when it comes to, for example, the advice of scientific officers in the Environment Agency who deal with these sorts of issues and their advice to the Planning Service when it comes to a planning application within or adjacent to one of these areas. I have drilled down on that matter and have told Planning Service officials that they have to make the calls. They hear the advice from all the relevant agencies, all the consultees and the public, and, ultimately, they must make the call about what is the balanced view to take, given all the potentially competing advice that they might get. In that way, I agree.

We must not overload government and the community with so many designations that we get to the point where there is a muddle or confusion. However, one point that I cannot agree with relates to the fact that, when you analyse the ASSIs, you find that over 30% of them are not deemed to be healthy. Looking in particular at habitat ASSIs, over 55% of them are deemed not to be healthy. Therefore, although we have taken on board all the best advice from Europe and have given designations to areas of special character, including ASSIs, behind the scale and success of that, there are worrying trends, especially on the habitat side.

All that feeds into the wider narrative about Northern Ireland and what we offer when it comes to quality of life for our own citizens and the quality of tourist experience and spend going forward. I agree that we need to be balanced, but we also need to be vigilant where there are areas of risk.

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

Order. I remind the Minister of the two-minute rule.

Mitchel McLaughlin (Sinn Féin, South Antrim)

Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. I thank the Minister for his answers so far, particularly that carefully nuanced presentation of the balance of issues that he has to consider. He mentioned Lough Neagh. Does he agree that the proposal to build a massive incinerator on the shores of Lough Neagh is a totally incompatible proposition?

Alex Attwood (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast West)

I hope that my colleagues in the SDLP heard somebody from a different party say that he thought that I was being “carefully nuanced” in my political narrative. I could not agree more wholeheartedly with the Member. Thank you very much. I hear silence behind me. [Laughter.] You will note that it is Conall McDevitt who is laughing the most.