Northern Ireland Assembly, 18 October 2011

407 contributions from 59 members. The official report.

Private Members’ Business

John Dallat (Social Democratic and Labour Party, East Londonderry)

The Business Committee has agreed to allow up to one hour and 30 minutes for the debate. The proposer will have 10 minutes to propose the motion and 10 minutes to make a winding-up speech. One amendment has been selected and published on the Marshalled List. The proposer of the amendment will have 10 minutes to propose and five minutes to make a winding-up speech. All other Members who wish to speak will have five minutes.

David McIlveen (DUP, North Antrim)

I beg to move

That this Assembly recognises the severe anxiety that antisocial behaviour is causing people living in our cities, towns and villages; and calls on the Minister of Justice to increase police powers to deal with the problem.

I am grateful for the opportunity to bring the motion to the House. Before I get into the proposal proper, it is probably fair to accept that quite a bit of talk today will be about young people. The vast majority of young people in our society are to be highly commended. Today we have seen an example of a very fine young man, and I want to take this opportunity to welcome the safe return of Sergeant Gilad Shalit to his home. I met his family a number of months ago, and they have fought a very dignified campaign for his release. So, I want to put that on record and welcome his safe return to his family.

Before I begin to properly address antisocial behaviour, I will make one thing clear: this is in no way a case of raining down on the young people of our society. It is not an attempt to once again blame the so-called scourge of our youth for the problems of society. I am on record in the Assembly, as are many Members, as promoting young people and skills. One of my real passions is ensuring that young people are well provided for and have the best possible opportunities in the future. Young people are the future of Northern Ireland, and I will continue to advocate for their rights on all fronts.

That said, most of the antisocial behaviour in our cities, towns and villages centres on young people under the age of 21. I also acknowledge that it is a tiny minority of young people who are involved in such behaviour. The vast majority are an absolute credit to our country. In my constituency alone, young people secure places in Cambridge University and Oxford University, and just last week I discovered that a Ballymoney school has qualified for the international mock trial championships in New York. However, a tiny minority is engaging in antisocial behaviour and is holding some of our cities, towns and villages to ransom.

The issue is best illustrated using an example from my constituency. There is an 83-year-old lady in my constituency who lives alone and has spent her life working hard, adding to her local community and providing for her family. In her old age, she just wants to live a quiet life in her home village. Night after night, however, that lady is subjected to intimidation. She watches as a small group of loitering teenagers becomes a large group of youths congregated outside her home. Although the group starts off small, she becomes increasingly intimidated as she sees the numbers swell. Whenever that lady phones the police, they tell her that, as no crime has been committed, there is nothing that they can do. The lady watches and waits, and soon the group starts to throw stones at her door and the crowd begins to get louder and more agitated. To the group, that may seem like harmless fun, but for this lady, whose name is Mary, it is absolute terror. Alone and afraid in the house, she phones the police again, because the group has started to throw stones at her door. The police come out to her house, but, by the time that they arrive, the group, bored of its prey, has moved on. In its wake, it has left a harassed and terrified 83-year-old woman alone with nothing but the chips in her front door and a large hole in her hedge. That is completely unacceptable. The time that is allowed to elapse between a group of kids gathering outside a vulnerable old lady’s door and the actual execution of an offence must be addressed.

The time has come to stop making excuses for young people who engage in that type of behaviour. I am, quite frankly, fed up with the hug-a-hoody approach, whereby we have to find 20 different excuses not to crack down on such behaviour rather than just accept that there is something that we can do. There are hundreds, even thousands, of people like Mary across the Province. Families, single people, couples and many other members of our communities are affected by antisocial behaviour. It is not simply an issue in our big cities. It is a problem in our towns, villages and hamlets, and, that being the case, the response must be equally far-reaching. At some point, we need to stop saying that police resources are stretched, that parents must take action, that we need to educate young people about this better or that we need to provide more sports pitches and community centres for the younger generation. I acknowledge that, in the long term, we need to improve in all those areas, but right now there are people in my constituency and others who are affected by this menacing minority. Increasing police powers of dispersal and getting the message to the police on the ground that they can use those powers is something that we can change immediately. Too often, I hear talk about holistic approaches and about providing for disaffected youth. Not often enough do we simply take action and do something to help those who are affected by antisocial behaviour.

Many of the young people involved need to learn to respect the police again. One of the ways to ensure that that happens is to provide the police with the relevant powers and to make sure that they then use them. I do not know about other Members, but it is not bored teenagers who come into my constituency office every day: it is families, couples, disabled people and pensioners, and I find that, far too often, they are coming in to complain about antisocial behaviour and, in many cases, are genuinely living in fear.

In England and Wales, the Anti-social Behaviour Act 2003 provides for the dispersal of groups and even grants the police the power to bring under-16s back to their home. That power is granted if:

“any members of the public have been intimidated, harassed, alarmed or distressed as a result of the presence or behaviour of groups of two or more persons in public places”.

I call on the Minister of Justice to increase police powers so that they are in line with those in England and Wales or, if similar powers exist, to ensure that the police know that, so that such young people never get the opportunity to intimidate anyone. The intention behind the provision is not to use it in isolation but to provide a short-term solution to be used in conjunction with other measures. Despite my earlier protestations that we make too many excuses for these people, I recognise that that will have to be done. However, we can talk about the long-term approach to tackling crime at another time. The work of community groups, sports clubs and other organisations has been a lifeline to many young people who otherwise would have led a very different life. However, the issue that I am discussing here and now is antisocial behaviour. Although those groups could help to combat such behaviour, I am conscious that an overwhelming majority of young people do not feel the need to harass pensioners.

Alban Maginness (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast North)

Does the Member not agree that the motion that has been presented to the House by his good self is narrowly focused on increasing policing powers? He adverted to the wider context in which antisocial behaviour takes place, but his approach is from a law and order point of view initially, and he then hopes to deal with the wider social issues. Is that not the wrong approach? Should it not be at least a joined-up effort using policing powers and other resources in the community to deal with what is essentially a social problem?

David McIlveen (DUP, North Antrim)

I thank the Member for his intervention. As I may have already said — perhaps I will say it again — I have no issue with what he is bringing forward. I respect his view entirely, but the problem with a lot of these suggestions is that they take time. This is an urgent issue. I do not think that I speak in isolation as one representative with one constituent being terrified in their home. This is a wide-reaching problem. I accept that there has to be a more far-reaching approach, but we have a problem now that needs to be dealt with urgently. If we do not give the lead to the police and the forces of law and order, time will pass, and more people — more pensioners in particular — will, unfortunately, find themselves in a distressing position such as the one in which the lady whom I mentioned finds herself.

There needs to be a measured approach. I accept that some people may consider antisocial behaviour to be a relatively benign offence. I in no way advocate large police Land Rovers pulling up, lifting 14- and 15-year-old youths, throwing them into a Land Rover and locking them away. That is not what we suggest for one minute, but —

Stewart Dickson (Alliance, East Antrim)

Will the Member give way?

David McIlveen (DUP, North Antrim)

Yes.

Stewart Dickson (Alliance, East Antrim)

Is that not exactly what you are asking for in the motion? More police powers would mean exactly what you have described: Land Rovers scooping up young people. There is adequate legislation on the books, and the police are doing a good job. A progressive approach will always be needed for any issue of antisocial behaviour.

John Dallat (Social Democratic and Labour Party, East Londonderry)

The Member will have to bring his remarks to a close. In fact, time is up.

David McIlveen (DUP, North Antrim)

OK. I thank the Member for his intervention. If the police powers are already in place — I have already addressed this — let us get the message to the police that they have the powers. His Minister is equally culpable for that.

John Dallat (Social Democratic and Labour Party, East Londonderry)

Your time is up.

Roy Beggs (UUP, East Antrim)

I beg to move the following amendment: Leave out all after “villages;” and insert:

“and calls on the Minister of Justice to delegate greater resources and responsibility to the community safety partnerships and the district policing partnerships to tackle the issue by working with local government and the community and voluntary sector to bring about local solutions; and further calls for a review of police powers to deal with this problem.”

I declare an interest: I am a former councillor and member of a district policing partnership and community safety partnership, both for many years. It is with that knowledge and background that I come to the debate. I am also involved in the voluntary and community sector: I am the voluntary director of the Carrickfergus community drugs and alcohol advisory group and a member of Horizon Sure Start.

The motion calls for increased powers to deal with antisocial behaviour. It implies that more powers for the police are the only thing that is needed. What exactly is antisocial behaviour? According to the Directgov website, it can be a wide range of things, including rowdy behaviour; noisy behaviour; night-time noise that affects people’s ability to sleep; threatening behaviour; drunken, yobbish behaviour; vandalism; litter; drinking; fireworks late at night; and abandoning cars in the street. A wide range of issues comes under that heading, and they can have a huge personal impact. Mention was made earlier of one vulnerable elderly resident. I am sure that others suffer from such activities as well. They can also have a huge community impact. The Research and Information Service briefed us that Belfast City Council has had to employ park rangers because it reckons that its parks suffer between £500,000 and £1 million of damage each year. I am not taking the subject lightly, but I want to ensure that we adopt policies that deliver —

William Humphrey (DUP, Belfast North)

Will the Member give way?

Roy Beggs (UUP, East Antrim)

I have only started, and I want the opportunity to deal with the issue.

It is recognised widely from surveys that the community is concerned about the issue. I am thinking of a recent survey by the Northern Ireland Policing Board. Thankfully, we appear to be going in the right direction, and, according to information on its website, the number of reports of antisocial behaviour has reduced by 17% this year compared with the previous period. In my constituency, there has been a reduction of 26% in Carrickfergus and Newtownabbey and of some 17% in Larne. Therefore, something is going in the right direction for once.

The view that more police powers are required is simplistic. A wide range of actions is required if we are to get the long-term behavioural improvements that ultimately will benefit the entire community. Therefore, it is important that we look at the range of changes that are necessary. More police powers are only one aspect that should be looked at carefully, which is why our amendment refers to a review of police powers. Such a review would consider exactly what powers are needed and maximise what we have at present. If increasing police powers is necessary and if there is clear evidence of resulting benefits, it should be considered seriously.

We should look at prevention and intervention. Why was a detached youth worker not dispatched to the area where antisocial behaviour occurs regularly? The police would not need to be involved, and that would be a much more cost-effective —

William Humphrey (DUP, Belfast North)

I thank the Member for giving way. He mentioned Belfast City Council’s park rangers. Is he aware that it took the council a huge amount of time to recruit the rangers and the antisocial behaviour wardens? The council was unable to fill a number of places because the rangers are exposed to antisocial behaviour and violence. The same applies to detached and deployed youth workers, who are not trained to go into situations where there is extreme antisocial behaviour or almost a riotous situation.

Roy Beggs (UUP, East Antrim)

Extreme antisocial behaviour and riotous situations are policing matters, and, therefore, those should be dealt with by the police under existing legislation. I am simply saying that we need to look at a range of activities.

I am concerned that the offending rates for 2008 show that youths who have been discharged from custody have a 68% likelihood of reoffending within the next year. Therefore, we need to be careful that whatever we do brings about results. We want to minimise the likelihood of reoffending, and we need to bear in mind the cost of incarcerating young people, perhaps as a result of some of this legislation, such as £100,000 a year per person — [Interruption.]

John Dallat (Social Democratic and Labour Party, East Londonderry)

Order, please. The Member will resume his seat. I am so sorry that, so early in the day, I have to remind Members that you do not make remarks from a sedentary position. There is an opportunity for interventions, if the Member who has the Floor agrees. Continue, Mr Beggs.

Roy Beggs (UUP, East Antrim)

There is the cost of incarceration, and incarceration is the appropriate penalty for some people. However, we need to be careful about what we do.

David McIlveen (DUP, North Antrim)

Will the Member give way?

Roy Beggs (UUP, East Antrim)

I gave way a short time ago. Please allow me to develop my argument.

We ought to concentrate on prevention, the intervention stages and, when necessary, on enforcement. On the enforcement side, one of the biggest success stories in Northern Ireland is the acceptable behaviour contract (ABC). The result of that is huge changes in behaviour, which avoids expensive court time and prison. I also recognise that, if results do not occur, it may be appropriate for some to receive ASBOs or to be incarcerated. Those options are further down the list, and we need to take great care about being heavy-handed with such powerful actions.

I want to give examples of how partnership working, local solutions, local knowledge and dedicated working with families can bring about significant results. It has been drawn to my attention that Action for Children, through its early intervention project, is working in my constituency and in the Northern Trust area. Children and families are brought to its attention by the police, schools, education and welfare workers and social services. There are 70 live cases active at any one time. I am led to believe that, over the past three years, of those who have completed the additional family support programme, only three young people have subsequently been drawn to the police’s attention. So, early intervention, working with families and giving support is a very effective way of dealing with the issue. That was not mentioned in the motion, which is one of the reasons why I tabled the amendment.

There has been another very successful programme delivered by Action for Children in the community and voluntary sector that involves working with a wide range of partners and gaining information. That project works with children and young people aged 13 to 17 who have an identified risk factor. Sometimes, there can be mental health issues or behavioural problems at school. Sometimes, the parents have issues of that nature. The project has identified young people who are at risk of offending. Again, that programme has had dramatic results in improving behaviour, and it has objective criteria that can be quantified. That programme is bringing about vast improvements in behaviour and is improving the lives of hundreds of people today and will do so in the future.

Jim Wells (DUP, South Down)

Will the Member give way?

Roy Beggs (UUP, East Antrim)

Please allow me to finish.

The other aspect that is important is detached youth work. That is working very well in my constituency. Hotspots have been identified, and, perhaps, a vulnerable person who has been abused has been identified. Youth services can get detached youth workers. The YMCA in my constituency sometimes manages detached youth workers who are prepared to go into those situations, talk to young people, befriend them and attempt to give them wider experiences and a greater understanding of how the lives of others are being affected.

There was a recent situation in Eden, which was an area with no youth provision. A local church agreed to establish a youth club, and, instead of young people loitering in the corners and causing problems, they are now involved in constructive activity. That is a much better solution. I recognise that, where necessary, enforcement is proper. However, let us emphasise intervention and prevention so that very few people even get to that stage. That is the reason for the wording of my amendment.

We also have to recognise that there have been changes in recent legislation, such as the Clean Neighbourhoods and Environment Act (Northern Ireland) 2011. Significant new powers have been given to local government to deal with some of these issues. Also, the Northern Ireland Housing Executive is working closely with the police and environmental services in councils, and they are dealing with problem tenants much more proactively.

We have to look at how effective we are in what we do. There are acceptable behaviour contracts, and 65% of young people change their behaviour after the first contract. Where it has been necessary to issue a third contract, the figure for those who change their behaviour is 93%. Only at that stage do ASBOs kick in in Northern Ireland. In England, there has been a lot of bad press over ASBOs, because they have been overused. However, ASBOs have been very useful in my constituency. I think of the McDonagh family, who were causing mayhem for local businesses. I am also aware that over 90 cars were abandoned in the Taylors Avenue area, which caused problems for the community.

John Dallat (Social Democratic and Labour Party, East Londonderry)

Bring your remarks to a close, please.

Roy Beggs (UUP, East Antrim)

Let us concentrate on prevention, then intervention and, if necessary, enforcement.

Pat Sheehan (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. In principle, we are not opposed to giving police more powers, but, as a number of Members have said, this debate is wider than a debate on giving more powers to the police. So, we are opposed to the motion on three planks. First, the police are not asking for more powers. Secondly, the powers that the police have are not always utilised properly. Thirdly, experience shows that the best results in policing come when the police, the community and statutory agencies work together.

I suppose that most Members have regular contact with the police. I am in contact with police on the ground, with area and district commanders and, as a member of the Policing Board, I am in constant contact with senior command staff. As yet, no one has said to me that the police need more powers to deal with antisocial behaviour. They certainly mention other areas of the criminal justice system, such as the revolving door, whereby persistent and prolific offenders are given bail, and plea bargaining, particularly on serious offences. Those issues also need to be looked at.

In the lead-up to the elections, antisocial behaviour and low-level crime were the biggest issues that I faced on the doorstep in the area where I canvassed. There was also criticism of the police response. For example, local police were approached about a person glue-sniffing openly in the street in front of young children. Community representatives were told that glue-sniffing was not a criminal offence. That is true, but a senior police officer told me that, although glue-sniffing is not a criminal offence on its own, other criminal offences for which a person can be arrested are linked to people who sniff glue in public. Another example is that of a vulnerable single mother with three children. Her misfortune is that her house backs on to waste ground used by young people to hang about and cause trouble. When they smashed her back windows, she phoned the police at 7.00 pm, but no one had arrived by 9.30 pm. I got in contact with the police myself, and, fair enough, they were out 20 minutes later, but their initial response was not good enough.

Organisations other than the police are open to criticism. Some very young people of 10, 12, and 14 years of age are involved in antisocial behaviour. Organisations such as the Youth Justice Agency and social services should also be involved. It is not just the police who have to deal with that. Our experience shows —

Roy Beggs (UUP, East Antrim)

Will the Member give way?

Pat Sheehan (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

Go ahead.

Roy Beggs (UUP, East Antrim)

Your reference to 10-year-olds being involved in antisocial behaviour highlights the big issue of improving parenting skills in some areas.

Pat Sheehan (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

Absolutely, that is true, and I thank the Member for his intervention.

Our experience, particularly in west Belfast, is that policing works best when carried out in co-operation with the community. A number of years ago, car crime was endemic in west Belfast. As a result of lobbying by the local community, particularly by relatives of people bereaved through car crime, the PSNI set up a dedicated auto crime team. Since then, car crime, joyriding and death driving have practically died out in west Belfast. We need a model in which the police, community and statutory agencies work together. I am dismayed that the Upper Springfield Community Safety Forum will have its funding withdrawn soon. In 2009, a Criminal Justice Inspection report on the West Belfast Community Safety Forum stated that it had:

“developed levels of trust and confidence between the community and in particular, the criminal justice agencies.”

The report added:

“Given the small amount of money received, this represents real value.”

That is the way forward for policing. I will support the amendment.

Alban Maginness (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast North)

I welcome the debate and the fact that we are discussing what is a very important issue for many, many people persecuted by antisocial behaviour in their neighbourhood. That needs to be addressed.

It needs to be addressed thoroughly, so I thank the Member for introducing the motion.

However, Mr McIlveen’s motion is very narrowly based because he is looking at one aspect of a problem that is much wider than simply policing. It involves parents, parenting, schools, the community at large and many statutory agencies; it is a very complex problem that should not be seen simply as a problem of criminality.

Jim Wells (DUP, South Down)

Will the Member give way?

Alban Maginness (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast North)

I will indeed.

Jim Wells (DUP, South Down)

The Member’s generosity is in stark contrast to that of Mr Beggs. It will be a recurring theme amongst the liberal element of the Assembly — of which I am certainly not a member — this morning that this is a long-term process that will take many years and a whole series of programmes. The problem is that those who complain to me about antisocial behaviour, such as Mr McIlveen — [Interruption.] Sorry. That is probably one of them e-mailing me as I speak. They are pensioners; they are folks of 70 and 80 years of age, and single widowed ladies who live on their own. They do not have time for these programmes; they are looking for action now because, sadly, most of them will either be in residential homes or will have passed away before we can solve the problem. That is why the police need immediate powers to deal with the issue now, after which we can look at long-term programmes to deal with it fundamentally.

Alban Maginness (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast North)

I hear what you are saying, and it is reassuring that you have not turned liberal in your old age. There are no instant solutions. We would all love an instant solution, and if it were a policing solution I am sure that most of us would agree with that. However, there is no instant policing solution, so we have to deal with it patiently. We have to exercise our minds and use every resource, not just through the police but in the community, to deal with the issue. In most communities, the real powerhouse for change is schools, particularly our primary schools. They have the resources and understand the community very well because they deal with pupils and with parents.

Basil McCrea (UUP, Lagan Valley)

Will the Member give way?

Alban Maginness (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast North)

Yes, indeed.

Basil McCrea (UUP, Lagan Valley)

I will not detain the House. Will the Member agree that the evidence suggests that nursery schools and not just primary schools get our young people and their parents to socialise and that that is a valuable contribution?

Alban Maginness (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast North)

In fairness, even Mr McIlveen accepted that early interventions were important. Most colleagues in the Chamber, whether liberal or not, would accept that early interventions are very important. However, schools have a role to play, and the primary schools have a foundational role in shaping the young people in our communities. Therefore, I welcome the wider approach of Mr Beggs’s amendment because it draws in all the disparate elements in society that need to contribute to dealing with the problem. If we see it as a problem of law and order, we are falling short; if we see it as a wider social problem that all the agencies are required to look at and address, we will be successful in dealing with it.

Belfast City Council has been innovative through its use of park rangers and antisocial behaviour wardens. It may not have been as successful as people thought at first, but progress has certainly been made in reducing antisocial behaviour, and I am sure that the Department of Justice will indicate that antisocial behaviour in the community at large has fallen.

Mr McIlveen said that there is an urgency in this problem. Of course there is an urgency in this problem. However, let us not be stampeded into something unnecessarily. The police have not asked for additional powers. At this time, the police do have sufficient powers to deal with antisocial behaviour.

William Humphrey (DUP, Belfast North)

Will the Member give way?

Alban Maginness (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast North)

I am running out of time, otherwise I would.

However, some behaviour —

John Dallat (Social Democratic and Labour Party, East Londonderry)

Bring your remarks to a close please.

Alban Maginness (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast North)

Some behaviour cannot be characterised as being criminal behaviour —

John Dallat (Social Democratic and Labour Party, East Londonderry)

Your time is up.

Alban Maginness (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast North)

— and that is the problem we must address.

Stewart Dickson (Alliance, East Antrim)

I am glad to be able to speak about this important issue, as it affects people across Northern Ireland. According to the 2010 policing Omnibus survey, it affects only 13% of the population of Northern Ireland. That is not to lessen the problem but an attempt to put it into context.

The most common antisocial behaviour incidents reported are rowdiness and excessive noise, which are a source of much distress to victims, as the proposer said, particularly to the elderly, who feel most vulnerable when they see groups of young people acting in that way. Therefore, it is commendable that the motion recognises the victims of antisocial behaviour and raises the issue of how we address it. However, how we address it is important. It should not simply be a matter of calling for additional powers for the police. As other colleagues in the Chamber have described, it is a matter of tackling the issue of antisocial behaviour on a broad range of fronts.

Basil McCrea (UUP, Lagan Valley)

Will the Member accept that this is not a debate between so-called liberals and so-called hawks but is about working out what is the most effective way of dealing with the matter appropriately?

Stewart Dickson (Alliance, East Antrim)

Indeed I will. Reference was made to the lack of time and action. The reality is that you would need to be a mind reader, as would the police, if you were to take the time and the action that some Members propose should be taken. You need intelligence and, as Mr Beggs has indicated, you need to be able to identify the hot spots where the problems occur. You then need to determine the appropriate intervention — whether that is from youth workers or community organisations working in consort with the police — to deal with those problems.

There has been a reduction in antisocial behaviour across Northern Ireland by 20·7%. Indeed, there has been a high of 39% in the reduction of antisocial behaviour in north Down. That is down to good police work, with the police using innovative and imaginative ways and working with the community to tackle the problem. Like Mr Beggs, I am a former member of Carrickfergus District Policing Partnership. I stood with the police in the car park in Whitehead late at night and watched them take the most appropriate direct action, which was to take the blue bags of alcohol off young people who were drinking illegally and pour it out at their feet. That is the important way to deal with the matter. It is instant: those young people spent their £10 or £15, and do you know what? Their £15 was just poured out straight in front of them.

William Humphrey (DUP, Belfast North)

I agree, and I absolutely commend the police for doing that. The difficulty is that, in inner-city parts of Belfast, the police may well have the powers, as Mr Maginness outlined earlier, but they simply do not have the resources to do that when hundreds of people congregate. It is fine in a car park at the seafront in Whitehead but not in inner-city Belfast when people are gathered in parks and other public places.

Stewart Dickson (Alliance, East Antrim)

Clearly, there will be proportionality to all of this. I would be very concerned that the description of hundreds of young people gathering is something that is antisocial behaviour; it is, perhaps, veering on a situation where we would have a public-order incident. Believe me, groups of 30- and 40-plus can be seen, even in east Antrim. I have stood at Whitehead railway station, as has Mr Beggs, and seen 60 or 70 young people gathering in the evening and being well-policed and interventions happening on a wide range of issues.

Anna Lo (Alliance, Belfast South)

Does the Member agree that part of the problem is the availability of cheap drink, whereby people can become so drunk on a few bottles?

Stewart Dickson (Alliance, East Antrim)

I agree that that is one in a range of problems. Other Members referred to glue-sniffing. Drugs are also available to young people. However, I came here today not to damn young people but to praise them. I came here to say that the vast majority of young people are involved in GAA, soccer and other sports clubs; in youth organisations; in one-on-one groups; and with youth workers, who do a tremendous job across Northern Ireland. Young people are involved with the police in a positive way. That is what the vast majority of young people do day and daily in Northern Ireland.

We should not be using scare tactics to deal with a minority of young people, for whom, I genuinely believe, a wide range of interventions are already available, many examples of which have been given in the Chamber. One of those examples is parenting orders. Many young people are taken home by the police, and the problem that the police officer discovers is that home is the very place to which the young person should not have been taken. That is a sad indictment of parents and, as other Members said, of schooling and preschooling. Those are the areas on which we need to be concentrating. We need to be making good citizens, not bad citizens, out of good young people.

Jim Wells (DUP, South Down)

During the most recent election, in May 2011, one of the things that encouraged me, as someone who has stood in elections for 30 years, was that it was the first time that I had gone to the polls where bread-and-butter issues dominated on the doorsteps. Up until that election, constitutional issues and security were the big-ticket items on which we were constantly being lobbied. When going around the doors in May, the two concerns that were most prevalent were health service, which is understandable, and antisocial behaviour. That was the message, particularly in the larger towns and villages in the constituency. People’s message was that their lives were being plagued by antisocial behaviour.

I will give you a few of the examples that I encountered. In the older, historic part of the village of Annalong, gangs of youths are torturing pensioners who have lived in that part of the village all their lives, to the extent that many of them have been driven out by the antisocial behaviour. They simply cannot live there any longer. Such behaviour happens around this time of year, Halloween, when, unfortunately, fireworks are still all too prevalent. It is low-level activity: shoving the odd banger through the letterbox; wheeling a wheelie bin down into the harbour; or throwing stones at front doors.

There is a more sophisticated form of antisocial behaviour in Kilkeel, where the area between the two roundabouts is used as a race course. Once the police go home, the cars come out and zoom up and down the town to perhaps 1.00 am or 2.00 am. That may not be a crime, but it causes huge concern to people with small children who live in the centre of Kilkeel. However, the police can do very little about it.

Equally, there is a problem in Rathfriland. Young men race cars down the steep hills of that town. The problem is that there is very little that the police can do.

Basil McCrea (UUP, Lagan Valley)

Will the Member give way?

Jim Wells (DUP, South Down)

I will certainly give way to the liberal.

Basil McCrea (UUP, Lagan Valley)

Having outlined his litany of concerns, perhaps Mr Wells can tell us what increased police powers he wants to see that will enable the police to deal with the problems that he has outlined. Can he give us specifics of the powers that the police do not have now that he would like them to have?

Jim Wells (DUP, South Down)

We should consider a power through which the police can get involved in a situation immediately and prevent it from happening, if it seems that the situation is likely to lead to antisocial behaviour. At present, the police can do very little until a crime is committed. It might be very difficult to confirm that a crime was committed in the situations that I have outlined, but the people whose lives are being tortured by the activity night after night perceive it as a real problem, and we have to do something about it.

I will give an example of one of the nastiest incidents that happened at Halloween in south Down. Someone thought it funny to tie fireworks to a pensioner’s cat and blow it to pieces. Several scores of young people laughed their heads off when that happened. I take the point made by Mr Maginness and the other liberals here this morning —

Roy Beggs (UUP, East Antrim)

Will the Member give way?

Jim Wells (DUP, South Down)

I will, and that is in stark contrast to your generosity, Mr Beggs. [Laughter.]

Roy Beggs (UUP, East Antrim)

Tying fireworks to a cat and mutilating and killing it is clearly a crime. What additional power do you need in that instance?

Jim Wells (DUP, South Down)

The problem is that the gang was chasing the cat for several minutes before the actual event occurred. In fact, it was chasing it for half an hour. The difficulty was that, until that incident occurred, there was no antisocial behaviour.

I will return now to the points made by Mr Maginness and the Front Bench of the Ulster Unionist Party. We accept that long-term programmes need to be initiated to deal with the issue; there is no doubt that that is true. However, greater powers for the police and long-term programmes to deal with antisocial behaviour are not mutually exclusive; they can be run in tandem. The point that I was making in my intervention to Mr Maginness was that, at this time of year, I deal with people who are tortured night after night by the abuse of fireworks and antisocial behaviour. I could tell those people that we will initiate a long-term programme and that, in about 12 or 15 years, responsible parents and programmes to engage our young people will have solve the problem. However, the difficultly is that we do not have the time.

I accept that, in the leafy suburbs of east Antrim and north Down, there has been a reduction in antisocial behaviour. However, there are still pockets throughout Northern Ireland, particularly in the inner city of Belfast, Londonderry and other larger urban centres, where antisocial behaviour still plagues the community. We need to take action now to bring it under control and then wheel out the programmes suggested by Members. Those programmes will be long term and very expensive, but some will remain unaffected by them. Let us be honest: although the vast majority of young people in Northern Ireland are decent citizens, there are still those who, frankly, are quite evil in what they are doing to our communities. They are feral, they have lost control, their parents no longer have any authority over them, and they cause great difficulties to our communities. The strong arm of the law must bring them under control.

I cannot accept Mr Beggs’s point that the poor souls could end up in prison for a few weeks. They might need that short, sharp shock to bring them to their senses and make them realise that they cannot continue to torture their communities. Those affected are elderly people, handicapped people and single parents, and they cannot fight back. Those young people know the pain that they inflict on their communities, and we need the power to bring them under control. We also need to sit down and look at the root causes of the problems and develop the programmes to deal with those problems on a systematic and long-term basis.

We should not throw the baby out with the bath water. Let us get more powers to bring antisocial behaviour under control immediately.

Gerry Kelly (Sinn Féin, Belfast North)

Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. I thank the Members who tabled the motion and the amendment.

It might not look like it, but I believe that there is a wee bit of consensus in the Assembly that antisocial behaviour is not just a policing matter. It can impact on everyone. It certainly impacts on vulnerable sections of society, especially older people.

An array of views was put forward. Some Members felt that we should start in nursery schools and go the whole way through, and there were arguments from the other side that we cannot wait. However, there is no quick solution to the issue, and any rush to legislation is always a mistake. Adequate legislation is already in place. Jim Wells mentioned cats. If someone chases a cat for half an hour, that is animal cruelty, and there are laws that can deal with that.

The issue of crowds of people building up in certain areas shows that antisocial behaviour is not just a police responsibility, although they should be involved in the response. As Jim Wells said, crowds build up in urban areas, and there are certain hot spots. Community representatives, the police and statutory bodies should be in place from early in the night to talk to those gathering when they number only five or 10. We have argued that point with police in north Belfast, and if that is done, you will find that crowds do not build up. It does not always work, but my experience is that it is effective most of the time. There is a responsibility not only on the police, but on the community sector, people in the community, the statutory sector and politicians. Indeed, I think that it was Mr Dickson who said that he has been out and that we all must go out, show leadership and talk to young people.

At a district level, we also have multi-agency approaches. In north Belfast, particularly in Ardoyne and on parts of the Antrim Road, we come together every two weeks and sit down with all of the statutory agencies to deal with the issues. The issue of antisocial behaviour comes up on the doorsteps and at those meetings, but people go out and do something about it.

There is proof that that response is working. Perhaps I am reading different statistics from Roy Beggs, but I think that there has been an 8·6% drop in antisocial behaviour in the past 12 months. However, that is an overall figure, and I know that he was talking about particular areas.

Roy Beggs (UUP, East Antrim)

The statistics I cited were for the year to the end of August, compared with the same figure for the previous year.

Gerry Kelly (Sinn Féin, Belfast North)

We make the same point. Antisocial behaviour is diminishing, which means that there are practices to control it which are proven to work in inner-city areas.

I agree entirely with the amendment, which calls for greater resources to be given to the community safety partnerships and the district policing partnerships. Of course, the policing and community safety partnerships (PCSPs) are coming in to replace those bodies. I know that the Minister will talk about that later, and I ask him to talk about the resources. We must ensure that we have sufficient resources to create safer communities, and so the PCSPs must be empowered by adequate resources. We must not diminish the resources that already exist for district policing partnerships (DPPs) and community safety partnerships (CSPs). Safer communities are about reducing crime, the fear of crime and antisocial behaviour.

Let me use the example of the New Lodge area. Years ago, there was a period when hundreds of young people would gather at the bottom of the New Lodge Road. Over a period of time, between two and three years, a multiagency approach was applied that involved going to the families and talking to the young people. It was like peeling an onion, if I can use that comparison. We worked our way through, until we found out who was causing the trouble. An awful lot of young people and others were hanging about.

There are ringleaders who cause trouble, and let us not be soft on them. They travel about urban areas and you will see them first in one area, then in another and another. That is where we need the pressure of the law through enforcement of legislation, and the legislation to do that already exists. We have had substantial discussions with the police and the courts about that, because recidivists are getting out of custody on bail again and again, causing the same trouble.

I am not here to criminalise young people: no one argues that that should be done. However, there is a difficulty; let us deal with it, pinpointing it first. Restorative justice practices have clearly shown their worth over the last number of years. PSNI officers argue that that is a very good way of moving forward, and they are involved in it. ASBOs have been heavily criticised. The use of acceptable behaviour contracts is also good practice, and they can work.

I support the UUP amendment, in the absence of a Sinn Féin amendment.

Sydney Anderson (DUP, Upper Bann)

I support the motion and commend my two colleagues who secured the debate. It has caused some fireworks thus far, especially — as my colleague Jim Wells has said — among the “liberal” Members.

I am also prepared to support the amendment, but I feel that it causes a degree of unnecessary complication and that we do better to concentrate on the key priority, which is to ensure that the police have the necessary powers to tackle the scourge of antisocial behaviour.

Antisocial behaviour is a scourge, as has already been said. The debate focuses our minds on a subject that causes widespread concern throughout the whole community. As the motion states, antisocial behaviour affects “our cities, towns and villages”. It is a sad state of affairs when a community is held to ransom by those who feel that they have a right to do so, when and as they want. The Minister will remind us that levels of antisocial behaviour have fallen by 20% since 2008. That is what was said last week in the House in reply to my colleague, Peter Weir. The latest police figure, to August, and published last month, has already been cited and it reveals a decline of 8·6%.

Those trends are welcome, but they do not tell the whole story; statistics rarely do. Just as falling road accident figures are of little comfort to those who have suffered from such accidents, those who have been victims of antisocial behaviour will not be overly impressed. There is a need for robust action to be taken to tackle antisocial behaviour. It is often associated with young people. Sometimes, we hear young people complain that that is unfair, and that they are being stereotyped. Perhaps they have a point. I know from my experience that there are many good young people who play a constructive part throughout our society, and it is important that we acknowledge that. In that connection, I want to play tribute to the important role of churches that do so much good work with young people, through youth clubs and the uniformed organisations.

However, there is a gang culture in our Province that is, sadly, centred mainly on young people and is often drink and drug fuelled. We need to tackle that reality. Such gangs can intimidate and terrorise local communities on a regular basis. They can also spoil a range of social and sporting events, and the public have a right to demand protection and tougher action.

To some degree, we are all affected by antisocial behaviour, but I am particularly concerned about the effect on the elderly and other vulnerable members of our society. We must get tough in the sort of situation in which vulnerable people are bullied and threatened on the streets, in their neighbourhoods and, indeed, sometimes on their own property. The great and the good who make up the human rights industry in Northern Ireland will have many suggestions, but I would be surprised if any of those suggestions are included in proper police powers and tougher penalties.

Many underlying reasons are given for people behaving antisocially. Such underlying causes need to be looked at and addressed. No matter the reason or cause, there is never any excuse for antisocial behaviour: it is totally unacceptable. I fully support a joined-up response which involves the statutory and voluntary sectors. I also feel that parents need to face up to their responsibilities. Ultimately, the buck stops here. The onus is on us, as Members of a legislative Assembly, to ensure that the police and the courts are provided with the necessary tools. The message must —

Roy Beggs (UUP, East Antrim)

Will the Member give way?

Sydney Anderson (DUP, Upper Bann)

No, I will not be giving way.

The message must go out loudly and clearly from the Assembly to those who engage in antisocial behaviour that there must be zero toleration. [Interruption.] We have the liberal wing again when I mentioned those points. When offenders are caught they must be punished in such a way that they will be discouraged from reoffending.

William Humphrey (DUP, Belfast North)

Will the Member give way?

Basil McCrea (UUP, Lagan Valley)

Will the Member give way?

Sydney Anderson (DUP, Upper Bann)

I will give way to my —

William Humphrey (DUP, Belfast North)

I thank the Member for giving way, and I welcome the fact that I am not part of the liberal coalition. On the issue of zero tolerance, the former Mayor of New York Rudolph Giuliani was viciously attacked by those on the liberal wing of that city for introducing zero tolerance of crime and criminality. Look at how that city has been transformed. That policy clearly delivered a city which is very welcoming to visitors, one that is safe to live in and travel to.

Sydney Anderson (DUP, Upper Bann)

My colleague certainly raises a good point, and who am I to argue with the Mayor of New York in his assessment and what he has been able to do there. I think that we could move —

Basil McCrea (UUP, Lagan Valley)

Will the Member give way?

Sydney Anderson (DUP, Upper Bann)

No, I want to finish and I am pushed for time.

We need to look at what preventative measures we have in place and consider their effectiveness. We need to look at current enforcement powers and see how they can be improved. For example, can more be done to make CCTV more effective? How do we see the future role of ASBOs? I am also alarmed at the number of ASBOs that have been broken, and at what happens when that happens. My figures state that up to 30% of ASBOs are broken. Can the police be given stronger, more flexible and more effective tools?

Her Majesty’s Government have been considering a range of options, including better and more flexible police powers. We can also learn from the swift and robust action taken action lawbreakers during the summer riots in England. We must not rest on our laurels. More can and must be done.

John Dallat (Social Democratic and Labour Party, East Londonderry)

Will the Member bring his remarks to a close, please?

Sydney Anderson (DUP, Upper Bann)

I fully support the motion and I am prepared to support the amendment.

John McCallister (UUP, South Down)

Although Mr Anderson seems to have moved somewhat, and that is welcome, the debate, in which we have had some fooling around and joking over liberals and hawks, should not be about that. It should be about what works and what will deliver the best outcomes for children and young people who get involved in antisocial behaviour. During the debate, no one has argued against robust policing. However, it is about looking at what works and how to deal with the scourge of antisocial behaviour.

Of Members’ contributions to the debate, two of the most poignant have come from my colleague Mr Beggs, in proposing the amendment. He set out the facts and statistics as to what works: how we intervene with families early; how we put contracts in place; how we get things such as detached youth workers in problem areas; how we address or tackle parenting skills difficulties in the home; and how we work in nursery schools and primary schools. It is about all those issues.

Mr Sheehan opened by making three points. First, he said that the police were not asking for more powers. We have not had any suggestions from those on the DUP Benches about what further powers they would like the police to have specifically.

Jim Wells (DUP, South Down)

Will the Member give way?

John McCallister (UUP, South Down)

I will just finish, Mr Wells.

Jim Wells (DUP, South Down)

He is scared to give way.

John McCallister (UUP, South Down)

Secondly, Mr Sheehan talked about the community and statutory sector working together. We are all agreed on the need for that; it is absolutely key. Thirdly, he, of course, questioned whether the police were using the powers that they currently have. If they are not using those powers, why would you give them more? I will give way to Mr Wells, who alleged that I am afraid of him.

Jim Wells (DUP, South Down)

I suggested that the police should have the power to intervene in situations where antisocial behaviour is likely to occur. If, on a Saturday night, a group of young people who have clearly been drinking grows in number from 20 to 30 and then to 40, the police should have the power to intervene to break up that group. At the moment, they cannot do so unless a crime has actually taken place.

John McCallister (UUP, South Down)

A Member behind me just said, “Loitering with intent”.

We have already established that the police have the powers to deal with the crimes that Mr Wells outlined. To attack and mutilate a cat is a crime, and there are powers to deal with that. If people are speeding in Kilkeel, traffic patrols in the area should deal with them.

Mark Durkan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

I thank Mr McCallister for letting me in. I think that the Members on the DUP Benches are making the point that the police should be given powers to deal with not just crime itself but the fear of crime.

John McCallister (UUP, South Down)

Mr Durkan makes a very useful point.

The statistics for — I will provide these since Mr Wells and I are Members for South Down — the drop in antisocial behaviour in the three district council areas that stretch over the South Down constituency are 23·4% in the Down District Council area, 16·3% in the Banbridge District Council area and 20% in the Newry and Mourne District Council area.

All the issues outlined are difficult to deal with, and we need a commitment from a wide range of agencies, to which the police are, of course, central, that they will deal with them.

William Humphrey (DUP, Belfast North)

Will the Member give way?

John McCallister (UUP, South Down)

Just let me finish this point. However, if what is being done is actually working and we are making progress, why change course at this point? You should continue to do what is working. As I said at the start, it is about outcomes.

William Humphrey (DUP, Belfast North)

I thank Mr McCallister for giving way. Members on these Benches have consistently said that the police have the powers but there has been a failure to use those powers at times. There is another issue that must be remembered. At night-time, for example, there are six policemen covering the greater Shankill area. That is a huge issue, particularly given the fact that the Royal Irish Regiment has been taken off the streets. Commanders on the ground say that resource is a huge issue.

John McCallister (UUP, South Down)

With respect to Mr Humphrey, he is arguing against his party’s motion, which calls for the Minister of Justice to increase police powers to deal with the problem. It seems that he has moved to the position that we have been arguing for and has actually been swayed by the debate.

We are saying that it is about police response time. When people phone the police, they want a response. As other Members said, people do not want the police arriving three hours later or a police car driving past an area three hours later. That is what we are arguing for in our amendment. The motion is too narrowly focused on increasing police powers, when we should be making the argument that the police have the powers but are not using some of those powers to maximum effect. That is the point. We should focus on the outcomes that are working. We are getting reductions across district councils.

John Dallat (Social Democratic and Labour Party, East Londonderry)

Draw your remarks to a close.

John McCallister (UUP, South Down)

We need to keep building on that success rather than criminalising all young people.

John Dallat (Social Democratic and Labour Party, East Londonderry)

Time is up. I can call Mr Conall McDevitt to speak very briefly.

Conall McDevitt (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast South)

Mr Deputy Speaker, I genuinely appreciate your giving me just a couple of minutes in which to speak. I support the amendment. I am not sure that the Tea Party is going to get off the ground in Northern Ireland, but maybe the DUP sees a future for it.

The Assembly needs to fess up to having made a big mistake when debating this issue in the House over the past six months. Some six months ago, when the Justice Bill was before the previous Assembly, every Member passed up the opportunity to put into law a statutory duty to co-operate. On mature reflection, we all need to accept that, by passing up that opportunity to put into law a statutory duty on all statutory agencies to co-operate, we gave many agencies that should be involved in tackling antisocial behaviour at grass-roots level an opportunity not to commit to doing so in the way in which they should. Therefore, I would very much like the Minister to give a firm commitment to bring back a short amendment that would allow the House to right that wrong and to give us the statutory footing on which to proceed.

John Dallat (Social Democratic and Labour Party, East Londonderry)

I ask the Member to bring his remarks to a close.

David Ford (Alliance, South Antrim)

I welcome the opportunity to debate antisocial behaviour. If nothing else, it has been demonstrated by what has been said in the House that it is an issue of significant importance to society. The timing of the debate is quite opportune because, in the coming months, as part of the programme to reshape the justice system, I will look at the strategic priorities for the new community safety strategy, ‘Building Safer, Shared and Confident Communities’. The final strategy will be the result of a comprehensive programme of engagement with local communities throughout Northern Ireland. I attended a number of public meetings that were held during the consultation period earlier in 2011. I heard directly from local communities on issues that were important to them. At all those meetings, antisocial behaviour featured as a top priority for local communities. The final strategy will reflect that.

It might be useful to look at what is and is not antisocial behaviour. The statutory definition is to have acted

“in a manner that caused or was likely to cause harassment, alarm or distress to one or more persons not of the same household as”

the defendant. However, antisocial behaviour can mean different things to different people, with an understanding of what constitutes antisocial behaviour being influenced by a number of factors, including context, location and quality-of-life expectations. As a result, what might be considered to be antisocial by one person could be seen to be acceptable by another. The subjective nature of antisocial behaviour can make it difficult to identify a common understanding of the term.

The original premise of the term “antisocial behaviour” was to describe a range of behaviours that had a negative effect on quality-of-life issues: minor disorder and incivilities and behaviour that was below the threshold for criminal prosecution. However, the phrase has somehow gathered some kind of momentum. It now covers a host of issues, right up to and including rioting. Let us be absolutely clear that we distinguish between what is antisocial behaviour and what is criminal activity.

What “antisocial” means in a local context is best illustrated by looking at what causes harassment, alarm or distress. As many Members have highlighted, the most commonly reported incidents concern rowdy, nuisance or inconsiderate behaviour. That accounts for more than half the incidents of antisocial behaviour that have been reported in the past two years. What is really important — it has been highlighted by some Members — is the harm that that type of behaviour can have on its victims. Antisocial behaviour can have a very real impact on those who are directly affected. It can have a disproportionate impact, particularly on older and vulnerable people. It is, therefore, essential that all key stakeholders with responsibility work in partnership to communicate a clear message about their roles and responsibilities; the actions that they will take to deal with incidents of antisocial behaviour; the support that they will provide for victims; their plans to prevent antisocial behaviour; and measures to deal with perpetrators.

There have been successes to date, as Roy Beggs highlighted when he proposed the amendment. Other Members did the same in their contribution. Tackling antisocial behaviour is a key priority for my Department. We have a graduated response of prevention, intervention and enforcement, which has contributed to a 20% reduction in incidents of antisocial behaviour since 2007-08. I am determined to build on that success and support communities to address local issues of concern. It is of interest that the target was 15%, yet we have achieved a reduction of more than 20%.

The leafy suburbs were mentioned. Although it is clear that there was a 37% reduction in antisocial behaviour in north Down, it is also the case that in Lagan Valley, which is perhaps not quite so leafy but certainly does not constitute the inner city, saw only a 3% reduction, while areas such as east and north Belfast saw reductions in the range of 16% and 17%. Therefore, the pattern is quite mixed across Northern Ireland, but, overall, the trend is down everywhere. That has been underpinned by the crime survey over the past three years, showing that downward trend. The three-year trend, which shows that the target has been exceeded, is significantly more important than what may happen in a one- or two-year circumstance. That success has been based on partnership working with key stakeholders at regional and local level adopting a graduated approach to antisocial behaviour and with the delivery of preventive measures to build community confidence. That encourages community involvement in crime prevention, the provision of physical measures to reduce crime and antisocial behaviour and proposals such as community safety wardens, neighbourhood watch schemes and CCTV. The whole package contributes, and one of the key issues highlighted in the Chamber is early intervention.

Community and voluntary groups have made a valuable contribution at local level to reducing antisocial behaviour, and I have had the pleasure of seeing at first hand the innovative approach that people have adopted in some areas around issues of local concern. For example, I recently helped to launch the ‘Hold it Down’ interactive computer game in Strabane. That was developed by Strabane Community Safety Partnership, with input from a number of young people in the area. It was designed to appeal to young people while delivering a warning about the risk of engaging in antisocial behaviour. That is positive constructive engagement at an early level.

The wider approach that we have developed has included intervention measures such as diversionary initiatives to reduce the potential for young people to be involved in antisocial behaviour and intergenerational initiatives to promote respect and understanding between older and younger people. We have also seen positive use of semi-formal interventions, such as warning letters, which notify respondents of unacceptable behaviour and provide advice when their behaviour is being monitored. Mention was also made this morning of the use of acceptable behaviour contracts as an effective tool to prevent a recurrence of antisocial behaviour. When early interventions are not successful, it is clear that enforcement measures are needed, such as anti-social behaviour orders, which prohibit a named individual from continuing in specific antisocial acts, to protect communities from further incidents.

Through the consultation on the new community safety strategy, there has been broad support for that graduated response to antisocial behaviour and recognition of the benefits of early intervention to prevent individuals, particularly children and young people, engaging in antisocial behaviour. Antisocial behaviour is fundamentally a local problem; therefore, the long-term solutions will come in part from improved local partnership working and empowering individuals and communities to become engaged in finding solutions to local problems.

I welcome the support that Mr McDevitt has just given to the concept of the duty to co-operate. However, I am not sure that his two-minute speech this morning will have persuaded the majority of Ministers who are unwilling to accept it. Nevertheless, it is an issue that the House needs to keep under review.

Part of the amendment calls on me to delegate greater resources and responsibility to the community safety partnerships to tackle the issue by working with local government and the community and voluntary sector. As the Members who tabled the amendment will be aware, financial resources have been allocated for this year. Those resources are targeted towards priority areas, and it is clear that antisocial behaviour is a priority area for the great majority of local partnerships. That has been replicated in the policing plan. That ensures that resources are already prioritised towards antisocial behaviour, which is a point that Gerry Kelly raised. The Department and the Policing Board will soon be working on strategic priorities for the new PCSPs, and the significant resources that will be invested there will be prioritised towards meeting those objectives. The issue of resources will be kept under review if there is any opportunity to enhance the resources going forward. I believe that we will see PCSPs playing a pivotal role in building confidence in the justice system and ensuring that the public help to develop solutions to tackle crime, the fear of crime and antisocial behaviour as we seek to build a safer society.

There was also recognition that enforcement measures may be required, although, perhaps, there was little agreement about what they might be. When the consultation process was set out, the document referred to the possibility of parenting orders, dispersal orders and support orders having been raised previously, but it said that they would be considered only if compelling arguments were presented during the consultation. There was a range of views, and the final report will reflect that, but, at the moment, I see little sign of any compelling case having been made for significant enhancement compared to the enhancement that is required at the preventive level.

We certainly have contrary views on the use of anti-social behaviour orders, for example. Some say that their current relatively limited and proportionate effect in Northern Ireland has been very effective as part of the range of powers. However, others, particularly those associated with children’s rights groups and some children and young people, are concerned about the value of anti-social behaviour orders against the potential that they are in breach of the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child.

There has been some support for dispersal orders, although the PSNI has acknowledged that, if they were introduced, the powers would have to be used very sparingly and only when any other means had failed after trial.

Jim Wells (DUP, South Down)

Will the Minister give way?

David Ford (Alliance, South Antrim)

Yes.

Jim Wells (DUP, South Down)

I am glad that the Minister has raised the issue of dispersal orders. Why could they be used only sparingly? It strikes me that, in many of the examples of antisocial behaviour with which I deal, dispersal orders should be the first tactic used to deal with the situation immediately. Before an even larger crowd of antisocial youths gathers, they should be dispersed to various parts of the town or back to their homes to prevent a situation arising in the first place.

David Ford (Alliance, South Antrim)

I am quoting only the PSNI’s advice. However, as a constituency MLA, I know examples of, in effect, the operation of an informal dispersal arrangement. One was a case of a single relatively junior female police officer going into a crowd of people before it got to a difficult size and simply suggesting that they go home and stop creating a nuisance. The great majority of them left, leaving one or two troublemakers to be dealt with by the force of law. That seems to me to be a perfect example of the right approach, which did not require dispersal orders.

Similarly, issues have been raised about parenting orders. Some see the potential benefits of parenting orders. There is general agreement on the vital role of parents and guardians in responding to antisocial behaviour and the benefits of providing support to parents. However, many people see that as the appropriate level of early intervention: provision of support for families as a preventative measure rather than waiting until a child or young person is caught up in the criminal justice system. That seems to be the area in which there is general agreement around the House. Although some Members seek more active police intervention at this stage, there seems to be general agreement that there needs to be much greater use of early intervention and a much greater commitment of resources. Of course, that is not necessarily an issue for the Department of Justice but is more for other Departments, notably the Department of Education and the Department of Health, Social Services and Public Safety.

I want to express appreciation of the level of interest in today’s debate. It has illustrated the views that we heard as the issue was consulted on during the community safety strategy process. As the strategic priorities are developed, I will take full consideration of all the views that were raised in the consultation and those raised by Members in the House today. However, any decision on antisocial behaviour powers has to be assessed on what measures are appropriate, proportionate and effective to support cohesive working across the justice system. Legislation on its own will not impact on the antisocial behaviour that affects people’s quality of life. That will be achieved only through what so many Members have talked about: sustained partnership working between agencies, voluntary groups and local communities and the delivery of a consistent and effective response to concerns about antisocial behaviour.

At the same time as we deal with the perpetrators, it is essential that key stakeholders who have a responsibility in this field target their resources to identify vulnerable victims of antisocial behaviour and to ensure that victims receive the support and protection that they deserve. I welcome the fact that the Chief Constable recently began the process of supporting victims by implementing a new operation system to deal with antisocial behaviour incidents and to identify those to whom antisocial behaviour causes the most harm. The new community safety strategy will underpin that approach to antisocial behaviour. Partnership working across government and the new PCSPs will ensure that issues of importance to local communities will be a priority.

As the motion states, I acknowledge that antisocial behaviour causes significant anxiety. We should also acknowledge that not only are the statistics of incidents of behaviour reducing but the level of anxiety is decreasing. It is not the function of the Assembly to add to that anxiety. We should recognise that the trend is moving in the right direction, although perhaps more slowly than we would hope. The key point is that antisocial behaviour is not an issue for the police or the justice system alone. It is an issue to which, as Mr Maginness said, a wider approach is required. Full partnership is required across a range of agencies and local communities. For that reason, I support the amendment.

Basil McCrea (UUP, Lagan Valley)

I am a little disappointed that Members to my left have attempted to characterise the debate as one of liberals versus hawks, as if somehow our views were not valid. The real issue about the motion is that the DUP has failed to make a case. It has failed to provide evidence to support its motion and has flown in the face of evidence that has been presented by other people. The motion is not only populist but ill conceived and flies in the face of the facts. It is vital for people to come forward and challenge these issues. I note people shaking their head, but they would not take interventions when we wished to debate the point, and I will make that point over and over again.

Sydney Anderson (DUP, Upper Bann)

Does the Member agree that the figures and statistics that we heard today do not represent the true picture? There are elderly people who are prisoners in their own home. They lock their doors at 4 o’clock or 5 o’clock in the evening, when these antisocial people are outside their front door causing mayhem, because they are scared to come out until the next day. Why does the Member say that we on the DUP Benches are coming across with the wrong agenda?

Basil McCrea (UUP, Lagan Valley)

The Member has just done it to himself more eloquently than I could have done it. You do not accept the facts and figures produced by the PSNI, the Policing Board, the Minister of Justice or anybody else in this place.

Dealing with antisocial behaviour is a complex, long-term issue that thrives best with community involvement. At the risk of giving Pat Sheehan further applause, I will say that the police are not asking for more powers; they are not necessarily using the powers that they have all the time. The real issue is encouraging community involvement. Our amendment makes it clear that what we should be doing with the DPPs and the CSPs that have been set up —

William Humphrey (DUP, Belfast North)

Will the Member give way?

Basil McCrea (UUP, Lagan Valley)

No, I will not give way now. I have done so once already.

We need to look now at how to get the proper resources into those areas. If you had read the research or bothered to do your homework, you would have seen what people are saying. Report after report says that people want more visible policing on the ground —

John Dallat (Social Democratic and Labour Party, East Londonderry)

Order. Will the Member make his remarks through the Chair?

Basil McCrea (UUP, Lagan Valley)

As I was saying, Deputy Speaker, as I was admiring the fine artwork round here — [Interruption.]

William Humphrey (DUP, Belfast North)

Will the Member give way?

Basil McCrea (UUP, Lagan Valley)

No, I will not, because you would not give way earlier when we were trying to have the debate. The issue is that you have been — [Interruption.]

John Dallat (Social Democratic and Labour Party, East Londonderry)

Order. The Member will resume his seat. It would be very unfortunate if I were to find some Members guilty of antisocial behaviour during a debate on antisocial behaviour. [Laughter.] You should not make remarks from a sedentary position, and the Member will make his remarks through the Chair. Continue.

Basil McCrea (UUP, Lagan Valley)

Absolutely —

Gregory Campbell (DUP, East Londonderry)

Calm down.

Basil McCrea (UUP, Lagan Valley)

Mr Deputy Speaker, I heard voices off to my left. I look to your direction on this.

John Dallat (Social Democratic and Labour Party, East Londonderry)

The Member will resume his seat. I assure the Member that I am more than capable of looking after affairs.

Basil McCrea (UUP, Lagan Valley)

Mr Deputy Speaker, I look for your protection in all these matters and value your guidance.

I will deal with the issue because it is of supreme importance to many people. I do not deny that people are worried or that we need to address the issue. The question is how best to address it. The facts show that antisocial behaviour is responding to treatment and that many issues that were outlined here as failures to deal with the problem are, in themselves, criminal activities that should be dealt with in the appropriate manner. All of us have said —

Steven Agnew (Green, North Down)

Will the Member give way?

Basil McCrea (UUP, Lagan Valley)

I will see if it is OK with the Deputy Speaker.

Steven Agnew (Green, North Down)

I thank the Deputy Speaker, and I thank the Member for giving way, because I did not get a chance to speak in the debate. A point was made about evidence, and Mr Wells made the quite emotive comment that perhaps what some of them need is two weeks in prison. However, does the Member agree that the evidence does not support such an approach? Although it is an understandable emotional response, it is not one that is based on evidence.

Basil McCrea (UUP, Lagan Valley)

All the evidence suggests that, as the Committee for Justice was told:

“indications from international research are that contact with the criminal justice system tends to accelerate criminality”.

Children and young people will stop offending most quickly if they are dealt with in another manner.

In my final couple of minutes, I will conclude by putting out a challenge. In dealing with this issue, when we look at what people want, we see that they want information. DPP surveys, which will have been brought forward by the Policing Board, show that people want the police to be there early; they want the police to be visible; they want to know what telephone number they should call when there is an issue; and they want local people to get around the table and find local solutions to local problems. That is the key issue in all of this. It behoves everybody — not just the DUP but elements of the media — to behave responsibly and not to speculate, come forward with ill-founded opinions or try to make an issue out of it. People should look at the facts —

John Dallat (Social Democratic and Labour Party, East Londonderry)

The Member will draw his remarks to a close.

Basil McCrea (UUP, Lagan Valley)

— look for what works and support the amendment. I would go so far as to reject the motion, because it is not going in the right direction.

Gordon Dunne (DUP, North Down)

How do I follow all that? All the issues have been well and truly covered.

Antisocial behaviour still affects people in every constituency in Northern Ireland, as was pointed out during the debate, and there was broad support for further action. The issue affects all our towns, cities and villages. It often adversely affects the elderly, which was illustrated many times today.

A recent survey carried out by the North Down DPP, in which 438 people took part, highlighted antisocial behaviour as the number one issue of concern. Therefore, it is an issue even in places such as north Down, which I represent. The Minister highlighted a decrease in incidents. However, as I said, in areas such as north Down, it is still the number one issue of concern.

Jim Wells (DUP, South Down)

Figures have been quoted today, and significant decreases in incidents of antisocial behaviour are to be welcomed. However, even if we take the most optimistic figures quoted by Mr Ford and Mr Dickson of 20% or 21%, that still leaves around 80%. Therefore, it is a very important issue to the individuals who still suffer as a result of those incidents. It is no consolation to go to a little old lady in Annalong or Kilkeel and say, “The good news is that Warrenpoint and Castlewellan have had a 20% decrease”. That is no consolation: those people are still being tortured.

Gordon Dunne (DUP, North Down)

Thank you, Mr Wells, for that information. A ‘Belfast Telegraph’ survey in August 2010 showed that 82% of people wanted robust action on antisocial behaviour. Such surveys go some way to representing the strength of feeling in the community on the issue.

My colleague Mr McIlveen, who proposed the motion, said that part of the problem is to do with how the police can combat and control antisocial behaviour. He made the point about increasing police powers, and I will come to that later. His main issue was the power of dispersal. He wants the police to have some power in that regard. There is no doubt that police have great difficulty taking direct action against those irresponsible young people because they are so tied up with legislation and the rights of everyone. That is the problem: the police operate under such tight scrutiny that they find it difficult to take proper action in dealing with antisocial behaviour.

The police have a key role in the issue, and I feel that it is vital that they have greater discretion to tackle the problem of antisocial behaviour in the most effective ways possible.

As the Minister has indicated, there is no doubt that we need a joined-up approach to tackle the issue, and much has been made of that today. There is a wide range of responsible players, including the PSNI, DPPs, CSPs, parents, teachers, youth workers, community workers and universities. They all have an important part to play in dealing with the issue. I know of two local councils in my constituency, North Down Borough Council and Ards Borough Council, which have set up dedicated antisocial behaviour teams to deal with the problem, and they have been relatively successful. The presence of the patrol vehicles around the area and their interaction with young people gives some reassurance to law-abiding citizens and also plays an important part in the deterrent factor.

Antisocial behaviour has many factors with a vital role to play, and it is important that there is a greater reduction in antisocial behaviour. Many young people are certainly not always to blame. Statistics show that they are often responsible for antisocial behaviour incidents, and we have to look at parental responsibility and the issue of truancy. We certainly welcome the reported statistical reductions in antisocial behaviour. The positive figures are welcome. However, statistics will not be any comfort to those victims of the problem who are prisoners in their own homes. They want to see robust action taken to tackle the problem head-on. More direct action is required by authorities to deal with the problem. We need effective action, not empty promises.

There has been a very comprehensive debate and quite a bit of agreement on quite a number of the issues. David McIlveen, who proposed the motion, offered an illustration of an 83-year-old lady. That is what it comes back to. I think that some Members lose sight of what their constituents are living with and dealing with. He mentioned an 83-year-old who lives under intimidation. Stones are fired at her door, and there are holes in her hedge. The police are called, but, by the time they get there, the youths have disappeared, and no action is taken.

Basil McCrea (UUP, Lagan Valley)

I would like to place on record that we agree that such activity is reprehensible and should be absolutely condemned and stopped. However, I wonder what powers he is looking for or how we would improve that situation. What would we do to deal with that?

Gordon Dunne (DUP, North Down)

He mentioned the Anti-social Behaviour Act. His point is that he feels that there needs to be power of dispersal, so that the police can disperse a crowd early on, before a real situation or a real risk develops.

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

Will the Member give way?

Gordon Dunne (DUP, North Down)

No, thanks. Roy Beggs took the liberal point of view, when he made the point that calling for more police powers was a simplistic view and that we must take care not to be heavy-handed. Obviously, he does not live in the real world and know what is going on.

Roy Beggs (UUP, East Antrim)

Will the Member give way?

Gordon Dunne (DUP, North Down)

No, thanks. Pat Sheehan made the point that the police have not been asked, police powers were not properly used and policing was more to do with the work of statutory agencies. He also mentioned that, in west Belfast, a lot of good policing went on with the community. He made his point about the loss of funding in relation to Upper Springfield Road.

Alban Maginness made the point that it amounted to persecution of the elderly folk. That is true. It is a reality that people are being persecuted in their homes. I think that that has been highlighted a number of times today. Maybe some Members do not recognise that. Maybe they are not in their constituencies enough to know what really is going on. Mr Maginness also made a good point about local primary schools. He felt that they had an important part to play and that the early years were important.

William Humphrey (DUP, Belfast North)

I am grateful to the Member for giving way. Does the Member agree with me that the motion proposed by Mr McIlveen and the amendment tabled by the Ulster Unionist Party — it seeks to have a review of powers to deal with the problem — are actually not a million miles away from each other?

Gordon Dunne (DUP, North Down)

Yes, indeed. Thank you for that. Stewart Dickson made the point that working with the community was very important. [Interruption.] He also talked about the positive aspects of young people, and those should be made clear today. He had a lot of praise for young people, and it is important that we do not stereotype them all. As Members on this side of the House made clear, it is a small minority that needs to be dealt with effectively.

Jim Wells, who is obviously a very active Member and is very proactive in his constituency, gave us a very clear example of what is happening in places such as Kilkeel, Rathfriland and Annalong, where young people are torturing elderly people with fireworks. Jim obviously has clear evidence of that, and he mentioned a cat. Jim is very involved in animal rights, and it is of great concern to him and, indeed, to everyone that a cat would be destroyed by fireworks. That type of behaviour is totally unacceptable. We have heard about that type of thing happening Province-wide, not just in South Down.

Gerry Kelly made the point that there is no quick answer, and he mentioned a multi-agency approach. Everyone can support that, because a multi-agency approach, with the police taking the lead, is needed. He mentioned restorative justice, thankfully very briefly, and —

John Dallat (Social Democratic and Labour Party, East Londonderry)

The Member must bring his remarks to a close.

Gordon Dunne (DUP, North Down)

Other Members, such as Sydney Anderson, made the point about zero tolerance. John McCallister was more worried —

John Dallat (Social Democratic and Labour Party, East Londonderry)

I am sorry; the Member’s time is up.

Gordon Dunne (DUP, North Down)

Thank you very much, Mr Deputy Speaker. I will reluctantly support the amendment. [Interruption.]

John Dallat (Social Democratic and Labour Party, East Londonderry)

Order.

Question, That the amendment be made, put and agreed to.

Main Question, as amended, put and agreed to.

Resolved:

That this Assembly recognises the severe anxiety that antisocial behaviour is causing people living in our cities, towns and villages; and calls on the Minister of Justice to delegate greater resources and responsibility to the community safety partnerships and the district policing partnerships to tackle the issue by working with local government and the community and voluntary sector to bring about local solutions; and further calls for a review of police powers to deal with this problem.

John Dallat (Social Democratic and Labour Party, East Londonderry)

Order. The Business Committee has agreed to allow up to one hour and 30 minutes for this debate. The proposer of the motion will have 10 minutes to propose the motion and 10 minutes to make a winding-up speech. One amendment has been selected and published on the Marshalled List. The proposer of the amendment will have 10 minutes to propose the amendment and five minutes to make a winding-up speech. All other Members who wish to speak will have five minutes.

Oliver McMullan (Sinn Féin, East Antrim)

I beg to move

That this Assembly calls on the Executive to consider the role of the Crown Estate along our coastline with a view to maximising any possible financial return to the Executive.

Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. I support the motion, which will ensure that all powers currently held by the Crown Estate that deal with the seabed in our territorial waters as far as the 12-mile nautical limit are returned to and administered by the Assembly in the North of Ireland, solely for the purpose of creating present and future financial benefit for the local economy.

In July this year, the British Government commenced —

Jim Allister (Traditional Unionist Voice, North Antrim)

Will the Member give way?

Oliver McMullan (Sinn Féin, East Antrim)

I have not really got started yet. I will allow you later on.

As recently as July this year, the British Government commenced their plans for a new coastal communities fund. That fund is equivalent to 50% of the revenue that is produced from our territorial waters and taken by the Crown Estate. At present, that total yearly income is £1 million. However, by the time that administrative costs come out of that sum, only 50% of it will be left — approximately £500,000. In fact, we believe that it could be in the order of just over £400,000.

Jim Wells (DUP, South Down)

Will the Member give way?

Oliver McMullan (Sinn Féin, East Antrim)

Yes.

Jim Wells (DUP, South Down)

What the Member is saying is not in compliance with the motion, which:

“calls on the Executive to consider the role of the Crown Estate along our coastline with a view to maximising any possible financial return to the Executive.”

You suggest that we transfer the functions of the Crown Estate Commissioners to the Northern Ireland Assembly. That is very different from what is in the motion before the House.

Oliver McMullan (Sinn Féin, East Antrim)

If the Member just waits until I get through what I am saying, he will see that I am asking the Executive to do a lot of that work. Just bear with me.

The funds are available for businesses, social enterprises and charities. The applications will be based on a bidding system. Coastal communities will not benefit from a scheme in that format. The main question is why only 50% of the revenue comes back. Why not 100%?

Let us set aside the coastal communities fund and, as I said to the Member, look at the real benefits that we would gain from having control of our seabed. The sea has always been one of the most productive areas for the food industry and aquaculture. At present, 81 fish farms are licensed by the Department of Agriculture and Rural Development (DARD). Of those, 48 are marine farm licences for the cultivation of shellfish and 33 are licences for fin fish, including rainbow trout, brown trout and salmon farms. The most recent figures, which were gathered in 2008, showed that the industry was worth approximately £9·5 million. The sea is fast becoming a major asset for tourism: beaches, harbours, marinas and bases for recreational boating. The number of cruise ships docking here in the North has risen, with the number of passengers increasing from 57,000 in 2009 to 62,000 in 2010.

Why do I mention that? Councils, harbours, ports, fish farms and shellfish operations, all of which are in Strangford and Carlingford, have leases on the seabed, as have gas pipelines, electricity connectors, gas storage and fibre optics. That means that they have to pay rent, which, of course, is paid to the Crown Estate. Wind farms have the potential to be the most lucrative market of all. Indeed, the lucrative market of Europe has suggested that offshore wind farms are more beneficial. In addition to the offshore wind farms, there are onshore buildings and cables that take the generated electricity to the grid.

Not that long ago, the Minister of Finance and Personnel said in the Assembly that we had to seek out new revenue streams because of the cut in the block grant.

Mervyn Storey (DUP, North Antrim)

To say that we are confused about where the Member is going is probably an understatement. How would, for example, the island of Rathlin in my North Antrim constituency benefit as a result of wind farms being placed there? Will he tell the House how the Crown, in any way, would be disadvantaged by placing a wind farm on Rathlin Island? The local community would benefit in the same way as the community on Gigha, on the west coast of Scotland. There is no disadvantage to the Crown. Will he explain where all this is going?

Oliver McMullan (Sinn Féin, East Antrim)

I am sure that the Member knows that I am not talking about putting wind farms anywhere. In the marine Bill that will come before the Assembly, Rathlin will be a zoned area, so it will have environmental protection. You did not listen to what I was saying. I will not get into that argument with you because you are famous for it. [Laughter.]

As a legislative body, we face cuts in all departmental budgets. However, we have a growing industry on our doorstep. While we face cuts in the block grant, the same Government who force those cuts on us earn £1 million from that industry, and that figure is rising. Everybody knows that that is unjust.

Many international companies have indicated their interest in the industry in the North of Ireland and in the development of marine renewable projects. A growing industry is right under our noses and could generate a financial boost for the North. At present, however, all revenue goes back to the Crown Estate.

The Department of Enterprise, Trade and Investment (DETI) —

Jim Allister (Traditional Unionist Voice, North Antrim)

Will the Member give way?

Oliver McMullan (Sinn Féin, East Antrim)

I have given way twice already.

Jim Allister (Traditional Unionist Voice, North Antrim)

Not to me.

Oliver McMullan (Sinn Féin, East Antrim)

I know that.

DETI has also seen the huge potential for possible investment in the range of between £330 million and £880 million by 2020. The Minister of Enterprise, Trade and Investment and those who are responsible for the Crown Estate have said in writing that they will propose new leases for the seabed where that will be beneficial to those who want to invest. It follows that an investment today of £1 million could be a massive amount by 2020. It could be £10 million or £20 million. We do not know the value of those leases or anything else.

For the benefit of the Assembly, I will read out some figures. Cables in the seabed bring a rental income of £323,000 a year. Commercial development brings £228,000 a year, mooring brings £11,000 and marinas bring £160,000. I point out to Members whose constituency lies in coastal areas that ratepayers are paying for that.

Mervyn Storey (DUP, North Antrim)

They are keeping up the charges in Moyle.

John Dallat (Social Democratic and Labour Party, East Londonderry)

Order, please. I am disappointed that I have to remind Members yet again that you do not make remarks from a sedentary position. When a Member moves a motion, he or she is entitled to do so.

Oliver McMullan (Sinn Féin, East Antrim)

I remind the Member that Rathlin Island, which he champions, is also paying rent for the moorings there.

Mervyn Storey (DUP, North Antrim)

Speak to them.

Oliver McMullan (Sinn Féin, East Antrim)

We have spoken to them.

The pipelines bring in £870,000, but on the issue of wind farms, we are dependent on Europe because we have to reach a target of having 40% of our electricity from renewable sources by 2020. If all of that is going to be put on top of it, we must try to get as much out of it as we can. Invest NI is working to quantify the economic benefits from the marine sector. The latest figures show that in the region of 4,000 new jobs would come in as a result of the investment.

Members, it is my belief that that control of the seabed would give us greater influence with international companies. It would have great potential to create thousands of new jobs. It would also be a contributing factor in helping to tackle fuel poverty. There is a large scheme at Larne harbour, where an international company has applied to store gas under the seabed. We must get a part of that as well. The Scottish Parliament has been pushing for all of the Crown Estate that is in Scottish waters and on Scottish land to be handed back to it.

The motion could open up new ideas and see a new era for economic growth and employment potential. Already, organisations such as Harland and Wolff, B9 and Deepblue Renewables are investing heavily in the marine industry. In fact, the Marine Current Turbine (MCT) SeaGen tidal project in Strangford lough, which was installed in 2008, was the world’s first commercial-scale project to generate to a national grid.

John Dallat (Social Democratic and Labour Party, East Londonderry)

Draw your remarks to a close, please.

Oliver McMullan (Sinn Féin, East Antrim)

Although so many commendable proposals are included in the proposed marine Bill, which is due to be published shortly —

John Dallat (Social Democratic and Labour Party, East Londonderry)

Time is up.

Oliver McMullan (Sinn Féin, East Antrim)

— it still falls short. I ask the Assembly to accept the motion.

Dominic Bradley (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Newry and Armagh)

I beg to move the following amendment: Leave out all after “Assembly” and insert:

“notes schedule 3 paragraph 5 to the Northern Ireland Act 1998, which declares the foreshore, seabed and subsoil and their natural resources a reserved matter; and calls on the Executive to open negotiations with the Treasury in order to maximise any possible financial return from the Crown Estate to the Executive.”

Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. Tá an-áthas orm an leasú ar an rún a mholadh. Sin an fáth ar bheartaigh muid ar an leasú a thabhairt isteach nó go gceapaimid go gcuireann sé leis an rún, go dtreisíonn sé é agus leathnaíonn sé tionchair an rúin. I am pleased to propose the amendment to the motion. We have tabled the amendment because we believe that it adds to and strengthens the motion and expands its scope. The SDLP advocates a bold approach to deliver economic prosperity for the people of Northern Ireland.

We must recognise the current political position and how it affects the Executive’s opportunity to develop the North’s economy. The Executive’s ability to gain potential financial returns from things such as renewable energy development off the shores of Northern Ireland is certainly complicated by the arcane nature of affairs, which still sees many relevant development areas coming under the ownership of the Crown Estate. Therefore, we must immediately open negotiations with the Treasury on the receipts from the Crown Estate and the related ownership issues. Indeed, we must go much further.

This is not the first time that we have highlighted the need to open negotiations with the Treasury on a range of issues. Our 2010 Westminster manifesto outlined the need to further devolve powers to Northern Ireland, and, with the prospect of the Executive going into negotiations with the Treasury on corporation tax, this debate should be widened and deepened for the benefit of our economy. Now is a good time to do that.

The other key proposals that the Executive must put forward in any negotiations with the Treasury, all of which are covered by the Northern Ireland Act 1998, include lowering corporation tax, which I mentioned earlier, and a wider maximisation of our fiscal discretion to provide further economic levers for this region. We should also open negotiations on the control of broadcasting, telecommunications and the internet, which all have a massive impact on our modern economy, on culture and on North/South relations. We should also negotiate the power to control our own aviation strategies to negate the current competition problems and boost industry and tourism. There is also an opportunity to control our own energy and mineral resources, which, aside from renewable energy development, could also provide the Executive —

Peter Weir (DUP, North Down)

I thank the Member for giving way. To be fair, we accused the proposer of the motion of moving away from the motion’s content. We now seemed to have moved from the seabed to aviation. I am wondering whether it is now SDLP policy for us to make a launch at the moon or Mars. Is an Ulsterman on the Moon the scope of SDLP ambitions?

Dominic Bradley (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Newry and Armagh)

As regards an Ulsterman on the moon, there is a candidate who immediately comes to mind and shall, for the moment, remain nameless.

I thank the Member for his intervention, which is quite useful as it gives me the opportunity to direct him to the amendment that I am proposing. I am not proposing the motion; I am proposing the amendment. As I said in my opening remarks, the purpose of the amendment is to widen the scope of the motion, so I hope that the Member has been suitably enlightened on that point.

Peter Weir (DUP, North Down)

Will the Member give way?

Dominic Bradley (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Newry and Armagh)

I have given way already; do not be pushing it, please.

As I said, we have the opportunity to control our own energy and mineral resources, which, aside from renewable energy development, could also provide the Executive with more say in the development of contentious issues such as fracking.

There is also the chance to best protect the Northern Ireland public, particularly vulnerable people, through the ability to set our own minimum wage and national insurance levels and to oversee consumer protection. It would also benefit community organisations if we had control over lottery spending here.

That, of course, is not an exhaustive list, but in order to free up the Executive to take the necessary action to rebalance the economy and create jobs and economic growth, the SDLP has proposed a 25-year economic and financial framework compact with the Treasury.

Jim Wells (DUP, South Down)

On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. It is quite clear that the honourable Member for Newry and Armagh has drifted a long way from Crown Estate Commissioners and the utilisation of the seabed. We have gone into territory that none of us could have anticipated.

John Dallat (Social Democratic and Labour Party, East Londonderry)

I encourage the Member to stick to the amendment.

Dominic Bradley (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Newry and Armagh)

Thank you very much for that kind advice, Mr Deputy Speaker, and, as you know, I always take good advice.

The long-term project of rebalancing the economy would require this compact to be sustained even if Northern Ireland’s constitutional position were to change democratically. This is the only way to take true control of our future. With regard to coastal revenues, arrangements are in place that particular councils here participate in. We would hope that those arrangements would continue if this matter were to be devolved to the Executive because certain councils derive considerable income from those arrangements. Tá an-áthas orm an leasú seo a mholadh, agus iarraim tacaíocht an Tionóil dó. I ask the House to support our amendment.

Simon Hamilton (DUP, Strangford)

After our brief diversion to the moon, I suspect that perhaps some people watching this think that some in this House are wired to the moon, to use the local parlance.

William Humphrey (DUP, Belfast North)

I am grateful to the Member for giving way. Is the Member aware — the House should be aware — that the first man to set foot on the moon was from Ulster extraction and was an Ulster Scot?

Simon Hamilton (DUP, Strangford)

Well, there we go. That is a useful piece of information that we have all gleaned this afternoon, and I thank the Member for that. [Laughter.]

John Dallat (Social Democratic and Labour Party, East Londonderry)

Order, please. I encourage Members not to develop that theory and to stick to the subject.

Simon Hamilton (DUP, Strangford)

I am going to forgo, because I fear that others will elaborate more, the opportunity to concentrate my remarks on the obvious and blatant attack that this is on all things the Crown and British. It was implicit in the speech of the mover of the motion and a bit more explicit, I fear, in the speech of the mover of the amendment that this is about de-coupling Northern Ireland from the Crown and altering, by various means, the constitutional relationship —

William Humphrey (DUP, Belfast North)

Will the Member give way?

Simon Hamilton (DUP, Strangford)

No, I will not give way — between Northern Ireland and the rest of the United Kingdom. I will forego the opportunity to talk about that, because I fear that others will elaborate on it much more than I am doing.

I did not know that the mover of the motion, Mr McMullan, was such an avid royal watcher. It must be a mere coincidence that he brings forward this motion to the House on the very day that Her Majesty’s Government are publishing the biggest reform in 250 years of the way the royal family is funded. I did not know that he was such an avid royal watcher. Perhaps he is the Jenny Bond of Sinn Féin. However, he has picked today, which by a mere happy coincidence is the day of the publication of —

Francie Molloy (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

Will the Member give way?

Simon Hamilton (DUP, Strangford)

No, I will not give way — the Sovereign Grant Bill in Westminster. That Bill proposes to change how the royal family is funded away from the Civil List to a new system whereby the income that they receive as a family is pegged to the profits of the Crown Estate. So, here were are, we never talk about the Crown Estate and then, all of a sudden, we have a debate in here today, and on that very day a change is proposed to the way the royal family is funded to take account of profits from the Crown Estate.

Oliver McMullan (Sinn Féin, East Antrim)

Will the Member give way?

Simon Hamilton (DUP, Strangford)

No, I will not; I want to elaborate on that point. This is the first major reform in 250 years. I do not want to get into debate about whether the estimated £34 million that the royal family will receive is enough to do them. I have no experience of living how the royals do. I would happily live for —

Francie Molloy (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. Surely this is a distraction from the motion, and the Member knows fine well that it is the Business Committee that sets the date for when a motion will be debated here, not the Members themselves.

John Dallat (Social Democratic and Labour Party, East Londonderry)

I encourage all sides of the House, please, to return to the motion.

Simon Hamilton (DUP, Strangford)

I accept that it is a fairly long-winded point, but I am getting to the point. The palace and the Treasury have negotiated a new way for funding the royal family based on the profits of the Crown Estate. The Chancellor of the Exchequer, George Osborne, is quoted as saying that he has dealt with this to ensure that:

“my successors do not have to return to this issue as often as I have had to.”

That is a euphemism for long, painful, protracted negotiations having taken place between Treasury and the palace to agree this. There is no incentive for the palace to open up negotiations on its profits if what it takes in is dependent on the profits of the Crown Estate. There is no way that the Treasury will do it for £1 million from Northern Ireland. So, the whole basis of taking back money from the Crown Estate to Northern Ireland will not work in the context of the Bill that has been published today in Westminster.

We are all very familiar with the weird and wacky revenue-stream ideas that Sinn Féin keeps producing. Nobody, least of all me, will underestimate the value of even the £400,000 that Mr McMullan spoke about, but are we seriously going to now talk to the Treasury and others about that £400,000? Are we going to focus on the supposed £400,000 that the Member is talking about, or do we want to talk to the Treasury about corporation tax? Let us get clear about this. What is the big picture here? Is that less important than what the Member is talking about?

There is also a point to be made about the circular movement of public money. Much of the money that the Crown Estate gets from Northern Ireland comes from the ratepayers of Northern Ireland. For example, I know that Ards Borough Council pays about £30,000 over a period of years to lease various beaches. If this hare-brained idea actually comes to fruition and we were able to get that money back, why would we take it into the centre here in the Assembly and not give it back to local councils, which are feeling pressure to spend on their ratepayers?

When we are talking about the bigger picture of whether we want to discuss with the Treasury the £400,000 from the Crown Estate revenue or the benefits of corporation tax, let us not lose sight of the bigger picture of offshore renewables. If the Crown Estate is making a profit from the leasing of seabeds and, to use the Member’s own word, it is so “lucrative” and profitable, why would the Crown Estate want to give up that revenue and hand it back to Northern Ireland? There is no incentive for that, and if we mess around in the way that the Member is proposing, there is every chance that the opportunity that we have to capitalise on offshore renewables and the huge potential that exists around his constituency and other Members’ constituencies will be lost.

It is time to stop chasing moonbeams. This is a moonbeam — we are back to the moon again. We are chasing after nonsense and losing sight of the bigger picture. Get real; this sort of stuff has no place in this Assembly. We should not be discussing taking money off the Crown in a way that will antagonise elements of our community. We need to stop messing about and focus on the bigger picture, which is the potential of offshore renewables.

John Dallat (Social Democratic and Labour Party, East Londonderry)

Will the Member draw his remarks to a close, please?

Simon Hamilton (DUP, Strangford)

Thank you very much.

John Dallat (Social Democratic and Labour Party, East Londonderry)

The Business Committee has arranged to meet immediately upon the lunchtime suspension. I propose, therefore, by leave of the Assembly to suspend the sitting until 2.00 pm. The first item of business when we return will be Question Time.

The sitting was suspended at 12.32 pm.

On resuming (Mr Speaker in the Chair) —

Agriculture and Rural Development

Judith Cochrane (Alliance, Belfast East)

1. asked the Minister of Agriculture and Rural Development for an update on her Department’s flood prevention plans. (AQO 574/11-15)

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

My Department focuses on three key areas: prevention, protection and preparedness. First, we aim to prevent flooding damage by providing advice to the public and the Department of the Environment’s Planning Service. That enables informed decisions to be taken and avoids building in areas at risk from flooding. Secondly, we provide protection to existing property at flood risk through the ongoing maintenance of the existing drainage and flood defences and, where viable, the construction of new defences. Thirdly, we prepare for flooding by working with key organisations to develop the flood risk management plans and a co-ordinated response to flood emergencies. Those three key areas of work have been translated into specific key targets in the annual business plans of the Rivers Agency, which are subject to scrutiny by me, the Department and the Agriculture and Rural Development Committee.

Judith Cochrane (Alliance, Belfast East)

I thank the Minister for her answer. Although I appreciate that there is interagency work at a strategic level, it is often the case that, when a constituent reports a flooding problem to the Rivers Agency, the Roads Service or NI Water, none of those bodies will take responsibility. Does the Minister agree that any investigation into a flooding incident should involve all three agencies jointly, given that their networks are interconnected?

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

Go raibh maith agat. I thank the Member for her supplementary question. Absolutely; that is spot on if we are serious about tackling, in the long term, the problems that people consistently face. Yesterday was another example of how flash flooding can affect areas that have been identified with the problem. The Fermanagh task force was a key example of how agencies come together to improve the situation. Therefore, interagency work should be key to how we tackle all those problems.

Gregory Campbell (DUP, East Londonderry)

Is the Minister aware that there is a very effective flood prevention system in place at Ballykelly camp, which should assist in her deliberations about where she should locate the new DARD headquarters?

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

I do not know whether to thank the Member for his question or not. However, thank you for the information about the flood alleviation scheme. As I have said consistently, DARD headquarters will be considered in the round. It is not relevant to the question.

Phil Flanagan (Sinn Féin, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. I thank the Minister for teeing up a question for me.

Given yesterday’s serious flooding right across Fermanagh as a result of the unprecedented heavy rain that was, somehow, forecast, will the Minister give an update on the recommendations that were contained in the Fermanagh flooding task force report?

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

I thank the Member for his question. Obviously, yesterday was a particularly difficult day. The Rivers Agency received 150 calls, and around 60 properties were affected by the floods. We had 180 staff deployed with sandbags. I am glad to report that river levels have fallen today, and we continue to investigate all the incidents that occurred.

Fermanagh was a major issue, and we have seen the establishment of the flooding task force. My Department is responsible for implementing two of the task force’s key recommendations. First, with regard to the management of the Erne system, the Rivers Agency is working with the Electricity Supply Board to examine options for improvement to the operational regime that will, hopefully, reduce the flood risk in future. That detailed work is due to be completed in the next financial year, and, if changes to the operational regime are recommended, they will need to be consulted on and taken forward. I want to ensure that stakeholders have every opportunity to influence any changes.

The second key recommendation relates to the consideration of options for a flood alleviation scheme at the Derrychara link. Having considered the situation, the Roads Service and my Rivers Agency have co-operated closely to provide a pump system at Derrychara link in the event of high lough levels. The Rivers Agency has also completed the work on the Killynure Lough drain to further help contain flows. We are progressing a lot of the work that was set out in the task force’s recommendations, and we hope to have them implemented as quickly as possible.

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

Question 9 has been withdrawn and requires a written answer.

Joe Byrne (Social Democratic and Labour Party, West Tyrone)

Will the Minister outline what preparation has been put in place by the Rivers Agency to ensure that enough sandbags are stored at depots? Secondly, will there be any compensation for the unfortunate victims whose houses have been flooded?

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

Thank you for the supplementary question. The Rivers Agency deployed 5,500 sandbags yesterday, so, obviously, we were equipped to deal with what happened. I do not think that there is an identified problem there.

Compensation is not something that I considered yesterday. We are still cleaning up from what happened yesterday and having full investigations of the problems. Subsequently, where possible, we will, hopefully, be able to identify programmes of improvement that we can take forward. Compensation is not within the remit of the Rivers Agency.

Michael Copeland (UUP, Belfast East)

I thank the Minister for her flowing answers. I thank her also for the substantial amount of money that her Department has apportioned to flood alleviation works in east Belfast. That work was to take place in conjunction with another project that has not progressed at the speed that had been anticipated. Can she assure us of the current status of her commitment to that work and to that budget?

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

Belfast City Council is the employing authority, and it is in negotiations with the contractor. Those negotiations are ongoing, and we have to await their outcome before we can decide the next step. If no agreement is reached, there will still be a commitment from DARD and the Rivers Agency to continue with that flood alleviation scheme. It is a recognised priority. If the negotiations do not have a successful outcome, we will have to consider what alternative methods of delivery are available to take forward the scheme.

Some £500,000 has been set aside for 2011-12. Three hundred and eighty five thousand pounds of that has been spent, and the remainder has been set aside for continuing works that will, hopefully, take place. We have also set aside an additional £500,000 within annually managed expenditure, so there is still an absolute commitment to take forward a scheme that is very much needed.

John McCallister (UUP, South Down)

2. asked the Minister of Agriculture and Rural Development to outline the legislation currently in place in relation to the microchipping of dogs for export. (AQO 575/11-15)

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

The legislation governing the export of commercial dogs to another member state is the Animals and Animal Products (Import and Export) Regulations 2006, as amended. The legislation requires that the commercial movement of dogs is in line with the requirements of Council directive 92/65 and, specifically in relation to identification, in line with EC regulations 998/2003. Article 4 of that regulation requires dogs to be identified by means of a microchip or a clearly readable tattoo applied before 3 July 2011. From 3 July, therefore, any newborn dogs that are to be exported to another member state will have to be microchipped.

In cases in which dogs are being exported to third countries, the conditions of the export health certificate that have been negotiated with that country will have to be complied with. Those conditions may include the identification by microchip, tattoo or some other distinguishing mark.

John McCallister (UUP, South Down)

I am grateful to the Minister for her reply. Is the Minister aware of many local dog breeders’ concerns that future changes to microchipping requirements in other countries may jeopardise future export markets?

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

In my capacity as an MLA, I have met dog breeders who have expressed those concerns. I intend to bring forward dog breeding legislation in the near future, but I will have to go out to consultation again to seek the views of dog breeders. If it is a competitive market, we do not want to disadvantage local dog breeders in any way. There will be full consultation on the way forward. One of the proposals in that consultation will be that all pups should also be microchipped.

Mickey Brady (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

I think the Minister has answered the question that I was going to ask, which was whether she intended to amend the dog breeding legislation to make it a requirement for all pups to be microchipped.