Northern Ireland Assembly, 13 December 2011

286 contributions from 68 members. The official report.

Jim Allister (Traditional Unionist Voice, North Antrim)

On a point of order, Mr Speaker. We are about to hear a statement on what has been billed as the most important reform of the health service for maybe a generation or more. It is anticipated that Members then engage in discussion about that, yet Members received this 150-page document in their pigeonhole at only 9.55 am today. How can the House have an intelligent and informed discussion about these important matters given the paucity of notice and the lack of opportunity even to read the full report before we get to the point of engaging with it?

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

I thank the Member for his point of order. I am sure that the Minister will explain the position when he gets up to deliver his statement and explain to the House the lateness of the document. Let us move on.

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

I will deal with that point: it is because I have respect for the House that the House hears the report first as opposed to someone getting it and leaking it to the media or the press. I am responsible to this House first and foremost, and that will always be the case.

I wish to make a statement to the Assembly on the very important matter of the review of health and social care services in Northern Ireland. Health and social care touches us all in one way or another. Every family in the Province interfaces with the sector. I know that this report has been anxiously awaited by many.

I believe that this is the most important statement that I have made or am likely to make to the House in respect of our health and social care system. It is of relevance to every man, woman and child, and it is something in relation to which we as Members of the Executive and the Assembly are duty-bound to act collectively and responsibly to ensure that we do the best we can with the resources available to us to provide safe and effective health and social care services for all the citizens of Northern Ireland.

The report, which has been distributed to Members today, contains compelling proposals for the future of health and social care services in Northern Ireland. At the outset, I thank John Compton for leading the work, the independent panel members for their challenging and thoughtful contributions, the support team, which has worked so hard to produce the report to a very demanding timetable, and everyone who contributed comment or input through meetings, discussions and correspondence.

In setting my vision for the future of health and social care services in Northern Ireland, my overriding concern is to drive up the quality of care for clients and patients, improve outcomes and make sure that patients and clients of our services have the best possible experience in every aspect of their care. A key aspect of that, of course, is promoting prevention and early intervention measures, with the overarching objective of avoiding unnecessary hospital admissions in the first place.

I recognise fully the need for greater productivity from the resources available to us, particularly in these times of austerity. It is in that context that I firmly believe that the greater involvement of front-line professionals in decision making and service development is essential.

Again, I have expressed from the outset my belief that local commissioning has a crucial and powerful role to play in driving change and innovation. I want to see a shift in care currently carried out in hospitals into the community, with patients being treated in the right place, at the right time, by the right people.

My priorities have also been clear: we need to improve and protect health and well-being and reduce inequalities through a focus on prevention and earlier intervention. I welcome the commitment that has been given to improving public health in the Executive’s draft Programme for Government.

We need to improve services and outcomes for patients, clients and carers. We need to be responsive to the modern world and develop more innovative, accessible and responsive services, promoting choice and making more services available in the community. We need to involve individuals, communities and the independent sector in the design, delivery and evaluation of health and social care services through strengthened local commissioning. We need to improve productivity by ensuring the effective and efficient allocation and utilisation of all available resources, in line with priorities. We also need to ensure that, across all our services, the system looks after the most vulnerable in our society and the children, who are the future of this country. To effect that, we need to stop doing things that do not work, challenge out-of-date practices and acknowledge that some of our services and their design are no longer fit for purpose. The voluntary and community sector also has a very important role to play in providing services and improved service delivery, and we need to do all we can to remove barriers and blockages that may hinder the optimisation of that contribution.

It was in the context of that vision and the need to secure safe and effective services for all parts of Northern Ireland that I initiated a review of health and social care services. The purpose of the review was to examine the future provision of services, including our acute hospital configuration, the development of primary healthcare services and social care and the interface between sectors. There were very real concerns that our system was not sustainable to continue to meet the priorities, with consequences for patient care and safety.

My intention was to set a new reform agenda to give a stronger momentum for progress towards my vision and priorities for health and social care services for Northern Ireland. If the need for change was not clear to some before the review, they should read the review report, which paints a compelling picture of the need to reform. It makes it clear, on the basis of evidence and analysis, that the full range of health and social care services is unsustainable in its present form if we want to deliver the best outcomes for everyone and maintain the highest levels of quality and safety in service provision. In that respect, nothing has changed since I initiated this review; if anything, the need for change is even starker and more critical.

The evidence in the report is clear. As in other parts of the Western World, we face a combination of demographic change, with a growing and ageing population; increased demand and overreliance on hospital beds; advances in medicines and technology; and rising public expectations. The projected demographic changes alone are striking. Northern Ireland has a population of 1·8 million people. It is the fastest-growing population in the UK and continues to grow. By 2020, the number of people over 75 years of age will have increased by 40%. The population of 85-year-olds is expected to increase by almost 20% by 2014 and by 58% by 2020. The system cannot stand alone in the face of such change, particularly in the context of a difficult financial and economic climate. The review is not and cannot be about cost-cutting: it is about quality, accessibility and the safety of patient care. However, as the financial situation tightens, as is, obviously, the case for all public services, there needs to be a radical shift in where and how money is used. I will say more on that shortly.

In my statement to the House on 27 September 2011, I said that I believed that the Assembly was committed to the three key principles of the NHS model of universal care, namely that it is generally free at the point of delivery; is funded by taxation; and promises that the best available cost-effective treatments and services will be provided. I believe we can continue to deliver on those principles only if those who maintain the health service as we know it support a radical programme of service change and reconfiguration and act strongly and corporately in the interests of all of the people whom we serve, even if that means taking some difficult decisions. I initiated the review knowing that there would be difficult decisions to take in the context in which we all operate. However, I made it clear when I took the health portfolio that I would not shy away from difficult decisions where it meant that a better service would be provided to the people of Northern Ireland. Indeed, it would be irresponsible of me not to do so in light of the very real issues that face the health service and the increasingly difficult economic context.

The proposals in the review team’s report, ‘Transforming Your Care’, represent a radical change to the way that health and social care services are currently delivered. That change is long overdue. I believe that it will be good and will provide a more citizen-focused, sustainable and effective health service. The evidence that the review team has collected thoroughly speaks for itself. The vast majority of people feel that improvements are necessary.

The review team has developed proposals on the shape of a future model for integrated health and social care. I believe that those proposals, which I will outline, provide the best model to allow us to continue to deliver on the core values of our health service. On developing that model, the review team considered and assessed existing arrangements for the delivery of health and social care services here and looked at alternative models of delivery. It assessed those in the context of specific requirements in Northern Ireland. In line with my expressed wishes, the review team undertook an extensive programme of engagement with key stakeholders and the public, to which more than 3,000 people contributed. On the basis of that assessment and taking account of the views of stakeholders, the review team concluded that there was an unassailable case for change. I agree with that conclusion.

I believe that the model that has been developed by the review team and endorsed by the independent expert panel that I appointed to support the review is a sustainable model that will deliver a different, improved, citizen-focused and safe service for us all. The review has identified existing opportunities to do things better. We have an advantage over other parts of the UK in already having an integrated system of health and social care. The review’s recommendations exploit that advantage to develop a new model of integrated health and social care for the future.

The proposed future model puts the individual at the centre and not the institution. It supports individuals in caring for themselves and making good health choices. For many people, health and social care services will be increasingly accessible in their local area. Although that may not seem different, it is the way in which health professionals work together to deliver those services that will be different. They will work together in a much more integrated way to plan and deliver consistently high-quality care for patients.

It is proposed that integrated care partnerships will be set up to join together the full range of health and social care services in their area. Patients will have to deal with fewer professionals and will be at the centre of decision making about their treatment. There will be a significant shift from the provision of services in hospitals to provision in the community, in GP surgeries and closer to home where it is safe and effective to do so. Service providers will regard home as the hub and will be enabled to ensure that people can be cared for at home, including at the end of life. More support will also be available at home. Where specialist hospital care is required, it will be available, and patients will be discharged into the care of local services as soon as their health and care needs permit. The review proposes that an urgent care model will be implemented in every area to provide 24/7 access to urgent care services.

One aspect of the review in which, I know, there will be significant interest is current hospital provision and its future role. In line with the basic objectives of the review, it is proposed that hospitals will work as a system, with each facility contributing to the provision of total services to its population. The approach to specifying a function for each hospital will be a bottom-up approach designed by local populations and professional practitioners within the parameters set by the review. The review team has commented that all current hospitals will play an integral role in the delivery of services to their locality. They will be essential to contributing to what a local population requires from a hospital service. That will mean changes in all sites over a five-year period, with the final functionality based on population need and the principles set out in the report. Engagement at a local level with local commissioning groups will inform the services provided in each area. A key aspect of that approach is that clinical staff will be employed to work in a hospital system. They will be a resource for each population, working as necessary across hospital services and facilities.

We have 10 acute hospitals in Northern Ireland serving a population of 1·8 million. That contrasts with other areas of the UK with similar-sized populations; for example, urban areas of Great Britain that are supported by maybe fewer than half that number. Our aim must be to provide resilient, sustainable and safe services. We need to have a focus on individuals, patient care and safety and not on buildings or institutions. We should not ask the public to accept services if we cannot provide assurance that they are safe, resilient and sustainable. It is in that strategic context that the review envisages that, by 2016-17, the model of major acute hospitals for Northern Ireland’s more dispersed population would reconfigure to a more appropriate scale. Clearly, that will mean changes at sites, but the key test for any future configuration must be sustainability and resilience in clinical terms.

The review recommends that each local commissioning group should draw up proposals and take account of the potential to provide services to the Republic of Ireland on the basis of the analyses in its report. The review concludes that it is only likely to be possible to provide resilient and sustainable acute services on between five and seven sites. That may prove to be the case — I cannot say at this stage — but the test will be one of clinical sustainability, resilience and patient safety. On that basis, we will be able to determine whether an acute hospital will be viable. That test is simply not optional in this new model of services, and, in my view, it should never have been optional.

I understand that, during the engagement on the review with stakeholders, concerns were often raised about the future provision of services for older people. Older people are significant users of health and social care services, and almost one fifth of the budget is allocated to services for them. Our services need to adapt to our ageing population to ensure that we can provide an appropriate level of services into the future. It is not surprising, therefore, that a significant section of the report is devoted to improving services for older people and for those with long-term conditions. The report highlights that home should be the hub of care for older people, with more services provided at home and in the community. The review makes recommendations to encourage independence and to avoid unnecessary hospital admissions, including the provision of a diverse choice of provision to meet the needs of older people and appropriate regulation and safeguarding to ensure quality and to protect the vulnerable.

The review contains a wide-ranging set of proposals across secondary, primary and community care. As well as examining acute care and services for older people, it includes proposals for improving services for those with a physical or learning disability, people using mental health services, maternity and child health, and family and child care. The proposed changes would require staff to develop different skills and capacities. Workforce planning and development is and will be a critical building block in ensuring that staff are appropriately trained and confident in their roles. Our workforce planning needs to focus on demand signals from the local health economy and patients and clients, rather than simply supply-side inputs. It needs to be linked to service planning and underpinned by robust financial plans, making it more robust and linked to patient needs.

The review recognises the scope for the greater use of technology as an enabler of the delivery of the new model of care. That resonates strongly with me, and I believe that there is considerable scope to exploit the opportunities that technology provides in the delivery of effective healthcare services. The statement that I made to the Assembly last week provided details on how we should develop Connected Health to improve patient care and to help support the economy.

As I said, the review is not about cost cutting. Nevertheless, in line with a shift of services closer to the home, it envisages a significant shift in the allocation of funding, and it coincides with the greatest financial challenge that the service has faced in many years. The days of increasing resources, year on year, are gone. The change in the model of delivery means that there will be a shift of care from hospital settings to the community, and there will be a shift in the resources as funds are reallocated in line with service delivery. It is envisaged that key changes would include more care delivered in the home; changing care packages for people in nursing homes; an increased role for GPs; an increase in the role of pharmacy in medicines management and prevention; increased use of community and social care services to meet people’s needs; and outreach of acute services into the community. Taking account of those changes, the review concludes that it is envisaged that, by 2014-15, there would be a shift of funding of around 5% or about £83 million from the hospital services budget to other services. In that model, there would be increases of around £21 million to personal and social services, around £21 million to family health services and primary care and around £41 million to community services by 2014-15. The figures provided by the review team are indicative, and, clearly, the proposed reallocations would be refined through detailed implementation planning work.

The changes will not be straightforward. They will require fundamental changes to the way in which we deliver services and will require substantial retraining of staff. It is in that context that the review recommends that transitional funding of around £25 million, £25 million and £20 million will be required in each of the next three years respectively to enable the new model of service to be implemented. The funding would help support integrated care partnerships, service changes and a voluntary early release scheme. It would be foolish of me or, indeed, any of us to believe that change of such a scale could be implemented without some cost. However, the costs identified are transitional and time-limited over three years. After that, there will be payback through more effective and efficient use of the resources that have already been allocated to our health service.

The review team has provided a wide-ranging set of proposals. In the coming weeks and months, those proposals will need to be translated into more detailed plans, setting out the specific changes to be taken forward. It will also be necessary to develop engagement plans for those changes, setting out how the changes will affect users, families and staff. The review has recommended that implementation and stakeholder engagement plans should be drawn up and published by June 2012. The plans will be based on population plans for each area, drawn up by each of the local commissioning groups with the health and social care trusts.

The proposals in the report will mean different things to different people, and that is to be expected. The proposals have been developed in the context of the evidence that was presented in the course of the review, and they provide a framework within which service reconfiguration can be taken forward. The challenge now is to ensure that we take forward the implementation of the review for the health and well-being of the people of Northern Ireland. This is the responsibility of all of us. I am determined that the review report does not sit on the shelf. Although I carry the portfolio for health, I have said before and will say again that every Minister is a Minister for health. It is not nor should it be the sole responsibility of one Minister. All our constituents look to each and every one of us to deliver safe and effective health and social care services. The next step will require leadership to be shown first by me but also by all of us, as elected Members of this Assembly, and by the health and social care sector. We need to chart, using the review as the basis, a road map for sustainable, effective and efficient provision for health and social care services into the future.

Members, I look to you today to support me in my proposals for reforming and modernising our health and social care system to ensure that we get the best from the resources available to us; to ensure that services are, where possible, brought closer to the patient’s home; and to ensure that patients are treated in the right place, at the right time and by the right people.

I repeat my thanks to John Compton and his team and to the five independent expert panel members for producing this substantial piece of work in a demanding timescale. I also pay tribute to every person who gave their time to contribute to the review over the past few months. I ask Members, those in the health and social care sector and the public to read the report carefully in the coming days and weeks. Change will need to be delivered through working together. As the review has set out clearly, it cannot be put off. We have had too many reviews of health and social care over recent years where little has happened. I am determined that we should not repeat the mistakes of the past, and we need to move forward now if we are to have a sustainable future for our health and social care services. I commend the statement to the House.

Michelle Gildernew (Sinn Féin, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

Go raibh míle maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. I welcome the statement. We have all been very anxious to get our hands on the report, and I assure you that, like other Members, I picked mine up in the pigeonhole this morning the same as everybody else.

The Compton report will have significant implications for the future of the health system not just in the North but in the border counties. The report clearly requires significant examination and scrutiny by us, by healthcare professionals, by the trade unions and by the public in general, and we will certainly take this report away and study it carefully. On initial examination, I see that there are areas that will cause obvious concern and other recommendations that will be less controversial and will be welcomed.

Recently, a number of reports have been produced detailing the state of healthcare across the island, and, going forward, there is clearly a need for a sensible all-Ireland approach to delivering healthcare for citizens. That approach will deliver not just significant efficiencies in these difficult economic times but better outcomes for patients. At the end of the process, we need to have a healthcare system that delivers for the needs of people and communities, is safe, accessible and efficient, and targets the inequalities — I know this is mentioned in the report — that give rise to ill health in certain sections of society. Those are the benchmarks by which we will judge the report.

I welcome the fact that more people will be supported to live at home, but could the Minister elaborate on how he intends to support their carers? We know that, whatever interface there is with the Department of Health, Social Services and Public Safety, people are often asked to care for others around the clock at home. The word “sustainability” is in his statement quite a number of times, but will he commit to the sustainability of services along the border and work with his counterpart in Dublin to ensure that services in hospitals near the border can be made sustainable?

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

The report makes it very clear that we want to see the home as the hub of care. Therefore, it is important to us that that care is provided at home. We recognise that, in many instances, carers can fall ill and can have problems because of the stress that is put on them. So, ensuring that respite is available for carers is important in ensuring that the health of the carer does not break down.

That is recognised in the report, and it is certainly something that we will look to deliver on.

I have agreed to conduct a mapping exercise of services that are available along the border. Sometimes, difficult times and difficult economic conditions enable people to make the best decisions. I suspect that, a few years ago, the Republic of Ireland would not have been that interested in acquiring services in Northern Ireland. I am quite open to the idea of the Republic of Ireland buying services in Northern Ireland, which will then enable us to sustain many of the services in our border hospitals. I do not have an issue with or a particular concern about that. I believe that that will be developed over the report’s lifetime.

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

Before I call Jim Wells to ask a question, I remind Members that there is a keen interest on all sides of the House in the statement. That is understandable because of its nature and importance. There is a full list of Members who wish to ask questions, so I urge you to keep your questions short, especially in relation to the statement. It is also very important that the questions relate to the statement, and, if we can achieve that from Members, we might also be able to achieve short answers from the Minister. It is important to encourage all of that.

Jim Wells (DUP, South Down)

I concur with the Minister that this is, perhaps, the most important report on health in a generation. Indeed, it is, perhaps, one of the most important reports that will come before the Assembly in this term. It is a pity that that has not been reflected in the turnout by Members opposite. If you take out the Health Committee members and a few others, you will see that there are very few Members here on that side. That is highly regrettable and indicates how much they care about health service provision in Northern Ireland in the future.

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

I ask the Member to come to his question.

Jim Wells (DUP, South Down)

The Minister is aware that there has been a series of reports on health provision in Northern Ireland. There has been the Appleby report, the Hayes report and ‘Developing Better Services’. Many of those gathered dust. Can the Minister inform the Assembly why he felt it was appropriate at this time to initiate such a major review? Can he give us a guarantee that this report will not gather dust?

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

I thank the Member for his question, and I take your gracious rebuke, Mr Speaker, in the way that it was expressed.

The report itself sets out the reasons why it has been published and why it has been published now. One of the reasons is that the elderly population, which requires more and more services, is growing. By 2020, the number of over-75s will have grown by 40%, and the number of over-85s will have grown by 58%. Seventy-five per cent of people over the age of 75 have chronic conditions, so they need additional support. Year on year, the growth requirements in health are 4%, while our budget is 2%, so, leaving inflation to one side, there are serious challenges.

The review has been brought out not as an excuse to do nothing but as a model to get on with the task. I wanted to have the panel of experts provide their thoughts on the way forward. The report will not gather dust; it will gather momentum. It will go out for the trusts to start to implement very quickly, and we will encourage that.

John McCallister (UUP, South Down)

I welcome the report, which has been anxiously awaited on these Benches. The Minister rightly mentioned the transitional costs, which are present when you go to change anything. He puts those at £25 million, £25 million and £20 million. Does he have the money in his budget to meet those extra costs, or will he seek money from DFP to fund that?

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

In the first instance, I will seek money from DFP, and I hope that that will be forthcoming. If it is not, we will need to find the money in the system to ensure that this moves forward.

Kieran McCarthy (Alliance, Strangford)

The statement is very important and long-awaited. People should take time to read and digest it properly rather than rushing to immediate positions. I welcome the Minister’s commitment to care in the community. The Minister will know that I have spoken loudly about the elderly and people with learning disabilities and mental health —

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

Will the Member put his question?

Kieran McCarthy (Alliance, Strangford)

It is essential, Mr Speaker, that funding follows care in the community. It is all right to have fine words and speeches, but, at the end of the day, older people and people who need —

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

I insist that the Member come to his question.

Kieran McCarthy (Alliance, Strangford)

Will the Minister assure the Assembly that funding will follow the most vulnerable?

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

Perhaps less noise and more listening would help the Member. It has already been delivered in the statement that we are looking at shifting £80 million from the hospital sector to the community sector. How much clearer can we be? It is already in the statement.

Paula Bradley (DUP, Belfast North)

I also thank the Minister for his much-needed and welcome statement. It appears that there will be a greater onus on the five local commissioning groups in delivering this agenda. What interaction has the Minister had with those groups, and does he feel that they are equipped to deal with the challenges ahead?

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

I met the commissioning groups quite recently, and they want greater authority to move things forward. The commissioning groups were set up after the trusts and, to an extent, have had some difficulty in showing their teeth. I encourage the commissioning groups, which have a local dimension, to show their teeth and to demonstrate the type of services that need to be acquired to meet the needs of our communities. They should not be driven simply by the demands of trusts or, indeed, hospitals.

Mickey Brady (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. This question may be regarded as getting retaliation in first, but in your statement, Minister, you say of hospital sites:

“the key test for any future service configuration has to be sustainability and resilience in clinical terms.”

You also talk about local commissioning groups taking:

“account of the potential to provide services to the Republic … on the basis of the analyses in its report.”

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

I urge the Member to come to his question.

Mickey Brady (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

Daisy Hill Hospital, which the Health Committee visited last week, ticks all the boxes for all the criteria. Will the Minister ensure that hospitals in border areas such as Daisy Hill, which ticks all the boxes, will be regarded favourably in any decision of his on the reconfiguration of sites?

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

Key to the services provided in a hospital are the following three things: safety, sustainability and resilience. I will not support a service that does not meet all three of those aspects. That also applies to the community. Therefore, we need to be assured that the community can get to the hospital safely, sustainably and resiliently. For those who live a considerable distance from a hospital, we have to ensure that the time it takes and the services provided to them are safe, sustainable and resilient. When they get to the hospital, it also needs to be safe, sustainable and resilient.

A course of work done in Scotland, where distances are much greater, would be interesting reading for Members. You are four times as likely to have a successful outcome in a trauma situation going to the appropriate hospital as you are going to the nearest hospital. Therefore, frankly, if you have been involved in a major trauma incident, it may be safer to travel past your nearest hospital to the appropriate hospital. Members should reflect on that, because that is what the outcomes are, and we want the best outcomes for our public.

Gordon Dunne (DUP, North Down)

I thank the Minister for his leadership on the review. How can you assure GPs that they will not simply be lumbered with extra work for little return?

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

My view is that GPs are critical to the delivery of our services. Some things happened in the past that perhaps undermined the work that GPs do. The out-of-hours system does not work as well as we would like, and that needs to be challenged. However, GPs will benefit. The review suggests an indicative reallocation of £21 million to FHS and primary care, which is a 3% increase on the allocation that would have been available.

We want to have more integrated teams working together in a holistic way. We want GPs to work with podiatrists to prevent falls by older people; with dieticians to deal with people with diabetes; and with physiotherapists to deal with people who have chest problems — all in a much more integrated way. When people have multiple problems, we want to have multidisciplinary teams working together in the primary care sector and setting to avoid hospital admissions and, more importantly, to deliver considerably better outcomes for patients.

David McNarry (UUP, Strangford)

There are 207,000 registered carers in Northern Ireland, with 67 added to that number annually. As the Minister knows, they save us around £4·4 billion. In highlighting, as he has today, that the home should be the hub of care for older people and, I assume, those with learning disabilities, what protection is he offering the carer at home, today and tomorrow?

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

Carers are absolutely critical. I dealt with that point when I responded to the Chair of the Committee. However, we are looking at how we can provide appropriate respite for carers. I want to make one thing clear: most of us will have relatives who are elderly or suffer from some form of disability. Particularly when it comes to relatives, the public — the community — have a responsibility to provide care for them. I do not expect the Government to do everything for my elderly relatives; I have a contribution to make. When I was a child, they looked after me. When they are elderly and need help, I would like to think that we will be there for them. Carers in general are not looking for something, but many of them need help, support and respect and to be part of the system. We want to ensure that carers are part of the team that makes decisions on how best to look after people. It is important that carers get appropriate respite so that they can get a break.

We are also looking at developing packages so that older people can take control of their own finances. Instead of having four 15-minute visits in a day, when someone rushes in and gets an older person up to the toilet, gets them their breakfast and goes away again, they could buy in a package that is appropriate to their needs and is done in conjunction with their family. That may involve the family as the carers who receive the finances for that package.

Michaela Boyle (Sinn Féin, West Tyrone)

Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. I also thank the Minister for his statement. Minister, you said that our constituents look to us to deliver safe and effective health and social care services. I am conscious that I have a constituent who will ask me about the report and will ask where it says that a reduction in hospital waiting times for operations will be addressed. I ask the Minister how that will be addressed.

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

The reduction in hospital waiting times will be facilitated by changing the model. Removing people from hospitals who should not be there in the first place through better management of their condition is an important element in supporting our hospitals. Ensuring that we have hospitals that deliver elective services, care and surgery without the disturbance of emergency care is another key element of that.

Reconfiguration and reorganisation is absolutely critical to what the Member asks. Given the demands that are coming and the budget that we have, the choice is either to reorganise and restructure or to reduce. I am in the first category: I want to reorganise and restructure. That is what the report is about and what I am about. Sometimes the delivery of that will not be to everybody’s liking. Sometimes it will cause some pain, but, if we get to a better destiny, that is what is important.

Pam Lewis (DUP, South Antrim)

I thank the Minister for his critical statement. How will the average Northern Ireland citizen and taxpayer benefit from the implementation of the review?

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

The average citizen will benefit because we currently spend £4•6 billion on health and social care. I think it is around £2,700 or £2,800 for every man, woman and child in Northern Ireland. Given the investment that we are making in health, we need to ensure that we get the best value for money out of it. We need to ensure that the resources that we expend are not wasted. If we can avoid people with long-term conditions going to hospital and allow them to be treated in their own home and community and have better outcomes at the same time, the individual gets better care and we as a public body spend our money better. It is a win-win situation for both the patient and the general public.

Oliver McMullan (Sinn Féin, East Antrim)

Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. I welcome the Minister’s statement. Minister, you said that there would be more co-operation and more use of GP services. Could that mean that we will see more co-operation at a local level between GPs and consultants, therefore cutting down on hospital appointments, especially in rural areas?

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

Yes we can. We are looking at integrated partnerships for GPs. GPs will be working as part of an implementation planning exercise. The report indicates that there should be an increased share for family health services and primary care. We want the GPs working on the integrated health partnerships. We will have 17 of them across the Province. GPs will also be expected to reach a standard of quality. That is absolutely important. Often they will have to work in partnership with others to reach the expected standard of quality.

Paul Givan (DUP, Lagan Valley)

I welcome the focus on the individual and the outcomes for the individual in the Minister’s statement. Will he elaborate on how the integrated care partnerships will operate? In particular, what role will there be for the independent sector, and how will the patient be put at the centre of decision-making?

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

The partnerships are an important component of the recommendations for the future model of integrated health and social care. They will join together the full range of health and social care services in each area, which includes GPs, community health and social care providers, hospital specialists and representatives from the independent and voluntary sector. They will have a role in determining the needs of local populations and planning and delivering integrated services. The review recommended that there should be 17 such partnerships. For the individual, that would mean that GPs and all other health and social care providers in the area, including the voluntary and community sector, will be able to work together to deliver the services needed by their local population. As the review of local government looks at community planning, I see that as absolutely critical in the overall delivery of the report.

Trevor Lunn (Alliance, Lagan Valley)

I also welcome the report. There is a reference in the report and in the Minister’s statement to an expanded role for community pharmacy, which is very welcome. I appreciate that the Minister may be constrained by the current judicial process, but does he agree with me that there may be a need to revisit the decisions that have been made on community pharmacy in light of that strong recommendation?

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

As the Member knows, the judicial review findings on the previous Minister’s decisions will be announced on 21 December. In relation to community pharmacies, I do not see the key role of a pharmacist as being paid to dispense pills. I think more of our pharmacists than that. They have a skill, training and an ability to play a far more important role in the delivery of services, ensuring that people can remain in their community, assisting elderly people to remain in their home and helping us to avoid hospital admissions. I see a fundamentally changing role for pharmacists. As soon as the court case is over, I will want to get into discussions and negotiations with pharmacists on how we move forward in a way that delivers the best services to the community and is sustainable for pharmacists at the same time.

Tom Buchanan (DUP, West Tyrone)

I, too, welcome the Minister’s statement. As he will be aware, change always brings an element of fear. How does he respond to the fear in communities that the Department will impose change on them without adequate local engagement?

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

The trusts will be responsible for the delivery of the report. Those significant things will have to be consulted on in local communities. I hear what the Member says about change causing fear, and he is correct: people are often fearful of change. However, if you read the report, you will realise that doing nothing is far more frightening. Doing nothing will bring about change, but it will be the wrong kind of change; it will be the reduction of services. We do not have the resources to simply keep doing things that are not sustainable over and over again.

I say to Members that anything in life, whether in business or anything else, that does not change over time generally shrinks, shrivels up and dies. We need a health service that is flexible and adaptable, makes the best use of modern technology and responds to the work that pharmaceutical companies are doing to provide the best medicines for people and so on. We need to be slick in our movement and our ability to adapt to meet all that. This is where we are going, and change will happen. I hope that, after the report works out, that change will be viewed as positive as opposed to negative.

Jennifer McCann (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. I thank the Minister for his statement. I have not had a chance to read the report in any great detail. Will the Minister give us an indication of where the new women and children’s regional hospital at the Royal fits into the review?

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

It is not part of the review, but the women and children’s hospital will be in the new block that is being built. As I recall, it will be opened in 2014, and work on it has been done. Credit to the previous Minister: he made the decision to move that forward. However, the biggest issue for me now where those types of facilities are concerned is identifying a funding process that can deliver a new children’s hospital in Northern Ireland. The condition of the current children’s hospital is an absolute disgrace, as is the fact that staff have to work in those conditions to provide complex care and treatment. It is absolutely incumbent on us to identify a way forward on that.

William Humphrey (DUP, Belfast North)

I thank the Minister for his statement. The Minister will be aware that early years is vital to young parents and families. Will the Minister outline whether the review deals with early years?

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

We see a clear way forward in the fact that, if we make interventions at that early point, we will get far more significant benefit. For example, for every pound spent in the early years, you will get a return of between 14% and 16% each year thereafter. Therefore, in a person’s lifetime, you will get three or four times the return that you put in.

We are finding that more and more children and young people are coming to our attention — I think that the figure has grown by around 40% or 50% in the past five years — and that is evidence that our social services side is getting better at the work that it does. So, it is important that we make interventions at that early point for very vulnerable children who are being brought up in homes where there is a lack of skill. It is also important that real benefit comes from that delivery. Multidisciplinary teams and social services working in close conjunction with GPs and so forth will help to ensure that that is the case.

George Robinson (DUP, East Londonderry)

I thank the Minister for his statement. What services does he intend to have carried out in a patient’s home?

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

Sorry, could you ask that again? [Interruption.]

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

Order. Allow the Member to repeat the question.

George Robinson (DUP, East Londonderry)

I would like — [Interruption.]

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

Order. Allow the Member to continue.

George Robinson (DUP, East Londonderry)

What services does the Minister intend should be carried out in the patient’s home?

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

I thank the Member for the question. I await the question from the SDLP with interest, Mr Speaker. [Interruption.]

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

Order. [Interruption.] Order. The Member should not point, either to the Chair or across the Floor. Allow the Minister to continue.

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

I note that there are only five SDLP Members in the Chamber. [Interruption.]

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

Order. That goes for all sides of the House. Allow the Minister to continue.

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

SDLP Members have yet to ask a question, so that demonstrates their interest in health and social care.

With regard to care provided at home, we have considerable numbers of older people, people with learning disabilities and people with mental health problems for whom more services can be provided at home. We have not touched on mental health issues thus far. One of the things that is highlighted in the report in respect of mental health is that some care can be provided at home by visiting psychiatrists. It does not always work well in mental health when an appointment is made for someone to come to hospital: often they do not turn up. Therefore, there can be more effective care in this way.

As regards a future model for integrated health and social care, we see individual self-care as an important element. Over the next six years, we will roll out a telemonitoring scheme to 20,000 homes. Last week, I visited a gentleman who had attended Antrim Area Hospital around six times each year and was admitted three times each year for about a week. Since we introduced telemonitoring, in the past year, he has not been once to Antrim hospital. Therefore, excellent monitoring of conditions and early intervention when vital signs show some distress can lead to considerably fewer hospital admissions and a cost-effective regime that delivers for the patient.

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

Before I call Mervyn Storey, I see that some Members may have a problem. Usually, when for whatever reason a Minister has not heard a question, I have asked the Member, whatever side of the House he sits on, to repeat that question. There is nothing wrong with that. The convention is clear. Members should not point to the Chair or point across the Room when they have some difficulty with that. Let us move on.

Mervyn Storey (DUP, North Antrim)

Thank you, Mr Speaker. I am glad that SDLP Members have not been tasked with reorganising the health service; they cannot reorganise how they submit questions to the House.

As the Minister knows, I serve a constituency that does not have acute hospital provision and is serviced by hospitals in other jurisdictions and constituencies. In the light of the statement, what is the inevitable outcome in regard to the future provision of services, particularly at the Causeway Hospital, which serves my North Antrim constituency?

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

Again, we go back to safety, sustainability and resilience. Decisions in the Member’s constituency will be taken by the Northern Health and Social Care Trust, which currently operates a two-site facility. It may desire to continue to do that. If so, it must ensure that having a two-site facility is safe, sustainable and resilient. If the trust decides to move to a model of one hospital for its area, ensuring that people get to that hospital must be done in a way that is safe, sustainable and resilient. If lives are threatened by the closure of a hospital, that will also be a challenge for the trust.

Maurice (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

I, too, thank the Minister for his comprehensive statement. With this report before us, it is regrettable that the SDLP and Sinn Féin show no interest in the future of the health service.

However, as the Minister has made it clear today that he does not want the report to be left sitting on the shelf and, indeed, he is determined that it will not be, can he tell the House what is the next step in this important process?

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

The report is being made public today, and people will take some time to digest it, hopefully not too much time. In the early part of the new year, trusts will look to how they will develop and action a lot of the work that is in this report. We see it being rolled out over a five-year period, so people need not be too worried that, in six months, everything will happen at once and it will be an absolute shock to the system. It has to be carried out in a way that enables things to carry on smoothly. To do that, we need to have the implementation plan in place and the clinical forum established so that we have good exchange with experts in the field and they can play their part in ensuring that we have the best possible healthcare system in Northern Ireland.

Jim Allister (Traditional Unionist Voice, North Antrim)

I want to return to the issue of acute provision. In one breath, the Minister tells us that it is a matter, for example, for the Northern Board, and, in the next, he tells us that his vision under the report is that the number of acute hospitals might fall as low as five. Assuming that one or two of those hospitals will be in Belfast, one will be in Londonderry and, presumably, one in the west, what about the rest of the Province, particularly the north of the Province? Could the Minister tell us frankly whether he believes the Causeway Hospital, which serves the upper part of north Antrim, will be an acute hospital in five years? Can he tell us frankly what his vision is in that regard?

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

I thank the Member for the question. If he had been in court, he would have just made a fool of himself. I never said that I had a vision for five acute hospitals in Northern Ireland. No good judge would have taken that on board, and it might have been dismissed out of hand.

I cannot say what exactly the future holds for the Causeway Hospital, or, indeed, for Daisy Hill Hospital, but what I can make very clear is that the service that has to be provided is safe, sustainable and resilient. Therefore, the care that is provided has to be quality care for the people of the north of the Province. We cannot have a service that does not meet those standards because that would be a second-rate service, and I am sure that the Member would not want a second-rate service for the constituents of North Antrim or East Londonderry. I am sure that he would not want the lives of people in that area put at risk because the services were not safe, sustainable and resilient. Therefore, it is up to the trusts to ensure that that is the case, and, if it is not the case, they will have to come forward with a different proposal. At this time, they clearly believe that that is the case, and, as that continues to be the case, the trusts will continue to operate as is. If they do not believe that that is the case, we need to see what their proposals are.

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

I call Mark Durkan. — [Interruption.]

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

Order.

Mark Durkan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

Thank you, Mr Speaker. I welcome the Minister’s statement and the much-awaited publication of the review and my long-awaited opportunity to ask a question on it. Let me assure the House of my party’s unwavering commitment to the health service and the need to improve it.

What are the implications of the review for staff and staffing numbers right across the sector, including those caring in the community? What assurances can be given to those committed and caring professionals so that their morale is not adversely impacted?

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

My responsibility, first and foremost, is to the public. The HSC sector currently employs around 70,000 people, so we are the largest employer by a considerable margin in Northern Ireland. However, it is not my responsibility to create employment; it is my responsibility to deliver quality healthcare.

The review is not about redundancies or any of that type of stuff; it is about how we reorganise our services. Setting that to one side, there is a financial issue because the Budget that came from Westminster would not have allowed us to extend our health funding as far as we might have liked. There are, therefore, implications on that side.

We will seek to ensure that staff are treated with respect at all times, that they are made aware of issues at an early point and that they are properly consulted. We will seek to ensure that we move forward in that way. Thus far, we have avoided compulsory redundancies. Members must remember that, around this time last year, people were saying that there would be dire consequences in the health service, that we would reach chapter 11 administration and that 4,000 people would have to be paid off. None of those things has happened. Let us not raise unnecessary concerns. We will manage these situations, and we will not be introducing a vast array of compulsory redundancies in Northern Ireland as a consequence of the report. There will be some modest and moderate changes, but this is not something to cause huge concern among our staff.

Margaret Ritchie (Social Democratic and Labour Party, South Down)

The SDLP has always been unwavering in its support for health and social care provision, and we will not take lectures from the DUP on that.

Page 117 of the document states:

“All current hospitals will have an integral role in the delivery of services to their localities.”

Will the Minister spell out what the model will be for the new local hospital at the Downe Hospital, Downpatrick? How will services for Daisy Hill Hospital be configured on a North/South basis? What discussions have taken place with the Southern health authorities in relation to that matter?

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

I thank the Member for her four questions. She did not ask any for a long time, so I suppose she may as well ask plenty when she gets to the point. With regard to the Member’s parochial concerns, a new hospital was built in Downpatrick. The report states that that hospital, along with the other hospitals, has an integral role to play. It will be a matter for the South Eastern Trust, in negotiations with the HSC Board, to identify what role that hospital plays. There would not be much point in building a new facility and not using it.

The Member also asked about how we work with the South of Ireland. We have had discussions with counterparts in the South at ministerial and official level. I am very happy to work with them to provide the best possible services for people from either side of the border. If they are happy to pay for those services, we are happy to supply them.

Robin Swann (UUP, North Antrim)

I thank the Minister for his statement. In his statement, he indicated a greater role for local commissioning groups. What additional responsibilities does he envisage? Do they include a budgetary role?

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

The commissioning groups have an important role to play. As I indicated to another Member, they need to have a greater role as we move forward in working with local communities to identify local needs and to translate those into the services that are provided. We need to have greater community identification of the services, the needs and what should be provided. That is where the local commissioning groups can provide that level of expertise.

Conall McDevitt (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast South)

The expert group makes 99 proposals for change, but there are only two numbers in those 99 proposals. Let me ask for some leadership from the Minister this morning. Proposal 10 recommends:

“A major reduction in residential accommodation for older people, over the next five years.”

By how much will that be reduced? When does the Minister expect that reduction to take place?

Proposal 73 states:

“Over time, move to a likely position of five to seven major acute hospital networks in Northern Ireland.”

Which will it be? Will it be seven or five?

Proposal 84 recommends:

“Targets to reduce the level of inappropriate hospital admissions for people in the dying phase of an illness.”

What targets? When will we see them?

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

I thank the Member for his question. First, he asked about residential homes. We are making it clear that the residential home for people that we envisage in the future is their own home, not some care home, and we want to enable people to stay in their own home. I do not know anybody who wants to move out of their own home into residential care, but many people have to and are forced to. We need to provide a model that ensures that those people can stay in their own home. That will be the driver, because we will not have the requirement for those facilities.

With regard to the reduction from seven to five, the report said that that would be the likely outcome. Again, I go back to safe, sustainable and resilient. Those are the tests, and that will be the demonstration of it. We will ensure that we provide safe, sustainable and resilient services across the piece.

As regards the care of people who are at the end of life, 28% of those who are admitted to hospital from a nursing home die within 48 hours. I will repeat that: 28% of people who are admitted to hospital from a nursing home die within 48 hours. I am not sure whether the Member thinks that that is a good thing. We want our nursing homes upskilled to provide that end-of-life care. I do not think that it is dignified or appropriate for someone who is near the end of their life to be taken from the nursing home where they have been provided with care for a number of years to a hospital A&E unit to be put through the trauma of the admission process, get into a hospital bed and die within the next 36 hours. I do not think that that is a dignified way to end your life, so I want to change that. I am not sure that the Member does, but he should reconsider.

Patsy McGlone (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Mid Ulster)

Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. I thank the Minister for his statement. In terms of safety, sustainability and resilience, the whole of Tyrone has been stripped of services. Omagh was stripped of A&E services by Bairbre de Brún and Magherafelt by Michael McGimpsey. The Minister placed emphasis on patient requirements and what patients should be demanding and expecting from the service. What assurances will he give to the people of those areas that the service will be improved? The Minister referred earlier to trauma instances. What assurances will he give that people in south Derry and Tyrone will not be jeopardised by the stripping of our services?

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

I thank the Member for his question. The SDLP is a bit like the buses: none comes along, and then they all appear at one time.

I have been attempting to undo some of the damage done in Tyrone and south Londonderry with the development of a new hospital in Omagh, which I announced recently. We are very committed to ensuring that that is delivered so that the people of Omagh have a quality health system in conjunction with the new hospital in the south-west. There are opportunities for getting to a better place in mid-Ulster, and the Mid-Ulster Hospital has a role to play in that. I would be happy to engage in discussions with representatives of that constituency on how we can deliver more services locally. I recognise the difficulties that there can be in getting to places such as Draperstown and Gortin and their distance from local services.

Willie Clarke (Sinn Féin, South Down)

Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. I thank the Minister for his statement. I looked through the report briefly and saw that one of the main subjects is preventative measures. How will more people be able to avail themselves of healthy food with high nutritional value, particularly those from areas of deprivation? What are his thoughts on people being able to afford healthy food?

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

My thoughts are very clear. Along a two-mile bus journey for someone who lives in Sandy Row, the Village or the Markets to Finaghy Road South and out towards Malone, life expectancy rises by nine years. That is just unacceptable. A lot of the reasons for that are individual choices. A greater number of people in those areas smoke. Each year, 2,300 people die as a result of smoking. One in every two people who smoke will die as a result of it. Other people engage in excessive and binge drinking, which does damage and causes cancers and cirrhosis of the liver. Other reasons include the eating of unhealthy foods and not eating enough fresh vegetables and so forth. All those things are major contributors.

The Public Health Agency’s work will be supported. We have an obesity strategy, which will be taken forward. We will invest in that, and we will further invest in public health because prevention is better than cure. It is cost-effective to engage in prevention and ensure that fewer people come to us because they have type 2 diabetes as a result of their bad diet, chest problems as a result of smoking or a lot of chronic illnesses that are brought about by heavy and excessive drinking.

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

Order. Before we move to the Finance Minister’s statement, I thank the whole House for its co-operation this morning. All Members who wanted to ask a question were able to ask one. I also — [Interruption.] Order. I also thank the Minister for his co-operation this morning. Let us move on.

Conall McDevitt (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast South)

On a point of order, Mr Speaker. I appreciate your allowing me the opportunity to make a point of order. Will you check the audiovisual facilities in the House? This morning, when the Minister was speaking, he was the Minister of Finance and Personnel on the blue screens. That was a little confusing to Members.

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

I thank the Member for his point of order. Allow us to check and come back to the Member.

Jim Wells (DUP, South Down)

Further to that point of order, Mr Speaker. Does that explain why, when the Minister was making his speech, there were only five Members on the SDLP Benches and only six on the Sinn Féin Benches?

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

Order. That was not a point of order, but I am sure that the Member knows that. Let us move on.

Sammy Wilson (DUP, East Antrim)

I am disappointed to hear that the low attendance in the House was because people thought that it was me who was speaking instead of the Health Minister. [Laughter.] I see that the reality has struck; they have all left. Even my own lot have left.

The North/South Ministerial Council met in special EU programmes sectoral format in Armagh on 21 November 2011. The Council last met in special EU programmes sectoral format in July 2011. I chaired the 21 November meeting and was accompanied by Minister Alex Attwood. The Government of the Republic of Ireland were represented by Brendan Howlin TD, the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform.

The Council noted that we are still at an early stage with regard to the next round of EU programmes. The EU budget will not be agreed until 2012. Until it is agreed, we do not know how much will be available for structural funds programmes in general or for specific programmes, including any future Peace and INTERREG programmes. All the signs are good that there will be successors to the current programmes. However, until we know how much money there will be for those programmes, we cannot initiate meaningful discussions on programme development.

The Council discussed the main priorities for the Special EU Programmes Body (SEUPB) in 2012 and reviewed the progress in finalising the business plan and budget for 2012. The plan will be brought forward for approval at a future Council meeting. Mr Pat Colgan, the chief executive of the SEUPB, updated the Council on how far the work of the SEUPB had progressed since July 2011. The Council noted the progress that had been made regarding the closure of the previous Peace II and INTERREG III programmes. The Council also noted the progress that had been made with regard to the Peace III programme. As at 31 October 2011, the Peace III programme had approved 149 projects worth around £240 million. That represented a commitment rate of approximately 80% of the programme budget. Total expenditure to date is some £85 million. As a result of that expenditure, the PEACE III programme had already met its EU spending target for 2011, which is around £75 million.

With regard to the INTERREG IVa cross-border co-operation programme, SEUPB advised the Council that, as at the end of October 2011, the programme had spent around £50 million. The body remains confident that INTERREG will achieve its 2011 EU spending target of £55 million and that the 2012 spending target is also likely to be achieved. However, SEUPB advised that, if the current pace of commitment and spend continues for much longer, there is a significant risk to the achievement of EU spending targets in 2013 and 2014 and as much as £35 million could be lost if those targets are not achieved. That is because, when programme expenditure fails to meet the relevant EU target, the European Commission deducts any shortfall between actual expenditure and target expenditure from the programme budget. SEUPB advised that it is working with officials in both jurisdictions to manage that identified risk and to ensure that no funds are, in fact, deducted. SEUPB noted that the risk is not immediate and that there is ample time to address it.

SEUPB advised the Council that the INTERREG risk has arisen on account of the time that it takes to approve applications for INTERREG funding. To date, it has taken on average a year to progress an INTERREG funding application, from the initial application stage to the final offer of programme funding. As a result, INTERREG has thus far allocated around £160 million, which is about 70% of its budget. The most recent round of project assessments is due to end next year. However, SEUPB forecasts that there may be as much as £55 million still to allocate. The relevant Departments involved in the assessment and approval of applications have particular responsibilities to help to address the situation. As a result, there will need to be a further call for funding applications early in the new year. Officials are working with SEUPB to ensure that the applications arising from that call will take significantly less time to process.

SEUPB advised the Council on the progress that has been made by the five local authority-based groups under the INTERREG programme. The groups’ situation is unchanged since July, when they had approved 19 projects worth around £22 million, which is well short of the £50 million that is their expected share of the programme budget. However, further local applications are currently under assessment, and the groups will be eligible to apply under the envisaged call for projects in the new year.

SEUPB informed the Council of its ongoing efforts to facilitate North/South participation in INTERREG transnational and inter-regional programmes. SEUPB is working with 47 projects that involve a Northern Ireland partner, and 17 projects with Northern Ireland partners are currently under assessment.

Finally, the Council noted that SEUPB’s annual report and accounts for 2010 had been certified by the Comptrollers and Auditors General in both jurisdictions and will shortly be laid before the Assembly.

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire. The Minister will be aware of the concerns and, indeed, frustrations at times about the ability to spend, particularly, INTERREG funding and the tortuous application process involved. Will he outline what specific measures are being taken to ensure that the targets for INTERREG commitment and spend will be met? Will he confirm whether any work has been undertaken to identify the lessons learnt from current and previous spends in order to inform and, obviously, make the case for future funding programmes?

Sammy Wilson (DUP, East Antrim)

I thank the Chairman for the question. As I said in the statement, a considerable amount of money is at risk, although we have been assured that there is still time to meet the requirements and get the money allocated.

A number of things have been done. First, SEUPB is working with applicants to give feedback on applications to try to ensure that they come forward in a better form. Secondly, what normally happened was that the economists in SEUPB did an assessment of the project, which then went to the sponsoring Department, where its economists did an assessment. Sometimes questions were thrown up that really should have been addressed at an early stage. Now, however, when an application comes in, the economists from the sponsoring body and from SEUPB work in parallel so that they look at the project at the same time. That means that any early questions are answered at that stage. The process is being done that way rather than being sequenced, because, on some occasions, sequencing has been one of the reasons for delay.

Other work still needs to be done. I really think that SEUPB could do more through its internal organisation. It has the staff and the resources. It has economists whom my Department has lent it to help it through the process. It needs to work more closely with applicants and to give them feedback to ensure that applications come forward in a way that is acceptable at an early stage, as opposed to having a lot of toing and froing. The average time has been a year, and that is unacceptable. Members around the Chamber could probably identify projects that have taken well over a year. All it does, of course, is put people off even making applications.

David Hilditch (DUP, East Antrim)

I thank the Minister for his answer to the Chair’s question; I, too, want to touch on the fact that around £35 million of INTERREG funds is potentially at risk of being lost. The Minister has outlined what has been done, but will he tell us what ongoing efforts will be made to ensure that Northern Ireland’s economy does not lose those vital funds?

Sammy Wilson (DUP, East Antrim)

I outlined some of the things that we have already put in place and intend to follow through with SEUPB. At the meeting, there were fairly robust exchanges with SEUPB officials to ensure that they were clear about our concern, which the Member mentioned, that we do not see a penny of that money lost as a result of applications not being dealt with on time. I have also spoken to Ministers about the need for their Department, if it is the sponsoring Department, to ensure that there is no delay once applications go to it. I have written to one Minister about that, and I have spoken with other Ministers.

Leslie Cree (UUP, North Down)

I also thank the Minister for his report. I know that he has a genuine interest in the area. The Minister will also know that I have been concerned for some time about SEUPB’s ability to deliver the full allocation of INTERREG IVa funding. In the past, we have been assured that there was no need for concern. I think that that is a direct quotation. Today, we are advised that the body is “likely” to achieve the 2012 spending target and that there is a “significant risk” — I think that I quote you correctly, Minister — to the years 2013 and 2014. Is the Minister satisfied that SEUPB has the capacity and ability to deliver on those targets?

Sammy Wilson (DUP, East Antrim)

It has certainly been given the resources to deliver on the targets. In my view, SEUPB is very well resourced. Indeed, some of the resources that were made available to it to close down PEACE II and INTERREG IIIa programmes have been left with SEUPB so that it has the additional resources. So, if there is need for streamlining with sponsoring Departments or for SEUPB to talk to applicants to make clear to them what is required, there is no excuse as far as resources are concerned. I have had a complaint — it is with some justification — especially from the local authority groups, where the biggest underspend is to be found at the minute, that only £22 million of the £50 million has been allocated there.

At the beginning, the rules were not clear, and people were confused about what was required of them. The SEUPB must address those issues. I have been as upfront as I can with Members in highlighting the difficulties and the level of risk. It has been made very clear to the SEUPB that it will be judged on its ability to deliver. It has been given the resources to do that. There has been plenty of warning about the difficulties and action must be taken to deal with them.

Dominic Bradley (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Newry and Armagh)

Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. What action has been taken to retrieve funding from groups that are in breach of the terms of their letters of offer?

Sammy Wilson (DUP, East Antrim)

We have an obligation to pursue such groups because that money will be clawed back by Europe, and it becomes a draw on our budgets in Northern Ireland. A number of groups with which there were difficulties and which did not adhere to the rules have been highlighted. In those cases, the SEUPB and the sponsoring Departments are looking at what should and can be done to retrieve funding. In cases in which it was clear that groups breached the terms of their letters of offer, the first thing that we did was stop further funding.

Trevor Lunn (Alliance, Lagan Valley)

The Minister’s party has supported David Cameron’s actions over the past few days, and I agree with that attitude. However, in the longer term, given the new relationship that might evolve between Britain and the EU, is there any risk to the future of those programmes and our ability to influence them?

Sammy Wilson (DUP, East Antrim)

I am glad that the Member is not on the Nick Clegg wing of the Alliance Party on the matter and that he agrees with the Prime Minister’s stance in standing up for the United Kingdom. That is the right thing to do because the Prime Minister of any country should put his national interest first before he looks at any wider issues.

There are a number of issues. The UK Government dispute the size of the EU budget increase and quite rightly rejected the increase of over 5% demanded by the European Parliament and Commission. It would be preposterous to impose spending restrictions on devolved Administrations and then simply to say to Europe that we will hand over a 5% increase.

That will, of course, impact on the amount of money available for EU spending programmes. Nevertheless, in discussions with the Irish and Westminster Ministers, I was assured that they will push for programmes beyond Peace III and INTERREG IVa. Indeed, Brendan Howlin, who gave an undertaking at the meeting in Armagh, spoke to the UK Minister last week or the previous week in Poland.

Cathal Boylan (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. Cuirim fáilte roimh ráiteas an Aire. I welcome the Minister’s statement. The East Border Region, which is my area, has a lot of experienced staff who know how to go about an application process. It still seems to be taking a long time to get through the process. Will the Minister assure the House that he will do all that he can to look at the criteria if that is what it takes to speed up the application process? Will he also indicate how much money will be committed to the INTERREG IVa programme? He says that £35 million is at risk, but a figure of £55 million has also been mentioned. So, will you clarify exactly how much will be committed?

Sammy Wilson (DUP, East Antrim)

I think that I indicated that £55 million has been spent to date. There has been £163 million worth of projects approved. Sorry, £50 million has been spent, and the target for spending this year is £55 million. I do not think that there is any danger that the spending target for this year will not be met. The difficulty is getting further allocations made and getting the money spent within the time frame available, because, of course, all the money has to be spent by a certain date.

As for the local authority groups, I am still at a bit of a loss as to why some of their applications were deemed to be so poor that they could not be funded, especially when I look at the expertise that some of those groups have available to them. That is something that we sought to drill down into with SEUPB at the meeting, although there is still work to be done to explain what is happening. A number of projects will go for assessments early in the new year. Hopefully, that will increase the amount of money that is allocated. The indications are that some of the projects that are under assessment are better than those that were assessed in the past.

Tom Elliott (UUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

I thank the Minister for his statement. In the second paragraph, he noted the issues around future programmes, including INTERREG and Peace. At a recent discussion that I had with them as Chair of the Committee for the Office of the First Minister and deputy First Minister, European officials indicated that, particularly for Peace IV, there is a requirement for a request from the two Governments to look at the application. I accept that these are very early stages, but it is important that we move that request on. Has the Minister had any discussions about that request, and when can we expect it to come from the two Governments?

Sammy Wilson (DUP, East Antrim)

I spoke to Brendan Howlin, who is the Minister in the Republic. We had a conversation about that as late as the November meeting. The last time that I had any discussion with Ministers in Westminster about this was in July when I spoke to Justine Greening before she moved to the Department for Transport. Again, there was a commitment there, although, understandably, she made it quite clear that the priority for the Government at Westminster was to ensure that European spending was kept within what they regarded as acceptable limits. I support them on that.

Alban Maginness (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast North)

I assure the Minister that I was here at 10.30 am waiting for him to make his statement.

Sammy Wilson (DUP, East Antrim)

My number one fan.

Alban Maginness (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast North)

I would not say “fan”.

I thank the Minister for his statement. Obviously, there is great concern about the risk to money here. In particular, I want to focus on the local government bodies. In your statement, you said that there have been 19 approved projects, worth around £22 million, which is well short of the £50 million. Does the Minister know how many projects were advanced? He might not know that at this moment, so perhaps later on, he could indicate the number. Have a disproportionate amount of projects not been approved by the SEUPB?

Sammy Wilson (DUP, East Antrim)

I am just looking through my notes. I can vaguely remember a figure of 61 for the number of projects that were advanced. To date, 19 have been approved, and there are some other projects still being assessed, as I said, which, hopefully, should be allocated. I think that those amounted to £5 million, which will bring the total up to £27 million in the new year. However, the vast majority of projects submitted have not been approved. The ratio is around 2:1.

Jim Allister (Traditional Unionist Voice, North Antrim)

Given that there is an anticipated INTERREG target shortfall of £35 million in 2013-14, according to the statement, £55 million of unallocated funds under INTERREG, local authority groups having approval for just £22 million out of a spend of £50 million, and nothing having been approved since the most recent meeting in July, does all of that not point to bad planning, hopeless administration and poor oversight by the SEUPB even though it is one of the most handsomely funded bodies that exists in these austere times?

I want to ask the Minister one further question — one that he does not like me to ask, not that that would encourage me to do so. Has he taken the opportunity to raise with the SEUPB the disparity and imbalance in the community background of its workforce?

Sammy Wilson (DUP, East Antrim)

First, I want us to be clear about the money that is at risk in the INTERREG programme. As I understand it, the money at risk, when all the issues that the Member has highlighted are in place, is £35 million, not the separate shortfalls that he has mentioned. One way in which the issue of the local authority-based groups might be dealt with is to put money into a bigger pot. That would not be an acceptable solution. Some local authority-based projects are actually some of the best. However, it is one way to deal with the money. The net risk figure is £35 million.

As far as the SEUPB’s workforce is concerned, I have made it quite clear to the Member on other occasions that I judge a body by the quality of its work rather than by the background of the people involved in it. I must say, however, that, at present, I am concerned about the body. I share the Member’s concern. He was quite correct in the assessment that he made at the beginning of his remarks: the SEUPB is a well-funded body. It is funded to the level of profession that we have been told that it requires — indeed, perhaps, to a greater level. Yet, issues have arisen that have caused me concern. I can tell the Member that there have been robust exchanges between the SEUPB and me, with regard to the funding that it has been allocated and its performance. I will keep that under review.

I want to put on record that I have been assured by Pat Colgan that he and the SEUPB will ensure that money is not given back. That is an important assurance and one to which the body will be held. We have not simply looked for assurances, we have asked for them. It is important that if there are difficulties, I, as Minister, am aware of what I can do to try to aid the process. As I said, I have already spoken to some Ministers about issues raised in their Departments. We have also looked at how we might streamline the relationship between the SEUPB and Departments when it comes to assessing and working our way through applications.

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

The next item of business is a motion from the Committee for Health, Social Services and Public Safety. The Business Committee has agreed to allow up to one hour and 30 minutes for the debate. The proposer will have 10 minutes to propose the motion and 10 minutes to make a winding-up speech. All other Members will have five minutes.

Michelle Gildernew (Sinn Féin, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

I beg to move

That this Assembly calls on the Minister of Health, Social Services and Public Safety to place an emphasis on measures to prevent fractures resulting from osteoporosis in older people, aimed at helping to improve their health outcomes.

Go raibh míle maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. I move the motion on behalf of the Committee for Health, Social Services and Public Safety.

I am sure that Members will be aware that osteoporosis is a chronic, progressive skeletal disorder, characterised by low bone mass, which makes people more susceptible to fractures. In 2009, 72,000 people in the North of Ireland had osteoporosis. It is a condition that occurs mainly in older people, especially women. A quarter of women will have osteoporosis by the time that they are 80 years old. Given that osteoporosis affects mainly older people, the number of people with osteoporosis will increase as the population ages. Therefore, with our acknowledged ageing population, osteoporosis is not an issue that will go away.

Osteoporosis is often referred to as a silent disease, as it rarely causes any symptoms until a fracture occurs. However, when a person with osteoporosis suffers a broken bone, the seriousness of the condition quickly becomes apparent. For example, women aged over 45 — I am getting close to that myself — spend more days in hospital as a result of osteoporosis than because of diabetes, heart attacks or breast cancer.

Fragility fractures are associated with substantial disability, pain, reduced quality of life and death. They can impair the ability to live independently in the community and can result in admission to nursing homes or residential care. Fractures can occur anywhere in the skeleton, but the most common sites are the wrists, the hips, the spine and the upper arms. Such fractures have a profound impact on quality of life and morbidity. For example, a fracture to the spine can lead to a curvature of the spine and loss of height, which is associated with breathing and digestion problems; a broken wrist can make even the most basic tasks, such as getting dressed or using the toilet, virtually impossible; and hip fractures are particularly devastating and represent the most common cause of accident-related deaths in older people. Unfortunately, there is a rising trend in the number of hip fractures.

An audit that was carried out in the Royal Victoria Hospital, Belfast City Hospital, Altnagelvin Hospital and the Ulster Hospital revealed some shocking statistics. Between 1985 and 2007, there has been a 59% increase in hip fractures here. The figures for the period 2002-07 show that 20% of patients who lived in their own homes and broke a hip died after 12 months, while 40% of patients who lived in a nursing home passed away over the same period. Therefore, if five people who live in a nursing home break a hip, two will be dead after 12 months. Those are shocking statistics and they reveal how devastating fractures can be to a person’s life chances. For some, they really do signal a death sentence.

Fragility fractures account for 70% of the inpatient work and 35% of the outpatient work in a fracture unit, and it has been estimated that the number of fragility fractures will double in the next 40 years. The care of fragility fractures is very expensive. A total of £70 million is spent each year here, which makes a significant dent in the healthcare budget. The average stay in hospital after a hip fracture is 26 days, and the cost per person to treat a hip fracture is £20,000.

So, what can be done to prevent fragility fractures? A variety of factors contribute to the development and maintenance of healthy bones. Those include a well-balanced diet, including foods rich in calcium and vitamin D, weight-bearing exercises, exposure to sunlight by going outside during the day, and not smoking. Osteoporosis can be prevented by building strong bones in childhood and early adulthood, and it is yet another example of a condition where, if a child gets a good start in life, a multitude of problems and suffering can be avoided down the line. During the previous mandate, I did quite a piece of work on encouraging young girls and teenage girls to drink more milk to try to increase their calcium levels, not just because it was good for our dairy farmers but because it is good to build healthy bones for the future. To that end, we need more public awareness about the importance of good bone health for parents and for teenagers and younger people. They must realise that if they do not look after their bones now, they will suffer in later life.

Although prevention is vital, there will always be people who develop osteoporosis later in life. There are drugs that can be prescribed, in particular to post-menopausal women with osteoporosis, to help to protect against bone fractures by slowing down the loss of the materials that make up the bone or by helping to build new bone. Those drugs have been shown to reduce by up to 50% the chance of a person with osteoporosis sustaining a fracture.

One of the problems, however, is that some people cannot take the drugs that are offered to them in the first instance. Those drugs are known as biphosphonates. They require people to fast before taking them or to remain upright for a certain length of time after taking them. Some people are unable to swallow them, while others suffer unpleasant side effects, such as heartburn. However, alternative but more expensive drugs are available for people who cannot take biphosphonates. Newer treatments can be given subcutaneously or intravenously, which has the potential to increase compliance. People need to get drugs that they are able to take.

There is no point in giving someone a medicine that they will not take. Statistics show that in Britain, 68% of patients are not taking their osteoporosis medication after 12 months. Therefore, the more expensive drugs need to be administered where necessary. We must always keep in mind that if someone breaks a hip, it will end up costing the health service a minimum of £20,000, never mind the subsequent social care costs. We heard much this morning about caring for people at home and about home being the hub. We need to do more to help to prevent the accidents that will take people out of their home environment.

As well as the use of medication, the prevention of falls is a key method of tackling fragility fractures. Older people rarely get fractures unless they fall. Therefore, if we can reduce falls, we can reduce the number of people with osteoporosis sustaining fractures, be they to the hip, wrist or vertebrae. In addition, more needs to be done to help people prevent themselves from falling. Sometimes, only very simple interventions are required. For example, when our Committee met the chairpersons of the local commissioning groups in October, they told us that, in one area — I think that it was the Northern Board area — there was a team of people who give out new slippers to older people. That seems to be a fairly simple thing to do, but it prevents falls because people are walking in good quality slippers that fit them. Not only does it prevent the misery of enduring a broken hip, but it potentially saves the health service thousands of pounds in surgery, hospital stays, and so on, all for the price of a pair of slippers.

The House of Commons All-Party Parliamentary Osteoporosis Group produced a report in June 2011. Its inquiry found:

“In neglecting the nutritional needs of older people, an opportunity is being missed to reduce their risk of … fractures.”

The report contends that dietary supplements have a role to play, but so does good general nutrition. Again, in the debate earlier today, questions were asked about diet and access to good nutrition. I know that many Committee members will join with me in expressing their support for the work done by organisations such as Community Meals and others to provide people with nutritious meals.

The Committee for Health, Social Services and Public Safety recognises that the Department has taken steps over the years to tackle osteoporosis. I welcome the fact that the Minister recently attended the National Osteoporosis Society’s twenty-fifth anniversary celebration and that the Department has developed a service framework for the health and well-being of older people, which will be launched in 2012. The overall aim of that framework is to improve the health and well-being of our senior citizens, and it will examine a range of measures aimed at reducing falls among older people.

I urge the Minister to keep the issue firmly on his radar, particularly over the coming months, when many challenges are bound to face our health and social care services. Prevention and early intervention are key. In the way in which we treat osteoporosis, we have the opportunity to make a real difference, not just to people’s quality of life and health outcomes but to how long they manage to live the independent and dignified life that we all strive for. I urge Members to support the motion.

Pam Lewis (DUP, South Antrim)

As a member of the Committee for Health, Social Services and Public Safety, I support the motion. Osteoporosis causes fragile bones and is a long-term condition that can lead to painful and disabling fractures. One in two women and one in five men will suffer a fracture at some point after the age of 50, mainly because of poor bone health. Osteoporosis affects 72,000 people in Northern Ireland. There were 4,700 hospital admissions for hip fractures in the region in 2007-08, costing £120 million to treat and care for. Much can be done to prevent those fractures through proper diagnosis, treatment and care for people who have osteoporosis and/or are at risk of falls. However, only a minority of patients in Northern Ireland are identified, leaving them at risk of painful, debilitating and costly broken bones.

I welcome the Minister’s response to a letter from the Chair of the Committee for Health, Social Services and Public Safety earlier this year, which set out what exactly he was doing about it. At present, all those over 50 who require a hip replacement or suffer a non-hip fracture are subject to assessment to see whether they have osteoporosis. Patients are diagnosed, reviewed every year and receive advice on how to decrease the risk of a fracture. I am also pleased that the Minister has launched the development of a new home accident prevention strategy in his Department for publication next year. That is vital given that we in Northern Ireland have an ageing population, and that will obviously have a major implication for healthcare, as the older we get, the more dependent we become on health treatment and services.

Coupled with the new policy, I welcome the new service framework for older people’s health and well-being, which will include a number of standards in relation to falls, especially their prevention. I also wish to highlight the report of the fragility fracture working group that was published by the HSC Public Health Agency in 2009, which outlines the standard of fracture prevention services that all health and social care trusts should be providing. What steps is the Minister taking to implement the recommendations?

Over the past few years, standards have been raised on our high streets and in shopping centres to provide easier access for those who are disabled. Many of those standards have also helped the elderly to access shops without fear of tripping and falling, which, statistically, results in fractures in older people. We need to look at our footpaths, because even young and healthy people can come undone during lengthy spells of icy weather, so imagine how much worse it can be for those who are older and vulnerable. Young people are able to cope with fractures more easily. That is not to say that they do not suffer but their recovery is much quicker. That is not the case for the elderly, and we must ensure their protection and health and well-being.

We owe it to our ageing population to provide them with the help that they need to live as healthy a life as possible and to secure their independence. We need to do more to assist those with osteoporosis in diagnosis and treatment and to implement prevention measures where possible. I, therefore, support the motion.

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

We now move to the lunchtime suspension. I propose, by leave of the Assembly, to suspend the sitting until 2.00 pm. The first item of business when we return will be Question Time.

The debate stood suspended.

The sitting was suspended at 12.27 pm.

On resuming (Mr Deputy Speaker [Mr Dallat] in the Chair) —

John Dallat (Social Democratic and Labour Party, East Londonderry)

Question 6 has been withdrawn and requires a written answer.

Alex Easton (DUP, North Down)

1. asked the Minister of Education to outline the timetable for the termination of the appointments of the commissioners of the South Eastern Education and Library Board. (AQO 1003/11-15)

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

My focus is on delivering the commitment in the draft Programme for Government to establish the Education and Skills Authority (ESA) in April 2013 and on ensuring, in the interim, stability and good governance in the education and library boards and other education bodies. However, as I indicated during the debate in the House on 28 November, I have asked my officials to explore the feasibility of reconstituting the South Eastern Education and Library Board (SEELB), pending the establishment of ESA, and to provide me with advice on that matter. I will let the Assembly know when I have reached my conclusions on that advice.

Alex Easton (DUP, North Down)

I thank the Minister for his answer. In light of the proposals by commissioners for closures for the board, does the Minister not feel that it is time that we speeded up the process to get rid of the commissioners so that local politicians can have accountability for the board?

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

In many aspects, it is regrettable that there are still commissioners on the South Eastern Education and Library Board. However, in a sense, that was held hostage to the establishment of ESA. I am thankful that we have now had the political breakthrough that is required for the establishment of ESA and that we are moving towards the implementation of that Executive objective. As I said, I have asked my officials to look at the issue to see how feasible it is to reconstitute the board in the time frame that we are working towards: ESA is to be place by April 2013. The democratic accountability for any decision about a school closure comes through the consultation process that the boards have to undertake and the consultation process that my Department has to undertake. Any decision on a school closure rests with the Minister of the day.

Cathal Boylan (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. Can the Minister assure the House that the role and functions of the board are still being carried out as they should be, in a transparent and accountable manner?

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

Yes, the same responsibilities are on the commissioners as are on other boards to ensure that their functions are carried out in an open and transparent manner. The chief executive of the SEELB is accountable to the permanent secretary of my Department as senior accounting officer in the Department. All functions and services that are carried out by the board are open to full scrutiny.

Conall McDevitt (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast South)

I welcome the Minister’s acknowledgement that the situation is unsustainable. It is clearly, to a large extent, unaccountable, because of the lack of democratic representation. Therefore, can he provide a specific timeline for when he will receive the advice from his officials and a timeline for when he might take a decision to reinstate local councillors on to the South Eastern Board?

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

I do not wish to give a definitive timeline. Clearly, it has to be carried out urgently, as we are rapidly heading towards the end of this calendar year and towards next year and the legislative process that will see the establishment of ESA. Therefore, I have asked my officials to come back to me with the advice. Once the advice is received, I will consider it as urgently as is prudent to do so. Once I have done so, I will report back to the House on my findings and what the next steps will be.

Steven Agnew (Green, North Down)

What meetings, if any, has the Minister had with the commissioners on the future of Central Integrated Primary School and its town centre location?

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

I have had no meetings with the commissioners on that matter, and I have not had any correspondence from the commissioners on that matter. The Member may have been in correspondence with me on that matter already but, to refresh my memory on that, he should write to me, and I will correspond with him accordingly.

Tom Buchanan (DUP, West Tyrone)

2. asked the Minister of Education what assessments are carried out of the impact that the closure of a rural primary school would have on its community. (AQO 1004/11-15)

Leslie Cree (UUP, North Down)

12. asked the Minister of Education for his assessment of whether it is adequate to apply rural proofing to a policy rather than to individual schools that are earmarked for closure. (AQO 1014/11-15)

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

With your permission, a LeasCheann Comhairle, I will answer questions 2 and 12 together as they are both about the possible closure of rural schools.

I wish to make it clear that my first priority is the educational well-being of pupils in all schools, whether they are urban or rural. This has been and will continue to be my overriding priority when considering any proposals to close a school. The sustainable schools policy is my Department’s framework for assessing the viability and long-term sustainability of schools.

The policy addresses the issue of rural schools and it was rural-proofed before publication in 2009. For any school that is proposed for closure, the managing authority must bring forward a published development proposal. An integral element of every development proposal is consultation. Before publication, those directly affected by the proposal, including the parents of pupils, must be consulted. After publication, there is a two-month period in which anyone throughout the community may make their views known to my Department. All comments received are taken into consideration when I make a final decision on the proposal.

I have stated on a number of occasions, but am happy to reiterate, that each proposal for the closure of a school is considered in the context of its own local area, and all pertinent issues form part of my considerations. As part of my considerations, I will seek to ensure that the pupils in rural schools have access to high-quality education.

Tom Buchanan (DUP, West Tyrone)

I thank the Minister for his response. I am sure that he would agree with me that rural schools are the hub of their communities and that their closure would leave a huge gap. Will the Minister advise me as to what leeway is given to a rural school that finds itself in an unsustainable situation?

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

Given that choice of language, if we have a rural school in an “unsustainable situation”, it begs the question of why we maintain that school. We first have to ensure that we do not allow the majority of our rural schools to reach that condition. Each school will be judged on its own merits. The sustainable schools policy allows for rurality and the needs of rural communities to be taken into consideration. Indeed, the classification in the sustainable schools policy of “rural” is probably the broadest of any departmental policy. A school is considered rural if it is outside the Belfast City Council area and outside the urban area of Derry City Council, so the vast majority of our schools are classed as rural in that context.

When a rural school is being assessed, it is different in a number of criteria. For instance, urban primary schools are based on pupil numbers of 140; rural primary schools on 105, which again takes into account their rurality. Accessibility to the community is also taken into account when assessing our rural schools. Through any development proposals that come forward, rural communities and their elected representatives will be able to bring forward any relevant information about the needs and requirements of that community and why a specific school should remain in the future. However, all decisions will also have to be judged on the basis of the needs of the pupils in the school. We cannot plan our future education system on the needs of school buildings. It will be based on the needs of the pupils in those schools.

Leslie Cree (UUP, North Down)

Does the Minister agree that rural-proofing would be more effective if it were to be tied into the outcomes of the sustainable schools policy, such as school closures, rather than into the policy itself?

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

In equality monitoring, rural-proofing or rural monitoring, best practice has been that actual policies are rural-proofed, and this policy has been rural-proofed. There are rural-specific determinations in the policy that allow rural schools the space and particular arrangements that they need to develop and to remain sustainable. For instance, if the viability audit outcome identifies a rural school as unsustainable into the future, and if a development proposal is brought forward for closure, that proposal is open to further scrutiny. It is open to elected representatives and the local community to come forward to present the uniqueness around each school. The sustainable schools policy and the development proposals around possible school closures are open, transparent and democratic. However, that does not in any way eradicate the need to make difficult decisions around schools, whether in rural or urban communities. I emphasise, as I did to the previous questioner, that it is the needs of the pupils of the school, not the buildings, that we should be concerned about. The needs and the educational requirements of the pupils in the school are our main concern.

Phil Flanagan (Sinn Féin, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. Will the specific accessibility and transport needs of rural schools be considered as part of the viability audit?

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

The simple answer is yes. The sustainable schools policy outlines different criteria for rural primary schools, as I have clearly stated. Accessibility is built into the six principles surrounding the sustainability of schools, as is rural transport, which is a key factor for many rural communities. The number of schools in an area and how long the expected travel times for children would be will be taken into account when assessing area planning.

Kieran McCarthy (Alliance, Strangford)

I heard what the Minister said about the criteria and assessment. Was that process carried out in the case of Ballykeigle Primary School? That school is to close. It has gone through the system, yet Ards Borough Council, of which I am a member, and others have made representation to your Department in support of that school.

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

The South Eastern Education and Library Board announced in a development proposal that Ballykeigle Primary School was one of the schools that would close. That is now open to another consultation process. There are opportunities for you and your colleagues to make representations to the board, and when the decision comes to my Department officially, there will be opportunities for elected representatives and local community representatives to make representations directly to me as Minister. The sustainable schools policy criteria and those representations will be taken into consideration before I reach a decision on any school.

Daithí McKay (Sinn Féin, North Antrim)

3. asked the Minister of Education in how many wards do fewer than 10% of children who live within the ward attend a grammar school. (AQO 1005/11-15)

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

In 2010-11, the school census showed that 42% of pupils at post-primary schools attended a grammar school. At ward level, the percentage of pupils attending grammar schools ranged from 3% in the Keady ward to 96% in the Malone ward. There were a total of 21 wards in which fewer than 10% of children who lived within the ward attended a grammar school. Those were all lower-income wards.

Daithí McKay (Sinn Féin, North Antrim)

Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. I thank the Minister for his answer. Does he agree that there is clearly a direct correlation between the wealth of a child’s family and access to grammar-school education? Further, does he agree that in many areas, such as Ballymena in my constituency, the worst affected group is that of Protestant working-class males?

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

Figures reached through studies into these matters show that the lower ranked the area of social deprivation one lives in, the less likelihood there is of going to a grammar school. That is based on a number of factors. It has been shown that young people and families from socially deprived areas are less likely to do well in education. We all have a responsibility to tackle that. There is also evidence that tutoring happens in order to prepare for tests to access a school, which is to the detriment of those from lower socioeconomic backgrounds.

However, I will emphasise one thing that I have said on numerous occasions. Just because a school has a sign saying “grammar school” hanging from its front gate does not necessarily make it a good school. There are excellent examples of schools that are non-selective, that operate in areas of high social deprivation, and that are turning out excellent academic results. Those schools are also turning out excellent young adults who value themselves and will undoubt­edly become valuable members of our society.

Pat Ramsey (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

Will the Minister outline whether he believes that grammar schools have a future in Northern Ireland?

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

I am not fixated on the title that a school wishes to give itself. It can call itself a grammar school, high school, college; I am not fixated on its title. I am concerned about the entrance criteria used by a number of our schools. That is the matter of concern, not the individual school or its title.

As I understand it, there is nothing in legislation that requires a grammar school to use academic selection. Any school wishing to move away from academic selection could do so. What title a school chooses to give itself is open to discussion with my Department. I want to see an education estate that is open to all young people and centres of education that do not ask children at the age of 11, “are you clever?”, but ask, “how are you clever?” It is the duty of educationalists to grow that acorn and to light the spirit of education in every pupil.

Roy Beggs (UUP, East Antrim)

The Minister mentioned underachieve­ment in certain areas. Does he accept that high levels of absenteeism, with less than 85% attendance, make a major contribution, and will he advise how he is working with all the various partners and other agencies to improve the situation so that young people will meet their full potential?

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

Yes, high absenteeism from school will clearly have a detrimental effect on an individual’s schooling. My Department regularly works with the boards, the Council for Catholic Maintained Schools (CCMS) and other managing authorities to ensure that all measures possible are being used to encourage young people to attend school. However, there are clearly sections of our society that, for generations, have been divorced from education. They do not understand the need for education and, perhaps because of a poor education experience themselves, have turned off, and their children have turned off.

I am studying a public information advertising campaign — similar to the Public Health Agency’s campaigns to improve community health — to improve all our communities’ understandings of the need for education and the individual family members’ responsibility around education, and to empower them to be part of the education community so that they feel comfortable engaging with their local schools. Clearly, if we have young people who are not attending school, their education will suffer. We have a number of programmes in place to challenge that. My Department, the boards and the managing authorities work closely together in tackling those figures.

Mike Nesbitt (UUP, Strangford)

4. asked the Minister of Education when he expects to report on the outcome of the schools viability audit. (AQO 1006/11-15)

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

I have asked for the viability audit reports to be submitted to my Department by the boards by 16 January 2012. The initial completion date for the audit was the end of December 2011. My Department issued the aggregated school budget figures for the next three years to all schools in November, and I agreed to extend the deadline for completion of the audit to 16 January 2012. That extension will enable the boards to include a more accurate assessment of the financial stability of schools following the recent budget adjustments directing more money to the aggregated schools budget, alongside the assessments of quality of provision and enrolment trends.

It is important to remember that the viability audit is to identify schools that are under stress in terms of viability, now and in the future. It is the start of a process that will largely be taken forward through area planning. However, I have already indicated to the House that the audit will not be used to delay any necessary actions to protect the educational well-being of pupils. I will, therefore, continue to take decisions on development proposals already initiated, including those for school closures, in the best interests of pupils.

Mike Nesbitt (UUP, Strangford)

I thank the Minister for the clarification. Will he assure the House that the assessment and decisions taken on foot of the audit will be done across the whole of Northern Ireland and not confined to the existing board boundaries?

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

It will be, in the sense that I have asked boards, CCMS and the other managing authorities to look beyond existing boundaries, because pupils travel back and forth across boundaries, so it is only natural that any future planning of our schools estate has to take place on that basis. The viability audit will focus on each individual school at this stage. I have asked the boards and managing authorities to come back to me with proposals for any school that is under stress. That does not necessarily mean automatic closure. There could be a number of different scenarios surrounding those schools and how we assist them going into the future.

The importance of the viability audit at this stage is to identify schools that are under stress, so that the Department and the managing authorities have a clear and robust picture on the way forward and how we deal with schools under pressure. However, I do want to see circumstances in which we are not constrained by board boundaries and the boards, CCMS and all others are planning on a regional basis and are aware of the needs of their education partners around them.

Mervyn Storey (DUP, North Antrim)

Will the Minister give us some indication of how he intends to process the information produced as a result of the audit, in light of the bombshell that was sent to schools last week regarding the 5% reduction in the age-weighted pupil unit? Will he clarify whether he believes that that correspondence leaves the viability audit in a very precarious situation and that, unfortunately, nearly all schools will end up in a deficit position, leaving our educational estate to face a very grim future heading into 2012?

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

It has been clear since the budget was set in the last parliamentary term that education faces very difficult decisions in the time ahead. I have referred to the worst education budget in modern history, and that is no exaggeration. As we went through the submissions on schools’ three-year work programmes, it became clear to my departmental officials and me that schools had not taken on board the full implications of the budget. I had regular discussions with school heads and school leaders in various fora in which I undertook to pass information on to schools about their budgets as early as possible. I did that. The purpose of the November letter was to give schools a very clear picture of what the future looked like.

I accept that when the figures are in black and white in front of a board of governors or a principal, they make very stark reading. I do not accept, however, that they make the viability audit impossible, unnecessary or unviable. I have extended the deadline for several weeks to allow the new information to be factored in. However, if we do not take action on the viability audit, we will retain our 85,000 empty school desks and our unsustainable schools estate. That drain alone will have another detrimental budgetary effect on those schools in the future. Therefore, the viability audit and area planning will go ahead. I will continue to engage with my Executive colleagues, including the Finance Minister, and, indeed, I will continue to interrogate my budget to see whether there are any further ways in which we can assist schools.

Michaela Boyle (Sinn Féin, West Tyrone)

Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. The Minister may have touched on some aspects of my supplementary already, but I want clarification. Will the Minister confirm that the viability audit is not aimed at drawing up a list of schools for closure, as has been claimed by some sections of the media and, indeed, some parties in the Chamber?

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

No, it is not the function of the viability audit to draw up a list of schools for closure. Its function is to identify schools that are under pressure. I want the boards, CCMS and the managing authorities to come back to me with worked-out plans of how they intend to deal with it. A number of schools may close as a result; that is a necessary decision. However, each school will be judged on its own merits. Each school will have to go through a full development proposal before any decision can be made on its closure.

The viability audit is not about drawing up a list of schools for closure. It is to ensure that the Department and the managing authorities are aware of the state of each individual school, how we will deal with that school and how we protect our very limited budget.

Willie Clarke (Sinn Féin, South Down)

5. asked the Minister of Education what information he has received from grammar schools about the funding of academic selection tests. (AQO 1007/11-15)

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

On 11 October 2010, the previous Education Minister wrote to schools operating unregulated entrance tests. In the interests of transparency, she sought to obtain details of how all schools funded or contributed to the costs associated with the development, provision and administration of their tests. Most schools did not provide information. However, some schools that were using a test for which parents were not charged were clear that they were not using their delegated budget to fund the entrance test. Others stated that any such use of their delegated budget was within the terms of the delegation.

Willie Clarke (Sinn Féin, South Down)

Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. I thank the Minister for his answer. Does the Minister’s Department have concerns about the legality of schools’ charging pupils to sit unregulated tests?

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

We have concerns. Whether a school is funded by a private donor to set unregulated tests — it appears that that is happening in a number of cases — or a school or parents are covering the cost themselves, the fact is that parents are being charged to access publicly funded education. Even more worryingly, parents are being charged to have their children rejected from publicly funded education. That should be a matter of concern for us all. We have held on jealously to the right to education free at the point of delivery for preschool, primary-school and post-primary school education, and we have a situation where a number of schools are charging — or a private donor is covering the cost — either to allow a child into a school or to say to that child, “No, you are not coming into that school.” So it is a matter that I intend to investigate further in the weeks and months ahead.

Dominic Bradley (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Newry and Armagh)

Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as an fhreagra a thug sé dúinn. Does the Minister accept that parents are regrettably continuing to send their children for private tests? Does he also accept that he has a duty to deal with this impasse and to try to bring a resolution to it?

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

Yes, parents are sending their children for unregulated testing, although it is a lesser number than used to do so. There is a responsibility on us all to deal with that matter. I am not asking people to come out to support my party’s position on this. I am asking them to come out to support the position of their own party. Three of the five parties that sit round the Executive table are opposed to academic selection. The trade union movement, the Catholic Church and a significant number of academics and educationalists are opposed to it. I am not asking any of those people to come out to support my position. I ask them to support their position.

I am of the firm view that academic selection is educationally unnecessary and unsound. As we go into the future and look at the future construct of our schools estate, certain schools will be unfairly disadvantaged because a number of other schools are using clever marketing devices to bring in pupils. If people sit back on the Benches of this Chamber — or on any other bench, for that matter — and remain quiet about that, they cannot then turn round and say that it is up to the Education Minister to sort that out. If you have a policy and a belief, it is up to each individual organisation to come out to lobby for it to become a reality.

Sydney Anderson (DUP, Upper Bann)

Why is the Minister commenting on what he has previously described as private and breakaway tests?

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

As a democratically elected Minister of the Assembly, I work under the Standing Orders of the Assembly. So, when a Member submits a question and it is accepted by the Business Office and appears on the Order Paper, I am duty bound to answer it.

Jo-Anne Dobson (UUP, Upper Bann)

7. asked the Minister of Education what guidelines his Department has drawn up in relation to the draft Programme for Government commitment of guaranteeing a year’s free preschool education. (AQO 1009/11-15)

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

Consultation on the draft Programme for Government is under way until 22 February 2012, after which a final draft Programme for Government will be agreed. The draft Programme for Government included a commitment to provide one year of funded preschool education for every child whose parent wants it. That aligns with the current aim of the Department’s preschool education expansion programme, which was launched in 1998.

Preschool education places are available in statutory nursery schools, nursery units in primary schools and in voluntary and private preschool settings. In the 2011-12 preschool year, there are over 23,000 children in funded preschool education places. However, it is not always possible to make a place available in the setting expressed by a parent as the first preference. Once the Programme for Government is finalised, the Department will consider how best to ensure that that commitment is met.

In the meantime, the Department of Education will continue to work with the education and library boards and with the preschool education advisory group (PEAG) in each education and library board area. The PEAGS are responsible for the planning and provision of preschool places on behalf of the Department at local level to ensure that the aim of the preschool project is met.

John Dallat (Social Democratic and Labour Party, East Londonderry)

Questions 2, 8 and 13 have been withdrawn. Questions 2 and 8 require a written answer.

Paul Givan (DUP, Lagan Valley)

1. asked the Minister of Justice for an update on the progress in producing the business case for the police museum. (AQO 1018/11-15)

David Ford (Alliance, South Antrim)

I continue to fully support the creation of a police museum. However, some issues remain to be resolved before the outline business case presented by the RUC GC Foundation can be approved and submitted to the Department of Finance and Personnel (DFP). There are outstanding questions in respect of running costs, income generation, security considerations and planning issues.

I convened a meeting at Brooklyn in July, and my officials have held a number of meetings over the past few months with the Police Service, the Northern Ireland Museums Council and the RUC GC Foundation and have had discussions with the Planning Service and the Policing Board to progress the business case. Key stakeholders held a round-table meeting yesterday to address the outstanding issues as a matter of priority to enable the business case to be finalised. Further work is to be undertaken over the next four weeks by my officials, the RUC GC Foundation and the PSNI with a view to having all matters concluded and my Department ratifying the business case for DFP approval.

Paul Givan (DUP, Lagan Valley)

To say that I am disappointed at how this matter is being progressed is an understatement. I have to impress on the Minister that he needs to take personal control of the issue because there is a clear feeling that officials in his Department who have been tasked with dealing with the issue are procrastinating and delaying, some would suggest deliberately so, and a scheme that has taken years —

John Dallat (Social Democratic and Labour Party, East Londonderry)

Question, please.

Paul Givan (DUP, Lagan Valley)

— to get to this point needs to be progressed as a matter of urgency. I ask the Minister to make this one of his priority schemes and move it forward.

David Ford (Alliance, South Antrim)

I made it clear that I personally convened a meeting at Brooklyn in July, and my officials have been following the matter up. I refute any suggestion that there is procrastination on the part of officials in the Department of Justice, but the reality is that business cases have to be met, and issues relating to matters such as planning and security, where concerns have been raised by the Police Service, also have to be met. That is my ambition, but it is not something that the Department can deliver on its own, and it is certainly not something that the Department is procrastinating on.

Leslie Cree (UUP, North Down)

In November 2001, the then Secretary of State John Reid promised the RUC GC Foundation that there would be a museum. Does the Minister think that 10 years is a long time to produce any sort of a business case?

David Ford (Alliance, South Antrim)

That may well be the case, but it is not the role of the Department to draw up the business case.

Judith Cochrane (Alliance, Belfast East)

3. asked the Minister of Justice to outline the work being undertaken by his Department to support communities who want to see a reduction in the number of interface barriers within their areas. (AQO 1020/11-15)

David Ford (Alliance, South Antrim)

I am pleased to say that one of the commitments in the Executive’s draft Programme for Government is to actively seek local agreement to reduce the number of peace walls. I see that as an important recognition of the significance of one aspect of the Department’s ongoing work to create a safe and secure shared community for all people living in Northern Ireland.

The delivery of the commitment will require engagement from different parts of government and a number of statutory bodies. We will need to pull together not only to support communities as ideas for change are developed but to support communities through the actual change process. To facilitate that work, I asked Department of Justice officials to draw up plans to establish an interagency group. The idea is to bring relevant parties together to deal with issues that arise at interfaces around safety and security, as well as assisting and targeting funding in the most effective manner possible.

There are already signs of progress in dealing with interface structures. As Members will know, in September, we had the opening of a gate in the interface wall at Alexandra Park, which is an excellent example of cross-community working, supported by statutory and other bodies. I am hopeful that, early in the new year, we will see Newington Street opened, and I am actively exploring the removal of the road barrier at Brucevale Park. I am also encouraged by the willingness of people in Duncairn Gardens to agree to the opening of an entry leading on to Hillman Street, which has been closed for many years.

The Department of Justice is exploring further opportunities for progress at interfaces in conjunction with community representatives, the Community Relations Council, Belfast City Council, the police and others. Clearly, the work will proceed at different speeds in different areas, but I hope to build a momentum for change.

Judith Cochrane (Alliance, Belfast East)

I welcome the Minister’s response and the evident step change that the Executive are taking to support communities in removing the physical divisions. Does the Minister agree that the evidence he has presented today contradicts recent media assertions that the number of physical interface barriers is increasing and that government are dragging their heels in addressing that issue?

David Ford (Alliance, South Antrim)

I am happy to confirm what my colleague has said. A week or so ago, the BBC’s ‘Hearts and Minds’ unfortunately chose to report that the peace walls were getting higher; they are not. They said that there were more of them; there are not. No peace walls have been erected since the Northern Ireland Office erected one three years ago. That was a decision with which I, as a local representative in the north Belfast/Newtownabbey area, disagreed. The reality is that we now see constructive and positive engagement by local communities, supported by a range of agencies. Groundwork, for example, has been heavily involved in Alexandra Park. That ongoing community dialogue, supported by statutory bodies such as the city council and the police, has brought about real progress at removing peace walls, not building them higher or having more of them. I wonder if that will get on ‘Stormont Today’.

Phil Flanagan (Sinn Féin, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. I sincerely hope this does not get on ‘Stormont Today’. Will the Minister ensure that adequate consultation with stakeholders, including those who live near a peace line, will take place before any action is taken on the issue?

David Ford (Alliance, South Antrim)

Absolutely; that is the approach the Department has taken. That is why we have seen such success in Alexandra Park. It was the result of ongoing significant engagement over a time by representatives from both sides of the divide, dealt with by Groundwork principally but with the full support of the statutory bodies that I named earlier. That is a positive example of how to make things work, and it is no surprise that other potential removals in that immediate area are following on from Alexandra Park.

Michael Copeland (UUP, Belfast East)

Does the Minister agree that each of the so-called barriers exists for a reason and that, as has been said, the main contributors to any discussion surrounding their removal must be the communities who live in their shadow? Can he understand the necessity to set aside the considerations of politics and to act only in the interests of the security and safety of those who live on either side of the barriers?

David Ford (Alliance, South Antrim)

I do not think there is anything political about responding to requests from local people to remove barriers, open gates or, as in Alexandra Park, open a gate for a short time every day. Encouraging people to learn to remove the physical barriers, rather than maintaining them in a way that is damaging to society and to the economy, is the practical reality of how we will deliver a shared future.

Mervyn Storey (DUP, North Antrim)

Given the Justice Minister’s comments on removing physical barriers, will he join me in asking the roads Minister to ensure that he complies with the law regarding illegal signs? Such signs have been put up in the village of Rasharkin in my constituency. For the past six weeks, the police have failed, DRD has failed, the Minister has failed. Will he join me —

John Dallat (Social Democratic and Labour Party, East Londonderry)

Order. The Member will resume his seat. That question is not relevant to the substantive question.

Mervyn Storey (DUP, North Antrim)

It is. On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker.

John Dallat (Social Democratic and Labour Party, East Londonderry)

I cannot take a point of order until after Question Time.

Trevor Clarke (DUP, South Antrim)

4. asked the Minister of Justice whether permission was given for the republican protest outside Her Majesty’s Prison Maghaberry on 25 and 26 November 2011 and what actions were taken against the aggressive protesters. (AQO 1021/11-15)

Jonathan Craig (DUP, Lagan Valley)

12. asked the Minister of Justice whether special or disturbance payments were made to prisoners in Maghaberry prison because of protests by dissident republicans over the weekend of 25 and 26 November 2011. (AQO 1029/11-15)

David Ford (Alliance, South Antrim)

With your permission, Mr Deputy Speaker, I will answer questions 4 and 12 together. The Northern Ireland Prison Service became aware that a vigil on the grounds of Maghaberry prison was being planned for 25 and 26 November, when details were posted on a website. Following discussions between the Police Service and the Prison Service, it was decided to facilitate a peaceful protest in the grounds of Maghaberry prison in line with articles 10 and 11 of the European Convention on Human Rights. No permission for the protest to take place was sought from NIPS. Officials attempted to make contact with the organisers of the protest in order to establish boundaries that would facilitate the protest. No response was received from the organisers. The governor, therefore, arranged for notices to be posted. Those notices made it clear that the protest must be conducted lawfully, peacefully and without threat or intimidation towards any persons and must not cause any disruption to the good order and safety of the prison.

During the protest, there was some minor disorder and damage to prison property. However, there were no injuries to police or prison officers. The PSNI, working in support of the Prison Service, had a robust criminal justice strategy in place and is currently examining CCTV footage of the protest. Any evidence of criminal behaviour on the part of individual protesters will be followed up by the Police Service and the Public Prosecution Service.

All prisoners were given £5 phone credit to allow them to keep in touch with families while the security operation necessitated the suspension of all domestic and legal visits on 25 and 26 November. The phone credit was paid from the prisoners’ amenity fund, not from public funds.

Trevor Clarke (DUP, South Antrim)

I am appalled that republican prisoners were facilitated in that illegal protest. Given that they trespassed on Prison Service land — I am led to believe that the Prison Service actually facilitated them by allowing them the use of the Quaker facility for toilets and running water — does the Minister agree that that was appropriate and that the only action that his Department should have taken was to have facilitated them inside the prison and put them behind bars?

David Ford (Alliance, South Antrim)

I think that Mr Clarke needs to distinguish between civil issues, such as trespass, and criminal activity. I made it clear that any suggestion of criminal activity is being followed up by the PSNI. The fact that facilities were made available is an issue for the Quakers who run the visitor centre. With regard to our responsibilities to maintain the European Convention on Human Rights, I believe that the actions taken by the Prison Service and the Police Service were proportionate in dealing with the protest. They also dealt extremely successfully with the minor disturbances that occurred.

Jennifer McCann (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

The Minister will be aware that an agreement was made last August between independent facilitators, the prisoners and the prison administration after protests in Maghaberry prison at Roe House and that the recommendations from that agreement have not yet been implemented. Will the Minister use his office and influence to ensure that those recommendations are implemented in full in order to resolve the protest?

David Ford (Alliance, South Antrim)

I think, Deputy Speaker, that we are straying a little from the protest outside the prison. I regret that last year’s August agreement has not been fully implemented because prisoners have not allowed that to happen and because, for example, there have been continuing ongoing threats to prison officers. I remain committed to ensuring that all that is possible is done to bring that agreement into full operation, but that will be done on the basis of ensuring the safety and security of all prisoners, prison staff and prison visitors.

Jim Allister (Traditional Unionist Voice, North Antrim)

What message does the Minister think it sends to troublemaking protesters when he begins his answer by proclaiming the paramountcy of their protection under articles 10 and 11 and has officials facilitate, through consultation with the Quaker centre, the opening of facilities for the protesters and then is unable to tell the House whether there will be an effective police follow-up action resulting in prosecutions?

David Ford (Alliance, South Antrim)

I trust that every Member of the House, whether legally qualified or not, accepts that there should be due process in any question of criminal prosecution.

Karen McKevitt (Social Democratic and Labour Party, South Down)

Will the Minister clarify what legal action, if any, will be taken against those who took part in the loyalist protest, which included the blocking of a road, outside Belfast City Hall on the evening of 1 December?

David Ford (Alliance, South Antrim)

Deputy Speaker, I really think —

John Dallat (Social Democratic and Labour Party, East Londonderry)

Order. I rule that that question is not relevant.

Sue Ramsey (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

5. asked the Minister of Justice for his assessment of the award of contracts by the PSNI for the recruitment of agency, associate or consultancy staff. (AQO 1022/11-15)

David Ford (Alliance, South Antrim)

The recruitment of staff to the Police Service is a matter for the Chief Constable, who is accountable to the Policing Board. I am committed to respecting the operational independence of the Chief Constable and the role of the board. It would, therefore, be inappropriate for me to comment on the employment of former officers. The award of contracts by the PSNI is, likewise, a matter for the Chief Constable. The Department of Justice is, however, responsible for ensuring that PSNI contracts, including those for the recruitment of agency, associate or consultancy staff, are procured through the Central Procurement Directorate and that the PSNI follows best practice guidelines, which are subject to internal audit arrangements. I am satisfied that the Police Service follows the appropriate processes.

Sue Ramsey (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

Given the considerable public interest shown by the media and the Policing Board in the issues, some of the Minister’s comments are disappointing. Will the Minister confirm whether the retired head of PSNI special branch is a long-standing friend of the Police Ombudsman’s former director of investigation and has recently been rehired as a consultant on the past by the PSNI? It is an issue of public interest.

David Ford (Alliance, South Antrim)

It may well be a matter of public interest, but Ms Ramsey highlighted in her own question that it is an issue of interest for the Policing Board. It, not the Minister or the Department, has responsibility for oversight of the work of the Chief Constable.

Ian McCrea (DUP, Mid Ulster)

Obviously, there is an agenda by Sinn Féin to try to ruin the good name of the RUC and those who served this community well. If the police or any other body gives people jobs, whether they are agency workers or employed directly, and it is done in an appropriate manner and according to the law, does the Minister agree that it is for them to decide whom they employ?

David Ford (Alliance, South Antrim)

I thought that I had made it clear: it is an issue for the Chief Constable, who is accountable to the Policing Board. My sole issue is to ensure that contracts are carried out properly and in line with Central Procurement Directorate instructions. That is my understanding of the position.

Conall McDevitt (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast South)

I declare an interest as a member of the Policing Board. Is the Minister, as a custodian of the full implementation of the Good Friday Agreement in his capacity as a Minister of the Northern Ireland Executive and as the leader of a party that upholds the principles and full implementation of the Patten report, concerned that such practices could give rise to the perception that some aspects of the Patten agreement are being undermined through the back door?

David Ford (Alliance, South Antrim)

The Member, as a member of the Policing Board, is far better equipped that I am to follow up the issue of the practices of the Chief Constable. Members need to be very careful about what they might wish me to do as regards interfering with the decisions of the Chief Constable or some of the other agencies, such as the Public Prosecution Service. There may well be occasions when they would have wished me not to interfere. I shall maintain my position very carefully to ensure that I do not interfere with the Chief Constable’s operational decisions in any circumstances.

Gordon Dunne (DUP, North Down)

6. asked the Minister of Justice whether he has any plans to extend the powers of dispersal to the PSNI to deal with antisocial behaviour. (AQO 1023/11-15)

David Ford (Alliance, South Antrim)

Building safer communities by preventing antisocial behaviour and reducing the harm that it causes is a top priority for my Department and the Executive, as set out in the draft Programme for Government. I will publish a new community safety strategy early in the new year. It will set out proposals to address antisocial behaviour through working in greater partnership regionally and locally. The proposals will build on our approach to date of a graduated response, with prevention, intervention and enforcement where necessary. Members will be aware that that approach has contributed to a reduction of over 20% in the incidence of antisocial behaviour since 2008. Long-term trends, as measured by the Northern Ireland crime survey, show that fewer people think that antisocial behaviour is a big problem in their area.

It is worth noting that the preventative approach was endorsed during the public consultation on the strategy, with enforcement seen as the last resort. Indeed, there were no compelling arguments in support of additional powers, including dispersal powers. Therefore, I confirm that, at this time, I have no plans to extent the PSNI powers of dispersal.

Gordon Dunne (DUP, North Down)

I thank the Minister for his answer. In light of the ongoing problem of antisocial behaviour throughout the Province, what real alternatives do you have to try to deal with the problem?

David Ford (Alliance, South Antrim)

When Mr Dunne speaks of the ongoing problem, he needs to acknowledge that it is an ongoing but reducing problem. I am well aware that those who suffer antisocial behaviour suffer 100% from it. The reality is that we have seen work done through a variety of approaches, including various types of preventative work and looking at issues like acceptable behaviour contracts, informal warnings and a relatively small number of anti-social behaviour orders issued in Northern Ireland in comparison with what has happened in many parts of Great Britain. The result of that is that we have seen the constructive reduction in antisocial behaviour. I hope that we will continue to see those proposals implemented with continuing good effect.

Raymond McCartney (Sinn Féin, Foyle)

Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as a fhreagra. The Minister alluded to preventative measures in his reply to the question from the Member on the Benches opposite. Will the Minister outline whether he has received any communications from the PSNI seeking new legislation, or does it feel that it has enough legislation as it stands?