Northern Ireland Assembly, 28 February 2012

326 contributions from 61 members. The official report.

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

Before we proceed to today’s business, I advise the House that I received a letter this morning from the Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure advising that she is not in a position to make the intended statement on salmon conservation today. There will be a statement on planning issues immediately after Question Time. So, there will be only one statement to the House this afternoon.

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

The First Minister and deputy First Minister have tabled a motion to continue operation of the Department of Justice from 1 May 2012. The Business Committee has agreed to allow up to one hour and 30 minutes for the debate. The deputy First Minister will propose the motion and will have 10 minutes in which to do so. The First Minister will conclude and make a winding-up speech on the debate, and he will also have 10 minutes in which to speak.

One amendment has been selected and published on the Marshalled List. The proposer will have 10 minutes to propose the amendment and five minutes in which to make a winding-up speech. All other Members who are called to speak will have five minutes.

Martin McGuinness (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

I beg to move

That, pursuant to paragraph 8(1) of schedule 1 to the Northern Ireland Act 2009, the Department of Justice established by the Department of Justice Act (Northern Ireland) 2010 is to continue operating from 1 May 2012.

A Cheann Comhairle — Mr Speaker — it is almost two years since this Assembly requested the devolution of policing and justice responsibilities in March 2010. The transfer of responsibilities was achieved in April 2010, and few in this Assembly would now want to put the clock back. Most of us would agree that local democratic responsibility for these powers is a great improvement on unaccountable direct rule.

The First Minister and I made clear at that time that the arrangements for appointing a Justice Minister were on an interim basis and were subject to review in the light of experience.

In 2008, we first raised the mechanism of a sunset clause, which would require the reassessment of the interim arrangements by May 2012. That was given statutory force in Westminster legislation in 2009, which held up the threat of the dissolution of the Department of Justice on 1 May 2012 unless the Assembly had passed new legislation to adopt alternative arrangements or had passed a motion such as this.

The dissolution of the Department of Justice on 1 May 2012 would be a drastic eventuality; it would create considerable legal uncertainty and is to be avoided if at all possible. The prospect has understandably concentrated minds in recent months. In October 2011, the Assembly tasked the Assembly and Executive Review Committee with reviewing the initial arrangements for appointing the Minister of Justice.

Last autumn, the work of that Committee established that there were continuing differences of views between political parties on the ministerial arrangements that should apply after 1 May 2012. The Committee identified the options favoured by each party and sidelined some options that were not practical. However, the Committee was not able to make specific recommendations in its report.

After a debate on 29 November 2011, the Assembly noted the report, and the Chairman of the Assembly and Executive Review Committee concluded that the way forward is for the Assembly’s political parties to decide through the First Minister and the deputy First Minister and other party leaders.

Shortly after that debate, the First Minister and I initiated discussions with the other political parties. After extensive negotiations, which had not established a consensus between all the parties, we put a number of proposals to the participants on 10 January 2012 asking for comments within a week. We proposed that the Assembly be asked to pass a resolution extending the current arrangements for electing a Justice Minister beyond May 2012. That would be without prejudice to arrangements following the next Assembly election or the outcome of the statutory review required by the Northern Ireland (St Andrews Agreement) Act 2006.

After considering responses from the parties, the First Minister and I announced our decisions on the way forward statement of 18 January. We indicated that we would seek Executive approval to bring a resolution at the earliest opportunity to the Assembly to extend the present justice arrangements beyond May 2012.

We gave a commitment on addressing some of the Alliance Party’s concerns in relation to the effect of the Westminster legislation on the Justice Minister’s tenure of office. The statement also dealt with the future of the Department for Employment and Learning and the wider review of post-2015 institutions. The Executive recently agreed to our tabling the motion that we are debating today. It refers to schedule 1 to the Northern Ireland Act 2009, which contains a sunset clause; it also cites the Department of Justice Act 2010, which is an Act of the Assembly that established the Department of Justice.

If the Assembly passes the motion with the necessary cross-community support, it will mean that the sunset clause will not take effect on 1 May 2012. It will also mean that the arrangements for electing the Minister of Justice by parallel consent, which had been used in April 2010 and May 2011, will continue to apply after 1 May this year. Again, that is without prejudice to future consideration of the arrangements that might apply after 2015. I should add that in respect of the commitments that we gave in the way forward document, on 23 January, we wrote to the Secretary of State asking him to introduce Westminster legislation to bring the tenure of the Minister of Justice into line with all other Ministers in the Executive.

We have asked that the necessary legislation be taken forward at the earliest possible opportunity. We have also written to the Speaker committing our parties to supporting any Justice Minister elected by cross-community vote and to oppose any attempt to use the provision unique to the Justice Minister to remove him from office.

That commitment will apply pending enactment of the amending legislation at Westminster that we have asked for. I commend to the House the motion that the Department of Justice continue operating from 1 May 2012.

Alban Maginness (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast North)

I beg to move the following amendment: Leave out all after “2009,” and insert

“a second Act of the Assembly which results in the Minister of Justice being appointed by d’Hondt is brought forward to ensure that the Department of Justice is to continue operating from 1 May 2012.”

The SDLP amendment is about defending and preserving the values of the Good Friday Agreement. It calls for the appointment of the Minister of Justice by way of d’Hondt, which is the original methodology set out in the Good Friday Agreement. That agreement was endorsed by people, North and South, on this island and by an overwhelming majority. It is with that authority that the Assembly has political legitimacy. It is with the authority of the people of Ireland, North and South, who exercised their franchise in support of that agreement, which was the first time that the people of this island of Ireland exercised simultaneously their political will since 1918. That is a very important historic fact. That is the power of the Good Friday Agreement, and that is the basis upon which the Assembly is founded. All the other institutions under the Good Friday Agreement — the North/South Ministerial Council, the British-Irish Council and all of them — derive their authority from that.

The amendment reflects the kernel of the Good Friday Agreement: the principle of inclusive government and partnership between the two great traditions here of unionism and nationalism. All those who have significant political support, derived from any election, have as of right a place in government. Why should that be? As many critics claim, it does not happen in other jurisdictions. It is because of our history of exclusion, division, alienation and conflict — a conflict that created a situation in which more than 3,000 people died, several thousand were seriously injured and society was traumatised by savage political violence that nearly saw the collapse of civilised living in Northern Ireland. The agreement established the concept of inclusive government in order to establish a real and genuine partnership between Catholic and Protestant, nationalist and unionist; a partnership that would, through spilling our sweat, not our blood, bring about the conditions in which a genuine and sustained reconciliation would take place between our two great traditions and communities in Northern Ireland.

We could, as a result of this bold political experiment, transform our society and change the historical legacy of bitterness and division and hatred. Reconciliation is the objective of the Good Friday Agreement, and partnership is the means of achieving that. For those reasons, the SDLP is rightly precious about the agreement — precious in preserving its integrity. Therefore, we will criticise, and have criticised, any serious departure from the agreement, and we have warned constantly about the adverse consequences of departing from it. Some of those consequences are as yet unseen.

In this instance, we see serious departure from the agreement by way of electing the Minister of Justice on a cross-community vote instead of by d’Hondt. We see that as a departure from inclusivity and partnership. We see the misuse of the cross-community vote as a perverse political act, designed to obstruct legitimate political appointment under d’Hondt.

Gregory Campbell (DUP, East Londonderry)

Will the Member give way?

Alban Maginness (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast North)

No, I want to continue.

It was designed to exclude, initially in 2010, the SDLP, and, following the 2011 election, the UUP, from providing the Minister of Justice. The use of the cross-community vote was a naked political expedient, perversely used by the DUP and Sinn Féin to consolidate their political ascendency and to continue their political carve up in the Executive. It was, and remains, a cynical gerrymander designed to get them out of a hole and exclude the SDLP and Ulster Unionists. It certainly was not about building inclusion, and it certainly was not about developing partnership. In essence, it is anti-agreement; in spirit, it is subversive of the agreement and corrosive of the partnership ideal.

The departure from the agreement in this instance is now to be further consolidated by this motion until the next mandate. Sinn Féin says that at the next mandate it will return to d’Hondt. The DUP says that it will not and that it will actually seek to end the use of d’Hondt for everything.

Alban Maginness (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast North)

I hear somebody endorsing that view.

In fact, the DUP wants to see the end of the Good Friday Agreement, and through acts of political expediency like this and other expedient acts, it may well achieve that aim. Complicit in that gerrymander was the Alliance Party, which abandoned its principled opposition for the unprincipled seeking of office and power. Indeed, by sacrificing principle for office, it got its just reward. The Alliance Party’s servility and subjugation to the DUP and Sinn Féin is something it will live to regret.

Finally, the unintended and perverse consequence of the Minister of Justice gerrymander was the ludicrous position of the Alliance Party having two seats in the Executive with eight MLAS, the Ulster Unionists having twice that number of MLAs but only one Minister and the SDLP having one Minister but 14 seats. That made a mockery of the Executive and was so unjustifiable that even the DUP and Sinn Féin were ashamed and embarrassed by it. Unfortunately, the Alliance Party did not share that embarrassment.

In order to remedy that perversity, the DUP and Sinn Féin have decided to indulge in another exercise of political expediency and dispatch the Alliance Minister for Employment and Learning, Dr Farry, together with his Department. I have little sympathy for the Alliance Party in that situation, although I have some sympathy for Dr Farry. I remind the Alliance Party that, if you have no political compass and no political direction, you will enter into Faustian political deals. If you enter into those deals, you will get what you deserve.

Now we are told that we will end up with a so-called “proper” political balance in the Executive, brought about by another piece of political chicanery. That political expediency will produce further unintended consequences and will further corrupt our politics. The lesson is clear: do not eat the forbidden fruit and stick to the letter and the spirit of the agreement. I support the amendment.

Tom Elliott (UUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

I thank those who tabled the motion and the amendment. I will speak briefly as Chairperson of the OFMDFM Committee before I speak on behalf of the Ulster Unionist Party.

The Committee has had very limited input to the entire process. We were asked for our thoughts when the Assembly and Executive Review Committee brought forward its paper some time ago. At that stage, it was discussed at Committee. However, we decided that, because of the wider party and parties’ aspect, we would leave it to individual parties to make their responses to the Assembly and Executive Review Committee. From discussions among party leaders, we understood that, at some, stage, the matter would probably come before parties to discuss in more detail anyway. The Assembly and Executive Review Committee believed that it was, quite honestly, too much for it to try to come to a conclusion, given that the matter was to go to a much higher level.

The Ulster Unionist Party was clear in its opposition to the devolution of justice two years ago and on the reasons for that opposition, particularly the funding and carve-up issues. However, at this stage, we believe that it would be a retrograde step for the Assembly and Executive and for the overall confidence in the institutions in Northern Ireland not to continue with the Justice Department under the auspices of the Assembly and Executive.

Alban Maginness highlighted issues with the political carve-up that we, in the Ulster Unionist Party, have sincere concerns about as well. We are concerned that many of us are being, or feel that we are being, left out in the cold. However, we appreciate that the First Minister and deputy First Minister brought all parties into the discussions last month and gave us all the opportunity to put forward our views.

We also hear clearly that it is not just about the Justice Ministry; it is about the much wider impact on the Assembly and Executive. We are hearing about much wider opportunities. The deputy First Minister outlined some of those in his opening remarks, such as the broad agreement on removing the Department for Employment and Learning. I would like to hear, reasonably soon, the detail of that, because we need to give Members some opportunity for discussion, as opposed to just making it happen. That process needs to be much more inclusive.

Over the past weeks, I have listened to the Alliance Party, particularly the Justice Minister, threaten not to take up its position of Justice Minister in an attempt to pressurise the Assembly and Executive into doing something different or maybe just to hold on to the Department for Employment and Learning for its benefit. The Ulster Unionist Party, immediately after last year’s elections, brought to all-party discussions proposals that would have resolved the issues of the Justice Department and Ministry for the current term of the Assembly. That was not accepted by some parties, but we believed that we were genuine. We wanted to make a genuine contribution that, we hoped, would give some stability not only to the Department of Justice but to the running of the Assembly and Executive for the current term.

I need to refer to the running of the Justice Department since its inception two years ago. I declare a sincere disappointment in many aspects, even though I said that it would have been a retrograde step not to have it here. The Department and Minister’s administration of the part-time Reserve payment and gratuity scheme was proven to be very poor. My colleague Ross Hussey took an interest in that issue and drove it forward.

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

The Member’s time is almost up.

Tom Elliott (UUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

I am hugely concerned about how that scheme was delivered and administered.

William Humphrey (DUP, Belfast North)

I support the motion. For any unionists in the Chamber, the return of powers formerly held by the Home Affairs portfolio in the Northern Ireland Parliament was a welcome step. Better to have a devolved Minister here in Northern Ireland looking after our affairs than a transient Minister, without that level of knowledge, coming across on a part-time basis from London.

I pledge no support for, or loyalty to, the Belfast Agreement. I opposed it when I was a member of the Ulster Unionist Party; I campaigned against it, and I continue to oppose it.

Conall McDevitt (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast South)

Will the Member give way?

William Humphrey (DUP, Belfast North)

The DUP clearly advocated a cross-community election — [Interruption.]

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

Order.

William Humphrey (DUP, Belfast North)

The DUP advocated a cross-community election model before justice powers were devolved, and we support its continuation now. Justice is a hugely important and, indeed, sensitive portfolio in the Northern Ireland Executive; more than any other Department it requires cross-community support, and the people of Northern Ireland must have confidence in it. Northern Ireland is a changed and changing place with a society that is developing a more mature outlook on politics. However, confidence is the key.

If that Department was triggered by d’Hondt like the others, there would not be that confidence in Northern Ireland at this time; therefore, the time is not yet right to incorporate justice in the running of d’Hondt. The inclusion of justice in d’Hondt must be part of wider negotiations along with issues such as a reduction in the number of Departments, Ministers, Members and Committees in this place and the whole structure of government here, which, my party has continued to argue, is too big for the size of Northern Ireland and the population that we represent.

There have been difficulties in the Department, and Mr Elliott outlined some of them. However, the arrangements in the Justice Department have worked reasonably well, and, in my view and in that of my party, they would benefit from the continuation and stability of the appointment of a cross-community Minister. The motion addresses the sunset clause. The fears that we had in the past of the Department being dissolved will not be realised. Different arrangements may develop in future. However, a constitutional crisis, as happened so many times when Mr Trimble was First Minister, cannot happen again as we mature and progress.

As I have said, a local Minister with justice powers in local hands is a good thing for Northern Ireland; some people are clearly uncomfortable with that. However, the key is that we have stability and continuity as we develop as a society, as Northern Ireland matures, as politics develop, as people grow in confidence, and as the structures of this place have growing support from the people of Northern Ireland. I listened to Mr Maginness’s plea for the life support machine of the Belfast Agreement to be switched on. He must realise that the Belfast Agreement is from another time; it is from another political philosophy and leadership.

Conall McDevitt (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast South)

Like you.

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

Order.

William Humphrey (DUP, Belfast North)

Indeed, it is from another millennium. I have to say to Mr Maginness, “Hell hath no fury like a would-be Minister scorned.” He has not recovered from the fact that he is not the Minister of Justice. He knows why. The people of north Belfast would not have had confidence in his holding that position, as my colleague Mr McCausland outlined at the time.

Alban Maginness (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast North)

They have elected me four times. [Interruption.]

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

Order.

William Humphrey (DUP, Belfast North)

Therefore, I have pleasure in supporting the motion and opposing the SDLP amendment.

Raymond McCartney (Sinn Féin, Foyle)

Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. Beidh mé ag labhairt ar son an rúin agus i gcoinne an leasaithe. I will speak in favour of the motion and in opposition to the SDLP amendment. The deputy First Minister said that this is familiar territory; it is a debate that we had a number of years ago. Having worked as a member of the Justice Committee for the last number of years, I see the importance and benefit of ensuring that we have a local Department held to account by local political representatives and that we scrutinise that Department properly.

The vision, as outlined by the SDLP, would have ensured that that did not happen. I suppose that, in many ways, that is no surprise because, for a long number of years, the SDLP said that the task of trying to transfer justice and policing powers to the North was beyond us. Indeed, when it was negotiating a long time ago, it never saw that as a priority. We certainly made it a priority, and we delivered the Justice Department and a mechanism that ensured that powers were transferred.

We had a similar debate to this one in the Assembly a number of years ago, and from listening to Alban Maginness’s contribution this morning, I think that he is making the same argument. From his point of view, I suppose that his argument has not changed. The one big thing that has changed, however, is the priority that his party gives to the issue. I would like to have heard the SDLP outlining what priority it gave to this in last year’s election manifesto, and perhaps other Members will take the opportunity to do so. What priority did the SDLP give to it during the many debates and hustings and when its members went to the doors? How many doors did they knock? Did they make the issue a priority? Were they saying to the people that they should vote for the SDLP to ensure that the Justice Department is run in a different way or a particular way?

Conall McDevitt (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast South)

I appreciate Mr McCartney giving way. I am sure that he has read the SDLP manifesto and knows that that was clearly stated in it. Indeed, he will know that it was clearly stated in his party’s manifesto that this should be done by d’Hondt. What is regrettable is that he has come to the House to support a motion that goes against the pledge that he put to the people when he stood as a Sinn Féin candidate. He could support our amendment, which is consistent with his party’s manifesto.

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

The Member has an added minute.

Raymond McCartney (Sinn Féin, Foyle)

Thank you very much for the added minute, Mr Speaker, and I thank the Member for the intervention.

I was fielding a question that I was going to answer myself but you posed it instead. The people spoke, and they decided, based on the emphasis that you put on the issue versus the emphasis that we put on it, that they were against those who run a negative campaign and who are, in my opinion, negative for the sake of being negative. Let the people speak.

Alban Maginness (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast North)

We have been extremely positive.

Raymond McCartney (Sinn Féin, Foyle)

We will let the people decide.

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

Order. Let us not debate across the Chamber.

Raymond McCartney (Sinn Féin, Foyle)

Mr Maginness made a great play to the will of the people. I think that the will of the people was very clear last May. Indeed, I think that your party — [Interruption.]

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

Order.

Raymond McCartney (Sinn Féin, Foyle)

I will not go into the inner machinations of your party. The way your party came out of that election was as a result of the decisions about the way in which to run the campaign. [Interruption.]

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

Order.

Raymond McCartney (Sinn Féin, Foyle)

If we are going to say, “Let the people decide” and “Let the people speak”, I think that the SDLP should perhaps learn lessons from that.

Alban Maginness talked about people not having a moral compass. At a particular time, that suited the SDLP in this institution. We can all recall that when Séamus Mallon resigned as deputy First Minister, there was a mechanism, which was devised by the SDLP in a carve-up — if that is the type of terminology that we are going to use today — between it and the Ulster Unionists to enable him to “unresign”. I think that that was the first time in a long time in political history and perhaps in any organisation where a person one day said, “I am resigning on a point of principle” — we all knew what that point of principle should have led to — and then, like a flash out of the dark, suddenly said, “I am now ‘unresigned’”. The SDLP was comfortable with that, and perhaps for good reason: it did not want these institutions to fall. It wanted, from its point of view, to see things flourish. This is why we have this model in place.

Our position is very clear: we want d’Hondt, and we will continue to work towards it. We did not allow the Department to remain in the hands of politicians at Westminster. We wanted it in the hands of the politicians whom the people of the North of Ireland elected to do the job. That is why we will be rejecting the amendment and supporting the motion.

Chris Lyttle (Alliance, Belfast East)

I support the motion and oppose the amendment. I will begin by stating that the Alliance Party’s overriding concern since 2010 and to this day has been the devolution of policing and justice powers to the Northern Ireland Assembly. The current arrangement has successfully provided for the devolution of justice over the past 18 months and has allowed for greater accountability and more effective delivery of justice-related issues than in recent memory in Northern Ireland. Under the 2010 Act, the Assembly must now have arrangements in place for 1 May 2012 if it wishes to ensure the continued operation of the Department of Justice. It is, therefore, imperative that the Assembly find agreement on the issue; a failure to agree would be a backward step for Northern Ireland. The devolution of justice powers has enabled a Minister to be appointed and endorsed by the Assembly; no other Minister has that support and confidence under current mechanisms. The ministry of justice was appointed by the House rather than by a mechanism with the departmental work programme agreed in advance.

The devolved ministry of justice delivered the first justice Act in almost 40 years and a comprehensive youth justice review; it took difficult decisions on an unsustainable legal aid budget; and it secured agreement from the UK Home Office that all criminal assets seized in Northern Ireland would be used for crime-prevention schemes in Northern Ireland. For once, meaningful action was taken on the removal of so-called peace walls. Perhaps, most importantly, the devolution of justice has provided a platform on which enemies have stood together in the pursuit of law and order for this jurisdiction.

I understand that the SDLP opposes such progress; it claims that it is anti-agreement. I believe that the electorate has spoken on that view. The SDLP amendment calls for the Minister of Justice to be appointed under the d’Hondt mechanism. The Alliance Party is long on record as saying that it does not view d’Hondt as the best mechanism for the appointment of ministerial posts. My party has always endorsed the principle of power sharing. However, we believe that coalitions should be agreed voluntarily. If the process of agreed and voluntary coalition were used for the formation of the Executive, it would provide for more effective and cohesive government. It would reflect the very spirit of the agreement.

The Alliance Party has always believed that the Assembly should be able to demonstrate its support for all Ministers by a weighted majority, which is not possible under current arrangements — except for the Minister of Justice. It is for those reasons that we do not support the SDLP’s amendment. It is critical that the administration of policing and justice remain operational in Northern Ireland and not fall back to direct rule. I would have thought that no Member of the House would want to see powers returned to Westminster.

The Alliance Party’s aim is for the Minister of Justice and all Executive Ministers to be appointed as part of an agreed coalition with the endorsement of a weighted majority of the House. It has held consistently that d’Hondt is not the ideal way to form the Executive. The Alliance Party is also committed to playing a constructive role in a responsible review and reduction of the number of Departments and MLAs. However, that is not the issue of today’s debate, which is that of continuing the important delivery of justice in Northern Ireland. The Alliance Party, therefore, supports the motion and opposes the SDLP amendment.

Paul Givan (DUP, Lagan Valley)

I welcome the opportunity to speak on the motion. Most people will agree that the devolution of justice has worked in Northern Ireland, although I have disagreed with elements of what the Department has tried to do. Fortunately, however, because of its accountability measures, the Assembly can stop such elements. That relates to the issue of the continuity of the office of Minister of Justice when the individual who holds it is appointed by cross-community vote. In my view, that is irrelevant. Every Minister in this place is subject to the accountability measures that were negotiated at St Andrews. Therefore, the nature of the tenure of the office holder is irrelevant because of changes that we negotiated.

Through the devolution of justice, we have been able to open up an area in the Northern Ireland judicial system that needed to be examined in order to get transparency in the way in which justice agencies operate. We have done some good work, as has the Minister in reforming legal aid. Changes that were brought forward on that front were good, and the Committee for Justice supported them. Although the SDLP opposed changes in the fee structure, the Committee supported the Minister in taking forward those changes. Some Members have greater expertise on abuses of the legal aid system; they will have a better understanding of how fees were claimed and paid out. However, greater transparency in how such administration operates in different systems is a good thing for Northern Ireland. Slowly but surely, cultures in those professions are changing. That has to be welcomed.

We have also seen changes to more victims-orientated agencies in the justice systems. The Public Prosecution Service, for whatever reason, appointed a victims’ champion only within the past couple of months. I think that that was because of pressure that the Assembly was able to put on those organisations about their need to get their priorities right. Dealing with victims is an area with which people have been very unhappy, and, slowly, we are seeing changes in how those different agencies are operating and dealing with victims. That has to be a good thing.

I listened with interest to the SDLP complaints about gerrymandering and to the Ulster Unionist Party complaints about political carve-up. I say to the Members of those two parties that I know that you may not like it, but the electorate has decided to reject your two parties. That may be difficult for you to comprehend, but those days are over. You need to get used to playing second fiddle. We will not treat you in the way that your parties, when they were in the ascendency, treated this party when we were not involved. We will involve the Ulster Unionist Party and the SDLP. I think that you need to come to that recognition. It is taking a very long time for you to realise that the electorate no longer puts its trust in your parties in how this place is governed. That is difficult for you to understand and to get used to but, eventually, you will get there.

Others, particularly the Member for North Antrim, warned at the time of the devolution of justice that Armageddon was going to happen. There were prophecies of doom saying that the devolution of justice would mean that Martin McGuinness would be able to appoint judges. People were given warnings about that. It did not happen. The same warnings came out at the time of the St Andrews Agreement, when it was said that we were all going to be forced to speak Irish because of an Irish language Act. It did not happen. I think that people are realising that we have these predictions and prophecies from the Member from North Antrim that do not ever materialise.

Jim Allister (Traditional Unionist Voice, North Antrim)

Will the Member give way?

Paul Givan (DUP, Lagan Valley)

No, I will not give way.

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

Order. We should not have debate across the Chamber. A number of Members are trying to debate across the Chamber, and a number of Members want to make a contribution to this debate. If they continue, they may not be called. Allow the Member to continue.

Paul Givan (DUP, Lagan Valley)

The Member for North Antrim will have an opportunity —

Jim Allister (Traditional Unionist Voice, North Antrim)

Will I?

Paul Givan (DUP, Lagan Valley)

The electorate may not have afforded him that opportunity under the rules of the Assembly, because there is only one individual. Do not blame me for the electorate not giving your party enough votes to give you more speaking rights in this place.

I think that the way in which justice has operated in Northern Ireland has demonstrated that it can be handled maturely in the Assembly and the Executive and that it is better for the people of Northern Ireland to have it in our hands than the way it operated under direct rule. Under direct rule, we would not have had our accountability levers in our hands. I know that the Member for North Antrim wants us to have to sit idly by and be unhappy with what happens from Westminster, but we have it in our hands and in our gift.

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

The Member’s time is up.

Paul Givan (DUP, Lagan Valley)

We will hold the Minister to account for whatever action he may decide to pursue in the future.

Pat Sheehan (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. I speak in support of the motion and oppose the amendment. As we all know, the devolution of policing and justice powers and the justice ministry came about after long, difficult and complex negotiations. Was the outcome of those negotiations perfect? No, it was not perfect. We would have preferred that the Justice Minister was elected by d’Hondt in the same way as all the other Ministers in the Assembly. However, we know that that was not possible at that time.

The SDLP is aggrieved at that, because it felt that the justice ministry should have been its ministry. In his speech, Alban Maginness talked about how Sinn Féin and the DUP perversely used and cynically gerrymandered the process to exclude the SDLP. Perhaps the Member has not noticed that Sinn Féin did not benefit from the outcome of those negotiations, and, in fairness to the DUP, neither did it. He went on to say that the method of electing the Justice Minister was:

“corrosive of the agreement and subversive”.

Well, on the contrary, what happened was in the spirit of the agreement. The spirit of the Good Friday Agreement is about working together, working in partnership, solving our own problems, and being imaginative and forward looking.

I know that the SDLP has done a fair bit of grandstanding here today. However, the fact is that, in private, the SDLP admits that the only way that policing and justice powers would have been devolved was by what happened in the negotiations and the method and procedure that is used today for the appointment of a justice ministry.

Alban Maginness (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast North)

I thank the Member for giving way. He says that, in fact, the use of the cross-community vote is not a perverse act, and that it is in the spirit of the agreement. Yes, it would be in the spirit of the agreement if it was used properly, but it was used to exclude, not to include. That is the point that I am making, and that is why it is perverse and corrosive of the very values of the agreement — the values of inclusivity in government and partnership.

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

The Member has an extra minute.

Pat Sheehan (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. Thank you for that intervention. The question that the SDLP needs to answer is this: is it more important to have policing and justice powers devolved to this Assembly or for the SDLP to get the ministry? — [Interruption.]

Alban Maginness (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast North)

It is not about that.

Pat Sheehan (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

No. It seems to me that the SDLP is putting petty party interests in front of what is good for this Assembly and good for the North. What is good for the North and for this Assembly is that we have local representatives here and not some fly-by-night Minister flying in from London to administer justice powers. That is what is important.

We in Sinn Féin hope that, in the next Assembly, the Justice Minister will be elected by the D’Hondt procedure, as with all other Ministers. However, in the meantime, we support the continuation of the current arrangements and oppose the amendment.

Basil McCrea (UUP, Lagan Valley)

I rise encouraged by the debate so far. Obviously, the debate on unionist unity is going awfully well. We seem to be getting a lot of good comments coming from that direction.

I will address the SDLP’s amendment first. Alban Maginness quite rightly identified what he saw as the kernel of the Good Friday Agreement. The problem is that he has not addressed the kernel of the problem with our current arrangements, which is that we have not yet created trust or confidence so that we can select anybody in the House. It is not about individuals. It is that we seem to come down to the lowest common denominator.

With regard to the argument put forward by the Alliance Party when it trumpeted that it was the only party that had the confidence of the entire House, I feel that it rather overstated the case. There are considerable concerns about the criminal justice system and the delays. There were issues that I think even the First Minister raised when certain proposals were made about the badge of the Prison Service. There were also issues about prisoners getting out, somewhat without check. Therefore, there are lots of issues on which we do not have confidence in the way that things are moving forward.

I also want to address a point that Mr Elliott raised when he said that the Ulster Unionist Party was concerned about the proposed devolution of policing and justice. We had concerns about the Budget. When the Chief Constable attended the Justice Committee, I heard him ask:

“Will the Executive stump up another £25 million for me into the next comprehensive spending review (CSR) period or will we simply remove a significant chunk of neighbourhood policing?”

There were and are legitimate concerns about the funding of our criminal justice system and our police service that have not yet been addressed.

I move on to the rather interesting position put forward by Mr Humphrey. That seemed to be some sort of personal attack. It did not seem to be a point of principle. We could do d’Hondt at some stage in the future but only if we got a number of other things sorted out. This is just another dirty deal. There is no principle at stake.

I am disappointed that the Chair of the Committee for Justice, Mr Givan, has not stayed in the Chamber to get a rebuttal to his arguments. When you dish it out in the Assembly, you should stay to face to music. You should be able to stand over your argument, to take interventions and to argue your point. Where is the Member from Lagan Valley to take on the debate, which you, Mr Speaker, rightly said that we should conduct through you and in the proper manner? It appears that we cannot do that.

What we really have here is the putting forward of an argument through which certain Members are trying to confuse the people. They are trying to say that black is white and that day is night. They are trying to tell us that we have consensus that this is the right way forward and a good thing. That is absolute nonsense. We have not yet resolved the key issues in front of us. If we genuinely want to have peace and reconciliation, and if we want to build on the tenets of the Good Friday/Belfast Agreement — that agreement was about genuine participation, genuine inclusion and genuine working to resolve our difficulties — this is not the right way to go about it. We need to have the debate not just in this bit of the Chamber but in all parts of the Chamber. We want to have that discussion.

I have been waiting to hear whether any Members from this side of the Benches wanted to take me on in the debate. However, I can see none who proffer themselves —

John McCallister (UUP, South Down)

Will the Member give way?

Basil McCrea (UUP, Lagan Valley)

I will indeed.

John McCallister (UUP, South Down)

Thank you, Mr Speaker. [Interruption.]

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

Order.

John McCallister (UUP, South Down)

Building on my colleague’s argument: does he think that this is entirely the wrong way to do business? To end up with policing and justice powers, we had to undergo a crisis in the Executive, and as the Member rightly pointed out, the First Minister threatened to resign. We had a situation in which the Executive did not meet for 150 days. We had crisis talks at Hillsborough and the 14 snowmen of the DUP, who had all the spine of a tadpole.

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

The Member has an extra minute. [Interruption.] Order.

Basil McCrea (UUP, Lagan Valley)

Thank you, Mr Speaker. It is interesting, is it not, that the tone of this debate started off rather negatively.

Peter Robinson (DUP, Belfast East)

[Interruption.]

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

Order.

Basil McCrea (UUP, Lagan Valley)

Mr Speaker, I am willing to give way to the First Minister if he wishes to address — [Interruption.]

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

Order. Allow the Member to continue. [Interruption.] Order.

Basil McCrea (UUP, Lagan Valley)

Thank you, Mr Speaker. It is interesting that we are having a rather ill-tempered debate, when we are meant to have everything resolved and fixed and are just going to carry on. I find that rather incredulous. Surely if we are to have a proper debate, we should have had matters sorted out by all parties beforehand in a proper, democratic, open and transparent way. The UUP will reluctantly not push this —

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

The Member’s time is almost up.

Basil McCrea (UUP, Lagan Valley)

Absolutely, Mr Speaker. We will reluctantly not push this position. We find ourselves in a situation in which to do right for the country means that we have to put certain things aside. [Interruption.]

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

Order.

Basil McCrea (UUP, Lagan Valley)

But the issues will not go away.

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

Order.

Colum Eastwood (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

At the outset, I want to say that we, as a party, are keen to engage in a debate about the future structures of this Assembly. However, we insist that that is done with the principle of power sharing and reconciliation at its heart. That has not been the experience of the process to date. We have seen the refusal to accept the principle of power sharing and d’Hondt by those leading the Executive.

It is clear that the continued gerrymandering that surrounds the Justice Department is both anti-agreement and against the spirit of the agreement. Our view is clear: the only way to bring about the fair allocation of the justice ministry is through the process of d’Hondt. That process was not only in our manifesto but in Sinn Féin’s manifesto. As it stands, no one on this side of the House can be Minister of Justice; in other words, no nationalist need apply.

I will turn to the issue of the other Departments. It is the SDLP’s stated view that we should review the number and configuration of the Executive Departments. It is clear that the Department for Employment and Learning is being abolished not because it is not the best way of delivering for the ever-increasing number of unemployed young people in this society, but to continue the cosy carve-up of Departments in the Executive.

The Assembly and Executive Review Committee has begun a full review of Parts III and IV of the Northern Ireland Act 1998. We believe that that process should be used to decide any future make-up of the Executive and the Assembly. Any change to the structures of this House should be done with the principles of good government in mind, rather than perpetuating a discriminatory model for the appointment of the justice ministry or any other ministry.

In 1998, the people of Ireland, North and South, voted for the Good Friday Agreement. Whether people in this House like it or not, that is what happened. That mandate still stands, and it should be respected. The proposal at hand runs contrary to the wishes of the people of Ireland. During the debate it has also been claimed that the SDLP opposes the process only because we want the justice ministry. The fact is that we would not get the justice ministry if we ran d’Hondt for all the Departments. The SDLP’s opposition to the proposal is about good government and the principles of power sharing. I support the amendment.

Stewart Dickson (Alliance, East Antrim)

The failure of others cannot be blamed on the Alliance Party. We are doing a job, and we are doing it well for all the citizens of Northern Ireland. The d’Hondt mechanism does not afford the Assembly the opportunity to endorse nominations. The best vote possible is a cross-community vote, to which no one would take exception. Others are welcome to put their names forward, but only one will be chosen. In this particular case, this House has shown its endorsement of the Alliance Party nominee for the position of Minister of Justice. That is way things are at this point. The moral compass that guides the Alliance Party is one of cross-community support and of voluntary coalition in this House, not enforced and contrived mechanisms. As my colleague has clearly stated, the Alliance Party will support the motion and oppose the amendment.

Jim Allister (Traditional Unionist Voice, North Antrim)

It has been almost two years since policing and justice powers were devolved. To some, that might seem like several political z this House who told us that aeons would have to pass before policing and justice powers were devolved. Then, one cold day in Hillsborough, Sinn Féin put their backs against the wall and threatened them that there would be no more Assembly and no more chauffeur-driven cars unless they caved in. They caved in spectacularly, as the snowmen and all melted away, and, once more, Sinn Féin got its way in this House and got the powers that were going to be so many political lifetimes away suddenly devolved in that sordid deal that was Hillsborough.

We were promised, of course, that there would be a momentous amount of money to help things, and that £800 million was coming our way. Where is it? I probed in the Budget debates last year, but the Finance Minister could not tell me where the £800 million was. Last night, I sat in a meeting of 200 people who were fighting to save their police station in the village of Broughshane because of cuts. Where is the £800 million that was going to save policing and justice and do all things marvellously well in that regard? That is another part of the con that attended all that.

How has it worked out? It has worked out so well that, at one point, the First Minister threatened to resign over the actions of the Justice Minister, who, surreptitiously, was going to destroy the symbols and the name of the Prison Service and had to be called to book by the First Minister.

Now he wants to reappoint him.

Of course, this is a post for which no unionist need apply: pure and simple. Again, this is part of another deal with Sinn Féin and the DUP. It is not part of any negotiations in any real sense between parties in the House but part of a negotiation between Sinn Féin and the DUP in which, again, the compliant beneficiary will be the Alliance Party. Of course, it is going through the motions as best it can, pretending that it is not really saying that it will take the Department. Who do they think they are kidding, Mr Speaker? Everyone knows that David Ford is itching to be reconfirmed as Justice Minister, whatever the party might pretend about having to be persuaded because it is not happy that Dr Farry is being made a sacrificial lamb. It says that it may not take the post and that its very important central council will have to meet and decide and that everything is very much up in the air. Nonsense: everyone knows that the Alliance Party is guaranteed to take it.

Tom Elliott (UUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

I thank the Member for giving way. He makes an issue of the Alliance Party taking or not taking the justice ministry. If the Alliance Party were not to take it and it were offered to the honourable Member for North Antrim, would he be interested?

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

The Member will have a minute added to his time.

Jim Allister (Traditional Unionist Voice, North Antrim)

There is as much chance of that as there was for the snowmen at Hillsborough.

We were told today by Mr Humphrey, I think, that the appointment is a great Belfast Agreement-busting device. Who does he think he is kidding? He is an implementer, as all on those Benches are, of the last jot and tittle of the Belfast Agreement. The tripartite stool still exists: the mandatory coalition, the joint First Ministers, the executive North/South bodies, the very essence of the Belfast Agreement — [Interruption.]

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

Order.

Jim Allister (Traditional Unionist Voice, North Antrim)

All the things that the DUP once eschewed and said that it could never, never, never accept are the very things that it implements day and daily. As a prop to implementing them — [Interruption.]

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

Order.

Jim Allister (Traditional Unionist Voice, North Antrim)

— it had to agree the transfer of policing and justice at Sinn Féin’s behest. It agreed that to continue to prop up the very essence and substance of the Belfast Agreement. Anyone who thinks about it can see right through the transparent nonsense that has been talked by many in the House about policing and justice and can see that, again, we are headed down a road that underwrites that which Sinn Féin demands. What Sinn Féin wants, it gets. It got it in the House on policing and justice. Some say that I got it wrong: certainly not. I got it right — [Interruption.]

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

Order.

Jim Allister (Traditional Unionist Voice, North Antrim)

— on the powers of policing and justice. That is why the DUP belatedly had to run scurrying to get changes made to the 2009 Act. It was asleep at the wheel and could not see and could not read what was in the 2002 Act and the 2004 Act and had to get it changed because —

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

The Member’s time is almost up.

Jim Allister (Traditional Unionist Voice, North Antrim)

— I drew its attention to it. That is why some of the powers that are now going back for review were taken out in the 2006 Act. [Interruption.]

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

Order. The Member must be heard.

Jim Allister (Traditional Unionist Voice, North Antrim)

It may well be reviewed back in.

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

The Member’s time is up.

Gregory Campbell (DUP, East Londonderry)

I am glad to be able to participate in this low-key and uncontroversial debate. I am also glad to be able to refute some of the utter nonsense that we have just heard from the man who was elected on the ninth count in North Antrim. First, I will deal with some issues of more substance.

In moving the amendment, the honourable Member for North Belfast Mr Maginness somewhat churlishly would not give way when I asked him to. I wanted to ask him what exactly had happened in the past 12 to 18 months or two years that would amount to the caving in of all that he claims had been secured some 14 years ago. Of course, given that I was not able to ask him because he did not give way, I did not get the opportunity to get an answer. However, the substance of the Department of Justice is the issue at stake. Who the person will be after the Assembly’s decision on the Department is not the issue at stake; we will come to that another day. The issue is the principle of the Department of Justice.

A number of people have misquoted and misunderstood what has been said in recent years about the Department of Justice. It may not be the first time — it remains to be seen whether it will be the last time — that the former Member for West Belfast and now TD for Louth, Gerry Adams, and the Member for North Antrim, Mr Jim Allister, sing off the same hymn sheet. On the day that Mr Adams left this Assembly to seek pastures new in the Irish Republic — we wish him good riddance in his exodus from Northern Ireland — he made allegations in this Building that are similar to those made by Mr Allister. He said that the DUP had said that it would be light years and political lifetimes before we would agree to the devolution of justice. He said that I had said that. Not only did I never say that, but no one else on these Benches ever said that. [Interruption.]

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

Order.

Gregory Campbell (DUP, East Londonderry)

We said that it could be a political lifetime before a member of Sinn Féin would be a Minister of Justice, yet the former Member for West Belfast and the present Member for North Antrim seemed to overlook that. However, those are the current facts, and they will be the facts post-May 2012. That is the position, and that is the way it is.

We have to try to work through the next five years, which will take us to a point beyond 2016, when some people talked about a centenary that would mark an event that they thought would transform politics on this island. Well, we shall see if they are transformed. Hopefully, they will be transformed in a good way so that Northern Ireland, with a Minister of Justice, can co-operate with another country to the south of it and work to defeat terrorism and dissident republicans and any others who try to disrupt and defeat the will of the people in Northern Ireland. That is what a Minister of Justice needs to do, whoever that person may be.

We need to ensure that the principle of establishing the Department is in keeping with the underlying principles that underpin this Assembly, whether it is done through d’Hondt or through a cross-community vote. There seem to be some within nationalism who have not only a loyalty to d’Hondt but an obsession with it, even though, as a process, it appears on many occasions to run counter to cross-community consensus.

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

The Member’s time is almost up.

Gregory Campbell (DUP, East Londonderry)

I believe that we are moving in the right direction. We need to keep on moving, and, unfortunately, those who were wrong in the past will be proven wrong again.

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

Order.

Steven Agnew (Green, North Down)

The Green Party supports the SDLP amendment. As we have made clear all along, we believe that the justice portfolio should be treated like any other. We need to make a decision in this Assembly: do we want normal politics, or do we not? Can we work together, or can we not? Is this a time of peace, or is it not? Are parties in the Assembly fit to govern, or are they not? We heard the DUP leader, the First Minister, say in his party conference speech that we must normalise politics in Northern Ireland. Today, however, he presides over a motion that seeks to keep abnormal politics in the way in which we elect the Justice Minister compared with the way in which we elect every other Minister.

Chris Lyttle (Alliance, Belfast East)

I thank the Member for giving way. What is so normal about d’Hondt? Is that the only mechanism that can deliver power-sharing government?

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

The Member has an extra minute added to his time.

Steven Agnew (Green, North Down)

I appreciate the Member’s question because it allows me to clarify our position. It is not that my party and I think that d’Hondt is great, but we oppose appointing every other Minister by d’Hondt and treating the Justice Minister differently. We should have one system. I do not believe that the position of Justice Minister requires any special mechanism.

As I said, it is about normalising politics in Northern Ireland. Why is the current system as it is? It is clear, as we have heard from comments across the Chamber today, that the system is designed to keep “them” out. For each Member, “them” might be somebody different. On the DUP Benches, it might be about keeping Sinn Féin out; on the Sinn Féin Benches, it might be about keeping the DUP out. It is us-and-them politics. Again, I refer to the First Minister’s party conference speech, in which he said that we must move beyond us-and-them politics. I absolutely agree, so let us do it. Let us not talk about it; let us do it and appoint the Justice Minister in the same way as we appoint every other Minister.

It is clear what the system is designed to do. I find it strange that the Alliance Party — a party that, since its inception, has campaigned against us-and-them politics and against seeing Northern Ireland as a divided society — now props up a system that, as I say, is designed precisely to keep “them” out.

Chris Lyttle (Alliance, Belfast East)

I thank the Member for giving way again, and I will put the question to him again: how does the d’Hondt mechanism move us beyond us-and-them politics into inclusive, agreed coalition politics, which is the very way in which the Justice Minister is being appointed?

Steven Agnew (Green, North Down)

The current arrangement has been designed for a particular reason — to keep “them” out. With d’Hondt and the Good Friday Agreement or the St Andrews Agreement — I do not see a huge difference but whatever — any party that gets a sufficient number of votes can take up positions in the Northern Ireland Government, and that should be the case. If we are ready to move forward into proper democracy in Northern Ireland, we should not constantly tweak the system just to ensure that the people whom we do not want to get certain positions do not get them.

My final point is that, as has been said, there seems to be a certain amount of self-interest in the system, with the DUP and Sinn Féin not wanting their nearest and dearest rivals to take up certain positions. We have seen it with party political donations. We talk about Northern Ireland moving forward and normal politics. We say that there is enough peace for us to pull down the watchtowers, take soldiers off the streets and run democratic institutions, but, because of security risks, we cannot tell the electorate who donates to political parties.

As I said at the start of the debate, the Assembly needs to make a decision. Is politics moving forward? Do we want normal politics? Do we want to work together? If the answer is yes, we need to support the SDLP amendment and change the system whereby we seek to keep “them” out.

Conall McDevitt (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast South)

I thank all Members who spoke. This is an important debate. We tabled the amendment because it deserved to be aired. We need to hold up a light to let the public see what is really going on: a political deal between a party that could not see a nationalist in power and one that would not have a unionist. That is what is going on. This is an agreement built on self-destructive prejudice. In a compromise to keep this place ticking over, they have had to resort to an agreement that is totally at odds with the will of our people.

I am a republican, and at the very heart of any republican’s tenets and philosophy is the principle that sovereignty lies with the people — not here or in any other place, but with the people. They make the big decisions. The last time the people were tested on how we do government around here, on how we pick our Government and on the shape and structures of that government was when the Good Friday Agreement was put before our people. [Interruption.]

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

Order.

Conall McDevitt (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast South)

The people spoke. The DUP did not win that argument, but I suspect that, as democrats, they accept the outcome of that referendum. The agreement is pretty clear. Paragraph 3 of strand one says:

“The Assembly will exercise full legislative and executive authority in respect of those matters currently within the responsibility of the six Northern Ireland Government Departments, with the possibility of taking on responsibility for other matters as detailed elsewhere in this agreement.”

The agreement goes on to tell us, in strand one, that the Executive will be appointed by d’Hondt. Then, in a special separate chapter dealing with policing and justice, the agreement, in paragraph 7, tells us the following:

“The participants also note that the British Government remains ready in principle … to devolve responsibility for policing and justice issues.”

The people of Northern Ireland were asked whether they agreed with that, and they said yes. They did not agree to it being done in any other way.

Peter Robinson (DUP, Belfast East)

Yes, they did. We have had elections since then.

Conall McDevitt (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast South)

No, they did not, because it is not — [Interruption.]

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

Order. Allow the Member to continue.

Conall McDevitt (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast South)

An election for a republican is a permission to shape the structures within the framework given by the people. No republican has the right to alter the basic decisions made by the people in a referendum. That is not republicanism; it is a different type of government. It makes me very sad —

Martin McGuinness (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

Will the Member give way?

Conall McDevitt (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast South)

I will.

Martin McGuinness (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

Since the Member has flagged the Good Friday Agreement and talked about the will of the people, maybe he will tell us why, during the debate about the transfer of powers on policing and justice, not one of Fianna Fáil, Fine Gael, Labour or the Progressive Democrats — all parties that are overwhelmingly representative of the people of the South of Ireland — criticised the agreement made by Peter Robinson and me at Hillsborough. In fact, we were applauded for the agreement that we reached, not just by them but by President Obama and the president of the European Union. Can the Member explain why the SDLP finds itself at odds with all other republicans?

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

The Member has an extra minute.

Conall McDevitt (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast South)

Thank you very much, Mr Speaker. Mr McGuinness sought to be the president of my nation, and he will know that his first and fundamental duty would have been to uphold Bunreacht na hÉireann: the constitution. He will know that, when a political agreement is reached that affects the institutions of that jurisdiction, it is not the politicians who get the final say, it is the people. I find it regrettable that anyone would depart from that principle. That is the basis on which we should do government around here.

I would like to make a couple of other points. Five of the seven parties represented in the Chamber today said yes to the agreement. Yet, today, we hear that the Alliance Party has become a sort of post-agreement party, one that accepts the agreement in a whole new way that was not what the people were asked to vote on. In the same way, it seems to do post-feminism. In the same way, it says that it is all for equality, unless it requires affirmative action. Well, as the famous feminist philosopher is kind of often known to say: post-feminism will work in a post-patriarchy. Post-agreement politics will work when we do not hear some of the stuff that we heard from the Benches opposite — a sort of unveiled prejudice, an obvious discriminatory tone, a harking back to a bygone era of a lost and long-gone place of majoritarianism.

We can build a new North, but we have to build it on solid foundations. The only solid foundations available to us are those given by the people. If we stay by the people and support the amendment, we will do them and this institution a service.

Peter Robinson (DUP, Belfast East)

We have now had two years’ experience of devolved responsibility for policing and justice. The historic steps that the Assembly took in 2010 have been justified by that experience. The challenge of the new responsibilities has been fully met.

Last year, the Assembly enacted a major Justice Act, the first time in 40 years that a locally accountable, democratic institution had done so. Significant reforms have been embarked on — for instance, in the field of legal aid — supported by the Executive. A local Justice Minister is now answerable to this House. The Department of Justice is closely scrutinised by the Assembly’s Justice Committee. Indeed, the synergies between the work of the DOJ and other Executive Departments such as the Department of Education and the Department for Social Development are being exploited in joined-up policymaking. It is about democratic ownership and democratic accountability for justice and policing powers. It is right that it should continue.

It would have been good to achieve cross-party consensus on the justice arrangements that will apply after May 2012. The Assembly and Executive Review Committee tried to achieve that last autumn. The deputy First Minister and I again tried to bring the parties together in negotiations. After those discussions, we put forward our own proposals, based on what we believed would achieve the widest support, and we then consulted all the parties. None of the other parties made alternative proposals that could command wider consensus than those that we had tabled. That is why the deputy First Minister and I issued ‘The Way Forward’ on 18 January. In that statement, a package of decisions addressed, first, the immediate future of the justice arrangements with the imminent application of the sunset clause. Secondly, it committed us to action on specific difficulties that the Alliance Party had identified in the current arrangements. Thirdly, it offered a solution to the anomaly in Executive representation created by having a specific arrangement for appointing a Justice Minister side by side with the d’Hondt system for other Executive Ministers. Fourthly, it promised early movement on the review of the operation of the institutions after 2015.

An amendment to the motion has been tabled. It is important that the motion be passed without amendment if the criterion for forestalling the operation of the sunset clause is to be met today. The amendment was not unexpected. Since the deputy First Minister and I first agreed alternative arrangements back in 2008, those who tabled the amendment and their party colleagues have been blinkered in their support for the application of d’Hondt to the appointment of a Justice Minister. Suggesting, as some SDLP Members have, that appointing a Justice Minister by a free vote of the Assembly on the basis of obtaining cross-community support is undemocratic is, frankly, barking mad. It is hard to imagine a more democratic process.

Also, it has to be said that the SDLP seems to have a perverse view of what a mandate is. I notice that there are young people in the Public Gallery today who are watching our proceedings. I would not want any of them to go away with the view that, somehow, democratic mandates ended in 1998 and that a decision taken in 1998 is binding for all time. Mandates come with elections. At each election, the people vote, and the people decide whether there should be changes. The people have had the opportunity to endorse the new proposals that we have put forward, and they have decided that they should endorse those proposals. That is what a mandate is: an opportunity for people, freely at the ballot box, to make those decisions.

Alban Maginness (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast North)

The mandate is there; that is the mandate.

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

Order.

Peter Robinson (DUP, Belfast East)

The Member waves at me a document that was written in a previous millennium. He seems to think that that document is like the law of the Medes and Persians: it changeth not. The electorate is supreme; the electorate decides when there are changes to be made. It is about time that the Member’s party recognised what democracy is about and what a mandate really means.

It also has to be said that there is another view. It is one that has little public support and popularity in the community as a whole. However, we have to acknowledge that there is that other view, one that dissents from having policing and justice devolved to the Assembly at all. Admittedly, it is not a sensible or fashionable view, but it is held by a very few representatives throughout Northern Ireland and by less than 1% of our Assembly. The House will not want to waste much time on this matter, but it is worth noting that for years this same source of scaremongering predicted doom if policing and justice powers were devolved. First, he claimed that the DUP was ushering Gerry Kelly into office as Justice Minister. He got that wrong. Then, he alleged that Martin McGuinness would get control of the judiciary. Again, he got that wrong. Next, he asserted that policing and justice would become subject to the North/South ministerial process. Once more, he got it wrong. Then, he declared that Martin McGuinness, rather than the Justice Minister, would appoint members of the Policing Board. Again, he got that wrong. Nobody in the House speaks with less credibility on policing and justice than the dissident Member for North Antrim. Happily, the people of Northern Ireland are comfortable with the process that we have put in place, and, happily, the people of North Antrim put the Member in his box as he squeaked through there on the ninth count on DUP surpluses.

I believe that we have a balanced and workable way forward. We have shown maturity and have made progress on matters that eluded those who went before us. I commend the motion to the House and urge the House to resolve accordingly.

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

Before we proceed to the Question on the amendment, I advise Members that it requires only a simple majority. If the amendment is made, the vote on the motion, as amended, will also require only a simple majority. However, if the amendment falls, the vote on the motion, as it stands on the Order Paper, will require cross-community support in accordance with paragraph 8(2) of schedule 1 to the Northern Ireland Act 2009. I know that this is complex, but I will remind the House as we go through the process. I will now put the Question on the amendment, which requires only a simple majority.

Question put, That the amendment be made.

The Assembly divided: Ayes 13; Noes 78

AYES

Mr Agnew, Mr D Bradley, Mr Byrne, Mr Dallat, Mr Durkan, Mr Eastwood, Mrs D Kelly, Mr McDevitt, Dr McDonnell, Mrs McKevitt, Mr A Maginness, Mr P Ramsey, Ms Ritchie.

Tellers for the Ayes: Mr Byrne and Mr Eastwood.

NOES

Ms M Anderson, Mr S Anderson, Mr Beggs, Mr Bell, Mr Boylan, Ms Boyle, Ms P Bradley, Mr Brady, Mr Buchanan, Mr Campbell, Mr T Clarke, Mr W Clarke, Mrs Cochrane, Mr Copeland, Mr Craig, Mr Dickson, Mrs Dobson, Mr Douglas, Mr Easton, Mr Elliott, Dr Farry, Mr Flanagan, Mr Ford, Mrs Foster, Mr Frew, Mr Gardiner, Mr Girvan, Mr Givan, Mrs Hale, Mr Hilditch, Mr Humphrey, Mr Hussey, Mr Irwin, Mr G Kelly, Mr Kennedy, Mr Kinahan, Ms Lewis, Ms Lo, Mr Lunn, Mr Lynch, Mr Lyttle, Mr McCallister, Ms J McCann, Mr McCarthy, Mr McCartney, Mr McCausland, Mr McClarty, Mr B McCrea, Mr I McCrea, Mr McElduff, Mr M McGuinness, Mr D McIlveen, Miss M McIlveen, Mr McLaughlin, Mr McMullan, Mr McNarry, Mr McQuillan, Mr P Maskey, Mr Molloy, Lord Morrow, Mr Moutray, Mr Murphy, Mr Nesbitt, Ms Ní Chuilín, Mr Ó hOisín, Mrs O’Neill, Mrs Overend, Mr Poots, Ms S Ramsey, Mr G Robinson, Mr P Robinson, Mr Ross, Mr Sheehan, Mr Storey, Mr Swann, Mr Weir, Mr Wells, Mr Wilson.

Tellers for the Noes: Mr W Clarke and Mr G Robinson.

The following Member voted in both Lobbies and is therefore not counted in the result: Mr Allister.

Question accordingly negatived.

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

I will now put the Question on the motion. This vote requires cross-community support.

Main Question put.

The Assembly divided: Ayes 78; Noes 13.

AYES

NATIONALIST:

Ms M Anderson, Mr Boylan, Ms Boyle, Mr Brady, Mr W Clarke, Mr Flanagan, Mr G Kelly, Mr Lynch, Ms J McCann, Mr McCartney, Mr McElduff, Mr Mzz McGuinness, Mr McLaughlin, Mr McMullan, Mr P Maskey, Mr Molloy, Mr Murphy, Ms Ní Chuilín, Mr Ó hOisín, Mr O’Dowd, Mrs O’Neill, Ms S Ramsey, Mr Sheehan.

UNIONIST:

Mr S Anderson, Mr Beggs, Mr Bell, Ms P Bradley, Mr Buchanan, Mr Campbell, Mr T Clarke, Mr Copeland, Mr Craig, Mrs Dobson, Mr Douglas, Mr Easton, Mr Elliott, Mrs Foster, Mr Frew, Mr Gardiner, Mr Girvan, Mr Givan, Mrs Hale, Mr Hilditch, Mr Humphrey, Mr Hussey, Mr Irwin, Mr Kennedy, Mr Kinahan, Ms Lewis, Mr McCallister, Mr McCausland, Mr McClarty, Mr I McCrea, Mr D McIlveen, Miss M McIlveen, Mr McNarry, Mr McQuillan, Lord Morrow, Mr Moutray, Mr Nesbitt, Mrs Overend, Mr Poots, Mr G Robinson, Mr P Robinson, Mr Ross, Mr Storey, Mr Swann, Mr Weir, Mr Wells, Mr Wilson.

OTHER:

Mrs Cochrane, Mr Dickson, Dr Farry, Mr Ford, Ms Lo, Mr Lunn, Mr Lyttle, Mr McCarthy.

Tellers for the Ayes: Mr W Clarke and Mr G Robinson.

NOES

NATIONALIST:

Mr D Bradley, Mr Byrne, Mr Dallat, Mr Durkan, Mr Eastwood, Mrs D Kelly, Mr McDevitt, Dr McDonnell, Mrs McKevitt, Mr A Maginness, Mr P Ramsey.

UNIONIST:

Mr Allister.

OTHER:

Mr Agnew.

Tellers for the Noes: Mr Eastwood and Mrs McKevitt.

Total votes 91 Total Ayes 78 [85.7%] Nationalist Votes 34 Nationalist Ayes 23 [67.6%] Unionist Votes 48 Unionist Ayes 47 [97.9%] Other Votes 9 Other Ayes 8 [88.9%]

Main Question accordingly agreed to.

Resolved (with cross-community support):

That, pursuant to paragraph 8(1) of schedule 1 to the Northern Ireland Act 2009, the Department of Justice established by the Department of Justice Act (Northern Ireland) 2010 is to continue operating from 1 May 2012.

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

The Business Committee has arranged to meet immediately upon the lunchtime suspension. I propose, therefore, by leave of the Assembly, to suspend the sitting until 2.00 pm. The first item of business after lunchtime will be Question Time.

The sitting was suspended at 12.28 pm.

Francie Molloy (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

Question 8 has been withdrawn and requires a written answer.

Cathal Ó hOisín (Sinn Féin, East Londonderry)

1. asked the Minister of the Environment whether, in discussions with the Association of British Insurers, he has raised or will raise the question of why it will not divulge information about profits and losses, as it deems such information to be commercially sensitive. (AQO 1417/11-15)

Alex Attwood (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast West)

I thank the Member for the question. As I previously indicated to the Assembly, I have two streams of conversation going on with the Association of British Insurers. One relates to further legislative and administrative means in respect of training and post-qualification around novice drivers. The second piece of work, being taken forward with the Law Society of Northern Ireland, the insurers and the Consumer Council, to which I spoke this morning, relates to bearing down on costs. One of those factors is that the insurers will not let the profits and losses for their business be known generally, including here in Northern Ireland. I find that unacceptable. I have no doubt that they have that information, and I believe that it should be shared. Given the higher costs of insurance in the North of Ireland, historically and currently, particularly in rural areas, I believe that it is a matter of public confidence that they share that information.

Cathal Ó hOisín (Sinn Féin, East Londonderry)

Go raibh míle maith agat, a Príomh-LeasCheann Comhairle. Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as an fhreagra sin. Does the Minister agree that access to such data is paramount and that we should address the issue of high insurance premiums and the data across different areas in the North? I think particularly of my area in the north-west, where premiums are incredibly high. Does he agree that we need to look at that?

Alex Attwood (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast West)

As I indicated in my opening answer, I very much agree. That is why I met the chief executive of the Association of British Insurers in London when, because of the work of the Office of Fair Trading and the subsequent work of the Consumer Council, the matter became more visible and more public in the latter part of last year. A week later, I met his representatives in Belfast. They agreed that they would work with me and others in the two strands of work that I outlined. The purpose is to consider how, if there is a downward trend in overall car insurance premiums in the North, we are going to push it further and how we are going to interrogate the higher premiums in rural areas, in particular, not least in the north-west . I completely concur with all the Member’s comments.

John Dallat (Social Democratic and Labour Party, East Londonderry)

Does the Minister agree that young people across the North feel absolutely ripped off by insurance companies? Given his recent research on the issue, are there any proposals that he might make to alleviate the problem for our young people?

Alex Attwood (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast West)

The purpose of the two streams of work is to bear down on insurance premiums generally, including those for novice drivers. One of my staff in DOE told me recently that, for Christmas, she gave her son a month’s insurance on the car. The cost of an annual premium was prohibitive, but the Christmas present to her son was a month’s insurance for the car to enable him to improve his driving skills and have a bit more mobility. It is an acute situation.

The first of my two streams of work is to consider whether we can introduce further measures beyond those already agreed by the Executive that might improve driver safety, especially for novice drivers, in a way that will work itself through in insurance premiums. I have not concluded my judgement on those matters, but among the issues that we have to consider is whether novice drivers should have restrictions on those whom they can carry in their vehicle. That is the case in Australia, New Zealand, Canada and other parts of the world, where there are restrictions on novice drivers about whom they can carry and the age of person they can carry because the evidence is that the likelihood of a serious accident escalates if a novice driver has other young people in the car. We have to interrogate all those options, which is what I am doing. That work will be finished in the next four weeks. At the same time, we have to look at all the wider reasons why insurance premiums are higher here, not least whether some insurance companies are profit grabbing and whether there is a lack of competition in the North because of not having enough insurance companies, and any other measures that might lead to reduced premiums for all drivers.

Mike Nesbitt (UUP, Strangford)

Will the Minister inform the House whether he ascertained at his meeting with the chief executive of the Association of British Insurers or elsewhere whether the data he seeks has been made available to the devolved Administrations of Wales and Scotland?

Alex Attwood (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast West)

I did not ask that particular question. However, the fact that a five-month piece of work has been ongoing with the Law Society, the Consumer Council and the association means that that matter will be on the radar and the agenda. To date, the association has not shared the data with us. It has relied on commercial sensitivity. The Office of Fair Trading clearly had access to some level of information that led it to conclude that, over recent years, insurers have not made underwriting profits but have made profits from other work associated with their business. I note the Member’s point. It will be on the radar.

Brenda Hale (DUP, Lagan Valley)

2. asked the Minister of the Environment to outline his Department’s responsibilities in relation to the conservation of Hillsborough village. (AQO 1418/11-15)

Alex Attwood (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast West)

I thank the Member for her question. Hillsborough is a very scenic town. I confirm that a large parcel of land in the village is in a conservation area. Ninety-nine buildings in the greater Hillsborough area are listed. There are severe restraints on what can and cannot happen in a neighbourhood, given the outline of PPS 6 in respect of planning, archaeology and our built heritage. The listing of buildings, the conservation zone and grant aid, when that becomes available, are mechanisms to sustain the unique character of Hillsborough village and its worth.

Brenda Hale (DUP, Lagan Valley)

Does the Minister agree that greater emphasis should be placed on restricting vehicular activity to ensure that the environment and built heritage of the conservation area are offered greater protection?

Alex Attwood (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast West)

I am sure that the Member will agree that the biggest initiative in respect of managing traffic in Hillsborough has been the bypass and the dual carriageway to Newry. I remember going to the national hunt races in the Republic of Ireland with my father when I was a young child. At that stage, you had to go through Hillsborough, Dromore, Banbridge, Poyntzpass and every other village between Belfast and Dublin. So, there has been vehicular intervention to moderate traffic. If there are proposals, those should be raised with the relevant Minister: the Minister for Regional Development. If there are better mechanisms to manage traffic in Hillsborough, I am sure that the Minister and his Department will apply their minds to that.

In respect of DOE responsibility, I have indicated that the village has great history, heritage and listed buildings. A survey of all the listed buildings in the Lisburn City Council area, of which there are over 200, was recently conducted. In the fullness of time, there may be proposals to delist or to list buildings as a result of a second survey of those properties. However, at all times, my Department will be informed by the need to protect the built heritage. That is part of what provides quality of life, not least for the people of Hillsborough, and part of the tourist appeal of Northern Ireland. It is a crucial element for exploiting tourism.

Basil McCrea (UUP, Lagan Valley)

That is all very well, Minister. However, Mrs Hale’s point still pertains: a huge amount of traffic, including large articulated lorries, goes through the scenic village of Hillsborough, destroying not only the environment but the quality of life there. We seem to be in a no-win situation. We cannot get the help that such a village deserves. We need somebody to look into the matter, and I ask that you do so.

Alex Attwood (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast West)

I am the Environment Minister; I am the planning Minister. I may stretch the competency of my office at times, and, at times, I am certainly glad to do so. In fact, there might be some examples of that in very recent times. Nonetheless, I have to respect other Ministers’ authority. Responsibility for roads management primarily falls to your party colleague Mr Danny Kennedy. So, I trust that you will raise the matter with him, as I will.

Mitchel McLaughlin (Sinn Féin, South Antrim)

What funding is available to enhance building facades in conservation areas?

Alex Attwood (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast West)

I thank the Member for his question, which deals with an important issue. The Member knows the quality of the built heritage in the city of Derry/Londonderry. The single biggest asset under state influence on the island of Ireland is the walls of Derry. That is very important. What money is available? Grants are available for relevant categories of listed building. The amount that is available is 35% of building costs and 75% of professional fees. The Member might be aware that the previous Minister reduced the grant aid to £50,000 because of the budgetary situation that, in his view, prevailed in DOE at that time. I have increased the level to £150,000. That has been applicable in the latter part of the current financial year, and it will be applicable in the next financial year.

Behind the question, there is a significant point of principle and policy; namely whether, if built and natural heritage are part of what contributes to quality of life and makes it worthwhile and are important for tourism, growth and jobs, we will find ways and means to protect, develop and enhance the built heritage, not least in the city of Derry and in anticipation of the year of culture. That is why, last week, I went to Derry at the invitation of my colleague Mr Eastwood. I met a lot of people there to interrogate whether there are potential opportunities in respect of a number of projects around the city in which my Department could help towards preparations for 2013. I hope that I will be able to do so.

Francie Molloy (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

Question 3 has been withdrawn.

Willie Clarke (Sinn Féin, South Down)

4. asked the Minister of the Environment for his assessment of how local councils are performing in relation to providing residents with opportunities to avail of allotments. (AQO 1420/11-15)

Alex Attwood (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast West)

I thank the Member for his question. Provision in respect of allotments is contained in legislation from the old Stormont Parliament — the Allotments Act (Northern Ireland) 1932 — which was amended in 1985. It gives district councils the ability to provide allotments in their area. Since 1985, that has been without the Department’s consent. The consequence of that is that, in 2010, 497 allotments were made available though eight councils. By 2012, that had increased to 602 allotments through 11 councils. I welcome that direction of travel. However, it raises the question of why, as we speak, 15 councils in Northern Ireland do not provide allotments. Many councils that have provided allotments in recent years have not been able to provide more than they do already. Carrickfergus is the best example of a council that provides allotments. It provides 189 of the total of 602 allotments.

Therefore, to answer the question on how councils are performing, I will say that there is a mixed record. Some councils have performed for a long time. Three councils have come on board in the past couple of years. Eleven councils still do not provide any allotments at all. The principle of more allotment provision by more councils is one that, I am sure, everyone would endorse.

Willie Clarke (Sinn Féin, South Down)

Go raibh maith agat, a Phríomh-LeasCheann Comhairle. I thank the Minister for his answer. I am sure that he agrees that clear health and well-being benefits are associated with allotment provision. However, allotment provision by councils or local authorities is voluntary. Will the Minister consider introducing legislation to make it a statutory duty on councils to provide allotments, which is the situation across the water?

Alex Attwood (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast West)

The question is well timed. Given that we are in the process of local government reorganisation, that various pieces of legislation will come before the Assembly over the next 18 months or so, as an answer to a subsequent question will confirm, and that reorganisation will offer opportunities as well as threats and challenges — I would be neglectful if I did not refer to them — it is timely to consider whether we can, in the context of reorganisation, build further duties for councils into the law for local government. Councils might not forgive me for saying that. Some complain that they will have more responsibilities, such as the high hedges legislation — an order relating to fees will come before the Assembly shortly — but inadequate resources to take on those responsibilities. Councils might make that point in respect of the Member’s proposal. Nonetheless, I confirm that I will look at whether there are further mechanisms, including legislative ones, that will build more opportunities for allotments into the life of local councils, especially post RPA.

In the meantime, I will not be a Minister who hides from granting approval to councils when they come to local arrangements with communities on the use of local land. One of my first acts as Minister was to approve proposals from Newry and Mourne District Council to transfer land or buildings to the local community for that community’s use. I believe that there are opportunities for local councils to exploit that mechanism. Indeed, my Department wrote to all councils referring to the Newry and Mourne model as one of best practice and so on and so forth. We should use moneys and land assets for greater community benefit. Whether it is —

Francie Molloy (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

Time, Minister.

Alex Attwood (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast West)

Whether for allotments or other interventions, I support them.

Ross Hussey (UUP, West Tyrone)

I should begin by declaring an interest as a councillor and vice-chairman of Omagh District Council. Perhaps the Minister would advise what other opportunities his Department has to open up market gardening in green areas to the public?

Alex Attwood (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast West)

I have to be mindful that I am the Minister of the Environment but do not run the local councils. Local councils would be quick to advise me about the limits of my competence. Having said that, I have advised councils that, on a wide range of issues, be they to do with sharing or collaboration, the direction of reorganisation or tender practice, I will be encouraging and, maybe, directive when it comes to how they conduct their affairs, which is consistent with my legislative competence. Councils are bodies corporate, and I do not have the authority to impose my will on them, much as I wish it were so at times. My response to Mr Clarke was that the RPA creates the capacity for councils to be more agile in doing new and better things differently. That includes, potentially, their use of community land. I will enable councils to transfer land or property to community organisations, which might involve more favourable rents than the market value, and I will encourage greater general discussion in the Department on community benefits, including, for example, community benefit and social clauses in contracts and renewable planning applications. Subject to all of that, I will stretch the limits of my office.

Joe Byrne (Social Democratic and Labour Party, West Tyrone)

Does the Minister agree that the allotments policy is a worthwhile initiative by district councils? Is the Minister happy that all councils are consistent in how they deal with allotment allocations, and is he considering issuing general guidelines to them?

Alex Attwood (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast West)

As I said in answer to an earlier question, compared with England, there is the demand for but not the provision of allotments. The Minister of Finance and Personnel has a long-standing interest in community gardening and allotments, and very good he is at it too, I gather — [Interruption.] It is what?

Mitchel McLaughlin (Sinn Féin, South Antrim)

That is enough digging.

Alex Attwood (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast West)

Councils need to look at the evidence that I will place in the Assembly Library. It shows that 11 councils do not yet make provision for allotments, and three came on board in recent years. However, there has not been a great increase in the number of allotments being made available. I appreciate that there might be logistical issues with the ownership of land and so on, but the figures are quite stark and provide a challenge to all the councils that have not yet come on board. When will they do so?

Steven Agnew (Green, North Down)

The issue across the region and in my constituency in the — you will pardon the pun — patchy provision of allotments is a lack of political will rather than a lack of available space. North Down is blessed with plenty of good parkland and green space.

Francie Molloy (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

Question.

Steven Agnew (Green, North Down)

What work can NILGA do to promote the good practice that exists in some councils to try to bring other councils on board?

Alex Attwood (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast West)

On the one hand, NILGA, the National Association of Councillors, SOLACE and all the other management and councillor representative organisations have a responsibility to encourage the better use of allotments. However, it seems to me that quite a number of Members in the Chamber are still double-jobbing. There are at least 30 of them. None of those Members is sitting behind me, and, after his decision, Mr Clarke will not be among them in the near future. It falls to the 30 Members who are double-jobbing to take back the message from the Assembly that Mr Agnew has just articulated: what are councillors who are also MLAs doing to ensure that there are more allotments in the councils that currently provide them — if that is possible — and what are councils that do not provide allotments going to do? I will work with councillors, MLAs and representative bodies to get more allotments over the line.

Cathal Boylan (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

5. asked the Minister of the Environment what legislation he intends to introduce in this calendar year on the reorganisation of local government. (AQO 1421/11-15)

Sammy Douglas (DUP, Belfast East)

9. asked the Minister of the Environment to outline the steps that need to be taken to progress the review of public administration. (AQO 1425/11-15)

Alex Attwood (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast West)

I thank the Minister for his question. [Interruption.] Sorry. I hear that there is a reshuffle coming, so you might be lucky yet.

Sue Ramsey (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

Is that in your party?

Alex Attwood (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast West)

I am sure that there could be one in my party as well.

Mr Principal Deputy Speaker, may I take this question with question 9 from Mr Sammy Douglas? I do not intend to go through all the history and rehearse my party’s view and my view, as a Minister, on local government reorganisation. However, I have said — I said it at the NILGA conference last week — that I am a believer in fundamental reform of the North of Ireland. I believe that reform has served us well, even though it was difficult and there was resistance. I also believe that we need a new phase of reform that will include local government. I may have a view on how local government should be shaped and how many councils there should be, but I do not deny or in any way discount the need for fundamental reform.

In taking forward and managing that process, a draft local government boundaries order will be laid before the Assembly in the near future. That will outline the shape of the 11 new councils, and, because it will be subject to the affirmative procedure, it will be a matter for discussion in Committee and in the House. It may be that parties, councils and others will have views on what local government boundaries should look like beyond those tabled in that order. A Local Government (Reorganisation) Bill will be tabled in the autumn that will put into law the transition from 26 councils to 11 councils. That Bill will also create statutory transition committees; embed ethical standards regimes in the new councils; empower councils, in the event of RPA, with community planning and well-being powers; and so on and so forth. It will be extensive legislation and, because the Executive have agreed, it will also ban double-jobbing from 2015. There will also be a suite of subordinate legislation, but I will not go into that at this time.

Cathal Boylan (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

Go raibh maith agat a Phríomh-LeasCheann Comhairle. I welcome the Minister’s response. I have been called many things, but never “Minister”. Will the Minister ensure that the Committee is given the proper time to scrutinise that legislation? Towards the end of the previous mandate, the Committee found that the scrutiny of Bills was rushed through. Will you please afford the Committee that time?

Alex Attwood (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast West)

I absolutely will afford the Committee and the Assembly the time to interrogate this. It is, as I keep saying, a once in a political lifetime opportunity to remodel local government in a better image. That is clearly desirable and needed, even if we may fight about some fundamental issues of detail. There will be adequate time. However, we also need to be mindful that we do not have for ever. Although the RPA issue may have gone on in perpetuity, we now have a deadline for shadow council elections in May 2014, with the councils going fully live in May 2015 or thereabouts. Therefore, while that provides more than adequate time to get all the legislative and policy issues dealt with — there are big issues, not least around questions of assets and liabilities, human resources and all the rest — we need to apply our minds to get this over the line, if that is the will of the Assembly, in due course.

Sammy Douglas (DUP, Belfast East)

In light of the Minister’s speech to NILGA last week, will he confirm that when people voted in 2011 they elected councillors for a four-year term and that those councillors will remain, regardless of whether they hold an alternative mandate, as representatives for the entirety of the term?

Alex Attwood (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast West)

Yes, I am pleased to confirm that because this is a hybrid situation that could end up in a bit of a muddle. If councillors who are elected in shadow form in May 2014 are MLAs at that time, they will be entitled to continue as MLAs and councillors until May 2015, when the double-jobbing ban will kick in. That is because the shadow councils, as of May 2014, are only shadow and do not have full legal authority until a year later. The hybrid situation will continue until then.

Nevertheless, while I have not raised the issue at Executive level, I may yet be minded to put into the Local Government (Reorganisation) Bill, as part of the double-jobbing ban, the capacity to commence that section of the Act earlier than 2014. If we are to deal with double-jobbing in principle and in law, it falls to political parties to deal with it in policy and in practice and to do so when the situation arises and to encourage that direction of travel. That is why, as of April this year, MLAs who remain as councillors or councillors who are Members of the House of Commons or the House of Lords will have their council allowances, including special responsibility allowances, reduced by two thirds. I think that those are the right principles and that that is the right practice, and I hope that all parties will endorse and act on them.

Sandra Overend (UUP, Mid Ulster)

I thank the Minister for his interesting responses so far. Will the Minister provide an update on the findings of the policy panels, which looked into RPA in the previous mandate, and whether their work will be carried through?

Alex Attwood (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast West)

Yes, we will provide the Committee for the Environment with further details on the work of the policy panels, and, yes, their work will be carried through. That is why I have written to all the councils, encouraging them and asking that the voluntary transition committees are now re-established in order to take forward all the strands of work that were initiated a number of years ago. Very good work was done, indeed. In addition, a regional transition committee, chaired by me and with representatives of each transition committee, will be established in order to show political leadership and to ensure consistency of practice as we take forward the difficult and different strands of work. Eventually, all that work will be captured by statutory transition committees when the Local Government (Reorganisation) Bill becomes law. A further phase of work will be taken forward by the statutory transition committees in the run down to the councils going live in 2015.

Joe Byrne (Social Democratic and Labour Party, West Tyrone)

1. asked the Minister of Finance and Personnel how much of the £842 million expected from the sale of assets has been realised. (AQO 1431/11-15)

Sammy Wilson (DUP, East Antrim)

Before I answer the question, I will, as I seem to have to do regularly in the Chamber, correct an SDLP Member on a question that they have asked. I want to correct the Member on two points. First, the amount of additional revenue that the Executive had planned to raise over the Budget period was not £842 million; it was £900 million. Secondly, the £900 million did not refer purely to asset sales. It also referred to other revenue-raising measures, such as the increase in the regional rate to allow for inflation, the plastic bag levy and additional finance from the housing associations and Belfast port.

As I explained yesterday in the Budget debate, since we are less than one year into the Budget, it is too early to draw conclusions on the delivery of capital receipts. Around £600 million worth of capital receipts are planned in the Budget, many of which have been built into the departmental figures and will be up to the Departments to deliver. The one thing that I can say is that, to date, we have not had any indications from Departments that the capital receipts that they had put into their budgets — apart from one or two minor ones — have not been realised.

Joe Byrne (Social Democratic and Labour Party, West Tyrone)

I thank the Minister for his answer, and I note the figures that he has used. Are we still on track to try to realise all the proceeds over the mandate, and if not, will any capital projects be put in jeopardy?

Sammy Wilson (DUP, East Antrim)

We are not planning for failure. The SDLP seems to love the prospect of failure and plans for it all the time. Indeed, it seems to eulogise failure. We are not planning for any failure at all on this. Departments have made commitments, and their budgets are predicated on delivering certain capital receipts. I have drawn to the attention of the Assembly already that, at present, the only one on which we have fallen behind somewhat has been the £100 million that is to be realised by the assets management unit. This year, £1·5 million out of £10 million has been realised. We are building in the possibility that £8·5 million will have to be carried over to next year. Of course, that does not mean that the money has been lost. It simply means that those receipts will have to be realised next year rather than this year, and we have been able to deal with that pressure in the monitoring rounds.

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. Will the Minister accept that, given that we are in an extremely difficult investment environment, the Executive should also be mindful of the opportunities to release land through lease or means other than asset disposal and sale? That could assist in developing employment opportunities and, in doing so, could meet some of the Programme for Government targets.

Sammy Wilson (DUP, East Antrim)

As the Member will know, the asset management unit has still got work to do in looking at all the possibilities regarding surplus assets. It will look at what assets we have and at what revenue we can raise from those. If possibilities come along where, rather than selling the asset at the bottom of the market, it can be leased to raise money in that way, all those kinds of things should be looked at by Departments. This year, we had £141·9 million worth of receipts. The only ones that have informed me that they have not realised that are the Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure (DCAL), where £2 million from a sale has not been realised, and the Assembly Commission, where £1·4 million that was hoped to be raised from the sale of assets has not been realised either.

David Hilditch (DUP, East Antrim)

Minister, you mentioned Belfast port. What progress has been made on planned receipts from the port?

Sammy Wilson (DUP, East Antrim)

The planned receipts from the port were £20 million in each of the past two years of the current Budget period. That will require some legislation, and the Department for Regional Development (DRD) is working on that. Indeed, regular updates are brought to the Budget review group.

Michelle McIlveen (DUP, Strangford)

2. asked the Minister of Finance and Personnel to outline any discussions he has had with HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC) about its approach to recovering outstanding tax liabilities from businesses in Northern Ireland. (AQO 1432/11-15)

Sammy Wilson (DUP, East Antrim)

By way of background: I received a number of representations from local businesses in recent months regarding the approach of HMRC in recovering debt. The suggestions were that HMRC had hardened its attitude. I also had a meeting with the insolvency practitioners who indicated that they, too, were concerned about the number of insolvencies that resulted from petitions from HMRC. I had a meeting with the Exchequer Secretary, David Gauke, who arranged a meeting for me with the director of debt management and banking in HMRC. I was given assurances that there had been no change in policy. However, I pointed out to him the evidence on the ground, and as a result of that meeting, we will now have closer liaison with HMRC on those issues. We will, hopefully, get early warning of any changes, and where we believe that unfair or harsh decisions have been made by HMRC, we will have direct contact with it to draw those cases to its attention.

Michelle McIlveen (DUP, Strangford)

I thank the Minister for his answer. Will he outline the number of bankruptcies and company liquidations petitioned locally by HMRC?

Sammy Wilson (DUP, East Antrim)

The worrying thing has been that, over each of the past four years, on average, 55% of petitions that have led to bankruptcies for companies in Northern Ireland have been brought forward by HMRC. Hence, I believed that it was necessary to have the conversation that I did and to look at what might be done to ensure that we had direct links into HMRC. I do not want to discuss the business of individual companies in the Assembly, but I have had a number of cases where, quite clearly, businesses had short-term liquidity difficulties that were made even more difficult by decisions made by HMRC not to allow time to pay.

Dominic Bradley (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Newry and Armagh)

Go raibh maith agat, a Phríomh-LeasCheann Comhairle. What is the Minister’s approach to recovering outstanding rates liabilities from businesses in Northern Ireland in the present economic situation?

Sammy Wilson (DUP, East Antrim)

There probably is a bit of leeway there, Mr Principal Deputy Speaker, but I am quite happy to outline the approach that we, in the Department, and Land and Property Services have taken. As far as we are concerned, we have a duty to collect debts. I do not know whether the Member wants me to take a more lenient or a more robust approach to this, but members of the SDLP usually highlight the amount of outstanding rates debt.

This Assembly cannot have it both ways. If we wish to pursue rigorously the level of debt, it will mean that we pursue individuals and companies to the point where we take them to court and perhaps even drive them towards a situation in the way that I have just described HMRC doing. If we take a very lenient attitude, debt will increase. We tried to take a very balanced approach in so far as we have sought to work with companies and individuals who have run up debts because they are unable to pay their rates. We give them every opportunity, and we try to make arrangements with them. One of the difficulties is that they do not come quickly enough to talk about their problems. However, ultimately, given that we do not want to send out a signal that you can simply decide not to pay a legitimate debt that you have incurred as a result of owning property, where we find that people are not co-operating, we will have to pursue it to court.

Paul Maskey (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

Go raibh maith agat, a Phríomh-LeasCheann Comhairle. Is the Minister in a position to state how much large multiple retail stores, for example, pay to the revenue authorities for their operations here in the North?

Sammy Wilson (DUP, East Antrim)

I do my best to prepare for these question sessions, and I have a big black book with answers in it that, at times, makes me appear more intelligent than maybe I am. I am afraid that I do not have the detail that the Member has asked for in my big black book and, therefore, I cannot give him an answer. However, I will endeavour to find out the answer for him.

Basil McCrea (UUP, Lagan Valley)

I do not know whether this is in the big black book either, Sammy, but do you have any data comparing the level of business tax arrears in Northern Ireland with that in the rest of the United Kingdom?

Sammy Wilson (DUP, East Antrim)

I raised that with HMRC officials, who told me that about the same level of debt recovery through court action pertains in the rest of the United Kingdom as pertains here. Indeed, they indicated to me that they had similar discussions with the Scottish Minister recently, and were able to say that the same approach was being used in Scotland.

David McIlveen (DUP, North Antrim)

3. asked the Minister of Finance and Personnel, in light of the decreased spend on external consultants in 2011-12, how he plans to reduce their use further in the future. (AQO 1433/11-15)

Gerry Kelly (Sinn Féin, Belfast North)

14. asked the Minister of Finance and Personnel whether he has plans to reduce further the use of external consultants by the Civil Service. (AQO 1444/11-15)

Sammy Wilson (DUP, East Antrim)

I will take question 3 along with question 14, Mr Principal Deputy Speaker.

The total spend on external consultancy across Departments was less than £16 million. That is a reduction of £56 million from the level that was reported in 2007-8. Of course, the Executive are committed to reducing the amount of spend on consultants by 10% per year. Last year, the reduction was actually 39%. We have proposed to do that in a number of ways. The first is by setting the target. The second is by requiring that any consultancy spend above £10,000 has to be approved by Ministers. What that has done to the number of applications that have been made is significant. Thirdly, Ministers can lower that threshold within their Departments if they see fit.

David McIlveen (DUP, North Antrim)

I thank the Minister for his answers so far. Does he ever foresee a day when we could do without consultants full stop? Does he envisage that that day could be sometime in the future?

Sammy Wilson (DUP, East Antrim)

It has to be borne in mind that we will always require some consultancy in any public body. First of all, there will be occasions when the expertise does not reside within a Department. Secondly, it may be a one-off piece of work, in which case there is no point in bringing in the expertise and employing someone full time in the Department, because that expertise will never be used again, so you would be tying up resources. We try to get consultancy spend down as much as possible. Indeed, in some consultancy contracts, when we know that we are going to require the same kind of information or the same skills again, we actually build into the contract a requirement for the consultants to train people within Departments so that we do not have to go back to the same consultants again. However, I do not envisage a situation in which we do not have any consultants.

I have just been passed a note. I thought that I had said a 56% reduction, but it seems that I said it was a £56 million reduction. It is a 56% reduction. If I got that wrong, I want to put it on the record.

Mike Nesbitt (UUP, Strangford)

Is the Minister confident that he has maximised the potential for shared working in that area with the Special EU Programmes Body (SEUPB)?

Sammy Wilson (DUP, East Antrim)

The Special EU Programmes Body extensively uses consultants. Indeed, almost on a weekly basis, I query consultancy spend by the SEUPB. It would appear that much of that consultancy spend is a result of requirements that are laid down by Europe itself. When it comes to particular projects, they need to do economic assessments on them, etc. I do not have the figure off the top of my head. If I had known that the Member was likely to ask the question, I would have loved to put the figure into the public domain. It is too high. I am told that it is high because of requirements that are laid down by the funding body, namely the European Union. Sometimes I think that the SEUPB must be a consultancy dream when it comes to spend.

David McNarry (Independent, Strangford)

Following on from David McIlveen’s supplementary question, does the Minister think it may be necessary to review Civil Service and public service job descriptions to perhaps include qualifications that might have heretofore been lacking? Improving on that might reduce the need for consultants.

Sammy Wilson (DUP, East Antrim)

As I said in an earlier answer, when we see the need for a consultant and we think we will need that expertise again, we ask the consultant to train our own staff to build up the kind of skill set that the Member is talking about. We also look around Departments. It may be that a Department has done some work, and there is liaison between finance officers and that Department. If that Department has brought in consultants who have done some work, and there has been learning, that knowledge can be transferred and used by another Department, rather than bringing in consultants. I think that, in those ways, we will drive the figures down. Of course, if we know that we are going to do certain pieces of work, and there are vacancies, why not put that into the job description as the Member has suggested?

Sue Ramsey (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

I take this opportunity to welcome the work that the Minister has been involved in. It is a good-news story that we are targeting overspend on consultants. A 56% reduction is nothing to be sneezed at. You probably do not have the figures here, Minister —

Francie Molloy (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

Question.

Sue Ramsey (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

Can you give us a breakdown to see where the 56% reduction cuts across all the Departments?

Sammy Wilson (DUP, East Antrim)

As far as I can remember, there may have been a written answer to a Member about the reduction across Departments. The first thing to say is that it is not even across Departments, but I cannot think of any Department where we have not seen a reduction. Some have been more successful than others.

Barry McElduff (Sinn Féin, West Tyrone)

4. asked the Minister of Finance and Personnel to outline his Department’s strategy for the decentralisation of public sector jobs. (AQO 1434/11-15)

Sammy Wilson (DUP, East Antrim)

There is no central programme or strategy for the decentralisation of public sector jobs. Individual Departments, of course, can look at the distribution of their staff, where they are employed, and will make decisions about location on the basis of business need, value for money and affordability.

Barry McElduff (Sinn Féin, West Tyrone)

Go raibh maith agat, a Phríomh-LeasCheann Comhairle. The Minister will know that in the interests of balanced economic development, I favour greater decentralisation to towns like Omagh and Strabane. I ask the Minister to provide an update, in the meantime, on the promotion of home and remote working options for civil servants who travel in excess of 50 miles a day to their place of work. I am not referring to myself.

Sammy Wilson (DUP, East Antrim)

Departments use flexibility in deciding where to locate workers and what working practices they use. Hot-desking, the better use of resources, different office layouts, etc, have all been ways in which we have reduced the amount of money spent on the estate. Indeed, this year, my Department has reduced the budget for the cost of the Civil Service estate by, I think, nearly £2 million as a result of making better use of those resources. When individuals make applications to work from home, if possible, I am sure that each Department will make a judgement on the basis of whether it offers value for money and whether it means that the Department’s work can be properly carried out. I do not have figures on how many people are engaged in that kind of activity.

William Humphrey (DUP, Belfast North)

The Minister will be aware that north Belfast has many wards that score high in deprivation indices. I ask the Minister whether any Departments are considering relocation to parts of Belfast other than the city centre, or, indeed, to other parts of Northern Ireland.

Sammy Wilson (DUP, East Antrim)

Of a total of 217,000 jobs in the public sector, 71,000 are located in Belfast, which indicates that there is a fair number of public sector jobs already in the city. To be frank, I am not so sure that people cannot travel from north Belfast into the city centre. If we get to the point where we indulge people to the extent that they have a job at the end of their street, rather than have to do a bit of travelling, we really could not sustain that.

Colum Eastwood (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

I am sure that the Minister will say that I am painting a very gloomy economic picture, but anyway, I will give it a go. Given the very high levels of unemployment in my constituency, will the Minister tell me how many jobs he or any of his Executive colleagues have decentralised to Derry?

Sammy Wilson (DUP, East Antrim)

I assume that the Member is speaking about Londonderry. We have no plans to decentralise jobs. As I said, the Executive are not pursuing a central strategy. It is being done on the basis of where Departments see opportunities and take decisions based on affordability and value for money. I do not think that any Member would be prepared to defend a decision by any Minister whereby jobs were relocated simply on the basis that it might help employment in a Member’s constituency, if such a decision were to cost a fortune and not make sense in a time of economic austerity.

Jim Allister (Traditional Unionist Voice, North Antrim)

Will the Minister inform the House whether his Department has oversight of or control powers for the redistribution of public sector jobs by other Departments, bearing in mind the cost that is often involved? If his Department has such oversight, will he take on board concerns about the Department of Education and the Education and Skills Authority, which are that plans are being prepared to transfer jobs out of Rathgael House but not transfer the corresponding jobs that are in Londonderry?