Northern Ireland Assembly, 12 June 2012

514 contributions from 69 members. The official report.

Executive Committee Business

Martin McGuinness (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

I beg to introduce the Inquiry into Historical Institutional Abuse Bill [NIA 7/11-15], which is a Bill to make provision relating to an inquiry into institutional abuse between 1945 and 1995.

Bill passed First Stage and ordered to be printed.

Alex Attwood (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast West)

I beg to move

That the draft Local Government (Boundaries) Order (Northern Ireland) 2012 be approved.

The order is made under section 50 of the Local Government Act (Northern Ireland) 1972, which stipulates that it must be laid in draft and approved by resolution of the Assembly. The purpose of the draft order is to give effect, with modifications, to the recommendations of the Local Government Boundaries Commissioner. The commissioner, as Members will know, recommended the boundaries and names of the 11 districts that are listed in section 1 of the Local Government (Boundaries) Act (Northern Ireland) 2008 and the number, boundaries and names of the wards into which each district is to be divided.

Members will be aware that my recommendation late last year to the Executive was a 15-council model, under which there would have been greater recognition of local character and identity, upfront costs would have been less, and the logistical and management issues would have been eased. However, as Members are also aware, the Executive voted in favour of an 11-council model. In doing so, they agreed two modifications to the commissioner’s recommendations. They are outlined in the statement of reasons for modifications of the recommendations of the Local Government Boundaries Commissioner, which was laid in the Assembly along with the draft Order.

The two modifications relate to the boundaries between the new Belfast district area and the new Lisburn/Castlereagh district area, one at Galwally and one at Ballyhanwood. The modification at Galwally places the Forestside shopping centre and the building that serves as Castlereagh Borough Council’s headquarters in the new Lisburn/Castlereagh district rather than in the new Belfast district, as recommended by the commissioner.

At Ballyhanwood, two undeveloped fields have been moved from the new Belfast district to the new Lisburn/Castlereagh district, as any future development on this site is likely to be in keeping with land use at the Dundonald leisure park. Neither modification has an impact on the electorate in the two affected local government districts, although they will have an impact on the citizens and communities of those areas. No residential properties move in the Ballyhanwood modification, and only 10 residential properties move as part of the Galwally modification.

I also circulated a paper to Executive colleagues on a further modification at Warrenpoint. I understand that my proposal to the Executive had wide political support in the relevant area and had community endorsement; however, when my paper was circulated, the Office of the First and deputy First Minister (OFMDFM) advised me that the boundaries had been settled and that, as a consequence, the door was closed on my proposal.

The review of public administration (RPA) was launched by the Northern Ireland Executive almost 10 years ago. After numerous delays to the reorganisation of local government, the history of which is well known here and outside, it is now time to take forward the Executive’s decision. Although I have made my view clear on the issue of the number of councils, it is not inconsistent with my view that Northern Ireland needs a new phase of radical reform, protecting the reform achievements of the past 45 years, learning from the benefits of reform over those years and deepening reform across a wide section of public policy that includes, in my view, local government and local government reform.

In order to advance the reform agenda and to enable me to manage the Executive decision, which is my ministerial responsibility, I have established implementation structures to manage reorganisation. To name a number and to assist progress, I have appointed a regional transition committee (RTC), which I chair, to act as a mechanism for reform implementation and to allow elected members to provide high-level political leadership. I have established a regional transition operational board, comprised of government officials and council officers, to support the RTC and to co-ordinate the operational delivery of reform.

I have set up nine task-and-finish working groups to focus on the key areas of transferring functions: finance; human resources; legislation; pilots and community planning; programme delivery; communications; and system convergence. I have asked the voluntary transition committees to reconvene and to begin the preparations for convergence. Along with the statutory transition committees and shadow councils, when established, those reform structures will help to ensure that the 11 new councils are fully equipped to take up office after the next local government elections.

Beyond the politics of local government, the operation and practice of the reform of local government is a significant undertaking. In my view, it is a matter of regret that the once in a lifetime opportunity presented by RPA at this stage will not see the transfer of many significant functions from central government that would be better suited to local government, save that of planning. However, planning and the transfer of planning tell a tale, in that in a short period of three years, which is still adequate time, local councils will become the local planning authorities. Getting that right with resourcing, capacity, management, architecture, and to change the culture of local councils and councillors from being planning lobbyists, which is a proper and legitimate function of councillors, to being a planning authority responsible for planning decisions, local development plans and community planning, is the measure of what we need to achieve over the next three years.

The making of the boundaries order is a step in the creation of the 11 new councils and a development that can create stronger, more effective local government that will deliver improved outcomes for everybody. Ultimately, that has to be the measure of what we are doing. Does the reorganisation of local councils create better, stronger, more effective, more accountable, better value and more efficient local councils that better reflect the interests and needs of those who we serve, citizens and ratepayers?

The agreement of the new council boundaries and number of wards also provides me with the opportunity to consider the position of councillors. I acknowledge their commitment in an environment that is demanding and carries risks. For many years, they provided a voice on behalf of the people, and continue to do so. I have said in the Chamber, and say again, that during the years of terror and civil conflict, councillors were the front line in maintaining and advancing democratic practice across the North. They did so, at times, at great personal cost, including risk to themselves and their families, and with great courage and, very often, with great integrity. As you will recall, Mr Speaker, they also did so with very little remuneration or income most of the time. They were heroes and heroines in a very dangerous civil conflict. Those who stood and held the line for democratic practice, accommodation and the best values to inform the development of this society deserve our appreciation and respect. I will be making a statement to the House before the summer about how to take forward recognition of councillors who are stepping down in the event of RPA and about severance arrangements in order to recognise their years of service, courage and the role they played in representing the needs of people, especially those most in need.

Circumstances in respect of the life of a councillor are changing and our Government is evolving. Today — we heard some of this yesterday — we have a consensus that it is not appropriate for an elected representative to hold more than one elected position. I took the first step in addressing that issue in April of this year, reducing by two thirds the allowances — basic and special responsibility — of councillors who hold another elected position. I also understand that, further to the work of the Commission’s review of remuneration of Members, as of July this year, the reduced allowances that councillors now enjoy will be further adjusted with regard to their MLA income, reducing that third that is now in place by a further half.

Peter Weir (DUP, North Down)

On a point of order, Mr Speaker. I am sorry to interrupt the Minister in full flow. Although I am keen to debate MLAs and councillors’ pay to our hearts’ content, with the greatest of respect, is this not straying quite a distance from the business before the House, which is the Local Government (Boundaries) Order (Northern Ireland)?

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

Order. It is certainly the Minister’s prerogative. It is the Minister’s statement, and I think we should allow the Minister to continue.

Alex Attwood (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast West)

It is not common practice for a Member to object to good news. I can imagine what would happen if I were to give bad news. On this occasion, if the Member will listen further, he might consider, on behalf of his council colleagues, that this might be good news.

Roy Beggs (UUP, East Antrim)

On a point of order, Mr Speaker. In raising that point of order, should the Member have declared an interest? Perhaps someone has pressed the point that he is concerned about losing some money.

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

Order. Allow the Minister to continue.

Alex Attwood (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast West)

If that is the principle, Mr Speaker, I anticipate that up to 30 Members will have to declare an interest should they choose to contribute to the debate. Up to 30 Members remain as councillors. That is their democratic choice, and it may or may not reflect the interests of the people who elected them. Those who continue to be councillors and MLAs need to get their head around that principle and decide whether that best serves the House, their local councils and the community that elected them.

The Executive have agreed proposals for the next stage in the process to deal with the issue of MLAs who are also councillors. There will be a statutory bar on a councillor holding more than a single elected position. I intend to include these provisions in a local government reorganisation Bill, which I propose, subject to Executive agreement, to introduce to the Assembly in the autumn.

When the previous Executive considered the planned reduction in the number of councils, they agreed to provide severance for outgoing councillors. The proposed ban on double-jobbing, and the adjustments already introduced to the allowances and special responsibility payments of MLAs who are councillors, provide a fresh backdrop against which I can give further consideration to severance for councillors who feel that it is time to step down. That will provide an opportunity for fresh hands to take up the reins and shape the policies of future councils. As I said, I shall bring a statement to the House before the summer recess.

The Executive have agreed that the functions that are to transfer from central government to local government should be fit for purpose, sufficiently resourced and rates neutral at the point of transfer. I stress those three principles: fit for purpose, sufficiently resourced and rates neutral. I reassure local councils and give a personal undertaking that those principles will be honoured. It will be shallow and shoddy practice if we end up with a situation in which the transfer of functions is done on the cheap in a way that is hostile to the authority of local councils and the interests of local citizens and communities, and, meanwhile, central government holds on to the resources and funds that should be appropriate to transfer to local councils in the event of reorganisation.

These principles — fit for purpose, sufficiently resourced and rates neutral at the point of transfer — cannot be compromised. Given that planning is the most significant function to be transferred, I will judge myself and the transfer of planning against those three standards. Otherwise, come RPA, on the day when councils begin to roll out development plans or make decisions on planning applications, there will not be the resources, capacity or personnel to ensure that that is done in a way that is consistent with the needs of communities, including local businesses.

I am also aware that the timing of the reinstatement of the voluntary transition committees did not enable councils to make the necessary financial provision to support them when striking the rates for the current year. Therefore, I am seeking, through the June monitoring round, to provide some assistance to the voluntary transition committees in this financial year. A number of councils, parties and individual Members have raised with me the issue of funding associated with RPA, and I have no doubt that a lot of comments will be made about that during the debate. I will reply in substance to all of that at the end of the debate.

Recognising that this is an issue and that we need to ensure that there are sufficient resources to take forward RPA in the short term and given the need to roll out the sharing collaboration proposals through the innovation for competitive enterprises (ICE) programme brought forward by councillors, councils and council management last August, I am looking for support at June monitoring and through this debate for interventions to help councils to take forward all that work to ensure that the heavy responsibilities that fall to councils are properly attended to in the short term. On the far side of that and on the far side of the business case that is being reworked in the context of the costs of RPA, there may be further opportunities to provide some assistance to councils with the upfront costs of RPA.

I also believe that elected representatives, whether in councils, the Assembly or Westminster, should receive reasonable allowances to perform their civic duty. Following the reform of local government, councillors will take on more work as they will serve larger councils with increased functions, and it is only right that remuneration reflect that enhanced role. I intend to set up an independent panel to conduct a review of councils’ remuneration and to advise me on the system and level of allowances that will be appropriate for the new councils.

I want to make sure that the 11 new councils are effective in delivering the Executive’s vision of a strong and dynamic system of local government that is responsive to citizens’ needs. If they are to achieve that, their policies need to follow the principles of good governance and equality of opportunity. We need only read the papers over the past 24 to 48 hours to wonder whether one or two councils across the North of Ireland still do not embrace and live up to the principles of good governance and equality of opportunity. I will ask officials to provide me with a report on the conduct of councils in which the principles of good government and equality of opportunity have, on the face of it, not been honoured in the election of senior officers over the past 24 or 48 hours. I believe that the new councils — [Interruption.]

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

Order. There is no time limit on this debate; Members will have an opportunity to speak for as long as they want. [Interruption.] Order. Allow the Minister to continue.

Maurice (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

On a point of order, Mr Speaker. You rightly outlined that we will have an opportunity to ask questions on this. Will we have an opportunity to ask questions on the boundaries or will we have an opportunity to ask questions on this ramble here today, which has no relevance to the boundaries?

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

Order. Members will have an opportunity to ask the Minister about whatever he has spoken on this morning in the Chamber. [Interruption.] Order. Allow the Minister to continue.

Alex Attwood (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast West)

I welcome questions on anything that I have raised in the Chamber, both about boundaries and about the broader issue of RPA. I would be very surprised if, in preparing for this debate, as I am sure diligent Members have, they have not anticipated issues that they want to raise with me, not just about boundaries but about all other issues that are relevant to RPA. Indeed, it would be remiss of Members not to do so in a debate such as this when they have the Floor for as long as they need. I remind Members that I have the Floor for as long as I need to respond as well.

Pat Ramsey (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

I thank the Minister for giving way and thank him for acknowledging the contribution of local councillors in Northern Ireland over the past 40 years; it will be reassuring to them. Councillors from all parties have shown compassion and passion throughout that period and at times, as you said, Minister, in very difficult circumstances in which their families have been put at risk by their courageous stand.

You made reference to radical reform being necessary, and part of the RPA is about bringing efficiency and value for money, but it is also about delivering economically and socially. There is a growing opinion in the north-west that, given its historical regeneration and cultural agenda, Derry City Council should remain intact or, at the very least, be amalgamated in some way with part of Limavady council.

Would the Minister not support that concept, which is gaining momentum as we carry on —

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

Order. I remind Members to keep their interventions brief. I indicated earlier that Members will have an opportunity to speak on whatever the Minister has said. The Minister is setting the scene around all of this, so Members from all sides will — [Interruption.] Order. Members from all sides will have an opportunity to question the Minister. Once again, the House is holding the Minister to account.

Alex Attwood (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast West)

Mr Hazzard may regret that he has just said that we may be here all day. Before he joined the Assembly, my longest contribution was, I think, an hour and 35 minutes or an hour and 40 minutes.

Phil Flanagan (Sinn Féin, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

On a point of order, Mr Speaker. I would just like to clarify that it was me who made that smart comment and not Mr Hazzard.

Alex Attwood (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast West)

The point is still valid. Before Mr Flanagan joined the Assembly, my longest contribution was an hour and 40 minutes or maybe an hour and 45 minutes. I threatened my colleagues at the SDLP group meeting this morning that I intended to surpass that in my reply, so you may want to hold your breath.

Yes, there is a need for radical reform. That statement is not just from me; it is a statement from the councils. Why else would you bring forward proposals last August for savings of up to £570 million over 25 years through the sharing of and collaboration on services if not with the ambition of being radical? I do not how it is not radical to say that there is a better way of maintaining and arguably improving services for ratepayers at a lower cost base.

The real issue is whether we are serious about the improvement, collaboration and efficiency programme. Are we serious about transferring significant functions to local government? Are we serious about taking the once-in-a-lifetime opportunity that RPA presents to put in place the necessary structures and mechanisms? It seems to me that the Executive stumbled at one of the hurdles in that challenge in respect of the issue of having 11 or 15 councils. However, that is where we are.

Tom Elliott (UUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

I thank the Minister for giving way. He quoted a figure of savings in councils of 500 and something million pounds. I am wondering where that figure came out of. My recollection is that the PricewaterhouseCoopers (PwC) report stated 400 and something million pounds. So many figures are being bandied about that you do not know what to believe.

Alex Attwood (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast West)

There are two headline figures, one of which is in the PwC report around what the savings may be from local government reorganisation. That business case and report is being updated. In late summer, I will have that updated report and business case on the costs, both upfront in terms of RPA and the potential savings over 10, 15, 20 and 25 years.

The second headline figure was produced by the councils themselves — by councillors and council management — in the ICE proposals of August 2011. Those essentially sought to establish how councils could more greatly share and collaborate on services in a way that reduced costs, maintained services, was more efficient and effective, and recognised the difficult circumstances faced by ratepayers and councillors alike. Out of that, you can get a headline for what the potential savings may be from RPA on one hand and sharing on the other.

I will return to the comments made by my colleague Mr Ramsey. Yes; it seems to me that in parts of the North — not everywhere but particularly in Fermanagh and along the west corridor, including in and around Derry — people are beginning to realise that previous political doubt about RPA happening has been replaced by political certainty that it will. It is my job to manage that decision. However, as the reality of RPA happening begins to impact, people are beginning to work through its consequences more fully.

In working through the political reality of RPA happening, there are clearly businesses in Fermanagh, councillors in Derry and many other people — citizens and communities — in between, who are beginning to ask whether 11 is best and whether a different number, be it 12 or 15 —

Maurice (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

Change the record.

Alex Attwood (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast West)

I am not going to change the record. Right? My obligation —

Lord Morrow: — [Interruption.]

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

Order. Allow the Minister to continue.

Alex Attwood (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast West)

If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.

Maurice (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

The record is broken —

Alex Attwood (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast West)

The record is not broken. [Interruption.]

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

Order.

Alex Attwood (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast West)

If it is broken, why do the Fermanagh Economic Development Organisation, the Irvinestown Trustee Enterprise Company and the Belleek Chamber of Commerce of Main Street, Belleek, and so on and so forth, write to me? You are saying, Mr Morrow, to all those people — [Interruption.]

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

Order. Let us not have the debate across the Chamber.

Alex Attwood (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast West)

Mr Morrow is saying —

Maurice (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

Get on with it.

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

Order.

Alex Attwood (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast West)

Sorry. Lord Morrow is saying to Mr Gormley, the chairperson of Belleek Chamber of Commerce, and to Gerry McNulty, the company secretary of Irvinestown Trustee Enterprise Company — I could go on — that the record is broken. That is the response of a senior politician to people in Fermanagh raising questions and concerns about the decision of the Executive, which I, as I made clear, am implementing and managing, not least because I believe in the radical reform of local councils.

Dolores Kelly (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Upper Bann)

Will the Minister give way?

Alex Attwood (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast West)

I will give way. I do not think it wise counsel to say to people, who are articulating real concerns and fears, that they should “change the record.”

Maurice (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

It is you we are saying it to.

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

Order.

Dolores Kelly (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Upper Bann)

I thank the Minister for giving way. Minister, I am somewhat confused. I recall clearly that the DUP, at NILGA and across the party, stated its position that the 15-council model was its preferred option for these boundaries. Why has the DUP’s position changed? I also recall that Mr Francie Molloy was at one time suspended from his own party, or under suspicion from it, in relation to Sinn Féin’s proposal for a seven-council model. Does this response not smack more of a carve-up or a bad decision between Sinn Féin and the DUP than good government? [Interruption.]

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

Order.

Alex Attwood (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast West)

I will leave Lord Morrow and Mr Molloy to answer for themselves the questions raised by my colleague Mrs Kelly.

Gregory Campbell (DUP, East Londonderry)

If they ever get the chance.

Alex Attwood (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast West)

You will get the chance, a chance at length to do so, and I will be given the chance to respond at length to you.

Phil Flanagan (Sinn Féin, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

I thank the Minister for giving way. He referred to a number of letters from concerned businesses and business organisations in Fermanagh. He asks what our answer to them is. However, the more pertinent question is this: what is the Minister’s response to them? They have written to the Minister asking him to show leadership and to try to come up with some sort of solution that will alleviate the huge problem in Fermanagh where we are going to see what looks like a significant increase in domestic and non-domestic rates due to the historical underspend in Fermanagh in terms of the historical spend in Omagh. What businesses and citizens in Fermanagh are looking for is some sort of positive leadership from the Minister whereby he will take forward that issue in the Executive and try to get it resolved as opposed to throwing out numbers, such as the 12-council, 13-council and 20-council models. The fact is that the Executive have agreed on an 11-council model. We need to accept that and try to mitigate any potential increase in rates for people in Fermanagh. That is the positive leadership that the Minister should show. I encourage you to do that, and if you do, I will completely support you.

Alex Attwood (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast West)

I welcome those last words. As to complete support, I do not know anybody who completely supports anybody in anything. That would give them a licence to do what they want. I am a wee bit cautious. I seek support where I am doing what is necessary to try to protect ratepayers, citizens and communities. I will manage this process going forward. Whatever my view may have been about the 11-council model or the 15-council model, I have said and made it clear that I will manage the process going forward. I do not think that anybody can doubt that, in managing the process going forward, which involves a lot of difficulties, problems, issues and needs, over the past three or four months, I have applied myself, my officials and the Department to undertake that task and move forward in a positive way. If there is a contradiction in what Mr Flanagan says, it is this: I would not be getting all that correspondence, and other Ministers and Members would not be hearing that conversation, had the model been for 15 councils. Why? In a 15-council model, Fermanagh, like Belfast and six other councils throughout the North, would not be facing reorganisation.

Dolores Kelly (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Upper Bann)

Will the Minister give way?

Alex Attwood (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast West)

I will in a second.

Fermanagh would not be facing reorganisation and so would be able to deal with local issues in the context of a stand-alone Fermanagh council. Therefore, you cannot say that the only issue is the consequence of RPA, and I will deal with that in a second. You have to face up to the primary issue: you would not be getting representations, Mr Flanagan, or asking me, through you, Mr Speaker, Assembly questions about the very issues articulated by the various organisations that I have just outlined. Through the Assembly processes, you would not be asking me questions for written answer, which, on this occasion, I have answered, unless what Fermanagh people wanted, as implied in their correspondence, was a stand-alone, independent Fermanagh council. You cannot make an argument about the consequences of RPA without looking at the primary argument about RPA. So let us deal with the issue. I will, no doubt, deal with it in reply to comments later on in the debate.

I will let Mrs Kelly come in.

Dolores Kelly (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Upper Bann)

Thank you, Minister, for allowing me to come in at this point. I am particularly struck by the fact that Fermanagh will be the only one of the 32 counties of Ireland without any local identity through its own council. Is that not a shocking statistic? One wonders about the leadership of MLAs from that county. Perhaps the Minister will indicate to the House the strength of feeling, on behalf of the people of County Fermanagh, of the political representatives at Assembly and council level.

Phil Flanagan (Sinn Féin, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

Before the Minister gets up, will he give way?

Alex Attwood (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast West)

No. I will deal with that point, and then I will give way. Mr Speaker, my undertaking to you is that, today, I will give way to each and every Member who asks me to do so. That is why I think that the debate might not be over by lunchtime, but I may be proven —

Phil Flanagan (Sinn Féin, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

Tomorrow.

Alex Attwood (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast West)

All day might yet, Mr Flanagan, mean all day.

Let us deal with the issue of leadership. Over a year ago, £80 million was allocated in a budget line known as the social investment fund. None of the £20 million for year 1 was spent — not a penny. Today, I will be asked what I am doing about local government funding, and I will deal with that. However, the Assembly voted on and approved that £20 million in March 2011, and not a penny of it was spent in 2011-12. I would put a little money on the fact that, by Christmas this year, very little, if any, of that budget line will have been spent. The consequence will be that it will all be spent, in my view, from December this year and in the two years thereafter, and there is a danger in that. The £80 million is in the budget line, but the allocations for year 1 and, thus far, year 2 have not been spent. There is no appraisal system for any projects that might be allocated money under the project and no management structures for the investment zones where that money might be spent. No members have been appointed to any management board. Is that a wise use of money when there is a sister programme called neighbourhood renewal on which that money could be spent and given that a hardship fund was set up by the Executive over a year ago, on my recommendation, to help people in need? Is that not a better way to spend that money? Is that not a better example of leadership? If you want to talk about leadership at a critical time when there are unspent moneys, the likelihood being that they might not be spent very quickly — never mind very wisely, which is a wider debate — and ask me about money and resources for policy priorities, let us have the full debate about that £80 million. If that money was split in various ways to deal with issues of need, maybe even to deal with the issues of local government reorganisation costs on the far side of the business case, we would be in a wiser place.

Phil Flanagan (Sinn Féin, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

I thank the Minister for giving way. I take him back to one of his earlier points, when he said that I tabled questions for written answer. I have tabled questions for written answer, and organisations have sent numerous letters to the Minister, but not too many answers have come out of the Department of the Environment.

Mrs Kelly raised the issue of cultural identity being lost in Fermanagh. Perhaps she can explain why the three SDLP councillors in Fermanagh voted against the retention of townlands in Fermanagh, which will strip us completely of our cultural identity. The Minister made the point that people in Fermanagh are looking for a stand-alone, independent Fermanagh. That is not what the majority of people in Fermanagh are seeking. What we are seeking is that there will be no negative financial impact on ratepayers, but that we will still benefit from improved services and the economies of scale that will come from downsizing local government.

Talking of downsizing local government, let me take the Minister back to one of his party’s policy papers, which was published in April 2011, on downsizing Stormont. In that paper, the party advocated —

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

Order.

Phil Flanagan (Sinn Féin, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

— that it would implement RPA on an 11-council model.

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

Order. I now must insist. Interventions are becoming speeches. The debate has already started through interventions. That worries me. Quite a number of Members want to make a contribution, but the debate should not be had through interventions. Interventions, in any other place, are sharp, straight and to the point. They are not speeches. The Minister is right; he has the Floor, and has the right to take interventions. However, interventions cannot turn into speeches. I am warning Members: interventions must be short, sharp and to the point.

Alex Attwood (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast West)

Thank you, Mr Speaker. I will deal with those issues, some of which have to be answered by the SDLP. Although I am an SDLP Member, I am here as a Minister. However, I will deal with them as best I can.

Let me make it very clear that I believe in radical reform. I believe in RPA. Although I have differences with colleagues around 15 councils, I am going to manage 11, and am demonstrating conclusively that I am managing 11. Officials in the Box will confirm the amount of time we spend on that and the preoccupation I have with getting it right. For example, we are trying to create structures within and around the Department, and with councils, to get community planning right. This is a huge opportunity, which we cannot lose, to reshape our communities in the interests of being better going forward. I make it very clear that the comments I am making are in that context.

I hope that the people of Fermanagh read the comments of Mr Flanagan and what he said about the issue of 11 councils or 15 councils. What he said, as I understand it, is that the people in Omagh who say that they do not want to go with Fermanagh but want to go with Strabane do not carry much weight; that the people in Fermanagh who say that they do not want to go with Omagh do not carry much weight; and that the people in Strabane who say that they want to go with Omagh and not with Derry do not carry much weight. That might be Mr Flanagan’s sense of things, but, stepping back from the issue of 11 or 15 councils, that is not my sense of things.

Given the scale and size of the Fermanagh/Omagh council model, and given what a lot of the Omagh councillors and management have told me and what a lot of the councillors in Fermanagh have told me — not Sinn Féin councillors, who were silent during the course of that meeting — I do not think that that is a good read of the mood in Fermanagh. For those who do not live there, or have the intimate knowledge of the area that Mr Flanagan might have, does it not sound counterintuitive, if not wrong, that the people in Fermanagh are saying they have no difficulty going with Omagh and that, really, the issue is only around resources, assets, rates, convergence and debt profile?

Francie Molloy (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

Will the Minister give way?

Alex Attwood (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast West)

I will in a second.

You might be right, Mr Flanagan. However, if that is your call on it, my sense is that you are misreading your own community.

Francie Molloy (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

I have a number of questions. The Minister seems to advocate county councils, which, when you look at the Six Counties, goes back to the seven-council model. I am surprised at what was said about a Fermanagh council for Fermanagh. Does he accept that the role of those who advocate working together on the improvement, collaboration and efficiency (ICE) programme, particularly the chief executive of Omagh District Council and any council chief executive, is to lead co-operation in the transition to the new councils? If we cannot get co-operation between Omagh and Fermanagh, how does he advocate putting the ICE programme together, because it would mean co-operation across all councils in the area?

Alex Attwood (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast West)

I will deal with those questions, but there are some residual matters around townlands that were raised by Mr Flanagan. I think that the House is aware that the Pointer system means that we have the capacity to build townlands into the addresses of all government correspondence. I, for example, have issued an instruction that all DOE correspondence, in all its expressions, should have the townland name as part of the address.

Kieran McCarthy (Alliance, Strangford)

Hear, hear.

Alex Attwood (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast West)

Thank you.

If Mr Flanagan would like to check any correspondence that he might receive from me, he will see that the Goodwood House address includes the number, street and townland name, which is Town Parks.

Phil Flanagan (Sinn Féin, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

Will the Minister give way?

Alex Attwood (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast West)

I will give way in a second.

I have instructed the Department that townland names should be incorporated into addresses in all its expressions. I know what question is coming from Mr Flanagan, so I may as well get the answer in before the question. I went further, and I wrote to all councils and said that they should incorporate townland names into their addresses. Did I, as Minister, support the notion that the addresses should be townland names only? No, I did not. Why? I did not support that because it could end up being hostile to the interests of local citizens. Why? Providers of services such as insurance could end up saying that they did not know where a particular place was. That might be unfortunate, but that is how insurance companies would have viewed it. They might have looked at a certain address and asked where it was.

In encouraging local councils to use the townland name in all correspondence, as I am rolling out in government, and I encourage all other Ministers to do the same, I made a judgement call that prescribing that it had to be the townland name and not the established address name would end up being hostile to the interests of local people.

Phil Flanagan (Sinn Féin, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

I thank the Minister for giving way. Mr Speaker, I am well aware that townlands have been debated extensively in the House, but, perhaps the Minister will take on board the fact that parts of his Department issue letters and driving licences without townland names. I know people in Fermanagh who have received a driving licence from DVANI without a townland name on it. They submitted a form that included their townland but got back a licence that did not. Maybe the Minister will agree to take that forward.

In his previous discussions on correspondence with Fermanagh District Council, the Minister was keen to emphasise that the council was very opposed to going in with Omagh. However, he will recollect that he has received numerous letters from Fermanagh District Council, as did his predecessors, seeking a change to legislation that would allow a council the option of naming a property against a townland, but he has refused to listen. If he is so interested in listening to the wishes of citizens and district councillors, why will he not take that on board? The Pointer system can facilitate an address in which a townland is the primary address.

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

Order. There have been many interventions, and I have warned Members. I will not warn them any longer; I will merely ask them to take their seat. The model of an intervention in other places is short, sharp and to the point. This morning, interventions from Members are ending up as statements, and that needs to stop. We also need to get back to the motion before the House. We allowed the Minister to set the scene this morning. I think that the scene has been set —

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

Order. We should now try to move the business of the House on.

Alex Attwood (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast West)

Thank you, Mr Speaker. Let us deal with the issues.

Ross Hussey (UUP, West Tyrone)

Will the Minister accept an intervention?

Alex Attwood (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast West)

I will shortly.

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

Allow the Minister to deal with the previous intervention.

Alex Attwood (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast West)

Let us deal with the issue of driving licences. I get a bit frustrated in my Department because every time I get an Assembly question about driving licences and the DVA and the DVLA, a standard paragraph is put into the response, which starts with, “Driving licensing is an excepted matter.” That is the problem. I do not have control.

Alex Attwood (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast West)

I have control of some things, but I wish that I had control of a lot more. We, as a Government and as an Assembly, should be scoping out, in the same way as the Scottish Government did through the Scotland Bill, ways and means of extending our opportunities for greater powers and greater control of the destiny of the people whom we represent. However, the problem is that it is an excepted matter.

If you go to Derry, Newry, Manchester, Swansea, Edinburgh, Newcastle, London, or wherever you want to go in Britain and Northern Ireland, you will get a licence. As I understand it, because that is standardised and is an excepted matter, we may not have the influence over the description of addresses that I would like to see. It is inconsistent. In the DOE private office, townland names are used, and I have instructed my agencies and the Department to use Pointer to incorporate townland names. I have also written to all councils to say that I am in favour of townland names, without being prescriptive in a way that could be hostile to the interests of their citizens. Therefore, of course, I want to have townland names as part of driving licences. It follows. That is me being consistent. To use your words, that is “showing leadership”, but, sometimes, because of the issue of excepted matters, I do not have full control of how some things are managed.

I am not sure about some of the points that Mr Molloy was getting at, but I am not going to comment about the views or the actions of chief executives, save to say that whatever our differences with management and councillors around the issue of 11 or 15 councils, we have three years, which is adequate time to get this right. However, it is not an extravagant amount of time. Everybody needs to apply their minds and their energies to making sure we get over that line. I understand that there are tensions around money and around the breadth of representation on regional transition committees and voluntary transition committees and when the latter become statutory, but this is still a once-in-a-lifetime political opportunity to reconfigure local councils in a way that serves interests better. If the horse has bolted on the issue of 11 or 15 councils, the horse has not bolted on the issue of making sure that local government measures up.

I do not understand one of the questions raised by Mr Molloy. If Fermanagh and Omagh can co-operate on shared and collaborative services, they should be doing it today. They should not wait until tomorrow or next year or for RPA, they should be doing it today. I have some frustrations that, in the period since August 2011, the gear change has not fully happened around ICE sharing and collaboration.

Newry council has an electricity framework that more and more councils are joining. Belfast council has a stationery framework that 22 or 23 councils have now joined. There is co-ordination between Banbridge, Craigavon and Armagh cluster in respect of the purchase of wheelie bins and the like. Those things should be happening now. I encourage chief executives and elected representatives to push on with the ICE programme because it is one of the interventions that can fund RPA and see better spend in council areas now.

Maurice (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

Will the Minister give way?

Alex Attwood (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast West)

On the far side of three years, is it beyond our imagination and ambition to identify savings, amounting to many millions, that can become part of the narrative of local councils being reconfigured in a better image?

Ross Hussey (UUP, West Tyrone)

First —

Maurice (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

Who is it? Is it me?

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

I think that it was Ross Hussey who first indicated that he wanted the Minister to give way. I am sure that the Minister will take Lord Morrow’s point afterwards.

Ross Hussey (UUP, West Tyrone)

First, I declare an interest as a member of Omagh District Council. Secondly, if anybody carries weight in the House, I certainly do. [Laughter.] I come from the townland of Dergmoney Lower. The Minister referred to collaboration between councils. Does he accept that there is very close collaboration between Omagh and Strabane district councils? They do, after all, share a chief executive and other services?

Alex Attwood (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast West)

I am sure that the Member will give further evidence of that in his subsequent contributions. From my sense of the place, my judgement is that Omagh and Strabane should be together because of their local identity and character in county terms. That is the balance of the argument, but that argument has not prevailed. I regret that, but that is where I am. Members will be able to articulate their views.

Mr Speaker, I have to immediately correct something that I got wrong. Mr Flanagan will be quite interested to know this, but it only begs further questions. I hold in my hand a driving licence. It is a UK driving licence for the reasons I explained. [Interruption.]

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

Order.

Alex Attwood (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast West)

It is actually the driving licence of a Member, Karen McKevitt. Should I give out your address?

Karen McKevitt (Social Democratic and Labour Party, South Down)

No problem.

Alex Attwood (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast West)

The address is Lower Carrogs Road, Ballyholland. So, it appears that, unbeknownst to me, I have been able to prevail over the DVA to issue driving licences that include the townland. The power of my office knows no limits, it seems. [Laughter.] Apparently, you can get your townland name on a licence. That raises a question: if that is the case, why, at an official level, was that denied to somebody? You have a precedent here. I am sure that Mrs McKevitt will photocopy that for you, so that you can, if you so wish, wave it in the face of some DVA official when you next apply for your licence.

Phil Flanagan (Sinn Féin, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

Will the Minister give way?

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

Order. Before the Member rises, I am trying to work out in my mind what a driving licence has to do with the Local Government (Boundaries) Order. Really, we must get back to the motion and the business before the House. If your intervention very much relates to the motion before the House, I am happy to listen. However, if it is about driving licences, it is certainly nothing to do with the Local Government (Boundaries) Order.

Alex Attwood (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast West)

I give way to Lord Morrow.

Maurice (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

There certainly is confusion about what we are debating here today. The Order Paper states one thing, but the debate tells us something entirely and absolutely different. A precedent has been established here today that the Assembly will probably regret. We have opened the floodgates for any Minister to come in here and discuss anything that he or she wants. That, unfortunately, has happened today.

The Minister is referring, perhaps, to a lack of leadership — I am not using those words — in Omagh and Fermanagh. Does that not cry out for leadership from somewhere else then? If there is a lack of leadership in taking this forward, surely the Minister has a bounden responsibility and an obligation to provide leadership where he deems that it is lacking. For instance, we have established transition committees, but they are merely voluntary. In other words, they do not have to happen. It is the call of councils whether they want to have them.

Surely it is time for the Minister to concentrate minds on the issue and say that, from today, they will be not voluntary but compulsory.

The Minister is leading on an issue on which he does not want to lead. He is taking forward a set of proposals that he has no heart in, and he is just not up for it. There is nothing really wrong with that, except that it is a bit hypocritical. Maybe he should step to one side and say, “I cannot take the issue forward because I am not for it and I do not want it to happen”. I think the whole thing is not going anywhere, because the Minister is taking it at two speeds — a snail’s pace and a dead stop.

Dolores Kelly (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Upper Bann)

On a point of order, Mr Speaker. Further to Mr Beggs’s earlier point of order, is it not incumbent on Members, when they speak, to declare an interest as members of district councils?

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

Order. Let us move on. It is up to Members whether they want to declare an interest in any subject.

Alex Attwood (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast West)

Thank you, Mr Speaker, and I thank Lord Morrow for that intervention. It is the call of the Speaker and the people who manage the business of the Assembly, but I think that, on significant public policy issues, it is not a matter of latitude; it is actually a matter of good practice that there should be accountability on the Floor of the Chamber. The notion that you can divorce the issue of boundaries from the issue of numbers, the issue of numbers from the issue of functions, the issue of functions from the issues of resources and costs and all the rest of it does not seem to me to be credible. I think that Members would be frustrated if they were not given some opportunity, and I have certainly given them plenty of opportunity. More important than that, the people that we represent will ask, “What does all that mean?”. The ‘Belfast Telegraph’ today does not make pleasant reading.

William Humphrey (DUP, Belfast North)

What about yesterday?

Alex Attwood (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast West)

I do not know what you are referring to about yesterday. It does not make pleasant reading on the basis of its assessment survey, which is not necessarily conclusive of anything. It does not make particularly happy reading about the standing of government and the Assembly. In one way, it is a bit of a reply to the ‘Belfast Telegraph’ and it is certainly a response to the community that, whether it is on the issue of townlands, resources or anything up to and including the boundaries, we have a full opportunity for some accountability today. I welcome that. I do not have any issue about that.

Lord Morrow is quite right that it is better to have something statutory than voluntary. That is why, with officials, we are trying to identify at the earliest possible opportunity how voluntary transition committees will become statutory. I hope to be able to update the Committee and the House in that regard. That point is valid. I accept your point, Lord Morrow. I might not accept all the other points, but I accept the point that creating certainty by having statutory transition rather than voluntary transition is something that I need to take forward.

Maurice (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

Will the Minister give way?

Alex Attwood (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast West)

I will in a second. There was a wonderful contradiction in what Lord Morrow said, which I think Hansard will confirm. He said that I was leading on an issue on which I did not want to lead. Think about that for a second. You either lead, or you do not lead. Suggesting that you can be leading on an issue on which you do not want to lead seems to reveal something. I will tell you when things were at snail’s pace and a dead slow: it was during the last mandate, when, for reasons that I still cannot fathom —

Maurice (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

It is always somebody else.

Alex Attwood (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast West)

Well, what does the record say? It says that there was stalemate and that this got stuck around the Executive table. I was there for part of that stalemate. If it is the will of the DUP and Sinn Féin that 11 should prevail today, why did it not prevail before? Why was it stuck? Why did it go at a snail’s pace and dead slow previously, if there was no big issue about 11, so much so that they can now say that they want that to prevail and say that it is democracy? I accept the will of the Executive, but why did they not do that 15 months ago? You ask about who is leading: what does it say about the failure of leadership in the previous mandate when there was failure to agree on 11 only for there to be agreement on 11 four or five months later?

Dolores Kelly (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Upper Bann)

Will the Minister give way?

Alex Attwood (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast West)

I will in a second. Although we have come to 11, the evidence of the past four months shows that I have been leading on 11. [Laughter.] I hear laughter, but, if Members had been sitting on the regional transition committee, it would not have been laughter they heard but a hard conversation with local councils and local management in order to say that, although I hear the concerns about a vast range of issues, we need to stay in the room, work it through and get it over the line.

We have had those conversations, and those structures are being set up. We are trying to work through the issues, including how to be more inclusive in the membership of the RTC. We are updating the Business Committee, and I will bring forward proposals for a councillor severance scheme and so on. If you examine the evidence, you will draw the conclusion that, although I am managing a decision of the Executive, I am leading in taking forward the implementation at Executive level, whatever my views might be as a politician.

I will give you an example: the Executive endorsed a proposal for the roadside testing of individuals by the police as part of the change regime around drink-driving. As an individual, in my party capacity, I have great concerns about granting further powers to the police to deploy against the citizen. It has come from a background where, for all the changes that have happened in policing, we need to be measured in the powers that we give them. However, I recognised the overwhelming evidence from the consultation: 82% of people questioned said that random breath-testing on the side of the road was an important intervention to grant to the police in order to control drink-driving —

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

Order. I now insist that both the Minister and Members get back to the motion. That includes interventions. I am looking at Mrs Kelly, who has indicated that she wants to make an intervention. I may come to a point where I will not allow interventions any longer because the debate is taking place through interventions. Members are making statements, not interventions. I say to the Minister and to Members: let us get back to the motion. It is the only motion before the House.

Karen McKevitt (Social Democratic and Labour Party, South Down)

On a point of order, Mr Speaker. Will you rule on the last intervention from Lord Morrow? He made a sexist remark, referring to the deputy leader of the SDLP as a silly girl when she was making a viable and valuable comment in the debate.

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

Order. Let me say to all Members that this is the cut and thrust of debate. Let me read Hansard and come back to the Member, but, at the end of the day, this is about the cut and thrust of debate in the Chamber. [Interruption.] Order. Allow the Minister to continue. I say to the Minister: let us get back to the motion before the House.

Alex Attwood (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast West)

People can draw a conclusion from the point that I was making.

I will confirm what I said about the putting the voluntary transition on a statutory footing: officials are looking at subordinate legislation to do that as soon as possible.

Maurice (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

Will the Minister give way?

Alex Attwood (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast West)

Yes.

Maurice (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

The Minister says that we need to be extremely careful that we get the transitional committees absolutely right. Whatever I might have against the Minister, I will not accuse him of not being careful; he borders on the careful, all right. The transitional committees that he speaks about are not new phenomena that we are trying to develop; transitional committees were in place before and seemed to work reasonably well. In fact, the transitional committee that covered Dungannon, Cookstown and Magherafelt worked exceptionally well. However, nothing can move until the Minister gives a lead. I ask him please to try to address that issue and tell the House that he will change their voluntary status and make things happen. Minister, if you do that today, we would nearly be prepared to forgive you for all that went before.

Alex Attwood (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast West)

On one reading, your price is quite small, if you are prepared to forgive me.

There is a slight contradiction in what Lord Morrow has just outlined. He rightly points to a cluster of councils working very well. He has good knowledge, given his length of experience as a councillor in that area, that they did work well. They were voluntary, they worked well, they did their business, they got on with things, and they moved things forward. I could give you a number of examples of clusters of councils, working together voluntarily, that got on with the work and the business and began to interrogate what they needed to do to work together and work through the implementation of and potential issues with RPA. They did that in a situation of great political uncertainty and stalemate at the Executive. Yet, they got on with it. That suggests to me that councils working in a voluntary capacity were able to do substantial and significant work, even though there was political uncertainty and stalemate. Therefore, I say to councils that, given that there is political certainty and that RPA will happen within the time frame and in the character that we have been talking about, it is even more imperative to get on with business. The good experience and practice before the political certainty of recent times should apply the minds of councillors and the voluntary transitional committees to getting on with the work.

To ensure further certainty and definition around RPA, we are looking at subordinate legislation to put voluntary committees on a statutory basis. However, this is a matter of political will more than one of structure. I have always said that you should create certainty and avoid doubt, and statute is the way to do that. I will not wander too far from the subject, Mr Speaker, but I hope that, when I come forward with a climate change Bill with rigorous statutory emission targets, Lord Morrow will say, “I agree. Let’s have statute. Let’s create certainty”.

As the past 40 years have demonstrated across a range of public policy interventions in Northern Ireland, a model of good law and hard enforcement is very good for introducing radical change. That is why a statutory transitional committee is better than a voluntary one, but that does not mean that the good work cannot be done by the voluntary committees, as Lord Morrow testified. I presume that, at one time or another, he was a member of a voluntary transitional committee, so he can give some intimate validation of that assertion.

Maurice (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

Are you saying that that is why it worked so well?

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

Order. Let us not have a debate across the Chamber.

Alex Attwood (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast West)

I have no doubt that it worked better because Lord Morrow was there. Lord Morrow applies his mind to tasks and gets things over the line. There are a lot of MLAs who should not be councillors who contribute to that practice.

I will go back to my concluding remarks. It might surprise you, Mr Speaker, that I had two paragraphs left 45 minutes ago.

Jim Allister (Traditional Unionist Voice, North Antrim)

Will the Minister give way?

Alex Attwood (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast West)

Yes.

Jim Allister (Traditional Unionist Voice, North Antrim)

The Minister is in a most intriguing position. He has come to the House with an order that he patently does not believe in. He has then single-handedly led a filibuster on his own order. At the end, will he advise the House, in accordance with his beliefs, to vote against the order?

Alex Attwood (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast West)

My advice to the House is to vote in favour of the order. Let there be no doubt or lack of certainty about that. I advise all Members to vote in favour of the order. That is the view of the Executive and the view that I am expressing here today. Fortunately, we live in a democracy. Robert Kennedy once said that he demanded the right to dissent because there was much to dissent from. That is a pretty good maxim. If it had not been for the democratic dissent of brave people over the last 30 or 40 years, we would not be here at all but in a much worse place. Bobby Kennedy was right in the context of the history of the last 40 years and about how the House should inform itself about this and other issues. There is much to dissent from, and we demand the right to dissent. If people choose to dissent later in the debate, I respect that. However, that is not the advice that I give them on how to vote.

I have not filibustered anything. In an idle moment over the weekend, I might count the number of interventions that I have taken so far. That number will no doubt multiply later in the afternoon. Therefore, I have been responding to the debate. I am sure that Mr Allister, who enjoys a good debate, would criticise me if I stood up and said, “That is not on the Order Paper. Therefore, I will not answer that question”. This is not a filibuster; it is a proper process of accountability in which I am dealing with any and all issues that touch on and go beyond local government.

Paul Givan (DUP, Lagan Valley)

Will the Minister give way?

Alex Attwood (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast West)

I will in a second.

I will not deny that I would prefer 15 councils. Before you came in, Mr Allister, I said that my preferred model was 15. Why? I think that 15 better reflects local character and identity. There would be fewer upfront logistical and management issues, because six councils would not be merged at all. The upfront costs would also be less. Having gathered all that information, my view was that 15 was a better model. However, the Executive decided to the contrary. I am a Minister who lives by the ministerial code, and I will not be reckless with the ministerial code. Therefore, I will manage the situation. I told my Executive colleagues that I would manage the situation; that is the word that I used. However, in managing that situation, I also have to recognise that there is a need for radical reform of public policy in the North, which includes RPA. Therefore, I will not be shy about taking forward RPA. It is in the best interests of the people whom we represent and is a mechanism for good government, even though I do not agree, personally, with the principle of 11.

I will give way.

Paul Givan (DUP, Lagan Valley)

Thank you, Minister. I have a couple of points. I missed the start of the debate, so forgive me if they have been dealt with. I raised these at Question Time.

First, you will be aware that, in your own constituency, residents in Twinbrook and Poleglass have been well served by Lisburn City Council, which is a very low-rate council. Those people will now move into Belfast City Council and face a significant increase in their rates as a result. What is being put in place to deal with that problem for those people? The problem is replicated in other councils, where amalgamation will result in a significant differential in the rates that are applied.

Secondly, what is the process for redefining the wards within the new boundaries? When will that commence? Will there be a cap on the number of councillors to be elected in each ward? Will there be seven-seat, eight-seat or five-seat wards? Can the Minister give us any more detail on those issues?

Alex Attwood (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast West)

I recommend that the Member reads the entire Hansard report of the debate to get a flavour of it, although, curiously, the points that he raises have not been raised heretofore. They are clearly important.

In my capacity as a constituency MLA, I do not concur with your assessment of the benefit to the residents of Twinbrook and Poleglass of being part of Lisburn City Council. It may be a low-rate council, but in many instances it has been a low-service council. There is good evidence of that. There are also some wider issues around the treatment of people in Twinbrook and Poleglass. Remember that the population of Twinbrook and Poleglass is larger than that of Ballymena. It is a startling fact that the number of people who live there, in some of the most deprived wards in the North of Ireland, is comparable to the population of Ballymena. I was in Ballymena only two weeks ago, and, despite some difficult circumstances, the council and the commercial community in that part of the world are demonstrating leadership and a lot of rigour and vigour. Compare that with the dereliction of the commercial infrastructure in Twinbrook and Poleglass. I am not suggesting that that is totally, absolutely, completely and utterly the fault of Lisburn City Council. There are a lot of reasons for it, and a lot of accountability is required in a lot of places as a consequence.

The Member makes a good point about rates convergence. How will we fund local government RPA? The Executive have decided that there will not be assistance with upfront costs. No Executive Minister dissented from that view, either in this mandate or the previous one. That was the working principle. Although some might dispute whether that was a settled outcome, it was the Executive’s view, and it was communicated to bodies representing councils and councillors in April 2010, subject to correction. That is not the end of the story. I have put in bids for the June monitoring round to assist with the real-time, real-life process of change in councils. If we can provide resources — I think that we should — to help change management, to help the ICE programme, to help build up capacity around planning and so on and so forth, a good argument can be made now, in advance of a business case, to demonstrate that we recognise the scale of what is being undertaken. However, councils have to recognise the scale of the economic circumstances that we in central government face. I trust and hope that there will be opportunities, and I look for support today in the Chamber, because these matters are to be decided by the Minister of Finance and Personnel and the rest of the Executive between now and the first week in July.

What are the other interventions? What further flexibility can we have around loans? There is further flexibility that we can have around loans. What can be done with the disposal of surplus assets? I do not mean a fire sale of assets but the disposal of surplus assets. On the far side of RPA, there may not be as much need for council buildings and accommodation as was the case heretofore. Can we identify ways and means of helping there? What is the profile of assets in councils? I am mindful of the fact that in some councils in particular there is a profile of debt that creates a great burden. Are there opportunities for a mutual bank to provide funding?

Maurice (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

Will the Minister give way?

Alex Attwood (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast West)

I will in a second, but I want to answer your colleague’s question first.

Across that narrative, there is the story of how we will fund RPA, and part of that has to be about rates convergence, which the Member has raised. I await further advice from officials, but my view of the notion of a Big Bang outcome on day one of the new councils going live, with a common rates burden across the council cluster, is that it will not happen. The differentials in rates between the councils that will emerge will be of such a scale in certain places that the notion of having convergence on day one — the Big Bang theory — is not sustainable. Therefore, we will work through how to deal with rates convergence in a way that is measured and proportionate over the appropriate time limit and does not impose undue burden on people.

On the far side of today’s debate, in the event that the recommendation that I am urging on the Assembly is adopted, the matter will pass to the Secretary of State, because local government boundaries are his responsibility. He will then appoint a district electoral area commissioner, who will bring forward recommendations on district electoral areas that will go for public consultation and inquiry. On the far side of that process, legislation will be tabled at Westminster to give definition to those recommendations.

I have been passed a note, as I cannot recall the answer to the question about the number of councillors. They will correlate with the number of wards, as set out in schedule 2 to the boundaries order. That will be your lunchtime work. There will be 462 wards, and there will be 462 councillors. As I said, the drawing up of district electoral areas will be a matter for the Secretary of State. Belfast will have 60 wards; two councils — Armagh, Banbridge and Craigavon, and Newry, Mourne and Down — will have 41 wards each; and the other eight councils will have 40 wards.

I am trying to find where I left off my opening remarks. If we are to achieve the dynamic, strong local government that responds to the needs of all citizens, policies need to follow the principles of good governance and equality of opportunity. I think that I touched on that in my previous remarks. The new councils will make better choices for citizens if they represent the society on behalf of which they act. There is a danger that these could end up being warm, meaningless phrases. Let me tell people, given the experience of recent days, that, when it comes to having a code of conduct for councillors, an ethics regime, proportionality on committees and a system that sees proportional distribution of council offices through d’Hondt, Sainte-Laguë or some other mechanism, this will be the new order of things. There will be no compromising on it. If it is left to me, no council will have any opportunity to get up to practices that deny fairness, democracy and equality.

The order is a step forward in the reorganisation of local government. Together with the proposals that I have outlined today, it will help us on our way to having 11 dynamic councils, which, if we get this right and apply our minds to it, will create vibrant, healthy, prosperous, safe and sustainable communities that have the needs of all citizens at their core. In answer to Mr Allister’s point, I ask the Assembly to approve the draft order.

Jim Allister (Traditional Unionist Voice, North Antrim)

But do you mean it? [Laughter.]

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

Order.

Anna Lo (Alliance, Belfast South)

Members will be glad to hear that I will be brief and will stick to my notes.

The Committee was briefed on the Local Government (Boundaries) Order by departmental officials on 17 May 2012. Members were provided with the draft boundaries order giving effect to the Local Government Boundaries Commissioner’s recommendations subject to two modifications. They were also provided with a statement of reasons for those modifications, maps of proposed boundaries and revised maps of the modifications. Members were informed that on 23 February 2012 the Executive had agreed that the commissioner’s final recommendations report should be laid in the Assembly, subject to the two modifications.

Members sought clarification from the Department on the guiding principles that governed decisions made by the Local Government Boundaries Commissioner. They were advised that paragraph 19 of schedule 4 to the Local Government Act (Northern Ireland) 1972 states that the number of electoral wards in the district should be substantially the same and that the Boundaries Commissioner applied the principle that deviation from the electoral average should not exceed 10%. The Committee was later advised by the Department that the largest variance from the ward electoral average recommended by the commissioner is 11·99%. The Department also advised that paragraph 18 sets the number of wards for districts outside Belfast at 40, with some limited latitude on either side.

The Committee then considered a written request from Newry and Mourne District Council for the inclusion of an additional ward in the Warrenpoint/Rostrevor area. Members asked the officials about the feasibility of that in the guiding principles and were informed that it would compromise the electoral balance significantly, with a variance of 46%, which is much greater than the 10% guide figure. The Department acknowledged that consequential changes to other wards would allow that variance to be reduced. However, officials pointed out that, when they examined the options for doing that, it impacted on the ward boundaries of seven neighbouring wards and still resulted in a variance of 13·9% and 14·6% less than the ward electoral average in respect of each of the two wards at Warrenpoint, thus leaving them still some way outside the 10% variance guidelines. In addition, the Committee was made aware that the Boundaries Commissioner had provisionally recommended 40 wards in the Newry and Mourne district. However, he later exercised his discretion to revise that to 41 in his final recommendation on the grounds that there should be a proper representation of the rural and urban electorate within a district.

The Committee noted that only one other district outside Belfast has 41 wards in the draft order. The rest have 40, which means that a district with 42 wards would appear inconsistent. Members were also concerned about the potential knock-on effects for surrounding wards if another ward were to be created in the Warrenpoint/Rostrevor area. On learning that the best alternative would affect seven other wards, they felt that there was insufficient time to revisit the issue within the time required for the election of shadow councils in 2014. Consequently, the Committee concluded that the Newry and Mourne District Council proposals would be outside the rules of the 1972 Act, would be inconsistent with principles applied across Northern Ireland by the commissioner, and would cause a consequential ripple effect that could not be addressed within the necessary time frame for the election of shadow councils in 2014. The Committee subsequently agreed by majority to recommend that the draft Local Government (Boundaries) Order (Northern Ireland) 2012 be approved by the Assembly.

I now speak as the Alliance Party MLA for South Belfast. I have been contacted by a number of my constituents who feel that the Forestside shopping complex should be included in the Belfast boundary and are frustrated with the decision to modify the original recommendation. Many regard Forestside as being firmly in Belfast; after all, it is only four miles from Belfast City Council and some 15 miles from Lisburn.

There is an argument that Castlereagh Borough Council headquarters need to be located within the Castlereagh/Lisburn council. There are many examples of council-owned premises located in different council boundaries, Roselawn cemetery being a prime example in Belfast.

The attempt to influence the independent recommendations could be perceived as a financial gerrymander, and I am concerned about the potential impact that this could have on residents’ rates in Belfast. However, it is important to highlight that, although parties may have issues with certain specific boundaries, this was an independent process, and that must be respected.

What is done is done, and there is no point in harping back to old arguments about the number of councils or the boundaries. We need to move on and get on with it. I encourage the Minister to bring forward tangible plans for local government reform that are focused on the serious areas of finance, staffing and governance, and that are robust, rational and expedient, because deadlines already seem to be slipping. Local government reform needs to move past the focus on the number of councils to detailed plans that ensure efficient and well-resourced local government. I am keen to see how this reform will be financed. I note that the forecasted date for introduction is October 2012, and I ask the Minister to ensure that he and his Department keep to the timetable outlined.

Maurice (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

We have just had an example of how to speak to a motion. Having listened to the Minister, it seemed that he did not address the issues in any great depth, so we will not have an opportunity to question him on where he and his Department stand on the boundaries.

Mr Speaker, you said, and we accept, that it is the Minister’s prerogative as to where he takes the debate. I suspect that that will not be lost on other Ministers, and we will find ourselves in a different position in this House in the future.

To an extent, the Minister trod onto the financial side of the debate, but then he pulled back and, in fairness to him, he said that things would depend to some degree on the Department of Finance and Personnel because I suspect there is a bit of a crossover. However, there is no doubt that the issue of finance is an important part of the argument, including the existing debts of some local councils. I understand that local government debt at the end of last year totalled around £500 million. That is a substantial sum by anyone’s standards.

It is ironic that the cluster of councils that I am particularly interested in, namely Cookstown District Council, Magherafelt District Council and Dungannon and South Tyrone Borough Council, account for just about 1·15% of that total debt. It is also ironic and coincidental that those three councils are among those with the lowest rate base across the whole of Northern Ireland. That is worth saying.

I do not say this to get at the Minister, but I want to emphasise to him, as did the Chairperson of the Committee, that the debate is over about whether we are going to have seven, 11, 15 or any other number of councils. When we talk about the record being broken, we are not talking about what Fermanagh District Council, Omagh District Council, Dungannon and South Tyrone Borough Council or any other council are saying. I am talking about what the Minister is saying. We have no doubt that the Minister is reluctantly leading on a model on which he would prefer not to lead. He would prefer to be leading on a different model. His party’s manifesto at the last election was, however, silent on the number of councils. I stand to be corrected, but I think that the SDLP was silent, which tells me that it can be persuaded.

The Minister finished by reluctantly saying that there will be 11 councils, so let us go for it now. Also ahead of us are the shadow councils. Some Members — I am not sure whether the Minister is among them but I certainly am — have been in local government long enough to remember the last reform under the Macrory report, which introduced a model of local government that presumed a local Assembly. That was not the case, and, therefore, there was always a gap. In fairness to Macrory, that was not his fault. He put forward his proposals on the understanding that there would be an Assembly here at Stormont. The point is that there was no transition. It was a case of going straight from one into the next and getting on with it.

The Minister and other Members rightly said that during the worst times of trouble in this country, it was local government that held the line. It was the one seat of democracy and the one area that people were able to identify with. Indeed, I think of the bravery, courage and tenacity of local councillors.

We are hearing much talk about saving money. I am not convinced that what the Minister is telling us here today is absolutely correct because some of us have been here long enough. We were not paid when we went into local government. Why were we there? We and many others were there to serve our communities and do our bit for them. So I take a wee bit of umbrage when I hear about how the Minister is doing this, is entitled to do that and that everybody will have to live with it. Let it be said, however, that, way back in 1973, financial gain was not the motivation of people who went into local government because many did so voluntarily then and would still do so today.

When the Minister makes his winding-up speech, or if he does because maybe he has said enough already, will he make clear whether it is his intention to allow capital expenditure to continue or will he put a moratorium on that? We need to know. I am not saying what he should or should not do, but he must make a decision and tell us clearly what that decision is. Some councils are run exceptionally well financially. The figures are there for everyone to inspect. At the last call, I think that the combined debt of Dungannon, Magherafelt and Cookstown councils was just under £5 million. That is exceptional, and I do not say that simply because I am a member of Dungannon and South Tyrone Borough Council. If the position was contrary to that, people know that I would say so. I would like to hear the Minister’s proposals on that issue

Again, I urge him as strongly as I can to make the transitional committees statutory. If he could do that from tomorrow, it would not be too soon. There are many more issues, but we have had a long debate, and maybe we all wandered and digressed slightly, so I will stop there.

Cathal Boylan (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. Ba mhaith liom cúpla focal a rá. I think that you were right to give some latitude to Members, Mr Speaker, because a lot of councillors and members of the public are unsure about what exactly is taking place. I will open up the debate, although I do not know about the driving licence and climate change issues. However, the debate was open and honest, and some questions had to be asked.

To be fair, standing in the support of the order — I will try to stick to the order — it is time for the Minister to show leadership on the matter. The Minister has taken decisions. When I say that, I mean that he has taken decisions recently. I will not say that he has “made” decisions but that he has “taken” them, and he can interpret that however he wants.

In relation to some of the issues that have been raised here today, I want to raise the issue of Omagh and Fermanagh. We have accepted that we are going down the line of an 11-council model, so let us get on with it. However, in the absence of councils taking those decisions and because of the uncertainty that lies there, it is important that the Minister shows leadership on that and directs those councils in a way that enables them to deal with the issue.

Two of my colleagues are coming behind me, so I will leave some issues for them to discuss, but I agree with Lord Morrow that the voluntary transition committees should be in statute. There is uncertainty about that. In the previous mandate, a process was agreed on how to take that forward, and I want the Minister to comment on the groupings that he has set up in relation to the transfer of functions and the community planning groupings. He has set those groupings up and, to my knowledge, there are no councillors on them. Council officials are on them, and maybe he can explain why he has decided to go down that route.

I want to bring up the issue of what happened in Craigavon council last week. I will not go into the detail of that, but when will the Minister bring forward the reorganisation Bill? The sooner we get the governance practices in place, we will be able to ensure that what happened last week in Craigavon council does not happen again.

Can the Minister indicate when he proposes to bring the other associated legislation forward? He mentioned a wait of three years, but we will find that that process will not be long going in, and I would like him to ensure that that process is in place, and the subsequent legislation that we require to move the process on. What legislation is left?

The funding issue is a major one for councils. The Minister indicated that he requested, through monitoring rounds, funding for some of the process. When will he bring his business case to the Executive? I want him to stop saying to the House that the Executive proposed not to fund it. We have heard that 100 times already, and it is not helpful. The Minister needs to show leadership because it is his office and his Department, and I want to see what his business case proposes to do to facilitate the reform process.

He made a comment about the ‘Belfast Telegraph’. For anybody listening in today, this debate has gone some way to ensure that the business is working. I pay tribute to the people in the Department, because the DOE and the Committee, in the previous mandate, brought a significant amount of legislation through this House. So, we will certainly not be found wanting. This is the first piece of the jigsaw, and I want the process to move forward. With that, I support the order.

Tom Elliott (UUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

Mr Speaker, I note that you have quite a lot of patience today. I commend you for that, because this is an emotive subject in many areas. The Minister had to lay out quite a lot of context, and everyone in the House is broadly agreed that, in essence, local government had to be reformed and there was a requirement to reform local government. That has been on the statute books for quite a long time. I was interested to hear Lord Morrow talk about the Macrory report. Although I do not remember the workings of it, I have read up about it. It is interesting that reference was made to the fact that Macrory was set in the context of there being a Northern Ireland Government here at Stormont. If that is the case, maybe we should just stick with the 26 councils and reform them to some degree and get better administration, and, maybe a much better —

Maurice (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

Give them some more powers.

Tom Elliott (UUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

Sorry, did you say “more powers” Lord Morrow?

Maurice (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

I was talking about the powers.

Tom Elliott (UUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

Oh yes, the powers. However, Macrory was clearly set in that context, and it is interesting that now that we have back a functioning Northern Ireland Assembly Government, we are moving away from the Macrory proposals. In fairness, we all agree with that, but we need to get the right context and to make sure that we get it right. If we do not, we will have to live with this for maybe another 30 to 40 years.

I reiterate what the Minister and a number of other Members said about local government over the years since the Troubles started. Local government has been the one and only local democracy here in Northern Ireland. When there was conflict, even in their own chambers, councils stood together for their own area. They stood up for their own area and got the best for it, and, I have to say, at times, they had to look at what that was in a much wider Northern Ireland context.

I suppose that when I said that we need to try to get this right, I was hoping that some coterminosity would come out of the boundaries reform and that we would at least have got a level of togetherness on some issues, whether around the health trust areas or the Westminster constituency boundaries. However, we do not seem to have got coterminosity with anything in this 11-council model. That is why, for a long time, we have highlighted our concerns about it. I know that there were a number of different 15-council models, but, from my memory, most of the parties, apart from, I think, Sinn Féin, broadly supported the 15-council models for some years, and there appears to have been compromise or a carve-up — call it what you want — to reach 11.

I want to speak briefly about the finances. I know that three areas of finance are linked to this boundaries review. The first is that of the transition costs. I noted that, in recent correspondence, the Minister indicated — I do not have the exact wording in front of me but he can clarify it if he wants to — that the transition costs of the local government review will be met by local councils. That is an Executive decision. I know that might have been questioned here today, but that is what is in his correspondence. I am happy for him to clarify that now or when he speaks later, but we need clarification because I know that a number of councils and councillors are saying that it is up to the Minister and the Executive to fund this transition, or at least part-fund it or find the mechanism for funding it. Even Mr Boylan said in his contribution that a mechanism needs to be found. I want to hear from the Minister whether a mechanism has been discussed at or rejected by the Executive. We need to hear it and councillors need to hear it. Councillors need to be aware of the exact position and if the Minister is going to put forward proposals to the Executive on that funding mechanism.

The second issue around the boundaries review is rates convergence cost, which is one of the biggest aspects for us in County Fermanagh, and, I appreciate, in some other council areas as well. There have been indications in the past that the Department is looking at mechanisms to finance that or at least make it easier on such councils. However, I can tell you that I have not yet heard how or if that will happen. That is a massive issue for people — businesses and householders — who will be hit with a severe rates increase. They will be hit with one rates increase over the transition costs and by a second, with the rates convergence cost. That will be a huge blow to councils that have been mature in how they spent their money down the years and careful about where they put their finances. It is very unfair for them to be hit with those massive costs. I am interested to hear whether there is any idea as to how those rates convergence costs can be met.

The third part of the finance issue is the transfer of functions. Again, I wonder what discussions there have been with Ministers about what functions will leave their Departments. That is a massive issue, not only for local councils but for Departments. If a lot of functions move out of a Department, there will not be much left in it. I would like to know whether the Minister has engaged with those other Departments and Ministers to establish what functions will be transferred and how that will be funded. In the Minister’s recent correspondence with us, he wrote that the transfer of functions will be rates neutral at the point of transfer. However, it does not say whether it will be rates neutral in three, four, five, six or seven years. Are local ratepayers going to have to pick up that funding again?

There are three hits that the ratepayers will take over the boundaries review and changes: the costs of transition, the convergence of rates and the transfer of functions. Maybe it will be rates neutral at the start, but certainly not in the future.

I do not know how some councils, individuals and ratepayers are looking at the new boundaries. I wonder whether the people of Dundonald realise that they will be part of Moira, and whether the people of Moira realise that they will be a part of Dundonald. Do the people of Rosslea realise that they will be a part of Carrickmore, and vice versa? I do not think that a lot of people realise that, but it is time they woke up and realised the consequences. A lot of that local accountability, history and heritage will depart. No longer will people be a part of their own Fermanagh or Castlereagh council. It is time that people woke up and realised that.

On top of that, we need to be aware of this issue: will we continue with the potential of the single business organisation? That is key to an 11-council model. Some of the clusters say that they are opposed to the single business organisation and others are much more positive about it. We need some clear guidance as to how that will be taken forward.

The next point is the single waste authority. I believe that the three waste authorities in Northern Ireland have been very slow, almost not moving at times. It is very frustrating. They tell us that they are making progress, but when you ask what progress that is, it is very difficult to establish. I wonder whether we should press forward with a single waste authority in the near future.

I pose those questions to the Minister because they are critical and key to the boundary review and the new boundaries. The Ulster Unionist Party believed — as, obviously, others did — that there was a better model than the 11-council one. I and the Ulster Unionist Party believe that the 11-council model is clearly not the perfect solution and not the right one for Northern Ireland. We believe that it is a carve-up and that people came to an agreement simply because it handed the majority of power in one area to one particular party, and the majority of power in another area to another party. That is the reality of it.

I do not know whether the people of Dundonald realise that they will not be a part of Belfast. Do the majority of the people of Omagh realise that they will be a part of Fermanagh? Do the people of Strabane know that they will be a part of Londonderry? What really annoys me is that Omagh wanted to go with Strabane, and Strabane wanted to go with Omagh. Why could that not be facilitated? Practical solutions were rejected because a political carve-up was wanted. That is the reality. It is time we had a fresh look at it.

I know that people say that the model is now there, and we need to get on with it. However, from the indicative timetable that the Minister has supplied, the district electoral area legislation will not go through until, I think, November 2013. There is time to change it. There is time to take forward a much better proposal for the people of Northern Ireland that will suit all the people, or at least the vast majority of them, and not just a couple of political parties in here that are doing it for their own ends.

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

The Business Committee has arranged to meet immediately after the lunchtime suspension. I propose, therefore, by leave of the Assembly, to suspend the sitting until 2.00 pm. The first item of business when the House comes back will be Question Time.

The debate stood suspended.

The sitting was suspended at 12.30 pm.

On resuming (Mr Deputy Speaker [Mr Dallat] in the Chair) —

Speaker’s Business

John Dallat (Social Democratic and Labour Party, East Londonderry)

I inform Members that the Speaker was notified this morning by the First Minister and the deputy First Minister that they have appointed Ms Jennifer McCann to replace Ms Martina Anderson as a junior Minister in the Office of the First Minister and deputy First Minister. Ms McCann affirmed the terms of the Pledge of Office in the presence of the Speaker and the Clerk to the Assembly/Director General, and has now taken up office as a junior Minister. I offer her my congratulations.

Employment and Learning

Pat Doherty (Sinn Féin, West Tyrone)

1. asked the Minister for Employment and Learning how his Department intends to increase higher education provision within regional colleges. (AQO 2136/11-15)

Stephen Farry (Alliance, North Down)

I join you, Mr Deputy Speaker, in congratulating Jennifer McCann on her appointment. I look forward to working with her. In light of yesterday’s announcement, I also recognise the contribution to the Assembly made by Mr Doherty.

In response to the question, I am fully committed to further education colleges delivering higher education courses. For 2012-13, my Department has increased the overall higher education allocation to colleges by almost £1·6 million. I am particularly committed to expanding intermediate level provision through the expansion of work-based foundation degrees, with a target of increasing foundation degree enrolments to 2,500 by March 2015, from a baseline of 1,132 enrolments in 2010. Importantly, our colleges and universities work in partnership with employers to ensure that higher education provision delivered by colleges meets the needs of the Northern Ireland economy. There is a particular focus on STEM — science, technology, engineering and mathematics — subjects.

There are 11,000 students taking higher education courses in further education colleges, on both a full-time and part-time basis, which is around 20% of the total higher education enrolments. In the current academic year, the total number of funded full-time higher education places in colleges is 3,833, which represents a 15% increase since 2002. Also, in December 2011, I announced an additional 70 full-time higher education places for further education, the first tranche of which has been allocated for 2012-13. There are around 7,000 part-time higher education enrolments in further education. The Department does not place a cap on part-time higher education places. Therefore, the expansion of part-time provision within existing budgets offers colleges another route to increase higher education provision.

John Dallat (Social Democratic and Labour Party, East Londonderry)

Before calling Mr Doherty for a supplementary question, I point out that question 7 has been withdrawn and requires a written answer. Question 8 has been transferred to the Department of Education, again for a written answer.

Pat Doherty (Sinn Féin, West Tyrone)

Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. I thank the Minister for his answer. I also thank him for his congratulations to our new junior Minister, Jennifer McCann, and, indeed, his comments towards myself.

Will the Minister expand further on his Department’s commitment to establishing a greater rural base for the delivery of higher education courses in our regional colleges? Is the Minister thinking of establishing a pilot scheme around any of the regional colleges?

Stephen Farry (Alliance, North Down)

I thank Mr Doherty for his supplementary question. My Department’s higher education strategy, Graduating to Success, which was launched in April this year, makes clear that we are committed to working with the higher and further education sectors to develop a pilot scheme for the creation of university bases in colleges. I believe that the establishment of such learning and study facilities will improve the opportunity for higher education students to undertake part of their undergraduate course locally with access to university materials and resources. That is something that we have reflected in the ‘Rural White Paper Action Plan’.

Pat Ramsey (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

Like the Minister, on behalf of the SDLP, I wish Jennifer McCann well in her new appointment as junior Minister. As this may be Pat Doherty’s last question here, I wish him all the best as he departs from this gracious House.

What discussions has the Minister had with colleges in Northern Ireland about course provision, particularly in light of the priority given to STEM subjects in courses provided through the colleges?

Stephen Farry (Alliance, North Down)

I thank Mr Ramsey for his question. My Department is taking a very clear direction of travel that is in line with the Programme for Government and the economic strategy. We are asking all third-level education providers to have an increased focus on STEM subjects and other economically relevant subjects. We are also looking at what we do in other provision in that area, and we are seeing progress in all that work. It is, of course, for the colleges and universities to set their own curricula. My Department does not seek to micromanage, but I think that it is fair to say that all the directors of the colleges and the vice chancellors of the universities are very clear in their responsibilities to Northern Ireland and the economy, and they are very aware of our wider objectives as an Administration.

Danny Kinahan (UUP, South Antrim)

I also congratulate Jennifer McCann, and I wish Pat Doherty all the best in the future and hope that he takes up his post. [Laughter.]

The Minister mentioned that 1,132 places were taken up and that there is a target of 2,500. What are the targets for the future years? How are those places linked to possible jobs or studies, and what jobs will they lead to?

Stephen Farry (Alliance, North Down)

I thank Mr Kinahan for his supplementary question. I want to be clear: we are talking about a baseline figure of 1,132 at present. That is not 1,132 places filled out of a total of 2,500 allocated places. We are talking about seeking to increase that figure to 2,500 by March 2015. Essentially, that is more than doubling the number doing foundation degrees, which are very much geared towards employers’ needs. That type of approach is often the most flexible way of engaging directly with the ongoing skills needs at the higher level that employers are articulating. Of course, it is open for people who do a foundation degree to progress to a full honours degree, depending on their circumstances, but we are very keen to promote foundation degrees as an entry point to higher education or as something that is of value in and of itself.

Chris Lyttle (Alliance, Belfast East)

2. asked the Minister for Employment and Learning for an update on the learner access engagement programme. (AQO 2137/11-15)

Stephen Farry (Alliance, North Down)

I recently received the final longitudinal evaluation report from PricewaterhouseCoopers on the learner access and engagement pilot programme (LAEP). That report can be accessed via my Department’s website. Significantly, almost one half of the programme’s enrolments came from the 20% most deprived areas of Northern Ireland. The programme, which recognises the unique strengths of further education colleges and non-statutory organisations, has successfully raised the profile of local colleges, and its mentoring aspect, which community organisations provide, has played a key role in recruiting, retaining and enabling hard-to-reach learners to achieve qualifications. In light of the evaluation report’s very positive findings and recommendations, I have given my approval to proceed with the development of a mainstream programme, which will commence in the 2012-13 academic year.

Chris Lyttle (Alliance, Belfast East)

I welcome that announcement from the Minister. I have seen in my constituency the effectiveness of the programme in action. How important is it for our regional colleges to work in partnership with local community groups to ensure that we get skills to those hardest-to-reach adults?

Stephen Farry (Alliance, North Down)

I thank Mr Lyttle for his supplementary question. It is important to recognise that we have a fully comprehensive set of programmes and courses available formally through colleges; indeed, that is reflected in other aspects of our work. However, it can, at times, be more effective to work and engage at a community level, particularly when we are trying to encourage people who have been out of education for some time or who may be facing barriers. The LAEP has been very successful in engaging with people in that regard, and I am very satisfied with the conclusions that we reached in it. The participants warmly welcomed it. One of the key features was the strong partnerships that were developed over time between colleges and the community sector. I look forward to that being replicated in the mainstream programme.

Gregory Campbell (DUP, East Londonderry)

The Minister mentioned the most deprived areas and hard-to-reach areas, which are often synonymous. How will he measure the success of attracting people into the programme from communities that, by and large, over the past 20 or 30 years have not reached the fulfilment necessary to get into full-time employment?

Stephen Farry (Alliance, North Down)

I thank Mr Campbell for his question. LAEP is designed to reach those who have been disengaged, and I regard it as very important. There is a track record in accessing the hardest-to-reach communities. I am conscious that there are capacity issues in different parts of the community, and we are mindful about the future design of the programme to ensure that, as far as possible, we have consistent outreach across Northern Ireland to all sections of the community.

Michelle Gildernew (Sinn Féin, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

Go raibh míle maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. I thank the Minister for his answers thus far. For many people, access to broadband is a particular barrier. Does the Minister’s Department work closely with the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Investment (DETI) and the Department of Agriculture and Rural Development (DARD) to address that barrier to improve access for learners from rural areas, given the dire broadband provision there?

Stephen Farry (Alliance, North Down)

I thank the Member for her question. I have listened to people’s concerns about access to broadband in rural areas. Although it is not the direct responsibility of my Department, I am more than happy to engage with my colleagues in DETI and DARD to make sure that we have equitable access across the community. We talk about reaching the most deprived communities, but they are not just urban communities; they are often rural communities as well, and isolation can be particularly acute in such settings.

Mike Nesbitt (UUP, Strangford)

I thank the Minister for his answers. I was particularly struck by his affirmation of the value of the work done at community level by colleges in identifying and addressing local need, which makes me wonder why it was necessary to pay consultants to tell them that they were doing a good job.

Stephen Farry (Alliance, North Down)

I thank Mr Nesbitt for his question. It is important that we be realistic about how government works, particularly when justifying the investment of significant resources. We are investing a seven-figure sum into LAEP, and government expects us, as, indeed, do the Audit Office and the Public Accounts Committee, to show proper diligence in the programmes and investments that we design. That having been said, I am determined that we will press on rapidly over the summer to ensure that we have a mainstream programme in place as quickly as we can for the new academic year.

Jonathan Craig (DUP, Lagan Valley)

3. asked the Minister for Employment and Learning what measures his Department has taken to align university courses with business and industry needs. (AQO 2138/11-15)

Stephen Farry (Alliance, North Down)

My Department recently published Graduating to Success, which is the higher education strategy. It fully recognised the need to rebalance the profile of provision so that the qualifications offered will more closely reflect the needs of the economy. Universities must ensure that graduates develop the skills needed to exploit future employment opportunities and that the work-ready requirements of employers are met.

In December 2011, I committed to funding an additional 700 university places in economically relevant subjects by 2014-15. In addition, to take account of the needs of the local economy, I will be implementing a new research funding model from academic year 2012-13, which will include a premium targeted specifically at research in science, technology, engineering and mathematics subjects and areas of wider economic relevance.

In information and communication technology, I have convened a working group that brings together key stakeholders to consider how the current and future skills needs of the sector can be addressed. An action plan will be published that will outline initiatives to address the challenges facing the sector. Queen’s University and the University of Ulster have announced that they will offer a postgraduate MSc course aimed at non-IT graduates in the next academic year to meet the needs of the ICT sector.

Employability skills are also a key focus in the strategy, and my Department expects that all learners will have the opportunity to undertake a period of work placement while undertaking a higher education course. The business sector will also be encouraged to support such opportunities, and that is further developed in my Department’s skills strategy and employer engagement plan.

Jonathan Craig (DUP, Lagan Valley)

I thank the Minister for that comprehensive answer. Does he agree that in software programming and the industries that rely on it, there are 10 places for every graduate and that there is a dearth of people going into those industries? Is it the case that we do not provide enough careers advice to get people into such industries? Would the Minister look at providing funded places on relevant courses? I know that, in the past, the Engineering Council did so to get people interested in that field.

Stephen Farry (Alliance, North Down)

I thank Mr Craig for his supplementary question and, in particular, for highlighting one of the most critical areas for the future of Northern Ireland’s economy. We already have a strong ICT base in Northern Ireland, but we also have the potential to grow that significantly over the coming years. It is important that we have the right skills to address the requirements of growing local companies and new investors. For that reason, we convened the ICT working group, which is due to report on and publish its action plan in the next few weeks.

We are looking at the full spectrum of interventions required to promote that aspect of the economy. That includes looking at careers; the work around A levels in schools; how universities attract students; how employers offer placements to students; and how we collectively talk up the fact that the industry provides effective and attractive careers. It is particularly important that we count people working in software development, which is distinct from more general ICT, as real professionals. Someone who is good at science at school does not have to become a doctor or other health professional, as important as those professions are, but can consider working in software instead. Software jobs can be very rewarding for economic growth and are some of the best paid, on average, in our economy.

Paul Maskey (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. I pass on my congratulations to my party and constituency colleague Jennifer McCann on her new role as junior Minister.

I thank the Minister for his answers so far. Is research being done on future employment opportunities? What jobs are coming down the line for those now at university? Are they being skilled up so that they are job-ready when they come out of university?

Stephen Farry (Alliance, North Down)

I thank the Member for his supplementary question. I also pass on my recognition of his work in the Assembly, in light of yesterday’s announcement about him and some of his colleagues.

I want to stress two things in response to the question. First, we are doing a lot of work to project our economy’s skills requirements. In the event that we achieve a lower level of corporation tax, there will be some shifts in those requirements. So it is important that we ask such questions now in anticipation of what will, hopefully, be good news following other discussions in due course.

We are also working to try to link much more effectively the needs of today’s employers to the nature of courses undertaken in higher and further education. I do not want to imply that we are, all of a sudden, turning higher education into something that is simply about mechanically churning out workers. It is still important that we teach people critical analysis and how to think. Nevertheless, subtle changes in the overall balance of graduates are needed to ensure that we are much more in tune with the future needs of our economy. We have to match supply with demand. We cannot really afford much room for error in an economy such as Northern Ireland’s.

Sandra Overend (UUP, Mid Ulster)

Given the obvious need to align university courses with business and industry, does the Minister agree that the powers within the Department for Employment and Learning would be best suited to the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Investment following the imminent dissolution of his Department?

Stephen Farry (Alliance, North Down)

I thank the Member for her question. I am already on record as saying that, as far as my party is concerned, we want to see a single Department of the economy in due course as part of a wider restructuring. If decisions are taken elsewhere that we are to have an advanced rationalisation, I nevertheless think that we need to see a proper Department of the economy where we link the suppliers of skills with those who are best placed to articulate the needs of the economy and employers. It is important that we have that overarching perspective within whatever structures we take forward.

Things are working well at present. It is important to reflect that, whether we are talking about students in schools taking up STEM-type subjects at GCSE level and A level or about people going to university, over the past 18 months, we have already seen a significant increase in applications for STEM subjects. That is an encouraging demonstration of how co-ordinated government policy is having an effect on the ground.

John McCallister (UUP, South Down)

4. asked the Minister for Employment and Learning for an update on the planned diagnosis of the employability skills of unemployed young people. (AQO 2139/11-15)

Stephen Farry (Alliance, North Down)

My Department is developing a package of measures to tackle youth unemployment. A key feature of that initiative is the engagement between the employment service adviser and the client in assessing employability skills and needs. That engagement is facilitated by an employability assessment tool that helps the adviser to assess the client’s work readiness and to then develop a package of support tailored to their individual needs and aimed at helping them to move into work.

The tools have been developed by the occupational psychology service within the Department for people claiming both jobseeker’s allowance and employment and support allowance, and they are currently being tested in 12 offices across Northern Ireland. We will review the effectiveness of the tools in the coming months, with a view to putting diagnostic arrangements in place throughout Northern Ireland by the end of the year.

Other aspects of the new youth employment programme will include a short period of work experience, employer subsidies and longer periods of work experience focused on areas with the potential to rebuild and rebalance the economy.

John McCallister (UUP, South Down)

I am grateful to the Minister for his reply. Has he set any specific targets for Pathways to Success, his strategy for young people who are not in education, employment or training (NEETs), which he launched yesterday?

Stephen Farry (Alliance, North Down)

I thank Mr McCallister for his supplementary question, which takes a considerable leap across. What I will say in relation to NEETs, and to link the issue to the diagnostics mentioned in the answer to the main question, is that there is a lot of work to be done to work with people who are facing barriers when it comes to signposting. The Careers Service has an important role to play, and, indeed, my Department’s officials and the community sector have an important role to play in mentoring.

We are very seized of the issue of NEETS. We know what our existing baselines are. A large aspect of that, however, is determined by our overall levels of unemployment. Those figures have risen significantly over the past five years. They have now stabilised over the past 12 months but are still at a very high level. A lot of that will be influenced in the coming months by what we can do with demand and, in turn, matching that demand with effective supply.

Colum Eastwood (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

Given the Minister’s announcement yesterday about young people who are not in employment, education or training, how does he intend to address the issue of upskilling young people in particularly hard-to-reach and marginalised areas?

Stephen Farry (Alliance, North Down)

I thank Mr Eastwood for his question. There is a common theme in a lot of the policies that my Department has developed, particularly over the past 12 months. We are very focused on upskilling and progression. Where we can see opportunities to focus the training that we are investing in on the future skills needs of the economy, we will take those opportunities, because, in doing so, we get a double win. Not only are we involving people more in the economy, both for their own sake and for that of the wider society, but we are ensuring that, where they are becoming engaged, they are doing so with skills. That applies as much in what we do with NEETs as it does in what we do with the more mainstream youth unemployment programmes, across our further and higher education offering and with initiatives such as apprenticeships.

George Robinson (DUP, East Londonderry)

Will these measures take into consideration the employability skills of young people with disabilities?

Stephen Farry (Alliance, North Down)

The Department does a lot of work based around people who face a range of different barriers, including physical ones. The disability employment service, part of the wider employment service, looks specifically at those details. The aspects of that are probably too numerous for me to recite at this moment, but I will write to Mr Robinson setting out the full spectrum of programmes that we have.

Sydney Anderson (DUP, Upper Bann)

5. asked the Minister for Employment and Learning for an update on the employer engagement plan. (AQO 2140/11-15)

Stephen Farry (Alliance, North Down)

I published my Department’s employer engagement plan in March. It makes a major contribution to how I intend to implement the skills strategy for Northern Ireland, ‘Success through Skills – Transforming Futures’. The plan focuses on how my Department will engage with businesses over the coming years to encourage them to raise the skill levels of their employees so that we can rebalance and rebuild our economy in line with the Northern Ireland economic strategy. The employer engagement plan includes over 20 projects and initiatives, the first of which will be delivered over the next 18 months.

We have made significant progress in a number of important areas. By the end of March 2012, our skills solutions service, which works with employers to upskill their existing employees, had made a total of 737 contacts with companies, exceeding the target of having 600 contacts with employers by September 2012. Nine priority economic sectors that my Department will focus its provision on in the coming budgetary period have been identified. Collaborative working with the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Investment’s foresight unit is being further developed in order to identify the skills needed for emerging and niche sectors. This will be an ongoing process to ensure that we exploit the commercial opportunities from scientific innovations and rebalance the future economy.

Six projects have been approved in the 2011-12 financial year through the joint Department for Employment and Learning and Invest NI assured skills initiative, which supported the promotion of 726 jobs. An employer engagement unit was established in my Department in January to provide enhanced recruitment services to employers. The unit works in partnership with other employer-facing staff in the Department.

Sydney Anderson (DUP, Upper Bann)

I thank the Minister for his comprehensive reply. The employer engagement plan sets no fewer than 11 targets to be met by September 2012. Are all 11 targets on track to be met by September, or is there any slippage?

Stephen Farry (Alliance, North Down)

It is important that we stick as far as we can to the targets that we set, and I am confident that we are on track for meeting the vast bulk of them. I will come back to the Member in detail as to how we are getting on with the 11 specific targets he referred to.

In my original answer, I referred to the fact that we have already exceeded some of the targets, in particular, through the assured skills programme. I mention that just as we are joined by my colleague the Minister of Enterprise, Trade and Investment. We have made significant improvements during this year on the number of projects that we have supported in the past financial year, so we are seeing that particular programme striding forward.

Mickey Brady (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. Will the Minister provide an update on the work of the engineering skills working group?

Stephen Farry (Alliance, North Down)

I have been very conscious of comments made by a number of elected representatives, as well as representatives from the engineering sector in Northern Ireland, regarding particular skills issues.

Over the past number of weeks, the Northern Ireland skills adviser, Bill McGinnis, has been conducting a scoping exercise on my behalf with a number of employers. We are due to convene a stakeholder group meeting before the end of this month where we intend to work through those issues. On the basis of what happens at that event, we will take further decisions on whether we need to create a standing working group to work through particular points. However, we are making good progress in that regard, and I recognise this as an important sector for the future of our economy.

Enterprise, Trade and Investment

John Dallat (Social Democratic and Labour Party, East Londonderry)

Questions 1, 8 and 9 have been withdrawn and require written answers.

Karen McKevitt (Social Democratic and Labour Party, South Down)

2. asked the Minister of Enterprise, Trade and Investment what investigations her Department has made into the potential for non-bank finance for local businesses. (AQO 2151/11-15)

Arlene Foster (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

Access to finance remains a key challenge for many businesses throughout Northern Ireland. That was highlighted in the Executive’s economic strategy. During the 2011-12 financial year, Invest NI offered over £89 million of financial assistance to companies across Northern Ireland, which will lead to total investment in the local economy of £451 million. Invest NI is putting in place a range of funds that will make in excess of £100 million available to local businesses. The funds will ensure that early-stage companies with high growth potential are not held back because they cannot access finance. In early April 2012, Alastair Hamilton, Invest Northern Ireland’s chief executive, wrote to all MLAs outlining Invest Northern Ireland’s access to finance strategy to highlight the significant role the funds will play in aiding the liquidity of local SMEs.

I welcome the recent publication of ‘Signposts to Funding Opportunities’ by Diane Dodds, one of our Members of the European Parliament. It is designed to assist businesses by introducing a wide range of funding programmes that exist in the United Kingdom and the European Union. I also recently announced that the economic advisory group will be undertaking a study that will examine whether there are gaps in the provision of finance, as well as what the Executive might do differently to ensure that SMEs have the necessary access to finance to start and grow their businesses.

Karen McKevitt (Social Democratic and Labour Party, South Down)

What discussions has the Minister had with the UK Government on the implementation of the recommendations from the industry working group led by Tim Breedon from the Association of British Insurers that the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills set up to undertake a review of how to expand access to non-bank lending?

Arlene Foster (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

The Breedon report, which has proposals to widen business access to new and alternative sources of finance, was published in March 2012. I have not yet had the opportunity to speak with Vince Cable about it. However, we have, of course, been looking at its main recommendations, which include increasing awareness of alternative financing by creating a single business support agency to deliver the national Government’s range of SME finance programmes, drawing on international examples, such as Germany, allowing industry to establish a business finance advice network and opening up access to capital markets financing for small companies through the creation of a body to bundle and secure SME loans. Of course, Invest Northern Ireland has gone ahead of the Breedon report in Northern Ireland and has made available a particular range of programmes that help large companies right down to microfinance. I certainly hope that that will go some way towards addressing the finance gap that we all know is present in Northern Ireland and across the UK.

Ian McCrea (DUP, Mid Ulster)

In her answer to the substantive question, the Minister referred to the access to finance strategy. Will she provide the House with more detail on exactly what that is?

Arlene Foster (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

The access to finance strategy came about because the chief executive of Invest Northern Ireland and I were very concerned that, when we visited companies, we saw that the recurring theme was the inability to access money that would allow them to either continue to exist or to grow. Therefore, funding initiatives have been made available. The Northern Ireland Spin Out fund (NISPO) has been in existence since 2009, so it obviously predates this initiative, but we are wrapping it in and around everything else that is going on. Co-Fund NI involves Invest Northern Ireland co-investing on a pari passu basis with a private investor. Of the development fund, the SME growth loan fund and the small business loan fund the only one not in existence at present is the small business loan fund. We hope that it will be operational by September. It is a very important fund because it will provide loans typically ranging from £1,000 to £5,000 for very small, possibly even single-person companies that are having great difficulty finding funds on a commercial basis. It is a very important fund and will be operational by September.

Leslie Cree (UUP, North Down)

The Minister referred to the good work done by Invest Northern Ireland. Will she advise on the proposal for enterprise loans that the Chancellor made in the recent Budget? Will that have any particular benefit for Northern Ireland or any particular application to complement what is already in existence?

Arlene Foster (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

As I understand it, the enterprise loans are just for England at present. It is hoped that, if they work in England, they will have an application right across the United Kingdom. They have been introduced only in England at present, but we will watch closely to see how they could impact on small and medium-sized businesses across the UK.

George Robinson (DUP, East Londonderry)

3. asked the Minister of Enterprise, Trade and Investment for an update on the number of jobs created, to date, through the Boosting Business jobs fund. (AQO 2152/11-15)

Arlene Foster (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

The various jobs fund measures will specifically seek to create 4,000 jobs by March 2014. The measures focus on a range of sectors and programmes and include support for new business starts by residents of neighbourhood renewal areas and young people not in employment, education or training; broader support for social enterprises; a new programme to accelerate business growth; employment support to specifically create new jobs across a range of sectors; and specific support through the Department for Employment and Learning’s Steps to Work employer subsidy to provide additional incentive to create new jobs for the unemployed.

To date, there has been a very encouraging uptake across the range of jobs fund measures, as evidenced by the positive results in the first year of the scheme. The jobs fund exceeded its year 1 target by promoting 2,390 jobs against a target of 2,250 and actually creating 1,021 jobs against a target of 1,015, which represents an impressive conversion rate of 43%. In addition, Invest Northern Ireland has created a healthy pipeline with over 180 diverse projects at different stages of development. Collectively, these business investment projects have the potential to create a further 1,700 new jobs. Invest NI continues to work with a wide range of businesses and stakeholders across Northern Ireland to promote the scheme and support new job creation projects.

George Robinson (DUP, East Londonderry)

I thank the Minister for her answer and the good news story that it contains. Does the Minister have any new job figures for my East Londonderry constituency specifically?

Arlene Foster (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

All politics is local. I thank the Member for his question. As of 8 June 2012, 61 projects have been added to Invest NI’s work in progress in East Londonderry since the launch of Boosting Business in November 2011. Those projects have the potential to create approximately 50 new jobs and lever in investment of over £4·5 million. As well as that, a total of 80 enquiries for the constituency have been received and logged through the Boosting Business enquiry handling centre. Of those, 18 have been referred to other Invest NI teams for further action.

Daithí McKay (Sinn Féin, North Antrim)

Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. Can the Minister provide an update on how the figures outlined compare with those set out in the Programme for Government targets? Perhaps she can also give us an update on how many jobs were created in North Antrim.

Arlene Foster (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

It will not come as any surprise that I do not have the North Antrim figures in front of me. However, I am happy to provide figures similar to those I gave for East Londonderry.

In relation to Invest NI’s 2011-12 end-of-year results, the targets for jobs promoted and jobs created have been exceeded, which is very pleasing. In fact, all the targets set for Invest NI for this year have been met apart from two. One of those is relevant to the subject that we discussed yesterday, namely the need for more to be done on research and development and innovation and, especially, to get more businesses to invest in it. The second, relating to start-up businesses, is no surprise either, given the lack of a contract being awarded because of the legal processes that were ongoing last year. However, I can tell the House that the tender is now out for that business start-up programme. It is in the Official Journal of the European Union. People have 40 days to apply, and it is my hope that the tender will then be awarded, subject to legal processes, obviously, by September of this year. We are keen that that should be in place, nobody more so than me.

Pat Ramsey (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

I welcome the Minister’s response to date. How does the Department assess performance across all constituencies in Northern Ireland to make sure that there is continuity and consistency of the fund?

Arlene Foster (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

In the past, we were not able to get the figures, and I know that it was a source of some frustration to Members that we were talking about jobs promoted yet were not able to look at jobs created. That issue was raised with me on a number of occasions. We can now provide the figures, so, if Members wish, we can supply the appropriate material for each Member’s constituency.

William Humphrey (DUP, Belfast North)

4. asked the Minister of Enterprise, Trade and Investment for an update on the development of tourism in Belfast over the last three years. (AQO 2153/11-15)

Arlene Foster (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

Belfast has seen significant development over the past number of years, with the reopening of the Ulster Museum and the Lyric Theatre; the opening of the MAC, Belfast’s new arts centre; developments at Belfast zoo; and, of course, Titanic Belfast. Those examples and many more provide a wide range of attractions for tourists to see in Belfast, which is now listed in Fodor’s travel guide as one of the top visitor destinations. There are further plans to develop a conference and exhibition centre to add to the product on offer and attract the lucrative business tourism market. All of that is testament to the good working relationships between the Northern Ireland Tourist Board, the Belfast Visitor and Convention Bureau, the city council and Tourism Ireland to ensure that Belfast continues to grow as a tourism destination, with an increase in visitor numbers and revenue.

William Humphrey (DUP, Belfast North)

I thank the Minister for her answer. I declare an interest as a member of the board of the Belfast Visitor and Convention Bureau.

Does the Minister agree with me that the way forward for tourism in Belfast, which has grown exponentially over the past number of years, is to continue with the collaborative approach between the Tourist Board, the Belfast Visitor and Convention Bureau, Belfast City Council and her Department?

Arlene Foster (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

I thank the Member for his question. I was in City Hall just yesterday with my good friend and party colleague, the Lord Mayor of Belfast, Gavin Robinson, at the official launch of Super-connected Belfast, at which I was more than happy to demonstrate my support for the super-connected city project for Belfast, which will bring the new digital connected programme. Belfast is one of 10 cities bidding for money through that programme, and I am very hopeful that it will get the maximum amount available, because of the fact that it is working collaboratively with Departments, other agencies and the business community.

One of the best examples of partnership working has been shown to be Titanic Belfast. All the agencies worked together to deliver the signature project on time and on budget, and I am delighted to tell the House that I understand that visitor numbers are in excess of 200,000. All involved are absolutely delighted at the number of visitors to date. You may recall that the annual visitor target is 425,000, so we have almost reached the halfway mark, and the signature project has been open for just over two months. It is an absolutely brilliant piece of work by all concerned, and we are very pleased with the way in which it is going.

Sue Ramsey (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. I thank the Minister for her update thus far, and I take the opportunity to commend all those involved in increasing the visitor numbers to Belfast.

Political tourism attracts a lot of people to parts of my constituency, including the Falls and the Shankill, and it has a positive impact on people coming here. Can the Minister outline today, in writing if she has not got the answer with her, whether there is a strategy that her Department, Tourism Ireland, the Tourist Board or Belfast City Council has to further enhance visitor numbers coming here to take part in political tourism?

Arlene Foster (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

There is always a discussion over whether we should look to the past or the future in Northern Ireland. I know that very many visitors who come to Belfast want to look at our past, and many of them will take a black taxi tour to different areas of the city. That is very good, but we want to mix that with the future Belfast as well, and that is what we are trying to do through all the new developments that I mentioned, whether it is the MAC, the Lyric Theatre or Titanic Belfast.

I think that there is a cultural offering that is unique to Belfast. We should not shy away from that. I have always said that, if we want visitors to come to Belfast and the rest of Northern Ireland, we must be authentic in what we do, and, therefore, we have to face up to our past. I hope that we can do that in a mature way, so that, when people visit us, they get the factual context of what happened in Northern Ireland.

Patsy McGlone (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Mid Ulster)

Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. I hope the Minister will accept that the cultural offering is not exclusive to Belfast. Given her roots and background, will the Minister assure us that areas beyond Belfast will not be forgotten about in the promotion of tourism and its values?

Arlene Foster (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

I assure the Member that the whole of Northern Ireland is very much on my agenda. He will know that from the number of visits that I make right across Northern Ireland. Of course, cultural activities will take place right across Northern Ireland, particularly on 12 July. I know that the city of Londonderry is looking forward to its year of culture next year as well. Of course the rest of Northern Ireland beyond Belfast benefits from tourism, but we must realise that Belfast is our capital city, and, if people come here for short breaks, they tend to come just to Belfast. Our challenge is to signpost those visitors to attractions right across Northern Ireland, so that, when they return, they can go to all the other places that we want them to visit.

Jim Allister (Traditional Unionist Voice, North Antrim)

Whereas there have been many good news stories on tourism, can the Minister explain how we have reached the situation where there is a threat to remove HMS Caroline from Belfast to Portsmouth? Can she assure the House that all that needs to be done will be done to retain that vessel, which itself has immense tourism potential?

Arlene Foster (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

Not only has it immense tourism potential, it has immense historical and cultural significance for Northern Ireland, as it is the last battleship that served in the First World War and at the battle of Jutland. HMS Caroline has been berthed in Belfast since 1924 but was only decommissioned from the Ministry of Defence in March last year. Since then, despite the fact that the responsibility does not all fall to me as tourism Minister, I have taken up the case. I commissioned a business case in August last year. I have only recently received that business case, and I hope to meet the Minister of State for the Armed Forces Nick Harvey in the very near future to discuss HMS Caroline.

Of course we want to keep HMS Caroline in Belfast. I believe that the solution is a partnership with the National Museum of the Royal Navy, which owns the ship, so that we can keep it here in Belfast. It would cost a huge amount of money to take Caroline to Portsmouth. Would it not be much better to see her preserved here in Belfast? Therefore, I have no difficulty in assuring the Member that I will do everything in my power to find a workable and sustainable solution to keeping Caroline here in Belfast.

Pat Doherty (Sinn Féin, West Tyrone)

5. asked the Minister of Enterprise, Trade and Investment what steps she intends to take to secure greater capital investment in the tourism industry in West Tyrone. (AQO 2154/11-15)