Northern Ireland Assembly, 26 November 2012

290 contributions from 63 members. The official report.

Assembly Business

Phil Flanagan (Sinn Féin, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

On a point of order, Mr Speaker. Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. At the weekend, we had the DUP party conference, and the Minister of Enterprise, Trade and Investment took the opportunity to announce a review in —

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

Order. That is not a point of order. I advise the Member to follow it through other channels, rather than through a point of order.

Ministerial Statements

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. With your permission, I wish to make a statement to update Members on the work that my Department has carried out to tackle the problem of financial corrections, which are commonly known as disallowance, applied by the European Commission. In doing so, I will provide an update on the levels of disallowance and the degree to which, I think, we are making progress on these issues. I also want to give Members some detail on the changes that are taking place and the implications of those for farmers. In particular, I want to tell Members about the developments with regard to our legal challenge to the Commission and about the issue of new maps to farmers for 2013.

The Department of Agriculture and Rural Development (DARD) is one of over 80 accredited paying agencies in the European Union. Each year, we pay out around €300 million to the agriculture industry under the single farm payment scheme in addition to moneys expended under the rural development programme. We are accountable to the European Commission for that spend. We have to be able to provide an assurance that there are sufficient controls in place to guarantee that accurate and timely payments are made to those who are eligible for the aid.

As Members know, Commission auditors raised concerns that our mapping system was not good enough, the inspections were not good enough and our approach to sanctions and penalties was too lenient. It also took the view that our approach to allowing different farmers to use the same field to support different schemes did not meet the requirements of EU legislation. There were other audit recommendations, but these represent the most significant sources of disallowance. It is important to note that many other member states face sizeable disallowances, and the position on that has become clearer since I last addressed the Assembly on the matter. The latest Commission announcement on disallowance confirmed that, in total, €215 million will be recovered across a number of member states, including Sweden, Spain, Italy and the South of Ireland. It is clear that, although the Commission raised concerns here, it has also identified shortcomings across many other member states, including some regarding mapping and inspection controls. It is important, therefore, that paying agencies seek to learn from one another in improving our systems, even though the systems operated vary across the member states.

I have an update on the financial corrections imposed so far. When I spoke to the House last November, I outlined the financial corrections that we expected and had accrued. I focused on the area aids corrections, as those constituted the largest sums of disallowance. There has been no significant change to the figures, but some confirmation of figures already proposed has been received. In September this year, the Commission confirmed its position on area aids for the 2007 and 2008 scheme years and entitlements for the 2008 and 2009 scheme years. At that time, I wrote to the Agriculture and Rural Development Committee about the issue. As I said in my statement on 21 November last year, DARD had already accrued £33·18 million to meet the disallowance. For the 2009 scheme year, the Commission has accepted our assessment of the risk to the fund for single farm payments and proposed a disallowance of €17·69 million. We are waiting for the audit to clear all the processes and expect the Commission to confirm that amount in the coming months. Again, the money to cover that has already been accrued.

Of course, the potential for disallowance for other scheme years still exists, and I turn now to the situation for the 2010 and 2011 scheme years. The Commission has written to the Department about the corrective action that we have taken in the 2010 and 2011 years. Given that the Commission has accepted our assessment of the risk to the fund for the single farm payment scheme for 2009, we have undertaken risk assessments for the 2010 and 2011 scheme years. Work on those is under way, and we are confident that they will show that the risk to the fund in those years is reduced. In addition, I expect that the changes we have introduced will enhance the Commission’s confidence in our paying agency controls when considering those years and, indeed, into the future.

Other audits involving smaller sums of money are also outstanding. They relate to cross-compliance, pre-2005 bovine and ovine payments and rural development. They continue to progress through the Commission processes, and we await final proposals from the Commission on all three. Again, those issues and the related provisions have already been discussed.

Ensuring good compliance is an important component of the way forward. I will speak about that shortly. However, we have also challenged Commission decisions, most notably in the case that the Department has taken to the European Court of Justice. There has been a significant development in that matter. The initial challenge regarding the calculation of penalties in the 2006 scheme year has encountered problems around the standing of the Department to take such a case. Members will recall that the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (DEFRA) was not prepared to take the case at that time. I have now asked DEFRA to take a separate case on the decision in regard to the 2007 and 2008 scheme years. I am pleased to tell the House that I have been successful in persuading the British Government to take that new case. That removes the difficult issue of standing and allows the court to focus on the substantive issues of the case. The case has now been lodged with the European Court. That means that, if the original case is ultimately ruled inadmissible on standing, the second case will still ensure that the issue of the calculation of penalties is challenged. Although that is good news, the outworking of the challenge is likely to take years to work through the legal processes.

In addition to the challenge, I am focused on compliance. I have in place a comprehensive programme of work to address concerns raised by the Commission, and this is already bearing fruit.

In looking at the on-the-spot inspections, my Department has enhanced the training and guidance for our inspectors through the provision of improved guidance and more detailed protocols. The electronic system used to process inspection results has been further refined to deliver a more consistent and repeatable control and facilitate a more accurate flow of information from the claim to the on-the-spot check and through to payment.

With improved management information, managers are better equipped to manage and monitor the flow of inspection cases through the system. Quality assurance measures have been integrated into inspection activities to maintain and improve the accuracy and quality of the process. I recognise that the consequence of the improvements had a knock-on effect on the processing of many 2011 payments and created unacceptable delays in some. However, the enhancements have now enabled us to process more 2012 inspection cases than was the position at the same date in 2011.

In addition, as part of our ongoing work to improve control arrangements, the Department has, this year, introduced remote sensing technology as a method of completing 250 on-the-spot checks. This technology allows inspections to be carried out using satellite imagery. It will also enable us to check claimed parcels remotely and provides a facility to compare the measured area parcel with the area declared on the single application form.

In cases in which it is not possible to fully interpret the agricultural parcel using the satellite image, a rapid field visit will be performed by our inspection staff to inspect those areas of discrepancy. The combination of remote sensing and rapid field visits has the potential to reduce the burden of on-farm inspections on farm businesses in the future. Also, this approach will help to ensure the increased consistency and standardisation of on-the-spot checks, seen as a critical factor by the Commission when applying the scheme rules.

I intend to significantly increase the number of on-the-spot inspections carried out by remote sensing in 2013 because this has the potential to speed up the inspection process and payments in future years. I am reviewing the success of the process as deployed in 2012, in light of which I will make a further announcement in coming months. I am determined that we use modern technology to accelerate payments to farmers at the earliest opportunity.

Another action that we took to address the auditors’ concerns was to participate in an extremely demanding legality and regularity audit, as set out in the Commission’s guidelines. Under this, the Audit Office undertook an in-depth examination of DARD's procedures and control framework in 2011. That involved repeating a large number of inspections in that year to see whether they were correct.

The Audit Office submitted its report to the Commission by the deadline of 1 September this year. The Commission is considering the report, and, although I am not in a position to announce the outcome of the audit at this stage, I can say that we intend to deploy the encouraging findings in further discussions with the Commission in coming weeks. This development has the potential to lead to a reduced disallowance.

I am confident that, by engaging in this audit, the Department has demonstrated the confidence to put its control system to the test and that this, combined with a further audit of legality and regularity planned for the 2012 scheme year, will provide further assurance to the Commission on the corrective actions that the Department has taken to improve controls.

With your permission, Mr Speaker, I now want to turn to the issue of maps. The Commission was critical of the fact that our mapping system did not identify a maximum eligible area, which is an assessment of the eligible land in a field that can be claimed for single farm payment. A key objective of the mapping project that I have undertaken is to identify this area for each field.

The Department is about to issue maps with revised field boundaries to farmers to support them in the 2013 single application process. The maps will be issued in three batches. Farmers in the south-east will be the first to receive their maps, which should arrive with them in December and January. That will be followed by the north and, finally, the south-west. The order of map production reflects the order in which the data was received from our data partners, Land and Property Services, given the significant work involved in having all the data available, and the desire to see maps provided as early as possible. The new maps will be much more detailed than the previous ones. Boundaries will have been moved to where physical features such as hedges, walls or fences are present. So, for example, if no boundary was visible, fields will have been merged.

Given that the information contained in the maps will also be used to prepopulate the 2013 single application form, it is essential that farmers look at their map early and report necessary changes to avoid potential delays in processing their claim. It is essential that farmers examine the information that we send to them and report any changes necessary, as they and they alone know the current situation on their land.

If farmers come to us late with changes that need to be made, it cannot be guaranteed that they will be included in time on a new map or used to populate their single application form. This, in turn, may delay the processing of their 2013 claim. I cannot stress enough how important it is that farmers follow the guidance that we issue with the maps. As well as the guidance, staff will be available in DARD Direct offices to assist. I know that many farmers find all the information that they receive very bureaucratic, but, if they ignore the advice that we send them and claim more than the maximum eligible area, they could end up with penalties in 2013.

12.15 pm

I am also investing in a new corporate geographical information system that will underpin the maps to ensure that we have a better platform on which to build future maps and to improve the information that we, as a Department, have for decision-making. One of the benefits for farmers of that investment should be better opportunities not just to look at their maps online but, in the future, to make changes to them and to send those changes directly to the Department for verification.

I am aware that many farmers and public representatives have an expectation that DARD’s maps will be 100% accurate when they are issued. That is a mistaken expectation. As I said before, that cannot be the case due to the changes that happen daily on land and because photographs may not show up every feature clearly. Maps will be correct only when farmers have checked them against what they know to be the current situation on their farm. Members should be under no illusion about the challenges involved in doing that work, and they should encourage co-operation from their constituents. It is only by working together that DARD and the farming community can make and keep the maps fit for purpose. Farmers who share parts of a single field with other farmers will have a particular problem to resolve, and they will need to contact their local office quickly to work out the best way forward.

One of the Commission's other criticisms was that we allowed dual-use claims; that is, different farmers might use the same field to claim under different schemes. That is most common when one farmer claims a field for a single farm payment and another for less-favoured area compensatory allowances. We have looked at ways to address the Commission's concerns by introducing a new set of controls that would be in keeping with its stance that a legitimate dual-use claim is technically possible but requires adequate controls. We launched a consultation exercise setting out our preferred approach for managing those dual-use claims in the short term. The consultation closed earlier this month, and, when the responses have been considered fully, I will decide on the best way forward.

Another issue that has arisen is the need to make sure that the controls applied to agrienvironment schemes are also improved. Disallowance was not restricted to the single farm payment but was applied to land-based schemes in the second pillar. It is therefore important that we ensure that the new maps are aligned with the schedules for the agrienvironment schemes. Work will commence on that as soon as the maps are available.

Members will be aware that I have decided not to proceed with a third tranche of the countryside management scheme agreements. In the light of the experience of that scheme, it is important that the Department prepares itself for the early introduction of a new scheme that is attractive to farmers while striking a balance between achieving real environmental outcomes and compliance. It is important for me to add that the Commission will look to see that we have a scheme in place that rewards farmers for being active on the land to achieve real outcomes for the environment.

I am determined to accelerate payment turnaround for farmers, but farmers themselves have a key role to play in that. One important way that I have already mentioned is to take care to claim correctly. Another is to make their single applications online. This year, over 8,000 applications were submitted online, which represents just over 21% of the total received for the 2012 scheme year. That is an increase of over 2,000 from the previous year. That is great progress, and I hope that it will continue because it can speed up payments to farmers overall. This year, because of the introduction of new maps, there may be some challenges for farmers who have to introduce new information to the single application form online to ensure that their claim is correct. However, despite that, I intend over coming years to continue to develop and promote online applications to facilitate more accurate and faster payments. When uptake is sufficient, it will be possible to move to a mandatory arrangement. However, I recognise that that may take time in the context of all the other ongoing changes.

I will announce the payment target for the 2012 single farm payment shortly. I know that many farmers depend on getting their single farm payment early. In line with previous years, I hope to be able to pay at least 80% of claims in December. It should be noted that there are five times as many inspection cases as there were last year.

I changed our systems to start land eligibility inspections for the 2012 applications four weeks earlier this year than in the 2011 scheme year. That provided a longer window of opportunity to complete inspections before payment processing commences, increasing the potential to make timely payments for inspection cases. However, it is important to manage expectations. The 2012 scheme year should be the final year that we have very large numbers of payments that require recalculation back to 2005. That cumbersome process remains for this year and will inevitably delay some payments. For example, when I sent farmers maps to inform their claims in 2012, the maps contained marked ineligible areas. A proportion of farmers claimed areas that appeared to include some of that ineligible area or claimed fields that had not been claimed for some years. So, it is necessary for us to carry out administrative checks on those to ensure that the Department protects the fund. That means that some non-inspection cases may take longer to process this year. In many cases, farmers wrote to explain why the claim was for more than the eligible area, but they did not in many other cases . These are the cases that are likely to take longest to complete and may run into the early months of 2013 before a payment can be made. That again illustrates the importance of engaging with farmers and making sure that there is a two-way process to ensure that the maps are correct.

That brings me to 2013, and it is important for me to say that 2013 is not going to be an easy year for either DARD or farmers. The new maps that we are issuing will have a significant impact on the 2013 single application process. We anticipate that around 70% of fields will have some change affecting their area. That will mean changes to the area for which the farmer can claim.

Because of the significant number of changes to fields, we will not be able to preprint the 2012 claim information on the single application form, as we usually do, and farmers will need to take great care when completing their 2013 claims to make sure that they get them right. We are actively looking at ways to minimise the impact that that will have on farmers, and we are also reviewing the advice that we give to farmers. I appreciate that sometimes that may be complicated, and I emphasise that, if farmers do not understand what they need to do, they need to ask for help from my Department, from agents, form fillers or the farming unions. The more accurate claims are when they are submitted, the fewer queries and problems arise, and that in turn should help speed up payment processing. I want to ensure that payment targets in 2013 are at least comparable to those for this year, but I need farmers' help to achieve that.

We have made many improvements to our processes, and they should help to reduce the risk of disallowance in future. However, in the short term, it inevitably means that farmers must be proactive in managing their claims as the regulations require.

I reiterate that, if ever there was a year for farmers to check their maps carefully, this is that year. Farmers and elected representatives should not assume that the maps are correct. There are likely to be many areas where changes can be identified only by the farmer. We need to work in partnership to ensure that the maps, which will form the baseline going forward, are correct and continue to be corrected. Farmers must be proactive and tell us about changes to their fields. In turn, DARD must have a more stable and secure mapping platform to help make the transition from the current scheme to those being developed under CAP reform. Many farmers have already worked with us to that end, and I am confident that, in partnership, we are close to success in tackling the current scale of disallowance that we have had to endure. I am confident that, because we have recognised and addressed the issues together, we will be able to show the Commission that we now have effective systems that are compliant with regulatory requirements.

I know that that was a lengthy statement, Mr Speaker, but it was important to get all the detail out.

Paul Frew (DUP, North Antrim)

I welcome the Minister's statement and update to the Assembly. I think that we will all agree that it is a wide-ranging statement, and I thank her for it. I welcome the improvements to the Department's processes that she outlined, and I am sure that she will agree that her Department can do much, much more in future.

The Minister mentioned that DEFRA had agreed to take the European auditors' decision on the 2007-08 financial year to the European courts. I understand from previous statements that other countries and paying agencies have had concerns similar to DARD's regarding the calculation of penalties. Will the Minister outline whether any other country or paying agency has challenged or is in the process of challenging the decision of the auditors in the courts? If so, what are the implications for the standing of the DARD cases?

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. As the Member will be aware, when we originally asked DEFRA to take the case, it would not do so. Therefore, I think that it is a positive development that we have been able to convince it to do so. It means that we have a twofold approach to the legal challenge. We are proceeding with the original application, but that is stuck on the issue of standing and whether we, as a devolved area, have the standing to take a case. Even if that fails, we have the second case coming behind it. It is very positive that we will have two cracks at it. If, out of all that, we are able to reduce the amounts by which we have been penalised to date, that is obviously what we are trying to do.

To date, the focus has always been on challenge. At the start of the process, when Europe first notified us of the potential fines, there was a lot of emphasis on challenge. However, we have now become much more focused on improving systems and compliance. There are three fundamental issues: challenge, compliance and communication. Obviously, you have to inform Europe of what you are doing along the way.

I referred to other countries facing disallowance at this time. I can provide the Member with more detail, but certainly other legal challenges are ongoing. We were at the start of the queue to be audited, so we are a bit further down the line than other member states. We were practically one of the first areas to be audited, which is maybe why we are further on. I am happy to provide the Member with more detail on the ins and outs of the other challenges.

Oliver McMullan (Sinn Féin, East Antrim)

Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. I thank the Minister for her comprehensive statement. How important is the introduction of the new maps? What impact will the payment process have on farmers in 2013?

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

The new maps will obviously help farmers to complete their claim more accurately, but, as I said consistently in the statement, there has to be a partnership approach. I really encourage farmers to proactively walk their fields to make sure that the maps are correct and to talk to DARD about that. I also really encourage farmers to follow the guidance issued with their application packs. If they ignore the changes, it may cause delays in their payments, and the whole system will be slowed up. So, we really encourage farmers to be proactive and to talk to DARD if they are in any doubt. There is no escaping the need for farmers to walk their fields, take their map with them and make sure that everything that should be on the map is on it and anything that should not be on it is not. There is the potential to speed up the whole process if farmers proactively engage with improving the maps.

Robin Swann (UUP, North Antrim)

I thank the Minister for her statement. Minister, I think that we are all in agreement that the Department's handling of disallowance and the fines has been a bit of an omnishambles since the very beginning. In your statement — I know that this is the third time this has come to the House before it has actually been presented — you said at point 31:

"Given that the information contained in the maps will also be used to pre-populate the 2013 single application form"

However, at point 45, you tell farmers to be diligent because:

"we will not be able to pre-print"

the forms. Will you clarify the difference between those two points? What is the exact guidance to farmers?

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

We will send out a whole new pack to farmers, which will include a new improved map and a table reflecting their fields. We have asked farmers to use that, as opposed to what they normally get, which is an application form with the information that they would seek to correct. This way, farmers will receive a map and a table, and the table can be used to assist them in completing the map. So, the maps will not be completed in the normal way, but that is just for next year until we get everything improved. Once the farmers respond, our maps will not be 100% right — we will never get to 100% — but we should get as close to that as possible. The Commission expects 99·5%, and that is the target we hope to reach.

Joe Byrne (Social Democratic and Labour Party, West Tyrone)

I thank the Minister for her timely statement. However, I am not so sure that its contents are very gratifying or appealing to farmers at the moment, given that about £50 million worth of fines have been indicated. Is the Minister confident that the Department's senior management are fit and competent to make sure that the situation is rectified and that the Commission's concerns about mapping and wrongful claims on some farm applications can be addressed? What can be done to reassure farmers that they will not be the fall guys in the system?

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

It is my role as Minister of Agriculture to represent farmers and protect their interests. That is very much to the fore of everything I am involved in.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing. First, I want to point out that the way Europe conducts its audits makes it difficult, because they come so many years after the fact. It was only in 2009 that DARD was informed of the actual amount that it was to be fined for the 2005-06 scheme year. So the way in which the audits are conducted makes it very difficult.

With hindsight, I think that a lot of focus was put on challenge and not enough on taking action more quickly to make some of the improvements that we are now involved in, such as the maps and the inspection process. Those were the two key issues that Europe highlighted as problem areas. As I say, at the start, a lot of the focus was on challenge. We now have challenge, compliance issues and ongoing communication with Brussels. Those are the three key areas that will be very important to us in the time ahead.

I assure the Member that this is a priority for me. We are actively working towards ending disallowance, and all the measures I outlined today have been welcomed by the Commission.

So, hopefully, we will be in a position to stamp out that disallowance and get into a better position.

Kieran McCarthy (Alliance, Strangford)

I thank the Minister for her statement. I declare an interest as a recipient of single farm payment. In relation to E-SAF, will the Minister advise the House whether, out of the 8,000 people who completed their application online, any have been returned? The whole idea of online is for a quick payment to the farmers. Have there been any errors, or have a number of them been returned to farmers for further information?

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

I do not have that type of detail in terms of the numbers that have been returned, but anything that is submitted online can have a quicker turnaround process. It is very quick if the farmer receives a map and is able to respond online to the Department. Things can be changed very quickly online on the system. By and large, we want to get to a position where we have a lot more farmers claiming online. I am very pleased that 2,000 more farmers claimed online this year. That in itself is very positive. As the Member will be aware, however, we have issues of large rural areas across the North not having access to broadband, or slow connection.

So, there are a number of issues that we need to challenge. I will not move to make claiming online mandatory at this moment in time because that would not be fair; there would be an equality issue there. I hope that we keep improving and continue to attract more farmers to do it this way, because that will speed up the entire process for not just that individual farmer. More people applying online will speed up the entire process, so we look forward to more of that.

William Irwin (DUP, Newry and Armagh)

I thank the Minister for her statement. She touched on the fact that 80% of single farm payments will be made again in December. I am sure that the Minister realises that that still leaves upwards of 8,000 farmers not receiving their payments in December. Will the Minister inform the House as to the situation with inspections this year, given the desperate situation last year in relation to late inspections? What way is the Department on with the inspection process?

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

I assure the Member that the target is 80% in December but, obviously, we always want to exceed our targets. We want to make sure that the largest number of farmers possible will receive their payments. One issue that the Commission identified was the whole area of inspections, and we are constantly working to try to improve that. We have a lot of training for our inspectors. We also this year, I am pleased to be able to say, started our inspections four weeks earlier, which really assists the whole process and speeds things up.

(Mr Principal Deputy Speaker [Mr Molloy] in the Chair)

As I said in the statement, this year five times more inspection cases will be paid out in December compared with last year. There are improvements; a lot more is still to be done. Ideally, you would love to be in a position where you could pay all farmers in December. We are constantly working our way towards that. I want to exceed the target of 80%. That is just the target that we set out, but I hope to be able to exceed that. As I said, there is certainly an improvement compared with last year's inspection cases.

Maurice (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

My question is not dissimilar from what Mr Irwin asked. It is in relation to:

"at least 80% of all claims in December".

Eighty per cent is not that high a target. You seem to be starting from a very low base. Surely, your target should be 95%-plus. Can you give the House any assurance that you will far outstretch the 80% and that it is merely a target that can be easily met?

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

We are constantly striving to make sure that we get the maximum amount of farmers paid in December. We have all those issues that I identified and spoke about in the statement. It is about improving the practice and what we are doing in speeding up the inspections. I want to see all inspections being taken forward by remote sensing because that will speed everything up and reduce the amount of time that inspectors have to spend out visiting farms. That is also something that farmers will welcome.

So, we will constantly be striving to make sure that we pay the maximum number of people. Under Commission rules, you cannot pay a penny of single farm payment until all inspection cases are completed. So, the target and priority for me is to make sure that we improve those inspection times, get them done quicker and in the most effective way, and then we pay the maximum number of people as a result of that.

Tom Elliott (UUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

I thank the Minister for that comprehensive statement. I also declare an interest as being a recipient of single farm payment. The Minister has indicated that not as much information will be on the single application form this year as in previous years. Will there be any flexibility from the Department if any forms come in with minor mistakes in them? As opposed to imposing a penalty on the farmers, will there be some flexibility to allow them to remedy those mistakes?

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

I encourage farmers to check their maps very quickly once they receive them. The longer they leave it, the more difficult it will be and the less likely it is that things can be changed in time for the 2013 payment. The first run of maps will be issued very shortly. We encourage people to check their maps immediately they receive them and then inform the Department. That will take away the potential for any errors. The sooner that they do that, the better. As I said, I take this opportunity to encourage farmers to check the maps as soon as possible.

Declan McAleer (Sinn Féin, West Tyrone)

Minister, I welcome the paragraph in your statement about the rolling out of modern technology for remote sensing. We heard in Committee some of the benefits of that from Wales and other parts of the world. Will the introduction of remote sensing mean that farmers will be able to avail themselves of advance payments?

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

As I said, under the EU rules, payments can be made only when all the administrative and land eligibility checks are completed. This year, as I said, field inspections have started earlier. The successful introduction of remote sensing is likely to contribute to a move towards advanced payments in the future. Because of CAP reform uncertainty at the moment and the ongoing work on the controls, it is too soon to say whether that might be possible. However, my first priority is to improve the number of farmers whom we can quickly pay in December. We should absolutely look towards advance payments in the future when we have all the systems correct and proper.

Seán Rogers (Social Democratic and Labour Party, South Down)

I thank the Minister for her statement. Her statement says that the new maps will have a significant impact on the 2013 applications. How much does the new mapping system cost? What extra steps are being put in by DARD to ensure that there is relevant support for farmers to make the whole process as smooth as possible?

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

In the Budget, £23·6 million was set aside for the whole remapping process. To date, we have spent just over £16 million of that. That has been a very worthwhile investment in improving the system and giving Europe the confidence that the paying agency is acting without any risk to the fund.

As for ongoing support and advice for farmers, DARD Direct offices have been very successful in reaching people. They do not all have to come to a central location; we have them right across the North. I encourage farmers who have any doubt on any issue, particularly around the new claim process and the new mapping system, to go to DARD Direct offices, seek advice or give us a call.

Danny Kinahan (UUP, South Antrim)

I thank the Minister for her statement. I declare an interest as a recipient of single farm payments. Is the Minister happy that dual claims can be managed in the new CAP system? Will she reply to my colleague's query about whether there will be some flexibility in the fining system this year?

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

As I informed the Member as part of the original statement, the dual claims process is a difficult one that we need to manage. We went out for consultation; that closed last week. I am looking through that very carefully to find a manageable solution for the way forward that does not present a risk to the fund, because, obviously, that is what Europe is very concerned about. I hope that we will be able to find a way forward. I encourage anybody who is in that situation and is worried about that to speak to an adviser. It is important that we get those issues ironed out as quickly as possible.

We are always very keen to work with farmers. I reiterate the point that we encourage farmers to make sure that they check the maps as soon as they receive them. They should not leave that to the last minute. For us to be able to successfully change things, make the payments more accurately and make them on time, we need to do that work as early as possible. We will continue to work with farmers. Nobody has any interest in trying to make life difficult for our farmers. The Department will always have that attitude.

Jim Allister (Traditional Unionist Voice, North Antrim)

Last November, the Minister told us that the running total of penalty at that stage was £80·6 million. Now that she has more information, including for 2009, can she tell us today what the running total of penalty for the Department's mismanagement is?

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

The figure has not changed. I told the House about those figures last year, and that same figure of £80·6 million has been accrued to date. That includes 2009. A lot of figures have been floated, but £80·6 million is the confirmed figure, and that takes us up into the 2009 financial year.

John Dallat (Social Democratic and Labour Party, East Londonderry)

I also thank the Minister for her statement. I am sure that, despite the comments that were made at the weekend, we would all agree that she is looking absolutely splendid today.

The Minister will agree that it is a long time since maps showed the world as being flat. It is even a long time since Lady Dixon Park was mapped in for a grant. Will she assure us that the money that is being spent on mapping will mean that this is the end of the story?

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

That is my priority and target. I am working towards ensuring that our maps are fit for purpose. I very much think that we can get there if we have the partnership approach and farmers work with the Department. We have improved the imagery and the type of aerial photography that we use in the maps, and all those things are improving the situation. We want fit-for-purpose maps for the future that are acceptable to the Commission. That will allow us to avoid potential disallowance.

Trevor Clarke (DUP, South Antrim)

Following on from the mismanagement that my colleague from North Antrim referred to, Minister, there is nearly an admission in the statement that the case your Department took, which was refused by DEFRA, will be lost. Do you believe that your Department was foolhardy in taking that case, and that that was a further mismanagement of funds?

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

If the Member is suggesting that we should just sit back, roll over and accept what Europe dictates to us —

Trevor Clarke (DUP, South Antrim)

You have.

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

The Member should let me answer the question. To date, we have had a very strong focus on challenging that issue with Europe. You cannot just accept it. We do not think that the fine that Europe has set out is proportionate to the risk to the fund. The Member may think that you should just accept it and do nothing, but I do not think that that is the approach we should take.

We took the case because the British Government, through DEFRA, would not take it on our behalf. We very strongly put our case and believe that we have good grounds to challenge what the Commission has set out. When it comes to standing — that is what the court is looking at at the moment — the problem is whether we, as a devolved Assembly, have the ability to take a case. Are we going to roll over and accept that, unless the British Government decide to take a case for us, we will not bother fighting it?

We need to challenge those decisions. We need to look at compliance and what we can do to improve the systems for our maps and inspections. However, we also have to continue to really strongly put our case that the fines are disproportionate and that they have to be challenged. Although it is a long process, I believe that we may have some success in the future.

David Ford (Alliance, South Antrim)

With your permission, Mr Principal Deputy Speaker, I wish to make a statement on the prison estate strategy.

The future of our prison estate is a key element of our wider prisons reform programme, through which we plan to deliver greater efficiency and effectiveness and improved public safety through the rehabilitation of prisoners and reductions in reoffending. Reflecting this, the Northern Ireland Prison Service (NIPS) launched a public consultation exercise on an outline estate strategy in June of this year. The outline strategy set out a range of proposals aimed at meeting our requirements in respect of each prisoner population group in order to create a prison estate that would support the rehabilitation of offenders.

The written consultation formally closed on 28 September. Since then, my officials have continued to engage with stakeholders on a range of issues relating to the future of the prison estate. Although some stakeholder engagement continues on a range of issues, I am now in a position to make an interim statement on the Prison Service outline estate strategy.

Throughout the consultation exercise, I have been impressed by the quality of engagement with stakeholders. A number of the issues that have been raised have been valuable and have helped to inform our thinking. I have previously made it clear that the estate strategy cannot be driven by a single issue. Rather, it needs to recognise and respond to the complex challenges presented by the prison population as a whole, as well as the specific elements of detaining and rehabilitating the differing groups within our prison population.

I am pleased to be able to update the House on a number of key decisions in respect of facilities for women, young offenders and adult males. I am confident that these developments will contribute to the rehabilitation of offenders and so to the creation of a safer Northern Ireland.

I am pleased that, as of 1 November, all juvenile offenders requiring custody are being accommodated at Woodlands Juvenile Justice Centre. That is an important development. It ensures that juvenile offenders are being accommodated in the most appropriate environment for them. It also delivers positive benefits for the prison estate and has opened up an opportunity to provide specific tailored regimes for young offenders at Hydebank Wood.

The prison review team (PRT) recommended that Hydebank Wood should be reconfigured around learning and skills training. I believe that that represents an opportunity for us to put in place a better and more supportive environment in which to equip young offenders for rehabilitation. Young offenders at Hydebank Wood present a particularly stark portrait of need. More than 50% of the population are below level 1 in numeracy skills; 35% are below level 1 in literacy skills; 30% are dyslexic; and 40% present with ADHD.

We know how important learning, skills and employability are to reducing the risk of young offenders reoffending on release, so we need to address better any issues around poor educational attainment and low skills in this offender group. Therefore, I confirm today our commitment to the reconfiguration of Hydebank Wood as a secure college that will offer a full programme of skills-based activities and support.

As a first step, I have asked my officials, with support from the Department for Employment and Learning, to bring forward a concept development paper on how that can best be achieved. The paper will include consideration of the associated changes that will be needed to the physical environment at Hydebank Wood.

However, the youth justice review and the prison review made clear that more needed to be done to provide effective support in the community as an alternative to, or after, custody. Although it recognised the provision that exists, the PRT suggested that the young offender population offers us an opportunity to work innovatively to provide support as well as appropriate alternatives to custody. My officials, therefore, are continuing to explore what additional support and services might be put in place to manage young offenders, including looking at community disposals and at whether it might be possible and beneficial to roll out an Inspire-style project to young adult offenders. Such a project would deliver a range of specific services in the community, aimed at reducing offending through targeted community-based interventions.

A relatively small number of women in Northern Ireland offend, but the impact on their families can be huge, particularly when a custodial sentence is given. The Department’s 2010 strategy to manage women offenders and those vulnerable to offending behaviour informed the development of the outline estate strategy. This acknowledges the complex challenges presented by the female prison population and emphasises that the prison estate needs to be considered in the wider context of other interventions and alternatives to custody for women offenders. The prison review recommended that the Inspire model should be the norm for dealing with women offenders. I fully endorse that approach, and work is already under way to roll out the Inspire model across Northern Ireland.

However, the review also pointed out that, for some women, secure custody will be the proportionate response, so the prison estate needs to be configured to ensure appropriate provision for that group of female offenders. I have previously made clear my view that the existing arrangements for women who are currently located with young offenders at Hydebank Wood are not appropriate, a view that is supported by stakeholders’ responses to the consultation. I am therefore confirming my commitment to the development of a new, separate secure custodial facility for women.

Over the coming months, we will consider options for how that can best be delivered in terms of location, shape and size, although my expectation is that the size of the female offender population requiring secure custody will be smaller than at present. The prison review report envisaged a small custodial facility located within a complex of buildings providing other services that could be accessed by all women offenders, whether in custody, under supervision or subject to court orders. That proposal highlights the need to ensure that work to develop a new secure facility for women prisoners is aligned with, and informed by, that being taken forward elsewhere across the criminal justice system for sentencing, alternatives to custody and effective pathways away from crime.

The outline estate strategy also identified a number of priorities for the development of the adult male estate. Alongside the aim of creating an environment that would encourage positive change by offenders, the strategy recognised that there was a priority need to respond to and address issues of overcrowding at Maghaberry prison. I am pleased to report that a new accommodation block, Quoile House, was opened at Maghaberry last month and is now providing accommodation for 160 prisoners. Good progress is also being made towards the development of a new 240-cell accommodation block at Maghaberry.

The outline estate strategy also set out proposals to zone Maghaberry prison into three areas, reflecting the recommendations of the prison review team. Following consultation, I have decided to proceed with the proposal to reconfigure Maghaberry into three mini-prisons — for remand prisoners, low- to medium-security prisoners and prisoners requiring high security — as suggested by the prison review team. Not only will this create operational efficiencies, it will allow NIPS to deliver better-tailored regimes to specific groups of prisoners in Maghaberry and help to underpin and reinforce work to rehabilitate offenders. On the basis of further consideration of this aspect of the proposals, however, it is no longer my view that Mourne House will be practicable for use as a high-security facility. Instead, my intention is to create a discrete high-security facility within the main prison at Maghaberry, which would include provision both for separated prisoners and prisoners from the integrated population requiring high security. Further thought is now being given to how Mourne House might best be used, including consideration of whether it might be reconfigured as a remand prison.

The prisons review observed that the closure of the prisoner assessment unit in April 2011 left an important gap in custodial provision. If we are to achieve effective rehabilitation and reduce the risk of reoffending, there is a need to manage the difficult transition between prison and community, particularly for prisoners who have received long sentences. In line with the review team’s report, I intend to redevelop the prisoner assessment unit located on the Crumlin Road as a working out unit for prisoners approaching the end of their sentence. This will allow prisoners to benefit from being located within the community and able to access employment opportunities, while providing appropriate support and supervision.

Finally, the outline estate strategy proposed, again in line with the prison review recommendations, that Magilligan prison be decommissioned from 2018 and a new prison built in a more central location. The review team rightly observed the challenges of providing prisoners accommodated in Magilligan with adequate employment and rehabilitation opportunities. I also accept the review team’s assessment that the prison’s remote location poses a significant challenge to maintaining effective family links, which is another key factor in helping to rehabilitate offenders.

I have stressed on a number of occasions that my decision on the future of Magilligan needs to be based primarily on what is best for the people of Northern Ireland in terms of enhancing public safety through reducing offending. I have also stressed that the consultation on the outline estate strategy was genuine and the question of Magilligan prison was at no point pre-determined.

Although I recognise and have been guided by the importance of the observations made by the prison review team, a number of other factors influenced my thinking. Sue McAllister took up post as director general of NIPS on 3 July and has brought fresh thinking and perspective. Prison Service officials have also continued their further consideration and exploration of the issue.

A number of responses to the consultation challenged earlier assumptions by emphasising Magilligan’s existing strengths and suggesting that more could be done to reinforce and build on these strengths. That was also reflected in the encouraging positive approach to partnership working shown by local councils and business representatives in the north-west.

Taking all of those factors into account, I am now of the opinion that a convincing case might be made for the retention of a prison in the north-west on the Magilligan site, and, of course, I would welcome the positive impact that this could have for Magilligan staff and the local economy. I want to stress that further work is needed before a definitive decision can be made, both to ensure that adequate rehabilitation opportunities can be identified and provided and to look creatively at how family links could be better facilitated and sustained to reduce barriers to the effective rehabilitation of prisoners.

I am now inclined towards retaining a prison on the Magilligan site, subject to evidence being provided that issues concerning rehabilitation and family links can be adequately addressed. Over the coming months, I believe that the focus for debate on the future of Magilligan needs to shift from whether it should be decommissioned to actively exploring whether and how we can make it work better to improve the rehabilitation of prisoners. I accept that some of these issues will take time to explore and consider, and I acknowledge that staff and local stakeholders have lived for some time with the impact of uncertainty, but it is important that we take the time to make the right decisions.

As I have previously said, the estate strategy presents us with an opportunity to do things better, to create an effective prison estate that will encourage and promote rehabilitation and help to reduce reoffending. Reflecting its importance for the strategic reform of our Prison Service, NIPS has appointed a director of estates, which is a new position, to provide leadership and momentum in taking it forward.

The next phase of work is critical, and I am committed to returning to the House in the new year to update Members on my final decisions on the development of the prison estate; the shape of the female estate and how that will interplay with community provision; provision for young offenders; and the adult male estate, including a definitive statement on the future of Magilligan prison.

Paul Givan (DUP, Lagan Valley)

I thank the Minister for his statement. I know that, for many, the headline story will be that Magilligan is to be retained. I think that we will need a definitive, final confirmation that that is the case, because for many years there has been uncertainty about Magilligan. At last, that will now hopefully be resolved. I commend my party colleagues who campaigned tirelessly for this in the north-west.

I will turn to some of the other areas. Will the Minister outline the capital resources that will be needed to make all the changes to the prison estate a reality? With the creation of three mini-prisons at Maghaberry to deal with remand, low-security and high-security prisoners, will the Minister assure the House that any changes to the high-security regime will not create a Maze-style prison, that prisoners in the separated regime will be treated exactly the same as other high-risk prisoners in the new high-security facility at Maghaberry and that no political status will be given to those republican prisoners?

Finally, will he assure us that appropriate governance arrangements will be in place for the prisoner assessment unit (PAU) so that we do not have a repeat of what happened previously?

David Ford (Alliance, South Antrim)

It is always good to be able to welcome a positive contribution and welcome for a statement from the Chair of my Committee. I agree with him that it was stressed that this was an interim statement and that there needs to be a definitive, final statement, particularly on the future of Magilligan.

He commended his party colleagues for their campaign on Magilligan, so I also commend those who have looked at the practical ways in which local councils and businesses in the north-west could support the rehabilitation process in Magilligan and justify its retention. To me, that is the key point that still needs to be worked through.

I cannot give any specific answer on capital resources because, clearly, a number of different factors are still being considered. Obviously, however, as we move forward to more definitive proposals for the different aspects of the statement that I made today, it will be possible to identify the necessary capital resources.

Given his speech to his party conference, I am not sure whether the Chairperson of the Committee really wants or will accept it, but I assure him that there is no movement towards the Maze, that prisons will continue to be run in line with best practice and that we are not talking about going back 30 or 40 years to conditions that existed in the Maze and in the management of separated prisoners in particular. Appropriate governance mechanisms will be in place for the PAU as, indeed, they will be for all the other institutions as we look to the future.

Raymond McCartney (Sinn Féin, Foyle)

Go raibh maith agat, a Phríomh-LeasCheann Comhairle, agus cuirim fáilte roimh an ráiteas seo. Thank you very much, a Phríomh-LeasCheann Comhairle, and I thank the Minister for his statement. Indeed, I will give a broad welcome to that statement.

In particular, a lot of the decisions seem to have been guided by Anne Owers's prison review team, which is to be welcomed. As we take this forward, I look forward to more detailed briefings being given to the Committee for Justice, where some of the issues can be teased out. Will he reassure us that whatever is done with the prison estate will be very much part of the wider, much-needed prison reform package?

David Ford (Alliance, South Antrim)

Again, I thank the Deputy Chair of the Committee for joining with the welcome that the Chair gave. He is absolutely right to say that the proposals that I put forward today have been very much guided by what Anne Owers and her team did on the prison review work. However, I have not slavishly followed them because, as I stressed earlier, certain issues have been re-examined.

I can give a commitment that, as we develop the detail of these proposals, if necessary, I and officials will be at the Committee to discuss them with members and to seek their opinions as we move forward. The Member correctly identified that there is a wider reform agenda. I think that it is fair to say that the estate strategy is about ensuring that we provide the services that rehabilitate people rather than being about the buildings in which they are provided.

Tom Elliott (UUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

I thank the Minister for his interim statement. I want to return to the issue of the Magilligan site. He indicated that a convincing case might be made for the retention of a prison in the north-west on that site.

Can the Minster elaborate on that, even in this interim period? Will that mean a newbuild on that site or a reconfiguration of the current prison structure?

David Ford (Alliance, South Antrim)

I thank Mr Elliott for that level of support. The only thing that I can say, as an interim statement, is that it is clear that, if Magilligan is to be retained, some of the accommodation will need to be replaced. The elderly H-blocks and some of the other buildings are not fit for purpose. On the other hand, the likes of Halward House, which is a relatively modern building, are fit for purpose. There will be an issue of rebuilding elements. Part of the question that may have to be taken into account is how much some of the supportive buildings — workshops, for example — need to be replaced with modern buildings at a time when we face capital spend issues related to young offenders, women and the needs of Maghaberry. It will be a difficult act for the Prison Service to live within its budget. There will certainly be a lesser capital requirement if we are to retain a prison at Magilligan than there would be if the entire prison were to be rebuilt elsewhere. It will be a considerable requirement nonetheless.

John Dallat (Social Democratic and Labour Party, East Londonderry)

I also thank the Minister for his statement and join the chorus of welcomes for the apparent retention of Magilligan prison. Does he agree with me that, at the end of the day, it is the inmates there who really matter? What immediate steps will the Minister take to ensure that the excellent educational work being done there is not only continued but stepped up in the interests of addressing the defects that he identified in literacy, numeracy, basic skills and so on?

David Ford (Alliance, South Antrim)

I also thank Mr Dallat for his welcome. The problems with literacy and numeracy relate more to young offenders in Hydebank Wood than to adults in Magilligan. There is no doubt from the recent inspection report from both CJINI and HMIP that Magilligan does good work despite the facilities. The important thing is that we continue to encourage that good work in all the prison institutions and do our best to improve the facilities to provide even better opportunities for the good work being done by staff.

Stewart Dickson (Alliance, East Antrim)

I thank the Minister for his statement. This has clearly been a genuine consultation process. I recently visited Magilligan prison and was impressed by the rehabilitation work being done both internally and externally. Can the Minister tell us that that work will continue to be supported and further enhanced by Prison Service staff? How will today's statement impact on the management of women prisoners?

David Ford (Alliance, South Antrim)

I thank my colleague for his welcome. A lot of good work is clearly being done on education, skills and job training in all the institutions. However, there is significantly more work to be done if we are to get the best rehabilitation opportunities for our prisoners.

It seems clear to me that Ash House on the Hydebank Wood site is not suitable for the accommodation of women prisoners among young offenders and that there is a general recognition that, in this society, too many women are in custody who do not require to be in custody, who should be dealt with by a community method and who, in many cases, have serious health issues, including mental health issues.

As has been said, the Inspire project and the community work that it does, both as a follow-up for those who have been in custody and as an alternative to putting people into custody, is an example of good, direct engagement with women offenders who need to be managed in a different way from male offenders. The Inspire project has shown its success by the very low recidivism rate and the constructive engagement of a range of NGOs, probation and others in the work being done at the project in central Belfast, building on the work being done at Ash House. I believe that it is possible for that work to be done in dedicated facilities — somewhere other than within the Hydebank Wood YOC boundary — in a way that improves opportunities for rehabilitation. Those of us who wish to see addressed our concerns about women in custody and the effects that that has on family life will surely welcome that.

Jim Wells (DUP, South Down)

Like other Members, I strongly welcome the decision to retain Magilligan. I was in east Londonderry recently, and the very clear message that I got was that there would be blood on the ceiling if anything happened to Magilligan.

I welcome the potential new construction project, which will give much-needed employment to builders in the area. Will there be the same level of employment in the new facility? One of the main reasons for the opposition to possible closure was the devastating impact that would have on the economy of the area. Will the newbuild have the same economic impact when it comes to employment?

David Ford (Alliance, South Antrim)

It is too early to say anything about expectations of the precise economic effects. Different figures have been given for the economic effects of closure. The opportunities for construction work should not be underestimated at this stage. There will be a significant benefit if we do any construction, as there could be from the construction work being done at Maghaberry and if we do some of the things we could do at Hydebank Wood.

Some of the points made about the economic effect were somewhat exaggerated. I am not sure that as much of the household spend of the staff at Magilligan took place in Limavady as was sometimes claimed by supporters of the prison. However, the important thing is to see the way in which local businesses and local statutory and voluntary bodies engage with the work at the prison to aid and support rehabilitation. That will have a continuing positive effect on the economy of the Limavady and Coleraine area, if the prison is to be retained.

Rosaleen McCorley (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

Go raibh maith agat, a Phríomh-LeasCheann Comhairle. Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as a ráiteas. I thank the Minister for his statement. The news about the new women's facility is welcome. Is there a timeline for it?

David Ford (Alliance, South Antrim)

I thank Ms McCorley for her welcome, but I am afraid that, at this stage in an interim statement, I cannot give any timeline. The only time indication I have given is the intention to return early in the new year with a definitive statement. There are issues around running a number of different projects together and around the total capital requirement, but Ash House in Hydebank Wood is not the proper place for women prisoners to be, and a new facility has to be regarded as a priority. With due respect to those who represent East Londonderry or East Derry, depending on the side of the House I hear from, it is a little bit sad that so much of the discussion on the estate strategy has concentrated on Magilligan rather than on the vital issue of how we manage women offenders better.

George Robinson (DUP, East Londonderry)

As someone who has campaigned vigorously with my DUP colleagues, I welcome the Minister's statement and emphasise how important the retention of Magilligan is, considering that it employs 400 to 500 people and provides millions of pounds to the north-west economy. Would follow-up meetings with Limavady, Coleraine and Ballymoney councils that included business representatives be useful? Every avenue could be explored, so that the retention of Magilligan prison, including the rebuild, which would benefit the construction industry, could be given the utmost priority.

David Ford (Alliance, South Antrim)

Again, I thank the Member for the welcome. My understanding is that there are discussions ongoing between council and business representatives. Those discussions could include Derry City Council as well as the three that I met: Limavady, Coleraine and Ballymoney. Those discussions with local councils and local businesses are a vital part of assessing the role that Magilligan can perform.

Jim Allister (Traditional Unionist Voice, North Antrim)

I note that it has been a weekend of movement of positions by some Alliance Party elected representatives. Although the direction of travel of one Alliance councillor may be a little dubious, I welcome the direction of travel of the Minister with respect to his move to retain Magilligan. I encourage him to keep going in that direction and commend the Prison Officers' Association, the local councils and others who campaigned so vigorously towards that end.

In the retention of Magilligan, can prison officers be assured that that which was removed from them, namely the officers' messes, will be restored so that they might have the facilities that they expect and should have in Magilligan prison?

David Ford (Alliance, South Antrim)

The discussion on the precise provision of messes is being considered by management, and I do not think that there is a benefit in going into any great detail.

I am slightly surprised that Mr Allister, in an uncharacteristically generous welcome for decisions, praised the councillors from the north-west and the POA but failed to include Department of Justice officials, who have been looking at the real detail and the real issues of how the prison estate can best be used to rehabilitate prisoners. It was a matter not simply of those who gathered signatures on a petition but of real, detailed work being done by my officials. If Mr Allister is not prepared to praise them, I would like to.

Maurice (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

I am sure that it is not lost on the Minister that, when he makes good and right decisions, the House unites around him. I am sure that he will set out to do that more often.

In relation to the future of Hydebank, the Minister said that there were very few women in prison and that it was his intention to provide new facilities, as he did not see custody as the way forward. He must have a very small unit in his mind. Can he give us some indication about when he sees that happening? Surely it can happen quite quickly.

David Ford (Alliance, South Antrim)

I assure Lord Morrow that I always do my best to ensure that I take the right decisions, but other people may not agree with me all the time.

On the specific issue of women prisoners, I highlighted the potential for developing an Inspire model, as I described it, to look at the issue of the small number of women who require to be in custody and the larger number who require a variety of services being managed in a new facility. In that sense, it is a matter not simply of talking about a small number of women in custody but of seeing how we best provide for the rehabilitation of women offenders. I cannot outline that immediately this morning, but it is under active consideration by my Department.

Alex Easton (DUP, North Down)

I thank the Minister for his statement on the estate strategy, especially the part about Magilligan, which is welcome news. I notice that the Minister did not mention Lisnevin in Millisle. Can he give us an update on that? Will the estate strategy lead to more jobs, or will there be job losses as a result?

David Ford (Alliance, South Antrim)

The estate strategy is not about jobs but about providing rehabilitation facilities. The issue of jobs and the changing configuration is being considered elsewhere. I was slightly surprised that Mr Easton chose to welcome the news that Magilligan was being kept, given that most of the correspondence that I have received from him in recent time has been demanding that we do not put any prisoners in Millisle. The plans for the college are quite clear. When the new integrated public services college goes ahead at Desertcreat, the Prison Service college will move as part of that, along with colleges from fire and police, and the site will then be surplus to requirements.

Sean Lynch (Sinn Féin, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

Go raibh maith agat, a Phríomh-LeasCheann Comhairle. Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as an ráiteas sin. I welcome the Minister's statement, particularly the part about developing Hydebank Wood as a secure college. Does he have a time frame for that to be up and running?

David Ford (Alliance, South Antrim)

It is a little bit disappointing that I have to rise on every occasion and thank the Member for asking the question but point out that, as this is merely an interim statement, I cannot give Members the timetables, details of cost or whatever they require. The best comment that I can make is that the issues will be discussed with the Committee as they develop, and I will be back to the House as early as possible in the new year with a detailed statement on that.

Chris Lyttle (Alliance, Belfast East)

I thank the Minister for his statement and welcome how he is driving forward prison reform, particularly in relation to young people and women. How important is skills training to rehabilitating young offenders, and how will he work with other Departments and community-based organisations to deliver improved outcomes on the issue?

David Ford (Alliance, South Antrim)

The issue of skills training, both education and skills more directly related to work, is a vital part of rehabilitating prisoners, particularly young offenders. I gave the statistics on the low level of educational attainment that so many of the residents of Hydebank Wood have, and it is clear that people who have such low levels of attainment will have significant difficulty finding jobs outside. That is why I am pleased that my officials are already engaging with those from DEL on developing the concept of a secure college. Indeed, a couple of weeks ago, I had a very positive meeting with representatives from Business in the Community, who were looking at the contribution that businesses could make to the rehabilitation of offenders. There was an inspiring visitor, James Timpson, the chief executive of Timpson, which does shoe bars, key cutting and so on in a number of places in different parts of the country. I believe that around 10% of the employees of Timpson are recruited directly from prisons. It has four units in prisons providing opportunities for people to develop work and skills that may lead to employment with Timpson or with someone else afterwards. It is a vital part of the work that needs to be done. I certainly appreciate the contribution being made by DEL, but, as I have been saying in the context of Magilligan as well as Hydebank Wood, the additional contribution that can be made by other stakeholders, including businesses and local councils, will be vital to the joined-up approach that my Department is keen to see.

Gregory Campbell (DUP, East Londonderry)

I join others in welcoming the Minister's statement. I remember that, five years ago, there were those who said to me that I could write the obituary column for Magilligan prison. They were wrong then, and the defeatists who, in the past few months, said that the prison would be lost, thankfully, seem to have been proven wrong now. We welcome the statement, and, thankfully, it is the right statement. The Minister gets criticised when he makes the wrongs ones, correctly, and he gets commended when he makes the right one. We commend him today. Can the Minister ensure that, when he comes back to the House in the new year, he will outline precisely the scale of the rebuild and the rehabilitation requirements that will be needed to make the new prison a success and, most important, the timeline to put to bed once and for all any notion that Magilligan prison will close?

David Ford (Alliance, South Antrim)

At least Mr Campbell was listening when I said that I could not give the detail today. It is certainly my hope that, by early in the new year, I will at least be able to give an outline of the points that he has raised. He is sitting beside the Finance Minister, and I am not sure whether I could necessarily give a firm commitment to spending even by January or February. I repeat the point that a large part of ensuring that we overcame the concept of what he described as defeatism about closure at Magilligan is that people brought forward serious and realistic suggestions on how the site, which is not necessarily in the ideal place, could be used to best effect rehabilitation, whether for those who live in the north-west or for those who have particular skills that may be used in a particular way if we develop the learning and skills agenda for Magilligan. A lot of work is still to be done, but I have no doubt from the remarks that he and others from the north-west have made that we will get such a positive community response that it will be easy to justify retention.

Cathal Ó hOisín (Sinn Féin, East Londonderry)

Go raibh maith agat, a Phríomh-LeasCheann Comhairle. Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as a ráiteas. I welcome the Minister's statement, which has removed a degree of the uncertainty around Magilligan. Indeed, it was that uncertainty that prompted many in the East Derry constituency to fear that we might have on our hands another Seagate or, indeed, Shackleton, until the recent announcement by the Minister of Agriculture and Rural Development. In the Minister's statement, he admitted that challenges exist. Can he expand on how family links could be better facilitated, given that this was central to the thoughts on whether or not Magilligan should be relocated?

David Ford (Alliance, South Antrim)

I appreciate the serious point that Mr Ó hOisín makes about family links. I do not think that anyone would seriously suggest that Magilligan Point is the best place in Northern Ireland for the bulk of the population to visit. That issue was raised by a number of commentators, and, indeed, Mr Campbell made the point at a public meeting in Limavady that there were prisoners who come from, however you define it, the north-west for whom Magilligan is as accessible as Maghaberry is. There are, indeed, prisoners who do not necessarily require family contact, and that may well mean that there will be opportunities for them at Magilligan. The issue is to see whether it is possible to get the necessary opportunities for rehabilitation for the prisoners who require it, using the facilities that exist in the community and business in that north-west area and to see how that can ensure that we promote rehabilitation in a way that, it was originally suggested, could best be done by locating all our facilities closer to the larger element of population but recognising that Northern Ireland does not stop as you pass Sprucefield. There are people who need to be accommodated in every part of the region.

Mervyn Storey (DUP, North Antrim)

I join the chorus of Members who welcome the positive nature of the statement in relation to the Magilligan site, albeit that some Members come late to the issue. On the day that we went to the prison and met prison officers, one party was absent, namely the party opposite. Sinn Féin decided that it was not worthwhile to go. Maybe its members had a particular issue about Her Majesty's prison.

Given the fact that we have this positive statement, huge emphasis has been placed on prisoners and their rehabilitation and education. Will the Minister give an assurance that the prison officers, who have been at the front line — I say this in the context of recent events and the murder of a prison officer — will be provided for in terms of their security in travelling to the prison and the way in which they are treated when they are working in it? That regime must change drastically, particularly with regard to Magilligan.

David Ford (Alliance, South Antrim)

I thank Mr Storey for those comments. I am not sure that we need to say that prison officers need to be treated particularly well with regard to Magilligan. I made statements over the last couple of weeks about the work being done to ensure that the security of prison officers was provided for, and I entirely agree with Mr Storey on the vital necessity of that.

I also recognise that there are difficult issues around the way in which prison officers work. Those have been addressed constructively by the management of the Prison Service and the POA and have been seen in changes in the operating model. Clearly, much work has been done, and much more needs to be done. We have seen that a number of those who served in the Prison Service for a long time have already availed themselves of the voluntary early redundancy scheme. New recruits are coming through the college at present. So, there is a great deal of change. However, I am determined that we continue to work constructively with our workforce and ensure that they are provided with the best possible security in any way that can be done.

Sammy Wilson (DUP, East Antrim)

I would like to make a statement outlining my plans to build on the rates package that I introduced in April of this year. I trust that, since this is a statement that is laden with good news, those in the press who report on the Assembly will take the opportunity to spread some early Christmas festive joy around people in the economy of Northern Ireland.

The new measures are mainly about extending and improving the support provided to businesses in Northern Ireland through the rates system. At the outset, however, allow me to reiterate a point that I have made on several occasions since I took over responsibility for rating policy: every £1 that we allow in relief is £1 less to spend on health, education, roads and council services. So, when we make these decisions, we are making a choice and, despite the fact that some people argue that the Assembly does not do so, we are prioritising the building of the economy at micro level, as far as small businesses are concerned. Another point I want to make is that the erosion of the rates system will not save the economy. However, I believe that, where it is sensible, we should direct reliefs to where they are most needed. That can help to create the right conditions for business success when it is combined with other initiatives. I hope that Members recognise, therefore, in considering the points in the statement, that the Executive are not passive in their attitude to business but are prepared to do something about it. It will never be enough in many people’s eyes, but we are prepared to take steps that usually go well beyond what is available in the rest of the United Kingdom.

I will remind Members of what we did earlier this year. April saw the introduction of the large retail levy, which, on average, equalled 15% of the rates bills of the largest retailers. That helped to fund the enhancement of the small business rate relief scheme. That enhancement brought 8,300 extra ratepayers into the scheme, which provided them with a 20% reduction in their rates. It also saw the introduction of an empty shops rates concession, which allowed a 50% exemption for the first year for a new business moving into a long-term unoccupied property. April also saw the continuance of the Executive’s freeze of non-domestic regional rates in real terms.

The statement highlights a range of measures that I aim to implement for next April that will supplement and complement that package. I will outline those in more detail in a moment. Briefly, the package will see the retention of the empty shops rates concession for the Budget period; a further expansion of the small business rate relief scheme; the extension of the rural ATM exemption for the remainder of the Budget period; a continuance of the non-domestic regional rates freeze agreed in the Budget settlement; and an extension of aspects of the developer exclusion as it applies to the rating of empty homes.

I start with the extension of the empty shops rates concession. We are all aware of shop closures and the effect that that then has on the vitality of towns and cities. I have seen that in my constituency and in towns and cities that I visit in my ministerial role. For that reason, I have decided to put forward proposals to the Assembly on the continuation of the empty shops rates concession for the remainder of the Budget period. That will allow Land and Property Services (LPS) to continue to receive applications for the scheme up to 31 March 2015. I have already written to ministerial colleagues on the matter to allow the measure to be implemented swiftly, and, as expected, I have received no views to the contrary. The scheme is very good, and so far it has seen 52 new businesses get up and running across the Province. I have visited a range of businesses availing themselves of the scheme, including a fish market in Enniskillen, a children’s shop in Larne, a gift shop in Londonderry, a retro scooter shop in Carrickfergus and, indeed, just this morning, a restaurant in Belfast that has seen the creation of 28 jobs.

The policy makes a real difference to new business and, importantly, is a sensible cost measure because the Executive would not have got any money in from those units through rates if they had continued to be empty. It is, effectively, cost-neutral. There is no evidence of displacement, and it is entirely sensible to continue with it to help to reduce the number of empty units on our high streets. I am not alone in that assessment: Scotland has already announced that it is replicating our policy from next April. It is nice to be copied by the Scots. As Members may already be aware, shortly after I announced the policy last year, it featured in the final recommendations of the Mary Portas report on high streets. I hope that Members across the Chamber will support the measure when the statutory rule comes up for debate in the new year.

As I recently announced in the Assembly, the Executive have agreed to extend the small business rate relief scheme to include properties with a net annual value (NAV) of up to £15,000, rising from the previous figure of £10,000. That extension is part of the jobs and economy initiative and will provide much-needed support to an additional 3,500 business ratepayers. It builds on the enhancement already planned in the in-year review. The 20% rate relief will automatically be awarded to all eligible small business ratepayers with a net annual value of £5,001 to £15,000. However, ratepayers who occupy multiple premises that are more than three properties in total will not be eligible for relief under the scheme.

Another measure that I wish to take to ensure that we target assistance is to remove entitlement to double relief and, instead, recycle the savings into raising the valuation thresholds. That will maximise the number of businesses that get support of one kind or another. Since the small business rate relief scheme was introduced a couple of years ago, some ratepayers had the good fortune to benefit from 70% or 80% derating and also got small business rate relief.

I want to redistribute this support and bring more people who get no form of support within the reach of the small business rate relief. This would apply to ratepayers already entitled to derating for industrial or sporting and recreational use. The newly expanded scheme will last for a further two years, from April 2013 through to 31 March 2015.

I know that the relief is not a panacea, but it is one of the measures that the Executive are using to try to help businesses in these difficult times. We listened to what businesses and business organisations had to say. I fully accept that rates form a larger proportion of small businesses' profits or turnover than is the case for larger businesses. Therefore a 20% reduction in this important overhead will make a difference during these difficult economic times.

Over the next two years, under the proposed newly expanded scheme, eligible ratepayers will benefit from a reduction of, on average, £1,600 and it could be as much as around £3,000. Around £36 million will be awarded over the next two years to all eligible ratepayers, of which £26 million will be awarded to those currently eligible and £10 million to those who will be brought in under the extended scheme. Some £12·8 million has been awarded so far in the current year.

As stated, I am already taking steps to continue support for rural ATMs for the remainder of the Budget period. The findings from the most recent evaluation of the policy are that the most isolated rural areas continue to benefit from the scheme, with the location of 12 new ATMs in the three most rural wards since 2010. Research shows that cash withdrawn in rural areas is usually spent locally, so the scheme has its part to play in sustaining services in rural communities.

During the 2009 evaluation process, consultation with the banks revealed that the exemption was not necessarily a consideration when selecting a location for a new ATM, but they said that it influenced their decision to keep an existing ATM in a rural area. I am of the view that retaining ATMs in those areas remains an important issue in helping to ensure the financial inclusion of rural communities, especially given the loss of other financial services in rural areas in recent years, such as bank branch and post office closures, etc.

I move now to regional rates. It is well known already to Members that people in Northern Ireland enjoy the lowest household taxes in the whole of the United Kingdom. The Executive have pursued policies aimed at keeping more of people’s money in their pockets. What is not always fully appreciated, however, is how competitive our business rates are compared with those in England, Scotland and Wales. A major factor in this is that the regional rate is being held constant in real terms throughout the Budget period.

As part of the overall four-year Budget, the Executive have agreed that rates should be held at the rate of inflation through to the 2014-15 rating year, providing certainty and stability for ratepayers in their financial planning. This means a planned increase of 2·7% in the regional rate for business ratepayers for the 2013-14 rating year, which is a continued freeze in real terms. That is lower than it would have been had we used the retail price index or the consumer price index as the measure of inflation. That builds on the regional rate freeze over a period of five years. It keeps rates as low as possible and means that, unlike anywhere else in the United Kingdom, business rates in Northern Ireland will have been frozen, in real terms, for eight straight years. We have adopted the lowest inflationary index, which is the GDP deflator.

In addition, the Executive, of course, continue to hold manufacturing rates at 30%, which helps around 4,300 manufacturing businesses with about £60 million in relief this year alone. That economic support is unique to Northern Ireland.

We have also retained empty property relief at 50%. That relief was removed in England and Wales, and I understand that Scotland is heading in the same direction. I feel that our policy is the right one, as borne out by my Department’s evaluation in that area, particularly given the growing number of empty shops. Of course, freezing domestic rates, in real terms, and deferring water charges have bolstered spending power. That is in marked contrast to the year before devolution, when there was a 19% increase in the domestic regional rate, the absence of a cap on domestic rate bills and looming water bills.

I do not think that we can emphasise enough, or keep emphasising enough, that those decisions have saved households hundreds, if not thousands, of pounds in the process. Of course, as I pointed out, that has been at a cost to public expenditure. However, I believe that the money has been of real benefit to the retail sector and has helped people in difficult economic circumstances.

I would like to touch on the non-domestic revaluation in 2015. As Members will be aware, the Executive have already agreed to LPS starting work immediately on the general revaluation of 72,000 non-domestic properties in Northern Ireland. From April 2015, that will redistribute the rating burden based on more up-to-date valuations. Unfortunately, that process cannot be rushed or brought forward more quickly. However, it will mean that sectors and trading locations that have not fared as well since the previous revaluation in 2003 will pay less and that those that have fared better will pay more, even if rental values overall have gone down. Just because a property has halved in value over recent years, that does not mean that rates bills will halve. When rental prices doubled, in some instances it did not result in a doubling of rates bills.

Members will be aware that, earlier this month, the UK Government announced that the non-domestic revaluation in England, which was originally planned for 2015, has now been postponed until 2017. However, the circumstances in England are markedly different from those in Northern Ireland in that they have completed two full revaluations since we last did ours, in 2003. Charging businesses a local tax that is based on old rental values is not fair, even though, as I said, some bills will go up and some will go down after the job is done in 2015. So, the exercise will go ahead in Northern Ireland.

As a final point, I would like to touch on a policy that affects domestic properties but that has ramifications for business and, in particular, the construction sector. That relates to the accumulated stock of new houses, which means those that were planned and built in better economic times. There are over 5,000 of those. Spec builders were granted an initial exemption of 18 months when the rating of empty homes was introduced in October 2011. That exemption is due to run out. I think that we need to extend it further, given the state of the market and the fact that it has not picked up significantly.

Over the coming weeks and months, I will be presenting new regulations to the Assembly to give effect to those various enhancements, extensions and improvements. I trust that I can rely on Members to support them, alongside the Finance and Personnel Committee, which deserves much credit for the work that it does by informing and scrutinising my Department's work in making the rating system more responsive to the needs of business. Let us not forget that devolution has allowed us to do that and to do things differently in Northern Ireland. For that reason, I commend the statement to the Assembly.

Daithí McKay (Sinn Féin, North Antrim)

Go raibh maith agat, a Phríomh-LeasCheann Comhairle. I thank the Minister for his statement. I am nearly tempted to ask why he was in the retro scooter shop in Carrickfergus and whether he made any purchases, but however.

I particularly welcome the extension of the empty shops rates concession. That is very positive for town centres. What is the Department doing to highlight that and to ensure that more businesses, particularly more new businesses, avail themselves of that?

Sammy Wilson (DUP, East Antrim)

I thank the Chairman for his question. I did not buy a retro scooter. At the risk of annoying all the mods as well as the other people who I annoyed this weekend, let me say that I want a real bike. Now I have annoyed more of the population of Northern Ireland, but so what.

The Chairman asked an important question. I believe that the empty properties policy is very important to setting up new businesses and revitalising those properties. Very often, that increases the footfall in particular parts of towns. We have done a number of things. First, I have mentioned the policy on every possible occasion here in the Assembly. Secondly, I have now been to about nine locations across Northern Ireland and visited premises and got local papers to report on that to try to highlight its benefits and, indeed, to show that businesses have benefited from it. A lot of the owners have been very complimentary and indicated that it was part of what influenced them to take on the business. Thirdly, we have worked with the Northern Ireland Independent Retail Trade Association and other business organisations and chambers of trade to try to get them to publicise and sell the benefits of the scheme to their members.

Therefore, we have done a range of things. Although it has been in place only for a short time, there is already an uptake, but we wanted to capitalise on that. For that reason, we have decided to extend support for another two years. As people see the successes, I believe that the groundswell will build.

Paul Girvan (DUP, South Antrim)

I thank the Minister for his statement. There are many good points in it. The large-stores levy was brought in during this current financial year, and it was used to increase the rate levy support from £5,000 to £10,000. How are we going to fund the increase in rate relief to include small businesses with a net annual value of up to £15,000, as proposed in the statement?

Sammy Wilson (DUP, East Antrim)

We are going to do it in two ways. First, the Executive have already made a commitment that, under the jobs and economy initiative, moneys that we had from Barnett consequentials, from departmental savings, from reprofiling spending, and so on, will go into a range of measures, and one of those measures is the extension of the small business rate relief scheme. The other way is taking those double reliefs from sports clubs and manufacturing businesses, which were getting relief on top of the relief that they were already receiving. That will release some money, which we have then been able to put into the extension of the scheme. As I said in the statement, the whole purpose is to try to encompass as many businesses as we can in the various relief schemes that we have, and we are succeeding in doing that.

Leslie Cree (UUP, North Down)

I thank the Minister for his timely statement. My question follows on from Mr Girvan's. Is the whole package really cost-neutral — if I can use that term — to the Executive? Do any moneys need to be added to it to fund the scheme?

Sammy Wilson (DUP, East Antrim)

The whole package is not cost-neutral. The part that I indicated was cost-neutral was the 50% rates relief on empty shops that had been vacant for more than a year. We were not going to get any rates from those shops if they did not come back into use, so, by deferring the rates for one year, we are not losing any money. In fact, in the longer run, if the business survives for more than one year, it becomes a cost-benefit to the Executive, because we get the rates in the second, third and fourth year, and so on, if the business succeeds. To a certain extent, therefore, it is a bit of an investment. It is not really costing us any money in the first year, but it gets us money later on.

Part of the extension of the small business rate relief scheme is cost-neutral, in so far as we are moving funds from those who are getting double relief to those to whom we are now giving relief for the first time. However, there is an ongoing cost to the Executive, and I have made it quite clear that the economy and jobs initiative, which will fund part of this, has involved taking money from Barnett consequentials, which could have been used elsewhere, or taking money from departmental savings, which could have been used elsewhere, or reprofiling spending, which could have been used elsewhere, and putting it into small business rate relief, so that element is not cost-neutral. There is a cost, even if it is only the opportunity, which is foregone, to spend the money in some different direction.

Kieran McCarthy (Alliance, Strangford)

I thank the Minister for his statement. He has quite rightly indicated that using rates relief can do only so much. What, if any, other measures are available to the Executive and the Minister to address small businesses? In particular, what steps are being taken to address the burden of regulation that many small businesses face at this time?

Sammy Wilson (DUP, East Antrim)

Rates are the responsibility of my Department. We can look at what has been done across the Executive, whether it be in town-centre regeneration and the money that has been spent on town-centre infrastructure, or individual grants that are available to small businesses through the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Investment, for example, such as the voucher scheme, which is now available and offers small amounts of money to businesses that are setting up and need consultancy or whatever. There are other reliefs such as that. Arlene Foster has also got the small business loan scheme, and the Department for Learning and Employment provides training grants for small businesses. Indeed, some small businesses that I have visited have actually availed of that training help and are looking at how they can avail of further help.

Departments are therefore doing a whole range of things, all of which are important micro-economic interventions to help businesses that tend to be fairly labour-intensive anyway; that tends to be locally based and, therefore, have a commitment to the area; and tend to keep money in Northern Ireland. For that reason, we should not underplay the importance of the Executive's interventions in promoting small business at a difficult time.

Peter Weir (DUP, North Down)

I join other Members in thanking the Minister for his statement. I welcome the initiatives that he mentioned in it.

With regard to the removal of entitlement to double relief and the fact that that will free up resources, which can then be re-targeted at helping small businesses, is the Department, at this stage, in a position to estimate the value of resources that can be freed up as a result of the removal of the double relief?

Sammy Wilson (DUP, East Antrim)

At present, I cannot give the Member a figure for the total amount of money that will be freed up as a result of the removal of double relief. However, I will explain the impact that it is likely to have on some businesses. Around 2,700 businesses will be affected by this. The average amount will move from £164 for some smaller clubs to £1,688 for some larger manufacturing firms. I should have the total figure. I am sure that it is somewhere in this big black book of answers. However, I cannot turn it up at the minute. If the Member wishes to have that information, I will write to him with it.

Seán Rogers (Social Democratic and Labour Party, South Down)

I thank the Minister for his statement. He talked about promoting new businesses, and so on, and the rate relief for one year. Has he any plans to phase in some rate relief in the second and third years as well? For businesses to bed in, they need rate relief for more than one year.

Sammy Wilson (DUP, East Antrim)

No: I have not done so, and I will tell the Member why I have not done so. It has been as a result of consultation that the Department has had with business organisations. The Member makes a good point. Indeed, some businesses that received the relief for one year raised that point with me. However, the difficulty is this: we do not want to distort the market whereby we give one business an advantage over another and simply displace an existing business that does not have the benefit of the 50% rate relief with one that does. We restricted relief to one year to avoid that happening to small businesses.

The Member is quite right: start-up costs are usually one impediment to a new business. We felt that a year was the correct time by which to extend relief in order to give new businesses the start that they need without, in the longer run, giving them an advantage over competitors that are already established in the market. It came through very clearly in the consultation from, for example, chambers of commerce and, even, some small-business organisations, that although they wanted to see help being given, they did not want to see it being applied in a way that was unfair to their existing members.

Adrian McQuillan (DUP, East Londonderry)

I welcome the Minister's statement, especially his announcement that rural areas will benefit from 12 new ATMs. Will he assure the House that this policy will continue?

Sammy Wilson (DUP, East Antrim)

The fact is that the policy is being extended and will stay in place until the end of the current Budget period. Obviously, I cannot make judgements about decisions that will be made by the Assembly or a new Minister after the current Budget period, or anything like that. However, I can give that assurance for the rest of the current Budget period. One of the reasons was, as I said, that we want to see the financial inclusion of people who live in remote rural areas. Also, the survey showed that 70% of the money that was taken out of rural ATMs was spent locally; very often, if it was in a garage or whatever, it was spent in the garage where it was taken out. So it is a way of sustaining other local services, and that is one of the reasons why we thought that it was quite important.

Maurice (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

This is a good news story all right. I welcome it, as I suspect that the rest of the House does. I see a plea in it from the Minister that, when the statutory rules come up for debate in the new year, we will not see the irresponsibility from the two parties opposite that we have had recently. That will depend on them having a change of heart.

Minister, you tell us that this is effectively a freeze on rates for some eight years. Do you not feel that councils could be doing much more around rates? For example, Dungannon and South Tyrone Borough Council has had no rate increase for the past three years. Do you not think that councils could play a greater part in driving this scheme forward?

Sammy Wilson (DUP, East Antrim)

I have absolutely no doubt that Dungannon council has been greatly influenced by the wisdom of the Member who asked the question. Of course he is right; there is no point in us freezing the regional rate if councils simply use that as an excuse to raise revenue by putting rates up by more than the level of inflation. While there are still some exceptions, councils now seem to understand that it is not in their interests to increase rates by more than the rate of inflation.

The Member made the point, and a number of councils — I will not name them, but I will do so some day — have criticised the Executive for not doing enough for small businesses in their areas. When I examine their district rate increases, I find that, although we have frozen our rates, they have put them up, sometimes by multiples of inflation. One of these days, I will lose patience with them and will name and shame them. I hope that the threat of naming and shaming will force councils to look at the rate increases that they impose every year to make sure that they are kept in line with the rate that we set.

Jim Allister (Traditional Unionist Voice, North Antrim)

I am sure that we are all concerned about the fate of businesses in our constituencies. Indeed, in Ballymena town, in the past year, we have seen a staggering 10% increase in the number of empty business premises, to now just under 500 in the borough. The Minister intends to extend the empty shops rates concession. What measures will there be to ensure that there simply is not relocation by those currently benefiting for one year from taking up an empty shop? In order to make the scheme more attractive and more impactful in our country towns, will the Minister agree that it is time to look again at the possibility of extending it to empty offices as well, so as to provide a greater ambit to try to challenge the spiralling direction in which towns such as Ballymena have been moving?

Sammy Wilson (DUP, East Antrim)

First, the measure that we have taken today and the announcement that it will still remain for only one year is our attempt to do exactly what the Member suggests. I do not want to find that people simply move from one premises to another to get the benefit of the scheme. I suppose that this relates to the question asked by Mr Rogers. There will be capital costs in moving from one premises to another, and those capital costs are less likely to be covered entirely if the rate exemption lasts for only one year than if it were an indefinite exemption or one lasting three or four years. I think that, by limiting it to one year, you cut down the likelihood of people moving from one place to another.

As far as the office issue is concerned, of course some offices are included. Offices where the general public have face-to-face interaction with the people who work there, selling or providing services, are covered. We took the view at the time that if we covered offices generally, there would be a greater chance of displacement, so we decided not to go down that route.

Dominic Bradley (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Newry and Armagh)

Go raibh maith agat, a Phríomh-LeasCheann Comhairle. Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as ucht a ráitis. Tá ceist agam air. I thank the Minister for his statement. He will remember that the Committee agreed to his proposal to proceed with non-domestic revaluation in 2015 despite the decision to postpone that elsewhere. Is it the Minister's view that rebalancing the rating burden, based on more up-to-date values, will readjust that burden and negate the need for measures in the future, such as the ones he outlined here today?

Sammy Wilson (DUP, East Antrim)

Let us be quite clear about this: all the relief measures that we have talked about today will expire at the end of this Budget period, as is required by the legislation. If the next Assembly decides to renew any of those measures, it will have to start again from scratch.

When we introduced the regulations a year and a half ago, I explained that we believed the measures were necessary — this was only part of the reason — to deal with the disparity that has arisen due to different trading patterns since the last revaluation took place in 2003. So, the revaluation itself should help to even out some of those disparities. I do not know whether it will even out all of them, and I do not want to make an assumption about the outcome. We introduced the measures to at least reflect some of the changes over the intervening period that gave an unfair advantage to some businesses and penalised others. By and large, it was an out-of-town/town centre and large business/small business disparity.

Once we have seen the outcome of the revaluation, the Executive, or the next Executive during the next Assembly mandate, will, of course, want to look at whether all the issues have been addressed. However, I believe that most of the issues should be addressed in the revaluation exercise. That is one of the reasons why we decided to go ahead with the 2015 exercise, although that has been delayed in England and Wales and there may have been an argument for saying, "Let us keep in line and in step, so that we have revaluations at the same time right across the United Kingdom".

Megan Fearon (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

Go raibh maith agat, a Phríomh-LeasCheann Comhairle. I particularly welcome the rural aspect of the scheme. Are all those rural ATMs external so that they can be accessed 24 hours a day? Are there any incentives for shops and other organisations to externalise their ATMs?

Sammy Wilson (DUP, East Antrim)

They are all stand-alone ATMs. Incentives will really depend on whether businesses and banks believe there is a demand locally. All we can do is ensure that there is no cost disadvantage in doing so. One of the reasons we have kept the relief, which, as I say, is worth over £2,000, is that we want to keep ATMs in those areas. However, as I pointed out in the statement, banks have made it quite clear that that is not a big factor for them in deciding whether to put new ATMs in certain areas. There will be other factors, and I suppose it really depends on their assessment of the kind of usage and the feedback they get about potential usage from local communities.

Francie Molloy (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

The Minister of Finance and Personnel wishes to make another statement, copies of which are in the Foyer for anyone who does not have one at this point in time.

Sammy Wilson (DUP, East Antrim)

I do not know that this statement provides the good news that the last one did. Nevertheless, I believe that it is a very necessary statement to inform the House of an Executive decision last Thursday, which, I believe, will have fairly massive implications for Northern Ireland.

As part of their programme of pension reform, the coalition Government are introducing major changes to the public service pension schemes from April 2015. I want to update Members on the position in Northern Ireland and how the matter will be dealt with now.

The background is that proposals for reform of the UK public pension schemes were recommended in the final report of the Independent Public Service Pensions Commission on public service pension provision in the United Kingdom, which was published on 10 March 2011. Lord Hutton recommended that final salary pension arrangements in the public sector were unsustainable and recommended their replacement with alternative models that shared the cost of pension provision more equitably between public service employees and the taxpayer whilst continuing to protect the accrued pension rights of current employees — a conclusion that most of us in the Assembly must endorse. Given the simple fact that we all live longer, we have to examine how to pay for that and who pays for it. We must get the balance right between employer and employee in dealing with our finite resources and the status quo that has existed for years in areas such as pensions. We do not have infinite financial resources, and I, as Finance Minister, have made that clear to the Assembly on more than one occasion.

(Mr Speaker in the Chair)

The Executive recognised that change had to happen in Northern Ireland. As a result, the Executive decided, way back on 8 March this year, to adopt these pension reform proposals for Northern Ireland and, in particular — this is important — to commit to the policy for a career average revalued earnings pension scheme with pension age linked to the state pension age being adopted for general use in Northern Ireland public service pension schemes and to adopt that approach consistently for each of the different public service pension schemes in line with their equivalent scheme in Great Britain and not to adopt a different approach for Northern Ireland. That is an important decision, and I hope that Members will realise its significance as I go through the rest of the statement.

I sought immediately to persuade my Executive colleagues the very next month, April of this year, that my preferred option — indeed, the most sensible option — would be to table a legislative consent motion in the Assembly. That would allow the necessary legislative provisions for the reform of public sector pensions in Northern Ireland to be taken forward in the Westminster Public Service Pensions Bill. The alternative option would be to introduce our own public service pensions Bill in the Assembly, but that could only be done once the Westminster Bill had completed its passage in Parliament and the final content was known.

I wanted to use the legislative consent motion for two key reasons: first, because it made sense, in that our policy on pensions was to keep parity with Great Britain, and, secondly and more importantly, because of the financial consequence of any slippage from the April 2015 deadline set by HM Treasury. The costs of delay, as I have already explained and highlighted in this House, are estimated to be in the region of £262 million a year. The only sure way to meet the deadline and avoid that would have been to use a legislative consent motion. I consistently made it clear to Executive colleagues that, if we did not use a legislative consent motion, we simply would not have our primary legislation, secondary legislation and system changes made in time to meet the HM Treasury deadline of April 2015 for the implementation of the required pension reforms in most schemes. Local government pension schemes will be reformed from April 2014.

I am very disappointed to announce that the Executive failed to agree to my recommendation for a legislative consent motion in this instance. Therefore, the Executive have effectively determined the legislative route to be undertaken to implement these reforms. In order to implement the binding decision of 8 March 2012, a public service pensions Bill for Northern Ireland will need to be introduced in the Northern Ireland Assembly, subject to Executive approval, and then to make its way through the Assembly process. That required process cannot commence until HM Treasury's Public Service Pensions Bill has completed its passage through Westminster. That is expected to be May 2013, when the final content will be known. Officials have estimated that a Northern Ireland public service pensions Bill may not receive Royal Assent until as late as January 2015. Every effort will be made to advance the legislative process when possible, but I point out that, in my view, we have potentially squandered our limited resources on an unnecessary process. We need to use those resources wisely in the current economic times.

Following Royal Assent to the proposed Northern Ireland Bill, secondary legislation will be required to amend the rules of each of the individual public service pension schemes in Northern Ireland. That may take up to an additional 10 months, which will result in an implementation date for the reforms of late 2015. The failure to agree to use a legislative consent motion means simply that we will not have our primary legislation, secondary legislation and systems changes in place by 2015. The introduction of our own Bill will merely take us to the position that we agreed in March but with a much longer timescale and a significant cost impact.

In introducing our Northern Ireland public service pensions Bill, I have given full account to the financial consequences of any delay because of slippage to the introduction of changes here and the timescale set out in Great Britain. I now have an estimate of the potential cost of a delay on an annual basis from the Government Actuary's Department. It worked out in detail the estimate of the health and social care scheme in Northern Ireland, which was chosen because it was the largest. A delay of one year from 2015-16 would result in savings forgone or additional liability in Northern Ireland of £100 million. That is 7% of the pensionable bill, and it would be for each and every year. My officials then conducted a similar exercise for the other schemes using the methods that were used to arrive at that figure. The estimates were as follows: £62 million for teachers; £18 million for the police; £60 million for the Civil Service; £23 million for firefighters; and, as I stated, £100 million for health. That gives a grand total of over £260 million a year.

Although those figures do not represent a direct cash saving, it is likely that HM Treasury will seek to use a similar type of calculation method and recoup the amounts directly from Northern Ireland funding in the event that the reforms are not implemented. The scale of the £260 million is simply too much for us to manage. It will seriously impact on the delivery of public services here. Let me put it into terms that perhaps the general public will understand. Sometimes, we talk in global figures, and we may as well talk in Chinese for all that they mean to people. Let us just see what it means. It is more than Arlene Foster's entire budget in the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Investment. That would mean that the money that she has to support businesses, tourism, energy policy and so on would not be available. It is more than the entire Department of Agriculture and Rural Development budget, so it would mean entirely stopping support for the rural economy, the provision of veterinary services and closing down the Rivers Agency and the Forest Service. It is the cost of employing 5,000 full-time schoolteachers, which means that we would need to cut around one quarter of the schoolteaching workforce to address that financial cost. It is also the average salary costs of more than 8,000 full-time nurses, which is the equivalent to cutting around half of the total qualified nursing workforce.

I emphasise to the Assembly that the cost of pensions is rising. We have to control it now. We need to show leadership to our electorate and to the public in Northern Ireland. However, choosing legislative routes that add undue costs and delay the potential savings to be gained from implementing the pension reforms agreed to in March is not an efficient use of resources. The best that we can do now is expedite our legislative process and ensure that we proceed as quickly as possible. I expect all Members to lend their support to the smooth passage of the pensions Bill to minimise, as far as possible, the financial penalty. The electorate will find it difficult to comprehend why we decided to take the legislative route and wasted time and money that we can ill afford to lose. Therefore, the very best that we can do is get as close as possible to meeting the April 2015 deadline and not procrastinate and deliberate, as we are often inclined to, over the legislative process.

It is regrettable that I had to bring this statement to the Assembly. I know that I made a joke about it, but I hope that it does not overshadow the good news that I was able to announce earlier. I also hope that, during the debate on the statement, we will get a commitment to at least make the best of a bad job and get the legislation through as quickly as possible to avoid what, I believe, would be the disastrous economic consequences of delay.

Daithí McKay (Sinn Féin, North Antrim)

Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. I thank the Minister for his statement. The Finance and Personnel Committee will not be found wanting in ensuring that the Bill proceeds promptly. We will work constructively with the Minister to ensure that changes are made before the deadline in two and half years' time. I agree with the Minister that we cannot procrastinate on this matter. We need to get it right.

Will the Minister explain why the Department has been unable to prepare a Bill or associated regulations in tandem with or closely following developments across the water to allow for local considerations specific to here?

Sammy Wilson (DUP, East Antrim)

I thank the Chairman for that commitment, and I trust that we will not see a repeat of what happened previously. Committees want to do their job properly. However, as I have pointed out, last week, I completed the progress of the Superannuation Bill. It was a two-clause Bill, as opposed to the 35-clause Bill that we will have to go through for pensions. It took over a year to get that Bill through the Assembly, and the Committee looked for extended time. I welcome the Chairman's assurance that that will not happen again this time, because any extended time at Committee Stage will delay things even further. In fact, I have asked my officials whether they were too optimistic in the time that they laid down for Committee Stage.

The Chairman asked why we had not prepared legislation and regulations ahead of the Bill that is going through Westminster. The reason is that the Bill is going through Committee at Westminster and will then go to the House of Lords. Already, considerable amendments have been made in Committee, and I suspect that, as with any other Bill, amendments will also be made in the House of Lords. The OLC has made it clear to us that, as five Departments are involved, preparing legislation here as the Bill is being amended in Westminster would involve quite a lot of nugatory work. It might also require more and more consultation with Departments to make sure that every change that was made at Westminster and then built into whatever was being drafted here was discussed with all five Departments with pension schemes. Therefore, to make the best use of resources and time and to avoid the duplication of work, nugatory work and having to change the Bill continually, it made more sense to do it when the Bill had gone through Westminster and we had seen its final state.

Of course, the other point is that such work would delay the OLC's current work on other Departments' legislation, which people are already complaining about and asking why it has not come through. If the pensions Bill was given priority, the Department of Education, for example, may have to sacrifice its Bill on special needs education, which is at a fairly advanced stage. Losing that Bill might have had repercussions, and there might have been repercussions from losing planning legislation. So, it is not a cost-free option. Of course, it can always be argued that those Bills are ready to go and we know what Departments want them to include, so why not progress with them rather than with a Bill that may be changed two or three times while the OLC works at it?

Paul Girvan (DUP, South Antrim)

I thank the Minister for his statement. He has done a good job of hiding his annoyance and frustration over the way that this is going. It seems that there is a dispute about who legislates for this. Have parties in the Executive agreed the principles of pension reform? How will those who voted for setting it up fund the £260 million?

Sammy Wilson (DUP, East Antrim)

They agreed not only the principles but, it is worth reiterating, the outcome of the process that the Assembly will go through. That has already been decided. The Executive have adopted a position on it that all the main parties support. Indeed, although the Minister of the Environment, who is from the SDLP, did not agree on the legislative consent motion, he is taking through a pension scheme — ahead of all of this — that will reflect the principles of the pension legislation. So, everybody has agreed to not only the principles but the detail that:

"the policy for Career Average Revalued Earnings pension schemes with pension age linked to State Pension Age to be adopted for general use in the Northern Ireland public service schemes; and, to adopt this approach consistently for each of the different public service pension schemes in line with their equivalent scheme in Great Britain and not to adopt a different approach for Northern Ireland".

So, we will go through a legislative process of which the outcome is already known. However, there will be considerable delay and the danger of a financial penalty.

Leslie Cree (UUP, North Down)

It is difficult to understand, but I suppose no more so than it is to understand the delay in the review of the financial process, which is currently bogged down, in which any right-thinking person can see the logic. For clarification for others who may not be aware of the point, is the £100 million that the Minister quotes as savings forgone merely employers' contributions?

Sammy Wilson (DUP, East Antrim)

That will be the additional cost or liability to the public sector for the pension schemes. If there is additional liability, the Treasury has made it clear that Westminster will not pay for it for public sector employers. You can see the logic of that. I know how unpopular this pension measure is. I get letters about it all the time. I have had, as I am sure has every Member, representations from trade unions and individual constituents. It is not a popular measure. Now, do we really think that Westminster is likely to adopt an unpopular measure, for which MPs and Ministers in England are getting it in the neck, and say, "By the way, if Northern Ireland doesn't want to do it, it is all right. We will pay the difference"? You would have to live in fantasy land to believe that. So, a penalty will be involved in this.

All that I can say is that I want to be proved wrong. I can tell Members that I will not drag my heels just to say, "I told you so". This is too important for that. My officials and I will make sure that we do everything that we can to get this pension legislation through. I will be happy to be proved wrong at the end of the day. All that I know is that, when I look at past legislation and present posturing, I am not convinced that we will not finish up paying some penalty in 2015.

Dominic Bradley (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Newry and Armagh)

Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. The Minister will have read in the recent report on the Superannuation Bill that the Committee recommended that, on parity issues, the Department should undertake local consultation with Civil Service trade unions:

"at the formative stage of policy development and in tandem with, rather than subsequent to, the timetable followed by the respective Whitehall department".

Has DFP already fully consulted on the pension reforms locally to identify any local issues and considerations, and, if so, what has been the outcome of that exercise?

Sammy Wilson (DUP, East Antrim)

There is a pensions forum anyway, and all these things are discussed regularly. However, we do not have legislation that we can consult on at present. Again, to try to shorten the period as much as we can, where we can do consultation ahead of, for example, Committee Stage, we will do that. We have already had discussions with the OLC. Where we can get some of the existing legislation displaced to allow the pensions legislation to be drawn up — albeit that there may well be three or four variations before we get it finalised — we will do that as well. We will try to shave off as much time as we can by advance consultation and advance preparation of legislation and so on. Even with that, optimistically, we will still be over the deadline.

Peter Weir (DUP, North Down)

I thank the Minister for his statement, albeit one that is reluctantly given today. What implications will there be for us if there is any slippage in the timetable for the legislation to get through Westminster?

Sammy Wilson (DUP, East Antrim)

If there is slippage in the legislation getting through Westminster, that may well have an implication on the start date. However, Westminster has kept to the timetable to date. The legislation is coming out of Committee, I think, this week, which is exactly as planned. It will go to the House of Lords, and I do not see any reason why there will be any slippage there. Westminster is not anticipating any slippage on it. If there were slippage, of course, it would give us an argument to go to Westminster and say that it cannot impose the date of April 2015 on us if the final Bill was not agreed at the time when it was estimated that it would be. However, I do not see that that is likely to be an outcome, not since, to date, the timetable has been kept to.

Adrian McQuillan (DUP, East Londonderry)

I thank the Minister for his statement. Will not agreeing the legislative consent motion and the cost impact put jobs at risk?

Sammy Wilson (DUP, East Antrim)

I have given some illustrations of what £260 million would purchase: 8,000 nurses; 5,000 teachers; the whole of the DARD budget; the whole of the DETI budget. Of course, if we get the financial penalty, it will mean that we will not have the resources to spend on some of those things, and jobs will be put at risk. It is a bit ironic that, in wanting to exercise the role of the Assembly on something that the Executive have already agreed, we will create that degree of uncertainty. We have agreed what we will do with pensions at the end of the day.

I emphasise again that I am now focused and want everyone else to be focused on making sure that that penalty is minimised, if not eradicated, by swift action — swifter action than we have ever seen before. That means that Ministers have to clear papers quickly and not have them sitting there for two, three or four months. The parties that have brought this about need to bear responsibility. Secondly, when the legislation gets to the Chamber and Committee Stage, there must be no grandstanding, as there has been. I have to say, when I look at the performance on welfare reform, I get worried that the kind of grandstanding that some Members and some parties in the Assembly feel that they have to engage in could delay the pensions Bill. I welcome the assurance from the Chairman this morning — I will keep reminding him of it — that his Committee will not be involved in that kind of grandstanding and that he will stamp on it if it happens. I only hope that all Ministers are listening to what I am saying and that papers will be cleared at a rate that has been unprecedented in the Executive.

Alban Maginness (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast North)

I listened with great interest to what the Minister said. However, is he not aware that there are many dedicated people in the public sector such as teachers, policemen and people who work in the health service who are very concerned that the legislation will result in the erosion of their pension and that they are right to defend their proper interests?

Sammy Wilson (DUP, East Antrim)

I do not understand where the Member is coming from for two reasons. First, his party's Minister's stated position is that, even ahead of this House making any decision, he will introduce pension reform for local government workers, which reflects what will happen in the rest of the United Kingdom. So, his own party's stance seems to be schizophrenic on this issue. Secondly, the Executive have already made a commitment on what the outcome of this will be. Whether we like it or not, we know that we cannot sustain a break with parity.

If the Member is really saying to me and the Assembly that he believes that the protection of pensions to keep them as they are currently are is worth a £260 million hit to the Executive's Budget, I want him to tell me and the House where that £260 million will come from. Is he happy for 8,000 nurses to go on the dole or for 5,000 teachers to be out of work? Is he happy for DETI not to have an economic development budget or for farmers not to have a penny spent on them by DARD? If he is saying that that is the cost and that is what the SDLP is prepared to pay for keeping pensions in their current form, much as people may be angry about it, then we know why it is a small party and will remain one: it is totally irresponsible.

Oral Answers to Questions

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

Questions 3 and 13 have been withdrawn.

Rates: Welfare Reform

Trevor Lunn (Alliance, Lagan Valley)

1. asked the Minister of Finance and Personnel for his assessment of the impact of welfare reform on domestic rates. (AQO 2931/11-15)

Sammy Wilson (DUP, East Antrim)

Welfare reform has implications for the rating system. Those implications are being actively pursued by the Executive subgroup on welfare reform. The main reason why there are implications is because some of the money that would previously have been paid directly from the Exchequer through annually managed expenditure (AME) for rates relief has now been transferred to the departmental expenditure limit (DEL). There has been a 10% reduction in the amount of money that will be transferred. Of course, there will be no annual uplift in that, so the cost of the difference will increase as years go by. For that reason, we are looking at the implications in three phases.

The first and immediate phase is a holding operation. The Executive have already agreed that, at least for the first year and possibly for the second year — although the second year will be difficult, as I will explain in a minute — we will pay the difference, which will cost £13 million. We will keep the current level of rate relief available to single pensioners, etc, in place.

We will then need to look at an interim solution and decide what changes can be made to the scheme to keep it within cost and to reflect the changes that there will be with the introduction of universal credit. Once universal credit comes in, we will not even have the means of identifying who might qualify under some of the rate relief schemes. The passport benefits will all have disappeared, so we have to look for a solution. I hope to bring forward a consultation document that will be presented to the Executive and then go out for wider consultation. As a result of the Social Development Minister's achievement in getting some changes to universal credit, we now have until April 2014 for universal credit to kick in. That may allow the current scheme to roll on for some time.

In the longer run, we will have to make changes on the basis of affordability and of how to identify people, because we will no longer have the passported benefits due to the introduction of universal credit.

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

I remind the Minister of the two-minute rule.

Trevor Lunn (Alliance, Lagan Valley)

I thank the Minister for that extended answer. Given the pressure that councils will be under because of local government reform, have any discussions been held concerning any changes to future assumptions brought about, in particular, by changes to housing benefit?

Sammy Wilson (DUP, East Antrim)

This is really an issue of how we administer housing benefit and rates relief. It should not have any impact on what councils do. This is more for central government Departments and the policy that we adopt. For that reason, there will have to be an Executive consultation document on what changes we need to make to the scheme.

Dominic Bradley (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Newry and Armagh)

Go raibh maith agat. The Minister said that the Executive's support is assured for one year and possibly two years. He seemed to indicate that the second year is in some doubt. Can he clarify the situation with the second year?

Sammy Wilson (DUP, East Antrim)

The Executive have said that they will be prepared to finance it for two years. The only reason why I say that the second year is in doubt is this: how do we choose the people who are eligible for the relief? If the passported benefits have disappeared because of universal credit, do we have to set up a separate administrative system to identify those who should be eligible for relief? That is why I have my worries about extending the scheme beyond April 2014. We may well have to do it. If we do have to do it, we will have to set up our own administrative arrangements, and, of course, there are costs involved in that as well.

Gregory Campbell (DUP, East Londonderry)

Can the Minister outline the extent of that additional cost, given the problems that the Assembly is facing in respect of welfare reform, as it would particularly apply within the Department of Finance and Personnel (DFP)?

Sammy Wilson (DUP, East Antrim)

The cost will be £13 million in the first year. We know that because there is a 10% reduction on the £130 million allowance we have. In the second year, it is estimated that the cost could be as high as £20 million. Members may ask why it would increase from £13 million to £20 million, and there are two reasons for that. First, many of the allowances are age-related so, as the population ages, more people become eligible. Also, some of the allowances are related to income and family circumstances, and the recession is likely to push more people into it. Secondly, even with just an inflationary increase in rates, the amount of the rates bill will go up by inflation, and we expect a normal inflationary increase in the sum.

Mitchel McLaughlin (Sinn Féin, South Antrim)

Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. I thank the Minister for his answers thus far. Will he indicate whether there have been preliminary discussions on anticipated pressures on other relevant departmental budgets in the aftermath of welfare reform, particularly in terms of anti-poverty interventions?

Sammy Wilson (DUP, East Antrim)

That is one of the things that we have been looking at. The Minister for Social Development takes the lead on this through the welfare reform group, but one of the things that we have been looking at is whether all of the money that we spend on passported benefits — there is a range of them, and I am not going to go into them all now — could be pooled and spent in a different way that targets the people who are most affected by welfare reform. That would require some very hard political decisions: Ministers would have to give up some money, and they would have to stop some current schemes, which would not be popular. That is one of the discussions that the welfare reform group has been looking at.

Budget: Review of Financial Processes

Alex Easton (DUP, North Down)

2. asked the Minister of Finance and Personnel to outline the benefits of progressing the review of financial processes. (AQO 2932/11-15)

Ian McCrea (DUP, Mid Ulster)

15. asked the Minister of Finance and Personnel for an update on the review of the Budget process. (AQO 2945/11-15)

Sammy Wilson (DUP, East Antrim)

Mr Speaker, with your permission, I will take questions 2 and 15 together.

In February 2011, the Executive commissioned a review by my officials of the financial process in Northern Ireland. On 9 March 2012, following consultation with the key stakeholders, including this Assembly, I circulated a paper to the Executive, reporting the outcome of the review. To date, that report has not been tabled for discussion by the Executive.

Alex Easton (DUP, North Down)

I thank the Minister for his answer. What is delaying the Executive discussions on the review report's action plan?

Sammy Wilson (DUP, East Antrim)

I have said this before in the House, so I am not giving any new news. The stated aims of the paper were to: increase transparency and accountability to the Assembly, which would give it clearer information on how money was being spent and delivered by each Department; align the Budget Estimates, the Budget and the accounts with the same set of figures so that Members could understand the financial information being presented; and strengthen at an early stage the strategic Budget process, which would have allowed for earlier engagement by the Assembly and its Committees.

Those aims were supported by all of the parties. In the last Budget period, I remember the lack of those things being one of the criticisms, especially from Members opposite. Despite all of that, the Education Minister, for some reason or other, does not want any transparency in his budget and does not want that degree of accountability. He held the process up by refusing to agree the paper. Therefore, Sinn Féin has not allowed the paper to be brought forward, and, at this stage, we are still left without the changes to the financial process.

Ian McCrea (DUP, Mid Ulster)

Will the Minister outline what disaggregated information the Department of Education provides for input into publications by Her Majesty's Treasury and national publications?

Sammy Wilson (DUP, East Antrim)

Here is the ultimate irony in all of this: the Minister who is holding this up because he does not want to divulge the information and wants to have flexibility to move money from his budget around without that degree of accountability, provides the very detail that we seek to have to the Treasury in England. He provides to the Treasury information on the amount that is spent on preschool and primary education, post-primary education, other educational services, youth services and community relations. If you look at the Treasury publications, you will find that information. However, it will not be made freely available and presented by the Department of Education and the Minister of Education to the Assembly. I cannot understand it; the Brits get more information than people here do.

Danny Kinahan (UUP, South Antrim)

I look forward to the financial process being more intelligible. What scope does the Minister have to break the logjam in the Executive so that we have a more accountable system that we can all understand?

Sammy Wilson (DUP, East Antrim)

I have the same scope as with the pensions Bill in that, once papers have been delayed by the Executive for three meetings, as a result of reforms that we introduced, I can bring the paper forward myself. I did that with the pensions Bill, and I think that I will have to do that with the financial processes Bill. I hope that it does not get the same treatment as the pensions Bill, where a cross-community vote is demanded and, therefore, it becomes stuck regardless of the fact that the majority of Executive members may wish it to come forward. I hope that that will not be the case. That is one way of breaking the logjam and a route that I have to consider.

Jim Allister (Traditional Unionist Voice, North Antrim)

I am reluctant to intervene when the Executive are doing such a good job of flagging up their own dysfunctionality, but I want to ask about the resistance of the Department of Education and the Minister to transparency in the Budget. So as people might understand, does that mean that, at the moment, we have a global line in the Budget with no breakdown of where the money goes in the various sectors in education? Is it the case, in consequence, that the Minister of Education can shift money from the controlled sector to the maintained sector and Irish-medium sector without anyone ever knowing anything about it because it was never in anything but the most general terms in the Budget in the first place?

Sammy Wilson (DUP, East Antrim)

The Member is right that the headings are very broad and cover schools mainstream, schools infrastructure, and youth and community expenditure. Money can be moved within that.

I do not seek the degree of control whereby every minute line is outlined in the budget process because, of course, Ministers need some flexibility. I do not believe that any Minister should fear the changes that we are asking for. After all, the Assembly votes money on the basis of bids that are made by Ministers, and there are discussions about the budget and an anticipation that money will be spent in a particular way. If it will not be spent in that way, the Assembly and the Committee should at least be aware of that, and no Minister should fear that. All that it means is that you have to argue your case for changing the pattern of expenditure, and that is good for openness, transparency and accountability.

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

Question 3 has been withdrawn.

Prompt Payment: Subcontractors

Daithí McKay (Sinn Féin, North Antrim)

4. asked the Minister of Finance and Personnel how he will safeguard subcontractors to ensure that they receive prompt payment for both private and public sector work. (AQO 2934/11-15)

Sammy Wilson (DUP, East Antrim)

As far as we are concerned, the main control for prompt payment to subcontractors is to be found in public sector contracts. We have tried to do certain things to make it easier for subcontractors in the private sector who feel aggrieved to go to arbitration — that arbitration can be cheaper, etc.

The Central Procurement Directorate (CPD) guidance for public sector contracts says that, first, payments by main contractors have to be made within 30 days of a valid invoice. Secondly, there should be monthly reporting by the main contractors on subcontractor payments and the progress that has been made. Thirdly, payment issues should be regarded as a standing item at project meetings. Fourthly, there has to be validation by project managers, for example, by conducting random checks, that subcontractors have received payments. Lastly, where main contractors fail in their obligations, we can exclude them from applying for public sector contracts for a one-year period.

Daithí McKay (Sinn Féin, North Antrim)

Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. I met the Construction Employers Federation (CEF) in recent weeks, and contractors and subcontractors are appreciative of the measures that have been taken by the Department to try to deal with the issue. They are very strongly of the opinion that this works better in England. In Germany, for example, there is a much more radical and efficient system that protects subcontractors. We need to move ahead from what we currently have here. Do you agree, Minister, that we need to consider more radical measures and changes to the system to ensure that what is currently happening with the ripple effect from Patton is not repeated?

Sammy Wilson (DUP, East Antrim)

I do. The Chairman and the Finance Committee have raised the issue with me on a number of occasions, and they are quite right to do so.

We are considering the fairly radical step of introducing project bank accounts. Through that, when a contractor submits a bill with invoices for the work that has been done, the money would go not to the main contractor's account but into a project bank account and then be paid directly to the subcontractors on the basis of invoices that they have submitted and which have been agreed by the main contractor. On some occasions, the main contractor has held on to money. Rather than having that middle man, if a valid claim were issued and the main contractor were to say that it is a valid claim, the money would go directly to a subcontractor. CPD is considering that, and it would be a fairly radical step forward.

Paul Frew (DUP, North Antrim)

I welcome the Minister's comments on project bank accounts, which are badly needed in our construction industry. Another big issue for the construction industry is the practice of subeconomic tendering. What steps are being taken to prevent subeconomic tendering in the future?

Sammy Wilson (DUP, East Antrim)

Public procurement regulations enable contracting authorities to set aside a tender that they regard as being abnormally low. Of course, that is after offering the tenderer the opportunity to explain and clarify why it has offered such a low tender because there could be very good reasons why someone believes that they could do a job at a rate that even the client believes is below the economic rate. We are now considering guidance to the centres of procurement expertise (COPEs) that will enable them to exclude bids that are below the economic rate.

We have to be very clear that there will be implications. You will find that there will be judicial reviews and challenges to some of those decisions. People always ask what the Government are doing on the issue, and I am outlining some of the things that we can do. Ultimately, however, the industry and members of the industry submit the tenders. If they drive prices down, which in turn drives firms to the walls or drives main contractors to put the burden on subcontractors, the industry also needs to address that. Although we have some responsibility, the CEF and all the other construction employers and organisations also need to do things to sort out their industry. I say that to them all the time. You might think it odd to hear it coming from a Finance Minister, but subeconomic prices are not to anyone's advantage.

Patsy McGlone (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Mid Ulster)

Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. I want to ask the Minister a couple of things. First, as part of the Pre-qualification Questionnaire (PQQ) process, some firms have tendered for work and received work when, on the face of it, they have absolutely no history and no experience whatsoever in that work, constituted as that firm. Secondly, in the prompt payments report from the Audit Office, we saw that, beyond Departments, there were education and library boards, health trusts and local authorities that were being more than dilatory in their payments —

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

I encourage the Member to finish.

Patsy McGlone (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Mid Ulster)

Will the Minister advise what he has done to accelerate that process of prompt payment?

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

There should be only one enquiry in a question.

Sammy Wilson (DUP, East Antrim)

The Programme for Government has a target for payments within a 10-day period and a 30-day period. Some Departments have succeeded in achieving that more than others. My Department has a 99% rate of payment within 30 days. Other Departments, sometimes brought down by their arm's-length bodies, do not have such a good record.

We can do a number of things. The Finance Minister and the Committees must keep emphasising to Ministers that, if there are bodies that are associated with Departments that are not engaging in prompt payment, they have to do something about it and start leaning on them. In times when businesses find it hard to get money from the banks, we cannot afford to put them under even greater pressure as far as working capital is concerned. That pressure will come from ministerial level right down to the ones who are failing to do it.

As to the question about firms that have no record of doing similar work, it is not always possible to say exactly what similar work is. You do not want to close the market to new entrants. However, I think that the Member was alluding to firms that go bankrupt and set up another company. I am pleased to tell him — because, Mr Speaker, the Member first brought it to my attention — that, as a result of his bringing it to my attention, the procurement board has now agreed that, if a firm becomes insolvent before or during a tender process, it will be excluded from the contract.

Road Projects: Finance

Mervyn Storey (DUP, North Antrim)

5. asked the Minister of Finance and Personnel to outline the financial consequences for other road projects, such as the A26, should there be any further delay in the progression of the A5 project. (AQO 2935/11-15)

Sammy Wilson (DUP, East Antrim)

When I announced the outcome of the Executive’s October monitoring round and the 2013-14 and 2014-15 Budget realignment, I explained that, as far as the delay on the A5 and A8 road schemes was concerned, there was money that would not be spent in this year.

Two things have been done. The first is that, in the monitoring round, the Department for Regional Development was allocated £31 million, which could be spent mostly on water projects that could be brought forward to this year. That money has to go back into the roads budget next year. So, this year, we will get some construction work done, albeit by Northern Ireland Water rather than Roads Service.

Secondly, where there was money that could not be spent this year and would have to be carried over, I am pleased to tell the Assembly that the Treasury has now agreed with the proposal that I put to them, which enables us to carry over £50 million into the final year of the Budget period. That means that there should be no impact on other spending decisions and projects. Therefore, other road schemes should not be affected by the delay in either of these two projects.

Mervyn Storey (DUP, North Antrim)

I thank the Minister for clarifying the situation for me. I am disappointed by a letter that the Minister sent to me, in which he referred to the fact that he had not received any representation from Minister Kennedy on the A26 road scheme, particularly in relation to finance. Given that the scheme covers a Budget period beyond this Budget period of 2011-15, will the Finance Minister explain to the House what carry-over mechanisms are in place to ensure that a project identified in one Budget period is delivered in the next?

Sammy Wilson (DUP, East Antrim)

It is up to the Minister for Regional Development to decide which projects he wants to carry forward and prioritise. The A26 road scheme was identified as one for the next Budget period.

We do not know what the capital budget will be for the next Budget period or what other measures we might undertake. We are looking, for example, at resource-financed investment, whereby we switch some resource into financing loans for capital expenditure. However, that decision will have to be made when we come to discuss the next Budget. As we really do not know what resources will be available, it is difficult to say at this stage whether even some of the things that have been set as priorities now can be done in the next Budget period. On the other hand, if there were to be a relaxing by the Government of restrictions on infrastructure and capital spending, or new ways that would enable us to borrow, some schemes that we think do not have a hope of getting started might get started.

Sandra Overend (UUP, Mid Ulster)

Will the Minister advise us of the costs to date of the delay to the A5 project?

Sammy Wilson (DUP, East Antrim)

It is estimated that the cost is about £10 million per month. However, it is not actually cost; it is simply unspent money that we have to look for ways of spending. As I said, to ensure that money is spent this year, we are bringing forward some Northern Ireland Water projects, which would have been done next year, and they will give work to the construction industry. The money for those projects will then be transferred from the Northern Ireland Water budget to road infrastructure. There will be some delay in the rest of the spend on the A5. However, at least that money will not be lost, because the Treasury has given us the ability to carry it over right into the final year of the Budget.

Joe Byrne (Social Democratic and Labour Party, West Tyrone)

I thank the Minister for his answer, and I wish him good luck in the conclusion of his discussions with the Treasury on the funding mechanism going forward. Will he confirm that everyone concerned still intends the A5 to proceed as envisaged?

Sammy Wilson (DUP, East Antrim)

Yes. The reason why we have gone to such lengths to secure the money and to make sure that, although we cannot spend it this year, it will be available next year or the year after, is an indication of the good intent on the Executive's part. We have gone to great lengths to secure it, because the great fear was that the Treasury, which, for obvious reasons, is very hard on carrying money over, has acceded to our request. We have been able to tailor it in such a way to make sure that the Treasury does not compromise its position on the Administrations in Wales or Scotland.

Chambers of Commerce

William Humphrey (DUP, Belfast North)

6. asked the Minister of Finance and Personnel what discussions he has had with the chambers of commerce regarding the acute economic and financial difficulties currently facing traders. (AQO 2936/11-15)

Sammy Wilson (DUP, East Antrim)

As part of the consultation, my proposal is to rebalance the rating system. I have had extensive engagement with local chambers of commerce, and I have also spoken to bodies such as the Federation of Small Businesses and NIIRTA. I have visited a number of locations across Northern Ireland, including Ballyclare, Belfast, Newry, Limavady, Londonderry, Newcastle, Lisburn, Fermanagh and Banbridge — and Carrickfergus and Larne, which I am in every week anyway. I have done a grand tour of Northern Ireland, and I have spoken to traders, councils and traders' organisations. I have had feedback on what is and what is not working and on what needs to be done. I have tried to be as realistic as possible with the workload.

William Humphrey (DUP, Belfast North)

I thank the Minister for his answer. I concur with what he said, because in conversations that I have had with the Belfast Chamber of Commerce and the traders whom I know, they said that they are very appreciative of the work that he and his colleagues continue to do. So, I commend him in the House for doing that. Given the feedback that I have received and that he mentioned, will he continue, through this very difficult period for traders, to work with those locally and with chambers of commerce across Northern Ireland not just in the run-up to Christmas but as we go into the new year?

Sammy Wilson (DUP, East Antrim)

Not only will I do that but other Ministers will do the same. We should consider the amount of money that has gone into the jobs and economy initiative and at the ongoing work that the Minister of Enterprise, Trade and Investment and the Minister for Social Development are carrying out and at what the high street task force is doing by looking at what can be done to help small businesses.

We should also look at all the work that DETI is doing with the retail business, including the small business loans fund, which will give loans of up to £50,000 unsecured for five years — many small businesses cannot get that from the banks — and at other training initiatives that have been undertaken. If we consider those, we will see that it is not just the Department of Finance that is engaged in this; the whole Executive are engaged in looking at ways in which we can help small businesses in Northern Ireland. As I said earlier, those microeconomic interventions can be as important as some of the headline macrointerventions that tend to get most of the news coverage.

Alasdair McDonnell (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast South)

I thank the Minister for his answers so far. I hope that he enjoyed his tour. I was going to ask him where he has not been, rather than where he has. Does he have any assessment of the overall percentage of our retail outlets that have shut down? Equally, how many of those may have re-opened on a charitable basis or as charity shops and may not be obliged to pay rates as a result?

Sammy Wilson (DUP, East Antrim)

I am sure that that information is available, although it is not available in the big black book of answers that I have here today. Therefore, I cannot give the Member that information, but I will. I will say to the Member that, on a day when we have announced a whole lot of positive things, I would prefer to see Members emphasise the positive things that are happening, rather than wanting me to give all the figures that illustrate the bad or the gloomy news about Northern Ireland.

This year, 52 businesses have opened as a result of the empty shops relief; half the businesses in Northern Ireland are getting a 20% reduction in their rates as a result of actions that the Assembly has taken; and businesses in the manufacturing sector will have £60 million available to them that they would not have if they did not have the rate relief. Over the next two years, as a result of the small business rate relief, businesses will have £36 million in their pockets that they did not have previously. Those are the good things. Perhaps we should talk about the good things rather than always look for the bad news. The journalists do that. This is an Assembly. We, as Members, should at least try to get some optimism into the economy.

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

Question 4 has been withdrawn and requires a written answer.

Termination of Pregnancy Guidelines

Alban Maginness (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast North)

1. asked the Minister of Health, Social Services and Public Safety when he will publish guidelines on the medical termination of pregnancy in light of the tragedy reported in Galway. (AQO 2946/11-15)

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

It would be inappropriate for me to comment on the tragedy in Galway, but I do wish to extend my deepest sympathy to the family of Savita Halappanavar.

As to the publication of guidance, as I have stated before, I will take my time to explore fully all the issues involved and to ensure that any document produced for health professionals is compatible with the requirements of the law. I will not, nor should I, given the gravity of the issue, rush to produce guidelines to an artificial timeline.

Alban Maginness (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast North)

I thank the Minister for his answer. This is a difficult task facing the Minister, and one respects his position. When compiling such guidelines, will he remember that there is intense public feeling around the abortion issue? Will he do all in his power to protect the life of the unborn child?

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

The position of the Department of Health is that we are seeking to save lives and protect life. That is the first and foremost rule in the Department on the provision of healthcare: it is about saving lives, not taking life. I believe that that applies to those who are born and to the unborn, because we seek to save and protect life. We are very clear that the life of the mother has a priority here, but that is purely in those instances in which the life of the mother is under threat. Some form of social abortion is not something that I will ever be bringing before the House or seeking the support of Members for, and I do not believe that if I were inclined to do so, it would receive the support of the House because it is not something that is publicly supported.

Maeve McLaughlin (Sinn Féin, Foyle)

I thank the Minister for his response. Has he had any recent discussions with the Royal College of Midwives or other health professionals about their concerns around the delay in publishing the guidelines? Go raibh maith agat.

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

I was with the Royal College of Midwives recently on the development of a maternity strategy. We have not discussed the issue to which the Member refers. I know that there are people from the Royal College of Midwives who are advisers to Marie Stopes. I am of the opinion that the role of midwives is largely to ensure quality care for expectant mothers and the babies whom those expectant mothers are carrying; to ensure that they receive the best possible support throughout that pregnancy; to ensure the safe delivery of that baby; and to provide considerable support thereafter to ensure that the baby gets the best start in life, as opposed to being involved with something that is, in fact, taking the life of the unborn child.

Ian McCrea (DUP, Mid Ulster)

The Minister will be more than aware that there are a lot of calls for guidance for professionals. Does he consider the law on abortion in Northern Ireland to be clear?

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

The law is clear here. Abortion in Northern Ireland is regulated by criminal law, and termination of pregnancy in Northern Ireland is illegal, unless there is a real and serious threat to the life of the woman, or if there is a real and serious threat to the physical or mental health of the woman that is either long term or permanent in its nature. In any other circumstances, it would be unlawful to perform a procedure that terminates a pregnancy. We can produce guidelines that will, perhaps, help to provide clarity for obstetricians in particular situations, but that will not change the law. This House is the only thing that can change the law, and, as I indicated, I will not be bringing anything before the House to change that law.

Sandra Overend (UUP, Mid Ulster)

Will the Minister be following closely the investigation of the Galway tragedy so that any lessons relevant to Northern Ireland could be quickly applied?

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

I am not exactly sure what the Ulster Unionists' position might happen to be. I am very clear that we set the rules here on abortion. It is not something that has been kept at Westminster, and I am glad that it is not with Westminster. A previous Secretary of State indicated that it was their deepest regret that they had not introduced abortion to Northern Ireland. Some people who maybe advocate direct rule are, on the other hand, opposed to abortion. The two things are not compatible. Perhaps they can learn that that is the case.

Jim Allister (Traditional Unionist Voice, North Antrim)

Despite such help as guidance might give to some, does the Minister agree that to bring certainty and quell the controversy that has arisen from the opening of the Marie Stopes abortion clinic, an option he might consider would be to provide that such termination of pregnancy as may be lawful in certain circumstances could only lawfully be carried out in a National Health Service facility? That would bring that certainty. Would the Minister consider that as a way forward?

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

We are considering all options and are seeking legal advice on all of them with respect to what can be applied in Northern Ireland. The Regulation and Quality Improvement Authority (RQIA) is continuing with its course of work. There is different governance for Northern Ireland than for the rest of the UK in that respect. It may be something that can be done simply by giving RQIA all the responsibility for monitoring all bodies.

Alternatively, it may be that we only permit abortions to be carried out in a health service facility. All those things are open for discussion. All those things are being looked at. When we have received all the advice, I will bring this matter to the Assembly. Thankfully, you have a Minister who does have this particular position. Had you a direct rule Minister, the position may be completely different; they may have welcomed Marie Stopes to Northern Ireland and supported abortion in Northern Ireland. I am thankful that the Assembly is not in that position.

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

Mr Lunn is not in place to ask question 2.

Paediatric Congenital Cardiac Services

Chris Lyttle (Alliance, Belfast East)

3. asked the Minister of Health, Social Services and Public Safety to outline the future of paediatric congenital cardiac services following the recent announcement by the Secretary of State for Health that he would be following the Independent Reconfiguration Panel’s recommendation that the Safe and Sustainable review of paediatric congenital cardiac services in England and Wales should be reviewed. (AQO 2948/11-15)

Mike Nesbitt (UUP, Strangford)

6. asked the Minister of Health, Social Services and Public Safety for an update on the consultation on paediatric congenital cardiac care following the fresh review announced in England by the Secretary of State for Health. (AQO 2951/11-15)

Dominic Bradley (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Newry and Armagh)

9. asked the Minister of Health, Social Services and Public Safety whether he will suspend the current consultation on paediatric congenital cardiac services in light of the decision to review Sir Ian Kennedy's recommendations. (AQO 2954/11-15)

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

Mr Speaker, with your permission, I will answer questions 3, 6 and 9 together.

The review announced by the Secretary of State for Health in England has no immediate relevance to the review being undertaken by the Health and Social Care Board on paediatric cardiac surgical services in Northern Ireland. The Northern Ireland public consultation is, therefore, continuing as planned. I expect to reach a decision on the provision of that service for the population of Northern Ireland in early 2013.

Chris Lyttle (Alliance, Belfast East)

I thank the Minister for his response. Does he accept that the fact that the recommendations of the Safe and Sustainable team have been called into question by the Independent Reconfiguration Panel has caused significant concern for the public in Northern Ireland? Will he update the Assembly on his work with the Irish Minister for Health with regards the feasibility of a joint all-island children's heart surgery service?

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

Clearly, Jeremy Hunt has rolled back from what was proposed in the work that has been done in England. We are engaged in a consultation process. I have to say that a lot of people, who are very well qualified medically, support the report's recommendations. I do not think that we can ignore that, because those people have particular expertise, but I think that there will be a lot of problems with the implementation of such a report for Northern Ireland, not least the fact that a lot of people would end up being separated from their children at a time when they want to be with them most. There is also a huge potential for children's lives to be lost when their parents are not with them, which is something that I would be appalled by. So, we will look at all the options. I had a very useful meeting with Minister Reilly and his most senior civil servant last week, and that course of work is continuing. I hope that that will lead to a fruitful outcome, but we have to wait and see.

Mike Nesbitt (UUP, Strangford)

Should the Minister go ahead with downgrading the existing facilities in the Clark Clinic, what sort of knock-on effects would there be in retaining specialism and other treatments for young people in the broad area?

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

I have not taken any decision to downgrade anything, but, at this moment in time, if you were to lose cardiac paediatric care, it would have an impact in respect of the requirement for anaesthetists, and, consequently, that might put further stress on the hospital. Members need to realise that our children's hospital is relatively small, and for a lot of the more difficult and complex procedures, care is not available in Northern Ireland. Indeed, care will come under greater pressure to be available in Northern Ireland, as we do not have the scale to have the support surgeons and consultants in place. So, this is going to be a continuing challenge to us, and, hopefully, we will get over this hurdle and find a progressive means through it. Members should recognise that given the nature of it and given the population that we have, it may not be possible to provide everything in respect of care for children directly here in Northern Ireland, and we need to operate in other networks.

Dominic Bradley (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Newry and Armagh)

Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as ucht as a fhreagra. I thank the Minister for his answer. Will the Minister suspend the current consultation on paediatric congenital heart services in light of the decision to review Sir Ian Kennedy's recommendations?

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

We operate under different legislation to the rest of GB. Therefore, if we are to make decisions of significance, it is incumbent on us to engage in consultative processes. I am not going to break the law and then make a decision, only for it to be challenged by judicial review. I will allow the consultation process to run its course and will make a decision based on best advice available. We will get a lot of advice coming from the health side and from the parents and families who have had children treated in the Clark Clinic and have gone through surgical procedures here in Northern Ireland.

I want to ensure that we have the best possible treatment paths and the best possible care for these young children who need the best possible care and do not need second-class treatment. I want to ensure that they only get the best possible care, whether it is here in Northern Ireland, whether it is in Dublin, or whether it is across in mainland Britain.

Sue Ramsey (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. I thank the Minister for his honest answers on this issue. The Minister is well aware that the Health Committee was in the hospital last week and took evidence on this issue, which is important to children and families. It is also a very emotive issue. We made a proposal that the Minister suspends the current consultation process. Taking on board the answer that the Minister gave previously, if the Minister is willing and is looking to make a decision early in the new year, where does the review of the review that has taken place in England fit in? Is there a time frame for when that report is due to come out?

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

Clearly, we had the Kennedy review, which gave its recommendations, and it does not sit in isolation from other courses of work that were carried out in 2011. Indeed, there will be close scrutiny of the success rate of operations that have taken place in the Royal Victoria Hospital over the course of time; 2012, and so forth. It is absolutely critical that all of that is taken into account. We engaged in the consultation process, and we will come to a decision.

We do not believe that the review in England has immediate relevance to our review. We are going about our course of work and will arrive at our decision based on the information that we have received at that point.

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

Question 4 has been withdrawn.

Chronic Condition Management Programme

John Dallat (Social Democratic and Labour Party, East Londonderry)

5. asked the Minister of Health, Social Services and Public Safety to outline the uptake of the chronic condition management programme to which he committed in the Programme for Government. (AQO 2950/11-15)

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

The Programme for Government (PFG) commitment is to enrol people with a long-term condition who want to be enrolled on a dedicated chronic condition management programme. There is currently no comprehensive picture of what patient education and self-management programmes are available across Northern Ireland. Under that PFG commitment, the year 1 milestone for 2012-13 is, therefore, to identify patient education and self-management programmes for long-term conditions that are in place in each trust area, including information about the number and type of programmes, provider organisations and number of attendees.

My Department is working with the Public Health Agency (PHA) to establish a data set of such programmes for the baseline year 2011-12. Once that is in place, it will help to inform priorities for commissioning of patient education and self-management programmes in the future. Arrangements will be put in place to monitor progress over time with regard to the number and type of patient education and self-management programmes that are available and the number of attendees.

John Dallat (Social Democratic and Labour Party, East Londonderry)

I thank the Minister for his answer. I listened carefully to what he said. Can he give some indication of what additional resources have been designated to meet the targets that he has just told us about?

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

As regards resources, obviously, in our role with telemedicine, for example, we have identified that we will put an additional £18 million into people's engagement in greater self-management and home care. People with chronic conditions will be able to have information sent to the central database and will, therefore, get a much quicker response when vital signs demonstrate stress because that is updated by the individual daily. We have decided to make that very significant investment, which will impact on the lives of some 20,000 people.

Gregory Campbell (DUP, East Londonderry)

I thank the Minister for outlining the work that has been done so far. Is he in a position to outline the distinctions in the programmes in the various trust areas? If it is too early for that, will it be the case that, eventually, in the longer run, resources will follow the greater prevalence in the various trust areas?

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

Certainly, some trusts have been much quicker in their responses than others. I would like to see all trusts respond in a way that ensures that we can roll things out as quickly as possible and impact on as many people as possible, because it is evident to us that the more that we engage people in self-care, the more early interventions we will have. Early intervention generally leads to better management of a chronic condition, which does not allow it to become an acute condition. That is all beneficial. We have evidence of some really good work being done by some trusts. Others are falling behind. They need to look at that, identify why they are falling behind, and pick up speed.

Roy Beggs (UUP, East Antrim)

Can the Minister advise when the health service in Northern Ireland began such closer management of chronic conditions and when significant improvements in the quality of care and the resultant reduction in hospital bed days can be expected and are, in fact, already being achieved in Northern Ireland?

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

I launched the Department's policy framework 'Living With Long Term Conditions' in April 2012. The framework provides a strategic direction and driver for commissioning, planning and delivery of services for adults with long-term conditions in Northern Ireland. A key feature of the policy framework is that people with long-term conditions should be supported to self-manage their conditions and have the knowledge and skills that they need to be able to do so effectively in order to maintain or enhance their health and well-being, as well as their clinical, emotional and social outcomes. A long-term conditions regional implementation steering group is to be established to drive forward the framework. It will include representation from the Health and Social Care Board (HSCB), the PHA, health and social care trusts, and the Long Term Conditions Alliance NI. The terms of reference are being finalised. It is anticipated that the implementation group will be in place shortly, and a key outcome for the regional implementation steering group will be the development of an action plan to progress the good practice set out in the policy framework.

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

Question 6 has already been answered.

Domiciliary Care: Private Firms

Daithí McKay (Sinn Féin, North Antrim)

7. asked the Minister of Health, Social Services and Public Safety to outline the governance and accountability arrangements which exist for firms offering private domiciliary care on behalf of the health trusts. (AQO 2952/11-15)

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

The Regulation and Quality Improvement Authority, as the independent regulator of health and social care providers, has responsibility, under the Domiciliary Care Agencies Regulations (Northern Ireland) 2007, made under the Health and Personal Social Services (Quality, Improvement and Regulation) (Northern Ireland) Order 2003, to regulate — that is to register and inspect — domiciliary care agencies against minimal standards, which are published on the Department's website. Inspections are carried out annually.

Daithí McKay (Sinn Féin, North Antrim)

Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. Will the Minister confirm that there will be no change in the governance and accountability arrangements?

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

If any change takes place, it will be a further tightening of governance. We cannot slacken or reduce in any way the governance and regulation of those who provide care to people who are vulnerable. It is absolutely critical that we do not drop our guard when it comes to providing care for people who are in a vulnerable condition.

Gordon Dunne (DUP, North Down)

Will the Minister provide an update on the provision of remote telemonitoring in older people's homes, as managed by Fold TeleCare centre in Holywood, in my constituency?

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

Up to the middle of November, approximately 2,500 people in Northern Ireland have benefited from remote telemonitoring since its introduction. A further 124 have been referred and are awaiting its installation. The service will allow those with chronic conditions to be monitored regularly from home and will ensure that changes in their condition are identified at the earliest point.

Samuel Gardiner (UUP, Upper Bann)

Does the Minister accept that with the increasing reliance on domiciliary care, there is increased need for respite care to support the families?

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

I think that that point has a lot of validity, particularly where we are seeking the support of voluntary carers. A lot of those carers operate under a huge amount of pressure, and if they crack, the system ends up having to deal with both individuals involved. So, it is essential that we provide good support for carers, and one way of doing that is to have adequate respite care.

Conall McDevitt (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast South)

Does the Minister know how much was paid last year to private providers?

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

I do not have a figure for the amount paid to private providers, but I do know that we spend £265 million on nursing home care; £203 million on domiciliary care; £160 million on residential care; £78 million on day care; and £59 million on social work.

In all of that, we need to ensure that we get value for money. We are spending huge amounts of government money. In the financial year 2010-11, the hourly cost of providing domiciliary care in the statutory sector was £16·76, while in the private sector it was £12·77. So, if we can ensure that the care provided by the private sector is of equal standing to that in the statutory sector, there is an obvious saving to be made, and it would be inappropriate for anybody in the House, including me, to stand in the way of this House saving the healthcare system money, which can then be dispensed and used in better ways throughout the system or to provide better care for others.

Health Service: Accountability