Northern Ireland Assembly, 12 November 2013

288 contributions from 66 members. The official report.

Assembly Business

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

It is my sad duty to inform the Assembly of the death of Mr Eddie McGrady, a former Member here for South Down. I would like to take this opportunity to extend my personal condolences to his family circle and to all his party colleagues on their sad loss. I came to know Eddie McGrady extremely well; he and I served on the first Policing Board. He was one of life's true gentlemen, and politics in Northern Ireland will be much sadder with the loss of Eddie McGrady.

Seán Rogers (Social Democratic and Labour Party, South Down)

Thank you, Mr Speaker, for your kind words. Unfortunately, the party leader and deputy leader cannot be here this morning. Like all members of the SDLP, I was saddened to hear of Eddie's passing last night. He was a giant among giants in politics and a man who was totally dedicated to peace and the creation of a lasting prosperity for all our people.

He was born and bred in Downpatrick. He sat on Downpatrick Urban Council in the 1960s and 1970s and then moved on to Down District Council, where he sat until 1989. In 1970, he was a founding member of the SDLP, later serving as its first chairman. After a number of unsuccessful attempts, he won a Westminster seat in 1987, when he defeated Ulster Unionist Enoch Powell.

His passing is a loss not only to his friends, family and the SDLP but to all the people of this land. We have lost a great democrat, a true visionary and a patriot. His huge contribution to politics in the North led not only to the shaping of our history but to the foundations of our future.

Over his years in public life, Eddie provided invaluable assistance, representation and genuine advice to thousands of constituents, irrespective of their political opinion or religious background. South Down and the whole of the North remain indebted to Eddie and what he did for the peace process. He was a man of highest integrity, considerable courage and a deep faith. He brought sharp political insight to everyone he dealt with, whether that was dealing one-to-one with local councillors or with the complexities of an emerging new police force.

His words, delivered by our party leader, Alasdair McDonnell, at the weekend, ring true to the man he was. He said:

"Don't mourn for me ... Just get out there and finish the job."

My thoughts and prayers are with his children, Paula, Jerome and Conaill, as well as the wider family circle, his sister, Marie, and brother, Malachy, and of course his deep friend and political colleague Margaret Ritchie.

When I spoke to Eddie last Wednesday night, I said a prayer with him, because I knew that it would not be long. He will be deeply missed as a close friend and colleague. He has left a lot for Margaret, Karen and me to do to try to fill his shoes in South Down. May he rest in peace.

Jim Wells (DUP, South Down)

I concur with everything that Mr Rogers has said.

I first met Eddie McGrady 31 years ago at a meeting of tenants in Saul Street in Downpatrick. I have worked alongside and with him ever since. He was a gentleman and gentle by nature. What impressed me about Eddie McGrady was that he was scrupulously fair in his representation of all the people of South Down. He was held in the highest respect. Be it in unionist areas, nationalist areas or areas with ethnic minorities, Eddie McGrady was the man people knew they could turn to if they had an issue at Westminster. From Cranfield to Crossgar, from Kilkeel to Kilcoo, everyone had the highest respect for Eddie McGrady.

I happened to be chairing a meeting in Downe Hospital on what turned out to be his last day as the Member of Parliament for South Down. I saw him coming into the back of the meeting and I realised that Parliament would be prorogued in a few hours' time and that this was Eddie's last meeting. I called him up to the front to say a few last words, and there was hardly a dry eye in the house. Eddie clearly was going to miss representing the people of South Down. Indeed, even when he stood down as MP, he would ring me and ask whether he could attend site meetings that I was organising. I understand that that was quite a regular occurrence, such was his dedication.

He will sadly be missed by all. He was a political giant and I find it a privilege to have known him for so long.

Caitriona Ruane (Sinn Féin, South Down)

Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle agus tá muid ag smaoineamh ar chlann Eddie McGrady ag an am brónach seo. We are thinking of Eddie McGrady's family at this very, very sad time.

He provided 23 years of service to the people of South Down. Obviously, Eddie and I had different views on many things. We shared views on many other things. What I can say is that I always found him to be a very courteous and fair colleague and enjoyed working with him on a range of issues. I met him fairly recently at the opening of a school and we had a bit of craic together. I know that he will be missed by his colleagues in the SDLP. He will be missed by other colleagues and by all of us in the House. I pay tribute to the service that he provided to the people of South Down over the past two and a half decades.

Mike Nesbitt (UUP, Strangford)

I heard of the passing of Mr McGrady while I was in my office at tea time yesterday. When I was leaving the building, I bumped into a senior member of the SDLP who was keen to inform me that Mr McGrady had passed away; he was unaware that I knew. The look on their face and their tone of voice left me in no doubt that this was a matter of huge sadness for the family that is the Social Democratic and Labour Party.

We all agree that, by character, Eddie McGrady was a gentleman. By political conviction, he was a colossus in promoting the aspiration of a united Ireland, but doing so at a time when he, Seamus Mallon and John Hume in particular stood resolute in saying that that aspiration was sullied by violence and those who tried to promote the cause through the use of the bomb and the bullet.

On his political skills, what more need we say than that he unseated Enoch Powell? Enoch Powell. It took more than one go, but he did it. What a testament to the skills of Eddie McGrady as a politician.

As a journalist, I always enjoyed interviewing Eddie McGrady. I will not give too much away, but there was a time during the negotiations that led to the Belfast/Good Friday Agreement when Ulster Television ran a sweepstake on when an announcement would be made. Eddie came to our interview point, and I asked him whether he would like to join the sweepstake. He did and he won. Either he had inside knowledge or some influence over what was going on in those talks.

I am sorry that my colleague Danny Kennedy MLA is not here to pay tribute. However, when we heard the news last night, he was very keen to join me in issuing a statement that expressed the sadness of the Ulster Unionist Party.

Finally, Eddie McGrady gave 50 years — 50 years — of his life to public service. What a fantastic testament to Eddie McGrady. The Ulster Unionists pass on our sympathy to his family and to the SDLP.

David Ford (Alliance, South Antrim)

I also want to add a few words of sympathy. Mr Speaker, you started by describing Eddie McGrady as a "gentleman", and I think that every Member who has spoken has used that term of him. Undoubtedly, he was a gentlemen. He was man of firm principle. If you met him and talked with him, you could not doubt that he was a nationalist by conviction, yet he was also absolutely determined to ensure that devolution worked in this place and to play his part in ending the violence of the early days of his political career by ensuring that we could move forward constructively and progressively together.

Sean Rogers and, indeed, Jim Wells spoke about South Down from their different perspectives. I cannot do that. However, the fact that Eddie was able to achieve the vote that he did with the background that he had in a constituency such as South Down showed that he could attract votes from a diverse range of people. He was able to do that because of the concern that he had for his constituents and the work that he did for each and every one of them.

I will remember him personally from the negotiations that led to the Good Friday Agreement and from those happy days of the first Assembly when things did not run as smoothly as under your jurisdiction, Mr Speaker. The deals that were done in the corridor behind the Speaker's Chair generally involved Jim Wilson from the Ulster Unionist Party and Eddie, and sometimes I got in if our votes were needed. Those deals were a tribute to the man. You knew that he was a gentleman and that if a deal were reached, it would be stuck to. He was a man of his word in everything that he did, and, in that respect, we have lost a great presence in the Chamber as well as elsewhere. On behalf of the Alliance Party, I extend our sympathy to his children, his family circle and, in this place, his colleagues in the SDLP.

John McCallister (UUP, South Down)

I join colleagues in paying tribute to Eddie McGrady. I first met Eddie when I was a farmer who needed help with a grant application about 20 years ago. Needless to say, Eddie sorted it our very satisfactorily indeed, and I am grateful to him. I got to know him significantly better when I was elected to the House in 2007 and he was still the Member of Parliament for South Down.

No doubt his colleagues in the SDLP will know what a true gentleman Eddie McGrady was, and others have spoken about that. The way in which he represented all the people in South Down was reflected in the enormity of his vote. No doubt the standing of the SDLP in South Down was helped enormously by Eddie and his tireless work for the people in the constituency. His nature was such that so many felt easy in his company and felt him easy to approach to get help with constituency matters and, certainly, easy to support at the ballot box.

He put in, as Mr Nesbitt said, 50 years of service. That is half a century of service. To someone as young as me, that seems like an awfully long time. When you think of how he served in the 60s and 70s on an urban council, then on Down District Council and as a Minister in a power-sharing Executive, you can see that that is tremendous. He did that almost 40 years ago. He also served for 23 years as the Member of Parliament for South Down. That is a huge service to South Down and to Northern Ireland, and it is only fitting that we respect that this morning.

On behalf of NI21 and my party colleague, Basil McCrea, I express our sympathies with the family, the family circle and his party colleagues in the SDLP. I spoke to his dear friend, now our Member of Parliament, Margaret Ritchie, this morning to pass on my thoughts and sympathies. Margaret Ritchie will certainly miss Eddie, as they had a deep friendship for many, many years. We think about Margaret, the family circle and all his colleagues in the SDLP. He was a towering figure in our political life in South Down and across Northern Ireland, and we will miss him very much.

Jim Allister (Traditional Unionist Voice, North Antrim)

I join in expressing condolences to the McGrady family on the loss of Eddie McGrady and to the SDLP on the loss of someone who was so pivotal for so many years in the structures and successes of that party.

My path and that of Eddie McGrady crossed most when I was a Member of the European Parliament. A number of times, we had occasion to discuss fishing issues in particular, because, as Member for South Down, Mr McGrady obviously had an abiding interest in the fishing industry. It was an industry seldom without difficulties to be resolved. I must say that, in all my dealings with him, I found him to be how others have described him today, namely the perfect gentleman. He was always most courteous in his dealings with others, evinced a very deep-seated interest in the needs of his constituents and left undone nothing in that regard that needed to be done.

Although our politics were distinctly different, I found it gratifying to have a good working relationship with Eddie McGrady, as the MP for South Down, particularly on those fishing issues. I left that experience with an enhanced opinion of Eddie McGrady the man. I can well appreciate the loss that will be experienced by those who knew him best. I join very much in adding my sympathy on his passing.

Matter of the Day

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

Cathal Ó hOísin has been given leave to make a statement on the devastation in the Philippines that fulfils the criteria set out in Standing Order 24. If other Members wish to be called, they should continually rise in their place. All Members who speak will have up to three minutes. Members know that no points of order or other issues will be discussed before we conclude this piece of business.

Cathal Ó hOisín (Sinn Féin, East Londonderry)

Go raibh maith agat a Cheann Comhairle, agus gabhaim buíochas leat as an tseans a bheith ag plé leis an ábhar tábhachtach seo. Thank you very much, Mr Speaker, for accepting this Matter of the Day.

I do not think that anybody could fail to have been affected by the television pictures that have been coming through from the Philippines during the current disaster. The situation is ongoing and threatens to get worse over the next number of days and weeks. When it comes to some of these national disasters, the unfortunate thing is the roll-out in which the rescue services and aid can reach the affected areas. We have seen that during hurricane Katrina, the south-east Asian tsunami and, a couple of years ago, during the Haiti earthquake. That is a challenge that faces us all, and that challenge will face us now in the Philippines.

Irish people have a very close association with the Philippines. Many of those involved in our care homes and our hospitals are from there. They are hard-working and diligent people. Indeed, our system depends very much on their contribution. They work hard here to send money home and to keep their families there, and I think that we have a natural affiliation with the people in the Philippines.

I will go back to my issue about aid. I believe that it is incumbent on places such as the Assembly, our councils and elsewhere to put together some type of prime funding that might be able to be accessed more quickly and immediately in the case of natural disasters. We also have the expertise of rescue teams in this part of the world, and we should examine how we pull people together to exercise that when these things happen.

I will put it into context. In one city that is smaller than Belfast, current estimates reckon that there are 10,000 people dead. It is incumbent on us to look at how best we can assist those people and the wider public to assist in the Philippines. I know that a number of motions will come in front of councils this evening, and I hope that they will go through. I also hope that they will receive support from this House.

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

I had the opportunity yesterday of visiting people in the Ulster Hospital who are over here from the Philippines and talking to them about the devastation that has taken place in their country. Some of them have had homes affected, and staff in the health service have lost loved ones. It is very important that we support the people from the Philippines at this time. We have found that they have been of huge support to us. Our nursing officers travelled to the Philippines in and around 2000 because there was a shortage of nurses at that point. Those people have admirably filled the gap over the years, and many of them have chosen to stay in Northern Ireland because of the welcome that they found. It is important that we provide them with the care, support and duty of care that the service has to its staff. That will happen through giving appropriate time off, counselling support and other support that can be given. I know that the staff will also rally round their colleagues, whom they greatly appreciate. The Filipino people have a very caring attitude; it is incumbent on us to demonstrate the caring attitude towards them that they have demonstrated towards our people, whom they have supported in the health service.

Alban Maginness (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast North)

I am grateful to Cathal Ó hOisín for raising the issue. The Filipino community has contributed much to us. Its care and its sensitivity, particularly to those who are ill or aged and infirm, has become legendary in our community. There are many Filipino people living in the constituency of North Belfast. I have engaged with them on many occasions and have always found them to be a friendly, hard-working and long-suffering people, because this natural calamity is not new to the Philippines. They suffer most dreadful climatic changes and, as a result, similar disasters have occurred in the past, but this one is particularly difficult. Some 10,000 people have lost their life. In Ireland, in the North of Ireland, we should respond generously to any appeal that will be made by the Filipino community here, whether it be for money, materials or some other sort of support, we should give it because they have served us, and we, in their distress, should serve them.

Mike Nesbitt (UUP, Strangford)

I thank the Member for bringing the matter to the House. As in any political institution on planet Earth, this is a moment to break from the daily focus on our own issues and to put them into the perspective of what has happened in the Philippines, which is on a scale even greater than the Christmas tsunami of a few years ago. The scale of the death and destruction, particularly the number of young people who have lost their life, is absolutely horrific.

It is the way of Northern Ireland that we are connected. Philippine nationals work here in Northern Ireland, and there will, undoubtedly, be Northern Irish people working in the Philippines. I know that there is a tendency — it is not the greatest tendency of human nature — to sometimes put a value on life depending on how far it is from where we are and to believe that lives and their value lessen the further away the incident is from our focus of attention. However, this is a moment, I suggest, to focus on our common humanity and a time to rally round, because the survivors have certainly survived the incident, but now they face an equally fatal threat of disease, not least because of the shortage of clean drinking water and other issues. This is a moment for all of us, in common humanity, to do what we can for the survivors.

Chris Lyttle (Alliance, Belfast East)

I am grateful for the opportunity to speak on the issue. It puts the challenges that we face in the House into stark perspective. We have heard that typhoon Yolanda has claimed 10,000 lives and displaced some 600,000 people. It is my understanding that the UN has launched an appeal. The UN Under-Secretary General for Humanitarian Affairs has said that people in the Philippines are absolutely desperate and there is no food or water in many areas. As an MLA for the constituency of East Belfast, I know that there are many people from a Filipino background working in our emergency services and serving our community. Our thoughts and prayers go out to all those people today.

It is my understanding that the UK Disasters Emergency Committee, bringing a number of charities together, will launch an appeal on television this evening. People can donate via dec.org.uk or by texting "DONATE" to 70000. I welcome the fact that the Prime Minister has announced an increase in aid to the area. I join Members in extending the support of the Alliance Party.

John McCallister (UUP, South Down)

When you hear the numbers and try to get some sense of the scale of the tragedy and disaster, you know that the impact that it will have on the country is overwhelming. I have already been in contact with constituents of mine who have family who are affected. They are struggling to get in contact and to know what they can do from here and whether their loved ones are even safe. That is a very difficult situation for any family to be in. As colleagues have said, that is a very difficult situation to face.

I am encouraged that our national Government are at least responding and that the Disasters Emergency Committee has set up a fund, because people can do something practical by giving and helping to support that. A mammoth effort is required, not just regionally, nationally and on a European level but throughout the world, to help out the people who are so badly affected in the Philippines. I am pleased that here we are all keen and willing to support that and to play whatever small part we can in that, Mr Speaker.

Ministerial Statement

Martin McGuinness (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

Go raibh maith agat, Mr Speaker. In compliance with section 52C(2) of the Northern Ireland Act 1998, we wish to make the following statement on the seventeenth meeting of the North/South Ministerial Council (NSMC) in plenary format, which was held in Armagh on Friday 8 November 2013. The Executive Ministers who attended the meeting have agreed that we can make this report on their behalf.

Our delegation was led by the First Minister, Peter Robinson MLA, and me. In addition, the following Executive Ministers were in attendance: Minister Durkan, Minister Farry, Minister Foster, Minister Hamilton, Minister Kennedy, Minister McCausland, Minister Ní Chuilín, Minister O’Dowd, Minister O’Neill, and junior Minister McCann. The Irish Government delegation was led by the Taoiseach, Enda Kenny, and the following Irish Government Ministers also attended: Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade, Eamon Gilmore, Minister Noonan, Minister Quinn, Minister Howlin, Minister Bruton, Minister Deenihan, Minister Rabbitte, Minister Coveney, Minister Fitzgerald, Minister Varadkar and Minister of State O’Dowd.

(Mr Deputy Speaker [Mr Beggs] in the Chair)

Our meeting in Armagh was very positive and constructive, and it provided a valuable opportunity for us to focus on some of the key challenges that we face. Last week’s meeting came a few short weeks after the very successful investment conference in Belfast and the Global Irish Economic Forum. The Council recognised the value of both events, and I have no doubt that they will provide an important platform on which to build economic growth and prosperity.

Obviously, because of the challenging times that we live in, much of the focus of the plenary was on our shared economic challenges. In a broad-ranging discussion, the Council welcomed the fact that some signs of recovery had been apparent over the last number of months. The Council was advised that the Irish Government is on track to exit the EU/International Monetary Fund bailout by the end of the year. The various actions being undertaken by each Administration to help support the economic recovery were explored, and the importance of attracting foreign direct investment and ensuring adequate access to credit within the banking sector in each jurisdiction was recognised.

Both Administrations recognise the value of international trade and have a series of trade visits planned to attract additional investment. The Council also recognised the role that cross-border trade can have in helping local companies grow their markets. InterTradeIreland’s recent report highlights the fact that, for many companies wishing to export goods, experience in cross-border trade is a valuable stepping stone and can be a significant influence on the development of additional export markets.

In recent weeks, there has been much discussion about the role of banks. The Council welcomed the role of the National Asset Management Agency (NAMA) in making lending available to develop assets across the island. Ministers were advised that disposal of assets from NAMA would be handled sensitively, with a view to supporting the economic recovery in both jurisdictions.

Tourism has an important role in growing our economy. At the meeting, the contribution of the tourism industry was recognised. In particular, Ministers acknowledged the success of initiatives such as "The Gathering" and the City of Culture celebrations which have been taking place in my home city over the last year. We must build on those successes, and Ministers looked forward to the hosting, next year, of the Giro d’Italia, which will have a cross-border element, as cyclists travel from Armagh to Dublin. The race provides a real opportunity to work together to maximise tourism benefit.

Growing our economy is an important priority, but it is also important that all levels of society benefit from that. In this context, the progress made to date under the Building a Prosperous and United Community economic package was discussed, and Ministers reaffirmed their commitment to the package.

As we move forward, we must continue to support and build our communities. Of relevance to this important work was a conference exploring the role of sport in reconciliation, which some Ministers attended in Armagh last Friday before the meeting. At the plenary, Ministers endorsed the collaboration between sporting organisations across the island to tackle racism, sectarianism and division.

We also took the opportunity to discuss the importance of European funding to both jurisdictions, and current collaboration to draw down such funding was welcomed. Further possibilities for collaboration to draw down funding that are mutually beneficial continue to be explored.

The future Peace IV and INTERREG V funding programmes were discussed. Proposals for the structure of the programmes are being developed, and both Administrations look forward to reviewing these.

Ministers remain supportive of the concept of the Narrow Water bridge and have asked for urgent analysis of the issues involved. They remain conscious that the priority is not to lose the EU funding involved.

Youth unemployment continues to be of concern to both Administrations. Following our discussion at the last NSMC plenary meeting in Dublin, we received a further update on that important topic. The Council was briefed on the levels of youth unemployment in both jurisdictions, discussed the European Union's youth guarantee and agreed that, where possible, both jurisdictions should collaborate to tackle the issue. The Council also welcomed the ongoing collaboration between the Department for Employment and Learning and the Department of Social Protection to tackle youth unemployment. The NSMC will receive a further update on the issue at a future meeting.

The North/South Ministerial Council joint secretaries provided us with a comprehensive report on the work that has been ongoing in the Council since the previous plenary meeting in July. Ministers welcomed the following key developments. The business planning process for the establishment of a new radiotherapy unit at Altnagelvin Area Hospital is progressing on time, with construction due to commence in spring 2014 and completion scheduled for summer 2016. Progress continues to be made on the agreed work programme on child protection. The programme, which was agreed in July 2012, promotes shared learning, contributes further to improving practice in specific areas of safeguarding and child protection and focuses on five work streams.

There is continued progress on the common agriculture policy following the political agreement reached between the European Council and the European Parliament on the Multiannual Financial Framework and between the EU Council of Ministers and the European Parliament on CAP reform. There is successful high-level engagement between officials in the two Education Departments. Progress will be reported to a future NSMC meeting on agreed cooperation in the educational underperformance and good school leadership work streams.

The terms of reference for an all-island research study into the airborne pollution from residential smoky coal combustion has been approved. Both jurisdictions continue to share knowledge and experience in the delivery of road safety strategies and measures to further reduce road casualties.

In December 2013, InterTradeIreland will launch a free, multiplatform app for Horizon 2020. The app provides a centralised online portal of key information and allows users to communicate with one other instantly, as well as facilitating partner searching and promoting opportunities to get involved in existing project consortiums.

Development on post-2013 territorial cooperation EU programmes is progressing. It is intended that operational programmes for Peace and INTERREG will be presented to the Executive, the Irish Government and the Scottish Government — for INTERREG V only — during 2013, with formal submission to the European Commission following the agreement of the relevant Governments.

A major new campaign that focuses on childhood obesity was launched by Safefood in October 2013. The campaign focuses on helping parents to tackle the everyday habits associated with excess weight in childhood and maintaining awareness of the health challenges posed by excess weight.

The Loughs Agency partnered Tate Britain to supply oysters harvested in Lough Foyle at the Turner Prize events in Derry, including the event launch, which over 1,000 guests attended.

Foras na Gaeilge is proceeding with implementation of the new core funding arrangements with effect from 1 July 2014, in line with the NSMC decision on 10 July 2013. The two agencies of the language body continue to collaborate on governance and promotional issues and the delivery of a joint programme of activities to mark the 400th anniversary of plantation charters.

The new chief executive of Waterways Ireland, Ms Dawn Livingstone, took up her position on 29 July 2013. Development work on the Ulster Canal is progressing incrementally. All planning approvals have now been obtained from Cavan County Council, Clones Town Council, Fermanagh District Council and the Planning Service. The interagency group is exploring funding options.

The final aspect of the joint secretaries’ report was the progress on the improved tourist visitor numbers to date in 2013 and the launch of the £15·7 million Tourism Ireland autumn promotional campaign in September 2013. The September–December period traditionally yields as much as 30% of overseas tourism business.

Ministers also acknowledged the ongoing work on the reform of the North/South bodies' pension scheme.

On the St Andrews Agreement review, the Council agreed, following discussion, that Ministers would consider their priorities in their respective sectoral areas. The outcome of this exercise will be considered at a future NSMC institutional meeting as part of the ongoing review.

We had a useful discussion on the north-west gateway initiative, which is being reviewed. Ministers look forward to receiving a report on the outcome of the ongoing stakeholder consultation exercise at a future NSMC institutional meeting.

Ministers agreed to review the North/South consultative forum at a future NSMC plenary meeting.

Finally, the Council approved a schedule of NSMC meetings that were proposed by the joint secretariat, including an NSMC plenary meeting in June 2014.

Mike Nesbitt (UUP, Strangford)

I thank the deputy First Minister for his statement. My question relates to youth employment. The deputy First Minister is probably aware that the World Health Organization recently said that the issue of people not in education, employment or training (NEETs) is a time bomb waiting to explode. I ask the deputy First Minister to put himself in the shoes of someone who is not in education, employment or training. What comfort would he take from the words of his statement and from the fact that:

"Youth unemployment continues to be of concern"?

He said that, following a discussion at the last meeting, there was another discussion about the issue and that this time they discussed the European Union's youth guarantee and agreed that it was a good thing that they should work on if at all possible. If you were a 17-year-old not in education, employment or training, what comfort would you take from those words?

Martin McGuinness (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

Obviously, we are all very conscious here of the unacceptable rates of youth unemployment. This is sadly a feature of life, particularly during what has been a world economic crisis, throughout western Europe over the past number of years. The youth unemployment rates in places such as Greece, Portugal and Spain are through the roof. That said, the unacceptable rates that we have to deal with here have to be tackled. Work is ongoing on our Together: Building a United Community project, and officials are engaged in its design and the need to ensure that it is implemented at the beginning of next year. That will bear down on the NEETs challenges that we face.

In the European context, the current Peace III and INTERREG IVa programmes do not have specific priorities that focus on youth unemployment. The focus and priorities of future EU programmes will be developed, based on the identified needs of the eligible areas. No decisions on the content of a future Peace IV programme, for example, have been taken. However, actions to address training, education and employment will be priority considerations. The development of Peace IV followed an initial public consultation in autumn 2012, the results of which suggest that the new programme should have a particular focus on young people and on providing assistance, youth activities and education for economically excluded young people.

The economic pact provides for an additional £50 million to Peace IV, which is linked, as I said, to an Executive commitment to seek to use it in support of the united youth programme in our Together: Building a United Community project.

Stephen Moutray (DUP, Upper Bann)

I thank the deputy First Minister for his statement. With regard to the Narrow Water bridge project, can he confirm that the Special EU Programmes Body (SEUPB) will be in a position to reallocate funding to other projects so that they can progress at this time?

Martin McGuinness (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

Obviously, that was discussed during the event in Armagh. In the communiqué that followed the meeting, North/South Ministerial Council Ministers clearly expressed their ongoing support for the project. I remain fully supportive of the Narrow Water bridge project. I met the chambers of commerce in the area before the tender costs were announced, and they have briefed me on the very positive business and economic potential for the area if the bridge is built.

The SEUPB, the local councils and the Departments of Finance, North and South, should, I think, put together a proposal on the project for consideration by the Executive and the Government in Dublin, including all the available business cases and economic appraisals. I shall be meeting the local chambers of commerce and councils over the next week to get an update on the current situation from their point of view.

Caitriona Ruane (Sinn Féin, South Down)

Go raibh maith agat agus go raibh maith agat don LeasChéad-Aire as an ráiteas sin. I welcome the statement from the deputy First Minister. Does he agree that the Narrow Water bridge project is a very good project for everyone in the Louth/Down area, that the chambers of commerce are representing every single community — Kilkeel, Warrenpoint and Rostrevor — and that the project went through a very rigorous process in relation to the SEUPB and came out at the top of the competitive process?

Martin McGuinness (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

As I said, during the discussion that we had on Friday in Armagh, the communiqué made it absolutely clear that Ministers, North and South, are very supportive of the project. Obviously, it has had problems during the past number of months, but, of course, we all have to be problem solvers. Given that we are, in principle, very much in favour of the project, the effort now over the next short while, in conjunction with the SEUPB and all the stakeholders who have a very keen interest in what is a very important project for the area, is to focus attention on how to bring it to fruition.

Alex Attwood (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast West)

I want to ask the deputy First Minister about the St Andrews review. Are you not concerned that, six or seven years after the review was first commissioned, it has yet to conclude? Are you not concerned that when a commitment was entered into at the last NSMC that a report would be brought forward to this NSMC that that did not happen? Are you not also concerned —

Roy Beggs (UUP, East Antrim)

I think that the Member has asked two questions so far.

Alex Attwood (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast West)

— that what we are now seeing is what the First Minister —

Roy Beggs (UUP, East Antrim)

Minister.

Alex Attwood (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast West)

— has declared to be his view of North/South, reducing it to a letter, a phone call or a meeting?

Martin McGuinness (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

We are very pleased to note that the part of the review relating to the recommendations specific to the North/South bodies is now effectively complete, subject to any further discussion at NSMC sectoral meetings.

The respective Finance Departments have concluded that the provision of Enterprise-scale shared services within the bodies is not feasible due to a lack of scale. However, they have recommended that the bodies should continue to share knowledge and expertise where it is beneficial to do so.

Work by the Finance Departments on the review of the financial memoranda is at an advanced stage. It is the aim of the Finance Departments to have the review completed by March 2014. With regard to terms of reference two and three, following discussions, the Council agreed that Ministers should consider their priorities in their respective sectoral areas. The outcome of that exercise will be considered at a future NSMC institutional meeting as part of the ongoing review.

At the meeting on Friday, a very clear signal was sent by both sides to the discussions that Ministers and Departments should accelerate and increase the level of contact between the Departments. That is something that everybody has signed up for, and I expect that there will be an acceleration and increased engagement between Departments to see what more can be done. Obviously, as the Member well knows, taking forward those matters has to be subject to agreement by all sides.

Chris Lyttle (Alliance, Belfast East)

I thank the deputy First Minister for his statement. He might be aware that a wide range of victims and survivors of loyalist, republican and state violence in Northern Ireland gathered in the Assembly yesterday to state clearly their view that they have been failed by this Executive in their calls for truth and accountability. Did the deputy First Minister and the First Minister take the opportunity to discuss how the Northern Ireland Executive and the Irish Government could work together to deliver a comprehensive, victim-centred process on dealing with the past, and if so, what specific ideas were considered?

Martin McGuinness (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

As the Member has heard me and others say ad nauseam over the past 15 years, one of the greatest flaws in the peace process has been the approach to the past, of which there are many narratives. There is a huge responsibility on all of us to deal with that. That is why we agreed, and I am very pleased that the Member's party was part of that agreement, to ask a highly esteemed diplomat from the United States, Richard Haass, to chair multiparty talks. He, supported by Meghan O'Sullivan, has been involved in a wide-ranging engagement, and he has been talking not just to the parties but to the Irish and British Governments. We are all aware that the United States Government, through Vice-President Joe Biden, to whom the First Minister and I spoke in the aftermath of the appointment of Richard Haass, are taking a very keen interest in this work. I have to hope, along with all others in the process, that we will see a resolution to the issues of flags and parades and that a way forward will be found on how we support victims.

Yes, I think that all of us need to hold our hands up. This has been a signal failure over the past 15 years. However, I hope that it is a failure that can be corrected over the next months, particularly if we can find a way forward before Christmas, in conjunction with the other challenges that Richard Haass faces. We have a duty and a responsibility to find that way forward. It will be very difficult, because there are different analyses and narratives about the past.

Jimmy Spratt (DUP, Belfast South)

I note from the statement that there were discussions on European funding and collaboration between both jurisdictions. Can the deputy First Minister tell us whether the Trans-European Transport Network (TEN-T) funding was raised when discussing transport issues? What is the possibility of substantial amounts of money being made available through that funding?

Martin McGuinness (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

Those are part of ongoing discussions that officials are involved in. Of course, transport was a subject for discussion during the NSMC meeting. We are consistently looking for opportunities to draw down extra funding from Europe, and the targets that we set to increase funding by 20% are well on their way to being reached, specifically on how we can utilise whatever other opportunities are presented on the issue of transport and ensuring an easier way for transport to move around. Those discussions are continuing.

Rosaleen McCorley (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. Mo bhuíochas leis an LeasChéad-Aire as a ráiteas agus as a fhreagraí go dtí seo. Can the Minister give us an update on the review of the St Andrews Agreement?

Martin McGuinness (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

In answer to the question raised by Alex Attwood, I made it absolutely clear that it is still a work in progress. I understand that some people might not be satisfied with the answer that has been presented, but, as always, Members will appreciate and understand that taking these matters forward is a matter for all-round agreement. We are consistently working to see the situation progressed. I think that the commitment that was made during the meeting to increase contact, Department by Department, and to liberate Departments to do more was a very progressive development. It was quite interesting that, during the press conference in the aftermath of the NSMC plenary meeting, the Taoiseach declared that, from his perspective, it was the best North/South Ministerial Council meeting that he had attended.

George Robinson (DUP, East Londonderry)

What comparisons have been made between the output of the Northern Ireland economy and that of the Republic of Ireland economy?

Martin McGuinness (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

During the meeting, we obviously had the opportunity to talk about the challenges that both of us face. Some of those challenges are different. The Government in the South have been dealing with specific economic challenges over the past while, but they indicated at the meeting that they hope to see an improvement. Similarly, in the past number of days, those who analyse the situation here have provided further positive reports of an upturn in our fortunes. I am always very reluctant to talk about green shoots; people who have done that before did so to their cost. However, I think that there is some sense that things are beginning to be on the up. Even our reports over the past eight months on the reduction in the number of people who are on the unemployment register indicate that we are continuing to go in a positive direction. Alongside that, we obviously need to support our local entrepreneurs, who have been stalwarts over a very difficult period for our economy in recent times.

One area where there appears to be commonality is that, in the past short while, the Irish Government have been able to record important increases in foreign direct investment into the South. That actually corresponds with some very positive job announcements here in the North as well. Of course, the economic investment conference that the First Minister and I attended, and which the Prime Minister came to, was the best of the three such economic investment conferences that we have attended. So, there is considerable hope for the economy and considerable hope that foreign direct investment will continue to increase, North and South, which is good for all of us.

Cathal Ó hOisín (Sinn Féin, East Londonderry)

Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle, agus gabhaim buíochas leis an LeasChéad-Aire as an ráiteas sin agus na freagraí go dtí an póinte seo.

Will the deputy First Minister provide a further update on the north-west gateway initiative and, indeed, the City of Culture in Derry?

Martin McGuinness (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

Obviously, everybody is aware that the City of Culture year has been a huge success. We had a discussion on the north-west gateway initiative. At the meeting, we noted that the consultation with stakeholders on the north-west gateway initiative has been proceeding, and we look forward to receipt of a report on the findings of that consultation at the next NSMC institutional meeting.

Where moving forward with investment in the north-west is concerned, over the past number of years, there has been major investment in the region, and more is planned. The investment shows that we are committed to the north-west gateway initiatives. Key examples include the Peace Bridge, which has made an enormous difference to the city of Derry; the regeneration of Ebrington and Fort George, which are very powerful and positive developments; hosting the City of Culture celebrations; Project Kelvin; and the multimillion pound project to build the radiotherapy centre at Altnagelvin. We also discussed some of the major activities that are taking place in the north-west.

We are now in the last quarter of the City of Culture year, with major community events well under way. As a city with significant deprivation, Derry is harnessing the opportunity of much-needed investment to build on its strengths. What are those strengths? They are local people, music, heritage and digital technology, which all showcase the city to an international audience.

We are committed to ensuring that community-based activities are central, not just in 2013 but as part of a long-term legacy from the City of Culture. Although the following projects receive less national and international coverage, the Music Promise, Portrait of a City and local community cultural strategies are focused on delivering skills and opportunities. DCAL officials are engaged with Derry City Council and partners in the city to develop legacy plans that will help to achieve agreed targets up to 2020 and beyond. We do not view 2013 as a one-off but as the start of a long-term upward trend for the city, and it is vital that we ensure there is that momentum.

Joe Byrne (Social Democratic and Labour Party, West Tyrone)

I thank the deputy First Minister for his report. In relation to promoting cross-border trade by InterTradeIreland, was the thorny issue of Strathroy Dairy's difficulties in marketing its milk products in the Republic addressed by our Minister, and does the deputy First Minister agree that the issue needs to be resolved to make sure that we promote more cross-border trade in general?

Martin McGuinness (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

We certainly had a discussion on the National Dairy Council (NDC) campaign at the meeting, and the Irish Government listened very carefully to what we had to say. We expressed our concerns that the National Dairy Council campaign is an abuse of country of origin labelling. The Minister of Enterprise, Trade and Investment raised that issue with the Irish Competition Authority and with Irish Government counterparts, and she has also brought the campaign to the attention of the European Commission. We are also concerned that the NDC campaign contravenes the principles of the single market. It discriminates against consumers who are being denied the additional choice and benefits of market dynamics that come from the North and that would be provided by the North. The Minister of Enterprise, Trade and Investment has received feedback from our dairy processing industry about the adverse impact that the NDC campaign is having on local businesses, and we are aware that the Dairy Council is threatening to take action in the European courts to stop the NDC campaign. It was discussed, and we are very concerned.

Sandra Overend (UUP, Mid Ulster)

I thank the Minister for his statement. Ensuring adequate access to finance was discussed at the meeting. How is the deputy First Minister making progress on that issue in Northern Ireland?

Martin McGuinness (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

Access to finance is obviously of huge importance, and the whole issue of the responsibility of the banks to support businesses is an ongoing feature of our discussions, North and South. We all face similar problems, and both jurisdictions highlighted the availability of credit as important to support economic recovery. The banks' position is that demand for credit is low and that this is the main reason why lending is following. The data support that but only to a degree. However, they must be tested on that, and the Finance Minister's message to the business community is that anyone putting off applying for credit should step forward and, if they get turned down, should appeal. We also have no doubt that the costs and conditions attached to credit are contributory factors, and banks need to treat businesses reasonably. We strongly believe that it is acting as a constraint to our economic recovery, and it really is a matter that has to be addressed.

There will be a number of key actions this autumn to tackle issues relating to banks, and the economic pact's joint ministerial task force will hopefully give some focus to that work. Good progress was made at its first meeting. The Finance Minister has also recently met the Secretary of State, the British Bankers' Association and the Irish Finance Minister to discuss those issues. The Minister of Enterprise, Trade and Investment and the Minister of Finance and Personnel have established an access-to-finance implementation panel on banking to work with us, the banks and the business bodies to progress the issues associated with access to finance that we have identified. That panel will bring independent eyes to what we think is important work. We will continue to press the banks.

John McCallister (UUP, South Down)

Paragraph 14 of the deputy First Minister's statement mentions the progress to date on 'Building a Prosperous and United Community'. Could he detail what he feels that progress is?

Martin McGuinness (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

The Member will be aware that we outlined for public consumption the very extensive projects that are included in the Together: Building a United Community strategy. We recognise that there is a wide range of issues to be dealt with in supporting the community and breaking down barriers. Obviously, the recent news about a new barrier going up in east Belfast is not good news, particularly in the context of our stated aim of bringing down the walls in Belfast over the next 10 years. However, I think that that is still an achievable, viable goal. As I mentioned in a previous answer, the challenges involved in finding employment for something like 10,000 young people is also hugely significant and important work. The whole issue of shared education is also important. We have seen that take a significant step forward, with the project in Lisanelly now beginning to take shape. Six schools in the Omagh area have now signed up to the whole concept of a shared education campus. I know that the Education Minister has big plans for other areas and that other areas are now focused on the prospect that they can avail themselves of support. There is also support for local communities with regard to urban centres.

A wide range of issues are outlined in the document, and I have no doubt whatsoever that the economic pact that we made with David Cameron, in conjunction with our Together: Building a United Community strategy, will have a dramatic effect as it rolls out. At the moment, it is all in its infancy. For many, it is still in the design stage. However, it is on course to make a real impact within the community.

Sydney Anderson (DUP, Upper Bann)

I thank the deputy First Minister for his statement. I note that reference is made to the North/South Consultative Forum. In light of there being no Civic Forum in Northern Ireland, and no prospect of such a forum meeting, does the deputy First Minister accept that there is no prospect of the creation of a North/South Consultative Forum?

Martin McGuinness (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

Every Member will be aware that the only way that we can progress these issues is by taking a united and agreed approach to them. There is no point in my airing the differing views that there are about this. Some people consider that, although the Civic Forum first happened in the early days of this Assembly, life has changed considerably since then, particularly with the influx of all sorts of other people who have come to our shores to seek a new life for themselves. We have a large representation of ethnic communities in the North. Many Members of the House are supportive of a Civic Forum and many are not. The North/South Consultative Forum is obviously affected by that. Until such times as we can get agreement, we are going to have to continue to make the case for it in the hope that, at some stage in the future, people will agree that it is a sensible way forward.

Seán Rogers (Social Democratic and Labour Party, South Down)

I thank the deputy First Minister for his answers so far. In this statement, there is a strong emphasis on economic recovery. Obviously, the Narrow Water Bridge project is something that will unlock the tourist potential and, indeed, the economic recovery of the south Down area. In answer to a question yesterday on the Narrow Water Bridge project, Mrs Foster said that the issues lay with the Department for Regional Development (DRD) and the Department of Finance and Personnel (DFP). Considering that the Regional Development and Finance Ministers were at the Council meeting, is there any need for further analysis of issues? Do we not need to get to a commitment of funds to the Narrow Water Bridge project?

Martin McGuinness (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

The Member knows that there was a very strong commitment from our Administration. There was also a strong commitment from Dublin. What created the difficulties were circumstances totally and absolutely outside our control. That has left us in a new situation, where proper protocols have to be applied. The important thing is that there is still a commitment to the project. The challenge is to see whether we can, in spite of the difficulties that we have faced over the course of the past number of months due to circumstances outside our control, see the project come to fruition. All the Ministers are very supportive of it, but we have to abide by the rules and regulations. We also have the SEUPB, councils on both sides of the border and the Irish Government involved with us. I hope that, in the course of the next while, a real effort will be made to analyse what happened and how that can be fixed.

John Dallat (Social Democratic and Labour Party, East Londonderry)

I thank the deputy First Minister for his statement. I note that we have been harvesting oysters in Lough Foyle on a cross-border basis. I wonder whether anyone noticed that the Lough Foyle ferry service has disappeared after carrying up to two million passengers. Surely there must be food for thought somewhere that that ferry service in the north-west is as vital as the one in Strangford? Will the deputy First Minister cancel the notion that we are in a North Korea/South Korea situation?

Martin McGuinness (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

Whenever circumstances, which are normally financial, impinge on important services for local communities, that can be a huge disappointment for people in County Donegal and County Derry. The challenge, as always, is to continually look at what more can be done. There are obviously important restrictions on how projects like that can be supported, through financial input and commitments. That said, if a service is being provided that enhances the tourist potential in the area, there is a challenge for Dublin and for us to look at whether the service can be restored. There have been other discussions, particularly in the past, around the connection between north Antrim and Scotland. I had high hopes that, when we had discussions on that in the past, we would have a necklace of support, from the likes of Scotland through to north Antrim, County Derry and on through to County Donegal. The problems are mainly financial. I think that we can explore whether more can be done to restore the service. I say that without having had any discussions with any of the Ministers who might be directly involved, but I undertake to do that.

Jim Allister (Traditional Unionist Voice, North Antrim)

Since the plenary meeting in July, we have had the First Minister's wise and joyous U-turn on the Maze project, which has led to the halting of the peace and reconciliation centre. Was that discussed at the plenary session, or is that such a non-issue that it did not merit being discussed?

Martin McGuinness (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

The peace-building and conflict resolution centre is a matter for the Executive and the Assembly. It is not a subject for discussion at the NSMC. It is more a matter between us and Europe.

Executive Committee Business

Jonathan Bell (DUP, Strangford)

I beg to move

That this Assembly endorses the principle of the extension of the Freedom of Information provisions in the UK Intellectual Property Bill on the protection of pre-publication research to Northern Ireland.

The Intellectual Property Bill was introduced to the House of Lords on 9 May 2013. It contains a freedom of information provision in Part 3 that requires a legislative consent motion if it is to extend to Northern Ireland.

The new provision emerged from the post-legislative scrutiny of the Freedom of Information Act 2000 that was carried out by Westminster's Justice Select Committee in 2012. This article protects research information held by public authorities that are subject to the Act, but, other than in Scotland, there is no dedicated exemption for information created during a programme of research. The Bill introduces a new exemption into the Freedom of Information Act to protect continuing programmes of research intended for future publication by public authorities. This will achieve parity with Scotland. The new exemption was recommended by the Westminster Justice Committee following representations made to it by the higher education sector. The coalition Government, in their response, accepted the need for a dedicated research exemption to ensure that public research bodies, including universities and colleges, would be able to protect their research findings prior to publication.

As well as providing public sector researchers with additional reassurance that their sensitive research information would not be exposed to premature release, the new exemption provides them with the opportunity to validate and analyse their research results before putting them into the public domain or before any related patent application has been filed. Indeed, the Intellectual Property Bill was chosen as the legislative vehicle for the new exemption because it relates closely to intellectual property, especially in its protection.

In detail, clause 20 of the Bill inserts a new exemption into the Freedom of Information Act 2000 for continuing programmes of research intended for future publication. The Freedom of Information Act section 22(a) exemption that will be created is a prejudice-based exemption, which means that there must be a likelihood that disclosure of information would cause prejudice to research interests. If harm or prejudice can be established, the exemption is engaged. Prejudice-based exemptions are also qualified exemptions, which means that a public interest test must be carried out. Therefore, although the aim of the provision is to protect research at a key stage, openness and transparency are safeguarded by the requirement to conduct prejudice and public interest tests. These tests will ensure that research bodies have a sound and rational case for withholding information.

Clause 20 has an almost identically corresponding section in the Scottish Act, with two minor differences. The Freedom of Information Act section 22(a) exemption will require the exemption to be engaged if the information will or is likely to cause prejudice, rather than "substantial prejudice", as in the Scottish Act. Section 22(a) will allow public authorities, under certain circumstances, neither to confirm nor deny that they hold the requested information, unlike the Scottish Act. These differences will ensure that section 22(a) is in keeping with the wording of our Freedom of Information Act while providing parity with the Scottish Act in the protection of pre-publication research.

Coalition Ministers fully consulted the First Minister and deputy First Minister on the proposed amendment to the Freedom of Information Act. As the provisions are of particular interest to the Department for Employment and Learning, the parent Department for the higher education sector, OFMDFM officials consulted colleagues in that Department. No issues were raised. Furthermore, the Assembly's Committee for the Office of the First Minister and deputy First Minister was briefed on the new exemption, and its support was obtained.

I hope that I have sufficiently outlined the nature and scope of the provisions requiring the consent of the Assembly, and I commend the motion to the House.

Mike Nesbitt (UUP, Strangford)

The Committee for the Office of the First Minister and deputy First Minister, at its meeting on 9 October 2013, was briefed by departmental officials on the freedom of information provisions contained in the UK Intellectual Property Bill. Officials advised members that clause 20 of the Bill created a pre-publication exemption that will bring the Freedom of Information Act 2000 into line with the equivalent Scottish legislation. The exemption will provide assurance to the higher education sector that sensitive research information will not be subject to early release. During the briefing, the Committee sought clarification that further education colleges would also be covered by the exemption. The Committee also requested examples of when the exemption could be used.

On Thursday 10 October, the Department responded to advise that further education colleges would be covered by the exemption. The Department also provided the Committee with further information on examples of when the exemption had been used in Scotland. However, the Department had to highlight that the exemption had not yet been tested in Scotland with the Scottish Information Commissioner and, therefore, it was not possible to be categoric as to whether the exemption was applied correctly or would have been upheld. That said, the Committee was content with the responses from the Department and went on, at its meeting on 16 October 2013, to agree that it was content to support the legislative consent motion.

Jennifer McCann (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

I appreciate the cooperation of Executive Ministers and the OFMDFM Committee's prompt consideration of the issue. I would also like to thank the Member for his contribution. The freedom of information provisions in the Intellectual Property Bill seek to provide the higher education sector with additional reassurance that its sensitive research information will not be exposed to premature release. With your support, a consistent approach to the use of the exemption is achievable. I commend the motion to the Assembly.

Question put and agreed to.

Resolved:

That this Assembly endorses the principle of the extension of the Freedom of Information provisions in the UK Intellectual Property Bill on the protection of pre-publication research to Northern Ireland.

Committee Business

Gerry Kelly (Sinn Féin, Belfast North)

I beg to move

In Standing Order 20A(1) leave out "first" and insert "last".

Go raibh maith agat a LeasCheann Comhairle. On behalf of the Committee on Procedures, I am pleased to bring the motion to the House today. It proposes a single change to Standing Order 20A(1) relating to topical questions.

On 1 July, the Assembly agreed that a facility for asking topical questions of Ministers be introduced, and amendments to Standing Orders were approved. One recommendation included in the Committee’s report on the subject was that a review of the process should be carried out no later than six months after its introduction. The Committee has therefore kept a watching brief on the new process since its introduction in September this year. After two full rounds of questions to Ministers, there is now sufficient data collected to allow the Committee to take an informed interim review and address any urgent issues that have been highlighted.

A number of comments, together with feedback and suggestions on how the topical questions process could be improved, have been received by the Committee. However, although those will be fed into the wider Committee review, one issue seems to have been raised consistently and to be of more immediate concern, and that is the purpose of today’s motion. Comments suggest that a general concern had arisen that topical questions preceding oral questions leads to a risk of Members pre-empting or duplicating an upcoming oral question, which I am sure the Deputy Speaker has witnessed.

Having considered comments and the data available, the Committee on Procedures is of the view that many of the concerns can be addressed by altering the order in which questions are put to each Minister. The motion before the House reflects that view and proposes a simple change to Standing Orders so that topical questions are taken by the Minister during the last 15 minutes of the time allocated for questions for oral answer.

One issue with the motion is that amendments to Standing Orders usually take immediate effect. However, as Question Time has already been scheduled for later today, it may be more practical for any agreed change to be implemented only from 18 November, which is next week.

In conclusion, I remind Members that the proposed change brought to the House in no way affects the wider review that the Committee on Procedures will conduct of the topical questions process, which will, it is hoped, help ensure that topical questions become an even more effective way to challenge and scrutinise Ministers. I commend the motion to the House.

Kieran McCarthy (Alliance, Strangford)

I am happy to row in behind the Chair of the Committee. I support the proposals on the table.

Roy Beggs (UUP, East Antrim)

I call Trevor Clarke to conclude and make a winding-up speech on the motion.

Trevor Clarke (DUP, South Antrim)

I do not think that there is any need to make a winding-up speech, Mr Deputy Speaker, given that only one other Member spoke. However, like others, I know that the issue was brought before the House and that Members were made aware of the process. Members were quick to criticise how that process was rolled out, but they had the opportunity to comment at the outset. The Committee has listened to the concerns raised, and I am sure that we all recognise the problems with having topical questions before Question Time as opposed to after. I commend the amendment to Standing Orders to rectify that wrong.

Roy Beggs (UUP, East Antrim)

I remind Members that the motion requires cross-community support.

Question put and agreed to.

Resolved (with cross-community support):

In Standing Order 20A(1) leave out "first" and insert "last".

Roy Beggs (UUP, East Antrim)

The Business Committee has agreed to allow up to two hours for the debate. The proposer of the motion will have 15 minutes in which to propose and 15 minutes in which to make a winding-up speech. All other Members called to speak will have seven minutes.

Michaela Boyle (Sinn Féin, West Tyrone)

I beg to move

That this Assembly takes note of the following Public Accounts Committee reports:

Committee Reports

Report on the Use of External Consultants by Northern Ireland Departments: Follow-up Report (NIA 43/11-15)

Report on the Uptake of Benefits by Pensioners (NIA 45/11-15)

Report on the Bioscience and Technology Institute (NIA 48/11-15)

Report on the Transfer of Former Military and Security Sites to the Northern Ireland Executive and Ilex Accounts 2010-11 (NIA 58/11-15)

Report on Safeguarding Northern Ireland's Listed Buildings (NIA 64/11-15)

Report on Statements of Rate Levy and Collection 2009-10 and 2010-11 (NIA 88/11-15)

Report on the Northern Ireland Housing Executive: Management of Response Maintenance Contracts (NIA 99/11-15)

Report on the Safety of Services Provided by Health and Social Care Trusts (NIA 102/11-15)

Report on Improving Literacy and Numeracy Achievement in Schools (NIA 116/11-15)

Report on Invest NI: A Performance Review (NIA 109/11-15)

and the following Department of Finance and Personnel Memoranda of Reply:

Report on the Use of External Consultants by Northern Ireland Departments: Follow-up Report

Report on the Uptake of Benefits by Pensioners

Report on the Bioscience and Technology Institute

Report on the Transfer of Former Military and Security Sites to the Northern Ireland Executive and Ilex Accounts 2010-11

Report on Safeguarding Northern Ireland's Listed Buildings

Report on Statements of Rate Levy and Collection 2009-10 and 2010-11

Report on the Northern Ireland Housing Executive: Management of Response Maintenance Contracts

Report on the Safety of Services Provided by Health and Social Care Trusts

Report on Improving Literacy and Numeracy Achievement in Schools

Report on Invest NI: A Performance Review.

Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. It gives me great satisfaction to move the motion today and to take the opportunity to share with you and the House the work of the Public Accounts Committee (PAC). I must recognise the independence and evidence-based work of the Audit Office in giving the Committee a strong base from which to take a bird's-eye view of government.

I have been Committee Chairperson for over a year and a half now. In that time, I have heard the Committee described in many ways as I underwent initiation in the lore of the Public Accounts Committee: it is the watchdog; it is the Rottweiler; it is the guardian of the public purse; it is a paper tiger. I do not know why it is seen as such an animal. It is a media glare and a beacon into dark corners. In ways, it is all those things. The Committee is at its best in a system such as ours, with an independent Audit Office and high standards of stewardship of public money. However, we cannot be complacent. Public financial government is at its most effective when all the participants are thinking, eager and striving for excellence: the auditors, the Committee members, the secretariat, the accounting officers, the civil servants. We can really make a difference if our recommendations are well measured and are implemented properly and promptly. We can really make a difference if public money is spent as carefully and thoughtfully as private money is. We can really make a difference out there if it is all weighed up against waste and lost opportunities.

Although the Committee was very displeased with four memorandums of reply (MORs) some time ago, the standard of response and the level of acceptance of recommendations has been very encouraging over the past year. We will continue to monitor that as measure of the system's effectiveness.

My experience in a rural constituency makes me even more aware of certain realities in the limits of public funding. I live in a valley of winding roads and small settlements, where everyone helps one another, where the unemployment and suicide rates are rising and where local services to support mental health and community resilience are threatened and depleted. In my experience, public money often touches lives by being lacking. So, when I read of fraud —

Roy Beggs (UUP, East Antrim)

Order. There appears to be a mobile phone in the Chamber. Will Members check that their mobile devices are turned off? I invite the Chairperson to continue.

Michaela Boyle (Sinn Féin, West Tyrone)

Go raibh maith agat. When I read of lofty projections and unrealistic business cases of maladministered reform projects and an over-reliance on consultants by public bodies whose culture resists transparency and good governance, I wish desperately for some learning to take place. I cannot help thinking of the benefit that my constituents could get from that public money.

I want to shine a light into the dark corners to reveal what went wrong and what must be learned. I want public services, which touch so many people, to demonstrate care as well as efficiency, and I want Departments to learn. For that reason, I have chosen to speak about patient safety and progress on reducing the Government's reliance on consultants

I wish to refer, first, to the Committee’s follow-up report on the use of external consultants, which was completed in June 2012. The report looked into the use of external consultants in the Civil Service here and at the Department of Finance and Personnel’s (DFP) good practice guidance. The Committee was pleased to find that, in contrast to a previous investigation on the use of external consultants in 2008, there had been a significant reduction in expenditure in this area, from £42 million in 2006-07 to £14 million in 2012, and that the level of compliance with DFP guidelines had improved. However, over a six-year period from 2005-06 to 2010-11, Departments, including agencies, non-departmental public bodies and health trusts, spent more than £150 million on external consultancy. It was also found that there are still many examples of poor practice across the public sector when it comes to recruiting external consultants.

One example was the Account NI consultancy project. That was a reform initiative in the NICS that was devised to introduce a centralised accounts system. The original contract value was £970,000. The final total was £9·6million and, further, it was delivered four years late. That money was spent on external consultancy recruitment. It was clearly a project that had begun to spiral out of control and, in effect, it presented an open chequebook to the external consultants to ensure that the project was completed. That was clearly a financial overrun that was not helped by a distinct lack of competition in the recruitment processes of the consultants. DFP, however, did not accept that it was an overrun. Rather, a representative from that Department said:

"it was an elephant rather than a horse."

This is just one example that shows failings in the Department to implement good practice and to follow appropriate procedures to ensure that value for money was achieved. The Committee found that 40% of contracts ended up costing more than was initially stated. Further contracts were found to have been extended, sometimes repeatedly, which caused great concern to the Committee.

The preparation of robust business cases by Departments is vital when considering contracts to ensure that maximum value can be achieved from the money that is spent. It was shown that DFP has improved in that regard. However, that element was missing from a number of projects, and the poor quality of those that were produced was concerning to the Committee. That was a vital oversight when it came to the recruitment of external consultants and was a key factor in explaining why there was no justification for the way those consultants were recruited. It is of intrinsic importance therefore that DFP and other Departments work on improving that.

Value for money can also be measured through post-project evaluations. The Committee found that there is room for improving the way in which those evaluations operate to enhance the quality of their work and make them more useful to Departments. DFP has been encouraged by virtue of its position to exert its influence on that matter.

The Committee also stressed the fact that single-tender actions should be the exception and not the rule at all times. That should have been the case when it came to external consultant recruitment. The C&AG’s report found that one in five of the contracts it looked at was awarded through a single tender. That should not have happened. The Department failed to ensure that all the necessary steps were taken to ensure that maximum value for money was achieved, and the result was a cost of millions to the public purse.

The Committee recognises that, on some occasions, it is necessary to bring in expertise from outside. The intention of that is not only to bring in specialist skills to assist with projects but to have a transfer of skills from those experts to the permanent staff, which in turn should further reduce the necessity for such vast numbers of external consultants being called upon in future. Projects that require external consultants should be designed to facilitate that. It was found that two thirds of contracts were let without any documented evidence on whether opportunities for skills transfers existed or could be put in place.

The Committee noted that, since the previous hearing on this matter in 2008, there has been a marked improvement in the way that the Department operates when it comes to recruiting external consultants. However, any improvements, while welcome, must be made in the Department to ensure that the greatest value for money is achieved.

The PAC conducted an inquiry into the safety of services provided by our health and social care trusts. That is a very important and emotive topic, as we all expect and deserve health and social care services to be delivered safely. That, however, cannot be guaranteed by the health and social care sector. Indeed, each year, the health and social care trusts report around 83,000 adverse incidents. Those are incidents that could or do result in the harm or even the death of a patient or client. However, that is not the complete story. The Department informed the Committee that under-reporting of incidents continues to be widespread, particularly in the acute sector.

Each year, around 250 adverse incidents are classified as "serious". In almost eight years, up to March 2012, there were 2,084 serious adverse incidents, including 813 deaths in circumstances relating to those incidents. While the deaths may not necessarily be a reflection of issues with the care delivered — for instance, 488 of the fatalities reported related to suicide — the Committee considers that the numbers of deaths suggests that the standard of care being provided still requires continued close scrutiny.

The Committee was disappointed by the Department’s continued reluctance to undertake research to estimate the potential level of harm caused to patients and clients. Without robust estimates of the extent of harm, we cannot say that we have safer care than we did 10 years ago or that we have a sound basis for setting priorities for harm reduction efforts going forward.

In the Committee’s view, there are some health and social care systems and practices at odds with the open, fair and learning culture to which the Department aspires. We were shocked to discover that nurses or any medical staff would have reservations about raising concerns about safety. The Department and trusts must do more to embed a widespread culture of safety in which honest reporting is encouraged and genuine learning can take place.

In respect of patients and clients, the Committee was disappointed to learn that, in less serious cases of adverse incidents, the individual will not always be well informed. We felt strongly that the sector needs to be more proactive in obtaining feedback from patients and clients to identify areas for potential improvement or to highlight good practice, and the current reporting of adverse incidents needs to be enhanced and made publicly available to enable the public to assess the relative quality across the service providers.

The Committee considers that achieving substantial improvements in patient safety will also require a management information system that captures data on all adverse incidents and near misses and uses that information to design care delivery systems. While the Committee noted the Department’s plans to introduce a new regional adverse incident learning management information system, with a pilot scheduled for 2014, we are concerned that, prior to its full introduction, comprehensive information on adverse incidents will continue to be unavailable. Furthermore, the Committee remains unconvinced of the need to develop a stand-alone, specific management information system when a national reporting and learning system has been operating across the NHS in England and Wales since 2003.

A small number of those who are dissatisfied with the treatment or care that they received from the sector will take legal action to obtain an explanation of, or an apology for, their experience or seek financial compensation for an injury suffered as a result of their experience. The latter can have significant financial implications. In five years up to March 2012, it has cost the Department £116 million. The Committee considers that further action is required to speed up the claims handling process and that serious consideration is given to the feasibility of developing formal dispute resolution procedures as an alternative to litigation.

In conclusion, while it is not possible to completely eliminate the risk of harm to Health and Social Care patients and clients, the challenge for the sector is to ensure that its patient safety systems minimise the risk of harm and to take steps to maximise the competence, knowledge and skills of health and social care professionals.

Roy Beggs (UUP, East Antrim)

Will the Member draw her remarks to a close, please?

Michaela Boyle (Sinn Féin, West Tyrone)

I must recognise the independent, evidence-based work of the Audit Office in giving the Committee a strong base from which to take its view across government. The Committee has 11 members; it is not just me. We are working well together, and we are all keen to do the best that we can.

Alex Easton (DUP, North Down)

I rise to speak on the PAC’s report on the Northern Ireland Housing Executive’s management of response maintenance contracts. The report raises very serious concerns about the capability and competence of management in the Housing Executive over a number of years, particularly at a senior level. It also highlights significant and serious breakdowns in corporate governance and accountability in one of Northern Ireland's major non-departmental bodies.

The Public Accounts Committee met on 12 September 2012 to consider the Comptroller and Auditor General's report on the Northern Ireland Housing Executive's management of response maintenance contracts. The witnesses were: Mr Will Haire, permanent secretary of the Department for Social Development (DSD); Dr John McPeake, chief executive of the Northern Ireland Housing Executive (NIHE); Mr Jim Wilkinson, director of the housing division in the Department for Social Development; Mr Gerry Flynn, director in the Northern Ireland Housing Executive; Mr Kieran Donnelly, Comptroller and Auditor General; and Ms Fiona Hamill, Treasury Officer of Accounts in the Department of Finance and Personnel.

In taking evidence, the Committee focused on three main areas: management of response maintenance contracts; whistle-blowing, investigations of breaches of discipline and reported suspected fraud; and corporate governance and accountability.

The Committee found that, during the report, there had been serious weaknesses in contract management in the Housing Executive over many years and this had been clear to senior management. However, the management regime failed to take the necessary and timely action required. For example, contracts were inappropriate, out of date and not fit for purpose; recommendations from the Comptroller and Auditor General aimed at addressing shortcomings in contract performance were totally ignored; management placed too much emphasis on a partnership approach and not enough on scrutinising the work done by the contractors; and senior management failed to equip staff with the skills to manage response maintenance contracts. As a result, many district maintenance teams were not delivering the required standard of service and were failing to challenge the poor performance of contractors. There were serious flaws in how jobs were selected for inspection, how inspections were carried out, the timeliness of the inspections and how the results were recorded and reported. There were also widespread and systemic weaknesses in the setting and using of key performance indicators. It is very likely that performance data was being manipulated and that reports were actively withheld from the board or audit committee or not fully responded to.

Despite a clear warning from the PSNI in 2006 about the inadequacies and weaknesses of its systems, the Housing Executive did nothing. That undermined its ability to effectively manage its contracts and guard against and tackle fraud. There is a real concern that the weaknesses and failings identified in response maintenance are systematic and extend into other areas of the Housing Executive, such as planned maintenance, kitchen replacement, heating schemes and land deals.

The Committee made the following recommendations:

"In the Committee’s opinion it is vitally important that both the Department and Housing Executive use the bedding-in period for these new contracts to critically evaluate how they are working in practice. The Committee recommends that emerging lessons are shared with the Housing Executive’s Board and the wider public sector through the Central Procurement Directorate within the Department of Finance and Personnel and the Northern Ireland Procurement Board.

The Committee recommends that detailed information on the results and timeliness of inspections is reported to the Housing Executive Board and Audit Committee who must also assure themselves that payments are being made promptly to all contractors.

This is not a recommendation that the Committee should have to make. However, given what has taken place the Committee is compelled to recommend that senior management within the Housing Executive, together with the Board, recognises and upholds the Corporate Assurance Unit’s independence from the operational divisions, and ensures that it continues to be protected and that its work is not undermined.

In light of what has transpired within the Housing Executive, the Committee recommends that the Central Procurement Directorate’s review of the accreditation process for Centres of Procurement Expertise should also address the need to improve the level of contract management skills within the public sector in Northern Ireland.

The Committee recommends that the Housing Executive and the Department undertake the necessary investigations across the Housing Executive’s business areas to establish the full extent of the contract management problems and the potential exposure in financial terms; and ensure that weaknesses are identified and eradicated."

The Committee also recommended:

"that senior management in the Housing Executive must send out a clear message to staff that the organisation is not a cold place for whistleblowers".

It also recommended:

"that the Housing Executive should be alert to former employees taking up employment with a firm or contractor providing services to the Housing Executive, and should ensure that there are no conflicts of interest or inappropriate working relationships involving former employees and current Housing Executive employees.

The Committee reiterates that it is the responsibility of a sponsor department to regularly review its processes for gaining assurance on sponsored bodies’ management of risks to ensure that effective controls are in place. The Committee recommends that departmental Governance Statements provide confirmation that this has been done."

The Committee also recommended:

"that the Department publicly reports on the outcome of its review of the progress being made to implement the recommendations from its governance review as soon as it is completed. The Committee also expects the Department to continue to monitor progress and report annually on this."

The Committee welcomes the Department and the Housing Executive's commitment to introduce the substantial changes needed to improve governance, accountability, contract management and value for money. However, the Committee considers that the Housing Executive has nothing to be complacent about. Action is required to tackle the systematic weakness in governance and contract management that has been exposed.

Although proposals to restructure the Housing Executive have been announced, that should not be seen as an opportunity to slow down or suspend the essential programme of change that is under way. The Committee expects the necessary changes to be implemented quickly.

The Committee also looks to the Department of Finance and Personnel to ensure that the lessons from the report, alongside those identified by the Comptroller and Auditor General and through the DSD reviews, are promulgated to and acted on by boards, audit committees and senior management across the public sector.

Finally, I pay my sincerest tribute to the Public Accounts Committee Clerk and staff for their guidance and organisational skills, which have led to such an effective report.

Seán Rogers (Social Democratic and Labour Party, South Down)

I welcome to the Public Gallery ladies from Ballymartin and the group of schoolchildren, who will be particularly interested in this one.

I wish to speak about the inquiry into improving literacy and numeracy achievement in schools. I declare my interest in education, first and foremost as a parent but also as a teacher, a former school principal and as a member of the Education Committee. The report is extremely important for two reasons: education forms the foundations on which we build a strong and vibrant economy, and numeracy and literacy are the cement that make those foundations strong. The Public Accounts Committee is about accountability, value for money and ensuring the very best in service delivery. I will put that in an educational context: a good school is child-centred, has high-quality teaching and learning practices, has effective leadership and is an integral part of the community. However, this will happen only where there is efficient and effective deployment of staff and resources. Literacy and numeracy are fundamental skills necessary for our young people to reach their potential at school and to live a rewarding life. Although there has been some improvement in the level of pupils achieving the expected standard in literacy and numeracy, progress has been slow. The Committee is particularly concerned that there is a strong link between low levels of achievement and social deprivation. In 2010-11, there was a 33 percentage point gap in achievement at GCSE between pupils with free school meal entitlement and those without. As someone who spent their best days in the classroom, I know that free school meal entitlement does not accurately reflect the level of social deprivation in our families. Further disparities exist, with girls generally outperforming boys, and, among disadvantaged communities, maintained schools generally outperform schools in the controlled sector.

The Committee also found that there can be a wide variation in the results achieved by schools with apparently similar intakes, indicating that the problem is not insurmountable providing the correct intervention is applied. We concluded that the operation of a number of key elements consistently underlies the performance of schools that achieve high standards of literacy and numeracy: a belief that every child, regardless of their background, can learn and build on basic literacy and numeracy; and systematic and sustained intervention in a child's early years. Although I am delighted that over 200 teachers have been appointed to address literacy and numeracy issues at the end of Key Stages 2 and 4, the issue needs a strategic approach right from the first day of school. We know from experience that it is extremely difficult to address these issues with an 11-year-old or a 15-year-old.

The engagement of parents is key to the educational development of our young people. Strong leadership and management practices, involving whole-school approaches to teaching literacy and numeracy are also very important, as is the provision of high-quality teaching and learning by teachers who have acquired, during their pre-service training and in-service professional learning, evidence-based teaching practices that are shown to be effective in meeting the developmental needs of each child. How can we provide that ongoing professional development when the Department has cut over £15 million from the staff development budget and our CASS services are basically decimated? It is also extremely important to have effective school governance based on a balance between supporting and challenging a school leadership team.

The Committee concluded that the Department must implement measures to ensure that it achieves real and sustained improvements in literacy and numeracy. That should help to equip our young people with the skills required to participate in an increasingly competitive global economy. Specifically, we felt that the Department should target the number of pupils achieving well below the expected level in literacy and numeracy, in order to target the rate of performance of the most vulnerable pupils. To do that, we need baseline assessment when children start school. We need to know where a child is before we can see how that child can improve. The allocation of funding should be reviewed to ensure that higher levels of funding are directed towards the development of literacy and numeracy competencies in the early years of a child's education. Certainly, the proposed change to the common funding formula that would leave 80% of primary schools worse off does not address the issue.

The next recommendation is to support and encourage good teaching and leadership and put in place measures to identify and assist teaching staff whose performance has fallen below acceptable standards; ensure that there are opportunities for high-quality professional development for all teachers; and encourage and support innovative practices, both locally and from international experience, to promote literacy and numeracy. Good practice, such as Achieving Derry and Achieving Belfast, has to be disseminated across the Province.

In the report, the PAC made a total of 16 recommendations, all of which were accepted by the Department of Education. The Committee looks forward to seeing the full and timely implementation of the recommendations made and to ensuring that there are benefits. In the words of the Bernard Van Leer Foundation in Holland:

"Many things can wait, the child cannot.

Right now his brain is being formed

His blood is being made,

His senses are being developed.

To him we cannot say Tomorrow.

His name is Today."

Time is of the essence. The Department must adopt a strategic approach to raising standards in numeracy and literacy now in order to ensure that young people have the skills to meet the demands of work in the 21st century.

Ross Hussey (UUP, West Tyrone)

I wish to address the report published this year by the Committee in respect of the transfer of former military and security sites to the Northern Ireland Executive. I declare an interest in this specific topic because of the fact that two barracks in my constituency of West Tyrone — St Lucia Barracks and Lisanelly Barracks — are not included in the report. I will keep an eye on them over the coming months and years.

The Public Accounts Committee examined the regeneration and redevelopment of six former military and security sites that were gifted to the Office of the First Minister and deputy First Minister in 2003. The six sites are at the Malone Road; Magherafelt; the former army base and prison at Maze/Long Kesh, which we have heard about at some point during the past few weeks; Ebrington; and Crumlin Road Gaol. They offered the opportunity for economic and social regeneration either through using the proceeds from their disposal, which was the case at the Malone Road and Magherafelt, or through developing masterplans and the establishment of appropriate bodies to develop and deliver them.

The Committee recognises that regeneration is a long-term process. Equally, it is important that tangible benefits are seen from the considerable investment that has already been made. Up to 31 March 2012, OFMDFM spent £62 million preparing the sites for redevelopment by private companies or government bodies. Despite that expenditure, we found that progress had been disappointingly slow. Masterplans had gone through a number of iterations and were not finalised, as agreement had been difficult to reach.

The Committee welcomed the Department’s actions to put strategic oversight arrangements in place. However, the report highlighted the need for improvement in the standards and quality of performance reporting on the regeneration through clear and transparent targets. They should be measurable and linked to expected outcomes for the sites. That is essential to demonstrate the value for money of the substantial investment of public funds in the sites. They must also include strategies for engaging with local communities and their representatives.

The Committee was also concerned about the disposal of the Malone Road and Magherafelt sites. The Committee’s investigations into the sale of the Malone Road site for £3·8 million found that neither OFMDFM nor Land and Property Services were aware, until the Audit Office and Committee’s investigations, that the purchaser was acting on behalf of another developer who provided the finance for the purchase and to whom the site was immediately transferred on the day it was sold. We consider that the Department could and should have got more for the site. Our report makes important recommendations on the disposal of public land and buildings, ensuring that any sale process is both transparent and well documented.

We were concerned that the Department could not make use of the £870,000 achieved from the sale of the Magherafelt site. Of greater concern was that the Department was unable to state definitively that the £870,000 had not been lost to the Northern Ireland block.

Finally, the Committee was disturbed and frustrated that papers supporting many of the key decisions made on the sites were either not available or were made available only late in the day. The establishment and maintenance of a complete and proper public record, apart from being a legal requirement, is a key aspect of open and transparent accountability and is one of the principles at the heart of good administration.

The Public Accounts Committee report made 11 recommendations — I do not intend to read them out — which, it believes, will deliver significant improvements in governance arrangements that will help drive forward the regeneration process and ensure that sound financial and administrative procedures are in place and adhered to.

Like other Committee members, I pay tribute to the Committee staff, who have assisted us throughout our investigations and whose cooperation has been first-class. Like the Chair of the Committee, I also thank my colleagues on the Committee for their support.

The debate stood suspended.

The sitting was suspended at 12.31 pm.

On resuming (Mr Speaker in the Chair) —

Oral Answers to Questions

Mitchel McLaughlin (Sinn Féin, South Antrim)

1. asked the Minister of Finance and Personnel why the proposal to outsource Civil Service jobs from Waterside House in Derry developed almost under the radar, given that he is probably aware that the civil servants involved have been distressed to learn of the plans and the fact that he might make a statement on the matter, which I am sure he was not trying to keep secret, in the near future. (AQT 341/11-15)

Simon Hamilton (DUP, Strangford)

I welcome the Member to the House. It was a very timely and efficient arrival.

I take exception to one of the terms that the Member used, which was that this has happened "under the radar". Trade union staff in Waterside House, in our Civil Service pensions branch which is based in Londonderry, have been consulted throughout the process. The Member also said that there was a proposal to outsource the work that they do. This gives me a useful opportunity as, indeed, will, I am sure, the Adjournment debate on public sector jobs in the north-west later this evening, to clarify a few points that, I think, have been whipped up for some particular purpose by some ill-informed public comment on this topic. I can understand the concerns that staff in pensions branch might have — if I were one of them — when they read some of the comments that said that 80 jobs in their branch could be made redundant because of the outsourcing of the work they do.

Let me make it clear to the Member and to the House that the work that we are doing for a future service delivery project comes out of necessity. The IT systems that we have that pay and administer pensions are run on two separate IT systems at the minute, and they are coming to the end of their life. Although it is not a determinative factor, it is an issue that pension reform across the water is necessitating that we streamline what we do. Therefore, we are having to procure one new IT system to pay and administer pensions.

I believe that I am duty-bound to provide the best service that I possibly can for everybody in Northern Ireland and to do so in a value-for-money way. I would be remiss in my duties, and the Member would, perhaps, be the first to attack me if in seeking solutions for the future delivery of pensions in Northern Ireland I did not look at all the options that were there, including outsourcing, if, indeed, that provides the best value for money, the best service and the best outcomes.

Mitchel McLaughlin (Sinn Féin, South Antrim)

I thank the Minister for his answer. I assure him that, although I might criticise him, I will not attack him.

He and I have done some useful work over the years on the Finance Committee. I have to say that this came as a bit of a surprise to members of the Committee. I spoke to some of those civil servants in Derry, and it is they, not somebody whipping it up, who are seriously concerned. Will the Minister indicate whether outsourcing is one of the options in the mix? Will it affect the wider Civil Service as well? Is that an option?

Simon Hamilton (DUP, Strangford)

I have no ideological problem with any form of service delivery model, whether it means doing it in-house, as a joint venture with the private sector, or outsourcing it to, perhaps, the private sector or the third sector — the voluntary and community sector. I have no dogma that drives me in one particular way or another. The only ideology, and the only dogma, that drives me in respect of this is getting the best service that provides the best outcome for the people who elect us to serve them.

I understand the concerns of the staff in Waterside House, but let me make this clear: they have been informed throughout the process that, because of the necessity to produce a new IT system, there will be a requirement for fewer staff. No matter what option is chosen, there will be a requirement to have fewer staff in Waterside House. Let me make this clear as well: no matter what outcome is chosen and no matter in which direction the outline business case suggests we head in this matter, there will still be the necessity for a pensions branch, because there will be high-level work, particularly in terms of policy, financial accounting and other areas, that will still be required, and those people will be civil servants.

Some people will not be required in pensions branch in the future.

They will not be made redundant. They will be moved around the system in accordance with the customs and practice of the Civil Service. Those who are publicly saying that 80 civil servants will be made redundant are wrong with their numbers and are wrong to say that those people will be made redundant. I hope that now, and later, I can give some assurance to those people that the concerns that have been whipped up through public comment are not valid.

Barry McElduff (Sinn Féin, West Tyrone)

2. asked the Minister of Finance and Personnel, given the amount of money that Executive Departments spend each year on car parking spaces in the Belfast area, whether his Department has any plans to increase the number of staff who use more sustainable transport. (AQT 342/11-15)

Simon Hamilton (DUP, Strangford)

I appreciate that there is a desire across society to try to be more sustainable and more environmentally friendly in our use of transport. By necessity, the Civil Service, and particularly my Department in its stewardship of all properties across the Civil Service, will have a number of properties that have car-parking spaces attached, but the Member will be aware of many schemes that we run in the Civil Service, including a cycle-to-work scheme and car-sharing initiatives that the Minister for Regional Development is responsible for, that encourage civil and public servants right across the board to be more considerate about the mode of transport that they choose to use. However, we have to accept that, in many cases, using motor vehicles to get to a place of work is the best and only option available to people.

Barry McElduff (Sinn Féin, West Tyrone)

I suggest to the Minister that one way of reducing such costs and the number of car-parking spaces would be to have a serious approach to the decentralisation of public sector jobs to towns such as Omagh. Are we serious about the relocation and decentralisation of public sector jobs or are we merely paying lip service to it?

Simon Hamilton (DUP, Strangford)

The Member will be aware that his party colleague the Minister of Agriculture intends to decentralise headquarters jobs from the Department of Agriculture to Ballykelly. I think that he would welcome that. The town of Omagh, which he is obviously fond of, given that he lives there and represents it, has one of the highest levels of people per 100,000 of the working population working in the public sector. In that respect, there has been a decentralisation of jobs to that area.

I do not accept the argument that, if we were to take all our Departments and put them all in provincial towns, we would suddenly see the end of people driving into work. My experience in Northern Ireland is that people will drive even very short distances to work, so, in that respect, there will still be a need for car-parking spaces whether the headquarters or agency is in Omagh, Belfast, Newtownards or wherever.

Alban Maginness (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast North)

3. asked the Minister of Finance and Personnel whether he has any concerns about the review of the Ulster Bank and its operations here that was announced last week by its state-owned parent bank, the Royal Bank of Scotland (RBS), and whether he has sought a meeting with RBS to discuss the review. (AQT 343/11-15)

Simon Hamilton (DUP, Strangford)

I would have been more concerned at the outcome of the announcement had the decision that was taken by the Government in conjunction with RBS been one of the options that was being talked about publicly. We know that the Ulster Bank has been a serious problem within and for the RBS group. Indeed, much of the detail behind the report shows the extent to which Ulster Bank is a problem in the group. We would have had more cause to be concerned today if the option of hiving off the Ulster Bank and all its assets, whether good or bad, and establishing it as a bad bank, either internally or outside of the group, had been taken. We would have more cause for concern if that were the case.

I therefore welcome the fact that the Treasury has taken the decision to retain the Ulster Bank as a core part of RBS's operations. The Member has acknowledged that it is our biggest lending bank, with over 30% of the market. It is the only nationally owned bank, and therefore it is the only bank that takes forward national lending initiatives such as funding for lending and the export finance guarantee scheme in Northern Ireland. It is essential that we have a properly functioning Ulster Bank here. That has been recognised by Treasury.

Do I have concerns? Absolutely. There are areas in the report that cause concern. The second review to establish Ulster Bank on a long-term and sustainable footing is, I think, code for a further restructuring of that bank. I think that it is probably inevitable that there will be further job losses in Ulster Bank and, indeed, other banks before they get to the position where they are functioning properly.

I have some concerns about the timescale of three years for the sale of assets. As the Member will know, doing that in a depressed property market, such as that which we currently have in Northern Ireland, is cause for concern.

Alban Maginness (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast North)

I thank the Minister for that answer, and I am banking the first part of it. It is reassuring to hear Treasury and RBS's view of Ulster Bank. However, when I hear the word "review", particularly from banks, I think that I am right to be nervous, given that, over the past number of years, the banks have butchered branches and staff numbers. I, therefore, ask the Minister to have direct contact with RBS and —

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

I encourage the Member to finish.

Alban Maginness (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast North)

— to say to it, "No more branch cuts, and no more staff cuts".

Simon Hamilton (DUP, Strangford)

I thank the Member for his supplementary question. It was remiss of me not to address whether I have met Ulster Bank. I have spoken to senior management in Ulster Bank, and I am scheduled to meet them next week. Following on from that meeting, I hope to meet the new chief executive of RBS, Ross McEwan, because I think that there are points, such as those that the Member made, that we need to reiterate.

I think that the report gives us the argument, which we can take to RBS and Treasury, that there is an acknowledgement of Ulster Bank's importance to the Northern Ireland economy. We need Ulster Bank to function properly, because, as the Member and the House will know, businesses are starting to see signs of recovery, and if that continues to be the case, they will want to get the sort of credit that they need to develop their businesses. So, in that respect, we need Ulster Bank to do its job, which is to lend money to people who have viable propositions. So, I also hope to meet Treasury, and I have already spoken to it on the telephone. The joint ministerial task force, on which Arlene Foster and I sit, will, I am sure, concentrate on and drill down into that issue.

In meeting Ulster Bank, I hope to try to influence, as best I can, this new bad bank creation, because Northern Ireland's property market is not the same as that in London and the south-east. Flooding our market with assets over a very short three-year period, which is, of course, distinct from what NAMA is doing in taking a much longer view to distressed assets, could have a seriously detrimental impact on a property market that is languishing close to the bottom but that is at least showing signs of some improvement. We do not want to kill that stone dead before it has even started.

Fra McCann (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

Go raibh míle maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. Ceist uimhir a ceathair. Question 4.

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

Order. This is topical questions. Just ask the question directly to the Minister.

Fra McCann (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

First of all, I congratulate Simon on his recent promotion to Minister.

Fra McCann (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

4. asked the Minister of Finance and Personnel what he will do to deal with the serious problems that the South’s decision on air passenger duty will no doubt cause in the North. (AQT 344/11-15)

Simon Hamilton (DUP, Strangford)

I thank the Member for his question and his congratulations. The announcement in the Republic of Ireland Budget that the Government will eliminate air passenger duty (APD) has obviously brought the issue to the forefront of people's minds once again. In itself, I do not think that the elimination of APD from €3 down to zero will have a massively significant effect on traffic from Northern Ireland's airports down to Dublin Airport. In fact, that was reflected in public comments that Belfast City Airport made after the Irish Government's Budget announcement. I think that it is fairly transparent why that is the case. Saving €3 on a flight is not enough justification to go down to Dublin Airport considering that you have to pay for petrol, the toll and parking and so forth. However, I accept that having APD in Northern Ireland causes a problem and a distortion.

APD is the very definition of an unfair tax, because it works against regions of the United Kingdom, such as Northern Ireland, Scotland and some parts of northern England as well. In that respect, I am sure that the Member would echo my concerns and join me in saying to Treasury that it is time that it eliminated APD for all flights — it has already been done for long-haul flights — so that we can have a fairer tax situation in Northern, encourage more airlines to operate out of Northern Ireland and increase and enhance our connectivity to the world.

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

That concludes topical questions to the Minister of Finance and Personnel. We now move to oral questions to the Minister.

Barry McElduff (Sinn Féin, West Tyrone)

1. asked the Minister of Finance and Personnel what considerations will be given to businesses in town centres when conducting the non-domestic rating review. (AQO 4970/11-15)

Simon Hamilton (DUP, Strangford)

I thought that we had got rid of you earlier.

The ongoing revaluation exercise involves the interpretation of open-market rental evidence, and that will dictate the new rateable values that my Department will publish by the end of next year. The legislation requires that businesses in town centres are treated in exactly the same way as businesses elsewhere, and, therefore, Land and Property Services cannot give special consideration to any location or sector of business. The valuation process is entirely evidence-based and, naturally, that rental evidence reflects the relative advantages and disadvantages of particular trading locations. At the end of the day, it is the open market that establishes current rent levels and thus the new rateable values as well. That alone will determine who pays more and who pays less following the revaluation.

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

Questions 2, 11 and 13 have been withdrawn.

Barry McElduff (Sinn Féin, West Tyrone)

I thank the Minister for his answer, which was quite rigid and did not suggest much flexibility. I would like to think that the Minister is a listening Minister. Among businesses that are under pressure, rising energy costs and rates are often quoted. Can I ask the Minister this directly: will he agree to meet, either here in Stormont or in Omagh, a representative group of town centre businesses from that area to hear at first hand their concerns about rates?

Simon Hamilton (DUP, Strangford)

I am more than happy to meet any group of traders, including those from Omagh. Indeed, since assuming office three months ago, I have met traders from Ballymena, Ballymoney, Belfast and everywhere. I am, in that regard, a listening Minister.

What I am able to do for those people is perhaps a little bit more limited, although I would point out to the Member the raft of initiatives that predecessors in this post have brought forward to try to assist the sorts of businesses that he is talking about. The likes of small business rate relief has been of great assistance to businesses right across Northern Ireland, and, wherever I travel, businesses tell me how important that has been to them. In some cases, it has ensured that they have remained in business and, in some cases, that they have retained some staff.

I accept entirely that there are problems and difficulties in many town centres across Northern Ireland and on many high streets, and I think that some of those will continue. However, we would be in a far worse position if it had not been for the small business rate relief scheme, which has given £1·5 million in relief to properties in Omagh. Of course, his constituency extends beyond Omagh, in case I need to tell him that, and the Strabane District Council area has seen almost £1 million in relief through the small business rate relief scheme.

My Department has also frozen the non-domestic regional rate — I think that we are into the eighth year of that freeze — and, of course, we have introduced empty properties relief to tackle vacancies that are dotted right across town and city centres across Northern Ireland. In the West Tyrone constituency, eight new businesses in Omagh and Strabane have benefited from that 50% rates concession.

Dominic Bradley (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Newry and Armagh)

Go raibh míle maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as ucht a fhreagra. The Minister mentioned in his response the small business rate relief scheme, which is a time-limited scheme, as far as I remember, governed by a sunset clause. Will the Minister consider extending that scheme at the end of its present period?

Simon Hamilton (DUP, Strangford)

I thank the Member for his question. I am very fond of the small business rate relief scheme, as I mentioned in response to Mr McElduff's question. It has done a lot of positive things for small businesses right across Northern Ireland. That has been recognised by this House, which has approved not just one but two extensions of the small business rate relief scheme to the extent that over half of all business properties in Northern Ireland now receive at least 20% off their rates bill. Compared to similar relief across the United Kingdom, it is an exceptionally extensive and positive scheme. He is right that it is time-limited, but on the question of extending it, I will conduct a valuation of the scheme next year, and I want to do that after the revaluation has reported its initial findings to see what impact the revaluation has had. The small business rate relief scheme was brought in partly in acknowledgement that we had not had a revaluation for a number of years, and that there were potentially some distortions in the market. If those distortions are ironed out by the revaluation, then the necessity for a small business rate relief scheme may be eliminated. But if it has not been, I am certainly not averse — resources depending, of course — to reintroducing something similar to what we already have.

Paul Girvan (DUP, South Antrim)

I thank the Minister for his answer so far, but in relation to the 2015 sunset clause which was referred to, if a further extension were to be looked at, would there be any possibility that the rates valuation figure could be increased? I appreciate that it started at £5,000 of rateable value and went up to £10,000. However, we understand that there is still a small number —

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

I encourage the Member to finish his question.

Paul Girvan (DUP, South Antrim)

— which require some assistance as well.

Simon Hamilton (DUP, Strangford)

As this very successful scheme comes towards the end of its life, there will increasingly be a conversation about what we do beyond 2015. As I said to Mr Bradley, I am not against having a small business rate relief scheme, but there must be a need for it. We must also see the extent of the positive benefits that the scheme has had. I believe that it has had positive benefits, and I am sure that the Member could report from his own constituency that many traders and businesses have benefited from the scheme. It is not that I am against doing it, but I want to see evidence that it has worked. I want to see, through the results of the revaluation, that there is indeed a need for it. If we have seen, as some might anticipate, a correction, move or shift in the balance of where rates are payable to, say, edge-of-town or out-of-town shopping centres or complexes, that might then be to the benefit of small businesses in town and city centres. Therefore, there may not be a need for a relief scheme at all, or to the extent of the one that we have had.

The Member's question allows me, once again, to reiterate my message to people who expect that, because their rents have gone down, their rates will automatically go down as a result of the revaluation. As the Member knows, that is not necessarily the case. It is an average taken right across Northern Ireland that determine whether they go down or not. I await the results of the revaluation, and then the evaluation of the small business rate relief scheme, to decide what we should do beyond 2015.

Danny Kinahan (UUP, South Antrim)

I thank the Minister for his answer, and certainly I welcome any rate relief schemes. Paying rates will always be painful. Is the Minister thinking outside the box? Is he working with the Treasury to think of completely new ways to finance our councils?

Simon Hamilton (DUP, Strangford)

No one likes to pay rates, ourselves included. No Member in the House wants to pay rates.

Danny Kinahan (UUP, South Antrim)

Especially me.

Simon Hamilton (DUP, Strangford)

The Member declares a personal interest there. I would not like to be paying the rateable value of his house, I would like to say. [Laughter.] It is a lovely house, though.

Jonathan Bell (DUP, Strangford)

It is a castle, is it not?

Simon Hamilton (DUP, Strangford)

I am not sure. House, castle, stately home — I am not sure whether that shows up on the rates bill. It is a lovely properly nonetheless.

The Member is right to identify a longer-term problem. Well, it is not even a longer-term problem, because we are starting to see the effect of it now. In their rates bills, retail properties probably pay a higher than proportionate amount, in respect of their contribution to the economy. As we all know, and it does not matter to what part of Northern Ireland you go, town centres are under pressure. They are under pressure from changes in lifestyle and shopping trends, and they are under pressure, as well, from the fact that all of us are using more and more online shopping. Obviously, if you have a shop, the bricks and mortar is a cost, not just in the maintenance and keeping of it and paying for it, but also in the rates bill.

The Member is right to identify that the Treasury, perhaps, has a role and responsibility in this. One of the suggestions mooted is that we move to something where we put a tax on online transactions. I would be interested to see what money this Administration would get from that. By the end of this revaluation, it will be close to 10 years since we in Northern Ireland have looked at our non-domestic taxation system. It would be a timely opportunity, given those other changes and the moment that it is, once again to look at the options that there might be to amend our non-domestic taxation system.

Without prejudicing that review, I am not entirely sure what system we should move to and whether there are any systems available that would be massively better than the rates, which is a fairly understandable and easy-to-implement system.

However, I am happy to look at any and all options. It might be timely to do that once we get through the revaluation.

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

I remind the Minister of the two-minute rule.

Kieran McCarthy (Alliance, Strangford)

3. asked the Minister of Finance and Personnel what rate relief is available in town centres where a significant proportion of retail premises are vacant. (AQO 4972/11-15)

Simon Hamilton (DUP, Strangford)

I am tempted to refer the Member to the answer that I gave some moments ago. A range of rate reliefs can apply in town centres. The small business rate relief is now awarded to almost 25,000 business premises that get at least 20% rate relief. The empty shops rate concession introduced by my predecessor in April 2012 has been extended until 2015. More than 170 new businesses across Northern Ireland have now received a 50% first-year discount. Owners of empty properties benefit from a 50% reduction in rates, unlike the position in the rest of the United Kingdom. Another unique measure is specifically targeted at improving the appearance of town centres. It allows the use of window displays in empty shops for non-commercial purposes without triggering the full occupied rate.

Kieran McCarthy (Alliance, Strangford)

I thank the Minister for his response. Given the plight of town centres throughout Northern Ireland, has the Minister made any assessment of making it easier for owners to convert shops that have been lying empty for some time for other uses, thereby reducing the rates that would be demanded?

Simon Hamilton (DUP, Strangford)

I thank the Member for his question. From the people in towns and chambers of commerce that I have already visited, I frequently hear of their belief that, in the future, our town centres cannot be so dominated and led in development by retail. That is because, as I said in response to Mr Kinahan, our retail habits and behaviour are changing. Therefore, town centres need to change. They need to become much more commercial and have a lot more office space. They certainly need to have more residential space, and they probably need to have a lot more cultural and leisure space as well. If our town centres are to survive and thrive, they need to be different from the ones that entered the downturn. Indeed, many traders will openly admit that there were far too many shops in their town centres. Although some might have been sustainable when we were going through boom times and there was a lot of money about, it was a false sustainability in the longer term. Unfortunately, we have seen that in many town centres across Northern Ireland.

There is a planning element to converting retail premises for other uses through change of use. The Member should take that up with the Minister of the Environment. I would be keen to see more residential use, particularly of the space above shops. A good scheme was run by the Department for Social Development a number of years ago. Perhaps you could take up with that Department. That, resources permitting, would be a good scheme to diversify our town centres. I again point the Member to what we have already done with empty property relief to get vacant retail units back into use. In our Ards Borough Council area, seven shops have availed themselves of £15,000 worth of relief in their first year of operation. Although it is only seven and he and I know that there are many more than seven vacant units across the area, it is at least a start.

Adrian McQuillan (DUP, East Londonderry)

I thank the Minister for his answers so far. How does our non-domestic rating system compare with the rest of the UK?

Simon Hamilton (DUP, Strangford)

I like to think that it compares favourably. I would not for a second stand in front of the House and say that Northern Ireland has by far the best non-domestic rating system. The nature of devolution is that devolved regions and Administrations will choose what they think is best for their area. However, I think that we compare exceptionally favourably with what happens in the rest of the United Kingdom. I will give two examples of that. One is the 50% relief that we give to empty premises. I am not talking about those that are occupied in the first year, although, that said, our empty property relief has been replicated in Scotland and Wales, so, sometimes, Northern Ireland is in the vanguard and is doing innovative things that others copy. The relief that an empty property gets in Northern Ireland is 50%. That compares exceptionally favourably with England and Wales, where such ratepayers pay 100%, and Scotland, where they pay 90%.

Another positive of the business rate system that we have in Northern Ireland is that increases in GB are determined through the September retail price index (RPI) figure. For this year, that was 3·2%. In Northern Ireland, we set the increase for the regional rate part of our bill using the lowest inflation measure that there is, which is the GDP deflator. For this year and next, that is set at 2·7%. When rates and regional rates rise, the rise is lower in Northern Ireland than elsewhere. I would not argue that we are by far the best, but we have shown by our innovation in the Department that we are prepared to listen and respond to the problems. As a result, we have a very favourable and comparable non-domestic rating system in Northern Ireland.

Alex Maskey (Sinn Féin, Belfast South)

Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. I thank the Minister for his responses so far. In Belfast city centre, along with all the pressures that were addressed today, there was an extended period of disruptive protests. Will the Minister accept and promote the fact that, this incoming year, especially pre-Christmas, we need a city centre that is free from such disruptive protests?

Simon Hamilton (DUP, Strangford)

I do not wish to get into who caused it and who started it all; I do not think that that would get any of us anywhere. I am sure that the Member will join me in protecting and defending anyone's right to protest in Northern Ireland. There are plenty of Members in the House who, down through the years, have protested about a lot of things. I agree to the extent that I do not think that anyone wants our city centre or, indeed, any part of Northern Ireland crippled during the important trading period over Christmas by repeats of any of the scenes of violence that we saw last year. I absolutely defend and protect the right of anyone to protest, but it must be done in a lawful and peaceful way.

Jim Allister (Traditional Unionist Voice, North Antrim)

The Minister may be aware of the news today that, according to a survey, Ballymena is now in the unenviable position of having the highest proportion of empty shops across Northern Ireland, with a staggering 27% of shops being empty. What can the Minister do to address that? I appreciate that he cannot rig the rating system, but, if the present concessions are not arresting the decline, surely he can do more. Is his mind open to doing more on relief for town centre shops so that we can arrest the situation in a hitherto prosperous town such as Ballymena?

Simon Hamilton (DUP, Strangford)

I thank the Member for his comments, and I agree. I can remember, many years ago, as a child being taken to Ballymena by my parents. It was a vibrant and dynamic shopping town. Across Northern Ireland, we can see changes in shopping trends and behaviour and the impact of edge-of-town and out-of-town retail, and Ballymena is one of the first places to spring to mind. I was in Ballymena a couple of weeks ago and met the mayor, several councillors and the chamber of commerce. Although I do not deny that there are many vacancies in Ballymena town centre — I have seen them for myself — I was somewhat surprised in that the message that comes from the publication of the report today does not chime with what I heard from many retailers in Ballymena, who accept that their town is under pressure and that there are vacancies but are reporting to me that, through many initiatives that the council is leading, they are seeing trade start to go up, particularly in and around the town centre. I understand that the report is not just about the town centre but about peripheral areas, and that, as the Member will know, will sometimes distort the figures and make them look far worse than they are.

What assistance and support can the Executive give to Ballymena? It is about towns right across Northern Ireland and not just Ballymena, but I will highlight what we have done in Ballymena. Through the small business rate relief scheme, 1,183 properties have got £1·7 million of relief on their rates bills. Ballymena was slow to start on the issue of empty properties and trying to address some of the vacancies. That is uncharacteristic of the Ballymena area, given that there was free money on the go. Four new premises are now open in Ballymena that are availing themselves of £11,000 of relief in the first year of their operation. I accept that there are probably other things that we could do, but I operate with a very defined spending envelope, and, no matter how many things I could do, even if I eliminated rates for some businesses, having no rates bill at all is no substitute for not having sufficient turnover. If you do not have a viable business and do not have a turnover that is enough to keep you above water, there is nothing that I or anyone else can do with the rates bill to keep a business in operation.

Cathal Boylan (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

4. asked the Minister of Finance and Personnel for an update on the review of fiscal powers, which forms part of the economic pact, including details of the terms of reference and the proposed programme of work. (AQO 4973/11-15)

Simon Hamilton (DUP, Strangford)

I thank the Member for his question. DFP is undertaking a scoping exercise to examine the Scottish Calman and Welsh Silk commission reports and the positions taken on the possible devolution of each individual tax or duty in those jurisdictions. After that, a work programme will be developed to progress the exercise in order to put recommendations on the possible devolution of additional fiscal powers to the Executive by autumn 2014, in line with the commitment in 'Building a Prosperous and United Community'.

Cathal Boylan (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle, agus gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as ucht a fhreagra. I thank the Minister for his answer. Are there any plans to involve external experts' opinion in the review?

Simon Hamilton (DUP, Strangford)

There are no specific plans at this stage, but people have already come forward with opinions. I think particularly of the recent NICVA report, which looked at additional tax-raising powers that the Stormont Assembly may wish to take upon itself. I am by no means against listening to outside voices and involving those in giving some evidence to any review, but, ultimately, as the Member will appreciate, the final decision rests with us in the Assembly about whether we want to take the powers upon ourselves.

William Humphrey (DUP, Belfast North)

Is the Minister pressing the national Government at Westminster for Northern Ireland to be treated the same as Scotland and Wales?

Simon Hamilton (DUP, Strangford)

The nature of the devolutionary settlement is that we will all want to be treated in slightly different ways depending on what our particular objectives are as regions. So far, we have pursued the devolution of tax powers that would be of economic advantage to Northern Ireland. So, we continue to pursue corporation tax powers, and work is ongoing in respect of ensuring that, should a positive decision be taken by the Prime Minister next autumn, we are ready to devolve those powers as quickly as possible. Obviously, the Member and the House will know the positive economic benefits that being able to reduce our corporation tax rate would bring for Northern Ireland. The other power that we have already devolved is air passenger duty for direct long-haul flights. Although we did not pursue that as a tax per se to devolve for Northern Ireland, it was the solution to a problem that we had and brought economic benefit to Northern Ireland by retaining the direct connection between Belfast and New York.

The approach adopted by other regions such as Scotland and Wales has been much more dominated by politics in trying to increase fiscal accountability there and was particularly aggressively pursued in Scotland by the Government for, I think, more political reasons than we have here. Regions will want to be treated in different ways for different reasons. I am not against devolving more tax powers to Northern Ireland if there is a defined benefit for Northern Ireland in doing so, but we always have to be mindful of the gap that it might cause in the revenues that we receive as an Executive and, therefore, our ability to spend on providing services to the people who elect us.

Judith Cochrane (Alliance, Belfast East)

Does the Minister believe that we in Northern Ireland can learn any lessons from the recent Calman commission and Silk commission in Scotland and Wales respectively? Is there any danger that they could now outflank Northern Ireland on tax-varying powers?

Simon Hamilton (DUP, Strangford)

I thank the Member for her question. I do not think there is any risk of us being outflanked, for the reasons that I mentioned to Mr Humphrey. I think that regions will want to choose different powers depending on their particular interests. What has come out as a result of the announcement in Wales in the last week following on from the Silk commission is that, in some respects, Wales is just catching up with where we are. The biggest thing that it got were borrowing powers, which we have had for the past number of years and have maximised over the past decade or so in order to deliver more capital infrastructure in Northern Ireland.

There is a frequent demand to devolve more powers, but it may not always be the case that Treasury will want to give you those powers. It appears from Silk and Calman as well as the response from Treasury that the only powers on offer are land-based powers, such as stamp duty and landfill tax, which cannot be easily moved across boundaries.

I do not fear that we will be outflanked or fall behind other regions. In many respects, particularly on APD, we are well ahead of other regions. The ability to adjust APD for direct long-haul flights is something that the Welsh and Scottish Finance Ministers look at covetously.

Cathal Ó hOisín (Sinn Féin, East Londonderry)

5. asked the Minister of Finance and Personnel for an update on his level of engagement with the National Assets Management Agency's Northern Ireland advisory committee, including the issues he has addressed with it. (AQO 4974/11-15)

Simon Hamilton (DUP, Strangford)

I thank the Member for his question. I met NAMA’s chairman, Frank Daly, and the Northern Ireland advisory committee on 7 October as part of my regular engagement with the agency and other banks. We discussed a broad range of issues around NAMA’s management of its Northern Ireland assets, including the importance of ensuring that they are released at a suitable time and without having a negative impact on the market here, which is beginning to show some first signs of recovery. The committee assured me that its approach is to encourage a phased and orderly realisation of the assets while seeking to avoid saturating the market with additional unwanted supply.

Cathal Ó hOisín (Sinn Féin, East Londonderry)

Go raibh maith agat a Cheann Comhairle agus gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as ucht an fhreagra. How will the Minister ensure that NAMA's Northern assets are redirected? How will the NAMA committee be stepped when it comes to efficiency and accountability?

Simon Hamilton (DUP, Strangford)

I will take those points in reverse.

The committee is accountable to the Government in the Irish Republic, who established it, and to its board; it is not accountable to me. I have to say that I do not have any particular desire for any element of NAMA to be accountable to me, given the headache that that would involve. However, as the Member will, I am sure, want to hear, I am prepared to engage with NAMA at any and all times on any and all issues because of the importance that it has for Northern Ireland. NAMA holds assets with a nominal value of around £3·5 billion spread across Northern Ireland but primarily in Belfast and in Counties Antrim and Down. Those are assets that I would like to see put into the market at an appropriate moment, because NAMA has some very good properties that could be developed and could benefit Northern Ireland's economy.

My biggest concern and one that I will always engage on — my predecessor did likewise — is to ensure that, when releasing those assets, which we ultimately want to see developed, it is not done in a way that would harm the property market in Northern Ireland in the way that I talked about to Mr Maginness earlier. RBS seems to be heading towards moving its assets on very quickly, in contrast to what NAMA has said that it would do. To be fair, NAMA has shown, through its behaviour, that it takes a much longer-term approach to the assets that it has. That is encouraging.

Jonathan Craig (DUP, Lagan Valley)

I thank the Minister for that detailed answer. Will he update us on NAMA's portfolio in Northern Ireland and outline what efforts the Executive will make to encourage it to engage in public projects that would be to the benefit of all of us?

Simon Hamilton (DUP, Strangford)

I thank the Member for his question. Overall, NAMA's Northern Ireland portfolio had a nominal value of about £3·5 billion; its acquisition value is, I understand, £1·3 billion, which is, as the Member will appreciate, a substantial holding in a Northern Ireland context. We have better information about NAMAs assets than we do about some of the banks' assets. I understand that 18% of what it has is office accommodation, 17% is retail, 10% is residential, 5% is development and 3% is hotel and leisure. The balance is made up from land, at about one quarter of the portfolio, and 22% is made up of other investment assets. As I mentioned to the Member opposite, 46% of the assets are in Belfast, and 80% are located in Counties Antrim and Down, with the balance being elsewhere in Northern Ireland.

As for encouraging NAMA to do some specific projects, I can, to be fair, think of two projects in different areas. One was moving forward with a residential project on the outskirts of Belfast at Millmount, Dundonald, where 95 properties are being developed and which will create 100 jobs during the construction stage. The other significant one was moving forward with Lanyon Plaza and the Soloist in the centre of Belfast, which brings much needed grade-A office accommodation that we can utilise for the growth of existing companies or for attracting foreign direct investment.

Alban Maginness (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast North)

NAMA has done some very good development work, particularly in the South and in Britain. I know that the Minister referred to development at Dundonald and so forth, but did he get any indication that NAMA would expand that work? It is important that that investment takes place.

Simon Hamilton (DUP, Strangford)

I thank the Member for his third question on the topic today.

I encourage NAMA and will continue to encourage it to do so in a sensible and prudent way. Interestingly and to follow on from what I said to Mr Craig, NAMA has lent around £140 million to businesses in Northern Ireland so that they can add value to the assets that it will ultimately realise value for in the longer term.

As we know, it has a lot of cash at its disposal. It has employed that elsewhere and is starting to employ it in Northern Ireland. I encourage NAMA to do that in a sensible, measured and prudent way over the years to come.

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

We start with topical questions.

Robin Newton (DUP, Belfast East)

1. asked the Minister of Health, Social Services and Public Safety what action he is taking to improve the survival rates for those people who suffer a heart attack. (AQT 351/11-15)

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

I thank the Member for the question. We are taking a number of actions to improve survival rates from heart attack.

First, my Chief Medical Officer is devising a community resuscitation strategy to ensure that people are better equipped to respond when a heart attack takes place, and especially where defibrillators are available that they can make full and best use of them in a safe way. Very importantly, we have also established percutaneous coronary intervention (PCI) units on a 24/7 basis. The Belfast PCI unit at the Royal Victoria Hospital has been launched. It will cover 75% of Northern Ireland's population and make a massive difference. The other unit will be in Altnagelvin Hospital and will be in place from next summer. It will cover the rest of Northern Ireland, and it will probably also offer a service beyond Northern Ireland. We will have 100% coverage for PCI.

The difference that PCI can make is absolutely fantastic, and we are looking at a reduced mortality rate of around 2%, which equates to around 20 people living as a result of having the PCI unit in place. Not only that, but for every hour after someone has had a heart attack without having such an intervention, it does damage to the heart muscle. Having PCI units in place to respond very quickly to the needs of people will ensure that the heart muscle is not damaged. Consequently, people who suffer heart attacks and receive PCI will live considerably longer.

Robin Newton (DUP, Belfast East)

I thank the Minister for that. That is good news. Will he comment on how cardiac catheterisation laboratories — cath labs — might be rolled out across Northern Ireland?

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

We have a series of cath labs. The cath labs that I referred to — the PCI units — will be provided on a 24/7 basis in the Royal Victoria and Altnagelvin hospitals. Cath labs will be available in other parts of Northern Ireland but will not be provided on a 24/7 basis.

Interestingly enough, PCI works by pushing a very fine wire through the patient's artery. Medical staff can then identify where the blockage is, and the procedure takes the blockage out. All that it leaves behind is a small mark on the patient's arm. It is a non-traumatic intervention, but it is hugely effective. I know that our consultants and others are looking at the possibility of using that intervention on stroke patients. If we ever got to that point, it would have a massive impact.

Currently, if people suffer from what are known as ST-segment elevation myocardial infarction (STEMI) heart attacks — in other words, they have in their bloodstream a blood clot or a piece of fat, which people generally bring upon themselves by eating the wrong foods — we have the ability to remove that very effectively if we get them to hospital on time. By setting those units up in the Royal Victoria and Altnagelvin hospitals, we will be able to get people into hospital very quickly.

Caitriona Ruane (Sinn Féin, South Down)

2. asked the Minister of Health, Social Services and Public Safety how he plans to respond to the recommendations in the recent report from the College of Emergency Medicine. (AQT 352/11-15)

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

I had a look at the report from the College of Emergency Medicine, and it was certainly not the negative report that was reported in the press and other media. It identified that a lot of good things were happening in our emergency departments.

The report identified that, right across the United Kingdom and beyond, there is a problem with getting emergency medical consultants. The royal colleges, in particular, need to look at how we can ensure that adequate numbers of emergency medicine consultants, registrars and doctors are available to carry out the care. I think that many of the things that we have done will help us to make best use of the available resources. Certainly, although many people criticised us when the City Hospital closed initially, it is recognised that, when you have two hospitals in such close proximity, you are better to have your consultants based on the one site where they can support each other, provide cover for each other and ensure that there is adequate cover on a 24/7 basis.

Caitriona Ruane (Sinn Féin, South Down)

The Minister may or may not be aware that there are 10 different recommendations. Given those 10 recommendations, will the Minister outline what additional resources will be allocated? We want to see safety for our patients right across the island of Ireland and, indeed, in this part of Ireland. Will the Minister let me know what additional resources he is going to provide to the hospital to ensure that it can fulfil the recommendations?

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

For the Belfast Trust's emergency departments, there were 7,700 attendances in September 2013. Of that number, two people had to wait for more than 12 hours. So, we can see that turnaround is working quite well. It is recognised that safety and performance are very good in the Royal Victoria Hospital and, indeed, across our hospital sites.

You talked about resources, and we have ensured that we have supported additional nurses across the system. We are very keen to support all the hospitals that are looking for additional consultants. Altnagelvin is struggling to get those additional consultants; nonetheless, we as a Department are supporting the trusts in identifying consultants, having those people there and having that qualitative medical resource to carry out the necessary performance. So, I think that there are actually a lot of good-news stories on emergency departments.

Antrim Area Hospital was constantly in the headlines when I came into office, but you are not hearing about that now because of the considerable good work that has been done by the people, the management, the staff, the doctors, the nurses and everyone else to ensure that they are turning that facility around and are using it well.

Anna Lo (Alliance, Belfast South)

3. asked the Minister of Health, Social Services and Public Safety for an assurance that 5 North, the medical assessment unit in Belfast City Hospital, will remain open and be further developed. (AQT 353/11-15)

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

The medical assessment unit works well in conjunction with the emergency department in the Royal Victoria Hospital. The medical assessment unit enables us to take in people who require treatment in which the City Hospital specialises. It enables that to happen in a way that is very convenient for the public and that causes less trauma for the individual who is receiving care. That is important.

I have not heard anything to suggest that there is any threat to the medical assessment unit. No one has mentioned that to me. The Member might have heard something different, but, as far as I am concerned, the medical assessment unit is working well and, to the best of my knowledge, that will continue to be the case.

Anna Lo (Alliance, Belfast South)

I thank the Minister for his assurance. Does he agree that not only does 5 North provide very necessary rapid and targeted early intervention for patients, especially older people, but it reduces overcrowding in A&E, which is in keeping with the aims of Transforming Your Care?

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

Direct admission to key wards such as that is very important. If GPs can refer people to medical assessment units and avoid emergency departments and all the others who are in those emergency departments, all the better, particularly for older people. As we know, the City Hospital specialises in urology, and an awful lot of older people will have infections in their bladders. So, it is very important that we can treat those people with dignity and respect. That is not always the case in the health service, I have to say, but we need to ensure that it is the case as often as possible. I would like it to always be the case that those people are treated with respect and dignity. I get very positive feedback on the medical assessment unit from people who go through the facility and into the City Hospital.

Trevor Lunn (Alliance, Lagan Valley)

4. asked the Minister of Health, Social Services and Public Safety, given his responsibilities, whether he still holds the view, expressed by him and by members of his party, that homosexuality is an illness treatable by medical or psychiatric means. (AQT 354/11-15)

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

I do not think that I ever said that.

Trevor Lunn (Alliance, Lagan Valley)

I will try to find the reference for him. I will ask the same question again: does he think that homosexuality is an illness treatable by medical or psychiatric means or does he think that, as has been expressed by another Member of his party, it is an abomination?

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

I do not think that it is an illness, in the first instance. I think that many people have various elements to their lives. When it comes to sexuality, many people who are heterosexual desire lots of other folks, and those of us who are married should not be doing that, so people can resist urges. I encourage people to take a sensible, rational view on these issues. I know that there have been a number of challenges about me and the various stances that I take. I will make it very clear that my stance on blood safety is purely about safety.

When it comes to my stance on adoption, I have just come from a midwifery-led unit in Lagan Valley, and all the people who were giving birth in that unit were women, and all those women were not impregnated by other women. So, whether one believes in God or in evolution, the natural order is for a man and a woman to have a child. Therefore, that has made my views on adoption and raising children very clear; it should be a man and a woman who raise a child. People can criticise me for that, and they can challenge me for that and say that it is backward. The truth is that still today, in this modern era, it is only a man and a woman who can produce a child. Therefore, it is in the best order for a man and a woman to raise a child.

Adrian McQuillan (DUP, East Londonderry)

5. asked the Minister of Health, Social Services and Public Safety for his assessment of the report by the economy and jobs initiative task and finish group. (AQT 355/11-15)

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

That work has run on from Connected Health and the work that our Department does with the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Investment. We want to ensure that every opportunity is taken to enable us to maximise the benefits to our economy associated with our healthcare. Healthcare accounts for around 10% of jobs in Northern Ireland and about 9% of spend in Northern Ireland. Therefore, it is very important that we identify how best we can use that resource, how we can encourage that resource to be spent and maximise the spend that happens in Northern Ireland in respect of the development of drugs, procedures and innovation, so that a lot of that takes place in Northern Ireland. We have done a lot of work on that. We have established an ecosystem, which will involve the universities, the health and social care trusts and the business sector. It is looked on quite enviously by lots of other bigger areas. For example, I am in negotiations with the state of New York on a memorandum of understanding on these issues. We have three-star reference status in the European Union, which is the highest status that has been awarded thus far. Thirteen regions fitted into it, and Northern Ireland is one of those. We are making huge progress on this front, and Northern Ireland is being seen in Europe and the United States of America as a place that is hugely progressive. Sometimes, our media wants us to be demonstrated to be a place that is backward and regressive, when others are looking to us and saying that Northern Ireland is leading the way.

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

That concludes topical questions to the Minister of Health. We now move to oral questions to the Minister of Health, Social Services and Public Safety. Questions 5, 8, 10 and 15 have been withdrawn.

Raymond McCartney (Sinn Féin, Foyle)

1. asked the Minister of Health, Social Services and Public Safety whether elective care was his Department's priority for the October monitoring round. (AQO 4985/11-15)

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

Elective care was one of three DHSSPS priorities in the October monitoring round, alongside clinical negligence settlements and Transforming Your Care (TYC) transitional funding. For the purposes of the monitoring round process, clinical negligence, at £20 million, was ranked as the top priority, as it is inescapable and, therefore, has a direct impact on the scope to meet the wider pressures across Health and Social Care (HSC) in 2013-14. The bid for the TYC transitional costs, at £18·7 million, was ranked second on the basis that it is the most important strategic change programme being undertaken within DHSSPS. The bid for elective care was ranked third. It is aimed at assisting in addressing backlogs in elective care waiting times across a range of specialties.

However, the final prioritisation of bids is ultimately determined by the Executive when they approve the outcome of each monitoring round. I received some £14 million of my £26 million bid for elective care in the October monitoring round, and intend to resubmit the bid for the remaining £12 million in the January monitoring round.

Raymond McCartney (Sinn Féin, Foyle)

Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle, agus buíochas leis an Aire as an fhreagra sin. I thank the Minister for his answer. Can the Minister enlighten us as to how the Executive changed his priorities, as he outlined them, from clinical negligence, Transforming Your Care and elective care, to come out in a different order when it came to resources?

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

It might be above my pay grade to do that. I ask for the money, and they give it to me. I ask for it for my priorities, and they might see it somewhat differently. Very often, that is the case, and it has been the case in other Departments that I have been in. I think that it is the case for other Ministers in other Departments, too. Sometimes what we might see as a priority, others might view differently and look on it more strategically, in a sense, and think that a wider view can be taken by the Executive than by a single Department.

Paula Bradley (DUP, Belfast North)

I thank the Minister for his answer so far. What progress has been made with elective waiting times in his time as Minister?

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

The number waiting for an outpatient appointment, for example, has been cut by 4,182 since June 2011, with excess waits reduced by 12,277. The number waiting for an inpatient admission is down by 7,361 compared with what it was in June 2011, with excess waits reduced by 5,936. However, I think it is very important that I state here today that we are not complacent. Things are going in the right direction, but there is considerably more work to be done. We have excellent people working in our health and social care trusts and our systems, turning things around very, very well. We need to keep the momentum going, build on the momentum and ensure that we can continue to reduce waiting times to a time in which people should reasonably expect to be seen, without having to have excessive waits.

Dominic Bradley (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Newry and Armagh)

Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. Will the community care and treatment centre play a role in providing healthcare in Newry in the future?

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

Obviously, we have said that we would support Newry with a proposed £40 million health treatment centre. That is something that has been advertised and on which we are working. I know that there has been some degree of reluctance from some of the GPs on the issue. I think that we need to iron that out, because if Newry does not want to proceed with that, there are other places that, obviously, would. If Newry wants to do something that is a bit different, which might involve doing something close to the existing GP site that has, I know, a Roads Service car park close to it, and involve us doing a scheme there, that is something that we would be happy to look at. We are not interested in imposing solutions on Newry; we are interested in delivering solutions with Newry, and that is something that we will continue to do.

Danny Kinahan (UUP, South Antrim)

I thank the Minister for his answer. Does he agree that elective treatment using National Health Service assets in a planned fashion can be better value for money than contracting out healthcare?

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

Yes, I do. However, in some instances where you do not have the requisite consultants or surgeons, are we to sit and wait until new people are appointed? Very often, the market can be quite limited and, therefore, the appointment process can be quite slow. Do we allow others to wait while that happens? Or, will we go out and ensure that people get care at the appropriate time? I am not prepared to say that I will never use the private sector. By using the private sector occasionally, we can ensure that waiting lists are shorter and that people do not suffer pain for longer because of someone's socialist viewpoint that the private sector is evil and we can never use it, whereas the public sector is good and we should always use it. We need to be practical, sensible and rational as we move forward and use services that are best value for money and can deliver for us within an appropriate time frame.

Michaela Boyle (Sinn Féin, West Tyrone)

2. asked the Minister of Health, Social Services and Public Safety how he will reduce the current waiting times for an occupational therapist referral visit in the Western Health and Social Care Trust area, which is currently approximately 18 weeks. (AQO 4986/11-15)

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

Occupational therapists (OTs) use a variety of activities and/or equipment — for example, specialist seating, wheelchairs and adaptations — to enable recovery after illness or injury and to support independent living and health. A number of actions have been taken forward over the past few years to improve waiting times. Standardised access criteria are in place across Northern Ireland to ensure that all trusts have a consistent approach. The Health and Social Care Board (HSCB) has commenced a capacity and demand analysis for occupational therapy services in the Western Trust to understand more clearly the reasons for the deterioration in waiting times. In the interim, the HSCB has provided non-recurring funding to the Western Trust, which is expected to ensure that the current waiting time for assessment is reduced and that, by March 2014, no patient will have been waiting more than nine weeks for assessment.

Michaela Boyle (Sinn Féin, West Tyrone)

I thank the Minister for his response and welcome the standardising of waiting times. Will the Minister also assure the House that a process will be put in place to ensure that reports from OT visits will be speedily completed and forwarded to the appropriate bodies without undue delay?

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

I think that occupational therapy is hugely important. Anyone who knows someone who has received the services of an occupational therapist will recognise how important it is. Many people need reablement and many have suffered major traumatic incidents in their healthcare. A few years ago, the OT waiting time target was 26 weeks. It was then reduced to 13 weeks, and I have reduced it to nine weeks. It is important that we seek to ensure that we can deliver. In March this year, 127 people were waiting for more than nine weeks. That is transformationally better than a few years ago. I remember, as an MLA, often trying to get an OT to visit someone who had had a stroke. The person had fallen quite ill and was unable to get about as they had previously and so forth, so they really needed this, but it was delayed.

I am not responsible for other Departments. When an OT provides a report to, for example, the Housing Executive, it is for the Housing Executive to respond within an appropriate time frame. I am responsible for the trusts. So, if OTs refer issues to trusts and the equipment does not come out in time, I would certainly be happy to ensure that it does, but I do not believe that to be the case.

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

I thank the Member for the question. I launched Northern Ireland's first allied health professionals' strategy, and a lot of work has already taken place in implementing that. A good example of the work of OTs in delivering on the strategy is reablement. OTs are working in and, in many cases, leading reablement teams in the community. The reablement model promotes greater independence. It reduces unnecessary reliance on statutory services. The ethos of reablement is to provide planned, short-term care support that is person-centred and promotes daily independence in personal and domestic activities.

John Dallat (Social Democratic and Labour Party, East Londonderry)

I thank the Minister for his answers and acknowledge his endeavours to reduce the waiting time for assessment. Does the Minister agree that bed blocking is still an issue and that the waiting time for assessment contributes to that, hence displacing other patients?

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

The issue of bed blocking is considerably improved and was improving even before I became Minister. We all recognise it as a problem and one to which the trusts have, I think, been trying to respond.

It might still happen on occasions, but we are in a considerably better place. In many ways, we are envied across the UK because we have a wholly integrated health and social care system. In England, councils and local authorities look after social services. The result of that is that, when people get out of hospital, councils very often do not facilitate things as quickly as they should because the cost burden is on them. When it comes to costs being transferred, there is not the same issue with our integrated system. It is, of course, hugely beneficial, for individuals and hospitals, to get people out of hospital at the appropriate time. Therefore, bed blocking is not the issue that it was a few years ago, but I suspect that it may still happen on occasions. However, I think that the system works relatively efficiently.

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

Mr Wells is not in his place to ask question 3.

Caitriona Ruane (Sinn Féin, South Down)

4. asked the Minister of Health, Social Services and Public Safety to outline the terms of reference for the independent, expert-led inquiry into child sexual exploitation. (AQO 4988/11-15)

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

As the member will be aware, in an oral statement to the House on 5 November, I announced the appointment of Professor Kathleen Marshall to lead the inquiry into child sexual exploitation. I also informed Members that, as is normal practice, Professor Marshall was given the opportunity to shape and agree the final terms of reference for the inquiry. As agreed, the inquiry will seek to establish the nature of child sexual exploitation in Northern Ireland and measure the extent to which it occurs; examine the effectiveness of current cross-sectoral child safeguarding and protection arrangements and measures to prevent and tackle child sexual exploitation; make recommendations on the future actions that are required to prevent and tackle child sexual exploitation and who should be responsible for those actions; and report the findings of the inquiry within one year of its commencement.

In addition, the inquiry should consider specific safeguarding and protection issues for looked-after children, taking into account the ongoing thematic review by the Safeguarding Board for Northern Ireland (SBNI); seek the views of children and young people in Northern Ireland and other key stakeholders; and engage with parents to identify the issues that they are facing and seek their views on what needs to be done to help them to keep their children safe from the risk of child sexual exploitation.

The inquiry will not focus on the circumstances of and/or responses to the 22 children who are part of the ongoing police investigation that is known as Operation Owl. That will be the focus of the separate thematic review that is being undertaken by the SBNI. However, available learning that is generated from that review will be taken into account by the inquiry.

Caitriona Ruane (Sinn Féin, South Down)

Go raibh maith agat as an fhreagra sin. I thank the Minister for his answer. It is unfortunate that he did not go to the Committee before coming to the House because if he had, he may have learned something, and we may have a better inquiry. What guarantees can he give to assure the House that the inquiry will be more than a report?

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

There are three inquiries. The police investigation is happening, and it is important that they conduct their course of work. There is the thematic inquiry into the 22 cases. The inquiry that I have launched will look at the overall scenario and how we could do things better, and it will also look at policy.

Perhaps I would have learned something from the Committee. The Member may think that the former Scottish commissioner for children's health, who is an eminent professor and hugely qualified to conduct that work, also needs to learn something. I think that Professor Marshall is very well placed to conduct the inquiry. She is a very knowledgeable individual who has the requisite skills to identify the issues that we should look at. I tend to take a lot of cognisance of what she might have to say.

Gregory Campbell (DUP, East Londonderry)

Given that there is a land border between Northern Ireland and the Irish Republic, will the Minister outline what steps might be taken in the future to try to ensure that cross-border child sexual exploitation is prevented as far as possible?

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

Predators, of course, do not recognise borders as blocking them. They will, in fact, often use borders to assist them. It is important that we are aware of that and work closely with our colleagues in the Republic of Ireland to ensure that the border does not become a barrier to child protection. We have a cross-border work programme that is taken forward by a cross-border steering group on child protection. It was agreed in July 2012. The steering group has identified key areas in which, together, our respective jurisdictions can continue to make significant progress over the next few years.

The work programme will promote shared learning and contribute further to improving practice in specific areas of safeguarding and child protection, focusing on five work streams.

Work stream 1 is a knowledge exchange forum, which will promote continued learning through the use of research and evidence-based practice. Work stream 2 is quality and effectiveness, through which we will progress initiatives to build workforce capacity and improve the quality and effectiveness of social work and social care work, interventions and practice.

Work stream 3 deals with the deaths of children in care and will contribute to the learning about the deaths of children in care by developing an overview and analysis of the features of deaths of children in care in both jurisdictions. Work stream 4 is cultural competence and safeguarding and will assist in developing common guidance for practitioners who work with other cultures. Work stream 5 deals with specialist services, exploring opportunities to develop cross-border specialisms.

So, there is clearly a course of work that is being done. We have seen evidence in recent days of those who have sought to use the border to evade prosecution. I am glad that that was overcome and that, recently, someone was prosecuted for that very action.

Fearghal McKinney (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast South)

I thank the Minister for his replies thus far. While these inquiries are taking place, what interim processes are there to ensure that children in care are appropriately looked after and not put in vulnerable positions?

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

The children are being looked after and, as far as possible, the staff in our residential care homes will seek to ensure that they are not put in vulnerable positions. Some of the children will believe that they are in a loving relationship. I believe that, sometimes, that is misplaced. In some instances it may be a 16-year-old with a 19-year-old — try to convince them that it is anything other than their boyfriend and so forth — but it is still wrong. We need to assist the young people in their learning and knowledge of the risks that might be brought upon them.

There is much more serious stuff out there as well. Children might go to party houses where high levels of abuse take place. The majority of people in this House, if not all, would find that wholly repellent. We need to ensure that we protect children as far as possible from those circumstances.

If learning becomes obvious to us during the inquiry, we will not wait until the end of the inquiry to implement it. Implementation will take place immediately where we are advised that we should change procedures for the benefit of children.

Roy Beggs (UUP, East Antrim)

In your September statement on child sexual exploitation, you indicated that you were open to the involvement of the Education and Training Inspectorate for the benefit and protection of children. Given the apparently dysfunctional relationship between you and the Minister of Education, what makes you so confident that he will approve the involvement of the Education and Training Inspectorate in working with the inquiry?

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

The Education and Training Inspectorate helped us to draw up the guidelines. What makes me confident is that Minister O'Dowd told me he would. [Laughter.]

Chris Lyttle (Alliance, Belfast East)

6. asked the Minister of Health, Social Services and Public Safety for an update on making a decision on the future of paediatric cardiac surgery services for Belfast. (AQO 4990/11-15)

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

I met the Republic of Ireland’s Minister for Health, Dr James Reilly TD, on 12 September 2013 to continue my discussions on the potential for a two-centre model that would provide paediatric cardiac surgery services in Belfast and Dublin. Consideration of that proposal is continuing at an official level to determine whether such a model would be feasible. I will inform the Assembly of the outcome when I announce my decision on the future commissioning of that service, which I hope to do as soon as possible.

Chris Lyttle (Alliance, Belfast East)

I thank the Minister for his answer. Does he accept that now, more than a year since restrictions were placed on children's heart surgery in Belfast, the lack of clarity and the ongoing delay of an outcome causes increasing distress for families? Will he give us a more concrete timescale for the completion of the review? Does he accept that an all-Ireland network of children's heart surgery, with a footprint in Belfast, is what is needed?

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

I accept that the delay is undesirable and that it causes further consternation to families. That is not what we wish to have. However, I need people to cooperate with me and to be agreeable to what this House wants, and that is what we have been working on. That is a course of work that will have to be seen through if we are to be successful.

I urge people to be patient a little longer. Time is of the essence. Professor Wood leaves his role in December, so we need to have something in place before that happens. That is a course of work that we are continuing to engage in. I hope to be in a position to give the House a full update in the not-too-distant future, bearing in mind that we are losing one of our surgeons in December.

Ian McCrea (DUP, Mid Ulster)

The Minister will be aware of joint services such as those that operate in Toronto and Ottawa and other parts of North America. Has he given any consideration as to how that type of model could work with regard to how the service is delivered in Northern Ireland and in the Irish Republic?

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

We have, and Minister Reilly and I agreed that we would look for some international expertise that could give us advice on the issue. On a recent trip to Boston, I met an eminent surgeon who has overall responsibility for around 1,000 procedures taking place in his hospital. We are jointly seeking his help to give us advice and to provide advice to the clinicians as to how best we can continue to support the children in Northern Ireland who require congenital cardiac surgery. I think that that has the potential to be a significant advance forward.

Karen McKevitt (Social Democratic and Labour Party, South Down)

Does the Minister think that the new funding recently announced by the Minister of Finance and Personnel for the new children's hospital will change the context of the debate?

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

No. I think that we will be able to provide a better facility for people to be cared in. However, at this moment, the care received, certainly in cardiology, is world class and second to none. The care provided in the surgical side, again, is a very safe service. We want to ensure that we can continue to provide the full cardiology service and continue to provide a surgical service in Belfast.

Pat Sheehan (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

7. asked the Minister of Health, Social Services and Public Safety whether the new regional children’s hospital will allow for children’s heart services to be located on site. (AQO 4991/11-15)

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

The future provision of children’s heart services at the new children’s hospital is a matter for the Belfast Health and Social Care Trust in conjunction with the Health and Social Care Board. However, I can advise that the new children’s hospital has been sized to accommodate children’s heart services, and it is the intention that all paediatric cardiology services currently provided in the Royal Belfast Hospital for Sick Children will be provided in the new children’s hospital.

Pat Sheehan (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle agus gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as ucht a fhreagra. I thank the Minister for his answer. I wonder whether he can provide us with clarity around a timeline for a decision on children's heart services.

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

The clarity is that a timeline has to be delivered before the end of December. Therefore, I will certainly bring something to the House in this term to make very clear how we are proceeding with congenital cardiac care.

I am delighted with the funding that is coming from the Minister of Finance and Personnel for the children's hospital. It is something that I have been working on consistently for the past two and a half years. The facility is not as good as we would like it to be with regard to the care that is being provided for our children and young people. When I took the Minister down there, he had the same reaction and has supported the proposal.

I was criticised some time ago for saying that roads were not as big a priority as other things. I know that Mr Allister and others criticised me for that. This, I believe, is the number one priority for capital spending in Northern Ireland, and it should be the number one priority, because it is wrong that children are being cared for in a facility that is wholly substandard in its physical capacity. I am delighted that we are able to respond very positively on this front.

Trevor Clarke (DUP, South Antrim)

I thank the Minister for his answers thus far. I am pleased to hear that paediatric services will be retained in Belfast, but will he say more about the outline business case for the new hospital in Belfast?

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

The Belfast Trust has developed an outline business case for the construction of a new 155-bed regional children's hospital. In addition to the services currently provided in the Royal Belfast Hospital for Sick Children (RBHSC), bed and theatre modelling for a new hospital also includes provision for services for children up to 16 years of age, with flexibility to increase that to 18, as the outcome of the review of paediatric services recommends; activity currently undertaken outside the RBHSC; and activity currently transferred to other facilities because of insufficient capacity there. In addition to the enabling works and decants to facilitate the development of the hospital, site infrastructural updates including an energy centre are required. As I said, existing facilities are cramped and unfit to deliver healthcare in the 21st century. It is critical that we do all these things.

A lot of children in hospital, when they become teenagers, are transferred to adult hospitals, so there could be 14- and 15-year-olds lying side-by-side with very elderly people. It is not a good mix for either the young person or the older person, so expanding and extending the service that is offered at the children's hospital will, I believe, be positively received.

Samuel Gardiner (UUP, Upper Bann)

My party warmly welcomes the Minister's announcement on the children's hospital. Can I push you a wee bit further, Minister, and ask you to tell us when it will come into operation? Will it be this year, or do we have to wait until next year or the following year?

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

That is a very good question, Mr Gardiner. By the time we go through all the processes and engage in decant and demolition — the hospital will have to be rebuilt on the existing site — and engage in the development and commissioning of the facility, it will be 2019. I would like that time frame to be shorter, but that is a reality that I have to accept. It is all the more incumbent on us to get the announcement out there and develop the funding cycles to ensure that all the funding is available. Minister Hamilton has made an initial £15·5 million available, which gives us the basis to move forward and complete all the consultancy work that will take place beforehand and allow us to start the programme that will ensure that we have a state-of-the-art children's hospital that we in Northern Ireland can be proud of.

Anna Lo (Alliance, Belfast South)

9. asked the Minister of Health, Social Services and Public Safety, given the recent cases around severe foetal abnormalities, what steps he is taking to revise the guidelines on abortion for women whose pregnancies have been diagnosed with severe foetal abnormalities. (AQO 4993/11-15)

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

I am aware of the interest that the Member has in this area, and I thank her for responding to the Department’s consultation on the draft guidance. I remind her that the law in Northern Ireland does not address the issue of lethal foetal abnormality. It is clearly a difficult area, and we must fully support our health staff. However, they can act only within the law, and, ultimately, only the Executive and the Assembly can change the law.

My views on the issue are well known. I am opposed to the liberalisation of the law, but I will consider any proposals put forward by the Minister of Justice that seek to address some of the issues that have recently come to the fore. As the Member is aware, the position on the termination of pregnancy in Northern Ireland is provided for in the body of criminal law as it has been interpreted in the courts. Any guidance document produced by my Department can only reflect existing law; it cannot change it. The recent consultation has been successful in highlighting the concerns that health professionals and others have about this sensitive issue. I have asked officials to consider all the consultation responses, with the aim of producing a document capable of supporting our health staff as they deal, every day, with difficult issues faced by women and their families, often in tragic circumstances.

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

Order, Members. That concludes Question Time.