Northern Ireland Assembly, 3 December 2013

302 contributions from 61 members. The official report.

Ministerial Statements

Mark Durkan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

With your permission, Mr Speaker, and in compliance with section 52 of the Northern Ireland Act 1998, I wish to make the following statement on the eighteenth meeting of the North/South Ministerial Council in environment sectoral format, which was held in Armagh on Wednesday 30 October 2013. The statement has been agreed with Mr Kennedy. I would like to start by apologising to the House for the late arrival of copies of the statement. If it is any consolation, I did not get mine too far ahead of you, but I assure the House that, in future, Members will have them in a much more timely fashion.

Danny Kennedy MLA, Minister for Regional Development, and I represented the Northern Ireland Executive at the meeting. The Irish Government were represented by Phil Hogan TD, Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government. Minister Hogan chaired the meeting.

Ministers noted that the Council approved the terms of reference for an all-island air quality research study into the issue of airborne pollution from residential smoky coal combustion at its meeting on 10 July 2013. The Council welcomed the fact that the procurement process for the study has been initiated, and the study is expected to be completed by May 2014.

The Council welcomed the publication of the revised waste management strategy, 'Delivering Resource Efficiency', in October 2013. Ministers noted publication of the 'All Island Bulky Waste Reuse Best Practice Management Feasibility Study' in July 2013. The Council noted that the North West Region Waste Management Group appointed a preferred bidder on 23 May 2013 and is working towards reaching contract close.

Ministers noted that the Northern Ireland carrier bag levy for single-use bags is to be kept at 5p, and legislation, if approved by the Assembly, will extend the cost to low-cost reusable carrier bags from April 2014.

Ministers noted that revisions are being made to the waste tyre action plan to incorporate the Environment Committee's twelve recommendations.

The Council noted that the waste repatriation programme of work for 2013-14 has been agreed, and Ministers noted that site investigation works have been carried out at the first site in County Tyrone and that the removal of waste commenced early last month. The Council noted that Dublin City Council has established a framework agreement for the disposal of repatriated waste, and public procurement for the haulage of the repatriated waste to disposal facilities is continuing. The Council noted that joint enforcement action to deal with illegal operators is a priority for both Environment Ministers, and their Departments continue to target resources on that.

The Council noted that coordination continues between both jurisdictions in relation to preparations for the second-cycle river basin management plans under the EU water framework directive. Ministers welcomed the continued coordination in relation to the Clean Coast and Coastcare schemes and the coordination in relation to the symposium on 28 November 2013. The Council also welcomed the presentation of Blue Flag awards in both jurisdictions but noted that there had been a decrease since the previous year due to the stricter award criteria set out in the revised bathing water directive.

Ministers welcomed the continued success of the QUESTOR research partnership in securing European funding for environmental science and technology projects that involve partners in Ireland, Northern Ireland, Europe and globally.

The Council noted that the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) is currently finalising the terms of reference for a comprehensive research study of the environmental impacts of hydraulic fracturing or fracking. It also noted that the Northern Ireland Environment Agency’s second state of the environment report is due for publication by the end of 2013. The Ministers noted that the EPA is in the process of developing a new research programme for the period 2014-2020. The Council noted that legislation currently before the Oireachtas that will enable Science Foundation Ireland to provide research funding on an all-island basis is due to be enacted by the year end.

The Council agreed to hold the next environment meeting on 8 May 2014.

Anna Lo (Alliance, Belfast South)

I thank the Minister for his statement. I welcome the fact that the Minister mentioned, at the meeting, the incorporation of the Environment Committee's recommendations on the action plan for used tyres. At the meeting, the Minister also mentioned that the commencement date for the extension of the cost to reusable carrier bags will be from April 2014. I am not sure if the Minister is aware of this, but we are seeking his approval — we have been working with officials — to delay the commencement of the carrier bags levy until January 2016. Can the Minister clarify that point?

Mark Durkan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

I thank the Chair of the Environment Committee for her question. I am fully aware of the thoughts of the Environment Committee on the issue. You are looking to persuade me to extend this to January 2015.

Anna Lo (Alliance, Belfast South)

Yes, 2015. Sorry.

Mark Durkan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

In which case, you will not have to try too hard; in fact, I have already been persuaded. However, today, I am giving a report of the meeting that I had with my counterpart in the Republic of Ireland. I was unaware of that at that stage.

Alastair Ross (DUP, East Antrim)

The Minister referred to the carrier bag levy. Was there any discussion of the impact that it has had not on the reduction of plastic bags at the checkout but on the sales of other types of plastic bag being reported by supermarkets? Also, has there been any reported increase in shoplifting since the introduction of the carrier bag levy?

Mark Durkan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

Thank you, Mr Ross. We have seen the impact of the carrier bag levy, certainly, in the reduction of single-use carrier bags. However, compared with other jurisdictions, we have not seen a huge increase in the reuse of reusable bags. In fact, because some of the low-cost reusable bags are so cheap and are not much dearer than a single-use bag, our fear is that they are becoming the new throwaway bag, if you like, and that many people are paying the 5p or 6p for them without necessarily reusing them. That was completely counterproductive. Given the fact that they were made for multiple uses, they are actually worse for the environment than the original 5p or low-cost bags. They are much less biodegradable. That is why I have made the decision to extend the levy. Although I am keeping it at 5p, I am extending that levy to low-cost reusable bags under the value of 20p. Hopefully, when we attach more value to them, people will start to reuse them more and, therefore, there will be fewer plastic carrier bags in circulation.

Cathal Boylan (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as a ráiteas. I welcome the Minister's statement, but I am somewhat disappointed that road safety was not mentioned. Will he bring that forward in the next plenary session? Could he outline to date what new measures he has been working on with the other jurisdiction to reduce fatalities on the roads?

Mark Durkan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

Go raibh maith agat, Mr Boylan. I am sorry that the Member is disappointed that I have not mentioned road safety in the statement. Road safety was not an issue at the meeting in environment sectoral format. However, last week, when I met Leo Varadkar in transport sectoral format, road safety was to the fore. We share our air and water, and we share our roads. Therefore, it is essential that we have cooperation and collaboration by both jurisdictions on issues of huge importance, such as road safety. That is, certainly, one that is very close to my heart and, I am sure, that of many other Members.

Work is ongoing between jurisdictions, particularly on the mutual recognition of penalty points. I hope to bring forward a road traffic safety improvements Bill early next year that will deal with other issues around graduated learning programmes and bring us into greater harmony with the Republic on drink driving limits. That issue is recognised by the Ministers with responsibility for the environment and transport in the Republic. I look forward to working with them on that.

Alban Maginness (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast North)

I thank the Minister for his comprehensive statement. This meeting and previous meetings underline the importance of having the environment at the very heart of North/South relations. I note that, on page 1, under "Waste Management", it states:

"The Council welcomed the publication of the revised Waste Management Strategy “Delivering Resource Efficiency” in October 2013."

Will the Minister outline the main thrust of the revised waste management strategy? Is there a common approach throughout the island of Ireland to that strategy?

Mark Durkan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

Thank you, Mr Maginness. The revised waste management strategy takes forward policies that are aimed at moving Northern Ireland from resource management to resource efficiency. The key targets and policies include 50% household waste recycling by 2020; 70% construction and demolition waste recycling by 2020; a 60% recycling target for local authority-collected municipal waste by 2020; higher recycling targets for packaging waste; and landfill restriction on separately collected food waste from households and businesses.

As regards a commonality of approach with Ireland, the revised waste management strategy takes into consideration the new and emerging waste strategies across these islands and not just on this island. For example, as I outlined, my Department is developing proposals to ban separately collected food waste from households and businesses going to landfill, but the development of a landfill restriction on food waste will provide a degree of commonality with our neighbours.

The Department is also exploring the potential for an all-island reuse quality mark for future proposal to the NSMC.

Danny Kinahan (UUP, South Antrim)

I thank the Minister for his statement. It has been a little while since I was on the Environment Committee, but, when we talk about the used tyre action plan and the 12 recommendations, are we close to having in place a system whereby all movement of illegal tyres on both sides of the border can be dealt with so that we know exactly who can deal with them, whether that is the PSNI, the NIEA or councils? Do we have a thorough system for stopping the movement of illegal tyres?

Mark Durkan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

Thank you, Mr Kinahan. I hope that we are close to that. The all-island used tyre survey has been published, and the findings of the report indicate that, in 2010-11, there were almost 19,000 tons of used tyres in Northern Ireland and 39,000 in the Republic of Ireland. The majority of those tyres were recycled, but other management routes were reported on in the report. The recommendations in the final report focus mainly on data collection, management and reporting, and those areas are being taken forward by the Northern Ireland Environment Agency, the used tyres working group and the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government in Ireland.

Barry McElduff (Sinn Féin, West Tyrone)

Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. Ba mhaith liom buíochas a ghabháil leis an Aire. I thank the Minister for his statement and for his answers so far. I want to focus on the cross-border movements of waste North/South. The Minister threw some bait out to me with his reference to County Tyrone. Site investigation works have been carried out at the first site in County Tyrone. Where precisely is that site? What cost is associated with removing and returning that waste? What is the scale of the job and the timeline for completion?

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

That was four questions, Minister. [Laughter.]

Mark Durkan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

OK. The location of the site is beside County Derry. I will happily speak to the Member later about the finer details of the site and the costs associated with its clear-up. The issue of waste crossing borders is a very serious one, and we take it very seriously. I am glad to say that we are making progress on waste repatriation.

You will be aware of the commitment in the road map agreement with our counterparts in the Republic to undertake repatriation of waste. As I said, 15 sites have been identified with an estimated total of a quarter of a million tons of waste to be recovered. Works began in 2010, and the planned commitment of completing two sites a year has continued. Although six sites have been completed since 2010, a total of almost 64,000 tons of waste has been repatriated, and three further sites are scheduled for waste clearance this year. I have identified one in Tyrone, and there is one in Fermanagh. I will speak to you later on the detail of it.

Pat Ramsey (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

I welcome the Minister's statement. Although road safety did not form part of the formal statement to the House, the Minister referred to the importance of road safety. I welcome the television advertisements, which are having an increasing impact. Our constituents, Mr Speaker, are involved in and contribute to that programme. Will the Minister support me in making a clear call to drivers across Northern Ireland not to drink and drive in any circumstances, particularly as our roads in Northern Ireland become much busier coming up to Christmas? I plea for all people to drive safely on the roads.

Mark Durkan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

Thank you, Mr Ramsey, for giving me the opportunity — I was remiss not to use it when Mr Boylan gave me the opportunity earlier — to remind people of the importance of staying safe on our roads, particularly as we enter the Christmas period, a time that is all too sadly and all too often associated with death and destruction on our roads. I acknowledge Mr Ramsey's point about the television advertisement campaign run by my Department. I again underline the importance of that medium in driving down deaths and serious injuries on our roads. Through improved education, more enforcement and improved engineering, we have seen the rates of road deaths in Northern Ireland come down very well, and now we are one of the safer countries in Europe as regards deaths on our roads. However, we cannot be complacent, and we must continue to reinforce the message of keeping people safe on our roads and people taking responsibility to keep themselves and other road users safe.

Jim Allister (Traditional Unionist Voice, North Antrim)

I note the reference to the Republic's Environmental Protection Agency conducting what is called a comprehensive research study of fracking. Are we contributing to the cost of that? Is that really just a stalling measure, given the Minister's ideological opposition to fracking, to put off the day when a decision might have to be made about that matter? What is the timescale?

Mark Durkan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

Thank you, Mr Allister, for telling me what my ideological position is. I have stated in the House and outside it that, in the absence of scientific evidence that fracking is safe and sustainable, I will not permit fracking or I will look unfavourably on any application from a company to introduce or start fracking here in the North. My Department co-funds that programme of research. It is important that we find out more facts about fracking or hydraulic fracturing. I do not have a timescale, but I will endeavour to find out when we expect results to come in from the research and then be analysed further.

Mark Durkan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

Thank you, Ms Brown. I assure the Member that there will be a communication strategy in place. Communication has been key to the success of phase 1 of the levy and will be key to the success of part 2. We need buy-in from the public. They need to realise why we are asking them to pay for bags. I think that they have embraced the carrier bag levy. We also need participation and buy-in from retailers. That is why I listened to the Committee about slowing down the phasing in of phase 2 in order to give retailers time to prepare for it.

Stephen Farry (Alliance, North Down)

With your permission, Mr Speaker, I will make a statement on a new strategic framework to tackle economic inactivity in Northern Ireland.

The Executive's Programme for Government includes a commitment from my Department and the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Investment (DETI) to develop and implement a strategy to reduce economic inactivity through skills, training, incentives and job creation. The statement has been agreed with my partner in that regard, the Minister of Enterprise, Trade and Investment.

To reflect the need to develop a holistic approach to tackling economic inactivity, the strategic framework has been developed in close partnership with other key stakeholders, including the Department for Social Development (DSD), Invest Northern Ireland and the Department of Health, Social Services and Public Safety (DHSSPS). I thank those Departments for their valuable contribution to date and their continued cooperation through the development and implementation phases.

Economic inactivity is a labour market classification referring to those neither in work nor unemployed. The baseline study analysed economic inactivity by charting labour market trends over recent decades and compared the situation in Northern Ireland with the Republic of Ireland and elsewhere in the United Kingdom. The current rate of economic inactivity in Northern Ireland is 27·4%. That equates to more than 315,000 people aged between 16 and 64 who are neither in work nor unemployed. I am sure that Members will agree that those figures outline the stark scale of the problem. That is the highest rate across all regions of the UK. Although some states and regions in the European Union and elsewhere in the developed world have higher rates, our situation is challenging in the international context. This level of economic inactivity has been a persistent feature of our economy over the past 30 years, falling within the range of 26% and 32%, irrespective of changes in the economic cycle. Economic inactivity represents a major structural problem in our economy, which, if unaddressed, will limit our ability to develop and transform our economic prospects.

Members may recall that I made a statement earlier this year on the outcomes of the baseline analysis of economic inactivity in Northern Ireland. The baseline study was the first step in the development of the strategic framework and provided a detailed analysis of inactivity in Northern Ireland. It may be useful, therefore, if I spend a few moments summarising the main findings of that study.

Through a detailed analysis of the factors contributing to economic inactivity and the characteristics of those classified as inactive, the study highlighted key areas that the strategic framework should address. Those include developing policy initiatives to help those who are long-term sick and/or persons with disabilities and those with family commitments to re-engage with the labour market; helping older workers get back into work through tackling discrimination barriers, increasing opportunities, and addressing issues of self-confidence and skill level; utilising the outcomes of in-depth analysis to pinpoint policy areas for intervention; developing initiatives with key stakeholders, including health professionals, that will motivate the economically inactive to adopt a positive approach to work; and helping women and lone parents to move into employment.

The overarching strategic goal is to contribute towards a stable and competitive employment rate of over 70% by 2023, through a reduction in the proportion of the working-age population classified as economically inactive. That reflects our assessment of what constitutes a more balanced labour market that engages people more fully and utilises their skills and talents. In particular, it is worth stressing that our focus is on the overall employment rate. We are not interested in simply reducing economic inactivity through shifting people into the unemployment category or moving people from unemployment into inactivity.

Although our future actions will take into account the changing landscape that arises from welfare reform, they will not be part of the proposed changes to the welfare reform system nor will they be motivated by them. Rather, our response is directed at addressing what has become a long-term structural problem within our economy.

Economic inactivity can be broken down into a number of categories, including those who are in full-time education or retired. Those who are in education are in a benign form of economic inactivity as they are developing their knowledge and skills so that, shortly, they can play a full role in the economy.

The target groups of the strategic framework comprise individuals who would benefit from entry into the labour market but are unable to do so because of health conditions or disabilities that limit their ability to work or family commitments that leave them dependent on out-of-work benefits. I fully recognise that not every person who falls into those categories will be in a position to engage with the labour market or will wish to do so. It is important to stress that the framework will be about supporting people to make transitions when they opt to do so; it is not about compulsion.

(Mr Deputy Speaker [Mr Dallat] in the Chair)

I fully recognise that the health condition of some in the former group may prevent their progression into work. However, I also recognise that many who have work-limiting conditions or are in a work-limiting situation might, with the right level of support, be able to participate in some way in the labour market.

For both groups, disengagement from working life can restrict the development of the individuals, their families and society. The barriers that the groups face are complex, ranging from a lack of skills and qualifications to psychological issues, such as low motivation and confidence. The barriers will also vary across the two target categories: for example, people who are inactive because of family commitments often have a higher level of skills than the group comprising people with disabilities. The strategic framework seeks, therefore, to address those barriers and ensure that wider attitudes to age or ill health do not impede progress towards work. A clear analysis of the underlying issues will assist the development of the most appropriate support interventions.

The achievement of the overarching goal of a stable and healthy employment rate of over 70% by 2023 will be dependent on the fulfilment of the following strategic objectives: reducing the level of economic inactivity because of work-limiting health conditions or disabilities by helping individuals in that group to move into employment; reducing the level of economic inactivity because of family commitments by helping lone parents in receipt of out-of-work benefits to move into employment; reducing the inflows to the economically inactive groups through initiatives designed to promote flexible working, extend working lives and maintain employment for individuals who develop health conditions or take on caring responsibilities; and contributing to a reduction in the unemployment rate to pre-recession levels through programmes designed to alleviate barriers to employment.

The achievement of these objectives will require a wide range of actions. The development process has been informed by international best practice to provide a strong foundation for its key actions. We have also, during the development of the strategic framework, undertaken a series of engagements with key stakeholders to better inform our proposals.

The initiatives can be summarised under four key themes. The first theme is increasing engagement and support by promoting the value of work and increasing access to pre-employment and in-work support through innovative new pilot projects, including an extensive mapping exercise of existing service provision to improve connectivity between services.

The second theme involves increasing job opportunities for the unemployed and the economically inactive through new support and incentives for employers to hire such individuals. We propose to facilitate that through a targeted and calibrated subsidy scheme for employers, which will include a guaranteed employment progression route for inactive individuals, through skills training and bespoke support, to promote sustained and meaningful employment.

The third theme involves addressing wider barriers by alleviating or removing wider societal issues that limit engagement with the labour market. That can be done through a series of new measures to help older workers and individuals with mental health issues to overcome disadvantages in the workplace.

The fourth theme is breaking the cycle of inactivity by reducing inflows into the economically inactive groups. That can be done by building on existing strategies and initiatives across government to improve education and employment outcomes for young people and improving advice and support for those at risk of disengaging from the labour market. Specific actions will include a detailed analysis of the options to better integrate health and work services in Northern Ireland.

It is important to recognise that, across the Executive, we are already taking action to support those in our key target groups to engage with the labour market. Indeed, an early initial action to be taken forward by the strategic framework will include new research to map the current service landscape in order to better connect with and improve outcomes for the target groups. We also propose to undertake a series of innovative pilot projects designed to test new approaches to re-engaging and supporting inactive individuals and to build upon the good work already being undertaken to address economic inactivity.

An early key focus of the new strategic framework will be to put in place a new regime to test a limited number of small-scale initiatives for their potential to improve outcomes for the economically inactive. This approach avoids prescriptive solutions and encourages new ideas and models of best practice, and those that are ineffective can be identified. The former can then be scaled up and the latter avoided at relatively little cost. In that way, public confidence and value for money in any wider policy implementation can be ensured.

The policy areas for the pilots to address will include: factors contributing to inactivity in urban and rural settings; skills deficits and barriers that limit engagement with the labour market; mobility issues faced by inactive groups; promotion of early-level opportunities for the low-skilled to enter the labour market; and opportunities for the low-skilled to improve their skills levels and to progress into sustained employment.

Those key themes are intended to link, in a coordinated way, a range of diverse actions across the Northern Ireland Executive that can contribute to a reduction in economic inactivity in Northern Ireland and lead to greater economic participation through the creation of a more diverse, skilled and active working age population. The social and economic benefits of that are great. However, the scale of the challenge that we are setting for ourselves should not be underestimated. To put that in context, reducing the overall rate of economic inactivity by 2% would require a transition of more than 23,000 individuals currently designated as inactive into employment.

In order to achieve those key objectives, it is proposed that a new task force will be formed to coordinate and drive outcomes across Departments and to work closely with the business and community and voluntary sectors to increase wider public awareness of the major issues surrounding inactivity. The task force will provide strategic leadership throughout the life cycle of the strategy, from implementation to monitoring and evaluating progress.

Government alone does not have all the answers. The strategic framework has been informed by discussions with key stakeholders. The next crucial stage of the development process will therefore be to publicly consult on the detail of our proposals with interested parties. We will undertake direct engagement with stakeholders early in the new year, and I take this early opportunity to urge everyone with an interest in this hugely important societal and economic issue to take the time to consider our proposals and to participate fully in the consultation exercise. The findings will then be used to inform the shape of the final strategy and the detailed outworkings of implementation. The development of a strategy to underpin those efforts is an unprecedented action by the Northern Ireland Executive, but I cannot overemphasise the fact that there is no quick-fix solution to the problem.

Efforts to address the multitude of complex factors and barriers that fuel the high rate of economic inactivity in Northern Ireland must be not only innovative but incrementally progressive to ensure that sustainable results are achieved. There are many individuals who, for a range of complex personal and health reasons, will never be able to fully engage with the labour market. However, there are also many individuals who, with the right level of support, will be able to participate in some meaningful work. We have a duty to do everything that we possibly can to help and support such individuals to meet their full potential to the benefit of the individual, given the positive factors associated with sustained employment, and to the benefit of Northern Ireland as a whole, given the economic and social advantages of having a more buoyant and competitive labour market.

Sustainable results cannot be delivered by government alone. We must coordinate the efforts of all key sectors and stakeholders to maximise the outcomes for those most in need of support. In doing so, I am confident that the final strategy will provide a long-term framework for greater economic participation in Northern Ireland.

Robin Swann (UUP, North Antrim)

I thank the Minister for his statement. Minister, your Department has 13 strategies, with 233 recommendations, and 10 implementation plans, with 197 recommendations or actions. That is 430 recommendations or actions in total. In the statement, you say that the framework should develop policy initiatives to help those who are long-term sick and/or persons with disabilities and those with family commitments to re-engage with the labour market; to help older workers back into work; to increase opportunities and address issues of self-confidence and skills levels; and to pinpoint specific policy areas for intervention. Are you seriously telling me that none of those 430 recommendations or actions is doing that? Given that our economic rate has been persistent for 30 years or more, do we know why previous approaches to the problem have not worked? Why are the current initiatives for tackling it not working? What is going to be different?

Stephen Farry (Alliance, North Down)

I thank the Chair of the Committee for his comments. His party has a certain difficulty with strategies, but they are important. They encapsulate policy, the various initiatives that we are taking forward and new initiatives that need to be added to those. I would like to think that the list that the Member read out is reflective of the good work that has been undertaken by my Department, particularly in recent years. We are seeking to cover a wide range of interventions. In saying that, however, it is important to stress that we need to avoid one-size-fits-all solutions. My Department is dealing with the full spectrum of people in Northern Ireland who will be engaging with the labour market through a whole range of ways and at different levels, including the education system. We need to have in place policies that address the particular circumstances that people find themselves in and the particular challenges that need to be addressed.

A lot of the programmes in place already in my Department tend to cover the people who fall into the category of unemployed. Most of the other projects elsewhere in these islands and around Europe also focus on people who are unemployed. There is a particularly strong focus on youth unemployment. Up to now, economic inactivity has been a much neglected issue. It has, essentially, been accepted by policymakers as a given. What we are now doing through the strategic framework is a Programme for Government commitment. The First Minister and deputy First Minister were very keen to ensure that we were taking forward an initiative in that regard. It seeks to address what has been a structural problem in our economy for a number of decades. It has been persistent, irrespective of the ups and downs of the economic cycle. What I mean by that is that, when we had a situation in which times were good and there has been pressure for people coming forward into jobs, we have tended to fill those gaps through people coming into Northern Ireland. In many ways, that is a welcome addition that has added much to our economy; it has been a net benefit. However, in that context, we have not been able to make any inroads into economic inactivity, which has pointed to the fact that there are deep structural problems that have to be addressed. We have an economic participation rate in the mid-60s per cent, which is the highest level of inactivity in the UK. That means that we have a large number of people who are not playing any active role in our economy. That is a resource that, in theory, should be available to us, but we are not fully drawing on it. As we look to transform our economy over the coming decades, we need to tap into that.

I fully recognise that there will be people who are not in a position to work. We are not talking about that. There are clear indications that tens of thousands of people who fall into that category would, with the right support, be willing to engage in the labour market. That is why the strategy provides added value. It will seek to address that. In doing that, it will draw on existing good practice across government to tie it together. After we do the mapping exercise, we will see where new interventions can follow from that.

Tom Buchanan (DUP, West Tyrone)

Minister, you mentioned in your statement key areas that the strategic framework should address. One of them is to develop initiatives with key stakeholders, including health professionals, that will motivate the economically inactive to adopt a positive approach to work and help them back into work. It is my understanding that you are reviewing whether you will continue to fund the condition management programme, which was set up for that specific purpose. Will you provide some clarity to the House on that matter?

Stephen Farry (Alliance, North Down)

I thank the Member for his comments. He is right to make a very close association between what we can do around health issues, including public health and mental health, and helping people who are inactive to move into employment. As we move forward with the eventual strategy after the public consultation, I would like to see scope emerging for greater collaboration, for example between GPs and the employment service on referrals, or maybe an even more integrated service. Some interesting pilot work has been conducted on that in parts of Great Britain.

The condition management programme is a more specific matter. We are reviewing that programme. It has evolved in recent years from being an intervention that helps people into employment into largely a health issue. Therefore, there has to be a discussion between my Department and the Department of Health, Social Services and Public Safety about how we can rebalance the intervention in that general area. Those discussions are ongoing, but the Member and others should not be under any illusion that we are not heavily committed to strong integration of employment service work and public health initiatives. On the back of this emerging strategy, we should be much better placed to link the two.

Phil Flanagan (Sinn Féin, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. Experience in Britain has shown that increased conditionality on people who are officially accepted as too sick to work but deemed by the discredited work capability assessment as able to prepare for work has left a group of ESA claimants particularly vulnerable. What additional safeguards or flexibilities does the Minister intend to incorporate in any employment programme to ensure that those people, many of whom are suffering from mental illness, are not subject to a harsh loss of benefits through punitive sanctions as a result of their participation in any proposed scheme?

Stephen Farry (Alliance, North Down)

I thank the Member for his question. He probably ran two or three different themes together, which I will try to work through. First, I want to stress that what we are taking forward as, today, a strategic framework and, in due course, a strategy, is not part of welfare reform. As I mentioned, this has been a structural issue in our economy for well over 30 years. There is an imperative, therefore, to address that. That said, what is happening in welfare reform is part of the landscape in which we are all working at present. I fully appreciate that decisions will be need to be taken by the Executive and the Assembly in due course about how welfare reform is taken forward in Northern Ireland. That is a very active and live debate.

On the question of how conditionality will impact on the strategy, welfare reform is approaching the issue by trying to move people from one form of conditionality to another. That, in some ways, can be something of an artificial move. This is about enabling people. I am not particularly interested in whether people fall under one welfare category or another, although that is a huge factor for them in the benefits they receive and the conditionality that they are under. This is about enabling people who are inactive to move into the world of work, and we know that more than 20,000 people are already indicating that, with the right support, they wish to take that journey.

The Member also mentioned the employment programme. He knows that I am moving from Steps to Work to Steps 2 Success. What we have in Northern Ireland is not a replication of the GB work programme. We have our own specific employment programme, which is designed for Northern Ireland. All along, we have been very keen to avoid what is known as the black box whereby, when people are referred to the programme, they are essentially out of sight, out of mind, and left with the providers to work with. We will have very strong codes of conduct in place, and we are encouraging a strongly individual approach to be taken by the new providers in working with individuals and their particular circumstances. Quite clearly, the barriers that people have been facing, whether inactivity or unemployment, will have to be taken into account very strongly in deciding on the approach that is adopted to try to find work for them.

Pat Ramsey (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

I warmly welcome the Minister's statement to the House this morning. Although the Minister of Enterprise, Trade and Investment has now left, clearly this is a joint initiative, and collaboration is needed by a number of Departments. Does the Minister acknowledge, as the Minister of Enterprise, Trade and Investment has done previously to me, that there is historical and consistent high levels of unemployment and economic inactivity in the north-west? There was a commitment to review unemployment, which has decreased across Northern Ireland but not in the north-west, where, unfortunately, levels are increasing. Will the Minister outline to the House any new initiatives for targeting those who are economically inactive and long-term unemployed in my constituency, in Derry and Strabane, who have been consistently long-term unemployed?

Stephen Farry (Alliance, North Down)

I thank the Member for his question and for his welcome for the framework to date. Obviously, the north-west benefits from all the schemes that are in place. I have been particularly encouraged by the uptake of some of our initiatives, in which the north-west has been performing better than other parts of Northern Ireland. That said, I recognise that we have pockets of concentrated unemployment in the north-west that are higher than the Northern Ireland average. The same goes for figures on economic inactivity. It is important that we make the distinction between the two.

What I can say to the Member to give him reassurance is that we are moving towards a system of competitive piloting to take forward the emerging strategy in due course. This will be about people coming forward with ideas across the whole range of interventions we have identified, whether it is transport, childcare issues, mentoring people, dealing with other mobility issues or trying to encourage better awareness of mental health issues in the workplace, to name a few of the different types of things that could come forward.

We also envisage that those things would come forward not necessarily on a pan-Northern Ireland basis but on a more local basis. So, it is entirely possible that proposals will come forward that are north-west specific and will seek to address some of the very particular circumstances that may have arisen in that part of our community. I would be delighted to see such proposals coming forward to see what type of solutions can be found.

On the back of that competitive piloting, we will be assessing where the biggest difference is being made and see which of the solutions can be scaled up, in the number of people being dealt with and in the geographical reach across Northern Ireland.

Alastair Ross (DUP, East Antrim)

In his statement, the Minister mentioned a number of subject areas in which he will be carrying out pilots. Will he give us more information about what those pilots will look like and whether he envisages them being rolled out across the whole of Northern Ireland or in specific areas?

Stephen Farry (Alliance, North Down)

I thank the Member for his question. It touches similar ground to that in Mr Ramsey's question. It is worth stressing that this is very much a new initiative that is being taken forward. It is not just new for the Northern Ireland Executive in the sense that this has not been done before; I am led to understand that this is new in the context of these islands. So, we are in fairly uncharted territory. This is also recognition of the fact that we believe that this is a major structural problem and that we need to get to grips with it one way or another.

I am conscious that there are pockets of good practice already, particularly in Great Britain — in London, Glasgow and in parts of Wales — that we can draw upon, but there is an absence of overarching strategies. We are coming to this from the advantage of having a commitment to the strategy.

Given that we are in relatively new territory, rather than putting in place Northern Ireland-wide initiatives, which will involve a lot of design work and political capital to get them in place and a lot of uncertainty about what is going to be effective, I and other Ministers think it would be more productive to launch a system of competitive piloting. We will be issuing calls in a range of areas such as support with respect to transport, childcare, mentoring, promotional activity in the workplace, and making employers aware of how to overcome various perceptions that may have built up. Through that system, we will see which pilots are most effective in delivering results and then see whether we can roll them out across Northern Ireland.

Barry McElduff (Sinn Féin, West Tyrone)

Go raibh maith agat. Maith thú, a LeasCheann Comhairle. Does the Minister agree that the participation of lone parents in any back-to-work scheme will have to be underpinned by regulations that reflect their additional responsibilities as carers? There will have to be flexible arrangements so that the interests of children are paramount at all times.

Stephen Farry (Alliance, North Down)

I very much agree with the thrust of what the Member said. I have learnt to my cost that it is wise always to agree with Mr McElduff for the sake of a quieter life.

We have to be conscious that there are two main categories of people who we are trying to assist. The first category is those who are suffering with long-term sickness or disabilities. The other is those with family or caring commitments, who are often lone parents. It is worth spelling out that lone parents are predominantly female and that the overall economic participation figures for males and females vary considerably; I think that there is an almost 10% differential. I previously made a statement to the Assembly on that issue. It is important that we ensure that we maximise the use of resources across both genders to best effect. We are trying to address any imbalances that we find in our economy.

For people with caring responsibilities, it is not simply a case of saying, "There is a job. Off you go and access it." We have to put in place the support arrangements to ensure that they are able to do that. Obviously, the Executive are committed to bringing forward a childcare strategy, which will provide a considerable degree of support at a high level. There will also be a need for other support measures to be put in place. Flexible working goes hand in hand with that. The Member will also be aware that we will bring forward legislation in due course on parental leave and flexible working. That should also make a contribution in this area. It is also important to bear in mind that, at present, and even under future changes with the introduction of universal credit, there is an acknowledgement of the particular situation that women with caring responsibilities find themselves in.

Sandra Overend (UUP, Mid Ulster)

I thank the Minister for his statement. The lack of employment opportunities is a key issue that needs to be addressed before we can move people out of economic inactivity. The Minister proposes a subsidy scheme for employers, which will include a guaranteed employment progression route for inactive individuals through skills training and bespoke support. Can the Minister provide some detail on how that will work and what will be the cost? Who will pay for it? Can the Minister also tell us whether the proposals will feed into the review of apprenticeships?

Stephen Farry (Alliance, North Down)

I thank the Member for her questions. To address the first point, this will not happen in a vacuum or on a stand-alone basis; it is part of the wider efforts of the Executive to create jobs. As we look to transform and grow our economy over the next number of years, it is important that we have schemes that work in tandem with each other. In particular, we could see a situation in the near future where there is pressure around employment. In the past, we have seen situations where that has been the case, but we have not been able to tap into the pool of people who are economically inactive. Instead, our economy has looked elsewhere for people to come in and fill those vacancies. It is important that we enable people to enter the labour market and that, in tandem, job creation activities proceed. Hopefully, the two will match up with each other.

Wage subsidies might be necessary as the strategy rolls out to provide an incentive to employers to reach into the market of those who are economically inactive. Some people might find themselves in situations where they are unable to compete with more experienced or work-ready people who are unemployed. Therefore, to crack that structural problem, we might need to put in place an incentive. Much more detailed work on how that will operate needs to take place over the next number of months, including addressing the level of intervention.

We need to do some cost modelling to ensure that it has been pitched at the most effective level. However, I draw the attention of the Member and others to the fact that the use of subsidies to employers around employment is not something new but something that has already been done, most recently as part of the youth employment scheme and also under the First Start strand of Steps to Work. Those interventions are designed to assist unemployed young people. There is a track record of that being a successful way of addressing what is otherwise a market failure.

Jim Allister (Traditional Unionist Voice, North Antrim)

Of the 315,000 who are economically inactive, how many are just plain work-shy? Does the Minister think that welfare reform, if implemented, would do anything to shrink the work-shy constituency?

Stephen Farry (Alliance, North Down)

I thank the Member for his questions in so far as it gives me an opportunity to stress again that I am approaching this from the basis that people in this society want to work if they have the capacity to do so or are not facing barriers. What has often happened with the economically inactive is that they have been, in a sense, forgotten by society. They have been written off, or they have written themselves off by saying that they do not have the capacity to engage with the labour market. There are very few people in this world who deliberately opt out of employment. It is not nice, it is not pleasant, and it limits opportunities for those people to interact, to support family and friends and to avail themselves of other opportunities that people who are in work are capable of accessing. Therefore, it is not a good place to be in. There are people who nonetheless find themselves trapped in that situation, and that is why it is important that we put measures in place to assist them.

Welfare reform is a separate issue from this strategy, and it is worth reinforcing that time after time. Irrespective of any decisions that have been taken or might still be taken for welfare reform at a UK-wide level or implemented in Northern Ireland under parity measures, it is something that we would wish to have done in Northern Ireland, given a structural problem has persisted for the past 30 years. Welfare reform in itself will facilitate a reassessment of people from different conditionality groups into others, and the system in Northern Ireland will respond and assist people as required. However, my motivation is not to get caught up too much in the particular categories that people find themselves in but to work with them to get them into meaningful employment, for their own sake and the sake of our economy, where that is an appropriate intervention for them to be engaged in.

Judith Cochrane (Alliance, Belfast East)

I thank the Minister for his statement. Can any lessons be learned from international experience of delivering a strategy on economic inactivity? Why is the focus on aiming for an employment rate of at least 70%?

Stephen Farry (Alliance, North Down)

I will answer that in the international context, and in some ways, this may also answer the Member's second question. Northern Ireland currently has an economic participation rate of around 66% or 67%, which is the lowest of all UK regions. The UK average is over 70%, and in some regions the percentage will be pushing 75%. Some other high-performing European economies also have a participation figure of around mid-70%. Some other economies in Europe have participation figures lower than our own, including the Republic of Ireland and some of the southern European countries. In those situations, however, we are not fully utilising the people who are available to us and to the economy. There are people who wish to engage but who have, for various reasons, been excluded from engaging in the economy. Therefore, if we are to have a competitive economy, and if we are really to utilise the resources of people available to us to make our presence felt on the global stage, we need to address levels of economic inactivity.

The Member asked about the lessons available to us from other programmes. In the context of these islands, our strategy is, I believe, new and innovative. We are setting a precedent in trying to pull together existing programmes and see what scope there is for new programmes to be taken forward to build on existing practice. There are, however, a number of individual projects happening at local, and perhaps council, level in different communities across the UK. We have been exploring a number of lessons from Scotland, Wales and London. Those could form the basis of similar pilots to be taken forward in Northern Ireland under the competitive piloting process that we hope to roll out as part of the strategy in due course.

John McCallister (UUP, South Down)

In an earlier reply, the Minister said that a targeted subsidy scheme for employers was not new. The Chair mentioned, in his opening question, that you have over 400 recommendations. So what exactly is new and different about this approach? Will any of the schemes that you are bringing in be specific to one skills sector? Will any sector be excluded?

Stephen Farry (Alliance, North Down)

I thank the Member for his question. What is new is that, hitherto in Northern Ireland, there has not been a strategy to address economic inactivity. Although we have a well worked-out suite of strategies and interventions, they deal primarily with those who are in work or those who are unemployed. In so far as we address economic inactivity, we assist students, but we do not do so through a prism of regarding them as economically inactive. So we are moving into what is, essentially, new territory.

There is existing good practice in a number of schemes that Departments are taking forward to help those who are inactive: for example, the work on neighbourhood renewal, the work on public health and early years intervention in education are all good strategic interventions that will address the need for a more balanced labour force as we go forward. However, there is a clear gap in the more immediate support that we can provide to people who find themselves in either of the two categories that I mentioned: the long-term sick or disabled; and those with family and caring commitments. With support, they might be able to overcome the barriers that they are experiencing and enter into work.

There is a wealth of new material coming forward on the back of this. I stress that government does not have all the answers. That is why, as part of the strategy, we will seek proposals, from different organisations and the community and voluntary sector, for programmes that can be taken forward to see which is the most effective. In that way, we can look at what we can scale up across Northern Ireland. I stress to Members that it is critical that we address this issue. This is a major structural problem in our economy that, if left unaddressed for years to come, will hamper our ability to compete in the global economy.

Stewart Dickson (Alliance, East Antrim)

Thank you, Minister, for a lengthy and detailed statement that set out the complex interaction of issues that led to our current situation and which need to be unravelled and understood. Minister, you recently met the post-19 lobby group, which wants people to move into economic activity where practical. Will this strategy allow those who want to come forward with innovative ideas the opportunity to engage in the labour market? What will be the approach to delivering the strategic framework?

Stephen Farry (Alliance, North Down)

I thank the Member for his questions. In answer to his second question, a task force will be set up across a number of Departments, and it will also work closely with the business community and the voluntary sector. It will want to map out the existing provision to see what is working and assess where there are gaps. We will then want to move to the system of competitive pilots. There will be a call for proposals, which will then need to be assessed and resourced. We want to see what has been successful and what has been less successful, and then focus resources on those that we can scale up on a successful basis across Northern Ireland.

With respect to taking forward that competitive piloting, we will be open to examining programmes that are geographically specific, as Mr Ramsey asked earlier, or programmes that are focusing on very particular aspects of the wider economically inactive population. In terms of programmes that could fit under the evolving strategy from a learning difficulty perspective, yes, there will be scope for proposals to come forward in that regard. Already, we fund a number of programmes to assist people with learning difficulties, most notably through the European social fund, and that will continue. Also, a number of programmes are funded under the collaboration and innovation fund, under NEETs. We are also looking at the disability employment service and reviewing it to see how we can more effectively support people who wish to enter and be sustained in the labour market across a whole range of different conditions.

Patsy McGlone (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Mid Ulster)

Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as an ráiteas cuimsitheach. I thank the Minister for his comprehensive statement. There was much reference throughout it to welfare reform, specifically with regard to his proposal to undertake a series of innovative pilot projects designed to test new approaches to re-engage and support inactive individuals. What has been learned? What engagement has there been with the Department for Social Development to learn from the less well experiences of the work-related interviews, which seem to be, essentially, just tick-box exercises to get people in and out the door again?

Stephen Farry (Alliance, North Down)

I thank the Member for his question. Let me reinforce that this is not part of welfare reform. It is something that we would have wished to do in any event, because economic inactivity is a structural problem within our economy. That said, welfare reform is a reality, and the particular shape of that reality is something that virtually all of us in this House are uncomfortable with in different ways. Sometimes, the artificial manner in which people have been recategorised from one area to another has caused us concerns.

The Department for Social Development is a key delivery partner in that regard. We will need to be informed of what is happening in terms of changes around welfare, so that we can shape our programmes to deal with the evolving balance of the inactive population. There will be people moved from one form of welfare to another, from no conditionality to a limited conditionality or full conditionality. Those decisions will be taken outside the context of this inactivity strategy and framework. We will simply respond to people as we find them and address their needs.

Let me reiterate my philosophy in approaching this. It is not about a situation where we artificially move people from one category to another, and, all of a sudden, people automatically move into jobs. I look at this from a different angle, whereby we try to address the barriers that people experience and see how we can empower and enable them. Most people want to work. It is not a case that people have opted out and need a degree of compulsion to move them along the journey. It is about how we can best support people who find themselves in situations where they experience barriers in their own lives or in the perception of employers.

Executive Committee Business

John Dallat (Social Democratic and Labour Party, East Londonderry)

I call the Minister of Health, Social Services and Public Safety to move the Tobacco Retailers Bill.

Moved. — [Mr Poots (The Minister of Health, Social Services and Public Safety).]

John Dallat (Social Democratic and Labour Party, East Londonderry)

Members will have a copy of the Marshalled List of amendments detailing the order for consideration. The amendments had been grouped for debate in my provisional grouping of amendments selected list. There are two groups of amendments, and we will debate each group in turn. The first debate will be on the Minister's opposition to clauses 1, 5 and 6 and on amendment Nos 1 to 19, 39 and 41, which deal with the register of tobacco retailers and registration.

The second debate will be on amendment Nos 20 to 38, 40 and 42, which deal with offences, enforcement, powers and penalties, together with the Minister's opposition to clause 11. Once the debate on each group is completed, any further amendments to the group will be moved formally as we go through the Bill, and the question on each will be put without further debate. The questions on stand part will be taken at the appropriate points in the Bill. If that is clear, we shall proceed.

John Dallat (Social Democratic and Labour Party, East Londonderry)

We now come to the first group for debate, which is the Minister's opposition to clauses 1, 5 and 6 and amendment Nos 1 to 19, 39 and 41. Amendments in this group make provision for a register of tobacco retailers maintained by the registration authority, replace reference to "councils" with "registration authority", as well as making a number of other changes in relation to entries in the register. Members will wish to note that if clause 1 stands part of the Bill, I will not call amendment Nos 1, 2, 3, 5 to 11, 13, 15, 17 to 19 and 39 and that amendment No 16 is consequential to amendment No 14.

I call the Minister of Health, Social Services and Public Safety to speak to his opposition to clause 1 stand part and to address the amendments in the group.

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

The following amendments stood on the Marshalled List:

No 1: After clause 1 insert

"Register of tobacco retailers

1A.-(1) The registration authority must, in accordance with the provisions of this Act, maintain a register of persons carrying on a tobacco business ("the Register”).

(2) On the basis of information contained in the Register, the registration authority must, at all reasonable times, make available for public inspection—

(a) a list of premises at which tobacco businesses are carried on; and

(b) such other information as may be prescribed.

(3) The registration authority must make available to each council and the Department such information contained in the Register as that council or the Department may require.

(4) Information made available under subsection (3) to a council may be used by the council only for the purpose of enabling it or assisting it to perform its functions under—

(a) this Act;

(b) Part 2 of the Health and Personal Social Services (Northern Ireland) Order 1978; and

(c) the Children and Young Persons (Protection from Tobacco) (Northern Ireland) Order 1991.

(5) In any proceedings for an offence under this Act a certificate issued by the registration authority which states that on any date a person was or was not registered in respect of any premises shall be evidence of the facts stated in it; and any such certificate which purports to be issued by the registration authority shall be taken to be so issued unless the contrary is proved.

(6) In this Act—

"registered” means entered in the Register, and "unregistered” is to be construed accordingly;

"the registration authority” means a body which is established or constituted by or under Northern Ireland legislation and is prescribed for the purposes of this Act."— [Mr Poots (The Minister of Health, Social Services and Public Safety).]

No 2: In clause 2, page 1, line 11, leave out from "council" to the end of line 12 and insert "registration authority—".— [Mr Poots (The Minister of Health, Social Services and Public Safety).]

No 3: In clause 2, page 2, line 6, leave out "council" and insert "registration authority".— [Mr Poots (The Minister of Health, Social Services and Public Safety).]

No 4: In clause 2, page 2, line 7, leave out "or" and insert—

"(aa) the applicant has, within the period of 5 years ending with the day on which the application is made, been convicted of an offence under section 170 or 170B of the Customs and Excise Management Act 1979 in relation to tobacco and been sentenced for that offence to a custodial sentence (whether suspended or not); or".— [Mr Poots (The Minister of Health, Social Services and Public Safety).]

No 5: In clause 2, page 2, line 8, leave out "council" and insert "registration authority".— [Mr Poots (The Minister of Health, Social Services and Public Safety).]

No 6: In clause 2, page 2, line 12, leave out "council" and insert "registration authority".— [Mr Poots (The Minister of Health, Social Services and Public Safety).]

No 7: In clause 2, page 2, line 14, leave out "council" and insert "registration authority".— [Mr Poots (The Minister of Health, Social Services and Public Safety).]

No 8: In clause 2, page 2, line 19, leave out "the council considers appropriate" and insert

"which the Department may direct the authority to include".— [Mr Poots (The Minister of Health, Social Services and Public Safety).]

No 9: In clause 2, page 2, line 20, leave out "council" and insert "registration authority".— [Mr Poots (The Minister of Health, Social Services and Public Safety).]

No 10: In clause 2, page 2, line 24, leave out "the council considers appropriate" and insert

"which the Department may direct the authority to include".— [Mr Poots (The Minister of Health, Social Services and Public Safety).]

No 11: In clause 3, page 2, line 30, leave out from "council" to "situated" in line 31 and insert "registration authority".— [Mr Poots (The Minister of Health, Social Services and Public Safety).]

No 12: In clause 3, page 2, line 35, leave out "3 months" and insert "28 days".— [Mr Poots (The Minister of Health, Social Services and Public Safety).]

No 13: In clause 4, page 2, line 38, leave out "A council" and insert "The registration authority".— [Mr Poots (The Minister of Health, Social Services and Public Safety).]

No 14: In clause 4, page 3, line 1, leave out subsection (2) and insert—

"(2) The registration authority must amend the Register so as to remove—

(a) references to registered premises in respect of which a restricted premises order has effect;

(b) a person’s entry from the Register where that person has, within a period of 5 years ending with the day on which the removal is made, been convicted of an offence under section 170 or 170B of the Customs and Excise Management Act 1979 in relation to tobacco and has been sentenced for that offence to a custodial sentence (whether suspended or not).".— [Mr Poots (The Minister of Health, Social Services and Public Safety).]

No 15: In clause 4, page 3, line 4, leave out "A council" and insert "The registration authority".— [Mr Poots (The Minister of Health, Social Services and Public Safety).]

No 16: In clause 4, page 3, line 5, after "(2)" insert "(a)".— [Mr Poots (The Minister of Health, Social Services and Public Safety).]

No 17: In clause 4, page 3, line 8, leave out "A council" and insert "The registration authority".— [Mr Poots (The Minister of Health, Social Services and Public Safety).]

No 18: In clause 4, page 3, line 10, leave out "council" and insert "registration authority".— [Mr Poots (The Minister of Health, Social Services and Public Safety).]

No 19: In clause 4, page 3, line 13, leave out "a council" and insert "the registration authority".— [Mr Poots (The Minister of Health, Social Services and Public Safety).]

No 39: In clause 22, page 16, leave out lines 33 and 34 and insert—

‘"the Register” has the meaning given in section 1A(1);

"registered”, "unregistered” and "the registration authority” have the meanings given in section 1A(6);"— [Mr Poots (The Minister of Health, Social Services and Public Safety).]

No 41: In clause 24, page 17, line 16, leave out "5(2),".— [Mr Poots (The Minister of Health, Social Services and Public Safety).]

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

Amendment No 1 inserts a new clause 1, the effect of which is to require a registration authority to maintain a register of tobacco retailers and to make that information available to the public at all reasonable times. The amendment was suggested by the Health Committee during its scrutiny of the Bill, as similar registers established in Scotland and the Republic of Ireland were based on a central registration system rather than a council-by-council system, and it will assist district councils in their enforcement of legislation. Therefore, I am thankful to Committee members for their input.

Amendment Nos 2, 3, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 13, 15, 17, 18 and 19 are technical in nature and are necessary following the change in legislation from registers held at local council level to a centralised registration system.

Amendment No 4 prohibits a person from registering as a tobacco retailer for a period of five years if he or she has committed an illicit tobacco offence that has resulted in a custodial sentence being applied. The amendment was suggested by the Health Committee during its scrutiny of the Bill, as was amendment No 14, which applies a similar sanction in relation to the existing retailers on the register. The amendments arose out of concern regarding the prolific availability of illicit tobacco and the fact that its reduced cost makes smoking a more affordable option for children and young people. Amendment No 16 is a technical amendment required as a result of the inclusion of amendment No 14, and, again, I thank the Health Committee for its input.

Amendment No 12 requires that notification of any changes to the register should be given within 28 days of that change, rather than three months, which was initially proposed. The amendment was suggested by the Committee to assist councils in their enforcement of the legislation, and I thank it for its input.

Amendment No 39 is a technical amendment, which takes account of new clause 1A with regard to the meaning of "the Register", "registered", "unregistered" and "the registration authority". Amendment No 41 removes the reference to clause 5(2), which was a regulation-making power, as I am proposing that clause 5 no longer stands part of the Bill.

Members will have noted on the Marshalled List my intention to oppose the questions that clauses 1, 5 and 6 stand part of the Bill. The various amendments being proposed to the Bill have resulted in the provisions in those clauses being inserted elsewhere or removed completely if they are no longer required.

Maeve McLaughlin (Sinn Féin, Foyle)

Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. On behalf of the Committee, I welcome the Consideration Stage of the Tobacco Retailers Bill. The Bill is timely and welcome. Having looked closely at the Bill and what it has to offer, the Committee is confident that it will take us another step forward in tackling underage smoking, and, hence, in protecting the health of our children and young people. It will do that by introducing stricter sanctions against retailers who continue to sell tobacco to under-18s, thereby ensuring that the minimum age of sale policy is more rigorously applied by retailers.

The Bill was referred to the Committee on 23 April 2013. To ensure that there was enough time to scrutinise the legislation, the Committee sought an extension to 18 October. However, I am pleased to say that we finished a week ahead of schedule, thanks to the hard work of members and the cooperation of departmental officials.

The Committee received written submissions from 24 organisations and individuals, and took oral evidence from those representing the widest possible range of interested parties in the time available. Its report was completed on 9 October 2013.

The Committee's detailed scrutiny led to it recommending that the Department make amendments to a significant number of the 26 clauses in the Bill. I am pleased to report that all those recommendations have been accepted by the Minister and are reflected in the amendments that we are considering today. I thank the Minister for his cooperative approach and for taking on board the Committee's recommendations. I am sure that my Committee colleagues will support me in noting the good working relationship that was established between the Committee and the departmental officials at Committee Stage. That certainly helped the process along and paid dividends when it came to agreeing recommendations for amendments.

Before I talk specifically about the amendments in the first grouping, I wish to provide a brief overview of the key issues that we identified as we scrutinised the Bill. There was a major issue around whether there should be one central register or 26 separate registers maintained by the councils. Other issues included illicit tobacco offences and their relevance to the legislation; the importance of all relevant information being shared by all the organisations involved in enforcing the legislation; the severity of restricted premises and restricted sales orders; the importance of deterrents; and proxy purchasing. I will return to each of those issues later in the debate.

I will now comment on the first group of amendments. The Minister is proposing to oppose clause 1 and bring forward a new clause through amendment No 1. The Committee welcomes that. Amendment No 1 creates a registration authority that must maintain a register of persons who are running a tobacco retail business. The original clause 1 proposed that there be 26 separate registers, one for each council area. The Committee was concerned that the lack of a centralised system could result in information not being shared between councils as efficiently as it could be. In particular, members were concerned that details of people convicted of or given fixed penalty notices for tobacco offences, and people convicted of illicit tobacco offences, would not be routinely shared between the councils. The Committee, therefore, asked the Department to explore having a central register as well as or in place of the 26 council registers. We were pleased, therefore, that the Department accepted the Committee’s point of view and that a registration authority is to be established.

The Committee is also content that amendment No 1 allows for the register to be made available to the public, and we hope that it will be available online. That removes the need for clause 5, and the Committee supports the Minister’s intention to oppose clause 5.

At Committee Stage, we also discussed with officials the possibility that the register would contain details of fixed penalty notices, convictions and restricted sales orders made against retailers listed on the register. The Department took the view that putting that type of information on a public register could potentially be challenged under human rights law. It also made the point that, the more complex the register became, the more it would cost to administer. Furthermore, if information were provided on fixed penalty notices, convictions and restricted sales orders, it would be imperative that it was kept continually up to date to avoid any errors that could potentially result in legal action against the registration authority. After considering the matter further and taking its own legal advice, the Committee agreed that it was content with the Department's rationale.

Amendment No 4 concerns who can apply to register as a tobacco retailer. That is a significant issue, and it was discussed at length by the Committee. We took the view that, given the responsibility that is involved in selling tobacco, somebody who has a serious conviction for selling illicit tobacco should be prevented from registering as a tobacco retailer. The Department's initial response was that this suggestion raised a number of issues that needed to be investigated further. First, there would be a need to define what a serious conviction is in the context of illicit sales. Secondly, there was an issue about the duration for which somebody could be banned from registering as a tobacco retailer if they have a previous conviction for selling illicit tobacco. Thirdly, there was an issue with regard to offender rehabilitation.

After further consideration, the Department proposed an amendment to clause 2, so that a person who has been convicted of an illicit tobacco offence resulting in a custodial sentence, whether it is suspended or not, shall not be allowed to register as a tobacco retailer for five years from the date of the conviction. The Committee welcomes that approach and Amendment No 4.

Amendment No 14 is linked to that issue. The Committee raised the issue of whether a retailer who was on the register and was later convicted of an illicit tobacco offence resulting in a custodial offence, whether it is suspended or not, would be automatically removed from the register. The Department agreed that this was a sensible suggestion and subsequently proposed an amendment to clause 4 to that effect. The Committee is, therefore, content with amendment No 14.

Amendment No 12 relates to the duty on retailers to notify changes to their details as contained on the register. Councils felt that the time period for notifying a change of name or address or for notifying that a tobacco business is no longer being carried out at premises should be changed from three months to 28 days. In their view, that was a reasonable expectation and would ensure that the register was kept up to date. The Department agreed to make the amendment. The Committee, therefore, is content with Amendment No 12.

The Minister intends to oppose clause 6. Again, the Committee supports that. The clause, as drafted, states that councils must provide to other councils and the Department, if requested, the information that is contained in their own tobacco register. However, given that the registration authority will now maintain the register, rather than 26 councils keeping separate registers, the clause is no longer relevant. The issue of information sharing between the relevant bodies is dealt with in amendment No 36. I will address that matter later in the debate on the second group of amendments.

Amendment Nos 2, 3, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 13, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 39 and 41 are technical amendments that are proposed by the Minister. The Committee supports those amendments.

Jim Wells (DUP, South Down)

This is an excellent example of how the Committee system in the Northern Ireland Assembly works. There was an initial Bill that the Committee largely supported in principle, but we wished to strengthen its clauses. On several occasions, we met officials from the Department. I have to say that the working relationship was excellent. In exactly the same way that we found when the sunbeds legislation was going through, there was willingness to meet the Committee halfway to explain the position very well and, where there were difficulties, to explain why the Department could not go down the line that the Committee wished to go down. As a result of that, the Bill is now a much better piece of legislation. It is much more balanced. Very importantly, it will tackle, to a large extent, the problem of underage smoking.

I welcome the legislation because it is part of a suite of measures that was introduced by— to be fair to him — the previous Minister, but, more latterly, the present Minister to tackle the issue of tobacco. We must remember that 3,200 people a year die in Northern Ireland as a result of smoking-related diseases. A suite of measures, including the Bill, which deals with that important issue is, in my opinion, very timely.

The amendments that were put forward by the Minister and the Committee will make it more difficult for retailers to sell to those who are too young to consume tobacco products. Initially, there were meant to be 26 registers. An individual who lived in a certain district would look up the register for their area to ascertain whether a retailer was registered or otherwise. There were initial problems with that. First, not everybody in Northern Ireland knows in which district they live. There may be confusion. The retailer may be just across the boundary in another district.

Secondly, with the change in local government organisation when we move to a new council model, there will initially be even more confusion about where people live. We thought that in Northern Ireland, with a population of 1·8 million people in an area the size of Yorkshire, it should not have been beyond the realms of possibility for a central register to be maintained. The Department and the Minister readily agreed to that. With technology, we expect that people who are concerned about a particular retailer will simply log on, put in the appropriate address or postcode and will instantly know whether a person is behaving legally and is registered to sell tobacco.

We heard some horror stories during Committee Stage about the cost of the system in Scotland. I got the impression that I had followed the wrong career in life and that I should be setting up IT systems to register tobacco retailers because, if that is the cost of the system, it really is extraordinary. I believe that it can be done in a very cheap and cheerful way. The information can be kept on a central website so that people can look it up, and it should not cost a huge amount of money. At the moment, we do not have a registration fee for those who wish to register to sell tobacco products, so the cost does not fall on small retailers.

This is important because the fundamental tenet of the Bill is the "Three strikes and you're out" principle. As a result of a young mystery shopper being sent by the environmental health department of a local council, if, on three occasions within five years, a person is discovered to be selling tobacco products to young people, he or she loses their licence to sell tobacco. That is a very powerful deterrent, because tobacco retail in Northern Ireland is not so much about the profit that is made on the cigarettes or rolled tobacco sold; tobacco attracts people in to buy other, more profitable products such as newspapers, groceries or sweets. Therefore, the right to sell tobacco is absolutely crucial to the small retailer, who could never survive on selling tobacco products alone.

The real deterrent is that, after a series of misdemeanours, someone will lose the right to sell tobacco. That is absolutely right and will send out a clear signal throughout Northern Ireland that we will not tolerate young people obtaining tobacco. We have already stopped them getting cigarettes from vending machines, which has been extremely successful. We have also stopped point-of-display sales, which has already been rolled out in the big stores and will, more latterly, be introduced in small stores. Children will not have glamorous images of tobacco products in their face. I see this as the third leg of the stool, making it extremely difficult for them to go in —

Jim Allister (Traditional Unionist Voice, North Antrim)

Will the Member give way?

Jim Wells (DUP, South Down)

Certainly.

Jim Allister (Traditional Unionist Voice, North Antrim)

Perhaps, with the Member's knowledge of the Committee's thinking, he could explain what he has just said about the principle of "Three strikes and you're out" in relation to amendment No 4. That amendment seems to require that you have been convicted and, indeed, been subject to a custodial sentence, suspended or not, to prevent you being registered. Why, then, if there is a "Three strikes and you're out" approach, is that not reflected with the multiplicity of penalty notices being also a disqualifier? Why is that not also reflected in clause 4? Is there an explanation for that?

Jim Wells (DUP, South Down)

Is the Member referring to amendment No 4 or clause 4?

Jim Allister (Traditional Unionist Voice, North Antrim)

Amendment No 4.

Jim Wells (DUP, South Down)

Amendment No 4, yes. For Members' interest, it says that:

"the applicant has, within the period of 5 years ending with the day on which the application is made, been convicted of an offence under section 170 or 170B of the Customs and Excise Management Act 1979".

There are two pieces of legislation here. There is the existing legislation, which covers the sale of illicit tobacco, which is the 1979 Act, and there is the new legislation, which covers those who sell tobacco to underage young people. My understanding is that that legislation is still not negated by what we propose and that, if someone is convicted of selling contraband tobacco, he or she can be excluded from selling tobacco and can be convicted. This provision is aimed at someone who has been caught on three separate occasions selling tobacco to underage purchasers. After the first and second warnings, there is, of course, provision for fines, but on the third occasion that person can lose his or her licence, which is a very powerful deterrent. The two are not mutually exclusive, and my understanding — I will stand aside for the Minister, who has a more expert view on this — is that you could be convicted for both offences.

Jim Allister (Traditional Unionist Voice, North Antrim)

I am still a bit puzzled about why amendment No 4 sets it down that you have to have been convicted and had a custodial sentence before you are disbarred from being registered if there is an active prohibition resulting from penalty notices, through "Three strikes and you are out". I would have thought that there should be a correlation between those so that an accumulation of penalty notices would equally prevent you, under what is being addressed in amendment No 4. Is there a reason why that does not?

Jim Wells (DUP, South Down)

You could be convicted of dealing in illicit tobacco and not have incurred the wrath of your local council by being caught by what I have called the "mystery shopper". It is a technical issue, and I am sure that the Minister has the answer to it and will no doubt clarify it in his summation, but my reading of amendment No 4 is that it allows the authorities two ways of dealing with the issue. If you are selling illicit tobacco that has been smuggled, is contraband or is fake, you can be convicted, and there is a custodial sentence. Equally, if you are selling totally legitimate tobacco that has not been smuggled and is not counterfeit but you are caught on three occasions selling that to young people, you lose your right to sell tobacco. Of course, there is no custodial sentence attached to that particular misdemeanour. You simply lose the right to sell, which I still think is a huge deterrent. It is far and away the most important deterrent for tobacco retailers, because at the moment the sanctions are not particularly effective.

We do not realise that 82% of long-term smokers in Northern Ireland started in their teenage years. If we can prevent young people having ready access to tobacco products when they are young, the chances are that they will not take up the habit when they get into their 20s and 30s. Another statistic is that 80% of those who have taken up tobacco wish that they had not done so and are trying desperately to stop. There are very few people in Northern Ireland who are happy about the fact that they use tobacco products. Indeed, many of them regret the fact that, when they were in their teenage years, there was such ready access to tobacco. The Member has a much more detailed legal background than I have, so my interpretation could be on shaky ground, but I know that the departmental officials will readily provide an explanation that will help the Minister in his summation, and we will listen with interest.

Roy Beggs (UUP, East Antrim)

Will the Member give way?

Jim Wells (DUP, South Down)

Certainly.

Roy Beggs (UUP, East Antrim)

I draw the Member's attention to clause 8(6), which clarifies that, if someone has been caught selling tobacco to underage people on at least two other occasions, the court may impose a ban on tobacco retailing. Therefore, there are two distinctly separate avenues. Originally, that was the proposal in the legislation, but, as a result of the Committee's intervention — I highlighted the issue myself originally — someone who has been convicted of a serious offence involving smuggling should not be entitled to be on the register in the first place. I hope that that is helpful.

Jim Wells (DUP, South Down)

Remember, of course, that clause 8 will be amended by the Committee and the Minister's amendments. It refers to getting a fixed penalty notice or being convicted of a tobacco offence, so both offences are covered by that. For clarification, it is important that we get further explanation of that point.

I would have liked the register to have gone a bit further and included the details of convictions both of individuals and of premises, but I accept that, when we put that point to it, the Department explained in great detail the possible ramifications under human rights legislation of doing that. Reluctantly, I had to accept that it was right. We did not want this important legislation to be taken straight to judicial review or some form of court action and for that clause to fall or for the whole basis of the legislation to be brought into doubt, so, after a lot of discussion, the Committee agreed that it would not go down that route. Perhaps that was the only area in which there was any active discussion or debate between us and the Department, so, at the end of the day, I reluctantly accepted that.

My basic view is that the legislation puts us ahead of the rest of the United Kingdom and the Irish Republic in dealing with the issue. Therefore, I hope that other parts of the UK will take note of what has happened. The Bill has benefited from the scrutiny of the Committee, from sympathetic consideration by the Department and from the Minister's willingness to meet the Committee on the important concerns that it had. Therefore, the Committee will not oppose any of the Minister's amendments.

A raft of amendments from the Chair of the Committee has been agreed with the Department, so there is no need for the House to divide on any of those. This is, in my opinion, the Assembly working at its best.

I pay tribute to Conall McDevitt, who had an important role in the early stages of the legislation and is not here to see it come to fruition. He was a very valuable member of the Committee. I am sure that Mr McKinney, who succeeded him, will be an equally valuable member. We respected Mr McDevitt's input into the legislation in the early stages, and I am sure that, had he still been here, he would have been quite happy with it.

Fearghal McKinney (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast South)

I thank Mr Wells for his comments. Conall McDevitt was centrally involved in the early stages of the legislation, and I came along only recently. It is also important to reflect on what Mr Wells said about the background to the Bill. The 2,300 people dying in Northern Ireland each year as a result of smoking is too many, and many more suffer long-term illness.

The Bill is timely and welcome. With amendment, it will help to regulate smoking and curb the growing trend among young people, which is the direction of the legislation, which attempts to prevent younger people gaining access to cigarettes.

As the Chair said, the Committee received communications from many sources, and its decisions were well informed. I praise the Minister and departmental officials, who took a considered approach. The Committee took different views and was listened to. We believe that the legislation will be stronger as a result.

The SDLP is content that the Committee has rigorously interrogated aspects of the Bill, specifically the amendments. The Committee welcomed amendment No 1. The original clause, as was outlined, had 26 registers; a central register makes much more sense and avoids excessive red tape and bureaucracy. In amendment No 4, the period of five years is logical, and we are pleased that the Committee's recommendations were listened to. We are pleased with amendment No 12 and that the movement from three months to 28 days was accepted.

We are content to sit with the Committee's position on this and are pleased to see, as Mr Wells outlined, that the legislation was interrogated by the Committee and the Department. We hope that that has made it stronger legislation. I go back to the central point, however: this is about preventing young people accessing tobacco products, and we hope that it will lead to a significant reduction in the headline figures that I pointed out at the start.

Roy Beggs (UUP, East Antrim)

I will briefly put the legislation into context. Members mentioned the 2,300 people who die in Northern Ireland each year from tobacco-related causes. On top of that, 17,000 tobacco-related admissions to hospital occur each year, and some 24% of our population still smoke. Interestingly, that percentage has remained stubbornly high and, in fact, has increased very slightly according to the most recent surveys. That means that, each year, while 2,300 people die from smoking-related diseases and many others suffer from them, at least 2,300 young people start to smoke. This is a very addictive drug —

Jim Wells (DUP, South Down)

Will the Member give way?

Roy Beggs (UUP, East Antrim)

Yes, I will.

Jim Wells (DUP, South Down)

On Saturday, the public health authorities in GB calculated that half of the 521 teenagers who take up smoking every day in the United Kingdom will die from a smoking-related disease if they do not give up within a short period.

Roy Beggs (UUP, East Antrim)

I thank the Member for that information. That just reinforces the importance of protecting our young people and making them fully aware of the dangers of the disease, and also of protecting them by not enabling them to easily access something that is so addictive and will cause them so much trouble in later life.

Recent surveys indicate that about 8% of our 11- to 16-year-olds are smoking. It is horrendous that people are becoming addicted at such a young age. One fifth of the test purchases by local councils find that retailers have been selling to underage persons. Other surveys indicate that up to half of purchases made by underage users are made directly from retailers. Clearly, something needs to be done to strengthen the legislation in that area and ensure that more of our young people will not suffer ill health in the long term as a result of acquiring an addiction to smoking. It is for that reason that I am very supportive of the legislation in principle.

I agree with others that the Committee Stage was very constructive. The Committee spotted weaknesses in the proposed legislation and suggested improvements, some of which were taken up. On other suggested improvements, having initially been told, "No, you can't do that", the Committee decided to seek further advice and come forward with amendments. Thankfully, the Department, having a clear message from the Committee, did further research, changed its mind and is seeking to strengthen the legislation in a number of areas with the amendments that have been proposed by the Minister. I agree with others that there has been constructive engagement between the Committee and the Department and the Minister to bring about much better legislation. I fully support all the amendments in the Minister's name, many of which have their origins in the Committee.

Clause 1 allows the councils to control the 26 registers. The Committee highlighted a degree of duplication there. There is the potential for a lack of sharing of information. An individual with retail shops in two council areas might be engaged in bad practice in one area, and it would be up to that council area to tip off the other area that the individual needs to be under particular scrutiny. It seems much more sensible to have a central register that is widely shared between all the councils that are required to try to enforce the legislation. So I support amendment No 1, which replaces clause 1. I note the opposition to clauses 5 and 6, which are related. Amendment No 1, with its provision for a central register and guidance around that, is a much better way of regulating the register, keeping a close eye and sharing information.

I agree with Mr Wells that it would be nice if there was a huge level of detail in the register, but I had to accept the points made by the officials that it would be bureaucratic and might cost a significant amount of money. Ultimately, it might have to be paid for by ratepayers. On top of that, there would be risks from not having accurate information on it, which could affect someone's business incorrectly. For those reasons, I accept that it has to be kept to a reasonable level of detail, as Mr Wells said.

If it is agreed that there should be a central register, there are many more amendments that automatically flow from that, which largely replace "council" with "registration authority". Amendment Nos 2, 3, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 11, 13, 15, 17, 18, 19 and 39 deal with that, and I support all of them.

Amendment No 41 is a consequential amendment of removing clause 5, and I support it.

One of the issues that I raised was about those who may have been convicted under the regulations of smuggling tobacco, which the Department had previously overlooked. I was grateful for the support of the rest of the Committee on this, particularly from my SDLP colleague Conall McDevitt who, along with me, highlighted the issue in the early days. The Department, in fact, told us that you could not use the legislation — I am referring to the Customs and Excise Management Act 1979 — when considering whether someone is suitable for retailing. It strikes me that someone who is convicted of the serious offence of smuggling obviously has no regard for the law. If they are willing to profit from smuggling illegal and maybe even counterfeit cigarettes, they clearly have no regard for an individual's health. As such, I would say that there is a high risk that such individuals also have no regard for whether they sell cigarettes to young people under the legal age. Given all those risk factors, I think that it is entirely right that we should prevent them joining the register in the first place, as per amendment No 4. Not only that but if they were already on the register, it would be inappropriate for them to remain on it if they had been convicted of a serious offence involving a custodial sentence. From my reading of it, amendment No 14 therefore allows for the removal of such people from the register. That is a very significant power that will stop those who may be profiting and surviving in a very competitive market while others, who are operating legally, may be forced to close. It is important that we have a level playing field and that we stop those who are breaking the law and are profiting from illegal activity from undermining legitimate business. So, I think that it is right that we should remove such serious offenders from the register.

I also support amendment No 12. The relevant clause originally said that a retailer would have three months to apply to join the register. Applying to join the register is a very simple process, with a minimum amount of information needed. It is not complicated and it is free. No one, therefore, should require a long time to complete it. However, originally, retailers were to be given three months to join the register. What message was that sending? It was not saying that this is important and that it is important that you join the register and act legally. Therefore, I support the Committee's idea that a much shorter period should be applied, and it is now down to 28 days.

Someone who takes over a business can obviously get caught up in all the legal aspects involving the transaction of the business and perhaps in sorting out the arrangements with their wholesaler, their bank and their solicitor. Equally, this is another arrangement that retailers will have to sort out so that they are fully aware of the law and undertake to abide by it. If they do not so, they will very quickly find that there are penalties. So, I support amendment No 12, because it provides for a much smaller window of opportunity for registration. That will hopefully mean that retailers abide by the guidance and receive, at an early stage, a visit from the local environmental health officers who normally carry out those sorts of inspections. It will make those who commence retailing tobacco fully aware of the law in that regard and ensure that new retailers get off to a positive start, by working within the law and having a positive relationship with their local council.

I support all the group 1 amendments proposed in the Minister's name, as well as the Minister's opposition to the clauses listed. I look forward to speaking in the second part of this debate.

Kieran McCarthy (Alliance, Strangford)

I will be brief; I know that it is coming up to lunchtime. I support the Bill and the comments of our Committee Chair and Deputy Chair. I would like to put on record my appreciation and thanks to the Committee officials for their excellent work during our deliberations.

The Bill is an example of good collaborative working between the Committee and the Department. It was already a good Bill, but the process that we have gone through has significantly strengthened the forthcoming legislation. As has been said, although all the amendments before us come from the Department and are in the name of the Minister, they reflect the deliberations of the Committee. I put on record my recognition of the pragmatic manner in which the Minister and his officials responded to the views of our Committee.

There is strong support for the legislation. The underlying rationale for the Bill and my support for it were articulated at Second Stage. I particularly welcome the move to a central registration system that all councils can access, rather than a situation in which there are 11 or 26 different systems across the councils. Although I have no doubt that councils will use their best endeavours to liaise and communicate with each another, a central register makes that so much simpler, and it reduces the risks of gaps in communication.

Every attempt to deter our young people from starting such a filthy habit and to warn them of its deadly dangers must be strongly supported. As the Deputy Chair of the Committee said, the Assembly is taking a lead on this very important issue.

The debate stood suspended.

The sitting was suspended at 12.27 pm.

On resuming (Mr Speaker in the Chair) —

Oral Answers to Questions

Fearghal McKinney (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast South)

1. asked the Minister of Health, Social Services and Public Safety what changes are planned for ward 5 north of the Belfast City Hospital. (AQO 5160/11-15)

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

Ward 5 north of the Belfast City Hospital provides a GP direct assessment service. There are also 19 collocated medical beds. The Belfast Health and Social Care Trust has advised that the GP direct assessment function and capacity will remain in the Belfast City Hospital but will be relocated to ward 6 north. The direct assessment service in the trust is also being enhanced, with the introduction of direct GP admission and assessment on the Royal Victoria Hospital site. The collocated medical beds in the City Hospital will transfer to the Royal Victoria Hospital, and the changes are expected to take place in early December.

Fearghal McKinney (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast South)

I thank the Minister. Does he agree that the accessibility of community care beds is an integral part of health provision in Northern Ireland and should be maintained?

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

I absolutely agree that that is the case, and the decision that we took to ensure that there was a differentiation between a hospital that is carrying out emergency care and a hospital that is carrying out elective care enabled us to point the hospitals in two very clear directions. It will also ensure that we will be able to best meet community needs and, at the same time, that elective care is carried out with less disturbance and interruption from the emergency sector of a hospital.

Gordon Dunne (DUP, North Down)

Will the Minister advise what the plans are in the Belfast Trust for bowel surgery?

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

There is a proposal to move the service to the Belfast City Hospital site, and one of the recommendations of a public consultation on the reorganisation of the delivery of acute services in Belfast is the relocation of elective surgery that is delivered at the Royal hospitals to the Belfast City Hospital and the Mater to enable all the emergency surgery to be based at the Royal hospitals. One of the proposed models for general surgery that was accepted is that specialist units for colorectal surgery and esophagogastric surgery move to the Belfast City Hospital, allowing separation of the elective and emergency flows in ensuring that emergency and elective patients receive the level of care appropriate to their clinical needs and enabling the development of sustainable, compliant junior doctor and consultant rotas.

Jonathan Craig (DUP, Lagan Valley)

2. asked the Minister of Health, Social Services and Public Safety what a community resuscitation strategy will achieve. (AQO 5161/11-15)

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

The vision for the community resuscitation strategy is to increase survival rates for people who suffer an out-of-hospital cardiac arrest to the highest level that can be achieved across Northern Ireland. To help to achieve this, seven objectives have been identified in the strategy, which was published for consultation on 20 November. I encourage everyone to contribute any ideas that they feel could strengthen the strategy in any way.

Jonathan Craig (DUP, Lagan Valley)

I thank the Minister for that. Does the Minister consider that the current provision for CPR training is adequate or does it need improving?

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

The Department recognises the importance of having people who are trained in CPR skills, and that is included in standard 9 in the 'Service Framework for Cardiovascular Health and Wellbeing', which was published in 2009. A lot of resuscitation training is taking place each year in Northern Ireland, which is organised by various organisations. As resources are finite, the challenge is to achieve as much as possible with the resources that are available. As the pilot that was undertaken by my Department demonstrated, cascade training is feasible and is a viable way of increasing the pool of people who can provide CPR in an emergency. Even a modest increase in the survival rate could mean that up to 100 people across Northern Ireland would be alive who would otherwise not have survived their cardiac arrest. So, we believe that it is very important that we have further training for people in cardiac resuscitation, and we believe that that can make a massive difference to the number of people who survive out-of-hospital heart attacks.

Karen McKevitt (Social Democratic and Labour Party, South Down)

Does the Minister accept that, given the correlation between response times and cardiac arrest survival, a strong communication infrastructure is necessary to tackle out-of-hospital cardiac arrest fatalities?

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

Communication is vital. In the first instance, the more people we have trained in cardiac resuscitation, the quicker the response will be. For every minute that a person has a cardiac arrest without having any defibrillation or life-saving work done on them, the risk rises by 10%. It is a big issue. We also need to know where the defibrillators are. There are around 1,000 defibrillators across Northern Ireland, and they are of no benefit to anybody if they in a box somewhere that nobody knows about. We need to be very clear, whether they are in clubs, railway stations, bus stations, and places where there are lots of public movement, that people know that they are readily accessible. We need as many people as possible in the community who are trained and capable of using them. Communication, response and reaction are critical, so that the public can hold the line until the first responders, in the form of our Ambulance Service, get there.

Kieran McCarthy (Alliance, Strangford)

Will the Minister assure us that all the efforts in the strategy will reach those in sporting organisations, in particular, where young people, all too frequently, collapse suddenly in the middle of the field? If they have a defibrillator in their club, death could possibly be prevented.

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

A regional business case application for sustainable delivery of emergency life support (ELS) training through schools, workplaces and communities in Northern Ireland has been developed by the Northern Trust on behalf of all the trusts. It was submitted to the Health and Social Care Board in December 2011. The application requested recurrent funding for community development resuscitation (CDR) posts across each of the five trusts, with each of the CDR officers being responsible for the delivery of ELS training in schools, communities and across the health service to front line staff. I understand that those posts have been funded until March 2014 and will help to enable us to get information out to the schools.

We can work very closely with the sporting clubs, who have a massive reach into the community, and we need to look at other organisations as well — the Boys' Brigade, the Girls' Brigade, the Scouts, and all those areas where we can have the skills developed in the community that can make that fundamental difference when someone has a heart attack.

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

Mr Wells is not in his place for question 3.

Maeve McLaughlin (Sinn Féin, Foyle)

4. asked the Minister of Health, Social Services and Public Safety for an update on the issue of paediatric cardiac surgery. (AQO 5163/11-15)

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

I am continuing my discussions with the Republic of Ireland's Minister for Health, Dr James Reilly TD, to explore whether it will be possible to establish a two-centred paediatric and congenital cardiac services model on the island of Ireland, to be located in Belfast and Dublin. My overriding concern is the safety of those very vulnerable children and obtaining the best possible treatment and care for them. I am aiming to make my final decision on the future arrangements for this service as soon as possible.

Maeve McLaughlin (Sinn Féin, Foyle)

Go raibh maith agat. I thank the Minister for that. Given the real public concern around the timeline on this issue, can he confirm that there will be a decision that will involve surgery being maintained in Belfast and can he confirm the timeline on that decision?

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

I had hoped to be in a position to make my announcement this week, but discussions are ongoing. I think that people should not underestimate how difficult this process has been and the challenges involved. We need everybody to sing off the same hymn sheet, and we are working very hard to achieve that. Hopefully, we are very close to getting there. I will bring the information to the House and to the public as soon as I can. I trust that that will be very soon. As I indicated, I had hoped to do so this week. I do not believe that it should, necessarily, be much longer, and we really need to get that message out to the people who have real and genuine concerns and, obviously, real needs.

Trevor Clarke (DUP, South Antrim)

I am sure that the Minister is aware that this is a press item today in the media. Does he agree that a two-centred model would serve as a positive example of good cooperation between Belfast and Dublin and be a possible way forward for cardiac services in Northern Ireland?

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

Clearly, it is not feasible for Northern Ireland to have a stand-alone service. I think most people recognise that we do not have the sort of numbers going through the Royal Belfast Hospital for Sick Children to make that feasible. Therefore, we need to work with others on the delivery of that service. Do we look to England, Scotland or the Republic of Ireland? Perhaps it will be a mix. Those involved in some of the most complex cases, whether they are in the Republic of Ireland or Northern Ireland, leave the island to travel to England because of the complexity of the operations required. Others would be best suited to Dublin. However, I believe that there is an opportunity for us to retain services in Belfast, which is what we have been arguing for and seeking to achieve. However, the services provided must be safe and sustainable, and it is our challenge to ensure that. There has been massive improvement in the delivery of congenital cardiac care, including surgery, which is carried out very safely. We need to ensure that whatever we offer in Northern Ireland meets the same safety standard as that offered anywhere else. We cannot fall short of that. Ensuring that standard of safety is one of the key elements that we are working to achieve.

Pat Ramsey (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

The subject is causing deep worry, anxiety and distress to parents. I sense the Minister's frustration today with the process and at not being able to make a formal decision. Will he outline to the House the obstacles or concerns that mean that he is not able to do so?

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

I need cooperation from everyone involved. If surgeons in Dublin are to take up the role, I need their cooperation. If they are not prepared to help us, I need the cooperation of surgeons from another centre. I do not underestimate our ask of the surgeons in Dublin. I am asking a lot of them, so it is not unreasonable that they do not immediately jump up and say, "We want to facilitate Minister Poots and his request". We need to recognise that, if they agree to assist us, they will be taking on a major challenge and will need our respect.

We will continue the negotiations, which are at a tentative stage. I trust that we will be able to work our way through them so that we can report to the Assembly very soon.

Roy Beggs (UUP, East Antrim)

As of 9 December, when Professor Wood completes his work in Belfast, there will be no paediatric cardiac surgeon in Belfast. Does the Minister agree that there is a real danger of many of the specialist children's services starting to unravel and that we have only a short, critical window in which to act?

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

I am very well aware of the short and critical window. The service was under pressure before Professor Wood announced his intention to move on. We have advertised for a replacement, and we are very grateful for the interest that has been shown. We will make every effort to fill his position. It is a big ask to get someone of Professor Wood's standing, and we have to be realistic about that. It may be that the person will require further training, which makes it all the more essential that we liaise with a centre that has all the skills and expertise that will allow us to develop our staff in the Royal Belfast Hospital for Sick Children.

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

Health and Social Care (HSC) and Northern Ireland Chest, Heart and Stroke (NICHS) are working in partnership to develop a new Northern Ireland-wide service to identify people with a particular genetic disorder called familial hypercholesterolaemia (FH), which causes very high blood cholesterol. That will build on the existing service in the Belfast HSC Trust area and should result in an additional 1,000 people with FH being diagnosed and treated over the first four years of the programme.

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

Early identification and treatment of FH will prevent cardiovascular deaths in this population. Additional cases are generally found by systematically identifying, investigating and testing family members of all people known to have FH. The service that we are funding through a partnership between Health and Social Care and the Northern Ireland Chest, Heart and Stroke Association is supporting the development of a bespoke IT system that will facilitate the appointment of specialist FH nurses and additional genetic testing. At that point, Northern Ireland will be one of only a few countries to have a countrywide FH service, including Wales and the Netherlands.

A manual baseline audit has been completed to identify the current Northern Ireland FH population. A business case for a regional FH register and specialist nurses to provide cascaded testing for FH has been approved. Recurrent funding of £107,000 per annum has been identified to fund the development of FH cascaded testing services. This was possible only because of the lobbying and work of the Chest, Heart and Stroke Association on the issue.

Dominic Bradley (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Newry and Armagh)

Go raibh míle maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as a fhreagra. What efforts are being made to trace, track and treat high levels of cholesterol in families that are genetically prone to the condition?

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

That is, essentially, what the FH screening is about. The service framework for cardiovascular health and well-being has recently been reviewed, and a revised version will be published shortly. It sets out standards in relation to prevention, assessment, diagnosis, treatment, care, rehabilitation and palliative care for individuals and communities who have or are at a greater risk of developing cardiovascular disease. That framework was launched in 2009 and has led to a number of improvements in the quality of care that people in Northern Ireland receive. The revised framework will build on earlier success, set new priorities for cardiovascular health in Northern Ireland and continue to improve the health and well-being of the population. The revised framework contains a specific standard relating to the identification and treatment of all people with genetically linked high cholesterol. The identification of other family members through a regional register remains a priority.

Samuel Gardiner (UUP, Upper Bann)

I appreciate what the Minister has said, but can he advise what preventative action he has taken with preschool children and their parents to reduce the likelihood of high cholesterol levels later in life?

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

The Public Health Agency has a key role in advising on how people can manage cholesterol. Some people have naturally higher cholesterol levels than others, therefore some people can get away with eating foods that may cause others major problems. Obviously, we encourage people to have less fat and sugar in their diet, and perhaps not as much carbohydrate as some might take. That will reduce their levels of cholesterol. Good advice for young people is to have a good bowl of porridge every morning. That is one of the best means of dealing with cholesterol. It is funny that the simple things in life very often provide the best solutions.

Ian McCrea (DUP, Mid Ulster)

6. asked the Minister of Health, Social Services and Public Safety what action he has taken to increase early intervention work and reduce morbidity and mortality rates from heart and circulatory disease. (AQO 5165/11-15)

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

Death rates from coronary artery disease have been falling steadily over a number of months. This is due to a number of factors, including early intervention, improvements in drug treatments and better awareness of symptoms. Action taken by Health and Social Care includes the expansion of cardiac catheterisation capacity, the development of a new primary percutaneous coronary intervention service, the development of a community resuscitation strategy, and the review of the service framework for cardiovascular health and well-being to set new priorities for cardiovascular health. Public information campaigns highlight the health risks caused by smoking and obesity and provide information on the signs and symptoms of conditions.

Ian McCrea (DUP, Mid Ulster)

In the past, the Minister has referred to inequalities in the health service. In relation to circulatory disease, can the Minister outline the extent of the inequalities that exist between particular groups across Northern Ireland?

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

The standardised death rate for circulatory disease in Northern Ireland reduced by more than two fifths between the 1997-2001 and 2006-2010 periods, which is very positive. Over the same period, the rate in the 20 most deprived areas saw a smaller reduction of one third. That means that, although the mortality rates improved across all areas, the inequality gap actually increased. That is a big issue for us.

The standardised hospital admissions rate due to circulatory disease reduced by 5% between the 2000-02 and 2008-2010 periods. Throughout that time, the inequality gap between the most deprived areas and the rest of Northern Ireland was fairly steady and stood at 13%. Clearly, there is an inequality gap. That inequality gap continues to increase, which is a matter of regret.

We must continue to get the messages out there and to develop the infrastructure that will support people in these areas. We really need a change of lifestyle for many people. That will make the fundamental difference to outcomes in health inequalities.

Danny Kinahan (UUP, South Antrim)

Children are more likely to receive an electronic gadget as a Christmas present than a bicycle. What is the Minister doing to reinforce to parents the importance of their children exercising and of their leading by example?

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

In all these things, it is very important that we work across Departments. We have a cross-departmental working group. We discuss how best we can get messages through to the public, including children. Of course, schools are the best place to get messages through to children because they spend a lot of their time in school. The Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure supports us in getting messages out through sporting clubs. However, very often, people who are engaged in sporting clubs are doing the right things in any event. Schools are fundamental to us in getting the right health messages out. If public health is initiated from the earlier points in life, it will be considerably less of a challenge as people move into adulthood. We have far too many young people who are clinically obese. For many of them, it is avoidable. We need to get the messages out, particularly through education.

Steven Agnew (Green, North Down)

7. asked the Minister of Health, Social Services and Public Safety, in relation to his response to the 'Ban on Blood Donations from Gay Men' debate in the Assembly on 5 November 2013, to outline the rationale behind his concerns that he would not get a fair hearing in the Court of Appeal. (AQO 5166/11-15)

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

On 8 November, I replied to the Member’s priority question for written answer pointing out:

"I have not said that the Courts have failed to act impartially in cases in which I have been involved."

I also remind the Member that there is not, and never has been, a ban on blood donations from gay men. Rather, there is a ban on men who have oral or anal sex with other men. The restriction relates to behaviour as opposed to orientation. A number of other categories of individuals are also excluded from donating. The judge concluded that any change in Northern Ireland to the donor restriction on men who have sex with men was not my responsibility.

Steven Agnew (Green, North Down)

On 5 November, you asked:

"do I believe that I would get fairness in the Court of Appeal or would there be a circling of the wagons?" — [Official Report, Vol 89, No 2, p55, col 2].

You have publicly raised a concern about the fairness of our appeal courts. Could you please outline when you believe that there has been a circling of the wagons in the past or are you simply scapegoating the courts —

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

Order. I am protecting the Member plus the Minister. I am being very careful that the Member does not stray into an area that could be seen as contempt of court. I just warn the Member and the Minister.

Steven Agnew (Green, North Down)

Minister, could you outline any evidence that you have on which to base your concerns or are you scapegoating the courts for your own errors?

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

The Member asks a question. If he thinks that some sort of deity exists in courts and that they are places of absolute perfection, I have to say that I am not in a similar place. However, I am not alone in that. In this House — in the Committees of this House — His Honour Judge Marrinan, with reference to the appointments committee in the courts, which is headed up by the most senior people in the courts, said of an appointment:

"It was an illegal act, in my view... it was so irrational and so unfair that, had I felt confident about going for judicial review and not fearful that I might end up bankrupt by doing so, I would have been very hopeful, given a fair wind, that a judge would have found the decision to be irrational and have the appearance of bias against me. I would have rather hoped that that would be the decision. Unfortunately, I just did not have the confidence, given the factors that I have just mentioned and the fact that a judge would then be put in the very difficult position of having to make such findings against the highest judicial figures in the land. I just did not feel confident that I would succeed, nor did my skilled QCs."

Those QCs were David Schofield and Nick Hanna. Those are not the words of Edwin Poots; they are the words of His Honour Judge Marrinan.

Paul Givan (DUP, Lagan Valley)

Lord Sumption, in a speech made only two weeks ago, made a number of comments about the judiciary and the attempts through which judge-made law is now undermining the democratic process. He said that he believes that politics is a better way of resolving questions of social policy, rather than judge-made law. Does the Minister agree?

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

That is a matter that I have stressed to the House over and over again. I think it is so poor that some Members of this House seem to think that it would be better if laws were made in courts, as opposed to being made in a legislature and then enacted in courts. That is how the state was originally devised: that Parliament made the laws and the courts ensured that the laws were enacted properly. Lord Sumption quite rightly pointed out:

"It is important to bear in mind that in a Parliamentary democracy the legislature can selectively enact into law whatever parts of the Convention or the case-law of the European Court of Human Rights it pleases. We do not need the Convention in order to introduce changes for which there is a democratic mandate. The Convention, and its judicial apparatus of enforcement, are only necessary in order to impose changes for which there is no democratic mandate. It is a constraint on the democratic process. I think that most people would recognise that there must be some constraints on the democratic process in the interests of protecting politically vulnerable minorities from oppression and entrenching a limited number of rights that the consensus of our societies recognises as truly fundamental. Almost all written constitutions do this. But the moment that one moves beyond cases of real oppression and beyond the truly fundamental, one leaves the realm of consensus behind and enters that of legitimate political debate where issues ought to be resolved politically."

This House should be making those key decisions.

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

Mr Kelly is not in his place.

Brenda Hale (DUP, Lagan Valley)

9. asked the Minister of Health, Social Services and Public Safety what action he is taking to discourage non-emergency attendances at Emergency Departments. (AQO 5168/11-15)

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

I launched the Health and Social Care Board’s Choose Well public awareness campaign, which aims to help people gain a better understanding of the choices available and allows them to get access to the right services quickly. The number of genuine urgent and emergency cases rises during winter, meaning that hospitals, GPs and community nursing teams all have their hands full. Choose Well is about helping the staff in our emergency services concentrate on the people who are the most sick and injured. It is about making it clear to the public that the emergency and 999 services are for life-threatening and serious conditions. Minor healthcare issues can be dealt with by checking advice online, at home, by a pharmacist or by a GP.

Brenda Hale (DUP, Lagan Valley)

I thank the Minister for his answer. Can he inform the House what information is available within the emergency departments themselves about the appropriate use of those facilities?

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

A range of options is used to raise awareness of appropriate health services for patients in direct contact with our hospitals and, in particular, in emergency departments (EDs). Patients can be advised on the appropriateness of attendance at the triage point. That will avoid inappropriate future attendances. Senior nurses can redirect patients to other facilities — for example, GP out-of-hours services, a local pharmacy or, indeed, their own GP. Posters in the main waiting areas can advise patients on the use of GP out-of-hours services. Advice is also offered to non-ED patients on what services are available to them locally. Patients can be advised by telephone of the use of appropriate services when queries are made regarding their condition.

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

That concludes questions for oral answer to the Health Minister. We now move to topical questions.

Jim Wells (DUP, South Down)

On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

I will take your point of order after Question Time. We will move on to topical questions to the Health Minister. Question 1 has been withdrawn.

Judith Cochrane (Alliance, Belfast East)

2. asked the Minister of Health, Social Services and Public Safety when, to ensure that the public are aware of any action that is being taken, he will make a statement about the nature of the investigation into the serious claims that have been made against Cherry Tree House Nursing and Residential Home and the RQIA. (AQT 462/11-15)

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

I will be happy to bring that forward when the RQIA has completed its work.

Judith Cochrane (Alliance, Belfast East)

The investigation of the actions against the regulator is being undertaken by other employees of the same body. Does the Minister think that an investigation by the RQIA of the RQIA is independent or objective?

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

I could comment on that happening in other places, but I will refrain. Independent regulation of healthcare is a big issue, and I am happy for there to be independent regulation. It is important that there is independent regulation. We fund the RQIA, but it is responsible for its own actions and activities, so we do not give it direction about what to do. I have been looking at other areas including, for example, the Care Quality Commission, which is a non-departmental body of the United Kingdom Government that was established in 2009. While it describes itself as an independent regulator of all health and social care services in England, it is, in fact, accountable to the public through Parliament and the Secretary of State for Health, and much of its funding comes from the taxpayer. In Scotland, a public body was created in April 2011. It is part of the Scottish National Health Service, and its function is to implement the healthcare priorities of the Scottish Government, in particular the healthcare quality strategy of the NHS. In Wales, there is an independent inspectorate and regulator of all healthcare, and it carries out its functions on behalf of Welsh Ministers.

I have to admit that it is a challenge to get a body that is wholly independent of government, because the question is this: who will pay for it? People will always be of the opinion that he who pays the piper calls the tune. I genuinely want independent regulation because it is good to keep everybody aware that that can be carried out and to keep people on top of their game. However, the most important aspect is that, culturally, people should want to do their best everywhere they work for people they care for, and, in that respect, culture is more important than regulation.

Sandra Overend (UUP, Mid Ulster)

3. asked the Minister of Health, Social Services and Public Safety to detail how his Department measures safe staffing levels across our hospitals and to state any shortages that there might be in Antrim Area Hospital. (AQT 463/11-15)

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

We have a means of identifying the numbers of staff that we should have in our facilities, and we seek to uphold that. We have different numbers of people in wards at different times, and we have different challenges in our hospitals. On some occasions, the people on the ground will decide to pull people from one ward and put them another ward where there are particular pressures. That is the natural course of action.

I should say that the feedback that I have been getting on Antrim Area Hospital over the last number of months in particular has been so much more positive than was the case in the past. We all need to recognise that and give some praise to all the people who are involved in delivering the service that they are delivering. The difference has been fundamental.

Our Chief Nursing Officer has carried work out on normative staffing levels for nurses. She is responsible for ensuring that we have the appropriate number of nurses in our hospitals.

Sandra Overend (UUP, Mid Ulster)

I thank the Minister for that response. I understand that England is bringing in mandatory recording of safe staffing levels in its hospitals. From discussions with hospital staff members, I can say that that is also needed here, not only to ensure optimum performance by nurses, midwives, consultants and every other member of staff in the hospital but for ideal patient care. Has the Minister any plans to do that in Northern Ireland?

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

As indicated, the Chief Nursing Officer has carried out work on normative staffing levels for nurses. I am delighted to say that, over the past two and a half years, we have appointed many more nurses; in fact, we have appointed around 500 more nurses. That is good news for the people of Northern Ireland. I am sure that the Member will appreciate that and, perhaps, want to include it in a press release that goes out in the future.

Jonathan Craig (DUP, Lagan Valley)

4. asked the Minister of Health, Social Services and Public Safety to outline the pressures at the Ulster Hospital site in having sufficient space to accommodate the services and departments that are required there. (AQT 464/11-15)

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

Some people might be surprised to know that the South Eastern Trust is in discussions with Knock Golf Club regarding the acquisition of land currently leased to Knock Golf Club adjacent to the location of the proposed emergency department and phase B of the acute services block. If that land is acquired, it may be utilised to provide additional car parking. We also facilitated an acquisition of Tor Bank School, which is immediately adjacent to the hospital site.

I visited the hospital site, and the Member of Parliament for Strangford has had people lobbying me, particularly about the MacDermott unit, which is the cancer unit for people in the South Eastern Trust. Those facilities are not fit for purpose. Frankly, I am not happy that people who are receiving treatment for cancer are being treated in substandard facilities. That is a challenge for the South Eastern Trust to resolve.

The trust is making the case that it does not have the space on the Ulster Hospital site to accommodate a new facility for the MacDermott unit. I have been saying clearly to the trust that the South Eastern Trust provides services for the people across the South Eastern Trust area, and many of them will be at the main site, which is at the Ulster Hospital. There may be services that it would be better providing on some of the other sites that the Ulster Hospital has. You have the old Bangor hospital, the old Ards hospital, the hospital in Downpatrick and, indeed, Lagan Valley Hospital. All those sites offer options for further services to be carried out there to enable the key acute services to be carried out at the main hospital, which is the Ulster Hospital, and to ensure that the best possible facilities are available to people requiring those acute services. The South Eastern Trust needs to fundamentally look at how it uses its estate and makes best use of its estate. I certainly think that there are other areas in its estate on which it could do a lot more work without impacting on or damaging in any way, shape or form the service that is provided to people in the South Eastern Trust.

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

I remind the Minister of the two-minute rule.

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

Sorry.

Jonathan Craig (DUP, Lagan Valley)

I thank the Minister for that extensive answer. Obviously, as a Lagan Valley MLA, I will make the argument for the transfer of any services to Lagan Valley Hospital. Does the Minister agree that, in the past, there were plans for services to be transferred to that hospital? Has the Minister any idea where those plans lie?

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

The Lagan Valley site is a strong site and a strong contender in that it remains a hospital with an emergency department, and other key facilities are still available at the site. So, while the Ulster Hospital is the main acute hospital in the South Eastern Trust, we certainly recognise that the Lagan Valley Hospital carries out an excellent service. Services can be expanded on that site, and, in view of the pressures on the Ulster Hospital, they almost certainly should be expanded at that site. I do not think that it is an acceptable reason or, indeed, excuse that people who currently use the Ulster Hospital may not like to travel the distance to Lagan Valley, because people who come from the Lisburn area are expected to travel the distance to the Ulster. As I recall, it is the same distance from Lisburn to Dundonald as it is from Dundonald to Lisburn.

William Humphrey (DUP, Belfast North)

5. asked the Minister of Health, Social Services and Public Safety what action he has taken in recent months on the issue of abortion and, in particular, lethal foetal abnormalities. (AQT 465/11-15)

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

That is one of the vexed questions that come before us to which it is very difficult to get the perfect answer. We are committed to publishing the guidance for health professionals on the termination of pregnancy at the earliest opportunity, although it is taking longer than I had hoped. The number and complexity of the responses received mean that it will take more time before a paper can be brought to the Executive. I am mindful that previous versions of guidance since 2004 have been successfully challenged in the courts, and further legal advice requested through the Departmental Solicitor's Office (DSO) has confirmed that the revised guidelines cannot change the options available to couples who face the very difficult and emotional circumstances of lethal foetal abnormality. Any changes around lethal foetal abnormalities would require amendments to criminal law, which is a matter for the Department of Justice (DOJ). I have written to the Minister of Justice and other Executive colleagues on the matter. Work continues on revising the guidance to take account of the responses to the consultation and to reflect existing law. A document summarising issues raised in the consultation is available on the Department's website.

William Humphrey (DUP, Belfast North)

I thank the Minister for his answer. What meetings has he had with couples affected by lethal foetal abnormality?

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

I have met both couples who came into the public domain as a result of being advised that their baby had a lethal abnormality. I also met the clinicians who were providing advice to the couples. I am writing directly to both families to provide them with an update on the situation. I have also received a vast amount of correspondence from others who have been in similar circumstances. Many of them made the decision to proceed with the pregnancy, because that is what they wished to do. They received real value from going ahead with the pregnancy. However, I understand fully that other people are in different circumstances and do not feel that that is the case for them.

We will try to deal as sensitively as possible with all the issues. It is important that sensitivity be applied in what are very personal, difficult and, indeed, heartbreaking decisions. I believe that all the couples want to have the child in the first place. They are not people who want to engage in some form of dispensing with a pregnancy because it was unplanned. We need to deal with all the cases very sensitively and give due consideration to everything that is said to us.

Ian Milne (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

6. asked the Minister of Health, Social Services and Public Safety what impact the new wing at Antrim Area Hospital has had on A&E waiting times. (AQT 466/11-15)

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

Not only is there a new wing, but there has been a change in the management team and the management structure. Together, they have made a massive impact on Antrim Area Hospital. At the end of September, 109,000 people were waiting for outpatient appointments. That figure is down by 21,000. In September, 79 people waited longer than 12 hours in the emergency department. Although 79 is too many, that is the lowest figure over the past four years. We can see that Antrim hospital is not in the headlines. That is very positive, because the hospital was in the headlines, very often for all the wrong reasons. The fact that it is not in the headlines is an indication that the public are much more satisfied with the service that is being provided at the site.

Ian Milne (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as a fhreagraí go dtí seo. Are any other measures in place or is any new thinking being brought forward to reduce waiting times further from the figures that the Minister has stated? Go raibh míle maith agat.

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

The measures that are being taken are that people are on the ground day and daily, working very closely with people in Antrim hospital. I should clarify that 79 is not the number for Antrim hospital but for Northern Ireland in its entirety. Some time ago, Antrim was the worst-performing hospital for 12-hour breaches: that is no longer the case.

It has been performing remarkably well, and I welcome the fact that people are on the ground talking to the staff, hearing what the problems are and addressing those problems quickly. As a consequence, the public are seeing a service that has improved vastly. We will continue to work with the Northern Trust to ensure that that improvement continues.

Jim Wells (DUP, South Down)

On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

Mr Wells, I will get to you after Question Time. I know that you are waiting patiently.

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

Mr Kelly is not in his place to ask question 1.

Peter Weir (DUP, North Down)

2. asked the Minister of Finance and Personnel what steps he is taking to address the rise in levels of Civil Service sickness absence. (AQO 5176/11-15)

Simon Hamilton (DUP, Strangford)

I thank the Member for his question. Managing attendance and reducing sick absence remains a key priority for the Civil Service. I have asked my officials to consider any changes or strategies that may be necessary to ensure that our ministerial targets are met.

Peter Weir (DUP, North Down)

I thank the Minister for his detailed response. What specific actions to reduce absence are being considered?

Simon Hamilton (DUP, Strangford)

I am very concerned about the upward trend in sickness absence figures for the Civil Service, which defies the trend of recent years when sickness absence was going progressively down. Sickness absence rose to 10·6 days on average in the past year, which is well off our target for the year. I am worried that not only have we not met this year's target, but that we are quite a way from meeting the current year's target, which is nine days of sickness absence. I am sure that Members will appreciate that getting down from 10·6 to nine is going to be exceptionally challenging.

My officials are considering a range of potential actions, including a stress survey and a follow-up action plan, which is planned for early 2014, because stress-related sicknesses account for around 30% of the working days that have been lost. I have asked for a review of best practice models for attendance management, including looking at the role of the line manager, centralising elements of the process and the support service, and robust case management for long-term sickness absence. I have also asked for a refocusing on the management of sickness absence policy and procedures to ensure that it is managed robustly by Departments.

Some people say that we need to go harder on those who are off on the sick and some would say that we need to be a bit softer. I think that we need a mixture of a bit of carrot and a bit of stick. My officials are considering a wide range of options and, although my personal preference is to improve attendance through positive measures such as the prevention of illness and the promotion of a healthier lifestyle, I have not ruled out any specific options whatsoever.

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

Question 3 has been withdrawn and requires a written answer.

Daithí McKay (Sinn Féin, North Antrim)

Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. I thank the Minister for his answers so far. Evidence shows that a healthier workforce is more productive, and case studies show a correlation between walking or cycling to work and fewer sick days. Sustrans suggests that, by focusing on that and implementing appropriate measures, we could halve the number of sick days in the Civil Service.

Does the Minister agree that health and well-being are key to addressing this problem? Will he introduce, among other things, more shower facilities and bike parking facilities to give employees in the Civil Service that choice? Will he also raise the importance of better cycling infrastructure with the Minister for Regional Development?

Simon Hamilton (DUP, Strangford)

I thank the Chair for his question. I am surprised that he did not extol his own virtues as someone who is now at least attempting to cycle to work more. It is admirable that he tries to cycle all the way down from the Ballymoney area to Belfast. He will be entering the Giro d'Italia if he can keep that up.

I agree that having a healthier workforce is by far the best way to deal with this problem. I am prepared to recommend to Executive colleagues that we introduce a whole range of measures, some of which are very much focused on employee engagement, and some of which, perhaps, look at the terms and conditions on sickness absence. I would rather not have to do that if we can ensure that we promote a healthier workforce, and that includes walking and cycling to work.

My Department — indeed, the entire Civil Service — promotes a cycle to work scheme that gives financial incentives to members of staff to purchase bikes. We have seen some of the benefits of that, but there could always be more improvements. I know that the Member asked a written question recently about showering facilities in Civil Service buildings. The numbers that we have are more encouraging than I thought was the case, but, of course, where circumstances allow, there is space to do it and it is appropriate to do it, I would like to see that increased. Of course, when we move into new buildings, which is something that we are doing to rationalise our estate, it will be one of the criteria that we will be looking at to make sure that it is there so that we can encourage more people to cycle to work.

Samuel Gardiner (UUP, Upper Bann)

What proportion of sickness absence in the Civil Service is due to stress or other psychiatric conditions?

Simon Hamilton (DUP, Strangford)

I thank the Member for his question. It is an important area of consideration. The proportion of working days lost due to psychiatric illnesses such as anxiety, stress, depression and others was 29·8%, so nearly 30% of the total, in 2012-13. Obviously, wanting to be considered as a considerate employer, that is a very high level and a cause for concern. That will be the focus and attention of a lot of the measures that I want to see addressed by officials in their review of what we do on sickness.

It is worth remembering that, even though the Member's question and follow-up questions have focused on the amount of sickness that takes place, over half of all civil servants — 52·3% — do not take a single sick day all year. That is worth noting and remembering when we discuss the issue.

Alastair Ross (DUP, East Antrim)

4. asked the Minister of Finance and Personnel for an update on the work of the public sector reform division. (AQO 5178/11-15)

Simon Hamilton (DUP, Strangford)

As Members will be aware, public sector reform is a high priority for me. Going forward, finances will be tight and there will be greater demand from a better informed, growing and ageing population. My agenda is not to shrink public services but to make better use of the resources that we have for the public sector.

One of my first actions as Minister was to establish the new public sector reform division, to which the Member has referred. The director has been appointed, and he is currently identifying a small, multidisciplinary team to develop and progress a work programme of activity. That programme is being informed by researching best practice approaches that have merit from other parts of the world. Meanwhile, I and the senior staff within the public sector reform division have been engaging with industry, the community and voluntary sector and trade unions to listen to their views and thoughts on the opportunities for delivering reform in the Northern Ireland Civil Service, arm's-length bodies and local councils.

I will ensure that the public sector reform division is a resource that will not only concentrate on DFP activity, or those areas where I, as Finance Minister, have lead responsibility for joined-up areas, but is available to help all ministerial colleagues. By improving public services across the board, everyone will gain and we will have the best opportunity to maximise the public resources available to all of our citizens.

Alastair Ross (DUP, East Antrim)

The Minister has made no secret of his desire to see public sector reform. Indeed, I have heard him speak passionately about it in a number of different forums. Will he highlight to the House which organisations, groups or Departments he has met and what kind of reaction he has had from them to his proposals?

Simon Hamilton (DUP, Strangford)

I thank the Member for his question. As I alluded to in the first answer, I have met a variety of organisations, including business organisations such as the Confederation of British Industry (CBI), the Chamber of Commerce and Industry and others. I have also met trade unions. I met the Irish Congress of Trade Unions (ICTU) and NIPSA separately. I have also met the Northern Ireland Council for Voluntary Action, which hosted a very useful session with about 40 of its member organisations just over a week ago. That is a fairly broad and eclectic bunch of people.

The response that I have had has been almost universally enthusiastic. Obviously, those different groups will come at the issue from slightly different perspectives, but what is encouraging for me in taking forward public sector reform right across Northern Ireland is that everybody agrees that they want to see a much more efficient, effective and innovative public sector. We may squabble and disagree from time to time on how that actually happens on the ground, but I am enthused by the fact that everybody is on board with the principle and a conversation has started across Northern Ireland on the issue.

We have not just focused on Northern Ireland. I have met the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development, and also, last week, I met the European Commission's Directorate-General for Research and Innovation, which is focusing a lot of its work and attention on the very issue of public sector innovation. I am very keen to continue and follow up that engagement to see what Northern Ireland can contribute across the whole of Europe to improving public sector innovation in all member states and all regions.

There is an opportunity for Northern Ireland to share what we do well, but also to learn from the experiences of others.

Pat Sheehan (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle, gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as a fhreagraí. The Minister is right about the need to introduce innovation and risk taking into the Civil Service, albeit well thought through risk taking. However, does he now recognise that attacking the integrity of the Public Accounts Committee (PAC) and the Audit Office was the wrong way to go about it, and will he now withdraw those remarks?

Simon Hamilton (DUP, Strangford)

I do not think that I have anything to withdraw. I do not think that I ever attacked the credibility or integrity of anybody in this House. During the recent debate on the Public Accounts Committee's work for the previous year, I think I did what it was my duty and responsibility to do.

In response to a question yesterday from Mr Dallat, the Deputy Chair of that Committee, I highlighted that I accept where good work is carried out by the Public Accounts Committee, particularly when it focuses not just on value for money but on where we in the public sector sometimes fail to achieve the outcomes that we desire. However, I will not cease in pointing out issues to the PAC. I cannot sit here, and Executive colleagues cannot stand here either, and just take one-way traffic from the PAC all the time. We have the right to push back, every bit as much as they have the right to come at us.

When some comments made publicly by the PAC and its members do damage to the principle of public sector innovation and cause civil servants to think twice about taking a well thought out and carefully considered risk, the work of the PAC is damaging. When the PAC goes into the public domain and says things such as there is a sense or air of corruption about a particular contract, without putting into the public domain any evidence whatsoever about that, it should reflect on whether it is right and proper to accuse people in the public arena — who have no comeback — of being corrupt, and whether that has a positive or negative impact on the principles of public sector reform, which I think that he and I agree on.

Judith Cochrane (Alliance, Belfast East)

I thank the Minister for his answers thus far. The Minister will know that I am a big fan of his public sector reform ideas. How regularly does he meet with his Executive colleagues to discuss potential opportunities to improve service delivery, and are some Departments more willing to engage than others?

Simon Hamilton (DUP, Strangford)

I am glad that I have one fan. I have yet to meet regularly with ministerial colleagues on this particular issue, although I hope to meet them on a one-to-one basis over the coming months as we progress the 2015-16 Budget. I want to see that Budget as an opportunity to discuss public sector reform and innovation. As we look at a public spending environment that is likely to see contraction, particularly on the current expenditure side, it is important that I seek to focus the minds of colleagues on trying to reform their own Departments. The Budget is an incredibly important opportunity to do that.

Whilst I may have views on which Ministers may be better at engaging than others, given that I have yet to engage with them properly, I will not be drawn into any comment about whether they are good boys, bad boys or otherwise.

Phil Flanagan (Sinn Féin, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

5. asked the Minister of Finance and Personnel for an update on communication between his Department and the Treasury regarding the country and regional analysis. (AQO 5179/11-15)

Simon Hamilton (DUP, Strangford)

I thank the Member for his question. Officials have liaised as normal with the Treasury in providing the necessary information used for the production of the country and regional analysis that the Treasury produces on an annual basis.

Phil Flanagan (Sinn Féin, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

I thank the Minister for his deeply informative answer, but can he give me an assurance that he is scrutinising line by line all lines of expenditure attached to the North through that analysis, given the continuing delay in publishing, which has been attributed to quality assurance issues?

Simon Hamilton (DUP, Strangford)

Absolutely. It was as carefully considered an answer as it was a question, I suggest. I can confirm that I carefully considered this report, particularly since the Member raised it via his question. It would not make comfortable reading for somebody of his political persuasion, because it shows very clearly that identifiable expenditure per head for England, Scotland and Wales was £8,500, £10,100 and £9,700 respectively. Spending per head in Northern Ireland was the highest in the whole of the United Kingdom at £10,900, which represents 124% of the UK average.

Mr Flanagan and many of his colleagues habitually come to this House and say how much better off we would be if we left the United Kingdom and join in a united Ireland, which is, of course, in dire financial straits. The report that Mr Flanagan's question has helpfully highlighted only goes to show that Northern Ireland is receiving an exceptionally good deal through its membership of the United Kingdom. So, I encourage the Member to carefully consider a report that shows that, in Northern Ireland, we spend the highest levels per head of population in the UK on education, social protection, agriculture and many other areas of public expenditure. So, I encourage the Member to read the very report that he highlighted in his questions. I am sure that it will encourage him to question his political views.

Ian McCrea (DUP, Mid Ulster)

There is no doubt that the report the Minister referred to reassures our connection with the rest of the United Kingdom. The Members across the Chamber could learn from that. Will the Minister outline how we, in Northern Ireland, compare with other regions in the United Kingdom; namely, Scotland and Wales?

Simon Hamilton (DUP, Strangford)

I agree with the Member: I hope that the Members opposite do learn from the report, although I suspect that they will not. Even when it is presented evidentially in black and white in front of them, I suspect that they will not reach an objective conclusion.

As I pointed out in response to the Member opposite, the report makes favourable reading for Northern Ireland. In some ways, I am not proud of the fact that we are so dependent on other taxpayers in the United Kingdom for the lifestyles and the public expenditure that we have in Northern Ireland. As we grow our economy and our economy improves, I would like to see us closing that gap over time and not being as dependent on taxpayers elsewhere in the United Kingdom for public expenditure here. From this report, we see that, in Northern Ireland, we have £10,900 spent per head of the population compared with £8,500 in England, which is the lowest figure. That shows that Northern Ireland's people are getting an exceptionally good deal out of their membership of the United Kingdom.

Basil McCrea (NI21, Lagan Valley)

6. asked the Minister of Finance and Personnel for his assessment of the creation of a commission on devolution in Northern Ireland similar to the Silk and Calman commissions in Wales and Scotland. (AQO 5180/11-15)

Simon Hamilton (DUP, Strangford)

I thank the Member for his question. The 'Building a Prosperous and United Community' document commits us to examining the potential for devolving additional fiscal powers by autumn 2014. As part of that, we are examining the Calman commission and Silk commission reports. As both produced similar findings, a full commission to consider the devolution of fiscal powers to Northern Ireland may not be justified.

The most important consideration for us is the devolution of corporation tax. Clearly, we want to draw on the findings, but I do not want to unduly delay this work. The economic pact commitment is to put recommendations to the Executive by autumn 2014, and I want to achieve that. Therefore, there are no plans at this stage to establish a commission for Northern Ireland.

Basil McCrea (NI21, Lagan Valley)

Does the Minister agree that, after the Scottish referendum, in which I am confident that Scotland will vote to remain a part of the United Kingdom, it is likely that there will be further examination of the devolution of fiscal powers to the Scottish and Welsh regions? Does he not accept that Northern Ireland will be at a disadvantage when such discussions take place because we do not have a commission that will have looked at all the possibilities?

Simon Hamilton (DUP, Strangford)

I do not accept that we would be at a disadvantage. I hope that the Member is right in his conclusion about the Scottish referendum, not least because the result that he and I want will hasten the devolution of corporation tax powers to Northern Ireland. That would be an exceptionally large undertaking for this Administration. We have had the devolution of air passenger duty (APD) powers for direct long-haul flights. That is an important thing to note, because it is something that Wales and Scotland are very envious of. They requested those powers from Treasury but were turned down. So, if the Member and I were sitting in a different Administration, in Edinburgh or Cardiff, we might be asking whether we were at a disadvantage to Northern Ireland because it has devolution of APD powers for direct long-haul flights.

As devolution embeds across the UK, different devolved regions will seek the devolution of different tax powers to suit their particular objectives. It is not that I am or the Executive are against pursuing the devolution of certain tax powers. As I said, we have already secured APD, and we are vigorously pursuing corporation tax powers, which, as we all know, would have a transformative effect on our economy. We do that where there is a clear economic benefit for Northern Ireland.

Some of the taxes that have been or will be devolved to Scotland and that are also being sought by Wales do not, I think, give them an economic advantage over Northern Ireland. In fact, I fail to see what huge transformative economic advantage would come from having powers over landfill tax or, indeed, stamp duty. That is not to disregard those taxes or to say that we would not consider devolving them, but, from my discussions with Ministers in those regions, I think that they are quite envious of what we have and what we are pursuing in terms of corporation tax.

Rosaleen McCorley (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as a fhreagraí go dtí seo. I thank the Minister for his answers up to now. Given that the Scottish tax forecast was published for the first time last year, does the Minister not agree that he should be arguing for more accurate tax forecasts so that we can have more informed economic decision-making?

Simon Hamilton (DUP, Strangford)

The HMRC also recently published its estimates of taxes and what each region is contributing via taxes. Again, much like Mr Flanagan's question, that does not make for entirely pretty reading for Northern Ireland. It shows that we are in receipt of quite a large subvention from the United Kingdom, which the Member will know. That sits at £10·5 billion, which is a huge amount of money for us to receive.

Of course it would be better if we had much more accurate figures about what we raise in tax. It certainly would help us in our ongoing discussions on corporation tax if we were able to hollow out precisely what we raise and what it will cost the Exchequer to devolve those powers to Northern Ireland. By its very nature, and given the type of state that we have, it is hard to get a precise figure for what taxes are raised in Northern Ireland versus what taxes are raised in Scotland or Wales and other regions of the United Kingdom. There are figures that do marry up. If you look at the HMRC's report versus our net fiscal balance report, you will see that there are a lot of similarities, and that shows that, by using similar methodologies, we are, more or less, getting the right answer.

Fearghal McKinney (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast South)

I would not be as confident as Mr McCrea appears to be in reading the Scottish public's mind on devolution. What powers identified by the Silk and Calman commissions would the Minister consider for devolution to Northern Ireland?

Simon Hamilton (DUP, Strangford)

Rather than the Member joining the soothsayer in the far corner in reading into what the Scottish electorate might think, I think, from listening to recent reports, that it may be better if the Member and his colleagues started to think about what the nationalist electorate in Northern Ireland is thinking. That may be more beneficial for him and his party in the short term.

I have to say that I come to the taxes that we are considering with a fairly open mind. I think that there are considerable issues with many of the taxes that we may get if we were to request them from Treasury. Take, for example, income tax: the HMRC report, which I referred to in response to the previous Member who spoke, showed that Northern Ireland raises about £3·5 billion in income tax every year. If we were to devolve that, it begs this question: do you want to put that level up or do you want to take it down? Both have consequences for costs. If you put it up, people are going to have to pay for it. If you bring it down, it means less money for public services. Even if you keep it static, there would be administration costs, in the same way that there are for corporation tax. There also is the fluctuation cost, in that you are dependent on what the take is in any particular year. Over the past couple of years, we have seen the tax take on income tax go down by £200 million in Northern Ireland, according to the HMRC. That would be £200 million that we would have to meet out of our own Budget, instead of getting it back through the subvention that we get in the block grant. So, there are considerations like that. Sometimes, it looks attractive, but that is superficial.

In response to Mr McCrea, I mentioned issues about landfill tax and stamp duty. If we were to devolve those, there may be things that we would be able to do that are good for policy, but I seriously doubt whether those two or income tax would have the sort of transformative effect that corporation tax powers would have on our economy. That is why I would argue that we should be focused, first and foremost, on that number one priority to see corporation tax powers devolved to Northern Ireland. Let us ensure that we can do that and deliver on it, and then, following on from that, we can look at other options.

Robin Newton (DUP, Belfast East)

I thank the Minister for the very articulate way in which he has dealt with the question, which is one that is arousing interest in the Assembly and elsewhere. Will he be quite specific about why we are not pressing the Government to be treated in exactly the same way as Scotland and Wales on the matter?

Simon Hamilton (DUP, Strangford)

I thank the Member for his question. I am more than happy to have the debate about whether we should devolve additional tax powers to the Stormont Assembly and what powers we should devolve. It is a conversation that we should have. It perhaps shows a sign of our growing maturity as an institution that we are prepared to consider additional tax devolution powers coming to the Assembly. However, we have to do so in a very open way. As I said in reply to the Member who spoke previously, we have to consider that sometimes doing so can look attractive superficially, but, when you bore into it, it is not the best idea for Northern Ireland, given the financial position that we find ourselves in.

I am very happy to have the discussion, but we have to approach discussion on what powers we would consider devolving to Northern Ireland on the basis of some principles. The foremost principle for doing so is that it is of economic benefit to Northern Ireland. We did not perhaps want to see air passenger duty in itself devolved, but it was the means of ensuring that we kept the direct flight from Belfast to New York. As I mentioned, corporation tax is something that we are pursuing because we can see the long-term economic benefit for Northern Ireland.

Some might want to see other powers being devolved for political or accountability reasons. I think that the Scottish Government in particular are pursuing a lot of those powers because it suits their political agenda. The powers do not necessarily suit the fiscal situation or the economy in Scotland, but the Government want to do it politically. We have to be very clear that we will consider any and all taxes being devolved to the Assembly if they produce an economic benefit and are, of course, affordable to the Assembly and the people whom we serve.

Paul Givan (DUP, Lagan Valley)

7. asked the Minister of Finance and Personnel for an update on the delivery of the Desertcreat project. (AQO 5181/11-15)

Simon Hamilton (DUP, Strangford)

I thank the Member for his question. The addendum to the business case was formally approved by my Department on 26 November this year. The tender process will now be completed and a preferred bidder appointed. It is expected that construction of the new Community Safety College at Desertcreat will commence in the new year. The delivery of the new police, fire and prison training college is a key Programme for Government commitment. The investment will deliver a world-class training facility for those essential public services, which have suffered from underinvestment by direct rule Ministers.

Paul Givan (DUP, Lagan Valley)

I thank the Minister for that announcement. Obviously, we have been pursuing the project for a long time. It has been bedevilled by delays, but, finally, the Minister has been able to announce that progress has been made. How much of Her Majesty's Treasury funding is tied up in the project and when does that need to be paid for?

Simon Hamilton (DUP, Strangford)

I thank the Member for his follow-up question. I am very glad to announce that we have been able to make progress on that scheme. The Member, through his chairmanship of the Justice Committee, will know that what is proposed is a world-class facility. I am absolutely certain that police forces and fire services from around the world will want to visit it and use it to train their staff.

The Member is right to raise the issue of Her Majesty's Treasury funding. Under the devolution of policing and justice settlement, Her Majesty's Treasury provided some £70·3 million in a ring-fenced fund for the Northern Ireland Community Safety College. The Department of Justice currently enjoys end-year flexibility for those funds and will continue to do so until the end of the Budget period in 2015. It is my understanding, however, that if those funds are not utilised by April 2015, there is a possibility that some of that ring-fenced element may be lost to the Treasury.

I have agreed with the Chief Secretary to the Treasury that we will continue to monitor closely the delivery of the project, but my message to the Department of Justice is that it needs to proceed post-haste. I appreciate that there have been delays and that not all of them have been of that Department's making by any means whatsoever, but it needs to proceed post-haste to access that £70·3 million of funding ring-fenced and set aside for the project.

Cathal Ó hOisín (Sinn Féin, East Londonderry)

Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire. Is there any provision in the contract for social clauses similar to those in the DCAL stadium development programme?

Simon Hamilton (DUP, Strangford)

A contract is not yet in place. The tender process was paused because of the cost overrun. The estimated cost was at one level, and the prices that came in were substantially higher. The bill of reductions exercise reduced the construction costs by some £25 million. As the Member will know, the Executive are committed to ensuring that there are social clauses in all contracts moving forward, not just construction contracts. I fully expect that this contract, like all other contracts, will include social clauses. Given that they are construction contracts, they will, not exclusively but particularly, concentrate on long-term unemployed people and creating apprenticeships.

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

That concludes oral questions to the Minister. We now move to topical questions. Question 2 has been withdrawn.

Raymond McCartney (Sinn Féin, Foyle)

1. asked the Minister of Finance and Personnel whether he has had any discussions with the Ulster Bank in light of the recent glitches in its IT systems and, if so, what was the outcome of those discussions and did he receive any reassurances. (AQT 471/11-15)

Simon Hamilton (DUP, Strangford)

I thank the Member for his very topical question. It is probably the first topical question that I have had, even though this is my fourth go at this. Yes, I have had discussions. I did that as soon as I became aware that problems were developing last night and customers were expressing concern that they could not make payments or access their money at cash machines. That caused some embarrassment in stores when they could not pay. When they needed emergency access to cash at a hole in the wall, they could not get it. I made contact and had communication overnight and early this morning with Ulster Bank. This afternoon, I spoke on the telephone to Stephen Cruise, the head of retail banking at Ulster Bank.

The bank accepts and understands that this has been bad news for its customers. It is the third time that such an incident has happened, albeit not as bad as the one back in June 2012. I think that we can seek some solace and reassurance from the fact that, I am told, it is not the same IT issue. I am not sure whether that is something to seek solace from, but it is not the same problem, so one would not expect the recurrence and the longevity of the previous problem. I am informed that all problems have now been overcome and that the problem that arose last evening now seems to be fixed. There are some indications that, in RBS across the water, some problems still exist.

I know that other banks have had similar issues, but this is, of course, the third time that Ulster Bank has had problems. I do not think that Ulster Bank needs me to tell it that this causes some damage to its reputation and that it causes its customers some concern. I have sought some assurances, in so far as I can, that this sort of incident will not happen again, but we are dealing with IT systems, and who knows what can happen? I take some solace from the fact that the bank has assured me that RBS continues to invest quite heavily in its IT systems because it appreciates and realises that this is causing it difficulties.

Raymond McCartney (Sinn Féin, Foyle)

Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire. I thank the Minister for his comprehensive answer. Given that, as the Minister has said, this is happening all too frequently, does he agree that part of the discussion has to be about a decoupling of the Ulster Bank IT systems from those of the Royal Bank of Scotland to protect us here?

Simon Hamilton (DUP, Strangford)

That is an operational matter that would have to be considered by Ulster Bank in the context of its ownership by the RBS group. I imagine that decoupling would come at a considerable cost to Ulster Bank, and I would be worried that, although, in some ways, it might seem to be the right thing to do, it might come with a huge price tag to customers here in Northern Ireland, who would, ultimately, have to pay for something like that. On the basis that I have no authority or say at all over what the banks do, I will continue to press them.

The Ulster Bank, as we have recognised previously in this House, is critical to the banking system in Northern Ireland and, ergo, critical to the economy in Northern Ireland. It is important that its customers can access their funds when they need to.

I am assured by the bank that anyone who has been out of pocket as a result of this latest problem will be reimbursed. Anyone who continues to experience problems of any kind should call into their local branch or telephone Ulster Bank's call centre.

I am worried about one other aspect, which I think is worth reiterating in the House, in case anyone is listening. Some criminals appear to be trying to capitalise on this and are issuing phishing e-mails to Ulster Bank customers saying that, because of the system crash, they should re-enter their account details. It would be a terrible shame if people, having had the embarrassment of not being able to make a payment, were to fall foul of criminal activity. I take this opportunity to reiterate to the general public not to fall for that. The bank will not be asking anyone for their personal identification number, their bank account details or anything like that online.

Alex Easton (DUP, North Down)

3. asked the Minister of Finance and Personnel what measures he can take to prevent the Executive’s 2013-14 allocation of financial transactions capital being surrendered to Her Majesty’s Government. (AQT 473/11-15)

Simon Hamilton (DUP, Strangford)

I thank the Member for his question. Over recent months, I have, along with my Scottish and Welsh counterparts, lobbied the Chief Secretary to the Treasury for end-year flexibility in respect of financial transactions capital, which, as the Member and the House will know, is a new device that the Government are bringing forward to try to increase spending on capital projects in the private sector. I am pleased to confirm that such a scheme has now been agreed between Treasury and the devolved Administrations.

The scheme will allow the Northern Ireland Executive flexibility to carry forward unspent financial transactions capital funding across each of the next two financial years. This flexibility amounts to 20% carry forward of unused financial transactions capital funding into 2014-15 and 10% into 2015-16. That will ensure that we have more time to develop suitable schemes and will significantly reduce the risk of any funding being surrendered to Her Majesty's Treasury.

Alex Easton (DUP, North Down)

What is the position for Scotland and Wales?

Simon Hamilton (DUP, Strangford)

Scotland and Wales will receive the same flexibilities that Northern Ireland is receiving. They will receive 20% carry over in the first year and 10% in the second year. I am not sure what that represents as regards their total expenditure, but, for Northern Ireland, I can inform the House that this year we will be able to carry forward £9·4 million into next year, and next year we will be able to carry forward £5·4 million into 2015-16.

I have been encouraged by the engagement that I and my officials have had with other Departments. Departments are now starting to come forward with some exceptionally good schemes that would use up financial transactions capital. I am optimistic that we will not have to use all of the carry forward provision. Nonetheless, it is a useful device to have in case we hit a situation where, because these schemes are very demand led, one may not move forward and we may need to have flexibility or we would possibly lose money to the Treasury, which is not something that I or anybody in the House wants to see happen.

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

Mr Kelly is not in his place for question 4.

Caitriona Ruane (Sinn Féin, South Down)

5. asked the Minister of Finance and Personnel whether he agrees that the construction of the Narrow Water Bridge would create badly needed jobs in the tourism and construction sectors. (AQT 475/11-15)

Simon Hamilton (DUP, Strangford)

I am perhaps not as disappointed as the Member, given that she represents the constituency, but I am disappointed that this scheme has not been able to go forward. Listening to representatives from the area who are in the House and to others from the area, there was a great belief that the construction of the bridge would not just improve connectivity, which is important, but would provide a boost to tourism on both sides of the border. In that respect, it is disappointing that the scheme will not be going ahead.

I am now in the position, alongside my counterpart in the Irish Republic, of having roughly £17 million worth of EU funding unspent. It is important that we get that money spent, and that is my priority. Disappointing as it will be for the Member and people in the area that the Narrow Water Bridge scheme will not be going forward, Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland must now make sure that we spend the money that we got from Europe on a project.