Northern Ireland Assembly, 9 December 2013

438 contributions from 70 members. The official report.

Ministerial Statement

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

As the Minister needs to leave for official business abroad, I have agreed that, in the circumstances and because of the importance of the subject matter in the statement, I will allow it to be taken before the matters of the day.

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

I sincerely thank you and your office, Mr Speaker, for facilitating us in this respect. This is a hugely important statement, and I appreciate the opportunity to respond to all the questions that come forward thereafter.

The statement concerns the future delivery of paediatric congenital cardiac and interventional cardiac services for the population of Northern Ireland. At the outset, I reiterate that my key priority throughout this process has been and remains to ensure the delivery of a safe, durable and high-quality service for vulnerable children. In that context, I have also sought to ensure that the concerns that have been raised with me by parents and clinicians have been fully and effectively explored.

Members will recall that, on 7 May 2013, the Assembly resolved that it noted the publication of the preferred option document by the paediatric congenital cardiac services (PCCS) working group and the related Children's Heartbeat Trust report and called on me to reject the recommendation of a Dublin-only service for the future commissioning of regional paediatric cardiac surgery and interventional cardiology and to select a model which retains primary provision and the ability to operate on emergency admissions in Belfast. In responding to the motion, I said that there was no easy solution to all of this. I hear from one side that, if you take a decision to remove services from Belfast and have surgical services provided outside Belfast, children will lose their life; I hear people from the other side say that, given the complexity of paediatric congenital cardiac surgery, children will lose their life if the service is not based at a larger centre. I remarked that you would need the wisdom of Solomon and a whole lot more to get this right. It is a hugely challenging and emotive issue that never strays far from my mind. It is incredibly difficult to square this circle.

From the outset, I have been clear that, if at all possible, I want to avoid the need for children from Northern Ireland to travel to Great Britain for heart surgery, except in the most complex cases that require highly specialised treatment. I believe that that is right for two reasons. First, parents should not be placed in a position of having to travel overseas with their child because of the strain that that can place on family life at a time when they wish to be close to their vulnerable child but may have other children at home to care for and jobs to hold down. Secondly, I have made it clear that I wish to see children’s heart surgery retained in Belfast, if possible, so that we can respond to the relatively few emergency situations in which the child’s chances of survival might be increased if they were operated on in Belfast. I also believe that, by retaining a surgical capability in Belfast, our capacity to maintain associated paediatric services, primarily interventional cardiology, would be strengthened over the long term.

The recommendation of the PCCS working group that children’s heart surgery should in future be commissioned primarily from Our Lady’s Children’s Hospital in Dublin marked a step forward in that that recommendation holds the prospect that the majority of children and their parents would not have to travel to GB for surgery, whatever long-term model emerges.

I recognise the significant efforts made by the working group, the Health and Social Care Board and the Public Health Agency to find a solution to this challenging issue. I understand fully and agree with its position that safety considerations in the delivery of this service are of paramount importance. At the centre of this is the question of how to run a 24/7 service that meets all the standards. Clinical advice tells us that surgeons doing interventional work should individually carry out in the order of 100 of these procedures each year to maintain skills and expertise. Our patient numbers in Northern Ireland are so small that we would never be able to reach the recommended capacity levels on our own. The recommendation that was put to me by the working group is based on the fact that Dublin is a centre with a potential capacity to deliver a sufficient volume of procedures to meet clinical standards. However, that would mean the ending of surgery in Belfast. Before I could consider that, I have to be fully assured that there is no feasible available option to retain surgery in Belfast. Therefore, I wanted to look at other potential options before making a final decision on this important matter.

Having considered all of the advice that has been put to me, I take the view that the only prospect for retaining children’s heart surgery in Belfast on a long-term basis is to forge a children’s heart services integrated network arrangement between the Belfast Trust and the Dublin children’s heart centre. This network offers the prospect of a single service, providing surgery in both Belfast and Dublin. I cannot guarantee that such a model would necessarily provide a solution in the longer term, but it is only right that I should exhaust every avenue to find out if it would be possible to deliver a model such as that. It is also only right that I am guided by the best possible expert professional advice in considering this. Such decisions matter too much to get wrong.

With that in mind, I have worked closely with my counterpart in the Republic of Ireland, Dr James Reilly TD, to establish whether we could create the conditions to allow for a fuller assessment of possible options for the delivery of cardiology and cardiac surgery for congenital heart disease on the island of Ireland. Such an all-island approach represents a much broader consideration of potential service models than previous reviews were at liberty to consider. I am pleased to inform the Assembly that Dr Reilly and I have been able to create those conditions. I will now relay to Members a joint statement that Dr Reilly and I have agreed, which will be issued today by our respective Departments.

“Minister James Reilly TD and Minister Edwin Poots MLA today together announced that a team of three international clinicians will carry out an independent assessment of current and future needs for cardiology and cardiac surgery for congenital heart disease in the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland.

The assessment team will describe the existing hospital services in both jurisdictions, outline options for service configuration and governance arrangements and report to both Ministers, jointly, recommending the most appropriate model that meets the population health needs and other requirements of both jurisdictions.

The assessment will in this way address the needs of children and adults in relation to congenital cardiac surgery on the whole island. It is due to start in January 2014 and be completed in six months. When the Ministers receive this independent assessment, decisions can then be made on the optimal service provision which it is intended will be implemented for these services as soon as possible.

The Ministers recognise that the development and implementation of any safe and sustainable model of care requires careful planning, effective engagement and buy-in of all stakeholders, in particular family representatives and professionals, and this assessment is seen as essential to the achievement of that shared goal.

In the interim, pending the completion of the assessment in June 2014, health service management and clinicians in the Republic of Ireland will continue to work with their colleagues in Belfast to provide and develop support to the services in Northern Ireland”.

The team will be chaired by Dr John Mayer, consultant cardiac surgeon at Boston Children’s Hospital. The cardiology expertise will be provided by Dr Adrian Moran, consultant cardiologist at Maine Medical Center, Portland. An anaesthetics expert will be confirmed to complete the team before it commences work in January 2014. The team will be supported by specialist professional nursing representation and other expertise as necessary. The terms of reference for the team are set out in the annex circulated to Members with my statement. I want to thank Dr Mayer and Dr Moran for agreeing to take forward this assessment and look forward to receiving their report.

I would like to record my thanks to Minister Reilly for his efforts in working with me to secure the short-term arrangements and the assessment to be carried out by the external experts. I believe that the assessment by this external team will bring international best practice and fresh thinking to bear on this challenging issue. It provides a means of addressing the need for cardiology and cardiac surgery for congenital heart disease on the island of Ireland and to identify the most appropriate model that meets the population health needs and other requirements of both jurisdictions.

While the assessment by the international team of experts will address the long-term future of children’s heart surgery in Belfast, there is a more immediate situation to be addressed in respect of the short-term delivery of this service following Professor Wood’s retirement later this month. As the work of the international expert team on a long-term solution is taking place, Minister Reilly and I have agreed that health service management and clinicians in the Republic of Ireland will continue to work with their colleagues in Belfast to provide and develop support to the services in Northern Ireland. I very much welcome this commitment. Detailed arrangements will be finalised by health service management and clinicians, North and South, in the days ahead. As this is an operational matter, it would not be appropriate for me to comment further on this at this moment. However, I wish to make it clear that some children whose procedure is considered to be of a high risk will continue to be transferred to centres in England for surgery in line with risk management arrangements. An important point in all of this is that each and every case will be given individual consideration, and the most appropriate location for the procedure to be carried out will be determined on the basis of clinical judgement.

I also wish to inform the Assembly that I have been assured that the current PCCS service in the Belfast Trust is safe and will continue to be safe. It is, nonetheless, a fragile service, and we should not underestimate the challenges that low patient volumes present to sustaining such services. I therefore intend to take every available measure to ensure that the service in Belfast is as robust as possible, and, in the weeks ahead, children’s heart surgery will transfer from the Royal Victoria Hospital to the Royal Belfast Hospital for Sick Children. Staff will also receive training in the use of ECMO to support very sick children who require support for their heart and lungs following surgery. Both these developments have been requested by the cardiac team in the Belfast Trust as a means of further strengthening the service.

None of us should be in any doubt of the expertise, skills and dedication of the staff providing these services nor, indeed, of their care and compassion in supporting parents in extremely difficult circumstances. Those considerations and the safety of these children have remained to the forefront of my mind. I believe that it is appropriate that, at this point, I should pay tribute to Professor Freddie Wood for the service and dedication that he has given to cardiac patients from Northern Ireland. Indeed, the entire paediatric congenital cardiac team at the Belfast Trust provides a first-class service for the children of Northern Ireland.

In concluding, I hope that the arrangements that I have outlined and the assessment by the external experts will go some way to assuaging the concerns of all those who have expressed concern about the future of children’s heart surgery and interventional cardiology in Belfast. We have come a long way from the original reports, which would have removed surgical services and potentially undermined cardiology services as well. I have, on many occasions, met parents, surgeons and cardiologists. I have also visited the Clark clinic and paediatric intensive care and witnessed the care provided by clinical and nursing teams and the support provided by parents to very sick children. I wish to express my thanks for their patience in what has been a long, drawn-out process. It has been protracted because the solutions are complex and will potentially cause considerable upheaval. It will be some months before I will be in a position to reach a final decision on the long-term future of the service, but I believe that, when that time comes, I will have the benefit of having explored every possible option for securing a high-quality paediatric congenital cardiac service for the children of Northern Ireland. That has always been my clear aim and continues to be my goal. I trust that the Assembly, parents, families, clinicians and the public recognise that my only desire is to act in the best interests of everyone involved. [Interruption.]

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

Order. Before I call the Chair of the Health Committee, Maeve McMcLaughlin, I say that there are quite a number of Members who want to ask a question to the Minister on the statement. I ask Members to be brief, and, hopefully, all Members who want in will be able to make a contribution to the statement.

Maeve McLaughlin (Sinn Féin, Foyle)

Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. I thank the Minister for his statement. While this is an interim arrangement, I think this is a good day. It is a good day for the children and their families, and I welcome that. I specifically want to acknowledge the need to secure the heart services integrated network on the island of Ireland. That is an important message, and I welcome the Minister's leadership on that. I welcome the fact that some surgery will be maintained in Belfast. That is good news for the island as a whole, and it is good news for families.

I note that the Minister talked about the detailed arrangements in the short term that will be required between the Belfast Trust and the support from Dublin. Will the Minister give guarantees that, in the short term, there will be no gaps in relation to this vital service and that children who need surgery here and can access surgery here in Belfast will have that surgery here in Belfast?

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

First of all, we need to recognise that Dublin is willing to support us in this, and Dublin clinicians are willing to support us in this. I trust that the short-term support that they will give will develop into the future, but it is a very important step that is being made: we will have people with expertise on this island who will be able to travel to Belfast to provide that support for us, and our clinical team will be able to confer with, work with and develop their skills with others of real expertise on these issues.

That is of considerable importance.

We want to secure as much surgery as possible in Belfast, but, in all of this, we have to take a step back and allow the clinicians, whether that be the cardiologists or the surgeons, to do their job, in conjunction with the parents. We must allow them to give the best possible clinical advice to parents on what can achieve the best outcomes for their children. We want to support parents in supporting their children, and the best means of doing that is creating the opportunity to provide this care in Belfast, as well as in Dublin and in England, and for the clinicians, in conjunction with parents, to decide where the most appropriate place is for children to receive such surgery.

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

As Members know, the Chair of any Committee has some latitude when asking a question to the Minister, but that is where the latitude ends. I understand that, because of the importance of the statement to the House this afternoon, Members may be tempted to add further statements, but let us have questions to the statement.

Jim Wells (DUP, South Down)

I thank the Minister for his statement on what we all agree is one of the most complex and difficult issues that any Minister could face. He has outlined the way forward as far as the assessment team is concerned, but, as he knows, and I think that he referred to it, the lead surgeon in the Clark clinic in the Royal retires today.

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

Will the Member come to his question?

Jim Wells (DUP, South Down)

Will the Minister reassure us that that person will be replaced? How confident is he about that, and what will happen in the interim?

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

The Belfast Trust is seeking a replacement for Professor Wood. There has been interest in the position, which I am very pleased about, and I think that the work that we are doing will be instrumental in its delivery. If a surgeon is to come to Belfast and commit to working in conjunction with the other surgeon in Belfast, being part of a larger team, having the support of that team and having the ability to develop their expertise will be very important at a personal level. It will also be very important for the people for whom the surgeon will provide care, because you want that surgeon to be maximising their skill base and ensuring that they are well equipped to deal with the eventualities that will come before them.

Fearghal McKinney (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast South)

This morning, we met some of the families directly involved. Of course, delay and indecision form part of their consideration. We might have some concerns about how this would inject further delay. As well as the quality thresholds demanded by the commissioners, at least part of the consideration here is the general weakening of the team. Mr Wells has referred specifically, but, in a general sense, what guarantees can the Minister give that this six months will not lead to a further weakening of the team in Belfast?

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

We have a very strong cardiology team in Belfast. I pay tribute to the team because it carries out amazing work and has the confidence of patients and parents in that work. I believe that the decisions that we are taking today will help to ensure that the cardiology team has confidence that we are listening to it and that we are seeking to arrive at the right solution, not the rushed solution.

We have a commitment from the existing surgeon that he wishes to continue to serve in Belfast. We are attempting to get to the point at which he will have the necessary support to allow him to continue to practise in Belfast, performing surgery on children in Belfast, and to develop his skills. So everything that we are doing is about ensuring the sustainability of the service, but we also need to ensure the safety of the children. Those two elements are absolutely key. I cannot do this without the assistance of others, and I greatly appreciate the assistance being provided to us by others.

Robin Swann (UUP, North Antrim)

I sincerely thank the Minister for his statement. He knows that that is well meant. I declare an interest, in that I have a 10-month-old son who recently underwent cardiac surgery, and I am the chair of the all-party group on congenital heart disease. I congratulate the Minister on setting up an expert team of clinicians, rather than administrators and managers, to give that advice because that is crucial.

I want to ask specifically about sustainability, which is at point iv(b) in the terms of reference and which the Minister mentioned in his previous answer. Can he assure the House that the criteria for sustainability used in the previous review, 'Safe and Sustainable Review of Children's Congenital Cardiac Services in England', which was discredited in England and Wales, will not be used? That is what put the Belfast surgery under pressure and threat.

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

I thank the Member for his question. I wish him, his wife and young Evan all the best for the future. I know that Evan has received excellent care. There really is fantastic care available for children with congenital cardiac problems. As well as that, I have to say that what is provided for us in England by way of skills, and what they bring to the table there, is fantastic.

Sustainability is about how we can actually provide a service that is robust and ensures we have that safety and that continuum of expertise on site, and that we do not provide something that is second rate. I know that the Member and, indeed, all of the other families do not want a service in Belfast that is not as good as services elsewhere. That is where we fall into a problem: we just do not have the numbers to sustain the service in that way. That is why we have to look to others to provide support. Working in a team with another institution is necessary.

This report will not be on the same basis as the Kennedy report; it will be based on how best we can provide services for the children of Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland and how we can work together to do so. I hope that we will be able to provide more and more surgery, both in Belfast and Dublin, as the years pass by. Indeed, the skills that are developed on both sites will ensure that, potentially, fewer children will have to travel to England to receive surgery, albeit that that will be there for us when it is absolutely necessary.

Kieran McCarthy (Alliance, Strangford)

During this further six-month delay, there will need to be safe and sustainable services for children who are born while the Minister is waiting for the group to report. How does he plan to monitor that those services and training provide adequate services now that Professor Wood is retiring?

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

In respect of all of that, the Public Health Agency and the Health and Social Care Board have very important roles to ensure that standards are met. They will continue to do that. Professor Wood's absence will be filled and supported by clinicians of standing from Dublin. They will provide that support. We should not underestimate the effort involved on their part and the challenges they face. We need to appreciate their offer to us in that respect, and we will be able to sustain a service in Belfast during the six-month intervening period while we work towards a final solution. It is very important that we get the right solution. I have confidence that the team that is looking at this has the requisite skills and understands families' needs. That came through to me very clearly when I met Professor Mayer earlier this year.

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

I suppose that others have looked at North/South issues and they have always had a political dimension. Let me be absolutely clear: there is no political dimension here. This is about children, their healthcare and saving their lives. To anybody who says that Poots is a traitor because he has gone down this particular route, I say that I would be a traitor to the children of Northern Ireland if I did not go down this particular route.

It is absolutely critical that on such issues, particularly where there are rare diseases and less common illnesses involved, we work very closely together. I know that the folks in the Republic of Ireland will be delighted to work with people in GB when it comes to other rare illnesses. Indeed, on this issue, they are very happy to have children treated in England. There is absolutely nothing political in the nature of this; it is purely about children's healthcare and providing the best possible healthcare for children. If we cannot collaborate on something such as that, there is no hope for us at all.

Mickey Brady (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. I, too, thank the Minister for his statement. He has advised that Dr Mayer and his review team will recommend:

"the most appropriate model that meets the population health needs and other requirements of both jurisdictions."

Can he give us some idea of the issues that might come under the heading of "other requirements of both jurisdictions"?

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

Clinicians will need to have confidence that the service that they are providing is the best possible service. Whether they are cardiologists or surgeons, they will not want to compromise the safety of any child for whom they are providing care. Therefore, it is very important that that aspect be given full consideration.

When I met Dr Mayer, it struck me that his team carries out around 1,000 surgeries a year, which is twice as many as are carried out on the island of Ireland. He indicated that they perform surgery at a number of sites, including at one site that is just four miles away because the parents had confidence in the hospital to which they were used to going. Dr Mayer made it very clear that huge consideration had to be given to the needs of parents and families. This is not purely an issue about what clinicians want but about how they can provide the best possible safe service while meeting the needs of parents, and, indeed, those of children, who need their parents at their bedside as much as possible over their period of care.

I cannot guarantee any outcomes, but we have established a team that will take all the issues into account and hear them fairly. It will not be a rushed report, nor will it simply suggest that we should do what follows in an offhand way. It will be something that will have huge consideration applied to it. Whatever comes out of it, we will know that all the issues involved were fully and properly assessed.

David McIlveen (DUP, North Antrim)

I, too, thank the Minister for his statement. He mentioned the international team that has been set up to help with the review. Can he assure local parents, who are obviously those whom we want to support, that they will be included in the process, brought along with the review and kept fully informed?

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

Yes. There has been a very strong lobby from parents, and I appreciate that. They will certainly be kept involved in the process. At the outset, David Simpson MP brought two families, the McKee family and the Flaherty family, to meet me. Little Grace McKee and little Jake Flaherty were with us that day, and it was obvious that they were quite unwell. Consequently, I received an invitation from Julie Flaherty to visit the family in hospital, which I did. Jake was very unwell at that point, and he went on for a number of weeks, celebrating his birthday shortly after that visit, but he passed away only a couple of days later. I made a promise to myself that I would do my darnedest to ensure that we sought to deliver a service for such children in Belfast. That was always pre-eminent for me. I wanted to do it for wee Jake.

Alasdair McDonnell (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast South)

I thank the Minister. Indeed, I congratulate him and welcome the progress that he has made on this highly sensitive issue. Could I put on the record the debt of gratitude that the House and the community owe to Freddie Wood, who came out of retirement to help us to sustain a service in Belfast over the past number of years? He is a quiet, unassuming man who has done us a powerful service in keeping going.

My colleague Fearghal McKinney spoke about the parents. Indeed, I joined him this morning with those parents outside Linenhall Street in a discussion of their concerns. I ask the Minister whether deskilling will be an issue for the sustainability of this, because it is a big concern for many of the staff involved. Can he reassure us that deskilling will be on the agenda and that contracts going forward for Belfast-based staff will perhaps be arranged in such a way that means that those staff will rotate through any main centre that is created in Dublin, with the result that high-quality skills will be preserved and the Belfast-based staff will not be allowed to deskill or fragment?

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

It is not for me to dictate to the people who are carrying out the report what they need to put in it, but I think that that is a very obvious area that will have to be assessed. I do not want there to be surgeons in Belfast who are not maintaining their skills and developing whilst others are, because the service will quickly become second-rate. So, the opportunity to serve as part of a larger team and to be integral members of that team strikes me as absolutely necessary. We will wait and see what the report recommends, but I would be very surprised if a report recommended basing surgery in Belfast that did not have that type of integral working with the larger team in Dublin.

Roy Beggs (UUP, East Antrim)

I thank the Minister for his statement. Under the evaluation and scoring models, he indicated that safety and a relationship to primary, secondary and emergency transport services will be considered. He also indicated that clinicians wish to ensure the safety of the children who are under their care. Can the Minister assure the families that the health and well-being of those children who need urgent care, who may not be fit to travel and who may be affected by delay are given appropriate weighting in the review so that they are able —

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

I encourage the Member to finish.

Roy Beggs (UUP, East Antrim)

— so that they are able to reach the surgeons and receive the care that is needed?

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

Our Lady's hospital has advised Belfast trusts that it cannot guarantee at this time that it can continue to take the transfer of 20 to 30 emergency cases during 2014. Therefore, it is essential that we retain a surgical service in Belfast that can provide support if necessary. Some of those children would have to travel to England as well. So, given the nature and complexities of all those things, it has to be left entirely to the surgical teams and the clinicians to make those difficult decisions in conjunction with talking to the parents so that they fully understand all the issues.

So, in that respect, yes, we will have an ambulance service that can support the transfer of children, and we will take whatever steps we need to support children in those circumstances. It is a relatively small number of circumstances vis-à-vis the elective model that is provided, but, nonetheless, it is critical to parents that we can guarantee them that support, and it will be guaranteed. We will get them to the place that is most appropriate to carry out that surgery as quickly as possible.

Basil McCrea (NI21, Lagan Valley)

Will the Minister explain why he is so defensive about the announcement? Who is going to call him "Traitor Poots", and why do you think that would happen?

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

I am not in the least defensive. I outlined that this was purely a health issue and that it should not be seen as anything else. My priority is children in Northern Ireland, including children with congenital cardiac problems. That has been my priority throughout, and it will be my priority when we arrive at the conclusion of this process with the qualified recommendations that will come from people of real expertise and knowledge who have provided care for children for many years.

George Robinson (DUP, East Londonderry)

I thank the Minister for his statement. As one who has suffered adult heart problems, I ask the Minister to outline how challenging it has been to get to this welcome point for children with heart problems.

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

The challenges were huge. A number of times, it appeared that we were at almost the end of the road when massive pressure was applied. We resisted that pressure. I recognise the support of Dr Reilly throughout the process. He was never anything other than helpful. It will, and did, involve challenging. It involved pushing others, and I thank him for that. I greatly appreciate that others are prepared to come to the table and offer their support to us to ensure that we are able to provide a safe and sustainable service regarding congenital cardiac care for children in Northern Ireland.

Ian McCrea (DUP, Mid Ulster)

I commend the Minister for his statement and the families of the children who lobbied MLAs for the excellent work that they did to keep this matter to the fore. The Minister mentioned work with the Dublin hospital. How many operations take place in Dublin? Is there evidence that the quality and expertise are there?

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

Dublin has between 400 and 500 surgeries each year, which is a high number that enables them to have a full-time service. It submits its data to the Central Cardiac Audit Database (CCAD) to be audited and validated for quality, though I would not be suggesting that we use a service in Dublin if I did not believe that it was of the standard that we would get in Great Britain. However, clearly it is more convenient to use services in Dublin than in Great Britain. Therefore, where we have that quality validated, it would make sense for parents to be able to avail themselves of that service without having to fly to Scotland or England.

I recognise that it is less of an issue for parents in the south and east of the Province than for parents in the north and west. Travelling from Belfast to Dublin takes less than two hours, but if you have to add a journey from, for example, Ballycastle, Londonderry or Castlederg, it adds considerably to the journey. That is one reason why we want to ensure that we can provide support in Belfast for parents, and not just support around cardiology but surgical support.

We want to retain as much service as possible in Belfast. That is not guaranteed at this moment in time but neither is it lost. Had we made a decision at this point, it would have been a negative decision, but I am glad that we are in the position to fully test the opportunities that there will be to continue to provide such a service in Belfast.

Robin Newton (DUP, Belfast East)

I welcome the Minister's statement and, like others, congratulate him on it. Minister, you appointed Dr Mayer, consultant cardiac surgeon at Boston Children’s Hospital, to head up the external group. How do you address the accusations that the outcomes of his work are predetermined?

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

Dr Mayer comes with huge skills and experience. He trained at Yale University and was a professor of surgery at Harvard Medical School. That is the standard of person who we are bringing in. He leads on over 1,000 surgeries a year, so he has all the clinical expertise that anybody could ask for, but he also has a clear knowledge of the needs of families. When we met, he identified clearly and directly to me that parental support and parents having confidence in the facility that they have become used to using, and their ability to meet the needs of other members of the family who may be at home, are important issues. He was very clear that it is not just about what needs to be done on the clinical side but about the needs of families. Although I cannot guarantee what the outcome will be, I have confidence that he will give due consideration to all those issues and ensure that the families' views, as well as those of the clinicians, are heard.

Jim Allister (Traditional Unionist Voice, North Antrim)

I think that the Minister is well aware of the genuine concern that, in the interim period, there should not be any further weakening of the Belfast service. Given that Professor Wood is retiring, and given the inference from the Minister's answer to Mr Wells that recruitment may wait out the stability that will come from the review, how does he guarantee to all and sundry that, in the interim, there will be surgery and the interventions that people are looking for and need in Belfast? How can that be guaranteed?

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

The surgical support needs to come from Dublin in this instance. We have the theatre capacity, the anaesthetists, the nursing team and the cardiologists. Where we lack capacity is in the actual surgeons. That is a matter for the clinical teams to work out as they work together. I think that it is important that we recognise that they have expressed a willingness to support our service, that the final issues will be tied down over the next number of days and that surgery will continue in Belfast in a safe and sustainable way whilst we arrive at a final solution to the issue. So, again, we should view positively any support that we are being given here. I think that it is excellent news that surgeons in Dublin are prepared to support the Belfast service whilst the review is being carried out.

Steven Agnew (Green, North Down)

I welcome today's statement and congratulate the Children's Heartbeat Trust and the parents on their campaign and on keeping this high on our agenda. The Minister stated quite clearly that parents should not be placed in the position of having to travel overseas with their child, but, later on, he acknowledged that, in some cases, parents will be required to travel to England for their children's surgery. What priority is being given to reducing or, indeed, eradicating the need to transfer children to England for services?

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

I think that Mr Agnew needs to recognise the complexity. In 2010-11, 42 children travelled to England; in 2011-12, there were 36; and in 2012-13, there were 34. I would like to see the capacity in Dublin and Belfast being developed, as far as possible, for as many surgeries as possible. However, Members need to understand that the complexity of surgery on a little heart the size of an acorn is absolutely massive and that the skills required to repair those hearts are very extensive, so we need people who do that at a particular level day and daily. In some instances, only surgeons in England will be able to provide that service, and it is really good that we have them to provide that service for us. We should not be disparaging of that in any way, shape or form, because they are providing the best possible service to families. I have to say that the safety that is being delivered is excellent, and the numbers of children who are coming through those complex surgical procedures is really remarkable. I cannot praise highly enough all those who are engaged in that kind of work, whether they are based in Belfast, Dublin or, indeed, mainland Britain.

Paul Givan (DUP, Lagan Valley)

I commend the Minister on his determination to resist the pressure placed on him by officialdom by withholding a rushed decision. It may not have been the right one. Will he assure us that officials in his Department and those supporting Minister Reilly will be working to get the solution that we all want in Northern Ireland and the best care for patients?

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

I am confident that that will be the case, and I am confident that officials recognise that we will not be pushed around on this issue. It is one thing parents telling you that they would like something to happen. The cardiologists have always been confident that a service could be provided in Belfast. I met Professor Wood and Mr Austin, who were the surgeons, and they were confident that it could be provided in Belfast. I was getting the right messages from not just parents but the clinical teams that it is achievable. It might be difficult to achieve — that is a different matter — but it is achievable. Therefore, we must do our best to ensure that that is the case and we move heaven and earth to achieve something for our children if at all possible. Everything that we can do to make it happen will be done. That does not guarantee that it will happen, but at least people will have the confidence that some administrator will not say, "We don't need that service any more; we can provide that elsewhere". Everything that can be done to maintain the service in Belfast will be done. If we come here in six or seven months' time and say that the service cannot be provided in Belfast, it will not be because people have not tried their very best to make sure that that is the case.

Matters of the Day

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

Mr Martin McGuinness has been given leave to make a statement on the death of Nelson Mandela, which fulfils the criteria set out in Standing Order 24. If other Members wish to be called, they should do so by continually rising in their places. All Members who wish to make a contribution will have up to three minutes to speak on the subject. Members will know that there will be no points of order and that no other subject will be discussed in the House until this item of business is dealt with. If that is clear, I call Mr Martin McGuinness.

Martin McGuinness (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. Just a short time ago, I rose to say a few words in thanksgiving and appreciation for the life of Father Alec Reid — a man who made an enormous contribution to the success of our peace process. Today, we speak of another individual, who was a world and iconic figure: Nelson Mandela. He was a freedom fighter, a peacemaker and a reconciler. I take this opportunity to express our deepest sympathy and condolences to the people of South Africa, his family, the Government of South Africa and the African National Congress (ANC).

This was a man who, when he left prison, was totally and absolutely devoid of bitterness and hatred. He understood his responsibilities to unite his people against the backdrop of the incredible change that occurred with the ending of apartheid in his country. He was also a man who understood the importance of world peace and wanted to make his own ongoing contribution to the resolution of conflict throughout the world, and that he did in the context of our peace process. I was very privileged to lead a Sinn Féin delegation to Arniston in the Western Cape. An all-party invitation had come from Nelson Mandela. It was the first time that all the parties had been assembled together. I think that all of us benefited from the conversations that took place there, particularly the conversations with him and some of his key negotiators.

He followed that up with continuing support. We had regular visits here from people of the calibre of Cyril Ramaphosa, Valli Moosa and Mac Maharaj. Those people played instrumental and key roles in the evolution of the new South Africa. Cyril had come several times and played a very important role with Father Alec Reid, Reverend Harold Good and former Finnish president Martti Ahtisaari in dealing — to the satisfaction, I think, of the overwhelming majority of people — with the whole issue of how the IRA would put arms beyond use.

This was a man who was an incredible supporter of our peace process, and I will be very honoured to represent our Executive and this Assembly at tomorrow's memorial in South Africa, as is my intention.

Gregory Campbell (DUP, East Londonderry)

The people and the nation of South Africa are in mourning as a result of the passing of their first democratically elected president, Nelson Mandela. I had the pleasure of meeting Nelson Mandela on several occasions, and, on a personal level, he was exceptionally friendly, charismatic and helpful as a facilitator, as were all of those whom he put at our disposal. There are some people in Northern Ireland who attempt to equate the issues in South Africa of the past with Northern Ireland of the past. Of course, there has been no comparison whatsoever. People in Northern Ireland had a vote. The black population in South Africa had no vote. When Nelson Mandela presented himself to the electorate following the new constitution, he received the mandate of over 60% of the population, so he could argue that he did have a mandate from the majority of his population. No one in Northern Ireland who was advocating violence could argue or advocate that that was the case.

There is a danger of trying to gild the lily on Nelson Mandela's passing. We should pay tribute to the man, who, undoubtedly, was an international statesman who rose above the divisions of his homeland. However, in an earlier life, Nelson Mandela, unfortunately, despite the difficulties that there were — and there were horrendously difficult problems in his nation — did engage in acts of terror. When a man moves from terror to peace and from violence to democracy, we should recognise that. We should acknowledge that. The one thing that we should not do is to eulogise his former activities. We have no intention of doing so today, but we acknowledge the man, his presence, his charisma and his attitude to Northern Ireland, where he was prepared to offer the hand of friendship, help and assistance — and he did. We acknowledge his latter-day endeavours in that regard.

Alasdair McDonnell (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast South)

From my perspective, Nelson Mandela was one of the world's greatest peacemakers, and he will always be remembered for his great example and enduring spirit of forgiveness and hope. His death has caused global sadness, and there is no doubt that the world has lost a great champion for the rights of the oppressed and an advocate for those without a voice. He did both of those tasks with splendour. He was also a man who influenced change far beyond the confines that others attempted to impose on him.

To my mind, Nelson Mandela was one of the greatest men of the 20th century, and, despite the abuse that he and those associated with him had suffered, he turned the other cheek and continuously sought peace and a peaceful and prosperous future for South Africa when apartheid was ended. As president, he set an example to the world through his tolerance and his efforts to reach out to opponents and former enemies. His powerful gestures around rugby, cricket and football were examples to us all of how to build reconciliation and create trust. After his presidency, well into his 90s, he maintained a dignity, a compassion and a tolerance that we could all learn from.

Nelson Mandela will long be remembered as one of the world's greatest statesmen and he fully deserves that honour. His enduring legacy will be one of hope, even in the most difficult of circumstances, and we should all unite around that sentiment.

There is so much that I could say in wider tribute to one of the world's greatest statesmen. He did so much for South Africa, for us in Northern Ireland and for the wider world. Suffice it to say that, on behalf of my colleagues and the wider SDLP, I wish to extend heartfelt sympathy and condolences to his family and all the people of South Africa.

Danny Kinahan (UUP, South Antrim)

It is an honour to be able to speak in memory of Nelson Mandela. When I heard of his death last week, I thought that the very minimum the Assembly would do was a joint tribute from the First Minister and deputy First Minister.

If you are as young as me, you will remember the Cold War, South Africa and the apartheid that is relevant today and, of course, the Troubles. Few stand out as an icon in the way that Nelson Mandela has.

I have always had a deep interest in Africa: its history, its people and its beauty. However, sadly, I have never had the chance to go to South Africa.

I would like to borrow from 'The Spectator':

"There are three categories of great men: the great and the good, such as ... Churchill and ... Lincoln; the great and the bad, such as Stalin and Hitler; and a third category ... the stuff of folklore. Men in this category are born with a ... grace that transcends the politics of their age."

One of those greats is Nelson Mandela. He was a man with such intelligence and generosity, and with no sign of malice or spite, that he was able to put behind him 27 years of imprisonment and a past in which his people lived in utter poverty with no vote and, in later years, under a tyrannical oppressor.

I do not condone terrorism in any form. Nelson Mandela was a man who was able to resolve the differences between whites and blacks, to pacify armed forces and police and resolve his party's conflicts and other tribal disputes. Importantly, he was a man who was able to forgive, and he was able to lead in a period of national reconciliation, which should be an example to us all. Let us all consider how much better we could conduct ourselves, and let there be national conciliation with no rewriting of history but with generosity and forgiveness. Let us work at the consensus that we envisaged.

I hope that the First Minister and the deputy First Minister, in attending the funeral together, will show the world that they intend to follow his example. Nelson Mandela, thank you.

David Ford (Alliance, South Antrim)

On behalf of my party colleagues, I send our sympathy to the people of South Africa and, most particularly, to the family and friends of the man they called Madiba.

There is absolutely no doubt that Nelson Mandela stood far beyond most of us who attain political office. He was not just a South African statesmen, he was a world statesmen and one of the defining figures of the 20th century. His roots were those of an ordinary South African. Born in a small hut, he used his abilities to train as a lawyer, and he was able to carry through a vision for a different kind of South Africa. Indeed, when he stood trial for treason, his speech from the dock, whatever one might think of the circumstances in which he was there, was one of the most powerful statements of the rights of man that has been heard in any quarter in any part of the world in the past half century. It was a fantastic statement of the right, not just of his people but of all people, to live in peace.

After 27 years of incarceration, which included the dreadful conditions of Robben Island, Nelson Mandela was able to come out as a man whose every subsequent word and action was a commitment to peace, reconciliation and the foundation of the rainbow nation. It is doubtful whether South African would have gone through that transition as well as it has without his leadership.

The sporting analogy has been referred to already, and, for some of us, one of the iconic images was the rather diminutive figure of the president hugging the large Afrikaners, all wearing Springbok shirts after they won the rugby World Cup. If ever there was a great display of reconciliation and practicality between those who had been the oppressor and the leader of the oppressed, that was it.

I will read one quote from him that I picked up recently:

"No one is born hating another person because of the color of his skin, or his background, or his religion. People must learn to hate, and if they can learn to hate, they can be taught to love, for love comes more naturally to the human heart than its opposite."

Perhaps that is a lesson for this society today given the talks that are going on at the moment.

John McCallister (UUP, South Down)

At the outset, on behalf of my party and party colleague, I want to express our sympathies and say that our thoughts are with the family, friends and, indeed, all who knew Nelson Mandela personally. All of us have grown up watching, effectively, someone who has become an iconic figure and the work that he has been involved in. As a fairly young man, I remember watching, on a Sunday afternoon on 11 February 1990, the images of Nelson Mandela walking free from prison, and I was almost waiting expectantly to see what he even looked like as we had only been fit to view an image from the 1960s or a photo from some 27 years earlier.

Nelson Mandela said:

"As I walked out the door toward the gate that would lead to my freedom, I knew if I didn't leave my bitterness and hatred behind, I'd still be in prison."

The key things when looking at Nelson Mandela's life are that he did not deny all his past and what he was involved in, and he did not hold any bitterness or rancour against anyone because of what he suffered and endured during the 27 years in prison. While on holiday in South Africa a number of years ago, I had the privilege of visiting Robben Island, and it is a huge example to us all that he could spend so long in a very small cell doing very hard labour for such a lengthy period of time yet leave all the bitterness and rancour behind when he left those conditions.

The legacy that Mr Mandela has left us is particularly applicable here in Northern Ireland, and the challenge for all of us in the Chamber is this: do we genuinely want to leave the bitterness and hatred behind or are we content to live in the past and condemn the people of Northern Ireland to do the same?

Jim Allister (Traditional Unionist Voice, North Antrim)

Every death is sad, and grieving families are entitled to expect our condolences. Nelson Mandela was blessed with a very long life that was drawn to a close by natural causes, something that cannot be said about the many victims of his ANC or about the many victims of the IRA that his ANC so avidly supported. That is a perspective and reality that needs to be spoken and remembered, particularly given the uncritical tsunami of hysteria that there has been following the death of Nelson Mandela.

David McNarry (UKIP, Strangford)

UKIP's leader Nigel Farage said:

"Mandela's ability to forgive those who did him harm and fight for freedom will ensure he remains in our hearts and with future generations."

In adding to that, I would say that Nelson Mandela belongs to South Africa. He is their son whom they mourn with a deep sense of loss mixed with pride in the man who gave them and that country a place in democratic society. Apartheid was and is the worst form of racial and cultural discrimination. Playing any role in its outworkings demonstrated the appalling contours of man's inhumanity to man. Mandela gave the world the best of reasons to outlaw apartheid and gave South Africa a way of practising that. Freedom in the form of dignity, free speech and free access to celebrate a tradition and a culture has a place in South Africa and does so here. However, toleration and respect has not in all cases or all places, including this one, been secured. Mandela's role as a freedom fighter was unique to him and South Africa. There are not and there cannot be comparisons to be made elsewhere, especially in this place.

To Mandela, I say this on behalf of UKIP: may he rest in peace. To Martin McGuinness, who has since left the Chamber, I say this: you do not represent me. Mr Speaker, I do not want him representing me at Nelson Mandela's funeral.

Megan Fearon (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. It is a great honour to be able to pay tribute to one of the most remarkable and inspiring leaders of our time. I want to bring a different perspective to the tributes that have been paid today, given that I am the only person here who was not born when Mandela was finally released from prison.

I have no memories of the "Free Mandela" movement or the agitation around apartheid. For as long as I have been alive, South Africa has been a democratic, multicultural country built on the work of the ANC and leaders such as Nelson Mandela. As a young republican, I am very proud of our party's affinity with the ANC and Mandela. ANC members are regular visitors to the Sinn Féin ard fheis. Although others in the Chamber were reluctant to stand shoulder to shoulder with the South African people and their struggle, we have always been proud of our unity in struggle.

Throughout my education and from the media, I have been presented with the image of Mandela as a peacemaker and a statesman. The struggle that he carried is too often overlooked. What struck me most about Mandela was his never-ending devotion to what is right and his love of his country and its people. There are many lessons for our young people to take from his extraordinary life. He was committed to changing South Africa for the better, and for all people, especially women. He set about creating a constitution that gave women in South Africa one of the most comprehensive sets of rights in the world, designed to protect them from discrimination and violence. His desire to advance women's liberation has inspired, and always will inspire, young women around the world as we continue to fight for equality.

We should take a moment to remember his family. The pain that he endured was not felt by him alone. His family shared the burden. It is important that all of us remember that the work of political activists is only ever possible with family support.

Rightly or wrongly, society has elevated Mandela to a demigod, somehow different from the rest of us. We must remember that he was only human. He took extraordinary action in extraordinary times. He truly lived by his own words:

"There is no passion to be found playing small — in settling for a life that is less than the one you are capable of living."

There is no doubt that we have lost a truly incredible leader. The best way in which we can honour his life and his example is by emulating the passion that he had for human rights, education and equality. One thing is for sure: there are not nearly enough people in our world like Nelson Mandela.

Colum Eastwood (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

I am glad to have the opportunity to add my words of condolence to the family of Nelson Mandela and the people of South Africa, who saw him as the nation's father. Nelson Mandela was an inspiration to many people across the world. The great work that people in this country did has to be remembered, whether it was that of political leaders such as John Hume or that of anti-apartheid campaigners such the Dunnes Stores strikers. The impact that those people, and people across the world, had in bringing international pressure to bear on the South African regime was very important indeed.

Nelson Mandela led his country to democracy. He did so with real humility and dignity. He was able to banish bitterness from a very volatile situation and made "forgiveness" the key word in developing the rainbow nation. His long walk to freedom has finally come to an end, but, for many others, the inspiration and legacy that he leaves in the fight for democratic struggle, justice and peace will be felt for many years to come.

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

Mr Paul Givan has been given leave to make a statement on the findings of the Smithwick report, which fulfils the criteria set out in Standing Order 24. Once again, I remind Members that, if they want to be called, they should continually rise in their place. Members will have up to three minutes to speak on the subject. If that is clear, we shall proceed.

Paul Givan (DUP, Lagan Valley)

The inquiry that Justice Peter Smithwick held was into the ambush of two RUC officers by the Provisional IRA on 20 March 1989 after they had attended a meeting in Dundalk garda station. Of the two officers, Chief Superintendent Harry Breen had been highly decorated for his service to the RUC and was highly respected by his colleagues. Superintendent Bob Buchanan served in Lisburn, in my constituency, as a chief inspector. He, too, was highly respected in his community. A devout Christian, he was also a lay preacher in his church.

After an exhaustive process, Justice Peter Smithwick has found there to have been collusion between members of an Garda Síochána and members of the Provisional IRA in the murder of those two officers. His report found a general culture that existed and still exists among the gardaí where loyalty to the force is more highly regarded than honesty. That should worry all of us. In his dismissal of that, Garda Commissioner, Mr Callinan, does not deal appropriately with the issue. The report has clear challenges for the leadership of an Garda Síochána about how it failed to handle concerns about rogue officers and the culture of the organisation, which, Judge Smithwick says, prevails to this day. That culture was manifested at the tribunal by the unprecedented attack on evidence provided by the PSNI through Assistant Chief Constable Drew Harris, when the legal representatives of the commissioner said that it was "nonsense on stilts" and that he had paraded his rank before the tribunal. The judge did not think so, the Chief Constable does not think so and the Garda Commissioner now needs to do more than just explain this outburst by his legal representatives.

The Irish Government, in their attempts to rush proceedings through arbitrary deadlines, did not help, and Judge Smithwick was rightly resilient in resisting that pressure. Any process needs to deal further with the role of the Irish Government in other cases, not just that of Lord Justice and Lady Gibson but that of the Hanna family, where there are strong suspicions of collusion. They also need to look at the role that the Irish Government played under Jack Lynch in the infancy of the Provisional IRA movement in arming, assisting and facilitating it; the Irish Government's refusal in over 90% of cases to extradite those whom the UK Government sought for terrorist activities; and their failure to protect the border, leaving the IRA able to carry out its attacks and providing it with a safe haven.

Let us remember that the people who carried this out were those in the IRA. They were people who, when one officer held up a white handkerchief pleading surrender, shot and brutally murdered him.

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

The Member's time is almost gone.

Paul Givan (DUP, Lagan Valley)

Those were the actions not of an army doing its duty but of terrorists and those in that organisation that Gerry Adams should be ashamed of.

Mitchel McLaughlin (Sinn Féin, South Antrim)

Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. After the Weston Park talks in 2001, Canadian Judge Peter Cory was asked to examine the case for public inquiries into the killing of Pat Finucane, Robert Hamill, Rosemary Nelson, Billy Wright, Judge Gibson and his wife, RUC Chief Superintendent Harry Breen and RUC Superintendent Robert Buchanan. Cory worked diligently and, in 2003, handed his reports over to the two Governments. He concluded that there was no basis for proceeding with an inquiry into the deaths of Judge Gibson and his wife. I think that some of the underlying reasons for that have already been placed in the public domain. Sinn Féin supported the establishment of the inquiries as he recommended, including Smithwick, and we did so on the basis that families had the right to full disclosure of all relevant information.

Judge Smithwick concluded that, although the tribunal has not uncovered direct evidence of collusion, on the balance of probability some form of collusion occurred. We await the formal and considered response of the police services on both sides of the border, which, I think, is proper. That will be due process taking its course. People should make up their mind on the conclusions by reading the full report: I suspect that some of the commentary that we have heard already comes from people who have not had the benefit of reading the report in detail. Indeed, it takes some time to do so, because it is quite a bulky report. However, it is already clear that what Judge Smithwick describes as collusion is very different in form and scale from the collusion that occurred in the North. During 30 years of protracted and violent conflict on our streets, the British state was directly responsible for structured, institutionalised and coordinated collusion that led to the deaths of hundreds of citizens, including those killed in the Dublin, Monaghan and Dundalk bombs and by the murderous activities of the notorious Glenanne gang, which killed over 100 people in the so-called murder triangle, not to mention the role of the British Army murder squad, the MRF. To this day, the British Government refuse to hand over the vital information on these events.

It is also important to note that, while the Irish Government have fulfilled their commitment under Weston Park — the parties in the Chamber were involved there, and I was part of my party's delegation — the British Government are in clear breach of their commitments and have refused to establish an inquiry into the murder of human rights lawyer Pat Finucane. The Irish Government, with support from the Assembly, should continue to pressurise the British Government to honour their Weston Park commitments and set up the promised public inquiry into the murder of Pat Finucane.

Finally, Sinn Féin believes that there needs to be an effective truth recovery process for dealing with all legacy issues, which cause such difficulties in the party dynamics in this place. We have repeatedly called on the British and Irish Governments —

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

The Member's time is almost gone.

Mitchel McLaughlin (Sinn Féin, South Antrim)

— to invite a reputable and independent international body to establish an independent international truth commission. We repeat that call today.

Danny Kennedy (UUP, Newry and Armagh)

I welcome the opportunity to comment on this matter of the day. I welcome the publication of the Smithwick report, and I congratulate Judge Smithwick on his robust independence during a very lengthy inquiry process. I am also mindful of the Breen family and the Buchanan family. They have shown great dignity throughout what must have been a very difficult period and in the 24 years since the murder of their loved ones. I pay tribute to their dignity. I also pay tribute to the professionalism of their legal representation.

Unfortunately, it is no surprise that Sinn Féin has sought to cast cold water on the importance of the report, but it is still unbelievably remarkable how deliberately insensitive Sinn Féin has been, no one more so than Gerry Adams. Despite the lows that he has reached in his career, he has somehow managed to be even more insensitive, even in a week when so many have discussed the spirit of generosity displayed by Nelson Mandela. We have reflected on the clearly painful process that South Africa embarked on, but at least there was a willingness to tell the truth there. When we read the Smithwick report, we see that, even when amnesties were secured by the IRA, its members were absolutely incapable of telling the truth. Judge Smithwick is rightly scathing of their engagement. We know about Mr Adams's credibility in respect of honesty. We also know that, at the Saville tribunal, the deputy First Minister made it clear that there were questions to which he would provide no answer.

This report has firmly established Garda collusion on a level yet to be quantified. We simply do not know whether we are dealing with one mole or more. One set of murders has been investigated, and collusion has been established. Many more murders — some 160 — in that area were of a cross-border nature, including those of countless members of the security forces and private citizens like those who were caught up and cruelly murdered in Kingsmills and other incidents. We need to know more about that. The immediate apology from the Republic is welcome, but it should be only a first step in seeking to establish how deep the collusion ran and how high up the chain of command it ran. Otherwise, this is not enough.

Dolores Kelly (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Upper Bann)

Less than a week after the publication of a 1,600-plus page report, I do not think that we will do justice to its findings and conclusions in such a short time. However, as Mr Kennedy stated, we have to be very mindful of the families and, in particular, their search for truth. Many families right across the North, as we know, will not see justice, but there is a prevailing demand for truth recovery from victims' organisations and individuals who were victimised over the years.

We also have to be very mindful of those who stood against terrorists, North and South. Both police services lost colleagues at the hands of those who would seek to murder and maim their fellow Irishmen and Irishwomen. The allegations of collusion are a great slur on those organisations. We heard a very quick response from the Southern Government to the report, and I note that they will study it in detail. There are, however, three recommendations that have a particular resonance for the police and the gardaí in relation to cooperation and the sharing of intelligence. I know that both police chiefs and Justice Ministers will meet to discuss the relevance of those recommendations at an early date over the coming weeks.

Mitchel McLaughlin is correct in saying that there is an outstanding need for an inquiry into the death of Pat Finucane. That is a promise broken by the British Government. No doubt, many international commentators will consider how the British have failed to live up to their commitments.

I am very mindful that the Haass-O'Sullivan talks will intensify over the coming days and of the needs of victims. One of the final recommendations of the report was that victims' needs must be front and centre. If there is to be justice in any policing system, that has to be the case. I urge those involved in the talks to bear that in mind. This is the best opportunity that we will have to establish a form of truth recovery.

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

The Member's time is almost gone.

Dolores Kelly (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Upper Bann)

However, as Mr Kennedy and others have stated, that will require all to tell the truth, and it is unfortunate — if that be the right word — that the IRA frustrated the Smithwick tribunal and did not make themselves available for cross-examination. Let us hope that, if it makes a commitment in relation to the Haass-O'Sullivan talks, we will see a different set of principles.

David Ford (Alliance, South Antrim)

First, I repeat my sympathies to the Breen and Buchanan families. There is absolutely no doubt that Chief Superintendent Breen and Superintendent Buchanan were dedicated police officers doing their duty in the fight against crime and terrorism, and they suffered for the work that they were doing. There is no doubt that their families suffered grievously because of those dreadful murders, and they continue to suffer. The way in which they have shown forbearance and dignity, even in their response to the report, is an example to us all.

On behalf of my party, I welcome the very speedy response made by the Taoiseach, the Tánaiste and the Minister for Justice and Equality, in particular the absolute and unqualified apology for any failings of the Irish state or its agencies. That stands in contrast to what can be the inclination when difficulties emerge in all kinds of ways.

Mrs Kelly has already referred to it, so, although it is not quite my role to speak as Minister on a matter of the day, I can confirm that I had several informal discussions on this issue with Alan Shatter last week. He and I will meet formally with the Garda Commissioner and the Chief Constable of the PSNI next week to consider how the issue can be taken further forward. It is absolutely clear that we need to address the findings of the Smithwick tribunal. We need to ensure that there is the best possible cooperation and joined-up approach to the fight against terrorism.

The public position of the Irish Government stands in very significant contrast to what were outrageous comments by the Sinn Féin TDs from Louth and Donegal, Gerry Adams and Pádraig Mac Lochlainn. The suggestion that the two officers doing their duty were somehow responsible for their own death is a disgusting slur on the honourable trade that they had and the way in which they sought to protect the community. It is important that we address the issue highlighted by Mr Givan of a culture in organisations of people seeking to stick up for their colleagues, rather than necessarily addressing the truth. I suggest that that culture is not unique to an Garda Síochána, but it is an issue that must be addressed by the two Departments and the two police services if we are to maximise cooperation and build on the good position that we are in now. However, we should remember that we have to do that because of the way that Judge Smithwick, in an excellent report, has highlighted the problems of the 1980s and the loss that this society suffered with the murder of the two officers.

Basil McCrea (NI21, Lagan Valley)

On behalf of NI21, I offer condolences to the families of Breen and Buchanan. I would also like to place on record our thanks for the service that they gave our community.

Judge Smithwick has spent eight long years trying to unravel what went on, and the question in front of all of us is, "Did it actually make any difference?". Have we got to the whole truth? Have the families got justice? Is this something that will make our place a better place? I have to say that I am not sure that the Smithwick report will do any more than give us a call for more inquiries. Yet, the truth is that we cannot do inquiries of this level for every victim, and, even if we did, we would not get the truth. The very point that has been made by the previous Member about the disgraceful attitude of those who know about things but will not speak out shows that we will not get answers when we go down this route. From studying, at some length, the Smithwick report, it is apparent to me that, if we insist on going back through the past and having rancorous debates and if we ignore the lesson that came from the earlier debate on Nelson Mandela, Northern Ireland will have no future. We will be stuck in the past.

I will conclude by saying a committed "Thank you" to the servants of the state who did their best but with a plea to the people of Northern Ireland to put the past behind them, to accept that bad things were done and to move forward and build a future that we can all be proud of.

Jim Allister (Traditional Unionist Voice, North Antrim)

The Smithwick report was a forthright exposé of the chilling fact that a mole in the gardaí who was in cooperation with the murderous IRA led to the killing of the two most senior officers to lose their life in Northern Ireland. That is as chilling as it is shocking, but it raises the question of what other episodes of collusion there were. That arises in the context of the Republic of Ireland having spawned and armed the Provisional IRA, of their repeated brazen thwarting of extradition over the years and of the porous border that they maintained to the facilitation of the IRA campaign. So, quite apart from these specific incidents, there is much yet to be apologised for by the Republic of Ireland.

The second very significant part of Smithwick was its exposé of the political expediency that overshadowed a number of these matters. The finding that, because of political expediency, there was denial, sadly both North and South, about the existence of a mole was itself a timely finding, and, again, it raises the question "How many times over the years did that political expediency play its hand in conning and deceiving as to what was going on?". I must say that I was most disappointed by our Justice Minister's mealy-mouthed response last Friday when he tried to downplay the findings of collusion with a line the essence of which was "Well, you know, there are, as it were, bad apples in every large organisation". Was that another example of political expediency kicking in to avoid facing up to and to help deny the realities that were found?

Then, of course, we had the disgusting comments from the disgusting Mr Adams, suggesting that these men had only themselves to blame and, indeed, the IRA had a duty to murder them. That was shameful.

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

The Member's time is almost gone.

Jim Allister (Traditional Unionist Voice, North Antrim)

I will finish with this: is this the only opportunity that the House will have to debate this important matter? Surely, we should find time for a proper debate on these issues.

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

Time is gone.

David McNarry (UKIP, Strangford)

It is not difficult to feel someone else's hurt and pain, and, today, the House must speak out and let our feelings on this issue be known. The Breen and Buchanan families have a verified, beyond doubt report on the truth, and it is their truth. It says that, in all probability, the cause of their loved ones' savage murder by Provo assassins was aided by the shameful collusion of members of Garda Síochána. Some people in here would not know the truth if it jumped up and smacked them in the face. Well, Smithwick's truths have jumped up and hit where the truth is about what was supported then in the killing fields between Northern Ireland and the Republic. Yet, as has been alluded to, Sinn Féin still wriggles with lamentable crassness away from acknowledging the truth, which was that the Provos, their political wing and members of Garda Síochána were, at a time, one and the same thing.

Mr Breen and Mr Buchanan were men dedicated to protecting and saving lives. It was their killers who chose the opposite way, because they were dedicated to taking lives. So, what we need to know now, without equivocation, is how commonplace collusion was between the gardaí and the Provos. It is asking too much to expect victims to believe that the Smithwick findings began and ended with one or two so-called rogue guards. I call on the Taoiseach to publicly answer this question: did gardaí collusion begin and end with the killing of Mr Breen and Mr Buchanan? If not, what was the full extent of guards working with Provo terrorists? Fittingly, today, following what we have seen this past couple of weeks, is it the case that, in all probability, collusion extends today to dissident Provos?

Ross Hussey (UUP, West Tyrone)

I begin by paying tribute to all those in the Royal Ulster Constabulary and an Garda Síochána who gave their life in the service of their country. I had the honour of serving with Superintendent Bob Buchanan. A nicer man you could not have met. He presented me with my RUC service medal, which was a very proud moment for me. Clearly, the man was a strong Christian, and he had strong Christian ethics. All reports indicate that Chief Superintendent Breen was a true gentleman. I was not going to speak on the issue, until Mr McLaughlin spoke. At no point did he apologise for the slur that was put on those two brave men by Mr Adams, who was never in the IRA. Mr Adams made comments that were beneath contempt, and Sinn Féin should apologise for them. He said that the IRA was right to murder those police officers.

Everybody knew that the police officers who travelled between the North and South were not allowed to carry their firearms, so they were murdered in cold blood. It was a shoot-to-kill policy by the IRA. They ambushed two senior police officers and murdered them in cold blood. No Sinn Féin Member can stand up and say anything different. On reading the report, one learns the disgusting way in which they killed Chief Superintendent Breen. I will not reopen the wounds of that family, but, if I were you sitting in the Benches over there, I would go home tonight and hang my head in shame. Not one inch of Ireland was worth what happened to those two very brave men.

There was collusion between an Garda Síochána and the IRA, and there was an act of cold-blooded murder in south Armagh. That is what happened. That is the horrible truth, and, for that, Sinn Féin should apologise. That party calls on everybody and their granny to apologise for what happened in Ireland from 1690 to God knows when. This happened on your watch. Your leader is a disgrace. Your president should resign. You should get rid of him as soon as possible. The man is a disgrace. I praise Chief Superintendent Breen and Superintendent Bob Buchanan, men who were proud to wear the uniform of the Royal Ulster Constabulary and who served this community.

Judge Smithwick has caught you out, and I thank him for his work.

Jonathan Craig (DUP, Lagan Valley)

It is with great sadness that we talk about the Smithwick tribunal today at all. We need to bear in mind the two families in question: the family of Chief Superintendent Harry Breen and that of Superintendent Bob Buchanan. One thing that struck me, which was referred to earlier and about which I am not at all surprised, is that not only could Sinn Féin not apologise for what Gerry Adams said about the two families, its members could not even bring themselves to mention their names today. Maybe the fact that they cannot even mention the families connected with the judgement says something about their conscience on the matter.

I want to read from the Breen family statement, in which Judge Smithwick's report is described as:

"a truly remarkable exposé and indictment of wrongdoing and collusion with terrorists ... within An Garda Síochána".

That was the clear outcome of the report and what it clearly stated. Others in the House need to take that on board. It goes to the heart of the issue in Garda Síochána itself, which is how its members think, the mentality of the force: you do not say anything bad about it or your colleagues, and you do not look for wrongdoing in that force. I think that the exact opposite is true of the PSNI in Northern Ireland. I do not want to hear anyone compare the RUC, the PSNI or any force in Northern Ireland with the Garda Síochána. Some people came pretty close to doing that in the House today, which is disgraceful.

I read the report with great interest and noted what the lawyers and barristers acting on behalf of the Garda Síochána said about ACC Drew Harris's evidence. As stated earlier, they said that it was nonsense and went on to say:

"It is nonsense upon stilts".

They must have been pretty strong stilts because it proved to be absolutely true. The commissioner of the Garda Síochána owes the Chief Constable and the PSNI an apology for what his legal representatives said. I repeat my call for him to apologise in person to the Chief Constable.

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

Mr Nelson McCausland has been given leave to make a statement on the gun attacks on the PSNI which fulfils the criteria set out in Standing Order 24.

Nelson McCausland (DUP, Belfast North)

On Thursday night, a republican gunman in Ardoyne opened fire on police officers who were driving up Crumlin Road past the Holy Cross Roman Catholic Church. The terrorists were able to construct a firing platform in Ardoyne, and ten shots were fired from a Kalashnikov rifle. The vehicles were hit, but, thankfully, none of the police officers was killed or injured. Nevertheless, that was attempted murder and a reckless attack that could also have endangered the life of members of the public.

The following night, several shots were fired at police officers on the Suffolk Road in west Belfast. Again, that was an attempt to murder police officers, but, thankfully, no one was killed or injured.

The murder or attempted murder of police officers is always wrong. It was wrong in the past, when the Provisional IRA murdered police officers in the RUC, and it is wrong today when the attacks are carried out by any of the smaller republican terrorist organisations.

There was also a grotesque irony about the Crumlin Road attack in that it was carried out outside the grounds of Holy Cross. Dissident republicans object to the behaviour of others outside a Roman Catholic church but seem to have no qualms about perpetrating murder outside a Roman Catholic church. Indeed, of course, in the past, the Provisional IRA murdered people who were going to worship in a Roman Catholic church. However, it is a thoroughly perverse sort of mind that can protest about music and, at the same time, perpetrate and perpetuate murder.

There has been an upsurge in republican terrorist activity. Recently, the Assembly noted the car bomb attack in the centre of Belfast. The vehicle used in that terrorist operation was hijacked in Ardoyne. We can speculate about the reasons for the increased level of terrorist activity and there may even be something of an element of competition between the various dissident terrorist groups. However, the one thing that is absolutely sure and certain is that those who plan or carry out such acts of terrorism must be identified, brought before the courts and put behind bars where they thoroughly deserve to be.

Gerry Kelly (Sinn Féin, Belfast North)

Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. I condemn the attacks that the Member has just enumerated. I am from North Belfast and I represent North Belfast, and the attack on the Crumlin Road, outside Holy Cross chapel, was particularly dangerous. We could be standing here today talking about the deaths of police officers, but thankfully we are not.

The people involved in these attacks have minimal support, if any, for doing what they did. They are completely rejected by the people of Ardoyne and, indeed, the people of Lenadoon and Suffolk and by the whole community across the board. It should be said that, in the aftermath of the Crumlin Road attack, not only could we have been dealing with the deaths of police officers but it was done in the proximity of an interface. Clearly, although the target was police officers, there was also a secondary attempt to raise tensions and bring loyalist paramilitaries into the fray. I have listened to some unionists and loyalists who have spoken on the matter and have said that they will resist that entirely.

The issue here is to make sure that they cannot bring us back to the past. Everybody needs to be involved in making sure that that does not occur. Again, let me condemn these attacks and assure Members that the people who vote for us all in the House are absolutely and entirely against such attacks.

Alban Maginness (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast North)

I join my Assembly colleagues in condemning these cowardly and reckless attacks in Belfast on the PSNI. I endorse what Mr Kelly has said; these attacks were reckless also because they could have involved the injury or death of civilians who, perhaps, would have been going about their lawful business in both areas. However, they were also provocative attacks, which were designed deliberately to raise tensions in the city of Belfast. We have tensions in this city and we do not want to excite further tensions. We want to lower tensions and we want to bring about peace in this city.

It should also be said that these attacks arise against a background in which our politics are not particularly good. We need to improve our politics and make them better so that those who may support these groups see that, in fact, there is an alternative way and that violence cannot achieve anything in this society. That has been proven in the past. If we want to do something positive, we make our politics positive. We have already referred to the legacy of Nelson Mandela. What Mandela did, above all, was show a spirit of generosity and a spirit of forgiveness to those who opposed him and his people. We should learn from that and show generosity and a spirit of forgiveness to one another. If we develop that spirit of generosity and forgiveness, we can transform the atmosphere and, I believe, reduce these deadly attacks. I hope that we can improve the situation here and that, with the assistance of the whole House in united condemnation, we can send a very firm and powerful message to those who perpetrated the attacks in Belfast.

Ross Hussey (UUP, West Tyrone)

Only by the will of God, I suppose, we are not standing here today to talk about the death of a police officer. In 1977, I joined the Royal Ulster Constabulary and had to wear a flak jacket, carry a sidearm and travel in an armoured vehicle. Where are we today? Police officers have to wear flak jackets and travel in armoured vehicles. That is the sad reality of where we are.

Those people who used high-velocity firearms are not heroes. They are cowards. I have said this before and I say it again: they are cowards, because they fire shots from a brave distance away in an attempt to murder police officers or any other individual who happens to be in the area and in their line of fire. Where do they get those firearms from? We understand that they are AK-47-type guns. They are not Kalashnikovs, but they are that type of gun and have probably been obtained from eastern Europe. From where do they get those weapons, and how do they get them into Northern Ireland? They are bringing them into Northern Ireland for no other reason than to murder and cause mayhem.

If they murder a police officer, what will they gain by that? The public will be horrified, but what will be gained? We need people to stand up and say, "No, we do not want to return to the days when police officers had to wear flak jackets and travel in armoured vehicles". People must give evidence to the police. The legal police service in Northern Ireland is the Police Service of Northern Ireland. No civilised society wants to see its police officers shot in the street. Nobody joins the police to get shot. People join the police to serve their community.

I condemn these cowards outright. I have said before, and I say again, that not one inch of Irish soil is worth the murder of anybody. These cowards must be brought to account and before the courts. The only way in which that can be done is with the support of the people. We all know that the majority of people do not support terrorists of any kind, regardless of their religious or political background. I therefore urge the public to hand in those people as quickly as possible, because before Christmas, the supposed season of goodwill, I do not want to see us standing here condemning the murder of a police officer.

Stephen Farry (Alliance, North Down)

I join other Members in condemning the attacks on the police. They are a reminder of the ongoing threat that still pervades our society against the whole community but particularly the Police Service of Northern Ireland and the other services and agencies that are involved in public protection.

We can take some degree of comfort from the fact that there is near-universal condemnation of these attacks on the police from right across the community and that they are being rejected by those who are involved in democratic politics. However, it is important that we acknowledge that there are people out there, particularly at night-time, who are seeking to protect the whole community. Arising from that, there has to be a challenge to us all to cooperate with the police, to acknowledge the risks that they are taking on our behalf and, through our own actions and the way in which we respond to other challenges that may exist on the streets, not to make things any more difficult for them than would be normal in any society.

So, we need to be clear in the Assembly that we are standing up for the rule of law across the board, without qualifications or inconsistencies, and that we are giving the police our full support unambiguously for the actions that they are taking on behalf of the community. We need to maintain our resolve as the democratically elected people of Northern Ireland that we will make our politics work and send out a strong message that we reject the use of violence, which has no place in this society, not that it ever had. We need to make quite clear through our actions as MLAs our ability to deliver on behalf of all the people of Northern Ireland the idea that democracy and the rule of law are the only way forward for this society.

William Humphrey (DUP, Belfast North)

As a Member for North Belfast, I condemn the attacks on the police on the Crumlin Road on Thursday night and in Suffolk on Friday night. They were the latest in a number of criminal and evil actions of murderous intent over the past number of months to try to kill police officers.

Going back to July last year, automatic guns were fired from Brompton Park at police officers to try to murder them; a viable device was placed at a garage in Twaddell Avenue; there was a pipe bomb beside Forth River Primary School and Forth River Park on the Ballygomartin Road; an under-car pipe bomb that fell off a car was found in Ballymagarry Lane; and a rocket launcher was found close to two primary schools in Springmartin. We raised that matter in the House. Shots were fired in July, and a blast bomb was thrown in Ardoyne.

Therefore, those people are involved in a clear programme across north and west Belfast to try to murder innocent people, including police officers. They have complete disregard for life and the community that I represent. There have been in the region of 17 bomb attacks and hoaxes in recent months, largely on police officers. The bomb on Victoria Street could have been catastrophic to this city and its economy.

It is very clear that the police need the community's support to bring those people to justice. That community support is vital. As a representative for North Belfast, I have to say that, at this stage, there needs to be more covert and overt police operations. We need to have the police actively involved in pursuing those people, and the security services need to be involved on a wider scale in apprehending those criminals, who have an evil agenda.

I appeal to those who would set their face against the full extension of the National Crime Agency to Northern Ireland to reconsider their position. Our police force, communities and people are being exposed to increasing levels of evil, and it is clear that every tool that can be used by the police and security services to bring those people to book should be used.

This evil — and it is evil — needs to stop. Dissident activity is wrong, as was the activity of the IRA during its campaign. We as a community must unite, going right across from political people to community people to those who are actively on the ground, to show very clearly that their evil intentions, criminal activity and murderous intention will not succeed.

The people of Northern Ireland will not be bombed or shot into some sort of Thirty-two County Ireland, as they were not in the past. We need to move forward and to have democracy seen to be working. Those who continually attack the political process and the institutions should remember this: this is providing succour for those who would see the political process in Northern Ireland as having failed.

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

The Member's time is up.

I call Mr Basil McCrea, who has about one minute.

Basil McCrea (NI21, Lagan Valley)

Mr Speaker, Northern Ireland stands at the precipice. I have one minute to say that the public may hope that this is an aberration and that these things will not carry on. However, they are wrong. The very situation for peace that they hope for at this time of Christmas will not happen. I fear for the fate of the Haass talks. I fear that, if they fail, we will plunge ourselves back into the abyss after the new year and that this is only a foretaste of what is to come. Whenever people in the Chamber stand up and ask for friendship, demand action or in other ways implore people to do things, they must realise that it is their responsibility and that we are in clear and present danger.

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

We are very close to Question Time, so I ask the House to take its ease as we move into Question Time.

On resuming (Mr Deputy Speaker [Mr Dallat] in the Chair) —

Oral Answers to Questions

Mark Durkan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

My Department’s recently published waste management strategy includes higher targets for the recovery and recycling of packaging waste and highlights the contribution of voluntary agreements and the incorporation of eco-design in delivering resource efficiency.

New recycling targets for the different packaging waste streams were introduced in January this year. Meeting those targets will equate to an overall packaging recycling rate of 72·7% by 2017, which is significantly above the minimum recycling target set out in the EU packaging directive.

The Courtauld commitment, which is managed by the waste and resources action programme (WRAP), is a voluntary agreement between government and the retail grocery and manufacturing sectors that is aimed at improving resource efficiency and reducing the carbon and wider environmental impact through increased prevention of food and packaging waste.

The second phase of the commitment, which ran from 2010 to 2012, resulted in a 10% reduction in the carbon impact of grocery packaging. Traditional grocery product and packaging waste in the supply chain was reduced by 7·4%. The third phase of the commitment, which commenced in May 2013 and will run until 2015, places further emphasis on the reduction of weight and the carbon impact of grocery product and packaging waste.

Mark Durkan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

I thank Ms Brown, the Deputy Chair of the Committee, for her supplementary question. This is, indeed, an issue of great importance, and it is one that we in the House all have a role in addressing, particularly as we move into Christmas, which is a time when there is a lot more waste, be it through packaging, wrapping or gift bags. I take this opportunity to put a message out there to people about the need to minimise such unnecessary waste packaging at this time.

As I said, I recently published the waste management strategy for Northern Ireland, 'Delivering Resource Efficiency'. It aims to set the direction towards using waste as a resource more efficiently and to make it a key element in developing a low-carbon circular economy. Through the Rethink Waste programme, my Department provides a range of guidance and, indeed, incentives to promote waste prevention, including around reuse and increased levels of recycling. Those include the provision of financial assistance, technical advice, communications and educational resources across the full range of stakeholders, from the individual to community groups to schools and, most importantly, to business. In the past four years, over £10 million from the Rethink Waste fund has been allocated to over 100 projects for initiatives that boost waste prevention and recycling.

John Dallat (Social Democratic and Labour Party, East Londonderry)

I neglected to tell Members that questions 8 and 13 have been withdrawn.

Cathal Boylan (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as ucht a fhreagra. What discussions on the issue has the Minister had with large retailers, and what cooperation have they given to the Department to try to address it?

Mark Durkan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

Gabhaim buíochas leis an Chomhalta as a cheist. Déanfaidh mé mo dhícheall freagra a thabhairt uirthi. I thank the Member for his question, which I will do my best to answer. Quite a lot of work has been done with small and large retailers by my Department, primarily through WRAP. I am sure that the Member, as his party's environment spokesperson, is familiar with that organisation. As recently as Friday, I spoke to people from Sainsbury's in my local Derry store about the importance of not just in tackling packaging waste, but food waste. I am aware of the work that has been done by other large retail chains on that issue. They are keen to tell me, as Minister, departmental officials, the public and, indeed, other businesses that they see real benefits in reducing waste. Obviously, they see the environmental benefits that we all want to see. However, they also see the benefit to their business not just in cost reduction but in PR and the fact that they can point to corporate responsibility and show that, the greener they are, maybe the better business they will do.

Alban Maginness (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast North)

I thank the Minister for his answers. Recyclability is a very important issue. One element of that is the reuse of carrier bags. I ask the Minister for his assessment of the impact of the carrier bag levy in promoting the reuse of carrier bags.

Mark Durkan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

I thank Mr Maginness for his question. The 5p single-use carrier bag levy has dramatically reduced the number of single-use carrier bags dispensed since its introduction in April 2013. Two recent surveys — one conducted in June and one more recently in October — suggest that around half of shoppers are now frequently reusing carrier bags. Although that is extremely encouraging, there is clearly still a lot of room for improvement. Applying a 5p levy to low-cost reusable bags should help significantly reduce unnecessary purchases of those bags, encourage even higher levels of reuse and generate even more substantial environmental benefit.

Dominic Bradley (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Newry and Armagh)

2. asked the Minister of the Environment to outline the actions he is taking to assist taxi drivers who are currently experiencing financial uncertainty as a result of delays to the implementation of changes relating to affiliations and operator licences. (AQO 5191/11-15)

Mark Durkan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

This issue was recently brought to my attention, and I instructed the Driver and Vehicle Agency (DVA) to undertake a review of the process for affiliating drivers and vehicles to a taxi operator licence. That review has now been completed, and I am pleased to be able to advise that an amended improved process has been agreed and will be implemented within the next couple of weeks. The new process will significantly reduce turnaround times for affiliating taxi drivers and vehicles to taxi operator licences. Provided that the administration fee of £5 for each additional driver or vehicle added to the licence is paid, vehicles and drivers will be added immediately to operator licences. That will mean that the Driver and Vehicle Agency will affiliate drivers and vehicles to operator licences within a target of three working days.

Dominic Bradley (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Newry and Armagh)

Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. An dtiocfadh leis an Aire a dheimhniú cén uair a thiocfas na cuspóirí atá aige deileáil leis na moilleanna seo go tapaidh, cén uair a thiocfas siad i bhfeidhm; agus cén cineál monatóireachta a dhéanfar orthu? Will the Minister confirm when the new turnaround target will come into effect? What level of monitoring will there be?

Mark Durkan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

Go raibh maith agat as an cheist shiumiúil sin. Tiocfaidh siad isteach i gcionn cúpla seachtain. I thank the Member for that interesting question. I hope that the new procedures will come in by mid-December. I have instructed that the new procedures for affiliating the taxi drivers and taxi vehicles to operate our licences should be implemented by mid-December, and the DVA will carry out checks weekly to ensure that the new process is working satisfactorily. I have asked for a report, by the end of March, on the operation of procedures to ensure that it is working as intended and that drivers and operators are seeing the benefits of this initiative.

Peter Weir (DUP, North Down)

As the operator licence scheme will be part of the wider considerations of the wider reform of taxi regulations, what consideration has the Minister given to the unique situation in Belfast city centre, and does he intend to make any changes or variations in relation to that?

Mark Durkan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

I thank Mr Weir for that supplementary question. I am aware of the lobbying that is going on, particularly around the move to single-tier licensing in Belfast and the fears of the implications that that might have for the industry, particularly in Belfast and especially for public hire in Belfast. That sector has been lobbying not only Mr Weir but parties right across the Chamber on this issue, and I have to say that I have a degree of sympathy with its fears. However, I am doing my utmost to allay them.

The demand for the services of Belfast public hire, or indeed any taxi firm, will be determined by the service that is being provided and the price at which it is provided. Consumers will, and should, be able to exercise choice, and this is a matter for each consumer. It is for my Department as a regulator to set minimum standards that all operators, vehicles and drivers must meet so that taxi users can receive the service that they expect and then to ensure compliance with those standards. That is what I have relayed again and again to representatives of Belfast public hire.

I have also undertaken to work with my counterpart the Minister for Regional Development around issues such as taxi ranks and, perhaps, access to bus lanes for wheelchair-accessible vehicles. Currently, all Belfast public-hire vehicles are wheelchair accessible, so it is fair to assume that they will still use ranks and that they will still use the bus lanes. I know that they are looking for some sort of guarantee that that might be for them alone. I am keen not to alienate anyone —

John Dallat (Social Democratic and Labour Party, East Londonderry)

The Minister has used up his time.

Mark Durkan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

— in this process, be it any driver or any company. I will be happy to work with Mr Weir and other members of the Committee to ensure that this is done right.

Anna Lo (Alliance, Belfast South)

Some Belfast public-hire members have said to me that it will not be financially viable for them to purchase or maintain taxis with disability access if it becomes single tier. Therefore, there will be a reduction in the number of taxis with disability access for the public. Can the Minister explain what measures he is taking for this not to happen and for the current level of taxis with disability access to be provided?

Mark Durkan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

I thank the Chair of the Environment Committee for her question. This is certainly not what we envisage happening, and it is certainly not what we intend to happen. Having met consumer groups, Disability Action and other representatives of consumers with disabilities, I know that it is not what they see happening either. On the contrary, what I have heard from representatives in the taxi industry is that there may be a rush to purchase taxis with disabled access, thus rendering obsolete any advantage that one sector currently has. This is about improving standards, improving accessibility and improving the service and the industry for consumers and also for drivers and operators. As I said in an earlier answer, it will really be the market that directs this.

If drivers see that there is an advantage in having disability accessible cars, I have no doubt that they will pursue that avenue.

As regards other cost implications of the implementation of the Taxis Act, at the behest of the Committee, the introduction of the Act was put back from September this year until September next year. I have looked further at this to enable drivers and operators to prepare for the implementation, and I am going to stagger the introduction of measures as part of the Act — for example, receipt printers will not now be necessary until 2016. We have looked at the costs, and it is calculated that the cost to individual drivers will be somewhere in the region of £840 over five years.

Caitriona Ruane (Sinn Féin, South Down)

3. asked the Minister of the Environment to outline the information and communications technology system convergence works that are being brought forward in advance of the review of public administration. (AQO 5192/11-15)

Mark Durkan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

Delivering the right information and communication technology (ICT) option to support local government reform is paramount. The systems convergence working group, which was set up by my predecessor under the reform structures, has engaged Gartner advisory services to review the ICT requirements for local government. The purpose of that was to plan in advance of April 2015 for the transition from 26 councils to 11 new councils and to determine the best strategic delivery model for local government ICT services thereafter.

Gartner has engaged with local government stakeholders to establish key systems convergence priorities, options for the creation of a strategic delivery model and resource plans to deliver key pieces of work for local ICT services. Initial findings show that local government believes that a new, more agile, adaptive and flexible ICT delivery model is required to deliver the types of local government services that citizens require, particularly given the challenging fiscal environment. It has been agreed that a hybrid model best aligns with the anticipated working practices of the consolidated councils.

In order to deliver the Gartner report’s recommendations, it is proposed that a project team is set up to work closely with representatives from each of the 11 statutory transition committees (STCs) in the run-up to April 2015. A consultation on this proposal is under way across local government, and the outcome from the exercise should be available in mid-December.

The project team will work to create an IT strategy and a more detailed operating model, but, for now, four main types of ICT models are proposed. First, the development of a local government-wide telephony solution, which will result in reduced costs and ease of connectivity between all of local government. Secondly, the creation of a local government active directory that will provide for regional identity and access management as well as the opportunity to deliver secure common business platforms. Thirdly, the formation of a regional data centre, which will result in —

John Dallat (Social Democratic and Labour Party, East Londonderry)

The Minister has used up his time.

Mark Durkan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

— reduced hardware costs and a reduced requirement for servers, storage, business continuity and disaster recovery.

Caitriona Ruane (Sinn Féin, South Down)

Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as a fhreagra go dtí seo. I thank the Minister for his answers up to now. How does the Minister envisage councils meeting the financial implications of the ICT system convergence?

Mark Durkan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

In February, the Executive kindly agreed to proposals from my predecessor for a financial package around the reform of local government. That totalled £47 million, of which £30 million will deal with rates convergence and the rest with other aspects of reform, including the systems convergence that we are talking about.

As it is anticipated and, indeed, expected that local government will yield the benefits of huge savings in the future through reform, councils should also face some of the cost of reform. Work is ongoing on a voluntary basis between many councils through the innovation for competitive enterprises (ICE) programme. Those councils have seen benefits through that, and I would like to explore the possibility of making it non-optional and non-voluntary to get more councils on board. They will see the benefits. It is not just about making financial savings. It is also about improving the delivery of services to ratepayers and citizens.

Leslie Cree (UUP, North Down)

Minister, can you tell us when local councils will be given accurate and final figures with respect to the implementation of an ICT programme that is specifically for the Planning Service?

Mark Durkan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

I will have to come back to the Member with a precise anticipated date for that. However, I know that it is an issue of huge concern to local councils and to existing statutory transition committees, of which I have met three over the past two weeks and intend to meet a further three this week. The transfer of planning is perhaps the issue that most questions have been asked about during my meetings with the STCs. People are worried not only about the cost associated with delivering planning but about the training that will be required for members of councils to deal with and make planning decisions. So I am keen for the Planning Service to be fit for purpose and easy to transfer to local councils.

Basil McCrea (NI21, Lagan Valley)

Has the Minister considered open source coding platforms as a way of reducing the cost of licences and improving services in the forthcoming changes?

Mark Durkan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

I thank the Member for that question. I have not, to date, considered that. I must check whether my officials have, and, if not, I am sure that we now will.

Colum Eastwood (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

I thank the Minister for his answers thus far. What level of savings is expected as part of the convergence work?

Mark Durkan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

ICE has calculated that, over the 25 years from reform, savings in the region of £200 million will be realised. Obviously, there is outlay at the start of reform, and I spoke of the £47 million that will come directly from the Executive to assist with that. We definitely need, at this advanced stage, more buy-in and cooperation from councils, not necessarily with the Department but with each other. I spoke of the ICE programme and the fact that its voluntary nature means that not as many councils as we would have liked have signed up or participated. In fact, you could describe the speed of ICE as glacial. However, now that people realise that we have come so far and are so close to local government reform, there will be more action from councils. Many of them and, indeed, all the elected representatives whom I have met are determined that this will cross the line in a way that delivers a better service to citizens and does so at a fair price.

Jo-Anne Dobson (UUP, Upper Bann)

4. asked the Minister of the Environment whether either the First Minister or deputy First Minister has raised directly with him any opposition to his statement on the 22 October 2013 regarding his decision not to proceed with the Planning Bill. (AQO 5193/11-15)

Mark Durkan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

In my statement to the Assembly on 22 October, I clearly set out the legal, procedural and evidential reasons for my decision not to move the Planning Bill to Further Consideration Stage, including the fact that the Department's legal opinion from David Elvin QC and Paul McLaughlin BL indicated that clauses 4 and 15 were outside the legislative competence of the Assembly. Subsequent to my statement, there was opposition to my decision not to move the Bill from some quarters in the Assembly, notably from those who tabled the two significant amendments. Otherwise, I have been heartened by the widespread support that I have received from many quarters in and outside the Chamber for the difficult but necessary decision that I took, which was in the best interests of the planning system and everyone in the North. I stand over that decision. Since I made my decision, I have obtained further supplementary legal opinion from David Elvin QC and Paul McLaughlin BL that reaffirms their initial opinion. I have shared that opinion with Executive colleagues and the Attorney General and invited them to consider it carefully and diligently. I have yet to receive any formal or direct comment that opposes its veracity.

I can advise that I was approached to meet, and have now met, the First Minister and deputy First Minister to explore their views on my decision not to move the Bill. The meeting was a useful and positive engagement and raised a number of issues that I now want carefully and diligently to consider.

This is the responsible thing to do, and I anticipate further discussions in the near future. In the meantime, I remain committed to pressing ahead with speeding up and improving the planning system to provide the certainty that investors and others need to ensure that planning plays its full role in supporting economic recovery and sustainable development.

Jo-Anne Dobson (UUP, Upper Bann)

I thank the Minister for his answer. Will he be taking any further action to clarify the seemingly significant contradiction between the legal advice of one of our country's top planning and public law QCs and that provided to the First Minister and deputy First Minister by the Attorney General?

Mark Durkan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

As a Minister, I have the right to seek and receive legal advice from whatever source I deem appropriate. I have chosen to do so from David Elvin QC, an eminent barrister in this field who is widely recognised as one of the top barristers on these islands in planning and public law. I stand by his advice. Other Ministers have the right to seek advice from where they want. Subsequent to my announcement, I have received advice from the Attorney General that he disagreed with the initial opinion that I had sought. However, upon seeking a second opinion from the same source and sharing it with the Attorney General and my Executive colleagues, I have not had anyone question the veracity of that legal opinion.

Gregory Campbell (DUP, East Londonderry)

I commend the Minister. Not long after he took office, I went to him on a planning issue that affected a number of jobs in the north-west. He took direct action and, as a result, those jobs were safeguarded. On that very basis, Minister, and given the complicated planning process we have, which, on some occasions, means planning processes taking years not months, what are you going to do to introduce a much more streamlined, effective delivery mechanism so that people can see that there is a point in a planning application, particularly if many jobs are at risk?

Mark Durkan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

I thank Mr Campbell for his thanks for working on that particular issue, in your constituency, Mr Deputy Speaker.

As I said, I am determined to ensure that we have a planning system that is fast, fair and fit for purpose. I have quite a few ideas on how to do that, some of which I shared with the First Minister and deputy First Minister during our meeting two weeks ago. I have come back from that meeting having been given a bit of time to work up proposals, which I hope to present to them and the Assembly in the near future. As I said, I think it is vital that we have a planning system that gives certainty to investors and to others. That is what I fully intend to bring about.

Pat Ramsey (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

Will the Minister share with us the feedback that he has received from the business and environmental communities and the general public in relation to his decision not to proceed with the Planning Bill?

Mark Durkan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

I will happily share the gist of the feedback with the Member and the House. Since my decision not to proceed with the Planning Bill, which I termed as having been made toxic by the significant amendments tabled at Consideration Stage, I have received very positive feedback wherever I have gone, be it through meeting environmental groups or representatives of the business community in the North. They, too, want to see a planning system that is fast and gives certainty, and want to play their part in ensuring that we have one. Everyone I have spoken to since making my decision — all of them; I emphasise that — has been of the opinion that the Planning Bill as amended was not the way to do that.

John Dallat (Social Democratic and Labour Party, East Londonderry)

That ends the period for listed questions. We now move on to 15 minutes of topical questions.

Michaela Boyle (Sinn Féin, West Tyrone)

1. asked the Minister of the Environment for an update on the three rivers project in Strabane. (AQT 481/11-15)

Mark Durkan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

Go raibh maith agat as an cheist sin. It is not the first time today that I have been asked for an update on the three rivers project. Barely a day goes past when I am not asked for an update on that proposal, such is the fervour in Strabane and the surrounding area, and such is the desire there to see the proposal come to fruition. I am assessing the application. As I said, I am aware of demand in the area. I took time two months ago to walk around Strabane, where I spoke to shoppers and shopkeepers and was struck by the overwhelming support for the proposal. It was not unanimous, but it was overwhelming. I hope to be in a position to make a decision on the application in the not-too-distant future. However, there are some technical issues around the application that need to be addressed.

Michaela Boyle (Sinn Féin, West Tyrone)

Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. Given the high importance of this economic development in Strabane, I ask the Minister what efforts he has made to try to resolve the outstanding planning issues.

Mark Durkan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

There are several outstanding planning issues, and without wanting to get into the detail of each and every individual issue on each and every planning application in the Chamber, I will happily meet the Member to discuss the application with her.

Rosaleen McCorley (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

2. asked the Minister of the Environment for an update on the planning application for the Black Mountain, which he discussed with Paul Maskey and me a couple of weeks ago. (AQT 482/11-15)

Rosaleen McCorley (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as a fhreagraí go dtí seo. Mar is eol don Aire, bhuail mé féin agus Paul Maskey leis roinnt seachtainí ó shin, agus phléigh muid an t-iarratas pleanála faoin Sliabh Dubh. Bhí mé ag smaoineamh an dtiocfadh leis an Aire sinn a thabhairt suas chun dáta ar an iarratas sin. Can you give us an update on that, le do thoil?

Mark Durkan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

Go raibh maith agat as an cheist sin. I did indeed meet the Member and the MP for West Belfast on the issue at Black Mountain. I am sympathetic to the concerns raised at the meeting. At that stage, I was awaiting a further consultation response from the National Trust, which I do not believe has been received by the Department as yet. I will pursue that. If it has arrived, I will get back to the Member, and if it has not, I will chase it up to see where it is.

Rosaleen McCorley (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as an fhreagra sin. An dtig leis an Aire a dheimhniú gur ghlac sé san áireamh na himnithe ar leith atá ag an phobal áitiúil? Can the Minister assure me that the local residents' concerns have been taken into account?

Mark Durkan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

Every planning application is subject to full scrutiny, and the opinions and concerns of objectors are taken very seriously and taken into account. On this particular application, I am acutely aware of the concerns and of the fact that they centre around health fears, and so forth, as well as potential damage to an area of outstanding natural beauty that is now much used by hillwalkers and mountain bikers etc. I assure the Member that those concerns have been taken on board and will be taken into account when a final decision is being made.

Gregory Campbell (DUP, East Londonderry)

3. asked the Minister of the Environment whether, given the cross-cutting nature of road safety issues between his Department and the Department of Justice, he has had any recent discussions with the Justice Minister on speed detection vans and their use. (AQT 483/11-15)

Mark Durkan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

I recently met the Minister of Justice, and a lot of our work is cross-cutting, not least on road safety. However, the issue of speed detection vans did not come up during the meeting. I will happily go back and have another meeting with the Minister of Justice and put that matter on the table. It is vital that all Departments work together to reduce the likelihood and incidence of road accidents. In this role, I am determined to ensure full cooperation and collaboration with others to drive down the number of driving-related deaths and accidents on our roads.

Gregory Campbell (DUP, East Londonderry)

I thank the Minister for that response. Will he ensure that, in his discussions on road safety with the Minister of Justice, the conversations on the use of speed detection vans will concentrate on road safety and accident prevention? Many people believe that that is more a case of raising revenue, given that they see speed detection vans placed repeatedly in areas where there have been no accidents whatsoever. It appears purely to be a revenue-raising exercise.

Mark Durkan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

I will certainly raise the issue with the Minister.

Gregory Campbell (DUP, East Londonderry)

Who has now joined us.

Mark Durkan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

Yes; he has now joined us. Maybe you can raise it with him before I can.

I am aware of the public perception that speed traps are there to boost revenue rather than to reduce accidents. I am aware of a few such spots in my constituency. There is a spot not very far from the Member's house, and one might find that it is particularly profitable. [Laughter.] I am determined that resources should be allocated where they are needed to reduce accidents, not to boost the coffers.

Sean Lynch (Sinn Féin, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

4. asked the Minister of the Environment to assure the House that the name “glens” will not be removed from any business marketing or promotional work within the new council cluster of Causeway Coast and Glens. (AQT 484/11-15)

Mark Durkan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

Go raibh maith agat as an cheist. In my opinion, that will really be a matter for the new council to decide on. However, one would imagine that the council would like to have everything in the title that will increase the number of tourists coming into the area. Although the Causeway is, of course, widely recognised, one cannot understate the tourism value of the glens.

Sean Lynch (Sinn Féin, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire. I thank the Minister for his answer. He has answered my supplementary question by agreeing that the removal of "glens" from the name of the new council would be detrimental. Go raibh maith agat.

Mark Durkan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

Ná habair é. Do not mention it. If I can see that the removal of "glens" from the names of initiatives in that council area could be detrimental to tourism, one can only imagine that locally elected representatives and those who are charged with making these decisions will also be all too well aware of it.

Caitriona Ruane (Sinn Féin, South Down)

5. asked the Minister of the Environment to outline how he is assisting the community and voluntary sector to participate fully in the community planning process. (AQT 485/11-15)

Mark Durkan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

During questions for oral answer, I spoke of the training that will be provided as part of local government reform. Although a lot of the emphasis of that training will naturally be directed towards local government and locally elected representatives, there will also be training for the community and voluntary sector in and around community planning. Community planning is a very exciting and very important part of RPA. We need the full buy-in of communities — not just the community and voluntary sector, but communities — to ensure that it works.

Therefore, councils and STCs will be charged with delivering training on a local basis. It is important that, for community planning to succeed, a bottom-up approach is taken. Of course we need Departments and Ministers signed up and buying in to it, but, for it to really succeed on the ground, we need ordinary people whose lives will be affected by it to play a full role.

Caitriona Ruane (Sinn Féin, South Down)

Go raibh maith agat. Will the Minister outline whether he has had discussions with the Minister for Social Development about community and voluntary sector participation and, if so, what they entailed?

Mark Durkan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

Although my Department is charged with local government reform, other Departments will transfer functions. The Department for Social Development will transfer the function of community development. The model by which it is transferring differs from that of my Department. Currently, the Department for Social Development is transferring the budget associated with community development without transferring the staff. However, the new councils that will have the powers and functions transferred to them will be given the option of taking on the staff from DSD who currently perform this function on a secondment basis.

Dominic Bradley (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Newry and Armagh)

6. asked the Minister of the Environment for an update on the Road Traffic (Drink Driving) (Amendment) Bill, which aims to reduce deaths and injuries on our roads. (AQT 486/11-15)

Arbh fhéidir leis an Aire an t-eolas reatha atá aige ar an Bhille chun an tAcht Tráchta Bóthair a leasú a roinnt linn? Tá sé de aidhm ag an Bhille sin gortuithe agus básanna ar na bóithre a mhaolú.

Mark Durkan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

Go raibh maith agat. Gabhaim buíochas as an cheist. I will happily provide an update on the status of the Bill, which will play an important role in driving down the carnage on our roads. The principal objectives of the Bill are to reduce fatal and serious injuries from collisions where driver or rider alcohol consumption is a causation factor and to address the over-representation of young drivers in fatal and serious collisions. A comprehensive consultation process was carried out in the development of the policies: the drink-driving consultation of 2009; the graduated driver licensing policy consultation in 2011; and the drink-driving legislation consultation just last year. The original version of the paper was issued to the Executive on 15 May this year. I understand that there are competing priorities in the Executive, but I hope to be in a position to introduce this important Bill early next year.

Dominic Bradley (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Newry and Armagh)

Will the Minister tell us what impact he believes the Bill will have on the statistics?

Mark Durkan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

As I said, one of the key aims of the Bill is to tackle the over-representation of young drivers in our fatal and serious road collision statistics. The graduated driver licensing programme that I referred to in my earlier answer will play a key role in this, if statistics elsewhere across the globe are to be believed. This is a very important issue. I believe that the Bill will succeed in reducing road accidents and should, therefore, be welcomed across the House.

Dolores Kelly (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Upper Bann)

1. asked the Minister of Justice to outline any discussions he, or his officials, have had with the Northern Ireland Commissioner for Children and Young People in relation to the proposed changes in legal aid for family law cases. (AQO 5205/11-15)

David Ford (Alliance, South Antrim)

To date, neither I nor my officials have had any discussions with or received any submissions from the Northern Ireland Commissioner for Children and Young People about the proposed changes to legal aid for family law cases. The commissioner did, however, provide a written response to the proposals for the reform of financial eligibility for civil and criminal legal aid. My officials are currently considering responses to proposals to change civil legal aid remuneration, and I am happy to meet the commissioner to discuss the policy proposals.

Dolores Kelly (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Upper Bann)

I thank the Minister for his answer. I am disappointed that, until now, there was no invitation to the Children's Commissioner for a meeting. The Minister will be aware of the grave concern about the impact of legal aid changes on representation in family law courts. Will the Minister take on board the concerns raised by the Children's Law Centre and others in relation to the reduced budget potential for representation at such hearings?

David Ford (Alliance, South Antrim)

I assure Mrs Kelly that we will take on board all the representations received, including those from the Children's Law Centre, but Members will be aware of the difficult financial circumstances that we are in and the necessity of ensuring that we bring legal aid expenditure within budget without reducing the scope of legal aid. That remains my intention.

Sean Lynch (Sinn Féin, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. Is the Minister satisfied that the proposed cuts to the legal aid budget for family law matters will not have a negative impact on vulnerable children?

David Ford (Alliance, South Antrim)

I have done my best to ensure that we will not see any cuts that would affect the rights of vulnerable claimants, be they children or others. That is one of the issues that we are looking at in the review of access to justice. We are looking at the needs of children and young people in particular, but I repeat the point that I have just made to Mrs Kelly: there are difficult financial circumstances, and we are maintaining the scope of legal aid at a significantly wider level than in England and Wales.

Robin Swann (UUP, North Antrim)

Does the Minister accept that, in cases of implacable hostility, a parent may need the protection of the court to maintain a relationship with their child? Will legal aid still be available in those cases?

David Ford (Alliance, South Antrim)

The answer is yes, I accept that vulnerable parents may need legal aid, and it will continue to be available. We have to ensure that the appropriate representation is provided, and I remain to be convinced that it is always necessary to provide the level of representation that is currently provided. Frequently, a solicitor would be capable of handling a case where, at the moment, a junior barrister may be funded, and a junior barrister would be capable of handling a case where, currently, a QC is funded.

Jim Allister (Traditional Unionist Voice, North Antrim)

Has the Minister met any solicitors who are deeply exercised by his proposals, particularly in respect of civil legal aid? Many of them have been lobbying Members of the House. How many times has the Minister met such solicitors to hear and to understand the concerns that they have?

David Ford (Alliance, South Antrim)

I attended a meeting convened by the Law Society some weeks ago at which a very large number of solicitors were present. I have also met officers of the Law Society. Given the number of solicitors' firms in this jurisdiction, I do not think that it would be possible for me to meet each individual who has written to the Department or to individual MLAs.

Leslie Cree (UUP, North Down)

2. asked the Minister of Justice whether further search technology is to be piloted in local prisons to enhance search procedures and to negate the need for body searches. (AQO 5206/11-15)

David Ford (Alliance, South Antrim)

The Northern Ireland Prison Service has evaluated millimetre wave scanners in the prison environment and has sought to obtain the necessary licences and approvals to pilot transmission X-ray body scanning technology in our prisons. In accordance with the justification of practices legislation, the required justification application was lodged with the Department of Energy and Climate Change in May. The process must now be completed by Chris Grayling, the Secretary of State for Justice, following consideration by the justification liaison group. All of this is outside the control of my officials.

While I remain determined to reduce the level of personal intrusion that is inherent in existing search procedures, any new solution must, at minimum, perform at least as well as the existing methods. Ultimately, nothing should be done that would compromise the safety of everyone in our prisons.

Leslie Cree (UUP, North Down)

I thank the Minister for his response, which was interesting. I understand the difficulty that you are having, but could any alternative technology be used that would eliminate the requirement for full-body searches?

David Ford (Alliance, South Antrim)

In response to what is a fair supplementary question, I can inform Mr Cree that the only two technologies that have been assessed as in any way suitable are the millimetre wave scanners, which we trialled and found not to be suitable, and the transmission X-ray scanners, for which we seek the justification approval. The reality is that, even if successful, such scanners would not remove completely the need for full-body searches. For example, if they were to identify that something was secreted, it would then be a requirement to have a full-body search. As I am aware, at this stage, there is no other technology beyond those two, although we keep in touch with developments worldwide.

Pat Ramsey (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

Given that it is a most emotive subject and considering the concerns with that and accepting that there are statutory requirements in relation to the scanners, has an independent assessment or evaluation been carried out of the suitability of those full-body scanners?

David Ford (Alliance, South Antrim)

Again, I appreciate Mr Ramsey's point. The reality is that the Northern Ireland Prison Service is at the forefront in these islands of looking at this technology. It is in use in airports, but it is not in use in any prison or similar facility anywhere in these islands. That is why we have to go through the detail of the justification application, and that is why the matters are technically out of our hands at the moment. We simply await the response to that application.

Raymond McCartney (Sinn Féin, Foyle)

Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as an fhreagra sin. Given the time for which we have been involved in the process of seeking a licence, is the Minister satisfied that proper urgency is being provided? Is it a case of people not wanting to do this and looking for ways to slow it down?

David Ford (Alliance, South Antrim)

I cannot give Mr McCartney assurances on what processes are entirely being applied by DECC, but I can say that meetings are being held, Prison Service staff have been at them and we have done our best to push forward the fact that this is an important and urgent issue for us. Clearly, however, there is a major issue about a completely new technology being used in prisons, and it is only right that that should be subjected to proper assessments on health grounds.

Cathal Ó hOisín (Sinn Féin, East Londonderry)

3. asked the Minister of Justice whether any areas of increased cross border cooperation were discussed at his recent meeting with the Minister for Justice and Equality. (AQO 5207/11-15)

David Ford (Alliance, South Antrim)

There is very positive ongoing cooperation between the various criminal justice agencies across the two jurisdictions. That reveals itself most notably through the six project advisory groups covering public protection, managing offenders, forensic science, victims and witnesses, youth justice and criminal justice and social diversity.

Cooperation is developing further in areas including work to speed up justice by sharing best practice on the production of short or fast-track reports for courts; the drafting and development of a forensic partnership strategy and action plan, which covers the forensic science services of Northern Ireland, Ireland and Scotland; the holding of a cross-border hate crime seminar; ongoing discussions on the European victims directive; development of an information-sharing agreement between the PSNI and an Garda Síochána relating to domestic and child abuse; and the development of a protocol between the juvenile justice centres in Northern Ireland and Ireland.

Cathal Ó hOisín (Sinn Féin, East Londonderry)

Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as a fhreagra. Will the Minister give an update on the all-Ireland approach to dealing with human trafficking?

David Ford (Alliance, South Antrim)

You will appreciate, Mr Deputy Speaker, that the issue of human trafficking is, as I will announce shortly in my statement on the North/South meeting, a matter of key concern in both jurisdictions. It is an issue on which we see joined-up working between an Garda Síochána and the PSNI, in particular, and through the involvement of an Garda Síochána in the Organised Crime Task Force subgroup on human trafficking.

Back in October, Alan Shatter, as Minister for Justice and Equality, and I opened and co-hosted a cross-border forum on human trafficking to enable the various agencies to identify the challenges and seek cooperative solutions. We are currently looking at bids for EU funding in respect of education around trafficking and meeting the needs of victims. They are all matters that are of considerable concern to a number of North/South agencies and that the two of us, as Ministers, continue to discuss regularly.

Paul Givan (DUP, Lagan Valley)

Given the importance of cross-border cooperation, what action is the Minister taking to ensure that the response by the Garda Commissioner to ACC Drew Harris's evidence is properly dealt with and does not jeopardise that relationship? Does the Minister intend to continue with his political expediency of being blasé about the Smithwick tribunal report?

David Ford (Alliance, South Antrim)

It is difficult to answer a question that is based on an utterly false premise, Deputy Speaker. Stating the reality that a few bad apples does not mean that an entire force is corrupt is a simple statement of fact, whether some Members like it or not. That is not being blasé; that is being utterly factual.

Last week, on a number of occasions, I had informal discussions with Alan Shatter TD on dealing with the issues arising from the Smithwick report. As I said earlier in the House, the two of us will have a formal meeting with the Garda Commissioner and the PSNI Chief Constable. We will ensure that we maintain the best possible joined-up working.

I certainly accept that there was a difficulty in the last few days between the Garda barrister and ACC Drew Harris. The assurance that I have from the Minister for Justice and Equality is that he accepts, as Judge Smithwick did, the evidence that Drew Harris presented to the tribunal.

Alban Maginness (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast North)

In relation to cross-border cooperation, will the Minister consider seriously with his colleague in the South the setting up of a model of intelligence exchange based on the integrated border intelligence team made up of agencies from the United States and Canada, as recommended by Judge Smithwick?

David Ford (Alliance, South Antrim)

I thank Mr Maginness for that question, because it reflects significantly the need to ensure the best possible joining up. This morning, I was actually out with PSNI and HMRC officers on an operation directed against fuel laundering. It was very close to the border near Cullaville in south Armagh. On that operation, there was direct cross-border cooperation using the same vehicle-to-vehicle radio system between the PSNI and Garda Síochána. That is an example of positive movement forward.

The issue of intelligence sharing is, of course, one that can also feature in agencies that are not my devolved responsibility. However, the lessons to be learned, as highlighted by Judge Smithwick, are ones that I am determined to learn. I believe that Alan Shatter shares my concerns.

Michael Copeland (UUP, Belfast East)

4. asked the Minister of Justice whether he intends to introduce a domestic abuse disclosure scheme. (AQO 5208/11-15)

David Ford (Alliance, South Antrim)

The Home Secretary announced recently that the domestic violence disclosure scheme currently operating on a pilot basis in specific locations in England and Wales will be rolled out across England and Wales from March 2014. Department of Justice officials have been liaising with colleagues in the Home Office throughout the duration of the pilot scheme. The evaluation arising from it will be shared with the regional strategy group on domestic and sexual violence, which will consider the potential to introduce a domestic violence disclosure scheme in Northern Ireland.

Michael Copeland (UUP, Belfast East)

I thank the Minister for his answer. Can he share any details that he may have regarding the success or otherwise of the scheme where it has been introduced in those pilots in the rest of the UK?

David Ford (Alliance, South Antrim)

I do not have the detail of the scheme, as it was implemented by the Home Office, but my officials will certainly seek the most detailed information possible on it. What we have are options of, potentially, two different kinds of process for disclosing information, whether it be the opportunity for a member of the public to have the right to ask or the potential of disclosure to a prospective victim — what is described as "the right to know". Both can be implemented in the England and Wales arrangements. The important issue is to see that we get the message across in Northern Ireland. Certainly, there is already informal sharing with the PSNI anyway.

Rosaleen McCorley (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as a fhreagra. In relation to the recent negative report on domestic violence that was carried out by the Criminal Justice Inspection, can the Minister assure us that those recommendations will be implemented as soon as possible?

David Ford (Alliance, South Antrim)

Of course, that job falls largely to the regional strategy group on domestic and sexual violence, but I can assure all Members of the House that reports from CJINI are taken seriously in the Department. We will seek to ensure that those recommendations are followed up in the most appropriate way.

Karen McKevitt (Social Democratic and Labour Party, South Down)

Will the Minister ensure that all victims of domestic abuse are offered special measures when involved in court proceedings?

David Ford (Alliance, South Antrim)

I cannot give an assurance in quite the way in which the question asked for it, but I would have thought that the reality is that the great majority of victims of domestic abuse will find themselves eligible for special measures. To give a blanket guarantee that all victims in all circumstances will receive an entitlement to special measures is beyond me as Minister at this point.

Anna Lo (Alliance, Belfast South)

5. asked the Minister of Justice to outline his plans to increase the opportunities for prisoners to access training and employment experience whilst in custody. (AQO 5209/11-15)

David Ford (Alliance, South Antrim)

Key to the reform of prisons is putting the offender at the centre of the prison system, assessing his or her needs and working in partnership to address those needs, aiding their successful reintegration into the community on release and making society safer by doing so. Indeed, education, training and employment is one of the key resettlement pathways to which the Prison Service has committed itself. Reflecting that, one of this year's business targets was that NIPS would, for the first time, publish an employability strategy by March 2014. The strategy was, in fact, published on 20 September. It is a four-year strategy covering the period 2013 to 2017, linking the opportunities available to prisoners with employment market trends and opportunities through the delivery of a range of services.

One of those services must be a modernised learning and skills service. I am glad to inform Members that work is well under way to put in place a revised curriculum and outsourced delivery model during 2014, with employment skills training as one of the core elements. A range of employment initiatives is under development, and a new passport to employment, which was developed by prisoners and aims to capture soft skills in addition to qualifications gained, is being piloted in Maghaberry.

Anna Lo (Alliance, Belfast South)

I thank the Minister for outlining some of the more strategic policy initiatives. Will he give us some examples of how the outworking of these policies and strategies is beginning to be seen on the ground?

David Ford (Alliance, South Antrim)

I thank the Member for her supplementary. I am not quite sure how much is available on the ground, but I will talk a little about what is available in the institutions. We have already seen good progress: for example, Members may have heard mention of a social enterprise called Mugshots that I launched a couple of weeks ago in Hydebank Wood. I probably should not do a commercial, but I will anyway: if anyone is looking for mugs, T-shirts, carrier bags or similar articles to be printed with the logo of any institutions, Mugshots can do a very good range for you.

Five prisoners are undergoing a business mentoring scheme with Business in the Community, and I referred to the passport to employment at Maghaberry, which covers soft skills as well as specific qualifications. A number of prisoners were interviewed by the Timpson group for 16-week work placements. Two are already on placement, with other interviews scheduled for next week. The UK-wide Employers' Forum for Reducing Re-offending, in which the Timpson company has a very significant role, is undertaking work that will lead to some opportunities for Maghaberry in February. Those are key examples of things moving forward. We also hope, in the very near future, to see the publication of the prospectus for Hydebank college as we seek to transfer the running of the young offenders' centre (YOC) into a mechanism more suited to meeting the needs of offenders and providing them with the skills for when they return.

Maurice (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

I listened carefully to the Minister's response to the question. My concern is always for the victims of violence. What message does this send to them? Will he ensure that the sensitivities and needs of victims are also considered when any new programmes are introduced for prisoners?

David Ford (Alliance, South Antrim)

I entirely agree with Lord Morrow about the importance that we should place on the needs of victims. Indeed, we have put in place the victims and witnesses' strategy to show the importance of that. However, in the specific context of rehabilitating those in prison in order to make this society safer by having fewer victims in the future, we have a specific obligation to put a lot of effort into that rehabilitation work. I have just highlighted a key part of that, which is employability.

Michaela Boyle (Sinn Féin, West Tyrone)

Go raibh maith agat. Does the Minister agree that, when prisoners are not engaged in purposeful activity, the process of rehabilitation is fundamentally undermined?

David Ford (Alliance, South Antrim)

I certainly do agree, which is why we hope that, under the new arrangements for Hydebank Wood, we will have close to 30 hours a week of constructive activity, whether related to education, skills or employment for that group of prisoners in Hydebank Wood. We will seek to make similar changes in the other institutions.

Seán Rogers (Social Democratic and Labour Party, South Down)

I thank the Minister for his answers thus far. What progress has been made in the development of education and training services at Hydebank Wood?

David Ford (Alliance, South Antrim)

I hope that we will outsource the education and skills provisions formally in the very near future. I mentioned the college prospectus, which is very close to finalisation. Members will appreciate that this is a very significant and fundamental change to the running of the college. That is why, with the new governor in place and a task force established to look at that particular work, we seek to make that major transformation over the coming months. When I visited the Mugshots enterprise, it was certainly a very positive example of how one relatively small group of prisoners had already seen the opportunity to do something more constructive, but it is a challenge to get that rolled out to as many prisoners as possible.

John McCallister (UUP, South Down)

6. asked the Minister of Justice for his assessment of the recent Committee on the Administration of Justice report on the estimated costs of dealing with the past. (AQO 5210/11-15)

David Ford (Alliance, South Antrim)

I welcome the Criminal Justice Inspection Northern Ireland (CJINI) report and thank the inspectors and staff for their thorough and informative review. I asked CJINI to carry out the review to give us a better understanding of the cost and impact on the criminal justice system of dealing with our past. The report puts the estimated costs at around £30 million this year. In the next five years, at current estimates and allowing for inflation, it is projected to exceed £180 million. That is a low-end and conservative estimate.

The report recognises the significant efforts made across the justice system to deal with our past. However, it also highlights the challenges the system faces, both in dealing with the past and delivering an effective justice system now and for the future. It is a further reminder that dealing with the past is not simply a justice issue; it is for all of us across government and civic society.

John McCallister (UUP, South Down)

I am grateful to the Minister for his reply. He has stated on previous occasions that, without agreed and properly resourced structures to deal with the past both within and outside our justice system, there is a significant risk that public confidence will be undermined in dealing with the past and legacy issues. Does the Minister have a proposal on how the structures to deal with the past might be paid for?

David Ford (Alliance, South Antrim)

Although I appreciate Mr McCallister's question, I think that, at this point in the discussions between the parties under the chairmanship of Dr Richard Haass and Dr Meghan O'Sullivan, it would be a foolish Member of the House who set out their plans, given that they might be contradicted by an agreed process within the week.

Mike Nesbitt (UUP, Strangford)

Does the Minister put a financial cost on dealing with the past? Does he think that is appropriate for victims?

David Ford (Alliance, South Antrim)

Mr Nesbitt makes a reasonable point, but I can only answer the question I was asked about the estimated costs, and I have done so. There is, of course, a real issue for this society as to how we deal with the past, how we address the needs of victims and how we deal with the fact that some people have benefited from a very expensive inquiry and others will not. The ongoing work of the Historical Enquiries Team (HET), the Police Ombudsman and inquests all have costs, but are all less than completely satisfactory ways of meeting the needs of society as a whole and of specific individual victims. I take the point that Mr Nesbitt makes. I was asked about the costs and I have given them, but it is a much wider issue and one that goes way beyond the justice system.

Ian McCrea (DUP, Mid Ulster)

7. asked the Minister of Justice for his assessment of the local drugs problem. (AQO 5211/11-15)

David Ford (Alliance, South Antrim)

Statistics provided by the PSNI indicate that drug seizures and arrests have seen upward trends over the past three years. The Organised Crime Task Force's 2013 report noted that the drugs market in Northern Ireland had seen extensive change over the past few years, mirroring that seen in other parts of the UK and Europe. Further, while cannabis continues to be the main drug used in Northern Ireland, the emergence of new psychoactive substances has been challenging for law enforcement, together with a growing market in prescription drugs bought over the internet.

The Department of Justice is a major contributor to the outcomes defined in the Executive’s 'New Strategic Direction for Alcohol and Drugs Phase 2 2011-2016', which is led by the DHSSPS, the aim of which is to reduce drug- and alcohol-related harm in Northern Ireland. In addition, my Department’s community safety strategy reflects the outcomes contained in the new strategic direction, and my Department and its agencies are working with key stakeholders to deliver those outcomes.

Ian McCrea (DUP, Mid Ulster)

The Minister has referred to the increase year on year in the number of detections for drugs. Although that is welcome, it is also deeply saddening that there are so many people who continue to deal drugs. Can the Minister give an assurance that he, along with the Minister of Health and the PSNI, will do everything that he can to ensure that drug dealers, who are a scourge on our society, are removed from our streets and everything is done to get the appropriate evidence not only to arrest those people but to bring them to justice?