Northern Ireland Assembly, 9 September 2014

346 contributions from 63 members. The official report.

Assembly Business

Gregory Campbell (DUP, East Londonderry)

On a point of order, Mr Speaker. It relates to the debate yesterday on the 'Spotlight' programme. I do not wish to reopen any debating points that were made, but I have a copy of yesterday's Hansard, and, during a contribution by my friend the Member for North Down Mr Weir, Mrs Dolores Kelly from the SDLP made the following intervention:

"I was wondering, Mr Principal Deputy Speaker, whether the Member opposite was referring to Gregory Campbell, when he was the Minister for Social Development." — [Official Report, Vol 97, No 1, p55, col 1].

I was never Minister for Social Development. I thank you for the opportunity to correct one of a number of inexactitudes.

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

First of all, I thank the Member for the point of order. Can I inform the Member that that has now been corrected and the record put straight in Hansard?

Private Members' Business

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

The Business Committee has agreed to allow up to one hour and 30 minutes for the debate. Two amendments have been selected and published on the Marshalled List. Fifteen minutes have been added to the total time. The proposer of the motion will have 10 minutes to propose and 10 minutes to make a winding-up speech. The proposer of each amendment will have 10 minutes to propose and five minutes to make a winding-up speech. All other Members who wish to speak will have five minutes.

Before we begin, the House should note that the amendments are mutually exclusive. If amendment No 1 is made, the Question will not be put on amendment No 2. As a valid petition of concern was presented on Monday 8 September in relation to the motion, the vote will be on a cross-community basis.

Nelson McCausland (DUP, Belfast North)

I beg to move

That this Assembly notes with grave concern the remarks made by the Druids and the leading of young people in pro-IRA chanting at the recent Ardoyne Fleadh; and calls for all public funding to be withdrawn from the Ardoyne Fleadh event.

The Ardoyne Fleadh is an event that has been running for a number of years, and, over that period, it has received very substantial public funding. Indeed, if one goes back to the era of direct rule, one sees that it was one of a small number of festivals that received very substantial public funding. There were issues about the inequality of the funding mechanism at that time that some of us raised.

This year, in particular, the fleadh has come very much to the fore and has received extensive headline coverage in our newspapers, particularly because of some comments that were made on the final night of the event by one of the participants. Those comments were then posted on YouTube. For those who are not regular attenders there, the final night of the Ardoyne Fleadh is very much the culmination and climax of the event at the end of the week. It is usually described by the organisers as "the Irish rebel night" or, as one committee member was quoted describing it in a newspaper, "chucky night", which is obviously a reference to the pro-IRA phrase "tiocfaidh ár lá". So it is interesting that the nature of the night is indisputable: it is about support for Irish republicanism, particularly militant, violent republicanism.

It is an extremely popular event. We can see that by the size of the crowd that turns up each year to the grounds of the Holy Cross Primary School. Its pitches are used for the event. It is a popular event that draws people from a wide area. Even if you do not go to it, you can hear it quite easily. If you live in large parts of the Woodvale and Shankill area, in Ballysillan or in upper Ardoyne at Glenbryn, you can sit in your house and hear the event because of the level of amplification. As I said, this year, it reached a wider audience because it is now on YouTube.

Let us start by looking at the comments that were made by that individual. The group are the Druids, from Kildare. They claim to be Ireland's number-one live rebel band: I will not argue with that. Their lead singer, Mick O'Brien, told the Ardoyne crowd — I will abbreviate some of his terminology, although he did not abbreviate; he used the full form of it — that it is about time that the British Army and their Orange comrades all effed away back to England. His statement was racist and sectarian, and so was the action of the crowd. Their reaction was to cheer those comments and to roar out their approval of what he had said. After that, the crowd sang a song that begins with the line:

"Go on home British soliders, go on home.

Have you got no" —

I have removed the next word —

"homes of your own?"

Clearly, it is a group that specialises in high-quality literature and lyrics. It also includes such memorable lines as:

"So" —

I have removed the next word again —

"your Union Jack, we want our country back."

I think we get a picture of the sort of music, lyrics and songs.

If you are not familiar with the group, you can also sample on YouTube one of the other songs in its repertoire, 'The Sniper's Promise', which is about an IRA man picking up his Armalite rifle and shooting a British soldier. The reason why I mention that is that we are not talking here about songs about 1916 or songs that go back to the 17th century, the 18th century or 100 years ago; we are talking about songs that relate to the recent Troubles and to the terrorist campaign inflicted on this land by the IRA. One of the other bands, Fianna, were the authors or co-writers of a song called 'New Lodge Pride' about the Provisional IRA in the New Lodge area. Of course, they would be well known to members of Sinn Féin because they advertise themselves as having appeared at the party's ard fheis to perform those sorts of songs. They also say that they appear regularly at Sinn Féin events. It is clear that audience participation is a key element in this. One can pick up in the media, on YouTube and so on people shouting things like "Ooh aah, up the Ra" and other similar sentiments. So, we are clear about the type of event that we are talking about.

If that is the case, is it the sort of event that should be funded by DCAL? Should it be funded by the Community Relations Council? Is this what public money should be spent on? I suggest that Irish rebel music of the type that was performed that night promotes sectarianism, endorses violence and romanticises the IRA. That is what it is about. The issue is not the comments of one individual, which lasted for a matter of minutes, but the entire programme on that night. It is the climax, the culmination, the final event of the night. In fact, for many people, it is the most important part of the fleadh. It is certainly integral to the fleadh. It is advertised in the programme. It is organised by the organising committee that books the acts. The committee knows what it is booking and what it is getting. They have heard these people before. Yet, there it is, in receipt of public money. It is not something extraneous. It is not something peripheral. It is central; it is core; it is essential to the fleadh. Therein lies the problem when it comes to giving public money to that type of event.

I want to pick up on a comment made in response to that evening by the Culture Minister, Ms Ní Chuilín. There was a dissident republican shooting a short distance away on the night. She said that it was terrible that there had been a dissident republican shooting, because people were at the concert enjoying their culture. I suggest that there is a connection between the two. It is the culture of such songs and the ethos of that sort of event that help to encourage people into the ranks of the dissidents. Such songs validate the use of the gun and the use of murder. Therefore, how can you, on the one hand, say, "That's great. That's the culture to be celebrated" and, on the other hand, condemn people a short distance away for doing almost the very thing that the groups there are singing about?

There are three issues. First, there is an issue and a question for the fleadh committee and a question, too, for nationalist and republican politicians from the SDLP and Sinn Féin. This is the sort of thing that one might expect from Sinn Féin, but the SDLP has backed the fleadh. I assume that some Members from the SDLP have signed the petition of concern; there certainly are not enough Members from Sinn Féin to do that on their own, so somebody other than Sinn Féin has signed the petition of concern. Is it not time for the fleadh to move on? Is it not time for Northern Ireland to move on? If Northern Ireland is moving on, is it right that this sort of event should be supported with public money? That is the question for the fleadh committee and nationalist politicians: is it not time to move on?

There are also questions for the funders, such as DCAL and the Community Relations Council, and the sponsors. Those questions need to be pursued with those individuals over the next number of months until we get to the bottom of exactly what was applied for, what conditions were attached to the grants and sponsorship, whether those people think that there have been any breaches of those conditions and whether there should be any future funding for this type of event. That is a question for DCAL, the Community Relations Council and the sponsors, including Ladbrokes.

William Humphrey (DUP, Belfast North)

I am grateful to the Member for giving way. Does he agree that questions also have to be answered by CCMS and the trustees of Holy Cross boys' school? I do not think that any comment has been made about the continuation of that school facility being used for such hate-filled events.

Nelson McCausland (DUP, Belfast North)

I thank the Member for his question, which is indeed the third point that I am going to make. The rebel night takes place on the Holy Cross boys' school pitch. Therefore, there is this question for the school governors: is this in keeping with the ethos of your school premises? Roman Catholic schools — maintained schools — have a Catholic ethos. Is this sort of thing in keeping with that ethos? If it is not, it should not happen on pitches that are the property of the school. The question for them is this: will you continue to make your school property available for such rebel nights? There are questions for the organisers and the politicians, questions for the funders —

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

Will the Member bring his remarks to a close?

Nelson McCausland (DUP, Belfast North)

— and questions for the school. Those questions deserve an answer. I encourage the Assembly to back the motion and pursue the matter. If we are to move Northern Ireland forward, this is not the way to do it.

Jim Allister (Traditional Unionist Voice, North Antrim)

I beg to move amendment No 1:

Insert after first "Fleadh;":

"deplores the lack of action by the investigative and prosecuting authorities in respect of the criminal offence of incitement to hatred;".

I concur largely if not entirely — I think, in fact, that I concur entirely — with what the proposer of the motion said about this matter. It was quite a shocking incident. It may be acceptable to some who for years have wallowed in that sort of "Brits out" approach, with all the attendant force and violence that they gave to that message, but, across Northern Ireland, I think that many right-thinking people were aghast when they viewed it on YouTube. They were aghast at the virulence of the wording, at how it was delivered and at the deliberate whipping-up of the young crowd into a frenzy. That being so, I found it amazing that the police and the prosecuting authorities took such a sanguine attitude and that, within days of the complaint by Councillor Jolene Bunting and others, they had dismissed the matter, sought to sweep it under the carpet and decreed that there would be no prosecution. It begs the question: what is the law of the land supposed to be on these issues? The law of the land on these issues is supposed to be set out in the Public Order (Northern Ireland) Order 1987, which states:

"A person who uses threatening, abusive or insulting words or behaviour ... is guilty of an offence if—

(a)he intends thereby to stir up hatred or arouse fear; or

(b)having regard to all the circumstances hatred is likely to be stirred up or fear is likely to be aroused thereby."

That is often characterised as incitement to hatred, which, of course, had its origins in a 1970 Act.

Let us think about those words. Think about the words that were used by a member of the Druids:

"It's about time that they got all their Orange comrades together."

That is an all-embracing classification of anyone of the Orange tradition. He also said:

"It's about time that they loaded up the bus, and it's about time that they all effed off back to England where they came from."

I have to say this, Mr Speaker: I did not come from England, and many people who would be categorised as "Orange comrades" by these nefarious folk did not come from England. We were born here, live here and are entitled and determined to stay here. The suggestion that we should eff off back to England is not just "insulting", which is one of the words of the Act, but threatening and abusive. I think that the first test of whether the words used were "threatening, abusive or insulting" is demonstrably met when you think of those words.

The second limb of the test is whether, having regard to the circumstances, hatred was likely to be stirred up. I think that you got the answer to that when you watched on YouTube the whipped-up frenzy of those to whom the words were addressed — those who were wallowing and rejoicing in the hatred that those words stirred up.

I have to say that I find it amazing that the police, faced with a complaint, simply wanted to wipe it under the carpet, whereas their obligation was to investigate the complaint. How can you investigate a complaint of incitement to hatred, when the words were so demonstrably abusive, threatening and insulting, without seeking to interview those who had uttered those words?

Immediately, there was reasonable suspicion of the commission of an offence — obviously, there had to be reasonable suspicion of the commission of an offence. Immediately that arose, there was a duty and an obligation to arrest and to interview. It is by interviewing that you then put to the test somewhat whether there was intent to stir up hatred. It is beyond doubt that someone who used words of that nature required to be taxed in interview about what they thought they were doing, what they intended by what they were saying and what they thought the likely consequences were.

It is not the easiest offence in the world to get a conviction on, given the requirement for intent to stir up hatred, but it no longer is just that. The law also provides that, if, having regard to all the circumstances, hatred is likely to be stirred up, that is enough. I find it astounding that the police did not even interview and did not even seek to arrest but rushed to say, "No action on this matter".

As for the Chief Constable, when there was a little controversy, he said, "Oh, we can very quickly put a file together and send it to the DPP". No, they cannot. A file properly constructed on this issue would require an arrest, an interview and the inclusion of that interview. It cannot simply be wrapped up and thrown into the DPP to give us the answer that we are looking for.

I think that this rankles so much with so many people in, to use their language, "the Orange community" because, in recent times, many in the loyalist community have witnessed the enthusiasm — the relentless enthusiasm — with which, for example, some flag protesters were pursued. Take some of the people prominent in that. Take the case of William Frazer: he may not be everyone's cup of tea in the House but he is a citizen with the same rights as everyone else. He was arrested and charged under the Serious Crime Act 2007, held for weeks in custody, then given bail and arrested twice for an alleged breach of his bail conditions, once upon returning from this Building after attending a debate. He was pursued relentlessly by the PSNI until, 15 months' later, shamefaced, the police had to drop every last charge of a public order nature. Anyone who knows anything about the law knew that the offences were always incapable of sticking in those circumstances.

So where was the parity of approach when it came to dealing with William Frazer, for example, as opposed to the indecent haste with which the Chief Constable and the director wanted to sweep this matter under the carpet? It is because of such contrasting approaches that there is a growing gulf of disrespect, sadly, amongst many in the loyalist community for police and police actions. I have to say that the police have stoked that situation by —

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

Will the Member bring his remarks to a close?

Jim Allister (Traditional Unionist Voice, North Antrim)

— their approach to this matter. It is deplorable that there was a failure to take adequate investigative and prosecutory steps.

Chris Lyttle (Alliance, Belfast East)

I beg to move amendment No 2:

Leave out all after first "Fleadh;" and insert:

"denounces sectarianism of any kind; and calls on the Executive to work to ensure that all publicly funded events remain free from sectarianism or hatred of any kind and to implement measures to ensure such events remain open and shared for everyone.".

I regret that it is necessary for us to devote such a length of time of Assembly attention to the actions of one individual, albeit that they were extremely sectarian, ignorant and misguided, especially when the Assembly has so much serious work on social and economic issues to be getting on with to demonstrate clearly that it is fit for purpose for the public and the wider community in Northern Ireland.

It is, however, an important opportunity for us to send out a clear and united condemnation in response to these actions. Sectarianism or discrimination of any kind is a poison that divides and blights our community. We believe that our amendment presents an opportunity for the Assembly to make a clear, united condemnation of these particular actions.

Indeed, it is also an opportunity for us to acknowledge the widespread and real anger across our community from people of all different backgrounds at the sheer recklessness of the sectarian language that the Druids band used at Ardoyne Fleadh, especially in that particular context, where community tension is heightened. This has the potential to cause real damage to community relations in the area. It has also, unfortunately, given somewhat due cause to those who would perpetuate fears, which I would not agree with, around cultural war being waged. Unfortunately, it has also caused real confusion about how the offending words did not constitute an offence of using words or actions with the intent of inciting hatred.

On those grounds, I sought assurances from the PSNI that it would rigorously pursue all alleged hate crime without fear or favour of anyone. Indeed, I welcome that the PSNI has submitted a file to the PPS and DPP to respond to. Hopefully, we will get an adequate explanation of whether this meets the test for prosecution. I think that it is regrettable that Mr Allister has used this situation to table an inaccurate amendment that does not accurately reflect the PSNI's actions on this issue. Indeed, it is a deplorable act to bring into any disrepute the impartiality of the PSNI in upholding the rule of law in our community.

I think that it is also regrettable —

Alban Maginness (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast North)

Will the Member give way?

Chris Lyttle (Alliance, Belfast East)

Yes, I will.

Alban Maginness (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast North)

I am quite surprised by Mr Allister's remarks today, but they parallel the remarks made by Mr Poots, and we all note the very vigorous reaction by the Lord Chief Justice.

Chris Lyttle (Alliance, Belfast East)

I thank the Member for his intervention. I think that the clear message is that we respect the impartiality of the PSNI and the judiciary and the role that they have to play in upholding the rule of law and order in our community as a bedrock for us to build on community relations here.

Jim Allister (Traditional Unionist Voice, North Antrim)

Will the Member give way?

Chris Lyttle (Alliance, Belfast East)

I will give way briefly.

Jim Allister (Traditional Unionist Voice, North Antrim)

Is the Member seriously contending that either the judiciary or the PSNI are above criticism? Has it not always been the case that, in any democratic society, there is a right of citizens to criticise the decisions of the judiciary and the PSNI, which is quite different from challenging the validity of the institutions?

Chris Lyttle (Alliance, Belfast East)

Yes. I absolutely recognise the right to criticise, but with that right comes a responsibility to be accurate in that criticism. Unfortunately, Mr Allister's amendment does not, in my opinion, accurately reflect the actions of the PSNI in this case.

I also think that it is unfortunate that we have an imbalanced condemnation — it is pick-and-mix condemnation at times — of acts of sectarianism. Indeed, a quote from Herbert Butterfield that was brought to my attention comes to mind for some of these situations. He said that the greatest menace to our community is the conflict between large groups of self-righteousness, each only too glad that the sins of the other give it pretext for still deeper hatred. I also heard someone saying recently that sectarianism thrives when people are actually alike, as people need to manufacture difference for their own ends.

I fear that we are getting into that territory in relation to some of these cases. It is about time that we focused on a sensible response to these issues. Yes, I agree, as Mr McCausland put forward, that we have to examine what the preconditions were in relation to public funding for events where these types of sectarianism occur. We need to see whether there have been breaches and, absolutely, people need to be held to account.

Indeed, I welcome comments from the organisers, who wholeheartedly —

William Humphrey (DUP, Belfast North)

Will the Member give way?

Chris Lyttle (Alliance, Belfast East)

I will just finish this point quickly — who wholeheartedly clarified that those actions did not reflect their vision or aspirations for their community festival. That is helpful. We need to examine the preconditions to see whether breaches were made.

That is what Mr McCausland said. Unfortunately, however, his motion goes further than his contribution today. It suggests that all public funding should be withdrawn for the entire event, penalising everyone with good intentions to promote positive cultural expression. That goes too far, and our amendment presents an opportunity to correct that.

William Humphrey (DUP, Belfast North)

I am grateful to the Member for giving way. Given what was said by the Druids, after a long list, as Mr McCausland said, of speeches like that being made on the final night, the rebel night, of this fleadh, does the Alliance Party believe that there were serious breaches that CRC, DCAL and other funders need to look at?

Chris Lyttle (Alliance, Belfast East)

That is exactly what I just said. I have made it clear that it is wholeheartedly to be condemned. The words were reckless, sectarian, ignorant and misguided. I do not think that I can be clearer than that, and there absolutely is a task for people to examine how that may or may not have breached conditions.

However, the Assembly, the Executive and the Office of the First Minister and deputy First Minister need to take responsibility in order to tackle the root causes of sectarianism in our community. Where is the Together: Building a United Community strategy? What impact and actions does that have? What investments are being rolled out?

In that area of north Belfast an exciting, effective, cross-community project has been taking place between Holy Cross and Edenderry nurseries called a buddy system, which is bringing young children, and men and women, from interface communities, together in a real and meaningful way. The project is bridging divides, tackling sectarianism and promoting a shared future in that area, yet it is struggling for funding, despite buddy systems being an explicit target of the Together: Building a United Community strategy. No funding and no clear message from OFMDFM as to how such an effective programme is to be continued.

That, for me, is the real travesty that we should be talking about today. Those are the types of issues that the Assembly should be working on. Those are the types of issues that the media and the biggest show in the country should be giving airtime to: to the people who are working at grassroots level to improve community relations and who are struggling for long-term, sustainable funding to have a meaningful impact to ensure that this type of isolated, ignorant sectarianism is a thing of the past.

We absolutely agree that measures should be implemented to robustly tackle this type of sectarianism, but we must also take responsibility to ensure that the context is there for a truly safe and shared society to be built in order for all events to be open and welcoming for all. I will give way.

Roy Beggs (UUP, East Antrim)

The Member indicated that he could not support Mr Allister's amendment because of its inaccuracies. Can you explain in what way it is inaccurate? Would he not agree that, if such an investigation were carried out, it would prevent further actions from occurring elsewhere?

Chris Lyttle (Alliance, Belfast East)

I thank the Member for his intervention. Again, however, I think that I made that clear already. Assurances were sought from the PSNI and the Chief Constable that all alleged hate crime would be rigorously and robustly investigated. We received assurances that that has been the case and that a file will be submitted to the PPS.

It is unlike Mr Allister to commit this type of error where, clearly, the amendment was submitted prior to those assurances being received. The honourable thing would have been to retire the amendment, but Mr Allister has used this opportunity to put forward his views, which are well known to the community.

There is an opportunity for the Assembly to make a clear, united response condemning a seriously sectarian action and to support a united way of moving forward.

Gerry Kelly (Sinn Féin, Belfast North)

Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. Beidh mé ag labhairt in aghaidh an phríomh-rúin. I will be speaking against the motion and amendment No 1, but we are prepared to support amendment No 2 from the Alliance Party.

It might be worth starting off by saying what I think we can all agree on: the remarks about Orangemen were not only wrong but offensive and insulting, and they should not have happened. I, as a republican, have spent a lifetime trying to get British soldiers out of Ireland, so I will not be hypocritical on that aspect of it. I would be less than honest if I did that. However, let me emphasise that I would not articulate it in the same way as the individual did on that night.

It is important to say that the person who spoke for the Druids on the stage does not speak for anyone but themselves. In a statement made almost immediately after, the chair of the fleadh said:

"We regret any offence caused by this incident. It was wrong, regrettable, disappointing and should not have happened. These comments do not reflect the views of the organisers or the people of Ardoyne."

He went on to say:

"The organising committee will be reviewing guidelines in relation to performers and acts to ensure this does not happen again."

So, action was taken immediately.

Nelson McCausland said that the fleadh has been going on a long time. It has been going on something like 24 years. I think that it is worth saying that it is there to celebrate culture in a positive way. That is what it was set up for, and that is what it continues to do. It is there as an alternative to bonfires, for instance, and the negativity and antisocial behaviour that they produce. I have to say that it has been very successful in doing that. Of course, we have just come through one of the most peaceful summers that any of us can remember. I think that, to put this in context, we need to remember all of that. This is a very successful alternative to what we have faced in previous summers.

The Ardoyne people are a very proud and law-abiding people, and, of course, the fleadh is a cross-community grouping. Nelson McCausland, who was here earlier, was one of the first unionist politicians whom I remember sitting with me on a panel on the Ardoyne Fleadh to debate these things. The fleadh has always reached out and tried to bring in other people from outside the area to hear their points of view, and that continued this year.

The motion calls for a collective punishment. People across the Chamber have got up many times and argued against collective punishment, collective condemnation and all of that, yet the motion is full of that. I think that we have to be careful that we do not get too high on the horse.

Are unionists here going to argue that the money for bonfires should be taken away because of the sectarianism that we see at some of them, or even that those particular bonfires should be banned on that basis? There is funding that goes to bonfires as well. Are they arguing that, if bands sing sectarian songs, all the funding should be taken away from bands, or even from those particular bands? I have never heard that from the unionists before. Are they going to take funding away from those particular bands because of what someone may have said? There are plenty of sectarian comments made in bands. Are they arguing for collective punishment for that?

Orange Order figures have made sectarian remarks. Should the whole of the Orange Order be punished because of someone who says such things? I would hope that some of the people across the Floor would condemn some of the remarks made on those occasions.

So, it is the issue of communal punishment that I entirely disagree with. Of course, the examples that I have given are not even comparable with the Druids. The Druids are a band that were invited here. The organisers are going to review guidelines. The Druids had nothing to do with organising the fleadh and are not involved on —

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

I ask the Member to bring his remarks to a close.

Gerry Kelly (Sinn Féin, Belfast North)

— the fleadh's committee. I would argue that we should not do that and that people should take a more sensible approach to this. Yes, it was wrong. Yes, it should not have happened. The fleadh serves the people well on a cross-community basis.

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

The Member's time is gone.

Gerry Kelly (Sinn Féin, Belfast North)

William Humphrey will know that the Hammer and the youth club in Ardoyne do many things together.

Alban Maginness (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast North)

First of all, it is a bit rich for Nelson McCausland to be criticising sectarianism. There have been many instances in north Belfast when there have been acts of sectarianism on the part of the Orange and on the part of loyalists that have either been ignored by Mr McCausland or, indeed, have resulted in equivocal comments. I think that it is a bit rich, and I think that the people of Ardoyne and north Belfast will recognise that.

I think that Mr Allister should know better, particularly in relation to his remark that the police and the PPS have swept this issue under the carpet. That is an unacceptable comment by him and it undermines faith and confidence in the PPS and the PSNI. I believe that all of us have a duty to support the PSNI and the PPS. I do not suggest at all that it should be done in a slavish way; there is room for robust criticism but not for undermining the institutions of the PPS and the PSNI in the exercise of their duties. I believe that they carried out a proper investigation into this matter. If there is to be any change —

William Humphrey (DUP, Belfast North)

Will the Member give way?

Alban Maginness (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast North)

I will take you in a moment.

If there is to be any change in relation to this investigation, let it be and we will deal with the consequence of that.

William Humphrey (DUP, Belfast North)

I thank the Member for giving way. Will he agree that, clearly, when the police prepared the first file that went to the PPS, what he said was done was simply not done? I have doubts that it was done on the second occasion.

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

The Member has a minute added on to his time.

Alban Maginness (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast North)

Thank you very much. I do not know the detail of the file that was presented. I do not know the ins and outs of that, but I know that the police, in coming to their decision not to prosecute in this instance, took the advice of the PPS. That is clearly stated by the PSNI and the PPS. Indeed, in a public statement, the Director of Public Prosecutions said that it did not meet the threshold for prosecution. We have to accept that the director carries out his duties in an impartial fashion, and we have to accept that the police carry out their duties in an impartial fashion. If we do not accept that, where are we? We verge on anarchy.

Jim Allister (Traditional Unionist Voice, North Antrim)

Will the Member give way?

Alban Maginness (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast North)

No, I am not going to accept you. You made your point twice. The Member should reconsider what he said and, in fact, withdraw it because I think it causes serious damage for a public representative and learned counsel to make the statement that he made.

I agree entirely with the forthright statement made by the fleadh organising committee. Remember that they are volunteers and people who work for nothing. They work for the community because they see a value — [Interruption.]

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

Order, Members.

Alban Maginness (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast North)

They see a value in developing and enriching the community and helping young people, and part of their function is to create a cross-community interaction. Many young people from the Shankill Road, for example, have been invited to fleadh events. In June, there was a sleepover by young people in the open air to highlight the problems of homelessness in Belfast. That was a very positive thing and is the type of thing that they do. It is done on a cross-community basis. The fleadh committee have said, in a very forthright manner, that they did not accept the remarks. They said they regretted any offence caused by a sectarian comment made at the concert on Sunday night:

"It was wrong, regrettable, disappointing and should not have happened."

There could not be a more forthright condemnation by the fleadh committee, and I think that it is important for Members to take that on board. They further said:

"These comments do not reflect the views of the organisers or the people of Ardoyne".

I believe that that is an accurate statement. I also believe that the fleadh committee have taken on board the challenges that have arisen out of this incident. They said that they will be:

"reviewing guidelines in relation to performers and acts to ensure this does not happen again."

Finally, withdrawing all public funding for this series of events — this valuable community enterprise — would effectively punish everybody. It is a punitive step. It is disproportionate —

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

The Members should bring his remarks to a close.

Alban Maginness (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast North)

— and it should not happen. I believe that the people who organise this event should be encouraged and not condemned. They have taken the right steps to remedy something that was wrong.

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

I call Mr Ross Hussey.

Ross Hussey (UUP, West Tyrone)

Permission to remain seated, Mr Speaker.

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

Yes.

Ross Hussey (UUP, West Tyrone)

Thank you. Living as we do in the United Kingdom, we are fortunate to be allowed what in some countries would be regarded as the luxury of the right to free speech. We can criticise the Government, we can criticise politicians and we can expect the law to represent us all without fear or favour. I believe that Mr Allister got it right in proposing his amendment, which:

"deplores the lack of action by the investigative and prosecuting authorities in respect of the criminal offence of incitement to hatred",

because we are entitled to protection under the law.

With that right to free speech we must also accept that there is a limit to what we can say publicly. In our society, we cannot decide to launch attacks on somebody simply because of their political affiliation, their religion, their race, their nationality or their gender. We have a duty as politicians to criticise those who launch offensive statements in public, because nobody is above the law.

I can trace my Irish roots back many generations through my mother's family and have no problem calling myself Irish. I was born in Omagh, and I am as Irish as anyone on this island. But I am a British citizen, the proud son of a Welshman — an ex-serviceman who fought for his country during the Second World War — and the grandson of a Ballybay-born British soldier who served from 1905 until 1926. There are many alive today because of the fine work of British soldiers who served here throughout the Troubles and because of the bravery of soldiers stationed here, who have responded to emergency calls when suspect devices have been abandoned by dissidents and bombs have been brought into towns and cities by those cowards.

My preamble is important because of the odious remarks made by an odious man who sings with an Irish republican group known as the Druids. I had not heard of that group before the fleadh, but I know of it now. The lead singer of the group uttered the words:

"there are still over 5,000 British soldiers parading around the streets of Ireland ... It's about time they took down their little Union Jacks, it's about time they got all their Orange comrades together, its about time they loaded up the bus and it's about time they all"

— returned —

"back to England where they came from."

He did not use the word "returned" but another word, which I do not intend to use because you might regard it as unparliamentary.

I am an Orangeman, I am a British citizen and, as I have said, I have the right to live peacefully in Northern Ireland, a state that is recognised in international law. The comments made by that lead singer were racist, sectarian and offensive, and the person who uttered them and his colleagues certainly did not benefit from one black penny of public money.

Some have said that the people of Ardoyne did not support those comments. The roars, cheers and yahoos that went up following those statements are an indication of what the people who were there thought. Had those comments been responded to by stony silence, you could say that the people of Ardoyne did not support them. They were not met with stony silence. They were met with cheers and roars of approval. Sectarianism, racism and sexism are all wrong, but those people shamed the fleadh and its organisers.

My understanding of the Irish language is virtually non-existent, but I understand that "fleadh" means "festival". They are very much part of the Irish culture and, generally, are warmly received in the community, but the Druids brought shame on themselves and on Ardoyne with this vitriolic outburst.

I am not from England; I am from Tyrone. No republican has the right to suggest that I leave my birthplace because I choose British citizenship. Again, it must be remembered that the 5,000 soldiers referred to are here because we are part of the United Kingdom. That we are part of the United Kingdom is accepted by everybody in the Chamber, so we have the right to have British soldiers stationed in this part of the United Kingdom. As I said, those soldiers have provided a service. They have been present and have defused bombs left in republican areas by dissident republicans. Who would do that, if the British soldiers all went home and took their Union flags with them?

Finally, I am disappointed that some have decided to sign a petition of concern. We have had very many debates in this place about petitions of concern. I am concerned that, by signing a petition of concern, the Assembly can be seen as supporting the caustic remarks of this band. They were wrong —

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

Will the Member bring his remarks to a close?

Ross Hussey (UUP, West Tyrone)

There is no justification for blocking the House from making a reasonable conclusion. There should be a penalty for them as a lesson to others to ensure that any act that they book complies with common decency.

Alex Easton (DUP, North Down)

Many Members of the Assembly and the wider public have been left shocked, hurt and bewildered by the comments made at the Ardoyne Fleadh on Sunday 24 August by a member of the Druids who said to the audience that British soldiers in Ireland should get together with their orange comrades and go back to England. I do not want to use the other word that was included. In fact, I could not believe what I heard, and I actually had to play the YouTube video three times just to make sure that I heard what I heard. Those comments are a disgrace. As a member of the Orange Order, am I being told that I have to go and live in England? If you are one of the 5,000 soldiers based in Northern Ireland, are you seriously being told that, even though many of those soldiers are bomb disposal officers who are busy on a daily basis risking their life to deal with real bombs and hoaxes left by so-called dissident republicans? I do not believe that that is right. If I were to make comments of a similar nature about the Ancient Order of Hibernians or Irish citizens, Members from the Benches across the way would be calling for my head, and I believe that I would be prosecuted for those comments.

David McIlveen (DUP, North Antrim)

I thank the Member for giving way. Just on that point, the Member will recall that, a number of months ago, we took a lecture from the deputy First Minister around how issues in east Belfast had been handled — in essence, issues about people saying that foreign nationals should go home. Would you agree, Mr Easton, that the deputy First Minister should come to the Chamber and explain why he is being so hypocritical in allowing his signature to go on a petition of concern that effectively blocks a motion that is about the same thing?

Alex Easton (DUP, North Down)

I thank the Member for his intervention. I wholeheartedly agree with his comments. Maybe the deputy First Minister needs to come and explain himself.

The Community Relations Council supported this year's Ardoyne Fleadh by means of a £5,000 grant towards infrastructure costs and marketing. The grant was subject to conditions, one of which was that it should be used to support the values and aims of the Community Relations Council. The CRC will be following its usual process in these circumstances by asking the event organisers to respond to the reports to determine whether the conditions of the grant have been complied with.

The purpose of the pathfinder project scheme is to be a mechanism that can respond to needs and address urgent community relations issues. The scheme is aimed primarily at projects that seek to address difficult and contentious issues that require an immediate or innovative response. The scheme can provide support to young people where there is a significant impact on the prevention of community conflict, particularly during key times of community tension. The grant criteria are as follows: to enable groups to provide emergency diversionary activities that reduce the potential for community conflict; to support initiatives that enable immediate dialogue and discussion to take place to address contentious community relations issues; to support programmes that seek to engage with hard-to-reach groups and involve them in community relations activities; to support mediation initiatives that are aimed at addressing key community relations issues that arise unexpectedly; to support information exchange networks between community activists involved in addressing and reducing the potential for community conflict at times of heightened conflict; and to support community safety initiatives aimed to reduce the potential for community violence as a result of civil unrest. They were not to lead young people in bigoted, pro-IRA chanting and the incitement of sectarianism at a music festival.

It was also reported that the event could be heard from the Shankill and that the volume was turned up considerably at around midnight. People could clearly hear the pro-IRA songs and chanting in their homes. That was not only provocative but particularly distressing for the elderly residents and people who live in those areas. The fact that these comments were made in an interface area where people are trying to build cross-community relationships has made this even more difficult.

In my opinion, the PPS has let us down greatly by failing to prosecute for these words. The DPP should also be ashamed for defending the "no prosecutions" ruling. We are supposed to be living in a country of peace with a shared future and equality. I am beginning to have doubts that we are. I fail to see the equality that is said to exist in this country when a band makes comments about soldiers going home and Orange members going to live in England.

I feel that the decision needs to be reviewed and future funding withdrawn from sectarian-fuelled events such as the Ardoyne Fleadh, which simply promotes hatred towards the Protestant, unionist and loyalist people. The funders were the Department of Foreign Affairs in the Republic of Ireland, DCAL, the Community Relations Council, Atlantic Philanthropies, Flax Trust and Ladbrokes. I will be personally writing to them to bring to their attention what was said at the fleadh and ask whether they are happy to have their money spent in this way.

What future do our young people have when they are being brought up and taught to hate in this way through the actions of this band? I was born in Northern Ireland, and nobody is going to tell me to move to England. I am here to stay, and so is my community.

Cathal Ó hOisín (Sinn Féin, East Londonderry)

Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. Beidh mé ag labhairt in aghaidh an phríomh-rúin agus an chéad leasaithe agus ar son an dara ceann. I will speak against the motion and the first amendment but for the second amendment.

Fleadh Ard Eoin is like many other community festivals that have taken place over many years, often in very challenging circumstances. Indeed, Fleadh Ard Eoin has been going for 24 years now. It has attracted thousands of people from every community over the years and has enjoyed participation from all hues of political and religious opinion and none. The programme contained over 70 events that took place over the five days of the fleadh.

What happened this year at one particular performance was the subject of an investigation. Sectarian and racist comments at any event are wrong. Sectarianism at any musical or cultural event has no place.

Trevor Clarke (DUP, South Antrim)

You say that sectarianism is wrong. Would you then say that the comments of the act at that event were sectarian and were wrong?

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

The Member has an extra minute.

Cathal Ó hOisín (Sinn Féin, East Londonderry)

Thank you, a Cheann Comhairle. I was going to get to that further on, if you had waited.

The implication that the Orange Order, with its unique origins on this island, should go home contains the same implication as the so-called 'Famine Song' contains, which says that many Scottish people of Irish origin should return to this island forthwith. Both are wrong. That said, republicans have a right to strive for a united Ireland and the peaceful removal of over 5,000 British Army personnel from this island. This can now be done peacefully and democratically.

The motion calls for the removal of funding from the fleadh because of this unfortunate and widely condemned incident. It was widely condemned by the Minister and by the organisers. Will those who tabled the motion also call for funded loyalist bands to halt playing provocative tunes outside places of worship or breaking Parades Commission determinations?

Over 20 years ago, I was in Germany — East Germany, to be exact — and I was out with a group of German friends of mine. We turned a wrong corner and were met by some graffiti that read, "Deutschland ist Deutschland. Ausländer ‘raus". Roughly translated, it means, "Germany is Germany. Outsiders out".

I saw my friends' hearts drop. I saw the disappointment, anger and concern in their faces, because they belong to a generation whose parents came through the worst excesses of the Third Reich. I had that same feeling years ago, when I saw, in this city and across parts of this island, signs such as "Poles out" or "blacks out". I put that in the same category as seeing "kill all Taigs" or "kill all Huns". I abhor that and think that the burning of national flags, of whatever colour, religious symbols or political materials, including election posters, is wrong. I condemn it and wish that others would do the same.

In south Derry, we saw a coded message come across that contained the numbers five, seven, one, one. It took some time to work out —

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

Order. The Member will know that I give some latitude in and around the business of the House, but I am afraid that the Member just might be moving away from the motion.

Cathal Ó hOisín (Sinn Féin, East Londonderry)

Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. I was trying to make the point that there are many places across this island, and particularly in the North, where there are issues with symbolic flags, parades and offensive language. I do not want to single out any, but some that I experienced this summer included Carrick, Coleraine, Limavady, Larne and elsewhere. We were told all summer that Derry was different, and, to a certain extent, it was. However, we saw the ritual burning of flags, symbols and emblems at a number of events in Derry, and there was no condemnation. To use a biblical reference: there are some who look for a speck in others' eyes while missing the beam in their own.

Nelson McCausland said that it was time to move on, but that requires leadership on all our parts. The motion also states that it is time to stop funding. I just wonder what criteria could be applied to that. I therefore refute the motion and the first amendment and call for support for the second amendment.

Jim Wells (DUP, South Down)

Imagine a state-controlled school being used for a loyalist band concert and several thousand people, perhaps some a bit the worse for drink, listened to speeches calling for all the Hibernians and all the Irish to get out of Northern Ireland and go back to where they came from, to go and live in the Irish Republic. No one would regard that as an acceptable comment. There would be an outcry. The police would be in like a shot. There would be an investigation. The DPP would rush to scrutinise the file and ensure that those responsible were prosecuted.

Gregory Campbell (DUP, East Londonderry)

I thank the Member for giving way. I am glad that he used that analogy, which was accurate and to the point here, because people are talking about music being played where it should not be. This was an attack and assertion that people should leave where they were born and where they live, and it was used in the context of a hate-filled speech. Does the Member agree with me that not only is the analogy that he paints correct but the condemnation, welcome as it is, needs to be followed now by action to ensure that it does not happen again?

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

The Member has an added minute.

Jim Wells (DUP, South Down)

Of course, the only way that that action can mean anything is if public money is withdrawn from this so-called cross-community Ardoyne festival.

There would have been an immediate reaction. Let us be honest with everyone here today —

William Humphrey (DUP, Belfast North)

I thank the Member for giving way. As someone who can hear from his home the bile and hate that comes from the last night — the rebel night — at the fleadh, I assure him and the House that the last night at the Ardoyne Fleadh is in no way a cross-community event. No one could seriously argue that that is the case.

Jim Wells (DUP, South Down)

Indeed, the honourable Member for North Belfast is absolutely correct. What let the cat out of the bag on this occasion was the electronic media. This has been going on for years, but there has never been the evidence to prove it. Unfortunately, the Druids, who, I understand, are from the Irish Republic, rather misjudged the situation and put on their website material that they put to people in that school. Therefore, the cat was out of the bag, and we got a real sense of what the Ardoyne festival is.

Let us look at this so-called cross-community event. It was launched in a GAA club. Well, that is bound to have attracted a lot of the area's minority Protestant community. It was launched in a GAA club and lauded by 'An Phoblacht', the IRA newspaper. It had that well-known cross-community band, the Wolfe Tones, which, when they came to Downpatrick, performed one of the most disgraceful concerts ever held in the leisure centre. It was nothing but a front for republican terrorism. So the Wolfe Tones have form. Then, of course, we have the Druids. What did the organisers think that they were doing when they booked the Druids? All you had to do was to go to their website and read it long before the event was held to see exactly what the Druids' raison d'être is. They are a republican nationalist band; they make no bones about it, so you book them for the main event at a so-called cross-community event. The reality is that it has all the similarities of what was going on in west Belfast when a certain lady from south Down used to run it. It was a waste of public money; it was an absolute waste of £5,000 of Community Relations Council money and, of course, DCAL money.

The issue that has not been dealt with adequately this morning is this: what was it doing in a school funded by the taxpayer? I have never been to Holy Cross Boys' Primary School, but why on earth was a concert of that nature held in a state-funded primary school? Can you imagine if that happened in any state-controlled school? There would be pandemonium. The board would have an emergency meeting, those responsible would be told never to let it happen again, and there would be an immediate investigation. Immediately after the event, the honourable Member for North Antrim Mr Mervyn Storey called for the CCMS to investigate. What is happening there? Where is the condemnation from that authority? What is going on? Where was the board of governors? Where was the principal? Where were the staff, when they knew full well what the event was going to be like? There was nothing cross-community that night. There is a minority Protestant community in the Ardoyne, and I am sure that not one of them was at the event. Had they attended, they would have had to leave very quickly because of the bile and hatred being heaped on the Protestant minority in that way.

What is the SDLP playing at? The SDLP, quite rightly, condemn what went on, but it is not prepared to back a motion that has teeth and says, "If you're going to behave like this, you will not receive a penny of public money".

Michael Copeland (UUP, Belfast East)

Will the Member give way?

Jim Wells (DUP, South Down)

Certainly.

Michael Copeland (UUP, Belfast East)

The word "money" has repeatedly raised its head. I understand that the organising committee derives public funds and that it spends them engaging that particular group, which is based in the Irish Republic. I presume that that group did not travel here for free; the group will have received public money. Can we have an assurance or an examination so that, despite what they have done, any public money they received is taxed either in Northern Ireland or in the South? Or was it money paid in a brown paper bag? We do not know.

Jim Wells (DUP, South Down)

Yes. There is, indeed, a need for a full investigation as to where every penny of public money went into that so-called cross-community festival.

Also, Ladbrokes has shops —

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

The Member should bring his remarks to a close.

Jim Wells (DUP, South Down)

— in many parts of Northern Ireland. Is it going to continue to fund what is clearly a sectarian Ardoyne festival, or is it going to pull its money as well? I hope that it does.

Caitriona Ruane (Sinn Féin, South Down)

Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. I support the comments made by my colleagues Gerry Kelly, Cathal Ó hOisín and Alban Maginness, and I distance myself from any comments that are sectarian. As an Irish republican, the Irish republic that I am working to build is an Irish republic of Catholic, Protestant, Dissenter and the new communities that have come to make their homes on our lovely island.

I note the leadership shown by the fleadh committee, and I pay tribute to it. It is very publicly challenging the comments made. I also note the comments from the Benches opposite. It is slightly hypocritical because this is an old agenda. Jim Wells referred to me as the lady from south Down; he did not say my name. Jim Wells and other Members will know that I was the director of Féile an Phobail for a number of years. I was also the chair of the Belfast St Patrick's Carnival. For the years I was involved in both of those, I saw the agenda that many of the people opposite were personally involved in, including Nelson McCausland, as a Belfast city councillor, and other former Ministers from the DUP and the UUP. I noted how often and how consistently they voted against funding for children's festivals if they had an Irish name like Draíocht. I noticed how often they voted against funding for the summer festivals, not just in Ardoyne but in west Belfast, south Belfast, north Belfast, New Lodge — Lóiste Nua — and all the different parts of the city. So let us not pretend that this is not an old, tired agenda.

I join Gerry Kelly, Alban Maginness and Cathal Ó hOisín in stating that good work is done in some of the most disadvantaged areas in the city. The reason that many of those festivals and féilte came into being was to avoid very difficult situations that arose from precisely the toxic mixture of drink, soldiers armed to the teeth, the old RUC, and children and others getting killed by plastic bullets. So, what happened? These festivals changed the dynamic in the city, and the least that I ask people on the opposite Benches to do is to understand that in the same way as I want to support grass-roots festivals in all areas of the city. Indeed, during my time as director of Féile an Phobail, I went out of my way to reach out to the Shankill Festival and all festivals. Also, it is important to put on record that all the festivals are reaching out, trying to work together and trying to deal with some very difficult issues. So, let us get real about the funding of féilte and festivals throughout the North of Ireland, and let us understand —

Jim Wells (DUP, South Down)

Will the Member give way?

Caitriona Ruane (Sinn Féin, South Down)

I will. I will give way to my colleague from South Down.

Jim Wells (DUP, South Down)

I apologise for calling the honourable Member a lady. Will she accept that, for many years, this concert had form? This is not the first time that the concluding concert at the Ardoyne festival was used to heap militant republican bile upon the Protestant community. It is not the first time; let us hope that it will be the last.

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

The Member has an added minute.

Caitriona Ruane (Sinn Féin, South Down)

I hear the Member's comments, but I have to say that he also has form: making attacks on things to do with Irish culture and language. I think that we all need to understand that we live in a very divided society, so we now need to respect each other's right and celebrate diversity and difference. Also, while we are doing that, remember that many people from different countries, about whom my colleague Cathal Ó hOisín spoke eloquently, are making their home here, and, together, we need to send out messages of welcome and support; not messages of racism and hate. I pledge to work with all of you to build much more intercultural communities in which all feel safe.

Beidh mé ag labhairt in aghaidh an phríomh-rúin agus leasaithe uimhir a haon, ach beidh mé ag tabhairt tacaíochta don leasú ón Alliance Party. I will vote against the motion and amendment No 1, but I will support the Alliance amendment.

Alex Attwood (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast West)

Mr Wells asked:

"What is the SDLP playing at?".

I want to answer that question by, first, acknowledging that I have no doubt that unionism's hurt and upset at what happened are genuine, because the hurt and upset in nationalism at what happened are genuine. I want to put on the record that I accept that Mr Wells is upset, as I was upset and as everybody should be upset. However, the answer to Mr Wells's question is in his speech: he takes this incident and goes down the traditional route of the politics of demonisation. He named the fleadh, the GAA and the CCMS, which is responsible for the school, and demonised each and all of them on the basis of what was not just a reckless remark — I think that it was a deliberate remark by the man in that band — made in response to the people in that hall.

That is what is wrong, Mr Wells, and that is why the SDLP is right. You do not take the comments of that individual and the response of that audience and then demonise those in the fleadh who are well intentioned, or the people in the GAA, the schools estate and the CCMS. That is why we are taking the position that we are taking. You do not demonise the good because of the actions of the bad. That is what is wrong with this debate.

What is also wrong with this debate is that it says to nationalism and republicanism that, when unionism takes offence, its response is disproportionate, calling for withdrawal of funding. It also says that its response is selective, because it does not apply the same standards to other expressions of cultural identity, and it draws the conclusion that all your cultural expression is right and proper and that that of others is somehow in error.

Gregory Campbell (DUP, East Londonderry)

Will the Member give way?

Alex Attwood (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast West)

I will let you in in a second.

That is what Mr Nelson McCausland said. He talked about the recent Troubles inflicted on the country by the IRA — not by the loyalists or by the state; just by the IRA. He talked about the culture of songs and that sort of event, referring to the Druids, without talking about the culture of songs, other events, murals and the sectarianism of other parts of this society. You cannot have the politics of demonisation on one hand and be selective on the other. I will give way.

Gregory Campbell (DUP, East Londonderry)

I thank the Member for giving way. I thought that some of our contributions on this side were trying to show the extent of any similar analogy on the loyalist side, but the Member seems to have missed that. Is this not a rightful condemnation of people who say that the other side should "get out"? That is effectively what the speaker in the Druids band said from the stage — that we, people from Ulster, should leave Ulster and go to England. If anybody says that about people in the Irish Republic, it is equally wrong and to be condemned, and if any action can be taken by the police and the prosecution service, they should do that. Does the Member not see the equality there?

Alex Attwood (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast West)

Yes, I will accept that equality, but if you read the Hansard report, especially Mr McCausland's contribution and especially, unfortunately, that of Mr Wells, you will see demonisation, selective commentary and an incomplete analysis of what the problem was on that night.

What was the problem on that night? One thing that Mr McCausland said, which I partially agreed with, was that it romanticised violence. I accept and agree with that point. That is because, unfortunately, what was said that night and the way that some people responded may be their view of politics and history on this island, but it is not the view of history of the vast majority of people on this island. That is because the violence of the IRA was anti-national and anti-democratic, it was used when there was a constitutional alternative, it divided the people of Ireland more than they ever had been before, and it carried an enormous personal and human cost.

What we need to do in this society is not just walk away from the politics of demonisation and selective condemnation but move away from the politics of revisionism that glorifies the violence of anybody in any uniform who inflicted violence against the wishes of the people of this island. My offence at the event of that night was much less about the man from the Druids and what he said. It was that young people and generations were again being taught that somehow the violence of the few, which was endorsed by 2% of the people and inflicted against the wishes of the people of this island for 40 years, destroyed lives and the ambition of the people of this island, divided the people of this island one from the other and put back unity by many a generation —

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

Will the Member bring his remarks to a close?

Alex Attwood (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast West)

— was legitimate and valid. Those who cheered that night are being led down a false narrative of our history. That is what we should defeat.

Tom Elliott (UUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

We have heard quite a lot today about things that are not relevant to the north Belfast fleadh. We have heard about murals, signs and provocative issues. They are all around Northern Ireland — of course they are — and they have been for generations.

Let me make it clear from the start that I accept that not everything in Northern Ireland is totally integrated. People have their own thoughts and views on issues and have their own particular aspects to celebrate. The fleadh, by and large, would be regarded — I am open to somebody telling me that I am wrong — by the unionist community as a broadly nationalist event just as Orange Order events are accepted as broadly Orange/Protestant/unionist events. Let us be clear about that and have an acceptance of that.

Let us get back to the crux of the particular event in north Belfast at Ardoyne. I have heard here that there has been condemnation from the committee of the fleadh organisers. Let us see how strong that condemnation is. Has the committee withheld the payment that the Druids were due for their appearance? Taking that action would show a real commitment. It would show a real commitment if they guaranteed that the band would not come back to the festival. There is much more that could be done than the condemnation and regret story that the committee has come out with. It must go much deeper than that, because if it does not there will be no confidence from the unionist community — I am trying to be as fair as possible — for any further support or funding.

As Mr Wells indicated, there have probably been actions like this in the past that have not been broadcast. The one thing that I would disagree with Mr Wells on is his view that it was "misjudged". That is a test, because I am not so sure that it was misjudged. How much of it was misjudged and how much of it was deliberate. How much of it was misjudged or deliberate from the Druids? How much of a misjudgement was it for the organisers of the event to invite the Druids, because I am sure that they knew what they were likely to get?

Alban Maginness (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast North)

Will the Member give way?

Tom Elliott (UUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

Yes, I am happy to.

Alban Maginness (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast North)

I quote from the concluding remarks of the public statement by the chair of the committee:

"The organising committee of the Fleadh will be reviewing our guidelines in relation to performers and acts to ensure that this does not happen again."

That is an indication of the intent of the organising committee to take effective action.

Tom Elliott (UUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

I thank the Member for that clarification. However, it does not go far enough: it does not say that they have taken any action against the Druids, it does not say that they will not invite them again, and it does not say that they will ensure that they will not invite bands of a similar nature back to the event. That is why there are a lot of unanswered questions.

I have already put in freedom of information requests to the Community Relations Council and DCAL, asking for information on the applications for funding and on what criteria had to be met. None of that information has yet been forthcoming, but I hope that I will get it in the near future to see whether any criteria were broken. That is a very important issue: if funding is going to an event or an organisation, they need to ensure that they meet the criteria.

Very quickly, I want to move on to Mr Allister's amendment.

Chris Lyttle (Alliance, Belfast East)

I thank the Member for giving way. I appreciate the efforts that he is making to be fair and rational in his contribution. Does he acknowledge that the original motion prejudges the process of the organisations reviewing whether those conditions have been breached. Is he considering supporting the motion?

Tom Elliott (UUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

Of course I am considering supporting the motion, but the reality is that, if there can be a proof otherwise, it is up to the organisers of the event next year to prove it. The burden of proof must go on to the organisers, not the funding body.

I move on quickly to Mr Allister's amendment. It is unfortunate that the police and the Public Prosecution Service made an assessment of only one particular clause in legislation. I have met the Public Prosecution Service, so I have that at first hand. I have explained that I do not believe that they gave a wide enough remit, look and assessment of the legislation itself. We were able to point out a number of potential breaches of legislation. That is up to the Public Prosecution Service and the police to do, if they want to take those points on board. I am pleased that the police have now indicated that there will be a wider investigation and review.

David McNarry (UKIP, Strangford)

I actually received an invitation to this event. Fortunately, I had a prior engagement, but imagine how I would have felt being there, trapped in a crowd belting out hatred against me whilst I sat alongside them. From the footage of the audience participation it is clear to anyone that the audience needed no encouragement to demonstrate hatred. The hatred was obvious, and it came out naturally. It was naked sectarianism — anti-British bile roared with approval by an audience that enjoyed every minute of the abuse directed at soldiers and members of the Orange Order. How on earth was that scene on film anything to do with community relations, when, as a result and as is abundantly clear from this debate, it has set back relations? Funding an outward expression of hatred cannot be the role of the Community Relations Council or any other funder.

I am one of the Orangemen whom the crowd begged to be sent back to England where we came from. Yes, I am a proud unionist, and I recognise the effects, in life lost and limb risked here in my name by those serving in Her Majesty's armed forces — the same Her Majesty whom Martin McGuinness desperately wanted to shake hands with. Let me say that I am going nowhere. I did not come from England, but I have Orange colleagues who do. I also have many colleagues who live in England, Scotland, Wales and across the free world and belong to the Orange Institution. There is no doubt that the apologists — we have heard them — for the "Kick the Orange" and "Kick the army" bands will defend that audience. Tell me this: what is the defence? Do the excusers mean that calls to kick the Orange and kick the army were offensive or regrettable but not incitement? Draw the line, Members, between the difference: offensive, highly regrettable but not incitement. Please, do not try to insult us by pretending that it was all just a bit of fun. There is no pretence. It was sick fun at other people's expense, and, much more, it was meant.

I am the only leader of a local party in the House who is a member of the Orange Institution. I am proud to be so and proud to be a past assistant Grand Master of the Grand Orange Lodge of Ireland. I will and do stand up for Orangeism. There is not an ounce of hatred in my head or in my heart, not a smidgen of inciting anyone nor a desire to cause offence in the practice of my belonging to the Orange Institution. There is no slippage on my part from adhering to the qualifications of being an Orangeman. I am, in all that, a typical, ordinary Orangeman, and the very idea that a publicly funded body would cover the expense of an event mired in disgrace over its choice of entertainment affronts me as I am sure it does Mr Hussey, who I will give way to.

Ross Hussey (UUP, West Tyrone)

Thank you. Reference has been made several times to the British Army. Indeed, Ms Ruane made reference to it as well. Do you agree that many soldiers who serve bravely in the British Army are actually from the Irish Republic? Where are they going to go home to?

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

The Member has an added minute.

David McNarry (UKIP, Strangford)

I take that point. It is well made. I agree that there is a long history of Irishmen, before this state was founded, serving loyally and that that continues to this day.

I heard a reference to Irish culture at the end of Ms Ruane's piece. The offence to me and many like me at the event actually showed the door to me for Irish culture. It said, "Don't come in. You are not welcome. If you happen to trespass in here, this is what we want to sing about you". Irish culture may be very fine, but let us share it and recognise our own culture as well.

Trevor Lunn (Alliance, Lagan Valley)

I support our amendment. We will oppose the motion and amendment No 1. I am pleased to see that Sinn Féin and the SDLP are prepared to support our amendment. That is positive.

The motion has come about because of sectarian comments made by a member of a band from Kildare that, somebody said, has form in this area. That is putting it mildly. It has considerable form in this area, and the organisers of the Ardoyne Fleadh would have known what they were getting for what Mr McCausland referred to as Irish rebel night on the last night of an otherwise relatively uneventful and successful event.

Jim Wells (DUP, South Down)

Will the Member give way?

Trevor Lunn (Alliance, Lagan Valley)

Go on then.

Jim Wells (DUP, South Down)

Does the Member agree that not only did the Druids have form, but the event had form for many years. With anything billed as an Irish rebel night, there is something in that description that might give you a clue as to what is going on. That should have no part in a cross-community festival.

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

The Member has an extra minute.

Trevor Lunn (Alliance, Lagan Valley)

I thought that I probably would achieve an extra minute, Mr Speaker.

The band went back to Kildare after causing mayhem and apologised. I use that word in its loosest sense. They apparently said that the remarks were taken out of context and they did not intend any offence. How you can take out of context a request or demand that the legitimate population or a section of it from Northern Ireland should eff off back to England where they belong and say that that is capable of interpretation is beyond me. It is pretty explicit. I utterly condemn what the band has said, but I also acknowledge that the organisers of the Ardoyne Fleadh have been unequivocal in their condemnation of what was said —

Trevor Clarke (DUP, South Antrim)

Will the Member give way?

Trevor Lunn (Alliance, Lagan Valley)

No — as has everybody else involved right round the House today. I listened initially to Mr Maginness's remarks on the radio on the day after the event, and the condemnation was absolutely clear. The band's apology was entirely mischievous. They knew exactly what they were doing and knew what the reaction would be. I imagine that the band members are sitting down in Kildare now probably with a pint and enjoying themselves hugely, especially at the fact that they have created the situation where the Assembly has to debate something that, to some people, is not quite as important or worthy of our attention as it is to other people.

I want to talk about Mr Allister's amendment. I think that there is a misunderstanding here. The PSNI has looked at the situation and discussed it with the DPP and the PPS, and the initial impression that it got was that it was not worth pursuing a prosecution.

Following further complaints — particularly, I think, from people around us here — the police have had to go through the full procedure and prepare a file that will be passed to the appropriate authorities. A decision will be made on whether there is grounds for prosecution. To me, that does not constitute lack of action. It is unfortunate that they had to be prodded to do the right thing, but they are doing it. For that reason, we cannot accept Mr Allister's amendment.

The motion talks about withdrawal of all public funding from this event. I wonder where we go with that. This is one event. Effectively, it is one evening of one event, an event that has been running for 24 years. I believe that it has largely been uneventful, if I can say so. I am looking at Mr Wells, who would probably not agree. It is a well-established, mainly cultural event. Are we going to seriously think about withdrawing funding from any events that I might call "single-identity events", where there might be a sectarian display of some kind or sectarian comments or singing? Are we talking about bonfires or posters on bonfires? An awful lot of events are sponsored by Departments in this country, including the West Belfast Festival, which has been commented on today. I would include the various attempts at Orangefest, Orange outreach and Orange and loyalist bands. You cannot really look at them one by one, then pick one out and say that, on the basis of one misdemeanour, we will not —

Roy Beggs (UUP, East Antrim)

Will the Member give way?

Trevor Lunn (Alliance, Lagan Valley)

Yes, go on.

Roy Beggs (UUP, East Antrim)

As a member of the Orange Order, I ask him to explain how he compares Orange events with this fleadh and this outrage. I am offended.

Trevor Lunn (Alliance, Lagan Valley)

I compare them in their attempts to reach out across the community. That is the comparison. The Ardoyne Fleadh has a cross-community aspect to it.

Jim Wells (DUP, South Down)

Where is it?

Trevor Lunn (Alliance, Lagan Valley)

Mr Kelly referred to it. Mr McCausland has participated in panel discussions. There have been cross-community events involving children during the fleadh, mainly around arts and crafts. At least it is an attempt to bring the community together.

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

The Member must bring his remarks to a close.

Trevor Lunn (Alliance, Lagan Valley)

I will finish with the petition of concern, Mr Speaker. It really does not matter a hoot, does it? It will not change the balance of votes in the House by one iota. Whatever the House thinks, it will vote. I really do not care that there is a petition of concern or otherwise.

Jim Allister (Traditional Unionist Voice, North Antrim)

Most contributers have, in one way or another, agreed that the words used were, at least, abusive and insulting. Many suggest that they were much more besides. That is good. The surprising thing is that then, when it comes to the vote, some of the people who profess to take that stance will vote against any rebuke whatsoever in respect of the participants in the fleadh.

Trevor Clarke (DUP, South Antrim)

Will the Member give way on that point?

Jim Allister (Traditional Unionist Voice, North Antrim)

I will give way very quickly.

Trevor Clarke (DUP, South Antrim)

I thank the Member for giving way. Does he agree that maybe the Alliance Party's attempt here is to protect the chairman of the CRC, who is a former member, if not an existing member, of the Alliance Party? Is it not an attempt on its part to save his face?

Jim Allister (Traditional Unionist Voice, North Antrim)

I cannot really comment on the machinations of that.

Chris Lyttle (Alliance, Belfast East)

Will the Member give way?

Jim Allister (Traditional Unionist Voice, North Antrim)

I might deal with your comments later, so perhaps then.

I want to pick up on the comments made by some Members. Mr Attwood rebuked unionists in the House, saying that the response to the remarks had been disproportionate. Mr Attwood fails to have any appreciation of the raw nerve that those remarks touch for many in the unionist community. Those remarks are an articulation of "Brits out". For decades in the Province, "Brits out" was delivered down the barrel of a gun. That is why unionists in this community are sensitive when they are told, "Brits out": we know what it is code for. We know what those who were chanting and dancing and exalting were supporting.

Alex Attwood (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast West)

Will the Member give way?

Jim Allister (Traditional Unionist Voice, North Antrim)

Yes.

Alex Attwood (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast West)

I accept that the relentless validation by republicans of IRA terror is deeply alienating to unionism, as it is to us, which is the point that I was making at the end of my speech. My comment, as you will see if you check Hansard, was that it would be disproportionate to withdraw funding. It was not that the sense of offence was disproportionate; it was that to withdraw funding from the Ardoyne Fleadh would be disproportionate.

Jim Allister (Traditional Unionist Voice, North Antrim)

Mr Attwood's answer to the offence caused by the fleadh is to do nothing. That, I think, is a commentary in itself. Doing nothing would be disproportionate to the offence caused.

Mr Maginness rebuked me for suggesting that the matter had been swept under the carpet by the prosecuting authorities. Has Mr Maginness or anyone else ever heard of a decision on a prosecutory matter being taken within seven days? Of course there was an attempt to sweep it under the carpet. Then it emerges that the DPP was consulted without even the presentation of a file. What does that speak to but an urgency to sweep it under the carpet? Now we are told by the Alliance Party, "Oh well, don't bother. Don't be disturbed about that. They are going to put that right". Are they? What did the Chief Constable say? His response was this: "Within a few hours we could put together a file". That is not a proper investigation. As I laboured during my earlier remarks, once you have a reasonable suspicion that an incitement to hatred crime has been committed, the bounden obligation is to arrest and to question. That cannot be done within a few hours. So, even yet, in the words of the Chief Constable, there does not seem to be a manifestation of intent for a proper investigation. That is why the criticism in my amendment is more than justified, and why I urge it on the House.

Mr Maginness said that there had been a proper investigation. Then, in the next breath, he said that we did not know the detail of the file; in fact, we know that there was no file. How could it ever be a proper investigation? Patently it was not. Patently there was a great urgency to do exactly what I said: sweep it under the carpet. Some in the House want to sweep it under the carpet. That is why, for all the platitudes, many in the House will vote against the motion and against the first amendment.

Speaking of platitudes, Miss Ruane told us that she condemns all sectarianism. I have listened to Miss Ruane many times, and I have yet to hear her condemn the murderous sectarianism in the murders of the IRA. Not once has she condemned that manifestation of sectarianism. Rather, she continues to justify it. So much for the remarks of Miss Ruane.

Chris Lyttle (Alliance, Belfast East)

I thank the Member for giving way. The Member said that the Alliance Party was going to vote against any rebuke whatsoever in relation to this heinous sectarian comment. That is obviously inaccurate. We have also been accused of being linked to decision-making in relation to the Community Relations Council. A simple check —

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

Order. Mr Allister's time is gone.

William Humphrey (DUP, Belfast North)

I thank those who have contributed to the debate. Franklin Jones once observed:

"Nothing makes you more tolerant of a neighbour's noisy party than being there".

The recent performance by the Druids as part of the Ardoyne Fleadh showed that such a proposition would not be possible for a Protestant or unionist living in north Belfast in the vicinity of the event. Indeed, the performance on the stage made it clear that those so-called entertainers thought that the unionist community of that area, along with the soldiers and those who are Orange brethren, should clear off and take their Union flag with them.

Many Members made reference to the speech and the direct words used by the so-called entertainer. They were anti-Orange and anti-British; they were sectarian, hate-filled, racist, bile remarks, and they should be, and have been, condemned. Let me make it very clear: I am a proud Ulsterman; I am a proud Orangeman; I am British; I am from north Belfast; my community and I are going nowhere.

There are those who talk about Her Majesty's forces being in Northern Ireland. I have to say this: there is a certain irony in this whole thing when those people come from the Republic of Ireland. Her Majesty's forces are garrisoned in Northern Ireland, as they are across the kingdom — as they should be — to protect people from terrorism, the very terrorism that was being glorified at this event. I have spoken to the grand secretary of the Grand Orange Lodge of Ireland, and I know that he is pursuing the issue because of the offensive remarks that were made towards those of us who are Orangemen. To think that my Orange culture is branded as being intolerant.

Since the comments became available online, the organisers of the event have been at pains to point out that they do not represent the views of the republican community, as articulated by Mr Maginness and Mr Kelly, in that area. As others have said, the enthusiastic cheering and hollering that took place as those remarks were being delivered in a school's grounds by the thousands of people surrounding the platform do not bear that out. The truth is that it is merely a symptom of the much wider, undiluted, unrestrained and unreconstructed hatred towards the Protestant community that emanates from certain sources within that community. It is chiefly directed at the Orange Institution by groups with dissident connections such as GARC.

Having listened to this debate, we have tacit endorsement from Sinn Féin and the SDLP for these actions, because there is refusal to have sanctions applied to those involved in organising it. Already, I can hear the holier-than-thou commentators and politicians asking how dare I make such comments about the community in north Belfast. Unlike most of those commentators and politicians, I live there. I happen to live in north Belfast and have done so all of my life. I know the reality of what it is like on the ground in the constituency. The hurt that Mr Attwood talked about is absolutely palpable. People are coming into my office, and people are stopping me on the street. Members across the way can laugh, but that is the reality. If you are serious about building an Ireland of equals, you should listen to what I am saying.

Chris Lyttle (Alliance, Belfast East)

Will the Member give way?

William Humphrey (DUP, Belfast North)

Surely.

Chris Lyttle (Alliance, Belfast East)

Does the Member agree that one does not have to live in north Belfast to share the same amount of resentment and anger in relation to the sectarian comments that were made from the platform?

William Humphrey (DUP, Belfast North)

I will come to the Alliance Party in a moment. Emotions are extremely raw within the Protestant community in north Belfast, for a variety of reasons, ranging from the ludicrous determination of the Parades Commission through to the sectarian decision to remove the nation's flag from the City Hall, which you played a part in. The performance of the Druids was merely the latest in a long line of calculated insults on rebel night and acts of aggression to emanate from this particular quarter.

What message does it send to the people I represent? Mr Maginness talks about the chairman. Who is the chairman? Is Eddie Copeland the chairman? That is the same Eddie Copeland who unveiled a memorial plaque in Flax Street to the murderer of the nine people who were killed in the Shankill bombing.

Jim Wells (DUP, South Down)

The Member will also be interested to hear that, in addition to the Druids, this year's fleadh had the Fianna Irish rebel band. I am sure we would love to see a video of what went on during that concert.

William Humphrey (DUP, Belfast North)

I thank the Member for that contribution. How are we on these Benches — those of us who live in or represent north Belfast, or anyone else for that matter — to take seriously the assertion that this is an event that is about building community spirit rather than directing hatred to Protestants and unionists, Orangemen and British soldiers when the organisers, point blank, refuse to condemn the attack on Her Majesty's forces who live here, many of whom are local people protecting communities?

Members of Belfast City Council's licensing committee asked the organisers who, incidentally, have held the event illegally, without a licence, for years, if they were prepared to turn the sound down or to end the event earlier in the evening. What sort of message does it send out when Sinn Féin, the SDLP and Alliance vote to agree the licence anyway? It is no surprise that Sinn Féin is backing Mr Copeland and his committee — birds of a feather flock together — but questions do have to be asked of the SDLP and Alliance.

Then again, I listened to Mr Lunn's summing-up speech for Alliance in which he said that it is a mainly cultural event and that this is not a big deal really. I will tell you that for the people whom I represent and the community in which I live, it is a big deal.

Trevor Lunn (Alliance, Lagan Valley)

Will the Member give way?

William Humphrey (DUP, Belfast North)

No.

Those of us who live in north Belfast know that the SDLP has been, in recent years, seeking to out-green Sinn Féin, but what of Alliance? Why does a party that preens itself in public on its cross-community credentials vote in City Hall for such a thing to happen and agree the licence? I hope that the Alliance Party will review its decision when the licence is before the committee next year.

It is not for today to hear the usual sermonising from Alliance Members about both sides being as bad as each other. The fact is that the Druids would not have been on stage had Alliance and the SDLP not voted to give the licence. The response to the ensuing uproar over the Druids's comments from organisers and Sinn Féin was the classic political non-apology. They said sorry for the comments in so far as they related to Orangemen but defended them in so far as they related to Her Majesty's forces and soldiers. What about Orangemen who are soldiers? Does the apology apply to them? Why apologise for comments about Orangemen when the comments are actually much broader than that? What the performer actually said was, "Orange comrades". That is a much wider category of people than members of the Orange Institution. It encompasses Orangemen, the Orange family, their friends and supporters — 750,000 of whom are out on the streets across this country on 12 July. In other words, the entire Orange tradition in Northern Ireland.

In the context of a community like mine where Orangemen are, daily, being denied their legitimate rights, it does not take a fool to understand just how incendiary those remarks are. Having lost ground to the dissidents in Ardoyne for some time, I suspect that senior members of Sinn Féin were actually pleased about the opportunity presented by the Druids. After all, they got to say offensive things about Her Majesty's forces that perhaps Sinn Féin has decided, politically, not to say in recent years.

Serious questions have to be asked and answered by DCAL, the Community Relations Council, the Department of Foreign Affairs in the Irish Republic and CCMS. The Community Relations Council's role in Northern Ireland is to promote a peaceful and fair society based on reconciliation and mutual trust. It was formed in 1990 and was set up:

"to promote better community relations between Protestants and Catholics ... and, equally, to promote recognition of cultural diversity."

Well, we will see what actions it takes in the coming days and weeks.

The fleadh's final night is something that I have witnessed and listened to for many, many years. The sectarian bile that comes from the so-called community festival is just disgusting. For years, grossly offensive, sectarian, racist speeches have peddled hatred and division against my community and wider society in Northern Ireland.

To conclude, this event has proven through repeated breaches of rules and through more recent events that it does not merit public funding, whether from council, Government here or, indeed, a foreign Government. I commend the motion to the House.

On behalf of the DUP, I have to say that we will accept Mr Allister's amendment, because, despite what Mr Maginness said, the debacle around the original file produced for the PPS was a disgrace. Only when pressure was applied from party colleagues of mine and others was a second file put forward to the PPS.

Chris Lyttle (Alliance, Belfast East)

Will the Member give way?

William Humphrey (DUP, Belfast North)

Serious questions must be answered by the police and the PPS —

Chris Lyttle (Alliance, Belfast East)

[Interruption.]

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

Order. The Member should not persist. Order.

William Humphrey (DUP, Belfast North)

— around the issue. A party delegation from the DUP will meet the Chief Constable on Thursday, because confidence in the police and in the Public Prosecution Service has been undermined by this debacle. It is very clear and Members can live in an ideal world all they want, but, on the ground, —

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

Will the Member bring his remarks to a close?

William Humphrey (DUP, Belfast North)

— that is the reality in north Belfast, across this city and across Northern Ireland. I commend the motion.

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

Once again, before I put the Question on amendment No 1, I remind Members that if it is made, I will not put the Question on amendment No 2.

Question put, That amendment No 1 be made.

The Assembly divided:

Ayes 42; Noes 42.

William Hay (Speaker, Foyle)

I have been advised by party Whips that, in accordance with Standing Order 27(1A)(b), there is an agreement that we can dispense with the three minutes and move straight to the Division.

The Assembly divided:

Ayes 44; Noes 42.

Oral Answers to Questions

Mitchel McLaughlin (Sinn Féin, South Antrim)

Ms Anna Lo is not in her place.

Tom Elliott (UUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

2. asked the Minister for Social Development whether departmental funding can be used to establish a commercial business that would compete with private enterprise providing the same or similar service. (AQO 6506/11-15)

Nelson McCausland (DUP, Belfast North)

You will be aware that, over recent years, my Department has invested significant amounts in order to support the regeneration of Enniskillen town centre and support local businesses. That funding has not been used to establish any commercial business. Approval for a branding, marketing and advertising campaign for Enniskillen town centre was endorsed unanimously by Fermanagh district councillors.

The development of the Enjoy Enniskillen website was one element of a package of actions aimed at highlighting Enniskillen’s role as a tourist destination and market town. Key elements of the project included adding vitality and vibrancy to the town, strengthening the strong independent retail offering, promoting Enniskillen’s unique identity as an inland town, and maximising the town’s tourism potential in order to make the most of its physical assets and geographical location.

The development of the brand "Enniskillen — A Place Apart" required an online presence. That website showcases Enniskillen town centre and gives a flavour, through images, of what the town has to offer in terms of attractions, services, events, arts, culture, history and heritage. It is appropriate to include images of services such as shopping as they are a key part of what visitors to Enniskillen will want and need. It was not designed to compete with any existing business or shopping directories.

Tom Elliott (UUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

I thank the Minister for that answer. He strayed into the issues around Enniskillen that were not in my question, but which are of significant help. Does the Minister have a specific policy that does not allow funding from his Department to compete directly with a commercial business?

Nelson McCausland (DUP, Belfast North)

That comes down to the question of what constitutes a commercial business and what constitutes competition. I am sure that the Member would agree that when Fermanagh District Council unanimously agreed, as a council, that having a website of this type was the right approach, the decision was taken to support them. That is the specific example that the Member raised previously.

As to whether there is competition, there will be various opinions. I am not aware of any specific policy, but then I am not sure and do not accept that there is competition in this case. I understand that the Member may not want to go fully into all the details of that particular case, but I think that there is a link between the two websites.

Trevor Clarke (DUP, South Antrim)

3. asked the Minister for Social Development to outline the effect his Department's budget cuts will have on South Antrim. (AQO 6507/11-15)

Nelson McCausland (DUP, Belfast North)

The Department is currently considering a number of options to manage the effect of the budget cuts. It is too early at this juncture to determine to what extent the present budget cuts will affect the south Antrim area in particular.

Trevor Clarke (DUP, South Antrim)

I thank the Minister for his answer, although it is vague on detail for South Antrim. What effect will the ongoing problems with the Budget have on the totality of his Department?

Nelson McCausland (DUP, Belfast North)

The Member raises an issue that is very much on my mind and, I am sure, on the minds of a number of other Ministers. The fact is that a budget cut of 2·1% was imposed as a result of the June monitoring round, which represented a cut of £13·5 million for the Department.

Work is well advanced on the upcoming October monitoring round. Current indications are that that will produce a further 2·3% cut, therefore resulting in a total cut, over June and October, of £29 million for the year. That is bound to have an impact in South Antrim and, indeed, other constituencies. It will also have an impact in a whole range of areas.

I will mention here areas in South Antrim in which we have invested in the past year, 2013-14. In housing and urban renewal, for example, we invested £1·9 million in new social housing; £1·7 million in planned maintenance services; £1·3 million in urban generation; £54,000 in voluntary and community; and £42,000 in tackling disadvantage. So, over that period, you can see that we spent in the region of £6 million. However, we are now faced with a very substantial cut, right across the Department, of £13·5 million and, adding on from that, £29 million.

Danny Kinahan (UUP, South Antrim)

I thank the Minister for his answer so far. I am glad to hear that £6 million was spent in South Antrim, although that still seems very little. Will the Minister accept that the cuts to departmental budgets that were applied in June monitoring were nothing to do with welfare reform and, in reality, were predominantly to pay for Executive commitments and the £20 million lifeline to health? Will he make sure that the public knows that?

Nelson McCausland (DUP, Belfast North)

As the Member well knows — as does his party colleague on the Executive, because he has been party to the discussions there and has been part of the welfare subcommittee in the Executive — we are facing into a further cut of £15·5 million. We already know what the total cost of not proceeding with welfare reform is going to be. It is not just the smaller figure that we are talking about at the moment, because we are getting to the point where meeting the penalties as a result of welfare reform will cost £200 million a year, on top of all the other costs.

Of course, there are people who think that you should just invent your own IT system. Sure, £1 billion to pay for something there — to buy over a legacy system and operate that — will not be a problem for some people. Or, £1·6 billion to create a new, bespoke system for Northern Ireland is not a problem for some people. The result is, in fact, that some Members are quite clearly financially illiterate.

Megan Fearon (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

4. asked the Minister for Social Development for his assessment of the current welfare cuts agenda in relation to vulnerable people. (AQO 6508/11-15)

Nelson McCausland (DUP, Belfast North)

Perhaps the Member will consider the adverse effect of not introducing welfare reform in Northern Ireland, which is an area that I have already strayed into. It is important that we consider that in relation to vulnerable people by considering my previous answer on the budget cuts that my Department will have to make, should we not have movement with the Welfare Reform Bill. DSD provides a range of services to vulnerable groups across Northern Ireland, and some of the most vulnerable in our society — people in areas of deprivation and suffering from individual and family vulnerabilities — will bear the brunt of this.

Welfare reform will control the level or rate of the increase in social security spending. It is estimated that, even after welfare reform, spending on social security benefits will be higher than it was in 2010-11, rising from around £5 billion in 2010-11 to over £6 billion by 2018-19. Protecting the vulnerable is a key priority and, although I have publicly expressed support for the reform of the welfare system, I have concerns with certain aspects of the welfare reform proposals as implemented in GB. I have listened to the debate in Great Britain about the impact on the most vulnerable. That is why I met Northern Ireland’s four Church leaders to discuss welfare reform in Northern Ireland and why we have ongoing engagement with a range of stakeholders. I will continue to ensure that protecting the vulnerable is at the core of what I do.

The reality is that the welfare system needs to change to ensure that it is fair, affordable and sustainable. In fact, plans to reform the welfare system have been ongoing since 2009, when a Welfare Bill was considered. Since taking office, I have ensured that this Welfare Reform Bill has been progressed against my four principles which are central to the policy intent behind this legislation, namely: protect the vulnerable, get people into work or back to work, develop a system that is fair, and encourage personal and social responsibility.

As part of that, I have developed a package of measures, including a series of flexibilities and transitional protections designed to meet the needs of the people in Northern Ireland. That package of measures helps to simplify the system, and, more importantly, it ensures that the vulnerable are protected.

Mitchel McLaughlin (Sinn Féin, South Antrim)

That was an important and detailed answer, but I remind the Minister of the two-minute rule.

Megan Fearon (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. The Minister made up his own question and answered a completely different question from the one I asked. In light of a recent report issued by Queen's University that says that over a quarter of adults in the North live in multiple deprivation and in light of the fact that the UN is investigating Britain for human rights abuses against disabled people, will the Minister join us in defending the most vulnerable against Tory cuts, which will only worsen the already bad levels of deprivation in the North?

Nelson McCausland (DUP, Belfast North)

The Member says that I did not answer the question she asked. I actually answered her question and the question that she and her party does not want to ask or face up to. The fact is that, if Sinn Féin cuts are imposed — when they are imposed, given the way that we are going — they will be detrimental to the most vulnerable. Those cuts will be the result of the inaction of Sinn Féin and the SDLP.

There is also an increasing body of evidence, such as the Joseph Rowntree Foundation report on minimum income standard for the UK in 2014 and the Institute for Fiscal Studies report 'Green Budget 2014', that supports the positive aspects of welfare reform and the introduction of universal credit, which will improve the financial reward for hard-working families and provide greater incentives for people to work. We need a system that encourages people into work, supports them in that regard and is there as a safety net for the most vulnerable. That is my task. I do not want to see the vulnerable being punished because of the financial incapability of others.

Paula Bradley (DUP, Belfast North)

I thank the Minister for his answers. Minister, when we talk about some of the most vulnerable, we often think about those in receipt of disability benefits. How will the new personal independence payments (PIPs) affect children and older people?

Nelson McCausland (DUP, Belfast North)

The personal independence payment will affect only working-age claimants — those aged 16 to 64. PIP will not affect the most vulnerable age groups — children under 16 or adults over 64. Individuals in those age groups will continue to receive their benefit as long as they satisfy the criteria. It is only when a child reaches their sixteenth birthday that they will be invited to make a claim for personal independence payment.

Additional safeguards have been built into the PIP customer journey to ensure that vulnerable people in Northern Ireland receive all the help and support they need as they encounter the new benefit. I will continue to work with colleagues to ensure that Northern Ireland is not adversely impacted by the changes. We are doing all we can in terms of getting the flexibilities that I have negotiated with Westminster and putting together a package of other measures to mitigate the worst effects of welfare reform and protect the most vulnerable.

Dolores Kelly (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Upper Bann)

Mr Principal Deputy Speaker, you will appreciate the scepticism many of us on this side of the House have about a financially illiterate Minister who stood a few months ago and accused four contractors of an £18 million overpayment. There is some concern around his waving about of financial figures at the moment. Perhaps the Minister could give us a profile across each constituency of the impact of welfare cuts. It is unfortunate that he and his party have thrown in the towel to the Conservatives in relation to the impact of the cuts.

Nelson McCausland (DUP, Belfast North)

The opportunity to answer Mrs Kelly is always a privilege and a pleasure. The first thing is to point out that it was her party, when it was in DSD, that started the process of implementing GB welfare reform in Northern Ireland. It is not just that she does not mention that; she seems to have forgotten about it. I do not know what the reason is, but she obviously has forgotten about it. It is one of a number of things that were quietly forgotten about by Mrs Kelly.

Secondly, in terms of doing things on a constituency basis, in regard to welfare reform, we have generally looked at the impact on different categories of people, whether it is a particular age group or a particular section 75 category or whatever. All of those things have been looked at; it has not really been done on a individual constituency basis. However, it is clear that the work was done. In fact, we had to do it because, if we were going to develop mitigations and flexibilities, we needed to know what the impact was in order to develop and negotiate them. That work has been done, and it informed fully all the conversations that we had with DWP, Iain Duncan Smith, David Freud and others and the work that was then done in developing local flexibilities and mitigations here in Northern Ireland.

Leslie Cree (UUP, North Down)

Will the Minister explain why he does not bring the Bill that he introduced two years ago back to the Floor of the House for discussion and, at Consideration Stage, table his package of proposals and allow other parties to do the same?

Nelson McCausland (DUP, Belfast North)

The worst thing of all, in many ways, would be to bring legislation into the Assembly and then for that to fall. We would be in a much more difficult situation then because you would almost be back to the drawing board and back to stage one. I can see the Member's colleague beside him nodding in agreement.

The second thing is that we have two parties that have their face set very firmly against it. Maybe the Member's head just nods. The fact is that there are two parties that are dead set against any movement. They seem to be like rabbits caught in the headlights and are not quite sure what to do. I do not want us to get into the situation where we would be worse off than we are now. We have a good package, and people are well aware of what is in it. It has been talked about enough. Everyone knows what is in it. The Member himself will be aware of the elements in that package. The real issue needs to be in the Executive, where the representatives of other parties agree that this comes forward as a Northern Ireland Executive package rather than simply being put onto the Floor and thrown out there. We do not want to get into a situation that would be worse than the current situation.

Sean Lynch (Sinn Féin, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

5. asked the Minister for Social Development to outline the capital and revenue projects his Department is currently developing, in conjunction with other Departments, in neighbourhood renewal areas. (AQO 6509/11-15)

Nelson McCausland (DUP, Belfast North)

My Department is developing a number of projects in conjunction with other Departments in neighbourhood renewal areas. These range from capital street enhancement schemes to revenue projects that address some of the barriers that contribute to low educational attainment and poor health. These projects are being developed in conjunction with the Department for Regional Development, OFMDFM, the Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure and the Department of Education. Obviously, there is a long list of projects that it is not really possible to deal with in an oral answer. We work with all of those other Departments on a range of measures.

Sean Lynch (Sinn Féin, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

I thank the Minister for what was a fairly short answer. Minister, given the transfer of neighbourhood renewal to local government, can you assure us that projects that are under way will not be impacted by a reduced budget? Go raibh maith agat.

Nelson McCausland (DUP, Belfast North)

The answer was brief because it was either going to be succinct in summary of the situation or we would get into a situation where I listed all the projects across all the constituencies. We would have been well past the two minutes set aside by the Speaker to deal with questions and answers.

The budget for neighbourhood renewal and urban regeneration is being transferred to local councils, and my departmental officials are engaging thoroughly with councils to make sure that that process is as smooth and seamless as possible. How councils then take forward those projects, how they decide to prioritise them, to stage them and to finance them are matters for councils themselves. As of 1 April, if the Regeneration and Housing Bill goes through — I say "if" because it has not gone through yet — it will indeed be a matter for councils.

Paul Givan (DUP, Lagan Valley)

The Minister will be aware of the meeting that he had yesterday with representatives from the Resurgam Trust in my constituency. That organisation is funded through a pilot scheme. Can the Minister give an assurance that there will be proactive work taken forward so that that scheme does not fall through any cracks because it does not naturally fit with urban renewal? Can he update the House on progress towards introducing the Regeneration and Housing Bill?

Nelson McCausland (DUP, Belfast North)

I thank the Member for his question. He was at the meeting and is aware that work is ongoing between DSD officials and the officials in the new council area to make sure that whatever happens moving forward is the best possible outcome.

The Member also asks about the Regeneration and Housing Bill. That is why I said "if" earlier. I have sought Executive approval to introduce the Regeneration and Housing Bill in the Assembly on a number of occasions. I made three attempts to table it at Executive meetings on 5 June and 9 June and on 8 July. I also sought clearance by urgent procedure on 9 July and 29 August. However, I have so far been unable to make progress with that important legislation because of the failure of some members of the Executive to agree to the Bill proceeding.

The Bill is essential in order to proceed with the transfer of functions and the conferral of powers to councils in April 2015, as agreed by the Executive in April 2013. The Bill was put forward for the Executive back in spring. I have listed the occasions on which I attempted to table it and have also sought clearance by urgent procedure. I also recently wrote to all Ministers asking for comment on it. I got a reply from one Minister — the Culture, Arts and Leisure Minister — who raised a range of issues now at a very late stage. I have responded to that. I wrote out on 2 September; we got a reply on 8 September. The reply to all the points has now gone back, and I hope that we will be able to move forward. Councils are expecting that, on 1 April, the functions will transfer. If the legislation does not go through, nothing will transfer.

John Dallat (Social Democratic and Labour Party, East Londonderry)

I thank the Minister for his comprehensive answer, which I listened to carefully. Can he tell us what endeavours he has made to submit his proposals for equality impact assessment, given that the new councils will be very quickly judged on their ability to be fair in the distribution of their resources? Can he tell us what training the new shadow councils have undertaken to ensure that, come 1 April, they will be in a position to do the job and do it correctly?

Nelson McCausland (DUP, Belfast North)

The Member should have a conversation with his own Minister. There is a role for the Department of the Environment as the lead Department in the reform of local government, so I suggest that, if he has concerns — he obviously has — he take them up with the member of his party. It is not a thing for me to deal with. If the Member does not even understand that, we are in a bad and sorry state. Clearly, it is something that his own Minister should be dealing with. He should talk to him. If they do not talk to each other, I cannot help that.

Jo-Anne Dobson (UUP, Upper Bann)

6. asked the Minister for Social Development for his assessment of his Department's effectiveness at reducing the proportion of households in fuel poverty. (AQO 6510/11-15)

Nelson McCausland (DUP, Belfast North)

I thank the Member for the question and for raising what is an important issue in regard to fuel poverty. Fuel poverty in Northern Ireland has three core contributors: income, energy prices and the energy efficiency of homes. Unlike other regions of the UK, a primary reason for high levels of expenditure in Northern Ireland is the prominence of oil as a source of domestic heating fuel.

In 2009, it was estimated that 44% of households were experiencing fuel poverty. According to the 2011 house condition survey, that figure is currently 42%. That is based on households needing to spend 10% or more of their income on household fuel costs. Research has also highlighted 33,000 households across Northern Ireland that need to spend 25% or more of their income to adequately heat their home.

Whilst the proportion of households in fuel poverty has reduced slightly, without the measures delivered by my Department the rates of fuel poverty would be significantly higher. That underlines my commitment to assisting the most vulnerable households in Northern Ireland by providing measures to reduce their energy costs and maximise the energy efficiency of their homes.

There are 120,000 homes that have had energy efficiency measures installed under the current warm homes scheme, investing over £150 million. Over 14,500 old, inefficient boilers have been replaced in the boiler replacement scheme. I will shortly launch a new energy efficiency scheme that will be a targeted, area-based approach. It will find and target the most vulnerable homes — those where people live in severe fuel poverty — and offer energy efficiency assistance to them.

There is no doubt that more work could be done in tackling fuel poverty. However, I am restricted to the work that can be done within allocated budgets. I can assure the Member that I am committed to working in a collaborative and inclusive way, and I am always keen to explore all options and new initiatives to provide assistance to the most vulnerable households.

I chair the cross-sectoral fuel poverty partnership and work closely with my colleague in DETI, Arlene Foster. The partnership includes not simply the Departments that are relevant to this but a range of stakeholders who work in the area of fuel poverty.

Mitchel McLaughlin (Sinn Féin, South Antrim)

I again remind the Minister of the two-minute rule.

Jo-Anne Dobson (UUP, Upper Bann)

I thank the Minister for his detailed and lengthy answer. Does he accept that, despite all the policies and the wholehearted words of support from his Department, the impact on families in fuel poverty has been negligible? Does he really think that a 2% drop over recent years is good enough? What more could he have done to meet key departmental targets?

Nelson McCausland (DUP, Belfast North)

I made the point at the start that there were three main contributors to fuel poverty. The first is a really big issue in Northern Ireland: our heavy dependence on domestic heating oil. That is so different from the situation in GB, which is why the work being taken forward by my DETI colleague, Arlene Foster, to expand the gas network to the west is so important. The more people who can access gas, the better, because it is a cheaper fuel. That sort of thing will have the biggest impact. The other thing we do, which I did not really mention, concerns income. Our benefit uptake campaigns have a significant impact on people's ability to pay for fuel. Income level is the third factor in fuel poverty. The work that we are doing at the moment — the targeted approach — is particularly innovative. The academic whom we are working with, Professor Christine Liddell, is at the forefront on that and is leading the way in the British Isles in that regard.

George Robinson (DUP, East Londonderry)

Why has the decrease in the levels of fuel poverty not been more significant?

Nelson McCausland (DUP, Belfast North)

Fuel poverty has those three factors: income, fuel cost and energy efficiency. The major focus of my Department's fuel poverty strategy is to remove energy inefficiency as a cause of fuel poverty, because that is the one contributor to fuel poverty that we can do something about.

We can talk about tackling the price of fuel, which is important, as is the introduction of gas to a wider area, and we can talk about improving household incomes, but we really can do something about improving energy efficiency. In the social housing stock, we have done a tremendous amount of work on that, and by the end of this financial year all Housing Executive properties will be double-glazed.

By the end of this year, we will also be in a much better position regarding the energy efficiency of the thousands of Housing Executive no-fines homes: that is, stock that has no cavity wall and no cavity wall insulation. That issue has been around for several decades. Over the past decade, there has been a lot of denial, but we are actually dealing with the issue now, which will make a difference.

Phil Flanagan (Sinn Féin, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

Go raibh maith agat, a Phríomh-LeasCheann Comhairle. Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as ucht a fhreagra. It is pretty shocking that one third of people are expected to pay more than one quarter of their income to heat their home adequately. We deserve better from the Minister than listing the three causes of fuel poverty.

The Minister says that we can talk about increasing household income, but really he is talking about cutting household income. He wants to cut the basic rate of welfare for people and to impose heinous sanctions. How does he tie the two together? You are talking about increasing household income to tackle fuel poverty, but at the same time you want to take hundreds of millions of pounds out of the most vulnerable households in our society.

Nelson McCausland (DUP, Belfast North)

I encourage the Member to ensure that in future, when those issues are being debated at Westminster, the Members from his party, instead of running of away from the issue, are in their seats in Westminster, doing their job and representing the people of Northern Ireland. Then he might have something to talk about and be in a position to comment on others. [Interruption.]

Mitchel McLaughlin (Sinn Féin, South Antrim)

Order, order. I call Mr Fearghal McKinney. I have time to take only the question. The Minister may respond to you in writing.

Fearghal McKinney (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast South)

Thank you, Mr Principal Deputy Speaker.

My question is on a side issue that has been drawn to my attention. Is the Minister aware of what may amount to a warm homes scheme scam, whereby individuals purporting to represent the scheme present themselves at households, do undefined works and demand money? If he is aware, what advice would he give to householders who find themselves confronted in such a way?

Nelson McCausland (DUP, Belfast North)

If the Member has information, I encourage him to bring it to my attention, and I am sure that he will also want to bring it to the attention of the police to have the matter properly investigated. Whatever information he has, I will certainly be interested to hear about it.

Mitchel McLaughlin (Sinn Féin, South Antrim)

Thank you, Minister and Members. That ends the period for listed questions. We now move to topical questions.

Jim Allister (Traditional Unionist Voice, North Antrim)

1. asked the Minister for Social Development, given that, a year ago, it was announced that a fact-finding investigation was being conducted into the alleged attempted intimidation by the Minister’s special adviser of Councillor Jenny Palmer, why that report is buried in the Department, where it is buried and whether it has resulted, or will result, in the implementation of any disciplinary proceedings. (AQT 1401/11-15)

Nelson McCausland (DUP, Belfast North)

I thank the Member for his question. I assume that he is, as a member of the Social Development Committee, aware that just the other day, on 8 September, the Chair of the Committee wrote to me about that very issue and asked for a reply within 10 days. Within the next 10 days, the Member and other members of the Committee will receive a fulsome answer.

Jim Allister (Traditional Unionist Voice, North Antrim)

Is the Minister not being disrespectful to the House by refusing to provide information that he clearly holds? Should he not reflect upon that, or is he trying to conceal it from the House? Will he tell us whether the promised apology to Councillor Palmer has been issued and, if not, why not?

Nelson McCausland (DUP, Belfast North)

It would be disrespectful to the Committee, in so far as I have received a letter from the Chair of the Committee and I will give that information to the Committee within the 10 days. The response is being prepared and drafted. I think it important that I, having received the letter from the Chair, respect the Committee.

The other matter is outside the remit of the question that the Member originally raised. He moved on to something else, but I will say this about it: it is a personnel issue, which will have to influence our dealings with it and the way in which it is handled. I am sure that the Member is aware that there are rules, regulations and procedures that have to be in place when dealing with personnel issues. As I said, the matter will be with the Committee within the next number of days.

Mitchel McLaughlin (Sinn Féin, South Antrim)

Before I call the next topical question, I remind Members that they should ask a single question. Will they clearly focus on that? The same goes for a supplementary. Members should remember that Ministers can choose which element of a line of questioning to respond to. They have that discretion. So you should ask one question, and it should be focused on clearly in the discourse.

Michael Copeland (UUP, Belfast East)

2. asked the Minister for Social Development, on a similar vein to Mr Allister’s question, albeit in a slightly more personal context because of curiosity over whether approaches, as happened previously, have been made, whether he has spoken to Councillor Jenny Palmer since this morning’s media reports, given that she obviously feels cheated and let down by his Department. (AQT 1402/11-15)

Nelson McCausland (DUP, Belfast North)

I did not hear the news item this morning. I was preparing for this morning's Executive Committee meeting and today's questions for oral answer. That and other matters took my attention, so I cannot comment.

Michael Copeland (UUP, Belfast East)

I will follow on from Mr Allister's question: can you confirm whether, at any stage, the findings of your Department, and particularly the DFP internal inquiry, will be made public?

Nelson McCausland (DUP, Belfast North)

I think that the Member is aware of the rules for dealing with personnel matters. Personnel issues are not handled in the same way as certain other things. I am sure that the Member will bear that in mind when asking such questions.

Fra McCann (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

3. asked the Minister for Social Development how he would characterise his relationship with the scrutiny Committee after his attack on its integrity yesterday. (AQT 1403/11-15)

Nelson McCausland (DUP, Belfast North)

I want to ensure that the Committee does its job properly. Primarily, that is, of course, the role of the Chair of the Committee. I think that it was perfectly right and proper to say that a flawed process produced a flawed product. I also encourage the Committee, as I did yesterday, to address the big issues that face us at present. I listed a number of those yesterday, and they include fuel poverty, the standard of maintenance in social housing properties owned by the House Executive, and all the other areas that we are working in, such as energy efficiency, the boiler replacement scheme and antisocial behaviour. I would like to see more product from the Committee in that regard, but, sadly, so much of its time is being taken up on what is, I think, a pointless diversion.

Fra McCann (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

Thank you very much, a Phríomh-Leas Cheann Comhairle. I noticed that the Minister completely dodged the question that I asked. Does he not accept that the Committee is essential for its role in holding Ministers and officials to account?

Nelson McCausland (DUP, Belfast North)

I certainly would not want to dodge Mr McCann. The fact is that this Assembly, as does any legislature anywhere in the British Isles, functions best when you have all the different elements working together. That is why I emphasised yesterday, and again this afternoon, the important role that the Committee has in addressing, considering and bringing forward ideas and recommendations on the sort of issues that really matter to the people of Northern Ireland. Those are the things that I already listed. So, I encourage the Committee to consider those and to reflect on them. They are key areas of work. I will take a simple example. We had some proposals on antisocial behaviour. The Committee had contrary views on them, but when I actually asked, "What do you think would be the best way to tackle it?", there was nothing forthcoming.

David McIlveen (DUP, North Antrim)

4. asked the Minister for Social Development for an update on the Building Successful Communities programme launched by his Department. (AQT 1404/11-15)

Nelson McCausland (DUP, Belfast North)

I am glad to say that all the Building Successful Communities regeneration forums have now been established in the six pilot areas across Northern Ireland. Those are Doury Road in Ballymena; and, in Belfast, lower Falls; Lenadoon and Glencolin; Tigers Bay and Mountcollyer; lower Shankill and Brown Square; and lower Oldpark and Hillview. Doury Road, Lenadoon and Glencolin, and lower Falls were established in April and May. Tigers Bay and Mountcollyer, lower Shankill and Brown Square, and lower Oldpark and Hillview have all had their first meetings within the past four weeks. All the meetings to date have been positive and constructive, and that is an encouraging start. Each forum's membership has embraced the challenges ahead in attempting to use housing as a spearhead for physical, social and economic regeneration.

Each forum includes representatives from the local community who will consider the redevelopment plans for the area, as well as representatives from statutory bodies and elected representatives. Work is ongoing to appoint the consultants who will work with the forums, and I hope that the individual action plans will be in place in the new year, with action plans to follow during 2015.

We are having a seminar on 17 September, which I will open. It will feature keynote addresses from people who have experiences in the field, including those from the Northern Ireland Housing Executive, urban regeneration and the Wheatley Group in Glasgow, and it will be attended by forum members from all six areas.

David McIlveen (DUP, North Antrim)

I thank the Minister for his answer. I am glad that he made mention of the Doury Road scheme in my constituency. I have had the privilege of attending a number of the meetings so far, and I can say with certainty that the buy-in from statutory bodies and the community has been excellent and certainly very encouraging. What is the benchmark of success for those programmes? What is the endgame, and what is it hoped will be achieved for disadvantaged areas such as the Doury Road in Ballymena?