Northern Ireland Assembly, 22 September 2014

380 contributions from 64 members. The official report.

Assembly Business

Mitchel McLaughlin (Sinn Féin, South Antrim)

I would like to advise Members that I spoke to the Speaker this morning. Members will be glad to know that he is in good spirits, but he is following medical advice and recuperating at home pending further treatment for a heart problem in the weeks to come.

As a result, the initial arrangements from last week continue, as, on 18 September, the Speaker wrote to notify me under Standing Order 5(2) that I have been authorised to exercise all his procedural functions relating to the proceedings of the Assembly. Furthermore, the Speaker has authorised me to oversee the management of engagements relating to the Speaker's representational role, which will be undertaken between me and the Deputy Speakers in line with the normal practice. A copy of this letter will be placed in the library.

I want to make it clear to Members that I will, of course, be exercising these functions from a procedural and impartial perspective in the same way as would be expected of the Speaker. In recognition of that, I am taking steps to withdraw from my roles on Committees for the time being. In addition, I will not be speaking or voting in any plenary business on the Floor of the House until further notice.

The Deputy Speakers and I are grateful for the continuing cooperation of Members during this period. If Members have any issues that they wish to raise or discuss, they should approach the Speaker's Office in the usual manner. I know that Members and staff of the Assembly will join me again in wishing the Speaker well and hoping that his absence from the House is as short as possible.

Matter of the Day

Mitchel McLaughlin (Sinn Féin, South Antrim)

The Speaker has agreed that this matter was brought forward in the appropriate fashion. Mr Mike Nesbitt has been given leave to make a statement on the Scottish referendum result, which fulfils the criteria as set out in Standing Order 24. If other Members wish to be called, they should indicate that by rising in their places and continuing to do so. All Members called will have up to three minutes to speak on the subject. I remind Members that I will not take any points of order on this or any other matter until the item of business has finished.

Mike Nesbitt (UUP, Strangford)

I begin by repeating this party's best wishes to Speaker Hay for a full and speedy recovery.

I believe that it would be remiss for the House not to mark one of the most important constitutional votes anywhere in these islands in the last 300 years. Obviously, as unionists, we rejoice in and are delighted with the result. The case for Scottish independence was never made, and common sense has prevailed.

The links between Scotland and Northern Ireland cross every strand of our existence: cultural, sporting, political, economic. Earlier today, I was sent a construction assessment that stated that £7 billion of construction contracts were on hold as companies waited for the result of the independence vote, and local construction and engineering companies would no doubt have been among those that would have lost out had the vote been pro-independence.

During the campaign, I was dismayed to hear a leading proponent of independence criticise the Better Together campaign for patronising the Scots. He argued, "Didn't we, the Scots, bring the world the scientific and intellectual liberation called the Enlightenment?" It is a half-truth, and that is a dangerous thing, of course, because the man who inspired the Scottish Enlightenment was not a Scot but was Francis Hutcheson from Saintfield in County Down, who was born in 1694 to a family of Scottish-Irish descent. He was a man of immeasurable influence, counting among his students Adam Smith, who wrote 'The Wealth of Nations', and David Hume, who famously argued that desire rather than reason governed human nature.

Francis Hutcheson makes a case regarding ties that are rooted in that most important of all commodities: blood ties. Scots came to Ireland to become the Ulster Scots. They moved further west to become what the Americans now call the Scots-Irish, and the Scots-Irish have provided no fewer than 17 of the United States' 44 presidents. Admittedly, some may have slightly more tangential links than others, but the point is this: for countries the size of postage stamps on the world stage, Northern Ireland and Scotland together punch very much above their weight.

The United Kingdom is a family of nations. We are united through social, economic and cultural ties. We have a joint history of standing up for the weak and of facing down tyranny. It is a history that can never be erased and that will, I believe, continue to bind us together. Let us now go forward proudly and confidently into the inevitable debate that is coming concerning how we build an even better and greater Britain that is fit for the 21st century and a United Kingdom of which Northern Ireland is more solidly a part than ever before.

Gregory Campbell (DUP, East Londonderry)

Like Mr Nesbitt, I join in recognition of the decision by the people of Scotland to vote in the way that they did. That said, I and others made it very clear throughout the campaign and even before it started that it was entirely and exclusively a matter for the people of Scotland to decide on. Now that they have done so, it is appropriate that we should comment on that and, more importantly, outline what we see as our vision for the way forward with Scotland as a part of the United Kingdom.

The voting in the two principal cities is no coincidence in that the relatively more affluent Edinburgh was 61% no and the relatively less affluent Glasgow was 53% yes. The referendum was more to do with disaffection from central government and the sense of economic isolation from the south-east of England, and that can resonate with people in Northern Ireland.

Whatever the reasons, the people of Scotland have spoken and settled the matter. Now that they have, the issue becomes a UK-wide one, and the Prime Minister indicated his intention to proceed with changes throughout the UK. All of us must play our part in that, and, of course, to play our part in those changes, we need to be in the Parliament of the United Kingdom, where the table will be laid out for discussions about how and when changes will happen. Hopefully, everyone can play their part in that, and we will not have the position that some — namely Sinn Féin — adopt in which they complain when decisions are taken and then, when there is an option to try to change them, boycott the place where the changes will occur. So hopefully, we can move on. As I said, the Scotland referendum is now finished. It is done and dusted, and we now get down to the hard work of ensuring that people do not feel disaffected, irrespective of which part of this United Kingdom they live in and belong to.

Daithí McKay (Sinn Féin, North Antrim)

Go raibh maith agat, a Phríomh-LeasCheann Comhairle. All has changed, and changed utterly. I do not think that anybody could not agree that these islands have changed as a result of the result in Scotland.

What happened in Scotland was a true exercise in democracy. We saw 16- and 17-year-olds voting for the first time, and there is absolutely no reason that that franchise cannot be extended to here as well. We also saw a turnout of 85%, which is absolutely extraordinary by modern-day standards. Of course, politics should not be left to just the politicians. In terms of our future on this island and where the North's best interests lie, we should have the same debate. It was a healthy exercise in Scotland. There was some scaremongering, but, across the world, Scotland has been held up as a shining example of how to hold a mature debate about future governance. We should have a poll in Ireland about whether Ireland is better together and, like I said, no scaremongering.

The public in Scotland and the public here do not want their politicians to continue to bend the knee to the Tories and the British Treasury. There is a tendency for politicians here to accept whatever the Treasury says as gospel. If the Treasury says that we owe a certain amount of money, we will not even question it. The Scottish Government did question it and did their own figures, whereas the Department of Finance here does not want to know. That is not acting in our best interests or in the best interests of the public.

Of course, economic report after economic report — I think that there have been about 15 in recent years — shows that the North lacks fiscal levers and that it suffers because of that. Any figures for economic output and growth show that we continue to suffer, whilst the South, even with its difficulties, continues to have greater levels of growth. That is because we do not have the fiscal levers, and our fiscal policies are set at Westminster by the British Government in the interests of the island of Britain. We need to wise up to the fact that we need fiscal levers here. We need those levers to ensure that the policies set here are in the interests of the people in the North and are set with the realisation that we live on a different island and therefore need different policies.

Alex Attwood (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast West)

We also convey our best wishes to Speaker Hay.

Whatever the different views in the Chamber — that of Mr Nesbitt and others who are for the union and that of I and others who were for Scottish independence — we should first and foremost recognise the people of Scotland, the contribution that they have made and the gratitude that we owe them. The people of Scotland demonstrated the power of the democratic approach — what Alex Salmond referred to as the democratic and consented process. What they have achieved and how far they have travelled puts into sharp relief how little we have travelled because of those in our society on the state and non-state sides who, for many a long year, opposed the democratic approach and used coercion.

The people of Scotland have forever changed the character of politics and the nature of the union. Whether it be devo max, home rule or independence in the future, the people of Scotland, by the decisions that they took and the votes that they cast, have put all of that on the radar. From our point of view, we will argue for the maximisation of devolution here, and it is the people of Scotland who have opened the doors to all of that.

We also recognise the young people of Scotland. If people who are 16 and 17 can be given the opportunity to shape the constitution of their nation, they should also have the opportunity to shape the politics and government of their nation, and that applies to all parts of these islands.

We also owe a debt of gratitude to the SNP. More than any other party or Government, it has demonstrated the difference between being in government and being in power. The vote they got was recognition of that. People in our Government should draw conclusions from the power and success of what they have achieved if we are to follow likewise.

Finally, we should acknowledge Alex Salmond, because he created new standards for democracy, for leadership and for Governments. For all of that and for all of his colleagues in government, I think that we all owe him a lot.

David Ford (Alliance, South Antrim)

Mr Principal Deputy Speaker, on behalf of my colleagues, I echo your words of good wishes for the Speaker.

As Mr Nesbitt said, there is no doubt that the result of the Scottish referendum was a very significant event, but, by its nature, referenda or referendums, whichever way you put it, in the United Kingdom tend to be about significant matters —

Mike Nesbitt (UUP, Strangford)

Referenda.

David Ford (Alliance, South Antrim)

Try the Greek rather than the Latin, gentlemen.

They are significant issues because they are those that are put to the people, rather than being determined by those in legislatures. However, we also need to be clear that the victory for the Better Together campaign was not actually a victory for unionism over nationalism. It was a victory based on the promise of devo max from the two parties in the current Westminster Government and the party that might or might not be part of or form the next Government. That, because it was devo max and not just unionism and nationalism, is what has fundamentally altered the nature of relationships within these islands in general. There is no doubt that the Prime Minister recognised that at 7.00 am on Friday when he clearly addressed the issue of the English question.

However, it is also clear that it is a major issue for Wales and Northern Ireland. For example, we know that Wales is looking at potentially increasing its powers in the field of devolving justice and extricating itself from the Home Office and the Ministry of Justice's responsibilities. However, where are we in Northern Ireland? Unfortunately, in this place, we have a record of failure to deal with those difficult issues. We are currently running through a crisis because of our inabilities and our immaturity, so how could we possibly make a case for suggesting that we should be looking for additional powers until we seek to resolve those problems?

In his contribution, Mr McKay said that it was time that we wised up, which may or may not be parliamentary language. I tend to agree with him, but I do not know that it is in exactly the way in which he would have intended, because it seems to me that, at the moment, we have a complete immaturity on economics, which is matched by an irresponsibility on some of the issues around parades and flags, and we have a group of victims from the past who are utterly let down by our failure in this place to deal with the key issues for us. It is great to talk about what the Scots have achieved, but unless we are prepared to knuckle down and engage in real and meaningful talks here to solve our problems, then we have nothing to say.

There is an issue that will need a proper constitutional convention for the UK at some point. However, it is much more urgent for us to tackle the issues that confront this society, not just the financial issues but those that we failed to deal with at the end of last year, and start to show some leadership in this place.

Jim Allister (Traditional Unionist Voice, North Antrim)

I join in the best wishes to Mr Speaker. I trust that his health will radically improve.

I greatly welcome the result in Scotland and, unlike the union-agnostic Mr Ford, I recognise that it was a victory for the union and one that one very much appreciates and supports. It was good to see the canny, wise Scots refuse the invitation to break up the United Kingdom, and I believe that the cause of those who sought to break it up may well now wane in consequence.

The Prime Minister said that, after the referendum, there is a need for constitutional reform. He is probably right, but he would be totally wrong in so far as this House is concerned were he to say that this House, which cannot handle the powers that it has, needs more powers. This House does not need more powers. This House has structures that, in the words of the First Minister, are unfit for purpose, and therefore it is unable to handle even the powers that it has.

What this House needs is parity of democratic rights with the rest of the United Kingdom. There are components of Scotland and Wales's settlements that we take for granted. The very right to have an opposition is taken for granted in Edinburgh and Cardiff; indeed, it is taken for granted across the democratic world. Yet here, even that basic democratic right is denied in these institutions. On top of that, the people of Scotland and Wales have the basic democratic right to change their Government; to vote a party that they are disillusioned with out of government. Of course, because of the import of an unworkable mandatory coalition, we do not even have that right here. If the Prime Minister is talking about constitutional reform, he should start at the point where one infuses the democratic imperatives into the structures that we have in this House.

Mitchel McLaughlin (Sinn Féin, South Antrim)

The Member's time is almost up.

Jim Allister (Traditional Unionist Voice, North Antrim)

Let me be very clear: the enemies of Stormont are those who refuse to contemplate the democratisation of Stormont. That is who they are.

Sammy Wilson (DUP, East Antrim)

I also pass on my best wishes to the Speaker at this time.

I congratulate the people of Scotland for recognising the benefits of the union, despite the tartan terror tactics of the SNP during a very contentious referendum campaign: one that saw academics threatened; civil servants abusing their power; public meetings broken up; businessmen told that there would be consequences if they did not keep their mouths shut; and people afraid even to show their loyalties and where they stood for fear of having their property attacked. It was typical of the nasty face of nationalism. We have seen it in Northern Ireland, and the people of Scotland witnessed it during the referendum campaign.

Despite all of that, the people of Scotland saw the benefits of the union. They saw the security benefits in an unstable world, the economic benefits in a world with increasing globalisation and, of course, the historical benefits that have been reaped over a long period. We, in Northern Ireland, owe to many people in Scotland a great debt of gratitude for the way in which soldiers joined the British Army and defended the people of Northern Ireland against IRA terrorism and sacrificed their lives here. For that reason, we ought to be grateful: first, for the sacrifices made; and secondly, for the fact that the Scottish people have not only recognised in the past the importance of the union through their sacrifices but have voted on the importance of the union.

There is a message for the people of Northern Ireland in this, for those who might be enticed by a border poll. I am surprised that Sinn Féin wishes to have a border poll, given that 25% of its own supporters do not support its idea of a united Ireland. A vast majority of people here are in favour of the union. Of course, Sinn Féin will wish to divert attention away from its incompetence in this place — its economic incompetence, which, despite its hatred of the Tories in Westminster, means that it is happy to hand £9 million of our money back every month, rather than make decisions that have to be made in this House.

To the people of Northern Ireland, I say that the people of Scotland saw the benefits of the union. We in Northern Ireland know the benefits of the union.

Mitchel McLaughlin (Sinn Féin, South Antrim)

The Member's time is up.

Sammy Wilson (DUP, East Antrim)

In any border poll that there might be in the future, should there be one, I am sure that the people of Northern Ireland will make exactly the same decision as the people in Scotland.

Mitchel McLaughlin (Sinn Féin, South Antrim)

I beg your pardon; I was distracted by the last person to speak. I call Mr Jonathan Bell.

Jonathan Bell (DUP, Strangford)

I think that we were right to stay silent as the Scots made probably the most momentous decision of their generation or, as the Scottish First Minister, Alex Salmond, said, a decision that has been made for a lifetime. That does not mask or take away from the fact that many of us were passionately committed to the retention of the Union, but it was for the people of Scotland to decide. The Scots have chosen for their generation, for their lifetime, and I believe that they have chosen wisely.

Our great Union is a benefit for every part of our United Kingdom, and we are a greater place today with Scotland strongly within that Union. I come from a constituency where Ulster Scots has a profoundly deep, long-lasting and positive impact — many of our families, including my own, can trace our ancestry back to there. It is not just a temporal thing; the Union has benefited all of us through not only the generations but the lifetimes.

Like my colleague Mr Wilson, I pay tribute to the Scots who helped to protect democracy here; in particular, three Scottish soldiers who lost their lives when I was just a child, but also the many other Scottish soldiers who live with physical and psychological injury as a result of defeating terrorism and defeating the terrorists of democracy here in this part of the United Kingdom. We owe them a huge debt that we can never repay.

On economic, cultural, social and tourism grounds, the link of our Union is so profound, and it is to be celebrated that the Scots have chosen so wisely.

I listened to the — I would not say incompetent economics; I go a step further and say the incontinent economics of Sinn Féin. I never laughed as hard as when I heard one of its spokesmen talk this morning about how he was going to get £10 billion, which, by the way, is what we get extra from the Treasury compared to what we put into Her Majesty's Treasury. He was going to get that £10 billion back because he was going to cut the Civil List. It was comedy hour and completely economically incompetent, because the House is facing a whole range of Sinn Féin cuts: cuts to vulnerable people, cuts to disabled people, cuts to the National Health Service. These are Sinn Féin cuts that are being driven forward, and still they would like to draw a mask —

Mitchel McLaughlin (Sinn Féin, South Antrim)

The Member's time is almost up.

Jonathan Bell (DUP, Strangford)

— that they could get some £10 billion back. The Scots have chosen; they have chosen wisely; and we need to continue to proclaim the benefits of the Union, so secure here now in Northern Ireland.

John McCallister (UUP, South Down)

I join colleagues in wishing the Speaker a full and speedy recovery.

Like many colleagues here, I welcome Scotland's decision to stay within the United Kingdom. There is a general recognition that the outcome of this campaign has resulted in the Union entering a period of constitutional change. The Prime Minister's timetable for Scottish devolution also brings up the West Lothian question, and it means that this debate is happening now. We must get it right. We cannot act in haste and repent at leisure.

I ask these questions. Are the Northern Ireland Executive ready to participate in such a debate to get the best outcome for our citizens? Have the Executive even agreed any type of joint position on negotiating a new settlement for Northern Ireland within the United Kingdom? Were additional fiscal powers to be devolved, are the Northern Ireland Executive fit to deal with them and the responsibility that that would bring?

A little over a year ago, I set out what I called how you might deal with a road map to building a normal society. At the top of that was reforming the Assembly, getting a proper Government and opposition. We are seeing the need for that at the minute, with the paralysis in the Assembly and our Executive. We needed a fiscal powers commission to look at the various powers that we might devolve and their effects. Will the Executive's policy change if Scotland gets corporation tax powers? Where are we down the road, when Scotland and Wales have had Calman and Silk reporting?

Welfare illustrates the changes. Scotland is now looking for welfare to be devolved, and we are talking about not being able to deal with it. The First Minister suggested perhaps giving it back to Westminster. One of his predecessors also suggested that. We are going in the opposite direction with many of these things. Getting beyond tribal politics, how do we move away from the them-and-us politics? Sinn Féin talks about getting a border poll when it is failing even to operate this like a functioning Government and face up to its responsibilities on welfare reform.

The big difference that Scotland has had over the last 15 years of devolution is that it has had a functioning Parliament and Executive. That is in stark contrast to what we have done. At the minute, we look on being part of the Union as a right, not a responsibility. We need to face up to those responsibilities and to what being part of a great and modern United Kingdom means.

Alex Attwood (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast West)

On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. It is in relation to the comments that were made by Mr Wilson, who is on his phone at the moment. If somebody in the Chamber, in the course of a debate, commented on another political party involved in a political campaign in the following terms, referring to the SDLP's "green terror tactics", I would like to think that the Speaker would take action. During the course of the last half an hour, Mr Wilson referred to — Hansard will confirm this — the "tartan terror tactics of the SNP". I ask that you, as a matter of urgency, review the record of Hansard and rule on those comments. Those comments were made about a party that is exclusively democratic, as Mr Wilson knows because he sat in the room with it often enough in relation to issues of government and politics. I ask you, as a matter of urgency, to rule on that matter.

Sammy Wilson (DUP, East Antrim)

Further to that point of order, I hope that, when you are reviewing the comments that I made — let me repeat that it was not "green terror tactics" but "the tartan terror tactics of the SNP" — you will also review the comments that were made afterwards, which illustrated the kinds of tactics that were involved during the campaign and which clearly embarrass another nationalist party that has such great ties with the SNP.

Mitchel McLaughlin (Sinn Féin, South Antrim)

On this matter, I will consult Hansard and make a decision on that. People should not see it as an opportunity to draw the business of this House into whatever passed in the course of the referendum discussions and remarks or actions by parties that have no part in this Assembly.

Mike Nesbitt (UUP, Strangford)

On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. I am satisfied that "referendum" is a gerund of Latin extraction. Therefore, I encourage the Minister to use "referenda" when referring to the plural.

Mitchel McLaughlin (Sinn Féin, South Antrim)

I will take that as a point of information.

The House will take its ease while we change the top Table.

(Mr Deputy Speaker [Mr Dallat] in the Chair)

Ministerial Statement

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. With your permission, I will make a statement in compliance with section 58 of the 1998 Act regarding the twenty-fifth meeting of the North/South Ministerial Council in aquaculture and marine sectoral format. The meeting was held in Derry on Friday 27 June 2014. The Executive were represented by Minister Nelson McCausland and me. The Irish Government were represented by Fergus O'Dowd TD, the then Minister of State at the Department of Communications, Energy and Natural Resources. Minister Rabbitte was unable to attend the meeting. I chaired the meeting.

This statement has been agreed with Minister McCausland, and I am making it on behalf of us both.

Ministers congratulated John Pollock, who was appointed chief executive of the Loughs Agency. The Council received a progress report on the work of the Loughs Agency from its chairperson, Winston Patterson, and the chief executive.

Ministers welcomed progress on the activities of the Loughs Agency, including its ongoing conservation and protection efforts and participation in Operation Salar, which is the result of a multi-agency approach to tackle fish poaching and protect fish stocks. The PSNI is working alongside the Partnership for Action Against Wildlife Crime, the Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure and the Loughs Agency to enforce fishing regulations and educate the public on fishing and the importance of protecting fish stocks.

We also heard of the agency's participation in the planting of over 5,000 native broadleaf trees of various species in the Glenshane Pass area as part of the climate change adaptation initiative.

The Council welcomed the report on the activities of the Loughs Agency in promoting and marketing Foyle and Carlingford loughs, including the Foyle Maritime Festival 2014, angling development and promotion, the delivery of INTERREG IVa programmes, the provision of a portable event platform for Carlingford lough, various food festivals and other tourism initiatives.

I pay tribute to the Loughs Agency staff, Derry City Council and all those involved in the Maritime Festival 2014, which saw the return of the prestigious Clipper Round the World Yacht Race to the city. That event was an outstanding success.

We were told how the Loughs Agency has developed a number of initiatives to animate the River Foyle and provide local people and visitors with an opportunity to experience the river and learn more about its history and biodiversity. That programme will include education and outreach to local schools in Limavady, Derry and Donegal as well as an adult education programme of lectures, which will be delivered as part of walking, bus and canoe tours.

As part of their joint marketing activities, the Loughs Agency, the Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure and Inland Fisheries Ireland continue to attend a number of trade shows annually, at home and abroad, that are aimed at boosting Irish angling tourism. For 2014-15, a number of shows have been identified as targets, which will see angling promoted in a number of European countries as well as closer to home. We received an update on the drafting of regulations by the Loughs Agency, which will require NSMC approval in late 2014. The draft legislation will also come before the Agriculture and Rural Development Committee.

I am also very pleased to report that steady progress has been made on the management agreement between the Loughs Agency and the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine. The Loughs Agency chaired a meeting on 29 May with relevant Departments and agencies to start a discussion on the operational issues associated with the development of the management agreement. The interdepartmental group that is examining the long-standing jurisdictional issues and other issues also met on 29 May. The group received an update on the significant challenges being faced in resolving those issues and is considering possible ways to progress matters.

The Loughs Agency is arranging further meetings with the agencies of the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine in that context and to consider proposals relating to the operational issues that may arise from the transfer of aquaculture licensing and development functions to the agency. Ministers also received an update on the progress of the IBIS research projects, angling development and the very successful recent angling conference.

The Council approved the continuation of the framework designed to support the Loughs Agency in dealing with emergencies, such as a serious pollution incident, for a further period of one year, with effect from 20 July 2014, and agreed to review the operation of this procedure before 20 July 2015.

One of the highlights of the sectoral meeting was the presentation that Ministers received from the Loughs Agency on the Foyle ambassador project. That project brought 12 young people from different communities from across the city together for a 10-week environmental programme, in conjunction with St Columb's Park House. Funding was provided by the Office of the First Minister and deputy First Minister and Co-operation Ireland. Loughs Agency staff developed a programme that focused on personal and skills development, with a view to improving the young people's outlook on their future goals. The initiative had a strong environmental theme, with a focus on the River Foyle. The young people received an increased understanding of biodiversity and the value of Lough Foyle in recreation and commercial use. They were involved in water-based activities such as canoeing, angling and power boating as well as leadership and personal development sessions.

I thank and pay tribute to the Loughs Agency staff and the local anglers and others from Lough Foyle who willingly gave of their time to educate and mentor the 12 young people. From the presentation, I know how much the young people got out of this unique and worthwhile project. I congratulate each and every one of them and wish them well in the future.

The Foyle ambassador project shows what can be done to bring young people from different backgrounds and skills together, and the Loughs Agency is looking at ways to roll that very successful project out to other areas.

The Council welcomed the report on the activities of the Loughs Agency in promoting and marketing Foyle and Carlingford loughs, including the Foyle Maritime Festival 2014 and angling development, which I mentioned earlier. Those activities also included the delivery of INTERREG IVa programmes, the provision of a portable event platform for Carlingford lough, food festivals, the greenway project at Carlingford and the Foyle and Carlingford sailability projects. We also heard that arrangements are under way for an all-island aquaculture shellfish conference to take place in June next year.

The NSMC approved the Loughs Agency's corporate plan 2014-16, the business plan 2014 and noted the relevant budget provisions. We also noted the agency's annual report and draft financial statements for 2013 and that, following certification of the financial statements by the Comptrollers and Auditors General, they will be laid before the Assembly and the Oireachtas.

The Council approved the determination made by the Loughs Agency to amend the Foyle Fisheries Commission Pension (Amendment) Scheme 1979. The Council also approved the Loughs Agency (Foyle Fisheries Commission) Pension (Amendment No.3) Scheme 2014, which is to allow for employee contribution rates to be increased, and that this amended scheme shall apply to the body.

Following a request from the Health Minister, I was pleased to present the Food Safety Promotion Board's corporate plan 2014-16 and its business plan for 2014. The Council approved both plans and noted the recommended budget provision and indicative budgets for 2015 and 2016.

The Council agreed to meet again in aquaculture and marine sectoral format in late autumn.

Paul Frew (DUP, North Antrim)

The Minister will be aware that I have constantly asked about the lack of a management agreement for the seabed leasing in Lough Foyle and when that issue will be resolved. There are references in the statement, of course, about steady progress. Can the Minister elaborate on that steady progress and give us a likely date for the agreement to be finalised?

Paragraph 14 refers to the drafting of regulations to come to the Committee for Agriculture and Rural Development at some stage. Can the Minister be more specific and provide details of what those regulations will legislate for?

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

I thank the Member for his question. I want to reassure the Member and the House that I have given the Loughs Agency my full support as it attempts to finalise the management agreement with the relevant Department in the South. As I said in the statement, I am grateful to Minister Pat Rabbitte and his officials for their effort in helping us to progress the management agreement in conjunction with the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine.

There has been a lot of significant progress, particularly around the fact that the Loughs Agency chaired a working meeting on 29 May with the relevant Departments, Bord Iascaigh Mhara and the Sea-Fisheries Protection Authority to start a discussion on the roll-out of the operational issues associated with the development of the management agreement. The interdepartmental group also met on 29 May to discuss other issues.

The agency is proactively arranging other meetings with the relevant agencies to consider the proposals, particularly in relation to operational issues. We are very confident that we are coming to the end of the discussions and will be able to move forward with the final management arrangement, which will be brought back to a future NSMC meeting, perhaps even the next one.

I believe that we will discuss the legislation further at the next NSMC meeting and are looking towards the end of this year for the Committee to discuss the regulations. Obviously, the Committee will be briefed in detail in due course as that comes up.

Declan McAleer (Sinn Féin, West Tyrone)

Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. I want to place on record my appreciation of the work of the Loughs Agency and congratulate the new chief executive on his appointment. The Minister referred to the great work that young people have been doing as part of the Foyle ambassador project. Are there any plans to continue and extend that work?

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

Yes, and thank you for the words of encouragement. As I said, I congratulate all those involved and those who willingly gave up their time. It really was an effective project.

When I watched the promotional video, which the young people put together themselves, on the outworkings of the project, I could see the benefit of it. These were young people from across the city of Derry who perhaps had never engaged with members of other communities. At the end of the programme, they certainly had got an awful lot out of it, so I hope that it will be rolled out further. I have asked the Loughs Agency to consider all that.

We were fortunate in that we received funding through OFMDFM and Co-operation Ireland. We are looking to them again but also to other funders to allow us to roll out the project on a wider scale and into other areas, because the benefits were clear to be seen.

People got an understanding of themselves through their own personal development, and they also had an education in biodiversity and the environment in a fun way but also in a very practical way because they were out lifting rubbish and taking part in all sorts of activities. I certainly want to see it continued and enhanced and ensure that we can get as many young people as possible on board for future roll-out of it.

Joe Byrne (Social Democratic and Labour Party, West Tyrone)

I thank the Minister for the statement. Can the Minister state what implications there are for the budget of the agency going forward in relation to its activities? Secondly, can the Minister enlighten us on whether it is her intention to broaden the spectrum of opinion on the board so that more of the fishermen who fish with rods or anglers are represented on it?

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

On the budget position, as I set out, we had agreed our corporate plan and the business plan, and the draft financial statements were all set out at the last NSMC meeting. The Member will be aware that we have set out very clearly our key objectives around conservation and the protection of the fisheries in the Foyle and Carlingford loughs: licensing and developing aquaculture; developing marine tourism and angling; and effectively and efficiently delivering on its statutory mandate and responsibilities. The NSMC meeting approved the business plan and the spending plan, and both plans were approved by the Finance Ministers, North and South. Obviously, they are now on the public record.

I absolutely appreciate that the Loughs Agency is working within a tight budget, as are all Departments and agencies, so there certainly are financial constraints, particularly as income has dropped for the Loughs Agency due to a shortfall of applications for angling licences. So, the board and the chief executive are looking at how they can make efficiency savings, and they have set out in the corporate plan how they plan to deliver 4% efficiency savings going forward.

On your point around fisheries, such an amount of work has gone into promoting angling and education around angling, so we want to make sure that, in moving forward with the work of the Loughs Agency, fishermen have to be represented on the board. They very much have to be given a voice on decisions moving forward, and I have made that very clear to the Loughs Agency. I know that it has made improvements over the last number of years, particularly in that representation. I am sure that that will continue.

Tom Elliott (UUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

I thank the Minister for the update. She talked about an initiative to deal with fish poaching, and I wonder how widespread fish poaching is in the area. Have there been many prosecutions in regard to it in that particular area?

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

There have been particular issues down through the years with poaching, and the Member will probably be aware that we have had attacks on staff as well whilst they are out trying to protect the fisheries stock. Thankfully, this year, we have seen a dramatic fall in those numbers. We have had no new cases of attacks on staff this year, which is to be very much welcomed. The operation that I talked about in the statement is called Operation Salar, and it involves cross-agency working. It involves the PSNI, the Loughs Agency, DCAL and the Partnership for Action Against Wildlife Crime all coming together, and that has been very effective in dealing with poaching. I do not have the figures on poaching, but I am very happy to provide them to the Member. As I said, we are absolutely delighted that the number of attacks on staff who are protecting the loughs has decreased.

Kieran McCarthy (Alliance, Strangford)

I thank the Minister for her statement. Item 29 refers to the relevant budget provisions, and item 33 talks about indicative budget provisions. Can the Minister assure the Assembly that, given the very serious financial situation across the island, there will be sufficient budgets to carry out the duties that the Loughs Agency is set up to do?

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

For clarity, point 29 refers to the NSMC's approval of the Loughs Agency corporate plan and business plan, but, in point 33, I presented a paper on behalf of the Health Minister in relation to the Food Safety Promotion Board's corporate plan, which is why it is referred to as indicative. I can assure the Member that, as I said earlier, we have approved a budget, and the chief executive and the board are working to live within their budget. Obviously, it is a difficult financial climate for everybody, but I am confident that it will be able to achieve the savings that it has set out to achieve and that it will have the budget. Of course it would always want more money, and who would not? As I said, for rolling out projects such as the Foyle ambassador project youth scheme, we are looking towards other funding sources that would complement the Loughs Agency budget.

William Irwin (DUP, Newry and Armagh)

Paragraph 13 refers to the joint marketing activities between the Loughs Agency and DCAL, based on boosting angling tourism, which I welcome. Will the Minister outline how much money the Loughs Agency contributes to that, what the outputs of that activity are expected to be and how her Department will evaluate whether that type of marketing activity has a real impact?

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

We have a beautiful natural resource, and we are really trying to market it. Loughs Agency staff go to other European countries to promote what we have to offer and to try to encourage anglers to come forward. We have been successful in achieving a number of international angling competitions. All that is very positive, but we need to do more to promote what we have. That is ongoing work. Loughs Agency staff are absolutely committed to making sure that they take forward the promotion of the Foyle and Carlingford areas.

Next year, we have an aquaculture conference, which will be significant in looking at the challenges for growers and what we can do to assist them. There is very positive ongoing work, and that will continue. I do not have a breakdown of the money that we spend on marketing with me, but I am happy to provide it to the Member. As I said, the group is very active in promoting the tourism potential. The fact that we have been involved with the clipper race for a second year is fantastic. It also does great educational work with young people about what they have on their doorstep. There is quite a lot of positive work.

Oliver McMullan (Sinn Féin, East Antrim)

Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. I congratulate the Minister on her statement. Paragraph 15 refers to the management agreement and the steady progress being made. Will you give us more detail on the progress being made?

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

As I said, quite a large body of work has been taken forward to make sure that all the partners to the management agreement are on the same page. As I said, I want to reassure Members that we are doing all we can to make sure that I give the Loughs Agency my full support in an attempt to finalise the management agreement. We are hopeful that we will be able to do that towards the end of the year. There is a lot of ongoing work and operational meetings so that we are able to iron out any differences or kinks.

Tom Buchanan (DUP, West Tyrone)

I note from paragraph 12 that the Loughs Agency has developed a number of initiatives along the River Foyle, with an educational programme in schools in places such as Limavady, Londonderry and Donegal. Are there any plans to widen the horizon and extend that programme to schools outside those areas?

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

Obviously, we work within the Foyle catchment area. As I said, fantastic educational work is being done, and we often get presentations on its roll-out. The number of people who visit both centres is fantastic. We are always looking at how we can expand it and whom we can reach. Expansion is an ongoing operational issue for the Loughs Agency.

Seán Rogers (Social Democratic and Labour Party, South Down)

I thank the Minister for her statement. With reference to paragraph 19, Minister, what are the implications for the local aquaculture industry with the transfer of licensing and development functions to the agency? In particular, will we have more consistency on both sides of the lough?

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

The aim is to get to that position, and the management agreement will allow us to do that. To make it fair for everybody, there should be only one licensing system. The principle behind taking that forward is to have one consistent system. At next year's aquaculture conference, we will look at, among many other things, disease prevention and control. We need to focus R&D funding. I know that the Member has concerns about oyster growers and the problems that they have suffered, particularly in Carlingford. There is great potential for us to scope things out and improve things for those growers.

Jim Allister (Traditional Unionist Voice, North Antrim)

The resource accounts for the Minister's Department for last year show that, on three occasions, the Minister made payments to the Loughs Agency without DFP approval, as is required by the 1999 legislation, and that she therefore made irregular payments amounting to over £1·8 million to the Loughs Agency. Has the Minister desisted from that practice? Is she now committed to complying with the law of the land and to seeking DFP approval for payments to the Loughs Agency and any other cross-border body?

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

I am aware that concerns were raised by DFP in terms of the regularity of expenditure incurred since the outset of the Loughs Agency's financial year and the approval of its business plan. Similar concerns were raised with other Departments and, as far as I am aware, the matter is still under consideration and discussion. However, in addition to the 2014 business plan being approved by Finance Ministers and the NSMC in June, a draft 2015 business plan has already been prepared, with a view to having all the necessary approvals in place before the start of the Loughs Agency's financial year, which is 1 January 2015. So, I assure the Member that I am committed to doing things properly.

Committee Business

Paul Givan (DUP, Lagan Valley)

I beg to move

That, in accordance with Standing Order 33(4), the period referred to in Standing Order 33(2) be extended to 27 March 2015, in relation to the Committee Stage of the Justice Bill (NIA 37/11-15).

The Committee Stage of the Justice Bill began on 25 June. The Bill is wide-ranging and diverse, consisting of 92 clauses. There are six schedules to the Bill, which is divided into nine parts. It has three main policy aims, which are to improve services for victims and witnesses; to speed up the justice system; and to improve the efficiency and effectiveness of key aspects of the system.

Some of the key areas covered by the Bill include the creation of violent offences prevention orders; the establishment of victim and witness charters providing statutory entitlements for information provision and treatment; changes to committal proceedings; a single jurisdiction for County Courts and Magistrates' Courts; and streamlined arrangements for the disclosure of criminal records.

As I indicated at Second Stage, the Committee particularly welcomes the provisions relating to victims and witnesses that are as a result of the Committee's inquiry into the criminal justice services available to victims and witnesses of crime and that aim to redress the balance in the system and ensure that improved services are provided for them.

To assist its scrutiny of the Bill, the Committee has sought views from an extensive range of organisations and key stakeholders. It has placed notices in the local newspapers and on the Assembly website. The Committee has also taken the opportunity to seek views on a range of amendments that the Department has indicated that it intends to bring forward at Consideration Stage, including an amendment that Mr Jim Wells MLA advised the Committee at the meeting on 2 July that he intends to move at Consideration Stage and an amendment proposed by the Attorney General for Northern Ireland that the Committee first considered in the context of the Legal Aid and Coroners' Courts Bill. Given that there was not sufficient time to scrutinise it fully, we agreed to return to it at the next legislative opportunity.

The amendments from the Department relate to a range of issues, including the exchange of information between Access NI and the Disclosure and Barring Service in Great Britain; a proposal to introduce a mechanism to enable those whose convictions or diversionary disposals have not been filtered from Access NI checks to ask for a review of such decisions; and providing for the sharing of victim information for the purposes of offering victims access to services.

The Attorney General has the power, under section 14(1) of the Coroners Act (Northern Ireland) 1959, to direct an inquest where he considers it "advisable" to do so but has no powers to obtain papers or information that may be relevant to the exercise of that power. He has experienced some difficulty in recent years in securing access to documents that he has needed, and his proposed amendment to the 1959 Act would confer on him a power to obtain papers and provide a clear statutory basis for disclosure. He has indicated that the principal focus of his concern is deaths that occur in hospital or where there is otherwise a suggestion that medical error may have occurred.

Mr Jim Wells’s amendment is intended to restrict lawful abortions to National Health Service premises, except in cases of urgency when access to such premises is not possible and where no fee is paid. The amendment also provides an additional option to existing legislation for a period of up to 10 years imprisonment and a fine on conviction upon indictment.

The Committee received 45 submissions, many of which comment on, and raise issues about, the various clauses in, and schedules to, the Bill or the proposed amendments that I have outlined. Several more submissions are due in this week. There have also been a number of petitions and responses from individuals and over 20,000 postcards received supporting Mr Wells's amendment.

Given the level of interest in the Bill and the amendments, members agreed at the meeting on 10 September to seek an extension to the Committee Stage until 27 March 2015.

While the Committee supports the overall aims of the Bill, this extension will provide sufficient time to take oral evidence, which the Committee intends to start in November, carry out robust scrutiny of the detail contained in the clauses and schedules and compile and agree the Committee report as well as enabling the Committee to consider a range of other important justice issues that are not related to the Bill during this time, such as current budget pressures, further reforms to both criminal and civil legal aid and other Bills to be introduced by the Department of Justice. The Committee will report to the Assembly on the Bill as soon as possible within the proposed deadline of 27 March 2015.

I will speak very briefly not as Chair of the Committee. The Committee received an overwhelming response to the amendment that it agreed to consult on, which is the one in the name of Mr Jim Wells. Members will be familiar with the amendment from when Mr Elliott, Mr Maginness, Mr Allister, other members and I brought it forward and a majority in the House supported it. This is now a second opportunity to do so, because a number of people indicated that there was not enough time to scrutinise it. We received over 30,000 responses from the public wanting the amendment to be enacted. The Committee will now have an opportunity to carry out the scrutiny of it, and I trust that the Assembly will then be given the opportunity to consider it once again after we have carried out the scrutiny work. We will take another vote on it. I trust that those Members who opposed it last time, because they did not have enough time, will be able to use the process properly and scrutinise it. Then, we will get another opportunity to take this forward.

I believe that the responses on that particular amendment were singularly the greatest number that any Committee has ever received in the history of the Assembly, so we should not underestimate its importance to the public. Mr Ford, the Minister, indicated at the time of this legislation, over a year ago, that he would consult on that very issue. In over a year — indeed, almost 18 months later — David Ford, the Minister of Justice, has failed to act in any way to deal with what the majority of the Assembly voted for, so this Committee has now decided that we will need to do the work that he should have been doing. I trust that when it comes to the Floor of the Assembly, Members will have had due time to give it proper consideration. I commend the motion to the House.

Question put and agreed to.

Resolved:

That, in accordance with Standing Order 33(4), the period referred to in Standing Order 33(2) be extended to 27 March 2015, in relation to the Committee Stage of the Justice Bill (NIA 37/11-15).

Private Members' Business

John Dallat (Social Democratic and Labour Party, East Londonderry)

The next item on the Order Paper is a motion on development proposals from the Western Education and Library Board. The Business Committee has agreed to allow up to one hour and 30 minutes for the debate. The proposer of the motion will have 10 minutes to propose and 10 minutes to make a winding-up speech. One amendment has been selected and is published on the Marshalled List. The proposer will have 10 minutes to propose the amendment and five minutes to make a winding-up speech. All other speakers will have five minutes.

Maurice (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

I beg to move

That this Assembly notes development proposals 260, 261 and 262 by the Western Education and Library Board regarding the proposed closure of the Collegiate Grammar School and Portora Royal School; commends the staff and pupils of both schools for the excellent GSCE and A-level results achieved again this year; and requires the Minister of Education to reject the development proposals and seek consensus on the future of these schools with broad community support.

Members will no doubt have noted that the motion refers to development proposals 260, 261 and 262 from the Western Education and Library Board. Those proposals, if carried through, would not only close the Collegiate Grammar School but would have far-reaching implications for the future of post-primary education in the controlled voluntary sector in County Fermanagh as a whole. The establishment of a new co-educational, non-denominational, voluntary grammar school operating on a split site, incorporating Portora Royal School, is envisaged. The proposals are being pushed ahead, sadly, without consensus. Surely, this is something that the Minister wants to divert some of his attention to. I am firmly of the view that such controversial proposals should have, as a starting point, consensus and broad community support.

At this point, I would like to congratulate the Collegiate and the Portora Royal schools on their achievements in providing education in County Fermanagh that is of an excellent standard.

I will lay out the main areas of concern in relation to the process to date. First, the process itself lacks public accountability. That is surely something that the Minister will, I hope, attempt to address when he speaks later. Secondly, the rationale that seeks to underpin the process does not stand up to scrutiny. Thirdly, the proposals seek to close a highly successful, oversubscribed grammar school, which has a reputation that is second to none, and the removal of the Collegiate would result in an inequality of opportunity for the young people of County Fermanagh. Fourthly, the current Programme for Government states that building a united community, improving community relations and promoting shared education are its key proposals. It is my firm view that the process of the Western Education and Library Board's proposals falls far short of all those objectives.

I implore the Minister, before the proposals are adopted, to ensure that careful consideration is given to the expressed will of the boards of governors, staff, parents and pupils and the strong opposition from the community as a whole. It appears that there is a determined attempt to set one school against another. That is a most unfortunate fallout from the whole episode.

In my opinion, the amendment to the motion is, at least, mischievous. An attempt to introduce Devenish College into the debate is, to say the least, unhelpful. To divide and conquer seems to be the motive.

The Western Education and Library Board approved the publication of the proposals in full awareness of the strength of opposition expressed in its own consultation process in March and April this year. One can only ask this question: why the determination to push ahead with proposals that are inherently unpopular and so much out of step with the whole community?

I want to bring to the attention of the Assembly some other issues. There are significant issues of accountability around the Fermanagh Protestant Board of Education (FPBE), which, under the proposals, would be the body that would act as trustee of the new school. A recent open letter in the local press asked a few pertinent questions and asked it to: make public the scheme that sets out such powers and responsibilities; indicate when the current members were elected and the length of time for which they will hold office, in the light of the statement in earlier correspondence in the press from the FPBE that it is made up of people elected through the representative processes of what are called the three traditional Churches, namely the Presbyterian Church, Methodist Church and Church of Ireland; outline the channels of communication between the elected representatives and the church communities from which they come; and indicate whether, at any level, those members consider themselves accountable to the members of their denomination throughout County Fermanagh. That was the content of the open letter, which was, I think, very significant.

What was the reply? Alas, there was no reply. And we have to beg this question: why would that be? Why could that body not stand up and address the questions of concern that were posed not once but twice? We still await a reply.

It is my opinion — I suspect that it is the opinion of many in the House — that the non-negotiable factors in the ongoing process against which any proposals are judged would have to ensure the quality of educational experience in its widest sense for all young people; the quality of curricular provision, which meets the needs of all the young people in the area; and the quality of outcome. I believe that those are the important factors that need to be addressed.

One of the most worrying aspects of these proposals is the fact that, if they were carried through, a highly successful school could be closed against the expressed will of its board of governors, staff, parents, pupils and a very significant section of the wider community. In my opinion, it is quite clear that area planning lacks public confidence. The need of young people should always be the motivating factor. Nothing else can be the issue; and that does not appear to be the case here. The outcome of any process must surely be threefold: the quality of educational experience; the quality of curricular provision; and the quality of outcomes.

It appears to many, particularly in County Fermanagh, that the Western Education and Library Board's proposals 260, 261 and 262 will not be achieved. Some have attempted — this is where we part company with those who support the amendment — to sow seeds of confusion and have introduced Devenish College into the whole debate. I feel that that is unfortunate, and I believe that it has been done deliberately to confuse. The Minister is already on record as saying that, irrespective of the outcome in relation to Portora and the Collegiate, Devenish goes ahead. According to the Minister, that decision has already been made. Today, I would like him to reiterate that and state, quite clearly, as he has done in the past, that Devenish is not part of this debate. It has been agreed that a new school will be provided. We would also like to hear from the Minister today the date for the commencement of the Devenish development. We have asked that question before and have tried to push the Minister on it to give some definitive dates for when that will commence. Today is an opportunity for the Minister to put that one completely to bed and give us a date for when the Devenish project will commence. I believe that, in doing so, the Minister can take a lot of the confusion and discord out of a debate that has been going on for so long.

I ask the Minister to take on board the fact that this is not finding support from across the community, in particular from those who will be affected most by it.

I look forward to hearing what others have to say about the motion. My party will not support the amendment.

Christopher Hazzard (Sinn Féin, South Down)

I beg to move the following amendment:

Leave out all after "Portora Royal School" and insert

"and the creation of a new school; commends the staff and pupils of both schools for the excellent GCSE and A-level results achieved again this year; and calls on the Minister of Education to ensure that his decision on these development proposals ensures that all the young people served by the controlled sector in Enniskillen are given equality of access to high-quality education, including the provision of a new build for Devenish College."

Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. I start by thanking the Business Office for accepting the amendment. Unlike the original motion, our amendment is inclusive of all the educational needs of the young people in Fermanagh, not merely a few. Indeed, it reflects the feelings of local people on the ground in Fermanagh who are somewhat disturbed that the interests of the few may marginalise those of the silent majority. That is exactly where the DUP is going wrong.

The DUP needs to answer a few questions here today, starting off with — no less important — this: who did the DUP consult in bringing this motion forward today? Is this simply a hobby horse for Mrs Foster? We keep being reminded when we look at the media that the Collegiate is her old school, as if, for some reason, that nugget of information helps the educational interests of the young people in Fermanagh going forward in the years ahead. It simply does not. That is what the DUP should be doing: examining and championing what is in the educational interests of all the young people in Fermanagh in the years ahead, not the narrow, institutional interests of a particular school or a particular board of governors.

Arlene Foster (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

Will the Member give way?

Christopher Hazzard (Sinn Féin, South Down)

I will indeed.

Arlene Foster (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

Will the Member acknowledge that the email from the email account of Mr Morton, which I assume he is referring to, also refers to the fact that various meetings took place between me, Mr Elliott of the Ulster Unionist Party and all the heads of the boards of governors of the Collegiate, Portora, Devenish and the then Lisnaskea High School, which, as we know, was closed very recently? Because no consensus was found at those meetings, it has been decided that they will go ahead regardless of the fact that there is no consensus. Is the Member saying that we should not continue to find consensus, or is he just saying that, because two schools have decided on a way forward, the other schools should just sit back and say nothing?

Christopher Hazzard (Sinn Féin, South Down)

I thank the Minister for her intervention. What I would say is —

Arlene Foster (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. I am sitting on the Back Bench for a reason: I am not the Minister in this debate.

John Dallat (Social Democratic and Labour Party, East Londonderry)

I am sure that the Member will take note of that.

Christopher Hazzard (Sinn Féin, South Down)

I have taken note of the point that has been raised.

Around consensus — this is what the DUP needs to take on board — when you talk about broad community support, it is about engaging with the broad community, not one particular school or one particular board of governors, and that is exactly where it has gone wrong on this.

I will come back to other correspondence, because no doubt the Member has obviously received the correspondence as well. The motion calls on the Minister to:

"seek consensus ... with broad community support".

Yet from what we have heard today and, indeed, from the correspondence that we have received, it is the DUP that appears to be running away from this notion of broad community consensus.

I just want to read from a piece of correspondence that Mrs Foster referred to. It is another piece of correspondence that we received on behalf of the boards of governors of Portora and Devenish College. It reads:

"As the Chairs of the Boards of Governors of Portora Royal School and Devenish College respectively, we have been instructed by our Boards of Governors to make it clear that: the motion relating to Development Proposals 260, 261 and 262 (which Proposals have significant consequences for post-primary education in non-denominational schools in County Fermanagh) has not been discussed with either of our schools by the individuals tabling the motion".

If you are looking for broad consensus and community support, you would think that you would go and talk to the very people who will be affected by a resolution. The DUP has failed to do that, but we should not be surprised that it has failed to do so.

It goes on to say:

"the Development Proposals in question have the unanimous support of both of our Boards of Governors".

I am not going to stand here —

Sean Lynch (Sinn Féin, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

I thank the Member for giving way. Does he agree with me that it is important that the educational needs of Devenish College are taken into consideration? Go raibh maith agat.

Christopher Hazzard (Sinn Féin, South Down)

I thank the Member for his intervention. I agree 100%. This is what area planing is all about. We need to get it into our heads that, when a decision is taken in one particular school, it has an impact on all the schools in the area. Time and time again, the DUP fails to bring that point to the forefront of its mind, so I thank the Member for raising it.

As a Member for South Down, I am not going to stand here and dictate to the people of Fermanagh what is the best way forward for their young people, but one thing is for sure, and that is that, whatever decision is made, it must be made in the interests of all the children. We must cherish all our children, and not simply a few.

So where is the mention of Devenish College in all this? The DUP runs away from it. It thinks that it confuses the matter to raise it and to talk about other children in the education and library board area. Do the pupils at Devenish College not matter to the DUP?

Arlene Foster (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

Will the Member give way?

Christopher Hazzard (Sinn Féin, South Down)

Does it not care about them?

Arlene Foster (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

Will the Member give way?

Christopher Hazzard (Sinn Féin, South Down)

No. We have heard enough from the other side.

The DUP's vision — this is an important point — will do nothing for tackling educational inequality and, indeed, underachievement in the Enniskillen and Fermanagh area. Recently, the Education Committee heard about the differentials in achievement between Protestant boys and Protestant girls, and everything else. What the DUP wants to do today is run away from problems like that. It is not prepared to tackle the causes. The DUP wants to talk about educational underachievement among boys. I am glad that the Member for North Belfast is here, because the Shankill is one of the areas where this is most pertinent. The DUP runs away from reform of the common funding formula, but that is very same formula that has pumped millions into the Shankill, which we see the DUP welcome.

The DUP needs to decide whether it is going to stand up and show real leadership on an issue.

Mervyn Storey (DUP, North Antrim)

Will the Member give way?

Christopher Hazzard (Sinn Féin, South Down)

No, I have heard enough from the other side.

Here is a chance to stand up for all the children in Fermanagh and put down plans that are in their best interests for years to come, and not to get behind what appears to be one particular Member's hobby horse and stand up for one particular school.

I want to turn now to the correspondence received from the principal, which was mentioned by Mrs Foster. I am sure that other Members want to speak about it, but I want to speak about the issue of duplication and replication of resources. In 2012, 20 subjects were accessed by just eight pupils at AS level and 22 subjects were accessed by eight pupils at A2 level. We need to ask ourselves whether that is the best use of educational resources. Are the children who attend those classes getting the best they can from those classrooms?

I want to finish by addressing the notion that we would be losing the Collegiate; that, somehow, the Collegiate will disappear into the ether. This is absolutely not the case because the Collegiate would gain. The bright young minds at the Collegiate now would be challenged by more bright young minds, which can only be good for the educational interests of all the people in Fermanagh.

I ask all the parties to support the amendment.

Seán Rogers (Social Democratic and Labour Party, South Down)

The SDLP strongly believes that parental choice is the cornerstone of an effective education system and it cannot be overlooked. We are committed to the establishment of an education system that will provide an enriching and holistic education for all our young people.

In order to make well-informed decisions on the best educational route for our children, parents must have as diverse a range of schools as possible from which to choose, be they integrated, state, Irish-medium or faith-based schools. Yet, the present development proposals will result in the loss of two single-sex schools in the area. That is an option that a number of parents are passionate about and, evidently, are determined to retain.

A document produced by the Collegiate action group highlighted that the proposal:

"will reduce further the number of post-primary schools in the controlled/voluntary sector in Fermanagh from the original six to two."

Parents would have less choice, which certainly needs to be addressed.

I can only begin to understand this situation if I switch it to a south Down scenario. I will treat all comments with respect but particularly those of Members from Fermanagh, and I look forward to hearing others. However, it is rather disconcerting that other schools that may be affected by these proposals were not consulted by the proposers of the motion beforehand. In fact, I would not have been surprised had the motion been withdrawn. I would have expected the proposers of the motion to have sought consensus from the community. It is certainly worth mentioning that the development proposals have the support of Portora and Devenish.

Irrespective of the motion or the amendment, we need to carefully consider the strategy that benefits all the pupils. Parental choice and the views of the local community should be at the forefront of the Minister's mind when making this decision. Failure to do so will have a negative impact on relationships between the Department of Education and the local community; that would benefit no one.

The Collegiate action group has plainly and repeatedly voiced its concerns about this amalgamation. The 7,000-strong petition that was delivered to the Assembly in June this year clearly demonstrates the depth of local feeling and the clear opposition that exists towards this development.

The Collegiate Grammar School, Portora Royal School and Devenish College have played a key role in the education of the community. Any attempt to diminish or distort this must be handled with extreme caution. Full consideration must be given to the potential detrimental effects across the wider community. I share the concerns of the principal of the Collegiate when she says that the words:

"seek consensus on the future of these schools with broad community support"

have been deleted in the Sinn Féin amendment. That consensus might be difficult, but we need to achieve it.

In providing strong education and future career options for all our young people, we must ensure that the rights and choices of parents and students are not overlooked or dismissed. It is important that, as we move forward, the good work of the Fermanagh learning community, which encourages shared education, is given its rightful place in any plans for the future. The importance of parental choice in this matter cannot be emphasised enough. I urge the Minister to give careful consideration to the genuine concerns that have been raised and to be guided by the experience of local opinion.

While full consensus has not yet been reached, I urge all parties to get back around the table and work with the Western Education and Library Board to ensure a resolution.

Tom Elliott (UUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

I welcome the opportunity to discuss and debate this issue. At the outset, I declare an interest, to some degree, as my daughter is a pupil at Devenish College, and I have a son who, I hope, will soon be attending one of the three schools in question.

Obviously, this issue causes a great deal of debate in the Fermanagh area. Indeed, some of that debate maybe goes slightly too far at times. It creates a huge wave of difficulty within not only communities but families. Yesterday, I was at two events and was lobbied very strongly on both sides of the argument. It is an extremely difficult issue, and I have no wish today to make it any worse for any of the groups involved. If I were on the board of governors of any one of those schools, I would want to try to do the best for that school. That is only right. I have no disrespect for any of the boards of governors who wish to take a particular decision and route.

The three development proposals that we are discussing — 260, 261 and 262 — recommend the discontinuance of the Collegiate Grammar School and the Portora Royal School and the establishment of a new single grammar school for Fermanagh. However, the proposal to establish a new single school does not necessarily mean a new build. Effectively, it could result in two schools on two sites with, supposedly, one management structure. I stress that there is no guarantee that a new single school building will be constructed.

We are well aware of the delays in the building of and, in fact, the commencement of the building of, Devenish College. I recall that, in late 2004-05, many of us were lobbying for the retention of Devenish. The old Kesh site, which was the former Duke of Westminster High School, was being closed. At that time, we heard promises of a new construction at Devenish on the Tempo Road in Enniskillen — in fact, the promise was that it would be built by 2008. Now, some six years later, it has not even commenced.

Even though, in the past year and a half, the Minister has linked the outcome of these development proposals with a new build at Devenish, I have continually pressed him to separate the two aspects. The new build of Devenish should not be linked to the amalgamation of Collegiate and Portora. I had a meeting with the Minister less than two weeks ago. In fairness to him, he has said that the Department will build Devenish College, irrespective of the outcome of the development proposals. However, as I understand it, the number of pupils for whom Devenish will be built depends on the proposal for the merger of Portora and Collegiate, or not. If the Minister wants to confirm that or, if I have got that wrong, tell me something different, I am happy to listen to him. We must have equality of —

Phil Flanagan (Sinn Féin, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

I thank the Member for giving way. I will not speak for John O'Dowd, because he is more than capable of speaking for himself. The Member mentioned the number of pupils that will be looked at for a future build for Devenish College. Does he accept, as in the Minister's statement, that, if 70 first-years go into both schools, there will be a reduced catchment for Devenish, which means that the numbers will go down? Does the Member accept the fact that demographics in Fermanagh are changing and that, if we continue to allow the two grammar schools to cream off 140 pupils, it will result in a reduced intake to Devenish College?

Tom Elliott (UUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

It is not just a matter of me accepting it; it is a matter of fact that, if higher numbers go into the two grammar schools, there will be fewer pupils for other schools, be that Devenish or any other. That is a reality. If there is no merger between Collegiate and Portora, there will, of course, be a reduced number for the construction of Devenish.

Arlene Foster (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

Will the Member give way?

Tom Elliott (UUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

If it is quick.

Arlene Foster (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

Yes, it will be quick. In response to Mr Allister, the Minister said that an economic appraisal for the new school at Devenish was based on 800 pupils. That has already been set, so the discussion on the closure of two schools and the building of a new school is not connected with Devenish College at all.

Tom Elliott (UUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

To be fair, it is for the Minister to answer about whether he will build it for the 800 or 850 or reduce it if there is no merger.

What I was going to say is that there must be equality of funding between the controlled sector and other sectors. I recently received figures for capital spend on schools in Fermanagh in the past seven years. There was £18·12 million spent on capital projects in the maintained sector and associated voluntary grammar, whereas only £4·5 million was spent in the controlled sector and associated voluntary grammar.

John Dallat (Social Democratic and Labour Party, East Londonderry)

The Member's time is almost up.

Tom Elliott (UUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

More than four times as much was spent on capital projects in the maintained sector.

Finally, I want to wish everybody well with future negotiations and discussions, because we have been at it for over 10 years and have not made huge progress.

Trevor Lunn (Alliance, Lagan Valley)

Mr Elliott has summed up quite well the problems around a proposal like this, particularly in Fermanagh. His last comment that we have been at this for 10 years indicates to me that the possibility of consensus on the issue is probably fairly slim. It really requires a decision to be eventually taken that is the best decision for the young children of Fermanagh and provides the best educational outcome for those children. What that would be is the question.

The motion has certainly produced a different debate from what we normally have around education in this place, because it does not mention religion or selection. We are talking about a brand new voluntary grammar versus the continuation of single-sex education on two sites in Enniskillen. That raises this question: what does the parent of a young girl in Enniskillen do if they would prefer that young girl to be educated on a co-educational basis? There is not that facility. It actually applies in reverse.

Arlene Foster (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

They go to Dungannon Royal.

Trevor Lunn (Alliance, Lagan Valley)

Dungannon is a bit of a distance from Enniskillen.

John Dallat (Social Democratic and Labour Party, East Londonderry)

Order, please. The Member will take his seat. I remind Members that making remarks from a sedentary position is not the practice of the Assembly. Continue.

Trevor Lunn (Alliance, Lagan Valley)

Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. I am sorry about that.

There is a big debate going on. I have never had so much correspondence on an issue since I joined the Committee. I must say that I have some sympathy for the Fermanagh Members who have to wrestle with this, because it is a difficult one for them.

On the question of whether girls do better if they are educated in a girls-only school, I see statistics that indicate that that may well be the case; I see other statistics that indicate that it is not the case. There is another question because of the size of these two schools: is big better, or is small better? The folk from the Collegiate have very eloquently described how they think their results are terrific because it is a relatively small grammar school restricted to a female intake. Frankly, that just does not stack up in the real world, nor does the argument that a small school is better than a big school. The bigger grammars across Northern Ireland fare very well in any statistics that you look at, as do co-educational schools.

We are talking about the two smallest grammar schools in Northern Ireland. They both have fewer than 500 pupils. If they remain separate, it seems unlikely that they will be able to deliver the full curriculum when the entitlement framework kicks in next year. That will be a legal requirement, so I really do not know what they will do. One Member mentioned the fact that Portora had over 20 classes with fewer than eight pupils. That is not a sustainable position. The normal solution at the present time, which is very much in vogue, is a shared education scenario. Fermanagh is leading the way in shared education, but it does not seem to apply to these schools because, as far as I am aware — I am happy to be corrected — there is no class-sharing element between Portora and the Collegiate or between the Collegiate and Devenish.

Arlene Foster (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

Will the Member give way?

Trevor Lunn (Alliance, Lagan Valley)

Yes, certainly.

Arlene Foster (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

The Member is wrong about that. The Collegiate is a member of the Fermanagh Learning Community and avails itself of sharing right across the education sectors in County Fermanagh. That is true of the Collegiate and, as far as I am aware, of Portora, so they do access that. They are the smallest grammar schools in Northern Ireland because their numbers are capped. If they were allowed to develop further, they would be bigger schools.

Trevor Lunn (Alliance, Lagan Valley)

I thank the Member for that clarification. She said "as far as I am aware", and my information is that there is no sharing between the Collegiate Grammar and Portora Royal, but that is for another day.

Arlene Foster (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

Will the Member give way?

Trevor Lunn (Alliance, Lagan Valley)

Sorry, I am not giving way. That is the information that I have been given.

Effectively, the proposal is for a shared solution in the short-to-medium term, because the two schools can operate on split sites with a joint board. I suggest that, if they are to proceed with that, the joint board might do well to have an independent chairperson. For now, however, we are not content to support a motion that demands that the Minister refuse this development proposal. We think that it has to be a ministerial decision, and I hope that he makes the right decision. To us, the Sinn Féin amendment looks more sensible for the present. We support the Sinn Féin amendment and, if it does not pass, will oppose the main motion.

Mervyn Storey (DUP, North Antrim)

I will commence by saying that we should all be glad, as we meet in the House today, that we are not dealing with fatalities as a result of the bus accident this morning on the Omagh Road in Drumquin. Our thoughts are with everyone involved in that very serious situation. It is ironic that it comes the day before we hold an event in the Assembly on bus safety. Our thoughts are with everyone in that regard.

None of us should be under any illusion that, as the safety of children in regard to transport is an important issue, the safety of our children in regard to the decisions that are made for them is equally important. As you are aware, the Education Committee tends not to comment on individual development proposals. The Committee has taken a significant interest in the overarching area planning policy and the effectiveness or ineffectiveness, as some see it, of the current development proposal process. The Committee has taken the view that the development process is overly complex and is generally poorly explained by the education and library boards. The Committee has also noted apparent inconsistencies in linked proposals such as those identified in today's motion. In fact, in the last session of the Assembly, the Minister said that local area-based proposals of this kind should be subject to a single development proposal, but here we are yet again, back in the same place with the same situation facing us, where the closures and amalgamation from these proposals are subject to three development proposals. The Committee has also argued that the development proposal process needs to better include and to be seen to properly consider the voices of pupils and, indeed, the views of parents.

I will spend a few moments in conclusion speaking as the DUP education spokesperson. I apologise for not being present at the commencement of the debate; I was doing an interview with 'Talkback' on Fleming Fulton School. When I came into the Chamber, we were again being subjected to the same hypocritical arguments from Sinn Féin about having a care for all the children in Fermanagh, as though some of us have never been to Devenish, to the Collegiate, to Portora or to visit all the component parts of our education system in Northern Ireland when that could not be further from the truth. With my colleagues, I have continued to ensure that we keep up to date with all the issues in relation to Fermanagh. The education spokesperson from Sinn Féin persistently refers to equality for all the children, when he had the privilege of having a grammar school education. Of course, he wants to deny that to everyone else.

Christopher Hazzard (Sinn Féin, South Down)

Will the Member give way?

Mervyn Storey (DUP, North Antrim)

No, I will not. That is the height of hypocrisy. That is what it is: hypocrisy.

Let us get to the nub of the issue. Why are we 10 years on and Devenish has not even had a sod cut? Why are we in a position where promise after promise has not been delivered to the children in Fermanagh? For 10 years, we have had Sinn Féin Ministers — McGuinness, Ruane and now O'Dowd. Has one of them progressed the issue of Devenish? Has one of them delivered on the promises? No, they have not. If the failure lies anywhere, it lies with those who have responsibility for the Department of Education. Let me deal with the issue that was mentioned by —

David McNarry (UKIP, Strangford)

Will the Member give way?

Mervyn Storey (DUP, North Antrim)

Yes, Mr McNarry. [Interruption.]

David McNarry (UKIP, Strangford)

I thank the Member for giving way. Would he agree with me that this debate and the area we are talking about resonates across Northern Ireland, no more so — I will be brief — than in my constituency, where this morning over 2,000 children caught a bus to go to the school that their parents wanted them to go to. That is not by choice, but because of its absence in their area. Therefore, the lesson from the debate is that we should take care in every constituency. Those in the Alliance Party who are wavering should take care. What is happening and has been happening in Fermanagh for the past 10 years will happen —

John Dallat (Social Democratic and Labour Party, East Londonderry)

Order, please.

David McNarry (UKIP, Strangford)

— and hit all over Northern Ireland.

John Dallat (Social Democratic and Labour Party, East Londonderry)

Order, please. I remind Members that interventions should be direct and relate directly to what is being said. The Member has an extra minute.

Mervyn Storey (DUP, North Antrim)

I concur with the Member.

Let me put the House on a warning. Let us remember and be assured that the Minister — he is now in receipt of the transport report — will revisit the issue in relation to the distance travelled by children on the basis of parental choice. We await his comments on that report.

Let me deal with an issue that was raised by Mr Flanagan. It is not the first time that he has come to the House with a different view on issues. He talked about resources, the intake and how it is important that those resources are used appropriately. He was not using those arguments to ensure that Brollagh stayed open. He was not using those issues when —

Phil Flanagan (Sinn Féin, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. For Mervyn's information — he said that he was not here, so maybe he will read Hansard — I never mentioned resources. I mentioned intake, but I never mentioned resources. But I can listen.

Mervyn Storey (DUP, North Antrim)

I have heard of dancing on the head of a pin, and, of course, that is probably what the Member is trying to do. The reality is this: you cannot argue —

Phil Flanagan (Sinn Féin, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

The Member's time is gone.

John Dallat (Social Democratic and Labour Party, East Londonderry)

The Member's time is up.

Mervyn Storey (DUP, North Antrim)

— to keep Brollagh —

John Dallat (Social Democratic and Labour Party, East Londonderry)

The Member's time is up.

Phil Flanagan (Sinn Féin, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

The Member's time is gone.

Mervyn Storey (DUP, North Antrim)

Mr Deputy Speaker, is he the Speaker or are you the Speaker? [Interruption.]

John Dallat (Social Democratic and Labour Party, East Londonderry)

I remind the Member that he is challenging the Chair —

Mervyn Storey (DUP, North Antrim)

He was.

John Dallat (Social Democratic and Labour Party, East Londonderry)

— and that is very serious. Before I call the next Member, I remind Members not to make personal remarks about other Members.

Pat Sheehan (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. From the outset, I confess that I do not have a lot of local knowledge about these schools, but I can speak on the general principles.

I have noted that Mrs Foster has been very passionate about the issue, although I also noted that I had heard one of the least passionate speeches from Lord Morrow that he has ever given in the House. Maybe that tells us a little about how strongly he feels about it. I see that the Chair of the Committee is shaking his head. Why is he shaking his head? On his own admission, he was not even here.

Mervyn Storey (DUP, North Antrim)

Will the Member give way?

Pat Sheehan (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

In the interests of equality, I will not give way, because you would not give way.

As in all these education debates, there may be disagreement about certain issues.

We need to bring one principle to bear that would be our guiding light in all of this. The thing that we should keep front and centre in everything that we say, particularly when these debates are publicised and may be listened to by students, not just in Collegiate but in Portora and Devenish, is what is best for the education of the children in all the schools concerned.

By common consensus here today, Tom Elliott said —

Maurice (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

Will the Member give way?

Pat Sheehan (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

I will give way.

Maurice (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

I think that the Member maybe missed the point that I tried to make in relation to this, and I see that he is, in some way, either trying to minimise it or remake it. The point was this: we are challenging or asking quite clearly today for one thing, which is for the outcomes to the benefit and well-being of the children and the pupils in County Fermanagh. Does he accept that that should be the overriding factor and that nothing else should dictate the outcome?

Pat Sheehan (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

Of course, I accept that, but, first, I have to make the point. For instance, when my old primary school closed, which was a school that I had attended, my brother had attended, and my father and all his brothers had attended, it felt like part of the family history had gone. I would have preferred that it had not closed and that it was always there and always part of the family. I can understand why past pupils, in particular, might get passionate about it and why it might cloud their objectivity when it comes to making decisions about this —

Arlene Foster (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

Will the Member give way?

Pat Sheehan (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

No, I am not giving way any more. I have already given way once.

I listened to Tom Elliott say that this has been going on for 10 years now. The debate about all of this has been going on for 10 years in Fermanagh. We all received the email from Rev John McDowell and Mr Alex Baird regarding the motion and the fact that they had not been consulted by the proposers of the motion. The development proposals in question had the unanimous support of both boards of governors in Portora and in Devenish College. It said:

"At least 26 consultation meetings were held between April 2007 and February 2013 involving combinations of principals and representatives of the Board of Governors of the Controlled and Voluntary post-primary schools in Fermanagh together with — variously — MLAs, officers of the Western Education and Library Board and officers from the Department of Education to discuss the future of the sectors. Full consensus could not be reached".

Trevor Lunn is right. We are past the point where we are going to get consensus around this issue. That is why we have a Minister, because, when consensus cannot be reached and when the Minister has all the evidence sitting in front of him, he then can make a decision. That is why he is there. I hope — I am quite sure, in fact — that the Minister will make a decision that is in the best interests of all the children in the education system in Fermanagh.

Joe Byrne (Social Democratic and Labour Party, West Tyrone)

Like Mr Storey, I want to mention the bus accident outside Drumquin this morning and, hopefully, all the children will make a full recovery.

As a Tyrone man, I am hesitant about getting involved in a debate regarding schools in Fermanagh, but I feel that I have an obligation, as a former teacher, to address the issue. This is a hot education issue in Enniskillen, and there are competing views about the Western Board's development proposals for the reorganisation of secondary schools in the controlled voluntary grammar sector in Fermanagh. There would appear to be different views around the nature and the quality of the local area consultation that we conducted prior to the development proposals being finalised.

Last April, I met the principal of the Collegiate school, some governors and some parent representatives, and they certainly felt aggrieved about that. The Collegiate community certainly feels aggrieved that it is being shoehorned into a new co-educational college incorporating the Collegiate and Portora schools. Both of those schools have a very proud education history and legacy going back 100-plus years. The proposed co-educational voluntary grammar school on a split site has generated tensions between the respective school communities in Enniskillen. Area based planning on education is a difficult exercise at any time in any community; it is certainly so here.

The governors and parents of the Collegiate School feel that the issue of a new Devenish College is being used by the Department as a weapon in this debate. It is obvious that there is a lack of broad community consensus and support between all the existing school communities in the Enniskillen controlled sector on this matter. That is regrettable. I recognise Mr Elliott's pointing out that this debate has gone on for 10 years, but it might take another few years to get the outcome right.

The motion is a blunt instrument at this time, but the principal of the Collegiate is very sincere and dedicated to her school's community. The proposed amendment is regarded as complicating the issue because it invokes the question of the Devenish College. There needs to be more discussion in Enniskillen on the matter in order to gain broader community support for the final proposals, whatever they will be.

Maeve McLaughlin (Sinn Féin, Foyle)

Go raibh maith agat. As a member of the Education Committee, I support the proposed amendment. Some Members quite have deliberately attempted to suggest that the wording of the amendment was either mischievous or confusing. It is neither of those things. It simply requires that the development proposals ensure access to high-quality education for all our young people in our communities, as any development proposals should.

The motion rightly commends the excellent exam results this year. I think that we should acknowledge those results and congratulate all the pupils and schools for their hard work and successes. There is no mischievousness, lack of clarity or confusion in the fact that the proposed amendment rightly includes the provision for a new build at Devenish. That is clear. There is no confusion there. As has been pointed out, the board and the CCMS have statutory planning responsibilities, and it is important to reflect that developing sustainable educational provision must involve meeting the needs of all the population, not just one part of it.

As has rightly been pointed out, the WELB has published its development proposals. They would, as has been reflected on, mean the closure of Collegiate Grammar and Portora Schools by September 2015, and they introduce a notion of facilitating the creation of a single, co-educational, non-denominational voluntary school. It is important to note today that the correspondence that we have received indicates that Devenish and the governors of Portora support the amalgamation of the two smallest grammar schools to form that co-educational institution. The assertion that has been made that the Collegiate School is the most oversubscribed school is true of only one of the past five years, which was 2013.

I want to pick up on a comment that Mr Lunn made, suggesting that a fully mixed-gender educational provision would not provide better educational outcomes. I do not know where that has been evidenced anywhere. I know that Mr Lunn has relayed that information, but nothing that I have heard today backs up the claim that any evidence-based approach to this development proposal would produce an inequality. Nothing I have heard today from the Benches opposite backs up the idea that these development proposals would produce that inequality. I ask the DUP this: where are the facts? Its Members have commented that this would produce an inequality. Education must be centred on access for all our young people to high-quality education that is educationally sound and sustainable as well as economically viable. Therefore, decisions around educational changes and choices must continue to be centred on children and not institutions.

Danny Kinahan (UUP, South Antrim)

I am pleased to get in before we get to questions for oral answer. I am also pleased to speak on the subject. I am not from Fermanagh and thus hesitate to be fully involved, but I am part of the Education Committee and think that it is right that we look at the principles.

When I first looked at the motion, I saw a very different one from what I have heard come from the DUP Benches. I am concerned that we are still getting mixed messages. That is because it looked, to me, to be a motion that was very much taking one side rather than trying to find a solution. As many here will know, I spend my life in the Chamber trying to promote consensus and ways forward.

All of us, of course, agree with commending both schools for their excellent GCSE and A-level results and that we should pour praise on the hard-working teachers and staff in all the schools, just as they should praise pupils who achieve the results and the families who helped them. Here we have two excellent schools pitted against each other, so it seems, and the community divided. However, even that picture is not accurate, as the motion focuses on just those schools and ignores so many other aspects of the picture in Enniskillen. It ignores the other schools, the other education establishments — their teachers, staff, communities, parents and right the way through, even to parents and pupils who were at the schools.

Mervyn Storey (DUP, North Antrim)

Will the Member give way?

Danny Kinahan (UUP, South Antrim)

I am happy to give way.

Mervyn Storey (DUP, North Antrim)

I know that the Member is trying to sit on the fence, but maybe he can come out and tell us his party's view on the Collegiate. Where does he stand on supporting the Collegiate? Without any ambiguity or doublespeak, just tell us this: where does the Member's party stand on the protection of educational provision for Collegiate pupils?

Danny Kinahan (UUP, South Antrim)

I thank the Member very much for —

John Dallat (Social Democratic and Labour Party, East Londonderry)

The Member will not have any extra time.

Danny Kinahan (UUP, South Antrim)

Thank you. I am very grateful for that, and it will become clear, as he listens to what I say today.

At least the amendment mentions other schools, albeit just Devenish, yet all are important. The amendment too focuses only on the controlled sector. There is no mention of the maintained sector or integrated sector, the latter of which there may be great effects for as well. We long to see the build at Devenish and to see it split away from today's motion. However, where is the shared education drive that everyone talks about? At times, I think that only our party is pushing it. Where is the inclusion of the excellent work that the Fermanagh Trust has done and is doing, showing that schools are and can work well together? That is what the public want to see. I acknowledge that all schools have been and are involved, but that is the leadership that we should be following.

When I looked at today's motion, I found that it looked as though it was trying to divide, when what is really needed is leadership to find a consensus on the way forward in order to try to give Collegiate and Portora what they want and to work with everyone there. I feel that there is an attempt to mislead the public, in that the motion states that the Assembly "requires the Minister". It seems to be trying to tell the public that the Minister has to take on board what is in the motion, when that is not the case and when we have seen most Ministers ignore no-day-named motions all the time.

Quite rightly, though, the motion highlights the abysmal development process, and therein are the failures that relate to Portora and Collegiate. Wherever it is used, this development process fails every community. Whether primary or post-primary, Belfast or Fermanagh, it creates division between schools and, especially, between communities, be they in Newtownbreda, Dundonald, Shankill or, today, Enniskillen.

Tom Elliott (UUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

Will the Member give way?

Danny Kinahan (UUP, South Antrim)

I am happy to give way.

Tom Elliott (UUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

Does the Member accept the difficulties in the piecemeal approach that we have to the closure of schools?

Not long ago, we had the closures of Ballinamallard and Kesh, which were Duke of Westminster schools. Then, there was Lisnaskea, and now there is a proposal to close the Collegiate. There was no pre-planning for any of that.

Danny Kinahan (UUP, South Antrim)

I fully acknowledge that. Therein lie the problems that we have today. As we heard earlier in the debate, it is because we have not found a whole way forward for the area that you have the motion and the amendment today, which do not suit everybody. If we go back to the numbers that the whole process is based on —

John Dallat (Social Democratic and Labour Party, East Londonderry)

The Member's time is almost up.

Danny Kinahan (UUP, South Antrim)

Thank you very much.

I want to see a consensus solution found on the way forward that suits all the schools concerned and causes no division.

John Dallat (Social Democratic and Labour Party, East Londonderry)

This debate will continue after Question Time, when the next Member to speak will be Mr Jim Allister. Members will take their ease while we change the top Table.

(Mr Principal Deputy Speaker [Mr Mitchel McLaughlin] in the Chair)

Oral Answers to Questions

Joe Byrne (Social Democratic and Labour Party, West Tyrone)

1. asked the First Minister and deputy First Minister, following the leader of the DUP's statement that the current devolved arrangements are not fit for purpose, what changes are proposed to the current arrangements. (AQO 6623/11-15)

Kieran McCarthy (Alliance, Strangford)

8. asked the First Minister and deputy First Minister what discussions they have had on institutional reform, given that the leader of the DUP recently stated that the present arrangements for devolved government are not fit for purpose. (AQO 6630/11-15)

Peter Robinson (DUP, Belfast East)

With your permission, Mr Principal Deputy Speaker, I will answer questions 1 and 8 together. The St Andrews Agreement provided for a number of changes to the institutions, which facilitated the restoration of devolution in May 2007. The St Andrews Agreement also provided that the devolved arrangements would be reviewed, and a Standing Committee has been established by the Assembly to carry that out. The deputy First Minister and I have had discussions on such matters on numerous occasions, including as recently as last week. It is hoped that agreement can be reached between the parties on such matters.

In my capacity as a party leader, I have made my position clear. I have outlined what I believe needs to be done to deliver more effective and efficient institutions. Ultimately, however, it will be for each of the political parties to put forward their own proposals as to the reform of the current structures. It is in everyone's interest to participate in the discussion and deliver the most effective and efficient form of government that we can achieve.

Joe Byrne (Social Democratic and Labour Party, West Tyrone)

I thank the First Minister for his answer. Will he outline whether there is a lack of functionality in the structures, or is there a lack of a professional relationship between the two office holders in OFMDFM? Is there a problem in relation to those relationships in how decisions are made at the highest level of the Executive?

Peter Robinson (DUP, Belfast East)

I am pleased to say that relationships in OFMDFM have not descended to the levels of when his party leader and the leader of the Ulster Unionist Party held those positions. This is a matter dealing with the arrangements that govern the modus operandi of the Assembly and Executive. It needs to be borne out by the fact that this was something that was predicted and predictable; we recognised at St Andrews that the unusual arrangements that we were setting up could not be permanent and would need to be reviewed. Therefore, in the St Andrews Agreement and in the subsequent legislation, we made provision for that review.

I do not think that anyone in the Chamber — there are certainly very few outside — believes that things are going so swimmingly in the Assembly and Executive that we are not in need of reform. To some extent, the argument that it is not fit for purpose is one that perhaps even transcends the Northern Ireland Assembly; I could probably make the same case for the Scottish Parliament, the Welsh Government, the Westminster Parliament and Europe, all of whom are looking at ways to improve the way they operate. What kind of an Assembly would we be if we missed the opportunity to try to improve the way we do business and get a better outcome for the people we represent?

Kieran McCarthy (Alliance, Strangford)

Does the First Minister agree that among the things that make the present arrangements not fit for purpose, as he would say, is the misuse of petitions of concern by him and the DUP? That gives the public reason to be disillusioned with the Assembly in its entirety.

Peter Robinson (DUP, Belfast East)

Mr Principal Deputy Speaker, you allowed the Member to make those remarks even though they are a criticism of the Chair. If anybody is misusing the procedures of the House, it is the job of the Chair to call them to order. Clearly, the procedures of the House are being used. The Member may not like the way they are used, but that is an entirely different matter.

The use of petitions of concern is one of the many issues that I suspect parties in this House would like to consider further, and some would like to see a review. I am not so tied to any of the procedures in this House that I would stand up and say that they could not be improved. So, I am sure that the Member or his party, in any discussions and negotiations that take place, will raise that if it is one of the key issues for them.

Mike Nesbitt (UUP, Strangford)

In light of the First Minister's answers to date, reflecting on the 2011 DUP manifesto, which made the point that petitions of concern should not be used to block motions of no confidence, and considering how the DUP have deployed petitions of concern in this mandate, does he still believe in what he wrote in 2011?

Peter Robinson (DUP, Belfast East)

It ill becomes anybody from the Ulster Unionist Party to raise those issues. There are those in this Chamber, and it is regrettable, who put down party political motions of no confidence. Every week, we could be putting down a motion of no confidence in one party or another or their representatives in the Executive. Perhaps we need a bit more mature thinking in the Assembly so that we are not taking up the time of some Committees and taking up time in the Assembly and are getting down to the business that people out there really want us to do: getting more jobs and improving the lot of people who are vulnerable in our society rather than engaging in the party bickering that sometimes goes on in this Chamber.

Gregory Campbell (DUP, East Londonderry)

The First Minister referred to his comments about the institutions not being fit for purpose. Many people indicated that that was an accurate summary, but he was criticised by a number of political parties, including Sinn Féin. Yet, over the weekend, the former Minister and current MP for Fermanagh and South Tyrone, Michelle Gildernew, said that the institutions were untenable. Does he see a distinction between the two comments?

Peter Robinson (DUP, Belfast East)

There clearly is a distinction between the two comments. If I am quoting the former Minister of Agriculture and Rural Development correctly, she said the situation was:

"perilous — I would actually say untenable".

However, all of us know that we are faced with a set of circumstances that arise from issues relating to welfare reform. We are going to be facing costs that simply cannot be taken into account by our Budget. With a £10 billion Budget to carry out all the programmes and processes of government, we cannot contemplate a reduction of over £1 billion a year. It simply cannot be done. If people want to bury their head in the sand, be in denial about these matters and fool themselves that somehow things could be different if there was another Government at Westminster or that somehow they can put pressure on the coalition Government to change course, they are heading for a set of circumstances that will ensure that the most vulnerable people in our society are worst hit because the health service, the education system, the justice system and all the other elements of government that they need most will not be available to them without very considerable reductions in service.

Michaela Boyle (Sinn Féin, West Tyrone)

Go raibh maith agat. Does the First Minister agree that there is a need for wide-ranging negotiations to include flags, parades and the past?

Peter Robinson (DUP, Belfast East)

I apologise for the length of the article, which ran into a couple of thousand words.

Those who took the time to read it will have seen that I argued the case that though issues like flags, parades and the past have caused difficulties to our present circumstances, none was capable of endangering the institutions and bringing them down. The matters of urgency are the way that we operate as an Assembly and Executive, and welfare reform.

While there certainly is a case that there are many issues that need to be discussed and where getting agreement is potentially advantageous, it is imperative that we deal with the matters capable of bringing down the Assembly and Executive. Do not fool yourselves about this issue: we simply cannot tolerate a set of circumstances in which £1 billion is to be taken off our Budget.

If anybody wants to say, "These other items are more important or as important", let them tell me where they will make the reductions of £1 billion. It simply cannot be done. This is not away down the road. In the next financial year, almost £200 million will be taken out of our already squeezed Budget as a result of welfare reform issues. We simply cannot dodge it. We must deal with it and deal with it immediately.

Jim Allister (Traditional Unionist Voice, North Antrim)

The First Minister is on record as saying that things cannot go on as they are. Does there come a point, therefore, when, if meaningful change is not made, the First Minister will take that advice and cease to sustain the institutions? What are the red-line issues that would take him to that point?

Peter Robinson (DUP, Belfast East)

Nobody in the Chamber will be able to withstand the public outcry if we attempt to take £1 billion out of our Budget. The whole lot of us will be swept from office, and we would deserve to be swept from office if we tolerated such a set of circumstances. It is, as the former Minister of Agriculture said, simply not tenable.

John McCallister (UUP, South Down)

Reflecting on the First Minister's words about this place not being fit for purpose, how does he perceive that he will achieve a proper Programme for Government and collective Cabinet responsibility when there is nothing to stop any party walking out of the all-party talks process for perceived political gain? Will he now give a commitment to support my private Member's Bill to bring in a government in opposition?

Peter Robinson (DUP, Belfast East)

I did not know that the Member had published his Bill, so it would be very rash to support something that I have not even seen, though I am sure that it will be full of improvements. Having talked to him about the issue, I know that some of the issues he mentions are ones that I would readily support, although I have concerns about some that he has talked about.

The fact that he has in preparation a private Member's Bill to improve the way that the Assembly functions is an indicator that there is clearly a need for us to upgrade the Assembly and Executive's functions and arrangements. If we take that as a given, I have had a meeting with, I think, every party and those who are independents in the House. At those meetings, there was a realistic recognition on the part of everybody whom I spoke to that we needed to improve the way that we operate.

Unquestionably, people will come from different angles on what the priorities for change are, but, first, let us all at least accept the need for change. When we accept that, we can start a proper and helpful debate about what those changes can be, how they will impact on the delivery that we have for the public and how we can be sure that we do not end up with deadlock but can get decisions taken in the Assembly and Executive.

Mitchel McLaughlin (Sinn Féin, South Antrim)

Question 9 has been withdrawn.

Jimmy Spratt (DUP, Belfast South)

2. asked the First Minister and deputy First Minister whether they plan to make representations to the Assembly and Executive Review Committee in relation to the Committee's statutory responsibilities. (AQO 6624/11-15)

Peter Robinson (DUP, Belfast East)

The Assembly and Executive Review Committee has a statutory responsibility under section 29A of the Northern Ireland Act 1998 to report before 1 May 2015 on the operation of Parts III and IV of that Act, which set out the arrangements for the devolved institutions.

The Committee began its review in 2012, producing separate reports that year on the future size of the Assembly and the number of Departments. It has since produced reports on the d’Hondt arrangements, community designation, provisions for an opposition and, most recently, on petitions of concern. The Committee is currently undertaking further important work regarding the role of women in politics and in the Assembly.

The deputy First Minister and I met the Chair and the Deputy Chair of the Committee on 4 April 2012 at the start of its review. Where appropriate, we may make representations to the Committee as it conducts further work in relation to parts III and IV of the Northern Ireland Act 1998. In the past, when there was an agreed position on matters under review by the Committee, representations were made, notably in relation to the devolution of policing and justice. In circumstances where further agreements are reached, we anticipate making further representations to the Committee. We welcome the work of the Committee and the opportunity that its reports present for Assembly plenary debate on our structures of government.

Jimmy Spratt (DUP, Belfast South)

In light of the announcement by the Prime Minister following the rejection of the Scottish independence referendum, does the First Minister think that the Assembly and Executive Review Committee could play a useful role in the discussion around devolution for Northern Ireland in the wider United Kingdom context?

Peter Robinson (DUP, Belfast East)

In the context of the 1998 Act, there is a requirement for the Assembly and Executive Review Committee to carry out a review before May 2015 on internal Northern Ireland matters. However, there is no exclusion placed on the Assembly or the Committee on looking at wider issues relating to Northern Ireland's place in the United Kingdom and the structures that would best suit Northern Ireland for our relationship with the rest of the United Kingdom. I think that it would be a very useful exercise for the Committee and one that all parties in the Chamber need to consider over the next number of weeks and months.

An important debate has begun in the United Kingdom; it is clear that there are going to be changes in the operation of our constitution as a part of this nation. As parties in the Assembly, we want to be sure that we get the best possible arrangements for Northern Ireland. Already in the economic pact that was signed by the deputy First Minister and me and by the Prime Minister, there is an agreement to look at all the fiscal levers that are at the disposal of the United Kingdom to see whether any of them could be devolved to Northern Ireland. It is much in that same vein that I think the pledge that was made to Scotland was set out. So, that already is an undertaking that we have from the United Kingdom Government and one that we are presently doing work on in the Department of Finance and Personnel on the financial levers. However, there are wider constitutional matters about our place at Westminster, including the role that our MPs would have at Westminster and whether the House of Lords could be a more representative Chamber in relation to the regions. There are a number of different issues that the Committee could and should look at, but it should not be it exclusively that does that. I think that, as political parties, we should be doing it too.

Mitchel McLaughlin (Sinn Féin, South Antrim)

I remind the Minister of the two-minute rule.

Alex Maskey (Sinn Féin, Belfast South)

Go raibh maith agat, a Phríomh-LeasCheann Comhairle. Does the First Minister agree that any review of the Assembly structures must be rooted firmly in the terms of the Good Friday Agreement?

Peter Robinson (DUP, Belfast East)

The Belfast Agreement was not like the law of the Medes and Persians which changeth not and was a recognition that there was room for improvement, room for updating and room for upgrading. Indeed, if the Member was right, we would never have had a St Andrews Agreement and we would never have had a Hillsborough Castle Agreement. So, clearly, things do move on, and improvements are made along the way. Certainly, nothing should be done in a new agreement that destabilises political life in Northern Ireland and allows us to go back to the dark days of the past.

Alex Attwood (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast West)

Can I point out the inconsistency of the First Minister when he says that only welfare could bring down the institutions? It was only a matter of months ago, First Minister, that you threatened these institutions around an issue from the past, so do not be inconsistent in this Chamber today. First Minister, do you believe that the Assembly and Executive Review Committee issues about the institutions, petitions of concern and the rest are part of the negotiations that you have called for, or is the truth of it that you just want a negotiation to break parties on welfare, get corporation tax and put all the other issues like parades and the past into the long grass?

Peter Robinson (DUP, Belfast East)

Once again, characteristically, the Member gets it wrong. I never threatened these institutions at all. I indicated that I could not remain in government if there was not a judge-led inquiry into the on-the-runs (OTR) issue. I am glad that there was a judge-led inquiry, that the inquiry made recommendations, that the Government accepted those recommendations and that, as a result of their accepting those recommendations, the validity of the letters has now changed, and the letters will no longer be able to be relied on by anybody whom the police want to deal with.

I have dealt with the Member's inaccuracy rather than my inconsistency, so let me now deal with what would be on the agenda for the modalities of the Assembly and the Executive. I am indicating that I want to improve the arrangements in the Assembly and for the Executive. It would be utter folly, in wanting to improve the modalities of the House, if I were to suggest that people should not be able to raise and seek agreement on issues that are important to them. Of course we will look at all the issues to see how best we can get a properly effective and efficiently running Assembly and Executive so that decisions can be taken and do not lie in deadlock. I would have thought that among those who would be cheering me from the rafters would be the party whose leader recognised a long time ago that the ugly scaffolding of the agreement needed to be removed.

Raymond McCartney (Sinn Féin, Foyle)

3. asked the First Minister and deputy First Minister for their assessment of the need for a robust sexual orientation strategy. (AQO 6625/11-15)

Peter Robinson (DUP, Belfast East)

With your permission, Mr Principal Deputy Speaker, I will ask junior Minister Jonathan Bell to answer the question.

Jonathan Bell (DUP, Strangford)

The current Programme for Government sets out our vision for a society in which equality, mutual trust and respect are core values. Achieving that vision requires tackling not just sectarianism and racism but other forms of intolerance. The Together: Building a United Community (T: BUC) strategy recognises the problems that lesbian, gay and bisexual (LGB) people face due to prejudice and intolerance. The specific needs of LGB people were articulated clearly during the public consultation on the draft strategy for cohesion, sharing and integration, which included the commitment to publish the sexual orientation strategy. We remain committed to publishing a sexual orientation strategy, which will be informed by a full public consultation. The intention is that the strategy and the associated action plans will address the issues that impact on the daily lives of LGB people.

Raymond McCartney (Sinn Féin, Foyle)

Go raibh maith agat, a Phríomh-LeasCheann Comhairle. Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as a fhreagra. I thank the Minister for that answer. I welcome the fact that he talks about equality and mutual respect being the core principles and that we have to do away with prejudice and intolerance. Does the Minister agree that that strategy is severely undermined, if not weakened, by the fact that there continues to be a nonsensical ban on gay men giving blood?

Jonathan Bell (DUP, Strangford)

That is a matter for the Department of Health.

Colum Eastwood (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

I thank the junior Minister for his answers thus far. When was this issue last raised at the Executive, and who raised it?

Jonathan Bell (DUP, Strangford)

If the Member does not know, he should know that I am not permitted to give out the content of Executive business.

Paula Bradley (DUP, Belfast North)

I thank the junior Minister for his responses. Will he inform the House whether the consultation responses contained any reference to current legislative protections for the LGB community?

Jonathan Bell (DUP, Strangford)

Yes. We had a wide range of responses, and in discussions that we have had with a range of groups, we have also looked at the existing legislation that seeks to tackle discrimination based on sexual orientation.

Any new strategy can raise awareness and give effect to current legislation. So, in drafting the strategy in OFMDFM, we will highlight that it can help give effect to existing legal protections to ensure that they are properly understood and enacted. It can highlight that the strategy can address issues that are outside the scope of existing legal protection. Everyone in the House has a commitment to supporting good relations and to addressing bullying in any form in which it comes.

Sandra Overend (UUP, Mid Ulster)

4. asked the First Minister and deputy First Minister when work on drafting the cross-departmental Internet safety strategy will begin. (AQO 6626/11-15)

Peter Robinson (DUP, Belfast East)

With your permission, Mr Principal Deputy Speaker, I will ask junior Minister Jonathan Bell to answer the question.

Jonathan Bell (DUP, Strangford)

Department of Health, Social Services and Public Safety and OFMDFM officials have been working together to agree how best to take forward the development of an Internet safety strategy for Northern Ireland. Given its statutory duty to work together to safeguard children and young people and to promote their welfare, it was agreed that an approach should be made to the Safeguarding Board for Northern Ireland to seek its approval in principle to take forward the development of an interagency Internet safety strategy. In June 2014, agreement in principle was obtained from the Safeguarding Board for Northern Ireland. With the agreement of all Ministers, it is intended that the development of the strategy will be formally commissioned on behalf of the Executive.

Sandra Overend (UUP, Mid Ulster)

I thank the junior Minister for his answer. The Department will not be surprised to hear that I am pressing it again on the Internet safety strategy, considering that I have been on its back about it since autumn 2012. Surely the Ministers in OFMDFM and the Minister of Health can come to some sort of agreement sooner rather than later and allocate whatever amount of money needs to be given to the Safeguarding Board for the draft strategy and for it to get on with the job. Can the Minister indicate a time frame, and can he indicate how much money is needed to progress the strategy?

Jonathan Bell (DUP, Strangford)

The Member has been very encouraging in the work that she has done with OFMDFM and the charitable sector. While we look to develop that strategy in the Department of Health, it would be wrong for anybody to go out without an understanding of the work that is under way. I am talking about not just the work that we have done in schools such as St Ita's Primary School and Wellington College but the work that we have done on reaching key players in the European Union, because those major Internet players are the drivers that put the content on to the Internet. We have fully engaged with Facebook. We went to its European headquarters in Dublin to address what it could do and to support the ambassadors against bullying, particularly the young people from our schools in Northern Ireland who are taking a lead role as ambassadors against bullying on the Internet.

OFMDFM has also been part of a major conference with COFACE, the Confederation of Family Organisations in the European Union, which is one of the major charities on the European scene seeking to protect children. A very simple point should go out to all our young people that they should treat their personal information in exactly the same way as they would treat their toothbrush: do not share it, and certainly do not share it over the Internet.

William Humphrey (DUP, Belfast North)

On the theme of working across government, I ask the junior Minister what steps he and his Department have taken in working alongside the Department of Health, Social Services and Public Safety?

Jonathan Bell (DUP, Strangford)

In recognising the role that has been played by the Department of Health, Social Services and Public Safety in child protection, I should also pay tribute to the Member for the work that he has undertaken in north Belfast to keep children safe, particularly from cybercrime and cyberbullying, but we have taken advantage of our own central role in the Executive to help inform the discussions on how we can best protect children from abuse through the Internet. We commissioned research to gain a better understanding of Internet use by P7 pupils. We engaged with the United Kingdom Safer Internet Centre, the Safeguarding Board for Northern Ireland and many of the relevant stakeholder organisations.

We undertook a review of activity on Internet safety across all the relevant Departments to identify the current actions, where gaps are, and any further actions that need to be taken to address the risks. In addition, we recognised the importance of ensuring that clear messages were provided to parents, children and practitioners. We have been supportive of the recent report from the Safeguarding Board on that issue.

Public awareness is critical to addressing the issue. As Ministers, we will be happy to play our part through the events that give us the platform to do so, such as Safer Internet Day, to ensure that the correct messages are communicated and that children and young people stay safe. We have advised Minister Poots that the cross-departmental structure that we have developed for the Delivering Social Change framework provides the ideal opportunity to coordinate work on Internet safety across the Executive.

Mitchel McLaughlin (Sinn Féin, South Antrim)

That ends the period for listed questions. We will now move on to 15 minutes of topical questions.

Gerry Kelly (Sinn Féin, Belfast North)

1. asked the First Minister and deputy First Minister whether they agree that, given the result of the Scottish referendum, we should be arguing for the fullest possible transfer of fiscal powers to the Assembly. (AQT 1461/11-15)

Peter Robinson (DUP, Belfast East)

I am sure that the Member will join me in welcoming the outcome of the Scottish referendum and the strong desire to retain the Union with the rest of the United Kingdom. In welcoming that, I recognise that he wants to strengthen the Union by improving the structures in the United Kingdom. In that context, as I indicated earlier in Question Time, we already have a commitment from the United Kingdom Government in the economic pacts that were signed by the deputy First Minister and me with the Prime Minister, David Cameron, that we would consider all the fiscal levers to see what further powers should be devolved.

I do not accept the premise that simply transferring the economic levers into the hands of the Assembly will necessarily transform the social and economic policy of Northern Ireland. There is a limit to the impact that many of those taxes and other arrangements would have to enable the Executive to make real and meaningful change. There is no panacea to be found in that, but there would be a significant cost if we were to take over responsibility for some of those elements and had to operate them ourselves rather than having the economy of scale of the whole of the United Kingdom operating them.

Gerry Kelly (Sinn Féin, Belfast North)

Gabhaim buíochas leis an Chéad-Aire as a fhreagra. I thank the First Minister for his answer up to now. Let me not join him in welcoming the result of the referendum. However, there has been a referendum, and the issue at stake here — and I ask the First Minister again — is that there is certainly an impression that the DUP is not up for more power being brought to the Assembly. Does he not agree that, while Scotland is arguing for more powers, especially in the fiscal area with taxes and other matters, we should get as much power here as possible so that we can have an impact on the economy and the lives of people in the North as opposed to leaving it to the whim of people in London?

Peter Robinson (DUP, Belfast East)

The first things that we need to ask ourselves when we look at taking any additional power is whether we can operate it and do we have the cohesion in the Assembly and Executive to be able to take decisions on taxation matters. Secondly, if we had that power, would there be a financial incentive or advantage to us or would it simply be to tax more, which is the answer that some people will give? Thirdly, if we are going to have that power, would there be a cost to us in operating it? I suppose that there is a fourth question, which is this: what social or economic change can we bring about by exercising that power?

Look at some of the taxes that are available. I think that there would be little difficulty in us operating such a scheme as stamp duty land tax. It is doable. I do not think that it would transform the economy in Northern Ireland, and there would be a small cost attached to it. However, it certainly is doable. If VAT was to be considered, there would be some major EU difficulties with Northern Ireland being given those powers. Even if it was being devolved around the United Kingdom, there would be very considerable costs, although, on the upside, it would, for instance, allow you to look at hotels, restaurants and other tourist-led functions and reduce VAT to increase that element of the economy. So there are levers that you could use if you had VAT control. However, I do not think that we would get it, because of Europe, and there would be a cost to us exercising that power. Landfill tax is, again, doable, but is not going to bring the transformative change that the Member is looking for. Corporation tax is, in my view, doable and valuable, and we should continue to seek it. Income tax, which is being offered to the Scots and is up for referendum in Wales, would be a very considerable difficulty and would have a significant cost, as indeed would some of the other elements, such as National Insurance contributions. So it is no panacea. There are problems that need to be thoroughly investigated, and I am glad that the Department of Finance and Personnel is already preparing papers on each of those elements.

Pat Ramsey (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

2. asked the First Minister and deputy First Minister how they view the extension of voting rights to 16- and 17-year-olds in light of the Scottish referendum and the clear evidence that there was much greater participation by all generations, not just in the debate but in the vote, which some put down to the extension of those voting rights. (AQT 1462/11-15)

Peter Robinson (DUP, Belfast East)

Clearly, if you allow more people to vote, the possibility of increased voting is inevitable. However, participation was so high, right across Scotland, that it indicated that the issues at stake in this election were of such importance to the people of Scotland, of every age group, that we had a massive poll. Unfortunately, when we get around to parliamentary, Assembly or European elections, there are a whole range of issues. The importance of any significant issue does not outweigh your constitutional status. People come out depending on how important they view an election to be. That is the same whether you are 16 and 17 or 60 and 70.

Pat Ramsey (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

I thank the First Minister for his response. I think that he may have glossed over the particular point that I was making. Does the First Minister not believe that it is important to hear the views of our young people in particular, who feel marginalised and apathetic towards politics? Will he undertake a review, in conjunction with consulting with young people, of the role that young people should play in future elections?

Peter Robinson (DUP, Belfast East)

I am not sure that that is a transferred matter. Nonetheless, no matter what age is stipulated in legislation, a case can always be made for reducing it. If it was 16 and 17, people would come along and tell us that 15-year-olds are now more mature than they have ever been before and they are interested in politics, and we should reduce the voting age. And so it goes on, so that, along with your birth certificate, you will be registering for elections.

We need to recognise that there is an age when we can be certain that people understand the issues, are likely to come out in the appropriate numbers and have had sufficient experience of life to enable them to take key decisions. People are more capable of taking major decisions younger and younger. However, I am not sure that we have reached the stage where such a significant change should be made. Happily, that is a reserved matter for Westminster.

Mitchel McLaughlin (Sinn Féin, South Antrim)

Question 3 has been withdrawn within the appropriate procedures and time frame.

Pat Sheehan (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

4. asked the First Minister and deputy First Minister whether they can confirm that stakeholder engagement will formally address or consider all options to deal with any gaps identified in childcare provision following the introduction of a new childcare tax scheme, in the context of the proposed legislative consent motion on the Childcare Payments Bill. (AQT 1464/11-15)

Peter Robinson (DUP, Belfast East)

I will ask my colleague Jonathan Bell to answer that question.

Jonathan Bell (DUP, Strangford)

The Member raises a very important point about the replacement of the childcare scheme, which was repealed.

Therefore, if we were to continue with what was previously in existence, we would have to look at a legislative change. For all parents out there, we want to ensure that we have a simplified childcare tax scheme. The previous mechanism, for many parents to whom we have spoken, was cumbersome, difficult, complex and difficult to negotiate. I am sure that all Members' constituency offices, like mine, found it so. Therefore, we should look towards a simplified childcare scheme that looks towards the equivalent in tax and at how we could use that investment.

We want two wins: the first is to ensure that the benefit for those who need childcare increases, if at all possible; and the second is that it is used and taken up by a greater number of people. That will be our focus in the period to come.

Pat Sheehan (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

Go raibh maith agat. Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as ucht a fhreagra. Will the Department invite both Employers For Childcare and the ICTU, among others, to engage on their concerns about the new provision?

Jonathan Bell (DUP, Strangford)

Since taking office, I have been in a number of meetings with Employers For Childcare and with a range of trade union bodies. It is important that we listen to all the views expressed to see what can be done. I am pleased to inform the House that we have pushed ahead, not only in this scheme but in our Bright Start strategy. We have looked at where we can base that strategy in schools and use the existing school estate so that more young people can access the care that is there. We can develop the social enterprises and communities where there is limited childcare. Remember that, with school-age childcare, you can be one of up to 19 competing for a place in certain areas. We are looking at where we can use social enterprise and plough any profits that are made back into the community. We have looked at needs in rural areas, which was raised as an issue to us. I have specifically looked at a childminder scheme for the rural areas. Of most concern for lifting people out of poverty is the issue of deprivation. All of those issues have been tackled in OFMDFM's Bright Start scheme.

Colum Eastwood (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

5. asked the First Minister and deputy First Minister for their assessment of the progress of the north-west gateway initiative. (AQT 1465/11-15)

Peter Robinson (DUP, Belfast East)

I will ask junior Minister Jonathan Bell to answer the question.

Jonathan Bell (DUP, Strangford)

A number of meetings have taken place, particularly in relation to the One Plan and the interdepartmental working group that exists there. That group provides strategic analysis and advice to the Executive, other Departments and the Londonderry Strategy Board on the most appropriate means through which the Executive's policies, programmes and projects can positively impact on the themes and programmes that are identified in that plan. The group is also monitoring progress and providing a forum for the discussion and resolution of cross-cutting issues that affect more than one Department. The interdepartmental group meets formally twice a year, and the next meeting is scheduled for October. Progress continues to be made on the implementation of the One Plan across each of the catalyst programmes to grow the economy and provide more local jobs.

Colum Eastwood (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

Given that one of the key catalytic projects within the One Plan was the expansion of Magee, will the Minister or First Minister give their commitment to seeing that happen by 2020?

Jonathan Bell (DUP, Strangford)

The issue of the expansion of the University of Ulster at Magee is important. The Minister for Employment and Learning recognised that the One Plan foresaw the expansion of higher education in Londonderry as key to the city's regeneration. He is committed to the expansion of higher education throughout Northern Ireland.

The One Plan had an additional target of having 1,000 additional undergraduate places by 2015. The Minister for Employment and Learning has been able to increase the number of undergraduate places in the two universities by 1,210. The University of Ulster has received 652, and those have been deployed at Magee. Any expansion of undergraduate numbers beyond what has already been achieved would require additional recurring funding that, I understand, the Department for Employment and Learning currently does not have.

An economic appraisal for the expansion of Magee is being prepared by the Londonderry Strategy Board. The Employment and Learning Minister proposes, if the appraisal makes the case that expansion is in the best interests of Northern Ireland and the city, to submit a bid in the next comprehensive spending review.

Mitchel McLaughlin (Sinn Féin, South Antrim)

Time is up. We must now move on to questions to the Minister of the Environment.

Stephen Moutray (DUP, Upper Bann)

1. asked the Minister of the Environment how long a planning enforcement case takes from the case being reported until a prosecution or forced removal of the reported dwelling or business. (AQO 6637/11-15)

Mark Durkan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

Effective enforcement is an integral part of the planning process, and all alleged breaches of planning control are investigated.

My Department has a general discretion to take enforcement action when it regards it as expedient to do so. In determining the most appropriate course of action in response to alleged breaches of planning control, my Department will take into account the extent of the breach and its potential impact on the environment.

Planning enforcement can be a lengthy, protracted and complex process, with many issues and circumstances that may need to be considered. The Department's aim is to rectify the breach, and in many cases the breach is addressed without the need for formal enforcement action. For example, the applicant may submit a retrospective planning application to regularise the situation. In other cases, formal action is necessary. However, it may be held in abeyance until an application is determined or an enforcement notice is appealed, which can add many months on to the time taken to resolve a case. Other Departments and agencies can also have a bearing on the effective enforcement of planning control.

Given those various factors, it is therefore not possible to advise of a definitive timescale for dealing with enforcement investigations and any associated action taken. However, my Department has a business plan target to process to a conclusion 70% of cases within 39 weeks. The most recently published annual stats confirmed that, in 2013-14, 66% of enforcement cases were brought to a conclusion within that time period.

Stephen Moutray (DUP, Upper Bann)

I thank the Minister for his response. What assurances can he give the House today in relation to businesses, some of which are in my constituency, that open up, never apply for planning permission and are allowed to trade, sometimes for years, before any enforcement action is taken?

Mark Durkan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

Go raibh maith agat, a Phríomh-LeasCheann Comhairle. I thank Mr Moutray for the question and the supplementary question.

As outlined in my initial answer, the Department takes any alleged breach of planning control very seriously. Of course, operating or establishing a business without planning permission or even a planning application is such a breach and is therefore taken seriously. Unfortunately, the complexity of some of the cases, as well as the fact that many out there are willing, ready and able to exploit that complexity for their own ends, means that they can take a long time to pursue and to bring to a satisfactory conclusion.

I am aware of some of the cases in Mr Moutray's constituency to which he, no doubt, refers. Currently there are over 2,800 planning enforcement cases, so I am loath to go into the details of any specific application on the Chamber Floor. As I said, in an ideal world, people would apply for and comply with planning control, and, therefore, the Department and I take this very seriously. In advance of the transfer of the planning function to councils in particular, I am determined to make huge inroads into that frightening figure of 2,800 cases.