Northern Ireland Assembly, 20 October 2014

211 contributions from 53 members. The official report.

Assembly Business

Peter Weir (DUP, North Down)

I beg to move

That Standing Orders 10(2) to 10(4) be suspended for Monday 20 October 2014.

Gregory Campbell (DUP, East Londonderry)

On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. It is not related to this item of business. It is not a challenge to the ruling at all but purely for clarity. Last Tuesday, the Principal Deputy Speaker announced the outcome of an investigation into the honourable Member for North Antrim Mr Allister and curtailed his oral contributions in the Chamber over the next few weeks. Just for clarity, I want to establish whether it is the intention of the ruling to prevent Mr Allister putting down incisive, forensic and analytical written questions like the ones he did about the cost and condition of mint imperials in the Chamber.

John Dallat (Social Democratic and Labour Party, East Londonderry)

I understand that Mr Allister has been informed of what the situation is, and, yes, his speaking opportunities will be curtailed.

Before we proceed to the Question, I remind Members that this motion requires cross-community support.

Question put and agreed to.

Resolved (with cross-community support):

That Standing Orders 10(2) to 10(4) be suspended for Monday 20 October 2014.

Ministerial Statement

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. With your permission, I wish to make a statement in compliance with section 52 of the 1998 Act regarding the 23rd meeting of the North/South Ministerial Council (NSMC) in the agriculture sector, which was held in Armagh on Wednesday 1 October. The Executive were represented by Minister Simon Hamilton and me, and the Dublin Government were represented by Simon Coveney TD, Minister in the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine (DAFM), and Alan Kelly TD, Minister in the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government (DECLG).

I chaired the meeting on this occasion and have agreed the statement with the accompanying Minister, Minister Hamilton.

Ministers had a discussion on potential priorities for the agriculture sector and noted that those will be contained in a report to be considered at a future NSMC institutional meeting as part of the ongoing review into sectoral priorities.

On current sectoral priorities, Ministers noted the progress made in addressing key issues affecting the beef sector and agreed to continue to work together to secure a sustainable beef industry in both jurisdictions.

The Council noted that implementation plans have been adopted by DAFM and DARD for the common agricultural policy reforms agreed in 2013. Ministers agreed that officials from DAFM and DARD will monitor the development of the implementation process for pillar I and pillar 2 decisions. Ministers also noted that both Administrations are in the process of seeking approval from the European Commission for their respective rural development programmes 2014-2020, with DAFM having submitted its draft programme in July 2014 and DARD due to submit its programme later this month.

Ministers noted that DARD and DAFM have developed a protocol for the cross-border movement of larch logs infected with Phytophthora ramorum. It was noted that an all-Ireland Chalara/ash dieback conference took place in May 2014 and that DARD and DAFM are in the process of summarising stakeholders’ responses to key questions. That should assist in informing future policy development.

Ministers welcomed the continued work on the delivery of the all-island animal health and welfare strategy action plan, including the completed review of common disease surveillance priorities and the commitment to cooperation in areas of mutual benefit; the agreement by DARD and DAFM of a common chapter dealing with control arrangements for African horse sickness; the coming into operation of the Welfare of Animals at the Time Of Killing Regulations 2014; the progress made by DARD towards officially brucellosis-free (OBF) status, with DAFM now considering an appropriate OBF monitoring regime following the expiry of the mandatory five years; the progress made by DAFM officials to develop a code of practice for wild animals in circuses; and the achievement of an agreement in principle to a joint contingency approach on rendering facilities.

Ministers agreed the provision of proactive support by DARD and DECLG for LEADER cooperation activities, including a specific focus on North/South cooperation. The Council welcomed the intention of the steering committee on cross-border rural development to proactively promote the development of rural recreation as a key driver in successful rural regeneration. It noted that the rural development projects funded through EU INTERREG IVa are nearing completion and that a synopsis of the impacts and achievements of the rural development theme will be presented to the Council at a future meeting.

Ministers welcomed an event taking place later that day to mark the success of the Clones Erne East Blackwater project and the redevelopment of the canal stores building.

The NSMC approved the appointment of Mr Raymond Dolan as the new chief executive officer of the Food Safety Promotion Board (FSPB) with effect from 1 October. The Council also approved the appointment of Ms Margaret Hearty as acting CEO of the Trade and Business Development Body — InterTradeIreland — on an interim basis.

The Council agreed to hold the next agriculture sector meeting in spring 2015.

John Dallat (Social Democratic and Labour Party, East Londonderry)

Before calling the next Member to speak, I welcome Mr Maurice Devenney as a new Member for the DUP. I had the opportunity to meet Maurice earlier when he signed in. I hope that you have a long and happy career in the Northern Ireland Assembly.

William Irwin (DUP, Newry and Armagh)

I thank the Minister for her statement. She referred to the key issues affecting the beef sector and said that there is an agreement to work together to secure a sustainable beef industry. Will the Minister expand on that, please?

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

There are current and real issues affecting the beef sector, and the Member will be acutely aware of the issue of nomadic cattle. We had quite a lengthy discussion on how we can work together on that issue. From the discussion, it was very clear that we need to engage continually with the retailers to accept such cattle. It is a long tradition of trade right across the island. We have agreed to hold a number of meetings with the Retail Consortium to discuss those issues. I have agreed a voluntary label, and we want the industry to accept that. We are awaiting some more confirmation on some more discussions on that. The principal underlying issue affecting the beef sector is profitability. Even when prices were good, profitability was still an issue. There are real issues to tackle, and I look forward to being able to work with Minister Coveney, particularly on our new rural development programmes and on how we can support the beef sector in particular through all the programmes that we have outlined.

Oliver McMullan (Sinn Féin, East Antrim)

Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. I thank the Minister for her statement. Minister, you referred to the development of a code of practice for wild animals in circuses. Will you outline what progress has been made to date?

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

I am keen to take that forward. We have set up a working group to look at the issue. As I have said previously, it is important to note that there are no circuses based here; however, there are circuses in the Twenty-six Counties that travel, and it is important that we work together to agree a clear protocol and have that in place. To date, DARD has agreed a protocol with DAFM that provides for an inspection of animals from those registered circuses before they move back into the Twenty-six Counties. I have raised the issue of wild animals in travelling circuses over the last number of NSMC meetings, and we have had regular updates from officials. Our officials continue to work within the auspices of the North/South animal welfare and transport working group. Officials will report back to Minister Coveney and to me when they have considered all of the information available to them, but we are making progress towards having a protocol and ensuring that we are providing inspection. DARD will provide that inspection where it is needed.

Joe Byrne (Social Democratic and Labour Party, West Tyrone)

I thank the Minister for her statement. Will she further enlighten us on what progress has been made on the beef situation? Is legislation being seriously considered to provide cost-of-production pricing plus some profit margin for farmers? She will be aware that there are some lobbying groups who want legislation, and they want this Assembly to deal directly with Brussels in order to see what can be explored in that regard.

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

Absolutely. I support that principle in concept, and I am aware of the lobby. We are trying to scope out what we can do. I am very happy to go to Brussels and ask for a change in legislation where needed. The core issue affecting the beef sector is the fact that it is not profitable. Even when prices were high, profitability was an issue. That is what we need to grasp and tackle. We need to have a serious focus on the issue of efficiency in the beef sector. The core of the new rural development programme will be the new grants schemes and such, and we need to put a lot of emphasis and effort on supporting the beef sector so that it can become more efficient and profitable as a result.

Jo-Anne Dobson (UUP, Upper Bann)

I also thank the Minister for her statement. I noted with interest the reference to circus animals, as was pointed out by Oliver McMullan, but will the Minister expand on what is meant by:

"agreement, in principle, to a joint contingency approach on rendering facilities."?

Furthermore, what agreement has been made?

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

It means just what it says; that we have agreed, in principle, for officials to do the work and bring forward proposals for us to be able to have plans in place when we come to deal with rendering facilities. Really, that is what it is: there is political agreement for that to happen. Officials have been tasked to go ahead and do the homework on it and then bring that work to the next NSMC meeting.

Kieran McCarthy (Alliance, Strangford)

I thank the Minister for her statement this morning. Her statement references the all-Ireland ash die-back conference, which took place in May 2014. Will the Minister advise the Assembly whether this disease has been overcome throughout the island and whether an assessment has been made of the financial cost to both parts of the island as a result of that disease?

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

It certainly has not been overcome, and we continue to deal with it. We have a strategy across the island to work together and to tackle it. One benefit of that strategy is that it is moveable, depending on the disease status and how things change. We continue to put significant resources into tackling the outbreak of P ramorum. Tree disease is high up the agenda in the work that the Forest Service is taking forward. Forest Service also works very closely on the ground with, and is very dependent on the cooperation of, landowners. We are very grateful for that cooperation. I do not have the figures, but there is a cost there in revenue loss, and I am happy to provide that to the Member in writing.

Tom Buchanan (DUP, West Tyrone)

I also thank the Minster for her statement. In her response to the Chair of the Committee, she mentioned nomadic cattle. When will this matter be resolved, as it is a huge issue for the beef finishers here in Northern Ireland?

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

I am very keen for it to be resolved ASAP. For my part, I have done what I can do, which was to approve a voluntary label. It is now in the hands of the industry as to whether it accepts that label. I have made it very clear to all the big players that I want the label. The label is acceptable and is fully compliant with EU legislation. It is now up to them to accept it. Minister Coveney and I are meeting the key retailers to ask them to accept the approved voluntary label.

As I said, there has been a long tradition of trade, and quite a number of cattle have been traded in that way over the years. We do not want to disrupt that trade, so I am very keen to get it resolved ASAP.

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

I see that you discussed animal disease at the North/South Ministerial Council meeting. What are the figures for TB in the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland? What is the comparison? What steps are they taking in the Republic of Ireland and what can we learn from them to eradicate and reduce TB in Northern Ireland?

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

That is a regular item for discussion at NSMC meetings. I do not have the figures for their levels of TB, but I can tell you what our figures are. I am glad to say that our stats are on a downwards trend. We went from about 7·46% last year to just over 6% this year. So, there certainly has been progress, and hopefully that downward trend will continue.

I suppose that we approach things differently. The South culls in certain areas. That is obviously not the route that I have taken, although I know that there are some out there who would like that to be the case. We have set up the TB strategic partnership group, which has been tasked with the development of a comprehensive and practical strategy and an implementation plan to secure the progressive reduction of disease levels and the associated costs. We also have our EU eradication plan, which is worth about £5 million. So, a lot of work is going on.

I do not have the figures for the levels in the South, but I am very happy to provide that information to the Member in writing. However, it is suffice to say that having a different disease status affects trade across the island. I intend to have the same disease status across the island for TB and other diseases. We are getting there with brucellosis and hope to have our stat-free status next year. We have a way to go with TB, but it is a priority to drive it out in as quickly a manner as possible.

Tom Elliott (UUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

I thank the Minister for her brief statement. She mentioned the Clones Erne East Blackwater project. What stage is the section of the Ulster canal project at? I think that funding from the Irish Government for that has been agreed or, at least, promised, but that does not seem to have progressed.

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

I do not have the detail of that here, but there will certainly be opportunities to look at that type of project under the next rural development programme. I think that there will be funding opportunities. One of the areas that we discussed with the new Minister who is in charge of rural development in the South, Minister Kelly, was a potential strategic project. I am certainly up for playing my role to make sure that we can restore the canal to its former glory.

Assembly Business

John Dallat (Social Democratic and Labour Party, East Londonderry)

Before we continue with today's business, I wish to inform the House that I have been informed by the Chief Electoral Officer that Mr Maurice Devenney has been returned as a Member of the Assembly for the Foyle constituency to fill the vacancy resulting from the resignation of Mr William Hay. This morning, Mr Devenney signed the Roll of Membership and entered his designation in my presence and that of the Clerk to the Assembly. Mr Devenney has taken his seat. I again welcome him to the Assembly and wish him every success.

Private Members' Business

John Dallat (Social Democratic and Labour Party, East Londonderry)

I call the Lord Morrow to move the Consideration Stage of the Human Trafficking and Exploitation (Further Provisions and Support for Victims) Bill.

Moved. — [Lord Morrow.]

John Dallat (Social Democratic and Labour Party, East Londonderry)

Members will have a copy of the Marshalled List of amendments detailing the order for consideration. The amendments have been grouped for debate in the provisional grouping of amendments selected list.

There are five groups of amendments, and we will debate the amendments in each group in turn. The first debate will be on offences and penalties. This group comprises amendment Nos 1 through to 23, and amendment Nos 27, 40, 50, 60 and 61 as well as opposition to clauses 1, 2, 4 and 5 standing part.

The group 2 debate will be on amendment Nos 24 to 26 and 62 and opposition to clauses 7 and 15 standing part. This group deals with strategy and prevention.

The third debate deals with paying for sexual services. This group is made up of amendment Nos 28 to 39 and opposition to clause 6 standing part.

Group 4 deals with assistance, support and protection for victims of human trafficking and assistance for those wishing to exit prostitution. The debate will be on amendment Nos 41 to 49, 51 to 53 and opposition to clauses 8, 9, 10, 12 and 14 standing part.

The group 5 technical and commencement debate will be on amendment Nos 54 to 59, 63 and 64 and opposition to clauses 17 and 18 standing part.

I remind Members who intend to speak that, during the debates on the five groups of amendments, they should address all the amendments in each group on which they wish to comment. Once the debate on each group is completed, any further amendments in the group will be moved formally as we go through the Bill and the Question on each will be put without further debate. The Questions on stand part will be taken at the appropriate points in the Bill.

If that is clear, we shall proceed.

John Dallat (Social Democratic and Labour Party, East Londonderry)

We now come to the first group for debate, which concerns amendment Nos 1 to 23, and amendment Nos 27, 40, 50, 60 and 61 as well as opposition to clauses 1, 2, 4 and 5 standing part. These amendments provide for new offences, penalties and minimum sentencing in relation to human trafficking, slavery and exploitation. A new offence of forced marriage is also included.

Members will note that amendment Nos 1 to 4 are mutually exclusive with clause 1 standing part; amendment Nos 3 to 6, 12, 15, 21 to 23, 27 and 50 are consequential to amendment Nos 1 and 2; amendment No 18 is consequential to amendment No 17; amendment No 60 is consequential to amendment No 22; and amendment No 61 is consequential to amendment Nos 1, 2, 4 and 23.

I call Lord Morrow to address his opposition to clause 1 and to address the other oppositions and amendments in the group.

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.

The following amendments stood on the Marshalled List:

Maurice (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

Before I come to speak to the relevant amendments in this group, I want to open with some preliminary remarks about the purpose of my Bill.

The Bill has been long in the making and no one knows that better than the one who is speaking. The first consultation on the Human Trafficking and Exploitation Bill was launched in August 2012, and it has taken over two years for us to get to this stage. I have listened to and engaged with a wide range of stakeholders, and while the fundamental provisions of the Bill remain substantively the same, it is already significantly enhanced and revised, and I hope that it will be further revised by the amendments that I have tabled or co-signed, most of which have been in cooperation with the Minister of Justice.

Before I move to the substance of the amendments in this group, I would like to say thank you to a number of people who have contributed to my Bill so far. First, I would like to say thank you to everyone who submitted evidence to my initial consultation, to the consultation conducted by the Justice Committee and during the evidence sessions conducted by the Justice Committee. The quality of the evidence provided has been of a high standard, and I have put forward a number of amendments as a consequence of submissions that were made during the initial consultation and in the evidence given to the Justice Committee. This Bill undoubtedly will be a better Bill due to these contributions.

Secondly, I would like to pay tribute to the Justice Committee, which scrutinised the Bill. The Committee process was an onerous and lengthy one, and some of the evidence given was not easy to deal with. I am thankful to the Committee for its in-depth scrutiny, and I look forward to hearing contributions from its members during today's deliberations.

Thirdly and finally, I say thank you to the Minister of Justice and his team at the Department of Justice, particularly Julie Wilson, Simon Rogers and Alison Redmond. The Minister and his Department have engaged with me very constructively, which has led to many of the positive amendments that have been tabled. Of course, disagreements remain over particular parts of my Bill, which will be explored in due course, but it would be remiss of me not to thank the Minister and his team.

I also thank the Minister of Health —

David Ford (Alliance, South Antrim)

I thank the Member for giving way, and I trust, Mr Deputy Speaker, that you will allow me to make an intervention that is slightly longer than usual.

Lord Morrow recorded his gratitude to my team and to the Department, and I wish to record my gratitude to him for the constructive and positive way and the spirit of partnership with which he engaged with the Department over recent months. The Bill is undoubtedly still Lord Morrow's, but those who thought that Maurice Morrow and David Ford could not agree on anything have been proven wrong today by the unique way in which so many amendments have been signed by both of us. That is sign of the constructive engagement of which he spoke.

I add my thanks to Lord Morrow and to Mark Bailey, who has worked most closely with him, as well recording my thanks to Julie Wilson, whom he named, her team in the DOJ and other officials in DFP and DHSSPS who have assisted in ensuring that, by the end of today's debate, the fight against human trafficking in this jurisdiction will be in a much better place. Given the complexity of the Bill, I suspect that there are issues that we will need to revisit for the next stage, but I give a commitment that that constructive engagement will continue to Further Consideration Stage so that we get the best possible legislation for Northern Ireland. Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker.

Maurice (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

I thank the Minister very much for his comments. What he said adequately reflects the mood in which we have conducted ourselves on this side, on the Minister's side and in the Department. What he said clearly reflects the attitude that both of us brought to the table when we discussed the advancement of the Bill, even when it came to thorny issues.

I thank the Minister of Health, Social Services and Public Safety and his team of officials, who have also worked closely with me on a couple of key clauses, and the Attorney General, who has given ongoing advice, especially on issues to do with non-prosecution.

I want to explain the way in which the amendments have been tabled. Members will see that I am opposing a number of clauses standing part, the Minister, on other occasions, is opposing a number of clauses standing part and that, on most of the clauses, we have co-signed that they should not stand part. We have done that because we want to amend the clauses in question, and, procedurally, it is easier to remove them and to insert new clauses. I reassure Members that that approach does not mean that I have changed my mind on the principle or substance of the clauses. Rather, the objective of each clause remains the same, but the wording requires to be amended to ensure smooth operation in practice.

I move on to the substance of the clauses and the amendments, which are part of a very large group and that cover a variety of new offences and sentencing powers.

I am opposing clause 1 standing part due to developments that have resulted from the Modern Slavery Bill in Westminster. Members will remember that a draft Modern Slavery Bill was introduced last December, in which consolidated offences were proposed, bringing together previous legislation on human trafficking for sexual exploitation, forced labour and slavery. If accepted, that would have provided greater clarity for the police and prosecutors in seeking to tackle those crimes.

As a result of that Bill, the Department of Justice consulted on similar offences for Northern Ireland through its consultation document, 'Human Trafficking and Slavery: Strengthening Northern Ireland's Response'. The new offences that we will debate today are the result of that consultation. It is important that we have as consistent an approach as possible across the UK on the definitions of those offences.

When I introduced my Bill, the Modern Slavery Bill had not been introduced at Westminster, and we had not had sight of these proposed new offences. Consequently, in light of the changes that have occurred since I introduced my Bill, it is appropriate for clause 1 of my Bill to be replaced. Amendment No 1 introduces new clause 1A, which would introduce a consolidated offence of slavery, servitude and forced or compulsory labour. That new offence would replace the existing offence that currently applies under section 71 of the Coroners and Justice Act 2009. New clause 1A would make it an offence knowingly to hold another person in servitude or slavery or knowingly to require another person to perform forced or compulsory labour. Clause 1A(2) defines clearly what is meant by slavery, servitude and forced or compulsory labour by explicitly referring to article 4 of the Human Rights Convention.

Taken together, clause 1A(3) and clause 1A(4) outline that in deciding whether a person is a victim of an offence under this clause, regard may be had to an individual's personal circumstances. It would particularly take into account any personal circumstances that would make an individual more vulnerable than others to exploitation.

Clause 1A(5) embeds in law what clause 2 of my Bill sought to achieve: the victim's consent to any part of the offence committed against them under clause 1A is irrelevant.

Lastly, clause 1A(6) ensures that offences of slavery, servitude and forced or compulsory labour in Northern Ireland can be tried only on indictment. This is a different approach to that taken in the Modern Slavery Bill but fits with the way in which human trafficking offences are currently tried in Northern Ireland. Members will remember that we agreed to move to such trafficking cases being tried only in a Crown Court when we passed the Criminal Justice Act (Northern Ireland) 2013. In England and Wales, cases can be heard in a Magistrates' Court as well as in a Crown Court.

Amendment No 2 introduces new clause 1B. This clause would create a consolidated offence of human trafficking to replace the current separate offences of human trafficking for the purposes of sexual exploitation and human trafficking for other forms of exploitation that are set out in sections 57 to 59 of the Sexual Offences Act 2003 and section 4 of the Asylum and Immigration (Treatment of Claimants, etc.) Act 2004. Under new clause 1B, it would be an offence to arrange or facilitate the travel of another person with a view to them being exploited. The offence would cover all forms of exploitation as defined under new clause 1C.

Clause 1B(2) clarifies that arranging or facilitating travel may include transporting, transferring, harbouring or receiving the victim, or transferring or exchanging control over them. This addition goes beyond existing trafficking offences and makes it clear that the full international definition of the act of trafficking set out in the Palermo Protocol applies. I warmly welcome that development.

Clause 1B(3) makes it clear that an offence has been committed whether the person intends to exploit the victim themselves, or knows or ought to know that another person is likely to exploit them.

Clause 1B(4) defines travel comprehensively to mean entering into, departing from or travelling within any country. Clause 1B(5), like clause 1A(5), replicates the effect of clause 2 of my Bill by ensuring that a victim's consent to any act forming part of the offence is irrelevant.

Clause 1A(6), clause 1A(7) and clause 1A(8), taken together, address the international dimension of human trafficking. In line with clause 1A(6), clause 1B(9) ensures that an offence under this clause can be tried on indictment only.

Amendment No 3 introduces new clause 1C. This clause defines what constitutes exploitation for the purposes of a human trafficking offence under new clause 1B. In doing so, it consolidates the relevant provisions of what currently constitutes exploitation in respect of the existing offences of human trafficking and extends the categories of exploitation to include a number of additional measures that had previously been included in clause 5 of the Bill. These were and are intended to bring extra clarity to what constitutes exploitation of forced labour, and I hope that Members will appreciate that they have not been lost in the process of consolidation. These additional measures include a clarification that "benefits of any kind" include "the proceeds of forced begging" or "criminal activities" and that securing services by force includes the use of coercion, abduction or fraud to induce a person to provide services.

I also draw to Members' attention that we have taken the opportunity of consolidating these definitions to make it clear that there will be a different approach to securing services or benefits from children or vulnerable adults. Proposed new clause 1C(6) sets out that an offence can be committed where there is no use of force or coercion in making the victim provide the services, where the victim is a child or a vulnerable person. The existing legislation attempted to deal with these situations where the victims' particular vulnerability is exploited in this way; however, it used rather vague terms, such as "young" rather than stipulating that the person is a child.

Amendment No 4 introduces new clause 1D. Under article 66 of the Sexual Offences (Northern Ireland) Order 2008, it is an offence to commit an offence:

"with the intention of committing a relevant sexual offence".

Sections 57 to 59 of the Sexual Offences Act 2003 provide that relevant sexual offences include offences of human trafficking for the purpose of sexual exploitation and, under article 66 of the Sexual Offences Order (Northern Ireland) 2008, preparatory offences, which include offences of "aiding, abetting, counselling or procuring" such an offence. However, as has been the case in many areas of trafficking legislation, these preparatory offences have applied only to human trafficking for the purposes of sexual exploitation and not for human trafficking for forced labour or of slavery, servitude and forced or compulsory labour offences.

New clause 1D is one of many changes that will be made to the Bill to bring parity in the way that the criminal justice system treats human trafficking and slavery offences. It will create a new preparatory offence similar to that under article 66 of the 2008 Order, which would apply where an individual commits an offence with the intention of committing any slavery-like or trafficking offence under new clauses 1A or 1B. This will mean that lesser offences — for example, stealing a vehicle — that are committed in preparation for and with the intention of committing a slavery or trafficking offence will be eligible for a longer sentence, due to the connection with slavery or trafficking. These offences acknowledge that slavery and human trafficking often involve a chain of events and a range of people at different levels and stages but that they all contribute to the ultimate result of trafficking or forced labour.

In applying this preparatory offence to slavery-like offences, my Bill will go beyond the provisions of the Modern Slavery Bill, in which the equivalent preparatory offence would apply only in respect of human trafficking offences under clause 2 of that Bill. An offence under new clause 1D would ordinarily attract a maximum sentence of 10 years on indictment or six months and/or a fine on summary conviction. Where, however, the offence is committed by kidnapping or false imprisonment, it would attract a life sentence.

I hope that Members will feel that the four new clauses that I have outlined will give Northern Ireland a robust criminal law framework to take the Province forward in tackling these awful crimes. I urge all Members to vote in support of the proposed new clauses.

The purpose of clause 2 is to set out the situations in which the consent of a victim of trafficking or slavery will be considered irrelevant in the context of a criminal offence. The issue of consent, or lack of it, is now covered by the text of new clauses 1A and 1B. Consequently, clause 2 no longer needs to remain in the Bill and should be removed. I urge Members to oppose clause 2 standing part of the Bill.

Amendment No 5 introduces a new clause 2A. It seeks to amend the Criminal Justice (Northern Ireland) Order 2008 to classify the new slavery and human trafficking offences under new clauses 1A and 1B as serious offences for the purposes of sentencing dangerous offenders under schedule 1 to the 2008 Order. It also amends schedule 2 to the Order to classify human trafficking and slavery offences as violent offences under part 1 of the schedule and to classify human trafficking for sexual exploitation as a specified sexual offence for the purposes of sentencing dangerous offenders under part 2 of the schedule. In so doing, the clause will allow the court, where it considers it necessary for the purposes of public protection, to set down a life sentence, an indeterminate custodial sentence or an extended custodial sentence. Members will know that there is a significant increase in potential penalties from the previous arrangements, where the maximum penalty was 14 years. I hope that Members will support the very strong signal that offenders of those awful crimes committed in Northern Ireland will be treated extremely severely.

I am very pleased to have tabled amendment Nos 6 to 14 together with the Minister. Members will remember that I included a clause on aggravating factors in my Bill because the European directive and the European convention on trafficking include particular elements that indicate that a higher penalty should be given to a perpetrator. I recognise that setting out such factors is an unusual step to take, but it is not without precedent in the United Kingdom: aggravating factors are set out in section 4A of the Misuse of Drugs Act 1971, as introduced by section 1 of the England and Wales Drugs Act 2005.

Amendment Nos 6 to 14 are a series of small, technical amendments that ensure that the text aligns with other pieces of legislation and add clarity to the definitions of "public official", "vulnerable adult" and a "member of the family of the victim". In all those cases, the purpose and effect of the clause remains the same. However, the amendments will make the text more effective, and areas of uncertainty will be removed. The Minister and I have agreed on the amendments outlined, and I urge all sides of the House to support them. Members will see that there are a considerable number of amendments that we will discuss shortly that bring in new powers on sentencing, such as in proposed new clauses 5A to 5D. The inclusion of specific aggravating factors is a helpful addition to the substantial efforts being made to tackle perpetrators severely.

The Minister made clear his opposition to the principle of clause 4 at Second Stage, and he is seeking to have it removed from the Bill today. I clearly state that I strongly and emphatically disagree with the Minister on this. In the past, as, I am sure, he will today, the Minister stated that introducing a minimum sentence would unduly fetter the discretion of judges to impose an appropriate sentence.

That, however, simply does not stand up to scrutiny.

In the first instance, the Assembly frequently imposes limits on the sentences that can be handed down by judges. Judges do not have absolute discretion to impose whatever sentence they would like. For example, it would be manifestly unjust for a judge to impose a life sentence on a person who was caught shoplifting, and the relevant statute does not allow a judge to do so. If we as an Assembly can fetter the discretion of a judge in terms of the maximum penalty he or she can impose for an offence, why can we not do so in terms of minimum sentences?

In the second instance, in answer to that question and of vital importance, Northern Ireland already has minimum sentences. Article 70 of the Firearms (Northern Ireland) Order 2004, which was passed in this House in 2004, imposes minimum sentences for a range of firearms-related offences, and schedule 2 of the Violent Crime Reduction Act 2006, which applies to Northern Ireland, imposes a minimum sentence for the offence of using someone else to hide or carry a dangerous weapon so as to make the weapon available for the first person to use for an unlawful purpose. I doubt that we will hear anyone argue today for the repeal of article 70 of the Firearms Order or schedule 2 of the Violent Crime Reduction Act, but that is vital if one is really opposed to the principle of imposing minimum sentences in statute.

The truth is that, whether one considers minimum or maximum sentences, it is entirely appropriate for legislatures to set out the seriousness of an offence by determining the order of penalty that is required. That does not remove judicial discretion any more than defining an offence in statute does. It is very proper that a legislature should be able to define an offence and its seriousness as that relates to sentencing. Judicial discretion remains very much alive and well between minimum and maximum sentences.

Clause 4 rises to that challenge to make it plain that we in the Assembly, the lawmaking body on justice in Northern Ireland, regard human trafficking and slavery as very serious crimes and want would-be offenders to be fully cognisant of that fact before they consider trafficking or holding someone in slavery in Northern Ireland. That is a completely legitimate view for the Assembly to take and one that clause 4 helps to deliver.

To those who, despite those, in my judgement, overwhelming arguments, may still have questions, I will make two further points. First, with the help of the Attorney General we have been able to draft a sophisticated and balanced clause. I will shortly outline my amendments, which send out a very important message to would-be offenders whilst not removing judicial discretion.

Crucially, clause 4 gives judges the freedom to derogate from the two years in exceptional circumstances, although they must account for doing so. Secondly, they should also be aware that, in dealing with the serious crime that we are discussing today, it is a measure that the public supports. An Ipsos MORI poll conducted in August included the following question:

"A proposal has been put forward at the Northern Ireland Assembly to introduce a required minimum sentence of two years for those people convicted of human trafficking or slavery offences within the country. The proposal allows for judges to set a lower sentence in very exceptional circumstances. Do you believe that it is appropriate for such a minimum sentence to be introduced?"

Some 65% of people responded to that question with the answer "yes" and 54% said that they believed that very strongly.

I believe that it is a timely and very well conceived provision that will be very much to the benefit of Northern Ireland. I warmly commend it and urge the House to vote against the motion that clause 4 should not stand part of the Bill.

I will now address the amendments in detail. Amendment No 15 is a technical amendment that links clause 4 to the new consolidated offences. Amendment No 16 would amend clause 4 so that the minimum sentence framework would not apply to children. It was an oversight in the initial Bill that the sentence would apply to children. I am grateful to the Member for East Antrim, the Minister of Justice, who pointed that out at Second Stage.

Amendment No 17 would ensure that, if a judge decides that there are exceptional circumstances that justify not imposing the two-year minimum custodial sentence, they must state their reasons in open court. Amendment No 18 requires the reasons to be recorded by the chief clerk. This ensures that, where there are exceptional circumstances that mean either a lower sentence or a suspended sentence is appropriate, the court is able to give such a sentence, but the reasons need to be given in open court. This will help to ensure that judges are accountable for the sentences that they impose, ensuring that such decisions are taken in a reasoned way. It will also bring clarity about such exceptional decisions for the general public and help to maintain public trust in the sentencing regime.

My amendment No 19 arises out of the concern that —

Tom Elliott (UUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

Will the Member give way?

Maurice (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

Right, OK, I will.

Tom Elliott (UUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

I appreciate the Member giving way. I just have a very short query about the last two amendments, under which the court has to give an explanation as to why it may give a lesser or more lenient sentence. I just wonder whether the Member has any ideas or are there any guidelines in statute at the moment as to why a more lenient sentence might even be given. Is it just left to the discretion of the judiciary?

Maurice (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

I will come to that point in a moment or two. I listened carefully to what the Member said in relation to that.

My amendment No 19 arises out of the concern that, under the clause as currently drafted, it would be technically possible for a court to hand down a two-year suspended sentence. This outcome would undermine the ability of the clause to deliver the clear message that I believe we should send to traffickers. I am very grateful to the Attorney General for spotting that loophole and for suggesting a means to plug it by defining a custodial sentence as not including a suspended sentence, but allowing for such a sentence in exceptional circumstances.

Amendment No 20 introduces a series of technical consequential amendments to ensure that the sentencing framework in other relevant legislation includes the proposed minimum sentence. The changes I am putting forward here reflect the same changes on sentencing as in the minimum sentence in article 70 of the Firearms (Amendment) (Northern Ireland) Order 2004. Under new subsection 4(2D), the Attorney General may refer a sentence for review if the judge fails to impose the minimum sentence. Under new subsection 4(2E), the courts cannot give the perpetrator an absolute and conditional discharge, a probation order, a community service order or an order combining community service and probation. Under new subsection 4(2F), that new minimum sentence would be reflected in the same way as other minimum sentences in legislation setting custodial sentences.

My clause 5 outlines some policy changes I believe should take place to the current Asylum and Immigration Act 2004. However, I am glad to reassure Members that the proposals that I made in clause 5 have been incorporated into new clauses 1A to 1C. In light of those changes, I am content that clause 5 is no longer needed and should not stand part of the Bill.

I strongly support amendment Nos 21 to 30, 27, 60 and 61 to bring in new sentencing powers that reflect provisions in the Modern Slavery Bill. These are amendments that are proposed by the Minister and to which I have added my name. They are complicated provisions that I will set out in broad terms in the next few minutes and allow the Minister to deal with any points of detail.

Amendment No 21 will make it easier for assets to be recovered from those convicted of human trafficking and slavery offences by designating new clauses 1A and 1B as criminal lifestyle offences for the purpose of the Proceeds of Crime Act 2002. It seems clear to me that any measure that will make it easier to recover assets from those who commit these offences is worthy of support. It is crucial that perpetrators of these crimes can have any assets that they have gained through committing them confiscated.

Amendment Nos 22 and 60 introduce new clause 5B and the related schedule 1. Those amendments would allow courts to order the confiscation of land, vehicles, ships or aircraft if they were used or were intended to be used in connection with human trafficking and slavery offences. Under the Sexual Offences Act 2003, those powers are available in Northern Ireland and will continue to be available through the new consolidated offences in this clause.

Amendment Nos 23 and 61 introduce new clause 5C and schedule 2 to allow the court to order an offender to pay a reparation order. That will provide another avenue through which victims can gain some level of compensation for what they have suffered. The advantage of a reparation order over the criminal injuries compensation scheme is that the money comes directly from the perpetrator's assets, if they have any that can be claimed. I am particularly pleased that the courts must consider setting down a reparation order, and, if they do not do so, the judge must outline why they have not done so. However, the point should be emphasised that the orders do not stop a victim making a claim from the state, as well as through the criminal injuries compensation scheme. They simply offer another way of obtaining money to benefit victims.

Amendment No 27 introduces new clause 5G, which will maintain the content of clause 7(2) and 7(3) of my initial Bill in a separate new clause inserted in the most appropriate part of the Bill now that there are new clauses on other criminal justice matters. I believe that the clause is necessary to make it crystal clear to those investigating or seeking to prosecute the perpetrators of these offences that such action is not dependent on the victim reporting that the offence has occurred or accusing an individual of committing such an offence.

As I have said all along, this is a Bill about exploitation. Amendment No 40 has been tabled by the Minister of Finance and Personnel and would introduce a new offence of forced marriage to Northern Ireland. The offence was not included in the initial version of the Bill that I introduced in 2013. However, I am happy for it to be included. It is manifestly obvious to me that forced marriage is a form of exploitation. The offence is based on a similar offence that passed into law in England and Wales earlier this year. I will allow the Minister to speak about the matter further in his contribution.

Amendment No 50 pertains to clause 13 of my Bill, which seeks to protect victims during the course of criminal investigations. I will speak more about this clause later. Amendment No 50 links the protections of clause 13 to the offences that we are introducing through amendment Nos 1 and 2. Amendment No 50 also extends the provision of the measures to victims of offences under new clauses 1A and 1B. Originally, the clause provided the protection only to victims of human trafficking, following the England and Wales regulations and the EU anti-trafficking directive. However, I have since concluded that the vulnerability of victims of slavery offences is such that this special treatment should be available for those victims, as well as for those who have been trafficked.

Paul Givan (DUP, Lagan Valley)

With your indulgence, Mr Deputy Speaker, before addressing the amendments, I wish to make some general remarks about the Bill in my capacity as Chairman of the Committee for Justice.

First, I commend Lord Morrow on introducing this very important Bill to the Assembly. I know the commitment and tenacity that he has shown and the hard work and perseverance that it has taken to get the Bill to this stage of the process, and I congratulate him on that. Speaking in the capacity of party colleague, I can say that we are immensely proud of the way in which Lord Morrow has championed the Bill and spent over two years dedicating himself, heart and soul, to bringing forward this legislation. We have huge admiration for the way in which he has conducted himself, at times in the face of very difficult challenges that were being posed to him. He has very carefully and studiously avoided getting involved in confrontation and dealt methodically with all the issues that have been brought his way.

I have no doubt that, when we look back on what, I trust, will be the Bill's successful passage through the House, we will see this day as being a historic occasion. I trust that Lord Morrow will look back with immense pride that he led on the Bill and brought it to this stage and that the Assembly supported him. Indeed, on behalf of my colleagues, I would go as far as to say — this is no exaggeration — that, in bringing the Bill forward, we regard Lord Morrow as a modern-day William Wilberforce. I have no doubt that he would put his imprimatur on the Bill and endorse its content fully. I cannot speak highly enough of our colleague and party chairman, and I am very proud to have been able to support him in some way in getting to this point. It is important that we put that on the record.

As I have said on numerous occasions and as the Justice Committee has heard at first hand, human trafficking is a heinous crime that devastates people's lives and that needs to be tackled from every possible angle. In 2012, when the Committee considered the Criminal Justice Bill, which created two new human trafficking offences, we made it very clear to the Minister of Justice that we wanted the strongest possible legislation to be introduced in Northern Ireland for human trafficking. In the evidence that the Committee received during the passage of that Bill, it was clear that a number of organisations believed that the Department was adopting a minimalist approach in implementing the EU directive on human trafficking and had missed an opportunity to put additional measures into legislation, particularly in relation to the protection, assistance and support of victims, including children, and the availability of proper investigative tools.

There is no doubt that Lord Morrow, through his Bill, is changing that approach and ensuring that the legislation in this country to deal with human trafficking is much improved. His Bill will also address one of the other criticisms raised at that time, which related to the complexity and piecemeal approach to the legislative framework for offences concerning human trafficking and the need for a single comprehensive piece of legislation that would assist in increasing the understanding of the justice framework for dealing with the crime and awareness of it.

Given the importance of the Bill and the interest expressed, the Committee spent considerable time undertaking detailed and careful scrutiny of the then 19 clauses. After completion of Committee Stage, we have continued to consider a range of proposed amendments, most recently in September, following which the Committee wrote to all Assembly Members outlining the updated position.

The Committee sought a wide range of views as part of its deliberations on the Bill and requested evidence from interested organisations and individuals as well as from the Department of Justice. Over 139 written submissions were received, and the Committee took oral evidence from a wide range of witnesses, including voluntary organisations that provide support to trafficked victims and work with those involved in prostitution; academics; Church and faith-based representatives; individuals who are or were involved in prostitution; the Police Service; the Public Prosecution Service; officials from the Department of Justice; the Minister of Health, Social Services and Public Safety; and the Attorney General for Northern Ireland. Lord Morrow, as Bill sponsor, also attended the Committee on several occasions to discuss the Bill's provisions and possible amendments.

To assist its consideration of clause 6, the Committee undertook a visit to Sweden in December 2013 to meet government and non-government representatives to discuss its legislation, which criminalises the purchase of sex. We also met the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality in Dublin in January 2014 to discuss the findings of its report on a review of legislation on prostitution, which recommends the introduction of a summary offence penalising the purchase of sexual services of another person by means of prostitution or any request, agreement or attempt to do so.

It is clear that the Committee scrutinised and considered all aspects of the Bill in a full and thorough manner. I thank the members of the Committee for their diligence and contributions during the Committee Stage process. I put on record my thanks to those no longer on the Committee: Mr Jim Wells; Mr William Humphrey, who I see is here with us; Mr Sydney Anderson; and Ms McCorley. It is fair to say that some members came with a differing viewpoint at the start of the process, but I have no doubt that the scrutiny carried out and the challenges made led to the robust legislation that we have today. It was a demonstration of how the Assembly and the Justice Committee do work and can do a course of work in which all the political parties can operate together, albeit with differing viewpoints at times. The outcome of that work is a demonstration of how business can be done in the Assembly. This legislation is testimony to that.

As Lord Morrow said, it was not an easy task, and some of the oral evidence on personal experiences was difficult and distressing to hear. I also thank the witnesses who provided written and oral evidence, particularly those who shared with the Committee their personal experiences of trafficking and prostitution, which was not easy for them. I thank Lord Morrow, who, very helpfully, provided further information and kept the Committee informed of developments relating to the Bill, and the Department of Justice officials who kept us updated with developments relating to the Modern Slavery Bill in Westminster and the related provisions for Northern Ireland.

I believe that today is historic — it is an historic opportunity to seize the moment. Northern Ireland and the Assembly can lead on this issue in the United Kingdom and on the island of Ireland. I hope that Members, as we go through the various debates on the groups of amendments, will reflect and come together to send a clear message. I hope that we will seize the moment to make a difference in our society for the most vulnerable. That is what is at the core of the legislation: the protection and support of the most vulnerable.

I turn now to clauses 1, 2 and 5 and the amendments to introduce new clauses 1A, 1B, 1C, 1D and 2A. In the evidence received by the Committee, there was support for the clarity provided in clause 1 on the definition of human trafficking. The inclusion of forced labour was also welcomed, with views expressed that all forms of modern-day slavery should be covered under a unified piece of legislation. There was similar support for clause 5, which provides for the inclusion of additional definitions in the Asylum and Immigration (Treatment of Claimants, etc.) Act 2004 to mirror the EU directive, particularly in relation to forced begging.

During Committee Stage, the Department told the Committee that, as a result of the draft Modern Slavery Bill, which was published by the Home Secretary on 16 December 2013, it was undertaking a consultation on proposals to strengthen the response to human trafficking and slavery in Northern Ireland. The Committee was content with clauses 1 and 5 but noted that the results of the Department’s consultation, which included proposals to simplify and consolidate the legislative framework for human trafficking and slavery offences, would have a bearing on both clauses and that amendments may be needed.

On clause 2, all organisations that submitted evidence agreed that a victim’s consent should be irrelevant in cases of human trafficking or slavery offences. However, there were differing views on whether clause 2 was necessary, given the law already in place. While some were of the opinion that the provision was unnecessary and that enacting it may give rise to complications, others indicated that it was important to provide clarity on when a victim’s consent should be considered irrelevant. They highlighted the 2013 Anti-Trafficking Monitoring Group report, which indicated that there seemed to persist an incorrect view that a trafficked person needed to be abducted or forced to come to the United Kingdom against their will.

When Lord Morrow attended a Committee meeting to discuss the Bill, he recognised that there had been considerable debate on whether clause 2 was required but said that, in his view, stating the need for the consent of victims to be irrelevant was important. He also advised the Committee that amendments would be required to the clause, depending on the outcome of the Department’s consultation. The Committee agreed that it was content to support clause 2, but noted that amendments may be needed.

More recently, departmental officials attended a Committee meeting on 10 September 2014 to outline the further work that had been carried out in conjunction with Lord Morrow following the consultation exercise and the range of amendments that is in front of us today. The aim of the amendments, which will replace clauses 1, 2 and 5, is to repeal existing offences and to create a series of new, consolidated offences and definitions relating to human trafficking, exploitation and slavery, servitude and forced or compulsory labour. They will also create new penalties. Amendment No 21 will enable slavery-like and human trafficking offences to be specified as criminal lifestyle offences, which will improve the courts’ ability to confiscate criminal assets. Amendment Nos 22 and 60 will enable the courts to order the forfeiture of land vehicles, ships or aircraft that were used or intended for use in connection with human trafficking or slavery-like offences; and amendment Nos 23 and 61 will make provision for the courts to impose new slavery and trafficking reparation orders under which offenders convicted of the offences under new clauses 1A, 1B or 1D will be required to pay reparation to their victims.

The Committee is content with the approach adopted by Lord Morrow and the Minister, and the new penalties obviously strengthen the ability of the police and the courts to deal with the perpetrators of human trafficking and are therefore very welcome indeed. The Committee also welcomes the fact that the new offences will be triable on indictment only, particularly as we used the Criminal Justice Bill to ensure that that would be the case when the new human trafficking offences where being brought forward at that time, and notes that they clarify that the victim’s consent to any part of an offence under these new clauses is irrelevant, thus delivering the intended effect of clause 2.

The Committee also supports new clause 2A, which will bring the new offences under the scope of the public protection sentencing framework enabling a court, where it considers it necessary, to impose a life sentence, an indeterminate custodial sentence or an extended custodial sentence, with the result that individuals subject to such sentences will also be subject to the relevant release, licence and recall arrangements.

Moving on to clause 3, the key issue is whether the aggravating factors that a court must consider when passing sentence for human trafficking or slavery offences should be set in statute and, if so, whether that will limit judicial discretion or whether sentencing guidelines would be preferable. The evidence received by the Committee indicated that, while a few organisations preferred sentencing guidelines, there was strong support for clause 3 from the majority of respondents, who felt that the aggravating factors should be set out in the Bill and considered that that approach was not inconsistent with judicial discretion.

The Department initially expressed concern that setting aggravating factors in statute would limit flexibility in responding to emerging case law and fetter the discretion of judges and was of the view that sentencing guidelines would be a better vehicle to respond flexibly to case law as it emerged. However, in light of the strong support in the evidence to the Committee, officials advised that the Minister would support clause 3 but indicated that a number of technical amendments were required. When considering clause 3, the Committee noted the opinion of the Attorney General for Northern Ireland that there was no obstacle to the legislature setting out a series of aggravating factors, that it was not inconsistent with judicial discretion in sentencing, and that the sentencing judge retained discretion to consider factors other than those set out by statute in reaching his or her decision on sentence. The Committee agreed that it was content with clause 3, subject to the technical amendments proposed by the Department and which have been brought forward today.

I turn now to clause 4 and the associated amendments brought by Lord Morrow. When the Committee considered clause 4, two particular issues arose: whether the inclusion of a minimum sentence in legislation regarding human trafficking and slavery offences fettered judicial discretion; and the fact that the compulsory minimum sentence applied to children. There was unanimity in the view that it was unacceptable for clause 4 to apply equally to children and adults and that it required amendment to clarify that the minimum sentence provision does not apply to children. The Committee agreed with this view, and Lord Morrow indicated that he intended to bring forward amendments to make the necessary changes, which he has done today.

With regard to whether clause 4 fetters judicial discretion, there was a much wider range of views, with organisations such as the Law Centre, the PSNI and Victim Support expressing concern that the application of minimum sentencing would compromise judicial discretion. Other key stakeholders welcomed the clause, stating that incorporating a minimum sentence in the legislation was a necessary deterrent, that it sent a strong message to the perpetrators of human trafficking, and that the wording used still provided for judges to apply discretion. The Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission agreed with this interpretation, advising that, in its view, the figure of two years proposed as the minimum sentence was not arbitrary but reflected a subtle increase in current sentencing practice and that the clause allows for judicial discretion because exceptional circumstances are written into it.

From the start, the Minister of Justice indicated to the Committee that he had concerns regarding a compulsory minimum sentence, and he intends to oppose the clause today. When the Committee discussed the clause with departmental officials, they stated that compulsory minimum sentences were rarely specified in law, reflecting the principle that judges should normally be free to take account of all available evidence and the unique circumstances in a particular case, allowing them to reach a decision on sentencing that fits the crime. In their view, clause 4 would restrict the scope for judicial discretion.

When pressed on the issue of judicial discretion by Committee members, officials accepted that clause 4 did not, strictly speaking, introduce a compulsory minimum custodial sentence, as there was qualification to permit judicial discretion, but were of the view that it was better not to have a range of statutory provisions that would then have an exemption in them and that, instead, discretion should be left entirely in the hands of the judiciary.

The Committee availed itself of the opportunity to discuss the concerns raised regarding clause 4 with the Attorney General when he attended in March. He indicated that the clause does not make provision for a hard minimum sentence model, and the provision for the retention of discretion for the judge to impose a sentence below the minimum threshold, where there are exceptional circumstances, allows flexibility for judges to depart from the statutory minimum. He suggested that it might be desirable to include an obligation for reasons to be stated by the judge if a case is considered exceptional, which would strike an appropriate balance between the policy imperative of an effective minimum sentence and the requirement to do justice in the individual case. The Committee for Justice is clear in its support for a robust sentencing framework that reflects the gravity of human trafficking and slavery offences and indicates the seriousness with which such offences are viewed in Northern Ireland.

When considering clause 4, a number of Committee members expressed some reservations about the broad concept of including minimum sentences in legislation. They were concerned that the clause could interfere with judicial discretion in individual cases, that the majority of cases would become exceptional or that appeals in respect of the severity of the sentence based on whether the judge had given appropriate weight to the exceptional circumstances put forward would arise. They indicated that they wished to consider the arguments further before supporting the clause's inclusion in the Bill.

Other Committee members, including me, were content that sufficient qualification is provided to ensure that there is not an absolute minimum sentence and that it does not exclude judicial discretion. We viewed the clause as being persuasive on the court to impose a two-year sentence but not binding on it. We also welcomed the proposal for an amendment to require a judge to state the reasons if a decision is reached that the case is exceptional and the minimum sentence should not be imposed, viewing that as an appropriate mechanism to address concerns around exceptional cases becoming the norm.

The Committee agreed to support clause 4, subject to amendments to restrict a minimum sentence for a human trafficking offence to adults only, to ensure that the sentence is an immediate custodial sentence and not a suspended sentence and to require a court to state the reasons that a case is considered exceptional. Amendment Nos 15, 16, 17, 18, 19 and 20 tabled by Lord Morrow address those issues. I hope that the other Committee members who, when we were completing the Committee Stage of the Bill, required further time to reflect on the clause, are able to support its inclusion in the Bill today once it has been amended as outlined.

Clause 7 sets out requirements for investigation and prosecution, including that there must be sufficient training and resources for investigating and prosecuting human trafficking and slavery offences, that a prosecution is not dependent on reporting or accusation by a victim and that a prosecution can take place even if the victim has withdrawn their statement. Most of the organisations that discussed the clause with the Committee recognised the importance of sufficient training and resources for investigating and prosecuting human trafficking and slavery offences, and therefore welcomed this aspect of it, with views expressed that there was not much point in having legislation to tackle human trafficking if the investigators and prosecutors lacked the necessary tools and training to identify victims and prosecute perpetrators.

Further awareness training to recognise the signs and symptoms of trafficking and prostitution, including risks and triggers, was identified as particularly necessary. It was also felt that some amendments to the wording may be required to ensure that responsibility for all the training does not rest solely with the Department of Justice but that all Departments and agencies responsible for investigating or prosecuting human trafficking or slavery offences take appropriate measures.

In contrast, the police indicated that they developed and introduced training packages to educate and assist officers in detecting and investigating human trafficking offences and did not believe that there was a requirement for legislation in this area.

The Public Prosecution Service (PPS) also noted that the legislation placed a responsibility for public prosecutors to be trained and stated that this would require the appropriate Department to provide the PPS with legal training resources.

The Department indicated to the Committee that it recognised the intent behind clause 7 and the importance of providing appropriate training and resources for front line professionals in responding effectively to human trafficking and highlighted that a number of steps had already been taken across the criminal justice system and other front line professions to train and raise awareness of this issue. However, it did have concerns that the wording of the clause placed a statutory duty solely on the Department whereas responsibility for training and equipping investigators and prosecutors rested with a range of law enforcement agencies, some of which fall outside the Department's authority. The Department stated that it would prefer to omit clause 7(1) and amend clause 15 to include a requirement that the strategy under that clause must include matters relating to training, investigation and prosecution, which, in its view, would provide a more strategic response and allow training and resources to be considered under a more comprehensive multi-agency approach.

Lord Morrow subsequently advised the Committee that he had discussed the Department's concerns with officials and was content with the proposal to omit clause 7(1) and address matters relating to training, investigation and prosecution in clause 15. The Committee views the provision of adequate and appropriate training for all front line professionals to enable human trafficking to be tackled effectively as being very important and was therefore content to support the approach agreed by Lord Morrow and the Department of Justice in relation to clause 7(1).

In relation to clause 7, subsections (2) and (3), the PPS advised the Committee that it would apply the test for prosecution in all cases referred by the police regardless of whether the victim reported the offence, made a statement, or withdrew a statement, and highlighted that the PPS policy for prosecuting cases of human trafficking clarified this and the steps to be taken in such circumstances. The Committee agreed to support the provisions in clause 7, subsections (2) and (3), that set out that a prosecution is not dependent on reporting or accusation by a victim and can take place even if the victim has withdrawn their statement, in recognition of the difficulties for victims, some of whom do not even know what country they are in and speak little English, to come forward and give statements and evidence in court and noted that a technical amendment to omit unnecessary words in clause 7(2) was needed.

More recently, Lord Morrow and the Minister of Justice advised the Committee that to assist the structure of the Bill, they intend to remove clause 7 and replace it with new clause 5G, which is set out in amendment 27. As there are no substantive changes being made, the Committee is content with this approach.

Let me speak briefly on amendment 40, which is being brought by the Minister of Finance and Personnel and will introduce a new offence of forced marriage. During the Committee Stage of the Bill, Lord Morrow advised the Committee that he had received a request from the Minister to include this new offence in the Bill. He indicated that the offence was part of the Westminster Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Act 2014, which had recently received Royal Assent and created a new offence of forcing someone to marry against their will. The result of the introduction of the new offence in England and Wales is that Northern Ireland is out of step with the rest of the United Kingdom, and the gap needed to be addressed.

The Committee was supportive of the inclusion of the new provision in the Bill in principle and requested further information on the detail of the proposed new offence from the Department of Finance and Personnel. The Committee subsequently noted the further information on the new offence, which is before us today. It makes sense, therefore, to use this available legislative opportunity to bring about the necessary changes to provide for this new offence and appropriate penalties, and I am sure that the Assembly will support this new provision.

At this stage, those are all the comments I wish to make as Chairman of the Committee. I appreciate that it has taken a little bit of time; however, given that the Committee has a report of 1,200 pages, I will seek to do my best to get all the necessary points put into this particular debate.

Very briefly, as an individual MLA, I will say that obviously in this group the key clause 4 may well divide the House. I concur entirely with the arguments put forward by Lord Morrow in respect of the justification for taking this approach. The evidence has shown, and the Attorney General has recognised it, that it is appropriate for this Parliament to legislate in such a manner. It is not setting a precedent, as Lord Morrow highlighted; it has happened before. Indeed, what is striking in his opinion poll that was conducted during the summer was that a majority of people in Northern Ireland are looking to politicians to legislate for this minimum-sentence approach.

I know there will be some in this House who take the view that that should be entirely the responsibility of judges. However, that is not how the public see it. The public elect us to legislate on their behalf and, if we as politicians decide that there is an issue of significant magnitude that requires a minimum sentence to be put in, then, as the Attorney General said, it is entirely appropriate for politicians to exercise their mandate on behalf of the people in respect of this issue. Therefore, I will be supporting all the positions that Lord Morrow outlined to the House, and I commend them to the House.

Raymond McCartney (Sinn Féin, Foyle)

Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. First, I obviously welcome Consideration Stage. I am mindful that you have cautioned us that we should stick to the group of amendments. I just have some indulgences and some broad comments. I actually think I want to support the comments that the Chair of the Committee made in relation to the proposer of the Bill, Lord Morrow, and about the obvious amount of work that he has put into this. There is absolutely no doubt that he was very efficient in terms of the Committee and in furnishing people with information. I acknowledge that.

I suppose that even he would acknowledge that the Bill has been changed since its first framing and the first draft, both by what other people have brought to him and in relation to the Modern Slavery Bill, which he talked about. As the Chair said, the Committee report is over 1,000 pages. I also feel that it is worth acknowledging that, at Committee Stage, all of us who were part of that scrutiny heard very many powerful and insightful witnesses, and I have absolutely no doubt that they will go away from this particular exercise knowing that, when they come to scrutiny Committees in the Assembly, they are there to be properly consulted and properly listened to. Obviously, that should then inform whatever opinion we take in the future. Again, there is absolutely no doubt that, running alongside the Justice Committee report, the joint Oireachtas report had very strong viewpoints, and the views expressed in it were also certainly very informative for us on the Sinn Féin Benches.

I heard Lord Morrow on Radio Ulster this morning and I know from one of the briefing documents that he supplied to all Assembly Members and other people that he laid out three very clear aims. All of us are very supportive of the idea that, where there are vulnerable people being exploited, right across the many different aspects and circumstances of trafficking, slavery and exploitation, we as legislators must do something about it. I think that the Bill, in some way, expresses that.

I now turn to the clauses, a LeasCheann Comhairle. In his introduction, Lord Morrow laid out and described the number of changes in the clauses. When you see that, you can see how this is nearly, if not a rewrite of the Bill, certainly a putting of it into a different context and a presenting of it in a different way. He accepts that the Modern Slavery Bill, which is now being processed at Westminster, has put him in a position, along with the Minister, to make a number of changes, which I think helps strengthen the Bill, and also makes it, if you like, easier to read. That is to be welcomed. I heard the Minister commenting that there are not too many occasions where people will say that he and Lord Morrow agree, but they have found common cause here today, and I suppose that is to be welcomed as well.

The Chair very ably and aptly went through the clauses and the amendments, practically one by one. I think he gave a very fair reflection of how the Committee approached it and the position that the Committee took on all the proposed changes in this group. In brief outline, we welcome, particularly in clauses 1A, 1C and 1D, this idea of a new offence of slavery to include servitude and forced or compulsory labour. I think the Committee at one stage, if it did not have a concern, certainly pointed out that it believed that forced and compulsory labour is a part of this exploitation that perhaps needed to be addressed. When people talk about forced or compulsory labour, it does not always necessarily mean that it is by physical force. It can be psychological or just circumstance. So, we welcome that provision as well.

There is a very clear definition in the Bill, and that is to be welcomed, around what constitutes exploitation in relation to human trafficking, and, in terms of clause 1D, we welcome the fact that there are what Lord Morrow outlined as preparatory offences. He talked about the technical amendments in clause 2A, and, again, we would welcome that streamlining or bringing the sentencing processes under the dangerous offenders Act of 2008. That sends a very clear signal as to the Bill's intention to see human trafficking and exploitation as a serious offence that should be taken seriously by the courts.

I suppose that leads me to clause 4. At the Committee, that was maybe the issue, apart from clause 6, which we will talk about later on, that perhaps had the most conversation. We believe in principle that the idea of minimum sentences is not an appropriate one. We believe that it should be at the discretion of the judge in that judicial process. We listened very carefully, and I think that it has been laid out very clearly today that the offences that are being committed are serious, should be seen by the courts as serious and the appropriate sentence should be given for the appropriate offence. That is why we find it difficult to move away from the principle of not having a minimum sentence.

People might make a strong argument that this is a serious offence and an offence that most people are totally abhorred by, but I do not think that the circumstance should prevail where there is a minimum sentence for this that does not apply to other serious crimes. We are mindful of the MORI poll, and I am not saying that the question was loaded, but it was certainly framed in a particular way. Perhaps the question that should be asked is whether people agree with the principle that sentencing should be at the discretion of the court. You might get a better view from that. In this instance, I accept what the poll said, but we feel that, in principle, it should be left to the judge.

In the amendments that Lord Morrow has tabled, he accepts that there are circumstances that, I think, are described in the amendments as "exceptional". I think that the MORI poll said "very exceptional", but the amendment just says "exceptional". Although we believe that that is some attempt to except it, there are circumstances in other legislation that has come through the House where people have pointed out that, if you had a minimum sentence, there may be something unforeseen or a particular circumstance that is not catered for by the way that the legislation is framed. The word "exceptional" could be a minefield for different people in the process, be it the defence or the prosecution, to say, "We do not believe this is exceptional" or, "We do believe this is exceptional". We think that the principle of judicial discretion is the best way to take it forward. So, we will support the Department in relation to clause 4 not standing part of the Bill, but, if that fails, we will be supportive of the idea of the exceptional circumstances. I say that to put it on the record.

I will briefly touch on a number of other amendments. We support amendment No 40, which has been tabled by the Minister of Finance and Personnel. There is absolutely no doubt that the idea of forced marriage, as laid out in the amendment, is a form of exploitation. That needs to be addressed, and I think that this is the appropriate vehicle to do it. As the Chair touched on in the latter part of his contribution, we certainly support training with the proper resources and the servicing of that training, so that you have a very good approach in the investigation and in the prosecutorial processes in relation to this. It is good that it is being put into the Bill so that it becomes a requirement rather than people just feeling that it is something that they should do. If we are to make laws and want them to have a particular effect, there is no point in framing a law when those who are charged with enforcing it do not have the resources, do not see it as a priority or do not put in the proper training. That in itself creates a gap, which means that the law is very good and appropriate on paper but, in a contradictory way, is ineffectual.

We support the inclusion of the amendment whereby a prosecution should not rely on a victim's statement, and nor should that be a reason for a prosecution not proceeding. Many people who are involved in human trafficking and find themselves here as part of that experience are from different countries, different cultures and speak different languages, and the Bill caters for that adequately and appropriately.

In summary, we support most of the amendments in the first group. We have reservations with the concept or principle of a minimum sentence and who should have the ability to do that. Is it the legislator or the sentencing provision through to the judicial process? At present, we favour the judicial process.

Alban Maginness (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast North)

I thank Lord Morrow for introducing the Bill and for his hard work in realising it. It is faithful to the European directive on human trafficking, and it is important that we apply this into our domestic law. Lord Morrow has done a wonderful job. The work with the departmental officials has been outstanding. There has been a very good partnership between the Department and Lord Morrow. Some issues still divide Lord Morrow and the Department, but the bulk of the Bill is as perfected as it could be in the circumstances, and the original deficiencies have now been remedied by the amendments that have been tabled by Lord Morrow and the Justice Minister. That represents a good deal of good political work, and I believe that the Justice Committee fully supports that, and the Chairperson was sympathetic to that point of view. The Justice Committee has also done a tremendous amount of work on the Bill, and it is a great credit to the Chair, the Deputy Chair and Committee members.

When I was Chair of the Committee for Enterprise, Trade and Investment, I used to say that it was the best Committee in the House. I suppose that it still remains the best Committee in the House. I could not venture to say otherwise in front of the current Chair of the Committee. However, I think that the Justice Committee is probably almost the best Committee in the House. We did good work, which overcame party division. It is important to remember that in the House today.

I will not delay too long, because there is an awful lot of work to be done in relation to the Bill. The SDLP is very supportive of the amendments that have been tabled by Lord Morrow in the first group. As far as the definition of human trafficking and slavery offences is concerned, sensible amendments have been tabled, which to some extent reflect the Modern Slavery Bill, and it is important to have consistency on those matters.

I think that consent being irrelevant for the victim of human trafficking or slavery offences is very important. This is a heinous offence. Witnesses and victims can be intimidated, perhaps not directly but by force of circumstances: for example, the threat of deportation. It is important that consent is not necessary. Also, in clause 3, aggravating factors is a very sensible —

Basil McCrea (NI21, Lagan Valley)

Will the Member give way?

Alban Maginness (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast North)

Yes, I will indeed.

Basil McCrea (NI21, Lagan Valley)

I am struck by that argument, and I am interested in the Member's opinion on it. A number of cases of human trafficking have been brought to the courts recently, and one concerned a person who voluntarily arranged transportation. In other words, people were consensually working together. There was a guilty verdict at the conclusion of that case, but I am worried about the Member's thoughts on consent when two people willingly do something together. Are we sure that we do not need a little more oversight of what the law has to say about the matter?

Alban Maginness (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast North)

My point is that, if you have a situation in which proving the offence is entirely dependent on the consent of the victim, in those circumstances, that would be entirely wrong. I think that that is important. Here are people, perhaps the most vulnerable in the world, being subjected to this horrendous situation. Surely it is too much to expect that there would be consent in those circumstances.

There is no doubt that we make exceptions in the Bill, but the abhorrence of what is happening throughout the world and affecting our situation here in this region is such that we have to take an exceptional view in the legislation. I make no apology for that, and I think that we have to protect the most vulnerable people in the world.

Sammy Wilson (DUP, East Antrim)

Will the Member give way?

Alban Maginness (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast North)

Yes, indeed, Mr Wilson.

Sammy Wilson (DUP, East Antrim)

Does the Member also accept that, given the nature of some of the gangs who operate in human trafficking and the fact that they may have a hold not just on the victims but sometimes on the victims' families back home, the issue of consent is much more blurred than the Member suggested in his earlier intervention?

Alban Maginness (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast North)

I agree entirely with what the Member has said, and I think that the House should take that into consideration.

Basil McCrea (NI21, Lagan Valley)

Will the Member give way?

Alban Maginness (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast North)

Yes, of course, Mr McCrea.

Basil McCrea (NI21, Lagan Valley)

I totally accept the Member's point and the point that Mr Wilson has just raised about the nature of oppression, but there is an issue of principle here that interests me. If you were able to say that there was no coercion, hidden or otherwise, and that it is an act between two individuals in full consent — the case that I spoke about was dealt with by law — whereby one person willingly makes travel arrangements for another person, who willingly consents to some form of activity that we would not approve of, the fact is that they agreed to do something. I wonder about the general principle of where the state or the legislature interferes in consensual relationships between people.

Alban Maginness (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast North)

With respect to the Member, I think that he might be confusing the issue a little. I do not think that the circumstances that he outlined, in which there is a purely voluntary arrangement, could be characterised as human trafficking.

Paul Givan (DUP, Lagan Valley)

I thank the Member for giving way. Unfortunately, I think that the other Member for Lagan Valley has taken a predetermined position on this debate. He clearly does not understand the amendments that are being debated and that we will subsequently vote on. This is about consent or otherwise in a statement being used for a prosecution. It is nothing to do with the circumstances that he referred to. It would be helpful of the Member read what we are dealing with and made a contribution that was relevant.

Basil McCrea (NI21, Lagan Valley)

On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. I find it difficult to engage in debate with the Member through another Member. You might give some direction as to how one might deal with such a situation.

John Dallat (Social Democratic and Labour Party, East Londonderry)

That is not a point of order. However, if there is any value in your statement, I will certainly take it on board.

Alban Maginness (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast North)

Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. I will try to complete my remarks before Question Time.

I believe that the list of aggravating factors for the court to consider for the purposes of sentencing is comprehensive. It may well be that, in the circumstances, the court would have taken most of those into consideration anyway, but there is no harm in putting into statute the factors that the court should take into consideration.

I move on to clause 4, which is probably the most contentious clause dealt with by this group of amendments. My colleagues and I in the SDLP take the view that judicial discretion is very important, should be respected and that, in most ordinary circumstances, should be absolute. However, there are certain circumstances in which there are minimum sentences. Lord Morrow referred to those and gave examples such as firearms offences, excess alcohol, automatic disqualifications and those sorts of things. In this instance, we are talking about two years and a provision that should send out a very strong message to those who involve themselves in human trafficking that the courts will take a very severe view of it and that there would be a minimum sentence for the courts to apply.

If that was the absolute position, our party would object to it. However, it is not an absolute position because Lord Morrow has brought an element of judicial discretion into the Bill in so far as there are exceptional circumstances. I believe that that is a fair balance and that it provides the necessary judicial discretion. Such is the nature of this crime that we have to send out a very strong message nationally and internationally. That is important, and that is why it is included in the Bill and why we are supportive of it.

For those who seek reassurance on that point, the matter was discussed very thoroughly in the Committee. I refer to paragraph 75 of the Committee's report on the Human Trafficking and Exploitation (Further Provisions and Support for Victims) Bill. It states that the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission:

"highlighted that the figure of two years proposed as the minimum sentence was not arbitrary but reflected a subtle increase on current sentencing practice. It advised that the existence of the exception under legislation should remain within the Bill to ensure that the sanctions imposed under Clause 4 are considered proportionate for all THB offences"

— that is human trafficking offences. Paragraph 75 continues:

"including those offences defined as trafficking domestically but which fall outside of the international standard."

Paragraph 76 of the same report states that in its oral evidence, the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission:

"confirmed its view that Clause 4 allows for judicial discretion because exceptional circumstances are written into the Clause."

I concur with the view expressed by the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission. This is exceptional. We accept that it is exceptional and that it is not the ordinary run-of-the-mill. If it were, we would object to it. There are some limitations, but a degree of judicial discretion is permitted, and we believe that that should satisfy the concerns about clause 4.

I will end fairly quickly, Mr Deputy Speaker. Other aspects — assets recovery, reparation orders on the perpetrator and compensation for the victim coming from moneys from or properties owned by the perpetrator — all those things in the Bill are good and important, and it is important that we support them as well.

We support amendment No 40, on forced marriage, tabled by the Minister of Finance and Personnel. It is reflective of legislation at Westminster, and it is important to include it in our domestic legislation and in this Bill.

I do not think that there are any further points that I can make on the first group of amendments, so I will conclude there.

Tom Elliott (UUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

That is fine, Mr Deputy Speaker. I do not mind at all if you interrupt me. You are quite welcome to do that. However I hope that you will, as you did other Members, give me a wee bit of leeway to discuss the overall Bill at the start.

I congratulate Lord Morrow on getting progress on the Bill thus far. It has been an interesting project so far, and I am sure that it has been time-consuming for him. It has created a huge amount of discussion, let alone debate. In various areas out in the community and in the Justice Committee, and, I am sure, in the Department of Justice as well, there have been many soul-searching discussions around the rights, wrongs and merits of some aspects of the Bill.

On many occasions, I have been asked whether I support the Bill, and I have always maintained that I support its principle and ethos, as I am sure that most people do. However, as other Members have said, the Bill has undergone some major surgery in the past number of months, and it is interesting that we have a list of amendments that is over five times the length of the Bill as introduced. Anyway, it is good that Lord Morrow, the Department of Justice and the Minister have been working well together, and, hopefully, they will bring about a better conclusion.

Sammy Wilson (DUP, East Antrim)

I may have picked up the Member wrongly, given the tone of the remarks that he made about the amendments. Does he not accept that all Bills go through extensive amendments and that, rather than that being a fault of the Bill or its original intention, it reflects well on the seriousness with which the issue has been dealt with by Lord Morrow and those who scrutinised the legislation at Committee Stage?

Tom Elliott (UUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

I thank the Member for that. I said that I welcome the working-together of Lord Morrow, the Minister and the Department of Justice in bringing forward what may be better proposals. I totally accept that point.

On the matter of the first group of amendments, I acknowledge that a large number of them have been worked out between Lord Morrow and the Department of Justice, and, by and large, the Ulster Unionist Party supports them. Some of the more controversial aspects, as we have heard, are around clause 4 and the principle of setting minimum sentences. However, I acknowledge that Lord Morrow has carried this out in the right way, in that he has allowed for some judicial discretion. I support the issue of minimum sentencing, but I also support judicial discretion being applied in exceptional circumstances.

If Members have any doubt about supporting clause 4, they should look at a recent case in Craigavon Magistrates' Court, where a gangmaster was sentenced to payment of £500. That was someone who had committed crimes against a number of Romanian workers, who had to pick apples and scavenge in bins, for which they were given poverty wages. He charged them to live in an unheated shed. He was fined just £500. He actually charged them for living in that shed, which was unfit for human habitation.

I am pleased that the Gangmasters Licensing Authority said that it was shocked and appalled by the leniency of that punishment. It has indicated that it will appeal the sentence, and I hope it will. So, if anybody has any doubt about the potential of minimum sentencing, they should reflect on that case.

Under amendment Nos 17 and 18, where the minimum sentence is not imposed, the court is required to explain why and record the exceptional circumstances that apply. I envisage some interesting outworkings of that and look forward to seeing some of the explanations as to why courts do not impose the minimum sentences. I intervened when the Lord Morrow was speaking earlier to ask whether he had seen any guidelines that could potentially be utilised in those two amendments. That will be a judicial issue; it will be up to the judges and the courts to decide. However, I can see some interesting outcomes of it.

By and large, we support the amendments in this group. Hopefully, people will reflect on their opposition to clause 4 in light of the non-custodial sentence that was handed down in the case I mentioned.

The debate stood suspended.

(Mr Principal Deputy Speaker [Mr Mitchel McLaughlin] in the Chair)

Oral Answers to Questions

Ross Hussey (UUP, West Tyrone)

1. asked the First Minister and deputy First Minister what discussions they have had with the Ministry of Defence on the possible transfer of St Lucia Barracks in Omagh. (AQO 6850/11-15)

Peter Robinson (DUP, Belfast East)

We are aware that the Ministry of Defence (MoD) is working on resolving an outstanding legal impediment relating to the ownership of the historic barracks that form part of the St Lucia site. OFMDFM officials met Ministry of Defence officials in November 2013. However, the MoD has not responded to subsequent follow-up correspondence.

We fully recognise the significance of the historic buildings for the town of Omagh and the potential that they may have to contribute to the development of the area. However, in the current financial climate, we need to ensure that any future use of the St Lucia site and the listed buildings is affordable and sustainable. With that in mind, OFMDFM officials continue to discuss the potential uses of the site with officials from organisations with an interest, including the Department for Social Development and Omagh District Council.

Ross Hussey (UUP, West Tyrone)

Would the First Minister confirm whether the Office of the First Minister and deputy First Minister would support local groups that, during the decade of centenaries, would like to use the barracks' square as part of that commemoration?

Peter Robinson (DUP, Belfast East)

I would of course. The Department has not considered the matter, but, subject to the legal issues between the MoD and the past owner being resolved, I see no reason why it should not be used for that purpose. There is, I understand, a memorial within the site, and I am sure that access to that would be much appreciated by people locally.

Tom Buchanan (DUP, West Tyrone)

Given that the council is keen to have something happen on the site but funds are limited, what are the options?

Peter Robinson (DUP, Belfast East)

The first requirement is for the MoD to resolve the legal issues as to whether the previous owner wants to take the site back into ownership or whether it is free for the MoD to transfer. If they offer it on transfer, clearly Omagh District Council would be one of the key partners that would have an interest in the issue. There may even be an interest in part of the site from the private sector or in partnership with DSD and Omagh District Council. Those are the possibilities, but we have to get over the first impediment. Some Members think that OFMDFM is slow at getting replies out. Well, meet the MoD. We are still waiting for our reply from last November.

Ian Milne (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

Go raibh maith agat, a Phríomh-LeasCheann Comhairle. What is the current position on the Shackleton Barracks site at Ballykelly?

Peter Robinson (DUP, Belfast East)

The deputy First Minister and I rescued it from a use that would not have maximised its funding centrally to the Assembly and Executive or the level of jobs that could be brought into the area. We have put it out for expressions of interest, and we received over 40, principally from the private sector, although there are some partnerships and public sector interests.

I have seen expressions of interest that indicate that 1,000 or 2,000 jobs could be created in the area. Indeed, there would be a significant income for the Executive. However, we decided that it is best that we look at dividing the site into lots because there is an interest in the site from, for instance, the Department of Agriculture and DRD. There are also different private sector interests that do not conflict with each other. In the next few days, the deputy First Minister and I will look at actioning that proposal, which is to put it out for public interest and see what bids come in.

Paul Givan (DUP, Lagan Valley)

2. asked the First Minister and deputy First Minister for an update on the delivery of projects through the social investment fund. (AQO 6851/11-15)

Trevor Lunn (Alliance, Lagan Valley)

4. asked the First Minister and deputy First Minister for an update on the allocation of the social investment fund to date. (AQO 6853/11-15)

Peter Robinson (DUP, Belfast East)

Mr Principal Deputy Speaker, with your permission, I will ask junior Minister Jonathan Bell to answer this question.

Jonathan Bell (DUP, Strangford)

With your permission, Mr Principal Deputy Speaker, I will answers questions 2 and 4 together.

Funding has been committed to 23 projects, with the latest costs — following cost-validation exercises since letters of offer were issued — totalling £34·4 million. We are working with the projects' lead partners on preconditions associated with their social investment fund (SIF) funding. Once these have been met, we will be able to authorise delivery start dates.

One project has started in the northern zone: the Causeway rural and urban network capital project is for the development of a charity hub. Two others — one in the Londonderry zone and the other in Belfast east zone — are close to getting approval to proceed. The Londonderry community work programme is a revenue project designed to provide long-term placements for the long-term unemployed, specifically those on the margins, such as the under-25s, while the Belfast east Bryson Street capital project will create a purpose-built community doctors' surgery on a brownfield site. The surgery will provide state-of-the-art facilities for the local community in an area of high deprivation. It is anticipated that both projects will get off the ground in the near future.

We are exploring options in relation to the remaining zonal allocations, taking account of the levels of investment across the zones, community planning and the current financial position.

Paul Givan (DUP, Lagan Valley)

I welcome that answer from the junior Minister, particularly when you consider that the quantum of moneys being talked about is £34·4 million. The Minister will be aware of the Resurgam Trust in my constituency. It is a grass-roots, community-led organisation that is professionally delivering, alongside other communities, in places such as Old Warren, the Low Road, Hillhall, Ballymacash and the Maze. It is making a really big difference in those communities. He will be aware of the successful application for one of the projects to do with SIF. Can he provide the House with an update of progress in taking forward the projects in my constituency?

Jonathan Bell (DUP, Strangford)

I am happy to do that, and I pay tribute to the trust for the work that it is doing with people who are most in need.

There are five projects in the south eastern zone. They include Laganview, which is aiming to create the healthy living centre in the Old Warren estate in Lisburn. A project aims to develop the family centre in Twinbrook, and SIF is part-funding this, alongside the Department for Social Development. The early years work aims to reduce the risk factors linked to educational underachievement and focuses on the transition stages at preschool, primary and post-primary levels, and that will be implemented right across the south eastern zone. In west Lisburn, there is an aim to redevelop the existing community centre — again, in the Old Warren estate — as a dedicated youth facility. Then there is the Cloona House project, which aims to redevelop the building as a headquarters for the Colin Neighbourhood Partnership, to allow the delivery of an extensive range of community services.

All the above projects, with the exception of Twinbrook, have a signed and returned letter of offer in place, and officials are working with the lead partners to meet the conditions. Twinbrook is being managed by DSD, and funding will be committed through that Department.

Trevor Lunn (Alliance, Lagan Valley)

I thank the junior Minister for his answers to Mr Givan; obviously, we share an interest in that constituency. Can the junior Minister give us any sort of guarantee that this fund will be fully utilised in this financial year and that there will not be any underspend that may go to waste?

Jonathan Bell (DUP, Strangford)

It is an important question. Funding has been allocated to 23 projects to date, with the most up-to-date costs totalling, as I outlined, £34·4 million. Spend to date has been focusing on the work that is necessary to take forward the individual projects. We have looked at all the projects as they stand and at the total budget, and I am confident that a number of projects are about to receive their letter of offer. A further 22 projects will be examined. I am very keen that those projects are fully examined and come to fruition. I am confident, as far as I can be, that that fund will be fully utilised. If any project does not make it, there are other projects in the pipeline that will then be considered. Given what it was set up to do — to tackle deprivation and dereliction — I am fully confident that we can spend all the money.

Jimmy Spratt (DUP, Belfast South)

I welcome the fact that a number of letters of offer have gone out in my constituency. Will the junior Minister assure the House that the £80 million will be protected to ensure that all the letters of offer will come to fruition?

Jonathan Bell (DUP, Strangford)

The money has been set aside and is targeted at where it is most needed. As I said, I am confident that that money will be fully utilised to tackle issues that have been raised in different zones.

Alex Attwood (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast West)

At the end of your answer to the original question, you referred to current financial issues. Given that £34·4 million has been committed, are you hinting that OFMDFM will not be able to commit the balance or part of the balance of the moneys up to £80 million?

Jonathan Bell (DUP, Strangford)

No, is the short answer. The £80 million has been protected and is set to deliver on the projects. There is no hint whatsoever of that. As I said, the money has been allocated with the letters of offer. A number of projects are awaiting their letter of offer, and those are fairly imminent. Some £27 million remains. Twenty-two projects are being analysed in relation to that, which would take us to the full amount. If any of those projects were to drop off, there are other projects in the pipeline.

Tom Elliott (UUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

I thank the junior Minister for his answers so far. He mentioned a number of the zones, including the northern zone, the south-eastern zone and the Londonderry zone. Will he update me on the western zone, particularly the allocations that have gone out so far and the projects that are close to commencement?

Jonathan Bell (DUP, Strangford)

I am delighted that the old saying is true: all politics is local. In the western zone, we have Work Ready West, which is a revenue project that has been allocated £2·2 million There is SATCHEL, which is a Sure Start revenue project that has been allocated £1·3 million. There is also Fermanagh House, which is a capital project that has been allocated £0·9 million.

Sammy Wilson (DUP, East Antrim)

3. asked the First Minister and deputy First Minister, in light of the outcome of the Scottish independence referendum, what discussions they have had with the UK Government on the devolution of corporation tax to Northern Ireland. (AQO 6852/11-15)

Peter Robinson (DUP, Belfast East)

Securing the power to lower corporation tax is a key priority for the Executive to promote the growth of the local economy. As part of our economic pact that we signed last year, the United Kingdom Government indicated the intention to make a decision on the devolution of corporation tax powers no later than the coming autumn statement, which will be on 3 December. Since the Scottish referendum last month, we have made clear our expectations regarding further fiscal devolution for Northern Ireland. That has involved discussions with the Secretary of State, and we have also written to the Prime Minister to press him to come to a decision quickly to ensure the swift devolution of corporation tax powers to Northern Ireland.

Sammy Wilson (DUP, East Antrim)

Given the refusal of Sinn Féin and the SDLP in particular, and, to a lesser extent, the Ulster Unionist Party, to face up to the Assembly's budgetary pressures, does the First Minister have any fear that we may find ourselves in a situation in which corporation tax powers are devolved, but we are unable to deliver on a reduction of the rate because of the financial shambles imposed on the Executive by the refusal of those parties to engage in serious debate on the Budget?

Peter Robinson (DUP, Belfast East)

I say to my friend that my fear is not so much that the powers are devolved and we have difficulty implementing them thereafter; my fear is that Treasury might say that it expects a certain level of fiscal management responsibility and that it will therefore hold back from devolving those powers. I am sure — I say this in order to satisfy the concerns of Treasury — that the real difference between welfare reform and corporation tax is that there is unanimity around the Executive table on corporation tax. I am convinced that, if given the power, we will be able to deal with that in a unanimous manner around the Executive table.

I point out that we will obviously require legislation to go through Westminster, probably in much the same way as a money Bill would go through the House of Commons and the Lords. Even after that, there are considerable processes, particularly the procurement of the necessary IT equipment, which would probably mean that it would be, at the earliest, the end of 2016 or early 2017 before it could be implemented on the ground.

Mike Nesbitt (UUP, Strangford)

Notwithstanding the long wait, does the First Minister believe that, should the power be devolved, we are ready in terms of A-grade office accommodation, skill sets in the workforce and what some economists might consider other structural flaws in our set-up?

George Robinson (DUP, East Londonderry)

It would be unfair to suggest that DETI and Invest have been anything other than the jewel in the crown of the Northern Ireland Executive and Assembly, and, indeed, of Northern Ireland itself. They have been out there hammering away at bringing in jobs and have done so successfully. They have beaten every target that we set for them. They have brought in more jobs over this period than at any time in the history of Northern Ireland and more foreign direct investment per head of population than anywhere else in the United Kingdom, including London. So, they have done a first-class job. Do I have some concerns that there are areas of infrastructure that we need to do more about? Yes, I have, particularly office space, which he mentioned. We have been so successful that we have started to soak up all of the available office space. The planners and developers need to up their game to ensure that we can continue with the level of growth that we have been successful in bringing to Northern Ireland thus far.

Sean Lynch (Sinn Féin, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

Go raibh maith agat, a Phríomh-LeasCheann Comhairle. What discussions has OFMDFM had with the Scottish Executive, and what tax-varying powers are being considered for the North of Ireland?

George Robinson (DUP, East Londonderry)

The deputy First Minister and I had breakfast this morning with the First Minister of Scotland, Alex Salmond. Both of us had a previous conversation with him as part of our business trip to Gleneagles, when we discussed with him elements of devolution; spoke to a major company that was looking to bring hundreds of jobs into Northern Ireland; and had discussions with the European Tour about the two visits of the Irish Open to Northern Ireland. Tomorrow, we leave here for a meeting on Wednesday with Carwyn Jones, the First Minister of Wales, on the same subject.

There is probably recognition that the same type of devolution will not be suitable for all three jurisdictions. Therefore, we need to be satisfied of what is best for us, just as Scotland and Wales will do for themselves. The hope and expectation is that there will be some commonality of approach in ensuring that we have the very best form of devolution for each of the three jurisdictions as we move forward.

In terms of what tax-raising powers we are looking at, we are looking at them all. What we come down on and which taxes are appropriate to be devolved will, ultimately, be a matter for the Executive.

Colum Eastwood (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

I note what the First Minister said about corporation tax. What are the Executive doing to address the very clear regional imbalances in economic development and job creation?

Peter Robinson (DUP, Belfast East)

I am glad to say that we have, through Invest Northern Ireland, been encouraging investment in every part of Northern Ireland. I think that the Member recognises that it is much easier in the greater Belfast area. I know that some people are very seriously considering job potential in the north-west. I hope that we can have announcements on that in the future.

There is no part of Northern Ireland, including the north-west, that anybody on the Executive — certainly not the deputy First Minister and I — would do anything other than encourage people to move to. I want to see everybody in Northern Ireland gainfully employed. I am glad to see that for 21 consecutive months, the claimant count has been going down in Northern Ireland. I am glad to see that we are back down to 6·1% unemployment and that it is hopefully still moving further down. All of that is a good sign. I want people to be employed as much in the north-west as in any other part of Northern Ireland.

John McCallister (UUP, South Down)

From his discussions with the Scottish First Minister, Alex Salmond, the First Minister will know whether Scotland are pursuing corporation tax. Is he aware that no work has been done by either DETI or DFP on the impact that Scotland's getting corporation tax would have on Northern Ireland's receiving it or indeed the level at which it should be set? Is that a matter of concern to him?

Peter Robinson (DUP, Belfast East)

No. What would have been a matter of concern is that if DETI and its various advisers had not done a lot of work to see what benefit there would be to Northern Ireland if corporation tax powers were to be devolved. They have, and the economic advisers indicate that our benefit could be around 58,000 jobs. That is a significant benefit to Northern Ireland.

I am not convinced that Scotland can make the same strong case as Northern Ireland to have the devolution of corporation tax. In Northern Ireland, we have a devolved government that is coming out of a long period of conflict and division, which makes us a special case. We have a land frontier with another nation that has a very low level of corporation tax compared with that of the UK. That is a disadvantage and a uniqueness in our case. I think that, for many reasons, Northern Ireland stands apart as having a strong case for the devolution of corporation tax. I have no doubt that the First Minister of Scotland and his successor will push to have the devolution of corporation tax, but I think that we have a far better chance of getting it than they do.

Declan McAleer (Sinn Féin, West Tyrone)

5. asked the First Minister and deputy First Minister for an update on the shared campuses, particularly Lisanelly, as part of Together: Building a United Community. (AQO 6854/11-15)

Peter Robinson (DUP, Belfast East)

The Together: Building a United Community strategy, published on 23 May 2013, reflects the Executive's commitment to improving community relations and continuing the journey towards a more united and shared society.

Work is progressing across all seven headline actions that were announced alongside the publication of the strategy. One of the headline actions is the creation of 10 shared education campuses. The programme was launched by the Department of Education in January 2014, and it received 16 applications under the first call for expressions of interest. In July 2014, the first three projects to be supported were announced. They are shared STEM and sixth-form facilities, incorporating St Mary's High School, Limavady and Limavady High School; a shared education campus, incorporating Moy Regional Controlled Primary School and St John's Primary School, Moy; and a shared education campus, incorporating Ballycastle High School and Cross and Passion College, Ballycastle. Those projects are now proceeding to full business case.

A second call for expressions of interest opened on 1 October 2014, with submissions due by 30 January 2015. An announcement of the second tranche of shared education campuses is expected to be made in June 2015. In addition to the Together: Building a United Community commitment of 10 shared campuses, the Lisanelly shared education campus programme is also being progressed. The first phase of construction, which is at Arvalee School and Resource Centre, is expected to begin early next year. Work is continuing to prepare the site, and excellent progress is also being made in developing the overall exemplar of campus design.

Declan McAleer (Sinn Féin, West Tyrone)

Go raibh maith agat, a Phríomh-LeasCheann Comhairle. What progress has been made on the provision of 100 summer camps? Will those be available for young people outside Belfast?

Peter Robinson (DUP, Belfast East)

I thank the Member for his question. Progress is being made on all the areas that were recognised in the seven actions that are being taken forward. We have committed to creating 100 such school or summer camps in 2015. Work is under way to ensure that we meet that commitment. Intervention activities took place in the summer of 2014, and those will continue at Halloween this year. Following an evaluation of the programmes and other related activities, a full and final programme will be developed and rolled out in all council areas from summer 2015. The programme will build on the many existing examples of good practice that are operating in the community across the country.

Joe Byrne (Social Democratic and Labour Party, West Tyrone)

I thank the First Minister for his answers on Lisanelly. Will he state whether all the capital moneys can be put in place in a sequenced order to make sure that the schools that want to go there can avail themselves of the opportunity as soon as possible?

Peter Robinson (DUP, Belfast East)

We almost had the embarrassing situation of having money offered to us without us having the ability to spend it on Lisanelly, simply because of the timing of the programme. We have been successful in getting money — as part of the economic pact, along with our own funds — to move on with the Arvalee site proposal. Work is still being done at design stage for the other schools that are going on to the site. Ultimately, it will be a matter for the Minister to make bids for the capital budget. I will say that our capital budget is not in as difficult a place as our revenue budget is for the future, so hopefully a programme can be worked out. I have no doubt that the Minister of Education will argue his case strongly for funding for that purpose.

Michelle McIlveen (DUP, Strangford)

Further to those answers, what options are available for schools where physical collocation is not possible?

Peter Robinson (DUP, Belfast East)

The deputy First Minister and I are passionately supportive of the shared education proposals. They are a recognition that we have to deal with the situation as it is at present. While he and I might have wanted an overall and immediate integration of education across Northern Ireland, we have to work within the parameters of our present circumstances. That, quite frankly, means that, while we are rolling out the shared education campuses, many schools simply would not have a partner in their area to avail themselves of the benefits of a shared campus. In those circumstances, we are rolling out proposals that look at having shared classes and shared extracurricular activity, be it sport or other elements. On some occasions, there are possibilities for us to go well beyond that.

The deputy First Minister and I recently announced that we have £25 million for a scheme as a result of a very generous offer from Atlantic Philanthropies. That will allow us to make progress on those kinds of schemes. Where departmental funds might have been difficult on the revenue side over the next three or four years, Atlantic Philanthropies' kind giving will allow us to make progress in precisely those areas — revenue — as opposed to in capital areas.

Mitchel McLaughlin (Sinn Féin, South Antrim)

We possibly have time for a question but no supplementary questions.

Sammy Douglas (DUP, Belfast East)

6. asked the First Minister and deputy First Minister for an update on the establishment of an Executive office in Beijing. (AQO 6855/11-15)

Peter Robinson (DUP, Belfast East)

We are pleased to confirm that we have made significant progress in our relationship with the People's Republic of China and on opening an Executive office in Beijing. The director of the Northern Ireland Bureau started work in Beijing on 1 September. He has been assigned, on an interim basis, the primary objective of setting up the office, establishing contact with key Departments and stakeholder organisations, and exploring opportunities for mutually beneficial partnerships with regions across China.

Logistical arrangements are being finalised with the Chinese Government for the location of the office itself. The many administrative and protocol issues that are inevitably associated with such a project are being addressed. A number of encouraging initial meetings with government officials, businesses and agricultural organisations and local government bodies have also taken place.

The Executive's decision to open an office in China has been very well received within the Chinese Government and by the business sector. The deputy First Minister and I hope to further consolidate this growing relationship with the Chinese Government when we visit China in the near future to officially launch the Northern Ireland bureau and its services.

Mitchel McLaughlin (Sinn Féin, South Antrim)

That ends the period for listed questions. We now move onto 15 minutes of topical questions.

William Irwin (DUP, Newry and Armagh)

T1. asked the First Minister and deputy First Minister for an update on the talks that are taking place. (AQT 1621/11-15)

Peter Robinson (DUP, Belfast East)

As Members are aware — at least, they should be — the talks process has begun. The Secretary of State has had initial meetings with the parties. I, personally, hope that she will widen it out beyond the Executive parties. If we are dealing with matters of Assembly and Executive budgets, welfare reform and the structures of the Assembly, parties other than the Executive parties have just as much a right to have their say. They may not get their way, just as some of us will not be able to get all that we want, but they should be heard at the very least.

During my party's meeting with the Secretary of State, we tabled a proposal on welfare reform. I look forward to the opportunity to talk to the other political parties about what we propose in that process. It is essential that we resolve this issue. I do not think that now is a time for us to be scoring party political points on it. A serious engagement now needs to take place. I want to make it very clear from my party's point of view that we genuinely want to get a satisfactory outcome to all the outstanding issues during the talks.

William Irwin (DUP, Newry and Armagh)

I thank the First Minister for his reply. Could the First Minister give an update on the date for reaching a conclusion to the talks?

Peter Robinson (DUP, Belfast East)

I know that the Secretary of State has optimistically suggested that we can deal with all of the issues by the end of November; would that it could be so. By the end of November, we will want, at the very least, to have made very considerable progress on the financial issues involved. We have looming Budget deadlines, and therefore we need to reach some conclusions as a result of the discussions. Apart from the discussions that we will have within the Executive and between Executive parties, there is a need for us to resolve with Her Majesty's Government some budgetary matters, not least the fact that our Budget in Northern Ireland has been virtually static since 2009 while pressures have been growing and costs have been increasing.

Raymond McCartney (Sinn Féin, Foyle)

T3. asked the First Minister and deputy First Minister for additional information on the First Minister’s answer to a question from Colum Eastwood, when he said that he had some hope or expectation of job announcements in the north-west, particularly Derry. (AQT 1623/11-15)

Peter Robinson (DUP, Belfast East)

I think that you should be declaring an interest as well, Mr Principal Deputy Speaker. The answer is that, yes, I could but, no, I will not. However, if the Member has a quiet word with the deputy First Minister, I think that he will indicate to him that we have had conversations that indicate that there is a very real interest that would be pretty substantial for the north-west. However, as with all of these issues and as the deputy First Minister knows as a fisherman, you have to wait until the fish is landed and in your hands on the bank before you say too much about it.

Mitchel McLaughlin (Sinn Féin, South Antrim)

And make sure that you have a licence. [Laughter.]

Raymond McCartney (Sinn Féin, Foyle)

Go raibh maith agat, a Phríomh-LeasCheann Comhairle. Gabhaim buíochas leis an Chéad Aire as an fhreagra sin. I thank the First Minister for his answer. Double confirmation is double confirmation, as they say. Does the First Minister agree that job creation and the expansion of the university are two of the main planks that will assist the regeneration of the north-west in line with the Programme for Government?

Peter Robinson (DUP, Belfast East)

I am very sympathetic to the case for Magee, which, I assume, is what he is talking about. I was one of those who felt strongly that, if we could do it financially, there should be an increase in the cap. I also strongly believe that that increase should take place in the STEM subjects. I have argued that, if, in the future, some of what we have to do in difficult financial times is about reducing public expenditure by reducing the number of people who work in the public services and if we are going to have a voluntary exit scheme, we will need to ensure that the private sector is bolstered in order to take up the slack. The only way you can do that is through the work that DEL and DETI are doing: getting people with the necessary qualifications to take the jobs that are coming into Northern Ireland and, at the same time, ensuring that we have the jobs coming in to be filled, as DETI is doing. I am strongly of the view that we need to continue to have the growth of students coming out with the necessary qualifications for the above-medium salary levels that we are now attracting to Northern Ireland. That can only be done with the support of our universities, including Magee.

Gordon Dunne (DUP, North Down)

T4. asked the First Minister and deputy First Minister whether they are aware of any plans on the part of the new Minister for Social Development to introduce legislation in relation to welfare reform. (AQT 1624/11-15)

Peter Robinson (DUP, Belfast East)

I think the House knows that the Minister's predecessor brought legislation to the Assembly. There has not been agreement around the Executive table on how to take welfare reform forward. However, I point out to everyone in the House that it is not the Bill that is the problem; the House could easily pass the Bill without violence to the principles of anybody on either side of the House. It is the regulations that flow from the Bill that would be the issue.

We have an Executive convention of not bringing legislation to the Assembly unless the Executive are agreed on that legislation. Maybe that is one of the issues that parties will want to consider when we are talking about the arrangements at Stormont. I have heard requests from several parties in the Assembly that we bring the Bill to the Assembly. That seems to be a change in the convention, and it would mean that any Minister could bring a Bill to the Chamber, even if it did not have the agreement of the Executive. I think that we need to be careful about any precedent that is set. There may well be a time, if we are encouraged sufficiently, when we will bring the Bill to the Assembly, but the worst of all circumstances is bringing a Bill to the Assembly, having it defeated and ending up in circumstances where there is no route out of our present difficulties.

Gordon Dunne (DUP, North Down)

I thank the First Minister for his answer. Has he any proposals on how welfare reform can be progressed?

Peter Robinson (DUP, Belfast East)

"Lots", I think, is the answer to that. Taking into account the position adopted by other parties, I think there still is a way forward, provided that people are prepared to come forward with a reasonable outcome. Nobody will get everything that they want in this proposition. My party voted against many aspects of the Bill at Westminster in the Commons and in the Lords. However, we recognise that there is a balance. We have to protect the most vulnerable, but they are affected in two ways. Some will be affected by any reduction that would take place in their welfare payments, but most will be affected if there is a substantial reduction in public services and the health service, the education service and the Police Service get run down as a result of £1,000 million being taken out of our block grant. We need to balance those issues and make sure that we do something that is in the best interests. Although it may be difficult for some in our society, we need to do the best that we can for all of them. The bottom line on the issue is that, if we do not succeed in doing this and, as a result, the future of the Assembly and Executive is threatened, we would not be able to provide any protection at all to the most vulnerable under direct rule. They would not get the enhanced deal that is on offer.

Trevor Lunn (Alliance, Lagan Valley)

T5. asked the First Minister and deputy First Minister whether they agree that, if the talks are to bear fruit, there is an absolute need for compromise and goodwill to be shown by all sides of the House, with everyone participating. (AQT 1625/11-15)

Peter Robinson (DUP, Belfast East)

I have never known any talks or negotiations that have succeeded without there being compromise on both sides, and I think that there the Member encapsulates it — on both sides. Of course there needs to be goodwill, and of course parties need to roll up their sleeves and get down to the work. That is why I am pleased that my colleagues and I were the first and only party to put a serious submission to the Secretary of State.

Trevor Lunn (Alliance, Lagan Valley)

I thank the First Minister for that answer. Will he agree that it would have been a good start and a good gesture of goodwill to allow the election of a Speaker to proceed last week?

Peter Robinson (DUP, Belfast East)

When you have agreements, one agreement is valued as much as another. I made it clear last week that we stand over and will honour both of our agreements. We believe that, as one is being put into the talks process, the other should too. Hopefully, in a few weeks, we can come back and do exactly that on both agreements.

Samuel Gardiner (UUP, Upper Bann)

T6. asked the First Minister and deputy First Minister why Northern Ireland has seen only 4% savings in Civil Service costs in the last four years, compared to 10% in England. (AQT 1626/11-15)

Peter Robinson (DUP, Belfast East)

That is something that, I think, will be fast remedied by the proposals that we are now looking at. I suppose that the answer to it has something to do with the ambition of the Executive in relation to the number of new projects that have been commenced. However, it is very clear that, with 120,000 public servants in Northern Ireland for a population of 1·8 million people, we certainly can make reductions without having any serious impact on the services that are provided. I agree wholeheartedly with the trade unions that that has to be a planned reduction, perhaps over a period, to ensure that we do not leave any parts of the public service undermanned and that we are able to provide the service that people need. Four per cent towards 5% has been the reduction in Northern Ireland, but it has been about 8% in Scotland and about 10% in Wales. I think that it has even gone beyond that in England, where it has been about 12%. So, whatever the percentages, you could argue that some may have been at too high a level before the cull began. The truth of it is that we are looking very seriously at a voluntary exit scheme that would allow us to reduce the number of public servants and, therefore, reduce the amount of our Budget that goes to that cost. If we are able to take a couple of hundred million pounds off our Budget, there are certainly plenty of things that we could be using that expenditure on.

Samuel Gardiner (UUP, Upper Bann)

I thank the First Minister for his comments. If the Minister is not successful in getting the £120 million estimated savings, will he turn to compulsory redundancy?

Peter Robinson (DUP, Belfast East)

I do not think that anybody is talking about compulsory redundancy. Indeed, the head of the Civil Service does not want to be in the doorway when the proposal is put forward that there should be a voluntary exit scheme because he believes that there will be such a rush that he will get knocked down. So, I do not think that we are in that space at all. We obviously want to talk with the unions to see that we have a fair package for those who will exit the public service at this stage, but I do not believe that it will be necessary to have any compulsory redundancies.

Jonathan Craig (DUP, Lagan Valley)

T7. asked the First Minister and deputy First Minister what action their Department is taking to tackle the recent increase in race hate crime. (AQT 1627/11-15)

Peter Robinson (DUP, Belfast East)

Both the deputy First Minister and I are adamantly opposed to anybody who believes that it is right and proper to intimidate or to attack anyone on the basis of their race. I am glad that local representatives are doing what local representatives should and are going out and offering support to people who are under attack. We, of course, do have our own race relations programmes, which we will continue to roll out. The deputy First Minister and I will continue publicly to give our support to those who are under attack and to do whatever we can to discourage those and to encourage the police to bring forward convictions against those involved.

Jonathan Craig (DUP, Lagan Valley)

I thank the First Minister for his comprehensive answer. Does he agree that, given the complications of some of the attacks that are labelled race hate crimes, the justice system must equally hand out heavy sentences to reflect how heinous those crimes are?

Peter Robinson (DUP, Belfast East)

Yes, unquestionably. Anyone who is setting out on this kind of activity needs to know that society repudiates their actions. The clearest sign of repudiation of that kind of activity is the ability of the court to set down very strong custodial sentences to those who are involved. I would be going back to an earlier debate if I started to talk about minimum or mandatory sentences in these matters. I do not want to open that one up, but I think that everyone in the House will agree that there has to be a method to discourage people from getting involved. One way in which we can do that — it is within the power of the Assembly — is to look at the sentencing regime to see whether we can strengthen it.

Cathal Boylan (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

1. asked the Minister of Justice what action he has taken to address the amount being paid out for PSNI overtime. (AQO 6865/11-15)

David Ford (Alliance, South Antrim)

I have had general discussions on the police budget with the Chief Constable and members of the Policing Board. The allocation of the police budget, however, is an operational matter and, therefore, the responsibility of the Chief Constable, who is accountable to the board. It is not for me as Minister.

Cathal Boylan (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

Go raibh maith agat, a Phríomh-LeasCheann Comhairle. Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as an fhreagra. I thank the Minister for his reply. Will he give some consideration, when future planning, to whether the cost of police overtime will increase or decrease over the next number of years? Will he factor that into any consideration?

David Ford (Alliance, South Antrim)

It is clear that current changes will make it difficult for the police to manage the budget in line with their overall responsibilities, but I repeat that, operationally, I cannot go into the detail of how the Chief Constable chooses to divide his budget. If there are fewer officers at times, he may feel compelled to increase overtime. On the other hand, with a general reduction in budget, it is very difficult to see how that overtime can be increased significantly. I repeat: it is not for me to tell him how to allocate that budget.

Mitchel McLaughlin (Sinn Féin, South Antrim)

Mr Danny Kinahan is not in his place.

David McIlveen (DUP, North Antrim)

The Minister will be aware that, in light of the budgetary pressures, his Department has undergone a 4·4% decrease in its budget in the incoming year. However, the PSNI has had to undertake over 7%. Will the Minister confirm, as the Chief Constable has hinted, that he is putting barristers before bobbies?

David Ford (Alliance, South Antrim)

That is not a hint that I recognise from anything said by the Chief Constable. The Chief Constable has to live within the budget that is allocated to the PSNI, just as every other spending area of the Department of Justice has to live within its spending limit. The reality is that there were significant pressures in the Department of Justice, not least because we had not driven through the programme of legal aid as fast as would have been hoped, and some matters have been resting before the Justice Committee for some months.

All that has contributed to a build-up on the current pressure, which, faced with the decision of the Finance Minister and the Executive to change the basis on which the DOJ budget was ring-fenced in-year without warning, has given significant difficulties to the Department of Justice. Given that there have been significantly greater cuts over the comprehensive spending review period to the block as a whole because of the linkages to the Home Office and the MOJ, further severer cuts have now been imposed on the Department of Justice. Given the existing legal pressures under which legal aid is obliged to be paid, it was simply not possible to protect all the spending areas that we would have wished to.

Dolores Kelly (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Upper Bann)

Notwithstanding that police overtime is an operational matter for the Chief Constable, does the Minister agree that much of it is because of the failure to show leadership at public order events, particularly parades and protests? Therefore, if there are any gaps in the legislation that need to be filled, would the Minister look at giving political cover to the Chief Constable for charging for such events?

David Ford (Alliance, South Antrim)

I certainly agree with Mrs Kelly's first point, which was that a very significant amount of overtime is related to public order issues, as I have said in the Chamber on more than one occasion and, I fear, may have to say on more occasions.

As to the precise issue of charging for events that happen in open, public spaces, there are significant issues that go beyond the kind of instant response that we might wish for. I have no doubt that some Members would wish particular bodies to be charged for events that they hold in the open air, and perhaps other Members would prefer that other people were charged. That is a measure of the difficulty. We need a resolution to the kind of problems that have led to public order difficulties on the streets over the last couple of years. We need political leadership, which the First Minister just talked about, coming into play in a talks process so that we can cut back on public order disputes and, incidentally, on the expense of policing them.

Michaela Boyle (Sinn Féin, West Tyrone)

Go raibh maith agat. Can the Minister commit to providing extra resource to the ombudsman's office in light of the additional funding that he received lately?

David Ford (Alliance, South Antrim)

It is a slight jump from the funding of the police to the funding of the Office of the Police Ombudsman, which is, I take it, what the Member meant. The reality is that the Office of the Police Ombudsman is being protected very significantly compared with other aspects of Department of Justice spending. It is the only spending area in the justice family to have an increase in expenditure over the last three years, and, this year, it is suffering monitoring round cuts of no more than the average, the 4·4% that has just been spoken of. That seems to me very significant protection for the Police Ombudsman.

Sammy Wilson (DUP, East Antrim)

Given the concern from the SDLP and Sinn Féin about the pressures on the police overtime budget, does the Minister agree that one simple way of reducing those pressures would be for those two parties to stop manufacturing contentious parades that require additional policing and therefore increase the police overtime bill?

David Ford (Alliance, South Antrim)

It would be so much nicer if, when the Member was asking me to agree with him, he did not stand wagging his finger at me in a manner that is coming close to being unparliamentary.

I thought that I made general points about contentious parades and public order matters. They were not in any sense aimed at one particular group that organises such parades. The reality is that we have problems with parades and protests in different areas and with people from different backgrounds, although I was not aware that the SDLP organised many, so perhaps somebody can tell me about that in the next question. Clearly, there are significant concerns about the imposition on public order and the concomitant difficulties in community relations that come from a number of parades and related protests. As I said earlier, I hope that that will be ended by a resolution in the talks process.

Mitchel McLaughlin (Sinn Féin, South Antrim)

Here at least, we will move on.

Fearghal McKinney (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast South)

3. asked the Minister of Justice for an update on the work of the prison review oversight group, including the impact that the proposed budget cuts will have on the implementation of the 40 recommendations contained in the prison review team report. (AQO 6867/11-15)

David Ford (Alliance, South Antrim)

To date, the prison review oversight group, which I chair, has deemed 16 of the 40 prison review team (PRT) recommendations complete. The group referred a further 17 recommendations to Criminal Justice Inspection Northern Ireland (CJINI) and the Regulation and Quality Improvement Authority (RQIA), as appropriate, for independent assessment. This means that 33 of the 40 recommendations are complete or under assessment. I expect that the seven remaining recommendations will be brought to the oversight group in December 2014 or March 2015.

This reform programme has been about modernising the Northern Ireland Prison Service (NIPS) to ensure resources are best directed at reducing reoffending and making the community safer. As part of that, we have also developed a more efficient and effective service. The foundations have been laid for lasting change. However, the economic challenges that we now face were not envisaged by the prison review team when it made its recommendations.

The review team anticipated that savings made through reform initiatives such as the voluntary early retirement scheme could be reinvested in prisons, but this has not been possible; nor has it been possible to invest as much in the voluntary and community sector as the review team and I had hoped.

Whilst my ambitions have not diminished, the reality is that difficult decisions will need to be made on how NIPS delivers for everyone in Northern Ireland.

Despite the cuts, the reforms being overseen by the prison review oversight group are significant and lasting. While the budget reduction is challenging, I believe that we can continue to deliver a modern, focused prison service with partnership working to reduce offending at its core.

Fearghal McKinney (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast South)

I thank the Minister. I hear from him that the budgetary cuts are impacting severely, if I am not putting words in his mouth. What impact will there be on the provision of health care, including mental health care, in the Prison Service?

David Ford (Alliance, South Antrim)

Mr McKinney referred to the general issue of cost. Let me give a couple of figures. At the time of devolution in 2010-11, the cost per prisoner place was almost £74,000 per year; it has been reduced to, in the last financial year, under £63,000. That is a 21% reduction anticipated by this year — a significant improvement in efficiency. The specific point that he highlighted was around health care, specifically mental health care, which I acknowledge is a significant issue for prisons. Actually, as it is now the responsibility of the South Eastern Trust, it is an issue for DHSSPS to address, not DOJ. Clearly we work in partnership, but the precise issue of how services are provided is not something that I can answer.

Raymond McCartney (Sinn Féin, Foyle)

Go raibh maith agat, a Phríomh-LeasCheann Comhairle. Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as an fhreagra sin. I think the Minister for his answer. He gave some indication about the roll-out of the implementation plan. Can the Minister provide some update as to its impact on Maghaberry prison?

David Ford (Alliance, South Antrim)

I believe that there has been a significant impact across all three prisons, not just Maghaberry. For example, at Maghaberry we have seen, with the opening of Quoile House, significant work being done with those who wish to reduce drug dependency, and work being done on the Family Matters landing. I also visited, in Glen House, a specific, intensive project for 12 prisoners seeking to come off drug habits. All of that is related to ensuring that people are less likely to reoffend when they come out. There has also been ongoing engagement, particularly through Business in the Community, with potential employers to ensure that we provide the opportunities for people to get employment when they leave and, therefore, be less likely to reoffend. All of those are significant issues, working with partners in the voluntary and community sector, and with staff being used in a more effective way to promote the rehabilitation of prisoners. I think that we have seen significant improvements from that work at Maghaberry and in the other two institutions.

Jo-Anne Dobson (UUP, Upper Bann)

Minister, why is there no progress in reducing the misuse of drugs in prison?

David Ford (Alliance, South Antrim)

I have just given examples of work being done to reduce drug dependency in prison. There is clearly a significant drug problem in prisons, just as there is in the whole of society. Sadly it is not something that can be avoided in prisons when it is so prevalent elsewhere. However, there is work being done around education and prevention, and there is work being done to assist those who indicate a willingness to come off drugs in different ways. There is no doubt that, for example on some of the preventive work, a much more focused programme of intelligence-led rather than random searching has led to a reduction in the number of searches but an increase in the amount of drugs found. That is an indication of good work being done in the Prison Service.

Gregory Campbell (DUP, East Londonderry)

4. asked the Minister of Justice for his assessment of the difficulties faced by the PSNI and the people detained in the Limavady area, since the decision to close the custody suite at Limavady Police Station. (AQO 6868/11-15)

David Ford (Alliance, South Antrim)

The decision to close the custody facilities at Limavady police station is an operational matter for the Chief Constable. I understand that the Chief Constable has already outlined his reasons for the closure to the Member and indicated that he is confident that it will not impact on crime levels or outcome rates in the area.

Gregory Campbell (DUP, East Londonderry)

I thank the Minister for the response. However, is he aware that my information is that, shortly after the Limavady custody suite was closed, the Coleraine custody suite was also closed temporarily? Has he an indication from the Chief Constable as to when the Coleraine custody suite will reopen, given that the current position is that many people being detained have to travel 50, 60 or more miles for custody?

David Ford (Alliance, South Antrim)

I have no specific information on the Coleraine question. However, given that in the Limavady area — policing district G — there are currently operational custody suites in the Waterside, Strand Road and Strabane, I am not quite sure how anybody from that direction would be travelling 50 or 60 miles.

If it is an issue for Coleraine, then the distance from Coleraine to Antrim, where there is a very significant custody suite, is somewhat less than 50 miles.

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

5. asked the Minister of Justice what assurances he can give that victims of historical institutional abuse will have their cases brought before a court where sufficient evidence is provided. (AQO 6869/11-15)

David Ford (Alliance, South Antrim)

Where individuals commit serious crimes, the shared focus of our justice system is to bring them to account for their actions. Where there are allegations of historical institutional abuse, it is the responsibility of the police to gather and present evidence and of the Public Prosecution Service to assess the strength of the case prepared by the police and determine whether it should proceed to court. As Minister of Justice, I, quite rightly, have no direct role in that process. Consequently, whilst I can confirm that the PSNI is devoting considerable resources to investigating historical institutional abuse, it is a matter for police officers to present the outcome of their investigations and for the independent prosecution service to determine whether that constitutes sufficient evidence to bring such cases to court.

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

I thank the Minister for his answer. I welcome the fact that he included the PPS because, last week, when responding on the Maíria Cahill issue, he referred solely to the Police Ombudsman who, of course, has no responsibilities for the PPS or, indeed, for Northern Ireland Office interference. Can I have an assurance from the Minister that, in investigations into historical abuse, whether it is a police officer in Kincora, a priest in Rubane or a Provo in west Belfast, there will be no untouchables when it comes to paedophile abuse?

David Ford (Alliance, South Antrim)

As Minister, I cannot guarantee — I think that that is the term the Member used — that that is the case, but it is certainly my belief that there are no untouchables in the way that the PSNI and the PPS conduct their responsibilities in the present day. There are clearly difficulties in dealing with those points when we go back a number of years. That is what is coming from the historical institutional abuse inquiry, and I have seen no evidence to suggest that any matters that arise will not be properly considered by the agencies responsible for investigation and prosecution carrying out their duties fairly and impartially.

Mike Nesbitt (UUP, Strangford)

The Minister will be aware that much historical abuse did not take place in institutions, leaving people like Maíria Cahill feeling abandoned. What are his proposals for ensuring that such victims are not left feeling like second-class citizens compared to the victims of institutional abuse?

David Ford (Alliance, South Antrim)

The Member has highlighted one particular issue concerning one particular young lady, and that is obviously a matter that causes considerable concern to many of us given the way that it was reported in the media.

Running into the issue of an inquiry is more difficult in the context where we are merely, at this stage, talking about one case. If there are others, as has been hinted at by Ms Cahill, whom she is aware have been similarly abused, I urge them to come forward, however long it may be since their abuse, and make their concerns known to the police so that they can do their work and prepare a file and pass it to the Public Prosecution Service. That is what we hope anybody would do, and, in current circumstances, I believe that there is no reason why anybody should not be prepared to put their trust in the work to be done by the PSNI and the PPS.

If wider issues emerge from that, it may well be that there are appropriate issues to be considered by a public inquiry, but the important issue at this stage is that any of us who have any influence should encourage anybody who is in that position to come forward, however difficult the issues may be and however long ago it may be, and report their concerns and ensure that the police have them investigated.

Ian Milne (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

Go raibh maith agat, a Phríomh-LeasCheann Comhairle. Can the Minister reaffirm that all investigations and prosecution processes should be free from political interference?

David Ford (Alliance, South Antrim)

I detected an irony warning immediately to my right. I can certainly confirm that all investigations into any criminal allegation should be free from political interference, but, of course, I cannot guarantee that other politicians will not attempt to interfere.

Alban Maginness (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast North)

I thank the Minister for his previous answers. The most interesting answer was, of course, that if there are other people affected in a similar way to Maíria Cahill, the Minister could see a public inquiry. Is the Minister saying that he himself would try to set up that public inquiry, and is he committed to that if other victims emerge?

David Ford (Alliance, South Antrim)

I do not think that I am in a position to commit to such an inquiry. It seems to me that such a thing would have ramifications rather beyond my Department. However, I can only repeat the first point that I made. The important issue is that individuals come forward and make the police aware of what happened to them. That may then give us an assessment of the issues that may need to be addressed. Frankly, that goes back to the point that I made during the early part of Question Time about the wider issues concerned with reconciling the past and seeing how different institutions behaved at different times in the past as we seek to build a different and shared future.

Trevor Lunn (Alliance, Lagan Valley)

6. asked the Minister of Justice for an update on the plans to roll-out youth engagement clinics to all police districts. (AQO 6870/11-15)

David Ford (Alliance, South Antrim)

Youth engagement clinics have been operating successfully in Belfast since October 2012, and I am pleased to say that the plans to roll out youth engagement clinics to all police districts are well advanced. Training is currently being delivered to police officers in H district with a view to clinics being available in areas such as Ballycastle, Ballymena, Ballymoney, Coleraine and Larne by the end of November. Training will then be completed in the remaining police districts with a view to clinics being operational right across Northern Ireland in the first quarter of 2015. Based on experience to date, I am confident the clinics will help reduce the number of cases involving young people that proceed unnecessarily to court, and thereby improve processing times for youth court cases.

Trevor Lunn (Alliance, Lagan Valley)

I thank the Minister for his answer. Will he outline how the youth engagement clinics that ran during the pilot programme affected performance in youth cases?

David Ford (Alliance, South Antrim)

The key answer to that is that the pilot established significant successes for youth engagement clinics in terms of resolving issues more quickly than would have been dealt with by a court or even if they were disposed of by police by a different kind of diversion outside the youth engagement clinic. The analysis of the data gathered from the pilot in Belfast found that the average processing time was 39 days as opposed to 53 days for non-clinic diversion cases. The performance in youth cases in Belfast improved significantly. In the first quarter of this year, the time taken to prepare and submit a charge file was 11 days rather than 22 days in the same period in the previous year, which is very significant and shows that good work is being done and that the improvements are continuing in Belfast. It is absolutely clear that by maintaining this pathway to deal with low-level offending, we are able to see improvements in services for them, and also the concentration of resources on those where there are more significant issues. They have certainly been able to ensure that young people access the supports that they need to keep them off a reoffending path at an earlier stage, to the benefit of them and the community.

Alex Maskey (Sinn Féin, Belfast South)

Go raibh maith agat, a Phríomh-LeasCheann Comhairle. Is the Minister satisfied that the PCSPs should be really to the fore of ensuring maximum public engagement between the PSNI and the public?

David Ford (Alliance, South Antrim)

I really cannot see what PCSPs have to do with youth engagement clinics. My views on the need to maximise the efforts of PCSPs are well known to the House.

Robin Swann (UUP, North Antrim)

The Minister indicated that those youth engagement clinics will be rolled out across my constituency. Does he agree with those who seem to intimate that those clinics can be an easy and soft option for young offenders?

David Ford (Alliance, South Antrim)

I think that all the evidence is to the contrary. Many young people have said that they are being forced, at an early stage, to confront the consequences of their reoffending and, in many cases, to have a direct meeting with those whom the crimes were against. That is actually a more difficult task than waiting a few months and being given a fine or whatever. That is the whole point of the restorative approach that is taken in the youth justice system: it actually ensures that young people face up to the consequences of their behaviour, and they are then less likely to reoffend than if they were simply treated in a conventional way with a fine or whatever.

Mitchel McLaughlin (Sinn Féin, South Antrim)

I call Ms Bronwyn McGahan.

Bronwyn McGahan (Sinn Féin, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

Go raibh maith agat. Question 6. Sorry, question 7.

Bronwyn McGahan (Sinn Féin, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

7. asked the Minister of Justice how the rural crime unit is tackling agriculture crime in south Tyrone. (AQO 6871/11-15)

David Ford (Alliance, South Antrim)

I was going to answer question 7 anyway, Principal Deputy Speaker.The PSNI rural crime unit is a central resource for identifying trends and patterns of rural crime. The information is used by police commanders to enhance the effectiveness of their operational tactics in preventing and detecting rural and agricultural crime. The unit is supported by a data analyst, who is part-funded by my Department.

At a regional level, the work of the unit resulted in an initiative whereby over £3 million worth of agricultural equipment has now been fitted with security devices. At a strategic level, the work of the unit is supported by the rural crime partnership. The partnership, led by my Department, comprises representatives of the PSNI, NFU Mutual and the Department of Agriculture and Rural Development. The partnership recently met a range of stakeholders, including the Ulster Farmers' Union and the National Sheep Association, to seek their views on livestock theft. Discussions are ongoing to develop actions to help address that issue.

The unit's impact is reinforced at a local level by interventions delivered by PCSPs in conjunction with the PSNI. In south Tyrone, those have included Farm Watch, text alert schemes for farmers, trailer-marking and the provision of multipurpose security locks.

Bronwyn McGahan (Sinn Féin, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

Go raibh maith agat, a Phríomh-LeasCheann Comhairle. I thank the Minister for his response.

The remit of the rural crime unit is to help the PSNI utilise its resources in the most effective way. Can the Minister elaborate on how the unit can be used on a cross-border basis, given that Augher, which happens to be a hot spot for rural crime, is on a border with County Monaghan?

David Ford (Alliance, South Antrim)

I am always surprised when any MLA highlights their constituency as being a hot spot for crime, but it is the sad reality that, if we look at livestock thefts, we will see that the two counties out of 32 on the island that had the worst statistics last year were Armagh and Tyrone. The Member correctly highlights the problem that we have to address.

There are issues that clearly need to be addressed regarding the traceability of cattle in particular — sheep are more difficult — and there are issues where, on a cross-border basis, the work of the rural crime unit in analysing the data is of assistance to the PSNI as it works in cooperation with an Garda Síochána to deal with issues where there are clearly some cross-border movements of stolen livestock. However, ongoing vigilance is required, and we have yet to see the full statistical results of the rural crime unit's first year of operation, which is only just complete.

Tom Elliott (UUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

The Minister will be aware that, less than two weeks ago, the Chief Constable indicated that community policing in rural areas would become virtually non-existent. How worried is the Minister about that, particularly in places such as Fermanagh, south Tyrone and Armagh? Has he had any discussions with the Chief Constable about the situation?

David Ford (Alliance, South Antrim)

I frequently discuss those sorts of general issues with the Chief Constable. When he talked about the type of policing that is likely to become non-existent, he was specifically talking about neighbourhood policing as opposed to response policing. We need to be careful that we do not raise hairs unnecessarily. There is no doubt that, at a time of increasing difficulty, there will be problems for the PSNI in continuing to maintain services, and it is having to prioritise. That is why it is clear that certain difficult areas will be a priority for neighbourhood policing, while other areas will simply go back to the situation as it was not too long ago, where there was less of a neighbourhood policing input and more of a response policing input. However, the challenge is for the Chief Constable to determine exactly how he allocates resources. I can only report in general on what he said.

Kieran McCarthy (Alliance, Strangford)

8. asked the Minister of Justice what progress has been made in transforming Hydebank Wood Young Offenders Centre into a secure college. (AQO 6872/11-15)

David Ford (Alliance, South Antrim)

I am pleased to say that my Department has made significant progress in the challenging process of transforming the young offenders' centre into a secure college. The Northern Ireland Prison Service (NIPS) has worked to put in place the structures, processes and cultural change necessary to deliver a college that will not only meet the needs of those in custody but give them the skills that they need to build a positive life when they are resettled back into the community. Helping young offenders to change their life will in turn help make Northern Ireland safer.

Design principles have been developed that capture the vision, ethos and direction for the college, which we will implement in full from transition in April 2015. A number of significant developments that will provide the infrastructure for the college have been made. Those include a draft timetable across all residential areas. Progress has also been made on a curriculum for the college that will meet the specific needs of the prisoners and address educational underachievement by many of those in custody. The college will also build transferable vocational skills in areas such as horticulture, catering, construction trades and industrial cleaning that will help make the young men more employable when they are released back into the community. I recently chaired a meeting of the oversight group at Hydebank Wood and discussed the college development with the senior team in the Prison Service.

Kieran McCarthy (Alliance, Strangford)

Go raibh maith agat, a Phríomh-LeasCheann Comhairle. I thank the Minister for his very detailed response. Will he tell the Assembly whether the good work that is being done in Hydebank Wood could be replicated throughout all the Northern Irish prisons?

David Ford (Alliance, South Antrim)

Of course, the specific issue of a secure college for Hydebank Wood is not quite the same thing as would apply in the two adult male prisons. However, there is no doubt that a lot of good work is being done around rehabilitation in that context.

When I last visited Magilligan in the summertime, over half of the prisoners in Foyleview, the open aspect of Magilligan prison, had been out the day before engaged in constructive and positive work for local churches, charities and community groups. That was a sign of the kind of positive engagement around rehabilitation that happens there. The recent opening of Burren House on the Crumlin Road, as the working out unit for Maghaberry, is giving more prisoners the opportunity in the latter part of their time in custody to engage constructively and positively with the community.

There are, of course, educational opportunities in Magilligan and Maghaberry, but they are at a slightly different level from those that are aimed specifically at the younger offenders in Hydebank Wood. However, it is all part of a joined-up approach to try to ensure that, as far as possible, when people leave prison they have some sort of family support, some worthwhile activity, whether it is employment, education or further training, and suitable accommodation to live in. That is what makes society safer.

Mitchel McLaughlin (Sinn Féin, South Antrim)

That ends the period for listed questions. We now move to topical questions.

Trevor Lunn (Alliance, Lagan Valley)

T1. asked the Minister of Justice whether he agrees that, now that a new round of talks is under way, the dreadful revelations about the past that have emerged in recent days, some of which have been referred to today, make the case even more forcibly for a new and effective means with which to deal with the past. (AQT 1631/11-15)

David Ford (Alliance, South Antrim)

I have said it before now, and I fear that I may be repeating it, but the budget of the Department of Justice is a budget for dealing with the present and not the past. There are many issues of the past that seem to me to be only being dealt with by the Department of Justice, with the current exception of the historical institutional abuse inquiry.

It is absolutely clear that we need agreement on appropriate structures to meet the needs of the past. The revelations that came through last week from Maria Cahill are a reminder that there is a variety of issues from the past that need to be addressed. Those will require a joined-up approach by parties working together, the Executive working together and, hopefully, the two Governments working in conjunction with us.

Trevor Lunn (Alliance, Lagan Valley)

I thank the Minister for his answer. Whatever is agreed and promised to victims has to be deliverable. Will the Justice Department have a role to play in providing advice to the process to ensure that any new process is effective, efficient and article 2 compliant?

David Ford (Alliance, South Antrim)

I suppose that one of the difficulties that we saw during the talks that were led by Dr Richard Haass last autumn was that there was not the sort of information that has just been highlighted — whether that information comes from the Department of Justice or other Departments — about how things work within Northern Ireland. During the subsequent party leaders' talks in the early part of this year, my Department supplied a couple of papers to the party leaders' meeting. Those looked at issues relating to the past, how matters are currently being handled and how they might be better handled. If, as we go through the detail of the current round of talks, such papers are requested, my Department will certainly provide them. We currently bear the brunt of much of the difficulty of the past, and I am keen to ensure that we play our part in resolving the past.

Dominic Bradley (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Newry and Armagh)

T2. asked the Minister of Justice whether he is aware that today is the seventh anniversary of the dreadful murder of Paul Quinn who, in the words of the Independent Monitoring Commission, was murdered by current and former members of the IRA, and, given that, what message he has for those in south Armagh who have information about that terrible crime and those who attempted to criminalise Paul Quinn. (AQT 1632/11-15)

David Ford (Alliance, South Antrim)

Mr Bradley raises a very serious point. I confess that, although I saw some publicity last week, in the middle of everything else I was doing today, I had forgotten that this was the seventh anniversary. However, I had some meetings around that time, and I am well aware of the tragedy that that was for the Quinn family and others.

My message is the same one that I have just put out in other respects. Anybody who has any information about any criminal activity has a duty to report it to the PSNI so that the PSNI can investigate properly and, if there appears to be enough evidence for them to do so, to pass a file to the Public Prosecution Service so that it can determine whether there should be a prosecution. That is the responsibility of each and every one of us as citizens. It is also the responsibility of political leaders to put that point to the community and encourage those who have information to report crime.

Dominic Bradley (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Newry and Armagh)

Go raibh maith agat arís, a Phríomh-LeasCheann Comhairle. Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as an fhreagra. I thank the Minister for his answer. In light of what he said, will he join with me in meeting Stephen and Breege Quinn, Paul Quinn's parents? Will he also meet his counterpart in the South to bring himself up to date with the latest developments in the case?

David Ford (Alliance, South Antrim)

I thank Mr Bradley for those points. On his latter point, as Members know, I meet my colleague the Minister for Justice and Equality fairly regularly and frequently, and I am certainly very happy, when I next meet Frances Fitzgerald, to raise the issue with her.

On the specific issue of meeting Mr and Mrs Quinn, I frequently meet people who feel that they have been let down by the justice system in the past. I tend not to flag up those meetings in the media. I believe that, in those circumstances, things are better done with some discretion. Frequently, there is very little that the Minister can do but, if the Minister who is listening provides some measure of comfort to bereaved families, I am happy to use my time to provide that measure of comfort and assistance. If Mr Bradley wishes to talk about that privately with me later, I will happily discuss it with him.

Oliver McMullan (Sinn Féin, East Antrim)

T3. asked the Minister of Justice whether he is satisfied that the courts are doing enough in sentencing those involved in major organised crime in the Larne area. (AQT 1633/11-15)

David Ford (Alliance, South Antrim)

I need to be ever so slightly careful. There are a number of threads in that question. I need to be extraordinarily careful, as Minister, that I do not appear to be second-guessing the work of judges. I may talk about issues in general, and Members may talk in here about sentencing policy in general, as, indeed, we did earlier with human trafficking. However, we all need to be very careful that we do not stray beyond our specific role, and I need to be particularly careful, as Minister, that I do not stray beyond my role into issues of sentencing in individual cases.

The Member also highlights the Larne area. Frankly, my concerns are to ensure that I provide the appropriate support to all the justice agencies in dealing with serious and organised crime in every part of Northern Ireland, using the available resources and working in cooperation with our colleagues in an Garda Síochána and in England, Wales and Scotland. Hopefully, at some point in the near future, we will also bring in the services of the National Crime Agency to deal with the serious crime that it can fight. That issue applies in every part of Northern Ireland. So whilst the Member may wish to highlight Larne in particular, as Minister, I will put my concerns about the whole of Northern Ireland to the forefront in ensuring that justice agencies are assisted as best they can be in dealing with those issues.

Oliver McMullan (Sinn Féin, East Antrim)

Go raibh maith agat. I thank the Minister for that intriguing answer. Does he agree that the publicity that Larne has had recently and in the past shows that it is in the grip of loyalist paramilitaries and that that still goes on today? Earlier this year, 200 took over the town one night and caused mayhem, and we are still waiting to see whether any of them will be brought before the courts. It is my responsibility to provide answers when I am asked about it by the community. Will the Minister ensure that those who have been arrested and charged will be brought before the courts soon?

David Ford (Alliance, South Antrim)

I wish to see people who are guilty of crimes being arrested and brought before the courts soon, but I have no responsibility whatsoever for ensuring that that happens.

Mitchel McLaughlin (Sinn Féin, South Antrim)

I will not call the Member who is listed to ask topical question 4.

Caitriona Ruane (Sinn Féin, South Down)

T5. asked the Minister of Justice whether he has had any contact with his counterpart in the Republic of Ireland following the serious matter of the find of an illegal abattoir in County Monaghan at the weekend. (AQT 1635/11-15)

David Ford (Alliance, South Antrim)

I have not had any specific contact with my colleague about the illegal abattoir in County Monaghan. If there are specific issues that Ms Ruane thinks that I should be raising with Frances Fitzgerald, I have no doubt that she will now take the opportunity to tell me what they are.

Caitriona Ruane (Sinn Féin, South Down)

I strongly urge the Minister to engage with all relevant Departments, North and South, because this is a very serious matter, and I trust that the Minister sees that. It is important to be in contact with the Health Departments because of traceability and potential health concerns.

David Ford (Alliance, South Antrim)

I appreciate the serious points that have been made. I am not sure whether Ms Ruane was in the House when I answered an earlier question from her colleague Ms McGahan on the issue of livestock thefts and cross-border movements of livestock, which was highlighted from the south Tyrone side rather than the Monaghan side. I am well aware of those difficulties.

It is an issue on which there has been engagement between my Department and DARD, and I have no doubt that that will continue. There is also a concern about illegal abattoirs and the health standards operated in them. That principally involves DARD and DHSSPS on our side, and their southern departmental equivalents may also be involved.

There are real issues that tie into wider matters of organised crime that we have talked about. The PSNI has been leading the Changing the Mindset project on counterfeit goods and dubious services in Northern Ireland. We need to let people know that, if they are buying something, whether it is a dodgy DVD, inappropriate perfumes, batteries or meat, and it seems to be too good a bargain to be true, it almost certainly is. In the case of foodstuffs, there is the potential for significant health issues. Those involved in any part of the food supply chain need to carry out their duties properly to ensure the full safety and full security of the food chain throughout. Customers must ensure that they are careful about where they buy their produce and do not get taken in by backstreet or car-boot deals that are too good to be true.

Steven Agnew (Green, North Down)

T6. asked the Minister of Justice for an update on the cross-departmental work that has taken place on early intervention. (AQT 1636/11-15)