Northern Ireland Assembly, 25 November 2014

407 contributions from 62 members. The official report.

Assembly Business

Gregory Campbell (DUP, East Londonderry)

On a point of order, Mr Principal Deputy Speaker. Can you inform the House whether, to your knowledge, the deputy First Minister and leader of Sinn Féin in this place has given any indication to your office that he will come before the Assembly to explain, clarify or apologise — or all three — for the remarks made by the overall leader of Sinn Féin and former Member of this House, Gerry Adams, last night in Enniskillen, when he talked about breaking people in my community?

Mitchel McLaughlin (Sinn Féin, South Antrim)

I did allow you to elaborate. Quite clearly, it is not a point of order. We will proceed.

Jim Allister (Traditional Unionist Voice, North Antrim)

On a point of order, Mr Principal Deputy Speaker. Is there any indication of a statement from OFMDFM as to the integrity of its equality policy, given that, for one part of that Department, it is a Trojan Horse?

Mitchel McLaughlin (Sinn Féin, South Antrim)

The Member knows very well that that is not a point of order. He is particularly well equipped to know the difference. It is not a point of order. I do wish that he would desist from abusing the procedures of the House. I am paying careful attention to that abuse. It has been going on for too long and should stop.

Executive Committee Business

David Ford (Alliance, South Antrim)

I beg to move

That the draft Justice (Northern Ireland) Act 2002 (Amendment of section 46(1)) Order (Northern Ireland) 2014 be approved.

This draft order seeks to amend section 46(1) of the Justice (Northern Ireland) Act 2002 in respect of the list of organisations that the Chief Inspector of Criminal Justice in Northern Ireland has the power to inspect. This follows a review of the organisations that are currently listed. Since section 46(1) was last revised in 2010, the criminal justice system has evolved, resulting in some changes affecting relevant organisations that require the current legislation to be updated. As a result, this draft order seeks to amend section 46(1) to ensure that the legislation remains relevant and meaningful.

The role of chief inspector of criminal justice is to ensure the inspection of all aspects of the criminal justice system in Northern Ireland, with a view to promoting effectiveness, efficiency and even-handedness. Following an inspection, the chief inspector will prepare a report for me, as Justice Minister, which I will arrange to be laid before the Assembly.

Since the introduction of the Justice (Northern Ireland) Act 2002, section 46(1) has been amended on a number of occasions to reflect the evolving operating environment of the criminal justice system and, in particular, the various changes that have impacted on the organisations working in it. The changes relate to organisations that have been added to section 46(1) due to the type of work carried out, organisations that have been omitted and organisations requiring their titles to be amended.

The draft order has been produced following a review of section 46(1) carried out by my Department. The key factors behind initiating the review were the closure of the Compensation Agency, which brought its work within the core Department of Justice, and a proposed private Member's Bill from Robin Swann, which sought to add DARD's central investigation service (CIS) to section 46(1). Following a consultation with Mr Swann and the Minister of Agriculture and Rural Development, that measure has been included in the order.

As part of the review, ministerial colleagues were asked for their views on section 46(1) in relation to their Departments and arm's-length bodies. Consequently, a few further amendments to section 46(1) were identified as being necessary. Therefore, the draft order proposes the following changes to section 46(1). The Compensation Agency will be removed as it ceased to exist as an agency of the Department of Justice on 1 April last year, and its work has been brought within the core Department. The central investigation service in DARD is to be added to section 46(1) due to the type of work undertaken. CIS investigates allegations of fraud, breaches of scheme conditions and non-compliance with legislation referred by other business areas in DARD. CIS also plays a vital role in the prevention and deterrence of fraud by performing a range of counter-fraud functions, including training in fraud awareness, investigation procedures and court skills. The Veterinary Service enforcement branch, which is also in DARD, is to be added to section 46(1) due to the nature of the work it undertakes, which includes enforcing compliance with legislation relating to animal health and welfare and public health. The description of the health and social services boards and health and social services trusts will be amended to the Health and Social Care Board and health and social care trusts to reflect a change in the description of those organisations. Finally, the description of the Northern Ireland Child Support Agency will be amended to the child maintenance and enforcement division to reflect a name change.

The Chief Inspector of Criminal Justice has been consulted on the proposed amendments to section 46(1), and he is content. Should the Assembly approve the draft order, the updated remit of the Chief Inspector will come into effect from tomorrow. I thank ministerial colleagues and, as usual, the Justice Committee for their consideration of the proposals. It is with their support that I bring the order before the House today. I also acknowledge and thank Robin Swann for his contribution towards bringing forward the order.

Some Members

Hear, hear.

David Ford (Alliance, South Antrim)

Well, not that much.

The draft order will help to ensure that the Chief Inspector of Criminal Justice in Northern Ireland has the appropriate remit to inspect the various organisations working in the criminal justice system and to identify areas in which there is potential for improvement. I commend the draft order to the House.

Paul Givan (DUP, Lagan Valley)

I am pleased to speak very briefly on the motion today on behalf of the Committee for Justice. The Committee considered the proposal for the statutory rule in June this year and the statutory rule itself more recently at the meeting on 22 October 2014. As outlined by the Minister, the rule provides for a refresh of the list of organisations at section 46(1) of the Justice (Northern Ireland) Act 2002 that the Chief Inspector of Criminal Justice Inspection Northern Ireland (CJINI) has the power to inspect.

The Committee noted that the list of organisations at section 46(1) had become outdated and therefore required amending by the Department of Justice to reflect the title changes of some organisations, remove organisations that no longer exist and, perhaps most importantly, add those organisations carrying out work related to the criminal justice system that are not listed in the legislation. The Committee was also aware that Mr Robin Swann intended to pursue a private Member's Bill, with the purpose of adding the Department of Agriculture and Rural Development's central investigation service to the list of organisations that must be inspected by CJINI. The Department of Justice advised the Committee that the statutory rule could be used to make the change, which was supported by the Minister of Agriculture and Rural Development. The Committee was content with that approach, which avoided the need for primary legislation. I outlined that the Committee agreed that it was content with the revised list of organisations and the statutory rule, so the Committee gives its support to it.

Let me briefly, too, commend Robin Swann for his initiative in pursuing this item with the Minister of Agriculture and Rural Development. We have been able to expedite it in a fashion that achieved what he wanted. So I commend the Member for those efforts.

CJINI is an organisation that many of us have a lot of respect for because of the way in which it goes about its work in carrying out inspections. It is important that there is public confidence that all these organisations are doing the job appropriately, and CJINI can provide that assurance to us as elected representatives on behalf of the people of Northern Ireland. I think that it is right that we update the list today and support the statutory rule before us.

Robin Swann (UUP, North Antrim)

After endorsements from both the Minister and the Chair, it would be remiss of me if I did not inform the House and put on record why I brought a private Member's Bill to include the Central Investigation Service in the list that can be inspected by Criminal Justice Inspection Northern Ireland.

The first question that the Minister raised was why CIS was not on the list, and I found that quite strange when I started to investigate. The reason that DARD gave was that CIS was not on the list in section 46 of the Justice (Northern Ireland) Act because it did not exist in 2002. Mr Principal Deputy Speaker, that is correct. CIS did not exist in 2002; it was called the Fraud Investigation Unit. Its name was changed in 2002, so it fell outside the Act. That was one of the concerns that started to alert me to why this unit needed to be included under Criminal Justice Inspection.

Also, when you look at the efficiency and proficiency of the organisation in investigating fraud, there was something that raised concerns. Over a five-year period between 2009 and 2014, CIS investigated 1,286,000 cases of potential fraud; over that five-year period they brought in the region of 66,000 successful prosecutions. That is a success rate of 5.15% on the cases that they looked into. The cost of the unit over that time was £733,000, so it did not look to be an efficient unit when running at its best.

The Minister referred to the fact that part of its remit is in fraud training, and CIS says that that is one of its main concerns. Something that concerned me was that we have a unit in the Department of Agriculture providing fraud awareness training to DCAL, DARD and OFMDFM, yet the approved DFP provider for fraud awareness training in Northern Ireland Civil Service Departments is the Chartered Institute of Public Finance and Accountancy. It is not actually CIS, although it claims that that is its core reason for existing.

Here we have a unit in the Department of Agriculture that is training other Departments in how they should investigate fraud, but in DARD's 2010-11 Resource Accounts for the year ended 31 March 2011, the Comptroller and Auditor General stated at paragraph 22:

"I am concerned that most of the suspected fraud cases referred to CIS during 2010-2011 had not been reported to me as required by Managing Public Money Northern Ireland."

So here we have a unit in DARD providing training to other Departments on how to investigate and manage fraud not following the procedures that it was training other Departments to use.

In the round, and the Minister indicated this in his explanation, CIS is a fraud investigation unit in the Department of Agriculture. That is correct; that is where the unit sits. However, it has investigated fraud in the Department of Agriculture, in the Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure and in the Department of Health; it was the organisation that undertook the inquiry into the whole-time recruitment, overtime and expense claims of the Northern Ireland Fire and Rescue Service. It investigated fraud in OFMDFM and is reportedly the unit that found that a fraud investigation should be carried out on Families Acting for Innocent Relatives (FAIR). It did not actually undertake the investigation, but it was responsible for it.

As a unit sitting within our Agriculture Department, it also had the responsibility to investigate fraud within the SEUPB. So, it gave it a remit to investigate fraud cases in the Republic of Ireland and Scotland. However, the main issue was that, when I met departmental officials in regard to that, they were unaware that the service level agreement for one of their units actually allowed it to act outside Northern Ireland.

The main reason why I became interested in this unit was not because of what I have outlined; it was because of a Deloitte report that came about because of the operations of the unit. Out of five investigators who were employed at that time, three used whistle-blowing protocols so that they could highlight their concerns. I will raise some of those. They are from Project Rainbow. At 4.16 of the report, it states:

"In summary, Mr Murphy had claimed for £51,000 of funding for the construction of a farm building under FNMS. However, Grants and Subsidies Inspection Branch had identified that the building that Mr Murphy was claiming for was not at the required stage of completion by the date of the scheme's deadline. Nevertheless, DARD made an advance payment to Mr Murphy of circa £25,000."

The report goes on to state:

"However, prior to conducting an interview, the Head of CIS decided to close the case."

And:

"An additional issue for the whistleblowers with regard to this case was that Mr Murphy had political connections and had been lobbying the Minister for DARD. The whistleblowers were therefore concerned that the case may have been dropped due to political pressures."

Deloitte could not find any written evidence of that, so it was included in the recommendations that that protocol should be strengthened.

Paragraph 4.25 of the Deloitte Rainbow report refers to a McDaid case. It states:

"This relates to allegations made by the whistleblowers that the Head of CIS acted unlawfully by not following the law on disclosure and investigation procedure in the following ways: • allowing a defence solicitor unaccompanied access to the McDaid investigation file; and • fabricating investigation notes."

The report goes on to state:

"It was evident from our review that the particular diary entry of 14 April 2005 had been made retrospectively by the Head of CIS as it made reference to McDaid, although he had not been identified as a potential suspect at the time. This raises concerns that the notebook entries may have been completed retrospectively rather than contemporaneously. This could have had a detrimental impact on the case for the prosecution had it gone to court."

Those are two cases that were raised by the whistle-blowers that were investigated by Deloitte and put forward in Project Rainbow back in 2010. There was no move made by any other body or group to investigate these cases to find out what had been going on.

When I pushed DARD on whether it followed the 10 recommendations from Project Rainbow, it said that it had implemented most of them. The one that it did not implement was the final one, which is at paragraph 4.36:

"Once all the above issues have been suitably addressed, consideration could also be given as to whether CIS should be subject to an independent review by an appropriate external party to ensure that the arrangements in place within the branch are 'fit for purpose' and aligned to good investigatory practice."

Unquestionably, the Agriculture Department, the Department of Justice and both Ministers indicated that they were willing to engage with each other, but they never seemed to actually get over the line. That was the reason why I brought my private Member's Bill.

I thank the Minister for engaging so quickly in bringing CIS under the remit of the Criminal Justice Inspection. Following the introduction of this statutory rule and CIS being brought under CJI, and on the back of Project Rainbow and the concerns that were raised, did he contact CJI and ask it to move to an investigation of CIS?

David Ford (Alliance, South Antrim)

I repeat my thanks to the Committee Chair for the work that the Committee did in considering this rule. One of the key points that was made was when he referred to the respect with which CJINI is held among those of us who work across the justice system. There is absolutely no doubt that, sometimes, the reports produced by the Chief Inspector make uncomfortable reading. That is why they are so valuable. We know that we will get an accurate picture from the work that CJINI does and that we will not get anything that has any suggestion of a cover-up. We will always see the full warts-and-all picture. That is why it is important that we ensure that the list in section 46(1) is up to date. Mr Swann eloquently explained the concerns that he had about CIS within DARD and why it needed to be included. The point the Chair made about the confidence and respect that we have for CJINI is the answer to those concerns and will ensure that things are done.

I do, however, have to be cautious of his final request that I should ask CJINI to move. He referred to allegations of political pressure and, as ever as Minister, I need to be careful that I am not pressuring the normal procedure, which is that suggestions come from CJINI for a work programme that I approve.

I will be in communication with the Chief Inspector after this debate on the presumption that the House is about to pass the measure. I believe that the measure will, as was outlined by Mr Givan, Mr Swann and myself, facilitate the Chief Inspector in properly considering an appropriate list of organisations as it stands. Section 46(1) will be the appropriate and up-to-date list that will enable the Chief Inspector to consider his work programme. On that basis, I ask Members to support the motion.

Question put and agreed to. Resolved:

That the draft Justice (Northern Ireland) Act 2002 (Amendment of section 46(1)) Order (Northern Ireland) 2014 be approved.

Private Members' Business

Mitchel McLaughlin (Sinn Féin, South Antrim)

The Business Committee has agreed to allow up to one hour and 30 minutes for the debate. The proposer of the motion will have 10 minutes to propose and 10 minutes to make a winding-up speech. All other Members who wish to speak will have five minutes.

Robin Swann (UUP, North Antrim)

I beg to move

That this Assembly notes the decision to close the regional multiple sclerosis respite centre at Dalriada Hospital in Ballycastle until March 2015 and transfer the service to the independent sector; further notes the importance of appropriate respite provision for patients and their families; believes the decision to be entirely wrong and one which makes no financial sense; fears the decision will result in the permanent closure of the centre; and calls on the Minister of Health, Social Services and Public Safety to reverse the decision and immediately reinstate the service at Dalriada Hospital.

Thank you very much, Mr Principal Deputy Speaker. I suppose it is with disappointment that I have to move this motion. The content of the motion, as read by the Clerk and drafted by us, is nothing that I have not heard from the community, elected reps and pressure groups in regard to Dalriada.

It was Nye Bevan — I suppose, the father of the NHS — who said no society could legitimately call itself civilised if a sick person was denied medical aid because of a lack of means. I want to follow on from that with a quotation from one of the users of the respite centre at our first meeting at Bushmills, and Mervyn Storey was there that night. Robert Weiner, when he heard of the closure of the respite centre, said: "I thought of death, I thought of self-harm and I thought my life was ended". That was one of the most moving contributions to this whole campaign I have heard since it started.

It has been an incredible campaign, from the public meetings at Bushmills, Cushendall and Ballycastle, to a petition that I am sure now has over 20,000 signatures, to a tractor run, white-line protests, public protests, a religious service of hope last night in Sheskburn, and a campaign to Stormont last week.

The motion is a cross-party one, and there is nothing in its sentiments that the political representatives have not expressed at some stage during this campaign, which finished, of course, with the Minister's visit on Friday. I personally thank the Minister for taking the time to visit the unit so that he could see at first hand exactly what an excellent facility it is, and the services there. One of the benefits of devolution is that we have Ministers who can make these decisions and go and see at first hand what is happening.

I said at the last public meeting at Ballycastle that I knew the Minister was hearing the message but I was hoping that he was starting to listen to what it meant. I get the feeling from him that he understands from the people of Ballycastle the importance of the unit and what it has been delivering. Minister, I hope that you are listening to the people and not just to the information that has been provided by the trust, because, on the numbers presented about the costs, counterarguments have been made.

The Minister has said in the past that the decisions coming forward are the least-worst options and certainly not the best ones. I could not agree more, Minister: it is definitely not the best option to close any part of Dalriada.

I will set out my understanding of the process, and the Minister can correct me or update us later. The trust made recommendations to the Health and Social Care Board (HSCB) on how to save the money. The Health and Social Care Board then made those recommendations to the Department, and the Department made those recommendations to the Minister. In the words of the trust, some were accepted and some were not. Those that were accepted were passed back to the trust to implement.

The Minister has asked us to give alternatives, but perhaps he can explain to the House what the alternatives to the closure of Dalriada were. Is the closure of Dalriada acceptable compared with the alternatives? The words "temporary closure" have been used — a temporary closure until the end of March. However, the Minister has warned that "temporary" may mean "permanent" in some cases. That is where we are at.

Sammy Wilson (DUP, East Antrim)

I thank the Member for giving way. He is making a very compelling case for Dalriada. However, does he accept that it is not simply a case of batting this back to the Minister, because any alternative is likely to affect those of us who represent constituencies in the Northern Trust area? It is therefore is important that, if there is to be an alternative to Dalriada, there be some input from local representatives. That is why the Minister is quite right to say, "Let's hear what you want instead of the closure of Dalriada".

Robin Swann (UUP, North Antrim)

I thank the Member for his contribution, but that is the point that I made earlier. There was no engagement with us, as public representatives, prior to the closure of Dalriada, so we did not have an alternative. As I said, the trust made recommendations to the Health and Social Care Board, which then made those recommendations to the Department. The Department then made those recommendations to the Minister, and some were accepted and some were not. I say to Sammy Wilson —

Jim Wells (DUP, South Down)

Will the Member give way?

Robin Swann (UUP, North Antrim)

I will give way.

Jim Wells (DUP, South Down)

In case this runs as an argument, that was not the case. There was no second division. We asked the trust to come up with a series of savings, and it came back with a list to meet the target. No alternatives were given, and there was no decision by me that favoured one over another. The list that I have is the entire list, and the Member has it. There are no other options on the table.

Robin Swann (UUP, North Antrim)

You need to question the chief executive of the Northern Trust, then, because that is what he told me and a number of my party colleagues yesterday in front of witnesses. He said that there were alternatives put, of which some were accepted and some were not. As I said earlier, if the Minister is taking the word solely of the trust in this argument, that is a fine example of the trust telling you one story and telling other people something else.

This is not about point-scoring, Minister. I know that you have a tough job to do. You have asked us to provide alternatives, but we were told yesterday that you had been provided with alternatives to the closure of Dalriada. If that is not the case, it is something that you have to take up —

Peter Weir (DUP, North Down)

Will the Member give way?

Robin Swann (UUP, North Antrim)

I have given way already, Peter. I do not want to use up too much of my time by taking interventions. You will have time to speak later.

Minister, you have talked about the use of consultation and about wanting to consult, which is what Sammy Wilson referred to. We were led to believe yesterday that, after the closure of Dalriada on 30 November, the trust intends to go out to consultation on the temporary closure. Following that, it could go out to consultation on the permanent closure. If that is the consultation that the Minister is talking about when he says that he wants to consult, that concerns us, the public, the people of Ballycastle and everybody who has been involved in the campaign. We are looking at a decision that has been made and approved, and we are going out to consultation for the sake of it.

Some people have talked about us closing the stable door after the horse has bolted. I do not want it to be the case that we close the door of Dalriada after the service has been removed.

Fearghal McKinney (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast South)

Will the Member give way?

Robin Swann (UUP, North Antrim)

Briefly.

Fearghal McKinney (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast South)

Thank you for your indulgence: I know that you are under pressure of time. A lot of these considerations are around finance. Does the Member agree that there is a risk that there could be further, raised costs because, according to the MS Society, inadequate respite provision can lead to declining health?

Robin Swann (UUP, North Antrim)

Having met the MS Society, I know that that has raised great concerns; the support should be there as well.

Alternatives were proposed regarding two care homes. The Minister said, and much was made of the fact, that those homes were visited by two of the users and a member of the MS Society. Minister, you are relying on the fact that those people visited those homes, but what has been made very clear to me, and very clear to us yesterday, is the fact that those people went in good faith to see the facilities. They were not there to endorse them or give any sort of recommendation that they were better than Dalriada; they went in good faith to see what could be offered. I hope that the Minister does not take that to be an accepted alternative by the users of the respite centre at Dalriada Hospital.

I find it hard that, when we talk about the health service and Bevan's ideal, it all comes down to numbers. Minister, you answered a question that I asked a couple of weeks ago. You said that, out of 4,000 MS sufferers across Northern Ireland, only 69 had used the centre. Minister, there are trusts that do not use Dalriada because they have halted their contracts with the Northern Health Trust. That is why there is nobody going there from other trusts. They are given a budget to manage MS respite centres; how are the other trusts using that money? Are they using it well or efficiently? Dalriada provides a regional service. If those trusts have removed that service, surely it is up to the Minister to provide a regional service and coordinate the trusts?

Mr Principal Deputy Speaker, I have been generous with my time, and there is a lot more that I could have said and wanted to say. Minister, I do not believe that this has been an honest fight.

Mitchel McLaughlin (Sinn Féin, South Antrim)

The Member's time is up, I am afraid.

Robin Swann (UUP, North Antrim)

The trust has been standing on Dalriada's neck whilst it claimed to be holding its hand.

Mitchel McLaughlin (Sinn Féin, South Antrim)

The Member's time is up. You were very generous with your time, and you handled interventions with some skill and forbearance, but this is obviously a topic about which people are very engaged and anxious, so I suggest that remarks are addressed through the Chair. You handled it particularly well, but, for the general management of the Assembly and discussion, all remarks should be made through the Chair, please.

Mervyn Storey (DUP, North Antrim)

It is sad that we stand in the shadow of comments made that somehow bring into question our own personal legitimacy, but no comment can be made to deny that there is a legitimate concern about the future of the provision in Dalriada.

I have lived in the constituency all my life. The hospital was opened in 1963 by Terence O'Neill. There is no doubt that the campaign that has been mounted over the last number of weeks is a credit to that community. Yes, it is disappointing that comments have been made as an attempt to politicise the issue, but they were not made by those who organised the protests and the campaign and who have been very focused on one thing: ensuring that they reflect the concerns in the community of Ballycastle and the wider area. I commend the Member for bringing the motion to the House.

I think that it would do us all well to consider a couple of things. First, we need to have a clear understanding of the services that are provided at Dalriada. It is not only a criticism of the trusts today but also a criticism of the trusts in the past that a hospital that was built to the highest spec in 1963 and was one of the most modern hospitals to be built in Northern Ireland was not allowed to be fully developed over the years. The Member wants me to give way.

Robin Swann (UUP, North Antrim)

I will pick up the Member's point. MS respite services were put there specifically for that reason after Peter Stott Martin House in Cullybackey was closed.

Mitchel McLaughlin (Sinn Féin, South Antrim)

The Member has an extra minute.

Mervyn Storey (DUP, North Antrim)

Thank you. I am going way back before that. Let us remember that Dalriada is the only hospital provision in the North Antrim constituency. Coleraine, where the Causeway Hospital is, is in East Londonderry, and Antrim Area Hospital is in South Antrim. So, I believe that, in the past, there was, unfortunately, a failure to address the needs of our community in terms of hospital provision.

Fearghal McKinney (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast South)

Thank you very much indeed for giving way. Will the Member accept that, despite that, there has now gathered an accumulated excellence around the care of MS sufferers and that to dissipate that will have wider financial and health implications?

Mervyn Storey (DUP, North Antrim)

That is the point that I want to come to. As I have said, we now need to have an understanding of the services we provide and that are provided in that hospital. It is not just about the step-up provision, and that is a very important role. It is about the MS provision. I pay tribute to the MS Society and to Patricia and those who are in the Public Gallery today, including Pat Crossley, who is a long-standing friend and colleague. I am delighted that they are here, but coming to the Assembly today and hearing from me what it is that they have all done will not be enough to ensure that the community is convinced that there is not a plan that, ultimately, is about the removal of that service.

This morning, we are going to hear from all Members about alternatives. The Minister —

Sammy Wilson (DUP, East Antrim)

Will the Member give way?

Mervyn Storey (DUP, North Antrim)

Yes, Sammy.

Sammy Wilson (DUP, East Antrim)

Will the Member share my concerns that, for some time, there has been, across a number of trusts, a desire to remove and close down certain facilities and that the current financial situation is being used as a cover to do something that may well have been, as he is describing, a long-term plan anyway?

Mervyn Storey (DUP, North Antrim)

That is the point that I was going to come to. Let us look at MS provision. Those who represent the MS Society will know that this is the case. For a long, long time, since I became an elected Member in North Antrim, this has been a concern. Clearly, there was a devised mechanism that was about ensuring that people were not being referred to the facility, and I think that the Member has made reference to that. That has been part of the reason that has created one of the difficulties.

However, there is another alternative, and I want to make this point. This is not a cheap political point but a call to every Member in this House of every party. All of the political parties in north Antrim have coalesced around the Save the Dal campaign, but we all know when we come through those Doors on occasions in this House, we are asked to support and endorse the spending of money on projects that bring little financial or economic benefit to the people we claim to serve. I say to Members that this is the challenge for us all if health is a priority. Yes, the Health Minister has got additional money, and, yes, the matter of how you feed that large machine is difficult.

Mitchel McLaughlin (Sinn Féin, South Antrim)

The Member's time is almost up.

Mervyn Storey (DUP, North Antrim)

Here is the challenge to us. Can we ensure that, as a priority, health is put at the top of that list and we then collectively ensure that the Health Minister is given the resources that he needs so that we are not put in this position on a repeated and recurrent basis?

Daithí McKay (Sinn Féin, North Antrim)

Go raibh maith agat, a Phríomh-LeasCheann Comhairle. I support the motion. The front page of today's 'County Antrim Post' sums it up quite well. It says: "D-Day for Dalriada", and that is the view of the community in Ballycastle and the north coast. It is that today is the decision day, and they expect a decision and a firm opinion on the future of Dalriada from the Minister today.

The past few weeks have been fantastic in terms of the campaign that has been mounted by the Save the Dal group. It is quite clear that the MS unit has been run down. It has been run down deliberately.

Social workers have been told not to make referrals to the Dal. Of course, the MS unit is not just for the people of the north coast or Ballycastle. It is for people with multiple sclerosis across the North.

The civil servants and the Northern Trust need to be challenged, and the Minister does not need to be let off the hook altogether. At the end of the day, he has to be accountable for the actions of all those in his Department.

There has clearly been an agenda to run down the MS unit and the Dalriada, and a lot of that has to do with those at senior levels in the trust. The treatment of staff, patients and the entire community by the Northern Trust over the past two weeks has been absolutely shameful. I spoke to staff last week, and they were informed that they would start to be moved out of the Dalriada yesterday — Monday. I contacted senior officials in the Northern Trust, who told me that staff would absolutely not be moved on Monday and that that was false information. I went back to the staff, who told me that they had not been told otherwise, and I then went back to the senior officials, who told me that they had got it wrong.

Something is going on, and I think that there is and has been an effort by Northern Trust officials to try to pull the wool over the eyes of elected officials of the community on different issues over the years. The Minister needs to get to grips with that issue and with the board of the Northern Trust. Indeed, when it comes to savings, the board and the Northern Trust never look at themselves or at the amount of money that is spent on their wages, yet they are quite happy to turn to front-line services.

Jim Wells (DUP, South Down)

Will the Member give way?

Oliver McMullan (Sinn Féin, East Antrim)

Will the Member give way?

Daithí McKay (Sinn Féin, North Antrim)

Yes.

Jim Wells (DUP, South Down)

I think that I was first. Even if I accept the Member's premise, and we did lay off management — 90% of our management costs are on staff — we would not receive any savings for three years. So that suggestion would not get me out of the intense difficulty that I am in. I have to find £70 million by the end of March 2015.

Mitchel McLaughlin (Sinn Féin, South Antrim)

The Member has an extra minute.

Daithí McKay (Sinn Féin, North Antrim)

Thank you. Part of the problem is that those things have not been done. They were not done two, three or four years ago to ensure that we have the savings now for front-line services in the Dalriada.

Every time that savings have to be made, they seem to come from front-line services. They especially seem to be made from services in rural areas, and this decision was not rural proofed. The Dalriada was seen as a soft touch by the Northern Trust and an easy option that would not get any resistance from the community. What we have learned and what we already knew is that the Dalriada is a gold standard hospital that is absolutely at the heart of the local community.

I received correspondence from one constituent, who outlined his experience. Of course, the Minister will have got a number of similar pieces of correspondence in recent times. I want to read from that letter:

"My father lost a leg in 2003. His operation took place in Musgrave. He thought he was finished. The longer he stayed in Musgrave, the lower he got. This was the first time that I ever saw my father cry when we were leaving him after visiting time. Then a bed became available in the Dalriada. From the day he arrived in the Dalriada and started receiving visits from the locals, his whole life began to improve. He improved to the extent that he eventually got home. He then got his artificial leg and learned to walk again. He started driving and taking an interest in the livestock again. This would never have happened if he had had to stay in hospitals in Belfast. He was a countryman. Shortly after this, my mother developed Alzheimer's. She was able to manage at home with my sisters looking after her and my father keeping an eye on her when they were not about. When the bed was needed in the Causeway Hospital, when she was admitted to the Causeway Hospital, she was moved back down to Dalriada. My father was able to visit her twice a day. He was able to talk to her and keep her company. She was in pain. She needed nursing care. She could not come home. With Alzheimer's, she did not know why she was sore. The nurses were the only ones that could move her. With no beds in the Causeway, where would she have gone if the Dalriada had not been there?"

I know that I am short of time, but he went on to conclude:

"We are a rural community, and we need our rural hospital."

The fact of the matter is that the economics and the financial case do not stack up. We know that the beds in the Causeway Hospital are starting to fill up at over £2,000 a time. The Dalriada beds are still there. They are being blocked; no admissions are being made; and they cost some £800 a time. It is a false economy. The facts are there, but they are not being presented by the Northern Trust. The Minister needs to challenge his officials —

Mitchel McLaughlin (Sinn Féin, South Antrim)

The Member's time is up.

Daithí McKay (Sinn Féin, North Antrim)

He needs to challenge the trust, and he needs to robustly challenge the agenda —

Mitchel McLaughlin (Sinn Féin, South Antrim)

I call Mr Fearghal McKinney.

Daithí McKay (Sinn Féin, North Antrim)

— that is being put forward by the Northern Trust.

Fearghal McKinney (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast South)

I welcome the opportunity to join those supporting the Dal campaign and welcome them to the Public Gallery. I support the motion calling on the Health Minister to reverse the Northern Trust's decision.

I was delighted to see the strength of support here at Stormont last week. I think that all parties joined those who campaigned and brought those 20,000 signatures to Stormont. I also attended the Bushmills rally last Tuesday; it was packed to the gills. It is clear that the facility is prized and valued by those who use it and the local community, and it has political backing. It provides high-level care for people with MS. We must recognise the extent to which that illness puts severe pressure and demands on the individual and their family. Respite provision there is all the more important, as is a respite centre of excellence.

It is important to look at the context of what has happened. We all know that the health service is under severe pressure and that there are financial pressures; we have to be mature about those things. However, it is how cuts are being administered that is a real concern. The House will be aware, and I have reminded it many times, of the plan at the heart of the health service — Transforming Your Care (TYC). Given the context of TYC, which is putting care into the community, you might think that facilities like this would be the last to be cut and that people would start to think in the long term.

I have listened to the new head of the Health and Social Care Board. While these have been described as temporary cuts, nothing that was said in a recent interview with her convinced me that some of these will not end up being longer-term cuts. The picture presented in Ballycastle is being replicated in Bangor, Armagh and Down. Services that have the potential to take the weight off the more expensive side are being cut, as I said, in a short-term context. We are also concerned that they are being cut against the backdrop of trusts' bottom lines.

John Dallat (Social Democratic and Labour Party, East Londonderry)

Will the Member give way?

Fearghal McKinney (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast South)

I will.

John Dallat (Social Democratic and Labour Party, East Londonderry)

Does the Member agree that Members cannot possibly sit on their hands and allow the most vulnerable people in society to have their rights taken away from them? Given that this is a week in which the Assembly has got bad publicity, is there a golden opportunity, this morning, to send out a positive message to wider society? I am sorry that the Minister is grinning, because I am not grinning. I have been at the public meetings —

Mitchel McLaughlin (Sinn Féin, South Antrim)

Through the Chair.

John Dallat (Social Democratic and Labour Party, East Londonderry)

— and I know the feeling in north Antrim. Does the Member agree that there is an opportunity, this morning, to send out a message from the Assembly that we really care for those who need our help?

Mitchel McLaughlin (Sinn Féin, South Antrim)

The Member has an extra minute. I remind the House that all remarks should be made through the Chair. I will insist on that.

Fearghal McKinney (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast South)

I thank the Member for his very helpful intervention. Mr Dallat's pedigree in promoting rights is well established. We understand that in the terms of rights and in the terms of caring. We need to ask questions about TYC. Are any of these plans consistent with TYC? What longer-term impact will they have on TYC ambitions? Where is the consistency in trusts' decision-making?

I have a paper on how the Department understands it will take on unscheduled care. It is based on the views of the Regulation and Quality Improvement Authority (RQIA). What does the RQIA say about the need for trusts' decision-making processes to be improved?

The paper talks of the need for better regional coordination, better information-sharing between trusts, better planning across and between trusts, and a clear strategic vision set by the Minister. Coordination, better sharing, better planning and a vision — can the Minister please tell the House where those ambitions are in terms of these cuts? It looks as if we will have one plan that aims to streamline things and which has a forward-looking and long-term ambition at its core, and another short-term plan that will undermine that.

There is another plan, and, once again, it is a contradiction. Apparently, according to the Minister last week, in a specific answer to our leader Dr Alasdair McDonnell, there was little danger that any of the trust's decision-making was going to impact on the centre, but they found £5 million. The Minister said:

"I hope that the extra £5 million that has been allocated will assure the Member that that will not happen." — [Official Report, Vol 99, No 5, p25, col 1].

The question had been about whether one trust decision would impact on others. So, they found extra money. Could they not take some of that extra money and give it to the trusts and allow the longer-term plan to continue?

Maeve McLaughlin (Sinn Féin, Foyle)

I thank the Member for giving way. Does the Member agree that the Minister should instruct and stand over the trust to conduct full impact assessments on these very basic front-line services?

Fearghal McKinney (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast South)

I thank the Member for the intervention. I do not know whether we will have time for that. I think that the Minister needs to make an announcement today that he will stop the cuts. The individuals who find themselves vulnerable, with their back against the sea in Ballycastle, have thrown themselves in the courts of public opinion and political opinion, and they have substantial support in both. Minister, please stop these cuts.

Kieran McCarthy (Alliance, Strangford)

I fully support the comments made by Fearghal McKinney. On behalf of the Alliance Party, I support the motion. Any proposed reduction in health service provision for our community causes real concern. It is right and proper that the community and elected representatives speak up loud and clear in the hope that officials in the Department get the message.

The closure or, indeed, temporary closure, as we have been told, of the excellent facility is, on the surface, a reflection of the in-year financial pressures that continue to be experienced by the Department of Health, notwithstanding the generous reallocation of budgets to the Department through the June and October monitoring rounds. The fact that the situation has arisen raises questions regarding the financial management or mismanagement and planning over the last few years and begs questions over the future sustainability of the health budget in coming years.

As has already been said, over 4,000 people across Northern Ireland suffer from multiple sclerosis. Respite to give some essential support to carers is absolutely vital. I note that this is a regional facility offering a service to all the people of Northern Ireland. We hope that the Northern Trust can find the shortfall to keep Dalriada open, given that we are only talking about £600,000. However, it appears that the trust has very little room for manoeuvre.

If any immediate salvation is to come, it is more likely that the resources can be found from the Department. I acknowledge the situation that the Department finds itself it, but if there was an epidemic, God forbid, in the morning, I can assure you that the Department would find whatever money it would take to get on top of that. We acknowledge that it will not be easy given the pressures that the Department is under, but we must make an effort.

Many questions have been asked about what will happen from April 2015 onwards. Surely, there is greater scope to restore funding in that context. That, in turn, begs the question: what wider reforms or savings can be undertaken to ensure provision of resources for Dalriada Hospital's regional multiple sclerosis respite centre? Reaction against the closure has been strong, and rightly so. I believe that it is a combination of the loss of the facility and a scepticism over the reliability of the alternative provision offered. That is an ever-increasing concern with respect to Transforming Your Care.

The Transforming Your Care document is the journey that we are all on. We have supported it up until now. It is a fundamentally sound policy intention, but it has been undermined in the absence of a significant and transparent transfer of resources into community provision and primary care.

John McCallister (UUP, South Down)

Will the Member give way?

Kieran McCarthy (Alliance, Strangford)

I will at the end, John, if I have time. I believe that there is a requirement for the new Minister to give a clear sense of direction as to how he intends to strategically plan and manage the future provision of health and social care as we move forward.

We know that the available resources are not going to keep pace with the growing levels of demand. Therefore, some tough and radical decisions will have to be taken in relation to ensuring that there are efficiencies and less waste throughout the entire health service. That will entail a stronger focus on public health and primary care and on ensuring that resources are invested in the community and in a consolidated acute service provision. That should free up resources to ensure the long-term sustainability of the MS respite centre at Dalriada, which should continue to provide that service, for which demand will only increase.

Every Member will be aware of how crucial respite care and respite breaks are for MS patients and, indeed, their carers. It is simply a lifeline that contributes to the well-being of all concerned. Without respite provision, MS patients can experience declining health, which inevitably leads to costly hospital admissions. That is exactly the opposite of what Transforming Your Care advocates. Surely the officers at the Northern Trust and, indeed, the Minister, who is with us today, must appreciate that cutting this respite facility will lead to much more being spent, because MS patients will be admitted to hospital. Let us retain Dalriada. It simply makes sense.

Paul Frew (DUP, North Antrim)

I support the motion and, indeed, the wider campaign. It has been an absolutely tremendous campaign that has not been fought by one union against another or managed by one union but managed by the people. It has been managed by the people of Ballycastle, the northern glens area, Rathlin Island and everywhere in between, coming right down into the very heart of Ballymoney, Limavady, Coleraine and much further afield.

When you look at the tremendous campaign on Facebook and Twitter, you will see that this issue has gone global. It has gone to the very western shore of the United States and even to the Middle East and further afield. That is because people genuinely support Dalriada Hospital. The people of Ballycastle and the other areas know exactly what Dalriada means to them and to their community. Make sure, Minister, that, when these decisions are made and the trusts put forward propositions like this, there is not simply a closure and that is the end of it. I am still hearing on the doorsteps of Ballymena that we lost provision in that town to Antrim. I still get that at the doors in my constituency. It will hurt for generations if this hospital is to disappear.

There are challenges in the health service. There is no denying that. Those challenges have not been helped — let us face it; my colleague Mervyn Storey raised it — by people in the Chamber campaigning for Tory cuts or by Members of parties in the Chamber campaigning on, holding back or delaying agreement on in-year monitoring and Budgets. But we are where we are. Let me say that the campaign has been fought with the parties all fighting and singing from the same hymn sheet. Can I just —

David McNarry (UKIP, Strangford)

I thank the Member for giving way. Let me tell him that, in Strangford, we too very much support the Dalriada campaign. My question to him is this: does he agree with me that what is happening in Dalriada is causing great worry and concern to carers throughout every constituency in Northern Ireland because of the respite problem? Does he also agree that if Dalriada can be fixed, there will be great relief to carers throughout the country?

Mitchel McLaughlin (Sinn Féin, South Antrim)

The Member has an extra minute.

Paul Frew (DUP, North Antrim)

Thank you, Mr Principal Deputy Speaker, and I thank the Member for his intervention. It is a valid point that I will come to very shortly.

The parties have worked well together — some more than others. Nonetheless, every party has done its own thing and has played its part in this campaign. At every public meeting, rally and protest, we have been united because we know how important this facility is for MS respite to our people and to wider Northern Ireland. It is clear that, throughout many years, the trust not only failed to promote the unit but actively engaged in demotion. That is the problem that we face: the actions and agendas of the Northern Trust. That is the case in not only this sphere of health but all spheres.

There is no doubt in my mind that social workers have been told not to mention Dalriada and not to refer patients to Dalriada. I have no doubt that doctors, GPs, surgeons and other specialists have been told, "Do not mention Dalriada. Do not write letters of support. Do not mention Dalriada at public meetings. Do not mention it at all". They have been gagged by the Northern Trust, Minister.

In my opinion, the actions of the Northern Trust have been anti-health, and that is no reflection on the specialists in our hospitals at the side of patients' beds. They do tremendous work under great pressure, but their organisation fails them day in, day out. It is failing the patients in those beds. When will the trust stop talking about the empty beds and start caring about the people in the beds, who need tremendous care and support? Is it right to send people aged between 30 and 40 with MS to residential homes to be in the company of people in their 70s, 80s and 90s? I say no. This is exactly what we want: we want specialisms in one place to care for the people who suffer —

Fearghal McKinney (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast South)

Will the Member give way?

Paul Frew (DUP, North Antrim)

Yes, I will.

Fearghal McKinney (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast South)

Can the Member point to any effective costings that have been put forward for the alternative provision?

Paul Frew (DUP, North Antrim)

That is a very valid point. The trust's figures do not even add up. Even when we look at the figures — let us keep this very basic — the cost of a bed in the Causeway is £2,000, as my colleague across the way Daithí McKay mentioned, while in Dalriada it is £800. That economy has to be looked at and scrutinised, and the trust has to be scrutinised for its figures —

Mitchel McLaughlin (Sinn Féin, South Antrim)

The Member's time is up.

Paul Frew (DUP, North Antrim)

— and how it uses its money. Thank you for my time, Mr Deputy Principal Speaker. I support Dalriada Hospital 100%.

Maeve McLaughlin (Sinn Féin, Foyle)

I preface my remarks by saying that health was protected. In fact, we were quite central to its protection. Do we need more? Of course we need more, but we should reflect on the fact that £200 million was allocated to health, and it was the only Department that was protected. Hard decisions have to be taken, and we need to know whether the budget goes in the right direction. There are many, many questions around the current spend in health. I welcome the opportunity to support the motion, because the decision to close the facility is, at the very best, short-sighted and, at the very worst, counterproductive.

Sammy Wilson (DUP, East Antrim)

I thank the Member for giving way. I am glad that she has recognised that priority was given by the Executive and the Assembly to the health budget. She said that the important thing is whether the money is going in the right direction. That is a question that we need to ask. Does she have any suggestions to make about the incorrect way in which money has been allocated and where the Minister ought to look for the savings that would enable the issue to be dealt with?

Maeve McLaughlin (Sinn Féin, Foyle)

I thank the Member for his intervention. Quite simply, the answer is yes. When Members and those in the wider world look at scenarios in which £34 million goes to senior consultants as bonuses, when they reflect on the fact that between £55 million and £65 million goes to the independent sector every year and when they consider the fraud and waste that the former Health Minister by his own admission acknowledged, they will see that spend is clearly going in the wrong direction.

I return to the point that this decision is counterproductive. It is counterproductive because it is contrary to the very vision and implementation of the Transforming Your Care agenda. The Health Minister stated in the Chamber:

"The decisions that I have to take are not long term and strategic". — [Official Report, Vol 99, No 1, p45, col 1].

How can decisions that are not strategic provide better health outcomes for patients and families across the North?

The Northern Trust has indicated that it will save £600,000 from the closure of beds in Dalriada. That is a mere drop in the ocean when we look at the current spend on health. As has been stated by a number of Members, the MS regional unit at the Dalriada Hospital is the only dedicated respite unit across the North, and, as Members have said, it provides much-needed support and specialist care — that has been acknowledged — that enables people suffering from MS to have an enjoyable and, importantly, a safe, short break. It is important to reflect on the fact that 75% of people with MS in the North of Ireland receive unpaid care. That is an important commentary. The cost of carers to the economy in the North of Ireland is £4·4 billion. The respite unit is an essential service, as has been well documented, and it allows MS sufferers and carers to receive that specialist care, which, in turn, importantly, enables them to continue to live independently. Again, that is a key component of the Transforming Your Care agenda.

Last week, we debated a motion to ensure that full equality impact assessments are carried out. I accept that the motion today calls for the reversal of this decision. That is right and proper, but the Minister also has a duty to ensure that local trusts are following his direction in terms of the protection of front-line services. That motion was not passed in the House. How then can the Department advocate the protection of front-line services when trusts are cutting the very services that are needed to protect and deliver those functions? Last week, the Minister announced, in response to a question from me, that £18 million will be allocated through the monitoring round to deal with trust pressures. I suggest that there is an alternative: use that money to ensure that the Dalriada facility remains open and that the important respite care for patients and families continues. Go raibh maith agat.

David McIlveen (DUP, North Antrim)

The problem with speaking late in a debate is that most of what can be said has been said. There is little that I can add. I support entirely the comments that have been made by Members who spoke previously in support of the very important facility in Dalriada.

In the strongest possible terms, I echo some of the words condemning the actions of the trust in this regard. I believe sincerely that the Northern Trust has been found wanting in the way in which this whole sorry scenario has been handled. I say that for three reasons. First, the Minister's point is well made, and I accept entirely that, when there is a reduction in middle management in any trust, it will take at least three years to absorb any savings that come from that. However, five months into the existing Conservative/Liberal Democrat coalition, George Osborne was very clear that there would be cuts across all the devolved regions of the United Kingdom. Therefore, in my view, the Northern Trust has had four years to put its house in order but has failed to do so. It is entirely unfair that the pressure that is now being placed on our community is being done at this late stage, when there was plenty of advance notice for the trust to deal with that and to put its house in order.

Leslie Cree (UUP, North Down)

I thank the Member for giving way. He makes a valid point. In the case of Bangor and the South Eastern Trust, we were told that four months was not enough to plan a strategic action. In fact, it was admitted to be non-strategic. We now know that the budget figures were known in summer 2013 and that nothing was done until summer 2014. Perhaps the Minister could comment on that.

Mitchel McLaughlin (Sinn Féin, South Antrim)

The Member has an extra minute.

David McIlveen (DUP, North Antrim)

I thank the Member for his intervention, and I am sure that the Minister will respond to that.

The second reason why I am extremely critical of the trust is its handling of the release of this information. I received a press release, along with all Members I am sure, on 30 October this year. I do not want it to appear in any way that this side of the House is backing its Minister and the other side of the House can take a pop at him. That is not what it is about. This transcends politics, and we have to stand shoulder-to-shoulder with the people we represent and their needs. There is absolutely no ambiguity in the press release about who was proposing the change of services in Dalriada.

The trust chief executive, Dr Tony Stevens, said:

"We have delivered substantial year on year savings ... We remain focused on minimising the impact on frontline services ... In order to achieve this, temporary service changes will be put in place in non-acute hospitals that will allow staff to be redeployed to the acute hospitals sites."

There is absolutely no ambiguity around where the proposals came from. They came from the trust and the chief executive. Indeed, it is on the written record that that is the case.

Stewart Dickson (Alliance, East Antrim)

Will the Member give way?

David McIlveen (DUP, North Antrim)

I am sorry; I will try to do so at the end, Stewart, if there is time.

The third reason that I am critical of the trust is that it sought to overrule a previous ministerial decision. I have a letter dated 18 April 2014 that was sent to me about a constituent I was working with in relation to respite services in the Dal. The letter told me that all purchased bed days and respite bookings have been honoured and will continue to be honoured in the facility — not in the Northern Trust but in the facility, meaning Dalriada, which the original letter related to. However, we were told later on, in the press release of 30 October, that the multiple sclerosis respite centre would also temporarily close from 30 November 2014.

It is my understanding that there are purchased beds in place until the middle of February at least for MS respite care, so the view of Dr Tony Stevens in that press release entirely contradicts what the Minister told me in April this year.

Jim Allister (Traditional Unionist Voice, North Antrim)

Will the Member give way?

David McIlveen (DUP, North Antrim)

Jim, I will try to give time at the end if I can.

I have to say that there is little trust in the north Antrim area towards the Northern Trust at this moment in time. Therefore, I propose and would like to see a root-and-branch review of Dalriada Hospital that is independent of the Northern Trust and is based on figures from before 30 October this year.

There is a sign as you drive down the main A26 that states, in very simple terms, "Don't let the Dal die". From the day and minute that the press release was issued, that is what the Northern Trust started to do, in my view. It started to let the Dal die. It failed to allow any new admissions, and therefore, on that basis, there is very little trust in what the Northern Trust is telling us.

I will conclude very quickly. The point was made about how good it is to have a devolved Minister. I ask the Minister to comment on how many people have made use of our devolved Minister since the press release. How many people have actually spoken to him about it?

Oliver McMullan (Sinn Féin, East Antrim)

Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. For over 20 years I represented the glens area on Moyle Council, and in that time I have seen at least three attempts to close the MS centre at the Dalriada. This is nothing new. This is a sustained attack on the unit. When the latest one came about, it was no surprise to me, but I have to give credit to the campaign that is being waged by the people of Ballycastle, the glens, the whole countryside and those who are in the Public Gallery today.

What we are seeing today is a campaign driven by the trust on budget. It is not patient-driven at all. The question I have to ask today is this: who exactly is running the trust? Is it you, Minister, or is the trust dictating to you the terms of what it does? I had a meeting with Tony Stevens here yesterday afternoon.

I asked him to put to an end the campaign to stop the closure of the Dalriada, and he told me that he took the advice of his management. Management told him that, in a strategic plan, somewhere had to close to balance the books, and its advice was to close the Dalriada. This is budget-driven not patient-driven. Out of your budget of millions, you cannot find £500,000. As my party colleague the Chair of the Health Committee, Maeve McLaughlin, said, of the £18 million that has been given to you, £500,000 could be found to keep the Dalriada going.

Stewart Dickson (Alliance, East Antrim)

I really appreciate the Member giving way. Mr McMullan referred to the statements made by the trust about the issue and the relatively small sum required to continue to deliver the service. The words "temporary closure" were used in the press statement. "Temporary" is Civil Service-speak for final closure; let us get that on the record as well. These people will not just be making this a temporary break. They intend to close the facility.

Mitchel McLaughlin (Sinn Féin, South Antrim)

The Member has an extra minute.

Oliver McMullan (Sinn Féin, East Antrim)

I totally agree with the Member. He is quite right, and I was coming to that point. When the closure was made, it was made on a temporary basis. Why? It was so that there would be no consultation on it, because it is temporary. When I asked the chief executive yesterday to carry out a full equality impact assessment and consultation on the provision, the answer was a stark no. However, when the Dalriada is closed, the trust will then embark on a consultation on the provision of health care in the Northern Trust. He wants to split the trust into four hubs of excellence, after closing a unit of excellence.

Shame on you, Minister, and shame on the trust. Your whole thing is to care for the patient, not to be driven by a budget; £500,000 could be found in your budget. Why are you doing this? Why is the chief executive taking the word of his management without a plan having been drawn up? Where is the consultation? The Member for North Antrim Mr Storey quite rightly said that we come to the Chamber to make very hard decisions on budgets — quite rightly. However, at least all the decisions that we make on cuts and budgets go through a consultation period. In this decision, we are not allowed that. We are given the temporary closure and told that a consultation will then be embarked on. How is that fair?

Members of the MS Society have bared their soul and told us about some of the most difficult parts of their life to fight for this unit. Last week, when the deputy First Minister received a deputation from the MS Society, Mrs Philomena McKay, from Cushendun in my constituency, said to Mr McGuinness, with tears in her eyes, that her husband is more like a carer to her than a husband because of what is happening today. Is that where we are going? Health is being driven by a budget. When we put out Transforming Your Care, health was to be the priority, yet you do the very opposite. Minister, I put this to you: do you control the trust? In answer to Mr Swann at the start of the debate, you said that you did not know, but the trust is saying something different.

Mitchel McLaughlin (Sinn Féin, South Antrim)

Thank you. The Member's time is up.

Oliver McMullan (Sinn Féin, East Antrim)

Somebody is telling lies.

Alasdair McDonnell (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast South)

I am delighted to be able to take a few moments to discuss the temporary closure of the Dalriada Hospital. I must say that this is a habit that has happened repeatedly. We have temporary closures, without consultation, that become permanent; that trick has been used right across the health service.

I do not condemn or attack the Minister or his predecessor. We have to be very clear about this; we must be united. I reflect on the very wise and sensible speech that our colleague seated across the Chamber, Paul Frew, made on the issue. The Assembly needs to be united in resisting the closure and the plans of the Northern Trust.

Dalriada Hospital has served the Ballycastle and district community very well in many shapes and forms over 50 years. I remember it opening with great aplomb when I was a child. It did an excellent job as a community hospital. In recent years, influenced by changing trends and demands, it became a vital resource, both as a respite space for MS patients from a wide area and as a step-down or intermediate-care facility — a halfway house, if you like — for those who did not need to be in a high-cost acute hospital bed but who still needed some degree of low-intensity hospital care. Much of that was appropriate for people recovering from orthopaedic surgery.

It was always, and still is, a great example of how Transforming Your Care could work and should have been allowed to work; it was a great pilot project launched with great gusto as a flagship for Transforming Your Care and its ethos. Yet, all my information is that the Northern Trust strangled and smothered it; the trust did not want to sell it or promote the project. Social workers, medical and paramedical people who could have encouraged and promoted the facility were told to keep quiet and turn a blind eye.

For many with whom I talked last week the question is: where will the patients go for respite? MS patients have a difficult enough struggle and life without making it any more difficult. Where will patients who require intermediate-care beds go? Will they remain in high-cost beds in the Causeway Hospital or wherever else? This is a flawed, knee-jerk decision by the Northern Health and Social Care Trust that will have a massive impact on patient care.

John Dallat (Social Democratic and Labour Party, East Londonderry)

Will the Member give way?

Alasdair McDonnell (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast South)

Yes.

John Dallat (Social Democratic and Labour Party, East Londonderry)

The Member has appealed for unity across the Floor, and I totally agree with him. Does he agree that, if the Minister were to reverse this decision, he would unite the Assembly in a way that it probably has not been united in recent times? I put that question to Dr McDonnell as a medical doctor and also as a person who was reared in the glens of Antrim and who knows the immense feeling of the people in that area.

Mitchel McLaughlin (Sinn Féin, South Antrim)

The Member has an extra minute.

Alasdair McDonnell (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast South)

Thank you, Mr Principal Deputy Speaker. I thank the Member for his intervention. As someone who grew up not very far away and who is familiar with the Dalriada Hospital, I certainly agree with him. The passion, emotion and commitment that I felt from the deputation that was here last week was palpable. It knew neither political nor religious boundaries, nor any others. People were united, and I feel that the community campaign has made it very clear how detrimental this cut will be, not just to Ballycastle but to a much wider area in terms of MS respite. They must all bear the brunt of the situation that the closure of the Dalriada Hospital would bring about.

As far as I am concerned, it is a cut too far, and I appeal to the Minister, as my colleague suggested, to find some other option on this occasion and reverse the decision of the Northern Trust. He would unite the community.

I commend my colleague, the chairman of Moyle District Council, Donal Cunningham, and others around him, for the tremendous campaign that he has led and orchestrated along with the broader community. They have my full and unequivocal support, and indeed the support of much of north Antrim.

I am gravely concerned that we will have other occasions like this. The draft Budget has a very detrimental effect on front-line services. I think that we will have to move and take every effort to protect front-line health-care services. While savings and efficiencies are necessary, patient care needs to be protected as well.

Mitchel McLaughlin (Sinn Féin, South Antrim)

The Member must bring his remarks to a close.

Alasdair McDonnell (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast South)

Benefits could be gained from many other options. I talked about all-island options for saving money. We are aware that the cost of health-care provision has risen.

Mitchel McLaughlin (Sinn Féin, South Antrim)

The Member's time is up.

Alasdair McDonnell (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast South)

I appeal to the Minister to recognise the reduced cost of Dalriada and how it would help to save money.

Mitchel McLaughlin (Sinn Féin, South Antrim)

The Member's time is up. I want to call the next Member.

Michael McGimpsey (UUP, Belfast South)

I appreciate that I have limited space to speak. First of all, of course, I support the motion. MS is a cruel and merciless condition. We need to do whatever we can to alleviate the situation for patients and sufferers. A reasonable service for this condition at Dalriada was one of the remedies that we had.

I have to say, however, that this situation was predictable. The result of a Budget that was voted through this House three and a half years ago by many of the people who have been on their feet speaking today is that not enough money has been put into the health and social care budget to run the service. That was clearly demonstrated. The Budget was actually a real-terms cut of 2·4%. This is just part of a general malaise in the health service. We have seen that year after year, whether it be the pressures in A&Es, pressures on waits or closures at Bangor, Whiteabbey and Armagh.

We can all talk about these difficulties that we are having. This House has to be prepared to fund the health and social care Department and fund properly the Northern Trust. I do not blame the Northern Trust or any of the trusts for the steps that they are taking. They do not have enough money to run the services that they have now. We can all point at efficiencies. We can all say, "Save money here, save money there", but the Northern Trust does not have an adequate budget to adequately provide services so that —

Mitchel McLaughlin (Sinn Féin, South Antrim)

Thank you. I must call the Minister now. The time has been set by the Business Committee.

Jim Wells (DUP, South Down)

Thank you, Mr Principal Deputy Speaker. First of all, I want to say that I may not be as liberal with taking interventions as I might normally be, because I have an important point to make at the end of this particular contribution.

I thank the community and the Save the Dal campaign on the north coast for the understanding and respect that they have shown for me. I have absolutely no argument whatsoever with the way in which I have been treated. I appreciate that, in a situation where of course they feel exceptionally strongly about the issue.

I have listened carefully to Members' contributions throughout the debate. I want to say to Mr Dallat that I apologise if I did smile during the middle of a contribution. I take this issue terribly seriously. I dare not tell him how many sleepless hours I have had over this particular decision; this decision has been exceptionally problematic for me.

I much regret that the Northern Trust has had to consider this action as a consequence of budget pressures. No one in this entire debate has told me that we do not need an extra £70 million to balance the books or that we do not have to save that money. The difficulty is that I am not getting any options on the £70 million or the decision on the Dalriada.

The pressures facing health and social care were substantial in 2013-14 and included a wide range of services, such as domiciliary care, acute services, safety and quality, emergency department unscheduled care and children's services. Since summer 2013, the Department has explored and implemented opportunities to curtail and control this expenditure.

As I have said before, my priorities are to ensure that the services provided by health and social care trusts are safe and effective and that my Department achieves financial balance, as is required of all Ministers. To achieve these aims, health and social care trusts have provided a range of contingency plans to secure financial break-even, which is an obligation that is required of all Ministers. I have to be absolutely clear here: I asked the trust to come up with a series of savings, and it gave me a list. I did not make a choice on those savings. I was given a list that it believed was necessary.

Robin Swann (UUP, North Antrim)

I appreciate the Minister giving way. I know that he said that he is generous with his time. Will he clarify with the chief executive of the Northern Trust the process that he outlined to me and members of the Ulster Unionist Party yesterday? He said that he made recommendations to the trust, which gave them to the Department, which gave them to the Minister, and they then came back down the chain again.

Jim Wells (DUP, South Down)

I assure you that I did not have other options to consider. It was not a question of me picking out Dalriada in preference to taking some other difficult decision. I was given enough money to make the savings, and that was that.

The temporary closure of the respite beds and intermediate care beds in Dalriada Hospital will result in a significant saving of £0·6 million. Should the measure be proposed to be made permanent, I have been explicit that a full consultation exercise will be carried out.

The Northern Trust has affirmed that it will endeavour to minimise the impact on front-line patient care. It is important to note that everyone who wishes to receive respite care will continue to do so. The trust is committed to continuing to meet people's assessed need appropriately. However, it believes that it can be more cost-effectively provided elsewhere. Alternatives being discussed include direct payments, local independent sector provision for individuals or local bed-based group provision to facilitate groups of friends. In the case of individuals assessed as requiring respite care in a hospital setting, arrangements are being made to assess the Robinson Hospital in Ballymoney. In-reach services provided to service users while they receive respite at Dalriada, such as podiatry, dentistry and physiotherapy, will continue to be provided in the alternative setting decided on.

The trust provided an assurance that there will be no change to the booking of anyone who had been booked into respite care in November. That commitment will be honoured. I acknowledge and appreciate the commendable service that the MS respite centre provides for service users and their families.

Jim Allister (Traditional Unionist Voice, North Antrim)

Will the Minister give way?

Jim Wells (DUP, South Down)

I certainly will.

Jim Allister (Traditional Unionist Voice, North Antrim)

Is the Minister saying to the House that the trust, of which he has oversight, proposed the closure — I think that we all know that it is closure, not a temporary discontinuation — of the Dalriada without knowing or, it seems, caring where the services then provided there would thereafter be provided and is only now scrambling around to look for alternatives? Does that not say to the Minister that he should reach the point now — today — of overriding the decision to close the Dalriada?

Jim Wells (DUP, South Down)

It is worth mentioning that the demand for respite care in the winter period is extremely low. At the time of the decision, only one person was booked in for the second part of November. The next peak of demand was not until February. The trust officials were content that there was easily capacity in the north Antrim area to meet that demand. It is not a matter of scuttling around trying to find alternative provision. As it turned out, there was time and there was capacity.

Oliver McMullan (Sinn Féin, East Antrim)

Will the Minister give way?

Jim Wells (DUP, South Down)

For the final time.

Oliver McMullan (Sinn Féin, East Antrim)

Will you now state that the trust came to you with the strategic view of closing either the Dalriada or the Robinson, and that the trust opted to close the former in favour of the latter, which is not what was said to me yesterday in a meeting between Sinn Féin and the trust's new chief executive, Dr Tony Stevens?

Jim Wells (DUP, South Down)

I have no doubt that, when the board was discussing the issue, other options were considered, maybe even the Robinson, but by the time that the decision got to me, there were not options. I was given a list of what the trust, in its professional judgement, considered to be the best option for saving the money. I have no doubt that the Member could well be right, but the list that I have does not include an either/or. It simply states, "Dalriada".

Most of those — 80% — who access MS respite services at Dalriada come from the Northern Trust , with the remainder predominantly coming from the Western Trust. There are also two users from Belfast. The other trusts have already made alternative arrangements. In 2013-14 — I mentioned this when answering a question from Mr Swann during a Question Time — the number of bed days available was 4,380. Of those, 1,402 were used. That equates to a 32% occupancy rate. That is worrying, because it indicates that, whilst the standard of care is very high, the demand is not as pervasive as Members suggest.

Kieran McCarthy (Alliance, Strangford)

Will the Minister give way?

Jim Wells (DUP, South Down)

I will try at the end, but I really have to get to the end of the speech. Members will understand when I do so.

Demand in the unit tends to peak at certain times, such as in February and during the summer months. That means that, at other times, the unit has a very low occupancy rate. Members have to accept that. I am advised that, today, there will be two patients remaining in the MS unit in Dalriada Hospital and seven receiving intermediate care. I make it absolutely clear that none of those patients will be required to leave unless it is clinically appropriate to do so. There is no cut-off date on 30 November. If someone requires clinical or respite care at that date, they will continue in the Dalriada.

It is anticipated that half of the employees associated with the Dalriada site may be affected. Permanent staff will be redeployed to support acute community and emergency services. No staff — and I emphasise this — will lose their jobs, and the hours they work will remain as per their contract. There are a number of jobs in the Causeway locality and the personnel, staff and services managers are currently on the ground, working with staff to match their skills to vacancies available and to ensure that, as far as possible, individual circumstances are taken into account.

Following the announcement, the Northern Trust contacted MS service users and families from the northern area and advised them of the decision. Relevant key workers are currently meeting patients to discuss options for their future respite care. The trust also linked with the Western and Belfast Trusts regarding this change. Trust senior management attended Dalriada Hospital on Thursday 30 October and spoke with patients and staff.

Personnel staff continue to work on the ground to help and advise those staff affected. The trust will continue to meet and discuss redeployment options with those staff. The trust communicated with trade unions on 30 October and formally met with them on Friday 31 October. The trust also continued to communicate with all political representatives in the area and met Moyle council representatives on 3 November and attended a public meeting that same evening.

Ongoing communication is taking place between the trust and the MS Society and, of course, the media. The trust will continue to do all it can to communicate with all stakeholders to ensure that everyone understands the decision and the options now available to them. I have met the MS Society, elected representatives, health professionals and members of the Ballycastle community. I visited Dalriada Hospital on Friday. I met Tony Stevens of the Northern Trust to discuss this issue on 13 November.

Mr Speaker, I have listened to the widespread concerns expressed by patients and families about the potential adverse impact of the temporary closure of services at Dalriada. I am very aware of the public’s dissatisfaction that patients and clients have not had an opportunity to participate in a formal consultation process on these proposals. I cannot stress enough that we also need to ensure patient safety.

However, we have four months before the end of March next year, and in view of the widespread concern, my Department will be instructing the Northern Trust to immediately begin an eight-week public consultation, as Mr McMullan requested, on this temporary closure to see whether there are alternative viable proposals that could be put in place to allow the services to reopen before the end of March.

David McIlveen (DUP, North Antrim)

I thank the Minister for giving way, and I certainly welcome what he has just said. In the knowledge that there is a severe breach of confidence between the public in the Ballycastle and wider north Antrim area and the Northern Trust, could the Minister give some assurances that there will be an element of independence to this consultation to ensure that there is a fair outcome rather than one predetermined by the trust?

Jim Wells (DUP, South Down)

Mr McIlveen raises an important point, and I would be happy to look into that issue and address the points he has raised.

Peter Weir (DUP, North Down)

Will the Minister further give way?

Jim Wells (DUP, South Down)

Yes.

Peter Weir (DUP, North Down)

A lot of us have grave concerns over the priorities that have been given by different trusts, and in my case, particularly the South Eastern Trust as regards Bangor. If there are alternative proposals — certainly in our case, some of us are working to save the money in-year — and these can be accepted by the trust, will the Minister indicate that there will be no obstacle put by himself or the Department in the way of those alternative proposals that allow places to stay open or reopen in various areas?

Jim Wells (DUP, South Down)

I would be absolutely delighted if Members or the community or those who are experts in this field provide viable alternatives. But I have to make a very important point. They must release an equivalent amount of saving to what is being achieved by the decisions —

Maeve McLaughlin (Sinn Féin, Foyle)

Will the Minister give way?

Jim Wells (DUP, South Down)

OK.

Maeve McLaughlin (Sinn Féin, Foyle)

Go raibh maith agat. I thank the Minister for, maybe reluctantly, giving way. Can the Minister clarify that during the eight-week public consultation, which some might say is a bit late, admissions will continue?

Jim Wells (DUP, South Down)

I need to make the point that there will be no fresh admissions but that those who are already in the hospital will continue to receive the care that they require until they are clinically assessed and allowed to leave — in other words, as if this decision had never been made. Any alternative, viable proposals —

Jim Allister (Traditional Unionist Voice, North Antrim)

Will the Minister give way?

Jim Wells (DUP, South Down)

Oh dear.

Jim Allister (Traditional Unionist Voice, North Antrim)

Does the Minister not agree that, if this is to be a fair and transparently fair consultation, the status quo should prevail rather than the pre-emptive decision to close, which suggests that the consultation will only be a farce? If this consultation is to be genuine, does he not need to restore the Dalriada to its position as an active, operative hospital?

Jim Wells (DUP, South Down)

The only proposal that I am making is that there will be no new admissions — no new admissions. Those who are there already will continue to be cared for up until the point at which they would have been moved on as if this decision had never occurred — in other words, in line with medical assessment.

Any alternative proposals that are suggested in the responses to the consultation must release broadly equivalent resource savings that, in the view of clinicians, would provide services safely in terms of the impact of the proposal on the quality, sustainability and accessibility of services, and provide assurance about adherence to established standards of service.

Stewart Dickson (Alliance, East Antrim)

Will the Minister give way?

Jim Wells (DUP, South Down)

No, I simply have to finish this. I am sorry, Mr Dickson.

The door is now open for the public to have their say — albeit within a tight timescale, as I believe that the deadline will probably be around 31 January — with a clear prospect that the envisaged four-month temporary closure of these services could potentially come to an end sooner. My Department will monitor the situation closely over the coming weeks to ensure that the service provided to MS sufferers in Northern Ireland continues to meet the needs of the local population.

I can now give way to Mr Dickson.

Stewart Dickson (Alliance, East Antrim)

Thank you, Minister. I am concerned about any consultation process. You made an announcement that you are prepared to extend an open consultation process for eight weeks. Is that not window dressing to cover up the embarrassment of the trust and the Minister?

Mitchel McLaughlin (Sinn Féin, South Antrim)

The Minister's time is almost up.

Jim Wells (DUP, South Down)

Can I make it absolutely certain that we are taking this consultation extremely seriously? The community now has time to put forward its views on what it feels are the defects of this decision and to provide suggestions for an alternative. This will be taken seriously; the Member has my commitment on that.

Daithí McKay (Sinn Féin, North Antrim)

Will the Minister give way?

Jim Wells (DUP, South Down)

I just have time for Mr McKay.

Daithí McKay (Sinn Féin, North Antrim)

What will happen to the staff for those eight weeks?

Mitchel McLaughlin (Sinn Féin, South Antrim)

I am sorry; you actually do not have time. The Minister's time is up.

Jo-Anne Dobson (UUP, Upper Bann)

I welcome the opportunity to make a winding-up speech on such an important debate. I was delighted to hear all the support from fellow MLAs. Minister, our motion calls for you to reinstate the service at the Dalriada immediately. I will start with a plea: do it, Minister, and do it now. This is an issue that, as we know, has caused so much public anger, emotion, concern and protest. Much of that has been reflected in an emotionally charged debate in the Chamber today. As John Dallat put it, this has the ability to unite us across the Floor.

I will refer to Members' comments, but, first, I will make a few comments of my own. Minister, I appreciate that difficult decisions need to be made. Frustratingly, however, whilst the funding crisis in our health service may not have been unexpected, as my colleague Mr McGimpsey said, it was avoidable. I will reiterate a point that I have been making over the last number of weeks and months. The funding void will have been known about long before it struck. It could have been avoided, but it was not, and trusts have now been forced to slash services. Members, this is where we are today.

While suggestions for cuts may indeed come from the trusts, be in no doubt that the Minister is required to give his personal approval of them. There is no question that the Minister was asked for his opinion on the Dalriada, and there is no question that he approved the closure of the respite centre. Some in the Chamber may find that hard to accept, but I ask them to speak to the Minister directly or to the trust privately. It saddens me to say that I suspect that not all the reductions that we have been told about are just as new or as recent as we are led to believe.

As we heard from Members, there have been long-standing concerns about Dalriada's future. The people for whom it provides respite and intermediate care, as well as its loyal team of staff, will have seen its value in the eyes of the trust diminish. Even its physical appearance has gone downhill.

While it is easy to comment on bricks and mortar, the real cost of the closure will be the human impact on the people who use the service, not only the 69 with MS indicated by the Minister but many hundreds more family members and carers who benefit from the relief that Dalriada provides. The many benefits of respite care, be they medical, financial or otherwise, ripple outwards from the patients to their family circle and friends. Minister, that must never be forgotten or underestimated.

Speaking to people with MS, and their carers, I am in no doubt of the importance of effective respite. It gives family members the opportunity to travel in the knowledge that their loved ones are safe and secure. The debilitating fact about MS is that symptoms come and go, robbing people of their independence to do even the most basic tasks, and leaving them to suffer the most spine-chilling level of pain.

Having a centre with the staff and skills required is a huge benefit and grants carers the precious period of respite that they so richly deserve. I know so many people coping with this condition, whom I have supported. I would be here all day if I listed their names, people who have touched my life. They would dearly love to receive respite in my constituency, but it is not available to them. I am not alone in the Chamber in representing constituents who are denied this service. Their passion is to raise public awareness of MS, to fundraise and to support fellow sufferers. They view this so-called temporary closure as a bitter blow to every MS sufferer in Northern Ireland — that is 4,200 sufferers and their families.

Yet we are being asked to believe that the service at Dalriada is no longer required and can be met through private providers who, as we stand here today, have not signed a contract. Even if a commitment is signed today, this week or next week, what guarantees are there that this respite service —

Maeve McLaughlin (Sinn Féin, Foyle)

I thank the Member for giving way. Would she now agree that what the Minister said about no new admissions is, in effect, closure in another form?

Jo-Anne Dobson (UUP, Upper Bann)

I thank the Chair of the Health Committee for her intervention. I totally agree. Yes, it is, in effect, closure.

What guarantees will be available in years to come, Minister? None. There is no long-term strategy for people living and struggling daily with a long-term debilitating condition. The reason, I suspect, it is being re-provided to the private sector is not to save money but to make sure that the service is easier to adjust and tinker with in the years to come.

Whilst Dalriada is located in the Northern Trust, it was, in theory, to be used by all. In theory. Of course, 30% bed occupancy is not good enough, but if patients were not being allowed to enter the centre in the first place or not even being told about it, it is little wonder that so few were receiving care. The fact is that the trust sought for some time to strangle the existence out of the centre.

I will turn to comments made by Members. Mervyn Storey reminded us that Terence O'Neill opened the hospital in 1963. He praised those defending the hospital as a credit to their community, and I totally agree with him. He spoke about the long-term failure to address the medical needs of the community of north Antrim.

Daithí McKay supported the motion, saying that this was decision day for the Minister. He also praised the campaign of the Save the Dal group.

Robin Swann (UUP, North Antrim)

Will the Member give way?

Jo-Anne Dobson (UUP, Upper Bann)

Yes.

Robin Swann (UUP, North Antrim)

In reflection on that, and I listened to every Back-Bencher who spoke in support of the motion, I point out to the Minister the last section of the motion, which:

"calls on the Minister of Health, Social Services and Public Safety to reverse the decision and immediately reinstate the service at Dalriada Hospital".

Some Members

Hear, hear.

Robin Swann (UUP, North Antrim)

Minister, that is the final sentence in the motion. What you have offered is an eight-week consultation on a temporary closure. You have said that the eight-week consultation will close on 31 January 2015, but, with the temporary closure forecast to last until the end of March 2015, there is potential for a gap of 59 days. Knowing the decision-making speed of the trust, the Department and the Health and Social Care Board, by the time they even get round to opening the consultation on the temporary closure, the decision will have been made and you will have closed Dalriada.

Jo-Anne Dobson (UUP, Upper Bann)

I thank the Member for the intervention. The point was very, very well made, and I totally agree with him.

Daithí McKay (Sinn Féin, North Antrim)

I thank the Member for giving way. She made reference to the Save the Dal campaign, which, no doubt, will continue to challenge the trust, especially in the absence of the Minister challenging the trust. The good thing about the debate today is that we have had clarification that the Minister is working with the trust to close down the hospital.

Jo-Anne Dobson (UUP, Upper Bann)

Yes, working with the trust's spokesman. I thank the Member for his intervention.

Fearghal McKinney praised the campaigners who were at Stormont last week, where he joined his colleagues from north Antrim. He said the real concern was over how the cuts are being administered. He also said that the decision to close the hospital is contrary to TYC, which I totally agree with.

Kieran McCarthy said that it was right to speak up loud and clear on this issue. He cited the Budget as the underlying cause of the decision and raised concern for the future. He also referred to TYC.

Paul Frew supported the motion and the campaign, which he described as being managed by the people. We have joined those people and given them a voice today. He also said that if the hospital was to disappear it would hurt for a generation. I hope his Minister, who has ultimate responsibility for the trust he lambasted here today, will listen to us and to Mr Frew.

Maeve McLaughlin referred to the closure as being short-sighted and spoke of Transforming Your Care.

In conclusion, we need to hear from the Minister what the plans are for future respite services for all 4,200 MS sufferers and their families across Northern Ireland. That is something on which I am looking for answers from the trust, the board and the Minister directly. Minister, you can make the intervention. You have the ability, you have the authority and you know in your heart that this is the right thing to do for MS sufferers in Northern Ireland. I support the motion and thank Members for their contributions.

Question put and agreed to. Resolved:

That this Assembly notes the decision to close the regional multiple sclerosis respite centre at Dalriada Hospital in Ballycastle until March 2015 and transfer the service to the independent sector; further notes the importance of appropriate respite provision for patients and their families; believes the decision to be entirely wrong and one which makes no financial sense; fears the decision will result in the permanent closure of the centre; and calls on the Minister of Health, Social Services and Public Safety to reverse the decision and immediately reinstate the service at Dalriada Hospital.

Mitchel McLaughlin (Sinn Féin, South Antrim)

The Business Committee has allowed up to one hour and 30 minutes for the debate. The proposer of the motion will have 10 minutes in which to propose and 10 minutes to wind up. One amendment has been selected and is published on the Marshalled List. The proposer of the amendment will have 10 minutes in which to propose and five minutes to wind up. All other Members who are called to speak will have five minutes.

Paul Givan (DUP, Lagan Valley)

I beg to move

That this Assembly condemns the targeting of Northern Ireland Prison Service employees by dissident republicans; calls upon the Minister of Justice to reject any proposal that compromises the security of HMP Maghaberry, the safety of prison staff or concedes to the demands of republican prisoners in Roe House; and further calls for a review by the Northern Ireland Prison Service, working with the Prison Officers' Association and the Prison Governors Association, to address concerns about staffing levels across all grades in each prison establishment in Northern Ireland.

This motion brings back the reality of what happened during the terrorist campaign in the conflict, when a number of prison officers were murdered by terrorists in pursuit of the Provisional IRA's objective to take over the Maze prison. Indeed, it succeeded in taking over the Maze prison. Countless officers were injured during the conflict, and it is right to put on record our appreciation of the sacrifice that they and their families made to protect our community.

Since the agreement was signed in 1998 and since the St Andrews Agreement and subsequent agreements were signed, prison officers have continued to be targeted. Their families have continued to be targeted. Prison officers have continued to be injured, and, of course, we know of the tragic and brutal murder of David Black in 2012. There has not been a peace dividend for prison officers and their families. It is appropriate that we remember that reality. Through the Prison Service protection scheme, hundreds of staff have had security installations put into their properties — not 10 years ago or 20 years ago but in the past number of years. Officers have had to relocate through the special purchase of evacuated dwellings (SPED) scheme because of the very specific threats made against them.

(Mr Deputy Speaker [Mr Dallat] in the Chair)

When the Maze prison closed, we were told that there would be no more separation and no more political status for those who committed crimes in the name of a flag or a cause. Maghaberry prison then housed those criminals who still tried to pursue their political aims through violence. They were integrated into the wider prison population in Maghaberry, but then the first concession was commenced. Paul Murphy, the Secretary of State in 2003, instituted the Steele review. That report made the recommendation that a separated regime should be established at Maghaberry prison. That is what happened. Roe House and Bush House then came into being. Was that the end of the protests? Was it the end of the demands made by prisoners in Maghaberry when they got their separated regime? No, it was not. What was their tactic? To continue to ask for more. How did they do that? By continuing to target prison officers and intimidate staff and to abuse them inside and outside the prison. What was the response to that ongoing intimidation and to the protests that were taking place in the prison? Under direct rule, Paul Murphy granted a separated regime.

Now that devolution has taken place, we have David Ford as the Minister of Justice. What is his response to the dirty protests and the intimidation? To sign an agreement in 2010. To carry out an appeasement process with the republicans who are intimidating and targeting prison officers and other staff. What is the policy for dealing with those who want to take control of Roe House in Maghaberry? To appease them and accommodate them. He struck a deal in 2010 that was another concession, building on the work of Paul Murphy. It was a capitulation to the demands made by those republican prisoners.

What were the next steps in that agreement? Did the protests stop? Did the intimidation stop? Did the targeting stop? No, they did not. They repeat the tactic that they have repeated for decades: they continue to target prison officers. They have a dirty protest. I was in Roe House when it was going on: the human excrement, the stench of urine, prison officers coming home saturated in urine that had been thrown over them by prisoners in Roe House. However, the 2010 agreement states that, in order to facilitate the agreement, the next steps were to be an end to the protest. The threats were to end. None of that happened. What is David Ford's response? Is it to go back to a pre-2010 agreement? No, it is not. He stands over the agreement that he negotiated with those terrorists.

For the record, in 2010, 53 prison officers required security installations in their property. In 2011, 43 prison officers required security installations. In 2012, David Black was gunned down as he travelled to work along the motorway by terrorists campaigning to take over Maghaberry prison. That tactic was used before by the Provisional IRA. In the 1970s, a family member of mine was shot at 13 times as he travelled to work in the Maze prison. He was hit twice by the Provisional IRA as they pulled up alongside his vehicle on the M1. Thankfully, by the grace of God, he survived and continued to do his job for the people of Northern Ireland. It is a tactic that has been tried and tested before by republicans as they try to take over the prison.

David Ford stands over the agreement. When the prison was wrecked and there was the huge cost of dealing with that dirty protest, the protest ended after David Black was murdered. What did David Ford do? In response to a question that I submitted at that time, he said that the prison arrangement at Roe House would go back to a pre-protest position. In other words, he stood by the 2010 agreement despite David Black being murdered and those prison officers being targeted. Now, the republicans' tried-and-tested tactic is to say, "We are now all working together in Roe House after the factional feuds that were there. We are now all going to have peace, and we will share facilities". The olive branch gets offered. They say, "We are not going to intimidate staff". I was in Maghaberry a number of weeks ago while the stocktake was going on. Republicans were keen to tell me, "Look! There is no intimidation here of staff". Yet, within a week of that visit, I was speaking to staff who had received direct death threats from those republican prisoners.

What does David Ford do? Independent assessors come in and make recommendations suggesting that there need to be more concessions and that we need to get back to the 2010 agreement. Who is to blame? "All sides are to blame. The Prison Service has not fully implemented this agreement. It is part of the problem and needs to be part of the solution". Not the republicans, no: everybody. This collective guilt that republicans are tried and tested —

Pat Ramsey (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

Will the Member give way?

Paul Givan (DUP, Lagan Valley)

I am not going to. I need to finish.

Yet, while the stocktake was going on when I was in Maghaberry, the grille separating the upper and lower landings in Roe House was open. The staff made it clear to me that that was a cause of concern for them, and concessions were being made while the stocktake was going on. That grille is now closed. Thankfully, it is closed, and, hopefully, I helped to get it closed. Yet, the assessors' attitude when they came to the Committee was "Let us take away the oxygen from the republican campaign. Don't allow them to become martyrs. We have now got them on the back foot, so we will use the approach that was tried in 2010" — and failed miserably — "Let us go back to that". What does David Ford do? He stands over those independent assessors, two of whom were responsible for 2010 and are still on the panel today. They are trying the same appeasement policy as has failed in the past.

What has happened? Threats continue. Republicans and those acting on behalf of those prisoners are naming officers on their websites. Targeting continues. When I speak to the Prison Service officials at the Committee, I am told that one threat would be one too many and that, therefore, the deal would be off. However, what did the Prison Service do? As a gesture of goodwill, it will implement part of the agreement. Yet, what was the next step even in the stocktake that was held recently? Protests need to end, and intimidation needs to end. What is the Prison Service director general's response? "As a gesture of goodwill and demonstration of our commitment, we will give in and make a concession".

Members, it is clear to me and to the prison officers I speak to that we have a weak and capitulating Minister of Justice and a weak and capitulating director general of the Prison Service. We have the repetition by dissident republicans of the tactics that were implemented by the Provisional IRA, and they are being conceded to. When will people realise that you do not deal with republicans by giving concessions to them? Who runs the prison? Is it the republican prisoners, or will it be the Prison Service, the director general and the Minister of Justice? Sadly, I have no confidence in this Minister and the director general being able to stand over a proper regime in Maghaberry that puts the safety and security of prison officers first and foremost.

John Dallat (Social Democratic and Labour Party, East Londonderry)

Order. The Business Committee has arranged to meet immediately after the lunchtime suspension today. I propose, therefore, by leave of the Assembly to suspend the sitting until 2.00 pm. The first item of business when we return will be Question Time.

The debate stood suspended. The sitting was suspended at 12.34 pm.

On resuming —

Oral Answers to Questions — Culture, Arts and Leisure

John Dallat (Social Democratic and Labour Party, East Londonderry)

I have to tell Members that questions 3, 8 and 10 have been withdrawn. We will start with listed questions.

Trevor Lunn (Alliance, Lagan Valley)

1. Mr Lunn asked the Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure for her assessment of the viewing figures for broadcast programmes funded by the Irish Language Broadcast Fund and the Ulster-Scots Broadcast Fund. (AQO 7130/11-15)

Trevor Lunn (Alliance, Lagan Valley)

Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. Ceist uimhir a haon. Question 1.

[Interruption.]

Carál Ní Chuilín (Sinn Féin, Belfast North)

Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. Gabhaim buíochas leis an Chomhalta as an cheist. Thank you very much to the Member.

In 2013-14, the target was to deliver 60 hours of Irish-language content to a weekly audience of 25,000. The Ulster-Scots Broadcast Fund aimed to deliver 12 hours of Ulster-Scots programming to reach an audience target of 40,000 people per programme in the North.

In the latest figures in Ofcom's communications market report, during 2013-14, programming supported by the Irish Language Broadcast Fund and the Ulster-Scots Broadcast Fund and broadcast by the BBC reached an audience of 660,000, which is just under 40% of the total population of the North. I believe that that demonstrates a continued demand for programming from both funds.

Trevor Lunn (Alliance, Lagan Valley)

I thank the Minister for her answer. Does she agree that those figures will help the case for her negotiations with the Department for Culture, Media and Sport (DCMS) when it comes to discussing the re-funding of those programmes?

Carál Ní Chuilín (Sinn Féin, Belfast North)

Absolutely. I fully agree with the Member, and I am delighted that those figures have been independently supported by Ofcom. They support the experience thus far from both broadcast funds, NI Screen and people in the creative industries sector, who have said to us that there is an increasing demand for work within both broadcast funds. That is a good thing, and it will certainly help my case — probably not this year — when I go to the Department for Culture, Media and Sport. I hope to have a further meeting at the end of this year, but, if that is not possible, a meeting with all the spokespersons will be realised at the beginning of next year and before the next Westminster election. It is important that we get cross-party support for it.

Nelson McCausland (DUP, Belfast North)

The Minister put the figures together for the programmes that are made by both broadcast funds. Will she give us separate viewing figures per programme for each fund? If not, will she send that on to me?

Will she also ensure that, when she is negotiating with the Treasury or DCMS in London, the funding for both broadcast funds is equalised? That will mean that we will have real equality and not the Trojan Horse of equality that was mentioned by her party leader last night in his efforts to break unionism, which, of course, he will fail to do.

Carál Ní Chuilín (Sinn Féin, Belfast North)

At least my party leader knows when to apologise, but —

A Member

He has plenty to apologise for.

John Dallat (Social Democratic and Labour Party, East Londonderry)

Order. Minister, will you resume your seat, please? At this stage, Members should know that I will not accept anyone making remarks of any kind from a sedentary position. I am disappointed that that has happened again today, especially so soon into Question Time.

Carál Ní Chuilín (Sinn Féin, Belfast North)

Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. I will certainly ensure that I will lobby to have the funds realised and will do so on the basis of need. If the Member is telling me that there is equality of demand and equality of evidence between the Irish language and Ulster Scots, I have yet to see it.

I will match funding to need. That has been my commitment, and I have done that thus far. I do not cherry-pick or pick pet projects but do it on the basis of need. I will happily negotiate for additional secured funding and an uplift on the current funding on that basis.

I will also happily furnish the Member with viewing figures for each of the programmes. Not only can both broadcast agencies stand over those figures but they have been independently supported by Ofcom. I am happy to share them with him and other members of the Committee.

John Dallat (Social Democratic and Labour Party, East Londonderry)

Members, before I call the next Member to speak, I have to tell you that question 9, not 10, was withdrawn. I apologise for that.

Jo-Anne Dobson (UUP, Upper Bann)

2. Mrs Dobson asked the Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure how she is promoting hockey in Lurgan and Portadown. (AQO 7131/11-15)

Carál Ní Chuilín (Sinn Féin, Belfast North)

I thank the Member for her question. As the Member knows, responsibility for promoting hockey in the North of Ireland, including Lurgan and Portadown, rests with the governing body of the sport, Ulster Hockey. Since 2011, Sport NI has provided Ulster Hockey with funding of almost £914,000 for the promotion and development of hockey across the North. A further £551,000 has been invested in hockey clubs and schools to deliver the sport in communities. In that investment, a number of primary schools in the Lurgan and Portadown areas have received funding of almost £3,400 to deliver a range of sports and to provide coaching for children, across sports, particularly hockey.

Sport NI is assessing applications received under its Active Awards for Sport programme. It is the second round of the lottery-funded small grants programme, which is primarily aimed at grassroots community-based sports. Six hockey organisations, including two hockey clubs based in the Craigavon Borough Council area, submitted applications. Sport NI will notify the applicants of the outcome in December 2014.

Jo-Anne Dobson (UUP, Upper Bann)

I thank the Minister for her answer. She will be aware that, last month, I, alongside Sport NI and DCAL officials, met Lurgan Ladies' hockey club and Killicomaine Junior High School. We are delighted that Killicomaine Junior High School has since had its new pitch confirmed by the board. What more can the Minister do to ensure more effective partnership working that will deliver further good-news stories for clubs and players in Portadown and Lurgan?

Carál Ní Chuilín (Sinn Féin, Belfast North)

The Member has highlighted the fact that partnership is key, certainly around future provision. That is particularly the case when looking at the capital needs of clubs and, in this case, schools and councils. The people involved in the case of the Member's constituency and the area that she highlighted came together naturally because they have a good working relationship. They also see that bringing clubs together and bringing clubs and schools together realises facilities; that is what we are encouraging people to do. Obviously, there is a big difficulty around future funding. However, if clubs, partnerships and schools provide evidence of need and of a good, effective partnership, with the support of a governing body, it will stand them in good stead. That is how we would like to see provision rolled out in future.

William Humphrey (DUP, Belfast North)

Does the Minister agree that it is important for young hockey players from Portadown and Lurgan and, indeed, from across Northern Ireland's clubs, to be able to participate in the Commonwealth Games? Will the Minister encourage Ulster Hockey to relax the regulations to allow a Northern Ireland team to participate in future Commonwealth Games, commencing in Gold Coast in 2018?

Carál Ní Chuilín (Sinn Féin, Belfast North)

I have written to the governing body on that matter. I have received correspondence, but I have not yet had an opportunity to read or disseminate it. That issue was raised with me in relation to hockey and rugby sevens at the previous Question Time, and I gave a guarantee then. Upon receipt of that correspondence, I will happily share it with the Member.

Mickey Brady (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. I thank the Minister for her answers so far. Will the Minister provide an update on Sport NI's new capital funding programme?

Carál Ní Chuilín (Sinn Féin, Belfast North)

I thank the Member for his question. Further to my response to the initial question, Sport NI is developing a capital programme that aims to invest £17·5 million of lottery funding to sports facilities over the next five years, which, I am sure the Member and other Members will agree, is substantial funding. The programme will seek to integrate the facility needs of community participants and the performance of athletes in the same multi-sports environment.

Sport NI has consulted sports governing bodies to identify priorities for high-performing athletes. It has also spoken, and started working in good partnerships, with councils to deliver sports facility strategies; it is also working with local clubs and communities. It is envisaged that that investment will be brought forward in the new year. At this stage, however, it is important to finish the consultation so that we get a robust level of service needs in the communities. The small grants award will be made known soon, and we will move on to the bigger capital programmes in the new year.

Karen McKevitt (Social Democratic and Labour Party, South Down)

What inter-sport exchanges does the Minister's Department encourage to allow young people to have the opportunity to learn more about sports that are not traditionally known in their communities, such as hockey and camogie?

Carál Ní Chuilín (Sinn Féin, Belfast North)

I know that the Member is aware of what is known now as the game of three halves. That goes across soccer, Gaelic games, rugby and, sometimes, hockey and other sports in between. I think that it is a good initiative. It exposes young people in particular to games that, traditionally, they normally would not find themselves attracted to. It also brings forward an awareness not just of the games but of the culture behind some of those games. It is really important. Sports governing bodies and individuals in clubs and schools have been very proactive in trying to make sure that children get every opportunity to avail themselves of those games.

I believe that, particularly in relation to soccer, Gaelic games and rugby, the three governing bodies, through additional funding that they have received from DCAL, have done a lot of work around that, not just to help people to improve their physical and mental health but with the cultural awareness and inclusion that those programmes bring. I am sure that the Member will agree that it is very important.

David McNarry (UKIP, Strangford)

4. Mr McNarry asked the Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure to outline the annual cost of staff at grade 5 and above in her Department. (AQO 7133/11-15)

Carál Ní Chuilín (Sinn Féin, Belfast North)

I thank the Member for his question. The cost of staff at grade 5 and above in my Department at the end of the financial year on 31 March 2014 was £818,428. This figure includes the cost of temporary staff involved in special projects or dedicated projects. When those posts are excluded, the cost was £690,000. At 31 March 2014, permanent staff at grade 5 and above comprised five at grade 5, including one at grade 3 and one permanent secretary.

David McNarry (UKIP, Strangford)

I thank the Minister for her answer. I have just a couple of points. I would be indebted to the Minister if she could relate more to the cost of £128,000 for temporary staff and what they were doing. I think that the figure is high. Has the Minister considered sharing some specialist functions in her Department, such as finance, with other Departments to save public money?

Carál Ní Chuilín (Sinn Féin, Belfast North)

I will happily relay that figure back and try to get the Member the detail tonight to him personally. I brought additional staff in to look at the stadia development programmes. Skilled expertise was needed in order to bring those programmes forward. In addition to that, I work with the Strategic Investment Board to try to ensure that there is better provision and that I do not have to buy in or contract additional work when that service is already available. The Member will also be aware that you pay for that, but it is an expertise that, so far, I have found very valuable.

The Member will also be aware that DCAL and its arm's-length bodies have a particular financial need in my Department to ensure that the money and the governance and audit trails around it flow freely. I am reluctant to point out one area in the working remit of DCAL that I would be happy to look at. At the minute, I am looking at everything.

Patsy McGlone (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Mid Ulster)

Mo bhuíochas leis an Aire as a freagraí go n-uige seo. What uptake of voluntary redundancy does she anticipate in her Department and how might that be funded?

Carál Ní Chuilín (Sinn Féin, Belfast North)

Gabhaim buíochas leis an Chomhalta as an cheist sin a chur orm. I have no idea at this stage about any figures in relation to voluntary redundancy. As the Member will be aware, my high-level financial budget plans, albeit provisional, were put on the website last week. It is something that the officials, with our staff side representatives, are working through. It is early days yet, but I anticipate that, by the close of play of the consultation on the draft Budget, we might have more definitive figures back. If and when those figures are brought forward, I will be happy to share them with him and with other members of the Culture, Arts and Leisure Committee.

John Dallat (Social Democratic and Labour Party, East Londonderry)

Mr Michael McGimpsey is not in his place.

Gordon Dunne (DUP, North Down)

6. Mr Dunne asked the Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure what progress has been made in securing the future of the Ulster Orchestra. (AQO 7135/11-15)

Carál Ní Chuilín (Sinn Féin, Belfast North)

I thank the Member for his question. I have met representatives of the orchestra to explore the nature of the problems that it faces and the work that it is undertaking to identify possible solutions. Officials from my Department, together with the Arts Council, continue to engage with the orchestra and its sponsors to develop and refine potential operating models and alternative funding mechanisms that would enable it to safeguard its future. If a new, sustainable operating model emerges, I will give it serious consideration, and, subject to receiving assurances that it can be delivered, only then will I engage with Executive colleagues to assess how we as an Executive might support it.

Gordon Dunne (DUP, North Down)

I thank the Minister for her answer. I welcome her recognition of the Ulster Orchestra's significance in Northern Ireland's cultural life. Will she give us an assurance that she will continue to drum up support for the Ulster Orchestra, subject to the production of a new operating model?

Carál Ní Chuilín (Sinn Féin, Belfast North)

I am sure that we will hear some more about the Ulster Orchestra, not only today but over the next couple of days. As I said in my primary answer, I am expecting a revised business model to come back from the Ulster Orchestra, on the basis that it can stand up to scrutiny. I am sure that the Member and others have concerns about that, but it will mean that we are not facing this problem year on year and that the orchestra will withstand next year's Budget, the Budget the year after that and Budget the year after that. It is only if the new revised model is brought forward and that it has full support that I can bring forward any proposals to my Executive colleagues for support. I value the Ulster Orchestra's work, and I am on record as saying that. However, it is unsustainable in its current configuration.

Basil McCrea (NI21, Lagan Valley)

Minister, are you expecting that revised plan today? If so, when will you be in a position to evaluate it and decide whether you can help?

Carál Ní Chuilín (Sinn Féin, Belfast North)

I am expecting a revised plan by no later than Friday of this week, which is 28 November. If you are under the impression that I am expecting it today, you know more than my private office, but, sure, that would not be a first, Basil, would it?

I am certainly expecting the revised plan by the end of this week, and, soon after, I will be working on seeing whether we can realise it. I will meet the orchestra and, indeed, the Arts Council, Belfast City Council and the orchestra's other sponsors to see whether we can get a model that suits everyone's needs.

Nelson McCausland (DUP, Belfast North)

I welcome the fact that Belfast City Council has made the commitment of £100,000 towards the Ulster Orchestra. I understand that Sir George Bain made some comments on the radio today about the provision of the business model for the Ulster Orchestra, which, given what has been said even here, will hopefully be forthcoming very soon. Will the Minister give the clear undertaking that, in the event that it arrives in the next few days, she will very soon be in a position with the Arts Council to ensure that the funding to make up the shortfall on top of the £100,000 is met?

Carál Ní Chuilín (Sinn Féin, Belfast North)

I did not hear any of the comments on the radio about the orchestra, but my understanding was that that £100,000 came from Belfast City Council on the condition that DCAL's funding came forward. My conditions are that, if the revised model is robust and helps to meet the needs of the Arts Council, DCAL, Belfast City Council and the other sponsors, and we attract the rest of the Executive's support, that is a way to go forward. My clear intention is that we do not meet a shortfall only to be in the same place next year. I do not think that that is fair on the orchestra, the Arts Council, Belfast City Council or the other sponsors. I also do not think that it is fair to the public, who have a lot of loyalty to the orchestra and want to see it surviving, working and thriving. It is my job to make sure that the model can stand up to scrutiny and has the economic sustainability that no one paid attention to in previous years.

Chris Lyttle (Alliance, Belfast East)

I add my voice to the Save the Ulster Orchestra campaign and welcome Belfast City Council's investment. I seek the Minister's assurances that she will do all that she can to ensure that, as part of any funding model that she may be able to award, the orchestra will not be reduced in size to that of a chamber orchestra?

Carál Ní Chuilín (Sinn Féin, Belfast North)

I cannot give guarantees about what size the orchestra will be or what it may or may not be reduced to. I understand that the Ulster Orchestra's programme management board will be bringing a few suggestions and proposals to the model, and it would be foolhardy for me to say that I would support a, b, c or d without even having seen them first. I am sure that the Member appreciates that. We need to ensure that we make every effort and put our best foot forward to do everything that we can to try to make sure that the Ulster Orchestra is sustainable. Therefore, it is on the basis of what we have, what we expect to be brought forward and what support we can get to sustain it in future years.

Alban Maginness (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast North)

The Ulster Orchestra is highly respected throughout the world and is a leader in many respects. Will the Minister reassure the House that, in the event of there being an ultimate crisis that might see the orchestra go out of business, she will provide the necessary funding, given the fact that every substantial orchestra throughout the world is supported by public funds?

Carál Ní Chuilín (Sinn Féin, Belfast North)

The Member is asking me to give guarantees that I am not in a position to give. The orchestra costs a lot of money from the public purse and will cost money in the future from the public purse, and I am not saying that it should not. Even the orchestra itself said that it is currently unsustainable. We need to get an orchestra that is fit for purpose and will have better economic security in the years ahead. That will mean that we will have an orchestra that we are all very loyal to and proud of. It will also mean that it will provide inspiration and aspiration for young musicians coming forward, and there will be employment. However, at this stage, it would be foolish to give guarantees that I cannot give just to be politically popular.

Leslie Cree (UUP, North Down)

I also heard that the new operating model had been prepared. In your budget, Minister, you obviously have a certain amount set aside to use at your own discretion and for prioritisation. Can you indicate whether there is any money in that that might give the orchestra a bit of hope at this stage? I know that we cannot tie you down, but is there hope from DCAL?

Carál Ní Chuilín (Sinn Féin, Belfast North)

Any discretionary money that I have is very, very small. It would not even be seen in the Ulster Orchestra. I made a decision to invest that small discretionary money into disability, particularly arts performance for children who are severely disabled, and I make no apology for that. You are talking about £25,000 here, £10,000 there and nothing over £50,000 at one time, particularly in relation to plays for children and young people who were so far removed from services that I do not think that anybody — I am not even suggesting the Member — would argue that that was not the thing to do. The Ulster Orchestra needs hundreds of thousands of pounds of public money, and I do not have that amount of money lying surplus in my Department.

As I said, and I am sure that the Member was here when I said it, I am waiting for the sustainable model to be brought forward by the end of this week. When I read it and have discussions with my colleagues in the Arts Council and Belfast City Council, the sponsors and my Executive colleagues first and foremost, only then will I make a decision or a recommendation to them if I am satisfied that the model that they are bringing forward is what we need for the future.

Jimmy Spratt (DUP, Belfast South)

7. Mr Spratt asked the Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure what impact the current financial situation will have on the arts sector. (AQO 7136/11-15)

Carál Ní Chuilín (Sinn Féin, Belfast North)

The impact of the draft Budget for 2015-16 will not be unique to the arts sector. All service areas across my Department and its arm's-length bodies have been affected by the recently announced budget reductions. Decisions on how budget reductions are managed are a matter, in the first instance, for the board and the senior management. I have asked that the Arts Council does all it can to minimise the impact of the reductions on jobs and front-line services. Work on developing savings plans is continuing, and my Department intends to publish a more detailed assessment of the likely impacts by the close of the draft Budget at the end of November this year.