Northern Ireland Assembly, 22 June 2015

465 contributions from 69 members. The official report.

Assembly Business

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

On a point of order, Mr Speaker. On exiting the Building last week after the debate on collusion, I was berated, as were other Members of the Assembly, by members of the public. I witnessed Mr Maginness being berated quite badly. I was berated. I went on about my business and did not respond, and then was told to rot in hell. Subsequently, other Members had to actually leave the Great Hall because of the hostility that was being demonstrated towards them, including members of my party and members of the SDLP. I note that, when people are given temporary passes to enter the Building, they are supposed to adhere to a behavioural code. I ask that those matters are looked at and addressed because, when I asked the security folks to look at it, they indicated that this was a public part of the Building and that they had no authority to deal with it.

I do not think that it is acceptable for any Member of the Assembly, whether nationalist, republican, unionist or whatever, to be attacked in the way in which Members were attacked last week. I want to avoid that situation or circumstance happening again. I can identify two of the individuals who were involved. I personally witnessed Mark Thompson from Relatives for Justice being particularly aggressive. It was a lady who launched the assault on me, and I could quite easily identify her were the opportunity to arise. Frankly, it is unacceptable that Members of the Assembly should be treated in that way by members of the public, and we need to have a system in place that deals with that. At this moment, it does not appear that that is the case.

Mitchel McLaughlin (Speaker, South Antrim)

My initial response is that that is not actually a point of order because it does not refer to issues in the Chamber, but I take seriously the point that you made. I have addressed the significance and importance of Members in this Chamber treating each other with respect because I think that behaviour occasionally oversteps the mark and sets a very poor example indeed. I will refer the matter for investigation to see whether there is anything that we can do, but I will take the opportunity on the issue that you have addressed to remind Members that we can give a lead. We can choose not to, but, in our discourse, discussion and debates, we should act with a considerable sense of responsibility for the image and message that we send from this Chamber. That may or may not be an onus that Members want to take on, but I can tell you that I will address it as Speaker because I take it very seriously indeed.

Jim Allister (Traditional Unionist Voice, North Antrim)

Further to that point of order, Mr Speaker, you have said that you do not think that it is a point of order because it did not happen in the House, but surely this House should examine the question of whether or not it could amount to a breach of the privilege of this House. That is a matter that I would have thought very much falls within your ambit for reference to the Committee on Standards and Privileges.

Mitchel McLaughlin (Speaker, South Antrim)

I have already said that I will refer the matter for consideration. I think that will suffice for now. If necessary, I will come back to the House with any findings.

Mitchel McLaughlin (Speaker, South Antrim)

Before we proceed with today's business, I have some announcements to make. The nominating officer of the Ulster Unionist Party has informed me that Mr Roy Beggs has replaced Mr Danny Kinahan as Chairperson of the Audit Committee with effect from 15 June 2015, and that Mrs Sandra Overend has replaced Mr Danny Kinahan as Deputy Chairperson of the Committee for Education, also with effect from 15 June 2015. I am satisfied that the requirements of Standing Orders have been met.

Matter of the Day

Mitchel McLaughlin (Speaker, South Antrim)

Mr Martin McGuinness has been given leave to make a statement on the tragic events in Berkeley, California, which fulfils the criteria set out in Standing Order 24. If other Members wish to be called, they should rise in their place and continue to do so. All Members called will have up to three minutes to speak. I remind Members that I will not take any points of order on this or any other matter until this item of business is finished.

Martin McGuinness (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. Thank you very much for accepting the matter of the day on what was a shocking, heartbreaking and catastrophic accident in Berkeley, California, which resulted in the tragic deaths of six Irish students and very serious injuries to many others.

Ireland and the United States of America have enjoyed an unbreakable bond going back many centuries, and Ireland and Berkeley enjoy a special bond as the city is named after the Anglo-Irish Bishop of Cloyne, George Berkeley, who was also, for a period, the Dean of Derry.

Our hearts, thoughts, prayers, condolences and sympathy go out to the families of Olivia Burke, her cousin Ashley Donohoe, who lived in California, Eoghan Culligan, Niccolai Schuster, Lorcán Miller and Eimear Walsh. It has been a shocking experience for their families, and there is deep sadness all over the island of Ireland at the loss of those beautiful young people. Of course, we also send our best wishes for a speedy recovery to Clodagh Cogley, Aoife Beary, Niall Murray, Hannah Waters, Sean Fahey, Jack Halpin and Conor Flynn. They are all aged between 20 and 22 and are all from Dublin, with the exception of one student, who is from Donegal.

The Taoiseach summed it up correctly when he said that, when we look at the photographs of those young people, it is like looking at photographs of our own children. That is how raw this is for all of us on the island of Ireland. I think that it is important to let the families know that all of us, in every part of Ireland, are thinking about them at this time as they are about to lay to rest their children.

It is also important to record our deep appreciation and gratitude for the leadership shown by the Mayor of Berkeley, Tom Bates, all the emergency services and the citizens of Berkeley. I was very pleased to see that, during the Mass for the six young people in California, the nine African-American victims of the shootings at the Emanuel African Methodist Episcopal Church in Charleston, South Carolina, were remembered. It is a small world, and there is a common humanity, and it was nice to see that, at this time of terrible tragedy in South Carolina and California, people were able to come together to remember the victims.

Peter Weir (DUP, North Down)

I join others in the Chamber in expressing sympathy, particularly to the families, after this terribly tragic loss of six young lives. I suspect that all of us in the Chamber have lost loved ones and that is probably particularly poignant for a lot of us as we emerge from Father's Day. Many of us have had family members die and experienced the pain of bereavement, but there is something particularly acute for any family when a parent has to bury their child. It is not simply the bereavement itself; in many ways, it seems to go against the natural order of things when a child dies ahead of his or her parents. We can only imagine the level of grief amongst the six families.

Similarly, what has exacerbated the situation is that, at the time of this dreadful accident, those children were so far away. All of us have relatives and friends who have gone on holiday, gone on gap years, gone to study or gone to work abroad. Most of us do not have to face the tragedy of the tearful departure at the airport being the last time that we see those people alive. The tragedy is in even greater focus as a result of that, because it brings a sense of helplessness to the family. One can only imagine the pain and frustration of the families, as they endured that long flight to America, from not being able to see their loved ones.

I am Chair of the Education Committee, and we discussed this at our meeting on Wednesday. As a Committee, we have written to Berkeley to express our sorrow at the tragic loss of these young people, and I am sure that that reflects the sentiments of the Assembly. All were aged 21 or 22 and had potentially great lives ahead of them, which were sadly cut short.

It is also right that we recognise the appalling murderous events in Charleston, South Carolina, where someone motivated by racism murdered nine innocent people in their church. Some of the expressions of forgiveness and love that have come from members of that church have been truly heartbreaking. This is a day when we will unite to acknowledge both those tragedies, stand with those who are injured and hope that they make a good recovery and send out a clear message of sympathy, particularly to the families, because, above all else, this is a human tragedy, and it is one for which we have every sympathy with those families.

Máirtín Ó Muilleoir (Sinn Féin, Belfast South)

Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. I want to add to the deputy First Minister's statement about Mayor Tom Bates, who is a great friend of this city and this country. His wife, Senator Loni Hancock, last week proposed the adjournment of the California State Senate in condolence and sympathy with the victims of the Berkeley tragedy. I want to put that on record.

We enjoy a great bond with Berkeley, which is, of course, named after an Anglo-Irish bishop, George Berkeley. I hope and trust that, in the time ahead, that bond with Berkeley will be strengthened by this tragedy.

Alasdair McDonnell (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast South)

I also add my sympathy and my thoughts, and those of the SDLP, because I share the grief and distress felt by so many across the island of Ireland, the US and much further afield at the awful tragedy in Berkeley. I associate the murderous attack on the church in Charleston with those remarks.

For me, the Berkeley incident brought back a lot of memories. It was particularly poignant, and I shared it in a very personal and deeper way than most because, some 44 years ago, I was that J1 student: I was that UCD student, like so many of those who died. I was a medical student, who, financially broke, travelled to the US, like many of these young people, to widen my horizons and clear my bank debts. I pay tribute to the very practical expression that the US has given by promoting the J1 visa programme for students and naming it the land of opportunity. It is particularly helpful and particularly useful and gives all sorts of opportunities to young people. I will leave that at that.

It was awful, unbelievably awful, for many of us and, indeed, awful beyond that for the families that six young people died in such tragic circumstances. It was doubly awful for the families who had bid farewell to them — some a few days, some a couple of weeks, earlier — as they set out on the journey or expedition of a lifetime, full of hope, full of expectation and full of excitement to see the world. It was awful for those who were injured and their families, and I pray to God that they make a rapid and good recovery. I join in sending the very genuine messages of sympathy and support from the Chamber to all concerned: to the families and friends of those killed; and to the injured and their families and friends. I wish and pray that God may bless them and take care of them all in due course at this awful and very sad time for them all.

Mike Nesbitt (UUP, Strangford)

I extend the heartfelt sympathy of the Ulster Unionist Party to those impacted by what happened in Berkeley last week. For many hundreds of years, people from this place, this little postage stamp on the world map, have been heading to North America. The Ulster Scots, or the Scots Irish, as the Americans like to call them, did so in the early 1600s, as did those fleeing the Irish famine in the 19th century to head up Irish America. All experienced the full range of human emotion, from ecstasy to utter despair.

Collectively, our people have punched well above our weight. We have provided over a dozen presidents, as well as generals, scholars and, of course, a labour force second to none. Indeed, today, as many as 40 million Americans can claim to be descended from this island. The United States is for many a home and, for J1 students, a home from home. I have no doubt that the young people who lost their life in Berkeley felt that they were at home. They had a reasonable expectation that, being at home, they were safe. Their friends shared that reasonable expectation. Their families and parents no doubt felt the reasonable expectation that they were safe, but, sadly and tragically, that was not so.

Given the connections that run so deep through both of our traditional communities, this loss is a loss for all of us: Ulster Scots, Scots Irish and Irish Americans. We are connected in the most human of ways. Who knows what those young people would have gone on to be? Perhaps future leaders, but, certainly, they were most cruelly cut down.

Arthur Miller, the great 20th-century American playwright, spent a lot of his professional career studying the American dream: that fantastic concept that anybody could be anything that they wanted to be in the United States, if they really wanted it. I want to end with the words of Arthur Miller because, as we think of the nightmare that the parents of these young people are enduring today, I think that these words will say it all about the deaths of Niccolai Schuster, Eoghan Culligan, Eimear Walsh, Olivia Burke, Ashley Donohoe and Lorcán Miller. Arthur Miller wrote:

"I cannot sleep for dreaming; I cannot dream but I wake and walk about the house as though I'd find you comin' through some door."

Tragically, six doors have been closed, finally and calamitously, as with the dead in the church attack. We wish the injured full and speedy recoveries.

Chris Lyttle (Alliance, Belfast East)

As someone who studied at the University of California and spent time in Berkeley in 2001, on behalf of the Alliance Party I extend our deepest and heartfelt sympathy to the families of the students who died in such tragic circumstances in Berkeley, California last week. It is impossible to comprehend the grief and loss that the families are experiencing at this time, but I assure them that the Members of the Assembly extend their thoughts, prayers and support to them at this time. Indeed, the people of Ireland share their arm with those families at this time.

I recognise the professionalism and compassion with which the people of Berkeley have responded to the tragedy. It is consistent with my experience of the people of Berkeley, of California and of America as a peace-loving, welcoming people with a special affection for the people of Ireland. I hope that the same level of compassion and professionalism will be demonstrated in properly investigating the tragedy.

The Alliance Party also supports the Mayor of Belfast and the US consul general, Greg Burton, as they open a book of condolences in Belfast City Hall today. I assure the families and all those affected by the tragedy that the Assembly stands with them and sends out a clear message of sympathy and support to them today.

Jim Allister (Traditional Unionist Voice, North Antrim)

I join in expressions of sympathy to the afflicted families and in wishing those who have been injured a speedy and full recovery. It has been well said that there is something unnatural and particularly trying for a parent to have to bury their own child. As parents, we can all appreciate that. Indeed, I can think of one Member in the House who has passed through that dark valley and has that burden to bear. The rest of us, in the main, can only imagine the horror and abiding presence of that. When it happens in those sudden circumstances and a young life is snuffed out in that way, it has to be all the more difficult to bear.

In our own small Province, we are all familiar with young lives being lost, whether in the tragic sudden circumstances of a road traffic accident, in farm accidents — it is just about a year since we remembered a young boy from my constituency who lost his life in a sudden farm accident — or, in the history of this Province, through the wicked hand of terrorism, where many young people, as well as older people, lost their lives and had to be buried by their parents. All of that culminates to give us all a sense of the magnitude of the loss that has been inflicted on the families from the Irish Republic who have suffered that great loss. We can all join in that and genuinely empathise with them.

I made reference to the loss of lives in so many different circumstances, sometimes in the circumstances of terrorism. That causes me to say that the one who raised this matter today has not always been so constant in his sympathy for loss of life —

Mitchel McLaughlin (Speaker, South Antrim)

Will the Member —

Jim Allister (Traditional Unionist Voice, North Antrim)

— given his role as a godfather —

Mitchel McLaughlin (Speaker, South Antrim)

Will the Member bring his remarks to a close?

Jim Allister (Traditional Unionist Voice, North Antrim)

— of an organisation that robbed many people of their lives, young and old.

Steven Agnew (Green, North Down)

I rise to add my sympathies and those of the Green Party in Northern Ireland to the families of those who have so tragically died and to offer our best wishes to those who are injured and to wish them a speedy recovery.

We all look for a way to connect with this tragedy. We will all have different ways, but, like others who spoke, I rise as a father who can only imagine the suffering of anyone who loses a child. It can only be imagined. I know how much I suffer when one of my children stubs their knee. We feel such an affection for our children that to lose a child in such a tragic way can bring only unimaginable grief. I am sure that no words that I can offer today can mitigate that grief, but I think that it is important that we offer our condolences and best wishes to those families.

The only thing that I would like to add is that I read one worrying quote from a former city official who said that it was only a "decorative" balcony. I do not know whether there is any legitimacy to that claim, but I hope that, as part of any investigations, the building regulations are examined to see whether there is any way that such tragedies can be prevented through better regulation or better enforcement. It is clear that if a balcony is built it should be built properly, well and to the highest standards to ensure health and safety. We do not want to speak about another such tragedy ever again.

With that, I will conclude. I just hope that those who are injured can recover speedily and fully.

David McNarry (UKIP, Strangford)

I thank the Member who brought this matter before the House to allow us to join with the rest of the world in expressing our views on this tragic event. I join with all that has been said in the House this afternoon and have great delight at the united expression of genuine grief. As a father with a daughter and granddaughters in America at this moment in time, this tragedy has struck home, because all sorts of things come into your mind.

The sadness of this tragic event is well measured. I appreciate all that has been said in the House. I ask that it be understood that UKIP conveys its deep condolences to the families in our prayers and thoughts at this time of bereavement. We wish them all strength and fortitude in the days ahead. I trust that the messages that are being genuinely expressed in the House will be conveyed, perhaps through your kind offices, Mr Speaker, to the families and citizens of Berkeley on our behalf.

Claire Sugden (Independent, East Londonderry)

I, too, appreciate the opportunity to offer my sincere condolences to the families and friends of those who lost their lives in Berkeley. I wish those who have to recover a speedy recovery.

I spent two summers in Washington DC on a J1 visa. My first trip out to the United States was just over five years ago. It was part of a programme with 30 students from Northern Ireland and Ireland who spent the summer on a leadership and development programme in the capital. I suppose that one of the things that came out of it for me was that it was one of the happiest summers of my life. If it can give any comfort to those who have lost in the past week, I can say that my time in Washington DC on my J1 was one of the happiest summers of my life. It was a fantastic, close-knit group of Irish people, coming together and doing wonderful things. It is very sad that, in this case, those students will now not get to realise the opportunities that that opened.

It is a terrible tragedy right across the world. Whatever part of this island you are from, whether Northern Ireland or the Republic of Ireland, I think that we are all feeling that pain. Again, I thank you for the opportunity for allowing me to offer my sincere condolences.

Gordon Dunne (DUP, North Down)

I, too, support of the Matter of the Day on this sombre occasion following the tragedy of Berkeley last week. Approximately this time last year, I visited the Berkeley area as part of a trade delegation with Invest NI and the Committee for Enterprise, Trade and Investment. We were privileged to meet the mayor, Tom Bates, and others. I quickly got a sense of the vibrant, welcoming and diverse city that Berkeley is. I was struck by the mayor's welcoming spirit and how he proudly talked about the close links that the city had developed with young people through its popular university, and its links with this part of the world. I was also impressed by his real interest in the work of the Northern Ireland Assembly and our bid to bring investment to Northern Ireland.

This, as has been said, is a real tragedy. To lose six young people in the prime of their life is a terrible thing. None of us can really begin to imagine the sense of loss for the families affected. Their pain and anguish must be unbearable. Our thoughts and prayers are with them at this sad time.

We must also express our best wishes to those who were injured and are still recovering. It is a fitting tribute that the Assembly is sending its condolences to the bereaved families and the city of Berkeley.

Mitchel McLaughlin (Speaker, South Antrim)

Thank you very much. That concludes the item of business. I ask Members to take their ease while we change the top Table.

(Mr Deputy Speaker [Mr Beggs] in the Chair)

Assembly Business

Roy Beggs (UUP, East Antrim)

Mr Jonathan Craig has sought leave to present a public petition in accordance with Standing Order 22. The Member has up to three minutes in which to speak.

Jonathan Craig (DUP, Lagan Valley)

Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. I take great pleasure in presenting the petition, which has over 2,500 signatures.

Dromore High School has a very special place in my heart. It is not only the school that I went to but the school that my children are now going to. Thirty-five years ago when I was attending the school, it was heavily oversubscribed. A school built for 500 children, at that time it had 600 pupils. It was on the priority list for new builds in what was then the Southern Education and Library Board.

Since then, the school's population has grown to 940 pupils. One can only imagine how dense and complicated the running of that school now is. It has got so complicated that prefabs are becoming a real problem for planners. The last extension that was to be made to the prefabs on the site was turned down owing to planning considerations.

The school should be one of the top priorities in the area, but, as yet, there has been no real movement on any new build. The site just does not have the capacity to hold the school. There are huge difficulties around special educational needs and how those are delivered. Disability access is practically non-existent, which causes huge problems for the management of the school.

I pay tribute to the Minister of Education, Mr O'Dowd, for last year going ahead with the purchase of a site for a new school building. With this petition, my colleague Mr Edwin Poots and I wish to reinforce the public support that there is in not only Dromore but the wider Lagan valley region for a complete new build to meet the needs of not only one of the largest schools in our constituency but one of the most successful academically.

With that, I wish to hand the petition over.

Mr Craig moved forward and laid the petition on the Table.

Roy Beggs (UUP, East Antrim)

I will forward the petition to the Minister of Education and send a copy to the Education Committee.

Roy Beggs (UUP, East Antrim)

Mr Máirtín Ó Muilleoir has sought leave to present a public petition in accordance with Standing Order 22. The Member will have up to three minutes to speak on the subject.

Máirtín Ó Muilleoir (Sinn Féin, Belfast South)

Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. Míle buíochas as an deis an achainí seo a thabhairt duit. I want to present a petition today in relation to the appeal for a pedestrian crossing on the upper Ormeau Road. That pedestrian crossing would be placed opposite, or outside, Holy Rosary Church.

As many Members know, the Ormeau Road is one of the busiest roads in the city of Belfast. In fact, in 2013, the DRD identified the Ormeau Road as the North's worst traffic accident black spot. Therefore, the need for a pedestrian crossing speaks for itself.

The petition has been signed by 794 people, the majority of whom are elderly Holy Rosary parishioners.

I made a formal request to Roads Service in October 2014 to have a pedestrian crossing put in place. It accepts the need for a pedestrian crossing there, but, as yet, no date has been set for providing such a crossing. It is my firm belief that, despite the atmosphere of cuts in which we find ourselves, it would be much more prudent for the DRD to put in a pedestrian crossing at this point than to wait until there is another accident. God forbid that there would be a serious accident at that part of the Ormeau Road, but immediate action to put a pedestrian crossing in place would not only be timely and wise but would be welcomed by those who signed the petition.

This morning, I went through some of the comments of those who signed the petition. They are united in their belief that the pedestrian crossing is badly and seriously needed, and it would be a very welcome decision by the Minister for Regional Development if he proceeded with it.

Mr Ó Muilleoir moved forward and laid the petition on the Table.

Roy Beggs (UUP, East Antrim)

I will forward the petition to the Minister for Regional Development and forward a copy to the Committee.

Executive Committee Business

David Ford (Alliance, South Antrim)

I beg to move

That Standing Orders 10(2) to 10(4) be suspended for 22 June 2015.

Roy Beggs (UUP, East Antrim)

Before we proceed to the Question, I remind Members that the motion requires cross-community support.

Question put and agreed to. Resolved (with cross-community support):

That Standing Orders 10(2) to 10(4) be suspended for 22 June 2015.

Roy Beggs (UUP, East Antrim)

Last Tuesday afternoon, a valid petition of concern was tabled to amendment No 7 during the Further Consideration Stage of the Justice Bill. That means that, under Standing Order 28, the Question on amendment No 7 could not be taken at that time and would be required to be taken on a cross-community basis. The amendment stood on the Marshalled List in the name of Edwin Poots, who moved it. Accordingly, we will now move to the Question on amendment No 7.

Amendment No 7 proposed:

After clause 89 insert

"Sentencing for violent offences against older people

89A.—(1) This section applies where an individual is convicted of a violent offence and that individual was aged 18 or over when the offence was committed.

(2) The court shall impose a custodial sentence for a term of at least seven years (with or without a fine) unless the court is of the opinion that there are exceptional circumstances relating to the offence or to the offender which justify its not doing so.

(3) For the purposes of this section “violent offence” means an offence which leads or is intended or likely to lead to the death of a person aged 65 years or more or to physical injury to a person aged 65 years or more and includes an offence which is required to be charged as arson (whether or not it would otherwise fall within this definition).

(4) If there are exceptional circumstances which justify?—

(a) the imposition of a lesser sentence than that provided for under subsection (2), or

(b) the exercise by the court of its powers under section 18 of the Treatment of Offenders Act (Northern Ireland) 1968,

the court shall state in open court that it is of the opinion that such exceptional circumstances exist and the reasons for that opinion.

(5) Where subsection (4) applies the Chief Clerk shall record both the opinion of the court that exceptional circumstances exist and the reasons stated in open court which justify either the imposition of a lesser sentence or the exercise of its powers under section 18 of the Treatment of Offenders Act (Northern Ireland) 1968 as the case may be.

(6) For the purposes of subsection (2) “custodial sentence” shall not include a sentence in relation to which the court has made an order under section 18 of the Treatment of Offenders Act (Northern Ireland) 1968.

(7) For the avoidance of doubt, an offence falling within the definition of subsection (3) is a violent offence for the purposes of this section whether or not there is evidence that any individual who is convicted of such an offence knew or suspected that any person who dies or sustains physical injury, or any person who is intended or likely to die or sustain physical injury, is aged 65 years or more.

(8) In section 36 (reviews of sentencing) of the Criminal Justice Act 1988 in subsection (9)(d) after “2015” insert the words?—

“and a sentence required to be imposed by virtue of section 89A of the Justice Bill 2015”.". — [Mr Poots.]

Question put, That amendment No 7 be made. The Assembly divided:

Ayes 41; Noes 46

AYES

UNIONIST:

Mr Anderson, Mr Bell, Ms P Bradley, Mr Buchanan, Mrs Cameron, Mr Campbell, Mr Clarke, Mr Craig, Mr Cree, Mrs Dobson, Mr Douglas, Mr Dunne, Mr Elliott, Mrs Foster, Mr Frew, Mr Gardiner, Mr Girvan, Mr Givan, Mrs Hale, Mr Hilditch, Mr Humphrey, Mr Irwin, Mr McCausland, Mr I McCrea, Mr D McIlveen, Miss M McIlveen, Mr McQuillan, Mr Middleton, Lord Morrow, Mr Moutray, Mr Nesbitt, Mr Newton, Mrs Overend, Mr Poots, Mr G Robinson, Mr Ross, Mr Spratt, Mr Storey, Mr Swann, Mr Weir, Mr Wells

Tellers for the Ayes: Mr McQuillan, Mr G Robinson

NOES

NATIONALIST:

Mr Attwood, Ms Boyle, Mr Byrne, Ms Fearon, Mr Flanagan, Mr Hazzard, Mr G Kelly, Mr Lynch, Mr McAleer, Mr F McCann, Ms J McCann, Mr McCartney, Ms McCorley, Dr McDonnell, Mr McElduff, Ms McGahan, Mr McGlone, Mr M McGuinness, Mrs McKevitt, Mr McKinney, Ms Maeve McLaughlin, Mr McMullan, Mr A Maginness, Mr Maskey, Mr Milne, Mr Murphy, Ms Ní Chuilín, Mr Ó hOisín, Mr Ó Muilleoir, Mr O'Dowd, Mrs O'Neill, Mr Ramsey, Mr Rogers, Ms Ruane, Mr Sheehan

UNIONIST:

Mr Allister, Mr McCallister, Mr B McCrea, Ms Sugden

OTHER:

Mr Agnew, Mrs Cochrane, Dr Farry, Mr Ford, Ms Lo, Mr Lyttle, Mr McCarthy

Tellers for the Noes: Mr Hazzard, Mr Lynch

Total Votes87Total Ayes41[47.1%]Nationalist Votes35Nationalist Ayes0[0.0%]Unionist Votes45Unionist Ayes41[91.1%]Other Votes7Other Ayes0[0.0%]

Question accordingly negatived (cross-community vote).

Clause 90 (General duty to progress criminal proceedings)

Amendment No 8 made:

In page 65, line 7, leave out from beginning to "magistrates’ court" on line 8 and insert

"In relation to criminal proceedings in the Crown Court or a magistrates’ court, it is the duty of the court, the prosecution and the defence". — [Mr Ford (The Minister of Justice).]

New Clause

Amendment No 9 made:

After clause 95 insert

"Domestic violence protection notices and orders

Domestic violence protection notices and orders

95A. Schedule 6A (which makes provision about domestic violence protection notices and orders) has effect." — [Mr Ford (The Minister of Justice).]

New clause ordered to stand part of the Bill.

New Clause

Amendment No 10 made:

After clause 98 insert

"Amendment to Human Trafficking and Exploitation (Criminal Justice and Support for Victims) Act (Northern Ireland) 2015

Amendment to Human Trafficking and Exploitation (Criminal Justice and Support for Victims) Act (Northern Ireland) 2015

98A.—(1) Section 21 of the Human Trafficking and Exploitation (Criminal Justice and Support for Victims) Act (Northern Ireland) 2015 (independent guardian) is amended as follows.

(2) In subsection (4) for paragraph (a) (which requires arrangements to be made with a charity registered under the Charities Act (Northern Ireland) 2008) substitute?—

“(a) be made with a charity;”.

(3) In subsection (11) (definitions) after the definition of “administrative decision” insert?—

“ “charity” means an institution which is?—

(a) a charity within the meaning of section 1 of the Charities Act (Northern Ireland) 2008 or treated as such a charity by virtue of the Charities Act 2008 (Transitional Provision) Order (Northern Ireland) 2013;

(b) a charity within the meaning of section 1 of the Charities Act 2011; or

(c) a charity within the definition set out in section 106 of the Charities and Trustee Investment (Scotland) Act 2005;”.". — [Mr Ford (The Minister of Justice).]

New clause ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Roy Beggs (UUP, East Antrim)

We now come to the third group of amendments for debate. With amendment No 11, it will be convenient to debate amendment Nos 12, 15, 17, 20 and 21.

New Clause

Paul Frew (DUP, North Antrim)

I beg to move amendment No 11:

After clause 98 insert

"Amendments to the Firearms (Northern Ireland) Order 2004

Amendments to the Firearms (Northern Ireland) Order 2004: firearm certificates

98A.—(1) The Firearms (Northern Ireland) Order 2004 is amended as follows.

(2) In Article 11 (variation of firearm certificate), at the end insert?—

“(1) If a person?—

(a) sells a rifle (“the first rifle”) to the holder of a firearms dealer's certificate (“the dealer”); and

(b) as part of the same transaction purchases a rifle (“the second rifle”) from him,

the dealer may vary that person's firearm certificate by substituting the second rifle for the first rifle in accordance with the prescribed bands contained in Schedule 9 to this Order.

(2) The Secretary of State may introduce additional calibres to the bands contained in Schedule 9 if it is considered appropriate to do so for the purposes of improving the variation process.”.

(3) For Schedule 6 (Fees), substitute the Schedule set out in Schedule 6B to this Act.

(4) After Schedule 8, insert as Schedule 9 (Bands) the Schedule set out in Schedule 6C to this Act.".

The following amendments stood on the Marshalled List:

No 12: After clause 98 insert

"Amendments to the Firearms (Northern Ireland) Order 2004: young shooters

98B. In the Firearms (Northern Ireland) Order 2004 in Schedule 1 (firearm certificates – exemptions)?—

(a) after sub-paragraph (3)(b) of paragraph 9, insert?—

“(ba) have an air gun in his possession without a firearm certificate unless he has attained the age of 11 and is, at all times, under the supervision of a person who has attained the age of 25 and who has held a firearm certificate for an airgun of that type for at least five years;”; and

(b) for sub-paragraph (3) of paragraph 11, substitute?—

“(3) Subject to sub-paragraph (4), sub-paragraphs (1) and (2) do not apply in relation to a person who is under the age of 11.

(4) Persons aged 11 or older but under 18 must, at all times, be supervised by a person who has attained the age of 25 and who has held a firearm certificate for a shotgun of that type for at least five years.”.". — [Mr Frew.]

No 15: In clause 103, page 71, line 9, after "96" insert "to 98 and 98B". — [Mr Frew.]

No 17: In clause 103, page 71, line 12, at end insert

"(1A) Section 98A and Schedules 6B and 6C shall come into operation 90 days after this Act receives Royal Assent.". — [Mr Frew.]

No 20: After schedule 6 insert

"SCHEDULE 6B

SCHEDULE SUBSTITUTED FOR SCHEDULE 6 TO THE FIREARMS (NORTHERN IRELAND) ORDER 2004

“SCHEDULE 6

FEES

Firearm certificate

1.Grant or renewal of firearm certificate £88

2. Variation by Chief Constable on application of holder (except as mentioned in paragraph 3) £26

3. Variation by Chief Constable to substitute one firearm for another of the same calibre or type £17

4. Duplicate firearm certificate £14

5. Variation by a Registered Firearms Dealer £12

Museum firearms licence

6. Grant of museum firearms licence by the Department of Justice £125

7. Extension of museum firearms licence granted by the Department of Justice to additional premises £75

Visitor’s firearm permit

8. Grant of visitor's firearm permit (except where paragraph 8 applies) £18

9. Grant of six or more visitor's firearm permits (taken together) on a group application £60

Firearms dealer’s certificate

10. Grant or renewal of firearms dealer’s certificate £380

11. Duplicate firearms dealer’s certificate £14

Firearms club

12. Grant or renewal of authorisation £95

Game fair permit

13. Grant of game fair permit £15

These fees will not be increased for a period of at least 5 years from the date of commencement.”.’

— [Mr Frew.]

New Schedule

No 21: After schedule 6 insert

"SCHEDULE 6C

SCHEDULE INSERTED AS SCHEDULE 9 TO THE FIREARMS (NORTHERN IRELAND) ORDER 2004

“SCHEDULE 9

Article 11.

BANDS

Band

Calibre

1. Small quarry air rifles .

177 - .25

2. Small quarry

.17 Mach 2

.17 HMR

.22 LR

.22 WMR

3. Medium quarry Centre Fire

.17 Centre Fire

.22 Hornet

.222

.204 Ruger

.223/5.56

.220 Swift

.22/250

4. Large quarry Centre F

.243

25/06

6.5mm x 55/256

7mm x 08

.270

7.62 x 51/.308

30/06

Rules for Banded System

1. The banded system applies to firearms conditioned for dual use, eg. field use and for target use in a PSNI approved target club.

2. All handguns are excluded including personal protection weapons.

3. All muzzle loading and black powder firearms are excluded.

4. Any firearm which is “on-loan” can be exchanged under the banded system.

5. A person under a 6 month supervisory condition can still exchange a firearm for another firearm within the same band. The initial supervisory condition will remain in force until the remainder of 6 month supervisory period has been completed.

6. When changing within a band, a change cannot be made to a firearm of a calibre which the individual already holds for the same good reason.

Any transactions outside of these rules must be carried out under the normal variation process.”." — [Mr Frew.]

Paul Frew (DUP, North Antrim)

Let me say at the outset that it is not preferable to table amendments, and even new clauses, at Further Consideration Stage. We recognise and acknowledge that for the record. However, because the Bill has such a wide scope, we have taken the opportunity to do that. We feel that tabling these amendments and bringing this issue to a head has focused minds. Over the last number of days or the last week, a number of meetings with DOJ officials, PSNI officials, the firearms industry, the shooting fraternity and the sport have taken us to the point at which there is a level of understanding and compromise, and a new level and spirit of cooperation. That has been very heartening, to say the least. I commend the Minister, the DOJ and PSNI officials for, eventually, coming to the table and negotiating with the industry and the sport to the point at which, I believe, a lot has been achieved and agreed over the last number of days. So, I speak in a positive spirit and one of compromise. I believe that we have resolutions to these taxing issues that have been to the forefront of the sport's and the industry's mind for many years.

It is also important to put on record that the British Association for Shooting and Conservation (BASC), the Gun Trade Guild Northern Ireland and the Countryside Alliance completed work with DOJ and PSNI officials. They also worked with us, the MLAs on the Justice Committee, and the DOJ officials to bring this to a compromise position and, hopefully, a future resolution. I commend all three organisations, the sport and the industry for the work that they have done. They worked tirelessly and put in long hours at meetings with officials over the last week to get a resolution. I commend them for that.

Paul Givan (DUP, Lagan Valley)

I appreciate the Member giving way. In commending the industry, which has been proactive in trying to find a resolution, I express my disappointment that it has taken MLAs to table amendments and act as the catalyst for the Department to step forward and positively engage in an issue that has dogged the Committee for quite a number of years. Certainly, when I was there, we were going round in circles, and progress was not being made. That is why amendments needed to be tabled. I commend Members for taking the initiative and acting in the spirit that they now do, having, hopefully, reached a resolution. I trust that that will be borne out by the Minister's comments shortly and that the next Justice Bill will properly reflect that. Failing that, I ask the Member, in moving this amendment, to assure us that, if things are not carried through in good faith, we will table amendments to the next Bill, and we will go ahead and vote, and we will take the decisions that should have been taken a long time ago.

Paul Frew (DUP, North Antrim)

I thank the Member for his contribution. I assure him that there is now, I believe, a spirit of people working together. I believe that the DOJ and PSNI officials know the strength of feeling in the Committee, as they always have done, and they know that we are prepared to do as much as we possibly can to bring this issue to the forefront and, more importantly, to resolve it. That is why we tabled these amendments at this stage: we had the courage to do that to bring it to this point. I commend the negotiations and the spirit in which the DOJ, the PSNI and the Minister have brought the compromise forward. I believe that we are so very close. If it is indeed the case that members of the Justice Committee may well have to bring amendments to forthcoming and new Bills, we reserve the right to do so, but I believe that that may not need to happen because of the position that the Minister and his officials have now taken. I commend them on it.

Tom Elliott (UUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

I thank the Member for giving way. I just want to query the way in which he is speaking, because it sounds as if the amendments will not now be moved. Is that correct?

Paul Frew (DUP, North Antrim)

Again, we will wait to see what the Minister says, but I come before the House in a spirit of compromise and goodwill, and I believe that that goodwill should be replicated throughout the House today.

The amendments in question refer to new clauses, which I will go into some detail on. One of them is on the banded system, which is to do with the calibre and type of firearm. Amendment No 12 refers to young shots. Amendment Nos 15 and 17 concern commencement, with the young shots provision commencing after Royal Assent and that on fees and the banded system commencing 90 days after Royal Assent. Amendment Nos 20 and 21 concern new schedules to be placed in the Firearms Order 2004.

Shooting is worth £2 billion a year to the UK economy and provides significant conservation benefits, according to the results of an independent report conducted by Public and Corporate Economic Consultants (PACEC). The report, which was released in June 2014, found that shooting is worth £28 million annually to the Northern Ireland economy and that shooting influences the management of approximately 69,000 hectares, which is approximately the same hectarage of land owned by Northern Ireland's Forest Service.

Statistics from that report confirm that there are approximately 59,500 firearm certificate holders in Northern Ireland, roughly 2% of whom are female. Going by the last available statistics, the average age of a firearms certificate holder in Northern Ireland is 53. The minimum age at which a young person can be granted a firearms certificate that will allow them to shoot under supervision is currently 16. The minimum age for supervised shooting without a firearms certificate is 18. There are roughly 35 firearms certificate holders between the ages of 16 and 18.

Those are some of the statistics that show how the sport and industry impact on and are good for Northern Ireland. I want to repeat that the sport itself is worth £28 million annually to the Northern Ireland economy.

I will take Members through the banded system, although I do not intend to speak too much on these, because they are schedules that are, of course, complicated in nature. However, I will give a wee bit of context. At the minute, our system is such that if you want a variation on your firearm, you need to apply for it. That means sending away your firearms certificate along with a four-page application form and possibly even a new land permission letter, depending on how the original land permission was written and granted.

The applicant would have to then wait until his new certificate was returned from the PSNI before collecting his new firearm, and, in most cases, the dealer would also be waiting till that time to receive payment. That would cause problems with cash flow, and it would also cause problems with dealers holding that firearm, because he or she will have roles in the storage and with the number of firearms that he or she can have in stock. So, there are issues. There is also an issue with the length of time that it takes the PSNI to bring forward the new firearms certificates, and, of course, there is a great burden on the firearms and explosives branch of the PSNI to change the certificates and to grant new ones. An awful lot of time and effort is spent on that.

As has been agreed in compromise, if you like, with the DOJ officials and the PSNI, we propose that we move to a banded system. That will mean that all the transactions will need to be carried out by a dealer at the new PSNI fee of £15 — I think that was the figure in the fee structure that it proposed — and the dealer will then fax or email the relevant form. That might be two forms, depending on the outcome of further discussions with the PSNI firearms and explosives branch. It will then send a fax or email to update its records, and the applicant will get his new firearm on the same day, and the dealer will get payment. That will reduce the burden of bureaucracy and the level of work needed to amend certificates.

I believe that is a compromise position and one whereby we will be able to apply common sense. The onus and responsibility will be on the firearms dealer to do that appropriately and correctly. It will save the PSNI time and paperwork and will reduce bureaucracy. Basically, in the banded system, there will be a series of bands with similar-sized calibres of weapons and firearms within each. You will be able to go to your firearms dealer and exchange a weapon of similar calibre, size and scale and not have to then get an amendment on your firearms certificate. That will be vital for the sport and the industry going forward. I do not intend to speak too much on the banded system — I know that my colleagues may want to come in with more detail on that — but the compromise proposal for the banded system is that there will be four bands with similar-sized calibres in each. That is a common-sense approach that I believe all players have now adopted and agreed to move forward.

The other amendments on fees are about substituting another schedule in the Firearms Order 2004 for a new series of fees. I must say that I commend the industry and the sporting fraternity for coming up with a realistic approach to the fees. It has not been the case that we just do not want to pay; there has been a realistic and holistic approach to all the fees. It includes adding new fees, because they recognise the burden that there may well be on the PSNI in administering some of them. I applaud the industry and the sport for bringing forward the compromise proposals and, of course, the DOJ and the PSNI for agreeing a compromise position on that.

There are still issues to be resolved, one being any imminent review of some of the fees, especially the grant for the firearms dealers. I think £300 or thereabouts is mentioned in there somewhere. There is the issue of cost recovery, and the Minister may well reserve the right to review that. That is OK, but we would be worried about the outcome of that review. If we are talking about full cost recovery to a body like the PSNI, which we know is one of the most expensive, if not the most expensive, constabularies in the UK for administering fees, it would be unfair to burden the industry with full cost recovery. Rather than the fee be kept high, thus allowing the PSNI to rest on its laurels when it comes to full cost recovery, I would much rather see a challenge laid down to the PSNI to make sure that it becomes more efficient at delivering the service and for the Minister to set a fee that will put pressure on the PSNI to reach that level of efficiency. There is an opportunity for the Minister to drive down cost, and I hope that he embraces that with a whole heart.

There is another issue that worries me about fees. When people who use firearms apply for a certificate, they may have to pay a cost for applying, as opposed to paying a fee to get the certificate. That is something that I worry about, and I ask the Minister to address that point, because, if you have already paid for an application for a certificate and it has been refused, that may put a burden on the appeals system. I believe that something like 1·2% or 2% of the population who apply for a certificate are refused. Some will be refused on very good grounds, and we do not want those people who have been refused to appeal and eventually get a certificate. They will, however, have nothing to lose by going through an appeals mechanism. That in itself may put an unnecessary, unexpected burden on the PSNI firearms and explosives branch, which would negate the fact that people have to pay up front for an application for a certificate. That is something that I am concerned about.

I will move on to the third aspect of our amendments, which concerns the young shots. The debate about young people having supervised access to shotguns and airguns has been rumbling on since the mid 1990s. Let me make it clear that not every young person wants to hold or fire a firearm. For some, it will not be of any interest to them at all. Most of our young people will be listening to music and following boy bands. Some may even follow the Spice Girls. I want to put it on the Hansard record that I think that the Justice Committee Chairman's favourite band is the Spice Girls.

[Laughter.]

William Humphrey (DUP, Belfast North)

You should really give way to him.

Paul Frew (DUP, North Antrim)

I will gladly give way if he wants to confirm that rumour.

Alastair Ross (DUP, East Antrim)

I will leave it until my contribution.

Paul Frew (DUP, North Antrim)

Most young people will be following boy bands and doing all those sorts of things, but some in our community will be massively interested in the sport of shooting. It is important that those young people be given that opportunity, just as their colleagues and fellow competitors in GB are. They may well be able to go to the Commonwealth Games and the Olympics to compete for their country in shooting, and they may bring back some medals. Of course, if they do, we will be the first to stand up in the Chamber and congratulate them on that.

William Humphrey (DUP, Belfast North)

Will the Member give way on that point?

Paul Frew (DUP, North Antrim)

Yes, I will.

William Humphrey (DUP, Belfast North)

Does the Member agree with me that one of the most consistent performers from the Northern Ireland team at the Commonwealth Games has been a Mr David Calvert? Over two decades, he has brought a number of medals back to Northern Ireland on behalf of the Northern Ireland Commonwealth Games team. Does he agree that that is a perfect example of the point that he is making?

Paul Frew (DUP, North Antrim)

Yes, and I thank the Member for his contribution. He is quite right. We have a thriving sporting fraternity in this country. We have a good and responsible industry, and it needs to be enhanced and grown. I believe that our amendments will do that, and I hope that the Minister sees fit to do something about them in the next vehicle that he proposes. We await with interest to hear what the Minister has to say.

In late 2006, many organisations responded to a consultation on young people and licensed firearms. Each responded with an emphasis that reflected its particular area of expertise and interest. However, the main shooting organisations, together with those political parties that responded and many others, were united in their desire to see our young people participate and compete in sporting shooting on a more equal footing. There is a strong body of opinion that says that it is desirable for young people to learn safe firearms use at an early age rather than later in their teens. There is no evidence whatsoever to show that the supervised use of firearms by children and young people of any age poses any detrimental effects to public safety. Young people in Northern Ireland are unreasonably disadvantaged compared with those in Great Britain where no such minimum age exists. Many young shot have gone on to win medals at international events, including the Commonwealth and Olympic Games.

When it comes to the use of licensed shotguns and air rifles, the law in Northern Ireland is not only inconsistent in itself but also when compared with the opportunities afforded to young people in the rest of the UK, where no minimum age exists. The amendments would give young people in Northern Ireland a compromise step towards equality with their peers in Great Britain without having any adverse consequences to public safety.

The objective of the amendment is to make a modest adjustment to the Firearms (Northern Ireland) Order 2004 to allow young people to use shotguns and air guns under robust supervision in order to ensure public safety. This change is intended to bring to our young people in Northern Ireland a degree of fairness and equality with their peers in GB where no minimum age exists and no problems have been encountered. At the outset, I stress that the BASC, the Gun Trade Guild Northern Ireland and the Countryside Alliance Ireland are at one with the PSNI and the Department in striving to ensure public safely and the integrity of the Northern Ireland firearms licensing system. They are also fully committed to the pursuit of equality that will allow young people in Northern Ireland to be taught safe discipline and respect for firearms under supervision during their formative years.

The Minister and his Department will be aware that, in 2012, a petition run jointly by BASC, the Countryside Alliance Ireland and the Gun Trade Guild Northern Ireland gathered nearly 3,000 signatures in support of a reduction in the age at which young people can be taught to shoot under supervision. Indeed, the Assembly already voted on the issue in March 2011 when it voted for no minimum age for supervised shooting. The amendment introduces a minimum age of 11 for supervised shooting and the robust supervision criteria of 25 years of age with five years' experience. The robust supervision criteria set out in the amendment are over and above the existing supervisory requirements of the Firearms Order, which states that supervisors must have attained the age of 21 and have held a firearms certificate for a firearm of that description for at least three years.

Those enhanced supervision criteria mean that those responsible for supervising the young person at 11 years or older whilst they are shooting must be at least 25 years of age with at least five years' experience with that particular type of firearm. It also means that the supervisor, who must also hold a firearms certificate for a firearm being used, will have been through the PSNI vetting process on at least two occasions; once on initial application and then at the five-year renewal point. The certificate holder may also have been through the vetting process on further occasions if they had submitted any variations to their existing firearms holding. That means that the PSNI's firearms and explosives branch will have been able to scrutinise the certificate holder's ammunition usage to ensure that they have sufficient experience to be a supervisor. That is in contrast to the situation in GB, where there is no requirement for the adult supervisor to be a current firearms certificate holder. Also in GB, the supervisor is required to be 21, not 25 as stated in our amendment.

I have spoken enough on these amendments. I want the House to recognise that we realise that bringing forward amendments and a new section to the Justice Bill would not have been the preferred choice. We tended to give officials and the industry as much time as possible to come to a resolution and a compromise solution. I believe that we have gained that, and I hope to hear from the Minister later on those issues. I also hope that the spirit, which has transformed the talks and negotiations over the last number of weeks, will continue and that we will see the issues resolved once and for all through whatever vehicle the Minister chooses. I hope that it will be through the Justice (No. 2) Bill, and I hope and wish that he speaks on that as much as he can today.

I bring these amendments to the House in the full knowledge that we may well be asking for withdrawal, and I hope that the Members opposite and the parties across this Chamber will see the spirit in which we have brought these amendments, the spirit in which we have helped the industry and DOJ officials come to a conclusion and a resolution and that they embrace that spirit moving forward.

Alastair Ross (DUP, East Antrim)

The Committee first considered proposals by the Department of Justice to increase the firearms licensing fees and make other miscellaneous amendments to the Firearms (Northern Ireland) Order 2004, including the age of young shooters, in May 2012. However, disagreements around firearms go back, under the Committee chairmanship of Lord Morrow, as far as the devolution of policing and justice powers to the Assembly in 2010; and during an intervention, my predecessor Paul Givan mentioned the difficulties there were when he chaired the Committee as well.

Nevertheless, over the last three years, since May 2012, the Committee has taken a wide range of written and oral evidence on the proposals from departmental and Police Service of Northern Ireland officials and from all the key firearms stakeholders, including the following: the British Association for Shooting and Conservation; the Gun Trade Guild Northern Ireland; the Countryside Alliance Ireland; the Deer Society; the Northern Ireland Firearms Dealers and Shooters Association; the Ulster Clay Pigeon Shooting Association; and the Northern Ireland Federation of Shooting Sports.

It is worthwhile to give a brief background and timeline to the issue in order to inform the House and perhaps give it a flavour of why so many members of the Committee have become increasingly frustrated about the lack of progress on the issue. In October 2013, having considered all the evidence it had received, the Committee advised the Minister that it viewed the level of the proposed fee increases to be too high and unrealistic, and, therefore, would not support them. The Committee was also very concerned about the lack of communication between PSNI firearms licensing branch and the key stakeholder groups, and the apparent breakdown in relationships between the two.

The Committee advised the Department to engage with the key stakeholders to achieve a collaborative way forward on fees and on the introduction of a banded system for firearms. The Committee also indicated that, in its view, supervision should be the key element in relation to young shooters, and the criteria should be based on that, and highlighted that the Assembly had already taken a position on the issue in the Justice Act (Northern Ireland) 2011.

Departmental officials returned to the Committee in June 2014 with revised proposals for fees and other firearms issues. The Department proposed to introduce an interim fee for licences, which would be reviewed to secure full cost recovery in about 18 months, with a commitment to involve the shooting associations and other key stakeholders at all stages of the review. Proposals for a banded system had also been developed on which the Department intended to consult the shooting organisations.

Discussions with officials centred around lack of consensus with the key stakeholders on the proposals, the further work undertaken to assess the fee required to achieve full cost recovery, including the following: the work carried out by DFP consultancy services; the processes carried out by firearms licensing branch on how efficient the firearms licensing process really was, and why the Department did not adopt a consultative model that included proper discussions with the key stakeholders who are involved in the trade and, therefore, understand best how it operates.

After the briefing, the Committee wrote to the Minister expressing its concern and frustration regarding the lack of progress in resolving the issues and requested further information on how the proposed cost of granting or renewing a firearms certificate had been arrived at. The Committee also asked for information on how the Department had engaged with the key stakeholders and planned to engage with them moving forward.

The Minister subsequently responded providing additional information and indicated that the firearms fees proposals were being reassessed by DFP consultancy service, which would include putting the process map in a form similar to that used by the Home Office.

Once that work was completed, it would be the subject of discussion at a fees workshop planned for October 2014.

In March 2015, departmental officials provided an update on the current position, which included the Minister’s final proposals on the age of young shooters and the banded system. It was also the first time that I was introduced to Mr McGlone's rather intimidating large book, which is full of information on different calibres, cartridges, muzzle energy and velocity and everything else that one could think of.

With regard to the fees proposals, the officials indicated that, following a workshop with stakeholders, further work on a number of aspects, including the number of visits, travel times and the role of firearms enquiry officers, was being carried out. The work was due to be completed shortly and another workshop would be convened with stakeholders, following which, final-fee proposals would be presented to the Committee.

The Committee received requests from several of the key stakeholders to brief the Committee on the Department’s proposals, and those briefings took place on 28 May. During the briefing by the British Association for Shooting and Conservation (BASC), the Gun Trade Guild NI and the Countryside Alliance Ireland, the Committee was presented with alternative proposals on the firearms licensing fees, the banded system and the age of young shooters. The Committee agreed to refer the proposals to the Department of Justice for its consideration.

Whilst I have taken some time to set out the scrutiny that the Committee has undertaken in relation to the firearms issue, as I said, it is worth providing that background for the record. The Committee has spent considerable time on these issues over the last three years without a satisfactory resolution from the Department. The frustration of members with the delay in resolving those issues was clearly apparent, with some taking the opportunity to propose amendments to the Bill in an attempt to bring matters to a conclusion. Following the postponement of the debate on this matter last week, there was a further opportunity for discussion between the main stakeholders before this debate.

And so we arrived at the Justice Committee meeting last Thursday. I had one of those feelings last Thursday: the sun was shining, the birds were singing and Mr Frew entered the Committee room with a skip in his step and a twinkle in his eye. I could have sworn that Mr McGlone was humming along the corridor as he came in — I do not know whether it was a Spice Girls song he was humming, but perhaps something from the Glasgow heavy rock band Gun would have been more appropriate to sing. Although Mr Poots was not there, I had a sense that, no matter where he was, there was a smile on his face. And so it came to be that, when officials took their places to brief the Committee on the latest position, harmony broke out. After years and years of disagreement, departmental officials and the PSNI indicated that, following a further meeting with stakeholders' groups, a way forward on the bands and conditions had been reached and that agreement had also been reached on the firearms licensing fees.

It therefore appears that the amendments in the names of Mr McGlone, Mr Frew and Mr Poots have been successful in focusing minds and getting closer to a conclusion. Given the length of time these matters have been under consideration, the Committee is obviously pleased that a consensus has been reached between the Department and key stakeholders on at least two of the three main issues, and I look forward to the Minister confirming later in the debate that that is the position.

Raymond McCartney (Sinn Féin, Foyle)

Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. The Chair has laid out, in very cogent terms, the approach taken by the Committee. It is fair to say that many members of the Committee were frustrated and felt that time could have been better employed — let us not say it was "wasted" — since May 2012, as was pointed out by the Committee Chair.

As he said on Thursday, the Department appeared to put on the table a package that addresses most of the main concerns outlined by the amendments. Certainly, we welcome that part of it. There are obviously some aspects that will return as we go forward, and we will hold our position until then.

I understand well that the proposers of the amendments will feel that, although Further Consideration Stage was not an appropriate time for the amendments, they certainly focused minds. I make the general point to this Minister and all other Ministers that that is not the way we should be conducting business. If there are issues to be addressed, they should be addressed appropriately so that people are not accused of using Further Consideration Stage in an inappropriate way, even if, for them, it is a very legitimate way. That is what we have to do.

It was an interesting issue, even in the earlier debate on the proposal tabled by Edwin Poots and Paul Givan. On that, we expressed our reservations on the proposal itself and on it being tabled at Further Consideration Stage. Whatever your view of the amendments and their content, they required more public scrutiny.

The fear is that the commentary and focus has been on a number of issues that were brought in at Further Consideration Stage. This Justice Bill dates back a long time. The Committee report is three volumes long and contains over 1,000 pages of evidence, so good due diligence was provided to every aspect and every clause. Last week, I made the point to the Minister in the debate that we accept that the nature of justice Bills is such that they nearly become miscellaneous Bills, so that, at Further Consideration Stage, almost anything can be brought in. People object to the introduction of petitions of concern, but, in this instance, I think that it is a legitimate enough use of Assembly rules to allow us at least to say to people that, when we make law here, it is done in a proper way, notwithstanding, as we saw with Lord Morrow's Bill and the Chair's amendment on early prison release, there are occasions when it is appropriate because we missed something. I do not think that Bills should be used as a catch-all, and we will certainly speak to that in the future.

Patsy McGlone (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Mid Ulster)

Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. Mo bhuíochas as ucht an seans labhairt ar an Bhille seo. Mr Deputy Speaker, I thank you for the opportunity to speak on this legislation.

Mr Frew covered a lot of ground, and I do not intend to go over all that again, other than to say that I have been on the Justice Committee for quite a while, as the Chair said. I have to say that there were times when you felt like going ballistic. Eventually, as he referred to the book, I did.

A number of people have been extremely helpful, which should be publicly placed on the record. The organisations are the Gun Trade Guild, BASC and the Countryside Alliance. I will go as far as naming the individuals: David Robinson, Tommy Mayne, Laura Morrison and, indeed, Lyall Plant. They provided us with invaluable guidance and information throughout and proved very helpful, including more recently, as we move towards a resolution of the issue.

As Mr Frew mentioned, we are dealing with a number of issues, particularly a revised fees structure, to deliver an efficient and effective service, which is very important. Through our constituency offices, many of us pick up on issues, probably because of our association with, and the acknowledged fact that we participate in, country sports. Those could be variations or re-grants and the amount of time taken to do that. When you make further enquiries of some of the staff, whom I always find to be efficient in their dealings with me, sometimes things have been forgotten about or delayed, so efficiency is required. When people pay for something, they expect an efficient service without elongated delays. That is an important factor. If extra fees are to be paid, people will expect a good, efficient service.

The banding system is very important, and, indeed, it is good that we are moving into the realm of common sense because, up until now, a banding system — you could loosely call it that — one-off, one-on existed for shotguns of whatever calibre. That has been extended. So that people understand what that is about, you could have a situation whereby you retained an air rifle of.177 calibre. If you wanted to replace that with an air rifle of .22 calibre, you had to go into a shop, do all the paperwork and apply to PSNI headquarters, firearms and explosives licensing branch, for a variation. A fee was associated with that. Under this set of proposals, we have small quarry air rifles, small quarry rim fire rifles, medium quarry centre fire rifles and large quarry centre fire rifles. The idea is that, within those bands, you can pay your fee and walk out the door with that firearm, and, indeed, air arms are referred to as firearms in the legislation. That, in itself, will make it a lot easier for people. We hear quite often from firearms dealers that the delay in processing that — something that should be a relatively simple issue — is costing them money because they do not have the turnaround time that they should have. Of course, in all of that, safety and security must be paramount, but, having had discussions with the Minister and, more recently, his officials, I feel that we have come to a conclusion on a methodology of working that system.

An awful lot of time has been expended on this, and Mr McCartney just referred to that. I can understand, at one level, the sheer frustration — we heard some of it — that members of the Committee felt. More importantly, I can understand the frustration of stakeholder groups. I attended a couple of stakeholder meetings at which the penny did not seem to drop with some people that there was a solution. The manifestation of this resolution today is a key example of people working together, arriving at conclusions and using the democratic process to facilitate that.

The provision for young shooters —

Paul Frew (DUP, North Antrim)

Will the Member give way?

Patsy McGlone (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Mid Ulster)

Yes, sure.

Paul Frew (DUP, North Antrim)

Before you get off the issue of the banded system and the fee structure, it is important to emphasise that there should be good communication and consultation with stakeholders by DOJ and PSNI. If you look at the past, even the recent past of the firearms dealers' security specification, you see that 17 firearms dealers have gone out of business over the last year — some, undoubtedly, because of that security spec. That is one example of how DOJ and PSNI should not conduct business.

Patsy McGlone (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Mid Ulster)

Yes, and I believe that now, eventually, a more pragmatic approach has been taken to that. I hope that, on the issue of dealers' fees, accommodation can be made for a person who works in firearm repair or sells ammunition but does not retain a significant or substantial stock of firearms. I trust that the Minister will refer to that later, too.

Obviously, we will not pursue the amendment that relates to young shooters. Reference was made to the sporting talent of the many people from the entire island of Ireland who are in the clay pigeon shooting body, and, indeed, those involved in target sports, but, for them to move up and learn, they have to start somewhere. Yes, accommodation is being made for clay pigeon shooting, but let us not forget the many wildfowlers who contribute so much to the economy and the environment through the activities of their clubs. They, too, must be nurtured.

Mr Frew referred to the average age of a person who holds a firearms certificate at the moment. We must encourage more people not only to come along and participate in country sports but, through their participation, to contribute to the environment and the ecology. That is very important and should not go unnoticed.

One other issue — I moved slightly off it, and I realise that the Minister may well clarify it — is the whole question of target shooting, dual use and how that is facilitated in the banding system. I know that it had become an issue, and I require some clarity.

People will be looking to today's debate and will have looked at the contributions made at Committee meetings. They will ask, "Well, that's fine and good, but when can this happen?" Therefore, some detail of what is being proposed would be most welcome. As well as that, the time frame will be crucial to the industry, to people interested in country sports and, indeed, to us as public representatives who have seen so much of this through.

Despite the earlier and, indeed, justified criticism of the lack of movement — I do not know whether it was through lack of knowledge, lack of comprehension or just an unwillingness to move, for whatever reason — we have moved to a good place.

We have moved to a good place, a position where accommodation and pragmatism have set in and where the feeling is that, through that collaboration and cooperation, we have arrived at a resolution.

I look forward to hearing more from the Minister. I thank him for his more recent cooperation and indeed that of his officials, who, with the focus that was brought to bear, worked with the various stakeholder organisations to bring us to this point.

Tom Elliott (UUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

Obviously, there is some sort of movement towards a level of resolution on these amendments. I welcome that because, having been on the Committee for some time, I know that this debate has gone on for quite a long time. I had been hoping that we would come to a conclusion with the Department at a much earlier stage than this, simply because I feel that it has rolled on and on. I understand from Mr Frew that, while it is not totally certain yet, there may be withdrawal of these amendments at this stage. I suppose that, for now, I will just look at them as though they are being moved. I have a few issues to raise.

Three main aspects have been outlined. The first is the banding system. I fully support the proposals for the banding system. I think that they are practical and reasonable. I should declare an interest as someone who holds a firearms certificate — for a legally held firearm, I should say as well. I think that the banded system is quite reasonable. We have heard Mr McGlone give a flavour here today of what he has told us in Committee. I can assure the House that it is a very small flavour of what he usually goes through. I think that I have learnt more about banding systems and firearms than I ever knew. I have probably forgotten most of what Mr McGlone told us. He certainly is a world of knowledge on it. He did have quite a good insight into those banding systems. Certainly, from what I have heard and learnt previously, I think that the proposals within this amendment are quite reasonable. I hope that the Department is going towards that.

I had one query about amendment No 11. Paragraph 2 of subsection 2 of the new clause states that:

"The Secretary of State may introduce additional calibres to the bands contained in Schedule 9".

I am just wondering whether it is the role of the Secretary of State or the Department to do that. I am not sure. Maybe Mr Frew or whoever makes the winding-up speech will deal with that.

The second issue is around the fee structure. I have always been quite clear that the level of increase that was being looked for by the Department was unreasonable in the sense that it was saying that there was full cost recovery. I was always keen to hear where efficiencies could be made and whether that had been looked at in real terms in the Department and the Police Service and they had found enough efficiencies within their service. I can tell you that, a few years ago, I was in the building where the firearms certificates are dealt with. I saw piles upon piles of firearms certificates just sitting there, not really going anywhere or anything being done with them. I just felt that a lot more work could have been done in managing that system. I am not convinced that that was clearly all carried out.

The actual fee that is being proposed in this amendment is a 75% increase. As Mr Frew says, it is not all one way. They are, in fact, looking at a practical and realistic resolution to this by allowing a 75% increase. I do not think that that is an unreasonable amount from the Department's point of view. Indeed, some firearms certificate holders may feel that it is unreasonable to look for a 75% increase, but I have to say that, in real terms, it is probably a good balance.

I was interested in the discussion on the third aspect of these amendments; the young shooters or, as Mr Frew called them, "the young shots". I have no idea where the reference to or introduction of the Spice Girls came into this. I do not know whether they are planning to rename that band The Young Shooters or something like that, but certainly it seemed slightly out of context in the debate.

The reality of it is, which was mentioned, is that we need to train our young people in the sport of shooting at a much earlier stage to compete at the very highest level throughout the world. I think that there is a good argument for allowing people in very controlled circumstances to shoot at a much earlier stage.

I note that the amendment is not allowing young people of 11 years old or up to 18 to hold a firearms certificate. It is allowing them to carry out the shooting only under very controlled circumstances with someone aged 25 years and older and with five years' shooting experience. So, they were putting a very high bar on that, of which, in general terms, I am supportive.

I was concerned about the existing legislation, the 2004 Order, which was being captured within that. That order says:

"A person may, without holding a firearm certificate, use a shotgun at a time and place approved by the Chief Constable for shooting at artificial targets."

I would be quite interested to know and to hear from the Minister what the criteria are and how high the bar is for those places approved by the Chief Constable. I am assuming that that may exclude quite a number of rural clay pigeon shooting clubs. I do not know that, but I would be interested to hear about it from either the Minister or whoever is making a winding-up speech on the amendments, just to get an idea of the areas and places that would have allowed young shooters of 11 years and upwards and to see whether it excluded some of those who may want to improve their shooting skills or get into the sport at a young age and, hopefully, into significant competitions.

In general, I agree with and am supportive of the broad principles, or the three aspects, of the three amendments, which are probably not now going to be moved, but I still need clarification, even as we move forward.

Chris Lyttle (Alliance, Belfast East)

Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker, for the opportunity to speak on the final group of amendments. I am substituting for my learned colleague and Justice Committee member Stewart Dickson MLA today although, given that Paul Frew thinks that young people are listening to the Spice Girls, I may be doing so from a slightly more informed position than I thought. Indeed, I was expecting a slightly more contemporary calibre of cultural references, given that the Committee Chairperson also referenced a 1960's heavy metal band. However, that is something that they can consider in the round before taking a more targeted approach at the next stage.

I certainly express concerns on behalf of the Alliance Party about this group. Despite Paul Girvan's protestations about a lack of action on some of these issues, the Justice Committee will be aware that the Department of Justice is working towards the reform of shooting licensing laws in Northern Ireland. Those are issues that will be before the Committee and that can be given full and proper consideration in due course.

It does seem, therefore, that some Members have indeed jumped the gun on this occasion and sought to add amendments to the Further Consideration Stage of the Justice Bill rather than to allow that process to take its course. However, we heard a conciliatory contribution today, so there will be work to be done together on those issues.

Although it is, therefore, premature to go into too much detail on them, the Alliance Party believes that 11 years old is not an appropriate age for a child to be able to operate a firearm, or, indeed, to take part in live targeting, shooting and hunting. It is worth noting that the PSNI also indicated that it would have concerns about that proposition.

What is more appropriate is the departmental proposal, which, I understand, is for young shooters, beginning at the age of 12, to be restricted to inanimate object shooting. I understand that restricting young people to clay disciplines with shotguns can enable them to learn safe firearms handling in a controlled environment with suitable supervision. That would, of course, meet the desire of many people to introduce young people to the sport and permit the development of competitive shooting talent from a reduced age.

Indeed, it may be worth noting that evidence that was given to the Committee by the Deer Society noted:

"The risk of a mishap with a firearm while moving over rough ground ... is a real possibility especially if a child is carrying a shotgun which would be unwieldy for them and would tend to make recovery from a stumble difficult. The need for muzzle awareness, use of the safety catch and constant attention to safety drills is best learned in a closely supervised and controlled environment such as a clay shooting club over a period of years. These behaviours are likely [to] become embedded in the muscle memory and become automatic before progressing to hunting over open ground."

The Assembly should carefully consider that type of advice before progressing with such an amendment, and, indeed, it should consider the safety of our young people to be paramount. I therefore have concerns about the amendment and think that it should be given more full and proper consideration in due course.

Roy Beggs (UUP, East Antrim)

I must advise the Minister of Justice, Mr David Ford, that we may have to interrupt him for Question Time, which must occur at 2.00 pm.

David Ford (Alliance, South Antrim)

Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. I will take the hint.

In appreciation of the way in which the amendments were put forward by Mr Frew and spoken to by others, I need to make a few general points about issues on which I am still in slight disagreement, particularly the timing and manner of the amendments and the level of engagement that was already going on between the Department, the Committee and various interests, which go rather beyond the three organisations that were named on several occasions. However, we are where we are, and I will not labour those points.

Further Consideration Stage, at which there is no opportunity to get things right, is not a great point at which to introduce quite complex amendments. Indeed, as highlighted by Tom Elliott, there is a particular inadequacy in one of the amendments, which is an indication that a lot more work needed to be done. As I said, however, we are where we are, and I will proceed on my view, which has been informed by Chief Constable, but seek to reach an accommodation with the Committee and those Members who tabled the amendments. It is really unfortunate that, on aspects of banding and fees, we are very close to agreement but not quite there. Had the amendments been tabled at Consideration Stage, we might have been there by today.

I want to speak first to amendment No 11, the proposed new clause 98A, which covers the new banded exchange system for rifles and proposes a schedule of bands and a schedule of fees. I start by emphasising the point that it is absolutely clear that the banding proposals that we have in Northern Ireland go significantly beyond the practice in any other jurisdiction in these islands to the benefit of those who shoot and firearms dealers. As I said, I believe that we are very close on the banding issue, but it is not quite right. I trust that it will be possible for the amendment to be withdrawn and rectified for a future piece of legislation — ideally, as Mr Frew said, the Justice (No. 2) Bill, which I trust will be before the Assembly in the next week or so. Well, a week or a day.

A number of the shooting groups were content with the banding system that the Department put forward. The three groups that have been highlighted — the Gun Trade Guild, the Countryside Alliance and the BASC — were not happy and have produced their own proposals. I welcome the fact that we have got a realistic look at how bands will work, although my bands were more extensive that those that have been proposed.

I need to look at the flaws in what is proposed. On the point made by Tom Elliott, I can say that there is a specific reference in amendment No 11 to the Secretary of State being responsible for future amendments, yet, in every other respect, other than the issues of national security and prohibited weapons, all the Secretary of State's functions passed to the Department of Justice on devolution five years ago. Therefore, there is a provision for the Secretary of State, who does not actually have the power, and no provision for how it could be done. That is fundamental flaw that I suspect cannot be rectified. There is also a reference to bands being changed by addition only but not by subtraction, which would mean that it would not be possible to move a particular category from one band to another.

Again, I understand the motivation, but it is just not right when we are talking about legislation, which has to be right.

There was a reference to firearms exchanges being possible to allow somebody to hold two firearms of the same calibre as long as it is not for the same good reason. I accept that that is an attempt to deal realistically with the issue of the Chief Constable being required to assess that somebody has good reason to hold two firearms of a similar calibre. However, it is an issue for the Chief Constable and not a dealer to perform when the exchange is being made. I suspect that that also covers Mr McGlone's point about dual use and how exactly we deal with firearms that are used on ranges and elsewhere.

There are other rules and conditions around on-loan and dual-use firearms exchanges that might have some prospect of moving forward if we deal with the current difficulties surrounding the specific points made. I echo the comments of Mr Frew, the Committee Chair and others that, since the amendments were tabled, there has been helpful engagement between representatives of three of the shooting organisations and my officials. I also met the Members who tabled the amendment. If it does not proceed today, let me place it firmly on record that I will be prepared to modify my proposals, which exclude those aspects. The modification would allow for these categories to be included on the basis of a regime that involves, in effect, the authorisation of dealers to carry out banded work. They and, indeed, club secretaries would need advice and training. In addition, the police would need to be able to remove the permission for dealers to conduct banded transactions if they do not comply with the requirements. I welcome the fact that the dealers have dealt with that. There is a realistic prospect for moving forward in future, but it is not one that we can deal with today.

At this point, Mr Deputy Speaker, you may wish that I break here before going on to speak about fees.

Patsy McGlone (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Mid Ulster)

May I ask for a brief point of clarification, Mr Deputy Speaker? Is it correct that the banding system that has been referred to is the one suggested in annex B of the papers that were presented to the Committee for Justice? That was unclear to me.

David Ford (Alliance, South Antrim)

No. We would not agree to exactly what is proposed in the amendment, but it will be very similar to it. It has moved on as we have looked at different numbers of bandings from five to four. There was even a typographical error that, simply, does not provide an accurate description. It is in the context of rim fire and it says "rim f" and not "rim fire". There are problems with that from a technical point of view. We would be very close to the amendment that is proposed there, but we need to ensure that the work is done in detail before the next legislative opportunity. It will not very far from the four bands as currently proposed.

With your permission, Mr Deputy Speaker, I will break there and return to fees after Question Time.

Roy Beggs (UUP, East Antrim)

Question Time will commence at 2.00 pm. I suggest that the House briefly take its ease until then. The debate will continue after Question Time, when the Minister of Justice will finish his contribution.

The debate stood suspended.

(Mr Principal Deputy Speaker [Mr Newton] in the Chair)

Oral Answers to Questions — Office of the First Minister and deputy First Minister

Robin Newton (DUP, Belfast East)

We will start with listed questions. Before I call Mr Patsy McGlone, I welcome Miss Michelle McIlveen to her first Question Time in her role as junior Minister.

I call Mr McIlveen — sorry, Mr McGlone.

[Laughter.]

You are not as pretty.

Patsy McGlone (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Mid Ulster)

I might have changed, but not quite that much yet.

Patsy McGlone (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Mid Ulster)

1. Mr McGlone asked the First Minister and deputy First Minister for an update on the childcare strategy. (AQO 8431/11-15)

Arlene Foster (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

The first phase of the Executive's childcare strategy was launched in September 2013. It included 15 key first actions designed to address the main childcare needs identified through research and consultation. The greatest area of need identified was for school-age childcare services, breakfast clubs, after-school clubs and summer schemes aimed at the four-to-14 age group. The school-age childcare grant scheme, which former junior Minister Bell and junior Minister McCann launched in March 2014, was developed to address that need. It is creating new, low-cost, quality school-age childcare places and sustaining the places we already have. To date, the grant scheme has held two calls for applications, which have attracted 119 responses. Of those, 79 met the selection criteria and have been allocated £3 million over a three-year period. Those projects will sustain or create approximately 2,200 low-cost, quality childcare places, mostly in disadvantaged areas. A third call for applications will be held in the autumn. That will result in further low-cost childcare places being created.

Other key first actions have enhanced childcare services for children with a disability and improved the information available to parents on the childcare services available locally. Work to develop the full final childcare strategy is at an advanced stage. It has been developed on a co-design basis with full engagement with childcare stakeholders. We aim to issue the strategy for consultation in the coming weeks, with a view to publishing it before the end of the year.

Patsy McGlone (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Mid Ulster)

Go raibh maith agat, a Phríomh-LeasCheann Comhairle. Does the Minister accept that childcare costs are one of the most fundamental and crippling issues for many working families at the moment? It is an issue that faces many, especially young mums. They have to leave good places of work because it is costing them to pay for childcare. It is an issue for working families especially, and I ask the Minister to look deeply at it.

Arlene Foster (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

I thank the Member for those points. The twin aims of the childcare strategy are to promote child development — I think we all want to see that happening — and to enable parents to join the workforce. I know that he referred to people having to leave the workforce to deal with their childcare needs. The cost — in many cases, the high cost — of childcare is what the strategy has been trying to identify. It is certainly where the key actions have been focused. How do you deal with that? Do you deal with it through free childcare places or as a subsidy? What is the best way to deal with that issue? Those are the issues that the board has been looking at in relation to the full childcare strategy. That will be the key driver moving forward.

As the Member will know, social enterprises have been identified as a way of dealing with the issues in relation to having low-cost, affordable childcare, but there are many small private sector companies providing that as well. We need to ensure that we do not knock those small private sector companies out of the field by using other mechanisms to deliver good childcare. It is certainly the focus of the Department and will very much form part of the basis of the full childcare strategy.

Brenda Hale (DUP, Lagan Valley)

I thank the Minister for her answers so far. I was wondering whether we were examining the potential for extending the UK Government's plans to increase the hours of free childcare in England and Wales to Northern Ireland.

Arlene Foster (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

I thank the Member for her question. The details of the Prime Minister's proposals are still emerging and are still being developed. The Department will examine those proposals in detail to see if there is merit in having a similar initiative in Northern Ireland. I will say, however — this goes back to the original question — that the Department has been cautious about taking a simple subsidy or top-up approach to childcare here, because the international and national evidence suggests that the market often adjusts within a few years and that largely subsumes the top-up amounts so that, in fact, the price of childcare rises. That is not what we want to see happening; we want to ensure that more children can be accommodated in low-cost quality childcare that is accessible for their parents. That is true whether it is in an urban area or a rural area.

Chris Lyttle (Alliance, Belfast East)

Why, in a climate of such scarce resources, has OFMDFM failed to use around £8 million of a £12 million budget set aside for childcare in 2011-15? How will the proposed UK tax-free childcare scheme apply to Northern Ireland?

Arlene Foster (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

On the second point, as I said, the details in relation to the Prime Minister's announcement are still emerging. We will watch carefully to see whether there will be read-across to Northern Ireland or, indeed, there are merits to our adopting a scheme in Northern Ireland that is similar to what will happen in England and Wales. However, we must ensure that whatever we do is fit for purpose in Northern Ireland because, of course, we have a very rural community here. That is not taking away from the urban areas, but we have specific issues in Northern Ireland in relation to our rural community.

Of the money that was ring-fenced to support the development of the childcare strategy, £4·7 million has been allocated and £3·4 million has been spent. The balance will continue to be used to resource the key first actions of the childcare strategy. I do not think that it is correct to say that the fund has been underspent. We will continue to work through those key first actions and then the development of the full childcare strategy. As I have indicated, cost, in particular, and accessibility will be two of the main issues that we will look at in relation to the full strategy.

Sandra Overend (UUP, Mid Ulster)

Chris has touched on the question that I wanted to touch on. I am sure that the Minister will agree with me that, to increase the number of the economically active right across Northern Ireland, childcare should be a big priority for the Assembly. Will she assure us of her commitment to that?

Arlene Foster (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

Absolutely. Indeed, parents themselves have identified cost and accessibility as the principal barriers to getting, in particular, school-age childcare at an appropriate level. There seems to be more availability for preschool children but a dearth of childcare places for them once they go to school. That is something that we should be concerned about, because, of course, we need to enable parents, whether they are male or female, to enter the market for work and move ahead in that regard — if they so choose, as, of course, there are some who will want to remain at home with their children. Cost and accessibility are absolutely the key issues.

Robin Newton (DUP, Belfast East)

I must inform the House that questions 5, 9 and 13 have been withdrawn.

Barry McElduff (Sinn Féin, West Tyrone)

2. Mr McElduff asked the First Minister and deputy First Minister for an update on the racial equality strategy. (AQO 8432/11-15)

Arlene Foster (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

With your permission, Mr Principal Deputy Speaker, I will ask junior Minister Michelle McIlveen to answer the question.

Michelle McIlveen (DUP, Strangford)

Racial equality and good race relations are key aims for the Department and the Executive. The need for a strategy that not only helps us deliver these key aims but reflects people's aspirations and everyday concerns is an ambitious goal but one that we are determined to get right. Our 16-week public consultation instigated much discussion and elicited many opinions from right across society. Academics, trade unions, pressure groups, political parties, individuals, key stakeholders and church groups, amongst others, provided detailed contributions.

The analysis of those contributions has now been completed, and we are considering a revised draft of the strategy in light of it. The document will be considered by the Executive in due course before publication.

Barry McElduff (Sinn Féin, West Tyrone)

Go raibh maith agat. I thank junior Minister McIlveen for her answer. Does she believe that reform of the legislation will be a key feature of the racial equality strategy? How does she envisage such reform of the legislation rolling out?

Michelle McIlveen (DUP, Strangford)

Obviously, I think —

Arlene Foster (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

Go ahead.

Michelle McIlveen (DUP, Strangford)

I thank the Member for his question. Reform is certainly being looked at. The draft strategy is with Ministers. We are looking at it and hope to publish it in the not too distant future. Having discussed those issues with a number of the groups, I know that they are concerned that we have a strategy that works. We look forward to seeing such a strategy rolled out.

Mike Nesbitt (UUP, Strangford)

I thank the junior Minister for her answers to date. Will she tell us what is the current rate of intersectional multiple discrimination, as defined on page 40 of the consultation document to which she referred?

Michelle McIlveen (DUP, Strangford)

The Member asks a very specific question. If he does not mind, I will write to him with an answer.

Jimmy Spratt (DUP, Belfast South)

I also welcome the junior Minister to her first Question Time. Will she outline some detail of the crisis fund?

Michelle McIlveen (DUP, Strangford)

I thank the Member for his question. In the last financial year, the crisis fund provided support to a significant number of minority ethnic individuals, who traditionally have fewer and weaker support networks to help them to avoid destitution in emergency situations. The crisis fund has benefited several vulnerable groups: vulnerable migrants, EU and non-EU nationals, destitute refugees, asylum seekers and other identifiable vulnerable groups, such as Roma.

The Red Cross was the lead administrator of the fund, and responsibility for day-to-day decisions lies with that organisation. There were 12 partners in total delivering funding from the crisis fund. Officials will shortly be meeting again with the Red Cross and others to discuss how the last round of funding went and whether there was scope or need for improvements. They will also consider the reasons why people are falling into crisis and whether any action should be taken to prevent matters getting to crisis point.

Karen McKevitt (Social Democratic and Labour Party, South Down)

I also commend Miss McIlveen on her promotion to the post of junior Minister, and I wish her all the best. Will she confirm that the severe criticism of the draft strategy by organisations such as the Northern Ireland Council for Ethnic Minorities (NICEM) will be fully taken on board?

Michelle McIlveen (DUP, Strangford)

I thank the Member for her question. Yes, absolutely; NICEM has been critical, but, over the period, much of what has been said is about the delay of the strategy. Having spoken to that organisation, I know that it is very keen that the strategy is well considered and that it makes a difference. The draft strategy is but a draft and requires further discussion, so we are hopeful that what is delivered will be acceptable to all groups.

Anna Lo (Alliance, Belfast South)

Like other Members, I congratulate the junior Minister on her appointment and welcome her to her first Question Time. I am sure that she is aware that a very well-attended meeting took place last week of black, minority and ethnic (BME) groups, at which a lot of frustration was expressed at the delay of the strategy. At that meeting, we understood that DFM has signed off the finalised draft strategy and that it now sits with OFM. Will the junior Minister confirm when OFM will sign off the strategy and have it published?

Michelle McIlveen (DUP, Strangford)

I thank the Member for her question. She is obviously better informed than I am about the deputy First Minister having signed that off. My understanding is that it is still with both Ministers and will then have to go to Executive colleagues for consideration. It is still at that stage, and I cannot be any more definitive than that, although we would like it to be moved on from the Executive as soon as possible.

Phil Flanagan (Sinn Féin, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

3. Mr Flanagan asked the First Minister and deputy First Minister for an update on their Department's consideration of the Children's Services Co-operation Bill (NIA 44/11-16). (AQO 8433/11-15)

Arlene Foster (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

With your permission, Mr Principal Deputy Speaker, I will ask junior Minister McIlveen to answer this question, too.

Michelle McIlveen (DUP, Strangford)

The Children's Services Co-operation Bill was introduced to the Assembly by Mr Steven Agnew in December 2014 and passed Second Stage in January 2015, after which it was referred to the Committee for the Office of the First Minister and deputy First Minister for scrutiny. The Department supports the general principle of the Bill but holds concerns about its current drafting. Officials have been working with the sponsor of the Bill to address these concerns and consider potential amendments.

We have now shared the potential amendments with the Committee, and officials provided it with an update on 17 June. The Committee is scheduled to complete its scrutiny of the Bill by 3 July. However, we wish to discuss the amendments further, particularly with relevant Departments, to ensure that the Bill is effective, practical and beneficial for our children and young people.

Phil Flanagan (Sinn Féin, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

Go raibh maith agat, a Phríomh-LeasCheann Comhairle. Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as ucht a freagra. I thank the junior Minister for her answer. Leaving aside the concerns about the potential wording of the Bill, does she accept that there is a need for a statutory duty to cooperate across Departments in the delivery of children's services?

Michelle McIlveen (DUP, Strangford)

I thank the Member for his questions. Absolutely. The overall intention of the Bill is positive, and any lever that will encourage Departments and agencies to work closely together in this policy area will certainly be welcomed. The breadth of policies and services relating to young people means that cooperation is essential. Throughout my time as a Member of the House, I have been concerned about services for children and young people and about ensuring that policy is right so that they can have a positive future.

David McIlveen (DUP, North Antrim)

I, too, would like to welcome my friend to her role as junior Minister. To the best of my knowledge we are not related, but it is still very encouraging to see a McIlveen on the Front Bench. I will always say "Hear, hear" to that.

The junior Minister mentioned concerns about the current draft of the Bill. Will she go into a little more detail on her specific concerns?

Michelle McIlveen (DUP, Strangford)

I thank the Member for his question. At this stage, the Bill is quite general, and there is, therefore, a risk that the impact on delivery would be minimal. There is a danger that the Bill could promise much but deliver quite little, with the main result being that it would increase bureaucracy rather than improving outcomes for children and young people.

The term "cooperation" is not easily defined or measured. The reporting function focuses solely on the cooperation element, and, while this is important, we feel that it would be more beneficial if we reported on service delivery and the impact on children and young people.

Another issue of concern is clause 4, which appears to give the Health and Social Care Board an empowering role in relation to a range of public bodies, including Departments. That could also be seen as inappropriate. In addition, Departments already work closely together, and, given the cross-cutting nature of the policy, much of this work is considered corporately at Executive level. A range of cross-departmental groups operates in this area, and there is regular, ongoing engagement with the sector via a number of different bodies. While we have those concerns, we agree with the principle of the Bill and are looking at further amendments.

Leslie Cree (UUP, North Down)

I also congratulate the junior Minister on her elevation. Does she regret that the Committee for the Office of the First Minister and deputy First Minister will not have sight of the Department's final recommendations until after the Committee Stage of the Bill has ended?

Michelle McIlveen (DUP, Strangford)

I thank the Member for his question. That is a concern, and perhaps it might have been useful to extend the time for the Committee Stage further to allow that, but I guess that we are where we are on that.

Seán Rogers (Social Democratic and Labour Party, South Down)

I, too, congratulate the new Minister. Given her previous role, she will appreciate that one of the major concerns with special educational needs is the lack of joined-up work and cooperation between the Department of Education and the Department of Health. I firmly believe that the Children's Services Co-operation Bill is an essential part of that new SEN Bill. What is her opinion?

Michelle McIlveen (DUP, Strangford)

I thank the Member for his comments and his question. I tend to agree with him on that. He will understand that I have long had a concern about cooperation between Health and Education. It is sometimes very much dependent on individuals in either trusts or, as they were formerly, boards who have worked positively together to get positive outcomes for individual children, but we want to make sure that that is the case right across Northern Ireland.

George Robinson (DUP, East Londonderry)

4. Mr G Robinson asked the First Minister and deputy First Minister for their assessment of the impact that the delay in agreeing welfare reform will have on organisations working with victims and survivors. (AQO 8434/11-15)

Arlene Foster (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

The First Minister and deputy First Minister are committed and will continue to remain committed to ensuring that victims and survivors receive the best services possible and that funding is targeted to those most in need. To that end, the Ministers will take whatever steps are necessary to mitigate any impact that the delay in agreeing welfare reform has on organisations working with victims and survivors.

Funding in this financial year has been increased, with over £14 million provided to support the victims sector. That includes the highest ever opening budget for the Victims and Survivors Service and reflects the continued commitment of the First Minister and deputy First Minister to victims and survivors. The Victims and Survivors Service has already issued letters of offer to victims and survivors groups for this financial year. In addition, the Ministers are continually looking for ways to improve service provision. OFMDFM officials, in collaboration with key stakeholders including the Victims and Survivors Service and the Commission for Victims and Survivors, are in the process of examining the service delivery model that is currently providing services to victims and survivors. That collaborative programme of work will help to design and inform the types of services required for victims and survivors going forward.

The input of stakeholders gleaned through that collaborative programme, coupled with the valuable feedback from the recent reviews of the Victims and Survivors Service on what is working well and the areas that require further analysis, will provide a useful steer to build on the improvement to services that has occurred in recent months.

George Robinson (DUP, East Londonderry)

I thank the Minister for her answer. Can she give an update on the victims pension?

Arlene Foster (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

If the Member is referring to the pension for seriously injured people, he will know that that is a commitment in the Stormont House Agreement. That is moving forward as officials have been tasked to bring forward a paper on a possible victims pension for the party-leaders group. That paper will draw on the useful background paper from WAVE and the report commissioned by the Commissioner for Victims and Survivors. There has been much talk about that issue recently and whether it will apply outside Northern Ireland and whether terrorists will be able to avail themselves of the pension. I took heart from the fact that the Secretary of State seems to be moving to a position where she will address the issue of victims residing outside Northern Ireland who have been directly impacted by the Troubles. I fundamentally welcome that because it is in line with paragraph 26 of the Stormont House Agreement, which says:

"The needs of victims who do not live in Northern Ireland should also be recognised."

That is to be welcomed.

Cathal Ó hOisín (Sinn Féin, East Londonderry)

Go raibh maith agat, a Phríomh-LeasCheann Comhairle. I thank the Minister for her answers thus far. Rather than limit the consideration to issues of welfare, can the Minister say whether the First Minister and deputy First Minister have given any assessment of the impact of Tory austerity cuts on front-line services?

Arlene Foster (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

I noted that the deputy First Minister was in London at the weekend, and we look forward to hearing how much money he was able to achieve by attending that event.

For my part, I went to see the Chief Secretary to the Treasury last week, and he made it very, very clear that there is no more money for welfare reforms for Northern Ireland. Indeed he went further, saying that welfare reform is an essential part of moving forward. It is, of course, a fundamental part of the Stormont House Agreement, and without one part of the Stormont House Agreement, the rest of the Stormont House Agreement does not proceed.

Trevor Lunn (Alliance, Lagan Valley)

If we do not agree welfare reform, and if that causes the collapse of these institutions, would she still expect the British Government to honour the agreements made at Stormont House during the negotiations — on the past, of course?

Arlene Foster (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

Well, you know, we came to an agreement on 23 December that brought about £2 billion of spending power for Northern Ireland over a number of years, yet we are going back to the United Kingdom Government and saying that that is not good enough. We want more money at a time when we are dealing with the deficit. As part of the United Kingdom, we have to deal with the deficit, which is currently in and around £75 billion or £76 billion. We cannot ignore those facts. If we are part of the United Kingdom, which we are and which we will be under the consent principle until the people of Northern Ireland decide otherwise, we have to deal with the budget that is allocated to us by the Westminster Government. Wishing it away is not going to do any good. We have to get real and deal with the issues that are in front of us now.

Jim Allister (Traditional Unionist Voice, North Antrim)

The Minister told Mr George Robinson that the proposition for a pension for seriously injured victims is moving forward. In moving forward, is there a departmental acceptance that such a pension can be only for innocent victims? If there is not that acceptance, will there be any pension?

Arlene Foster (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

All I can do is speak on behalf of the First Minister's side of OFMDFM and make it perfectly clear, as we have done right throughout the issue, that we will not support any pension if it is to be accessed by terrorists. That is very clear, and I cannot be any clearer about it. It then goes to the very heart of the definition of "a victim". We will have to revisit that. As he knows, this party brought forward proposals to try to deal with the issue, but, unfortunately, others on the other side of the House did not feel that they could support it. I hope that, when we bring it forward again, the SDLP in particular will look at the issue and decide to move forward.

John McCallister (UUP, South Down)

6. Mr McCallister asked the First Minister and deputy First Minister for an update on their delivery against Programme for Government 11-15 targets. (AQO 8436/11-15)

Arlene Foster (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

The Programme for Government 2011-15 sets out an ambitious programme to deliver real improvement in people's lives. Since then, despite difficult economic conditions, quality of life for people has improved. Data from the Office of National Statistics (ONS) show that people here have greater happiness, satisfaction, sense of purpose and lower anxiety than others in the UK. Those indicators are all improving.

Of the 82 commitments in the Programme for Government, almost 81% has been achieved, which is well in advance of the 70% achieved in the last Programme for Government. OFMDFM led on 14 of the commitments through the Delivering Social Change framework. For example, the First Minister and deputy First Minister have found innovative new approaches to tackling deep-seated, cross-cutting issues. Successes have been notable in areas including numeracy and literacy, as well as support for families and young people. Through the social investment fund, to date, Ministers have committed £53·7 million to projects, which is 67% of the total fund. Engagement with Europe has increased, exceeding targets by drawing down over £80 million of competitive funds. Under Together: Building a United Community, seven major good relations programmes have been put in place. They represent the largest investment in constructive community relations in our history and are a positive statement of the Ministers' ambition to build a better future.

When the First Minister and deputy First Minister set out their Programme for Government, they never pretended that the achievement of its aims would be straightforward. It was expressly an ambitious programme aimed at transformative change, and their achievements in this period show the benefits of such an approach.

Robin Newton (DUP, Belfast East)

That ends the period for listed questions. We now move on to 15 minutes of topical questions.

Daithí McKay (Sinn Féin, North Antrim)

T1. Mr McKay asked the First Minister and deputy First Minister which specific benefits will be targeted by the Tory Government's £12 billion welfare cuts announced today. (AQT 2681/11-15)

Arlene Foster (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

As the Member is fully aware, as is his leadership, that question has been asked on numerous occasions, at Stormont House Agreement meetings and, I presume, directly to national Government Ministers. We are unaware of the specific reductions that have been earmarked. However, he will read the same newspapers as I do — or perhaps not, as the case may be — and he will have seen the predicted areas from which the £12 billion will be cut.

Daithí McKay (Sinn Féin, North Antrim)

Go raibh maith agat. I thank the Minister for her answer. Her party colleague Sammy Wilson has already mooted that he would support cuts to welfare in the Budget, which would result in a reduction in our block grant. Can the Minister be clear and unambiguous in stating whether her party supports those cuts?

Arlene Foster (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

Unlike the Member's party, our party voted against the previous cuts to welfare at Westminster. Our MPs go to and have a voice at Westminster, unlike the party opposite, which is not there to make the case. Yes, you can go to rallies and make the case, but why not go to the House of Commons to make it? If those welfare cuts come, as predicted, the estimated welfare costs to Northern Ireland of a £12 billion reduction will likely be in excess of £350 million. That is the Barnett share for Northern Ireland. It is a matter of grave concern, but I have no doubt that our MPs will raise their voice at Westminster, and the very deep concerns that we have on those issues will be heard at Westminster.

David McNarry (UKIP, Strangford)

T2. Mr McNarry asked the First Minister and deputy First Minister what recommendations they will bring to the House if a working Budget linked to the Stormont House Agreement is not secured. (AQT 2682/11-15)

David McNarry (UKIP, Strangford)

I congratulate junior Minister McIlveen on her handling of questions today.

Arlene Foster (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

As the Member knows, and I think that he was here when I spoke about it last week, the Budget is predicated on the full implementation of the Stormont House Agreement, and that includes welfare reform implementation. Therefore, the matter will have to be dealt with, and it will have to be dealt with sooner rather than later.

David McNarry (UKIP, Strangford)

Taking that matter further, I ask at what stage the First Minister will move for the dissolution of the Assembly, or are we to sit here in limbo until May 2016?

Arlene Foster (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

I assure the Member that he will not be sitting in limbo in May 2016.

Ian McCrea (DUP, Mid Ulster)

T3. Mr I McCrea asked the First Minister and deputy First Minister whether they are concerned that the current political impasse could damage the Executive's ability to attract further investment, given that, in the past number of years, they have punched above their weight in their success in attracting FDI to Northern Ireland. (AQT 2683/11-15)

Arlene Foster (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

I thank the Member for his question. There is no doubt that, when we go to sell Northern Ireland as a destination for investment and a destination to bring jobs to, one of our strongest selling points is in and around political stability. I say to those who are putting the political stability of Northern Ireland at risk to think long and hard about that, because we have had tremendous success with job creation. The Programme for Government target for job creation was 25,000. We brought 36,000 jobs to Northern Ireland, and we should be incredibly proud of that. We were able to do that because we had political stability here.

Ian McCrea (DUP, Mid Ulster)

Is the Minister concerned that the delay in deciding on a date and a rate for corporation tax will have a negative impact on our ability to bring more jobs to Northern Ireland?

Arlene Foster (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

As the Member is aware, the devolution of corporation tax is something that this whole House, apart from one or two notable exceptions, agreed upon. Indeed, the Westminster Government have stepped up to the plate in relation to that; they have fulfilled the Stormont House Agreement position and brought forward legislation. It received Royal Assent, I think, on 17 March, and now it is a matter for us. Do we want to have this transformative tool in our box to grow the economy in Northern Ireland or do we not?

The reality is that, if we decide to go ahead with the devolution of corporation tax and to lower that rate, the full cost to the block grant does not come until three years after it is brought into position. So, if we were to bring it in for April 2017, which is probably not going to be the case now because time has gone, the full cost to the block would not have happened until 2020-21. So, it is wrong to mix the cost of corporation tax up with welfare reform costs because the Office for Budget Responsibility has indicated that revenue will be more readily available at that time, and we will start coming out of a deficit position. So, there will be more money available in 2020-21 to deal with those issues. I think that we need to have clarity on a lot of these issues, but it is wrong to mix up the cost of corporation tax and the cost of welfare reform.

Jimmy Spratt (DUP, Belfast South)

T4. Mr Spratt asked the First Minister and deputy First Minister whether they believe that the resolution of the welfare reform issue is critical to the full implementation of the Stormont House Agreement. (AQT 2684/11-15)

Arlene Foster (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

I absolutely do believe that. The implementation of welfare reform is critical to implementing the agreement; it unlocks all the other issues that were agreed during the Stormont House Agreement. It was a comprehensive, balanced agreement, which had parts in it that, individually, each party may not have recommended, but it was a compromise agreement that was to move Northern Ireland forward, but, because of the non-implementation of welfare reform, we find ourselves back as if the Stormont House Agreement had not been agreed. What does it say to the wider world that we came to an agreement and then we cannot deliver on it? It is very important that we move forward on welfare reform so that we can move forward on all the issues identified in the Stormont House Agreement.

Jimmy Spratt (DUP, Belfast South)

I thank the Minister for her answer. Has the deputy First Minister indicated whether, as a result of his attendance at the anti-austerity rally in London at the weekend, there has been any indication that the Executive will receive any additional funding?

Arlene Foster (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

There has been no indication to me or to the Office of the First Minister and deputy First Minister in relation to that matter. The only way that we can move forward on these issues is to get on, agree welfare reform, which, I have to say, in relation to Northern Ireland, we are going to have the most generous welfare package of any part of the United Kingdom and, indeed, any part of these islands, I would say. It is time to get the matter dealt with so that we can move ahead and grow the economy in Northern Ireland.

Maurice (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

T5. Lord Morrow asked the First Minister and deputy First Minister what steps their Department can take to assist with online safety, especially in light of the tragic events surrounding the death of young Ronan Hughes. (AQT 2685/11-15)

Arlene Foster (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

Mr Principal Deputy Speaker, with your permission, I will ask junior Minister McIlveen to answer that question.

Michelle McIlveen (DUP, Strangford)

The death of Ronan Hughes was, indeed, tragic, and I would like to extend my deepest sympathy to his parents, Gerard and Teresa Hughes, his wider family and friends and the pupils at St Joseph's Grammar School in Donaghmore.

Actions are being taken forward by the Executive to address Internet safety issues. The Executive agreed at their meeting on 29 January to formally commission the Safeguarding Board to develop an e-safety strategy and an action plan. SBNI has appointed a project manager to work within an 18-month time frame, and it aims to draft the e-safety strategy within that period.

That will then be presented to the Executive.

While OFMDFM does not directly have involvement in an internet safety strategy, junior Minister McCann and I, in our roles as junior Ministers, have central responsibility for matters relating to children and young people. We have been involved in a number of actions associated with the issue, participating in meetings such as those of the ministerial coordination group on suicide prevention and internet safety. The issue is being considered at that group.

I will continue to pursue opportunities to promote safety awareness, and officials will also be liaising with the UK Safer Internet Centre on developments in the pipeline. For example, that will also include the launch of a new programme for secondary schools by the centre, called the Childnet Digital Leaders Programme, in September. It will offer schools across the UK access to online training and support for pupils.

Maurice (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

I thank the junior Minister for her very comprehensive answer. I too wish her well in her new post. I am sure she would agree that promoting safer use of the internet is very important. Has there been a date set for a day to promote safer use of the internet?

Michelle McIlveen (DUP, Strangford)

I thank the Member for his question. There is an annual event — Safer Internet Day — and the next one is scheduled for 9 February 2016. That will represent a further opportunity for us to promote internet safety messages.

Barry McElduff (Sinn Féin, West Tyrone)

T6. Mr McElduff asked the First Minister and deputy First Minister for their assessment of the work carried out by support groups for the ethnic minority members of our community. (AQT 2686/11-15)

Arlene Foster (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

Of course, like many other support groups across Northern Ireland, the support groups that exist to support ethnic minorities are a critical part of the infrastructure — the ecosystem, as it were — to help those who are from an ethnic minority. So, I very much value, as does the Office of the First Minister and deputy First Minister, the work of a number of those groups.

Barry McElduff (Sinn Féin, West Tyrone)

Go raibh maith agat. Would the Minister consider supporting the notion of funding being made available to ethnic community support groups like the Omagh Ethnic Community Support Group on a multi-annual basis so that they can prepare for the longer term rather than on a year-to-year basis. I join other Members in welcoming junior Minister McIlveen to the House in her new role.

Arlene Foster (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

There will be a number of bids made in relation to a number of sectors and a number of groups. All those bids need to be seen in the context of where we are with the Budget and the non-agreement of welfare reform, because if we do not have welfare reform agreement we will have a £600 million hole in the Budget. Therefore, the Budget in front of this House, and that will come to the Floor again this afternoon, is predicated on welfare reform. I hope that he and others will join me in saying that we need to deal with welfare reform. Then, we can get around to dealing with groups from Omagh and everywhere else.

Robin Newton (DUP, Belfast East)

Mr Edwin Poots is not in his place and Mr Cathal Boylan is not in his place; I therefore call Mr Adrian McQuillan.

Adrian McQuillan (DUP, East Londonderry)

T9. Mr McQuillan asked the First Minister and deputy First Minister how close the Assembly and Executive are to bringing forward a rural proofing Bill. (AQT 2689/11-15)

Arlene Foster (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

The Minister of Agriculture and Rural Development has a paper in front of the Executive in relation to statutory rural proofing, and I understand that that is coming before the Executive in the very near future.

Adrian McQuillan (DUP, East Londonderry)

I thank the Minister for her answer. Does she agree that almost 35% of people in Northern Ireland live in rural areas and would very much welcome a rural proofing Bill?

Arlene Foster (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

I very much welcome the acknowledgment of those of us who live in rural areas and the needs we have, which may not necessarily be the same for those who live in urban areas. There is always a need to realise that, identify those issues and deal with them in the most appropriate way.

Oral Answers to Questions — Culture, Arts and Leisure

Robin Newton (DUP, Belfast East)

I must inform the House that question 15 has been withdrawn.

Judith Cochrane (Alliance, Belfast East)

1. Mrs Cochrane asked the Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure how her Department promotes creativity and innovation in the arts sector. (AQO 8446/11-15)

Carál Ní Chuilín (Sinn Féin, Belfast North)

Go raibh maith agat, a Phríomh-LeasCheann Comhairle. I thank the Member for her question. My Department supports creativity and innovation in line with the Executive’s innovation strategy. This includes the delivery of the creative industries innovation fund from 2009 to 2015 and my Department’s ongoing support for our creative learning centres. A ministerial action group on the creative industries has been established to consider how best to build on this investment. My Department’s support has led to success stories such as Dog Ears, whose 'Puffin Rock' series is now shown to a global audience through the Nickelodeon channel.

Judith Cochrane (Alliance, Belfast East)

I thank the Minister for her response. What is she doing to promote examples of innovative partnerships between arts and business sectors working with young people such as CultureTECH and Seagate, or Translink and the Cahoots theatre company?

Carál Ní Chuilín (Sinn Féin, Belfast North)

I thank the Member for her question. She mentioned a few, and, through the ministerial action group, there is a coming together of groups that are involved in creative industries, particularly around animation or work for children and that. I mentioned Dog Ears, but there is also the work of Coder Dojo and others. DCAL, DE, DETI and DEL are involved in this; I think that it is a fairly high-level group. It is not only to build on what we have done up to now but to take in the work of performing arts and artists to help to inform children and young people around the STEM subjects. I thank the Member for her question and her supplementary question because that leads on to what this work is trying to inform, particularly for the next CSR, which is really important.

Pat Ramsey (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

Following on from Ms Cochrane's question, will the Minister acknowledge the major contribution that arts groups, community and otherwise, make across Northern Ireland in the community support that they give? Is the Minister in a frame of mind to review the existing funding arrangements for arts groups to make them more sustainable and viable going forward?

Carál Ní Chuilín (Sinn Féin, Belfast North)

First, I totally agree with Pat Ramsey about the work that the arts provide and the work that arts and creative people, even in the business community, provide. It will help towards our sustainability. Currently, an advisory group is looking at a new arts and cultural strategy. Unlike sports, for example, the arts did not have an overarching arts and cultural strategy. Sport has Sport Matters, which is supported by the entire Executive. I think that it is important to do this because we have a great cultural fabric in our community. We have a good partnership between arts and business and arts and the cultural sector. I think that we need to look at what the needs are and to try to agree the best possible way forward. Not only will that help to address need, it will help towards long-term sustainability.

Rosaleen McCorley (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

Go raibh maith agat, a Phríomh-LeasCheann Comhairle. Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as ucht a freagraí go dtí seo. I thank the Minister for her answers thus far. She will no doubt be aware of the closure of the Tower Street campus. Can she comment on any adverse impacts that that might have on students travelling to north Down?

Carál Ní Chuilín (Sinn Féin, Belfast North)

I am aware, as I am sure every Member is, of the imminent closure of Tower Street. I understand that performing arts courses at the Tower Street campus will cease. That will affect new students, who, upon taking those courses, will be accommodated at the South Eastern Regional College in Bangor. To that end, I wrote to Minister Farry in May and again in June because, given my responses to Pat Ramsey and Judith Cochrane, it is really important that we have a joined-up approach.

Big concerns are raised by this issue. I am the lead Minister for creative industries, and I was not informed of it. There has been and will continue to be a substantial lobby around ensuring that Tower Street is successful, because it was and remains successful, particularly to students travelling to the city of Belfast and those who live in the city of Belfast who have articulated that this will cause them hardship. I look forward to the Minister's replies to my correspondence to address exactly those questions and other questions.

Anna Lo (Alliance, Belfast South)

2. Ms Lo asked the Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure for her assessment of the social value of the intercultural arts programme. (AQO 8447/11-15)

Carál Ní Chuilín (Sinn Féin, Belfast North)

I thank the Member for her question. The impact of the intercultural arts programme is currently being evaluated, and early indications are that the programme was extremely successful. I expect to receive the final evaluation report in the coming weeks, after which I will be able to provide further comment on the social value of this programme. I hope to have this completed straight after the summer recess.

Anna Lo (Alliance, Belfast South)

Perhaps I should first of all declare an interest as the patron of Terra Nova, an intercultural arts organisation, which has received funding in the last few years. I have the report, which is very good. It says that that three-year programme has been very valuable. How will the Minister promote, in the long term, opportunities for ethnic minority artists and audiences, as well as intercultural dialogue and collaboration, to be developed across the whole of the arts infrastructure in Northern Ireland?

Carál Ní Chuilín (Sinn Féin, Belfast North)

I thank the Member for her supplementary question. She will certainly have a preliminary report on the evaluation report. Even though the intercultural programme had a certain lifespan, I continued to provide funding after that, not only to allow the evaluation to take place but to ensure that the work, some of which was contracted, was able to be honoured. In addition to that, the Member will be aware that funding, even through cultural partnerships, was awarded to groups like ArtsEkta, for example, and others to provide opportunities to give us the great spectacle of intercultural arts, but also to provide opportunities for building good and better relations, which, at times, come under extreme pressure, particularly within the city of Belfast.

In short, the interim report points to a very successful programme. I am taking that report and preparing a final report, with a view to trying to make an additional bid to potential monitoring rounds and certainly trying to build it into any future funding strands.

Máirtín Ó Muilleoir (Sinn Féin, Belfast South)

Go raibh maith agat, a Phríomh-LeasCheann Comhairle. I thank the Minister for her answers and Ms Lo for bringing the issue up. How was the funding for the intercultural arts programme distributed over the last period?

Carál Ní Chuilín (Sinn Féin, Belfast North)

The distribution of £300,000 was made available to the intercultural arts programme over three years. It was done in collaboration with many groups. There have been many successful outcomes from great collaborations. The Arts Council made 34 awards to community organisations. Three organisations did not take up their awards and four organisations received two awards each, so 31 projects and 27 organisations were funded through the Arts Council. In respect of the minority ethnic individual artist award scheme, the Arts Council also made 20 individual artist awards to 18 artists. It is that sort of collaboration with the Arts Council that has helped sustainability. Through the Arts Council and additional moneys that were received through monitoring rounds, that intercultural arts programme has been very successful, and it is that collaboration and distribution that has made it work.

Karen McKevitt (Social Democratic and Labour Party, South Down)

Will the Minister give a breakdown of where the fund has been distributed outside of Belfast and Derry, particularly with reference to the south Down area?

Carál Ní Chuilín (Sinn Féin, Belfast North)

The Member may appreciate that I do not have those details to hand. I am certainly aware of how many groups, but not where the groups were located. I know that in the Member's own constituency there is Sticky Fingers, for example, although it was not primarily an intercultural programme, but, through my work and my Department, there have certainly been interventions made in that area where there were not before, or where the award was not at the power that the organisation felt that it needed to be. I am certainly happy to provide the Member with all of those details.

Seán Rogers (Social Democratic and Labour Party, South Down)

3. Mr Rogers asked the Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure how her Department is supporting the growth of mountain biking. (AQO 8448/11-15)

Carál Ní Chuilín (Sinn Féin, Belfast North)

I thank the Member for his question. In 2014, Sport NI’s investment in Outdoor Recreation NI enabled the development and publication of a 10-year mountain bike strategy. That strategy is being further resourced in 2015 with a piece of live research on unmet demand for mountain biking and allied economic activity impact. Sport NI has invested over £70,000 in the provision of this mountain bike skills loop and provided an additional 1,600 metres of dedicated single-track trail, which is suitable for both recreational and competitive mountain bikers, as a training facility. In addition, DCAL, through Sport NI, has invested £150,000 towards mountain-bike skills and challenge trails.

Over the past three years, my Department, through Sport NI has also provided financial assistance to Cycling Ireland and other bodies totalling over £500,000 towards cycling sports generally, inclusive of mountain biking.

Seán Rogers (Social Democratic and Labour Party, South Down)

I thank the Minister for her answer. On the back of a very successful Gran Fondo, which came to the Mournes at the weekend, are there any plans for international mountain biking events in the likes of Castlewellan and Kilbroney park?

Carál Ní Chuilín (Sinn Féin, Belfast North)

The Member may be aware that sporting events, even though they are sporting, are events, so they are within the gift of DETI. Are the facilities at Kilbroney park fit to host an international event? Absolutely. I think that the work of Sport NI in partnership with the governing body and other partners and colleagues that are involved, including DETI and DARD, will try to ensure that every opportunity is availed of to bring such spectacles not only to the city of Belfast but to surrounding areas.

Gregory Campbell (DUP, East Londonderry)

Will the Minister liaise with her colleague the Minister of Agriculture and Rural Development so that a more strategic approach is adopted not only to mountain biking but other leisure pursuits in forests and mountains right across Northern Ireland to ensure that a strategic promotional aspect can be taken forward across the whole of Northern Ireland?

Carál Ní Chuilín (Sinn Féin, Belfast North)

In short, absolutely. We will liaise with Michelle O'Neill, the Minister of Agriculture and Rural Development. I have actually started that process already to ensure that our outdoor facilities are not just used for mountain walking and climbing as they have been traditionally. Young people, scouts and youth movements have all used the forests and mountains as part of an outdoor leisure package. Indeed, Michelle O'Neill and I have started work to look at tracking and mountain biking as part of the package. I am also liaising with colleagues in DOE, for example, to ensure that local government, through the super-councils, is involved in this as well. It has been shown in the past — I think that this is where the Member is trying to point — that, where there is a joined-up approach, particularly at central government level, not only do you have a better outcome but there is more sustainability.

Leslie Cree (UUP, North Down)

The Committee for Culture, Arts and Leisure was at Kilbroney last week. We were able to see at first hand the excellent course there. You have touched on this, but it seems to me that there is great scope for other mountain bike trails that are perhaps more geared to amateurs. Do you have any formal relationship with the Agriculture Minister to use the forest parks for that purpose?

Carál Ní Chuilín (Sinn Féin, Belfast North)

The answer is yes, as I said to Gregory Campbell. We have started a formal process to explore opportunities from forests, hills and mountains. I am trying to encourage local government and some of the governing bodies to get a better joined-up approach to leisure, sport and physical activity. I was tempted to ask whether you availed yourself of some of the mountain biking facilities. After the summer, hopefully, I will make it my business to go down and see the facilities at first hand. I have seen others in the past, particularly looking at how young people can use mountain biking, orienteering and the mountains and forests for activities such as team building. These are our natural resources, and we need to protect them, not just so that people can enjoy them for the view and spectacle that they are but so that we can have better outcomes for leisure, sport and physical activity.

John Dallat (Social Democratic and Labour Party, East Londonderry)

4. Mr Dallat asked the Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure what plans she has to decentralise public-sector jobs within her Department prior to the restructuring of Executive Departments. (AQO 8449/11-15)

Carál Ní Chuilín (Sinn Féin, Belfast North)

I thank the Member for his question. I have no plans to decentralise any jobs in DCAL prior to the restructuring of Departments. Out of a workforce of almost 300, 54 DCAL staff, just under 20%, are in posts that are located outside Belfast. These staff are based in satellite locations in five counties across the North.

With regard to the Member's constituency in the north-west, I remain committed to taking forward actions to build on the success of the City of Culture and drive a proactive approach to tackling poverty, social exclusion and inequality in that area, which continues to suffer from high levels of deprivation. A north-west office was established by my Department in April last year. The team coordinates grant distribution actions across the north-west, including Derry, Strabane, Coleraine, Limavady and the surrounding rural areas.

John Dallat (Social Democratic and Labour Party, East Londonderry)

I was sure for a moment there that the Minister was whistling my tune when she referred to the north-west. I am sure that she would agree with me that the wealth of culture and music shared by the whole community in the north-west deserves recognition. Does she agree, before her Department goes in different directions, that she should establish a prominent presence in the Maiden City, Derry?

Carál Ní Chuilín (Sinn Féin, Belfast North)

I thank the Member for his supplementary question. You just need to be careful about whistling and certainly about whistling tunes in this place. However, I accept what the Member says, and I anticipate questions about tunes, music, marching bands and all the rest.

I already have a presence in Orchard House, albeit a very small presence. I hope that that will grow, but it is more than that. That should be a base to look at areas such as Limavady, Coleraine, Strabane and even as far as south Derry and the surrounding areas. When we look at the success of the City of Culture and, indeed, the legacy programme, it is easy to say, "That's me done", and walk away. Through my Department and the team and staff that have been working there, that is not where they are pointing. The needs are there and will continue to be there, as will DCAL.

Cathal Ó hOisín (Sinn Féin, East Londonderry)

Go raibh maith agat, a Phríomh-LeasCheann Comhairle. Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as ucht an fhreagra sin. Will the Minister provide details of what engagement she has had with trade union and staff representatives on the restructuring of Departments?

Carál Ní Chuilín (Sinn Féin, Belfast North)

I thank the Member for his supplementary question. The Civil Service-wide steps that have taken place to ensure regular engagement, certainly with the central trade union side and staff side representatives, will continue. It is essential that that happens, particularly on the departmental restructuring programme. My officials have met staff across the Department and had successful meetings with representatives of local trade union and staff side representatives. That will continue until the formal restructuring programme is completed and brought forward.

Robin Swann (UUP, North Antrim)

On the restructuring of Departments, will the Minister provide the House with an update on where she sees inland fisheries finishing up as a joint unit? If there were any restructuring or relocation, could Bushmills be considered as a location for the new Department?

Carál Ní Chuilín (Sinn Féin, Belfast North)

All those discussions have yet to be concluded. The Member will be aware from Bushmills and even Ballymoney that DCAL has had a strong presence in his constituency for decades. I am sure that the Member will join me in commending and congratulating staff for the work that they do not just in the conservation of fish stocks but in their outreach and engagement with local communities, particularly children. It is important that those services not only are maintained but are added to in the new Department where they will find their home.

Jim Allister (Traditional Unionist Voice, North Antrim)

5. Mr Allister asked the Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure to outline the chronology relevant to her knowledge of safety concerns relating to the redevelopment of Casement Park. (AQO 8450/11-15)

Carál Ní Chuilín (Sinn Féin, Belfast North)

I thank the Member for his question. Safety is and must be at the heart of all stadium projects, including Casement Park. Given the range of experience and diverse perspectives on each capital project, we can be sure of one thing: people will not agree at all times. However, we need debate and dialogue to forge the best possible project and programme. The governance structures put in place for the stadium programme ensure that the necessary checks and balances are in place and provide the forum for open debate and dialogue before final decisions are approved.

As I have previously stated, I was aware that a project of this nature would have important public safety aspects to be considered throughout the development process. I am aware that the safety technical group was involved in discussions about safety. However, the first that I was made aware of the allegations that safety concerns had been ignored was when the chair of the safety technical group gave evidence to the CAL Committee on 30 April. I was shocked by that and, as a result, commissioned an independent project assessment review (PAR), which took place between 15 and 19 June. A copy of the final PAR report will be published in due course.

I want to make it clear that I am happy for anyone to look at this programme openly and transparently. My Department is fully cooperating with the CAL Committee's inquiry, which I hope will add some objective, constructive analysis to the whole debate.

Jim Allister (Traditional Unionist Voice, North Antrim)

Mr Paul Scott was very clear that he had warned the Department, in his words, over many months and years, about the safety risks. It seems that the Minister was either turning a blind eye or was asleep at the wheel. Which was it?

Carál Ní Chuilín (Sinn Féin, Belfast North)

Mr Scott's allegations are the subject of two reviews — the Committee's investigation and the independent investigation — in addition to the review that I have asked DFP to come in and do. He made two very serious allegations: one was that he had raised safety concerns, and the other was that he was bullied and gagged when putting those forward. Let me totally clear — the Member is very fond of making accusations about individuals and groups in this place and hiding behind parliamentary privilege — if you or anyone else believes that I deliberately hid safety concerns, they need to bring that forward. In the absence of doing so, the Member needs to put up or shut up.

Robin Newton (DUP, Belfast East)

I remind the Minister to address remarks through the Chair.

William Humphrey (DUP, Belfast North)

I will not veer into asking questions about the investigation as a member of the Committee; I am doing that in Committee. Has the Minister recently held meetings with the residents immediately around the ground or with the Gaelic Athletic Association on the issue of emergency exiting from Casement?

Carál Ní Chuilín (Sinn Féin, Belfast North)

I am due to meet a residents' group. I know that the Member is working with the Mooreland and Owenvarragh Residents' Association (MORA), but there is another residents group called the Andersonstown Regeneration Committee (ARC), which is made up of residents in the immediate vicinity, and I am due to meet them this week.

I await the outcome of the PAR on emergency exiting and all the rest. An absolute wealth of paperwork has gone forward — not just to the Committee inquiry, as it will also come forward as part of any new planning application. I am willing to meet anybody about this. I have said that I would, and I will continue to do so. I look forward to the meeting this week with the Andersonstown Regeneration Committee.

Ian Milne (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

Go raibh maith agat, a Phríomh-LeasCheann Comhairle. Was the Minister aware that the chair of the safety technical group felt that the Casement Park project had what have been described as showstopping safety concerns? Will she tell us what opportunities he and Sport NI staff and board members had to bring any serious concerns to her attention?

Carál Ní Chuilín (Sinn Féin, Belfast North)

I want to use the opportunity to repeat that I was not aware of that. The first that I heard of the allegations was on 30 April, when Mr Scott was brought before the Committee at the invitation of the Chair of the Committee. I was not aware of any showstopping safety concerns. There was ample opportunity to bring those to me, but I am reluctant to go into any more detail than that. That will be the subject of not just the PAR but the independent investigation that will look into the two serious allegations that were made by Mr Scott on 30 April in front of the CAL Committee.

Roy Beggs (UUP, East Antrim)

Given the degree of public funding involved in the project and the degree of public interest, will the Minister explain why these fundamental design and safety issues, which can be life-or-death issues, were not adequately addressed at the design stage and somehow proceeded to the planning permission stage?

Carál Ní Chuilín (Sinn Féin, Belfast North)

The Member is not across the detail of the programme. He has made an assumption that the designs were inadequate, but, if they were inadequate, how did they receive planning permission? At the end of the day, the arbitrary say is with the statutory authority of Belfast City Council, which issues safety certificates.

I am aware that any construction will be done with an eye to ongoing discussion with the statutory body, namely the council, to ensure not only that buildings are compliant as far as safety is concerned but that the design is compliant from start to finish, with a view to gaining a safety certificate at the end. Like other Members, the Member is picking up on sound bites that he has heard in the media and has run with those. You need to get better information.

Patsy McGlone (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Mid Ulster)

Go raibh maith agat, a Phríomh-LeasCheann Comhairle. I thank the Minister for her answers to this point. Is she confident that the inquiry being conducted by the CAL Committee will be done in an utterly fair, unbiased and impartial manner?

Carál Ní Chuilín (Sinn Féin, Belfast North)

I thank the Member for his question. I know that some members of the Culture, Arts and Leisure Committee will ensure that that happens. They will ensure that it is impartial. I have seen and heard reports, for example, that the Committee Chair made, as I understand it, as a member of the DUP rather than as Chair and which have prompted some speculation about that independence. However, unlike other inquiries that have taken place in the House, I am opening up my Department, my books and my officials, staff and anyone else for investigation to ensure not only that safety concerns were paramount but that they will remain paramount. If there are lessons that can be learned from this, I will accept them in the spirit in which they are meant. I know of other members of the Committee whose personal integrity will ensure that it is fully independent.

Nelson McCausland (DUP, Belfast North)

6. Mr McCausland asked the Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure what methodology was used in assessing the relative need for future funding for the Ulster-Scots Broadcast Fund and the Irish Language Broadcast Fund. (AQO 8451/11-15)

Carál Ní Chuilín (Sinn Féin, Belfast North)

I thank the Member for his question. The most urgent need at the moment is to get a commitment from Ed Vaizey, Minister of State for Culture and the Digital Economy, to continue both funds beyond 2016 and up to 2021 at least. Following the formation of the new British Government, I wrote to Mr Vaizey to request a renewed and increased commitment to the broadcast funds. I will be arguing for relative funding levels and uplifts to that amount on the basis of need as these discussions develop.

Nelson McCausland (DUP, Belfast North)

I asked how the Minister would assess relative need, which is the core issue of the question. I remind her that, on a previous occasion, reference was made to viewing figures as one of the factors that would be taken into account in measuring relative need. What are the factors?

Carál Ní Chuilín (Sinn Féin, Belfast North)

I am happy to provide the Member with details, but viewing figures are one aspect and we would need to be careful about them. Some of the criticisms that the Member and other Members, particularly in his party, have made about the content of some of the programmes would not be a good parameter to use, particularly if you are using viewing figures. That would not reflect the needs in the community. It is one measurement, but there are others. Demand is another aspect when it comes, for example, to the Ulster-Scots Broadcast Fund. I know that, when it comes to the Irish Language Broadcast Fund, demand for new funding, if it is realised, is already there. Apprenticeships and training are already there, as are local commissioning producers, for both funds.

I will provide the Member with details about how we assess need, but I would urge him not to use viewing figures as the main way to determine need because that will not ensure that the Ulster-Scots Broadcast Fund will get the funding that the Member feels it needs.

Robin Swann (UUP, North Antrim)

The Minister is aware that I have asked her a number of questions about funding for Ulster-Scots radio broadcasts, especially on fUSe FM 107·5 in Ballymoney. Is any equivalent funding available? Foras na Gaeilge has the community Irish language radio scheme; would there be any similar funding for an Ulster-Scots-based radio station?

Carál Ní Chuilín (Sinn Féin, Belfast North)

The money from Foras na Gaeilge and through the broadcast fund is primarily for the development, enhancement and protection of the Irish language. It covers apprenticeships, training and sustainability. It is important that even through the Ulster-Scots community and 107·5 FM, the people in the Member's constituency come forward with plans and open discussions with the Ulster-Scots Agency, which, I believe, has been and will be instrumental in shaping the way in which Ulster-Scots funding is developed in future, and that includes broadcast funds as well.

Robin Newton (DUP, Belfast East)

The time for listed questions is up, and we now move on to topical questions.

Brenda Hale (DUP, Lagan Valley)

T1. Mrs Hale asked the Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure, pursuant to her previous question about the lack of balance of literature sold at the Ulster Museum, to state what action she has taken to address this. (AQT 2691/11-15)

Carál Ní Chuilín (Sinn Féin, Belfast North)

I assume that someone from my Department wrote to Mrs Hale based on the question that she asked previously. If not, I will try to chase that up. I do know that someone went out and looked at the bookshop, the gift shop and the facilities in the Ulster Museum to try to get to the bottom of the accusation that Mrs Hale made.

Brenda Hale (DUP, Lagan Valley)

I thank the Minister for her answer and for the numerous lists of book stock that I have received. Sadly, after visiting the Ulster Folk and Transport Museum on 12 June, I see no evidence of balance or of the shop stock relating to the book lists that I have been given. Will the Minister agree with me that it is imperative that a cross-cultural balance always be prioritised, especially when one considers that actions speak louder than words?

Carál Ní Chuilín (Sinn Féin, Belfast North)

I certainly agree with the Member that it is important that people see that there is balance and that they see themselves reflected in the services that all Departments provide. I will pursue that with officials and, again, try to get to the bottom of where the Member feels there is an imbalance. I will certainly investigate it.