Northern Ireland Assembly, 3 November 2015

342 contributions from 65 members. The official report.

Assembly Business

Stewart Dickson (Alliance, East Antrim)

On a point of order, Mr Speaker. You will be aware that, in recent days, there have been media reports about the DUP Tippexing a standard petition of concern form to you on various matters. This follows a similar accusation with regard to Sinn Féin earlier this year. There is a clear inference that individual Members are not using their personal discretion when it comes to completing such forms. May I ask you to investigate the efficacy of doing that and whether it meets the appropriate Standing Orders?

Mitchel McLaughlin (Speaker, South Antrim)

In fact, I was aware of that situation. Standing Orders and procedure are very clear. In the Speaker's office, we have to be satisfied that the signatures are genuine and that the petition of concern specifies the issue. That is as far as I am able to take this matter forward. Tippex on a sheet does not indicate anything that I can do anything about, so long as the signature that is visible is the genuine signature of a Member.

Maurice (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

Further to that point of order, Mr Speaker, you say that you have looked at these signatures. Have you found any discrepancies or any reason for you not to accept them as anything but genuine and authentic signatures on the petitions concerned?

Mitchel McLaughlin (Speaker, South Antrim)

I understand why you have asked the question but, clearly, if I announced that it was a valid petition of concern, I was entirely satisfied.

Ministerial Statement

David Ford (Alliance, South Antrim)

With permission, Mr Speaker, I wish to make a statement on the access to justice review, part II.

Members will recall that, in 2011, I published the first access to justice review, which led to a comprehensive programme of work, with three strategic objectives for reform: improving access to justice; bringing legal aid within budget; and improving governance.

Much has been achieved in these areas in the intervening period. Reforms have been introduced that have helped to manage the cost of legal aid, including new fee arrangements in criminal courts and more appropriate levels of representation in the civil and criminal courts. Legal aid spend remains stubbornly high, but, without these changes, the costs would have been even higher.

Pilot projects have been run with the third sector, helping to shape how partnerships might operate to meet specific needs in the future. The Legal Services Agency has been created, complete with new appeal arrangements; and responsibility for exceptional grant funding has passed to the director of legal aid casework, removing the Justice Minister from any involvement in individual decisions.

More recently, attention has turned to the potential for reducing the scope of civil legal aid in areas where alternative provision is available or where public funding should be prioritised to the areas of most need. The introduction of standard fees for family cases is also at an advanced stage.

A pilot project to minimise unnecessary delay in care proceedings is now getting under way and should commence in January in Newtownards and Londonderry courts. Separately, under the banner of "speeding up justice", an innovative approach has been piloted in the Ards Crown Court division to progress indictable cases more swiftly. Early engagement between defence and prosecution practitioners, as well as the police and the prosecution service, has delivered real improvement. Of the cases concluded to date, the average number of days from incident report to sentencing was 97, compared to 175 in the same period last year.

However, access to justice is a complex issue and more needs to be done to maintain momentum. Over time, the wider environment has changed, and that is why I commissioned this follow-up review. The overall purpose of the review was threefold: first, to identify and prioritise services where publicly funded advice and/or representation should be provided to meet human rights obligations, safeguard the interests of vulnerable people and meet the wider public interest; secondly, to consider the delivery models that might be best suited to the provision of publicly funded legal services through mechanisms other than legal aid; and, thirdly, to consider whether there are aspects of the justice system where efficiencies might contribute towards reducing the cost of publicly funded legal services while sustaining the quality of service provision.

I have now received a very comprehensive and detailed report. Today, I am pleased to publish that report and begin a period of public consultation on its findings and recommendations. I am very grateful to Jim Daniell and Colin Stutt for their time, effort and research over many months, and for their commitment to delivering a thought-provoking report. I also thank those who made contributions and offered views to the review. It is important now that all those who wish to comment let us have their views on the recommendations.

As I have said before in the House, fair and effective means of securing access to justice are essential elements of any civilised society. We currently have a comprehensive legal aid scheme — the report refers to it as world class — and we need to get the balance right to ensure that it is sustainable and that people who are most vulnerable are able to access the support that they need. There is a need to balance difficult decisions over the allocation of resources with new or more efficient and effective ways of delivering access and ensure that those who have the necessary means contribute to, or meet, their own legal costs.

The report provides a comprehensive analysis and makes some 150 wide-ranging recommendations. It starts by acknowledging that access to justice is a fundamental human right and that legal aid is an indispensable part of the system. I completely agree. It identifies the legally irreducible minimum for a legal aid scheme, but goes on to argue why it would be inappropriate to reduce legal aid in Northern Ireland to that level. It suggests a range of priorities for access to justice, but argues that those are not the same as priorities for legal aid. Against that backdrop, the report recognises the pressures caused by the demand for legal aid and the consequential need to identify measures to control expenditure, while minimising the impact on access to justice. It also recognises the potential for steps to be taken to improve the way in which justice is delivered. Some of the proposals could result in fundamental change and deliver improved efficiency and effectiveness.

I will consider very carefully the comments made by those who respond to this consultation. However, we cannot afford to let the period of consultation hold up the reforms that are already in progress. I will continue to take forward the development of a new standard fee approach for civil legal services, where the development of arrangements for family cases is at an advanced stage. In the longer term, I will wish to reflect on the views that might be expressed in the consultation on the proposal for a wider remuneration strategy.

I have already announced that I will remove most money damages cases from scope. I plan to progress this, but, in doing so, will consult separately on the alternative funding arrangements recommended in the report. They have the potential to maintain, if not enhance, access to justice.

The report recommends some modest changes to the scope of legal aid. I have already consulted on some of these areas, and I will reflect on the specific comments in the report as I take this work forward. However, in one key area, it suggests that private family law should largely remain within scope, unlike the situation in England and Wales. I welcome this recommendation.

The report addresses issues such as eligibility for legal aid support; the opportunities to reduce or recoup costs through, for example, increased contributions; and changes in the statutory charge that will increase its effectiveness. I will consider each of these areas. However, as the recommendations in these areas concern ensuring that those who can afford to contribute to the cost of legal representation do so, they must be right in principle.

The report makes a number of recommendations on the structure and operation of the court system. It suggests a move towards a more inquisitorial system, and I will reflect on the responses to the consultation and consult the Lord Chief Justice on these suggestions.

The report also suggests ways of improving family justice procedures and practice, and this will feed into the work that the Lord Chief Justice has recently commissioned Lord Justice Gillen to take forward in respect of the civil and family courts.

Similarly, I will wish to discuss with the Lord Chief Justice the proposal for a working group to deliver efficiency measures in the criminal courts. The pilot project in the Crown Court, which I mentioned earlier, is clear evidence that positive change can be delivered in this area.

The report recommends that legal aid funding be retained for judicial review proceedings, and I welcome this. It is important that the actions of government bodies are properly held to account. However, I also welcome the recommendations for tightening up access to this intervention to ensure that it is accessed when appropriate, as well as the measures proposed to resolve disputes through alternative approaches.

The report makes a number of recommendations that impact the responsibilities of other Departments. There are, for example, recommendations in respect of public family law and mediation where DHSSPS has a role to play. In divorce and issues relating to the legal profession, the Department of Finance and Personnel has a role to play. I will wish to engage with the respective Ministers in addressing these issues.

This is a very comprehensive report, and I cannot do it justice in a brief statement. It is thought-provoking and, in parts, challenging. However, it has the potential to inform an agenda for change that will speed up the justice system, reduce costs and improve the experience of those who come into contact with the system. I encourage Members and the wider public to read it and engage with the consultation process.

Alastair Ross (DUP, East Antrim)

Access to justice is fundamental to any democratic society that values the rule of law, but there is little doubt that the current financial pressures mean that there are challenges to such access. It is therefore incumbent upon us to look at innovative approaches to protect access to justice while reducing cost. That is precisely why I initiated the seminars on innovation in the criminal justice system earlier this year.

To that end, I particularly welcome the modest acknowledgement in the report that online dispute resolution systems could offer a potential solution. This is an area that I have personally promoted and that the Committee is keen to explore further. Does the Minister agree that such systems have significant potential to speed up the system; support through their justice journey citizens who cannot access legal aid or afford legal representation; and have the added advantage of reducing cost to the public purse? Will he give a commitment to take forward work in this area, including any recommendations prioritised by the Committee?

I also ask the Minister whether he intends to prioritise any of the areas covered in the report, particularly in the 150 recommendations. Will he seek views on what areas should be given priority during the consultation process? I further ask the Minister to provide an assurance that the consultation exercise will not be used to slow down and frustrate justice reforms that are absolutely necessary, and to outline the areas to which he believes this statement in the report refers:

"Some aspects of the justice system of Northern Ireland have been remarkably resistant to change."

Finally, will the Minister tell us what level of contact Colin Stutt had with the judiciary, the Law Society and the Bar Council prior to publishing the report?

David Ford (Alliance, South Antrim)

I will try to respond to all those points, although my writing is perhaps not as fast as Mr Ross's questioning. I welcome the point that he highlighted about the justice innovation seminars that the Committee ran. I frequently talk about cooperation between the Department and the Committee, and I certainly welcome the Committee's work through those seminars. Unfortunately, I did not get to the most recent one, which looked at developing online systems and digital justice in certain ways, although I have had extremely positive reports on the seminar from officials who were present, as, indeed, I have had from the official who accompanied the Chair and the Deputy Chair to the Netherlands to look at its work earlier this year. I have no doubt that, as systems develop in different parts of the world, we can learn lessons in this area. If a system from the Netherlands is adaptable in parts of Canada, we may need to look at whether it is adaptable in Northern Ireland as well.

Mr Ross referred to prioritisation. When Members read the report, they will recognise that, of the 150 recommendations, some are overarching and strategic and others are relatively low-key and operational, not all of which fall to the DOJ. It is not possible for me to give a specific commitment as to how, for example, recommendations to the judiciary will be carried forward. As I said, I will discuss them with the Lord Chief Justice in the hope that the good work that he and Lord Justice Gillen have done in this area will inform the work of their colleagues to ensure that we continue to join up the system as far as we can.

I agree entirely with the Member that it is important that we get the consultation right and that it does not slow down the work that is under way. I give a commitment that my officials will continue to work through that.

It is not for me to comment on who Colin Stutt believes may have been resistant to change in the past. All I can say is that, over the past five and a half years, there has been a lot of change. Things have speeded up significantly. It has been a partnership that has involved the Department, including the Minister, the Committee and a number of other stakeholders, but, as we look at things, it is clear that we do not have unanimity across the justice system. I continue to hope that my officials, by engaging constructively with all our partners, will see that work enhanced. However, the reality is quite clearly spelled out in the report: we must make progress and see things moving forward, and we need to ensure that that is the case. My understanding is that, for Jim Daniell and Colin Stutt, that engagement started with a wide range of stakeholders. As the report was being done, there was an opportunity for people to comment at various stages. That will show that we are moving forward, but I now want to see the public response to the consultation.

Mitchel McLaughlin (Speaker, South Antrim)

As we move on, I make it clear that the Chairperson of the Committee gets a certain amount of leeway that is not available to other Members.

Raymond McCartney (Sinn Féin, Foyle)

Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as a ráiteas agus cuirim fáilte roimh an athbhreithniú seo. I welcome the fact that the Minister made this statement and that the report is now in place. I also welcome the Minister's very strident comment that he sees access to justice as a fundamental human right.

There is a notion in the report about resistance to change. Does the Minister envisage that the recommendations will turn into an implementation plan that we can all see and track to ensure that any resistance can be easily identified?

David Ford (Alliance, South Antrim)

As usual, it is a pleasure to welcome a comment from the Committee's Deputy Chair as well as from the Chair. I thank him for his welcome for the outline of the statement.

The report is out for consultation, but work is well under way on developing an implementation plan on the basis that we can move on some issues relatively speedily. I will see that that work is advanced as fast as possible. The consultation period will be slightly longer than usual because it will include the Christmas holidays. The intention is that the Department will report back to the Committee with full details after the consultation period is over and well in advance of the election in order to set the tone, frankly, for the next Assembly mandate should legislation be required and to put administrative change in place as fast as possible.

Claire Hanna (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast South)

I thank the Minister for his report. My colleague Alban Maginness is unavailable. Will you give us an assessment of the impact that you suspect the cutbacks might have on the advice sector?

David Ford (Alliance, South Antrim)

I thank Ms Hanna for being an able deputy for Alban Maginness. At least we did not get the barrister's view at that point. The key issue is to ensure that we make the best use of available resources, including the voluntary advice sector. That is part of looking at alternative ways of resolving issues. I do not think that we need to look with great fear at what the potential will be there. There are certainly recommendations to reduce levels of higher representation — as, indeed, have some of the changes that have been made — for example in family cases, but we will still see the benefits of the lower-level work that is done by solicitors or advice centres, without necessarily having the same number of QCs on every case.

The important issue, as I said earlier, is to ensure that there is access to justice and that individuals benefit from early access, but that we do not necessarily fund adversarial court cases if they are not what really produce justice for the individuals.

Neil Somerville (UUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

I welcome the statement that the Minister has brought forward. Can he provide an update on the pilot project to speed up the family court system, including when he expects the initial findings to be known?

David Ford (Alliance, South Antrim)

I cannot give the full detail of that at this stage. There are a number of issues that relate to the way in which the family justice system operates and there are other Departments that are involved in that, but, certainly, as we look at the details of it, I am quite happy to say that I will write to Mr Somerville as soon as possible to give him the details he has asked for.

Stewart Dickson (Alliance, East Antrim)

Thank you, Minister, for your statement. It is clearly part of your reforming Minister profile. Concern has been expressed about change to date and the potential changes in the future with regard to the number of people who may feel that they have to represent themselves in court — those known as litigants in person. Is there any evidence of that happening? How is the justice system going to cope with that, should it be a problem?

David Ford (Alliance, South Antrim)

I am happy to confirm that the last statistics I saw showed a reduction of something like 25% or 30% in the number of litigants in person appearing in court over the last four or five years, so they do not suggest that there has been any increase in litigants in person as a result of the changes that have been made in legal aid, a point that has been made at times but does not seem to have any substance at this stage.

I noted that there was a reference, although I do not think I could turn it up amongst the 270 pages at this point, to greater capacity for the use of the so-called McKenzie friends, who would assist individuals in court. I think that, if we are looking at fewer litigants in person and a greater ability for McKenzie friends to assist, we need have no fears.

Sammy Douglas (DUP, Belfast East)

I thank the Minister for his statement to the House this morning. I note the comments by Colin Stutt at page 71 of the report:

"the remarkable thing about the cost of legal aid in Northern Ireland is not that it exceeds its budget, but that it has remained stubbornly high throughout the current period of austerity, almost as if it was protected to the same extent as health."

Does the Minister accept that there has been a failure to properly set realistic legal aid budgets and ensure that spend is as close to the budget as possible? What does the Minister intend to do to rectify the situation prior to the setting of the 2016-17 budget?

David Ford (Alliance, South Antrim)

It is quite clear, as Mr Douglas said, that the cost of legal aid has remained stubbornly high and has not significantly changed over the five years since devolution. I could say that what would have happened if we had not implemented some of the reforms, particularly some of the criminal reforms that we went through at an early stage, is that we would be looking at a further £20 million or more on legal aid costs at present. Of course, it can go up and down. As part of an initiative to reduce waiting lists, particularly in the Belfast area, the Lord Chief Justice assigned an additional Crown Court judge to Laganside Court a couple of years ago, with the result that the criminal backlog decreased very significantly and the cost of legal defence went up significantly because those cases were dealt with.

Those are the kind of things that happen. It is the law of unintended consequences. When we did something good to benefit victims and, indeed, defendants, by getting cases heard more quickly, there was a rush to put those legal aid payments through.

The reality is that we had the budget that we had when justice was devolved, and we have sought to work within that budget given all the other pressures across the justice system. I know that my officials, whom I will be having discussions with later today, are looking at the budgeting process for next year and at the balance between different aspects of the justice system. The figures that applied on the basis of the budget and the application of cuts by the Executive are inadequate to meet current legal aid costs, but legal aid cannot be protected for ever when other aspects of the justice system are seeing their budgets going down.

Bronwyn McGahan (Sinn Féin, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

Go raibh maith agat. I thank the Minister for his statement. Can he elaborate on the research carried out to determine best international practice in the provision of legal aid in other comparable jurisdictions?

David Ford (Alliance, South Antrim)

I cannot give Ms McGahan the sort of blow-by-blow account of all the research that was done by Jim Daniell and Colin Stutt, but I know that they took every opportunity to look at other jurisdictions and see how matters were applied to legal aid there. The point is that it was not simply a matter of looking at legal aid; it was a matter of looking at access to justice and the best ways of ensuring access to justice for citizens, not just the best ways of managing legal aid.

Paul Frew (DUP, North Antrim)

The report deals with a wide spectrum of access to justice. Is it not short-sighted and, indeed, short-termism to go through with the proposed potential courthouse closures, given the fact that our justice system has not been modernised and reformed to the extent that people will be able to benefit from technology and other means of quicker access to justice?

David Ford (Alliance, South Antrim)

I am slightly baffled by Mr Frew's question on two grounds. The first is that courthouse closures have absolutely nothing to do with the access to justice report, and the other is that the points that he highlighted about different ways of doing justice, particularly as we look at the smaller number of cases coming into courts, would reinforce the point that we do not need as many courthouses as we have currently.

I hope to report to the Assembly on the proposals for the court estate within a few weeks. When Members look at the number of cases going through the courts compared to the numbers that went through five or 10 years ago, they will recognise that there is a very serious issue, which is that we cannot fund justice for our citizens if we are keeping roofs on buildings that are not needed.

Maurice (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

In the Minister's statement, he welcomed the retention of legal aid for judicial reviews and further welcomed the recommendations for tightening up access to that intervention when legal aid is expended. Apart from the options suggested for resolving disputes through alternative approaches, will he advise whether the process of tightening up includes intended judicial reviews being more rigorously assessed at leave stage to ensure that the grounds, evidence and potential of a successful outcome are fully scrutinised in order to merit the spending of legal aid?

David Ford (Alliance, South Antrim)

The simple answer to Lord Morrow is that this is an issue on which I will be looking for responses in the consultation, but I can certainly sympathise with his general point.

As the recipient of a very significant number of judicial review applications, either personally or slightly at second hand, which, in many cases, revolve around the Prison Service, it seems to me that, at times, there are real questions as to whether matters should not be better assessed elsewhere and that leave might not be granted for a judicial review until all available means have been covered. I can think of one or two particular cases, which I will not go into the details of. It took considerable staff time and ministerial time to seek to resolve those cases when they might have been resolved just as easily in a slightly different and more informal way. There is an issue about getting the balance right with judicial reviews to ensure that decisions can be covered, but also to ensure that all appropriate means are exhausted first.

Kieran McCarthy (Alliance, Strangford)

I thank the Minister for his statement. Is it fair to say that the review report effectively endorses his strategy of introducing standard fee arrangements, which ensure that legal representatives receive payments that are appropriate for the amount of work done? Does the Minister intend to stick to that strategy in civil cases?

David Ford (Alliance, South Antrim)

I thank Mr McCarthy for the question. I believe that significant benefits have come through the introduction of much greater dependence on standard fees in criminal cases in the past. Members may recall my complaining in the past about the assessment of too many criminal cases as very-high-cost cases. That was one of the key reforms in Crown Courts that reduced expenditure and brought them down to a more manageable level on that side.

The report refers to standard fees being applicable on the civil side as well, and I believe that to be a much better way for individuals to know what they will be paid; for the Legal Services Agency to know what it will be paying out; and to ensure, as far as possible and allowing for the fact that there will always be exceptionality, that we depend upon standard fees for simplification and assurance as to what expenditure will be.

Jim Allister (Traditional Unionist Voice, North Antrim)

The report seems to refer to our present legal aid scheme as "world class" and:

"an indispensable part of our justice system".

It states that it would be wholly inappropriate to reduce it to a minimum. That is not language that we are used to hearing from the Minister. However, he asked the reviewer to consider models to deliver publicly funded legal services through mechanisms other than legal aid. What mechanisms of that nature have been recommended? Is he still flirting with the idea of a public defender office?

David Ford (Alliance, South Antrim)

Had Mr Allister listened slightly more carefully, he would have heard that, whilst the report refers to us having a "world class" system of legal aid, I did not say that I believed it necessary to maintain the current system. I made the point that a decent legal aid system is a fundamental human right, but not everything within the current system will be. I also made the point that I welcome the fact that the report specifically says that we should not be going to the irreducible minimum. It is a fundamental human right that people should have a decent system. We need to look, as I highlighted and the report highlights, at a range of alternative dispute resolution.

I am not quite sure when I was "flirting" with a public defender system. The report makes it clear, and I accept the recommendation at present, that we should seek to maintain the current system for criminal defence. However, the reality is that adjacent jurisdictions have looked, at least in part, at a public defender system, and there are issues around management of costs that may well make that a necessary way in which this jurisdiction may have to look at some point in the future. If we can manage things under the current arrangements in a way that is affordable and sustainable, it is clearly the wish of many clients that they should have their full choice of a lawyer — and that is clearly the choice of those in legal practice, including Mr Allister himself in the past. We cannot guarantee that these things will continue in perpetuity, but there is a clear recommendation that there will be no change in that direction in the immediate future.

Private Members' Business

Steven Agnew (Green, North Down)

I beg to move

That the Children's Services Co-operation Bill [NIA 44/11/16] do now pass.

The Bill will place a statutory duty on children's authorities to cooperate with each other to better integrate the planning and delivery of children's services. The aim is to make the provision of services effective and efficient by ending the waste of silo working. The Bill will make good practice common practice, leading to better outcomes for children and young people.

It is four years since I had my first meeting with the Bill Office in relation to bringing forward this piece of work. It has been almost a year since I submitted the Bill to the Assembly at First Stage.

Undoubtedly, the Bill has evolved considerably since that original draft, and many changes have been made to the Bill since it was introduced at First Stage. That has been a result of consultation and, indeed, cooperative working with, among others, the Office of the First Minister and deputy First Minister, the children's sector and my team. The one thing that has not changed is the key intention of the Bill. That has remained consistent throughout. I have been delighted by the fact that those who engaged cooperatively in bringing the Bill forward and in amending it have done so in a way that has built on those original aims and improved the Bill and its effectiveness. As I acknowledged at previous stages, there was a fear that Departments, which, at one stage, may have been resistant to the Bill, would seek to water it down and undermine it. I am delighted that that has not been the case. Again, I place on record my thanks to the Office of the First Minister and deputy First Minister, in particular, for its work in relation to the Bill.

As far back as 2007, Eamon McTernan and Ann Godfrey published a paper on the need for an integrated children's system in Northern Ireland. My involvement with this policy proposal began when, as a researcher for Brian Wilson MLA, I represented him on the all-party group on children and young people. I am proud to say that, today, I am chair of that group. Back then, it was highlighted at a number of meetings that, whilst the 10-year strategy for children and young people was ambitious in its intent, there had been a poor record of delivery. Time and time again, reports were produced that said that a statutory duty to cooperate was required. That was included in reports by the UN Committee on the Rights of the Child; Queen's University; the Children's Commissioner, in a report commissioned by the commissioner on barriers to effective working for children and young people; the Criminal Justice Inspection, in its 2012 report on early youth interventions; and the OFMDFM Committee, in its report during the 2007-2011 mandate. A number of solutions were tried to improve delivery. They included the introduction of children's champions within each of the Departments and the ministerial subgroup for children and young people. More recently, it has included Delivering Social Change. Each was assessed as falling short of the fundamental culture shift that was needed in the inter-working between the Departments.

The point at which the penny dropped for me as to why a statutory duty to cooperate was needed was when I was sitting on the all-party group for children and young people and we received a presentation from the Department of Education on the draft early years strategy. It was to be a fundamental strategy on provision for children aged nought to six. I asked what, at that time, I felt was a perfectly innocent question: what work is being done on the strategy with the Department of Health? I was told that it was a Department of Education strategy. When I realised that the Department of Education did not engage with children until they were three, at the very earliest, I realised that I was being presented with a strategy for children from nought to six, which started at age three. That was unacceptable; indeed, it was a draft strategy that was widely criticised and which never came to fruition because of its deeply flawed nature. The purpose of the Bill is to ensure that such strategies are prepared between Departments, with cooperation and engagement, where relevant, by each and every Department.

That very much outlines the policy issues, but, of course, the key question for many people will be this: what difference will the legislation actually make? Through my work on the Bill, I came across a number of case studies. I wish to highlight two that were brought to me. The first is from the Children's Law Centre, which stated:

"we were asked to provide advice, assistance and representation for a child with excellent academic ability who has cerebral palsy and who attends a mainstream school. She uses a wheelchair and is able to walk with assistance. She requires regular daily physiotherapy in order to maintain her mobility and to access the wider curriculum. Due to the lack of cooperation between health and education and the resource implications for the ELB of conceding that physiotherapy was an educational need ... as well as a failure by the HSCT to provide for the child, this child was denied physiotherapy in a mainstream school, which she would have been able to access in a special school. She was expected to remain seated for 8 hours per day. This caused great distress and discomfort with the result that the child became acutely aware of her disability and her grades dropped considerably. The dispute carried on for over two years. The CLC commissioned a private physiotherapy report as part of ongoing legal proceedings in which we provided legal representation. Ultimately, after several hearings and lengthy negotiation, the matter was settled and arrangements made for therapy input. The child is doing very well at school, achieving excellent grades and engaging with all aspects of the curriculum. The unwillingness/inability of the health trusts to recommend and provide direct therapeutic support (in mainstream schools and increasingly also in special schools) and the concomitant reluctance of the ELBs to specify therapies as educational needs on the statement or to make provision at the school-based stages requires to be addressed. In our view, from a children's rights perspective there is no valid argument that can be made against a statutory duty to cooperate between health and education."

In that example, we can see how something that may appear simple, such as physiotherapy for a child at school, can get bogged down in wrangling between two Departments in an effort, it would appear, to avoid having to provide the resources. Indeed, one of the key elements, which I will speak more about later, is the ability of Departments to pool budgets. In such a case, a single pool could be drawn down from, either from the Department of Health or the Department of Education, whichever is in the position to provide the service. That would avoid the wrangling that comes with Departments seeking to avoid costs when clearly they have a duty of care to a child or young person.

The next example comes from my constituency and is from a family in Bangor. It was highlighted in the media at the time, locally and regionally. The child, named Josh, has type-1 diabetes and is currently in primary school. His mum, Helen, had been totally frustrated at the time that it took to have adequate resources put in place to support him. The education board did not have the resources to get a report collated for his statement in a timely manner. In the end, it took nine months to complete the statement. In the meantime, there was no one to administer insulin to Josh, a type-1 diabetic child. In the end, staff volunteered to undergo training until a classroom assistant could be recruited. Recruitment took six months, and the training took a further three months. Helen believes that the Children's Services Co-operation Bill would have helped, as it would have required that her child be at the centre, with decisions made in his best interests. She thinks that there needs to be something in place so that schools have a duty of care to the child, with cooperation between the education and health sectors required.

That caused significant distress to the family. Again, the processes between the Department of Health and the Department of Education were not as efficient as they could be. It was well known to the Health Department that the child had diabetes. The school was informed. The education board was made aware well in advance of him starting school, yet, when September came, the provision was not in place, and much anguish and stress was caused to that family unnecessarily.

So, what does the Bill do to improve the systems that are in place when it comes to these cases? The key element of the Bill is a statutory duty to cooperate on all children's authorities to improve the well-being of children. The children's authorities include the Northern Ireland Departments, councils, the health and social care trusts, the Health and Social Care Board, the Public Health Agency, the Education Authority, the Northern Ireland Housing Executive, the PSNI and the Probation Board for Northern Ireland. It is, effectively, the Northern Ireland Departments and the membership of the children and young people's strategic partnership.

While a lot of work was being done to have the good practice of the children and young people's strategic partnership enshrined as a statutory agency, that was not able to be achieved as part of the Bill. The final amendment could not be agreed on, but I am pleased that the Department of Health is considering bringing forward, as part of its own legislative framework, proposals to do just that. While it may not be achieved by this Bill, I hope that the work that has gone into producing this Bill will see it achieved some time in the future. I know that the children's sector will be lobbying hard to make sure that that becomes a reality.

In the Bill, well-being has been defined by the six high-level outcomes that were in the 10-year strategy for children and young people and which had been agreed between government and the statutory sector. To provide clarity, the six outcomes became seven in the redrafting of the Bill and a further outcome was introduced in an amendment by Chris Lyttle to include equality of opportunity, and good relations. The other outcomes include physical and mental health; the enjoyment of play and leisure; learning and achievement; living in safety with stability; economic and environmental well-being; the making by them, ie the children, of a positive contribution to society; and living in a society which respects their rights.

In the spirit of the Bill, those outcomes were agreed cooperatively and have widespread support throughout the children's voluntary sector and, indeed, from the Children's Commissioner. One aspect of the Bill is that it allows amendments to be made to change those aspects of well-being. However, importantly, it also includes a requirement that consultation would be required before such changes could be made. That was important in order to give comfort to the sector that the aims and objectives that it works to will not be changed without its input.

The Bill also requires the Office of the First Minister and deputy First Minister to produce a children's strategy. The aspect of consultation is key to that. Any such strategy should be outcomes-based, and children and parents must be consulted in its preparation. Again, it is important that we have enshrined in the Bill, in effect, article 12 of the UNCRC; the right of children to have a say in decisions that directly affect their lives. I pay tribute to OFMDFM because this is an additional clause to the original draft of the Bill and it came forward from the Office of the First Minister and deputy First Minister at their suggestion. I welcome its inclusion in the Bill.

All along, I have been keen to highlight the importance in the Bill of the pooling of resources. If we are to make the delivery of children's services efficient, this is a necessary outworking. While the provision in the Bill is an enabling power to allow Departments to pool resources, I believe that a key check as to whether the Bill is implemented in the spirit in which it is intended is when Departments begin to pool resources where there are common objectives in relation to children.

I welcome the amendment from the Minister of Finance and Personnel, who stated at Further Consideration Stage that it would ensure:

"The goal of a smarter, more streamlined and better targeted system". — [Official Report, Vol 108, No 5, p13, col 1].

The evidence is there that integrated working can improve the efficient running of government. I ask that, in producing the procedures, the Department of Finance and anybody else interested in gaining a better understanding of pooled budgets and the difference between pooled and aligned budgets look to the guidance from the Department for Communities and Local Government, which I have found very informative in helping my understanding of how this can and should work. I will give an example of where it has worked well in England: Brighton and Hove City Council made savings of a quarter of a million pounds in one year in its children's budget as a result of integrated working. The cost of foster care was reduced from £561 a week to £487 a week. This is not something that just sounds good in theory; in practice, when implemented, it produces results.

The Bill also requires reports on the operation of the Act: the first will be 18 months after the adoption of the children's strategy, and there will be further reports every three years thereafter. One of the questions consistently asked was this: if Departments do not cooperate, what will be the sanction? The reporting is a key aspect of holding Departments and Ministers to account, making them accountable to the Assembly and the wider public. There was debate about whether this should be an independent report, but the feedback was that self-assessment was an important part of ensuring the operation of the Bill. Indeed, the Children's Commissioner has the power to issue her own report if she feels that that is necessary. She has certainly indicated that it is likely that the commission will produce a report alongside that of the Office of the First Minister and deputy First Minister.

A key requirement of the report is reporting not only on what has been done but on where greater cooperation could be achieved and what other opportunities have been identified to improve cooperation. Megan Fearon's amendment added further accountability by requiring the Executive to take account of the report in their preparation of the Programme for Government. I welcome the amendment, which adds an extra layer to the Bill through its impact on changing the workings of government in Northern Ireland.

In January, over 40 organisations involved with children attended the launch in support of the Bill. They included Children in Northern Ireland, the umbrella group for many NGOs in the children's sector, and many of its members were in attendance; the Children's Law Centre, which today provided an example of how it sees that the Bill could impact on and improve children's lives; and the Children's Commissioner. It was the commission's research, along with other research, that helped to inform the Bill and produce the evidence that a statutory duty to cooperate was needed. All along, from when I first joined the all-party group for children and young people, I very much felt that this Bill was the children's sector's Bill. It is a Bill for children, but it is a Bill whose genesis rests in the children's sector. Its work, lobbying and research are what drove me to introduce it. I feel privileged to present the Bill to the Assembly today on the sector's behalf. I thank every organisation that has contributed to the Bill, whether through my initial consultation or the consultation by the Committee for OFMDFM. I thank them for promoting the Bill and lobbying the Departments.

I highlighted that, for me, the genesis of the Bill was four years ago. Whilst it has been a long and challenging process, that time has allowed those who at the outset may have been resistant to the provisions of the Bill to come on board and to better understand how it can improve their working and the outcomes for children in Northern Ireland.

I again thank the Office of the First Minister and deputy First Minister, which has worked consistently to improve the Bill to make sure that it is as effective as possible. I am delighted that both junior Ministers are here today and that one of them will respond to the debate on behalf of the Department. I also thank the Department of Health and the Health and Social Care Board; a considerable amount of the Bill will have a direct impact on them. Again, they have worked constructively with me to get amendments to ensure that, from their point of view, the Bill is effective. I thank the Department of Finance and Personnel, particularly for its input on the pooling of budgets.

Furthermore, I thank the Committee for OFMDFM. I think that I presented to it on five occasions in total; indeed, before the legislation was produced in its original draft, it has engaged on the Bill from an early stage. The questions and scrutiny have been constructive and instructive. At all times, the Committee has challenged but also supported me through the process. The Bill is better for its input and, indeed, for the report that it produced and the evidence that it took as part of its sessions. I also thank the Assembly Bill Office. Going back four years, it was clear that this would be complex legislation, and I have received excellent guidance through the process. We have faced frustrations with drafting and, if it had not been for their continued support, the Bill would not have seen the light of day. Finally, I thank my former researcher Ross Brown, now an elected rep in his own right, for the considerable research that he did in pulling together the evidence to show that, where a statutory duty has been implemented elsewhere, it has achieved results.

The intention behind the Bill is to improve services in a number of areas, including special educational needs and children in care. A final "Thank you" goes to VOYPIC, which has been constructive in its input on and support for the Bill. I hope that the Bill will improve early years provision by making the delivery of services more timely and allowing for the early intervention that is so key in children's lives. I hope that it will help to build on the work of the Children's Commissioner in highlighting the parallel processes between health and education in the transition to adult services for children with various support needs and, indeed, the youth justice system, where, on release, support with housing and education is required with the Department of Justice. I hope that it will improve those interdepartmental workings.

The Bill is about making government work effectively for children. It is about making good practice common practice and ensuring that resources for children are spent on children. I commend the Children's Services Co-operation Bill to the House.

Mike Nesbitt (UUP, Strangford)

I thank Mr Agnew for his opening remarks and welcome the Final Stage of the Children's Services Co-operation Bill. As I said at an earlier stage, with the OFMDFM Committee’s experience of bringing forward the Public Services Ombudsperson Bill, we all have some appreciation of the time and effort required to bring a Bill through the House.

Committee members heard support for the aims of the Children's Services Co-operation Bill from a range of stakeholders during its examination at Committee Stage. However, concerns were expressed at an early stage by officials from the Department that the Bill as introduced to the Assembly would not meet its own objectives. The Committee is aware that, throughout Committee Stage, significant work was undertaken by departmental officials, who engaged with the Bill's sponsor and stakeholders to consider how the Bill could be improved.

Unfortunately, a final set of amendments was not available by the time the Committee undertook its clause-by-clause scrutiny, although the Department had provided a revised draft of what the Bill could look like. While supportive of the principles, the Committee opposed the clauses of the Bill as drafted. Members were supportive of the direction of travel outlined by OFMDFM in relation to a number of issues, but that support was, of course, subject to sight of any final amendments. The Bill before us today at Final Stage has been amended significantly from that which was introduced on 8 December 2014, and, indeed, it reflects some of the changes that had been considered by the Committee in its engagement with departmental officials.

I commend Mr Agnew’s willingness to listen to others and to bring forward changes that should, ultimately, strengthen the legislation and deliver better services for our children and young people.

I will now make some remarks in a personal capacity, beginning by noting that the official papers that accompany the legislation remind us that the background and policy objectives go back 15 years to the tragic death in London of Victoria Climbié, a nine-year-old who was tortured and murdered by her guardians in 2000, and the shocking revelations at the time that many people had noted that she had signs of abuse. Local churches knew of her and knew of the signs of abuse; the health service knew of her and knew of signs of abuse; the police knew of her and knew of signs of abuse. Equally, the NSPCC and no fewer than four local authorities knew, and none acted. Victoria's case led to the public inquiry by Lord Laming, and, from that, the introduction at Westminster of the Children's Act 2004.

Here in Northern Ireland, I remember well one of the first cases that I dealt with as a journalist at Ulster Television. It was of a man who had been released from jail having served time for child sex abuse offences and yet had managed to get himself a job that included taking charge of a residential home in the Mournes where vulnerable young people went for respite care. It happened because the statutory agencies and the community and voluntary sector agencies that were aware of him at that time had no legal obligation to share information. Sharing and cooperation is at the heart of Mr Agnew's Bill, covering much more than child protection and, hopefully, tackling poverty. We are aware in the House of the high and increasing levels of child poverty and, indeed, of the recent case brought by the Committee on the Administration of Justice against OFMDFM for its failure to bring forward an anti-poverty strategy.

The intent of the Bill is consistent with my thinking and the Ulster Unionists' thinking on the best way for government to deliver positive outcomes, breaking away from the traditional delivery through vertical silos, where you have a Minister of Education, a Minister of housing and a Minister of health services operating in isolation, and remembering that it is not about education but about educational opportunities for people, social housing for people, health services for people, people who need us to cut through the vertical and start delivering horizontally through all the layers, Departments and silos of government to offer a holistic and individual package that meets their needs. That is why we are so pleased that the Stormont House Agreement recognised the advantages of, after the next election, setting aside time to discuss and, hopefully, agree a Programme for Government ahead of running d'Hondt, at which point the parties and the Ministers retreat into those vertical silos.

I believe that, if we create space for a fortnight's talks, we can make the space and time to agree a Programme for Government that will look horizontally at the issues. For example, if we consider that we want to tackle educational underachievement, we will agree that it is not just a matter for the Minister of Education. We know that healthier children will do better at school, and so there is a role for the Department of Health. We know that children need good housing, and so there is a role there for the Minister for Social Development. And so on and so forth. The Bill is consistent with our view of how you deliver the best positive outcomes from this devolved Government for the people of Northern Ireland, and I will be most interested therefore in seeing how Mr Agnew's Bill, in the sharing of resources and the pooling of funds, makes a positive difference for our young people as we go forward.

Mr Agnew made it clear in his remarks that the Bill is not perfect in his eyes. That is not actually the point. The point is that it is moving in the right direction. It is not just me, the Committee or the Department saying that; the practitioners and stakeholders believe that the Bill broadly pushes in the right direction for better results.

Towards the end of the last mandate, I heard an Executive Minister being pressed as to why they had not made a decision on a particular issue, and they defended their position by saying, "This is a very important issue and, therefore, we must take the time to make the right decision". I think that, in life, there is very often not a right decision. I think that, in life, there are very often a number of options, all of which may advance matters but all of which also have downsides that need to be managed. Therefore, it becomes a judgement call. I think that that is the case with the Bill, and my judgement call is that it moves matters in the right direction. It quite possibly has downsides that will need addressed. The Bill has reporting mechanisms, so we can look at continuous improvement. This is not an end but a beginning of a new process, and I very much believe and hope that it will deliver better outcomes through forcing, demanding and expecting cooperation from Departments and agencies for the benefit of our children and young people. On that basis, I support Mr Agnew's Bill.

Stephen Moutray (DUP, Upper Bann)

I rise on behalf of the DUP to support the Final Stage of the Children's Services Co-operation Bill as introduced and brought to the House by Mr Steven Agnew and the subsequent changes at each stage throughout the process. At the outset, I commend the Member for his work, and I am happy to say that the DUP supports the policy intention behind the Bill.

We all want our children and young people to be involved in decision-making and want there to be a statutory duty on government and its Departments and agencies to cooperate in the planning, commissioning and delivery of children's services. There is a duty on Departments to cooperate with each other in the planning, commissioning and delivery of the children's services, and it will enhance the ability of pooled budgets, which ultimately allow for a resource-efficient way of delivering shared aims and outcomes.

I spoke on the Bill some time ago in the House and highlighted the Scottish model, Getting it Right for Every Child, which was aimed at promoting and coordinating across organisational and departmental boundaries to put children and young people at the heart of decision-making and give them the best start in life. I believe that, with the amendments and the reworking of the Bill since its initial form, we have been able to ensure that we, too, in Northern Ireland are able, like our Scottish counterparts, to connect sector providers with government so that people work collaboratively to deliver. Our aim, as a Government, should be to help children and young people reach their full potential. Some will travel through life with little or no issues; others will experience challenges; and, indeed, some will experience very complex issues. We must not be found wanting in our attempts to assist them come what may. I want every child and young person, as it says in the Bill, to be healthy; to enjoy learning and achieving; to be able to live in a society with stability; to experience economic and environmental well-being; to contribute positively to a community and society; and to live in a society that respects their rights. I support the Bill.

Megan Fearon (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. I welcome the opportunity to speak on this Bill. I start by congratulating Steven Agnew for all his hard work in bringing this important piece of legislation forward. It has been a long road and a lot of hard work by a lot of people, as he said. He mentioned that it was four years since the beginning of the Bill. It is a win for him and for the children's sector today. I regret that I was not able to be here for Further Consideration Stage. I thank my colleagues for moving my amendment about the Programme for Government. I am pleased that it was passed.

This is a good Bill. It will have a great impact on society and the lives of our families and children. I am sure that we all received a letter from CiNI outlining its support for the Bill and giving a real-life example of how this Bill could have helped a girl many years ago. That shows us the importance of putting the interests of our children first. I welcome the fact that the Bill will make existing good practice in cooperation normal practice — or common practice, as Steven Agnew put it. We achieve our best results when working together. In a political sense, yesterday's result shows that.

A lot more work has to be done on this Bill, because a few issues could not be resolved in time for each stage. I am more than happy to continue to work with Mr Agnew and whoever within the children's sector or the House to progress those issues and make this the best Bill possible in the future. I am looking forward to the report on the operation and results of the Bill in less that two years' time, and to see how we can learn from and improve on that. We have all been frustrated at one point by the silo mentality of government. I am hoping that this Bill will change mindsets in that regard. I would like to see the roll-out of this collaborative approach to other important areas of government such as job creation, economic growth and tackling poverty, as others mentioned.

I am happy to support the Bill and glad to have played a part. Again, I congratulate Steven. It is a good day for our families and children, and a well-deserved win for the children's sector. I also welcome the new junior Minister to the Chamber.

Alex Attwood (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast West)

In his opening remarks, Mr Agnew referred to the fact that in 2007 there was a policy proposal in relation to that which is before the House today. It has taken eight years to get from there to here, which is far too long. However, in a society that clings to the past and resists change, it might not have been so long after all.

Like everybody else, I acknowledge Mr Agnew's particular and personal contribution to creating the space and working the ground in relation to what will be known as Agnew's children's Bill, which is about not just his children but all our children across Northern Ireland. As he also rightly pointed out, more importantly than that, it is the children's sector children's Bill. For the 40 organisations that gathered with him when he launched his consultation on the content of the Bill, it is a measure of their work that another good private Member's Bill will pass through the House today.

Mr Agnew asked what difference it will make. He said that there needed to be a culture shift, and that is what is going to be required. In order to bring about a culture shift — as we know in relation to other embedded issues in our society, both current and historical — you need good law, robust process, strong leadership, clear accountability and strong performance. If any of those pillars are missing in how this legislation is now taken forward, there will be gaps in measuring up to the needs of children and young people.

For that reason, in acknowledging the presence of the new junior Minister in the Chamber, I will also ask her a number of questions.

There will be two in particular. This Bill will receive Royal Assent, probably before Christmas, and will become a statutory duty of government into next year, the next mandate and beyond. So, I have two questions for her.

First, at Consideration Stage — when the Alliance Party tabled an amendment in relation to, I think, clause 2, which referred to equality and good relations — I, and I think maybe others were thinking it, expressed a little bit of caution. We now have a situation where the principles that govern practice cover a wide range of children's needs and welfare informed by international instruments. We also have a reference to good relations and equality. Given that this has been introduced and is the will of the Assembly, and given the nature of those concepts, can she confirm that she and OFMDFM are satisfied that there will not be any unnecessary tensions within those principles arising from the good sentiment that informed the Alliance Party amendment in respect of equality and good relations? These are very big concepts. At times, the balance between, or the hierarchy of, equality and good relations has been a matter of some discussion if not dispute. I would like to hear from the junior Minister how she anticipates the principles being worked through in a way whereby there are no inherent tensions. I think that that can be dealt with, but I would like to hear from the junior Minister in that regard.

I come to my second question. This will all be measured in practice. The paint is not yet dry on the content of the Bill. However, given that a body of officials have been working on this, thinking about this and working with Ministers in relation to all of it, can the junior Minister indicate if there is now some further thinking about how this will be mainstreamed into the life of OFMDFM and, thereafter, mainstreamed into the life of government? In that regard, given that there is ongoing work, as I understand it, in respect of the Programme for Government and that we are a short number of months from the next Assembly election, if it is not earlier, how does the junior Minister anticipate this Bill and the obligations placed on government being mainstreamed into the next Programme for Government? If the Bill is passed today and receives Royal Assent by Christmas, it will be tested in real time and very quickly, given that there is about to be a new mandate and there will be agreement in relation to the content of the Programme for Government.

In conclusion, I acknowledge the work of the Bill Office. If you look at the Assembly's programme of work for the next number of weeks, you will see that there is less and less private Member's business, if any, and more and more business of legislation. The responsibilities that fall to the Bill Office, especially at the end of a mandate, are very substantial. The fact that this has progressed from Mr Agnew's opening meeting in January to a Bill being passed in early November is a measure of the good authority of all those involved, not least the Bill Office.

Chris Lyttle (Alliance, Belfast East)

I welcome the opportunity to respond. The Alliance Party has had an Assembly manifesto commitment to support legislation that would introduce a statutory duty for all Departments to cooperate and collaborate. That is needed across a wide range of issues, but perhaps most notably in relation to children and young people's issues. It is for that reason that I am glad to welcome the Final Stage of the Children's Services Co-operation Bill and, like others, commend its proposer, Mr Agnew. It has been a pleasure to work closely with Mr Agnew on children and young people's issues, most particularly as members of the all-party group on children and young people. All-party groups sometimes get a hard time in the Assembly, but the all-party group on children and young people has shown itself to bring together elected representatives across parties, organisations and Departments on key issues affecting children and young people, and it is achieving outcomes as a result. I also acknowledge the work conducted by the Office of the First Minister and deputy First Minister and its officials in relation to enhancing the provisions of the Bill; the Committee for the Office of the First Minister and deputy First Minister, of which I am Deputy Chair; and the hard work of the officials at Committee Stage.

I acknowledge the contributions of all elected representatives who have contributed to making the Bill a strong mechanism to ensure more effective government delivery for children and young people across Northern Ireland. I also welcome the presence of the junior Ministers to respond to this stage of the Bill today. I congratulate Emma Pengelly on her appointment as junior Minister in the Office of the First Minister and deputy First Minister. I am glad that I have the opportunity of knowing Emma beyond the Assembly. I have a good working relationship with her. She has received scrutiny further to her appointment that, at times, has spilt over into unfair and inappropriate criticism, but no doubt she and I will continue to have robust exchange and scrutiny opportunities beyond today's debate.

There have been problems related to the coordination of the planning, commissioning and delivering of children's services. The Bill will make a significant contribution towards addressing those, and to the development and implementation of strong policy and legislation for children and young people. The centre for children's rights at Queen's University and the Children's Commissioner conducted work to investigate barriers to effective government delivery for children. They identified the need for stronger working together and joined-up government in relation to those issues.

There are significant ongoing inequalities and challenges to address for our children and young people in terms of child poverty, health and educational achievement in order to ensure that they have the opportunity to live in a safe and shared society. It is my hope that the Bill will make a significant contribution to meeting those challenges. The UN, as I have mentioned at other stages of the Bill, has warned that the failure to achieve positive outcomes for children is one of the most costly mistakes that a society can make. The Alliance Party will continue to work collaboratively with all elected representatives and political parties, and in government, to ensure that we do not make that mistake in Northern Ireland and that we work to deliver for our children and young people. I commend the Bill to the Assembly.

Sandra Overend (UUP, Mid Ulster)

It is my pleasure, as the Ulster Unionist spokesperson for children and young people, to support the Children's Services Co-operation Bill in its Final Stage today. I congratulate Mr Agnew on bringing it forward and pursuing such good aims and objectives.

The lack of cooperation and joined-up government has shown to be of detriment to the people of Northern Ireland time and again. With issues relating to children, failings in their early years have the potential to have an effect on the rest of their lives. I am sure that no MLA, in their work for constituents and in dealing with various and numerous issues, has failed to see the gaps and the failures of Departments in not working together. Most memorable to me are the many delays that children experience in relation to statementing for special educational needs. In those instances, it is essential that the Department of Education and the Health Department work effectively and efficiently together in a timely manner. Often, that is not the case; delays are experienced, and the result is that the child does not receive the help and support they need at the time in their development when they need it most.

I understand that various children's representative bodies support the legislation, not only in the implementation of policy but, importantly, in the making of policy and strategies. Indeed, the chief executive of Children in Northern Ireland, an umbrella group that has already been mentioned, has written to me and, I am sure, many other Members. She said:

"In recent years in Northern Ireland, critical chances for better outcomes for children and young people have been missed as key strategies have been insufficiently developed, implemented or integrated across government departments. So much more could be achieved for children and their families if there were greater levels of co-operation in policy design and implementation across government departments."

It is my hope that, when Departments finally get round to pulling together a cross-departmental strategy for Internet safety, the Bill will make such policy streamlined and effective and there will be natural cooperation on all these matters. The issue of Internet safety is cross-cutting. The Department of Education is responsible for children in schools and youth services; the Department of Health is responsible for safeguarding children and young people; and the Department of Justice needs to sing from the same hymn sheet in relation to laws, sentencing and deterrence.

It seems to me that, so far, the Office of the First Minister and deputy First Minister is not taking responsibility for overseeing such a cross-cutting strategy. It is my hope that this legislation will impose proper checks and balances in that regard. At this stage, I welcome the new junior Minister to her post; it is good to see her in the Chamber this morning.

I am content with the reporting responsibilities contained in the Bill. Good results should be prevalent in the report, and it is necessary that children's authorities work with the Executive Departments in its preparation and, furthermore, that it should include recommendations and opportunities for future cooperation. I am pleased that it will be live legislation, so to speak, with potential for improvements as time progresses. I support the Bill: it is an opportunity to set aside the silo mentality of Departments and work together for the benefit of children's services in Northern Ireland. I hope that such work will be catching and will spread across other sectors in the Assembly.

Mitchel McLaughlin (Speaker, South Antrim)

I welcome and congratulate Emma Pengelly on her recent appointment and call on her to respond to the debate.

Emma Little-Pengelly (DUP, Belfast South)

Thank you, Mr Speaker. I welcome the opportunity to speak on this important matter. First, I commend Mr Agnew for the work he has undertaken to bring the Bill to Final Stage. He has acknowledged that there were some serious initial concerns about the Bill, but we appreciate that it has been significantly revised since it was introduced in December and that many of the amendments were a result of Mr Agnew's constructive collaboration with the sector, with Departments and particularly with the Office of the First Minister and deputy First Minister. There is no doubt that the Bill has been improved by the amendments, and many of the concerns that were raised by Members at Second Stage have now been addressed. The Bill before the House today is now clearly focused on ensuring that all relevant bodies work together to improve the well-being of our children and young people. We understand that the Office of the Legislative Counsel has supported the work on the amendments and informed the thinking of officials and the Member as the Bill has been revised. As always, the expertise and knowledge of counsel is greatly appreciated, and the Bill is better for its valued contribution.

OFMDFM, the Executive and, I am sure, everyone in the Assembly want to see our children and young people achieve their potential. We want them to be healthy, achieve in education, have time and space to play, experience economic well-being and contribute positively to society. Those goals transcend normal departmental boundaries, and, in fact, I believe that they transcend normal party political boundaries.

No Department, agency or organisation can on its own improve the well-being of our children and young people. The issues facing our children and young people are so vast and varied that an holistic approach is required, and cooperation and collaboration are key. Of course, there are already examples of good practice in government. The Delivering Social Change framework driven forward by the Office of the First Minister and deputy First Minister has encouraged Departments to work closely on the delivery of schemes such as the family support hubs, the numeracy and literacy scheme and the nurture units, delivering over £36 million worth of anti-poverty programmes in the last four to five years. The early intervention and transformation programme has also involved a number of Departments working on the co-funded delivery of better outcomes for children. It is now important that we work together to turn that good practice into common practice.

It is clear that the Bill's intention is to ensure that organisations work better to deliver better outcomes to support better lives. The definition of well-being in clause 1 is welcome, given that it aligns closely with the current children and young persons strategy. It also provides a clear purpose to the duty to cooperate prescribed at clause 2. The issue of well-being in our policy work is something that we are actively exploring for further application.

The Bill places a number of duties on the Executive. They will be expected to introduce arrangements to promote cooperation, to develop a new strategy for children and young people and to report on progress in the achievement of key outcomes. In each of those duties, it is important that the focus remains on the well-being of the child or young person. The strategy and progress reports must focus on continually improving well-being. That is all the more welcome as the Office of the First Minister and deputy First Minister has been at the forefront of some exciting and innovative work in driving forward outcomes-based monitoring and outcomes-focused policy development.

The Bill provides potential opportunities for authorities to pool budgets in order to carry out activities that improve well-being. In a time of reduced budgets, it is important that Departments consider innovative ways of achieving outcomes with less funding. We welcome the amendment tabled by the Finance Minister that will allow DFP to produce further regulations on the issue. That should provide greater clarity for bodies wishing to pool budgets and ensure that the practice is not undermined by poor procedures.

I turn briefly to the points raised by Mr Attwood. On the good relations and equality duty, the relationship between section 75(1) and (2) is well established, and I know that the Member is well aware of that. I am confident that there will be no difficulty. Section 75(2) is, of course, without prejudice to section 75(1). However, the good relations duty is a severable duty on all public authorities. Sometimes, that can be overlooked, but I believe that the perceived tension between section 75(1) and section 75(2) can easily be addressed.

Mr Attwood asked about mainstreaming. In my view, the Bill is entirely in line with the work that we have been doing in OFMDFM on collaborative design or co-design, as it is known, and on collaboration on a cross-departmental and cross-agency basis. It is in that context that the Bill is, if I may use the term, pushing at an open door. I am confident that it can be mainstreamed in the next Programme for Government because that is the context in which we are developing a range of new initiatives.

Alex Attwood (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast West)

Will the Minister give way?

Emma Little-Pengelly (DUP, Belfast South)

Yes.

Alex Attwood (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast West)

For the first time; not for the last time.

I hear what the Minister says about pushing at an open door, but I think that the sense of the Bill, in many places, is that it should be a game changer and that that should be manifest in a qualitative change in the relationships between government and agencies in respect of the statutory duties and a qualitative change in how the Programme for Government is shaped around those duties. Do you acknowledge that that might be the ambition that people have, whilst noting the work of OFMDFM in that regard to date?

Emma Little-Pengelly (DUP, Belfast South)

As the Member is aware from many long hours of negotiation, I am not somebody who gives way very easily.

I do not think that we really want there to have to be a statutory duty for people to cooperate, and I suppose that that is what I am trying to get at. A statutory duty in that sense is the last resort. We want agencies and Departments to want to work together to reach better outcomes for our young people. I believe that, in the work that we have carried on through the Office of the First Minister and deputy First Minister, we see that change starting to permeate across Departments and agencies. I think that it is a change of culture, as opposed to one necessarily of statute. I absolutely welcome the Bill — it is a useful contribution to that — but we will continue to work our hardest to ensure that there is willingness at all levels to cooperate and collaborate fully on these important issues.

If the Bill is supported by the House today — I understand that it will be — that will be only a first step. Consideration will be required of how cooperation can be promoted and integrated working supported. A key element of that will be getting the next children and young people's strategy right. Work is already under way in the Department on the next strategy, given that the existing one concludes in 2016. It is therefore timely that this legislation has come into play. The new strategy will be expected to consider the key issues facing children and young people and outline how government will work collaboratively to improve the well-being of our children and young people. OFMDFM wishes to develop the new strategy through co-design and engaging with Departments, external stakeholders and children and young people throughout the process to gather views, test assumptions and develop an agreed approach.

The Bill has highlighted the need for better cooperation in this vital policy area. The range of outcomes that we wish to achieve for our children and young people can be realised only if we all work together. Mr Speaker, I support the Bill.

Steven Agnew (Green, North Down)

I thank the House for its consideration of the Bill from the preliminary stages, when the Committee for the Office of the First Minister and the deputy First Minister took an early interest in the Bill, until today, when there appears to be unanimous support for it.

In his contribution, the Chair of the Committee brought our attention back to the horrific case of Victoria Climbié, which caused a culture shift in England and led, ultimately, to the Children Act 2004 on the back of Lord Laming's report. It was to that legislation that I looked originally when seeking to produce this Bill. We do not want such horrific cases to happen again — I will not go back over the details, as they are considerably upsetting — and preventing that type of atrocity through better joined-up working by our services is certainly one of the key aims of the Bill. Mr Nesbitt highlighted that it is not about Ministers, Departments or institutions; ultimately, it is about the people whom they are set up to serve. The Bill is about ensuring that the child is at the centre of the work that Departments do.

Mr Nesbitt highlighted the benefit of agreeing the Programme for Government before d'Hondt is run — it was part of the Stormont House Agreement — and of how agreeing how each Department will work before we know which party will take each post could improve governance in Northern Ireland. I do not think that is in doubt or that any of us here would deny that we can improve how we do governance in this part of the world. This Bill, along with that proposal, should it be implemented, the work on John McCallister's private Member's Bill and, indeed, when it comes forward, the Bill to reform the number of Departments, can be another significant step in the evolution of the Assembly and in how we deliver for the people of Northern Ireland. Change is needed, and, collectively, those proposals can improve the effectiveness of these institutions. There is a public perception — I think it is an accurate one — that the institutions are not as effective as they could be. We only need to look at Scotland to see how much more their devolved institutions have been able to achieve for their people to recognise that we can and should do more in Northern Ireland. I hope and believe that this legislation will play its part in that.

I will reflect on some other Members' contributions. Mr Moutray — I thank him for indicating his support — talked about the Bill as a resource-efficient way of delivering shared aims and outcomes among the Departments. Indeed, he mentioned the good work in Scotland. I took time to meet the children's Minister there. She happens to be an old friend, but, on this occasion, it was purely a business meeting to see the work that they have done on their Children and Young People Act. Again, that was government legislation, and there is much in it that we can look to in how we deliver for children, not least one proposal that I was impressed by, which was having a named person for all children. That is something that we should look to in this Assembly to ensure that every child has a named adult to whom they can go for support in navigating the statutory services.

Megan Fearon recast my phrase about making good practice common practice by saying that we should make good practice normal practice. I like that phraseology: we should make the good normal. Delivering for children should be what we do. She also said that it was a good day for children and families. Again, I welcome her support.

Mr Attwood said that this was Agnew's children's Bill, and he said that it should be about more than my children. I absolutely agree: as a father of young children, I see the challenges for parents in navigating statutory services, and I understand the frustrations. He is right in saying that this is about all children in Northern Ireland. We often talk about vulnerable children, but let me be clear that this is about all children. It is to ensure that there are no gaps through which vulnerable children can fall. When we provide the net for all, we catch all, including vulnerable children. It will ensure that those who need the support get it, because, often, we spend too much time trying to identify who the vulnerable are and not enough time providing the services required.

Chris Lyttle spoke of the work of the all-party group on children and young people. That is an important point. The group is not a formal mechanism of the Assembly, but it provides vital input into the work that we do. I hope that, on this occasion, it provides an example of politicians listening, because it was through that forum that the idea of having a private Member's Bill came forward. It shows that, through civic engagement, the Assembly can deliver more. Undoubtedly, politicians do not have a monopoly on good ideas. We should listen and engage, and legislative change such as this can come about as a result.

I welcome Sandra Overend's support, and I commend her because she highlighted the work that she is doing and the important need to improve Internet safety and how the aim of protecting and safeguarding children can be achieved only if Departments such as Health, Education and Justice work together in common cause.

Excuse me, Mr Speaker, I have too many notes. Finally, I welcome Ms Pengelly to her role as junior Minister. I welcome her contribution to the debate today and, indeed, any work that she did on the Bill in her previous role, when I was working with the Office of the First Minister and deputy First Minister. There was a collective effort in that office to improve the Bill. I welcome the commitment that this is pushing an open door and this is the direction of travel for the Department.

She said that it is really just the start, and that is key. The passing of the legislation is not an end in itself. The end is the effective delivery of services to children.

It is incumbent on this Assembly in the mandate's remaining time and particularly on the next Assembly to scrutinise the work of the various Departments to ensure that the Bill's potential and vision are realised. I hope to be in that Assembly to scrutinise the work myself, but there is the small matter of an election to fight before then, so I take none of those things for granted. However, I have no doubt that, whatever Members are elected to the next Assembly, in conjunction with the children's sector, there will be a great deal of scrutiny of the delivery of the next children's strategy and the next Programme for Government, particularly its provisions for children.

I will finish by repeating a quotation that I came across when I was doing my research for the Bill. A parent was asked what integrated working meant to her, and she replied:

"Integrated working is not having to repeat myself 30 different times to 30 different officials."

If the legislation can achieve that objective, it will be well worthwhile and will ensure that families do not face the frustrations of silo working and the lack of joined-up government that we have seen in the past.

I thank Members for their contributions and their support. I thank all those who contributed to bringing the Bill this far. I look forward to it receiving the support of the House today and Royal Assent in the near future.

Question put and agreed to. Resolved:

That the Children's Services Co-operation Bill [NIA 44/11/16] do now pass.

Mitchel McLaughlin (Speaker, South Antrim)

The Business Committee has agreed to allow up to one hour and 30 minutes for the debate. The proposer of the motion will have 10 minutes in which to propose and 10 minutes in which to make a winding-up speech. All other Members who are called to speak will have five minutes.

Sandra Overend (UUP, Mid Ulster)

I beg to move

That this Assembly notes that a solution to the post-primary transfer process has not been found; further notes that a one-size-fits-all educational system will not work; believes that it is becoming increasingly unacceptable that, every year, thousands of young people are sitting unregulated transfer tests and that primary schools are placed in the difficult position of mediating between parental demand and Department of Education policies; further believes that the ongoing politicking of the issue does not address the seriousness of the matter; and calls on the Minister of Education to convene talks with all the major stakeholders in order to build consensus and agree a way forward on the issue.

As the Ulster Unionists' education spokesperson, I commend this afternoon's motion on the post-primary transfer process to Members.

On Saturday morning coming, thousands of 10- and 11-year olds will go into 35 grammar schools all over Northern Ireland to sit the first of three common entrance assessment exams, organised not by the Department of Education but by the Association of Quality Education (AQE). The fee is £46. In two weeks' time, on 14 November, the Granada Learning (GL) assessment, sponsored by the Post Primary Transfer Consortium (PPTC) will take place in 35 schools. Some schools are using both the GL and AQE tests, so some 10- and 11-year-olds face four weeks of tests from now until the end of November. Results will be released at the end of January, and those will determine whether the entrants gain places at the grammar school of their choice.

I understand that, last year, 7,285 children were entered for the AQE assessments and 7,255 for the GL assessments. Early indications are that even more have applied this year. How did that state of affairs come about, and why does it seem that so many in this place are quite prepared to accept the status quo?

Politics, like nature, abhors a vacuum. A vacuum in the process to transfer children from primary schools to secondary schools was created when, following the last official 11-plus exam in 2008, nothing was put in its place. The vacuum that was left when the 11-plus was scrapped has been filled by two non-state exam systems. It was inevitable that, in the absence of an ordered and thought-out method of transferring pupils, tests unregulated by the Department of Education would be devised.

The AQE and PPTC deserve credit for the professional way in which they have gone about organising their transfer tests, and I am not aware of many complaints about the fairness of the system. However, it is perhaps typical of this place that there are two rival testing regimes. Whilst the AQE and GL tests are professionally organised and are a response to parental demand for the continuance of academically selective grammar education, what we have now is not what we, as legislators, should want for our children. In the past, the old 11-plus exam received heavy criticism for putting 10- and 11-year-olds under undue pressure, but just look at the situation that we find ourselves in now. Today, in 2015, a system that is much more akin to social selection is being entrenched, whereby better-off families are paying for tuition and coaching for the AQE or GL tests. A common complaint about the 11-plus was that children with better-off parents were coached for the test. If there was an element of truth in that 10 years ago, it is even more true today. It looks like private tuition is becoming a major growth sector in the local economy, and whose fault is that?

Our motion refers to and criticises party politicking, and I do not want to add to that unnecessarily. However, some things need to be said. In general, it is the fault of the Executive for failing to find a solution since 2007. More specifically, it is the fault of successive Sinn Féin Education Ministers for polarising the debate and creating the current stand-off. Sinn Féin, the so-called socialist party, has actually succeeded in privatising the transfer test. Well done, McGuinness, Ruane and O'Dowd.

Leaving politics aside, I ask all Members to ask themselves a simple question. If you went to a grammar school, think of those pupils — you may have been one yourself — who came from less affluent backgrounds and sat and passed the 11-plus, went to a grammar school and excelled academically. Do you think that they would have sat one of the current non-departmental tests? Would they even have had an opportunity to go to the local grammar? Whatever you think about the old 11-plus, everyone had the chance to take it. There are plenty of examples of the social mobility that it provided. The Ulster Unionist Party recognised the limitation of the 11-plus a long time ago. Equally, we recognise the limitations of the new, unofficial 11-pluses. However, at the same time, we recognise that selection is a natural part of life.

Back in 2004, Martin McGuinness said:

"A system which designates any 11-year-old child a failure is fundamentally flawed and must be replaced."

Yet, I do not see any child who does not go to a grammar school as a failure. That is similar to the designation of our children as failures if they do not study A levels or do not go to university. It is a real bugbear of mine every August when we hear on the radio and from advisers after the A-level results have been released. They say, "Don't worry if you didn't do well enough in your A-level exams to get into university. There are other options for you such as studying at an FE college." It is not about saying that one option is better than another. Rather, it is about finding the most suitable form of education for each individual to enable each to find their full potential. The question is how we assess individuals.

Universities select students on the basis of their A-level exam results, sixth-form colleges select their A-level students on the basis of their GCSE results and most, if not all, secondary schools stream their pupils on the basis of objective academic criteria. It is entirely possible to be 100% against the P7 test but 100% for academic selection. The problem at age 18 and 16 is the same as at age 11. We need to look at each individual and decide not how clever they are but how they are clever, and which type of educational system suits their learning style.

The pressure that the new transfer test system puts on primary schools, especially year 6 and 7 teachers, is not fair. It is also not fair for the Minister to authorise warning letters to be sent to some primary schools accusing them of, horror of horrors, helping to prepare their pupils for the tests. Those primary schools and their principals and teachers are under enough pressure from the expectations of parents at the school gate. Again, it is a situation not of their own making; it is one born of political failure.

In our motion, the Ulster Unionist Party is not prescriptive about how the 11-plus impasse will be ended. We believe that academic selection should be part of post-primary transfer, but we also believe that we do not want to see the current situation set in stone. We want a solution based on teacher guidance and continuous assessment at primary level.

There are other aspects to the debate, and questions that demand answers. How do we deal with the attainment gap and persistent underachievement? Is 14 a more appropriate age at which to choose between a more academic or a more technical and vocational route? The point of the debate is that those important issues have effectively been set aside and ignored since the unofficial tests have taken root. It seems to me that the transfer test has become the elephant in the room. It is a difficult issue, but ignoring it will not make it go away. The only conclusion that I can come to is that, at some point after the restoration of devolution in 2007, Sinn Féin and the DUP came to a truce on the issue. Sinn Féin could say that it had abolished the official 11-plus, but the DUP could say that it had salvaged it through the unofficial tests. I say that because the post-primary transfer issue seems to have disappeared off the radar, which cannot be right.

The Minister and his Department need to convene talks with all major stakeholders to build consensus and agree a way forward on the issue. There was an opportunity to do that, and it was happening before 2002. In February 2010, Sir Reg Empey — now Lord Empey — said:

"Education is the most glaring failure of the executive so far ... There is one way to prove that this executive is not dysfunctional and that is to reach a consensus on education."

How right he was, four and a half years ago. The issue has not gone away and will not go away. It must be revisited and resolved. The future of our children demands it.

Peter Weir (DUP, North Down)

I would describe what we are faced with in the motion as a little bit of a mixed bag. Elements of it are very good and others less so. If the main thrust of this is that it would be preferable to have a regulated system, I certainly agree with that. I have no problem with discussions taking place on how that can be best achieved. Similarly, one area that I also find agreement with is the focus of those discussions. Any discussions have to be on a realistic basis that recognises the legal position. I think that, if we are able to reach a single system of testing by way of academic selection, that will be welcomed. However, while regulation is desirable if we can reach consensus on it, which I suspect is where the difficulty may lie, it is wrong to portray the current system of unregulated tests as some form of disaster out there.

When this party helped negotiate the right for academic selection to be put in legislation in 2007, we were told by the then Education Minister, Caitríona Ruane, that a system that was not regulated would be some form of disaster, it would be overwhelmed with court challenges and the whole system would collapse very quickly. However, as has been indicated, since that date, tens of thousands of pupils have gone through the tests; indeed, the indications are, as I think even the proposer indicated, that they are becoming more popular. This year, I think, the AQE figures will go up, and a projected 7,760 will take the tests. So, if we are having discussions, they must be based on the realities of the legal position. That is an important factor.

Secondly, although politics has played a role in this and different approaches have been taken, it is naive to believe that politicking is barring a solution and this could be sorted out quickly if the politicians simply disappeared. The reality is that we have the current system because there is widespread disagreement not just among politicians but among schools, parents and, indeed, the different desires that are there. As a party, we back parental choice, which is why, as a party, we were four-square behind the Dickson plan, which worked very well in that area. We certainly accept the rights of a lot of parents who want to opt out of any form of selection and to send their children to non-selective schools, but we stand four-square behind the rights of schools and parents to have academic selection.

We agree with the sentiment in the motion that one size does not fit all; we have to recognise that diversity. I caution against the suggestion, however well intended, that progress is simply done by way of some form of teacher guidance. Having teachers effectively selecting who goes to a particular school would put teachers in an impossible situation. That was tried out for one year at the beginning of the 1980s but was immediately abandoned by the Government, because it could have led to teachers being pressured, questions of favouritism and parents lobbying for their children to get in. We need a single system of tests.

We support academic selection. Mention has been made of social mobility, which is very important. One of my concerns about the discussion of the transfer process is that, sometimes, it has tended to distract from where the real issues of underachievement and social mobility tend to take place, which are very much in the early years. That is where the main focus has got to lie. If academic selection were made illegal overnight, we would be left with an exacerbation of the problems with social mobility. We would have a situation such as has developed in England, with schools based purely on the ability to pay — a system of public schools where any opportunity for a child from a lower socio-economic background to progress well in their education would effectively be removed. We would exacerbate the problems of social mobility. That is not to say that there are not problems with social mobility that we need to tackle, but we have to make sure that we do not produce solutions that are counterproductive.

I am in favour of any form of discussions that can take place, but they have got to be grounded on reality. From that point of view, solutions that are designed to effectively phase out academic selection or, indeed, to simply persuade those who are in favour of academic selection of the error of their ways will not be productive. I suspect that, with the best will in the world, we are unlikely to reach consensus, but it has got to be grounded on recognition of the legal right to academic selection. From that point of view, therefore, I conclude my remarks.

Christopher Hazzard (Sinn Féin, South Down)

Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. I thank my colleague on the Education Committee Sandra Overend for moving the motion, although I think it is, to use a phrase, a dog's dinner of a motion. It is contradictory in every sentence, but I think, to be fair and respectful, that that has, at times, signalled a lot of Ulster Unionist policy on education reform over the last number of years. I think you are, as your leader said yesterday about marriage equality, on the wrong side of history when it comes to academic selection. The USA, the South, Britain, Canada — all the countries around the world — are lining up to pass legislation for marriage equality; they also made academic selection obsolete many years ago. Why does this part of the world end up being a backwater when it comes to getting on with the times? When it comes to academic selection and the refusal of a rump of schools and boards of governors to move with the times, that is certainly the case.

The motion talks about needing to find a solution: a solution has been found. More than two thirds of our schools no longer work with academic selection; less than a third of our schools do that. A solution has been found. The Member talked about a vacuum being created, because nothing was put in place. That is the whole point: nothing needs to be put in place. The motion also talks about the need to remove politicking and politics from the debate, yet the proposer went on to blame Sinn Féin for the failures in this regard. Again, I repeat: DE does not set admissions criteria; boards of governors set admissions criteria. The proposer said that selection at 11 and 10 is, somehow, the same as selection at 18: that is absolute nonsense. We select at 18 because you are going on to university to do a specific course, so you need specific skills. A one-size-fits-all test at age 10 is not the same. That takes me on to my next point about the motion. The motion talks about a one-size-fits-all model not working, so why would we apply a one-size-fits-all test to our children? It will not work, and it does not work.

Again, this is extremely unfair.

Probably the one part of the motion that I do agree with is that it is entirely unacceptable: children should not be put through the mire of having to do this. My thoughts are with the families and children who will have to do that this weekend. It is totally unnecessary. The proposer talked about parental demand. Again, parental demand is not for the test; it is for access to the good school. I enjoyed a very good education at an elite Catholic grammar school. I do not want to get rid of grammar schools; I want everybody in society to be able to access those schools. If we have academic selection, that is not open to everybody in our community.

The motion talks about talks, but this question must be put to those on the opposite Benches: would you listen? Would you listen to the Churches that are opposed to academic selection? Would you listen to the teaching unions that are opposed to academic selection? Would you listen to the vast majority of political parties that are opposed to academic selection?

Mervyn Storey (DUP, North Antrim)

Will the Member give way?

Christopher Hazzard (Sinn Féin, South Down)

I am sorry; I just want to get through this particular point.

Would they listen to the United Nations, which is opposed to academic selection? Would they listen to the Equality Commission, which is opposed to academic selection? Most importantly, would they listen to children? I have no doubt that if we actually asked our children whether they wanted to do this, they would also want to find a better way. I will give way at that point.

Mervyn Storey (DUP, North Antrim)

I thank the Member for giving way. He is very exercised about listening to the Churches. Does he pick and choose when he listens to the Church? I am very sure that he received correspondence from the Roman Catholic Church yesterday, in relation to a vote that took place in this House, and his party completely and absolutely ignored it. Do not introduce red herrings on this issue when your Minister has failed to convince the Roman Catholic system that it is time to move away from academic selection. Let us be honest; let us have a discussion; and let us stop the red herrings because it will not work.

Christopher Hazzard (Sinn Féin, South Down)

I thank the Member for his interjection. I must see different Catholic schools and boards of governors moving away from academic selection than those that the Member sees. I think that he must be reading a different letter than I am. He talks about red herrings. Let us talk about red herrings. Many of those schools — for example, at least four last year — had more places available than there were applicants, yet they made them sit the test anyway. Why was that? That test was a complete red herring. I think that that gets to the very crux of this: it has become a modelling and marketing campaign for those schools who want to say that they are good schools and that, without this test, you are somehow not a good school.

Let us look at the international evidence. As shown by the latest PISA figures, education systems in Canada, Finland, New Zealand, Australia and Poland are outperforming our schools in terms of 15-year-olds reaching the very top grades in maths, literacy and science. Not a single one of those systems is selective, so they must be doing something right. Evidence that academic selection at age 11 benefits children is totally non-existent. Nobody in this Chamber will be able to point to an academic-selection system anywhere in the world that benefits the children or the system. Again, I challenge anybody here to name one single educational benefit to children of academic selection. I challenge anybody to do that today. All the international evidence and OECD report after report tell us that the best systems worldwide are non-selective and that a school environment with a good social and academic mix benefits all children. This is an evidence-based approach; it is not an ideology. That takes the politics out of it. It is an evidence-based approach. Selection has been made entirely obsolete throughout the world.

Mitchel McLaughlin (Speaker, South Antrim)

The Member's time is almost up.

Christopher Hazzard (Sinn Féin, South Down)

Our primary schools, nursery units, FE colleges, universities and workplaces are of mixed ability. Why should we not make post-primary schools this way, too? Go raibh maith agat.

Seán Rogers (Social Democratic and Labour Party, South Down)

I welcome the opportunity to contribute to the debate as the SDLP's spokesperson on education. It is a very important debate that concerns many families each year as their children prepare for educational life beyond primary school. The motion rightly refers to the fact that we have not yet found solutions to the post-primary transfer problem. Currently, an unregulated system operates that, in some cases, is much more arduous than the previous system. We need to do something about it.

The SDLP, alongside others in this House, attempted to achieve resolution of the problem in 2009-2010, but an agreed solution could not be found. The origins of the chaos and the resultant failure to deal with the issue have led to a "plague on all our houses" attitude and approach to the issue in this House. Leadership and political maturity are required to solve the post-primary transfer issue and prevent worsening outcomes for children here.

Let us look at some of the problems with unregulated tests. Academic selection at age 11 is still in place here and lacks uniformity. As a result, children, parents and teachers are forced to endure months of uncertainty about the future. Testing has become privatised in schools and parents have to pay. Those who can afford it are having their children coached for the exams privately. Who do we blame? They are trying to make the best out of the current system for their children, and it is the system that is the problem. We, as parents, always want to do the best for our children.

In 2015, the Department of Education issued guidance in which unregulated transfer exams were mentioned. While the Department urges a robust test and a move away from academic selection, this amounts to a nagging approach rather than real authority to deal with the problem. The legislative power to provide such an approach does not exist as we have not agreed the way forward.

We know the great strides that can be made if consensus is achieved. We can look to Finland as a sterling example of this. In 1963, they decided to reform their education process and began a period of transition and structural reform, backed up by political will. This meant that, by 2009, they led the world's educational attainment tables. We, too, can strive to make changes for the better but we must agree a way forward to end the current system of unregulated transfer tests.

The current system, including private tests, fees and coaching, puts additional pressure on children and families from socially deprived backgrounds. Many children now have to sit two or more tests, often comprising multiple papers. This also affects our primary schools. We know that parents, when considering which primary school to send their children to, will often look to see whether tutoring is provided for the local school transfer test. Teachers, too, have been placed under contradictory pressures from the Department, which does not want them teaching to a test, and from some parents who want their children to be prepared for and to pass a test because they have the best interests of the child at heart.

Many of the problems in the current education system do not stem from the 11-plus alone. Inequalities are produced at the early stages of the education system and children who fall behind in early years rarely recover the lost ground. In dealing with the post-primary transfer system, we must make sure that our education system is adequately funded and we must support early years education in order to address educational underachievement and prevent the widening inequalities that are aided by the current education system. We must deal with the heavy bureaucracy in the education system, where less than 60% of the education budget actually gets to the classrooms.

The SDLP envisages a system that is focused not just on exams but on a rounded education for our children and on parental choice of integrated, Irish-medium, state or faith-based education through the provision of appropriate access for all pupils. We are committed to achieving social equity in education through excellence. It remains the case that academic selection at age 11 is educationally unsound and socially unjust. A reassessment of patterns of investment in education is required to remove the high levels of inequality in the education system. This is of crucial importance for the development of our economy too, as a well-educated workforce underpins any thriving economy. The stagnation on this issue has gone on far too long and is preventing higher education outcomes, equality of opportunity and our economy from flourishing.

Trevor Lunn (Alliance, Lagan Valley)

I rise without knowing whether we are going to support the motion or not, frankly, because it has been colourfully described as a "mishmash" and a "dog's dinner" —

Maurice (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

You are used to that.

Trevor Lunn (Alliance, Lagan Valley)

They were not my descriptions; they came from your colleagues and from the Benches on this side as well. If I can think of something equally colourful, I will try to bring it in before I finish.

The Alliance Party, quite obviously, opposes selection at age 10 — effectively, it is at age 10. Our debates on education always end up as the same debate. We always come back to this issue and I really do not know what the solution is. The motion:

"calls on the Minister of Education to convene talks with all the major stakeholders in order to build consensus and agree a way forward".

Frankly, you can already see how much consensus there is here today; it just does not exist. We have two sides to the argument that are just poles apart and are liable to remain so.

Members have referred to the tests as they currently stand. Even people who support the tests acknowledge the pressure that they put on children at a young age but they do not appear to be able to query the necessity for them.

The Dickson plan was referred to. It still involves a level of selection, but it is later, at age 14, which would at least be a step in the right direction. Other Members said that, at some stage, there has to be some weeding out, selection or streaming and a final exam that you stand or fall by, and I accept that. However, the notion of testing children, particularly in the present mishmash of a system that has the potential to involve so many tests and two different systems, is absolutely indefensible, yet people continue to defend it as the best way forward.

The motion:

"further notes that a one-size-fits-all educational system will not work".

Mrs Overend's predecessor was Danny Kinahan, who has since been elevated to higher things. I remember the Ulster Unionists tabling a motion to establish a single education system, and Danny frequently tried to explain to us exactly what that meant, but without success because we were all slightly baffled. This one-size-fits-all system will not work — well, OK.

The motion notes that sitting these tests is becoming "increasingly unacceptable" for "thousands of young people" and mentions the pressure, the "unregulated" nature of the tests and the pressure put on schools. That is Alliance thinking, so I will not disagree with that.

The motion continues:

"further believes that the ongoing politicking of the issue does not address the seriousness of the matter".

The ongoing politicking is between the two opposite poles. Those at one pole think that selection tests are essential, and those at the other pole agree with me, as I agree with them, if I may put it that way, that they are unjustifiable. I have to say to the Ulster Unionists that, down the years, they have consistently supported the DUP on whether selection tests should continue. If the motion is a small step in the right direction, and there is some realisation among the Ulster Unionists that — here we go again — they might be on the wrong side of history, I would welcome that, but I am not so sure.

Mr Rogers referred to a previous attempt to find a solution. He may have been referring to the committee that was set up, dare I say it, by me some years ago. It tried to find a way forward, and several MLAs met to discuss the issue. We set up a committee of leading educationalists, who did most of the work for us, but they could not find a solution. At the time, Sinn Féin would not join that project. The current Minister was then the party's education spokesperson, and I think that he had been inclined to join until the party told him the actual way of it.

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

I don't think so.

Danny Kennedy (UUP, Newry and Armagh)

Answer.

Maurice (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

Did a big whip come out?

Trevor Lunn (Alliance, Lagan Valley)

I think that he may have had his knuckles rapped on that occasion.

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

I think you might be on the wrong side of history there.

[Laughter.]

Mitchel McLaughlin (Speaker, South Antrim)

Watch the time.

Trevor Lunn (Alliance, Lagan Valley)

I am finished. I imagine that we will support the motion on the basis of the last couple of lines. The rest of it is, I totally agree, a dog's dinner and mishmash.

Jonathan Craig (DUP, Lagan Valley)

Like others, I find the motion a little confusing. I did not describe it as a mishmash, baffling, bewildering or a dog's dinner, but I find aspects of it extremely confusing. It was good to hear the proposer admit to the fact that it was the DUP that salvaged the transfer principle, and, through the years, whether others believe us to be on the wrong side of history or not is not something that has ever bothered us. It was often said that our founding father was always on the wrong side of history. That never held him back, and I am sure that it will not hold us back either.

Would it be nice to have a regulated testing system? Yes, it probably would. I say that with some scepticism because I am one of those who went through the regulated system, and my daughter went through what is now described as the unregulated system. I have to be fundamentally honest with the House that my experience is that the unregulated system is a thousand times better than the regulated system was. I make no apology for saying that, because I have experienced both, and I know which is the much better experience for the pupil.

Am I content with the unregulated system that we have? I am not content that there are two unregulated systems out there. I have always appealed to those involved in the debate to come up with a single unregulated system. Is it wrong to have an unregulated system? No, I do not believe that it is. I am not one who thinks that government must do everything. I think that a remarkable job has been done in a very stressful situation, and I make no apology for saying that. Is it a disaster? No, it has not turned out to be a disaster. Has the unregulated system gradually been going away, as others said? Are people running away from it? Well, I have bad news for all of you: the numbers taking the unregulated tests have not gone down, and they are not going down. Parental choice is a wonderful thing. As others said, it is parents who make the choice to send their children to the best schools for their educational achievement. If children are academically inclined, that is the right road to send them down.

Trevor Lunn (Alliance, Lagan Valley)

I thank Jonathan for giving way. When he says that it is a matter of parental choice, does he not realise that parents feel that they have no choice but to put their children under that pressure in order for them to get into what he terms the "best schools"? It is parental choice turned on its head.

Jonathan Craig (DUP, Lagan Valley)

I thank the Member for his comments, and I will come to address them. That hits on a fundamental issue with the whole selection process. There are parents out there who think that the only means of getting their children into the best school is to put them through the test. Some other parents make the choice not to put their children through that system and to send them to other extremely good schools, and I have no difficulty with that.

Let us take a look at the alternative, which nobody seems to want to talk about. What is proposed there? It is called the postcode lottery. People living near some of the grammar schools would, I think, be delighted with the postcode lottery, because, automatically, the value of their property would double, treble or whatever. However, the reality is that the only people who would get to those extremely good schools in our society are the economically well-off. The deprived children whom we are talking about, many of whom have passed the academic tests and got into those schools, would no longer have access to them. I have never heard that issue addressed anywhere, and no one has tackled it. We talk about Every School a Good School, and that is a good principle, a good start and a way forward. However, we will still see the postcode lottery, with only the well-heeled getting into what are grammar schools today.

Are there other fundamental issues with the transfer process? Yes, I believe that there are, and they have nothing to do with the selection process. How do secondary schools in general find out what the achievement levels of children are? There is an issue that has not gone away, Minister.

Christopher Hazzard (Sinn Féin, South Down)

Will the Member give way?

Jonathan Craig (DUP, Lagan Valley)

Sorry, but my time is up.

The issue is around how we measure the achievement levels of children going from primary to post-primary.

Pat Sheehan (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. I could go through the motion and pick out the bits that I agree with and the bits that I disagree with, and we could argue back and forth about the rights and wrongs of various parts of it, but, really, where would that get us? To cut through the chaff, it seems to me that the debate has degenerated, certainly among those on the opposite Benches, into one about the rights and wrongs of the regulated test that previously existed versus the new, unregulated test. Let me nail my colours to the mast: both of them are wrong. Academic selection at 10 years of age is wrong. We can rehearse all the arguments that we have debated on many occasions in the Chamber, but let us cut to the chase. As legislators and public representatives, we have a responsibility to ensure that every child and young person is given the best opportunity starting out in life. Imagine if we were to stand up here today and say that there are certain categories of children who should not get the same opportunity as others, or that children of alcohol or drug-addicted parents should not get the same advantages as children who have good parents and are from stable backgrounds. Similarly, if we were to say that children from deprived backgrounds should not get the same opportunities as other children, we would be rightly castigated, but that is, effectively, what is being said here today.

I am not an expert. Look at the figures. Only 12% of children in grammar schools are on free school meals, which is the indicator of deprivation. What do I know about education systems? Like most other people in here, I have worked at various jobs. I am not an expert. I have not done any academic research. I do not have a PhD in comparative analysis of education systems; but, having been on the Education Committee, I have got bits and pieces of research, and people have come in to give evidence, and you absorb whatever you can and you make your assessment. Like everyone else in the Chamber, I will make an assessment on the basis of the evidence that is presented to me. So, what are the experts in the field saying? What does the research say? Let us look at the organisations that oppose academic selection: the Human Rights Commission; the Equality Commission; the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child; the Catholic bishops; the Children's Commissioner; and Professor Tony Gallagher, who is an adviser to the Education Committee and pro-vice-chancellor in Queen's University. We could go on and on, and we could look at the evidence presented in the PISA research that my colleague Chris Hazzard mentioned. The fact is that, if we are serious about educating all our children, academic selection has to go.

We already know what works. Look at St Patrick's High School in Keady. It pioneered and still operates a system of transfer that does not involve academic selection. Last year, 86% of its pupils achieved five GCSEs. In 2015, St Patrick's was voted the best non-selective post-primary school in the UK in the 2015 TES school awards. The judges said that the:

“innovative work and move away from banding, the amazing results achieved and rate of acceleration”

made St Patrick's stand out. St Patrick's fits into the category of Every School a Good School, and there is no reason why that cannot happen in every school. There is no reason why we should not take a holistic approach to education, from early intervention right through to continual professional development of teachers, so that teachers are taught and they learn how to teach children of all abilities. All the best systems of education in the world do that. If you go to Finland, Canada, Australia and New Zealand, you will see that they all operate non-selective systems. I oppose the motion.

Mitchel McLaughlin (Speaker, South Antrim)

The Business Committee has agreed to meet at 1.00 pm. I propose, therefore, by leave of the Assembly, to suspend the sitting until 2.00 pm. The first item of business when we return will be Question Time.

The debate stood suspended. The sitting was suspended at 12.59 pm.

On resuming (Mr Deputy Speaker [Mr Beggs] in the Chair) —

Oral Answers to Questions — Culture, Arts and Leisure

Alex Easton (DUP, North Down)

1. Mr Easton asked the Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure for an update on the redevelopment of Windsor Park stadium. (AQO 8984/11-16)

Carál Ní Chuilín (Sinn Féin, Belfast North)

I thank the Member for his question. Windsor Park is currently under construction and is progressing well. After receiving approval from the IFA's insurer, the old west stand was demolished and the details of the next steps are being developed between the IFA, its insurer and the project team. To date, it is unknown how much the redevelopment of the entire west stand will impact on the project timeline. However, it is envisaged that, from the point of approval, construction of the new west stand will be completed within 12 months. Excluding the west stand, the remainder of the project is scheduled to be completed by January 2016, and I can confirm to the Member that the cost associated with rectifying the issues with the west stand will be a matter for the insurers and that no additional funds will be required by the Department.

A number of qualifiers have been hosted successfully at Windsor Park during the project time, and I am delighted that the team has been able to qualify for next summer's European Championship in France. I hope that the redevelopment of the stadium can continue to facilitate the team's training and preparation for competitions, and I wish them every success.

Alex Easton (DUP, North Down)

I thank the Minister for her answer. I note that the Minister said that, when work on the west stand starts, it will take about a year. Is there a rough idea of when that project could start?

Carál Ní Chuilín (Sinn Féin, Belfast North)

As I outlined in the primary answer — I am sure that the Member already knows this — the demolition process is well under way. The IFA, to its credit, has done everything that it possibly could, given the circumstances that it was in, which were beyond its and everybody else's control. It is working very closely with Belfast City Council, its insurers and, indeed, with the Department. The main project should be completed by January 2016, and I do not anticipate too many delays thereafter.

Daithí McKay (Sinn Féin, North Antrim)

Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. Whilst we are on the subject of sports grounds, could the Minister indicate if she would be supportive of clubs and grounds benefiting from rates relief, which is a measure that the IFA was supportive of?

Carál Ní Chuilín (Sinn Féin, Belfast North)

The short answer is yes. The Member brought forward a private Member's Bill on rates relief for amateur sports clubs, and it is regrettable that that did not realise full support. However, I remain supportive of the extension of rates relief to sports clubs, particularly where the application of financial savings by clubs can benefit from release and particularly when it is targeted at the development of the sport and, indeed, the people who participate in the sport, particularly when we are all trying to achieve full inclusion. The continued absence of the rates relief is regrettable, but I will certainly do my best to work with the clubs to make sure that they have full advantage.

Robin Swann (UUP, North Antrim)

I add my support to the Member for North Antrim for his attempt to get relief for sports clubs, especially as it would have brought in the pigeon clubs as well. The Minister mentioned the status of the insurance claim for Windsor. Can she give us an update as to where that stands?

Carál Ní Chuilín (Sinn Féin, Belfast North)

Belfast City Council and the IFA are working through those issues. As I said to Alex Easton, I am confident that they are all taking a very pragmatic can-do approach to getting the issue resolved. I have no further details other than that. From what I am led to believe, the insurers are accepting full responsibility. The full redevelopment of Windsor Park should be completed by January 2016, and I anticipate that work should properly commence on the west stand very soon. Following the Member's query, I will ask for an update, and I am happy to furnish him with those details in writing.

Cathal Ó hOisín (Sinn Féin, East Londonderry)

2. Mr Ó hOisín asked the Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure for an update on staffing levels and redundancies at Waterways Ireland headquarters in Enniskillen. (AQO 8985/11-16)

Carál Ní Chuilín (Sinn Féin, Belfast North)

I thank the Member for his question. Waterways Ireland employs 69 staff at its headquarters in Enniskillen: 60 permanent employees, two fixed-term contracts, two agency staff, four student placements, and one graduate internship. Waterways Ireland has not made any redundancies at its headquarters.

Cathal Ó hOisín (Sinn Féin, East Londonderry)

Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as ucht an fhreagra sin. Is Waterways Ireland considering redundancies due to fluctuations in the value of the euro and pensions pressures?

Carál Ní Chuilín (Sinn Féin, Belfast North)

I have not received any indication that Waterways Ireland — or, for that matter, Foras na Gaeilge — is considering redundancies, although, hopefully, we will have a sectoral meeting on Friday.

There have been concerns about what impact fluctuations in the euro will have on pensions and pressures. All pension liabilities are covered 100% by the sponsoring bodies. Waterways Ireland has prioritised work so that urgent repairs and maintenance always take priority, particularly to ensure accessibility of navigations.

If there are any other details, I will happily furnish the Member with them in writing.

David McIlveen (DUP, North Antrim)

3. Mr D McIlveen asked the Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure what support her Department will provide to the Northern Ireland football team following their qualification for the European Championships 2016. (AQO 8986/11-16)

Carál Ní Chuilín (Sinn Féin, Belfast North)

I thank the Member for his question. I congratulate the Northern Ireland team, staff and IFA on securing its place at the 2016 European Championship finals in France. For the team to qualify automatically is a fantastic achievement but also to top the group is testament to the incredible commitment of the manager Michael O'Neill and the whole squad.

Preparation for the finals is, as the Member will know, primarily the responsibility of the IFA, which has the knowledge and expertise required to ensure that the team has the right support. The Sports Institute, funded by DCAL and Sport NI, has and will continue to provide support to the team, manager and staff as they prepare for competitions.

My Department will continue to support the IFA through funding the project and the redevelopment of Windsor Park. That involves investment of approximately £28 million for the redevelopment of Windsor and a further investment of approximately £2·7 million towards the redevelopment of the Olympia Leisure Centre. The stadium will provide a world-class facility for the team as part of its preparations for the tournament.

David McIlveen (DUP, North Antrim)

I thank the Minister for her answer and welcome and share her congratulations for the Northern Ireland football team.

The Minister will probably not be aware that I was three years old when Northern Ireland last qualified for a major tournament. I am sure that she would agree with me that the place that Northern Ireland football now finds itself is of epic proportions. Does the Minister feel, though, as we move into this new dispensation of football success that there is a real opportunity for us to grasp the beauty of true Northern Ireland identity? Will the Minister's Department be encouraging all our community to rally around the identity of being uniquely and wonderfully from Northern Ireland?

Carál Ní Chuilín (Sinn Féin, Belfast North)

It will come as no surprise to the Member that while I wish the Northern Ireland team, and, indeed, the IFA, all success — and I do genuinely — I do not identify myself as Northern Irish in the same way as the Member does. However, the IFA has done brilliant and exemplary work in trying to make sure that football is accessible to all. It will continue to do that.

I do not believe that we should shoehorn people into supporting teams because some people support certain teams and others support other teams. We need to create the conditions whereby people can, of their own will, give support to whomever they want. For those who decide not to, that is their choice as well.

Even from when you were a mere boy in 1986, things have changed considerably. The atmosphere has changed considerably since then, but, despite all the work that they have done, and they have done great work, we have still some way to go.

Pat Sheehan (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as ucht a freagra. What assistance has the Minister's Department given the IFA to develop soccer at grass-roots level?

Carál Ní Chuilín (Sinn Féin, Belfast North)

I am still working very closely with the IFA and, indeed, the other two biggest governing bodies, the Ulster Council and Ulster Rugby. My Department has provided £4·5 million of funding for the three governing bodies and is particularly looking at accessibility for grass-roots groups and grass-roots sports and at enabling the three bodies to look not only at the whole area of sport but at healthy lifestyles, mental health, breaking down barriers, increasing access and increasing employment. When the work is completed by the three governing bodies next year, it will set them in good stead to compete for additional funding for the years ahead. The work that they have done at grass-roots level has been exemplary.

Fearghal McKinney (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast South)

4. Mr McKinney asked the Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure what assessment has been made of the impact on employment of funding cuts by her Department. (AQO 8987/11-16)

Basil McCrea (NI21, Lagan Valley)

6. Mr B McCrea asked the Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure what evaluation was given to the impact of recent in-year budget cuts to the Arts Council. (AQO 8989/11-16)

Carál Ní Chuilín (Sinn Féin, Belfast North)

With your permission, Mr Deputy Speaker, I will take questions 4 and 6 together. I thank the Members for their questions.

This has been a difficult Budget, with pressures directly resulting from cuts to our block grant by the British Government. I have had to redeploy a budget in DCAL to deal with the inescapable pressures that have emerged through the year and to focus on departmental priorities. That has meant reductions in some areas but increased budgets in others. The British Government have cut our block grant and have signalled that they are going to do so again in the future. As such, the budget allocations are going to become more regressive over the years.

We are halfway through the year, and many of our arm's-length bodies' (ALBs) costs, such as salaries and buildings costs, are fully committed for the year. In the case of the Arts Council, it is helpful to point out that it received the same percentage of pressure in its reductions as other bodies in DCAL did. Legacy work now planned for the north-west will continue and have a strong artistic and cultural component. I hope that I will have the opportunity to try to offset some of the worst costs through future monitoring rounds.

Fearghal McKinney (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast South)

The Minister will be aware of the spirited protest outside the Assembly today. That spirit perhaps belies the deep anger that is felt by those protesters, many of whom are in the Chamber this afternoon. They have expressed themselves and are alarmed and disturbed at the in-year cuts, resulting as they have in loss of employment, insecurity and the taking away from vital programmes that are instrumental in the community. Will the Minister now reaffirm her commitment to the arts and reaffirm that she will restore those moneys to the Arts Council?

Carál Ní Chuilín (Sinn Féin, Belfast North)

First, it is good to see the arts and the artists in the Public Gallery. It is also good to see from the badges being worn that there is now cross-party support for the arts, because, prior to that, there was not. It is also good to see that pressure is now being brought to bear about how valuable the arts are. In the absence of any financial security coming from our Executive, and in the absence of the security that we, as an Executive, need around the moneys that we have had taken from our block grant in July 2011, with more of the same having been earmarked in July of this year, I cannot and will not give a guarantee — I believe that to do so would be reckless — that I will be able to restore the budget that I desperately want to restore. I will certainly be a champion of the arts. I will argue for additional money for the arts, and I look forward to full party support for that argument on the Executive.

Basil McCrea (NI21, Lagan Valley)

Minister, you will be aware that there are hundreds of people outside who want to talk to you about the arts. I listened carefully to your answer. Would it be possible for you to meet those representatives of the arts after Question Time? They promise that it will not be in any way contentious. They do not want it to be a political football, but they would like to present you with their open letter to explain their situation. Of course, you could then explain the situation to them directly.

Carál Ní Chuilín (Sinn Féin, Belfast North)

Thank you, Basil, for your question and your appeal. I am happy to meet them. I will never avoid any groups or any protest. I fully support people's right to protest. In fact, many of us came here through protest movements of one sort or other. I am happy to meet a small group of representatives. Straight after Question Time, I am meeting a group of BBC people who are lobbying me about the renewal of the BBC charter, but I will take five minutes to take the letter and hear what people have to say. I have already accepted invitations from arts and creative companies to go to Derry, particularly around receiving a delegation. I am happy to do that. I thank the Member for the tone with which he raised the issue.

Nelson McCausland (DUP, Belfast North)

How can the Minister justify imposing in-year cuts on funding that has been committed to arts organisations and then siphon off the money to projects with no open application process and no transparency? Is that good practice?

Carál Ní Chuilín (Sinn Féin, Belfast North)

You have a brass neck, given your history around Red Sky and others. You have an absolute brass neck. First of all —

[Interruption.]

Roy Beggs (UUP, East Antrim)

Order.

Carál Ní Chuilín (Sinn Féin, Belfast North)

First of all, on transparency, I did not meet anybody in rooms and conjure up dirty deals. The whole process was done in an open and transparent way, with a business case. It was not siphoning off. All other ALBs received a reduction as a result of Tory cuts, but you have a complete brass neck. I am glad to see that you are taking a reddener.

Roy Beggs (UUP, East Antrim)

I ask everyone to refer their questions and answers through the Speaker's Chair, please.

Oliver McMullan (Sinn Féin, East Antrim)

Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. I thank the Minister for her answers to date. Will she outline some of the inescapable pressures in her Department?

Carál Ní Chuilín (Sinn Féin, Belfast North)

There are many inescapable pressures; I am sure that the Member will appreciate that I cannot go through them all. However, as with other Members who have asked for details, I am happy to complete what I do not cover here in writing. There is over £430,000 to meet health and safety requirements to comply with statutory obligations. There is £300,000 towards our Together: Building a United Community (T:BUC) programme, which is required to ensure that the positive outcomes from the pilot scheme are maximised. Also, looking at our City of Culture legacy, there is £100,000 towards commitments made for the creative industries. In addition, there is £150,000 for time-bound Executive funding, which has now expired, to the IFA, the GAA and rugby. I have also looked at strengthening the stadia team's programme to ensure that the Programme for Government commitments to regional stadiums are met.

Sandra Overend (UUP, Mid Ulster)

Has the Minister requested that her arm's-length bodies prepare revised corporate plans as a result of the funding cuts to their budgets? If so, when will they become available?

Carál Ní Chuilín (Sinn Féin, Belfast North)

We have entered into a discussion with all the ALBs. The revisions to not so much their corporate plans but their financial plans and projections are being revised as we speak. I am still hopeful that we may have a monitoring round, so I imagine what the fluctuation will be between the projections if it happens or of it does not. Those discussions are certainly being had, and preparations are being made for the same.

Anna Lo (Alliance, Belfast South)

Does the Minister use a scoring matrix or any other methodology when determining the spending cuts or increases for arts organisations? If so, will she publish it?

Carál Ní Chuilín (Sinn Féin, Belfast North)

The processes of the scoring matrix and the allocations for the Arts Council are done by the Arts Council. When I make priorities and interventions in my Department, the criteria that I use are around promoting equality, tackling poverty and promoting social inclusion, and particularly looking at people who live and work in deprived in areas and are the furthest removed from services. That has been open and transparent. It is in my business plan and the revised business plan. I have made that a priority for every aspect of all my ALBs and my work in the Department.

Gordon Lyons (DUP, East Antrim)

5. Mr Lyons asked the Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure for an update on the funding for the subregional development of football stadia. (AQO 8988/11-16)

Carál Ní Chuilín (Sinn Féin, Belfast North)

I thank the Member for his question. My Department is currently in the process of developing the subregional programme for soccer. Plans for a formal public consultation with key stakeholders are well under way, with a 12-week consultation to commence at the end of November. The forthcoming consultation will give all the stakeholders the opportunity to shape the final programme. Once the stakeholder consultation exercise is completed and the final programme has been agreed, my officials will be in a position to offer advice to all potential applicants. It is envisaged that, following the 12-week consultation, the subregional programme will be formally launched and open for applications in early 2016, but the long-awaited consultation will happen at the end of this month.

Gordon Lyons (DUP, East Antrim)

I thank the Minister for her answer. It is good to hear that the consultation will take place soon. There are an awful lot of clubs, right across Northern Ireland, that are very anxious to hear information about this and it has not been forthcoming until now, so I thank the Minister for her clarification. Perhaps she can give an indication of when, she thinks, the first pots of money will be made available to clubs. Some clubs are very advanced in their plans and in seeking planning permission. They are eager to get going. When can the money be drawn down?

Carál Ní Chuilín (Sinn Féin, Belfast North)

Certainly, clubs should be able to access and draw down money in spring; I am talking about March or April. The consultation will last for 12 weeks, and there will be feedback on how to prepare and respond to the applications. I appreciate that some clubs have been preparing for this opportunity for years. I also appreciate that some of the smaller clubs have not had the same advantage as some of the bigger ones, and it is important that we try to make sure that everybody has a fair opportunity of getting access to the funds. I anticipate that even the remainder of the money for the subregional soccer programme will not cover all the needs. I am looking at how, in the next mandate and the next CSR, those other needs can be met, not just for soccer but for Gaelic, rugby and other governing bodies.

Rosaleen McCorley (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as a cuid freagraí go dtí seo. An dtig liom iarraidh ar an Aire, an dtig léi cur síos a thabhairt ar cé atá ag glacadh an phríomhfhreagracht as an chlár fhoréigiúnach le haghaidh sacair? Will the Minister comment or give an outline on who is taking the lead responsibility for the subregional programme for soccer?

Carál Ní Chuilín (Sinn Féin, Belfast North)

I thank the Member for her question. I am taking lead responsibility for the development and delivery of the subregional programme, and that includes the allocation of funding. I am working closely and in conjunction with the IFA, but I am taking lead responsibility.

Andy Allen (UUP, Belfast East)

7. Mr Allen asked the Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure when she expects to see a completed planning application for a new Casement Park stadium. (AQO 8990/11-16)

Carál Ní Chuilín (Sinn Féin, Belfast North)

I thank the Member for his question. The GAA is continuing to develop the design, ensuring that the recommendations of the judicial review are wholly incorporated into the planning application. A key aspect of the process is ensuring that the GAA involves the community throughout the process to ensure a high level of engagement with all stakeholders. It will be for the GAA to decide on when it is in a position to submit its planning application. I am optimistic that that will be done very early next year. The Department will continue to offer support to the GAA with the process, ensuring that the recommendations of the recent project assessment review (PAR) report are fully implemented. I am delighted to announce the appointment of Danny McSorley as the newly appointed chair of the safety technical group (STG). The input of the STG will be pivotal in the progression of the project, and I look forward to the group providing the specialist advice required to bring the project to a successful conclusion and make Casement Park a reality.

Andy Allen (UUP, Belfast East)

I thank the Minister for her answers thus far. In the light of the footprint of Casement Park being totally unsuitable for a modern 38,000-seat stadium and bearing it in mind that a smaller stadium would cost considerably less, is there an opportunity for the savings to be redeployed to the arts sector, which is under such severe financial pressure at this time due to in-year cuts?

Carál Ní Chuilín (Sinn Féin, Belfast North)

I thank the Member for his question. One is a capital programme; the other is resource. I really hope that the Member is not suggesting that Ravenhill and Windsor Park can be redeveloped but the money for Gaelic games can be given away. That will not happen, certainly not on my watch. I fully support the need for additional money for the arts sector and will argue for it, but I do not think that anybody from the arts sector or anywhere else would even hint or suggest that money should be taken from Gaelic games and given somewhere else.

The judicial review did not rule on the 38,000 capacity. Some residents have said that they believe that the capacity needs to be sorted out; I believe that that will be dealt with. It should be discussed between the Ulster Council of the GAA and those residents. Certainly, as to any notion, hint or suggestion that money for Casement Park or Gaelic games will be given elsewhere, it is not going to happen.

Gordon Dunne (DUP, North Down)

In relation to Casement Park, does the Minister recognise that the management of the project has been a disaster and that the capacity of 38,000 is totally unsuitable for the area in which it is proposed? Will she assure us that there will be open consultation with the local residents on this application? That did not happen last time, and the matter ended up in court.

Roy Beggs (UUP, East Antrim)

The Member has asked his question. I call the Minister.

Carál Ní Chuilín (Sinn Féin, Belfast North)

First, I am aware that you are working with some of the residents, particularly the Mooreland and Owenvarragh Residents Association (MORA) in west Belfast.

Gordon Dunne (DUP, North Down)

I am a democrat.

Carál Ní Chuilín (Sinn Féin, Belfast North)

Absolutely. That is what residents do. It is an open and democratic process, and I believe that the next consultation will also be an open and democratic process. You have heard hours and hours of evidence. Previously, at Championships, there have been more than 38,000. There have been up to 33,000 and, prior to that, there have been far more people than that at games. It is up to the Ulster Council to provide its strategic vision for Casement Park. If residents truly believe that there needs to be a reduction, that has to be done in consultation with the Ulster Council. I believe that those discussions have already started and that there will be a good resolution. Any notion that the project will be scaled back so that it is not viable is a bit ridiculous. I hope that the Member is not suggesting that.

Michaela Boyle (Sinn Féin, West Tyrone)

How will the Minister ensure that the 20 PAR recommendations are fully implemented in the project?

Carál Ní Chuilín (Sinn Féin, Belfast North)

I thank the Member for her question. I am determined to ensure the implementation of the recommendations, and some have already been implemented. The PAR implementation plan allocates each of the recommendations to a specific owner. In my case, I have a new SRO in the Department working on that full-time. As the Member may have heard in my response to the main question, I have announced that we have a new independent chair of the safety technical group. The Ulster Council has fully accepted the implementation and recommendations of the PAR report. We can all use that report to help us to work towards the future, particularly in delivering Casement Park.

Roy Beggs (UUP, East Antrim)

Declan McAleer is not in his place.

Pat Ramsey (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

9. Mr Ramsey asked the Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure how her Department encourages growth in the creative industries sector. (AQO 8992/11-16)

Carál Ní Chuilín (Sinn Féin, Belfast North)

I thank the Member for his question. DCAL has the lead in government for the development of the creative industries and has achieved a great deal to aid this fast-growing sector across the North. The creative industries innovation fund operated from 2009 to 2015, supporting 359 projects with a total investment exceeding £5·6 million. As part of a three-year contract to June 2016, DCAL has agreed to provide £330,000 of funding to Generator NI, which is responsible for delivering the music strategy’s target of increasing employment in the industry by 72 new jobs and increasing the gross value added (GVA) by a £1·2 million annual contribution to the economy by June 2016. DCAL is also providing an additional £100,000 resource in 2015-16 for creative industries development.

Pat Ramsey (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

I thank the Minister for her response. Clearly, many people across Northern Ireland look to the creative industries and what they can provide for the future. I know that the Committee has had a huge interest in that. Will the Minister outline the investment made by the Department or the Executive in the creative industries over the past four years?

Carál Ní Chuilín (Sinn Féin, Belfast North)

I do not have those figures to hand, but I am happy to write to the Member. The group that we convened recently has representatives of many of the Departments, and all the Ministers came. Minister Farry was there, and there were representatives from DETI and the Department of Education. Ministers and senior officials have been working on this, and it is important that there is a cross-departmental approach. The Member can see the value of creative industries investment in his city and what that has done. We need to have that right across and, indeed, try to link up opportunities right across the island. I am not being political, but, when looking at investment, particularly in this economy, we should try to do so to the advantage of everybody. We have provided good investment thus far, but I hope to increase that or at least leave a good footprint for the CSR in the next mandate.

Roy Beggs (UUP, East Antrim)

That is the end of listed questions. We move on to topical questions.

David McNarry (UKIP, Strangford)

T1. Mr McNarry asked the Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure what lessons she has learned from the bad practices exposed in the recent report on the Northern Ireland Events Company and whether she can assure the House that no such practices are evident today anywhere else in her Department. (AQT 3061/11-16)

Carál Ní Chuilín (Sinn Féin, Belfast North)

I thank the Member for his question. He was a longstanding member of the CAL Committee so he is probably far more familiar with this than I am. I came into this mandate when the Events Company was transferred from DCAL to DETI. There are certainly many lessons to be learned, but I want to assure the Member as fully as possible that our Department has learned lessons from what happened at the Events Company. Indeed, I would expect all Departments to read the report and learn the lessons from it.

David McNarry (UKIP, Strangford)

I thank the Minister for her frank answer. I accept her assurances and am gratified by them. Rather than cause her any anxieties, has she been made aware of any events funded directly or indirectly by her Department at which admittance money has not been fully accounted for due to the methodology in taking cash on entry?

Carál Ní Chuilín (Sinn Féin, Belfast North)

I am certainly not aware of any events or detail in the Member's question. Just to be sure — to be sure, to be sure — I will take the Member's question back to my officials and I will furnish him with those details in writing. I will assure the Member as much as I possibly can. The nonsense that occurred at the Events Company was in blazing lights, but I believe that all senior officials in most Departments will have read the report and gone back to do a quick checklist in their Department.

Christopher Hazzard (Sinn Féin, South Down)

T2. Mr Hazzard asked the Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure when the consultation on the arts and culture strategy that she intends to introduce will happen. (AQT 3062/11-16)

Carál Ní Chuilín (Sinn Féin, Belfast North)

I anticipate launching the formal consultation on a strategy for culture and arts within three weeks. There has never been such a strategy in the Department before. We have the Sport Matters strategy, which is interdepartmental, has been funded and is for 10 years. It amazed me that there has not been an arts and culture strategy in the Department before. I will launch it no later than three weeks from now.

Christopher Hazzard (Sinn Féin, South Down)

Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. I thank the Minister for her answer. How will she ensure that the strategy is properly resourced and that there is widespread political, if not public, support for the initiatives?

Carál Ní Chuilín (Sinn Féin, Belfast North)

Going by some of the supportive comments today from Members in most parties, I hope that all-party support will flourish and is sustained for this very important strategy. It is vital that we have a robust, resourced strategy for arts and culture for at least 10 years because we need to ensure that there is full-party support, right across the Executive, for the future of culture and arts. It is really important that, going into the next mandate, we have a robust and well-resourced strategy not only to help whoever the new Minister is but to give some security to the sector.

Adrian McQuillan (DUP, East Londonderry)

T3. Mr McQuillan asked the Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure how she believes the legacy of Londonderry being the 2013 UK City of Culture has filtered down to the grass-roots communities in East Londonderry. (AQT 3063/11-16)

Carál Ní Chuilín (Sinn Féin, Belfast North)

I have been in the Member's constituency. We were able to make a capital investment there in partnership with Coleraine. There is also the Stendhal Festival in Limavady. I have met many groups from right across the city of Derry and the neighbouring counties, towns and villages, even from some areas that are now classified as part of Mid-Ulster, although they are still part of the natural east and south Derry hinterland. It is important that support for the grass-roots continues. I make no apologies for supporting not only the City of Culture but the legacy programme.

Adrian McQuillan (DUP, East Londonderry)

I do not want the Minister to apologise for supporting the grass-roots and legacy programme. I encourage more but what I want to see is the support filtering down to the lowest level of the grass-roots community. I am not really seeing that happen at the minute, Minister.

Carál Ní Chuilín (Sinn Féin, Belfast North)

I am happy to meet the Member and get some views on how he thinks that could happen. The groups that I have dealt with right across different sectors in Belfast tell me that they are targeting support to people who are most deprived, marginalised and excluded, and most of them are. For some, there was a gap. We need to hear what those gaps are and see how we can try to fill them. I am open to hearing what the Member has to suggest.

Rosaleen McCorley (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

T4. Ms McCorley asked the Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure to comment on the rationale for appointing Féile an Phobail as lead partner in the cultural programme for the World Police and Fire Games 2013. (AQT 3064/11-16)

Carál Ní Chuilín (Sinn Féin, Belfast North)

Féile an Phobail lobbied me, as it did the Tourist Board, DETI and Belfast City Council. It also made a presentation to the World Police and Fire Games board on the need for a cultural programme, given that we had a very successful programme in the run-up to the 2012 Olympic and Paralympic Games. The Olympics were primarily an arts spectacle with sports added in. Féile an Phobail was the lead partner, as designated by the groups, and remains the lead partner in that cultural programme. That is set to continue. Those are the origins of the lobby.

Rosaleen McCorley (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

Go raibh maith agat. Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as an fhreagra sin. Will the Minister comment on the importance of the cross-community aspect to the roll-out of the programme of events for the 2013 games?

Carál Ní Chuilín (Sinn Féin, Belfast North)

There is a cross-community element to it. I do not underestimate how difficult it has been for people to sustain that over the years, particularly for groups working in communities that need support, including political support, to do so. Groups in the Shankill and in east and south Belfast have worked well with Féile an Phobail and with other members of the cultural partnership, and I imagine that that will and should endure well beyond the lifetime of this mandate.

Paula Bradley (DUP, Belfast North)

T5. Ms P Bradley asked the Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure to explain her rationale for cutting the musical instruments for bands funding programme and to outline how that decision is affecting the community. (AQT 3065/11-16)

Carál Ní Chuilín (Sinn Féin, Belfast North)

The rationale is purely financial. I anticipate that, if the financial situation changed, we could reinstate that programme. That is not the fault of the Executive at all, as these cuts came from the Tory Government. There are programmes that the Arts Council simply did not have the money to continue, and that is one of them.

Paula Bradley (DUP, Belfast North)

I thank the Minister for her answer. She will be aware that we have in and around 600 bands, which are made up of around 20,000 people who are learning to play musical instruments. Some of those are in our area, some are in deprived areas and some are in the rural community. It has been a great resource for progression: some of those people make professional careers from music. Will the Minister reinforce once again that this will be looked at in future? These are not just marching bands: these are future musicians from Northern Ireland.

Carál Ní Chuilín (Sinn Féin, Belfast North)

I am happy to support everything that the Minister — not yet, Paula — the Member has said . I have met the bands' forum and I have met bands' forums from across all political backgrounds and none. I have met people who are involved in bands and I have met groups who use musical instruments as a method for therapeutic development to help people to cope with trauma and mental health problems. I have even met people who are returning from illnesses — for example, viruses, strokes and the rest — who are recovering through the arts and through musical instruments. I appreciate the value that music brings. That is one programme, and the Arts Council has had to make difficult decisions on a few of them, given the budget that it has been handed and given the cuts that we face from the British Government.

Roy Beggs (UUP, East Antrim)

David McIlveen is not in his place.

Claire Sugden (Independent, East Londonderry)

T7. Ms Sugden asked the Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure, in anticipation of a resolution from the current talks, to state her intended bids in a possible monitoring round. (AQT 3067/11-16)

Carál Ní Chuilín (Sinn Féin, Belfast North)

I love the Member's optimism and hope that we can all share it. The monitoring round that I had in June still stands; if anything, aspects have been added to it. I will be proactive in convincing all colleagues that we need to try to plug the gaps that others have created in our Budget. If we had a monitoring round, I would hope not only to pursue the bids that I was bringing forward in June but to address the new and emerging pressures that have come to me since then.

Claire Sugden (Independent, East Londonderry)

For the benefit of the House, will the Minister reiterate her priorities from the June monitoring round and tell us about any that have come up since?

Carál Ní Chuilín (Sinn Féin, Belfast North)

The Member may have heard some of the priorities, particularly my statutory obligations around health and safety for some of the ALBs. I have to meet those health and safety requirements to make sure that I fulfil my statutory duty. There are gaps there for the Arts Council, the Sports Council and Libraries. There are also gaps for Museums, as well as in commitments that I have made to the three sports governing bodies on the work that they have been doing with grass-roots groups. The governing bodies have taken groups, particularly from communities that face difficult challenges, and supported them. It is important that they have some sort of financial security in order to continue that work.

Roy Beggs (UUP, East Antrim)

The Member listed to ask question 8 has withdrawn his name. Raymond McCartney is not in his place. Alastair Ross is not in his place. The next period for questions does not begin until 2.45 pm, so I suggest that the House take its ease until then.

Oral Answers to Questions — Education

Roy Beggs (UUP, East Antrim)

Listed questions 9 and 13 have been withdrawn.

Pat Ramsey (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

1. Mr Ramsey asked the Minister of Education whether shortfalls in funding have impacted on the Delivering Social Change improving literacy and numeracy signature programme. (AQO 8999/11-16)

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

The Delivering Social Change (DSC) programme was announced by the Office of the First Minister and deputy First Minister in October 2012. The programme was only made possible by central funding provided by OFMDFM. In the absence of central funding, I had to end the OFMDFM programme and the DE expansion programme at the end of August 2015. In addition, some participating schools have not had the benefit of the additional teaching resource for a full two years or until March 2016, whichever was sooner.

The expenditure for the programme was incurred by the Education Authority in respect of the payment of teachers’ salaries and administration costs up to the end of August 2015, which is when their employment ceased. Work is ongoing to finalise the accounts for the programme up to the end of August 2015. The funding already provided by OFMDFM and my Department appears to be sufficient to cover the costs incurred. My commitment to the programme is such that I have set aside an additional £200,000 to ensure that the best practice and learning developed and identified during the programme can be disseminated across all schools and create a lasting legacy for the Delivering Social Change programme.

Pat Ramsey (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

I thank the Minister for his response. I have heard you in the media on the issue, but it is still concerns many parents that in the early years their children are not getting the appropriate, holistic and individually tailored plans that are necessary for a child's progression. Can you outline the steps the Department is taking to bring forward a more strategic approach to ensure that a child's development at an early stage is being progressed consistently?

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

I do not necessarily accept that many children are not getting the appropriate interventions at early years. In any system as expansive as the Department of Education's, there will be different degrees of provision within the schools. My job as Minister, and the role of the Department of Education, is to ensure that all provision is brought up to the highest level possible. We have tailored interventions in place. Our curriculum is tailored to ensure that education is delivered at early years — age-appropriate and individual-appropriate — to pupils to ensure and support them through their development of education from the earliest years possible.

The Delivering Social Change programme was targeted at our primary schools and post-primary schools, and, over its two years, it was very effective, but, when budgets are reduced, you have decisions to make. OFMDFM had its to make, and I had mine to make. I could have diverted funds away from schools to continue the Delivering Social Change programme, but I would have been paying off teachers to bring in other teachers, and I did not think that that made sense at this time. The lessons from the DSC programme are being learned and disseminated, and they will be shared across our education establishment to ensure that everyone learns the best practice from them.

Maeve McLaughlin (Sinn Féin, Foyle)

Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. I thank the Minister for his answer. I note that he referred to the lessons learned from Delivering Social Change. Will he outline what the Department is going to do to harness that learning to benefit schools across the North?

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

As I outlined, I have set aside £200,000 to carry out that work this year. In the most successful schools, that learning has been shared across the curriculum, and many principals are trying to mainstream the approaches learned under the DSC programme. The legacy programme will be delivered during the 2015-16 academic year. That programme aims to prepare and collate resources and best classroom practice identified by Education Authority officers during the programme; provide information for school principals on successful approaches to tackling underachievement; provide continuous professional development (CPD) sessions on English and/or numeracy interventions for our English and maths coordinators and teachers in every school; and prepare and present case studies of best practice identified by ETI and the evaluation process, along with a number of other measures. The lessons learned from DSC will definitely not be lost to our system. They will be built-in and tailored to our schools as we move forward.

Jo-Anne Dobson (UUP, Upper Bann)

What assessment has been made of the worth of the signature projects with regard to literacy and numeracy? How can the Minister address underachievement when the first thing to be cut is that programme?

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

We have to recognise that our education system is there to address underachievement. It should not be an add-on, and it most certainly should not be a separate programme or scheme that you come up with. The core purpose of education is to educate to the individual; to meet the needs of the individual child and to nurture the child's development and learning at every stage of their education. That is the core principle. Once you get into a philosophy, idea or mindset that you need yet another programme to tackle underachievement, you are going down the wrong road and in the wrong direction. It has to be the very core of education.

The Education and Training Inspectorate (ETI) is evaluating the numeracy and literacy programme and will continue to evaluate and disseminate best practice throughout our schools, along with the Education Authority.

Maurice (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

Does the Minister accept that there is some evidence — in my opinion, it is substantial evidence — that there is underachievement among young Protestant boys? Does he have any measures or has he taken cognisance of that? How does he intend to address that?

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

Of course there is evidence that proves — it does not suggest; it proves — that there is educational underachievement in young Protestant boys. As I said in response to the previous questioner, our education system has to be targeted at the needs of the individual and to be set in a way that nurtures and develops the educational well-being and development of every individual child.

Do we need a separate strategy for Protestant working-class boys, solely for education? No. We need a combined strategy for working-class communities, Protestant and Catholic. The figures in the Catholic community are not impressive either. Somewhere in the region of 457 working-class Protestant boys left school without proper qualifications in 2014-15. In the same year, 909 Catholic working-class boys left education without proper qualifications.

We need to target resources to schools in socially deprived areas. I have done that, and that was opposed by the Members opposite. We need to ensure that the Executive, as a whole, are targeting resources to socially deprived areas to build up community confidence and infrastructure, and they are doing that. As is the case with health, you will find that social deprivation breeds educational inequalities. We need to remove inequalities in society to ensure that education prospers.

I believe that we have the policies in place to tackle educational underachievement, because that is at the very heart of our education system.

Leslie Cree (UUP, North Down)

2. Mr Cree asked the Minister of Education for his assessment of transfer arrangements for year 7 pupils to post-primary schools. (AQO 9000/11-16)

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

For the September 2015 entry, over 21,000 pupils transferred from primary to post-primary schools. By the end of the process in May, 99·4% of pupils were placed in a school of their choice, with 86·7% being admitted to their first-preference school.

The Department has published guidance setting out a framework for the transfer process. That guidance has been in place since 2010, which was the first year that children were not subjected to a state-sponsored transfer test. The guidance strongly recommends that schools do not use criteria related to academic ability. It goes on to recommend a menu of non-academic admissions criteria from which boards of governors of post-primary schools should draw in deciding their admissions criteria. That includes giving priority to children in receipt of free school meals, those with a sibling currently attending the school, and applicants who are the eldest child. It also includes geographic criteria relating to feeder primary schools, a named parish or catchment area, which are all to be used in conjunction with the criterion of the nearest suitable school to ensure that rural children are not disadvantaged.

It is my belief that the transfer process, as experienced by parents and children, would be much fairer if all schools followed the Department’s guidance and ceased the use of academic selection and rejection for admission into schools.

Leslie Cree (UUP, North Down)

I thank the Minister for his answer. Minister, do you not agree that you have effectively privatised the transfer system?

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

No. Boards of governors make a conscious decision every year. Every year at a board of governors meeting, a board of governors should set its entrance criteria. Every board of governors that sits down and decides not to use academic selection follows a pathway that does not reject any child on the basis of a dodgy dossier. Schools that decide, at a board of governors meeting, to follow the pathway of academic selection decide to use dodgy dossiers to admit children to their school. There is no educational reason for doing it; there is a social reason for doing it. If it is for social selection, those who support it should stand up and say so. This is for social selection, not for educational selection. Those who defend and make excuses for those schools are responsible for what you term the "privatisation" of admissions criteria. I, for one, campaign daily to bring that process to an end.

Gordon Dunne (DUP, North Down)

I must say that I find it unacceptable that the Minister uses a phrase such as "dodgy dossiers" in relation to the selection procedure. Does the Minister agree that, in the main, the system works extremely well because we do not have education authorities or boards involved in it? The fact that they are kept out of it means that the system works extremely well, and, in the main, Protestant and Catholic parents are happy with it.

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

The Member stands in an elected Assembly as an elected representative who is charged with holding to account the use of public funds, and he makes the statement that the system works better because the education authorities and boards etc keep out of it. That is probably one of the most undemocratic statements I have ever heard in the Chamber. What, then, is the purpose of the Chamber? What is the purpose of elected representatives? What is the purpose of the ballot box if we do not elect politicians to govern? That is what we are all about and what the Chamber is about.

Does the system work well? No, it does not. Evidence of that is in the draft Equality Commission report published only a fortnight ago. The evidence is in the report published by the OECD two years ago. The evidence comes from the United Nations Committee on the Rights of the Child and the Human Rights Commission. The evidence has been presented by the trade union movement and can be found in the trail of underachievement in working-class communities. We ignore the international evidence, not for educational purposes but for social selection purposes. There is no educational evidence that backs up academic selection — none whatsoever — but there is plenty to back up its use for social selection. Parties such as yours, which opposed academic selection in the mid-1980s on the basis of social selection, need to go back to your previous position.

Christopher Hazzard (Sinn Féin, South Down)

Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. I thank the Minister for his answers thus far. Minister, bearing in mind that more than two thirds of schools have moved away from selection and do not have any academic selection at age 10, what progress has been made in moving away from selection the final rump of schools that insist on that process?

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

I believe that there has been a change in attitudes to academic selection, particularly in the Catholic sector. That has been driven, in fairness, by the position taken up by a number of groups — the Catholic Bishops and the Catholic Principals Association. They have been driving forward the agenda and reminding people in their sector that academic selection is not only educationally wrong but, in the words of the Catholic Bishops, "morally wrong". There is a shift away from so-called academic selection, which is, in fact, social selection. On the basis of equality and the foundations — Mr Deputy Speaker, it is very difficult to talk when others are having a full-blown conversation.

Roy Beggs (UUP, East Antrim)

I will judge when I think it appropriate to intervene. Minister, do you wish to continue or have you finished?

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

With respect, Mr Deputy Speaker, I was just making you aware that it was very difficult to hear. I was not asking you to intervene.

We ask that further schools move away from academic selection in the time ahead. An example of how public opinion changes matters is that a vote in the Chamber yesterday was, a year ago, unachievable. It was made achievable because activists who believe in equality made it so. Therefore, there is a responsibility on the trade union movement, on political parties in the Chamber that oppose academic selection and on civic society to campaign against it.

Patsy McGlone (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Mid Ulster)

3. Mr McGlone asked the Minister of Education what steps his Department is taking to address the health and well-being of teachers in schools. (AQO 9001/11-16)

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

I am aware of the health and well-being issues that are faced by teachers in our schools and the importance of addressing them if we are to retain a committed, motivated and healthy teaching workforce. The responsibility for the health and well-being of teachers rests with their employers, their board of governors, in conjunction with the employing authority, where relevant. The employing authorities and the teachers' unions work together through the teachers' negotiating committee (TNC) to tackle issues that impact on teachers' health and well-being. My Department is also part of the TNC.

Over recent years, a number of measures have been introduced to support teachers' health and well-being. They include the development of a strategy for teachers' health and well-being; a policy statement on tackling violence and abuse against teachers; a workload agreement; a teachers' attendance procedure, which includes a new provision for the recording of incidences of work-related stress; an independent 24-hour confidential telephone counselling service for all teachers provided by Carecall; a flexible working scheme; a job-share scheme; a career break scheme; temporary variations of contracts; and a policy statement on planning, preparation and assessment time.

Notwithstanding all of that, I assure Members that this is a matter of the utmost importance to me. Most recently, I personally endorsed the reinvigoration of the teachers' health and well-being working group of the TNC. I expect to see a clear, agreed action plan, outlining specific activities for my Department, employers, employing authorities and the unions to take on, in partnership, to tackle this critical issue.

Patsy McGlone (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Mid Ulster)

Go raibh maith agat, a Aire as an fhreagra sin. Thanks very much to the Minister for that response. What steps are being taken by the Education and Training Inspectorate (ETI) to minimise the occurrence or impact of stress during school inspections?

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

There has been engagement between the ETI and the unions, which has seen a change even in how we report on our inspections. I understand that inspections are stressful for teachers and schools. We often hear of the negative side of inspections. Every year, I host an event in the Long Gallery upstairs at which maybe 100 or 150 schools are presented with certificates for outstanding and good inspections. The pride in that room is unbelievable among the teaching staff, the principals and the boards of governors, and rightly so, but neither the media nor anyone else reports on it.

Inspections are good for schools, in my opinion; they are good for the education system. Yes, they should be carried out in a respectful manner and in a manner that does not cause undue stress to the schools or the teachers etc, but they are there for the benefit of our education system. We learn from the best practice, we share best practice and we want to see all our young people being taught in schools that live under the heading of Every School a Good School.

Daithí McKay (Sinn Féin, North Antrim)

Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. What action is the Minister's Department taking to address the health and well-being needs of the non-teaching staff in our schools?

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

There is a suite of HR policies and procedures in place to support the health and well-being of our non-teaching staff. A number of family-friendly agreements, which recognise the competing pressures on staff, have been negotiated with the trade unions. For example, all staff have 24-hour counselling support and individual counselling services provided by Carecall on behalf of the Education Authority. In addition, the authority employs welfare officers who are available to support staff and to signpost them to specialist services that can provide further support for individuals. Grievance procedures and harassment and bullying policies are in place, as are whistle-blowing policies for circumstances in which staff require formal mechanisms for having any grievance or concern addressed.

Trevor Lunn (Alliance, Lagan Valley)

Mr McGlone asked the question that I wanted to ask, but I will develop it slightly. Anecdotally, we hear that school inspections are, obviously, very stressful and that, when the inspection is concluded, the school is left with an impression of a result that is not finally recorded when the final report comes through. Is the Minister aware that hopes are raised and then dashed, effectively?

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

I receive varying commentary from schools around inspections. I cannot verify every report I receive, but the majority of reports around inspections that I receive from schools are good. Yes, there is a period of worry leading up to the inspection and, yes, there is a concern while the inspection is taking place, but, once the inspection is complete, schools report back that they are satisfied or happy with the way in which procedures were carried out. A number of individual schools have different commentaries around that. They would question what they have been told and what ends up in the final report etc.

I come back to the point that I believe that inspections are good for the education system at this time. The inspectors are professionals who carry out their duties in a professional manner, and their reports, whether good or bad, need to be taken on board by schools and lessons learned from them.

Robin Newton (DUP, Belfast East)

4. Mr Newton asked the Minister of Education for his assessment of the qualifications, skills and knowledge required by a school principal to manage their budget. (AQO 9002/11-16)

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

The board of governors of each school funded under the common funding scheme is responsible in law for the management of a school's financial allocation. A board of governors is expected to manage a school in accordance with the memoranda and guidance issued by the relevant funding authority and may delegate certain activities to the principal in accordance with a school's financial memorandum. While employers do not have to specify any particular qualifications on budget management for prospective or serving principals, it is not unusual for essential criteria relating to principals' posts to include a management qualification at postgraduate level. Outside formal qualifications, there is an expectation that those who seek to undertake the role of principal or those who are already in a principal's post will have skills and knowledge in budget management. Those skills will have been gained in undertaking leadership roles at middle and senior levels in schools and/or through training, including the professional qualification for headship for those who aspire to be principals or as part of an induction provision for newly appointed principals.

Robin Newton (DUP, Belfast East)

I thank the Minister for his answer. Given what he has outlined with regard to a principal's role, which is separate from a principal's role in a special school, can he explain why the principal of a special school cannot achieve the same standard of management of his or her whole budget in the school from the commencement of the academic year?

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

Special schools are funded in a different manner from grant-funded schools under the common funding scheme. That is why. We have a number of funding schemes set out in the education system. We have funding schemes for voluntary grammar and voluntary integrated schools. We have funding schemes under the common funding scheme and we have funding schemes for special schools. It is a different process.

Seán Rogers (Social Democratic and Labour Party, South Down)

I agree that the professional qualification for headship is an important qualification. What practical help is there for newly appointed principals in developing their budget skills; in particular, things like mentoring or coaching by experienced principals?

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

The important aspect of my answer was that the budget management of a school is the responsibility of its board of governors; it is there to work with, support and manage the school. Powers may be delegated to principals, but let me repeat: the board of governors of each school funded under the common funding scheme is responsible in law for the management of a school's financial allocation. It is the responsibility of the board of governors, not simply that of the principal.

In response to the other part of your question, yes, newly qualified principals do receive support through mentoring programmes etc but they should also receive support from their board of governors.

Gordon Dunne (DUP, North Down)

5. Mr Dunne asked the Minister of Education for an update on the Holywood multi-schools project. (AQO 9003/11-16)

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

Due to a number of factors, including sustainability and area-planning considerations, the Holywood multi-schools project has not been included in any of my announcements to date for new capital builds. In order for the project to be taken forward, it would need to be included in a future capital announcement. Any such announcement will be dependent on the capital budget available to the Department of Education in the next Budget cycle for April 2016 onwards.

Gordon Dunne (DUP, North Down)

I thank the Minister for his answer. Does he fully recognise the need for new-build schools in Holywood? I appreciate that, some time ago, he visited Priory Integrated College, Holywood Nursery School and Holywood Primary School. Once again, I reiterate that the five schools in the town are all over 50 years of age. Does he recognise the need for investment to address how they have been under-resourced for many years?

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

I recognise the need for a new-build programme in Holywood; there is no argument about that. The point is that we need sufficient funds to carry the projects forward.

There are numerous schools awaiting new builds, and I would welcome Members' support in lobbying for an increase in the capital budget for education, even for the next term, when I will not be Minister. Education deserves an uplift in its capital budget. The investment benefits not only the school and the school community but the local economy. Yes, schools require new builds, but, to achieve those, we require more capital.

Chris Lyttle (Alliance, Belfast East)

In addition to support for investment across the Holywood multi-schools project, will the Minister acknowledge that Priory Integrated College is in need of planning and capital funding assistance, and does he agree that there is oversubscription for integrated education in neighbouring education areas? On those grounds, will he assure the House that he will stand and deliver for integrated post-primary provision in the area?

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

I have already said to Mr Dunne that the schools in Holywood require new builds, and that includes Priory. I am not going to get into whether there is oversubscription or underprovision for schools in the wider area. I have visited the school and have met the principal on more than one occasion and the board of governors on more than one occasion. Yes, we need to build a new Priory College, but, to do that, I require money. There are many, many schools in the system that require new builds, but it is about getting around to them all.

Peter Weir (DUP, North Down)

6. Mr Weir asked the Minister of Education how he plans to resolve the dispute over the return of Key Stage 3, which has resulted in 12 partnerships not receiving funding under the shared education signature project. (AQO 9004/11-16)

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

I am currently engaged in discussions with teacher trade union representatives in an effort to resolve the current action of non-participation in the statutory assessment process.

Peter Weir (DUP, North Down)

I thank the Minister for giving a succinct answer. Given that one of the major problem areas here is the lack of confidence among teachers in the assessment process, what consideration is being given to having greater direct input from teachers in the future design of Key Stage assessments?

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

I acknowledge the brevity of my answer, but sometimes it is "Less said, easiest mended" in these circumstances. We are involved in detailed negotiations with the unions, and both sides have approached the negotiations with a mindset of resolving this. I hope that that mindset remains in place and we will be able to resolve it. Central to our discussions have been the work and the professional judgement of teachers on levels of progression, as well as reassuring teachers and putting in place mechanisms that put that judgement at the centre of levels of progression. The judgement of the teacher is central, and working in conjunction with his or her colleagues in the school is how we would moderate them. It is also about how we moderate them in conjunction with the professional judgement of neighbouring schools. That is what is at the centre of our discussions. I am attempting to offer reassurances to the unions on how that will be achieved.