Northern Ireland Assembly, 25 January 2016

342 contributions from 63 members. The official report.

Assembly Business

Peter Weir (DUP, North Down)

I beg to move

That Standing Orders 10(2) to 10(4) be suspended for 25 January 2016.

Mitchel McLaughlin (Speaker, South Antrim)

Before we proceed to the Question, I remind Members that the motion requires cross-community support.

Question put and agreed to. Resolved (with cross-community support):

That Standing Orders 10(2) to 10(4) be suspended for 25 January 2016.

Mitchel McLaughlin (Speaker, South Antrim)

As there are Ayes from all sides of the House and no objections, I am satisfied that cross-community support has been demonstrated.

Ministerial Statement

Mitchel McLaughlin (Speaker, South Antrim)

The Minister of Agriculture and Rural Development wishes to make a statement.

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. With your permission, I wish to make a statement on the outcome of the negotiations at the Fisheries Council, which I attended in Brussels on 14 and 15 December and which determined fishing opportunities for 2016. Members will find in the annex to my statement a map of fishing areas and a summary of the main total allowable catches (TACs) and quotas of interest to the local fleet.

Following the publication of scientific advice by the International Council for the Exploration of the Sea (ICES) at the end of June and at the end of October 2015 for our main stock, nephrops, the key priorities for the Council were developed through discussions between officials from the four fisheries administrations and engagement with key stakeholders and Ministers. Locally, I met the fishing industry task force on 5 November and, at that meeting, we agreed that area VII nephrops would remain my number one negotiating priority but that the case for Irish Sea haddock would be pressed hard.

My approach to the negotiations would be guided by the following key principles: total allowable catches should be determined by taking account of the most recent scientific data available; more stocks should be fished at maximum sustainable yield (MSY) in 2016 where possible; and we should support continued progress towards discard elimination. For our key priorities, we wanted to see TACs set for data-limited stocks on a case-by-case basis, taking account of stock trends; a TAC for area VII nephrops adjusted in line with the scientific advice and fishing patterns; a precautionary and responsible TAC for the herring stock in area VIa north; measures to recover sea bass stock that avoid disproportionate impacts on the more sustainable low-impact inshore fisheries; a balanced outcome for the mixed Celtic Sea and Channel fisheries, including cod, haddock, whiting, sole and plaice; and an agreement of an EU quota for blue whiting set at a MSY based on 45% of the total available.

Members may be aware that the landing obligation was introduced for the first time in January 2015 in pelagic fisheries for species such as mackerel and herring. Structures have been put in place to enable member states to work collaboratively to develop regional management proposals for the sea areas and fisheries they have an interest in. My Department works with others on the northwest waters group and, last year, I put forward discard plans for demersal fisheries as part of the progressive introduction of the landing obligation. This year will see more fisheries come within the scope of the CFP landing obligation. That meant that the Council negotiations were a little more complex, because the TACs for certain stocks needed to be raised to accommodate fish that must in future be brought ashore rather than returned to the sea. Our local fleet is now affected by this landing obligation in the nephrops and haddock fisheries.

The negotiations on the first day took place at a plenary session and then during trilateral meetings between individual member states, the Commissioner and the Luxembourg EU presidency. Following this, a first compromise was put to member states on the Tuesday morning. There was some movement in this first compromise on both my key priorities: nephrops went from -18% to -8%, and Irish Sea haddock went from -59% to -24%. What was being offered was still well short of what was needed and what the scientific evidence justified.

Members have been told often in statements such as this about how important the nephrops stock, commonly known as prawns, is to our fleet and the processing industry that depends on it. Each year, I have pressed the Commission for a fair deal on this stock that reflects the scientific advice and the prevailing fishing patterns by those member states that have quota shares. Inevitably, however, the Commission’s opening proposal has been based solely on the scientific assessment of VII different nephrops grounds, without regard to the how it is being fished — or rather, not fished — by some of the member states that hold quota. The relative stability share that each member state has of the TAC is fixed. For area VII the TAC is shared between Spain, France and Ireland, and we have 32·8%. These shares reflect historical fishing patterns, and there is no prospect of changing them for the foreseeable future.

Each year, I and my Southern counterpart, Simon Coveney, present a consistent and well-developed argument for setting the TAC higher than the science would suggest, in order to increase the value of our fixed share and get the quota that is needed by our fleets. I argue that the risk in taking this approach is very low, and landings of nephrops have been consistently below the level of the scientific advice for many years. The nephrops stock in area VII is stable, but there are some variances in the scientific catch advice from year to year. It is appropriate that the TAC changes in line with the change in the catch advice. This means that the TAC may increase in some years and decrease in others.

The scientific advice for catches in 2016 across all the nephrops stocks in area VII totalled 17,719 tons. This was 2% lower than the sum of the scientific advice for 2015, but the 2015 figure was 3% higher than that for 2014. These small variations from year to year are indicative of a stable stock that is being fished sustainably. In my discussions with the Commission and presidency, I said that the TAC for nephrops should decrease by just 2%, in line with the scientific catch advice. This would provide an appropriate TAC of just over 21,000 tons, to which a further uplift would be applied to take account of the landing obligation. This uplift is determined through scientific observations of the fishery and other flexibilities in the discard plan, and was agreed at 10·2%. I am pleased to say that the final outcome for the stock was to have a TAC of 23,348 tonnes, which represents a net increase of 8·2%.

It is Commission policy to follow a precautionary approach to TAC-setting where there is no analytical stock assessment available. I and fellow fisheries Ministers are strongly opposed to this approach, and we want to ensure that the Commission makes proposals using the scientific advice available rather than some arbitrary revision based on a one-size-fits-all policy. Irish Sea haddock is such a case, and this was my other key priority. The Commission, following its policy framework, had proposed a new TAC based on recent average catches and representing a 59% reduction on last year. However, in the case of Irish Sea haddock, reduced catches in recent years are not a reflection of the stock biomass, but due to other factors such as restrictions on days at sea, local fishing prohibitions to protect cod and the use of highly selective gears in the nephrops fishery.

In its scientific advice, ICES acknowledges that its advisory framework does not ideally suit this stock or any other stock that is subject to highly variable recruitment. The survey index used for the assessment of this stock is considered by ICES as being a good indicator of stock abundance. The 2015 estimate of stock abundance is the highest in the time series and more than double that of the late 1990s during the height of the fishery. The 2015 TAC was 1,181 tons, which was a roll-over based on the previous year’s TAC and was partially justified on the 22% increase in the index used by ICES. This year, that change was +118%, indicating a significant increase in stock size.

Ahead of the Council, my Department and AFBI put forward papers to the Commission presenting a case for an increase in the TAC of 20%. I pressed home points at the trilateral meeting with the Commission and the presidency and, in parallel with my counterpart Simon Coveney, I pressed for a significant uplift in the quota to accommodate the landing obligation. The final proposal from the Commission was to increase the TAC by 10% and uplift the quota by a further 355 tons for the landing obligation. This represents an overall increase of 40%.

A further significant development was a joint statement, which will appear in the TAC and quota regulation. It notes that the Commission and the Council understand that the assessment model for haddock in the Irish Sea is no longer fit for purpose, and they call on ICES to make every effort to find a suitable solution during 2016. Our scientific advisors in AFBI will be making an important contribution to those deliberations.

For many years, cod recovery plans have been in force in the Irish Sea to help build cod stocks. The fleet has made tremendous efforts to minimise cod mortality. Cod is now a by-catch fishery and our fleet reduces its impact on the stock by deploying highly selective gears in the nephrops fishery. There is no longer a directed fishery for Irish Sea cod, but fishers involved in the developing white fish fishery are skilfully targeting haddock while avoiding areas where cod is likely to be present. The latest assessment of cod stocks shows some small improvements.

The current cod recovery plan has been largely discredited. It provided for year-on-year restrictions on the number of days that could be fished in the cod recovery zone and year-on-year reductions in the TAC until stock targets were reached. Several years ago, the Council of Ministers took a decision to freeze the fishing effort restrictions provided for in the plan. The legality of this action was challenged in the European Court of Justice by the Commission and the Parliament. Its judgement was delivered earlier in December, with the ruling going against the Council, but the court allowed the effort freeze to remain for a further year to allow time for a new legislative instrument to replace the cod plan to be put in place. In a statement, the Commission said that it was conscious of the need to have appropriate provisions in place, and pledged its help for the Council and Parliament to achieve that aim.

The annex to my statement details the TAC movements to other fish stocks that are landed by the local fleet. The continued application of the cod recovery plan resulted in a 20% reduction in the cod TAC and there was a 56% cut in the sole TAC. We have a small amount of this quota, and the fish is caught as a by-catch. It is a concern for the future when this species is subject to the landing obligation and it may well have an impact as a choke species for the nephrops fleet. This is, however, a commitment to do further scientific work on the sole stock assessment. The reduction in herring of -6% was in line with the science and the maximum sustainable yield for this stock. There were welcome increases in hake and megrim and the fishing opportunities for other quota stocks remained unchanged.

Before I close, I want to give Members some more information about the landing obligation, which presents the most significant challenge for our fishing fleet. It is a ban on discarding fish overboard, but will apply only to stocks that are subject to total allowable catches. It started from 1 January 2015 for herring and mackerel fisheries and from 1 January 2016 for nephrops and white fish fisheries, but it does not apply to species like scallops, crab and lobster.

The main effect of the landing obligation in the North will be felt by the Irish Sea nephrops fleet. A recently published review by the Sea Fish Industry Authority of the potential economic implications of the landings obligation paints a bleak picture, with some scenarios suggesting that the fishery would be closed after only having fished a quarter of the days that it did compared to 2013. The key problem for the fleet is that it has small quotas for some stocks — whiting, sole and plaice, for example — caught as a by-catch in the nephrops fishery. These quotas will be quickly exhausted once the fleet is required to land them. These stocks are often referred to as choke species. However, the Sea Fish Industry Authority analysis excludes the effects of quota uplifts and the adoption of highly selective gears that may mitigate the impact of the landing obligation significantly. Our fleet has already adopted highly selective fishing gears. Huge changes have been made in the last two years to reduce catches of cod, and the selective fishing gear that is now in use also significantly cuts catches of juvenile whiting and other unwanted fish. The current gears reduce whiting catches by 50% to 65% and there is an ongoing programme of research involving scientists and the industry to make further improvements.

Trials are being supported by my Department to further improve selectivity, especially by-catches of whiting. It is important to stress that an acceptable fishing gear is one that not only achieves conservation objectives but ensures that the commercial catch is not seriously compromised. The only way of achieving that objective is to involve industry experts at every step of the way to find acceptable solutions.

The challenge presented by the landing obligation is not one that can be completely solved by gear technology. The ability to use many of the flexibilities under the landing obligation depends on being able to provide robust data. This includes data on the state of stocks and discard levels, on limits to selectivity in fishing gears and on survivability.

An important first step will be to identify areas where data is missing or can be improved and, thereafter, take steps to produce this data. I believe that my Department and its scientific advisers have a good working relationship with our local fishing industry. We have had a number of very important fisheries/science partnerships with our fleet, and I want to see those expand to help fill the gaps in our knowledge.

Finally, realistic quota uplifts to account for the extra fish that have to be landed will be critical, and that was a key part of the work with the Commission around the December negotiations. The landing obligation has been a major focus of attention at the fishing industry task force, and it has raised a number of practical difficulties aside from quota restrictions and improving gear selectivity. The task force has also highlighted operational difficulties: the extra sorting time on board will reduce the amount of time they can fish; storage space on board will be used up; and there will be costs for additional fish boxes and ice to keep these fish separated and in good condition. Processors are also unhappy that extra costs will be incurred, and there are uncertainties about the effect of extra landings on fish prices.

I am committed to finding acceptable solutions to these real-world problems. I will be making financial resources available from the European Maritime and Fisheries Fund (EMFF), which is expected to come online shortly, to the catching and processing sectors and other businesses in the fish supply chain to assist with the handling, storage, disposal and marketing of increased supplies of fish landed under the landing obligation. I want to make sure that those measures receiving support minimise the cost of dealing with this material and maximise its potential value.

The fisheries task force also pointed to the need, for marketing and economic reasons, to make optimum use of landed species that are marketable and were previously discarded. New markets for human consumption are required for these species, and I am committed to making EMFF assistance available to support these investigations.

There are still many uncertainties and questions to be answered about how the landing obligation will work in practice and, indeed, the control framework that will be in place in future to provide an assurance that CFP obligations are being met. This is a work in progress, which will demand flexibility by all concerned.

I am grateful for this opportunity to inform Members about the outcome of the 2015 fisheries negotiations. In my key priorities for nephrops and haddock, the outcome was to secure an additional £1·2 million of fishing opportunities for local fishermen in 2016. Some 480 tons of additional prawn quota will be available for local fishermen in 2016, worth just over £1 million. This brings the value of the quota up to £14·2 million. The fleet will have access to around 160 tons of extra Irish Sea haddock, worth in the region of £170,000, which brings the value of the quota up to over £570,000.

I want to put on record my thanks to my colleagues George Eustice, Richard Lochhead, Rebecca Evans and Simon Coveney for their strong support throughout the negotiations.

William Irwin (DUP, Newry and Armagh)

Thank you Mr Speaker, and I would like to thank the Minister for her statement. I refer the Minister to the paragraphs in her statement that make reference to landing obligations. The first of the landing obligations for species such as mackerel and herring came into effect last year. I understand from previous briefings by officials that the landing obligations for prawns and white fish came into effect on 1 January 2016. What assessment has been done on the real-world financial impact of these landing obligations on our fleet and the associated processing industry?

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

As I said throughout my statement, a number of challenges have been created for the local industry, and it is important that my officials and the scientists at AFBI continue to work with the task force that is in place to look at how we can best maximise the potential of exploiting the fish that they catch. What are the new markets for that? How can it be processed quickly and turned around into a profitable stock for the industry? Whilst there are certainly a number of challenges, I think that, collectively, we can take them on and work our way through them. It is important that we strive for efficiency in the industry, and I think that there will be opportunities with the new EMFF to bring forward some real, practical solutions to help the fishing industry to deal with the additional stock that they will have on board, including the fact that they might need to buy new boxes and the additional cost of having more ice on the boats. So there are a number of challenges. I think that, certainly, there will be opportunities for us to assess the industry and look to the future.

Oliver McMullan (Sinn Féin, East Antrim)

Go raibh maith agat. Minster, you mentioned that you had secured a 24% increase of haddock despite the Commission recommending a 59% cut. What will this mean for the industry?

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

I was able to secure a significant increase in the basic TAC, as well as an appropriate uplift for the landing obligation to help the industry to meet it. Having started off with -59%, we ended up getting the Commission up to a 40% increase. That is something that creates additional opportunity for the industry. Producer organisations will have in excess of 160 tons of additional haddock available this year. That, in itself, is significant for the industry. It was quite a challenging negotiation to turn something around from what is almost -60% and come out at the other end with a 40% increase.

Seán Rogers (Social Democratic and Labour Party, South Down)

I thank the Minister for her statement. The best thing is to try to minimise discards. What encouragement or incentives — I am thinking in particular of future quota uplifts — are being used to promote use of more selective fishing gear to avoid catching small fish?

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

We all share the same aspiration, which is to avoid discards and certainly to minimise them as much as we can. The industry has shown significant leadership over the last number of years by presenting to the Commission its ideas on how we can have more selective gear. Ours was one of the first industries to take that forward as its own initiative, and it avoided a cut to our local quota as a result. That was a very positive initiative. We need to look continually at what types of gear can be used. The industry continues to work with the Department on trialling different selective gear to see what works best for fishermen on their boats, what minimises discards, and what allows them to have a sustainable fishery and make some profit out of their everyday work.

Jo-Anne Dobson (UUP, Upper Bann)

I also thank the Minister for her statement and welcome the news on the nephrops TAC. Given the implications for the white fish sector, will she update the House on the Irish Sea ecosystem project benchmarks and the cod tagging project?

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

I have no details on the latter two elements that you referred to, but I am very happy to respond to you in writing to give you more detail on where those projects sit.

It was a very difficult negotiation, and nephrops, or "prawns" as they are commonly known, are the most important fish stock for the local industry, so I was delighted that we were able to turn around what was potentially a very negative and detrimental cut to the industry and come out with an 8% increase. That creates a real and meaningful difference for the industry, which particularly needed it this year, given the challenges that it faces around white fish, discards, and selectivity and the other challenges to be met on the landing obligation. From that point of view, it was quite a successful negotiation.

Kieran McCarthy (Alliance, Strangford)

I thank the Minister for her very detailed statement. We must offer gratitude for her work, and that of the Department, to come back with extra fishing opportunities worth an extra £1·2 million. The Minister will remember that, prior to going to Brussels, she met local fishermen. Their suggestions, among others, included developing more diverse and sustainable mixed fisheries in the Irish Sea to enable the Northern Irish fleet to be less reliant on the prawn/nephrops catch. Is the Minister satisfied that, notwithstanding the extra £1·2 million, that has materialised? Will there be a mixed opportunity, rather than depending on nephrops all the time?

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

Yes. As I said, the priority for the industry is nephrops, but we do need to have a more diverse fishery if we are going to be sustainable into the future. We therefore need to develop other opportunities. It was great that we were able to turn around what was a very negative proposal for haddock and come out with a 40% increase. That, in itself, creates a bit more of a opportunity outside of the mainstay of nephrops fishing.

An issue that was not resolved at the December Fisheries Council meeting is the task force working with the Department on what the medium- and longer-term aims for the industry are and what the strategy is for the industry going forward. It will certainly include developing a diverse fishery — one that does not depend solely on nephrops. Like anything in life, if you put all your eggs in one basket, you will be very dependent on it and held to ransom. It would be to the benefit of the industry if we could get to a stage at which we have a more diverse fishery.

Mitchel McLaughlin (Speaker, South Antrim)

Before we continue, we are getting very bad interference from the sound system, which makes life very difficult for Hansard. Will Members please check that they have their phones switched off?

Jim Wells (DUP, South Down)

Each January, the Minister comes to the House and reports on the high-wire act that is negotiations about our fisheries in Brussels. Will she note that Norway and Iceland have thriving, sustainable fish stocks and that they are outside the European Union? Given that, why did she lecture us last week on the dangers to Northern Ireland from the prospect of Brexit?

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

Because I have genuine concerns about a Brexit and its implications for local industry, not just fisheries but the agrifood industry. It is up to the Member whether he wants to go out into his constituency and talk to individual farmers who would lose their basic payment as a result of pulling out of Europe. Will the Tory Government replace that? I doubt it very much but, if he can give that assurance, I am sure that people would be very interested to hear it.

I can articulate my views on our position on being in or out of Europe. Are there challenges? Absolutely. Purely from the point of view of fisheries, there are difficulties when I go every December to argue the quota for the year ahead. It presents all sorts of challenges but I think that our position is far better in Europe, fighting our corner and making a case for the industry. We could debate all day our membership of the European Union and what it means.

The local agrifood industry would be decimated by coming out of Europe. What would the implications be for trade on this island? We export something like 80% of what we produce. Where would that product go? What about trade agreements? Are they going to be secured? Will that be allowed to happen? There are too many uncertainties, I believe. I will always articulate my view, as you are entitled to articulate yours.

Jim Allister (Traditional Unionist Voice, North Antrim)

Six weeks after the event, the statement is rather stale, so I will follow up on Mr Wells's point. Surely, even as an avowed Europhile, the Minister can now see that our 40 years in the EU has been a disaster for the fisheries sector? It is but a shadow of its former self. We are told where we can fish, when we can fish and what we can fish with in our own waters by Brussels, and we are handed down quotas. Surely the Minister can see, whatever she might think of other sectors, that the fishing sector would benefit tremendously from being freed of the shackles of the EU? Is she going to deny that simple fact?

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

I have made my points consistently in this House. At every Question Time when the Member has asked me about our membership of Europe, I have always said that there are certainly challenges but that we are better placed in Europe, with strong MEP teams fighting our corner. When it comes to fisheries, every December for the past five years, I have gone out and fought our corner very articulately and come back with good news, year on year.

We need to look at it in the round. Taking agriculture for example, who is going to replace the £300 million in single farm payments, or basic payments as they are now known? Who is going to replace that in the local economy? I am quite sure that you are aware that most farmers could not survive without their basic payment. Who is going to replace the £500 million in the rural development programme, which assists local rural tourism, rural businesses and basic services in rural communities?

Jim Allister (Traditional Unionist Voice, North Antrim)

Tell us about fisheries.

Mitchel McLaughlin (Speaker, South Antrim)

Order.

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

I tell you what: I have seen the Tories in action. I have seen what they have done over the last number of years and I certainly would not want to give anyone a guarantee that they will replace supports for rural communities, for the agrifood industry and for business.

Jim Allister (Traditional Unionist Voice, North Antrim)

Tell us what Brussels has done to our fisheries.

Mitchel McLaughlin (Speaker, South Antrim)

Order. I will not warn the Member again.

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

That is my view.

Ian McCrea (DUP, Mid Ulster)

Without wanting to be repetitive, the Minister said that there are difficulties and challenges ahead. Anyone who knows anything of the fishing industry knows that, as the previous Member said, it has faced nothing but challenges and difficulties, given the regulations that Europe has very vociferously handed down. Will the Minister not at least concede that, whether or not she trusts the Tories and believes that they will give any subsidies to the fishing industry, there would be benefits from not having regulations coming from Europe and, in that sense, a Brexit might not be a bad thing?

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

No, I am not convinced of that. There are too many uncertainties. We do not know what would be at the other side of that. We do not know what it would mean for the fishing industry's trading patterns and for the wider agrifood industry. There is no point in rehearsing the arguments that I made previously, but there are too many uncertainties.

We do not know what will come out the other side, but the one thing that we can be certain of is Tory policy. The Tories will not be up for supporting subsidies for the fishing industry, the agrifood industry or the farming industry. They are not up for that. I do not think that any of us can stand over anything that will be at the other side of a potential Brexit, but we can stand over the Tories' track record.

Christopher Hazzard (Sinn Féin, South Down)

Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. I thank the Minister for her statement. It is clear to see that there is an election around the corner, with the TUV and the DUP fighting over the "Leave Europe" stance. Perhaps one of the benefits from Europe on this — the Minister alluded to it in her statement — is the European maritime fisheries fund. Perhaps the Minister could outline what benefits that fund —

Jim Wells (DUP, South Down)

Plant.

Christopher Hazzard (Sinn Féin, South Down)

It is not a plant. The Member is shouting "plant" from a sedentary position. As a Member who represents the fishing industry in Ardglass and Kilkeel, I know that the European maritime fisheries fund would go a long way to improving the industry. Those two ports have a specific interest in it. Perhaps the Minister could outline the benefits that that fund could have.

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

I think that the industry in that area would be keen to know that some Members are suggesting that we should send back the £13·7 million that will be available to their communities. That is the figure that we have for the EMFF programme over the next six years. That, along with local funding, will bring over £18·3 million of investment for fishermen, processors, the aquaculture sector and for the communities and people who live round the ports. That is significant investment in the time ahead that will allow us to do a lot of initiatives to help those communities and help us to deal with some of the challenges that have been identified around the landing obligations. It will be the backbone of supporting the fishing and seafood sectors up until 2020, with the bulk of the funding going towards dealing with the CFP reform measures and improving the economic future and sustainability of local fishing ports.

Executive Committee Business

Mitchel McLaughlin (Speaker, South Antrim)

I call the Minister of Finance and Personnel, Mr Mervyn Storey, to move the Bill.

Moved. — [Mr Storey (The Minister of Finance and Personnel).]

Mitchel McLaughlin (Speaker, South Antrim)

One amendment has been tabled. Members will have received a copy of the grouping list and the Marshalled List, which provide details of the amendment. The amendment deals with rate relief for community amateur sports clubs. Once the debate on the amendment is completed, the Questions on stand part will be put. If that is clear, we shall proceed.

Clause 1 (Power for Department to increase rates reduction provided under Article 31 of the 1977 Order in certain cases)

Daithí McKay (Sinn Féin, North Antrim)

I beg to move the following amendment:

In page 1, line 8, at end insert

"(5B) Prescribed cases in regulations under paragraph (5A) shall include hereditaments which are occupied by community amateur sports clubs.

(5C) The first regulations under paragraph (5A) shall be made by 30 September 2016.”,

(b) in paragraph (6) insert where appropriate?—

““community amateur sports clubs” means registered clubs within the meaning of section 658(6) of the Corporation Tax Act 2010;”.".

The purpose of the amendment is to provide relief to sports clubs so that the money saved can be used for reinvestment in sport, in our children and our young people and in the community as a whole. I want to state from the outset my appreciation of the fact that the Department and the Minister have listened to my argument about supporting our local community amateur sports clubs and adopted a position of offering extra relief to many clubs that carry out tireless work, day in day out. That is to be welcomed and will no doubt be appreciated by the many clubs that will benefit.

I was in Ahoghill in my constituency last Friday night to watch a comedy play called 'St Mungo's', which is about a local GAA club; it is absolutely fantastic viewing, regardless of whether or not you are into GAA. One of the main characters is a local man who comes home from living in London. After he comes home, he promises his wife that he will not become too involved in the local club. Within a short time, he is out at the club every night of the week, and he ends up coaching the underage players and managing and playing in the senior team. There are so many men and women who make that kind of commitment all year round and do not seek any praise or reward. Some end up divorced, and some do not. They turn so many people's lives around. They are leaders for our young people and our children; they are on the front line of our public health service; and they save government millions in recreation provision and health spending.

The money saved through this relief will be of huge benefit to the people who drive our amateur sporting clubs. I spoke to one amateur sporting club member in recent days who told me that her rural club was considering building extra facilities but rates would be a major factor and, if the annual overhead was too much, the club would not proceed with that extra facility in a rural community. That club has no licensed bar, but I know of many clubs with a bar that have great facilities. Some have facilities in rural communities that have not benefited from one pound of government funding but have provided a fantastic public service in those communities for generations. They should not be treated differently from other clubs simply because they have a bar to fundraise for their facilities, for their underage teams or for bus fares to take the players to matches. Many rugby clubs will not benefit if the amendment is not agreed. I spoke to many of them over the weekend. They deserve the relief. Ulster Rugby has produced some of the best rugby players in the world, and of course it deserves that support to ensure that more money goes to facilities to train even more world-class players.

The amendment sets out to do two things. First, it sets out, under paragraph (5A), that the prescribed cases to which the Department will provide 100% relief shall include community amateur sports clubs (CASCs). That is in accordance with paragraphs (3) and (4) of article 31 of the Rates Order, which ensure that the rate relief will apply only to the area used solely for the purposes of a prescribed recreation. That will mean that all community amateur sports club pitches will qualify for 100% relief. It will mean that all CASC changing rooms, for example, will apply for 100% relief and that all parts of CASC facilities that relate to prescribed recreation will qualify for 100% relief. Secondly, the amendment introduces a deadline that ensures that the Department will bring forward regulations before 30 September 2016. That is important. I have no doubt that the present Minister would bring forward regulations to support our local clubs, but we simply do not know who the new Minister will be after the elections. It is important that he or she is focused on getting this work done from the moment that he or she takes up office. In my experience on the Finance and Personnel Committee, the officials in the Department responsible for this area are some of the best in their field. The date of 30 September is ample time for them to introduce regulations.

I do not want to labour the arguments any further. The Assembly has discussed them at length since this was first brought to the Floor by my constituency colleague Mr Swann five years ago. My final point is this: if a club without a bar has a pitch and changing rooms that qualify for 100% rate relief, a club with a bar should also have 100% rate relief on its pitch and changing rooms. Why? Those facilities are concerned solely with sport and promoting health and well-being. It is not right or consistent that they are subject to rating because of the club room bar. That bar should be rated, not the recreational facilities.

I very much appreciate the work that has been done on this in the Department by officials, the previous Minister and the current Minister. However, there is a danger of a two-tier system being introduced. All sporting clubs, especially rugby clubs, which are particularly disadvantaged by this, deserve additional support, particularly given the current economic situation. I know of clubs that had good sponsorship in recent years but, because of the economic downturn and, in that instance, the impact on construction, no longer have that funding stream. There is an onus on us to give something back to our amateur sporting clubs. Many of the facilities have been built and funded through the support of the community. Many of the facilities have not availed themselves of government funding of any kind, so there is an onus on us, especially for future development. There are clubs out there that wish to build new stands, facilities or changing rooms, and the rates issue is holding them back. I know especially, coming from a rural constituency, how beneficial those clubs are in a rural setting where there are no other facilities of a similar nature.

Passing the amendment and the Bill will open many doors for the future development of amateur sports clubs in our communities, and that is why I tabled the amendment.

Ian McCrea (DUP, Mid Ulster)

What we thought was going to happen with the amendment has happened. I thought that we had got past this part of the debate, but we seem to be getting a touch of revisionism and trying to go back over old ground.

As the proposer of the amendment said, a long debate on this is not necessary. However, it is important that we look at the amendment. Its proposer wishes to give 100% rate relief to all community amateur sports clubs, whether they have a bar or not. He has not taken into consideration the arguments that the hospitality sector brought before the Committee, including their concern that some larger clubs host events that could be held in local hotels. The fact that clubs are able to do that means that money is taken away from hoteliers. In a sense, it is their right to do that, but it is right that they pay rates for the part of their premises that has a bar. That is the sole reason why we will oppose the amendment.

Whilst the majority of the Bill deals with the very issue the Member is talking about, namely, allowing clubs to reinvest in their facilities, teams and whatever else they do, a bar area brings in money that a club can reinvest. I have not bought into the argument that we need to accept the Member's amendment. He is passionate about the issue. However, it is not the right thing to do. We are going down the right route with 100% rate relief for those without a bar and 80% for those with one. Those with a bar do not lose anything as they already receive 80% rate relief.

The best way to take the Bill forward is to leave it as is. I understand the Member's desire to have the matter dealt with. However, given the concerns that the hospitality sector raised with us during the short time that we had to scrutinise the Bill, it should be left as it is, therefore we will be opposing the amendment.

Claire Hanna (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast South)

I welcome the opportunity to take part in the debate. As we said at the Bill's previous stages, we are content with it receiving accelerated passage. However, we should not be in the habit of bypassing the Assembly's role.

The first clause provides the power to enhance rate relief, which we support. We will support the amendment, as we supported that provision in the private Members' Bill. I thank Mr McKay for his trailer for 'St Mungo's', which, courtesy of St Michael's Primary School PTA , is coming to south Belfast next week, so I am glad to hear that it is a good show.

If the amendment falls, at least the 80% reduction is plenty to be going on with for all the reasons that both Members who have spoken outlined. It will allow clubs to develop, and so we will support the amendment. However, we take on board the arguments in favour of both 80% and 100% and appreciate that some issues with state aid and so on led to the delay in the debate. Whether it is the sale of alcohol or the issue of profitability, we cannot let it stop us making progress on the general principle and purpose of the Bill.

We are very supportive of the second clause, which is about window displays, as I outlined last week. I have subsequently discovered that it is quite innovative, in that nobody else has tried it. That is good because there is a perception that we just borrow our legislation from other jurisdictions. We welcome both provisions and will support the amendment.

Leslie Cree (UUP, North Down)

Thank you very much, Mr Speaker. I rise to complain about the amendment. It goes back a little bit to, and links into, the CASC registration. I think that, in doing that, it excludes others that are not registered. So, I think, we need some other system so that, in the spirit of such clubs, every amateur sports club has the possibility. I do not know if there is a constitution, for instance, with which these CASCs have to comply, but there is, certainly, this question from me: does it exclude some other amateur sports clubs? I think that it does. So, at this stage, I will be voting against the amendment.

Judith Cochrane (Alliance, Belfast East)

I welcome the opportunity to speak at Consideration Stage of the Rates (Amendment) Bill. The amendment is primarily concerned with the rating of premises that are occupied by community and amateur sports clubs. I commend Mr McKay for bringing the issue forward and for the fact that at least some of his proposal is now included in the Department's Bill.

There is no doubt that these clubs play an important role in Northern Ireland. Having grown up as an active member of a ladies' hockey club, I know the positive impact that being involved in sports can have on our physical and mental health. Such clubs also provide activities for young people, and many are involved in positive community relations work. I think that it is important that, as an Assembly, we support them in their growth and sustainability. I therefore welcome the Bill, in general, as it provides a power to enhance the rate relief for the clubs, subject to criteria being prescribed in regulations.

Looking specifically at the amendment, whilst I am sympathetic to the idea that we should increase the relief to all clubs that are currently eligible for the 80% relief, I have some reservations about whether it is fair if it is done with such a blunt tool. I am supportive of the bar areas being assessed, similar to other non-sporting club bars, and to a decision being taken then on whether the club should be able to avail itself of the additional relief in the bar area. However, that is not what the amendment is proposing, unfortunately. I am supportive of the second part of the amendment, which places a date of introduction for the reductions by 30 September 2016 to allow our eligible clubs to receive the relief as soon as possible. Again, however, that has not been drafted as a separate amendment. That makes it difficult to try to support that aspect of it, if we are not convinced of the merits of the amendment in its totality.

I will listen carefully to further contributions to see if there is further clarification on how additional support might be given in a fair and balanced manner, before I commit one way or the other.

Mervyn Storey (DUP, North Antrim)

Thank you to those Members who have contributed to the debate — this afternoon. I had to check to make sure that we were in the afternoon.

There is only one amendment tabled at this stage. I am in the position of having to oppose it when it is taken in its entirety. I will take some time to work through the reasons why. It is regrettable that we find ourselves in this position. There are elements within the amendment that would have been acceptable to me, and which would have fallen neatly within the stated aim of the Bill, as introduced, and my preferred policy position for consultation.

I will start positively and look at the good points within the amendment, and then we will come to the others. In looking at the positive aspects of the amendment to clause 1, I can support the express requirement to make regulations by the end of September. It is, largely, a cosmetic change, because that was my Department's intent. Nonetheless, I would be happy to put it in the Bill, if it provided Members with greater surety. Likewise, I am happy to make the express reference to "community amateur sports clubs". Again, that would be a presentational change, because that is another key aspect of my preferred policy. I have no issue, per se, with the reference being put into the Bill if Members feel that it would be of benefit.

I will move on, with regret, to outline why I cannot support the amendment in its totality.

My reason for opposing the amendment is that its effect, either intentionally or unintentionally on behalf of the Members tabling it, will to revert to the policy that was advocated by the private Member's Bill on this area, which my party and my predecessor opposed. Members will recall that my predecessor vehemently opposed that Bill and the depth of my Department's concerns with that approach. This is a different Bill, but the position has not changed.

I know that, when the Committee considered the issue, it recognised that matters were not as straightforward as Mr McKay previously outlined in advocating his Bill. The valid concerns of the hospitality industry were vindicated in its evidence session and underlined the genuine nature of its concerns, which some chose to doubt during the October debate. Indeed, anyone reading the Minutes of Evidence from those Committee sessions would have grasped the complexity of the issue at hand, the competing policy considerations at play and the lack of understanding of this issue, I think, on Mr McKay's part. If anything, the Committee consideration heavily underlined the need for the completion of the necessary due process work before the detail is legislated for.

At Second Stage, I commented on the problems associated with a blanket policy position being enshrined in the amendment; for example, the award of enhanced relief to all community amateur sports clubs. Those problems, now well-documented in the Chamber and in Committee, centre on the lack of due process work and the competition issues created by the policy approach adopted in the previous private Member's Bill in this area and the amendment being considered today. Unlike the Members proposing the amendment, I cannot dispense with those concerns. My Department would have to defend a judicial review against such a weak and ill thought-through policy and the public purse would have to fund any shaky defence associated with such a case.

The specific detail of my issue with the proposed amendment relates to the new paragraph 5B, which is drafted in a way that prevents the prescribing of conditions that would have to be satisfied before enhanced relief would be awarded. I hope that is inadvertent. The amendment has the effect of requiring all community amateur sports club cases falling within clause 1(2) to be given the relief.

Should the three Members be receptive, I would be open to a change that would retain most of the drafting in the amendment but reinstate the ability to prescribe conditions that would have to be satisfied. As Members know, I would then intend to consult on the use of that conditionality provision to limit relief to community amateur sports clubs without bar facilities and/or a liquor licence. That would be done very simply by adjusting paragraph 5B to insert the words, "subject to such conditions as may be prescribed" after the words, "shall include".

As a show of good faith and in a spirit of cooperation, should Members agree with my opposition to the amendment, I would offer the opportunity to meet with Mr McKay and others to discuss the possibility of agreeing such a further revision that could then be tabled at Further Consideration Stage. I would be very happy to support an adjustment that has conditionality reinserted, but I cannot support the amendment as it stands.

Given the issues that I cited, I ask therefore that Members simply oppose the amendment. Should the amendment pass, at a minimum, a further amendment for Further Consideration Stage would be required to revise clause 1 in line with my earlier suggestion so that it remains compatible with the preferred policy position of the Department. I appeal to Members to decline the current amendment and ask them to work with me on a revised draft of that amendment that we can all advocate in the Further Consideration Stage. If we cannot do that, the amendment stands, and I will give serious consideration to the next steps for the Bill and its continued merit.

I want to conclude by responding to my colleague Mr Cree's point about the omission of community amateur sports clubs from the original Bill. That was deliberate, because consultation will draw out in detail the issues that Mr Cree has rightly raised. That is the point that we want to get to. I want to ensure that what we have in the Bill is fair and equitable. The amendment would leave us in a very unfair situation, and I therefore ask Members not to support it.

Daithí McKay (Sinn Féin, North Antrim)

Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. I thank all the Members and, indeed, the Minister for their contributions. The nature of the debate has been ideal and is how Bills should be considered.

Mr McCrea noted concerns from the hospitality sector about this. They have been well aired in recent months. The amendment is concerned solely with areas of prescribed recreation. The additional relief will not apply to any bars, or facilities associated with bars, in any clubs. That has been made very clear by the reference to article 31(3) and 31(4). The relief will go towards the stands, changing rooms and pitches but not towards any bars.

I assure Ms Hanna that 'St Mungo's Luganulk' is a great show. I assure everybody of that, regardless of whether you are interested in GAA or not. I know that a few there were not interested in GAA but thoroughly enjoyed it anyway. I hope that everybody in the House has an opportunity to see 'St Mungo's Luganulk'. Ms Hanna welcomed the provision and the amendment, and I welcome the continued support of the SDLP for this position.

Mr Cree asked whether what is being proposed excludes amateur sports clubs. It does not, because there will continue to be relief for all amateur sports clubs. There is a need to qualify for this relief, and I believe that the Department is using the title of "community amateur sports clubs" because that is already in the debates associated with the Bill. The intent is to use the community and amateur sports clubs bar, if you like, to qualify. Amateur sports clubs that qualify for relief at the moment will continue to qualify for the 80% relief. What the amendment and, indeed, the Bill does is in addition to what is already in place. I have used the title "community amateur sports clubs". The Department is going in that direction as well, but there will continue to be 80% relief for all amateur sports clubs, regardless of whether they have CASC status or not.

Ms Cochrane said that she supports half the amendment. I hope that that sways her to support the amendment in its entirety. I suspect not. I believe that we need a commencement date for the proposals, because the Bill is so wide in scope. Indeed, I welcome the Minister's comment that he supports that as well.

The Minister raised a number of issues. I appreciate his approach to the issue and appreciate his offer, but I wish to put the amendment forward this afternoon. The Minister has to abide by the Department's position, and he is right that the former Minister vehemently opposed the private Member's Bill. Regardless of how the vote goes this afternoon, I would appreciate discussing with the Minister how to move this through the next two stages.

My concern is that it appears to be a win-lose situation: if you have a bar in a club, you get absolutely nothing from some of the proposals that have been put forward, whereas, if you are an amateur sports club that fundraises through measures aside from having a bar on-site, you get the full 100% relief. The starkness of those two positions is a concern. However, I believe that regardless of the outcome of the vote, all parties and, indeed, the Department can work ahead.

I appreciate the nature of the debate and propose the amendment.

Question put, That the amendment be made. The Assembly divided:

Ayes 33; Noes 50

AYES

Mr Attwood, Mr Boylan, Mr Dallat, Mr Durkan, Mr Eastwood, Ms Hanna, Mr Hazzard, Mr G Kelly, Mr Lynch, Mr McAleer, Mr F McCann, Ms J McCann, Ms McCorley, Mr McElduff, Ms McGahan, Mr McGlone, Mr M McGuinness, Mr McKay, Mrs McKevitt, Mr McKinney, Ms Maeve McLaughlin, Mr McMullan, Mr A Maginness, Mr Maskey, Mr Milne, Mr Murphy, Ms Ní Chuilín, Mr Ó hOisín, Mr Ó Muilleoir, Mr O'Dowd, Mrs O'Neill, Mr Rogers, Mr Sheehan

Tellers for the Ayes: Mr McKay, Mr Ó hOisín

NOES

Mr Agnew, Mr Allister, Mr Beggs, Ms P Bradley, Mrs Cameron, Mr Campbell, Mr Clarke, Mrs Cochrane, Mr Cochrane-Watson, Mr Craig, Mr Cree, Mr Dickson, Mrs Dobson, Mr Douglas, Mr Dunne, Mr Easton, Mr Ford, Mrs Foster, Mr Frew, Mr Gardiner, Mr Girvan, Mr Givan, Mr Hamilton, Mr Hilditch, Mr Humphrey, Mr Hussey, Mr Irwin, Mr Kennedy, Ms Lo, Mr Lyons, Mr Lyttle, Mr McCarthy, Mr B McCrea, Mr I McCrea, Mr McGimpsey, Mr D McIlveen, Miss M McIlveen, Mr McQuillan, Lord Morrow, Mr Nesbitt, Mr Newton, Mrs Overend, Mrs Pengelly, Mr Poots, Mr P Robinson, Mr Ross, Mr Storey, Ms Sugden, Mr Weir, Mr Wells

Tellers for the Noes: Mr I McCrea, Mr McQuillan

Question accordingly negatived.

Clause 1 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clauses 2 to 6 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Schedule agreed to.

Long title agreed to.

Mitchel McLaughlin (Speaker, South Antrim)

That concludes the Consideration Stage of the Rates (Amendment) Bill. The Bill stands referred to the Speaker.

Emma Little-Pengelly (DUP, Belfast South)

I beg to move

That the Assembly Members (Reduction of Numbers) Bill [NIA Bill 76/11-16] proceed under the accelerated passage procedure.

The motion has been tabled in accordance with Standing Order 42(4) to seek Assembly approval for the Assembly Members (Reduction of Numbers) Bill proceeding under the accelerated passage procedure. On Tuesday 12 January, in advance of the Bill's introduction in the Assembly, junior Minister McCann and I attended a meeting of the Assembly and Executive Review Committee, which had been designated as the appropriate Committee to examine the Bill. At that meeting, we explained, as we are required to do, the reasons why the accelerated passage procedure is needed for the Bill, the consequences of it not being granted and the steps taken to minimise the future use of the procedure. Having provided those explanations, we answered members' questions on a range of issues related to the Bill. They included discussion about the anticipated timescale for the passage of the Bill in the Chamber and the need for it to use the accelerated passage procedure if it is to conclude its legislative stages before the end of the mandate. No member of the Committee voiced concern over the principle of the Bill, which is to reduce the membership of the Assembly by way of a reduction of one in the number of Members returned by each constituency. I now wish to explain those issues to the Assembly and to seek Members' support for the use of the accelerated passage procedure for the Assembly Members (Reduction of Numbers) Bill.

Reform of the Assembly's institutions, including the size of the membership of the Assembly, has been the subject of lengthy and detailed discussion and debate over a considerable period. In 2012, the Assembly and Executive Review Committee produced a report on reduction of the number of Members that identified areas of commonality broadly comparable to what is now proposed. Indeed, a reduction to five in the number of Members to be returned for each constituency was the number most commonly referred to during the Committee's inquiry on the matter.

Through the discussions and debate that have taken place on the issue, it is clear that, while there is an acknowledgement of the particular circumstances here, which provided for an Assembly that is, per capita of population, larger than its counterparts in Scotland and Wales, there is now broad consensus among the parties that there should be a reduction in its membership and that the legislation by which that can be provided should be made now and without further delay. The Fresh Start Agreement reaffirmed the commitment in the original Stormont House Agreement to reduce the number of Members returned for each constituency in time for the 2021 election and committed to having the Bill introduced in the Assembly no later than the end of November 2015 and for it to apply to any post-2016 extraordinary election.

It would, of course, have been preferable if the Bill could have been introduced in time for it to have been moved forward under the usual processes and to have avoided the use of the accelerated passage procedure. Although it had been hoped to introduce the Bill at an earlier stage, immediately following the conclusion of the Fresh Start Agreement, it was first necessary to seek the Executive's agreement to the introduction of the Bill. As a change to the number of Members to be returned for each constituency is a reserved matter, it was also necessary to seek the Secretary of State's consent to the consideration of the Bill by the Assembly. That consent was received shortly before the Assembly went into its Christmas recess, so the Bill is now being progressed at the earliest possible opportunity in this term.

Due to the stage that we have reached in the current Assembly mandate and the guarantee that the Bill will complete all its legislative stages before the end of the mandate and receive Royal Assent before the election, it is, in practical terms, necessary for the accelerated passage procedure to be used.

Without use of the procedure, we anticipate that, at best, the Bill could only reach its Consideration Stage by the time the Assembly is dissolved and the current mandate ends in late March. In such circumstances, the Bill would therefore fall, its legislative passage would cease, and the momentum for the change to be made would be lost or, at best, considerably delayed into the next mandate.

It is our belief that, were the motion to permit the Bill to proceed by way of accelerated passage not to be supported by the House and were it to fail, this institution would be out of step with the broad sentiment, both political and amongst the wider electorate, for the change to take place and for the matter to be definitively settled during the current mandate. We believe that to leave the matter unresolved into the new mandate would incur justifiable criticism. Providing for the change by means of this legislation will also provide certainty for the political parties as to the future size of the Assembly and provide sufficient time for them to consider and plan for that reduction.

There is a real public appetite for change to take place and an expectation that it will occur within a reasonable time frame. Were the passage of the Bill during the current mandate to be impeded through accelerated passage not being granted, implementation of the change would be delayed and the House would be out of step with public sentiment on the matter.

The special circumstances associated with the Bill have therefore occasioned the exceptional request to the Assembly for the use of the accelerated passage procedure. An institutional reform of this nature, which will result in a change to the size of the Assembly, is considered to be unique in the change that it will effect. As such, there is minimal likelihood of such circumstances recurring for the foreseeable future that would necessitate the use of this procedure again on this matter.

A Fresh Start has provided a basis for addressing the important institutional reform of the Assembly and has made it possible for us to move forward, but the opportunity to do so needs to be taken quickly. We ask Members for their support to having the Assembly Members (Reduction of Numbers) Bill progressed by the accelerated passage procedure.

Pat Sheehan (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

The junior Ministers met the Committee on Tuesday 12 January 2016. During the meeting, the Ministers outlined the purpose of the Bill and explained the need for the Bill to progress via the accelerated passage procedure. The Bill provides for a reduction in the number of Assembly Members returned for each constituency. The provisions in the Bill are in line with the agreements reached in the Stormont House Agreement and A Fresh Start. Both agreements outline a number of changes to the institutions to make them more efficient and economical while still serving the needs of the people in the region.

Members will be aware that the Assembly and Executive Review Committee examined the issue in some detail during its review of the number of Members and Departments in 2012. In response to concerns raised by Members, the junior Ministers explained that, although the Bill will not take effect until the first Assembly election after the next Assembly election, the legislation needs to be in place in the event of an extraordinary election. That could take place at any time after the May 2016 elections. Indeed, the Committee explored with the junior Ministers the implications of a possible early extraordinary election in the event of gridlock. The Committee was satisfied that the Bill does not legislate for the different circumstances under which an early election could be called, only the number of Members who could be returned for each constituency.

There was no disagreement from the Committee about the need for accelerated passage in this case, and I would like to make it clear that the Committee supported accelerated passage for the Bill. Go raibh maith agat.

Gordon Lyons (DUP, East Antrim)

I welcome the opportunity to contribute to the debate. It is important that we give our assent to the motion and allow the Bill to have accelerated passage. My party is obviously very keen for the Bill to go through, and we will no doubt talk about that during the Second Stage debate. At the moment, we very much hope that the House gives its consent to accelerated passage.

Most Members will have had the opportunity to read the Bill, and it would not have taken them too long. It is very short and simple, and basically comes down to the fact that we are reducing the number of Members that are returned in each constituency from six to five. As I said, there will be an opportunity for us to debate that later, but, with accelerated passage, we will remove the Committee Stage from the process and the evidence sessions and clause-by-clause scrutiny that may come with that. Given that the Bill is so simple, that it has support and that we are coming towards the end of the mandate, all in all, although we do not want to use the accelerated passage procedure too often, it is right that we use it in this instance so that it can go through the Assembly before the end of the mandate. That will allow us to deliver and say to people out there that we understand their concerns about the size of this place, we are doing something about it, the legislation will be in place for the first election that takes place after May — whenever that will be — and each constituency will return only five Members.

I thank the Minister for tabling the motion in the House today, and I urge other Members to give it their support.

Alex Attwood (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast West)

I will reserve most of my remarks for the Second Stage of the Bill, which will follow shortly. I want to make three points at this stage.

Like other parties, the SDLP consents to accelerated passage on a without prejudice basis, in that it should not be the norm — it is not the norm — and should be the exception. In the last days of this mandate, we find that it is not exceptional to have accelerated passage, and, on too many occasions, it is beginning to be used to inform how the business of the House is conducted. That is not consistent with best democratic standards or the best input by the people whom we represent. We need to caution ourselves that, whilst the SDLP will consent to accelerated passage in this regard, it is without prejudice, and it should be used only in exceptional circumstances. We also put down a marker that, if the next mandate is to be materially different from this one, the House, the Committees and the people of Northern Ireland need to have a full opportunity to assess all legislation that comes before the Chamber rather than rushing to legislate at the end of mandates, which is never the wisest or most sensible course of action.

I differ from Mr Sheehan in one regard. He said that the purpose behind the Bill was to make the Chamber and politics "more efficient" and effective. Anyone who thinks that reducing the number of Members in each constituency from six to five will provide a panacea and automatically make something more efficient and effective does not recognise the scale of the issues that face the Assembly and politics in the North. It may make the Assembly more efficient and effective, but to presume so is a leap of faith that is not based in logic or political reality. I will comment more on that at Second Stage.

As the last Member who spoke indicated, it is a simple Bill, but it is not a simple proposal. The architecture of the Good Friday Agreement built multiple mechanisms into the life of these institutions to recognise that which was denied to too many people and citizens of this part of the world since the partition of Ireland: the principle of inclusion. Whilst the reduction from six to five, in numerical terms, is simple, let us caution ourselves that, in doing that, we do not simply go down the road of further mechanisms that might, innocently or otherwise, lead to the removal of the principle of inclusion that was so denied to our politics for so long and to our people for too long.

Let us not make the principle of simplicity the enemy of the principle of inclusion.

Mitchel McLaughlin (Speaker, South Antrim)

I thank the Member for being brief in his comments but point out that he strayed into discussing the Bill. We will have a further opportunity for that.

Mike Nesbitt (UUP, Strangford)

I am in no way tempted to pick up where the last Member left off. I will delve into those issues in the next debate.

This debate is about accelerated passage. The Ulster Unionist Party is opposed to accelerated passage for the Bill because we see no need for it. It has been coming for a very long time. The junior Minister, in her opening remarks, made it clear that there has been broad consensus on the policy intent of the Bill for a number of years, so there is no good reason why it should not have been introduced in a timelier manner, which would have meant that there was no need for accelerated passage. After all, it is not for the next election; it is for the election after that, which is in 2021 — unless the DUP and Sinn Féin know something that we do not. Towards the end of the last mandate, they were boastful of the fact that the mandate had survived full term, and, recently, of course, they were equally boastful that they had overcome existential threats. There is plenty of time, and, rather than further overloading the remaining legislative programme, which will, as I understand it, keep us here late into many sitting nights, this would be an appropriate Bill to introduce as the first item of business for the next mandate after 5 May. On that basis, we oppose accelerated passage.

Chris Lyttle (Alliance, Belfast East)

The Alliance Party agrees that accelerated passage is not a good practice. The junior Minister has set out reasons why she thinks that it is needed: in my opinion — I think that the public will see this clearly as well — the reasons for the delay were the Sinn Féin blockage of the welfare reform deal that, subsequently, it appears to have agreed in large part and the DUP Executive hokey-cokey. As a result, two important government reforms — the restructuring of Departments and the reduction of MLAs — will have gone through via accelerated passage. That is not good practice, and the Alliance Party puts that on record.

This is a relatively straightforward issue. It is a proposal to reduce the number of MLAs from 108 to 90 and from six to five in each of the 18 constituencies. The parties agree with it in principle. Public sentiment is clearly for more efficient, more effective government, which raises this question: why wait until 2021? Why not deliver it for 2016? That is what should be accelerated rather than the need for accelerated passage.

Christopher Hazzard (Sinn Féin, South Down)

Go raibh maith agat, Cheann Comhairle. I welcome the opportunity to speak here today. Some Members are finding it a bit difficult to stay on topic, so I will be succinct. As outlined by other Members, we should not be accustomed to using accelerated passage, although it is certainly needed for this Bill. Some Members have suggested that we would have plenty of time in the next mandate, but we must remember that, in the past six months, there have been various amounts of instability and, at one point, some people pulled out of the Executive etc. As we do not know exactly where we will be at all times, we should take precautions. It is the right thing to do to ensure that the legislation is passed and is on the books. I look forward to the more extensive conversation that we will have and the discussion of the principles of the Bill. As things stand now, I am happy to accept accelerated passage.

John McCallister (UUP, South Down)

Broadly, the main argument for accelerating the Bill seems to be that we do not know how stable the next term will be. It is not a tremendous vote of confidence in the Fresh Start Agreement if we think that, after the election in May, there will be another one in the autumn or the following year. I have been a Member for almost nine years, and the Assembly has teetered on the edge for a long time. I am talking about elections. Elections have never actually come early. In fact, during this mandate, we put the election off for a year. So why the rush? I agree with Mr Nesbitt's point that this could easily be the first item of business in the new Assembly. What tends to happen is that there is a rush to legislate in the last few weeks and months of a mandate and then we spend the first two years of the next mandate debating motions. This would have been a good one to start off with.

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

I thank the Member for giving way. Is it not the case that, while individuals will be thinking of putting their name forward for election, proceeding with this legislation and using accelerated passage to do it will give clarity to anybody who wants to stand that they will be standing in a five-seater constituency come the following election? Is it not much better to send out the clear message that that is how it will be, so that there is no uncertainty around the constituencies being six-seaters and all of that? I understand why some people are howling for their seats this afternoon, but is it not much better to send out that clear message?

John McCallister (UUP, South Down)

The clear message that he is sending out is that we need to accelerate the passage of the Bill because we do not have the confidence that we will survive the next term. That is the message. I have consistently been against accelerated passage, where the Executive ask the House to agree to accelerate legislation with no good reason. There is ample time. Goodness knows, after 5 May, we will have five years to legislate for this. Mr Poots's argument is that we need to accelerate the Bill because it gives clarity to those seeking election, but it gives them no clarity beyond having to face party selection or the electorate in five years' time.

Jim Allister (Traditional Unionist Voice, North Antrim)

Will the Member give way?

John McCallister (UUP, South Down)

I will, certainly.

Jim Allister (Traditional Unionist Voice, North Antrim)

Does the Member not think that it is merely a fig leaf for those who are embarrassed by the greed and squander of the House, who want to be able to go to the electorate and say, "Oh, we have reduced the number of Departments and MLAs, aren't we doing well?"? Is it not just a fig leaf for that?

Mitchel McLaughlin (Speaker, South Antrim)

I ask the Member to resist getting sucked into talking about the Bill. We are talking about accelerated passage.

John McCallister (UUP, South Down)

Again, I am grateful for your guidance, Mr Speaker. At least Mr Allister's well-made point is on the record. I am opposed to accelerated passage. It is overstretching the Executive's power always to ask the Assembly to do it, and it is completely unnecessary.

Emma Little-Pengelly (DUP, Belfast South)

I am grateful for Members' contributions to the debate. I first reiterate that, at this late stage in the current mandate and given the need for the Bill to receive Royal Assent before the May 2016 Assembly election, there is no alternative to accelerated passage if the change is to be given effect before the end of the mandate. While the scope for any change to the Bill's provisions is extremely limited, the governing legislation specifies that the number of Members returned can only be reduced or increased by one. We acknowledge that it would have been preferable for the Bill to have been taken under the normal procedures for Assembly Bills; however, as I have explained, its introduction only became possible with the conclusion of the talks process and following extensive discussions and consultations on the matter.

The change outlined in the Assembly Members (Reduction of Numbers) Bill is the most significant reform of the Assembly since it was established and complements the proposed reduction in the number of Departments, legislation for which is also currently proceeding through the Assembly. The change will result in an Assembly containing a number of MLAs that is better aligned to the size of the Administration, the range of functions over which it has responsibility and public expectations of an efficient and cost-effective system of government.

I welcome the support of the Assembly and Executive Review Committee and the remarks of the Deputy Chair. The Member rightly outlines that the Bill is a very simple one. This is not a new issue; it has been extensively discussed and consulted on. I welcome Gordon Lyons's remarks. He echoed the Deputy Chair's words and reiterated the fact that this is a short, clear and simple Bill. I agree with him that this is something that people have asked for and want. It is something that people expect us to get on with and deliver.

Where Mr Attwood's comments are concerned, I will say that, absolutely, we agree that this should not be the norm. The reality of it, though, is that we have a choice to make, and that choice is very simple: we either move forward and continue to deliver or we simply do nothing in the remainder of this term. I do not think it is acceptable to people out there for us to simply sit back.

The matter that is the subject of the Bill has been scrutinised for many years. As I mentioned, it has been extensively consulted on by and discussed in the AERC. I do not agree with the Member that there is a suggestion that this will be the single thing that will create efficiency and effectiveness in the Chamber. There is no doubt that, to do that, there will need to be a range of measures put in place, but this is one of a range that I believe, and we in the Executive believe, is necessary to bring about better efficiency and effectiveness.

Where the Member's point on inclusion is concerned, I assure him that, despite this reduction, we will still be by far the most represented per head of the population across the UK. In fact, even with this reduction, we will have twice the level of representation per head of population than the likes of Scotland.

Although Mr Nesbitt asked why this could not have been done earlier and lamented the fact that it was not, let me say that the UUP did not agree it then. It did not even agree it in the Fresh Start Agreement. Therefore, if it was up to the UUP, the matter would still not be moved in the Chamber, and there would not be any agreement to move it in the Chamber. I think it is relatively ironic, therefore, that the comment has been made that it should have been brought to the Chamber sooner. I think that, for many people out there, we have talked about it, the AERC has talked about it, the Chamber has debated it, and I think people want to see us in the Chamber get on with it, work together and bring about these necessary changes.

Mike Nesbitt (UUP, Strangford)

Will the junior Minister give way?

Emma Little-Pengelly (DUP, Belfast South)

No, I am sorry, I would like to continue.

Where Mr Lyttle's comment is concerned, I reiterate that the Bill is very simple. I know that many of these issues will be looked at in the next stage, which is to commence shortly. I am sure he would agree with me that people want to see action, not endless discussion on this. I think the point would have more validity had this not gone through the AERC process already.

On Mr Hazzard's comments, I welcome the support and —

Chris Lyttle (Alliance, Belfast East)

Will the junior Minister give way?

Emma Little-Pengelly (DUP, Belfast South)

No, I am sorry, I would like to continue.

I welcome the words of support from various Members on the need for this to happen in this mandate.

Finally, turning to Mr McAllister's comments, I certainly do not agree with him that the case made here today is that there will potentially be political instability in the next mandate. Members have a job to scrutinise the legislation, and we have outlined that it is not ideal to use accelerated passage. However, I do not think it is acceptable for us to simply do nothing between now and the end of the mandate. We are here, we have a job to do, and we can get this matter processed before the end of the mandate.

It is very simple, it has been extensively discussed and there is absolute clarity in the legislation, which gives clarity for people making those choices as outlined by Mr Poots. We honestly believe that this is something that is wanted out on the ground, and we believe that people will simply say to us, "Get on with it. There is no need for further discussion. Get on with it, do it and deliver it". That is exactly what we are doing here today.

I thank Members once again for their contributions to the debate on the accelerated passage motion and for the questions and issues that they raised. As with other Stormont House Agreement matters, the conclusion of A Fresh Start has provided a basis for progressing this important legislation. The provision of good governance through a more streamlined Assembly will be the ultimate outcome of the Assembly Members (Reduction of Numbers) Bill. We must move now if we are to grasp the opportunity to have the matter settled before the end of the current Assembly mandate. That requires accelerated passage of the Assembly Members (Reduction of Numbers) Bill. Therefore, I ask the Assembly to approve the motion. Thank you.

Mitchel McLaughlin (Speaker, South Antrim)

Before we proceed with the Question, I remind Members that this motion requires cross-community support.

Question put. The Assembly divided:

Ayes 72; Noes 15

AYES

NATIONALIST:

Mr Attwood, Mr Boylan, Mr Dallat, Mr Diver, Mr Eastwood, Ms Hanna, Mr Hazzard, Mr G Kelly, Mr Lynch, Mr McAleer, Mr F McCann, Ms J McCann, Mr McCartney, Ms McCorley, Mr McCrossan, Mr McElduff, Ms McGahan, Mr McGlone, Mr M McGuinness, Mr McKay, Mrs McKevitt, Mr McKinney, Ms Maeve McLaughlin, Mr McMullan, Mr A Maginness, Mr Maskey, Mr Milne, Mr Murphy, Ms Ní Chuilín, Mr Ó hOisín, Mr Ó Muilleoir, Mr O'Dowd, Mrs O'Neill, Mr Rogers, Mr Sheehan

UNIONIST:

Mr Anderson, Ms P Bradley, Mrs Cameron, Mr Campbell, Mr Clarke, Mr Craig, Mr Douglas, Mr Dunne, Mr Easton, Mrs Foster, Mr Frew, Mr Girvan, Mr Givan, Mr Hamilton, Mr Hilditch, Mr Humphrey, Mr Irwin, Mr Lyons, Mr McCausland, Mr I McCrea, Mr D McIlveen, Miss M McIlveen, Mr McQuillan, Lord Morrow, Mr Newton, Mrs Pengelly, Mr Poots, Mr Ross, Mr Storey, Mr Weir

OTHER:

Mrs Cochrane, Mr Dickson, Mr Ford, Ms Lo, Mr Lunn, Mr Lyttle, Mr McCarthy

Tellers for the Ayes: Mr Anderson, Mr McQuillan

NOES

UNIONIST:

Mr Allen, Mr Allister, Mr Beggs, Mr Cochrane-Watson, Mr Cree, Mrs Dobson, Mr Gardiner, Mr Hussey, Mr Kennedy, Mr McCallister, Mr B McCrea, Mr McGimpsey, Mr Nesbitt, Ms Sugden

OTHER:

Mr Agnew

Tellers for the Noes: Mr Allister, Mr Nesbitt

Total Votes87Total Ayes72[82.8%]Nationalist Votes35Nationalist Ayes35[100.0%]Unionist Votes44Unionist Ayes30[68.2%]Other Votes8Other Ayes7[87.5%]

Question accordingly agreed to. Resolved (with cross-community support):

That the Assembly Members (Reduction of Numbers) Bill [NIA Bill 76/11-16] proceed under the accelerated passage procedure.

(Mr Principal Deputy Speaker [Mr Newton] in the Chair)

Oral Answers to Questions — Justice

Robin Newton (DUP, Belfast East)

Before we commence, I inform Members that questions 2 and 13 have been withdrawn.

Gerard Diver (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

1. Mr Diver asked the Minister of Justice what plans he has to review security arrangements at courthouses following the escape of a prisoner on 23 December 2015 in Foyle. (AQO 9435/11-16)

David Ford (Alliance, South Antrim)

As a result of the incident at Londonderry courthouse on 23 December, an independent review of security was commissioned by the Northern Ireland Courts and Tribunals Service. The review was carried out in consultation with the police and the Prison Service. Members will understand that it would not be appropriate for me to discuss the outcome of the review, but I can reassure the House that the security arrangements in place at courthouses are kept under review and subject to regular inspection.

Gerard Diver (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

It was an incident that received considerable media coverage. It has to be a matter of concern for the general public. The Minister said that he is bounded by the review and what is happening there, but, in general terms, are there lessons that can be learned from an incident of that nature?

David Ford (Alliance, South Antrim)

Mr Diver is certainly correct: there are always lessons to be learned from an incident such as that. They may relate to the physical fabric of courthouses and other places of concern, or there may be issues with the management of individuals coming into those places. In that case, the issue would seem to be slightly more to do with the second point than the first.

Gregory Campbell (DUP, East Londonderry)

Does the Minister agree that it is one thing for a high-profile escape such as that to occur but another for it to occur on television? That makes things even more difficult for him and the Prison Service. If a high-risk prisoner is going into Londonderry courthouse or any other court in Northern Ireland in future, can the Minister assure the public that they will not be put at risk as a result of that person being able to escape from lawful custody?

David Ford (Alliance, South Antrim)

I repeat to Mr Campbell that lessons will be learned from the issue. He referred to the Prison Service. There was no direct Prison Service involvement in that particular instance.

Raymond McCartney (Sinn Féin, Foyle)

Go raibh maith agat, a Phríomh-LeasCheann Comhairle. Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as na freagraí sin. Mr Diver outlined the concern that there is, particularly in Derry, but it is important that, whatever the outcome of the assessment is, we do not turn our courthouses into fortresses. The idea of them being open, and people seeing them as being open, should not be reversed.

David Ford (Alliance, South Antrim)

Mr McCartney makes a valid point. One of the key issues with justice is that it must be seen to be done. One of the advantages of some of our more modern courthouses is that, because they have been constructed in more recent times, it is easier to manage the security of prisoners arriving through somewhere different from a yard that is effectively all but open to public view, as is the case with Londonderry courthouse on Bishop Street. Clearly, that issue does not arise in some of our more modern facilities, such as Laganside or some of the smaller courthouses.

Danny Kennedy (UUP, Newry and Armagh)

Given the very unfortunate circumstances of that particular case, where a prisoner was seen to be legging it on national television, will the Minister assure us that the review that is being undertaken will cover all aspects of the work of the Prison Service, the Courts and Tribunals Service and the PSNI?

David Ford (Alliance, South Antrim)

Yes, I can certainly give that assurance to the House, not just to Mr Kennedy. I should have dealt with that point when Mr Campbell asked his question. The television coverage did not make any difference to the unfortunate nature of the incident. It merely made it more public. The lessons are being learned and would be learned whether or not we had the benefit of a UTV camera in Bishop Street that day.

Barry McElduff (Sinn Féin, West Tyrone)

3. Mr McElduff asked the Minister of Justice for his assessment of the contribution of Omagh Safer Streets volunteers towards the overall objective of improving community safety in the town. (AQO 9437/11-16)

David Ford (Alliance, South Antrim)

The Omagh Street Safe project is one of a number of initiatives delivered by Fermanagh and Omagh Policing and Community Safety Partnership that contributes to improving community safety in the night-time economy in Omagh town centre.

Violent behaviour in and around pubs and clubs on weekend nights presents a significant problem for public health, criminal justice and town centre management. There are many factors that influence offending in the night-time economy, such as substance misuse, overcrowding, permissive social environments and competition for limited fast food and transport facilities. That leads to difficulties in isolating any one factor that impacts on improving community safety. It is clear that interventions facilitated by the Omagh Street Safe volunteers, such as the offering of advice, support and a place of safety for the most vulnerable, play an important role in diffusing potentially dangerous and serious situations.

The Omagh Street Safe project and similar schemes, such as those run by Street Pastors, are excellent examples of local people identifying a local problem, devising a solution that is valued by its beneficiaries and actively participating in its implementation and delivery.

Barry McElduff (Sinn Féin, West Tyrone)

Go raibh maith agat, a Phríomh-LeasCheann Comhairle. I thank the Minister for his answer and for his personal interest, and that of his Department, in the Omagh Safer Streets project.

Will he detail the extent and type of support, financial and otherwise, that his Department will provide in 2016-17? I take this opportunity to commend those civic-minded volunteers who, week in, week out, show such commitment in Omagh. Their efforts have contributed to the saving of lives.

David Ford (Alliance, South Antrim)

I endorse Mr McElduff's praise for the volunteers who carry out such work. He, as an MLA for West Tyrone, will praise the volunteers in Omagh, and I will praise all the volunteers in similar schemes in every part of Northern Ireland.

He spoke specifically about the issue of funding, and Members will be well aware of the difficult funding situation that we are in. Nonetheless, I am happy to say that we were able to ensure that, for the remainder of this financial year, the relevant PCSP budgets have been restored and that we are doing our best to ensure that the front-line work of PCSPs is protected to a degree next year, and will receive less of a reduction than expenditure within the core Department.

One of the other key issues is the assets recovery community scheme, which has contributed to some of those projects. For example, it has provided equipment for the volunteers to identify themselves and implemented a variety of small measures that has meant that assets that have been recovered have been put to good use in helping to fight that kind of crime and antisocial behaviour.

Daniel McCrossan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, West Tyrone)

To follow what Mr McElduff said, I too commend the great efforts made by the volunteers in Omagh and in the many other areas across Northern Ireland. They contribute a great deal of time and effort to ensure that the public are safe. What plans are there in the Minister's Department to roll out the scheme in other areas across west Tyrone and throughout the North?

David Ford (Alliance, South Antrim)

I welcome Mr McCrossan to his first justice Question Time. It is not for my Department to have plans to roll out the scheme, because it was devised locally, supported by the PCSP and funded in part by PCSP funding and assets funding from my Department. All that I can do is to encourage local people to find local solutions to problems such as this, but I certainly will do that because it is one of those issues where good work that is being done in a number of schemes could be replicated in other parts of Northern Ireland. I am keen to see the Department supporting it as best it can.

Ross Hussey (UUP, West Tyrone)

I thank the Minister for his responses so far. Like the Minister, I welcome all the work done by such volunteers. In Omagh in particular, we have concerns, and the people there do an excellent job. What training are the volunteers provided with through PCSPs and perhaps other agencies?

David Ford (Alliance, South Antrim)

The answer to that is a bit like the one I just gave to Mr McCrossan. How the individual schemes are run is an issue for each scheme, with support from the local PCSP. The Department does not prescribe what should happen.

One of the key issues that we are able to address through the PCSP managers' network is the sharing of good practice to ensure that people learn of how other people have run schemes if they are intent on setting up a scheme such as that run by Omagh Safer Streets and that we use the expertise that is being built up in different parts of Northern Ireland for the benefit of every part. I do not tell people what they must do, but my Department encourages people to learn best practice from each other, which is what is contributing to such successes.

Rosaleen McCorley (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

Go raibh maith agat, a Phríomh-LeasCheann Comhairle. Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as a fhreagraí go dtí seo. I thank the Minister for his answers thus far. Will the Minister outline the role of the PCSPs in bringing together a strategy to tackle rural crime?

David Ford (Alliance, South Antrim)

I am slightly lost, Mr Principal Deputy Speaker; there are questions on rural crime later in the listing. I am not sure whether I ought to go into rural crime at this point in the context of the work that is being done in relation to the night-time economy in our town centres.

Seán Rogers (Social Democratic and Labour Party, South Down)

4. Mr Rogers asked the Minister of Justice what strategy his Department has in place to address crime in rural areas such as South Down. (AQO 9438/11-16)

David Ford (Alliance, South Antrim)

My Department's community safety strategy contains a commitment to make Northern Ireland, including rural communities, safer by reducing the opportunities to commit crime. The Department of Justice works closely with the PSNI, NFU Mutual, the Ulster Farmers’ Union and DARD through the rural crime partnership to deliver on that commitment.

The partnership receives detailed quarterly updates from the PSNI’s statistics branch on levels of agricultural and rural crime. That allows key stakeholders to continue to monitor crime trends and to allocate resources accordingly. I welcome the fact that agricultural-based crime has shown an overall downward trend since 2010-11, when 937 offences were recorded. At 626, the level in the 12 months from October 2014 to September 2015 is the lowest recorded.

The work of the rural crime partnership has resulted in the development and delivery of a range of initiatives that aim to tackle rural crime — for example, a funding package to encourage farmers in theft hotspots to fit security devices to their machinery. We will soon pilot, with Armagh City, Banbridge and Craigavon PCSP, the use of a forensic marking scheme to help to prevent and detect theft from farms. I understand that the Newry, Mourne and Down PCSP has undertaken initiatives to address rural and agricultural crime, including the delivery of a freeze-branding initiative aimed at tackling livestock theft, the distribution of GuardCams to farms and homes in rural and isolated areas and trailer marking.

Seán Rogers (Social Democratic and Labour Party, South Down)

I thank the Minister for his answer; it is very welcome. In addition to affecting the livelihood of the person concerned, crime, particularly in rural areas, can create a terrible sense of fear in the community. What is being done to address that fear? What is being done to showcase instances when police are successful in tackling rural crime?

David Ford (Alliance, South Antrim)

I appreciate Mr Rogers's point that, sometimes, the fear of crime is significantly more to be concerned about than the actual likelihood of it. The Member asked what was being done to highlight successes by the police: that is, to some extent, an issue for the Police Service. I certainly know that most local papers seem to have fairly good coverage of the courts in their area when we get to the point of convictions. It is also important to highlight the work being done generally under the community safety strategy on community safety issues and fighting crime and fear of crime at that low level, to ensure that people do not get unnecessarily fearful, whilst encouraging them to take appropriate steps to ensure that they protect themselves and their property as appropriate. As I said, although there have been a number of incidents, we have seen a significant reduction, and I believe that that has been brought about by the good partnership working that we have seen across a number of agencies.

Jo-Anne Dobson (UUP, Upper Bann)

I am a representative of the neighbouring rural constituency of Upper Bann. Is the Minister aware of the increase in crime along the A1 dual carriageway corridor? What strategy is being employed to address what is a very long-term problem for people living in South Down and Upper Bann?

David Ford (Alliance, South Antrim)

I thought that, when I included the Armagh, Banbridge and Craigavon PCSP, I would have covered at least something for Members for Upper Bann. The reality is that we will at times see hotspots in criminal activity, and those can come and go at relatively short notice. The specific issue of how we address that kind of criminal activity is a matter for the Chief Constable and not for the Minister of Justice. The Department's responsibility is to support the efforts aimed at fighting crime and the fear of crime of bodies like the PCSPs and others that they work in partnership with. I have visited most of the PCSPs over the last few years and have seen a variety of work going on. A lot of that is on the importance of prevention, as opposed to dealing with crime after it has happened.

Bronwyn McGahan (Sinn Féin, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

5. Ms McGahan asked the Minister of Justice how he plans to address the failure to meet the target of 90% implementation of the youth justice review’s recommendations by 2014. (AQO 9439/11-16)

David Ford (Alliance, South Antrim)

The CJINI report recognises the significant progress that has been made in recent years and the challenging operational environment in which implementation has been achieved. However, it is clear from CJINI's assessment and my Department's assessment that more needs to be done, which is why, in May 2015, I commissioned a scoping study of children in or on the fringes of the youth justice system. That work is being undertaken with the aim of making improvements across the whole system to deliver greater benefits for children and improving their long-term outcomes. It will build on many of the procedural and structural changes already achieved through implementation of the review recommendations, and CJINI has welcomed the scoping study as a means of furthering progress on youth justice issues.

There will be a particular focus on the complex, cross-cutting recommendations where cooperation and partnership across organisations and Departments are necessary. Commitment from within and beyond the criminal justice system has been evident from the start of the scoping study, with key stakeholders being fully engaged at steering group and subgroup level. I am, therefore, confident that we can achieve significant progress in delivering on the remaining youth justice review recommendations, either directly or indirectly, through that work.

Bronwyn McGahan (Sinn Féin, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

Go raibh maith agat. I thank the Minister for his response. Does he find it most concerning that Criminal Justice Inspection has stated that there has been a loss of momentum in the implementation of the recommendations of the youth justice review?

David Ford (Alliance, South Antrim)

Ms McGahan correctly highlights the concern, which would be the case if there had been a complete loss of focus on those issues as opposed to a potential slight loss of momentum. Part of that is due to looking at some issues in rather greater detail than had been anticipated and taking a slightly longer timescale — for example, with statutory time limits, the legislation was more complex than was initially believed, so it was necessary to take longer to get it right. A degree of progress is being made, despite all the pressures that the Department is under. Those will come through in the coming months.

Alban Maginness (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast North)

I thank the Minister for his answers. It is a problem that the implementation of the youth justice review has really slowed down. I agree with the last Member that there seems to be a loss of momentum, with 40% of the recommendations outstanding. One aspect is the youth engagement clinics. Contained in that there was at least an attempt to have legal representation for young people at the clinics, which has not been achieved so far. It is a serious situation when somebody goes through a clinic without legal representation and then gets what is effectively a criminal record.

Robin Newton (DUP, Belfast East)

I ask the Member to come to his question.

Alban Maginness (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast North)

Will the Minister apply his mind to guaranteeing that such representation would be achieved for young people?

David Ford (Alliance, South Antrim)

I will refer briefly to one point that was made. Mr Maginness referred to 40% of the recommendations not being implemented: it is the case, of course, that some recommendations require agreement beyond the criminal justice system, including agreement in the Assembly. If Mr Maginness could assist me in persuading certain Members of the House to agree to raise the minimum age of criminal responsibility, it would help us to make progress.

The Member makes a perfectly valid point about legal advice and the youth engagement clinics, on which concerns have been expressed. At every stage of the process, efforts are made to ensure that children and young people are made aware of the position, including the implications of decisions that they take, and to ensure that it is done in a way that uses child-appropriate language. Exactly how that is best done is still under consideration.

Ian Milne (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

6. Mr Milne asked the Minister of Justice what communication he has had with the Criminal Justice Inspection since the conclusion of its report into Maghaberry prison in January 2016. (AQO 9440/11-16)

David Ford (Alliance, South Antrim)

Given the importance of the reinspection of Maghaberry prison, I spoke to the chief inspector of Criminal Justice Inspection Northern Ireland during that process. As Members will be aware, the reinspection was completed on 15 January. I have not spoken to Mr McGuigan since then, and I await publication of the report.

Ian Milne (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

Go raibh maith agat, a Phríomh-LeasCheann Comhairle. Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as a fhreagraí go dtí seo. I thank the Minister for his answer thus far. I am disappointed that there has been no contact since the reinspection on 15 January. At a recent Justice Committee meeting, the director general stated that tensions between her office and senior management in Maghaberry had led to a situation in which instructions were ignored and, as a result, the prison regime was disrupted. Does the Minister agree with the director of prisons?

David Ford (Alliance, South Antrim)

On Mr Milne's first point, I spoke to Mr McGuigan while the second week of the inspection was under way, and I am not sure that the fact that I have not spoken to him in the10 days since is particularly a fault of mine, given the expectation that it will take in the region of three to four weeks for his report to come out. The Member highlighted the director general's reference to relationships between prison headquarters and the previous senior management team in Maghaberry, and that is clearly an issue of concern. That is one of the issues that was addressed by the refreshment of the senior management team.

Adrian Cochrane-Watson (UUP, South Antrim)

Can the Minister update the House on when he last met the Prison Officers' Association (POA) about staffing at Maghaberry? Does the Minister consider that Maghaberry provides a safe working environment for staff?

David Ford (Alliance, South Antrim)

I cannot, off the top of my head, tell the House when I last met the Prison Officers' Association to discuss Maghaberry, but I can say that it was shortly after it last requested to meet me to discuss such issues. The Member asked whether Maghaberry was providing a safe environment: I certainly believe from the conversations that I have had with a number of people that the situation in Maghaberry is better than it was. If I said anything more than that, I would come perilously close to second-guessing the official report of Criminal Justice Inspection, and I think that the House and I should wait for that to come out in the next two or three weeks.

Patsy McGlone (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Mid Ulster)

Go raibh maith agat, a Phríomh-LeasCheann Comhairle. A recent evidence session at the Justice Committee heard that there appeared to be major deficits in the communication between senior management and members of the Prison Officers' Association. Will the Minister advise whether he or his office has taken any measures to improve that? On the basis of what we heard, there seemed to be very limited, if any, communication, particularly on the previous report on the prison.

David Ford (Alliance, South Antrim)

Mr McGlone raises an interesting point, but the only bit that I can think of relating to the POA and the previous report is the fact that the three POA representatives who came to the Committee admitted that they had not read it, which made it somewhat difficult for them to discuss its contents. I do not meet any of the unions that represent staff in the justice family or, indeed, bodies like the Police Federation unless I am requested to, and I have not had a request from the POA. My understanding is that there will be regular, ongoing discussions in each of the three institutions between the POA and management staff, as is appropriate to deal with issues of concern there, but it is difficult for the Minister to know exactly what the state of discussions with the POA is when he is not invited or requested to meet it.

Stewart Dickson (Alliance, East Antrim)

Thank you, Minister, for the answers that you have given to us. Minister, there are those who might say in the light of and in the wake of the recent report that, since the devolution of policing and justice, prison reform has not worked or has been particularly slow. What assurance can you give the House that prison reform is on track and that you and your Department can deliver a prison service that is fit for today and for the future?

David Ford (Alliance, South Antrim)

Looking back at what has been achieved since the prison review team reported, we can report significant achievements, notwithstanding the fact that one report on Maghaberry in May last year clearly highlighted issues of concern. We have seen major changes through the refreshing and retraining of staff and the work that transformed Hydebank Wood Young Offenders Centre into Hydebank Wood College, the first such transformation anywhere in the UK. There has been a very positive inspection of Magilligan prison. We have seen work done on step-down houses for men, with the reopening of Burren House on the Crumlin Road, and for women on the Hydebank site. We have detailed plans, subject to capital expenditure being available from DFP. A significant effort is being made in education in consultation with Belfast Met and North West Regional College. There are very significant achievements.

Just this morning, I visited Magilligan prison, where I saw good work being done that is being used to educate young people from schools in the north-west area on the Holocaust. Wednesday is Holocaust Memorial Day. Prisoners, in their own time, did paintings and various bits of artwork. In one case, an old Nissen hut had the names of 600 people who died in concentration camps highlighted by prisoners putting their own effort and time into making that a suitable exhibition for training young people. It is an example of the good work that is being done, notwithstanding the challenges identified at Maghaberry last May.

Daithí McKay (Sinn Féin, North Antrim)

7. Mr McKay asked the Minister of Justice to outline the outcome of the tender process for services to the visitors’ centre in Maghaberry prison. (AQO 9441/11-16)

David Ford (Alliance, South Antrim)

The contract for the provision of visitors' centres at Maghaberry, Magilligan and Hydebank Wood was awarded to PeoplePlus, and the contract commenced on 1 December last. As was the case with previous visitors' centre contracts, this tender was issued as an open bid facilitated by the Central Procurement Directorate (CPD) of DFP. This was tendered in line with the Public Contracts Regulations 2015. The bids received were evaluated by an independent panel in accordance with the advertised criteria. The most economically advantageous tender was successful.

Daithí McKay (Sinn Féin, North Antrim)

Go raibh maith agat, a Phríomh-LeasCheann Comhairle. Can the Minister ensure that a narrow interpretation of the tender specification is not taken? That has led to a reduction in services that can be easily restored, especially in regard to the car park and visitors' centre.

David Ford (Alliance, South Antrim)

Given the current financial difficulties, there was a reduction in the services that were included in the tender, which has made some difference to the services that are provided. The Prison Service, like other aspects of the Department of Justice, is under significant financial pressure. I think that Mr McKay is hinting at some of what might have been described as the extra services provided by Quaker Service and NIACRO, which were, in a sense, voluntary activity on the part of their staff and volunteers that took the contract into a better place. Unfortunately, the rules that we are required to procure services under do not easily allow for dealing with those extra points.

Dolores Kelly (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Upper Bann)

Were any social responsibility criteria added to the recruitment and selection procedure for eligibility for application?

David Ford (Alliance, South Antrim)

I am not sure what Mrs Kelly means by social factors, though I can guess. My understanding is that CPD carried out its work in accordance with the normal arrangements under which DFP operates. I am well aware of the concerns that have been expressed by a number of people that this has perhaps seen a diminution of the social care aspects — if that is the best way to put it — of the work that was done. It was an indication of the excellent service that was provided by Quaker Service, in particular, for very many years. It is an issue that I will address when I meet Quaker Service representatives in the near future and discuss with them the ongoing services that they will continue to provide to aspects of our custodial services.

Ian McCrea (DUP, Mid Ulster)

8. Mr I McCrea asked the Minister of Justice for an update on the Community Safety College. (AQO 9442/11-16)

David Ford (Alliance, South Antrim)

A training needs assessment last year identified a significant reduction in the projected number of training days, brought about primarily by budget reductions across the three services and the resulting impact on recruitment. In November 2015, the programme board delivered a revised outline business case that considers a range of options for the future delivery of service training, including basing some or all services training at Desertcreat. It includes a full economic appraisal of the shortlisted options and identifies a preferred strategic option.

The outline business case has been signed off by the accounting officers of the three services and the two Departments and is awaiting the Health Minister's approval to add to my own. I hope that we will shortly be in a position to circulate the business case to Executive colleagues to enable them to take an informed strategic decision on the way forward for this project.

Robin Newton (DUP, Belfast East)

We have time for just a quick supplementary.

Ian McCrea (DUP, Mid Ulster)

Thank you, and I thank the Minister for his update. If the Minister gets the necessary approvals from the Health Minister, will he outline a timeline for this process? Whilst I am not asking him to look into a crystal ball, can he foresee any possible difficulties?

David Ford (Alliance, South Antrim)

I will be very brief, Mr Principal Deputy Speaker. I think that projects of this size always have possible difficulties, but, at this stage, the issue is for the Health Minister's approval to be given so that we can jointly present a paper to the Executive, which will then take decisions.

Robin Newton (DUP, Belfast East)

That ends the period for listed questions. We now move to 15 minutes of topical questions.

Pam Cameron (DUP, South Antrim)

T1. Mrs Cameron asked the Minister of Justice when the report on the fire at Erne House at Maghaberry will be published. (AQT 3361/11-16)

David Ford (Alliance, South Antrim)

The report on the fire at Erne House is near to completion, and it is something that I expect to see published in the near future. I have had a brief and informal meeting with the two governors from the National Offender Management Service (NOMS) who carried it out. I am assuming that the final report will be presented within the next few weeks, so it will then become possible to look at the full implications of that fire and the lessons to be learned from it.

Pam Cameron (DUP, South Antrim)

I thank the Minister for his answer so far. Can he possibly outline why it took so long for action to be taken to regain control of the block following the fire?

David Ford (Alliance, South Antrim)

Mrs Cameron is now really asking me to prejudge the outcome of a report that is being commissioned independently to ensure that neither the Prison Service nor the Minister gives their opinion in advance of that independent result coming through.

William Irwin (DUP, Newry and Armagh)

T2. Mr Irwin asked the Minister of Justice, following the approval for the National Crime Agency (NCA) to operate in Northern Ireland, to update the House on the NCA’s work in his constituency of Newry and Armagh, particularly any successes against those involved in fuel laundering and other tax-evading crimes. (AQT 3362/11-16)

David Ford (Alliance, South Antrim)

Sometimes it is not possible to have in front of you all the statistics that Members would wish at a particular point. If Mr Irwin has particular questions, I will happily see that they are answered in writing later. There is no doubt that the National Crime Agency is very active in Northern Ireland. It is supporting the activities of the Police Service of Northern Ireland, and it also, of course, has responsibility for assets recovery, which was not previously the case. It will be falling to it to carry out that kind of work in conjunction with not just the Police Service but some of the other UK-wide agencies.

The National Crime Agency will also be playing a role in the cross-border task force, which was recently established. The NCA, Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs, the Revenue Commissioners, the Criminal Assets Bureau in the Republic and the Police Service will be key agents in working together in that fight against organised crime across the island.

William Irwin (DUP, Newry and Armagh)

I thank the Minister for his reply. Will he accept that the perception in the wider community is that many of these criminal gangs can act with seeming immunity from the law?

David Ford (Alliance, South Antrim)

I certainly accept that there is a perception to that effect. I think that part of that perception may have been the gap before we had the National Crime Agency fully operational in Northern Ireland, but now that it is fully operational, I hope that we will see significant work stepping forward. I hope to be meeting the new director general in the near future, and I will certainly be talking to her about the necessity of ensuring that we get the best possible use of the assets that the NCA holds in Belfast to assist a range of other bodies, North and South, against the kinds of crimes that Mr Irwin is highlighting, some of which blanket his constituency in particular.

Roy Beggs (UUP, East Antrim)

T3. Mr Beggs asked the Minister of Justice whether he is aware of the findings of the recent PSNI scoping exercises into the long-term plans for police stations in Northern Ireland, particularly in the East Antrim constituency. (AQT 3363/11-16)

David Ford (Alliance, South Antrim)

The specific issue of the use of police stations, which Mr Beggs highlights, is an issue for the Chief Constable. The potential disposal of unused police assets also falls to the Policing Board. None of it falls to the Minister of Justice.

Roy Beggs (UUP, East Antrim)

Does the Minister agree with me that, in order for justice to be administered and delivered, it is important that there is a police presence in a large town such as Carrickfergus, with a population of over 40,000 people, so that it does not suffer from having to be policed from neighbouring districts such as Larne or Ballymena, and that, particularly when others are trying to enforce a form of policing, it is important that the PSNI has a presence in Carrickfergus?

David Ford (Alliance, South Antrim)

There are two different points there. It is certainly important that there is a police presence in every part of Northern Ireland. That does not necessarily mean having a building in every part of Northern Ireland. It is important that the police manage the resources they have in a way that ensures that front-line policing is protected, rather than preserving architecture across the region.

He refers to those who claim a right to police within the community, wherever they happen to be, and he is absolutely right. There can be no place for self-appointed thugs who pretend as if they are acting in the interests of the community when they are largely lining their own pockets. We need to ensure that that does not happen anywhere in Northern Ireland.

Robin Newton (DUP, Belfast East)

Mr Jonathan Craig is not in his place.

Ian McCrea (DUP, Mid Ulster)

T5. Mr I McCrea asked the Minister of Justice to state the cost to the public purse of providing interpreters in police stations for people who do not speak English as their first language. (AQT 3365/11-16)

David Ford (Alliance, South Antrim)

Again, whilst Ministers are expected to know quite a lot for topical Question Time, I do not think that it is realistic to expect that questions like that can be discussed. He talks about the cost of interpreters, and there are, of course, costs in the justice system for police station interviews and potential court proceedings. Those issues are determined on the basis of the individual's need. I do not carry around in the top of my head the figures for the total cost last year.

Ian McCrea (DUP, Mid Ulster)

Given that other countries across Europe ensure that, if a person is in that country and does not have the language of that country as their first language, they have to pay for the provision of an interpreter and, indeed, bring one with them, does the Minister have a view on whether that should be considered for Northern Ireland? Should people who require an interpreter pay to provide one?

David Ford (Alliance, South Antrim)

I am not sure whether Mr McCrea has had experience of having to pay for a translation into French, German, Spanish or something himself. I am not aware of the full pattern across Europe. Certainly, the pattern of charging for interpretation services is not common to the justice system or, indeed, other services like the health service in the United Kingdom. It is not something that I have been considering to date.

Ross Hussey (UUP, West Tyrone)

T6. Mr Hussey asked the Minister of Justice, following the earlier question about the reduction in agricultural crime, to state what discussions he has had with his counterpart in the Republic of Ireland in relation to cross-border agricultural crime. (AQT 3366/11-16)

David Ford (Alliance, South Antrim)

When I meet the Irish Justice Minister, which I do formally on a twice yearly basis, we discuss a range of issues, more around the issue of organised crime and certain aspects of the way in which we can better learn lessons. For example, the last meeting had a significant presentation from those running victims' services, North and South. We then, under "any other business", discuss a range of key topical issues. Something like agricultural crime might well feature in that. I do not think that it has formally featured in the agenda at any point, though it is, of course, an issue that is being addressed by the new cross-border task force. I have passed on a request from the Minister of Agriculture that the DARD veterinary service be added to the operational group because it clearly is an issue, alongside things like food standards, food safety and environmental crime. We need to ensure that that work is done, covering not just the pure criminal justice system but a range of other issues.

Ross Hussey (UUP, West Tyrone)

I thank the Minister for his response so far. In relation to organised crime, it is believed that, within the Clogher valley area, which obviously covers my area of West Tyrone and goes into Fermanagh and South Tyrone, quite a few agricultural vehicles have been stolen to order. Indeed, that goes as far as even Castlederg. Will you, in future, try to ensure that that issue is raised with your counterpart and, I accept, also with the National Crime Agency?

David Ford (Alliance, South Antrim)

It is certainly an issue that can be highlighted if it is a key issue for ministerial attention. It is certainly an issue for operational attention.

I am glad that Mr Hussey recognises that particular point. It is also an issue where some of the work we have done, for example in promoting tracking devices in agricultural machinery, has helped fight that kind of crime, and it is not an issue that is solely confined to the Clogher Valley. Unfortunately, we have had, at times, reports of tractors stolen in County Antrim appearing in County Cork. So, there are major challenges, but part of it is around the prevention route just as much as the enforcement route. Enforcement applies within Northern Ireland and cross-border.

Peter Weir (DUP, North Down)

T7. Mr Weir asked the Minister of Justice what progress has been made on resolving the legal aid dispute between the Department and the legal profession. (AQT 3367/11-16)

David Ford (Alliance, South Antrim)

I am not quite sure about the precise meaning of the word "dispute". In response to Mr Weir's question, he will be aware as, I think, most of the House will be aware, that the current position is that the High Court found largely in favour of the Department of Justice, apart from one minor fee for solicitors and a slight procedural issue under which Mr Justice Maguire did not strike down the rules that were made. There is an appeal against the judicial review by the Bar Council, and we will have to await the outcome of that. However, we will continue with the position that, even after these reductions, legal aid payments in Northern Ireland remain significantly more generous for barristers and solicitors than the payments in England and Wales, the most comparable jurisdiction.

Peter Weir (DUP, North Down)

I thank the Minister for his response. Can he outline his assessment of the level of disruption that has been caused as a result of the dispute in terms of judicial proceedings?

David Ford (Alliance, South Antrim)

I believe that, at the moment, there are in the region of 800 cases awaiting committal to the Crown Court, given the strike action that is being carried out by barristers. We will see exactly how that is resolved when barristers are willing to return to work. I know that the Lord Chief Justice has made significant preparation, which is being discussed with officials in the Courts and Tribunals Service, as to how cases will be listed when that is the case. I believe that those who talk about their concerns for vulnerable witnesses, for those who had offences committed against them and, in some cases, for vulnerable defendants, have an obligation to carry out their work. The Department has made it clear that, in terms of the trial preparation fee, any payments made will be backdated to ensure that there is no reason why individuals should not return to work immediately. We should see that carried through if people wish to see justice being done.

Chris Lyttle (Alliance, Belfast East)

T8. Mr Lyttle asked the Minister of Justice for an update on the work of the assets recovery scheme fund. (AQT 3368/11-16)

David Ford (Alliance, South Antrim)

Since we obtained the 50% of assets recovered for the Department of Justice after a slight disagreement with the Home Office shortly after devolution, we have distributed in the region of £3 million to a variety of different schemes aimed at fighting crime and the fear of crime. Many of those have been funded through partnership with PCSPs in a range of areas. We have also seen work done by the Youth Justice Agency, the Probation Service, and some of my direct responsibility areas. All of those are key issues that have ensured that the £3million has been put to extremely good use in fighting crime, fighting the fear of crime and antisocial behaviour, and making Northern Ireland a safer place.

Robin Newton (DUP, Belfast East)

We have time for a brief supplementary question and a brief reply.

Chris Lyttle (Alliance, Belfast East)

I thank the Minister for his answer. I welcome that £3 million has been taken out of the hands of criminals and returned to the community. Would the Minister encourage community groups to apply for the fund via the local PCSPs before the deadline of 29 January 2016?

David Ford (Alliance, South Antrim)

I think I can be very brief. I will just repeat the date — 29 January is the date for groups to apply through their PCSPs. If we can continue to take assets off criminals as successfully as we have done, then I hope we will have a significant amount of money in the fund for the next financial year.

Stewart Dickson (Alliance, East Antrim)

T9. Mr Dickson asked the Minister of Justice, given correspondence that he will have received from staff in the Legal Services Agency about the voluntary exit scheme, whether he has taken that matter up with the Minister of Finance and Personnel to ensure that what appears to be an anomaly will be addressed. (AQT 3369/11-16)

David Ford (Alliance, South Antrim)

My officials have certainly discussed the issue with officials in DFP. I have not spoken directly to the Minister but, since he is sitting across the Chamber now, he may know about it. It is unfortunate that staff in the Legal Services Agency were not civil servants at the date when the Civil Service voluntary early retirement scheme came into place and were civil servants by the time the opportunities came through for other public bodies. That is extremely unfortunate. I am told that those are DFP rules, but I am continuing to press on it.

Oral Answers to Questions — Finance and Personnel

Robin Newton (DUP, Belfast East)

We will now move to questions to the Minister of Finance and Personnel. I believe that this is the Minister's first Question Time. I congratulate him on his appointment. I am sure that Members will recognise that it is his first Question Time. I must inform the House that question 10 has been withdrawn.

Basil McCrea (NI21, Lagan Valley)

1. Mr B McCrea asked the Minister of Finance and Personnel to outline his Department's policy for determining whether fixed charge receivers are responsible for paying rates once appointed. (AQO 9450/11-16)

Basil McCrea (NI21, Lagan Valley)

It is an honour to ask the first question to the new Minister.

Mervyn Storey (DUP, North Antrim)

I thank the Member for his question. When a fixed charge receiver is appointed, they take control of the management of a property, usually when a borrower has defaulted on payment. The fixed charge receiver acts as an agent of the borrower, only being liable for the rates when a property that they are managing is, first of all, occupied, generates rent payable to the receiver, or, where one of the following applies: non-domestic properties where the net annual value is below £1,590 and the frequency of rent payments is less than quarterly; and domestic properties where the capital value is under £150,000.

Basil McCrea (NI21, Lagan Valley)

Earlier today, I spoke to officials from Land and Property Services, and they informed me that perhaps two cases a week are coming before them, and almost all of those — 75% — end up in bankruptcy or payment. There seems to be no way to reach an accommodation that would help people to retain their businesses. I am quite sure that the Minister will join with me in wishing that we could find some way of reducing the cost to the public exchequer but also making sure that we have a viable property sector.

Mervyn Storey (DUP, North Antrim)

I thank the Member for his supplementary question. My predecessor and my colleague in DETI have had discussions with the banks around a number of issues. I intend to meet my colleague the Minister of Enterprise, Trade and Investment very soon, and it is our intention to meet the banks. The concern that the Member raised is something that I would be quite happy to pursue with them. I am also quite happy to meet the Member to discuss the issue further because I am aware of the interest that he has taken on this and a number of other related issues.

John McCallister (UUP, South Down)

2. Mr McCallister asked the Minister of Finance and Personnel for an update on the findings of the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development’s strategic review of public-sector reform in Northern Ireland. (AQO 9451/11-16)

Mervyn Storey (DUP, North Antrim)

The OECD conducted a benchmarking analysis of how our public sector compares against international settings, assessed against three overarching themes: improving strategic approaches; improving engagement with people; and improving operational delivery. It also made recommendations on six targeted core studies. Those were: improving educational outcomes for looked-after children; problem-solving justice; governance of public procurement; Delivering Social Change framework; health service commissioning; and streamlining regulation. I, along with my officials, am currently considering the draft report.

John McCallister (UUP, South Down)

I am grateful to the Minister for his reply. I am concerned about the delay. It was originally said that the report would be published last November; we are now in late January, and that has not happened. Is he concerned that the Executive's failure to build in a wider reform of the public sector is making any of those things very difficult to deliver? In the voluntary exit scheme, he is probably going to take out of the public sector only about 10,000 people as opposed to the targeted 20,000. Across sectors like health and education, getting the reforms that he needs and linking those in to the report is proving very difficult. Is that a major concern for the Minister?

Mervyn Storey (DUP, North Antrim)

I thank the Member for his supplementary question. I want to see progress made in relation to the issue. However, the finalisation of the report does not mean acceptance of all its recommendations.

I have to seek the views of my ministerial colleagues. The views of Ministers will be sought and action plans developed for those areas agreed by them. We are trying to assess the report. I will then share the report with my ministerial colleagues. It is then my intention to sign off on the report and make it public.

Gordon Dunne (DUP, North Down)

I thank the Minister for his answers, and we wish him well in his new post. As has been mentioned, we are very much aware of the voluntary exit scheme that has been in place for some time for the Civil Service. Will the Minister give us an update on the progress of reform in the public sector to date, and the implications of that?

Mervyn Storey (DUP, North Antrim)

I thank the Member for his supplementary question. The voluntary exit scheme has played an important role in ensuring that we are able to get to the end of this financial year in a better financial place than others had anticipated. By the end of January, over 2,410 Northern Ireland Civil Service staff will have left under the voluntary exit scheme, with a further 404 due to leave at the end of March. Overall, those exits will deliver a pay bill saving of around £24 million in this financial year.

Although the scheme was initially intended to end in March 2016, six Departments — DFP, DE, DCAL, the Department of Justice, DSD and DRD — have confirmed that they wish to facilitate a limited number of exits and make around 220 offers through a fifth and final tranche. Those who are selected for tranche 5 will receive an offer no later than the end of February, with exits occurring no later than the end of June. Applicants who do not receive an offer by the end of February will receive notification that they have not been selected. That will signal the formal closure of the VES. There are no plans to introduce a further scheme.

I conclude by saying that, when all five tranches are completed, the scheme should generate approximately £86 million in annual pay bill savings at a cost, in the form of compensation, of around £90 million.

Dolores Kelly (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Upper Bann)

3. Mrs D Kelly asked the Minister of Finance and Personnel whether provisions will be made in the 2016-17 Budget for the release of moneys to settle equal pay claims for civilian staff in the Department of Justice. (AQO 9452/11-16)

Jim Allister (Traditional Unionist Voice, North Antrim)

6. Mr Allister asked the Minister of Finance and Personnel why there has been no progress on the Civil Service equal pay claim for PSNI, Northern Ireland Office and Department of Justice staff. (AQO 9455/11-16)

Mervyn Storey (DUP, North Antrim)

With your permission, Mr Principal Deputy Speaker, I will answer questions 3 and 6 together.

The issue cannot be resolved by the Department of Finance and Personnel acting alone and will require Executive consideration. First, it is a cross-cutting issue. Secondly, there is no equal pay issue, and therefore no legal liability. It would require legislation to provide a route for payment. Executive discussion and agreement would be required for financial provision to be made. Thirdly, resolving the issue would require significant funding, and, given the already challenging departmental budgets, the Executive would need to agree where the money would come from.

Dolores Kelly (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Upper Bann)

Minister, I must say that I am very disappointed by your answer. There was a debate some months ago in the House, during which agreement was reached. There was also recognition that, although there was no legal obligation, there was a moral obligation. I understood that a paper was submitted to the Executive that suggested that those affected would get a one-off payment of £6,000 — at least, that is information that they have — but that paper has been held up. It has not been presented to the Executive or tabled at Executive meetings. I ask for the Minister's comments on that.

Mervyn Storey (DUP, North Antrim)

I am well aware of the issue. I have read the report of the debate that took place in the House on the matter, and I would like to see progress being made. However, as Minister of Finance, I cannot get away from the court judgement on the issue. After the issue was taken to the courts, a particular ruling was made. There is also an issue with the particular pressure that we are under, given the financial position. There would be a considerable cost to the public purse, and it concerns me how we might balance that against other demands. I accept that my predecessors, going back as far as Minister Wilson, all expressed a view. Mr Wilson outlined the legal position. I think that the latest position, as outlined by Mr Hamilton, was that there was a moral argument. I concur with many of those comments. However, I take the view that we are still in a position in relation to how we would get a resolution to what is a very difficult situation.

Jim Allister (Traditional Unionist Voice, North Antrim)

Surely the successive delay is adding to the scandal of the manner in which these civil servants have been treated. Your predecessor told this House that, in June 2014 — just coming up on two years — a paper had been submitted to the Executive with a view to plotting a way forward. Did that paper never reach the Executive? Given that there are now supposed to be mechanisms whereby you can force an issue onto the Executive table, has that device not been used? If it has not, will the Minister, today, commit to using it?

Mervyn Storey (DUP, North Antrim)

I thank the Member for his supplementary question. I repeat what I said about the importance of the issue. It is unfortunate that we are in this position in relation to that particular sector of public employees. I will, having read part of the judgement on the issue, have a discussion with my officials. The Member will appreciate that I have just taken up post. The matter is in my in tray and I am well aware that it needs to be revisited. I give the House a commitment that I will endeavour to pursue this over the coming weeks.

Gordon Lyons (DUP, East Antrim)

Will the Minister outline any potential risks or implications in relation to this issue regarding the rest of the Civil Service?

Mervyn Storey (DUP, North Antrim)

I thank the Member for his supplementary question. There is always an issue in relation to risk when you come to the payment of an issue like this. As these staff suffered no equal pay detriment during their service, there is, as we have repeatedly said, no legal liability. In addition, it is not possible to construct a business case for a payment for the moral argument. That is within the terms of 'Managing Public Money NI'. Therefore, any payment would be highly vulnerable both to judicial review and to criticism by various audit bodies, including the PAC. An ex gratia payment cannot be made without legal cover, and that would need to be put in place. If payment were made to these staff, other staff in different grades or organisations may feel that they also had a moral right to such a payment, even though they were also unaffected by the Northern Ireland Civil Service pay settlement. NICS staff may become unhappy with the original equal pay settlement, especially if different amounts or grades receive payment, and this could result in a new group of disaffected staff.

I trust that the Member can see, as can the House, that this is not a simple issue. It is not as simple as getting an agreement in the Executive; it has implications for a variety of other elements of the Northern Ireland Civil Service, as I have outlined.

Ross Hussey (UUP, West Tyrone)

I thank the Minister for his responses so far. This matter clearly has been going on for a long time. In fact, I think it was one of the main issues during the last election. Many of those affected have asked this question. Mr Allister asked whether a paper has been submitted to the Executive, as prepared by you or one of your colleagues. Has a paper been submitted to the Executive in relation to this issue?

Mervyn Storey (DUP, North Antrim)

I thank the Member for his supplementary question. When the first Executive paper was circulated by a previous Minister of Finance and Personnel, it received a number of responses from other Ministers. However, not all Ministers have, as yet, responded, including those in the Office of the First Minister and deputy First Minister.

Seán Rogers (Social Democratic and Labour Party, South Down)

4. Mr Rogers asked the Minister of Finance and Personnel, further to the memorandum of understanding on the Northern Ireland corporation tax rate between his Department and Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs, to outline the composition and objectives of the project board on corporation tax. (AQO 9453/11-16)

Mervyn Storey (DUP, North Antrim)

I thank the Member for his question. The Northern Ireland Executive committed to introduce the devolved 12·5% rate of corporation tax from April 2018 as part of the Fresh Start Agreement.

The signing of this memorandum of understanding with Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs is a further concrete step towards that.

The memorandum of understanding will allow for timely development of the IT and administrative systems necessary for the successful implementation and operation of the Northern Ireland regime. A project board is being established with the role of overseeing this important work, which will include representation from my Department, Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs, Her Majesty’s Treasury, and the Northern Ireland Office.

Seán Rogers (Social Democratic and Labour Party, South Down)

I thank the Minister for his answer and wish him well in his new role. With his experience in education, I am sure that he will endeavour to get his sums right. The success of any reduction in the corporation tax rate will depend on creating many jobs, but that will happen only if our young people have the right skills set. Does the Minister have concerns about the skills gap and about ensuring that we have enough young people for the jobs when the corporation tax rate is reduced?

Mervyn Storey (DUP, North Antrim)

I thank the Member for his supplementary question and his best wishes. As I said to someone the other day, the first thing that I had to do when I took the post was to acquire a big calculator and the second thing was to learn how to use it. I realise the challenge that there is for me in this role; however, I will endeavour to do my job to the best of my ability.

The Member raises a valid point, which is about ensuring that while we have set the date and the rate, we have in place all the other component parts that enable us to maximise the best outcome on corporation tax. One of those elements is particularly in relation to skills. That is why last week in the Budget, I indicated that, while we have already agreed £5 million for the skills agenda, it is my intention to bring forward proposals for an additional £20 million when we have further consideration in the June monitoring round after the new mandate comes into operation.

I believe that we need to ensure that all the component parts are in place to maximise the benefits of a reduced rate of corporation tax for Northern Ireland. Let us be under no illusions: there were those who were brought to the party late, and there were those who were probably seen as road-to-Damascus converts on this issue. I believe that Northern Ireland can move forward and build and give a future to our young people and to the economy. Corporation tax will play a vital role in that, and skills are an equally important element of that equation.

Ian McCrea (DUP, Mid Ulster)

I join with the previous Member in encouraging the Minister to deal with the skills gap to ensure that the devolution of corporation tax can be covered in that sense. He mentioned the Northern Ireland corporation tax regime; will he outline how much that work will cost, including any ongoing administrative costs?

Mervyn Storey (DUP, North Antrim)

Obviously, as with any scheme, there will always be a cost. Under the memorandum of understanding, we have built into the Budget an allocation to ensure that we deal with that; it is somewhere in the region of £4 million. We have to make sure that, when it comes to the implementation of corporation tax, we have our IT in the right place and that we have aligned all the other elements. That is why the project board will meet very soon — my officials intend to meet either this week or next week with our colleagues from Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs, Her Majesty's Treasury and the Northern Ireland Office — and we will endeavour to put in place the regime that will deliver corporation tax as we have envisaged. We have set the date, we have the rate and now we need to make progress in preparation for it.

Alex Maskey (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

Go raibh maith agat, a Phríomh-LeasCheann Comhairle. I thank the Minister for his answers so far. In furtherance of the idea of maximising opportunities and benefits from the devolution of corporation tax, will he give us an assurance that he will continue to negotiate and explore with the British Treasury how secondary benefits such as, for example, income tax coming from what is projected to be anything up to 35,000 jobs, could be, at least in part, kept here in the North?

Mervyn Storey (DUP, North Antrim)

I want to ensure that we have covered all our bases. It follows on from what I said about preparations for the introduction of corporation tax. I am keen that, having taken up post, we ensure that we have given consideration to all the possible benefits. This has been described in various ways, including being a game changer for Northern Ireland. My Executive colleagues and I remain focused on the issue. We will do what is in the best interests of the economic challenges that we face and the economic circumstances that we are in. We will ensure that Northern Ireland continues to benefit from the wide variety of benefits that come from the introduction of corporation tax.

Roy Beggs (UUP, East Antrim)

We need to attract new foreign direct investment and encourage new investment from existing companies so that additional corporation tax is raised rather than costs being incurred in the block grant at the start date. Is the Minister satisfied that there is sufficient urgency, from his Department and other Departments, in promoting the advantages so that this additional corporation tax will be raised to benefit the community?

Mervyn Storey (DUP, North Antrim)

Yes, I think that there is. Now that we have started on this road, we need to keep focused. As Finance Minister, I will keep the pressure on, given the work that the project board will have to do to work out the modalities following on from the memorandum of understanding. I understand that the First Minister and the deputy First Minister will be going to the United States soon, and a key component of their message will be that Northern Ireland will have a corporation tax rate of 12·5% in 2018. That is a good message to send out to the United States and to the wider economic world. My colleague in DETI and I will continue to ensure that it plays an important role in encouraging foreign direct investment to Northern Ireland.

Claire Sugden (Independent, East Londonderry)

5. Ms Sugden asked the Minister of Finance and Personnel for his assessment of the impact of the proposed changes to rate payments for large charities and residential homes, including the impact on their proprietors. (AQO 9454/11-16)

Mervyn Storey (DUP, North Antrim)

I thank the Member for her question. I have no plans or proposals to change the rating of large charities and residential homes. My Department, however, is undertaking a wide-ranging review of all non-domestic rate support to help the new Executive to decide what changes are needed to the non-domestic rating system to make it fit for purpose. This process involves asking stakeholders in all sectors to produce evidence to justify their existing support provision, which is not the same thing as signalling an intention to change policy in any particular area.

Claire Sugden (Independent, East Londonderry)

I thank the Minister for his response. I believe that gaps in the current system have led others to make up that shortfall, which discourages investment in town centres. Equally, I do not wish that burden to be passed on to the community and voluntary sector. Where is the balance, so that occupiers do not incur an unfair rates bill every April?

Mervyn Storey (DUP, North Antrim)

There are always different views on rates. My difficulty, and the difficulty with the rating system, is that, if you take money from one hand, you have to find it with the other hand. Many organisations across Northern Ireland can make valid arguments about their own circumstances. However, we have to balance all that against ensuring a fair system. I am aware of the recent revaluation and the concerns that were raised, and a number of appeals are working their way through the system.

However, I remain focused on ensuring that we have a system that is fair. We have to be cautious in any moves that we make so that we do not have a situation in which some benefit over and above others.

Gregory Campbell (DUP, East Londonderry)

The Minister referred to the current revaluation. Will he update the House on its impact on empty retail and commercial premises in our towns and cities?

Mervyn Storey (DUP, North Antrim)

I thank the Member for his supplementary. I assume that he refers to the Lisney report, published just last week. Information in the report points to the positive effects overall of the revaluation, particularly on Donegall Place, which has been described as Northern Ireland's premier shopping street, and the rebalancing of the rate burden towards out-of-town centres without having a detrimental effect on their vacancy rates. The report states:

"The adoption of the rates revaluation has also delivered much-needed help to high streets and the main shopping areas, which has had a positive effect on occupancy levels within these areas."

Are there other issues that we still need to look at? Yes. That is why, when I was in my previous ministerial role, the Department for Social Development, which has responsibility for town centres, undertook considerable investment in town centres: there were provisions for rehabilitation and revitalisation, and public realm works were carried out in many of our towns and city centres. Collectively, they point to the fact that the Executive are committed to ensuring that town centres remain live, vibrant places where people want to shop and do business.

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

7. Mr Poots asked the Minister of Finance and Personnel for an update on the review of Northern Ireland’s non-domestic rating system. (AQO 9456/11-16)

Mervyn Storey (DUP, North Antrim)

Thank you, Mr Poots, for the question. The review of the non-domestic rating system is out for consultation, a process that officially closes today. I am, however, allowing it to run until the end of the month because a number of respondents asked for a little more time to make a submission. It is too early, therefore, to state the final number of responses. Once all responses have been received and considered thoroughly, my Department will report to the Finance Committee on its findings and those of the consultation. That will prepare the way for developing options for change and for decisions to be taken by the Executive early in the next mandate.

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

We all remember that Peter Hain, when he was Secretary of State, introduced industrial rates of 30%, with the intention of driving that up to 100% pre-devolution. Will the Minister give an assurance that it is his intention not to raise industrial rates, as, had Mr Hain's decision stood, it would have decimated our industrial base and ensured that thousands of jobs were lost in Northern Ireland?

Mervyn Storey (DUP, North Antrim)

I thank the Member for his supplementary and for reminding us all of someone from the past, Mr Hain. The Member will be aware that my predecessor stated on a number of occasions that industrial derating will continue and that there are no plans to remove that support from manufacturing. The support provides a valuable boost to the manufacturing sector in Northern Ireland, which, although growing in Northern Ireland, has not been without high-profile difficulties in recent months. I know all too well the challenges faced by my constituency. The relief is of the magnitude of some £58 million a year. It helps 4,300 businesses, and last week's Budget committed to it for 2016-17. My predecessor said that she intended to retain industrial derating, following a business rates review that is under way. I confirm to the House that I support that position and that there are no plans to remove the support, which I see as key to building and supporting manufacturing in Northern Ireland.

The wider review officially closes today, although some engagement with stakeholders has been undertaken this week at the close of the formal consultation period.

Robin Newton (DUP, Belfast East)

That ends the period for listed questions. We now move on to 15 minutes of topical questions.

Danny Kennedy (UUP, Newry and Armagh)

T1. Mr Kennedy asked the Minister of Finance and Personnel for an update on the number of dormant accounts held by his Department and the amounts involved. (AQT 3371/11-16)

Danny Kennedy (UUP, Newry and Armagh)

I congratulate the Minister on his recent elevation and wish him well.

Mervyn Storey (DUP, North Antrim)

I thank the Member for his best wishes and look forward to working with him on the issue.

Some £7·15 million is available for Northern Ireland expenditure under the Dormant Bank and Building Society Accounts Act 2008. As part of the 2015-16 Budget, the Executive agreed that the moneys should be made available in Northern Ireland through the establishment of a new fund.