Northern Ireland Assembly, 2 February 2016

339 contributions from 50 members. The official report.

Executive Committee Business

Mitchel McLaughlin (Speaker, South Antrim)

Before we proceed to today's business, I have some announcements to make. I wish to inform the House that the Insolvency (Amendment) Bill received Royal Assent on Friday 29 January 2016. It will be known as the Insolvency (Amendment) Act (Northern Ireland) 2016.

Mitchel McLaughlin (Speaker, South Antrim)

The Food Hygiene Rating Bill received Royal Assent on Friday 29 January 2016. It will be known as the Food Hygiene Rating Act (Northern Ireland) 2016.

Assembly Business

Mitchel McLaughlin (Speaker, South Antrim)

Mr Alban Maginness has sought leave to present a public petition in accordance with Standing Order 22. The Member will have up to three minutes to speak.

Alban Maginness (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast North)

Thank you very much, Mr Speaker. It is my honour to present to you this petition in relation to education in north Belfast; in particular, the proposals put forward by the Council for Catholic Maintained Schools (CCMS) and the Education Authority to discontinue Little Flower Girls' School and St Patrick's College — development proposal Nos 440 to 442 — and to amalgamate both schools.

The petition is a spontaneous and genuine expression by concerned parents, particularly at Little Flower Girls' School. The parents have read the proposals and believe that they should be given the option of a single-sex girls' school and, indeed, a single-sex boys' school in the Catholic sector in north Belfast. They feel very strongly about that. They went about obtaining signatures, of which there are now 1,617, and those continue to flow in.

There could be many more signatures, such is the strength of opinion. They are saying that, for girls in particular, it is advantageous to have a single-sex school. They believe that the Little Flower school has had an excellent performance and, in the recent past, it has had excellent inspection reports. Indeed, no later than Friday, the headmaster of the school, Mr Jim McKeever, won the best principal award given by Blackboard. That is some achievement.

They also look at the grammar-school sector and see St Malachy's College, which is single sex, and the Dominican College, which is a single-sex girls' school. They also look at the controlled sector and see that the Boys' Model School — an excellent school in north Belfast — is single sex, as is the Girls' Model School. They look at the cooperation and partnership between St Patrick's College in north Belfast and Little Flower Girls' School. It is a wonderful cooperation and a wonderful partnership, particularly at sixth-form level, and they say, "If it ain't broke, why fix it?" They are saying very strongly to the Education Authority and to CCMS, "Let's leave this alone". So, I am pleased to bring to the Table the petition against the development proposals.

Mr A Maginness moved forward and laid the petition on the Table.

Mitchel McLaughlin (Speaker, South Antrim)

Thank you very much, Mr Maginness. I will forward the petition to the Minister of Education and send a copy to the Committee.

Executive Committee Business

Mitchel McLaughlin (Speaker, South Antrim)

I call the junior Minister Ms Jennifer McCann to move the Bill.

Moved. — [Ms J McCann (Junior Minister, Office of the First Minister and deputy First Minister).]

Mitchel McLaughlin (Speaker, South Antrim)

One amendment has been tabled. Members will have a copy of the Marshalled List of amendments detailing the order for consideration. The amendment deals with bringing into operation the reduction in the number of Members per constituency by May 2016.

Chris Lyttle (Alliance, Belfast East)

I beg to move the following amendment:

In page 1, leave out subsection (2) and insert

"(2) The amendment made by subsection (1) comes into effect on or before 28 March 2016; and has effect in relation to the Assembly elected at the poll on 5 May 2016 (the Assembly election) as well as its successors.".

I welcome the opportunity to move the amendment. We had a robust debate on the proposed reduction in the number of MLAs at the Second Stage of the Assembly Members (Reduction of Numbers) Bill. The Alliance Party has long supported the principle of the reduction of the number of MLAs in line with the proposal from 108 to 90; that is, from six to five MLAs for each of the 18 constituencies. Indeed, every political party appears to support that principle.

Today, therefore, is about granting every MLA in the Assembly the opportunity to deliver and vote for that change that everyone agrees with in principle in time for the 2016 election, rather than delay for another five years and waste possibly as much as £11 million on this issue.

Everyone appears to agree that this is the right thing to do. Why do they agree that it is the right thing to do? We can look at over-governance in Northern Ireland and compare it with other regions in these isles. It is my understanding that Scotland has one MSP per approximately 40,000 people, Wales has one AM per approximately 50,000 people, but, here in Northern Ireland, we have one MLA for 16,000 to 17,000 people. That is a drastically different ratio by any assessment.

Secondly, we would save around £11 million over five years. Those may seem like modest savings to some, but, to put it into some perspective, the OFMDFM childcare budget alone for 2011-15 was approximately £12 million. That £11 million is a significant amount of public money that could be redirected to other vital front-line services that are in need of investment at this time.

Thirdly, the change is also in line with wider, ongoing Assembly reform. We are taking through the Assembly reasonably significant changes in the reduction, renaming and transfer of functions within Departments in Northern Ireland and through the introduction of an opposition, all with the aim of creating more efficient and effective Executive and Assembly processes. We, therefore, believe that it is the right time to include the reduction in the number of MLAs in that wider reform. There has been a lot of mention of wanting to see delivery and to have less talk and more action on those issues in the Assembly. Today, Mr Speaker, we are presenting all MLAs with the opportunity to vote in favour of action on this issue, rather than delay.

One of the arguments that was made most notably and emotively at Second Stage was about inclusion. I asked this question at that stage, and I will ask it again today: how will the impact of the change on inclusion be different in 2016 than in 2021? I genuinely do not understand that argument, and I hope that people have perhaps reflected on it.

As I said, Alliance is granting every party in the Assembly the opportunity to deliver the change, which they all agree with in principle, now in 2016, rather than to delay for another five years until 2021. We hope that the amendment will be supported.

Paul Frew (DUP, North Antrim)

I will speak on the legislation and on the amendment that has been moved by the Alliance Party. I will again put on record our support for the legislation and the welcome change that it will bring with the reduction in numbers of MLAs, as well as the reasons why that is the case. Of course, we rehearsed those at the last debate, and we will not need to go over the same ground — hopefully.

I also welcome the change in stance by the Alliance Party. I very much welcome that it is now on the same plateau as us in the DUP. It is a pity that it has taken all parties so long to get on the same wavelength as us and to get an agreement on a reduction of numbers. I again welcome that we have finally reached agreement, albeit painstakingly, year in and year out, and then, of course, during the days of negotiations that led to the Fresh Start Agreement.

It is only a small part of the Fresh Start Agreement to have a Bill that proposes a move from six MLAs per constituency to five. Of course, we would like to have gone further. We wanted to reduce more MLAs per constituency, and we would like to have done that before now. In fact, as I said the last time, we would like to have done it yesterday. This party, the DUP, has been campaigning on such a move since 2002. We rejoice that we are here today at this stage of the Bill and that we will get agreement that will see that aim of this party finalised, agreed and realised for 2021.

We wish that we had done it sooner and that we had it now, but we could not do it. We realise that through the agreement that we have made.

One thing that we do in this party is honour the agreements we make. It is not everything we want. Of course we want more. We will keep going until we get more but we will bank the progress we have made and will continue to bank it when we can every time that we can.

I do welcome the change in stance and policy of the Alliance Party.

Chris Lyttle (Alliance, Belfast East)

Will the Member give way?

Paul Frew (DUP, North Antrim)

Yes, I will.

Chris Lyttle (Alliance, Belfast East)

Will the Member clarify the stark difference that he is attempting to set out in the different timescales of support in relation to this particular policy between the DUP and Alliance? This has been a long-standing policy position of the Alliance Party. My only regret today is that the DUP is unable to stand behind its own policy position in relation to this issue.

Paul Frew (DUP, North Antrim)

I thank the Member for his contribution. Again, it comes back to the very point that I made the last time we talked about this: we negotiated an agreement. We signed the Fresh Start Agreement and, within that, we banked the progress that we had fought for for so long. The Member talks about his party having this policy for so long. It is a shame that, even as recently as the Stormont House Agreement, the Alliance Party could not support the DUP in its position of reducing the number of MLAs in each constituency to four. Through the Chair, I ask the Member why that is the case. The Stormont House Agreement was only a number of years ago, and the Alliance Party, along with all the other parties, could not support the DUP in going to four per constituency. Mr Speaker, I will gladly give way on that point.

Chris Lyttle (Alliance, Belfast East)

I thank the Member for his contribution. Why, then, is the Member from the DUP not bringing forward proposals for a reduction to four MLAs in this legislation? We have brought forward constructive proposals that we are debating here on the Floor of the Assembly. I do not see any from the DUP of the nature to which the Member refers.

Paul Frew (DUP, North Antrim)

The Member will know fine well about bringing any amendment to the Floor of the House without having first sought out the other parties' views on it, spoken to them and negotiated with them to see where they stand on it. He will know fine rightly that the majority of amendments like that will fail, especially when we were all party to the Fresh Start Agreement, which actually settled this point in this mandate and was agreed by the very MLAs who were elected in this mandate.

The Member will know fine well that this amendment of his could be construed as an election stunt. I hope that it is not and that the Alliance Party will stick to this policy, even in the next mandate, when we see this agreement come to fruition. I hope the Member and his party will stick with us in working towards an agreement to reduce it to four Members per constituency. That is where we want to get to, and we will keep going, we will keep working, we will keep influencing and we will keep negotiating with all parties in this House, come what may, after this election in order to achieve that. That is how progress is made.

The DUP could have brought a raft of amendments to this Bill, but we have already agreed what could be agreed as part of the Fresh Start Agreement. We pushed for more, we got what we got and we are going to bank it. Why would any party that agreed the Fresh Start Agreement bring forward amendments? That could well unravel —

Chris Lyttle (Alliance, Belfast East)

Can the Member give way?

Paul Frew (DUP, North Antrim)

I will in a minute.

It could well unravel or jeopardise the Fresh Start Agreement — not only this aspect of it, but the whole agreement. The Member will know full well the issues and problems that we had before the Fresh Start Agreement. Does the Member want to go back to those days? Does the Member want to go back to the days when nothing was agreed, government and politics stagnated and the hard decisions were not made for our people? Does the Member want to go back to those days? I worry that amendments like these, which can be seen as stunts, could well unravel and jeopardise the very agreements that we have made through painstaking negotiations.

I will give way, if the Member still sees fit.

Chris Lyttle (Alliance, Belfast East)

I thank the Member for giving way. I ask him to clarify his contribution, which painted a picture that every MLA in this House somehow agreed with the Fresh Start Agreement. As far as I am aware, there are two particular parties that stand behind the Fresh Start Agreement.

I am also becoming increasingly frustrated, Mr Speaker, at being told that MLAs in this Chamber are not allowed to use the Assembly due process of Consideration Stage to bring forward perfectly legitimate amendments to legislation that is coming through the Assembly. That is our job. The other parties are perfectly entitled to respond robustly to those amendments, but the DUP argued vociferously that the public support this position and want to see it happening. If it is an election stunt to bring forward sensible and legitimate amendments that are in the interest of the common good and the public, perhaps the DUP could bring forward some of those types of amendments.

Paul Frew (DUP, North Antrim)

I thank the Member for his intervention. If the Alliance Party were so keen to see this amendment through — they are speaking passionately on it now, and I am glad that the Member acknowledges that I am trying to challenge the party robustly — why has it come so late in the day? Why was it not in the Fresh Start Agreement? Why did they not stand side by side with us when we wanted these changes? Why did they not speak up in the Stormont House Agreement? Why did they not push this view then, when we could have got agreement on this and could well have had it settled? Maybe we could have got what the Member now wishes for, which is a change at this election.

We are where we are, and we have the Fresh Start Agreement. Again, I ask the Member this: why would we jeopardise that good work and that agreement? Why would this party jeopardise that when we can see that it will help to move this country and our people forward?

Stewart Dickson (Alliance, East Antrim)

Will the Member give way?

Paul Frew (DUP, North Antrim)

I will give way.

Stewart Dickson (Alliance, East Antrim)

I invite the Member to expand for us his concerns about jeopardising the Fresh Start Agreement. Surely any reasonable person would understand and accept that a saving of some £11 million to the public purse is something that we should be moving towards as quickly as possible. There does not seem to be any justification for not supporting the amendment in respect of a reduction in numbers from six to five Members in constituencies. It is a simple matter of an instruction to the electoral authorities that that is the number of Members that the Assembly wishes to return to the next mandate.

I also ask Mr Frew to explain why he would consider using the word "rejoicing" in delaying until the mandate beyond the next one for these changes to take place. It does not seem to be a matter for rejoicing but a matter for regret.

Paul Frew (DUP, North Antrim)

I thank the Member for his contribution, albeit a wee bit downbeat in demeanour. I apologise for that; I try to rejoice every morning when I wake, and I try to be forward-thinking and positive in my outlook.

Alban Maginness (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast North)

I agree with that.

Paul Frew (DUP, North Antrim)

Mr Maginness acknowledges that and agrees with it, just for the benefit of Hansard.

Alban Maginness (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast North)

Every day is a bonus, especially when you are 65.

Paul Frew (DUP, North Antrim)

Every day is a bonus. I thank the Member for his contribution. That is the way that we should come to politics. That is the way that we should come to the table. We should not be regretful or negative. I would say to Mr Lyttle that, if it is about saving money, why not have in his amendment a reduction to four Members per constituency? That would be more meaningful and it would suit our agenda and our aims and objectives much better. It is not just about simply saving money. I want to sprinkle some of my rejoicing over the way in order to get the Bill passed, get it banked and make progress for the good of all our people.

I have said enough at this point, Mr Speaker, so thank you very much for the time that you have given me.

Alex Maskey (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. I will not detain the House any longer than necessary, so I will not be taking any interventions, thank you.

As the Member who proposed the amendment made very clear in his earlier submission, this matter has been well rehearsed. I reiterate, on behalf of Sinn Féin, that we support the Bill as tabled. That is, to reduce the number of MLAs from six to five per constituency before the elections in 2021. We entirely acknowledge that there is a significant public perception that there are too many MLAs, but that is not a position that we accept at all. We remind people of the original discussions that brought us to the Good Friday Agreement, which wanted to enshrine inclusivity and to maximise participation in a fledgling democratic process.

I think that the events of the last number of months very much underline the need for such prudence, given the fact that we have been, to some extent, alienated from the general public. Perhaps a lot of people feel disaffected towards the Assembly, and that indicates that vehicles are still needed that bring people closer to the political process, so we support the Bill as tabled.

We remind people, as we did in the last debate, that, when we talk about over-governance and we compare here with Scotland or somewhere else, this is not Scotland. Thankfully, Scotland did not experience some of the situations that we have had to deal with here. It is not comparing like for like, so there is a need for continuing, greater inclusivity. Neither I, nor Sinn Féin — or anyone else — knows whether the political process will be more inclusive in 2021 than it is now. I hope it might be, but I do not know. We are certainly prepared to begin the process of reducing the number of MLAs from six to five per constituency, and we do that heartily and gladly.

As I said, we oppose the amendment for that reason, and I would remind people that, when we talk about over-governance, we still have fewer than 200, and more than 150, quangos. Some of those, such as tribunals and other bodies, are very important and need to be in existence, given the nature of them. There are some very professional people providing public service on many of those bodies, but there are also a lot of quangos that should no longer be in existence. They were only ever really there when we had direct rule, when we had a very clear democratic deficit. There is no justification, in our view, for retaining quite a number of those bodies. That is where we need to start making a real difference in reducing the democratic deficit, because, let us remind ourselves, a lot of those bodies discharge a significant amount of public money. They also discharge quite a number of public services, and, as far as Sinn Féin is concerned, we need to look at the existence of a number of those bodies and remind ourselves that we have over 2,000 persons appointed to those bodies. We talk about the number of elected representatives, but there are a lot more non-elected people involved in discharging public services here and discharging a lot of public largesse, if you like. They are not elected and they are less accountable. On that basis, Sinn Féin supports the Bill and opposes the amendment.

Alban Maginness (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast North)

Thank you very much, Mr Speaker. The SDLP opposes the Alliance amendment, and it is right and proper for us to oppose it, as indeed do the DUP and Sinn Féin, as I understand it. There a number of reasons why, in fact, this amendment should not be supported. It is important to remember that we come out of a very terrible history, where this society was engulfed in political and sectarian violence. We suffered appallingly and we arrived at a political agreement called the Good Friday Agreement or the Belfast Agreement. Through that agreement, we worked out a new political system. It might be imperfect — it might not be to everybody's liking — but at least everyone in this Assembly is engaged in it. We brought about a degree of peace, stability and political progress of which we can be rightly proud. I say that as someone who has gone through the whole process, from 1998 until now. Indeed, beyond that, I was involved in all sorts of negotiations.

I am old enough to remember the old Stormont Parliament, a model that did not serve the people of this region well. We should congratulate ourselves on the progress that we have made. Everybody in the House, from every political party, or perhaps most political parties, would say that the involvement of people at the highest possible level in government is very important. The principle of inclusivity, which was referred to by Mr Frew and Mr Maskey, is very important. We must involve our people in order to get greater engagement and build on the peace that we have achieved. That peace should not be taken for granted. If we take that peace for granted, we are on a perilous road. I am absolutely certain that that is not what is intended by the Alliance Party, but, unfortunately, I think that that party is taking for granted the peace, this institution and the considerable progress that we have made. I do not think that we should do that.

The reduction in the number of MLAs set out in the Bill is, I think, a suitable compromise. We are on a political journey, and politics are organic, not static. We are on a journey to try to improve what we have. We, in the SDLP, buy into the principle of that improvement. The Bill allows for a development in the numbers in the next five years. As Mr Maskey says, he does not know whether there will be greater inclusivity by 2020 or 2021, but we hope for it, and there is consensus in the House on that and on the Bill. As Mr Frew said, we have achieved an agreement, and it was not an easy agreement to reach. The Stormont House talks 1 and 2 were very difficult, but we achieved agreement.

I take it that the Alliance Party amendment is well intentioned. I am not certain that I buy into the point that Mr Frew made — that it is an election stunt. I take it that the amendment is well intended, but the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

Gordon Lyons (DUP, East Antrim)

— positive.

Alban Maginness (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast North)

I did not quite hear what my DUP colleague across the Chamber said.

Gordon Lyons (DUP, East Antrim)

Be positive.

Alban Maginness (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast North)

I think that the amendment is well intended. However, it misses the point that we have achieved a lot but cannot take things for granted. If we change the number of MLAs for the May election, we will undermine what we have achieved, and it is no mean achievement. The postponement of the reduction to 2020 or 2021 is not unreasonable. A period of four or five years is not too long in our history.

I want to make one further point. It is one that Mr Maskey also raised and it is important. We cannot compare our ratio of representatives to population with that in other jurisdictions in these islands — Scotland, Wales or the Republic.

The reason for that is that we are a society with many different and significant points of view, and they should be articulated. There should at least be the opportunity to articulate them through election to the Assembly. It is up to the people. I do not know what the people will do in May; none of us in the Assembly knows. The commentators might know, because they tend to know more than any of us. However, I believe that it is within the gift of the electorate to decide, and they are not stupid. They will make their decision wisely.

In five years' time, what will the people be thinking? They may think quite differently, and there may be different political formations. We cannot predict the future. Politics is an organic process, and humankind makes different decisions. We know now that we have a period of imperfect stability and progress. To use Mr Frew's term: we should bank it. It is important for us, therefore, to support the Bill as it stands and to reject the Alliance Party amendment.

Andy Allen (UUP, Belfast East)

I apologise for coming slightly late to this important debate. The amendment was tabled by the Alliance Party because it was unable to secure agreement in the talks. The Ulster Unionist Party supports the reduction in numbers at the Assembly as part of the wider measures in the Programme for Government to bring about a more streamlined public administration that is more effective and efficient, and delivers better government for all our people. That is what we should all strive for. It is not about whether it should be six, five or four Members; it is about delivering effective, streamlined and efficient government for all our people, making sure that they are represented to the best of our ability. When I was offered the chance of coming into the Assembly, I thought long and hard about it. What made me come in was my passion and desire to deliver a better Northern Ireland for our people.

We need to make sure that the Assembly is diverse and inclusive, which is why the amendment is too important to get wrong and why we in the Ulster Unionist Party will not support it. We would love to have been able to support it, but we believe that it has been brought in too late in the day. We want government that delivers the best for our people.

Gordon Lyons (DUP, East Antrim)

I welcome the opportunity to take part in today's debate. It is good that we are at another stage along the process to cut the number of MLAs and, hopefully, to make our government more efficient and effective.

The amendment tabled by Alliance Party Members has come forward for one of two reasons: either it is a genuine attempt to cut the number of MLAs in time for the 2016 election, or it is a case of political grandstanding. I think that it is political grandstanding. If the Alliance Party wanted to cut the number of MLAs in time for the May election, it might have taken a different approach in the talks. Perhaps, both at Stormont House and during the Fresh Start talks, it would have brought the issue forward and tried to convince the other parties. It would have tried to gain consensus with other people. Of course, the Alliance Party would pride itself on trying to get consensus and agreement among parties before anything is pushed forward. It would never want to push any amendment through if a wider consensus could first be agreed.

The reason why I think that this is happening only because we are in the run-up to an election is that it did not bring forward these proposals at an earlier stage. Indeed, when this was discussed at the Stormont House talks and the DUP asked the other parties who wanted to go for four MLAs in 2016, not a single party put its paw up. They did not want to agree to that at all. So, as much as the Alliance Party talks about wanting to save money and all the great things that can be done with that, it is a shame that, earlier in the process, it did not agree to a cut that would have taken place sooner and —

Chris Lyttle (Alliance, Belfast East)

I thank the Member for giving way. I appreciate that the DUP is attempting to find a fig leaf to cover its lack of immediate delivery on this issue by introducing the idea of four MLAs and all the rest of it at this stage. What is a more genuine approach to delivering on an issue than by interacting with the legitimate legislative processes of the Assembly?

Gordon Lyons (DUP, East Antrim)

I completely agree that the Member has every right to bring amendments here. It is a good thing for people to use the democratic process that we have in the Assembly. However, the system in which we operate requires consensus and the support of more than one party, so, of course, this was the right way to bring this forward. We have a Bill in front of us, for goodness' sake. We are using the proper legislative processes in the Assembly to bring this forward.

Paul Frew (DUP, North Antrim)

I thank the Member for giving way. Is the Alliance Party comparing the work that it has put into what will be a failed amendment with the progress that this party, the DUP, has made over those years in securing the agreement, banking it in this mandate, and ensuring that this will come to pass? Is it comparing that work and energy with an amendment that is clearly going to fail in the House?

Gordon Lyons (DUP, East Antrim)

That brings me to a very important point. We know that we need to get proper support in the Chamber if anything is to pass. To be fair to the Alliance Party, it brought it to the Assembly in a private Members' motion. In fact, Mr Dickson was very exercised with the Deputy Speaker at that time because it did not even go to a vote in the Lobbies as it was not able to get enough support. The fact that it proposes an amendment at this time demonstrates even more that it is an election stunt. The Alliance Party brought it to the Floor within the last few months and was not able to get the necessary support.

I have another query for the Alliance Party. I have 'A Fresh Start' here, an agreement that the Alliance Party did not sign up to. It quotes from the 'Stormont House Agreement', which it did support. It says very clearly:

"The number of Assembly members should be reduced to five members per constituency, or such other reduction as may be agreed —"

— which could have been four —

" — in time for the 2021 Assembly election".

I did not hear any opposition 12 months ago; I did not hear any complaints from Alliance Party Members. However, it is coming up now, and I think that that is grandstanding because we are in the mouth of an election. Although it is the DUP that has been championing reform of this place for well over a decade, the Alliance Party is trying to jump on the bandwagon now, get some of the plaudits, and make themselves be seen as great reformers.

I do not agree with all that Mr Alban Maginness said, but he is right that this has been a process. It takes time. There are a number of concerns that need to be taken into consideration when we talk about adjusting the structures of this place. I think that we are doing it in the right way. To be very honest, I would be more than happy to see the number of MLAs reduced for the election this year. I have no objection to that, and that is well known.

Stewart Dickson (Alliance, East Antrim)

Support it.

Gordon Lyons (DUP, East Antrim)

Mr Dickson asks why I will not support the amendment. I will not support it, first, because, as I said, I believe that it is nothing other than political grandstanding.

The second reason is that we have an agreement. We worked at it and negotiated it. It was long — very long — and difficult. A lot of work went into it. Perhaps we would like to see a few changes. Perhaps there are some things that we might like to see happen sooner. But the deal was made. It was agreed, and we are going to stick to it.

I welcome the Alliance Party's desire to see the reform of government. I hope that this debate can be taken up again in the next mandate and that we can go further. Cutting the number of MLAs does not necessarily mean that we will have the most efficient or effective government, but, hopefully, it will help and will be a move towards it. Let us have that discussion and debate. In the meantime, as my colleague Mr Frew said, we have made progress and we are banking it.

Paul Frew (DUP, North Antrim)

I thank the Member for giving way. It is important that we acknowledge the movement that the Alliance Party has made to come on to our ground. We hope that it will stay there and will work with us in the new mandate to make even greater progress.

Gordon Lyons (DUP, East Antrim)

I certainly agree with the comments that Mr Frew made. Indeed, there is great rejoicing in heaven over a sinner who repents.

The Alliance Party may say, "Oh, we've been calling for this for a long time". We have been calling for it since at least 2002, if not before. The Alliance Party has joined us late, but we welcome that very much indeed. It has obviously proposed the amendment because it wants to cut in 2016. We want to stick to the agreement that we made. I do not know; maybe there is some fear on behalf of the Alliance Party and it wants to stop the march of the Green Party, or it is fearful of increased support for —

Chris Lyttle (Alliance, Belfast East)

Will the Member give way?

Gordon Lyons (DUP, East Antrim)

I will give way to Mr Lyttle.

Chris Lyttle (Alliance, Belfast East)

It is my understanding that the Green Party supports this policy, but it can clarify that for itself. Maybe we should welcome the new-found agreement and cordiality between the DUP and Sinn Féin. The Member is, in effect, saying that he is blocked from supporting his party policy on this today because of a deal that he has with Sinn Féin.

Gordon Lyons (DUP, East Antrim)

Not at all. We have made an agreement. We are getting towards where we want to be. It is going to happen in 2021. Could we have had that sooner? Yes, but we are where we are. We have a deal, and we are going to stick to it.

The time has come for me to finish my remarks. I am very pleased that we have this Bill. It should proceed unamended. I think that it is a significant change that we have guaranteed overall in what we are doing. Yes, the reduction of MLAs is important, but I think the changes happening with Departments will be where the real efficiency is.

John Dallat (Social Democratic and Labour Party, East Londonderry)

Will the Member give way?

Gordon Lyons (DUP, East Antrim)

Of course I will give way to Mr Dallat.

John Dallat (Social Democratic and Labour Party, East Londonderry)

I realise that the Member is coming to a conclusion. Before that, will he perhaps agree with me that, given the very nature of Northern Ireland and its history, we need the broadest possible representation? That is something that we should always put at the forefront in the representation in the House and in the wider community. I regret that the Civic Forum has been, apparently, buried. We cannot function without as inclusive a body of people to support this place as we can get.

By way of finishing, I express amazement that the Alliance Party is so worried about reducing the number of Members when, for the last decade or so, it has enjoyed having two ministerial posts with eight Members when my own party, with 14 Members, has only one.

Stewart Dickson (Alliance, East Antrim)

That is called sour grapes.

John Dallat (Social Democratic and Labour Party, East Londonderry)

Apparently, that is called sour grapes. It might also be called hypocrisy.

Gordon Lyons (DUP, East Antrim)

I thank the Member for his intervention. I am not going to get involved in any spat between the SDLP and the Alliance Party.

The Member made a point about making sure that people feel included and that there is proper representation. I welcome the SDLP support for the Bill. I understand why it is making some of the points that it is making. I think there should be an awful lot of concern for people if we were moving to a first-past-the-post system. However, we are going to continue to have a PR system. There may be fewer MLAs in the Chamber, but it will be a PR system, which means that the Chamber will roughly reflect the population. I think that is why the Bill has broad support. It is not as though you are saying, "Right. We are going to get rid of 10 or 12 Members. We will get rid of the SDLP Members." The system will still be a proportional one, which I think is to be welcomed.

As I said, reducing the number of MLAs is part of a wider package of reforms. It is not just about reducing the number of MLAs and the number of Departments; it is about making sure that functions are located within the right Department. That is why I will support the Bill as it makes its way through the House and why I will be unable to support the Alliance amendment.

Jennifer McCann (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

Go raibh maith agat, Mr Speaker. I oppose amendment No 1, which is the only amendment tabled. The purpose of the amendment is to have the proposed reduction in the number of MLAs returned from each constituency come into effect in time for the May 2016 election, rather than in 2021. That has been subject to lengthy discussion and debate over the last few weeks and months, most recently last week during the Second Stage debate.

The time that the Bill's provisions should take effect was first raised in the Chamber on 23 November last year, less than a week after the publication of the 'Fresh Start Agreement' and the Executive's agreement to the Bill. At that time, a private Member's motion from Alliance Party Members, whose party tabled the amendment today, was debated. That motion, in common with the proposed amendment that we are discussing today, called on the Executive to ensure that the proposed reduction in the number of MLAs applies to the 2016 election. Following a full debate, that proposal was resoundingly defeated without even the need for a Division.

Next, we had consideration of the Bill by the Assembly and Executive Review Committee on 19 January, when my colleague junior Minister Pengelly and I explained to the Committee why the Bill needed to progress by accelerated passage. During that discussion, all but one of the Committee members supported the provisions of the Bill, including the proposed timescale for them to take effect.

Consideration of the matter continued during last week's accelerated passage and Second Stage debates, when, once again, a significant majority of Members demonstrated clear support for the Bill, including its effective date. It is therefore the case that there has emerged a clear majority agreement on a specific point of timing, and the Assembly, including even Members from the Alliance Party, might have reasonably concluded that it was now a settled matter.

In spite of that level of agreement and evidence of overwhelming support for the Bill taking effect for the Assembly election after that in May this year, the Alliance Party still considers it necessary to pursue the matter through this amendment. After all the debate that has taken place and the arguments that have been aired, it is difficult to do anything other than reiterate that, while we respect the position of the Alliance Party that we should move almost immediately to a reduction in the size of the Assembly, the view of the other parties is that that should be moderated by a period in which the Assembly and the parties represented in it can consider and address the implications for equality and inclusiveness that have also been raised and that are equally valid to the Alliance Party's urgent desire for downsizing.

Therefore, I ask Members to join me in voting against the amendment.

Stewart Dickson (Alliance, East Antrim)

We have had an interesting debate this morning on the matter. Indeed, on occasion, it has been somewhat jovial, but it is a serious matter, and I think a serious response is therefore required to the comments that have been made.

This is not a political stunt, and it is not about grabbing headlines. This is genuinely about trying to deliver efficient and effective government for all the citizens in Northern Ireland. If we do not start in this place, I think it will be very difficult for us to start anywhere else.

First, I will comment on the words of Mr Frew. I will describe them as mañana politics. He is quite happy for the change to take place but not now. It seems to me that that is a difficult argument for the DUP and Mr Frew's colleague Mr Lyons, who was not even an MLA when much of these discussions started, to make.

It seems to me that the DUP wants to support the amendment that we are proposing but cannot because it is tied to its so-called Fresh Start Agreement with Sinn Féin. My colleague has already described the words that have been used as a "fig leaf". I think that that perhaps is exactly what the DUP is attempting to achieve for itself today. On one hand, it is trying to compliment us for our move — a genuine move — to try to provide for better government in this place but, at the same time, it has to stick with the agreement that it has made with Sinn Féin. I simply cannot understand what will change between now and 2021.

Mr Maskey made reference to the fact that much of the public feel alienated from this place and many of the people who act as representatives in it. I do not disagree with him in any way. However, I throw the challenge back to him. How better to re-engage with that alienated public than by us taking a bold and strident initiative to reduce the numbers in this place and to provide for an effective connection with those people who elect us and expect us to do a job for them?

I have a great deal of time and respect for the comments of Mr Maginness, and I wholeheartedly accept and respect the journey that he and his party and, indeed, many of us in the Chamber — I ask him to include the Alliance Party in that — have taken. We all have made that journey to peace together. I respect the comments that he made about his caution in respect of these changes but, equally, I say to Mr Maginness that change is difficult and that perhaps the time has come for us to face up to that change. There are those who are reluctant to face change, and there are those of us who wish to eagerly stride forward and take ourselves into that area of change. While I certainly have respect and understanding for the journey that the SDLP has made, together with many of us in the Chamber, I cannot accept that we must always be looking backwards. The time has come for us not to be afraid of change, to grasp it and to grasp it now. I assure him and those who thought that our amendment may not be well intentioned — I assure every Member — that it is well intended; it is intended to deliver good government for all citizens in Northern Ireland.

Gordon Lyons (DUP, East Antrim)

I thank the Member for giving way. He has said that this is well intentioned and genuine and that he thinks it would be a very positive development for the House to take. Perhaps he could let us know when he consulted with the other parties, how he tried to build consensus and what meetings he has had. Before bringing this to the Floor, and giving us all a few days' notice, what attempts did he or his colleague make to ensure that there would be the necessary support for it to pass?

Stewart Dickson (Alliance, East Antrim)

As I intimated, Mr Lyons perhaps is not au fait with all of the discussions that have taken place over an extremely long period. If he checks the records of Fresh Start, Stormont House and many of the discussions and meetings that have taken place, which Mr Maginness has made reference to, he will see an acknowledgement by the Alliance Party of a need to provide not only inclusivity in this place but effective and efficient government. That is an argument that my party has long made here and in all of those meetings that have taken place outside the Chamber.

I note Mr Allen's comments regarding the Ulster Unionist Party's support for the reduction but I do not understand why, like others, it cannot do it today. Perhaps that is the attitude of a party that seems to have checked out of this place quite some time ago.

It is important that we balance the arguments. Others have made reference to the skills of the Alliance Party in attempting to build consensus. Despite the type of debate that we have had today, that is exactly where the Alliance Party sits in respect of this matter. We are trying to build that consensus. We did not achieve that through all the talks and events that have taken place and which have brought us to where we are today in respect of this agreement between Sinn Féin and the DUP.

However, there are times when it is important for us as a political party to step up to the plate for ourselves and say, "This is what we in the Alliance Party believe is important to deliver for the electorate." I understand Mr Lyons's need to stick to his agreement with Sinn Féin, but, clearly, he and his colleague Mr Frew have indicated very strong support for the change and reduction in numbers, and I think that, in that respect, they have clearly failed in their Fresh Start Agreement. For me and my party, and for many people out there, that is and should be a matter of regret.

I listened carefully to the words of the junior Minister and her reference to debates in the Chamber and also to the so-called Fresh Start Agreement. I respect the mandate of the Chamber and that I failed to gain even a vote in that debate, but what cannot be denied is that the debate took place and that our voice was heard in it and by the public outside. Certainly, it is what we want. For me, it is all about delivering equality and fairness in the Assembly; it is all about giving space to every voice in the community that can deliver a political mandate to sit in the Chamber. Perhaps the junior Minister wants to reflect on the inequalities that her party seems to have delivered in one constituency in the selection of its candidates for Fermanagh and South Tyrone.

On that point, I will leave the debate. I predict the outcome as a further defeat for the amendment. Nevertheless, it reflects, in my view, the failure of the Assembly to embrace change. I encourage the Assembly to embrace that change.

Question put, That the amendment be made. The Assembly divided:

Ayes 9; Noes 43

AYES

Mr Agnew, Mr Allister, Mrs Cochrane, Mr Dickson, Dr Farry, Mr Ford, Mr Lunn, Mr Lyttle, Mr McCarthy

Tellers for the Ayes: Mr Dickson, Mr Lyttle

NOES

Mr Allen, Mr Attwood, Mr Beggs, Mr Cree, Mr Dallat, Mr Diver, Mr Easton, Mr Eastwood, Mr Flanagan, Mr Hazzard, Mrs D Kelly, Mr G Kelly, Mr Kennedy, Mr Lynch, Mr McAleer, Mr F McCann, Ms J McCann, Mr McCartney, Ms McCorley, Mr McCrossan, Mr McElduff, Ms McGahan, Mr McGimpsey, Mr McGlone, Mr M McGuinness, Mr McKay, Mrs McKevitt, Mr McKinney, Ms Maeve McLaughlin, Mr McMullan, Mr A Maginness, Mr Maskey, Mr Milne, Mr Murphy, Ms Ní Chuilín, Mr Ó hOisín, Mr Ó Muilleoir, Mr O'Dowd, Mrs O'Neill, Mrs Overend, Mr Patterson, Mr Rogers, Ms Ruane

Tellers for the Noes: Mr McCartney, Ms Ruane

The following Members voted in both Lobbies and are therefore not counted in the result: Mr Anderson, Mr Bell, Ms P Bradley, Mr Buchanan, Mrs Cameron, Mr Campbell, Mr Clarke, Mr Craig, Mr Douglas, Mr Dunne, Mrs Foster, Mr Frew, Mr Givan, Mrs Hale, Mr Hamilton, Mr Hilditch, Mr Irwin, Mr Lyons, Mr McCausland, Mr I McCrea, Mr D McIlveen, Miss M McIlveen, Lord Morrow, Mr Moutray, Mr Newton, Mrs Pengelly, Mr G Robinson, Mr Ross, Mr Storey, Mr Weir

Question accordingly negatived.

Clause 1 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 2 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Long title agreed to.

Mitchel McLaughlin (Speaker, South Antrim)

That concludes the Consideration Stage of the Assembly Members (Reduction of Numbers) Bill. The Bill stands referred to the Speaker.

Emma Little-Pengelly (DUP, Belfast South)

I beg to move

That the Departments Bill [NIA Bill 70/11-16] do now pass.

This is a very short Bill, consisting of only three clauses and two schedules. Yet, it is a Bill that will have significant implications for the way that our institutions do business in the future. In moving the Bill at Second Stage, I spoke about how, at the heart of 'A Fresh Start: The Stormont Agreement and Implementation Plan', there is a common commitment to a better way of doing business together. One of the ways that the agreement aims to achieve that is by progressing the reduction in the number of Departments from 12 to nine in time for the 2016 Assembly election.

Of course, reform of the structures of government here has been an issue for a long time. In 2012, the Assembly and Executive Review Committee produced a report on the reduction in the number of Departments that identified areas of commonality broadly comparable to the departmental restructuring now being put in place. The policy proposals underpinning the Bill were the subject of detailed consideration during the process that led to the Stormont House Agreement in December 2014. That agreement determined on a nine-Department model to be established in time for the 2016 election, with the future allocation of departmental functions to be agreed by the parties. The Executive discussed departmental restructuring on several occasions in early 2015 and decided on the names and responsibilities of the future Departments. Those names are reflected in the current Bill.

In a statement to the Assembly on 2 March 2015, the First Minister announced the decisions that had been reached by the Executive on the new departmental structures in consequence of the Stormont House Agreement. He set out a future model of nine Departments with all the powers, functions and services of the current 12 Departments. The allocation of responsibilities was further refined during the talks process that led to the publication of 'A Fresh Start' on 17 November 2015.

'A Fresh Start' offered a way forward on a range of challenging issues and enabled us to look forward to a period of greater cooperation.

With institutional reform, it reaffirmed the commitment to reduce the number of Departments from 12 to nine in time for the 2016 Assembly election and provided greater clarity on the functions of the nine future Departments. It also committed to having a Departments Bill introduced in the Assembly by the end of November 2015.

In fulfilment of that commitment, the Departments Bill was introduced in the Assembly on 30 November 2015. Its purpose is to create a statutory framework for the new model of nine Departments. It sets out the names of the future Departments and makes necessary changes to the Departments (Northern Ireland) Order 1999, which provides the basis for the current departmental system. However, important provisions of the 1999 Order on the legal status of Northern Ireland Departments generally and on the exercise of their functions were not affected by the Bill.

As I said, it is a short Bill that now consists of three clauses and two schedules. Clause 1 renames seven existing Departments and dissolves three Departments — DEL, DCAL and DOE — as required to establish the new structures. There is no reference to the Department of Education and the Department of Justice, which are not affected by the Bill. It applies the Departments (Northern Ireland) Order 1999 to the new set of nine Departments.

Clause 2 references schedule 2, which contains essential repeals. Clause 3 gives the title of the Act and arrangements for the commencement of clauses 1 and 2 on a day or days to be appointed by the First Minister and deputy First Minister.

Clauses 1 and 2 are likely to be commenced very shortly after the election in May 2016. Schedule 1 lists all nine future Departments under the titles that they will carry from 2016. Schedule 2 repeals provisions in the Departments (Northern Ireland) Order 1999, as subsequently amended, and in two other Acts that added the names of the Departments to the Departments Order. It has the effect of removing references to the outgoing 12-Department model.

On 8 December 2015, a motion for the Bill to be progressed by accelerated passage was debated in the Assembly, with junior Minister McCann and I having previously attended and gained the support of the Committee for the Office of the First Minister and deputy First Minister to the request. During the accelerated passage debate, it was recognised that progression of the Bill, as with other Stormont House Agreement matters, became possible only as a result of the consensus that had been reached on 'A Fresh Start' a few weeks previously. We had moved immediately to have the Bill introduced in the Assembly, consistent with the commitment to do so by the end of November 2015. There was only limited Assembly time available before dissolution in March 2016. The Bill has to complete its passage in sufficient time for statutory processes, including the debate and affirmative motion relating to the separate transfer of functions order, so it was necessary for us to seek accelerated passage. The Assembly agreed and voted with cross-community support to allow the procedure.

The accelerated passage debate was followed by the Bill's Second Stage on the same day. That suggested that there was broad support for the principles of the Bill. No amendments were tabled at the Bill's Consideration Stage on 19 January 2016, and the Bill's clauses and schedules were voted unopposed to stand part of the Bill.

The Bill's Further Consideration Stage was taken yesterday, when two ministerial amendments were agreed. Those were purely technical adjustments that were needed to maintain consistency with the Public Services Ombudsman Bill, which has now reached its concluding stages in the Assembly.

I take this opportunity to thank all those who have contributed, through their support and through constructive debate, in getting the Bill to this point. It will help to put into effect the decisions taken by the Executive on restructuring. The Bill will create the framework for the most extensive reorganisation of the departmental system since 1999. Its passage at this time will help to ensure a leaner, more streamlined and efficient administration from the outset of the new mandate. I commend the Bill to the Assembly.

Alex Maskey (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle. I apologise on behalf of the Chairperson and the Deputy Chairperson of the Committee for the Office of the First Minister and deputy First Minister. They are unable to attend this morning, and I have been asked to speak on behalf of the Committee on the Final Stage of the Departments Bill. I thank the junior Minister for her opening remarks and welcome the Final Stage of the Bill.

At its meeting on the 30 November last, junior ministers McCann and Pengelly briefed the Committee on the Departments Bill and the rationale for seeking to progress it through the accelerated passage procedure. As has been said, during that meeting we heard that the reduction in the number of Departments from 12 to nine will provide for a leaner, more streamlined and efficient Administration. For example, there will be fewer Ministers, departmental hierarchies, as they have been described — those are not my words — permanent secretaries, central management units and press offices.

The dissolution of three Departments will involve the reallocation of their existing functions, and there is to be some additional rearrangement of the functions of others. Members will be aware that those details are not dealt with by the Departments Bill. Instead, the reallocation of statutory functions will be provided for in a separate transfer of functions order. The Committee received a briefing on that draft order from departmental officials at its meeting on 27 January. As a Committee, we will give the matter further consideration at our meeting, along with comments from other Statutory Committees. The Committee aims to convey its views on the proposed order and, indeed, the views expressed by other Committees, to OFMDFM by 12 February, as requested.

(Mr Principal Deputy Speaker [Mr Newton] in the Chair)

The Bill before us for Final Stage is, therefore, simply about dissolving three existing Departments and renaming some others. Whilst some Members expressed concern at the lack of time to scrutinise the Bill, it is fair to say that there was general support for its principles. On behalf of the Committee, I support the Bill.

Paul Frew (DUP, North Antrim)

I, of course, support the Departments Bill. As I have said before, I think that it is a good move and a great thing for the Assembly, the Government and the people of Northern Ireland, as it will go some way to streamlining government. I hope that it will go some way towards breaking down the silo mentality that we have in some of our Ministers and parties and lead to a more streamlined, focused Government all going in the one direction, as opposed to what we have sometimes witnessed and experienced, whereby parties go their own way on solo runs.

It will not happen without Ministers making hard decisions. I share many of the frustrations of other Members, and, over the last number of years, we have seen at first hand that all our people suffer when Ministers do not make hard decisions. We are in the House and Ministers are in the Executive to make hard decisions, and I would like to see that happening more quickly and efficiently.

I hope that the Bill will not be the end. My party has fought hard and struggled long to get a reduction in the number of MLAs and a reduction in the number of Departments. We would like to go further, but we will bank what we have in this mandate and move on accordingly. We will not let up, and our energy will not reduce in trying to meet the aims and objectives of the DUP in that regard. We will push on to get to a point at which we have a voluntary coalition with a proper opposition. I will leave it there. I welcome the Bill.

Andy Allen (UUP, Belfast East)

The Ulster Unionist Party supports a reduction in the number of Departments. We want to see a more effective, efficient and streamlined Administration in Northern Ireland in order to deliver real change and make a positive difference to the lives of the people. We are content to support the Bill, which will reduce the number of Departments from 12 to nine and which will be the biggest restructuring since 1999.

It is a short Bill, but it will be far-reaching in its implications and consequences. Its passage through the Assembly should be relatively uncontentious and the real meat will no doubt be at a later stage when we come to debate the transfer of functions and decide what the exact responsibilities of each Department should be. That, however, is for another day, and we are content to support the Bill.

Chris Lyttle (Alliance, Belfast East)

The Alliance Party has a long-standing manifesto commitment to supporting the reduction in the number of Departments, on this occasion from 12 to nine, in time for the Assembly election in 2016.

We support the Bill and welcome its progress to Final Stage, hopefully, because it will introduce more efficient, effective government and will allow us to make savings that we can invest in better-resourced public services for the good of everyone in Northern Ireland. We also believe that we need to see further legislation that could better mandate cooperation and collaboration between all Departments. Ultimately, as other MLAs have mentioned today, we need to see more collaboration and better will between Ministers so that we can have a truly effective power-sharing Government for the common good of everyone in Northern Ireland.

A number of MLAs have mentioned the importance of the transfer of functions order, which will deal with the specific transfer of functions in addition to what we are dealing with today, which is the number of Departments and the naming of Departments. I realise that is not up for debate today, but I would like to put on record my concern about the time given for consideration of the order, which a number of MLAs have consistently mentioned as being the most significant part of this change. The OFMDFM Committee was presented with the draft order on Wednesday 27 January, giving us a little over two weeks to respond by the deadline of Friday 12 February. This relates to something that a number of MLAs have referred to as the most extensive reorganisation of government in Northern Ireland since 1999. As MLAs, we are being given a little over two weeks to consider the detail of the transfer of functions order. I do not think that is acceptable. It is an extremely short time, and there has been no public consultation on the order. MLAs and relevant Committees have a serious task ahead to respond robustly to that transfer of functions order, which will be laid in the Assembly as an affirmative resolution. We will be given the opportunity only to yea or nay the order. That is not good government or a fresh start to government.

We need to see changes to allow the Assembly and its Committees to properly scrutinise something of such significance. However, we welcome the reduction and the process at this stage of the Bill, and we will support it today.

Robin Newton (DUP, Belfast East)

I am happy to call Mr Alex Attwood, but he was not in his place when he ought to have been. There will be a concession this time.

Alex Attwood (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast West)

I thank the Deputy Speaker for that concession, and I apologise to the House. I was delayed upstairs at another meeting. I will just make three or four points.

First, as everybody will acknowledge, a reduction in Departments is only a reduction in Departments. It is nothing more or less. It does not follow from the reduction in Departments that we will have efficient and effective government. What we will have is fewer Departments with more functions. You hope that, because of that and because of the evolution of our democratic structures generally, they will end up being more efficient and effective, but it does not follow that what we are doing today leads to anything, unless the evidence is there to back it up in the next mandate.

With the reduction of MLAs, whenever that happens, the reduction in Departments, which is now happening, and, we hope, on the far side of this afternoon's debate, a move further towards having in law an opposition in the Chamber, we need to ensure that we manage the internal democracy of the Good Friday Agreement in a way that does not put some of the reasons why we had the Good Friday Agreement in jeopardy. Whilst we may be changing systems and structures in government, this is not the time to go further down the road in the way that some suggest. We will touch on that this afternoon and in subsequent debates.

Another point of caution based on my experience of government is that there is potential for the people who populate the higher levels of government and will lead the new Departments to argue that, as we now have larger Departments with more functions, we have to leave that to bed in. There is a risk that — I am picking this up already — the bigger Departments could lead, in the short term, to a degree of paralysis as those Departments settle themselves and embed into the wider life of government. While there are many good officials, there is a tendency at some levels of government management to err on the side of caution and conservatism. As I said, I make that point because I am picking it up that, in some places in government, at a senior management level the scale of what senior managers are about to undertake in terms of having wider functions in fewer Departments is already being used as an argument to tread slowly, when the people of Northern Ireland are looking for government to tread boldly. Too often, in too many Departments, that has not been the character of devolution over the last 10 years.

I concur with Mr Lyttle's point. It will be difficult to make this point, because it is not really that relevant to today, but it is a related matter. When the transfer of functions order comes to the House, it will be by way of affirmative resolution, which means that you take it or leave it and you will not have the opportunity to change it. There are issues around the transfer of functions order when it comes to individual Departments that, on the face of it, do not make much sense, yet we will not have the opportunity to amend it. That is the nature of the democratic processes of the House, but we will not have the opportunity to amend it. Indeed, when OFMDFM officials brought the processes around this to the attention of the OFMDFM Committee last week, as Mr Lyttle indicated, the Committee agreed, as far as I can recall, that individual parties rather than Committees would be given the opportunity to respond to what may or may not be in the transfer of functions order. That is inevitably the consequence of doing all this work very quickly as we run down to the end of the mandate, but what does that mean?

We have a situation now arising — this was touched on at Question Time yesterday — where significant functions of OFMDFM are going to the Department for Communities, but OFMDFM will retain the power of appointment of the heads of the public bodies that will be part of the responsibilities of other Departments — to name two, the Commissioner for Older People and the Children's Commissioner.

John Dallat (Social Democratic and Labour Party, East Londonderry)

Will the Member give way?

Alex Attwood (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast West)

Yes.

John Dallat (Social Democratic and Labour Party, East Londonderry)

Does the Member agree that, in dismantling what is called the scaffolding of this place, there is a danger that we dismantle the structures that were embodied in the Good Friday Agreement, which sought to give ownership of this place to the wider community through the Civic Forum and other institutions? Does he also agree that Stormont is not Wales, Scotland or England, where democracy is quite different, and we still need to embrace the widest possible support for these institutions, which, to some degree, are still in their infancy?

Alex Attwood (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast West)

I very much agree with what Mr Dallat said. People should listen to Mr Dallat. He is about to leave the Chamber, and he is one of the wisest, most experienced and longest-standing politicians in Northern Ireland. Those points should be taken fully on board, not least because the reasons, the sentiments and the principles behind the structures of the Good Friday Agreement that were, in our view, falsely changed at St Andrews and then further changed with the devolution of justice were born of decades of bad experience, bad politics and a denial of democratic standards to too many people in this part of Ireland. That is why those structures were created. Given that they were born as a consequence of decades of misrule, we should be careful about how far we go and how quickly we go in changing the structures born of that experience, unless we are convinced that the current experience of our people of parties, of government and of democracy in Northern Ireland is such that they should be changed.

To go back to the point that I was making before Mr Dallat's intervention, this Chamber cannot change the transfer of functions order. Therefore, we will have to take it or leave it that, when functions go to one set of Departments, OFMDFM retains the power of appointment for those senior public personnel. At the Committee, the officials could only name one example of why that was the case. Indeed, it was me who had to prompt the officials to remind them that there was actually at least one other case — namely, the appointment of Victims' Commissioner — where OFMDFM had that responsibility. Why keep the power of appointment over the Older People's Commissioner and the Children's Commissioner when you give every other responsibility in that area of our life lock, stock and barrel to a different Department?

You would wonder why that one power is retained by one office, when everything else is given to the Department for Communities — mindful, of course, that in the abortive negotiations on legacy matters, which the junior Minister will be very familiar with, if there was something that seemed to emerge, it was that OFMDFM would not appoint the Historical Investigations Unit (HIU) director. On one hand, it seems that OFMDFM, or the DUP and Sinn Féin, are moving away from having power of appointment in those negotiations but, when it comes to the transfer of functions, they retain it. I do not understand what that is all about, so maybe the junior Minister, or her officials, might want to explain it sometime or other because, to me, they did not seem to give a very convincing explanation when they were at Committee.

Emma Little-Pengelly (DUP, Belfast South)

I am grateful for the contributions that we heard today and I will deal with those before making my final remarks about the Bill. I will attempt to clarify any queries that have been raised, but I should highlight that I do not intend to get into the substance of the transfer of functions order issues, as those matters have the option to be aired in the Chamber in due course.

Regarding Mr Alex Maskey's comments on behalf of the Committee for the Office of the First Minister and deputy First Minister, I welcome the Committee's support. I also welcome the remarks by Mr Andy Allen about his support for further streamlining. I am very pleased to be able to stand here today to confirm the delivery of these measures that will help to support better streamlining of our Departments.

A range of other matters was raised by my colleague Mr Paul Frew, Mr Chris Lyttle and Mr Alex Attwood. Turning first to Mr Frew's comments; I absolutely agree. This is a significant step but it will only work with dedication and hard work. We need to break down the silos within Departments, and we need to push forward for a better way of working.

Mr Lyttle echoed many of the sentiments of the comments from Mr Frew and Mr Attwood. We absolutely agree that these measures are welcome and necessary but they will not resolve everything. We have been very clear: we want to see better processes; we want to see better collaboration and cross-departmental, cross-policy working; and we want to see an increased focus on outcomes, ensuring that all we do focuses on improving people's lives. We also want a focus on delivering excellent public services for all. Today, this piece of legislation and the reforms that we are bringing in are a critical and important step in making that happen.

On his specific points about the transfer of functions order, as I said, I am not going to get into the detail of that. I understand that it was sent to the Committee on 19 January, not 27 January, for consideration, and I highlight to him that, although there is considerable detail in that order, it has been clear that there are only a small number of issues on which people have a range of different views. I suspect that the Committee will focus on that small range of issues in due course. Certainly, the organisations involved in those, should they be arm's-length bodies or others, have communicated their concerns and issues and have already brought about some changes in relation to them, up to the point of the transfer of functions order.

In relation to the specific comments by Alex Attwood, I can confirm to the Member that this work must happen. I know that from my experience of working with a couple of key policy areas, as special adviser and, now, as junior Minister. Those two examples are the Delivering Social Change agenda and the social investment fund. Both of those big policy areas were cross-departmental. They have a number of different policy objectives, touching on a number of different Departments and agencies, and they were incredibly difficult to bring about because of that. We have faced this in the Office of the First Minister and deputy First Minister. We are convinced that, in order to find a new way of working and to bring about better outcomes and changes, this work must happen. It is worth the difficulties that we face but it requires a change of culture for officials, for the way that Departments do business and also, perhaps, in the way that Ministers speak to, and work with, one another in bringing forward collaborative policies and initiatives with, perhaps, collaborative working on funding.

I thank Members again for their contributions to the Final Stage debate on the Departments Bill and for the issues they have raised. It is only a short Bill, but it is one that will have significant implications for how our institutions do business in the future. Reform of the structures of government here is overdue. It has featured as a Programme for Government commitment since 2011. The Assembly and Executive Review Committee carried out a review in 2012 and identified areas of commonality broadly reflective of our current proposals. Together with the reduction in the number of MLAs, which we are also legislating for, this shows our commitment to a leaner and more efficient structure of government here. This is a good day for government in Northern Ireland. This a good day for a better way of doing business, and it is a good day for delivery.

Question put and agreed to. Resolved:

That the Departments Bill [NIA Bill 70/11-16] do now pass.

Mervyn Storey (DUP, North Antrim)

I beg to move

That the Rates (Amendment) Bill [NIA Bill 75/11-16] do now pass.

Before providing Members with a recap of the content of the Bill in its final form, I will briefly take the opportunity to thank Members for the support that has been shown for the passage of the Bill through the Assembly and the Finance and Personnel Committee for all the work that has been undertaken to date. I look forward to continuing that working relationship.

Yet again, we have an example of a piece of legislation that has come through the House with good practice in the relationship between the Committee, which has a statutory responsibility to scrutinise legislation, and the Members of the House, who have a duty to ensure that they are content with the legislation brought forward.

As I said in earlier debates on the Bill, I, along with many other Members, would have preferred that it had been possible for the Bill to have been progressed by normal means. However, factors outside my Department’s control contributed to the need for accelerated passage. I thank Members for the efficiency with which they have conducted affairs at this busy time for the House.

As I have already explained during previous debates, and as Members will be aware from their consideration, the Bill is short, and I trust that that has facilitated Members' consideration. I see the Bill as the conclusion of a series of fundamental changes to the rating system since devolution was re-established.

The House can be proud of its work on rating matters, including the delivery of an Executive review of rating that implemented a series of critical measures between 2008 and 2010; the implementation of intervention measures during the economic downturn; a non-domestic revaluation; and adjustments to respond to the reorganisation of local government. The non-domestic review will ensure that the new Executive continues that work with a renewed evidence base, which is vital.

I turn to the detail of the Bill, which makes some final adjustments in respect of commercial rating. First, there is the sport and recreation provision, which I have already mentioned. By amending the article 31 sports and recreation exemption in the Rates (Northern Ireland) Order 1977, the final version of the Bill provides a power for the Department to provide full rate relief for many sports clubs, subject to conditions. The conditions that I have in mind are that the club in question should be unlicensed and registered as a community amateur sports club. Following the outcome of further consultation, I will set these out in regulations, subject to affirmative resolution, after assurance was sought that they would be brought to the Assembly.

This approach recognises the competition issues that have already been raised with my Department and the Finance Committee by the hospitality sector. I know that this does not satisfy everyone in the House and that many sports clubs with bars feel that they are disadvantaged by the measure. We also need to be mindful of business interests when we take forward policy in this area. Aside from this being the right thing to do, I also need to protect the Department from the risk of challenge should we wish to adopt a more lenient policy. That said, I know that there are community amateur sports clubs that operate a small bar for members and visiting teams after a match, and I am sure that my successor will be happy to review that issue at a later stage. I do not think, therefore, that there is any way we can develop a balanced, sound, effective and workable policy to allow some clubs with bars to get 100% rating relief and for the regulations to be taken through the Assembly by September, as I noted in my comments at Further Consideration Stage. Policy may well develop in this area over the next mandate, informed by the ongoing review of rating policy.

There is one other point that I would like to make about rating relief for sports clubs, and that concerns the amendment carried yesterday, which at a stroke extends the list of prescribed sports to pigeon racing — the issue almost had us all in flight. There are lessons to be learned on due process in policymaking from the short but eventful journey of this Bill. One is starting to discern that Members do not apply the same standards to private Member's Bills and tabled amendments as they do to Bills from Departments. That leads to poor policy, and Members need to remember that rates revenue pays for vital public services; there is a knock-on effect where that revenue is reduced; and some standards need to be brought to bear on taxation policy. My party took the exceptional step of opposing the private Member's Bill with a petition of concern during its passage through the Assembly. That was on the grounds that proper consultation had not taken place and that there was an alternative, and more appropriate, legislative vehicle available for changing policy.

On the face of it, the pigeon racing amendment is probably a worthy measure, but it could and should have been subject to consultation and taken forward through a change in the regulations containing the list of prescribed sporting activities — not as part of this primary legislation.

Everyone outside my party voted for the amendment because, of course, no one wanted to appear to be against it. That is all too easy, and, forgive me for saying it, but it is not the way that we should be making laws. We need to reflect on what has happened, but, as the saying goes, we are where we are.

The second policy contained within clause 2 came as a result of a suggestion from the business community. Thankfully, this amendment has proved a lot less problematic. This provision will ensure that, where shopfronts or shop-window displays are used in empty retail premises, the shop owner will effectively continue to receive 50% empty property relief. This measure is novel and unique to Northern Ireland. For this reason, it is time bound within the primary legislation but can be easily extended if the policy proves successful. I thank Members, in particular Ms Hanna, who recognised the innovative nature of this measure, which builds on other positive policies delivered during this mandate, such as the empty shops rates concession.

In summary, this is a short Bill that helps amateur sports clubs and shopping areas by providing further rates concessions. I look forward to Members' support in ensuring that the Bill clears its Final Stage. I commend the Bill to the House.

Daithí McKay (Sinn Féin, North Antrim)

Go raibh maith agat, a Phríomh-LeasCheann Comhairle. If I can, I will make some personal comments and comments from a party perspective before speaking on behalf of the Committee. I first undertook to introduce legislation to reduce the rates burden on amateur sports clubs three years ago. The end result after the regulations are introduced, three years and two Bills later, will be a better deal for amateur sports clubs. I would not say that it is a fair deal, but it is a better deal. I welcome the fact that we will see the new regulations in place in the coming months.

Community and amateur sports clubs without bars will benefit to the tune of a maximum of £750,000. That will cover pitches, clubrooms, storage facilities and sports club stands. The clarity provided by Brian McClure on that is very welcome. From the consultation that I carried out for the private Member's Bill, I know that there is a lot of confusion amongst clubs about what is rated, what is not rated, and what relief is applied in the present system, so that clarity is very welcome. I look forward to the targeted consultation that will take place in the coming weeks regarding amateur sports clubs rates. I welcome the commitment from the Minister and the Department to review the issue of clubs that run a small bar to serve a few pints and operate on a much smaller scale than some of the cases that were highlighted to the Finance Committee by Pubs of Ulster. Again, I thank the Minister for his cooperation with me in recent weeks during the passage of the Bill.

As for the Committee perspective, I welcome the opportunity to briefly reflect on the work of the Finance Committee in relation to the Bill. Admittedly, because of the absence of a Committee Stage, the scrutiny has been fairly cursory in nature. Nonetheless, I believe that the work of the Committee prior to the introduction of the Bill has facilitated stakeholders in airing some key issues for consideration. This was especially so in the evidence sessions with the sporting bodies and hospitality sector in relation to the provisions in clause 1. This work has, in turn, helped to inform the subsequent passage of the Bill through the House. Whilst, ideally, a Committee Stage would have enabled some of the policy issues to be bottomed out at this point, the Finance Committee recognised the merit of ensuring that the passage of the Bill is completed before the end of the mandate. With that in mind, and having received the necessary assurances from the previous Minister, the Committee gave its unanimous support to accelerated passage.

Turning specifically to the envisaged regulations under clause 1 to provide enhanced rate relief to prescribed sports clubs, I welcome the enabling power in the Bill and believe that it will result in tangible benefits for the wider community. Given the complexities around the issues to be considered on the scope of the enhanced relief, it will be important for the various stakeholders to input to the forthcoming consultation on the regulations. There will also be a need for the successor Finance Committee to actively engage in this process, with a view to helping inform and influence the development of the regulations that will flow from clause 1.

The provisions under what is now clause 3, which applies a disregard to the commercial use of window displays, are seen by Committee as a positive and innovative initiative given the challenges facing the commercial sector. In more general terms, we, as a devolved Assembly, must continue to look for innovative measures that help to support and nurture businesses in and around our towns. Therefore, I welcome the review of the non-domestic rating system and look forward to the outputs from that and seeing how those will translate into concrete proposals that will benefit the wider economy. In so doing, we will, of course, need to ensure that the revenue-raising potential of the rating system is utilised judiciously for the benefit of the public.

The new clause 2, in regard to pigeon racing, has not been considered by the Committee, and it does not have a view on it. However, I take the opportunity to congratulate Mr Cree and Mr Swann on what has turned out to be a bit of a coup in terms of the amendment. On behalf of the Committee, I support the Bill.

Ian McCrea (DUP, Mid Ulster)

In respect of the Bill and the work of the Committee, alongside that of the Minister and his officials, if nothing else, it has certainly been evidenced that, where people are of a similar mind, we can get business done and deliver something of benefit to our community. A lot of debate and discussion has happened around amateur sports clubs with the sector and officials and whatnot in the Committee. Whilst the Chair does not believe it to be a fair deal, when it is realised and put into practice, the benefits that the community amateur sports clubs will see as a result of the change in legislation will be welcomed.

Carrying on from the Member's final remarks, I think we got a lesson yesterday on pigeon racing; I learned things that I never knew. I learned that pigeons are used as a means of dealing with gang culture in America. If that is the case, whilst we maybe do not have the gang culture that they have in some parts of America, who knows what this will do for the future of pigeon racing in Northern Ireland and the benefits that it will have in combating criminal gangs and whatnot? Maybe we will see them all going out of business. Maybe they should have introduced this some time ago and we would not have had the struggle in Northern Ireland over the last 40 years. Nonetheless, maybe we will see a pilot scheme happening at some stage soon in Northern Ireland. Hopefully, it will deal with the culture of crime and whatnot that we have. In respect of the community amateur sports side of things, it is to be welcomed.

The provisions on window displays and the 50% rate relief is a good news story that the Assembly will send out today. I think that Claire Hanna said in a previous debate that we should not want this type of measure and that we should be trying to ensure that our shops are filled and we do not need to provide this rate relief for empty shops. However, it is trying to show the business community, which has struggled over the last number of years, that the Assembly is listening and will do what it can, where possible, under the constraints that it has financially, to help that community. It is certainly something that will be welcomed across our town centres.

For a number of years, I was on Cookstown District Council, which successfully marketed our town with the "Cookstown, Looking Good, Looking Great" slogan. This legislation will bring even more benefits than that strategy. For example, with empty shops, if there is some form of advertising on the windows and the owners receive the 50% rate relief, it will help. All in all, I commend the Minister for bringing the Bill through the House. He had little to do with it in its early stages, but he certainly had plenty to do with it as it went through. It is good legislation, and people will see the benefits as soon as it is introduced.

Gerard Diver (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

I welcome the opportunity to contribute to the debate at the Final Stage of the Rates (Amendment) Bill.

As has been outlined, there are two substantive clauses in the Bill, and the SDLP is supportive of the Bill in general. My colleague Claire Hanna made a significant contribution to the debate and referenced the use of accelerated passage. We are content with the use of accelerated passage, but we urge caution on its use generally, as, in our considered view, it does not give legislation the scrutiny that we should aim for in the House.

The Bill had two clauses when it was first introduced in the House. We had the addition of clause 1A yesterday to include pigeon racing, and we flocked to support it when it was voted on. Perhaps we will all end up being amateur ornithologists after this.

The first clause provides for a power to enhance rates relief for community amateur sports clubs. That is subject to criteria that will be prescribed in subordinate legislation and subject to affirmative resolution in the Assembly.

The second clause enables commercial window displays to be disregarded from occupation for rating purposes. As we heard at Committee Stage, that clause was mainly proposed by the business sector. I agree with other Members that its inclusion shows that the Assembly is responsive to the needs of the business community and that the Department has made some efforts in that regard. The measure is untried anywhere else in the UK, and it is time-bound in the new clause until 31 March 2017, with the potential for extension. Obviously, we hope that it will be successful.

The law on rates already provides for 80% relief in the case of charitable purposes. The Bill proposes to extend that to community and sporting clubs, and we welcome that. A private Member's Bill was introduced during this mandate, the thrust of which was that community and sporting clubs should have 100% rates relief. The SDLP supported the principles of that Bill and the proposals in the Bill before us today.

The hospitality sector raised competition issues with the proposals in the private Member's Bill. Those concerns were over the fact that any proposal to enhance sport and recreation relief to 100% could place licensed sporting clubs, particularly those with an alcohol licence, in a very advantageous position. The train of thought was that that advantageous position would have a large effect on other businesses working in that sector. Those concerns were outlined to the Committee on a number of occasions. The issues over the sale of alcohol and profitability should not be a barrier to the progression of relief. It is for that reason that we supported the Sinn Féin amendments at Consideration Stage and Further Consideration Stage.

As was referenced at Second Stage, in England and Wales registered community amateur sports clubs receive 80% relief on the rates for premises that are wholly or mainly used for the purposes of that club. In Scotland, mandatory rates relief is given to registered charities and registered community and sports clubs where the premises are wholly or mainly for charitable or club purposes. It is right and proper that we too extend rates relief, and I welcome the fact that the Bill has reached its Final Stage.

In reference to clause 2, it is a good idea that we will help owners plagued by vacancy. The measure will not regenerate the local economy with sweeping effect. However, it is a small part of the range of measures that we need to bring forward in the House and that will need to be adopted to help our businesses, many of which are struggling at this very difficult time with the state of the economy. Vacancy rates are still much too high and profitability rates too low.

The SDLP has been supportive of this legislation since it was introduced. It will provide good relief and assistance to organisations whose purpose is not financially driven. I hope that the outstanding issues around the sale of alcohol and profitability will be resolved in the coming mandate.

Leslie Cree (UUP, North Down)

At this stage, everything has been said. I was pleased to be able to help Mr McCrea with his knowledge of things in the west. He certainly needs to get out more, but, again, I will help any time that I can.

This is a good example of where democracy works. There are problems with accelerated passage, but I think that we have demonstrated that democracy, despite what some people may think, is still alive and well in the House. The Chairman covered all of the points in depth. It has been a good example of where a Committee has worked with the Department and produced a good result from both ends. I hope that that will continue. We are happy to support the Bill, as amended. Again, I thank the Minister for the undertaking that he has given us this afternoon.

Mervyn Storey (DUP, North Antrim)

I thank the Members who have made a contribution on the Bill this afternoon. I want to make a number of brief comments.

I want to touch on the point that was made by Mr Diver. Obviously, he made a point about his concern about using accelerated passage and how there was no opportunity for the House to give the scrutiny that was due. However, he and his colleagues went through the Lobbies yesterday to vote for an amendment on which there had been no consultation or due consideration. Even the Chair said that he was not going to comment on the issue.

That brings us back to the issue of pigeons, which were much to the fore. I have to say that I smiled when I noticed that, in a new survey, Northern Ireland ranks as the happiest place in the United Kingdom. The "Top of the morning" feeling peaks in Fermanagh and Omagh. I do not think that that has anything to do with the fact that we will pass legislation in the House today in relation to pigeon clubs; it might have more to do with the fact that we now have a First Minister who is from Fermanagh. I am glad that that has brought happiness to the people of Northern Ireland.

In closing, I want to take the time to thank the Speaker's Office and the Bill Office as well as the Assembly staff and all who have done so much to facilitate the passage of the Bill. I also note and place on record our thanks to the Office of the Legislative Counsel and the staff in the legislative programme secretariat in OFMDFM for their work in supporting my Department through the passage of the Bill. I also thank my officials who have worked tirelessly on the preparation of the Bill and on the extensive deliberations they have had with the Committee. I want to ensure that they are thanked for the work they have done. I also commend the work of the Finance and Personnel Committee. Mr Cree made a valid point: this is an example of how, for all the deficiencies, Bills can come forward in the House, there can be agreement and we can find a solution, even when there are difficulties. I conclude by thanking all who have been involved in the proces and everybody who has helped us to bring the Bill to this stage. I commend the Bill to the House.

Robin Newton (DUP, Belfast East)

Before we proceed to the Question, I remind Members that the Bill requires cross-community support at Final Stage.

Question put and agreed to. Resolved (with cross-community support):

That the Rates (Amendment) Bill [NIA Bill 75/11-16] do now pass.

Robin Newton (DUP, Belfast East)

As there are Ayes from all sides of the House and there are no dissenting voices, I am satisfied that cross-community support has been demonstrated. The Rates (Amendment) Bill has passed.

Mervyn Storey (DUP, North Antrim)

I beg to move

That the draft Public Service (Civil Servants and Others) Pensions (Consequential Provisions) (Amendment) Regulations (Northern Ireland) 2016 be approved.

Schedule 13 to the Pensions Act (Northern Ireland) 2015, introduced in June 2015, now provides for the abolition of contracting out by way of amendment to the Pension Schemes (Northern Ireland) Act 1993. The 2015 Act modifies the definition of cessation date and introduces a specific date of 6 April 2016 for the abolition of contracting out for salary-related schemes.

Members should note that the regulations relate specifically to the Northern Ireland Civil Service pension scheme. However, as Finance Minister, I should inform you that, following my Department's instruction and that of Her Majesty's Treasury, this change to the Pension Schemes (Northern Ireland) Act 1993 will apply to all public-sector pension schemes in Northern Ireland. Indeed, Members will be aware of the debate that took place on 19 January 2016 on the Police Pension (Consequential Provisions) (Amendment) Regulations (Northern Ireland) 2016, which were affirmed without issue.

The changes are technical in nature. They ensure provision for the continued protection of increases in guaranteed minimum pensions for employees who were contracted out of the second state earnings related pension scheme between 6 April 1978 and 5 April 1997. The draft regulations before the House were the subject of a targeted four-week consultation that ended on 16 November 2015, and no responses were received. The regulations were subject to an equality screening exercise, and no equality issues were identified.

On 13 January 2016, the Committee for Finance and Personnel agreed that it was content with the draft regulations. It is with its support that I bring the draft regulations before the House. I therefore commend these modifications to the House.

Daithí McKay (Sinn Féin, North Antrim)

Go raibh maith agat, a Phríomh-LeasCheann Comhairle. The Minister has outlined the purpose of the regulations. These are subject to affirmative resolution because they modify provisions in the primary legislation.

The Committee considered the proposal to make the statutory rule at its meeting on 9 December 2015. Noting that, in response to DFP's short, targeted four-week consultation, the representative trade unions had no objections, the Committee agreed that it was also content with the policy implications of the regulations. The formal statutory rule that is before the Assembly was subsequently considered at the Committee's meeting on 13 January 2016, together with the accompanying report from the Assembly's Examiner of Statutory Rules. The Examiner raised no issues by way of technical scrutiny. The Committee therefore agreed to recommend that the Public Service (Civil Service and Others) Pensions (Consequential Provisions) (Amendment) Regulations (NI) 2016 be affirmed by the Assembly. On behalf of the Committee, I support the motion.

Mervyn Storey (DUP, North Antrim)

Maybe this should be the duration of most debates on changes to legislation. I thank the Chair for his comments and want to place on record my appreciation for the help given when the issue was brought to the Committee for Finance and Personnel. I commend the motion to the House.

Question put and agreed to. Resolved:

That the draft Public Service (Civil Servants and Others) Pensions (Consequential Provisions) (Amendment) Regulations (Northern Ireland) 2016 be approved.

Robin Newton (DUP, Belfast East)

The Business Committee has arranged to meet at 1.00 pm. I propose, therefore, by leave of the Assembly, to suspend the sitting until 2.00 pm. The first item of business when we return will be Question Time.

The sitting was suspended at 12.54 pm.

On resuming (Mr Deputy Speaker [Mr Dallat] in the Chair) —

Oral Answers to Questions — Social Development

John Dallat (Social Democratic and Labour Party, East Londonderry)

Members, questions 13 and 14 have been withdrawn.

Declan McAleer (Sinn Féin, West Tyrone)

1. Mr McAleer asked the Minister for Social Development to outline the work his Department has undertaken following the publication of the final report of the supporting people review. (AQO 9523/11-16)

Maurice (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

The Supporting People review final report included 13 recommendations for improvements to the efficiency and effectiveness of the Supporting People programme. My Department has established an implementation steering group to drive the implementation of the 13 recommendations while working with key partners. I will publish an action plan in March of this year setting out implementation scales for my Department and for our delivery partners, including the Northern Ireland Housing Executive and the Department of Health, Social Services and Public Safety. My aim is to have the implementation process largely complete by March 2018.

Declan McAleer (Sinn Féin, West Tyrone)

Go raibh maith agat. I thank the Minister for his answer. What measures will his Department be taking to implement the recommendation of the Equality Commission report?

Maurice (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

In keeping with all recommendations of the report, my Department will apply itself to all the recommendations. As far as it lies within it — I hope that it is in totality — it will be implementing that aspect of it completely.

Dolores Kelly (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Upper Bann)

2. Mrs D Kelly asked the Minister for Social Development, given that it provides 88,000 childcare places, to outline how he will ensure the future of the women's centre childcare fund, which is due to end on 31 March 2016. (AQO 9524/11-16)

Maurice (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

The women's centre childcare fund was introduced as a temporary emergency funding package, pending the implementation of a coordinated childcare strategy for Northern Ireland. It was established in April 2008 following on from the children and young people's fund as part of an emergency departmental response to ensure that key childcare services provided in women's centres were kept open, pending an Executive decision about their future funding. The fund supports 14 women's centres across the region at a cost of approximately £850,000 per annum.

My Department stepped in over the last number of years to provide funding in a way that has ensured continued delivery of the women's centre childcare fund. I remain committed to that position. My predecessor Minister Storey indicated last year that, in terms of the Budget process, this would be the last year. However, given that we have an OFMDFM childcare strategy that will not come into operation until 2017, there is the issue of what we do in the interim. To that end, my officials recently submitted a bid for funds to DFP; unfortunately, however, it was rejected. This issue remains a priority for me, and I have to work now to ensure that we have a transition that, as far as possible, is not detrimental to the delivery of the service.

Dolores Kelly (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Upper Bann)

I welcome the Minister's commitment, but the people, particularly women, who work in the sector and those who depend upon the service that it provides need some surety and guarantee. We are, after all, in the month of February, and people will be getting redundancy notices shortly. I am sure that the Minister will agree that the service provided promotes social inclusion etc. In exploring other funding options, given that the social investment fund has been unable to spend its money, might that be a source that the Minister could tap into at least to assure women's centres of funding for the year ahead?

Maurice (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

I thank Mrs Kelly for her question. Let me assure her that I am totally committed to that matter. She mentioned the social investment fund. I am not quite sure whether that can be applied there or not, but I assure her that no stone will be left unturned. I accept what she says about the staff all being on their exit notice. That brings a degree of uncertainty. I hope that I will be able to get gap funding, but, at the moment, I cannot give any guarantee, except that I will do my best. I hope that, in this instance, my best is good enough.

Paula Bradley (DUP, Belfast North)

I thank the Minister for his answers so far. I agree with Mrs Kelly on the essential need for more information. I welcome the Minister's commitment to do his utmost to secure that funding for women's centres, but what is his assessment of the work that is supported by the women's centre childcare fund?

Maurice (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

My Department recently commissioned an evaluation of the women's centre childcare fund, which has been an emergency measure since 2008, as I said. The evaluation concluded that the programme provided a wide range of positive impacts in relation to the development and well-being of children and in supporting parents to access services and opportunities.

Before I came into the Department, I was totally committed to this scheme. Now that I am in a position to do something about it, I can assure the Member, and the previous Member who asked the question, that this is something we are going to move — well, not literally heaven and earth, but we are going to make strident moves to ensure that it does not collapse.

Roy Beggs (UUP, East Antrim)

The Minister will be aware that childcare provides an essential service to enable many to move from welfare into employment. In many areas, there may be under-provision of childcare facilities. Does the Minister acknowledge that the staff involved, and the parents currently being supported, will get little comfort from the thought that there is a strategy to be implemented in 2017? What is going to happen before then?

Maurice (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

I thought I answered that. The present scheme has been receiving year-on-year funding from 2008. We are now in 2016 and funding has been available, and is continuing. I am very hopeful that I can continue that funding for a further year. By then, hopefully, the childcare strategy will have kicked in, but that will be a new situation and will be for the Minister at that time. However, I am determined that 2016-17 will be funded, and I hope that I have not overstated that.

Gerry Kelly (Sinn Féin, Belfast North)

3. Mr G Kelly asked the Minister for Social Development to outline the timescale for further progress on the Girdwood community complex in North Belfast (AQO 9525/11-16)

Maurice (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

I would like to confirm my Department's ongoing commitment to the delivery of the agreed master plan conceptual framework in its entirety. My Department is finalising the site infrastructure at Girdwood Park, which has facilitated the delivery by Belfast City Council of its flagship community hub, and the provision by Apex Housing Association of 66 new houses. As the Member will be aware, the Department's infrastructure project includes the provision of a new multisports pitch.

My officials have already been engaging with other statutory bodies and stakeholders in the wider community to take forward important preparatory work for an indoor sports facility and mixed-use economic facilities. Delivery of those elements of the master plan conceptual framework will, of course, be subject to satisfactory business cases and the availability of budget. I am pleased to note that Belfast City Council has set aside £6 million for the development of the indoor sports site, and I am confident that, with cross-party support, the Executive will be able to commence the next phase of delivery in the spending review period beginning in April 2017.

Gerry Kelly (Sinn Féin, Belfast North)

Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as a fhreagraí go dtí seo. I thank the Minister for his answers up to now, and welcome that the Department is still committed to the entire project. Does he have any comment to make on departmental engagement with local communities on the management of the facilities?

Maurice (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

My Department is investing £6 million in essential infrastructure, including roads, services, landscaping and a synthetic pitch to support the wider development at Girdwood Park. This is in line with the agreed conceptual development framework.

This work is scheduled to be complete by March 2016. The infrastructure works will support the Belfast City Council community hub, which recently opened new social housing units by Apex Housing Association that are due to be available around May 2016, and the future development of the remaining sites.

Sydney Anderson (DUP, Upper Bann)

I thank the Minister for his answers so far. He may have touched on this. What plans are there for future housing development on the Girdwood site?

Maurice (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

In line with the agreed conceptual framework, an area of land along Cliftonpark Avenue has been identified for housing. The site is currently not listed for development due to lack of demand. Following the allocation of a social housing scheme on the nearby Oldpark Road by Choice housing association, demand in the area will be reviewed in the coming months. It is envisaged that affordable homes will be delivered on this site.

Alban Maginness (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast North)

I thank the Minister for his interesting reply, and I congratulate him on his appointment. I did work with him before in various guises and I know that he brings a lot to this position. As you know, housing on the Girdwood site has been a contentious issue. How soon will the review that the Department intends to undertake on housing take place, and what progress does the Minister feel might be made in augmenting the proposals for housing on the site?

Maurice (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

I thank the Member for his comments and, as I am aware that it is not his intention to return to the Assembly, I wish him all the best for the future, wherever the future takes him.

On the future of this site, I have to say that, as I am sure he will readily agree, this has been a matter for some debate and discussion over recent times. It has still some distance to go, but my Department is totally committed to the development of the site and the review. I hope to be in a position to come back very soon or whoever is the Minister then should be coming to this, certainly within this calendar year.

Sandra Overend (UUP, Mid Ulster)

4. Mrs Overend asked the Minister for Social Development for an update on the timescale for the transfer of regeneration powers to local government. (AQO 9526/11-16)

Maurice (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

The decision to transfer regeneration and community development powers to local government ultimately rests with the Executive. The new Department for Communities (DFC) will have a much wider range of responsibilities. In this context, it would be prudent to wait until the new functions have been assimilated in the DFC and then the Executive can determine when any of those responsibilities would best be delivered at a local level. The timing would be subject to the successful completion of the legislative process. The fundamental aim of the reform programme remains the same: to transform local government, putting decision-making on local matters in the hands of locally elected representatives. Ultimately, the Executive will decide the way forward in the context of the newly formed Department for Communities.

Sandra Overend (UUP, Mid Ulster)

I thank the Minister for his response. Will he agree that, while there is ambiguity about the timescale for the transfer of these powers to our local councils, they will remain in some sort of limbo and that there should be some sort of commitment to a timescale for the transfer of these powers in the Programme for Government?

Maurice (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

I do agree with the sentiments expressed by the Member that it is important that the uncertainty is dealt with as quickly as possible. I do accept that it is important that we come to this situation as quickly as humanly possible. We had hoped that we would be coming to it in 2016, but the truth of the matter is that we will not be. However, we can look then to 2017 and, hopefully, we will be. I assure the Member that I and my party are totally committed to this, and we will be making every effort to ensure that it happens in as short a timescale as possible.

Gregory Campbell (DUP, East Londonderry)

Will the Minister outline whether the resources originally envisaged to be allocated to local authorities for the important duties that will be transferred across will be reflected in reality?

Maurice (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

Councils had been advised of the budgets anticipated to transfer to them should the Regeneration Bill have successfully completed its legislative passage. Unfortunately, we know that that will not be the case. However, as this is no longer the case, there will be no specific allocation to councils to deliver services to tackle deprivation in 2016. That responsibility remains with my Department.

Karen McKevitt (Social Democratic and Labour Party, South Down)

I congratulate the Minister on his new position; this is my first opportunity to do so.

Mr Campbell has already touched on the resources. Will the budget for the delivery of that function also transfer to local government? What guidance is his Department giving to, and what discussions is it having with, local government in order for it to be ready?

Maurice (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

I thank the Member for her kind remarks and well wishes to me for the future in this Department.

I think that there would be something very amiss if the budget were not transferred at the same time. It has to be, otherwise it will not be an effective form of government. Given that the Executive have only recently agreed the final Budget for 2016-17, I now need to consider the impact that the settlement will have across my Department's remit. Yes, the budget is a very important factor. If it does not go with the powers, why should powers transfer at all?

Chris Lyttle (Alliance, Belfast East)

5. Mr Lyttle asked the Minister for Social Development for an update on funding for independent advice centres. (AQO 9527/11-16)

Maurice (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

Through its community support programme, my Department provides £1·6 million of funding to front-line advice services each year. That is supplemented by approximately £1·9 million from local councils, which then commission front-line advice centres for their local areas. Additionally, my Department provides funding of £1·3 million annually for regional support services for front-line advisers. Budget allocations for 2016-17 have not yet been agreed.

Chris Lyttle (Alliance, Belfast East)

I thank the Minister for his answer. Does he agree that independent advice services provide vital assistance to ensure that people in our community receive the social security assistance to which they are fully entitled? In my constituency of East Belfast, the independent advice centre works on a shoestring budget of £70,000 per year and generates multi-million-pound take-up, to which people are fully entitled. Is the Minister, therefore, willing to follow up on a commitment given by his predecessor to meet the Northern Ireland independent advice service sector and me to ensure that advice centres have adequate resources to achieve what they are able to achieve?

Maurice (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

Mr Lyttle talks about the advice centres having limited resources. I can rub thumbs with him on that: I have a finite budget also. However, I am quite prepared to meet with him and those who provide the service to discuss the issue in the future. As Mr Storey has already given that commitment, I am prepared to stand by it.

Gerard Diver (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

Will the recommendations from the recent Evason panel regarding funding for advice centres be implemented in full? Can people have assurances that they will have high-standard advice on an ongoing basis?

Maurice (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

I thank the Member for his question. I also wish him well, having recently come in to the Assembly in place of, I think, Mr Ramsey.

Professor Evason's report recommended additional funding for front-line advice services of £1·25 million per annum for four years. The Executive have now agreed the implementation of the recommendations, and I have asked my officials to consider how best to take them forward.

Pam Cameron (DUP, South Antrim)

I thank the Minister for his answers so far and welcome him to his new role as Minister for Social Development.

When will the funding for front-line advice services be confirmed?

Maurice (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

I thank my colleague Pam Cameron for her well wishes.

The Budget allocations for 2016-17 have not yet been agreed. Front-line advice providers and local councils will be advised as soon as is humanly possible.

Rosaleen McCorley (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as a freagraí go dtí seo. I thank the Minister for his answers thus far and also congratulate him on his new role.

I, like others, had intended to ask the Minister about the additional resources, but he has already answered that. How confident is he that vulnerable people will be well served in the new arrangements?

Maurice (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

I thank the Member for her well wishes. As for attending to, looking after and providing a service for vulnerable people, I believe that society owes it to them and, as one who has an advice centre, like many others in this Chamber, we deal with those sorts of issues on a daily basis. They are very close to my heart and, if it is down to me to do it, I assure you that it will be done, and there will be no gap in that service.

Adrian McQuillan (DUP, East Londonderry)

6. Mr McQuillan asked the Minister for Social Development how many Northern Ireland Housing Executive dwellings in East Londonderry are inhabitable. (AQO 9528/11-16)

Maurice (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

The Housing Executive has 4,444 properties in the East Londonderry constituency area, which all meet the standard.

Adrian McQuillan (DUP, East Londonderry)

I thank the Minister for his answer and congratulate him on his elevation to the Front Bench. What investment is being made in Housing Executive properties in East Londonderry?

Maurice (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

I thank Mr McQuillan for his well wishes. I suspect that this honeymoon period will end some time, but I will enjoy it while it is happening.

In line with the interim investment planned, the Northern Ireland Housing Executive has five schemes already under way or planned to commence in the next year in East Londonderry worth a total investment of approximately £1·483 million. Further necessary investment has been made in properties in East Londonderry and continues to be made through planned and response maintenance, with around £21 million committed to schemes during the last two and a half years.

John Dallat (Social Democratic and Labour Party, East Londonderry)

Mr Chris Hazzard is not in his place.

Daithí McKay (Sinn Féin, North Antrim)

8. Mr McKay asked the Minister for Social Development, following the recent publication of the Equality Commission's investigation report on the Department for Social Development's compliance with its equality scheme commitments, to outline the progress that has been made by his Department on meeting its equality obligations. (AQO 9530/11-16)

Maurice (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

My Department is continuing to work with the Equality Commission for Northern Ireland to take forward the four recommendations that were made as a result of its investigation. The breaches related to the Department's 2001 equality scheme. No breaches were identified against the current equality scheme. As recently as 22 January, a meeting was held with representatives from the Equality Commission to ensure that the Department was addressing the concerns raised.

On a general note, my Department adheres to its equality scheme and received positive feedback from the Equality Commission on our section 75 annual progress report, which set out the work undertaken to meet our equality obligations in 2014-15.

Daithí McKay (Sinn Féin, North Antrim)

Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. I also congratulate the Minister on his appointment.

Is he satisfied that the current legislative and policy framework on procurement of housing support services in relation to Supporting People is delivering the required outcomes?

Maurice (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

I thank the Member for his well wishes, too. He has asked a very direct question; he asked whether I am satisfied. The answer is as direct, and it is yes.

Sammy Douglas (DUP, Belfast East)

I thank the Minister for his answers so far. Will the Minister outline the current position of the Department's equality scheme work and the work on the housing strategy?

Maurice (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

The Department has published the final version of the housing strategy, alongside a midterm update on the 33 actions in the housing strategy action plan and an updated equality screening exercise. The midterm updates shows that 27 screenings had been completed to date. The action plan update shows that the strategy is delivering on its vision to ensure that everyone has the opportunity to access quality housing at a reasonable cost

Gerard Diver (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

9. Mr Diver asked the Minister for Social Development to outline the funding his Department will provide to increase the building of social and affordable housing. (AQO 9531/11-16)

Maurice (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

I have just approved the Housing Executive’s new social housing development programme for the three-year period 2016-17 to 2018-19. Budgets for the 2016-17 social housing development programme and beyond have yet to be agreed.. However, the Housing Executive has based its indicative programme for 2016-2020 on delivering 8,000 new starts over that period.

The Northern Ireland Co-ownership Housing Association continues to be my Department’s main delivery partner for affordable housing. My Department has secured nearly £95 million of financial transactions capital (FTC) loan funding for the co-ownership scheme for the period from 2015 to 2018-19. It is anticipated that that funding, in conjunction with its private funding, will permit the Northern Ireland Co-ownership Housing Association to deliver over 2,600 additional affordable homes across Northern Ireland.

Gerard Diver (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

I thank the Minister for his assurances. Anybody on the housing list will welcome the fact that new homes are being built. There is debate and consultation about housing associations potentially acquiring former Housing Executive properties. If there is such a policy decision, can current Housing Executive tenants be assured that they will not be detrimentally affected by that process or change?

Maurice (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

I want to be fair to the questioner. That is a question that I want to look at before I give a definitive answer. I think that I am right when I say that that is the case. However, I will come back to you on that and provide a full answer because I recognise that it is an important issue, not only for Members but for tenants and those who are hoping to buy their own homes one day.

George Robinson (DUP, East Londonderry)

I congratulate the Minister on his elevation to his new post. How is housing need calculated?

Maurice (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

I thank the Member for his well wishes, too. It is good that so many are wishing me well, right around the House. I hope that, in the months to come, it will also be that way and that, when I have maybe not delivered something for them in their area, they will still be prepared to wish me well. I suspect that that might not be the case.

Housing need is calculated through a process. As someone who has been a long-time councillor in his area, as I was in mine, the Member will know that that is a subject that keeps coming up. I assure him that there is a very fulsome and robust method that determines how that is done. I will send the Member the exact details. I think that he will be convinced, as I am, that it is a true and trusted method that ensures fairness and equality in the whole scheme.

John Dallat (Social Democratic and Labour Party, East Londonderry)

I call Mr Phil Flanagan for a very short supplementary question.

Phil Flanagan (Sinn Féin, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. I will dispose with wishing the Minister well, if that is your intention.

Can the Minister provide us with an update on how his Department and the Housing Executive are trying to overcome the barriers faced by people who are trying to develop social and affordable housing in rural places like Ederney in Fermanagh, where the waste water treatment plants are full and no further development can be connected?

I genuinely do wish the Minister well; I was only joking.

Maurice (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

I thank the Member for his well wishes, too. He has raised an issue about rural areas that I, too, am concerned about. I am not sure whether he was at the latest development in Fivemiletown the other day, where we have upgraded the sewage treatment works.

Those are the sorts of scheme that we want to see developed. I accept that the infrastructure in certain places prohibits development in rural areas. If the Member knows of an area of great concern to him — he mentioned Ederney — he can contact my office, and I will look into it in person to see how we can ensure that homes are provided for rural communities. Rural communities are as entitled to homes as urban ones.

John Dallat (Social Democratic and Labour Party, East Londonderry)

I am sure that it is superfluous for me to assure the Minister that I did not wish to deprive him of good wishes.

[Laughter.]

The time is simply up for listed questions, and we will now move on to topical questions. Topical question 1 has been withdrawn.

Gordon Dunne (DUP, North Down)

I too welcome the new Minister and thank him for his recent visit to north Down. We are looking for a lot of good things from him.

John Dallat (Social Democratic and Labour Party, East Londonderry)

Is there a question?

Gordon Dunne (DUP, North Down)

T2. Mr Dunne asked the Minister for Social Development, while recognising work to date by DSD, for an update on the regeneration of Bangor town centre, including the long-awaited Queen’s Parade development. (AQT 3422/11-16)

Maurice (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

I thank Mr Dunne again for his good wishes. He is right: I spent a very good day in Bangor last Thursday. It was good to see the sparkle back in Bangor, something, as I said on that day, that had been missing in earlier years. In response to the Member's question, let me say that, over the last three years, my officials have been working in partnership with the council to design, develop and deliver a major £8 million public realm improvement scheme for Bangor. Significant progress has been made to the works programme, and these are due to be completed three months earlier than expected, on 31 March 2016. It is not often that you hear something like that. During my recent visit to Bangor to officially open the YMCA's new premises on High Street, I saw for myself how this substantial investment is already beginning to inject renewed vibrancy into the town centre, making it a modern place to visit and spend time in.

Significant progress has been made on Queen's Parade since my Department stepped in and took direct control of the scheme. In March 2015, my Department obtained planning approval for a scheme that would provide for in excess of 25,000 square metres of floor space. The new development includes a mix of residential, retail, commercial and hotel accommodation, restaurants, cafés, a courtyard plaza and public open space for marine gardens. The plans will complement the public realm works and restore the area as an attractive, vibrant and inclusive place for everyone to enjoy. It will also enhance the town's reputation as a key tourist and shopping destination.

Gordon Dunne (DUP, North Down)

Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. I am assured that your visit has already paid off, but can the Minister clarify the actual start date for Queen's Parade? We would prefer it in writing, Minister. The project has gone on so long, and we would like to see work begin on site as soon as possible.

Maurice (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

I do not know about the writing aspect, but I suspect that whatever I say now will go down in Hansard. I am not sure whether that is enough to satisfy the Member.

The granting of planning permission in March 2015 was a key step in the development process. The next major step is to complete site assembly. The majority of the property is now in the ownership of DSD. My officials have been negotiating with the three remaining property owners for over 12 months to achieve agreement by mutual consent. I do not know whether the Member can assist us with that or not. Negotiations are ongoing. However, it is unlikely that agreement will be reached for all the properties, and the Department has issued notices of intention to vest the remaining properties. My Department has requested a public inquiry into the decision to adopt a development scheme for Queen's Parade and the issue of vesting notices. That is set for 3 February 2016. A final decision on the making and enacting of the vesting order will be made following the public inquiry. My Department is working closely with the council and hopes to appoint a private sector development partner in September 2016 to take forward the proposals. It is estimated that the groundwork will commence about 12 to 18 months after the appointment of the developer.

John Dallat (Social Democratic and Labour Party, East Londonderry)

I call Mr Adrian Cochrane-Watson, who has just got to his place.

Adrian Cochrane-Watson (UUP, South Antrim)

Is this a topical question? Question number 2, Mr Deputy Speaker.

A Member

We are on topicals.

Adrian Cochrane-Watson (UUP, South Antrim)

I apologise, Mr Deputy Speaker. I have been away all morning at a hospital appointment. I do not have a question.

Gordon Lyons (DUP, East Antrim)

T4. Mr Lyons asked the Minister for Social Development what action his Department is taking to deal with housing benefit fraud and what progress has been made. (AQT 3424/11-16)

Maurice (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

The issue of fraud, whether it is housing benefit fraud, social welfare fraud or whatever, is one that my Department and I take very seriously, as should every MLA. I assure the Member that it is very high on our list of priorities because the money taken away by fraud means that there is less to go to those who really deserve it. I assure the Member that, like him, I am concerned about the scale of fraud. Whether it is at a low or a high level, it has to be tackled, and I assure him that it will be tackled.

Gordon Lyons (DUP, East Antrim)

I thank the Minister for his answer. A specific case brought to my attention was that of the resident of a Housing Executive property. She abandoned the property but continued to claim housing benefit and left her dog there to starve to death. Obviously, that is not acceptable on a number of levels. Can the Minister assure me that his Department will take every action possible to ensure that people claiming housing benefit are entitled to it? Will he also assure me that his Department will continue to invest so that action can be taken against housing benefit fraud? As the Minister rightly says, any welfare money that is spent on those who do not need it is taken away from those who do.

Maurice (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

I thank the Member for his question. Frankly, I found the story that he related absolutely horrendous. I say to him and everyone else within the sound of my voice that, if they are aware of any of this sort of behaviour going on, we all have a moral and civic responsibility to report it to the authorities to ensure that it is stamped out immediately.

The estimated level of benefit fraud has reduced from £60·9 million of public money back in 2001 — I took up the conversation in 2001 when I was last in DSD — to an estimated £25·2 million in 2014, with a further estimated £18·4 million lost through housing benefit fraud. My Department has a dedicated team of fraud investigators who work right across Northern Ireland, so there is no let-up on that, Mr Lyons, I assure you. The incident that you reported is horrendous. If you have any information that can help my Department or the police, please speak to us.

Gerry Kelly (Sinn Féin, Belfast North)

Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. In continuance of the warm glow around you, Minister, I add my best wishes as you take up your responsibilities in the Department.

Gerry Kelly (Sinn Féin, Belfast North)

T5. Mr G Kelly asked the Minister for Social Development to outline the areas that will be covered in his Department’s recently announced review of the regulation of the private rented sector. (AQT 3425/11-16)

Maurice (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

I thank the Member for his well wishes. The review that he speaks of will be very comprehensive. It will take in all aspects and, if there are areas that the Member has concerns about or he feels that he could feed into and would like to see considered, we are ready to listen to him and hear what he has to say on this issue.

Gerry Kelly (Sinn Féin, Belfast North)

Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as a freagraí go dtí seo. I thank the Minister for his answer and, indeed, his offer to feed into the review. He said that it would be comprehensive. I ask for some assurance that the antisocial behaviour issue is looked at. As he knows, there are some regulations in the social housing sector that give the ability to deal with that when it happens. At times, perhaps not often, that can destroy a whole street or area. If we could look at that in the private sector, it would be very helpful.

Maurice (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

Antisocial behaviour comes up constantly as one of the big issues that public representatives get through their door, with complaints virtually on a daily basis. I think that the message that antisocial behaviour is not acceptable in this day and age still does not seem to have got out. I want to make it very clear that, as far as my Department and me are concerned, antisocial behaviour has to be tackled head-on. Sometimes, that means putting our heads above the parapet, but that has to be done. I will ensure that, in this review, which, as I have already said, will be comprehensive, antisocial behaviour will be one of the issues looked at from every angle to see how it can be reduced. It would be better if it could be stamped out altogether.

Máirtín Ó Muilleoir (Sinn Féin, Belfast South)

T6. Mr Ó Muilleoir asked the Minister for Social Development about an issue that he would remember from his last stint as Minister, which was the Holylands, where there are continuing efforts to create a family friendly and vibrant community, and, given that, as he knows, the city is changing, with up to 5,000 purpose-built units for students, would he consider revisiting the efforts to regenerate the Holylands as a vibrant community. (AQT 3426/11-16)

Máirtín Ó Muilleoir (Sinn Féin, Belfast South)

Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. Ba mhaith liomsa fosta tacú agus tréaslú leis an Aire as a cheapachán. I also congratulate the Minister on his appointment. Your predecessor tells me that he left a little note for you to deal sympathetically with my questions, so I hope you received that, Minister.

Maurice (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

I did not understand part of the Member's question, but I did take from him that it was well wishes, too. One thing that has struck me since the First Minister appointed me to this Department is the number of people there who remember me. I thought that there was nobody still living to remember me there, it was that long ago.

[Laughter.]

Now that you speak of the Holylands, I do remember, and I have some memories of that. However, I do not remember the details, to be truthful. I think that, if I am going to come up to speed on that one again, you should bring it to my attention, and we will certainly have a look at it. I have listened to it in the news in the past, and I know that there are some quite unsavoury things that have been going on there. Those things need to be looked at and tackled.

Máirtín Ó Muilleoir (Sinn Féin, Belfast South)

Thank you very much, Minister, for your response. I did not mean to spring that on you. I suppose it is topical because St Patrick's Day is coming round, and you will remember that that is always a very tough time for the families and residents of the Holylands. Perhaps, Minister, in the time remaining before Parliament breaks up, I could invite you to come back to the Holylands. Maybe you will visit south Belfast and meet some of the residents. In short, Minister, I presume that you would like to see a vibrant, family friendly community that does not have the sort of antisocial behaviour that we have seen on St Patrick's Day in previous years.

Maurice (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

Yes, I think it would be very good if we could avoid what has happened on St Patrick's Day in previous years. I am not sure whether I can be there before St Patrick's Day. I suspect that, even if I were there, it may not totally influence what is going on or what might go on. Suffice it to say, let us hope that the behaviour that has been witnessed there in the past is not a feature this year, and that people show respect and regard for others.

Paul Frew (DUP, North Antrim)

T7. Mr Frew asked the Minister for Social Development whether Housing Executive maintenance and capital delays are unique to the North Antrim constituency, where there have been massive delays over the last number of years, some of which have lasted for over a year and a half and counting, including roofing schemes in Ballykeel and Harryville and some external works in Cullybackey and Ballymena north; and whether he will investigate these delays. (AQT 3427/11-16)

Maurice (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

I do not think that those delays are unique to North Antrim. Having said that, I do not say that they are on a par with everywhere else. If the Member wants to come and talk to me, write to me or send me a question about it, I will get a look at it and see exactly what is going on in the North Antrim constituency that he cherishes so much. If there is something unique about the delays in North Antrim, we will take action to change it.

John Dallat (Social Democratic and Labour Party, East Londonderry)

Time is up. I remind Members to keep their questions short and then, perhaps, more people will have an opportunity to ask questions.

Oral Answers to Questions — Agriculture and Rural Development

John Dallat (Social Democratic and Labour Party, East Londonderry)

Questions 1 and 9 have been withdrawn.

Adrian Cochrane-Watson (UUP, South Antrim)

2. Mr Cochrane-Watson asked the Minister of Agriculture and Rural Development by how much her Department has reduced the administrative burden on farmers and agrifood businesses since 2007. (AQO 9538/11-16)

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

A well-regulated industry is vital in underpinning trade and, increasingly, it is a strength that the agrifood industry is exploiting in securing new export markets.

Following a joint DARD/DOE review of better regulation in 2009-2010, DARD implemented an action plan, taking forward 61 recommendations, to reduce the administrative burden on the agrifood sector. By 2013, a 10·4% reduction had been achieved. Since 2013, we have continued to make good progress. Most notable is the recent achievement of official brucellosis-free status, allowing the relaxation of controls and leading to savings in compliance costs for the primary production sector of £7 million per annum, as well as £8 million in savings for the taxpayer. Another area where we have progressed is in completion of land eligibility inspections by remote sensing, using satellite imagery rather than by on-farm inspections. In 2015, DARD completed 86% of basic payment scheme inspections using remote sensing.

Despite my desire for a simpler CAP regime, the new schemes are greater in number and more complex to administer. However, my officials are working to ensure that they are as easy as possible to understand, with information and tools available to help farmers and others comply with the least amount of bureaucracy attached as possible. I have also made a separate approach to Commissioner Hogan in Brussels in an attempt to make the penalty regime applied in cases of over-declaration in some schemes as simple as possible. I am pleased that there has been some movement on this with the latest announcements from the Commissioner.

I want to continue to focus on ensuring that complying with rules and accessing services is further simplified. The continued roll-out of enhanced digital services with appropriate support will speed up processing and help customers' businesses to succeed.

Adrian Cochrane-Watson (UUP, South Antrim)

I thank the Minister for her response. However, many farmers will be sorely disappointed that there has been an abject failure by the Department to reduce its own administration costs. Previous targets, such as those contained in the 2007-2011 Programme for Government have now been abandoned. Does the Minister feel that it is acceptable that the total DARD administration bill is now over £45 million centrally in this financial year, as supplied by DFP, compared to a reduction of £5 million five years ago?

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

I note that your party has taken up this issue and run with it in the media, using figures that it has manipulated for its own benefit to try to pull a headline out of it. I am very happy to explain to the Member the difference in the figures that we are talking about. If he is asking me whether I am apologetic for putting more resources into services that help us to deliver farmers' payments, I am not.

Declan McAleer (Sinn Féin, West Tyrone)

Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. I note and welcome that, in the Minister's response, she expressed a desire for less bureaucracy and more simplification. In that context, will she consider making provision for part payments?

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

We all recognise that it has been an extremely difficult year for all sectors across the farming industry. I will do anything I can. A lot of these things are commercial matters and lie outside my Department's control, but some things are within my control and one of them is ensuring that we pay the maximum number of people. Year-on-year, we have seen improvements in the number of people we have been able to pay in December. I want to put on record that I give credit to all the staff, who, in comparison with all other paying agencies on these islands, have outperformed by ensuring that we have paid 96% of people at this stage. I think that all credit is due to the staff involved in delivering that work.

I also indicated, as the Member said, that part payment is an issue that the industry has consistently asked me to look at, and my focus initially was on making sure that we maximised the payments and increased the numbers inspected with remote sensing. Now that we have been able to do that, I have told officials that my intention is to make sure that we can get to a position where we will make part payments, up to 50% of direct payments, on 16 October, following submission of the single application form. That option, as I said, has not been available until now. I think it is good news for the industry going forward that we will be able to come to the scenario where we will be able to make advance payments to about 80% of eligible farmers in October.

That said, us being able to deliver on that promise will very much come down to working with the industry itself. I need more farmers to apply online. The application process for this year is coming up very shortly. My clear message to the industry is this: help me to help you. The more applications we receive online, the better. Ideally, we would want over 70% to be made online. Last year, there was a significant improvement; I think the figure was over 40%. If we can increase that again this year, the Department will be in a position to deliver those part payments in October.

John Dallat (Social Democratic and Labour Party, East Londonderry)

I call Mr Declan McAleer. I am being too generous. I call Mr Jim Allister.

Jim Allister (Traditional Unionist Voice, North Antrim)

If the Minister's blind enthusiasm for the EU permits her, will she undertake to publish a schedule of all the administrative burdens and regulations placed upon the farming community and identify which originate in the EU and which originate in her Department? Will she undertake to do that or would that come too close to exposing the hideous burden that the EU puts upon our farmers?

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

That is not even a problem. I do not have a problem setting out very clearly what legislation we work under within the EU, but I also do not have a problem with publishing the benefits that our industry receives from the EU, particularly the single farm payments, the rural development programme, the Peace programmes — the list goes on. I am very happy to publish all that information because it is important that you look at the situation in the round.

There are diktats from Europe that we find very difficult to administer and that we find are very difficult for the farming industry in particular. Is there room for improvement? Absolutely. It is our job to do that; we are elected to do that job, and our MEPs are elected to do that job. We have a job of work to do in reforming the EU. Let us take on that challenge, and let us not rob our rural industry and agrifood sector of much-needed support.

If you look at the most recent statistics on farm incomes, you will see that, without the subsidy and support, farmers would have been in a negative situation. There would not have been one penny of profit; there would have been a negative loss-making scenario. I think that, when we look at the future within Europe, we need to look at it in the round and at the benefits that are there for our local industry.

Roy Beggs (UUP, East Antrim)

The Minister was unapologetic about increased administrative costs. With a reducing budget and the efficiency savings that we are hearing about, one would expect the administrative burden to go down. Does she accept that farmers expect to get a higher percentage of the funding, rather than it being absorbed by administrative burdens?

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

Farmers and the rural community at large can be very confident in knowing that I have delivered the largest ever rural development programme that has been seen in the North. I think that in itself speaks volumes about my commitment and about how I deliver for farmers and rural dwellers.

Where the admin costs are concerned, I am very happy to provide a breakdown of the figures that have been set out and the £5 million that your party is referring to. It is not as simple as subtracting one figure from another, as your party has done. I am very happy to explain the difference in the baseline figures and the figures that they were compared with. I will provide the stats to you in writing, rather than go through them now, but I can give you the headline figure of £2·5 million for depreciation in Land and Property Services valuation. It is very simply explained. I stand over my point that I am not apologetic about putting in more admin resources to make sure that we paid the maximum number of people their single farm payment in December. We delivered on that, and now 96% are paid as a result of my refocusing and making sure that I had enough people on the front line to be able to deliver the money.

Trevor Lunn (Alliance, Lagan Valley)

3. Mr Lunn asked the Minister of Agriculture and Rural Development what discussions she has had with her counterparts in London and Edinburgh concerning contingency plans in the event of the withdrawal of payments to farmers under the common agricultural policy should the UK vote to leave the European Union. (AQO 9539/11-16)

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

First, a referendum in favour of Brexit would be disastrous for agriculture and rural development in the North because it would hinder access to vital EU markets and lead to reduced agricultural support. That is a point I have made consistently in the House.

As for contingency planning, if there were a Brexit scenario, notification would be submitted to the EU. It would take up to two years following that for a withdrawal to be complete, and I am told that that number of years can be extended. The period between the decision to withdraw and the withdrawal actually taking effect would be used to negotiate the terms of withdrawal from the EU. It would also be used by the Assembly to negotiate with the British Government on what contingency plans might be developed to replace existing EU rules and financial support systems following EU withdrawal.

Over the 2014-2020 EU budget period, pillar 1 payments to our farmers would amount to €2·3 billion. In addition, €228 million of EU funds is devoted to our rural development programme, resulting in a total planned expenditure under CAP of €2·53 billion. Importantly, the Assembly could not maintain this level of funding unless additional funds were provided by the Treasury. The British Government have consistently pushed for reductions in the support going to farmers and rural development under the CAP. They do not regard that spending as value for money, so I believe that the Treasury would be unsympathetic to our calls for some of the money saved from withdrawing as a member state from the EU to be used to maintain support to farmers and rural communities. A significant reduction in direct support would leave many of our farmers in real and long-term financial difficulty. A reduction of funding for farmers and rural communities would have knock-on effects for the environment.

Trevor Lunn (Alliance, Lagan Valley)

I thank the Minister for that answer. Frankly, she has more less answered any supplementary that I might have come up with. However, for the benefit of others who are present, does she agree with me that this would be an absolute disaster for Northern Ireland and that the British Government would have neither the will nor the ability to replace the payments like for like?

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

Yes, I totally agree with that. As I said, we are talking about €2·53 billion of supports for the agrifood sector and rural communities. The current Tory Government have no intention to replace that. We have seen cuts to our block grant year on year. If those are the projections for the future, I do not hold out much hope with the Tories, who have an ideological position opposed to subsidy. They have been trying to reduce year on year. They voted against the financial package in Europe. They voted to reduce the payments that go to the farming and rural sectors. I am not confident about what they would bring into place.

I have consistently said that the biggest concern that the industry has is that there are so many uncertainties. We do not know what the future holds. We do not know what a post-Brexit situation would look like. Without all those certainties, it is hard for anybody to make a rational choice going forward. However, €2·53 billion is significant and speaks volumes on what it means to our local economy, what it means to the agrifood sector and what it means to everybody: if farmers are not subsidised to produce food, all consumers will pay more for food that we will have to import from other countries. Where do we get that from if we cannot trade openly and freely in Europe? We need to consider a number of significant challenges in terms of where we are and how things will be in the future in a Brexit situation.

Gregory Campbell (DUP, East Londonderry)

Does the Minister not agree that talking about nightmare situations in the context of a Brexit position does not help the discussion, which should be a rational discussion of whether the UK and Northern Ireland as part of the UK stay in Europe or leave it? The uncertainty about the financial assistance that may be on offer to our farming communities, which she rightly talked about, exists equally whether we stay in Europe or leave it.

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

I have made my position clear: we need to have a rational discussion. We need to up the ante in having the debate. We have had this discussion at each of my last two or three Question Times. We need a real and meaningful debate around our future, but €2·53 billion of investment in our local economy speaks volumes. Agrifood is the mainstay of our local economy. It is one of the main drivers of growth. The stats around farm incomes that were published towards the end of last week clearly point to the fact that, without that subsidy and that payment going to farmers and rural people, they would be in a negative situation. We need to be serious about what this means.

I think that we all can agree that Europe needs to be reformed — absolutely. We can all stand and say that there is room for improvement of some of the regulations, the red tape and everything that goes with it, but we were elected to do that job. It is our job to make sure that we challenge where things are not right and could be made better. I was able to successfully challenge on CAP reform for some simplification around greening, so we can point to examples of where we have been able to make a difference. I am elected to do a job. I am the Minister of Agriculture and Rural Development. I will fight my corner for the local industry in Europe. That is what I should be doing. That is the job that I concern myself with. I am 100% concerned, as are the industry and the business community, about what a post-Brexit situation would mean. If we take it purely in terms of the agrifood sector and the rural economy, it would be a significant blow if we were to withdraw from Europe.

Rosaleen McCorley (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

Go raibh maith agat, a LeasCheann Comhairle. Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as a freagraí go dtí seo. I thank the Minister for her answers thus far. What is the current level of trade between the North and other EU regions?

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

The latest available figures indicate that 73% — again, this points to the significance of trading in Europe — of our agrifood and drinks-processing sector trading was to destinations outside the North of Ireland. In terms of exports from the North, 60% of exports of all goods and 90% of food and drink exports go to other EU countries. Therefore, it is no exaggeration to say that the EU markets are critical for the North's agrifood industry.

As well as the trade in processed food products, there are high levels of live animal and raw milk trade across the border with the South. In 2015 alone, almost 28,000 live cattle came North, while 332,000 sheep and around 20% of milk produced in the North went South. When you look at the stats, even those that have been very quickly put together, you see how important the implications for trade will be in a post-Brexit situation. Our level of trade in the EU is so significant to our local industry. Those are the factors that we need to take into consideration when it comes to deciding on our future.

Maeve McLaughlin (Sinn Féin, Foyle)

4. Ms Maeve McLaughlin asked the Minister of Agriculture and Rural Development for an update on her plans to use the forest estate for the development of wind energy. (AQO 9540/11-16)

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

A strategic outline case to support the work of Forest Service to commercialise its wind potential has already been approved. I am pleased to report that the next stages of business case work will be presented to me shortly for consideration. It will inform how best to commercialise the potential that exists on the forestry estate. There have been significant policy changes in the renewables area throughout 2015 locally and at Westminster, which has led to inevitable delays as Forest Service considers how best to integrate the changes into its proposals. The proposals coming forward now have taken the changes into consideration. Clearly, revenues for my Department or, indeed, communities will be dependent on sites becoming operational. I am sure that you would all welcome, as I do, the opportunity to generate revenue from public assets, particularly given the current budgetary situation that we find ourselves in.

John Dallat (Social Democratic and Labour Party, East Londonderry)

Before taking a supplementary, I appeal to Members to check their mobile phones, please. There is significant feedback, and that, of course, affects the recording equipment.

Maeve McLaughlin (Sinn Féin, Foyle)

Go raibh maith agat. I thank the Minister for her answer. Specifically in light of policy changes, how does the Department now intend to manage the environmental impacts of wind farm developments?

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

Obviously, wind farm development is subject to robust planning assessment by the councils or DOE, depending on the scale of the development. Planning consideration is against robust planning policies, and each proposal on the forest estate will be subject to a full environmental impact assessment. As with any planning application, interested parties have the opportunity to raise concerns or objections. Wind energy development on the forest estate is likely to involve some felling of trees in the immediate environment of turbines to accommodate the installation of wind farm infrastructure. Any of our proposals will be assessed against environmental standards and the planning standards that already exist for wind farms. In assessing the forest estate for wind energy potential, my Department has shown leadership. As part of its process, Forest Service has excluded environmentally designated areas such as special protection areas, known as SPAs.

Gerry Kelly (Sinn Féin, Belfast North)

5. Mr G Kelly asked the Minister of Agriculture and Rural Development to outline the achievements of the all-island animal health and welfare strategy. (AQO 9541/11-16)

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

I welcome the progress to date of the all-island animal health and welfare strategy, which has the wide support of industry on the island and is an excellent example of what can be achieved if we take a joined-up approach. It provides a valuable forum that enables discussion and practical cooperation on a wide range of animal health and welfare issues. Positive outcomes include cooperation on contingency planning for exotic disease outbreaks; agreement on a common chapter in the respective epizootic contingency plans for foot-and-mouth disease, avian influenza, African horse sickness and bluetongue; cooperation on testing regimes for TB and brucellosis in border areas; cooperation in relation to the exchange of data to facilitate trade in bovine animals, following the lifting of the BSE export ban; the development of a largely similar system of sheep identification; and the introduction of a BVD programme that will require herdkeepers to tag and test all new born calves for BVD in the North.

That will put herdkeepers here on an equal footing with those in the South, where a BVD eradication programme is already in place.

Officially brucellosis-free (OBF) status was approved by the EU Commission, which means that OBF status has been achieved in both jurisdictions. Attaining OBF status has allowed me to further relax our testing regime in the North.

All of those examples demonstrate that there are considerable benefits resulting from the strategy in animal health and welfare on the whole of the island. Those can help to protect us from disease outbreaks that may have serious consequences for trade and public health. There is an ongoing and active work programme in place, supported by close cooperation from officials, to help ensure the delivery of the strategy.

Gerry Kelly (Sinn Féin, Belfast North)

Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as a freagraí go dtí seo. I thank the Minister for her answer, which was very comprehensive. Will she elaborate on the ultimate aim of the strategy that she just outlined?

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

The ultimate aim of the strategy is to develop policies that will facilitate free movement of animals across this island. In implementing the strategy, both Administrations are guided by a number of key principles, including the achievement or maintenance of consistently high standards of animal health and welfare, improved public health and effective capacity to deal with emergencies within a policy framework. To work towards that aim, three key strategic areas have been identified: partnership; further cooperation on trade, animal identification and movement policies; and further cooperation on developing disease control and animal welfare policies.

William Irwin (DUP, Newry and Armagh)

The Minister talks about an all-Ireland animal health strategy. Does she accept that the Irish Republic has reduced TB to a much lower level than that in Northern Ireland through a badger cull and a deer cull? Have the Minister and her officials looked at how the Irish Republic has been able to reduce TB levels? Will she take the same action?

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

The levels in the South are different to our levels, but they are not consistent across the board so, depending on the area you are looking at, there might be higher or lower levels.

The Member knows that there is no simple solution to TB. There is no quick fix, because if there were I would have done it long before now. Looking towards all our neighbours and across Europe, nobody has a simple solution.

We are working our way through a number of areas of work, and you will be well aware of the work of the TB strategic partnership group, which is looking at TB in the round. It is looking at all the contributory factors, including the wildlife issue and the issue of compensation. That group will report to me; it has reported on an interim basis and it will report to me again in the next number of months in relation to a firm strategic approach.

We all share the same aim of eradicating the disease. We have been very successful with brucellosis, and I hope to get to the stage where we are as successful in relation to TB. The strategic approach that we are adopting as a result of the work of the partnership will be key to us being able to deliver.