Northern Ireland Assembly, 26 September 2016

313 contributions from 62 members. The official report.

Assembly Business

Robin Swann (UUP, North Antrim)

On a point of order, Mr Speaker, we received a letter from you last week on the cessation of private Members' Bills. Will you bring that matter to a speedy resolution because it is frustrating some Members of my party with regard to tabling private Members' Bills? Will you look at some of the Government Members who are tabling private Members' Bills on matters that their own Government Ministers are responsible for? Rather than utilising resources, those matters could be solved in either the party's house or the Department's house.

Robin Newton (Speaker, Belfast East)

Thank you, Mr Swann. I have noted your comments.

Robin Newton (Speaker, Belfast East)

Mr Colin McGrath has sought leave to present a public petition. In accordance with Standing Order 22, the Member will have up to three minutes to speak.

Colin McGrath (Social Democratic and Labour Party, South Down)

Thank you very much, Mr Speaker. It may seem strange that I am presenting a petition on this issue, given that I am a 40-year-old man, but I want to petition the Assembly about the plight of the WASPI women, or, to give them their full title, the Women Against State Pension Inequality. For me, the most important element is the term "Inequality", and that is why I am raising this issue.

In 1995 and 2011, the British Government passed pension Acts that moved the retirement age for women to bring it in line with that of men.

On the face of it, that seems fair and equitable, but it masks the number of women affected and the impact that it will have on them. With the introduction of these Acts and the fact that it was not done in a more gradual, incremental and timely way, some women who were born just three years apart have to retire six years apart, whilst women who were born five years earlier only have to work an extra nine months. To add insult to this injury, whilst some of the women who were born just a few months apart are required to work many years more, they are impacted doubly: once as they are required to work extra years compared to their peers, and again because, during their additional working period, they are required to pay National Insurance. Deprived of pensions on one hand, they are forced to contribute on the other. The majority of those impacted are now in their 60s. It seems to me to be a cruel policy that merely attacks older women.

Mr Speaker, you might ask, "As long as they know and can prepare, what is the big deal?" I would agree with you but, when us men were asked to work an extra year to the age of 66, we were given six years' notice before the policy was implemented. Some WASPI women were given just one year's notice. That means that men were given six years' notice for a one-year addition whilst women were given one year's notice of a six-year extension. It hardly seems equal.

It must be remembered too that some women were often not permitted to enter company pension schemes and other benefits of employment until the 1990s. Such changes to their plans and pensions are having a major detrimental impact. Some women who have not been working in later years and were expecting an income from the state pension are now, aged 60, 61 and 62, having to turn to jobseeker's allowance and zero-hour contracts to make ends meet. Just think how many of us knew our grandmothers when they were that age. Would we have liked them to have had to have a zero-hour contract just to survive?

To conclude, I submit this petition and ask that the House supports the Opposition day motion tabled by our Ulster Unionist friends later and sends a clear message that, if the clearing of the national debt mantra of "We are all in this together" means anything, we must do what we can to help prevent this inequality and the severe impact of these changes on Women Against State Pension Inequality.

Some Members

Hear, hear.

Mr McGrath moved forward and laid the petition on the Table.

Robin Newton (Speaker, Belfast East)

The petition will go to the Minister for Communities and the Committee for Communities.

Opposition Business

Robin Newton (Speaker, Belfast East)

The Business Committee has agreed to allow up to one hour and 30 minutes for the debate. As two amendments have been selected and published on the Marshalled List, an additional 15 minutes has been added to the total time. The proposer of the motion will have 10 minutes to propose and 10 minutes to wind up. The proposer of each amendment will have 10 minutes to propose and five minutes to wind up. All other Members who wish to speak will have five minutes.

Before we begin, the House should note that the amendments are mutually exclusive so, if amendment No 1 is made, the Question on amendment No 2 will not be put. I also advise Members that it is my understanding that there are currently no active legal proceedings in relation to the subject of this motion, and, therefore, the sub judice rule does not apply. However, there is an ongoing criminal investigation into the sale of Project Eagle, and Members will wish to avoid saying anything that might prejudice the outcome of these investigations.

Philip Smith (UUP, Strangford)

I beg to move

That this Assembly notes with deep concern the allegations made during the recent BBC Northern Ireland 'Spotlight' broadcast on events surrounding the sale of National Asset Management Agency (NAMA) properties; supports the investigations and inquiries being undertaken by the National Crime Agency (NCA), the Republic of Ireland and other international bodies; further notes the ongoing damage being done to Northern Ireland’s international reputation, not least by the continuing failure of institutions here to examine the issue effectively; and calls on the First Minister and deputy First Minister to make a statement before the Assembly to restore the public confidence in these institutions and the inquiry that should be undertaken by the Committee for Finance.

I am sure that we are all very aware of the live National Crime Agency investigation and the need to not say anything today that would stray into the realms of that investigation. At the same time, I believe that we cannot completely ignore NAMA and say nothing until the various criminal investigations are completed months or even years down the line. The issue has, of course, been debated at length in the Committee for Finance, which recently resolved to:

"inquire into the issues relating to the sale of the Northern Ireland loan portfolio of NAMA once clarity has been provided that, to do so, will not prejudice any investigation by the NCA into the matter."

The Committee has received further updates and guidance from the NCA and now awaits legal advice on how best to proceed.

Other investigations are under way here and in other jurisdictions. Criminal investigations are ongoing with the NCA, the PSNI and the gardaí in the Republic. Financial investigations are under way in the Republic and the USA, including the recent report on the Project Eagle sale by the Republic's Comptroller and Auditor General, which has led to the Irish Government setting up an inquiry into the losses that NAMA incurred for the Irish taxpayer. However, to date, we have seen little action from the Northern Ireland Executive or the Assembly apart from the review undertaken by the Committee for Finance and Personnel. The Ulster Unionist Party believes that the damage that this whole sorry episode has done to Northern Ireland's political and business reputation requires more than just kicking the problem into touch and citing ongoing investigations as a reason for inaction. That is why we have chosen this issue for our first Opposition day motion. We want to provide the First Ministers with an opportunity to address the public confidence issue that is obviously at large as a result of the ongoing investigations of and revelations about NAMA and has been compounded by the actions of some during the Assembly's one attempt to investigate.

I will start with the report produced by the Committee for Finance and Personnel in March 2016. The report concluded by saying:

"the Committee is concerned that different aspects of the Project Eagle controversy could be seen as having caused reputational damage to DFP, the Northern Ireland Executive".

It goes on to say:

"It is therefore imperative that the lessons identified to date are acted on as applicable."

In the six months since that report was published, what actions have been taken to ensure that mistakes relating to NAMA are not repeated? For example, the lessons identified to date in the report from the Committee stated that future ministerial nominations should be made only with the advice of senior departmental officials; that robust systems should be put in place to ascertain any financial or other interests of future similar ministerial appointments; that processes should be put in place to ensure that there are no future gaps in information relating to crucial meetings; and that independent expert advice should be available when Ministers are taking policy positions on matters that are of systematic importance to the economy. That recommendation does not seem to have progressed if Brexit is an example, but I am happy to be corrected.

Can the Chamber and, more importantly, the Northern Ireland public receive reassurance today that the lessons identified in the Committee report have been implemented? Furthermore, what actions have the Government taken to date to fix the reputational damage? I have yet to see much evidence, hence this debate provides an ideal opportunity for the First Ministers to make crystal clear what actions are being taken to rebuild confidence and trust following these scandals.

Of course, there are also many questions about the Committee report. It was a partial investigation at best as many witnesses declined to give evidence or provided only written evidence. The review had to work within the parameters of tight terms of reference that were developed so that it would not stray into areas outside its competence, so focus was primarily on the role of the Department of Finance and Personnel. The review was further hindered by NAMA's refusal to provide oral evidence as, in its opinion, it was accountable only to the Oireachtas and not Stormont. The Committee for Finance and Personnel did, of course, not accept this interpretation and found its refusal to provide evidence as "particularly unhelpful". The report identified 18 key witnesses — individuals and organisations — that had either been unable to or refused to provide oral evidence. Many of these would be essential witnesses in establishing the full truth.

The Finance and Personnel Committee was unable to come to any real conclusion due to the scope, timing and lack of participation by key witnesses and so could not provide any boost to public confidence. In fact, the subsequent revelations about witness coaching within the Committee have only eroded public confidence even further. What credibility does the Committee's report now have, considering the allegations relating to the then Committee Chair and others? That is another reason why confidence-building measures are needed now from the Government, as the Assembly's only attempt to provide scrutiny on this issue has only added fuel to the fire of public discontent.

Since the publication of the Committee's report in March 2016, there have been even more revelations. As mentioned, we have seen the alleged involvement of the former Chair of the Committee and others in the coaching of witnesses, Mr McKay's resignation from the Assembly and the investigations into the affair by Stormont and now the PSNI. We have also had yet another 'Spotlight' investigation with even more revelations, and we are still nowhere near the completion of the investigatory process. Who knows what is yet to be revealed? What can be said with confidence is that many of what were initially painted as wild allegations have been shown to be credible. Six months after the publication of the Committee's report, we are no further on. Worse, more allegations and layers of scandal have been revealed to damage even further the reputation of the political institutions and the business culture in Northern Ireland.

As 'The Irish Times' said in its commentary in reference to the recent Comptroller and Auditor General's report:

"the agency's operations in the North were unique — it didn't consult Merrion Street when selling property in Dublin, or Downing Street when selling property in London. The reason that — as is plain from the report — Project Eagle did not proceed according to Nama's regular procedures is that in the intersection between business and politics, as in so many other things, the North is different. Exactly how different may take several inquiries to establish."

That is why we brought the motion today. It is also why I cannot support the Sinn Féin amendment, which bizarrely excludes the reference to the reputational damage and the failure to effectively examine the issues involved. Does Sinn Féin honestly believe this whole episode has not damaged the reputation of the institutions involved? Does it think the Northern Ireland Government and Assembly have effectively managed the process? Does Sinn Féin believe the process has not had a detrimental impact on public confidence? Maybe it, like some others, would prefer that it would all just go away. Should NAMA, Project Eagle and witness coaching be forgotten until the criminal and other investigations are completed, many months or probably years down the line? Certainly not according to Sinn Féin in the Irish Parliament. Mr Adams has said that Sinn Féin has raised the issue of NAMA 34 times in the Dáil. Mr Adams certainly thinks there is a reputational issue here, if not with other 'Spotlight' investigations.

The question is this: have the Government taken effective and appropriate actions to improve public confidence in the wake of revelation after revelation on NAMA? I think not, and I believe the Northern Ireland public want reassurance that there will be no repeat of those scandals. They want to see confidence-building measures that improve transparency and accountability, and they want to hear that the full truth will be uncovered, however politically inconvenient it may be. Local and international business and investors need to hear that Northern Ireland is a clean place to do business and invest in and that any corruption, either financial or political, will not be tolerated. That is why we need a full and proper statement form the First Ministers on those issues.

I understand that much cannot be said about the details of live criminal investigations. However, First Ministers, the public need to hear from you nonetheless, or do you abdicate leadership on this to the BBC, with the public having to await the next instalment of 'Spotlight' or hope that light will be shed from investigations in other jurisdictions? Surely that would be unacceptable in any democracy worth the name.

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

I beg to move amendment No 1:

Leave out all after "properties;" and insert "supports the criminal investigations being undertaken by law enforcement agencies; and calls on the First Minister and deputy First Minister to make a statement emphasising their support, and that of the Executive, for all efforts to uncover the truth around the sale of the Project Eagle portfolio and committing to full cooperation with all ongoing investigations.".

From the outset, I will not name individuals, not only having taken guidance from the Speaker but because I do not believe in trial by media, even if it suits me politically to involve myself in it. I believe in the rights all citizens have to be a heard in a trial before their peers. That is where the investigation needs to be brought. It needs to be followed through the criminal investigatory powers on both sides of the border, and if someone has been found to have acted wrongly, or there is evidence that someone has been found to have acted wrongly, they should be brought before a court.

That is where the trial should take place.

During Mr Smith's contribution, I was not sure whom he wants to hold to account or why he wants to hold individuals or bodies to account. He seems more fixated on the Executive than on NAMA and the alleged wrongdoings. I think that he has missed the direction. If we are to ensure that wrongdoings around NAMA are held to account and there is a full and proper investigation into what happened in and around Project Eagle, regardless of who you are, what you are or who you think you are, you will be held to account.

As Mr Smith said, we have argued the point strongly since 2009 in the Oireachtas. The then senator Pearse Doherty said, when NAMA was proposed, that it was unworkable and would not achieve its stated objectives. Later, we went much further than many by calling for the suspension of NAMA transactions until after a full commission of inquiry into its activities on both sides of the border. We should not believe that Project Eagle is the only project or portfolio about which there are questions. Much of the work of NAMA has been called into question by different people, including us, since 2009.

The introductory ramble on the NAMA website reads as follows:

"The National Asset Management Agency (NAMA) was established in 2009 as one of a number of initiatives taken by the Government to address the serious crisis in Irish banking which had become increasingly evident over the course of 2008 and early 2009. NAMA is an unusual corporate entity — "

— that is true —

" — in that it began its life with a very large balance sheet and has been given the task of managing that balance sheet down to zero as soon as it commercially practicable."

One would imagine that "commercially practicable" means that it makes a return for its investors, and, in this case, the investors are the taxpayers: the man and woman burdened with a €64 billion debt as a result of the banking crisis in the South and the collapse of the property market. Although the role of NAMA changed slightly in the year following its formation in 2009, when the IMF came in, its project was and should have been to protect the interests of the ordinary man and woman on the street. That it has failed to do miserably.

There is much speculation about who made money out of Project Eagle. Individuals, organisations and companies have been named, but we can be sure of one thing, and that is who did not make money out of Project Eagle: the ordinary man and woman on the street most certainly did not make money and, in fact, lost money.

One of the areas that requires to be examined in relation to Project Eagle is this: why did NAMA decide to sell the Northern loan book off as one? Why, according to the C&AG's report, did it not even consider breaking the portfolio up into different lots in an attempt to enhance the profit margins? It appears from the C&AG's report that there was no recorded discussion of that possibility at NAMA board meetings. That is an important question: why did NAMA not look after the interests of the ordinary man and woman by ensuring that maximum value was obtained on the Northern loan book? However, it went much further than that. It gave a 10% discount to the bidder on the Northern loan book, as revealed, again, in the C&AG's report, which also revealed that there is no recorded discussion on why that 10% discount was given.

Estimates are that, on the Northern loan book alone, £220 million was lost — £220 million of citizens' money. That in itself deserves a commission of inquiry.

When you bring in all the other elements to it — the media investigations and speculation, the Finance Committee's report and other issues that have come to light — it is clear that something stinks at the heart of NAMA. The question today is this: how do we get to the heart of NAMA and what went on in Project Eagle? If someone, individuals or a group of individuals came together and conspired to defraud the taxpayer, how do we hold them to account?

Mr Smith outlined the history of the previous Committee report. He admitted that that report was shackled because of the tight confines in which it was working. Is there any suggestion that it will not work within the same tight confines in the future? We have an ongoing NCA investigation. The NCA recently briefed the Committee in person and in writing. It is clear that it has a high-level serious investigation going on into that matter. The Finance Committee is shackled in that regard. NAMA refused to attend the last hearings of the Finance Committee. Is there anything to suggest that NAMA will attend a future hearing? I think that it should, but I do not believe that it will. What do we want to do? Do we want to set up a Finance Committee inquiry for the sake of doing so? I have no doubt that there will be great effort from the Committee members and staff, but will it result in those responsible for wrongdoing around Project Eagle being brought to account? I do not believe so.

Our amendment sets out a way forward. The proposer of the motion is reading too much into our leaving out "reputational damage" etc. A motion before the Assembly is about what actions you are going to take. It is not a history tale or —

Steven Agnew (Green, North Down)

Will the Member give way?

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

One moment.

It is not about setting out what happened in the past or what the impact of what happened in the past will be; it is about what actions the Assembly wants to take in the future. Our amendment sets out quite succinctly the actions that should be taken in the future. It is about ensuring that there is an inquiry on both sides of the border, in cooperation with the institutions on either side of the border, ensuring that those who have information bring it to the ongoing criminal investigations on either side of the border, and ensuring that those responsible are held to account.

I give way to the Member quickly.

Steven Agnew (Green, North Down)

I thank the Member for giving way. The Comptroller and Auditor General's report is clear that one of the issues with Project Eagle was political considerations. As I understand it, the Member's amendment is effectively just leaving it to the criminal investigations. Does he not accept that we need political investigation into the issue, with North/South cooperation and full buy-in from all parties?

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

Let me clarify that point for the Member: of course political goings-on around NAMA and Project Eagle need to be investigated. The last line of our amendment states:

"for all efforts to uncover the truth around the sale of the Project Eagle portfolio and committing to full cooperation with all ongoing investigations."

The commission of inquiry in the South will investigate all ongoing investigations. What was the role of the politicians in all parts of this island in relation to Project Eagle? There is no hiding place for investors, bankers, politicians or anyone in regard to Project Eagle.

Robin Newton (Speaker, Belfast East)

I ask the Member to conclude his remarks.

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

I come back to my opening comments: this crime has been committed against the ordinary man and woman on the street. For that reason alone, every one in the House should support inquiries across the island of Ireland to ensure that those responsible are brought to account and to ensure —

Robin Newton (Speaker, Belfast East)

Time is up.

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

— that the NAMA loan portfolio returns profit for citizens who have been paying for it.

Claire Hanna (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast South)

I beg to move amendment No 2:

Leave out all after "effectively; " and insert "recommends consideration of the creation of a joint investigation team of the National Crime Agency and An Garda Síochána into allegations of criminal conduct in relation to the National Assets Management Agency; calls for full cooperation in the production of papers and attendance of persons at parliamentary inquiries or commissions of investigation in Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland around the work of the National Assets Management Agency; and further calls on the First Minister and deputy First Minister to make a statement before the Assembly to restore the public confidence in these institutions and the inquiry that should be undertaken by the Committee for Finance.".

I commend the Ulster Unionist Party for proposing this motion on the first Opposition day of the session and Mr Smith for a very comprehensive outline of the issue. Our amendment is intended to strengthen it, particularly by reflecting new information that has come into the public domain since the motion was tabled. It addresses specifically the North/South dimension and the report of the Irish Comptroller and Auditor General.

We will not support the Sinn Féin amendment because we do not feel that it goes far enough. We hope that our amendment includes all the key elements of what it proposes but enhances the detail. At this stage, we feel that we have to start to flesh out the "how" and not just the "why" of the issue. I am not speaking for the Ulster Unionist Party, but, to pick up on your question on whom we seek to hold to account, it is the agency that you mentioned and the Executive as well because there are serious concerns around due diligence in the appointment of people to relevant boards and the fact that there is the impression that people may have used this ministerial approval as licence to tout themselves as fixers.

Project Eagle, the sale of NAMA's Northern loan portfolio, is the biggest property deal in the history of Northern Ireland and has been a cause of concern for considerably over a year, yet there has been very little movement. It has now become clear that the Irish taxpayer has had to bear an enormous loss of about €220 million, which is £180 million. That is by far the biggest loss on any of the NAMA portfolios. There are many questions to be asked about why this portfolio had to be sold as a single lot when others were not and who exactly was driving that sale. Some of those issues are teased out in the C&AG report.

I want to turn briefly to the revelations in the BBC 'Spotlight' programme. It is a matter of regret that there is an impression that the Assembly is leaving its scrutiny role and efforts that it should be able to undertake to the media. It is also a matter of regret that we are discussing the issue only now and not last week or just after the programme was aired as a Matter of the Day or Question for Urgent Oral Answer.

It is further regrettable that the then Minister of Finance, Mr Sammy Wilson, when asked about the issue, chose to shoot the messenger and go with a reflex attack on BBC 'Spotlight'. I do not think that it does him any credit to have referred to the makers of this programme as a bunch of biased bigots and amateurs. That is shooting the messenger and ignoring serious public concerns. I hope that Members opposite can confirm whether that is a corporate view.

The deputy First Minister could give us some clarification, too. It is reported in the 'Irish Times' of 17 September that a record exists of a conference call in early January 2014, including the DUP and Sinn Féin, where they were as one in telling Dublin that they jointly supported the PIMCO deal and that Mr McGuinness quipped to the Finance Minister, Minister Noonan;

"Now, Minister, it's time you stood up for the Ulstermen."

That is all very heart-warming, but I would be grateful to hear the deputy First Minister's response and recollection of that conference call and precisely which Ulstermen he wanted stood up for, especially in the light of the fact that, not very long after that reported conversation, PIMCO, probably acutely aware of the consequences of the racketeering provisions of the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act in the US, itself scotched the deal, possibly on the basis of the fixer fee to be paid to London lawyers and a few select Ulstermen.

For over a year, the Administrations in Belfast and Dublin have effectively adopted a "nothing to see" approach, which has eroded public confidence in the will and ability to cast light on the murky corners of this issue. Some useful work was done by the predecessor Committee for Finance and Personnel in the last mandate, but, of course, that has been undermined by allegations of coaching in the inquiry.

We in the SDLP welcome the change in approach from the Dublin Government, which previously appeared ambivalent about the legitimate interest of the Assembly in Project Eagle. I hope that they will now give the Assembly its proper place, as I do not think that they did in parts of the last year. The reporting of relevant persons to the standards in public office authorities, as well as the acknowledgement of the content of the C&AG report, are a welcome change in approach.

It is the form and remit of the inquiry that we wish to explore in more detail in the debate and through our amendment. There is real public concern about political interference from whatever direction and foot-dragging in the running of investigations to date. Of course criminal investigations must be allowed to proceed completely unhindered, but we cannot be expected simply to mark time until that happens without taking steps to repair the reputational damage to this region as an open and transparent place in which to do business. There are numerous precedents — Lawrence, Hillsborough, Hart to name just three — for public and criminal inquiries to run in parallel. Suggesting otherwise could be perceived as another foot-dragging exercise.

Our specific proposals are outlined in brief in the text of the amendment, and I will explore them further now. They address the explicit cross-border nature of the matter, and if ever there was a North/South issue, it is this. We are trying to bridge the jurisdictional issues for the law enforcement agencies and anybody else with an interest. The situation is that very many of the questions are here in the North but the answers are in the South. The massive loss to the taxpayer has been borne in the South, but we have suffered the reputational damage and the public confidence damage.

I will take each of our proposals in turn. We are recommending that there be a joint investigation team between the NCA and an Garda Síochána. Provision exists for joint law enforcement teams under the Criminal Justice (Joint Investigation Teams) Act 2004 in the Republic and should be used. There are investigations open in the UK, the Republic and the US. We have to ensure maximum communication between them. If they are sought, we have to ensure that prosecutions are able to take place in the most suitable jurisdiction and that nobody is able to use the existence of a border to evade justice.

A second requirement is for legislation for joint North/South inquiries. We have a draft Bill to amend the flawed Westminster Inquiries Act 2005 to make exactly that provision. We have worked closely with colleagues in Irish Labour, who have drafted complementary legislation amending the Irish Commissions of Investigation Act 2004. That will not entirely fix the framework for this scenario, but it will allow us to future-proof other public confidence issues.

A memorandum of understanding will be required to ensure full cooperation in the production of papers and the attendance of persons at parliamentary inquiries or commissions of investigation. That is designed to address the specific concerns that Mr O'Dowd correctly raised about people who have potentially dodged or may dodge an investigation. It is a requirement on both Governments, their Departments, their agencies and relevant financial regulatory bodies to cooperate as required.

It is not enough just to nod this through, to do the hand-wringing or to call for a weak statement. A statement on the issue should have been made a long time ago. Rightly or wrongly, there is a public perception that the Assembly is at best inert and, at worst, complicit when it comes to getting to the truth of the issue. The motion, with our amendment, charts a course on how we can finally have action and not just talk on this.

Emma Little-Pengelly (DUP, Belfast South)

I speak on behalf of the Democratic Unionist Party but alongside that in my role as Chairperson of the Finance Committee, which is referenced in the motion.

I believe that everyone in the House wants to get to the truth around the allegations. Furthermore, I want to see justice done if or when wrongdoing is identified. There is no condition or reservation in that aim. I have said that repeatedly to the Committee, and, from our discussions thus far, it is clear that there is eagerness across all parties on the Committee to do what we can to support and help in the process of getting to the truth and getting justice.

(Mr Deputy Speaker [Mr McGlone] in the Chair)

The Committee received a confidential briefing from the National Crime Agency at a special meeting on 11 July 2016. On the back of that briefing, we had written and oral legal advice over the summer. In addition, we wrote with urgency to the National Crime Agency following the 'Spotlight' programme. We received a detailed response and, on the back of that, are awaiting further legal advice.

The United Kingdom's National Crime Agency advised us in the strongest possible terms that the Committee should not conduct further investigations into the matter, given the stage of its investigations. Not only did it issue that advice but the agency requested strongly that we did not, indicating that, in its view, there could be a serious risk to the investigation. That is why it is disappointing and surprising that, despite the clear advice and request from the United Kingdom's key criminal investigative body, the National Crime Agency, the Ulster Unionist Party has continued to make public comment, calling for the Committee and the Assembly to examine the issues immediately, and brought forward this motion, seemingly seeking to disregard that advice and request.

Based on the advice that we received, I believe that similar advice will have been received by the Ulster Unionist Party on bringing a motion on NAMA to the House. Mr Smith, one of its signatories, sits on the Finance Committee.

He has received those confidential briefings and legal advice. He has received the request in the strongest terms. Yet, despite this, he has made public comment showing that he does not seem to care about that request, indicating that the Ulster Unionist Party wishes to ignore the advice of the National Crime Agency and blunder forward. I find this approach bizarre and perverse.

We have heard much about public expectation and building confidence; we need to step back and fully consider the current situation. There is a serious criminal investigation ongoing. As public and elected representatives, we have a duty to do what we can to scrutinise. Furthermore, one of our key roles is to help and support people as much as we can. However, there is a critical question to be asked.

Mike Nesbitt (UUP, Strangford)

Will the Member give way?

Emma Little-Pengelly (DUP, Belfast South)

I am sorry, no, I am going to continue. Can our inquiries or debates help the quest for truth or justice? Only if the answer to that is yes should we continue. To debate, work, and inquire and add no value is pointless. Worse than that, to debate, inquire and cause the investigation harm would be disgraceful and the exact opposite of what we are elected to do. We have strong advice that further inquiries by the Committee or the Assembly would, in fact, potentially damage or harm the investigation by the National Crime Agency. In that context, why would the Ulster Unionist Party or, for that matter, anyone else want to create a new Assembly or Committee inquiry at this time?

Mike Nesbitt (UUP, Strangford)

Will the Member give way?

Emma Little-Pengelly (DUP, Belfast South)

Sorry, I am going to continue. Why would they want to take any action? What value do they believe that Philip Smith or Claire Hanna would add that the National Crime Agency cannot add? Perhaps they would provide news headlines or a bit of self-publicity or party publicity.

There are very good reasons why the NCA and any police force are set up the way they are. They are independent because it is deemed that, for these type of matters, public confidence is best served by independence from political interference or influence. The Assembly and Committees are not independent; they represent a range of political interests. The National Crime Agency has full investigatory powers and we, in the Assembly and Committees, do not. Our powers are limited for a reason. The Assembly and Committees do not investigate crimes and it was never intended that they would do so. The NCA has skills and training on objectivity and on the value and weight of evidence. It represents an independent and robust body with full investigatory powers. The Committee has agreed that an appropriate and prudent way forward is to listen to the National Crime Agency. Mr Smith and the Ulster Unionist Party want to disregard that request and advice.

Patsy McGlone (Deputy Speaker, Mid Ulster)

The Member's time is coming to a close.

Emma Little-Pengelly (DUP, Belfast South)

As Chairperson of the Committee, I, and the DUP, will not disregard that advice. We will listen to it. This should not be about grabbing the headlines but supporting the pursuit of truth and justice.

Patsy McGlone (Deputy Speaker, Mid Ulster)

The Member's time is up.

Jim Allister (Traditional Unionist Voice, North Antrim)

On a point of order, I understood that there are obligations on us all, when we rise to speak on an issue, that we declare any relevant interests. We have just heard a speech from Mrs Pengelly, who is the wife of Richard Pengelly who was at the heart of the Department which made some dodgy recommendations in respect of NAMA and who also served as a special adviser to the First Minister, who has also been implicated in these matters. Should there not have been a declaration of interest by Mrs Pengelly before she embarked on her excursion of deflection?

Patsy McGlone (Deputy Speaker, Mid Ulster)

Now that you have raised these matters, I will refer them to the Speaker for determination.

Stephen Farry (Alliance, North Down)

Following on from the previous Member, it is worthwhile picking up on the point and, indeed, the frustration that was being felt on other Benches. While this is a criminal matter and primacy needs to be given to criminal investigations, not all aspects of public disquiet in relation to the NAMA affair pertain to purely criminal matters. There are issues regarding good governance, how decision-making recommendations were formulated and how public appointments were taken forward that need to be thoroughly investigated, not least to ensure that proper lessons are learnt for the future.

While we need to take huge care to ensure that this debate and any other discussion in this Building or outside does not compromise any criminal investigations, it is quite legitimate that we are here today discussing this, indeed it is a debate that should have happened much sooner. If it were not for the election, there would have been a debate around the report, albeit it is a flawed report now, from the outgoing Finance Committee.

There are elements of the motion and the amendments that we can identify with. While Members have alluded to other issues that are not, strictly speaking, recommendations in the motions, we express disappointment that there is not a specific call in any of them for a proper public inquiry to take place in Northern Ireland or in the Republic of Ireland or that there is consideration for something to happen on an all-island basis.

I appreciate that it has been mentioned as part of a range of options, but we would have gone some way to restoring public confidence today if there had been a clear, unambiguous acknowledgement by the Assembly of the need for a public inquiry to fully address the issues and, in doing so, respect the primacy of the format of the ongoing criminal investigations, whether by the NCA, an Garda Síochána, the US Securities and Exchange Commission or the FBI. If an inquiry is established, it could make a judgement call on whether it could proceed in looking additionally at non-criminal matters or whether it should wait until the conclusion of the criminal investigation.

The important message to get out is that, aside from the criminal investigation, there is a much wider issue that needs to be properly investigated. Those who think that it can simply be channelled into the criminal sphere and left to run its course are missing the bigger picture that goes to the heart of public accountability, value for money, good governance and how we conduct our business. This is only one example of an emerging and consolidating trend from government where there are genuine issues around problems with openness, transparency and accountability. Indeed, we will return to it with an Alliance Party motion, hopefully next week.

It is also important that we recognise that if the Assembly does wish to investigate the matter, there will be limitations to that investigation. We have already had difficulties with the Finance Committee, and there are serious question marks over its report and the attempted coaching of at least one witness that we are aware of so far. There were, already, wider issues around its ability to ensure that the full range of people appeared before it to give evidence and to ensure that it had that fully rounded process.

There is also a point about the willingness of the members of political parties who sit on Committees to challenge what is said by Ministers from their own party or, indeed, by civil servants from Departments that are led by their party. Until we have scrutiny Committees where people are prepared to move beyond the purely party political, Back Bench scrutiny is always going to be limited in that regard. There are many, many other examples of that in the Assembly.

I also want to put on record my defence of my colleague Judith Cochrane, who came under considerable criticism last year, when she urged caution on hearing evidence from Jamie Bryson; I believe that what she said at the time and her position, as well as that of others who voiced similar concerns, has now been well vindicated.

Finally, we recently saw an attempt, somewhat belatedly, by the Government in the Republic of Ireland to reach out to opposition parties to try and formulate a consensus on the best way forward. It strikes me that we are looking at a whole range of different ways forward here, but nothing is coming together. We need to see political parties sitting down together —

Patsy McGlone (Deputy Speaker, Mid Ulster)

Will the Member draw his remarks to a close, please?

Stephen Farry (Alliance, North Down)

— to work out the best way of establishing trust and confidence. My party leader has written to the other party leaders to ask for a meeting; however, nobody has yet taken that initiative forward. It is important that all the parties sit down —

Patsy McGlone (Deputy Speaker, Mid Ulster)

The Member's time is up.

Stephen Farry (Alliance, North Down)

— and find out what the best way forward is.

Alex Maskey (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

I follow on from my colleague John O'Dowd in making a number of points about the motion tabled by the Ulster Unionist Party. First, the motion is simply too narrow because it only calls for a joint statement by the First Minister and deputy First Minister, which is supposed to inspire confidence, but I do not really know what that statement is about, or what it is supposed to do, or how it is going to allay fears and concerns, and inspire confidence. It also implies —

Mike Nesbitt (UUP, Strangford)

Will the Member give way?

Alex Maskey (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

I have only just started, so I will continue, thanks very much, Mike. As I said, it only really calls for a statement by the joint First Ministers and implies a Finance Committee inquiry. We believe that is far too narrow. For the sake of the debate, I would suggest to Philip Smith that he considers that. While he made quite a number of valid points, which we broadly support, he threw in a number of clumsy, politically inspired jibes, which undermine his own work.

For the record, we in Sinn Féin broadly support the thrust of the motion, even if we think that it is too narrow and clumsy in that it not only throws in some silly jibes but misses the point in some cases if the Member wants to seek all-party support.

Again, for the record, we in Sinn Féin have long been on the record as challenging the establishment of NAMA, the behaviour and activities of NAMA and some of the individuals associated with its business. John O'Dowd made the point well that the entire process around NAMA meant that a huge financial debt was imposed on the vast majority of ordinary Irish citizens. The twenty-six-county state was almost brought to its knees, and I have to say that that has been a recurring theme of annoyance for a lot of people. A lot of the people who seem to be associated with all that collapse — big bankers, developers, senior politicians, including Ministers — all seem to have come out of it smelling of roses, whilst the vast majority of citizens are left with negative equity and many have lost their home. People across the Twenty-six Counties have to pay for a GP appointment, and, sometimes, they cannot even get one for some considerable time. The litany of iniquity levelled against ordinary citizens is disgraceful when we look at the scandalous story of NAMA and how all that has unfolded, and it continues to scandalise the vast majority of us.

The SDLP amendment is also a bit narrow, in so far as all that it does is to recommend consideration of the creation of a joint investigating team. We have called for that and called for an all-Ireland inquiry. Again, it refers to the Assembly Finance Committee.

I want to promote the Sinn Féin amendment because it is very inclusive. We have tried to match the very genuine sentiment and intention of the motion and the SDLP's amendment. We support very much the thrust of the amendment and the motion, and we support very much the annoyance and anger felt and expressed by the Members who moved the motion and the amendment.

Steven Agnew (Green, North Down)

Will the Member give way?

Alex Maskey (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

No, I want to finish. Thank you.

By the same token, in trying to get all-party support in the Chamber for the key principles around all this, we have tabled an amendment that, we believe, is much more inclusive because it not only calls on the First Minister and deputy First Minister to make a statement; it calls on them to make a statement and make clear their support for all the criminal investigations under way — not only their support but the support of the Executive. As far as we are concerned, that is very important. If the First Minister and deputy First Minister make such a statement, they make it very clear on behalf of themselves and the Executive that they support all the relevant investigations that are under way, most of which at this time are criminal investigations, whether that is the PSNI and an Garda Síochána on both sides of the border on an all-Ireland basis, the NCA, the American organisations or whatever.

I want to say again for the record that we have no difficulty with the Assembly Finance Committee undertaking such an inquiry, but we already know that it will be seriously restricted in how it can conduct its business. We all know that Assembly Committees are limited in what they can do. They do not have the authority to have the type of forensic investigations —

Patsy McGlone (Deputy Speaker, Mid Ulster)

I ask the Member to draw his remarks to a close.

Alex Maskey (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

— that the law enforcement agencies have. I make the point that our amendment is open-ended in that it does not rule out an Assembly Finance Committee because that is entirely in the gift of the Finance Committee. We would argue that it —

Patsy McGlone (Deputy Speaker, Mid Ulster)

The Member's time is up.

Alex Maskey (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

— will be limited in its remit, but we call for —

Patsy McGlone (Deputy Speaker, Mid Ulster)

The Member's time is up.

Alex Maskey (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

— all-party support for our amendment to have a full investigation.

Alan Chambers (UUP, North Down)

We need to understand that the purpose of the debate is not about the reputation or limiting the reputational damage of anyone who may have served under the roof of this Building or may indeed still serve under it; it is about the public and international perception of this political institution to which we all belong. We know that there are many negative issues in that regard in the mindset of the public. The recent announcement of the appointment of Mr David Gordon is perhaps an acknowledgement by the Executive of that fact. Public confidence in how business has been conducted by a few people in the business sector in Northern Ireland, especially when senior politicians become involved in the process, is also currently under pressure and is subject to intense scrutiny by a concerned public.

NAMA and its alleged irregularities taint us all. It is not a time for any party in the Chamber to continue to circle the wagons and hope that the NAMA scandal will simply disappear. It will not, and it should not. The public expects every transparent process to be deployed not just by the police but by the House using every mechanism available to us to uncover and reveal the truth. No one involved in wrongdoing should be protected from all avenues of scrutiny or be able to sleep easy in their bed. Like a poisoned boil, this has to be lanced and cleaned out, and the sooner the better.

All the information we know about this sordid affair must be having a detrimental effect on our international reputation and standing in the worldwide business community. We may never know just how much or how badly. An example of this is how quickly PIMCO disappeared over the horizon, when it blew the whistle on a £7 million success fee arrangement that it wanted nothing to do with. That particular piece of doubtful business practice, along with other more recent revelations of alleged brown bags stuffed with cash being handed over and accepted, would sit comfortably in some corrupt, gangster-controlled country in some uncivilised part of the world.

Roy Beggs (UUP, East Antrim)

Will the Member give way?

Alan Chambers (UUP, North Down)

Northern Ireland is better than that. I will give way.

Roy Beggs (UUP, East Antrim)

In May 2013, the then First Minister, Peter Robinson, and then Finance Minister, Sammy Wilson, held a meeting at Stormont — I believe it was in this Building — along with Frank Cushnahan, who was appointed by Sammy Wilson as the NAMA advisory group insider, and representatives of PIMCO, the American property investment company who were to be potential bidders. Does the Member agree with me that it was entirely inappropriate for Ministers to bring together potential bidders and NAMA insiders and that there should be full transparency on everything that happened in order to assure the public that in the future there will be proper governance arrangements, that we will not be held in such disrepute and that there will be confidence for future long-term investment in Northern Ireland?

Patsy McGlone (Deputy Speaker, Mid Ulster)

I remind Members that interventions should be brief. You have an extra minute added to your time, Mr Chambers.

Alan Chambers (UUP, North Down)

I agree that that episode is worthy of further scrutiny.

One of our main target areas for inward investment is the United States of America. It is a big country, but multinational companies there do not operate in silos. We will never be able to quantify how many boardrooms have echoed the conversations about the allegations around NAMA. Given the involvement of the US Department of Justice and the FBI, it cannot all have gone unnoticed or been ignored in America by either the US Administration, the business sector or the media.

Unfortunately, from time to time bad things can and do happen, both in the private sector and in the public sector. They can be outside the control of management or, indeed, government. However, in the court of public opinion and, perhaps, in the case of NAMA, the international business community, judgement is not merely passed on the fact that something bad has happened but more on how the situation is dealt with. Robust action breeds confidence, but prevarication creates suspicion.

The House cannot afford to tiptoe around the NAMA allegations. Nor should it peddle the line that we should leave the truth-finding to others. Every day the truth stays suppressed is another day of public and international scepticism of the genuine desire of the House to get to the bottom of this cesspit. No matter how uncomfortable the journey or the process of digging for the truth may prove to be, we owe it to the House. We owe it to our people, especially to our hard-working and honest business community, who do not operate in circles where cash-filled bags are handed over in hospital car parks. We should also divert the spotlight off the BBC programme of that name and the other arms of the media who have pursued and highlighted the scandal. We should be grateful to them for casting a light in the dark corners that many would prefer to stay dark. Forget about criticising the messenger, and let us just spend all our energy and resource on this story, with all its serious allegations. Lord Morrow, in a debate in this Chamber last week, shared these words of wisdom:

"a common fault in Northern Ireland: we seem to look at who is saying the thing rather than at what is being said." — [Official Report (Hansard), 20 September 2016, p19, col 2].

Perhaps today is an important occasion not to lose sight of what is being said and to act accordingly in the best interests of the public we all claim to represent.

I turn briefly to the amendment from Sinn Féin. Given that they are so precious about their image overseas, I find it disappointing that they do not share my party's concerns.

Patsy McGlone (Deputy Speaker, Mid Ulster)

I ask the Member to draw his remarks to a close, please.

Alan Chambers (UUP, North Down)

Also, so much of the DUP's outrage was directed towards the Ulster Unionist Party, yet there did not seem to be a word directed at those involved in this nasty affair.

Patsy McGlone (Deputy Speaker, Mid Ulster)

The Member's time is up.

Gerry Mullan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, East Londonderry)

It has been a very interesting and insightful debate thus far. As a Member for East Derry and a member of the Committee for Finance, I welcome the opportunity to engage in the debate as well. As we enter our first Opposition day, I welcome a debate on what has been the biggest financial scandal of a generation.

As other Members and my colleague Claire Hanna have outlined, in recent weeks, developments have been picking up pace on NAMA's sale of Project Eagle, the biggest ever property deal in the North of this island. Some of the revelations in the media and other places have been deeply worrying, and the report of the Irish Comptroller and Auditor General, which catalogues the irregularities in the Project Eagle sale, should be compulsory reading for everyone in the Chamber. Clearly, as the revelations unfold, it has become increasingly clear that the Project Eagle scandal is multifaceted and multilayered. Complex as it is, one thing is quite simple and crystal clear: the manner in which further details and accounts of the transaction are emerging from private sources is doing great reputational damage to this institution and to the trust and confidence the public have bestowed on us as their public elected representatives.

The Irish Government's plan to establish their own inquiry into Project Eagle is a welcome development. The issue demands political consensus on the way forward because it is bigger than any one party and any one jurisdiction. In that context, I turn to today's amendments. The only way to uncover the whole truth about Project Eagle is to have a cross-border investigation, and we cannot be found wanting. Sinn Féin's amendment is merely stating the obvious, which is that the Executive should be fully committed to any investigation: that should be the standard of any Government. Sinn Féin's amendment fails to recognise the importance of cross-border collaboration. The SDLP believes the only way to achieve the truth and accountability is to have a joint PSNI, NCA and Garda Síochána team to investigate the criminal allegations. Provision exists for that approach, and it should be deployed now and without any further delay. That would help to build confidence that all the evidence will be pursued, obtained and properly scrutinised.

Any inquiry established must, at its core, reflect that the alleged corruption at the heart of the deal is an all-island scourge and a resolution can be achieved only through a comprehensive, all-island investigation. There are jurisdictional issues involved in parallel criminal investigations, but we cannot allow the border to become a barrier to justice or accountability for the Irish people. Any cross-border investigation will require changes to legislation. The SDLP has a draft Bill to amend the flawed Westminster Inquiries Act 2005 that makes precisely that provision in public inquiries. That will now be circulated at Westminster and elsewhere as further legislation is developed to make fresh provision for North/South models of investigation.

It is important that, as we debate the motion, we do not let deep divisions in our Executive act as a veto to a thorough examination of all the issues arising from NAMA's Project Eagle sale. The Executive parties cannot continue to stifle progress here, and they cannot impede the course of any investigation. The public want the truth, and they want accountability — they deserve just those. Any attempt to stop that should be seen as an affront to democracy and to the democratic institutions of the Assembly. I urge support for the SDLP amendment.

Steven Agnew (Green, North Down)

There are two aspects to the NAMA scandal: the criminal is whether there has been corruption; the political is what role politicians played in what appears to be a poor return, particularly for the Irish taxpayer. The distinction is simple, and anyone who purports not to understand the distinction is clearly deflecting from their party's involvement in the political aspect. The criminal aspect will, to a large extent, take care of itself. I have full confidence in the National Crime Agency and an Garda Síochána working together to establish why there was an offshore bank account containing £7 million, which seems to be fairly well established, whether bin bags full of cash were passed over by so-called handlers and, if so, who those people were, what their role was and what criminality was conducted. That will take care of itself. It is relatively simple in its context. Separate to that, though, is the political side, and that is where we need to ensure that our Executive, the Government in the South and the NAMA board are held to account. That is our role, that is why we are here and it must be done. Otherwise, we fail in our duty.

Today we have a call for a statement from the First Minister and deputy First Minister, and it is disappointing that we cannot even get them to the Chamber to address the debate. I welcome the Finance Minister's attendance and his responding to the debate, but I would like to have seen the First Minister and deputy First Minister. We are seeing a further example, as we saw with the use of the royal prerogative and the major spending decisions taken over the summer recess, of a First Minister and deputy First Minister who wish to act without accountability to or challenge from the House.

The Comptroller and Auditor General's report was clear about the difference with Project Eagle. Why was it different from sales in Dublin and London? The answer is plain and simple: the political considerations specific to the Northern Ireland aspects. That is what we have a duty to investigate — this House, the Dáil and collectively North/South. What were those political considerations? I will throw out one as a possibility. Sammy Wilson described Frank Cushnahan as a "friend" who did "great work", which is the crux of the problem with the NAMA process: cronyism in Northern Ireland politics. This is not the first time that we have seen it. We have seen issues before with property deals. I remember the Seymour Sweeney case, when someone who said that he was "aware" of the individual turned out to be his good friend. Now we hear of another good friend doing "great work", potentially on behalf of the DUP. We have to move away from that cronyism. We need transparency and accountability. Being a good friend is not enough to deliver effectively for the people of Northern Ireland, and we need to challenge that. We need to ensure that political appointments are the right appointments, that the job is done correctly and that there is no political interference where none is required.

I was told that the reason that Project Eagle was so different — why Northern Ireland was so different from London, Dublin or anywhere else in NAMA's portfolio — is plain and simple: whether it was east Belfast or west Belfast, you could not sell a house without a politician at the table. That is the crux of the matter: political interference in every deal. This should have been simply about getting good value for money for the Irish taxpayer through sales in Northern Ireland that met the market value. As it was, friends were at the table.

Patsy McGlone (Deputy Speaker, Mid Ulster)

Will the Member draw his remarks to a close, please?

Steven Agnew (Green, North Down)

Politicians were at the table during sales. We need to get to that cronyism and weed it out.

Gerry Carroll (People Before Profit Alliance, Belfast West)

I am glad that the NAMA scandal has finally been brought to the Floor of the Chamber for debate. In all honesty, however, we should have had the opportunity to discuss this serious issue much earlier. The motion questions the degree to which the international reputation of the North has been damaged by the NAMA scandal. I do not doubt that the supporters of the motion are correct on that point, but I should point out that our international reputation often seemed to be exaggerated in the Chamber way before the NAMA scandal erupted.

Be that as it may, surely our starting point today should be what ordinary people think about this. What do the hundreds of thousands of people — the taxpayers who pay our wages, no less — think about the recent shenanigans? It is not an exaggeration to say that there is widespread revulsion in society about the recent revelations. Serious questions need to be asked, not just about the role of individuals in this affair but about the endemic culture that exists in the establishment here that bends over backwards for property developers and big corporations and the cosy relationship that exists between big companies, big business and politicians. There is a rotten culture of reverence for people in suits with big bank accounts.

When it comes to public-sector workers and people who receive benefits, we are told that belts need to be tightened and tough decisions have to be made. They do not benefit from secret deals or backhanders, nor do they get the ear of the First Minister. Yet, the NAMA scandal shows that, when it comes to the interests of property developers, parties will go the extra mile for them, including operating on a cross-border basis to ensure that deals are made for individuals — this from parties that are normally ardent opponents of any kind of all-Ireland activity.

How can that be? How can it be that a giant US company can secure assets worth £6·5 billion for just £1·34 billion? The NAMA deal was a squandering of public money and a scam to bail out banks that were addicted to profit. It is clear, however, that NAMA is not just a scandal; it is a state-run agency bordering on a criminal enterprise. In the opinion of People Before Profit, nothing less than an independent, cross-border investigation will do to get to the bottom of it. Who knew what? Who benefited financially from Project Eagle? Who was to receive money from the Isle of Man bank account? Which other Members in the Chamber had relationships or clear conflicts of interest with those involved in the NAMA affair that they did not declare? Those questions need to be asked, and they need to be answered soon. It is time that we brought the crooks in suits to heel.

Jim Allister (Traditional Unionist Voice, North Antrim)

Just this time last year, the then First Minister, Mr Peter Robinson, described Mr Frank Cushnahan as a pillar of the establishment. Anyone who watched the jaw-dropping 'Spotlight' programme of a couple of weeks ago might well have thought that that statement said more about the establishment than anything else. Of course, the establishment, then as now, is the DUP and Sinn Féin.

As Steven Agnew rightly said, there are two distinct aspects to this. There is the potential criminality, whether it was rucksacks of cash or hoards of money in secret accounts in the Isle of Man. Who were they for, and was there any corruption involved? All of that is for rigorous, relentless and uncompromising criminal investigation, and I am happy that that takes its course. However, as the Republic of Ireland's Audit Committee said, there is also the question of whether there was political influence. That is where this House should come into the equation, in seeking to hunt down whether there was political influence that laid the basis that facilitated and was part of that which was rotten in all of the NAMA escapade.

Of course, there are many issues to investigate that do not impinge on the criminal investigation. There is the issue of how and why Mr Sammy Wilson as Finance Minister made the three recommendations that he did for suitable persons to serve on the committee: Frank Cushnahan, Mr Pengelly and, as we now discover, a third individual, Mr Adair, who never even knew that he had been nominated. He did not discover that until years later, and he himself had the wit to say that, because he was a debtor to NAMA, he would be wholly unsuitable to be appointed. What does that tell us about the due diligence that was conducted by Sammy Wilson in making those recommendations? Was there the same lack of due diligence in recommending Frank Cushnahan, whom the PAC of this House said had behaved totally unethically over Red Sky and the Housing Executive?

The second issue of political investigation is one of the things in the programme that intrigued me most. Frank Cushnahan explained to Mr Miskelly years before this became DUP executive policy that the way forward in NAMA was to extricate the NAMA debt and transfer it outside of NAMA to a third party so that deals could then be done. Lo and behold, that exactly became the policy of the First Minister and the Finance Minister, and, it seems, the deputy First Minister. It was to back foreign vulture companies coming in and buying the debt, and, of course, we know that the very reason that the PIMCO deal fell apart is that one of the beneficiaries of that apparently was to be the man whose original idea it was and whose friends — they professed themselves his friends — then took it up and ran with it and delivered. Is that not something of political influence that this House should be investigating? It patently is.

Then from that programme, there is the suggestion from Mr Cushnahan that Peter and Sammy could lobby for a bit of a discount on the NAMA price. Did that happen? Is the House not interested to know whether that happened? Does the House want to hide its head in the sand? I understand that some to whom this comes too close do want to hide their head in the sand. They want to build a barrier and say, "Oh, the National Crime Agency is interested". As we heard at the start of the debate, there is no sub judice issue here.

Patsy McGlone (Deputy Speaker, Mid Ulster)

Will the Member draw his remarks to a close, please?

Jim Allister (Traditional Unionist Voice, North Antrim)

We know that we are entitled to talk about and investigate these matters. Some would rather hide from them. It will be a test of this House whether or not it hides from them.

Máirtín Ó Muilleoir (Sinn Féin, Belfast South)

Is deas bheith anseo leat inniu, agus ba mhaith liom buíochas a thabhairt do gach Comhalta a ghlac páirt sa díospóireacht inniu. I thank all the Members who contributed to the debate, and I have no doubt that this discussion will run in the House and outside it, despite the fears of the previous Member to speak, who spoke about discussion or debate being closed down.

In essence, as was touched on by many Members, this is a discussion around who benefited from the NAMA/Cerberus deal and also around who benefited from the recession that blighted this island and who suffered. It is really a tale of hair shirts and silk shirts. We know today that we were told at the time of the property crash by the bankers, by Mr Noonan and the Irish Government and by others in positions of power that we would all be in this together and that, if there were hair shirts to be worn, they would be worn by everyone. However, in the years since, the reality has been that the suffering and hardship has been the monopoly of working-class people and middle-class people. In fact, those who wreaked havoc on this country through their speculative deals and their reckless behaviour, whether bankers or large property developers, have in fact done well.

I will illustrate that with a tale of two cities. One of the developers — one of the speculators — who alone racked up around €0·5 billion in debt and owned property across this jurisdiction and further afield, received a loan from the Anglo Irish Bank that was guaranteed against his shares in the bank, so that, when the loan went bad, he lost nothing, which was another example of the golden circle at work. Whilst living in exile — as a tax exile — he received a call from a gentleman who, we know from 'Spotlight' and other sources, was at the heart of the controversy and was told to come back to Belfast. He was told, "We will sort out your debt", and he came back. We know that Our Lord healed the lame, but the miraculous work done with that debt was truly breathtaking. The debt disappeared, and the individual was made whole in terms of his debt. He then got a bonus payment by receiving all the land and property of John Miskelly. While ordinary people have gone through hardship, damage, lengthening unemployment queues and emigration, what has happened? He is back this week, in the Market area of south Belfast, with an office development — a monstrous office development — in a working-class street. I do not think that there is a precedent anywhere in Europe for a development like that going right in the middle of somewhere like the Market estate. The person responsible is living the life that he lived before the crash.

We see that tale of one city, where the golden circle has done well and is doing well. For the record, I will oppose the right of that individual to inflict that development on the Market. My colleagues in South Belfast who have supported that development should, perhaps, when they talk about who was involved in NAMA and what happened, think about whether they are the doing the right thing in supporting the golden circle rather than the people of the Market.

Let us talk about the other side of that coin. One of my constituents wrote to me about being caught in negative equity. We know that in one case the banks lent recklessly to speculators, but they did not suffer; they were made whole again. At the same time, banks encouraged ordinary working families to take out loans and more money, telling them, "It'll be OK. You can pay it back". What actually happened to those ordinary families across this jurisdiction and across the country? This lady writes:

"Myself and my husband bought a two-bedroom bungalow in south Belfast in May 2008 for £250,000. The value of this property is now £104,000. This was our family home. My mortgage was £220,000 from Halifax on an interest-only mortgage, and the payments were £750 per month. In May 2014, the Halifax demanded a capital and interest payment, which totalled over £1,400. I couldn't afford to pay that and thus defaulted on the mortgage. In September 2014, I asked the Halifax if we could sell the property, and they said as long as a negative equity application pack was completed they didn't see a problem. The property went on the market for sale; it was agreed at £112,000. I left the property at the end of October 2014 thinking it was sold and moved into rented accommodation in Lisburn, even though my son went to school in Belfast. I couldn't afford the rental prices asked in Belfast."

That lady had no one to call. She was not connected to the golden circle to have her debt forgiven. She continued:

"In January 2015, I appeared at Belfast court for repossession. At that point, I was advised that the Halifax were being investigated and thus the repossession could not take place. The property is still in my name, and I am still incurring default charges against a mortgage. I haven't heard anything else in relation to the repossession. In July 2015, I appeared in Newtownards Crown Court for non-payment of rates. I stood in front of the judge who did not know what to do with me and finally asked me to leave. I cannot begin to tell you the amount of pressure and stress that I have been under in relation to this matter."

She then speaks about her personal health difficulties:

"Notwithstanding the above, I can now not move forward with my life. My credit rating is on the floor, and I can't get credit for anything, not to mention another mortgage. I have no idea what the outcome of this will be. I have received no support from anyone in dealing with the bank, court, rates etc."

Patsy McGlone (Deputy Speaker, Mid Ulster)

Could I ask the Member to put this in the context of the motion, please?

Máirtín Ó Muilleoir (Sinn Féin, Belfast South)

Absolutely. Here is the context, a LeasCheann Comhairle. The bankers and speculators who were responsible for wrecking the country and were at the heart of the NAMA deal had their debt forgiven and are now back living high on the hog. This lady and people like her right across the country are suffering and having their lives destroyed by the same banking practices, but no one has managed to make them whole. Someone mentioned the £7 million in the Isle of Man at the heart of this: would it not be wonderful if we could do something with that to help ordinary people?

Roy Beggs (UUP, East Antrim)

Will the Member give way?

Máirtín Ó Muilleoir (Sinn Féin, Belfast South)

Mr Beggs, I think that some of the Members would like me to refer to their comments, so let us do a little bit of that.

Philip Smith opened. I do not think that anyone would disagree with him that there is a need to build confidence in these institutions; in fact, I think that accountancy practitioners, solicitors and those in high business in this country would agree with you that this affair — the NAMA/Cerberus scandal — has been damaging to all sectors of our community. Those of us who are involved in public life have been trying to do that. From my communications and dialogue with business in particular, I am confident that I enjoy the support of the business community. They know that we are determined to get to what some people call the truth or core of the NAMA/Cerberus deal.

John O'Dowd said that the place for putting those responsible for wrongdoing was the courts. We would agree with that, but, at the same time, none of us will hold back any arm of the Assembly or Executive if they wish to engage in further investigation. The point is made by all sides that, if justice is to be done — truth is one thing, and I hope that we get to that; we will try to do so — it will most likely be done by the agencies of the state, the NCA, an Garda Síochána, and the FBI or the SEC in the States.

Claire Hanna spoke, and I welcome the fact that the SDLP's sister party in the South of Ireland, the Labour Party, has now agreed to support a commission of investigation into the NAMA/Cerberus deal and Project Eagle. When I raised the question over many years, the Labour Party, when in government, supported Mr Noonan in not having an investigation of NAMA. Worse than that — it was an insult to the Committee — NAMA refused repeatedly, as mentioned by others, to appear in front of us. Of course, the allegations that were made at the Finance Committee by politicians from all sides have been proven to have merit, and NAMA now has to answer them.

Ms Pengelly, the Chair of the Committee, has asked that we stand aside, I think she said, and allow the NCA to investigate the matter. I think that we are all agreed that the NCA will do its job and will have the full support of me as Minister of Finance and, I think, of every Member of the Assembly. I should add that I met the NCA in Lisburn last Thursday. I know that there has been some suggestion here that political interference — "political influence", I think was the term used — might stop the NCA in its tracks; I do not believe that that is the case. I believe that the NCA is pursuing this in a dogged, diligent and meticulous manner. The NCA is resolved to try to bring a case against those who were responsible for the fraud that, I believe, was at the heart of the deal. Of course, the evidence of that is the £7 million in the Isle of Man.

It is worth putting it on record that Stephen Farry defended Judith Cochrane's record on the Committee. While she and I did not agree on every decision that was made, she made a really positive contribution to the Finance Committee and to the investigation.

Mr Farry said that, in Dublin, the Taoiseach reached out to other parties and asked for a united front and a coming together in relation to the investigation. That decision by the Taoiseach came late in the day, but the point is well made, and I hope that there is some common ground here. While I have no doubt that there may be some party politicking going on — I would never do that — there is some common ground in that we all want to get to the truth of this situation.

Mr Maskey said that the Sinn Féin amendment is superior because it is not as narrow as the motion or the amendment from the SDLP. He talked, as Mr Carroll did, about the disgraceful burden on ordinary people.

Mr Chambers referred to public confidence. What we are doing today, Mr Chambers, in part will send out a message to our supporters from all parties that we want to, as you say, lance this poisonous boil.

Mr Mullan rightly pointed out that we are talking about the greatest financial scandal in a generation and the biggest property deal in the history of this state. For those reasons, it is absolutely essential that, as he says, we get to the truth. He suggested that the Executive should not be allowed a veto on the investigation. Perhaps he is on the Finance Committee and has met the NCA; I do not know. If he does meet the NCA, the FBI or the gardaí, he will be sure that there will not be any veto by anyone over the criminal investigations. That is why Sinn Féin has supported a commission of investigation from the Irish Government and why we are arguing that it has to be cross-border.

Steven Agnew referred to the criminal and the political and pointed out the dichotomy. He insisted that we can do more to reveal political shenanigans in relation to this deal. Mr Agnew, we all agree with doing that in the pursuit of truth. It is about finding the correct mechanism to do it. I am sure that the Green Party would support the idea of the commission of investigation in Dublin being truly all-Ireland.

My colleague Mr Allister finished off by railing against political influence and the hint or smell of political influence over this deal. I can assure him that I have no fear about all the investigations. I suspect that the investigations by the Assembly may not be as thorough as we would want because we do not have the powers. I think that we would all agree with him on that. I hope that he supports the all-island approach to the matter, as we do.

A LeasCheann Comhairle, an bhfuil mo chuid ama istigh? Ba mhaith liom buíochas a thabhairt do gach duine arís as a gcuid pointí.

Alex Attwood (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast West)

Can we be very clear on what this debate is about? It is about whether we have higher levels of accountability or lesser levels of accountability. If there is a conflict and tension in the Chamber, it is between both of those. We know that the DUP wants to resist higher levels of accountability on this matter. The issue is this: does Sinn Féin also support resistance to higher levels of accountability on this issue?

The one DUP speaker, Mrs Pengelly, said that it is "bizarre and perverse" — her words — for anybody to ignore the advice of the NCA. Is Mrs Pengelly saying to the British Government that, when they called for a commission of inquiry into the events and issues around the murder of Stephen Lawrence at the very time when there was an ongoing criminal investigation and, if my memory is right, criminal prosecution, that was bizarre and perverse? Are Mrs Pengelly and the DUP saying to the Public Accounts Committee in Dublin, before which certain senior people in NAMA will appear this week, that it is bizarre and perverse for that investigation to be going on? Is she saying to the Irish Government, which will perhaps announce a commission of investigation by the end of this week, that it is perverse and bizarre for them to ignore the advice of the NCA? The words "bizarre and perverse" are a smokescreen to deny accountability; let us be very clear about that. Otherwise, how can you explain what the Irish Government will do or what the Lawrence inquiry did? They were able to navigate between the criminal investigation on one hand and the requirements for accountability on the other. Let not this Chamber allow a smokescreen to be sent out in relation to this matter through the voices of the DUP. As other people have said, the issues of appointment, the MOU, the meetings, the phone calls that involved more than one party in the North, and the discounts are all matters that are outwith the criminal investigation and must be interrogated by the appropriate authorities on the island of Ireland.

My question, however, is to Sinn Féin, who Mr Maskey says have produced an amendment that is more comprehensive and inclusive than the amended Ulster Unionist motion under the SDLP proposal. Let me ask Sinn Féin this question: as a party that purports to be all-Ireland, why are you resisting a call for the appropriate authorities — the NCA and the Garda — to consider an all-Ireland joint investigation team in respect of the criminal matters?

Claire Hanna (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast South)

Will the Member give way?

Alex Attwood (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast West)

I will give way to the Member.

Claire Hanna (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast South)

Does the Member not find it surprising that the Sinn Féin amendment also deletes the requirement for the First Ministers to give a statement to the Assembly?

Alex Attwood (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast West)

I will deal with that matter in a second. How can Sinn Féin, who support all-Ireland in everything else, vote down a proposal for an all-Ireland criminal investigation if that is what the NCA and the Garda Síochána wish?

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

Will the Member give way?

Alex Attwood (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast West)

I will give way in a second, because my next point arises from what Mr O'Dowd said earlier. He said that Mr Smith had over-read the Sinn Féin amendment because it deleted the reference to reputational damage — that that was meant to be included. If it was meant to be included, Mr O'Dowd, include it by supporting the SDLP amendment to the Ulster Unionist motion, which makes it explicit that reputational damage has arisen. I will give way to the Member.

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

In reverse order, first, I did not say that it was meant to be included. I said that they were reading too much into its omission. Regarding the all-Ireland nature of any inquiry, our amendment makes it quite clear:

"committing to full cooperation with all ongoing investigations."

Minister Ó Muilleoir has already made it clear that he will attend those investigations, and the deputy First Minister has made it clear that he will attend those investigations. May I also remind the Member that his party's amendment does not call for any action. It recommends "consideration" of action.

Alex Attwood (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast West)

It recommends:

"consideration ... of a joint investigation team".

Why? Because it is not the role of the Assembly to tell a policing authority how to conduct its affairs, but it is the role of the Assembly to give best advice. Let us give best advice by recommending what an all-Ireland investigation might be able to achieve.

Patsy McGlone (Deputy Speaker, Mid Ulster)

The Member has an extra minute.

Alex Attwood (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast West)

Secondly, the issue of reputational damage has been deleted, so let us put it in. Thirdly, let us put in the fact that the First Minister and deputy First Minister should make a statement to the Assembly. For some reason or another, Sinn Féin deletes the fact that the First Minister and deputy First Minister should make a statement —

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

No.

Alex Attwood (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast West)

— but has deleted the fact that it is a statement to the Assembly.

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

We have not.

Alex Attwood (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast West)

Read your words, Mr O'Dowd. Your words see the First Minister and deputy First Minister rush to the sound —

Patsy McGlone (Deputy Speaker, Mid Ulster)

Order. I ask the Member to take his seat, please. I would request normal debate in the Chamber and not remarks from sedentary positions.

Alex Attwood (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast West)

Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker.

Let the First Minister and deputy First Minister make a statement to the Assembly. Otherwise, it is a rush to the sound of clicking cameras, not to the sound of Members' hard questions on accountability.

Finally, why has Sinn Féin deleted —

Patsy McGlone (Deputy Speaker, Mid Ulster)

Will the Member draw his remarks to a close, please?

Alex Attwood (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast West)

— any reference to the NCA? It is coy about the NCA, so let us put the NCA back in. Let Sinn Féin accept higher levels of accountability —

Patsy McGlone (Deputy Speaker, Mid Ulster)

The Member's time is up.

Alex Attwood (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast West)

— by accepting the SDLP amendment.

Patsy McGlone (Deputy Speaker, Mid Ulster)

The Member's time is up.

Caitriona Ruane (Deputy Speaker, South Down)

First of all, I apologise to the Assembly for not being here for the start of the debate: I was chairing an official event — the Positive Futures event — in the Senate Chamber. I meant no disrespect to the Assembly, and I view the subject of the debate as a very important issue affecting people right across the island of Ireland.

I heard many of the Members who spoke. Like the Minister, I find it incredible that, as people struggle every day to pay their bills, rent or mortgage, they are listening to the media talk about insider dealings and millions lost to the taxpayer and are shaking their heads in disbelief. I echo the question posed by our Minister of Finance: who benefited and who suffered? It is essential —

Eamonn McCann (People Before Profit Alliance, Foyle)

Will the Member give way?

Caitriona Ruane (Deputy Speaker, South Down)

If I could just develop this, and then I will give way.

It is essential that we get to the truth of what happened, that the people who acted wrongly pay the price and that the taxpayer should not bear the brunt of the money lost. We need to ensure that there is a way of recouping the money so that it can be invested in our health and education sectors, in building our badly needed infrastructure or in supporting the people I just heard talking about their children with learning disabilities.

Sinn Féin has consistently — I will say it again — consistently raised concerns about the operation of and the culture of secrecy in NAMA. To listen to Mr Attwood, you would think it is Sinn Féin that is the problem here, rather than the people who have done the insider dealing and the people who have gained millions. I think people really need to wake up and smell the coffee and look at the work that Sinn Féin — our finance spokespersons, our deputy leader and our leader — has done North and South to expose the whole issue of NAMA.

I have a question for Alex Attwood — I will give him the Floor and will then give it to you, Eamonn McCann. Did the SDLP make a submission to the Taoiseach re the terms of reference for NAMA, the deadline for which was last Friday?

Alex Attwood (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast West)

I am pleased to respond. Beyond the issue of submission, we have had conversations with the Irish Labour Party about how to scale up. Our party leader met Micheál Martin, the leader of Fianna Fáil, and I personally have spoken to a representative of the Irish Government on this matter.

Caitriona Ruane (Deputy Speaker, South Down)

I welcome that clarification. I will now give way to Eamonn McCann.

Eamonn McCann (People Before Profit Alliance, Foyle)

My question is this: does the Member agree that, in the light of the extremely serious and profoundly disturbing matters we are discussing today, it would be appropriate now to invite Mr Conall McDevitt to return to the House and resume his career?

Caitriona Ruane (Deputy Speaker, South Down)

I will leave that matter to the SDLP.

Sinn Féin believes that we need an all-Ireland commission of investigation. I will say it again, because people do not seem to understand or hear what we are saying about that: we believe we need an all-Ireland commission of investigation, and its remit must be wider than Project Eagle. It should examine the full operation of NAMA. The UUP's motion lacks ambition. We believe that the least effective route to take is an inquiry by the Finance Committee. You only need to look at NAMA's refusal to appear before it. What we need is an all-Ireland commission with powers. It is also worrying that, while all these questions remain unanswered, NAMA continues to sell off assets.

There is the recent report from the Comptroller and Auditor General on the disposal of the Northern loan book, yet we do not have a copy of it. I note that our Minister of Finance, Máirtín Ó Muilleoir, has written to the Minister for Finance, Michael Noonan, requesting a copy of the report. Have we got a copy of it yet? Has our Minister of Finance got a copy?

In that letter, Minister Ó Muilleoir reiterated that his Department will cooperate and work fully with the investigation. That is to be welcomed. As my colleague John O'Dowd said, Martin McGuinness will attend the PAC in the interests of transparency and openness. I welcome that as well because Sinn Féin wants to see truth. We want to see our citizens get the resources they need. We do not want to see people who abused power or who are party to insider dealings —

Patsy McGlone (Deputy Speaker, Mid Ulster)

I ask the Member to draw her remarks to a close.

Caitriona Ruane (Deputy Speaker, South Down)

— getting away with it.

Patsy McGlone (Deputy Speaker, Mid Ulster)

I call Mike Nesbitt to conclude and wind up the debate on the substantive motion.

Mike Nesbitt (UUP, Strangford)

I rise on a significant day for the House: the first Opposition day. It is different from the Opposition that we had in the 1960s and 1970s; for the first time, you have parties of official Opposition that are entirely committed to making these institutions work. I welcome the engagement of our colleagues in the SDLP on this matter. We have said that we, as an Opposition, will be positive. What better sign could you have than my colleague Mr Chambers quoting Lord Morrow positively? I welcome it, but I ask you not to repeat it.

The proverbial visitor to Planet Northern Ireland a couple of weeks ago, if looking at the Order Paper for our first day of business, would have been forgiven for not realising that there had been an EU referendum and a vote to quit Brussels or that there was any controversy around NAMA. There was no mention of the cash allegedly exchanged in a hospital car park or of the fact that one of the 108 MLAs who went off on summer recess did not return, forced to resign — whether they jumped or were pushed is an open matter — over allegedly trying to coach a witness appearing in front of a Statutory Committee. There is no room in the House or these institutions for ostrich politics. It is a disrespectful attitude to the House.

Mr O'Dowd accused my colleague Philip Smith of being fixated with the Northern Ireland Executive. We are the Opposition, and it is our job to scrutinise. The Executive represent the House, so it is entirely proper for us to raise questions about the role of the Northern Ireland Executive. Yes, the courts are the right place, and the National Crime Agency is the primary investigatory body, but the fact that the NCA is involved should not be used as a convenient excuse.

While I welcome the contributions of all who took part in the debate, I record my disappointment in the remarks of the Member for South Belfast Mrs Emma Little Pengelly, who appears to be in denial. Her criticism of our motion was unfair and inaccurate. Her remarks were nothing more than a party political diatribe. She stated that the NCA says, "Do not initiate another investigation in your Committee". At no point in our motion do we say that there should be a Committee investigation running in parallel with the work of the NCA. In fact, the only mention of an inquiry by the Committee for Finance is in the last sentence, which states that it is an:

"inquiry that should be undertaken by the Committee for Finance."

It does not say that it should be undertaken immediately. If Mrs Little Pengelly had listened to Mr Smith, she might have realised her error.

Emma Little-Pengelly (DUP, Belfast South)

Will the Member give way?

Mike Nesbitt (UUP, Strangford)

Oh, Deputy Speaker, Mrs Little Pengelly asked me to give way. Does she not realise that this is a debating Chamber, where we expect give and take? Does she not recall that she would not give way to me? She did not give, so she is not going to take.

Mr Chambers gave a very detailed analysis of the reputational damage that is being done to Northern Ireland and to this Chamber over what has happened with NAMA. The fact is that, internationally, we are a "ba-NAMA republic". He made the point that Lord Morrow made: we should not kick the man; we should kick the ball. On that basis, I welcome the remarks of Claire Hanna, who referred to Sammy Wilson's ridiculous attack on not on the ball but the man with the ball: the BBC journalist whom he accused of having ridiculous bias. The question for Mr Wilson and his successor as Finance Minister is this: what due diligence did the Department undertake before recommending Mr Frank Cushnahan for the role? I will very readily give way to the Minister if he will tell us what due diligence he has undertaken. Minister, have you satisfied yourself that due diligence occurred?

Máirtín Ó Muilleoir (Sinn Féin, Belfast South)

I am very happy. Leslie Cree could have advised you on this one. He did a great job on the Committee as well. This question was asked many times of the Department. The Department's answer — you will see it in Hansard — is that it has no record of any due diligence being carried out in relation to any of these nominations.

Mike Nesbitt (UUP, Strangford)

There is a ministerial code. Let me quote what it says under "Openness":

"Holders of public office should be as open as possible about all the decisions and actions that they take. They should give reasons for their decisions and restrict information only when the wider public interest clearly demands."

You restrict information only when the wider public interest clearly demands, yet we have had the debate about the appointment of the so-called Executive press officer and the fact that, without reference to the scrutiny Committee, the First Minister and the deputy First Minister assumed the powers of a monarch to make Mr Gordon their new press secretary.

There is something else, Mr Deputy Speaker. I ask you to take this away and examine the answers that the First Minister and the deputy First Minister have given since 23 June 2016 to questions from the Floor of the Chamber with regard to what preparation the Executive conducted ahead of the vote on the European referendum. As we now know, there is a document dated as early as May 2015 — 'Preliminary analysis on the impact of a UK referendum on its membership of the European Union' — that gives a very stark analysis of what would happen to Northern Ireland if the UK voted to Brexit. I must say to you, Deputy Speaker, that, as Chair of the legacy Committee for the Office of the First Minister and deputy First Minister, I was totally unaware of that document. I will move on because I know that you want me to refocus on the debate. You showed some latitude to the Minister, and I appreciate your reciprocating on this occasion.

It comes down to this: as Mr Smith said, it is about reputational damage. What do the people of Northern Ireland, who increasingly do not bother voting in Assembly elections, think of us in the Chamber? What do they think of the Executive who represent us? What does the international community think, the people whom we ask Invest Northern Ireland to encourage to come to work with us as foreign direct investors? What do they think when they see millions of pounds in the Isle of Man, tens of thousands of pounds in cars in hospital car parks, information withheld and information allegedly shared most inappropriately with those who perhaps have a conflict of interest?

I find it extraordinary that Sinn Féin removed any reference to the reputational damage that was in the original motion. Do they not realise the damage that is being done? How could they not, with their links to Irish America? Yes, they call on the First Minister and the deputy First Minister to make a statement, but they have taken out the words that we put in our motion: make a statement "before the Assembly". Is the Assembly not the prior and primary body? Is this not the place where they should come first to tell us what they think? Yet Sinn Féin has taken that out. Mr O'Dowd nods at me in agreement, yet it is not in their amendment. Mr Maskey says that he does not understand why we are calling for the First Minister and the deputy First Minister to make a statement, yet their amendment calls for the First Minister and the deputy First Minister to make a statement.

Alex Maskey (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

Will the Member give way?

Mike Nesbitt (UUP, Strangford)

You would not give way for me. It is give and take: if you do not give, you do not get to take. That is the way of it.

There is no openness. There is no transparency. There is an NCA investigation, which is an investigation, not a convenient excuse to ignore the will of the House. We will not support the Sinn Féin amendment. We have no difficulty with what the SDLP proposes, as it is fine and balanced to say that it recommends consideration of the creation of a joint investigation team of the NCA and an Garda Síochána. We will support the SDLP amendment; we will not support the Sinn Féin amendment. I recommend the motion to the House.

Patsy McGlone (Deputy Speaker, Mid Ulster)

As Question Time begins at 2.00 pm, I suggest that the House take its ease until then. After Question Time, we will return to the debate on public confidence after the NAMA revelations, when I will put the Question on amendment No 1.

The debate stood suspended.

(Mr Speaker in the Chair)

Oral Answers to Questions — Communities

Robin Swann (UUP, North Antrim)

1. Mr Swann asked the Minister for Communities to outline the programmes in place to ensure people receive the benefits to which they are entitled. (AQO 294/16-21)

Paul Givan (DUP, Lagan Valley)

I am committed to ensuring that those people who have rightful entitlement are receiving all the benefits and other supports and services that they are eligible for. Since 2005, my Department has delivered benefit uptake programmes and, more recently, I launched the new three-year strategic plan, 'Supporting People - Maximising Income through the Uptake of Benefits’ which has a vision to ensure that every individual and household across Northern Ireland is receiving all the social security benefits to which they and their families are entitled.

Over the next three years, we plan to target 100,000 people with the offer of a full benefit entitlement check and secure at least £40 million in additional benefits. We have a number of approaches to meet these targets, including writing out to older people who are not in receipt of certain benefits; the Make the Call advertising campaign; roadshows held in local communities to promote the uptake of benefits; a team of community outreach officers who will visit the vulnerable in their homes to assist in making a claim to benefits; and partnership working across government, the wider public sector and the voluntary and community sector. We will be extending these programmes to ensure that support is available for people who wish to claim personal independence payment (PIP) or who are impacted by other welfare changes. Between 2013 and 2016, under its previous three-year plan, 'Maximising Incomes & Outcomes: A 3 Year Plan for Improving the Uptake of Benefits', this generated over £48 million for over 13,000 people.

Robin Swann (UUP, North Antrim)

I thank the Minister for the update on those schemes. Equally important to targeting people who need benefits and are in receipt of them is to make sure that those who are not entitled to them do not get them. He may be aware that up to £800,000 was paid to prisoners between 2011 and 2014 and, since the system's upgrade, that data is no longer kept. What steps is he taking to recoup that money or make sure that it is not paid out incorrectly?

Paul Givan (DUP, Lagan Valley)

The Member raises an important issue that I have touched on before, which is the amount of investment that we put in for detecting fraud and error — often, there can be error in the system. There is significant investment put into that team who proactively go after benefits that have been paid incorrectly or, indeed, fraudulently. Where that has taken place and whatever examples are drawn to my attention today, such as those prisoners, I expect that, if any benefit is received in error or fraudulently, that money should be recouped.

Nichola Mallon (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast North)

Given that people can avail themselves of the one-year mitigation package only when they go through the appeals process, why has money not been specifically ring-fenced to advise, assist and support them through the appeals process? What guarantees can the Minister give that much-needed resources and money will not be diverted from front-line advice services?

Paul Givan (DUP, Lagan Valley)

I am happy to look at the particular example that the Member is referring to, around the one-year mitigation package and the funding that is available. Over the next four years, £2 million each year of Fresh Start moneys is being provided to organisations that are involved in providing independent support. People get support whenever they go through the system from the Social Security Agency, but, in addition to that, the Executive are putting additional moneys into organisations, such as Advice NI, to provide that extra help for individuals.

Christopher Stalford (DUP, Belfast South)

I welcome the launch of the three-year plan. Will the Minister give us a greater idea of what he hopes to achieve in increasing uptake? Precisely why do we need an uptake plan?

Paul Givan (DUP, Lagan Valley)

The evidence has shown the success that we have had. For every £1 that we put into encouraging people to get the benefits to which they are entitled, we get a £12 return. It is something that has a clear track record of delivery, and I want to make sure that people who are entitled to benefit receive it. Often, for some people, and particularly the older generation, there is almost a stigma attached to claiming for such things. We need to make sure that we break down those barriers. I urge Members to encourage their constituents to make that call. If people are entitled to receive benefit, I would much rather that the money flows out of the Treasury and comes to Northern Ireland and ultimately benefits our local economy. Over the next three years, the commitment is to secure at least £40 million in additional benefits by 2019 to directly target a minimum of 100,000 people and ensure a full check on the benefits that they are entitled to.

Philip McGuigan

Will the Minister make an assessment of the Make the Call campaign taken forward in conjunction with the Older People’s Commissioner.

Paul Givan (DUP, Lagan Valley)

I was able to launch this event at Lagan Valley Island in Lisburn, and we had the Older People’s Commissioner with us. He has an important role to play, and he recognises, as I do, the issues around older people having the confidence to make the call. This has been successful, and, for older people especially, there are benefits that they are entitled to that they do not claim. There should be no shame whatsoever attached to individuals who have worked all their lives and, in their twilight years, need support. It is only right that this campaign receives our support.

Jim Allister (Traditional Unionist Voice, North Antrim)

The Fresh Start document boasted that there would be a ring-fenced £25 million to hunt down fraud. I ask the Minister for an update. Is that money being drawn down? How is it being spent, and with what effect?

Paul Givan (DUP, Lagan Valley)

I remember there was a question from Mr Agnew about this. There is money being spent on fraud detection, and a specific team was established to deal with the detection of error and fraud. The money is there, it will be invested and it will yield results, because we want to ensure that the people who are entitled to support receive it and those who are not entitled to it are pursued rigorously. It is something that I intend to take forward.

Roy Beggs (UUP, East Antrim)

2. Mr Beggs asked the Minister for Communities to outline the extent of defective cavity wall insulation in Northern Ireland Housing Executive homes. (AQO 295/16-21)

Paul Givan (DUP, Lagan Valley)

There is a UK-wide problem with cavity wall insulation that was installed in the 1980s. The degrading or failure of this insulation affects all housing tenures, not just social housing. The Northern Ireland Housing Executive estimates that around 62,000 of its houses have full cavity wall insulation and a further 9,000 have partial cavity wall insulation. No comprehensive survey of the condition of cavity wall insulation in Housing Executive homes has been undertaken. The Housing Executive will carry out a representative sample of cavity inspections in the future, as part of its cyclical maintenance scheme surveys, to determine whether the cavity has been filled and, if it has, what condition the insulation is in. Dwellings identified, where the cavity wall insulation is deemed to be severely or critically inadequate, will be addressed by the Housing Executive through response maintenance or through the planned maintenance program.

Roy Beggs (UUP, East Antrim)

I understand that many Housing Executive homes and former Housing Executive homes were insulated using fibre and that there are particular problems with fibre where it settles and creates voids that can result in a cold home. Even worse, there can be damp fibre, which results in it being a conductor rather than an insulator. Can the Minister assure me that there is adequate training of Housing Executive staff and contractors so that they can quickly identify where damp fibre, which results in the ill health of tenants and in fuel poverty, is a problem?

Paul Givan (DUP, Lagan Valley)

I am happy to relay those concerns directly to the Housing Executive. I have been in properties where I have been concerned about condensation and the impact it can have on damp, particularly where you have older people or children. It is important that, when we identify those type of severely inadequate facilities, they are responded to. That is something that the Housing Executive does through its response program. Obviously, there is a much longer-term problem with the investment that is needed in Housing Executive stock. In addition to cavity wall insulation, it impacts on a whole range of areas in Housing Executive properties, meaning that there is a need for investment. The public funding is not there to do what is required, which means that alternative solutions need to be put forward.

Gerry Mullan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, East Londonderry)

Can the Minister confirm the number of Northern Ireland Housing Executive homes across Northern Ireland where damp and condensation have been identified as a problem? What action is he taking to remedy this plague that is affecting Northern Ireland Housing Executive homes across every constituency?

Paul Givan (DUP, Lagan Valley)

I am happy to try to get the information for the Member in respect of the number of reports that there have been for damp or condensation in Housing Executive properties across Northern Ireland, but, as indicated, it is something that I recognise is a challenge for the Housing Executive with the budget that it has, dealing with stock as it is and the need to continue to supply new stock. These are challenges that the social housing sector is facing. It is one that should not be underestimated and, indeed, as the Office for National Statistics reports, I think that it will become something that requires urgent attention.

Oliver McMullan (Sinn Féin, East Antrim)

Most of what I was going to ask has already been asked, but will the Minister outline the steps that he will take immediately to ensure that the Housing Executive stock will be maintained? Will he give an assurance that those houses that have cavity wall insulation that is giving bother will be dealt with immediately?

Paul Givan (DUP, Lagan Valley)

I will crystallise again for Members that the Housing Executive has identified that it requires £6·7 billion of investment in its stock over the next 30 years. So, to break it down to the next 10 years, the Housing Executive needs £2·6 billion, which is £700 million more than the Housing Executive expects to have. The quantum of moneys that we are talking about for investment in stock and new build is hundreds of millions of pounds. That presents a very real challenge to the Executive.

David Hilditch (DUP, East Antrim)

I thank the Minister for the detail that he has given us so far. Is addressing the defective cavity wall insulation a priority for the Northern Ireland Housing Executive?

Paul Givan (DUP, Lagan Valley)

There is a response to those serious needs that are identified when maintenance officers check facilities as a result of complaints and so on, and I know that, in his constituency, a number of issues were identified when the Housing Executive looked at 35 properties in the Ballymena, Larne and Carrickfergus area after cold, damp or condensation problems were reported. After investigation, including borescope testing, it was found that the properties had no cavity wall insulation at all or that the existing insulation had degraded. The Housing Executive has advised that it plans to appoint a consultant to carry out a feasibility study for those properties that were identified.

Steven Agnew (Green, North Down)

The Minister will be aware that a number of properties in Bangor were identified as having defective cavity wall insulation. That report was made a number of years ago. What has been happening in the meantime?

Paul Givan (DUP, Lagan Valley)

A report was carried out by the South Eastern Regional College (SERC), which the Member may well be referring to. That was in August 2013. The Housing Executive appointed SERC to carry out research to establish whether there were quality and effectiveness issues with cavity wall insulation in its properties. That involved only a small survey of 206 properties across Northern Ireland. That report focused on the single issue in a very limited number of houses and took no account of the investment needs of other housing stock or, indeed, even if replacement cavity wall insulation was the priority investment needed for the houses surveyed. The findings of the report, therefore, whilst not irrelevant, have been superseded by the comprehensive data provided by the stock condition survey and the Housing Executive's adoption of its new asset management strategy to shape its future investment priorities.

Robin Newton (Speaker, Belfast East)

Before I come to the next question, I should have informed Members that question 14 has been withdrawn.

Richie McPhillips (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

3. Mr McPhillips asked the Minister for Communities to outline the number of jobs impacted by the decision to downgrade local jobs and benefits offices. (AQO 296/16-21)

Paul Givan (DUP, Lagan Valley)

Jobs and benefits offices across Northern Ireland play an important role in supporting unemployed claimants to get into work and to provide them with benefit information and advice. Jobs and benefits offices will continue to play a key customer-facing role as universal credit is rolled out during 2017, and I can confirm that there are no plans to downgrade local jobs and benefits offices.

Richie McPhillips (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

I thank the Minister for his answer. This is an issue that concerns many people in my constituency due to the downgrading of the Enniskillen office and the negative impact that it will have on service users and staff. This is simply another case of Belfast getting it all and Fermanagh losing out. Is the Minister satisfied, following the Housing Executive's decision to move its grants office out of Enniskillen, that rural proofing legislation been strictly adhered to? Is he satisfied that those service users impacted will be able to avail themselves of local services following the centralisation?

Paul Givan (DUP, Lagan Valley)

The premise for the supplementary from the Member is entirely false — to suggest that it is Belfast first, and the rest of the country second. I represent the Lagan Valley constituency, and am always happy to see what I can get out of Belfast — which is seven miles down the road, never mind 70-plus miles down the road.

In respect of the issue that the Member has raised about the Housing Executive grants office, there has been a consultation process. I am happy to confirm that, as a result of that consultation process, the grants office in Enniskillen will be remaining, and the six members of staff will not be moving to Omagh. There will be some changes in how the service is delivered, but fundamentally the grants office in Enniskillen will be remaining open.

With regard to how universal credit is going to be rolled out, the key centres for the delivery of universal credit as a result of the welfare reform changes are going to be a location in Newry, which is outside Belfast; Foyle, which again is outside Belfast; and there will be a Belfast element of universal credit being delivered.

Then we take into account the announcement by the Department of Work and Pensions (DWP) in London. Here in Northern Ireland, there are 1,400 jobs being provided to deliver services on welfare right across Great Britain. Only last week I was able to announce a further 280 jobs being established in Northern Ireland, as a result of the work that we are doing on behalf of DWP. The majority are going to be located in Belfast, where existing services operate, but I was able to announce that 55 jobs are going to be located in Armagh. That came on the back of significant lobbying from my colleague William Irwin, who tortured me around it, and also other Members: Cathal Boylan came to see me; Danny Kennedy also came to see me; and SDLP MLA Justin McNulty, if memory serves me, came to see me as well.

Robin Newton (Speaker, Belfast East)

I remind the Minister of the two-minute rule.

Sandra Overend (UUP, Mid Ulster)

The Minister said he was determined to ensure that people in Northern Ireland claiming benefits can do so as easily as possible, and that he would not want to make it difficult for them, but there is a proposal to close the local jobs and benefits office in Cookstown. If the consultation turns out to be a fait accompli, can the Minister assure me that claimants from places like mid-Ulster and the surrounding rural area, who will lose their local jobs and benefits office, will not be out of pocket by having to travel to Magherafelt or somewhere else to sign on?

Paul Givan (DUP, Lagan Valley)

My colleague Keith Buchanan has already engaged with me on this issue and expressed his concern. He has raised the very issues that Mrs Overend is now raising here on the Floor of the Assembly. Obviously, there is a consultation process that has commenced in respect of offices in Cookstown, Newcastle and Ballynahinch. That is an eight-week consultation process, which members of the public and Members of this Assembly can engage with. There is detailed information which outlines where claimants are living, where they would have to travel to from areas such as Cookstown, Magherafelt and Dungannon, and the impact that that could have. There is a consultation process currently being completed, and I encourage people to avail themselves of that opportunity to make the case.

Keith Buchanan (DUP, Mid Ulster)

I thank the Minister for his answer so far. Just to highlight the point that the other Members referred to, I would like the Minister to understand the community concerns in relation to Cookstown's social security office and the jobcentre.

Paul Givan (DUP, Lagan Valley)

The Member relayed that to me quite forcefully in a meeting that I have already had with him about the impact that it has on the people in Cookstown. Again, I say to people to engage in the consultation process. Obviously we need to ensure that all of our buildings, right across all of the offices, are fit for purpose and are delivering the service that the individuals availing themselves of those services require. As demand changes, as need changes and as welfare reform is fundamentally changing how a lot of benefits are being delivered, we need to be in a position to respond effectively to that.

At times, that results in change. I accept that that then creates turbulence and can cause a lot of discomfort for some of the individuals who have to go through it. Obviously, I want to make sure that we take into account all the information that people will provide as part of the consultation process.

Sean Lynch (Sinn Féin, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

I welcome the Minister's announcement that the jobs will remain in Enniskillen. Will the workers carry out the same tasks or be allocated different roles in the future?

Paul Givan (DUP, Lagan Valley)

In respect of the position in Enniskillen, I know the First Minister was not particularly pleased when she caught wind of what was being proposed. I know it was reported in the 'Impartial Reporter' at the time. The Housing Executive, ultimately, takes the decisions; it has its own board. They are not decisions I take, but I know, having engaged with them on this, that they consulted the staff and looked at the properties that they either owned or leased. In Enniskillen, they own their property; therefore, the staff, as I understand it, who carry out the administration will be kept in Enniskillen. I believe there may be a member of staff availing themselves of the voluntary exit scheme. Obviously, it is about delivering those services to the people. What I will say is that, whilst there will be a front office available in Enniskillen, the Housing Executive's motivation for some of the changes it is taking forward is that it can get out to meet people in their own homes because of the accessibility issues for some of the individuals who require this support. That is a service that will be rolled out not just in Fermanagh and County Tyrone but in other areas.

Declan McAleer (Sinn Féin, West Tyrone)

4. Mr McAleer asked the Minister for Communities how Sport NI works with local councils to ensure a joined-up approach to facilities and provision for sport and physical activity in rural communities. (AQO 297/16-21)

Paul Givan (DUP, Lagan Valley)

My Department and Sport NI, an arm's-length body of the Department, are committed to providing facilities and provision for sport and physical activity in rural areas. At a strategic level, that provision is coordinated with the 11 councils through the Sport Matters strategy, which has 26 targets set under the three themes of participation, performance and places. Following a midterm review of the strategy in 2015, an action plan was published identifying actions for key partners, including district councils, the Department of Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs and Outdoor Recreation NI, which all have a focus on rural development. The action plan is reviewed twice yearly through the three Sport Matters implementation groups. The meetings are chaired by Sport NI board members and are attended by key partners, including representatives from the district councils. Feedback is provided by partners on their actions across a range of themes, including rural development, and is reported on annually. In addition, I chair the Sport Matters monitoring group, which meets twice yearly and at which I receive updates from each of the implementation groups.

The system of reporting under the Sport Matters strategy helps to ensure there is a joined-up approach between Sport NI and a range of partners, including councils, for the delivery of sports facilities and activities across rural and urban areas of Northern Ireland. At an operational level, Sport NI is a statutory partner in the council community planning process and participates in the strategic and themed working groups organised by councils. Sport NI has also been working in partnership with all district councils to develop a sports facilities framework, individual council area plans and a number of activity programmes, including Every Body Active 2020, to increase participation in sport and physical activity across Northern Ireland.

Declan McAleer (Sinn Féin, West Tyrone)

I thank the Minister for his answer. Can he give his estimation of the number of projects being funded by Sport NI in local areas?

Paul Givan (DUP, Lagan Valley)

I am happy to provide the Member with specific details about the number of activities Sport NI provides funding to. Obviously, there are capital programmes through which Sport NI provides assistance to clubs. It also provides funding to support coaches. For example, through the Active Communities programme, there is £13 million providing 116 coaches; in respect of the new participation programme, Every Body Active 2020, in rural areas, there is £6·2 million of lottery funding being invested across all 11 council areas; and there is £2 million of lottery funding for outdoor recreation facilities as well.

Adrian McQuillan (DUP, East Londonderry)

I thank the Minister for his answers so far. Minister, can you provide any examples of how Sport NI works with councils to coordinate the delivery of sports facilities?

Paul Givan (DUP, Lagan Valley)

Sport NI is working in partnership with councils to develop a sports facilities framework and associated council area plans. As part of that project, councils have identified existing sports facilities in their areas, including rural areas, and are identifying the need for additional facilities or improvements to facilities in their area. It is intended that the regional sports facilities framework and the council area plans will be used by all funding providers to inform the future provision of sports facilities across Northern Ireland. The council area plans have already been used to great effect to identify gaps in the provision of sports facilities that serve rural areas. My Department and Sport NI were able to work collaboratively with the Causeway Coast and Glens Borough Council to deliver new sports facilities in Coleraine and Dungiven and to identify the need for facilities to be improved at the Joey Dunlop leisure centre in Ballymoney.

Chris Lyttle (Alliance, Belfast East)

Will the Minister confirm his support for the agreed Executive investment in the redevelopment of Glentoran Football Club and community sports facilities in East Belfast?

Paul Givan (DUP, Lagan Valley)

I thank the Member for the question. Quite early in my time in office, I was able to meet Glentoran, along with the Member of Parliament for the area and, I think, the Speaker and Mr Douglas. A consultation process has been carried out on soccer stadia and their funding. The specific strands of that process have been concluded, and the analysis is, I understand, at the end stage, and recommendations will then come to me for a decision.

Steve Aiken (UUP, South Antrim)

Will the Minister outline the work being done by Sport NI in conjunction with the great Antrim and Newtownabbey Borough Council to promote a joint approach to sport and physical activity? Will he look specifically at the need for more facilities in the rural areas of Ballyclare, Crumlin and Randalstown?

Paul Givan (DUP, Lagan Valley)

I am always happy to do more in Antrim council area, particularly if the proposed boundary changes in South Antrim go through. I will be keen to look at that as things develop. Working with councils is important in addressing sporting need. Often, councils, through engaging at grass-roots level with the community, can identify where the need exists. I believe that, where I can partner with local government, that partnership approach provides a real opportunity for us going forward, and I will want to look at that and take it forward.

Stephen Farry (Alliance, North Down)

5. Dr Farry asked the Minister for Communities for an update on the implementation of the Enabling Success economic inactivity strategy. (AQO 298/16-21)

Paul Givan (DUP, Lagan Valley)

As the Member will know, Enabling Success was launched in April 2015 as the last Executive strategy for addressing Northern Ireland's very high rate of economic inactivity. The current draft Programme for Government framework not only carries forward that commitment but prioritises it as a key indicator for a range of economic and social outcomes. Over the summer months, my officials engaged widely but in a directly targeted way with a range of interests to develop a Programme for Government delivery plan outlining the actions that will be undertaken to address indicator 17, which is to "reduce economic inactivity". The delivery plan builds on the Enabling Success strategy and is informed by updated research from, amongst others, NISRA and Ulster University's Economic Policy Centre. The proposals in the delivery plan will be the subject of a full consultation as part of the next stage of the Programme for Government process in the coming weeks. The proposals set out are practical, evidence-based and radical, with a clear focus on prevention and early intervention, and they are set in an economic, health and well-being context. Subsequently, we will tackle economic inactivity through a collaborative effort from my Department, the Department of Health, the Department for the Economy and the Department of Education, as well as the Public Health Agency, the Health and Safety Executive, employers, employer organisations and other important stakeholders.

Stephen Farry (Alliance, North Down)

I thank the Minister for that answer. He will recognise that Northern Ireland now has the highest employment rate since records began in the modern era, but we still have a long way to go in tackling economic inactivity. Will the Minister confirm that he will seek to avoid a long process of setting this up, which, unfortunately, his answer seemed to imply? Will he confirm that, in the forthcoming Budget process, he will bid for resources to make the strategy real? In that regard, what consideration is being given to the moneys mentioned in the Stormont House Agreement that come from tackling error and fraud being directed to tackling economic inactivity?

Robin Newton (Speaker, Belfast East)

I ask the Minister to give a short answer.

Paul Givan (DUP, Lagan Valley)

The Member rightly highlights the success that we are having in achieving employment, but tackling the problem of those who are economically inactive is something that should cause us alarm, as our figures are above the UK average. However, let me assure the Member that that is something that I intend to take forward. Nevertheless, I am not convinced that tackling this issue is all about securing new money. We need to look at how we use existing funds better, how we better join up our health and work policy responses across the Executive in the context of the new Programme for Government, the new economic strategy, and Making Life Better, the Department of Health's public health framework, to ensure that we address this issue collaboratively.

Robin Newton (Speaker, Belfast East)

That ends the period for listed questions. We now move to 15 minutes of topical questions.

Sinéad Bradley (Social Democratic and Labour Party, South Down)

T1. Ms S Bradley asked the Minister for Communities what action he is taking to reassure those people who are in real distress, with some described today in the media as suicidal, given the disastrous breakdown of relations between HMRC and Concentrix. (AQT 216/16-21)

Paul Givan (DUP, Lagan Valley)

As the Member highlighted, this is an issue between HMRC and Concentrix; my Department does not have direct responsibility for the matter. Obviously, as issues emerge, we are always keen to help. In terms of people employed, I mentioned earlier the contract that we have from DWP to help to create 280 new jobs, 55 of which will go to Armagh and the others to Belfast. I want to ensure that my remit of trying to create opportunities for people to have employment is provided for in future. Ultimately, the Concentrix contract is a matter for HMRC, not my Department.

Robin Newton (Speaker, Belfast East)

Does the Member have a supplementary question?

Sinéad Bradley (Social Democratic and Labour Party, South Down)

Yes, please. Given the issue of child poverty, particularly reaching out to marginalised families who are no doubt the people affected in this, does the Minister not feel a sense of responsibility to put up an immediate fast-track system that will offer reassurance to those who are waiting to hear it today?

Paul Givan (DUP, Lagan Valley)

Of course, I have every sympathy for the impact that it is having on staff employed by Concentrix, which is as a result of HMRC's actions, not those of my Department. Like any other individual, I would like to expect that they would get support from my Department when they face difficulties and challenges. Ultimately, however, this is a matter for HMRC; it employs Concentrix, not me.

Sandra Overend (UUP, Mid Ulster)

T2. Mrs Overend asked the Minister for Communities whether he is satisfied that members of the planning committees in councils across Northern Ireland have received sufficient training to understand that they must make decisions as individuals. (AQT 217/16-21)

Paul Givan (DUP, Lagan Valley)

Elected representatives in local government should be familiar with the code of conduct that they must adhere to. The planning committee is a quasi-judicial function of the council, and that is something that needs to be taken seriously. In respect of that, councillors need to assure themselves that they are acting within the remit of the code. It is for councils to provide councillors with the support that they need. Where people feel that decisions are taken incorrectly, whether or not that is by the planning committee, they can avail themselves of the relevant challenge functions in respect of those decisions.

Sandra Overend (UUP, Mid Ulster)

Does the Minister agree that it is vital for public confidence in the planning system that councillors do not act on party-political grounds? In that regard, will he investigate the actions of Sinn Féin councillors in Belfast, who last week voted en bloc against a planning application for a 30,000 square foot grade-A office space near Central Station?

Paul Givan (DUP, Lagan Valley)

Again, that is a matter for those individual councillors. They have to satisfy themselves that they are taking a decision based on the evidence that they have before them. In respect of the planning committee, I should say that planning powers are not my responsibility. Decisions taken by councils on planning issues are a matter for councils. The Department for Infrastructure has responsibility for broader planning functions. My Department has responsibility for local government, but the planning functions exercised by local government fall more accurately under the remit of the Department for Infrastructure.

Phillip Logan (DUP, North Antrim)

T3. Mr Logan asked the Minister for Communities what support his Department has given to help those who have found themselves in the dreadful situation of being homeless and what action it has taken to reduce homelessness levels in towns such as Ballymena and across Northern Ireland, given that he will be aware that, in 2016, homelessness has caused lives to have been lost on our streets. (AQT 218/16-21)

Paul Givan (DUP, Lagan Valley)

I have engaged on the issue. I have met a number of organisations that are involved in trying to assist those very vulnerable people who are in the position of having found themselves homeless. The Housing Executive has statutory responsibility for responding to the issue. Its strategic approach to dealing with homelessness is the current homelessness strategy, which takes us up to 2017. It has an overall vision of eliminating long-term homelessness and rough sleeping by 2020 and focuses on prevention and early intervention. The Housing Executive is currently developing a new homelessness strategy in partnership with the Department, relevant statutory agencies and voluntary and community sector organisations.

The budget for homelessness, funded by my Department and administered through the Housing Executive, is over £35·5 million. The funding for the provision of homelessness services is £8·25 million, and £27·3 million provides homeless-related support services through the Supporting People programme. The most recently published information on homelessness refers to the three-month period from January to March of this year. During that period, 4,350 households presented to the Northern Ireland Housing Executive as homeless, which was a decrease of almost 300 from the previous quarter. Let me assure the Member that it is a serious issue. There is resource put into tackling it, and it is one that requires our continual attention.

Phillip Logan (DUP, North Antrim)

I thank the Minister for that answer. Does he have any plans to introduce any new programmes for organisations that help homeless people, particularly homeless people with addictions?

Paul Givan (DUP, Lagan Valley)

There are organisations to which support is provided to try to give them that assistance. I was recently in the Stella Maris facility. St Vincent de Paul is involved in that, and it clearly has a passion for trying to reach some of the most vulnerable people, who often have struggled to get the support that they need through the statutory sector. Here is an organisation that is getting support and having very successful results in turning around people's lives. Where there is opportunity to partner with organisations that are involved in that work, I know that the Department and the Housing Executive will look favourably on that.

Gordon Lyons (DUP, East Antrim)

T4. Mr Lyons asked the Minister for Communities for an update on funding for the subregional football stadia, particularly information on when the money will be available for applications. (AQT 219/16-21)

Paul Givan (DUP, Lagan Valley)

On the specific details, consultation on the subregional stadia programme for soccer took place from 30 November last year to 22 February this year. There were 1,279 responses, of which 98 came from named organisations, with the rest from individuals. The responses to the consultation, together with all other relevant information, are helping to shape the programme. The proposals contained in the programme consultation document were based on the agreement made by the Executive in March 2011 to invest £36·2 million, and they reflected the five priorities that were then outlined by the IFA's facilities strategy of 2011. The IFA subsequently updated its strategy in 2012. The consultation was based, however, on what was in place at the time that the Executive endorsed the investment proposals. It was therefore the proposals contained in the 2011 IFA facilities strategy that were consulted on.

Statisticians completed their statistical analysis of the responses to the consultation in April. The subregional stadia team is finalising its consideration and analysis of its report, together with all the other relevant information. That will inform the recommendations that it will make to me, on which I will then take a decision on how we proceed.

Gordon Lyons (DUP, East Antrim)

I thank the Minister for his answer. Indeed, I thank him for visiting Larne Football Club last week to see the facilities at Inver Park and the need that is there.

Many clubs across the country need the money to keep their stadia as they should be and to help them to continue to thrive. Will the Minister ensure that the criteria for the funding are made clear so that those who are applying for money know what they should be saying in their application?

Paul Givan (DUP, Lagan Valley)

I have had the opportunity to visit quite a number of different sporting clubs across a range of sports to have a look at their facilities. The Member had me in Larne with his colleague Mr Hilditch. They felt it necessary to bring the Member of Parliament for the area to that meeting as well; so, the case for Larne Football Club was made very strongly. Ultimately, as with every other club, Larne Football Club will be assessed against the criteria when they are agreed. I will not be able to pick out my preferences: I am sure Lisburn Distillery would like me to be able to do so but unfortunately that is not how it works, and Members know that. There will be criteria.

I hope to finalise the programme and have a call for applications made public in the next couple of months. So, hopefully, before the end of the year, this will be a programme that people can apply to. Based purely on the small number of visits that I have made, I do not think that the pot of money — £36 million — is going to meet the demand that there is. This presents a challenge for the Executive in the types of capital programmes that we would want to develop to give people an opportunity to make further applications for capital funding to support the plans they have for their clubs.

Mervyn Storey (DUP, North Antrim)

T5. Mr Storey asked the Minister for Communities for an update on the Supporting People programme, which makes a valuable contribution to the lives of many individuals, particularly so that they can live independently, with the £74 million distributed annually by the Housing Executive enabling more than 20,000 people to live independent lives. (AQT 220/16-21)

Paul Givan (DUP, Lagan Valley)

The Member will be very familiar, given the role he had, with the impact that that particular funding programme has on very vulnerable people. It provides housing support services that enable vulnerable people to live independently in the community. The programme supports more than 18,500 people and is funded by my Department and administered through the Northern Ireland Housing Executive. I assure the Member that the Supporting People programme remains a priority for the Department. The 2016-17 budget is almost £72·8 million, and that was protected against the 2015-16 levels despite the financial pressures facing the Department when Supporting People budgets in other parts of the United Kingdom were greatly reduced.

Mervyn Storey (DUP, North Antrim)

I thank the Minister for his answer. He will be well aware that independent research commissioned some time ago demonstrated that Supporting People produces £1·90 in net financial benefits for the Executive for every £1 spent on it. Will the Minister give an assurance, given the particular challenges in the budgetary process generally and the various demands on the budget, that the priority that has been given to Supporting People will continue so that we are able to see progress in relation to those who are the biggest beneficiaries of the programme?

Paul Givan (DUP, Lagan Valley)

Let me reassure the Member that this is a priority for me. When engaging with the Finance Minister, I have been making the case that this budget needs to be protected. There is a very clear correlation with the Department of Health, and the Executive have, in the past, chosen to protect the Department of Health. Associated with that was the Supporting People programme. So, I have been making the case for it being protected.

The Member raised with me the pressures that the programme is facing this year, and I have been able to identify £3 million of additional funding for it. That will come from this year's budget in my Department. I have had to look at the budget and assess where the need exists, and I am waiting for proposals from the Northern Ireland Housing Executive on how it plans to use that money. Ultimately, the Housing Executive will have to stand over the administration of the funding, but I have made £3 million available this year to provide support for what is a very important programme.

Oral Answers to Questions — Economy

Paula Bradshaw (Alliance, Belfast South)

1. Ms Bradshaw asked the Minister for the Economy how he plans to work with the Belfast Chamber of Trade and Commerce on the implementation of its 'Belfast Manifesto: Our Vision for the Future'. (AQO 309/16-21)

Simon Hamilton (DUP, Strangford)

I welcome Belfast Chamber of Trade and Commerce's 'Belfast Manifesto' and share its vision to make Belfast a world-class city. The publication of this document is timely, as my Department is taking forward the refocus of the Executive's economic strategy, which will recognise the importance of cities as drivers of economic growth. We will work closely with the Belfast Chamber of Trade and Commerce and other key stakeholders and listen to businesses and their representatives as we seek to develop and implement the strategy. My Department will work closely with all relevant organisations, including the Belfast Chamber of Trade and Commerce, throughout the development and implementation of the Programme for Government and economic strategy to ensure that Belfast develops as a city and Northern Ireland develops as a region.

Paula Bradshaw (Alliance, Belfast South)

Thank you for your answer. What discussions has the Minister had to secure more money as a proportion of the overall Executive budget for skills to continue to address a skills shortage, as referenced in the Belfast Chamber of Trade and Commerce's manifesto?

Simon Hamilton (DUP, Strangford)

Skills is an incredibly important issue for the Northern Ireland economy. One thing that I am increasingly aware of in this job, particularly when we are making job announcements, as we did last week for another 94 jobs based in the city, is that Northern Ireland's skill offering is one of the things that differentiates us and sets us apart from other regions that we are competing with. Interestingly, in the conversation that I had with Metaswitch last week, I found that the differentiator for it locating here rather than somewhere else was the Assured Skills programme that we have in place, which has been incredibly successful in promoting over 5,600 jobs since 2011. That is where we work with foreign direct investors, or indeed existing investors and indigenous firms, to ensure that they get the skills pipeline that they require.

The Member has identified an issue around funding. I am sure that every Minister who comes to the House has issues and pressures in respect of elements of their budget. I know that the skills budget has been under pressure in the last number of years. If we are to maintain our primary position and that ability to attract inward investment to grow our economy, we need to focus much of those precious resources on ensuring that the skills of our workforce are in place and that the skills of those coming through our universities, colleges and schools are up to scratch and fit for the workplace.

It is an incredibly important area. My Department faces a lot of challenges in a whole range of different areas, and I see skills as incredibly important. We attract people to Northern Ireland on the basis of our skills. We know that we are not the biggest economy in the world. We do not have the biggest market. We do not have a lot of natural resources. Our best resource is our people. That is what attracts people to these shores, and I want that to remain the case.

Alex Maskey (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

Will the Minister commit to continuing to work in the time ahead with the Belfast Chamber of Trade and Commerce, which has many laudable objectives and great work behind it, and make sure that the Department's investments are put into the city as a whole, so that communities that heretofore have not really benefited as well as they might will do so and Belfast can become a fairer city as well as a stronger city and economy?

Simon Hamilton (DUP, Strangford)

I am happy to confirm to the Member that I am happy to work with the Belfast Chamber of Trade and Commerce. I have not met it formally in this role, although I had a good relationship with it in the past, and I want to keep that good relationship going in my current post. Whether it is refocusing our economic strategy or developing our economy as a whole, it is incredibly important that I and my Department have good relationships with all the relevant organisations, of which the Belfast Chamber of Trade and Commerce is obviously one, particularly in developing the city.

The Member will know that I have spoken, including at the Committee last week, about how, yes, we need to grow our economy — our economy is heading in the right direction, and we see a lot of good data coming through, particularly around unemployment and economic inactivity — but that growth has to be inclusive growth. The new Programme for Government points to the need to have a strong regionally balanced economy. That is something that I believe in, and I know that the Member is particularly concerned about that in respect of his constituency.

Sometimes the perception is that certain parts of the city or the Province do less well from investment, but, interestingly, in the past five years, there have been 93 start-ups per 10,000 head of the population in the West Belfast constituency. That points to a good entrepreneurial spirit among the people of West Belfast. That compares with an 83 average across the whole of Northern Ireland. It is better than the Northern Ireland average and is the sixth-highest constituency in the UK. That has received support from Invest NI, and helping business start-ups is now in the hands of councils. Getting regionally balanced and inclusive growth is incredibly important to me and to the Executive as a whole, and we will focus on that over the remainder of this term.

Sammy Douglas (DUP, Belfast East)

The previous question was about the Belfast chamber. One of its objectives, in its manifesto, is to turn Belfast into a tech city. Could the Minister outline to the Chamber what progress he thinks Belfast has made in this regard?

Simon Hamilton (DUP, Strangford)

I thank the Member for his question. There is a real developing sense that Belfast is a hub for digital and tech jobs. In fact, the whole of Northern Ireland is developing that relationship. Perhaps Belfast is the anchor for that. You see that in lots of different ways. You see it in the fact that we are attracting, in terms of inward investment, a lot of jobs in that digital and tech space. I mentioned Metaswitch, which brought 94 jobs in the telecommunications sector, some of which are in tech support. Interestingly, a significant number of those jobs are in research and development. It is really good that Northern Ireland is able to attract that type of work. Recently, I announced 17 jobs in Belfast for a company called BDNA, which is a California/Silicon Valley-based firm that is coming to Northern Ireland to have a presence here because it sees this as a good place to invest because of the skills of our workforce.

As well as attracting those sorts of jobs, we are developing a reputation. The Member will know that, sometimes, as the reputation develops, it gathers momentum. For example, this week, the BBC tech week highlighted Belfast as one of the UK's digital tech hubs. It highlights specialisms that we have in software development, and, of course, we are Europe's leading destination for software development. It also highlights our ongoing good work in the area of cybersecurity. Yes, it points to our FDI but also to our excellent local firms like Kainos, which are putting us on the world map. That follows on from a report by Tech City UK, a 'Tech Nation' report for 2016, which, again, highlights Northern Ireland as a growing digital cluster and talks about our tech industries making the highest contribution to GVA in the local economy in the whole of the UK with the exception of London and the south-east.

Our excellent talent, our infrastructure, our low overheads and government support are helping to put Belfast and the whole of Northern Ireland on the international map as a tech hub. I think that something really special is happening, and we need to make the most of that.

Robin Newton (Speaker, Belfast East)

I remind the Minister of the two-minute rule.

Alex Attwood (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast West)

Could I press the Minister? As you know, there are many voices in Belfast, in the chamber of commerce and in the council, pressing for the devolution of regeneration powers. That idea was derailed in the last mandate. That is not within your gift, but, as part of the Programme for Government, are you committed to and will you argue with the Minister for Communities and your Executive colleagues for the devolution of regeneration powers to councils?

Simon Hamilton (DUP, Strangford)

The Minister for Communities was just in the House. The Member was not in the House for his questions. He might have been in for an earlier part of it. I suggest to the Member that it is a question better directed to that Minister. I think that regeneration powers should be devolved to councils, but it obviously needs to be done in a way that enables them to take those powers on and make the most of them. We want our cities and our council areas to grow, develop and move forward, and regeneration powers are at the heart of being able to do that, but I will leave it to the Minister for Communities to decide the right time to do that. I am sure that he will work very closely with his colleagues in local government to ensure that that can happen in a timely fashion.

Robin Newton (Speaker, Belfast East)

Before I call Mr Storey for his question, I inform the House that question 3 has been withdrawn.

Mervyn Storey (DUP, North Antrim)

2. Mr Storey asked the Minister for the Economy for his assessment of the impact the Dark Hedges have had on tourism. (AQO 310/16-21)

Simon Hamilton (DUP, Strangford)

I fully recognise the importance of the Dark Hedges as a tourist destination. They are a tremendous tourism asset, not just for the local area but for Northern Ireland as a whole.

When the Dark Hedges were featured at the start of season 2 of 'Game of Thrones', they immediately captured the imagination of viewers. There was an instant impact at the Dark Hedges, with a huge increase in the volume of visitors from all over the world. Subsequently, they have become an iconic image not just of the series but of Northern Ireland.

'Game of Thrones' has just broken the record for the highest number of Emmy awards won by any fictional series. It is, quite simply, the biggest TV show in the world. It is broadcast in 199 territories, which offers a huge opportunity for Northern Ireland to position itself internationally and promote our destination to a global audience. With at least two more seasons to be filmed, the audience will continue to grow, as will the demand to visit film locations in Northern Ireland.

The show has been a catalyst for business growth, with Northern Ireland Screen estimating the economic value of 'Game of Thrones' production to Northern Ireland as £148 million to date. Tourism NI is building on that success and has been working closely with the industry to develop new and innovative 'Game of Thrones' visitor experiences and marketing campaigns. Most recently, the Dark Hedges featured prominently in Tourism NI's collaborative marketing campaign with Tourism Ireland celebrating season 6 of 'Game of Thrones'. The videos associated with that campaign resulted in over 1·2 million social media engagements.

Mervyn Storey (DUP, North Antrim)

I thank the Minister for his answer. I declare an interest as the chair of the Dark Hedges Preservation Trust. Given the strategic place that it has in tourism in the north Antrim area, will the Minister welcome the fact that the Causeway Coast and Glens Borough Council has taken a very proactive role? I thank the Minister for his help in ensuring that Tourism NI was present at a recent meeting with the council. That will allow us to build on the success and deal with the challenges. The Minister will be aware that there are particular issues in relation to preserving the site, ensuring that locals have adequate and appropriate access, and having a system in place that manages the many hundreds, indeed thousands, of people who come to the Dark Hedges on a very regular basis.

Simon Hamilton (DUP, Strangford)

I thank the Member for his question. I also want to thank him and the other members of the trust for their ongoing work in seeking to preserve the beauty that is the Dark Hedges. I visited them for the first time this summer, and they are absolutely spectacular. You can see why they are such an attraction and why the show wanted to use them, but they are clearly under pressure. I am aware that, by visiting them, I was also putting them under pressure. There were a huge number of people there that day.

A lot of work has been done to try to preserve the beauty of the Dark Hedges, and the preservation trust has been to the fore in that respect. If we are to use them to attract people to Northern Ireland, we will have to preserve them for future generations. I know that there have been tree preservation orders in place since 2004, although there have still been difficulties in preserving trees. It is interesting that we were able to use the bad news of some of the trees falling for good by creating the doors that have been located around different parts of Northern Ireland and have themselves become a bit of a tourist attraction.

It is not my area of responsibility, but I know that Transport NI is looking at a number of traffic management proposals that I think will be incredibly important. It is my intention for Tourism NI and Tourism Ireland to continue to promote the Dark Hedges through 'Game of Thrones' and use it to our advantage. Continuing to build on what we did with season 6, we now have apps in place that identify the Dark Hedges and other filming locations that are publicly accessible. As the Member knows, NI Screen has been working with the council to put interpretative panels in place, and the Dark Hedges feature in all Tourism Northern Ireland's marketing information about the Causeway coastal route. If we are to continue to do that, we will have to ensure that they are preserved: that they are still accessible, but preserved and there for future generations to enjoy.

Robin Newton (Speaker, Belfast East)

The Minister is allowed up to two minutes. He does not necessarily have to take the two minutes.

[Laughter.]

Robin Swann (UUP, North Antrim)

As the Minister indicated, the Dark Hedges have been put on the world map because of 'Game of Thrones'. I would not necessarily have taken Mr Storey as a fan.

[Laughter.]

Given that there are only two series left, is the Minister confident that the film and creative industries are sustainable enough to outlive the series, so that the production companies will keep coming back to locations in north Antrim, Dalriada or west Antrim?

Simon Hamilton (DUP, Strangford)

That is the local press statement drafted for this week. I think we can focus, as did Mr Storey in his question, on promoting the Dark Hedges in the short term. We are very fortunate to have secured the sixth series. There are at least two more, and who knows what the future holds with 'Game of Thrones'? Northern Ireland has benefited from it through the promotion of certain places, whether it is the Dark Hedges, Castle Ward or wherever it might be. A lot of areas have reaped the benefit. I was in Ballintoy harbour, which is in the Member's constituency, over the summer. Again, that is a hidden gem in Northern Ireland. It was probably not visited that much in advance of the series, but now huge numbers go there. I think there are about 20 'Game of Thrones' tour experiences in Northern Ireland, and they employ people and provide a service for visitors.

Perhaps the best and most important legacy is that for our film, television and creative industries in Northern Ireland. We have studios in the Titanic area that are full, we have new studios developing on the other side of the lough in Giant's Park and there are studios in Banbridge. There are opportunities for Northern Ireland to be used for filming locations for many years to come. Over the weekend, I was looking at statistics from the National Association of Theatre Owners in the States that show the huge increase in the number of films being made and released in the United States alone. Whenever you look at the big studios in London that are full and see that studios are looking for capacity to make films, you see that Northern Ireland is very well positioned for the future thanks to the expertise we have developed through filming 'Game of Thrones' in Northern Ireland.

Philip McGuigan

I thank the Minister for his answers thus far and for his praise of Causeway Coast and Glens Borough Council, of which I was until recently a member. The Minister placed importance on the Dark Hedges as an environmental and tourist attraction. How does he envisage their long-term management, given the cross-cutting nature of his Department, other Departments, the local heritage trust, tree preservation bodies and the council? Who does he envisage taking the lead in their future management?

Simon Hamilton (DUP, Strangford)

I will be honest: we have yet to give specific thought to how that might be done. Obviously, there are a lot of actors involved — excuse the pun — including the preservation trust, the council, Tourism NI and local stakeholders. That is part of the conversation Mr Storey alluded to, which has already started to take place on the ground about the Dark Hedges.

Our first priority has to be preserving the Dark Hedges. There is a temptation, to be completely honest, perhaps, on our side — on the tourism side of things — just to market this and not necessarily to think about the environmental impact. That is incredibly important to me. As I said before, there is nothing to market if they are not there. We have to look after them first and foremost. That is where we would look to the preservation trust to lead on that and show us the best way forward in preserving the asset as an asset. From a tourism perspective we are then very happy to step in.

There is much more we can do at the Dark Hedges. I know that the hotel and the resort beside them are developing further and see huge opportunities; in fact, I think they are rebranding to call themselves the Dark Hedges resort. There are huge opportunities, and we will work very closely with them to do that. I look to colleagues in the Environment Agency and Transport NI to ensure that we can preserve the asset first and foremost. Then it is very much over to us in combination with the council and the preservation trust to ensure that the asset is marketed in a way that not only benefits everybody but is sympathetic.