Northern Ireland Assembly, 10 October 2016

436 contributions from 65 members. The official report.

Matter of the Day

Robin Newton (Speaker, Belfast East)

Mr Alex Attwood has been given leave to make a statement on the humanitarian crisis in eastern Aleppo, which fulfils the criteria set out in Standing Order 24. If Members wish to be called, they should rise in their places and continue to do so. Each Member will have up to three minutes to speak on the subject. I remind Members that I will not take points of order on this or any other matter until the item of business has been completed.

Alex Attwood (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast West)

I thank you, Mr Speaker, for permitting this matter to be discussed. Whilst it is the case that foreign affairs are not a devolved matter, issues in other places around the world are very much a concern of people in the Chamber, in Northern Ireland and on the island. We know how important it was in our own history that the spotlight was kept on our experience, and it is very important to keep the spotlight on the experience in other places in conflict and where there is humanitarian crisis.

Aleppo was, historically, a place of great commerce and culture. Part of the city was on the UNESCO world heritage list. It is a city with a history going back 9,000 years. Whilst the situation in the city is complex, especially in eastern Aleppo, where no one group is in charge and where the geopolitics are more and more demanding, some things are, nonetheless, straightforward and clear. Whatever the political situation, the humanitarian situation is clear for us all to see. Over the last two weeks, eastern Aleppo has experienced its heaviest bombardment in the last five and a half years of the Syrian war. We now have a situation in which a population of 275,000 in that part of the city has only 30 to 35 doctors, 20 or so ambulances, six hospitals, with two hospitals having been destroyed in recent weeks.

Three doctors and two nurses have been killed. Doctors and hospitals are required to recycle syringes, needles and bandages. Thirty-five thousand people — over 10% of the population — have been internally displaced. Last week, the UN special envoy to the area said in crystal clear words that we now had a situation where we had to divert this from being another Srebrenica or another Rwanda and that by Christmas eastern Aleppo could be destroyed. We are witnessing the slow death of its people. As one citizen put it, and I will conclude with these words:

"This is a city that will die. The entire world is watching a city dying. Aleppo is the third oldest city in the world. It's 9000 years old. It has seen earthquakes and disasters, but now, in the 21st century, the city is being slaughtered and the entire world is watching."

Gordon Lyons (DUP, East Antrim)

I thank the Member for West Belfast for bringing this Matter of the Day this afternoon. Sadly, it is a matter not just for this day; it is a matter of gravest concern for hundreds and hundreds of days, as tens of thousands of people have lost their lives as a result of the Syrian and Russian bombing of the city of Aleppo. The misery being endured by the remaining 275,000 people in Aleppo is unimaginable, and 100,000 children are at the forefront of that misery. We need to stop and think about that: 100,000 children are suffering in this way. That is horrific, and we cannot help but be moved with compassion for those who are suffering.

The UN Secretary General, Ban Ki-moon, has said that what is happening in Aleppo is worse than "a slaughterhouse". Staffan de Mistura, the UN envoy in Syria, has said that, at the current rate of bombardment, the city will be completely destroyed by the end of this year. That is why it was very sad to see the UN resolutions last week, which called on the bombardment to stop, vetoed. That is shameful, and it only prolongs the suffering of the people there.

The pain and suffering in Aleppo are unquantifiable. However, there are medical professionals who are trying to help the wounded and dying and bring some comfort and relief. They are working in some of the most difficult and dangerous circumstances imaginable, and they should be the focus of aid efforts and relief, which is itself work that is even being hindered.

I thank Mr Attwood for bringing this matter to the Assembly. Although we are, obviously, very limited in what we can do in this place, it is right that our voices are heard, that we speak against this injustice and that we pray for the people of Aleppo and for peace there.

Caitriona Ruane (Deputy Speaker, South Down)

Ba mhaith liom buíochas a ghabháil le Alex Attwood. I thank Alex Attwood for bringing this Matter of the Day to the Assembly.

We have heard and all know that what is happening in Syria is an absolute humanitarian disaster. Last week alone, there were 376 people killed, and half of them were children. We had 1,266 injured, hospitals were destroyed and medical personnel were killed. Civilians are besieged; they are under full military encirclement and are without humanitarian supplies or the freedom to leave many different areas. We are talking about Aleppo today and the 275,000 people, but equally, according to the United Nations, there are over 861,000 people in other parts of Syria in similar situations. The UN special envoy for Syria, Staffan de Mistura, has said that the suspension of bilateral discussions between the two chairs, the United States and Russia, on a cessation of hostilities was a serious setback.

If we can learn anything about our peace process here in Ireland — I am not for one minute equating the two conflicts; every conflict is different — it is that there should be inclusive dialogue; it is that there should be a cessation of hostilities by all of the combatants. All sides need to bear responsibility for their actions. We need the hostilities to be brought to an immediate end, and all sides need to recognise a new ceasefire.

Urgent humanitarian aid needs to get to the people who are suffering in this terrible, terrible war. I pay tribute to the international aid workers, who are trying to do everything they can to get badly needed supplies into the worst-hit areas and save lives. We need urgent action now, and, while the Assembly does not have responsibility for international affairs, we have responsibility as international citizens to help end the conflict. We also have refugees who have come to all parts of Ireland, and we can say to them, "Tá fáilte romhaibh, you are very welcome in our country, and we will do everything that we can to help you. We are very sorry about what is happening to your loved ones in your country." The biggest action that we can take is to apply international pressure by supporting the efforts of the UN, and we can support the people who have come to our shores looking for solidarity and support.

Doug Beattie (UUP, Upper Bann)

I thank Mr Attwood for bringing this to the Assembly. I think we have all seen the horrific pictures that are coming out of Aleppo. We have seen the injured, and we have seen the tragedy of the children who are suffering in a city that has been pounded to ruins and is now being pounded into dust. This is more than a tragedy; it is a stain on the international community for taking no action at all in the last four years-plus. What we have in Aleppo is the Al-Nusra Front, which is fighting against the Free Syrian Army, which is, in turn, fighting against Assad's forces, which are underpinned by the Russians. There is absolutely no doubt that we are seeing a proxy war in Aleppo between the United States and the Russians and between Iran and Saudi Arabia, and the United Nations is absolutely impotent in trying to bring a cessation to this absolute catastrophe, this near genocide.

In the last few hours, the French have brought forward a motion for a permanent ceasefire, and, yet again, the Russians have vetoed it, which tells you that the system of the five permanent members in the UN Security Council does not work. Therefore, I call on the United Nations to take direct action to put humanitarian corridors into Aleppo to allow the wounded to be brought out, the non-combatants to be brought out and the children to be brought out. Then, the combatants can kill themselves all the more. What you find in any conflict — I am testimony to this — is that the people who suffer most are the innocent people: the men, women and children who live in what must be a hellish place. Again, I thank Mr Attwood for bringing this forward.

Stephen Farry (Alliance, North Down)

I also thank Mr Attwood for bringing this important Matter of the Day to the Assembly. At the outset, I also make reference to the humanitarian situation in Haiti due to Hurricane Matthew and recognise the hundreds of people who have lost their life there and the thousands who are now homeless.

In some respects, we have a man-made hurricane affecting the people of Aleppo. Given our history and the fact that this year we mark the 100th anniversary of a number of major battles in the First World War, such as the Somme and Verdun, we know the consequences when a long-term stalemate builds up.

The difference between those battles and the situation today is that so many civilians are bearing the brunt of the conflict; they are suffering daily, losing their lives, their homes, their livelihoods and their future.

Aleppo is one of the oldest inhabited settlements in the world, and what is happening there is a tragedy in so many respects. It also reflects the much wider situation in Syria. As an Assembly, it is important that we speak out on what is happening beyond our borders. What is happening today in Syria is, I think, the defining conflict of our age. We should be defined by how we, as the international community, respond to that situation. It is important that we see humanitarian assistance and that we join in recognising the aid workers who risk their lives to bring assistance, and in particular the role played by the white helmets in trying to save and rescue lives.

We also have to recognise that it is not just about humanitarian aid and that we have wider responsibilities as an international community. It is not good enough to see the great powers intervening on different sides of the conflict and it becoming a kind of proxy war. Russia in particular stands out for international condemnation for its activities, namely the military support that it provides to the regime and its bolstering and protecting of Bashar al-Assad. Frankly, if that support were withdrawn there may be some hope of a solution.

I fear that, at present, we are seeing a rolling stalemate centred around the city of Aleppo, and that is likely to continue unless we see a change in tack from the international community. What is needed is a genuinely united front and a recognition that the international community has a formal responsibility to protect, and to recognise that what happens within national borders is something that concerns us all.

Gerry Carroll (People Before Profit Alliance, Belfast West)

I thank Mr Atwood for bringing the matter for discussion. The scenes in Aleppo over the last few weeks have been harrowing: kids being pulled from rubble, nobody knowing if they are alive or dead, 275,000 people cut off from water, food and medicine, and a hospital blown to bits. It is a crisis and a disaster, but one of political making. As the death toll rises day by day, we must remember that it is not just ISIS and Assad who are killing civilians, but Russia. Russia's air forces are carpet-bombing Aleppo; Western forces, so-called allies, and the US are also bombing civilians.

In 2011, the Arab Spring, an uprising from below across the Middle East for democracy and social justice, began in Tunisia, spread to Egypt and across the Middle East. People in Syria also stood up for freedom and social justice, and Bashar al-Assad, who was, no doubt, wined and dined in Westminster, met the protesters with severe repression and brutality on a huge scale. Protesters were gunned down.

At the minute, the war hawks are swarming around Aleppo and Syria. If you live in Aleppo, Damascus or anywhere else in Syria, it does not really matter if the bombs being dropped were made in Washington, in Moscow or in London because the death, devastation and destruction will be seen for miles around, and the result will be the same. The imperial powers have brought nothing but misery to the people of the Middle East, Syria and Iraq. We should say, "Hands off Syria", and they should cease to engage in this terrorism from the sky.

Haiti has been mentioned. We should also mention what is happening in the Yemen, where, in the last few days, 140 people were killed at a funeral. Saudi Arabia has been engaging in absolute brutality on the people of the Yemen. We have to do two things: we have to stand resolutely against the destruction and the bombs being dropped on the Middle East and say, "Not in our name". We also have to recognise the destruction that is taking place in Syria and how millions of innocent people are being turned into refugees.

Robin Newton (Speaker, Belfast East)

I ask the Member to conclude his remarks.

Gerry Carroll (People Before Profit Alliance, Belfast West)

We have to say no to war, no to racism, and we should open up borders and let the refugees in.

Jim Allister (Traditional Unionist Voice, North Antrim)

I do not suppose that anyone in the House is foolish enough to think that the contributions in this debate are going to change very much, but that does not mean that we should not speak up when we see unfolding before us unspeakable horror in different parts of the world. When we see on our television screens what are only snapshots of the terror and horror in Aleppo, you could not be human and not be moved by the horrendous circumstances prevailing. A ceasefire was negotiated and then breached by a grotesque act of war by the Russians in the bombing of, of all things, a food convoy of humanitarian aid. That really underscores the depths of degradation to which that conflict has gone.

Western interventions in the Middle East, where many monsters and tyrants have been in charge, do not have a very good track record, but the situation created in Syria is one, as Mr Beattie said, that is crying out for effective international action. He is right: the UN is being exposed only for its impotence in this situation because, of course, of the Russian veto. If the United Nations is an organisation worth having, this is a moment when it needs to provide the humanitarian lead and the delivery to safety of the ultimate innocents: the children of Aleppo. What sort of human beings are we if the United Nations organisations, which are supposed to protect humanitarian interests in the world, cannot and will not take even that most basic of steps?

Today we join in the condemnation. Although we recognise the limitations of what we say, it is still right that we utterly condemn the carpet-bombing by the Russians and others of Aleppo and think of and pray for the innocents of that city.

Eamonn McCann (People Before Profit Alliance, Foyle)

There has been widespread comment on the supposed fact that there is a big disparity between the reaction of anti-war activists in the West, including in this country and across the water, to the Russian slaughter of people in Aleppo on the one hand and various atrocities perpetrated by the West, particularly by the United States, on the other. "Where are the protesters outside the Russian embassy?", it is asked. In the opinion of People Before Profit, that is a very good question. The suggestion made on the left is that there is no moral balance between the West and the Soviet Union. That is simply the mirror image of those — some are represented in the House — who are quite happy to protest against Russia; they stand up and denounce the barbarism of Russian bombing, but the same people have never protested against the genocidal slaughter of the Palestinian people by the Israelis using American- and British-supplied arms.

When we look at what is happening in the Middle East today in Syria, we see, of course, that the Russian forces are adopting the same tactics and attitudes as they adopted in relation to Chechnya some years ago.

It is because they got away with the slaughter of the Chechen people that they think they can get away with it in Aleppo and other parts of the world. It is not an accident that Chechnya, per head of population, has supplied more fighters to Islamic State than any other country in the world. That was a direct result of the Soviet Union's and then Russia's suppression of the Chechen people.

What we see now in the Middle East is the use of Western arms, supplied mainly by the United States but also by the United Kingdom to Saudi Arabia to inflict horrendous slaughter. Some 4,000 civilians have been killed in Yemen, a substantial majority of them killed with Western arms supplied by companies such as BAE, Raytheon and the rest of them without any protest. I and People Before Profit call for the most vigorous protests outside Russian embassies and elsewhere against what is happening in Aleppo. We also call for a stepping-up of protests against the supply of arms to the sectarian, extremist state dictatorship of Saudi Arabia, which, incidentally, supplied 15 of the 19 September 11 bombers yet is still supplied with billions of pounds of lethal machinery to slaughter people in the Middle East.

Robin Newton (Speaker, Belfast East)

I ask the Member to conclude his remarks.

Eamonn McCann (People Before Profit Alliance, Foyle)

That disparity must end.

I will finish with this sentence, Mr Speaker. In People Before Profit, we believe that the Soviet Union was a state capitalist country, and we protested against the suppression in Czechoslovakia and so on and so forth —

Robin Newton (Speaker, Belfast East)

Mr McCann, your time is up.

Eamonn McCann (People Before Profit Alliance, Foyle)

Today, we should have simultaneous demonstrations against the Russians and the Americans.

Assembly Business

Robin Newton (Speaker, Belfast East)

Ms Paula Bradley has sought leave to present a public petition in accordance with Standing Order 22. The Member will have up to three minutes to speak.

Paula Bradley (DUP, Belfast North)

I welcome the opportunity to bring the petition to the House today.

General practice is one of the bedrocks of every community in Northern Ireland and the first point of contact for 90% of health and social care-related needs. However, general practice is now in crisis owing to an excessive workload, a diminishing workforce and inadequate funding. The petition being submitted today has been signed by over 30,000 patients from across Northern Ireland and calls on the Minister of Health to ensure the survival of general practice throughout Northern Ireland by investing 10% of the Northern Ireland healthcare budget in a safe, sustainable GP service for patients and funding for general practice, which is significantly reduced despite the growing demand.

Our population is increasing, with a greater proportion of people living longer and patients with more complex and lifelong conditions. Proper investment needs to be made if general practice is to survive. At present, we do not have enough GPs to service the population in Northern Ireland. The petition calls on the Minister to increase training numbers immediately to 111. The increase from 65 to 85 training places this year is very welcome but does not go far enough to meet the demand.

A quarter of Northern Ireland GPs are over 55 and are due to retire in the very near future, with not enough coming through to replace them. Inevitably, we already see practices collapsing. During the summer, we saw practices close not only in our rural communities — there are other reasons for that, as we cannot get GPs to go out as far as rural communities — but in our urban communities. Only in the summer, we saw a large practice in Bangor close as a result of having a lack of GPs. If that is allowed to continue, it will put pressure on surrounding practices and create the real threat that many people will be left without access to a GP.

The petition also calls for reduced bureaucracy and an improved IT system, because GPs want to spend as much time as possible caring and providing for their patients.

The petition comes after the release of BMA Northern Ireland's report on the crisis in primary care, which starkly illustrates the pressures on GPs. The report revealed that 74% of practices here say that they are struggling and nearly 10% are barely coping. Action needs to be taken immediately to address the issues.

Ms P Bradley moved forward and laid the petition on the Table.

Robin Newton (Speaker, Belfast East)

I will forward a copy of the petition to the Minister of Health and the Health Committee.

Executive Committee Business

Paul Givan (DUP, Lagan Valley)

I beg to move

That this Assembly endorses the principle of the extension to Northern Ireland of the Cultural Property (Armed Conflicts) Bill.

As Members are aware from the memorandum that was laid in the Assembly on 5 September, I seek the Assembly’s approval for a legislative consent motion (LCM) to enable Northern Ireland to be included in the UK Cultural Property (Armed Conflicts) Bill. The Bill is being proposed by the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport and was introduced in Westminster on 19 May. It is expected to complete its passage in early 2017, although that is subject to change.

The Bill is designed to enable the UK to ratify the 1954 Hague Convention for the Protection of Cultural Property in the Event of Armed Conflict and its related protocols. The convention provides for a system of general and special protection of cultural property in situations of international and non-international armed conflict. Under the convention, cultural property designated for protection bears a white and royal blue shield symbol, which carries the same protective status as the red cross and red crescent. Securing a legislative consent motion for the Cultural Property Bill will permit the Westminster Government to confer a power on the local Minister with responsibility for culture and the historic environment in Northern Ireland — currently, me — to grant permission for the use of the protective emblem here. It will also enable me as Minister to designate individuals who are entitled to use the emblem as a means of identification in Northern Ireland.

Cultural property that may be protected is that deemed to be of great importance to cultural heritage generally. In Northern Ireland, it is likely to include historic monuments in state care, high-grade listed buildings, archives, art and other exhibits under the care of, amongst others, National Museums, the Public Record Office of Northern Ireland and the historic environment division. It can also include works of art, archaeological sites, scientific collections and other significant materials. There is, however, no requirement that the emblem be displayed on all structures associated with the convention. It will be mandatory only in regard to structures given enhanced protection, and those are expected to be very few across the UK.

Criteria for the use of the emblem and the way the scheme operates are intended to be consistent across the United Kingdom. The Department for Culture, Media and Sport (DCMS) has started to work through the details of what the exact policy and criteria will be for using the emblem on cultural property, as well as how it will come into operation. DCMS has confirmed that all the devolved Administrations and their relevant agencies and bodies will be fully involved in the development of the policy and related criteria, setting out exactly when the emblem should be used.

As Minister, I am strongly supportive of the scheme. I believe that it will help to provide additional protection for Northern Ireland’s important and highly valued cultural and heritage assets, both now and into the future. I also welcome the wide definition of "cultural property" that forms part of the Hague convention and is recognised in the Bill.

If the Assembly does not approve the legislative consent motion, the Bill will proceed, and the Minister for Culture, Media and Sport in Westminster will retain all powers in relation to the use of the cultural emblem in Northern Ireland. Agreeing to approve the legislative consent motion will ensure that local interests are represented in the operation of the Cultural Property Bill. On that basis, I ask Members to support the proposal.

Colum Eastwood (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

I thank the Minister for moving the motion. Subsequent to the end of the Second World War and the massive destruction across Europe that resulted, the Convention for the Protection of Cultural Property in the Event of Armed Conflict was adopted at The Hague in May 1954.

The aim of the convention was to seek to afford protection to immovable and movable cultural heritage. For example, architectural monuments, works of art, books, manuscripts and archaeological sites etc. The convention comprises two protocols. The first protocol, agreed in 1954, details the undertakings for the protection of cultural property in territory occupied during an armed conflict. The second protocol essentially enhances the protection afforded to cultural heritage, establishes offences for violation of the protocol and provides clarification on obligations to the convention.

The British Government signed the convention in 1954, but despite committing to ratify it, successive British Governments have failed to do so. The Committee for Communities welcomes the Cultural Property (Armed Conflicts) Bill, which is designed to enable the UK to ratify the 1954 Hague Convention for the Protection of Cultural Property in the Event of Armed Conflict and accede to its two protocols. The Committee believes the Bill will be a positive development towards the protection of our cultural heritage. The impact of armed conflict on cultural property can be devastating, and the Committee recognises that the marking of cultural property with the distinctive emblem of the convention may afford some protection to these properties. The Committee therefore welcomes the British Government's decision to ratify the convention through the Bill.

To that extent, the Committee also welcomes the introduction of offences designed to protect cultural property in the event of an armed conflict, as well as those to deter misuse of the blue shield. The Committee notes that the wide definition of cultural property under article 1 of the convention is in the Westminster Bill. The Committee, having sought clarification from the Department, is satisfied with the rationale for using an LCM rather than an Assembly Bill. As well as cultural matters, the Westminster Bill contains provisions that mainly concern the import and export of cultural property to and from the UK. While those apply to Northern Ireland, they are not devolved matters under the Northern Ireland Act 1998 and hence are outside the legislative competence of the Assembly. The Committee is content that it would not be possible, therefore, to bring forward the provisions by means of an Assembly Bill.

The Committee notes that the inclusion of Northern Ireland in the Bill will ensure consistency and coherence across the UK, noting that Wales and Scotland have agreed the same approach. Should the Assembly not pass the LCM, the Bill would need to be amended to allow the British Minister to grant permission and make designations for the use of the emblem in Northern Ireland. The Committee agrees it is preferable that the Bill will confer powers for the Department for Communities here on the use of the emblem in Northern Ireland, and the local Minister will be able to be in a position to influence the operation of the legislation as it relates to the North of Ireland.

The Committee is satisfied that the original consultation undertaken by the Department for Culture, Media and Sport in 2008 is still relevant and applicable and is content with the assessment that the financial impact is expected to be minimal. The Committee is also satisfied with the Department for Communities's assessment that the extension to Northern Ireland of the relevant provisions in the Bill has no implications for equality of opportunity, nor will it have an impact on the cultural capital of Northern Ireland.

Crucially, the Committee notes that the British Government will need to develop criteria to identify cultural property within the meaning of article 1 of the convention. That is:

"movable or immovable property of great importance to the cultural heritage of every people".

The Department for Culture, Media and Sport has confirmed that all devolved Administrations will be fully involved in the development of criteria, and the Committee for Communities asks that the Minister keep it apprised of progress in that regard.

The Committee recommends that the Assembly endorse the principle of the extension to Northern Ireland of the Cultural Property Bill.

Andy Allen (UUP, Belfast East)

In the early 1990s, the Balkan wars in the former Yugoslavia saw events such as the destruction of the iconic Mostar bridge and the shelling of the historic old buildings of Dubrovnik. Those are a terrible reminder that the destruction of cultural heritage is a tactic of war that has not been consigned to history. The 1954 Hague Convention for the Protection of Cultural Property in the Event of Armed Conflict was the result, and, as of March 2016, it has been ratified by 127 states.

As somebody who served in the British armed forces and proudly so, I know only too well the duty of care, the professionalism and the training given to members of the armed forces to ensure that a duty of care is afforded to cultural property, and we do all we can to ensure they are not caught up in conflicts or destroyed. However, events throughout history tell us and prove that there are others who do not take such an approach. That is why we support this LCM to afford cultural protection to monuments, art and other items of cultural significance throughout Northern Ireland.

Christopher Stalford (DUP, Belfast South)

The Committee Chairman has given a very fair assessment of the position that the Committee has adopted. Earlier today, we talked about Syria. In Palmyra, in Syria, we have all seen a dreadful example of what can happen when significant cultural and architectural property is not afforded protection. Ruins of an ancient civilisation that had survived thousands of years and inspired awe and admiration among all who visited them, were destroyed in seconds by terrorists armed with explosives.

It is in that regard that the failure of successive Governments to implement the 1954 Hague convention should be addressed. I am glad that the Department for Culture, Media and Sport has recognised the need for the preservation of our heritage. Whilst I agree with the Minister that there can only be certain circumstances in which the blue and white shield symbol can be deployed, I hope that, in time, when the Bill is passed and the system is rolled out, the possession of the blue and white shield on a facility will become a badge of honour. It says that this is something that the Government recognise as being significant and worthy of preservation.

Ultimately, of course, it is to be hoped that it is highly unlikely that Northern Ireland will ever again be affected by circumstances where our monuments, art and archives etc would be in a position to be threatened. I welcome the fact that, more than 60 years after the Hague convention, the Government at Westminster and our own Government are taking action to ensure its effective implementation. I support the legislative consent motion.

Carál Ní Chuilín (Sinn Féin, Belfast North)

I, too, support this LCM. I declare an interest as one of the four or maybe five Ministers who tried to bring this forward. Many accusations are levelled at this place about things moving slowly, but we have waited since 1954, so this one was not on our watch, in fairness. There were attempts from 2007 through to 2008 to have the convention ratified. That is really important.

To be fair, the Chair summed up exactly what was discussed in Committee and laid out very clearly our understanding and acknowledgement of the need for this LCM to be brought forward. As has been mentioned, the definition of cultural property in article 1 is very wide, but I am delighted that the clarification that we sought has been granted and that all devolved Administrations and institutions will be responsible for its designation.

As the Minister said in his opening remarks, the Bill is passing through Westminster, and if any changes are made, I would anticipate that they will be brought to us. I would also expect — it is not in the Bill in any great detail, although the inference is there — that when cultural property is seized, it is returned. There have been instances where that has happened in the past. Indeed, it has also been a very important part of many conflict resolution processes to have property brought forward and granted.

The designation is really important, as is the symbol. It gives it equal status, as was mentioned previously, with the Red Cross and the Red Crescent. I believe that, as it goes through scrutiny, as we anticipate, in this mandate and mandates ahead, that will be brought to the attention of the Department for Communities. We support the LCM.

Naomi Long (Alliance, Belfast East)

On behalf of the Alliance Party, I welcome the opportunity to speak about the legislative consent motion.

As the Chair set out, the Committee welcomes the British Government's ratification of the 1954 Hague convention earlier this year and supports a legislative consent motion as being the most sensible way for us in Northern Ireland to deal with the matter and to allow some of those powers to be devolved to the Assembly so that our cultural heritage and property can be protected.

The Hague convention is broken into two protocols, the first emphasising the protection of cultural property in the territory occupied during an armed conflict; and the second strengthening the first by establishing offences for violations of the first protocol and clarifying obligations.

Cultural property is a very wide-ranging term. However, the Bill is not controversial in its aims or definitions of cultural items. It seeks to protect "immovable" and "movable" items that possess significant cultural heritage to an area and outlines that removing such items will be an offence. That can include architectural monuments, works of art, books, manuscripts and also the damage committed to archaeological sites, all of which can add value to a region and enrich it.

In a globalised world that is experiencing significant civil unrest and cultural violence, it is important that we are strong against the theft of cultural property from other nations. As others have reflected, having talked about Aleppo and Syria today, we also think of Palmyra and the destruction of the relics of an ancient civilisation that have been there for many thousands of years. They were destroyed in the most wanton display of cultural destruction that we have seen in some considerable time.

It is good that, whilst we in the Chamber will be largely powerless in preventing such actions during a war, the Bill is a positive step in reducing the potential for items pillaged from places such as Palmyra being sold on the black market for profit. That is hugely important. It is also good in that it allows our local cultural heritage to be protected and recognised. Whilst we hope that Northern Ireland will never become a war zone under the Hague convention, it is a sensible precaution to identify those matters that are of cultural significance, not just for us regionally but internationally, and give them due protection, and not just from war, by giving them status on an international footing. The opportunity to do that is hugely important.

We are happy to support the Bill as a way of protecting artefacts and monuments that have special importance in the preservation of cultures, locally and globally. We live in an increasingly interconnected and globalised world, and, by supporting the Bill, we can support and develop a global community of different cultures for all people at a time when there is increasing instability around the world.

Paul Givan (DUP, Lagan Valley)

I thank the Chairman of the Committee for Communities, its members and Members for their contributions this afternoon. A couple of points were raised. One was whether I would continue to keep the Committee apprised of developments, and I am happy to do that. The exact criteria for how this will apply in Northern Ireland are being developed by the DCMS. My Department has a role in that, and I am happy to keep Members informed as developments progress.

Question put and agreed to. Resolved:

That this Assembly endorses the principle of the extension to Northern Ireland of the Cultural Property (Armed Conflicts) Bill.

Private Members' Business

Robin Newton (Speaker, Belfast East)

The Business Committee has agreed to allow up to one hour and 30 minutes for the debate. An amendment has been selected and published on the Marshalled List. The amendment has been tabled by those who tabled the motion. The motion and the amendment will be proposed together and wound up on together, with 10 minutes to propose and 10 minutes to make a winding-up speech.

Andy Allen (UUP, Belfast East)

I beg to move

That this Assembly notes the likelihood that the Office for National Statistics will reclassify Northern Ireland’s 22 housing associations from independent social businesses to public bodies; that this may limit their ability to access private finance to build new homes; that the £1 billion of private debt already on their books could be added to the Executive’s balance sheet, taking the Executive’s total borrowing to levels that would reduce drastically their ability to borrow money for other initiatives across the Executive Departments; and calls on the Minister for Communities to prepare to bring forward urgent legislation to reverse the reclassification of Northern Ireland housing associations so that they can remain classified as independent social businesses.

I beg to move the following amendment:

Leave out all after "notes" and insert "the decision by the Office for National Statistics to reclassify Northern Ireland’s 22 housing associations from independent social businesses to public bodies; recognises that this will have a significant impact on housing associations and their ability to provide new social and shared ownership homes; further notes that this decision will add nearly £1 billion of housing association debt to the Northern Ireland Executive’s balance sheet, seriously impacting on the Executive’s ability to borrow money for other initiatives across the Executive Departments; and calls on the Minister for Communities and Minister of Finance to expedite the steps necessary to reverse this reclassification; and agree quickly an interim derogation arrangement with HM Treasury to enable the sector to continue to function normally, to engage closely with the Scottish and Welsh Governments to agree a joined-up approach, and to outline a clear and detailed timeline for specific action, including bringing forward legislation, within the time frame that any HM Treasury derogation allows, to ensure that Northern Ireland’s housing associations can remain classified as independent social businesses.".

As Members will be aware, events have moved on somewhat since the motion was originally tabled, so an amendment is necessary to take account of the changed circumstances. The original motion was tabled in advance of the decision by the Office for National Statistics (ONS) to reclassify Northern Ireland's housing associations as public bodies, which was announced on Thursday 29 September. What, on the face of it, might appear to be a relatively unimportant and technical change in accounting rules would actually have very serious implications indeed. This is a problem that needs to be rectified quickly, and we will give our help and support to the Executive, within reason, to help with the solution. We welcome the fact that the Executive have vowed to seek a reversal of the ONS decision to reclassify NI housing associations, including amending legislation where appropriate.

Our motion and amendment were tabled because we have two main areas of concern. The first is that housing associations could find it difficult to raise funding and, as a result, there would be a serious effect on their ability to build badly-needed social housing. Given that we are already in the midst of a housing crisis, anything that might contribute to uncertainty and jeopardise the social housing building programme should be avoided at all costs. Approximately 8,000 social housing starts are planned in the next four years, and these would obviously be under threat if there was any question over whether or not local housing associations were able to continue to borrow in the same manner as they can at present and raise much-needed private finances. There would also be major implications for the co-ownership scheme affecting roughly 700 to 800 homes each year. This scheme is funded via the financial transactions capital (FTC) money from the Treasury, and one of the primary conditions is that it can be lent only to private bodies.

The second concern is that, as a result of this reclassification, the approximately £1 billion worth of borrowing currently on local housing associations' books would be transferred to the Executive's balance sheet. This would obviously have a potentially devastating effect on the Executive's finances.

As I stated, our original motion was tabled prior to both the ONS announcement that Northern Ireland housing associations would be reclassified as public bodies and the statements by the Minister for Communities and the Minister of Finance. As a result, my party, working with its SDLP Opposition colleagues, has brought forward the amendment. The amendment takes account of the changed circumstances, and we are confident that it will command support across the House.

The ONS did not just pronounce on the reclassification of Northern Ireland housing associations as public bodies. It also reclassified their counterparts in Scotland and Wales. We are of the view that, as Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales have all been set exactly the same challenge at exactly the same time, if the Executive are serious about being focused on delivery, we need to act at least as swiftly as the Scottish and the Welsh. Stormont has often been accused of inertia and being slow to act. This simply cannot be allowed to happen here. ONS has said:

"We will assess at the impact of these classification decisions and will update the affected statistics at the earliest opportunity."

We have concerns as to what the implications might be for Northern Ireland should there be any delay. We need to see a coordinated approach by the Minister for Communities and the Minister of Finance to the very real dangers that we face. We need to get an appropriate derogation agreed with the Treasury, and then we need to ensure that the derogation is of a sufficient length of time. The legislative process in the House can seem rather torturous. It should go without saying that we need to ensure that we get the relevant legislation through the House without delay and certainly well within the time frame of the derogation.

Even if legislation were being drafted today, we could face a very tight timetable to get a Treasury derogation, given that it can take 18 to 24 months for legislation to pass through the House so that all the required stages receive full scrutiny. We want to see joined-up, concerted action between the devolved Administrations in Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales. The three devolved Administrations need to agree a joint endeavour on the matter to deal with the Treasury on the derogation and to get a deal on the interim arrangements. In short, we need an appropriate derogation with a realistic time frame.

We therefore need a commitment from the Minister for Communities and the Minister of Finance that we will get the legislation through the House not just in a timely manner but at least as quickly as the Administrations in Edinburgh and Cardiff. That is a very important point, because, as the ONS has ruled on housing associations in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland at the same time, it is more than logical to assume that it will reconsider their status at the same time. As stated earlier, it said that it would assess the impact of the classification decisions and update the affected statistics at the earliest opportunity. There is a real danger that Northern Ireland could get left behind and the derogation could run out. We want to avoid that at all costs, given the serious difficulties that it would cause for housing associations' ability to deliver new-build housing and for the borrowing ability of the Executive.

Given the most recent figures, from June 2016, of 37,347 households on the housing waiting list, 22,986 deemed to be in housing stress and 15,747 deemed to be statutorily homeless, it is imperative that we act swiftly. I therefore call on either the Minister for Communities or the Minister of Finance to set out a clear timeline for what action they intend to take. The Opposition are ready and willing to work with the relevant Ministers to the benefit of Northern Ireland.

Christopher Stalford (DUP, Belfast South)

As someone who represents South Belfast, I am painfully aware of the shortages in social housing. All Members who represent Belfast constituencies — not only Belfast, of course, but beyond — have found that there is a need for more social housing. The previous Executive met their target on social housing, and this Executive have set an ambitious target of 8,000 houses, as the Member for East Belfast Mr Allen said.

I think that Members can be assured of the commitment of the Government to achieving a reversal in the Office for National Statistics' decision, not only because of the statements from the Minister on the issue but because of the statements from the Minister of Finance. The Minister of Finance and the Minister for Communities took the issue to the Northern Ireland Executive on the very afternoon that the decision was announced, in order to secure the agreement of the Executive to address it. There is a recognition at the heart of government of the need to secure the derogation. That has been evidenced by my colleague the Minister for Communities and by the Minister of Finance. Officials in the Department for Communities and the Department of Finance are working together to achieve an effective derogation that will allow the time that is needed for all the actions to ensure a successful reversal of the Office for National Statistics' decision.

It is important in the debate to note that Ministers in a devolved Government have no control over the Office for National Statistics. The ONS is the United Kingdom's largest independent producer of official statistics and is the recognised national statistical institution for the United Kingdom. Its responsibilities, as Members will know, include collecting and publishing statistics related to the economy, population and society at national, regional and local level. The Office for National Statistics independently determines classification decisions strictly in accordance with agreed rules set out in established systems. It is important to remember that when we approach the issue.

The Northern Ireland Executive are committed to delivering on their housing target, and we are committed to dealing with the issues that have been raised here. The one thing I would say, having read the motion, is that I welcome the fact that it has been acknowledged that the Executive are doing what has been called for. The motion calls for actions that are already being undertaken by the Executive. In an ordinary system — perhaps in a more parliamentary system — it is supposed to be the Opposition who lead the Government, but, in this instance, the Government are leading the Opposition. Read the content of what has been presented to the House: it calls on the Government to undertake actions that are already being undertaken. I do not want to add further discomfort for our friends at the bottom of the Chamber, but it might be worth considering more detailed discussions with Ministers before rushing in motions that demand actions that are already being carried out by those in positions of —

Naomi Long (Alliance, Belfast East)

I thank the Member for giving way. He, of course, makes a valid point. Government ought to be ahead of the curve on the issue because it was predictable. Do you not agree that it might have been an opportunity for the Minister to make a statement to the House and clarify what exactly he was doing in the last 11 days so that Members could be fully informed?

Robin Newton (Speaker, Belfast East)

The Member has an extra minute.

Christopher Stalford (DUP, Belfast South)

I thank the lady for her point. There are few better informed in the House than her, and she makes her point well. It is important, however, to note that the actions that are being called for are being undertaken.

One issue that has been raised is, of course, the implications that the determination has on public spending and our capacity to borrow money. That has implications that go way beyond matters of housing, and I suspect that the universities in my constituency, in particular, will look closely at the content of the debate and the subsequent resolution of the issues that have been raised.

I think that we can be confident that the changes that the Department will bring forward will allow us to achieve a reversal of the ONS position. There are, of course, no certainties, but I believe that that is the reason why officials in the Department will closely examine the issue with the Office for National Statistics. We can be as sure as anything can be in life and confident that every effort will be made to ensure that the decision is reversed, and I believe that that is what everyone — Government and Opposition — wants to happen.

Fra McCann (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

I will speak to the motion tabled in the name of the Ulster Unionists and to the amendment in the name of the Ulster Unionists and the SDLP. When I first read the motion, it seemed that the Ulster Unionists had not only jumped the gun in tabling the motion, which is rushed and out of date, but had asked for steps to be taken that the Minister of Finance and the Minister for Communities had been working towards. In fact, I have raised those issues with both Ministers and have been assured that all that could be done was being done in the run-up to the decision of the Office for National Statistics to reclassify housing associations across the North from independent social enterprises to public finance bodies.

The amendment is also now redundant, given the decision of the Executive last Thursday when they approved a joint paper from Ministers Ó Muilleoir and Givan to seek a reversal of the ONS decision to reclassify housing associations in the North, including amending legislation where appropriate. They said:

"The Executive is committed to providing suitable homes for all and we will now work together to find the best way forward to allow investment to continue."

The Minister of Finance added:

"Having a secure and stable social housing sector is a ... cornerstone of our civic society."

He went on to say:

"We need to take all measures necessary to ensure that the sector has [the ability] to invest and grow."

The decision by the Office for National Statistics, if left unaddressed by the Executive, would have changed the budgeting rules and could have resulted in an annual shortfall of £100 million for social and affordable housing.

That is why, he said:

"we plan to seek a derogation to prevent this".

That clearly shows that the Ministers and the Executive, who are clued-in to the difficulties —

Roy Beggs (UUP, East Antrim)

Will the Member give way?

Fra McCann (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

No. I have only a couple of minutes.

That clearly shows that the Ministers and the Executive, who are clued-in to the difficulties of the decision the ONS has made, have been proactive in putting out the message that they will seek a derogation. It is also my understanding that the Minister of Finance has been in touch with his equivalents in Scotland and Wales to ensure there is joined-up thinking and that a solution to reclassification can be found. In a statement, the chief executive of NIFHA, Cameron Watt, in response to the Office for National Statistics' reclassification of housing associations, said that he "warmly welcomes" the decision of the Executive to seek a reversal of the decision and their commitment to amend legislation if appropriate. He went on to say that he was:

"delighted that the NI Executive has acted ... decisively to seek a reversal of the ONS decision",

saying that it:

"is vitally important in sustaining this successful partnership."

He went on to say:

"We are grateful to Communities Minister ... and Finance Minister Máirtín Ó Muilleoir ... for their immediate and effective response to the ONS decision. Both Ministers have recognised the crucial role of housing associations in delivering much-needed homes."

The decision in October 2015 by the Office for National Statistics to reclassify housing associations in England from private financial corporations to public non-financial corporations sent shock waves through housing circles across the North, not least because of the impact of reclassification on housing associations here. Now that it has happened, it is crucial that we leave nothing to chance. It is important also to build the partnership Cameron Watt spoke of not only to move to obtain derogation but to plot out a strategy for housebuilding in the social housing sector. I understand what my colleague across the Chamber said about the commitment to 8,000 houses, but we should take that as a minimum rather than a maximum target. It needs to include developing ways to give the power of new build back to the Housing Executive. The fact that a housing provider is sitting on stock of 88,000 houses it cannot use to lever in much-needed finance is madness. Just imagine what a game changer that could be for new build as we work towards a solution to the reclassification problems. We also need to work to make the changes necessary to bring the Housing Executive back into play. We need to look at how we bring the thousands of empty homes back into use —

Robin Newton (Speaker, Belfast East)

I ask the Member to conclude his remarks.

Fra McCann (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

Chair, I would like to mention, because this has not been taken up, the significance of today being World Homeless Day and World Mental Health Day, which are two issues that cross paths and need our urgent attention.

Nichola Mallon (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast North)

It is not only important but essential that the motion was brought to the House today. It is essential because of the profound financial, economic and societal impact of the reclassification by the Office for National Statistics of Northern Ireland's 22 housing associations from independent social businesses to public bodies on housing associations' ability to access finance to build critical and much-needed new homes and the potential to add £1 billion debt to the Executive's balance sheet, as the motion points out, with all the serious implications and consequences that will have for Executive investment in education, health and economic initiatives, among other things.

Yet, despite the significant ramifications of the reclassification, there has been little to no detail of what plans the Communities Minister and Finance Minister had in place in preparation for it — we knew in all likelihood it was coming down the track — and nothing, beyond headlines, of what actions the Ministers had actually taken since the reclassification was announced. In truth, the motion contains more detail than anything forthcoming to date from the Executive or either Minister. In fact, the Minister for Communities and his counterpart in the Department of Finance clearly did not deem the issue important enough to come before this democratic Chamber to make a statement on the matter, give some reassurance to the House and to the people who elected us, give reassurance to each of the 22 housing associations affected and, most importantly, give reassurance to the 37,000 people on the social housing waiting list and the 15,474 deemed homeless and desperately waiting and waiting for a home. Perhaps the Minister will share with us today the rationale for taking this approach. In fact, apart from a joint press release that talked in vague terms of an approved Executive paper seeking a non-detailed reversal of the ONS decision, including amending unspecified legislation and plans to seek a derogation, the House has been provided with no concrete detail of what both Ministers are doing. The Member for South Belfast referred to multiple statements from each Minister: I do not know where those statements are.

This leaves questions to which we seek answers. What level of deregulation will be implemented? Will it have empowerment of the tenant at its core? What consultation has taken place and will take place to ensure that Northern Ireland gets the right response? What discussions have both Ministers had with their counterparts in Scotland and Wales to deliver a joined-up approach and ensure that Northern Ireland is not left behind? What is the Minister's clear and detailed timeline for specific action? What amended legislation is being proposed? At what stage is that legislation? When will it be enacted? Will it be within the time frame that any Treasury derogation allows? If it falls outside the derogation period granted, what safeguards will both Ministers provide? How advanced are derogation negotiations with the Treasury?

I tried to obtain some of that information through a question for written answer tabled on 26 September, but, interestingly, the answer has been embargoed until today. Perhaps the Minister can explain why the embargo was put in place. Hopefully, today, the Minister will provide answers to these questions and others posed by Members across the Chamber or, at least, follow them up in writing if it is not possible to provide definitive answers today.

Before I conclude, I would like to touch on another point. I firmly believe that with change comes great opportunity. We have here a real opportunity not to freely deregulate but to ensure that we deliver sensible, modernised regulation with empowerment of the tenant at its core. Within this, there is also the opportunity, I would argue, to revisit the recommendation of the PricewaterhouseCoopers strategic review of the Northern Ireland Housing Executive, which was supported by the Housing Executive and widely across the housing sector, to establish an independent regulator of social housing.

Prior to the move to reclassify housing associations by the Office for National Statistics, good regulation and effective regulatory infrastructures have been a popular theme in policy development over the last two decades. We are often asked to look —

Robin Newton (Speaker, Belfast East)

Will the Member conclude her remarks?

Nichola Mallon (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast North)

— to Scotland for best practice. On this, I urge the Minister to look to Scotland with regard to the independence of the regulator and to ensure that, in moving swiftly to address budgetary pressures, he does not store up a series of problems for the longer term.

Naomi Long (Alliance, Belfast East)

I welcome the opportunity to speak on the motion and the amendment. Obviously, as others have said, the context has now moved on because the expected decision by the Office for National Statistics to reclassify the housing associations as public bodies has now been announced.

Mr Speaker, you know that, last week, I raised this matter as a point of order because I am of the belief that the announcement is so significant that it required a ministerial statement to the House rather than simply a press release. Whilst the move was expected, its impact and the Executive's response and preparedness to address it are matters of public and political importance and ones that should have been brought to the Chamber. It is all very well to criticise people for tabling motions to bring Ministers to the House on this: Ministers could opt to come to the House of their own volition and give the information to reassure the public. I therefore welcome the opportunity that has been provided by the motion to seek that clarity, but I would like Ministers to make the effort to do that of their own volition rather than deliver lectures to the rest of us about how we should go about our work. A highly significant change, it will not only have ramifications for important economic and social rights to housing but will impact on the wider financial situation in Departments. Housing associations have always been somewhat different from the Housing Executive in how they have approached these matters. Until now, they have been able to operate as industrial and provident societies. That means that they could benefit from both government funding and private finance to allow them to build more homes and perform essential upkeep of their current stock, should they so wish.

It is commonly through commercial banks, the Housing Finance Corporation and, more recently, the European Investment Bank.

The Housing Executive provides around 90,000 homes, and housing associations make up around 40,000 properties, so, all in all, we are talking about 100,000 individuals and families across Northern Ireland. It is also important to remember that many of those are families that are vulnerable, facing hardship and struggling to find employment. The ONS decision impacts on all of them in terms of access to funding for maintenance and upgrades available for their properties. In addition, it also impacts directly on the 40,000 people on the waiting lists for suitable housing and who are in housing stress, as the ability to leverage private funds is crucial in allowing housing associations to develop new stock. It is inconceivable that the Executive could afford to make up the shortfall, even in the interim, without a serious negative impact on the plans and budgets of other Departments.

In June, for example, the European Investment Bank gave £280 million towards social housing in Northern Ireland; that amount of money could not have been sourced if these rules had been in place. It was rightly welcomed at the time, but it is important, if we are to get the construction of 4,700 new social homes over the next five years, alongside the improvement of existing stock, that further opportunities like that are not now put at risk. Therefore, it is important that housing associations are clearly advised about certainty in their funding opportunities. The Minister briefed the Committee and advised that he reckons that, over the next 30 years, about £6·5 billion will need to be injected into housing if accommodation is to meet the significant demand for both social and affordable housing. However, without the additional leverage that we get from housing associations, that simply will not be possible.

In addition, the existing borrowing of housing associations has now essentially been converted into public borrowing — a move that has wide-ranging implications for the cost and accessibility of borrowing for the Executive. During his briefing with the Committee, the Minister indicated that the Department was alert to the possibility of reclassification and that Ministers were ready for the challenge, which we welcome. When similar ONS rulings were made in regard to England, Scotland and Wales, Ministers had a case to present to the Treasury regarding emergency legislation to restructure housing associations in light of the judgement and to meet the requirements for their governance arrangements and allow them to be revisited in due course.

That allowed a temporary derogation to be offered by the Treasury. I ask the Minister whether such emergency legislation has been developed by his Department and what the time frame for tabling it in the Assembly will be. What, if any, reassurance has he had from Treasury that such legislation that he has proposed, and other proposals that he has developed, will meet its requirements for a temporary derogation? Within what time frame does he expect such a derogation to be secured, and how long does he expect it to last? In respect of seeking a reversal of the ONS decision —

Robin Newton (Speaker, Belfast East)

I ask the Member to conclude her remarks.

Naomi Long (Alliance, Belfast East)

— what clarity can the Minister provide with respect to the likely effectiveness of the measures proposed in meeting those requirements?

I support the motion and the amendment, and I look forward to supporting the Ministers in what they do to ensure that the issues are adequately addressed.

Paul Girvan (DUP, South Antrim)

I too support both the motion and the amendment, although I see this as people trying to make themselves seem relevant by putting down a motion on something that the Executive have already made a move to address.

Roy Beggs (UUP, East Antrim)

Will the Member give way?

Paul Girvan (DUP, South Antrim)

No, I will not; I have only started. To be honest, the attitude is that the Opposition are just jumping over issues. We are wasting another hour and a half today discussing something that we have already dealt with.

Andy Allen (UUP, Belfast East)

Will the Member give way?

Paul Girvan (DUP, South Antrim)

I have already said that I am not giving way, OK? The point of the matter is —

Naomi Long (Alliance, Belfast East)

Do the Executive have legislation for us?

Paul Girvan (DUP, South Antrim)

We have — Members — Mr Speaker —

Robin Newton (Speaker, Belfast East)

I ask Members not to speak from sedentary positions.

Paul Girvan (DUP, South Antrim)

Thank you.

I support the motion in the way that it is coming forward. I think that the Executive have made a sensible decision in asking for a derogation in relation to this matter. The ONS report that was submitted, on the back of what it is bringing forward, will create and would have created a major problem, both financially for the Executive and in the opportunity for further borrowing for capital projects that could be of great benefit. I do think that some of the housing associations are not without blame, because I do not believe that they have necessarily delivered in the past. I do not think that they have always been successful in delivering everything that was supposed to have been done by them. There has been a certain amount of — I will not use the word "culling" — consolidation of housing associations in that a number of them have come together and pooled resources.

I appreciate that we are talking about £1 billion of debt associated with these housing associations. There is a massive asset and they are quite asset rich, so, on the back of that, we have to realise that the days of the Housing Executive as it stands are probably numbered. There is the difficulty of onward maintenance and delivery of that maintenance within the housing stock.

I, too, representing the south Antrim area, know those people who come to my door. Quite a heavy load of the office work —

Christopher Stalford (DUP, Belfast South)

Will the Member give way?

Paul Girvan (DUP, South Antrim)

I will indeed, yes.

[Interruption.]

Christopher Stalford (DUP, Belfast South)

I am grateful to the Member for giving way. He is, obviously, very selective and wise in who he gives way to.

The Member will have heard from various sources a demand for more information in terms of the detail. The Office for National Statistics has not even published the detail of its ruling yet.

Robin Newton (Speaker, Belfast East)

The Member has an extra minute.

Paul Girvan (DUP, South Antrim)

Thank you. I appreciate the Member's intervention and the information that we do not have the detail in that report.

The Housing Executive is having some difficulty. In fact, it is wanting to engage in a transfer of assets to housing associations over the next number of years of properties requiring investment, upgrade and improvement. The Housing Executive says that the mechanism is no longer there for it to be able to fund that through the current process, and, as a consequence, it has no alternative but to allow housing associations to do that.

On the back of that, they do have the model —

Steven Agnew (Green, North Down)

I thank the Member for giving way. Does he not accept that the inability of the Housing Executive to make those improvements was a political decision made by DUP Ministers?

Paul Girvan (DUP, South Antrim)

If you go back historically, it was long before the DUP took control of those Departments when such a rule existed in relation to the funding mechanism for the Housing Executive and how it has accessed the funding. So, putting that message forward is a ruse. It is totally wrong and that does not tie in with any decision by a DUP Minister.

As it stands, the housing associations do have the mechanism to draw down the money to deliver the social housing in the areas that we need it. I appreciate and welcome the Executive's early intervention — within hours of receiving the ONS report — in dealing with this matter, and not waiting until they could just get a sound bite and try to make themselves seem relevant.

This is one of the areas where in opposition is where you will be, and that is exactly where you should stay.

Michelle Gildernew (Sinn Féin, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

I welcome the opportunity to speak in this debate. Other Members have pointed out that this motion is retrospectively debating an issue that has already happened and that, when the ONS acted to reclassify housing associations, the Minister for Communities and the Minister of Finance brought a paper to the Executive immediately seeking that derogation.

The point has already been made here as well that the difficulty we have is that there is a shortage in social housing, not just in Belfast or Derry but right across the North. I am currently representing a wide range of applicants, from families to single men, to access a home in my constituency. The big issue is that there are not enough units — enough homes — and there is not enough social housing. The nub of the issue is that the body charged with the provision of housing — the Housing Executive — is no longer in a position to build units. My colleague Fra McCann has covered that. I believe that this is something that we will want to rectify during this mandate. Until this situation is rectified, we will still be playing catch-up.

There are differences of opinion on how many units of social housing we need across the mandate. We have not taken into consideration that there are hundreds of adults living at home with ageing parents because there is not enough supported housing or independent living for them. I am talking about adults who are learning-disabled or have more complex needs, and we do not have adequate housing for them.

As a result, there are ageing parents who are deeply concerned about how their child is going to manage when they are no longer able to look after them. We have to take a proper look at the figures and ensure that those people are dealt with when we are considering the number of housing units needed. While today's debate has been lively enough, there is a fairly high level of consensus around the Chamber. The SDLP amendment is something that we can support, and we will be seeking to do that. I make the point, however, that what is laid out in the amendment is work that is already happening. We are talking about something that has happened, that is happening and that the Minister —

Roy Beggs (UUP, East Antrim)

Will the Member give way?

Michelle Gildernew (Sinn Féin, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

I notice that Mr Beggs has tried to interrupt a number of Members. Maybe he should put his name down to make a speech rather than continually interrupt.

Some Members

Hear, hear.

Michelle Gildernew (Sinn Féin, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

This is an important issue. Housing is at the very heart of what I got involved in politics for. As Fra said, today is World Mental Health Day and World Homeless Day. A proper home and a roof over your head is not a privilege but a human right, and everybody should be able to enjoy that right. We should do more to build more houses, and I will support the Minister in his endeavours to do that. It is essential, however, that we establish new housing units right across the North, as this is not just a Belfast problem.

Maurice (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

This is a debate that never needed to take place. When we look at the Opposition Benches today, we can see that the Opposition now agree that it should never have taken place. Of the parties that are co-signatories to the amendment, the Ulster Unionists can manage five Members and the SDLP one. Even they realise that this is a bit of a non-event.

Naomi Long (Alliance, Belfast East)

More than you managed last week.

Maurice (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

Mrs Long continually fires from a sedentary position, but whenever she is up talking, she has not that much to say, at least not that much that is worth —

Roy Beggs (UUP, East Antrim)

Will the Member give way?

Maurice (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

Hold on a moment.

[Laughter.]

We have heard you parroting off all afternoon. What you want to say must be very important. Well, there is the Speaker up there, so go up and get your name down. For goodness' sake, you are up and down there like a jack-in-the-box. Some of your colleagues will give way. They will be up in a few minutes telling a great story about a non-event.

It is unfortunate that the Opposition on the first occasion that they decide that maybe there is something we can unite on here then unite around nothing. What they are asking to be done is already being done. I found it absolutely amazing that Mrs Long said that the Minister should have been telling us all. I suspect that Mrs Long is not much different from me, in that she walks past the Minister's door maybe a dozen times a day. It would not be hard for her to call in and ask, "Can you tell me about this? I am so anxious about this particular issue".

Naomi Long (Alliance, Belfast East)

I thank the Member for giving way. To be clear, it is not that I should personally be told. That is largely irrelevant. It is that the House should be told, as statements were made in the Chamber in Scotland, Wales and England when similar measures were taken.

Maurice (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

I knew that it was a mistake to give way, but there you go.

Robin Newton (Speaker, Belfast East)

The Member has an extra minute.

Maurice (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

Thank you, Mr Speaker.

There is no one in the House, particularly among those of us who have served for some years on councils and elsewhere, who is not very aware of the importance of social-sector housing. We are also very aware of the waiting lists that exist, but we are also waiting for some blue-sky thinking from those who seem to have all the answers on how to deal with a chronic waiting list in Northern Ireland. It is not a simple one. There is not one Member in the House — not one going right around — who is not anxious about this particular issue. Those who brought the motion to the House today have not done anything to push the issue forward. Maybe what they are really doing is endorsing what the Executive and the Minister are already doing. If there is something positive to take from it, I suppose that we can take that.

Nichola Mallon (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast North)

Will the Member give way?

Maurice (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

Yes. Come on.

Nichola Mallon (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast North)

The Member will be aware that I posed a series of questions about what the Ministers and Executive were doing. Is the Member in a position to answer those? Is all of that information in the public domain?

Maurice (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

Yes. From statements made by the Minister, I know that much, if not all, of the information, is already available. I know that you would be a good researcher, and you or your staff could research all of that information; or, I suspect that, if you contact the Department, it might be able to assist you and send you all the information that you want. As one who has gone through it, I can tell you that the Department's research department is very effective and will assist you. I do not say that to you belligerently; I hope that my tone comes across.

The Opposition need to realise that, if they stopped setting up straw men and knocking them down, maybe we could get things done in this place. Someone mentioned the amount of time that it takes for legislation to go through. I know, as someone who pioneered private legislation in the past, that it took something in the region of three years from start to finish. I do not underestimate the journey that legislation has to take, but the Opposition could have done a greater service by not pushing a motion such as the one that is before us today. It is a motion on something that the Executive have already applied themselves to and the Minister is already working on. He has pushed it down the road, and he, too, sees it as important. If anything good has come out of today's debate, it is that the decision that the Minister took some time ago has been reinforced. What we are saying to you, Minister, is, "You are doing the right thing. Just get on with it".

Roy Beggs (UUP, East Antrim)

It is a rather sad event in a debating chamber when none of the Government Back-Benchers are prepared to give way to allow debate. I am lucky that I had my name down to speak, but I could have interacted and, hopefully, contributed to the discussion and debate had those Members allowed it, but, obviously, they did not feel confident enough in themselves to do so.

I support the motion tabled by my colleagues Andy Allen, Jenny Palmer and Philip Smith, and, indeed, the amendment in the name of my colleagues and the SDLP, which has supported the motion as well. It is important that this area is urgently addressed, and I will highlight why I have a degree of concern because of past inaction. It needs to be in the public domain, and there needs to be pressure on movement in this area because there are concerns from the past.

The decision by the Office for National Statistics to reclassify Northern Ireland's housing associations should not have been a problem. A year ago, when it did so in England, what happened? Earlier this year, the Housing and Planning Act 2016 addressed the issue so that English housing associations could be reclassified again as private bodies. Nobody should be surprised by what has happened. Given that knowledge, I am concerned by the cost that might fall to the Executive or our housing associations as a result of the reclassification. Will there be delays? I have not yet heard when the legislation will come forward, so I hope that the Minister will address that when he gets to his feet later. The Finance Minister has indicated that this will cost an ongoing £100 million a year. Is there a charge this year? On top of that, of course, is the issue that my colleague Andy Allen highlighted, of access to the financial transaction capital, which is also very important for housing associations, particularly for the co-ownership scheme that allows many people who might otherwise be homeless and in need of social housing, to find a home of their own.

We need to address this with a degree of urgency. It was quickly addressed in England, and Scotland's First Minister has already said that a Bill will be introduced. When I listen to the Government Back-Benchers in the Chamber, I am confused: are they all supporting the motion as amended? I picked up a degree of discontent.

Paul Frew (DUP, North Antrim)

Will the Member give way?

Roy Beggs (UUP, East Antrim)

Yes, unlike you and your colleagues, I will give way.

Paul Givan (DUP, Lagan Valley)

I thought this would be an appropriate time to indicate this to the House: given that your amendment is doing exactly what I want to do and the Executive have already agreed, let me reassure you that I will be supporting the amendment.

Robin Newton (Speaker, Belfast East)

The Member has an extra minute.

Roy Beggs (UUP, East Antrim)

The issue is that new legislation will be required. That is very obvious when you see what had to happen in England and what has been planned elsewhere. That has been not coming out very clearly in what has been said to date. To think that you can just ask for derogation is living in cloud cuckoo land. It had to be amended in other parts of the UK and therefore would likely have to be amended here as well.

The other area of concern I had was when I heard Mr McCann speak. His solution was to give the powers back to the Housing Executive. Can the Minister advise, when he gets to his feet, whether that would solve our problem, or would it have additional costs still being incurred where we would not be able to build as many social houses? I would like to see clarity from the Government Benches — the DUP and Sinn Féin Benches — about that. Is that what the plan is? Are we going to simply put the ability to build houses back into the Housing Executive and suffer huge financial costs and be able to build fewer homes? It would be helpful if the Minister would clarify that.

The other area I have a degree of concern about is other aspects of our public sector in Northern Ireland. While researching this issue for the debate, I looked at the FE colleges. There was a similar assessment done in 2010 for FE colleges that is applicable to Northern Ireland as well. In England, they brought the Education Act 2011 to address the issue so that they could remain independent, avoid costs and be included in public-sector expenditure. My understanding is that that is not the case in Northern Ireland. In Northern Ireland, our FE colleges continue to be included, and that limits what they can do. It limits what the Executive can do with their limited borrowing. Bear in mind that that is some five years ago, so I do not want this issue to be still trundling on for five years. As I indicated, very obvious delays happened in the past, and I seek reassurance from the Minister that we will not face similar delays with this issue. When we delay the ability to build new houses, disadvantaged members of our community do not get homes. Families in need do not get a roof over their head. It is vital that there are not undue delays. It is also vital that we do not incur financial penalties as a result of indecision from our Government.

Robin Newton (Speaker, Belfast East)

Will the Member conclude his remarks?

Roy Beggs (UUP, East Antrim)

I only hope that, in future, debate will be allowed in the House.

Stephen Farry (Alliance, North Down)

I will pick up from Mr Beggs on further education to say that there is no clamour in the FE sector for a reclassification away from being a non-departmental public body. The situation for FE in Northern Ireland is much healthier than in England where there have been quite significant funding cuts, which have been cut out from a lot of the narrative on investment in skills and education. Consideration was given to a potential public consultation on changing the governance for FE to allow ONS to reclassify it away from NDPBs. In light of our own difficulties with budgets and the fact that the Executive put in place end-year flexibility that allowed surpluses to be transferred from one year to another, there is now consensus that the status quo is the best way forward. So that is not an appropriate line to go down.

I want to make a number of brief comments on this situation. The key issue of debate that has emerged in the Chamber today is on process and how the Opposition are somehow out of order in bringing up something that the Executive, in their infinite wisdom, are on top of. Almost building upon the theme of last week's business, we are again seeing the problems in openness and transparency in what the Executive are doing. It is almost as though we have a privilege in sometimes being told what the Executive are actually up to. We should have open and transparent government where decisions are explained, questions are answered on time and Ministers are proactive in bringing information to the Assembly rather than putting the onus on everyone else to go around and find out.

It is not just a matter of us receiving the information as poor MLAs in the Opposition parties; this is something that actually affects the public of Northern Ireland, who have an interest in hearing what is being said as well. That is the case in particular for the housing associations and our wider policy objectives of being able to make sure the resources available in Northern Ireland can be stretched to their maximum outcome. Obviously, the reclassification potential will severely curtail that in many respects.

A lot of this could have been avoided if the Minister had been proactive in bringing a statement to the Assembly. That, in turn, allows MLAs, on behalf of their constituents, to pose questions to the Minister. I hope that we can avoid this situation in future. It is an important issue that goes to the heart of the resources available to us and what we can do to make a difference.

Christopher Stalford (DUP, Belfast South)

Will the Member give way?

Stephen Farry (Alliance, North Down)

Yes.

Christopher Stalford (DUP, Belfast South)

Does the Member not agree that it sounds a tad silly to stand up and say that it is the Minister's fault that you have brought forward a motion about an issue that the Minister has dealt with?

Robin Newton (Speaker, Belfast East)

The Member has an extra minute.

Stephen Farry (Alliance, North Down)

Thank you. It is not silly in the slightest. It goes to the heart of the debate. There is, as there should be, a duty on Ministers in the ministerial code — they should follow through on it — to be open around decisions. There is clearly precedent in other jurisdictions that, where there are matters of major public interest, a Minister is proactive in bringing information forward and having scrutiny. When I was the Minister, I did it routinely, as did others.

Naomi Long (Alliance, Belfast East)

I thank the Member for giving way. There seems to be much kerfuffle in the corner because people dared to amend the motion. Does the Member agree that that is largely to do with timing and when the wording of motions has to be set down, which is much further in advance of what would be expected in any other Chamber in these islands?

Stephen Farry (Alliance, North Down)

In concurring with my colleague, I also recall many instances on which the DUP and Sinn Féin, as the two parties of government, did exactly the same thing with motions that had to be tabled where the circumstances had moved on after the original tabling of the motion. It also shows that —

Maurice (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

I thank the Member for giving way. Mrs Long should get it into her head that it was not so much about amending the motion; the motion should have been withdrawn altogether.

Stephen Farry (Alliance, North Down)

For better or worse, this is the only opportunity that the Assembly has had to discuss the issues. If we had what should have been the process in the Chamber of a ministerial statement, we could have done this in a much more structured way, akin to what is happening in Cardiff and Edinburgh, which have shown the way forward in that regard. Lest the current Minister thinks that we are picking on him, although this is the current example, it is a trend across the board. He is not the only one who is falling into the situation of not having the proper mechanisms of accountability. We are having the debate today, and we are able to raise the issues of process and the substance.

My final point is that there are issues in other parts of government where the way that ONS works and how we treat parts of the public sector allow or constrain the ability to borrow and raise money. I encourage the Executive to have a wider look across the piece in that regard. In doing so, we may find, particularly in these very straitened economic times, that there are resources available to us without having to raise revenue directly from the hard-pressed householders across Northern Ireland.

Robin Newton (Speaker, Belfast East)

I ask the Member to conclude his remarks.

Stephen Farry (Alliance, North Down)

We can make our resources stretch that bit further in investing in public services and our infrastructure.

Steven Agnew (Green, North Down)

When I looked ahead to the debate, I anticipated quite a boring debate. This is a crucial issue that speaks to millions of pounds of public spending and potentially having to rewrite budgets if we do not get the derogation that has been talked about. It is a vital issue but a fairly technical one. It is fairly dull issue on which, as is clear from the fact that the Executive parties are supporting a motion and amendment from the official Opposition, there is consensus. We are having a row about something that we agree on. It speaks to an Executive who are insecure about the idea of an Opposition —

[Interruption.]

— and debate.

It is not unreasonable that we should seek to speak on something whose impact would be, as I say, over £100 million on our annual block grant.

Robin Newton (Speaker, Belfast East)

I remind Members not to speak from a sedentary position. The Member needs to be heard.

Steven Agnew (Green, North Down)

Thank you, Mr Speaker. The issue has not come to the Assembly Floor except through questions for oral answer, which I have raised, and we ran out of time before one was even discussed. So, to the best of my knowledge, and apologies if others have asked questions, one response and supplementary from the Finance Minister is all that we have had to debate an issue that massively impacts on public spending. Today should be boring, it should be informative, but it has got caught up in heat, and that heat has been generated by an Executive that seem to be playing opposition for opposition's sake.

To get to the issue —

Christopher Stalford (DUP, Belfast South)

Will the Member give way?

Steven Agnew (Green, North Down)

Yes, I will give way.

Christopher Stalford (DUP, Belfast South)

The Member accuses the Executive of playing opposition for opposition's sake. Is he playing government for government's sake by supporting what the Government are doing today?

Robin Newton (Speaker, Belfast East)

The Member has an extra minute.

Steven Agnew (Green, North Down)

I thank the Member for his question. The point is this: how can we know what the Government are doing if no statement has been made to the House? As Ms Mallon pointed out, there has been one public statement on the issue that lacked detail. This is a very complex issue; we are talking about the deregulation of our housing associations; we are talking about a derogation from Treasury and negotiations for such; and we are talking about an ONS reclassification. As I said, it is all very technical and should be all very boring, but we need detail. That is why the debate is taking place today. I do not think that that is unreasonable. Had there not been a motion, we would have been told that we were not on top of our brief. It is one of the biggest things that is happening in governance in Northern Ireland, and we are not even raising it. So, I think that this is an Executive playing opposition for opposition's sake.

To get to the issue, if we can take it as read — I am yet to be completely assured that we will get our derogation and that we will have a deregulation Bill of housing associations — I would like to know the specifics of that because I think that there is both fear and opportunity in this, and what I look for from the Minister is to allay the fears and to ask him to seize the opportunities. Will he outline in any legislation that may come forward to the House, what impact it may have on strategic planning for house building programmes and how much control we can realistically expect to retain regarding stock levels? Will he also give detail, as we seek a reversal of the decision and a derogation, on the status of public finances and what discussions he has had with the Treasury on that point?

I said that there was opportunity because I think that there is. One of the consequences of the deregulation of housing associations is that they would be brought out of the right-to-buy scheme. That is something that I would welcome, and I would like the Minister's views on that. We have a significantly reduced social housing stock. If we go back to the 70s, we had 155,000 Housing Executive houses; we are now down to 88,000, plus the 40,000 housing association houses. That is not all down to the right to buy, but it has been one aspect of it. Given the figures that have been outlined by others in the debate about stress on our housing waiting lists, that is one thing that should be looked at.

There is further opportunity because, as we look to the governance of our housing associations, we can look again at the governance of the Housing Executive. I am one of those who would like to see an amendment of the rules to allow the Housing Executive to build social homes again —

Robin Newton (Speaker, Belfast East)

I ask the Member to conclude his remarks.

Steven Agnew (Green, North Down)

— and to make capital investments. My final point is that, whilst Mr Girvan pointed out that it was not the DUP's decision to change the rules about Housing Executive capital spend, every DUP Minister has upheld that decision.

Gerry Carroll (People Before Profit Alliance, Belfast West)

It is clear from the comments made in the Chamber and from the statistics that we have a housing crisis. Some 43,000 people are on the housing waiting list. That includes our homeless, people with disabilities who need tailored accommodation, people who are being intimidated, people who need to move elsewhere to be closer to family, and people who have been stuck in hostels for years.

The issue of housing waiting lists, in my constituency and across the North, is fundamentally linked to economic class. Working-class people do not have the ability to get an extra few thousand pounds to purchase a house. Some, who have been able to save over the years, are able to get a mortgage, but it is only through strict saving that they are able to do that, and this is not an option for everyone. Public housing should exist as a right for everyone.

As has been mentioned, there are 87,107 housing units managed by the Housing Executive. A number almost double that is managed by housing associations. In the motion and the amendment, there is no mention of the Housing Executive. I think that it is essential that the Housing Executive be mentioned in this debate.

For years, there have been calls to allow the Housing Executive to borrow. It has more than enough assets to borrow, and this is something that needs to be addressed and looked at seriously. The Executive have continually lobbied Westminster for corporation tax to be lowered. I ask whether they have once put pressure on the Treasury to allow the Housing Executive to borrow so that it can build.

The main issue in the motion is that the housing associations should be allowed to borrow and that this ONS reclassification will not allow them to do so. It is our view that housing associations — public bodies — should be allowed to borrow, and the Housing Executive needs to address that. If we could take action to allow the Housing Executive to borrow, we could fund a crash course of housebuilding. We could alleviate problems, get rid of the issue of housing waiting lists and get rid of the housing crisis.

Robin Newton (Speaker, Belfast East)

Members, as Question Time begins at 2.00 pm, I suggest that the House takes its ease until then. The debate will continue after Question Time, when the Minister will reply to the debate.

The debate stood suspended.

(Madam Principal Deputy Speaker [Ms Ruane] in the Chair)

Oral Answers to Questions — Health

Caitriona Ruane (Deputy Speaker, South Down)

Before we start, I remind Members to continue to rise in their place if they wish to ask a supplementary question. Otherwise, I will assume that they no longer wish to ask their question.

Christopher Stalford (DUP, Belfast South)

1. Mr Stalford asked the Minister of Health how she plans to reduce dental waiting lists. (AQO 409/16-21)

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

My Department is working closely with the Health and Social Care Board (HSCB) in developing an elective care plan to arrest the decline in elective waiting times and deliver sustainable improvements in the medium to longer term across all specialities. As well as maximising the number of patients who can be treated in the community, the plan will ensure that existing funded capacity in the health service is fully maximised and targets new and recurrent investment to expand the health service's capacity to meet patient demand. However, it will require significant additional funding to deliver this. I will continue to engage with my Executive colleagues to secure the additional investment necessary to transform the delivery of services.

As with all specialities, trusts are continuing to work with the Health and Social Care Board to minimise dental waiting times within the resources available. Patients are treated on the basis of clinical urgency, with patients of equal clinical priority being seen in chronological order. The board is also working with trusts and referring practitioners to finalise the roll-out of referral guidelines that aim to reduce the number of unnecessary referrals for consultant-led dental treatment and thereby allow clinicians to focus on patients who require treatment.

Christopher Stalford (DUP, Belfast South)

I thank the Minister for her response. In the vein that prevention is better than cure, will she outline what collaborative efforts are being made between her Department and, perhaps, the Department of Education or other Departments to educate our young people in particular about the need to protect their teeth in order that, hopefully, they do not have to avail themselves of dentistry as much as is the case at present?

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

I absolutely agree with the Member that prevention is better than cure. We need to do more to prevent tooth decay from happening in the first place, because that would be the ideal scenario. We have a regional preschool prevention programme called "Happy Smiles" for children in nurseries. All trusts deliver programmes similar to the tooth-brushing challenge, which is delivered in the Belfast Trust from primary 4 onwards. Evidence is growing that, where prevention programmes are targeted on young children, a reduction of up to 30% in disease levels can be reached. I want our children to be the beneficiaries of all these successful prevention programmes.

My Department has also provided funding for tooth decay prevention campaigns over the years — for example, since 2005, £100,000 has been provided to trusts to target children in deprived areas. It is important that we continue to do more of that preventative work. Looking to the future, I want to focus on prevention, not just for tooth decay but right across the piece. It is important that we prevent people from getting to the point at which they need to use hospital services. Prevention is one of my key priorities.

Gerry Mullan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, East Londonderry)

I thank the Minister for her answers so far. The case of young Connla Quinn is very distressing and has been widely reported in the media recently. Has the Minister considered providing undergraduate training in dental studies at Ulster University in Coleraine to alleviate the problem of staff shortages in the Western Trust and reduce ever-increasing locum costs on dentists?

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

I do not have any information about the Western Trust specifically; I am happy to provide that to the Member in writing. Obviously, there are challenges for the Western Trust, but there are challenges for many trusts with workforce issues and being able to recruit people. We have an over-reliance on locums, and that is not the place that we want to be. We need to transform Health and Social Care, and we need a real and meaningful workforce plan that allows us to recruit staff. It is difficult to recruit staff. Quite often, trusts go out to recruitment but cannot fill posts. We need to do more to change that picture. I do not have specific information about the Western Trust, but I will write to the Member.

Robbie Butler (UUP, Lagan Valley)

I thank the Minister for her answers so far. The current problems in dental waiting lists would, of course, be significantly worse were it not for the pre-emptive actions of Michael McGimpsey in 2009. It is just unfortunate that similar attention was not shown by his successors. Will the Minister confirm how many of the dentistry graduates who applied for work in Northern Ireland last year were able to find training posts here?

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

I am sure Michael will be glad to hear you are still singing his praises after he has left the House. I do not have the figures with me, but I am happy to respond to the Member in writing with the stats on the number of people who were successful in the recruitment.

Stewart Dickson (Alliance, East Antrim)

Thank you, Minister, for the answers to your questions thus far. Given the evidence that fluoride is one of the major contributors to improvements in dental health and hygiene, what action are you taking to ensure that it could be placed in our public water supply?

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

It is one of those issues that are quite emotive and topical. Some people do not want to be forced to have fluoride in their water, and I think that is a legitimate and genuine concern. It is something we keep under review. Any decisions I take will be based on a clinical assessment of whether something is the right thing to do for people's outcomes. I will always be guided by that, and it is the same scenario for fluoride in water.

Pat Sheehan (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

2. Mr Sheehan asked the Minister of Health for an update on progress at the Desertcreat site. (AQO 410/16-21)

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

On 28 September, I announced the appointment of the design team for the early works at Desertcreat. That is a positive step forward in the development of a much-needed new Fire and Rescue Service training facility. Early works on the ground at Desertcreat are expected to commence in spring 2017. The total forecast capital investment is approximately £45 million, and the main design includes a fire station, teaching accommodation, a multipurpose training warehouse, a hothouse and swift-water and skidpan facilities at Desertcreat. The main capital works are expected to commence by late 2018.

The training centre, once completed and operational, will provide a facility in which our firefighters can learn the skills they need to keep the public and themselves safe. Training opportunities will include addressing fires in confined spaces and intense smoke, working with rapid water, as in flood rescues, and dealing with the outcome of road traffic accidents.

The local community in mid-Ulster will be fully engaged during the development of Desertcreat, and I have written to the chief executive of Mid Ulster council offering to meet him and all elected members regarding this important investment.

Pat Sheehan (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as ucht a freagra. I thank the Minister for her comprehensive answer. Will she give us a timeline for the completion of Desertcreat?

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

With the design team in place since last month, it has been tasked with undertaking necessary design work to progress the approved works. We hope that early works will start in spring 2017, and the approval of the main works, through the approval of an outline business case, is planned for the first half of 2018. Main construction works are planned to commence in late 2018, and it is estimated they will take just over two years to complete, in 2020-21.

Sandra Overend (UUP, Mid Ulster)

I thank the Minister for that information. The so-called Community Safety College that was to be built at Desertcreat was to be finished last year. It was supposed to bring between 1,500 and 2,000 jobs in construction. Unfortunately, that all fell through, and mid-Ulster has been left very sore about the Desertcreat project. Can the Minister provide similar figures for this project in terms of construction? How does she feel it will benefit mid-Ulster?

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

I can confirm that it will be an investment in mid-Ulster of £45 million. I am very aware, as the Member is, of the concerns over the years about the project and whether it was going to come to mid-Ulster at all. We have finalised the case, and I can say categorically, without any doubt, that the project will go ahead. We have appointed the design team, the works will be delivered, and we hope to have staff training and working there from the 2020-21 financial year.

It is a £45 million investment for mid-Ulster, and it is something I know the council has been lobbying very strongly on. As I said, I will talk to the council to give assurances that the project will go ahead. The people of mid-Ulster deserve, want and crave confirmation that the project will go ahead, and I am certainly committed to delivering it in this mandate.

Raymond McCartney (Sinn Féin, Foyle)

3. Mr McCartney asked the Minister of Health for her assessment of the askmyGP pilot at the Abbey and Aberfoyle GP practices. (AQO 411/16-21)

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

AskmyGP is a telephone- and web-based patient triage system, and it is being piloted in four GP practices here, including Abbey and Aberfoyle. Patients contacting their GP practice for an appointment are asked to provide responses to a series of questions about their condition either over the telephone or online. The responses are then passed to the GP, who makes a decision about the most appropriate course of action to respond to that patient's needs. For some patients, that might mean referral to another healthcare professional for advice or treatment, ensuring that patients who do not need to be seen by a GP can be seen quickly.

The initial results from the pilot exercise are extremely positive. Patients using the askmyGP app have received a callback from their GP or other care professional in around 30 to 40 minutes and often much sooner. In cases where a patient needs to be seen, they are being seen on the same day. Across the GP pilot practices, 94% of patients using askmyGP were satisfied or very satisfied with the service. GPs have also been extremely positive about the impact of the new service on their ability to meet patient demand and the reduced pressure on their working day. Work has now commenced to extend the pilot to a further 30 GP practices.

Raymond McCartney (Sinn Féin, Foyle)

Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as a freagra. I thank the Minister for her answer. I welcome this initiative and the positivity that surrounds it. Can the Minister outline what other investment there will be in general practice alongside this initiative?

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

In 2015-16, an investment package of up to £5·1 million was agreed for general medical services (GMS), including additional funding of £3·1 million to build capacity in GP out of hours services, up to £1·2 million to increase the skills mix in general practice and help meet the demand for blood tests and other diagnostic work, and up to £300,000 to recruit and retain GPs. Further non-recurrent funding was also provided last year to pilot a phone and online triage system, which we have just discussed.

In December last year, a five-year initiative was launched to place up to 300 pharmacists in GP practices by 2021, with an associated total investment rising up to £14 million per year. This will mean that, where appropriate, patients can be given advice and assistance directly by a pharmacist, with GP time freed up for the patients who most need to see them. The first wave of pharmacists has been recruited. Over 35 whole-time equivalent posts have been filled, with staff starting to take up posts from mid September. The second wave of recruitment is under way, with wave 3 being planned.

In January, investment of £1·2 million per year was secured to increase the number of GP training places each year from 65 to 85. As part of the GMS contract settlement for 2016-17, up to a further £7 million will be invested in general practice, including £2 million to meet the additional demand for GP services, £1·7 million to continue to roll out the practice-based pharmacists programme and £160,000 to develop online booking and repeat prescribing systems. These systems will be available to every GP practice that wishes to adopt them and will mean that people can access their GP surgery online at a time that is convenient for them.

Mark Durkan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

I thank the Minister for her answers thus far. I also very much welcome this scheme and many of the Minister's initiatives, as outlined, that will alleviate pressure on our GPs. On the issue of recruitment and retention of GPs, does the Minister see that a new medical school in the north-west could go some way to increasing the number of people coming into and remaining in general practice?

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

There are obvious challenges in recruiting GPs, and rural GP practices are having particular challenges. The GP-led care working group has reported back to me, and I am very keen to take forward a number of that group's recommendations, particularly those looking at the recruitment and retention of GPs. There are particular challenges in the north-west. In answer to a previous question, I talked about the challenges in relation to dental services and recruiting dentists. However, it is the same right across the piece. Recruitment is difficult in the Western Trust area. Would a medical school in that area help? I think that it would, and I am very keen to progress that. I have had some discussions with the university about taking that forward. I am very keen that that happens. It would really help with the workforce challenges that we have in that area.

Gary Middleton (DUP, Foyle)

I thank the Minister for the schemes that she has announced. They will be very welcome, particularly the askmyGP scheme. You mentioned that it will be extended to 30 other practices. How long do you foresee the pilots lasting? When will a roll-out right across the Province be possible?

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

The feedback has been so positive. As I said, 94% of people said that they were satisfied or very satisfied. The pilot is available to any GP practice that wants to avail itself of it. We have actually put some funding in place to support that. That funding allows GPs to adapt and bring in something that could be difficult to bed in at the start. I am very keen that we roll it out right across the piece if we can. GPs are very keen to do that. They want to see the people who need to be seen and they want to see them on the same day, if necessary. The askmyGP scheme has shown that it does work and that it allows GPs to free up their time to see people. I am very keen to roll it out across the board, and GPs are keen for that to happen, too.

Paula Bradshaw (Alliance, Belfast South)

I want to continue on that last point. You said that you have put out a call for the roll-out to the next 30 GP practices. If you are oversubscribed, how do you plan to decide which ones will get the roll-out at the next stage?

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

GPs are asking for this; they are asking for support to allow them to see people in a more timely fashion. GPs are distraught and distressed if they cannot see people on the day and if people are having to wait for a number of days to get appointments. This is about real transformation; it is about doing things differently and allowing GPs to free up their time. I do not think that we will get to a point where we cannot support GPs to do this. This will deliver better outcomes for people. In the scheme of things, the financial investment is not massive, but it makes a real difference. I do not think that there will be an issue with competition and who gets the service; it will be an issue of how quickly we can roll it out and how everybody embraces it.

Steven Agnew (Green, North Down)

4. Mr Agnew asked the Minister of Health how she has taken the homelessness strategy for Northern Ireland 2012-17 into account in the exercise of her Department’s functions. (AQO 412/16-21)

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

One of the objectives of the homelessness strategy is to improve services to vulnerable homeless households and individuals. This objective impacts on the health and social care service in a number of ways, particularly in relation to mental health, domestic and sexual violence and substance misuse.

Officials from my Department and the Public Health Agency participate in the homelessness strategy steering group and contribute to addressing policy and service delivery issues in partnership with the Department for Communities, the Housing Executive and the range of voluntary and community sector organisations that provide assistance and outreach to homeless people. In addition, I am a member of the inter-ministerial group on rough sleeping and homelessness, and Minister Givan will shortly convene a meeting of that group that I will attend.

Health and social care must be available on the basis of clinical need to everyone equally, including homeless people and rough sleepers, and care and treatment must be delivered in the appropriate primary, community and secondary settings when required. While services are available, it is accepted that there may be increased difficulties in homeless people and rough sleepers accessing those services, and that is a key area that the Department is considering in conjunction with the Public Health Agency.

We are all aware of the tragic deaths of five homeless people in Belfast last winter. Concerns were raised about a possible lack of communication between health services and homeless people; problems with access to mental health and addiction treatment; and a lack of arrangements with social services when homeless patients are discharged from emergency departments or inpatient care. Those concerns are being addressed.

The Department for Communities is leading on an interdepartmental action plan to address some of the problems that are specific to Belfast, and my Department, the Public Health Agency and the Belfast Trust are responsible for addressing two key actions, namely developing arrangements to ensure that people discharged from hospital who do not have access to accommodation are signposted effectively to existing services and assessing the services available in relation to alcohol and drug early intervention, harm reduction and treatment and support services —

Caitriona Ruane (Deputy Speaker, South Down)

Will the Minister bring her remarks to a close?

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

Thank you.

Steven Agnew (Green, North Down)

I thank the Minister for her thorough answer. She referred to mental health issues and substance misuse. Obviously, the best solution to homelessness is to prevent it in the first place. Will she give a commitment that she will send sufficiently senior officials to the homeless strategy steering group to ensure that decisions can be made and to ensure that they can look at addressing issues such as detox facilities?

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

Yes, I can make sure that that happens. It is not just a nod to the issue; it is about real and meaningful engagement. I will certainly make sure that the relevant officials attend, and I will also show leadership at the ministerial group, which is important in showing the significance of the issue and the priority that we give to it.

Paula Bradley (DUP, Belfast North)

I thank the Minister for her answers so far. We all know about health inequalities, and we discuss that constantly in the Health Committee and in the Chamber. One of the biggest health inequalities is amongst our homeless community. In my area of Belfast, innovative work is being done by health and social care staff. Will the Minister look at that innovative work and maybe roll it out across our other cities in Northern Ireland? I know that some of our nursing staff in Belfast are doing great work.

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

Yes, I obviously concur with you about the work that staff do on the front line in engaging with people, trying to make a difference and trying to support them. It is my job to support those staff to enable them to do what they do well. We should be innovative, and I am always open to looking at new ideas and at good practice and rolling it out where it is proven to work. If there are any initiatives that work, we should replicate those across the North to ensure that we deliver the best support we possibly can for those who find themselves homeless.

Cathal Boylan (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

I want to follow on from some of the answers that have been given. The Minister outlined issues associated with mental health and substance misuse. Will she inform the House of what services are available to assist homeless people who suffer from mental health and substance misuse issues?

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

There is substantial demand for addiction and mental health services for young people throughout the region, and services are under constant pressure. In Belfast, the demand for drug and alcohol mental health services has resulted in those services being provided by a very specialist team with a largely consultative role that only directly deals with very high-risk individuals. Step 3 child and adolescent mental health services (CAMHS) community services continue to see and treat young people who have a significant mental health issue as a result of their substance misuse, for example, psychotic presentation, or have co-morbid mental health and substance misuse issues. Regionally, the Public Health Agency (PHA) has confirmed recurrent investment in the Drug and Alcohol Mental Health Service (DAMHS), and trusts are in the process of recruiting to those teams.

In addition, a range of alcohol and drug education, early intervention, treatment and support services was launched in July 2015 across all five health and social care trust areas. A number of those services are targeted specifically at children and young people and their families, and work is ongoing to improve awareness of the services. It will, of course, require time for those relatively new services to bed in properly and to allow for meaningful assessment of their effectiveness. In the meantime, the need of any additional support will continue to be monitored and kept under review.

Jo-Anne Dobson (UUP, Upper Bann)

Does the Minister agree with me that a key tool to ending scenes of people sleeping rough on the streets of Northern Ireland would be to place a statutory duty to prevent homelessness on public services such as the NHS? Will she consider that?

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

I do not think that it is just the responsibility of the health service; it requires a holistic response. It should obviously be cross-departmental. It relates to a home or a house and to people's mental health and physical well-being; it is right across the piece. If we were to legislate for that, it would obviously be cross-departmental, but I would certainly be open to looking at all that. We should do absolutely everything we can to prevent anyone from becoming homeless and should provide whatever supports we can. I am very open to working with Executive colleagues to make sure that we deliver the best possible outcomes.

Nichola Mallon (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast North)

I thank the Minister for her commitment to showing leadership on homelessness. Is she satisfied that her Department is doing all that it can in working with other Departments and partners outside government to prevent and tackle homelessness?

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

Yes; I have no reason to believe otherwise. As I said earlier, we have some fantastic and amazing healthcare workers engaging with people on the front line and trying to prevent homelessness and who are worried about the patients they deal with. They do an excellent job, and I have no reason to doubt that my Department is in any way found wanting in working cross-departmentally, with other agencies and with the community and voluntary sector. If the Member has any particular issues that she wants to raise, I would be very happy to receive that information.

Nelson McCausland (DUP, Belfast North)

5. Mr McCausland asked the Minister of Health whether she will review the current regulations governing proposals by pharmacies to relocate their premises. (AQO 413/16-21)

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

There are no current plans to review the regulations relating to applications by community pharmacies to relocate their premises. The Health and Social Care Board is required to make arrangements for the provision of community pharmacy services, which includes dispensing drugs that are prescribed by prescribers. It does that by contracting out those services to independent retail pharmacies, and a community pharmacy contractor can only dispense health service prescriptions if they are included in the pharmaceutical list that is maintained by the board.

If a community pharmacy contractor wishes to relocate within the neighbourhood in which they already provide services and to provide the same pharmaceutical services without interruption, they can make an application to the Health and Social Care Board. The change of premises must be within the neighbourhood of the premises currently occupied, and the same services must be provided to essentially the same population. If the board agrees that the relocation is minor and is satisfied that the pharmaceutical services that are provided from the existing premises will be provided from the new premises and that there will be no interruption in the provision of those services except as allowed by the board, it must grant the application. In reaching its decision, the board must take account of the views of Community Pharmacy NI. A minor relocation is one in which there will be no significant change in the population served and in which other circumstances are such that there will be no appreciable effect on the pharmaceutical services provided by the applicant or by any other community pharmacy in the neighbourhood. If the board decides that a relocation is not minor, the application is treated as if it were a new application to join the pharmaceutical list.

Nelson McCausland (DUP, Belfast North)

The reason that I raised the question is that, whilst it seems logical to have some form of collocation or near location of a pharmacy and GP surgery, on occasion there are objections from other pharmacies. I encourage the Minister to look at outcomes in view of the fact that sometimes the decisions can be disadvantageous to local communities where a change of location may have been beneficial. I ask her to look at past decisions and, in that light, consider whether there is merit in reviewing the regulations.

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

OK. I will take on board what the Member says. The issue has not been highlighted to me as one of concern, but I will ask officials to look into it.

Ian Milne (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

Buíochas fosta don Aire. What is the Minister's assessment of the role of Community Pharmacy in supporting the reform of the health and social care system?

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

Community pharmacies have a strong role to play in supporting the reform of the health and social care system. They help people to get well and to stay well. They dispense approximately 40 million prescription items a year, provide advice and information about medicines and a healthy lifestyle, offer services to improve the safe and effective use of medicines, and support self-care and prevention. There are currently 533 community pharmacies, employing highly qualified pharmacists supported by dedicated healthcare teams. Community pharmacies are therefore an important resource in local communities, and it is estimated that approximately 9% of the population visit a community pharmacy daily.

My Department's vision for Community Pharmacy's contribution to the reform of the health and social care system is set out in a number of strategic documents currently being implemented, including 'Transforming Your Care', 'Making It Better Through Pharmacy in the Community' and the medicines optimisation quality framework. Optimising the benefits of medicine is an important enabler of reform, and the skilled Community Pharmacy workforce are applying their clinical skills to help achieve better outcomes for patients and promote healthy lifestyles. Community pharmacies also support reform by helping to reduce demand on GP and other acute services through provision of advice and treatment of common complaints without the need for a doctor's appointment.

Harold McKee (UUP, South Down)

It is unfortunate that a major high street pharmacy is offering free flights and accommodation to entice pharmacists, specifically to relocate from Northern Ireland to England. Can the Minister give a commitment that, under the current regulations, approval for such relocations is granted only when it is determined that such a move would not disproportionately affect existing patient groups using the pharmacy?

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

I tried to set that out in my initial answer on the factors that the board takes into account when deciding whether someone can relocate. It has to be about serving the population. Community Pharmacy is an excellent resource, which can do, and wants to do, so much more to support people. I read somewhere that, particularly in deprived areas, people are more likely to seek the advice of their pharmacist than that of their GP. We need to use that resource more, and I want to work with Community Pharmacy. The board takes all the factors that I outlined into account when deciding whether a relocation is allowed to go ahead.

Sinéad Bradley (Social Democratic and Labour Party, South Down)

I welcome the Minister's comments that she values the work of Community Pharmacy and sees an enhanced role for it in the future. Can she give an assurance that, in packaging up that enhanced role, there will be sufficient budget to run alongside it?

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

Yes. As I said, I very much value the work of Community Pharmacy. We are currently in the process of agreeing new contractual arrangements with it, and that will form part of discussions for the contract. Pharmacies want to do so much more, and I want to work with them to allow that. They deliver really high patient outcomes and maximise front-line engagement with individuals who come in to ask for advice. There is an appetite in Community Pharmacy to do more, and I want to work with it to make sure that we support it in delivering more.

Caitriona Ruane (Deputy Speaker, South Down)

Sin deireadh an ama do cheisteanna liostaithe. That ends the period for listed questions. We now move on to 15 minutes of topical questions.

Alan Chambers (UUP, North Down)

T1. Mr Chambers asked the Minister of Health what advice or hope she can offer to those people, and their families, who are in pain and enduring major disruption to their quality of life, given that, today, one in five people are on a waiting list, including 33,600 outpatients waiting longer than a year; 93% of red-flagged breast cancer patients in the Southern Trust area not being seen within 14 days; and thousands waiting for non-elective surgery in the Ulster Hospital, including many of my constituents. (AQT 296/16-21)

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

I share the Member's concern about waiting times. Since I took up office, I have said that some of the waiting times are totally unacceptable. We need to transform how we deliver health and social care so that people are not sitting on waiting lists. I have inherited what I think is an outdated system that is trying to deliver 21st-century health and social care. We have to transform how we deliver care in order to bring down waiting lists. I am certainly committed to that. I have told the House that I intend to announce my way forward on how we will transform health and social care, and I will do that over the next number of weeks. The situation with waiting lists, whether they be for breast cancer referrals, which we discussed last week, or autism assessments — no matter what it is — cannot continue the way it is. We have to address it, and I have said that doing that is a priority for me.

Alan Chambers (UUP, North Down)

Many people await the much-delayed publication of the Bengoa report. Will the Minister, first, give an account for the delay and, secondly, give a commitment that it will be published in its totality and nothing in the original report will be withheld?

Caitriona Ruane (Deputy Speaker, South Down)

The Minister can choose which of those questions to answer.

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

I have already said publicly that I intend to publish the document, and I will do so on 25 October, so you can get your reading ready for that day. I have told the Committee for Health that that is what I will do. Nothing will be held back. I will publish the report by Professor Bengoa and the panel, but, more importantly, alongside that I will publish how I intend to take things forward, transform health and social care, deliver better outcomes and bring down waiting lists. I think that that is the piece of work that we all want. I look forward to engaging with everybody on that because, at this time, we have an opportunity to show political leadership and work with clinicians to ensure that we have clear patient pathways and a better system that delivers 21st-century care for all those who need health and social care services.

Paula Bradshaw (Alliance, Belfast South)

T2. Ms Bradshaw asked the Minister of Health whether she intends to instruct her Department to authorise the commissioning of nivolumab, which is part of a combined immunotherapy life-extending cancer treatment that has recently been authorised in England because of its effectiveness. (AQT 297/16-21)

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

I do not have details on that specific drug. I will always be led by clinical guidance and professionals. I am happy to take a look at it, but I do not have information with me on that drug.

Paula Bradshaw (Alliance, Belfast South)

I will certainly provide that to you. I will carry on with access to cancer drug treatments: where are we with the task and finish group's review of individual funding requests? When will we get information on how that will change in the future?

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

I do not have a particular time frame, but I believe that I will get the report over the next number of weeks. I will then make decisions on the way forward. It is important that we have and provide clear information for people who may need specialist drugs, whether for cancer or anything else. The work has been really useful. I think that I will take receipt of that over the next number of weeks. I am then happy to provide the House with information on how we take it forward.

Caitriona Ruane (Deputy Speaker, South Down)

Alex Maskey is not in his place. Caoimhe Archibald is not in her place.

Danny Kennedy (Deputy Speaker, Newry and Armagh)

T5. Mr Kennedy asked the Minister of Health to provide an update on the ministerial working group on fatal foetal abnormality (FFA) and the timescale for publication of the group’s recommendations. (AQT 300/16-21)

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

The Minister of Justice and I agreed the membership and terms of reference of the fatal foetal abnormality working group on 5 July. That group has been working over the summer and the last number of months to consider the care and support provided to women and their families when a fatal foetal abnormality diagnosis has been given. That includes consideration of legislative changes. The group has met on several occasions, and I expect to receive its report in the coming days. Along with the Minister of Justice, I will then bring it to the Executive.

Danny Kennedy (Deputy Speaker, Newry and Armagh)

I thank the Minister for her replies thus far. Prior to the publication of the working group's recommendations, what actions are being taken, Minister, by your Department to provide care and support services for women who find themselves carrying an unborn child with a life-limiting disability?

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

Obviously, clear guidance has been published and is with all trusts. Any woman or any family who find themselves in the scenario of having a diagnosis of fatal foetal abnormality is in a desperate situation. It requires the health service to be responsive by being supportive of that individual, no matter what their choice is for the future. The work of the working group has been vital in how we go forward and change things. Women who find themselves in this scenario need every possible support we can offer. It is a really difficult scenario, so it is important we make sure that the systems, processes and practices within the health and social care trusts are fit for purpose and are responsive to the needs of those individuals. I am grateful for the work of the working group, and I look forward to bringing forward how we will implement the changes that the group will recommend.

Naomi Long (Alliance, Belfast East)

T6. Mrs Long asked the Minister of Health, following on from Mr Kennedy's question, what will happen if that panel recommends legislation and how that will be taken forward in a timely manner, given that the Justice Minister has already indicated that her intention is not to bring forward legislation this year. (AQT 301/16-21)

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

I will obviously continue to discuss the issue with the Justice Minister. We have to be guided by the working group we put in place to do a job and bring back recommendations on how we need to do things differently. I suppose it will be for the Executive to decide how we take it forward, but I will bring the report that the working group produces over the next days to the Executive in its entirety. If there is a recommendation for legislative change, I will certainly be up for making that legislative change.

Naomi Long (Alliance, Belfast East)

I thank the Minister for the openness of her response on the issue. She will be aware that it is three years since Sarah Ewart was diagnosed and Ella Ewart very sadly passed away. She will be aware that women who are faced with that diagnosis do not have time on their side in making their decisions. Can she confirm that she will treat this as a matter of urgency to ensure that the decisions they have to make are treated with the respect and dignity they need to be in terms of the courts and the law?

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

Absolutely. I can without reservation say that that is the case. This is a priority. This is an issue that has been left in the ether for too long. No matter what their choice is, we need to support these women. The working group was established as soon as I came into office; I made sure that it set about its task. As I said, I will receive that report in the next number of days, and I intend to bring it to the Executive for full consideration.

Richie McPhillips (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

T7. Mr McPhillips asked the Minister of Health to provide an update on what contingency measures her Department is taking to tackle the issue of a shortage of GPs in rural areas, given that she will aware that, in the west, a quarter of GPs are over the age of 55, many will soon be approaching retirement and no new doctors are coming forward to replace them, including in Ederney and Rosslea where no replacement GP is available. (AQT 302/16-21)

Caitriona Ruane (Deputy Speaker, South Down)

Has the Member a question?

Richie McPhillips (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

Pardon?

Caitriona Ruane (Deputy Speaker, South Down)

Has the Member a question?

Richie McPhillips (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

We have already seen the shortage in Ederney and Rosslea, and there is no replacement GP available for the local population.

Caitriona Ruane (Deputy Speaker, South Down)

Can the Member come to his question, please?

Richie McPhillips (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

Can the Minister provide an update on what contingency measures her Department is taking to tackle this impending rural GP issue?

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

I fully appreciate the challenges in GP-led services, and I am committed to developing a plan that will ensure long-term sustainability for GP services. There are particular challenges in rural areas. You have pointed to Fermanagh as an example, and that has been an extremely difficult issue. I assure the Member that the board and the trust are working hard to make sure that we have GP services on the ground delivering for patients. I have met local representatives from the Royal College of GPs and the BMA GP committee to listen to their concerns, and I am considering the findings of the GP-led working group, which has made a number of recommendations on identifying future funding priorities for health and social care services here. I am certainly committed to making sure we address the issues and the challenges for GP surgeries.

Richie McPhillips (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

I thank the Minister for her answer. Can she update us on increasing GP places and how newly qualified GPs will be incentivised to work in rural areas?

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

Recently — I think it was last year — the number of places went up from 65 to 85. There is a recommendation from the GP-led working group that we should look towards raising that number even further, so I am certainly giving consideration to that to make sure that we have the proper workforce and staffing levels to make sure that we have first-class GP services. I will continue to work with the Royal College of General Practitioners and the BMA to address the challenges that are identified by GPs.

Caitriona Ruane (Deputy Speaker, South Down)

Conor Murphy is not in his place.

Cathal Boylan (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

T9. Mr Boylan asked the Minister of Health for an update on the seasonal flu vaccination programme. (AQT 304/16-21)

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

In the North, the annual seasonal flu vaccination programme is delivered through GP practices and school health teams. The vaccine is offered free to those considered to be at most risk of developing serious complications if they are infected with an influenza virus, ie anyone over 65 years old, anyone under 65 with certain medical conditions and all pregnant women. In addition, all preschool children aged two or older can now receive the vaccine via their GPs. The vaccine is also offered to all primary-school children via the school health service. The annual flu vaccination programme is well established and achieves really good rates of uptake.

Cathal Boylan (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

I thank the Minister for her answer so far. What is the duration of the programme?

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

The annual flu programme began on 3 October. It runs from October until the end of March. The vast majority of vaccinations should be completed by early December in advance of when the flu season normally reaches its peak.

Carla Lockhart (DUP, Upper Bann)

T10. Ms Lockhart asked the Minister of Health what her Department is doing to create a strategy to help those with Huntington’s disease, given that a group recently made representations at Stormont. (AQT 305/16-21)

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

I do not have details with me in relation to Huntington's disease, but I am very happy to provide to the Member in writing what strategy we have around that disease. I think it falls into the category of rare diseases. We are working closely with the rare disease group to be able to make sure that we have a proper strategy in place. I think it kicks in by 2020, but I will give the Member more details on Huntington's disease in writing.

Carla Lockhart (DUP, Upper Bann)

I thank the Minister for her answer. I look forward to receiving that information. The concerns raised were very much that this disease normally manifests in children, and you can be a carrier of it. So, a lot of concern was raised about the fact that early testing and —

Caitriona Ruane (Deputy Speaker, South Down)

Does the Member have a question?

Carla Lockhart (DUP, Upper Bann)

— I want just to impress upon you the need for early testing.

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

I take that on board. I did meet the group when it was here in Stormont. I had an opportunity to talk to them, and one of the things that they raised with me was that awareness needed to be raised, because the disease travels through families, so it is important that we do that. It is like everything in health and social care: early intervention and prevention are key.

Caitriona Ruane (Deputy Speaker, South Down)

As the next period of questions does not begin until 2.45 pm, I suggest the House takes its ease until then.