Northern Ireland Assembly, 10 February 2020

359 contributions from 65 members. The official report.

Assembly Business

Alex Maskey (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

Members will have been saddened to learn of the passing of Francie Brolly, a former Assembly Member for the constituency of East Londonderry. I commence our business today by recording the passing of our former colleague Francie Brolly.

Is mór an onóir domh inniu ómós a thabhairt dár gcara Francie Brolly. Gabhaim comhbhrón ó chroí le clann Francie ar a bhás an tseachtain seo caite. It is my honour to pay tribute to Francie, who passed away just last week. Francie was a Member of the Assembly for over six years, being first elected in 2003. Like others, he came to the Chamber after another career in public service, as a teacher in Dungiven. While I pay tribute to him today from the Chair, I had the pleasure of serving on the Benches alongside Francie as a friend and a colleague. I am, therefore, I believe, well placed to say that Francie may have been too much of a free spirit for the formality of the Chamber.

I first met Francie in the confines of Long Kesh in 1972. He was a passionate advocate of rights and a great advocate of his language, which he loved. He loved his Irish traditional music, and he was a poet and songwriter. He loved his sport, particularly the GAA, so it is no surprise that, when he was a Member of the Assembly, he was an ardent member of the Committee for Culture, Arts and Leisure. It is for those interests that many knew him best, and they are reflected through his entire family circle. On behalf of the Assembly, I express our sympathy to his wife, a bhean chéile, Anne, his children Joe, Proinnsias, Conal, Áine, Nodlaig and his 13 grandchildren. Suaimhneas síoraí dá anam uasal.

Members, as we have done in the past on these occasions, I will call a representative of each of the parties to speak for up to three minutes to pay tribute to our late friend and colleague. I will allow around 30 minutes for tributes, and, if there is enough time remaining after all the parties have spoken, I may be able to call other Members who rise in their places to say a few words. The Assembly will now pay its own respects.

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

Francie Brolly was a huge figure in the political life of East Derry for many years, and he will be sorely missed by many people. He was a tireless campaigner for civil and human rights and a committed Irish republican. Francie's republicanism was innate — it was in his very being, in his DNA — and it came out in everything that he did.

Aware of the injustices in life in the North, Francie, like many others, sought to challenge the status quo.

When the civil rights campaign began, Francie got fully behind it as a republican and stood up to fight for rights, equality and democracy. His leadership, determination and commitment shone through, and he was a stalwart at marches and demonstrations at that time.

His republican activism and challenging of the injustices that he saw around him led to his internment in Long Kesh for a period in the early 1970s. In the dark days of the 1980 and 1981 hunger strikes, Francie was to the fore in supporting the campaigns of the prisoners, raising awareness of their demands.

As a teacher for many years, he is fondly remembered by the many hundreds of former pupils who recall his enthusiasm and passion. In recent days, many have paid tribute to him, showing that he will never, ever be forgotten.

A committed republican activist all his life, Francie stepped forward and entered the political fray as an elected representative for Sinn Féin. Elected to the Assembly in 2003, he served on the Culture, Arts and Leisure Committee, reflecting another great passion in his life. A fluent Gaeilgeoir, he was steadfast in his promotion of the Irish language, using it in the Chamber on many occasions.

He established a reputation in the Assembly for his commitment and dedication to his constituents and his native Dungiven, and for the respectful way in which he engaged with Members from other parties. Across the Assembly, Francie was admired and respected for his beliefs.

Aside from politics, Francie also made a huge contribution to the music and cultural world with the songs he recorded and performed alongside his beloved wife, Anne. He was well known across Ireland for his songs, in particular 'The H-block Song', which has become a classic the world over and will live on as a testament to his campaigning, activism and republicanism.

I send my condolences to his widow, Anne, his children Joe, Proinnsias, Conal, Áine and Nodlaig, the entire Brolly family, and everyone who knew Francie. My thoughts are with them at this very sad time. Ar dheis Dé go raibh a anam.

Paul Givan (DUP, Lagan Valley)

I did not have the opportunity to be in the Assembly when Francie Brolly was an MLA. He left at the start of 2010 and I joined later that year, but I did get to know Francie in a different sphere. Francie Brolly, yes, was a committed republican, but he was a committed republican who held, most importantly to him, the words of the 1916 proclamation of independence:

"cherishing all the children of the nation equally".

I got to know Francie and his wife, Anne, through the pro-life movement. Certainly, his passing is a loss to the voice in the republican community advocating the rights of the unborn child. When I spoke to his wife since Francie's passing, Anne reassured me that she intends to continue his work on the issue, which was very important to them.

Francie was an unconventional MLA. In a different capacity, I worked with the then Culture Minister when Francie was on the Committee, and I can recall his saying to the Minister, "I have been handed a list of questions that the folks up in the office want me to ask, which is quite awkward. I do not really want to do that. What can I do to be helpful?" As you said, Mr Speaker, he was a free spirit. He was unconventional, and that certainly marked him out at that time when I was engaged with the then Culture Minister, Edwin Poots.

I offer my condolences to Anne Brolly — 51 years of marriage to Francie — to their five children and their 13 grandchildren.

Robbie Butler (UUP, Lagan Valley)

On behalf of the Ulster Unionist Party, I extend our condolences to the Brolly family, to Anne, the children and the grandchildren. It is interesting to hear about the unconventional nature of Francie, whom I did not have the pleasure of getting to know and working with. On that note, we extend our condolences to the family.

John Dallat (Social Democratic and Labour Party, East Londonderry)

I have been here long enough to remember Francie during his years here. Let me begin by offering the sympathy of the SDLP, and my personal sympathy, to the Brolly family, and especially to his wife, their children and grandchildren. They were inseparable in life. Francie's death is difficult for many people. How much more difficult must it be for the Brolly family?

In the Assembly, I remember Francie as being a gentleman to everyone. I think that I am correct in saying that he did not enjoy the adversarial nature of this place. I know he was glad to return to his native Dungiven to continue the work that he loved: as already mentioned, the Irish language, music and local history, which the Sperrins are rich in. I also acknowledge his strong views on abortion.

While he may not have been the most enthusiastic patron of this place, he did make an important contribution to it. Perhaps that was to show respect for others with quite different political views. Francie also made good speeches. I encourage younger Members to look them up, because they were entertaining and informative and helped us better understand where Francie stood in relation to party politics as we understand it. He was well above the cut and thrust and point-scoring that, in the past, went on far too often. One speech, if I may mention it, Mr Speaker, was on the future of the Post Office. The Speaker of the day interrupted Francie a few times to point out that he had yet to mention the Post Office. On each occasion, Francie reassured the Speaker that he was coming to the Post Office and continued to deliver one of the finest speeches ever made in the Assembly. The last two words spoken were indeed "post office", and everyone was happy. The speech was first class, thought-provoking and entertaining, and Francie was not ruled out of order because it did not focus on the Post Office but on life.

Francie Brolly was indeed a Gael, but his style of Gaelige was all-embracing and about bringing people together to agree or disagree but remain friends and share experiences. He was not a bitter man. He did not harbour grudges and, if he could not do you a good turn, he most certainty would not have done you a bad turn. His contribution to life in his native Dungiven was huge and will live on for many years to come. As the new Assembly beds down, it would be useful to emulate Francie Brolly for his modesty, inside and outside the Chamber. Let us remember him as a Gael whose example threatened no one. He was on an important path and road that I hope we are all now on, respecting and sharing each other's culture and all the things that were important to him and the community that he served for many years as a community representative, councillor and, of course, Member of the Assembly. Mr Speaker, may he rest in peace.

Trevor Lunn (Alliance, Lagan Valley)

I overlapped with Francie Brolly in this place for about three years, I came here in 2007 and he left in 2010, but I got to know him. He was certainly a very committed republican but also a lover of Irish culture and language. He was a teacher of Irish, I believe, and an active member of his church in Dungiven, where I think he lived most of his life. He was also a composer and singer, as others have referenced. Whether or not we agree with the songs that he wrote, you still have to admire the skills involved. Not everybody can write a song; believe me, I have tried, and it does not always work. He was a very humorous man. He was good company and good-natured, but the main thing that I remember about him was his consistent and passionate promotion of the Irish language and Irish-medium education. We had a debate here in 2008 about an Irish-medium school proposal in Derry. I looked it up the other day and will read you a few lines of what he said:

"The name of the Irish-medium school in question, Gaelscoil na Daróige, charms me greatly. Indeed, it is so fitting that, if I were the Minister of Education, I would approve the school even if it had no pupils at all." — [Official Report (Hansard), Bound Volume 32, p92, col 1].

He went on to explain the meaning and derivation of "Daróige", which apparently has to do with the Irish term for a young oak tree. That is fitting for young pupils growing up; little acorns and all the rest of it. That was Francie. As far as I can remember, he was never rude or abrupt with anybody. He had a gentle approach to what he believed in.

I will leave you with one other entry in Hansard that I noticed the other day. He was called to ask a supplementary question, and he got up and said:

"I am going to ask a question now. I am just trying to think of one." — [Official Report (Hansard), Bound Volume 26, p16, col 2].

[Laughter.]

Along with others, I join the House in expressing our sympathy to Anne and the wider family circle. He will be greatly missed.

Caoimhe Archibald (Sinn Féin, East Londonderry)

I wish to add a few words, from a constituency perspective, to what Michelle said and to add the condolences of our party locally. Francie was an MLA for East Derry from 2003 to 2010. He played an important political role in our local area as a rights campaigner and in many other campaigns locally, and he made an important contribution on behalf of the constituency to the Assembly. He was also a personal friend to many of us and will be greatly missed. He was known for his love of Irish language, culture and music, and his legacy there will be long-lasting, not just in Dungiven or County Derry but across Ireland and much further afield. He was a key figure in helping to establish Irish-medium schools in Dungiven and the surrounding area, and we are all very proud of the growth and strength of the Irish language.

On behalf of our activists across East Derry, I send deepest sympathies to Francie's wife, Anne, and to his children, grandchildren and wider family circle.

Martina Anderson (Sinn Féin, Foyle)

In August of last year, at the Belfast Féile, Gerry Kelly and I had the privilege of sharing a platform with Francie, and, whatever one thinks of the songs that he wrote, he sang 'The H-Block Song' so eloquently. I stand on behalf of republicans in Derry to extend our sympathy to Anne and the wider family. I attended the wake. It was a very big funeral as well, and we know that their hearts are very sore, as are the hearts of the republican family, on the loss. Ar dheis Dé go raibh a ana.

Alex Maskey (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

That concludes the tributes to Mr Brolly.

Alex Maskey (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

I advise the House that Mr Raymond McCartney resigned as a Member for the Foyle constituency with effect from 3 February 2020, and I notified the Chief Electoral Officer, in accordance with section 35 of the Northern Ireland Act 1998. I have been informed by the Chief Electoral Officer that Ms Martina Anderson has been returned as a Member for the Foyle constituency. Ms Anderson gave the undertaking, signed the Roll of Membership and entered her designation in the presence of the Speaker and the Clerk/Chief Executive at 10.30 am on 10 February 2020. On behalf of the Assembly, I welcome the new Member and wish her every success.

Alex Maskey (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

Members, I have an additional procedural matter that I wish to address this morning. I will be brief.

I said last week that I was considering my approach to aspects of our business in the House. This week, I will be publishing new Speaker's rulings on Matters of the Day and questions for urgent oral answer. The rulings attempt to set out in more detail, for the benefit of Members, the factors that I will take into account when considering requests submitted to me.

From next week, there will also be a slightly revised application process. The purpose of that will be to provide more information for me, as the Speaker, to understand why Members are seeking to raise the issue and how they think that it meets the criteria in Standing Orders. For Matters of the Day, that means demonstrating that the matter is of exceptional public interest. For questions for urgent oral answer, it means demonstrating not only how a question is of public importance but how it is of an urgent nature and requires being answered that day, as opposed to being answered through any of the other procedural opportunities Members have. The process will allow me to consider better the request alongside the other issues I have to take account of, including the pressure of business in the Chamber on any given day.

It may be worth considering whether our current procedures and criteria are the best way of providing the Assembly with the flexibility to respond briefly to important developments on any given day. Personally, I am attracted to having a short period during which Members have the opportunity to put issues briefly on the record without requiring me to judge them against any particular criteria. Such a change, however, would not just be for me, as the Speaker, to effect but would have to be considered by the Committee on Procedures. I am conscious that the Committee already has a heavy workload in dealing with the issues that could not be progressed during the short 2016 mandate. Reviewing that feature of our business therefore may not be a priority at this point. Therefore, I encourage Members to make use of my new rulings on Matters of the Day and questions for urgent oral answer when they are issued and to seek the guidance of the Business Office before deciding to try to raise an issue under the current procedures.

Alex Maskey (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

As with other similar motions, this will be treated as a business motion. Therefore, there will be no debate.

Resolved:

That Mr Gary Middleton replace Mr George Robinson as a member of the Business Committee. — [Mr K Buchanan.]

Alex Maskey (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

As with other similar motions, this will be treated as a business motion. Therefore, there will be no debate.

Resolved:

That Mr Alan Chambers replace Mr John Stewart as a member of the Committee for Health; and that Mr John Stewart replace Mr Alan Chambers as a member of the Committee for the Economy. — [Mr Butler.]

Executive Committee Business

Alex Maskey (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

Members, take your ease for a moment. We are waiting on the Minister to arrive in the Chamber.

Deirdre Hargey (Sinn Féin, Belfast South)

I beg to move

That the Pension Schemes Act 2015 (Judicial Pensions) (Consequential Provision No. 2) Regulations (Northern Ireland) 2019 be approved.

The rule that we are considering today is somewhat technical, so perhaps it would be helpful if I provide —.

Alex Maskey (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

Will the Minister just resume her seat for a few minutes? There are procedural requirements.

The Business Committee has agreed that there will be no time limit on this debate. I now call on the Minister to open the debate on the motion.

Deirdre Hargey (Sinn Féin, Belfast South)

Thank you, a Cheann Comhairle.

The rule that we are considering today is somewhat technical, so perhaps it would be helpful for me to provide a brief background to the regulations. Historically, fee-paid judges did not have entitlement to a pension, and legislation permitted pensions only for salaried judges. Following the case of O'Brien v Ministry of Justice and subsequent decisions, it is now established law that a lack of a pension and other specified benefits amounted to less-favourable treatment of some fee-paid judicial pension holders in comparison to salaried judges doing the same or broadly similar work. That was a breach of the part-time work directive.

The Department of Justice made the Judicial Pensions Regulations (NI) 2015 under the Public Service Pensions Act (NI) 2014, which are analogues to regulations made by the Ministry of Justice to implement the pension scheme for future service from 1 April 2015. However, it was also necessary to establish a remedy scheme in respect of past pension service from 7 April 2000.

The date of the part-time work directive ought to have been given effect in domestic law. Following a legislative consent motion passed by the Assembly in 2014, the Lord Chancellor proposed to establish a remedy final salary pension scheme for eligible fee-paid judges in Britain and here for service from 7 April 2000 until 31 March 2015. However, before the Lord Chancellor could make the necessary regulations to establish the scheme, a technical consequential amendment was required to section 31 of our Public Service Pensions Act, in line with the corresponding amendment made by the Ministry of Justice to section 30 of the Public Service Pensions Act 2013 for England, Scotland and Wales. The legislative pension, which empowers the Lord Chancellor to establish the scheme, was inserted by the Pensions Act 2015, and the power to make the requisite consequential amendment to the 2014 Act rests with my Department.

In summary, section 31 of the Public Service Pensions Act placed certain restrictions on the operation of public service pensions, subject to an exception for pre-existing pensions schemes. At the time of passing the Act, the need to permit the creation of a new but historical scheme of this nature was not anticipated. The regulations provide that section 31 does not apply to the remedy scheme, and so removes a barrier to the scheme being established. Without the regulations, the remedy scheme would not have applied to affected office holders here, leaving the Departments in breach of the part-time work directive. As I said at the outset, all of this is somewhat technical, but I hope that Members appreciate why the regulations are necessary.

Alex Maskey (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

No Members have indicated that they wish to speak, so I ask the Minister to make a winding-up speech.

Deirdre Hargey (Sinn Féin, Belfast South)

I conclude by saying that the regulations remove a barrier for the implementation of the suitable pension scheme for fee-paid judges, to mirror the pension scheme of salaried judges established by the Judicial Pensions and Retirement Act 1993. I commend the motion to the House.

Question put and agreed to. Resolved:

That the Pension Schemes Act 2015 (Judicial Pensions) (Consequential Provision No. 2) Regulations (Northern Ireland) 2019 be approved.

Alex Maskey (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

I ask Members to take their ease, while we change the Table.

(Mr Principal Deputy Speaker [Mr Stalford] in the Chair)

Private Members' Business

Alex Easton (DUP, North Down)

I beg to move

That this Assembly recognises the invaluable work of service animals used by the PSNI, the Northern Ireland Fire and Rescue Service and the Prison Service; and calls on the Minister of Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs to introduce to Northern Ireland a law, equivalent to Finn’s law, making it an offence to harm or abuse an animal in the line of duty.

Christopher Stalford (DUP, Belfast South)

The Business Committee has agreed to allow up to one hour and 30 minutes for the debate. You will have 10 minutes to propose the motion and 10 minutes to make a winding-up speech. All other Members who are called to speak will have five minutes.

Alex Easton (DUP, North Down)

Finn's law came about after Finn was repeatedly stabbed in the chest and head on 5 October 2016 during an arrest. The injuries suffered by Finn were so severe that he required four hours of life-saving surgery and 11 weeks of recovery. Finn, for those who do not know, is a police Alsatian.

Under Northern Ireland law, there is no specific offence for causing injury to a service animal while they are carrying out their duties. Attacks on police animals happen daily, but very few are pursued through the courts due to the lack of appropriate offences. PD Finn's offender was charged with criminal damage, which is akin to breaking a window or damaging a police radio. In other words, Finn was deemed worthless.

All service animals should be recognised for the vital role that they fulfil. Part of that recognition should be the creation of a specific criminal offence of causing injury to them. The fact that the investment of public funds into specific training and licensing of these animals serves to exclude them from the protection of the current Animal Welfare Act is immoral. Many injuries are not followed through to charges, and fewer still go to court and receive any meaningful sentence.

Finn's law is not radical. Specific criminal offences for attacking or injuring a police animal have been created and are enforced in 10 states in the United States. Similar offences are also enforced in Austria, Germany, Australia, Holland, Switzerland, England and Wales, and Scotland. The flaw in the Animal Welfare Act was identified and considered in Australia when it was creating its animal welfare legislation in 2002. The Australians ensured that the protections that animal welfare legislation offers must apply to their service animals. As a result, they included a specific section to ensure that the defence of fear should not apply to service animals or be treated as property.

The Animal Welfare Bill of 2019 — Finn's law — received Royal Assent on 8 April 2019 at Westminster. The Bill amended the Animal Welfare Act 2006 so that the statutory defence of fear that it contains does not apply to any service animal that has been trained to create intimidation or fear. This includes all service animals. The new Act covers England and Wales but not Northern Ireland, and Scotland has introduced its own laws.

Courageous service animals such as police dogs and horses must be offered greater protection under a new law. The law proposed in the motion would remove a section of the current law of self-defence, which is often used by those who harm service animals. This change, coupled with any plans to increase maximum sentences for animal cruelty offences to five years in prison, will make sure that those who harm service animals are punished accordingly. The campaign in Northern Ireland, which began in April 2018, is to have Finn's law implemented here to also protect our service animals, including police dogs, fire dogs, search and rescue dogs, prison dogs and even guide dogs. The current Animal Welfare Act 2011 must be amended to mirror Finn's law, known as the Animal Welfare (Service Animals) Act 2019.

A petition has reached over 44,000 signatures from across Northern Ireland, and support and backing has come from K9 Search and Rescue, the USPCA, the International Fund for Animal Welfare (IFAW), Assisi Animal Sanctuary, Mid Antrim Animal Sanctuary, Lucy's Trust, Tuk's Law, Almost Home, 7th Heaven, the Barn rescue centre, the Dogs Trust, Battersea Dogs Home, the Kennel Club plus all the smaller animal rescue centres and organisations across Northern Ireland and the UK.

Under the current law, it is unacceptable that, as a result of the training invested in service animals, they are excluded from the protection offered under animal welfare legislation. This is an obvious wrong that needs to be put right. Finn's law in Northern Ireland will lead to tougher punishment for those who attack service animals such as police dogs, and it will mean that service animals will be protected for their bravery. It is immoral that the law does not protect the animals upon which we place so much demand and responsibility. Those animals give their service with such loyalty and dedication to keep us safe, and the very least that we owe them is inclusion under animal welfare legislation.

Attacks do happen in Northern Ireland. The problem is maybe not as severe as it is in the rest of the UK, but that does not mean that we do not protect them should a serious attack happen. Police dogs have been hit with bottles and other missiles, and search and rescue dogs have also been put at risk. Northern Ireland's service animals must have the same protection under Finn's law. I respectfully ask the Minister to give the Assembly a commitment to bring Finn's law into operation for Northern Ireland and bring us in line with the rest of the United Kingdom.

I wish to say thank you to Bernadette Kelly from Northern Ireland Finn's law, who has led the campaign across Northern Ireland for Finn's law to be introduced. She has mostly been on her own as she met and emailed all political parties to lobby for Finn's law.

Finally, the motion is about the welfare of service animals that put themselves at risk in order for us to have a better society. There is nothing political about the motion and I really hope that all Members see fit to support it. It is a chance for the Assembly to show what it can do collectively, together, for the protection of animals and a better place for us all to live.

Linda Dillon (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

I support the motion. Service animals play an invaluable role, as has already been outlined, and should be protected in law from being attacked or abused when carrying out their duties. I am sure that everyone will agree that attacks on these or any other animals are abhorrent. There is no doubt that the loophole in the legislation needs to be addressed, so I call on the Minister to bring forward legislation through his Department to address that and to ensure that these animals are protected in law.

Patsy McGlone (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Mid Ulster)

I begin by thanking the Member for bringing the motion to the Assembly. It is important that, just as we thank those members of the emergency services for the selfless work that they do every day to keep us all safe, we also acknowledge the immense contribution that service animals make. The proposer of the motion has already given us an overview of the background to the Finn's law proposal and the circumstances of the severe attack on a police dog in the line of duty. It struck a chord with me that, in the aftermath of the attack, the only law that could be enforced against the assailant was that of criminal damage.

It cannot be right that we degrade those animals to the status of personal chattels or objects like a phone or car. It demeans the contribution that they make to our emergency services, and does a disservice to the special place that animals hold in the life of the island. We are known across the world as an island that cares deeply for animals. It should be a goal of the Assembly to ensure that we are also known as a society that legislates for the care and protection of animals. My party will support the motion, and we will support efforts by the Justice Minister to legislate for the protection of service animals.

It has also been a long campaign of the SDLP to introduce additional protections for all animals, whether they are engaged in emergency service work or not. I note that the Minister of Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs made specific comments on our proposal to introduce an all-island animal cruelty register at Question Time last week. I wonder whether the Justice Minister — I will put it on the record for her — will also give us her assessment of the need for a central register of those who commit crimes against animals across these islands in order to ensure that they are not able to access rehoming services in the future. I know that a number of animal charities would welcome movement on that particular issue.

It is worth noting, too, that the British Government have signalled their intention to advance beyond the original Finn's law and campaign to increase sentencing for offenders who commit violence against animals, particularly service animals. While we are cautious somewhat about tying the hands of the judiciary when it comes to sentencing, the SDLP recognises that there are circumstances where it is appropriate for the Assembly to intervene when sentencing patterns are seen to be unduly light. I would welcome the Minister of Justice's assessment of current sentencing patterns for those who commit violence against animals and outline whether she has any plans to review that area.

I conclude by thanking again the proposers of the motion and encouraging Members present to support the proposals.

Rosemary Barton (UUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

While the motion, as we have heard, has come about because of Finn's law in England and Wales, as this is a supposed nation of animal lovers it is only right that a motion based on the protection of defenceless service animals be brought before the Assembly. Hopefully, it will lead to much more than an Assembly motion and will lead to legislation being introduced.

In Northern Ireland, many animals, particularly dogs and horses, are attached to services such as the PSNI, army, Fire and Rescue Service and Prison Service, and carry out extremely valuable work while being guided and trained by their handlers. That could be as part of a customs control operation, searching for illicit substances at docks; helping to rescue people from a house fire; crowd control; or assisting with an operation to catch criminals.

Sadly, in the past, many of you will recollect dogs attending the scene of suspect devices with their army handlers. Unfortunately, the devices often turned out to be live devices, with the handlers and their dogs, unfortunately, making the supreme sacrifice. Those service dogs were on the front line and without doubt saved numerous lives.

Such operations and tasks, from being called out to a rescue on a mountainside to tracking suspects, are completed by our service animals daily. Their work is truly outstanding and greatly complements the regular work of the services.

Unfortunately, however, there is a downside to that invaluable work for the animals. Many suffer physical abuse in the line of duty, particularly in the pursuit of suspects. Dogs are all too often kicked, abused and even deliberately stabbed, particularly when they try to apprehend a perpetrator or when a suspect tries to make a bid for freedom.

Finn, who was one of the most successful police dogs in England, was left bleeding and badly injured after a suspect lunged at him with a 10-inch blade. In the event, a charge of criminal damage was brought against the suspect, but that charge treated Finn as if he were a piece of police property. There was no separate penalty that could be imposed on Finn's attacker for the deliberate attack on the animal.

The reason that we have this motion before us is to introduce into Northern Ireland law the equivalent of Finn's law, which would provide, for the first time, proper protection for service animals and an appropriate sentence for offenders.

In conclusion, I call on the Minister of Justice to make specific provision for the welfare of service animals whose mission is clearly to save the people of this country and community while assisting and supporting a service officer. We therefore support the motion, which aims to protect our service animals. People should no longer get away with deliberately injuring or killing those brave animals.

John Blair (Alliance, South Antrim)

I support the motion on behalf of the Alliance Party. I commend those who brought it before the Assembly. I welcome the interest in animal welfare and animal protection. My colleagues and I hope that similar attention is paid and sympathy shown when the House comes to debate other forms of animal cruelty, such as fox hunting and hunting with dogs simply for the kill.

However, this is a welcome endeavour to deal with a serious and outstanding matter of potential animal cruelty. It is appropriate to think about and reflect on the existing Welfare of Animals Act (Northern Ireland) 2011, and subsequent amendments to it. The Act deals, fairly extensively, with the responsibilities of an owner or keeper of an animal, and it also addresses, to some extent, deliberate harm that may be carried out by a third party. It does not, however it seems, deal specifically with animals who are trained and deployed to protect the public. We should never take those animals for granted.

Those public-service animals, and Alex mentioned dogs in particular, play an essential public-service role in ensuring our safety. For example, dogs play a crucial role in drugs and arms searches, assist in public-order control and pursue those suspected of crimes — often wicked crimes — against individuals. It is reasonable that we should expect those animals and the role that they perform for our benefit to be recognised and protected in law. I therefore have no difficulty in supporting the motion and offering the Alliance Party's support for it.

Christopher Stalford (DUP, Belfast South)

Before I call the next Member, Mr Harry Harvey, I remind Members that, as is the convention in the House, maiden speeches are made without interruption.

Harry Harvey (DUP, Strangford)

It is a privilege to stand here to make my first contribution to the proceedings of the House and speak on the motion on abuse of service animals. I am humbled to be carrying on the mandate of my predecessor, Simon Hamilton. I pay tribute to Simon and his contribution in the House, and I wish him well in his new role in Belfast Chamber of Commerce. I desire to carry on his representation in the Strangford constituency by being a strong advocate for all in the community, by working tirelessly for them and by helping bring about a brighter future for everyone in Northern Ireland. I also pay tribute to my late father, Cecil Harvey, who served in the House in the early '70s — interestingly, along with Minister Poots's father, Charlie.

I am pleased to speak in support of the motion. I pay tribute to the many service animals in Northern Ireland and to the public servants who train and handle them professionally and respectfully. These animals are used as sniffer dogs in the detection of drugs, in fire and rescue situations to help find people, and horses are used for crowd control. Finn's law affords service animals protection, but, unfortunately, in Northern Ireland, we do not have that legislation. The introduction of legislation to protect these animals will ensure that those who harm them are punished accordingly. At present, if a service animal is attacked or injured, it is an offence of criminal damage, which equates to throwing a stone and breaking a window. That is unacceptable; it is time for this to change.

Animal cruelty is real, and it happens every day. Physical violence, abuse and death are realities for many animals. For a nation of animal lovers, it seems unfair that we cannot provide the animals with the protection that they deserve. Dogs have been known to save their handlers' lives, and some have died carrying out their duties. Our service animals provide essential support in our community and serve with loyalty and dedication to keep everyone safe. It is unacceptable that the law does not protect them.

Christopher Stalford (DUP, Belfast South)

May I be the first to congratulate the Member on making his maiden speech? As I have said to other Members, to stand up and speak for the first time in the Assembly can be intimidating, but the Member did very well. Congratulations, Harry.

Philip McGuigan (Sinn Féin, North Antrim)

May I be the second person to congratulate the Member on making his maiden speech?

I note the unanimous support, so far, for the motion. The proposer has given the rationale and background to today's motion; he has also outlined the current loophole in the legislation that would see an attack on a service animal classified only as criminal damage. I think everybody agrees that that is unsatisfactory. Cruelty against any animal could not and should not be tolerated and should be punished accordingly. Service animals play a vital role in helping to protect the community. I support the motion in trying to update the legislation to ensure that we offer them the protection that they deserve.

Paul Givan (DUP, Lagan Valley)

I support the motion and commend my colleagues Mr Easton and Ms Cameron for tabling it. It is right that the House recognises the work that is carried out by animals that are in the service of the Prison Service, the Police Service and the Northern Ireland Fire and Rescue Service. I know that some 64 dogs are currently in the employment, one could say, of the Police Service. I am not sure that they get paid the same as a police officer, but they are there and they provide a vital part of the service. When you see them in operation at events, assisting with public order, you see that they certainly add a deterrent value to those who are staring down the barrel at a vicious Alsatian that wants to make sure that you keep your behaviour is kept in check. It is only right that those dogs are given the protection that they need in order to deter the individuals who seek to inflict harm on those service animals.

I know that, in the Prison Service, dogs carry out a vital role, particularly in the detection of drugs. The little waggly tail that goes profusely when visits take place identifies the attempts to smuggle drugs into the prison, and that happens very frequently. How those dogs are detested by prisoners and those on visitation. They are utterly detested because of their effectiveness in doing their job. To the dog, it is just a game and a bit of sport, and they get well rewarded for it, but they carry out a valuable job. In the last five years, two dogs have been injured in prison. One was injured by a snooker ball being thrown at it during public disorder in the prison. It is only right that that dog should be given additional protection within the law and that a prosecution should be brought against the perpetrator who attacked the animal.

Dogs, in particular — when you go through an airport, you see them going up and down the luggage — play a vital role in trying to detect not just drugs but explosives. Those animals need to be given proper protection. I see how dogs are used very successfully in operations, not just in this jurisdiction. I note that President Trump awarded a medal of honour to Conan the dog. That dog was the only part of the special forces Delta team injured in the operation against the Islamic terrorist al-Baghdadi. The dog chased him down a tunnel, where he subsequently detonated his suicide vest. Only Conan was injured in that operation — no other service personnel were injured — so, rightly, the dog was given special recognition by President Trump. That makes us think about the heroism of these dogs.

We are a dog-loving nation. We love our pets. I have a lovely golden retriever. I would not put it on the front line, because it is afraid of its own shadow. We love our animals, and it is only right that we give them the protection that they need. The AERA Minister is, ultimately, responsible for this, not the Minister of Justice. I trust that the Minister of Justice will give her full support to the AERA Minister as he, I hope, confirms the desire to bring legislation to the Assembly. There is not sufficient protection in our law in Northern Ireland. There is greater protection in England and Wales; a Bill is before the Scottish Parliament; but there is no specific offence in Northern Ireland's legislation. I say to the Minister: bring it to the House. I ask that the Minister also look at an issue that I see with Finn's law, in that animals are given protection only when they are under the control of police and prison officers. Outside of that, there is not protection for other dogs that are engaged and used by the voluntary sector. The fire service uses dogs from the voluntary sector; they do not come directly from Northern Ireland Fire and Rescue Service. There is, I think, a loophole, and we need to ensure that our legislation is effective, robust and comprehensively provides the protection that is needed for these vital animals that are carrying out a service for all of us in Northern Ireland. I commend the motion.

John Dallat (Social Democratic and Labour Party, East Londonderry)

I support the previous contributions to the debate in their entirety. I take the opportunity to add that the welfare of service dogs is important not simply when they are on patrol but, indeed, when they are off duty and when they retire.

I remember, in particular and with great fondness, two dogs that served with the fire service. One was called Storm, and the other was called Ben — a springer and a Labrador. As a member of the Public Accounts Committee at the time, I know that a whistle-blower expressed concern that the welfare of the animals was in question. I am happy to accept that, today, there are no issues about the welfare of the animals while off duty. However, I take the opportunity to ask the Minister to ensure that, at all times, service dogs, whether they are with the PSNI, the fire service, customs or whatever, have the highest standards of accommodation and welfare, because we are now the custodians of animal welfare in all its forms. I certainly would not want to be told that animals serving in our Departments had standards of care and welfare that fell below what we would accept.

I have nothing else to say. What I have said is not to imply that there are issues currently, but there were issues in the past that were not addressed. To this day, I remember Storm and Ben and hope that their lives ended much better than I was told.

Christopher Stalford (DUP, Belfast South)

Before I call the Minister, I remind him that he has 15 minutes to respond. I will then call Mrs Pam Cameron to make the winding-up speech.

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

It is good to see so much unanimity around the Chamber on the issue. It is important, and I welcome the fact that it has been brought to the House by Mr Easton and Ms Cameron. I trust that we can develop it very quickly in the lifetime of the Assembly. In reality, we have only two years in this mandate to get things done, and Members will find that that is a very short time. On this issue, I hope that the Assembly can make a mark for the betterment of animal welfare.

Animal welfare falls to the Department of Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs, and we take the issue seriously. The motion calls on me to introduce legislation in Northern Ireland that would offer extra protection to service animals, similar to that which has been afforded to these animals in England and Wales under the Animal Welfare (Service Animals) Act 2019, commonly known as "Finn's law". I appreciate the opportunity to speak to the matter. Some Members may not be aware of that law. For those who are not, it may assist if I set out what Finn's law does. It came into effect in June 2019 when the UK Government amended the Animal Welfare Act 2006 in England and Wales to provide specific protections for service animals that had been attacked when on duty. Under the 2006 Act, it is an offence to inflict "unnecessary suffering" on an animal. In determining whether suffering is unnecessary, a number of considerations are taken into account, including:

"whether the conduct which caused the suffering was for a legitimate purpose"

such as:

"the purpose of protecting a person, property or"

another individual. Prior to the introduction of Finn's law, under the 2006 Act, an individual could claim that they were justified in using physical force against a service animal by arguing that they were acting in self-defence.

Let us talk for a moment about the role of a service animal and where it might be. Mr Givan outlined some of the circumstances. Such animals are often in a prison situation, where they could be searching for drugs. Humans cannot actually deliver that, whereas a dog can, so the effectiveness of a dog is without question. However, prisoner violence can also be without question and, on occasions, when prisoners are involved in riotous situations, a dog is put on the front line. We need to ensure that prisoners know that that animal has additional protections and, unless they want a considerable period added to their sentence, they should not touch that animal. It is a powerful message that we put out in that situation.

On the streets, a dog will confront violent criminals. Once again, violent criminals need to recognise that that dog has protection under the law. Identifying drugs on the streets or in airports is a key role. Service animals have key roles in delivering where human beings cannot.

Jonathan Buckley (DUP, Upper Bann)

Will the Minister give way?

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

That is absolutely critical in the debate. I give way to the Member.

Jonathan Buckley (DUP, Upper Bann)

Thank you, Minister, and, again, I put on record my thanks to the Members for tabling the motion and for the widespread support for better protections for our service animals. The Minister knows that I am an animal enthusiast. Does he share in our thanks for and appreciation of the wide variety of service animals that have played a role in history? I think specifically of the Dickin Medal, which is the Victoria Cross equivalent for service animals. That has been awarded 71 times, and many animals from Northern Ireland have received it.

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

Yes. I know that the Member has a passion for pigeons. I congratulate him on his ingenuity in getting the point in that those service animals were awarded that medal during the Second World War. Of course, it went to the pigeons that carried all of those messages and, indeed, did a fantastic job of getting those messages back home. I congratulate all those involved.

I understand that Finn's law was introduced following three high-profile cases in England where decisions were taken not to prosecute alleged perpetrators under the 2000 Act for the reasons that I mentioned. Finn's law provides that anyone who causes unnecessary suffering to a service animal while it is in the commission of its duties cannot use self-defence as a mitigation. It applies to animals under the control of a police officer or prison officer but not search and rescue dogs and other working animals. Mr Givan has raised that issue, and I will take on board the issue of animals that do not belong to the police or the Prison Service but are provided to key services such as search and rescue; indeed, they provide an invaluable service on that front line. I am also informed that a Bill is before the Scottish Parliament that would provide extra protection for service animals in that jurisdiction.

In Northern Ireland, the welfare of all animals is protected under the Welfare of Animals (Northern Ireland) Act 2011. Under that Act, there is an offence of causing unnecessary suffering to an animal. There are no specific provisions for service dogs, and that means that an individual charged with that offence can argue that they were acting in self-defence and, therefore, were justified in using physical force against a service animal. My Department has been keeping the matter of Finn's law and the position in Scotland under careful review, and some initial steps have been taken to identify the evidence base to take the matter forward.

I recognise the invaluable work of service animals in Northern Ireland, and I assure you that I take the welfare of animals seriously. I am sympathetic to the introduction of extra protection for service animals in Northern Ireland. I can see how being the only jurisdiction in the United Kingdom not to afford that extra protection has the potential to reflect adversely on our reputation as a custodian of animal welfare. Therefore, I will consult the Department of Justice and my ministerial colleague Naomi Long on the issue. Thereafter, I hope to bring forward a public consultation process and, thereafter, bring legislation to the House on the back of and depending on the outcome of the public consultation process. I have little doubt that the outcome will be positive, given the feedback from the House today and our natural instinct to afford good care and welfare to animals. It is not something that goes across one party in the Chamber; it goes across all parties. It not a political issue; it is an issue of what is good and right and what is the right thing to do. Therefore, I wish to pursue that line and start the process of legislation, which involves all the relevant consultations in advance of that.

Pam Cameron (DUP, South Antrim)

First, it is a great pleasure to make the winding-up speech on the debate. I thank all those who took part in the debate. I am also thankful for the level of consensus that we have across the House in supporting the introduction of Finn's law in Northern Ireland.

Anyone who knows me knows that I love animals, especially my dogs. I apologise to those who follow me on Twitter or Facebook, who are subjected to countless photographs of my lovely pups. The thought of anyone being cruel to any animal really pains me, and it is beyond my comprehension how anyone can act in such a fashion. As a legislator, I want to make sure that Northern Ireland leads the way on the protection of animals.

Service animals are all the more deserving of protection. It is a remarkable and sad statistic that more than 100 service animals have been injured since 2012. Whether it be dogs or horses, those brave animals play a vital role in keeping our society safe, and their lives are often at risk of loss or injury in the line of duty. They are in public service and, as such, ought to receive the protection that we, the public, can grant them.

I turn to some of the comments made by Members during the debate. The proposer of the motion, Alex Easton, talked about how Finn was repeatedly stabbed and about how attacks were taking place daily in some parts, few of which are pursued in court. He pointed to the fact that such attacks are not included in the current animal welfare Act and said that that was immoral. He spoke about how laws elsewhere in the world affected service dogs. He referred to the change in the law at Westminster — Finn's law — and talked about offenders could face up to five years' imprisonment under those charges. He also mentioned the petition in Northern Ireland that has been supported by many charities and has received 44,000 signatures. That is fantastic. He talked about how service animals were currently excluded from protection under the animal welfare Act and argued that Northern Ireland's service animals must have that protection.

Linda Dillon was clear in speaking about protection for service animals. She said that the loophole in the legislation must be addressed. Patsy McGlone said that service animals made an immense contribution and that the criminal damage charge demeaned the animals involved. In supporting the motion, he mentioned his party's proposals for an all-island animal cruelty register.

Rosemary Barton supported the motion. She talked about legislation being introduced in the Assembly and the different organisations that are affected. In particular, she mentioned fire and rescue animals and customs control animals, which are maybe not areas that we naturally consider when we think about service animals, so I thank her for that. She also talked about the types of abuse that dogs often suffer, including being kicked and stabbed. John Blair commended those who tabled the motion and said that he hoped that attention to animal cruelty would be focused on other areas, such as sport. He said that public service animals should never be taken for granted.

Harry Harvey made his maiden speech here today, during which he paid tribute to Simon Hamilton and wished him well in his new role at Belfast Chamber of Commerce. He paid tribute to his late father, who served in the House. He spoke about the lack of legislation currently in place in Northern Ireland to deal with this subject. Philip McGuigan said that animal cruelty should not be tolerated, and we can all concur with that.

Paul Givan talked in particular about police service dogs, of which there are 64 in total. He asked how much they were paid, which was interesting. He said that it was only right that those dogs be given protection. He mentioned in particular the valuable role played by service dogs whose wagging tails detect drugs in prisons. He mentioned how one dog had been badly injured by a snooker ball and raised the subject of dogs at airports that do an incredible job of detecting not just drugs but explosives. He said he would not put his golden retriever on the front line, as it was afraid of its own shadow, so we will not be submitting its CV any time soon. He also spoke, on a serious note, of there not being enough protection or a specific offence in Northern Ireland and about how dogs being used in a voluntary environment could be another loophole.

John Dallat supported the motion. He referred to Storm and Ben, dogs with the Fire Service, I think, who were brought to his attention in his time on the Public Accounts Committee, and he spoke of concern for the welfare of those animals.

It was good to see the positive contribution of Minister Poots and his commitment to taking the matter forward with Justice Minister Long to ensure that we have appropriate laws in Northern Ireland for the welfare of service animals. He said that animal welfare fell to his Department. He talked about the Westminster legislation that was brought in in June 2019 and the protections that it gives specifically to animals on duty. He also mentioned the Bill before the Scottish Parliament and said that it should be kept under review. We always have plenty to learn from other jurisdictions, and it is good to look at how these things are managed throughout the rest of the world to get the best practice, so that is welcome. He was sympathetic to the introduction of extra protection for our service animals. He alluded to a public consultation that he would be undertaking and said that he would work with the Minister of Justice on this.

It is nice to have agreement around the House. Sentences must reflect the high regard in which we hold these animals. A slap on the wrist is not enough. I encourage the Minister to do as he has alluded and take forward legislation that reflects this and bring Finn's law to Northern Ireland.

Question put and agreed to. Resolved:

That this Assembly recognises the invaluable work of service animals used by the PSNI, the Northern Ireland Fire and Rescue Service and the Prison Service; and calls on the Minister of Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs to introduce to Northern Ireland a law equivalent to Finn’s law, making it an offence to harm or abuse an animal in the line of duty.

Colm Gildernew (Sinn Féin, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

I beg to move:

That this Assembly recognises the serious emotional distress felt by those experiencing fertility problems in our society; notes that the Department of Health has endorsed the 2013 National Institute for Health and Care Excellence (NICE) clinical guideline on fertility (CG156); commends the efforts of those campaigning for the full implementation of NICE guidance on in vitro fertilisation (IVF); welcomes the commitment within New Decade, New Approach to make three cycles of IVF treatment available on the NHS; and calls on the Minister of Health to implement fully, as a matter of urgency, the NICE guidance on fertility, including making three cycles of IVF available as committed to in New Decade, New Approach.

Christopher Stalford (DUP, Belfast South)

The Business Committee has agreed to allow up to one hour and 30 minutes for the debate. As two amendments have been selected and are published on the Marshalled List, an additional 15 minutes has been added to the total time. The proposer of the motion will have 10 minutes in which to propose and 10 minutes to make a winding-up speech. Before I invite Mr Gildernew to open the debate on the motion, I remind Members that maiden speeches are, by convention, heard without interruption.

Colm Gildernew (Sinn Féin, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

Go raibh maith agat, a Phríomh-LeasCheann Comhairle. I would like to state how proud I am to speak as a representative of Fermanagh and South Tyrone, a historic constituency. I have often reflected on how a parliamentarian from our neighbouring island once referred to:

"the dreary steeples of Fermanagh and Tyrone".

I would like to recalibrate that by saying that I am deeply proud to represent the fantastic people of Fermanagh and South Tyrone. I am proud to represent those from the engineering and economic heartlands and manufacturing bases from Dungannon to Derrylin, from historic and world-renowned Belleek to historic Benburb, and from the magnificent mountains of Cuilcagh to my own beautiful Brantry. I also acknowledge the efforts of my predecessor in the House to represent the constituency, not only because that is well-earned and deeply deserved but because, as many of you will know, I would be in serious difficulty at the home place on Sunday evening if I did not acknowledge it.

I move to the motion. The availability of IVF treatment is an emotive and sensitive matter. It is often a deeply stressful and challenging time for all concerned. There are daily reminders of the problems, and often no way to get away from them; we think of times like Christmas, Father's Day and Mother's Day. People who are desperate to start families do not have access to the IVF treatment that they deserve.

This has been a very long campaign. There have been debates on the matter going back as far as March 2012, when the then Health, Social Services and Public Safety Committee brought a motion to the House. Since then, there have been numerous queries on the issue from a broad range of interested MLAs. In response to a question for written answer, the Health Minister raised not having enough trained staff or the room and space to provide the services. I know that many here will be eager to hear directly from the Minister today on how he plans to overcome these challenges.

The recent paper produced by the British and Irish Governments refers explicitly to the commitment that:

"The Executive will provide ?3 funded cycles of IVF treatment."

I welcome the inclusion of "education and information" in amendment No 2. I believe that that would add positively to the motion and matches the intent and desire to improve health outcomes for all. It is important that we destigmatise and remove any notion that talking about fertility or sex education is wrong.

I also acknowledge the intent behind amendment No 1, which seeks to address a concern relating to current capacity issues and the potential for discrimination against those at the upper end of the age limit. While there may be some concern that this could effectively disadvantage younger people, I accept that it would have merit as a short-term measure. On that basis, we also support amendment No 1.

I now wish to add a few brief remarks as Chair of the Health Committee. On 30 January, the Health Committee was briefed by the permanent secretary and senior officials on health priorities arising from the 'New Decade, New Approach' document. The permanent secretary advised the Committee that, even should resources be made available immediately, the Regional Fertility Centre does not have the capacity to start delivering three cycles of IVF treatment to all eligible women immediately. Further to a question from a Committee member, we then wrote to the Department to follow up on the permanent secretary's commitment to give consideration to whether, in light of the acknowledged limited capacity, the promised three cycles of IVF could be provided outside the North for women close to the age threshold for treatment. The Committee awaits a reply to this query with interest.

Christopher Stalford (DUP, Belfast South)

I congratulate the Member on having made his maiden speech. Having served on the Communities Committee under the chairmanship of his sister, I can assure him that he would have been in diffs had the praise not been fulsome, so congratulations.

Mark Durkan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

I beg to move amendment No 1:

Insert after "urgency": "and with immediate effect for women aged 35 years and up to threshold age of 40,"

Christopher Stalford (DUP, Belfast South)

You will have 10 minutes to propose amendment No 1 and five minutes to make a winding-up speech. .

Mark Durkan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

I support the motion. The proposer of the motion outlined quite clearly the rationale behind the motion, and I commend those who have brought this very sensitive, emotive and important issue to the House. I had tabled a very similar motion near the end of the last Assembly mandate. Sadly, it never made it to this stage due to the collapse of the Assembly, and we cannot avoid or deny the fact that progress on making three cycles of IVF treatment available on the NHS, as per the NICE guidelines, has been prevented and slowed down immeasurably due to the fact that we have not been here for three years, but we are here now.

In the meantime, though, I do not believe it is an exaggeration to say that couples and, in some cases, individuals have spent hundreds of thousands of pounds collectively and travelled very far and wide to access treatment and to maximise their chances of conception and of having a baby whom they so badly want and to whom they have so much love to give. People have got into debt through borrowing money, remortgaging their homes and putting themselves under massive financial pressure. As Colm Gildernew said, it is not only financial pressure that people are under; this whole process puts pressure on relationships, as partners blame themselves and sometimes blame each other. Many people who have been or are going through this treatment under the current process have relayed to me their feeling of failure and incompleteness. The detrimental impact of all this stress on people's mental health cannot be measured but it certainly must not be understated.

In the three years that we have not had an Assembly, however, a lot of work has been done on the issue. I commend, as the motion does, those organisations that have worked so hard to keep this issue on our agenda, to keep it in the public domain and to ensure political support for if and when we were going to get up and running again. I also commend the work that they have done to support people. They are there for people: to advise them, to direct them, to encourage them and to console them. They are there for people at the worst of times, and I have seen that in my constituency. I pay particular tribute, as I am sure Karen Mullan will later, to Fairness (IN) Fertility, which operates in Derry. They have been there at the worst of times, and they are also there at the best of times to celebrate the great news stories that come out of treatment when people are fortunate enough that the stars align in their favour. Fair play to those organisations.

It is my understanding — maybe the Minister will be in a position to clarify this — that, a number of years ago, perhaps in 2016, there had been a planned pilot scheme to move to two funded cycles of IVF treatment. I was not able to find any of that in the information pack, but it is my understanding that that was the case and that it just disappeared from view. I do not know who made that decision, how that decision was made, and I certainly do not know why that decision was made. That would not have gone as far as the three cycles, which is where we want to go as per the guidelines, but it would have certainly been a step in the right direction.

I am pleased to hear that Sinn Féin will support our amendment, which focuses on women who are approaching the upper threshold of 40. It is a short-term measure that we see this prioritisation taking place. Given the contents of the New Decade, New Approach deal, people have had their hopes raised. These are people who have been frustrated for a long, long time, given the nature of what they are dealing with. They have now had their hopes raised, and it is important that we meet those hopes with action, as an Assembly and as an Executive. While the motion will understandably call on the Minister of Health to progress this and to ensure that what is promised in that agreement is implemented, there is definitely a collective responsibility on the Executive to do that. If the Minister of Health, in this case, comes forward looking for financial assistance from Executive colleagues in order to ensure the delivery of pledges and promises made in that agreement, the parties — which I hope will all support this motion and speak in favour of it today — their colleagues around the Executive table will, hopefully, back any ministerial request.

We have seen it already: New Decade, New Approach promised that the pay parity issue would be resolved. Although we are delighted that it was — at a much bigger financial cost than this, albeit extremely worthy — the First Minister and deputy First Minister and the Finance Minister were all glad to make that announcement alongside the Health Minister. I do not care who makes the announcement or how it is made, and nor will the people out there either, as long as it is made and we fulfil the promises made in that agreement and give them a chance to fulfil their dreams.

I welcome the stated support from the proposers for our amendment. I commend the motion and amendment No 1 to the House. We have no issue with amendment No 2 either; it is in no way contradictory to ours, and it also adds to the motion.

Pam Cameron (DUP, South Antrim)

I beg to move amendment No 2:

At end insert: ", and to implement a fertility education and information programme similar to the Scottish Government’s Your Future Fertility programme."

Christopher Stalford (DUP, Belfast South)

You will have 10 minutes in which to propose amendment No 2 and five minutes in which to make a winding-up speech. All other Members who are called to speak will have five minutes.

Pam Cameron (DUP, South Antrim)

Members will note that this amendment in no way alters the main objective of the motion. Indeed, we welcome the motion before the House today and fully support it. I thank Karen Mullan and Colm Gildernew for bringing it to the House. We also welcome amendment No 1 from Mark Durkan and Sinéad Bradley. We recognise the great time pressure for those who are close to the age-40 threshold. I also welcome the fact that that is intended to be a short-term measure.

Our amendment approaches the issue in a more holistic way. I will elaborate further on that rationale later in my remarks. For those of us who have children, there is certainly no greater moment in life than when you carry a child inside you or you hold your baby in your arms for the first time. I count myself incredibly blessed to have three amazing children.

As we look back on our youth, I am sure that many of us recollect saying things like, "When I have children", or discussing with friends how many children we would like to have. At that stage in life, it all seems so simple, as if it is a right and is one of those things that just happens. For many, however, the reality of parenthood does not come that easily, and, for some, it never comes at all. I know many who have been through the struggle. To say that they have come through the struggle is not right; it remains a case of coping with it each and every day. Like all battles, some cope better than others as the heartbreak of not having the family you always dreamed of becomes the daily reality.

We know that infertility is a taboo subject. In many ways, that is why our amendment adds something really valuable to the motion. Awareness can be an incredibly powerful tool that can inform our choices early in life, which can help to keep us healthy and, hopefully, fertile. In reality, we probably concentrate more on reducing unwanted pregnancies, especially in our teens and 20s, and do not necessarily consider all the potential impact of our day-to-day living and how that can impact on our future.

I am conscious that some Members may not be aware of the nature of the Your Future Fertility programme in Scotland. I put on record my thanks to Hilary Knight from Fertility UK for briefing me on the topic. I am sure that my colleagues on the Health Committee will hear more from that charitable organisation, which supports those on their fertility journey. That organisation, like many, does terrific work. It is vital that it be funded to continue that work.

At a high level, the aims of the Your Future Fertility education project are: to provide fertility information and education in universities, to GPs and in the workplace to ensure that people are better informed on all aspects of fertility, including information on how to take care of their fertility and information on how and when it declines; to raise awareness among young people at university of fertility issues and to educate them about the issues that can impact on fertility, such as sexually transmitted diseases and lifestyle choices; to reduce the incidence of fertility problems through improved sexual health and lifestyle outcomes; and to alleviate the effect on those already affected by the illness through providing information, self-help and support at information events throughout Scotland.

When we look at the experience of Scotland since it rolled out the programme, we see that the outcomes have been wholly positive. We lack the specific education provision in Northern Ireland, and many of those in the medical field who deal with fertility issues, mental health and other health provision are supportive of the programme being implemented in Northern Ireland.

The following are quotations from Northern Ireland health professionals regarding Your Future Fertility. Dr Ishola Agbaje is a subspecialist in reproductive care at the NHS Regional Fertility Centre in Belfast. He says:

"Fertility Network's Your Future Fertility project is an essential public health programme and a real opportunity to educate young people on the impact of lifestyle factors and on their future fertility. There is a lack of knowledge regarding the potential negative effects of factors such as age, STIs, obesity, smoking and anabolic steroids on fertility and an overestimation of the success of treatments such as IVF. Educational initiatives like this have the potential to make a much greater impact on individuals' fertility health and their choices than treatments alone and should be commended."

Then we had Martha Campbell, family therapy lead and assistant children's service manager for the Family Trauma Centre and the eating disorder youth service, which is part of Belfast child and adolescent mental health services (CAMHS). She is quoted as saying:

"I believe this will be one of the most important areas of development in adult mental health, as we see increasing numbers of couples and women seeking support in relation to fertility in the future. The emphasis should be placed on early intervention and education in order to support them in their future choices. We in CAMHS would welcome any partnership and support you could offer us in the future years. I look forward to hearing from you and working together as your project develops."

Then we had Dr Ursula Brennan, Mount Oriel medical practice, Belfast, who is quoted as saying:

"Fertility Network's Your Future Fertility project has supported the general practice community to support, educate and influence young people on health issues which will impact on their future fertility. As a GP working in Belfast, I have been aware of the gap in education and learning opportunities for primary healthcare professionals in the area of fertility medicine. It is exciting to learn that this project raised both student and professional clinicians' awareness of fertility issues, including the emotional impact. In the current environment of healthcare redesign and transformation, I am confident that investing in fertility health-related issues will have a positive impact now and in the future."

In recent days, some Members have been accused of not listening to professionals as we attempt to deliver better outcomes for our constituents. Those are the words of professionals that I have quoted, and they state a better case than I can for the programme to be introduced. I hope that the House agrees.

We fully support the aims and objectives of the substantive motion and congratulate the Members who tabled it. The 'New Decade, New Approach' document deals with a vast range of issues, some of which matter to all people and others to specific interest groups. Like many, I was delighted that the document commits the NI Executive to providing three full cycles of IVF. For too long, we in Northern Ireland have failed those on that journey. Across the rest of the UK, huge inconsistencies in provision remain. I firmly believe that there is a moral duty on the Government to fund full cycles of treatment fully and not to leave patients with sometimes huge private bills as a result of funding themselves in order to complete a cycle of treatment. It is wholly appropriate that NICE guidelines be adopted entirely and as soon as possible.

There is undoubtedly work for the Minister to do on the delivery mechanism and on how we meet the demands of that commitment. We know that the capacity of the current provision at the RVH is an issue, and the financial aspect is another consideration, but I ask this: what price is a life? We must also explore whether partnerships are needed with the private sector to ensure swift implementation of this commitment.

Last week in the Chamber, I moved a motion to introduce mandatory autism training for teachers, and that united the House. It was motivated by a desire to help those who need help, and I am glad that, once again, the focus of the House is not on tribal issues but that we are seeking to help those who need help. This is why devolution matters. This is what we can do when we unite and work together, and I commend the motion and the amendment to the House.

Alan Chambers (UUP, North Down)

For far too long, women in Northern Ireland have faced discrimination in the provision of IVF treatment. The NICE guidance clearly states that a woman should be offered up to three cycles of IVF. It does that for very good clinical reasons. It is just a reality that IVF is not always successful the first time round. The success rates vary with the age of the woman, and, for many women, there is usually a 20% success rate after one cycle of IVF treatment. That means that, for every five women and couples that place so much hope on a one-off procedure, four will not get pregnant after one cycle. That is the heartbreaking reality of fertility treatment.

It is an injustice that the Ulster Unionist Party has long felt needed to be addressed. That is why this party secured the inclusion of this matter in the 'New Decade, New Approach' document. On 3 January, almost a week before the final document was published, the Ulster Unionist Party submitted the request to the Northern Ireland Office and the local Department of Finance, and we were delighted to see it in the final document. Whilst it is positive to see cross-party support in the Chamber today for the policy, regrettably the reality is that both Sinn Féin and the DUP previously had the opportunity to move Northern Ireland to three cycles but chose not to make a public commitment.

Of course, the reality is that it will require additional funding, however this is something that the Health Minister is likely already pursuing with the Finance Minister. I am confident that the Minister from the party that secured the commitment, the current Health Minister, will be dedicated to trying to make the key progress. That having been said, a lot of words of support have come from all the parties in the Executive towards addressing the many problems and pressing issues that are faced by the health service in Northern Ireland. I know that my colleague Minister Robin Swann will be working hard to solve all these issues in a timely fashion. However, his job will be much more difficult if the required resources are not made available to him. I have said that there have been many words of support around repairing our health service from other parties in the Executive, but these words must be translated into action. I know that Minister Swann is totally committed to delivering what is required, however he must receive the budget required to enable this delivery.

The provision of this treatment being debated today may not seem relevant to those on lengthy waiting lists for surgery and other treatments, but it is a declaration of hope for people experiencing difficulty in trying to start a family. I am confident that the discrimination towards parents in Northern Ireland in relation to fertility treatment will be addressed by the Department from today, but that hope will only materialise if the Minister is allocated the budget and resources that he will undoubtedly need to honour this heartfelt cry for help and hope. It should be no surprise to the House that the Ulster Unionist Party supports this motion and both amendments.

Paula Bradshaw (Alliance, Belfast South)

I will say only a few words today, but I want to place on record that we support the motion and both amendments. I commend Sinn Féin, the SDLP and the DUP for tabling the motion and the two amendments. I think that, in the round, it makes for a good debate here this afternoon.

The Alliance Party very much welcomed the commitment in the 'New Decade, New Approach' document, not just for the very practical aspect of it but because it provides an opportunity for the issue of infertility and difficulties with conceiving to be debated in a public forum. We have to work towards removing the taboo that women feel and face when they cannot have children.

I also commend the individuals and groups who have campaigned for many years to secure multiple cycles. I refer also to HERe NI — people will know that it is a voluntary organisation that works with lesbians and their families — and its campaign to encourage access to IVF treatment for same-sex couples.

I have friends who paid for IVF treatment out of their own household funds. I know that that puts considerable strain on an already very difficult situation. If we went back 10 years, I am sure that my friends would be absolutely thrilled to be given this opportunity.

My party very much supports amendment No 1. I became a mother at age 27, but I had friends who were giving birth right up until their early 40s. That is part of the growing trend, whereby women are empowered to make decisions, as and when it suits them, based on their family circumstances, professional careers and other factors. The fact is that women are living longer and healthier lives, so it is right and proper that the proposal and programme that comes forward should reflect the NICE guidelines on access into those later years.

Amendment No 2, on the education and information programme similar to the Your Future Fertility programme, is a wonderful proposal, and I very much support it. It feeds very much into the need to empower young women to deal with all matters that relate to their sexual and reproductive health.

Like Colm and other Members who have contributed to the debate, I am conscious of what we have been told at the Health Committee; that, while the Health Department is very much in favour of this as a commitment, the train may come off the tracks if the budget, resources and workforce are not there to deliver it. Like others, I very much look forward to hearing what the Minister has to say. I commend the motion to the House.

Alex Easton (DUP, North Down)

Fewer IVF treatments take place in Northern Ireland than anywhere in Britain. In Northern Ireland, women underwent 1,498 cycles, compared with London, the area with the highest number, where women received 16,649 cycles of treatment during 2014. In Britain, a quarter of a million babies have been born as a result of IVF.

In Northern Ireland, publicly funded IVF fertility treatment began in 2001, when the then Minister of Health announced the intention to consult on the provision of fertility services and introduced criteria for treatment in the interim. The consultation began in 2003, and, in 2006, revised criteria that widened access to treatment were introduced. A second review was held in 2008 in response to an Assembly motion calling on the Department to review the criteria that were used to assess eligibility, the ongoing problem with waiting lists and the number of IVF treatments that were available on the NHS, with a view to establishing a more equitable policy. As a result, a regional waiting list for fertility treatment was created from 2009.

In Northern Ireland, responsibility for the commissioning of fertility services lies with the Health and Social Care Board. While the Department endorsed the NICE guidelines, in practice, treatment is limited to one fresh and one frozen embryo transfer. The following criteria apply: there must be a medical cause of infertility, the female patient must be under 40 years of age when starting treatment, and the female patient should have had no more than three previous unsuccessful treatments. Only patients who are referred to the Regional Fertility Centre after 1 April 2012 are eligible. There are no restrictions on the status of the couple, the age of the man, or the dependent children. Women must be no older than 39 for treatment with donor eggs. The provision of one fresh and one frozen embryo transfer falls short of a full cycle as defined by the NICE guidelines. Storage costs for frozen embryos are publicly funded only for two years after treatment, after which they must be paid for privately.

The former Health Minister acknowledged that the service in Northern Ireland fell short of the NICE guidelines due to the significant cost implications and other ongoing budget pressures but advised that the Department would consider options for further service provision and examine all practical options for improving the service currently offered.

Across Northern Ireland, one in seven people experience difficulty having children. Greater access to IVF is important. I want to see wider access to IVF treatment on the NHS, with an increase in entitlement to the three full cycles, as is the case in Scotland. Our people need to be supported and educated on the process. Support services are essential to ensure people are assisted at every step of their journey. There is a commitment to provide three full cycles of IVF treatment in 'New Decade, New Approach'.

I support the motion and my colleagues' amendment.

Christopher Stalford (DUP, Belfast South)

The next Member to speak is Jemma Dolan. As this is a maiden speech, it will be heard without interruption.

Jemma Dolan (Sinn Féin, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

It is an honour to be here representing the people of Fermanagh and South Tyrone and to take part in a debate of such importance.

As this is my maiden speech, please allow me to digress a little. I am from a lovely border village called Belleek in County Fermanagh, which is 112 miles away from Parliament Buildings. If I wanted to come here on public transport, it would take three bus journeys. It is actually quicker to go to Galway. I am a proud Belleek woman and a proud Fermanagh woman. I would not change it for the world. I hope to provide representation for my constituents that also makes them proud.

The reason I agreed to stand as a candidate in the 2017 Assembly election was that I felt that there were not enough women's voices in the Assembly. On top of that, there were not enough young women's voices in the Chamber, and, in particular, there were not enough young rural women's voices being heard. This is an issue that affects many women, including women and couples in my constituency. In October 2018, I attended a Fairness in Fertility event in the Long Gallery. It remains one of the most powerful and eye-opening events I have attended. One quote stuck with me: "There is one thing more painful than having a baby, and that is not having a baby".

It is said that about one in six males and females suffer from fertility problems of some kind. With numbers like that, it is a common problem and has been recognised by the World Health Organization as a disease. It defines infertility as an "impairment of function" and a "disease of the reproductive system". Infertility is a medical condition, and, as with any other medical condition, it deserves treatment. The importance of funding fertility treatment is also highlighted by the well-recognised and devastating psychological impact that the disease can have. Infertility can lead to stress, anxiety, clinical depression and the breakdown of relationships. It is, therefore, important that service provision should be focused not only on the clinical cycle but on holistic care for the individual seeking treatment. As part of the wider need to address the issue of parity of esteem for mental health, we must take account of the challenges and pressure of undergoing fertility treatment. A range of fertility counselling services is based in Heron Road in Belfast, but, by all accounts, it is limited in its scope, and the opportunity for outreach to parts of the North is limited and often relies on telephone cover. That is not acceptable and is a poor reflection of a regional service.

The former Health Minister acknowledged that the service here falls short of NICE guidelines, which, as far back as 2004, has been recommending that three funded cycles be made available. For me, as a 29-year-old woman, the fact that women aged between 23 and 35 have just a 20% success rate after one cycle hits close to home. However, there is a 60% better success rate if three cycles are completed.

Infertility cruelly removes the choice of having children. Some couples end up spending their life savings trying to complete their family, and some put themselves into serious debt in order to achieve their dream. Adopting NICE guidance will also go some way to improving access for same-sex couples to an important and life-changing service. For many, there will be an urgency in addressing the capacity and staffing issues as the age limit of 40 approaches. I am keen to hear how the Minister will ensure that all those involved can access a full three rounds of treatment in a timely manner. I appeal to the Minister to implement NICE guidance without delay and attempt to give thousands of couples across the North the greatest gift of all.

Christopher Stalford (DUP, Belfast South)

This is becoming a bit of a routine for me, but I congratulate the Member on her maiden speech. I wish her all the best as she represents the people of Fermanagh and South Tyrone.

Sinéad Bradley (Social Democratic and Labour Party, South Down)

I support the motion and thank my colleagues for tabling it. I warmly welcome the fact that we are debating it, because it is, for many, a critical issue. There are few issues in life more important than starting a family and few decisions bigger. I am delighted to speak as the SDLP's health spokesperson on the issue. The expansion of IVF provision in line with NICE guidelines has been a key priority for the SDLP and a recent manifesto commitment. It is one that our negotiators, like others, continued to stress as part of the talks process.

There is no doubt that this will make a tangible difference in the lives of families across the North, one in seven of whom have difficulty conceiving. That is a staggering figure. It is a reality that we talk about mental health and lots of issues here, and this goes deep to that issue. The longing to have a child and the need for support should never be overlooked in the House. Many people have got themselves into huge financial difficulties trying to fund IVF. The private market has the emotional draw for that group of people who have not been able to get IVF through the health service. People have gone to great lengths to have access to IVF to settle that inward question of whether they can be a mother, a father or a parent, often at great financial cost to themselves. It seems unfair that some people can be ruled out of being a parent due to finances.

It is only right that access to IVF is expanded to three cycles. Our friends in Scotland have shown us that it is not a huge cost to the public purse; it is relatively small. I warmly welcome the inclusion of the IVF provision expansion in 'New Decade, New Approach'. It speaks to the fact that many here are supportive of the issue, and I support Minister Swann in going forward on it. However, we must be realistic. During the recent meeting of the Health Committee, the permanent secretary outlined the commitment to making the three-cycle provision available, but Mr Pengelly also very honestly said that there was severe limitation in resource around the issue. He cited workforce and the infrastructure that is required. That means that, while there is an aim to deliver the expansion of IVF, it cannot be delivered in the immediate term and we may be looking at a time delay. That gives reason to the amendment that the SDLP has tabled. Unfortunately, Mother Nature waits for nobody, and there are sound clinical reasons why women of a certain age group should have immediate access to the service. I recognise that that will put difficulty on resources, but we should be mindful of those women, because IVF is important to all women and potential mothers and fathers who are accessing it.

Dolores Kelly (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Upper Bann)

I thank the Member for giving way. Does she agree that the stress and anxiety lead to poor mental health among those who are waiting to be able to be a parent and therefore that should also be taken into account?

Sinéad Bradley (Social Democratic and Labour Party, South Down)

Absolutely, I concur with that.

Christopher Stalford (DUP, Belfast South)

The Member has an additional minute.

Sinéad Bradley (Social Democratic and Labour Party, South Down)

We also have to realise that it is private and personal issue and not many people may feel able to talk openly about it. Whilst good advice regarding mental health is always to share and, I suppose, halve your problem by sharing, that is sometimes not easy to do on these very personal issues. I absolutely take the Member's point.

The reason behind the amendment for women in that age threshold is important, but it is worth citing that, whilst the age of 40 has been mentioned, there are clinical conditions under which women up to the age of 42 are considered for IVF treatment, but it is my understanding that those women will be undertaking it for the first time. Therefore, getting into a dialogue about providing three cycles for those up to the age of 42 is probably for a different debate, as we really have to be mindful that a lot of the work, such as the stimulation of ovaries, can go ahead of the actual IVF treatment. I understand that that process can take a significant number of weeks. The woman also needs a break between cycles. We have to take clinicians' best advice on that.

I welcome the motion and both amendments. I encourage everybody in the House to support them all.

Christopher Stalford (DUP, Belfast South)

Members, according to my mobile phone sitting in front of me, it is now 13:56. Question Time is due to start at 2.00 pm, so I suggest that the House take its ease until then. The debate will continue after Question Time, when the next Member to speak will be Ms Kellie Armstrong.

The debate stood suspended.

(Mr Speaker in the Chair)

Oral Answers to Questions — Education

Alex Maskey (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

We are about to start with the listed questions.

John Stewart (UUP, East Antrim)

1. Mr Stewart asked the Minister of Education for an update on a new build for Carrickfergus Academy. (AQO 58/17-22)

Peter Weir (DUP, Strangford)

The Education Authority has submitted an application on behalf of Carrickfergus Academy under the recent call for major capital works. That call was issued in September 2019, and it closed on 31 October 2019. This was a Northern Ireland-wide call. All applications submitted under this call are currently being considered by officials and applications which meet the eligibility criteria will be scored in accordance with the published protocol.

As this is a live and, ultimately, competitive process between schools, it would not be appropriate for me to comment further on a new build for Carrickfergus Academy at this time. However, it is likely that a major capital announcement of schemes to advance in planning will be made in the forthcoming months.

John Stewart (UUP, East Antrim)

I thank the Minister for his response. I appreciate that there is an ongoing process. The Minister understands that the former schools of both Downshire and Carrickfergus College were assured when the concept of the merger was being discussed that they would be prioritised, and that was one of the concepts for which they undertook the merger.

I look forward to hearing the outcomes. The parents, the pupils, the governors and the staff of Carrickfergus Academy are very eager to see this happen. I ask the Minister to do all he can to make sure that that comes forward.

Peter Weir (DUP, Strangford)

I am always keen to help facilitate capital build where I can, and there is a good record of having a flow of projects. Particularly with mergers, there has to be a realisation, as we move forward, that a level of priority is given where mergers are taking place or where there is a scheme that aids area planning. If we are to create a joined-up approach in capital build, then fuelling or giving priority to area planning is going to be a critical element.

In this particular case, the Member may be aware that the call that was issued and the criteria that were used for the major capital project preceded the restoration of the Assembly. When the officials are scoring and judging, they have to bear in mind the criteria that were there at that particular point. We cannot retrofit criteria. It is important that schools that get past the gateway check of eligibility criteria are judged and ranked on that. The scoring criteria need to be applied fairly. I will not seek to interfere in any way with those criteria. Hopefully, when we make the major capital announcement, there will be good news for a range of places. I am aware of the good work that has been going on in Carrickfergus to help facilitate that.

David Hilditch (DUP, East Antrim)

Having been part of the consultation process, along with other stakeholders, parents, teachers etc I know that a number of commitments were given by the Department. When does the Minister intend to give an updated position, or can the Minister guarantee that the needs of Carrickfergus Academy will be met in the meantime?

Peter Weir (DUP, Strangford)

As indicated, I hope to make a major capital announcement in the next few months. There is a wee bit more flexibility in capital, as opposed to resource, because clearly the budget for next year has not been set. Capital projects tend to be multi-year by nature, and there can be flexibility of flow between those years. I hope to make an overall major announcement in connection with all the applications relatively soon.

Clearly, irrespective of whether a green light is given to a new capital build for Carrickfergus, that does not negate applications for minor works. As such, over the last three years, about £74,000 has been spent directly on minor works on the junior and senior campus sites. A further eight possible schemes for minor works are currently being assessed. Under the last minor works, a total of 16 applications were set down by Carrickfergus College and Downshire between them. As I have said, there is work ongoing in relation to that. Therefore, there is a realisation that, even when we see particularly successful schools, there is also going to be a certain bridging period, as regards minor works, because, as with any capital announcement, by necessity, even if it is successful, it will take a number of years to happen. We have to ensure that, as much as possible — and within the constraints of budgets — all children, be they in Carrickfergus or, indeed, anywhere else in Northern Ireland, are given the best possible conditions to study during that period.

Paula Bradshaw (Alliance, Belfast South)

Does the Minister agree that all-ability amalgamated schools like Carrickfergus Academy deserve the same high-quality facilities as any other school? How will he deal with the financial pressures in his Department to ensure that there is capital investment across the Province?

Peter Weir (DUP, Strangford)

First, all schools, irrespective of the sector that they belong to and wherever the pupils are driven from, need to treated equally and given a fair opportunity. As I indicated, cases that are driven by area planning and the area-planning solution need to be given a level of prioritisation as we move ahead.

On the budget, there is, as I said, a slightly blank position, as we do not know what next year's budget will be. However, where there is some flexibility, unlike with some of the pressures that have been identified in the resource budget, there is an opportunity. For instance, if an announcement was made about a particular school today, it may be some years down the line before bricks and mortar are put on-site. There is a bit of flexibility about exactly when things happen and in fitting them around the budget.

Unless something falls out of the sky that limits opportunity, I commit that, if I am in post and make an announcement about a capital build, I will make sure that it happens. The only issue will be the timing. I will not give false hope to particular schools. It is important that schools that are involved in capital builds, whether major capital works, SEP or specific minor works, can move forward with confidence, not uncertainty.

Gordon Dunne (DUP, North Down)

2. Mr Dunne asked the Minister of Education to outline his Department's plans to provide additional accommodation and improved facilities at Clifton School, Bangor. (AQO 59/17-22)

Peter Weir (DUP, Strangford)

I thank the Member for his question. He and other Members have been very assiduous in pushing on a number of the schools that will be mentioned today.

The Education Authority submitted an application under the second call to the school enhancement programme on behalf of Clifton School. It was one of the schools that passed what is called the gateway check, so it is eligible. At that stage, 165 SEP applications had been made, across the board. To date, the school has not been announced to advance in planning; however, it remains on the prioritised special schools list. I should highlight that the SEP schools list was broken down into three categories: mainstream primary schools; post-primary schools; and special educational needs schools. Those prioritised lists will remain live until May 2020, and there is, therefore, the potential for a further, final announcement before the list closes.

The Education Authority will continue to undertake statutory capital works at the school through the minor works programme, so it is not simply an issue of whether it gets SEP funding. To alleviate the immediate accommodation pressure, the EA recently converted an unused home economics classroom into a general classroom. The EA will also carry out a survey and inventory of the existing school meals accommodation to inform an assessment for a potential refurbishment of that area.

Gordon Dunne (DUP, North Down)

I thank the Minister for his answer. He will be fully aware of the challenges that Clifton School has faced in recent years, with increased numbers and a real need for additional accommodation. The school was originally built for 120 children and now over 170 pupils are enrolled. I understand that, as the Minister said, the school has submitted an application for the school enhancement programme. Will that application in any way hinder the minor works programmes that are planned?

Peter Weir (DUP, Strangford)

There is a divergence between schools that apply for the SEP and those that apply for a major capital new build. As such, it is one of the two routes that schools can take. The minor works necessary in the school will have already been assessed as part of the SEP application. If, for instance, minor works — I mentioned a couple of those already — are undertaken at the school, that will in no way disadvantage the school as regards the school enhancement programme at present. It will be judged according to where it is on the list.

I am aware that the Member has been assiduous in pressing the issue, and I hope to be able to visit Clifton School in the near future. I am sure that they will all look forward to that.

Alan Chambers (UUP, North Down)

Clifton School is a relatively new build. Did the Department underestimate the school's accommodation needs when the original plans were submitted?

Peter Weir (DUP, Strangford)

I am not privy to what the original plans were. There have been various changes in special needs education over the years, particularly in school numbers. While there has been a desire to have as many special needs children as possible in mainstream education, one of the very positive things that we have seen is a better diagnosis of special needs. Also, as the years have gone by, many more children with special needs have been able to be involved in education.

Some children, such as those who go to Clifton School, for instance, are at the high end of special needs dependency. When we look back many years, some of those children, sadly, would not even survive to the age they are today. We should all be thankful for that progress. The increase in identification, however, has led to an increase in numbers, and the school estate has to keep pace with that. While Clifton School is, historically speaking, one of the more recently built special educational needs schools, it is the case that, in terms of the priority list, there are a number of schools in Belfast whose accommodation needs date back many years.

The important thing, as we move ahead on special needs, is that, as much as possible, for those particularly vulnerable children, we provide the best possible facilities that we can. All of us would share in that goal.

William Irwin (DUP, Newry and Armagh)

3. Mr Irwin asked the Minister of Education to outline the capital development plans for Hardy Memorial Primary School. (AQO 60/17-22)

Peter Weir (DUP, Strangford)

I thank the Member for his question. Hardy Memorial Primary School is not currently listed for significant capital investment. In order for any school to obtain capital investment, it needs to be selected following a call for either a school enhancement programme or major capital projects. The most recent call for major capital projects started in September 2019 and closed on 31 October 2019. The managing authority for schools, the Education Authority, did not put the school forward under that call. In the first instance, it will be for the Education Authority to decide whether Hardy Memorial Primary School meets the criteria for major works and, if so, to forward the proposal to the Department for consideration in a future announcement.

William Irwin (DUP, Newry and Armagh)

I thank the Minister for his response. What steps does the school need to take to be able to be considered for capital development?

Peter Weir (DUP, Strangford)

Hardy Memorial Primary School could be subject to a development proposal, so I may be limited in what I can say directly. Generically, there are a number of schools across Northern Ireland that, in terms of their enrolment figures and their admissions, while they can be very healthy, perhaps reflect a particular historical situation or a set of circumstances that did not actually take place.

That is important, because schools that find themselves in that position can then come up against an artificial barrier, which is that, if they are failing to have or unable to have the level of enrolment, with a gap of about 15% between that and what they are entitled to do, they can find themselves running up against the barrier of the gateway check, which means that they do not count as a sustainable school.

It is for a range of schools that find themselves in that situation to see whether, working with the managing authority, they can submit a development proposal that allows a level of rightsizing.

I know, even from experience simply as an MLA, that, on occasions, schools had maybe an unrealistic figure that reflected a decision taken in the 1970s or 1980s. It is important that schools are not artificially held back from doing that. It would then be for Hardy to engage with the Education Authority on the right-sizing. At the moment, because of the way the numbers work, there is a certain barrier for the school.

2.15 pm

Paula Bradley (DUP, Belfast North)

4. Ms P Bradley asked the Minister of Education whether he has any plans to introduce an electronic system of record-keeping for special educational needs assessments. (AQO 61/17-22)

Peter Weir (DUP, Strangford)

The Education Authority is engaged in phase 1 of a small business research initiative procurement process that includes the development and introduction of an electronic system of record-keeping for special educational needs assessments. This phase of the process is due for completion on 31 March 2020. The objectives of the process are to improve efficiency and effectiveness in the use of data to provide a child-centric and insight-driven service for parents, carers and young people with SEN. Be it in education or other fields, we can talk about vast statistics, but behind, for instance, any decision on special needs education, as, indeed, on other issues, we should all remember we are talking about individual children, so it has to be child-centric.

Key metrics of the process will be expected to include reduced time for statutory assessments; reduced costs of administration of those statutory assessments; improvement in the experience of the assessment and review process for parents and service users — considerable concerns have, at times, been raised about that, particularly by parents; improvement in the quality and timeliness of information for service providers; advanced analytics; and an electronic system of record-keeping.

Paula Bradley (DUP, Belfast North)

I thank the Minister for his answers thus far and welcome his answer. I have spoken to several SENCOs in schools in my area who highlighted the amount of duplication and paperwork required during an educational pathway for a child. What work is being done to share information between the Education Authority and the health trusts during the statutory assessment process?

Peter Weir (DUP, Strangford)

The Member is right. There is a desire to look at that, and it is perhaps most acute in special needs education. Across the board, where there is unnecessary duplication — sometimes it can be between different statutory bodies in education or across education — we need to look at how we can roll back and ensure that how the burden can be reduced for parents and schools is almost a separate issue.

Very specifically, on the issue of the health trusts, led by my Department, there is an implementation of improvements to the joint education and health notification referral and statutory assessment — NRSA — project, which is nearing completion. Many of the key recommendations have been implemented: for example, revised standard templates for the health trusts to record information needed for statutory assessment. The EA and the health trusts are testing a mechanism to securely transfer information between them electronically, because we live in an era of GDPR and, indeed, data protection.

Chris Lyttle (Alliance, Belfast East)

The Education Minister will be aware that serious concerns for the Education Authority's administration of special educational needs led to an internal audit. Does the Minister believe that that is an adequate approach to investigating those concerns, and will he update the Assembly on that review?

Peter Weir (DUP, Strangford)

I understand that the audit has reached completion. It will be shared first of all, I think, with the Education Authority board. I hope to receive that fairly soon.

It is important, in terms of processes, to get this right. While much of that is directly for the EA to implement, as a Department and as a Minister, we want to make sure that all provisions are made and lessons learned for our special needs children and particularly for their parents. All of us as MLAs will have experienced the frustration of individual parents and throughout our constituency. Whatever the audit comes back with, if there are key recommendations, it is important they are implemented swiftly, so that we are not faced, particularly when it comes to the placement of children with special educational needs, with another summer of difficulties when records appear to be lost and there is inadequate communication. It is a time of high stress when a family is looking at where their child will be placed for their special educational needs. It about getting the substance right but also ensuring that the communication strategy is right.

Karen Mullan (Sinn Féin, Foyle)

Given the concerns raised and the sensitive information about children that is recorded in special educational needs assessments, how will the Minister ensure that any introduction of electronic record-keeping is compliant with data protection safeguards?

Peter Weir (DUP, Strangford)

The Member raises an important point. The work that is being done between the EA and the health trusts to trial this and ensure that what they have is fit for purpose has to be on the basis that the information is secure. The EA and the health trusts are testing the secure sending of this before it goes live. All documents used to collate and share information relating to statutory assessment have been amended to include explicit parental consent — there is no point in going ahead with any sharing of information unless it is with the buy-in of parents — and ensure that they are GDPR-compliant. While explicit consent will be a choice for the individual parents, the process will mean that there is a better sharing of data and hopefully a more timely, more efficient and better process. Once the testing has been done in respect of GDPR, I will urge parents to give their consent, but that is obviously a choice for each individual parent.

Mark Durkan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

I thank the Minister for his answers thus far. I welcome news of the new electronic system, which sounds like it will increase the speed with which assessments are carried out. However, will the system have more agility or flexibility than the current system, so that, as children's needs change, so does the support that they receive, without their having to go right back to the start?

Peter Weir (DUP, Strangford)

To be fair to the Education Authority, it has introduced a couple of digital systems recently, the trialling of which has actually worked out quite well: for instance, the checking of eligibility tor transport worked well. It is important that there is that level of agility. If we are talking about the digital system, the agility is largely about the transfer of information. The information can transfer, but it is important that we have a wider level of support and protection for special needs education. This will also feed into the new SEN framework, which I hope to consult on in the spring. It is important that we have adaptability. One of the problems that there has been in the past is that a particular assessment is done on a child and then it becomes a fixed point, effectively. That sometimes gives assurance to people, but it can also mean that what we have is not up to date with what is required. Hopefully, the flow of secure information can make the system a little more agile; it certainly cannot hurt. Hopefully, it will also mean that, in respect of special educational needs, we can look at more tailored interventions and, indeed, perhaps earlier interventions. In the past, there has maybe been a little bit too much of a one-size-fits-all approach.

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

5. Mr O'Dowd asked the Minister of Education to outline his Department's response to the report from the Centre for Research in Educational Underachievement (CREU), which found that academic selection has significant detrimental social, educational and economic consequences for pupils from lower socio-economic backgrounds. (AQO 62/17-22)

Peter Weir (DUP, Strangford)

I was wondering how quickly academic selection would come in. There has been much controversy over language in the last months, so it is perhaps a risk to introduce a fourth language into the equation, but there is a little bit of, "Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose", from the Member. As nobody has earphones, I should say that that translates as, "The more things change, the more they stay the same". While the report has not been formally submitted to the Department, the findings will be considered. I note that the report talks about further research to develop bespoke solutions. That underlines the commitment in 'New Decade, New Approach' to establishing an expert group to establish the link between educational underachievement and socio-economic background, and it is vital that we take the opportunity to explore that.

The Member will be aware that there is a wide range of views on academic selection. It may be that the Member and I do not quite have a simpatico view on the benefits or otherwise of academic selection. I support the right of schools to use academic selection. Our system has to ensure that it has opportunities for all. When looking at educational underachievement, I consider one of the problems to be that there is sometimes too much of a focus on what happens precisely at 11. Critically, if we are to make big differences when it comes to educational underachievement, a lot of the focus has to be on early interventions. To be fair to the Member and his predecessors, that has been realised for many years and been implemented for many years. Early interventions are the critical bit, because, to some extent, if a problem is persisting at age 11, there is a good argument that we have not really sorted out the problem. I look forward to many fine engagements with the Member in his now elevated role of Chief Whip of the party opposite.

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

I thank the Minister for his response. Even without my 11-plus, I understood what he said at the start.

I have no doubt that the Minister believes in evidence-based policy, and, when all the evidence points you in one direction, there is a responsibility on Ministers across the board to make the right decision. When the United Nations Committee on the Rights of the Child (UNCRC), the Equality Commission, the Human Rights Commission, the four teachers' trade unions, the programme for international student assessment (PISA) and much other international research tell us that the 11-plus and academic selection is bad for your education system, there is a duty on the Minister to follow that evidence. Does he agree that it is time to bring academic selection to an end?

Peter Weir (DUP, Strangford)

I could hurry on to other questions by simply saying no. In my experience, academic selection is an argument that, in this jurisdiction and across other jurisdictions, has been raging for 50 or 60 years. There is unlikely to be a level of consensus on it. I take a view that we should compare academic selection with the likely alternative. For instance, across the water in England, there is a system of public schools — private education — where those who are wealthiest are effectively able to buy the best education. There are those who look for schools that will provide a particular education and judge areas where the house prices go up as possibly having the best schools. The alternative is therefore selection by wealth. Whatever the flaws are with academic selection, by comparison, the system across the water drives a much more unequal society.

If we look at the intake in our universities, we will see that we have a much more diverse level of social mobility than in other places. We have seen a steady rise in the success rate of those on free school meals, for instance. We have a system in which, last year, non-selective schools outperformed the average in Wales and, indeed, are ahead of the OECD average. While there could be criticisms of our current system, there is a lot of success to be celebrated as well. If we simply view educational underachievement through the prism of academic selection, we will have missed a trick.

Matthew O'Toole (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast South)

Minister, in 2016, not long before this place fell, you took the unilateral decision to reintroduce transfer-test coaching to primary schools. Can you provide an estimate on how much primary-school teaching time has been spent on transfer-test coaching in the past three and a half years?

Peter Weir (DUP, Strangford)

I appreciate that the Member is somewhat new to this place, but he may find that my decision was effectively the reverse. Guidance was issued by the Department to schools that essentially said, "You are not to do anything that prepares up". What happened was that it became a certain level of false prospectus, in that some schools were providing coaching but, perhaps, not letting the Department of Education know, while some were abiding by the guidance. I actually said that I was leaving it up to the schools to decide.

The Member mentioned coaching. Where there is a ban in place on doing any preparation in schools, coaching will still happen, but, again, it will be those who are in the best position financially to afford it who will get that coaching. What I said was intended to try to produce, to a certain extent, a more level playing field, and it was also done on the basis that, whatever was happening, it was not to be to the detriment of the curriculum being provided in primary schools.

Alex Maskey (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

I call Kellie Armstrong for a very quick question and, hopefully, a very quick response from the Minister.

Kellie Armstrong (Alliance, Strangford)

It will be very quick. Thank you very much for your patience, Mr Speaker.

There is an increasing body of evidence against academic selection. Can the Minister of Education cite any specific independent research in favour of the suitability of academic selection?

Peter Weir (DUP, Strangford)

I judge it by the pragmatic success story that our schools have been. Northern Ireland has continually achieved the highest results at GCSE level. Less than 1% of our pupils leave without any GCSE qualifications at all. We have seen a steady improvement in the results of pupils on free school meals; indeed, the gap is closing. As I indicated, even for non-selective schools in our system, the results are higher than the OECD average and the average for Wales. The proof of the pudding is very much in the eating. The reality is that we are not living in some utopian type of system. I note that the Member, therefore, wants to see the abolition of grammar schools. If we were to do so —.

Kellie Armstrong (Alliance, Strangford)

[Interruption.]

Peter Weir (DUP, Strangford)

Sorry?

Kellie Armstrong (Alliance, Strangford)

All ability.

Alex Maskey (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

Time is up.

Peter Weir (DUP, Strangford)

Well, it would be

[Inaudible]

but I appreciate that the Speaker has —.

Alex Maskey (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

That ends the period of listed questions. We now move on to 15 minutes of topical questions.

Cathal Boylan (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

T1. Mr Boylan asked the Minister of Education, in the light of last week’s motion on autism training for teachers and classroom assistants, which was supported by all sides of the House, whether he will consider entering into discussions with the unions. (AQT 41/17-22)

Peter Weir (DUP, Strangford)

I do not in any way want to enter a turf war, but there seems to be a little bit of divergence in the particular positions of the unions; The NASUWT and the Ulster Teachers' Union seem to come from quite different positions. I will work with all the stakeholders to try to ensure that we implement the best possible provision of autism training. If we could get the teaching profession to speak with one voice, that would be helpful as well.

Obviously, the challenges are there as to how we best put it in place, both in initial teacher education and, given some of the expertise out there, in rolling it out to the present teaching workforce so that we ensure that all our pupils get the best possible provision for and awareness of autism in particular.

Cathal Boylan (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

I thank the Minister for the answer. I appreciate the position of some of the unions. Will the Minister seek funding for any scheme that he wishes to introduce in the future?

Peter Weir (DUP, Strangford)

I am always keen to seek any form of funding. If the Member opposite can have a word with his constituency colleague for Newry and Armagh, the Finance Minister, I would greatly appreciate any assistance that can be given.

There are opportunities. As we move towards an SEN framework, the training of teachers will carry a price tag with it. I think that we could create something that is integrated. I think that I mentioned in last week's debate that work also needs to be done on initial teacher education. That will require the cooperation of not just the Department but the Department for the Economy and the teacher training institutions. From that point of view, while the Department sets the numbers and can give a level of direction, the details of the curriculum, ultimately, will be set in conjunction with the teacher training bodies. Ultimately, if there are additional costs, they will probably be borne by the Department for the Economy. If we are to do something, it cannot be done a shoestring; it has to be fit for purpose. I am very keen on any additional resources that my Department can get. I think that I said last week that the one thing that you can pretty much be sure of in education is that, if money is there, it will get spent.

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

T2. Mr O'Dowd asked the Minister of Education, albeit that he was sorely tempted to return to the subject of academic selection, whether he will engage with the Peace Plus programme for shared education and other departmental programmes that receive funding from the EU Peace programmes. (AQT 42/17-22)

Peter Weir (DUP, Strangford)

I am happy to engage with any particular programme. There can be great value in shared education and other activities. As such, despite Brexit, there will be opportunities for that level of cooperation. Looking at some wider context, when a new Government emerge in the Republic of Ireland, there will be certain cross-border aspects that we will need to look at as well. I am very open-minded about trying to engage in any shape or form to build on those experiences. Again, if there are any routes by which additional funding can be levered in, I am very open to them.

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

The Minister has to be concerned about the significant amounts of money — I doubt that he has the figure in front of him; he can supply it to me another time — that come from EU funding programmes into the Department of Education, which we are about to lose. Has he factored in how he is going to replace those programmes or how the Department is going to operate without them?

Peter Weir (DUP, Strangford)

We can get the detail of the exact amounts. On the direct inputs of those funds into the Department of Education, we tend to be at the lower scale compared with some other Departments. Obviously, there will be engagement with the Executive and the UK Government on where we can find additional funding and where there will be replacement funding. One of the bonuses of Brexit will be the opportunity for the Northern Ireland Executive to receive additional funds that might otherwise have gone to the EU. We have to make sure that those funds are spent in as appropriate a manner as possible.

Dolores Kelly (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Upper Bann)

T3. Mrs D Kelly asked the Minister of Education whether he has any plans to review the overall administration of our schools and put more money into front-line teaching, given that, last year, the three main teaching unions gave a presentation to the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee at which they said, “Few educationalists would disagree that our system has an enormous body of staff who do little more than check or regulate other staff” — in other words, micromanaging. (AQT 43/17-22)

Peter Weir (DUP, Strangford)

Certainly, there is a priority to ensure that what is there is for front-line teaching. Where there can be efficiencies, part of the bid for next year, as it was for this year, will be around where voluntary redundancies can happen in administration.

Whatever level of budget there is, there is a priority to put the maximum amount into front-line services. Perhaps rightly so, the majority of the money within the Department of Education goes directly into teachers' salaries and the clear majority goes directly into schools, so to some extent, whilst there are efficiencies that can be driven from the system, and this is one aspect that will need to be looked at in the wider review of education, I am not convinced that there is a large pool of money. If it was easy for it to be drawn down, that would have been done by now.

Certainly, any places that can make efficiencies will be looked at, because, roughly speaking, about 80% of the overall cost of education is from salaries. I will direct as much of that as possible to front-line services, and sometimes that will mean that difficult decisions need to be taken.

Dolores Kelly (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Upper Bann)

Will the Minister consider the fact that our classroom sizes are the highest across these islands? What measures can he introduce through the review to address that?

Peter Weir (DUP, Strangford)

It depends a little bit, because I have seen some statistics, but I am not sure that they are particularly accurate. As with any set of statistics, you can question their variable base. I can only reiterate that I will try to ensure that, as far as possible, front-line services are delivered within the budget.

One of the issues we probably have with classroom sizes is the high variability in our system. Sometimes, we see several year groups being taught by one teacher, particularly in primary schools, which is not a particularly good thing. Also, in post-primary schools, we sometimes see circumstances in which the full range of subjects cannot be provided. That is part of a wider reform agenda. At times, that will require a driver to ensure that we get the best possible results for our children. Sometimes, that can lead to certain levels of efficiencies, but efficiencies do not come with an easy button to press; that will require a level of change, which will be a challenge to all of us across the House.

Chris Lyttle (Alliance, Belfast East)

T4. Mr Lyttle asked the Minister of Education, given that he will be aware of the significant impact of ongoing teacher industrial action and the New Decade, New Approach commitment to urgently resolve the matter, to state how he is working with the Minister of Finance and the UK Government to secure the finance necessary to implement fair teacher pay and conditions, as agreed in 2019. (AQT 44/17-22)

Peter Weir (DUP, Strangford)

If this was pantomime season, I would be tempted to say that the genie has just appeared from across the Chamber in terms of the Minister of Finance. I will be working with the Minister of Finance and the rest of the Executive as part of the broader budgetary process. There will be an opportunity in roughly a week's time to meet on a one-to-one basis with the Minister of Finance.

The Member is right to mention pay and conditions, because there is sometimes a pure focus on one without the other. I have had a very good meeting with the unions since I have been in office, and I indicated that, at least on the 2017-19 phase, there is largely agreement on something that is, to borrow from our Prime Minister, oven-ready. All we need is the direct finance to do that. I indicated to them that, if sufficient finance is there, I will move on that very quickly. It is important to get a level of industrial harmony. Arising out of that will also be a range of work streams looking at conditions, and there are opportunities to have win-wins. Changes need to be made on issues around administration, inspection, substitution etc. Without prejudicing anything in the work streams, I will be looking to see how quickly we can move ahead with those things. If something good can be done, the quicker it is done, the better.

Chris Lyttle (Alliance, Belfast East)

I thank the Minister for his update. How confident is he that he will secure the finance necessary to guarantee fair teacher pay and conditions, and is there any threat of an escalation of industrial action if, indeed, he does not secure that finance urgently?

Peter Weir (DUP, Strangford)

I do not want to overhype things. If we are in a situation where things are resolved, that produces a positive way forward. If they are not resolved, there is always the risk of escalation, so the Member is right to highlight that. The question of how confident I am about securing resources might be better directed to the Minister opposite.

Declan McAleer (Sinn Féin, West Tyrone)

T5. Mr McAleer asked the Minister of Education whether his Department has any plans to ensure that, with the roll-out of Project Stratum, schools in rural areas will benefit from improved broadband connectivity. (AQT 45/17-22)

Peter Weir (DUP, Strangford)

The direct detail on the broadband strategy, which I think schools can benefit from, is ultimately being driven by the Department for the Economy. Indeed, it is important that promises that were made on the investment in broadband infrastructure are delivered on by government centrally. As I said, the detail of the roll-out is a matter directly for a different Department, but improved rural broadband will have a very positive impact on our schools. I have visited schools and seen, quite often on some of the digital skills and the use of good broadband, very intelligently used teaching techniques to make use of electronic devices.

Declan McAleer (Sinn Féin, West Tyrone)

I thank the Minister for his answer. Will he give us an assurance that he will consult with his colleagues in the Department for the Economy on Project Stratum? Will he also give us an assurance that the Education Authority will be sufficiently funded so that schools will be well placed with additional IT resources to deal with the anticipated improved connectivity?

Peter Weir (DUP, Strangford)

As I said, we need to make sure that we are well placed on connectivity. On the 14-to-19 strategy, for example, I will be looking to work with the Department for the Economy. Issues around early interventions, for example, are sometimes cross-cutting between Health and even Justice or Communities. Mental health issues in schools are also cross-cutting. Therefore, a lot of this requires joined-up thinking and joined-up work. I will be very happy to work on the broadband issue with my colleague and, indeed, with other Departments to help to deliver that.

Rachel Woods (Green, North Down)

T6. Miss Woods asked the Minister of Education whether he will amend schedule 3(3) to the Addressing Bullying in Schools (Northern Ireland) Act 2016 to reflect section 75 of the Northern Ireland Act 1998 to ensure that schools report bullying across all the section 75 groups. (AQT 46/17-22)

Peter Weir (DUP, Strangford)

It is important to deal with any bullying incident from whatever source it comes. When the previous Minister brought in anti-bullying legislation, I was Chair of the Education Committee, and I think that it is important that all incidents are recorded.

Perhaps the Member has the legislation to hand. Mention is made in the legislation that, essentially, the bullying incident would be recorded as well as its nature and cause. My view is that bullying is wrong no matter from what source it comes.

The next step, I suppose, before we look directly at any forms of amending legislation, is that there would be consultation soon on how we actually implement the legislation. The Northern Ireland Anti-Bullying Forum has drawn up guidelines that are in a position to be rolled out fairly quickly. There have been some problems with rolling out the training on that that, to some extent, have been a by-product of industrial action in some schools. Alongside a desire to ensure that industrial action is brought to an end, we should get the requisite training for all our teachers on preventing bullying, because, from whatever source, whatever motivation and whatever false prospectus anybody uses for bullying, whether it is in school or outside school, it is wrong. It is a very clear-cut message. We heard that across the Chamber, particularly from our young people at the event on Friday.

Alex Maskey (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

Unfortunately, time is up. We move on to questions to the Department of Finance.

Oral Answers to Questions — Finance

William Irwin (DUP, Newry and Armagh)

1. Mr Irwin asked the Minister of Finance whether he will commit to working with the Minister for Infrastructure to ensure the necessary finance is available to enable vehicle test centres to resume testing services. (AQO 70/17-22)

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

The detail of the situation with vehicle testing is a matter for the Infrastructure Minister. I am aware that she has commissioned an urgent external expert assessment of the steps needed to return the MOT centres to a position where a full testing service can be delivered. My Department has provided support with the procurement of that external expertise. The work commenced on 3 February, and, until such times as that assessment has been undertaken, it is not possible to determine the extent of any repair or replacement programme or associated costs.

It is worth pointing out that the DVA is a trading fund, which allows it to hold reserves to fund planned investment. In the first instance, any necessary expenditure can be funded from those DVA reserves, although that may have an impact on the DVA's future capital in new and refurbished test centres, and we will need to consider that in due course.

William Irwin (DUP, Newry and Armagh)

I thank the Minister for his response. Does he accept that it is serious issue and that it is important it is addressed as soon as possible?

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

Yes. I concur with that. I have had conversations with the Infrastructure Minister. She is clearly waiting to see whether what is needed is a replacement programme, which is capital expenditure, or a repair programme, which is revenue expenditure. Certainly, I will want to do all I can to help her once she has come to the conclusions she needs to come to.

Dolores Kelly (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Upper Bann)

Minister, can you give us any information on whether there are any more unexpected spending pressures relating to unresolved issues from the three years of Stormont hiatus?

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

There are no shortage of spending pressures, as the Member will well know, hence the reason that we continue to have discussions with Treasury on the funding commitments in the 'New Decade, New Approach' document, to try to secure the necessary resources to meet some of those pressures. That dialogue will continue. I have been clear about the challenging budgetary situation that we face. I will bring a Budget to the House in the next number of weeks, and Members will have an opportunity then to debate it in full.

Roy Beggs (UUP, East Antrim)

Given the legal aspect involved, will the Minister also review the contracts of those who were responsible for maintaining the equipment in MOT centres and failed to spot the flaws that have caused such disruption?

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

It will be a matter for the Department for Infrastructure to review its contracts. First, we want to assist it in providing some expertise to do the analysis. Once that analysis is done, as I said, depending whether it takes us into a programme of replacement or repair, obviously, there will be the question of the finance to do it. The DVA should have some of that, and other finance may come to us. I think everybody is agreed that we want to get the situation resolved, however that might be and whatever the future implications are for contracts in MOT centres. We want to ensure we get the system back up and working again as quickly as we can.

Trevor Lunn (Alliance, Lagan Valley)

Unfortunately, my question is similar to the last one. I want to ask the Minister about liability for this fiasco, as I call it. It seems astonishing that all those lifts should have failed at the same time. I wonder about the inspection regime, how old they were and who supplied them. Is there any possibility of recovering money so it will not cost the public purse a fortune?

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

As I said in my initial answer, the Minister for Infrastructure has instigated two separate investigations. I hope that some of the questions that he and the previous Member have asked will be answered in those investigations as to how we got to this situation and what the consequences are for contracts, liability and whether there is any ability to claw back and make people answerable for the service that they ought to have provided.

Gerry Carroll (People Before Profit Alliance, Belfast West)

I am not sure if the Minister is aware that the Minister for Infrastructure said this morning, in a written answer to a question from me, that there are no plans to bring outsourced maintenance of DVA equipment in-house. Does the Minister share the view of his Executive colleague?

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

I am not aware of her plans. Obviously, I am not across a written answer that was given to you this morning. I almost feel like I am in my old job as Regional Development Minister; I am answering questions about infrastructure. Clearly, it is a matter that she will have to deal with. I presume that, when she has the results of both the investigations that she has set out, she will bring them to the Assembly, the Committee and the Executive, and then we will take decisions.

Andrew Muir (Alliance, North Down)

2. Mr Muir asked the Minister of Finance whether a transitional relief scheme will be put in place before non-domestic rates bills are issued for the financial year 2020-21. (AQO 71/17-22)

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

Frequent revaluations are in line with policy directions already set by the last two Finance Ministers. Also, business organisations have long called for frequent and regular revaluations. At the last revaluation, in 2015, transitional relief was not considered necessary, even after a period of 12 years, so it would be difficult to justify it now after just five years. The transitional relief scheme that operates in Britain delays the decreased liability for those whose bills go down, as well as the increased liability for those whose bills go up. Any scheme which only worked in one way, suppressing any increases, would be very difficult to justify financially, not least alongside the very many other competing priorities facing the Executive. Therefore, I have no plans to implement a transitional relief scheme for 2020-21.

Andrew Muir (Alliance, North Down)

The Minister will be aware of the impact of Reval 2020, particularly on the hospitality sector. I ask the Minister to outline what other measures he is considering to assist those businesses? The rises that have been effected to some organisations could result in closure. It is important that the Minister outlines what measures are being considered to assist the businesses affected by this.

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

I am aware that any reval will throw up people who are satisfied. I think some 75% of retail properties will see no change or a decrease in valuation. Obviously, those who see an increase, particularly those in the hospitality sector, have an opportunity to challenge and make an appeal to Land and Property Services (LPS). There is also a factor, particularly in relation to the hospitality sector, where there is a need for information sharing with LPS about turnover. I appeal to people in the hospitality sector to do that as quickly as they can, because it allows a more accurate assessment of their rates liability.

Generally, there are small business rate relief schemes for businesses, but I understand that businesses are struggling. The economic circumstances are not good, and that is why there was a significant consultation undertaken last autumn. The results are being analysed by me and my Department, and we will make decisions and bring those to the Executive in the coming time.

Paul Frew (DUP, North Antrim)

Yes, it is correct that we should do revaluations more often to allow businesses to change in a smaller way. Given the fact that some in my constituency could well see rate increases of 600%, is it too soon to roll out a transitional relief scheme? Could it be used in order to remove the shock and trauma that businesses will face if they experience increases like that?

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

Again, I am not aware of the specifics that the Member mentions. I will say that there are significantly more businesses that have either no change or a reduction than have an increase. Now, if there are people who have substantial increases, they should engage with LPS. If it is people in the hospitality sector, there are agreed methodologies that use evidence from receipts and expenditure in order to come to a fair assessment of rental value. It is the rental value that is used for the rates bill. I appeal to people who are suffering as you have outlined to engage with LPS. We have conducted a review and consultation. It was an extensive consultation, and it was well responded to. That has given us much information to allow us to make an assessment. However, businesses that are suffering what they consider to be a very substantial increase need to engage with LPS to see how that can be worked through.

Pat Catney (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Lagan Valley)

The hospitality trade can be fickle, and those who find themselves invested in their premises will find themselves much levied upon. I agree with what Mr Frew said about increases in the sector. There must be a fairer methodology available to look at the rates, Minister. I, for one, am not sure that the current rating system is fit for purpose. I hope that the Minister will agree with me and look at ways in which to change it to make it fairer.

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

There are standard methodologies for assessing rental values for properties. There are different valuations for some in the hospitality sector, and, as I said, people can use evidence of receipts and expenditure to come to a fairer assessment. There has been a fairly low uptake in providing that type of information to LPS. I understand that people in the hospitality sector have good and bad times. They have quiet periods of the year and, like all businesses, are struggling. I encourage those who face particular pressures to engage, with the full information required, in order to get the fairest possible assessment of their rate liability.

Mike Nesbitt (UUP, Strangford)

Given that the draft Programme for Government targets the promotion of "longer, healthier, more active lives", notwithstanding rates relief in the sports sector, how do you square that with NAV increases of 30% to 40%? Belfast Indoor Bowls Club has gone up 30·35%; Banbridge Rugby Football Club has increased by 42·16%; and, perhaps, close to the Minister's heart, the Athletics Grounds in Armagh has a 21·75% NAV increase.

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

I understand entirely. As a visitor to the Athletics Grounds, I get asked about those matters. Properties such as sports clubs are rarely rented, so an indirect approach has to be found to establish a rental value. There is a substantial sports rate relief programme. Any part of an overall facility that is used solely for sport can get up to 80% relief, which means only 20% of the rates bill is being paid. If there is a social club or another use with a more commercial outlook, the facility is subject to full rates.

I get it. We want to encourage more people to be active, but, where they use premises or facilities purely for sports, they are entitled to substantial rate relief.

Liz Kimmins (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

I congratulate the Minister formally on his appointment. I am proud to call him my colleague. I know that he will do a formidable job.

Liz Kimmins (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

3. Ms Kimmins asked the Minister of Finance when the review of the non-domestic rating system will be completed. (AQO 72/17-22)

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

I thank the Member for her kind words.

The public consultation closed towards mid-November with very valuable feedback from the public meetings and the 239 written responses received. My Department is in the process of briefing me fully on the business rates review. I want to establish what short- and medium-term policy objectives are available to us as an Executive in the context of the overall Budget.

Liz Kimmins (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

I know that there is an urgent need for reform of the rating system, particularly for businesses. It is strongly felt in my Newry and Armagh constituency. Will the Minister also review domestic rates?

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

The question of domestic rates will be part of the Budget programme and Budget legislation that we bring to the Executive, because all of those things will have to be considered in the round to meet the Executive's requirements. Rates is one of the few financial levers that we have to bring in money to provide for services that are very much under pressure across health, education and elsewhere. All of that will be in the mix. We will take propositions to the Executive for decisions that will then be reflected in the Budget legislation brought to the Assembly.

Sinéad Bradley (Social Democratic and Labour Party, South Down)

Has the Minister considered adopting a rate relief system for independent retailers, such as that which exists in England?

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

We will consider all options. As I say, there has been a very substantial consultation. There was particular interest in the Back in Business scheme that provides support for new and emerging business. A lot of support was expressed for a scheme such as that to be reinstated, and I will look at that. The consultation, as I say, was quite extensive, and quite a lot of issues were thrown up during it. I intend to try to study that. The objective of this is to try to bring the fairest possible rates proposition that the Assembly and the Executive can then agree and to ensure that, in doing so, we try to keep businesses viable and town centres economically active. I am happy to look any schemes that may contribute to that. I know that Back in Business received particular attention during the consultation.

Claire Sugden (Independent, East Londonderry)

To determine the net annual value of business properties, Land and Property Service is required to gather data from the various businesses. Is the Minister content with the recent gathering of data that will determine the most up-to-date valuation list? If that could be improved, it might reduce the number of appeals that businesses are expected to bring forward.

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

As I say, there is a standard methodology used for assessing businesses. There are other methodologies used for the hospitality sector and that. If people are not satisfied with their valuation, by all means, they should contact LPS and challenge it, if they feel that the increase from the revaluation exercise has been too much.

I remember being on the Finance Committee previously, and we were very critical of the Department because it had taken 13 years to do a revaluation exercise. That meant that rateable values shot up through the roof, and people got hit with a fairly substantial rise. There is an attempt to do them over a more frequent period — over five years — to make sure that they do not have that type of increase. If businesses or properties are finding that, by all means, they should engage with LPS and try to get a reassessment.

Paul Givan (DUP, Lagan Valley)

In reviewing the non-domestic rating system, will the Minister outline how he engages with local government, in particular the Causeway Coast and Glens Borough Council, on its setting of the rate? Although that may be more a question for the Communities Minister, nevertheless, given the seriousness of the issue, is the Minister able to comment on it?

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

I would not want to comment on an individual council's issues, but I would say that we undertake this exercise to try to find the fairest rating system. If we have managed to keep rates down and local government goes off and decides to fill the gap by putting its rate up, that really undoes the work done in this institution. There needs to be a greater degree of cooperation across all the councils with this institution. Of course local government can set its own rate — that is its remit — but, if we have a collective approach to try to support the economy and town centres and to try to get as fair a rating system as possible for domestic and non-domestic properties, we need a significant degree of collaboration and cooperation from local government as well. I have spoken to my officials about that, and we will try to engage with local government in the time ahead to make sure that, whatever decisions we come to on rates, local government's approach does not upend that, one way or the other.

John Blair (Alliance, South Antrim)

Can consideration be given to valuations occurring perhaps more regularly than every five years? Can more advanced notice of those valuations be given?

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

This valuation has taken place in five years. As I said previously, when I was a member of the Finance Committee a number of years back, the criticism was that it was 13 years since the revaluation, so there was a determined effort, I am pleased to say, from the Department and from LPS to get valuations done more frequently. I think that anything more than five years would be too long, so I hope that that sets the standard that the Department and LPS hold to for revaluation. Anything longer than that leads to very significant increases that can be very challenging for businesses.

Maolíosa McHugh (Sinn Féin, West Tyrone)

4. Mr McHugh asked the Minister of Finance for an update on the funding from the confidence and supply agreement. (AQO 73/17-22)

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

The £760 million of the original £1 billion confidence and supply funding has been allocated to Departments between 2017-18 and 2019-2020. That includes £400 million on infrastructure investment; £200 million on health transformation; £100 million on health and education pressures; £40 million on tackling severe deprivation; and £20 million on mental health. The Secretary of State told the parties that the remaining £240 million of that ring-fenced funding has been withdrawn. Discussions with the Treasury on the financial package are ongoing. In particular, I am attempting to restore the confidence and supply funding.

Maolíosa McHugh (Sinn Féin, West Tyrone)

I am glad to hear that the Minister is in pursuit of the additional funds that are required in the North to meet many of our objectives. Given that the British Chancellor will deliver his Budget on 11 March, when does the Minister intend to bring forward the Executive's Budget?

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

I am sorry, I did not catch the last bit of the question.

Maolíosa McHugh (Sinn Féin, West Tyrone)

When do you intend to bring forward the Executive's Budget to the Assembly, given that the British Chancellor will issue his Budget on 11 March?

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

Sorry; my apologies to the Member.

Yes, that creates a bit of a challenge, because, if, as is promised or as seems to be promised by the British Prime Minister, the Budget involves a significant degree of spending, that will have a trickle-down impact on our Budget. In order to satisfy rates bills going out, we need an early Budget in March. We might then miss that date, and we might have substantial funds to reallocate — I hope that we have — as a consequence of the Budget in Westminster. However, we are not certain of that, so the question will be, "Do we go before that or after it?". I am discussing that with officials, because we do not want to run late with that and, subsequently, have rates bills for premises going out late to businesses that bank on spending money incrementally over the year, in terms of their rates liability.

It is a bit of a dilemma that the Budget in Britain is on 11 March. It is really in the middle of the timescale for us doing our work, but we obviously want to get some understanding of what finances might flow from that for this institution.

Jim Allister (Traditional Unionist Voice, North Antrim)

Is there not a more fundamental question of confidence for the Minister, given his cruel treatment of the Quinn family, that he should be reflecting upon?

In respect of the confidence and supply money, if the offer has been withdrawn, is there any indication that that money is ever going to come to whoever the Minister of Finance might be? If Minister Murphy had a shred of integrity, he would have resigned over the Quinn issue.

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

First, in relation to the question, there was a certain understanding between those who negotiated the confidence and supply money and those who were providing it that it was ring-fenced and that, even if the profile had to be extended into later years, that money would be ring-fenced. The Secretary of State told us verbally — we have no written communication — that such money was no longer on the table. We have been engaging with the Treasury to try to secure that money and the moneys that are committed to in the promises in the 'New Decade, New Approach' document.

I will not take any lectures from the Member who refused to discipline his own party member Trevor Collins, who was campaigning for the UDA killer Torrens Knight, who carried out a massacre in Greysteel.

Jim Allister (Traditional Unionist Voice, North Antrim)

You called an innocent man a criminal.

Alex Maskey (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

Order. Order.

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

The Member who sat alongside loyalist paramilitaries —

Jim Allister (Traditional Unionist Voice, North Antrim)

You have a criminal conviction yourself, Mr Murphy.

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

— on the loyalist marching band forum —

Alex Maskey (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

Order. Will the Minister resume his seat for one second? I just remind Mr Allister that he has to listen to the Speaker when he calls "Order" in the House. I expect that, as I respect all Members, all Members must respect the order and the ruling of the Speaker.

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

Thank you, a Cheann Comhairle. I am just pointing out some of the discrepancies in the Member's own approach in relation to issues, which makes him just another unionist with double standards. In other words, a hypocrite.

Matthew O'Toole (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast South)

I was interested to hear the Minister refer to discussions that he has had about the UK Budget on 10 March. Can he give us an update on discussions he has had around the creation of two bodies: the fiscal council that is mentioned in the 'New Decade, New Approach' document, which will, hopefully, address some of the inconsistencies he talked about in the Treasury's approach; and the fiscal commission — the independent Smith commission-style body — that he has expressed a desire to see set up? Will he give us an update on those two things?

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

The Member is quite right, in that the fiscal council was first mentioned in the Stormont House Agreement and has yet to be set up. It is a function that is very regular in democracies, particularly in the Western world, to assist an Executive with spending plans and with looking at issues to be faced in the longer term. It can be a very useful body. There is not much by way of detail in the description in the document or the reference to it in the most recent agreement. We want to flesh that out a little bit and bring forward some ideas, including a remit, the type of personnel that would sit on it and the type of function that it would provide for the Executive, and put that to Executive colleagues. I hope to do that in the near future.

The Member is correct about the fiscal commission: I have signalled my desire for that. As the discussion on rates shows, we have very limited fiscal levers. To support our Programme for Government priorities, it would be useful for an Executive to have a greater range of fiscal levers at their disposal. As I have indicated to colleagues, I am very happy to do some work on a commission. Again, the detail of its remit and the personnel involved in it need to be fleshed out, but I would like to see such a commission consult with Members and right across the community on what tax-varying levers we may be able to secure and place at our disposal.

The Member is correct that it is an exercise that has already been done in Scotland and Wales. I do not see any reason why we would not try to access some financial levers to allow us to support our Programme for Government, determine our priorities and try to fund them accordingly.

Paula Bradshaw (Alliance, Belfast South)

What will plan B be for the York Street interchange if the Minister is unsuccessful in securing the remainder of the confidence and supply money?

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

This was a report that was given verbally at a meeting. I was not involved in negotiating the confidence and supply money nor how it would be spent, but my understanding is that money that appears to be short was more to do with broadband contracts than the York Street interchange. That is one factor of the money that we want to try to secure, but the bigger factor is the money that was committed to as part of the financial commitments in the 'New Decade, New Approach' document. Those were substantial commitments that were worked through with all the parties, working with senior civil servants, the head of the Civil Service, the permanent secretary of the Department of Finance and senior civil servants from the NIO. It was not simply a wish list that people dreamed up and presented. It was a carefully worked-through document. There are significant commitments in that that need to be met. If they are not met, we will be into a very difficult situation over the next number of years in trying to deliver on our priorities.

Clare Bailey (Green, Belfast South)

5. Ms Bailey asked the Minister of Finance, given that the Executive had to return £150 million of financial transactions capital (FTC) DEL to HM Treasury, to outline his plans to ensure that ring-fenced funding will not go unallocated. (AQO 74/17-22)

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

Financial transactions capital can be used only for loans to, or equity investment in, the private sector. It cannot be used to fund departmental pressures. The position in 2019-2020 was exacerbated by the inability to use FTC for co-ownership housing as planned. This was due to the delay in taking legislation through Westminster to address the classification issue. The Communities Minister has indicated her intention to resolve this matter for 2020-21.

I am keen to ensure a significant uptake in the use of financial transactions capital, and a range of actions are being taken. My officials have been engaging with the Treasury and other devolved Administrations to discuss how this funding will be used in other regions. In addition, departmental officials are liaising with the Strategic Investment Board to examine the issues leading to the lack of uptake. I have asked that they also engage with other Departments to explore innovative ways in which the funding can be used. I will bring the result of this work to the Executive in due course.

Clare Bailey (Green, Belfast South)

Thank you very much for your answer, Minister. I was glad to hear you mention the co-ownership scheme in particular. Given the level of need for all social housing providers and those working within urban regeneration, does he feel that the Northern Ireland Investment Fund has proved beneficial in relieving any pressures in those sectors?

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

I am certain that the Communities Minister, who is here beside me, will look at all funding opportunities. The priority is to try to provide housing for hard-pressed people and families who are seeking proper homes. I think that that is a commitment the Executive also want to support.

As I said in response to an earlier question, the commitments that were given in the 'New Decade, New Approach' document need to be fulfilled. That will provide us with a significant amount of capital over the next 10 years, which will allow us to engage in some of those programmes. I am certain that the Executive and the Communities Minister, in particular, will look at any and all resources that may become available to try to press forward with that programme.

Alex Maskey (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

That ends the period for listed questions. We now move on to 15 minutes of topical questions.

William Irwin (DUP, Newry and Armagh)

T1. Mr Irwin asked the Minister of Finance, albeit that he has answered a number of questions on rates, whether he accepts that there is concern at the lack of consistency in the revaluation process, with some people experiencing a massive hike in their bills. (AQT 51/17-22)

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

I certainly do. That is the evidence — . I am an elected representative in the constituency, as is the Member, and like me, he will be talking to business people and business owners about some of the issues they have with that. As I said, there are different methodologies to calculate that. There has been a substantial consultation with the business community over the autumn. Out of that, some suggestions have flowed, and I want to look at those carefully. The objective in all this is to get the fairest possible rating system for people and to ensure that businesses remain viable and that nothing that the Executive do challenges them in trying to do that. However, the revenue from rates is hugely important in the provision of health, education and other public services, so that is the balance that we have to strike. If there are instances where, people feel, the valuation has been substantially too high, they need to engage with LPS. If they are in the hospitality sector, they need to provide some evidence of their turnover, but, in other sectors, they need to engage to see whether they can get a change of approach to it.

William Irwin (DUP, Newry and Armagh)

Does the Minister accept that, for some businesses, the rates have become intolerable? I know of one business in a small town in the Newry and Armagh constituency that had a rates bill of £36,000, which was increased, in the new proposal, to £50,000 a year.

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

That seems very substantial, but I would need to know the details of the business involved to make any further comment on that. I would say that, where people feel that the increase is unwarranted, they should engage with LPS and should provide whatever information they can to challenge that. I will encourage LPS to engage with all businesses to make sure that people can attempt to make their case to LPS to try to get the fairest possible rating liability assessment.

Justin McNulty (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Newry and Armagh)

T2. Mr McNulty asked the Minister of Finance, given the strong possibility that his party will be in government in the South, to outline his plans to engage with the Irish Government on the financial commitments in the New Decade, New Approach agreement. (AQT 52/17-22)

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

I had been in the process of seeking a meeting with the Finance Minister in Dublin, Paschal Donohoe, when the election was called, so it was not possible to have that meeting. The election came very quickly after our institutions re-formed, so, clearly, there is a need for a meeting. I have to say that the commitments given by the Government in Dublin as part of the agreement were outlined clearly to us in financial terms as to what the amounts were, whereas that was not the case on the British Government side. I have had conversations with the Taoiseach and the Tánaiste since that, and I expect them to live up to those commitments.

There are, obviously, other areas we need to explore in terms of European funding or funding that may flow from Brexit preparations. The earliest possible meeting with the new Finance Minister in Dublin is something I intend to pursue very quickly.

Justin McNulty (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Newry and Armagh)

Will the Minister pursue any other all-Ireland priorities?

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

A bit like him, the all-Ireland priority I am pursuing is Armagh for the title

[Laughter.]

Aside from that pressing issue, of course, there are a range of issues, and it is important that we get an early meeting of the North/South Ministerial Council to pick things up where it left off over the years. As I say, there are issues and challenges that flow to all parts of the island from Brexit, from the protocols that have to be worked out and from the arrangements that need to be made as a consequence of that, but there are other significant areas. There is mention of a border fund in the document, and that is something I want to explore with the Finance Minister in Dublin and with the Treasury, because border communities in both states have suffered most from peripherality and will continue to suffer as a consequence of Brexit, regardless of how it plays out. While I want to have those discussions, the North/South Ministerial Council is the best vehicle for them, and I look forward to its earliest possible reinstatement. Of course, we have to get a Government elected in Dublin, and who knows what the make-up of that may be, but the sooner we have a Government in place, the better, and I think this Executive can get down to business with it.

Sean Lynch (Sinn Féin, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

T3. Mr Lynch asked the Minister of Finance for an update on his plans to reform procurement. (AQT 53/17-22)

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

People do not often recognise that the Executive, small and all as we are in this place, are a substantial spender of public funds. We have an opportunity to ensure that those funds are spent in an ethical way that promotes equality but also in a way that supports the Programme for Government commitments and priorities that the Executive have. We need to have a strong hold on procurement policy. I intend to review procurement policy. I will also consider, in the future, a social value Act to make sure that we get the best benefit for society out of public money, which is, after all, society's money that we are in charge of spending in this institution. I want to see procurement done in a way that is ethical and promotes the values of this institution and the objectives of the Programme for Government.

Sean Lynch (Sinn Féin, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

I thank the Minister for his answer. The social enterprise sector is of the strong view that, if social value is to be properly accounted for, it has to be part of scoring criteria for tenders. Does the Minister intend to consider that issue as part of the pre-consultation?

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

Yes, we do, and there has been ongoing engagement with the social sector. Some of the issues that they have raised can, I think, be changed as a matter of policy. A social value Act is certainly one issue that has been put forward and is under consideration. If I intend to bring forward proposals on that, I will bring them to the Executive and discuss them with the Finance Committee. At a time when we have a very restricted budget in public finances, we need to make sure that we spend them in the best way possible that promotes not only the greatest benefit for society but the objectives of the Programme for Government.