Northern Ireland Assembly, 17 February 2020

381 contributions from 70 members. The official report.

Assembly Business

Alex Maskey (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

Members, Mr Allister raised a point of order last Monday about remarks made to him by the Minister of Finance during Question Time. It was clearly a heated exchange, and I have written to both Members to advise them to ensure that they meet the standards expected in the Chamber. I do not intend to rehearse the incident any further and consider the matter closed, but I want to take the opportunity to give the House an indication of my approach to the standard of debate required.

As the Principal Deputy Speaker pointed out on Monday, previous Speakers' rulings have focused less on individual words being deemed unparliamentary and more on the tone and context in which they are said, and that ensures that Members show one another respect in the Chamber no matter what words they use. Tone and context will remain important considerations for me when judging our debates. There are, of course, myriad important issues to be dealt with in the time ahead on which Members will not agree. It should still be perfectly possible to express and challenge opinions robustly, but that must be done with respect, courtesy, good temper and moderation. Those are the standards that Members should observe and that I intend to uphold.

We have to be mindful that what is said in this place is not simply a matter of relationships between Members, as crucial as those are. We also have a leadership role to play in the wider community. At a time when there have been community divisions and when developments such as social media often make abusive language more commonplace, we should be careful to set an example that helps to minimise those tensions rather than add fuel to them. We are all fully aware that there is much to do to build confidence in the Assembly, and we all have a role to play in that. If people watching from outside can see the main issues of the day being dealt with constructively and respectfully, that would be a very good start.

Finally, if Members are in any doubt as to how they can express themselves in an orderly way, I encourage them to return to my remarks this afternoon in the Official Report and be guided by them.

Jim Allister (Traditional Unionist Voice, North Antrim)

On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Alex Maskey (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

I am not taking any points of order on the matter. The matter is closed.

Alex Maskey (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

Last week, the Assembly observed the normal convention to express condolences on the death of our late colleague Francie Brolly. From a distance, public perceptions often focus only on the party political differences among Members. They often overlook the respect for one another, the strong working relationships and the friendships that are created while pursuing common interests on behalf of our constituencies and sections of our community, and that is why the convention to pay respect to former colleagues exists.

However, during the period when the Assembly was not sitting, a number of other former Members passed away, but there was no opportunity to extend the same convention to them. Having consulted with the Business Committee last week, I take the opportunity put that right today and allow the Assembly to pay its respects on the record.

Today we remember the following eight former colleagues who served in the Assembly: P J Bradley, the SDLP MLA for South Down from 1998 to 2011, who would undoubtedly be proud that his daughter Sinéad continues the legacy of the Bradley name in the Assembly; Pat O'Rawe, the Sinn Féin MLA for Newry and Armagh from 2003 to 2007 and former Mayor of Armagh, whom I obviously knew and respected as a party colleague; Donovan McClelland, the SDLP MLA for South Antrim from 1998 to 2003, who was one of the first Deputy Speakers of the Assembly; Oliver Gibson, the DUP MLA for West Tyrone from 1998 to 2003, who, like Francie Brolly and Séamus Mallon, whom we have lost in recent weeks, gave significant public service as a teacher; the Rev Robert Coulter, the UUP MLA for North Antrim from 1998 to 2011, who was a long-serving member of the Assembly Commission; Dr Ian Adamson, the UUP MLA for East Belfast from 1998 to 2003, who was a former Lord Mayor of Belfast; Wilson Clyde, the DUP MLA for South Antrim from 1998 to 2007, after a lifetime in the agriculture industry; and Seamus Close, the Alliance Party MLA for Lagan Valley from 1998 to 2007 and former deputy leader of the party. We formally express our belated sympathies to their families, colleagues, friends and, of course, parties.

The fact that many Members here today may recognise the names but had never met those Members highlights the fact that, increasingly, the Assembly relies on a new generation to take it forward. However, a few of us, including me, worked alongside almost all of them throughout their tenure in the Assembly in the early days, which were also difficult days. While I knew some of them better than others, I acknowledge the significant public service and sacrifice that they made to their constituencies and our society as a whole. No matter the challenges that continue to exist, we should not overlook the problems faced in the first terms of the Assembly and the pressures that they imposed on those who were Members at that time. I extend my personal condolences to all the families, friends and colleagues of the deceased. We, therefore, record our thanks for the contribution that all those colleagues made to public service, the Assembly and our community.

I invite other Members to add their tributes.

Arlene Foster (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

Let me say, Speaker, that this is a very timely matter that you have brought to us today, which, obviously, comes all together, for very obvious reasons. It is important that we remember former colleagues in this way. My colleagues will pay tribute to individual Members, but, as First Minister and leader of the DUP, I put on record my sympathy to all the families who were bereaved during the three years that we did not meet in this place. It is important that we recognise the service that was given by those Members, as you rightly said, sometimes in difficult and challenging times. We sometimes think that we are the only politicians to live through challenging times, but I well remember that first Assembly and how there were many challenges to be dealt with. I particularly pay tribute, of course, to Oliver Gibson and Wilson Clyde, who were members of my party and served with distinction during that time. I pass my condolences to their families and all the families of the Members who are remembered here today.

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

I also welcome the opportunity to add tributes to the Members who have passed away since the Assembly last sat. As has been said quite often but deserves to be repeated, public life is not always an easy life. I admire anyone who steps forward to serve in public life, regardless of which political tradition or background they come from or espouse to. I knew some of the Members who passed away. I pay particular tribute to Pat O'Rawe, who, as you mentioned in your opening comments, was the first Sinn Féin mayor of Armagh city. I worked with Pat in the Assembly on a number of committees in preparing for the establishment of the Assembly pre 2007. Often when public figures lose their life, it is forgotten that there are family members left behind — they could be partners, husbands, wives, children etc — who grieve the person while society grieves the public representative.

I also pay tribute to Rev Robert Coulter, who represented his constituents in a very quiet and humble way but made his point. I remember that, when I was Education Minister, he lobbied extensively for schools in his constituency. He always did it in a very respectful way, but he made his point. I think we could learn a lot of lessons from how the Rev Coulter went about his business.

So, to all those who lost their life since that last sitting of the Assembly and to all their family members — I think of Sinéad Bradley and pay tribute to P J, who I also worked with and knew — we pay tribute to them and honour their memory.

Nichola Mallon (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast North)

Thank you, Mr Speaker, for creating the space for us today to reflect on the contributions of former Members who passed away over the past three years.

On behalf of the SDLP, I express my sincere condolences to the families of all those who served their communities here and to the current Members who served with them in difficult times. While we often disagree in this Assembly, it is fair to say that, more often than not, political battles rarely infect the personal relationships that have been built across our parties and communities. The strength of this place should be our ability to respectfully differ but to never stop working together in the substantial common interests of those we represent. That is the thread that connects the contributions of all those across all parties we are remembering today.

I pay particular tribute to those SDLP voices that are no longer with us. If you were looking for inspiration on how to connect with your community and represent its interests, you would need look no further than P J Bradley. A fierce and compassionate advocate for Burren, Warrenpoint and Ballyholland, P J's loyalty was to the people of South Down before anyone else. That spoke to his values and his character. P J was a patriot in the truest sense of the word, working quietly without fanfare to bring our communities together and build a resilient peace. He was a trailblazer in initiating the campaign for Narrow Water bridge, a campaign his daughter Sinéad has taken up with the same vigour. I know how proud he was when Sinéad won his seat in South Down, and I have no doubt that, the moment the votes were tallied, he was already thinking about the next campaign. Their contribution to our party, to South Down and to Ireland has been immense.

I also reflect on the contribution Donovan McClelland made to peace and politics on this island. As an SDLP delegate to the Brooke-Mayhew talks and a participant in the Good Friday negotiations, Donovan was an important member of our negotiating team and a key part of that immense effort to get an agreement over the line in 1998. He then worked to sustain these institutions as Deputy Speaker, winning respect for his unfailing fairness to all Members.

It is impossible to reflect on Donovan's life without mentioning the lasting legacy of love he had for his family. I have the privilege of working with Donovan's wife, Noreen, who is one of the North's most genuinely caring public representatives. Her support for him during peace talks and her work since has created a lasting legacy that they both share as pillars of our peace. Life in politics is never easy, not least for our family members, who, in many ways, have to share us with our constituents. It can be difficult for them as their husband, wife, father or mother work long hours; as we know, being an elected representative is not a nine-to-five job. At the same time, it is with great pride that they see their loved ones battling tirelessly and serving relentlessly their constituents as they strive to make life better for their own children and for all children across Northern Ireland.

I have no doubt that the families of P J Bradley, Donovan McClelland, Seamus Close, Dr Ian Adamson, Pat O’Rawe, Rev Robert Coulter, Oliver Gibson and Wilson Clyde are all filled with immense pride at the contribution and legacy that they each made to making this place of ours that much better.

Steve Aiken (UUP, South Antrim)

On behalf of the rest of the Members from the Ulster Unionist Party, I pay tribute to all our Members, but in particular to Rev Robert Coulter and Dr Ian Adamson.

Rev Coulter was a man of faith who served in the Assembly from just before its formation in 1996, when he was elected to the Northern Ireland Forum for Political Dialogue, where he served as the UUP Chief Whip. He had a long political career. In 1985, Robert was elected as a UUP councillor to Ballymena Borough Council. He retained his seat in 1989, and, in 1993, was re-elected to the council and also elected as the first UUP Mayor of Ballymena since the early 1970s. He served as first citizen of Ballymena from 1993 to 1996. He was part of the team in the background that laid the negotiation foundations for what was to become the Belfast Agreement in 1998, and he was elected as a North Antrim Assembly Member in 1998, a seat he was to hold until his retirement in 2011. During his entire Assembly career, he was a member of the Assembly Commission.

He was also active in the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association, which saw him represent the Assembly at conferences at India, Australia and Canada. In the Assembly, he also served on the Health Committee and on the Employment and Learning Committee and was our party spokesman on both portfolios during his time on those Committees. In 2010, he was awarded an MBE for his services to the Commission and to the Assembly.

Following his retirement in 2011, he championed the cause of special needs education and, something that was very dear to his heart, he served as a chaplain to the Ulster Defence Regiment Association and was president of the mid-Antrim branch of the Ulster Special Constabulary Association. Rev Dr Coulter passed away on 5 September 2018 after a long battle with cancer. We remember him very fondly, and we pass on our prayers and good wishes to his surviving family.

Dr Ian Adamson was a former Ulster Unionist Party Lord Mayor of Belfast who died in Belfast. He was a man of many talents and interests. He represented the Victoria electoral area on Belfast City Council from 1989 to 2011 and served as Lord Mayor, Deputy Lord Mayor and High Sheriff. He was also the MLA for East Belfast between 1998 and 2003 and was a founder member of the Somme Association. In addition to his political career, he was a medical doctor and had a keen interest and provided a wealth of knowledge in the field of history, particularly local history and Ulster Scots. As many of us can testify, he was the author of numerous books and papers. He made a huge contribution to cultural and political life and will be greatly missed by all his friends in the party. Indeed, Lord Empey, who served with Dr Adamson in both City Hall and Stormont, said he had :

"a great sense of humour and dry wit. His flair for cultural issues, particularly as they applied to the Ulster Scots tradition, were brought to life with his lectures and anecdotes. Those of us who were colleagues in the City Hall will miss him greatly."

Indeed, he will probably be looking down now with amusement as there was one time in the Assembly where he made a short contribution in Welsh, and a Member from Sinn Féin congratulated him on his fluency in Irish. Adamson corrected him:

"It is the oldest British tongue; it is the language of the Welsh." — [Official Report (Hansard), Bound Volume 2, p247, col 2].

He is survived by his family, and we wish them all the best wishes.

Naomi Long (Alliance, Belfast East)

It feels very strange to be making these tributes to colleagues in this way, but I am genuinely grateful for the opportunity to do so. I hope that Members from other parties will forgive me for focusing on my late colleague Seamus Close in my remarks today.

He was one of the first people to join Alliance when it was first formed in 1970, driven by his belief that the horror that was unfolding on our streets needed to stop and that Northern Ireland needed to change. Characteristically, he did not sit back and wait for someone else to do the heavy lifting, but rolled up his sleeves and he did it himself. In 1973, he was first elected to the new Lisburn Borough Council, and between his role there and as an MLA, he served as an Alliance elected representative for over 34 years. One of the highlights of that time for him was in 1993, when he became the first Catholic and non-unionist mayor of Lisburn council. His first act on that occasion was to write to the leaders of all the local churches to ask if he could attend worship with them. That is a measure of how he tried to instil respect at the heart of everything he did. He was always willing to share his advice and experience with others, often, whether we wanted it or not, and to share his views with younger councillors and politicians. That advice — that you could have it out in the chamber, you could have hot and heavy arguments, but if you could not go outside, shake hands and still be friends at the end of it, you were in the wrong job — is good advice for all of us in this Chamber, too.

Seamus was very much a conviction politician. That showed in his courageous stand on paramilitarism and his unswerving commitment to creating a shared future. He was an inspiring person to work with, to listen to and with whom to be part of the same team. His style was direct and blunt, something which I personally like, and he never pulled his punches with anyone, not even his party colleagues. That style led to his being not just respected but a very useful negotiator: people knew where they stood and knew that he could be relied upon to still be standing there when they returned to him later. They were able to rely on him to be honest and forthright with his opinions. However, that directness was also laced with a wit and humour, which made him not just respected but much liked. It also meant that, post-retirement, he made the transition to political commentator seamlessly, aided hugely by his independence of thought. Having shared a studio with him in his role as commentator on occasion, I certainly never took it for granted that Seamus would agree with me and always felt very relieved on the occasions when he did. I have no doubt that those of you who also shared a studio with him will have felt the same relief.

In the Assembly, Seamus's training in business came to the fore, particularly in finance. His desire to know that public money was not misspent made him a passionate advocate on the Public Accounts Committee. He was always ready to challenge where he felt that there was waste or that money could be better spent and was always conscious that it came from someone else's pocket and should be taken care of properly.

While Seamus was a formidable debater, a fierce opponent and a fearless defender of democracy, he was, at heart, a family man. It is fitting that his wife, Deirdre, has been able to join us today. To her, Natasha, Stephen, Brian and Christopher, and to his grandchildren, I want to extend our ongoing thoughts and prayers at this time. I never had the pleasure of being in the Chamber with him, but we were part of the same Assembly team during the hiatus in proceedings between 2003 and 2007. It was an honour to be so. He was always an encourager to me. He encouraged me to not mince my words, to be direct and to be truthful in what I said. Some of you may wish that I had taken his advice less to heart than, perhaps, I have. He was larger than life. He was full of good humour and a generous spirit. He is very much missed by all of us who knew him.

Tom Buchanan (DUP, West Tyrone)

Of course, it is good to take time to remember and reflect on those who used to serve in the House, sat on these Benches and made their contributions to society and the constituencies that they served. Sadly, they are no longer with us. A number of them were in the House when I came here in 2003. I had the privilege of serving alongside some of them. We will all remember them in different ways; for the different contributions that they made and the service that they provided to their constituencies.

As for me, I remember with fondness my dear friend and colleague Oliver Gibson. Oliver was the person who brought me into politics at the very outset. He brought me into council and paved the way for me to follow him into the Assembly in 2003. He was someone who lived for politics. He made some very valuable contributions indeed. He delivered for his constituents. He was a former schoolteacher and vice-principal of Omagh High School. He was passionate about education and delivering for the people of West Tyrone. He was also a member of the Ulster Defence Regiment, and he wanted to make sure that law and order was protected for the people of Northern Ireland.

Oliver made some very good contributions to and deliveries for the people in West Tyrone, which still stand as a testament to him. Throughout the length and breadth of West Tyrone, people still talk passionately about Oliver Gibson and his legacy.

Today, we remember all the respective families whose homes have been left with a vacant chair and a voice silenced. As they seek to learn to live with the loss that they have sustained, I want simply to pass on our deepest and heartfelt sympathy to them all. I trust and pray that they will know God's help and blessing in the days that lie ahead. It is always difficult when a dearly loved one is taken from us. You do not get over it, but you learn to live with it. As those families learn to live with their grief, sorrow and loss, we assure them of our prayers. It behoves each one of us in the Chamber to number our days and to apply our hearts unto wisdom.

Liz Kimmins (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

I echo the comments of other Members about former Members who have passed away in the last three years. I pay tribute to Pat O'Rawe, a former MLA for the constituency that I now represent, Newry and Armagh. I thank Pat for her service to the constituents of that area during her time in the Assembly and as the first Sinn Féin Mayor of Armagh City and District Council.

Sinéad Bradley (Social Democratic and Labour Party, South Down)

First, I offer my condolences to my friend and colleague, Pat Catney, who today lays his mother, Eileen, to rest. I extend my condolences to his siblings Elizabeth, Laurence, Jim, Dymphna, Damian, Patrick, Assumpta and Broz-ana.

I also add my belated words of sympathy to all families of former Members who have been, rightly, remembered here today. I welcome Noreen McClelland, the wife of former Member Donovan McClelland, who is in the Public Gallery today.

It is at times like this when all our differences, whether real or merely perceived, vanish. As P J Bradley's daughter and an elected representative of the House, I find myself in the most unusual and highly privileged position of being able to stand and thank each of you for the kind words and expressions of condolence that you offered to me and my family following our loss. The sheer volume of kind words of condolence extended to us, often coupled with shared personal stories that beautifully captured Daddy's kindness, has been overwhelming and most comforting. To each of the individuals who reached out to comfort us from near and far, we are truly grateful.

Before and after politics, P J — or Daddy, as he was known in our house — held one rule above all others during his lifetime: his respect for human life was paramount; his commitment to peace unwavering. In this Chamber, Daddy's love for Ireland and its people was repeatedly displayed: his tireless work on the delivery of Irish passport services to post offices here; the realisation of his vision for all-island free travel; and reaching out to the undocumented Irish abroad. These were just some of the projects that he pursued with passion. Daddy immensely enjoyed representing all the people of South Down and his time on the Agriculture Committee. He did so with great humility, diligence and respect for all.

It is my opinion, however, that local issues brought him the greatest sense of achievement. Projects such as securing a village green for our parish in Burren, and placing on it a millennium wall that recorded the name of every person who was living in the parish on millennium day, mark some of his local legacy. He was an avid GAA supporter who never missed an all-Ireland football final, and a lifelong member of St Mary's GAC. It is not possible for me even to begin putting on record the vast range of achievements that Daddy accomplished in his lifetime.

Thankfully for me, much of them have been captured in the books that he published before his passing. Of course, any work unfinished has been passed to me and others to administer for completion, so there is absolutely no pressure on delivering the Narrow Water bridge.

On behalf of my mother, Leontia, my siblings Martin, Joanne, Deborah, Catherine, Stephanie, William and Miceal, Daddy's brother, Liam, and sisters Nora and Nuala, and all our extended families, I thank the House and all of those who offered words of comfort to us. So many people stepped in to help us. I am acutely aware that, in naming some people, I will leave others out. However, I cannot let the moment pass without personally thanking Father Charlie Byrne, Roisin McCrink, my office staff, Sean O'Hare, and the McAteer family, all of whom offered us great support at a very difficult time.

Finally, I use the opportunity to place on record our huge appreciation to the medical team who supported Daddy during his short illness and to the Southern Area Hospice, which supported Daddy and our family during what was a very peaceful passing. I will always be proud to be P J's daughter. Rest in peace, Daddy.

Robin Swann (UUP, North Antrim)

I thank you, Mr Speaker, for allowing this business to proceed today. Like other Members, I pay tribute to those former Members who have passed away, in particular Rev Dr Bob Coulter, who was a personal friend and mentor to me. As John O'Dowd and our party leader have already expressed, Bob's passion for health and for employment and learning matters in this place is something that he held deeply. He brought that experience to bear in the delivery of Castle Tower special school in Ballymena. Many will see that as part of his enduring legacy, because he was chair of the board of governors from the original concept to the delivery of the school. I know that he did not make John's job as Education Minister easy at times, but the way in which he conducted that campaign brought about the delivery of the school.

It has been noted that, during his time at Stormont, he moved around the corridors not just with ease but with speed. He often left many a staff member or visitor finding it hard to keep up with him. In the tributes that have been paid, everyone has acknowledged his warmth and the personal time that he gave to anyone whom he met. He was a man who was as comfortable sitting at a kitchen table up a lane in Clogh as he was sitting down to tea with Nelson Mandela.

Like many, I am blessed to have learned from Bob's experience. Having had him as a political mentor and guide has been a great resource to me. A mentor is someone who wants to see you rise to the top and is willing to help you get there, even if it means letting you stand on his shoulders. Bob would not mind my saying that, even with me on his shoulders or him on mine, there is many a hedge or wall in North Antrim that neither of us could have seen over.

[Laughter.]

For those who knew him, he was a man who had a story for every occasion and eventuality. It was only at the end of those stories that you could tell by the glint in his eye whether he had been winding you up. I once said to him that he taught me everything that I know of the craft of politics. His answer to me, with that same smile, was, "Yes, but I didn't teach you everything I know".

Unfortunately, Elizabeth, Bob's wife, constant companion, confidante and adviser, passed away only a few weeks ago. I pass on my condolences and our condolences to comfort John, Liz, Sharon, Nick, Dan and Adam and the wider family circle. It is known that Bob was a man of great faith who had great love for the Lord. It was his greatest strength, and the gift to us all is that we are assured that he is walking the corridors of power in a better place with the same ease, grace and welcome that he walked the corridors here in Stormont.

Trevor Lunn (Alliance, Lagan Valley)

I pay tribute to all the Members whom you mentioned at the start of proceedings. I cannot say that I knew them all very well, but I remember P J Bradley as an absolute gentleman. He was a pleasure to be with. I also knew the Rev Robert Coulter. I will say exactly the same thing about him: he was a true gentleman and made some great contributions to the House. Oddly enough, I also remember Oliver Gibson. I knew him before he got into politics, back in the '70s. He was another gentleman, but I knew him through education, so I will not say anything about his politics.

In particular, I will carry on from what Naomi said about Seamus Close and then say a few words about Dr Ian Adamson. Seamus Close was the reason I joined Alliance back in 1989. I will not repeat what Naomi said about him, but I will amplify it slightly. He was awarded the OBE in 1997 for his contribution to public services, and, in 2010, he was awarded the freedom of the city of Lisburn, along with Ivan Davis, who was a past Deputy Speaker here, and Edwin Poots's father, Charlie Poots. They all achieved the freedom of the city on the same day — all richly deserved.

Seamus had many strings to his bow. He was, for instance, a prison visitor at the Maze prison for some time, and his concern for the welfare of prisoners and staff was very evident at times. He was capable of demonstrating his sense of humour. You might remember when a tunnel was discovered under a fence at the Maze. Seamus stood up at Lisburn council and speculated that he was not too sure if it was for people trying to get in or people trying to get out, because of the benevolent regime that was the public perception of what went on in the Maze at that time.

Seamus was the first non-unionist Mayor of Lisburn, but he even made a joke about that: he said that he was the first one who had a beard. That was Seamus. He was a very gifted debater in the Assembly and in council. He did 38 years' unbroken service on council — more than half a lifetime. I do not know how he stuck it, but he did, and fair play to him. He was a massive contributor to the affairs of Lisburn and to Lisburn council.

Following the Good Friday Agreement in 1998 — in which election Seamus topped the poll in Lisburn, which is fairly unusual for an Alliance person, but he did — he was tipped at that time to assume your job, Mr Speaker. It did not happen for him, but I know that it was a possibility, because he was sitting in my house when he received the call in which he was offered the job by a Northern Ireland Office Minister. He indicated that he would accept it, but it did not happen for him. We heard on the news later that night that somebody else was to take the post.

Seamus held very firm views on matters that sometimes diverged slightly from party policy, but there but for the grace of God go we all.

[Laughter.]

Members might remember back in the 2000s when the Alliance Party had decided to redesignate as unionist for a day. They all did — I was not here — except for Seamus. Seamus was for having none of that; he did not believe in it at all. He also had trouble with some of the social issues of the day: I will not go into that. He stuck to his beliefs, always. There was one thing about him: you always knew where you stood with him, because he would tell you, and he would tell you straight out. That applied to his friends as well as his so-called foes. However, he had no foes outside the Chamber; he just did not. His attitude was, "Leave it in the Chamber". No matter what was said or how vitriolic it got, you could have a cup of tea with Seamus afterwards or drain a wee brandy if you really wanted it.

I want to talk briefly about Seamus as the family man. He was married to Deirdre, who is in the Public Gallery today, for around 40 years. They have four lovely children: Christopher, Brian, Stephen and, of course, Natasha. When I first got to know him, around 1990, Natasha was very ill, as most of you will probably remember. She was suffering from a childhood leukaemia — an illness that did not spare many children. In fact, I think the survival rate was about one in five at the time. However, Natasha survived. She is now in her early 30s — a lovely young lady. She was blessed with a son two or three years ago, which is something that would have been in some doubt at a time because of what had happened to her during her childhood.

Seamus delighted in his family. He was the ultimate family man. While he could be quite scathing in his behaviour here and through politics, his attitude in the family was completely different. I know his son Brian, who may be in the Gallery as well, referred to him as a big "softie". I think that is going a bit far, but he was certainly a lovely family man. He took great pleasure in the family and also in his grandchildren, of which he had three: Rory, Thomas and Emily.

As a family, we shared some very good times with Deirdre and Seamus at weekends and on holidays over the years. We came to be very, very good friends, and we will miss him, as will all of his colleagues. He had a wide family circle — all his friends in Lisburn and his friends here as well. However, we have his legacy as an Alliance representative, a prominent politician and a supreme family man. That is the way I would like to remember him.

I will turn briefly to Ian Adamson, who I did not know very well but whose language skills and intellect I admired. I gather he knew maybe about a dozen languages fluently, including some that some of us had never heard of because they were very old languages. He knew about the history of language, and he could be very severe on our Irish-speaking colleagues because he thought that sometimes the Irish that they were speaking was not true Irish because they had not gone back 5,000 years to find the derivation of it.

He did not particularly favour the Alliance Party, to be honest, especially in his later years. He could be quite severe with us —.

Mervyn Storey (DUP, North Antrim)

Hear, hear.

[Laughter.]

Trevor Lunn (Alliance, Lagan Valley)

But that is politics. He was a decent man, and we miss him just the same. My abiding memory of him — I will finish with this, Mr Speaker — is that I made the trip to the Somme battlefields with the Somme Association a few years ago. Ian, who was a founder member of that association, was our guide for the time we were there. He sat at the front of the bus, and, in between every stop, he told us exactly where we had been and the history of it, where we were going and the history of it and probably what was coming up next. He was an absolute fund of knowledge about the battlefields, the First World War and, particularly, the details of the Somme.

I express my sympathy to everybody who was mentioned today, particularly to Ian's family and, of course, to Seamus's.

Pam Cameron (DUP, South Antrim)

Thank you for the opportunity to pay these tributes to the many Members who passed away in the last three years while this place has not been sitting.

I will be very brief. I just want to mention in particular Wilson Clyde, who was MLA for South Antrim. He was part of my beginnings in my political time with this party, the DUP. Wilson was a bit of a character. He was a farmer and a very proud unionist. He was incredibly loyal in every way, and that was in a very personal sense as well. I had the pleasure of working for him in his constituency office for a few years back in the 2000s. He always turned up with a smile on his face and was always ready to crack some really crummy joke. He was notorious for that. He was an incredibly honest gentleman, he was very loyal in character and he was very much a family man. I know he will be very much missed by his wife, Evelyn, and the entire family circle in the Randalstown and south Antrim area.

John Dallat (Social Democratic and Labour Party, East Londonderry)

I am probably almost in a unique position in that I knew all these Members from my long service in this place. Obviously, I knew some better than others. My two party colleagues Donovan McClelland and P J Bradley I knew in particular, but there were others I knew from serving on Committees.

Donovan McClelland was a lecturer in the University of Ulster. Life could have been very comfortable for him, but he did not choose that. He contributed to the peace process that eventually became the Good Friday Agreement and, in doing that, he brought himself danger. I remember being in his home on several occasions, which was fortified with high fences, bulletproof glass, deadlocks and all sorts of things. However, that was the contribution that he made, which has brought us to where we are today. Of course, you cannot mention Donovan without his wife, Noreen, who served in parallel on an adjacent council and who, today, makes a huge contribution. If I had one wish, it would be that Noreen would join the Assembly one day.

As you know, Mr Speaker — this will be of particular interest to you — Donovan was a Deputy Speaker, and he was a man of severe discipline. He did not suffer fools easily. On one occasion, there was a Member who was particularly troublesome in the morning. I reassure the existing parties that it was not one of their members. In the afternoon, Donovan was in the seat you are sitting in now, and, within 30 seconds, that Member was ejected. I am not sure if it was done according to the rules, but Donovan had had enough of him, and the Member got the message.

I served alongside P J Bradley on the Agriculture Committee, but he also lobbied me many times on behalf of the undocumented in America. I am glad that Sinéad has mentioned that, because that was important to a lot of people. His and Donovan's contributions were invaluable.

I know that Alliance Members and others have spoken about Seamus Close, and I am conscious that his wife Deirdre is here today. Seamus Close was an amazing individual, and I had the pleasure of serving on the Public Accounts Committee with him. He quickly became known as the Rottweiler, not because he went around biting ankles or things like that but because of the way he penetrated bad practice in government Departments. I know that Seamus and other retired members of the Public Accounts Committee met for years after he retired to reminisce about the good old days when they sorted out the financial difficulties of the Assembly. Seamus will be sadly missed, and I wish to record my experience of working with him, particularly on the Public Accounts Committee. I know other Members appreciated it equally.

I could not resume my seat without making reference to Reverend Robert Coulter — Bob, as he allowed me to call him. He was an incredible person who had a vision for the future of the Assembly that went far beyond simply winning the next election.

When I was speaking about Donovan McClelland's difficult life, I neglected to say that I am so sorry that, in recent days, our First Minister and deputy First Minister have received threats. That was the type of life that Donovan McClelland lived in Randalstown in those years. Current Members of the Assembly should never forget that there were a lot of people who went before them and who made huge sacrifices and took enormous risks to bring this place to where it is today.

Trevor Clarke (DUP, South Antrim)

Thank you, Mr Speaker, for the opportunity to reflect on the Members who passed away during the time when the Assembly did not sit. Other Members have mentioned their party colleagues, and I want to talk in particular about my two party colleagues: Oliver Gibson and about Wilson Clyde, who has already been described as a "proud unionist". I echo those comments, because Wilson was very proud of his unionist roots.

Wilson Clyde was from South Antrim, and he and I shared the townland of Groggan. He was one of the biggest encouragements for me to first put my name forward in 2005. When I was a young boy, Wilson's name was on the ballot paper and I was unable to vote for him, so Wilson had been about for a long time: over 20 years in local government and then, from 1998 to 2007, in the Assembly. Behind all that, as my colleague from South Antrim described, Wilson was a family man and a farmer. He spent much of his life building his farm, but, behind all that, he was a community man. He wanted to see the community thrive, and he worked in his community to do that. I pay tribute to Wilson and offer my sympathies to his wife, Evelyn, who has been left behind.

Wilson was a very active member of the party right up until he suffered poor health. He was still an active member of our party into his early 80s and was frequently seen at meetings. He was so loyal that he was probably one of the first ones to be seen there and one of the last ones to leave. That may be because, as my colleague said, he was still telling silly jokes at the end. Wilson was very dependable, and I pay tribute to him for that and for what he has done for the people of South Antrim.

Robbie Butler (UUP, Lagan Valley)

Thank you, Mr Speaker. I put on record my thanks to you for facilitating this moving tribute to former Members of the House. You could not sit here and not be moved by some of the remarks that have been made about former Members who, perhaps, operated in much more difficult, turbulent times than we find ourselves in. I am sure that we will note that we could do a lot better in the future learning from some of the instances of the past.

Before I talk about particular Members, I pay tribute to Sinéad Bradley for speaking so passionately about her father. Sinéad has probably made the most difficult tribute today, and it was fitting for her father. I put on record our regards at this difficult time to another Member for Lagan Valley, Pat Catney, who is burying his mother.

I am one of the new Members. I am not that young, but I did not get the privilege and chance to work with any of the people whom we have spoken of today. However, I had the chance to know two of them in different formats. I knew Rev Bob Coulter through his family. He leaves a legacy not only through his family, which is a credit to him, but through the Member for North Antrim, who is sitting here today thanks to Bob's guidance, and we will be forever grateful for that.

I am minded to pass on my personal respect for Seamus Close. Seamus was a politician in Lisburn when I was not interested in politics. I certainly may not have shared absolutely everything that he aspired to, but I can tell you, hand on heart, that I respected everything he stood for, because he was able to politic in a very mature way. I also knew Seamus — he would not have known it at the time — because his wife, Deirdre, shopped in the butcher's where I worked. There are connections that we do not even know that we have with people, but I knew of him through my admiration of him and through his wife Deirdre.

To close, Mr Speaker, the real reason for me rising is that, I think, the only time that I spoke to Seamus was about six months ago. He was having a meal with his wife and another couple in Hillsborough, and we stopped. He stopped me, because he knew who I was, and I stopped him. We talked for five minutes and made a commitment that we would meet for coffee. I really looked forward to meeting Seamus for coffee, and the reality is that that coffee never happened, so I urge the Chamber to keep short accounts. If you have an appointment to make and you have someone that you need to meet up with, put it in your diary, guys, and make sure that it happens, because, like many, I will not get that chance to have coffee with Seamus.

Robin Newton (DUP, Belfast East)

Thank you, Mr Speaker, for making the time available to carry out the tributes today, some of which are, perhaps, more personal than others. I acknowledge what has been said by my colleagues about Oliver Gibson and Wilson Clyde, two men whom one had to respect.

I hope that the Ulster Unionist Party will forgive me and will not mind if I pay tribute to Dr Ian Adamson, whom I regarded as a personal friend, and I am sure that you did, too, Mr Speaker. We served together for many years in Belfast City Council, where he earned respect across the chamber for his abilities to communicate in an effective but very poignant and, indeed, jocular way, as has been mentioned. As a person, Ian was a man of great distinction. He was a great historian, the author of many books, a man of great intellect in his research work and, as already mentioned, a man who spoke many languages. Yet, he was a man who was extremely humble and could walk comfortably in the presence of kings and in the presence of the most humble. He had the ability to cross the Chamber and be friends, yet he was a strong unionist — a unionist with a capital "U" — and never at any stage did he forsake those unionist principles. He had the ability, as I said, to walk with the most high but also an ability to drill right down into matters affecting the community that we both served in the east of the city. Indeed, it was a privilege to be at meetings with Ian, and it was a good learning experience for me. Ian was interested in and a strong promoter of Ulster Scots, not just the language but the Ulster-Scots life and the Ulster-Scots times.

Many of us knew that Ian was ill, but his sad passing came more quickly than had been anticipated. When it is your time and a village is sealed off to hold the funeral, when the president of the Republic of Ireland makes the journey to that funeral, when you see the respect and silence during the entry of the remains to the church and, indeed, when, as the funeral procession takes place, there are 17 lifts of the coffin, you know that someone special has passed. I extend my sympathy to his wife, Kerry — many of you know that Ian married late in life — and, indeed, to his wider family.

Alex Maskey (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

That concludes the tributes to former Members who passed away during the past three years while the Assembly was not sitting. I also like take the opportunity, on behalf of Members, to extend all of our condolences to our colleague Pat Catney on the sad passing of his mother, Eileen.

Matter of the Day

Alex Maskey (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

Claire Sugden has been given leave to make a statement on the death of Mr Harry Gregg OBE that fulfils the criteria set out in Standing Order 24. If other Members wish to be called, they should rise in their place and continue to do so. All Members called will have up to three minutes to speak on the subject. I remind Members that I will not take any points of order on this or any other matter until at least this item of business has concluded.

Claire Sugden (Independent, East Londonderry)

Today, we mourn the passing of Harry Gregg OBE, who passed away peacefully yesterday surrounded by family. I offer my sincere condolences to his wife, Carolyn, his family, friends and fans across the world.

Leading tributes today, Sir Alex Ferguson described him as:

"a man of great character and a true legend".

Harry was our hero in so many ways. He was a hero on the football pitch — unrivalled. When he had the ball, it was safe in his hands, much to the dismay of the opposing side. In 1957, he was the world's most expensive goalkeeper; a year later, he was voted the best. He made 25 appearances for Northern Ireland. He dominated the nets both in stature and talent. He was a reluctant hero. Following the 1958 Munich air disaster — over 60 years ago — he bravely rescued teammates and passengers, including a young baby.

He put aside concern for his own life to save others. People live today because of Harry Gregg.

Harry did not want to talk too often about the tragedy, but it was clear that he carried the trauma for all of his days. He was the "hero of Munich", but that name gave him no comfort. He is an inspirational hero. Harry's legend is without doubt, and, long before he passed, when others sought to immortalise him in a sculpture, he spoke with unfiltered honesty against the idea; rather, he advocated for a foundation that aimed to inspire young people so that they might follow their dreams, as Harry was able to follow his. The Harry Gregg Foundation, which to this day attracts hundreds of children and young people each week, is his legacy.

Harry was full of character. His height and lean, straight frame and, usually, hat gave him such presence. I met him on a number of occasions. His candid conversations, sharp wit and incredible stories made him the best company. He talked about football and his family. He dearly loved his family, and I know that they will sorely feel his loss today and in the days ahead. Although incredibly humble, he was quietly proud of all his achievements. I know that some here have visited his home outside Castlerock. It is a sight to behold: a private collection of global football history.

Harry was a Coleraine man. Being born in Tobermore and raised on the Bann side gave him his most distinctive and formidable quality. Despite his success, fame and famous friends, he was one of us. To us, Harry Gregg OBE is a legend in every sense of the word, but, to him, he was Harry Gregg of 34 Windsor Avenue, Coleraine: a husband, father and grandfather, and now a "Red Devil" in heaven. Rest easy, Harry, and God bless.

Maurice Bradley (DUP, East Londonderry)

It is with sadness that I remember former Northern Ireland and Manchester United goalkeeper Harry Gregg, who passed away on Sunday evening at the age of 87. Harry passed away peacefully in the Causeway Hospital surrounded by his loving family.

Harry survived the 1958 Munich air crash and was often referred to as the "hero of Munich", after pulling passengers and teammates from the burning wreckage, including Bobby Charlton and Dennis Viollet. It was a tragedy in which 23 people died. Harry Gregg was a member of Sir Matt Busby's team of talented youngsters, who were nicknamed the "Busby Babes". Harry joined them from Doncaster Rovers for a then world-record fee for a goalkeeper of £23,000. On that fateful night of 6 February 1958, the plane carrying the team back from Belgrade crashed in a blizzard after refuelling at Munich. United were returning from a European game when the aeroplane in which they were travelling crashed while attempting to take off from a slush-covered runway. He escaped the burning wreckage but went back in and brought Vera Lukic, the pregnant wife of a Yugoslav diplomat, and her young daughter, Vesna, to safety. He also attended to Matt Busby and fellow Northern Ireland international Jackie Blanchflower. In an age in which the words "hero" and "legend" are bandied about loosely, Harry was a true legend and a true hero. Not only was Harry a legend at Manchester United, where he kept 48 clean sheets during his nine years at Old Trafford but he starred for Northern Ireland at the World Cup in Sweden in 1958, helping Northern Ireland to reach the quarter-finals. He was named goalkeeper of the tournament. Harry used to tell me that, had Peter Doherty, the manager, registered himself to play in the competition, they could have won it, such was the regard that he had for Peter Doherty.

Harry was awarded an MBE in 1995, followed by an OBE in 2019. He was a straight talker. He told you it as he saw it. I spoke with him for the last time on Thursday. He recalled a visit that he had had from Arlene Foster as First Minister as one of his fondest memories. I loved listening to Harry, especially when he started to recount his football stories. He described them in such detail that you would nearly believe that you were there. He was a marvellous man to listen to, and I enjoyed his company.

I will continue with a quote from Harry from 2008:

"I'm Henry Gregg, 34 Windsor Avenue, who played football. Who was useful at it on good days and rubbish at it on bad days. That's what I want to be remembered for — not something that happened on the spur of the moment."

Harry will long be remembered for his love and passion for the game. He enjoyed watching young players coming through the Harry Gregg Foundation. To explain the breadth of that foundation, there are players there from Ballymena, Antrim, Dungiven, Limavady and all over the north-west and north-east of the Province who come down to Coleraine to take part every Saturday morning; it is a treat to watch. That is what Harry would like to be remembered for: his belief and passion for the game or, as he described it, "the beautiful game". I extend all our deepest sympathies to his wife, Carolyn, son, John, daughters, immediate family and extended family circle.

Caoimhe Archibald (Sinn Féin, East Londonderry)

I extend my deepest condolences to the family and friends of sporting legend Harry Gregg, who died last night. Being from Coleraine and coming from a family of United fans, I grew up knowing about Harry Gregg. His story has inspired many from the local area as well as across the world. Harry's playing career started at Windsor Park Swifts, and he enjoyed spells at Linfield and Coleraine before moving to Doncaster Rovers at the age of only 18. However, it was his then record-breaking transfer fee for a goalkeeper of £23,000 to Manchester United that enabled Harry to showcase his talent. As one of the "Busby Babes", Harry cemented his reputation as one of the best goalkeepers in the world, keeping 48 clean sheets in 247 appearances during one of the club's most successful periods.

Harry survived the Munich air disaster in 1958, showing great bravery by returning to the plane to rescue teammates and other passengers, including a pregnant woman and small child. He returned to play only two weeks after the crash and kept a clean sheet. He went on to play for Northern Ireland at the 1958 World Cup, where he reached the quarter-finals and was voted the best goalkeeper at the tournament. His legacy will live on through the Harry Gregg Foundation, which was founded in 2015 and continues to help to inspire young people to get involved in football and to engage in an active lifestyle. My deepest sympathies go to Harry's family and friends. Ar dheis Dé go raibh a anam dílis.

John Dallat (Social Democratic and Labour Party, East Londonderry)

I was in the privileged position of being a member of Coleraine council for over 30 years, and, if I was asked to highlight one of the greatest events I experienced during that time, I would say that it was meeting Harry Gregg. I am not into sport big time, but I am into sporting people who have made a huge contribution to this world. His sporting achievements have been well documented, and his heroism at Munich is known the world over. The fact that he came from Windsor Avenue, a working-class area of Coleraine, makes me particularly proud.

Harry Gregg was a working-class man, and, all through the most difficult years of the Troubles, he was well above the unsettled state that we survived in. My deepest sympathy to his family and to his friends. Windsor Avenue has lost a hero, Coleraine has lost an icon, and the world has lost someone who was very special not just to Manchester United and Northern Ireland but to the people as a whole. That is one of the reasons why Harry Gregg stands in such an elevated position: he was above politics, he was above sport, and he made a huge contribution to this world.

Mike Nesbitt (UUP, Strangford)

I will not pretend that I was some sort of bosom pal of Harry Gregg, but I had the honour and pleasure in equal measure of meeting him a few times, most recently during a visit to his home outside Castlerock with a small number of people, one of whom was Liam Beckett. If you know Liam and you knew Harry, you will understand that, after a rather promising start, when I got out the full word "Hello", it was something of a challenge to insert a third syllable into the next two hours of conversation. Joel Taggart was there that day, and I heard him on the BBC this morning saying Harry would be very cross if we started with Munich rather than concentrating on his football career. And what a career that was. Of course, we think of George Best as our greatest, but let us not underestimate how Harry Gregg became the most expensive goalkeeper in the history of world football when Manchester United brought him to Old Trafford from Doncaster. Time after time, he showed us why, not just for his club but for his country.

Earlier today, Sammy McIlroy, the last of the "Busby Babes", said Harry had the courage of a lion. In the 1958 World Cup finals, he was voted goalkeeper of the tournament, outperforming the great Russian Lev Yashin, whom many still believe to be the greatest goalkeeper of all time. As somebody lucky enough to have commentated on Northern Ireland the other two times they made World Cup finals, I think that it is easy to forget that, of the three, the '58 squad was probably the best. It made the quarter-finals of the World Cup in Sweden, a squad that included some of Northern Ireland's all-time greatest. There was Gregg himself, of course, Bertie Peacock, Peter McParland, Jimmy McIlroy, Billy Bingham and Danny Blanchflower. The FIFA all-star team of the tournament in 1958 contained six Brazilians, two Frenchmen, a Swede and two Northern Irishmen in the best team in the world: Harry Gregg and Danny Blanchflower. Blanchflower's brother, Jackie, was one of the Manchester United players whom Harry Gregg saved in Munich just a few months before.

"Only a fool would do what I did",

said Harry Gregg, but that belies a fundamental truth about him, which was identified by George Best, who said:

"On that occasion, it wasn't just an act of courage. It was acts of goodness."

Harry Gregg was a very good man. I can think of no country in the world that would not rejoice in saying, "He was a son of this country". Our condolences go to his family, his friends and to all his admirers, many of whom never knew him and never saw him play but respect him nonetheless. A good man has gone.

Chris Lyttle (Alliance, Belfast East)

On behalf of the Alliance Party, I pay tribute to the legendary Northern Ireland and Manchester United goalkeeper Harry Gregg. First and foremost, I offer my sincere condolences, thoughts and prayers to the Gregg family and hope that the tributes paid in the Assembly today go some way to offer some comfort for their loss.

Harry Gregg was a member of the legendary Manchester United "Busby Babes", playing 247 times for the club, and he is part of a rich heritage of Northern Irishmen who have graced the "theatre of dreams". He also played 25 times for Northern Ireland and, as mentioned, was a star of the 1958 World Cup. He was voted best goalkeeper in a side captained by Danny Blanchflower that reached the quarter-finals of the competition.

Harry will be remembered for his bravery during the Munich air disaster, when he courageously and without second thought helped to rescue teammates and survivors from the wreckage. As mentioned, Harry's reluctance to accept the recognition he received for that act gives some insight into the humility and humanity of the man and, indeed, into his determination to ensure that that tragic accident did not define his life or the life of his teammates. I think he can proudly recognise that he achieved that aim. Forever recognised as one of the greatest goalkeepers in the history of the beautiful game and loved by his family, Harry Gregg was an inspiration on and off the football pitch to so many.

Jim Allister (Traditional Unionist Voice, North Antrim)

Northern Ireland has been blessed with many sporting giants not just in football but in many disciplines, but towering among them, undoubtedly, is Harry Gregg. All that has been said about him today in tribute is well deserved for his sporting achievements alone, but, of course, it is not just his triumph on the football field that made him the memorable son of this land of whom we are all proud.

It was also his triumph in the adversity of the Munich airfield, where he showed the selfless courage that most of us can only dream about. With no thought for his own safety, and thinking only of those who were in great peril, he conducted himself in a way that ensured that some people lived who otherwise would have died in the Munich disaster.

Many of us — I suspect maybe all of us — in the Chamber have no recollection of the Munich disaster because it happened so long ago, yet it is embedded in the consciousness of us all. Why? Because of Harry Gregg. It was that selfless behaviour — that heroic behaviour — that made Harry Gregg one of whom we are all so proud, not just for his sporting prowess but for what he did on that occasion. Yet, through all that, as the House has heard, he was a man of immense modesty, self-effacing and looking nowhere for glory. I met him only once or twice, but it was a privilege to meet him and be in the presence of someone who so earned the respect of this country and whom we are all so glad was indeed a son of Northern Ireland. He was one of us; he lived amongst us; he came from us. He never forgot and was very proud of his roots. He was anxious to remind us all, quite properly, of where he came from. There were no airs and graces. He was straight up and down, straightforward, and exactly the sort of Ulsterman who personifies much of the greatness of this Province.

I want to add to the expressions of sympathy and condolence to his family and many friends. He will be much missed, but not forgotten.

George Robinson (DUP, East Londonderry)

First and foremost, I express my sincere sympathy to the family of local football legend Harry Gregg OBE. It was with huge sadness that I learned of the passing of a man who could be described only as a legend and a hero. I consider it a huge privilege to have personally known Harry and his passion for his hometown team, Coleraine Football Club, which, ironically, won the league cup the night before his untimely death.

Although Harry was much too modest a man to call himself a hero, this is simply the truth. During the awful events at Munich, which robbed the world of football of some of its rising stars, Harry Gregg put his own safety aside to try to rescue friends and colleagues. For me, that labelled Harry as a hero, even if he did not want that title. In the years after Harry became a legend of the Manchester United team, he was a hero, most of all, in his Northern Ireland home. He never saw himself as anything but Harry Gregg. That is what made him such a special individual.

While it is his family who will miss him the most, I hope that it will be of comfort to them to know how greatly appreciated Harry was as an individual throughout Northern Ireland and far beyond. Today, Northern Ireland has lost a gentleman, a sporting hero and an inspiration, but, through the Harry Gregg Foundation, his name will live long in his native land. Again, I extend my deepest sympathy to all his family.

Sinéad Ennis (Sinn Féin, South Down)

I thank Claire Sugden for bringing this Matter of the Day to the House, and to give us the opportunity to pay tribute to Harry. As a Manchester United fan, I, too, feel a sense of loss. I want to extend my deepest sympathies to the family and friends of Harry Gregg.

Harry played for United during arguably one the most successful periods in the club's history. He is considered one of the club's best ever keepers. Despite being known for his talent, as Members alluded to, Harry will always be remembered as one of the unsung heroes of the infamous Munich air disaster. Following the horrendous events of that ill-fated journey, Harry set about pulling people from the wreckage, without a thought for his own safety. We heard other Members allude to the fact that he rescued a pregnant mother and her other child, whom he later met. Harry also rescued the great Bobby Charlton, Jackie Blanchflower and his manager, Matt Busby, who was seriously injured.

By any standards, Harry Gregg was a hero, but he never sought any recognition for that, and he was a very private, extraordinarily ordinary person. He was a hero who wanted to be remembered for football. George Best best summed Harry up when he said:

"Bravery is one thing but what Harry did was about more than bravery. It was about goodness."

Harry Gregg was a good person.

Justin McNulty (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Newry and Armagh)

Harry Gregg was a sporting icon. He was so much more than a sporting icon or a sporting man; he was a man of great dignity, humility and strength. He was a family man, touched by personal tragedy as well, with the loss of his first wife and his daughter through cancer. Harry was a "Busby Babe". I am a GAA man, but, in my formative years, I was also a Man U fan. I grew up admiring such players as Sammy McIlroy, Mal Donaghy and others and their exploits with the Northern Ireland team in Mexico '86. Sammy McIIroy said today that Harry was a man with the bravery of a lion, on and off the pitch. He was a man who, in 1958, climbed back into a burning aircraft in an effort to save his teammates' lives. Although Harry was a reluctant hero, what he did that night in Munich says everything you need to know about the man. Rest in peace, Harry. Condolences to his family, friends and fans.

Assembly Business

Alex Maskey (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

As with similar motions, the motion on Committee membership will be treated as a business motion, and there will be no debate.

Resolved:

That Ms Martina Anderson be appointed as a member of the Committee for Infrastructure and as a member of the Committee for Justice. — [Mr O'Dowd.]

Alex Maskey (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

As with similar motions, the motion on Committee membership will be treated as a business motion, and there will be no debate.

Resolved:

That Mr Gary Middleton replace Mr Harry Harvey as a member of the Committee on Procedures; and that Mr Harry Harvey replace Mr Gary Middleton as a member of the Public Accounts Committee. — [Mr K Buchanan.]

Committee Business

Alex Maskey (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

The Business Committee has agreed that there should be a single debate, during which Members should address both motions. Following the debate, I will put the question on each of the motions separately to the House.

The following motion stood in the Order Paper:

That the Sea Fish Licensing Order (Northern Ireland) 2019 (SR 2019/61) be annulled. — [Mr McAleer (The Chairperson of the Committee for Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs).]

Motion not moved.

Alex Maskey (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

The next item of business in the Order Paper is Question Time. I therefore propose, by leave of the Assembly, to suspend the sitting until 2.00 pm.

The sitting was suspended at 1.25 pm.

On resuming —

Oral Answers to Questions — The Executive Office

Alex Maskey (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

Members, it is time for questions to the Executive Office. We will start with listed questions. Questions 4 and 8 have been withdrawn. Topical questions 1 and 9 have been withdrawn. We have not been informed of any groupings.

Gary Middleton (DUP, Foyle)

1. Mr Middleton asked the First Minister and deputy First Minister for an update on the Executive subcommittee on Brexit. (AQO 110/17-22)

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

Before I respond, I take the opportunity to acknowledge the passing of Harry Gregg, who died today. Harry was a great sporting icon and role model. My thoughts are with his family and friends at this time.

I am pleased to advise the Member that the Brexit subcommittee is firmly established and working to ensure that our interests are being protected and that we get the best deal for us. The subcommittee has met twice, and further meetings are scheduled over the coming days and weeks. At our first meeting, we received an update from officials on what they identified as the key challenges facing us. We also agreed a work schedule to ensure that we are focusing our efforts on the most appropriate areas, although it was recognised that our consideration of issues will be informed by the timetable of the negotiations processes. At our second meeting, we had a focused consideration of the issues around the movement of goods east-west and west-east. Given the importance of that issue, we will give further consideration to our position at the next meeting.

We also considered the implications for services North/South, as well as how we can appropriately engage with stakeholders in recognition of the established and ongoing stakeholder engagement undertaken by the various Departments. We also received a paper from officials on draft negotiating principles for the Executive that will be discussed in detail at our next meeting.

Gary Middleton (DUP, Foyle)

The deputy First Minister highlighted the importance of ease of trade east-west and west-east. The agri-food sector in Northern Ireland is crucial to our economy. Her party's position is that there should be no checks or infrastructure, but does she agree that, if there is an insistence that there be checks, they should not be done on this side of the Irish Sea?

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

I do not wish to see barriers east-west or North/South. We do not wish to see any kind of barrier to trade. We want to make sure that we have a prosperous economy and everybody has an opportunity to flourish. The Member mentioned the agri-food sector and its significance to our economy. We have to do everything that we can to protect the sector. The First Minister and I have written to the Prime Minister, Boris Johnson. I am seeking clarity around some of the issues. We have a protocol that needs to be protected, but we also have to guard against the fact that we could come to the end of this year and still not have a deal. We need to protect our local interests. We are determined to work together, and we have sought clarity from Boris Johnson on a range of issues and hope to get a response in the weeks ahead.

Matthew O'Toole (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast South)

The Ireland protocol sets out a joint committee on the implementation of the protocol. It sets out a specialised committee that will report to the joint committee on the operation of the protocol. Once the protocol is operational, it envisages a joint consultative working group on the operation of the protocol. Have officials advised her or the First Minister of the membership of those committees and whether there will be Executive representation? If not, when will we find out?

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

We are working our way through the detail of all those things. The First Minister and I attended the Joint Ministerial Council (JMC) meeting in Cardiff a few weeks ago, at which we raised those issues, including that of representation. The Executive voice needs to be heard as part of the discussions. How it is organised and how it will operate are not yet definitive, but suffice it to say that we will insist that our voice is heard and that we are part of the discussions at each stage of the negotiations. It is important, as negotiations move — we know that they can move very quickly — that our voice is heard and that we can adapt to be part of them. That is why we are meeting as an Executive subcommittee on Brexit every week. We are trying to get up to speed and to make sure that all Executive Ministers are involved in the discussions and decisions that we need to take.

Martina Anderson (Sinn Féin, Foyle)

Given the deep and genuine concerns and the widespread discussions that are taking place among a range of stakeholders representing the economy, social justice and constitutional change, plus rights advocates, such as trade unions and the Committee on the Administration of Justice (CAJ), will the Brexit subcommittee, in the context of participatory democracy, undertake engagements with such relevant stakeholders to listen, possibly learn and discuss their views on Brexit?

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

We absolutely recognise the importance of stakeholder engagement. Well-seasoned, long-established mechanisms are already in place to engage with stakeholders in each Department. The subcommittee aims to build on those. Each Department will continue to engage with its stakeholders, and the subcommittee will make arrangements to receive briefings from key stakeholders as it feels appropriate.

The subcommittee will keep stakeholder engagement under review, and we will consider detailed stakeholder events at certain points between the phases of the negotiations. We have to adapt to the process as it unfolds. At the last meeting of the Brexit subcommittee, officials committed to bringing forward proposals on stakeholder engagement for consideration, and that will build on the stakeholder engagement that is already established in each Department.

Andrew Muir (Alliance, North Down)

Will the deputy First Minister give a guarantee that the Executive and all the Ministers will act faithfully to implement the Ireland/Northern Ireland protocol?

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

The protocol is established. It is in place and is an integral part of the withdrawal agreement, so it has to be adhered to. I am committed to making sure that that is the case. That is why we have a Brexit subcommittee: it is important that every party represented on the Executive is part of that. Our duty is to try to protect the interests and livelihoods of the people who live here and to ensure that citizens' rights are not diminished and that our economy can flourish. That includes the implementation of the protocol, making sure that we have everything in place that needs to be in place. There is still a danger that, at the end of the year, we could have a no-deal scenario.

Philip McGuigan (Sinn Féin, North Antrim)

2. Mr McGuigan asked the First Minister and deputy First Minister to outline progress on the Executive action plan for tackling paramilitarism. (AQO 111/17-22)

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

While the Department of Justice takes the overall lead on coordinating the Executive-wide action plan for tackling paramilitarism, our Department has lead responsibility for delivering on four of the 38 actions in the plan. Good progress has been made on actions B1, B2 and B3. That includes the Civil Service implementing the employers' guidance, which sets out best practice in recruiting people with conflict-related convictions. Access to financial services and travel advice have also been improved. Specifically, in relation to action B4 — the communities in transition project — the Department is nearing the end of the process to appoint delivery partners to deliver individual projects across eight B4 areas. It is anticipated that all projects will be on the ground by April this year.

The New Decade, New Approach deal includes a renewed commitment from all parties to tackle paramilitarism and should be a priority in our revised Programme for Government. We look forward to working together across the Executive in support of this challenging and ambitious programme of work.

Philip McGuigan (Sinn Féin, North Antrim)

I thank the joint First Minister for her answer. Will the Executive Office review the outworking of the plan to ensure increased community input and public confidence?

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

The previous Executive developed a cross-cutting action plan to deal with paramilitarism and organised crime, and that is constantly reviewed. The plan placed a focus on developing a range of criminal justice and community empowerment interventions to tackle paramilitarism, criminality and organised crime.

Dealing with criminality in all its manifestations requires a whole-community response, and I am acutely aware that people on the ground need to see, feel and experience change. As the basis for maximising public confidence, I am committed to working with all Executive colleagues and with those in public, civic and community life to ensure that no person is held back from realising their full potential as a consequence of paramilitarism or organised criminality in their community. Only by working together will we create a better future where there is no place for paramilitarism, criminality or organised crime in our communities.

Alex Maskey (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

I call Trevor Lunn.

Trevor Lunn (Alliance, Lagan Valley)

Thank you, Mr Speaker, but the Minister has already beautifully answered the question I was about to ask.

Jim Allister (Traditional Unionist Voice, North Antrim)

I hope that it is agreed that it is important that the victims of paramilitarism should not be retraumatised. Does the deputy First Minister accept that the murder of Paul Quinn was a paramilitary killing? What steps has she therefore taken to require the Finance Minister to publicly acknowledge that Paul Quinn was not a criminal?

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

Conor Murphy has unreservedly condemned the murder of Paul Quinn. The people who murdered Paul Quinn are criminals and need to be brought to justice. He has called on anyone with information on the murder to bring it to the gardaí or the PSNI. I know that Conor very much regrets the comments that he made in the aftermath of Paul's murder. He has apologised for his remarks unreservedly. He has withdrawn his remarks, and his apology was heartfelt and sincere. He has offered to meet the Quinn family at a time and place of their convenience, as has Mary Lou McDonald.

Jim Allister (Traditional Unionist Voice, North Antrim)

He has not said —.

Alex Maskey (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

Order. I call Justin McNulty.

Justin McNulty (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Newry and Armagh)

I acknowledge the presence of two incredibly brave people in the Public Gallery today: Breege and Stephen Quinn. I was pleased to see the First Minister and the deputy First Minister at the meeting of the Executive Office Committee confirm that, in their view, Paul Quinn was not a criminal. Will the deputy First Minister confirm that that view is held by all Ministers in the Executive, including the Finance Minister, Conor Murphy?

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

Again, I have said very clearly that Conor has apologised for his remarks and has unreservedly withdrawn them and that his apology was heartfelt and sincere. I believe the best place to deal with these issues, which are very sensitive —

[Interruption.]

Alex Maskey (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

Order, please, in the Chamber.

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

I believe that the best way to deal with these issues, which are very sensitive — we are talking about a mother who has been hurt; I, as a mother, cannot even begin to understand how you deal with that trauma — is on a one-to-one basis, and Conor Murphy is very happy to meet Breege Quinn at the earliest opportunity.

Doug Beattie (UUP, Upper Bann)

Given that the funding for the action plan on tackling paramilitarism, organised crime and criminality is due to end at the end of the 2020 financial year, will the deputy First Minister outline what discussions she has had with the Finance Minister about that plan and the funding for it carrying on?

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

We have not had any discussions with the Finance Minister on that yet. We are looking at all these things, and we have a scheduled meeting with the Finance Minister to discuss our priorities in the Executive Office. As we approach the Budget, we hope to get positive outcomes across the whole range of issues, not least funding for that area of work.

Joanne Bunting (DUP, Belfast East)

Does the deputy First Minister agree that, in circumstances where departmental agencies and arm's-length bodies afford access to these people in another role, they afford credibility to those who have been engaged and that, therefore, permits them to maintain coercion and control in areas where the tackling paramilitarism programme is trying to reduce all such influence? In circumstances where the Parades Commission, the Housing Executive, the councils and the police continue to meet these people, it affords them a status, a credibility and an access that the average citizen is not afforded.

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

We all have a duty — we, as an Executive, have that duty — to bring forward work that allows communities to transition and makes sure that nobody is held back, that we lift communities up and that we create distractions to make sure that young people are not drawn towards those elements in society. Nobody should be held back, so, if there are particular issues around arm's-length bodies that the Member wishes to write to me about, I am more than happy to receive that.

Maolíosa McHugh (Sinn Féin, West Tyrone)

3. Mr McHugh asked the First Minister and deputy First Minister for an update on Civil Service reform set out in New Decade, New Approach. (AQO 112/17-22)

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

We are very mindful of the commitments in the 'New Decade, New Approach' document, including the commitment towards further reform of the Civil Service. Officials will bring forward proposals for the establishment of a dedicated programme to coordinate and drive forward that work in a formal and structured way. Civil Service reform will require discussion by the Executive, and we will keep Members updated as that work is taken forward.

Maolíosa McHugh (Sinn Féin, West Tyrone)

Will the review of the Civil Service be independent and draw on best practice?

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

Part 1 of the 'New Decade, New Approach' document refers to "further reform" of the Civil Service. The Executive have not yet determined how they wish to see that taken forward. There are priority themes underpinned by actions that are interlinked, and they would, in my view, be key principles going forward: leadership from within the Civil Service at all levels and from Ministers; collaboration; working across all Departments and Ministers; a high-performing Civil Service; an outcomes-focused Civil Service that is well placed to deliver on our Programme for Government commitments; an inclusive, dynamic and innovative workforce in which diversity is truly valued; and a great place to work that can attract new and young talent. Those are the aims that we and, I am sure, all of us want to support and build on.

Colin McGrath (Social Democratic and Labour Party, South Down)

Given that a review often means a reduction in staff and extra responsibility for those that are in place, and recognising the fact that there is a current Civil Service pay dispute, what action is the deputy First Minister and the whole Executive undertaking to ensure that we value our Civil Service staff and that we pay them a decent wage?

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

I know that the Finance Minister has been engaging with Civil Service side in relation to the pay dispute, and we hope to get to the point where we have a positive resolution. We must value our staff; we must invest in our staff. That is really important. The Chair of the Committee asked that question, and I want to work with the Chair around the proposals that we are going to develop in due course around how we can reform and do better in the Civil Service.

Clare Bailey (Green, Belfast South)

5. Ms Bailey asked the First Minister and deputy First Minister, given that the current tenure of the Attorney General is due to expire in June 2020, what plans are in place to fill this post. (AQO 114/17-22)

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

We are aware that the Attorney General's term of appointment will expire on 30 June and recently met with him to discuss various issues. We are currently considering the position and will provide an update to the Executive in due course.

Clare Bailey (Green, Belfast South)

To follow on, I would like to ask the question that has been unanswered so far by the First Minister and deputy First Minister: do they have any concerns about potential conflicts of interest in relation to the Attorney General's office, given his recent appointment as a temporary deputy High Court judge?

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

I am assuming that the Member is referring to a question for written answer, and perhaps she has not received the answer yet, but I am happy to respond. We are aware of the potential conflict of interest that could arise between the role of the Attorney General and the role of temporary High Court judge. The temporary High Court judge application process provided for a conflict of interest declaration where applicants were required to declare interests and potential conflicts.

I also understand that, at the point of deployment in each case, the potential temporary High Court judge to be allocated will be assessed individually by the Lord Chief Justice on a case-by-case basis. The First Minister and I are keen to ensure that there are no conflicts of interest or perceptions of conflicts of interest that may undermine the Attorney General's office or the Executive.

Gerry Kelly (Sinn Féin, Belfast North)

Will you go into some detail as to the process of recruitment for the new Attorney General?

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

The appointment of the Attorney General is legislated for by the Justice Act 2002. The legislation determines that the Attorney General is appointed by the First Minister and myself acting jointly, and we are currently looking at options on how best to take that forward.

Patsy McGlone (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Mid Ulster)

Does the Minister agree that the changes to the guidance of the office of Attorney General need to be reviewed to ensure that there is no potential for conflict or, indeed, any influence, political or otherwise, on the scope, role or work of that office?

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

In the previous answer, I said that we have to get to a point where there are no conflicts of interest, real or perceived, so we need to look at all those things. In the current guidance that is at play, we will be able to look at all those things around an appointment process if and when we replace the Attorney General.

Trevor Lunn (Alliance, Lagan Valley)

The Minister is being very coy about hiding behind procedure and so on. Does she agree with me that it is an absolutely clear conflict of interest for somebody to hold the position of Attorney General and also be a High Court judge? This should not be allowed to proceed. It should be stopped at source.

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

I am sure that the Member will agree that we should not just throw caution to the wind and just go with our guts. We need to follow process, and I am determined to follow process. That is why we have sought additional information around the conflict of interest. Once I am satisfied about that, we will be more than happy to move forward and take new action.

Christopher Stalford (DUP, Belfast South)

Does the deputy First Minister agree that it is absolutely imperative that any appointment process to replace the Attorney General is not meddled with by politicians trying to make political points?

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

I agree that any public appointment process needs to follow the due process.

[Interruption.]

Alex Maskey (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

Order, Members.

Liz Kimmins (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

6. Ms Kimmins asked the First Minister and deputy First Minister to outline progress in relation to the appointment of a compact civic advisory panel. (AQO 115/17-22)

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

The compact civic advisory panel will be reconstituted through a public appointments process, which will be scheduled for completion within the six-month period as required by the New Decade, New Approach deal. There will be an important role for the panel in advising the Executive on approaches to engagement on complex policy issues. An important initial task is, therefore, to review the existing remit of the compact civic advisory panel and to design a specification for the role of panel members to set out the qualities and experience we will be seeking from potential candidates. In the light of the panel's remit to convene one citizens' assembly each year, we will also look at good practice elsewhere.

Liz Kimmins (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

I thank the joint First Minister for her response. Given the challenges facing the Executive, how will issues be prioritised to ensure maximum strategic benefit from the panel's work?

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

The Member is right that there are many issues facing the Executive, not least the budgetary situation. That said, it is essential that the Executive's decision-making is as informed as it can be. In going forward, it is essential that the Executive listen to, engage with and work with the broadest range of stakeholders. Members of the compact civic advisory panel will bring an expertise and an insight that can only but inform the work of the Executive. It also evidences a step change in how we now do government. On that note, I want to encourage as many people as possible who feel that they have the skills to apply. It is essential that we see an advisory panel that is reflective of all our society in all its diversity.

John Stewart (UUP, East Antrim)

When the panel was announced in December 2016, the Executive Office stated:

"The panel will consider specific strategic issues relevant to the Programme for Government and report to the Executive."

Given that the deputy First Minister has had three years to think about this, what are the top three strategic issues that she would like the panel to consider?

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

The Member will know that, yes, it was put in place in 2016, but, because the Assembly did not sit, the work was not progressed, so we collectively have a job of work to do. We are a collective Executive. We are a five-party coalition, so the five parties need to sit down and discuss what issues we can consider and what will be the first item that the compact civic advisory panel could take forward. The panel that we nominate and put forward will also have ideas, so it is time for a wee bit of outside thinking. If we are going to demonstrate that the Assembly is in a new mode and that we are working in a different way, we need to work together as a five-party Executive.

Jemma Dolan (Sinn Féin, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

7. Ms Dolan asked the First Minister and deputy First Minister for an indicative time frame for the next meeting of the North/South Ministerial Council and the British-Irish Council. (AQO 116/17-22)

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

The next meeting of the North/South Ministerial Council is planned to take place after the formation of a new Irish Government. The next scheduled summit meeting of the British-Irish Council will be hosted by the Scottish Government in June.

Jemma Dolan (Sinn Féin, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

I thank the joint First Minister for her answer. Will the Executive Office ensure that the implications of Brexit are addressed as part of the ongoing work of those bodies?

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

The UK's withdrawal from the EU and the practical application of the withdrawal agreement will have implications for North/South cooperation as defined under strand two of the Good Friday Agreement. They are not specifically issues that can be addressed solely through the North/South Ministerial Council. However, as has already been identified within the agreed protocol, as part of the withdrawal agreement, it is envisaged that the NSMC and the North/South implementation bodies will play their role. The practicalities and the outworkings of the protocol, of course, still need to be considered and will be included on the agenda for discussion at relevant NSMC meetings. New Decade, New Approach commits the Brexit subcommittee to initiate an assessment of the impact of Brexit on the institutions North/South and on east-west relationships. Consideration of that issue has been included in its forward work programme. I am of the view that the North/South Ministerial Council meetings will present an opportunity for Ministers North and South to discuss Brexit issues that may impact on their agreed area of cooperation.

Jim Allister (Traditional Unionist Voice, North Antrim)

If the ungovernable Irish Republic ever obtains a Government and if Sinn Féin is part of that Government, when it comes to the North/South bodies, will the deputy First Minister have the same concerns of imbalance that she and her party expressed in regard to perceived DUP influence on the Conservative Government? If it turns out that her party is sitting on both sides of the table in the North/South bodies, will she then have any concerns about balance or was that just faux outrage?

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

Given his legal profession, you would think that the Member would be more in tune with the political situation. The very different situation in terms of the DUP's confidence and supply deal was the fact that the British Government have jurisdiction here but the Irish Government do not. I would have thought that your legal mind would have picked up on that.

I see no contradiction whatsoever in power-sharing and making the Assembly and Executive work; and, at the same time, articulating my ideological position of a united Ireland. There is no contradiction in that whatsoever. Let me also say this: no one has anything to fear from the future or from political change on this island.

Órlaithí Flynn (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

9. Ms Flynn asked the First Minister and deputy First Minister how they will contribute to the Executive’s working group on mental well-being and resilience. (AQO 118/17-22)

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

In recognition of the importance of its work, the First Minister and I will attend meetings of the working group on mental well-being, resilience and suicide prevention. Our Department, through funding programmes such as Urban Villages and Communities in Transition, supports a wide range of projects that contribute to the mental well-being and resilience of young people and adults. We hope to be able to contribute insights through the experience of those programmes and share models of good practice.

Órlaithí Flynn (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

I thank the Minister for her answer. Will the working group give a commitment that it will help to fully implement the 'Protect Life 2' suicide prevention strategy and to secure the cross-departmental working that is required to reduce the problem and prevent people from suffering with mental health problems and suicidal ideation?

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

First, I acknowledge the good work of the Member on this issue; she has been a champion on mental health issues. The First Minister and I are committed to working with Executive colleagues to ensure that there is maximum cross-departmental working to reduce the problem, to prevent people from suffering with mental health problems and to provide support at the point of need.

As a former Health Minister, I am very aware of the scale of the problem. I am also acutely aware that so many across society live with mental ill health, as so tragically reflected in our worrying levels of suicide, self-harm and substance abuse. Many in the Chamber, and their families, have also been touched by the issue. The clear commitment from the Executive to each and every person is that your mental health is valued, that you are valued and that you are not alone. Therefore, the First Minister and I are committed, along with Executive colleagues, to making sure that we work continuously to maximise cross-departmental working.

Dolores Kelly (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Upper Bann)

Minister, I am sure that everyone will welcome the collaborative approach by the Executive to tackling mental ill health. Of course, it is important to get upstream because many know the contributing factors. What additional budget will we expect to see next week going to mental ill health and tackling the causes of it?

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

I do not have a specific figure, mostly because that work will come under the remit of the Department of Health. However, we will all input into it; we have focused an Executive priority on it. I mentioned a number of programmes across our Department that contribute to trying to promote mental well-being, such as Urban Villages and Communities in Transition. As we know, poor mental health arises as a result of a combination of factors, so we need a whole-society, cross-departmental approach to be able to deal with it. I am quite sure that, if you wrote to the Minister of Health, he could give you the actual figure.

Mike Nesbitt (UUP, Strangford)

The Minister will be aware that, in 'Protect Life 2', the target is a reduction of 10% in suicides over a specific period, and that is based on World Health Organization guidelines. Does the Minister accept that that is, effectively, applying an industry norm to an incredibly abnormal situation and that the only acceptable target is zero suicides?

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

I absolutely agree about zero suicides. We have to do everything that we can to support people who find themselves living with mental ill health. It is also a fact — I am quite sure that the Member is aware of this — that many who die by suicide are not known to mental health services; they have never sought support, so there is a societal problem that we need to address. We need to encourage people to say that it is OK not to feel OK and that it is OK to ask for help. That is a collective responsibility that we have as elected representatives, along with the professionals who work on the ground, supporting and counselling people.

William Humphrey (DUP, Belfast North)

I agree with the comments that the Minister has just made. I welcome the joined-up approach across government to this hugely difficult issue. It is important that Departments here, working with the likes of the Public Health Agency, councils and service providers, come together and get a strategy to deal with the issue across Northern Ireland.

As a governor of two schools, I know that a huge amount of front-line education money in the budget of schools is being used to buy in professional help. I ask the Minister that her Department and those across government look at that issue and allow education moneys to be spent on education.

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

I am happy to take that issue up with the Minister of Education.

Alex Maskey (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

That ends the period for listed questions. We move on to the 15 minutes for topical questions.

Rachel Woods (Green, North Down)

T2. Miss Woods asked the First Minister and deputy First Minister for an update on the anti-poverty strategy that the Executive have committed to develop and implement in the New Decade, New Approach agreement. (AQT 82/17-22)

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

It is still in the early stages of development. I am happy to write to the Member to give her more detail. Sorry, it is remiss of me not to welcome the Member to the Chamber. This is the first time that I have had a chance to engage with her.

We have to be serious about tackling poverty, and, again, a holistic approach has to be taken. I am determined to make sure that we get the strategy delivered within the time frame set out in the 'New Decade, New Approach' document.

Rachel Woods (Green, North Down)

I thank the Minister for her answer. Paragraph 4.11 on page 30 of 'New Decade, New Approach' states clearly that the future strategic-level programme and the anti-poverty strategy:

"will be underpinned by a budget and be ready for Executive sign-off and endorsement by the end of March 2020."

Given that, will the deputy First Minister give a clear timescale for the anti-poverty strategy, including any consultation, or will it be a copy-and-paste exercise from previous Executive promises that ignores the advice and recommendations from those working in the sector?

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

I give the Member an assurance that it will not be that. We have an opportunity to demonstrate a different style of politics, and that is what we are committed to doing. I also believe very strongly in consulting experts in the sector who are delivering on the ground. As we develop all our Programme for Government commitments, we need to make sure that we have a proper consultation and that we resource the pledges that we make to the public, because there is no point having a lovely document that sits on a shelf but that cannot be translated into something that makes a difference to people's lives.

Caoimhe Archibald (Sinn Féin, East Londonderry)

T3. Dr Archibald asked the First Minister and deputy First Minister what engagement they have had with the NIO on the development of the regulations for a pension scheme for those who were seriously and physically injured during the conflict. (AQT 83/17-22)

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

I am fully committed to providing for those who were seriously and physically injured during the conflict in an inclusive manner. On the victims' pension issue specifically, I have had no discussion with the NIO on the development of the regulations for the scheme.

Caoimhe Archibald (Sinn Féin, East Londonderry)

I thank the Minister for her answer. Is the resource for the victims' pension coming from the block grant?

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

As I said, I have had no input into the development of the regulations, which very much came from the NIO. The policy was designed in Westminster, and it is my firm view that it should also be funded from Westminster.

Daniel McCrossan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, West Tyrone)

T4. Mr McCrossan asked the First Minister and deputy First Minister, given that they may have seen the ‘Lost Lives’ documentary on BBC 1 last night, which highlighted the Omagh bomb, among other atrocities, and in the light of the fact that the families of the victims are still waiting on justice for that most heinous of acts, whether their office will support the efforts of those families to have a full public inquiry into that atrocity as part of any agreed resolution to deal with the legacy of the past. (AQT 84/17-22)

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

I did not see the programme last night, but we have to deal with the past in a way that is inclusive and that allows victims to move forward. We have to deal with the past in the way that we all agreed to in the Stormont House Agreement five years ago, which we are yet to see implemented. We have a commitment in 'New Decade, New Approach' to legislate within 100 days, and when we meet the new Secretary of State this week we intend to raise the issue with him.

I am more than happy to do whatever I can to support the Omagh families in receiving justice and getting access to what is important, because anybody who lost a loved one or was hurt during the conflict deserves to be supported in a way that is important to them.

Daniel McCrossan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, West Tyrone)

I thank the deputy First Minister for her answer. She will know very well that, some years after the bomb, Omagh and its people, its community and its town are still suffering from that devastating event, which took the lives of so many innocent people and has haunted Omagh ever since. Will the deputy First Minister consider joining the First Minister in visiting Omagh to meet community groups and seek out some funding to support the regeneration of Omagh town, which has still not recovered from that dreadful event?

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

Both I and the First Minister are keen to get out to meet communities and engage with people. We are determined to do that as much as we possibly can. I am more than happy to continue engaging with the Member and others on the regeneration of Omagh, and west of the Bann in general, because there is a need to tackle regional disparities that have existed for many years. We are determined to do that, and that is why it is referenced in the 'New Decade, New Approach' document.

George Robinson (DUP, East Londonderry)

T5. Mr Robinson asked the First Minister and deputy First Minister for an update on the establishment of a new mental trauma service for victims. (AQT 85/17-22)

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

Discussions are ongoing between the different stakeholders on implementing changes to the regional trauma network's (RTN) governance structures to ensure that the voluntary and community sector groups for victims and survivors are better represented at all levels of the RTN governance structures. The RTN will deliver a comprehensive regional trauma service, building on existing resources and expertise in the statutory sector and in the voluntary and community sector. The network will focus on those who have experienced trauma and are suffering from PTSD, and we hope that phase 1 of the service will be launched in the coming months.

George Robinson (DUP, East Londonderry)

Will the deputy First Minister give a time frame for victims to benefit from this new service?

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

It is still in progress. We hope that phase 1 will be launched in the coming months. I do not have an exact date for the Member, but I am more than happy to keep him up to date on progress.

Declan McAleer (Sinn Féin, West Tyrone)

T6. Mr McAleer asked the First Minister and deputy First Minister to give a commitment to engage with the groups representing victims and survivors throughout west Tyrone, Omagh and other districts. (AQT 86/17-22)

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

I am more than happy to continue to engage with all groups, and it is important that we listen to the needs of all victims and that we engage and show leadership. I am happy to take the Member up on that.

Declan McAleer (Sinn Féin, West Tyrone)

I join with the Member who asked a question earlier in requesting the deputy First Minister to come west of the Bann to the Omagh and Strabane districts to meet many groups, particularly those who deal with the needs of victims and survivors.

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

I am happy to do that.

Steve Aiken (UUP, South Antrim)

T7. Dr Aiken asked the First Minister and deputy First Minister, after paying tribute to Breege and Stephen Quinn and the rest of the Quinn family, and since the Assembly is in a new mode, with the First Minister and deputy First Minister’s focus on victims and survivors, whether the deputy First Minister has asked her Finance Minister to state publicly, as the Quinn family has asked, that Paul Quinn was not a criminal and, if she has not done so, to state why not. (AQT 87/17-22)

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

As I already said, Conor Murphy has apologised for his remarks and unreservedly withdrawn his remarks. His apology was heartfelt and sincere, and he has offered to meet the Quinn family. I think that that is the best way to proceed.

Steve Aiken (UUP, South Antrim)

I thank the deputy First Minister for her answer. As the deputy First Minister knows, Ministers are bound by the ministerial code, particularly the Pledge of Office, which in paragraph 1.4 (cg) and paragraph 1.4 (ci) refer particularly to paramiltarism and paramilitary attempts to control communities. As the Finance Minister has previously stated that he spoke to the IRA, will he now give that information to the PSNI and an Garda Síochána? If he does not, will the deputy First Minister agree that the Minister of Finance would then be in breach of the code and would have him stand down?

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

No, I will not. The Minister is not in breach of the ministerial code. He has previously spoken to the PSNI and an Garda Síochána, and has called on anyone who has information to bring it forward to both parties.

Jemma Dolan (Sinn Féin, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

T8. Ms Dolan asked the First Minister and deputy First Minister for an update on the social investment fund spend to date. (AQT 88/17-22)

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

The social investment fund aims to make life better for people living in targeted areas by reducing poverty, unemployment and physical deterioration. The fund will run up until March this year. The full £80 million budget has been committed to a total of 65 projects across the nine SIF zones. These include 46 capital projects, which are delivering improvements to 107 premises, and 19 revenue projects. To date, 34 capital projects and 17 revenue projects have completed and are delivering the benefits to the local communities. Total spend to date is £72 million, of which £35 million is capital and £37 million is revenue.

Jemma Dolan (Sinn Féin, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

I thank the Minister for her answer. What outcomes have been identified from the SIF projects?

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

The full impact of the projects will take longer to evaluate, but, so far as we know, over 45,000 people have benefited from the revenue projects: over 5,000 people through employment and training; over 28,000 people through early intervention; and over 12,000 people through projects focused on education. The physical improvements in the capital projects will continue to benefit communities for years to come.

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

T10. Mr O'Dowd asked the First Minister and deputy First Minister for an update on the minority ethnic development fund. (AQT 90/17-22)

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

The budget for the minority ethnic development fund is just over £1·2 million. Funding awards run from 1 April 2019 to 31 March 2020. Sixty-nine applications were received to the 2019-2020 fund, and 38 were successful. The fund continues to be a key element of our policy for racial equality and good race relations in our society. It is intended to be aligned with and support our racial equality strategy, which runs from 2015 to 2025. The fund continues, and will continue, to support voluntary and community organisations to address the needs of people from ethnic backgrounds, including the Travelling community.

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

Will the Minister outline the type of projects involved or, indeed, how funding is applied to each of the organisations that are currently funded?

Michelle O'Neill (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

Funding awards fall into three broad categories or tiers. Tier 1 covers smaller amounts of up to £10,000. They may be for one-off events or for projects lasting up to one year. Tier 2 covers amounts of between £10,000 and £45,000 per annum. Funding is intended to meet central management, development and administrative costs to enable organisations to develop and provide services and projects. Tier 3 covers awards between £45,000 and £75,000 per annum. Similar to tier 2, funding in that category is intended to meet central management, development and administrative costs to enable organisations to develop and provide services and projects. However, tier 3 applications must also include clear proposals to provide a mentoring role with smaller or less-experienced organisations and/or to work collaboratively with others in the sector.

Alex Maskey (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

Time is up. As the next period for questions does not begin until 2.45 pm, I suggest the House takes its ease for a couple of minutes.

Oral Answers to Questions — Justice

John Stewart (UUP, East Antrim)

1. Mr Stewart asked the Minister of Justice, following the announcement in 2012 of a review of sentencing guidelines for convictions of murder, to outline any subsequent changes to the tariffs for mandatory life sentences. (AQO 124/17-22)

Naomi Long (Alliance, Belfast East)

The ministerial commitment of the time was to a wider review of the legislation governing the determination of tariffs for mandatory life sentences. In Northern Ireland, a person guilty of murder must receive a life sentence, and the sentencing judge must set an appropriate tariff. The tariff is the minimum period the person must remain in prison before being considered for release by the independent Parole Commissioners for Northern Ireland (PCNI).

The tariff is determined by the judge considering sentencing guidance, generally from judgements delivered by our Court of Appeal. Sentencing guidance is distinctly different from "sentencing guidelines" or a statutory structured approach for tariff setting as exists in England and Wales. The Department initiated a review of sentencing policy in 2017 and undertook a public consultation on a wide review of sentencing issues, including whether approaches to tariff setting that occur elsewhere should be developed in Northern Ireland, in October 2019. The consultation closed on 3 February with over 200 responses having been received. The responses are being considered.

John Stewart (UUP, East Antrim)

I welcome the Minister to her position and wish her the best of luck in the years ahead. I appreciate that she is only one month into post, but she will know that both her predecessors announced reviews of sentencing tariffs for murders. Does she agree that it is an absolute disgrace that, in 2017, the average sentence for a murder in Northern Ireland was 11 years and 4 months, some 10 years less than the equivalent in England and Wales? When is Northern Ireland going to lose its reputation for being soft on murderers?

Naomi Long (Alliance, Belfast East)

I thank the Member for his supplementary question, and I want to say a few things in answer to his question.

First, it is worth considering that there is no major disparity in sentencing guidance covering such offences and tariffs between Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK. The tariff is the first point where someone may ask for parole to be considered, but it is not, if you like, automatic that the person will be released from custody.

Secondly, it is very difficult to do the comparative analysis that the Member is suggesting could take place, because, due to the small number of cases in Northern Ireland, very small differences in sentencing can skew the results. We will be considering whether or not we need to go for a more structured sentencing approach in light of what has come back from the consultation. However, when this was last considered, significant value-for-money concerns were raised in the responses. Those two things do need to be balanced.

Paul Givan (DUP, Lagan Valley)

Again, I welcome the Minister to her first Question Time.

In evidence that the Chief Constable gave to the Justice Committee, he indicated a concern about the lack of deterrent value in the current legislation for assaults on police officers. Can the Minister look at this area to provide additional protection by way of deterrent value?

Secondly, in respect of murder, we recognise that police officers and prison officers represent all of us. An attack on them is an attack on democracy. Is the Minister in favour of introducing whole-life sentences so that, when those individuals are murdered, life actually means life?

Naomi Long (Alliance, Belfast East)

I thank the Chair of the Committee for his question. First, the review that was undertaken was of tariffs for mandatory life sentences, so that has already gone ahead. On the issue of wider sentencing, there is an issue of aggravated offences that needs to be considered. There are a number of different ways that people can be judged for murder, because some are whole-life sentences, some are indeterminate, some are determinate and some have tariffs applied.

If the Member would like more detail, I am happy to write to him with more information about how it is applied. However, I do not want anyone to go away from the Chamber feeling that, in any way, there is a huge disparity between the sentencing in Northern Ireland and sentencing elsewhere. It has to be borne in mind that we have a very small number of such offences in any one year. Therefore, the much larger pool of offences in England and Wales means that very small changes in Northern Ireland can produce big anomalies in the comparative analysis. People need to be careful about drawing the comparison out too far.

Doug Beattie (UUP, Upper Bann)

Given that Westminster has just brought in legislation to fill a gap in terrorist laws, can the Minister outline the engagement that her Department had with the Northern Ireland Office on the Terrorist Offenders (Restriction of Early Release) Bill that saw Northern Ireland omitted from the Bill?

Naomi Long (Alliance, Belfast East)

Yes, I can. With respect to the provisions that have been made in Westminster under the emergency legislation, we consulted with the Ministry of Justice and the Northern Ireland Office and indicated that, whilst there were a number of issues about how sentences are constructed in Northern Ireland and, specifically, about any retrospectivity that might be incurred as a result of the changes proposed in Westminster, there was no barrier to the legislation being applied UK-wide. We made it clear that that was our preference. Indeed, in a conversation with the Justice Minister for England and Wales, Robert Buckland, I made it clear that that was my preference, because I was concerned about the risk of a two-tier system of approach being set up in the UK when it comes to the paroling of terrorist prisoners.

At the end of the day, the decision was taken by the Ministry of Justice. It is not a decision for the Department of Justice here. The decision was to exclude Northern Ireland from that. Our first sight of that decision was the press release about the legislation that was issued by the Ministry of Justice. There will be other opportunities for Northern Ireland to be included in the counterterrorism Bill that is about to come through Westminster, so the door, if you like, has not completely closed on that chapter. I have written to the Ministry of Justice and to Robert Buckland to make it clear that, in future, we expect a higher level of exchange of information between Departments before announcements of that gravity are made.

Emma Sheerin (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

Does the Minister intend to review the structure of the Lord Chief Justice's sentencing group?

Naomi Long (Alliance, Belfast East)

The Lord Chief Justice's sentencing group was set up in 2016 to provide guideline cases that could then be considered as part of the overall consideration that judges would make when they were doing sentencing. In addition to the legal members on the panel, lay members were added in, I think, 2018. At the moment, whilst we continue to review its operation, there are no firm proposals for change.

Patsy McGlone (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Mid Ulster)

Many answers have already been forthcoming, so I ask the Minister to bear with me and give me some latitude. Is the Minister prepared to review sentencing for the offence of death by dangerous driving?

Naomi Long (Alliance, Belfast East)

First, I thank the Member for raising the issue, because it has been a major feature in the recent consultation. I am aware, obviously, that there was particular public interest in that, as a result of the accident involving Enda Dolan, where he died as a result of quite an appalling case. First, I express my sympathy to Peter Dolan and his wife, Niamh, for the experience that they have had since Enda was killed in 2014. I know that they have been looking, as part of the sentencing review, to see whether there is a possibility of having a view on the maximum sentencing for death by dangerous driving. As you will appreciate, I cannot prejudge the outcome of the consultation. We need to look at all the responses being analysed. I have to say that a significant number relate to that particular offence. I express my thanks to the Dolan family for their efforts, which clearly highlighted the consultation and encouraged the public to get involved in that and to send very detailed responses on those matters that we are now considering.

Jim Allister (Traditional Unionist Voice, North Antrim)

Can I take the Minister back to Mr Beattie's question? Is she saying to the House that there is no opportunity for her Department or the Executive to bring in legislation altering the parole provisions and when they kick in, in respect of terrorist offences?

Naomi Long (Alliance, Belfast East)

Terrorist offences are for the UK Government to legislate on because they are a reserved matter. However, there is, of course, the opportunity for us to look at when parole kicks in with respect to those offences. As I said in answer to Doug Beattie's question, the issue is that this was driven by an imperative in England and Wales with respect to a particular issue that was arising. When the MOJ introduces UK-wide legislation on counterterrorism later in the spring, there will be an opportunity to address the wider issues, including the one that the Member raised. It is my hope that, at that stage, we will have better engagement with the MOJ, the Department of Justice and the NIO to ensure that we regularise what has become an anomaly in the system. However, I am clear that it is our preference that the UK-wide approach to this is consistent and that a two-tier system — one administered in Northern Ireland and one administered in the rest of the UK — does not develop.

Christopher Stalford (DUP, Belfast South)

I welcome the Minister to her place and wish her well in her new role. Does she agree that whilst always wanting to be merciful and allow people the opportunity of redemption, there are some crimes that are so despicable that life should mean life, specifically the murder of a child? I am sure all Members will agree that, as part of any review of sentencing policy, anyone who engages in such a heinous act should spend the rest of their days in prison.

Naomi Long (Alliance, Belfast East)

I thank the Member for his point. A number of elements have to be considered by judges when they are deciding on the tariff to apply in life sentence cases. However, to be clear, if someone commits murder in Northern Ireland, they will automatically receive a life sentence. The tariff is not the point at which someone is released on parole; it is the first point at which they can apply to be released on parole. Therefore, even someone who is given a life sentence with a relatively low tariff can continue to remain in prison if the parole commissioners judge that that person remains a threat to society.

Cathal Boylan (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

2. Mr Boylan asked the Minister of Justice whether departmental officials are in contact with their counterparts in the NIO regarding the commitment to publish and introduce legislation in the UK Parliament to address legacy issues. (AQO 125/17-22)

Naomi Long (Alliance, Belfast East)

Since the New Decade, New Approach deal, my officials have spoken to their Northern Ireland Office counterparts on several occasions, and we await formal meetings to discuss the next steps towards the publication and introduction of the promised legislation. In the period following the completion of the Northern Ireland Office's public consultation on its draft Stormont House Agreement Bill, departmental officials and relevant justice bodies participated in a series of meetings with Northern Ireland Office officials. These were intended to inform the Northern Ireland Office's thinking on how it might respond to the consultation responses and the implications of any proposed changes to the Bill. I assure Members that my officials and I remain ready and committed to working with the UK Government and the Northern Ireland Office to progress the necessary legislation.

Cathal Boylan (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

I thank the Minister for her answer and wish her well in her new post. What preparations are being made by the Department to plan for the establishment of the Historical Investigations Unit (HIU)?

Naomi Long (Alliance, Belfast East)

It is clear from the earlier draft legislation published by the Northern Ireland Office that many of the areas to be included in that legislation do not fall within my responsibilities. However, the recent commitment included recognition that the legislation should have the consent of the Northern Ireland Assembly, so work will have to be done to achieve that before we go any further. It is unclear whether that will be via a legislative consent motion. As the Member rightly indicates, it is a matter of some urgency. Accepting that, there are issues that we can address in preparation. A specialist team has been put in place to scope out the work needed for the HIU. Whilst we are working on this as a Department, unless the UK Government provide funding, as well as legislation, it will be incredibly difficult for us to be able to deliver a scheme that can deliver for victims of the Troubles.

Paul Frew (DUP, North Antrim)

The Minister mentioned funding and the NIO. She will know that the vires regarding the decision on separated prisoners in our prison system rests with the Secretary of State. Does the Minister agree that the burden of paying for the separation of the Prison Service should be placed at the NIO, shadowy as it may be, allowing for that money to go into front-line services in the prisons?

Naomi Long (Alliance, Belfast East)

We have gone some way from the HIU and the Stormont House Agreement to the separated regime in prisons, but, in principle, I am always happy for somebody else to pick up the bill for issues that we have to take care of in the Department. If the NIO is willing to do so, I am more than happy to let it. We recognise the sensitivity of the separated regime, but, realistically, at this time, we are working hard with our colleagues in the Prison Service to make sure that the regime is stable; that the numbers, insofar as they are within our gift, can be reduced; and that those in the unseparated regime are not following a significantly different regime from the rest of those in the prison system. That is hugely important.

John Stewart (UUP, East Antrim)

Does the Minister concede that any investigation body investigating the past, such as the HIU, cannot be both investigator and adjudicator?

Naomi Long (Alliance, Belfast East)

Such a body needs to be article 2-compliant. It is important that the body that investigates then produces reports that are forwarded to a separate body to determine whether prosecutions should take place. I am not sure whether that is the particular issue that the Member hints at. From our perspective, that would be the separation that we see there being. It is entirely appropriate, however, that those who do the investigation produce the reports.

Joanne Bunting (DUP, Belfast East)

To go back to the original question, what liaison has the Minister or her Department had with the NIO on the responses to the most recent legacy consultation? In her view, what must happen as a result of the concerns raised by innocent victims?

Naomi Long (Alliance, Belfast East)

As the Member will be well aware, the issue has drawn some particular political controversy over many years, and I suspect that that may not change in the near future. However, it is a matter for the NIO, which took forward the consultation, to look at and assess the responses. From our perspective, we are clear that the current regime is not fit for purpose and cannot continue to deal with historical cases indefinitely.

We recognise that the implications of continuing to police and investigate the past out of current budgets is a deflection from the work of the present, yet it is important work that needs to be done, because, if not done, that will colour people's interactions with the justice system in the present. While there may be many concerns about the Stormont House Agreement and the HIU, there is, as it stands, no alternative proposal that has received any more support than that agreement. We have a duty to try to take the issue forward in a way that allows the police, the judiciary, the Police Ombudsman and all the others involved to move forward and focus on policing the present and the future and allow the past to be dealt with through a comprehensive mechanism. The Stormont House Agreement, while imperfect, is the best opportunity that we have to do that.

Colin McGrath (Social Democratic and Labour Party, South Down)

I welcome the Minister to her first Question Time and wish her well. Does she agree that the establishment of the HIU is the last chance for many victims and survivors to obtain truth and justice for their loved ones and that all those responsible for their deaths should be held to account, regardless of who they are?

Naomi Long (Alliance, Belfast East)

I do. It is hugely important, in order to transform our society from one in which there have been significant issues around lawlessness and lack of respect for the rule of law. In order to build confidence that we are going forward on a different basis, it is hugely important that we address those issues and give victims the opportunity to receive not just truth but, where possible, justice. We also have to be realistic. With the passage of time, there is an issue about how likely it is that cases will be fit to be prosecuted. There is also an ongoing issue of people who have died without having received justice and have carried that burden to their grave. We, as a society, have a duty to deal with those who are victims and who were most acutely affected by the Troubles, but that duty goes beyond those who were victims and survivors; in setting standards, it extends to wider society. We have to look at what happens in other places — for example, historical sex offences are being prosecuted, and it is right that that should be so. There is not a person in the Chamber who would argue that the age of the offender or the remoteness of the incident should excuse proper investigation and prosecution where possible. It should be no less serious when it comes to murder.

Philip McGuigan (Sinn Féin, North Antrim)

3. Mr McGuigan asked the Minister of Justice to outline any discussions her Department has had with victims and survivors of historical institutional abuse (HIA) to ensure the roll-out of the compensation payments meets their needs. (AQO 126/17-22)

Naomi Long (Alliance, Belfast East)

The Executive Office has policy, statutory and budgetary responsibility for the establishment of the redress board and has been leading engagement with victims and survivors' groups. However, my Department is working diligently to establish the redress board and to support Justice Colton to discharge his functions as president-elect of that board.

The president-elect has met the Interim Advocate appointed to act as the voice of victims and survivors of historical institutional abuse and to ensure that their needs are known and communicated, pending the appointment of a Commissioner for Survivors of Institutional Childhood Abuse, on a number of occasions to discuss the remit of the board. He also met representatives of each of the victims and survivors' groups on 18 December 2019 to discuss a number of issues, including the board's intended approach to the payment of compensation.

Redress board officials are in regular contact with the Interim Advocate's office, and a very helpful meeting with victims' groups to discuss the content of the application form took place on 21 January. A further three meetings based on agendas proposed by the Interim Advocate are scheduled to take place this month to help to inform the board's emerging procedures and guidance. The president-elect is content that any issues raised by the groups about the redress board's emerging procedures should be shared with redress board officials via the Interim Advocate's office. Redress board officials will continue to engage with the groups through the Interim Advocate to ensure that the redress scheme meets their needs.

Philip McGuigan (Sinn Féin, North Antrim)

Like others have done, I welcome the Minister to her first Question Time. I congratulate her on her new job and wish her well.

I thank the Minister for her full answer, in which she mentioned the application form. Will she clarify whether the groups will get sight of the application form before it is published?

Naomi Long (Alliance, Belfast East)

I mentioned that three further meetings would take place by the end of February. I am not clear as to whether the application form will be the subject of discussion at those meetings, but I will check and revert to the Member in writing to confirm that with him one way or the other.

Gordon Dunne (DUP, North Down)

I, too, welcome the Minister to her new post. Following the letter from the head of the Civil Service, David Sterling, to six institutions in late 2019 that stated that institutions had an obligation to contribute to payments for victims, will she outline what discussions she has had with Executive colleagues regarding contributions from such institutions towards compensation for victims of HIA?

Naomi Long (Alliance, Belfast East)

As I said at the outset, the Executive Office has the policy, statutory and budgetary responsibility for the establishment of the redress board. That question would be best placed with the Executive Office and the First Minister and deputy First Minister.

Rosemary Barton (UUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

Will the Minister confirm that there will be no delay in compensation payments and that the first payments will be made by the end of March?

Naomi Long (Alliance, Belfast East)

My understanding is that the payments will be done by the end of April. The board will be open to receive application forms by the end of March. Applicants will then be dealt with as swiftly as they can be, but that will depend, obviously, on the volume and complexity of the applications that are received.

In deciding the priority order of applications to be processed, the board will have due regard to the age and health of the applicant. It will be possible to submit application forms online or on paper. It is anticipated that the panel will sit to determine the first payments from 20 April and those first payments will be made in early May.

John Blair (Alliance, South Antrim)

Like previous Members, I take the opportunity to welcome the Minister, a colleague of mine, to her post, and I wish her well for the future.

Can I ask for clarification from the Minister whether those who have already given evidence to the Hart inquiry will also be required to give evidence again to the redress board?

Naomi Long (Alliance, Belfast East)

That will not be the case. Applicants who gave evidence to the Hart inquiry will not be required to provide further written evidence to the redress board unless they wish to do so. They will be asked if they are content for the redress board to determine their application on the basis of the evidence of the Hart inquiry, and the redress board will then obtain a copy of that from the Public Record Office of Northern Ireland on the applicant's behalf.

David Hilditch (DUP, East Antrim)

5. Mr Hilditch asked the Minister of Justice how many reported cases of rape have resulted in prosecution since 2014. (AQO 128/17-22)

Naomi Long (Alliance, Belfast East)

I ask for the Speaker's indulgence. There are quite a lot of statistics in the answer, and I do not want to stumble over them. I may take slightly longer than I would like.

Figures from the Police Service of Northern Ireland record that there were 5,290 offences of rape, including attempted rape, reported to the police during the period from 2014 to 2019. Of those, a charge or summons has been the outcome in 385 cases. Please note that the number of offences resulting in charge or summons is only provisional: investigations for rape offences recorded since 2014 will be ongoing and may result in a charge or summons at a future date. Similarly, numbers of offences reported since April 2019 included in the total of 5,290 are provisional.

Figures from the Public Prosecution Service record that, for the period 2015-16 to 2018-19, there were 1,941 files received that included an offence of rape or attempted rape. During that period, a total of 258 prosecution or diversion decisions were issued by the Public Prosecution Service for cases that included an offence of rape or attempted rape.

For cases dealt with at courts, in the period 2014 to 2018, which included at least one count of a substantive or attempted rape offence, there were 345 prosecutions resulting in convictions in 81 cases.

David Hilditch (DUP, East Antrim)

I welcome the Minister to her first Question Time. There is a lot of concern about the process and the figures out there, including the up-to-date figures that we have just received. What steps are being taken to increase the low conviction rate, and how will the Department support victims going through the process, as that does not appear to happen now?

Naomi Long (Alliance, Belfast East)

That is a key issue and, clearly, one that is hugely important. The Gillen review was commissioned by the Criminal Justice Board to examine how the criminal justice system dealt with cases of serious sexual assault. Sir John Gillen made 253 recommendations for improving procedures and practice to deliver better outcomes and support for complainants. I am committed to delivering real change in the experience of complainants and welcome the commitment that has also been shown by justice partners to work with my Department to ensure coordinated reform.

Sir John's comprehensive review presents an opportunity to focus our efforts on delivering a justice system that complainants have confidence in. We want to prioritise the areas that can have the greatest impact on complainants going through that system in the first phase of implementation. Recommendations to be taken forward as a priority in the first phase include the appointment of additional case progression officers in the PPS and PSNI; establishing a new remote evidence centre in Belfast to allow vulnerable complainants to give evidence without having to appear in court; providing complainants with legal advice and representation pretrial to ensure they are better supported and have a voice from the outset; consideration of how best to take forward pilot pre-recorded cross-examination next year, where victims give their evidence ahead of trial; and reform of the committal process later this year so that complainants have to give oral evidence only once in court. Also, we intend to do scoping work on providing additional support to young victims and witnesses, including consideration of the child house model in a Northern Ireland context. A dedicated implementation team has been established in the Department of Justice to coordinate those phased actions as agreed by the Criminal Justice Board.

Alex Maskey (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

I call Linda Dillon for a very quick question and the Minister for a super-quick answer.

Linda Dillon (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

My question has been partly answered. I wish the Minister well in her post, and I am sure that I will work closely with her in my role as Deputy Chair.

You outlined that your Department was working towards addressing some of the Gillen recommendations.

Do you think that the gaps are more in the process or in the legislation? In other words, do we need further legislation or will the process be enough to deal with the outstanding issues?

Naomi Long (Alliance, Belfast East)

I think that it covers three sets of areas. First of all, there is an educational piece, where the Department of Justice and other Departments need to engage in educating people better about the issues of consent and sexual assault. We also need to look at process issues that can be resolved without legislation. The third category does include legislation, and I hope that, in the miscellaneous provisions Bill that we are hoping to bring forward next year in the Department of Justice, we will be able to take through the first wave of legislative change from the Gillen review. The committal reform Bill, which I have said will be brought forward this spring, will deal with at least one of those issues, namely replication and expecting somebody to repeat their evidence more than once in court.

Alex Maskey (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

We now move to topical questions.

Jonathan Buckley (DUP, Upper Bann)

T1. Mr Buckley asked the Minister of Justice, after welcoming her to her post, in the light of the fact that, last week, the Chief Constable appeared before the Justice Committee and failed to give the police assessment of the current status of the Provisional IRA, whether she, as Minister with responsibility for policing matters, can give her assessment. (AQT 91/17-22)

Naomi Long (Alliance, Belfast East)

The assessment of the activity of the Provisional IRA is not a matter for the Department of Justice. The assessment of active terrorism is a matter for the Northern Ireland Office and an operational matter for the Chief Constable. Therefore, it is not something that I can offer.

Jonathan Buckley (DUP, Upper Bann)

Does the Minister recognise the damage to public confidence in our justice system that this lack of evidence results in, when a Chief Constable is ducking the question, a Justice Minister is dodging the question and an independent commission has run away from the question? In light of recent activities in the Republic of Ireland, the people of Northern Ireland are quite rightly and legitimately asking the question: where does this responsibility lie? We have the right to an answer. Or is it a case that dark forces continue to operate with no accountability from our judiciary?

Naomi Long (Alliance, Belfast East)

For fear of any confusion, I did not dodge the question. In fact, I gave the Member a very clear answer: responsibility for this matter lies with the Northern Ireland Office.

Gerry Carroll (People Before Profit Alliance, Belfast West)

T2. Mr Carroll asked the Minister of Justice whether she supports the campaign of the families of the Springhill and Westrock massacre, which took place in West Belfast in July 1972, and, in particular, whether she will support publicly the families’ demand for an inquest into the death of their loved ones. (AQT 92/17-22)

Naomi Long (Alliance, Belfast East)

I thank the Member for his question. As you are aware, there is already a procedure in place when issues are referred to the coroner for an inquest decision. However, I believe that the best way forward in dealing with legacy issues is, as I stated in the earlier part of my answers, a comprehensive process such as that set out in the Stormont House Agreement, but I am happy to meet the Member and his constituents, if it would be helpful, to discuss it further with them.

Gerry Carroll (People Before Profit Alliance, Belfast West)

Thank you, Minister, for your answer. I cannot speak on behalf of all the families, but I would imagine that they would be willing to meet you. I thank you for that offer. Five people were massacred — shot down in cold blood — three of whom were teenagers. It is an absolute crime, and those families deserve truth and justice. I will certainly pass that message on to the families.

John Dallat (Social Democratic and Labour Party, East Londonderry)

T3. Mr Dallat asked the Minister of Justice, given that homelessness is a topical issue at the moment, albeit that she might wonder why on earth she is being asked a question on that subject, and in the light of the fact that she may not yet have visited Magilligan prison, to state whether, if she has visited, she discovered that hundreds of prisoners are living in accommodation that is over 80 years old, including Nissen huts that were built during the Second World War, and to outline her plans to address that issue. (AQT 93/17-22)

Naomi Long (Alliance, Belfast East)

I thank the Member for his question. The Department is committed to replacing the prison at Magilligan and retaining a prison at that site. We recognise that significant investment is required on the site and, as part of the work of the Prison Service and the directorate for prisons, they are taking forward a number of proposals that are required on the prisons estate. I would be happy to inform the Member of the detail of what is proposed. We are aware of Magilligan. I have not visited yet, but I will visit in the next few weeks.

John Dallat (Social Democratic and Labour Party, East Londonderry)

When the Minister is visiting, perhaps she will slip me in to the Škoda limousine; I would be happy to join her.

[Laughter.]

Alex Maskey (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

As long as you get a release date, John. Just ensure that you get that.

John Dallat (Social Democratic and Labour Party, East Londonderry)

I join the Minister in supporting the retention of Magilligan prison where it is. Not only does it provide employment to a lot of people, but the local community has embraced it, particularly the open part of the prison. I can speak in glowing terms about it, which is why I have raised the question. Will the Minister give us a timescale for when the 80-year-old Nissen huts will disappear?

Naomi Long (Alliance, Belfast East)

It would not be appropriate for me to prejudge the outcome of the development of the estates, but, as you know, in December 2018, the Northern Ireland Prison Service published a document on the estates and sought the view of stakeholders. We remain committed to the redevelopment of Magilligan prison. An outline business case is at an advanced stage for that and will be submitted for approval in the coming months. I assure him that we are not dragging our heels on the issue.