Northern Ireland Assembly, 9 June 2020

279 contributions from 46 members. The official report.

Assembly Business

Christopher Stalford (DUP, Belfast South)

The first item on the Order Paper is a motion to suspend Standing Order 20A. It will be treated —.

Jim Allister (Traditional Unionist Voice, North Antrim)

On a point of order, Mr Principal Deputy Speaker. Here we go again: without debate, the House is about to, yet again, extend the strangulation of scrutiny in the House by, this time, prohibiting topical questions. I can think of no time when it is more appropriate for the asking of topical questions than the situation in which we presently exist, and, yet, they are to be banished.

According to the Speaker's latest letter, also to be banished are follow-up supplementary questions, when Ministers are here, by anyone other than the Member who tabled the question. Why are we diminishing scrutiny in the House? Why are we shielding Ministers in the manner that these proposals will do?

Christopher Stalford (DUP, Belfast South)

I thank the Member for his point, and I have considerable sympathy with the concerns that he has raised. The Member will know that, at its meeting last week, the Business Committee reviewed its decisions on Assembly questions and agreed that, as lockdown restrictions ease, a first step towards resuming normal business is to allow Question Time to resume on 16 June. These are matters that are decided at the Business Committee, and I appreciate that if the Member has concerns, he is absolutely within his rights to raise them at the Business Committee.

Having given my view on that point of order, I will return to today's business.

The first item on the Order Paper is a motion to suspend Standing Order 20A. It will be treated as a business motion and there will be no debate on it.

Kellie Armstrong (Alliance, Strangford)

I beg to move

That Standing Order 20A be suspended until 4 July 2020.

Christopher Stalford (DUP, Belfast South)

Before we proceed to the Question, I remind Members that the motion requires cross-community support.

Question put and agreed to. Resolved (with cross-community support):

That Standing Order 20A be suspended until 4 July 2020.

Ministerial Statement

Christopher Stalford (DUP, Belfast South)

I have received notice from the Minister of Health that he wishes to make a statement. Before I call the Minister, I remind Members that in the light of social distancing being observed by parties, I have relaxed the Speaker's ruling that Members must be in the Chamber to hear a statement if they want to ask a question. Members still have to make sure that their name is on the speaking list if they wish to be called, but they can do that by rising in their place, as well as by notifying the Business Office or the Table directly. I remind Members to be concise in their questions. This is not an opportunity for debate and long introductions. I call the Minister of Health, Mr Robin Swann.

Robin Swann (UUP, North Antrim)

Thank you, Mr Principal Deputy Speaker, and thank you for the opportunity to update the House on my approach to the rebuilding of health and social care (HSC) services.

COVID-19 has wreaked havoc on our community, our way of life and on how our health and social care services are delivered. Things will not be the same again, and we need to carefully navigate the next phase of dealing with this terrible virus.

By complying with social distancing and other restrictions — measures that, only four months ago, would have sounded so far-fetched that no one could have envisaged them — the people of Northern Ireland have been instrumental in dramatically reducing the rate of infection. Sadly however, as of yesterday, 537 of our fellow citizens have passed away after testing positive for COVID-19. No matter how long the pandemic continues, we must never forget that behind every figure was a person who was loved and who is sorely missed. With so many families having experienced that grief, we all have an obligation to minimise the rate of infection and future loss of life. My sincere condolences go to the families and loved ones of those who have tragically passed away.

The actions that we took to control the virus meant that we had sufficient health service capacity to cope with the additional pressures exerted by COVID-19. Our nurses, doctors, paramedics, other allied health professionals, pharmacists, care workers, primary care and other front-line health and social care workers have bravely and tirelessly put themselves at risk to save the lives of others. Among them were those who volunteered to return to work or to temporarily leave training to provide much help and support. I cannot thank our workers enough for that. I know that I can rely upon continued commitment from all staff as we begin the task of rebuilding health and social care services as soon as possible.

With this being carers' week, it is incumbent on us to acknowledge the essential work of all our carers. Whilst carers have always been key pillars of the local HSC system, the pandemic has further highlighted their sheer contribution to families throughout the United Kingdom. Many new carers have come forward to look after friends or relatives who are elderly, sick or disabled. As Minister, I thank them wholeheartedly for everything that they have done, and continue to do. I appreciate that the efforts of our staff and carers have taken their toll. We must put their welfare, along with patient safety, at the heart of our efforts to rebuild services.

COVID-19 has presented our health and social care system with its biggest challenge since its inception, and that is in the context of the huge strategic challenges that were facing us prior to COVID-19, all of which are well known, and which were highlighted in the Bengoa review and the Delivering Together agenda. Those strategic challenges have not gone away. We need to continue to tackle issues such as the impact of an ageing population, increasing demand, long and growing waiting lists, workforce pressures, the emergence of new and expensive treatments and ongoing budget constraints.

The terrible events that have occurred in recent months, such as the loss of loved ones that has been suffered by many families, and the restrictions on our daily lives and access to employment and public services have only heightened my commitment to use the resources of my Department to better deliver health and life outcomes for all our people. My Department’s budgetary position continues to be hugely challenging. There have been significant additional funding requirements for our response to the unprecedented challenges of COVID-19. The Department has secured additional funding from the Executive to respond to COVID-19, and continues to liaise with the Department of Finance to secure the further required funding. Rebuilding health and social care services, whilst simultaneously dealing with the ongoing COVID-19 pandemic, will require additional resource funding. However, let me be clear, as serious as the immediate impact of COVID-19 was, and still is, I remain equally as concerned about the detrimental impact that it has had on the delivery of a wide range of crucially important health and care activity.

Throughout the pandemic, HSC has continued to provide high priority and urgent services such as emergency care and many cancer treatments. However, despite that, a terrible consequence of this pandemic is that, for some people, conditions will have gone undetected or untreated for longer than they otherwise would have been. Many of us in the House have bitter experience from friends, families and colleagues of what a cruel disease cancer is and how it thrives in a vacuum. No one is more concerned about the impact of delays than our exceptional cancer clinicians themselves, and that is why we all want to see as many of the full services resumed as quickly as possible.

I am acutely aware that COVID-19 is not the only thing seriously impacting on the health of the local population. For some time, I have also been extremely concerned about the reduced numbers of people presenting to primary or secondary care with serious symptoms. COVID-19 has changed all our lives, but it has not stopped people experiencing chest pains or other unexplained signs. That is why my Department, along with the trusts, individual hospitals, GP practices and staff groups, has consistently urged people not to put off a medical intervention for whatever they suspect that they may require it. I absolutely want to send out that message again today. I am also worried about the impact of the pandemic and the lockdown on mental health, especially for the most vulnerable citizens in our society. That is what makes our recently published 'Mental Health Action Plan' even more important. We have now reached the position where we must remain vigilant and plan for further outbreaks of the virus while starting the work to rebuild the delivery of health and social care services. I will now highlight key aspects of the strategic framework for rebuilding services that I am publishing today. I will cover the impact assessment that my Department has completed, highlight some of the innovations that have emerged in recent months and set out my strategic approach to rebuilding health and social care services as soon as possible. Finally, I will update the House on a new governance approach, to provide the direction and oversight that is needed to deliver all of this at pace.

As the pandemic took hold, it was necessary to protect all the highest priority health and social care services and create the capacity to treat COVID-19 patients. This meant that, as resources were re-directed, some health and social care services had to, unfortunately and unavoidably, be curtailed. Whilst that was the right thing to do, the consequence was that some health and social care services were adversely impacted. Most adult screening programmes were paused from the second week of March. This was needed to ensure not only that adequate healthcare and laboratory resources could be redirected to the pandemic response but to reduce the risk of infection by ensuring appropriate social distancing to safeguard patients. However, it is also important to note that some screening services have continued. These include higher-risk breast screening, diabetic eye screening for pregnant women, newborn blood spot screening, newborn hearing screening, antenatal infection screening in pregnancy and smear tests for non-routine cervical screening. Breast assessment and colposcopy follow-up clinics also continue to be held, where possible.

Elective care activity also had to be reduced during the pandemic, as medical staff were redeployed to treat COVID-19 patients.

As I have said, those waiting lists were unacceptable before COVID-19 and are even more horrendous now. For instance, outpatient activity is down by between 40% and 55%, and inpatient activity by between 34% and 67%, both compared with the similar period last year.

COVID-19 continues to have a significant impact on adult social care, which remains in the surge period of the pandemic. The impact on social care is evident in the presence of COVID-19 among care home residents and staff. A recent survey of providers indicates that 19% of those who responded were caring for residents who had tested positive. A slightly higher proportion — 23% of providers — had employees who had tested positive.

As I have highlighted, I am concerned about the impact of COVID-19 on mental health. Early anecdotal evidence suggests that there are a large number of mental health presentations previously not known to mental health services. Those may well be linked with the effects of a reduction of face-to-face contacts and stress related to the pandemic.

Important projects and programmes being delivered across the Department have also been affected. For example, only two of my Department’s 'New Decade, New Approach' priorities are now on target for delivery. Work on the other commitments will continue but, unfortunately, will be behind schedule.

Emerging research indicates that population health is, on balance, likely to be negatively affected by the wider impacts of COVID-19. Perhaps the greatest concern is that the most disadvantaged in our society are likely to be worst affected. We need to carefully monitor the impacts on population health and consider ways in which we can address them, especially for our most vulnerable citizens.

Clearly, COVID-19 has impacted extensively across all Health and Social Care services, projects and programmes. There is much more detail on these impacts in the strategic framework and, in particular, in the appendices published alongside it.

I leave the impact assessment and turn to the important issue of service innovations. I recognise that it may be difficult to find any positives in the situation that we find ourselves in, but we must recognise that the emergency response across primary, community and secondary care services has involved innovative service delivery approaches. Our health and social care providers have adopted the use of technology like never before. Virtual clinics and telephone triage are now widely embedded in primary and secondary care services. We cannot go back to the way we delivered services before COVID-19. There is now an opportunity to mainstream the recent innovations as normal services are resumed. I am determined that we take that opportunity. We also need to factor into our plans the ongoing Encompass programme, which is designed to facilitate greater digitalisation of our services. Of course, we must recognise that the use of technology will not be appropriate in all circumstances, and we must continue to offer face-to-face services where it makes sense for patients and staff alike.

We must also not forget the extensive transformation programme that had gathered pace prior to the pandemic. It will also inform the rebuilding of health and social care services. Our primary and secondary care providers have also stepped up to collaborate in ways not previously seen. That is best exemplified in the 11 COVID-19 centres established as a response to the crisis. We must now build on those experiences to further encourage that collaboration. I confirm to the House that innovation, transformation and collaboration will be at the very heart of my approach to rebuilding health and social care services. My plans for rebuilding health and social care will be integral to the overall strategic approach to recovery that the Executive will take forward. I will work closely with my Executive colleagues to ensure that the societal, economic and health and well-being impacts of the pandemic are addressed across government to ensure that the interests of all our citizens are secured.

I turn to the strategic approach that we will adopt to rebuild health and social care services as soon as possible. It will involve the development of service incremental plans in three-month cycles. I do not consider it feasible to plan beyond that three-month horizon, given the high degree of uncertainty that we face about potential further surges of the virus. Of course, this will be kept under review, and I will adopt a flexible approach to the rebuilding effort.

Service providers, including our health and social care trusts, will therefore be required to develop successive three-month service plans. The plans will detail how they will increase capacity to resume normal service provision as quickly as possible. It is critical that the plans be developed in a systematic and consistent way. We will therefore involve the wide range of existing managerial clinical networks, project boards, task and finish groups and any other suitable vehicles in the development of service-specific plans for their respective areas. That will ensure an integrated and coordinated regional approach.

I recognise the importance of engaging with civic society and stakeholders on the rebuilding of HSC services. My Department will therefore use its existing consultative structure to ensure that we take account of external stakeholders' views. A key aspect of that work will be a review of existing patient pathways in the light of the constraints and issues that COVID-19 presents. The first three-month plans will cover July, August and September. Further plans will be developed thereafter in three-month steps. I will ask trusts and other service providers to develop the incremental plans through taking account of the constraints imposed by COVID-19; recent service innovations; opportunities associated with the transformation programme; and digital innovation, such as the Encompass programme. The incremental service improvement plans will identify further funding requirements that I will bring to the Executive in the weeks and months ahead.

I recognise that it will take time to develop the first three-month plans and that immediate action is essential. Our trusts have therefore developed initial service delivery plans for the month of June. The plans will be published today by the trusts, and I urge Members to review them to see the specific services that are being recommenced in their area.

The trusts have made a number of key commitments that I very much welcome. They include the ongoing emphasis on high-priority cancer services and other urgent conditions. In addition, during June, trusts are increasing scheduled day-care cases and diagnostics, including endos— I will give that one a miss

[Laughter]

; apologies. They will be doing that or determining the extent to which that will be possible in the near future. The individual trust plans, also published today, provide more detail on the immediate actions that they are taking.

I reassure Members that I have long made it known to my officials that, where services across the trusts could be turned on before then, I want to see them turned on. This is not the time to be getting caught up in process, especially as I remain acutely conscious that every day that our health service is not operating at full capacity, the longer and the harder it will be to repair the damage that has been and still is being done.

My overarching approach to rebuilding services as quickly as possible involves a strategic, regional approach. My immediate priority is to support services where further delay would seriously risk conditions worsening for patients. We need to deliver at pace, and I will now say more about how I intend to do that.

The scale of the challenge confronting the health and social care system is daunting. We need to maximise service activity in the context of managing the ongoing COVID-19 situation. At the same time, we need to embed innovation and transformation; incorporate the Encompass digital programme; prioritise services; develop contingencies; and plan for the future. Given the complexity and scale of those challenges, it is more important than ever that our health and social care system be given clear direction and that decisions be taken quickly in a fluid and changing environment. To facilitate that, I have established a new management board for rebuilding HSC services. It will give clear direction to the Health and Social Care Board (HSCB), the Public Health Agency (PHA), the health and social care trusts and the Business Services Organisation (BSO). The management board will consist of senior departmental officials, trust chief executives and senior officials from other key arm's-length bodies. It will be advised by a group of expert advisers who will be invited to provide input and advice to inform management board deliberations as and when required. I envisage that that arrangement will facilitate input from and engagement with a significant range of key stakeholders. The new governance arrangements will be facilitated through changes to the existing framework document, which sets out the roles and responsibilities of all Health and Social Care bodies. The revised governance arrangements will be reviewed on a six-monthly basis, but my intention is to have them in place for at least two years. The rebuilding of services will not happen overnight and will require a response that is both agile and adaptable to ensure that the system can respond to further potential COVID-19 surges.

As I have said before, my priority is to ensure that the services provided by Health and Social Care are safe and effective. I have no doubt that some will have wanted to see more outcomes and targets in the framework: that will be fully addressed in the three-monthly rebuilding plans that my Department will publish from July onwards. Above all, we will need to increase the available capacity in health and social care services to address the backlogs that have increased since the start of the emergency. That will require new recurrent investment alongside ensuring that the innovation that has emerged during the emergency finds its way into policy making. Above all, I want to see an acceptance and a willingness across the system to entertain new ideas and to accept change in the delivery of health and social care services.

I am in no doubt that we are confronted with a huge challenge. We must, as a system, try to rebuild services as quickly as possible; manage the ongoing COVID-19 pandemic; embed innovation and transformation; and plan for the future — all at the same time. Above all, my wish is no different from that of Members in the Chamber and from that of the wider community: that, through good government, sound financial investment and partnership working, we will rebuild our health and social care services. I commit all the various parts of Health and Social Care to that task. I will bring to bear all the leadership and encouragement that I can offer, as we move through what will be a period of considerable testing and change for Health and Social Care. I commend the 'Rebuilding Health and Social Care Services' strategic framework to the House.

Christopher Stalford (DUP, Belfast South)

I thank the Minister for his statement. I remind Members that this is not a meeting of the Ad Hoc Committee, so I have no flexibility. Under Standing Orders, we have an hour, and, once the hour is up, the hour is up.

Colm Gildernew (Sinn Féin, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

I thank the Minister for coming to the Chamber to make this important statement. I wish to acknowledge every one of those 537 individual tragedies, as well as the huge amount of work that has been done across the Department in the response.

I welcome the part of the Minister's statement indicating that the approach will be one of innovation, transformation and, most importantly, collaboration. Given that the Minister has established a new management board for rebuilding health and social care services that will give clear direction to the Health and Social Care Board, the PHA and the trusts, will he chair the management board to ensure that rebuilding is a priority? How often will the board meet formally?

Robin Swann (UUP, North Antrim)

The management board will be chaired by the permanent secretary. I can and will be in attendance as often as possible to make sure that it meets as frequently as is necessary in the beginning. A similar structure, although not a formal one, got us into place during the surge plans. It allowed a flexible approach, with the Department working with HSC, BSO and the trusts to enable us to look at a regional approach to COVID-19. As the Chairperson will be fully aware from the briefings that we have given him, as we were able to move, through various steps, to a COVID-19 surge plan — depending on how serious the surge was — this facility will take us back to establishing a functioning Health and Social Care service across Northern Ireland at a regional level.

On the consultation and the collaborative response, the document refers to — the Member will see it now that it is published — staff involvement, new ways of working and working along the lines of co-production to make sure that it is not solely the management board giving direction but that consideration is given to, and there is consultation with, all stakeholders and users as we take this forward. However, the first stage, what we are doing in June, is a quick reflex to make sure that we can get as many services up and running again as possible.

Pam Cameron (DUP, South Antrim)

I thank the Minister for his statement to the House. We are all aware, Minister, that, in the face of COVID-19, health services have been launched into even deeper crisis than they were in before. I note from the 'Rebuilding Health and Social Care Services Strategic Framework' that the New Decade, New Approach priorities are in disarray, with just two of the items showing with green lights for delivery; those are the 'Mental Health Action Plan' and the extra 900 nursing and midwifery undergraduate places over three years. Minister, when will we see healthcare that looks remotely like normal and where the urgent physical healthcare needs are being met?

Robin Swann (UUP, North Antrim)

I thank the Deputy Chair for her point. On page 15 of the document, we have laid out all our New Decade, New Approach targets. She is right that there are only two that are green at this minute in time: our 'Mental Health Action Plan', which we published a couple of weeks ago, and the extra 900 nursing and midwifery undergraduate places. I want to put on record my thanks to all the nursing students, medical students and dental students who came forward to answer the call to support our health and social care services during the COVID-19 pandemic.

The Member asks when we will see health and social care services return to normal. I do not want to put a timeline on that. That is why we were looking at the three-month incremental steps. We cannot go back to the service that we left in January, because our waiting lists were getting longer and our nurses were on strike because of pay conditions and safe staffing conditions. It is about using the opportunity that we have in these three-monthly review steps to make sure that we have a health and social care system that supports the patients who need urgent care and routine care but also ensures that staff across our entire health and social care system are safe, confident and supported in the job that they do in supporting the people who need their help and care. So, while I am disappointed that we are not far advanced on our New Decade, New Approach targets, I hope that the Member and the House accept that, due to the exceptional circumstances that we are in, those targets were unachievable. However, they are still targets that are in New Decade, New Approach, so they are targets for the entire Executive. These are the ones that are specific to Health, and that is why we have detailed them in this document.

Colin McGrath (Social Democratic and Labour Party, South Down)

I begin by apologising to the Member for North Antrim, whom I walked in front of when he was making his point of order. When I entered the room, I did not see that he was doing that.

I welcome the Minister's reference to providing:

"high priority and urgent services such as emergency care and ... cancer treatments."

Only one emergency department in the whole of England, Scotland and Wales was closed as part of COVID yet we had three closed here, two of which are in and serve the constituency of South Down. Do you agree with me that reopening these services will help to get us back to normality, increasing and enhancing patient flow and enabling people to go to emergency departments and not clog up the other centres? If finance is an issue, would he consider scrapping the COVID centres, which the GP sector absolutely laments as a waste of time and money. Some of those centres see only three patients a day, yet they have cost hundreds and hundreds of thousands of pounds to maintain.

Robin Swann (UUP, North Antrim)

I will start with the Member's second point on the COVID centres. I am aware of a small number of GPs who refer to them like that. The majority of GPs representative bodies that I talk to — and I have talked to a lot of them — see the benefits and positives of the COVID centres because they have taken COVID-postive patients out of normal practices. As we take our incremental and then further steps out of the lockdown in society, there is a risk, which the Executive and the Department of Health accept, that we could see an increase in COVID. That is where those COVID centres will come into their own again. They have served the people of Northern Ireland well. They have served health service provision well and have seen collaborative working across primary and secondary care that was previously unseen at such a level in Northern Ireland. I do not accept the Member's criticism of COVID-19 centres. I have seen some GPs who are of that mind, but the majority whom I talk to definitely have seen the benefit. It about looking at how we use them now and prioritising and further utilising what they could deliver.

The Member will see, when the trusts present their individual recovery plans, that there is reference to a number of emergency departments and when they may come back online. I do not see them coming back in this first stage in the month of June, but, further down the line in the three-month steps, they may be there, and that is as the trusts develop where they see the need and utilisation.

Christopher Stalford (DUP, Belfast South)

Before I call the next Member, I gently remind Members that they may ask more than one question but the Minister is obliged to answer only one, and he gets to pick and choose. Let us try to keep it a bit more focused.

Alan Chambers (UUP, North Down)

I thank the Minister for his statement and for his continuing work and that of his team to protect the public of Northern Ireland, which to date has been with their cooperation. I welcome the Minister's commitment in his statement to rebuilding our health services. Is the Minister confident that the Finance Minister will make available the funds to deliver his rebuilding plans?

Robin Swann (UUP, North Antrim)

I thank the Member for his question. We have received financial support over the last number of months as and when we have needed it to respond to COVID-19. We have been fortunate that the Barnett consequentials that have come from Westminster have allowed us to do much of that work. In regards to the funding for the next steps and the transformation, New Decade, New Approach changes, the challenges to elective care and the support for our nurses' pay banding that resolved the strike issues were all Executive commitments. It is the commitment of the Executive and not just that of the Finance Minister that we will have to rely on to make sure that our health and social care system is funded to deliver for the entirety of Northern Ireland.

Paula Bradshaw (Alliance, Belfast South)

I thank the Minister for giving his statement today. My question is also about the COVID-19 centres. I have been contacted by GPs who also see low numbers coming through and are very keen to get back to their own surgeries to deal with the patient backlog. Given the large number of vacancies in the GP workforce, how does he plan to man those in the short to medium term as outlined in the strategic framework?

Robin Swann (UUP, North Antrim)

I thank the Member for her question. We are reviewing current workforce provision in those centres, and it will be on an on-call basis going forward. As we still try to manage and prepare for a second surge, should it come, the COVID-19 centres have proved to be critical in our response. When we developed them, they were copied in other parts of the United Kingdom, as they saw them as a way of primary and secondary care working together to tackle COVID-19 and to keep it out of our normal GP surgeries. Part of the greatest concern that a lot of GPs had came from the fact that, if we were mixing COVID-positive and COVID-negative patients when they presented at GP surgeries, there was an opportunity for cross infection. The COVID-19 centres give an easier route for diagnosis, treatment and onward referral to hospital, if necessary. The COVID-19 centres prove useful at this time. As we start to step out of our challenge with and fight against COVID-19, and we move in our next monthly and three-monthly stages, we will look at how we can maybe utilise the centres in different ways, as well as making sure that the capacity and facility is still there to tackle any future surge.

Alex Easton (DUP, North Down)

I thank the Minister for his statement and welcome what he has said. In his statement, the Minister mentions looking for increased funding. Does he have any idea or a rough idea of how much funding will be needed? Can he give a guarantee that, as we ramp up outpatient appointments and operations, patients will be treated safely to ensure that they do not catch COVID-19?

Robin Swann (UUP, North Antrim)

I will go to the Member's second question first with regard to how we make sure that those patients approaching normal service provision, should it be operations or diagnoses, are kept safe — and that the staff are kept safe as well. I know about the Member's sister, whom he has mentioned at the Health Committee, and wish her a speedy recovery. We need to make sure that we have a health service that can provide support to COVID and non-COVID patients, so we may look at changing the utilisation of some facilities. There may be COVID-positive centres only treating COVID patients or COVID-neutral centres where patients who do not have COVID are treated. We have to look at how we use the physical space, but also how we support the staff. We will see a complete change in how PPE is used across our healthcare sector in the months and even years ahead.

With regard to the Member's specific financial question, I think that there is a paper coming to the Health Committee in the next week or so that will detail that. I do not have it in front of me, but the Member, as a member of the Health Committee, will receive that briefing.

Pat Sheehan (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as ucht a ráitis. I thank the Minister for his statement. I appreciate the difficulties that he is going to have in reestablishing normal services in our health system. I also acknowledge that he describes this as a "quick reflex". However, given that the membership of the management board is going to be made up almost exclusively of senior DOH managers and other senior managers within the health and social care system, with no involvement from trade union representative groups or patient bodies, does the Minister not think that he has missed an opportunity here? He mentioned partnership working and collaboration in his statement, but the essence of transformation is about co-design and co-production. Does he not consider that he has missed an opportunity here to involve everyone in rebuilding the health service and getting back to normal?

Robin Swann (UUP, North Antrim)

I thank the Member for his point, which is well made. The quick reflex is something that we have to do immediately with regard to the surge plans. As we stepped services down and concentrated them in a number of areas, it was about how quickly we could get back to normality. When the Member gets a chance to refer to the document itself, he will find on page 27:

"Communication with Patients ... Staff Involvement ... Ensure you have a consistent approach to meaningful involvement of staff in developing solutions and in decisions which affect their working lives",

so it is about consultation. In addition, as each trust chief executive comes to that board, they will bring the input from their board members and stakeholders. There are a number of references throughout the document to the new ways of working, and that is to ensure that the principles of co-production are embedded in rebuilding HSC services going forward. Co-production is also referred to at paragraph 5.7, so it is actually embedded in the document.

On the management board itself, we do not have that representation. Previously within the Department, we had three structures. The transformation improvement group (TIG) was similar to the body that we have here, the transformation advisory board (TAB) included the stakeholders and union membership that the Member referred to and the ministerial advisory group (MAG) was a cross-cutting section of the same organisations that met directly with the Minister. That structure had been established by Minister O'Neill. One of the things that I did before COVID was to look at how we could join MAG and TAB into one organisation so that we had those stakeholders talking to and engaging with me directly, rather than sitting on a specific board. The direction towards co-production and engagement is there, although those bodies may not be represented on the management board.

Jonathan Buckley (DUP, Upper Bann)

I thank the Minister for his statement and for the strategic framework. The Minister has rightly outlined the severe impact that COVID-19 has had on a range of cancer services across the system in Northern Ireland, and this news today will come as some relief to some of those cancer patients. Potentially, we can move towards regularisation of the services provided.

Does he agree that we must adopt the same will and determination as we applied to COVID in the fight against cancer in Northern Ireland?

The Minister mentioned mental health: is there any update on the appointment of a mental health champion, as that will, hopefully, help many of those who are potentially suffering adverse mental health on the back of COVID-19?

Robin Swann (UUP, North Antrim)

Cancer is a scourge across this society that, I would say, has affected everyone in the House, whether through family, friends or colleagues. Again, when the Member gets the opportunity to refer to the full document, he will see that the first thing that we talk about in the action list, in annex A, is cancer care. We lay out strategic and specific directions on what cancer care pathways used to look like, how we are adopting the innovation that we have seen over the past eight weeks and what the new pathways to accessing service look like now.

I will say this to Members, and, as a constituency MLA and public representative, I know that this is something that will be hard for many to take: while we go through the next steps in the next number of months, we may ask people to go outside their normal route to service or treatment. I would rather look at how we tackle waiting lists and how we stop measuring them in months or years but in weeks and days or even miles. Individuals may have to travel that bit further to gain a specialist service while we reconfigure the Department of Health so that we get people treated more quickly across Northern Ireland on a regional basis, rather than solely at their local hospital.

One of the discrepancies that we saw in the past was a postcode approach, where how quickly an individual might be seen and treated depended on which trust area they lived in. In the next months, we will look at a regional approach to getting on top of our waiting lists and starting to tackle those who have been seriously adversely impacted on in the past number of weeks.

Órlaithí Flynn (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

I thank the Minister for his statement, particularly his comments that transformation will be at the heart of the approach to rebuilding health and social care services. We know that health transformation, when properly funded and based on partnership working with service users and all those in health and social care, is essential to building the future of our health and social care system. How will the Minister work with the transformation advisory board to progress the transformation? I am not sure from his response to Pat whether the new management board will supersede or replace the transformation advisory board.

Robin Swann (UUP, North Antrim)

I apologise for the confusion. There is the ministerial advisory group, which is akin to the new management board and always was. The transformation advisory board (TAB) was there in the past, along with the ministerial advisory group. Therefore, there were two organisations that were made up of largely the same stakeholders doing roughly the same job. As I said to Pat, before COVID-19, I started work to bring those two groups together because they involved our trade union colleagues as well as service users. I wanted to bring them into one body that could advise me, as Minister, on how the outworkings of the recommendations that came from the management advisory group were working and changing the direction and what health service provision looks like. It is making sure that they are there to consult me, rather than being part of the board.

Pat Catney (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Lagan Valley)

I thank the Minister and his team for producing the strategy, and I completely agree with him that we have to address the wider impact of COVID-19 across the service. The strategy makes startling reading about the dire situation that the service is in. However, one thing that is clear is that there is no chance of progress and recovery without the hard work, adaptability and ingenuity of health service staff.

Minister, I welcome the establishment of the management board. My only concern is that it seems similar to existing groups such as the transformation implementation group and the transformation advisory board. Does the Minister agree that it is crucial that the board is outcomes-focused and that front-line staff who deliver care on the ground are fully engaged in its work?

Robin Swann (UUP, North Antrim)

I refer the Member to my previous two answers. The management group looks like TIG — I cannot remember what it was called; it was the management board, anyway. TAB was the transformation advisory board, which was the stakeholders. This is about strategic direction and about management and direction of travel, so it is right that it comprises senior members of the Department along with BSO, the Health and Social Care Board and the trusts. The recommendation and the document put that into a more formalised structure rather than just an advisory structure to me as Minister.

Mike Nesbitt (UUP, Strangford)

Mental health and well-being has traditionally been regarded as a Cinderella service that is in need of massive investment. The Minister has made it clear today that COVID-19 will make a serious situation much, much worse. Is he confident that his Executive colleagues are aware of the scale of the investment that is necessary to tackle that and that they will make that support and resource available to him?

Robin Swann (UUP, North Antrim)

I assure the Member that my Executive colleagues are aware of that, because I have made them aware of it. I have bids in with the Department of Finance for the future funding of the service. However, we are also aware that Westminster may be moving to support the mental health outcomes and support mechanisms of their health service and, hopefully, Barnett consequentials will come to Northern Ireland from that Westminster spend. My job as Minister of Health will be to make sure that those moneys are ring-fenced and used to support the mental health provision that has been so in need of central support in the past. The new Executive that came in on 11 January recognised that as a key priority in tackling mental health in Northern Ireland.

I apologise: I have just realised that I did not answer the question about the appointment of the mental health champion. The formal process for that appointment is well under way, and we hope to announce not just the process but possibly an interim mental health champion until the formal consultation on the appointment takes place.

Liz Kimmins (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

I thank the Minister for his statement. It is welcome that we now have a bit of a road map ahead of us for the restoration of services. I pay tribute to the pathfinder group in my constituency, which has done excellent work over the last three years to ensure the retention of the emergency department at Daisy Hill Hospital. The work of that group is a model that could be used in lots of other areas.

On that note, how will the Minister decide what services will reopen first? Will he ensure that we avoid a postcode lottery and that services in centralised sites will not be opened first on that basis to the detriment of other hospitals such as Daisy Hill? I have been engaging with the chief executive of the Southern Trust on that matter and was pleased to see its plan this morning as well. The reopening of the emergency department is, obviously, not part of that for this first phase, so I am keen to hear more about that.

Robin Swann (UUP, North Antrim)

The Member has described the statement as a road map, and I have no doubts that there will be bumps in the road. As we look to open up services again, the work that has been done by each of the six trusts to bring forward their initial plans for June has been highly strategic. They are looking at what service provision they can restart as soon as possible without getting caught up in process or implementation. We need to get back to a place where we provide healthcare for the majority of the people of Northern Ireland.

As I said in an earlier answer, Members may see some of our healthcare being delivered differently, because we asked people to look at a regionalised and a Northern Ireland-wide service rather than simply going to their local one. If we start to look at that regionalised service, we will also start to look at regionalised waiting lists so that they are the same across the region. People on waiting lists will be triaged according to medical and surgical need, and that will be done by the professionals who have always delivered that service to make sure that those who are most in need are at the top of the regional waiting lists. That will, hopefully, deliberately remove the postcode lottery that we have seen, unfortunately, in some instances in the past.

Andrew Muir (Alliance, North Down)

I thank the Minister for the statement, particularly the section on general dentistry, opticians and allied health professionals. I have been contacted by many people in that industry, and the role that they have and the services that they provide are invaluable. I know that as a runner, given the number of injuries that I have managed to incur that have made me revert to using physios.

One thing that they are really looking for is guidance on how to operate and on financial assistance going forward because of the public health requirements that will be put in place. What consideration will be given to giving that financial assistance so that those services can continue to be delivered for our community?

Robin Swann (UUP, North Antrim)

I know that we have, as a Department, put financial support into dentistry provision to keep dentists operating during this difficult time. To get their services back, we have established recovery groups that comprise representatives from the Health and Social Care Board, the representative trade body and my officials, who are examining how non-urgent services can be resumed as well as developing operational guidance. Those groups are expected to report again in the coming weeks, and that will inform the decision on when routine dental care can start to return.

In the context of the recent announcements on the return to dentistry services in the rest of the UK and the Republic of Ireland, the Chief Dental Officer has published outline plans for the return of dental services in Northern Ireland. The Minister for the Economy was looking at the financial support for the other allied health professionals rather than it being done through the Department of Health. Some of those service providers operate as individual businesses rather than providers for the Department, but support and guidance are available.

Mark Durkan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

I thank the Minister for his statement. The Minister and Members have spoken of the impact of the pandemic and the lockdown on people's mental health. It is fair enough to presume that there will be an ongoing increase in the need for support and services. The pandemic is also having a devastating impact on community mental health services, particularly community and voluntary organisations and charities, which have yet to receive any financial assistance. With demand increasing and important preventative and early intervention projects being severely depleted, it is also fair to assume that more people, sadly and inevitably, will reach crisis point. With that in mind, does the Minister concur that it would be extremely short-sighted — in fact, it would be scandalous — should the Executive choose not to fund the Community Crisis Intervention Service in my constituency?

Robin Swann (UUP, North Antrim)

The Member has written to me and texted me. He has been in regular contact about the service that he talks about. I have asked my officials to look at it in regard to how we support the mental health action plan and the Protect Life 2 funding to see what opportunities there are. I know that the additional provision that has come from the council is also being challenged because of the financial situation it finds itself in.

The Member will be fully aware that the Minister for Communities has a support mechanism and funding for charities. I will check with her to see where that support is and how it is being given to the charities that need it at this minute in time.

Roy Beggs (UUP, East Antrim)

I, too, thank the Minister his statement and put on record my appreciation of Health and Social Care and, indeed, the voluntary care staff and the volunteers who have assisted over the recent period.

In his statement, the Minister referred to the need to mainstream innovation that had been learnt recently, and he referred to the Encompass programme. Can the Minister give examples of recent innovation that can lead to improvements in healthcare for the wider community?

Robin Swann (UUP, North Antrim)

I thank the Member for his point. Encompass is a digitalisation programme that was in place before COVID, but what we have seen in the past period, as we have dealt with COVID, is the utilisation of digitalisation and online and telephone triage that has worked and has been supportive, always bearing it in mind that there is a point in time where face-to-face consultation is the best way forward. It is those innovations that we have seen on telemedicine stuff, which had been talked about and supported in the past but had never been developed or adopted, and we are now seeing those advances being part of common practice. It is about how we embed that innovation into our day-to-day delivery and do not take a step back into those gains that have been lost. It is also support that we have seen between our GP practices and community pharmacies. We have seen far better collaboration between them.

It is about the general breaking down of what were perceived in the past as silo mentalities, which were not silo mentalities but were simply ways of working that had developed over time. We have seen those broken down and that mentality cracked over the past weeks. It is about how we take forward that work to make sure that all the good developments, all the relationships that have been built and all the working practices that have been developed and are working well are now embedded in the service.

Justin McNulty (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Newry and Armagh)

I thank the Minister for his statement and for his role in endeavouring to navigate these uncharted COVID-19 waters. I note that this morning Members from my constituency received by email a copy of the Southern Trust's rebuilding plan. The plan sets out phase 1, which runs to 30 June, and phase 2, which runs to 30 September. Minister, given the potential hidden consequences of the fear that people have of attending the health service during this pandemic, would you apply whatever pressure you can to ensure that the reopening of the Daisy Hill emergency department occurs as early as possible in phase 2 of the plan.

Robin Swann (UUP, North Antrim)

As the Member said, he has already had the opportunity to read the entirety of the trust's plan. The trust is bringing forward those staged recommendations and, as I said in my statement, our first stage will be what we do in June and that is stage 1. We will then look at a three-month increment. It is always cognisant of where the service delivery is, but it is also cognisant of how we support our staff. Members must always be mindful that when we talk about service delivery and things going back to normal we are asking people who have put themselves through physical hell — excuse my language, Principal Deputy Speaker — over the past weeks.

At one point in January, they were standing on picket lines about their pay, conditions and safe working standards. They then stepped up to an intensity and a delivery of service that no one in this House could ever have imagined at that time. Each of those healthcare professionals, no matter where they are, or where they were, on the spectrum of delivery, delivered a service that has seen us record zero deaths for the past two days. That is because of what those people delivered.

When we talk about simply returning services, yes we want to get back to providing as many services as quickly as possible, but we must also be mindful that the people we are asking to get back into those places do need a wee bit of space to recuperate and recharge their batteries. We are just coming out of what was a terrible pandemic and I hope that we continue to take the trajectory that we have over the last few days.

Rachel Woods (Green, North Down)

I thank the Minister for his statement on the rebuilding, reopening and transformation of the health and social care services. I welcome and echo his call that, if people suspect that they require medical intervention for whatever reason, they seek it. I am sure that most Members have had that matter raised by constituents. How will the Minister, alongside the trusts and as part of the rebuilding strategy, ensure that women have access to contraceptive services and early medical abortion services when required?

Robin Swann (UUP, North Antrim)

I am aware that that provision was debated in the Chamber, I think last week or the week before. With regard to the delivery of abortion, that is a provision that this House should debate and decide on how it is delivered in Northern Ireland; it is not something that should be imposed on us by Westminster. At this minute in time, such provision has not been commissioned by my Department, but I am aware that it is being delivered by some trusts.

Jim Allister (Traditional Unionist Voice, North Antrim)

As the Minister moves our service from the national COVID service back to the National Health Service, I express disappointment that in the Northern Trust's phase 1 there is no return of the maternity services to the Causeway Hospital. Will the Minister give us an indication when that will happen, and that it is not a service that has been stripped out, never to return?

In terms of the framework going forward, is there not a danger with new advisory boards, new management boards, three-monthly service plans, expert advisers to this and that, and has it not got the feel of a bureaucracy bonanza? Is there a danger that the whole thing could get caught up in ever-strangling red tape?

Robin Swann (UUP, North Antrim)

I thank the Member for his questions and I am glad that I am not able to shield from them as he accused other Members and Ministers of doing earlier.

In regard to the bureaucracy that he referred to, this actually moves away from some of that and the ability of some boards and structures to hide behind bureaucracy and decision-making. The management board is comprised of senior executives in trusts and senior departmental officials answering to me as Minister. Our health service is not going to get caught up in bureaucracy or strangulation. I will be back in this House, and the Member is free to challenge at any time if he sees that as a direction that this structure is going in.

The three-monthly review allows us to make sure that we step back from, as he referred to it, the national COVID health service — because that is what we became for a number of weeks while we challenged the pandemic — to where we should be in the delivery of the services that we were delivering, always mindful that there may come a time when we need to step back into that COVID support.

The return of maternity services to the Causeway Hospital is within the Northern Health and Social Care Trust's stepped approach. They do not see that returning in June in the first phase of the plan, but I have seen correspondence that said that it is something they are planning. I have been assured that the service will return, but there is no timetable for that at the minute. From a constituency point of view, I know that the Member has championed and argued for that service to return to the Causeway Hospital so that it can deliver for the people of East Londonderry and North Antrim.

Gerry Carroll (People Before Profit Alliance, Belfast West)

I thank the Minister for his statement. The Minister mentioned mental health. There is a lot of concern about the likely increase in mental health problems after this pandemic, and in people presenting with those problems. That needs to be reflected in spending and the allocation of budgets by the Department.

Given the much-welcomed support, praise and clapping for NHS staff, including carers, what assurances can the Minister give that any transformation will not mean the whittling down or privatisation of existing health services? Can he assure us that there will not be a shock-doctrine approach to the NHS?

Robin Swann (UUP, North Antrim)

I can answer the Member in one word: yes. I can give you that assurance. This is not about the privatisation of the health service.

One of the greatest things that has supported Northern Ireland through the COVID-19 pandemic is the fact that we have a National Health Service. We have a health service that is free at the point of use and free at the point of delivery, and I am proud of that. When we went out on a Thursday night and clapped, it was for the entirety of that National Health Service.

I utilised provision and support from the private sector in past weeks to make sure that we had capacity. If we now need to utilise that provision to get on top of and tackle some of our waiting lists, I will use it. I will give a commitment to the Member that I see no opportunity and will take no opportunity while I am Minister for further privatisation or any privatisation of our National Health Service.

Christopher Stalford (DUP, Belfast South)

Thank you, Minister. Because Members were concise, we have about 20 minutes left, so if any Member wants to ask an additional question of the Minister, if they rise in their place or catch my eye, I will call them.

Colm Gildernew (Sinn Féin, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

What plans are in place so that we rebuild in a way that addresses and tackles existing health inequalities?

Robin Swann (UUP, North Antrim)

Again, I thank the Chair for his question. Taking a regional approach, managed by that board, should and will tackle discrepancies that we have seen in the past. I referred, maybe inadvertently, to the silo mentality. That is not a criticism of any of our trusts and the way that they have operated. It is just because of their day-to-day operations and the restrictions they have working in a geographical area that that is the way their service has been focussed. It is how we now utilise cross-region working and cross-sector working, should it be primary, secondary or community, to ensure that we all come together with the same focus: health delivery for the people of Northern Ireland.

Jonathan Buckley (DUP, Upper Bann)

Minister, one of the key, fundamental issues that we saw in the health service before COVID-19 was the abuse of A&E. Has the Minister given any consideration to that? Can we learn anything from COVID that will prevent the future abuse of A&E services across Northern Ireland? Such abuse puts a strain on the health workers whom we have rightly championed throughout this crisis.

Robin Swann (UUP, North Antrim)

The Member is right to highlight that. When I came into post on 11 January, which seems a long, long time ago, two of the biggest factors that we were tackling were waiting lists and the time spent in emergency departments by people who were utilising them but did not need to be there. It was not that they were abusing the system, but there was better provision elsewhere within the health service from which they should have sought help. MDTs that can provide physiotherapy support and mental health support have been established. Maybe we can look at a different utilisation of the COVID centres currently used for those who are COVID positive. There might be an opportunity to ease the work of emergency departments.

A major piece of work to review emergency departments has already commenced in the Department and should come to fruition in the next number of weeks. It looks at how we could do things differently. One of the things that the review involved was the utilisation of telemedicine and telephone triaging, which are now well established in our health service and can be used to take pressure off the emergency departments.

I want to highlight one issue. In the past, we stood and clapped for our health workers and commended them. However, at the start of this week, I was disgusted to see that there had been 35 attacks on our ambulance crews. While we talk about the great work that our people are doing, there are still those in society who look to abuse not only the system but our staff — the people who have put themselves on the front line and at risk, and, with the COVID situation, even, at times, put their families at risk. I want to take this opportunity to condemn those who still see our health workers as an easy target. I think that, at some point, there should be a provision whereby an attack on any health service worker reveals the full force of the law.

Colin McGrath (Social Democratic and Labour Party, South Down)

Thank you very much, Mr Principal Deputy Speaker, for the additional questions. We are like kids being told that we have an extra 20 minutes in a sweet shop.

My question follows on from your last remarks, Minister. You talked about the reviews that will take place within the trusts. Is the Ambulance Service trust included? As the sixth trust, it is almost forgotten at times. It found that there was some easing of demand at the start of the process because people were not attending A&E in the same numbers. However, those numbers are starting to increase, and we are starting to see the ambulance corridors in hospitals backing up. You will know, being from a rural constituency, as am I, that our ambulances end up getting trapped in the cities and unable to move. Yesterday, I met the chief executive of the Ambulance Service to discuss cases. On two or three occasions, people who were in dire need had to wait for 45 minutes for an ambulance. Will that form part of this review?

Robin Swann (UUP, North Antrim)

If the Member looks back at my comments, he will see that I talk about "our six trusts", which include the Ambulance Service trust. It is always included because it is integral. It is one of the original trusts. It works across other departments as well.

We are conscious of the pressures that the Ambulance Service has been under, not just the attacks but as we start to see the need increase. During the pandemic, we had to step down our emergency helicopter service. Fortunately, it is up and running again and providing the critical service to rural constituencies that the Member referred to. Utilising that part of the health family is vital.

The Member talked about waiting times in EDs and the ambulance corridors. At the point when we were seeing less use of the emergency departments, those were not so much of a problem. However, that utilisation is starting to increase, and that, in addition to the social distancing required in emergency departments and waiting rooms, is putting additional weight on ambulance times. We are cognisant of that and are supporting the Ambulance Service while we work through the step-out plan. When the trust plans are published — I think that they already have been — they will include one for the Ambulance Service trust.

Christopher Stalford (DUP, Belfast South)

Mr McGrath referred to a sweet shop: please do not gorge yourself with 13 minutes left and six Members looking to get in.

Mike Nesbitt (UUP, Strangford)

Earlier, a couple of Members made reference to the call by some to wrap up the COVID-19 centres on the basis that they are not the most efficient use of resources and funding. Given that the second wave of coronavirus is still a distinct possibility, will the Minister agree that the expression "Better safe than sorry" trumps all other considerations?

Robin Swann (UUP, North Antrim)

With regard to how our planning has been progressed over the past 10 weeks, that is one of the factors that we have always taken into consideration. It is about making some of these decisions, and, although it was hard at the time, I was always looking to the worst-case scenario that we could have seen ourselves in.

With regard to the COVID-19 centre and my answers to Members earlier, my robust defence of them is the fact that we have a number of GPs and GP representative organisations who speak highly of them and see them as a critical piece of the front-line service in how we were fit to manage COVID-19 by keeping those patients out of the normal GP surgeries and the normal run of the mill.

I am in no doubt that we will see an increase in COVID-19, because, as we allow people to come back out into their normal way of life, coming out of lockdown, accessing retail, leisure facilities, tourism, hotels and all the rest of it over the next few weeks and months, there will be increase of COVID-19 cases in Northern Ireland. We will still need the facilities and the structure to support those people when they need it. I think that the COVID-19 centres have proven beneficial in doing that.

Paula Bradshaw (Alliance, Belfast South)

I would appreciate it if people did not misrepresent my question: my question was about how we were going to manage the COVID-19 centres and get our GP surgeries back up and running with an overstretched GP workforce.

My second question relates to the community pharmacy services. In the Committee for Health, we put through the regs relating to the emergency supply service, which has obviously been very beneficial. Is the time right for a longer-term routine repeat prescription service to be made available between our community pharmacists and GPs, given how effectively they have worked together during the pandemic?

Robin Swann (UUP, North Antrim)

Pharmacies working with GPs was one of the innovations that I spoke of. In the early stages of the pandemic, staff capacity fell below 70% and in recent weeks. It has improved to 80% in our community pharmacy. The new emergency supply service that was introduced provided access to prescriptions and medicines in the event that a patient had run out of their repeat medicine and could not access their GP, so that enhanced facility was in place. It has worked well. In collaboration with community pharmacy and our chief pharmacist, we are having that conversation about how we adopt the changes that were made.

Also, the delivery service in community pharmacy was mostly supported by volunteers who came forward to deliver. At the last count, the collaboration between the Health and Social Care Board and the Community Development and Health Network led to 120 community groups registering to deliver prescriptions. By one point last week, 33,000 prescriptions had been delivered safely by volunteers. Therefore, it is not just about the repeat proscriptions; it is about how the entire community pharmacy service is provided, going forward. They were a vital link over the past number of weeks while we combated COVID-19. Again, many family-run shops and services put themselves on the front line. At the very initial point, as I referred to earlier on, they took an awful lot of abuse and criticism from frustrated people who were going into the pharmacies. They stood up to a lot, they have adapted and they are in need of additional support from the Department of Health and the Executive. However, we need to make sure that we adapt any positive working collaborations that they have with GPs and that they are embedded into future service provision.

Pam Cameron (DUP, South Antrim)

I will also ask about the pharmacy issue, given that pharmacy has become the front line in the pandemic and has been there and has worked incredibly hard throughout. What additional support will the Minister give to the pharmacy sector, and what conversations is he having with it on the role that it can play in transformation in the midst of the pandemic?

Robin Swann (UUP, North Antrim)

Last week or the week before, I met the board of Community Pharmacy Northern Ireland. We had a good engagement. In recent weeks, the Department, the HSC Board and Community Pharmacy Northern Ireland has completed extensive work to agree a new commissioning plan for community pharmacy services for the rest of 2020-21. That will build on lessons learned in the pandemic to date to ensure that pharmacies continue to provide the public with access to medicines, advice and treatment for common conditions and support for health and well-being. Pharmacists and pharmacy teams in trusts have adapted their working practices and introduced innovative solutions, working in intensive care units. Clinical pharmacists and clinical technicians have joined their colleagues in critical care teams. Pharmacists have used technology to hold virtual clinics to maintain contact with and support for patients taking specialist treatments. That has been a positive engagement between the Department, the Health and Social Care Board and Community Pharmacy Northern Ireland, and I hope that it will bear fruit in the next few weeks, if not days.

Pat Sheehan (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

The Minister referred in his statement to experts who will assist in the rebuilding strategy. Will he identify those experts? Will he also commit not only to transparency about their identity but to the public accessibility and visibility of that advice, contrary to the approach taken by the Scientific Advisory Group for Emergencies (SAGE) in London, which has been very secretive?

Robin Swann (UUP, North Antrim)

Certainly, I will give the Member that commitment. If we bring any in, we will make sure that they are named and that their advice is published.

Liz Kimmins (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

I thank the Minister for the opportunity to ask another question. As it is Carers' Week, it is important that we pay tribute to the thousands of unpaid carers who, throughout the pandemic, have very much held court, for want of a better word, with the closure of day centres and facilities that are a major lifeline to help them through very difficult times. Can the Minister update the House on the reopening of day centres and respite services? I know that the plan is to work towards that: can we ensure that it is a top priority? Many families feel that they have been very much left to their own devices. Can he ensure that support is available to them, going forward?

Robin Swann (UUP, North Antrim)

The Member is right: it is Carers' Week, so it is right that their commitment is acknowledged. Over the past number of weeks, they have gone over and above what was ever expected of them in the support that they have given to their family members and loved ones without the additional support of respite centres, which have always been relied on for peace of mind as places of support for their loved ones. As I said, stage 1 gets us to the end of June. Then, each trust will look at a review every three months. I will ensure that respite and day centres are as far up those priorities as practically possible, while always taking into consideration the health and well-being not only of users but of staff.

Christopher Stalford (DUP, Belfast South)

We have four minutes left, and three Members wish to ask questions. Can we have short questions and short answers, please?

Rachel Woods (Green, North Down)

Thank you, Mr Principal Deputy Speaker, for the additional time to ask questions. I refer to my previous question and the Minister's answer. Can the Minister ensure that, as part of the reopening and rebuilding strategy, women will have access to contraceptive services when they require them, given that those services have not been available?

Robin Swann (UUP, North Antrim)

I refer to my previous answer: those services are available through some trusts and are being delivered at trust level, not by a central, departmentally commissioned service.

Jim Allister (Traditional Unionist Voice, North Antrim)

Can the Minister update the House on the health service's current level of reliance on the private sector and how he sees that evolving, going forward?

Robin Swann (UUP, North Antrim)

I refer the Member to my answer to Gerry Carroll. We are using some independent services to ensure that we keep up to date with red-flag cancer services and a number of other procedures at a day-care level. In 'New Decade, New Approach', there was a bid for £50 million per year to tackle waiting lists. Some of that money would have gone to the independent sector, because it is the only way we could have got on top of and challenged those waiting lists. It is about making sure that we use the independent sector when it is available and when it is appropriate to do so, but we also have to make sure that, if there is additional money, it is invested in our National Health Service. The independent sector should be there as a supplement, not to be completely relied on.

Paul Givan (DUP, Lagan Valley)

Can the Minister advise when, in restarting the health service, routine surgeries and theatres will be opened up for people who are waiting on vital appointments that they still have not got? Secondly, as we reopen our economy and every other aspect, the World Health Organization has said that its advice is for social distancing at one metre. When will we move from two metres to one metre in line with the World Health Organization? That will be critical in going forward into some kind of normal semblance of society.

Robin Swann (UUP, North Antrim)

The re-engagement of service provision is what the plan is all about, including how we open up theatres to make sure that we can get back to delivering the service and the operations that people have been waiting for. People have been getting a six-week notification for procedures that they need, but we will cut that down. As we reopen, those notification times will be shorter, so, if people get a notification of access to the provision of healthcare and operations, I ask them to move as quickly as possible.

In regard to the question about two metres versus one metre, our scientific advisory group, which feeds into the Department of Health and the Executive, still very much takes the position that two metres is the right measurement at this minute in time. Members have to be cognisant of the fact that it is two metres for 15 minutes as an engagement of a positive case. If you reduce that measurement from two metres to one metre, you have to reduce the time that people interact to prevent the transmission of COVID-19. I recently got an estimate that, if we reduce our current advice — two metres for 15 minutes — to one metre, it could be as little as three minutes' interaction. When it comes to contact tracing and finding a positive case who could have transferred COVID-19, there are larger implications than simply accessing facilities or utilisation when it comes to the physical distance of two metres or one metre. It is also about the time of the interaction: that greatly reduces at the same measurement. That has to be taken into consideration. At this minute in time, our recommendation to the Executive is still two metres.

Christopher Stalford (DUP, Belfast South)

That concludes questions to the Minister on his statement. I thank the Minister for coming to the House and taking an hour's worth of questions. I wish him all the best as he leads our health service during this time.

Members should take their ease for a moment before we move on to the next item of business. It will allow other Ministers to get into the Chamber. Thank you.

Executive Committee Business

Christopher Stalford (DUP, Belfast South)

The next item of business is a motion to approve the draft Northern Ireland Criminal Injuries Compensation (Amendment 2020) Scheme (2009).

Naomi Long (Alliance, Belfast East)

I beg to move

That the draft Northern Ireland Criminal Injuries Compensation (Amendment 2020) Scheme (2009) be approved.

Christopher Stalford (DUP, Belfast South)

The Business Committee has agreed that there should be no time limit on this debate.

Naomi Long (Alliance, Belfast East)

The purpose of this amendment to the Northern Ireland Criminal Injuries Compensation Scheme is to enable victims of a crime of violence, who were living as members of the same household as their assailant between 1 March 1969 and 30 June 1988, to apply for criminal injuries compensation. From 1 March 1969 until 30 June 1988, both the Criminal Injuries to Persons (Compensation) Act 1968 and the Criminal Injuries (Compensation) (Northern Ireland) Order 1977 excluded claims for injuries inflicted on victims who were living as members of the same household as their assailant. That bar on eligibility was changed from July 1988, so same-household victims are only eligible to claim from that date under the 2009 scheme.

On 23 November 2018, the Court of Appeal in Northern Ireland delivered a judgement on a judicial review, overturning the same-household rule, stating that it was incompatible with human rights. A similar ruling in GB relating to the same-household rule was also overturned by the Court of Appeal for England and Wales. The GB compensation scheme has been amended as a result of that ruling.

There is limited information on the volume of applications that could be received by my Department as a result of removing the same-household rule from the criminal injuries scheme. However, it is estimated that around 800 applications may be eligible within the period 1969 to 1988, at an estimated 10-year cost to the Department of somewhere between £9·7 million and £18·5 million. Amending the same-household provision will address the Court of Appeal decision and bring the Northern Ireland Criminal Injuries Compensation Scheme into line with the GB scheme in relation to treatment of victims of same-household abuse.

I thank the Justice Committee for its careful consideration of the draft amendment. It is with its support that I can bring this draft amendment to the scheme before you today, and I commend the draft amendment to the House.

Paul Givan (DUP, Lagan Valley)

I am pleased to speak on behalf of the Committee for Justice in today's debate. Victims whose injuries were inflicted from 1 March 1969 to 30 June 1988 by assailants who were members of the same household are, as the Minister outlined, excluded from making claims for criminal injuries compensation. Under the Northern Ireland Criminal Injuries Compensation Scheme 2009, victims from 1 July 1988 can submit claims, but victims from before that date remain ineligible. The Court of Appeal in Northern Ireland concluded that the same-household bar was not justified in law in November 2018, and the amendment that we are considering today will, therefore, remove the same-household rule and allow victims of such a crime between 1 March 1969 and 30 June 1988 to apply for criminal injuries compensation.

The Committee first discussed the proposed removal of the same-household rule during an oral evidence session with Department of Justice officials on 23 January. At that time, the officials advised that the period covered by the amendment would be 1968 to 1988. Following that session, the Committee requested clarification on the position of cases pre-1968 and an indication of the number of cases that may be eligible between 1968 and 1988. In response, the Department advised that an impact assessment suggested, as the Minister outlined, that 800 people may be eligible to make a claim for that period.

The Committee was also advised that there was no criminal injuries compensation scheme in Northern Ireland prior to 11 June 1968, which is when the first scheme came into force and excluded injuries that were inflicted on victims who were members of the same household as their assailant. The Department later clarified that while the Criminal Injuries to Persons (Compensation) Act 1968 was made on 11 June 1968, it was not commenced until 1 March 1969. There was, therefore, no scheme in place until that date, and it is the date from which the amendment we are considering today will apply.

The Committee considered a written briefing from the Department on the proposed amendment to the scheme at the meeting on 14 May, as well as the details of the proposed amendment. The Committee noted that a similar amendment to the relevant scheme in England and Wales passed with wide support and came into force on 13 June 2019. This amendment will, therefore, ensure that victims of same-household abuse in Northern Ireland are not treated any less favourably than those in Great Britain.

The Department's briefing paper also detailed potential cost implications of between £9·7 million and £18·5 million over a 10-year period. The Committee will monitor that expenditure as part of its ongoing scrutiny of the Department of Justice budget.

Having considered the detailed briefing paper, the Committee agreed on 14 May that it was content with the proposed amendments to the scheme. At its meeting on 4 June, the Committee considered the papers for the draft Northern Ireland Criminal Injuries Compensation (Amendment 2020) Scheme (2009), which were laid by the Department of Justice on 29 May and which confirmed that there have been no changes to the policy intent since the proposals were considered by the Committee. The Committee recommended that the amended scheme be approved by the Assembly. Therefore, I support the motion on behalf of the Committee for Justice.

Linda Dillon (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

I have very little to add to what the Chair has already outlined, other than to thank the Minister for bringing this forward. It is a very positive move. It is important that those who live in the same home as their assailant are treated the same as anybody who suffers outside of that circumstance. I think that is important, particularly given the context of some of the issues that we are dealing with moving forward around coercive control behaviour, domestic violence, stalking and all those other issues. It is extremely important that we address that, and I welcome it.

Matthew O'Toole (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast South)

I, too, will speak very briefly on behalf of my party simply to welcome this change that has been brought forward by the Department and to thank the Justice Committee for expediting this and doing it promptly. This equalisation in the rules is completely the right thing to do in relation to same-household victims from post-1988 and also equalisation of victims here versus those in Britain. So, I very much welcome that change.

As Linda Dillon said, it is part of a broader agenda around other legislation going through the Assembly around support for victims and broader things. So, I very much welcome that change. It is an example of what we can do in fast time for real change for people with the reformed Assembly and Executive.

Doug Beattie (UUP, Upper Bann)

I thank the Minister for bringing forward the motion. This is an incredibly important motion, and I hope that we all get a chance to look in and understand it. Mental, physical and sexual abuse by somebody within one's own household is an insidious crime, and those people from 1969 to 1988 who were abused like that have been largely forgotten. I have been engaging with a young man who was sexually abused by his mother between 1976 and 1984. She was brought to court on 15 counts of sexual abuse. This is real. This is live.

We have 800 people who have registered for this scheme, but what concerns me slightly — and I know that the Minister will take action with regard to this — is that the new legislation only gives them two years to claim. So, it is incredibly important that when the legislation is enacted, we do something to reach out to those people who were abused so that they know that they can claim over the next two years, because I would not want to see, one month past that two-year point, somebody coming up and saying, "I was abused", but they are outside the window. I really hope that our communication plan is in place for that, and I think that we have time to do that. I am in no doubt whatsoever that the Minister will be on top of that.

For the individuals affected, it is not just about getting money for the criminal damage that they suffered through the abuse. It is acknowledgement and recognition that they went through it; it is that young man who went through it in the '70s and '80s — in a time when he could not go out because his area was controlled by paramilitaries — being listened to. That is what was happening over that period. We sometimes forget what it was like between 1969 and 1998. We may have 800 victims registered, but there could be more. There will be a cost, and we will have to absorb that cost, but we definitely must ensure that our communication plan is in place.

Kellie Armstrong (Alliance, Strangford)

Thank you, Minister Long. As others have said, the motion is important as it corrects an unfair retrospective exemption for criminal compensation on the basis that the victim lived in the same household as the perpetrator. On behalf of the Alliance Party, I welcome the motion and commend the Minister for righting an issue that, as she has confirmed, was completely incompatible with human rights.

Amending the same-household provision will bring Northern Ireland in line with the rest of the UK. It means that victims who were injured when they were living in the same household as the perpetrator, and who were previously excluded, can apply for compensation. I appreciate that that is limited to victims between 1969 and 1988. I note from the comments of Mr Beattie MLA that there is a two-year period within which victims will be able to claim. Will the Minister confirm whether she is working with groups in preparation for that claims process, because the last thing that any of us want — we must recognise this — is those 800 individuals being retraumatised by the process. They will need not only the criminal justice system, but the support mechanisms that are available in the community.

Christopher Stalford (DUP, Belfast South)

As no other Member has indicated a wish to speak, I call the Minister to conclude and make a winding-up speech on the motion.

Naomi Long (Alliance, Belfast East)

I thank all Members who have participated in the debate. Sometimes, the things that go through the Chamber most quickly are some of those that are most impactful on the people affected. Therefore I thank Members. Whilst they did not labour, they raised some important issues.

The draft amendment to the scheme will enable people who were victims of a crime of violence between March 1969 and June 1988 to submit an application for compensation. It will also enable those victims whose applications for compensation were refused under the same-household rule to apply. It will address the Northern Ireland Court of Appeal's decision, and it will bring the Northern Ireland compensation scheme same-household rule into line with the GB scheme.

Members have rightly said that this is a sensitive issue, particularly given that we recognise that, often, people are subject to violent, coercive and sexually exploitative behaviour within their own household. It is, therefore, hugely important that as we recognise that, we also look to see how we can compensate those victims from the past.

Doug Beattie and Kellie Armstrong asked how we will ensure that victims are made aware of their entitlement to make an application. Unfortunately, the Department does not hold Compensation Services records of all claims that were previously denied under the same-household rule. However, we are continuing to work with victims' organisations to provide information to victims that they will be able to submit a fresh application for consideration by Compensation Services. We would welcome the support of MLAs, many of whom will have been approached over the years by people who had been excluded under this rule, were seeking their support and who have lobbied for this change.

There is a time limit of two years from the date that the amendment is passed for same-household applications. However, that time limit may be waived if the Department considers that there is a good reason for the delay, and it is in the interests of justice to do so. Although there is a two-year time limit, it is flexible. We will, therefore, be able to respond if, for any reason, someone with a justifiable case comes forward later.

I hope that the draft amendment will make a difference to victims who have previously and up until now felt ignored, and I am pleased that it brings the Assembly into line with good human rights practice.

I commend the draft amendment to the scheme for approval by the Assembly. Thank you.

Question put and agreed to. Resolved:

That the draft Northern Ireland Criminal Injuries Compensation (Amendment 2020) Scheme (2009) be approved.

Christopher Stalford (DUP, Belfast South)

The next item on the Order Paper is a legislative consent motion (LCM) for the Birmingham Commonwealth Games Bill.

Naomi Long (Alliance, Belfast East)

I beg to move:

That this Assembly agrees to the extension to Northern Ireland of a number of provisions within the Birmingham Commonwealth Games Bill relating to the creation of a new offence that prohibits the unauthorised sale or resale of games tickets.

Christopher Stalford (DUP, Belfast South)

The Business Committee has agreed that there should be no time limit for the debate.

Naomi Long (Alliance, Belfast East)

The purpose of the Bill is to provide a number of temporary operational measures required to support the delivery of the Birmingham Commonwealth Games in 2022. A number of the provisions contained in the Bill extend only to England and Wales. However, others extend to the whole of the UK. The provisions that extend to Northern Ireland relate to the creation of a new offence that prohibits the unauthorised sale or resale of games tickets.

The Bill was originally introduced to Parliament in autumn 2019, but fell prior to the general election. It was subsequently reintroduced in January 2020. The Bill has completed its passage through the House of Lords, and is due to have its Report Stage and Third Reading in the House of Commons in the coming weeks. At the outset, I can reassure you that members of the public will legitimately be able to sell spare tickets. This legislation is aimed at those seeking to obtain financial gain. Members may recall that similar provisions were introduced for the London Olympic Games in 2012 and for the Glasgow Commonwealth Games in 2014.

A person found guilty of this offence in Northern Ireland would be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding £50,000. In Northern Ireland, the fines on summary conviction, which are triable in a Magistrates' Court, do not generally exceed £5,000. In this case, the level of fine is set as a deterrent, with the intention of preventing criminal activity such as money laundering. The offence carries the same penalty in Scotland. In England and Wales, the offence will be punishable by an unlimited fine. It is not possible to have unlimited fines on summary conviction in Northern Ireland, so the fine here must be defined.

The Department considered the following points when setting the level of the fine. First, this is a UK-wide offence, and there is a need to maintain alignment between the levels of fine in Scotland and Northern Ireland and, insofar as is possible, with England and Wales. Secondly, given their interest in sport, colleagues in the Department for Communities have agreed the need for parity. Thirdly, the level of fine is commensurate with the changing nature of the online-ticketing market. The Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport has indicated that the expected number of prosecutions under this offence will be very low.

On whether or not this could be brought via the Assembly, Members will appreciate that I am normally of the view that we should bring legislation to the House and take it through the normal procedures here. However, Members will appreciate that we are somewhat out of step with the normal processes. Generally, Executive and Justice Committee approval should have been in place prior to the Bill's being introduced in Parliament at Westminster. In this case, my Department was unable to do so as the Assembly was not sitting at that time. However, permanent secretary agreement in principle was obtained. On the return of the Assembly, officials sought my views, and I subsequently wrote to the Chair of the Justice Committee at the earliest opportunity and sought approval from Executive colleagues. Approval was obtained on 2 March.

The Justice Committee agreed to provisions extending to Northern Ireland at its meeting on 14 May and to the laying of this LCM. I believe that, given the advanced stage of the Bill and the very tight timescales involved, it would not have been practically possible to legislate locally on this matter. Westminster colleagues are keen to have the request considered as soon as possible as the timescales are somewhat challenging. I am keen, therefore, to seek legislative consent today, but I am also keen to hear the views of Members of the Assembly. I look forward to the debate that will follow. Thank you.

Paul Givan (DUP, Lagan Valley)

I am happy to speak on behalf of the Committee for Justice. The Department of Justice wrote to the Committee in March, advising of the proposed LCM for the Birmingham Commonwealth Games Bill. That Bill introduces a number of temporary operational measures to support the delivery of the Commonwealth Games to be held in Birmingham, between 27 July and 7 August 2022.

The Bill will enable the Secretary of State to provide financial assistance to the organising committee, and includes provisions in relation to advertising, trading, transport and ticket touting. The majority of the Bill's provisions apply to England and Wales only, though a number extend to the whole of the United Kingdom and this includes the powers to provide financial assistance and reporting obligations for the organising committee. Although consent is not required for these provisions, due to their incidental nature on matters within the Assembly's competence, consent is, however, required for the creation of a new offence, prohibiting the unauthorised sale or resale of tickets, commonly known as "ticket touting". The Bill also provides for a fine of up to £50,000 for those found guilty of this offence on summary conviction in Northern Ireland. Currently, penalties for summary offences in Northern Ireland do not generally exceed £5,000.

In view of the COVID-19 pandemic, the Committee agreed that the LCM would be considered as a written briefing, in the first instance, and an oral briefing could be considered at a later stage, if it were felt necessary. Papers were, therefore, issued to members on 5 May for our consideration. It was noted at the time that the Department of Justice had engaged with the Department for the Economy and the Department for Communities on the proposed LCM, given their respective roles in enforcement and sporting matters. However, while the Department of Justice confirmed that DFC did not raise any issues, no indication of DFE's views was provided to the Committee. The Committee, therefore, sought clarification of that Department's position from the Department of Justice on 7 May, and the Department of Justice responded on 12 May to advise that the Department for the Economy had confirmed, with the Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport, that it had no difficulty with the enforcement role and had not expressed any concerns with the proposed offences and penalties. The Committee was also advised that neither the Minister for the Economy nor the Minister for Communities had raised any concerns with the proposed LCM at Executive level.

The Committee agreed, at a meeting on 14 May, that it was content with the proposed LCM. The memorandum was subsequently laid by the Department of Justice on 15 May. The Committee was made aware that, in order to meet the Westminster legislative timetable, it would be necessary to schedule the debate for today's proceedings. To facilitate the passage of the LCM and to enable the requirements of the relevant Standing Order to be met, the memorandum was issued to Committee members via correspondence. The majority of members responded to confirm that they were content with the LCM.

While content with the LCM, the Committee requested further information from the Department of Justice on practical enforcement matters, on 20 May, including whether the Department had any role in enforcement, and how a member of the public may legitimately sell a spare ticket. In response, the Department advised that enforcement of provisions that extend to Northern Ireland will be the sole responsibility of the Trading Standards Service in the Department for the Economy. The Committee was also advised that a ticketing strategy is in development, and this is expected to include an authorised resale platform for ticket holders who find that they are no longer able to attend an event.

At its meeting on 28 May, the Committee for Justice formally agreed that it was content with the proposal to extend to Northern Ireland, by way of an LCM, a number of provisions in the Birmingham Commonwealth Games Bill, relating to the creation of a new offence, which prohibits the unauthorised sale or resale of games tickets. I can confirm, as set out in the Committee report, that the Committee for Justice supports the Minister of Justice in seeking the Assembly's endorsement of the legislative consent motion and, therefore, I am happy to endorse the approach that has been taken.

Speaking as an individual member, very briefly, the Minister has outlined the approach that has been taken. That is entirely understandable. I agree with the comments that the Minister has made. Aside from the importance of how we manage the ticketing, I use this opportunity to say what a fantastic opportunity we have in 2022, that the Commonwealth Games will be held just across the water in Birmingham. I know that many of us who are keen sporting enthusiasts and those who will want to go and support our athletes will want to wish them all every success. This is an important piece of logistical preparation work, but at its heart will be a fantastic sporting experience, and I look forward to cheering on people.

I note that, in the Republic of Ireland, elite athletes have been able to start training again. We really need to be facilitating that in Northern Ireland so that our athletes can get back to training. I declare a slight interest, not that I am one of those elite athletes.

[Laughter.]

I have family members who are involved in elite sport. I will leave it at that, but I have made the pitch.

Christopher Stalford (DUP, Belfast South)

The Chair was in danger of veering away from the content of the motion.

Pat Catney (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Lagan Valley)

I thank the Minister for her statement. The LCM supports the creation of an offence that prohibits the unauthorised sale or resale of tickets for the Commonwealth Games that are due to take place in Birmingham in July and August 2022. The offence aims to safeguard the sale of tickets for the games from any money-laundering activity and to keep the tickets affordable. The Bill does not intend to prevent the legitimate resale of tickets. Ticket holders who can no longer attend will be able to pass on their tickets to family or friends, provided that that is not done in the course of business for profit or in a public place.

The Commonwealth Games delivery unit in the Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport has advised that the organising committee's ticketing strategy is in development, with tickets not likely to be sold before summer 2021. It is anticipated that the strategy will include an authorised resale platform for those ticket holders who legitimately can no longer attend. The SDLP believes that it is important that ticket holders from Northern Ireland have an extra layer of protection to allow for the potential breakdown in travel planning. In the event of a flight or ferry crossing being unavailable or cancelled, all ticket holders should be enabled to retain their tickets while attempting to secure alternative travel. In the unfortunate event that travel cannot be secured, swift access to a last-minute authorised resale platform should be easily available, with information on the process to follow, printed clearly on the ticket.

We all hope to see ease of access to travel resume long before 2022, but we now live in a world where it does no harm to attempt to future-proof and mitigate possible disruptions. Like my colleague from Lagan Valley, I wish, on behalf of the SDLP, the organisers and the athletes every success. We will be supporting the LCM today.

John Blair (Alliance, South Antrim)

I thank the Minister for the information that she has brought to the House today and made us aware of. The LCM extends the Birmingham Commonwealth Games Bill to Northern Ireland. The Bill creates a new offence to stop the unauthorised sale or resale of tickets for the Birmingham Commonwealth Games.

On behalf of the Alliance Party, I welcome the Bill, particularly because it includes the opportunity for people who genuinely cannot use their tickets to be able to sell them for face value. That will stop the tickets touts, while taking reasonable steps to protect those who are unable to use their tickets because of illness, a family emergency or another justifiable reason. I am fully aware that the legislation will end the day after the games do. That was the case, I believe, for the Olympic Games in 2012 and the Glasgow Commonwealth Games in 2014. When the Minister responds, hopefully she can tell us a bit more about how the Bill will prevent ticket touts from accessing tickets and also, as was mentioned earlier, give us a bit more information about the level of fine that can be introduced if someone is found guilty of an offence.

Christopher Stalford (DUP, Belfast South)

No other Member has indicated to me or is indicating to me that he or she wishes to speak in the debate.

Naomi Long (Alliance, Belfast East)

I thank Members for considering the motion and for their contributions.

I also want to put on record my thanks to the Justice Committee for its very thorough report and to the Executive for their consideration of the issues at hand at a time when we had many pressing issues to deal with.

A number of Members raised issues. I want, if I may push a little at the door opened by the Chairman, to say that this is a good opportunity for people who are genuinely interested in sport, and in such big-ticket events, to see, and to participate in, it live. It will come as no surprise to people that I am not a participant in sport, but I am often a spectator, and I do very much enjoy watching it. I know what a thrill it can be to see such sporting events take place live and to take part in them. Being part of the London Olympics, for example, was a memorable experience, and I hope that people will take this opportunity. However, tickets are often expensive. Therefore, it is critical that they are kept affordable, as Mr Catney correctly pointed out, by preventing other people from reselling tickets illegally for profit.

It is also important to remember that people who, for very genuine reasons, are unable to use tickets that they get — we know how complex ticketing systems can be — can still exchange or sell them on a not-for-profit basis so that they are not out of pocket and do not lose the money that they paid for the ticket or let the seat go unused. It is important that everyone can avail of tickets and use all the tickets sold.

The significance of the level of fine reflects the increasing value of the market for the secondary selling of tickets. To put that in context, I think that the figure for the secondary ticketing market is about £1 billion a year in the UK. Obviously, that will include some legitimate resellers — those who sell because they cannot attend. Anecdotally, however, we understand that the vast majority of people who put tickets up for sale are professional traders and touts.

To put in context just how valuable this trade can be, and the significant profit that criminals can make from it, it was reported that, in a recent court case in Leeds, two individuals had made about £3·5 million of net profit between them. They were sentenced to a total of six and a half years' imprisonment for it. You can see that, from an organised crime perspective, it can be quite a lucrative market for raising funds. Therefore, Mr Blair is correct that the fines introduced are commensurate with the potential seriousness of the offences committed.

I am pleased with the support that we have had today in the Chamber. It is sensible that these provisions be carried forward in a Westminster Bill. On this occasion, I ask the House to support the motion to ensure that everyone can enjoy the Commonwealth Games in an affordable, and legal, manner.

Resolved:

That this Assembly agrees to the extension to Northern Ireland of a number of provisions within the Birmingham Commonwealth Games Bill relating to the creation of a new offence that prohibits the unauthorised sale or resale of games tickets.

Private Members' Business

Christopher Stalford (DUP, Belfast South)

The next item of business is a motion on support for sheep and beef farms during the COVID-19 pandemic. However, I am mindful that, based on the indicative timings, most Members were expecting this item of business to commence at 2:00 pm. Therefore, in order to allow Members to come into the Chamber, we will take our ease for a few minutes.

The House took its ease from 12.33 pm to 12.38 pm.

Declan McAleer (Sinn Féin, West Tyrone)

I beg to move

That this Assembly notes the important role that sheep and beef farmers play in ensuring a safe and secure supply of food for the population; acknowledges that a significant portion of sheep and beef farmers, such as hill farmers, are situated in areas of natural constraint and severely disadvantaged areas and face considerable challenges in running their farms; recognises that COVID-19 has had a huge impact on the sheep and beef sector, with the closure of restaurants, hotels and the wider food services industry; further recognises that due to low incomes and the minimal support from other COVID-19-related schemes, sheep and beef farmers in areas of natural constraint have been disproportionately impacted by the pandemic; and calls on the Minister of Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs to ensure that equality and fairness underpins the allocation of the £25 million agri-food sector market intervention fund and that sheep and beef farmers from areas of natural constraint receive the support that they need through the distribution of this funding.

Christopher Stalford (DUP, Belfast South)

The Business Committee has agreed to allow up to one hour and 30 minutes for the debate. The proposer of the motion will have 10 minutes in which to propose and 10 minutes in which to make a winding-up speech. All other Members who are called to speak will have five minutes.

Declan McAleer (Sinn Féin, West Tyrone)

I commend the motion. The COVID pandemic has highlighted the importance of the agriculture and food sector in providing food security. COVID has brought a growing awareness of the value of local food producers. The agri-food sector has been negatively impacted by the crisis, and I want to commend the excellent work of our front-line farmers and food producers during the pandemic.

Committee members have received weekly updates on current issues affecting the agri-food sector, and I thank the departmental officials and Committee officials for providing them. Those weekly updates have consistently flagged up that, since the lockdown, the impact on markets and at farm level has been profound. Written correspondence that we received highlighted the fact that financial pressures are increasing rapidly on businesses across the supply chains, for example, through the loss of the food service markets and certain export markets, reduced productivity at processing plants and increases in some input costs, such as animal feed. All of that has converged to create a crisis for the farming and agri-food sector.

Industry has been consistently calling for financial support measures. Some of the measures —

[Interruption.]

Christopher Stalford (DUP, Belfast South)

Sorry, Mr McAleer. Oh, is it your phone? I was about to reprimand somebody else for interrupting you. Members should try to keep their phone away from the microphones. Thank you.

Declan McAleer (Sinn Féin, West Tyrone)

Some Government initiatives have been made available, such as the self-employment income support scheme (SEISS), through which self-employed people can receive a taxable grant worth up to 80% of their average trading profits in previous years, and that is paid by HMRC. However, the self-employment scheme is not enough to support our farmers during the COVID-19 crisis. That is particularly true for our beef and sheep sector farmers, whose average income is around half of the regional average wage at under £12,000 a year. When you apply the 80% and tax it, it is not enough to sustain them through the crisis. For that particular sector, the SEISS will have a negligible impact. It is pivotal that we keep the food supply moving and the food chain operational in the pandemic, and to do that the agriculture sector needs substantial support from us.

It is also of concern that some of the independent reports that we have seen show huge losses sustained by the beef and sheep sector, particularly as a result of rising input costs and the closure of the food service industry, which accounts for 35% to 40% of the beef and sheep red meats. We have seen losses in the region of £240 per head for cattle and £31 per head for sheep. That loss is substantial for small farmers.

The scale of the impact of COVID can be seen in the closure of the marts in March 2020 and the number of cattle being traded under the restrictions. We can look at the trading figures and have information from the animal and public health information system (APHIS). There was a substantial amount of farm-to-farm movement of cattle when the marts were closed: for example, 7,500 in the week beginning 26 April, and 7,000 in the week of 19 April. During those weeks, there was substantial movement of cattle from farm to farm. If we apply the average loss of £238 per head, we see that that is a huge loss to the beef sector, in particular. We are looking at a substantial figure.

According to the Livestock and Meat Commission (LMC), on 29 March, just five cattle were transferred from farms to marts in the North, compared with 7,800 cattle having been traded last year. The closure of the marts during the COVID crisis has had a huge impact on our beef and sheep sector.

Another figure from the LMC shows that, during March 2020, a total of 30,320 cattle were moved from farms to marts or farms, as recorded in APHIS.

Again, if you apply the loss per head, it is a huge loss and again demonstrates the importance of the marts and the role that they play in the meat supply chain. It also demonstrates the scale of the impact. The Minister will be aware, certainly from Sinn Féin's perspective, that, given the scale of the loss and the fact that beef and sheep farmers represent 80% of farms here — they are the very primary producers at the beginning of our food chain — we have made a proposal that £15 million of the £25 million be allocated to the sector, given the impact that it is sustaining and the scale of the production that it provides. That is for that sector, notwithstanding the other sectors that have been impacted.

Sheep meat has also been affected very negatively by the closure of the marts, the restaurants and the food service sector. Incomes in those areas are extremely low, and that is compounded, of course, by the loss of the less-favoured area (LFA)/areas of natural constraint (ANC) payment, which farmers relied on around March to sustain them. We are concerned that the sheep sector has not been referenced for funding in the scheme that the Minister has announced. There is a huge impact on this sector as well, the evidence being a price of £31 per head for sheep. Add in the input costs: we are told by many assessments that fertiliser went up during the pandemic by about £15 per ton and feeds by about £25 per ton. That has all been sustained by the sector; indeed, information from the Department shows that there has been a decline in income. It went down by 26% last year, and the beef and sheep sector is at the lowest ebb of all the sectors and will be able to avail itself of less from the self-employed scheme or any other scheme to deal with the COVID crisis.

A recent research paper looks at agriculture support across the devolved regions. In Wales, for example, an extra £5·5 million was provided to the basic payment scheme. I should point out that, in the January monitoring round, DAERA surrendered £12 million to the Department of Finance that was not spent in the financial year. It is important, as we look towards future financial years, that we try to avoid that situation. We should, for example, look at using money that was not going to be spent to make a bid for something like an ANC scheme. That would compensate the hill and marsh areas where it is more inhospitable and challenging to farm. That is where 10,000 of our beef and sheep producers are. A return of the ANC scheme could help to mitigate the impact of COVID and the other pressures that they face. Before COVID, as I said, farm incomes had dropped significantly — 26% last year — and they have started to plummet again at £240 per head for cattle and £31 for sheep. The lockdown of the restaurants and all has greatly contributed to that.

We are all in this crisis together. I want to make it very clear that supporting the motion does not mean that you are not supporting the other sectors. We are just flagging up this sector —.

Jonathan Buckley (DUP, Upper Bann)

I thank the Member for giving way. He has outlined the wider factors and issues that face sheep and beef farmers across Northern Ireland. Particularly in relation to the money that has been secured by the Minister for COVID response, does the Member accept that it is only fair, reasonable and vital that, albeit that we will not have money to go around all — that has been accepted — in any of the relief schemes across the Departments, we target funding at those who are most particularly affected by the COVID-19 pandemic? I realise that there was an element of impact across all sectors, but it is important that we focus to help farmers who are particularly affected by COVID-19.

Declan McAleer (Sinn Féin, West Tyrone)

I thank the Member for his intervention. It is worthwhile pointing out that all farmers and all sectors have been impacted. We have seen the independent per head evidence of that impact, and we have seen the number of movements that there have been from farm to farm after the collapse of the marts. I accept and we all need to accept that all farmers have been impacted by the rising input costs and the decreasing farmgate prices, particularly due to the COVID crisis.

I want to underline this point: supporting the motion does not negate support for, say, the dairy sector, the horticulture sector or any other sector. Members and the Committee have been lobbied heavily, particularly by the sheep sector and by beef producers in hill areas, that they have not been included in the response.

Folks, we are all in this together. We are not opposed to any other sector; we just want to take the opportunity today to highlight the importance of the beef and sheep sectors to our food production chain at this time in the middle of the COVID pandemic.

Christopher Stalford (DUP, Belfast South)

I thank Members for getting here on time. It was a bit difficult.

The Business Committee has arranged to meet at 1.00 pm. I propose, therefore, by leave of the Assembly, to suspend the sitting until 2.00 pm. The sitting is, by leave, suspended until 2.00 pm, when we will have urgent questions, after which, we will return to the debate.

The debate stood suspended. The sitting was suspended at 12.51 pm.

On resuming (Mr Deputy Speaker [Mr Beggs] in the Chair) —

Questions for Urgent Oral Answer — Justice

Roy Beggs (UUP, East Antrim)

Paul Givan has given notice of a question for urgent oral answer to the Minister of Justice. I remind Members that if they wish to ask a question, they should continue to indicate by rising in their place. The Member who tabled the question will be called automatically for a supplementary question

Paul Givan (DUP, Lagan Valley)

Mr Givan asked the Minister of Justice for her assessment of the police enforcement powers related to the COVID-19 regulations, following the breach of regulation 6 in respect of the mass gathering that took place outside Belfast City Hall on 3 June 2020.

Naomi Long (Alliance, Belfast East)

Before I answer the question, I want to preface my answer by setting out the context in which it has come about. I received very late notice of the question, through no fault of the questioner, who submitted it in good time, but because it was not passed to my officials by TEO last night as would normally be the case. By the time I was made aware of the question, at 12:20 pm today, it had already been accepted by the Speaker.

Under normal circumstances, I would not answer questions on operational matters in relation to policing in the Chamber. I am here as a courtesy to the Chair of the Justice Committee, who asked the question in good faith and in good time and, I believe, has a right to expect some answer, albeit, I would argue, not from me, and to the Assembly, because it would have been discourteous not to come when there was an expectation that an answer would be given. However, I want to put it on the record that no precedent should be taken from the fact that I am answering the question this afternoon.

The Health Protection (Coronavirus, Restrictions) Regulations (Northern Ireland) 2020 were made by the Health Department on 20 March in response to the serious and imminent threat to public health posed by coronavirus. Regulation 6 places restrictions on gatherings in a public place during the emergency period and provides the police with powers to take enforcement action where there has been a breach of the restrictions. Decisions on what enforcement action should be taken are a matter for the police, based on their operational assessment. Anyone who has complaints or concerns about operational policing decisions can have them addressed by contacting the Police Ombudsman for Northern Ireland.

With respect to the powers that are available, no further powers for enforcement have been requested by the PSNI in any exchanges with me. Furthermore, at this point in the coronavirus pandemic when we are relaxing the restrictions on a progressive but cautious basis, as we give people more freedom we will also be delegating to them more responsibility. As I have said before we should not, therefore, rely on enforcement for our future protection.

Paul Givan (DUP, Lagan Valley)

Assistant Chief Constable Alan Todd has already said that regulation 5 is no longer being policed because there are so many exceptions to the rule that they are not enforcing it, unless there is a blatant disregard. Then, a mass gathering was facilitated by the Police Service on 3 June, with follow-up comments that it was proportionate. Any wonder there were, then, further protests on the Saturday in Londonderry and Belfast.

The credibility and integrity of regulations 5 and 6 have now been undermined as a result of the policing of the protests that have taken place and of police inaction. Does the Minister agree that the regulations that we are now asking the police to enforce are undermining the public's confidence in the police's position? Will she feed into the Executive the broad concern that exists that the regulations, by not being enforced and policed, have undermined the police's credibility, leaving the public to take decisions by exercising their own best judgement as the way forward in future?

Naomi Long (Alliance, Belfast East)

I thank the Member for his supplementary question but I do not accept his analysis of the policing of the situation. However, I reiterate that when it comes to issues that are about operational policing it is not for the House to question the Justice Minister. I am not the policing Minister; I am the Justice Minister, and it is not for Members to question me for my assessment of operational matters.

I have stated that, with respect to the powers that are available, no further powers have been requested. I am also not in a position to comment on what Alan Todd has or has not said in the public domain. However, Members can reach their own judgement about that.

I gently remind the Member, however, that many of the exceptions to which ACC Todd refers are those that were requested and, indeed, pre-emptively announced by his own colleague in Lagan Valley. Therefore, it would be fair to say that, having requested that people have more freedom to move, more freedom to travel and more exceptions to the reasons not to, it was always going to become more difficult for the police to enforce those regulations. If the Member chooses to liaise with his Executive colleagues, they will make him well aware that I raised those concerns at that time and that I have continued to raise them since.

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

Does the Minister agree that events and gatherings will arise that a multitude of sides in an argument may not agree with but that the key is this: we cannot expect the police to adopt one approach to a gathering or a funeral or to a procession that we disagree with and then to ignore another funeral, gathering or procession that we might have sympathy with? The key is that the police have to deal with this through a common approach and they have to be fair and transparent in what they are doing. It is not about who gathered — it is about the law being enforced impartially.

Naomi Long (Alliance, Belfast East)

I thank the Member for his point, and I think that it is an important one. It is important that the police are impartial. It is also important that they are seen to be impartial in their enforcement of the law. It is too easy at times to judge whether they acted in a proportionate and impartial manner based on partial information about situations, and I think that there is huge risk for all of us — there is a huge duty, effectively, on all of us to desist from doing that — in doing that because it can undermine the respect for the police.

With respect to how this is taken forward, I also agree that the police should have a consistent approach. They announced that there would be a four-stage approach; the four Es. They would first engage; then they would educate and explain; and they would then encourage. So, they would engage with people who were about to breach the regulations or who were breaching the regulations; they would explain why that was the case; they would then go forward and encourage people to move on; and the fourth E is that they would enforce. The final stage would be enforcement. It would not be the first option, but the final stage in recognition of the fact that these are health regulations and that, therefore, their role is a very delicate and sensitive one.

With respect to consistency, Members should also note that the Northern Ireland Policing Board has initiated a review of policing under the coronavirus regulations, led by its human rights adviser, to ensure that the police can give robust and clear feedback that would be useful should there be any further pandemic or a second wave.

Matthew O'Toole (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast South)

I thank the Minister for answering the question for urgent oral answer. I will ask her two questions, one specific and one broad. Can she shed some light on something that some groups have been concerned about, which is that there appears to have been — I do not know whether she will be able to give any clarification about this — a late change on Friday evening to the enforcement powers of regulation 6(a) in the Health Protection (Coronavirus, Restrictions) (Northern Ireland) Regulations 2020? That seems to have been tabled by the Executive at 5.00 pm to come into force at 11.00 pm. Can she confirm whether that is correct?

I agree with John O'Dowd about the consistency in application and that, with a protest going ahead the next day, that is perhaps not ideal for people having clarity about enforcement. Does she secondly agree that, while again I agree that we should all be following social-distancing rules — that is absolutely clear — it is very important that we have proportionate policing in terms of the fines and penalties that are given and that people are —

Roy Beggs (UUP, East Antrim)

I remind Members that this in an opportunity to ask a question. Minister.

Matthew O'Toole (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast South)

— allowed lawful protest as much as purchasing garden furniture.

Roy Beggs (UUP, East Antrim)

Order. Minister.

Naomi Long (Alliance, Belfast East)

I thank the Member for his question. With respect to the changes to the coronavirus regulations, let me be clear. The coronavirus regulations changes were announced, I think, about 10 to 15 days prior to the changes being laid on that Friday evening. They were a relaxation, so anyone who breached the regulations, as stated, on Friday night, would have breached them by more than had they breached them unamended. It went from a maximum gathering of two, to a maximum gathering of six. No one was disadvantaged by the fact that the regulations were laid.

It took the Health Minister and the Health Department slightly longer in laying the regulations than was anticipated. I think it may have taken around 10 days to lay the regulations to match the announcement that had already been made, but it was clear that that was the direction of travel. Members will appreciate that Ministers are amending legislation in very short time frames, but it needs to be accurate, clear and concise. Therefore, there was a delay while that was being achieved, but there was no disadvantage to those who opted to protest. Their position would have been illegal before and after the regulations were altered.

With respect to the need for proportionate policing, I agree. Policing should be proportionate, transparent and, moreover, be accountable. Anyone who believes that policing on this or any other occasion was none of those things, or not all of those things, has recourse to the Police Ombudsman. That is the route that they should take with their complaint.

John Blair (Alliance, South Antrim)

Does the Minister agree with me that the basis of the question is wrong and that scrutiny and accountability for the operations of the police lie with the Northern Ireland Policing Board, on which Members are well represented and on which some of us are already raising these issues, as is on the public record?

Naomi Long (Alliance, Belfast East)

I thank my colleague for that helpful question. It is, of course, correct that it is the Policing Board first and foremost that should hold the Chief Constable to account for his actions and for the choices that are made in operational policing and other matters. That is the right forum for such questioning to take place: not in the Assembly, where we do not control policing. The structures in policing were very clearly divided between Justice and policing at the time of devolution and I am not going to impinge either on the Chief Constable's independence when it comes to operational issues, or to trample roughshod over the responsibilities of the Policing Board to hold him to account.

Jonathan Buckley (DUP, Upper Bann)

I am sure that the Minister will join me in condemning the attacks on police officers right across the United Kingdom as a result of ongoing protests. In light of the despicable attacks on war memorials and other memorials across the United Kingdom, will the Minister give us an assurance that that type of activity will not be tolerated in Northern Ireland, for if it had not been for their sacrifice, none of us would have the right to protest in this country?

Naomi Long (Alliance, Belfast East)

I have no reservations in condemning any form of violence or lawbreaking in our society.

Dolores Kelly (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Upper Bann)

As a member of the Policing Board, I welcome the Minister's very firm reassurance that it is the Policing Board that holds the Chief Constable to account in his operational decisions, and we will continue to do so. Does the Minister agree that the police are between a rock and a hard place? She has already said that the interpretation of the regulations and the issue of the time delay means that there is a lack of clarity, and the police have made that comment on more than one occasion. Will the Minister provide an update?

About three weeks ago, I asked the First Minister and the deputy First Minister about the issue of the designation of other officers in the public sector regarding enforcement, for example traffic wardens and environmental health officers. The police simply cannot police the health regulations in relation to social distancing etc and do their other work

Naomi Long (Alliance, Belfast East)

I thank the Member for her question. She will be aware that I have raised the issue of further designation of other bodies. I believe that the Society of Local Authority Chief Executives (SOLACE) was consulted and that councils can now enforce these regulations.

It is very clear that, as we move out of this pandemic, those responsible and appropriate to make the judgements about whether or not regulations are being enforced, and indeed whether good practice is being implemented, will fall way beyond the powers and the locus of policing matters. It is hugely important that we encourage those with the right expertise, in whatever field that might be, to be party to the enforcement and encouragement of people to keep within the guidance.

We should not lose sight of the reason for the regulations. It is to protect life; it is not to deprive people of liberty.

Paul Frew (DUP, North Antrim)

Does the Minister agree that draconian legislation that applies to every twist and turn of a person's life, even in their home, is impossible to police? It is impossible for the police to police and enforce that. In her answer to my colleague Mr Paul Givan, was the Minister suggesting to the House that she does not support the lifting of any of the restrictions to date?

Naomi Long (Alliance, Belfast East)

I assure the Member that, if that was what I had wanted to say, I would have said it clearly and unequivocally and no one would have gone out of the Chamber in any doubt that that was the message that I was sending. It is not. What I am saying very clearly is that, with the change in the regulations and with increasing responsibility being delegated to individuals, it is unreasonable to expect, as you rightly stated, that the police could police people's back gardens, living rooms and all their daily activities. We rely largely on people's sense of responsibility and community and respect for their own life, the lives of their families and the lives of those around them. We will do that increasingly, and it is right that we should do so. Again, that is why I have encouraged the Executive to share more information about the very balanced decisions that we often have to take so that people are fully informed not just of what the regulations state and the guidance says but of why we are making the changes. That will mean that, when people reach a dilemma — we cannot prescribe for every situation — they can apply their common sense and good judgement in a way that does not breach the spirit of the regulations and the spirit of the guidance.

Mark Durkan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

Does the Minister concur with me that there certainly seems to be disproportionality and inconsistency in an approach that saw the issuing of 11 fines and community resolution notices in Belfast and 57 in Foyle, where attempts were made and adhered to by the vast majority of those in attendance to ensure social distancing and where masks, gloves and hand sanitiser were provided? Does the Minister share my view that it would not be in the public interest to pursue prosecutions?

Naomi Long (Alliance, Belfast East)

Most of the issues that the Member has raised are not matters on which I am willing to comment. I cannot judge the policing operations in Belfast and Derry. I cannot compare the two. I was present at neither. It would be inappropriate for me to comment on whether the policing was proportionate, because I do not know in detail the actions that they took on the ground on that day, what advice was issued, what guidance was given to organisers or what response they were met with. It would be completely inappropriate for me to comment on what are operational matters.

If the Member has genuine concerns about proportionality, I am sure that his colleague will take it up on his behalf with the Policing Board, or he could refer them to the Police Ombudsman for consideration. However, to be clear, people who do not pay fines break the law. It is incumbent on me, as Justice Minister, to uphold the law. Therefore, I say that those who have been fined have 28 days to appeal the notice and, if they are unsuccessful in their appeal, should pay the fine, because that is the law. I have no scope for flexibility in that regard.

I want to be clear on the wider issue and on whether people used hand sanitiser, masks and social distancing: all of those are supplementary to the regulations as guidance. They are not a replacement for the regulations and do not absolve any of us of our responsibilities to obey the law.

Gordon Dunne (DUP, North Down)

Does the Minister recognise the significant impact on the community of Northern Ireland of being denied the right to assemble at churches and at funerals, which I have raised previously in the House? Does she fully recognise the implications of that? Will she assure us that, in the future, the law will be applied equally to everyone in Northern Ireland?

Naomi Long (Alliance, Belfast East)

I have previously answered the Member with respect to my recognition that not to be able to hold a funeral is a massive sacrifice for any family to make at this time. It is evidence of a sense of public responsibility and a sense of generosity on the part of those who have abided by the regulations.

These are sensitive issues, but there has been criticism on both sides of the argument. Some feel that the police have not policed harshly enough; others that they have policed too harshly. Perhaps, somewhere in the middle lies the truth.

Roy Beggs (UUP, East Antrim)

I remind Members to rise in their place.

Rachel Woods (Green, North Down)

I thank the Minister for coming here today. I agree with other Members about consistency of approach but the question is about protests held last week and regulation 6. Notwithstanding that, would the Minister agree that we must respond to the cause of campaigners and do everything that we can to address systemic racism in our society?

Naomi Long (Alliance, Belfast East)

I concur completely. I fully understand the strength of feeling that exists about what happened to George Floyd. It has been a powerful catalyst in reminding us all not just of our responsibilities internationally but, I would hope, of our responsibilities personally and individually when it comes to combating racism, both individual acts of racism and the wider and more systemic racism that exists in our society. It is important that people not only protest but take positive action to address those issues.

I am somebody to whom civil liberty matters a lot. I believe that people's right to protest is a fundamental part of living in a democratic society and that the right to peaceful protest is one that we should not give up easily. In the current circumstances, however, it is not appropriate for large numbers of people to gather. There are many ways that we can raise our voices in solidarity with the BAME community in Northern Ireland. I hope, going forward, that we will not only raise our voices but put our shoulder to the wheel and make a real difference.

Jim Allister (Traditional Unionist Voice, North Antrim)

On the issue of proportionality, given that a headline demand of the Black Lives Matter movement is the de-funding of police, was it proportionate for the Minister to re-profile her Twitter page to extol Black Lives Matter, given that she has responsibility for funding the police? Likewise the Chief Constable, who used the hashtag.

Is she concerned that a sector of this community, namely the innocent victims, suffered great hurt from the spin-off of the events of the past weekend, when the Assembly Commission, in a duplicitous move, decided to light this Building for Black Lives Matter but refused to light this Building for innocent victims of terrorism? Does she share the concern for the hurt that that causes?

Naomi Long (Alliance, Belfast East)

It is unfortunate that, when events of such seriousness and weight take place in other countries and highlight systemic issues that are, perhaps, not our own, we always have to return to trying to make this about ourselves. Perhaps, one of the first things that we could do about institutionalised racism in this place is to have an informed conversation about racism that is not automatically overlaid with our own prejudices around sectarianism. I say that gently to the Member in respect of his question.

With respect to Black Lives Matter, it is not just a movement; it is a slogan, a phrase that, I think, typifies the emotions that all of us feel. To be clear, all lives will not matter until black lives matter. While any of us are not equal, none of us is equal. It should not be an affront to anyone in the Chamber for the Justice Minister to say so.

Gerry Carroll (People Before Profit Alliance, Belfast West)

I am deeply concerned about the PSNI's actions at the Black Lives Matter protests in Belfast and Derry on Saturday. People were fined, intimidated and threatened with prosecution for attending a socially distanced and peaceful anti-racism protest. While groups like Amnesty International were speaking out against police actions —.

Roy Beggs (UUP, East Antrim)

May we have a question?

Gerry Carroll (People Before Profit Alliance, Belfast West)

I appreciate that other Members had a bit of leeway.

Roy Beggs (UUP, East Antrim)

May we have a question, please?

Gerry Carroll (People Before Profit Alliance, Belfast West)

The Minister, only hours after the protest, stated that the PSNI response was proportionate. I wonder how the Minister can stand over that, given that, as she has indicated, she was not at any of the demonstrations. Did she speak to any BME groups? Did she even examine the police evidence on the day? My main question is whether —

Roy Beggs (UUP, East Antrim)

There are a number of questions there already.

Gerry Carroll (People Before Profit Alliance, Belfast West)

— it is fair to treat —

Roy Beggs (UUP, East Antrim)

Members have to learn that this is an opportunity —.

Gerry Carroll (People Before Profit Alliance, Belfast West)

— BME protesters differently.

Roy Beggs (UUP, East Antrim)

Order. Members have to learn that this is an opportunity to ask the Minister a question. You have already asked a number of questions.

Naomi Long (Alliance, Belfast East)

I think that what I said at the time was that I believed that, overall, the police had behaved in a proportionate way in enforcing the regulation. I have at no time said that individual decisions were proportionate, nor would it be right for me to do so. As I said to other Members in the Chamber who raised specific issues and concerns, the way to raise those is through the Police Ombudsman. That is not to diminish your concerns, but it is not appropriate for me to be held to account for operational matters for the Chief Constable. He is not accountable to me for operational matters. I neither give him direction nor seek to do so. There is a clear divide here, unlike in the United States, between policing and politics. I happen to believe that that is important and that it needs to be sustained by going through the correct channels when we have complaints and want accountability in policing. I hope that you will feed your concerns directly into the review of policing under the coronavirus regulations that is being undertaken by the Policing Board. It is important that everyone's experiences of this are heard, including those of the black and minority ethnic communities in Northern Ireland.

The direct answer to your question is, "Yes". I did talk to black and minority ethnic people, including some who were at that protest. I understand that they were passionate about the issue. I understand that they wanted to make their voice heard. At any normal time, I would have been with them, but these are not normal times.

Linda Dillon (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

I thank the Minister for coming before the House, although the more appropriate place for operational matters is the Policing Board, as she has outlined. In the Assembly and in the Chamber, we need to focus on the fact that the accountability mechanism for the PSNI is the Policing Board, and that is where it must be held to account, not through the Justice Minister in the Chamber or Assembly. Those accountability mechanisms are helpful —

Roy Beggs (UUP, East Antrim)

Has the Member a question?

Linda Dillon (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

— and she has outlined why.

Naomi Long (Alliance, Belfast East)

The Member is, of course, correct that there are important structures that need to be respected. I also respect the fact that many people have made sacrifices, many of them voluntarily, by cancelling huge events that are important to them and by delaying protests and other things that they wished to hold. We know, for example, that the Pride organisers will not go ahead with their event in the current circumstance; the Orange Order has taken a very progressive stance in cancelling the large parades on 12 July; the St Patrick's Day events did not go ahead; and Easter Sunday commemorations in the republican community did not go ahead. Everyone has made a contribution. We need to focus on this: the vast majority of people in Northern Ireland are abiding by the regulations and are doing so not out of fear of police action but because of the desire to defeat a virus that puts our health service under pressure and has the ability to rob them and their family of their lives. I commend them for what they do in voluntarily complying with the regulations.

Questions for Urgent Oral Answer — Economy

Roy Beggs (UUP, East Antrim)

John O'Dowd has given notice of a question for urgent oral answer to the Minister for the Economy. Again, I remind Members to rise in their place to indicate that they wish to ask a supplementary question. Mr O'Dowd will be able automatically to ask a supplementary question at the start. All other Members should rise in their place.

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

Mr O'Dowd asked the Minister for the Economy what action her Department plans to take to help avoid the loss of 500 jobs at Thompson Aero Seating in Banbridge and Portadown.

Diane Dodds (DUP, Upper Bann)

I thank the Member for a very important question at this very difficult time. First of all, our thoughts are with those in Thompson Aero Seating who face an uncertain future. I was in touch with the company again today, and I understand that conversations with the unions will progress this afternoon. These are very difficult times.

The COVID-19 pandemic has had an immediate and unprecedented impact on the global aerospace industry; airlines and airports across the world have been severely impacted. The COVID-19 crisis has resulted in a number of airlines cancelling aircraft contracts, and aircraft manufacturers Airbus and Boeing have reduced their build rates by 40%. Those are quite staggering figures in a very short period of time.

Unfortunately, those global conditions have resulted in Thompson Aero Seating having to reduce headcount. Invest NI has maintained regular contact with the company since February 2020 on the challenges that resulted from the COVID-19 pandemic. These job losses are deeply regrettable, and our thoughts remain with the workers who will lose their source of income.

Invest NI will work with the local council and the Department for Communities to establish redundancy clinics in conjunction with the company, and my Careers Service will provide support as appropriate. Our focus going forward remains on securing the long-term success of the business, and Invest NI are fully engaged with Thompson Aero Seating on a number of projects.

Generally, I am in touch with other aerospace companies. Indeed, this morning, I was talking to some of those companies, which are a very important part of the supply chain for our larger companies in Northern Ireland. These are very difficult and uncertain times for those companies.

This issue is very local for us, but there is a wider global and national context. I have weekly conversations with the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (BEIS) and the Business Secretary to highlight the importance of the aerospace sector, locally and nationally, and the risks to the sector. Nationally, I think that it is acknowledged that that is a red flag issue and that the risks are very great to the sector. I will continue to ask for support at a national level, as well as working with companies on a local level. Thank you.

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

I thank the Minister for her answer. Although I have to express disappointment because the question asks:

"what actions her Department plans to take to help avoid the loss of 500 jobs at Thompson Aero Seating",

and I do not see any actions in her answer. The council will give careers advice and other advice. The trade union discussions are about 90-day statutory redundancy. What is the Department for the Economy doing? At the start of the crisis, we talked about ripping up the economic rule book, and it needs to be ripped up, not only to save these jobs but other jobs.

I hope that the Minister is engaging with the Chancellor about extending the furlough scheme because these jobs can be saved. If these jobs can be saved over the next number of months, there is a chance of more contracts for this factory. However, the fact of the matter is that the furlough scheme deadline is 10 June, which is tomorrow. If that can be extended, we can help save the 500 jobs —

Roy Beggs (UUP, East Antrim)

Question.

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

— for when the economy returns. Will the Minister speak to the Chancellor about extending the furlough scheme to help save those 500 jobs?

Diane Dodds (DUP, Upper Bann)

I thank the Member for his question. I understand the urgency and the passion.

I speak to and have fairly regular meetings with the other devolved Administrations and the Chancellor and the Business Secretary. We have already raised the issue of the furlough scheme. In fact, this morning, I raised the issue of the furlough scheme again with Thompson. The issue really surrounds the fact that the furlough scheme, as it is currently constituted, will be closed to new applications from 10 June. If there were to be an opportunity to save those jobs in that way, it would mean that amendments would have to be made to the scheme at a national level by the Chancellor. Of course, that request has gone to the Chancellor. I hope that he and the Business Secretary will respond positively. However, we must acknowledge the difficulties around that.

This morning, I spoke to the company about the longer term. Invest NI is engaging with it because we want to see it remain and the workforce maintained. We want to try to win as many jobs back for that industry as we possibly can. While the production line and order book are secure in the very immediate short term, there will, then, come a period for many such companies in the medium term, during the period when no new contracts or tenders are being sought, when life becomes increasingly difficult. That is why Invest NI is working with the company on its new R&D projects. That is why we want to see those projects brought to fruition; because that will stabilise the company in the long term and ensure that there is aerospace seating production build and capacity in Banbridge and Portadown.

Jonathan Buckley (DUP, Upper Bann)

With all politics being local, I am absolutely devastated about those job losses; up to 500 at a company that employs 1,300 people across my constituency. The Minister has outlined her ambition to write to the Chancellor. Furlough is essential to try to save those jobs. Does she agree that it is a gross irony to hear Mr O'Dowd criticise her and sympathise with those employees, given that, in the midst of the COVID-19 crisis, he, alongside his party leader Michelle O'Neill, called for major companies like Thompson and others to close their doors, knowing the pressures that existed because of orders that needed to be met?

Diane Dodds (DUP, Upper Bann)

I thank the Member for his question. I will, of course, continue to be in touch with the Chancellor and the Business Secretary in London. Those are very important issues.

On the second part of his question, I pay tribute to those businesses that kept going, in the face of very challenging circumstances, right throughout the pandemic. Thompson Aero Seating was one of those companies in Portadown, along with Ulster Carpets, that kept going and are busy trying to fulfil their order books and stabilise the company to ensure that there is a future and jobs to support families in the local area. I will continue to support those companies and do what I can, both with the national Government and locally, to ensure that there is a future for the aerospace industry in Northern Ireland.

Dolores Kelly (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Upper Bann)

As another Member who shares the Minister's constituency, I, too, am devastated by the job losses. There is no doubt that they will not be the last that we hear about, given the recession into which we are facing. There are two strands to the issue. Obviously, there are the 500 potential job losses, and, then, sustaining jobs for the future. With regard to Invest NI's work with the company, will there be a skills audit and ongoing discussions with neighbouring manufacturing industries in the constituency and more broadly in order to match workers with available jobs? Where there is urgent retraining need, will measures be put in place quickly and will there be flexibility of approach by Invest NI and the Minister in responding to whatever opportunities may arise?

Diane Dodds (DUP, Upper Bann)

I thank the Member for her question. She raises a very important issue. Let me just tell the House that the unemployment figures for April, which included the new additions to the register in that month, completely wiped out six years of very hard work to reduce unemployment in Northern Ireland. That is a measure of the crisis that has been caused by COVID-19 and the impact that it will have on jobs and families in Northern Ireland. People on all sides of the House will be sympathetic to that and will understand how deeply impacted communities and families will be by that figure. That is part of where we are at and part of the ongoing crisis.

Invest NI is working with Thompson Aero Seating on its recovery plan, which it has called Project Phoenix, and that includes some R&D development on new seating products that the company can bring forward for the airline industry. There will be a recovery in aerospace in Northern Ireland because the skills that we have are absolutely fantastic, but the timing of that will depend on the global environment and on the new orders that are placed by the bigger companies. These are difficult times; I have not tried to sugar-coat that. We will work with companies in the best way that we can.

You raise another really important issue. We now need to look at how we can match skills with other companies and how we can help people to retrain and upskill. This morning, I had a conversation with all six of the principals from the further education colleges throughout Northern Ireland, and that is one of the issues that I want us to get grips with so that we are trying to match people with skills, trying to upskill people and are offering retraining throughout our working life and not just to the younger elements of our society, important as that is. We can all be challenged and we can all retrain and upskill at different times, and that is part of our work in progress.

Doug Beattie (UUP, Upper Bann)

I thank the Member for asking the question, which is really important to us in our constituency. I thank the Minister for her answers so far. It is all well and good talking about 500 possible job losses, but what on earth did we do about the 350 job losses at the same company two months ago, when non-contract workers and agency workers were dismissed? Nothing was done to support them. Did the Department not see this coming, Minister, when that happened?

Diane Dodds (DUP, Upper Bann)

Thank you for your question. You are quite right when you say that this has come in two tranches. The first tranche was the redundancies in the early part of this year, which were largely agency workers.

Yes, my Department has been working with the aerospace sector and, in the next number of weeks, the work that we have been doing will become increasingly clear. We recognise that the global pandemic, the shutdown of air travel and the difficulties in people moving around globally has resulted in very difficult trading conditions for the aerospace sector. We will continue to work with the sector as a whole because we want to see the sector stabilised and we want it to be in a position where it can grow in Northern Ireland once again. As I said to my colleague, who is also from Upper Bann, we want to maintain the skills and build the skills base so that we do not lose those people for when we recover, and we will recover.

Andrew Muir (Alliance, North Down)

I thank Mr O'Dowd for asking the question for urgent oral answer; it is very important. As Mrs Kelly said, this is probably — well, not probably, it is actually — not the last that we will hear of job losses and job-loss announcements that will come down the road.

People and workers are not looking for sympathy but for hope. They are looking for a clear, robust recovery strategy on how we will get through this and how we will safeguard jobs and livelihoods. When will we get that clear, robust recovery strategy? Thus far, I have not seen that, and that is what people are looking for.

Diane Dodds (DUP, Upper Bann)

I thank the Member for his comments. Of course, since the very start of the pandemic, we have been working on measures to try to contain and mitigate the impact of COVID-19. We have done that in a number of ways, and Members throughout the House will have been in touch with businesses that have been supported by the measures that we have brought in.

The best opportunity for recovery will come from letting business get on with doing business and starting to open the economy in a safe and sustained way to allow businesses in Northern Ireland, which are run by people with entrepreneurial skills who know how to create jobs that sustain families in our communities, to get on with doing what they do best. That is the pitch that I have been making to the Executive for some time.

I am glad that we have had some progress on that. I am glad that the retail sector is largely going to open up this week. I want to see people using common sense, practising social distancing and being sensible about what they do when they are out and about. Our retail sector can sustain that; we have seen our small shops operating throughout the pandemic with success and safety. So, the plan is to open up the economy and get on with where we are going and working.

I plan to bring forward some new ideas on parts of the economy that we will always support and other parts of the economy in which we will be able to grow our skills base and provide more and better jobs. I am talking about our skills in cybersecurity. Even in the depths of our pandemic experience, we welcomed a new company from the United States bringing 65 new jobs in cybersecurity. There are specific areas where our expertise and our work with our universities will help us to grow the economy in a sustained and successful way. I am also looking at the area of clean energy, where I see a lot of innovation. Over the next number of weeks, we will be bringing forward some ideas on all those things that can help, not just to support the sectors that we rely on that are our bedrock but to grow in other sectors as well.

Gordon Dunne (DUP, North Down)

Does the Minister recognise the impact that such job losses could have on the supply chain — subcontractors and other suppliers — and on the Northern Ireland aircraft support industry in general?

Diane Dodds (DUP, Upper Bann)

I absolutely do. Just this morning, I was talking to a company from the Member's constituency on that issue. Northern Ireland has not only some very successful large aerospace companies, but a supply chain with many smaller companies that feed into the sector. There is danger for them too in the global crisis that the sector faces. I will shortly be talking to Invest NI on how we support the small suppliers that feed into the larger chain. That is really important in sustaining the economy, keeping skills and keeping people in jobs.

Liz Kimmins (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

As others have said, it is very sad to hear of job losses like this, and we will hear of many more. That brings me to my question, which, in the same vein, is about sole traders and how many of them will face similar challenges. Is the Minister considering providing financial support for sole traders? Many of them are still waiting on an update because they have been excluded from the supports that have been available to date.

Diane Dodds (DUP, Upper Bann)

I thank the Member for her question. We have had the grants schemes that have been out in the public domain. On the question of sole traders, it is rather difficult to define when you come down to looking at particular sections and subsections of that, and many sole traders will be self-employed people who can refer to the self-employed scheme. I will continue to look at where we can provide further help for people and businesses in our community that have not received help so far. However, I know that the Member will have talked to her colleague the Minister of Finance and will be aware of the budgetary constraints around that, so it will be dependent on how we are able and how the Minister is able to identify the money that is available and, then, we can go ahead and look at other types of supports.

Justin McNulty (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Newry and Armagh)

I thank the Minister for coming here today and thank the Member for tabling the question. Whilst Portadown is not in my constituency, there are obvious links with Newry and Armagh, with the people and families affected, as well as the supply chain companies. We are in difficult times, and, unfortunately, there may be many more painful announcements to come in the months ahead, and we need to adopt a strategic approach to deal with the uncertainty and with the economic challenges that we face.

Given the economic uncertainty created by the COVID-19 pandemic, some employers are hesitant about availing themselves of the additional months announced by the Chancellor for the furlough scheme. Can the Minister give clarity and reassure those companies that are unsure about availing themselves of the additional months furlough support that they will not be punished and will not be pursued to repay the additional payments, whatever the outcome for their business at this time of huge uncertainty?

Diane Dodds (DUP, Upper Bann)

I thank the Member for his question but remind him that the issue of these national schemes and how they are administered or how firms relate to them is a matter for Her Majesty's Treasury and not for the Northern Ireland Assembly. However, the Member raises important points in general about the furlough scheme. I am significantly worried. I thought at the start that the furlough scheme was not flexible enough so that companies that required specific skills could not have those skills on a particular set of days in the week without getting support for the other days, so I worried that it was not flexible, but some flexibility has been introduced to it.

Where I see the greatest difficulty at the moment with the furlough scheme is the fact that many companies, particularly small businesses in hospitality, retail and that kind of sector, have had no income for the past three months and are very worried about the contributions that they will be required to make to the furlough scheme at a later stage. That is a significant worry for us. That I why I say genuinely that, for all of us, opening our economy, letting business do business, helping business to thrive and families to have support in the labour market is the most important thing that we can do, and I hope that people respond responsibly and with everyone's safety in mind.

I also think that there is a case to be made to the Chancellor around furlough for a longer tail of support for some industries, and aerospace and possibly tourism and hospitality are two of those areas where that kind of longer tail of support might be required just to get us through the next six to nine months.

Paul Frew (DUP, North Antrim)

Given that a disproportionate number of my constituents have been affected by Thompson, who had previously lost their jobs in Wrightbus, it proves that the manufacturing industry is, indeed, a regional industry. Will the Minister provide assurance to the House that manufacturing will be supported? Thompson and Wrightbus are innovative companies, with Wrightbus having the hydrogen bus innovation hub, and Thompson, with its cutting-edge technology. Will there be support to allow businesses to retract when they have to but to increase in size when they can?

Diane Dodds (DUP, Upper Bann)

I thank the Member for his question. Of course, we should be there to support businesses not just when they are there and doing well but in the tougher times. Business thrives when it can reinvent itself and when it can produce new research and development to produce new products. Thompson is a good example of that as a company, as is Wrightbus. I met representatives from Wrightbus, last week, to discuss their ideas around their hydrogen project and how we might take that forward as part of our clean, green energy supply for the future.

Matthew O'Toole (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast South)

Thank you to the Minister for coming, and thanks to the Member who tabled the question. My sympathy, thoughts and solidarity are with the hundreds of Thompson workers who are uncertain about their future, and who worked very hard to make it a cutting-edge firm. Unfortunately, we will have many similar announcements in the weeks ahead.

I did not hear certainty from the Minister on when we will get an updated economic strategy from the Executive. Can we have that? Furthermore, what are her thoughts on the fact that foreign direct investment is, unfortunately, not going to be a reliable growth area for Invest NI to be focusing on in the future? We are in a changed world. Will the new economic strategy move us beyond what, I am afraid, has been a focus on foreign direct investment over the past few years, understanding that, in the changed post-COVID world, it is not going to be there in the volume that we would like it to be?

Diane Dodds (DUP, Upper Bann)

I thank the Member for his question. We are trying to achieve balance. We need foreign direct investment, because it provides jobs. It has provided us with jobs in areas of specific expertise. It is, therefore, important that we achieve that balance. However, it is vital, and always will be, that we support our indigenous companies, give them time and space with their research and development and allow our universities to work with them.

I reflect, again, on the cybersecurity company that invested, recently, in Belfast. They told me that one of the reasons for their investment was the fact that our universities and industry work so closely together. I see that combination as a good basis for us to move forward on. In fact, later today, I will be talking to the Minister with responsibility for universities and research in London about a research strategy for the whole of the United Kingdom. I believe that investing in research and development is the way in which we will reinvent business and the economy and help us to be successful into the future.

Jim Allister (Traditional Unionist Voice, North Antrim)

I agree with the Minister on the urgency of reopening our economy. It is a pity that some of those who were so gung-ho about closing it down, with no thought for tomorrow, had not been a bit more far-seeing. One need not be an economist to work out that the aero industry is going to be one of those with the toughest path into the future. With that in mind, and bearing in mind the assistance being given by Invest NI, etc, what scope is there, and how far is it being pursued, to discuss diversification with these firms? I ask that because it is hard to foresee the same volume of demand for aircraft seats in the immediate to medium future. Are there opportunities for diversification that could be explored? If so, are they being explored?

Diane Dodds (DUP, Upper Bann)

I thank the Member for his comments on the economy. I agree with him: we need to let business do business and get on with things in a safe and sustained manner.

Yes, there is scope to look at diversification. It is particularly important when we look at the supply chain. I am always encouraged and, at times, surprised by parts of the supply chain into the aerospace industry, for example, which started off as small companies making agricultural tools. So, yes, reinventing ourselves is something that we have done, something that we will be able to do and, I hope, something that we will be able support in the future.

Roy Beggs (UUP, East Antrim)

That ends the period for questions for urgent oral answer.

Paul Givan (DUP, Lagan Valley)

On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. In the course of the remarks made by the Justice Minister, she challenged the Speaker and the decision-making process for granting questions for urgent oral answer. Is it in order for a Minister to challenge the ruling of a Speaker with comments designed to have a chilling effect on the Speaker and Members, like me, who are democratically mandated to hold to account those Ministers responsible, in this case, for regulations 5 and 6?

Roy Beggs (UUP, East Antrim)

The Member has made his point. I will refer the matter to the Speaker for further consideration, but his point is on the record.

Private Members' Business

Roy Beggs (UUP, East Antrim)

We now return to the motion on support for sheep and beef farmers through the COVID-19 pandemic.

Justin McNulty (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Newry and Armagh)

I welcome the motion and opportunity to highlight the difficulties faced by our sheep and beef farmers in running their farms during the coronavirus pandemic.

Many will not know this, but, as a youngster, I was brought up on a farm. My uncle, who lived across the road from us, had no children so, essentially, we were the farm children. My farming background has given me enormous experience. I grew up milking and calving cows, tending to the beef and dairy herd, taking in the hay, the transition to silage and covering the silage pit. I have very many happy memories of my childhood and youth on the farm, so I completely identify with the demands on farmers.

From my youth, I also remember the langle on sheep. To a large extent, farmers feel they have been langled because they have no support. Thankfully, the practice of putting a langle on two legs of a sheep has now been abandoned, but I am sure farmers feel that they have a langle on four legs because they have been held back by a lack of support. Now, on top of that, we have the COVID-19 pandemic. In 2018, it was estimated that there are 19,800 cattle and sheep farms in the North, which is nearly 80% of all farms. The sector plays a significant role in our economy and supports the livelihoods of many people and families. Even before COVID-19 struck, the agri-food sector on this island was struggling with the uncertain future brought about by Brexit. There remains a lack of clarity about the new rules and regulations that farmers will have to deal with and the supply lines in and out of the EU.

The pandemic has made an already difficult situation potentially catastrophic for farmers and their families. As well as the social restrictions of lockdown that we are dealing with, sheep and beef farmers have businesses to run that cannot be shut down temporarily. Animal welfare and food security measures continue to require constant attention, and the nature of sheep and beef farming means that the overheads associated with running a farm do not stop even in the midst of a global pandemic.

Our farmers have also seen significant sections of their markets close down. While the temporary closure of local livestock marts may have had a short-term effect, the shutting down of hotels and restaurants in the hospitality sector, and the wider food-services industry across Europe, along with the ability of the sector to restore customer confidence and return to trading, are likely to have longer-lasting implications for farmers.

Farmers' ability to continue to operate and provide produce is, of course, vitally important in any crisis, but they also rely on the rest of the food supply chain to continue to function. The support provided to the haulage sector for imports and exports, as well as to the hospitality and retail sectors, is essential for the maintenance and security of that supply chain. However, many of our beef and sheep farmers, such as hill farmers in severely disadvantaged areas (SDA), have had to meet the full cost of continuing in business with the prospect of ever-lower market returns.

The initial Government support schemes, such as the COVID-19 self-employment income support scheme and the coronavirus business interruption loan scheme, were not designed with agricultural businesses in mind. Therefore, the £25 million agriculture agri-food market intervention fund has been welcomed by farmers, and I also welcome it. It is crucially important that support will be, and is, directed to those in the sector who have sustained the heaviest losses. As the motion states, it is essential that fund allocation is underpinned by equality and fairness. The £25 million fund has a lot of ground to cover. Our sheep and beef farmers, particularly in areas of natural constraint (ANC), must receive the support they need through the agri-food sector market intervention fund distribution. I support the motion.

William Irwin (DUP, Newry and Armagh)

At the outset of my contribution, I declare an interest as a partner in a dairy farm.

The motion makes a very valid point, and one I have made repeatedly in the House in the past few months, and that is the importance of our food producers at all times, but especially so in a time of great crisis.

Farmers and farm families have worked tirelessly throughout this crisis to produce food for us all. Having security of food supply, and safety and traceability in that supply, is of the utmost importance and it is what sets our produce apart from other regions across the globe.

Our standards are very high, and people in Northern Ireland enjoy high-quality produce from hard-working farmers across the Province. Excellent welfare standards are the foundation. That is important, and it has been the case throughout this pandemic. Food standards have remained high, and that work stops in no circumstances. Rules still must be applied and adhered to, check and rechecked, and it is all for the safety of the consumer.

It is also clear and true that farmland productivity varies greatly throughout Northern Ireland. That is recognised in many ways by various schemes designed to assist farming in areas where the general activity of farming the land is a greater challenge due to hills, mountains or, indeed, water in low-lying land.

With all that in mind, we have had to deal with a pandemic in Northern Ireland, as have many other countries across the globe. Due to the lockdown, and the need to reduce interaction between people, the purchasing trends and eating habits of consumers have been massively altered. That, in turn, had a tremendously negative impact on the food and hospitality sectors, with hotels, bed and breakfasts, restaurants and cafes all closed. With those closures, the demand for meat and dairy products locally has been significantly diminished.

Consider that, in normal circumstances, a large fast-food operator in Northern Ireland accounted for 12% of beef used in the Province. Take, for instance, the hundreds of cafes across the Province, which all use liquid milk for coffees, desserts etc. It is clear how damaging such a significant drop in demand has been on farm incomes in some sectors across the Province.

In supporting the agricultural sector generally, this issue has been discussed on many occasions within the Committee over the past few weeks. As a Committee member, I am keen to see the maximum level of support provided to our farmers across the sectors, in order to help mitigate some of the economic issues caused by COVID-19.

A number of sectors have been practically unaffected by the coronavirus, but others have been badly affected. It is important that the assistance scheme recognises that. The fact that there has been a variance in the level of impact in different sectors, must be a key part of this debate. No one disagrees that the industry should be supported but, with limited funding available, the assistance already provided and the economic response to COVID-19 running into billions of pounds, we must be pragmatic as to how that can be done.

I welcome the self-employment scheme as an additional support and that it was open to farmers to apply.

Emma Sheerin (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

Will the Member give way?

William Irwin (DUP, Newry and Armagh)

I will.

Emma Sheerin (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

Does the Member agree with me that many farmers missed out on the self-employment scheme because they invested their income back into their farms, for example in buying farm machinery and doing necessary works to the farm, which then meant that they did not have enough profit to avail of the scheme?

Roy Beggs (UUP, East Antrim)

The Member has an extra minute.

William Irwin (DUP, Newry and Armagh)

I thank the Member for her intervention. That is open to interpretation but, yes, there may be some that did that. I know a lot of farmers who availed of the scheme, so I am not sure how many farmers were in that position. I am sure that, where farmers showed small profits, that is quite possible.

The reality of farming in normal times is harsh, as we all know. Therefore, we can understand the pressures now at play, given the pandemic and its associated impacts. The £25 million that has been made available is very welcome, and I thank Minister Edwin Poots and the Executive for their hard work in resourcing the scheme. The way in which the scheme is opened up and accessed will be important to ensuring that producers benefit from it in these difficult circumstances. The scheme's importance will be in ensuring that it recognises the different levels of impact suffered across the sectors. That will be difficult and is no doubt contributing to the delay in the releasing of the assistance. It is important, however, that the scheme recognise the financial losses incurred and reflect that in allocations.

We will, God willing, get through this crisis. On the other side of the pandemic, we will still heavily rely on our agri-food sector. When all the various consumer outlets reopen, demand will once again increase. It is vital, however, that we ensure that producers economically survive the current downturn in demand. This assistance will be of some help in that regard. I urge the Minister to push forward with releasing the funding as soon as is practicably possible.

Rosemary Barton (UUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

I welcome the opportunity to take part in the debate, particularly as the agriculture sector has been offered very limited support through the various COVID-19 pandemic schemes. Businesses in other sectors have received, or are going to receive, lump sums of financial assistance through the business support grant or the hospitality, tourism and retail grant, yet, throughout the whole crisis, the farming community has continued to produce its products and has managed to play its vital role in the food supply chain. That supply has been seamless in a situation in which the livestock marts were closed for a period. Beef and lamb prices tumbled. Milk prices are steadily reducing, and, to add insult to injury, we hear of processors bringing in Polish beef to supply a UK supermarket.

The Minister of Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs' recent significant bid for £105 million from the Department of Finance for agriculture has, I assume, been rejected. A £25 million fund for farmers and the horticulture industry been allocated. That is just 24% of the original bid.

These are stressful times for all businesses, including agriculture businesses. They cannot and must not be the forgotten element of the coronavirus pandemic. They must receive due and reasonable support to ensure that there is a food supply beyond the crisis. Thankfully, in Northern Ireland, the family-based farming enterprises are a very important part of our community, unlike in other parts of the UK, in sections of the Republic of Ireland and Europe, and, indeed, throughout the world, where large factory-farming techniques have been established, which churn out agriculture products without the same consideration for or management of quality and without the same level of protection of the environment.

There has long been support for local hill farmers. For those who farm in what are termed severely disadvantaged areas, which were previously referred to as areas of natural constraint, the less-favoured area (LFA) compensatory allowance was in place. DAERA's own figures highlight the fact that SDA farms are well over £100 an acre worse off in income terms than lowland farms. With the removal of the areas of natural constraint payments, it is estimated that around 10,000 farms have been impacted on, with a very large of percentage of them in my constituency of Fermanagh and South Tyrone. On hill farms, there are very limited options for crops, with grass being the only feasible option, and a wide range of livestock farming therefore takes place.

In considering my support or not for the motion, I note the line:

"to ensure that equality and fairness underpins the allocation of the £25 million agri-food sector market intervention fund and that sheep and beef farmers from areas of natural constraint receive the support that they need through the distribution of this funding."

I seek assurance from the sponsors of the motion that their plan is not just to provide support to these two sectors. I fully appreciate that those two sectors have suffered financially due to COVID-19, but I am also aware that sectors such as dairy farmers have also suffered a significant downturn in their market returns. Their return is probably now below the cost of production. Support should go wherever a need is demonstrated in the agriculture world. The Sinn Féin motion raises concerns about farming in ANC areas, but the payment to farmers in those areas was ended when a consultation in 2016 on the future of the ANC scheme was carried out. That consultation was ordered on the watch of a Sinn Féin Agriculture Minister and decided on by a DUP Agriculture Minister. I would be interested to know what weight the Executive and, in particular —

Roy Beggs (UUP, East Antrim)

Will the Member draw her remarks to a close?

Rosemary Barton (UUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

— the Finance Minister gave to the Rural Needs Act (Northern Ireland) 2016 when deciding on grants and financial support. Therefore, I hope that the £25 million of support for the agriculture industry —

Roy Beggs (UUP, East Antrim)

The Member's time is up.

Rosemary Barton (UUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

— will be distributed in a fair and equitable manner.

Roy Beggs (UUP, East Antrim)

The Member's time is up.

John Blair (Alliance, South Antrim)

Mr Deputy Speaker, I apologise for not hearing you in the first instance.

Speaking on behalf of Alliance, I am happy to support the motion, which comes, as I understand it, as detail of the COVID-19 agriculture, horticulture and fisheries support is still subject to some fine-tuning and final decision-making in the Department. Not unlike the last Member to speak, Mrs Barton, I will probably refer, in the next few minutes, to the need, perhaps, to look a little wider than the strict confines of the motion. As I say, however, I generally support the motion and understand the rationale behind it. Hopefully, I can clarify where I am coming from as well.

The motion accurately reflects the negative impact of COVID-19 on the sectors listed in it, referring to the devastating blow caused by the abrupt halt to hospitality industry activity. We know also that it had a similar effect on the dairy sector and, in fact, many sectors of our economy. I am not sure whether the Minister has been updated on consideration by the AERA Committee at this stage of the overall COVID-19 financial support package and its potential remit. However, I am aware of the variety of responses to the Committee's request for feedback. That feedback demonstrates that the range of those in need might be greater than has been hitherto recognised.

The Minister may recall that, when he came to the Committee on 22 May to inform us of the funding, I asked about building in flexibilities for review as the issue progressed. The Minister's response on that occasion, pointing out that it was a finite resource, might not have been exactly the answer that I wanted at that time, but it was, of course, understandable, given the priority of getting the fund moving.

The motion gives us an opportunity for further consideration so that a wider range of those in need in our agriculture sector might be helped. For example, a pillar of funding could be retained for emerging need, or a contingency could be built in for similar purposes. Perhaps the Minister could reflect on the prospect for such flexibility.

Harry Harvey (DUP, Strangford)

As has already been acknowledged, COVID-19 continues to have a serious impact on our agri-food sector. Farming is a volatile industry at the best of times, and COVID-19 has brought additional challenges for local producers that were unimaginable at the start of 2020.

The motion refers to the challenges faced by those farming in areas of natural constraint during the COVID-19 crisis and calls on the Minister to ensure that equality and fairness underpin the allocation of the agri-food sector market intervention fund. Unfortunately, the impact of COVID-19 has been felt across the farming sector, regardless of farm location. It is therefore vital that, in the interests of equality and fairness, we do not deem farmers ineligible for support due to land location.

The £25 million intervention fund represents the most generous allocation made to the agriculture sector by any UK or EU Administration. It reflects the importance placed on the sector locally. The Minister was instrumental in lobbying Executive colleagues to ensure that a bespoke funding package was established, and I join the Ulster Farmers' Union and others in expressing my thanks to him on behalf of the farmers in my constituency.

There is no doubt that the challenges faced in farming are deep and complex. The closure of the food services sector, which accounts for 40% of beef sales, and the challenges faced in the procurement of inputs have affected the beef industry particularly. The implementation of new protocols regarding social distancing has also had an impact across the sector. I have been contacted by numerous sheep farmers in my constituency about the viability of their business in the weeks ahead, with lamb prices having remained low and likely to be volatile for some time to come. Concern has been expressed to me that, in the weeks ahead, there will be further pressure on prices as a large number of lambs become available for slaughter. There is also the additional vulnerability of sheep farmers given their reliance on the ROI market, with 45% of lamb flock being slaughtered in the Republic of Ireland.

The Department has focused its energy on the beef and dairy industries, given the immediate impacts of COVID-19 on them. However, as the situation evolves, others, such as sheep farmers, may require similar support. I ask the Department to bear that in mind. It is important that the intervention fund maintains flexibility in scope and reach to allow for that. It is essential that individual farm businesses can benefit from the intervention fund and that it focuses on meeting first the needs of the worst impacted, regardless of sector or locality. If we want to ensure that the fund is distributed as fairly and as equally as possible, it must be flexible in providing financial assistance to our farm businesses across Northern Ireland. Their viability is crucial to our wider economic recovery post COVID.

Emma Sheerin (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

As I have spoken about at length in the Chamber before, I have a particular interest in the sector, coming from a farming family. Just last week, my colleague Declan McAleer and I joined Sinn Féin TDs Claire Kerrane and Matt Carthy, from Roscommon and Monaghan respectively, in a Facebook Live session focusing on rural issues. We were inundated with questions from rural dwellers the length and breadth of the country, and, although the accents changed, the issues were the same. We heard from farmers who were worried about Brexit, people who asked what provisions would be made for beef and lamb producers in the wake of COVID-19 and poultry farmers who were concerned about avian flu. Those producers are united in their acknowledgement of government intervention in their livelihoods.

The statistics for the North reflect the dominance of agriculture in the rural economy here. There are nearly 25,000 farms in the North of Ireland supporting over 48,000 jobs. Agriculture here has an annual turnover of £4·5 billion and makes up 1·7% of the North's gross value added compared with just 0·5% across the UK as a whole. The industry accounts for 2·5% of employment in the North, more than double the UK-wide level of 1·1%. The North of Ireland is more reliant on agriculture and the agri-food industry than any other area in the UK. Within those statistics, we see that 90% of farms derive two thirds or more of their total standard output from grazing livestock, including 10% that are classified as dairy farms and 79% that are cattle and sheep farms. Approximately 20,000 farmers are classified as cattle and sheep producers. The 2018 figures show that they represented more than 25% of the gross output of farms. We also know that income has decreased substantially in less-favoured areas for hill farmers.

I want to reflect on a statement that my dad told me about at the weekend. It was reportedly quoted by a neighbour he had grown up with who had had to come home from America to look after the family farm even though his heart was not really in it. He said that at that time, which was years ago, "Farming is a curious practice. One can work for 12 months consecutively, show a considerable loss and still possess the will to continue". For me, that about sums it up. These people produce something that none of us could live without: food, the energy to live. Yet, rising costs and falling prices mean that farm income at the end of the year is non-existent, while the other sectors that support the farmer, such as the machinery agents, the feed producers and those selling the fuel, continue to turn a profit, and rightly so. The farmer should also see an income following his or her hard work.

Most hill, sheep and beef farmers did not avail themselves of the British Government's self-employed business interruption scheme, because, without subsidy, they barely break even each year, and 80% of nothing is still nothing. The UFU has highlighted the fact that, in the first three weeks of March, prime lamb deadweight price was £4·80 a kilo and that it dropped immediately to £4·15 a kilo, once the lockdown was announced. Of course, lockdown happened just as many farmers were in the middle of lambing or calving, something for which working from home is not an option.

The challenges posed by the COVID-19 pandemic and Brexit have put unprecedented pressure on the agri-food sector. It is impossible to expect the sector or, indeed, any other organisation to deal with both challenges simultaneously. Recently, we saw the passing of the British Agriculture Bill, when the Tory Government rejected amendments to the Bill that would have ensured that food imported internationally had to meet the standards that farmers in the North are expected to maintain. The current context of COVID-19 has highlighted the importance of local food production and food security here at home, so the impending exit from the EU and what that means for food importation is a constant worry for local farmers and should be a worry for all of us.

Greater support for small farms has more environmental benefits than supporting large, intensive farming practices, particularly in the hills, where land management and biodiversity are important.

In a recent presentation to the Agriculture Committee here, the LMC highlighted the fact that the beef and sheep meat processing sector employs over 5,000 people in the North. In 2017, its annual turnover was in excess of £1·3 billion. Those figures highlight the importance of our farming industry as part of our wider economy and reiterate the need for support to keep farms viable. We need to see help being delivered fairly and equitably, so that everyone has the means to continue as we make our way out of the pandemic. In response to earlier comments, I say that it is Sinn Féin's view that no one be excluded, and we want to see everyone included.

Declan McAleer (Sinn Féin, West Tyrone)

Will the Member give way?

Emma Sheerin (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

I will.

Declan McAleer (Sinn Féin, West Tyrone)

Does the Member agree that, following on from Mrs Barton's comments, support for the motion does not mean that you do not support other sectors in the agri-food sector?

Roy Beggs (UUP, East Antrim)

The Member has an extra minute.

Emma Sheerin (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

Yes. That is exactly my point. We do not want to see anyone excluded, but we want to make sure that everyone is included, particularly those in the sheep and beef sector who have not been mentioned.

Colin McGrath (Social Democratic and Labour Party, South Down)

I welcome the debate and the opportunity to speak briefly to support the beef and sheep sector in the North and in rural communities such as mine in South Down.

The motion refers to the difficulty that hill farmers face, as their farms are often located in areas of natural constraint. I know of many farmers in the Mournes who face difficult conditions, with restrictions on their farming practices due to the additional tourism and natural beauty-related conditions. That makes their work more challenging and, indeed, more expensive.

The pandemic has seen a major impact on the supply chain for farmers and their product. Restaurants and cafes are closed, as are many takeaways, and opening hours are reduced, which means that the demand for their product is vastly reduced. That has caused major issues for the sector, and many face unbelievable hardship.

As mentioned, nearly 20,000 are involved in the sector, and they definitely need support and assistance. I welcome the help offered by the Minister thus far, but, of course, this is the long game and could continue for the next year or so. The difficulty with much of the help and support that has been offered so far is that it is short-term to get people through the worst of the pandemic. Obviously, the issues could be with us for much longer, so we need to see how we can help the sector in the months and up to a year ahead and beyond that. Farmers will face problems that could stretch well into next year and beyond. Of course, the sector is in major difficulty because of COVID, but then we could have the twin impact of Brexit added to that, which could create much uncertainty and difficulty for those in the sector, in another sense for a further short term, and give them more problems.

Cumulatively, these are massive problems for the sector, which does need assistance.

Additional support for the sector is needed. I ask the Minister to detail any approaches that he has made to the Finance Minister for additional funding, or indeed whether the Finance Minister has made any offers of additional funding, to see whether we can help the sector. I would be worried if no consideration had been given to additional funding, given that the motion comes from the party that holds the purse strings. I hope that there have been some of those conversations in the background. Otherwise, the motion will just be building up the hopes and expectations of the sector. If there is no finance to come in behind it, that will be quite unforgivable. I also ask the Minister to detail how the funding referred to in the motion will be distributed — I think it has been mentioned before — to see whether there is a possibility for payments to be weighted by the difficulties that individual farms face because of the constraints upon them.

In conclusion, the motion refers to the valuable work that beef and sheep farmers do in the agriculture sector and the wider agri-food sector in the North. Of course, I welcome and endorse that. I see day and daily in my constituency of South Down the hard work that takes place, but also the real hardship that is out there. These are unprecedented times, and I look forward to the help and assistance that will be given to the sector and to assistance in the long term.