Northern Ireland Assembly, 16 June 2020

348 contributions from 53 members. The official report.

Speaker's Business

Roy Beggs (UUP, East Antrim)

The Speaker has received notification from the First Minister and the deputy First Minister that Deirdre Hargey has resigned the office of Minister for Communities, effective from 14 June 2020. The Speaker has also been informed by the nominating officer for Sinn Féin that Ms Carál Ní Chuilín has been nominated as Minister for Communities. Ms Ní Chuilín accepted the nomination and affirmed the pledge of office in the presence of the Speaker, who participated remotely, and the Clerk/Chief Executive on Monday 15 June 2020. Yesterday, the Speaker also received notification of the resignation of Ms Ní Chuilín as Chairperson of the Procedures Committee with immediate effect. The Speaker is satisfied that the requirements of the relevant Standing Order have been met.

I would like to take this opportunity to wish our colleague Ms Deirdre Hargey a speedy recovery and, indeed, to wish the same for our Principal Deputy Speaker, Christopher Stalford, who is presently not well and is receiving medical support.

The late Mr Billy Bell

Roy Beggs (UUP, East Antrim)

Members will have been saddened to learn of the passing of Mr Billy Bell, a former Assembly Member for Lagan Valley. Before he joined the Assembly, Billy had already given significant public service. He was elected to the constitutional convention in 1975 and to the Assembly in 1982 and was also a long-serving member of Belfast City Council and, then, Lisburn Borough Council. He served as Lord Mayor of Belfast and Mayor of Lisburn. He also served on the boards of a number of public bodies, including the Northern Ireland Housing Executive. It was that wealth of experience that left him particularly well-placed to serve as Chair of the Public Accounts Committee in the first term of the new Assembly.

The Speaker has asked me to record that he was a member, alongside Billy, of Belfast City Council from 1983 and, then, in the Assembly. He recalls that, in both places, Billy was a man who could always be open in telling you where he stood, but was always courteous and with a focus on being constructive.

I served with Billy as a member of the Ulster Unionist Party Assembly Group from 1998 and had the privilege of calling him my friend and colleague. Billy was very friendly and affable; he always had time for a chat. I view his nature as having played a significant contribution to the re-establishment of the Public Accounts Committee, which he led. It drew a cross-party group of members together to act, not in party interest but public interest. He established that principle, once again, in Northern Ireland so that there would be scrutiny of public expenditure and to ensure that members would act together in the interests of the public. We have to thank Billy for the re-establishment of that Committee and the way in which it worked.

On behalf of the Assembly, I express condolences to Billy's wife, Leona, and his children, grandchildren and great-grandchildren. I invite Members to make their contributions.

Robbie Butler (UUP, Lagan Valley)

It is an honour to pay my respects, even briefly, and the respects of the Ulster Unionist Party and the Assembly to the late William Bradshaw Bell, or Billy Bell as he was affectionately known and called. Billy, sadly, left us on 9 June 2020. He will be forever missed by his wife, Leona; his children Julie-Anne, Leona, Willie and Kathryn; his grandchildren Stuart, Charlotte, Rebecca, Anna, Leona, Debbie, Stephen and Amy; and great-grandchildren Ava and Kealan.

Billy was readily recognisable to me, and people like me, as a proud champion of Lisburn and Lagan Valley, but he was born in Belfast, in 1935. He attended Fane Street Primary School, which, I learned only over the past few days, my dad attended, albeit in a different decade. Billy's first foray into politics was not in Lisburn; it was, as the Deputy Speaker said, in Belfast City Council. There, he quickly established a reputation for being a politician of great character — one who wanted to do business on behalf of the entire community. Perhaps some of that was down to Billy's previous work in public relations, a field in which he ran a company, Billy Bell Promotions. I do not think that any of us will give him too much credit for the thought that went into the name, but, Billy, we are eternally grateful for your contribution to politics.

As the Deputy Speaker outlined, Billy has, perhaps singularly, the accolade of being Northern Ireland's first mayor of two cities, albeit Lisburn developed city status latterly. He was Mayor of Belfast in 1979 and Mayor of Lisburn in 2003.

Billy had the honour of representing the people of Lagan Valley in the Assembly, as do I. I have often heard his name mentioned by constituents, always in the same manner. He was one of those people who was held in high esteem by friend and foe alike. Although he was a proud unionist to the core, Billy wanted to make politics work for all the communities of Northern Ireland. He wanted to make this a better, peaceful and more prosperous place for future generations. Throughout the decades, Billy made friends more readily than he made enemies. The word I have heard spoken, more than others, to describe Billy is "gentleman". He will be fondly remembered not only by fellow unionists but by people across the House and across Northern Ireland.

Billy's political career spread across some 30 years, which is no mean feat. Moreover, I do not think that anyone will disagree that navigating Northern Ireland politics from the mid-'70s, through the '80s, '90s and into the new millennium was an easy task by any stretch of the imagination.

In recent months, we have seen the passing of a number of former Members, including Lagan Valley's Ivan Davis and Seamus Close, and, more recently, our friend and colleague John Dallat. In remembering them, we can see that the class of 1998 was a special bunch of politicians. Whilst the media may have focused on the party leaders, leading up to and beyond the signing of the Good Friday Agreement, I, for one, am sure that the foundations and relationships that were laid by Billy over previous years in council and, more laterally, in the Assembly paved the way for the peace that was delivered that year.

As was said to me, recently, by the Speaker, Billy Bell was a gentleman of the highest order. I will go one step further and say that without the Billy Bells of this world, politics in Northern Ireland would be a poorer place. Thank you.

Roy Beggs (UUP, East Antrim)

I omitted to advise Members that we have 30 minutes for this discussion and that Members have about three minutes each for their contribution.

Paul Givan (DUP, Lagan Valley)

Deputy Speaker, I join you in wishing Deirdre Hargey a speedy recovery and, of course, my colleague Christopher Stalford likewise.

In his comments about Billy Bell, my colleague from Lagan Valley Robbie Butler has articulated very well the kind of man that he was. I met him when I was 15 years of age, walking round this Building. Being the very youthful and zealous character that I was then, as a member of the DUP in my youth and with Billy Bell as an Ulster Unionist, I tried to provoke him. Billy and Ivan took a question session from our school, but you could not get Billy to rise. He would not take the bait. Ivan, on the other hand, did, but Billy just would not take the bait, such was the kind of man that he was. He was a man of integrity and a great man of character, and that phrase "a true gentleman" is one that I have heard many people speak to describe the way that he interacted with people. Long after he retried from politics, Billy kept in touch. He visited people who were not well, people who he had built up that relationship with. People who I have spoken to have spoken fondly of him.

I often pay tribute to those who served in the 1970s and the 1980s, particularly as councillors, at a time when it was certainly not attractive to be a councillor. It was not financially rewarding at all to be a councillor, and you were the subject, of course, of a lot of targeting and so on. Billy served on Belfast council, known as the bear pit of councils at the time, and he was able to be the mayor of that city. Of course, he was the mayor of the greatest city, Lisburn, later in his career. He represented the Dunmurry Cross ward, which has moved between Lisburn and Belfast council areas. Billy carried off the role as first citizen of Lisburn in my constituency with distinction. He was recognised for his service to the public when Her Majesty the Queen granted him the OBE.

I want to pay my respects to Billy's family. I know his daughter Julie-Ann well through her work with young people in Lisburn. I send my sincere condolences to his wife, Leona, his children, his grandchildren, his great-grandchildren and his friends here in the Ulster Unionist Party.

Gerry Kelly (Sinn Féin, Belfast North)

I add my voice to the good wishes to Deirdre Hargey and Christopher Stalford, and congratulations to Carál Ní Chuilín on coming back as a Minister, again.

Somebody mentioned 1998, and I was elected at the same time as Billy Bell. I always remember him with a big mop of white hair. I am there now with the white hair, but I do not think that there are too many who are now left in the Assembly who were elected in 1998. I think that the numbers are dwindling. Robbie Butler has said a lot about him, as has Paul. Without going through his history, his history goes well before 1998. He became a political rep in 1975, so he served for a long time and, of course, became mayor of both Belfast and Lisburn. He retired in 2007, but I do not think that he really retired. I am not sure that politicians are able to retire. I notice from some of your remarks, Robbie, in the papers that he was your mentor and mentor to a number of people. There is always a place for that.

Personally and from the party, I send condolences to his wife, his son, his daughters, his grandchildren and his great-grandchildren. I think that you went through the list earlier, a LeasCheann Comhairle, and it shows how fulfilled a life he had. I am glad for him that he got a chance for a fairly long retirement.

He was a nice man. I suppose the best way to say it is that, clearly, we disagreed politically, but, in his disagreement, I never remember him being disagreeable. That is not an easy place to have through 30 years of being a politician. My condolences to the family. I think that that is the measure of the man.

Pat Catney (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Lagan Valley)

To Leona, Billy's wife, to his children, to my Ulster Unionist colleagues, to the DUP and to all in the House, I say that we will miss Billy's contribution. He laid the foundation stone for where we are in Lisburn.

I am very sorry to hear about the passing of our colleague and friend, and my mentor, Billy Bell. I knew him when I was a publican but not very well. I first came to know Billy back in 1995 when he supported me and my family through a horrific ordeal, one that, sadly, happened to too many families in Northern Ireland. Such ordeals are hopefully now consigned to the history books, but it taught me the importance of community.

It was late at night. My wife and children were sleeping. I was about to doze when I heard a large explosion. I remember seeing flashing and flickering lights outside the windows. There had been five petrol bombs thrown at our home: three onto the roof, one at the back door and one at the front door. It took the fire brigade around half an hour to get the fire under control. I thought for sure that we would leave the house, but, next morning, first to my door was my local MLA Billy Bell. I am not sure whether he was an MLA then. I think that he was, but Billy, from the Ulster Unionist Party, was the first politician to my house, offering help and support and trying to help me in any way in which he could to ensure that I stayed and was not forced out. All of the Churches in the area — all of them — sent messages of support. The whole community rallied to support me.

That was the start of my friendship with Billy Bell. I saw him most Tuesdays, when he came into town to go to the market, and our friendship grew. He was always happy to offer advice when I myself became an MLA. I know that many of you here knew Billy, but some did not. Hopefully, you do not remember the ordeals that many of us in Northern Ireland had to endure, but I can tell you that he was a good man and a good friend. When I think of Billy, even though our friendship started because of an act aimed at tearing our community apart, I will always remember how he reached out and rallied the local community to help make me and family feel included and safe again. He was an inspiration and a true gentleman.

I pass on to his wife and family my condolences and those of all my SDLP colleagues. I also wish both Deirdre and the Principal Deputy Speaker a speedy recovery, and I wish the new Minister every success in her new role.

Kellie Armstrong (Alliance, Strangford)

On behalf of the Alliance Party, I pass on our condolences to Mr Bell's family and to all his Ulster Unionist colleagues. I did not know him, but I wish that I had, hearing the wonderful words that are being spoken about him today.

I acknowledge the fact that he was of the new Assembly back in 1998. Changing times. We are here today on the shoulders of those people, who took a courageous step at a time that came after a couple of decades that were not so nice for this place. I know from all the tributes that have been paid that Mr Bell was the first person to be mayor of both Lisburn and Belfast.

Not too many people who leave political life are thought of as being a gentleman and an inspiration and recognised for the positions that they held and the service that they gave. To all our friends here in the Ulster Unionist Party, I say that I am really sorry for your loss. Unfortunately, so many of our friends from that new Assembly are leaving us. I think in particular of Lagan Valley, which has lost so many.

Jim Allister (Traditional Unionist Voice, North Antrim)

My memories of Billy Bell go back quite a long time, though over the succeeding years they were quite sporadic. However, the one abiding characteristic that always struck me about Billy Bell was how affable an individual he was, and that betokened the character of the man. The strength of character, empathy and humanity of the man is quite clear from Pat Catney's tribute. To lose people of that character is a considerable loss.

I very much want to associate myself with the remarks that have been made about Billy Bell, and to express my condolences to his wife, children, grandchildren and his great-grandchildren, and to his party, which has lost something of a father figure, particularly in the Lagan valley area.

Roy Beggs (UUP, East Antrim)

If anyone else wants to make a contribution, please indicate. That concludes tributes to Mr Billy Bell.

Assembly Business

Roy Beggs (UUP, East Antrim)

The first item of business on the Order Paper is a motion about Committee membership. As with other similar motions, this will be treated as a business motion, and there will be no debate.

Resolved:

That Mr Jim Allister be appointed as a member of the Audit Committee. — [Ms Armstrong.]

Executive Committee Business

Roy Beggs (UUP, East Antrim)

The next item of business on the Order Paper is the Consideration Stage of the Housing (Amendment) Bill. I call the Minister for Communities, Ms Carál Ní Chuilín, to move the Bill.

Moved. — [Ms Ní Chuilín (The Minister for Communities).]

Roy Beggs (UUP, East Antrim)

Members will have a copy of the Marshalled List of amendments detailing the order for consideration. The amendments have been grouped for debate in the provisional grouping of amendments selected list. There is a single group of amendments, amendment Nos 1 to 3, which deal with right-to-buy schemes, and we will debate the amendments in turn. I remind Members intending to speak that during the debate on the single group they should address all the amendments on which they wish to comment. They will have that one opportunity.

Once the group debate is completed, the other amendments in the group will be moved formally as we go through the Bill, and the Question on each will be put without further debate. The Questions on stand part will be taken at the appropriate points in the Bill. If that is clear, we shall proceed.

Clauses 1 to 6 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 7 (Abolition of right-to-buy scheme)

Roy Beggs (UUP, East Antrim)

We now come to the single group of amendments for debate. With amendment No 1, it will be convenient to debate amendments Nos 2 and 3. Members should note that amendment No 3 is consequential to amendment No 1. Therefore, if amendment No 1 is not made, I will not call amendment No 3.

Mark Durkan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

I beg to move amendment No 1. In page 6, line 34, leave out subsection (1) and insert:

‘(1) Article 3 and Article 3A of the Housing (Northern Ireland) Order 1983 are repealed (and, accordingly, the schemes under those Articles cease to have effect); but this is subject to subsection (2).’

The following amendments stood on the Marshalled List:

No 2: In page 6, line 38, leave out “the scheme” and insert:

“a scheme detailed in subsection (1)”. — [Mr Durkan.]

No 3: In the long title, after “associations;” insert “right-to-buy schemes;”. — [Mr Durkan.]

Before we commence the debate, I want to take the opportunity to offer my best wishes, and those of the SDLP, to Deirdre Hargey. We wish her a speedy recovery and hope that she is back behind her desk, in the Department, before too long. We also send get-well wishes to the Principal Deputy Speaker. On the other hand, I want to welcome Minister Ni Chuilín and congratulate her on her appointment. I am sure that she hopes that it is a short one. Having worked with Carál as a Minister in the Executive, I know only too well the attributes that she will bring to this extremely challenging role and I look forward to working with her to deliver for people.

The aim of this Bill is to facilitate the reversal of the Office of National Statistics (ONS) decision in 2016 to reclassify registered housing associations from the private sector to the public sector. Ultimately, the reason that we have to pass this Bill, in Minister Hargey's words, is to protect the supply of new and existing social and affordable homes. Perhaps the most significant change will be an end to the compulsory need for registered housing associations to operate a house sales scheme.

The amendments tabled today in essence seek to extend this change to the Northern Ireland Housing Executive, our largest social housing landlord. Since the inception of the scheme in 1979, the Housing Executive has sold over 120,000 properties; it has 85,000 left. We all know people and families who have availed themselves of this scheme. It has enabled people to enter the homeownership market and many will speak of the pride, empowerment and security that has come from doing so. Nobody would, or could, take issue with the tens of thousands of families who have benefited from the scheme's existence. However, as legislators, we have to ask ourselves some serious questions.

The housing waiting list currently stands at a staggering 38,000 households, with around 20,000 considered to be in housing stress and around 10,000 categorised as being homeless, each and every year. Given the huge detrimental impact of housing stress and homelessness on families and individuals, for example, people living in temporary accommodation, crammed into overcrowded conditions with their extended families, sleeping on sofas and families having to separate, can we, as a society, really afford to reduce our stock of social housing? When we are failing to build anywhere near enough homes to get beyond the tip of the housing crisis iceberg, should we really be selling off in the region of 500 homes a year? Is the right to own your own home not trumped by the basic human right to have a home?

During Second Stage a fortnight ago, much of the debate centred on clause 7. Some Members — Andy Allen from the UUP and Jonathan Buckley from the DUP — indicated their support for the retention of the right-to-buy scheme; that is the policy of their respective parties and I respect that.

However, that means that it is incumbent on the rest of us, because all other parties that spoke on that day expressed either outright opposition to the right-to-buy policy or, in the case of Alliance's Kellie Armstrong, recognised the need to align the right-to-buy policies in housing associations with those in the Housing Executive.

Jim Allister (Traditional Unionist Voice, North Antrim)

Will the Member give way?

Mark Durkan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

Certainly.

Jim Allister (Traditional Unionist Voice, North Antrim)

I struggle to follow the logic of the Member's position. He says that, because we have so many people homeless, which truly is a shame, we cannot afford to sell any housing stock. However, is the reality not that any stock that is sold is occupied by those who have been long-term tenants, who have no notion of giving up their tenancy but are intent on staying in that house? Therefore, whether they occupy the house as an owner-occupier or as a long-term staying tenant, nothing will be freed up in the market for the homeless. Is that not the logical reality?

Mark Durkan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

I appreciate and had anticipated the point that Mr Allister has made, and I will address it in my speech. If I do not do so, he can come back to me when I make my winding-up speech.

Clause 7 creates inequality in access to social housing and homeownership. Tenants of Housing Executive properties will have the opportunity one day to purchase the property — their own home — but the same opportunity will not exist for housing association tenants.

Andy Allen (UUP, Belfast East)

Will the Member give way?

Mark Durkan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

OK.

Andy Allen (UUP, Belfast East)

The Member points out an inequality, but does he accept that the Minister said that she wanted to decouple the two issues and intended to come back to the right-to-buy scheme in the Housing Executive at a later date? Does he also accept that there is a two-year period within the right-to-buy scheme for housing associations? His argument does not stack up.

Mark Durkan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

I thank the Member for his intervention. I am not quite sure what point he makes. I recall the Minister expressing her desire to address the issue. My point is this: why not address it now, when the Bill is in front of us? The clause will also, in the view of Housing Rights, create potential difficulty in administering the social housing allocation system, which may allow some tenants a route to homeownership but not others. That, in turn, could contribute to some would-be tenants turning down reasonable offers of accommodation, which would compound the huge difficulties that we already face in trying to address housing stress.

Those are points that Members must consider, but what we really must consider — I would like to know whether Minister Hargey considered it before tabling the Bill — is the 'Joint Consultation Response Report on Proposals to Seek Reversal of the Reclassification of Registered Housing Associations in Northern Ireland'. Consultation 1, on proposals to reverse the reclassification, ran between December 2016 and February 2017. The level of responses that it generated on the house sales scheme was such that it led the Department to consult further; hence, consultation 2 was specifically on the issue of the house sales scheme, both for housing associations and the Housing Executive, and was carried out from 3 July 2018 to 24 September 2018. Remarkably, however, analysis of the consultation responses was published by the Department for Communities only on Friday past, nearly two years after the completion of that second consultation. The Committee was told nothing about the report.

I am not sure why there was such a delay in the publication of the analysis of the responses, particularly given the importance of the Bill and the importance that the majority in the House attached to it getting accelerated passage through the Assembly. I opposed accelerated passage — do not worry: I will not rehash that whole argument — but how are we, as elected Members of a legislative Assembly, expected to make legislation and shape policy like this? I am loath to land all this at your door, Minister Ní Chuilín, but I am fairly sure that, having heard you speak many times of the importance of transparency, accountability and access to information, you will share my concern and confusion that the consultation analysis has appeared only now, somewhere between the eleventh and twelfth hours, as the legislation it relates to is halfway through the legislative process. In policy-making, that is absolutely appalling. One has to wonder whether, had I and other Members not asked about the about the findings of the consultation, it would ever have seen the light of day. I recommend that Members familiarise themselves with the consultation and its responses. It can now be found on the Department for Communities website, but you will not find it in any information pack related to this debate.

I should point out that, according to the consultation responses, there is overwhelming recognition of the need to end the mandatory house sales scheme in the Housing Executive and registered housing associations, just as my amendment would do. Some Members ask why we should end a scheme that has been so popular. It was the subject of a debate in the House in 2016, when Fra McCann tabled a private Member's motion calling for the immediate suspension of the right to buy. A quick read through Hansard from that debate spells out clearly why. If we needed to do it in 2016, we most definitely need to do it now. In every year since and including 2016, the Housing Executive has sold over 400 homes. That is where we haemorrhage housing stock.

I spoke about the number of households on the social housing waiting list. According to the 'Housing Statistics' bulletin, since 2002, that number has increased by a shocking 11,600 households. In the same period, the Housing Executive house sales scheme accounted for more than 10,000 social properties being taken out of stock. That is Housing Executive properties alone. That is astonishing and is well worth remembering the next time a desperate constituent contacts you for help with housing.

More and more families have to run the gauntlet of the private rental sector. How much would those families love to have a secure home? Now weigh that against the importance of owning a home. Defenders of the right to buy will highlight the opportunity it gives people to own their own home and lament the lack of other affordable housing options. I do not disagree with them and will work with any Minister to ensure that we have more affordable housing options. However, even with the discount, many sadly struggle to afford a mortgage, not to mention the costs that come with it. We are all familiar with the sorry sight of boarded-up former social housing units across our constituencies — bought, lost, repossessed and now lying as empty eyesores in the possession of the banks, while the families that were in them are back to square one, on a housing waiting list with a lot more snakes than ladders.

Jonathan Buckley (DUP, Upper Bann)

I thank the Member for giving way and for outlining my position from the beginning in support of that right-to-buy scheme and of allowing people the fundamental right to get on the housing ladder and, should we say, get off benefit in housing from the state. It is a good method. Does the Member know and does he agree with me that clause 8 outlines the potential for grants to be supported by the Department to allow non-statutory right-to-buy schemes? Therefore, potentially, what he suggests is premature. He has rightly outlined the lack of scrutiny that the Committee has been able to have of the Bill. We have had no representations from the housing sectors to the Committee. It is premature for us to make the amendment that you suggest, because we have to first of all see what grants can be available via clause 8.

Mark Durkan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

I thank the Member for his intervention. I do not think that I have an issue here with prematurity. Had Members listened to my appeal against giving the Bill accelerated passage, we could have had much more time to scrutinise it. I said at the time that it was not my intention or desire to unpick the legislation; it is my desire to improve it. I believe and reiterate that we all need to work together to explore any options that are out there to ensure that there are more affordable homes as well as more social housing units for those who will never, sadly, be able to afford their own home.

Homeownership is not without its pitfalls. There is the liability for repairs and insurances and being at the mercy of banks and interest rates, and, now, owners of former social properties in a number of schemes — I know of at least two in my constituency — are getting hit by huge bills for general maintenance. One man who has been in with me is getting a bill of £4,000 because the stairs on the outside of his apartment block are getting painted. There are vultures out there — we were warned about them by a number of speakers in the previous debate — who are are happy to swoop in and take people's former social homes off their hands. Sometimes, the lure of a quick profit is a bit too much to resist for owner-occupiers, who sell their houses on to those professional private landlords who just rent them out again and line their pockets with housing benefit, costing even more to the public purse.

At Second Stage, Ms Anderson said that the right-to-buy-policy:

"was never really about homeownership on its own. It was an attempt to turn some aspects of social housing into what I would describe as something like the wild west of unbridled capitalism".

She said that she was:

"glad that the Bill will put an end to two policies that threaten the provision of social housing." — [Official Report (Hansard), 1 June 2020, p16, col 2].

The Bill will not do that unless the amendment is made. The policy has been completely scrapped in Scotland and Wales for local authorities and housing associations. The main reason for doing that was that much-needed social housing stock was being lost, with the better stock being sold off. At present, with almost 40,000 households on the waiting list and the inevitable negative impact that social housing new build will have suffered as a consequence of COVID-19, we cannot continue to sell off stock and not replace it. I have already stated that many previous right-to-buy properties have ended up in the private rented sector, which charges much higher rents than the Northern Ireland Housing Executive does. Housing benefit underpins a lot of that. The policy has also caused the fragmentation of settled communities as the private rental sector, by its nature, has much more transient tenants.

I will wrap it up for now but look forward to listening to the rest of the debate. I should also explain that amendment No 2 is virtually a technical extension of amendment No 1 and would extend the two-year transition period to which Mr Allen referred to the Housing Executive, as is already proposed for housing associations. That means that all existing social housing tenants would have two years from the passage of the Bill to commence the purchase of their home, should they desire to so do. It creates equality. It should also serve as a reminder to Members who have reservations about supporting my amendments that the right to buy will not vanish overnight. Amendment No 3 is a consequential amendment that will change the long title of the Bill after Members have all voted in favour of amendment Nos 1 and 2. I implore Members to support the amendments.

Paula Bradley (DUP, Belfast North)

Before I comment on Mr Durkan's amendments, I want to put on record and pass on my best wishes for a speedy recovery to Deirdre Hargey, the Minister, and to my party colleague Christopher Stalford. Of course, I welcome Carál Ní Chuilín back to the role of Minister. I am sure that she is delighted about that. We will miss her in Committee, but we hope that she is back with us in Committee sooner rather than later.

I thank Mr Durkan. Before I came into the Chamber, I said to him, "Mark, please explain your rationale when you open the debate". He certainly did explain it. I agree with a great deal of it. I agree with him about the inequality. When I last spoke in the Chamber on the issue, as Committee Chairperson at that time, I said that it could lead to inequality between those who live in housing association properties and those who live in Housing Executive properties.

The right-to-buy issue was well rehearsed in our last debate. As a girl, I grew up in a housing estate in Mossley, and my parents had the opportunity to buy their own house in the early 1980s, before moving out of Mossley. I was very glad that that opportunity was available for us. Of course, I have regrets about losing the right-to-buy scheme, but I hope that another scheme will be brought forward to enable people to buy their own homes, and the Minister said that the last time she was here.

People do not move into our social housing sector with the attitude, "Here, I can buy my own house"; they move into our social housing sector with the attitude, "I need somewhere to live, and this is where I am going to live", or, "This is where I grew up", or, "This is where I want to live". It is not necessarily, "Oh great, I will move into one of these homes, and, in five years' time, I will be able to buy it at a reduced price". I do not think that that is the attitude of many people. Many move into their homes and discover, after a few years, "OK. I have the ability to buy this. This is great. I can do this". I do not think that because we will have two separate systems in place, we will see a massive increase in people wanting to move into Housing Executive properties. Most Housing Executive properties are older properties, while most housing association properties are newer properties, and people want newer properties.

I absolutely get where Mr Durkan is coming from. I do think that there is an inequality. However, the Housing Executive needs a complete and utter overhaul. We spoke about it during the talks last year, it was spoken about in the agreement when we came back here, and it was spoken about in our Committee. If it was not for COVID-19, we would be dealing with those issues now. We would have time to scrutinise and time to look at the issues. Sadly, however, that has not happened. We are not here to debate accelerated passage for the Bill again, but it needs to happen, and it needs to happen sooner rather than later. We need housing associations to be able to borrow and to build much-needed homes.

I am sure that it will come as no great shock to Mr Durkan to hear that the DUP will not be supporting his amendments. However, I absolutely understand where he is coming from. I have a worry about the inequality, so I ask the Minister to make it more of a priority when she looks at the Housing Executive. We need to do that anyway.

I know that the Minister has deep issues and concerns with the Housing Executive and how we go forward with it. Mr Durkan mentioned the analysis of the responses, and, speaking as a member of the Committee for Communities, it is extremely disappointing that we did not get to see that information. I am sure that Mr Durkan will bring that issue up in the Committee this week, and, hopefully, we will be able to write to ask why that information was not presented to the Committee, and to Members of the House, in considering the Bill.

Sinéad Ennis (Sinn Féin, South Down)

I, too, send my best wishes to Deirdre Hargey and to Christopher Stalford for their speedy return.

I place on record my thanks to the Minister for her fast and decisive action in providing the utmost support for our housing providers and for those struggling to obtain a home through home ownership or social housing. If classified as public bodies, housing associations would lose their ability to borrow financial transactions capital, as all borrowing would have to count as public-sector borrowing. In real terms, that would reduce the number of social homes by approximately 50% each year and would dramatically reduce funding for the co-ownership scheme. I ask Members to consider the impact that that would have on supporting economic recovery in the aftermath of COVID-19. How many families are already struggling to obtain their own home in unfair conditions of overcrowding, with young families still being penalised for the housing crash of more than a decade ago?

The Bill will ensure that housing associations have the financial freedom to access much-needed funding for social housing, new builds, and to continue the co-ownership scheme. Importantly, it will not come from the increasingly pressurised Executive Budget. If this reclassification was implemented, housing association borrowing would be treated as public debt and deducted from the Executive's capital Budget. It is important to understand that the Bill, and its accelerated passage, was supported by all members of the Committee for Communities, with no issues or concerns being raised.

Turning to the amendments, what we have here from Mr Durkan is a doubling down of his bizarre misunderstanding of what the Bill is actually about. I say "bizarre" because he sat in the Committee and did not raise any of these concerns. Despite what he says now, he agreed to the need for accelerated passage. These amendments, which are entirely unrelated to the Bill, would, as he knows, fundamentally change its very nature to the point that ONS would reject it completely out of hand. That tells me that, despite his warm words, he is prepared to lose 50% of the social and affordable housing stock and is prepared to put the extra £3 million per month financial pressure on the Department, and for what? To make a few ill-thought-out political points. I believe wholeheartedly that we need to completely revitalise the Housing Executive. We should have a Housing Executive that is properly governed and fit for purpose and that deals with all the inequalities in housing, and Minister Hargey has agreed to tackle those. Damaging and jeopardising the Bill is not the way to do that.

The Committee for Communities, of which Mr Durkan is a member, and the Executive have given consent for the Bill to proceed by accelerated passage. In his opening comments, Mark mentioned Housing Rights. ONS and Housing Rights are telling us that this needs to get done, so I suggest that he listen to them and that we all listen to them. The amendments risk adding serious delay and therefore would have serious financial implications if they are supported. Therefore, I ask Members to not support them and to allow the necessary passage of the Bill.

Andy Allen (UUP, Belfast East)

The Member who moved the amendments outlined his rationale for tabling them as the haemorrhaging of housing stock from the social rented sector. I do not think that there is a Member in the Chamber who can seriously say that they have not dealt with constituents who are in need of social housing and who have been on the housing waiting list for years on end and that those Members have not been frustrated as they have navigated the housing selection scheme to try to get those constituents a roof over their head.

There has been a systemic failure in government by not delivering enough social and affordable houses, and that is part of the key problem. Mr Allister made a fundamental point. I do not believe that the majority of those individuals who go on to purchase those homes have any intention of moving on from them, so that will not address the issue in the medium to long term. Most of those residents who go on to purchase their home intend to stay there, and their family intends to stay there. They are part of the community, they have been brought up in the community and they are part of the fabric of that community. They have no intention of moving on, and, indeed, that has been articulated to me by a number of individuals who have gone on to purchase their home.

Pat Catney (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Lagan Valley)

Will the Member give way?

Andy Allen (UUP, Belfast East)

Yes.

Pat Catney (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Lagan Valley)

Can the Member tell me why, when I go for a walk where I live, which is not too far away, I can see "for sale" signs on pensioners' bungalows, if what he is saying is the case? They come on the market at some time, and that robs them of the chance to ever go out socially again.

Andy Allen (UUP, Belfast East)

I am not saying that it does not happen. I am saying that, in the majority of cases, those individuals have no intention of moving on. I cannot speak about those particular properties. I do not know them, and I am not familiar with them. Of course it happens, but, in the majority of cases, that is not the intent of the individuals in purchasing those homes.

Of course the right-to-buy scheme is not perfect. It needs to be amended. It could be a much better scheme. We do not support the Member's amendments. We feel that they are unhelpful at this stage. As I pointed out in my intervention, the Minister made very clear to the Committee when she presented to us on 13 May that the intention behind the Bill, which she is bringing forward, is to deal with the ONS reclassification. She has also made very clear that she intends to deal with the wider Housing Executive and, indeed, the Housing Executive right-to-buy scheme at another stage. We have the transition period in the housing associations, and I take on board and accept the Member's and my colleagues' concerns about the inequality that that raises, but I hope that we will see — I see that the Minister is across the way — consideration being given to or legislation on the Housing Executive right-to-buy scheme. My party will give it an absolute fair wind. As the Member for Upper Bann also pointed out, we need more detail. In our Committee packs just last week, we found that the Department had come back to say that there was no additional detail on the voluntary grant scheme, so we need to see more detail. We need to see more detail on what would replace the Housing Executive right-to-buy scheme should we abolish it also. We will not support the amendments.

It was perhaps remiss of me not to put on record at the outset my and my party's best wishes for the Minister, Deirdre Hargey, and the Principal Deputy Speaker, Christopher Stalford, and to welcome the new Minister to her place. I am sure that she will join with me in welcoming Deirdre back when she is fit and ready.

Kellie Armstrong (Alliance, Strangford)

Just as I start off, I reiterate what my colleagues have said and wish former Minister Deirdre Hargey back to full health very soon. We will welcome her back to the Chamber. I welcome Minister Ní Chuilín to the post; we will miss her in Committee, because there is a font of knowledge there. I also acknowledge Christopher Stalford, the Principal Deputy Speaker. Mr Deputy Speaker, I recognise that we are whittling through Speakers rightly at the moment, so I wish you good health for the next wee while.

On this matter, I am unfortunately unable, on behalf of the Alliance Party, to support the amendments today. Like others, I am absolutely sympathetic. I believe that the right-to-buy scheme has haemorrhaged houses out of our housing market, leaving housing stress and the waiting lists in the situation that they are in. If the Member had stood up and said that his amendment was on the back of absolute clarification that he had received from ONS that it would take forward the legislation with his amendment and accept that, then I would have supported it. However, I do not believe that the Office of National Statistics will accept that amendment and take this through, and the result of that will be that social housing will lose money. It will not be able to borrow, it will not be able to build houses, and we will see an end to the co-ownership scheme, because we will not be able to fund that either.

This is a piece of legislation that needs to go through quickly, because we are under pressure. This place was not here for three years, and, as a result, we are left with a situation where a crisis is looming. If we do not sort out the classification or reclassification of social housing, there will be no new builds in social housing. The impact that that will have on our community includes the construction industry and the fact that people will not have houses that they can move into. It is a larger economic issue.

The Minister has said that she will deal with the Housing Executive in the future, and I welcome that completely, because the Housing Executive is sitting in a state at the moment where it is going to face an enormous bill for corporation tax in this financial year, because it cannot buy things to mitigate that cost. What impact will that have? That will have the impact that the Housing Executive may face huge difficulties in doing its own maintenance work. We have to review the Housing Executive, and I will be fighting at that time for a review of the right-to-buy scheme within the Housing Executive. If we are going to have a voluntary scheme, both social housing and the Housing Executive need to be similar so that there is no differential. Under the legislation that is in front of us, the right to buy will continue for two years after it receives Royal Assent. When will that be? It could be a month from now, two months, three months or six months, so there is time to look at the Housing Executive and to consider.

I am very disappointed that the Department did not share all the information with the Committee prior to the Minister's bringing this to the House so that the Committee had time to discuss it. I appreciate that we are going through a speedy resolution on this Bill because of the nature of what is contained within it, but the Committee does have to have its time and its place, and I hope that we will have that when we review the Housing Executive.

Unfortunately, at this stage, I cannot support the amendments. I completely understand the rationale behind them. If the Member had said, "ONS has said, 'Yes, absolutely, bring the Housing Executive into this and we will accept the Bill as it is'", then there would have been no problem, but that is not here. I just do not believe, given the discussions that I have had with people within the Department regarding the ONS, that that is a possibility at this stage. We do this now and then we deal with the Housing Executive, and we can align the two going forward. We need to have a commitment to getting back to building houses and to take away those delays. We need this legislation for housing associations and, depending on how the review of the Housing Executive goes, it may well be brought into this legislation anyway.

Martina Anderson (Sinn Féin, Foyle)

Ba mhaith liom labhairt i bhfabhar an Bhille seo. I want to speak in favour of the Bill but, before doing so, I send my best wishes to Deirdre Hargey and wish her a speedy recovery, and I send best wishes to Christopher Stalford, too.

I speak in favour of the Bill because, as we know, across the island, we are in the midst of a housing crisis. Whether you live in the Bogside or Ballymun, the New Lodge or New Buildings, no child should be brought up believing that they should call a hotel or a hostel home. I think that that is something that, across the Chamber, we all would agree with.

I think back to 2002, when there were over 13,000 in housing stress: 17 years later, there are 26,000 people in housing stress. We know the challenge that is ahead of us. This Bill is about maintaining the support and supply of new homes necessary to help struggling families, along with the most vulnerable, to access housing and have security and dignity. I firmly believe that the constituency that I come from would understand the Bill and why we are taking the measures and maybe giving support to it today. Despite the Member coming from the same constituency as me, I do not think that there would be widespread support for an amendment that could jeopardise the Bill, and that is what we are talking about.

Derry has one of the highest rates of people declared as homeless in the entire North, and it has one of the lowest rates of new plans approved to build additional social housing. In fact, even when we have plans approved, they do not go ahead, for instance because of Tory austerity and the slashing of bodies such as NI Water. I will refer to the Seán Dolan social housing scheme in Creggan, for instance. That scheme is stalled, and among the many reasons wy those social houses are not being built is the fact that we do not have the sewage capacity. I know that that is an issue in other areas.

As has been said, the Bill will address the decision of the Office for National Statistics to classify housing associations as public bodies. That decision, if not addressed, as has been stated by other Members, would put the ability to borrow in jeopardy, as well as impacting on the Executive's capital spend programme, I believe, to the tune of up to £3 million every month or something to that effect. Ensuring the private status of the housing associations allows them to borrow without scoring against public debt. That is a good thing at any time, but it is particularly good as we face all the challenges that the Executive face with COVID-19. Therefore, it is only right that they continue their historical classification as private bodies. That was discussed among the parties in 'New Decade, New Approach', and it finds expression in that.

The Assembly must ensure that there is maximum delivery of social and affordable houses for all citizens. We have to do that as we face into what will be a tough time as and when we come out of this terrible pandemic. One of the ways that we can do that for social and affordable housing is through the successful passage of the Bill. Without this legislation, the reclassification of the registered housing associations by the British Government would deepen the housing crisis, as has been seen said, and could halve the annual number of council houses that could be built in the North. Again, we were dealing with all of that when we were leading into the 'New Decade, New Approach' document. If the reclassification is implemented, the Executive would have to entirely fund the new building programme, potentially reducing the number of new-build starts from 1,850 to 900 — less than half.

We all know why the Bill is so important. In the current housing crisis, with an ever-increasing waiting list, it is just unacceptable for the Member to propose the amendment. He may put in jeopardy all that has been said. I understand that there are approximately 60 housing association houses and 300 Housing Executive homes sold each year. That stock needs to be replenished; those homes need to be replaced. We are all saying the same thing. In one way, it might be understood why the Member has tabled the amendment, but the Office for National Statistics is focusing on housing associations only. We heard Minister Deirdre Hargey tell the Chamber, the last time we debated this, that she intended to bring forward proposals to deal with the Housing Executive. She has already committed to bringing forward those proposals, which, I think, will support tenants and protect the housing stock. Much has already been said about the right-to-buy scheme and how popular it is. There is a need for that housing stock to be replenished, and all of that needs to be discussed when the Minister brings forward her Bill or the proposal for the Housing Executive.

The 'New Decade, New Approach' document puts the focus on building houses in locations where there is objective need. That is crucial, as we all know where the need and the pressure is for social houses. For instance, it is about focusing on areas such as the north-west and north and west Belfast — north-west by north-west.

Jonathan Buckley (DUP, Upper Bann)

I thank the Member for giving way. I accept the point in relation to replenishing the housing stock; indeed, I think it is widely accepted across the House. However, will she acknowledge my bewilderment at the continual criticism of the right to buy in the House, given, first, how popular it is with social housing tenants and, secondly, that the right to buy scheme has enhanced the social fabric of many communities across Northern Ireland? Does she accept those points?

Martina Anderson (Sinn Féin, Foyle)

Without doubt, the right-to-buy scheme has been very popular. You only have to look at the number of people. My mother bought her home under the right to buy scheme, and I live in that home. There are thousands of people across Derry and all our constituencies who have bought their home under the right to buy. The problem is that those homes have not been replaced; the stock has not been replenished. If you cut down a tree, you want to plant 10 more. What need to ensure that the housing stock is capable of addressing the need. That is where we are, and that is why it is important that objective need, as identified in 'New Decade, New Approach', deals with areas where there are pressures. We know where there are pressures on social housing; indeed, Minister, your constituency of North Belfast is one area. As I said, it is north-west by north-west. I acknowledge that there are other areas of need, before other Members intervene.

I am the spokesperson for regional inequalities for Sinn Féin, and I will work with the Department for Communities on advancing social housing in Derry on the basis of what 'New Decade, New Approach' said about objective need. Sinn Féin believes, as do many advocates and, I am sure, many in the House, that adequate housing is a human right, and we will continue to promote that across the island.

The legislation is a good step forward to ensure that the social housing stock is maintained, but it is clear, as I said, that we need to address housing shortages, particularly in areas such as Derry and north Belfast that have suffered persistent and chronic housing inequality. As 'New Decade, New Approach' says — I cannot say it enough — we have to allocate resources on the basis of objective need, wherever that objective need takes us. I will fight for people in the Shankill as much as I will fight for people in the Falls. I will fight for people across the North, wherever the need is.

In many ways, it is shameful that previous Ministers who had a policy of targeting social housing on the basis of need abolished that policy. That was done by not one but two SDLP Ministers and adversely affected the very constituency whose Member is proposing the amendment. In Derry and Belfast —.

Roy Beggs (UUP, East Antrim)

Can I draw the Member back to the Bill, please?

Martina Anderson (Sinn Féin, Foyle)

Yes. Minister Hargey has done a good job. She has worked hard in allocating resources to where they are needed. I very much believe in Minister Ní Chuilín's approach to tackling need and addressing the need for more social housing. I am sure that Minister Hargey will be pleased, as am I and many others, to see that the Bill is being taken forward by Minister Ní Chuilín, because she comes from the same mindset and approach as Minister Hargey.

I wish you well in the time that you spend looking after the Department. I am sure that, like us all, you will be glad to see Deirdre return, but I know she will be delighted that her Department is in safe hands.

Rachel Woods (Green, North Down)

Like other Members, I wish Deirdre Hargey and Mr Stalford speedy recoveries and welcome Carál to the Chamber.

Last time, I spoke in support of the principle of the Bill, appreciating the need for the reclassification of housing associations as private bodies and what that means for the future of social housing in Northern Ireland. Whilst recognising the importance of that, I, like many others, raised concerns, especially about the right-to-buy scheme, that are again being discussed at Consideration Stage through the amendments.

There is still an issue with the potential to create more inequality in access to social housing and homeownership. Many tenants in social homes aspire to homeownership, and the right-to-buy scheme is often their only hope of fulfilling that aspiration. Will that contribute to some tenants consciously turning down a reasonable offer of accommodation where there is no possibility of future homeownership? I await more detail on that.

We welcome the amendments to include the Northern Ireland Housing Executive in the ending of the right-to-buy scheme. The Housing Executive housing sales scheme has accounted for more than 10,000 social properties being taken out of stock since 2002. In its 2018-19 annual report, it stated that it had sold 449 properties through the scheme, which was up from 436 in the previous year. We are losing much more social housing through that sale scheme than that of the housing associations. I would like clarification of the exact number of properties that have been sold by the Housing Executive and the housing associations since the housing scheme started and how many homes were built in that time.

We have consulted on this. Two years ago, a consultation was launched by the Department for Communities, when we had no Assembly sitting. The 'Joint Consultation Response Report on Proposals to Seek Reversal of the Reclassification of Registered Housing Associations' was published a few days ago. There was agreement from respondents on repealing the amendments to the right to buy, with some 18 in favour of ending housing sales schemes for all social tenants. I ask the Minister whether that can be done through the Bill, given the two years' lead-in time for a change in the policy in the Housing Executive. Has there been any advice issued on that?

We need to remove the right-to-buy scheme and build more housing in order to provide housing security and stability. If the opportunity exists through this to amend the right-to-buy scheme in the Housing Executive and put an end to it over the next two years, we should use it.

Gerry Carroll (People Before Profit Alliance, Belfast West)

I wish Minister Hargey and Principal Deputy Speaker Stalford well.

I support the amendment. There seems to be a pattern in the House that Members who table amendments are castigated for daring to do so. I thank Mr Durkan for tabling the amendment.

There is a concern that there has been a concerted strategy to whittle down the Housing Executive. We have heard of attempts to transfer stock. Thankfully, they were defeated through public ballots.

However, there has been a general approach to say that, "public is bad, private knows better and private will better deliver". I will address that as I continue through my comments.

I think that the amendment is important and I support and speak in favour of it. However, it is concerning to see the extent of Bills and legislation coming through the House without the time for proper scrutiny. Members on the Committee have said that and there are still serious questions that have been left unanswered. Only a few weeks ago, we had the situation where we were asked to endorse the Budget Bill when a lot of detail was not there and when a lot of scrutiny was not taking place, never mind details about efficiency savings and cuts. Even today, we are being asked to endorse an LCM, yet the Department of Health is unable to answer fundamental questions despite I, and others on the Committee for Health, twice raising questions about a serious piece of legislation.

Today, in the middle of a health pandemic, we have a scenario in which we are rushing through legislation that will have big ramifications for housing and public services generally across our society. There is nothing wrong with doing things quickly, provided that they are done correctly with information gathered and evidence heard. We have heard from multiple people, today and previously, that that has not been done and that the full extent of it has not been completed. Many people will be asking why the urgency, especially as there is no evidence that the passing of this Bill, with the reprivatisation of housing associations, will lead to the tackling of our housing crisis or lead to the figures that the housing associations have indicated that they may build. That is important to emphasise. I think that there are some fundamental concerns about the nature of the Bill.

As Miss Woods said, the Department consulted in 2018 about the proposed changes, but there were only 30 responses. This is a big piece of legislation and a big Bill with big changes. Only 30 responses does not indicate a wide and deep consultation process in which a large number of people were engaged. There has been an element of a shock-doctrine approach throughout the crisis by rushing through changes and legislation in the hope that scrutiny will come at some magical date in the future, but that point is likely to never materialise.

People are correctly focusing on the coronavirus crisis and tackling it. I think that there is a thought process, perhaps, that this is a good time to push through bad legislation and I believe the main tenets of this Bill are bad. It is worth remembering that the reclassification was initially proposed by the Tories and Sajid Javid. At the very least we should be suspicious of this in terms of the merits and the reasons for the proposals. I am concerned that we are following another reckless Tory path by endorsing this Bill.

As I am people will know, whether they are for or against it, the right-to-buy scheme was designed by Thatcher and it is disappointing that people have bought into it. From my experience of speaking to people about right to buy or successions, they want to see that the house kept as a family home. Therefore, I think that we need to have a conversation that recognises that we need to defend the Housing Executive as a public institution and looks at how we can extend and enhance the right to successions so that homes can be kept in families for a bit longer than they currently are, especially with regard to housing associations.

As I said previously, we oppose the main tenets of the Bill because it seeks to privatise and deregulate housing associations, whilst at the same time maintaining, if not possibly increasing, the public money that they receive. Clauses 1, 3, 4, 5 and 6 restrict the powers of the Department around the disposal of land, the merging of housing associations and with the housing associations merely having to notify the Department of their actions. I have a very serious concern about the lack of scrutiny of what is at the heart of the Bill.

Clause 7, as has been said, abolishes the right-to-buy scheme for housing associations, but the amendment extends that to the Housing Executive and I support that.

I think that the fundamental ideology that public is bad and private is good, is at the heart of this and that needs to be challenged. We need to avoid buying into the free market claptrap which says that they know better and they know best. We saw people, quite rightly, clapping for the NHS throughout the coronavirus crisis, and there is a renewed desire to see public services delivered by public bodies and institutions and not housing associations being privatised.

The housing rights organisation said in relation to the first change, I think it was in 2016, around housing associations gaining public status that:

"they could potentially be subject to a broader range of human rights law in exercising their duties".

Surely, that is a good thing. Obviously, with the reclassification of the housing associations, it will have the opposite effect, potentially raising big human rights concerns. So, at the very least, that should be a warning sign for people. We know the long history of privatisation, with rents being increased, service delivery worsening and the increased possibility of eviction. I do not normally quote PwC, but, in 2011, it stated that the Housing Executive was one of the success stories of the past 40 years and:

"It is rightly regarded nationally and internationally as a leading authority on 'best practice' on both housing management and community building."

We need to strengthen that generally but especially today with this amendment.

I am concerned that we are hearing that there may be measures brought in the future. If they are good, we will look at them and support them if they are what is needed, but for how long have parties needed to strengthen, enhance and protect the Housing Executive? There has been a failure by Executive after Executive.

Throughout this debate today and previous stages of the Bill, nothing has been said about the additional positive benefits of public scrutiny in respect of stock conditions, maintenance repairs, rent controls, maintenance fees and such issues. That is very concerning indeed.

To conclude, public accountability is a good thing. We should seek to enhance and protect it. This Bill does the complete opposite of that. It should not be up to the ONS to determine our housing policy. This House should determine its own housing policy and what is best for the public at large and our constituents.

There is no evidence that this Bill, if passed, will tackle the housing crisis. There is no evidence that the housing association new start targets will be met. They have been failed year on year. The best way to deliver social housing is through enhancing, protecting and allowing the Housing Executive to borrow and build.

Roy Beggs (UUP, East Antrim)

I call the Minister for Communities, Ms Carál Ní Chuilín, to respond to the debate.

Carál Ní Chuilín (Sinn Féin, Belfast North)

I join others in wishing Deirdre Hargey all the best. I do not know what the craic is with Christopher, but I wish him the best as well and I thank people for their generous comments about me stepping in, hopefully, for a very short time.

I will start with the points that Gerry has just made. I want to make it clear that there is absolutely no issue with anybody bringing forward any amendment on any bit of legislation. That is what this place is for. You may agree or disagree with it. People may be hot and heavy in their agreement or disagreement, but that is fundamentally their right. This is a legislative Assembly to bring forward legislation either amended or not amended. So, to that end, I do not recognise what he is saying, and it will not be the case here.

Mark Durkan raised concerns about accelerated passage, but, in fairness to him, I do not think that he voted against it. However, it is his prerogative, as it is with every one of us, to bring forward amendments if we so wish.

I completely accept the points that the Member is making in his amendment that there needs to be a read-across in going through to the Housing Executive because you do not want to cause a gap or inequality. However, that amendment does not meet the criteria for this to go through. That is where we part company. That is basically it.

I want to say on the record that I, too, got the report on Friday. On first look, I thought that it was part of the Assembly materials in preparation for this debate. I then discovered that it was something completely different. I know that the departmental officials are listening. I am going to bring that back because I do not think that it is acceptable, to be quite honest. I know that, if Deirdre Hargey was standing here, she would say the same thing. It is not acceptable. I will get you an explanation of what happened. Even if I do not like it and you do not like it, you will get it; we will be consistent on that.

This is in New Decade, New Approach and accelerated passage is needed. The deadline runs out on 31 March 2021. We are here to get legislative competence and also to stop £3 million a month from the public purse being used. That £3 million a month is equivalent to 45 social houses. I do not know anybody in the House who would be happy with that. Some of us more than others come from a background where we appreciate this. For many of us, our first home or our current home is from a public housing authority or the Housing Executive.

We had debates here and, Mark, you and others will remember — I am going to say Fra McCann and passion in the same breath — Fra McCann's passionate plea around ending the right-to-buy scheme is still our position. This is something that, I think, we all agree on fundamentally but not many people spoke about it. Once those houses, be they housing association or Housing Executive houses, are sold under the right-to-buy scheme, they are never replaced. That is the problem. Andy, you are right that most people who buy their home under the right-to-buy scheme stay there. However, I think that it was Mark who spoke about the antics of some developers who are akin to vultures. They encourage older people to buy their house and give them a couple of pounds. Those older people think that they will pass it on to their children and grandchildren and then, all of a sudden, they are homeless. They are sometimes allowed to stay and then you are paying housing benefit, which is twice the cost to the public purse and then some.

We all agree and have all said that the Housing Executive needs to be addressed in what we do next. Paula Bradley, the Committee Chair, also pointed out that there are concerns around potential inequalities. I will just remind people that Deirdre Hargey said at the Committee and as part of the debate on this that her next route would be to take forward legislation to close the gap for the Housing Executive and take the same phased approach to this scheme so that there is not a sudden shock for people who may want to buy their homes. You need to give people a lead-in period; that is compliant with good practice and guidance.

My other concern with your amendments, Mark — I am only here so you can roll your eyes if you want. I looked at the Bill and, instinctively, I thought that there is potential for legal challenge if your amendments to clause 7 are made. It would go outside the competence of the ONS criteria, and that would hold things back. When people talk about holding back, for me, that is what it looks like. I do not think that anybody wants to hold things back. While Mark's concerns are right and it is right that they are raised, this is the wrong vehicle and the wrong avenue. It is something that we need to bring back.

Kellie Armstrong and other Members pointed out the concern about any potential knock-on. The Housing Executive's exemption should be from paying corporation tax. That was part of the negotiations; we all had concerns about that and raised it. I stand to be corrected but, from memory, it is around £13 million a year; that is quite a lot of money. We talk about the revitalisation or improvement of the Housing Executive, so we will have to look at that.

Reducing the expenditure to the public purse is one thing that we need to look at. That is why the Bill is so important. With £3 million a year and 45 houses a month, look at how many houses you could have at the end. That is the realm that we are talking about.

Rachel Woods raised a question that I also want to know the answer to. I will try to find out exactly how many homes have been sold and how many have been built under the Housing Executive and housing associations. I will go further than that: I will try to find out which areas they have been built in. From memory, I know that they are not always built in areas with the highest demand, and that is the problem.

Andy Allen talked about systemic inequality, as did Martina Anderson and Sinéad Ennis. Everybody did. We are all coming at this with the view that we want to look after constituents. Let us be honest: while they are in housing stress, they are miserable. In my constituency, my neighbours on the New Lodge Road have three generations living under the one roof. It is a problem for people's mental health. Teenagers are growing up with no privacy. It is just horrible. None of us wants that on our watch.

Andy Allen (UUP, Belfast East)

Will the Minister give way?

Carál Ní Chuilín (Sinn Féin, Belfast North)

I will, surely.

Andy Allen (UUP, Belfast East)

Minister, you have undertaken to clarify a number of points for our information. Another area that you could perhaps clarify has to do with the systemic failure of right to buy and how that scheme has been implemented. As I highlighted, it has not been perfect. How much revenue has been generated through the house sales scheme? Secondly, how much of that revenue has been reinvested in new social housing builds?

Carál Ní Chuilín (Sinn Féin, Belfast North)

I will, surely. The concern was not only about how it was reinvested. You may remember that, at some stage, there was discussion about investing in the maintenance programme for Housing Executive homes, because a lot of them are quite old. If you look at the Savills report, which we will deal with at Committee, you see that the bill for that is huge. I will say this to rural colleagues, even though they may think that I have a brass neck as I live on the New Lodge Road: I know that there is more fuel poverty in rural communities at times because houses are older, they are harder to heat and the efficiency is not what it would be with a new housing association house. Those families do not want to live in poverty. None of us wants that.

Mark, it will come as no surprise that I do not support the amendments. However, I absolutely defend your right, and that of anybody else, to table them.

I have no doubt that we will come back to this point. Let me be clear to Gerry, who raised it. I do not think that anybody could describe anyone as supporting a Thatcherite policy in the right to buy and leaving people. I want to be clear. It was probably a political dig, and he has a right to do that, but I think that it is a bit churlish. Also churlish is the lack of knowledge about and experience of the fact that housing association and Housing Executive tenants have the same rights when it comes to allocation: it has to be done on the basis of objective need. That will not go away. That is in law and has to happen. I think that the Member is right to raise it. Those tenants, regardless of whether they are with a housing association or the Housing Executive, need to have the same protections as well. That is steadfast. I want to make that completely clear. If the legislation passes and there is any evidence that that is not the case, I will join him and others in ensuring that whoever is standing in this position is made aware of it and, what is more, does something about it.

For us as an Assembly, would we like to have dealt with this differently? Absolutely. I think that we can all agree on that. Would we like to have had an opportunity to scrutinise more? Absolutely. That was accentuated when we all got the report last week. People were rightly annoyed. We need to deal with that.

I thank everybody for their contributions. I am sure that Christopher and Deirdre will have heard the best wishes, which are genuine, and I wish them both well. I ask Members not to support the amendments that Mark has moved.

Roy Beggs (UUP, East Antrim)

I remind Members that, when they are addressing the House, they should make their remarks through the Chair. The way that the microphones are positioned helps Hansard to pick up all the comments.

Mark Durkan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

[Inaudible]

ask the Minister to repeat that. I want to thank Members for their contributions and I will attempt to address some, if not all, of the issues that have been raised.

The first contribution was from Paula Bradley, the Chair of the Communities Committee. I agree entirely with her about the need to overhaul — I think that that was the word that she used; I might use the word "reinvigorate" — the Northern Ireland Housing Executive. She made the point that, generally, housing association properties are a wee bit swankier than the older Housing Executive stock and are, therefore, more attractive. What she did not mention, however, is the fact that that is reflected in the rents for those properties, which are, sometimes, nearly twice the cost, and which does not make them that attractive after all.

Ms Ennis commenced by extolling the virtues of the Bill. Let me reiterate that I support the Bill. I raised concerns in the Committee, although she said that I did not. I know that it was over the phone; maybe the Member missed it. I explained it again in the last debate and I apologised for it then; maybe she missed it again.

The amendments, in my view — it is just my view; I have not sought legal opinion and I do not know whether anyone else has — would not risk the passage of the Bill. I am not sure how they would do that. So, when the Member accuses me of making ill-thought-out political points, she might want to read over her own contributions and reflect on them.

Andy Allen made an impassioned defence of the right-to-buy scheme. He mentioned the Minister's pledge to bring forward legislation to deal with the Housing Executive and the right to buy, but I have to ask: when? The clock is ticking on this mandate. Will the Member support any such proposals if the Minister brings something forward to address the right-to-buy scheme?

Andy Allen (UUP, Belfast East)

Will the Member give way?

Mark Durkan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

Certainly.

Andy Allen (UUP, Belfast East)

The Member may have noted that towards the end of my remarks, I said that I and my party will give any proposals from the Minister a fair wind in that respect.

Mark Durkan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

OK. Andy also asserted that most families who purchase a social home remain in it. That is borne out by a recently completed piece of Housing Executive research — it is a broad analysis — which demonstrates that of the 120,500 Housing Executive properties that have been sold since 1979, almost half are still owned and occupied by the original purchaser. Just over a quarter were owned by someone other than the original purchaser and just over a quarter were rented privately, the majority by private landlords and a small proportion by housing associations, which have started to buy some back.

Kellie Armstrong seemed to be of the view — I entirely accept her position — that ONS will not accept the amendment. However, I have yet to hear a compelling reason why it would not do so. It is imperative that we pursue that. She said that ONS was concerned about the reclassification or classification of housing associations. The Bill addresses that as it stands and it will still address that, if amended. She said that if the Minister stood up and said that the Department had had it from ONS that it would not jeopardise the Bill, she would have no bother supporting the amendment. I will just remind her that the same Department sat on the consultation on the matter for two years before it saw the light of day.

Martina Anderson spoke for Sinn Féin and said that there was a housing crisis across the island. That is true and it is lamentable. Her party has been extremely vociferous about the issue in the South. I wonder what Eoin Ó Broin would think of Sinn Féin's opposition to my amendments today. She spoke of widespread support for the Bill. I conducted a wee consultation of my own at the weekend — nothing too scientific, just through the power of Facebook — and I got over 50 responses from people in our shared constituency. It was a fairly mixed bag; people saw the merits and the drawbacks of the policy, but all of them lamented the lack of social housing. When I read through the Hansard report of the 2016 debate, when her party called for the immediate suspension of the scheme, I saw that a number of Sinn Féin and DUP Members had waxed lyrical about the 10,000 new social homes that were going to be built in that mandate. As we know, that mandate did not last wild long. Where have those homes gone? How many of that 10,000 have been delivered? Is it half? In the same time, we have lost, maybe, 1,800 homes through the right-to-buy schemes. It has been over 400 homes for each of the past five years, not 300, as the Member said.

It is important that we work with all parties to deliver more social housing, as the Member pledged to do, and we look to all parties to do what is required to ensure that we deliver more social housing. We will need Executive support for resources for Northern Ireland Water to ensure appropriate water and waste infrastructure to enable new builds. When DFC is not building enough houses, it is down to Tory austerity, but when Northern Ireland Water cannot afford to put in infrastructure, it is all Nichola Mallon's fault. That is something that we need to look at as an Executive, and we need to stop this petty point-scoring.

The Member proceeded to make points about party colleagues of mine that bore no relevance to the amendments and little semblance to reality. It was seen from Ms Anderson that attack is still the best form of defence.

I appreciated support and sympathy from the Green Party and People Before Profit. I want to go back to a point, which, I think, Rachel Woods asked: have we anything definitive from ONS? Has the Department even sought an opinion from ONS on the validity or competence of the amendments?

I will also address the point that was made by Mr Allister, and echoed by Andy Allen, that homes sold do not equate to homes lost, because they still house people. They are lost to social housing stock. That would be grand if we had lots of surplus stock, but we do not. Is it not government's primary obligation to provide homes for those most in need? People who are homeless have greater need than those in secure accommodation. If we did not have a huge backlog of unaddressed housing need, this would not be an issue, but we do, and it is.

Minister Ní Chuilín slipped back into the role with ease. It is like riding a bike, Carál. Do you have it in writing that ONS would not accept the amendments? If you do, can we see it? We were reminded that failure to pass the Bill will cost £3 million a month that would be used on new builds. Can we expect that when it passes — I will be supporting its passage — every penny of that money will be ring-fenced for that purpose? I made the point previously, and I make it again, that the cost of us not having government for three years was over £40 million and 700 new social homes for struggling families. I will not, therefore, take lectures from Sinn Féin on me jeopardising budgets. To be fair, that criticism did not come from the Minister, who was measured in her approach and explanation, but from her party colleagues.

I am disappointed: it is obvious that my amendments will not pass. I genuinely thought that this was a great opportunity to ensure full protection of our social housing stock. I reiterate my commitment to work with the Minister to deliver more social housing for the thousands of families and individuals who are in severe housing stress.

Question put, That amendment No 1 be made.

Some Members

Aye.

Some Members

No.

Roy Beggs (UUP, East Antrim)

I think the Noes have it.

Some Members

Aye.

Roy Beggs (UUP, East Antrim)

I think the Noes have it.

Some Members

Aye.

Roy Beggs (UUP, East Antrim)

Clear the Lobbies. The Question will be put again in three minutes. I remind Members that we should continue to uphold social distancing and that Members who have proxy voting arrangements in place should not come into the Chamber.

Before I put the Question again, I remind Members that, if it is possible, it would be preferable if we could avoid a Division.

Question, that amendment No 1 be made, put a second time.

Roy Beggs (UUP, East Antrim)

Before the Assembly divides, I remind Members that, as per Standing Order 112, the Assembly has proxy voting arrangements in place. Members who have authorised another Member to vote on their behalf are not entitled to vote in person and should not enter the Lobbies. It is important that, during any Division, social distancing in the Chamber continues to be observed. In order to facilitate that, I ask Members to do the following: any Members in the Chamber who are not due to vote in person should leave the Chamber until the Division has concluded. Those Members who wish to vote in the Lobbies on the opposite side of the Chamber to which they are sitting should leave the Chamber via the nearest door and enter the relevant Lobby via the Rotunda. Those remaining Members who are sitting closest to the Lobby doors should enter the Lobbies first, and any Member who has voted may then wish to leave the Chamber until the Division has concluded. If a Member needs to vote in both Lobbies, however, he or she should not leave the Chamber.

I remind Members of the need to be patient at all times, to follow the instructions of the Lobby Clerks and to respect the need for social distancing.

The Assembly divided:

Ayes 14; Noes 70

AYES

Ms Bailey, Ms S Bradley, Mr Carroll, Mr Catney, Mr Durkan, Ms Hunter, Mrs D Kelly, Mr McCrossan, Mr McGlone, Mr McGrath, Ms McLaughlin, Mr McNulty, Mr O'Toole, Miss Woods

Tellers for the Ayes: Mr Carroll, Mr Catney

NOES

Dr Aiken, Mr Allen, Mr Allister, Ms Anderson, Dr Archibald, Ms Armstrong, Mrs Barton, Mr Beattie, Mr Blair, Mr Boylan, Mr M Bradley, Ms P Bradley, Ms Bradshaw, Mr K Buchanan, Mr T Buchanan, Mr Buckley, Ms Bunting, Mr Butler, Mrs Cameron, Mr Chambers, Mr Clarke, Mr Dickson, Ms Dillon, Mrs Dodds, Ms Dolan, Mr Dunne, Mr Easton, Ms Ennis, Ms Flynn, Mrs Foster, Mr Frew, Mr Gildernew, Mr Givan, Ms Hargey, Mr Harvey, Mr Hilditch, Mr Humphrey, Mr Irwin, Mr Kearney, Ms C Kelly, Mr G Kelly, Ms Kimmins, Mrs Long, Mr Lynch, Mr Lyons, Mr Lyttle, Mr McAleer, Mr McCann, Mr McGuigan, Mr McHugh, Miss McIlveen, Mr Middleton, Mr Muir, Ms Mullan, Mr Murphy, Mr Nesbitt, Mr Newton, Ms Ní Chuilín, Mr O'Dowd, Mrs O'Neill, Mr Poots, Mr Robinson, Ms Rogan, Mr Sheehan, Ms Sheerin, Mr Stalford, Mr Stewart, Mr Storey, Mr Swann, Mr Weir

Tellers for the Noes: Ms Ennis, Ms Flynn

The following Members’ votes were cast by their notified proxy in this Division: Ms Armstrong voted for Mr Blair, Ms Bradshaw, Mr Dickson, Mrs Long, Mr Lyttle and Mr Muir. Mr K Buchanan voted for Mr M Bradley, Ms P Bradley, Mr T Buchanan, Mr Buckley, Ms Bunting, Mr Clarke, Mrs Dodds, Mr Dunne, Mr Easton, Mrs Foster, Mr Frew, Mr Givan, Mr Harvey, Mr Hilditch, Mr Humphrey, Mr Irwin, Mr Lyons, Miss McIlveen, Mr Newton, Mr Poots, Mr Robinson, Mr Stalford, Mr Storey and Mr Weir. Mr Butler voted for Mr Swann. Mr O’Toole voted for Ms S Bradley, Mr Catney[ Teller, Ayes], Mr Durkan, Ms Hunter, Mrs D Kelly, Mr McCrossan, Mr McGlone, Mr McGrath, Ms McLaughlin, and Mr McNulty. Mr O’Dowd voted for Ms Anderson, Dr Archibald, Mr Boylan, Ms Dillon, Ms Dolan, Ms Ennis [Teller, Noes], Ms Flynn [Teller, Noes], Mr Gildernew, Ms Hargey, Mr Kearney, Ms C Kelly, Mr G Kelly, Ms Kimmins, Mr Lynch, Mr McAleer, Mr McCann, Mr McGuigan, Mr McHugh, Ms Mullan, Mr Murphy, Ms Ní Chuilín, Mrs O’Neill, Ms Rogan, Mr Sheehan and Ms Sheerin. Miss Woods voted for Ms Bailey.

Question accordingly negatived.

Roy Beggs (UUP, East Antrim)

I will pause for a moment in case any Member wishes to return to the Chamber.

Amendment No 2 not moved.

Clause 7 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clauses 8 to 11 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Schedule agreed to.

Long Title

Roy Beggs (UUP, East Antrim)

I will not call amendment No 3, as it is consequential to amendment No 1, which has not been made.

Long title agreed to.

Roy Beggs (UUP, East Antrim)

That concludes the Consideration Stage of the Housing (Amendment) Bill. The Bill stands referred to the Speaker. I remind Members that the deadline for tabling amendments for the Further Consideration Stage is tomorrow at 9.30 am. Members may take their ease for a few moments.

Roy Beggs (UUP, East Antrim)

The next two motions are to approve statutory rules relating to social security benefits. There will be a single debate on both motions. I will ask the Clerk to read the first motion and then call the Minister to move it. The Minister will then commence the debate on both motions. When all who have wished to speak have done so, I will put the Question on the first motion. The second motion will then be read into the record, and I will call the Minister to move it. The Question will then be put on that motion. If that is clear, we will proceed.

Carál Ní Chuilín (Sinn Féin, Belfast North)

I beg to move:

That the Social Security Benefits Up-rating Order (Northern Ireland) 2020 be approved.

The following motion stood in the Order Paper:

That the Social Security Benefits Up-rating Regulations (Northern Ireland) 2020 be approved.

Roy Beggs (UUP, East Antrim)

The Business Committee has agreed that there should be no time limit on the debate.

Carál Ní Chuilín (Sinn Féin, Belfast North)

The two rules form the main part of the annual up-rating package that increases the rate of social security benefits, pensions and lump sum payments. Uprating usually occurs each year around the beginning of the tax year, and the two rules came into operation from April 2020.

In relation to the annual uprating of benefits, the British Secretary of State for Work and Pensions is required to undertake a review each year of the benefits in relation to the general levels of prices. That is measured by the consumer price index (CPI), which determines the amount by which various rates of benefit should be increased, thereby allowing benefit levels to maintain their value against inflation. The percentage increase is determined by the change in CPI in the 12 months up to the previous September, and CPI indicated as a positive growth of 1·7% for the period up to the end of September 2019. Therefore, the price index benefits have increased by 1·7%, and I am able to say that that includes working-age benefits, which had been frozen for four years as a result of welfare reform.

In addition to an increase in certain benefits in line with the increase in prices, commitment to the triple lock continues to apply to the basic and the new state pension. Those pension payments are increased in line with the highest growth of earnings, the growth in prices or at 2·5%.

The growth in earnings is measured by the increase in average weekly earnings for the quarter that ended in the previous July. For this year's uprating, the relevant figure displayed an increase of 3·9%. Therefore, the basic state pension and the new state pension have been increased from April by 3·9%. The pension credit standard minimum guarantee has also been increased in line with average earnings at 3·9%.

My Department has no power to increase the amounts of benefits either by different or greater amounts in annual uprating. The annual uprating order is the main statutory rule to provide for the increase in benefits rates. However, some technical provisions in relation to annual uprating are required to be made by regulations and, therefore, cannot be included in the order.

The debate encompasses the Social Security Benefits Up-rating Regulations (Northern Ireland) 2020, which make some technical provisions that are required for the accurate implementation of the increased rates. The regulations are made as a consequence of the uprating order and also include an increase to the earnings limit for carers' allowance and an increase to the personal expenses allowance for residents in care homes. As a result of the 2020 uprating package, in the region of an additional £171 million will be paid out by my Department to people here who are on social security benefits and pensions. That does not take into account the additional temporary increases and easements that were introduced in response to the coronavirus pandemic, about which Deirdre Hargey wrote to Members recently. I understand that we might want to do more for recipients of social security benefits and pensions, particularly in these unprecedented times. However, in relation to the annual uprating order, all that I can do is simply reiterate that my Department does not have the power to amend or adjust that uprating.

Therefore, I welcome Members' support for the uprating order and the consequential uprating regulations so that people here can continue to receive their increased rates.

Paula Bradley (DUP, Belfast North)

The Committee considered SR 2020/40 at its meeting on 6 April. The Committee acknowledged that the order is part of a series of statutory rules that relate to the annual uprating of certain social security benefits, pensions and allowances from April 2020. The rule makes provision that corresponds to provision made by the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions in Great Britain. The Committee noted that the implementation of the proposals for the uprating of benefits is expected to increase the Department's annually managed expenditure by approximately £171 million during 2020-21. The Committee was, therefore, content to recommend that the Assembly affirms that statutory rule.

On 6 April, the Committee also considered SR 2020/41. The Committee acknowledged that the regulations contain only consequential provisions of the Social Security Benefits Up-rating Order (Northern Ireland) 2020, and are part of a series of statutory rules that relate to the annual uprating of social security benefits and pensions. The Committee noted that the provision also amended the earnings limit on carers' allowance from £123 to £128 net per week. That limit defines the amount that a person can earn without their earnings extinguishing their entitlement to the benefit or preventing an entitlement being established. The Committee was, therefore, content to recommend that the Assembly affirms those regulations.

Roy Beggs (UUP, East Antrim)

I call the Minister for Communities to conclude and make her winding-up speech on the motions.

Carál Ní Chuilín (Sinn Féin, Belfast North)

I thank Members for their support at the Committee and in the debate. Like everybody, I look forward to passing the uprating order and regulations to ensure that those increases can be in people's purses and pockets.

Question put and agreed to. Resolved:

That the Social Security Benefits Up-rating Order (Northern Ireland) 2020 be approved.

Carál Ní Chuilín (Sinn Féin, Belfast North)

I beg to move

That the Mesothelioma Lump Sum Payments (Conditions and Amounts) (Amendment) Regulations (Northern Ireland) 2020 be approved.

Roy Beggs (UUP, East Antrim)

The Business Committee has agreed that there should be no time limit on the debate.

Carál Ní Chuilín (Sinn Féin, Belfast North)

The regulations are part of the annual uprating package, and they increase the compensation payable in the scheme under the Mesothelioma, etc., Act (Northern Ireland) 2008. Unlike the main benefit uprating order, there is no explicit requirement to review the level of payments under this scheme each year. However, the regulations have increased the amounts payable under the scheme in line with the rate of inflation. The amounts payable under the scheme have been increased for 2020-21 by 1·7%, which mirrors the percentage increase of industrial injuries benefits and in the main uprating order.

Under the scheme, those who have been exposed to asbestos can claim a lump sum payment if they are not entitled to a payment under the Pneumoconiosis, etc., (Workers' Compensation) (Northern Ireland) Order 1979, known as the 1979 scheme, and who do not otherwise have a civil claim. The scheme provides financial help to persons diagnosed with diffuse mesothelioma or, if the person has died, to their dependants within a matter of

[Inaudible]

of diagnosis and without the need to establish an occupational link or, indeed, any causative link. Therefore, provided that they have not already received a compensation payment from another source, people who suffer from this terrible disease are eligible for a payment, regardless of whether they were employees, self-employed, or, indeed, have never worked, as was the case with many family members who contracted the disease through cleaning asbestos-covered clothes.

For 2020-21, the amount payable, for example, to a person aged 37 or under at the time of diagnosis has increased from £92,259 to £93,827, the same maximum that can be paid under the 1979 scheme.

The regulations are to ensure that the compensation provided under the scheme maintains its value relative to inflation. I am sure that all Members will warmly welcome the provisions.

Paula Bradley (DUP, Belfast North)

The Committee considered the regulations at its meeting of the 6 April. The Mesothelioma Lump Sum Payments (Conditions and Amounts) (Amendment) Regulations (Northern Ireland) 2020 enable lump sum compensation payments to be made to people who have diffuse mesothelioma or to their dependants where sufferers did not claim in their lifetime. Payments are made without the need to prove negligent exposure to asbestos or that the exposure occurred during employment. The Act brings some financial assistance to sufferers at a time when many adjustments must be made to daily living arrangements as a result of the illness.

Unfortunately, loved ones will be lost to this cruel condition. Whilst nothing can replace the loss of a loved one, the Act ensures that dependants receive a lump sum payment to alleviate some of the financial burden associated with their loss. I welcome the regulations, as they will increase the amounts payable under the Act by 1·7%. That will ensure that payments remain in line with industrial injuries benefits.

The Committee recommends that the regulations be approved.

Carál Ní Chuilín (Sinn Féin, Belfast North)

I thank the Chair and members of the Committee for the positive way in which they have dealt with the regulations. I appreciate the full support of the Assembly.

Question put and agreed to. Resolved:

That the Mesothelioma Lump Sum Payments (Conditions and Amounts) (Amendment) Regulations (Northern Ireland) 2020 be approved.

Roy Beggs (UUP, East Antrim)

The Business Committee has arranged to meet at 1.00 pm today. I propose, therefore, by leave of the Assembly, to suspend the sitting until 2.00 pm. The first item of business when we return will be Question Time.

The sitting was suspended at 12.54 pm.

On resuming —

Oral Answers to Questions

Roy Beggs (UUP, East Antrim)

Order. The sitting is resumed. Members will be aware that, as part of the phased resumption of Question Time, only listed questions will be asked of Ministers at this stage. Topical questions will be suspended until 4 July. During consultations, the Business Committee indicated its preference for all Members who are initially listed to have the opportunity to ask their question if there is time in the period and for only the Members listed to have the opportunity to ask a supplementary question. I will proceed on that basis.

This is the first Question Time under these arrangements and with social distancing in the Chamber, which may necessitate some movement of Members. However, we will keep that under review. I hope that it will work out for everyone's benefit. If it is apparent that there will be time remaining as we come close to the end of the 45-minute period, I may ask for other supplementary questions.

The Executive Office

Claire Sugden (Independent, East Londonderry)

1. Ms Sugden asked the First Minister and deputy First Minister for their assessment of the Executive's public communications relating to COVID-19. (AQO 437/17-22)

Arlene Foster (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

The Executive launched a high-impact public information campaign in March to help to prevent the spread of the coronavirus and save lives. That included a leaflet drop to every home in Northern Ireland. The first phase of the campaign encouraged citizens to stay at home, keep their distance and wash their hands, and the Executive recently launched the second phase of the campaign, which urges citizens to "Stay Safe; Save Lives" and "Work Safe; Save Lives". Advertising has appeared in local daily, weekly and Sunday newspapers and on television, radio, outdoor and digital.

Claire Sugden (Independent, East Londonderry)

I really want to be generous because I recognise the unprecedented situation that the last number of months have brought; however, I will say that Executive communications have been limited in that they have failed to understand the needs of the audience and what they can comprehend. Each new announcement has brought so much confusion and anxiety and, in some cases, disregard for the restrictions being announced. We can remove that by improving our communications. As a learning experience, moving forward, not just for communications related to COVID-19 but for communications from government generally, will the First Minister commit to a review of the communications strategy with the aim of trying to improve our communications so that they reach and get the message across to the intended audience?

Arlene Foster (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

I know that the Member has a background in marketing and some expertise in the area. We carried out a point-in-time review of the entirety of the COVID-19 strategy. That was on 4 June, and it looked at all the issues in the strategy. I hear what she says about communications, but we have committed to a daily press conference. That has now become something of a staple for a lot of our journalists, where they have the opportunity to directly ask questions and supplementaries of whichever Minister is there at the time. The deputy First Minister and I are now committing to two of those per week, and other Ministers appear at the rest of the press conferences. Really, it is about speaking directly to the public to seek the partnership that, we think, is necessary to continue compliance on COVID-19.

We recognise that there are many who want to move faster in lifting lockdown. There are some who have contacted us who want to go more slowly in lifting lockdown. We have to balance all the risks that are put in front of us and try to move appropriately. We use the press conferences and, indeed, all the other methods of communication to try to get across to people why we are taking the decisions and what the impact of those decisions is and that they should then go to nidirect, which is the government website, where there is guidance that has been put out by the various Departments.

I hear what the Member says. We will, of course, look at an overall review of the issue as well as our comms strategy, but I thank her for her interest in the matter.

Rachel Woods (Green, North Down)

2. Miss Woods asked the First Minister and deputy First Minister for an update on the implementation of the Troubles-related-incident victims' payment scheme. (AQO 438/17-22)

Jonathan Buckley (DUP, Upper Bann)

9. Mr Buckley asked the First Minister and deputy First Minister to outline the issues requiring resolution to allow victims to receive payment from the Troubles-related-incident victims' payment scheme. (AQO 445/17-22)

Sinéad McLaughlin (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

15. Ms McLaughlin asked the First Minister and deputy First Minister when they will nominate a Department to administer the Troubles-related-incident victims' payment scheme. (AQO 451/17-22)

Arlene Foster (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

Mr Deputy Speaker, with your permission I will answer questions 2, 9 and 15 together.

Significant work has been undertaken by officials to date on the delivery structures for the Troubles permanent disablement payment scheme. However, important issues remain to be resolved, including the designation of a Northern Ireland Department to exercise the administrative functions of the board on the board's behalf, the source of funding for the scheme and clarity on how exceptions are to be interpreted. A series of discussions have taken place with officials in relevant Northern Ireland Civil Service (NICS) Departments in relation to the administration of the scheme, and that work is ongoing. However, security of funding of the scheme has not yet been confirmed. Westminster has an obligation and must deliver on its responsibility to support funding for the scheme. Efforts to resolve the issue as swiftly as possible continue. The deputy First Minister and I have made it clear that we are committed to addressing all of the outstanding issues. The Westminster regulations came into force on 29 May. Further time is still required to deal with outstanding issues and establish the necessary arrangements for the operation of the scheme. We know that that is deeply disappointing for many victims and survivors who need the support. We share that disappointment and will work to do all that we can to get the scheme delivered as soon as possible.

Rachel Woods (Green, North Down)

As the First Minister will be aware, research has shown that an estimated 61% of the Northern Irish adult population have experienced a traumatic event at some point in their lifetime, so I ask for an update on the implementation of the regional trauma network.

Arlene Foster (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

The aim, as the Member will know, is to deliver a comprehensive regional trauma service through partnership working, building on existing resources and expertise in both the statutory and the voluntary and community service. The service will be based on internationally recognised psychological therapies and the stepped care model and will encompass services provided by the voluntary and community sector in relation to steps 1 to 3 and in the health and social care sector for the higher steps from 3 to 5. Phase one of the service is due to be launched soon; however, due to the COVID pandemic, that has been delayed. We are acutely aware of how the pandemic is affecting mental health in particular, and we are working with the Department of Health on how arrangements can be taken forward in relation to this important project.

Jonathan Buckley (DUP, Upper Bann)

I know that the First Minister will share my disgust and anger at the continued blockade by some Members of a victims' pension in Northern Ireland. While I accept that the Executive and the Assembly are the best route to deliver such a pension, in light of the delay, would the First Minister be opposed to looking at Westminster as potentially the best route to deliver the scheme to ensure that innocent victims and survivors receive the pension that they rightly deserve?

Arlene Foster (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

The office and I, in particular, are particularly upset that the scheme has not proceeded as it was meant to do. We do not have agreement on a designated Department yet. I certainly hope that that will change and that we can get agreement on a designated Department. As you know, the Department of Justice has offered to be that Department. Therefore, it is important that we proceed, because it is wrong that innocent victims are not receiving what they are legally entitled to receive. We should recognise the hurt that has been caused by this not coming into operation on the date when it was to do so, and we should work to make sure that we have agreement on the designated Department as soon as possible. However, if that is not possible and given that this came from Westminster through the Northern Ireland (Executive Formation etc) Act 2019 originally and then through the regulations of January this year, the Westminster Government have an obligation to look to other ways to deal with the issue.

Sinéad McLaughlin (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

Does the Minister agree that, 22 years on from the Good Friday Agreement, it is obscene that our citizens who have been brutally maimed by their fellow countrymen are still in a state of limbo regarding their pension payments? I am ashamed: are you?

Arlene Foster (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

I think that I have already said to the Member that we very much should recognise the hurt and pain that has been caused by the fact that the pension is not in place. We all have a duty to acknowledge that; I certainly acknowledge that. However, there is no point in acknowledgement unless we try to make sure that it happens quickly, and I am certainly committed to trying to do that. It is legally in place now, and therefore there is an obligation on us to make sure that the pension payment comes forward as quickly as possible so that we can help those who were dreadfully injured during the period euphemistically called "the Troubles".

Liz Kimmins (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

3. Ms Kimmins asked the First Minister and deputy First Minister for an update on the appointment of the panel of five experts to assist the work of the Ad Hoc Committee on a Bill of Rights, as set out in New Decade, New Approach. (AQO 439/17-22)

Arlene Foster (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

This will be answered by junior Minister Lyons.

Gordon Lyons (DUP, East Antrim)

The process to select the panel of experts is under way, and it is expected that the panel will be in place by July this year. Executive Office officials provided written briefing to the Ad Hoc Committee in late April in respect of the process and provided an update on progress at a meeting on 4 June.

Liz Kimmins (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

When is the process likely to be completed and the appointments made?

Gordon Lyons (DUP, East Antrim)

Unfortunately, given the current pandemic, it has not been possible to bring the work forward in as expedient a way as we might have initially planned. That said, significant progress has now been made. Potential members of the panel of experts have been identified, contacted by officials and invited to submit an expression-of-interest form by 15 June. The form allows the candidate to set out their relevant expertise. That information will then inform the selection of panel members, who are expected to be appointed in July. We know how important the issue is to many Members, and it is important that the panel is in place so that it can support the Ad Hoc Committee. In particular, as the Committee says, the panel of experts will be there to help with the particular circumstances that we face in Northern Ireland. Those should not be taken lightly, and that is why the New Decade, New Approach agreement states that the establishment of cross-party and cross-community support will be critical in advancing a bill of rights. That is why the panel needs to be in place to help with that work.

William Humphrey (DUP, Belfast North)

4. Mr Humphrey asked the First Minister and deputy First Minister for an update on the Executive's response to COVID-19. (AQO 440/17-22)

Arlene Foster (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

The management of the response to the COVID-19 pandemic has been the Executive's number-one priority over recent months. Our objective has been to help keep people safe and to support those who have faced real hardship as a result of the pandemic. The extraordinary measures that we have introduced have drastically affected the way each of us lives our lives, and, whilst there is no room for complacency, I am pleased to say that the measures are working and, as a result, many lives have been saved.

I am pleased to say that, through our regular review of the restrictions, the scientific evidence has allowed us to relax some of them to restore some of our freedoms to work, visit and play. The Executive have also started the process of developing a recovery framework that will have a particular focus on achieving effective health, economic and societal recovery.

William Humphrey (DUP, Belfast North)

I thank the Executive for the mitigations that they have put in place to protect our people.

Throughout COVID-19, extra finance has been provided for families in some of our more deprived communities whose children qualify for free school meals. Obviously, that funding will end at the end of the academic year at the end of this month. Given that I represent some of the most deprived communities not just in Northern Ireland but in the United Kingdom, can I ask whether the Executive will look at putting in extra resource for those families, to address the issue of holiday hunger over the summer months?

Arlene Foster (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

I am very sympathetic to ensuring that our young people have the certainty of at least one good meal per day over the summer months. We know that that is a challenge for many families, and I know that the deputy First Minister also takes the issue very seriously. Having spoken to the Education Minister, I know that he is also very supportive.

The Department for Communities has been ensuring that young people in receipt of free school meals have continued to be supported when they have been off school during the COVID-19 crisis. Of course, doing well in education can depend on a range of home and personal factors, but we need to ensure that young people have the best possible opportunities to succeed when they return to school, hopefully in late August/September.

There are exceptional circumstances due to COVID-19. Therefore, I will propose to the Executive that meals continue to be provided to that cohort of children over the summer period this year if the necessary finances can be secured.

Mervyn Storey (DUP, North Antrim)

5. Mr Storey asked the First Minister and deputy First Minister, in progressing decisions regarding New Decade, New Approach, whether they will ensure all due process and diligence has been carried out in relation to the cost implications for other budgets. (AQO 441/17-22)

Arlene Foster (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

The recovery from the COVID-19 crisis will require a whole-of-government approach, together with the collective prioritisation of resources to ensure the best outcome for our citizens. There are significant financial challenges arising from the pandemic, and all Departments are undertaking a reprioritisation exercise to ensure that available budgets are aligned with key priority areas. Cost implications of any expenditure proposals, including those outlined in New Decade, New Approach, that have not been specifically funded will be considered in that context and will include all relevant public-sector expenditure evaluation and assessment processes.

Mervyn Storey (DUP, North Antrim)

I thank the First Minister for her answer. Given the obvious challenges that we face, which she referred to in her answer, I seek assurance that financial prudence and accountability are at the centre of the decisions that will be made. I say that on the back of an increasing number of reports coming from the Comptroller and Auditor General, not least the recent one regarding the LandWeb situation, about which he states:

"I am alarmed that mechanisms were not put in place to secure better value for money".

I appreciate the financial —

Roy Beggs (UUP, East Antrim)

Will the Member come to his question?

Mervyn Storey (DUP, North Antrim)

— problems that we will face, but an assurance that things will be done in a way that is prudent and in the best interests of our citizens is vital.

Arlene Foster (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

I thank the Member for his comments. Of course, it is a key principle, when it comes to budgeting and public expenditure, that money is put to use in a way that delivers maximum benefit and that the Executive are accountable for all the spend. That is why every expenditure decision must be supported by a proportionate business case that is properly appraised and approved as well. To help us with that task and ensure that all decisions are properly taken on the basis of informed evidence, the Department of Finance has produced a comprehensive guide to expenditure appraisal and approval, and all the projects in New Decade, New Approach will go through such a procedure.

Catherine Kelly (Sinn Féin, West Tyrone)

6. Ms C Kelly asked the First Minister and deputy First Minister for an update on the negotiations on the implementation of the Protocol on Ireland/Northern Ireland. (AQO 442/17-22)

Arlene Foster (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

The implementation of the protocol is a reserved matter for Her Majesty's Government. On 20 May, the Government published their proposals for the implementation of the protocol in a Command Paper, 'The UK's approach to the Northern Ireland Protocol'. Some elements of the delivery and implementation of the protocol, such as the agri-food requirements, fall within our devolved competence, and the Executive have committed to working with Her Majesty's Government to ensure the delivery of those elements by the end of the transition period.

Catherine Kelly (Sinn Féin, West Tyrone)

Minister, thank you for your answer. What stakeholder engagement has taken place to date?

Arlene Foster (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

Stakeholder engagement has already begun. Through the Northern Ireland Office, the Secretary of State set up a number of meetings with the business community, and junior Ministers Kearney and Lyons attended those. I think that those took place last Wednesday. The deputy First Minister and I intend to have more stakeholder engagement as we move through the implementation of the protocol. We think that it is very important to be able to communicate both ways in relation to what is needed in respect of the implementation of the protocol, and then for us to communicate as to the stage of the negotiations. Therefore, stakeholder engagement will continue, and we think that it is necessary as we move to implement the protocol.

Roy Beggs (UUP, East Antrim)

The sound system was picking up interference from a mobile phone just then, so I ask Members to ensure that their phone does not interfere with their microphone.

Harry Harvey (DUP, Strangford)

7. Mr Harvey asked the First Minister and deputy First Minister how they plan to support the Minister for the Economy in promoting Northern Ireland as a region for investment and tourism in the aftermath of the COVID-19 pandemic. (AQO 443/17-22)

Arlene Foster (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

Economic recovery is a key priority for the Executive, and promoting Northern Ireland overseas will be a key aspect of that recovery process. The Executive's offices in Washington DC, Brussels and Beijing have an important role to play in representing our priorities in those countries and regions. They will influence and lobby other government decision-makers to help promote our economic priorities, including tourism, businesses and education. That includes lobbying for market access, engaging with Governments to get favourable relationships for our businesses and universities and promoting our agriculture and tourism offering. Each of our overseas offices will help to identify economic opportunities with other Governments, and work with Invest Northern Ireland, Tourism Ireland and other organisations as part of a corporate approach to developing those opportunities.

Harry Harvey (DUP, Strangford)

Thank you for your response, First Minister. Our tourism sector will be significantly impacted by the lack of international travel and the current quarantine regulations. Do you foresee the sector requiring additional assistance in the time ahead?

Arlene Foster (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

I think that the sector will be very pleased with the announcements that the Executive made yesterday in relation to bringing forward the dates for reopening hotels, restaurants, caravan and self-catering accommodation because that gives it the opportunity to market its destinations.

I very much hope that people living in Northern Ireland will take a look at Northern Ireland through new glasses this year and holiday at home, perhaps visit somewhere that they have not been to for some time or discover the delights of, one might be tempted to say, Fermanagh, although other places are available, of course.

[Laughter.]

It is important that we send out a message that we want to support our tourism industry. We want people to look at the opportunities on their doorsteps, and, maybe, rediscover places where they have not been for some time. I hope that people will take that opportunity.

Colm Gildernew (Sinn Féin, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

8. Mr Gildernew asked the First Minister and deputy First Minister whether they plan to fill any vacancy for Attorney General through open competition. (AQO 444/17-22)

Arlene Foster (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

I thank the Member for his question. Before I proceed, I would like to take this opportunity to place on record the thanks of the Executive to Mr John Larkin QC, who has served as Attorney General for 10 years. The role of Attorney General is extremely important, and Mr Larkin fulfilled that role in an exemplary fashion.

As set out in our written statement yesterday, Mr Larkin's term of office — his second term of office, actually — ends on 30 June 2020. It is our intention to identify and appoint a successor through an open competition based on the principles that apply to public appointments. We have tasked officials to look into that process to take it forward. We have agreed that Ms Brenda King, First Legislative Counsel, will discharge the functions of Attorney General in the interim.

Colm Gildernew (Sinn Féin, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

I welcome the fact that the recruitment process to replace the outgoing Attorney General will be through open competition, as is appropriate.

Ba mhaith liom fáilte mhór a chur roimh Brenda King. I sincerely welcome Brenda King as a interim Attorney General. She serves the Executive as chief legislative adviser, and has done for the past decade. She is an experienced and respected lawyer, including as a former president of the Commonwealth Association of Legislative Counsel. It is very welcome to increasingly see more women occupying positions at the highest levels of public life, alongside yourself, First Minister, and Michelle O'Neill, as joint heads of Government. If I may, I would like to say that I hope that Ms King does not experience a frosty reception as she must have done when she completed her work in the Arctic Circle. I also hope —

Roy Beggs (UUP, East Antrim)

Have you a question?

Colm Gildernew (Sinn Féin, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

— that the cold winds of change continue to blow along the corridors of male power and privilege.

So, my question is: do the Executive intend to review the remit of the future Attorney General given that it is a decade since the original Attorney General was appointed?

Arlene Foster (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

I thank the Member for his comments, in particular on behalf of Ms King. I think that she will provide a good service to us in the interim. She has been an excellent First Counsel and I think that she will continue to do that and provide us with excellent advice.

Given that the Attorney General's office was established 10 years ago, and Mr Larkin served during those 10 years, it is now prudent to review the terms of reference of the office and the terms and conditions of the post holder. However, we do not want to unduly delay the process of appointing a new Attorney General. I advised the Advocate General for Northern Ireland today, as I should, that we are going to an open process and have appointed Ms King in the interim, because it is important that Ms Braverman is aware that we have made that appointment as well. This is an opportunity, as the Member said, to see what the terms of reference are for the office and look at the post holder's terms and conditions.

Keith Buchanan (DUP, Mid Ulster)

10. Mr K Buchanan asked the First Minister and deputy First Minister what discussions they have had with the Minister of Health in relation to improving non-COVID-19 healthcare services. (AQO 446/17-22)

Arlene Foster (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

The impact of the COVID-19 pandemic on the planning and delivery of health and social care services cannot be underestimated and it has compounded the challenges that those services were already facing. This has been a continuing concern of the Executive Committee and, following consultation with ministerial colleagues, the Minister of Health has published a strategic framework for rebuilding health and social care services in which he sets out his plans to rebuild and improve those services in what will remain a very difficult and uncertain environment for some time.

Keith Buchanan (DUP, Mid Ulster)

I thank the First Minister for her answer so far. Does she agree that with the COVID-19 response, albeit that it is very important from a medical point of view, other illnesses have possibly been left behind and that some people, including those who are suffering from heart disease and cancer etc, feel somewhat left out?

Arlene Foster (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

I know that the Minister of Health has been before the House and has published his strategic framework for rebuilding. However, it is very much a concern for the Executive that non-COVID-19 healthcare, because of the very reason of trying to protect citizens from COVID-19, had to take a back seat. We are very concerned about that and we want to make sure that we ramp-up those services again. The Minister of Health has set out how he intends to do that, and service activity plans and targets will be developed for each programme of care and speciality, with those updated every three months. Therefore, a series of actions, including for cancer care, adult social care, mental health services, ophthalmic and dental services and, indeed, all other allied health professions, will underpin his plans and it is very important that we move ahead on those issues.

Gerry Kelly (Sinn Féin, Belfast North)

11. Mr G Kelly asked the First Minister and deputy First Minister for an update on the work undertaken to implement recommendations B1, B2, B3 and B4 of the Tackling Paramilitary Activity, Criminality and Organised Crime — Executive Action Plan. (AQO 447/17-22)

Arlene Foster (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

The Executive Office has lead responsibility for delivering actions B1 to B4. Good progress has been made on actions B1, B2 and B3. This includes the Northern Ireland Civil Service adopting the employer's guidance on recruiting people with conflict-related convictions, while access to financial services and travel advice has also been improved.

On action B4, also known as the Communities in Transition project, delivery partners have been appointed to deliver 29 individual projects across the eight areas of focus for the project, which include the greater Ardoyne and New Lodge area in north Belfast.

Gerry Kelly (Sinn Féin, Belfast North)

As you mentioned, B1, B2 and B3 have made fair progress, and I think that you also accepted that B4 has been through a series of delays. I congratulate the communities for persisting in that.

Will the First Minister ensure that the work under B4 will continue and that it will build safe, confident and resilient communities?

Arlene Foster (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

I think that the work in B4 has been successful. Obviously, we understand that there was a delay at the start of it but that was to allow communities to be a part of the co-design of what the interventions would be in their community. I think that that has been welcomed by the communities. It is important that stakeholders are involved in the design of any project that is there.

There will continue to be a cross-departmental plan in dealing with Communities in Transition. The deputy First Minister and I have been impressed with the way in which the programmes have been able to flex with regard to COVID-19. They still continue to deliver services despite the fact that they have had to deal with the pandemic. Indeed, we were at the launch of a Communities in Transition project, albeit via Zoom, on 29 May up in Londonderry in the Creggan and Brandywell areas. Therefore, we have continued with the Communities in Transition programme, albeit that some of it has to be delivered remotely at this time.

Paula Bradley (DUP, Belfast North)

12. Ms P Bradley asked the First Minister and deputy First Minister to outline the impact of COVID-19 on finalising the Programme for Government. (AQO 448/17-22)

Arlene Foster (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

It is clear that the changes that have been brought about by the COVID-19 crisis, with the emergency response measures that we had to put in place to keep people safe and to protect our magnificent health service, have been considerable. Our response is working well and we know how important it is to keep up our guard. We have reached an important point in the crisis where we are looking beyond the response phase towards the actions that will be needed to affect a robust and sustainable recovery, rebuild public services and to restore more normal ways of living.

That process has started, along with the ongoing review of the restrictions and relaxations that we have announced.

The Executive have also started the process of developing a comprehensive recovery framework, which will form an important element of the next Programme for Government.

Paula Bradley (DUP, Belfast North)

I thank the First Minister for her answer. We know that the Programme for Government underpins all the business that we do in this House. What lessons have been learned through COVID-19 around collective responsibility and cross-departmental working, which we know is imperative when it comes to the Programme for Government?

Arlene Foster (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

It is something that we have greatly benefited from. COVID-19 has brought many challenges, but it has also shown that we can work in a cross-departmental way and deliver outcomes in a fast fashion, which, sometimes, is a challenge for Departments, but we have been able to do that during this pandemic, and we should learn the lessons of that and try to move forward.

We were on target to deliver our new programme in April before the COVID-19 pandemic became a reality. Obviously, we are now in a very different environment from where we were at the beginning of March. So, it is clear that some of the planning assumptions that we were adhering to will have to be reviewed, but it is still our plan to deliver an outcomes-based Programme for Government. We think that that is the way forward, and the past three months have underlined the need for us to do that.

Roy Beggs (UUP, East Antrim)

We are ahead of schedule, so I will take supplementary questions in the remaining two questions.

Mike Nesbitt (UUP, Strangford)

13. Mr Nesbitt asked the First Minister and deputy First Minister for their assessment of the Cabinet Office report, 'The European Union (Withdrawal) Act and Common Frameworks: 26 December 2019 to 25 March 2020', as it refers to input from the Northern Ireland Executive. (AQO 449/17-22)

Arlene Foster (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

I welcome the publication of the report. The Northern Ireland Executive have been working closely with the other devolved Administrations to develop policy and legislation in relation to the common frameworks. As a result of the good intergovernmental working arrangements, the UK Government have not needed to use the freezing powers provided for in the European Union (Withdrawal) Act.

The report references the principles for developing frameworks agreed in October 2017 at the Joint Ministerial Committee (European negotiations) and, in welcoming the restoration of the Executive, refers to our consideration of those principles. I am pleased to announce that those were endorsed at the Executive meeting yesterday.

Mike Nesbitt (UUP, Strangford)

I thank the First Minister. I think perhaps she has answered my supplementary question by yesterday's decision of the Executive, but I note that, in the report at paragraph 1.4, the principles governing the frameworks were agreed by the UK, Welsh and Scottish Governments in October 2017, and, in paragraph 1.32, the same three Governments have agreed to engage their legislatures in pre-legislative scrutiny. So, does yesterday's decision, which you have just mentioned to the Assembly, include all those actions?

Arlene Foster (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

We confirmed the principles yesterday at the Brexit subcommittee of the Executive. I have approved the correspondence to the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster to inform him of that. We will now be looking at the legislative scrutiny of the different Bills that have to come to this place. Obviously, there are some that will be taken forward at Westminster. When that happens, I very much hope that the Committees and this House, by legislative consent motion, will have a mechanism in which to be involved in the legislation.

Jim Allister (Traditional Unionist Voice, North Antrim)

Taking what the Minister said in her earlier answer about withdrawal from the EU, am I now to take it that the First Minister accepts the iniquitous protocol, which will create a border down the Irish Sea? Does she no longer fear or think that it will create constitutional and economic damage of a catastrophic nature? Is that why it seems that the Executive are now working to implement the protocol that was hitherto anathema?

Arlene Foster (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

I thank the Member for his question. First of all, there is not much point in standing and saying that we do not accept the protocol when the protocol is legislative reality. I may not like it — I do not like it, and let us be very clear about that — but my job now as First Minister is to try and make sure that we minimise any checks between Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Obviously, there are SPS checks at the moment between Great Britain and Northern Ireland, but we have to make sure that those are kept to a minimum. We must make sure that there is unfettered access, as it says in the UK Government command paper, between Northern Ireland and Great Britain. We will very much want to see the Government standing up to their commitments in the Command Paper. I can say all the day long that I am against the protocol, but it is a legislative reality. Therefore, I have to deal with it.

Colin McGrath (Social Democratic and Labour Party, South Down)

Given the destructive impact that COVID has had on business in the North and the fact that all sectors do not want to see any further damage caused to their business, have the Executive given any consideration to extending the transition period to make sure that Brexit has a minimal impact on businesses here?

Arlene Foster (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

That is exactly what we are trying to achieve. We are working with Her Majesty's Government to make sure that we have a minimal amount of interference with our businesses, which continue to provide a great service to the people of Northern Ireland. It is important that we continue to do that.

Of course, it is a reserved matter for the United Kingdom Government and the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster made it very clear at the Joint Committee, which the deputy First Minister and I attended last Friday, that the UK Government would not be asking for an extension to the Brexit transition period. That being the case, our focus should very much be on trying to get certainty and clarity for our businesses. They very much need that and we are very much committed to trying to achieve that.

Mark Durkan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

14. Mr Durkan asked the First Minister and deputy First Minister for an update on the progress of Magee medical school. (AQO 450/17-22)

Arlene Foster (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

The Executive have reaffirmed the commitments set out in 'New Decade, New Approach' to establish a graduate-entry medical school on the Magee campus. Their objective now is to progress the project to secure a sustainable outcome within the fastest feasible timetable. It is a complex project involving a number of Departments and external agencies. The Executive Office is working with the Department of Health, the Department for the Economy and the Department of Finance to prepare further advice to Executive on the issues that need to be addressed to secure that sustainability.

Mark Durkan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

I thank the First Minister for her response. Given the announcement from the deputy First Minister on 7 May that the Executive Office would take forward the medical school project and her subsequent announcement that it had been approved, can the Executive Office give a cast-iron guarantee that, as announced, the Magee medical school will be ready for admissions by September next year? Will the Minister outline what specific dates and deadlines must be met to achieve that goal?

Arlene Foster (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

I thank the Member for his question. Just yesterday, at the Executive meeting, we received an update from the head of the Civil Service about the project. The Strategic Investment Board is involved to try to make sure that we minimise the risks to the delivery of the project. The head of the Civil Service was able to give us an update on the progress of the Magee medical school and, indeed, to talk us through the risk management issues.

We do not intend to make any announcements about the date of the first intake until all the necessary preparatory work has been completed, and we very much hope that that will continue at pace in the Executive Office. As I said, it is a cross-departmental issue involving a number of different Departments, which is why the Executive Office stepped in to try to assist in making sure that things move smoothly.

Steve Aiken (UUP, South Antrim)

I thank the Minister for her comments so far. Minister, you will, of course, be aware that one of the key strategic partners for Magee is Ulster University. It has been involved in some very significant cost overruns on another one of its campuses. Indeed, I think that there are investigations ongoing into whether it is capable of managing projects. Therefore, what confidence does the Minister have in Ulster University being a suitable partner for delivering this vital project for Londonderry?

Arlene Foster (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

I note the Member's comments. Some of those matters are, of course, for the Minister for the Economy, and I am sure that he will take those up with her. Capacity and finance are clearly issues that will have to be examined in a wider look at risk management in the scheme. That was why the head of the Civil Service was able to give us an update yesterday. We have involved the Strategic Investment Board to look at all those issues so that, moving forward, we know where the risks are and can make sure that we are in a good place with the delivery of that commitment.

Claire Sugden (Independent, East Londonderry)

I understand that considerable capital moneys have been committed to the Magee project. Will it be necessary to provide additional moneys to the Department for the Economy for the running and day-to-day costs or will it have to find those from within its budget?

Arlene Foster (DUP, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

As I said, the financial and governance challenges facing UU will be overseen by the Strategic Investment Board. It is important that we have that body looking in at what we are trying to achieve to give us the confidence that any risks that are identified can be managed and mitigated. Those Ulster University matters will be taken forward by the Department for the Economy with oversight from the Executive Office.

Roy Beggs (UUP, East Antrim)

Members, all 15 questions have been answered by the First Minister and the junior Minister. As such, we have come to the end of questions to the Executive Office. I invite Members to take their ease for a few moments until 2.45 pm, at which point Question Time will resume with questions to the Minister of Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs.

Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs

Roy Beggs (UUP, East Antrim)

I say, for the benefit of Members who may not have been in the Chamber earlier, that the Member who listed the question will be offered a supplementary question. If we are ahead of schedule near the end of the list, other Members may have an opportunity for supplementary questions.

Mark Durkan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

1. Mr Durkan asked the Minister of Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs for his assessment of the impact the COVID-19 pandemic is having on household recycling rates. (AQO 452/17-22)

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

No official statistics have been published yet for household recycling rates during the pandemic, and, therefore, I cannot definitively identify whether there has been a significant impact on the household recycling rate, compared with pre-COVID figures. Provisional information for household recycling during the quarter from April to June will not be available until 20 October. Unverified information from councils and private waste companies suggests an increase in recycling at the kerbside due to more people being at home. However, there has also been a corresponding reported increase in kerbside residual waste arisings.

Northern Ireland is already well positioned in terms of recycling. Prior to the COVID-19 crisis, the latest official statistics showed a provisional household recycling rate of 52·3% for the 12-month rolling period up to 31 December 2019. The EU 2020 target of 50% for waste from households recycling was also met during 2019. During the last decade, the household recycling rate has increased by 15 percentage points. In order to normalise recycling behaviours post COVID and build on the momentum for recycling observed in recent years, communications and capital funding initiatives are being delivered to assist with recovery.

Mark Durkan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

I thank the Minister for his answer. One of my proudest achievements in my former role as Environment Minister was to get every school in Northern Ireland on the Eco-Schools programme: the only place in the world to achieve that. However, we have a bit of a problem in our schools with where their waste goes, with some schools having no recycling facility whatsoever. That is environmentally damaging and a drain on public finance. Will the Minister work with his counterpart and colleague in Education to ensure a better approach to waste disposal across our school estate?

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

I am happy to do that. I will pass the Member's question to Minister Weir and will ask him for a response as well in following that up.

John Stewart (UUP, East Antrim)

2. Mr Stewart asked the Minister of Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs to outline when a decision will be made on the application for a marine licence for the Islandmagee gas storage project. (AQO 453/17-22)

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

I anticipate that a decision on the application for a marine construction licence for the Islandmagee gas storage project could potentially be made in autumn 2020. It should be noted that there are wider aspects to the project to be considered by other organisations that, I understand, have still to be resolved.

John Stewart (UUP, East Antrim)

I thank the Minister for his answer. The Minister will be aware that, in making the decision on the marine licence, there will be considerable public safety and environmental impact concerns about the proposal in the local area, particularly in Islandmagee and across east Antrim. Has additional environmental information been requested from the developer, InfraStrata, and will it be subject to further public consultation?

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

Obviously, the planning side of it lies with the Department for Infrastructure, and it is for it to seek further information from the developer, as and when required. I assume that it will have been requesting information as issues arise.

My Department's role has to do with the environment and marine licensing. I have stayed back from it until all the information is available and a recommendation is made to me by the experts who are looking into it.

Pat Catney (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Lagan Valley)

3. Mr Catney asked the Minister of Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs what preparations he has made to protect the agri-food sector and local farmers from the impact of the exiting the European Union withdrawal transition period ending without an agreement. (AQO 454/17-22)

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

At the end of the transition period, the Ireland/Northern Ireland protocol will come into effect, whereby Northern Ireland will remain aligned to the EU on certain rules. The challenge of having a fully operational regime agreed and in place by the end of this year remains significant.

From 1 January, the greater the deviation between the UK and the EU in terms of trading arrangements, tariffs and sanitary and phytosanitary (SPS) rules, the more difficult and intrusive the protocol becomes. Therefore, one of my key priorities is for the EU and UK to agree a zero tariff and zero quota limit deal and to have maximum alignment in SPS arrangements. There is still time to achieve that, and it is in everyone's interest that we do so. If there is no trade agreement between the UK and the EU, the implementation of the protocol becomes even more challenging.

It is my aim to ensure that the Northern Ireland protocol is implemented in a way that maximises the flow of trade and works for Northern Ireland businesses and citizens when it comes to agri-food. That means the continued importation of animal and plant products and live animals into Northern Ireland from GB and continued, unconstrained access for Northern Ireland's businesses to their key market in Great Britain. The Cabinet Office published a command paper on the UK's approach to the Northern Ireland protocol on 20 May. The paper sets out proposals on how UKG will operationalise the protocol and on how a four-point plan for the protocol will be delivered. I welcome the commitments that have been made in the command paper, and my Department will continue to work with UKG and cooperate on that basis.

Pat Catney (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Lagan Valley)

I thank the Minister for his answer. The agriculture sector was in a time of great difficulty and uncertainty even before the pandemic. Having listened to what he said, I feel that he must, surely, agree that we must extend the transition period to allow some stability in the sector before the impact of Brexit.

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

A lot of stability would come about if Michel Barnier would lift the nonsense of an idea that we need export certificates to go from NI to GB. The UK Government have made it clear that that is not something that they need, wish for or desire. Every party in the Chamber needs to reject Mr Barnier's suggestion that those are required, because they will be damaging to every business that exports to GB and, consequently, to their employees. Every party needs to respect the well-being of businesses and employees in Northern Ireland and say to Mr Barnier, "Export health certificates are not required for the good food that is produced in Northern Ireland and exported to Great Britain. They have not been required before, and the UK does not want them. We do not need them now, so why are you trying to force them on Northern Ireland and damage Northern Ireland as a consequence?". That would give businesses some surety.

Pat Catney (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Lagan Valley)

I did not vote for it.

Roy Beggs (UUP, East Antrim)

Order.

Harry Harvey (DUP, Strangford)

4. Mr Harvey asked the Minister of Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs whether he will provide financial support to the sheep industry, similar to that afforded to the beef and dairy industries, to mitigate the impact of the COVID-19 pandemic. (AQO 455/17-22)

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

Since the start of the COVID-19 pandemic, I and my officials have been in regular contact with industry representatives and stakeholders to assess its impact. I have been concerned about the serious threat to farm incomes due to falling farmgate prices in some sectors as a result of the closure of markets in food service and hospitality and the significant risk that that could pose to the existence of otherwise viable farm businesses. From factual monitoring of market data and farmgate prices, I was aware that losses had already occurred in the beef, dairy, ornamental horticulture and spring lamb production sectors. I have since become aware of other issues in the sheep sector related to the market for wool.

The £25 million COVID support package will be targeted towards the businesses that have been hardest hit financially as a direct result of the pandemic. To that end, my officials continue to monitor the impact on all sectors, including the sheep sector, and are assessing the need for support as circumstances evolve.

It is also important to note that I am still concerned about the longer-term market for livestock and the knock-on effect that the pandemic might have on farmgate prices later in the season, when more lambs are marketed and store lambs are sold. If market developments over the coming weeks and months dictate that we need more funding, I will go back to the Executive to seek additional support.

Harry Harvey (DUP, Strangford)

I thank the Minister for his answer. A significant proportion is exported via markets to the Republic. Will the Department take market prices in the Republic into consideration when determining whether assistance is required?

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

The period when lamb prices dipped quite badly was shorter than was the case for the beef and dairy industries. We are happy to look at all of the markets. Obviously, not all lambs that are going to slaughter are slaughtered in Northern Ireland; quite a lot are slaughtered in the Republic of Ireland and, consequently, are sold in live markets. That is an area that we will look at.

Paula Bradley (DUP, Belfast North)

5. Ms P Bradley asked the Minister of Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs what impact the COVID-19 lockdown has had on air pollution. (AQO 456/17-22)

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

My Department continually monitors the quality of air across Northern Ireland. That includes monitoring such pollutants as particulate matter and nitrogen dioxide. My Department has noted that, whilst levels of nitrogen dioxide have remained lower since lockdown in 2020 than they were in previous years, the levels of particulate matter have varied considerably. On 9 April, for example, my Department issued an air pollution alert for the following day, due to the levels of particulate matter forecasted. The primary sources of particulate matter in Northern Ireland are domestic wood and coal burning and industrial combustion. Nitrogen dioxide sources include domestic and industrial combustion and road transport.

Air pollution is affected by local topography and weather conditions, and concentrations of pollutants can vary in a relatively short period. Therefore continuous monitoring of air quality is needed to fully assess any real changes and their subsequent impacts. My officials will continue to monitor the data collected, and I encourage everyone to download the new Northern Ireland air app in order to receive the most up-to-date information on the quality of air across Northern Ireland.

Paula Bradley (DUP, Belfast North)

I thank the Minister for his answer. As a Belfast representative, I find it remarkable to see the difference not only in air quality but in the sights and sounds of nature around us. As we see lockdown easing and people returning to their normal way of life, especially travelling in and out of Belfast, have you had conversations with the Minister for Infrastructure about people using their own vehicle because they are afraid to use public transport because of fears around social distancing?

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

Those issues have been discussed at Executive. Certainly, there is a significant problem with people not using public transport because of fears related to COVID-19, which is entirely understandable. The upside of all of this is that many people have demonstrated that working from home can happen and works extremely well. I welcome the fact that many people are working from home and doing so productively. I hope that, going forward, firms, businesses and, indeed, government and local government will look at how they can facilitate more people working from home. That may not mean that somebody works from home five days a week, but it may mean that they work from home two or three days a week. In instances where you have a good assessment of the volume and quality of work that people do and it works, why would you not use it? I hope that, going forward, there will be less pressure on transportation in general as a consequence of that, but I recognise that public transport has a significant problem, going forward, in that people will not feel as comfortable as they did to sit beside a stranger on a bus or train.

David Hilditch (DUP, East Antrim)

6. Mr Hilditch asked the Minister of Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs, now they have reopened to the public, what measures have been put in place to prevent antisocial behaviour at rural amenity sites. (AQO 457/17-22)

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

My Department has management oversight of over 190 forest parks, country parks and nature reserves, in addition to a large public angling estate across Northern Ireland. Rural amenity sites also comprise lands owned and managed by a number of other organisations, including councils, Northern Ireland Water and environmental organisations. My Department can put measures in place to prevent antisocial behaviour at sites under our direct management only.

Since the early stages of COVID-19 restrictions, my officials have engaged with the PSNI on an ongoing basis. Where antisocial behaviour becomes apparent at one of the sites that my Department manages, my officials will, where necessary, request the attendance of the PSNI. The PSNI has been very supportive and proactive to date, and I express my thanks for their service on that point.

The reopening of car parks at rural amenity sites coincided with a period of good weather and an easing of social restrictions. Unfortunately, antisocial behaviour occurred at a number of sites and beauty spots; in particular, there were large gatherings, consumption of alcohol and littering. Those issues were, unfortunately, not unique to one area. Issues were reported on a number of beaches, in the Mournes and at other scenic locations. I am disappointed by those who behaved in such an irresponsible manner through their lack of adherence to social responsibilities and their disregard for our environment. At this time, many people value the opportunity to get out and enjoy the peace and mental well-being offered by nature, and such selfish behaviour by some ruins the experience for others. The images and videos circulated on social media of antisocial behaviour at some sites, such as Crawfordsburn and Helen’s Bay, were of great concern to me and, I am sure, my Executive colleagues.

Messaging was issued encouraging social and environmental responsibilities during these difficult times, but, unfortunately, some people are hard to get through to.

With over 7·3 million visits per annum to the estate managed by my Department, it is, unfortunately, inevitable that some level of antisocial behaviour will occur periodically. To prevent antisocial behaviour from occurring, my staff monitor sites through regular routine patrols, which, in combination with visitor feedback and reports, allow for appropriate action to be taken where issues may be arising. Information is fed back to the PSNI as necessary to help to target problem sites. I would like to praise my officials for dealing with such issues in circumstances that are often difficult and challenging and, in particular, for dealing with the large volume of litter left behind in preparing those sites for public use.

David Hilditch (DUP, East Antrim)

I concur with much of what the Minister has outlined on the activities that are going on. The sites have opened up, and, for good reasons of exercise and mental health, they are being well used by a potential new audience. Does the Minister see a way forward to working with other Departments to potentially further develop the amenity sites so that people coming into the area put them to good use rather than for anything else?

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

Absolutely. We have been engaging with local authorities, and I was recently up in south Tyrone to open a park in that area. Excellent work has been done by the local council. Hillsborough Forest park, for example, is now the responsibility of the local authority there, and it has spent a lot of money ensuring that the paths are all suitable for people with disabilities and for families with children in prams and so forth. That is excellent work, and we want to do more of that. We want to continue to work with local authorities and others to develop our parks, to develop our great outdoors and to encourage people to go out and enjoy the wonderful facilities and assets that we have here in Northern Ireland. I suppose that people are probably not going on holidays this year, so staycations will be all the more important. Therefore, properly monitoring and providing the appropriate facilities for the public to go and enjoy days out will be ever more important.

Sean Lynch (Sinn Féin, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

7. Mr Lynch asked the Minister of Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs whether he will change the arrangements for funding environmental non-governmental organisations, from funding in arrears to prime funding, with the aim of making funding more stable and beneficial for these organisations. (AQO 458/17-22)

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

The environment fund multi-year strategic strand supports the delivery of priority environmental outcomes across Northern Ireland by environmental non-governmental organisations and councils. Funded organisations have always been able to request quarterly payment in advance where they have identified a need for this. To assist with the impacts of COVID-19, grant recipients were issued with emails in May, reminding them of this option and asking them whether they wish to seek any amendments to their current 2020-21 environment fund grant.

Sean Lynch (Sinn Féin, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

Like all groups, Minister, during COVID-19, NGOs have been struggling with cash flow. What other means has the Minister taken to assist environmental NGOs, not just in the current crisis but to make financial support more certain going forward?

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

We have 23 organisations funded under the multi-year strategic strand, and they have been offered funding totalling just over £2·2 million in 2020-21. Additional in-year funding may be offered to these organisations if additional budget becomes available later in the year. We also have a capital environment challenge fund competition, and it is for £650,000. So, close to £3 million of support is being offered to these organisations, which is of great assistance to them in the work that they do.

Gerry Kelly (Sinn Féin, Belfast North)

8. Mr G Kelly asked the Minister of Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs whether he is engaging with the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs on inserting a clause into the Environment Bill 2019-21, to make clear that these provisions are temporary pending Assembly legislation setting out local environmental protections. (AQO 459/17-22)

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

The Environment Bill, alongside existing environmental legislation, provides a basis for continued environmental protection and improvement in Northern Ireland. Making such protection temporary or contingent upon something that the Assembly may or may not agree at an unspecified point in the future in the challenging circumstances that we face at the moment is not, I believe, the best way to safeguard the environment. I appreciate that some people may have proposals that differ from what is in the Bill. If these are put forward, I will be happy to consider them in the future, and the Assembly will be free to make whatever changes it sees fit. However, if the Bill does not go forward, the result will be a loss of existing environmental safeguards.

Gerry Kelly (Sinn Féin, Belfast North)

The Minister has gone into what I was going to ask him. Will he commit to bringing to the Assembly an environment Bill that will build on existing environmental protections?

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

The first issue is to get the current Environment Bill through and to secure environmental protections. Thereafter, it is for either me or another Member of the Assembly to bring forward further legislation, as and when required, that can enhance our support for having good environmental practice in Northern Ireland.

Dolores Kelly (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Upper Bann)

9. Mrs D Kelly asked the Minister of Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs how many cases of environmental crime are under investigation by his Department. (AQO 460/17-22)

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

My Department's Northern Ireland Environment Agency (NIEA) has 413 reportable active investigations into alleged environmental offending. The cases are all at various stages of consideration and cover purported waste, water and natural environment criminality.

Dolores Kelly (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Upper Bann)

Thank you, Minister. How many of those investigations will meet the test for prosecution? If and when people are prosecuted, do you believe that the punishment fits the crime and serves as an exemplar to others not to indulge in such behaviour?

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

There is a series of means of dealing with cases. Some will involve the issuing of warning letters. Some will involve automatic fines from the NIEA. Some will involve seizing property, equipment and so on. Some cases will go to court. When the NIEA takes someone to court, it always seeks to recover costs. The fine is a matter for the judge sitting on the day. We encourage judges to implement fines that reflect the nature of the event. The public very often do not believe that that has been the case. It is a matter for the judiciary, however.

William Irwin (DUP, Newry and Armagh)

10. Mr Irwin asked the Minister of Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs to outline the role of local farmers in carbon sequestration. (AQO 461/17-22)

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

Although agricultural is currently the largest source of greenhouse gas (GHG) emissions in the Northern Ireland inventory, the farmed landscape also contains important sinks for carbon in soils, peatlands, forestry, hedgerows and farm trees. The ability of our farmed landscape to sequester carbon dioxide from the atmosphere and store carbon in soils and vegetation places farmers, as our primary land managers, at the forefront of efforts to offset local GHG emissions and contribute to the UK's net-zero-by-2050 ambition.

Alongside their vital role in producing nutritious food, farmers can play a crucial role in further enhancing carbon stocks by proactively adopting practices that conserve our pastures and increase farm woodland and hedgerows; by maintaining and restoring our peatlands; and by applying only nutrients that meet the crops' needs. My Department will continue to assist farmers to adopt low-carbon farming practices through scientific research, knowledge transfer and farm support schemes.

Among the body of scientific research is work to account more accurately for the amount of carbon stored and sequestered in our grassland soils. Emerging evidence indicates that managed grasslands continue to sequester carbon after 47 years and that sequestration rates are enhanced where cattle slurry is applied, which is a common practice on farms in Northern Ireland.

The College of Agriculture, Food and Rural Enterprise (CAFRE) is delivering advice to farmers through various channels, including the new environmental business development groups programme, which focuses on sustainable farm systems and helps farmers identify carbon-reduction measures and how to increase their farm's carbon sequestration.

Forest Service is leading on the Forests for our Future programme, which aims to create 9,000 hectares of new woodland by 2030. It plans to open a new, stand-alone small woodland grant scheme to help farmers integrate woodland on their farms. Moreover, the environmental farming scheme supports carbon-friendly practices, including maintaining and establishing native woodland, hedgerows, agroforestry and peatland restoration. I am confident that farmers will continue to participate positively in those initiatives and help put sustainability at the heart of our living, working, active landscape.

William Irwin (DUP, Newry and Armagh)

I thank the Minister for his responses. I am sure that he will agree with me that farmers work tirelessly to improve our environment.

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

There are many opportunities to which farmers are applying themselves. We need to work to ensure that we can continue to improve farm practices, which have changed dramatically over the last 40 years. I believe that there will be significant changes going forward. However, the farming community are up for those changes.

Karen Mullan (Sinn Féin, Foyle)

11. Ms Mullan asked the Minister of Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs whether he will expand the size and scope of awards from the Environment Fund to allow for more environmental non-governmental organisations and smaller environmental charities to benefit financially. (AQO 462/17-22)

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

The Environment Fund strategic strand supports the delivery of priority environmental outcomes across Northern Ireland. The strategic strand is a three- to four-year programme that began in 2019-2020. Its scope cannot be widened. Additional Environment Fund challenge fund competitions may be operated throughout the year to support environmental priorities being delivered by not-for-profit organisations and councils.

Karen Mullan (Sinn Féin, Foyle)

Environmental NGOs have found it difficult to make ends meet during this period. Like other charities and NGOs, they have lost income from donations in other areas. Will the Minister tailor support to meet the needs of NGOs of different sizes and types?

Edwin Poots (DUP, Lagan Valley)

We have been engaging with the environmental NGO sector and recognise the challenges that it is facing as a consequence of COVID-19, such as loss of income and staff and volunteer shortages. We have engaged with other Departments and the UK Administrations to understand the wider impacts of COVID-19 on the environmental sector. The sector is making substantial use of general COVID funding provisions, especially the furlough arrangement. The Department has commented on the proposed charity fund. The Department is not currently considering an additional COVID fund, but that will be kept under review throughout the year.

Roy Beggs (UUP, East Antrim)

Members, we are ahead of schedule. It is my intention to allow supplementary questions following the remaining questions for oral answer if any Members wish to indicate.

Chris Lyttle (Alliance, Belfast East)

12. Mr Lyttle asked the Minister of Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs what action he is taking to address spikes in COVID-19 infection rates in people working in the agri-food sector, particularly in meat processing and packaging. (AQO 463/17-22)