Northern Ireland Assembly, 20 April 2021

305 contributions from 57 members. The official report.

Ministerial Statements

Alex Maskey (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

I have received notice from the Minister of Finance that he wishes to make a statement. Before I call the Minister, I remind Members in the Chamber that, in light of social distancing being observed by the parties, the Speaker's ruling that Members must be in the Chamber to hear a statement if they wish to ask a question has been relaxed. Members who are participating remotely must also make sure that their name is on the speaking list if they wish to be called. Members who are present in the Chamber must do that by rising in their place as well as by notifying the Business Office or the Speaker's Table directly. I remind Members to be concise in asking their questions as this is not an opportunity for actual debate. I also remind Members that, in accordance with long-established procedure, points of order are not normally taken during a statement or the question period thereafter.

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

Members will be aware of the additional funding allocations that were made since the 2020-21 January monitoring round. I advised the Assembly of those by written ministerial statement, and I undertook to provide an oral statement, once all further funding allocations were made, to allow questions to be asked.

At the conclusion of the January monitoring round, unallocated funding of £346·4 million resource, £28·3 million capital and £55·7 million financial transactions capital (FTC) remained. Ministers were asked to come forward with spending proposals to use that funding. As a result of that work, further allocations were agreed at four points since the January monitoring round.

Departments also took the opportunity to surrender reduced requirements for reallocation in those financial exercises. Details of the reduced requirements notified and allocations made at each of those points were appended to my written ministerial statements and have been included again in the tables to this statement for completeness.

The final tranche of allocations was agreed on 25 March. While it is unusual to allocate funding at that late stage in the financial year, Members will appreciate that it was an unusual financial situation as a result of COVID, especially with the drip-feed of funding from London.

By the conclusion of January monitoring, the Executive had already allocated over £3 billion for COVID support and public services in 2020-21. Since January monitoring and taking account of additional funding provided by the Treasury, the Executive allocated a further £634 million, including £175 million for health PPE; £10·4 million for higher education student support; £12·4 million to extend the business support scheme and the large tourism and hospitality business support scheme; and £35·4 million to support a pay increase for teachers. A further £27·3 million was provided for student hardship and £25 million for the £500 payment to health workers.

My Department has received £231·6 million. That is not the figure in the statement, which was corrected just before I came to the Chamber. I apologise for the wrong figure being in the statement, and an amended statement will be sent to Members. The actual figure that we received was £231·6 million. That includes £51 million to extend the localised restrictions support scheme (LRSS) in view of the continued restrictions.

As result of the late announcements from the British Government, the Executive had a significant amount of money to spend in the last quarter of the financial year. I encouraged Departments to bid for that money, but I also developed contingency plans in case funding was at risk of being surrendered to the Treasury.

Once again, Land and Property Services (LPS) stepped up to develop three grant schemes for businesses. The total cost of those schemes is estimated at £177·9 million resource DEL. That funding will sustain many businesses and the workers whom they employ.

Those are just some of the more notable allocations made since January monitoring, and full details of all allocations are in the tables accompanying the statement.

By the end of the financial year, the Executive allocated all available resource DEL funding. All spending proposals brought forward by Departments to provide COVID support to individuals and businesses since the conclusion of January monitoring were met in full.

Unfortunately, £55·3 million of financial transactions capital remains unallocated, and, while we can carry forward some FTC to 2021-22, it is again inevitable that some of that loan capital will be lost.

Due to the late surrender of capital funding by Departments, there remains £0·4 million unallocated in capital DEL. However, that is a small amount, which we will be able to carry forward to next year, provided that Departments do not return excessive end-year underspends. With the exception of the FTC lending, that position should mean that no funding will be lost to the Executive. However, that is dependent on Departments spending the allocations that they have been provided with.

Steve Aiken (UUP, South Antrim)

I thank the Minister for his oral statement and for previous written ministerial statements and correspondence to the Committee in respect of the 2020-21 allocations. I think that the Committee — looking around me, most of its members are here — will welcome the fact that all the resources and most of the capital for 2020-21 appear to have been spent before the end of the financial year.

Members will, I think, also welcome the targeted support for the health service in extra PPE and, particularly, the bonus award for our much-valued and important staff; for our teaching professionals, who have done an equally outstanding job; and for the significant sums made available to hard-pressed local businesses as we emerge from the pandemic and start to tackle the economic consequences of COVID-19. I particularly note the £231·6 million, Minister, and thank you for making the correction before the House.

It has been difficult for Departments to spend those large quantities of money in relatively short timescales while ensuring appropriate governance and robust adherence to the rules. The extent to which it has been successful is not yet entirely clear and will continue to be scrutinised by all the Statutory Committees. Will the Minister clarify the total amount of resource and capital that he expects to be carried forward from 2020-21 to 2021-22, assuming that Departments meet their commitments?

From the Minister's written statements on the 2020-21 allocations and the 2021-22 Budget, it would appear that there is still no explicit provision for the victims' pension scheme, better known as the Troubles permanent disablement payment scheme. The actuary's report shows that the cost would be £19 million in 2021-22, rising to perhaps £70 million in subsequent years. Can the Minister explain how these costs will be funded, given that the courts have ruled that the Executive are obliged to make the relevant provisions?

I would like to make a few remarks as the Ulster Unionist Party's finance spokesperson, particularly on the victims' pension scheme.

Alex Maskey (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

I remind the Member that this period is for questions to the Minister.

Steve Aiken (UUP, South Antrim)

It is a question, Mr Speaker. I am sure that you will grant me this short indulgence.

There are indications that there is the potential for top-slicing the various Departments' budgets. Our concern is that, as per a commitment in New Decade, New Approach (NDNA), the Health budget is supposed to be ring-fenced. By my calculations, a considerable amount, maybe as much as between £35 million and £40 million, would be taken out of the Health budget. Bearing in mind that we are trying to get out of COVID, and particularly the implications that it has had for waiting lists, I would like the Minister to state whether that is the proposed course of action that he is likely to take.

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

I thank the Chair for his comments and questions. The normal Budget exchange scheme allows us to carry over a proportion of money at the end of the year: up to about £85·8 million resource DEL, £2·8 million ring-fenced resource DEL, £3·4 million student loan impairment, £22·3 million capital DEL and £29·2 million financial transactions capital. We also got permission, because we had a very late allocation from Treasury, to carry over until the next financial year a further £238 million non-ring-fenced resource DEL, £75 million capital DEL and £14 million financial transactions capital.

The Budget provides £6·7 million to TEO for the implementation costs of the victims' payment scheme. As the Member is aware, the First Minister, the deputy First Minister, the Justice Minister and I have given an undertaking that the costs of the scheme will be met this year. Of course, the Executive's position is that those costs should be met by the British Government under their own statement of funding policy. We intend to continue that discussion with the British Government to ensure that they step up and meet those costs. I will engage with Treasury in the time ahead.

The Member referred to top-slicing Departments' budgets. That will be the outcome if the British Government refuse to honour their statement of funding policy and pay for the scheme that they devised and legislated for, which is outside what the parties agreed at Stormont House. If we end up in a situation where the Government refuse to provide some support to us to pay for the victims' pension scheme, the only alternative that the Executive will have to meet the payments is to take the money off Departments on a pro rata basis. That is certainly not where we want to go, because it pits the provision of vital public services against the needs of victims. This is not the space that any of us wanted to be in. It is the consequence of a Government deciding at the last minute, under pressure from its own Back-Benchers, to increase substantially the victims' pension scheme that the parties agreed at Stormont House and to heap the costs of meeting their policy and legislation on to the Executive.

We intend to continue to have that discussion. Top-slicing Departments' budgets would be the last resort. It is certainly not anywhere that the Executive want or intend to be.

Alex Maskey (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

I remind Members to be concise in asking their questions. We have quite a number of Members who want to ask questions.

Paul Frew (DUP, North Antrim)

I applaud the Minister's statement. I applaud the efforts made by the Minister and the Department over the course of this very difficult year. I also applaud the Chairman's fine speech.

The Minister talked about the mistake in his written statement. I hope that it was a typo because, if not, it seems that we have lost over £20 million somewhere. Maybe the Minister can clarify how that mistake happened.

The Minister talked about £51 million to extend the LRSS scheme but clarified for the House that that is only £51 million of £230-odd million. Will he outline what other factors and spends are contained within that amount?

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

First, we checked the statement's figures against the table's figures. We continued to check them right up to the last number of minutes before I came down.

We realised that there was a miscalculation in the statement rather than in the tables. I have corrected it in the House, and we will send an amended statement round to ensure that Members are aware of that.

The £51 million was a carry-over. We knew that we were spending out in this financial year, but we also knew that the effect of COVID and the need for LRSS support would go into the new financial year and would, obviously, still be paid out and will be until at least the latter end of May. We wanted to ensure that we had money to continue that carry-over and, of course, for the COVID restrictions business support scheme (CRBSS), which the Department for the Economy will administer as well, and to ensure that money was retained there. Of course, a huge amount of LRSS money was paid out in the last financial year. That was, if you like, the buffer to ensure that, as we went into the new financial year and restrictions were still in place, we were able to continue to pay that out.

Maolíosa McHugh (Sinn Féin, West Tyrone)

Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as a ráiteas. I thank the Minister for his statement. As he stated, resource money has been fully allocated. Is he confident that it will be fully spent by all Departments?

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

Our objective was to ensure that it was allocated, and it sometimes is. As the Chair and Deputy Chair acknowledged, it was a significant challenge to ensure that the additional £3·3 billion was spent out on top of the budgets that we had last year. It came in a haphazard fashion, which made that complicated. The lockdown restrictions changed and eased, and, then, they changed and went from lockdowns in council areas to a full lockdown of the Six Counties. It was a complicated process to try to get through. Nonetheless, we have allocated all available COVID-19 funding and have been assessing the position with regard to spending that right up until the last number of weeks of the financial year. I am confident that all Ministers who bid for that money have been making all efforts to ensure that it is spent. We will assess that as part of the provisional out-turn later this year. Therefore, I do not anticipate handing any funding back. We still have some headroom in the normal Budget exchange scheme to carry over resource DEL, should that be required. We had conversations with Departments when they bid for money late in the year to ensure that they could spend that out. We expect that to be the case.

Matthew O'Toole (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast South)

I thank the Minister for coming to the House to update us. Further to the previous question, I obviously welcome the fact that resource allocations have been made in full. On FTC, it looks as though around £55 million will have to be handed back. Can the Minister clarify that? Earlier in the financial year, he and others talked about improving the use of FTC by Departments. We know that it has been a long-standing challenge. How is that work progressing? Is there a particular strand of work to make civil servants do better in spending that out, particularly as we come up to what will, hopefully, be a multi-year spending review from the Treasury later this year?

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

There is a provision to carry over some FTC, so it will not be the full figure of £55 million. I think that there is a figure of £29·2 million under the Budget exchange scheme that can be carried forward under FTC. Therefore, £55 million minus that figure is the amount that would be surrendered to Treasury. As the Member knows, financial transactions capital comes with a set of conditions attached and restrictions on how it can be spent. Therefore, it is not a straightforward matter of spending out capital money.

We encouraged Departments to come forward in the latter part of the year. Indeed, a number of Departments did so. Education and Infrastructure were looking at schemes. The Health Department looked at schemes that just did not make it. One area where we had sought to use it most related to the changeover arrangements in the Housing Executive. It came late in the year. Obviously, everything that Departments were doing was knocked sideways by the response to the pandemic. Our ambitions at the start of the year did not get the time and space to be fully developed. The Member is right: if we go into a multi-annual-Budget situation, we would have a better handle on it. I believe that there was a better approach to FTC this year than, perhaps, in previous years. We want that to improve and continue, because the amount that is available to us and the payback for Departments are fairly favourable.

There are strict parameters around how it can be spent, over what lifespan it can be spent and what assets it can be spent on, but it is an improving picture. If we get more space and time and move to a multi-annual budget, we will have a much better approach to spending out FTC.

Andrew Muir (Alliance, North Down)

I thank the Minister for his statement. In the 2020-21 financial year, a significant amount of money was spent on non-domestic rate relief. For a number of sectors, that has been carried forward into this financial year. Over the past number of weeks, a number of businesses have contacted me with concerns about what will happen in April next year without a reform of our rating system. What actions is the Minister taking to ensure that our non-domestic rating system is reformed in this financial year so that people do not hit a cliff edge with their rates bills?

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

There has already been significant action taken. That has probably been missed in the course of all the rates holidays and rate relief, which I am glad that we have been able to extend for a full year, meaning that those businesses will have two full years without paying rates. Over the past year, I have carried out frequent engagements with businesses and business organisations, and that was one of their big asks. We were able to deliver on that, which has been gratefully received. That masked the fact, however, that there was effectively an 18% reduction in non-domestic rates in last year's Budget. That was a very significant reduction.

We continue to look at bringing forward revaluation exercises to make sure that there is no gap or huge change, instead of leaving them sitting for a number of years. We are therefore turning around revaluation exercises much quicker. We will continue to engage with businesses, and if LPS can get back to doing what it does, which is managing the rates rather being the grant-giving agency that it has ended up being for most of the past year and will continue to be in the short to medium term ahead, we will be able to have a sensible discussion with business sectors in the time ahead to try to get a better outcome on rates for everyone.

Paul Givan (DUP, Lagan Valley)

My question follows on from the question about the ending of support mechanisms and concerns the £51 million to extend the LRSS. The hospitality industry has raised concerns with me that, as businesses are allowed to reopen, they will not be viable until the social-distancing restrictions of 2 metres are gone. For how long can the Executive continue to provide financial support to the hospitality industry and other sectors that will be impacted on until the social-distancing requirement is removed?

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

The LRSS and probably the Department for the Economy's COVID restrictions business support scheme are governed by health regulations. That means that they can continue to be paid only if businesses are closed or very severely impacted on. For instance, we continue to pay retail businesses when they can offer click and collect and to pay hospitality businesses even though some outdoor opening will be allowed not this weekend but the weekend after. We will continue to pay those supports until all hospitality can open. We recognise that we are only in the middle phase of moving towards reopening, so there will still be mitigations and restrictions around how many people are allowed in premises and how those premises can do business, but those payments are tied to health regulations, which means that there is no basis for paying them out once premises reopen.

In response to the previous question, we will continue with the rates holiday for a full year, through to next April. That is of huge benefit to tourism and hospitality, and to retail in particular. We recognise that businesses will continue to struggle. That is why, as part of the COVID money for next year, I funded in full the bid from the Minister for the Economy for the economic recovery package. As a consequence, I hope to see some support going to the high street, as well as to tourism and hospitality.

We do not have anything like the amount of COVID money that we had last year. We are trying to continue providing support as best we can, but, next year, we will have a standstill Budget, with a limited amount of COVID money compared with last year. We will still try to give what support we can, but that will definitely happen in the context of much less generous financial circumstances.

Jemma Dolan (Sinn Féin, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

I thank the Minister for his statement. I appreciate that this might be outside his remit, so I understand if he does not have the answer. Is there an update on the £25 million that is allocated for the £500 payment for health workers?

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

We made that funding available for the Health Minister's bid. He then asked us to engage with Treasury and DWP in London to see whether that would be taxed and whether, at the lower end, people would lose benefits as a consequence of the payment.

We were told that that would be case and that HMRC was treating it as a gift and would tax it, so we provided additional funding to cover that to make sure that people got the £500. That is our contribution, if you like, and the Health Department is then responsible for paying out. The update would need to come from the Health Minister.

Philip McGuigan (Sinn Féin, North Antrim)

I thank the Minister for the statement and providing the updated information. As other members of the Finance Committee have done, I commend the Minister and the Department for ensuring that the total resource budget was fully allocated to Departments.

Minister, in your statement, you say that there were four opportunities after January monitoring to look at spending and that Departments took the opportunity to surrender reduced requirements for reallocation in those four exercises. Can you confirm the total amount of reduced requirements surrendered by Departments since January?

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

I think that it is in the table. I am not sure that I have the exact figure to hand. It is broken down across a number of statements. With the four opportunities, it was, if you like, an open-ended opportunity for Departments to bid for money and to surrender money that they were not going to spend. For instance, in the statement on 2 February, there was £7·9 million, and then, in my last written statement in March, there was £7·2 million. Sorry, that was capital. I can get the total figure for the Member, but I think that there was £10 million and £21 million over the course of those four statements.

The Member asked about opportunities. We did some allocations, sent in a written statement and said at that time that we would do a complete statement and a question-and-answer session when that exercise was completed. There were a number of surrenders, and that meant that we had to try to reallocate as we went along. It was an open-ended process for Departments to bid, so, when we got a significant number of bids and allocated the funding, we did a written statement. We did that right up until the last allocation, which was the one that we took to try, as a contingency plan, to use up what was left at that stage. That was on 25 March. The statements are there. It is a matter of adding each figure from the tables in each of the four statements and calculating the total.

Pat Catney (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Lagan Valley)

Thank you, Minister, for your statement. We have had a number of reports to the Finance Committee about how the end-of-year surge spending is not value for money and how some of that spending may go to the wrong projects. What are you and your Department doing to prevent that end-of-year spending and promote a better balance of expenditure throughout the year?

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

That is the perennial question. If we were in a multi-annual Budget situation aligned to a Programme for Government, we would get planned spending over a number of years. That is where we want to be. That is where, we were told over the last year, we would be following the comprehensive spending review, but that is not in our hands. The time frame of the budgets and the funding allocation itself are not in our hands, so you end up having to respond. In an annual Budget setting, the biggest sin for a Finance Minister or an Executive is not spending out. It is not ideal.

I would not say that we are spending on the wrong projects, but it does not necessarily align with long-term spending plans. It would be much more efficient if we were in a multi-annual Budget situation and could plan over that time and allocate accordingly to make sure that there is a more strategic approach to the spending of public funds than, perhaps, a rush at the end of the year to spend what is left. It is not ideal. The bigger sin, I suppose, is if we end up not spending it and giving it back, so it has to be spent on projects that, although they are not wrong, would perhaps not be a priority if we were in a much broader strategic framework. It is more about the things that are ready to go and are can be spent on.

Of course, that is the situation that we want to be in, and we will continue to press Treasury to get us to that situation. We expected, right up until the year of last year, that that is where we would be, and we had very short notice that we were into a one-year Budget again with a flat-cash situation. We will continue to engage with Treasury on that, and I know from speaking to my counterparts in Scotland and Wales that we are all on the same script in pressing for that outcome.

Mike Nesbitt (UUP, Strangford)

Returning to financial transactions capital, I sense that the Minister shares the frustration that the money is flowing in the wrong direction, namely, largely back to Treasury. Minister, further to your answer to Mr O'Toole, can you explain where, you think, the fault line lies? Are you promoting this only to Executive Departments, or are you proactively targeting projects in the private and the third sectors? How many successful applications are there? Why do applications fail? Is it because of a fundamental misunderstanding of the qualifying criteria?

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

It could be a combination of those things. I do not think that there was, over the last number of years —. There was a much bigger return of financial transactions capital last year. It is a complex process, and therefore Departments try, in the first instance, to get straightforward capital for the projects that they want to do. When I was pressing Departments and Ministers over the last number of months to access this, some came forward with schemes, but some of them did not fit. That maybe points to Departments being not fully sure. The assets themselves have to have a time span of at least 25 years, so it cannot be spent on short-term repair work or short-term facilities. They have to be facilities with that type of time frame. It is much more restrictive than a straightforward bid for capital. I suppose that it is easier for most Departments to go for the easier source rather than to apply for it.

It is something that we have improved on. Even with all of the priority attached to the pandemic in every Department and the bandwidth that has been taken up with that response, there is an improvement. We will continue to press for a full understanding of how it can be accessed, what it can be spent on and what Departments need to come forward with. The rates are favourable. It is an asset, if you like — pardon the pun — that is available to the Executive. We have done better this year with it, but we are still surrendering some of it. We do not want to be in a position where we are not utilising things that are available to us.

Robin Newton (DUP, Belfast East)

I thank the Minister for his statement this morning. It is important to get the clarity that Members around the Chamber have sought.

Regarding the £175 million for health PPE, we all know the history of PPE orders being placed, orders not being placed, orders that were in the pipeline and orders that never arrived. We know the history of that, but £175 million is a substantial amount of money. In the Minister's or his Department's allocation of those contracts, how can he encourage local companies to make the bids for that £175 million, rather than the PPE being purchased from China or other sources?

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

The Member makes a very valid point in relation to that. There are many lessons from the pandemic, and one of them is about security of the supply chain. The idea that "Cheap is best" means that you end up on the other side of the world trying to procure critical materials for the health service. Then, if there is a pandemic situation or some other unforeseen situation, we are left in a position where we do not have access to things that our population very badly needs.

Regarding the £175 million figure, Treasury made an allowance that, if money was being spent on PPE, it could be allocated in the last financial year but spent in this financial year. That is why we were able to allocate a significant sum to that.

We have been having this conversation in the Procurement Board, which I chair, but a further conversation needs to be had around the Executive table. Where companies stepped up and proved that they could provide us with critical supply and that supply was only an hour's journey by road away from us rather than thousands of miles away on the other side of the world, those companies need certainty that that sort of contract will continue. If they are going to repurpose manufacturing capability, they need certainty that there will be contracts to be bid for and won in the future. The procurement side in the Health Department should engage with the manufacturing sector, perhaps through the Department for the Economy and Invest and others, to say, "OK, the cost of those products may be more here, but, first, there are ethical issues in terms of their supply. Are all our supply chains on the other side of the world meeting the ethical requirements that we have and should continue to have? Is there security of supply?".

We need to reconsider whether cheap is king in all this. I hope that that conversation takes place; it needs to take place fairly soon, because if we want those people to stay in the frame so that they can step up and repurpose manufacturing, they need to have some sense that there is business for them in it.

Caoimhe Archibald (Sinn Féin, East Londonderry)

I thank the Minister for his statement. I want to return to the LRSS, because it has been an absolute lifeline for businesses, along with the rates holiday. You said that it will continue for businesses until they open. Are you keeping that under review, and are you encouraging the Economy Minister to look at other supports that might be needed to help businesses when we reopen?

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

As I said, they are governed by the regulations, which mean that if businesses can open up, the regulations do not permit them to continue to be paid beyond that, although all businesses will be subject to some kind of social-distancing restrictions.

We have declared that LRSS will continue to be paid. I am not certain what the position is with CRBSS; that might be a question for your Committee to ask the Department about. As you are aware, we fully funded the economic recovery package that the Economy Minister brought forward, and we will continue to support businesses through the rate relief for the rest of this financial year to next April. We are trying our best to continue to support them, albeit with much less resource than we had last year. We have fully funded that economic recovery package, and I hope that that has a beneficial effect for businesses as they begin to open up.

Stewart Dickson (Alliance, East Antrim)

Minister, what discussions have you had with the Treasury, particularly with the Chancellor, who, according to some media outlets, has done a disappearing act since he produced his Budget? What discussions have you had about rebuilding our economy and our community and about how the various schemes will be tapered as a consequence of the reopening of services?

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

Officials continue to have that discussion, and I hope to get over there in the next week or two to have a discussion, certainly with the Chief Secretary to the Treasury if not with the Chancellor. You will know that the extension of the furlough scheme, which we pressed for a number of times, has now gone to the end of the summer, albeit, I think, with an increased employer contribution over the summer months.

There are some discussions about whether Treasury will try to amend the loan scheme slightly, I think. I have seen some reference to a sort of a pay-as-you-earn (PAYE) thing, so rather than businesses being expected to pay back loans, if they can demonstrate that they can afford to pay back more as they begin to do more business, there will be some flexibility. We will continue to press the case for that, because the furlough scheme in particular was critical, not only to businesses, but to workers.

While we hope to have a good summer, we are a long way from being clear of the pandemic and its impacts. I have spoken to banks and other institutions, and there is expectation that maybe there will be a glut of spending when things open up but that that could taper off again in the autumn. I think that that is when businesses will face the real crunch. While we will be doing all that we can in the time ahead, as I said in the responses to the statement, clearly they will need continued supports, so we will continue that conversation with the Treasury and the Government.

Órlaithí Flynn (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

I thank the Minister for his statement and his answers thus far. Will the Minister indicate when businesses can expect to be paid through the scheme that was recently announced on the COVID business support grants?

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

One element of that is the £50,000 grant for businesses that were above the net asset value (NAV) level last year and did not get that support. I think that some businesses started to receive that today. The other elements of that scheme will be done in the coming weeks. There are some further regulations that need to be sorted out on them, but we will do those as quickly as we can.

Justin McNulty (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Newry and Armagh)

I thank the Minister for his statement and his answers thus far. Following on from the previous question and the £178 million that has been announced for three schemes, will you, Minister, give us greater detail on when you expect those payments to be made? When will the application process open for the schemes that require an application?

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

As I said in response to the previous question, the £50,000 scheme for businesses that did not get the £10,000 or £25,000 grant last year because they were too big has opened. I think that some of those are being paid out today. Regulations for the schemes need to go through the Finance Committee and be passed in the House to do that, and the portal needs to be up and working for the ones with an application. The intention is to have those done in the coming days or, at most, weeks and get the support paid out to those businesses as quickly as we possibly can.

Jim Allister (Traditional Unionist Voice, North Antrim)

Given the rush to allocate and spend the further Treasury largesse before the end of the financial year, it is understandable that mistakes will be made. If funds are recouped from organisations that should not have received them, what is the destiny of those funds? Can they be retained? Do they have to be returned? How much headroom do you have in your carry-over?

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

It is a separate exercise. You are right: the more schemes are done at pace, the more potential there is, human nature and systems being what they are, for mistakes to be made. The LRSS paid out hundreds of millions — I think that it was £290 million — and I think that 1·6% or 1·7% was identified as having been paid in error. That is remarkable, given the amount of money that was paid out and the haste with which those schemes were put in place. The Member is correct: there are attempts to recoup some of that. For some who received an allocation incorrectly but are due another allocation — the people who will benefit from some of the schemes that I just referred to did not receive LRSS — we can deduct the amount that they owe us from what they will get. It is complex and there is a different set of circumstances in each.

My understanding is that, because we have allocated that funding, we can retain it, but I will confirm that with the Member. The focus has been on ensuring that errors are corrected.

There is flexibility to have a working arrangement with those who have to pay back. There is also flexibility across other schemes to make sure that, if someone was paid out under our scheme and received money from another Department, they will be paid minus the amount they have already received so that we do not have to recover money from them directly. There is a range of measures. I know that LPS was in front of the Committee last week. I am not sure what level of discussion there was about that, but it is probably worth LPS coming back to the Committee, at some stage in the not-too-distant future, to brief you on that. A number of measures are in place so that we can work with other Departments to make sure that, if further moneys are due to them, they can be deducted from the payments. Some of it will be direct clawback. The question then arises of whether we can retain the money. My understanding is that we can, but, if that is incorrect, I will be happy to inform the Member.

Gerry Carroll (People Before Profit Alliance, Belfast West)

Thanks to the Minister for his statement. Many people will be left scratching their head as the Executive once again struggle to spend money. At any time, that would be disastrous, but, when food bank usage has soared, workers are facing pay freezes and cuts, and child poverty is soaring, it is almost insulting. What would the Minister say to those who wonder whether the Executive are up to the task of meeting economic and societal problems if they cannot even spend the money that they currently have?

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

The whole purpose of the statement was to say that we had spent the money that we currently have. I am not sure whether the Member was listening to the start of the statement. He should not underestimate what we managed to do. I am not blowing my own trumpet; it was departmental officials who managed to do it. We ensured that not only was the Budget that we were allocated last year spent but the £3·3 billion that we received on top of that was allocated. A lot of that money came at a very late stage with a lack of notice to us. It came after the summer, when we were told that that was all that we were getting for the year; we then received a further four tranches of money.

I get the political points that the Member makes about people who are struggling; I absolutely get that. The three priorities for this were protecting the health service, supporting vulnerable people and supporting businesses and workers, and that is what we have allocated the money for. He says that we cannot spend the money, but we have just spent the whole time for the statement speaking about how we have done so, against the odds and with warnings of doom from very many Members over the last three or four months that we would not spend it. We have managed to do that, and he should at least acknowledge that. I certainly concur with his points about people who are struggling, and we need to continue to provide support there.

Alex Maskey (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

That concludes questions on the statement. Members, please take your ease before the next item of business. Thank you.

(Mr Principal Deputy Speaker [Mr Stalford] in the Chair)

Christopher Stalford (DUP, Belfast South)

I have received notification from the Minister of Health, Mr Robin Swann, that he wishes to make a statement.

Robin Swann (UUP, North Antrim)

Members will recall that, in December 2019, the Department of Health published the outcomes report relating to the initial recall of approximately 2,500 neurology patients who had been discharged from the care of consultant neurologist Dr Michael Watt and whose treatment was reviewed by the Belfast Health and Social Care Trust. At that time, the Department provided a commitment that it would carefully consider anyone who had previously been seen by Dr Watt and discharged and then recall any key groups of people who, based on the advice of the consultant neurology team, required a review. A second recall was announced in October 2018, involving a further 1,044 patients.

I can announce that, today, the Department of Health has published the 'Neurology Recall: Cohort 2 Activity and Outcomes Report'. The patient group concerned comprises two subgroups. The first includes patients in high-risk groups who had been seen by the consultant between 2012 and 2017 but who were discharged back to the care of their GP. That group included patients who had been prescribed anti-epileptic drugs, immunosuppressants and disease-modifying therapies used to treat epilepsy and MS. The second group included patients of the consultant who had been referred back to the neurology service for review by their GP.

In line with cohort 1, the main purpose of the second recall was to ensure that patients were receiving the correct treatment. However, the clinicians conducting the review were also asked to consider whether the diagnosis was secure, whether proper management was in place and whether prescribing was appropriate. The purpose of the recall was to see and assess individuals to ensure that they were receiving the care and treatment that they required. It was not intended to provide a definitive assessment of Dr Watt's practice.

The cohort 2 outcomes report shows that, across both subgroups, of the 927 patients of Dr Watt who were assessed by the reviewing clinicians, 702 had a diagnosis that was considered to be secure and 181 had a diagnosis that was considered "not secure", while, for 44 patients, there was uncertainty in respect of whether the previous diagnosis was secure.

It is important to note that a diagnosis that is considered to be not secure does not automatically equate to a misdiagnosis. Other factors need to be considered. The patients involved have been advised of the outcome of their individual case. Although a higher proportion of the cohort 2 patients were assessed as having a secure diagnosis than for cohort 1, there remained approximately one fifth of patients with an insecure diagnosis. The responses to the other questions relating to management plans and prescribing were broadly similar.

I put on record my appreciation for the work undertaken by the clinical and administrative staff as part of the recall. Important, too, are the neurology charities, the Patient and Client Council and the more informal patient support groups that contributed to this process.

I return to the report. In the context that a significant proportion of the cohort 2 patients had an insecure diagnosis, the advice from the reviewing consultants was that it would be appropriate also to review an additional cohort of Dr Watt’s patients, cohort 3. These are patients who were discharged between 1996 and 2012 and who meet certain criteria, alongside a number of patients who had not been reviewed as young stroke patients in the previous recall cohort, due to the agreed criteria around age. The Belfast Trust, overseen by the Health and Social Care Board (HSCB) and the Department, undertook an initial stratification exercise to assess which patients would require a recall consultation with a consultant neurologist.

The 276 patients who need a consultation include those who had a continuing prescription of higher-risk medication — for example, epilepsy medication — prescribed by Dr Watt and who had not been subsequently seen by another consultant neurologist. Of the 276 patients, 209 are from the Belfast Health and Social Care Trust; 57 are from the Ulster Independent Clinic; and 10 are from Hillsborough Private Clinic. This process will commence imminently and conclude in a few months. In addition, for a further 495 patients who have been identified as currently being prescribed low-risk anti-platelet medication, the trust will require additional information from their GP to establish whether a further consultation is needed, and that process will also commence imminently.

In light of the ongoing pandemic, all initial recall consultations will take place virtually, with the reviewing consultant making a clinical decision at that stage on the requirement for a further face-to-face consultation. Affected patients have been contacted by the trust by letter to advise them of the arrangements and offer support where required, and a patient helpline — 0800 980 1100 — is available for them in this regard.

First, I thank the patients and families involved in cohorts 1 and 2. Their cooperation and patience in this most difficult of circumstances is greatly appreciated. The process will have been enormously frustrating and, at times, distressing. I met patients and families affected by the recall in October last year, and I reiterated my apology to them for how they have been let down by the health and social care (HSC) system. I do so again here today. Whilst this report is statistical in nature, it deals with individuals, their families and their experiences. Many will have had their confidence in our health service shaken, and I remain committed to helping to restore it.

I acknowledge the delay in the publication of the outcomes report and any additional concerns that this may have caused. Whilst the cohort 2 recall and related outcomes were largely finalised last year, the pandemic, understandably, significantly affected the trust’s progress on the identification, validation and preparatory work relating to cohort 3. The perspective of and impact on patients have been foremost in my mind in the timing of this announcement. It would not be acceptable, for instance, to announce that there is to be a third cohort but not advise patients whether they are to be involved.

In announcing a further recall, I also acknowledge the fact that more patients are affected. It is deeply regrettable that any of our patients had that experience. When I consider the total number of patients involved, I find it even more so. I therefore unreservedly apologise to those patients and to their families for any upset and distress that it has caused.

As Members will know, in order to address these issues, an independent public inquiry is investigating the circumstances that led to the neurology recall. In December 2020, I converted that inquiry into a statutory public inquiry to ensure that it could complete its work with unfettered access to all relevant information. The inquiry team has advised that it is at an advanced stage in fulfilling the remit of the terms of reference. I thank team members for their ongoing work, and I look forward to receiving their report in due course.

I also take the opportunity to update Members on a number of work streams that are connected with the neurology recall. The first relates to an epidural blood-patch review undertaken by the Belfast Trust, which is subject to independent verification by the Royal College of Physicians. The review focused on 66 patients who were not part of cohorts 1 or 2 because they had since been reviewed by a different consultant neurologist.

The initial review has been completed, and it has established that 46 patients had care that was unsatisfactory and fell below a standard that we expect. Additionally, the review established that, for 45 patients, there is no clinical evidence to support a decision that a blood-patch procedure was required. An interim report by the Royal College of Physicians to validate the trust’s findings independently has indicated that their findings are generally consistent. The trust has contacted individual patients and offered them support. I am sure that all Members will agree that these are very concerning findings. I take this opportunity to apologise publicly to the patients for that and for the distress that it will have caused.

A second issue relates to redress. While the main focus over the past three years has been to ensure that Dr Watt's patients are receiving the correct treatment, it was also recognised that those who had suffered harm due to negligent treatment were entitled to compensation. The primary purpose of a redress scheme is to provide compensatory payments earlier than under normal arrangements for clinical negligence, with less distress to patients and lower legal costs. Options for a redress scheme were developed during 2019 and considered in early 2020. Further work on a streamlined process for neurology patients was commissioned but subsequently suspended owing to the need to divert staff resources to manage the response to COVID-19. That work has restarted in recent weeks, and I expect to receive an update on the latest position from the project board in June. I have specifically asked the project board to focus on an approach that, as far as possible, provides early resolution for patients who wish to avail themselves of it. In the meantime, all claims received to date in respect of the care provided by the consultant neurologist are progressing as quickly as possible under the standard arrangements for health service litigation claims.

Members will also be aware that, throughout the process, the Regulation and Quality Improvement Authority (RQIA) has been commissioned to undertake a number of reviews. I will first provide an update on the expert review of deceased patients. That review involves the clinical case notes of those of Dr Watt's patients who died in the 10 years prior to the neurology recall. The review was commissioned in 2018. It has been significantly delayed, initially owing to legal issues surrounding the sharing of sensitive information and more recently owing to the pandemic’s impact on resources. The preparatory phase was completed in November 2020, with the formal adoption of operational protocols and a legal framework to ensure access to the relevant deceased records.

Phase 2 will commence imminently and involve 45 patient records, including the records of those deceased patients whose family members have approached the RQIA with concerns about their care and the records of patients who were included in the Belfast Trust's cohort 1 neurology recall but unfortunately died before either attending or completing their reassessment. The RQIA has commissioned the Royal College of Physicians to establish an expert review panel of experienced consultants from outside Northern Ireland to review the records selected for phase 2 and, in addition, to consider any information shared with the RQIA by the families of the deceased patients.

On completion of the review of the records selected for phase 2, the royal college will provide the RQIA with a report on its findings, and those will then be shared with the Department of Health and published on the RQIA's website. I expect phase 2 to be completed towards the end of the summer. A decision on the roll-out of future phases of the review will be made following the completion of phase 2.

In addition to the deceased patients' review, the RQIA has undertaken two further reviews as part of the response to the neurology recall. 'Review of Governance of Outpatients Services' was published in February 2020 and the review of governance arrangements in independent hospitals and hospices in Northern Ireland has been completed, with final preparations being made to support its publication in the coming weeks.

Another piece of work that emanated from the events that led to the patient recall was the Department of Health's review of neurology services. The review commenced in December 2018 and produced an interim report in October 2019 that set out the case for change. Further work on the review was paused in March 2020, owing to the need to redeploy resources to respond to the pandemic. I anticipate that work restarting in earnest in the near future, with significant progress being made before the end of the year.

I will end by again thanking the patients and families who have been affected by the recall process. I acknowledge that there is a great deal of work still to do in this area, but I am confident that we have the correct structures and resources in place to complete the work and improve services for patients. I commend my statement to the Assembly.

Colm Gildernew (Sinn Féin, Fermanagh and South Tyrone)

I thank the Minister for his statement and for meeting the Deputy Chair of the Committee and me earlier about it.

The neurology inquiry has again revealed more examples of a lack of transparency and deficits in governance arrangements and accountability in the health service. People's lives have been impacted on. Indeed, some people's lives have been devastated as a result of this scandal. I have met families and know that the lack of answers has been hugely traumatic and caused great anxiety.

What does the neurology inquiry and scandal tell us about how patients have been treated in the past by trusts? More importantly, what does it tell us about what lessons we need to learn and what changes we need to make and implement in future?

Robin Swann (UUP, North Antrim)

I thank the Chair of the Committee for his comments about the work that needs to be done. In the statement, I indicated that the Belfast Trust, the RQIA and other bodies are already doing a specific piece of work on neurology.

Furthermore, a consultation was launched recently about the duty of candour. It will start to reshape and reassess some of the psychology in our health services across Northern Ireland. There is a realisation of the need to change, an indication of a willingness to change and an ability to change. Among all the professionals in our health service that I have met, that I talk to and that I deal with, there is a desire at their core to do right by their patients. This piece of work, along with the neurology inquiry, the urology inquiry, the inquiry into Muckamore and the work on the duty of candour all serve to reinforce and put structures around the need for us to ensure that our patients come into a health service that we can all be proud of: a health service that we all feel confident, safe and secure entering. That is what every patient should feel, and that is what the reviews that have been undertaken as a result of this piece of work and others will be able to achieve.

Pam Cameron (DUP, South Antrim)

I thank the Minister for his statement. The announcement of a cohort 3 recall is a saddening but necessary step towards ensuring patient safety for those who may have been affected under the care of Dr Watt. My thoughts are with the individuals and families involved in that horrendous experience.

The Minister mentioned a redress scheme to provide compensation to those who are entitled to it. Does he have any indication of the scale of resource required to provide redress to all those who have been affected, and when does he anticipate that such a scheme will be ready to open?

Robin Swann (UUP, North Antrim)

The project board is due to report to me in June on an all-encompassing redress scheme so that some of those acknowledgement payments could be processed quickly without the long duress that is needed because of legal requirements. A number of claims have already been put through the normal processes, which will be supported. At this point, we do not have an indication of the financial commitment because the initial cases are coming through to the project board as to what assessment can or needs to be made.

However, there is an assurance that redress payments will be paid. This was a failure of our systems, which has to be corrected. I have apologised for it here today on behalf of our service. We also need to rebuild confidence in our systems, and that is why a cohort 3 is necessary. We need to make sure that anybody who was misdiagnosed during that period can receive a review from another consultant, so that they get not just the financial but the medical and psychological support that they require.

Cara Hunter (Social Democratic and Labour Party, East Londonderry)

I thank the Minister for his statement. The experience has been very distressing for a large number of patients and their families. Recognising that it is an extremely traumatic experience for them, what mental health support is available for those patients?

Robin Swann (UUP, North Antrim)

I thank the Member for that question. The issue that she raises was made very clear to me when I met the families and the patients involved towards the end of last year. That is why I encourage anyone who still feels that they need to reach out for help to contact the patient helpline: that is what it is there for. I remind the Member that the helpline number, which is being supported and facilitated by the trust, is 0800 980 1100. Furthermore, the Patient and Client Council is an independent body whose services can be used by any patient or family that needs additional support.

Alan Chambers (UUP, North Down)

I welcome this extremely significant statement from the Minister today. It is important and proper that it has acknowledged that the patients and families affected are more than mere statistics. The Minister will be aware that I have spoken with him previously about a constituent's treatment for spinal fluid leakage. There was previously a suggestion from a clinician that the ongoing inquiry may have proved a barrier to the treatment being available. Will the Minister confirm that, in fact, all trusts locally are providing a blood-patch service?

Robin Swann (UUP, North Antrim)

I thank the Member: It is something that he has raised with me. I want to reassure him that I am aware of issues that have been reported about the local provision of treatment for cerebrospinal fluid (CSF) leakage. I want to be very clear about that matter. It can be a very serious and painful experience, and it is always a matter of clinical judgement as to the treatment provided, whether locally or through a referral to GB. Whilst issues around that treatment have been considered as part of the neurology inquiry, it is not accurate to say that that has halted the provision of the treatment in the health and social care system.

Where a CSF leak is clearly linked to a procedure such as epidural spinal anaesthesia during childbirth, it will be managed conservatively in the first instance. However, if that is unsuccessful, all HSC trusts provide a blood-patch service, which is normally performed by an obstetrician and an anaesthesiologist. Other types of leaks, where the cause is not apparent, are looked at on an individual basis, and, where clinically appropriate and the expertise exists, a small number of cases are treated in Northern Ireland. However, more complex cases need to be managed by a multidisciplinary team for CSF pressure disorders.

Christopher Stalford (DUP, Belfast South)

Before I call the next person on my list, I have noticed that there are significantly more people in the Chamber than are on my list. I will call the names out. If you are not on my list, please, rise, and I will add your name. Thus far, I have: Ms Bradshaw, Mr Buckley, Ms Ní Chuilín, Ms Flynn, Mr O'Toole, Mr O'Dowd, Ms Kimmins, Mr Allister and Mr Carroll. If you are in the Chamber and your name has not been called, please, rise in your place, and I will add your name to the list.

Paula Bradshaw (Alliance, Belfast South)

Apologies, I was not here for the start of the statement.

Minister, thank you for your statement today. Of all the patients I have spoken to over the past few years about this matter, the most striking case was that of a woman who had been bed-bound for several years because she had been misdiagnosed and was on the wrong medication. When she raised that with Dr Watt, he said, "Sure, we are sorting you now". She, and many others, will be devastated that there has been very little progress made with the redress scheme today. I appreciate that we are coming through a pandemic, and, therefore, I urge you to seek to subcontract that work to one of the large consultancy companies. The Deputy Chair of the Health Committee, Pam Cameron has covered that matter.

I want to raise the issue of the epidural blood-patch review. What safeguards are in place to ensure that such an issue does not arise again?

Robin Swann (UUP, North Antrim)

I thank the Member. As I said in my answer to the Deputy Chair, the project board for the redress scheme has restarted again. I do not intend to subcontract that work at this stage as that would involve restarting all that work, and that would further delay any completion of what needs to come forward.

The epidural blood-patch review focused on 66 patients who were not part of cohort 1 or 2 and had a procedure under the care of Dr Watt. The findings of the internal review indicate that 46 of the 66 patients reviewed indicated that their care was unsatisfactory and fell below standards. For 45 patients, there was no clinical evidence that a blood-patch procedure was required. The initial internal review by the Belfast Trust has been subject to an independent quality assurance process by the Royal College of Physicians, and that work is concluding. However, the college has been able to provide an interim update that there are findings are generally consistent with those of the Belfast Trust. The trust has contacted all its relevant patients and offered ongoing support.

Jonathan Buckley (DUP, Upper Bann)

I thank the Minister for the statement. A third recall will cause further distress to many patients across Northern Ireland, but, indeed, it is necessary. Within cohort 2, a subgroup of patients was assessed, and 75% were secure and 19·5% were not secure. Can the Minister elaborate on the other factors that must be considered, as is mentioned in the statement? There is also reference made to 5% where there is uncertainty. Can the Minister elaborate on stage 2 of that process? What is the follow-up process when uncertainties like that are found?

Robin Swann (UUP, North Antrim)

I thank the Member for that question. Those deemed to be uncertain will go through a further assessment process to see whether they fall into the other two categories. There are conditions that need to be taken into consideration other than the clinical diagnosis, the assessment of the patient for medication prescribed or not prescribed or the alternative treatments that could have been or were offered at that time. There is a further piece of work that goes on around those factors to make sure that all the prevailing circumstances to any diagnosis or reassessment of a diagnosis are taken into consideration.

Carál Ní Chuilín (Sinn Féin, Belfast North)

Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as ucht a ráitis ar maidin. I thank the Minister for his statement this morning. I can tell from his tone that this is just another debacle that he and his Department have to fix. I am sure that he will appreciate that, for many people, it is stolen years. Their fertility has been disrupted; their intimate personal relationships are impacted, and that is only a couple of examples.

Can the Minister provide an update, particularly on the impact of the investigation by the regulator into the consultant who was appointed — Dr El-Naggar — to reassess patients affected by the Dr Watt scandal?

I am not being facetious, but can people now trust the trusts? To be frank, there is a series of reviews, and the public inquiry will start sometime, and I would appreciate the Minister providing clarification on that. While it was not on his watch when it started, it needs to be on his watch when it is concluded.

Robin Swann (UUP, North Antrim)

I thank the Member. She knows me well enough to know that this is not work that I want to hide or brush under the carpet. I make the statement today to try to engender the trust in our health service that we all need to be part of. Those medical professions need our support to give reassurance to the public that, yes, things have gone wrong but the House is doing what it can to correct that and to support the people who have been failed. Our trusts are also doing what they can to correct that and to support the people who have been failed. There are a number of reviews and inquiries. The Member will be well aware that I have launched three public inquiries since coming into office in regard to what, I feel, needs to be brought out into the open, because that is how we engender trust in our health service again. The people working in it, as the Member knows, are genuine and good people who, at their core, do their best for everyone. Have there been failings and mistakes in the past? Yes. Have they been on my watch or before my watch? That is not relevant. It is about how we correct them, get them right and re-engender trust in our health service.

The Member has raised the matter of the consultant with me before in the House. I am aware of a hearing by the General Medical Council (GMC) regarding the consultant who assisted the neurology patient recall review in 2018. The hearing relates to a case in a previous post in England. My Department has received assurance from the Belfast Trust in the context of the consultant's work as part of the neurology recall. It has advised that the matter has not identified a concern in the specific area of work that the consultant was asked to undertake as part of the recall or the ongoing follow-up of patients in his care. The consultant's recall-related work was done as part of a wider multidisciplinary team with the review of clinical findings being part of a key process. I understand that this may concern the patients involved in the recall, but I assure them that ongoing safety remains our focus. Patients and families impacted by the neurology recall will continue to be supported by the Belfast Trust. Any patient affected by the recall who has concerns can avail themselves of the neurology advice line. I have been given that reassurance by the Belfast Trust, which knows that this has to be got right and wants to ensure that it is done right. It is in its interest to get to the bottom of this to make sure that it does not happen again.

Órlaithí Flynn (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

I thank the Minister for the statement to the House. The Minister mentioned that all the affected patients had been contacted by letter by the trust around making arrangements, providing support and all the rest. Can the Minister be sure that everyone has already received those letters? Is that the case, or may it be that some people are still falling through the gaps? What can the Department do to rectify that?

Robin Swann (UUP, North Antrim)

I thank the Member for her comment. We wanted to ensure that this was managed, as much as possible, so that people who are waiting to see if they will be part of cohort 3 did not hear me announce the review of cohort 2 without us having done the preparatory work. Those letters have been issued and will arrive with people over the next few days. If people are still concerned and think that maybe they should be part of that cohort, they can use that contact number through the Belfast Trust to seek reassurance. They can also contact the Patient and Client Council, which is leading on the engagement and support work for us. It is meeting the family groups and charity groups, while the statement is being made, to re-engender trust in the work that has been done and that will be done under cohort 3. That is to make sure that nobody hears about this in a way that they should not and that the information, which is highly sensitive, highly emotional and highly stressful, is managed as sensitively as it can be.

Matthew O'Toole (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast South)

I thank the Minister for a full update to the Assembly. Like others, I have dealt with patients or, in my case, families of patients who have suffered because of the actions of Mr Watt, so I welcome a lot of what has been announced today.

Of course, dealing with the cohorts and the further recalls will be critical, as is the broader review of neurology services. At the end of the process, we need to know that neurology services will be fit for purpose going forward.

I note that the statement refers to the review being paused in March 2020, but it does not give clarity. You have stated that you think that significant progress will be made before the end of the year, but it would be helpful if you could give a commitment on time. In a sense, the most important thing going forward is clarity. When do you anticipate publishing the final review?

Robin Swann (UUP, North Antrim)

I do not have a firm date. If I had, I would have put it in the statement so that Members knew.

I reaffirm our support for the current neurology team and the neurology services that we provide. They are working in a highly stressful situation at this minute in time because of the public focus on this work, especially today, when the recall of cohort 3 and the review of cohort 2 have been announced. They are a group of professionals who are picking up many pieces, putting people's lives back together and still seeing their patients as effectively as they can. This has had a knock-on effect on our neurology services in Northern Ireland, and it will take work, input and strong leadership to bring the review about and to bring in people to fill the vacant posts in that service.

Roy Beggs (UUP, East Antrim)

I thank the Minister for his statement. Regrettably, he has had to announce further reviews of former patients of Dr Watt.

The recall runs the obvious risk of raising the anxieties and concerns felt by patients and their families. Will the Minister provide assurance that the necessary level of effective and sensitive support will be provided to those who might need it in this situation?

Robin Swann (UUP, North Antrim)

Again, that is critical. When I met families and previous patients of Mr Watt, one of the main issues raised was the need for that support.

I appreciate the requirement for psychological support for neurology recall patients, given the distress that can be caused by the process. Access to psychological support has been put in place by the Belfast Trust to support patients who were affected by the neurology recall. That additional service, which has been provided to support patients affected by the recall, is not available to others. The Belfast Trust continues to support patients who attend the neurology service and those who were included in the neurology recall process. Members will be aware of the significant demand for psychological support across all areas of our healthcare system. There are long waiting lists, and the pandemic has made that much more challenging. That support is there through the Belfast Trust and the helpline.

John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin, Upper Bann)

Minister, it is shocking that you have had to come to the House again to update it on further developments in this case. I have raised with you before my concerns about the amount of power that consultants have in our health service. Undoubtedly, daily, if not hourly, consultants save people's lives or change their lives for the better. However, in any institution, when someone is deemed to be or seems to be unaccountable, mistakes will be made. Today, we have listened to a litany of mistakes and potentially huge errors that will have a detrimental impact on people's lives as a result of the work of one man — one man.

When will the public inquiry start, and what input will affected patients have into its terms of reference?

Robin Swann (UUP, North Antrim)

I thank the Member for that question. Part of the work being done, even in the consultation that has been launched on the duty of candour, is looking at something that starts to change the psychology and the mental aspect of how our health service works.

As I said, I converted Brett Lockhart's work into a full-scale public inquiry. The basis for needing that conversion to statutory public inquiry was primarily to ensure that the Independent Neurology Inquiry team had access to all relevant information so that it could draw its conclusions, make recommendations to my Department and support a timely outcome for the report. The inquiry team is at an advanced stage of fulfilling its terms of reference, and the decision to convert to a full public inquiry has not adversely impacted on the work or timescales of the inquiry. I reiterate my thanks to the chair and the Independent Neurology Inquiry team for all their work to date. That work has been ongoing, albeit on a full independent public inquiry footing only after I converted it towards the end of last year.

Liz Kimmins (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

The statement mentions that a high number of epidural blood-patch patients had unsatisfactory care, and the Royal College of Physicians has confirmed that that amounts to almost 70% of those patients. What support is available to those patients? Has the trust offered them a full apology?

Robin Swann (UUP, North Antrim)

The trust has engaged with and is reviewing the independent quality assurance process by the Royal College of Physicians, which is concluding its work. The college has provided its interim update, and the findings are generally consistent with what was found initially by the Belfast Trust. It is necessary for the Belfast Trust to apologise to those patients, but I will also apologise. I apologise as Minister of Health on behalf of the Belfast Trust and on behalf of the service for the disservice that those patients received at the behest or at the hands of Mr Watt.

Jim Allister (Traditional Unionist Voice, North Antrim)

Ultimately, this pretty awful saga will result in a considerable draw on the public purse through the redress scheme and the private litigation that will undoubtedly be pursued. What redress will there be for the public purse? We know that Dr Watt has left the service of the Belfast Trust: is he on a full pension, paid by the public?

Robin Swann (UUP, North Antrim)

I do not have that detail to hand to answer the Member, but I will answer him in writing.

Gerry Carroll (People Before Profit Alliance, Belfast West)

I offer my sympathy and thoughts to all the people affected by the Dr Watt inquiry. My understanding is that some of the people affected by the recall have been told that, if they suffer from a functional neurological disorder, they may have to seek services in England. Will the Minister confirm whether that is the case? How many people will be affected by that? Will one of the lines of inquiry include looking at pharmaceutical companies and their practices on pushing particular drugs, especially for epilepsy and other neurological issues, to doctors and patients?

Robin Swann (UUP, North Antrim)

I will need to check the terms of reference of the public inquiry and get back to the Member. We will provide whatever support we can to patients, where and when we can, as quickly as possible. If that involves some people being offered medical procedures or medical supports in other parts of the UK, we will do that. We will support them while they do that, because it is important that we get as many people as possible seen as quickly as possible to make right what was done wrong.

Christopher Stalford (DUP, Belfast South)

No other Members are indicating that they wish to ask a question. That concludes questions on the statement from the Minister of Health. I ask Members to take their ease for a few moments while we make a change at the top Table.

(Mr Speaker in the Chair)

Private Members' Business

Doug Beattie (UUP, Upper Bann)

I beg to move

That this Assembly rejects the harmful practice widely referred to as conversion therapy; notes that the UK Government National LGBT Survey in 2018 reported that 2% of respondents had undergone conversion therapy, with a further 5% having been offered it; acknowledges the damage that this practice causes to the mental health of those who are subjected to it; further acknowledges that this practice has been widely rejected by medical professionals; declares that it is fundamentally wrong to view our LGBTQ community as requiring a fix or cure; and calls on the Minister for Communities to commit to bringing forward legislation before the end of the current Assembly mandate to ban conversion therapy in all its forms.

Alex Maskey (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

The Business Committee has agreed to allow up to one and a half hours for the debate. The proposer of the motion will have 10 minutes in which to propose and 10 minutes in which to make a winding-up speech. One amendment has been selected and is published on the Marshalled List.

Doug Beattie (UUP, Upper Bann)

I thank the Minister for Communities for being in attendance and look forward to hearing her response to the debate. Although this is an Ulster Unionist Party motion, I accept that a lot of parties have fed into the debate on the issue, not least the Alliance Party and Paula Bradshaw, who only a number of weeks ago brought forward a petition asking for a ban on conversion therapy. Everybody therefore has a vested interest.

I have always been told that, when you open a debate, you should say something profound to engage everybody in the room. I do not have anything profound to say, but here is what I will say: I am a straight man. I was born straight, and there is no fix or cure for me or any therapy that will make me a gay man. Why on earth therefore would we say that a gay man was not born that way? Why would we say that a gay man can be fixed or cured? Why would we say that there is a therapy to change a gay man into a straight man? There is not. It is ludicrous. If you believe that being gay, lesbian, bisexual, trans or gender-diverse is a lifestyle choice, there is nothing that I can say to you today that will change your mind. If that is what you believe, that is what you believe.

Conversion therapy is humiliating and harmful, and having listened to testimonies of individuals who have undergone conversion therapy, it is clear that it has far-reaching negative mental impacts. The continual promotion that somebody is broken or wrong leads them to feel that they are worthless, and extremes lead to suicide. The British Psychological Society for Northern Ireland chairperson said that conversion therapies are unethical and unsupported by psychological evidence and that her society is committed to ending the practice. She said that sexual orientation and gender identities are not mental health disorders. However, those subjected to exclusion, stigma and prejudice may well experience mental health issues as a result. She went on to say that it is important that the public are made aware of the risk and the harms of conversion therapies.

The UN independent expert on protection against violence and discrimination based on sexual orientation and gender identity said:

"actions to subject lesbians, gay, bisexual, trans or gender-diverse persons to practices of ‘conversion therapy’ are by their very nature degrading, inhuman and cruel and create a significant risk of torture."

"A significant risk of torture", "inhuman", "cruel": those are words that should shake us all to the core when we think that some of our people here in Northern Ireland — our brothers and our sisters, our sons and our daughters, our teachers, our policeman, our nurses and our doctors — are subjected, or could be subjected, to that. It should shake us all, yet it is happening here in Northern Ireland.

We have a charity, with charitable status and everything that goes with that status, conducting conversion therapies here in Northern Ireland. It is part-funded by the International Federation for Therapeutic and Counselling Choice, which says that witnessing domestic violence or suffering sexual abuse can make you gay. My word. So, if you are subjected to domestic violence or sexual abuse, it can make you gay.

I have to say to everybody here and to anybody listening that this needs to be stopped, and I will keep saying that. Those are inhumane, cruel practices that are detrimental to people's mental health.

We have issues of faith, and I do not want to get into a theological debate with anybody in the Chamber, as that would not be helpful. However, last year, just under 400 leaders of the world's main religions called for an end to conversion therapy, and every main political party in the Chamber has stated that it wants to ban conversion therapy.

Many have tried to frame this debate as an attempt to stifle religious freedom. That is not the case. The right to preach, pray or counsel somebody who seeks support should not be diminished. The intent of the motion is not to limit anybody's faith or belief or their ability to express them. I do not believe that private prayer about sexual identity, conducted in a supportive, affirming way, is conversion therapy, unless it is subversive and harmful. I do not believe that pastoral care is about changing someone's gender identity, unless it is deliberately targeting the young or the vulnerable with the intent to do so. The word "intent" is incredibly important. If the intent is to change somebody's sexual orientation or identity, it is wrong. It is trying to convert.

Jim Allister (Traditional Unionist Voice, North Antrim)

Will the Member give way?

Doug Beattie (UUP, Upper Bann)

No, I am sorry, Jim, for time reasons, I will not give way, but I will listen to what you have to say.

A person of faith should support banning conversion therapy not in spite of their faith but because of it. The evangelical group Left Side Up said:

"To engage in activity to alter the sexual orientation or gender identity of a person is not an expression of religious freedom, but an abuse of power."

It also stated:

"There are compelling Christian reasons to celebrate the wonderful rainbow of human diversity."

That is an evangelical group. I understand that people have religious views, and I respect them. I have always respected them, and I will not denigrate them in any way.

I cannot support the amendment, because removing the line:

"it is fundamentally wrong to view our LGBTQ community as requiring a fix or cure"

promotes the idea that they do need a fix and do need a cure. That may not have been the intention, but that is what it looks like, that is what it feels like and that is what our LGBTQ community sees it as being. I cannot support it, and I will not support it. However, I ask respectfully, and I say this respectfully, with no political mischief to my friends in the DUP: do not move that harmful amendment. Do not move it. I will not play political mischief with you; I will applaud your moral courage. The amendment is damaging to the people of Northern Ireland. It is damaging to a community that has long been damaged.

A young female member of the LGBTQ community once said:

"It won’t always be like this. It’s going to get better."

I never knew Lyra McKee, and she will never see the "better" that she foresaw. As we remember Lyra McKee two years after her murder, it is incumbent on all of us to reach inside ourselves to change this practice of conversion therapy. Nobody is tackling anybody's faith, but if it is coercive and controlling, we have to stop it. I believe in the promotion and protection of all spiritual beliefs, unless they are coercive in nature and directed deliberately at the LGBTQ community to create a sense that they need that fix or cure.

We can all play with words today, and I hope that we can all look at each other at the end of this and say that we have been respectful to each other. I want to be respectful to everybody in this room. It does not matter what any of us say here today, because the reality for me will be what the Minister has to say and how she takes this forward. Conversion therapy needs to be banned, it needs to be banned now and it needs to be banned before the end of this mandate.

Please express your opinions, but do not paint this as something that it is not. This is not about attacking anybody's religious freedoms. This is about banning a harmful practice that is damaging our young and old alike.

Pam Cameron (DUP, South Antrim)

I beg to move the following amendment:

Leave out all after "professionals" and insert: “recognises that legitimate religious activities, such as preaching, prayer and pastoral support, do not constitute conversion therapy, cannot be defined as such and must be protected; and calls on the Minister for Communities to consult widely on the way ahead, including relevant legislative options, to ban the practice of conversion therapy.”

Alex Maskey (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

Thank you. You will have 10 minutes in which to propose and five minutes in which to make a winding-up speech. All other Members who are called to speak will have five minutes.

Pam Cameron (DUP, South Antrim)

At the outset, I thank the Members who tabled the motion and state that I am in full support of a ban on the dangerous practices of conversion therapy in Northern Ireland. My party believes that discrimination against someone on the basis of their sexual orientation is wrong. We are all created equal and should be treated as such. No one should ever be forced into treatment for being gay.

I share the grave concerns of many Members at the various abhorrent practices that have been promoted under the umbrella of conversion therapy in the past and those that sadly still exist. Those have included electroconvulsive therapy, enforced isolation, aversion therapy, food deprivation, hormone therapy and hypnotherapy. Those and some other forms of so-called conversion therapy should never be allowed to harm our loved ones, friends and neighbours ever again.

As a party, we are firmly opposed to those forms of coercion and manipulation, because they do not respect human dignity. As a result, we are supportive of an appropriate response to prohibiting unsafe and coercive practices, including through legislation. However, we are concerned about the absence of any clear or evidence-based definition of conversion therapy in the motion.

There is a risk that such ambiguity, if translated into legislation, would criminalise legitimate activities or conversations. We simply want to avoid unintended and unjustified consequences. Therefore, we need to nail down what activities we seek to deal with not just to safeguard activities that cannot be reasonably be deemed to be harmful or coercive but to give the best protection to our LGBT community.

Some Members disagree with our amendment because they want the ban to cover religious settings. Others object because they do not feel that the motion covers religious settings in the first place. That highlights the ambiguity that exists without clear definition. The motion does not account for a complex legal landscape of competing rights, including freedom of religion and freedom of speech. It was for those very reasons that legislation in Germany was restricted to treatments in healthcare settings and for minors. That is why our amendment encourages the Minister to consult widely with affected stakeholders on plans for legislation. We want legislation to be ambitious and effective, but that cannot happen with unclear and sweeping definitions of conversion therapy. It is also important that we consider other dangerous, unregulated and unqualified pseudoscientific forms of treatment, counselling and healthcare for all manner of things, many of which have no foundation in any religious beliefs.

Let me be clear: I do not believe that members of our LGBT community should be fixed or cured. I might not agree, but I recognise that there are those with deeply held religious beliefs on sexuality who have differing opinions on how someone should live their life. The DUP wants to see progress on banning conversion therapy. Those appalling practices that still pervade our society today must be defined and made illegal if they are not already. We are committed to not just any legislation to ban conversion therapy but the best legislation — legislation that is fair and evidence-based. We ask Members to support the amendment. Good law is clear law. Effective law is law with clearly defined scope.

Sinéad Ennis (Sinn Féin, South Down)

I support the motion and oppose the amendment tabled by the DUP. I am conscious that there will be people outside the Chamber watching the debate who have experience of the trauma of this kind of pseudoscientific malpractice. I hope that we all bear that in mind and are sensitive to it in our contributions.

It is hard to know where to start with a concept like this, which is so obviously morally and ethically wrong. It is so indefensible that it is really hard to get your head around the fact that it still happens here today. I will start with the term itself: "conversion therapy". The word "therapy" suggests something healing, holistic and restorative, so let us look at the therapeutic effects of attempts to change a person's sexual orientation. A recent 'Spotlight' investigation of conversion therapy reported that, in 2018, a UK-wide survey found that over half of those who had experience of attempts to change their sexual orientation had subsequently suffered mental health issues and one fifth had attempted suicide.

A UN expert recently reported to the Human Rights Council that conversion therapy inflicts "severe pain and suffering" on lesbian, gay, bisexual, trans and gender-diverse persons, often resulting in "psychological and physical damage" that is "long-lasting". When asked about their experience of conversion or "pastoral therapy", as it is sometimes called, participants in the discredited practice said that they were made to feel so degraded and ashamed and that their self-loathing became so great as a result of what they were being told by the people delivering the therapy that they wanted to end their life. If there are organisations in this jurisdiction exposing our citizens to behaviour that is so destructive that it makes them feel that they want to end their life, the Assembly needs to come down hard on them and work to eradicate the practice completely.

I thank the hundreds of people who have contacted me over recent weeks to show their support for a ban on conversion therapy. I do not think that I have been lobbied as strongly on any other issue. I want to make it clear that Sinn Féin unequivocally condemns the practice of conversion therapy and what it stands for. It is deeply damaging to the mental health and emotional well-being of the LGBTQ+ community as a whole. We are resolute in our opposition to homophobia and discrimination in all its forms.

Despite DUP attempts to suggest otherwise, it is fundamentally wrong to view the LGBT community as requiring a fix or a cure. That is why the Sinn Féin Communities Minister, Deirdre Hargey, is bringing forward legislation to ban conversion therapy in every way in which it masks itself. Like any new legislation, it will take time. I am sure that my colleague will, of course, want to ensure that no loopholes are made available by any changing of names or definitions. It is also important that those affected by conversion therapy and the wider LGBTQ+ community have their say when the legislation goes out to consultation. I have no doubt that they will do that.

As I said, Sinn Féin will support the motion as it stands but will not support the amendment. I urge other Members to reject the amendment. The toxic mix of heteronormative conservatism combined with religious fundamentalism that permeates the DUP is given voice in its attempt to amend the motion. The amendment seeks to provide cover for quacks and clerics to continue to damage and harm our LGBTQ+ citizens. Again, I urge Members to reject that fossilised thinking by rejecting the amendment.

I will finish by saying that I am sure that there are many eyes and ears on us today. There may be people watching the debate who are coming to terms with their sexuality. Maybe they do not have the right support system around them, and maybe they are not given meaningful, proper sex education in their schools that reflects their feelings and sexual orientation. If you are such a person and you take nothing else from the debate today, please know this: homosexuality is normal and natural. You cannot change or control your sexuality any more than you can change or control the colour of your skin, and anyone who tells you otherwise is nothing more than a snake oil salesman. No cure is required for being yourself, and you do not need to be fixed because you are not broken.

Mark Durkan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

I want to start by saying that no one should be told that their identity — who they are as a person — is wrong or that it is something that must or even can be cured. It needs to be said emphatically and unequivocally that sexual orientation is not a sin to be confessed. The freedom to be oneself is something that most of us take for granted, yet, for some gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender individuals, being themselves can be the most frightening step that they will ever take.

The practice of conversion therapy is not only abhorrent but barbaric and must be consigned to the past. The untold damage and trauma that it has caused people here will never truly be known. However, thanks to the bravery of victims — yes, victims — who have come forward to share their harrowing experience, a light has been shone on just how widespread the practice is here, with 7% of LGBT+ people having been offered or having undergone that deeply distressing practice. That abuse should not be tolerated, let alone provided for, under current legislation.

For too long, the LGBT community has been let down and has had to fight for the rights that are afforded to others and an equal place in society. While we have come some way in advancing LGBT rights, the fight is far from over. The Executive committed to a sexual orientation strategy in 'New Decade, New Approach'. The Minister has said that legislation to outlaw conversion therapy will be a part of that. However, the LGBT community wants a swifter and separate approach. We have seen too many strategies launched to great fanfare, only to sink without a trace.

Pat Catney (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Lagan Valley)

Will the Member give way?

Mark Durkan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

Certainly.

Pat Catney (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Lagan Valley)

I am slightly embarrassed in front of those who are from the LGBT community, especially anyone who is in the Chamber, that we are debating the issue. I am 66-year-old happily married grandad: that is who I am. No one is trying to change me. Why is it right that some people out there should try to change anyone else? I have three little words: love is love.

Alex Maskey (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

The Member has an additional minute.

Mark Durkan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Foyle)

I thank the Member for his intervention. Love is, indeed, love.

Any strategy that is brought forward must focus on addressing LGBT health inequalities. Research from the Rainbow Project has shown that LGBT people are particularly vulnerable to developing mental health problems due to the homophobia, discrimination and oppression that exist in our society. It will, therefore, come as no surprise that that community is more likely to self-harm, to feel suicidal and to suffer addiction issues. Most shocking of all is the statistic that Ms Ennis quoted on the number of people who have attempted suicide. Consider those horrific statistics in the context of conversion therapy, in which organisations perpetuate the falsehood that sexual orientation can be controlled and prey on extremely vulnerable individuals.

Many victims have spoken of their struggle to accept themselves, and practices such as conversion therapy serve only to compound their feelings of self-hatred and shame. That discredited practice is completely unethical. No one should be put through that traumatic ordeal or be led to feel that they are deficient in any way. Put simply, it is abuse. The Governments here and in Westminster have not done enough to establish protections for the LGBT community. It is incumbent on us all to acknowledge and tackle all forms of discrimination in our society. We must find a way forward to protect victims and to send a clear message to practitioners that this so-called therapy is wrong. To do that, we need legislative backing in the form of an outright ban.

Some promote mental health and well-being but, in the same breath, support — well, tolerate — conversion therapy. Those viewpoints are completely incompatible. Tolerance of the latter is effectively a denial of the former, and we will oppose the amendment today. Homosexuality is not a brokenness; rather it is the system and attitudes here that are broken. I apologise to every member of the LGBT community who has been failed by our system. Every citizen should be free to live and to love without fear of shame or judgement. We need to start from the premise of understanding and to champion inclusive education in our schools to allow young people to form healthy relationships with themselves and with others. By engaging and educating, we can create a society that works for all.

The SDLP is built on foundations of equality. We fully support the motion and the ban on conversion therapy.

Andrew Muir (Alliance, North Down)

To start, I thank Doug and John for tabling today's motion. I know them as allies of the LGBT community, alongside others in the Chamber such as Carál Ní Chuilín, whom I have known for many years and who supported me when I was much younger and less grey-haired as an LGBT activist. I really appreciate them tabling today's motion, and I appreciate the work that so many have done, including my colleague Paula Bradshaw. I also thank, in particular, those who have been involved in a very successful, professional and well-organised campaign. I am impressed by the work that has been done. I speak as an Alliance Party MLA on behalf of the party. I am conscious of the need for a respectful debate, because people are watching, and the way that the debate plays out has impacts.

On Saturday, I was sorting out the books in my study, having got new shelves from a well-known furniture retailer. I found one of my books — 'Boy Erased' — which was given to me as a gift by one of my best friends, who was able to come to terms with his sexuality and with his friends and family in relation to that. I strongly recommend the book in relation to today's debate. Alongside the book, I found a postcard that was given to me in the late 1990s when I was at university in Derry. Things have moved on somewhat from then. At the top, it says, "Lesbians and gay men are". Well, we have moved on to be more inclusive than that, as the LGBT community. The postcard says that they are our daughters, sons, mothers, fathers, sisters, brothers, cousins, grandparents, uncles, aunts, in-laws, carers, cared-for, friends, work colleagues, customers and service users. That is whom we are talking about today. The issue that we are debating has a significant impact on so many people: not just my LGBT brothers and sisters but their wider families, friends and work colleagues.

I am very fortunate to have had a very inclusive upbringing, a very supportive family and a mother who is probably more liberal than I am, but I am conscious of those who have not and of the impact of this debate on them, particularly the DUP amendment tabled on Friday. That amendment has caused hurt and offence, and people have contacted me saying that they have been re-traumatised by it, particularly the desire to remove the wording about a "fix or cure". I really regret that that has happened.

Kellie Armstrong (Alliance, Strangford)

I thank the Member for giving way. Does the Member agree that it has been heartbreaking to hear, over the last week or so, from people who have been so traumatised by the amendment? It has traumatised a vast part of the community, which did not expect this to happen.

Alex Maskey (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

The Member has an extra minute.

Andrew Muir (Alliance, North Down)

Thank you, Mr Speaker. I agree with Ms Armstrong. All the amendment does is harm. The DUP needs to recognise that it is on the wrong side of history on this. The debate that we have had in recent days about the amendment has shown that society has moved on quite a lot. The idea that a ban on conversion therapy can be an attack on religious freedom is building a straw man. Any legislation that is passed by this place would have to be compliant with the European Convention on Human Rights, especially article 9. I am used to these straw men being built, especially in relation to equal marriage. We were told that the sky would fall in if we legislated for equal marriage. The reality is that people are a bit more equal and are happier in love. The sky has not fallen in.

For me, when we are debating conversion therapy, it touches the core of what is deep-rooted homophobia in our society. There is an idea that sexuality is a choice and a lifestyle. I chose to wear a bow tie today. That is a lifestyle choice; my sexuality is not. It also goes to the core of deep-rooted transphobia in our society. The reality is that it is perfectly good and normal for one man to love another man, for one woman to love another woman or for someone to fulfil their gender identity. The failure to recognise and accept that shows why we need an effective ban. We need that ban. This must not be symbolic legislation. That would be an insult and would allow the harm to continue.

A definition of conversion therapy is essential to allow that effective ban, and the Ban Conversion Therapy coalition of LGBT+ organisations has provided a recommended legal definition, which is about actions to encourage someone to erase, repress or change their sexuality or gender identity. Asking someone to repress, for example, their sexual orientation is deeply harmful. I know people to whom it has happened. I know people who suffered from the homophobia and transphobia in our society to such an extent that they took their life. We have a responsibility in this place to ensure that an effective ban is brought forward. Yes, it must be done through co-production and co-design with the LGBT community, but this Assembly mandate must end with an effective ban.

Emma Sheerin (Sinn Féin, Mid Ulster)

As has been said, Sinn Féin will support the motion and reject the amendment. I preface my remarks with thanks to the UUP Members who tabled the motion. I place on record an acknowledgement of the huge amount of work done by Micky Murray of the Alliance Party through the online petition that he started last year and, of course, the Ban Conversion Therapy alliance for its work in bringing so many people together to call out the notion that gay people need a fix or a cure. I was happy to hear from my constituents, who lobbied me on this.

It is reassuring to see such consensus across parties for the banning of this cruel and inhumane practice. Work began last year when Carál Ní Chuilín met the Justice Minister and the Health Minister in the summer. Our party is working on this in the South through Fintan Warfield's Bill of 2018. From a rights perspective, this could not be more clear: banning conversion therapy is the bare minimum. This is not even about applying the conditions for LGBTQI+ brothers and sisters to live a life with equal opportunity; this is about removing a real and visceral barrier to a full and happy life.

Under article 3 of the European Convention on Human Rights, everyone has the right to live life free from inhumane or degrading treatment, which is what those so-called therapies clearly amount to. The testimonies from people who have been subjected to conversion therapy speak for themselves. Article 8 of the ECHR allows everyone the right to a private life. Imposing your views, whatever they are, on another person's home is a contravention of that. Conversion therapy, slurs daubed on walls and violent attacks are the physical outworkings of a much deeper problem: they are symptoms of homophobia. It is that discriminatory prejudice that we really need to address.

No one is born homophobic; it is something that is conditioned by society. Like any other form of discrimination, we need to challenge homophobia when we are confronted with it. Just as institutionalised racism survived the abolition of slavery and the ending of Jim Crow, the implementation of marriage equality did not fix all the issues that LGBTQI+ people face. Telling people that you regard them as equal is important, but, unless you actually treat them as equal, you have failed. Allowing language that ostracises and others people leads to those people being ostracised and othered. That requires ownership and acknowledgement.

I note that a proponent of those therapies, who was challenged this morning on radio, claimed that homosexuality or transsexuality is a lifestyle choice, as Mr Muir referred to. When he was asked whether people should be allowed to change from heterosexual to LGBTQI+, he faltered. Of course we know why: to change who you are and who you love is not possible. We are not having this conversation about people attempting to turn gay; we all know that those in our LGBTQI+ community have fewer rights and face more challenges. Our LGBTQI+ community has had to fight hard for the realisation of its rights. In doing so, that community faced stigma, shame and ignorance. Unfortunately, that is just the thin end of the wedge. There is also discrimination in the workplace, attacks on nights out, homophobic abuse on social media and threatening catcalls on the street. When we talk about those matters, I always think of people, particularly young people, growing up in rural areas such as my own who are grappling with their sexuality and figuring out that they are gay, lesbian or trans and all of the challenges that that can bring because of a lack of resources, education, community and support. Our LGBTQI+ population is dispersed by its very nature. That is felt all the more when you live in the country.

A few weeks ago, one of our councillors — Councillor Cora Corry — and I met Mid Ulster Pride, which is a group of young people trying to establish an LGBTQI+ network in their constituency. I learned a lot from our conversation. They listed concerns that never would have occurred to me as a young person. There is an additional layer of rural isolation with which I did not have to contend when I was growing up. The motion is a step in undoing some of that harm. It is about telling members of our LGBTQI+ community that they are valued and loved just as they are. The Assembly has not always been a friendly place for people who identify as LGBTQI+. That is the only thing that requires a fix.

Carál Ní Chuilín (Sinn Féin, Belfast North)

I thank Doug and John for tabling the motion. This is a really important day in the Assembly. There has been a lot of debate, rightly or wrongly, since the motion was mentioned, as there was when Paula brought forward the petition on the issue and when Órlaithí Flynn raised it at the Health Committee. The message to me is that the issue will keep being raised while the practice exists. It needs to be banned.

No one in the House has an issue with the banning of torture. That is what conversion therapy is. I have spoken to people who have tried to be converted. What they experienced, particularly the older gentlemen, was nothing short of torture. I am the proud sister of a gay brother. I witnessed what my younger brother experienced when he grew up. My family were like many families. My father, Lord rest him, was a working-class engineer. He was certainly not politically correct, but he knew about the bullying that his youngest son went through because he was gay. My brother is happily married, but why did he have to go to London to feel included? Why did he feel that, as soon as he turned 17, he needed to get out of here?

That has happened to so many people. He was so lucky to have friends from Belfast and across the North who acted as a support mechanism for him. I spoke to some of them at his wedding and heard about some of the things that they had had to go through, which, I have to say, were and are shameful. What is even more shameful is the attempt to use religious belief to say that it is OK, when it is not.

I listened to Andrew, whom I have known for a long time. He said that he has grey hair now, and the fact that mine is not shows that I have been to the hairdresser while Andrew has not. The point of the matter, however, is that all denials of equality started in places such as this, and they need to end in places such as this. That is the only way in which we will protect people who face discrimination and bullying and will ensure that, as described in the European Convention under, as Emma said, articles 3 and 8, they have the right not to be tortured and the right to a private life. I could not help but be moved by what Andrew said on the radio this morning, and I was really proud of him. Like many people, he is saying, "When will this nonsense stop? How many more times do people have to ask to be treated fairly?".

We need to go beneath the skin of the amendment. The only way in which any of us will be taken seriously, when it comes to people's rights, entitlements and protections, is if we pass legislation to protect. In 2021, we still have people saying, "Listen, I'm not a homophobe. I'm just not convinced that your notion of conversion therapy is the same as mine". The fact that you are even saying things like that in 2021 is ridiculous. I do think that that is homophobic. I accept that some of the people with strongly held religious beliefs are not homophobes, and I take your point about being respectful, despite being really annoyed. This needs to stop, however, and it needs to stop now. The only way in which we can put an end to people being abused and being made to feel different or less human is to bring forward legislation now.

To end on a positive note, it has been a respectful debate, and it will hopefully end as a respectful debate. In 2021, strategies and legislation are still being blocked, and commitments made by Governments have not been honoured. If we are still doing that in 2021, we need to ask ourselves fundamental questions. If you say that you are for equality, show me what that looks like. We know what it looks like when you are opposed to it. It means sending people to join a long waiting list for mental health support, if they can get it. Our brothers and sisters — either they are your brothers and sisters or they are somebody else's brothers and sisters — need our support, and they need it now.

Cara Hunter (Social Democratic and Labour Party, East Londonderry)

I will start today with some direct quotations from Members and former Members from the party opposite.

Sammy Wilson, DUP:

"I don't care if they are ratepayers. As far as I am concerned they are perverts."

Thomas Buchanan, DUP, said that homosexuality is: "an abomination."

Edwin Poots, DUP:

"It is unnatural in the first instance, and abominable in the second instance."

Iris Robinson, DUP:

"Gay people are more vile than child abusers."

That last quotation is from 2005. Today, in 2021, as a young person, I am in genuine disbelief that we are here today even having to debate conversion therapy. People of the LGBT+ community need not our prayers but our respect and support.

I thank the UUP for tabling this important motion. I really am at a loss as to where to begin. Today's debate is the symptom of a very sick part of our society that believes that our LGBT friends, family and colleagues need to be cured. To be frank, I find the amendment insulting. It is a cheap tactic from the DUP, utilising religion as a veil for its evident and ardent homophobia. The idea that a young, vulnerable person who is looking for guidance on their sexuality is met with therapy is the real abomination.

As someone with a strong faith myself, I am sick and tired of religious freedoms being used as a way to think that it is in any way acceptable to reject the LGBT+ community. Get real. The motion is not about criminalising prayer; it is about limiting harm to our LGBT brothers and sisters with these unethical therapies. Religious freedoms must be questioned the moment that harm is committed, and we know, from speaking first-hand to people who have endured conversion therapy, that many have experienced hurt and rejection from people who told them, "God condemns you because of who you are and who you love". That is shocking.

Has the LGBT community not been through enough, from the historic shame of the AIDS pandemic to delay after delay in the right to marriage equality? We do not want more young people, especially those in isolated rural communities, watching us today to experience more anguish. I cannot imagine how that must feel.

Looking back at our history in NI on LGBT issues, I remember, when I was growing up, looking round the table at lunchtime and thinking that it was so strange that half my friends would be able to dream about their wedding day and getting married while the other half would not. It makes me feel ashamed that, just a few years ago, that was the reality in my home, in our home.

What a shame it is that the party across from me, led by the First Minister, wants to amend the motion to take out:

"that it is fundamentally wrong to view our LGBTQ community as requiring a fix or cure".

What message does that send to the young people in our schools who are struggling or repressing their identity? They should not be met with shame, stigma and, least of all, therapy. They should be met with love, understanding and respect. After all, is that not the Christian way? Research on the issue of family acceptance of LGBTQ youth showed that young people were eight times more likely to be suicidal, six times more likely to report high levels of depression, and three times more likely to use drugs.

I say to the DUP, and its actions today and its actions spanning decades, that using religion as a mask and a weapon to do your dirty work for you and to allow you to be freely and openly homophobic is a disgrace. To that end, as someone with a strong faith, I have to say that it is you and your mentality that are the problem, not members of the LGBT community. The SDLP strongly supports the motion and rejects wholeheartedly the DUP amendment.

Jim Allister (Traditional Unionist Voice, North Antrim)

I have no difficulty whatsoever in condemning some of the gruesome practices that, historically, were associated with what has been called conversion therapy, including the use of drug and aversion therapies. All of that was obnoxious. My problem with the motion, however, is, very simply, its deliberate obfuscation by the fact that it fails to define conversion therapy. In fact, in its very last words, it embraces the banning of:

"conversion therapy in all its forms."

What are "all its forms"? If we take seriously some of the lobbying from the LGBT community, it patently and indisputably includes religious exercises. We have all received — I know that I have — lobbying from that community making it very clear that it wants a ban not just to extend to the gruesome and the horrible practices that I have talked about but to religious exercises. They want to criminalise preaching in accordance with the sexual ethics set forth in Holy Scripture; they want to criminalise praying in accordance with the sexual ethics set forth in Holy Scripture. Where there has been legislation, as in Victoria, Australia, that is exactly what happened.

Jim Wells (DUP, South Down)

Will the Member give way?

Jim Allister (Traditional Unionist Voice, North Antrim)

Yes, I will give way.

Jim Wells (DUP, South Down)

Did the Member note this morning that a leading SDLP councillor made it very clear on 'The Nolan Show' that he wanted all forms of religious intervention to be banned and that a leading councillor from the Alliance Party on 'Talkback' made exactly the same point that all religious intervention of any kind in this field must be banned?

Jim Allister (Traditional Unionist Voice, North Antrim)

Absolutely. That is the nub of the matter. That is why I am astounded that Mr Beattie tells us that he is not in the business of suppressing religious expression and exercise but is opposed to an amendment that seeks to protect it.

A Member

Will the Member give way?

Jim Allister (Traditional Unionist Voice, North Antrim)

In a moment.

We are in a situation where it is abundantly clear from the lobby groups that advance this motion that they are in no doubt that they want to suppress and, indeed, criminalise religious activity. By their standards, that giant of Christian heritage St Paul would be a most offending criminal. Anyone who has ever read — maybe not enough have — his letter to the church at Corinth, First Corinthians chapter 6, will know that he, apparently, could readily be accused, in the terms of the LGBT community, of conversion therapy. When he referred to changes in lives and said, "such were some of you", was that not conversion therapy in the terms that are being proposed? It seems to be.

It is critical that religious practices are protected. If a minister of religion is approached by a young person or an older person who wants counsel and guidance on sexual issues because they are a person of faith or who is attracted to faith, is that minister of religion to be criminalised? There is a great phrase to the effect that the Government should not intervene between consenting adults in the bedroom. Fair enough. Now, however, there is the desire to intervene between consenting adults in the minister's counselling room because it offends thought processes by daring to uphold what is clear to anyone who holds to Christian faith as set forth in the Bible. It is sad to me that those who want, rightly, to ban conversion therapy are not prepared to stand up and accept an amendment that would put it in the right context that preserves, outside that ambit, freedom of religion. That is protected as an absolute by article 9 of the European Convention on Human Rights but would be trampled by this motion if it got the sort of legislation that embraced its terminology of "in all its forms".

Mr Speaker, thank you for the opportunity to speak. I support the amendment because it does preserve the fundamental imperative of religious freedom, and I will oppose the motion because it does not.

Alex Maskey (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

I am going to have to give four minutes to all Members who speak next, in order to give the rest of the Members who wish to speak that entitlement. I rule that there will be four minutes each with no additional time for interventions. Be aware of that. It is to ensure that we give as many as possible of the Members who are listed to speak the opportunity to do so.

Mike Nesbitt (UUP, Strangford)

First, as a member of the Policing Board, I condemn without reservation the attempted murder of a police officer overnight. The PSNI, I believe, found a viable device and dealt with it. Whoever was responsible has no place in our society in 2021.

I thank my colleague Mr Beattie for tabling this motion. Once again, he demonstrates what an asset he is, not only to the Assembly but to society, in his fairness, his inclusiveness and his compassion.

The debate works on two levels. Obviously, there is the specific level, and I accept that we need to tighten up our definition of conversion therapy, but that is not something that we will do today in a private Member's motion. We will do it when we get to legislation. I note that Sinéad Ennis confirmed that the Minister is preparing to bring forward legislation, and I look forward to hearing from the Minister later.

Not only will that legislation need to define more closely conversion therapy but it will need to address the legitimate concerns of those who believe that it will have a negative impact on worship in this country. That is not what I am about in supporting the motion. I am about protecting the vulnerable and outlawing coercive practices. Everybody who has spoken so far agrees that there are and have been coercive practices. I simply want to put in place protections that I would want for me, my family and my friends if we were being pressurised to change against our will.

Yesterday, I listened to a member of the LGBTQ+ community talk about his experience of how he was made to feel ashamed of who he is. I have met many others who, like Carál Ní Chuilín's brother, have left this little part of Planet Earth not because they wanted to but because they felt that they had to as a result of who they are and of how we treated them. That is just wrong, and I am so sorry to hear that about your brother, Carál.

The debate is about recognising that we have not done well by our LGBTQ+ brothers and sisters. It is also about acknowledging that, as Peter Lynas of the Evangelical Alliance did on the radio this morning, the Churches have not done well on occasions. That is a big statement, coming from Peter Lynas.

Most of the parties in the House, 23 years ago, agreed on a way forward on building a society that is inclusive, respectful, builds trust and recognises diversity. In fact, more than recognising diversity, it was changing the narrative from saying that we are a divided society that needs a fix and a cure to becoming a society where we recognise and celebrate our diversity. That is why I support the motion but not the amendment. That amendment implies that our LGBTQ+ brothers and sisters need to be cured and fixed.

For those who are listening to the debate who seek unionist unity and are wondering why we do not have it, the answer is very simple. Read the motion and the amendment. They are like chalk and cheese. That is why there is not and never can be unionist unity.

I support the motion. I do not support the amendment.

Jim Wells (DUP, South Down)

Those who oppose conversion therapy have been utterly honest in their demands, and I applaud that. We all received a briefing last week from a group of LGBT activist organisations that made it absolutely clear that what they seek and that what, clearly, the motion seeks is a complete ban on all interventions by pastors, priests and ministers on the issue.

I am a married man of 38 years, and I have three children. If I were in a situation where I started to struggle with same-sex attraction — I am not, by the way — and I went to my pastor seeking spiritual guidance, the motion and the campaign would mean that the only thing that he could do is approve of my lifestyle choice, commend it and wish me all the best. If at any time he were to quote from his Church's teaching on this issue, which is clearly outlined by Paul, Leviticus, Jewish sacred writings and the Koran, and he indicated to me his Church's teaching, if reported to the police, that pastor, priest or minister would be up in the courts. People say that it has not happened, but it has. What about Pastor McConnell from Whitewell Tabernacle, who was up in court for articulating his Christian views on a certain subject? Therefore, it happens.

Are Mr Beattie and Mr Stewart putting themselves into a position where they will put pastors, priests and ministers into the dock? If they are not, they should not be supporting the motion. When people talk about conversion therapy, they talk about physically and sexually abusive practices that are appalling. We all oppose those: there is no difficulty whatsoever with that. However, they also talk about innocent behaviour, such as people praying or asking for prayer. Remember that we are not talking about coercion here: we are talking about adults who perceive that they have a problem and who go to their spiritual adviser to seek prayer and counselling. There can be no compulsion whatsoever.

I came across an article in 'The Guardian' recently, which shocked me. The journalist wrote:

"Some churches claim their prayer practices are not conversion attempts",

but the article quoted an activist who said:

"That's merely semantics ... Conversion practice is the oxygen you breathe the minute you go into a conservative religious environment".

'The Guardian' apparently endorses the idea that conversion therapy is the oxygen that conservative Christians breathe. So when they support banning conversion therapy, they and, presumably, Mr Beattie and Mr Stewart support the banning of conservative religious practices. I notice that neither of them have asked me to give way on that point.

Here in Northern Ireland, they are outlawing the beliefs of hundreds of thousands of people, including in Upper Bann and in East Antrim. Normal, everyday Christian practices and beliefs are being compared to bogus therapy and even rape, and that is considered as merely semantics. I am not sure that I have strong enough words to condemn that slur.

If you are gay and have never stepped into a church, the sort of news that you read and the picture that you get is that there are millions of Christians in the UK who are looking for opportunities to hurt you. You are told that if someone prays for you, it is actually a form of abuse. You are told that the entire religion of hundreds of thousands of people in Northern Ireland is so toxic that it should be outlawed. I put it to the proposers of the motion that that is incredibly dangerous language. It is a crude caricature of our religious communities —

Alex Maskey (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

The Member's time is up.

Jim Wells (DUP, South Down)

— that seems designed to stir up hatred and suspicion against them and to justify taking away their basic human rights.

Alex Maskey (Sinn Féin, Belfast West)

The Business Committee has arranged to meet at 1:00 pm. I propose, therefore, by leave of the Assembly, to suspend the sitting until 2:00 pm. This debate will resume after Question Time, when the first Member to speak will be Rachel Woods.

The debate stood suspended. The sitting was suspended at 1.02 pm.

On resuming (Mr Deputy Speaker [Mr Beggs] in the Chair) —

Oral Answers to Questions — Finance

Rachel Woods (Green, North Down)

1. Miss Woods asked the Minister of Finance for an update on his plans to ensure that new buildings are zero-carbon. (AQO 1906/17-22)

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

My officials continue to engage with the Building Regulations Advisory Committee (NIBRAC) and the specialist technical subcommittee to bring forward an uplift in that area as quickly as possible. There are a number of detailed and interconnected considerations on issues such as the assessment software, outworkings of proposals emerging from other regions, renewables and local grid consequences, which are being considered alongside a cost-benefit assessment of options. My officials briefed the Finance Committee on some of the details of that last week and have been invited to provide a similar briefing to the next meeting of the all-party group on climate change. Every effort is being and will be made to progress an uplift in this Assembly mandate, if possible. I will provide notice of any consultations in due course. I have also provided the Finance Committee with outline proposals for an ambitious phased plan of uplifts over the longer term. Those have recently been published in the Department for the Economy's energy strategy options consultation, and my Department will consult on them in due course.

Rachel Woods (Green, North Down)

I thank the Minister for his answer. The Minister will be aware that the carbon footprint of construction is unregulated but can account for up to 70% of a building's emissions over its lifetime. Does the Minister intend to regulate embodied carbon in construction? Will he commit to meeting me and members of the Architects Climate Action Network Northern Ireland (ACAN) on the decarbonisation of the construction industry?

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

As I said, the Department's building regulations group is consulting on doing significant uplifts in relation to that and is addressing all the issues. We have to fit in with the Executive's overall carbon reduction targets. It is not just in the short term — we have some catch-up to do in the short term — but in the long to medium term. The officials were to brief the Committee on the undertakings. However, we are more than happy to consult others who have an interest in the area. If the Member contacts the Department, I will be happy to meet her group.

Maolíosa McHugh (Sinn Féin, West Tyrone)

Minister, if we are to become a zero-carbon society, we need to improve existing buildings as well as new structures. Is any work ongoing to retrofit existing buildings?

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

The building regulations set standards only for when building work takes place, and grant schemes and programmes to encourage retrofit are principally a matter for other Departments to lead on. The energy strategy cross-departmental group is looking at the matter. Our building regulations standards are for work to existing buildings and are largely in line with those in England. We will consider the standards in place in the South and any proposed uplifts in other regions that will come into effect in 2022 as part of our programme. We will also look at the issue of retrofit within that programme. We are mindful of the aim for zero-emission building stock by 2050 and that new buildings should not contribute to the need for further retrofit. Therefore, the regulations need to be right and issues with buildings need to be resolved. The uplift that we are looking at is considering significant improvements to the limiting fabric standards for new buildings, and it is anticipated that there will be further improvements in the subsequent uplifts with that in mind. Sudden and extreme uplifts in performance standards could halt the industry, and that is why a phased solution towards a very high standard is proposed.

Patsy McGlone (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Mid Ulster)

Can the Minister advise what action his Department has taken to improve the existing energy efficiency of public buildings? Does the Minister plan to review the Department's 'Energy Management in Public Sector Buildings' manual? Apparently, it has not been updated since 2015.

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

My Department is responsible for managing the Civil Service office estate, which equates to around 4% of the total public-sector energy consumption here. Through the office estate energy efficiency carbon reduction plans, we aim to achieve cumulative energy savings and consequential reductions in carbon. Those savings support and feed in to the wider energy management strategy and action plan to 2030 for central government introduced by the Department for the Economy. The use of energy-efficient installations has been incorporated into Civil Service accommodation and standards specifications. Furthermore, the Department's procurement guidance, which applies to all Departments, expects that any new or refurbished building should undergo the BRE Environmental Assessment Method appraisal. This seeks energy performance standards significantly in excess of the building regulations minimum.

Joanne Bunting (DUP, Belfast East)

2. Ms Bunting asked the Minister of Finance to outline the work his Department has undertaken to establish the impact on productivity of civil servants working from home (WFH). (AQO 1907/17-22)

Claire Sugden (Independent, East Londonderry)

11. Ms Sugden asked the Minister of Finance whether he will review working from home arrangements for the Northern Ireland Civil Service post-pandemic. (AQO 1916/17-22)

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

With your permission, a LeasCheann Comhairle, I will group questions 2 and 11. I place on record my continued thanks to civil servants for their hard work and flexibility in response to the challenges of delivering services during the pandemic. At very short notice this time last year, the majority of civil servants moved from the office to homeworking as the pandemic emerged. I am encouraged by feedback from my Department on the positive impact of homeworking on many of our staff, who feel that they now have a better balance between work and home commitments.

Responsibility for the performance and productivity of all staff, including those who work from home, rests with managers in each of the Departments. Staff in the Department of Finance have continued to deliver essential services while also delivering to thousands of businesses unprecedented support through COVID funding, including rates relief, a range of business grants and support for airports and hospices. The Civil Service will adopt a blended approach to home and remote working, which will depend on the individual departmental requirements and job role. A remote and homeworking policy is being developed in consultation with trade unions. The Department also recently announced plans for a number of Civil Service regional hubs. These will enable civil servants to work closer to home, reduce travel time and promote regional economic balance.

Joanne Bunting (DUP, Belfast East)

With your indulgence, Mr Deputy Speaker, I will take this opportunity to condemn the attack on a police officer. It is important, as a member of the Policing Board, that I do that and send our best wishes to her and her family.

It is clear that working from home cannot continue ad infinitum. Given the need to open the economy and instil confidence in the community, and given the extent of the vaccine roll-out, should the Civil Service not lead by example and return those who do not fall into a vulnerable category to the workplace as quickly as possible?

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

First, any return to the workplace will be guided by the health advice that the Executive as a whole will agree. The advice from the Department of Health and the health adviser in the Executive is still to work from home where possible, so that continues to be the case. Undoubtedly, the whole experience of the pandemic has accelerated a trend that was already developing in how people work, and we have to be mindful of that. Civil servants can now work in a blended situation: they can be at home, in a regional location or in headquarters. It will not significantly affect the Civil Service footprint in Belfast, for instance, as there will still be a requirement for a large number of civil servants to work out of offices. However, it changes the office accommodation requirements, and we have a responsibility to look at that.

We must look at not only the benefit for individual civil servants and workers but what the Executive are required to spend on the Civil Service estate. If the nature of work is changing and technology allows more remote working, we have a duty, for the public services that we want to support, to ensure that we are not spending money on the Civil Service estate that is not required. It is a balance between all those things. No doubt, people will go back to work in the not too distant future, but we have to ensure that it is in line with the health advice and that the new way of working will, ultimately, be of benefit to public finances and individual workers.

Claire Sugden (Independent, East Londonderry)

I also put on record my condemnation of the attack in my constituency.

I see opportunities in working from home. I also recognise that there might need to be a hybrid model. What savings can we identify? Moving forward, what lessons can be learned from the positive benefits for family life and for getting women back into the workplace?

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

It is very hard to quantify savings. If you put out a figure, that becomes the target. This is much more than that, as the Member identified. It is about the responsibilities that people have at home and in caring situations. Perhaps, in the longer term, it will be about the willingness of people to apply for jobs that are Belfast-based and involve travelling for an hour or two a day, and it could be even more than that if they are coming from further west to work five days a week in a Department's headquarters. I have no doubt that this will change the nature of work. It will open it up more to women to whom, unfortunately, the primary caring function falls and to people who live in the further regions of this part of Ireland and who are further away from their workplace than those living in the urban centres.

It will open up a lot of opportunities. It will, undoubtedly, allow us to rationalise the Civil Service and save more. It should yield savings, but that is not the primary driver behind all of this. We want a more effective and productive working environment. Regional hubs will not only allow that and contribute more to local economies but allow an exchange between local government and central government personnel to create more space for joined-up and connected government.

There are real benefits to come from this. I am loath to put figures on it. It will undoubtedly yield savings, but its major importance relates to how people work and how a greater variety of people, particularly women and those who are under-represented in the Civil Service, can access potential opportunities.

Robbie Butler (UUP, Lagan Valley)

What analysis has the Department done on levels of sickness-related distress and on whether homeworking or remote working have improved productivity?

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

The Department of Finance has done an analysis, or survey, of its staff. There has been an overwhelmingly positive response to homeworking across most of the Department's workforce. I am sure that that is not unique and is reflected across the Civil Service in general. With the challenges of the pandemic and lockdown, people have recognised the fact that blended working, where some work can be done from home, some in the regional hubs that will be developed, some in headquarters or some in city or town centres, affords staff more scope to manage their responsibilities. It has been positive and positively received. It accelerates lessons that were already beginning to be learned, and it will probably accelerate a response to those lessons in future workforce planning.

Kellie Armstrong (Alliance, Strangford)

The Minister mentioned hubs. How many people will the Connect2 hubs hold?

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

That will depend, because they are all different set-ups. The Member may be more familiar with the hub in Downpatrick, which we intend to do at an earlier stage. Some are in development phase, and we are talking to some councils about future development. The initial 10 hubs in the roll-out are almost ready to go or expected to be ready within two years, I think. The response has been overwhelmingly positive, because the hubs not only allow people to work closer to home, save travel time and help to reduce carbon emissions but allow them to contribute to their local economy and manage their work-life balance better given that they are not spending as much time in cars. We will look forward to assisting and improving productivity. I expect that, when we get those 10 hubs in place, we will look at more in the future. Each one is different and probably has different accommodation requirements. They are based on studies from where people were travelling into Belfast. That focused attention on where the first run was needed. There will not be fixed desks, so it is not an alternative place to work. It is somewhere where people can work for a number of days a week.

Matthew O'Toole (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Belfast South)

I agree with the Minister on the value of flexible working. I do not agree with the original questioner that it is something of which we should be suspicious. Will it be tied into the broader and more urgent look at the structural flaws in the Civil Service? We know that 80% of our senior civil servants are over 50, for example, and that we have high vacancy rates. How will any measures be linked to the workforce strategy to give us the Civil Service that we need in the years to come? I am sure that the Minister will not disagree that there are major, serious structural flaws in our Civil Service.

Roy Beggs (UUP, East Antrim)

That goes way beyond the issue of working from home, but the Minister may wish to comment.

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

It is a very broad issue, and we could spend a long time talking about it. These things are interrelated and complement each other. In the longer term, people will not need to spend a couple of hours a day travelling to work, which will allow more people and a greater variety of people, such as those who are under-represented in the Civil Service, to apply for jobs. We are looking closely at all the issues that the Member mentioned. There is a need, and a number of reports, such as the RHI report and the Audit Office report, looked at the make-up and capacity of the Civil Service. Significant work needs to be done, and we intend to bring that forward. These developments will assist with that, because they open up more opportunities for a broader range of people to be employed in the Civil Service.

Philip McGuigan (Sinn Féin, North Antrim)

3. Mr McGuigan asked the Minister of Finance to outline his next steps following the launch of 'The Dublin-Belfast Economic Corridor: Current Profile, Potential for Recovery & Opportunities for Cooperation' report. (AQO 1908/17-22)

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

First, I commend the eight councils and two universities along the corridor for coming together to produce this landmark report, which showed the significant opportunities to be gained from working together in that way. It is important that the corridor drive balanced economic growth across the island. For example, a high-speed Belfast-to-Dublin train should be part of an all-Ireland rail network that includes Derry, Cork and Limerick.

I understand that the councils' next step will be to establish an oversight and governance board that will develop a programme of works. That is what is needed now alongside an action plan so that the corridor can form part of an investment-led recovery from COVID and Brexit. My Department is, of course, content to play its part as the councils take their economic development work on the corridor forward.

Philip McGuigan (Sinn Féin, North Antrim)

I thank the Minister for his answer and look forward to seeing the report's outworkings and the benefits for citizens and businesses along the corridor.

The Minister mentioned a high-speed train from Belfast to Dublin: as part of that work and work on an all-Ireland rail network, will he outline some of the benefits of having such a train?

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

The benefits have long been recognised. Back when I was the Minister with responsibility for transport, it was recognised, particularly at North/South engagements, that the ambition for a high-speed and more frequent service between Dublin and Belfast would be beneficial to both cities and all of the areas in between. With that and with a broader rail development from, as I said, Derry to Dublin, Cork, Limerick and other destinations, there will be opportunities to grow indigenous businesses, establish clusters of key sectors, lever the appetite for collaboration and use the corridor as a driving force for economic development in that region and across the island generally. It should assist with securing high-value-added jobs while enabling a balanced distribution of its benefits and equality of opportunity for all our citizens.

These are ambitious plans that have been talked about for a long time. I hope that the involvement of the councils and universities and the endorsement of and encouragement from the Administrations North and South will see some advancement of the plans. The benefits that will flow from them across the Belfast-to-Dublin corridor and beyond are undoubted.

Pat Catney (Social Democratic and Labour Party, Lagan Valley)

Given your Department's role in relation to financial services, Minister, what action will it take to mitigate the damage being done to the all-Ireland economy by Brexit and the disinvestment by banks such as Bank of Ireland and Ulster Bank on both sides of the border?

Roy Beggs (UUP, East Antrim)

That question strays way beyond the issue of the economic corridor. I will let the Minister decide whether he wishes to comment.

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

My answer will be a broad one, because the question goes beyond the detail of the substantive question that I was asked.

I very much recognise that. It is an Executive responsibility, alongside the Government in Dublin and the British Government through the North/South and east-west arrangements, to ensure that the damage that has been done by Brexit be mitigated as far as possible. In that regard, the agreement between the British Government and the European Commission on protocol arrangements has gone some way to undoing some of the damage. Undoubtedly, Brexit will have a negative impact across this island in particular and, I imagine, in the longer term, in Britain, although that is very much a matter for it.

We need to be protective and ensure that the arrangements that we have work. We also need to ensure that financial institutions that, not that long ago, were the beneficiaries of support from public finances make decisions that are in the interests of the economic recovery from Brexit and the pandemic and continue to hold them to them. We do not have regulatory authority over financial institutions here, but we need to ensure, as we have been doing, that we engage with them and encourage them to see the role that they have to play in the economic recovery. When they were in difficult positions, everyone moved to support them, so there is a requirement on them to do something similar at this time.

Andrew Muir (Alliance, North Down)

This is an important report. As we seek to recover our economy, it is vital that we have good North/South and east-west cooperation.

I am aware that the Minister has a meeting scheduled, potentially for this week, of the North/South Ministerial Council with the Economy Minister. Will he give us an update on the scheduling of that meeting? Are there any potential diary clashes for the other party?

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

The Member will know that I will be the accompanying Minister on that. The Minister for the Economy and I, along with our counterparts from the South, had to signal to the North/South Ministerial Council administration sector that we were available. As far as I am aware, the signal was given last week that all Ministers would be available for the meeting, so I expect it to go ahead on Wednesday afternoon as scheduled.

Harry Harvey (DUP, Strangford)

4. Mr Harvey asked the Minister of Finance why applicants to the localised restrictions support scheme (LRSS) are experiencing a delay in payment. (AQO 1909/17-22)

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

To date, over £272 million has been issued to almost 13,000 businesses through the localised restrictions support scheme. Almost every one of the eligible businesses is now fully up to date with the payments that they are entitled to for the period of restrictions up to 14 April. Land and Property Services (LPS) will issue further payments this week to cover businesses for their entitlement up to the reopening dates agreed by the Executive last week.

Payments are on hold to a small number of applications that are being investigated because a concern has been identified about their eligibility or the possibility of double funding with another grant scheme. LPS has issued correspondence to those businesses explaining the situation and providing them with the opportunity to appeal or to provide additional information.

Harry Harvey (DUP, Strangford)

I thank the Minister for his answer. Does the Minister plan to continue providing localised restrictions support scheme payments to businesses that are working at a limited capacity?

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

Yes. We had money set aside because, until last Thursday, we were not sure what decisions the Executive would take on reopening. In previous experience, when retail had some partial reopening and could do click and collect, we continued to pay out to the retail sector under LRSS because we recognised that it was still significantly hampered from doing full business. Similarly, with hospitality and, I think, gyms, we have recognised that, even if there is a partial or outdoor reopening or, in the case of gyms, an ability to do one-on-one training, they continue to be substantially restricted in the time ahead. So, up to 24 May, which is the indicative date that the Executive have given for a full reopening of hospitality, we intend to pay out to those businesses.

We also recognise that there will continue to be mitigations for all businesses and that will restrict them, but we are limited in what we can do. LRSS is based on regulations, so, if a business is open, it is not entitled to payment. However, the Minister for the Economy's economic recovery plan received full financial support from the Executive, so we expect that and a combination of the ongoing rates relief to be of some assistance to businesses in the time ahead.

Cara Hunter (Social Democratic and Labour Party, East Londonderry)

Areas such as Benone and Magilligan and ports in my constituency are heavily dependent on tourism to thrive. Has the Minister had any conversations with the Minister for the Economy or the tourism sector to help those towns build back better after COVID?

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

As the Member will know, the primary responsibility for tourism and the economy is with the Department for the Economy. We have had discussions on the large hospitality support scheme that the Minister for the Economy is running. That has expanded somewhat, and we keep in close contact because, at various times, there has been overlap or, certainly, close contact between some of the schemes that we have been running. Bear it in mind that the Department of Finance does not do economic support — that is not our job — but we have taken it up during the pandemic. We have kept in close contact with the Department for the Economy, and we supported in full the bid that the Minister for the Economy made for economic recovery.

I recognise that a lot of the hospitality sector, particularly in the Member's constituency on the north coast, is very reliant on tourism. International tourism will be restricted again this year, but there was a substantial benefit last year that the Minister for the Economy advised us of, which was that a substantial number of visitors came to stay north of the border, many for the first time. It is in all our interests to have a peaceful time in the run-up to summer and a peaceful summer and not to discourage visitors from coming north, because a lot of those businesses will be very reliant on business on the island of Ireland this year. We need to do all collectively in our power to make sure that we have somewhere that people want to come to over the summer months and that businesses can get the best benefit that they can from that.

Kellie Armstrong (Alliance, Strangford)

I thank you and your Department for the help that you have given my office to assist businesses.

In mid-March, there was an announcement about top-up payments, but they are yet to be paid. When will businesses receive them? Additionally, where can businesses get an update on when their payment will be made?

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

Payments have been made basically every day. Some were held back because there were queries about whether people had been paid wrongly, had perhaps been overpaid or had benefited from two different sets of grant support. In a number of cases, Land and Property Services informed people that they were investigating that and gave them an opportunity to provide additional information. In some cases, there will have to be a recovery of money, although, if another grant is available, they can offset that payment and basically deduct it from whatever grant they may well get.

There is ongoing work. It is a marginal amount. In the overall scheme, about 1·6% of payments were possibly made in error, and there is an effort under way to recover that. That has slowed down some of the top-up payments. Rather than continue, when a question arose, LPS was obliged to investigate whether the payments had been made properly. I know that that raises concerns for a lot of businesses, but we also have a responsibility to the public purse to make sure that payments are made correctly and that, where they have been made in error, there is an attempt to recover them.

Christopher Stalford (DUP, Belfast South)

5. Mr Stalford asked the Minister of Finance how many vacancies there are in the Northern Ireland Civil Service (NICS). (AQO 1910/17-22)

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

Each Department is responsible for managing its resources, both financial and staff. When a Department identifies a vacancy that it needs filled, the request is referred to NICS HR in my Department to initiate the process to fill the post. At the end of March, my Department had been asked to fill over 3,000 posts across the Civil Service that had been confirmed as affordable by the relevant Departments.

Approximately 1,900 of those posts are general service posts. Around 1,000 are at administrative officer, staff officer and deputy principal grade, for which there are live recruitment competitions with available appointees and/or selection activity in progress. A further 1,250 posts are a wide range of non-general service specialist posts. NICS HR continues to plan and deliver recruitment competitions to fill those vacancies, working with Departments to seek to prioritise, agree and plan to fill the most urgent posts. Since November, NICS HR has filled over 1,500 vacancies.

Christopher Stalford (DUP, Belfast South)

At various Committees it has been outlined to us how difficult it has been for Departments to deliver on their priorities because of shortages in the Civil Service. What steps will the Minister's Department and, indeed, the Government take to advertise Civil Service careers to young people coming through as an attractive prospect for them to build their lives on?

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

That is part of the ongoing work. It is up to Departments to identify their individual workforces. We have a broader responsibility in the wider reform of the Civil Service to make sure that it is accessible and that we are trying to attract younger people. We have been having conversations about the idea of apprenticeship schemes in the Civil Service, and I know that the Department for the Economy is keen on that. We want to encourage a uniform approach across all Departments so that here is not an ad hoc approach to this.

There is a recognition that the recruitment exercise that is required can infuse more diversity and, I suppose, alter the age profile of the Civil Service as a whole. There is a recognition, as I said in answer to a previous question, that there is a substantial amount of work to be done there. This exercise, along with other exercises in terms of the Civil Service estate and a new approach to blended working arrangements, can contribute to that idea of recruiting more people but with more diversity in age and other profiles such as disability and ethnic minorities — the type of diversity that we need in the Civil Service to reflect society as a whole.

Steve Aiken (UUP, South Antrim)

Has a detailed assessment been made of the voluntary exit scheme's impact on Civil Service vacancies so that we can look closely at its impact on efficiency and whether there is a read-across to the current vacancy problem?

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

I am not aware if that has been done. I imagine, given that the scheme was put in place, that an assessment of not only how it ran its course but its impact would be available. I am happy to talk to officials and provide the Member with some material, if it exists.

Roy Beggs (UUP, East Antrim)

That is the end of our period for listed questions. We now move to 15 minutes of topical questions. Question 6 has been withdrawn.

William Humphrey (DUP, Belfast North)

T1. Mr Humphrey asked the Minister of Finance for an update on the final Budget allocation for the PSNI and to state how many new police officers that will mean, given that some 700 extra officers were promised in New Decade, New Approach (NDNA). (AQT 1211/17-22)

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

That figure eludes me just at the moment, but I can provide it for him. Between the initial Budget outline of what was available for next year and the final Budget paper, which will be brought to the House very shortly for discussion and questions, we had a lengthy discussion on improving the position on the number of police officers that can be recruited. There has been an improvement. As he will know, once you recruit somebody and put them in post, that becomes a recurrent cost year-on-year. In some sense, while we can find money next year, that commits us to year-on-year recurrent expenditure. That is what the Executive have agreed to in its final Budget position. I will get the actual figures that are involved to the Member, but it is an improvement on the draft Budget position that was outlined previously.

William Humphrey (DUP, Belfast North)

I thank the Minister for his answer. It is disappointing that we are not able to get confirmation that the 700 extra officers will be in place. Will the Minister inform the House how and when he will allocate funding to victims' pensions and how he will restore confidence in his Department given the recent damning court case?

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

I am not certain that there is a lack of confidence in my Department. I am representing the Executive's view on the funding arrangements for that. As he will know, the British Government's own statement of funding policy states very clearly that, where a Department has developed and legislated for a policy, it has responsibility for paying any costs that accrue from it. The victims' scheme that the British Government brought forward is vastly different from the scheme that was agreed by the parties at Stormont House. They have added very substantially to the scheme's scope and, consequently, to its cost. While the First Minister, the deputy First Minister, the Minister of Justice and I have committed and given undertakings to the court to ensure that victims' payments are made — we have always wanted a scheme to be running to give victims certainty — we will continue to have a discussion with the British Government about the responsibility for the funding. However, the Executive will ensure that payments are made to victims.

Nicola Brogan (Sinn Féin, West Tyrone)

T2. Ms Brogan asked the Minister of Finance for an update on when businesses are likely to receive allocations from the new grant schemes that he announced, which are very welcome, particularly now that we are moving towards economic recovery. (AQT 1212/17-22)

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

There are a number of schemes. In my enthusiasm, I announced this morning that applications opened today for the scheme for businesses that have a net asset value (NAV) of above £50,000 and were not able to avail themselves of business grants last year. They can actually apply to that from tomorrow. There are schemes to support manufacturing. There are top-up schemes of £5,000 and £10,000 for businesses that were not able to avail themselves of the localised restrictions support scheme (LRSS) or other supports over the last number of months.

Those schemes were developed because we know that there is an ongoing need for business support and to ensure that the COVID money that we had was allocated and would not be returned to Treasury. There will be further detail on those in the coming weeks. We hope to see them paying out as soon as possible because, while there is optimism that things are opening up again and that people will be able to get back to business, we recognise that the effects of the pandemic will be with us for a long time and that people's ability to get back to the normal way of trading is some time off as restrictions will continue to apply in some shape or form for the foreseeable future. The schemes will be very important to try to support those who did not have the ability to apply to the LRSS and various other support schemes.

Nicola Brogan (Sinn Féin, West Tyrone)

I thank the Minister for his comprehensive answer. It is also welcome news that most businesses now have a date for reopening. Will you confirm that LRSS payments will continue to be made to eligible businesses until they can legally resume trading?

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

Yes. When click and collect opened up for retail, we recognised that, although people could trade in some fashion, they were still a long way off normal trading and still significantly impacted by the restrictions that continue to exist.

Similarly, with hospitality and gyms, even though hospitality can operate outdoors, in a country like this, where you can never be certain about the weather, that can still be a very restrictive area in which to operate. Gyms, while they can open up for one-on-one training, as those of us who frequent them would know, a lot of the finance that they accrue is mainly from classes and the ability to take in groups of people to do training. Therefore, they continue to be significantly restricted. However, the Executive have given the indicative date of 24 May for full reopening of both hospitality and gyms. We sincerely hope that we are able to meet that date. That is the Executive's clear intention. We have given an undertaking to continue to support them through the LRSS up to that point.

Kellie Armstrong (Alliance, Strangford)

T3. Ms Armstrong asked the Minister of Finance for an update on the work being done in his Department to ensure that procurement processes are changed to keep environmental practices to the fore, given that although we have an environmental target of achieving net zero emissions by 2050, we might be able to do that a bit earlier if we were to change our procurement requirements to ensure that not only do our public services purchase environmentally friendly and environmentally improving items but that other companies that are funded by government follow that procurement path also. (AQT 1213/17-22)

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

As the Member will know, we have recently reconstituted the Procurement Board. We have added many more people with direct experience, both those who have procured in various Departments and those who have been at the business end of that, in order to try to improve the overall procurement function. We are looking very closely at that.

I intend to bring in policy on social value, which can look at a whole range of measures, including environmental issues, and ensure that we achieve the best outcomes and actually meet the Executive's targets in other areas, such as the reduction of carbon emissions, as the Member mentioned. We are happy to take all those issues on board. Not only am I open to looking at how we do our own procurement, but we have been looking closely at supply chains and ethical policies within them. "Ethical" can relate to policies on anything from the use of slave labour, basically, to production methods that are challenging or damaging to the environment and contribute to the climate change crisis. The Department wants to look at all those areas. Even though, in global terms, we are a very small procurer, I believe that we have a responsibility to lead by example on those matters. Therefore, I am keen that we bring policies on social value and ethical procurement very much to the fore in the time ahead.

Kellie Armstrong (Alliance, Strangford)

I thank the Minister for his answer. In the run-up to Earth Day, I am keen to ensure that, where we are talking about reducing carbon emissions, the Government are actually seen to do that. There are many car parking spaces at Civil Service and public buildings across Belfast. As new building regulations come forward, is consideration being given to whether people who put up new buildings will have to consider public transport access to them? Can it be a cross-government and cross-departmental commitment that all new buildings that follow the building regulations will have reduced car parking spaces in order to build upon public transport services?

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

My Department has responsibility for the Civil Service estate. We have put a proposition to Departments to reduce car parking spaces in Belfast city centre. There are very decent — some would say excellent — public transport facilities available to get people into the city centre. We have done that. We are doing it. Unsurprisingly, people who have been used to driving their cars and parking in the city centre sometimes take issue with that. Nonetheless, if we want to achieve the type of outcomes to which the Member refers, we have to look at our own house in the first instance. The logical follow-through of that is that, when we are planning any new building, we must ensure that public transport access is a feature. That follows through on something that we have already been developing.

Trevor Lunn (Alliance, Lagan Valley)

T4. Mr Lunn asked the Minister of Finance how he came to his assessment that the Troubles-related victims' payment scheme, which is to open to applications next month, will be funded, given that, at the moment, three Departments, including his, plus the British Government are telling us that they cannot afford to fund the scheme, albeit the Executive Office and the Department of Finance have said that the scheme will be funded and payments will be made on time. (AQT 1214/17-22)

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

The British Government have not said that they cannot afford to fund the scheme; they have simply said that they are not going to fund it. They are well able to afford to do that, and, according to their own statement of funding policy, it is right that they do that. That is part of the rules that they established for their Departments and which, in this instance, they are disregarding. It is not a question of affordability for them. It is a question of affordability for us, but we have given an undertaking that it will be done however we find the resource to do it. Over the last two financial years, we have provided expenditure for administration, so we have already contributed to getting the scheme up and running. We have given an undertaking to the court that payments will be made and will be made on time, and we will hold to that commitment. We will continue to engage with the British Government regarding their responsibilities in relation to the matter. Under their own policy, they are responsible for meeting the cost of the scheme.

Trevor Lunn (Alliance, Lagan Valley)

I thank the Minister for that answer. He will be familiar with the Government Actuary's Department's estimate for the cost of the scheme. At the top level, that is £1·2 billion, although I appreciate that that is over a large number of years. Minister, I wish you luck in your current activity with the British Government.

Is it possible that you, as the Finance Minister, will have to consider revenue-raising possibilities that have hitherto been turned down? I am thinking of water charges and the rates cap on domestic properties, and there are probably one or two others that I cannot think of. Is it possible that you might have to delve into those sorts of possibilities?

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

We have always wanted the scheme to be up and running and to be fully funded. We have never wanted a situation in which victims end up having to go to court to resolve those issues, creating further distress and uncertainty for dependants. We have never wanted to be in that place. We have tried to have logical discussions with the Secretary of State and others over a period of time, but those discussions were fruitless, have been difficult to arrange and continue to be difficult to arrange, so we have ended up in a situation that was not what we desired and was not of our making, but we have given undertakings to try to give that certainty to victims.

If we cannot resolve that with the Government, the Executive will undoubtedly have to meet the cost, which, as the Member said, will be anything between £600 million and £1·2 billion, according to the Government Actuary's Department. Then it will be a question for the Executive of how to find the resources to do that. If there is no additional support from Treasury, one way to do that is to top-slice from Departments and to take the year-on-year funding for the scheme off departmental budgets pro rata. Another way is to look at fundraising, but the cost associated with the scheme will be so significant, certainly over the first four or five years, that I doubt whether there is any fundraising capability in the Executive that would match it.

Mervyn Storey (DUP, North Antrim)

T5. Mr Storey asked the Minister of Finance — after asking him to join with him, as a member of the Policing Board, in condemning the murderous attempt on the life of a part-time police constable in Limavady in the past few hours, to whom he sends his thoughts; welcoming the fact that the Minister will open the business fund tomorrow; and placing on record his appreciation to Land and Property Services (LPS) for the outstanding work that it has done — whether, in light of the fact that he has made changes to the Procurement Board, introduced social requirements and even thrown in climate change, he will also include efficiency measures, given that, already this week, two cases have been brought to him in which the problem has been procurement. (AQT 1215/17-22)

Conor Murphy (Sinn Féin, Newry and Armagh)

First, I concur with the Member's remarks about the incident in Limavady. I appreciate his remarks in relation to LPS and the work that it has done. I think that, like the Department, LPS is looking forward to getting back to what it is supposed to do, which is collecting rates. There is still some more work to be done to get support out there, and it has performed that function very effectively.

We of course want to make procurement as efficient as possible, and we are not looking simply at social value and how procurement can be of benefit more broadly. Procurement has to be done efficiently. We have to make sure that there is value for money and that the relationship between the way in which government awards contracts and the people who are in the sphere to try to provide services to government is as efficient as it can be. That is why we took the permanent secretaries off the Procurement Board and put in practitioners from various fields, including from construction, the social economy and a range of areas with direct experience of dealing with government. We did that to make sure that people are talking the same language and so that we can get an efficient outcome from procurement policy.

Roy Beggs (UUP, East Antrim)

That is the end of the period for questions to the Minister of Finance. I ask Members to take their ease for a few moments as we change places.

Private Members' Business

Rachel Woods (Green, North Down)

I thank the Members from the Ulster Unionist Party for tabling the motion and for giving us a chance to reject conversion therapy and expose the damaging practices that some have supported and continue to support.

I do not have enough time today to outline my reasons for supporting the motion. It is 2021, and it should not need to be debated. The Green Party has been highlighting conversion therapy in the Chamber since 2012. Nearly a decade later, a ban is still not a reality, but I welcome the commitment from all those parties that support the motion. It is time for some action. Legislation must be passed in this mandate.

I thank those who have got in touch to lobby about this matter, and I also thank the Ban Conversion Therapy group and all others who have campaigned for years to advance LGBTQ rights. We will continue to campaign to show people that minority orientation or gender identity is normal; that you can be happy, healthy and accepted as an LGBTQ person in Northern Ireland; and that your life needs no cure.

There have been previous attempts to carve out circumstances for exemptions, and we have one such example today. I will not get into a debate about religion, although I am happy to have such a debate. We know that this is not about imposing on religious freedoms.

Jim Wells (DUP, South Down)

Will the Member give way?

Rachel Woods (Green, North Down)

I will not. We all know how far we need to go in recognising and positively acting on LGBTQ rights in Northern Ireland. We need to look at the lived experiences and the health inequalities, and we need to talk about bullying, HIV, stigma, trauma, shame and the impacts of such on everybody in our society, but especially those whom we are talking about today. Anyone who watched 'It's a Sin' recently will know exactly what I am talking about, and, for those who have not watched it, I suggest that they do.

Roy Beggs (UUP, East Antrim)

I advise the Member that, whether she takes interventions or not, she has four minutes.

Rachel Woods (Green, North Down)

Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. I will not take my four minutes.

We need proper mandatory and comprehensive relationships and sexuality education that reflects the lives of everybody in our society.

Let us look at the mental health impact of continuing to stigmatise those who identify as LGBTQ, even the young people in our schools. The Department of Education's research into post-primary school experiences showed that two thirds of LGBT young people did not feel welcomed or valued in their post-primary school. Some young people decide not to come out because of the negative attitudes of others, and I know this well through personal experience. So many of my friends have experienced this through secondary school. One of my friends was ganged up on after coming out and had rocks hurled at him. With another friend, I had to call 999 after they took a drug overdose because of bullying.

This is the reality of the school system that we have here. This is the reality of the attitudes that a lot of people have and continue to portray. These attitudes, it appears, are based on a lack of understanding of LGBTQ people, leading to stereotypes and, in some cases, intolerance. Some 88·6% of LGBT people heard homophobic or transphobic language in schools. Two thirds heard people receive verbal threats. Some 88% of respondents to the Rainbow Project's survey reported that teachers rarely talked about LGBT issues sensitively.

Banning conversion therapy is one step that needs to be taken, but we need to do a lot more to right the wrongs and provide support. Previous Executives and Governments have failed queer people. The sexual orientation strategy, promised since 2007, still has not been delivered —

Roy Beggs (UUP, East Antrim)

Will the Member draw her marks to a close?

Rachel Woods (Green, North Down)

— and no funding from Departments with responsibility for equality has been provided to LGBT groups since Peter Hain was Secretary of State. Progress on equality has come through the courts or Westminster. Today is an opportunity to begin to redress that and send a clear signal of support. We will support the motion but not the amendment.

Deirdre Hargey (Sinn Féin, Belfast South)

Thank you to everybody who has contributed to the debate today.

Gerry Carroll (People Before Profit Alliance, Belfast West)

On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. The Speaker said previously that all Members on the speaking list would be called in the debate. I was on the speaking list, and I think that others might have been. Can you advise on that point?

Roy Beggs (UUP, East Antrim)

I have been given direction that there is a time allocated for this debate, and I have exercised that direction. The Minister has attempted to allow as many people as possible to speak, but I was advised by the Speaker's Office before coming in here that it was to be four minutes, with one more person to speak. Apologies for that, but the Business Committee allocated an hour and a half for this debate, and that is what has been afforded to Members. If, in future, you wish to have more time in the debate, it is important that those representatives in the Business Committee decide such things.

Kellie Armstrong (Alliance, Strangford)

On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. I do not mean to question your ruling on this. However, as a member of the Alliance Party, under d'Hondt, I would have been entitled to speak as the second Member speaking for the Alliance Party. I was not brought into the debate today. I ask that you take that decision back to the Speaker's Office to review.

Roy Beggs (UUP, East Antrim)

Members, your comments are on the record and will be fed back. I repeat that there is a limited time opportunity, and I have been operating under the appropriate direction from the Speaker himself.

Deirdre Hargey (Sinn Féin, Belfast South)

Thank you again to all the contributors today, and to John and Doug for tabling the motion. I agree wholeheartedly that so-called conversion therapy is a cruel and inhumane practice, and it should be ended now. Legislation to ban it should be introduced as soon as possible. Indeed, I am exploring all legislative options available to me.

This is an abhorrent practice, and it is cross-cutting: there was the potential for it to be caught up and lost between several Departments. To ensure the protection of our LGBTQI+ community, my Department has taken the lead in this policy area. I call on everyone around the Chamber to support our work in bringing a ban into effect. We need to do this properly, through research, consultation and producing effective legislation, and we need to make sure that we get the policy right. We can learn from the experience and situation of other jurisdictions. We will work to ensure that we avoid the pitfalls and shortcomings that they faced, and I do believe that we can lead the way in producing a model of best practice and provide the best possible protections for our community here. We need to hear from those who have lived experience of this so-called practice, in whatever form it took, by listening to and involving those impacted by discrimination and injustice and by working with them through a co-design approach, which we are using to take forward the LGBTQI+ strategy on behalf of the Executive.

Last year, the Department established an expert panel as part of the development of the strategy. One of the recommendations put forward by the group was the ban of this practice. That is a recommendation that I wholeheartedly support. I have listened to the lived experience and stories of those who have been impacted by the practice. Those emotional and traumatic experiences should guide us as we move forward to protect our community by bringing in a ban.

I know how huge the hurt and damage to people can be when they are told that they need to be fixed or cured. We have heard that hurt again from many in recent days. That language and behaviour are unacceptable and should not be tolerated. Such language will not be included in any proposals that are put forward by my Department. We need to accept people for who they are, and that is what I will be sure to do.

I know that this has been touched on, but who are they? They are lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, queer and intersex. As was said, they are family members, loved ones and neighbours in our community. They are those who treat us and who teach us. Indeed, they are our co-workers in this very Chamber.

I have also engaged political reps and parties to listen to their views, concerns and lived experiences. I welcome their support and look forward to working in partnership with them. My officials have commenced policy work to inform the drafting of the legislation alongside work that we are doing on the LGBTQI strategy. We need to identify the facts —.

Jim Wells (DUP, South Down)

Will the Member give way?

Deirdre Hargey (Sinn Féin, Belfast South)

No, you are OK, thank you.

Jim Wells (DUP, South Down)

Are you scared to give way?

Deirdre Hargey (Sinn Féin, Belfast South)

No, I am not. I am definitely not.

Roy Beggs (UUP, East Antrim)

Order.

Deirdre Hargey (Sinn Féin, Belfast South)

We need to identify the facts, such as how widespread the practice is and the forms that it takes. We need to look at legislation in other areas by pulling out what has worked and what has not worked. We need to be clear on what we are going to ban, and we need to look at what is already in place. Just as importantly, we need to consider how we can help and support those who have been most impacted on and start to repair the damage of this so-called conversion therapy.

As we work through the drafting and, ultimately, the passing of legislation, there are things that can be implemented now. The strategy aims to tackle the wider inequalities that LGBTQI+ citizens face at every stage of their lives, promoting acceptance and recognising and enhancing the visibility of our LGBTQI community. I encourage all aspects of our society to take what action they can on this. I welcome —.

Jim Wells (DUP, South Down)

Will the Member give way?

Deirdre Hargey (Sinn Féin, Belfast South)

No, you are OK, thank you. I listened to your contribution.

As was said —.

Jim Wells (DUP, South Down)

On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker.

Roy Beggs (UUP, East Antrim)

I hope that this is a point of order.

Jim Wells (DUP, South Down)

Have we got to the stage in the Assembly that a Minister cannot even take a legitimate intervention?

Roy Beggs (UUP, East Antrim)

As the Member will recognise, that is not a point of order, but his comment is on the record.

Daniel McCrossan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, West Tyrone)

On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker.

Roy Beggs (UUP, East Antrim)

Order, Members. The debate has gone quite well. Members have generally been respectful. Please do not let it descend into lots of points of order.

Daniel McCrossan (Social Democratic and Labour Party, West Tyrone)

Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. Mr Wells has been bouncing around the Chamber and has not sanitised a single desk today, including this one, that one and the one behind me. Perhaps you could remind him about safety —.