Scottish Parliament, 3 November 2011

391 contributions from 87 members. The official report.

Veterans

Tricia Marwick (None, Mid Fife and Glenrothes)

Before we start the debate, I remind members to leave in place the cards in their consoles.

The first item of business is a debate on motion S4M-01218, in the name of Keith Brown, on veterans.

Keith Brown (Scottish National Party, Clackmannanshire and Dunblane)

Annual remembrance Sunday commemorations will be taking place the length and breadth of Scotland, and will be marked by thousands of Scots in honour of those whose lives were lost in times of war and other conflicts. At this time, it is appropriate also to reflect on that section of society who have served and, thankfully, returned to civilian life—namely, Scotland’s veterans.

Scotland’s veterans community is much bigger than one might expect. That is in no small part due to the fact that Scotland contributes to the armed forces of this country more people per head of population than any other part of the United Kingdom—around 400,000, according to Veterans Scotland, which is the umbrella body that represents organisations that work on behalf of veterans.

Veterans live all over Scotland, although there are concentrations in particular areas, as one might expect. Veterans are much more than the stereotypical elderly man in a blazer, wearing his medals and carrying a flag at a parade on remembrance Sunday. That veteran exists, of course, but veterans in Scotland have served in world war two, Korea, Aden, east Africa, Suez, Northern Ireland, the Falkland Islands, the Balkans, Iraq, Afghanistan and in many other places around the globe, from the Rhine to Hong Kong and from Belize to Cyprus.

There are veterans in their 80s and 90s, but they are also in every other age group down from that; we have veterans who are only 19 and 20 years old. Veterans are predominantly men, but women have also served and have done so with distinction, just as men have.

When we talk about veterans, we talk about everybody who has served in the armed forces, including those in the Territorial Army and reserve forces. Those veterans live and work among us. They are an integral part of Scottish society. They make use of public, private and voluntary services in the same way as every other member of Scottish society, as is absolutely right. They access healthcare at the point of need, they live as owner-occupiers or as tenants of private landlords and social landlords and they have their children educated in our schools. They are part of our workforce. They put their skills and expertise to excellent use. Many are retired, and are making the most of their lives in the ways they wish to do so.

Do we owe these people a debt of gratitude? Of course we do. Each of them has put their life on the line. They have experienced and seen the best and the worst of human nature. Many of them have been to war—the worst possible resolution to international dispute and disagreement. Others have been international peace keepers who have faced bombs, bricks, stones and hatred—sometimes, tragically, very close to home. In the face of all of that, they have put duty before self interest so that we can live in peace and enjoy the freedoms that we sometimes take for granted.

Yet, by and large, the veteran does not expect a great deal in return. The veterans whom I have met and know are unassuming. They do not want to make a fuss; they just need their special circumstances recognised and acknowledged. That is very little to ask and that is why the Scottish Government has put veterans at the centre of our policy thinking, development and delivery. We have recognised that, sometimes, it is important to design and provide services and support in a way that is tailored to the specific and unique needs of the veteran. We have done well in that regard and will continue to deliver more as time goes on. We will, of course, plan for the future.

Our commitment to the veterans community in Scotland is a matter of public record. We have taken action in support of the words that we have spoken in favour of veterans and their interests. The agenda that we have followed and the results that we have achieved are widely acknowledged by the veterans community and by the other United Kingdom Administrations.

What is in place for veterans? What does the Government’s record look like? Does it stand up to scrutiny? I believe that it does, so I will give some examples from that record. We have added policy responsibility for veterans’ issues to a ministerial portfolio. We are the first Administration to do that since devolution. We have appointed an armed forces and veterans advocate at director-general level to co-ordinate the delivery of Scottish Government policy as it impacts on veterans, and we have created a Scottish veterans fund with resources since 2008 of more than £300,000, which has provided grants to more than 30 projects in support of veterans.

We have created a steering group that comprises the Scottish Government, the Ministry of Defence and senior officials of veterans organisations to examine issues around policy development and to facilitate direct access to Scottish ministers. Veterans organisations frequently tell me that they appreciate the access that they have to ministers. We have established quarterly meetings between Veterans Scotland and me to discuss priorities for action and we have established armed forces and veterans champions in national health service boards and local authorities as points of contact as well as for dispute resolution and signposting in relation to public services.

Beyond getting the administration right, we have delivered a range of direct services to Scotland’s veterans. We have made tremendous progress in health and housing. For example, in healthcare, we have given priority NHS treatment to veterans who have service-related conditions. With NHS Lothian, we have set up a £300,000 prosthetic-limb project to provide state-of-the-art prosthetics to veterans. In 2009, with NHS Lothian’s Veterans First Point project, we created a one-stop shop for veterans that is based around mental health services. We have provided £1.7 million to Combat Stress for specialist mental health services in in-patient care and an outreach service. We have published leaflets such as “Have you served your country? Taking care of veterans”, which draws attention to the support packages that are in place for veterans.

Considerable progress has also been made in relation to housing.

Alex Fergusson (Conservative, Galloway and West Dumfries)

I acknowledge the work that has been done, particularly in the NHS, to ease our veterans’ lot. However, it has been brought to my attention that there is still an issue as regards general practitioners’ acknowledgement and recognition of specialist issues in relation to veterans. Does the Government have any thoughts on how that might be addressed?

Keith Brown (Scottish National Party, Clackmannanshire and Dunblane)

That is a good question. Substantial work is being done in that area. When a veteran presents to a GP, it is often difficult to get to the issue, because an awful lot of shields can be put up. Some additional support might be needed to encourage GPs to realise that that is the case and that they might have to delve a bit deeper. Of course, that can happen with any patient—as I am sure Dr Simpson would confirm—but it is a particular trait of veterans. We are working on that. It is a question of rolling out advice and guidance to GPs, and that is continuing within Government.

On housing, we have published a housing guide for service leavers and more than 14,000 copies have been distributed so far. We have revised the social housing guidance to landlords to highlight the flexibilities that landlords have in allocating accommodation to ex-service personnel. We have made it easier for ex-service personnel to establish a local connection when they seek social housing and we have developed a national housing options advice leaflet with Veterans Scotland. We have abolished means testing for disabled veterans who need adaptations, which removes compensation payments from the means-testing process.

There have been other initiatives more generally. For example, we have provided grant funding to Veterans Scotland to develop an e-portal that will contain a raft of information that can be used by the service provider and the veteran alike, and it is about to go live.

Kevin Stewart (Scottish National Party, Aberdeen Central)

I am glad that the minister has outlined all the things that the Scottish Government is doing for veterans, but it seems that the UK Government is failing on certain issues. We now have the military covenant, but veterans are still having to fight for their rights through the courts. I am thinking particularly of nuclear-test veterans. What does the minister think of the fact that certain veterans have to fight the UK Government in court to get their rights?

Keith Brown (Scottish National Party, Clackmannanshire and Dunblane)

Kevin Stewart makes a pertinent point, but I point out that the court process is continuing and will come to a crucial juncture on 14 November. Although responsibility lies with the UK Government, I have met the veterans and listened to their case and I told them that I am interested in hearing the outcome of the court case. I have written to the UK Minister for Veterans, Andrew Robathan, on their behalf and raised some of the points that the member has raised.

As I said, we have taken a number of other initiatives. We took part in and supported financially armed forces day, which was a national event in Edinburgh this year that proved to be a resounding success, with the veterans’ village in particular proving to be very popular.

We have made it clear to the Ministry of Defence that the Scottish Government will be interested in hosting an MOD hospital unit, should the decision be taken to continue with that model of treatment when the current contracts expire in 2013, and we have met and visited a range of veterans’ organisations up and down the country to hear first-hand about the issues that matter to veterans. We have made a clear commitment to the firm base forum, which is the armed forces led forum that encourages collaborative working between the three services, strategic service delivery bodies and the veterans community.

Further, on collaboration, we have not taken policies forward on our own, so I record my appreciation of those who help to inform our thinking. Veterans Scotland has proved to be an invaluable ally, especially because—unlike such organisations in the rest of the UK—it is able to bring together many of the relevant bodies, which makes communication and representation much easier. Another such organisation is the cross-party group on supporting veterans: I am delighted that there is cross-party consensus and willingness to work together to develop ideas and proposals because the welfare of veterans is not, and should not be, a partisan issue. I will welcome ideas and proposals on what further actions are needed.

Kevin Stewart mentioned the new military covenant. It is worth saying that what we develop in the future will be consistent with it. I announced at a recent conference on the NHS and the armed forces community that the Scottish Government will produce a road map on the way forward, which will set out our agenda, objectives and priorities for developing the best public, private and third sector support for the armed forces community, including veterans. It will complement the UK military covenant. We will deliver the covenant in Scotland, but we also aim to go further. [Interruption.]

Keith Brown (Scottish National Party, Clackmannanshire and Dunblane)

Thank you.

We have an acknowledged track record in delivering the service personnel command paper commitments in Scotland, and we will build on that to provide a range of support services that are as wide as possible and that meet the needs and aspirations of Scotland’s veterans community. We will continue to engage with our strategic partners in the NHS, local authorities and the voluntary sector as well as, crucially, with veterans, on what needs to be captured by the road map. We will listen to those people, in particular the veterans, and we will consider any ideas that are suggested. No door is being closed.

We have a few ideas of our own already. We are planning a review, in particular to improve information technology systems so that veteran status is better recorded on patient records when the veteran so wishes, and there will be more conferences on sharing best practice among armed forces and veterans champions. We will consult on changes to the legal rules that councils and housing associations must use when deciding who should have priority for their houses, with the aim of giving them greater flexibility in determining their approaches to meeting housing needs in their areas. We will also consider the development of specific support programmes for veterans who are in prison. We will aim to have the road map ready for spring 2012. It is an ambitious programme and it will be testing, but we are determined to drive the agenda forward.

Veterans are an asset to Scotland. They have given so much and they still contribute so much in so many walks of life, so they deserve our thanks and gratitude in return. The support and advice services that have been put in place by the Scottish Government, the NHS in Scotland, local authorities and the voluntary sector, and which are specifically designed for veterans in Scotland are good—in fact, they are very good. They continue to improve and to evolve as the dynamic of the individual veteran changes.

More needs to be done, and we acknowledge that. It can be done if there is willingness to work together in a spirit of partnership. Second best is not an option for our veterans: they deserve nothing less than the best. This debate is the right one to have and this is the right time to have it.

It is useful to hear the views of other people on this subject; it is worth thinking about the words of Maya Angelou, who said:

“How important it is for us to recognise and celebrate our heroes and she-roes”.

It is important that we remember, but it is also important that we do things. Our actions should back up those words, and that is crucial. John F Kennedy said:

“As we express our gratitude, we must never forget that the highest appreciation is not to utter words, but to live by them.”

That is what the Scottish Government is seeking to do with veterans.

I am delighted that this debate is taking place and I look forward to hearing members’ speeches.

I move,

That the Parliament notes that, as the annual Remembrance Day commemorations take place across Scotland and as the ultimate sacrifice of those who fought and died in times of war in defence of the country’s freedoms and way of life is remembered with respect and honour, it is also fitting and appropriate to reflect on the needs and aspirations of Scotland’s veterans community, many of whom are injured mentally and physically; notes the initiatives and programmes developed and introduced by the Scottish Government to plan, co-ordinate and deliver support and advice services from the private, public and voluntary sectors for ex-service personnel, including a number of initiatives to strengthen the provision of and access to health, transport and housing services, and welcomes the UK Government’s commitment to the Military Covenant, a commitment that the Scottish Government fully endorses and the principles of which it will continue to build on for the veterans community in Scotland.

Richard Simpson (Labour, Mid Scotland and Fife)

I welcome the debate. This Parliament is accused of having meaningless debates, but this is certainly not one of them. The issue is important and I want at the outset to acknowledge not only the Government’s role over the past few years, which has been exemplary, but also Keith Brown’s personal experience and commitment. It is not often that an Opposition member can say that; I am pleased to be able to do so, because I think that a great job has been done, although I have some minor criticisms—members would expect nothing less.

As the minister said, there are 400,000 ex-service personnel, whose ranks are joined by another 2,500 every year. Beyond them, of course, are their families. There is probably not a family in Scotland that has not had a veteran in it or in the extended family.

I was born during the second world war and I understand that my father was killed on active service. I was adopted into a family. In my adoptive family, my grandfather was gassed at Ypres in the first world war and my uncle was killed at Monte Cassino in the second world war; throughout my childhood, I was aware of the marked effect that that had on my cousin, his son. It is not an untypical story.

Current and recent wars have increased awareness of the role of the armed forces and have, I believe, substantially increased their standing in the public mind. That is evidenced by the response to armed forces day and the response to the various parades that the armed forces have conducted throughout my constituency, many of which I have attended.

As I said, the Government has made a good start. I particularly praise the veterans fund and its encouragement of control, self-reliance and development, which has been welcome.

The deaths in Iraq and Afghanistan and, previously, in Northern Ireland will obviously have had a profound effect on the families of the men concerned. A growing number of personnel are seriously affected in a variety of ways. Improvised explosive devices are a horrible aspect of current wars. They cause serious damage, such as loss of limbs and damage to sensory systems. I very much welcome the fact that, as a result of that horror, there have been advances in medical treatment of trauma and in development of prosthetics, in which Scotland has played an active part. That work has benefited not only those who have been injured on active service, but others who have trauma-related problems. The University of Strathclyde, among others, has made a significant contribution in that regard, and the unit in NHS Lothian, which the minister mentioned, has played an effective part in the practical application of such treatment.

It was partly in recognition of such serious disabilities that the Labour Government increased considerably the compensation package, which I understand is now being curtailed somewhat. The difficulties around that package are regrettable.

I very much welcome the proposal at UK level to legislate for what has until now been a voluntary military covenant. The bill is to include healthcare, education, housing and inquests, but it will also include power for the UK Government to add additional measures if it feels that to do so would be appropriate. It is particularly welcome that the covenant will be subject to an annual report to the UK Parliament by the relevant secretary of state and that, additionally, there will be an independent review group. That will mean that it will be a case not just of the Government saying what it is doing, but of the independent review group saying whether what the Government is doing is appropriate.

The UK Labour Party’s desire for pensions to be included is particularly relevant, given the move from use of the retail prices index to the consumer prices index. That may be justifiable during the debt crisis, but making it a permanent move will, in the long term, remove hundreds of thousands of pounds from some of our most seriously disabled veterans, so the issue needs to be looked at again. We also want compensation and mental health provision to be included.

Even if a person is not directly affected at the time, witnessing the horrific events that take place can have an effect later—sometimes many years later. During my time as an addiction consultant in West Lothian during the four years for which I was out of the Parliament, I was struck by the number of veterans whom I saw who were suffering from post-traumatic stress disorder but who presented with problems to do with drugs and alcohol, which they were using to ameliorate their symptoms. Recognition of that issue in the addictions field is important. The support that I got for my patients at Hollybush house was invaluable, and I acknowledge the additional support that the Government has provided to that unit and, in particular, its outreach service, which is a welcome development.

My colleague Margaret McDougall will deal with the matter of the Ministry of Defence hospital unit in Scotland, issues to do with combat stress treatment and the issue of remote and rural resident veterans and how their services can be handled. Neil Bibby will refer to Erskine, which is another valuable resource that we have in Scotland.

I am concerned that we do not pay enough attention to the consequences of leaving the services. Of necessity, the services are highly institutionalised organisations. Individuals within the organisations are supported and protected, but when they leave they are on their own, except for the organisations that support them. Mark Griffin will enlarge on that. As the minister indicated, housing remains problematic for some veterans. Elaine Murray will talk about a local housing association in that regard.

I am proud of the fact that when it was in government, the Labour Party built or refurbished 40,000 dwellings for serving personnel. However, that does not address the issue of those who have left the services.

In all of this we must not forget the effect on families and on children. The existence of voluntary network support organisations can be of great help, but as with the veterans themselves, we should consider being more proactive in ensuring that if help is needed, the contacts have already been established, if only in a very light-touch way.

It is appropriate to discuss supported employment today, given that Poppyscotland, which is the Parliament’s charity, supports veterans who work with it. Scotland faces the potential closure of the eight Remploy factories as a result of the UK Government’s response to the Sayce report. Here comes my criticism, minister. I regret that the Scottish Government did not appear to respond to the Sayce report and failed to respond to the UK consultation on the report before 16 October. A substantial amount of supported employment grew from the first world war and it remains important to veterans. I was surprised that with everything that the Government has done and with its focus on the issue, it did not respond.

There are many examples of work that is being done. There are therapy and rehabilitation developments, including a centre in Midlothian. There is also a project that is close to my heart for various reasons, which is the Gardening Leave charity which was started by Anna Baker Cresswell in Ayrshire. Therapeutic gardening is not a new concept—indeed, there are about 160 therapeutic gardening organisations in Scotland under the umbrella organisation Trellis, which is based in Perth in my constituency—but its application to veterans with combat stress is new in the United Kingdom. The approach was developed in the United States to help Vietnam veterans and has been of great value. I pay tribute to Anna Baker Cresswell and to the current extension of her work; I believe that her work has a valuable role to play. I pay tribute to the poppy project that is run by Gardening Leave. The project is creating Scotland’s only collection of poppy varieties, which is to be dedicated to the fallen of conflicts that tend to be forgotten, such as those in Malaysia and Aden, and others to which the minister referred.

Each veteran will find their own way; the important thing is the contacts. I welcome the debate and what the Government has done. I hope that it will not be too late for the Government to look closely at how Parliament responds to the issue of supported employment, which I believe is of considerable importance.

As we approach remembrance day, we should all feel proud of the contribution that service personnel have made and continue to make. As a Parliament, we should today reconfirm our determination to recognise and support veterans. This is not a party issue but one on which the whole Parliament can unite. We support the Government’s motion.

I move amendment S4M-01218.1, after “physically” to insert:

“; notes that veterans of the regular and territorial services are affected and recognises the importance of supporting the families and children of all of those veterans; further recognises the historic and continuing value of supported employment for some disabled veterans”.

Alex Fergusson (Conservative, Galloway and West Dumfries)

Although it is customary to begin any debate by saying how pleased one is to take part in it, I am genuinely pleased to participate in the debate this morning. I very much endorse Richard Simpson’s opening remarks about the Government’s record on the issue—the word “exemplary” is not too strong—and take his later criticism to be entirely constructive. I hope that the debate will continue to be constructive. I commend the minister for lodging the motion, which allows all of us to discuss the matter. As he said, this is the right time for this debate.

Perhaps I should declare an interest. I am a member of the Poppyscotland Scottish advisory committee to the Royal British Legion—it was much easier when that was called simply the board of Poppyscotland. I also have the great honour of having recently been elected as convener of the cross-party group on armed forces veterans in the Scottish Parliament. In that regard, I pay tribute to the work of Jeremy Purvis in the previous session. He founded that group and did a great deal to raise the profile of veterans issues in this institution. He is no longer an MSP, but through that work, he has left us a legacy for which we should all be extremely grateful. I am more than happy to assure members that the work that he initiated will be continued through this session with the able assistance of the cross-party group’s deputy conveners Stewart Maxwell, Hugh Henry and Willie Rennie. I give the minister due notice that I wrote to him just yesterday—he can put this in his diary if he wants to—to invite him to attend the cross-party group on Wednesday 13 June at 6 o’clock. We all hope that he will be able to accept that invitation, other commitments allowing.

During the previous session, I was greatly privileged in the role of Presiding Officer to visit and have contact with a number of organisations and individuals whose efforts are entirely focused on improving the lives of veterans, such as Lady Haig Poppy Factory, which the Presiding Officer recently visited, Whitefoord house, Combat Stress in Ayrshire, its partner charity Gardening Leave—which Richard Simpson has just spoken about—Southwest Scotland RNR, Erskine, SSAFA Forces Help and others. Anyone who has encountered or visited any of those organisations or any of the many others that are involved with veterans issues cannot help but be made aware of the emotional nature of such encounters or visits, and it also becomes horribly apparent just how badly the services that they offer are needed. In a way, I find it quite frightening that Veterans Scotland now has 53 member organisations under its umbrella, and that there are many others that are not. That signifies the immense need for veteran support. That is troubling enough, but that need appears to be growing, which is doubly troubling and serves as a reminder to the Parliament that we must never take our eyes off the ball.

I am glad to say that much of what I have learned over the past four years is positive, in particular in respect of how much better the armed forces now are at recognising and dealing with symptoms of health issues—Richard Simpson touched on that—and especially mental health issues, while individuals are still serving in the forces, rather than leaving it to others to cope with them once those individuals have returned to civilian life, as used to happen, although the return to civilian life still brings its problems.

Another huge step in the right direction is the reduction in the number of years between people leaving the forces and their seeking and being referred to appropriate support if they need it. Although my memory is not what it used to be and I am open to argument, I think I am right in saying that, not too long ago, the average gap between a person’s leaving the forces and their seeking support was more than 30 years and that, despite the improvement, the gap is still in the teens of years. The mind boggles—mine does, at any rate—at what those individuals must go through mentally and/or physically before they seek the help that is available, which they either do not know about or perhaps are too proud to ask about. Whatever the reason, I cannot praise highly enough the organisations—Dr Simpson mentioned Combat Stress and its outreach service, for example—that make it their business to go out and try to ensure that people know that help is at hand, that there is absolutely no shame in seeking it, and that that help is the very least that we can offer as a society for what those extraordinary men and women have given us.

Dr Simpson has done the debate a favour—indeed, I think the minister acknowledged it in his speech—in highlighting in the amendment the role that is played nowadays by the Territorial Army, which is much more active and involved in the military scene than has historically been the case.

I vividly recall talking to a Territorial Army soldier who had not long returned to his office job after a first tour of duty in Afghanistan. I asked him whether the change had been difficult to cope with in any regard. His reply surprised me somewhat, but he was clearly troubled. He said that the usual reaction to his return was along the lines of “Oh well, six months in the sun, eh? Some people get all the good jobs,” or “I’d’ve thought you’d have a better sun tan than that by now.”; whereas he had clearly been emotionally expecting something rather more inquisitive, sympathetic and understanding. I suspect that the reaction of his work colleagues was the reaction of those who do not quite know how to react to an unusual and perhaps awkward situation. However, it highlights the acute sensitivity and understanding that returning servicemen and women need, but perhaps often do not receive and which will often play on them mentally with who knows what end result.

The Labour amendment rightly asks us to recognise the continuing value of supported employment for disabled veterans. I suggest that there is also a need to consider greater support within normal employment for returning Territorial Army personnel.

We are often reminded that a country is judged by how it looks after its elderly people, but I believe that it should equally be judged on how it looks after its veterans. As we approach armistice day and remembrance Sunday, it is entirely appropriate that we remember those who have given their lives so that we can live in relative freedom and stability today, but it is every bit as appropriate that we redouble our efforts to support our serving soldiers, sailors, airmen and women not just while they serve but long after they have returned to civilian life.

Presiding Officer, I trust that the voting system will not be further tested this evening when we decide on the motion and amendment, because I hope that the vote will be entirely unanimous. Certainly, we on this side are proud and pleased to support the motion and the amendment.

Jim Eadie (Scottish National Party, Edinburgh Southern)

Politicians and Governments who send our young men and women into battle and ask them to put their lives on the line have a duty to ensure that when those same men and women come home, having been discharged from the armed forces, and return to civilian life, society does all that it can and more to support them.

For those of us who have never served in the armed forces or experienced armed conflict, it is impossible to imagine how difficult it is to return from that extreme situation to the normality of civilian life. People may struggle to find and keep a job, they may find themselves without a roof over their head and they may face physical and mental health challenges on a daily basis.

It is right that our Parliament should be at the centre of the debate about how best to provide appropriate support to ex-service personnel, and it is right that the Scottish Government should continue to engage with the range of organisations that actively support veterans in overcoming the challenges that confront them. Veterans Scotland, the Scottish Veterans Association, Poppyscotland and the Royal British Legion are just some of the organisations that are dedicated to improving the lives of ex-service personnel.

I join colleagues across the chamber in putting on record my appreciation of those who have served and are serving in the armed forces and for the organisations that support veterans and their families. As we approach remembrance day, the poppy of remembrance is a poignant reminder of the sacrifice of previous generations in two world wars and in conflicts since in the Gulf and elsewhere. The poppy also brings to mind the poppy fields of Afghanistan, which is a stark reminder of the conflict in which servicemen and women continue to risk and, yes, to lose their lives in the service of their country.

We can all acknowledge the debate and the controversy that have inevitably surrounded the decisions to go to war in Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya; at the same time, we can pay unqualified and unconditional tribute to the courage, sacrifice and service of those servicemen and women who have served their country in each of those conflicts.

We can all agree that the cost of conflict and the pain of war are very real indeed for families who have lost a loved one and for service personnel who see their own lives transformed through injury and disability. The Scottish Government must stand ready at all times to do all that it can to support our veterans and ex-service personnel. That is why I welcome the specific initiatives that have been taken in Scotland to do just that. The Scottish veterans fund, for example, is, as we heard from the minister, a dedicated fund for Scotland’s war veterans that was launched in May 2008. The fund has provided grants for 33 projects in support of veterans.

One such project is the Mark Wright Project, an outdoor programme in the Lothians led by qualified outdoor activity specialists that will help veterans to regain physical and mental strength through a range of outdoor pursuits. Erskine homes have been helped to provide supported accommodation through a pilot that provides five cottages alongside welfare, retraining and employment advice for recently discharged service personnel.

The resources are rightly targeted at projects and organisations that work directly with veterans and their families. The fund complements the veterans challenge fund, which is administered by the Ministry of Defence.

Other initiatives include funding of £1.2 million for the Combat Stress initiative to support mental health services for veterans; more than £500,000 to fund the Combat Stress outreach service; an investment of £2.3 million to support the Scottish Veterans Residence to build 50 flats in Glasgow; and the introduction of concessionary bus travel for injured veterans. All those measures have been supported by the Scottish Government to improve the lives of our veterans.

I also highlight the valuable work undertaken by Edinburgh Napier University at the military rehabilitation, assessment and research centre at Napier’s Sighthill campus and welcome the centre’s director, Chris Connaboy, who is in the public gallery. I am grateful to my parliamentary colleague Gordon MacDonald for his on-going interest in the centre’s work. Its long-term vision is to become a centre of excellence in, among other things, providing the best clinical assessments for injured service personnel and conducting cutting-edge research to enhance the performance, care and rehabilitation of armed forces personnel. Edinburgh Napier University and the national state-of-the-art prosthetics group are working with NHS Lothian’s south-east mobility and rehabilitation technology—or SMART—centre in the grounds of the Astley Ainslie hospital in my constituency to develop the best future provision of military prosthetic care. I look forward to the publication in spring 2012 of the Scottish Government’s new strategy in response to the armed forces covenant that the Westminster Government is taking forward and to working with everyone who provides care and support to veterans and their families.

The motion calls for society to meet its debt to our ex-service community. In truth, that debt can never be repaid when judged against the sacrifices that have been made. However, as Richard Simpson suggested, we can unite as a Parliament to ensure that our remembrance day commemorations last beyond 11 November and that we provide the lifelong support that our veterans and their families deserve.

Elaine Murray (Labour, Dumfriesshire)

As 11 November approaches, it is, as other members have said, fitting that this Parliament remembers the sacrifices made by the men and women of the Scottish armed forces in conflicts past and present, during wartime and in their peacekeeping role, and recalls the suffering of their families and friends in their ever-present concern about their loved ones’ wellbeing—and, for some, in receiving the worst possible news.

Although we might as individuals have reservations about decisions to get involved in certain conflicts—I found it impossible to support my own Government over Iraq—any such reservations must never diminish the respect and gratitude that we owe our service personnel for their courage in carrying out the consequences of those decisions. In my first ever members business’ debate, which fell on the last armistice day of the 20th century, I sought an official pardon for the 39 Scottish soldiers and 260 soldiers from other parts of the British empire who were shot during the first world war for so-called cowardice—or what we now recognise as post-traumatic stress. Indeed, I think that that is the members’ business debate for which I have received most cross-party support. I am glad to say that a pardon was eventually announced by the then Secretary of State for Defence, Des Browne, in 2006. It was a long time coming, but it happened in the end.

Over the past century, we have come to understand that the scars our veterans bear can be psychological as well as physical. However, because the psychological scars are less clearly visible, the suffering that they cause is still not always well recognised. I wonder why that is—but then, of course, warfare has changed, from the battlefield warfare of previous generations, to the constant fear of death that may come from wherever. In the trenches of the first world war, people did not know when the shells were coming; in Afghanistan, people do not know when the sniper will fire, or when there will be a roadside bomb. That constant threat is bound to have a psychological effect on people.

As Richard Simpson said, the consequence of that pressure can persist for many years after active service has finished. It can result in mental ill health and addiction problems. Two of the persistent street drinkers in the town of Dumfries are former servicemen. Another, who has since died of his addictions, became a heroin addict and an alcoholic, and was often seen selling The Big Issue in the town. It is easy for us to condemn the antisocial behaviour that can result from those addictions, but the veterans’ addictions were the consequences of their experiences in the service of their country. They deserve far more than just our condemnation.

Fortunately, as others have said, many organisations are determined to make life better for our veterans. I pay tribute to a good friend and colleague of mine—Councillor Archie Dryburgh—who is Dumfries and Galloway Council’s veterans champion. Archie is a veteran himself, having served in Northern Ireland, and his son is on active service in Afghanistan. Archie is very proud of his military bearing. I have been on the campaign trail with him, and it is easy to tell that he is a military man from the way in which he campaigns—he works people very hard.

Archie has worked closely with Dumfries and Galloway Housing Partnership, which I believe is the first in Scotland to introduce a housing list for veterans—rather than simply dealing with veterans by accommodating them via the homelessness route. I understand that Glasgow Housing Association will shortly be announcing a similar policy, but DGHP got there first. I say “well done” to the people involved. A total of 1 per cent of DGHP properties each year—around 10 or 12—will be allocated to service personnel and their families. To qualify to join the list, applicants must be within one year of full discharge, within 6 months of having been discharged, or the surviving spouse or partner of a member of the armed forces who has died within the past six months. Among other things, that means that members of the armed services and their families will no longer have to become homeless after leaving the services, and will be able to transfer directly from their services accommodation to a registered social landlord.

Another example of good practice from my constituency is run by First Base Agency—not firm base but First Base—which has been working closely with Dumfries and Galloway Council. First Base Agency was formed to offer drug and alcohol addiction support services, especially to the families of people with addiction problems, although it is now involved in a number of other projects. The original contact with veterans involved those with addiction problems—mainly men aged 40 or over with service in Northern Ireland and Bosnia. At first, First Base provided them with a get-together over a fortnightly meal, but it then expanded its help.

Members who know Dumfries and Galloway may know of a former country house called Carnsalloch House in Kirkmahoe near Dumfries. It was purchased recently. The owner wanted to develop the ground for housing but was unable to get planning permission because it was on a flood plain. He therefore agreed to make the walled garden available to First Base for its veterans project. The veterans now grow vegetables, some of which go towards the food parcels that First Base provides to homeless people in crisis. The veterans also have a market for their vegetables, through one of the farm shops in Dumfries. They have also established a flock of free-range chickens, which produce eggs for sale at—I must say—considerably less than supermarket prices. I can well recommend them.

There is also a log project, which involves the chopping and selling of logs provided by the Forestry Commission. Again, those are sold for around half the price of commercially produced logs.

The projects aim to be self-financing. First Base is also considering the possibility of offering veterans from outwith Dumfries and Galloway the chance to come and stay and do some work.

The debate has been an opportunity for me not only to highlight some local initiatives that complement the actions that Government is taking to support our veterans, but to reflect on those things as we come up to remembrance day.

Fiona McLeod (Scottish National Party, Strathkelvin and Bearsden)

During the minister’s speech, Kevin Stewart intervened to raise the issue of the nuclear-test veterans. I take this opportunity to outline the background to the health problems from which those veterans are suffering.

One of the first letters that I received following my election was from a constituent congratulating me but also raising the issue of the nuclear-test veterans’ health problems. Members can imagine my horror when I delved into the background of the subject. Between 1952 and 1962, the UK and the United States of America exploded more than 40 nuclear test weapons in Australia and the Pacific. Twenty-two thousand UK service personnel, most of whom were on national service, were drafted in to witness the explosions, although it would be more appropriate to call them guinea pigs rather than witnesses. Back in those days, the health and safety advice to those personnel was that they should turn their backs and cover their eyes. Even worse, Royal Air Force planes were sent to fly into the huge radioactive dust clouds within two hours of the explosions.

Since the 1980s, there have been numerous studies on the health of nuclear-test veterans. Looking across them all, the most common health problems to appear in that group of people are leukaemia and multiple myelomas. The most recent survey, which was published on Monday, was a self-response survey in which letters were sent to nuclear-test veterans and focus groups were used. Ninety-one per cent of those people reported diagnoses of serious or long-term conditions following their service in the armed forces. Of the reported diagnoses, 60 per cent were of musculoskeletal problems, cardiac problems, genito-urinary tract problems, digestive tract problems and cancer. Those five conditions are all known to be linked to exposure to radiation.

Members have spoken of the debt of gratitude that we owe our service personnel, and this is an area in which our debt is enormous, as the figures show. Australia, New Zealand, the United States, Canada, Russia and France have all acknowledged that debt to their service personnel. Not only that—they have also accepted that they owe them compensation. Sadly, as Kevin Stewart highlighted in his intervention, that is not the case in the UK. The case is live at the moment, so I cannot comment on it in detail. Nevertheless, I highlight the fact that, so far, the UK MOD has spent £5 million in legal battles to prevent the nuclear-test veterans from claiming compensation, instead of just paying it.

Kevin Stewart (Scottish National Party, Aberdeen Central)

In addition to the countries on the list that Ms McLeod has cited, China has compensated some of its veterans. The Isle of Man, a dependency, has also compensated its veterans. The only country that has not done so thus far is the UK.

Fiona McLeod (Scottish National Party, Strathkelvin and Bearsden)

Mr Stewart is entirely correct and reminds me of something that I found out in the course of my research. The UK has compensated nuclear-test veterans, just not its own. In 1993, the UK Government gave the Australian Government £20 million ostensibly to clean up the Australian environment where we set off nuclear-test weapons. My first thought was that we could pay to clean up the environment but not to help our veterans who are suffering from ill health. However, when one delves into the issue, one finds that that £20 million was not just to clean up; it was also to indemnify the UK Government, through the Australian Government, against any claims for ill health in Australia resulting from what it had done in Australia. So, I advise Mr Stewart that the UK is on that list of countries—it just will not compensate its own veterans.

The nuclear-test veterans very much appreciated their meeting with the minister in August and they appreciate all the work that he is doing on their behalf, which he has outlined. I am sure that everyone will want to support the estimated 70 surviving nuclear-test veterans in Scotland in their continuing campaign for justice from the Ministry of Defence.

Margaret McDougall (Labour, West Scotland)

I welcome the opportunity to speak in this Scottish Government debate on veterans. I pay tribute to the brave men and women who currently serve in our armed forces as well as all the veterans who have served in past and present conflicts.

The British Legion representatives in Kilwinning, where I live, drew to my attention the fact that there is no Ministry of Defence hospital unit in Scotland. There are only five in the United Kingdom, and they are all based in England. That means that Scottish families of injured service personnel have huge distances to travel. Although they get financial assistance, that only applies to immediate family and does not include extended family members.

An MOD hospital in Scotland would make life much easier for injured personnel and their families. It would help to speed up their recovery and, hence, reduce their time in hospital. The United Kingdom Government has, so far, seemed sympathetic to the idea of basing an MOD hospital unit in Scotland, and Liam Fox confirmed that one would be built here. I hope that the Scottish Government is also supportive and that it will engage with and encourage NHS boards to ensure that a strong bid is submitted as part of the tendering process in 2013.

Keith Brown (Scottish National Party, Clackmannanshire and Dunblane)

I assure Margaret McDougall that we are supportive of that to the extent that we have already asked the UK Government for that kind of consideration. In particular, the armed forces and veterans advocate has met the surgeon general to discuss that point and received some assurances. We are interested in making progress on the matter.

Margaret McDougall (Labour, West Scotland)

I am pleased to hear that and welcome the minister’s comment.

However, as many members know, the care that Ministry of Defence hospital units offer is not available to veterans as, once they leave the forces, the MOD no longer provides their care. [Interruption.] Members must excuse me, as I have a head cold. The care that veterans receive usually falls to charitable organisations such as Combat Stress, about which we have already heard, and Erskine homes due to the complex and varied nature of the conditions from which veterans suffer and the care that they require.

Scotland has an estimated 400,000 veterans and the number grows by around 2,500 each year. Not every veteran in Scotland requires care, but many do, and they often require specialised treatment programmes. It is worrying to note that many remain untreated or are wrongly diagnosed, which complicates matters for them.

Combat Stress, which has been much lauded this morning, found that 81 per cent of the veterans who responded to its survey and who suffer from poor mental health feel ashamed or are too embarrassed to raise the issue. One in three failed to tell their family because of the fear of stigma or discrimination. As a result, they are reluctant to raise the issue with their GP or others who could offer them help.

I was pleased to hear the minister say that the Government is working closely with GPs. Could the Government look into the feasibility of identifying ex-service personnel in their GPs’ medical records? Such an approach would mean that the veterans could be referred to specialised services more quickly, as many GPs find it hard to identify the issues that military personnel face. It would also be beneficial to provide GPs with more education about military-related post-traumatic stress disorder.

Combat Stress has a treatment centre in Ayrshire that receives £1.2 million from the Scottish Government. That is only 60 per cent of its overall funding; the rest is raised through donations. The Scottish Government also funds one of Combat Stress’s two community outreach teams, which provide care to veterans in their own homes.

Veterans who live in remote parts of Scotland, such as the Western Isles and northern Scotland, are more at risk, because many of them miss out on care and support.

A holistic approach to treating veterans is urgently needed to ensure that they and their families are provided with the most comprehensive support possible. I ask the Government to consider supporting the rolling out of Combat Stress’s six-week treatment scheme. That scheme helps veterans who have the severest forms of post-traumatic stress disorder, which often leads to depression and substance or alcohol abuse. It provides highly structured treatment programmes that are tailored to those who are most in need.

A lot of good work is being done, but there is still a lot more to do. Unfortunately, time constraints have meant that I could not talk about all the issues this morning. I urge the Government to support the establishment of an MOD hospital. I was pleased to hear about work on that and I look forward to progress being made. I ask the Government to develop a more holistic approach that provides a comprehensive support system, so that veterans and their families can access treatment and support easily and no longer feel stigmatised in doing so.

Jamie Hepburn (Scottish National Party, Cumbernauld and Kilsyth)

I welcome the tenor of the debate, which has been consensual. That reflects the fact that, across the chamber, we all recognise the importance of supporting veterans. The debate is timely. It is just over a week until remembrance Sunday, when we will all go to remembrance events, so it is right to have the debate now.

There can be no family in Scotland that has no family member who has served in the forces. Richard Simpson spoke tellingly about the severe impact on a family when a family member serves in the forces and the worst comes to the worst.

In my family, my grandfather was a Seaforth Highlander—he was one of Montgomery’s highway decorators in the second world war. His father fought in the Boer war and the first world war and received the freedom of Dumbarton for his service in the Boer war—a plaque to commemorate that hung proudly on my grandparents’ wall for many years.

My grandfather’s generation was magnificent and was part of the generation who defeated fascism in Europe. In the post-war era, those veterans combined to build a better society, and the first drive took place for veterans to get a better deal. That was possible largely because many veterans came out of the second world war. Veterans are fewer now, which is why we must recognise their importance in our society. Their number is not particularly big these days, so they need people to look out for them.

Keith Brown was right to say that veterans in our society are not just old men who gather to mark battles that are long past. Unfortunately, war seems to be ever present in this world. In recent years, wars have taken place in Iraq and Afghanistan. Before that, we had the war in the Balkans, the Gulf war and the Falklands battle, in which the minister saw active service. He is one of the few members to have seen active military service.

Whatever our views are on the circumstances of individual wars—many of us, including me, opposed the war in Iraq and were concerned about the direction of the war in Afghanistan—it is right to support the veterans who have fought in them. I spoke of my great-grandfather. I happen to think that the two wars in which he fought—the Boer war and the first world war—were gross imperial misadventures, but we must separate our view about a war from our approach to those who fought in it. We can still be proud of people’s service and recognise that those who served deserve support.

The Scottish Government has a good record on supporting veterans. The Administration has taken several actions, such as extending the concessionary bus travel scheme to include injured veterans and giving priority NHS treatment to veterans for service-related health issues.

The Government has also established the Scottish veterans fund and provided funding of £1.2 million for Combat Stress to support mental health services for veterans. Legislation has been used to make it easier for veterans to establish local connections to access housing. Several initiatives have been taken, some smaller and some greater but, combined, they go some way towards recognising the depth of society’s debt to those who have served in the military.

Support has been provided to bodies that do good work with veterans. Elaine Murray spoke about some of the organisations that work with veterans, many of whom experience great challenges. For example, the Government gave £10,000 to Erskine for a supported accommodation pilot involving five cottages alongside welfare, retraining and employment advice for recently discharged service personnel. That support for Erskine would meet with my grandfather’s approval, as he was an enthusiastic supporter of the charity and left a bequest for it in his will. Funding of £7,000 was provided for the Lady Haig Poppy Factory for a mobile museum tour to engage children with the poppy appeal. It is important that we help young people to understand the role that veterans have played in shaping the world that they live in.

Various other projects have been supported. The annual report on Scottish Government support for our armed forces and veterans community sets out a number of areas in which great progress has been made.

As ever in such debates, time is running out, so I will come to a close. The Scottish Government has a strong record but, lest we fall into complacency, we should recognise that more must be done. That is why I welcome the new strategy that will be published in the spring of next year, which Jim Eadie mentioned. I look forward to seeing the further actions that it contains, although we should recognise that offering all the necessary support to veterans is a circle that might never be squared, because the debt that is owed is so great that we can probably never do enough. I welcome the work that has been done and look forward to the work that will be done in future.

Elizabeth Smith (Conservative, Mid Scotland and Fife)

I remember an elderly veteran telling me five or six years ago that he was worried that, in the course of time, armistice day, as he described it, would cease to have such national significance and that, as future generations succeed those who were on the front line in the two world wars and the families of those soldiers, it will become much harder to convey the meaning and true spirit of remembrance. It was a perfectly logical concern but, although I do not doubt that changes will probably occur decades on, I am absolutely certain that future generations can be relied on whole-heartedly never to forget the sacrifice of their forebears, especially if our young people are anything to go by. Indeed, based on the past few years, I would say that there is a heightened rather than a diminished awareness among young people of what remembrance means.

Just last week, I witnessed two groundbreaking school projects in action, both of which asked young people to become much more actively involved in supporting remembrance activities in their local communities, and not just during the month of November, but permanently. At one school, pupils were actively engaged in finding out more about the names on a local war memorial and were contacting their local council and the Royal British Legion to find out how they could participate in the on-going care of the monument and its surrounding gardens. They had been inspired by the UK Government initiative in the run-up to the 100th anniversary of the start of the first world war in 2014, which will provide opportunities for young people to adopt a war memorial. At another school, research was under way to identify just how many veterans and their families are in the local community and what support could be given to them through the community service part of the Duke of Edinburgh’s award scheme.

Although schools have always played an important role in the historical understanding of war—ancient or recent—awareness is growing of the need to involve schools more permanently in their local communities to support all those who have been affected by the experience of war, which is something that has poignancy all year round, not just at this time of year.

As other members have already said, this year marks the 90th anniversary of the poppy appeal and that, too, has seen an increase in local schools’ interest in visiting the Lady Haig Poppy Factory in Edinburgh, which gives pupils an insight into the issues that confront veterans and their families and the many people whose job it is to look after them and help them to readjust to civilian life. The technology of war might have changed beyond all recognition in that 90-year period, but the issues that face our armed services as they return from battle are, in some cases, remarkably similar to what they would have been 90 years ago. Our young people, in the main, have a very mature grasp of that fact.

I take the opportunity to put on record our thanks to Poppyscotland for its outstanding work. We are humbled, not only by the scale of veterans’ achievement, but also by their experiences, and by the fact that they have taken up so many imaginative projects to ensure that young people are fully and meaningfully engaged in the process of remembrance.

Helen Eadie (Labour, Cowdenbeath)

I visited Poppyscotland on Monday and was told that one of the best ways in which our Government can remember the nation’s veterans is by continuing to support the supported businesses. As Liz Smith knows, 2,500 men and women will be made redundant and 54 sheltered businesses will be closed in the United Kingdom by 2014, the anniversary that she spoke about. Will she join me in making representations to our Government about that backwards step?

Elizabeth Smith (Conservative, Mid Scotland and Fife)

In the spirit of consensus, I say that it is important to look at employment issues and the educational purpose of the remembrance spirit and what it is all about and that, yes, I will make representations, but it is important that we do so on a non-party-political basis. The spirit of remembrance transcends all political boundaries in this country.

Of course, the other reason why young people have greater contact with the war experience is because they see so many veterans, not much older than themselves, of the front line in Afghanistan and other theatres of war around the world. If they do not meet those soldiers personally, through the many school links and programmes, various social media bring them closer to those soldiers’ experiences and provide them with much more up-to-date feedback on what the war meant for them and their families. They see extraordinary feats—whether an expedition to the Antarctic or rowing the Atlantic—by men and women who have been seriously wounded, and they connect with and are inspired by their bravery in the same way as their grandparents and great-grandparents did and were years ago.

Each year, the nation rightly pays its respects to all who have made the ultimate sacrifice and to the families who are left behind, and each year we rightly express our unequivocal support for our armed forces wherever they might be deployed. Wearing a poppy might be a simple act, but it unites us all in our remembrance and gratitude—and it also makes a huge difference to those who serve in the armed forces. Our young people, just as much as those of us who are older, have an acute understanding of what the poppy means and we should be greatly encouraged by many of their acts of remembrance in our local schools.

Paul Wheelhouse (Scottish National Party, South Scotland)

As a member of the cross-party group for armed forces veterans, I welcome the debate and certainly welcome its bipartisan nature. In my own parish of Ayton in the Scottish Borders, there are 45 names—of a total population of men, women and children of less than 1,000—on the village war memorial from the so-called great war and a further 15 from the second world war.

A total of 150,000 Scottish fatalities in the great war out of 889,000 UK casualties are recorded in the national book of remembrance. We paid a heavy price in Scottish lives. Many thousands also returned with horrific injuries and, as Elaine Murray said, post-traumatic stress disorders.

It is easy to view this discussion and the events in remembrance week through the prism of history. Quite rightly at this time of year, we look back and remember the hundreds of thousands of men and women who have made the ultimate sacrifice during times of conflict. However, the consequences of war continue to present society with enormous problems long after the artillery has fallen silent. There is every bit as much need for support for veterans who are returning from present-day conflicts, as Keith Brown and Richard Simpson outlined. My cousin, who is a Territorial Army serviceman, recently returned from Afghanistan, so the issue is very much a present-day one for me.

Out of respect for the work that such men and women do on our behalf, it is our duty to support them in the countless challenges that they face. I am sure that all members will agree that we as a Parliament have an obligation to support our veterans and their families in whatever ways we can within our devolved responsibilities. Although there might be disagreements about the legitimacy of conflicts past and present, there is almost uniform support for the troops, who conduct themselves with great professionalism and courage.

It would be churlish to engage in party-political posturing at this time, but I would suggest that although the UK coalition Government is not intentionally creating problems for our veterans, there is a risk that some veterans, particularly those with disabilities, will suffer as a consequence of the reforms to the welfare system. I urge the UK Government to reflect on the impact of those reforms on veterans in particular and, where required, to reverse any decisions that will make life more difficult for the military men and women who have given us so much through their service.

I am pleased that the Scottish Government welcomes and fully endorses the military covenant. I am sure that the Parliament will welcome the written answer that the minister gave Nanette Milne earlier this year, which set out the details of a new strategy to support veterans and their families, which will be announced next spring.

The armed forces have traditionally formed an important part of the social fabric of the South Scotland region, which I represent. Indeed, 16 per cent of all Scotland’s armed forces pensioners live in that region. In the Borders alone, there are 695 registered armed forces pensioners and each year there is a constant flow of new pensioners—there have been 50 new armed forces discharges in the Borders in the past 12 months.

Veterans affairs remain a reserved matter in many ways, but the initiatives that the Scottish Government has taken in devolved areas are tremendously helpful; indeed, they are essential steps in the right direction and towards completing the package of care and support that we owe our servicemen and women. I will not go over in detail the various means by which we support veterans, which others have mentioned, but the veterans fund and the extension of the low-cost initiative for first-time buyers have been very helpful. The support to combat stress is of particular benefit. I note that Combat Stress has said that it is supporting 18 veterans in the Borders, but that is very much just the tip of the iceberg, because there are many more who do not come forward for support.

Liz Smith touched on employability, which I hope we will discuss in further detail in the CPG. We have to do more as a country to support veterans back into work. In many cases, veterans have to deal with mental health disorders or indeed difficulties in adjusting from an institutional environment back to civvy street. We can do much more to recognise the undoubted transferable skills that veterans have, such as their discipline, reliability, ability to work as part of a team and ability to use their initiative in stressful situations. Those are all important transferable skills that the labour market should value. We can do much more to recognise and enhance those skills, to ensure that veterans gain valuable employment.

We as a society owe our veterans so much. I am very proud that this Parliament and the Scottish Government have recognised the debt that we owe and I hope to play my part, through the CPG led by Alex Fergusson, in ensuring that we do all that we can to address the challenges that our veterans face.

Tavish Scott (Liberal Democrat, Shetland Islands)

The psychological and emotional turmoil of those who have served and fought and seen the unspeakable is, above all, where wider society must provide assistance and support.

This debate, the minister’s strong introduction and contributions from across the parties all demonstrate the commitment of Parliament and the Government to work with veterans across Scotland. I thank Alex Fergusson in particular for mentioning the work that my good friend, Jeremy Purvis, did in the previous session through the cross-party group and in highlighting the issues that veterans face, and I am grateful that the minister mentioned the cross-party work that has been done. The cross-party group that Alex Fergusson chairs and others are strongly committed to, and the minister’s personal and worthy commitment to this area, show Parliament and Government in a good light.

I want to concentrate on the mental turmoil of ex-servicemen, which shows why the next generation must learn, inquire and study these issues—as Liz Smith and others have mentioned—if only to try to avoid the terrible mistakes that history tells us we repeat again and again.

Like most—if not all—primary schools across Scotland, in its teaching of aspects of what has gone before, Bells Brae primary school encourages its youngsters to look at areas of war. Inevitably, children who are brought up in an island community learn about the sea and the Royal Navy in particular, but they also look at the interaction between the Royal Navy and the other forces. A few years ago, that manifested itself in a great project that the pupils did on the D-day landings in Normandy. When my son, who was then in primary 6, came home from school one night, he spoke to me on the phone—as has often been the case for the past 12 years—and demanded that we go on a family visit to Normandy to see the site itself. I thought that that was a pretty brave thing for a 10-year-old to want to do. We went there, and I have two abiding memories of visiting Normandy and the landing beaches. The first is of the British cemetery at Bayeux, which cannot fail to move anyone who sees it. Carved on the grave stones are not only the soldiers’ names and the insignia of regiments from Scotland and across the country but the ages of the individuals, the majority of whom, with the exception of some older officers, are 16, 17 and 18 years old. Walking around those serried ranks of grave stones with one’s children has an impact—of that there can be no doubt.

As Richard Simpson and other members have said, every family—and mine is no different—has a connection back to times when we were at war or, sadly, to a current war. My second abiding memory relates to my great-uncle, who was a British Army surgeon. He crossed gold beach on the afternoon of 6 June 1944. On D-day plus 2, he lost his arm just below the shoulder to a German mine and was inevitably invalided home. He often remarked to my grandmother, “I’m one of the lucky ones. In those few days of intense initial fighting, I lost something, but I did get home.”

We took the kids down to gold beach. It was a beautiful July morning, the sun was shining and it was warm. We walked out across the sand from the beautiful French village of Arromanches and looked back. It is at that point that one is struck by what it must have been like to have been pitched out of a landing craft onto those beaches, with everything that was going on. We have all seen the movie. To imagine the shellfire, the extraordinary weight that the soldiers were carrying, the rifles, the adrenalin and—yes—the fear and then to imagine the charge up that beach to the pillboxes and the German defences along the beach, some of which remain to this day, is incredibly and powerfully moving. If we want to ensure that the next generation understands what happened and learns from it, we can do no better than to take them to some of those sites and ensure that they see what young men—and, indeed, women—had to put up with in those extraordinary initial hours of freeing Europe from tyranny and all that went with it.

The best ministerial visit that I ever undertook was to Telavåg, on the west coast of Norway. I went there in 2005 with the British ambassador, some pupils from Scalloway junior high school and the convener of Shetland Islands Council. I was there to represent my constituency and the Government on the 60th anniversary of the Shetland bus.

For those members who are not familiar with the extraordinary bravery of those who were involved in the Shetland bus, I should say that it is simply how we ensured that commanders in British forces were able to get into Nazi-held Norway and, at the same time, were able to ensure that Norwegians, who were under enormous pressure, were able to leave Norway. Telavåg was devastated by war. Its men were marched off to a concentration camp and its women and children were interned in Hardanger because of the shooting of two Gestapo officers by some Norwegian resistance fighters who were shipped into Norway from Shetland.

However, the next generation got it, and they got it mostly because they sat down with some old men in the museum in Telavåg during the lunch that was laid on for the visiting party, and those men, who are all in their 80s now, described what happened when the men were marched off and taken into internship. I can tell members that one could have heard a pin drop when the youngsters were listening to those stories.

We can reflect, we do reflect, and we do learn. That is very much part of ensuring that veterans of today and yesterday know that this generation and coming generations care deeply about what they did and what they fought for, and that in the future we will not forget.

Linda Fabiani (Scottish National Party, East Kilbride)

I welcome this debate, as I welcome all the veterans initiatives that the Scottish Government has taken since 2007.

In 2007, I was honoured to be asked to unveil a memorial to the Scots who fell in Flanders in world war one. Although I knew that it would be emotional, I was truly unprepared for the depth of emotion that I would feel at the needless carnage and the continuing effect that the severe loss of young life has had on the future of our communities, our towns and cities and our nation. Regardless of our personal views on the rights and wrongs of any war, as a nation we respect those who fall in the line of duty in conflict, and on remembrance Sunday this month we will publicly show that respect, lest we forget.

Those who continue to serve should not be forgotten and those who have served and retired to civilian life should not be forgotten or neglected either. Many men and women who leave the services slot back into civilian life with seeming ease, but some do not. The reasons are many and varied and can be physical or non-physical. It is not for us to judge them, but we should deal with them because we have ignored them for too long. It is right that there is a degree of unanimity in the Parliament on supporting the initiatives that the minister outlined today.

The Scottish veterans fund was designed to run as a complementary programme to the veterans challenge fund, which is administered by the UK Ministry of Defence. The introduction of the Scottish veterans fund, which was launched in May 2008, marked the first time that services for ex-servicemen and women had been provided directly through Scottish Government funding. The fund covers healthcare, transport, education, justice and housing, among other things.

As a former housing professional, I particularly welcome the housing strand of the veterans policy. In my job in housing, I often felt helpless and frustrated at being unable to assist or, indeed, prioritise applicants and families who were leaving forces’ accommodation and trying to settle in social housing, although I am sure that I did not feel as helpless and frustrated as the families. The housing situation for single men and women trying to fit into civilian life was really difficult, so it is right that that difficulty is being addressed somewhat.

We have heard much this morning about the physical and mental health of veterans. Sadly, among affected veterans, as in our society in general, there is a particular stigma attached to the breakdown of mental health. As members have noted, that is evidenced by post-traumatic stress being masked by drugs and alcohol. Although I do not remember the figures, I remember an interesting members’ business debate that Angela Constance secured some time ago on the subject of veterans who end up in prison and the mental health issues that are involved.

All in all, there is much more to be done and I await the minister’s review. I wonder whether it will consider further how veterans’ experience can be put to good use by being passed on to others. I do not mean that it should merely be passed on to fellow veterans; it could be used more generally. I am sure that many young people would benefit from the experience of those who have served in the armed forces. Veterans’ experiences—not just the traumatic ones, but those that taught them skills in sport and fitness and in conflict resolution—are very precious. This is just a thought, but perhaps some of the cashback for communities fund could be well used in that regard.

I mentioned earlier that we must mind the rights of serving personnel and of those who die while in the armed forces but not in conflict. The armed forces in general are a reserved matter, but I hope that the UK Government and Scottish Government discuss jointly concerns about our army, navy and air force personnel, as they do concerns about veterans, and act jointly to improve services and treat the issues. I raise that point today as I am dealing with the family of a young deceased serviceman and I am extremely perturbed at the experience the family has had and is having of not just military services but civilian services. I shall say no more today, because the issue is very personal to them, but will the minister agree to meet to discuss those issues further?

With remembrance week in mind, I conclude with a tribute to Mr Andrew Nicoll of Annan, Dumfriesshire. I know that Elaine Murray will know him well. Andrew and his colleagues are the veterans of the jungle conflicts that followed world war two in Malaysia and Borneo. Following a six-year campaign that they brought to the Public Petitions Committee of this Parliament, which many members of the Scottish Parliament dealt with by writing to Westminster, Mr Nicoll has told me that at last the Pingat Jasa Malaysia medal can be worn with pride, with royal authority and without restriction. That will happen for the first time on remembrance Sunday 2011. We should all respect the work of Mr Nicoll and his colleagues. Respect for veterans goes right across society.

Neil Bibby (Labour, West Scotland)

It is a privilege to speak in the debate today and to pay tribute to our veterans. As others have mentioned, veterans are traditionally thought of in terms of those who fought in the major armed conflicts of the 20th century: the two world wars and, to a lesser extent, the Korean war. Unfortunately, that is no longer the case. All Scots are aware of the involvement of our armed forces in Northern Ireland, Iraq and Afghanistan. We must also remember those whom we have asked to protect human rights and defend the rule of law in areas such as Bosnia, Kosovo, East Timor and Sierra Leone. As many members have mentioned this morning, those who serve our country do not make decisions on areas of conflict or our role in engaging in it. Politicians decide where and when our armed forces serve the interests of our nation. We require not that they are concerned with the rights and wrongs of conflict, only that they carry out the tasks that are given to them efficiently and effectively. The armed forces make sacrifices on our behalf that have short or even long-term consequences for individuals and their families and some even make the ultimate sacrifice.

In this debate, we must also recognise the numerous organisations that ceaselessly support, advise and fight for the rights of our veterans. Organisations such as Poppyscotland, Veterans Scotland and the Royal British Legion seek to enhance the welfare and wellbeing of the veterans community and—most important for Scotland—an organisation in my own region, Erskine, has been looking after our veterans for almost 100 years and is the leading care organisation for ex-servicemen and women.

Others in this chamber can offer greater insight into the work of Erskine than I can. I know that my colleague Hugh Henry grew up in one of the homes for ex-servicemen within the grounds of the former Erskine hospital. His father paid for his years interned in a prisoner-of-war camp in what was then the East Indies and is now Indonesia with lasting ill health and Erskine provided the support that he and his family needed. That support is still needed today, perhaps more than ever, by this generation of veterans, and Erskine has developed its service to include four satellite homes in Erskine, Glasgow and Edinburgh. It has also revamped the main Erskine home, with its newly upgraded veterans’ cottages, commercial garden centre and stores. I am glad that the new chief executive, Steve Conway, has vowed that the organisation will continue to provide the highest level of service to the veteran community.

We must also recognise the smaller clubs and societies throughout Scotland, such as the United Services Club in Johnstone—which I visited on Sunday—that provide a community focus for support and companionship for our veterans in their own communities.

I welcome developments by the Government and projects such as the roll-out of training on fitting and maintaining specialist prosthetic limbs, the specialist treatment centre for combat stress and improved community outreach and welfare services across Scotland. However, we must continue to ask ourselves whether we are doing enough.

Many veterans need help when they make the transition to civilian life. Some will need help with physical disabilities but, as others have mentioned, some scars are hidden, with only the ex-servicemen and their families aware of how they affect their daily lives.

I was dismayed to learn from Poppyscotland that recent research showed that some 350,000 members of the veterans community have potential welfare needs. It also showed that, in Scotland, veterans are 10 per cent more likely to become homeless, 8 per cent more likely to suffer from mental health problems and 3 per cent more likely to suffer from alcohol problems than they are anywhere else in the UK. In addition, although the number of individuals who receive a one-off financial grant from Poppyscotland has fallen by 10 per cent since 2002, the average amount that is required in each case has increased by 66 per cent. We know, too, that in the period from 2007 to 2010 more than 13,000 British forces personnel have been assessed as suffering from mental health disorders before leaving the services. Given that veterans in Scotland are still suffering—and are perhaps doing so disproportionately in comparison with veterans in the rest of the UK—I must ask the question, is our response good enough?

If the experience of one family from my area is to be considered, the answer is no. The ex-serviceman in question was suffering from combat stress, which affected his behaviour until family life became a nightmare for all concerned. His condition worsened until he was hospitalised in a specialist NHS mental health facility. He was placed in a ward with people who were being treated for alcohol and drug dependency. His wife described the treatment that he received as medication and sedation. He was given drugs that stopped the outward manifestation of his combat stress, but which did not help the problem. The family found that he had access to private health insurance through his work and they moved him to a private facility, where he received appropriate treatment and could return to his family able to cope. How does the Government intend to ensure that such families do not continue to suffer?

The odd, good-natured, verbal skirmish at elections aside, I have never had to test myself in conflict. I am lucky, as are most of us here today. We owe a debt of gratitude to those who have put themselves in the line of fire on our behalf. We owe our veterans security when they need it. We owe them decent housing that is suitable to their needs. We owe them and their families the opportunity to make a living or to obtain financial support if employment is not an option. We owe them appropriate medical care whether for body or mind. We owe them professionals who are trained to recognise their particular conditions and needs, and who can deal with them effectively. We owe them support and companionship. We owe them education and re-education when it is needed. We owe the excellent charitable organisations that support our veterans the security of knowing that they can continue their work without the threat of closure or contraction.

Derek Mackay (Scottish National Party, Renfrewshire North and West)

I suppose that I belong to the same generation as Neil Bibby, as well as being from the same area. I have found the cross-party nature of the debate and the contributions that have been made in it quite inspiring, and I do not feel worthy to take part in it, in the same way that I do not feel worthy on remembrance Sunday, when I lay a wreath on behalf of civic society. I do not feel worthy because I have not had to serve; I have not gone through what must be the hell of conflict. When I lay that wreath, I do it with a great burden on my shoulders, thinking about the sacrifice that other people have made.

Although we must remember the dead, we must respect the living and deliver for those who come back and their families, because it is clear that conflict has a much wider impact than we realise. Many would say that my generation has had it easy. Tell that to a soldier who has come back from Afghanistan, Iraq, the Falklands or wherever. We have it easy in one respect—we are not called to serve in the way that people were in the first and second world wars.

The term veteran conjures up a vision of an old man, but I checked the dictionary and it can simply mean someone who has served. They can be 21 and be a veteran. The reason I checked the definition of veteran was that I was described as a Scottish National Party veteran. I thought, “I’ve aged awfy quickly,” but of course it is about service and not necessarily age.

I had a disappointing experience recently. Four years ago, a young chap came into the campaign offices during the election. He was looking for a form to register to vote, and he wanted to do his civic duty: to vote and then to join the Army. He did both. I saw him recently and he has left the Army. I asked him whether he was going to vote in the next election. He said, “I’m not sure if I’m registered because I’m homeless.” I made sure that he was housed, but I wondered why he was in that situation. Why was the discharge not good enough to ensure that he had a roof over his head? I do not know exactly what was wrong but we fixed the problem.

It goes back to the point made by the minister and others about awareness of eligibility and entitlements. We need to ensure that that awareness is good enough and that our service personnel get access to what they are entitled to. I look forward to the Scottish Government’s new strategy in spring 2012. It would do well to address the gaps that have been mentioned as part of the debate. The UK Government would also do well to learn from the debate, leave aside the knockabout politics and take up the genuine issues.

I compliment the work of all the charities involved. It is a poor reflection on society that we leave support for our veterans to charitable contributions. A councillor from Paisley once said to me, “We should turn it on its head. We’ll run the charity shops to pay for Trident and we’ll pay for the service personnel.” Although I say that in jest, I wonder why we sometimes allow our charities to pick up the pieces.

The charities are competing with each other more than they have to. I would like more joint working, because it would be a tragedy if some services were discontinued because one charity was outbid or outmarketed by another charity. There are many charities for veterans, all doing great work, including Help for Heroes, the Royal British Legion, Poppyscotland and Erskine. Erskine, which does fantastic work, is in my constituency in Renfrewshire North and West. It is a humbling experience to visit it. I went there with the minister and the First Minister. We could not get the First Minister away, not just because of the incredible stories that we were being told but because he had a microphone and was calling the numbers at the bingo.

I say that in all seriousness because when we hear the stories of sacrifices that have been made and of people’s life experiences, we cannot be anything other than humbled. We have a policy duty as well as a civic duty to ensure that we give 100 per cent support.

In recognising the contribution of service personnel, I shall be parochial for a moment. Renfrewshire has more recipients of the Victoria cross—the highest medal of honour in the Commonwealth—than any other part of the Commonwealth. There are six recipients from Renfrewshire. One of them was Hugh McIver, who died at the age of 21. I went to a ceremony in France to recognise Hugh McIver’s efforts. There was no monument in Scotland for him but the French recognise him. It is typical that we sometimes do not recognise the contribution of our own in the way that others do.

Linda Fabiani (Scottish National Party, East Kilbride)

I mentioned that I unveiled the memorial to the Scots fallen in Flanders. It was the Flanders people who campaigned and fundraised for the memorial.

Derek Mackay (Scottish National Party, Renfrewshire North and West)

That illustrates my point. We need to do more to recognise the sacrifice not just of the dead but of the living. In Renfrewshire, the veterans’ champion is the provost of Renfrewshire. I know that every local authority has a veterans’ champion. It is not just about platitudes. It has to be about recognition, delivery and support. It is important that the most senior civic figure in Renfrewshire was made veterans’ champion.

We have many modern-day heroes. Some of the soldiers I know have come back from conflict having done their duty and the first thing they do is organise fundraisers for local projects and charities. They serve and they are pleased to serve, then they come back and continue in their civic duty. We in the Parliament need to live up to our duty to ensure that they get all the support that they deserve.

Dennis Robertson (Scottish National Party, Aberdeenshire West)

We have heard about the debts of gratitude that we owe our serving personnel and all our veterans. I echo that sentiment.

I will soon be able to attend a remembrance service and lay a wreath on behalf of the Parliament for the very first time in Aboyne in my constituency, and I will feel extremely honoured to do so. However, I will look back then and remember the pointlessness of conflicts that our service personnel are asked to go into.

I want to focus on two particular organisations that help our veterans. I am glad that the minister and other members recognise that veterans are not just stereotypical old men who share stories with their families and comrades; we recognise with great emotion that many of our veterans are in their teens. HorseBack UK in my Aberdeenshire West constituency is for serving personnel and veterans. It considers the therapeutic aspect of rehabilitation for many of our youngsters who are trying to regain respect and dignity and to understand what has happened to them in their young lives. They went into the service to do the job that they wished to do in serving their country, and had to leave it at a very tender age because of their disability.

Coming to terms with disability is not easy for many of our service personnel, and we probably do not do quite enough to ensure that they get the respect that they deserve and that there are rehabilitation facilities for them to get back into the community and serve society. I am grateful to Dr Simpson for raising the issue of the impact on families. Many of our service personnel have had to endure post-traumatic stress. I ask the minister to visit HorseBack UK in my constituency to see the good work that it has done, as there is a personal invitation to him. I am grateful to Linda Fabiani for saying that perhaps more needs to be done to ensure that our service personnel are recognised in our communities. That is exactly what HorseBack UK does.

Churchill said:

“There is something about the outside of a horse that is good for the inside of a man.”

Basically, HorseBack UK takes a therapeutic approach to rehabilitation. The horses seem to have an absolute sense, which we perhaps cannot understand, that the men and women there have a disability or impairment or a situation that we cannot understand. They seem to acknowledge that, and the work that is being done needs to be applauded. People are introduced back into society and communities. There is work with gamekeepers, dry-stone dykers and ghillies in the organisation. It is a matter of working in the community. It is about putting servicemen and women back into society, giving them a sense of respect and purpose, and addressing stigma.

One of the huge drawbacks in the rehabilitative programme is the Department for Work and Pensions. Service personnel and veterans who attend such programmes are basically told that they can be there for a week, otherwise their benefits will be affected. It takes more than one week to rehabilitate. I ask that we make a representation to the UK Government and especially the Department for Work and Pensions that, for any veteran attending a rehabilitation programme who is on benefits, the benefits are continued and support is given.

The second organisation that I want to highlight is Scottish War Blinded, which is in West Lothian. A new state-of-the-art centre was opened in Linburn on 11 June this year by the Duke of Gloucester. If members could find time to visit the centre, they would see the absolutely fantastic work that goes on there. There is therapy, but it is also about introducing people back into society, addressing many of the problems that a lot of service personnel have.

I particularly congratulate Scottish War Blinded on focusing on those personnel who have acquired sight loss at a later age, rather than during conflict or when they served their country. They have perhaps acquired sight loss because of age, for instance. The organisation supports people in community and outreach projects and complements a lot of the work that the social care sector does in our communities. Scottish War Blinded provides grants, rehabilitation, expertise and, quite often, just companionship.

Elaine Smith (Labour, Coatbridge and Chryston)

Mr Robertson, can you begin to conclude, please?

Dennis Robertson (Scottish National Party, Aberdeenshire West)

Thank you. I fully respect our service personnel. We all owe a great deal of gratitude to those who have fallen and to our veterans, who are looking for our support.

Margaret McCulloch (Labour, Central Scotland)

Like other members, I begin by putting on record my thanks and appreciation for the work of our servicemen and women, past and present. We expect a great deal from our armed forces and expect them to put their personal safety and even their lives on the line in the service of others. We expect them to act with exceptional bravery, of a kind many of us have never witnessed and can only imagine, and expect professionalism from our services in even the most adverse conditions.

I am proud of our armed forces, not just because they meet our high expectations, but because they so often exceed them. We have every reason to be proud of our armed forces and we should never be ashamed to celebrate their selflessness or their service. Thousands upon thousands have served in our military through the years in a range of operations in times of war and in reconstruction and peacekeeping, too. It is only fitting that their contribution is recognised by the state and by the people. That is why I am so pleased with the uptake of the HM armed forces veteran lapel badge since 2004. I am also delighted to speak in the debate, because my grandfather, like Jamie Hepburn’s, was in the Seaforth Highlanders and my father was a Bevan boy in world war two.

I add my voice to those calling for a Ministry of Defence hospital unit in Scotland. The benefits of a new unit in Scotland have already been outlined in the debate and I think that the case for it has been made very well. I remind members that all existing MOD hospital units are located in England, so there is a real strain on veterans, who are treated some distance from their home, and on their families, who have to travel to be with their loved ones.

I hope that as a result of this debate the Scottish Government will look into whether we have the capacity in the national health service in Scotland to support a new Ministry of Defence hospital unit here. If we have the capacity, I hope that local health boards will prepare a case for a hospital unit in their areas and take the matter up with the UK Government. There is no reason why we could not have a Ministry of Defence hospital unit in Scotland within the next few years. I encourage the Scottish Government to join with the Royal British Legion and the veterans’ community in attempting to secure such a new facility.

Every party went into the last election promising to do more to join up services from healthcare and social work to education and welfare. It is a common topic in Finance Committee round tables and in Scottish Government publications and it is an agenda that we must take forward if we are to improve public services and outcomes for the service users. Where veterans are concerned, especially those who have been injured in service, we must ensure that public services in Scotland are joined up with the Ministry of Defence and the armed forces in order to ensure a good, consistent and uninterrupted level of service.

War can have a profound physical and psychological impact on our servicemen and women and sometimes the symptoms of a health problem or mental health issue can be difficult to detect, or might not materialise for several years. The Finance Committee has done a significant amount of work on preventative spending. If we were to apply the logic of early intervention to veterans’ affairs, we would develop better means of support for the transition from the services to civilian life. That would help prevent some of the health and social problems that face our veterans. As I have learned, many of the quality-of-life issues and issues around integration into the community that veterans face can be addressed through practical interventions at that vital transitional stage.

Work is already being done in service. The Ministry of Defence and its partners have said publicly that they aim to work with troops while they are still serving and gradually help them readjust to civilian life. However, I have heard that just 60 per cent of those leaving the armed forces access resettlement support. That means that 40 per cent, who could be leaving for reasons ranging from natural progression to a medical discharge, do not access the help that is available to them. I hope that there are lines of communication between the UK Government, the Scottish Government and the very sizeable voluntary sector in this field to ensure that veterans throughout the UK can find support to gain employment, find a home or access health and social work services.

Derek Mackay (Scottish National Party, Renfrewshire North and West)

Does the member welcome the group that has been established by the Scottish Government and which brings together health, local authorities, MOD and other partners to ensure a top-level strategic approach to support for veterans?

Margaret McCulloch (Labour, Central Scotland)

I certainly do. However, we must continue to look at how we might provide further help to veterans. After all, continuing care and a consistent level of service are important for not only servicemen and women but their families.

We will all agree that this debate has provided an opportunity to discuss in a useful and poignant way the needs of an extraordinary group of people. Before we vote on the motion, I simply want to impress upon the Government the practical needs of veterans and their families.

James Dornan (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Cathcart)

We are eternally grateful to every Scot who, in serving in our armed forces either in war or in peace, has assumed huge risks on our behalf. On remembrance Sunday, Scotland will join as one to give thanks for a debt that we can never fully repay.

I welcome the fact that we have a Scottish Government minister with responsibility for veterans affairs. After all, although defence matters are reserved, it is only right for our Government to reflect the fact that many aspects of our lives fall within the Scottish Parliament’s remit. As members have pointed out, the Scottish Government has made huge efforts to improve the lives of veterans across Scotland. I do not intend to go over those efforts again, but I do want to mention the Glasgow Housing Association, which Elaine Murray referred to in her speech. As a member of the GHA board, I am delighted by what it is doing to make veterans’ lives easier.

I will focus on communities’ great work in supporting our veterans and, in particular, concentrate on my Glasgow Cathcart constituency. Cathcart is blessed with many beautiful churches that are full of people determined to make a difference for those in the community who are most in need and, at this time of year, their minds turn to our veterans.

Nowhere is such effort highlighted more than in Cathcart old parish church, which is not only a place of worship led by a minister who teaches the faith but a church in the traditional manner that takes on those in our society who are less well off, who require a bit more help and support and who need someone to champion their cause and provide for them when no one else can or will. The church is extremely fortunate to be led by the formidable Rev Neil Galbraith, moderator of Glasgow presbytery of the Church of Scotland. He is a man who embodies the spirit of Christianity and humanity and who cannot rest as long as someone, somewhere, needs his help.

The Rev Neil Galbraith’s charity—Glasgow the Caring City—will be known to many members across the chamber, particularly Linda Fabiani. It has been working to make the world a better place for some time. Among the many overseas disasters that it has been involved in was Kosovo between 1999 and 2004, when it delivered millions of pounds’ worth of aid. It was one of the first aid agencies to land in Pakistan during the floods, and it was also in Haiti after a dreadful earthquake shattered the island. That is just a part of its overseas work, but we are here to talk about what it does for veterans.

Over the years, Glasgow the Caring City has supported children and the military in both Afghanistan and Iraq, worked with the navy to provide food for children in Sierra Leone, and been involved in the Help for Heroes charity. In 2002, we saw the creation of the peace garden and community cairn in the church grounds. They have become a well-loved feature of the Cathcart area and are generally recognised as Cathcart’s official place to remember our fallen.

Back in 2006, the Caring City produced a CD single called “The Light That Brings Us Home”. I am not convinced that the Rev Neil Galbraith sang on it, but it raised money for the families of marines who died in action but who were not eligible for pensions as the marines and their partners had not been officially married. That had a huge impact on a huge number of people, both partners and children.

In 2009, I was fortunate enough to attend the church when, in an extremely emotive service, it put in a beautiful stained glass window as an official memorial for the Royal Marines. In 2011, the Rev Neil Galbraith took on the marine chaplaincy, and the colours of the marines were laid in the kirk.

The church offers an on-going support service to the families of the fallen, helping them with travel needs and legal support and providing toys for children at Christmas time. I am sure that members will agree that those practical means can make a huge difference to our veterans and their families. The charity and the reverend should be warmly applauded for their work.

In a recent discussion, the Rev Neil Galbraith and I talked about a number of things. One was the fact that remembrance Sunday seems to be making a comeback in terms of popularity. It was touched on earlier that there seemed to be a spell in which people veered away from commemorating remembrance Sunday, but the situation has changed over recent years. I wonder whether that has to do with the fact that we unfortunately have seen on television the dead and wounded coming back from places such as Iraq and Afghanistan. There seems to have been a recognition of the debt that we owe to those who go abroad and fight. As was mentioned earlier, they are perhaps doing that for causes that we do not fully support, but we recognise why they do it—they do it for us.

In the discussion, the Rev Neil Galbraith also mentioned the fact that we should try to put in place a leaving support service—Richard Simpson touched on that, too. If we know that the time is coming for people to leave the services and we know that they might have difficulties, it may be possible to identify those who need the most support before they leave. I accept that we cannot really deal with that issue in the Scottish Parliament, but we may be able to put forward some ideas.

The practical thing that the Rev Neil Galbraith is looking to do is create a drop-in centre for ex-armed forces personnel—somewhere they can come for a cup of tea, a break or a friendly face to chat to. I am confident that my fellow local politicians will join me in assisting him to make the hope a reality.

Again in a practical sense, Glasgow the Caring City has been working with City Building in Glasgow to place a small number of wounded soldiers as mature apprentices. That is a fantastic idea that both the charity and City Building should be highly commended for. I hope that many other companies will follow that outstanding example. I know that the Government has identified the issue as one to address, and I look forward to hearing how that develops.

The Deputy First Minister, Linda Fabiani and I recently attended an extremely moving service at Cathcart old parish church to commemorate those lost due to the events of 9/11. It was clear from those attending just how close the relationship is between the community and the armed forces personnel, both serving and retired. I am sure that that will be reinforced when I lay my wreath there on Armistice day.

The Scottish Government has shown its commitment to veterans across Scotland. To highlight the support for the work of communities such as Cathcart for veterans, I invite the minister to visit the Cathcart old parish church and see for himself just how close the relationship is. I look forward to a positive response and then a visit.

Nanette Milne (Conservative, North East Scotland)

As a member of the cross-party group on veterans, I am pleased to take part in the debate. As other members have mentioned, it is well timed, just eight days before remembrance day—a day on which as a nation we show our respect and support for all those who are or have been active in the defence of our nation, sometimes suffering serious injuries or death in pursuit of their duty on our behalf. Many speakers, notably Tavish Scott, have graphically described how great that suffering can be.

My native north-east Scotland has a long and proud military history. Prior to entering Parliament, I was privileged to volunteer at the Gordon Highlanders museum in Aberdeen, where I met many visitors who were close to veterans of that respected regiment and keen to be reminded of its history, especially in the two world wars of the 20th century.

The Gordon Highlanders, freemen of the city of Aberdeen, are one of the great names in Scottish history and one of the most celebrated regiments of the British Army. They are renowned as a courageous fighting force with an exceptional reputation for good conduct, professionalism and steadfastness, and their legacy lives on through the current serving soldiers of the Highlanders, 4th battalion the Royal Regiment of Scotland.

Today, our forces and their families are still making sacrifices for us. In recent years, with conflicts in Northern Ireland, Iraq and Afghanistan, the public have wanted to show their personal support for the UK’s armed forces wherever they have served or are serving. The fact that we have so many outstanding charities working to help and support our forces is testimony to the good will and support that the Scottish public have shown towards them. Like others, I pay tribute to all the service charities and veterans organisations that do so much great work to help those who have served in our armed forces, several of which have been mentioned this morning.

Specifically, I highlight the work of the North-East Scotland Disabled Veterans Association, which is a self-help group that was set up four years ago by veterans of the armed forces in the north-east who were experiencing disability either through their service or otherwise. The association now has more than 40 members, who have served in every conflict around the world from Korea to the Falklands, including three who served in the second world war.

Financed completely by their own fundraising efforts, the members provide social activities, comradeship and friendship, chaplaincy, counselling, alternative therapies, computer studies and the opportunity to take part in memorials locally and nationally. They also provide guards of honour at the funerals of the association’s members. They have taken members who were prisoners of war during the second world war back to their place of battle and capture for the first time, enabling those veterans to find some closure after all these years. From day to day, the association provides an understanding support mechanism, drawing disabled veterans out from years of exclusion and loneliness to be supported by those who share their experiences.

Each year, the nation comes together to pay its respects to all those who have made the ultimate sacrifice and to the families who they have left behind. Each year, it is right that we express our unequivocal support for our armed forces, wherever they may be deployed. I was interested to hear Liz Smith’s examples of school projects, which indicate that young people, too, are aware of the debt that we owe our armed forces.

Like others, I put on record my admiration for all those who work at the Lady Haig Poppy Factory in Edinburgh. The Scottish poppy appeal marks its 90th anniversary this year. The massive £2.3 million-plus that the appeal raises each year, combined with other year-round fundraising, allows the charity to provide financial assistance to thousands of ex-servicemen and ex-servicewomen as well as to fund specialist services such as long-term care, housing and employment opportunities. However, as Alex Fergusson and other members have said, the work of the many charities that currently help veterans highlights the urgent need for better services for them.

I welcome the Scottish Government’s endorsement of the UK Government’s commitment to the military covenant. I welcome, too, its intention to strengthen the provision of, and access to, health, transport and housing services—all of which are extremely important to the wellbeing and reintegration into the community of many veterans—as well as many other support mechanisms for ex-service personnel that are provided via the private, public and voluntary sectors. All must work together to provide the best help and support to our armed services personnel, to veterans and, importantly, to their respective families, including the bereaved.

I welcome the many initiatives that the minister has highlighted this morning and which the Scottish Government has introduced, especially those that relate to health. Many positive steps have been taken, for example, to extend the priority treatment scheme to all armed forces personnel and veterans, including reservists, and to provide effective services for veterans and their families who experience mental ill health—a common problem for people who have undergone the stresses of modern military involvement. However, as the minister and others have indicated, that is work in progress and more has yet to be done.

I support the motion and Richard Simpson’s amendment whole-heartedly. I welcome the positive steps that the UK coalition Government and the Scottish Government have taken to rebuild the military covenant. At the same time, I hope that additional opportunities can be provided for individuals and businesses to show their support for all those who have been actively involved in defending our nation.

Our treatment of the men and women of our armed forces and their families speaks volumes about us as a nation. I hope that, by working together, both of Scotland’s Governments can help to provide first-class services and the respect and dignity that those people deserve, whether they are still in active service or adapting to life back in civilian society. We must remember their commitment to us and repay them by our commitment to them.

Mark Griffin (Labour, Central Scotland)

I welcome the opportunity to speak on a subject that is close to my heart and to close for Labour in the debate on veterans. It has been an excellent debate, and I hope that veterans and members of the armed forces alike take heart from the unanimous support that members have offered.

During my time at university, I was a member of the UK Territorial Army, first with the Royal Regiment of Scotland and then with the Royal Engineers. I have no doubt that, if it had not been for the sequence of events that resulted in my being elected as a councillor in North Lanarkshire in early 2008, I would now be serving as a regular Army soldier, deployed in some part of the world where the UK Army has a presence.

If I had been a serving soldier, I would have welcomed the commitment to the military covenant. I am glad that the UK Government and Scottish Government are both committed to that. Those who serve in our armed forces are asked to make massive personal sacrifices in their human rights and, ultimately, to be prepared to give up their right to life in the service of the nation. It is only right that, in return, Governments and we as a nation value, respect and support our armed forces. That culminates in the annual commemoration of armistice day, when we stop to remember those who gave their lives in action so that we could enjoy the freedom that we experience today.

I enjoyed the camaraderie that I experienced with my fellow recruits and then private soldiers as we made our way through the trials of basic training and then combat infantry courses. It was physically draining to spend days and days training, eating and sleeping—when there was a chance—on the hills and heather moors around Fort George outside Inverness. However, I am sure that that was nothing compared to the training that the minister underwent as a Royal Marine.

No one in that group of soldiers got through training on their own: at some point, every one of us relied on someone else to pick them up and push them on. None of us minded the extra effort of dragging along someone else when we were already exhausted, because we knew that they would do exactly the same for us the following day. Everyone in that unit would have run through a brick wall for the others—or, at the very least, helped someone else to get over one on the assault course.

I hope that my description has not put anyone off the kind of experience that people get in the Territorial Army. I urge members to get in touch with SaBRE—supporting Britain’s reservists and employers—an organisation that gives advice and information on the extra skills that a reservist can bring to an organisation. It also provides weekend training courses for employers who would like first-hand experience of the sort of training that a reservist gets. That can help to overcome the issues that Alex Fergusson mentioned by raising workplace awareness of a reservist’s role.

I have never experienced in any other situation the camaraderie that I experienced during my time in the TA. I experienced it in training, but I cannot even begin to imagine the level of intensity and commitment to fellow soldiers that those on the front line experience. I could only listen and try to comprehend when I heard from a soldier who had served in Afghanistan what it was like to come under fire and lose a fellow soldier who was as close to him as a member of his own family.

I can only imagine how isolated someone must feel if they are discharged from the armed forces into society—alone and, perhaps, with no family—after having such a close bond with the comrades with whom they fought and whom they perhaps lost in combat. It is vital that the advice and support services are in place to enable former service personnel to adjust to living in mainstream society and that Governments continue to plan, co-ordinate and deliver private, public and voluntary sector support, advice and employment services for ex-service personnel and their families and children, as stated in the amendment.

I welcome the news that North Lanarkshire Council is amending its housing policy to recognise the priority needs of homeless ex-service personnel who have just been discharged from duty and of their families, and I welcome the commitment by Dumfries and Galloway Council that Elaine Murray mentioned.

We must continue to support organisations that do tremendous work for former service personnel across Scotland, including the Royal British Legion, which I often visit in Cumbernauld. The legion provides practical care, advice and support to armed forces personnel, ex-servicemen and women of all ages and their families. It also runs the annual poppy appeal. Recent appeals have emphasised the increasing need to help the men and women who serve today, as well as ex-servicepeople and their dependants. The legion assists any serviceman or woman in pursuing their entitlement to a war disablement pension. Every year, up to 200 ex-service personnel in Scotland are represented at war pensions appeal tribunals.

Across the road from the Parliament, Scottish Veterans Residences provides residential accommodation for more than 300 ex-service personnel and their partners. It has helped more than 60,000 veterans throughout Scotland since it was established in 1911.

The Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen and Families Association—its Lanark branch covers my region of Central Scotland—offers financial, practical and much-needed emotional support to current and previous armed forces members and their families. It provides services such as forces line, which is a telephone service that is entirely independent of the military chain of command and which provides supportive listening and advice, and the specialist absent without leave—AWOL—advice line. The association runs the forces additional needs disability support group and organises children’s holidays that are run by volunteers and which concentrate on offering experiences and activities to which children with additional support needs would not normally have access.

Jim Eadie, Neil Bibby and Jamie Hepburn mentioned Erskine, which is the country’s leading provider of care for veterans. It provides a wide range of care from respite and short breaks to residential and nursing care, dementia care, palliative care, physiotherapy, speech and language therapy and rehabilitation care. They are all vital services for ex-servicemen and women and their families.

As I said, the subject is close to my heart. I could speak in glowing terms all day long about the organisations and the tremendous services that they provide. I mentioned as many organisations as I could squeeze in because the services that they provide are vital to creating a sense of support and community for veterans.

It is of the utmost importance that the Government, the Parliament and the public continue to support those organisations through the Scottish veterans fund, which the minister outlined, through public donations, which we have all made this week to the poppy appeal, and through volunteering, which Liz Smith mentioned. The support that we continue to give such organisations is vital to ensuring that they can do their tremendous work for veterans and armed forces personnel across Scotland.

The level of support makes our serving and former servicemen and women feel valued, respected and supported, as outlined in the military covenant. It also goes towards creating the community support network for those who have left the armed forces and who might have difficulty in settling back into what could seem like a lonely and isolated life in comparison with their time in military service, when they were surrounded by comrades who supported them. I support the motion and the amendment in Richard Simpson’s name.

Keith Brown (Scottish National Party, Clackmannanshire and Dunblane)

As Mark Griffin said, the debate has been excellent and some very good speeches have been made. It has given us a chance to record our support for veterans and the organisations that support them. Members’ speeches have given colour, texture and voice to that support through the anecdotes and personal experiences that have been related. That has been valuable.

I will concentrate on points that were raised in the debate rather than go over the ground that I previously covered. It is worth returning to Richard Simpson’s point about the Government’s response in relation to supported employment and Remploy. He will not find the Scottish Government’s official response on our website, but I assure him that the Deputy First Minister met Maria Miller, who is the UK Minister for Disabled People, to discuss the matter in September. She followed that with a letter to Maria Miller in October, although that covered other issues for vulnerable individuals, too. I assure Richard Simpson that we have responded.

Helen Eadie (Labour, Cowdenbeath)

I thank the minister for that information. Will he consider the statement on the issue by a minister in the Welsh Assembly Government on 1 November, with a view to getting the Scottish Government to endorse the views of the National Assembly for Wales and unite in opposition to the proposal to close all 54 supported employment factories in the United Kingdom?

Keith Brown (Scottish National Party, Clackmannanshire and Dunblane)

I am happy to look at that statement. We have opposed the cuts to Remploy and the closures of its factories that various Governments have proposed, so I am sure that doing as the member asks will not be a problem. However, if she will forgive me, I will wait until I see the statement before we sign up to it.

I am glad that Mark Griffin talked about SaBRE, which no other member mentioned. It is a very worthwhile organisation that does exemplary work to support employers and those who want to serve in the Territorial Army or other reserve forces in relation to the time off that they need.

We have had some interesting speeches in which I have received invitations to travel round the country. I am happy to accept the invitation from James Dornan to go to Cathcart old parish church. I was particularly interested in his point about the work that is being done on behalf of former and serving Royal Marines. I am also happy to accept the invitation from Dennis Robertson to visit the charity HorseBack UK, which I think also has a strong Royal Marines connection through its founder. As Dennis Robertson requested, I will write to the DWP on the issues that he raised.

Some extremely important points have been made. Derek Mackay and Linda Fabiani talked about the fact that other people often recognise the efforts of those who are close to us before we do. That is an important point and one that I will certainly take on board. We sometimes see that in campaigns for new memorials, such as the one in Plean in my former constituency.

Elaine Murray talked about the pardons campaign, in which I was heavily involved as a councillor in the mid-1990s. I was pleased that it achieved some success, although it did not achieve everything that we asked for, not least in relation to commemorating on war memorials those who were shot. However, it is a good step to have the pardons granted.

Members—particularly new members—have rightly asked about what more we can do. Part of the purpose of the debate was to consider that issue. Much work has been done by my predecessors, particularly Stewart Maxwell, who was the first minister to have a remit for veterans. In 2007, none of the budgets that we have today existed. There was always support on the issue in the Parliament prior to 2007, but it is difficult to argue within Government for new budgets and activities. The current budgets are a testament to the work of Stewart Maxwell and Alex Neil.

It is inevitable that we will go through a developmental process in providing and assisting with services. Part of the purpose of the debate was to get members’ suggestions and to find out what more can be done. It is always difficult for charities to have to ration their support because they have to live within their resources, and the Government is no different.

Richard Simpson (Labour, Mid Scotland and Fife)

Will the minister consider whether the anti-stigma campaign that the Government funds could specifically deal with stigma in relation to veterans, to try to improve the situation that several members have mentioned?

Keith Brown (Scottish National Party, Clackmannanshire and Dunblane)

I am happy to take that on board—we will consider that.

More active support is now being given at devolved level, although it can be difficult—it is sometimes a bit like trying to catch fish and having to put the net everywhere. One reason that I perceive for that is that we are not in control of when veterans appear or the nature of the support that they receive prior to that.

Several members commented on resettlement in the armed forces, which has been pretty poor for a long time, although it is improving. A big difference can be made by properly preparing people for the move from an institution to civilian life and providing the additional support that they need as a result of experiences that they have undergone in the military. For someone in that situation, many decisions suddenly have to be made, such as those on healthcare and accessing housing services. The process of accessing services can be intimidating for somebody who has had such things taken care of for a long time. I accept that there is more for us to do, and I take on board the points that members have made.

Tavish Scott spoke interestingly about his experience and that of his family, and Liz Smith’s point was spot on. My children go to Alva academy in Clackmannanshire, and as part of a project pupils are going to the battlefields of Europe. I watched the video of my children’s visit. Some people have said—and perhaps sometimes with justification—that young people can feel removed from something that happened so long ago. However, when young people see the ages on the gravestone, it moves them and drives home the issue. As well as the 17-year-olds, we know that 16-year-olds served in the great war. Some were even younger. Schools take an open approach. They not only teach the history but try to make it meaningful. As a result, there seems to have been a cultural change.

For many years in the United States, we have been able to see a difference in their way of treating their veterans. We can go down Veterans Expressway in Florida, for example. If veterans want, they can go to all the various theme parks at reduced rates. They can access all sorts of facilities, public or otherwise, if they have a veterans card.

Americans always seem to have been able to make the mental distinction that Jamie Hepburn mentioned. To put it mildly, conflicts such as the one in Vietnam have not enjoyed complete public support, but Americans seem to be able to separate the ideas. Politicians send servicepeople to wars, and those servicepeople have no choice but to go—and they deserve support for what they experience.

A number of people have mentioned Erskine. Derek Mackay, the First Minister and I had a very interesting visit there—especially our conversation with a former Royal Marine in his wheelchair. I do not want to obsess about the Royal Marines, but the new chief executive of Erskine is an ex-Royal Marine himself, and I extend to him a word of warning and sympathy. As I have learned since being appointed as a transport minister, people can expect ex-marines to have superhuman powers to deal with all the problems that can arise. I wish him the best of luck.

Erskine is a superb organisation. Recently, Christina McKelvie and I were able to go to the Erskine ball. Through the generosity of the people who turned up, more than £100,000 was raised for Erskine’s work. If anyone talks to people from Erskine for any length of time, they will realise how much the organisation has to raise every day from charitable contributions to continue its work. Its work is valued and it deserves support from all members. It has attracted such support: in the previous session, Trish Godman, Hugh Henry and others were involved in receptions in the Parliament.

The changing footprint of the armed forces in Scotland over the next few years will have repercussions for the way in which we organise services. More service personnel will return to this country from overseas, bases in Germany will close, and there will be the effects of the strategic defence and security review.

Having more serving personnel here in Scotland means that more people will become veterans in due course. In my experience, many serving personnel who come here from elsewhere in the UK stay and make their lives here. Why not? We offer such a wonderful place to live. However, greater demand will be placed on our infrastructure, services and communities—but I welcome that challenge. We can and should continue to improve our planning and delivery of support and advice to veterans. Most will access goods and services in the same way as everyone else, but a few will need a little extra helping hand. We owe them that.

To add to the roll call of people who have done sterling work, I would add Dundee City Council—and this relates to points made by Elaine Murray. In its allocation process for housing, the entire length of time that somebody has served in the military counts towards points. Other councils are also considering such a system. Perhaps that is testament to the changing culture around those who have served in our armed forces.

It is important that we mention the idea of remembrance. As I have said in a previous debate, for people in the armed forces who may face the ultimate peril, when that fear becomes acute the idea that what they have done will not be forgotten is very important to them. Nor should it be forgotten that they defend the freedoms that we sometimes take for granted—a point that a number of members have made.

In recognising that, I asked myself the question put by George Canning:

“When our perils are past, shall our gratitude sleep?”

The answer to that question of course has to be no. If that idea informs the way that we support veterans and if all members think in that way, I am sure that we will do right by veterans in future.

City of Edinburgh Council (Privatisation of Services)

Malcolm Chisholm (Labour, Edinburgh Northern and Leith)

1. To ask the Scottish Government what its position is on the proposed privatisation of services by the City of Edinburgh Council. (S4O-00298)

Aileen Campbell (Scottish National Party, Clydesdale)

I am aware of the proposals that the council is considering as part of its alternative business model programme. It is for the council, as a body of elected representatives, to determine how it delivers services for the people of Edinburgh, within the framework of its duty to secure best value, with the principles behind best value in statutory guidance, including responsiveness to the needs of communities, citizens, customers, and employees.

I understand that the council has deferred a decision about environmental services until next month to allow members to get more information and to enable them to scrutinise the proposals fully, as is their responsibility.

Malcolm Chisholm (Labour, Edinburgh Northern and Leith)

I hope that the minister is opposed to the council’s privatisation proposals. On a specific point, is she aware of the protocol between the Scottish Government and the Scottish Trades Union Congress that requires that transferred employees and new appointees to a public-private partnership workforce have access to the same or broadly comparable pension arrangements as are currently available to council employees and that, where possible, that should be achieved through the use of admitted body status? Will she confirm that the protocol remains in force and that it is directly applicable to the Edinburgh alternative business model programme? Will she write to the City of Edinburgh Council to that effect?

Aileen Campbell (Scottish National Party, Clydesdale)

I thank Malcolm Chisholm for his question. I reiterate that it is a matter for the City of Edinburgh Council.

On the pension scheme, I understand that the council is fully aware of its duty to comply with the guidance that is issued under section 52 of the Local Government in Scotland Act 2003 in relation to employment issues and contracting. Again, that is for Edinburgh councillors to consider. During the month for which they have opted to defer the decision, I expect them to ensure that they cover all bases in respect of the issues that Malcolm Chisholm has raised.

Marco Biagi (Scottish National Party, Edinburgh Central)

Are there, for councils such as the City of Edinburgh Council that might be considering large-scale private involvement in delivery of services, lessons to learn from the record of Labour’s wholesale embracing of the private finance initiative in local authorities and other services throughout the public sector?

Aileen Campbell (Scottish National Party, Clydesdale)

Marco Biagi’s point is well made. We all know that public sector resource budgets are under pressure as a result of their being slashed because of choices that have been made by the Tories—and previously by Labour—at Westminster. We have made it clear that we will not continue the overly expensive PFI because it is apparent that it is not delivering best value for the taxpayer: no new PFI projects have been initiated since 2007. The PFI legacy is a drain on public finances and shows us that instead of accepting credit-card levels of repayment under PFI, we need to get the best value from our capital to enable us to do far more for our economy and our society.

Orthodontic Dentistry (Access for Children)

Mark Griffin (Labour, Central Scotland)

2. To ask the Scottish Executive how it ensures access to orthodontic dentistry for all children who would benefit from it. (S4O-00299)

Michael Matheson (Scottish National Party, Falkirk West)

All children who are assessed as having a definite need for orthodontic treatment, and who would benefit from orthodontic treatment, will be able to access such treatment.

Mark Griffin (Labour, Central Scotland)

Strict new guidelines that are being imposed on dentists by the Scottish Government will see parents pay thousands of pounds for orthodontic treatment if a dentist cannot prove that their child’s health will improve as a result of it. Does the minister understand concerns that the strictness of the new guidelines will create a tiered system in Scotland, with poorer families who do not meet the criteria and who cannot meet the costs of treatment being forced to go without? Will he take action to protect those young people?

Michael Matheson (Scottish National Party, Falkirk West)

Mark Griffin should be aware that, under the new criteria that were introduced under the index of orthodontic treatment need, where there is a clinical need, children will still be able to access orthodontic treatment. We, as a Government, have put considerable investment into oral healthcare in recent years and we are now starting to reap the rewards of that as Scotland’s overall oral health record is improving significantly.

I point out that the provision has been introduced because it was one of the key recommendations in the dental action plan for Scotland, which was published in 2005 by the Labour and Liberal Democrat Administration. We are now implementing various parts of the plan. It might also be helpful if I point out to Mark Griffin that, in Scotland, we are introducing it in the same way as it has been introduced in other parts of the United Kingdom. For example, the same index was introduced in England in 2006 by the Labour Government and it was introduced in Wales in April 2006, also by a Labour Government. It has also been introduced in Northern Ireland.

The system makes the process around orthodontic treatment fairer, clearer and quicker. That is why children in Scotland who have a clinical need for orthodontic treatment will continue to receive it.

Murdo Fraser (Conservative, Mid Scotland and Fife)

The minister referred to clinical need. Does he accept that there are many children and young people who might not have a clinical need for orthodontic treatment but who do not want to grow up with disfiguring crooked teeth? Does he accept that the legacy of what he is proposing might well be that we have children with crooked teeth from less well-off backgrounds while the parents of those from better-off backgrounds can afford to pay for the much-needed treatment?

Michael Matheson (Scottish National Party, Falkirk West)

I should point out to the member that, under the index, children who require orthodontic treatment will receive it. That can involve a range of issues, including realignment of crooked teeth. That will still be available, where a clinical assessment has been undertaken.

It is worth pointing out that, at the moment, the vast majority of orthodontic treatment that is provided under the general dental service provision is given to children from more affluent backgrounds, rather than those from lower-income backgrounds. Ensuring that we target resources at those who have the greatest need for dental treatment is a key part of the dental action plan that was published in 2005 and which we are committed to taking forward.

Flood Defences (Perth and Kinross Council)

Elizabeth Smith (Conservative, Mid Scotland and Fife)

3. To ask the Scottish Executive what assessment it has made of flood defences in the Perth and Kinross Council area. (S4O-00300)

Stewart Stevenson (Scottish National Party, Banffshire and Buchan Coast)

In 2007, all the existing flood defences in Scotland were assessed as part of the establishment of the Scottish Government’s flood defence asset database. There were only a few flood defences where minor problems were identified, one of which was at Bridge of Earn. Perth and Kinross Council was given the report and I understand that appropriate action to resolve the maintenance issues that were identified has been taken.

Elizabeth Smith (Conservative, Mid Scotland and Fife)

If the forecasters are correct, it seems to be likely that we are in for another difficult winter, which continues to cause concern to communities that are most vulnerable to floods, some of which the minister has just acknowledged. What discussions has the Scottish Government had with local authorities to ensure that the maximum possible assistance is being given to those communities when it comes to preventing flood damage this coming winter?

Stewart Stevenson (Scottish National Party, Banffshire and Buchan Coast)

Difficult winters are, of course, something with which I am familiar.

We have a regular programme of engagement with local authorities. Later this month, I shall meet the Association of British Insurers on issues relating to flooding. We have a series of programmes to ensure that we are working in tandem with local authorities in their discharging of their responsibilities.

Nigel Don (Scottish National Party, Angus North and Mearns)

How do the minister and his department interact with local authorities to ensure that flood schemes are prioritised and that money is made available the many years ahead that are necessary if local authorities are to be able to plan for their schemes?

Stewart Stevenson (Scottish National Party, Banffshire and Buchan Coast)

Nigel Don will be aware that, in 2008-09, the finance for addressing flooding was wrapped up in the money that was provided to local authorities. We are in discussions with the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities about the money that is available for flood schemes. I am sure that that will be of interest to the member.

NHS Fife (Meetings)

Claire Baker (Labour, Mid Scotland and Fife)

4. To ask the Scottish Executive when the Cabinet Secretary for Health, Wellbeing and Cities Strategy will next meet NHS Fife. (S4O-00301)

Michael Matheson (Scottish National Party, Falkirk West)

The cabinet secretary expects to meet the chair of NHS Fife on 21 November during her routine meeting with national health service board chairs. She will also be chairing the NHS Fife annual review on 28 November.

Claire Baker (Labour, Mid Scotland and Fife)

No doubt the minister is aware of NHS Fife’s proposal to cut nine hospice beds at Queen Margaret hospital in Dunfermline. In just over a month, more than 12,000 people have signed a petition to oppose the cut, yet NHS Fife has repeatedly delayed an announcement on the future of the hospice ward. Will the minister ensure that the Cabinet Secretary for Health, Wellbeing and Cities Strategy raises the issue of cuts to hospice beds and seeks clarity at NHS Fife’s annual review?

Michael Matheson (Scottish National Party, Falkirk West)

I am aware that NHS Fife is reviewing the provision of palliative beds in its area. However, I am not aware of any specific proposal that it has brought forward so far. I understand that it has in place a review group that is due to meet later this month to consider various options. If there are to be any changes, there is clear guidance that NHS boards have to conduct a public consultation exercise around the matter. Given that the annual review will take place on 28 November and given the member’s interest in the matter, I encourage her to go along to the public meeting within the annual review and to take the opportunity to raise the issue with NHS Fife on that occasion.

Scotland-Norway Ferry Service

Angus MacDonald (Scottish National Party, Falkirk East)

5. To ask the Scottish Government what progress has been made on encouraging port and ferry operators to introduce a direct passenger service between Scotland and Norway. (S4O-00302)

Keith Brown (Scottish National Party, Clackmannanshire and Dunblane)

I acknowledge the member’s long-standing interest in the issue, which began long before he was elected to the Parliament. I assure him that the Scottish Government wants an expansion of direct ferry connections from Scotland to mainland Europe and we are therefore keen to engage with any operator that proposes a new ferry service between Scotland and Norway. However, any such service would have to operate on a commercially viable basis, and that is a matter for any prospective ferry operator to consider.

Angus MacDonald (Scottish National Party, Falkirk East)

I am encouraged by the minister’s response. He will be aware that there has been no direct passenger ferry link between the UK and Norway since 2008, when DFDS withdrew the Newcastle to Stavanger and Bergen service, and that the Norwegian ferry company Fjord Line has expressed a keen interest in establishing a Scotland-Norway link. Will he do all that he can to support any ferry operator that seeks to establish a direct ferry link between Scotland and Norway? Such a link would not only allow Scandinavians to visit Scotland, but would open up another route for the distribution of Scottish exports.

Keith Brown (Scottish National Party, Clackmannanshire and Dunblane)

I assure the member that we are aware of the reported interest in establishing a Scotland-Norway passenger ferry service and we are keen to work with any ferry operator that wants to introduce a new route. However, we have not to date received an approach on that. We are interested in increasing direct ferry connections from Scotland to mainland Europe, but any decision would be a matter for the commercial ferry industry, based on commercial viability. Fuel costs and vessel configuration would be key factors to be considered.

The strict European Union state-aid rules limit any possible funding by the Scottish Government to freight mode-shift grants, which are subject to budget availability. Grants are dependent on the transfer of freight from road to water, which is unlikely to be significant on a Scotland-Norway route. However, VisitScotland would certainly be prepared to work with any ferry operator to ensure that a new service was marketed to potential customers who were looking to come to Scotland.

Lewis Macdonald (Labour, North East Scotland)

Does the minister recognise that more than 100,000 people already travel each way between Scotland and Norway each year, principally via Aberdeen airport, but also via the new route between Glasgow and Stavanger that began in September? Will he now accept that it was a mistake for his Government not to replace the route development fund in 2007? If so, will he take steps to put that right so that we can have even more direct connections between Scotland and our Scandinavian neighbours in the years to come?

Keith Brown (Scottish National Party, Clackmannanshire and Dunblane)

Lewis Macdonald’s question is disingenuous. He knows full well why that fund could not continue and what the issues are in terms of European regulation. I note what he says about the viability and increasing popularity of travel between Norway and Scotland, which is testament to the resilience of the Norwegian economy and shows what an independent country can do for its people.

Farming Tenancies (Compensation for Investment)

Elaine Murray (Labour, Dumfriesshire)

6. To ask the Scottish Executive whether tenant farmers relinquishing their tenancies have a right to compensation for investment made in their farms and, if so, whether the Agricultural Holdings (Amendment) Scotland Bill will alter this. (S4O-00303)

Richard Lochhead (Scottish National Party, Moray)

Tenant farmers who quit their holdings can already make statutory claims against their landlords, including for certain investments. Depending on the tenancy, that can include improvements that qualify under the terms of the lease or net assets that the landlord gains from, for example, future tree cropping. The Agricultural Holdings (Amendment) (Scotland) Bill, which the Government introduced on 31 October, will not amend the statutory provisions on waygoing and other compensation claims.

Elaine Murray (Labour, Dumfriesshire)

May I ask the cabinet secretary for some advice on behalf of a tenant farmer in my constituency who wishes to leave his tenancy because of ill health? He has a 1944 lease, I believe, and he has invested some £200,000 in his farm over that time. The factor for the landowner has basically said that they cannot afford—

Tricia Marwick (None, Mid Fife and Glenrothes)

Can we have a question, please, Ms Murray?

Elaine Murray (Labour, Dumfriesshire)

I am asking the cabinet secretary for his advice. Does somebody in that situation have any right to compensation, or can the landowner just say that they cannot afford it and tell them to go away?

Richard Lochhead (Scottish National Party, Moray)

I am sure that Elaine Murray will be aware that I am not familiar with the detail of 1944 leases. However, if she wishes to write to me in more detail about the 1944 lease I will do my utmost to investigate the circumstances. A tenant with proper records of what he or she has invested over the years should have little difficulty in justifying compensation.

Fireworks (Safety)

Margaret Burgess (Scottish National Party, Cunninghame South)

7. To ask the Scottish Government what steps it is taking to ensure firework safety around bonfire night. (S4O-00304)

Roseanna Cunningham (Scottish National Party, Perthshire South and Kinross-shire)

Fire and rescue services are working with local partners to highlight the dangers of fireworks and bonfires. They have a statutory duty to promote fire safety in their areas. Their work is supported by the Scottish Government, which also delivers a national fire safety campaign.

Margaret Burgess (Scottish National Party, Cunninghame South)

I thank the minister for her answer and trust that the measures she has outlined will see a reduction in numbers from the 38 incidents that happened in my constituency on the last bonfire night. Will the minister explain what the Scottish Government does to promote fire safety in Scotland with the aim of reducing the number of people who are killed or injured by fire?

Roseanna Cunningham (Scottish National Party, Perthshire South and Kinross-shire)

As I said, there is a national fire safety publicity campaign that is informed by the findings of the “Scotland Together” report, which was published in 2008. The campaign focuses on making the public aware of the real risk of fire and the promotion of home fire safety visits by means of the media, fire safety road shows, fire safety leaflets and the www.dontgivefireahome.com website. Statistics show a significant decrease in the number of fire deaths and injuries in Scotland and very good work is being done on the issues that are related to bonfires, which are slightly different to those that are related to fireworks but are wrapped into the same period. We are seeing considerable success, but as the member highlights, one incident is an incident too many.

Housing Benefit Cap (Representations)

Fiona McLeod (Scottish National Party, Strathkelvin and Bearsden)

8. To ask the Scottish Government what representations it has made to the UK Government on the possible effect in Scotland of the proposed cap on housing benefit for families that require more than four bedrooms. (S4O-00305)

Keith Brown (Scottish National Party, Clackmannanshire and Dunblane)

The Scottish Government wrote to the UK Government in December 2010 expressing deep concern about the cumulative impact on Scotland of the cuts in housing benefit, providing a comprehensive impact assessment.

Although only 100 or so households in Scotland will be affected by the four-bedroom cap, overall the first tranche of reforms could lead to 55,000 people in Scotland losing on average £40 a month. Subsequent cuts in housing benefit for the social housing sector could adversely affect another 95,000 people. The Scottish Government has repeatedly expressed its concern to the UK Government about these matters, and will continue to do so.

Fiona McLeod (Scottish National Party, Strathkelvin and Bearsden)

I thank the minister for that answer and for the work that he has been doing on this matter. Will he raise the conflict between the cap on bedroom numbers and the requirements of section 137 of the Housing (Scotland) Act 1987 on overcrowding?

Keith Brown (Scottish National Party, Clackmannanshire and Dunblane)

As Fiona McLeod suggests, landlords will still be expected to comply with overcrowding legislation, regardless of the levels of housing benefit that are paid. The UK Government reforms, however, will make it more difficult for families to manage on reduced benefits in appropriately sized accommodation. We estimate that the four-bedroom restriction and cap will have a severe impact on about 100 or so households in Scotland with average losses in excess of £200 a month. Councils will find it very difficult to provide alternative accommodation of the right size, so we will continue to work jointly with councils and other stakeholders through our advisory group to identify households and groups that are at risk.

Gavin Brown (Conservative, Lothian)

Thank you, Presiding Officer, and I will make sure I read out question 9.

Business Gateway Contracts

Gavin Brown (Conservative, Lothian)

9. To ask the Scottish Executive what progress there has been regarding the new business gateway contracts in the last month. (S4O-00306)

Fergus Ewing (Scottish National Party, Inverness and Nairn)

Local authorities are responsible for the retendering of the new business gateway contracts. I know the business gateway Scotland board is giving careful consideration to the Economy, Energy and Tourism Committee’s recent report on renewal of the business gateway contracts, which it published on 10 October. This is helping to inform progress on developing the new contracts. The board will submit a detailed response to the committee shortly and is continuing to engage with key interests. It is organising an event on 18 November to get views on the service specification.

Gavin Brown (Conservative, Lothian)

The major criticism of the current contracts was that they lack flexibility. Will the new ones have the flexibility to help all businesses across Scotland?

Fergus Ewing (Scottish National Party, Inverness and Nairn)

Yes, they will.

Engagements

Iain Gray (Labour, East Lothian)

1. To ask the Deputy First Minister what engagements she has planned for the rest of the day. (S4F-00236)

Nicola Sturgeon (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Southside)

I begin by paying tribute to Campbell Christie, a true giant of Scottish public life. Campbell’s contribution to Scotland over many years speaks for itself. He was a key campaigner for this Parliament, leader of the Scottish Trades Union Congress, chairman of his beloved Falkirk Football Club, a valued member of Forth Valley NHS Board and latterly, of course, the chair of the Christie commission on public sector reform. His legacy is immense and it will undoubtedly stand the test of time. We will all miss him, and I am sure that the entire chamber will want to send its deepest condolences to his wife Betty and, indeed, to all his family at this very sad time. [Applause.]

Later today, I will have meetings to take forward the Government’s programme for Scotland.

Iain Gray (Labour, East Lothian)

Those were welcome words. I look forward, with many others, to celebrating Campbell’s life at Falkirk football stadium tomorrow.

This week, analysts from Citigroup told global clients not to invest in Scotland because of the Government’s separatist agenda. Is it not now clear that the uncertainty created by a separation referendum will damage this country’s economy?

Nicola Sturgeon (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Southside)

I looked very closely at Iain Gray as he asked that question, just to see whether he was at all shamefaced. On the very morning that we learn that there is £400 billion-worth of revenue still to be extracted from the North Sea, only Iain Gray could stand up and question Scotland’s ability to be independent.

We disagree with the Citigroup report and think that it is wrong. It is based on two fundamental flaws. First, it ignores the reality, which is that investment is happening now, in the context of a live independence debate: £750 million has been invested in the past 12 months, and Mitsubishi, Doosan and Gamesa have £46 billion-worth of projects in the pipeline. That is the reality.

Secondly, the report makes the erroneous assumption that somehow, post-independence, the rest of the United Kingdom will no longer buy Scottish energy. That is patent nonsense. I know that Iain Gray is not usually one to miss the opportunity to clutch at any passing straw, but today he has excelled himself.

Iain Gray (Labour, East Lothian)

I looked very closely at the news about the potential of Aberdeen. I believe that Aberdeen has that potential, but the report says that it will be realised only if we have a transparent and stable fiscal regime—the very thing that Citigroup says that the Scottish Government is jeopardising.

If the Deputy First Minister will not listen to investors on energy, what about the engineers? In 25 minutes, the Institution of Mechanical Engineers will brief its “Scottish Energy 2020” report in this very building. It will say that the Scottish National Party’s 100 per cent renewables plan

“cannot be justified from an engineering perspective”,

that

“there are currently no credible strategies from a technical point of view, published by Government”,

and that

“without ... far reaching changes in Government policy, the target will not be met.”

I think that Scottish engineers are the best in the world. Does the Deputy First Minister think that she knows better than they do?

Nicola Sturgeon (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Southside)

To go back to the news from Aberdeen, Iain Gray talks about fiscal arrangements. Has it escaped his notice that the fiscal arrangements that have the capacity to damage our North Sea potential are those from the UK Government? He has ignored that point.

Iain Gray asks who knows best. Does he think that he knows better than Roy MacGregor, the chairman of the Global Energy Group? This is what Roy MacGregor has to say:

“the investment is happening—in full knowledge of the Scottish Government’s planned referendum—and the renewables are being deployed in part thanks to the First Minister who has clearly demonstrated the vision and ambition that investors want to see. Scotland’s ability to produce power is a massive asset and one that is prospering”.

Just for once, Iain Gray could give up the opportunity to come to the chamber and talk Scotland down.

Iain Gray (Labour, East Lothian)

I saw Roy MacGregor’s letter in The Press and Journal. I hope that Roy saw it before it got there. That is a welcome investment by a Scottish company. However, the Deputy First Minister is still answering question 1. Question 2 was about what Scottish engineers are saying about the SNP’s energy policy. They are saying that

“energy policy has to be based on an understanding of energy supply technologies, not political expediency.”

They are trying to be polite, but they are talking about Alex Salmond. Will the Deputy First Minister listen, or will she send poor old Kevin Pringle off to forge a new engineering report in the professors’ names?

Nicola Sturgeon (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Southside)

Iain Gray is so predictable at First Minister’s question time that I answered question 2 in answer 1. I pointed to the massive renewables investment currently under way in Scotland—£750 million of new renewable electricity projects began generating in Scotland in the past 12 months. There is a pipeline of 17GW of renewable electricity projects—a total estimated capital investment of £46 billion ready to create thousands of new jobs for Scotland. That is the reality.

The stark contrast between Iain Gray and the First Minister will be lost on no one today: the First Minister overseas, fighting Scotland’s corner, winning investment for Scotland; Iain Gray, at home, talking Scotland down as usual.

Iain Gray (Labour, East Lothian)

There are none so deaf as those who will not hear. [Interruption.]

Tricia Marwick (None, Mid Fife and Glenrothes)

Order.

Iain Gray (Labour, East Lothian)

The report says that there is no credible plan, there is no credible pipeline and there is no route map to achieving the SNP’s renewable energy targets.

The SNP says that renewables is its key policy for Scotland’s future, but it has not got a clue about it. Investors say that the referendum makes the policy unsupportable and that separation makes it unaffordable, but the people who actually build the technology say that it is technically undeliverable. Last week, the First Minister had to apologise for misleading Parliament, but is he misleading Scotland on energy every day of every week?

Nicola Sturgeon (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Southside)

There is a renewables route map, published by this Government. I suggest that Iain Gray reads it.

The companies are investing—Mitsubishi, Doosan and Gamesa. Iain Gray talks about people not wanting to hear. Let me draw to his attention something that was said at the weekend by Ian Smart, who tried to be a Labour candidate at the most recent election. He said that it is time for Labour to realise

“that it is not that people don’t hear the message. It is that they don’t like what they are hearing.”

It is time that Iain Gray paid attention to that message.

Secretary of State for Scotland (Meetings)

Annabel Goldie (Conservative, West Scotland)

2. To ask the Deputy First Minister when she will next meet the Secretary of State for Scotland. (S4F-00215)

Nicola Sturgeon (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Southside)

Sadly, I have no plans to meet the Secretary of State for Scotland in the near future.

Annabel Goldie (Conservative, West Scotland)

This week’s Citigroup report did not talk about oil and gas; it talked about the Scottish National Party’s policy on energy and, in particular, renewable power. It specifically warned that, in an independent Scotland, we would require an annual subsidy of around £4 billion, which would mean an estimated hike of nearly £900 for every Scottish household and £2 billion for Scottish businesses. The Deputy First Minister described the report as wrong and flawed. Can she tell me which bit of the estimates is wrong and flawed? If she cannot, how can she justify placing such an intolerable burden on Scotland?

Nicola Sturgeon (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Southside)

I am sure that Annabel Goldie will be relieved to hear that I do not intend to replicate the love-in between her and Alex Salmond last week. However, I recognise that this is her last appearance at First Minister’s question time, and I thank her for her contribution and wish her well in the future on behalf of all members. [Applause.]

I disagree with all the conclusions in the Citigroup report. However, it is interesting that the Tories have learned nothing in 15 years. In 1997, John Major said that devolution would frighten off inward investment. Labour said then that he was wrong. It has now adopted the Tory response.

It is a fact that renewables are a success story in Scotland. We are talking about something that we are doing incredibly well, and we have the potential to do even better. Surely even the Opposition parties in the Parliament can find it within themselves to get behind the Government’s ambition.

I referred to the specific point that Annabel Goldie made in my answer to Iain Gray. Peter Jones makes the very point in The Times today that the report is based on the erroneous assumption that, post-independence, the rest of the United Kingdom would not buy Scottish renewable energy. To get anywhere near its obligations, the UK needs Scottish renewables. That is the reality.

Annabel Goldie (Conservative, West Scotland)

The Deputy First Minister may rest assured that I shall not conduct a love-in. However, I thank her for her kind remarks. I have immensely enjoyed being leader of my party in Scotland and, to encourage her, I say, do not give up hope, dear.

I am accustomed to a brazen and blustering First Minister—indeed, there was no surprise that his comment on the Citigroup report was, “So what?”—but I had hoped for a more thoughtful response from the Deputy First Minister. The reality is that, in an independent Scotland in which we generate nearly all our own energy from renewables and are liable for all our own subsidy, someone has to foot the bill. It is interesting to see from the running commentary that is going on how uncomfortable the SNP is with the report. Either households and businesses will fork out much more money than they currently do to pay their bills, or taxes will increase to let the Government pay the subsidy. Why does the Deputy First Minister not simply admit that the best way to maintain secure energy supplies at affordable levels in Scotland is by Scotland staying within the United Kingdom?

Nicola Sturgeon (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Southside)

On Annabel Goldie’s earlier remarks, I think that I can say without fear of contradiction that I am the only deputy leader in the Parliament who can say that she is perfectly happy with her current leader.

I was not sure whether Annabel Goldie was going to extol the virtues of the union or nuclear power at the end of her question. The Tories are becoming increasingly out of touch on both issues. Let me make things simple for her. The UK Government will need Scottish renewables to get anywhere near the renewable energy obligations that it has to meet. The price that it pays for that Scottish energy, particularly in the post-renewables obligation certificate era, will reflect that. Renewables are a success story for Scotland, and there is potential for enormous growth and great job creation in the area. It is time that all members got behind the renewables revolution in Scotland and stopped talking it down.

Jamie Hepburn (Scottish National Party, Cumbernauld and Kilsyth)

Is the Deputy First Minister aware of Allied Bakeries’ decision to consult on the future of the Patak’s factory in Cumbernauld in my constituency? Does she share my concern that the consultation should be genuine and open and should, hopefully, result in a long-term future for that site? However, if worse comes to worst and the company decides to close the factory, what reassurances can she give me that the Scottish Government will be able to step in and help the 108 employees there?

Nicola Sturgeon (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Southside)

I am aware of the situation and I can understand the member’s concern and the deep concern of his constituents. The news that Patak’s is to end production at its Lanarkshire bakery is extremely disappointing. I reassure Jamie Hepburn that the Scottish Government’s partnership action for continuing employment team has already made contact with the parent company, Allied Bakeries, to see what assistance can be offered to the employees who are affected by the announcement. The Scottish Government stands ready to help in any way that we can.

Cabinet Meeting

Willie Rennie (Liberal Democrat, Mid Scotland and Fife)

3. To ask the Deputy First Minister what issues will be discussed at the next meeting of the Cabinet. (S4F-00228)

Nicola Sturgeon (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Southside)

The next meeting of the Cabinet will discuss issues of importance to the people of Scotland.

Willie Rennie (Liberal Democrat, Mid Scotland and Fife)

More than 1,000 deaths and countless acts of antisocial behaviour in Scotland are as a result of the abuse of cheap alcohol. How concerned is the Deputy First Minister that retailers are openly promoting their online delivery services and other underhand tactics to get round the law that the Scottish Parliament agreed last year to limit multibuy discounts? Will she join me in condemning that behaviour?

Nicola Sturgeon (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Southside)

I thank Willie Rennie for a very important question. In my view, the quantity discount ban is extremely important. If it stops someone who goes into a supermarket intending to buy only one bottle of wine buying, for example, three bottles of wine, that is a step in the right direction, but make no mistake: the quantity discount ban was intended to operate in conjunction with minimum pricing, and it will be much stronger when it does so.

I welcome Willie Rennie’s comments but, more important, I welcome his and his party’s support now for minimum pricing. I look forward to persuading others in the chamber that that is the right thing to do.

Willie Rennie (Liberal Democrat, Mid Scotland and Fife)

Big business has already tried to undermine the democratic will of the Parliament on the 2010 legislation. As the Deputy First Minister points out, we support the Government’s fresh plans for alcohol minimum pricing, as do the Greens and some others in the Parliament. Some businesses get it as well and support the plans, but others do not understand that they have a social responsibility to the communities in which they operate. Big business has lost the argument on the need for strong action on alcohol, but it now resorts to threats of legal tactics, using its wealth and might. What message does the Deputy First Minister have for big business acting in that destructive way? How will the Government get the message out to big business that it needs to back off?

Nicola Sturgeon (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Southside)

Willie Rennie is spot on to highlight the fact that significant key players in the alcohol industry now support minimum pricing. I certainly welcome that. Again, just as I look forward to persuading other members in the Parliament on minimum pricing, I look forward to persuading other parts of the industry on it as well.

Obviously, companies will take their own decisions, and it is their right to do so. However, if the Alcohol (Minimum Pricing) (Scotland) Bill is passed, I hope that companies and, indeed, others right across Scotland will recognise the clear will of the Parliament and act in a socially responsible manner. There is no doubt in my mind that, although minimum pricing is not a magic bullet that, in and of itself, will solve our problem with alcohol, it is nevertheless an essential part of a comprehensive approach. Right now, it is the missing bit of the jigsaw. I look forward to the day when the Parliament puts that right.

Charities and Voluntary Organisations (Financial Pressures)

Rob Gibson (Scottish National Party, Caithness, Sutherland and Ross)

4. To ask the Deputy First Minister how the Scottish Government can alleviate the financial pressures on charities and voluntary organisations. (S4F-00220)

Nicola Sturgeon (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Southside)

The third sector has a major role in Scotland’s future, especially during a period of economic austerity. Over the next three years, the Scottish Government will provide £73.5 million to the third sector, which compares with funding of £62.1 million over the final three years of the previous Administration. Despite the difficult financial pressures that the Scottish Government faces, that represents a funding increase for the third sector of 18.3 per cent.

Rob Gibson (Scottish National Party, Caithness, Sutherland and Ross)

I thank the Deputy First Minister for her assurances.

In his report last June, Campbell Christie, who, as has been noted, is sorely missed, highlighted the fact that

“We must prioritise expenditure on public services which prevent negative outcomes from arising.”

Will the Deputy First Minister ensure that women and children with experience of domestic abuse in Caithness, Sutherland and Ross-shire and throughout Scotland get the level of funding for their services that they need from the Scottish Government as a lead partner in their support, and will she urge local authorities to maintain and improve their own contributions and not cut those vital funds?

Nicola Sturgeon (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Southside)

I agree absolutely with both the detail and the thrust of Rob Gibson’s question. His question touches on the importance of preventative spending, which is something that John Swinney prioritised in his recent budget. It also highlights the importance of the work of the many organisations that are working to combat violence against women. I met some of them this week in the context of our work on violence against women. Rob Gibson will be aware that the equality budget in the draft budget has been maintained, notwithstanding the difficult financial circumstances that we face. I very much hope that, subject to due process, that will allow us to continue the very good financial support we give to organisations such as Scottish Women’s Aid to enable them to do their vital work.

Elaine Smith (Labour, Coatbridge and Chryston)

Does the Deputy First Minister agree that a cut of 5 per cent this year to the core funding of Coatbridge citizens advice bureau will have a huge impact on its ability to sustain its current services? What specific action can she take to ensure that my constituents do not suffer a withdrawal or curtailment of those much-needed CAB services?

Nicola Sturgeon (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Southside)

I appreciate and recognise Citizens Advice Scotland’s vital work. In a previous life, I used to work not for the organisation but in the advice sector and I know how important that work is.

The legal aid budget for advice services is being protected. Clearly, the financial circumstances in which we live, which are outwith the Parliament’s control, are having an impact in many areas, but we will continue to do what we can to protect front-line services and prioritise spending on preventative measures. As I said in relation to Scottish Women’s Aid, organisations such as CAS have our utmost support and respect.

Respite for Carers

Jackie Baillie (Labour, Dumbarton)

5. To ask the First Minister what the Scottish Government is doing to ensure that respite provision for carers is available across Scotland. (S4F-00237)

Nicola Sturgeon (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Southside)

First of all, I thank carers across Scotland for their commitment and the support that they provide and I openly recognise that we still have much to do to ensure adequate respite provision for carers in all parts of Scotland. However, we have increased the number of respite weeks by more than 10,000, which will benefit carers. I hope that Jackie Baillie and other members welcome that achievement.

Jackie Baillie (Labour, Dumbarton)

I join the Deputy First Minister in acknowledging the valuable work that carers across Scotland do each and every day. However, does she share my disappointment that more than a third of Scottish councils are cutting respite provision for unpaid carers? Does she really believe that it is right that double-counting of respite care is taking place, with a seven-night stay in a residential home somehow counting as two and a half weeks of care? Finally, does she agree with her own Government’s statistical service, which has acknowledged the double-counting and in effect confirmed that Scotland’s carers have been misled and let down?

Nicola Sturgeon (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Southside)

I regret the tone of Jackie Baillie’s question, given that I tried to be constructive in my response. This is an area of real importance and I have readily acknowledged that we have more to do.

Jackie Baillie is not strictly accurate in her point about the difficulties of data collection, which we have acknowledged. Although figures are not comparable between councils, that does not affect the changes and the increase in respite weeks over time.

I recognise that we have more to do in this area. The enormous debt of gratitude that we all owe to carers must be expressed in tangible and meaningful ways, which is why this year we are investing £3 million in short breaks and why we have made it clear that 20 per cent of the change fund must go on support for carers. I want to point out the real progress that has been made, but I also recognise that we still have work to do not only to improve provision generally but to ensure that such improvement is consistent across the country. I hope that, on this of all issues, we can unite and get behind the Government’s efforts to see improvements.

Mary Scanlon (Conservative, Highlands and Islands)

Given that the charitable, voluntary and independent sectors can provide high-quality respite care at competitive rates, how will the Deputy First Minister ensure that they are given equal access and consideration in the tendering process for respite care?

Nicola Sturgeon (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Southside)

I mentioned in my answer to Jackie Baillie the investment of £3 million. Last year, we invested £1 million, which is increasing to £3 million, for the provision of short breaks by the voluntary sector. The voluntary sector’s role in that regard cannot be overstated, as it is vital.

I also mentioned the change fund and the 20 per cent that is set aside within that for support for carers. The involvement of the voluntary sector in the disbursement of that change fund is also vital.

Members have made legitimate points, which I recognise and take on board. We are going in the right direction with respite care and support for carers, but there is still an awful lot for us to do.

Knife Crime

John Finnie (Scottish National Party, Highlands and Islands)

6. To ask the First Minister what action the Scottish Government is taking to tackle knife crime. (S4F-00226)

Nicola Sturgeon (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Southside)

Every single knife incident is one too many. The latest official statistics show a downward trajectory in the fight against knives, but there will be absolutely no let-up in our efforts. That is why, only this week, following a doubling of funding, the Cabinet Secretary for Justice announced the roll-out of the very successful no knives, better lives education campaign to six new areas of Scotland.

John Finnie (Scottish National Party, Highlands and Islands)

Does the Scottish Government welcome the publication this week of the Scottish crime and justice survey 2010-11? Is that seen as a further demonstration of the benefit of the 1,000 additional police officers who are working to protect our communities?

Nicola Sturgeon (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Southside)

I very much welcome the crime and justice survey that was published this week. It shows that overall crime is down significantly and that recorded crime is at a 35-year low. I think that that is related directly to the 1,000 extra police officers who have been put on the streets of Scotland by this justice secretary and this Government. Our commitment to keeping those officers there will help us to drive down crime even further.

I was disturbed to read in that survey about the link between crime—particularly violent crime—and alcohol, which simply strengthens my resolve to take tough action in solving and addressing our problem with alcohol misuse.

James Kelly (Labour, Rutherglen)

I welcome the roll-out of no knives, better lives to South Lanarkshire. However, does the Deputy First Minister agree that the Scottish Government should instigate an urgent review of bail procedures, particularly bearing in mind that the killer of Reamonn Gormley was out on bail despite a string of previous offences? That has caused great bitterness and anger among many of my constituents.

Nicola Sturgeon (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Southside)

I understand James Kelly’s question and his reasons for asking it. It is impossible to imagine the grief and distress that the family of Reamonn Gormley is suffering, and the condolences of all members in the chamber go out to them. Bail procedures are a matter for courts. However, it is worth pointing out that the average length of custodial sentences for carrying an offensive weapon has increased from 118 days in 2005-06 to 274 days in 2009-10. That is the highest level for a decade.

As I said in the first sentence of my first answer, one knife crime that leads to the type of tragedy that James Kelly mentioned is one too many. While those crimes continue to happen we should never let up. However, we are seeing progress thanks to the measures that the justice secretary has taken, and we will continue to do everything possible to drive knife crime down even further.

Christina McKelvie (Scottish National Party, Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse)

The local roll-out of the no knives, better lives campaign in South Lanarkshire has been welcomed by people in my constituency and throughout the region, where communities have been shocked by high-profile knife murders in recent months. Does the Deputy First Minister agree that it is preventative action such as that campaign, and not mandatory sentences, that will tackle the problem of knife crime at its roots by changing the culture on our streets?

Nicola Sturgeon (Scottish National Party, Glasgow Southside)

As I have already said, the length of sentences is increasing, which is appropriate given the serious problem of knife crime. I agree with Christina McKelvie that the strength of the no knives, better lives campaign is that it is evidence based and has been proven to work. We should be rolling out things that have been proven to work, which is why the justice secretary’s announcement this week is so welcome, and why I hope that every member in the chamber will unite behind the measure so that we can continue to see knife crime in this country fall.

12:30 Meeting suspended.

14:00 On resuming—

Further Education Colleges (Unemployed People)

Mary Scanlon (Conservative, Highlands and Islands)

1. To ask the Scottish Executive what assistance is being given to further education colleges to help unemployed people back into work. (S4O-00308)

Alasdair Allan (Scottish National Party, Na h-Eileanan an Iar)

By the end of this spending review period we will have invested £4.7 billion in colleges, which is 40 per cent more than the combined investment that was made under the last two terms of the previous Administration.

We have made it clear that we wish colleges to play a full part in our guarantee to all 16 to 19-year-olds through the opportunities for all initiative. We have also indicated the priority that we attach to colleges providing learning opportunities to 20 to 24-year-olds, to those looking for jobs and to those with low or out-of-date skills.

Mary Scanlon (Conservative, Highlands and Islands)

The Welfare Reform Bill provides opportunities for support to get people back into work. Has the minister met the two main contractors who will deliver the programme in Scotland, Ingeus Deloitte and Working Links, to ensure that our further education colleges are given every opportunity to provide employability and training programmes for people who are currently unemployed?

Alasdair Allan (Scottish National Party, Na h-Eileanan an Iar)

I have not met those two firms. The Scottish Government keeps a close eye on and is in contact with the United Kingdom Government with regard to its proposals for welfare reform, some of which, as the member will be aware, are quite contentious.

Tricia Marwick (None, Mid Fife and Glenrothes)

Question two, Neil Findlay.

Neil Findlay (Labour, Lothian)

To ask the Scottish Executive—

Mary Scanlon (Conservative, Highlands and Islands)

Where is the answer? That was disgusting.

Neil Findlay (Labour, Lothian)

Certainly.

College Funding (Reduction)

Neil Findlay (Labour, Lothian)

2. To ask the Scottish Executive what impact the 20 per cent real-terms reduction in college funding will have over the next four years. (S4O-00309)

Michael Russell (Scottish National Party, Argyll and Bute)

Although we have had no option but to ask colleges to share in the extraordinary £3.3 billion reduction by Westminster in Scotland’s block grant over the spending review period, we have asked them to retain a clear focus on their core business. That includes playing a full part in our guarantee to all 16 to 19-year-olds as part of our commitment to the opportunities for all initiative, and providing learning opportunities to 20 to 24-year-olds, to those looking for jobs and to those with low or out-of-date skills.

Neil Findlay (Labour, Lothian)

Job losses, cuts in student places and funding slashed—it is quite clear that the Cabinet Secretary for Education and Lifelong Learning sees the college sector very much as the poor and getting poorer relation. What does the cabinet secretary say to students at West Lothian College, in my region, who will be denied a place in August because places have been cut, courses closed and lecturers made redundant?

Michael Russell (Scottish National Party, Argyll and Bute)

For a start, I would say, “Don’t listen to Mr Findlay.” They should be listening to the college principals and others, with whom I am engaged in a constructive dialogue. This morning, I was introduced at a gathering of college principals by the principal of West Lothian College.

We are engaging in a strong, productive and firm dialogue about two things, about the real difficulties—

Neil Findlay (Labour, Lothian)

Dream on.

Michael Russell (Scottish National Party, Argyll and Bute)

The important thing, as members should know, is that we need to have a constructive discussion about how we take forward necessary reforms in Scotland in the context of a Westminster budget. It would be far better if we were doing it in the context of independence. I would encourage all who are thinking about this issue to do so in the context of an independent Scotland. Meanwhile, I will do this job, in co-operation with the principals, with the aim of getting the best for our young people. If any Labour member—or any Opposition member at all—wants to help in that, they will be very welcome.

Liam McArthur (Liberal Democrat, Orkney Islands)

During the course of that constructive dialogue with colleges, will the cabinet secretary look seriously at the reprofiling of the budget cuts over the course of the current spending review? Will he also be able to offer some assurance that, in terms of the Barnett consequentials arising from the council tax freeze south of the border, he will make the strongest case possible to his colleague, the Cabinet Secretary for Finance, Employment and Sustainable Growth?

Michael Russell (Scottish National Party, Argyll and Bute)

That is a constructive contribution. Reprofiling is hard to do, given the way in which the cuts are coming from the Liberal Democrat and Conservative coalition. However, if there is reprofiling that can constructively be done and if the member, as a member of the Education and Culture Committee, can make suggestions in that regard, having seen the budget, I will consider them.

The Barnett consequentials will be an issue for the Cabinet Secretary for Finance, Employment and Sustainable Growth and the Cabinet. I can make no comment on that.

George Adam (Scottish National Party, Paisley)

Can the cabinet secretary confirm how spending on further education in Scotland compares with the rest of the United Kingdom?

Michael Russell (Scottish National Party, Argyll and Bute)

That is an interesting question. In England, of course, the UK Government is reducing investment in further education by £1.1 billion, from £4.3 billion to £3.2 billion, which is proportionately a larger cut, as it is a 25 per cent reduction in cash terms, which is 7 per cent higher than the reduction in college sector funding in Scotland over the same period.

Interestingly, from the beginning of this Government’s time in office through to the end of the spending review period, we will have invested £4.7 billion in colleges alone, which is 40 per cent more in cash terms than the investment made in two terms of the previous Administration.

Human Rights Education

Hanzala Malik (Labour, Glasgow)

3. To ask the Scottish Executive how it supports work on human rights education in schools, colleges and universities. (S4O-00310)

Alasdair Allan (Scottish National Party, Na h-Eileanan an Iar)

The Scottish Government is committed to creating a modern, inclusive Scotland, which respects, promotes and realises human rights for all citizens.

Education has an important role and enabling young people to develop as responsible global citizens is at the heart of the curriculum for excellence. Support on global citizenship and human rights education is being provided by a range of public and non-governmental bodies, including Education Scotland, the Scottish Human Rights Commission, UNICEF, Amnesty International, Oxfam, Black and Ethnic Minorities Infrastructure in Scotland and members of the IDEAS network.

Hanzala Malik (Labour, Glasgow)

When will there be national implementation of the strategy and the development of human rights education in Scotland? Moreover, is the minister in a position to advise when the Scottish Human Rights Commission will promote national awareness, respect and understanding of human rights and when it will publish its report?

Alasdair Allan (Scottish National Party, Na h-Eileanan an Iar)

I cannot speak directly for the Human Rights Commission, but I can certainly say that the Government is committed to many of the things that it has recommended, which is why citizenship, including human rights, is central to the curriculum for excellence. That is also why the Government is keen to engage with the cross-party group on human rights. I will certainly take on board what the member says about timescales and endeavour to write back to him.

Further Education (Regionalisation)

Anne McTaggart (Labour, Glasgow)

4. To ask the Scottish Executive what the implications are for local access under the regionalisation approach proposed for the further education sector. (S4O-00311)

Michael Russell (Scottish National Party, Argyll and Bute)

We are currently consulting on the prospect of a regional alignment of the college sector. Only after we have closely considered the responses to the consultation will we be in a position to reach a final view about its future shape. However, we regard continued local access to further education as of key importance.

Anne McTaggart (Labour, Glasgow)

Many of the people I represent have lost out through community campus closures that have already taken place. How will the minister address concerns about a potential increase in travel, added childcare time and its cost and the accessibility needs of the most disadvantaged people affected by rationalisation?

Michael Russell (Scottish National Party, Argyll and Bute)

I do not see how Anne McTaggart can know who will be affected by this approach, because I have just made it clear that we are consulting on regionalisation. Indeed, I told the principals this morning that nothing is cast in stone and that I was looking to hear proposals and ideas from the colleges about how best this would work. I also stress—I stressed it in my first answer and will do so again—that local access is of strong importance. Although regionalisation should certainly reduce the overheads and the bureaucracy and, I hope, make the organisations more responsive, I see no reason at all why it should reduce local access.

Claire Baker (Labour, Mid Scotland and Fife)

Anne McTaggart raises the issue of access. Does the cabinet secretary accept that there is a significant difference between the SNP’s manifesto pledge to maintain student numbers and its pledge to the National Union of Students Scotland and to students to protect college places, and will he say which promise the Scottish Government will keep?

Michael Russell (Scottish National Party, Argyll and Bute)

No, I do not.

Room 13

Jean Urquhart (Scottish National Party, Highlands and Islands)

5. To ask the Scottish Government what its position is on the importance and value of the organisation, Room 13, which is based at Caol primary school in Lochaber. (S4O-00312)

Michael Russell (Scottish National Party, Argyll and Bute)

Room 13 is a successful international social enterprise organisation, grown from the desire of students in a small Lochaber school to establish an in-school art studio. The work is demonstrated and exhibited in this Parliament. Room 13 is an excellent example of the willingness of Scottish schools to develop the ideas of children.

I congratulate Highland Council on supporting and encouraging the growth of Room 13, and we should be proud of what it has become. Others should emulate it—and they are.

Jean Urquhart (Scottish National Party, Highlands and Islands)

I am glad that the cabinet secretary approves of the work done by Room 13 and values it. How does he suggest that we could spread the word about that work to other schools in Scotland? I would like to request that some of the directors of and other people involved with Room 13 could meet the minister to discuss how to take it forward. Will he agree to that?

Michael Russell (Scottish National Party, Argyll and Bute)

I have, of course, already met people from Room 13. I am happy to do so again, but I think it might be more practical if we got them to meet Education Scotland, which regularly communicates with all schools to share good practice. It seems to me that Room 13 is a good example of good practice and Education Scotland might be of great use to it in allowing it to spread the word. I am also happy to meet the member to discuss how I can help in that way.

Jamie McGrigor (Conservative, Highlands and Islands)

Like Jean Urquhart, I commend all those involved in Room 13. Does the minister agree that Room 13 network schools such as Duror in Appin and Strachur primary in Argyll are also worthy of support? Will he encourage other schools to follow those excellent examples so that we can get more artists in the Highlands?

Michael Russell (Scottish National Party, Argyll and Bute)

I find it difficult to disagree with a single word that Mr McGrigor has said on this occasion, particularly as that work impinges on my constituency. I am happy to agree with him whole-heartedly.

Educational Attainment (Rural Areas)

Mike MacKenzie (Scottish National Party, Highlands and Islands)

6. To ask the Scottish Government what it is doing to raise the educational attainment level of young people in rural areas. (S4O-00313)

Michael Russell (Scottish National Party, Argyll and Bute)

Young people in rural areas are generally doing well: school leavers in rural schools have higher than average tariff scores and a higher percentage achieve one or more advanced higher.

I am ambitious for all our young people and want to build on current achievements. I have brought together a group of successful head teachers—one of whom is from Argyll and Bute—to advise me on improving attainment, based on their extensive expertise. They will report to me in December.

The Scottish Government and the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities have set up a commission on the delivery of rural education to consider how to improve attainment and life chances for young people in rural areas. The commission will make its recommendations in August 2012.

Mike MacKenzie (Scottish National Party, Highlands and Islands)

Will the cabinet secretary comment on the progress made by the commission on the delivery of rural education, particularly as regards recognising the importance of rural schools in the preservation, support and development of the communities they serve? Does he recognise that in order to safeguard the future of threatened rural schools, a range of interventions might have to be made, such as the provision of affordable housing in the catchment areas of vulnerable schools? I recognise that such interventions are outwith the remit of the department for education and lifelong learning, so does the scope of the commission permit it to make such recommendations to other Government departments?

Michael Russell (Scottish National Party, Argyll and Bute)

First, I commend the Argyll rural schools network on its campaign on these precise issues. It has now been shortlisted for public campaign of the year by The Herald newspaper, and I think that that shows the great enthusiasm, commitment and skill of those who have been arguing for rural schools throughout Scotland and certainly in Argyll and Bute.

The member raises some key issues. The commission, of course, was set up in reaction to this issue across the whole of Scotland. It has now met twice and it has issued its call for evidence. It is due to report its findings, as I said, in August 2012. It will consider a wide range of issues about the delivery of rural education. I can set the member’s mind at rest: the commission has a broad remit. It is being asked to consider, among other things, how the delivery of education in rural areas can maximise attainment and it will also consider the links between rural education and the preservation, support and development of rural communities. The commission will report to me and to COSLA and I certainly intend to share its findings, particularly on these issues, with my Cabinet colleagues.

Elizabeth Smith (Conservative, Mid Scotland and Fife)

What discussions has the Scottish Government had with local authorities in predominantly rural communities with a view to widening access to advanced higher courses for pupils in those areas?

Michael Russell (Scottish National Party, Argyll and Bute)

There is a continuing dialogue with all Scottish local authorities, particularly those in rural areas, about how to achieve the broadest delivery of advanced highers. The member is right to raise the need to ensure that young people in secondary education in rural areas are not disadvantaged by a limitation on choices. Most rural authorities are aware of the issue, and I encourage them as much as I can.

Further and Higher Education (South of Scotland)

Paul Wheelhouse (Scottish National Party, South Scotland)

7. To ask the Scottish Government what support is being given to promote further and higher education in the south of Scotland. (S4O-00314)

Michael Russell (Scottish National Party, Argyll and Bute)

The Scottish Further and Higher Education Funding Council invests around £2 billion per year across universities and colleges in Scotland. That includes the directing of significant specific funding support towards the on-going development in the south of Scotland of the Scottish Borders campus and the Crichton campus in Dumfries.

Further to that, in my recent letter of guidance, I have asked the Scottish funding council to take steps to secure a more coherent spread of provision across Scotland, and to adopt a more differentiated and outcomes-based approach in seeking ways to grow provision in areas such as Dumfries and Galloway, where provision remains low relative to the population.

Paul Wheelhouse (Scottish National Party, South Scotland)

The Borders and Dumfries and Galloway are the two local authority areas with the highest proportion of students attending English higher education institutions—more than 15 per cent of students in those areas attend such institutions, whereas the figure for Scotland is 7 per cent. Given that high dependency on English HEIs, there is a risk that many of those students will be adversely affected by the imposition in England of tuition fees of up to £9,000 per annum.

Will the cabinet secretary commit to monitoring the impact on higher education participation rates and student hardship in the Borders and Dumfries and Galloway? If necessary, will he target resource to ensure that local students do not suffer as a result of decisions taken in another place?

Michael Russell (Scottish National Party, Argyll and Bute)

I can certainly give the member an assurance that we will monitor the impact on participation in Dumfries and Galloway.

As I have said before, I believe that the policy of successive UK Governments on higher education tuition fees is misguided. For our part, the Scottish Government provides Scotland-domiciled students and their parents with the continued reassurance of knowing that access to higher education in Scotland is free, and that we will ensure that students who choose to study elsewhere in the UK are not liable to pay fees up front. Loans are available to assist with those fees.

More broadly, in the context of the post-16 reform programme, we have already announced our intention to legislate to set achievable but ambitious goals for access to higher education for the poorest students.

After-school Clubs and Out-of-school Care

John Scott (Conservative, Ayr)

8. To ask the Scottish Executive what steps it is taking to encourage the provision of after-school clubs and out-of-school care. (S4O-00315)

Angela Constance (Scottish National Party, Almond Valley)

All parents should have the choice of a range of high-quality and flexible childcare, and we are working with all sectors and partners to increase the capacity, range and flexibility of childcare services.

The majority of out-of-school care services are run at a grass-roots, community level, so I am delighted that we have announced the first allocation from our £50 million contribution to the early years change fund to provide £1.5 million per annum over the next three years to create a new communities and families fund, which will support local communities in, and give them a direct route for, deciding what services are available locally.

John Scott (Conservative, Ayr)

The minister will know from our recent correspondence that there is concern among the after-school clubs in my constituency that the intention to require managers of after-school clubs to attain a degree-equivalent Scottish credit and qualifications framework level 9 qualification could lead to an exodus of managers from after-school clubs to the better-remunerated day care nursery sector.

I appreciate the need to ensure that managers of after-school clubs are suitably qualified to undertake that role, but what specific reassurances can the minister offer that requiring a degree-equivalent level 9 qualification will not seriously impact on the number of people who are willing to act as after-school club managers?

Angela Constance (Scottish National Party, Almond Valley)

Mr Scott and I have, indeed, been in correspondence on the matter. I welcome the fact that he recognises the need for the workforce that works with children in out-of-school provision to be adequately qualified to ensure that our children get the best start in life.

I should also say to Mr Scott that we consulted extensively on the issue, and that 60 per cent of those who responded agreed that the level 9 qualification was appropriate. Indeed, a further 18 per cent suggested that a qualification of a higher nature was required.

As the member is aware, the care inspectorate is working hard to support smaller services so that we can be flexible. There is the opportunity for smaller services to share resources. We will keep a watching brief on that because we want to do all that we can to support the out-of-school care network.

Kenneth Macintosh (Labour, Eastwood)

What does the minister make of figures from the care inspectorate this week that show that—despite the Government’s intentions—one in four crèches in Scotland has closed down, the number of out-of-school clubs has dropped from 808 to 745, the number of children and family centres has dropped from 142 to 136 and the number of playgroups has fallen from 486 to 416?

Angela Constance (Scottish National Party, Almond Valley)

Like Mr Macintosh I read with great interest those figures from the care inspectorate. No clear narrative explains the figures, other than the fact that the nought-to-15 population is decreasing throughout Scotland. However, the figures also showed that the use of nurseries and childminders had increased.

With regard to out-of-school care, where that care provided an additional service, such as a breakfast club or a holiday play scheme, numbers had increased. The voluntary sector is expanding in the out-of-school network. Nonetheless, this is a big agenda that is very much at the heart of all the Government’s work in the early years. The early years task force will meet for the first time next week.

Gaelic

Dave Thompson (Scottish National Party, Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch)

9. To ask the Scottish Government what plans it has to raise the status of Gaelic in the wider community. (S4O-00316)

Alasdair Allan (Scottish National Party, Na h-Eileanan an Iar)

All the Government’s activity in support of Gaelic aims to raise the status of the language in the wider community. That is done through education and learning, media and broadcasting, and arts and heritage. We are confident that the next national plan for Gaelic, currently out for consultation, will contribute to that aim.

Dave Thompson (Scottish National Party, Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch)

The minister will be aware that Comunn na Gàidhlig has a successful bilingual signs scheme for businesses and community groups. Recent research shows that bilingual signage has economic benefits for the businesses concerned, and there is a high demand. It is a great way of raising the profile of Gaelic in the community.

However, the demand for the service exceeds the funds. Does the minister have any plans to help Comunn na Gàidhlig to draw down extra funds so that the demand for the service can be met?

Alasdair Allan (Scottish National Party, Na h-Eileanan an Iar)

I have no doubt that the future extent of those activities will be covered during the discussions on the draft Gaelic plan.

The scheme is very good and I commend Highlands and Islands Enterprise for supporting it. The scheme increases the visibility of the Gaelic language in Scotland—a language that needs to be seen, heard and used. However, it has been demonstrated that a range of other measures have made progress in that area. Perhaps this is the opportunity to correct the more hysterical press on the issue, which has attributed the figure for the entire Gaelic budget in Scotland to Gaelic signs.

Liam McArthur (Liberal Democrat, Orkney Islands)

I can confirm that demand for the signage in my constituency is likely to be limited.

Is the teaching of Gaelic in schools in Orkney a priority that the education authority ought to take on board?

Alasdair Allan (Scottish National Party, Na h-Eileanan an Iar)

The member will be well aware that I am also responsible for the Scots language and that I have a strong interest in that subject. The Norse and Scots heritage of Orkney should be celebrated.

The Gaelic language plan recognises that Gaelic belongs to Scotland, but I for one have an interest in recognising the particular requirements of the northern isles in that respect. However, it would be helpful if we recognised that Gaelic and, indeed, Orcadian are not threatened by each other but by another world language.

Further Education (Widening Access)

Jenny Marra (Labour, North East Scotland)

10. To ask the Scottish Executive what steps it is taking to guarantee widening access to further education. (S4O-00317)

Michael Russell (Scottish National Party, Argyll and Bute)

Further education colleges already offer learning opportunities to students from a wide variety of backgrounds. Our plans for reforming post-16 learning are predicated on ensuring that such provision is better aligned with jobs and growth, that it is sustainable, and that it continues to focus on improving life chances. As part of that reform, we want to consider how best to ensure wider access to all post-16 learning, including that which is offered by colleges.

Jenny Marra (Labour, North East Scotland)

Students at Angus College staged their fight the 400 campaign at lunch time on Tuesday. Those students expect 400 places at their college to be cut next year. Will the cabinet secretary guarantee to keep those places, as was promised in the Scottish National Party’s manifesto?

The cabinet secretary has cited his cuts as coming from Westminster to the colleges. Did Westminster specifically tell him to cut the college budgets so drastically? Did the Government have no choice in the matter?

Michael Russell (Scottish National Party, Argyll and Bute)

I always feel with Jenny Marra’s questions that I should simply say, “Guilty as charged and I’d like to have other offences taken into consideration.” It is silly.

We need to focus on how we can together improve Scottish further education, and we can do that. For example, the principal of Angus College was at the meeting of principals that I attended this morning, and he asked the question. We need to engage with the reality. Substantial change is needed. Even if there were no financial imperatives, the vast majority of principals and those involved in further education in Scotland would say that reform was overdue. We need to reform and focus on getting the college system better aligned with the labour market and ensuring that we are not wasting money. The drop-out rate in colleges is 28 per cent, or almost 30 per cent. That is utterly wasteful. In addition, we have financial pressures.

It is, of course, always a matter of choices. If the member has better choices that she wishes to be made or alternative choices to be made within the budget figures that have been provided to her—she mentioned them at the Education and Culture Committee meeting last week—she should by all means tell us about them. Indeed, if she has a set of suggestions, I am happy to meet her. Otherwise, let us try to find a way of ensuring that we do our best for Scotland’s young people, and let us do so on the basis of facts.

The principal of Angus College could not know whether there will be 2,000 fewer places as he asserted in a letter to Richard Baker, and I hope that the member is not encouraging the students to believe that there will be 400 fewer places. She could not know that, and neither could the students.

College Principals and Chairs (Meetings)

John Pentland (Labour, Motherwell and Wishaw)

11. To ask the Scottish Executive when the Cabinet Secretary for Education and Lifelong Learning last met college principals and chairs and what was discussed. (S4O-00318)

Michael Russell (Scottish National Party, Argyll and Bute)

As I have now said several times, I think, I met college principals and chairs only this morning in Dunblane as part of the consultation process on our pre-legislative paper entitled “Putting Learners at the Centre—Delivering our Ambitions for Post-16 Education.” I shall continue to meet principals individually and collectively in the weeks and months ahead. Indeed, I have met two principals in their colleges this week already.

John Pentland (Labour, Motherwell and Wishaw)

I thank the cabinet secretary again for that information.

I am sure that the meeting that the cabinet secretary mentioned will have drawn to his attention the fact that many colleges are located in, and serve students from, areas of high unemployment and deprivation, in which the proportion of school pupils who go on to university can be as low as 5 per cent. Does he accept that this year’s large 10 per cent cut in college budgets, which is to be followed by a huge 20 per cent cut next year, is a severe blow that falls far more heavily on those areas?

Michael Russell (Scottish National Party, Argyll and Bute)

I do not accept the premise of the question. We are in a difficult situation, which is the result of being in the union. It would be far better if we were independent; we would then not be in the difficulties that we are in. [Interruption.] I hear a sharp intake of breath from the Labour benches. I hope that it was a revelatory intake of breath and that one more has suddenly been converted to the crusade. If they have not been, I will keep trying.

The reality is that we would be doing far better if we were able to spend our own money in the way that we should be spending it. However, within the constraints that we have, I am always open to ideas. If Mr Pentland can come to me with constructive ideas about how the education budget could be better spent, I shall listen to him with interest. If he cannot do so, I hope that he will make the second choice and work with us to ensure that the prospects of Scotland’s young people are improved through a process of constructive reform.

Community Colleges

Bob Doris (Scottish National Party, Glasgow)

12. No pressure then, Presiding Officer.

To ask the Scottish Government what role it envisages for community colleges under its skills and employability strategies. (S4O-00319)