Senedd Cymru (Welsh Parliament), 15 June 2016

274 contributions from 49 members. The official report.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

I call the Assembly to order.

1. 1. Questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Economy and Infrastructure

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The first item on our agenda this afternoon is questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Economy and Infrastructure, and the first question, Jayne Bryant.

Jayne Bryant (Labour, Newport West)

1. Will the Minister make a statement on the economic benefits of major energy infrastructure projects in Wales? OAQ(5)0008(EI)

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Yes. Major energy infrastructure projects are enormously beneficial to the Welsh economy. Energy is one of our most important economic imperatives. We have the potential in Wales for £50 billion of investment in low-carbon electricity production over the next 10 to 15 years.

Jayne Bryant (Labour, Newport West)

Firstly, I’d like to welcome Newport High School to the Chamber today, who are keeping an eye on us, from my constituency. Tidal lagoons create clean, green, eternal energy as consistent as the tide on which it relies. As large-scale energy infrastructure projects, with plans to build tidal lagoons in Cardiff, Newport, and Swansea, they will also create hundreds of jobs. Will the Cabinet Secretary work with UK Government to ensure these projects go ahead, and discuss ways to utilise the local workforce so the benefits can be felt environmentally, socially and economically?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Absolutely, and can I thank the Member for her question and her keen interest in this subject? The sort of development we’re talking about could offer lifelong careers for the young people who are joining us in the gallery today, from the Member’s constituency. We recognise the opportunity that tidal energy generation presents for the economy of Wales, and I hope to have an early meeting with Swansea bay tidal lagoon to discuss the economic aspects of the project. Now, whilst the UK Government’s independent review of tidal lagoon is under way, my officials are continuing to regularly engage with Tidal Lagoon Power and the UK Government to ensure Welsh businesses, and, specifically the local economy, gain the maximum benefit from the project.

David Melding (Conservative, South Wales Central)

Cabinet Secretary, can I assure you you’ll get support from all sides of the Assembly in these efforts? Because what tidal energy offers us is a chance to really get there ahead of the game, lead the world eventually in harnessing this powerful source of energy, and the engineering and the skills that are needed to develop it. And, in particular, if the Swansea lagoon doesn’t go ahead, if this project is not successful, we should renew our efforts to see and develop where this technology will be effective around the coast of Wales.

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Yes, and can I thank the Member for his question, and also for support for this scheme right across the Chamber? The energy environment sector in Wales is enormously important to our future. It employs at the moment somewhere in the region of 58,000 people and provides opportunities for more than 2,000 companies, with a turnover of more than £2.3 billion. I’m very keen to ensure that, as we develop a new economic strategy for Wales, one based on a central pillar of prosperity and security, we make sure that energy security is at the very core of that strategy.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

I concur fully with the comments already made on tidal lagoon and, the potential for Wales, economically and as a world-class leader in this source of energy creation. The Cabinet Secretary will know that major energy infrastructure is often defined in terms of energy generation, but I want to ask the Minister what longer term thought is being given to energy efficiency as a major energy infrastructure. The Welsh Labour Government is to be commended for its steadfast support of energy efficiency initiatives targeted at domestic customers and businesses, and at public sector organisations; the increased investment in the Welsh Government Warm Homes initiative, helping to tackle fuel poverty; the information, advice and support through Resource Efficient Wales; support for businesses through Business Wales, and so on, and so on. Yet the Welsh Government know more than most—in fact, they mention it in their recent strategy—that the gap between our ambition and reality on energy efficiency will take some bridging. So, does the Cabinet Secretary see any role for defining energy efficiency as major infrastructure as one way to bridge that gap, tackle fuel poverty, help decarbonisation by reducing the need to build more power stations, and generating capacity?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Absolutely, and can I thank the Member for his question, and for rightly pointing out that we’ve got a proud record of supporting domestic and business energy efficiency schemes in Wales? The Member may be interested to know that we have large-scale, state-aid-compliant energy efficiency projects that are now being designed and approved by Europe that offer innovative solutions that could be very important to energy-intensive industries, such as steel. And, as I reflect as well on my answer to David Melding, I would say that, in terms of domestic energy efficiency, that would also form a core aspect of the new economic strategy, and in particular energy security.

Russell George (Conservative, Montgomeryshire)

2. Will the Minister make a statement on cross-border transport co-operation? OAQ(5)0011(EI)

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Yes. I fully recognise the importance of cross-border connectivity for the social and economic benefit of both sides of the border. We are engaged with various partners across all modes to seek to maximise the benefits that connectivity can bring across the whole of Wales.

Russell George (Conservative, Montgomeryshire)

Thank you for your answer, Cabinet Secretary. I hope you will be aware of a long-standing issue in my constituency for a proposed bypass for the Llanymynech and Pant area, and I have been in previous correspondence with your predecessor, Edwina Hart, on this. I recently met with Andrew Jones, the transport Minister from the UK Government, in Llanymynech with community representatives. He certainly expressed a willingness to meet with you to discuss this specific project. Would you agree to that meeting, and also would you agree to perhaps provide some information on progress on the specific scheme?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Yes, I would agree to that meeting, and I’d like to thank the Member for bringing this to my attention. I know that he’s given it considerable focus in his time as Assembly Member, and we’re continuing to work with Highways England regarding that particular stretch, and we will continue to meet with them to promote joint working and to develop feasibility studies for future cross-border schemes. Also, my officials are taking into account the work of Highways England on their A5 corridor study, as the outcome could have implications for the scheme that the Member raises.

Hannah Blythyn (Labour, Delyn)

Cabinet Secretary, you’ll know as well as I do that for north Wales to prosper economically, we not only need strong and effective transport links across the region, but across the border with our near neighbours in the north-west of England. Improvement to road links like the A55 and A494 are critical, but we also need a wider transport plan to support crucial cross-border economic collaboration with the north-west of England. Will you therefore provide an update on the development of the north-east Wales metro alongside to boost cross-border economic co-operation?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Can I thank the Member for her question, and say that the economy of north Wales has phenomenal potential? It is our gateway to the world and we wish to see it take flight. We have begun work to advance the development of a north-east Wales metro system. It’s important that we have connectivity across the whole of the region to maximise the opportunities further west and to provide reliable, efficient and quality connectivity south and across the border. Outline proposals are being prepared, and we will be setting out that vision within the first 100 days of this Government. Likewise, I’m keen to ensure that cross-border economic development is a focus of my work, and I intend to host a summit in July for interested parties on both the Welsh and English side of the border.

David Lloyd (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet, rydych yn ymwybodol nad wyf wedi bod yn Aelod o’r Cynulliad yma am bum mlynedd—roedd pum mlynedd o fwlch—ond, rwy’n cofio gofyn yn y Trydydd Cynulliad ynglŷn â’r angen dybryd i drydaneiddio’r rheilffordd rhwng Llundain ac Abertawe. Yn y cyfamser, rwy’n gweld fawr ddim datblygiad yn y maes yna. A allaf i gael diweddariad ynglŷn â’r cynllun i drydaneiddio’r rheilffordd o Lundain i Abertawe?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

First of all, can I welcome the Member back to the Chamber, and say that rail electrification is crucially important to the economy of south Wales, indeed, to the economy of the whole of Wales, and I’ll be pleased to be able to present Members with a written update on this matter?

John Griffiths (Labour, Newport East)

The Severn crossing tolls on the border are a restriction on the south Wales economy and a cause of congestion. Would you agree with me that we should see those crossings become the responsibility of the Welsh Government as quickly as possible and, when that is the case, that those tolls should be abolished to ease that restriction on the local economy, and, indeed, end what is a long-running injustice that has annoyed an awful lot of people and organisations for a long time?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Can I thank the Member for his question and say that we declared very publicly that we believe the tolls should be in the hands of the Welsh Government. Now, it’s estimated that removing the tolls would boost productivity in Wales by something in the region of £100 million or more every year, and I can see no justification for continuing to disadvantage Welsh businesses once the concession ends. Now, it’s our intention, were we able to, to reduce levels of the tolls, alleviating the burden on the economy, but the Member also points out rightly that the tolls are a cause of congestion. So, we also need to ensure that if we remove that cause of congestion, we don’t simply add to the burden and the troubles that are caused at Brynglas tunnels and, instead, we make sure that we resolve the M4 as well.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

I now call on the party spokespeople to ask questions of the Cabinet Secretary, and first this week, the Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Adam Price.

Adam Price (Plaid Cymru, Carmarthen East and Dinefwr)

Diolch, Lywydd. Can I first of all formally congratulate the Cabinet Secretary on his appointment and wish him every success in what is a vitally important role?

Now, you can’t manage what you don’t measure, so the saying goes. When it became clear that Wales was not going to meet the target of closing the gap, relative to the UK, for gross value added, instead of changing the strategy, one of his predecessors as economy Minister decided instead to change the target.

Now, in the last term, the Government described gross disposable household income per head in its annual report as the best single measure of economic well-being. Given the fact that, in the latest figures, Welsh GDHI, relative to the UK, has fallen for the last two years for which figures are available—it’s now down to its lowest level since 2002—will the Cabinet Secretary accept that, according to what is his own Government’s yardstick of success, he’s failing the Welsh economy? What will he, as the new economy Secretary, decide to do—change the strategy or, once again, change the target?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Can I thank the Member for his question and congratulate him on his appointment as well? Indeed, can I congratulate the other two Members of Plaid Cymru who have been appointed to shadow me? Having three shadows makes me feel like a marked man, I must say.

With regard to the specific questions that the Member raises, we will be developing a new economic strategy and I would hope that you would be able to contribute to that, and we will be reviewing those targets. There are many important indicators of economic success, and, let’s face it, we now have record employment levels in Wales. We have unemployment falling faster here than across the rest of the UK. If you look at figures for tourism as well, you’ll see that we have record success as well as on imports, on exports and on inward investment—Wales is performing better today than it did at any other point during devolution.

Adam Price (Plaid Cymru, Carmarthen East and Dinefwr)

I’m amazed to see the Cabinet Secretary refer to exports as a symbol of Welsh success. Over the last two years, Welsh exports have dropped by over £2.6 billion. That’s a drop of 20 per cent in total. Let’s put that in a little bit of context, shall we? That’s the same reduction in exports, proportionally, as the UK experienced in the economic crisis between 2008 and 2009. It’s the equivalent of our current surplus in trade with the EU. Now, I agree with him that Brexit would indeed be a catastrophe for Welsh exports, but what about the catastrophe that has happened under this Government’s own watch? Will he establish an urgent inquiry into the causes of the Welsh export collapse and will he also look, Llywydd, at the leakages to the Welsh economy as a result of imports? Can the Secretary confirm that German and Spanish specialist steel is being used in the eastern distributor road project, funded by his department—a road only yards away from this building, ironically on which a Welsh steelworks is actually located? If his answer is that these specialist products cannot be currently produced by Welsh companies, does that not demonstrate the need for a team of specialists, working with businesses in Wales, to identify opportunities in the procurement pipeline, like the team that we did have until his Government replaced them in January this year with a couple of part-time staff, a few seminars and a phone number.

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Well, well, well, we shouldn’t be surprised that the Member wishes to talk down the Welsh economy, but the very fact of the matter is that when we ignore the selective figures that he chooses to adopt and when we look at what’s happened since 1999, which is a fair indicator to begin with, there has been an 89 per cent increase in Welsh exports, compared to an increase of just 69 per cent for the whole of the UK. You talk about Brexit, but what would leaving Great Britain do to the Welsh economy? What sort of damage would that inflict on this country, on millions of people who require the British economy for work and for prosperity?

Presiding Officer, the facts speak for themselves: Welsh exports in the first quarter of 2016 were higher in value than in the previous quarter, up 2.9 per cent compared to a fall of 2.7 per cent in the UK. That is a key statistic that the Member chooses to ignore. In addition, what we know from the eastern bay link road is that, whilst there are pieces of scaffolding that have been sourced from Germany, which will be temporary, 89 per cent of the steel for reinforcing bars, which will remain in situ, are from Wales. That is something that we should be proud of; that is something that we should promote. I’m doing it. I wish the Member would too.

Adam Price (Plaid Cymru, Carmarthen East and Dinefwr)

Well, I think the question on most of our minds is: what would changing the Welsh Government do for the Welsh economy? They can hardly do any worse than the current administration. [Interruption.] Look, in the interests—[Interruption.]

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Allow the Member to be heard and to come quickly to his question. Diolch, Adam.

Adam Price (Plaid Cymru, Carmarthen East and Dinefwr)

In the interests of being charitable, I think it would be wrong to expect the new Cabinet Secretary to have all the answers at his first outing at ministerial questions. Indeed, that’s true of most Governments. That’s why most Governments in the world have an executive agency to help them deliver their economic strategy. Now, I realise it would be difficult for this Government to bring back the Welsh Development Agency, as that would be an admission that they’d made a mistake, which is something they patently are unwilling to do. But can the Cabinet Secretary confirm that the Government, following an earlier feasibility study, has now commissioned a detailed business plan for a national innovation body for Wales—another Plaid Cymru policy being delivered by a Labour Government? Can he also confirm that the scope of this study includes examining the case for widening the remit of this arm’s-length body to include a wider economic development role? Some of us might be tempted to call that a WDA for the twenty-first century.

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Plaid Cymru wanting to go back to the 1980s to create the WDA and go back to quango heaven: no, we prefer accountability to sit with the Welsh Government. When it comes to exports, one other factor that’s worth bearing in mind is that we saw some categories soar in recent times—we saw machinery specialised for particular industries exports up 30 per cent, we saw road vehicles up 21 per cent, we saw increases in exports to Qatar, up 46 per cent. It’s why the—[Interruption.] They may understand it. It’s why people—[Interruption.] Let’s hope they understand this: commodity prices have fallen. Petroleum products’ value also has caused not just exports in the UK, but exports elsewhere, to fall in value. That is a fact of the matter. That is a reality around the globe. Setting up another quango will not solve the problem of commodity prices or petroleum prices.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The Welsh Conservatives’ spokesperson, Russell George.

Russell George (Conservative, Montgomeryshire)

Can I also congratulate the Cabinet Secretary on his appointment and say that I look forward to working with him constructively, where appropriate? Cabinet Secretary, the Welsh Government’s directory of Welsh motor sports companies states that Wales has a well-established automotive sector, generating a turnover of over £3 billion annually. Indeed, one of the success stories of the tourism industry has been our support for the forest-stage rallying in Wales, worth approximately £15 million a year to the Welsh economy. Motor sports, of course, are therefore of vital economic importance, and I wonder if you could outline what the Welsh Government is doing to promote and safeguard the motor sports industry in Wales.

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Can I thank the Member for his question, and also congratulate him on his appointment? I look forward to working with him in the years to come to ensure that we have a stronger, more secure economy in Wales. The automotive sector is a crucially important sector across Wales. In particular, for tourism, it contributes enormously to the success of our major events portfolio, which, in turn, attracts 800,000 people to Wales each year and generates something in the region of £125 million in terms of economic impact.

Russell George (Conservative, Montgomeryshire)

Well, thank you, Cabinet Secretary, for your response and I’m pleased to hear that you are aware of that information as well. The long-term future of the forest-stage rallying in Wales is under some serious threat as a consequence of Natural Resources Wales’s proposal to almost double the charges to the industry for the use of and maintenance of roads. Now, it appears that, in England and Scotland, agreement has already been made, with a modest increase in charges of just 0.7 per cent. Now, would you agree with me that there are, of course, wider economic benefits to motor sports events, and that the future of the industry in Wales should not be put in jeopardy? I wonder whether you would agree to—along with the Cabinet Secretary for the environment—intervene personally in negotiations on the contract between NRW and the Motor Sports Association, which, of course, would allow the industry to continue to flourish in Wales, rather than cease?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

I’d like to thank the Member for his supplementary question and say that this is part of a negotiation that’s taking place—in terms of the commercial negotiations taking place—in such a way that I can’t comment on the details. However, I have now met with my colleague, Lesley Griffiths, to discuss this, and, as a consequence of that, I’m pleased to say that Natural Resources Wales and the Motor Sports Association are continuing to negotiate charges to enable rallying to continue on Welsh forestry estates, and I’m confident now, as a result of the discussions that we’ve had, that a mutually acceptable compromise can be reached. There’s no doubt that rallying in the Welsh forests is iconic, and Wales Rally GB in particular is part of our international profile. We want it to succeed and to continue.

Russell George (Conservative, Montgomeryshire)

Can I thank the Cabinet Secretary? I think that’s an encouraging response, so perhaps it would be timely if we could have a statement over the coming weeks, as negotiations come to a conclusion in a positive way as the Cabinet Secretary suggests and, perhaps at some point, he’d be willing to visit one of the stages in mid Wales with me as well—perhaps we could have a race with each other; I don’t know.

Staying on the theme of tourism, Cabinet Secretary, I understand that the Brecon Beacons National Park Authority has recently reviewed the options for how services are delivered at the national park’s visitor centre. Now, among the changes, it’s recommended the closure of the information and retail element of the centre, which replaces it with an unstaffed information point. I’d ask you, Minister, to make representations to the national park authority to urgently reconsider this decision, as I certainly believe this would have an adverse effect on tourism, not only in the area, but in the wider mid Wales economy.

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Yes, I’ll commit to doing that. Actually, the national park authority is on my steering committee for the Year of Adventure, so I’ll be able to raise it with people in person as well, and I would also commit to providing a statement on Wales Rally GB and the future of the automotive sport in Wales.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

UKIP spokesperson, Neil Hamilton.

Neil Hamilton (UKIP, Mid and West Wales)

Thank you, Presiding Officer. I’ve already had the opportunity to congratulate the Cabinet Secretary on his appointment, but you can’t have too much of a good thing, so I’ll congratulate him again today and express the hope that, under his guidance, the Welsh economy will really get its skates on—boom, boom. [Laughter.] According to the opinion polls, it looks very much as though Britain is going to vote to leave the EU next week, and I wonder, therefore, if the Cabinet Secretary has given any thought to how he will spend the Brexit dividend that will come to Wales in that event. Because, just taking the one measure alone of Britain’s net contribution to the EU—that’s the money we give to Brussels to be spent elsewhere in the EU of £10 billion a year on a per capita basis calculation—that’s about £500 million a year that will come to Wales and the Welsh Government to be spent. It would be interesting to know if he’s got any ideas as to how we can spend even a part of that money.

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Can I thank the Member for his kind comments about my appointment and wish him well in his role, as well, in the Assembly? There can be no guarantee that that money would come to Wales. I rather fear that it will be squirrelled away to places like Wiltshire rather than come here to Wales. I think it’d probably end up in the Cotswolds rather than Cymru. There is no guarantee that Wales would benefit from EU money that is repatriated back to the UK. Do we really want to jeopardise, right now, next week, the progress that we’ve made on steel, what is an incredibly sensitive position? We would throw that crisis even deeper into the unknown were we to vote to leave the EU. We would throw 18,000 jobs, certainly at risk, if we were to vote to leave the EU. We would put at risk 52,000 apprenticeships that people are going to be seeking to fill in the next five years if we voted to leave the EU. We would also put at risk ReAct, which has provided opportunities. It’s provided hope for 19,000 people who have faced redundancy. That’s why Europe exists: to provide hope for people who need it. Do we really want to vote out of Europe and compromise that sort of opportunity for millions of people in Britain?

Neil Hamilton (UKIP, Mid and West Wales)

Well, I think it’ll come as a surprise to the people of Greece, Spain, Italy, Portugal and France that Europe represents hope, and I certainly take issue with the Cabinet Secretary on his rosy-tinted view. Of course, there can be no guarantees about the future; there’s no guarantee that any of us will be alive this time next week. But, nevertheless, it’s reasonable to assume that Wales will get a pretty high proportion of what it is due on a per capita basis if we leave the EU, and if we add in the £5 billion on top of the £10 billion that’s spent elsewhere in the EU—that the EU spends in Britain for their priorities, not our priorities—this offers the Welsh Government a massive opportunity to spend on things that matter to the people of Wales, rather than to the bureaucrats of Brussels.

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

The Member claims that Europe has not offered hope—what Europe has offered is the longest period of sustained peace in the history of the continent. It has offered hope and it has delivered peace and prosperity right across the continent. Voting out of Europe next week would certainly cause compromise for the steel industry in Wales and the UK. The Member may not wish to believe me, but he should believe Tata themselves when they say, and I quote directly:

‘The EU is by far our largest export market, with over a third of our UK steel heading there, and that’s not including the steel that goes via our customers, so access to that market is fundamental to our business’.

If the UK were to exit the EU and we set rules ourselves, it is likely we would still need to adhere to EU rules to enter that market. The difference: we would no longer have a say in how they are set up or applied. The EU is a source of cash for the UK business sector, funds for environmental improvements, infrastructure development and research and development. Would the Member today wish to tell steelworkers he would wish to compromise their jobs and their future to vote out of Europe next week?

Neil Hamilton (UKIP, Mid and West Wales)

Well, leaving the EU would, of course, not compromise steel jobs at all. We would have the freedom to do what the United States has done and slap a 522 per cent duty on cold-rolled steel as opposed to the 24 per cent duty that the EU has proposed. But I wonder can the Cabinet Secretary explain to me why the EU would want to put up any trade barriers against the UK when the figures announced only a couple of days ago show that we had in the first quarter of this year alone a deficit of £24 billion in our trade in goods. They have much more to lose than we have from a trade war.

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Let’s reflect on where we are right now. There is without a doubt, in my view, a new momentum in the Welsh economy. Tourism figures I’ve already mentioned—they’re up, employment is up, FDI up, exports up, business start-ups up, airport passenger numbers up. Apprenticeship completion rates—they’ve risen, too. The only thing that we could guarantee if we left Europe next week is that all of these stats would go down. I would urge the people of Wales and the people of Britain to vote to remain.

Siân Gwenllian (Plaid Cymru, Arfon)

3. Will the Minister make a statement on improvements to the road network in Arfon? OAQ(5)0004(EI)[W]

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Our transport priorities are set out in the national transport finance plan, which includes a number of road improvements for north Wales.

Siân Gwenllian (Plaid Cymru, Arfon)

Thank you very much. I’d like to draw your attention to a scheme to build a 9 km bypass in my area, in Arfon, in the Caernarfon and Bontnewydd area, a scheme that was secured by my predecessor, Alun Ffred Jones, in the last Assembly, which will be a significant boost to our area. I would like to hear from you whether you are aware of the significant delay in this scheme. There has been no announcement on it. The orders were supposed to have been published at the beginning of this year, and they haven’t been, and it’s likely that this scheme will not proceed for at least another 12 months. Are you aware that the problem that has arisen here is disagreement between Natural Resources Wales on the one side and the scheme’s engineers on the other? I understand that the problem is a dispute as regards what to do about the bats. Are you disappointed, as I am, that this delay is occurring, and can you assure me that you and your Government will do everything possible to resolve this dispute or this disagreement so that we can see this scheme proceeding as soon as possible, please?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Can I thank the Member for her question and say that the original intention was indeed to publish draft orders during the springtime of this year, but because of ongoing discussions, which the Member has mentioned, with Natural Resources Wales to address environmental mitigation measures, the publication date is now planned for August, subject to my approval? But I can guarantee that I will keep the Member updated on developments and move as fast as possible.

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

In fact, it’s three years since the Minister for Economy, Science and Transport in the previous Government announced her revised preferred route, whilst still investigating a business impact assessment, despite concerns raised by local businesses and employers that that revised preferred route and its predecessor would damage local business and jobs, and there was an alternative route that would do neither. Last July, notices were given out by the Welsh Government to landowners on the Welsh Government’s preferred route that environment surveys were to be carried out, and, last September, your predecessor, in a statement to this Assembly, said the A487 Caernarfon and Bontnewydd bypass is well advanced. In addition to considering the environmental impact, in partnership with Natural Resources Wales, as you indicate, will you again assure local businesses on the Welsh Government’s preferred route that you will engage with them at last and listen to their genuine, evidence-based concerns at last and factor that into your final decision?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

I’ll thank the Member for his question and stress that we have been engaging with local communities throughout this process, and with landowners during the design and development, to understand the likely impact of the scheme on properties and businesses in the area and we are keen to continue this engagement moving forward.

Julie Morgan (Labour, Cardiff North)

4. What steps is the Welsh Government taking to make online businesses aware of the alternative dispute resolution regulations which came into force this year? OAQ(5)0017(EI)

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

We have made business representative organisations aware of the alternative dispute resolution regulations, both during the UK Government’s consultation process and since its implementation.

Julie Morgan (Labour, Cardiff North)

I thank the Minister for his response. More and more businesses are selling online, from very small things—groceries—to cars. This is happening, obviously, in the UK and across the EU. Would the Minister agree that the new online dispute regulations are an opportunity for increased consumer and trader confidence and for Welsh businesses to show that they offer an excellent customer service? The new regulations will ensure there is an independent and fair arbitrator and will stop the very costly process of going to court.

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Yes. I’d like to thank the Member for her question on a very important issue. Alternative dispute resolution can indeed speed up settlement, which means less cost, less time and less stress than would be involved in taking matters to court. It’s a useful additional avenue open to consumers when appropriate. It’s important that consumers can have confidence in their transactions. Greater consumer confidence benefits all businesses and with increasing amounts of business being done online, the online dispute resolution is particularly important for businesses trading online.

Andrew RT Davies (Conservative, South Wales Central)

Minister, I appreciate that employment law and issues around employment are reserved matters, but the business advice that the Welsh Government supports, especially to new businesses and in particular to start-up businesses, is a vital component of being able to alert employers and employees within those businesses to what could avert some serious situations that end up costing those new businesses serious sums of money in legal advice and arbitration processes. What surety have you got that the advice that you are giving to new businesses does take into account some of the employment issues that they do need to take account of? Because that’s as important as the marketing and the strategy and anything else around the businesses setup, which is obviously ongoing and is focused in the minds of the directors of those companies.

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

I’d be happy to review the efficacy of the support and advice that we provide and to write to the Member with the outcome of that review.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

5. Will the Minister make a statement on the opportunities being offered through the Enterprise Zone in Port Talbot? OAQ(5)0016(EI)

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Yes. The Port Talbot waterfront enterprise zone will help us exploit new economic opportunities and support existing businesses. We have already launched a business rates scheme, which, combined with our wider support, provides an enhanced incentive for new investment and growth.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

I thank the Cabinet Secretary for that answer. In Port Talbot, the impact of Tata’s decision to sell the steelworks and also reduce the work contracted out to local businesses is actually creating huge challenges for local companies who are now facing difficult times to simply remain in business—such as Fairwood Fabrications, who we saw on the television programme with Michael Sheen, who have already reduced their staff by half and are looking at very challenging times just to stay in existence. As they seek to diversify and win new contracts elsewhere, they need support to ensure the future of their employees. Now, the enterprise zone status could attract those opportunities to them, but that’s not going to happen overnight. What support can the Welsh Government give these companies to overcome the challenges they face now, so they can be in a position to benefit from the enterprise zone when it becomes active?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

The health of the supply chain is enormously important to the region. Working in conjunction with the supply chain sub-group of the taskforce, 55 businesses linked to the Tata supply chain have requested additional support; 44 businesses have been visited and a bespoke diagnosis of the need of each has been undertaken. We’ve made available, as the Member is aware, business rates support, which is worth up to £55,000 a year to each qualifying SME within the Port Talbot enterprise zone. The closing date, the Member would wish to know, for receiving all applications is 30 September. At the beginning of June, a direct mail exercise was undertaken to promote the scheme to more than 223 businesses located within the enterprise zone that may be able to benefit from support for the scheme. I should also make the Member aware that since the inception of the Port Talbot Waterfront enterprise zone, seven inquiries have been received, either directly from external businesses or via local authority officers and our sectors, seeking information about support for growth or new locations. These are at early stages of engagement; however, two of these inquiries could include potentially significant inward investments.

Bethan Sayed (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

In the last Assembly, I raised the point with the Minister on the land opposite Harbour Way, which I’m sure will be part of the new enterprise zone. There is land there that could be utilised for new businesses. Have you spoken to local businesses to encourage them to actually apply for that land at a reduced cost under these new circumstances of an enterprise zone in Port Talbot, to facilitate the development of that particular area?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

I know that my officials are in constant dialogue with local businesses, but I will check on that specific case. We’ve established the enterprise zone at Port Talbot based around the existing and potential employment sites in the area, which have significant capacity for supporting further business investment. The Member is possibly aware that these are Baglan energy park, Baglan industrial estate and Harbourside in Port Talbot docks. But I assure the Member that I will take up the point that she raises and contact her once I’ve made inquiries.

Suzy Davies (Conservative, South Wales West)

May I offer my congratulations as well, Cabinet Secretary? The behemoth that is the Welsh Government website invites businesses in the enterprise zone to apply for financial help towards the cost of business rates, or offsetting against business rates, for 2016-17. That scheme has actually been open since 4 April, which is a little bit sooner than some of the others that have been mentioned today. I heard your answer to David Rees, but how many businesses have applied specifically for business rate relief, if I can call it that? Of the 200 or so businesses that you’ve approached, 44 seem to have been followed up on that. What have you done to follow up with those who haven’t responded to the direct mail approach, and will you be planning to do that any time soon, if you haven’t done it yet?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

I can follow up the question with an analysis of what those 44 businesses that have taken up our offer of help actually wish to be helped with; it may well be that it is business rates or it might be another form of support that we can offer. I’ll provide the Member with as much information that I’m reasonably able to so that we are all better informed about what it is that businesses in the area require.

In terms of the 11 businesses linked to the Tata supply chain that have not requested additional help, there are a number of reasons for that, but again I’ll try my best to provide information on why it is that they may have chosen not to take up our offer of additional support.

Hefin David (Labour, Caerphilly)

6. Will the Minister make a statement on support for small businesses in Caerphilly? OAQ(5)0019(EI)

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Wide-ranging support is available through our Business Wales service for small businesses in the Caerphilly area and across Wales. Our absolute focus remains on supporting enterprise, jobs and the economy.

Hefin David (Labour, Caerphilly)

Thank you for that answer. For businesses to remain long term and sustainable, they need to build positive connections with each other. Welsh ICE, in my constituency, is a peer-to-peer innovation centre for enterprise, where a load of businesses are there to support each other. Indeed, today, the captain of innovation, the leader of Welsh ICE, had an article in the Western Mail entitled ‘Everyone’s talent needed to secure future of Wales’; that’s Gareth Jones. Welsh ICE makes a net gross value added contribution to the economy of £13.8 million. Will the Cabinet Secretary congratulate Welsh ICE for the success that they’ve had, but also think about how can we foster these business connections, both in Caerphilly and, of course, further afield in the wider area, to develop social capital?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Can I thank the Member for his question, and also agree that Gareth Jones is indeed a great captain of Welsh ICE? He is also a native of Clwyd South constituency. Networking and shared space forms a key pillar of the approach being developed under the regional entrepreneurship acceleration programme, chaired by Simon Gibson. As part of the evidence being considered, a 12-week pre-start business accelerator programme is being delivered through the Business Wales accelerated growth programme, in partnership with Welsh ICE. I would like to congratulate the work of Welsh ICE, and especially their remarkable success to date, and I look forward to delivering on the Welsh Labour manifesto pledge to create similar hubs right across Wales to drive innovation, creativity and enterprise.

Steffan Lewis (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

The Welsh Government has pledged that they will provide 100,000 additional apprenticeships over the ensuing years. What specific steps will you take in order to ensure that small businesses can benefit from the opportunities provided by this pledge?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Can I thank the Member for his question? It’s crucially important for the Welsh economy that we create 100,000 quality apprenticeships. Each apprenticeship is estimated to be worth something in the region of, on average, £130,000 during the course of a career, so it has considerable economic benefits for the economy of Wales.

The Minister for Skills and Science will be responsible for ensuring that 100,000 apprenticeships are created and filled. We’ve got a very proud record in Wales in terms of completion rates, way higher than in England, currently standing at something in the region of 85 per cent here in Wales compared to the low to mid 70 per cent figure in England. So, I’ll be working with the Minister for Skills and Science to ensure that businesses of every size, everywhere in Wales, are aware of the opportunities that the apprenticeship system in Wales offers.

Mohammad Asghar (Conservative, South Wales East)

My best wishes to the Minister for climbing the economic mountain of Wales. A recent poll by the Federation of Small Businesses in Wales asked members about the key priorities they wanted to see from the Welsh Government. Twenty per cent of respondents wanted to see the creation of a single body to support small businesses in Wales. What consideration has the Welsh Government given to setting up a single body that companies can go to to receive information to co-ordinate support for small businesses in Caerphilly and the rest of Wales?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Can I thank the Member for his kind comments and his question? Well, of course, the £61 million Business Wales service continues to offer that one port of call for small businesses. The latest phase of Business Wales was launched in January with the aim of creating 10,000 new businesses and 28,300 new jobs and providing support to help inspire the next generation of young entrepreneurs and to help existing SMEs grow. That is something that Business Wales has thus far been incredibly successful at achieving—as shown by our employment figures, our unemployment figures and our new business start-up figures. So, we have a measure, so far, of success in this regard, but I’m keen to make sure that Business Wales continues to deliver for businesses and the people of our country.

Mohammad Asghar (Conservative, South Wales East)

7. Cabinet Secretary, what measures will the Welsh Government introduce to support businesses in Wales in the fifth Assembly? OAQ(5)0001(EI)

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

We are a pro-business Government and one of my first priorities will be talking to businesses large and small, as well as key partners, about their views on developing the right approach to grow prosperity and deliver greater financial security for businesses and individuals, right across Wales.

Mohammad Asghar (Conservative, South Wales East)

Thank you for the reply, Secretary. Business rates can be a company’s biggest expense after wages and rent. The Welsh Retail Consortium has warned that Welsh retailers could see the steepest rise in business rates in the United Kingdom from the next year, once the revaluation of properties takes effect. Does the Minister agree the time has come for a radical review of business rates, to make the system fair, effective and efficient and better linked to a company’s ability to pay in Wales?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

I thank the Member for his question regarding business rates. Of course, the reason that we made one of our top pledges a reduction in tax on business was because of the value that small businesses have to the economy right across the country. Chris Sutton carries out important work in this regard and I take his advice very seriously and I scrutinise what he has to offer very carefully and, of course, if he returns with more advice in this regard I will consider it appropriately.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

And finally, question 8—Rhun ap Iorwerth.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Ynys Môn)

8. Will the Minister provide an update on the Menai crossing development? OAQ(5)0006(EI)[W]

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

We are currently developing a business case for a third crossing over the Menai strait and I have asked my officials to bring forward proposals for a preferred-route study.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Ynys Môn)

The Minister will know that I have been consistently pressing for investment in a third crossing, or dualling the Britannia, however you want to see it. I was very grateful to see the Government agreeing to proceed with the business study recently, and I’m sure that the plans will be brought forward in due course.

Today, National Grid have announced their latest proposals on transferring energy across the Isle of Anglesey and the Menai straits. In terms of crossing Anglesey, the grid is entirely unyielding in terms of its determination to keep those cables above ground. They want to go under the Menai, and I would expect them to do that—of course, they have very little option. But isn’t there an opportunity here in having some collaboration between different departments, if you like, namely by taking the cables across a new Menai crossing and getting the grid to contribute to the cost therein? I know that there is a problem here in terms of timing, but will the Minister give a commitment to do everything within his power to overcome those problems, because there is a very real opportunity to kill two birds with one stone here?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Absolutely. The Member is astute and correct in his observations and his recommendations. I met with my officials today to discuss this very issue. We welcome the project update today, published by National Grid. It’s provided more detail on the undergrounding options for crossing the Menai straits, and officials continue to engage with the National Grid to ensure that any solution is fit for purpose, not only to deliver a connection but to protect and be mindful of the environment in which it is to be deployed. So, the grid dimension will be considered as part of the business case.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

I thank the Cabinet Secretary.

2. 2. Questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Health, Well-being and Sport

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

We now move to questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Health, Well-being and Sport. The first question is from Dawn Bowden.

Dawn Bowden (Labour, Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney)

Thank you, Presiding Officer. Will the First Minister please make a statement on the role the Welsh Government sees for sport—

Joyce Watson (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

The First Minister?

Dawn Bowden (Labour, Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney)

Oh, sorry. [Laughter.] The Minister. [Interruption.] Yes, well, one day, Becs, one day. [Laughter.] Sorry, I’ll start again.

Dawn Bowden (Labour, Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney)

1. Will the Minister make a statement on the role the Welsh Government sees for sport in helping to improve the health and well-being of the people of Wales? OAQ(5)0015(HWS)

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

The Welsh Government remains committed to increasing rates of participation in physical activity through sport. Sport Wales are our key delivery agent and are working with a range of partners and stakeholders to drive forward our agenda of making Wales a more active and healthy nation.

Dawn Bowden (Labour, Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney)

Thank you, Minister. Merthyr council has secured funding of almost £12.9 million under the Welsh Government’s Vibrant and Viable Places programme to support regeneration projects in Merthyr Tydfil. Will the Minister then join me in commending the initiative of both Merthyr Town Football Club and Merthyr council in utilising a grant from this funding arrangement to support the development of a modern facility at Penydarren Park, providing a sustainable community sports initiative, which is encouraging greater public engagement with the club as well as, of course, securing additional local economic benefits arising out of the building contract that came with that?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

I thank you for that question. I certainly join you in commending Merthyr Town FC and Merthyr council for working in partnership to ensure a sustainable future for community sports in the area, and I’m more than delighted that Welsh Government was able to play its part by providing over £2 million for the funding for Penydarren Park through our Vibrant and Viable Places programme. That really demonstrates our commitment to providing a new flexible facility for recreation but also education and training as well in the area. I’ll just add how impressed I am that Merthyr Town FC was voted the best grass-roots club in Europe by UEFA last year. I think that’s a tremendous achievement.

Andrew RT Davies (Conservative, South Wales Central)

Sport plays a really valuable role, Minister, in improving public health, but one sector of our society doesn’t seem to participate the same as the other part, which is men versus women—. On a national survey, 100,000 fewer women play sport than men. There’s been an active campaign across the UK entitled This Girl Can to raise participation levels in sport by actually moving beyond some of the stereotypical models of people who play sport and actually showing that sport is for all. Has the Welsh Government taken a view on this particular campaign and, indeed, has the Welsh Government participated in formulating any actions around the campaign so that we can reach into all communities and show that sport isn’t for a set type of individual—it is for everyone?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

Absolutely. I do thank you for that question. I’m pleased that we already have over 3,500 girl football players registered under the age of 18 and also nearly 1,500 adult women. I think that perhaps the current games will inspire more to consider getting involved with that. But you’re absolutely right that sport plays an important role in public health, which is why the Welsh Government have moved sport and public health into the same portfolio. I’m very keen to find out more about the This Girl Can programme; perhaps we can have a meeting to discuss that further, because I’m very keen to see what we can do to encourage girls and women to take more interest in sport and physical activity and recreation as well.

I’m aware that we’re doing some great work through Street Games, which encourages girls in particular to get involved with street dance and other forms of activity that are beyond the traditional netball and hockey, which is not appealing to everybody, I know.

John Griffiths (Labour, Newport East)

In Newport East, we’ve been meeting locally—myself, the local health board, the leisure trust, Newport City Council, Natural Resources Wales, the local sports bodies and a host of others—to work out how we can get the local population more physically active. So, I wonder if you would agree with me, Minister, that Welsh Government should support those efforts, because if we are going to become more proactive and forge ahead on the preventative health front, we need to pull partners together to deliver meaningful action locally, right across Wales.

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

You’re absolutely right in identifying there that the answer does lie in partnership working and this is why Welsh Government has, with Sport Wales and Public Health Wales, put in place a director of physical activity for Wales, and that director is currently putting together an action plan for action. We look forward to receiving that towards the end of this term. I’ll spend this summer considering that and talking to stakeholders about it, with a view to publishing it later on in the autumn, setting out the actions for the next steps.

Mohammad Asghar (Conservative, South Wales East)

2. What action will the Welsh Government take to improve services for diabetes sufferers in Wales in the fifth Assembly? OAQ(5)0002(HWS)

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Thank you for the question in Diabetes Week. We invest nearly £100 million each year in specific diabetes care and we will continue to invest £1 million a year for improvement through the NHS-led diabetes implementation group. We expect to see improved patient outcomes by consistently meeting national service standards, supporting patient self-management through education programmes and helping to prevent people at high risk from developing diabetes.

Mohammad Asghar (Conservative, South Wales East)

Thank you for the answer, business Secretary. Figures revealed by Diabetes UK Cymru reveal that the number of people living with diabetes in Wales is at its highest ever level. Their director has highlighted the lack of understanding when it comes to people being aware of the seriousness of diabetes. Given that Wales has the worst rate of child obesity, does the Minister agree that we need to prevent children becoming overweight to reduce figure levels of diabetes? What plans does he have to work with schools and parents to improve the information necessary to achieve this goal in Wales?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

I thank the Member for his follow-up question. Of course, we have two types of diabetes: type 1, which is not related to lifestyle factors at all, and type 2, which is, frankly, lifestyle-factor related. So, we need to deal with both of those issues. A number of children at varying ages understand that they will have type 1 diabetes and we do need to make sure that the care and support that they receive is appropriate, and also, for type 2 diabetes, we’re much more into the field of prevention. So, let me just address both of those points. On type 2, it goes across a range of public health measures; it’s not just a health and social services or even sport responsibility—there’s a whole range of other people with an issue here, for example the work that we do on healthy schools and the way that schools engage. In every school I visit in my own constituency and around the country, you see a very clear healthy eating and healthy drinking message and in particular an awareness of sugar. So, a range of things that we do to encourage people to make different choices are important. We do have to work with parents as well, because we do know that whatever children have in school, a much bigger influence takes place outside of the school gates too.

Just to reiterate the serious consequence of diabetes, yesterday Cardiff and Vale University Local Health Board highlighted a woman in her 50s who’d lost her sight in one eye; she had type 1 diabetes. She didn’t manage her condition well in her 20s and 30s and had now lost sight in her eye. She’s encouraging people to take advantage of the patient education programmes that are available. There’s a broad range of people at risk, a broad range of messages and actions that we all need to take. It’s a complex issue, but one we cannot avoid.

Jenny Rathbone (Labour, Cardiff Central)

Yesterday, Cabinet Secretary, you and I heard from people who have diabetes about the improvements that have taken place in services across Wales. That is to be commended and to be celebrated—the work that was done by your predecessor, Mark Drakeford, in implementing the diabetes plans. As a result, we are now the envy of diabetes champions in England, because of the fact that each health board now has a diabetes lead, which I’m sure is one of the reasons why we’ve had so much improvement in the way that we look after people with diabetes. But you’ll also recall that we heard from the mother of a child who died of undiagnosed type 1 diabetes, and I wondered if you could say something about how we can work with other services to ensure that everybody is aware of the potential risk factors and the signs that somebody may or may not have type 1 diabetes.

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Thank you for the question. I was very pleased to join you in the event yesterday to highlight Diabetes Week and the work they’re undertaking here in Wales to improve the position. The point about undiagnosed diabetes applies both to type 1 and type 2 and the risk factors that are there. It’s a particularly difficult case, and I’ll be happy to meet again with you and the cross-party group. I understand the mother is coming to the next cross-party group to explain her own experiences. There’s a message here about awareness between health and education, about factors that could have been picked up at an earlier stage. I’m really pleased to see that the mother is keen to ensure that other people learn the lesson and understand and recognise more of the signs; there is a positive message there. But I’m really pleased to hear you recognise the improvements we’ve made in patient care here in Wales. In particular, Diabetes UK were very clear about the fact that there’s real momentum here in Wales in improving care, which they want to see in other parts of the UK. So, some good news for us here in Wales, but, equally, a recognition that there is still much more to do.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

We now move to the questions from party spokespeople to the Cabinet Secretary, and, first this week, the Welsh Conservative spokesperson, Angela Burns.

Angela Burns (Conservative, Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire)

Diolch, Lywydd. Cabinet Secretary, you’ll be aware that the incidence of cancer is rising, with one in two people born after 1960 expected to be diagnosed with cancer in their lifetime. So, I’m sure you will agree with me that early screening is vital. You will, no doubt, be aware that this week is Cervical Screening Awareness Week. Cervical cancer is the most common cancer in women under 35, but the good news shows that the mortality rate for this type of cancer is dropping and is lower than it was some years ago. That is why I share the concern of cancer charities, because screening rates across Wales for women of all ages in terms of cervical cancer is on the fall. Minister, can you tell me what your Government is going to do to encourage women in Wales to be screened for the potential of this disease?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Thank you for the question. It’s a fair point to raise about what we need to do, not so much about the health service responding to the significant rise in cancer referrals—in fact, in the last seven years, there’s been a doubling in urgent cancer referrals into the NHS, and it’s a remarkable achievement that it has managed to deal with those in such a timely manner, given the increase in volume—but there is a point about the understanding of healthcare messages by us as individual citizens and the risk factors that we have, and to take up the opportunity for screening that our programmes actually provide. So, there’s a need to understand where we are now, something that Public Health Wales will look at, and we always need to review and understand where we’re succeeding, what we need to do more of and, equally, where we’re not meeting our expectations. It is something that I’ve raised with them, not just on cervical screening but also on bowel cancer, for example, as well, in terms of what more we could do. Sometimes, it’s about the test and so it’s actually about persuading people to do more to safeguard their own healthcare, now and in the future.

Angela Burns (Conservative, Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire)

Thank you for that, although, Minister, I think you and I both know where we are on this. The rates are falling and we need to make people more responsible for their own health. My question was actually what can you do to encourage people to have this screening test. So, if we move to bowel cancer, which you’ve already alluded to, one of the ideas is that, here, for example, in Wales, bowel cancer screening is currently undertaken every two years for those between 60 and 74; Scotland undertake this screening from 50; and England is currently introducing a second bowel scope screening, which is proven to reduce the risks of individuals developing bowel cancer by 33 per cent, and Scotland also intend to trial this. So, again, Minister, on another type of cancer, I ask you: why should those who have the highest risk of bowel cancer have a lower chance of an early diagnosis here in Wales? You and I both know we all have to take responsibility for our health, but what can you as a Government do to improve the screening rates for both cervical cancer and bowel cancer?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Well, I think there’s a fairly high awareness of both cervical cancer screening and also bowel cancer screening. The challenge is how we make it easy for people to take that up. On bowel cancer, in particular, it’s not so much about the advice people get, because we will follow the advice we’re given about where is the most appropriate point for people to be screened, but it’s about the test. Because, frankly, the test currently is not a very pleasant test to have to do; I won’t describe it. But the reality is that there is the potential for a new test—it will be easier to administer and we are much more likely to see a much greater take-up therefore, and a much greater surveillance and, actually, earlier warning for people. So, there is something about how technology and movement can actually help people to undertake screening, to avail themselves of screening resources that are available. So, we need to take account of that progress that is made and then understand if the evidence says it will be a better job, we then need to make sure it’s rolled out in a consistent way across the country.

Angela Burns (Conservative, Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire)

I agree with you that all I’ve heard about the test is that it’s deeply unpleasant. However, test or having cancer, it’s a self-evident choice and I will do anything to support you to try and get this message out to people that they should be doing this. Because bowel, lung, prostate and breast cancers account for over 50 per cent of diagnoses in Wales. As you yourself said earlier, the annual number of cancer cases continues to rise. The target of 95 per cent for newly diagnosed cancer patients referred via the urgent route to begin treatment within 62 days of referral has not been met since 2008. So, how will you, Minister, seek to address these areas, when you draw up your new cancer delivery plan, which is scheduled for later this year? And, given that Welsh Government struggled to deliver on the previous plan, how can we have confidence that you will draw up and rigorously and successfully implement a new plan?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Well, thank you for the series of questions in there. I don’t share your optimistic assessment that if people understand there’s a test or the risk of cancer that people will undertake the test. I’m not even sure that a lot of people don’t make that choice. So, there are lots of risk factors for health outcomes that people ignore. There is often a very high awareness of health behaviours and their impacts. The challenge then is how we persuade people to change their own behaviours, and how we make it easy for them to do that, whether it’s smoking, drinking, exercise—a whole range of factors.

And, in particular in terms of the 62-day target, I recognise that we have not met our stretching target. It’s, of course, one of those things—we have a higher target than England; if we had the English target, we’d meet it on a regular basis. So, there is still something, not just about comparing ourselves with England, but about having some real ambitions for outcomes. Because one of the things we can take real comfort from, and optimism from, is not just the fact that more and more people are being diagnosed, being seen and treated, but also that cancer survival rates are improving.

But our challenge, and our ambition, in the refreshed cancer delivery plan must be to make sure that our services are in a sustainable position, so we tackle the backlogs that exist on waiting times for treatment, and where the best available treatments are available on a consistent basis. Actually, our ambition is to have cancer survival rates that compare with the best in Europe because, right across the UK, we don’t do well enough, and there’s got to be some honesty and some recognition that that’s where we are now, to see the benefit and the improvement that we’ve had, and to recognise that too, but, at the same time, to have some real ambition about the future and then have a practical way to map that forward. The delivery plan won’t just be something that is in the hands of Government. We will have a cross-sector partnership, involving the voluntary sector too, as well as the NHS, as well as Government, on taking the plan forward, and then, hopefully, making sure we see a successful implementation across the board.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

UKIP spokesperson, Caroline Jones.

Caroline Jones (UKIP, South Wales West)

Diolch, Lywydd. Cabinet Secretary, with one in eight people in Wales currently seeking help for a mental illness, what will the new Welsh Government be doing to improve waiting times for access to mental health care?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Thank you for the question. Mental health is a priority area for this Government. As I said yesterday, in response to a range of questions, we will be refreshing the mental health delivery plan. That will take place this year as well, so it’s not been forgotten. And, really importantly, in undertaking both the consultation and delivering the action plan, we’ll be talking with and listening to service users themselves. It’s been one of the strengths of what we’ve actually managed to do over the last few years, to understand the current impact of the service, and things that will make a difference for them. There are a range of things for us to do, and, actually, mental health is the biggest single area of spend within the national health service. So, it does receive very real priority.

We’ve changed our mental health waiting time standards to make them tougher and, in fact, we are in a better position than England. We have different waiting time standards—much more rigorous—and more people are seen within the target time. The challenge for us—and, following the earlier question—is to recognise the progress we’ve made, and, at the same time, to understand what more we need to do. There is something about recruitment and retention, both in the community service as well as in the secondary care service. So, our next challenge is to confront. But, again, working with the third sector, and service users themselves, I’m confident we will continue to see an improvement in mental health treatment and outcomes here in Wales.

Caroline Jones (UKIP, South Wales West)

Thank you for your answer, Cabinet Secretary, but part of the problem with waiting times for mental health care is around funding. Mental health is the poor relation in our NHS. Do you agree with me that mental health funding should be ring-fenced at a much higher level than the current spend?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Thank you for the question. I do wonder if you thought you were asking a question about the English system, because in Wales we have ring-fenced mental health funding, and as I said earlier, it is the biggest single area of spend within NHS Wales. I’ve seen campaigns that have taken place on an England and Wales basis, and, actually, they’re really talking about the English system. I remember responding to letters as a Deputy Minister and writing back to Members of Parliament saying, ‘You’re writing to me about England and we’re doing things differently here.’ The challenge is for England to catch up with Wales in this area, so I really do think we’ve got a good story to tell, and not just from the Government’s point of view, but so much of this flows from work done in the third Assembly when the Mental Health (Wales) Measure 2010 was passed. We took a view at that point in time that there needed to be greater priority given to this particular area of service and the impact that it has, and I’m really pleased that we’re delivering upon that. It’s not perfect, but we are making real progress, and the challenge is how we further improve what we’re already doing.

Caroline Jones (UKIP, South Wales West)

Finally, Cabinet Secretary, cuts to local authority spending are threatening community mental health services. What is your Government doing to incentivise councils in Wales to protect the mental health services they provide, and to make greater use of third sector mental health services?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

I don’t think local government provide direct mental health services, but they do provide services that have an impact on mental health and well-being. We all recognise that. For example, the conversation earlier about physical health and activity. Being physically active isn’t just a good thing for your physical health; it’s actually incredibly good for your mental health and well-being too. And there’s an honest challenge here as well for all of us in this Chamber. Whenever we talk about budgets—and you mentioned cuts to local government—the honest truth is that to maintain a high level of spend in the NHS and social care, which we have done—and I’m proud of the fact that we’ve done that—we’ve had to make a difficult choice. And to do that, to have 48 per cent of the Government spend in this particular department, means there’s been less money to spend on local government. That’s an honest choice that we made. If people want to come to me or anyone else and say, ‘We want to see more money in local government,’ you’ve got to find it from somewhere else, and that means compromises in other areas of service.

I actually have great sympathy for people in local government of all political shades and colours, who are running local authorities, for the really difficult choices they will make. That is the honest reflection of having a falling level of funding available for public services in Wales, and across the rest of the piece: really difficult choices to be made. It’s not just about making services more effective with less money, but the honest reality that people are now choosing what not to do. So, I don’t want to give a glib answer by saying that local authorities just need to up their game; we all need to do what we can do to improve services and outcomes; we all need to face the reality that there is less money to spend, and we are making a choice to fund the NHS, and that means less money for local government.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Rhun ap Iorwerth.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Ynys Môn)

Thank you, Llywydd. Two years ago, Plaid Cymru highlighted the frighteningly long waiting times for MRI scans in Wales as compared to Scotland and England, with over 40 per cent of patients at that time waiting over six weeks here, as compared to 1 per cent in England and 2 per cent in Scotland. Following on from that and some press coverage of the issue, you did make an effort to tackle the issue and those waiting times have now reduced: some 17.6 per cent of patients are now waiting over six weeks for a scan. Is that figure acceptable to you and what assurance can you give that the pattern of reducing the waiting times for MRI scans will continue?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

I thank the Member for the question and for highlighting an area where we’ve made real progress over the last calendar year. Because at the high point that we reached in summer last year, we had a real challenge in understanding what could and should take place to reduce the diagnostic waiting times. We’re now in a much better place and MRI is a good example: there are a number of health boards—at least two—where it’s practically at zero, so no people wait above the target time, but we do have a very real challenge in particular in the south-east of Wales, where far too many people still wait too long. So, I fully expect that it’s a message that the service understands perfectly well. The progress we made, in particular in the last six months of the last year, will continue into this year, and I’m looking forward to the figures in the first quarter, and in particular in the second quarter of this year, to understand whether that ambition within the service is being made real, because that is certainly what I expect to see.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Ynys Môn)

What the improvement does demonstrate, of course, is that effort pays off and that we should never accept that budgetary limitations or increases in demand will inevitably lead to longer waiting times. As I said, MRI scans were given some press coverage a few years ago; there are other diagnostic tests that aren’t as headline grabbing, perhaps, where there are major problems that remain, for example, colonoscopy or cystoscopy. Performance in those areas is as poor now as it was two years ago, with around half of patients waiting over six weeks, as compared to 6 per cent in England and 12 per cent in Scotland. The equipment is cheaper for these tests, there is less demand for them and some GP surgeries can actually do the tests themselves. Apart from waiting for newspaper headlines, what will make you give the same attention to colonoscopy and cystoscopy tests as you gave to MRIs?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

I thank the Member for his second question on the area. On this, there are two points that I would make: the first is that in some of the areas on diagnostics where we have waits, it is tied up in workforce. So, there are challenges for us, for example, in training more sonographers in Wales. Where they’re currently trained, you tend to see better outcomes. For example, Swansea and west Wales do better on this than the south-east of Wales and lots of the training is undertaken in Swansea. So, that shouldn’t be a surprise. There’s something about our workforce planning and understanding where and how we train more members of staff, as well as attracting people to come into the country.

The second point that I’d make is that, in terms of the attention given to it, it isn’t really about the headlines because, again, from my previous role and into this one, it is something that I regularly discussed with health board chairs and chief executives and there was certainly no lack of focus on the need to see improvement. That’s what we saw in the last half of the last year. I’m really, really clear with health boards and the public that I expect to see further improvement. There’s something about understanding how we improve our headline rates in the here and now and what we need to do to improve the system that lies underneath it—so, improving diagnostic treatment and where that should take place, because you make a fair point in that some of these could take place within primary care. That is what we have to do at the same time. They’re not necessarily easy things to do: to maintain headline performance at an acceptable level and to reform the system, which does mean making some difficult and, at time, imperfect choices, but it is absolutely what I expect the service to do.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Ynys Môn)

But there are innovative steps that could be taken. Last week, Cancer Research published a report on the next steps that they would want to see taken for a cancer strategy for Wales. They are asking for the introduction of a specific target of 28 days so that we can improve survival rates and, through that, they are adding to the chorus of authoritative voices supporting our policy, as Plaid Cymru, for the introduction of a 28-day diagnosis target.

Before the election, your Government rejected that target, although all the main oncologists in Britain, more or less, are calling for it. In order to achieve such a target, we would need improved waiting times for a number of tests, including better direct access to GP services, to the testing system and to expertise in testing. Will you, therefore, look again at Plaid Cymru’s policy of establishing three multidisciplinary diagnostic centres of the kind that have been very successful in other nations, including Denmark, as part of a strategy to reduce waiting times for these vital diagnostic tests?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Thank you for the third question. There’s been a clear recognition across parties and within the service for some time that to improve cancer outcomes, we need to improve access to diagnostic certainty, but what we’re not doing is actually implementing a different target on diagnostics within the cancer pathway. I’m not persuaded that that will actually help us to get where we want to in terms of focusing on the time it takes to get to first treatment, but also then for outcomes for cancer patients as well. That’s where our focus is going to be.

We’ve already been to—. Officials have already been to Copenhagen to look at the work that they do to understand how they have a different pathway and how that speeds up access to treatment and to outcomes, so there’s nothing new in that sense and it’s part of what we’ve been doing over the last year in any event. Our focus, though, will be on outcomes to understand what we need to do to improve outcomes for patients. Some of the really interesting work that I hope you will see when you see the refreshed cancer delivery plan is actually looking at a single pathway as well, which actually will require a different focus and a change in the way in which we look at and understand our targets. It should mean that we have a more focused and more appropriate look at what will make a difference on the cancer pathway that the clinicians will support and also that the patients will support, which is really delivering improved outcomes that all of us in this Chamber will want to see. Diagnostics are one part of improving that pathway.

Paul Davies (Conservative, Preseli Pembrokeshire)

4. Will the Minister outline the Welsh Government’s policies for the future of health services in Pembrokeshire? OAQ(5)0004(HWS)

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Thank you for the question. Our aim is to ensure that people in Pembrokeshire are provided with high-quality, compassionate health services. Our focus will be on improving patient outcomes and in doing so, we will be led by the most up-to-date clinical advice and evidence.

Paul Davies (Conservative, Preseli Pembrokeshire)

Of course, it’s absolutely essential that appropriate emergency health services are actually based in Pembrokeshire in the future. You will be aware, Cabinet Secretary, that I’ve been re-elected with a strong mandate in Preseli Pembrokeshire by standing on a platform to reintroduce full-time paediatric services and the special care baby unit at Withybush hospital. Given the clear public support in my constituency for re-establishing these services, are you now prepared to listen to the people of Pembrokeshire by considering re-establishing these particular services?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Thank you for the question. We rehearsed this argument before the election and I’m sure we will do more than once afterwards. I don’t see the Member’s re-election to his constituency as a referendum on this particular issue. There are real challenges in this area between a very clear demand for locality versus the quality of the service that is provided as well, and you’ll be aware that the Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health reviewed the changes to the services that had been made, in maternity and neonatal services, and they came back and confirmed that no person’s care had been compromised, no-one had suffered any clinical harm from the changes and, in fact, it had improved the service being provided to your constituents. Now, that’s the most up-to-date clinical advice and evidence. I just do not believe that any Minister of any party in this position would, on the basis of that evidence, decide to change the service, because to do so we be to fly in the face of that evidence and, I believe, would be agreeing to provide a worse service for the people of Pembrokeshire because of the public noise made about wanting services to be provided locally. We need to have a balance in understanding those services that need to be provided in specialist centres. We need a smaller number of those across the country to provide actually better outcomes for our people and, at the same time, to understand what services we really do need to provide locally and more of those services in a primary and community setting where possible. I appreciate I’m unlikely to persuade the Member to change his position in today’s exchange, but, as I said in my first response, I will be guided by the very best most up-to-date clinical evidence and advice, and where that tells me that changing a service back to the way it was is not the right thing to do for people in Pembrokeshire, I will not do it because I do not think that that is a responsible thing for me to do.

Joyce Watson (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

I want to congratulate the Cabinet Secretary on his appointment but I also want to pay some tribute to the previous Minister, who had a very tough job and has exercised some change. They are not veiled congratulations, I can assure you. However, moving swiftly on, I did last Friday visit Withybush hospital and I did speak with staff and patients about the new services and how they are bedding in. I’m pleased to report, having done that, that the picture is overwhelmingly positive. I did speak with a woman who had just had delivery of her sixth baby in that new unit and who had nothing but praise for the midwives, the staff and the facilities that she availed herself of. But there was an issue that did come up and that was the future of the 24/7 dedicated ambulance vehicle, or the DAV, that was introduced for emergency transfers between Withybush and Glangwili hospitals as part of the phased introduction of safety measures supported by the previous Minister. Hywel Dda Local Health Board has extended that contract with the Welsh ambulance service but it is due to end at the end of the financial year. Cabinet Secretary, while the service is being used less, maybe, than it was anticipated—but it is shared with other services—the staff did say that it is valued and needed. My question therefore is: would you commit to discussing with Hywel Dda health board the option for putting those vital services on a permanent footing? Also, Minister, I have spoken to you about visiting both Glangwili and Withybush hospitals, which you’ve agreed to, but I would like to have your agreement on record. Thank you.

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Thank you for the two questions. Yes, I’ll be happy to arrange a convenient time to visit both hospitals and to meet staff in the midwifery units. On your specific point about the dedicated ambulance vehicle, this was an important part of providing confidence about the service to make sure that there was emergency transfer, if needed, to take women and their babies to Glangwili. In many ways, I am pleased that it has been used less than anticipated because that underlines and underscores the fact that safe care is being provided in that midwife-led unit. Over 200 babies were born in that midwife-led unit in Withybush in the last calendar year: women and their babies safely delivered with high-quality care. That’s real praise for the midwives themselves. I also wanted to praise the paramedics, who are not sitting with their feet up and having a cup of tea when they are not being used to transfer people to Glangwili. They are actually undertaking work within the hospital in different teams, using their skills in a way that benefits the whole service. So, it is a really good example of the way integration can work in the planning of the service. I will definitely take up the issue and have a conversation with Hywel Dda health board and the Welsh ambulance trust to look at the future of that service on a more sustained footing.

Simon Thomas (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

We haven’t forgotten the election that we’ve just fought, and I do very clearly recall the Labour Party candidate in Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire speaking very clearly and pledging that, if he had been elected, he would come to this place and argue for the return of maternity services to Withybush hospital and argue in favour of the repatriation of paediatric services to Withybush hospital. So, was he seeking to mislead people in the constituency? What will the Minister do now to ensure that paediatric services particularly are safe and secure in Withybush in order to ensure that the emergency services are also safe and secure?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

I thank the Member for the question. In understanding what we do, I go back to saying that we have to be led by the evidence and the advice. To make this work, it’s perhaps instructive to look at what happened at Prince Philip—not at the distinct model there, but that Prince Philip Hospital stopped being an issue because clinicians within Prince Philip Hospital had a conversation about what was possible. They stopped talking down what they were doing. They stopped having a row in the pub and they said, ‘What can we do? What can we do safely? What do we want to do, and how do we get there?’ They had a conversation between themselves about leading care and about leading change within that hospital for a model, now, that there is not very much noise about. Broadly, people support what’s taken place there.

I’m really pleased that that engagement with the clinical community in Withybush is still taking place. For example, at the start of May, there was a workshop day involving a range of clinicians—both primary care as well as secondary care and the community health council—to look at where they are and where they want to be as well on a range of these services. They have got to have that constructive conversation because if they can’t agree amongst themselves what is appropriate and what is necessary for that particular part of the world and how they can go about providing it, we are unlikely to be able to support them or make choices that the people of Pembrokeshire would want to see. So, understanding what they want, having a constructive conversation and being prepared to lead that change—or to support difficult choices if those have to be made—is part of what I think we should expect, and I’m really pleased to see that is now happening on a more consistent basis within Withybush. It’s a good thing for clinicians and the public they serve.

Russell George (Conservative, Montgomeryshire)

5. Will the Minister make a statement on the Welsh Government’s intention to establish a cancer drugs fund? OAQ(5)0013(HWS)

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

I thank the Member for the question. We will not establish a Welsh cancer drugs fund. The English cancer drugs fund will be scrapped at the end of this month. We are prioritising the establishment of a new treatment fund as one of our key commitments in the first 100 days. I expect to be able to tell Members more about it. The fund will support the speedy introduction of innovative and effective high-cost treatments for life-threatening diseases.

Russell George (Conservative, Montgomeryshire)

Minister, our own proposals for a Welsh cancer treatment fund would not only have improved access to new, modern medicines, but would also have made cancer treatment more accessible for patients through the establishment of a mobile cancer treatment unit. In rural parts of Wales, such as my own constituency in Montgomeryshire, that would, of course, be an invaluable service. My question, Cabinet Secretary, is: what consideration have you given to the establishment of a mobile cancer treatment service?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Well, we, of course, already undertake a range of mobile cancer treatment services, and you will be very well aware of our ambition to undertake more care within the community—that shift from secondary to primary care. It’s an important part of what we wish to do. That would certainly be the case within cancer services as well. We have had well-established programmes, working with Macmillan Cancer Support, for example, on understanding primary care oncology services. We are working with our clinicians to improve what they do and to make sure that care is provided in the most appropriate setting. I will make no apology for not accepting or following Tory proposals for a Welsh cancer drugs fund. We do not believe that that is the right thing to do. It’s not just that: the Public Accounts Committee of the House of Commons said there was no evidence of improved outcomes from the English fund, and Sir Bruce Keogh, whom the Tories are often fond of quoting in this Chamber, has described the cancer drugs fund as not a smart and sustainable use of money. He recognised that more of the budget there is being spent on less effective medication. That is a poor model for us to follow, and I’m proud of what we are already doing and what we are committed to doing with the new treatment fund.

Lynne Neagle (Labour, Torfaen)

As you’ve indicated, health Secretary, the English cancer drugs fund has not worked and is being abolished this week. However, I’m delighted that this Government is committed to a new treatment fund, and I’m also really pleased that we are committed to a further review of the individual patient funding requests system. As you know, I am a long-standing advocate of the need to move to a national panel that would ensure consistency and fairness in decision making, and I also would like to see the end of the exceptionality test, which I do not believe has the support of many clinicians in Wales. What assurances can you offer that this review will be undertaken in a speedy manner, but also that you will ensure that the views of clinicians and patients are taken into account?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

I thank the Member for her question, and she is right; she has taken a very consistent interest in this particular area. You’ll be aware that, in the discussions we had prior to the formation of this Government, in the compact with Plaid Cymru, an IPFR review was one of the things that we agreed upon between our parties. I expect to come forward with some proposals, after discussion—hopefully, before recess—on what an IPFR review could look like and to set a timescale in a matter of months for that to take place. It is important to me that that review has proper clinical buy-in of clinicians with expertise in the area and that there is a proper patient voice as part of the evidence-gathering process. So, I can also confirm that, in any review, it is my view that for the review to have real meaning, it must consider again the points about whether there should or should not be a national panel—you’ll understand that the previous review came down against a national panel, for practical reasons as much as anything else—but also, to examine again whether the exceptionality criteria are the right way to proceed. So, I’m happy to confirm that I expect those to be part of the review and for us to be able to report back in a prompt manner to this place and then to undertake any changes, if that is what the review itself recommends.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Cabinet Secretary, as you’ve stated often, and repeated this afternoon, the need for a treatment fund extends beyond the cancer drugs issue and should incorporate a wide range of treatments, including new forms of radiotherapy, which I know the Cabinet Secretary for Education championed in the last Assembly—CyberKnife stereotactic body radiotherapy, and proton beam therapy, and an information event is actually being sponsored by Bethan Jenkins tomorrow on that issue. But, they depend upon equipment and a trained workforce. So, what investment strategies has the Welsh Government established to introduce greater availability of such treatments across Wales, and what workforce requirements have been identified to deliver these?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

I thank the Member for the question. One of the points I’ll make is that, on life sciences and the life sciences industry, we’ve actually got a good record on seeing development here, and the proton beam developments that could take place in south-east Wales are being led by the private sector, and that could lead to improved access in the NHS here in Wales but also potentially improve costs as well. We could actually see people coming in from other parts of England to use a service there. So, the commissioning will be important, and I look forward to having constructive conversations on the life sciences industry with my colleague Julie James, the Minister for Skills and Science.

On your broader point about workforce planning, of course there is an issue here about making sure we have the right workforce, equipped with the right skills to undertake the right care in the right place at the right time, and I’m really pleased to remind Members of the decision made at the end of the last Assembly, by my predecessor, on medical training. We will train more nurses than ever before, and more radiologists than ever before, so, we recognise where we need to have more people coming into the service with the right skills to deliver the sort of modern healthcare service that we need. It is doctors, it is nurses, and a whole range of other professions who are needed to ensure that we can deliver the sort of service that all of us wish to see.

Andrew RT Davies (Conservative, South Wales Central)

6. What measures is the Welsh Government planning to implement in order to tackle A&E waiting times across South Wales Central? OAQ(5)0006(HWS)

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

I expect health boards to work with their partners to ensure people have timely access to emergency care services when they need them. The national programme for unscheduled care is driving a whole-system approach to facilitate sustainable change and improvement for unscheduled health and care services across Wales.

Andrew RT Davies (Conservative, South Wales Central)

Thank you for that answer, Cabinet Secretary. In March, the A&E waiting times showed that 380 people had waited 12 hours or more at the University Hospital of Wales, as opposed to 111 people in January. Clearly, these figures are clearly very disturbing, and despite what you’ve just said in your first answer to me, something is going very much amiss in the delivery of A&E services here in Cardiff. What certainty can you give that those figures will not continue to go up and that, actually, people will be seen within the Welsh Government’s own targets and that we can have confidence that when we do go into the winter, the winter pressure scenario will not exacerbate these figures that I’ve just quoted to you already?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Thank you for the follow-up question. I expect that when figures are published for April, we’ll see a further improvement on 12-hour waits, and Cardiff and Vale University Local Health Board have actually done a relatively good job in driving down the number of 12-hour waits. They know, from my own point of view, that I expect to see further progress made so that there are fewer and fewer people waiting 12 hours in any of our hospitals here in Cardiff and Vale. So, progress made, but much more progress still needed to do, I think is the point.

It’s important to me that the system is in balance before we head into winter. I don’t want to see an unscheduled care system that has not recovered and is not in a stable place before we get into the winter months and inevitable winter pressure. We all know that, right across the UK family, winter pressures mean that there are changes in the numbers of people coming in and the acuity of people coming in to our unscheduled care system and the length of time it often takes to treat those people as well. We’re not uniquely facing a challenge in that sense, but it’s not just about A&E: it’s about what takes place within the community to avoid people coming into an A&E unit in the first place, and also, on delayed transfers of care, making it so that people are able to leave the hospital when it’s appropriate for them to do so as well. So, that whole-system approach has to be looked at, not just the figures in an A&E unit on our four-hour and our 12-hour figures, but to understand what we can do for the whole-system approach. As I say, I do think you’ll see an improvement again when the figures come out for April.

Mick Antoniw (Labour, Pontypridd)

Cabinet Secretary, the link between accident and emergency challenges and the support for adult social care is well established. We’ve seen the crisis that’s occurred in accident and emergency admissions in England because of an 8 per cent real-terms cut in support for adult social care. What steps are the Welsh Government taking to ensure there is adequate support for adult social care in Wales to avoid the problems that are faced and caused a crisis in England occurring within Wales?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

I thank the Member for the question. It highlights the fact that there are UK-wide pressures, and we’re taking different approaches to them. In England, they’ve taken an approach that has reduced funding into adult social care. We spend 7 per cent higher on health and social services per head, or £172, more in Wales than in England. We’ve also taken a different approach because of the way our health and social care services are organised. We don’t have the competitive and at times antagonistic relationship between providers in England, for example. That means that we’ve been able to take a system-wide approach to delayed transfers of care, working with a care system that has not been denuded of funds, and actually the morale of staff in England is particularly difficult. That’s why we’ve seen a fall over the last couple of months in delayed transfers here in Wales, which are at a record high in England since figures actually began. So, there are real lessons of what we’re doing here in Wales, and the positive points about that, but there’s no complacency here, because what we have done is to manage what we need to do and to understand more about what we do so that people don’t have a poor experience of going into the unscheduled care system, and equally they move into an appropriate place within the care system that meets their needs and understands what we could and should do to support them to maintain as much independence as possible. Much of that is how we prevent people from going into a hospital in the first place.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

And finally question 7—Rhianon Passmore.

Rhianon Passmore (Labour, Islwyn)

7. Will the Minister provide an update on progress the Welsh Government has made in meeting its aim of reducing smoking rates in Wales? OAQ(5)0017(HWS)

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

The Welsh health survey 2015 reports that 19 per cent of adults smoke. This reduction means the Welsh Government has already exceeded its aim of reducing smoking rates to 20 per cent by 2016, and is well on track to achieve its ambitious target to reduce levels to 16 per cent by 2020.

Rhianon Passmore (Labour, Islwyn)

Diolch. It’s very good news, then, that the Welsh Government has exceeded its 2016 target of reducing the level of smoking to 20 per cent. How do you plan to achieve our ambitious target of reducing those levels to 16 per cent by 2020?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

Thank you. We intend to build on our success so far with the new tobacco control strategic board, which has been set up to oversee the next steps forward. We have three specific sub-groups looking at best practice on smoking prevention, cessation and the denormalisation of smoking behaviours as well, to make it particularly unattractive to young people. We also have a separate task and finish group looking at ways of decreasing the demand for illegal tobacco, and these sub-groups will come together to provide us with recommendations for a refreshed tobacco control delivery plan to take us along those next steps to 2020. And, of course, this approach goes alongside all the work that’s going on there together at a UK level, such as standardised packaging to ensure a co-ordinated and comprehensive approach to tobacco control in Wales.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Thank you, Minister.

3. 3. Motion under Standing Order 16.1 to Establish an Interim Committee on Constitutional and Legislative Affairs

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The next item is the motion under Standing Order 16.1 to establish an interim Committee on Constitutional and Legislative Affairs. I call on a member of the Business Committee to move the motion—Paul Davies.

Paul Davies (Conservative, Preseli Pembrokeshire)

Formally.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Thank you. The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? If there are no objections, the motion is agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

4. 4. Motion to Elect Members to a Committee

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The next item on our agenda is the motion to elect Members to a committee, and I call on a member of the Business Committee to move the motion—Paul Davies.

Paul Davies (Conservative, Preseli Pembrokeshire)

Formally.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? If not, the motion is agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

5. 5. Debate by Individual Members under Standing Order 11.21(iv): the European Union

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The next item is the debate by individual Members under Standing Order 11.21(iv). Before we start this debate, I’d like to remind Members of my expectations when it comes to behaviour in the Chamber. This is a subject on which there are strongly held views on both sides on a very topical issue. That should mean that we have an interesting, engaging and passionate debate, but that’s no excuse for heckling or otherwise speaking over speakers or any kind of behaviour that would detract from the dignity of this place. I would also remind Members, given the level of interest in this debate, that I want to call as many Members as possible, so I will limit speakers to three minutes each, with the exception of those opening and closing the debate and the Minister responding to it. As this is an individual Member debate, I will also be seeking to ensure a fair reflection of both sides of the argument, rather than a party-political balance, as I would normally do. Therefore, I call on Eluned Morgan to move the motion.

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Thank you, Presiding Officer. In over a week’s time, the people of Wales will have a huge responsibility: the responsibility of deciding what kind of future we want for our country. Do we want to live in an introverted, narrow country or live in an outward-looking nation that understands that if we want to have influence in the world we need to collaborate with our closest neighbours? This decision will impact on our future for generations to come, and I wish to underline today that I believe that we benefit in Wales more than any other part of the United Kingdom from our membership of the European Union. We are more prosperous, more secure and more influential because of our membership of the European Union.

Roedd tîm pêl-droed Cymru yn destun cryn dipyn o falchder i ni yr wythnos diwethaf. Maent hefyd wedi ein hatgoffa ein bod yn gryfach gyda’n gilydd. Rydym yn gryfach gyda’n gilydd ar y cae pêl-droed ac mae angen i ni ddeall ein bod yn gryfach pan fyddwn yn gweithredu ar y cyd gyda’n cymdogion agosaf hefyd. Y ffaith yw bod Cymru yn well ei byd yn ariannol diolch i’n haelodaeth o’r Undeb Ewropeaidd. Rydym yn derbyn llawer mwy yn ôl nag a rown i mewn: £79 y pen yn ôl adroddiad diweddar. Mae ein seilwaith wedi cael ei ailadeiladu diolch i arian Ewropeaidd. Mae pobl wedi cael eu hyfforddi—200,000 ohonynt—diolch i gyllid Ewropeaidd a chrëwyd swyddi wrth y miloedd diolch i arian yr UE.

Yn ddamcaniaethol, gallem barhau i gael yr haen uchaf hon o gyllid tan 2020. Rydym eisoes wedi clustnodi’r arian ar gyfer adfywio ein cymunedau, cefnogi’r di-waith ac ailadeiladu ein seilwaith, gan gynnwys cysylltiadau trafnidiaeth fel y metro. Nid oes gennym unrhyw syniad a fydd y cyllid hwn yn dod. Gallai’r prosiectau hyn fod mewn perygl ac nid oes gennyf fi, yn un, unrhyw hyder o gwbl y bydd Llywodraeth adain dde yn Llundain sy’n gwneud cam â ni’n barod drwy fformiwla Barnett yn ein digolledu am yr hyn a gymerir oddi wrthym pe baem yn gadael yr UE.

Mae rhai yn yr ymgyrch dros adael yn gwneud addewidion i ffermwyr er nad eu lle hwy fydd penderfynu. Mae’n amlwg nad ydynt eto wedi deall fod amaethyddiaeth yn fater wedi’i ddatganoli. Ond nid y cyllid hwn yw’r prif reswm economaidd dros aros yn yr UE. Dylem geisio gwella ein cyfoeth fel nad oes angen y cyllid hwn arnom. Ond mae’r sicrwydd o berthyn i’r farchnad economaidd fwyaf yn y byd—500 miliwn o bobl—sy’n rhoi cyfleoedd i ni werthu ein nwyddau ac yn rhoi cyfleoedd nad ydynt wedi dechrau cael eu gwireddu yn y sector gwasanaeth eto, yn bethau na ddylem eu peryglu.

Yr wythnos hon, clywsom fod Cymru unwaith eto wedi cyrraedd lefelau uwch nag erioed o fewnfuddsoddiad. Mae’r cwmnïau hyn yn dewis ymsefydlu yma am ei fod yn rhoi llwyfan iddynt fynd i mewn i’r farchnad sengl honno. Gwyddom fod 150,000 o swyddi yn ddibynnol ar y berthynas honno. Nawr, nid oes neb yn awgrymu bod y swyddi hynny’n mynd i ddiflannu dros nos, ond os ydych yn eistedd ym mhencadlys Ford, yna mae angen i chi wneud penderfyniad yn y blynyddoedd sydd i ddod ynglŷn ag a ydych yn mynd i ymsefydlu yn Sbaen, lle mae ganddynt ffatri hefyd, neu yma yng Nghymru. Os edrychwch ar yr ychwanegiad at y pris sydd ei angen arnoch i fynd i mewn i’r farchnad honno—bron 10 y cant pe baem y tu allan i ardal y farchnad sengl Ewropeaidd—yna mae’n rhaid i chi ofyn, ‘Pa ddewis y maent yn debygol o wneud?’ Faint o’n cwmnïau allforio ein hunain all barhau’n gystadleuol mewn gwirionedd pan fo’r ychwanegiad at y pris bron 10 y cant yn fwy na’u cystadleuwyr Ewropeaidd?

Caiff 94 y cant o gig oen Cymru ei allforio i’r Undeb Ewropeaidd. A wyddoch chi beth? Mae llawer o ffermwyr rwy’n eu hadnabod wedi dweud, ‘Edrychwch, gadewch i ni droi cefn ar yr Undeb Ewropeaidd, gadewch i ni droi cefn ar fiwrocratiaeth’, ond maent â’u pennau yn y cymylau os ydynt yn credu y byddant yn gallu parhau i allforio a rhwygo’r rheolau a’r rheoliadau sydd angen iddynt lynu atynt os ydynt am gael mynediad at y farchnad honno. Y gwahaniaeth mawr yw na fydd ganddynt unrhyw lais yn y modd y llunnir y rheolau hynny.

Byddai ein prifysgolion yn dioddef yn enbyd o golli cyllid ymchwil a datblygu. Mae’r rhain yn creu swyddi’r dyfodol, y swyddi a fydd yn talu am ein model cymdeithasol, yn talu am ein pensiynau a’n systemau iechyd. A bydd pris i’w dalu ar unwaith. Mae’r Sefydliad Astudiaethau Cyllid wedi awgrymu y gallai’r economi golli oddeutu £30 biliwn pe baem yn gadael—£30 biliwn sydd ar hyn o bryd yn cael ei wario ar ein systemau iechyd ac addysg. Ac nid pobl fel Boris a Gove fydd yn dioddef; y mwyaf agored i niwed a’r tlotaf yn ein cymdeithas fydd yn dioddef baich y toriadau hyn. Nid yw’r ymgyrch dros adael, hyd yn oed ar y cam diweddar hwn, wedi rhoi unrhyw syniad i ni sut beth fydd eu gweledigaeth o ‘adael’. Ni fyddech yn cyfnewid eich tŷ am un arall heb ei weld yn gyntaf, heb fod yn siŵr ynglŷn â’i leoliad a’r amwynderau lle bo’n briodol. Mae’r naid hon i’r tywyllwch yn wallgofrwydd yn fy marn i.

Ac mae’r syniad fod unrhyw wlad unigol yn gallu arwain penderfyniadau yn y byd cynyddol fyd-eang sydd ohoni heddiw yn ffantasi. Pan aeth yr awyrennau i mewn i’r tyrrau, cymerodd funudau iddo effeithio ar ein marchnad stoc. Eisoes mae’r ansicrwydd o beidio â gwybod beth sy’n mynd i ddigwydd yr wythnos nesaf wedi dileu biliynau oddi ar y farchnad stoc; mae wedi gostwng gwerth y bunt. Nid ydym yn rheoli hynny. Mae sofraniaeth yn y gymdeithas fyd-eang heddiw yn rhith. Mae fel dychmygu Tim Peake yn brolio i fyny yn ei orsaf ofod, yn annibynnol, yn gwneud ei benderfyniadau, ond y gwir amdani yw na fyddai yno heb fod llwyth o wahanol gymunedau a gwledydd yn cydweithio gyda’i gilydd, yn gwneud yn siŵr ei fod yn gallu gwneud ei waith.

Nawr, mae’r UE yn bell o fod yn berffaith, ond ar ôl eistedd mewn siambr euraid lle’r oedd pobl yno oherwydd damwain eu geni’n unig, gallaf ddweud wrthych na ddylem daflu cerrig. Wrth gwrs, mae Llafur yn awyddus i weld UE sy’n ymrwymedig i gyfiawnder cymdeithasol, UE sy’n amddiffyn hawliau pobl fel gweithwyr, fel dinasyddion, fel defnyddwyr, UE sy’n deall yr angen i warchod yr amgylchedd, yr angen i fynd i’r afael â newid yn yr hinsawdd a’r angen i barchu datblygu cynaliadwy. Rydym wedi elwa o lu o ddeddfau Ewropeaidd. Mae gennym rai o’r traethau glanaf yn Ewrop. Mae gennym safonau uchel ar gyfer cyfraddau ailgylchu. Mae gennym aer sy’n lanach. A fyddem yn cael caniatâd i fynd ar drywydd troseddwyr tramor, monitro eithafwyr a gweithio gyda Europol? Y ffaith amdani yw nad oes neb yn gwybod.

A chri’r Torïaid heddiw ynghylch ‘biwrocratiaeth’ yw ein cri ninnau dros ddiogelu gweithwyr. Mae’r felin drafod Open Europe, y seiliwyd llawer o ffigurau’r ymgyrch dros adael arni, wedi cyfrifo costau’r fiwrocratiaeth hon. Gadewch i mi roi un enghraifft i chi. Maent yn dweud bod y gyfarwyddeb oriau gwaith, sy’n cyfyngu ar oriau gwaith i 48 awr yr wythnos, yn costio £4 biliwn i’r wlad. Maent yn dweud nad oes unrhyw fanteision iddi. Wel, dywedwch hynny wrth y glanhawr sydd heb lais ynglŷn ag yw’n cael gweithio goramser. Dywedwch hynny wrth y fam orlwythog â gwaith sydd eisiau mynd i weld ei phlant. Dywedwch hynny wrth bobl fel fy ngŵr a oedd, pan oedd yn feddyg dan hyfforddiant, yn gorfod gweithio 110 awr i’r GIG. Fy hun, rwy’n hapus i ildio rhywfaint o sofraniaeth er mwyn sicrhau’r amddiffyniad sydd ei angen arnom ac y gwyddom na fyddwn yn ei gael gan Lywodraeth sy’n benderfynol o leihau hawliau gweithwyr, fel y gwelsom yn eu cyflwyniad i’r Bil Undebau Llafur. Ond rwy’n credu bod rhaid i ni gofio, wrth sôn am farchnadoedd, am hawliau ac am yr amgylchedd, mai’r UE yw’r enghraifft fwyaf llwyddiannus mewn hanes o sefydliad sy’n creu heddwch.

Wyddoch chi, 75 mlynedd yn ôl, tua dwy filltir i ffwrdd o’r union fan hon, cafodd tŷ fy nhad ei ddymchwel yn llwyr gan fom Almaenig. Pwy all ddychmygu braw’r plentyn hwnnw druan a phlant eraill o’i gwmpas? Roeddent yn meddwl eu bod yn ddiogel yn eu cartrefi yma yng Nghymru a daethant yn darged i’r gelyn. Yn y byd hwn sy’n llawn o ansefydlogrwydd, o fygythiadau, o heriau byd-eang newydd, gwae ni os cymerwn yr heddwch hwnnw’n ganiataol. Gobeithiaf y bydd pobl Cymru yn meddwl yn ofalus iawn yr wythnos nesaf ac yn dewis pleidleisio dros ffyniant, dros heddwch a diogelwch a thros barhau i fod yn rhan o’r Undeb Ewropeaidd.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Mark Isherwood.

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

Oh, heck. Diolch. Apologies, Presiding Officer. We don’t need to be in the EU to co-operate with European partners. Wales in Britain must be a sovereign partner of Europe not a province of the EU as part of an outward-looking global community. If we leave, nothing immediately changes during the first two years. Both farm support and structural funding would then be a matter for the UK Government in consultation with the devolved administrations. Because the UK is a major net contributor to the EU, more money would be available.

When the EU Commission planned to allocate structural funds for the period 2014-2020, it sought cuts for Wales of around 27 per cent. The UK Government reallocated part of the funding for England to rebalance some of that shortfall. With Wales out of the EU, future funding will be determined by politicians accountable to the Welsh electorate.

The UK subsidised its farmers before it joined the EU and would do so after we vote ‘leave’, with the Welsh Government responsible for replacing badly designed EU farm regulations with new policies to help farmers. The UK farming Minister made it clear that a UK Government would continue to give farmers and the environment at least as much support as they get now. Even the Prime Minister has made that clear.

Mick Antoniw (Labour, Pontypridd)

Thank you for taking the intervention. Of course, I listened to the interview that person actually made, and when he was challenged on it he said he couldn’t give any guarantee. Are you saying he could give a guarantee or do you agree with him that he cannot give a guarantee, just a wish list?

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

As a Minister he can bring forward proposals and if the House of Commons passes it as the sovereign body with elected politicians it will happen, and the Prime Minister himself made that commitment. After all, non-EU countries like Switzerland and Norway actually give more support to their farmers than the UK and Wales do.

The EU is a shrinking market for the UK, with exports of goods and services to the EU falling from 54 per cent in 2006 to just 44 per cent today. Over 60 per cent of Welsh exports are now to non-EU countries. In 2014, the share of UK goods exports going to countries outside the EU was higher than every other EU member state except Malta. The UK-EU balance of trade has favoured the rest of the EU every year since we joined except 1975, and the UK now has a record trade deficit with the EU. The UK is the EU’s largest export partner, guaranteeing millions of EU jobs. It is overwhelmingly in the EU’s interest to agree a friendly UK-EU free trade deal.

As the former deputy director of the International Monetary Fund’s European research department said two weeks ago, when we go back to core economic principles,

‘Economics is neutral on whether to leave or remain’.

In supporting a European federal union, Churchill stressed that Great Britain could never be a part of it, stating,

‘We are with Europe, but not of it. We are linked but not combined. We are interested and associated but not absorbed.’

Well, it’s time to put sovereignty before the scaremongers, democracy before the doomsayers and freedom before fear. It’s time to take our United Kingdom back.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Llywydd, I’m a big fan of The Clash. I remember seeing them at Sofia Gardens when I was 17. I can’t get into those size 28 leather trousers any more—if I ever could—though the ringing in my ears, and there is, is a constant reminder that I may have overdosed on loud music at those concerts—Siouxsie and the Banshees, The Damned, Tom Robinson and, of course, The Clash. So, it’s good to hear one of their totemic tracks, ‘Should I Stay or Should I Go’, on the airwaves and in the news so much lately. From Radio 4 to Radio Wales to opinion pieces in ‘Time’ magazine and the Norfolk ‘Eastern Daily Press’. I bet they never thought that this punchy punk rock track would end up as a backdrop for a debate on the future of the UK and EU membership.

For Wales, for south Wales, for my constituency of Ogmore, there are clear reasons why it’s better not to have the door of the EU slammed in our faces, and the first is the spending power. One of the benefits of the EU is that funds can be allocated towards regions of greater need, so we are, inarguably, better off financially in the EU because we receive structural funds for the Valleys and for rural development funds and so on well beyond what we put in—well beyond what we put in. And yes, this is our money, but it’s our money coming back with even more added into south Wales and the west and the Valleys. Anyone arguing for Leave is arguing (a) for less regional and rural development money coming to west Wales and the Valleys and rural communities or (b) has had secret talks with the Chancellor to guarantee that he’ll bolster the block grant for Wales to replace the lost moneys and, as we just heard, there is no guarantee.

Some £1.8 million of those funds went into the regeneration of Maesteg market, also supported ably by the Labour local authority. They went into the Bridges into Work scheme, benefiting up to 2,000 people in Ogmore and throughout the south Wales Valleys, improving training and mentoring for skills into work. And £1.7 million went into the STEM Cymru scheme, promoting careers in science, technology, engineering and maths to our young people. And, for a rural wards—and that’s all but two of the wards in my constituency of Ogmore—it goes into real improvements in the places we live, through the EU-funded Welsh Government-administered rural development programme, creating things like a community gym in a refurbished church hall in Blaengarw or renovating the Llangynwyd village hall, turning it from a semi-derelict unused shell into a thriving community space that brings people together and provides a lovely cup of tea and cake as well. It’s the extension of this with the new Bridgend Thriving Rural Communities scheme, promoted by Bridgend’s Labour council, offering support and grants of up to £100,000 for ideas to improve and regenerate our communities. I could go on.

So, should we stay or should we go? Well, maybe there is a hint in the song itself, subtly tucked away. In the fury of the rock riff and the belted out lyrics, it’s easy to miss the fact that the chorus is being sung in sync in Tex-Mex and Castilian Spanish by Joe Ely and the late, great Joe Strummer. Castilian Spanish in a quintessentially British punk rock classic. Maybe it’s trying to tell us something: we’re better off staying together.

Neil Hamilton (UKIP, Mid and West Wales)

Labour Members don’t seem to have caught up with the news that project fear isn’t working. Look at the opinion polls. The public don’t believe you any longer. Of course, the truth of the matter is that every single penny that is spent by the EU on all these great projects that we’ve heard catalogued this afternoon is our money. And, on top of that, we’re sending £10 billion a year to the EU that they’re spending elsewhere. That £10 billion could be added to all the projects that have been described today. The truth of the matter is that the EU is an economic dead-end. In 1980, it accounted for 30 per cent of world trade; today, it accounts for only 15 per cent and declining. The EU is the only part of the world—the only continent—that has had zero growth in this century, apart from Antarctica. All the other continents in the world have been roaring ahead. As regards trade between the UK and the EU, the idea that this is going to come to a stop if we were to leave after the vote on 23 June is just complete nonsense.

I don’t suppose that Labour Members have caught up with the other news this week that we had a £24 billion trade deficit with the EU in the first quarter of this year alone. That’s a £100 billion-a-year trade deficit. Why on earth would the EU want to erect trade barriers against us when they gain so much from trade with us, unless they’re acting irrationally? And if they are acting irrationally, why would we want to be shackled to people who are not rational? The whole thing is nonsense. Our exports to the EU in 2000 were 60 per cent of our total exports worldwide. Today, as Mark Isherwood has pointed out, they are only 44 per cent. That’s because the eurozone is a total disaster, and for those poor people in Spain, in Portugal, in Greece, in Italy and in France who see their countries going down the tubes, then it’s certainly no cakewalk for them because they are paying the price of euro madness.

The idea that we’re going to be excluded from European trade is just nonsense. Even if we came to no trade—

Mick Antoniw (Labour, Pontypridd)

Thank you for taking the intervention. Of course, one of the arguments that you haven’t mentioned is the importance of workers’ rights protection through Europe. You were a member of the Thatcher Government in the 1980s that devastated trade unions, that smashed workers’ rights, that smashed the National Union of Mineworkers and the coal industry; do you not think that before there can be any confidence or belief that your campaign will do anything to support workers’ rights, you should apologise for your role in the Thatcher Government in the 1980s?

Neil Hamilton (UKIP, Mid and West Wales)

Well, this just goes to show how far Labour is living in the past—doesn’t it—that we’re arguing today about what happened 30-odd years ago rather than what’s happening in the world today. But, what I note is that the Labour Government for, I think, the last 30 years, did nothing to repeal any of the measures that that Tory Government of the 1980s introduced. So, so much for that argument.

But to return to the point that I was making about access to the single market if we were to leave, we would have to jump over a tariff of an average of 3 per cent, which is nonsense. This is all about taking back control of our own country and giving the control of public policy to people who we can elect and dismiss, not unelected, faceless bureaucrats in Brussels whom we can’t even name.

Dawn Bowden (Labour, Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney)

I suppose we all have experiences that help us to reach a particular view on the question of our membership of the European Union. In my case, I draw upon 30 years’ experience as a trade union official before being elected to this Assembly. I know from first-hand experience that workers in Wales and their families are better off because the EU provides for a basic range of workers’ rights. These include—and these are not exclusive; this is not an exclusive list—the transfer of undertakings regulations; the minimum leave entitlements; anti-discrimination laws; maternity and paternity rights; a limit on maximum working hours; guaranteed rest breaks; health and safety regulations and equal treatment for temporary, agency and part-time staff, including access to pensions, which, incidentally, we had to fight for through the European courts. Many voices in the Brexit camp see these minimum standards as so-called red tape or costs to business. We are told that, if the UK could remove these minimum standards, then things would somehow and magically improve for workers.

Well, I remember many of those same voices who opposed the national minimum wage and, when asked about discrimination legislation, said they would remove most of it. So, I, for one, will take no recommendation from them when it comes to workers’ rights in Europe. My message to workers across Wales is this: the big issue in our economy is fighting the conditions that allow the continuing exploitation of workers, not removing the rights that those workers currently enjoy. The last thing workers in Wales need is a Tory Government at Westminster being given the opportunity to embark on another attack on hard-won employment rights. Left to their own devices, what Tories deliver are draconian laws like the recent Trade Union Act. What more would follow if we vote to leave the union on 23 June?

Llywydd, I’d like to now turn to the economic benefit of EU membership in my own constituency of Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney. In Merthyr Tydfil alone, EU-funded projects have helped over 4,000 people into work, with another 2,000 plus benefitting from EU-funded apprenticeships. The EU has contributed towards a number of projects that have benefitted the local economy, including the town centre regeneration, creating the Penderyn square, the redevelopment of the Redhouse and the Taff Bargoed regeneration area. We have the Bike Park Wales, the riverside walk in Rhymney, the Winding House museum—all great attractions to enjoy, funded partly by European money.

On transport, we welcome the ongoing investment in the Heads of the Valleys road, the upgrade of the Rhymney station and the investment in the line from Merthyr to Cardiff, providing a basis for further work to deliver the metro. And, of course, in the current context of the excitement around the Welsh football team, it would be remiss not to mention the redevelopment of Merthyr Town FC’s Penydarren Park.

For me, at the heart of this EU debate is a basic question, and it is this: do you really feel that a Tory Government would provide the level of support that we currently see for communities like Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney, and enjoy the same workers’ rights across the UK, if we were not in the European Union? Llywydd, my conclusion is that we would not.

Mark Reckless (UKIP, South Wales East)

Holiday pay was thanks to Neville Chamberlain. Equal pay at work was thanks to the women of Dagenham, and to Barbara Castle. Presiding Officer, campaigns reveal character. As we speak, the First Minister stands side by side with David Cameron—united against people governing themselves, united for free movement and unlimited immigration, united with a Prime Minister who tried to protect the EU budget in real terms, until he lost a vote in Parliament. Later, he lost some seats in Parliament, although he won mine back. Indeed, he spoke about this today, at what may prove to be his last Prime Minister’s questions. ‘Happy days’, he said, as he reminisced about my defeat. We may soon reminisce about his.

He and his Chancellor want to remain, whatever the price to truth, and whatever the price to other people’s jobs, because they want to protect their jobs, and their positions. I may have an insight into why the Chancellor acts as he did. I first met the Chancellor at freshers’ week in Oxford. I spoke in a debate, arguing for no confidence in a Conservative Government that had just joined the European exchange rate mechanism, to crucify our economy at the altar of its European project. Afterwards, George Osborne said to me that, while I might be right about the economics, he would always support Europe, because he felt more in common with the European aristocracy than he did with the British working class. Next Thursday, that British working class may bite back, because we will be better off out, because we are good enough to govern ourselves, because we are more than a star on somebody else’s flag.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Ynys Môn)

Will you take an intervention?

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Rhun ap Iorwerth.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Ynys Môn)

Are you going to mention Wales at all in your speech, or are you just betraying the fact that you are just using Wales as a vehicle to push your own agenda?

Mark Reckless (UKIP, South Wales East)

Wales, more, I think, than any part of our United Kingdom, I am pleased to say, will be better off outside the European Union. We get from the EU £600 million or £700 million, some argue on that side, yet, in per capita terms, our contribution is £1 billion a year, compared to perhaps £16 billion that we pay in tax to the UK Treasury, compared to £32 billion we get back in spending—a gap of £16 billion, perhaps, compared to, at best, £200 million or £300 million, one way or the other. Yet, his party wants to leave this United Kingdom, when we will be better off as independent Britain, in a community of the globe, raising our eyes to the horizon, better off out—[Interruption.]—trading with Europe—

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

He’s not taking an intervention.

Mark Reckless (UKIP, South Wales East)

[Continues.]—but governing ourselves.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Thank you. Jenny Rathbone.

Jenny Rathbone (Labour, Cardiff Central)

Campaigns do indeed reveal character, and people living in the past are the leavers, not the remainers. I’m in the strange position of today agreeing with George Osborne, who says that, if you are wealthy and don’t use public services, then you can afford to toy with the idea of harking back to a bygone era, when Britain ruled the waves, and the sun never set on the British empire. Because that is the direction that the leavers want to take us. They want to take us back in a time capsule. Remember 60 years ago, to the dirty days of the 1950s, when the pea soup fogs were so thick you couldn’t even see your own front door? Yes, it was the Clean Air Act 1956 that started the clean-up, but it is now the 2008 air quality directive that is going to hold Boris Johnson to account for having fiddled the figures on air pollution in the capital city.

Fifty years ago—let’s go back 50 years to the disaster of Aberfan. Impossible today, as a result of the 2006 management of waste from extractive industry directive, which actually quotes the Aberfan disaster as one of the things underpinning it. Let’s go back 40 years ago, where our beaches were full of raw sewage, and today, since the 1976 bathing waters directive, we now have clean beaches and many, many of them in Wales, of which we can be proud.

The people who really, really want to leave the EU are the industrial polluters, the tax evaders, the food adulterers, the irresponsible and exploitative employers. I note that the leave flotilla up the Thames included a fishing trawler called the Christina S, guilty of a £63 million fishing scam in Scotland. These are the sorts of people who want us to leave, and, sadly, a conversation I had the other day with a senior civil servant, who told me privately that if we vote ‘leave’, we can turn this country into a tax haven, so we can attract all the hot money from around the world. Scarily, I don’t think he was joking; even more scarily, he was a retired judge. Contrast him and all the other greedy, selfish people at the top of the establishment who never need to use public services, apart from the bin collections, with people who are struggling in austerity Britain, who somehow think, misguidedly, that voting ‘leave’ will ameliorate their suffering. For example, the unemployed graduate I spoke to last night, who’s planning to vote to leave—he thinks, tragically, his situation will improve when, in fact, the opposite is the case; also the people in my constituency on zero-hours contracts, who’ve had their wages frozen for the last several years, and who are fearful that more immigrants will lead to even lower wages for them; the pensioner who thinks that by leaving, their grandchildren are going to get a house that they currently can’t get. This is an argument for building more housing, not for leaving the EU. The ‘leave’ lot have lost all the economic arguments, so that they are now using the sorry spectre of immigration to peddle their poison. This is absolutely—

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Can you bring your conclusions to an end now?

Jenny Rathbone (Labour, Cardiff Central)

Yes. Anyway, just to say that I think that we need to recognise whey we formed the European Union—to ward off the return of fascism and to represent the democratic future we all need to have. We need to lead on Europe, not leave it.

David Melding (Conservative, South Wales Central)

I just want to say a few words about the single market, which I believe to be a singular British achievement and something that continues to offer great opportunities to Wales, and even greater as it extends more to services, having been based initially on goods. We’ve heard a lot of talk about somehow things will almost be the same if we leave, only we’ll have much more control over resources and over our democracy. Well, things will change, otherwise it’s hardly worth leaving. I don’t think the markets will react with equanimity to a decision that they’re routinely telling us would be damaging to the British, and therefore, the Welsh economy. Something will happen to the pound, and nearly everyone says it will go down. In fact, some leavers are welcoming that because of the fact it would make our exports cheaper. But these facts have to be faced. They’ll have a profound effect on the British economy, and the Welsh economy in the next few years.

And we do hear from some—there was a hint of it in what Neil Hamilton said—that the single market will still be there for us to take advantage of. Well, whatever else happens, our access to it will not be as profitable as it is today. The single market also offers London great opportunities, and if we withdraw from the European Union, the future of London, as the first and still the premier global city, will be affected, and I believe the economy of south Wales needs to attract more and more resources from an overcrowded London, and an expanding London, as we see our own services strengthened, particularly in the professional sphere, and all that would be put in peril and the potential of Cardiff, and the area around Cardiff, as an economic magnet would be much, much weakened.

The single market was invented in the 1980s by the Thatcher Government. I think this is perhaps part of the guilt problem that certain Conservatives have—that it worked: it transformed Europe because we pushed through the principle of majority voting. It was a Conservative idea to get Europe going and, boy, it not only got Europe going, it then absorbed eastern Europe into the current European Union. What would have happened if eastern Europe had become a string of failed states, like we see now around the Maghreb and the middle east? What sort of world would we be living in if that had happened?

There’ve been huge successes in the European Union, not only in the single market, but also expansion and we should give thanks that we live in a more secure world as a result, whatever our challenges, and we do face challenges. But, frankly, to face your challenges without your neighbours is, in my view, a very reckless strategy indeed. Also, to say that you want to be open to the world, but as your first step to that openness, you’re turning your back on your neighbours, is a flat contradiction and I hope the electorate see through it a week tomorrow.

David Rowlands (UKIP, South Wales East)

First of all, there is no such thing as European money—it’s British money coming back to us after they’ve purloined half of it. But I’d like here to perhaps pause and reflect on Wales’s constitutional position within Europe. As we all know, Brussels only recognises Wales as a mere region within Europe; it has no national status, whilst the very existence of this Senedd is testament to our growing state of nationhood within the United Kingdom. So, I put it to you—[Interruption.] I put it to you that only a fool would exchange being a nation in a union of nations we call the United Kingdom for that of a region in a vast conglomeration of regions that stretches from the Baltic to the Aegean and soon to be extended to the far side of the Bosphorus.

Mick Antoniw (Labour, Pontypridd)

Would you take an intervention? Thank you for taking the intervention. So, if your argument, constitutionally, is that you support an independent UK, do you also then support an independent and separate Wales?

David Rowlands (UKIP, South Wales East)

No, I don’t, because what I’m telling you is that we within Wales have a wonderful relationship with the other nations within the United Kingdom that has benefited us. There is no benefit to us within Europe. [Interruption.] There is no benefit to us to be in Europe.

Given this constitutional deficit, why is it that those who make up this institution feel that we will not get our fair share of the Brexit financial bonus? [Interruption.] I guessed you might be saying that, but there is going to be a Brexit financial bonus. And are they saying that the 40 Welsh MPs in Westminster would fail to carry out their duties in securing those funds for Wales? The majority of those MPs are, of course, Labour MPs.

Members have made much of workers’ rights. What rights do those on agency contracts or, worst of all, zero-hours contracts have—the most iniquitous form of employment since dockyard workers turned up at the dockyard gates to be hired for a single day’s work or not? So much for workers’ rights under the European Parliament. Labour, truthfully, has sold out to big business, bankers and the political elite of Europe. Thank you.

Hefin David (Labour, Caerphilly)

I’d like to express my support for those who are campaigning for a ‘remain’ vote in this referendum. It’s not for me to criticise those who wish to leave, but to make a positive case for why I’ve made a different decision after much thought. First and foremost in my mind is the well-being and prosperity of the people of Caerphilly. The chief executive of Catnic, a company based in my constituency, told me that approximately 30 per cent of their trade is with Germany, France and the Benelux region, and the EU enables that trade. That is a direct quote from them. A decision to radically change our trading relationships will directly impact negatively on Catnic.

I’ve also spoken to small business employers, who’ve used, for example, Jobs Growth Wales to hire staff, and they fear that the ending of £396 million of European funding will limit their ability to hire and train. That is directly from a small firm in my constituency. I simply, as Eluned has said, do not believe Boris and Gove when they say that they will make up that funding if we leave. I do not believe it.

But there is, undoubtedly, in Caerphilly an anti-EU feeling, which we have to say that UKIP have done their best to capitalise on. People in my constituency have told me that they feel—[Interruption.]—that the EU elite is—. I’m not going to take an intervention, because I’ve only got three minutes; I want to get through it. People in my constituency have told me that they feel that the EU is literally and figuratively distant from the day-to-day experiences of our community. If we vote to remain, this must change, and I will work to change that.

Indeed, I recall 20 years ago, when I was in sixth form in Bargoed, an academic from Cardiff University came to talk to us about joining the euro. He held up a pound coin and he said, ‘How can any of you have an emotional attachment to this piece of metal because the Queen’s face is on it?’ I remember, at that time, feeling incredulous and patronised. I can imagine Leanne Wood would feel the same; she’s looking at me right now. He completely failed to address though, in my view, the key problem with the single currency, and that is that interest rates are set for Germany, and that will not help Greece. Yet, we never joined the euro. Our parliamentary democracy and our sovereignty in Europe were strong enough to withstand this grandest of follies and this is one of the reasons I am confident in being a member of the European Union and confident we should remain.

Similarly, when we elected a Conservative Government in 1992, much to my dismay, they were able to exempt us from EU law based on principles of fair pay and equal rights, which Dawn Bowden has already mentioned. However, in 1997, when we had a Labour Government, we then signed up to those. Again, that was democracy. That was a democratic choice by the people of this country—a sovereign choice. Which brings me—and I do feel that these democratic decisions have partially fuelled right-wing campaigns to vote ‘leave’.

Which finally brings me to immigration. We must engage with these concerns. I believe that leaving the EU will lead, at best, to very little change in our ability to control our borders and we may make things even worse. Not only will a Europe without Britain be a less stable Europe, it will also remove any incentive countries like France have to police and protect our borders.

We must make a positive case for remain, one that encompasses the benefits for our economy, our democracy and our borders. I therefore urge Members to vote for ‘remain’ today.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

I now call on the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Local Government, Mark Drakeford.

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Diolch yn fawr, Lywydd. Can I thank those Members who have brought this important debate to the floor of the Assembly this afternoon? My job is to set out the position of the Welsh Government, and that position is absolutely clear. Our continued membership of the European Union is pivotal to our future in all its fundamental dimensions.

Now, we’ve heard a series of contributions this afternoon that set out just that case in criminal justice, in environmental protection, food security, employment rights and protection from discrimination. I want to begin by just reminding us of the cultural case: Wales is a European nation. The fact that two languages are in daily use in Wales puts us firmly in the European mainstream. The fact of being Welsh means to be comfortable with multiple identities. ‘O ble ti’n dod?’ ‘Where do you come from?’—the first question we ask each other. We understand that that answer can be the town or the village, the nation or, indeed, the continent to which we belong. We understand that we can belong to more than one place at one and the same time.

As well as those cultural affinities, as we’ve heard, the European Union brings us advantages that are social, economic and political. Socially, we on this side believe in a Europe of solidarity, a Europe of protected and extended rights for working people and the strong defence of the socially vulnerable. We heard from Dawn Bowden and others of just the practical way that those social rights bite in the lives of working people here in Wales.

Economically, as many people in this debate have said, the European Union is fundamental to us in Wales—in agriculture, in industry, in structural investment, in university research. Eluned Morgan began by outlining them all, and others, such as Huw Irranca-Davies, have gone on to place those practical economic advantages directly in the communities that we represent.

The direct funding to Wales from the European Union is worth more than £500 million every year. Over 500 companies from other European countries have their operations here in Wales, and those operations provide more than 57,000 jobs. A vote to leave the EU would inevitably cause major concerns about that sort of international investment. It is absolute nonsense to suggest that leaving the European Union would have no impact here on the economy of Wales. It would. It would begin to happen the day after such a decision was made, and the impact would be deeply damaging.

But, Llywydd, perhaps politically—and this is a political forum, after all—the case for the European Union is the most powerful of all. All of us in this Chamber are hugely fortunate to have lived for more than 70 years without a war between the nations of Europe. Just as we heard from Eluned at the start, I think of my own family. Both of my grandfathers were combatants in the first world war. I vividly remember, as a child in primary school, being told by eyewitnesses of the sight of Swansea burning from Carmarthen, 30 miles away. When I heard that story fewer years had gone by since those awful events than have gone by since the first opening of this National Assembly. The notion that conflict is a matter of the distant past, that 70 years of peace is somehow more typical than 1,000 years marked by warfare, is simply to fly in the face of history. The European Coal and Steel Community, the precursor of the union today, was set up in 1951 explicitly to ensure that the sinews of war, as they were called—coal and steel—would never again be used for wars between European neighbours. Today’s Europe, with its guarantees of shared democratic values and fundamental human rights is also our guarantee that differences are solved by politics not by force. It is unfathomable that we should be at a moment of risking that advantage in the pursuit of some embittered turning away from the world.

Llywydd, campaigns reveal character. I bring no advice for the Welsh working class from the freshers’ fair at Oxford. [Laughter.] But, I do know that the group of right-wing zealots who lead the campaign to take Wales and the United Kingdom out of Europe are gathering around the gambling table. It is our futures—those of our children and our country—that they are prepared to gamble away. Let the message go clearly from this Assembly this afternoon: Wales is better in Europe. Wales belongs to Europe, and that is the choice we need to make next week. [Applause.]

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

I call on Dafydd Elis-Thomas to reply to the debate.

Dafydd (Plaid Cymru, Dwyfor Meirionnydd)

Thank you very much, Llywydd. It’s a very difficult task to respond or even summarise a debate such as this, but I am grateful to all Members for us having a reasonable and relatively rational debate in the contributions made. We started with Mark Isherwood referring to the agricultural arguments and the kinds of arguments that I have heard a number of times in the area that I represent, and across west Wales: this concept that we can secure a future for Welsh agriculture and fisheries by returning to a regime that many of us well remember, before we had things such as the European lamb regime to develop and safeguard our industry, and likewise our fisheries are now protected through the system that we have in place. Because what’s important to bear in mind about the European Union is that it’s a union that has changed and reformed across the years. That was emphasised by Huw Irranca-Davies in terms of the importance of the investment in his community, the contributions of the structural funds to the economy of the Valleys of Wales time and time again.

Then, we came to the interesting and amusing contribution, as always, from Neil Hamilton, where he tried to emphasise on the one hand that ensuring that the United Kingdom were to actually exit the European Union would somehow ensure that there would be greater control over what happens in Wales, in England, in Ireland and in Scotland. This is an argument that I have failed to understand, because it seems to me to reject the most important argument about what the European Union provides us with. We live in a globalised world. That is the nature of what has developed across the globe. We have huge economic regions across the globe. Yet, you see this argument that’s put forward that for us as a kingdom to be outwith that global region would somehow be beneficial to us. I can’t accept that argument that the trade deficit between the European Union and the continent and the UK will be any sort of guarantee that we can have a new free market within the single market.

That’s what’s important, I think, that we bear in mind, that there are four main freedoms that are fundamental to the European Union: the freedom of movement of goods; the freedom of movement of services; the freedom of movement of capital; and the freedom of movement of people. This is where the debate on immigration confuses people more than any other, because it is not immigration when people come from the continent of Europe, which is part of the European Union, to work in Wales. That isn’t immigration. What that is is fellow citizens of a whole continent sharing work opportunities, as I can do if I were to go out to work within the European Union, or as our students working from Bangor University, where I—

Dafydd (Plaid Cymru, Dwyfor Meirionnydd)

Yes, I give way.

Iawn, fe gymeraf ymyriad.

David Rowlands (UKIP, South Wales East)

Thank you. It beggars belief to me that two so-called socialist parties that care about the working classes are those parties that advocate a huge number of people pouring into this country. They did not take chief executives’ jobs. They didn’t take top civil servants’ jobs. They didn’t take bankers’ jobs. They took working-class jobs. Where they didn’t take those jobs, they have forced the price of labour down to such a level that the living wage is now the standard wage. Disgraceful—for all of you.

Dafydd (Plaid Cymru, Dwyfor Meirionnydd)

The only thing I will say to you, David: without those people, what would happen to the fresh meat industry in Wales? And the NHS?

David Rowlands (UKIP, South Wales East)

If they paid—

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

No, the Member is not taking a further intervention. Dafydd Elis-Thomas.

Dafydd (Plaid Cymru, Dwyfor Meirionnydd)

Dawn Bowden emphasised the basic issue here of workers’ rights and standards, and I was very pleased to hear that argument. Then we came to Mark Reckless, who gave us edited highlights from his biography. I’ve always regarded autobiography as a work of fiction, so we’ll leave it there. Jenny Rathbone emphasised the importance of the environmental contribution, in terms of air quality, clean beaches and, of course, mine waste safety.

Yna, fy nghyfaill David Melding. Mae David Melding wedi arwain yn glir ar y cwestiwn Ewropeaidd ar hyd y blynyddoedd. Fe wnes i gamgymeriad yn y refferendwm cyntaf. Er gwaethaf ymgais Dafydd Wigley ac eraill i’m mherswadio i, fe bleidleisiais i yn erbyn aros i mewn yn 1975, ac rwyf wedi difaru bob dydd ers hynny. Mae David, yn hollol iawn, yn dadlau mai prosiect Ceidwadol Prydeinig yw’r farchnad sengl, a bod cyfraniad Llywodraeth Thatcher i hynny wedi bod yn gyfraniad sylweddol.

David Rowlands also gave us a lecture on the constitutional position of Wales. I’m afraid I do see this slightly differently, because I was sitting in the Chair there for a period and spent a lot of time discussing with European regions. Europe is a Europe of the regions, and it will continue to be a Europe of the regions, wherever Wales decides to place itself. And, in the Committee of the Regions, we have been represented very ably by my close friend here, Mick Antoniw, who was able to speak from personal experience during the crisis in Ukraine.

And, finally, I come to Hefin David’s contribution, where he mentioned the anti-EU feeling that is about in Wales. And, you know, if we lose this one, we’ve lost it, it’s the political class in Wales that lost it, because we haven’t made the argument strongly enough and have not particularly made the argument that Mark Drakeford, our Minister, ended with—the argument for multiple identity.

Yn yr Undeb Ewropeaidd, y mae’r Gymraeg yn iaith gyd-swyddogol. Nid yw’n gyd-swyddogol yn San Steffan. Dyna ddigon o ddadl i mi i aros yn Ewrop am byth.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? [Objection.] I will defer voting, therefore, under this item until voting time.

6. 6. Welsh Conservatives Debate: the Public Health Legacy of Euro 2016

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The next item is the Welsh Conservatives debate, and I call on Russell George to move the motion.

Russell George (Conservative, Montgomeryshire)

Thank you, Presiding Officer. I hope that this debate will be a little bit less controversial than the last, but I will be mentioning Europe a number of times in this debate. I’m pleased to introduce this debate on the effects of the European football championships on Wales, as well as the longer term health repercussions of the event, and to move the motion in the name of Paul Davies. I’m also pleased to indicate support for the amendment to our motion in the name of Simon Thomas.

I wanted to start today’s debate by congratulating the Welsh national football team. I’m sure that, like everyone else in the Assembly today, we are immensely proud of the achievements of our team in reaching their first international football tournament since the 1958 World Cup in Sweden, and the pride is only intensified following their victory, of course—their 2-1 victory over Slovakia on Saturday—and we’re only, of course, one result away from the knockout stage of the tournament, and wouldn’t it be so sweet if that result came against our English neighbours tomorrow?

Wales has got a proud history of sporting success in hosting major sporting events that far exceeds the norm for a country of our size. We hosted the 1999 Rugby World Cup, the FA Cup finals between 2001 and 2005, two Ashes test matches, an annual stage in the world rally championships, as well as the 2010 Ryder Cup, and we’ve also secured the rights to host the 2017 championship league final. I hope I haven’t missed anything out. If I have, please intervene. But many Welsh sportsmen, from Gareth Bale and Geraint Thomas to gold medallist Jade Jones, have risen to the top of their fields and have represented our country with distinction around the world. Now, despite these successes, sports participation rates across Wales are worryingly low. A previous Welsh Government, when it announced the ‘Climbing Higher’ strategy in 2005, stated their desire to place sport and physical activity at the heart of Welsh life. Now, recent surveys show that the proportion of adults undertaking more than 150 minutes of sport per week has only marginally increased, and, though these findings are of course welcome, I believe that they also highlight numerous areas where Government needs to concentrate on.

One of the main issues that desperately need to be addressed is the clear link between sports participation and socioeconomic background. People with lower earnings are far less likely to exercise on a regular basis, and, of course, I think we can all agree that that must be rectified. At a junior level, sports participation at primary schools across Wales has notably decreased. Physical education is, of course, essential to the upbringing of children all around Wales, and it’s encouraging that a healthy lifestyle keeps children fit and well-motivated to continue exercise, of course, in their adult life. At a time when all eyes are of course glued to the exploits of our boys in France, it should be asked where the future Gareth Bales will come from if the time dedicated to junior physical education continues to decrease.

Now, in regards to the impact of Welsh sport and exercise uptake, I’m particularly concerned that in the recent budget the previous Government cut funding to physical activity across Wales. Additionally, community funding for sporting and leisure clubs across Wales has also continued to decline, so at the same time fees are going up for our football and rugby pitches—I know in Cardiff it costs £55 now a football pitch, and £75 a rugby field. These increases are of course barriers to participation in sport. Now, with increased sports participation linked to good health, it naturally follows that low participation rates are detrimental to public health. In 2015, 24 per cent of the Welsh population was classified as obese, and 59 per cent of the population overweight. Weight problems, of course, bring with them additional health issues such as diabetes and higher blood pressure, both of which have increased dramatically in Wales over the past decade.

Now, economically, our success at the Euros also creates a fantastic opportunity to advertise Wales as a tourist destination, not only to Europeans, but also around the world. I was glad to see that the Welsh Government has taken steps to showcase our nation’s tourist destinations at the European Village, and has invested in advertisements in several languages to market this great country, and I hope that they’re successful in attracting visitors. Now, domestically of course, the Euros are also a good boon to our local clubs and bars and pubs, and I know that I’ll be doing my bit to help Montgomeryshire’s local economy at 2 p.m. tomorrow.

So, with many eyes watching the team across lounge rooms and pubs and fanzones across Wales, but also in France, the Euros present a brilliant opportunity to encourage participation in sport across Wales now and in the future, and I sincerely hope that the Welsh Government, working of course in partnership with other Government bodies, local authorities and key partners, builds upon the success of our football team to increase sporting participation, particularly among the most vulnerable of our society, and that steps are taken to improve the public health of Welsh men and Welsh women.

Finally, events like this bring a huge sense of national pride, and I want to take this opportunity to wish our football team the very best of luck tomorrow and for the rest of the tournament. [Assembly Members: ‘Hear, hear.’]

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Thank you very much. I have selected the amendment to the motion. Therefore I’ll call on Dai Lloyd to move amendment 1, tabled in the name of Simon Thomas. Dai Lloyd.

David Lloyd (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer, and thank you to Russell for opening this debate and for accepting our amendment, which is factual. We do regret that cuts have been made to grass-roots sports as a result of funding cuts, and it’s important as well for us to join in congratulating the Welsh football team, who had exceptional success over the weekend. And, of course, that is a great boost to the mental health of all of us, I would think, as we’re talking about the impact of sport on our health—not just physical health, but out mental health. Everybody is happier when our national teams have success and especially so during that time in the second half when it appeared quite poor, but it was great to see the boys turning things round and succeeding in winning in the end.

But I want to talk in the time that I have about the importance of physical education. Fitness, that is: fitness, and the need for everybody to keep fit, even though this can be difficult for a number of us. But we can always walk to places, for example, rather than using lifts. There is a lot of medical research work that has shown that keeping fit safeguards you from developing things such as dementia, reduces the rates of diabetes, high blood pressure and stroke, and so forth—a number of diseases that we’re battling to develop new medicines to treat. Yet, if you’re fit, you tend to suffer less from these diseases. If keeping fit were a tablet, then all of us would insist that NICE agree that doctors such as I should prescribe it. But keeping fit is much more effective than most tablets and medicines that we have at the moment to address dementia and stroke, and so forth.

Therefore, walking 10,000 steps every day is the thing—10,000 steps. It’s very easy to achieve, but it can be a challenge.

I don’t know whether I’ve mentioned yet that I’ve been a Member of this Assembly before. Some six years ago now, I had success in passing a Measure to safeguard our playing fields in Wales, and I was very grateful for support from every party at the time to safeguard the future of our playing fields to ensure that the next generation of Gareth Bales, and so forth, could have somewhere to play and run around, even in the centre of our cities.

And of course, to end now, as we’re all ageing, that speed that we had when we were young in playing rugby or football and so forth is starting to get deficient as we’re getting older, quite naturally. But there are other things that develop, such as walking football. It’s developing in a number of parts of Wales, and it’s important for those of us who are ageing and who can’t run around quite as fast as we could before. That, of course, is looking for support, like all other sporting activities.

In conclusion—the Assembly’s rugby team. There are a number of Members here who can play rugby for the Assembly. I will be making my pitch to be on the left wing again, for obvious reasons. But, of course, membership of that team is open to everybody, and I’m looking at my fellow Members also to develop that fitness, to become an integral part of the National Assembly for Wales’s rugby team. Thank you very much.

Suzy Davies (Conservative, South Wales West)

May I just begin today by putting on the record, I’m sure, the thanks of all of us to Professor Laura McAllister and to congratulate her on the honour she received in the birthday honours list just a few days ago?

Returning Members may remember in a debate in November 2014 that I shared my consternation at the revelation that I am considered now to be an older person. Perhaps the worst part of that awakening was the discovery that I am married to an older person as well. In fact, he’s so old that he too has a Clash T-shirt; it’s tucked away in his chest of drawers. It pre-dates the house that we moved into nearly 26 years ago by a significant number of years, but sadly there are no leather trousers to be found there—unlike, it sounds like, in Huw Irranca-Davies’s home.

Even older, though, are the shirts that he’s kept from his days as a player with the football and rugby clubs in mid Wales, from childhood through the youth teams and ultimately into adulthood. They’re not famous teams. Even now, there are parts of Wales where potentially elite talent slips through the net because it is difficult to develop elite talent in sparsely populated areas. It’s a 60-mile round trip to the nearest football academy from where my family lives, for example, and no public transport to speak of. Of course, if you’re able to make that trip, that could be followed by a round trip of nearly 200 miles to actually play a match. It’s a challenge for the players and their mam-and-dad taxis for players in somewhere like Bridgend in my region, where they go to Aberystwyth once a year. But for the players and the mam-and-dad taxis in Aberystwyth, those long journeys are weekly and talent gets lost as patience wears thin. If the next Sophie Ingle or the next Gareth Bale is from, let’s say, Cribyn or Llanbryn-mair, are we sure that we’re actually going to get to know about them?

My old man—I’m allowed to call him that now—however, is hooked on sport. He doesn’t just shout at the telly and engage the cat in amazing punditry from his armchair: until recently, he coached the town’s children and youth football teams and every week he joins a bunch of, well, I’m going to call them veterans, just to be kind, to play five-a-side football. He may have a season ticket to the local osteopath as a result of this, and many others who join him, but for him and those older men, this sport is not just about fitness; it’s the stress-busting; it’s the keeping up of long-held male friendships; it’s always the pub after the game; it’s kind of the men’s shed in a knock-off Barcelona strip. And so campaigns like ‘We Wear the Same Shirt’ have helped highlight the value of sport to male mental health in particular, but the principles of it apply also to older people. Public Health Wales have shown that the most sparsely populated counties in Wales are those inhabited by the largest proportion of older people, with isolation leading to loneliness and a decline in mental and physical health.

Now, my husband’s only in his fifties, but between one and three and one in five people over the age of 65 also claim to be hooked on sport. And as we heard from Russell George earlier on, the figures aren’t necessarily convincing on this, and I think there’s still a little bit of work to do on statistics so that we can be absolutely sure what the position actually is. I mean, I thought those figures sounded pretty high when I looked at them, even when you recognise that this includes bowls, swimming, using an exercise machine and golf. But, when you drill down a little further, it’s just 7 per cent of the over-65s who do sport or exercise twice a week, even though 18 per cent of them are members of sports clubs, and I think that’s pretty interesting. Over half of over-65s do no frequent sports or organised exercise, and the pattern sets in long before this with less than half of 55 to 64-year-olds doing any sport. Yet, over a third say that they do participate three times a week. It looks like it’s all or nothing, doesn’t it? Those hooked on it really seem to be hooked on it.

The Swansea half marathon is taking place on 26 June, and, while not everyone is from Wales in that, of course, you’d be surprised to hear how many older people took part in that last year. Out of 3,441 runners, 241 of them were men between the ages of 50 and 60, and 51 men over the age of 60. Forty women over the age of 45 took part too; that’s just under 10 per cent of those taking part being older people. The much lower figure for women participants is where I’m coming to just to finish this, because Sport Wales recognises that the value of sport goes beyond physical activity, and has a special value to women who are at risk of social exclusion. And it also claims that women are very good at responding to appropriate provision.

So, I’ll finish my contribution with this, Cabinet Secretary. I applaud all the work that’s happening on men’s mental health and the policymakers’ work that’s being done on encouraging young girls to take up sport, but how can we help women, and older women, at risk of becoming obese—women like me—overcome the bygone embarrassment of the old school gym and to become hooked on sport in later life, even if that is football?

Joyce Watson (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

I’d like to start by recognising the enormous achievement of the Welsh national football team in participating in Euro 2016 in France. And as everybody has said, it’s the first time that Wales has accomplished that in 58 years. And yes, the 2-1 win against Slovakia in their first game was impressive, and I couldn’t mention the game without also mentioning one player, Joe Allen from Haverfordwest.

But Wales’s success in sporting events over recent years has indeed already inspired people across the country to become more involved in sport. And it is already widely accepted that major sporting events can, and do, have the potential to boost public participation in sport, and also consequently to increase tourism. I’m not going to run through the list of things that Wales has been involved in because Russell George did that for me. But we do need to take advantage of the momentum that has been created from Wales’s participation in this Euro 2016, and the participation in and staging of those events that were previously mentioned. And we must encourage even more children, young people and adults to take up sport and to continue being active.

We must also reap both the health and the economic benefits that naturally flow on from that. But we must also leave an ongoing legacy for our elite athletes. That is, in any case, an extremely tall order. But it is the case that, since 2008, the active adults survey does demonstrate that 41 per cent of adults are now participating three times a week in some form of activity, and that was only 29 per cent in 2008. It is also the case that that increased activity, when attributed to young people, is even greater.

There is no doubt that we need to improve in some areas the participation in sport and we need to look at why some of those individuals and groups of people don’t actually participate in sport or have the opportunity to participate in sport as much as they could. But nonetheless, we have had improvements and some of those improvements are partly thanks to the Welsh Labour Government’s engagement in a range of work that promotes sport and physical activity. That has achieved improving access to opportunities, it has ensured that physical education meets the needs of our children and young people and it has also helped support community sport and physical activity.

But that is only part of the picture. I think that we can’t go through this debate today without recognising the huge contribution from the masses of volunteers—they were called by Suzy Davies mum-and-dad taxis—but nonetheless they are volunteers. They do actually help achieve a massive 235,000 volunteers right across Wales. It is the case that 10 hours or more a month are spent volunteering. That is an enormous contribution and one, I feel, worthy of stating here today. If we costed that contribution, it would come to £300 million or 15,000 full-time employees. So, that gives an idea of the scale of that contribution.

Moving on to the gaps in sport. I think we must pay attention to the fact that there is a gender gap; that girls seem to fall off as they get into young adulthood. It is the case that there are gaps, and some of them have been mentioned, where poorer children, disabled children and individuals also don’t participate as often as they could. Moving back to what Dai said at the very start, it is the case that if people stay fit, they stay healthy. And if they stay fit and they stay healthy, they don’t find themselves in need of the care. They don’t find themselves to be obese and consequently they don’t find themselves to have some of the diseases that we find so prevalent and so hard to do something about.

Angela Burns (Conservative, Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire)

Given my Welsh children, my Scottish husband and my English father, I’ve learnt to tread in a very inclusive manner around the subject of team sports. However, I think I can safely say that the performance of the Welsh team in France will be an inspiration to many young boys and girls and we need to ensure that this enthusiasm and interest is built upon and doesn’t go to waste. I think we could look at the success of the London Olympics, because certain sports there saw massive increase in participation in the year immediately following the games. Again, it’s important that we should note that, whilst this will dissipate over time, and although it goes back, there’s always an incremental increase that remains and it is worth using that as a lever to build on again and again.

Tennis is a perfect example of how sport harnesses the extra media coverage at certain times of the year, with tennis clubs generally seeing an increase in membership in the weeks immediately following the grass court championships at Wimbledon. More locally, in my particular constituency, events such as Ironman Wales and the Long Course Weekend provide an inspiration for people, and young people especially, to join up. My kids have entered into Ironkids this time and it’s not actually very easy at all. I’m not entirely sure I’d make it through Ironkids let alone Ironman itself.

It is depressing to see that the uptake of exercise remains inextricably linked to socio-economic factors and Joyce Watson touched upon this in some detail. It’s a fact of life that the lower down the socio-economic ladder you are, the harder it is for you to partake in sports. But there are inexpensive and highly effective opportunities that we can take advantage of. Things like parkruns are a very good example of how mass exercise can be done at very little cost. Minister, I’d like to understand what you feel the Welsh Government might be able to do to promote initiatives such as that.

My colleague Suzy Davies touched a little bit on children living in more deprived areas. I think that that is an extremely important area to start with, because, as we all know, whatever we learn in our childhood tends to go forward with us into older age. So, for me to suddenly take up taekwondo or whatever it’s called is highly unlikely and a very scary thought, to be truthful. However, if my 11-year-old were to take it up, that’s the kind of fitness regime that she will get used to and she will, as a 20-year-old, hopefully go to the gym and so on and so forth. So, if we can capture our young people at a very early age, we have a much better chance of being able to increase sport participation.

I think that Russell George touched on the fact that, actually, the amount of time given to sport in primary schools is dropping and dropping quite significantly. If we look at France, which is where the Welsh rugby team—football team; forgive me please, all those football people who love the beautiful game—. Where the Welsh football team currently are, in France, it is four hours per week for a primary school child. In Wales, they are lucky if they get a proper two. In Scandinavian countries, it’s four to five hours per week for sport, with a big emphasis on including everybody within the school in a sports activity at the weekend.

This does really hurt young people who live in rural communities where poverty can be very easily hidden. If you’re in a household that doesn’t have a great income and you only have one car and that one car is out working with one of the parents, you can only get the school bus into school and back out again; you don’t have the opportunity to stay behind and partake in team sports. You don’t have such a great opportunity at the weekend to go back, join the swimming club and do all the rest of it. So, if we really want to make a difference to our health as a nation, to the appalling statistics we have on obesity, on smoking, on the cancers that I spoke of earlier this afternoon with the Cabinet Secretary for health—in all of these rising rates that we have—. One in two people born after 1960 will have cancer. That is a horrifying statistic. The way to make the difference is to grab the young, engage them—don’t let anybody escape; don’t let them go and live in Angle and not be able to get out. Let’s find ways of bringing sport to young families, sport to young people, because, by doing that, we are going to not only protect them as individuals but take such an enormous burden off our country going forward. Public health is in quite a crisis. It needs a lot of money to try and sort it out. There’s not a lot, perhaps, that you can do for someone of my advanced age—I can tell you that now. But my children—my 11-year-old and my 13-year-old—they have a real chance. Put the money into the kids and really let’s try to get that grass-roots sport up and running. The benefits to our society are incalculable.

Gareth Bennett (UKIP, South Wales Central)

Yes, it’s a significant achievement that the Welsh football team has reached the European championship finals, as was noted in the Chamber last week as well. Yes, it would be nice to imagine that this sort of achievement in professional sport will trigger major increases in participation in amateur sport at youth and grass-roots levels. Unfortunately, this does not always prove to be the case. Much is made nowadays of what will be the legacy of a particular sporting event—for instance, London’s hosting of the 2012 Olympics. Unfortunately though, staging huge events such as the Olympics costs rather a lot of money, and the London boroughs afterwards found that their budgets for contributing to grass-roots sport were actually cut. So, it may be the case that, in reality, there is no real positive legacy from such an event. To protect and improve grass-roots sport, we should first recognise that investment in this area can be seen as leading to a long-term cost saving as healthy and sporting youngsters and young adults are much less likely to become unfit or obese adults later on in life. There could be major savings in future NHS bills in return for relatively small investments now.

Instead of cutting sports funding, we need to invest. Invest where, though? Well, we need to strengthen the place of physical education in schools, we need to enhance links between the schools and sports clubs; PE teachers should be encouraged to develop these links. There could be a programme of regular visits to school PE lessons from club coaches in each local authority area. Youngsters of varying abilities need to be encouraged to sign up to sports clubs, not just the elite, and grants to clubs could reflect this kind of sporting diversity.

Angela just mentioned the issue of parkruns. This has cropped up recently in the national press. I believe there were parkruns organised in Hampstead Heath and possibly other parks in London, and there was an issue that they may be charged by local councils—the people organising the parkruns—for the use of the public parklands, which, to me, seems entirely ludicrous. And that’s a path that we need to make sure we don’t follow in Wales. We should be encouraging this kind of voluntary activity that could get lots of people who are not particularly sporting—it could get them involved in sport, because it is a mass participation event. You don’t have to be that good to go to a parkrun; there will be people just as slow as you if you’re one of the slowest. So, we need to encourage that kind of activity, as Angela suggested.

Finally, there are many young adults in Wales who have graduated in sports science in recent years who are not employed in this field. Their talents and enthusiasm for sport need to be harnessed and we need to think constructively about how we can best invest to utilise this latent talent pool.