Senedd Cymru (Welsh Parliament), 13 July 2016

294 contributions from 48 members. The official report.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

I call the National Assembly to order.

1. 1. Questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Economy and Infrastructure

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The first item on the agenda this afternoon is questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Economy and Infrastructure, and the first question is tabled in the name of Jeremy Miles.

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

1. Will the Minister provide an update in relation to Creative Wales? OAQ(5)0035(EI)

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Yes. Thank you. Work is under way to set up Creative Wales, a body that will back home-grown talent in the creative industries. The success story of the creative industries in Wales is one we want to build on, and we are establishing this new body to drive further growth in the sector.

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Thank you for that answer, Cabinet Secretary. The creative industries is one of the fastest-growing sectors in the Welsh economy and has seen a massive increase in employment. Will he indicate whether, and, if so, how, Brexit is likely to affect the Welsh Government’s ongoing commitment to its media investment fund and other production incentives? And will he undertake to work with the UK Government to assess the effect of Brexit on the film and television co-production treaties that allow a producer in one European Union country to access production incentives in other EU countries, and put in place arrangements to prevent the loss of that opportunity to the Welsh economy?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Yes, indeed I will. And the Welsh Government’s ongoing commitment to the media investment fund, and to Pinewood, I’m pleased to say, will not be affected by the EU referendum result. Now, my Creative Europe team is already in discussions with the UK Government and major production houses to maximise the opportunities and to minimise the challenges that leaving the EU creates. Wales has targeted American production houses, and we need to minimise the impact of leaving the EU on the flow of international talent. But also, we need to take advantage of the strong value of the dollar against the pound.

Suzy Davies (Conservative, South Wales West)

Cabinet Secretary, the arts and creative industries can act as an important driver for thinking differently about solving problems in our communities, and the Art Across the City LOCWS programme in Swansea is a perfect example for regeneration. How does Creative Wales help meet the objectives defined in the Kay Andrews report, especially bringing creatives, public bodies, and communities, closer together to tackle a range of socioeconomic problems? And could it be used to pilot Arts on Prescription, for example?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Yes, absolutely, and the Welsh Labour manifesto did indeed contain a pledge to do exactly that, through the form of a social prescription, alongside the establishment of a Wales well-being bond that seeks to direct funding to those activities that prevent ill-health and help treat people who are suffering particularly mild forms of mental illness. Now, it’s my belief, with regard to the pioneer projects and the work that the Member references that is being recommended by Baroness Kay Andrews, in the form of the pioneer area of work and the Fusion project, that there is a natural link between the creative industries and the arts not just here in Wales, but right across Europe we have good examples of how they interlink and weave together. And I believe that they fully benefit, jointly, from the approach to their development and to the creation of Creative Wales.

Now, my current remit letter to the Arts Council of Wales fully recognises the symbiotic relationship that the arts and the creative industries have, and it commits the Welsh Government and the Arts Council of Wales to develop this area together. I’m also pleased to be able to inform the Member that Dr Phil George, the new Chair of the Arts Council of Wales, has a background in both the creative industries and the arts, and is well positioned, I believe, to drive this agenda forward alongside Welsh Government and the new body, Creative Wales.

Russell George (Conservative, Montgomeryshire)

2. Will the Minister outline the financial support available for tourism projects in mid Wales? OAQ(5)0027(EI)

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Yes. We operate three main schemes to support tourism projects: the tourism investment support scheme, otherwise known as TIS; the regional tourism engagement fund; and a tourism product innovation fund. These are pan-Wales schemes. The Welsh Government also looks to access various EU funding streams available to support tourism in Wales.

Russell George (Conservative, Montgomeryshire)

Thank you for your answer, Cabinet Secretary. The heritage hub for mid Wales project is an exciting new project in Newtown, which aims to forge a brand identity for mid Wales, through the exploitation of digital technology and the promotion of our culture, including paying tribute to the iconic social reformer, Robert Owen, famous to Newtown. Now, they’ve also promoted the project with Visit Wales, as part of the 2017 marketing campaign, the Year of Legends. Will you join me in lending your support for this project, and outline what assistance the Welsh Government can specifically provide to obtaining funding for this project in Newtown?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

This is an excellent project that the Member highlights, and it fits well with the project that the Welsh Government is undertaking through Visit Wales to promote our heritage. The Member will be aware of the Cadw sites that were illuminated in red during the course of the European tournament recently, and we are keen to ensure that heritage is at the centre of our offer for visitors to Wales. In terms of the funding that may be available, it’s entirely possible, given the strong link to the Year of Legends—and I wouldn’t want to prejudge any application—that they’d wish to look to apply during next year’s round of funding, during 2017, for a grant through the tourism product innovation fund. I’ve been quite clear to applicants that I’d like to see far more innovation and creativity come forward in the form of applications for that type of funding, and I’d very much welcome one from the organisation the Member raises.

Dawn Bowden (Labour, Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney)

I actually think the Cabinet Secretary has just answered my question as well, but let me just go through it anyway. You’ll recall that I’ve previously raised the issue in this Chamber about the tourism industry in Wales, and our social and historical heritage—the industrial heritage particularly in constituencies like mine. And, so, I was pleased to learn about the Welsh Government’s announcement last year that the tourism marketing campaign for 2017 would celebrate the Year of Legends. As part of that campaign, tourism providers are being encouraged to create or to theme products or experiences, as I understand it, using Welsh legends as the inspiration, including our historic heroes. In my view, one such hero is Dic Penderyn, one of the leaders of the Merthyr rising in 1831, and the funding made available to support the Year of Legends initiative could potentially support a campaign in my constituency to have something like a statue erected to commemorate Dic Penderyn.

Now, the Welsh Government’s statement in April refers to funding being made available through the regional tourism engagement fund and the tourism product innovation fund, but the websites are now showing that the funds for applications are now closed for 2016-17. So, can the Minister confirm that funds will still be available to support initiatives under the Year of Legends marketing campaign and advise on what the source of that funding might be?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Yes. As I mentioned to Suzy Davies, there will be available funds for the next financial year, which will be available during 2017. The project that the Member raises today sounds a very innovative one; it’s something that I’m sure the destination manager—. I would advise the organisation that’s behind the initiative to actually make contact with their destination manager, because they’ll be able to give advice on how to promote the project right across the region.

In addition to the tourism product innovation fund, the Member highlighted the availability of resources through the regional tourism engagement fund, and, again, that’s something that the destination manager in the region will be able to advise on. And, there is also the possibility perhaps of liaising with the Arts Council of Wales to see whether that specific project might attract public art finance from the arts council.

Finally, going forward, we had a pledge in our manifesto to create a challenge fund for community arts and community sport, and I imagine this sort of project, where you’re able to generate interest and generate crowd-funded resources, would be suitable for match funding through the challenge fund.

Simon Thomas (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

To return to Newtown, another important part of the heritage of Newtown in Powys is the Montgomery canal. The First Minister said yesterday that canals are seen by the Welsh Government as part of our tourism offer, and, as there is a proposal by the people of Newtown to restore the old canal that runs through the town and which is part of the industrial history and heritage of Wales, of course, what assistance can the Welsh Government offer, given that this scheme was originally going to approach European funds?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

The Member’s absolutely right; canals are vital for the tourism industry in Wales. I know that because the busiest of all canals in Britain runs through my own constituency—the Llangollen canal. And they are particularly attractive to foreign visitors, and we now have a record number of foreign visitors coming to Wales, spending a record amount here. I’d like that to continue. The point that the Member raises is an important one for mid Wales, and it’s one that Russell George has raised in the past. I met with the organisation that is looking to restore the canal. We’ve recently received details of the project, and I have asked officials to arrange a meeting with the local town council to establish the latest position with regard to the promotion and restoration of the canals in mid Wales.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

We now move to the party spokespeople and, first this week, I ask the Conservative spokesperson, Russell George, to ask his question.

Russell George (Conservative, Montgomeryshire)

Thank you, Presiding Officer. Cabinet Secretary, I’d like to question you on the Welsh Government’s support for small businesses and, in doing so, I also declare that I’m an owner of a small business myself. Small businesses in England will benefit from a number of key priority changes that the UK Government has brought forward in its 2016 budget in order to assists small and medium-sized enterprises. This includes small business rate relief for businesses with a rateable value of between £6,000 and £15,000. Numerous businesses have contacted me in recent weeks concerned that the schemes that were available in the past few years have not been available in this financial year. Can I ask you, therefore, whether you will commit to replicating the UK Government’s policy to support small businesses in Wales and outline a timetable for reform to business rate relief?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

This is an issue that I am working on principally with the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Local Government, who is responsible for local taxes. It’s important that we continue to support indigenous businesses in every way that we possibly can, including through tax cuts. My party had a pledge to ensure that there are tax cuts for small businesses in Wales; we intend to carry through that pledge.

Russell George (Conservative, Montgomeryshire)

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary, for that. You have rightly outlined your manifesto commitment to cut taxes for small businesses. Could I ask you how you would do that for small businesses that currently don’t pay business rates? How are you going to cut taxes for those small businesses?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

If they’re not paying taxes at the moment, they wouldn’t benefit from a tax cut, so it’s only for those businesses that are currently paying tax—they will experience that tax cut. Those that don’t pay tax at the moment will continue not to pay tax.

Russell George (Conservative, Montgomeryshire)

My question was in regard to the fact that there are a number of taxes that small businesses would pay and, clearly, as it was a Welsh Labour manifesto commitment to cut tax for small businesses, if they’re not paying business rates, then obviously that manifesto commitment will cut taxes in other areas.

The Development Bank for Wales is also designed to address the growing bank funding gap between SMEs looking to expand. I would like to ask you, Cabinet Secretary, to provide some details on the next steps for the development bank. There is some concern that interest rates will be punitive if the bank is to be self-financing. So, perhaps you could outline how the bank will work in practice and how it will be different from Finance Wales—whether it will just provide tailored business support as well as a source of funding.

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Yes, it will provide that tailored business support that the Member talks about in addition to funding. Our preferred option is a hybrid model that seeks to lever in additional investment and to work in partnership with other stakeholders. I am pleased to be able to tell the Member today that Finance Wales is committed to submitting a fully costed business plan for the development bank to consider prior to recess. I expect that plan to be with me by the end of this week.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The UKIP spokesperson, David Rowlands.

David Rowlands (UKIP, South Wales East)

Diolch, Lywydd. Can I rather belatedly congratulate the Cabinet Secretary on his appointment to what is a very comprehensive portfolio? I’m sure he’ll prove as competent in handling it as he has in his previous roles. I look forward to working in a constructive manner with him as UKIP’s member on the Economy, Infrastructure and Skills Committee.

The matter that gives rise to my question is one that I’m sure has been raised a number of times, but I make no apologies for raising it again and will continue to do so until the matter has some kind of resolution. I refer to the Ebbw Vale to Cardiff line, which still has no link into Newport. Can the Cabinet Secretary update us on the latest situation with regard to this very important part of the south-east Wales infrastructure?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Can I thank the Member for his very kind, genuine and sincere comments and offer my congratulations to him on his election and his appointment as a spokesperson? I don’t have the details to hand today on that particular piece of infrastructure, but I would be pleased to be able to submit information to all Members in the form of a written statement.

David Rowlands (UKIP, South Wales East)

Fine. As you haven’t been able to give me an answer on that, can I say that it slightly alters what I’m going to say now? But there is a suggested alternative to the difficulty of constructing a turn-back facility at Newport, which appears to be a major stumbling block, which under the present circumstances will require extensive structural changes. The alternative compromise is that the train would carry on to Abergavenny, where construction of this turn-back facility would be far more affordable. This would only require some signalling alterations and, of course, timetable changes. Could the Cabinet Secretary inform us as to whether this strategy has been fully explored?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Well, I’m pragmatic in terms of how we solve transport problems in our communities. Perhaps it would be beneficial if I was to visit the site with the Member to discuss and explore the options that he presents today. If it emerges that that is a more cost-effective solution and one that can be delivered rapidly, then I would happily consider it.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Adam Price.

Adam Price (Plaid Cymru, Carmarthen East and Dinefwr)

The Cabinet Secretary has already said that securing inward investment and higher exports for Wales is going to be more challenging, at least in the short term, as a result of the referendum result. He’s referred to the need for confidence-building measures and has announced a new export initiative. Now, that export initiative, as I understand it, is going to be delivered essentially by the civil service, and I have to say that doesn’t build my confidence. So, can I ask the Cabinet Secretary if he can name a single European country, apart from Wales, that doesn’t have its own dedicated trade and investment body?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Well, I would have thought the Member would appreciate that sometimes having Welsh solutions for Welsh problems is something that the people of Wales would be proud of. The fact of the matter is that, up to Brexit, exports from Wales are something that we should be proud of. We’ve been able to assist numerous companies in breaking through into new markets. We are determined to ensure that that continues. We’ll be investing more heavily in accessing new markets and in introducing Welsh businesses to the possibility of exporting right across the globe. We are going to be targeting specific areas where we also have contacts abroad, and I’m confident that we will be able to take advantage, in the short term at least, of currency fluctuations to be able to deliver economic growth in those areas where exports can be delivered in a very strong and robust way.

Adam Price (Plaid Cymru, Carmarthen East and Dinefwr)

Maybe I can help the Cabinet Secretary out. There is only one other European country that lacks a dedicated trade and investment agency, and that’s the Ukraine. To be fair to them, they are a country currently under military occupation. The reason that countries have dedicated agencies is that they work. The World Bank says that. The OECD says that. All the published evidence says that. Now, there are certain people who say, of course, that we shouldn’t listen to experts, and that we shouldn’t focus on facts. I’m sure he doesn’t agree with that. Countries with dedicated investment agencies attract two and a half times the level of inward investment compared to those without, and that’s borne out, actually, by the Welsh Government’s own statistics. Our share of inward investment jobs is 50 per cent lower now than it was under the WDA. So, as part of his new economic strategy, can he say that his mind is open, that he will look at the evidence, and that he’s interested in hearing the views of key stakeholders as to whether Wales should now create a dedicated trade and investment body?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

I am principled, but I am also pragmatic. I remain open-minded, and as I’ve said on numerous occasions, I don’t have a monopoly on wisdom. I do listen to experts, and I do have an open mind on this issue.

Adam Price (Plaid Cymru, Carmarthen East and Dinefwr)

I’m grateful to the Cabinet Secretary for placing that on the record. Following on from the question from Russell George, the Welsh Government, in response to the feasibility study in 2015 on the development bank, said that its preferred approach was one that specifically prescribed a management and organisational structure different to that currently managed by Finance Wales, i.e. not Finance Wales. And yet, speaking at the Cardiff Breakfast Club last week, Giles Thorley, the CEO of Finance Wales, said, ‘Let me let you into a secret; in almost every definition, Finance Wales is already a development bank.’

Since that directly contradicts his own Government’s report and his own Government’s policy, what confidence can we have, in asking Finance Wales to draw up a business plan for a development bank that was meant to replace it, that this isn’t just a very elaborate and expensive rebranding exercise?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

No, the development bank for Wales will have access to far more resources to be able to then pass on and to lend to businesses across Wales. I have every confidence in Giles Thorley and also in Gareth Bullock to deliver a bank that offers not just more lending, but also offers bespoke, tailored advice to the business community, which is what they’ve called for for many years.

Neil McEvoy (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

3. Will the Minister make a statement on the effectiveness of the Welsh Government’s engagement with indigenous SMEs? OAQ(5)0034(EI)

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Yes. We continue to support indigenous businesses and have a record number of active enterprises headquartered in Wales. In 2015-16, we supported over 40,000 jobs in all sizes of businesses here in Wales, which included 5,000 jobs created and safeguarded through our Business Wales service.

Neil McEvoy (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

Okay, thanks. In terms of engagement, what I’m really talking about is communication. There was a city deal conference last week, with dozens of Assembly officials and over 200 delegates, but there was only one person from a small business. So, I think that needs to be addressed. So, what will you do to ensure, in particular with reference to the city deal, that SMEs will be included and will be listened to?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Well, SMEs are always listened to and are always included where we are involved in events and activities. We have a very, very good working relationship with the Federation of Small Businesses. I note that the Member refers to the event that he was at last week. I’m sure that he has now received a letter that outlines that it was an untrue statement that he made in Plenary last week to the First Minister—

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Excuse me; you cannot make a claim that a Member made an untrue statement in this Plenary.

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

I’ll retract that statement.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Thank you.

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

I’ll instead refer to the letter that the Member received that highlighted how much support Welsh Government gives to small businesses right across Wales and that this Government is business friendly.

Nick Ramsay (Conservative, Monmouth)

Cabinet Secretary, can you update us on the ability of Welsh SMEs to take part in projects procured by the Welsh Government? I had a discussion in relation to this with NPS engineering consultants, an engineering firm based in Chepstow in my constituency, just before the election. That firm had, worryingly, given up on trying to procure Welsh Government contracts, because, despite the clarity of the process, which they did actually commend the Welsh Government on, there wasn’t sufficient weighting given to locally grown Welsh firms. As a result, the larger firms are undercutting them and getting contracts, even though the smaller firms think that, in the longer term, those contracts will be more expensive. The local firm in question has no problem procuring contracts across the border, from Hereford and Worcestershire councils, for instance. This can’t be right. Is there some way you can look, along with the Welsh Government Cabinet Secretary with responsibility for procurement, at ways that we can create a more level playing field so that Welsh SMEs, indigenous businesses, find it easier to complete?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Yes, absolutely, and perhaps the local firm that the Member refers to is a firm that he and I could visit together to discuss the problems that they’ve encountered and the solutions that we might be able to present. In terms of the Welsh Government’s procurement portal, Sell2Wales, it was set up to help businesses win contracts in the public sector. Since June 2013, almost 14,000 notices have been published on Sell2Wales, and approximately 61 per cent of contracts have been awarded to Welsh businesses. Nonetheless, I believe there is work to be done to ensure that procurement benefits all businesses right across Wales, and I’d be more than happy to visit the company that the Member has been contacted by.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Could I draw the Cabinet Secretary’s attention to a company in my constituency, the national-award-winning Sony Pencoed factory, and not only to that, but to the 30-and-more indigenous companies that have spun off from the Sony excellence in design to manufacturing on that site and the Sony Pencoed UK technology centre? It really is a case of developing our home-grown talent here in Wales—companies like Mesuro Ltd, which I visited a couple of months ago, which is a spin-off of Cardiff University’s world renowned centre for high-frequency engineering, or Wales Interactive Ltd, a developer and publisher of interactive entertainment products for a global, worldwide market, and many, many others. So, I would welcome the Cabinet Secretary, at some time in his busy schedule in the near future, to see the excellent work from Sony, and from all those companies that have spun off from that base on the site, but also to see the way in which established, award-winning companies with a track record in design to manufacturing can fuel a growth in indigenous companies in a range of sectors. It really is a classic case of together stronger. So perhaps I could invite him to come and discuss this highly successful model for business incubation.

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

I’d be delighted to do that. It sounds like this is an exceptional cluster of economic activity in your constituency. I think it would also be helpful if we invited those companies to contribute to the development of the new economic strategy.

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

4. How is the Welsh Government encouraging economic development in North Wales? OAQ(5)0023(EI)

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

We are taking several wide-ranging actions to encourage economic development across all parts of Wales. In north Wales, we are exploiting the significant opportunities that will arise from investment projects such as Wylfa Newydd, providing support through our dedicated business support service and investing in various transport schemes.

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

Thank you. Well, as you know, in this morning’s Economy, Infrastructure and Skills Committee you made reference to mainline electrification, to proposals for a north Wales metro, and to investment in the A55. You also said a growth deal bid for north Wales needs to be submitted by end of this month. Given my understanding that the UK Government is offering additional funding, and that line improvement and signalling improvement are seen as building blocks to electrification, which will be accelerated by the growth deal, are you able to tell us what dialogue you have had thus far with UK Government? I know, or I believe, you’ve been speaking at least to the Under-Secretary of State to this end—to what extent that might involve the devolution of economic and growth levers. It was my understanding that that was something sought by the UK Government.

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Yes, I’ve discussed this matter not just with the Under-Secretary of State, but I was actually discussing it as well with the Secretary of State himself on Sunday. We very much hope that the growth deal bid will be submitted in full as a proposal to the Chancellor of the Exchequer by the end of this month. I would also hope that the business case for electrification of the main line in the next control period will be approved. It’s essential in the development of a growth deal for north Wales that we are able to work locally with local authorities, with the Mersey Dee Alliance, with the North Wales Economic Ambition Board, with the UK Government Ministers, and also to look at—and I’m on record as saying this—the potential of a cross-border economic strategy, with a cross-border economic unit to ensure that we deliver maximum growth in that area of Wales.

Hannah Blythyn (Labour, Delyn)

Tourism is a vital sector in the economic development of north Wales, and with that I welcome this Government’s commitment to create an A55 culture corridor linking attractions across the region. Flint castle was certainly a major attraction this last weekend, as a dragon descended on the outer bailey of the castle drawing in visitor numbers in their thousands. It was really brilliant to see just how many people went down there to see the dragon, to take the odd selfie and, for the more intrepid wannabe dragon tamers amongst us, actually scale the dragon’s back. I look forward to building on that buzz now with the further investment into ‘Shakespeare’s castle’, but Cabinet Secretary, do you agree with me on the value of the visitor economy to Delyn and across north-east Wales, and will you work to continue to invest in innovative ideas at visitor attractions that boost our communities and also draw tourists to north-east Wales?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Can I thank the Member for her question? I’m delighted that the dragon, the Caerphilly dragon, was received so well in Delyn and at Flint castle. The pictures that I’ve seen show that many, many visitors, particularly young visitors, thoroughly enjoyed seeing the red dragon there. At this time of the year, when we’re celebrating an incredible performance by our national football squad, it’s a particularly appropriate time for the dragon to visit Flint last weekend.

I’m pleased to be able to say that we will be investing in a new visitor centre at Flint castle, and Flint castle will benefit from a world-class installation, which is part and parcel of a national competition that’s taking place as part of the Year of Legends.

Llyr Gruffydd (Plaid Cymru, North Wales)

Do you recognise, Secretary, the need to develop north Wales as an economic powerhouse in its own right? Clearly, it’s important that we get every possible economic benefit from neighbouring developments such as the Northern Powerhouse by the UK Government, but of course there is concern with the city region developments in south Wales, and the Northern Powerhouse in England, that north Wales could fall between two stools. So, my question is essentially this: how do we ensure growth for the indigenous economic powerhouse of north Wales, rather than just relying on other areas?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Well, it’s my view that we in north Wales—and I speak as someone who was born there, grew up there and who lives there—has as much to offer the Northern Powerhouse as the Northern Powerhouse has to offer north Wales. We have a good deal to contribute. It’s predicted that up to 70,000 jobs can be created in the next two decades in north Wales. I’m confident that that can be achieved through a greater degree of cross-border collaboration. I do not see cross-border collaboration in any way, shape or form as a threat to the culture or the language of Wales. Particularly for north Wales, I think that by being closer together, by working closer together, we can create more jobs, more opportunities.

At the moment, the region contributes something in the region of £35 billion to the UK economy. The growth potential is enormous, but we also should recognise that if we are not part of a cross-border alliance then there is a risk that with the city deals, with the momentum that is behind the Liverpool city region, Manchester city region and the Cheshire and Warrington local enterprise partnership, that we could end up in competition with those cities and those county areas. We would not wish that to happen if, instead, we can collaborate and offer a regional economy where we are all offering something that’s complementary.

Twenty thousand people each day cross the border from Wales into England. Twenty thousand people cross the border from England into Wales. As far as people who are accessing jobs are concerned, the border doesn’t exist. So, what we need to do is ensure that growth on both sides of the border benefits both sides in terms of the people who live there.

Michelle Brown (UKIP, North Wales)

Wales has the opportunity at the moment to attract investment from England by providing a more favourable place to set up a business, which would bring desperately needed jobs into Wales. I’m sure everybody will agree with me that the more businesses we can attract here and the more jobs that are created the better. The present business rates regime hampers the creation of new businesses since it saddles a business with a large payment right at the beginning, before even that business has dealt with a single customer. Does the Welsh Government have any proposals to support new and small businesses via, perhaps, restructuring the business rates regime so that businesses are charged on the basis of profit or turnover, as opposed to the nominal value of the property they occupy?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

This is a point of ongoing consideration by the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Local Government, but the Member is right, we should use every lever at our disposal to attract investors to Wales. Last year, we recorded the second highest level of inward investment here. That’s something that, again, we want to make sure that we maintain. In terms of financial support to businesses, we have the Wales microbusiness loan fund, which amounts to £6 million. We have got the Wales technology venture investment fund and we also have £21 million of new finance to help small and medium-term enterprises grow in Wales, which can be accessed through two Finance Wales funds. We also, of course, have the £5 million repayable fund for SMEs. We’re keen to attract not just inward investment, but to ensure that our existing companies grow and prosper in Wales, and to ensure that we have entrepreneurs who have access to the resources, the advice and the opportunities to set up business here in Wales in the communities in which they’ve grown up so that they don’t need to leave Wales.

Lynne Neagle (Labour, Torfaen)

5. Will the Minister make a statement on Welsh Government policies to support manufacturing? OAQ(5)0029(EI)

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Yes. Manufacturing in Wales is vitally important to the Welsh economy. We offer a wide range of support to the industry, including help and advice on areas such as international trade, research, development and innovation, improving workforce skills, finding new business premises, e-business support and tendering for public sector contracts.

Lynne Neagle (Labour, Torfaen)

Thank you for that answer. As you’ve highlighted, manufacturing remains a vital sector in the Welsh economy, particularly in the Valleys. However, despite the best efforts of the Welsh Government, the sector continues to shrink in terms of its relative importance to other sectors in the economy. Given the very serious new challenges that Brexit will pose to manufacturing, would you agree with me that it would be timely for Welsh Government to review the performance and prospects for Welsh manufacturing and to develop a manufacturing strategy for Wales to meet these challenges?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

I think the time is right, given the vote that’s taken place, for the development of a new economic strategy that takes account of the fact that we’ll be leaving Europe, but also ensures that manufacturing grows and prospers in the future. The Member is right in her analysis that manufacturing is a shrinking sector across the UK. But, here in Wales, it still accounts for 11.3 per cent of all workforce jobs in the country, compared to 7.8 per cent in the UK as a whole. So, it’s a crucially important area of work, a crucially important part of the Welsh economy. We also know that jobs in manufacturing—and this is very significant—in Wales rose 6.3 per cent last year. That sort of progress is something that we should be proud of and that we should be seeking to build upon. Some 165,000 people now, in Wales, are employed in manufacturing as a whole, and that is something that we will be building on by attracting companies such as Aston Martin and TVR to our country.

Mohammad Asghar (Conservative, South Wales East)

According to the Business Wales website, Ebbw Vale enterprise zone has ambitions to become a vibrant, high-technology hotspot for manufacturing companies of all sizes. However, between 2011 and 14, only 172 jobs were created at this enterprise zone. Last year, only eight jobs were created there. Cabinet Secretary, what is the Welsh Government doing to promote and to support Ebbw Vale enterprise zone to encourage companies to set up and to create manufacturing jobs there?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

There are various ways and means of promoting enterprise zones. They have budgets, not least to promote themselves, to market themselves and the services and the benefits of investors locating within them. The Member may be aware that we will be publishing data on enterprise zone performance very shortly, and the Member may wish to take note of the figures for the latest year.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

David Rowlands.

David Rowlands (UKIP, South Wales East)

I’m sorry, Presiding Officer; I only have a secondary question.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

It’s okay.

David Rowlands (UKIP, South Wales East)

I do apologise for that.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Question 6—Lynne Neagle.

Lynne Neagle (Labour, Torfaen)

6. Will the Minister make a statement on the outcome of the industrial dispute between PCS and National Museum Wales? OAQ(5)0030(EI)

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Yes. I am pleased that this long-running pay dispute has now been resolved and that all national museum sites have reopened to the public.

Lynne Neagle (Labour, Torfaen)

Thank you, and I’m sure other Members in this Chamber were, like me, very pleased to welcome the resolution of the long-running dispute, and I’m very grateful to you, Cabinet Secretary, for your efforts to bring this dispute to an end. I would also like to pay tribute to all the museum workers who stood their ground on the issue of fairness to the lowest paid, especially the staff in my constituency at Big Pit, for their commitment, and I’m absolutely delighted to see Big Pit up and running again. Cabinet Secretary, will you join me in recognising the dedication of all the staff at the museum, and will you continue to emphasise in your discussions with museum management the necessity of working in partnership with staff when introducing future changes?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Yes, absolutely, and can I first of all put on record my thanks to the local Member for her relentless and her resolute support for the loyal and dedicated workers that she refers to? The outcome of the PCS ballot and resolution of the pay dispute was publicly confirmed on 24 June. I’m pleased that 78 per cent of PCS members voted to accept the enhanced offer made by the national museum. I’m pleased that the Welsh Government was able to assist in bringing it to a satisfactory conclusion.

Now, I am sure that there are lessons that are to be learned from this experience, and I did meet with the national museum’s president and director general recently. I have no doubt that any issues that have been identified will now be taken forward by management at the museum and by PCS, and I am aware that the museum is now working to implement the pay award and compensation payment to eligible individuals in this month’s payroll. I now encourage the national museum and the unions to work to rebuild the bridges that have been damaged and to develop a more positive relationship for the future—one in which all workers have confidence that their concerns are being listened to.

Bethan Sayed (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

I was involved with the dispute from the start, and what I’d like to ask you, Minister, is whether you think that this could have been resolved sooner had you, as Minister, intervened sooner, to make sure that this wasn’t a two-year dispute? Also, I would like to hear your answer with regard to what management has told me: that continuous in-year cuts did not aid them in the situation with the staff at the museum. Will you commit, therefore, to not putting forward more in-year cuts to services that are now scraping the barrel and are vital in terms of promoting Wales to the outside world? I think it’s key now that you learn, as a Government, and learn with the management how to treat people with respect, because the PCS union went above and beyond what they should have done in this regard.

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Can I thank the Member for her question, and just remind her that this Government itself has faced the deepest cuts to its budgets in recent years imaginable? No area of my portfolio has been immune, I’m afraid, from having to make difficult decisions and implement budget cuts, with one exception—the Welsh Books Council, where there was an overwhelming feeling that a reduction in their budget would lead to a significant loss of jobs. The Member may also be interested to know that in Scotland, the dispute went on for more than four years. Here in Wales, the First Minister said that the priority of the incoming Minister would be to resolve this dispute within three weeks. I had it resolved. That’s something that I would like to thank union members for working towards. I’d like to thank Members of all parties in this Chamber for contributing to it. It’s something that I think we can now move on from, and I am sure that the museum has a very bright future. I’ll be considering the Randerson report, which offers a road map towards a very secure and sustainable heritage sector, one that is more closely aligned with the tourism offer across Wales and one that brings together those key elements of our heritage in Wales.

Mohammad Asghar (Conservative, South Wales East)

During the recent dispute, the PCS union declared they had no confidence in the management of National Museum Wales. It was also claimed that a survey taken last year showed that 22 per cent of workers had been bullied or harassed at work. Does the Cabinet Secretary have confidence in the management of National Museum Wales, and what action will he take to reconcile both sides around the core aims of this organisation? This sort of thing should never, ever happen again in any organisation of your department. Thank you.

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

I’d like to say that the Member is absolutely right on this issue. I have been clear with the director general and the president of the museum that the results of that survey must be addressed, and that I expect to see a report on how the issues raised by the workforce are being addressed. I’ve also been clear that the workers at the museum—the people who ensure that visitors have the best experience possible—are better represented at the most senior level. That includes representation at boards of trustee meetings. I think it’s essential that employees are represented and heard and taken notice of.

Dawn Bowden (Labour, Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney)

7. Will the Minister make a statement on the opportunities that the Wales Bill could open up for integrating public transport systems in the south east Wales valleys? OAQ(5)0033(EI)

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Yes. The Wales Bill, currently proceeding through Parliament, will confer new powers on the field of transport, which will complement the existing powers we already have, to deliver an integrated transport system across Wales.

Dawn Bowden (Labour, Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney)

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary, and we’re all acutely aware, clearly, of the benefits that the city deal and the south-east Wales metro would bring to the Valleys areas of Wales. The risks to that development following Brexit we’ve rehearsed ad infinitum in the Chamber, so I’m not going to dwell on those. However, we have welcomed in this Chamber the announcement of the formation of the ministerial Valleys taskforce, a key component of which is building stronger transport links. Despite the existence of local transport plans, which sometimes seem to be limited in vision to individual local authority areas, bus transport across the Valleys remains an issue. I was given an example the other day where to get to Aberdare from New Tredegar, the bus journey would take more than two hours and takes you via Pontypridd. Would the Cabinet Secretary agree with me that any opportunity to reregulate bus services in Wales arising from the Wales Bill would provide a golden opportunity to ensure that, as new employment opportunities are created in the south-east Wales Valleys, those who only have access to public transport are not excluded from seeking to take up such opportunities because of poor, slow and infrequent bus services?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Yes, I would, and I’d like to thank the Member for raising this important issue, and perhaps invite her to write to me formally regarding the bus service from Tredegar to Aberdare, which I’d like to take a closer look at, if I may, and perhaps make representations on behalf of her constituents. Further devolution in respect of the traffic commissioner’s functions over bus registration will give us the opportunity to consider changing how bus services are delivered right across the country for the future, and to ensure that services are designed to meet the needs of passengers in accessing employment opportunities in the key services. We’re also facilitating quality bus partnerships. We are growing our TrawsCymru service, and we are ensuring that our funding is directly linked to improving quality through the introduction of quality standards as of next year.

Jayne Bryant (Labour, Newport West)

8. Will the Minister make a statement on the Welsh Government’s strategy to attract visitors to Wales? OAQ(5)0028(EI)

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Yes. It is now three years since the launch of ‘The Welsh Government Strategy for Tourism 2013-2020 Partnership for Growth’. This sets a 10 per cent growth in real terms in respect of overnight visitor expenditure in Wales by 2020, and we are on track to exceed that growth.

Jayne Bryant (Labour, Newport West)

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. The ‘Wish You Were Here’ study found that music tourism from festivals and concerts generates up to £113 million annually for the Welsh economy. Our ability to attract more events, conferences and festivals will be boosted by the international convention centre, built as a joint project between the Celtic Manor and Welsh Government, when it opens in Newport. Designed to attract major events from across the world, it will rival any convention centre in Europe. Smaller festivals, which are a mix of music, art, literature and comedy, like the one in my own constituency in Caerleon, also play an important role. What support and encouragement can the Welsh Government give to attract large-scale events to Wales while also supporting grass-roots festivals that add to the rich variety of our cultural life?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Yes, this is a very interesting area of work. I actually asked my officials to carry out some research concerning the most inclusive forms of artistic activities and it was found that smaller festivals and musical concerts are actually the activities, the events, that people are most likely to go to from right across the socioeconomic spectrum. So, I’m very keen to ensure that we do maximise opportunities for local community festivals and concerts to grow. We’re committed to attracting more major international sporting and cultural events to Wales, especially those that help to maximise the return on investment in existing and in planned facilities. We’re particularly keen to attract those events that offer an opportunity to volunteers to become participants. In the coming years, with our support, Wales will host some of the world’s biggest and most prestigious events, such as the Champions League final and the Volvo Ocean Race. Alongside these global brands, we’re also supporting a thriving portfolio of local and regional cultural events and festivals, such as the Machynlleth Comedy Festival, the Good Life Experience, the Iris Prize and Focus Wales and also, of course, RawFfest.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

And finally, question 9, Dai Lloyd.

David Lloyd (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

9. Will the Minister provide an update on infrastructure projects in the Swansea Bay area? OAQ(5)0026(EI)[W]

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Diolch yn fawr iawn. Sir Terry Matthews and his colleagues on the city region board are continuing to identify priorities that deliver shared aspirations for growth and jobs, including regional collaboration to further develop the region’s digital and transport infrastructure.

David Lloyd (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

Thank you for that response, Minister. Following the Brexit vote, is the electrification of the railway from London to Swansea still going to happen?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Well, we have been assured by the UK Government—or, we were assured before the referendum took place—that all investment that was due to come from the EU would come from the UK Government. We expect every penny to come. We expect every contract that was signed or agreed to prior to the Brexit vote to be honoured, and it is my hope that we will see—and I expect to see—electrification of that line, which fuels the regional economy of south Wales and the Swansea bay area.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

I thank the Cabinet Secretary.

2. 2. Questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Health, Well-being and Sport

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

We now move to item 2 on our agenda, questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Health, Well-being and Sport. The first question is from Janet Finch-Saunders.

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

1. Will the Minister make a statement on the Welsh Ambulance Trust? OAQ(5)0027(HWS)

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Thank you for the question. I’m pleased with the significant progress made by the Welsh Ambulance Services NHS Trust in implementing the organisational changes to the service recommended by the McClelland review. In May, the target for responses to the red category of the most life-threatening emergencies had been met or exceeded for the eighth month in a row with 75.5 per cent being answered within the target time.

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. A matter that has come to light recently, certainly in my own constituency, is the nature of the questions asked by call handlers when first dialling 999, when somebody is calling an ambulance on behalf of someone not personally known to them. It’s happened to me twice in recent weeks where I haven’t known the person, but they’ve fallen outside my office. The series of questions leading to some serious delays have been found problematic, simply because you cannot, often, answer the type of questions that you’re asked if you don’t know the person. Only recently, a local shopkeeper has been left in shock after being unable to answer such questions, and the individual concerned was actually rapidly deteriorating before his very eyes. He felt quite helpless and worried by the delay, and sadly the individual has since passed away.

A recent Wales Audit Office report highlighted concerns about call handling and classifications, and a recent freedom of information request submitted by us showed communication and attitude as an issue for many making complaints to the ambulance trust. I’m really quite unsure as to how the emergency call handling system works on behalf of each different emergency service. Cabinet Secretary, having raised my really serious concerns on this here with you today, will you assure me that you will work with the trust to ensure that call handlers are more sensitively taking into account an individual calling an ambulance in the first instance? This should be considered as an urgent priority.

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Thank you for the question. I think it is important to try and understand how best to deal with concerns people raise when ringing call handlers. I can’t speak for every other emergency service and the way they deal with matters—of course, one of them is not currently devolved—but I do expect that, in examining all the information of the ambulance quality indicators and looking at the review of the new model that we have that will come up this autumn, there is a proper opportunity to look again and to review to see if we have appropriate questions being asked to make sure that people are then dealt with sensitively as well. If people do feel that they have constituents who have not been handled in a sensitive manner, I’d be happy to receive those comments and questions if you haven’t already taken them up with the Welsh Ambulance Services NHS Trust.

Dawn Bowden (Labour, Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney)

The Cabinet Secretary will be aware of the developments of the Choose Well campaign, which has been promoted jointly by a number of health boards, the ambulance trust, Welsh Government, trade unions and other organisations, as you know. The campaign encourages the public to stop and think before calling an ambulance for non-emergency or life-threatening conditions, or before turning up to A&E with relatively minor complaints and ailments. Instead, the public are encouraged to refer to pharmacists, GPs, NHS Direct and other alternative care pathways, thus freeing up ambulances to respond to red 1 calls and relieve pressure on A&E.

Does the Cabinet Secretary agree with me that this campaign has been a contributory factor in alleviating some of the pressures, but the marginal increase in the overall number of emergency calls being received by the ambulance service highlights the need for continued widespread support and publicity in the drive to educate the public on the appropriate use of emergency services?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Yes. Thank you for the question. You make a completely fair point about how we encourage and equip the public to make more informed choices, to access healthcare appropriately so that if you don’t need the precious resource of an emergency ambulance response, there are other alternatives available to you and how you access those is easily understood and available. So, there is more work that we need to do to make sure that that information is available, as well as wanting the public to engage in that information. I’m grateful to all of the key stakeholders, including your former employer, for actually trying to positively highlight the Choose Well service and the information that is available so that people can make that properly informed choice.

Simon Thomas (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

How many times in the eight months that you were talking about, Cabinet Secretary, have the targets been met in the Hywel Dda health board area? And, who’s responsible for that failure?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

I expect to see further improvements in response times in every single health board area—

Simon Thomas (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

How many times?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

And I expect, when we see the next series of quality indicators in the next quarterly report at the end of July, that you’ll see I’m optimistic that Hywel Dda will have hit its response times, because it hasn’t always done so at the start of the pilot.

This was part of the recognition of where we are. Across the whole of Wales, we’re hitting the target. The challenge is, in those areas where we’re not doing so, what could we and should we do about it? That is ‘we’ in its broader sense. It’s about what the ambulance service does; it’s about what the commissioners of the service do and it’s also, actually, about understanding what community first responders do as well, because it isn’t just an issue for rural Wales and, often, community first responders are the first port of call in getting someone the help they need initially, on the scene. That’s especially relevant in rural Wales, so I’m really pleased to see that the Welsh Ambulance Services NHS Trust are working with St John’s Ambulance to develop a new pathway and a new model for community first responders and the service that they can provide.

I actually think that if you bear with us, you’ll see further improvements in Hywel Dda and other parts of Wales, that I’m sure will better serve you and your constituents.

Llyr Gruffydd (Plaid Cymru, North Wales)

2. Will the Secretary make a statement on accident and emergency units in North Wales? OAQ(5)0022(HWS)[W]

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

I thank the Member for the question. I am encouraged to see further improvements in performance against the four-hour target and a reduction in lengthy waits during May. Despite daily attendances rising by 8 per cent when compared with the previous month, eight out of 10 patients spent fewer than eight hours in emergency departments from arrival until admission, transfer or discharge. I have made clear, as has the NHS Wales chief executive, that further improvements are expected.

Llyr Gruffydd (Plaid Cymru, North Wales)

You will have received, as I have received, a letter from a former nurse who has broad clinical experience. She also was a non-executive member of the north Wales health service. In the letter she described what she saw in the Wrexham Maelor emergency department last month. She mentions in her letter a shortage of staff, a shortage of beds and the impact of that on the ability of patients to access the treatment they required in a timely manner, and to move through the system and ultimately leave hospital. In her professional opinion, she says that it’s inevitable that a continuation of that situation will lead to fatalities. That’s a very serious accusation, but would you agree that until we see more appropriate staffing levels, and until we see more beds in the system, then the likelihood of seeing an end to some of the scenes that she describes in the letter is remote?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Thank you for the question. I think it’s fair to say we need a whole-system response to the challenges that are being faced. So, it’s about: how are people conveyed to an emergency department, going back to Dawn Bowden's question earlier, to ensure people make an informed choice about what to do? It’s also about how primary care have tooled up to deal with unscheduled care, to make sure that people who can be seen and treated within their community setting and don’t need to go into an emergency department in the first place—. Then, of course, it is about what happens in the transfer between ambulances and hospitals, where people are there and need to be there. What we do need to then make sure is that flow takes place through the whole hospital system and out of the back door; that’s then the point about delayed transfers of care within the NHS and with social care too.

So, I recognise that all of those things have an impact. Staffing levels and bed numbers are only part of the challenge, and we do need to look at it in its whole sense. That’s why the unscheduled care board does look at this through that whole-systems approach. I was really pleased to attend the seasonal planning forum event last week where, actually, that whole-systems approach was in evidence, and, also, all partners were there to discuss what they needed to do to improve the whole system for the benefit of the patient and the staff working in the system.

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

Welsh Government targets say that 95 per cent of patients should be seen within four hours, and none should wait 12 hours or more, but in the May figures you refer to, only 82.5 per cent were seen within four hours, in A&E units in north Wales, just 79.9 per cent—the worst in Wales. Eight hundred and fifty-six people in north Wales waited more than 12 hours, the highest level in Wales, with Glan Clwyd, I think, the worst performing hospital in Wales on the 12-hour targets. You talk about changing figures, well, that was unchanged since November and worse than December 2015. How, therefore, do you respond to the repeated concern amongst staff and patients in north Wales that the removal of minor injury units and NHS community beds added to the pressure on A&E and that a twenty-first century solution must include the restoration of both those services?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

I thank the Member for his question. I’ll start by making clear that, whilst there has been a welcome reduction in the number of 12-hour waits over the last month, there’s no illusion that we’re in an acceptable position. I don’t think the number of 12-hour waits is acceptable and, in my earlier answer, I made clear that that message has been given to the service and the expectation is improvement. I’m not persuaded, at this point in time, that minor injuries units are part of the solution unless there is evidence that we can staff those properly. There is the need, going through them, to actually be able to deliver a service properly. I’m interested, as I said in the first part of this question, in having a proper whole-system approach and making sure that people are sent to services that are appropriate, that they are given the care that they need and that the options they need are available. But, as the evidence is made available on what we are doing and what we can do, I’m happy to look again at the way the system is organised, so if there is a real answer to improve outcomes for patients through patient experience then we’ll do that, but, at this point in time, I don’t think there is an evidence base to reintroduce minor injuries units on the basis suggested.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

I now move to the party spokespeople to question the Cabinet Secretary for Health, Well-being and Sport. First this week is UKIP spokesperson Caroline Jones.

Caroline Jones (UKIP, South Wales West)

Diolch, Lywydd. Cabinet Secretary, the recruitment and retention of doctors in both primary and secondary care has been described by many, including many of the royal colleges, as a ticking time bomb. In primary care, we have the dual problem of failing to recruit enough GPs and, due to an ageing population, an increasing number of GPs retiring. The Royal College of General Practitioners told me that we need to recruit 400 full-time equivalent GPs, yet, last year, we recruited under 140. What is your Government doing to ensure that we train more GPs in Wales?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

I thank the Member for the question. I’ll start with the one point of disagreement, which is that I don’t think there’s any real evidence that the ageing population is leading to early retirements in our GP workforce. There are a range of pressures upon primary care and secondary care, which are felt right across the UK, and that includes GP recruitment and a range of specialities in secondary care too. I really do recognise that that is the case.

We currently fill 75 per cent of our training vacancies. That is a better fill rate than in Northern Ireland, Scotland or England. So, our challenge is not to set a target that we can’t actually achieve. If I set a target of 400 extra GPs, there’s no real basis for thinking we could fill that number of GPs. I think the first thing is to make sure that we complete all the places that we have available, that we fill those, and then we reset our ambitions and we understand exactly who and what we want from our workforce. That’s why the commitment we’ve given is to look at the GP workforce and to come forward with proposals to improve GP training and, at the same time, the broader primary care team. Because the model of care could, should, and will change in the future. So, it’s about being sensible about what we can do. But I’m really pleased to say we’ve got the buy-in of stakeholders in proceeding on this basis.

Caroline Jones (UKIP, South Wales West)

Thank you for that answer, Cabinet Secretary. Perhaps we can move on to the retention of doctors. Hugely increased workloads and the stress of managing in an overloaded primary care system have been blamed by many GPs as the reason behind their decision to move overseas or to retire from general practice altogether. What is your Government doing to reduce the workload of our GPs to ensure they are not overworked and to ensure that we can retain our GPs?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

I thank the Member for her second question. This is one of our challenges: how do we retain professionals within the workforce? Some of this is about making it easier to stay on different terms, some of it is about making it easier to return to the workforce as well. So, that’s part of the work that is already ongoing with stakeholders, in particular the British Medical Association’s GP committee, and also the Royal College of General Practitioners. But it’s also part of understanding that we need to have a broader primary care team, because, to take workload away from GPs, we need to send them to an appropriate extra place. That’s why advanced nurse practitioners, pharmacists—both clinical pharmacists and community pharmacy—as well as the therapists, like physiotherapists, are part of the answer. So, GPs do what they should do, and we transfer other people who don’t need to see a GP but have a healthcare need to be met in primary care, and have the appropriate professionals to go to for that advice, support and treatment.

Caroline Jones (UKIP, South Wales West)

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. I would like to touch upon the training of our doctors. According to the BMA, it costs over £0.75 million to train a registrar, and over £500,000 to train a GP—a significant investment from the Welsh NHS. What consideration has the Welsh Government given to asking for a minimum term of service in the NHS before those doctors are able to enter private practice or move overseas?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

I thank the Member for her question, which is topical. It’s part of our ongoing conversation about what sorts of incentives we provide for people: so, the additional support that we provide for people in training, and what we can then expect back. So, that is part of the work that we’re taking through with those stakeholders to understand whether that sort of bonded arrangement could be successful in keeping doctors here in Wales. But it’s only got to be part of the answer, because we want to make Wales a really attractive place to live and work and train. So, this is part of the conversation that we are having about the profile of training to make sure that GP training opportunities are a much bigger part of what doctors get before they make their speciality choices. So, there are a whole range of different measures that we are actively considering with our partners, and I expect to have more to say about this in the coming months.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Rhun ap Iorwerth.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Ynys Môn)

Diolch yn fawr iawn. And I’m sure recruitment and retention in the NHS isn’t helped by UKIP-style rhetoric on migration.

Mi ydym ni’n gytûn, gobeithio, Ysgrifennydd, bod yn rhaid sicrhau hawl dinasyddion yr Undeb Ewropeaidd i aros yn y Deyrnas Unedig yn y dyfodol. Ac mae’r Prif Weinidog, yn sicr, wedi crybwyll yn barod bwysigrwydd meddygon, nyrsus ac eraill o dramor i’r NHS. A all yr Ysgrifennydd Cabinet ddweud a ydy o a’i adran wedi cymryd unrhyw gamau penodol yn y mis diwethaf i gysuro y staff allweddol hynny, i roi sicrwydd iddyn nhw bod croeso iddyn nhw yng Nghymru a’n bod ni am iddyn nhw aros?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Thank you. I fully support the point that’s being made. I’m pleased to see that Parliament actually passed a motion confirming that they want EU citizens’ status here to be retained and safeguarded. Here within the NHS in Wales, and across every single Government department, we’ve been keen, over the last few weeks since the Brexit vote, to make very clear in our public statements, when seeing staff, and when standing on platforms—that we do make very, very clear that this Government values the contribution of EU citizens, and from around the rest of the world, who are feeling uncertain about their place in our country. We value the contribution they make to the service they provide, but also to the communities of which they are a part, and I look forward to them being a part of Wales, not just at present, but also as a key part of our future as an outward-looking country.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Ynys Môn)

It doesn’t sound as if a specific assessment has been made; I’m a little surprised about that. The uncertainty we’re facing is in danger of undermining the NHS, and we can’t afford to wait for the Government to take action. We will not go over the problems that Wales is facing now in terms of attracting and retaining doctors, but I will turn towards terms and conditions of the NHS staff. The Welsh Government, of course, has pledged not to copy what Jeremy Hunt has done in adopting a new contract for doctors. Does the Cabinet Secretary see it likely that we will see an end to pay discussions on a UK level in the next few years for all NHS staff, and what preparations is the Secretary undertaking to ensure that we have a specifically Welsh attitude towards pay and conditions that reflects the value of NHS staff, the need to retain experienced staff, and, of course, that shows young people that they can and they should be aiming for careers within the NHS in Wales.

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

I thank the Member for the question. We have regular conversations with our stakeholders in the trade unions about their position on a range of different parts of terms and conditions, including the negotiations we have had in the past with them about pay. And so we need to make sure the conversation is rounded between what the representatives of the workforce actually want to achieve and what we’re able to do as a Government as well.

In terms of junior doctors, given the comment that you made about imposition by the UK Government, I want to make it really clear again: this Government will not be imposing a junior doctors contract. Any changes that are made to junior doctors contracts’ terms and conditions will be done by agreement, on a basis of respect, and I’m looking forward to meeting the British Medical Association, following my invitation to meet with them here in Wales, to discuss the position here in Wales and how we take that forward on that shared and respectful basis.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Ynys Môn)

And I would urge the Ysgrifennydd to look at the real opportunities that would open up to us from following a Welsh path. Doing things differently, as we’ve seen with junior doctors, really can mean doing things better. I think it’s quite clear that Wales is going to need more doctors and more nurses, more occupational therapists, physiotherapists—you name it—over the next few decades. In fact, I doubt that there is a profession in the NHS that won’t require more staff. We’ve heard about GPs, and, if not 400, what is it? Three hundred, 200, 100—you tell us: you bring up a target that you want to aim for. But we’ve been calling for proper workforce planning for several years and still don’t have a national workforce plan. Will there be a plan that reflects on the issues that I’ve touched upon here, and when can we expect to see it?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

We’re committed to a 10-year workforce strategy; we’re working through that with our partners and stakeholders. We’ve had the Jenkins review and I expect to see advice on that in the near future. We’ve also had the review undertaken by Robin Williams, the former vice-chancellor of Swansea University, on education and training. So, we’re properly considering where we are, and what we want to do in the future. It has to take account of the health service we have and the health service we want to have as well. And this is a really big challenge for us, regardless of our political shades and colours, because you made the point that you expect there will be more NHS staff in virtually every single grade and profession. That is the demand, and that is the expectation, at a time of austerity. So, it means that there are really difficult choices for the health service, let alone for every other part of the public service, in the way in which we spend Government money. So, we have to have an honest discussion about what we can do and the budget choices that we make, and in the discussions each party will have an involvement around our budget, and then what we actually can do with the resource that we have. But I’m confident that, in the way that we are currently working, we will be able to provide a workforce strategy that our partners will buy into and support. You only need to look over the border again to see what happens when you don’t have that level of agreement. But I won’t pretend to you or anyone else in this Chamber that, by producing a workforce strategy, everything will be easy, because it will not. We have very real challenges; some of them are across every health system in the UK, but I’m certain that we will be able to match our ambition with our ability to recruit staff at the right grade and at the right point to deliver the sort of quality of care that everyone has the right to expect here in Wales.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The Welsh Conservatives’ spokesperson to ask her questions to the Minister for Social Services and Public Health—Suzy Davies.

Suzy Davies (Conservative, South Wales West)

Diolch, Lywydd. I think it’s my first chance to congratulate you on your post; I know it’s the last day of term, virtually.

Six years ago, the Scottish Government introduced the short-breaks fund to provide respite for carers and replacement care for those they care for. Labour pledged in its ‘Healthy & Active’ manifesto to:

‘Investigate the benefits of establishing a national carers respite scheme in Wales’.

The benefits would be 60,000 hours of replacement care for just over £1 million, with all the related savings to the public purse in terms of hospital admission, drugs, mental health interventions and even unemployment. Can you tell us when the Welsh Government will introduce such a scheme here?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

I thank you very much for that question and I’m acutely aware of the important role that carers play in supporting the people—the loved ones—whom they care for, but also the economic benefit that they offer to our country as well, as you’ve just outlined for us. In reflection of that, the Social Services and Well-being (Wales) Act 2014 gives, for the first time, carers the same rights as the people whom they care for, which I think is a big step forward in terms of our support and our commitment to carers. But you’re absolutely right that our Welsh Labour manifesto identifies respite care as an important service for carers. In fact, when I meet with carers and carers’ organisations, and when my officials do so, respite really does come up as the No. 1 ask for carers, whether it’s a few hours a week or a week or two a year. So, I think we need to take a flexible approach to that. So, I’ll be ensuring that respite care and alternative care are very much a key priority when we deliver on another one of our commitments, which is to refresh our carers strategy. That will be happening later this year. I know that this particular approach is supported by our stakeholders as well. We’ll be having further discussions with health, with local authorities, and the third sector in terms of how our respite offer will look for carers in future.

Suzy Davies (Conservative, South Wales West)

Thank you for that response. I’m not quite sure if it’s quite said that there will be a fund introduced as a result of the carers strategy, but I’ll watch out and hope for the best on that for now.

Moving on, some good news from the Princess of Wales Hospital in my region and, indeed, from the Betsi Cadwaladr University Local Health Board as well: as a matter of course, they’re now taking a common-sense approach to the role of carers when consulting, treating and sharing information about patients with dementia. I think it comes to something when carers are being asked routinely to produce copies of powers of attorney before a carer can be given vital information when it’s clear that the patient themselves doesn’t have the mental capacity to understand what they’re being told. Can you give us an indication of the arguments that you’ll be putting to the Cabinet Sectary for health about the rights and responsibilities of carers, which will need to be reflected in the new dementia strategy?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

I thank you again for that question and you’re absolutely right in identifying that carers play a crucial role in supporting people with dementia. Our dementia vision in Wales is very much about supporting people with dementia to stay at home for as long as possible and to play a full part in the community. Obviously, carers have an absolutely key role to play in that. As you know, we’ll be refreshing our dementia vision. Again, this happens this year, and, on our task and finish group for that, we’ll have the Wales Carers Alliance, so they’ll play very much a key role in advising Government on our future provision for people with dementia and the role that carers can play.

I think it’s extremely important that health and social care are able to share data so that people don’t have to tell their story three times to three different professionals and go over the same data over and over again. So this is something that we’re trying to make some real progress on as well.

Many carers are dementia champions—they play an important role in our Welsh Government support through the Alzheimer’s Society for creating dementia-friendly communities with a view to creating a dementia-friendly Wales. We have 2,000 of those champions at the moment, making a real difference at a very local level, and it’s worth reflecting on my attendance recently at the British-Irish Council, where we had a special discussion on the role of carers particularly. Our administrations identified older carers and carers who support older people as a particular area on which we would like to focus across our administrations in terms of sharing best practice and working together to improve things for the carers and the cared for as well. So, I hope to have some progress made there as well.

Suzy Davies (Conservative, South Wales West)

Well, thank you for that answer as well. If I am hearing you correctly, there will be a sort of cross-over between the dementia strategy and the carers strategy, in terms of the input that goes into both from the Carers Alliance, for example. I know that what I’m going to ask you next is something that is of great importance to everybody here in the Assembly, and that’s the fact that, in recent years, we’ve seen the amount that local authorities are willing or able to pay for the cost of care services and care providers. I hope that we would all agree that the very least that care worker could expect is a living wage; payment for travel between visits, if they are working in people’s homes; reasonable hours for work; and time to care properly for the people that they are looking after. I know that the social services Act envisages different models for delivering social care, but costs are still going to rise, regardless of the model, as the needs of the population grow, not least, of course, through us all living longer. What work are you doing now to plan for the medium- and long-term financial sustainability of paying for social care, regardless of which model is adopted in any given part of Wales?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

Thank you. You’re right to identify that paying for social care and coming to a sustainable, secure long-term future for social care is critically important, given the pressures that you have identified on public services and the aging population, and people’s quite rightly ever-increasing expectations of the kind of social care that they will be able to receive as well. So, I am very alive to this issue, particularly the issue that you mention of differentials in pay as well. Local authority staff do tend to be paid well above the statutory minimum, but they do tend to be paid better than those in the voluntary sector, who in turn tend to be paid better than those in the private sector, who tend to be at the minimum as well. So, there’s a differential there, and there’s important work that we need to do in terms of raising the status of people who work in the care sector in Wales as well, and making it an attractive field for people to come into as well. We need to have career progression, and so on. Care work needs to be valued, because there’s no more important job, really, than caring for the most vulnerable people in our society.

The responsibility for setting pay levels resides with the providers themselves, but we do have some levers in Welsh Government that we can use to try and deal with this. They include a two-tier code, which I’m happy to write to the Member with some more information about. That does ensure that local authorities, when they outsource services to an independent sector, can’t lower the kinds of terms and conditions that the people who are employed can expect. We’re also currently consulting on proposals, using powers under the new Regulation and Inspection of Social Care (Wales) Act 2016, to increase transparency on pay and reinforce compliance with statutory requirements. That includes paying for members of staff travelling between seeing clients as well.

Darren Millar (Conservative, Clwyd West)

3. Will the Minister make a statement on access to NHS services in north Wales? OAQ(5)0020(HWS)

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Thank you for the question. The vast majority of people access the NHS through primary care. We remain committed to improving access to primary care, working with clusters. This will include new initiatives like improving pharmacy-based services and physiotherapy-based services and other therapies as well. We will of course maintain our commitment to also providing high-quality care within our hospitals.

Darren Millar (Conservative, Clwyd West)

It doesn’t surprise me, Cabinet Secretary, that you fail to mention the referral-to-treatment-times targets, which of course have been missed on a regular basis and have been for many years here in Wales. And, of course, the hospital that serves my constituents, Ysbyty Glan Clwyd in Bodelwyddan, has some appalling referral-to-treatment times that it’s currently working to: ear, nose and throat appointments, 36 weeks, just for the first outpatient appointment; restorative dentistry, 35 weeks; orthodontics, 76 weeks from referral to first appointment; pain management, 42 weeks. The list goes on. When are you going to pull your finger out and get this situation sorted, so that my constituents can get access to services when they need them?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Thank you for the question, put with your usual calm and dignified manner. I would, of course, note that, in complaining about no reference to RTT, there was no reference to RTT in your question. If you want an RTT question answered, then actually ask it. When it comes to RTT across the NHS, we’ve actually seen significant improvements in the last six months. [Interruption.] I’ll answer your question if you want to be quiet and actually let me speak. In the last six months, we saw significant progress in RTT within Wales—a really impressive improvement right across the NHS. But we recognise that we have real challenges in maintaining and improving headline performance, including RTT, as well as resolving and reforming the services that deliver that. What we can’t do is expect to see sustained improvement in RTT if we don’t change the models of care that we are running. Just putting more resource into that won’t deliver the sort of services that people expect and deserve.

So, we need to manage two things: we need to make sure that, in a difficult time with less financial resource, we do make sure that we see improvement in that headline rate of performance, and, at the same time, the way in which that care is provided changes as well. That’s why the planned care programme, with plans for orthopaedics, ENT and ophthalmology, to name but three, is really important, because changing the way we provide these services is actually the real answer to having the high-quality care people expect in the industrial volumes in which people do now attend for these particular treatments. So, I’m actually optimistic about what we’ll be able to achieve in Wales, and I hope that your constituents, and others, will see a real difference in the quality of care provided, the outcomes of that care, and the experience of the care that they receive from our national health service.

Hannah Blythyn (Labour, Delyn)

Cabinet Secretary, would you agree with me that giving patients faster access to the appropriate service or healthcare professional is critical to ensuring that people are treated as quickly as possible? Therefore, what steps are being taken in north Wales to ensure that patients have the option to be treated by the right healthcare professionals whilst also supporting our GPs?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Well, I absolutely agree with the point that is being made, and this is part of the challenge of dealing with headline RTT, actually, because lots of people who are on lists at present don’t actually need operative procedures, and so, it’s partly about making sure they go to the right place at the right time at the start of their care journey. So, for example—I’ve talked about this before and I’ll keep on saying it, because it is a really good and obvious example—physiotherapy services and primary care. About 30 per cent of people who attend GP appointments have musculoskeletal problems. Almost all of those people could see the physiotherapist first, and most of those people will have their issues resolved by the physio. If they then need to be referred on, either to a GP or a specialist, that can take place. That will release pressure away from the GP—and also what we’re doing in pharmacy as well. The Choose Pharmacy platform is really important, because of not just the value of the minor ailments scheme, which is of value in itself—and we’ve seen examples of significant percentages of people being deferred away from the GP to pharmacy appropriately—but also the opportunity for more services to be delivered in the community pharmacy setting, releasing time and pressure for GPs to see people who really do need them and the expertise that they provide. So, that will be a consistent theme of this Government, and I believe patients will see a definite difference and improvement as a result.

Llyr Gruffydd (Plaid Cymru, North Wales)

Following a decision taken by health chiefs in Cheshire to close a special unit for babies born before 32 weeks in the Countess of Chester Hospital because of the increase in the number of deaths there, and to move it to Arrowe Park, can you tell us what impact this will have on babies from Wales and intensive care services for newborn babies in north Wales?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

I thank the Member for the question—I’m aware of the issue, which is obviously a serious one. We do have proper commissioning arrangements for care where it’s needed for babies to travel, but the additional potential travel is an issue that we need to think about, and how we support families. I’m interested in making sure that, in the care that we do need to commission, where people will naturally need to go for services across the border in different parts of Wales, that we’re properly assured about the quality of care that is provided, but also that our families are supported when they need to go over the border for this particular specialist care, but also, with the special care that we provide within Wales, that we assure ourselves about the quality of care and the sustainability of that care as well. So, it does mean that there are difficult choices for us to make about properly concentrating the very specialist care that this does represent and making sure that people have good, quality access to the very best care, and not simply making sure that we provide lots of different services that aren’t sustainable and that don’t provide the right quality of care that I think families and babies deserve.

Paul Davies (Conservative, Preseli Pembrokeshire)

4. Will the Minister outline his priorities for health services in Pembrokeshire? OAQ(5)0019(HWS)

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

My priorities are to provide the people of Pembrokeshire with health services that deliver the best possible outcomes for patients. I will, of course, be guided by the best and most up-to-date clinical evidence and advice to deliver the high-quality healthcare that the people of Pembrokeshire deserve.

Paul Davies (Conservative, Preseli Pembrokeshire)

Cabinet Secretary, you won’t be surprised to hear me say that my constituents’ priorities are to reintroduce the special care baby unit and full-time paediatric services at Withybush hospital. However, you’ve made it quite clear that the Welsh Government’s changes to services at Withybush hospital have come about as a result of the Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health review, which concluded that there was no harm facing patients in Pembrokeshire. But I put it to you that, in order to be meaningful, the review should have collated and collected a large pool of data over a significant period of time before concluding that there is no harm facing patients. Therefore, in the circumstances, what plans does the Welsh Government have to conduct more research into this matter so that the statistical evidence is fully reliable, because I believe that the changes that have been made are unsafe for the people that I represent?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

There is absolutely no evidence to say the changes are unsafe, and I really do regret the manner in which this debate is approached, because people are unnecessarily worried and concerned when elected representatives say that services are unsafe or are dangerous. That is deeply unhelpful. There is simply no evidence to support the assertion that the Member has made in this Chamber and in press comments locally. In fact, what we do have as an evidential base is the fact that there has been no clinical harm to any baby or mother who has delivered their child under the new arrangements. In fact, 210 women have presented to Withybush midwifery-led unit since it has been opened. Three quarters of them have delivered safely within the midwifery-led unit. A quarter have been transferred for safe delivery to Glangwili, and, in fact, the same proportion have delivered home births as well.

This is a successful system delivering quality care to women and their children, and that is what we want. We need to invest in and respect the professionalism of midwives and the job that they do. We need to make sure that specific, specialist services are provided on a model that is sustainable and delivers the quality of care that people need. Now, that is my commitment to the people of Pembrokeshire, and right across Wales. If the evidence changes, then we’ll look again at the system that we are delivering and at the quality of care being provided, but, at this point in time, there is zero evidence of clinical harm as a result of the changes that we have made, and I’m proud that we have made changes based on evidence and that people are receiving a better service as a result.

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

I’d like to follow up the question that was asked by Rhun earlier, and that is: in the light of the decision in England to reject the contract by junior doctors, there could be a real impact in terms of morale in the NHS in England. I just wondered if you could tell us what you could do in addition to really attract, possibly, some of those people who are disillusioned with the system as it is being conducted in England.

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Thank you for the question. As I said earlier, we do not intend to go down the route that England is going down by imposing a contract. A big reason why that contract was rejected was because doctors don’t trust the UK Government, and that’s such a damaging state of affairs. I’m pleased that we do have a relationship of trust with the British Medical Association here in Wales, and they recognise that after the vote on rejecting the junior doctors contract. So, I will be meeting them, and we will of course be making clear to junior doctors in England and any other part of the UK that they will be respected and valued if they want to live and work here in Wales. It’s not just about making the offer to people in England, but to positively say there are good reasons to come here to Wales to live and work in a system where they will be trusted and respected. We are actively listening to and engaging with doctors to understand what we need to do to improve the quality of training available. I’m actually really optimistic about this because the Royal College of General Practitioners and the BMA themselves are actively engaged in the work that we’re doing. They think that we’re on the right path and we’re doing the right things. The challenge for us is to do it at scale and at pace and deliver the sort of healthcare that we want here in Wales, and the number of doctors that we recognise we need as well.

Simon Thomas (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

In light of the fact that there is a shortage of GPs and primary care services in south Pembrokeshire, I would like a statement from the Cabinet Secretary that he is confident that the service is safe for the constituents in Pembrokeshire. Secondly, would he like to explain why he hasn’t supported making the experiment of the minor injuries unit in Tenby, which was opened over Easter, into something that is available throughout the tourist period at least?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

I thank the Member for his question. I have regular contact with people in south Pembrokeshire about the quality and nature of primary care services. It is absolutely an issue that crosses my desk on a regular basis and I do take an interest in it. I have not had people present to me with concerns about the safety of the service; rather more worries about the quality of care and how people access that care is the primary concern that is brought to me. There are a range of interventions that the health board has provided, including providing extra nurse practitioners, extra therapists and, indeed, paramedics to help support primary care in that particular part of Wales. So, the health board are being genuinely proactive in addressing the issue.

When it comes to minor injuries, and in particular the seasonal nature of the additional minor injuries work that goes in, following the pilot over Easter there’s been an evaluation and the health board is actually working through a more regular and sustainable service for doing that, and understanding what they need to commission for the seasonal additional level of interest and service they’ll need to provide. They’ve already agreed, in fact, to make sure that there is an additional service through the summer months by commissioning a service through St John Ambulance as well. So, this isn’t an issue where people are being ignored, or where recommendations and evaluation reports are being rejected; it is simply about working through how that is delivered in a sensible manner so people do get the quality of care that they need at the particular times of the year when there are additional pressures on that service in that particular part of Wales.

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

5. Will the Minister provide an update on paediatric services in west Wales? OAQ(5)0034(HWS)

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Thank you for the question. The recent independent review by the Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health stated that the changes to paediatric services in west Wales in 2014 have led to improved outcomes and better compliance with national clinical standards. We are investing in the service to secure further improvements for families in west Wales.

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Cabinet Secretary, as you’ll be aware, the Hywel Dda health board is engaged with clinicians and patient groups to look at developing an enhanced patient pathway for paediatric services in Pembrokeshire and Carmarthenshire by the end of the year. On a recent visit to Withybush and Glangwili, I was made aware of the reliance on doctors from outside the UK to ensure that we can fulfil the rotas in paediatrics in particular. I’m sure you’ll agree with me that it doesn’t help to attract doctors when it’s suggested that that care that is provided is unsafe. Since the Brexit vote, Hywel Dda health board has written to non-UK medical staff in the light of an increase in race hate incidents across the UK. I’ve helped to launch a campaign to encourage patients to go that extra mile to thank those doctors who’ve come to help us in Wales to provide that service. Will you join with me in extending that welcome and ensuring that NHS services will not be adversely affected by the EU vote and that those doctors who are here to help us will indeed be made to feel welcome?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Thank you for the question. I quite agree with the points that are made. The level of intolerance that I’m sure each of us has seen within our communities, directed at public servants and people in private life as well, is something that I feel deeply ashamed and angry about, because I want our country to be a properly outward-looking, welcoming place where we value what people do and what people bring to us and our country. In particular, in the health service, we are reliant on a range of health professionals from around the world to make the service work, to deliver the quality care that we value. I really do think that the messaging the NHS is giving, and Members of the Cabinet are giving, to all parts of the service, making it clear that we welcome the fact that people are here, we want them to stay and they are welcome to stay and keep on delivering that real value to our services, is really important. We can’t say it often enough.

On recruitment, I should say, I’ve met a range of doctors who have been recruited from within the EU and outside and it’s a good example of a health board that has changed its attitude in the way it talks about its services and has been more successful in selling the idea of living in west Wales as well as working there in a really successful manner. There’s a lesson there for other health boards about what they can do if there’s a level of ambition and equally if the clinical community is prepared to say, ‘We want these services to work and we want to be part of making that work and attracting more people to come to work with us as part of the healthcare team’.

Angela Burns (Conservative, Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire)

Minister, there’s a shortage of community paediatricians in the Hywel Dda health board. One of the areas that this severely impacts is the provision of support and diagnosis for young people and children with autism. Despite reducing waits, we still have some people waiting two to four years for an autistic diagnosis. I don’t need to tell you that the earlier these young people get that diagnosis, the better their life chances are of being able to be the best they can possibly be. That is surely our aim for them. Now, Hywel Dda are trying their best, so they assure me on a constant basis; what I would like to know is what you are doing to monitor not just Hywel Dda health board, but actually all health boards, to ensure that there is adequate provision and to see what we can do to attract some of these much valued clinicians into our country.

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

I thank the Member for her question and her genuine interest in this area. We’ve had half a discussion about this and I’m sure we’ll have more discussions through the life of this Assembly term. You’ll be aware that we’re due to have an autism strategy. We had a consultation that concluded shortly after the election. We’re analysing the responses and we want to make sure that the action that we take is actually about improving the position for individuals and their families, so for the carer group around individuals with this developmental condition—it really does matter too. And, we’re investing new money in the service. At the end of this year, I expect us to be able to publish our new strategy and action plan with the investment that will go with that. I do believe that we will see improved outcomes for families and the people within them, because these are a range of conditions that many Members in this Chamber will understand, from either direct experience or from constituents—I certainly have members of my extended family, and so I do have some understanding of the impact this can have on changing the lives of whole groups of people around them. We want to make sure that our service provides the support that they would quite rightly expect.

Siân Gwenllian (Plaid Cymru, Arfon)

6. What is the Welsh Government’s long term strategy for training doctors in north Wales? OAQ(5)0026(HWS)W

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Thank you for the question. We are working with the Wales Deanery, the NHS, the royal colleges, the British Medical Association and professional bodies to ensure that we make Wales an attractive place to train, work and live for any doctor in training, with a particular focus on some of the issues in north Wales. As I said earlier, I will have more to say in the coming months, as we work this through with our key stakeholders to produce a refreshed long-term strategy.

Siân Gwenllian (Plaid Cymru, Arfon)

Thank you very much. Almost half of all the doctors on the Llŷn peninsula are over 55 years old, and a large number of them are expected to retire over the next five years, which will lead to a real crisis in the area. There is some evidence that doctors tend to remain where they were trained. So, in order to tackle this shortage of doctors there is a strong argument, as you have mentioned, for having an all-Wales long-term plan to increase the number of medical training places. But, in addition to that, there is also a strong argument for the creation of a new medical school in Bangor so that we can expand provision across Wales, and particularly in north Wales. The First Minister has agreed in this Chamber recently that we need to consider drawing up a business plan for a medical school for north Wales and, indeed, there is a great deal of support from stakeholders within the health sector and the HE sector for this. There is a particular opportunity to create a medical school that can specialise in providing medical services in rural areas. So, Cabinet Secretary, will you commit today to participating in full in the process of creating a medical school in Bangor?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Thank you for the question. I recognise what you say about the profile of GPs in a range of different communities, including across north Wales. That’s why it’s important that we have new models of care that actually provide the sort of care people will want, and that new GPs will want to go into, because there is a change in the way that we provide the service and how people expect to work. That’s why part of what I’m looking at is the exposure that doctors have in training to primary care at an earlier stage, because there’s good evidence and logic to say that, if that happens, people are more likely to want to opt in to a career in primary care as well. That has the support, again, of our key stakeholders, as something for us to look at.

In terms of your point about a new medical school, I recognise why the Member would want to make a bid for a new medical school in her constituency, and I recognise the real interest there is in this particular area. What I’ve said, and what I will do, is I’ll look at the case for a new medical school. I’ve asked officials to do some work on what that might or might not look like, because if the evidence is there that it’s something we could do and it would deliver on what we want it to—that it would recruit people, and that it would help us—then I’m interested in seeing what that means and how we could achieve that. I also want to see what currently exists with the clinical school and the arrangements for training in north Wales, even if there is not a new medical school. So, I will be guided by, practically, what we can do and what we should do to ensure that we more doctors in training and more doctors who are interested in working in the various different parts of Wales, including the position you described in north Wales.

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

7. How is the Welsh Government engaging with patients in North Wales? OAQ(5)0021(HWS)

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

We are committed to engaging with people throughout north Wales. As part of the special measures, the health board is required to improve how it engages with staff, the local population, partners and stakeholders, and is committed to developing a more effective engagement model.

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

Thank you. Well, as you’ll know, the north Wales health alliance has written to you—a broad coalition of campaigners and groups across the north Wales region—congratulating you on your appointment, saying that they hope we don’t see a repeat of some of the mistakes of the past and asking whether you will commit to holding meaningful consultations with patients before any major change is initiated and to respond positively to patients’ concerns. They note the ‘OECD Reviews of Health Care Quality: United Kingdom 2016’ comments about Wales, which called for a stronger central guiding hand from the Minister.

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

I thank the Member for his question. There are two different points here. The first is about central services and the central guidance that the OECD refer to, and they’re not really talking about the Government overtaking the role of local health boards in engaging with their local population to explain their proposals for improving the service that people receive. As I said in my initial answer, as part of special measures, we recognise that this particular health board in north Wales had a problem in engaging with its local population, and engaging in genuine consultation about proposals for service change. That’s part of what we expect them to improve upon. They have made progress. It isn’t complete, and I wouldn’t say that it’s job done. So, it’s work in progress, but I’m really clear that the local health board have to be able to properly engage with people before service changes are made, and to properly consult with them. But this is also important—about the clinical community and wider NHS staff being engaged too, because they have to be a part of engaging with their local population. They are people that people will trust, and value their opinions too, and there was a real fracture in the relationship in the past. I’m pleased that positive progress has been made. I expect that to be continued, and I will also be looking at the objective assessment of regulators at the next tripartite meeting to understand whether adequate progress is being made in this area, as in the others of special measures in north Wales.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Finally, question 8, Leanne Wood.

Leanne Wood (Plaid Cymru, Rhondda)

8. Will the Minister make a statement on doctor recruitment? OAQ(5)0029(HWS)

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Thank you for the question. We will continue to work in partnership with health boards and trusts to market Wales and the NHS Wales as an attractive place for doctors to train, work and live. We will continue to prioritise those hard-to-fill specialties where recruitment challenges remain right across the UK.

Leanne Wood (Plaid Cymru, Rhondda)

Minister, Cwm Taf local health board tell me that the reason that they are closing Horeb Surgery in Treorchy is because they can’t get another GP to work there; the existing GP is now going to work elsewhere having begged the health board for assistance. One colleague is working at the surgery for nothing at the moment in order to help her colleague out. The reputation of the health board has suffered amongst GPs as a result of the way that they’ve handled the Horeb Surgery situation, and that will undoubtedly impact on their ability to attract GPs to the area in the future. Now, you questioned earlier on the need for 400 new GPs; that’s the figure that’s been put out there. If it’s not 400 GPs, how many do you think we need to overcome these problems? What responsibility do you take as health Minister for the lack of workforce planning and for the shortage of GPs, which has led to this decision? Do you take any responsibility at all for the closure of this surgery in Treorchy?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Thank you for the question. It is, of course, a matter of fact that we have more GPs than ever before in the health service; the challenge always is how many staff we need at what grades to provide the quality of care that people will rightly expect, and it will be a changing model of care. Horeb is an example of a model of care where they could not recruit and they couldn’t attract other GPs to work in that particular model. I do need to correct part of the statement; the health board have not closed this practice. This practice has returned its contract. It has said it won’t be providing GP services. That is not the same as saying the health board have closed the practice. In fact, patients are being properly cared for; they will be provided with alternative GP services within the local area—in the very local area, in fact; there are a range of GP practices within the town. My concern is how we remodel primary care to make sure that people do have high-quality care within their local communities. That’s why we’re looking at the work that clusters do, and I’m really encouraged by the work of clusters right across Wales, because I expect that in the future, there will be fewer but larger primary care practices. I expect that will happen by means of amalgamations and federations, and I think that will actually provide a more stable service and a better service with a wider range of services for people. It’s also why we have to talk about other primary care professionals, because if you were listening to the earlier answers about the need to make sure that therapist services are available and the need to make sure that advanced nurse practitioners are available and the role of pharmacists, that’s actually easier to do and to achieve in a different model of care. We see that in north Wales in Prestatyn, where we’ve remodelled the service with a number of GPs and other healthcare professionals for the same level of income, but a broader and better service that people are really enthusiastic about working in, and patients themselves recognise that they have not seen any fall in the quality of care they are provided with, and actually people are really enthusiastic about that model. There is a time and a space for a sensible conversation about remodelling primary care, and I really do hope that people engage in that conversation in a grown-up manner that recognises we all have challenges to face, but I’m optimistic that we can face them properly here in Wales, and we can be really proud of the service that we are providing for every single community.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Thank you to the Cabinet Secretary.

3. 3. Statement: The Circuit of Wales

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

We move on to item 3, a statement by the Cabinet Secretary for Economy and Infrastructure on the Circuit of Wales—Ken Skates.

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Thank you. I’d like to update Members on progress with the Circuit of Wales project following a meeting I had earlier today with Michael Carrick, chief executive officer of the Heads of the Valleys Development Company and Martin Whitaker, chief executive officer of Circuit of Wales. As Members will be aware, we have been working with the Circuit of Wales and providing financial support to develop this project over a significant period of time. We recognise the potential positive economic impact it could have for Wales, and Ebbw Vale in particular. It is a large undertaking and we have always been clear that any support provided by the taxpayer needs to be proportionate and fair.

The Heads of the Valleys Development Company was established in 2009 and has subsequently developed plans to create an automotive cluster, centred on a performance racing circuit designed to host international motor sports events. The racetrack is planned to be situated just north of the Rassau industrial estate in Ebbw Vale, with the aim of attracting a range of two and four-wheel racing events, including Moto GP, with a target of attracting three quarters of a million visitors a year within three to five years of start-up. The project is forecast by the developer to create 300 full-time equivalent jobs, consisting of 49 full-time roles and 3,500 part-time temporary staff for events. There would also be employment opportunities created during the two years the track would be under construction.

The often publicly quoted claim of 6,000 jobs is predicated on the assumption that additional jobs would be created by businesses, particularly in the engineering and automotive sectors, clustering alongside the circuit and also by other employment multipliers such as hotels and catering. The main benefit to the Welsh economy would be derived from the future investments that might be expected to be created by the existence of the circuit, but, accordingly, this involves a degree of uncertainty and can only be seen as a long-term aspiration.

The Welsh Government has been engaged with the Heads of the Valleys Development Company since 2011, since when the company has sought financial support from us at each key stage in the project’s development. It is important to remember that when this project was first presented to us, we were told it would be one that would be fully funded by private sector risk capital without the need for a Government guarantee. At that stage we made a commitment to part-fund the project development and agreed to grant aid of around £16 million towards certain aspects of the circuit project, primarily to support the creation of jobs. This grant aid was conditional on the Circuit of Wales raising the necessary private finance. Unfortunately, despite the best efforts of the company, they were unable to raise the stated private investment and, accordingly, they have been unable to draw down this grant.

Earlier this year the Circuit of Wales asked us to consider a new proposal with an alternative financing structure. Their plan sought a Welsh Government guarantee to underwrite 100 per cent of a project finance facility provided by Aviva Investors of £357.4 million. This level of guarantee would have increased the exposure to risk of the Welsh Government by around 15 times.

In April, my predecessor, the then Minister for Economy, Science and Transport, decided that it would be an unacceptable risk to underwrite the entire £357.4 million investment for the project, but stressed that our door remained open if sufficient private investment could be secured that presented a fair share of risks between the public and private sectors.

The developer submitted a revised proposal for discussion in mid-April, which, following observations from Welsh Government officials, was further refined and resubmitted at the end of May. The latest proposal has been presented by some commentators as a solution where the majority of the funding is coming from private finance. However most of this funding still requires a Welsh Government guarantee, and taken in conjunction with loans provided by local authorities, the public purse still holds the majority of the risk.

Including both direct Welsh Government guarantees and local authority loans, the latest proposal put forward by the Circuit of Wales asks Welsh Government to underwrite around 75 per cent of the total £370 million cost of the project, with local authorities underwriting a further 8 per cent. Unfortunately, despite the efforts of the project backers, this leaves only around 17 per cent of risk being taken by the private sector.

That amount of risk falling on the Welsh taxpayer, through Welsh Government and local authority support, is unacceptable as it currently stands, especially at a time when we are facing significant economic uncertainty from a UK exit from Europe. In our view, this project does not currently provide the level of value for money necessary for the amount of public funding being put at risk. On that basis, I have today told Michael Carrick and Martin Whitaker that I believe further work is needed on this proposal. My door remains firmly open and I’ve urged them to revise their bid in such a way where the private sector takes more of the risk in order for this project to be taken forward.

We need to see at least 50 per cent of this project funded and 50 per cent of the risk underwritten by the private sector to justify value for money for Welsh Government and the public purse and they have accepted this principle. My officials will now work constructively with the Circuit of Wales team to ensure this project can be successfully delivered to benefit the local economy of Ebbw Vale and Wales at large.

Steffan Lewis (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

I thank the Cabinet Secretary for his statement today, although it is disappointing that there is yet another delay on this project—a dash, potentially, to the hopes of the community who’ve had so many false dawns, since their area was deindustrialised some decades ago.

As the Cabinet Secretary has mentioned, millions of pounds of public money have already been provided to progress the Circuit of Wales project. Is it, therefore, reasonable to conclude that that was done without Welsh Government being clear about the precise nature of its intentions regarding the project as a whole? The Cabinet Secretary has said that his Government has engaged with the Heads of the Valleys Development Company since 2011; why are we here in 2016, and only now has the Government set out its red lines, its business proposal? Is the Cabinet Secretary able to reveal when the 50:50 liability share between private and public sectors became Welsh Government policy in relation to this project? And can he elaborate on why, for this project, such a breakdown has been deemed appropriate?

Whilst we fully accept the need for serious care when Government underwrites private schemes, Government usually does so, of course, when markets fail. In this case, a failure to invest in areas such as Blaenau Gwent under normal market conditions. Government intervention is therefore crucial in order to secure employment in such areas. Why has there not been a clarity of communication between Welsh Government, local communities and investors on that basis? As someone who has spent part of my upbringing in Tredegar, I, in my relatively short life so far—so far—have seen hopes raised and dashed in places like Blaenau Gwent; promises of new opportunities made and then taken away. And here we have, again, years and years of raising and dashing hopes of people and communities who’ve suffered intolerable poverty and unacceptable levels of deprivation. Is it any wonder that so many, for so long, have lost all hope that things will ever change? Will the Cabinet Secretary give his honest assessment on whether or not he believes this project has a future? And what impact does he believe this sorry saga of many years will have on the long-term economic prospects for our Valleys communities?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Can I thank the Member for his questions? It’s a shame that the Member doesn’t recognise the fact that I’ve been able to enter this role with a fresh pair of eyes and have been able to set a very clear bar for the Circuit of Wales—50 per cent of the project costs and 50 per cent of the risks being covered by the private sector. This is a private sector project and, yes, whilst there is market failure in parts of Wales, and it’s a responsibility for Government to make sure that there is investment in those areas where there is market failure, where there is a private sector project in play, it’s essential that the risk to the taxpayer is brought to a minimum, and that the value for money for the taxpayer and for the public purse is promoted to the highest possible level. That’s why I have set the bar at 50 per cent and the Member may wish to reflect on what I said at the end of my statement, which is that the Circuit of Wales has accepted that principle. Surely that shows that we have been able to secure the best possible deal for the taxpayer in ensuring that this project can go to the next stage.

Russell George (Conservative, Montgomeryshire)

I thank the Cabinet Secretary for his statement. The construction of the Circuit of Wales is a fantastic opportunity not only for the south Wales Valleys, but for Wales more generally. So, it is disappointing news today; I think there’s no getting away from that. But I hope that the Circuit of Wales project still remains an exciting project that can offer great opportunities to provide investment and jobs in the area.

The project has been estimated to create 6,000 full-time jobs ranging from research and development to hospitality, as well as a further 3,000 construction jobs. I note your comments in your statement today in that regard, but these jobs were promised to be delivered to local people. The project has also promised training placements and providing a significant amount of upskilling as well in the region, and, of course, increased tourist opportunities as well—providing an estimated £15 million to boost the local and regional economy. So, today’s decision is regrettable, especially at a time when the Welsh Government have set up a new taskforce to manage the regeneration of the south Wales Valleys and when local councils have expressed a willingness to contribute to the scheme as well. I understand that the Welsh Government, of course, must exercise caution when spending public money. I fully agree with that concept, but, at the same time, there’s got to be a recognition that the kicking of this project, potentially, into the long grass, beyond the summer, will be a huge blow to the region. There’s no getting away from that.

Now, given the fact that the Welsh Government has rejected the initial proposals, due to the unacceptable risk, can I ask the question—I don’t think you answered this fully—that the Plaid spokesperson did ask with regard to when the 50:50 risk to underwrite was submitted to the developer? I think there are questions here of when that was put to the developer, why the developers weren’t made aware of this at a much earlier stage, why it appears, only now, that this been put forward. Perhaps you can provide some clarity on that.

You also mentioned in your statement that there are uncertainties in the country as a result of the country leaving the European Union, which I accept as well. But are you suggesting that, perhaps, the decision might have been different had the outcome of the referendum been different? There’s a slight implication of that and perhaps you could clarify that as well.

You said in your statement today that you’ve met with the developers this morning or today, and I’d be grateful if you could perhaps talk to us about what you discussed in that meeting with regard to a timetable for when you expect developers to provide revised plans and proposals to you. We also have to accept, of course, the possibility, and I’m sure you will as well, that the project may now not go ahead in that regard, because, clearly, with the announcement today, there may be some uncertainties among potential backers that this project is not so sustainable as it originally may have been. So, with that in mind, perhaps you could outline what regeneration schemes the Welsh Government will put in place to boost regeneration in Blaenau Gwent and the Welsh Valleys.

Can I ask as well what the Cabinet Secretary’s assessment is of the wider impact on the local economy for other businesses that perhaps would have previously committed to setting up new businesses around the circuit of Wales site as well? Finally, is it your view—and I hope you can provide a positive answer to this—that developers are likely to come back with a revised plan that you believe that you will be able to back and support, and the project will go ahead?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Can I thank the Member for his questions and just stress that, again, this is not a disappointing announcement, given that the Circuit of Wales have agreed to secure the majority of risk from the private sector in order to take this forward? If we step back to the origins of the proposal, when we were first presented with the Circuit of Wales vision, it was on a basis of no risk falling on the taxpayer’s purse. It subsequently went to the point where my predecessor was asked to underwrite 100 per cent of the risk. That was unacceptable. We have now been able to cast a fresh pair of eyes, in the form of myself, over the proposals. However, my predecessor had said that the level of risk had to come down considerably. The Circuit of Wales fundraising plans are still a work in progress, and the timeline for a formal application rests with the Circuit of Wales. I have now given them a steer on value for money, as was requested. So, I have determined that we need to reduce that level of risk down below 50 per cent and ensure that it is a private sector project.

In terms of work that will take place to ensure that there is regeneration in the Valleys, my colleague Alun Davies is leading a ministerial taskforce to ensure that we exploit every opportunity to regenerate the Valleys, to ensure that we give every person in the Valleys an opportunity to gain quality employment as close as possible to where they live, so that people are proud of their communities, that people see their communities in the ascendance, not in decline.

In terms of the jobs that could be created, as I’ve already stated, there is a business case that proposes a certain number of jobs to be created during the construction period, a further set of jobs that will be guaranteed as a consequence of the circuit operating, but then an additional estimate of 6,000 jobs that would be created through attracting key players from the automotive sector, and, of course, hospitality to the racing track. This is not a disappointing decision today. What I have done is outlined how I have been able to reduce the risk attached to the taxpayer’s guarantee of this important project. But, as I’ve said, the Circuit of Wales have stated that they are able to work to the principle I’ve outlined of 50 per cent—no more—risk for the public purse.

Neil Hamilton (UKIP, Mid and West Wales)

I’m disappointed in the Cabinet Secretary, in whom I’d invested such high hopes a few weeks ago—[Interruption.]—when I welcomed him to his exalted position. I expressed the hope that, under his leadership, the Welsh economy would put its skates on. [Assembly Members: ‘Oh.’] Boom, boom. Unfortunately, he seems to have put it on the skids instead, as a result of the negative and unimaginative approach that has been demonstrated by this statement today.

I don’t think it’ll give many people in Merthyr, Ebbw Vale, and towns like that, a warm feeling inside to know that, instead of the Circuit of Wales, they will have Alun Davies and a ministerial taskforce instead. How many jobs is that going to generate? This proposal would generate 1,500 jobs in the construction phase, and up to 6,000 jobs in the future, if the site is fully developed. It’s important, I think—and I’m sure the Cabinet Secretary will confirm this—that the Welsh Government has not been asked to put in a single penny of further investment in this project, and it’s all being funded by the private sector, with the benefit of public sector guarantees.

This is a £380 million project, so that’s a massive development proposal; £240 million of that is being put in by Aviva, in which I suppose we’re all, in a sense, technically investors, because they invest the pension fund contributions that we contribute in this Chamber. And, out of that, only £190 million has been asked for by way of a guarantee from the Welsh Government. So, that’s 50 per cent of the project funding. And, in exchange for that, a commercial fee has been paid—or is proposed to be paid—of £3 million a year to the Welsh Government. That guarantee will be secured on the assets of the project, once they have been created. There will be no guarantee at all in the construction phase. So, this 50 per cent guarantee will be secured upon 100 per cent of the assets, and what’s being asked for, therefore, is only a secondary contingent obligation, which comes into effect only on an annual basis if the earnings of the project, when completed, are insufficient to pay the guaranteed element of the Aviva funding for that particular year. So, there is no risk of the Welsh Government suddenly being presented with a bill for £190 million in any one year in the future.

The economic impact of this scheme is expected to be worth £35 million to £50 million a year, in an area that is currently very economically deprived. The corollary of that, from the point of view of the risk that the Welsh Government is being asked to assume, is a guarantee call, which would, in the most extreme example, be in the order of only £8.5 million a year. Does the Cabinet Secretary not think that that’s a pretty good bargain for the Welsh people, generally, for the Welsh economy? And I hope that he will show perhaps rather more imagination in the future, because the Government is very strong on strategies for economic development, but in producing economic development, they’re a total failure.

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Well, I’d like to thank the Member for his question, but say I do hope that he will show more common sense in the future. I’m rather disappointed that the Member is saying—or inferring—that he would be content for the taxpayer to be exposed to 75 per cent, or indeed 100 per cent, of the risk of the project and yet he does not believe that the taxpayer should only be exposed to 50 per cent of the risk. I don’t quite understand why the Member would rather expose the taxpayer to all of the risk rather than half of the risk, because that is specifically what he’s said he’s disappointed in. I’m afraid there was a question there, but it’s one that didn’t make sense.

Adam Price (Plaid Cymru, Carmarthen East and Dinefwr)

The Cabinet Secretary has twice said that the Circuit of Wales now accept his 50/50 split in terms of the guarantee. Can I invite him to say a little more explicitly if they have agreed to a 50/50 split immediately, or whether they have agreed to work towards reducing the exposure of the public sector to that 50 per cent level over time? Can I ask him this as well? He’s said, of course, that Wales and the Welsh Government are open for business, and yet this proposal has been on his desk for many weeks. The company has repeatedly been seeking to engage with him, and yet it was only this morning, with minutes to go to this statement, and a statement, actually, that changed from the written statement because those words that they have agreed to the 50/50 split were added because, of course, the negotiation was conducted with the clock ticking. Now, surely, that is no way to conduct a proper negotiation on such a large and complex project as this.

Could he also say, as has already been raised, what basis is this new policy of the 50/50 split, which has landed like tablets of stone out of nowhere? What basis is that? Is it based on some UK Government green book policy, et cetera? We have the use of contingent liability, which is a standard procedure used by the UK Government, so where does this 50/50 split come from? And why prevent the local authorities? If the Welsh Government is prepared to accept a 50 per cent guarantee and the local authorities, because of the economic impact, particularly in some of the deprived communities, said, ‘We’re happy, on behalf of our residents, to actually take a little bit of this risk as well’, why prevent them from doing that? Why be so dogmatic in this case?

He refers to risk. Risk in this context constitutes two elements of course: there’s the quantum of the guarantee, but also it’s the likelihood of the guarantee ever arising; i.e. will the project fail? And I put it to the Cabinet Secretary, if he believes—

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Can I just say, there is a Minister who is making comment, and perhaps the Minister would like to be a bit quieter so that the Cabinet Secretary can hear what the Member is asking?

Adam Price (Plaid Cymru, Carmarthen East and Dinefwr)

I have to ask the Cabinet Secretary: if he believes that there is a high probability of this project failing, why has he even been having the conversation for five years in any case? And, isn’t it true that his own Government’s due diligence shows there is almost a negligible scenario where the guarantee will be called in? Because it’s a strong project; that’s why. There is a strong business case. In which case, all of this is academic, and he should get on with the job and actually support this proposal in an area of Wales that is crying out for jobs and leadership.

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

I note that many of the Member’s colleagues don’t share his views whatsoever. The fact of the matter is that many of the Member’s colleagues are utterly opposed to this project, so giving the impression that he and his colleagues are in favour of regeneration of that area through the Circuit of Wales, I’m afraid, is not quite the reality of the situation whatsoever. Indeed, the Member’s staying rather quiet at the moment.

Indeed, I am exceptionally disappointed that the Member—[Interruption.]—again infers that it’s in the taxpayer’s interest to shoulder more of the risk of this project. The developers have already said that they can work to the principles set out, to ensure that we don’t have the project on balance sheet, to work to that principle. They have accepted it; they have said, yes, they can do it. So, I’m not sure what it is that’s driving this view that it’s better to expose the taxpayer to 100 per cent of a project rather than to 50 per cent and no more. It does not make sense whatsoever.

David Melding (Conservative, South Wales Central)

I have to say, observing this, Cabinet Secretary, that you’ve not come to the Chamber and said, ‘Wonderful; we have an agreement and on this basis, we can secure the project’. So, I think your grounds are somewhat suspect. I have to say that, in your answers to Mr Price and to Mr Hamilton, you have not been at your finest hour. There was some real scrutiny, particularly from Mr Hamilton, in his questions and I do think you need to answer them.

I have to say that it does amount to what is past practice. As we heard, the British Government has a long record as does, presumably, the Welsh Government and before that the Welsh Office, in terms of having to underwrite risk. We’ve had large projects before. Presumably, especially when these prestige projects are promised for very deprived areas, we look at it and it’s in the public interest then to provide that, underwriting that guarantee. I do think you need to get to some specifics very quickly on this. It has been a long time and, frankly, to come to this Chamber now and say, ‘We’ve just decided in the last half hour that this is the basis on which we can advance’—. Why on earth has this not been done before? If this project is viable, why haven’t you come in and praised the project and said that it’s now in a condition where it would be delivered?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

I did come into the Chamber and present our case. I said that this has potential to regenerate an entire area, we welcome it and our officials will be working with the Circuit of Wales to take it forward. But we have been able to reduce the level—I keep repeating myself and I do hope that Members will acknowledge it—of risk that the taxpayer is exposed to. That must surely be something that Members would welcome.

Presiding Officer, I’m minded to publish, as fully as I can, risk assessments concerning the project and also to carry out a review of the process, so that we can be confident that it has been pursued properly and fully.

David Rowlands (UKIP, South Wales East)

I want to address just a small part of this project, Cabinet Secretary, and notwithstanding the situation that you’ve outlined, and given that you’ve indicated that the door is always open, I therefore still find it very disappointing that Merthyr Tydfil County Borough Council are not offering their support to this prestigious project, especially as this is very much in their catchment area for jobs, et cetera. Has the Cabinet Secretary any information as to why they’ve not engaged?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Can I thank the Member for his question, but this is very much a matter for local authorities? Whether they choose to invest in an economic development programme is a matter for them. I cannot answer on behalf of that local authority, but of course they have an opportunity still, if they so wish, to invest in it.

Nick Ramsay (Conservative, Monmouth)

Can I thank the Cabinet Secretary for his statement update on this important issue? I’m pleased as well, Cabinet Secretary, that your door is still open to this project. You’ll know that Monmouthshire County Council has been very positive about the project’s potential. I do hear some of your reservations. Other Members have asked for clarification on many of the points that I was going to cover.

Can I ask you, firstly, do you accept that it’s important that we distinguish between the underwriting and the guaranteeing of risk, compared with the funding of a project? I think that certainly many people who I have spoken to over the last few days are not clear as to what the Welsh Government is saying that it cannot do. You are not talking about funding this project; you’re talking about refusing to guarantee a certain level of risk. You’ve been adamant about that in the teeth of some opposition in this Chamber. Could you be absolutely clear about why you have set that level of risk at the level that you have done so? What independent assessment has been made by appointed experts and what were their conclusions? You’ve said that you would publish some information, I believe, as to why you’ve come to the decision that you have. I think it’s important that Members of this Chamber do see what independent advice you’ve had.

In terms of state aid, concerns about that were expressed by your predecessor. As I understand it, the threshold that would risk a state aid challenge is no longer an obstacle. Can you confirm that is the case? In which case, it is good at least that the state aid issue has been taken out of this. Finally, what is your assessment of the level of external funding that is available? Does it include development funding, development partner funding, and contractor funding? If so, are we talking about around £20 million of external funding, or do you question that assessment?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Can I thank the Member for his question? He’s absolutely right: I think there is some misunderstanding about what it is that Welsh Government is being asked to provide resources for. It is underwriting; it is not funding of this project. I think there are many people in our communities who believe that a 50 per cent support underwriting or guarantee would amount to actual direct funding to the tune of something in the region of £185 million. It’s not. It’s about guaranteeing the funding from private capital. State aid is no longer an issue as a consequence of setting the bar below 80 per cent. In terms of the advice that we’ve received, the due diligence exercise was commissioned from Grant Thornton and Fourth Street. I have already given an undertaking to publish what I can—information that is not commercially sensitive—and I will do that.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Thank you to the Cabinet Secretary.

4. 4. Motion to Change the Name of the Reserve Policy and Legislation Committee

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

We move on to item 4, which is the motion to change the name of the Reserve Policy and Legislation Committee. I call on a member of the Business Committee to move the motion—Mark Reckless.

Mark Reckless (UKIP, South Wales East)

I move the motion formally on behalf of the Business Committee.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Thank you. The proposal therefore is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? No objections. The motion is agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

5. 5. Motions to Elect Members to Committees

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The next item is the motions to elect Members to committees. I call on a member of the Business Committee to move the motions—Mark Reckless.

Mark Reckless (UKIP, South Wales East)

I move the motions.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The proposal is to agree the motions. Does any Member object? There is no objection. Therefore, the motions are agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

6. 6. Debate by Individual Members under Standing Order 11.21(iv): The BBC in Wales

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The next item on the agenda is the debate by individual Members under Standing Order 11.21, the BBC in Wales, and I call on Bethan Jenkins to move the motion.

Bethan Sayed (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

Thanks. I’m grateful to be opening this debate today. We initiated this debate alongside other Members of the Assembly on a cross-party basis in the context of the BBC charter renewal process, seeking to put on the agenda the importance of our relations with the BBC in this new political term of the Assembly, and to show them that we are not going away and that we will be scrutinising not only them but all broadcast and media provision here in Wales in the near future.

It was interesting, doing the research for this debate, going back over some of the output that BBC Wales has provided to this country down the years. Some of you will know that, although BBC Wales was first established in 1964, in fact, the first broadcast in Wales was much earlier, in 1923, by a radio station called 5WA, which went on to become part of BBC programming. Some of the programmes we found would certainly jar today with our modern values. When we say that something is ‘of its time’, it can also mean that we have a vivid record of how people thought, talked and acted in a certain way in a certain period in Wales in the past. But that goes to the heart of today’s debate—that BBC Wales has a vital role to play in reflecting the lives, aspirations and challenges of the people of Wales. It is our belief that BBC Wales has, and must continue to play, a key role in ensuring that that continues.

There can be little doubt that BBC Wales has retreated from this role, not only in recent times but in many years. That much was admitted by Tony Hall in a speech that he gave some two years ago now in the National Assembly for Wales. The reason this motion came about was primarily so that we as Assembly Members could express our frustration at the lack of action that has been taken in the meantime to address the director general’s observations. In fact, he came to a committee of the last Assembly and said almost the same thing as he did two years ago—yes, there is a lack of portrayal, and, yes, we are going to sort it out. Well, my message today is that you do need to show that you are going to do that now. None of this is to denigrate what BBC Wales currently does, and I think that’s important to say. Some of its work in the past 10 years—‘Sherlock’, ‘Life on Mars’, ‘Ashes to Ashes’, ‘Being Human’—has been successful. But they are not about Wales, fundamentally, nor are they set in Wales. You’ll know this from ‘Doctor Who’. Of course, a show featuring a time-travelling alien as its central character couldn’t be expected to be confined to this side of Offa’s Dyke. But how many times have we sat there watching it and muttered, ‘That's not London; that's Roath’?

I think the senior management of BBC Wales does what it can, but the problem really is at the other end of the M4. We saw that only last week, I think, when the BBC announced that Wales would only have a voice on its board through a director of the nations and regions. This was their set-up before, and they've changed it back to that set-up. I would question whether this is a watering down of our influence on the BBC and whether we should have a non-executive director from Wales, as a public appointment is something that the Institute of Welsh Affairs has most recently raised in their report that we've had as Assembly Members today. As a new committee Chair for the communications committee—a committee with teeth, I hope it’ll be—we've already written to the BBC to ask them for details on this particular appointment and why they’ve made that decision without any consultation with Assembly Members or MPs or Governments, either on a UK level, as far as I understand, or on a Welsh Government level too.

So, is it really BBC Wales's distinctiveness that is in question here? And the question is, following on from that: what can we do about it here in Wales? The key to all of this must be accountability. As with our organisation, as with other non-governmental organisations and charities, they receive public funding, and therefore should be compelled to explain their decisions while mapping out their possible outcomes. Yesterday, as the last annual review of BBC Audience Council Wales was published, both Elan Closs Stephens, BBC national trustee for Wales, and Rhodri Talfan Davies, director of BBC Cymru Wales, said, and I quote, ‘There are significant challenges ahead, and one of these is to ensure that a far higher number of our stories are heard and seen on our screens in Wales, across the UK and beyond. Despite the financial limitations, this must be a priority for the next charter period.’

The role of the BBC in the life of the nation is crucial, and so it is only right and proper that we consider critically its work while defending it with vigour. Now, we must be determined and bold in our vision for its role in serving audiences in Wales in future. So, of course, as Assembly Members, we should welcome these comments as a statement of intent from BBC Wales, but words are not enough; we need to see action now from them. As Chair of the new Culture, Welsh Language and Communications Committee, I look forward to inviting both the national trustee and Wales director of the BBC to meet with Assembly Members and put some meat on the bones of what they have said. When they came to see us previously, they said that they would like to monitor outcomes and how the portrayal can be analysed and assessed, and I look forward to questioning them on that in future.

So, we need to be asking of them: how will the BBC go about this new task? Will it make itself more accountable to its audiences and to this Assembly? What will they do via the new charter? How will it set up its new governance arrangements? How will it measure their outcomes? Does it aim to react to the views and concerns of its audiences in a real and fundamental way? And how will BBC Wales ensure that its audiences are protected from any potential adverse decision making in London?

This week the BBC Audience Council Wales says, and I quote:

‘the BBC should be obliged to report to both the public in Wales and the National Assembly for Wales on an annual basis on the way in which all its services, both Network and BBC Cymru Wales, have fulfilled the BBC Public Purposes in Wales during the preceding year.’

This is something that I and other AMs have called for time and again for quite some time, and I'm sure we'll be doing it now in future. So, I'm hoping for a renewed focus from BBC Wales management and that this will lead to new innovations.

It has been suggested to me that there should be, potentially, something like a Welsh ‘The One Show’, or perhaps it could be an English equivalent of ‘Golwg 360’, because ‘Golwg 360’ has given us bespoke and unique news about Wales through the medium of Welsh. Both suggestions could increase audience participation in Welsh in public life.

This is a crucial time for BBC Wales to step up. There is no doubt in my mind that the preference for London-based newspapers in Wales over an indigenous media of questionable strength played a part in the referendum outcome. The result, as we can see, is that everyone who led us into this mess has deserted the sinking ship for the rest of us to patch up, bail out and keep sailing.

Simon Thomas (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

Would you like to give way?

Bethan Sayed (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

Yes.

Simon Thomas (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

Just on the point she's making around the relationship between the press and the BBC, she knows that the BBC has said, as part of the charter process, that it's interested in supporting local press by sharing of journalism, sharing of stories and so forth. Is that something that she has looked at with—? The new committee has only just started, I know, but is that something that’s of interest to the committee or of interest more widely, and has she got any views on how that might be taken forward now, particularly given the fact that we’re losing journalists from this place, for example, that are covering politics in Wales?

Bethan Sayed (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

I obviously don’t want to be speaking as some sort of dictator at the moment; we’re going to be talking as a committee. I’m sure people wouldn’t want to think that I would just tell everybody now what we’re going to be doing as a committee, but it’s something that—well, you know, power could go to my head—. It’s something we will be considering as a committee together. Because, of course, this was something that I read in the BBC consultation before this Assembly term. What I am concerned about, however, is the resources of the BBC then being shared too thinly, and whether the BBC could cope with that, and whether then it would be an excuse for some media organisations who I won’t name to then remove services because they say, ‘Well, the BBC are filling the gap there, so we don’t need to be there anymore’. [Interruption.] Okay.

Simon Thomas (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

Just on that point, for information, when I raised this matter, the matter of the ‘Daily Post’ journalist here, the response from the ‘Daily Post’ was, ‘Oh, we’re looking to share with the BBC’.

Bethan Sayed (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

Well, you’ve proved that point exactly, then.

Nid oeddwn i eisiau gorffen heb sôn am S4C yn y funud sydd gyda fi i orffen. Rhaid hefyd sôn am y ffaith eu bod nhw eisiau bod yn rhan o siartr y BBC a’u bod nhw’n credu y dylai fod cymal yn y siartr newydd yn sôn am eu hannibyniaeth o ran gweithredu ac yn sôn am yr hyn y maen nhw yn ei wneud. Yn ôl beth rwy’n clywed gan S4C, efallai nad yw Llywodraeth San Steffan 100 y cant o blaid hyn, ond os ydy S4C yn mynd, am y tymor byr o leiaf, i gael ei ariannu gan y ffi drwydded, pam nad ydyn nhw’n cael S4C fel rhan o’r siartr newydd honno? Rwy’n credu ei bod yn bwysig i sefydlu beth yw ei statws yn y dyfodol, beth yw cynllun gwaith S4C i’r dyfodol, ac efallai bod y Gweinidog yn cael ateb ar hyn, neu’n gallu siarad gyda S4C a DCMS am sefyllfa strategol S4C i’r dyfodol er mwyn sicrhau eu bod nhw’n cael y gefnogaeth y maen nhw’n ei haeddu. Diolch yn fawr.

Lee Waters (Labour, Llanelli)

Diolch, Lywydd. Can I pay tribute to Bethan Jenkins for the interest she’s shown in this area over recent years? I’m very pleased that this Assembly has now established a committee with communication specifically within its remit, and I’m very pleased to be serving on it, and look forward to serving with her.

As the motion notes, in the last 10 years the amount of money invested in making programmes for Wales in English has been cut by a quarter, as has the number of hours broadcast. At a time when Wales as a nation has never been more clearly defined, the sources of information for debate and scrutiny about our country are drying up. This is serious.

The director general of the BBC, Tony Hall, has acknowledged that this is an unsustainable situation. Two years ago, in April 2014, I attended his speech at the Pierhead when he conceded that there are some aspects of national life in Wales that are not sufficiently captured by the BBC, including comedy, entertainment and culture. This, he said, inhibited our creative potential and our ability to harness our diverse talents.

Fast forward two years and Tony Hall has done nothing to remedy those deficiencies he identified. On 12 May this year he wrote to the First Minister to let him know how he was getting on, and again he identified deficiencies, that, as he put it, the full diversity of the UK’s cultures and communities are not properly reflected on the BBC—these are big statements for a director general to make—and that funding for English-language content made in Wales has dropped to, quote, ‘unsustainable levels’. But, still, no detail on how this will be remedied. Now, let’s put this into context. Senior BBC executives have form. Six years ago, Joanna Bennett, then director of vision—a title straight out of ‘W1A’—said that the Roath Lock drama village would deliver a

‘creative benefit in terms of the voices we hear, the stories we tell, the pictures we paint’.

Beautifully crafted words—seductive empathy. But, as this week’s valedictory report from the Audience Council Wales shows, six years on, these are hollow words. Six years on, the audience council says, this week, that there is a:

‘Paucity of portrayal of Wales in Network TV and Radio output’,

particularly in terms of drama and comedy. Indeed, it says that hardly any regional drama and comedy programmes have been produced in Wales in the last year. Last month, two thirds of the Members of this National Assembly wrote to Lord Hall to call on him to follow through his words with actions. His response? Last week, he dropped the directors of Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland from the corporation’s executive team. A reversal of the decision to give them seats at the top table only in 2008, which was at the time—I quote—designed to

‘bring together the nations and regions of the UK.’

Does he think we’re daft? As the BBC never tire of telling us, Welsh audiences are their most loyal. The Beeb matters to us, but BBC executives are not doing a convincing job of showing that Wales matters to them. They are taking us for granted. The BBC management has so far shown itself tone deaf to the changing shape of the UK. There needs to be a strong Welsh voice on the new BBC board; an independent voice not appointed by the UK Government, as their White Paper suggests, and the House of Commons Welsh Affairs Committee sadly and unwisely endorsed, but, as the IWA’s respected media policy group recommends today, through the normal public appointments process, with the names submitted to the Welsh Government for approval and, I would add, subject to pre-appointment scrutiny by the Assembly’s new Culture, Welsh Language and Communications Committee.

This is, as they have said, an unsustainable situation. As they have said, the BBC matters to Wales disproportionately. They acknowledge that, but words are no longer enough. Diolch.

Russell George (Conservative, Montgomeryshire)

I’m pleased to take part in this co-sponsored debate today regarding the BBC’s role in Wales as a broadcaster, which has a unique role in reflecting the lives of the people of Wales both in English and Welsh on television, radio and online. I sound a bit like a radio jingle saying that. I do very much agree with the words of Bethan Jenkins and Lee Waters today. I’m very pleased that we have a committee set up dedicated to broadcasting and I’m delighted to have seen that agreement reached. Although I’m not on the committee, I’ll take a great interest in the committee’s work.

I’d like to focus my contribution on the way in which the BBC, as Wales’s only public service broadcaster, has a role in not only bringing audiences across the UK together, but in reflecting the diversity of Wales to itself and to the rest of the country. Yesterday, the BBC Audience Council Wales published its annual review, which summed up the challenges confronting the broadcaster. On the one hand, the BBC makes a significant contribution to Wales’s network production through programmes, as Bethan’s mentioned, such as ‘Doctor Who’, ‘Casualty’, ‘War and Peace’ and ‘Sherlock’; all award-winning programmes I think we should be immensely proud of. But it’s clear that network production should not be a substitute for programming made specifically for viewers in Wales, especially in the context of increased devolution, a weak paper press, a weak commercial radio sector and generally a reduction in plurality of viewpoint.

Given the BBC’s dominance in Wales and the unsustainable—I agree with Lee Waters—the 25 per cent cut in funding for English-language programmes for Wales over the last decade, to which Lord Hall, as has been alluded, has previously referred, it has the potential to have, or is having, a disproportionate impact on Wales given the lack of plurality compared to other areas of the UK such as London, which has a large amount of media sources and news and non-news programming.

The audience council also recognised that the BBC must do more to reflect modern Wales and the lives of its people in the next charter period. It must do more to address the lack of portrayal of contemporary Wales on network tv and radio output and in non-news tv programming such as drama and, in particular, comedy as well.

It must be acknowledged that BBC journalism has improved significantly since the publication of the King report, recognising that the different nations of the UK and the way in which non-news programming has reflected all parts of the UK has been, I think, sometimes lacking. But, listening to Radio 2 news last week, when I was in the car, I could hear reporting on Wales’s football success, and it was all a very positive news story, but it was done as if Wales was a third party—it was worded in that way. The news reporter worded it in that sense. If it had been the other way around, it would have been worded very differently. Indeed, the commitment of a commissioning editor responsible for television drama in each nation, with portrayal objectives, is, I think, a positive step in ensuring that all network programming accurately reflects the cultural diversity of all the nations of the UK.

It is encouraging that the BBC has made an explicit commitment to adopt the recommendations, including a stronger voice for Wales in the new unitary board, and a national licence for Wales, which would underpin the accountability for services provided in each nation. The corporation’s recent proposals to spend proportionately more on dedicated services in each nation and to spend more on English-language programming in Wales is, of course, welcome, but I fully agree with the views of Lee Waters and Bethan Jenkins that words are not enough. There needs to be action, and there needs to be a concrete financial commitment.

Jenny Rathbone (Labour, Cardiff Central)

The licence fee is not perfect, but it’s better than anything else that anybody else has proposed, because it’s absolutely vital that the BBC remains independent of government of all kinds, because one of its key roles is to hold politicians and Government to account, and it cannot be fettered by the idea that, because the BBC is robust in uncovering things that are untoward, they might get their licence fee slashed. In recent times, there have been lots of risks of that happening.

I think that it’s underplayed just how important the BBC is as an institution in our public life. Professor Brian Cox, who has done more for popular understanding of science than perhaps anybody else in recent memory, described the BBC as a public institution first, and a media company second, and I completely agree with that. We have to understand that those three letters—BBC—are probably the best recognised logo anywhere in the world, and we should dismantle it at our risk. They may not be as effective at selling the Wales brand as getting into the semi-finals of a major sporting competition, but there’s no doubt that the way in which the BBC both projects Wales to the wider world and projects back onto our own understanding of our own Welshness is seriously important.

I take issue with Bethan Jenkins on one issue, which is that we cannot explain the Brexit vote based on the fact that all the newspapers were published in London, because obviously London, in the main, voted to remain. I think it’s much more complicated than that, but it’s certainly the case that, because the majority of newspapers—and there’s a declining readership of newspapers—are produced in London, the coverage of Wales is miniscule and extremely impoverished. So, that is why it is doubly important that we have a very strong broadcasting element in Wales in order to enable people to understand the world that we live in and the politics that we operate in.

We have to recall that, in the days before the Broadcasting Act 1990, the ITV companies, too, were obliged to have regional content, and that helped reinforce the vigour and rigour with which the BBC undertook its obligations. Since the disappearance of the regional ITV companies under Mrs Thatcher’s slashing, really, we’ve got an entirely impoverished ITV regionally, and it has enabled this withering on the vine of the BBC radio and television coverage. It’s almost surprising that they manage to do as much as they do with the little that they have, but it’s absolutely vital to the public discourse about what it is that makes up our public realm that we do have radio and television, because with 25 per cent of our population functionally illiterate, that is the way the majority of people receive their information and their understanding of the world. And it is extremely dangerous when we go out campaigning and we listen to people telling us, ‘We’re not voting Labour any longer because of the cuts you’ve made to the disabled’. It takes your breath away, but that is the level of misunderstanding about what is going on in the world, and who is making decisions on people’s behalf, that it got us to where we were on the referendum.

There was an excellent website provided by the BBC to try and deconstruct the claims and counterclaims of the ‘leave’ and ‘remain’ teams, but I very much doubt whether most people who were struggling to understand what this complicated referendum was about ever got there, and it would have been so much better if we had addressed some of the counterintuitive inspirations for why people were voting ‘leave’, which were mainly from people who lived in areas where there were very few immigrants, and yet people were inspired to vote ‘leave’ on the grounds that it was going to put a stop to immigration. There would have been plenty of programmes that could have explored that contradiction, and might have enabled people to have a better understanding of what was at stake.

But I think we have to go back to the fact that the Reithian role for the BBC to inform, educate and entertain has to be kept as one, and we cannot have the BBC fragmented into only doing serious programmes and not doing popular ones. So, I think it’s absolutely vital that this new board is, in the main, done by a public appointments process. I understand that the Government will need to appoint the chair, but the rest of the board, including the representative for Wales, need to be appointed by the public appointments process.