Senedd Cymru (Welsh Parliament), 14 September 2016

349 contributions from 46 members. The official report.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Order. I call the National Assembly to order.

1. 1. Questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Environment and Rural Affairs

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The first item this afternoon is questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Environment and Rural Affairs. The first question is from Nathan Gill.

Nathan Gill (Independent, North Wales)

1. Will the Minister make a statement on the Welsh Government’s policy to prevent littering in Wales? OAQ(5)0025(ERA)

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Thank you. Action to prevent littering is focused on both enforcement programmes and collaboration across key partner organisations working to change public attitudes and behaviour through community involvement and education. Encouraging people to take pride in their local environment and to take action themselves will lead to stronger and longer lasting improvements.

Nathan Gill (Independent, North Wales)

Thank you very much. Next month, my local authority on Anglesey is moving to three-weekly rubbish collections, having decided against four-weekly collections for now. In August, all but three local authorities met their targets for recycling, which is very good—I mean, that’s a good achievement—including all of the north Wales authorities. In Anglesey’s case, we also met that target. We did that whilst collecting every fortnight. Can you people explain to the people of Anglesey why it is that we are now going to be moving on to three-weekly collections, which feels to me a bit like punishing people who have actually achieved what they set out to achieve?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

It’s not for me to explain to the people of Anglesey why they’re going to three-weekly rubbish collections; that’s for Anglesey council to explain. However, you’ll be aware that this is recycling week, and if people are recycling properly, bearing in mind we have weekly recycling collections—I think we’ve got a very good story to tell on recycling in Wales; we’re the fourth best country in Europe—then maybe there wouldn’t be so much rubbish in the black bins. That’s what we’re concentrating on now, because 50 per cent of the rubbish that goes into black bins, we think, could also be recycled.

Lee Waters (Labour, Llanelli)

Minister, having spent many happy hours walking 10 miles a day through the streets of Llanelli during the election campaign, I witnessed at first hand the litter problem we have in the town. I’m now discussing with the local authority setting up on a cross-party basis a litter taskforce for the town. One of the issues that comes back time and again on Facebook from residents is the unintended consequence of the guidelines about the number of black bags that can be put out and the result this has on increased fly-tipping in back lanes. Could the Minister give some thought, when applying recycling targets, to what the unintended consequences might be and how they may be mitigated?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

We certainly don’t want to see an increase in fly-tipping, and I commend you for organising a litter taskforce. As I say, I think we’ve got a really good news story to tell on recycling. It’s up to local authorities how they organise their collection of rubbish and recycling and it’s also up to local authorities how they enforce the laws in relation to litter, because it is a crime to litter. I think, again, we need to make sure that local authorities are doing that part of their work also.

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

My question actually follows on from both questions that have been asked previously. Moves to trial four-weekly collections in Conwy County Borough Council is causing huge uproar, with many families now actually worried about how they’re going to be able to cope. Concerns are obviously about overflowing bins and increased fly-tipping. Fly-tipping in Wales costs the environment £70 million annually. What is your reaction to the switch proposals for four-weekly bin collections—the first in the UK? How are you working with local authorities to improve on what is only a 0.2 per cent success rate on enforcing and prosecuting those guilty of fly-tipping?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

I refer the Member to my two previous answers. Whether Conwy council have four-weekly, three-weekly, two-weekly collections is a matter for Conwy council. I don’t tell them what to do. Welsh Government doesn’t tell them what to do. In relation to local authorities and the 0.2 per cent, as I say, littering is a crime and it’s up to local authorities to make sure that they use all their powers of enforcement.

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Over the summer, Newgale beach in Pembrokeshire was one of the first in Wales to participate in a campaign to tidy up our beaches. It asked people to join with this campaign to collect litter for just two minutes. I did this over the weekend in Whitesands. I would like to ask whether you’d be willing to applaud this campaign and whether you would also remind people that we wouldn’t need to do this if people took their rubbish home in the first place

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Absolutely. I think that’s a really important point in relation to the issue we have with it. I’m really delighted to hear about the very collaborative approach that you had in your scheme in Pembrokeshire. I think it’s an easy way of improving the quality of our environment, just one piece at a time. Two minutes isn’t a great deal of time to ask people to volunteer. So, while that is an individual effort, collectively that brings about a big difference to one of our most precious assets.

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

2. Will the Minister provide an update on the Welsh Government’s local energy programme? OAQ(5)0028(ERA)

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Thank you. The Welsh Government Local Energy service launched in January of this year, supporting renewable energy projects delivering local benefit. Our ongoing support since 2010 has helped communities deliver eight completed schemes. Eight more are currently under construction, with a further nine to be constructed by the end of 2017.

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

I thank the Cabinet Secretary for that response, and also for her recent visit to Awel Aman Tawe, in my constituency, to mark the package of support that the Welsh Government made available. As she will know, there is a good deal of anxiety in the sector about the long-term effects of the UK Government’s changes to feed-in tariffs and enterprise investment scheme eligibility. What assessment is the Welsh Government undertaking of the impact of those changes on the sector in Wales and any changes the Government may need to make to its support package in the longer term?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Thank you. Well, my officials are constantly monitoring the effect of UK Government energy policy to ensure that the sector can continue to deliver for Wales. I think there has been a lack of progress because of that change in support that we’ve seen coming from the UK Government. We’re looking at models that can support renewable energy development to continue. So, for example, Welsh Government is supporting the Energy Local trial in Bethesda, on the local production and use of that energy within the community, to find out whether that model can help projects work, without then having to rely on subsidies such as feed-in tariffs. We’re also considering the shape of support beyond the current Local Energy service that we have, which takes us to December 2017. Clearly, whatever support we have coming forward will need to reflect the change that we’re seeing in the energy sector.

David Melding (Conservative, South Wales Central)

Minister, I think in most countries that have succeeded in encouraging the generation of power locally, they have adapted the market to give an incentive to allow this, including control or access to the grid. I know these powers are not with you, but are you discussing with the other jurisdictions ways in which we could open up the market and encourage local generation?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

I haven’t had that discussion since I came into portfolio, but I know my officials are actively having those discussions not just across the devolved administrations, but also with the UK Government.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

I now call on the party spokespeople to question the Cabinet Secretary, and first this week is the Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Simon Thomas.

Simon Thomas (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

Thank you, Presiding Officer. Cabinet Secretary, you may be aware that the National Farmers Union Cymru are currently conducting a campaign to encourage everyone to buy at least five items of produce from Wales. Can you name the last five items of Welsh produce that you bought, and what are you doing as Minister to ensure that customers know that their produce is from Wales?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

I can. I was in committee this morning, and Simon will have heard me say this, but I was in Morrisons in Wrexham on Saturday, and, as you know, I visited Puffin Produce in Pembroke over the summer, where they have their very recognisable packaging. So, I bought leeks and new potatoes, and I also bought a cauliflower—that’s three. I bought some Welsh lamb. I’m trying to think of the fifth quick—maybe some scallops. [Laughter.]

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Ynys Môn)

Halen Môn.

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Halen Môn—yes.

Simon Thomas (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

Halen Môn to season the potatoes—that would do, wouldn’t it?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

The Member for Ynys Môn is correct actually.

Simon Thomas (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

Excellent. And a little cider to wash it down perhaps.

Turning to the current situation that we face, the Westminster Government have stated clearly that single farm payments and environmental payments under the current common agricultural policy will continue from their point of view until 2020. Can you therefore confirm in the Chamber today that it is Welsh Government policy to do exactly the same thing and that there will be no change to single farm payments in Wales or to payments under the rural development programme until 2020?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Yes, well, as the Member is aware from committee this morning, we are having those discussions now. A great deal of work and activity has taken place over the summer with the farming sector, looking at what we will do post Brexit, and, clearly, the issues around subsidy are very important to our farming industry, and it’s very important that we support them. They are, basically, our food producers, and it’s really important for our food security that we do that.

Simon Thomas (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

I thank the Cabinet Secretary for that, but I didn’t hear a guarantee of the payments continuing until 2020. If she is just able to confirm that, it would be useful for everyone concerned, I think, because we can then discuss what comes afterwards, but at least we know what’s happening now.

The other issue I wanted to raise with her was that there was some confusion from the First Minister yesterday around access to the single market, which may be through a free trade arrangement, which can involve tariffs, or membership of the single market, which is something that comes, of course, with freedom of movement. Within freedom of movement, does she agree with me, and also the Wales Governance Centre, that migrant workers play an important part in the rural economy? The Wales Governance Centre says this:

‘Research on EU migrants to Wales shows no associated increase in unemployment of UK nationals in the sector, with migrants entering hard-to-fill vacancies’,

and, of course, seasonal vacancies. There are 34,000 non-UK born workers employed in this sector. So, what discussions have you had with the Westminster Government for the continuation of this important migrant workforce for Welsh agriculture, and food production as well of course, which is associated with it, and doesn’t this rather beg the question, as we are talking about potentially a visa-based system, or a points-based system, that, really, Wales needs a say, if not its own migration policy?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Thank you. Sorry, I thought you said ‘beyond 2020’. Absolutely; we know we’re getting that money until 2020. We have that assurance, and, absolutely, that’s the case. In relation to your question regarding migrant workers, I think you’re absolutely right. Both the agricultural sector, and probably more so the food processing sector, relies on migrant workers, and they’re again part of our ongoing discussions as to how we take the sector forward post Brexit. But, clearly, it is a very important issue, and I know both the agricultural sector and the food sector are very concerned about how they are going to fill those very hard and difficult positions.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The Welsh Conservatives’ spokesperson, Paul Davies.

Paul Davies (Conservative, Preseli Pembrokeshire)

Diolch, Lywydd. Cabinet Secretary, following the EU referendum vote in June, you said that Brexit offered the chance for a made-in-Wales approach to farming. In light of that statement, what specific action has the Welsh Government taken over the summer to eradicate bovine TB in Wales?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

As you know, we have our eradication scheme, and I’ve already said that we’re having a close look at that, and I’ll be making a statement in this Chamber next month.

Paul Davies (Conservative, Preseli Pembrokeshire)

Well, making a statement in the next few weeks isn’t good enough, Cabinet Secretary, because the Government’s own figures—your figures—show a 37 per cent increase in the number of cattle slaughtered in Wales in the 12 months to May this year, and, in my own county of Pembrokeshire, there was a staggering 61 per cent increase on the previous year. Now, it’s clear to me that this Welsh Government and successive Labour-led Welsh Governments just don’t do rural affairs, given their failure to address this devastating disease, which continues to blight our farmers. Therefore, will you now commit to pursuing a more comprehensive package for dealing with bovine TB that includes a holistic approach to dealing with this disease, and will you confirm that no option is off the table, including a possible managed badger cull, so that we can actually tackle the disease in cattle and in wildlife?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

What the Member also fails to mention is that we’ve seen a 16 per cent decrease in new herd incidents, and whilst I don’t want to see an increase in the number of cattle that are slaughtered, given the fact that we are testing so hard, I don’t think we can expect not to see an increase in the reactors. I’ve already said that I’m considering all options over the summer. I’ve said that many times since I came into post four months ago, and I will be making a statement next month.

Paul Davies (Conservative, Preseli Pembrokeshire)

Cabinet Secretary, there are very real concerns for the future of the Welsh farming industry should this issue not be dealt with effectively and efficiently? There are concerns it will put Welsh farmers at even more of a disadvantage once we leave the European Union. So, how will you, as the Cabinet Secretary for rural affairs, guarantee that Welsh farmers will not be put at a disadvantage because of the Welsh Government’s failure so far to tackle this disease? And will you confirm for the industry today that bovine TB will be tackled in this Assembly, so that farmers can be confident that they actually won’t suffer weaker trade deals once we actually leave the European Union?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

I think it is being dealt with in the manner to which you refer already, and has been for several years. The issue you raise around trade after we leave the EU, I think, is a very pertinent one and one that I’ve already discussed with the sector and will continue to discuss at both the ministerial level and with my officials also.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

UKIP spokesperson, Neil Hamilton.

Neil Hamilton (UKIP, Mid and West Wales)

Of course, talk is one thing and action is another. We’ve seen lots of talk and no action. Actually, the position is even worse, I’m afraid, than that which Paul Davies pointed out because today the figures have been announced for the next month after May and they’re even worse. In the 12 months to June 2016, there were 9,476 cattle slaughtered in Wales—a 43 per cent increase on the same period in the 12 months to last year. So, what decisive action is going to be taken in this area? Each one of these cases is a tragedy for the farmers concerned and indeed, of course, for the animals that are slaughtered. So, this is something that I think is all too often neglected or indeed forgotten by people in the Labour Party. Just because farmers in general don’t vote Labour, they’ve got no time for them at all.

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Clearly, the Member for Mid and West Wales wasn’t listening to my answers to Paul Davies. I don’t agree with you that there’s been no action. Again, you just quote the 43 per cent, but you fail to mention the 16 per cent decrease in new herd instances also.

Neil Hamilton (UKIP, Mid and West Wales)

At 740 new herds, in numerical terms, that’s 740 new sets of tragedy and I don’t regard that as in any way acceptable. As regards the Brexit negotiations that are going on, does the Cabinet Secretary not understand that this could be absolutely fatal in these negotiations for the interests of Welsh farmers? Because we all remember what happened with BSE, that even long after BSE ceased to be a problem, the French wouldn’t allow British beef to go into France and I can easily see how, in the course of these negotiations, the situation on TB in cattle in Wales in particular could become a major block on the capacity of the British Government to negotiate tariff-free access for Welsh farming products.

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

I think it’s a great shame that we’re having to have post-Brexit negotiations at all, to be perfectly honest with you. You heard my answer to Paul Davies. I do understand concerns about that and I will continue to have those discussions. It’s very early days in the post-Brexit discussions, as you are aware.

Neil Hamilton (UKIP, Mid and West Wales)

I’m well aware, of course, that that Cabinet Secretary was on the losing side of the argument with the Welsh people over whether it was a good thing for Wales to remain in the EU. It was notable that the biggest pro-Brexit votes were in seats that Labour has traditionally regarded as their strongest heartland seats, which shows you how out of touch with their own traditional supporters the modern Labour Party is.

But, on another issue that is also of great interest to Welsh farmers, the nitrate-vulnerable zones, we were told that there was to be a consultation exercise on this. Can the Cabinet Secretary tell me when that is going to start, if it is going to start? Does she understand that this also could mean a massive increase in costs for farmers at a time when farming incomes have been plummeting?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

We will be consulting later this month.

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

3. Will the Minister make a statement on the effectiveness of TAN1? OAQ(5)0024(ERA)

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

The revised technical advice note 1 provides a consistent methodology for local planning authorities to annually assess their housing land supply based on the housing requirement figures set out in their local development plans.

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

Diolch, Cabinet Secretary. The knock-on effects, of course, of the changes to the housing land availability calculation under the revised TAN 1 are now starting to come into play for residents in Conwy and in all authorities across Wales. In response to the TAN 1 consultation, local planning authorities generally disagreed with the sole use of the residual methodology for calculating housing land supply—a method that, according to the Welsh Local Government Association, lacks a degree of realism and can be distorted by build rates to produce unrealistic and unachievable results, whilst at the same time seeing the loss of many of our greenfield sites. Given such a position, Cabinet Secretary, will you look at this in the forthcoming October review of the local development plan for local authorities across Wales and actually put some more common sense into the process? Because, believe me, the sites that are coming forward now in Conwy will be devastating and there’ll be huge losses to our greenfield sites.

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

I think the reason for having the revision of TAN 1, you’ve just absolutely said. I think that because sites weren’t coming forward, that was why the technical advice note was revised and I think it’s taken the cover off what was taking place before. So, I think it is bedding in now. It has set out a methodology for carrying out the review. That can be applied consistently across Wales, and I think that does provide local authorities with a key indicator for monitoring the delivery of housing to meet the requirements that are set out in their LDP.

Siân Gwenllian (Plaid Cymru, Arfon)

There is a need to increase the housing supply in Wales, of course, but those houses have to be the right type of houses and they have to be in the right location in order to meet the true needs of the people of Wales. In your statement on the planning Act in July of this year, you stated that

‘The preparation of Strategic Development Plans should be given high priority by Local Planning Authorities in areas which have completed the first round of Local Development Plans and have issues which would benefit from being considered over a wider geographic area than a single Authority.’

Do I read into that, therefore, that you now see the need for the balance to be restored in the local planning system, where population projections have often been swollen out of all proportion and have led to harmful developments, first of all in our urban areas because too much greenfield land is having to be used and, secondly, in Welsh-speaking communities, where there’s a threat to the language balance?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Thank you. The strategic development plans came from the planning Act, as you said, and it was to try and get local authorities to work much more closely cross border. Unfortunately, at the current time, there doesn’t seem to be much discussion between local authorities, apart from the 10 south-east Wales local authorities in relation to the city deal—I think that’s part of their discussion around it. So, I have asked my officials to have discussions with local authorities to see what more we can do to encourage discussions regarding SDPs.

Michelle Brown (UKIP, North Wales)

The local development plan provides residents with a framework within which to challenge planning applications and have a say in what happens in their area. Without the LDP, residents are disadvantaged and developers have the potential to ride roughshod over local authorities and residents. What measures does the Welsh Government have in place to ensure that each local authority has an LDP in place?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

It’s very important that LDPs are in place. My officials monitor this very carefully. We have just a handful, now, of local authorities who haven’t got them in, and we monitor that to ensure that they come in within the timeline. What an adopted plan means is that local authorities and communities can then positively steer and influence the future to their benefit, rather than being dictated to by others, as you said.

Simon Thomas (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

4. Will the Minister make a statement on scallop fishing in Cardigan Bay? OAQ(5)0029(ERA) [W]

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Thank you. The recent scallop fishery consultation saw a significant level of responses. My officials have analysed all of the responses together with the latest scientific evidence. I am currently considering advice and will issue a written statement once I have made a decision on the proposed fishery in Cardigan bay.

Simon Thomas (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

Thank you. Many people are awaiting this decision on both sides of the argument, as it were. May I just place on record that I have met with petitioners, although some people think that I haven’t, but that you, as Minister, haven’t met with those petitioners? I think that is the case. Are you now willing, now that the consultation is over, to meet those petitioners who want a ban on scallop fishing in Cardigan bay, to see what their arguments are? Do you think that the problem that we have here in finding solutions to complex issues stems from the fact that the Government doesn’t yet have a national marine plan and, therefore, we don’t yet have the tools to tackle the problems that emerge when people disagree on the best way to maintain habitats and maintain fishing too?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

I was asked literally by tens and tens of people to meet to discuss this and, as you are aware, my diary just wouldn’t allow it. I’d be very happy to meet with you if you wanted to come along and bring some of the concerns forward, because it just was not possible to meet with everybody. However, we have taken each one of the responses into consideration. It is a very complex issue, and I’m very keen to have a marine plan. I’ve already met this week with officials, and you will be aware that it’s currently being drafted. The result of the European referendum has caused a bit of a hiatus in bringing forward the marine plan, but I do hope to consult on the draft plan probably in the middle of next year.

Joyce Watson (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Cabinet Secretary, in June, I was honoured to be appointed Wales Environment Link’s species champion for the bottle-nosed dolphin. On Friday, weather permitting—who knows—I will visit Cardigan bay’s special area of conservation. You will know that that bay is home to semi-resident populations and it’s a particularly important nursery ground for females and their calves. So, my question to you before my visit on Friday is: what message can I send back to the people who are concerned about protecting both the iconic species and that special area of conservation, that should the Government decide to allow scallop fishing further within that special area of conservation we won’t return to the damage that was clearly evident in 2010 that actually reduced scallop fishing within that area?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Well, I wasn’t offered the blue-nosed dolphin. I’m looking at my colleague, Lee Waters, just in case: he was the hedgehog. But, I think the point you raise is a very important one and it’s about getting that balance and I am aware there were difficulties back in 2009-10 with scallop fishing. I think the message you can take back is that we are considering all responses and we want to get that balance right. It’s not just about one species: it’s about all our species.

Paul Davies (Conservative, Preseli Pembrokeshire)

Cabinet Secretary, as part of the consultation there was some discussion about the establishment of a management advisory board to assist the Welsh Government in the oversight of the fishery. Can you, therefore, confirm that it is still the Welsh Government’s intention to create this board and, if so, can you confirm and update Members on where we are in terms of its development, if that is the case?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

As I say, I will be issuing a written statement and that detail will be within the statement.

Angela Burns (Conservative, Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire)

5. What steps is the Minister able to take in order to mitigate any consequential negative effects on the environment caused by business developments? OAQ(5)0020(ERA)

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Our Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015 and the Environment (Wales) Act 2016 enable Wales’s resources to be managed in a more proactive, sustainable and joined-up way. Our statutory climate change targets and carbon budgeting help provide certainty and clarity for investment and business. This legislation gives us one of the most progressive and comprehensive statutory frameworks in the world.

Angela Burns (Conservative, Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire)

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. I’m sure, like me, you are a great supporter of rural businesses. However, there is a lot of tension between some of the very large rural businesses, a number of which I have written to you about in the past, and the impact they have and, indeed, I would go so far as to say, the blight effect that they have on local residents in the areas that they are next to. I’ve raised these as matters with both local authorities and with Natural Resources Wales to ensure that these rural businesses actually behave within the law, within the guidance, and try to mitigate the effect of their business upon their communities. Both Natural Resources Wales and the local councils have come back to me again and again and again and said they do not have the statutory powers to take such actions. Cabinet Secretary, I wonder if you would please review what statutory powers these organisations have so that they are able to undertake comprehensive and fair enforcement, not to stifle business, because none of us want to see that, but to ensure that the tension between a business and the local community that it operates in is fair and equal for all.

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Yes, I absolutely agree with you. It is really important that they have those powers. I’ll certainly look into Natural Resources Wales to make sure that they have those powers. I am aware that you have written to me on several occasions about businesses in your own constituencies and I know we have corresponded. But, I’ll be certainly very happy to look because it’s really important, for instance, that environmental impact assessment regulations—. They require projects to have very—. You know, the ones that are very likely to have significant impact on the environment, they have to be subject to consent before they can proceed, so it’s really important that this is going ahead.

Bethan Sayed (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

Cabinet Secretary, I’ve had a number of people approaching me in the Aberavon area who are concerned about the location of the turbines in the Swansea bay development because they are concerned that it will impact the flow of water into the sea and how that will impact their ability to be part of the processes that they enjoy in that area. Have you had an opportunity to look at that issue of the tidal lagoon and have you been able to discuss that with them to ensure that that wouldn’t happen if the tidal lagoon development were to go ahead?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

I had my first meeting this week in relation to to the Swansea bay tidal lagoon, but I didn’t look in depth at the point you raise. But I’m very happy to write to you—to do so and to write you.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

David Rowlands.

David Rowlands (UKIP, South Wales East)

Sorry, no.

Lee Waters (Labour, Llanelli)

6. What work is the Welsh Government undertaking in relation to precision agriculture? OAQ(5)0030(ERA)

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Thank you. Precision agriculture is one of the many modern farming practices that make production more efficient. The Welsh Government supports this through Farming Connect. Examples include toward precision farming in ruminant livestock, run at Aberystwyth University Gogerddan farm, and variable-rate fertiliser use in grassland, at Troed y Rhiw farm in Aberaeron.

Lee Waters (Labour, Llanelli)

Thank you, Minister. Some estimates suggest that farm production could increase by as much as 30 per cent through the use of big data and analytics. Leading thinkers in innovation are identifying precision agriculture as the most important development in modern farming, encouraging the efficient use of scarce resources and minimising the use of harmful chemicals. I’d urge the Minister to be bold in this area in encouraging a new industry to Wales. Would the Minister convene a roundtable of experts to make sure that we are doing all we can to be at the forefront of this important innovation?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

I think there is probably quite a bit of work going on in the background, so I’d certainly consider doing that, but you are quite right, it uses satellite precision data, remote sensing devices, proximal data-gathering technology, and it does enable people to make decisions in a different way. I think you’re right; we need to optimise the returns on the inputs, so I’ll certainly consider that.

Darren Millar (Conservative, Clwyd West)

Minister, I’m very pleased to hear that you’re paying attention to this very important field, but what work are you specifically doing, or your officials doing, to engage with the education sectors—not just higher education, but also the further education sector—in maximising the potential benefits that precision agriculture can bring to the yields, particularly in terms of crops, across Wales in the future? I know that there’s a great deal of interest in Coleg Llysfasi in my own constituency in this emerging field of agriculture, and I just wonder what work, specifically, you might be doing with them.

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

I haven’t done any specific work with the FE sector. I’m aware the example I gave you was with the HE sector, and we’re doing quite a lot across several universities. But I’ll certainly look into it and write to the Member.

John Griffiths (Labour, Newport East)

7. Will the Minister make a statement on Welsh Government policy to improve the environment in inner urban areas in Wales? OAQ(5)0026(ERA)

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Thank you. Our policy is to deliver programmes that bring together local people, groups, businesses and organisations to deliver services to improve where they live or work. Empowering people to protect their own surroundings helps us tackle environmental inequality. I also issued a written statement yesterday on the launch of a 12-week consultation on how Wales can do better in the management of air and noise pollution.

John Griffiths (Labour, Newport East)

Thank you for that, Cabinet Secretary. I believe the doorstep environment, as it’s termed, matters very much to very many people in Wales, given the number of people who live in those particular environments. I believe that if they feel positive about their environment and view it as a quality environment then they are far more likely to feel interested and engaged in the environment in general, and that translates to good recycling performance, for example. So, I wonder if you could tell the Chamber, Cabinet Secretary, how the work of Cynefin, for example, which I think did a lot of good work in terms of those doorstep environments, will be built upon as we go forward, given that that particular scheme no longer exists?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Yes, thank you. The Cynefin programme piloted a new way, I think, of involving communities in the local delivery programmes and services that were intended to benefit them. We’ve now extended our contract with Severn Wye Energy Agency for a 12-month period in order to take forward a delivery support programme across Wales that will build on the learning and the expertise that was developed in the Cynefin programme. I think the momentum that we did see in the Cynefin programme must be spread through the influence of the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015 and that momentum must carry on. We are now working with the FG commissioner to further spread best practice in community involvement.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Neil McEvoy.

Mohammad Asghar.

Mohammad Asghar (Conservative, South Wales East)

Thank you, Madam Presiding Officer. One way of improving the environment in inner urban areas is to encourage the setting up of community green spaces. Tesco is using the money raised by its carrier bag charge to support community participation in the development and use of open spaces. Will the Cabinet Secretary join me in congratulating Tesco, and what more can the Welsh Government do to increase the number of community green spaces in inner urban areas in Wales?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Yes, thank you, and I certainly will commend Tesco. I visited one in my own constituency, supported by Tesco. We are very much committed to working with local communities in order to enhance green spaces in our urban areas.

Julie Morgan (Labour, Cardiff North)

The greening of the urban environment, I think, is very important for the health and emotional well-being of residents, and I wondered if the Cabinet Secretary was aware of the community garden movement in New York. I saw some of the community gardens in the lower east side over the recess and it was absolutely staggering how every tiny little bit of spare land was converted to vegetable growing, flower growing, beekeeping—absolutely stunning, and I wondered if there was some way that we could follow that.

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Yes, absolutely. I wasn’t aware of it particularly in New York, but I would be very happy to ask my officials to give me a briefing and also speak to Julie about it. [Interruption.] Or go there—I wasn’t going to say that. [Laughter.]

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

8. How is the Welsh Government encouraging the creation of woodland spaces in Wales? OAQ(5)0022(ERA)

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

The Glastir woodland creation scheme provides financial support for new woodland creation in both rural and urban areas of Wales. Glastir woodland restoration supports replanting of woodland infected by phytophthora ramorum. The Welsh Government opened a further window for expressions of interest for both schemes on 30 August.

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

Thank you. You replied to me by letter on 18 August after I’d written to you about the Confederation of Forest Industries—or ConFor—correspondence on obstacles to commercial woodland creation and management in Wales and some solutions. In your reply you said that your predecessor had replied to the same document in February, which, of course, he had, but they advise that he only replied to one of the points in the document. They did write back but because the election took over they never got a response to that correspondence. He said that he’d asked his officials to explore their suggestion that clear advice and guidance be provided to applicants with Natural Resources Wales, but they’ve not heard anything since then. You referred to the action plan for 1,000 hectares of new woodland creation by 2020, but their members have highlighted reasons why this is unlikely to succeed unless the obstacles are resolved, and they’ve yet to receive an answer to their questions on restocking to the Natural Resources Wales board. How will you, in a positive mind—because they want to be positive and constructive—engage and help fill in those gaps so that a positive dialogue may go forward to the benefit of all, and particularly the natural environment?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

I’m very keen to engage positively with them. I’m sorry that they haven’t had a response over the bridge of the election, but I’ll certainly look into that for you. I’m not sure if you said it was our goal to plant 1,000 hectares—it’s actually our goal to plant 10,000 hectares of new woodland by March 2020, and I have asked officials to give me assurance that that will be the case. I am concerned to hear that there is some concern from the sector, as you say, but I’ll certainly look into it and will be very happy to meet them.

Vikki Howells (Labour, Cynon Valley)

I recently met with a farmer in my constituency who’d cleared land to create a new woodland under the Glastir scheme. However, he was having problems because that land had since been invaded by Himalayan balsam, which is a problem throughout his farmland, and there was a possibility that that had actually crept down the hill from a Natural Resources Wales site as well. So, I was wondering if you could tell us what approach the Welsh Government will be taking to tackle Himalayan balsam and other invasive species during the fifth Assembly.

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

We are supporting catchment scale control work on Himalayan balsam through local action groups. We’ve also supported the release of a new pathogenic fungus at five sites across Wales, with the Centre for Agriculture and Biosciences International, as a biocontrol agent to tackle this pest.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

We’re all very aware of the benefits of woodland creation in terms of biodiversity, ecosystem services, flood alleviation, carbon capture and so many other of our important natural systems for this and future generations, but I wonder if she’s had time to reflect on her visit to the Spirit of Llynfi Woodland—30 hectares of reclaimed land from the former Maesteg washeries and Coegnant colliery, and an active woodland with tremendous engagement with the local community. What defines it is not just the deciduous woodland planting and the orchards and the natural beauty, but the fact that it is in one of the areas where the most targeted interventions in health and education and other matters are going on. Isn’t it right that the woodland action plan, together with the well-being of future generations Act, means that we need to see the right trees in the right place, and that means close to communities like this?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Yes, absolutely. I very much enjoyed my visit, despite the very heavy rain on that day in August. What struck me about that scheme was the total partnership working in the community, from your environmental organisations to the schools to just local people who came along and helped. To see the thousands of trees that they’d planted was really fantastic.

Hefin David (Labour, Caerphilly)

9. Will the Minister provide an update on the potential implications of the EU referendum vote on support for the food and drink industry in Wales? OAQ(5)0031(ERA)

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

I am currently considering the implications with stakeholders. Ninety-five per cent of Welsh food and drink is sold domestically, and 5 per cent is exported. Ninety per cent of this 5 per cent is exported to the EU. It is my intention to safeguard and grow this trade by maintaining access to the single market and through Welsh Government support.

Hefin David (Labour, Caerphilly)

Llywydd, I should apologise to the Chamber, because, when I put this question in, I didn’t realise that we would be having not one but two Brexit debates on opposition day.

Cabinet Secretary, you’ll recall that, in July 2015, the UK Government announced that it wanted to see the number of British foods protected under European law increase from 63 to 200. Of the applications put forward to the European Commission, nine were from Wales, and, with the support of the Welsh Government, one was the traditional Welsh Caerphilly cheese. Caerphilly cheese has a long history. As a local Assembly Member—it is a rite of passage as the Assembly Member for Caerphilly; you have got to ask a question on Caerphilly cheese—I want to bring that production back to my constituency. However, it’s important to the production and export of Caerphilly cheese that it has special protection under the protected geographical indication or traditional speciality guaranteed mark on the EU protected food register. Would the Cabinet Secretary therefore update me on the progress of Caerphilly cheese’s application and give me assurances that our impending withdrawal from the EU will not affect the product’s potentially obtaining this highly sought-after protected status?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Thank you. It is good to see the Member for Caerphilly carrying on the tradition of his predecessor in relation to Caerphilly cheese. I think protected food names have huge benefits for Welsh products. As you say, we are actually supporting eight new applications, one of which is traditional Caerphilly cheese. The EU referendum result makes no difference to the processing of applications. So, we’re working very closely with the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, because, obviously, they have overall responsibility for all UK applications, and the Commission, to ensure that these applications are both supported and are successful. Until the UK actually leaves the EU, protected food status will remain with that status, and I am very keen to ensure that we have access to that status or, if we don’t after we come out the EU, we have our own or a UK food status, because I think it’s really important that we do have that equivalent status or that protection for our Welsh produce.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Ynys Môn)

I was very pleased to hear that Halen Môn, which does have European protection, of course, was one of the last five pieces of Welsh produce that the Minister bought. I have been discussing with Halen Môn this idea that I’ve been seeking support for of developing a food production park on Anglesey. I am very concerned about what will happen to the RDP in years to come. I did hold discussions with the Minister’s predecessor on the possibility, perhaps through RDP funding, and almost certainly through the use of European funding, of establishing such a food production park on Anglesey, and I was very grateful to her and her officials for responding positively to that idea. I would appreciate confirmation that the Government, under the new Cabinet Secretary, continues to support that concept in principle and is willing to hold further discussions. Will the Cabinet Secretary make a comment on the dangers of Brexit to the future of such schemes and how to overcome that, including the possibility of moving forward very quickly with such a scheme?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

I was very pleased to visit Halen Môn over the summer; I managed to harvest some sea salt myself in a very fetching hairnet, but it was great to see such a wonderful company, and the owners are just so dynamic. Again, it was they who told me how much they value that protected food status. I'm very happy to continue to support the concept to which you refer. Brexit has thrown up lots of challenges. You know, it's very early days, but what we need to focus on is the opportunities that Brexit is bringing forward also, and maybe we could have further discussions in that sort of light in relation to your idea for a food production park.

Andrew RT Davies (Conservative, South Wales Central)

Cabinet Secretary, one of the ways that the food and drink industry can be supported, in particular the red meat sector, is by the promotional levy that is taken on livestock at the point of processing. Now, many Cabinet Secretaries and Ministers, and other Cabinet Secretaries and Ministers from around the UK, have grappled with this promotional levy, because it is at the point of slaughter it is raised, and lots of Welsh livestock go to England to be processed. There is a will and an understanding, as I understand, to review the regulations around this. Have you had an opportunity to familiarise yourselves with the past discussions and, indeed, discuss with DEFRA how the levy could be repatriated to Wales where much of the livestock is finished in its live form but not processed for the market?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

I have had the opportunity to familiarise myself with previous correspondence. I've also had discussions with officials about it. I haven't discussed it directly with DEFRA, but my officials have and it's something we're looking at. You will also be aware that my predecessor brought forward a review of Hybu Cig Cymru, and, again, we're looking at the levy in aspects of that as well.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary.

2. 2. Questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Communities and Children

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

We move on to item 2, which is questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Communities and Children. The first question is from Bethan Jenkins.

Bethan Sayed (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

1. Will the Minister provide an update on strategic regeneration areas? OAQ(5)0022(CC)

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I thank the Member for her question. Regeneration activity continues across Wales under the Vibrant and Viable Places capital regeneration programme. This builds on the success of the previous strategic regeneration area programme, which the Member raises and which ended in March 2015.

Bethan Sayed (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

Can you tell me what work is ongoing to ensure that the Afan valley benefits from the regeneration scheme? I received a letter from Neath Port Talbot council over the summer confirming its intention to locate development work on the coastal corridor in that area, including the upper Neath valley and the upper Swansea valley as areas of strategic growth. But what I’ve found in knocking doors in the Afan area of the valleys is that they feel that things are moving away from that area, that resources are being withdrawn and that they aren’t given the same priority as the coastal belt. So, can you tell us if there are any plans to include this specific area as part of the strategy?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

Well, local authorities are the responsible agents for identifying their Vibrant and Viable Places content, and we acknowledge that when we received them from the local authorities. We are looking at the next stage, post VVP. Indeed, if the local authority provides examples of why they wish that to be prioritised, I will consider that carefully.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Minister, I can join with the Member for South Wales West, because I also was going to ask the question about ensuring that the Viable and Vibrant Places project, which we're seeing actually achieving excellent results in Port Talbot, in the Green Park industrial estate being transformed into a lovely green area and social housing, into the regeneration of the old fire brigade station, and the Port Talbot transport hub at the railway station—they're all coming to fruition, quietly, and seeing a change, but we need that change beyond the principal towns in the areas. So, I will then urge, as Bethan did, that you actually look at extending the Vibrant and Viable Places beyond principal towns into outer communities so that they can benefit. I appreciate you indicated that it’s for the local authorities, but perhaps guidance and criteria could be given to local authorities to express that position, because, as I'm sure you'll agree, this is a fantastic scheme to rejuvenate town centres and areas that have been left to go for a while, but those areas are also in the Valleys.

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I'm very grateful for the Member's comments and question there. I'm pleased to hear of the positive progress being made in places like Port Talbot, and I look forward to seeing the work when I visit there at the end of the month. We’re providing £11.5 million to support a diverse programme, and the projects you mentioned are certainly contributing to rejuvenation of the town. Of course, as I said earlier on, the local authorities are awash with guidance; they never ask for more in terms of what their requests are, apart from more money, generally, but what I can assure you is that we take the bids from local authorities very carefully and consider them in our consideration about strategic regeneration areas or, now, the Vibrant and Viable Places scheme.

Darren Millar (Conservative, Clwyd West)

Minister, one of the successes, really, in north Wales of the previous administration’s approach to regeneration has been in Colwyn Bay, where we’ve seen a revitalisation of that particular town. But of course, there are many other seaside towns around Wales that could benefit from a strategic regeneration approach. Will you take on board our policy proposal from the recent Assembly elections for a seaside towns initiative across Wales, so that the wonderful seaside resorts across Wales that have had ailing fortunes in recent decades can turn themselves around, in the same way that Colwyn Bay has done?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I’m grateful for the recognition by the Member that the previous Labour administration of this Welsh Assembly was investing in areas across Wales, including Colwyn Bay. I visited there, with the Member, indeed, to see this great success, and also places like Rhyl and other areas in north Wales have received significant amounts of funding. I think we are currently considering the next stages to VVP and that may include some reference to seaside towns, but it’s something I will have to give some very careful consideration to.

Angela Burns (Conservative, Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire)

2. Will the Minister outline the Welsh Government’s priorities for ensuring effective community engagement? OAQ(5)0026(CC)

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I thank the Member for her question. I strongly believe in effective community engagement in designing and delivering local services. The Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015 requires public bodies to demonstrate collaboration and involvement in delivering the well-being goals. Communities must be engaged in local government and have their views heard and influence how local services are delivered.

Angela Burns (Conservative, Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire)

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. I agree with the comment about local communities being engaged, and of course, throughout Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire I’ve encountered a number of voluntary groups. I admire their community spirit and they produce an enormous amount of work on behalf of the communities they represent. However—and there’s always a ‘however’—I am becoming increasingly aware of groups that are set up purporting to represent local communities when in fact they’re merely representing a very narrow sector within a local community—a small group of people within a large town. This very often causes resentment and frustration by the wider community who don’t actually want to set up another group but feel that these smaller organisations are steering their towns and their villages in a way that they don’t want to see. Politicians are lobbied, funding is applied for, funding is received and I wondered what you might be able to do to ensure that there is better guidance for these small organisations. We don’t want to stifle their wonderful spirit, but we do want to make sure that, when they say they represent a village, a town or a group, they truly represent them and not just the narrow self-interest of a very, very small minority.

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I’m grateful to the Member for the question and the non-partisan way that she raised it, too. I think many Members in this Chamber could be familiar with the examples the Member sets out. I think what we are very keen as a Government to do is ensure that our funding streams go to the maximum benefit of our larger communities, working with organisations such as the Wales Council for Voluntary Action and the 44 public sector bodies now under the WFG Act. That will be a new sign of the way that we develop policy for local communities and engagement and involvement is a key part of that—being able to demonstrate that to the future generations commissioner and the auditor general and to government is an important process for them.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

We now move to questions from party spokespeople, and first of all this week the Welsh Conservative spokesperson, Mark Isherwood.

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

Diolch, Lywydd. In support of the ‘Let’s Keep on Supporting People’ campaign for 2017-18, which is now gathering speed, I visited a number of projects during the summer. In one, a recovering alcoholic told me that their Supporting People programme essentially saved their life: ‘with their support past and present I have the chance of a much better life’. The second—I won’t refer to any more—said: ‘it was on 12 March of this year I had my last drink. I was so consumed by negative thoughts, ill health and the desire to end everything, I was nothing but a strain on society, a drain on the NHS, police, doctors, nurses, psychiatrists, support workers in mental health, family friends and God knows what else. All these people and resources taken up by my alcoholic state. The cost of all this: incomprehensible. All this involvement and treatment now has given me an opportunity at life once again’.

Do you recognise, as I’m sure you do, that these projects save money for statutory services, and will you be making representations accordingly as we move towards the draft budget for next year?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

Yes.

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

Thank you. You’ll be aware, alongside that, there are two other correlating budgets, particularly the homelessness prevention budget, which was cut by 8 per cent in the current year. A coalition of providers—Shelter Cymru, Llamau, GISDA, Digartref Ynys Môn and Dewis—have made the point that reducing the budget that supports key preventative services, which are integral to the outcome and success of services and provision supported by the other budgets—cutting this is self-defeating. They’re calling on the Welsh Government to protect the homelessness prevention grant, saying that it’s provided a platform for other sources of funds to be deployed into prevention work, that it saves money and that working with Supporting People ensures that as many people as possible are given support early on. How do you respond to that call alongside Supporting People?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I’m very grateful for the Member’s question. I don’t doubt his integrity in raising this with me today, but what I will tell the Member is that our investments have to be strategically managed on the basis of our reducing budgets year on year. What we have to do, and what we’ve done in Wales, is protect the Supporting People budget, whereas is England, under the UK administration, the Supporting People budget has disappeared. We’re very keen that we want to maintain that. I can’t guarantee that it’ll be at the same level, but I can tell you—and the Member raised this specifically on that question around homelessness—we have taken a very different approach here in Wales. The 63 per cent reduction in homelessness figures reported here in Wales is a significant drop for supporting of services. It’s a programme that is now being considered by the UK Government. In Wales, we should be celebrating the prevent work that we are doing. I do recognise the importance of funding to organisations; but can I guarantee that at this points in time? No, I can’t.

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

My question was, rather, what representations you would be making. Clearly, I appreciate how the budget round works and was not seeking to score party-political points. I fully supported the protection of that budget last year and I will continue to do so into the future, not just because of homelessness, but because of the related impact of early intervention on substance misuse, on domestic abuse and so many other things that lead to costly pressure on statutory services. I hope you will recognise that this is a way to save money and a way to cut budgets by holistic thinking within Welsh Government.

The final leg on the stool for this, alongside those two programmes, is the housing transition fund—supporting people on the edge of society, reducing demand on accident and emergency, encouraging people into employment, helping people reunite with their children and much more. Cymorth Cymru have made the point that—falling to £3 million, I believe, this year, from £5 million last year—that is due to end at the end of this year. But if this could be incorporated into Supporting People, the £130 million, which would be the combined amount, would enable us even further to tackle and prevent and intervene and reduce the costs of the statutory sector as part of a tight budget settlement. How do you respond to that?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I’m under no illusion about how positive the funding stream for Supporting People is and it has a great impact in delivering services in a ‘prevent’ method. My Cabinet colleagues recognise that too and that’s why we have done our best under the previous Minister also to protect as much Supporting People budget as possible. But we cannot continue in the same guise. We’re in a very different space in terms of our financial settlement. We have to have bold, respectful conversations with organisations that deliver services on how they can deliver them better.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

UKIP spokesperson—Michelle Brown.

Michelle Brown (UKIP, North Wales)

Thank you, Presiding Officer. I’m just going to cut straight to the questions. What is the Welsh Government doing to identify and protect girls at risk of female genital mutilation and what resources have been provided to the NHS, social services and schools to support those measures?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I thank the Member for her question. We legislated in Wales around violence against women and sexual exploitation. We have a programme working with the NHS regarding FGM—and other third sector organisations. It is a priority of my department to make sure that the safety of our communities and individuals should be maintained and I will continue to do so.

Michelle Brown (UKIP, North Wales)

Many people from communities where FGM is or has been practised are working hard to prevent FGM in Wales and help its victims. What support is the Welsh Government giving to charities involved in this vital work?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I don’t have any figures for the Member today, but I will write to the Member in terms of further detail. As I said earlier on, this is a very complex area in terms of what is believed to be socially acceptable in some of these circles. It is clearly not. We don’t believe that is the case. And we are working with third sector organisations—sorry, the public sector, like the NHS, and also the police in regard to convictions of individuals who pursue this.

Michelle Brown (UKIP, North Wales)

Cultural practices are transmitted down the generations, and FGM in particular is inflicted on girl children by adults, ultimately for the benefit of men in the patriarchal culture. What are you doing to challenge the cultural values that give rise to FGM, particularly amongst males belonging to cultures where FGM is practised?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

We have a faith forum, which I chair, alongside the First Minister. We work on the ability to help cultures change from within, rather than them being told what people should be doing. We have to work with sympathetic organisations that can work and operate in that culture or faith. We are having some success, but there’s an awful lot more work to be done in this field.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Bethan Jenkins.

Bethan Sayed (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

Cabinet Secretary, the last time we had these questions was before the referendum on the EU, and many Members commented on how many anti-poverty schemes are funded by the EU. So, now we’re of course aware that those who campaigned to leave the EU, including some members of the Labour Party, like Gisela Stuart, made a promise that every penny received from the EU would be maintained. But what contingency plans have you made, with your officials, should some of these anti-poverty schemes not be safeguarded?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

It’s a very important question the Member raises, and the First Minister has been very clear, in terms of negotiations with the UK Government, on how and when we expect to see funding coming forward. To date, we haven’t had much indication, or much luck on that indication, but he is pressing the UK very hard. We have done some assessments on impacts of Brexit, particularly around the skills, jobs and growth area, which we are particularly concerned about, but what we cannot promise is to mitigate the significant amounts of money that come from Europe through to Wales—that we can backfill that very easily. We have to prioritise our programmes in the future. We are still doing some work on that.

Bethan Sayed (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

Thank you for your response. There’s been a great deal of concern/interest from much of the political establishment that many of the areas that benefitted the most from European money voted to leave. But in spite of all that funding going to the Valleys, poverty, poor housing and insecure employment remain a fact of life for many people living there. So, this vote could therefore be seen as a verdict of how the Welsh Government has administered billions of pounds of EU money, rather than the institution itself. Do you accept, therefore, that tackling poverty isn’t just about the number you put after the pound sign on the press release, but about how you spend existing budgets, and that if you aren’t giving communities what they really need, or aren’t consulting effectively with them, then warning them that the money is at risk may be seen as a bit of an empty threat to those types of people?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I think the Member raises a very interesting point. And the Member will be aware of her colleagues in Government too promoting and spending some of the European funding across Wales in many years previously.

The issue for me, which is the important point I think the Member was getting to, was the issue around that we shouldn’t scare people about what’s going to happen—we should be offering them hope and opportunity. And what I’m trying to do within this department, around two themes where I’m pushing very hard—. One is about economic resilience for a community, and the other one is about well-being—the community well-being, individual or the broader community. If we can get those two things right, I think we can start to lift people out of poverty. And I met with one of the foundations this morning, the Bevan Foundation, just to talk about some of those issues that we have in mind in terms of changing our poverty strategy as we move forward.

Bethan Sayed (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

Thank you for that, but I think we do need to have a recognition as well that at least some of those billions have not achieved their intended aim, and I think we need to be open about that fact. It’s certainly the case that funding for anti-poverty programmes is at risk, and contingencies should be made, as you have indicated, to become more resilient.

But we also have to accept that the solutions may involve negligible costs to make savings long term. For example, we tried to legislate on outlawing zero-hours contracts in social care, your Government voted against attempts to phase out priority need, and the end of the Pereira test in the homelessness system so everyone was entitled to housing. So, you can see how we might be able to do this without having to, again, pump millions of pounds into that. How are you looking at new types of initiatives, as a result of this vote, and how then you will be trying to implement them as a Government?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I’ll be making a statement early next month regarding the communities division and our vision for the opportunities for communities across Wales, which will be more detailed in terms of how we see tackling poverty featured at the top of our agenda. The Member made a very general statement there about what hasn’t worked in European funding, but didn’t give me any detail of what hasn’t worked, but I’m more than happy to have a further discussion with the Member. What we should do is not be risk-averse in some of the impacts that we do. We sometimes have to test things in communities, just to see if they do work to make the change, and I think we should be very positive about the programmes we have done and have delivered and not talk Wales down all the time.

Nick Ramsay (Conservative, Monmouth)

3. Will the Minister make a statement on the development of community hubs? OAQ(5)0019(CC)

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I thank the Member for his question. Bringing together a range of services and organisations within community hubs can potentially improve both service delivery and customer access.

Nick Ramsay (Conservative, Monmouth)

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. I’ve been working closely with the Raglan village hall committee in my constituency, which is working hard to develop a community hub at the centre of the Monmouth constituency. The Big Lottery have provided funding to develop designs. Can you tell me how the Welsh Government’s community facilities programme is working with organisations such as the Big Lottery to develop community hubs across Wales?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

Thank you. I’ve received the letter from the Member that gives full support to the application of Raglan village hall, and you were right to say that they have received a significant amount of money from the Big Lottery in regard to design. The community facilities programme is a capital grant scheme, which provides up to £500,000 for community-led projects to improve community facilities that tackle poverty. This can include community hubs.

Simon Thomas (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

4. What discussions has the Minister had regarding legislation that would ensure that children would be protected in the same way as adults from physical attacks? OAQ(5)0035(CC)[W]

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I thank the Member for his question. The First Minister has announced our intention to take forward, on a cross-party basis, legislation that will remove the defence of reasonable punishment. I have recently met with the Children’s Commissioner for Wales and will be engaging with stakeholders, including Assembly Members, as this matter goes forward.

Simon Thomas (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

I thank the Minister for his response. I’m pleased to hear that there has been some progress since we last questioned him on this issue before the summer, and specifically that he has met the Children’s Commissioner for Wales. I’m sure that he will have received the full support of the commissioner to that objective. Can he now explain how the Government intends to bring some sort of provision through this Assembly, particularly bearing in mind that we need to give Members of all parties the opportunity to, hopefully, support such a measure, and to get wider support for this equality of protection for young people and children?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I thank the Member for his comments. I intend to start negotiations with all parties to see how we can find a collective way forward through this. My initial starting point is to provide a positive parenting programme, where we see a holistic view for families, and support for young people, in terms of a better offer for Wales, and alongside that we will include the legislation that the Member talked about.

Julie Morgan (Labour, Cardiff North)

I think many parents think that the defence of reasonable punishment has already been abolished, but would the Minister agree that in preparation for the forthcoming legislation, it’s very important to communicate with parents and with families, and can he tell us how he’s going to do that?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I thank the Member for her question. To co-ordinate this crucial work in Government, we’ve established a dedicated parenting team, which will drive forward this agenda. My officials have already started the process of engagement with parents and other stakeholders to inform the development of this legislation. I wish to be inclusive in this process and I’m sure the Member will have lots to add.

David Melding (Conservative, South Wales Central)

Cabinet Secretary, you’ll be supported if you bring forward legislation in this area from this Conservative anyway. [Interruption.] Well, I do recall in previous Assemblies that I was joined by a number of colleagues on these benches in saying it’s time to move on and end this practice. I have to say that I don’t completely agree with the wording of this question, because, clearly, children would be protected in current law from physical attack. We are talking about what previous generations called ‘reasonable chastisement’. But I agree with Julie Morgan, it’s all about supporting parents, and that’s not only just education, but ensuring our public services are there, so that we have effective childcare, for instance, and other areas of support, so that parents don’t feel under great pressure, which sometimes can lead to frustration and a lack of control. So, it’s a whole package. But it is now high time that we passed a law in this area.

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I thank the Member for his support. I did a little rough estimate of Members who may be supportive of the legislation, as we move forward, and I think that we’re on the right side of that at the moment. I hope that we can continue that dialogue.

The Member is right about the protection of young people. There is a raft of legislation already in place, but it’s not yet complete and we have to make sure that we provide the opportunity of positive parenting and that’s why I don’t think we should look to criminalise parents, but we should look to support parents, and this is something that I’ll be seeking to do as we move forward.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

5. Will the Minister outline the Welsh Government’s priorities in tackling child poverty in South Wales West? OAQ(5)0021(CC)

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I thank the Member for Aberavon. The 2015 child poverty strategy sets out our priorities for tackling child poverty across Wales. They include a focus on early years and increasing employability. I am also exploring opportunities to address adverse childhood experiences, reducing their impact on children’s life chances.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Thank you for that answer, Cabinet Secretary. As you will be aware, the Joseph Rowntree Foundation last week published its report, ‘We Can Solve Poverty in the UK’, which highlighted five points. One of those was strengthening families and communities, which comes under your remit. They also include four recommendations. In my constituency of Aberavon, many families are struggling and facing difficult challenges ahead of them. What actions are the Welsh Government taking to ensure that these families are able to benefit from the strengthened family support, such as Families First? Will you guarantee that Families First funding will continue beyond the current stage?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

The Member is right to raise these issues for his constituency and many others across Wales. Families First and Flying Start are two very important parts of our tackling poverty and family support programmes. I am seeking to continue those into the future.

David Lloyd (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

Minister, what is your assessment of the recent changes to Jobs Growth Wales and how do you hope to reduce the number of families where no-one is in employment in order to tackle child poverty?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I think we’ve had great success with Jobs Growth Wales and our manifesto commitment to improve and increase to 100,000 apprenticeships across Wales of any age is something that I’m sure the Member would support. There are many things, as the Member recognises, that have an effect on community resilience and family resilience: education, jobs and skills and well-being all being part of that. As I said to the previous Member previously, I will be making a statement later next week about our community vision, about what that programme support should be and how we can develop that for the future.

Suzy Davies (Conservative, South Wales West)

Confidence and appropriate skills to help people join the workforce, of course, are key to tackling child poverty, and it’s important that children grow up in an environment that values their talents and their aptitudes and that helps them to develop those in order to expand their own horizons. But the adults in the lives of some of these children themselves may need some help to help create that environment. I appreciate that there will be some crossover with one of your colleagues here, but community-based learning is a very important part of helping adults to create that environment. Would you agree with me that some of the courses that are offered in the community could contain elements, such as how to manage budgets and how to set up and market businesses and developing Welsh-language skills, not just as separate subjects, but as part of those basic skills training that you tend to get in community-based learning courses?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I think the Member’s right and what we have to do and what we have done in many areas around the Families First programme is look at the wraparound provision of the family—not just children, but parents and guardians—and about what are its actual needs. I’ve recently been criticised about some action I’d taken on Families First regarding some of the more direct work about how we support families, where we’ve removed some of the financial investment around that and the knowledge base. What I’m very keen to assure Members of is that my priority is about making sure that we have a support mechanism around the family, and whatever the problems are, we can signpost and support them to move on to the next—. It’s about preventative exposure rather than responding to a family or a person who’s in crisis later on in the day.

Caroline Jones (UKIP, South Wales West)

Cabinet Secretary, Aberavon has some of the highest levels of child poverty in Wales. In one ward, nearly 46 per cent of children are living in poverty. The ‘State of the Nation’ annual report by the UK’s Social Mobility and Child Poverty Commission was critical of the Welsh Government’s policies, stating that they were not having the right level of impact. Given the Welsh Government’s commitment to eradicate child poverty by 2020, what changes are you proposing to tackle child poverty in my region over the next three years? Diolch.

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

The numbers that the Member raised there are troubling to me, too, but they are very fortunate in that they have got a fantastic Assembly Member in Dai Rees in the Aberavon area. He raises these issues with me on a regular basis, and I’m committed to ensuring that we tackle the issues that the Member raised and which are raised in the report. Indeed, I will be coming to the Chamber to issue a statement to Members in order for the Member and others to understand exactly what Welsh Government is doing and what interventions we will be bringing forward.

Leanne Wood (Plaid Cymru, Rhondda)

6. What considerations has the Minister given to how exiting the EU will impact upon young people’s entitlements in Wales? OAQ(5)0033(CC)

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I thank the Member for her question. Our commitment to children and young people is enshrined in legislation and Brexit doesn’t change this directly. Investing in children and young people is intrinsically a good thing to do. It makes sense for the good of society and for the long-term benefit of the economy.

Leanne Wood (Plaid Cymru, Rhondda)

Minister, the result on 23 June has caused great anxiety amongst many people, and young people are not immune to this. You will be aware, I’m sure, of the large demonstration that took place outside this building in the aftermath of Brexit, which was organised by students. Have you yet considered what impact the potential reduction of research funding for universities will have on the prospects of young people and their ability to reach their full potential? Have you, for example, had discussion with Cabinet colleagues regarding the loss of opportunities from programmes like the Erasmus programme and how that can be mitigated? Finally, will you do everything in your power to support a youth parliament for Wales as a vehicle for young people to articulate their concerns and come together for collective action on important issues that affect them, like Brexit?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I’m grateful for the Member’s comments and questions. Of course, the Member will be aware of the First Minister’s announcement of a Cabinet sub-committee to look at the implications of Brexit and what that means to Welsh Government, and the discussions through the UK, which has already had its first meeting. I haven’t had a direct meeting regarding the research finances with my colleagues, but I believe that is under way with that department.

With regard to the youth parliament, the Government’s position has been very clear: we’re supportive of a youth parliament, but we believe that is a matter for the Commission, and I’m sure the Commission has heard that very clearly, both today and from previous correspondence.

Darren Millar (Conservative, Clwyd West)

Cabinet Secretary, do you agree with me that it’s very concerning to read the findings of the Children’s Society’s ‘The Good Childhood Report’, which reported that one in seven girls in Wales are unhappy with their lives and one in nine boys are unhappy with their lives as well? What specific action is the Welsh Government going to take in order to reverse this trend, which appears to be getting worse—not just in Wales, but across the United Kingdom—so that we can have some concerted action to deal with this problem?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

The Member is right to raise this issue and it does concern me also. I’ve asked my team to look at the implications of that report and how much more we can do, not with just this department, but also through educational support within the school setting and in third sector organisations in relation to how we engage with young people and listen to their views. Often, the older generation do things at children because they think it’s the right thing to do, rather than listening to what the action should be. We’re in that space now of engaging with young people and listening to what has an impact on their lives.

Mark Reckless (UKIP, South Wales East)

7. Will the Welsh Government continue to prioritise childcare provision in nurseries attached to schools over private nurseries? OAQ(5)0036(CC)

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

Welsh Government provides funding for local authorities to deliver early education for all three and four-year-olds in Wales. How this provision is delivered is a matter for the local authority, which can choose to deliver it in schools or private and voluntary sector nurseries.

Mark Reckless (UKIP, South Wales East)

The provision in Wales is very centred on schools, compared to a more mixed economy across the border. Has the Minister considered that many parents might welcome more of a choice between school-based nurseries and independent nurseries and, for example, might like the opportunity, rather than five days of two-and-a-half hours a day, to have a smaller number of fuller days in the week?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

Indeed, we have given further consideration to the issue of delivering childcare, and the Member will be aware that our manifesto commitment to provide quality childcare will be brought forward and we will start that programme by the end of next year across Wales. This is about delivering services for young people across the whole of Wales.

Llyr Gruffydd (Plaid Cymru, North Wales)

It’s generally recognised, of course, that getting graduate level practitioners into early years settings has a very positive impact, as I’m sure you know, on the educational outcomes of those early years. The Government drafted, of course, back in 2014 its 10-year workforce plan on early years childcare and play. Can you tell us when that is likely to see the light of day, because in your letter to the Children, Young People and Education Committee you’re rather ambiguous, shall we say? Can you give us something to work on?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I’m grateful for the Member’s ability to jump to question 15 in this supplementary question that he’s asked today. But, the 10-year draft plan sets out the ambitious plans to develop early years childcare. Work is currently under way to assess the impact of a number of policy developments before finalising the workforce plan. I think, actually, one of the issues now is about the childcare provision programme that we are seeking to do. I know the Member is supportive of quality childcare and quality served childcare. That is something that we have to work through as well. We are working with other departments to make sure we can finalise that. I will write to the Member specifically with—I did write to committee, whether the Member has got a copy of that I’m not sure, but I will write specifically to the Member.

Mohammad Asghar (Conservative, South Wales East)

The Labour manifesto at the Assembly elections promised to offer 30 hours a week of free childcare to working parents. This was to be delivered by a wide range of providers, including schools, childminders, play groups and day care. Will the Cabinet Secretary advise the Assembly what proportion of childcare in Wales is delivered by private nurseries compared to those attached to schools?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I don’t have those numbers, but I’m very grateful for the Member reiterating our very positively received manifesto commitment. We will be delivering that in this term of Government and, as I indicated earlier on, we are seeking to start the pilot programmes in the autumn of next year It is a very complex programme, but we will be delivering for the people of Wales, as they voted for.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

8. What discussions has the Minister had with Westminster counterparts regarding regeneration funding following the decision to leave the EU? OAQ(5)0027(CC)

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

Communities across Wales have benefited greatly from European funding. Through discussions led by the First Minister and the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Local Government, the Welsh Government has ensured the current allocation of regeneration funding is available up until 2020.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Thank you for that answer, Cabinet Secretary. Aberavon has been a beneficiary of the EU regeneration funds and has seen many projects develop across the communities, including the Afan valley. The decision by the British people to leave the EU obviously will put an end to the stream of funding. But that does not stop the impact of the austerity that emanates from Westminster, particularly on local authorities having to face some of the challenges, and today’s Institute for Fiscal Studies report indicates that that is going to be even greater again. In your earlier answers to the spokesperson for Plaid Cymru regarding the EU, you indicated that you are doing some analysis, but what preparations for us seeking alternative funding streams are you looking at, because you know that those funding streams are going and you know that those communities still need that help?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

This is really a very difficult piece of work, and if we were to believe the Brexiteers, then we shouldn’t be worried too much about the amount of funding that we should get back into Wales, but I’ve got some doubts about that in terms of the amount of money that we may receive. This work is continuing to be led by the First Minister and the Cabinet sub-committee in terms of how and what that financial settlement may or could look like and the conditions set to that. It is, of course, always our consideration how we make best use of our investments and limited funding available subject to EU exit, but it is still premature to try to understand exactly where those investments may be for the future.

Andrew RT Davies (Conservative, South Wales Central)

Cabinet Secretary, the question was what have you been doing via discussions with colleagues in Westminster, and I’d be grateful if you could outline what actions you’ve taken over the summer months to meet with your colleague—your opposite number in Westminster—because the Westminster Government will be on point in these negotiations, and it is vitally important that the devolved Governments and administrations help and feed in and assist the Westminster Government. I’d be grateful to know how you are taking forward that dialogue with colleagues in Westminster and what meetings you’ve had, importantly, over the summer to map out some of the basic territory you want to go down.

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I haven’t had any specific meetings with any Minister regarding this, but the First Minister and the team have. The lead Ministers for European discussions is the First Minister and the finance Minister, and there have been many discussions over the summer months.

Jenny Rathbone (Labour, Cardiff Central)

9. Will the Minister provide an update on Welsh Government’s strategy for tackling child poverty in light of the recommendations in last week’s Joseph Rowntree Foundation report We Can Solve Poverty in the UK? OAQ(5)0034(CC)

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I thank Jenny for her question. The Welsh Government’s strategy for tackling child poverty remains focused on building a strong economy, increasing skills, reducing worklessness, reducing inequalities in education and health outcomes, and addressing the poverty premium. These priorities are closely aligned with the elements of the Joseph Rowntree Foundation’s anti-poverty strategy.

Jenny Rathbone (Labour, Cardiff Central)

One of my constituents alerts me to the fact that she’s having to pay £8 a week for her eldest child to settle into her first term at secondary school, which is less than 3 miles away but more than 2 miles away. I understand her anxieties at this very difficult moment in the child’s life, but this is a woman on housing benefit, on income support, and £8 a week is a huge chunk out of the money that she needs to spend on the rest of her family. If we compare that with those rather reckless parents who continue to deliver their children to the school gates by car, regardless of the environmental consequences, you can just see the differences in the way in which children approach secondary school education.

Now, the Rowntree report makes five asks about child poverty, including supporting people to be good parents, supporting parents and children’s mental health, and access to high-quality affordable childcare. What more do you think the Welsh Government can do to address these endemic causes of enduring child poverty?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

Well, the asks that the JRF report responds to are very closely aligned to the policy development of this Welsh Government. I agree supporting parents is a priority, and I’ve taken a decision to refocus the Families First programme to ensure it develops services that address identified gaps in service provision for parents. That will link in very strongly to the work that we are doing around adverse childhood experiences. Parenting is also integral to Flying Start. I’m more than happy, as always, to meet with the Member for Cardiff Central if the Member’s got more ideas in terms of how we can improve our support mechanisms, and will continue to do so. But we are thinking about this very carefully and I will be making a statement shortly.

David Melding (Conservative, South Wales Central)

Cabinet Secretary, I’m sure you know that only a highly integrated policy across Government areas is going to really tackle child poverty. For instance, the level of economic inactivity has a big impact on the number of children living in poverty. I do hope you’ll be talking to your colleagues, the economic Minister and education Secretary as well, so that we can see FE course, HE courses, for instance, being more accessible—more part-time courses, more financial support—so that people can develop their skills to either enter the labour market or get a better job within that labour market.

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I’m grateful for the Member’s question. We have seen a small, 2 per cent reduction in child poverty here in Wales. I believe that is partly due to the economics of Wales, with more jobs and young people living less in workless households. It’s something that the Cabinet Secretary for the economy leads on in terms of poverty strategy, but we work very closely together to ensure that we are joined up on all aspects of the work that we do.

Lynne Neagle (Labour, Torfaen)

10. Will the Minister provide an update on the impact of the UK Government’s welfare reform on Wales? OAQ(5)0030(CC)

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I thank the Member for Torfaen. The most recent research undertaken by the Institute for Fiscal Studies on the impact of welfare reform and changes to personal taxes estimates the overall annual loss in Wales to be around £600 million.

Lynne Neagle (Labour, Torfaen)

I’m sure you’re aware, Minister, of how worried Welsh Women’s Aid are about the changes to the decision to cap local housing allowance. Will you comment on that action and will you take this opportunity to reiterate your support for the excellent work that Women’s Aid refuges do throughout Wales? Given that the changes are going to be deferred for a short period, will you commit to taking every opportunity to press the UK Government to exempt women’s refuges from these proposals?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I thank the Member for her question and, of course, I pay tribute to the many support services for people suffering from domestic violence, and other causes are supported through Wales and across the UK. I’m very concerned that supported accommodation, including women’s refuges, is not exempt from the local housing allowance cap. We have made representations to the Department for Work and Pensions. I do hope that this pause in the appointment of this policy may give the Minister some pause for thought with regard to this and they’ll change their mind as regards this provision.

Steffan Lewis (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

Of course, one of the ways we can mitigate the effects of UK welfare reform on Welsh communities is to begin developing a unique Welsh system in its place. I was very grateful to the Cabinet Secretary for his positive response, before the summer recess, to a suggestion of developing ‘Social Security Cymru’ as a concept that is backed up by maximising the opportunities we have with existing powers, but also to look at drawing down further welfare powers from the British state in the future. I wonder if the Cabinet Secretary can outline his intentions in terms of taking that idea forward.

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

Interestingly, I had discussions this morning about that very issue. But, the primary concern about this was about the financial settlement that we have to receive from the UK Government. Of course, to date, we haven’t had much luck with the agreement of a financial settlement that is the right and appropriate amount for Wales, whereas Scotland have had a different agreement. I’m sure, given the opportunity for that settlement to be in the right space, the Minister for finance would be happy to discuss with me other aspects of the devolution of powers that could come to this Assembly.

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

Following the introduction of recommendations in their ‘Dynamic Benefits: Towards welfare that works’ report, the Centre for Social Justice has pointed out that more people are employed than ever before, less people are claiming benefits and UK unemployment is at a record low of 4.9 per cent. Of course, we know Wales has a good record and story on that. However, Wales’s economic inactivity rate for working-age people not in employment is still almost 3 per cent higher than for the UK. What consideration, therefore, will you give to doing things differently and to considering what might work elsewhere—Scotland, England or beyond—in order to close that gap?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

Indeed, I think giving people opportunity and ambition is something that the Government is keen to support, and that’s why our 100,000 apprenticeship programme will be rolled out from the skills department of this Government. The issues around supporting people back into work are something that I concentrate on in my department, too. There are things that we often disagree on, but I think we can share the importance of giving people hope. Jobs and skills are something that we both, hopefully, agree on.

Vikki Howells (Labour, Cynon Valley)

I’ve recently been contacted by a constituent who is affected by young-onset dementia, and she was advised to give up work and put in an application for personal independence payments. My constituent was left feeling distressed and devalued as her assessment solely focused on physical capability and not her mental health needs. Do you agree, Cabinet Secretary, that this is unacceptable and that it highlights that the UK Government’s social security reforms are not fit for purpose, and will you raise these concerns in all relevant discussions with the DWP?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I thank the Member for her question. I understand that, to be eligible for PIP payments, a person must have a long-term health condition or disability, which include mental health conditions and, particularly, progressive conditions such as dementia. I will ask my officials to seek further clarity from the Department for Work and Pensions on how they undertake their assessments for PIP for people with mental health conditions, and perhaps the Member may wish to write to me specifically about this case, and I will take that up for her.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

I thank the Cabinet Secretary.

3. 3. Motion to Alter the Remit of the External Affairs and Additional Legislation Committee

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

And the next item on our agenda is the motion to amend the remit of the External Affairs and Additional Legislation Committee, and I call a member of the Business Committee to move the motion. Paul Davies.

Paul Davies (Conservative, Preseli Pembrokeshire)

Formally move.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Thank you. The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? I see that there are no objections, therefore the motion is agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

4. 4. Motion to Elect Members to a Committee

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The next item is the motion to elect members to committees, and I call again on a member of the Business Committee to move the motion. Paul Davies.

Paul Davies (Conservative, Preseli Pembrokeshire)

Formally move.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? If there are no objections, the motion is agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

5. 5. Plaid Cymru Debate: Economic Development

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The next item on our agenda is the Plaid Cymru debate, and I call on Adam Price to move the motion.

Adam Price (Plaid Cymru, Carmarthen East and Dinefwr)

Diolch, Lywydd. This debate, in the name of Plaid Cymru, focuses on probably, I think, one of the key challenges—the central challenge—for this Assembly, which is meeting the demands of the new economic topography, if you like, of the post-Brexit landscape.

The first pre-requisite for good policy is a common understanding: we’re all on the same page. I think that that is part of the challenge that we face in developing a new strategy, and understanding the scale of the challenge. The Welsh economy has probably faced, in the post second world war period, three great periods of economic change: in the immediate aftermath of the war, then the period from the 1960s, the late 1960s, the 1970s and 1980s of industrial restructuring, primarily through the decline of coal and steel, and then in the period post 1996, particularly with the period of the high pound and, actually, the accession of eastern European countries also posed particular challenges for us. Now, we’re on the cusp of an even bigger challenge, possibly. Globally, when we look at the environment’s secular stagnation, as it’s called, which is this kind of decline in the international economic growth rates, fiscal and monetary policy—the two big bazookas, as they’re sometimes called, of economic policy—seemingly exhausted, and rising global competition, in part driven by slowdown in domestic markets, even in China, it’s not an auspicious environment for us to be facing domestic challenges as well, but it is where we are.

If we think of those three periods in the post-war period, what you notice is an attempt to create a set of policies, a new economic policy paradigm that, to some extent, was successful: regional policy within the UK shifting economic activity around the UK in the aftermath of world war two; and, inward investment in the 1980s, where Wales did relatively well and sometimes, of course, achieving proportions of inward investment as high as 25 per cent of the entire UK. It’s the third period since 1996 when we have seen a precipitous decline in our relative gross value added share, or proportion. Of course, that period has coincided with the period of devolution. Devolution was meant to be the answer to Wales’s economic problems. The devolution dividend that we often refer to, at least on economic policy, has not delivered. I think that the Member for Llanelli was right on the money when he reminded us of that devolution dividend argument. He said, over the summer, that despite continued efforts, on that test, it has so far failed to fulfil its potential. So, it’s a challenge to all of us elected to this place that we now meet that test and that we come up with a new economic strategy that can meet the test of our times.

Now, that’s even more important of course in the context of Brexit, isn’t it? The need for an answer has accelerated even further. I must admit—and I’m trying to be fair and not hypercritical here—I’m not convinced by the response that we’ve heard so far from the Welsh Government. Yes, it is confusing. There are so many options on the table that you need a compass: Norway, Switzerland, Canada; Lichtenstein is a new one—of course, Lichtenstein is in the European Economic Area but did have a nine-year moratorium on free movement; reverse Greenland; customs union; World Trade Organization rules; and the continental partnership proposal, which has some merits and was suggested by the Bruegel think tank over the summer.

In a fast-moving scene, you need to show some flexibility and agility of mind, I think we would all accept that, and there’s certainly an opportunity as well for us in Wales—rather than simply going for a prêt-à-porter solution, coming up with a bespoke solution: a new idea for new times. But, that shouldn’t be a recipe for confusion. I think that that’s what we’ve had so far from the Welsh Government on the model that is in the best interests of Wales—the type of Brexit. Because, let’s be clear, the people of Wales have voted for Brexit, as have the people of the UK, but the door through which we exit is what we’re debating now, and there are different-coloured doors available to us; there are different thresholds; and there are different end destinations. It’s important that this National Assembly expresses what is in the national interest of Wales.

Unfortunately, I have to say, we heard from the First Minister three different policies in two days, sometimes in the course of the same session. In the European and External Affairs Committee, when challenged by my colleague Steffan Lewis, he said he did not support membership of the single market, but the rather more nebulous term, ‘access’. Well, who is against access, you know? When challenged on this question again by the leader of the opposition, he said he was, and had always been, in favour of membership of the single market—in that slightly patronising tone—and asked, ‘Where has he been? Has he not been reading the newspapers?’ [Laughter.] He then went on to say—[Interruption.] He then went on to say—[Interruption.] He then went on to say that he favoured—[Interruption.] He then went on to say that he favoured a free-trade agreement, or EFTA, but outside the EEA, because that would avoid a commitment to free movement—despite saying on Monday that he actually saw the EEA or the EFTA models as by far the most workable, and saying in the immediate aftermath of the Brexit vote that, actually, free movement was a red line as far as he was concerned. So, I’m completely confused. I invite a Minister, any Minister, to patronise me by all means. Maybe I would be a little bit wiser if you would intervene, if not now, and maybe we could have some clarity on what is the current position in terms of Brexit as far as the Welsh Government is concerned.

Moving on to the economic strategy, I have to say that confusion reigns here as well. We do still have a current economic strategy: ‘Economic Renewal: a new direction’. It was published in 2010. It still is, officially, the economic strategy of the Welsh Government. At the time—the clue was in the title, ‘a new direction’—it was meant to represent a step change in thinking, away from the old grant culture and towards, instead, a more strategic approach to creating the conditions for economic success, rather than the old school of, basically, economic success coming through the stroke of a ministerial pen and money being doled out to individual companies. It was also meant to be more strategic in focusing on some key sectors—a limited number of key sectors where we believed Wales had a particular competitive advantage: ‘smart specialisation’, as it is sometimes called in the jargon.

What happened, of course, is that there was a change of administration and the thinking behind the strategy somehow got lost. So, the first thing that has happened is that three additional sectors were added, some of them rather large, like construction. In fact, somebody worked out that probably 90 per cent of businesses in Wales are actually part of the target sectors. Well, that’s not targeting, is it? That’s not prioritisation. We’ve seen the slow re-emergence of the grant culture, of the principal policy lever of the Government basically being that stroke of the ministerial pen, and micro-managing the economy. Picking winners, the evidence is quite clear, is fraught with difficulty. What Government should be doing is concentrating on those areas where we have a competitive advantage and investing in skills and infrastructure. Yes, in particular developments with particular companies and sectors, but doing it using a cluster approach rather than just doling out money in the old-fashioned way.

Yes, we’ve had city regions as some kind of half-hearted attempt to have a spatial strategy after the previous administration ripped up the spatial plan. But where does that leave the Valleys? Where does that leave rural west Wales? Where is the strategy there? Again, there is a vacuum of ideas, unfortunately, at the heart of the Government’s economic strategy currently. We’ve suggested actually creating, to fill that vacuum, targeted and focused development agencies in order to get the kind of strategic leadership that we have lacked so far from the Government. The obsession that underlies the Government’s policy is jobs. Job target numbers—which actually, often, are specious, as we have found out—actually aren’t, at a national level, the key problem now with the Welsh economy. I mean, the Government of course points out that the Welsh unemployment is lower now than the UK unemployment rate. So, it's not that we're doing worse on unemployment that explains our poorer economic performance; actually, it's at a much deeper level. It's about competitiveness, it's about productivity. It's not the number of jobs, it's not the headline count. It's the quality of jobs, the types of business sectors, the number of start-ups and the entrepreneurial culture that we need to create in order to create the businesses of the future. That's where we should be investing, rather than in this old-style, headcount, press-release-driven approach to handing out free money to businesses, which, as, sadly, we've seen, often don't deliver on the jobs that were promised. We've seen a number of examples of that recently: Universal Engineering, Kukd, Kancoat, et cetera.

We realise that failure is part and parcel of the economy, but when we're talking about public money, we need to make sure that we are investing it where it will have the greatest effect, particularly when we saw in the competitiveness figures out today—it's sobering reading, isn't it? Out of 379 local authority areas, Wales has five in the lowest 10, in the bottom 10: Carmarthenshire, Caerphilly, Ceredigion, Merthyr Tydfil, Blaenau Gwent, right at the bottom. And, again, the cupboard is bare at the moment in terms of economic policies from this Government that are targeted at those areas. The Circuit of Wales, of course, is an inspiring idea that I would urge the Government to stop prevaricating on. That's a project that has been seven years in the making and promises to be transformational in that area. That's the kind of thinking actually coming from the private sector, where the public sector, unfortunately, by changing the goalposts constantly, is holding us back.

We’ve presented our own ideas in our programme for opposition. I think it's a positive move, and maybe it says something, actually, when we’ve yet to see the programme for government. We’ve had the programme for opposition. There are more ideas coming from the opposition benches currently than are coming from the people that have their hands on the levers of power. That has to change if we’re going to actually change the economic state of Wales. We are very much supportive of the idea of creating a national development agency. We created a template that the world copied through the Welsh Development Agency—a fantastic brand, but a model in terms of how you develop and restructure an economy. Of course, we want to do it for the twenty-first century. We're not about actually staying with the policies of the past. That's the problem, I think, with the Government going back to this grant aid obsession. We want a WDA for the twenty-first century. The Government, through the innovation advisory council, is consulting with business—and I understand there's a very positive response—on the idea of creating a national innovation agency. Is that a quango? We often get the criticism, ‘Oh, you just want to create quangos’. Well, it's an arm’s-length body that has expertise, that actually speaks the same language of business, has a particular focus, and will get on with the job.

And the same is true of our proposal to drive up infrastructure investment in Wales. We saw the news from the Scottish Government that they are bringing forward plans to drive up infrastructure investment by £4 billion next year. That's the kind of leadership that we need, and the Government needs tools to be able to do that, people who have the expertise in terms of funding infrastructure investment, in terms of managing large-scale projects. That will never be within the Welsh civil service, and that's why creating a national infrastructure commission is so important.