Senedd Cymru (Welsh Parliament), 12 October 2016

335 contributions from 47 members. The official report.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

I call the National Assembly to order.

1. 1. Questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Environment and Rural Affairs

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The first item on our agenda this afternoon is questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Environment and Rural Affairs, and to ask the first question, Vikki Howells.

Vikki Howells (Labour, Cynon Valley)

1. Will the Minister provide an update on how the Welsh Government is supporting farmers in the Cynon Valley? OAQ(5)0042(ERA)

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Thank you. The rural development programme is the main mechanism for supporting Wales’s farmers, including smaller upland holdings and marginal farms, such as those in the Cynon Valley, through agri-environment and investment schemes where they are eligible and qualify. Support is also available through Glastir and Farming Connect.

Vikki Howells (Labour, Cynon Valley)

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. I recently met with a group of farmers in Ynysybwl, which is a marginal farmland area in my constituency, at a meeting organised by the National Farmers Union. We discussed the acidic quality of local soil, and it was suggested that liming of the soil in the area may benefit farmers, but would also bring environmental improvements. Would the Welsh Government consider building this idea into current and future farmer support schemes?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Thank you, and I’m very pleased you took up the farming union’s invitations to visit farms in your constituency. Welsh Government officials have regular and very productive engagement with farming stakeholders on Glastir, and that includes, obviously, the farming unions. European Commission rules require agri-environment support to pay for activities that exceed usual farming practice, so liming would really be part of usual farming practice. I think future support really is about primarily driving transformational change across the industry to become more sustainable, profitable, and resilient.

Andrew RT Davies (Conservative, South Wales Central)

Cabinet Secretary, obviously, the rural development plan offers a level of support to agriculture, whether it be in the Cynon Valley or anywhere else in South Wales Central, or indeed Wales. The Government is committed to bringing a small grants scheme forward in this term. When do you think that small grants scheme might well be available to farmers to access, and what do you have in mind as being permissible under such a small grants scheme, when it is up and running?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Those discussions, you’ll appreciate, four months into this term of Government, are at very early stages, so I can’t give you a date when it will be available. I’ve started to have discussions with my Cabinet colleagues around this. I suppose early thinking is looking at perhaps small pieces of equipment, for instance, through capital grants, but, as I say, it is very early days.

Darren Millar (Conservative, Clwyd West)

2. Will the Minister make a statement on flood risk in Clwyd West? OAQ(5)0040(ERA)

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Thank you. As with many parts of Wales, flood risk in Clwyd West comes from rivers, sea and surface water. To reduce this risk, Clwyd West has benefited from more than £20 million of investment over the past five years, including work at Colwyn Bay, Ruthin and Kinmel Bay.

Darren Millar (Conservative, Clwyd West)

And thank you, Cabinet Secretary, for the investment that the Welsh Government has made available to protect homes and businesses from flooding in my constituency. But, of course, individuals can take some responsibility to protect their own properties as well. And you will be aware that, over the border in England, there are grants of up to £5,000 to individual homeowners, to help them make their properties more resilient, but no such grants are available here in Wales. What consideration has the Cabinet Secretary given to making such grants available, so that people can accept some responsibility, to support making their own properties more flood resilient?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Well, we don’t provide those types of grants to individual homeowners; rather, we focus on funding much larger schemes to benefit groups of properties or communities. We do support property-level resilience, when brought forward, as an appropriate solution by local authorities or by Natural Resources Wales, and we provide grant funding for that purpose. I think what we’re doing is presently allocating budgets for community-wide alleviation schemes, which, in most cases, have a greater cost benefit and also provide a greater level of protection.

Llyr Gruffydd (Plaid Cymru, North Wales)

A tidal lagoon for north Wales, of course, is one possible way of contributing towards tackling flood problems and coastal erosion in Clwyd West. So, could you give us an update on where your Government is in terms of any practical support that you’re giving to developing the potential of a tidal lagoon in north Wales?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Yes, I’ve had discussions with the tidal lagoon company, and one of the advantages they referred to, when talking about the possible tidal lagoon around the Colwyn Bay area, was the fact that it would offer resilience against flooding. So, again, those discussions are ongoing.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

I now call on the party spokespeople to ask questions to the Cabinet Secretary, and, first this week, the Welsh Conservatives’ spokesperson, Paul Davies.

Paul Davies (Conservative, Preseli Pembrokeshire)

Diolch, Lywydd. Cabinet Secretary, in a meeting of the Climate Change, Environment and Rural Affairs Committee on 14 September, you responded to a question on farming regulations, saying that you’ll look to strengthen regulations in some areas when looking at Welsh-specific requirements going forward. Can you clarify what you mean by ‘strengthen’ and tell us what specific regulations you’re actually looking to introduce in the very near future?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Well, I wasn’t being particularly specific. What I think I was saying was that when we have a look, and when we unpick—I think I mentioned that there are 5,000 pieces of legislation within my portfolio in relation to agriculture and fisheries—when we unpick them and we are looking at Welsh specific going forward, it could be that we would strengthen some of the legislation or regulations.

Paul Davies (Conservative, Preseli Pembrokeshire)

Thank you for that clarification. Of course, one set of regulations that the Welsh Government is looking at is in relation to nitrate vulnerable zones. Now, you won’t be surprised that I’ve received plenty of correspondence on this matter, and there are serious concerns regarding these proposals, which could impose huge burdens on farmers and, as a result, force many out of business due to the financial implications, and farmers will see this as just another blow to the agricultural community. I appreciate that these proposals are currently at a consultation stage, but how is the Welsh Government working with farmers affected to ensure that they fully understand the cost and the impact that these regulations will have on their businesses, and will you confirm whether any financial support will be made available to farmers who will face additional costs as a result of complying with any new regulations?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

The member is correct—we are obviously out to consultation at the moment. In fact, just last Monday, 10 October, my officials met with representatives of the National Farmers Union in Pembrokeshire to discuss this, along with local farmers also from Pembrokeshire, and I have to say I’ve been told it was a very positive meeting. I think farmers are very keen to consider how best to stop excessive nitrate pollution in waterways, and they were very happy to bring forward their views. Obviously, all views will be taken into account. So, I’m very pleased you’ve received significant correspondence, and I would urge your constituents to take part in the consultation.

Paul Davies (Conservative, Preseli Pembrokeshire)

I’m grateful to you for that response, but I’m sure that you would agree with me that regulations can, in some cases, represent an obstacle to efficient farming practices and business growth. Therefore, in light of the previous Government’s ‘Working Smarter’ report, will you commit to evaluating the costs attached to farming regulations in Wales and look at ways in which the Welsh Government can ease regulations, thereby lowering the cost of them to farmers, ahead of Britain’s withdrawal from the European Union?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

I do appreciate that there could be an increased cost to certain parts of the farming community. They will have to be taken into account when we look at the full impact assessment that would accompany any new regulations. And I think we have to look at any increased costs that have to be weighed against the benefits to the environment.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The UKIP spokesperson, Neil Hamilton.

Neil Hamilton (UKIP, Mid and West Wales)

Diolch, Lywydd. The Welsh Government, quite rightly accepts that farmers should receive payments for carrying out environmentally responsible tasks. That’s important to all of us, whether we’re farmers or not. As the Cabinet Secretary will know, important agri-environment schemes are the Glastir Entry and Glastir Commons schemes, and that’s vitally important to many upland farmers for income support at a time of falling farm incomes. Now that the Treasury has slightly, at least, clarified post-Brexit funding, will she be prepared to consider opening a new window for Glastir Entry and Glastir Commons applications, and allow those that are in Glastir Entry already to extend their contracts beyond five years?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Certainly, we’re looking at which windows we can open. I want to get as many windows open as soon as possible to ensure we draw down as much funding as possible.

Neil Hamilton (UKIP, Mid and West Wales)

I’m grateful to the Cabinet Secretary for that reply. As she’ll be aware, there are about 1,600 farmers who will be left high and dry from this December if the scheme is not extended, and, if the policy doesn’t change, there’ll be about another 3,000 who will be affected in future years. This scheme is widely held to be a successor to the end of the Tir Mynydd scheme, and £25 million was transferred from one budget to another as part of this. Many farmers think it’s a bit of a betrayal that the window of opportunity has been closed for some time, and, therefore, would she agree with me that it is vitally important that it be reopened?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

I’ve had those discussions with the farmers myself, certainly over the summer at the agricultural shows I visited, and with individual farmers, and we are working very hard to ensure that funding gets to them as quickly as possible.

Neil Hamilton (UKIP, Mid and West Wales)

Thank you. Moving to another environmental scheme—section 15 agreements for sites of special scientific interest. On average, farmers get about £2,175 a year in payments under these agreements, and they are absolutely vital for the protection of landscape, wildlife and the environment. There is a budget cut from 2011 of about a quarter of the budget. In August, Natural Resources Wales said only about 118 of 172 individual management agreements up for renewal this year are likely to be given a new contract. Is the Cabinet Secretary able to give us any further information on this and would she agree with me that it would certainly be very advantageous not just to the farmers themselves, but also to anybody interested in rural life particularly in the uplands that they should be renewed?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

I don’t have that information to hand but I’m happy to write to the Member with that information.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Llefarydd Plaid Cymru, Simon Thomas.

Simon Thomas (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

Diolch, Lywydd. Cabinet Secretary, can I refer you to Part 2 of the Environment (Wales) Act 2016, which sets out a statutory framework for tackling climate change? But, at present, as you’ll know, it’s just a framework with no short-term targets or a delivery plan. Can you outline when and how you’re going to introduce these targets and an emissions reduction plan, and can you confirm that the 40 per cent reduction target of the previous Government in greenhouse gas emissions by 2020 still remains this Government’s target?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

I can certainly confirm that the 40 per cent reduction target by 2020 still stands absolutely for this Government also. I’m looking at the implementation of the environment Act going forward, but, again I don’t have that date to hand, but I’d be very happy to let you know.

Simon Thomas (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

I thank the Cabinet Secretary at least for confirming on the record that the 40 per cent target is still there, because it was missing from the programme for government. But she will know that the recent report by the UK Committee on Climate Change says that we are, unfortunately, highly unlikely to meet our 40 per cent reduction target, and I do wonder how we might do that under the environment Act because the deadline for setting interim carbon budgets, which is going to be an important method of reaching that target, is not due until 2018. So, in light of the fact that we don’t have any kind of emission reduction plan and in light of the fact that she’s just told me that she doesn’t have any details in front of her, how can we have faith that that 2020 target will in fact be met?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Well, not everything is in the programme for government, I should say that, but absolutely that target still stands. But it is incredibly challenging, I wouldn’t hesitate to say that. In relation to the carbon budget, I’m currently meeting all my Cabinet colleagues to discuss how, across Government, each of their portfolios is helping to reduce our emissions. The carbon budgeting process is very important, and we’re obviously into the first one of those budgets, but that work is ongoing and I do want to reassure the Member.

Simon Thomas (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

I thank the Cabinet Secretary. I think we certainly noticed that the programme for government was rather thin and so it’s worth asking what is part of the Government’s programme at the moment. I certainly look forward to examining how carbon budgeting can work within the Assembly and the impact it will have on the Government’s own budget process.

But can I turn now to another Act that the previous Government passed, which is the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015, and goal 7 of that Act sets out that we in Wales want to be

‘A nation, which when doing anything to improve the economic, social, environmental and cultural well-being of Wales, takes account of whether doing such a thing may make a positive contribution to global well-being’,

‘and the capacity to adapt to change (for example climate change)’.

In that context, the European Parliament on 4 October formally ratified the Paris climate change agreement on behalf of the EU. Following the decision to leave the European Union, of course, do you agree with me that it would be good for the National Assembly now to take our global responsibility seriously, as set out under goal 7 of the well-being of future generations Act, and for us as an Assembly to also formalise and formally ratify the Paris agreement?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Well, it does seem that we can’t win. Last term, we were criticised for having too big a document for our programme for government and this time we’re criticised for it being too thin. Perhaps next time the Welsh Labour Government will have the absolute perfect one. I think that you do raise an important issue around Paris, and I will be representing Wales at the COP22 in Marrakech next month, but I think this is certainly something we can have discussions on because it is very important that we show that we’re very happy to play our full part.

Andrew RT Davies (Conservative, South Wales Central)

3. Will the Minister make a statement on her Welsh Government’s priorities for the fifth Assembly for rural communities across South Wales Central? OAQ(5)0041(ERA)

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

We have been absolutely clear about our commitment to provide support to deliver successful and sustainable rural communities across Wales. We co-finance our rural development programme with the European Union and so expect the UK Government to provide an unconditional guarantee to fund all projects contracted under the programme for their lifetime.

Andrew RT Davies (Conservative, South Wales Central)

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary, for that answer. One of the things that was brought in in the third Assembly by the Presiding Officer, when she was rural affairs Minister, was a change to the planning system for rural dwellings under TAN 6. I appreciate that planning isn’t in your portfolio of responsibilities—

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

It is.

Andrew RT Davies (Conservative, South Wales Central)

It is; better still then—the question has more relevance than I thought it was going to have. [Laughter.] Being a regional Member, I have three different councils in South Wales Central that interpret that planning guidance in very different ways, they do. For succession in farm businesses, but also for rural businesses, this provision within the planning system is of vital consideration to allow businesses to move forward. Are you minded, Cabinet Secretary, to do a review of how TAN 6 is being implemented across Wales because, obviously, consistency is vital so that businesses do not feel that they are being hindered in the succession planning or in just being able to expand their businesses and diversify into other areas?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

I can say that, yes, I am responsible for planning. Certainly, in my discussions with farmers, they haven’t raised too many concerns about TAN 6. In fact, they are very grateful and happy that it’s there. But I think that consistency is absolutely correct, and obviously we have 25 planning authorities across Wales and, with anything like that, I think you always get a level of inconsistency. I think the Planning (Wales) Act 2015, as we take that forward, will help in that way. But I’m very happy to look at anything that I think will improve planning going forward.

Llyr Gruffydd (Plaid Cymru, North Wales)

4. Will the Minister make a statement on biosafety on farms in Wales? OAQ(5)0044(ERA)[W]

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Thank you. Biosecurity is our first line of defence against serious notifiable infectious diseases like foot and mouth disease or bovine TB. It should be a vital part of daily farming life, helping to ensure that animals stay healthy and that businesses remain profitable.

Llyr Gruffydd (Plaid Cymru, North Wales)

Thank you for that response. One of the major frustrations that farmers are facing at the moment is the six-day standstill rule. There’s been much talk from the previous Minister in the previous Government that it was an intention to move to a model based on quarantine units. Can you give us an update on where you are with that particular development, and how soon will we see farmers being given that option of using those units rather than closing their farms down for six days?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Yes, this has been a significant piece of work. I know my officials have been working very closely with the livestock identification advisory group on the proposals for the quarantine units and we do continue to work with our stakeholders on the delivery of the project. I think what the new arrangements will do is simplify the standstill regime by replacing complex exemptions for isolation facilities, and I anticipate now the introduction of the units to be late spring of next year.

Suzy Davies (Conservative, South Wales West)

The ‘State of Nature 2016 Wales’ report states that land management is an important factor in conservation, as over 70 per cent of Wales is made up of farmland. Management, of course, includes safety management. The authors of the report have recently called on Welsh Government to do a number of things, including support land management that helps to maintain and enhance nature and the resilience of ecosystems, which of course are vulnerable to mistakes in terms of biosafety. What’s missing from our agri-environmental schemes to help support biodiversity—biosafety, sorry?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

I’m not aware that there’s anything missing. But if the Member thinks there is specifically, if she’d like to write to me, I’ll certainly look into it.

Neil Hamilton (UKIP, Mid and West Wales)

5. What assessment has the Welsh Government made as to the likely costs and benefits of complying with the nitrates directive for individual businesses in the proposed designated areas? OAQ(5)0046(ERA)

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

I am currently consulting on the review of the designated areas and action programme to tackle nitrate pollution in Wales and, subject to the outcome of the consultation, I intend to introduce new legislation next year. A full regulatory impact assessment will be produced at that time.

Neil Hamilton (UKIP, Mid and West Wales)

I thank the Cabinet Secretary for that answer. I was going to suggest that this regulatory impact assessment perhaps ought to be produced sooner than when she currently expects, because Welsh Ministers are committed to considering the impact of subordinate legislation on business, according to their own code of conduct, and it would be much better if this formed part of the consultation exercise itself because then the responses to the consultation would be better informed and Ministers could take better decisions as a consequence.

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

I don’t agree with that.

Angela Burns (Conservative, Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire)

Minister, in regard to the proposals for a nitrate-vulnerable zone along the sweep of the Cleddau and above Pendine, I’ve got great concerns because, both of those areas, you only have one direction of travel—back inland. Have you given any consideration, or what efforts have your officers done to ensure or to review the potential damage that could occur to land that is just outside of the nitrate-vulnerable zone, which would not only have to spread their own slurry, but in fact be the receivers for those who are trying to ship their slurry away from the zone?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

I think part of that work was done, and one of the reasons why we’ve gone out to consultation is on the back of that. I really would urge the Member and all constituents who’ve got an interest in this to take part in the consultation, because I’m very interested to hear people’s views. If other Members or their constituents have views around different approaches they think we could take, I’m very happy to consider those also.

John Griffiths (Labour, Newport East)

6. What steps will be taken to widen access to the great Welsh outdoors? OAQ(5)0049(ERA)

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

The Welsh Government is keen to secure improvements in the opportunities available for people to access the outdoors. Full consideration of the range of issues raised by the earlier review is taking place but more work is needed before taking any decisions on potential new measures to increase access.

John Griffiths (Labour, Newport East)

I wondered, Minister, if you could provide the Chamber with a greater degree of detail on the timelines, because I know that there is a great deal of frustration in terms of taking this work forward, which has been debated and considered for quite some time. Later on, we’ll be talking about how we get Wales more physically active and healthy, and I think a major part of that is opening up the great Welsh outdoors to a greater extent than is currently the case.

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Thank you. You’ll be aware we had a significant number of responses to the Green Paper—I think it was approaching 6,000, if I remember rightly—so it’s taking some time to have a look at all of them. But I did recently provide national parks and areas of outstanding natural beauty with an additional just over £0.5 million so that they could look at their priority outdoor recreations. I think people do absolutely appreciate the outdoors, and it’s great to see. I know in my own constituency, I was in Maes y Pant quarry in Gresford, where you see these outdoor gyms coming up, and I’ve seen a few all over Wales. So, it’s really good to see things like that being done. I think we need to consider very carefully the way forward, and I would hope that I will be bringing something forward early next year.

David Lloyd (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

Further to that response, and on the same path as John Griffiths, I would like to press you further, because this is vitally important in terms of health. I know we’re talking about environmental issues here, but obviously there is an overlap here and there will be far-reaching benefit to the health service, because, as doctors, we’re always recommending people to go out walking. Well, it makes much easier if the paths are already there.

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Yes, absolutely. Dr Lloyd makes a very important point there, I think. You’ll be aware that we had an assessment of the health benefits of walking on the Wales coastal path back in 2014, and that concluded the economic value associated with improved health through walking on the coastal path was £18.3 million back then. So, absolutely, we can fully appreciate that is the case. And, again, we are doing significant work and putting significant funding into this issue.

Mohammad Asghar (Conservative, South Wales East)

Increasing access to the countryside could deliver significant benefits in improving the health and well-being of the public. However, concerns have been expressed that unrestricted access to the countryside could cause environmental and economic damage. Does the Cabinet Secretary recognise these concerns, and how will she ensure widening access will take into account the need to maintain a viable working countryside in Wales?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Yes, absolutely, I recognise those concerns and you won’t be surprised that, in my portfolio, I get it from both sides. I think that is the absolute point: it’s about a balance between widening access and ensuring that we protect the environment also.

Gareth Bennett (UKIP, South Wales Central)

Thanks, Minister, for your earlier answers, and I was pleased that you mentioned the Wales coastal path, which we’ve had since 2012, and that’s a great step forward. But, of course, many of the near 900 miles are blighted by coastal erosion, which was also mentioned in an earlier debate today—or question. I wondered what measures you could take to maintain access to the paths in light of the erosion, which particularly affects the path between Penarth and Barry in my area.

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Well, that is obviously a very important piece of work and, at the moment, we are drawing together with local authorities the £150 million coastal-risk-management programme for that purpose.

Dawn Bowden (Labour, Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney)

Can I thank the Cabinet Secretary for her response previously on this? The active travel plan, which I referred to yesterday, in fact, in relation to road safety around schools, also places an expectation on local authorities in Wales to start drawing up maps of proposed new networks for walking and cycling routes. In Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney, as you probably know, there are already excellent facilities such as the Taff, Bargoed and BikePark Wales encouraging walking and cycling in that area. But can I ask the Cabinet Secretary: does she believe that the active travel plan requirements provide a golden opportunity for local authorities to look at potentially widening access to the great Welsh outdoors, in consultation with those already providing such activities?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Yes, absolutely I do. The Act doesn’t sit within my portfolio—it sits within Rebecca Evans’s—but I’d be very happy to do some further work with Rebecca on that issue.

Lynne Neagle (Labour, Torfaen)

7. What action is the Welsh Government taking in relation to mobile animal exhibits, including wild animals in travelling circuses? OAQ(5)0052(ERA)

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Thank you. The scientific literature review submitted earlier this year identified welfare considerations on the use of wild animals in travelling circuses and in corporate events, entertainment and educational settings. I’ve written to UK Ministers and I’m considering all options, and will make a statement before the Christmas recess.

Lynne Neagle (Labour, Torfaen)

Thank you, Minister, and I’m aware that Wales is leading the way in this area and that your predecessor commissioned a report by Professor Stephen Harris to try and tackle some of these issues. Can you update us on what kind of considerations you are looking at with a view to improving the health and safety of such animals?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

I thank the Member for that question. Professor Harris identified in his report that a large number of captive wild animals are being used in, as I say, corporate entertainment and in educational settings. To be honest, that area concerns me more, because I think that we don’t know the numbers that are being used or anything about their welfare. You will have seen the approach taken in England. There’s been a recent announcement in Scotland that they’re going to introduce legislation in 2018. We don’t have the powers in this area, so I have written to Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Ministers to start those discussions to see what work we can take forward. And, as I say, I will bring forward a statement before Christmas.

Bethan Sayed (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

Cabinet Secretary, I was wondering if the Welsh Government would consider taking a more legislation-based approach to animal welfare in this Assembly. I remember in the last Assembly, sitting on the Petitions Committee, that we received a petition calling for an animal abuse register, which would obviously incorporate those in circuses, should it be required. The Minister at the time wrote to the committee to say that the Welsh Government wasn’t considering it then, but I’m wondering if you would at least commit to investigating the idea, given the benefits it could deliver not only for animal welfare but in actually profiling perpetrators in other circumstances. We know, if you do abuse an animal, you potentially may go on to abuse human beings in the future. I think it’s something that we should consider as very important.

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

I haven’t considered introducing legislation. We are looking at the different codes of practice we have for different animals, and certainly it’s something that I’ve asked the chief veterinary officer and officials to monitor. But I’m very happy to look at the point you raised; I think that’s a very interesting point about, as you say, perpetrators with animals. I certainly will be very happy to look at that, yes.

Mohammad Asghar (Conservative, South Wales East)

The Welsh Conservatives are committed to ending the use of wild animals in circuses. Does the Cabinet Secretary agree with me that laws relating to the welfare of animals, whether they are domestic pets, farm livestock or wildlife, would benefit from being consolidated into a single Act of this Assembly to ensure greater protection and enforcement in Wales?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

I think the way society treats its animals says a lot about it, and I’ve just been over—. I was very pleased to sponsor the RSPCA event bringing forward awards for community work going on across our public sector in relation to animal welfare, and it’s clear we are a nation of animal lovers. I haven’t looked at bringing forward one piece of legislation. As I mentioned in my previous answer to Bethan Jenkins, I am looking at the codes of practice, what needs to be reviewed, what needs to be refreshed, and we can certainly monitor them. You will have heard my earlier answer to Lynne Neagle regarding wild animals in circuses and mobile animal exhibits, because I think that is an area that we don’t know much about, and I really want to see a significant piece of work in that area.

Bethan Sayed (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

8. Will the Minister make a statement on the Natural Resources Wales investigation into the fire at South Wales Wood Recycling’s site near Heol y Cyw? OAQ(5)0039(ERA)

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Natural Resources Wales await the outcome of the South Wales Fire and Rescue Service and police investigation into the cause of the fire. They are reviewing the site’s management systems including those for stockpiling waste and will be increasing inspections of the facility.

Bethan Sayed (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

Thank you for the answer. I’m afraid I missed the short debate by Huw Irranca-Davies on this issue, because I was chairing a cross-party group, but I’d like to put on record that I support all of his proposals, particularly those regarding directors and restricting legal challenges to stop notices, not least because it may be of benefit in other ways, such as in opencast mining. So, I was heartened by the Cabinet Secretary’s response when she said she would be considering at least some of those proposals in one form or another.

The issue that I personally have from constituents in that particular area is that one of the senior members of Bridgend County Borough Council, in the cabinet, is also a company secretary to this particular firm. So, is there an argument that, if there is any refresh of regulations, that they should prevent those responsible for enforcement from being involved in any business that may have enforcement action taken against it? Will you look into this please?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

We did have a very good short debate brought forward by my colleague Huw Irranca-Davies, and other Assembly Members also contributed to it. I am going to meet with Huw Irranca-Davies. I came forward with some proposals, as did he, and I’m going to look at all options going forward.

Suzy Davies (Conservative, South Wales West)

Having spoken to residents in the area and Natural Resources Wales to discuss the ongoing situation, I think it’s clear that change is needed and I thank you for your response to the short debate last week. In the meantime, though, have you considered using your powers under section 61 of the Environmental Permitting (England and Wales) Regulations 2010 to issue a direction to Natural Resources Wales to use its own powers in a specified manner? Those powers do include the power to suspend a licence.

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

I haven’t specifically looked at that, but I absolutely agree with you that change is needed and, as I say, those discussions will start now. I’ve asked officials to make this a priority, because, clearly, the short debate, I think, threw up a lot of issues that we need to address. But you have my assurance that we will be looking to change things going forward.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Thank you for the answers, Cabinet Secretary, and I also endorse the issues and the need to change regulations. But let’s look beyond the issue of the stockpile at Heol y Cyw, because there are many biomass plants that operate similar stockpiles—I’ve got two in my constituency, and a third one is proposed, one of the biggest in Wales. We want to also ensure that the planning regulations look very carefully at these proposals to ensure that, as planning development takes place, these conditions are placed upon any developer to ensure that this doesn’t happen within a situation like that.

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Yes, absolutely. I’m very happy to do that. It’s really important that the proposals we bring forward are appropriate and pertinent.

Caroline Jones (UKIP, South Wales West)

Cabinet Secretary, given the number of incidents that have occurred at similar sites across Wales and concerns over the health implications of the large amounts of particulate matter generated in this type of facility, will the Welsh Government now consider introducing a moratorium on this type of plant? Will you also consider introducing tougher monitoring on existing licence holders and more stringent penalties for licence breaches in future?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

As I said in my answer to Suzy Davies, I absolutely accept change is needed. I know you participated in the short debate, so you will have heard my answers. So, we’re looking at all options going forward.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Ynys Môn)

9. Will the Minister make a statement on the environmental impact of the National Grid’s plans across Ynys Môn? OAQ(5)0050(ERA)[W]

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

There are a number of statutory requirements in place to ensure the National Grid considers the environmental impact of its proposals across Ynys Môn. The National Grid opened its latest consultation last week on the north Wales connection project to connect Wylfa Newydd to the existing grid.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Ynys Môn)

The Cabinet Secretary will be aware of the decision by National Grid to place cables in a tunnel under the Menai strait. We hope to see a new bridge constructed to go with the Britannia bridge. I’m sure that the Cabinet Secretary would agree with me that there would be less environmental impact in placing those cables on that bridge, rather than actually building a bridge and digging a tunnel. But if the grid goes for the tunnel option in order to protect the natural environment of the Menai area, particularly the visual environment, isn’t the same thing true on the need to protect the natural environment of Anglesey as a whole, by undergrounding across the whole island?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

The National Grid will need to complete an environment impact assessment. They need to be very sensitive to the environment, and that includes lines under the Menai strait, due to specific land designations. The First Minister is meeting the new chief executive of National Grid next week to discuss the work currently being undertaken, and that will include discussions about crossings of the Menai strait.

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

National Grid launched a consultation into the proposed location of pylons and a tunnel under the Menai strait on 5 October, running until 16 December, and I’m sure you’ll join me in encouraging residents to respond to that consultation. But how do you propose to address concerns expressed by the Pylon the Pressure group in north Wales that the wording of the Welsh Government’s technical advice note 8 policy document, that

‘laying high voltage cables underground is usually 6-20 times more expensive than a pole-mounted system’

is, I quote, ‘incorrect and misleading’?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

I would encourage everyone who’s got an interest in this area to take part in the consultation. Obviously, it’s for the UK Government to consent to the National Grid’s north Wales reinforcement project, so, whilst we are involved in discussions, as I say, it is a matter for the UK Government to do that.

Nick Ramsay (Conservative, Monmouth)

10. Will the Minister make a statement on the Welsh Government’s funding priorities for supporting the Welsh coastline? OAQ(5)0048(ERA)

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Thank you. Responding to the challenges our coastal communities face in adapting to a changing climate is a funding priority for supporting our Welsh coastline. This Government is working with local authorities preparing a £150 million programme of investment in coastal risk management.

Nick Ramsay (Conservative, Monmouth)

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. Although, admittedly, my constituency has a very short coastline, namely the Black Rock picnic site—[Laughter.]—which I do enjoy, I’m sure you would agree with me the Welsh coastline belongs to all of us. Many of my constituents appreciate visiting the coastline along the rest of Wales. Recently, I attended the National Trust Welsh coast event in the Senedd, and at that event I discussed with the National Trust ways that the Welsh Government can support the National Trust in developing their interest in the Welsh coastline. Can you tell us what discussions, if any, you’ve had with the National Trust regarding financial priorities for protecting our coasts? Do you still stick to the policy of managed retreat that was believed in by many of your predecessors, rather than actually properly supporting and defending our coastline from threats of erosion and global warming?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

I did think that when I saw the question, but I do know there are interests in coastal risks in Monmouthshire, and I quite agree with you about the Black Rock picnic site. I haven’t had any specific discussions with the National Trust on this issue, but I will check if my officials have, and write to the Member.

Simon Thomas (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

11. Will the Minister make a statement on a national marine plan for Wales? OAQ(5)0043(ERA)[W]

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Diolch. Officials are currently drafting the first ever Welsh national marine plan. I’ve recently agreed to launch the formal consultation by the summer of next year. The plan will set out our policy for the sustainable use of the marine area for the next 20 years.

Simon Thomas (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

Thank you for that response, but I’m sure you would agree with me that this plan is long overdue. We’ve been awaiting it now for so long and it is disappointing that we won’t see it until next summer. But would the Cabinet Secretary confirm that the plan will be based on habitat or ecosystems management, and that that, more than the spatial plan, will drive this plan?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

I do appreciate that we have been waiting for this, and I have—I think I said at the committee when I came for scrutiny that it is a priority, but it’s important we get it right. It’s very complex. It’s the first one—I think we’re being pioneering in Wales, having this plan. I think it’s very important to help us manage our seas in a much more integrated way, because we are seeing much more activity in the marine area. I also wanted to take into consideration the Hendry review, and Ken Skates and I met with Charles Hendry last month. So, that’s why it’s been slightly more delayed. If we can do it earlier than next summer, I’ll be very happy to do that, but we are looking at all options.

Steffan Lewis (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

12. Will the Minister make a statement on recycling projects in South Wales East? OAQ(5)0036(ERA)

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Thank you. Recycling in Wales is a success story, though there are challenges for some south-east Wales local authorities. Three local authorities failed to meet the recycling target for 2015-16. Each authority has been asked to explain why it failed to meet the target, and I will consider these explanations.

Steffan Lewis (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

I’m grateful to the Cabinet Secretary for that response. As she said, there is great variety in the local authorities in terms of their performance with recycling. Given the Government’s announcement on the future of local government in Wales, with collaboration and even regionalisation going to happen, does she foresee, in the near future, that recycling projects will happen at a regional level, or even at a national level, rather than seeing that diversity from one authority to another?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Probably, going forward, that’s something that we would need to consider. At the moment, I am more interested in looking at what’s happening on a local authority basis. I mentioned that it is a real success story, recycling in Wales. We are way ahead of the game, and if we were done on an individual basis in Europe we would be fourth in the league tables. I mentioned that three have failed to reach their targets, and I have written to all the council leaders asking why this is so I can consider that. But I do think that recycling in Wales is something we should celebrate.

Caroline Jones (UKIP, South Wales West)

13. Will the Minister outline how the Welsh government’s energy policies will lead to the diversification of the energy mix? OAQ(5)0045(ERA)

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

During the transition to a low-carbon economy, our policies support a diverse energy mix in Wales, which delivers an affordable secure supply to protect the most vulnerable in society at a cost that does not threaten industry and jobs.

Caroline Jones (UKIP, South Wales West)

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. My region has been blighted by the industrialisation of wind energy as a result of TAN 8 and is being targeted for unconventional gas extraction. We will also play host to the world’s first tidal lagoon. We need a truly diverse energy mix, but renewable technology should not be treated like twentieth century power plants. Cabinet Secretary, do you agree with me that renewables have an important role to play in meeting our future energy needs, but that schemes have to be local community-backed, small-scale projects rather than large renewable power plants?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Well, we are supportive of appropriately sited large energy investments, and that includes our onshore renewables and marine, as well as the low-carbon environmental goods and services sector. Again, I think we’ve got a really good news story here in Wales, and I work with my Cabinet colleagues under the framework set out in the Environment (Wales) Act 2016 to plan the transition to a low-carbon society in Wales, and that includes actions to decarbonise our energy sector.

Julie Morgan (Labour, Cardiff North)

14. Will the Minister provide an update on banning the use of snares in Wales? OAQ(5)0047(ERA)

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

The Welsh Government’s code of practice on snares places the welfare of animals at its core. The code was published last year and provides clear guidance on the operation and inspection of fox snares. I would be prepared to consider taking further steps, should the code prove ineffective.

Julie Morgan (Labour, Cardiff North)

I thank the Cabinet Secretary for that response, which is encouraging. I am sure she’s aware that, in Wales, more than 1,000 pets and wild animals are caught every day in snares, and 370,000 animals are snared every year, according to figures from the League Against Cruel Sports. Public opinion is clearly in favour of a ban. So, can I urge her to see how the code of practice is actually operating? Certainly, there is public demand for a ban on snares, so could she look into that, please?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

I said in an earlier answer to Mohammad Asghar that the way we treat our animals really reflects on our society’s values. As the code of practice states, snares should only be used when other control methods are not available. I am very happy to assure the Member that I will monitor it, and if it’s not effective, I will look at further action. We are also discussing with stakeholders how the code is being implemented to give me that assurance.

Mike Hedges (Labour, Swansea East)

15. Will the Minister make a statement on the actions being taken to stop rivers flooding? OAQ(5)0038(ERA)

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

In my 28 June statement, I set out this Government’s approach and priorities for flood and coastal risk management. We are investing £55 million this year on reducing risk and maintaining our existing assets. This includes major work in St Asaph, Boverton, Risca, Newport and Talybont in Gwynedd.

Mike Hedges (Labour, Swansea East)

First of all, Minister, can I highlight the success of the floodplain in Ynysforgan, which is not only in my constituency but is also half a mile away from where I live? It’s an area that used to be under an awful lot of flooding over a period of time, but that has now stopped because the floodplain has worked so successfully. Are there plans to bring the floodplains on to other rivers, so they can have the benefit that we’ve got in Ynysforgan?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

I thank Mike Hedges. It’s always really good to receive positive feedback on how our flood schemes are performing, and I think the £7 million Swansea scheme is an example of how flood investment can bring multiple benefits, and, certainly, having looked at it, it brings benefits for biodiversity, for instance, and amenity improvements.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

I thank the Cabinet Secretary.

Roedd honno’n batrwm o sesiwn gwestiynau.

2. 2. Questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Communities and Children

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

I now move to the next item on our agenda: questions of the Cabinet Secretary for Communities and Children, and the first question is from Lee Waters.

Lee Waters (Labour, Llanelli)

1. Will the Minister provide an update on measures to help young care leavers access affordable housing? OAQ(5)0052(CC)

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I thank the Member for his question. I am committed to doing all I can to meet the housing needs of young care leavers. Later this month I will launch a new accommodation framework for care leavers, which has been developed in partnership with Barnardo’s and Shelter Cymru to promote best practice.

Lee Waters (Labour, Llanelli)

Thank you, Minister. Last June, the Public Policy Institute for Wales warned that many young care leavers face a lack of affordable housing and an earlier cliff edge to independent living than most young people. Their report called for a national framework for accommodation and support to improve consistency of provision across Wales. Could the Minister update us on how their report is being addressed?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I thank the Member for his important supplementary question. The report from the Public Policy Institute for Wales has action we are taking, not only for care leavers, but on youth homelessness more generally—action already taken in line with the report’s recommendations, for example: the development of a care leavers accommodation framework, as I said, which I’ll be launching on 19 October, and continuing our drive to action to eradicate the use of bed and breakfasts for young people through strengthened guidance, joint working, and new voluntary arrangements, which will be the evidence and the improvements that are needed.

Llyr Gruffydd (Plaid Cymru, North Wales)

Cabinet Secretary, both you and I attended yesterday a young people’s forum organised by the children’s commissioner for 15 to 24-year-olds with experience of care, and not only was there a clear message coming from that forum that care leavers need help to access affordable housing, but they also need help to retain their housing. In a recent report by the Children’s Society, they called for care leavers to be exempted from paying council tax until they were 25. Now, although that focused on England, I’m sure we can see what the potential advantages would be here in Wales. Certainly, it would bolster the pathway plans required to prepare care leavers for the rest of their lives, really. So, is that something that the Cabinet Secretary will be willing to consider?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

Well, I’ve got a working group looking at children in care settings and looked-after children. I will ask them to give me further advice on these issues. I do think that we are not doing what we can do for these young people, and we should join up the groups that are involved in the intervention programmes to give people a better start in life. These are very vulnerable young people and we need to step up to the plate.

Darren Millar (Conservative, Clwyd West)

Minister, the Children’s Society report also referred to the fact that there’s very poor financial education and that many young people find it difficult to maintain their tenancies once they leave care. And, again, at the forum yesterday, it was quite clear that there was a call for support workers to be allowed to work alongside care leavers right up until the age of 25. That’s not something that is available at the moment here in Wales. What consideration have you given to extending the provision for support workers to work with young care leavers up to the age of 25, and is this something that could perhaps be added to the accommodation framework that you’ve referred to?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

Yes, the care leavers accommodation framework will help organisations to work together to help children leaving care, to prepare them for independent living and ensure they find a suitable home. I am interested in the support mechanism following that. Through Supporting People we also provide £124 million to help vulnerable people access accommodation, including £13.7 million of that for care leavers and young people.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Question 2 [OAQ(5)0039(CC)] has been transferred for written answer by the Cabinet Secretary for Economy and Infrastructure.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Therefore, we now move to questions from party spokespersons, and first of all the Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Bethan Jenkins.

Bethan Sayed (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

Diolch. Cabinet Secretary, yesterday we heard from your Government about how you’re going to tackle hate crimes. Unfortunately, the political climate is now such that hate crimes have been partly legitimised by the rhetoric coming from many politicians and elements of the media. Can you tell us today whether you believe that immigration to Wales has been a good thing in helping to develop and diversify our nation here in Wales?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I agree with all the contents of the Member’s question.

Bethan Sayed (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

I didn’t have time to sit down, hardly. [Laughter.] I’m glad that you agree with me, Cabinet Secretary. The previous Westminster Government took a decision to deny public funds to many migrants, including those from A8 countries. This led to an Amnesty International report in 2008 noting it had led to women being unable to access refuges when fleeing violent relationships, a factor noted as significant in several murders and disappearances of women. The following year, a Shelter Cymru study on housing conditions of eastern European migrant workers found that because they had no recourse to public funds, there was significant homelessness, including pregnant women. We also know of cases where children were being threatened with being taken into care, and by 2010 around 1,000 children were in immigration detention centres. Do you regret New Labour’s approach of restricting support to the children of migrants, and how will you work to support this sector in the future?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

The agreement was going really well at first. [Laughter.] Can I say that the principle of her question is something that does concern me, and no access to public funds for individuals is something that I am looking at? I’ve got a new advisory group looking at the issues around domestic violence circumstances, and part of the investigation I’m asking them to look at is around that—and the funding element for refuge and for legal aid as well.

Bethan Sayed (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

Thank you for that reply. Despite these traumatising stories that I’ve exemplified here today, Cabinet Secretary, there was no impact on opinion polls about immigration, with a substantial minority believing that no controls even existed, despite what I have just said. So, this shows that appeasement of the far right isn’t working for its own terms. The people who are supposedly being reassured by tough action don’t realise that tough action is actually taking place. This week you will have seen that Plaid Cymru, the SNP and the Greens united to issue a statement condemning the rhetoric coming from the Conservative Party last week, but your own party in Westminster has simply called for immigration to be reduced. Will you therefore today be different to your Westminster Labour colleagues and join with the Plaid Cymru and the SNP in condemning the negative rhetoric, and ensure that the Welsh Government takes a lead in tackling the myths about immigration?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I thank the Member for her final question. We are the Labour Party in Wales and we are the Government in Wales and we have a very definitive line on hate crime. I intend to take the lead to drive forward the Welsh Government’s tackling hate crime framework for action. What I do hope that the Member will join us together in is condemning the actions of individuals and political parties that seek to gain favour by the hate crimes that I believe they cause in communities, and cause great upheaval to many people. I think we don’t have to look too far away from us to where that actually happens quite locally.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Welsh Conservative spokesperson, Mark Isherwood.

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

Diolch. Yesterday, you told us that you were minded to phase out the Communities First programme, and will look afresh at how the Welsh Government can support resilient communities empowered with a strong voice in the decisions that affect their everyday lives. I shared with you a host of statutory and third sector organisation examples where they’re actually making things happen on the ground using co-production, which is not about austerity but is part of a global revolution with origins going back almost half a century. Given that these projects are already helping to deliver the building of resilient communities in Wales, can you provide us with your definition of what co-production means?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

Well, I refer to my statement yesterday, which the Member has quoted from. I think we have to have a new offer for tackling issues to make communities resilient for the future. That’s what I outlined yesterday in my statement. The issue of introducing the 100,000 new job apprenticeships by this Welsh Labour Government is one that’s important to communities that he shares, and I share too. The issue of quality childcare, which is the best offer for working parents anywhere in the UK, is something that I hope he will join me in celebrating in serving the public that, again, we represent.

There are many options where we need to tackle the deep-seated roots of poverty and enablement for the communities of the future. This is something I set out in my statement, and I will update Members in the new year.

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

Co-production enables citizens and professionals to share power and work together in equal partnership, creating opportunities for people to access support when they need it and to contribute to social change, acknowledging that everyone is an expert in their own lives.

I also yesterday quoted Oxfam Cymru when they said the Welsh Government must secure lasting change, embedding the sustainable livelihoods approach in all policy and service delivery in Wales, which means helping people identify the strengths and assets they already have in order to tackle to root problem preventing them from reaching their potential.

Given, again, that this approach has been embraced by some Members of the Welsh Government and should be central to new programme development and delivery, can you provide us with your understanding of the meaning of the term ‘strength-based approach’?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I think there are many quality projects out in our communities, not led by Communities First but many of the organisations that the Member referred to today and yesterday, and I support those. What we have to do is join up those programmes with actions and interventions by Government and third sector bodies to make sure that we impact most on the people in need of support. So, I’m not dismissing the programmes that the Member raises—actually, I think we can build on those programmes, and working with ourselves they can have a better offer for our community.

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

Thank you. Well, I hope in going forward you will embrace the definition of the strength-based approach, which is about moving away from a system in which people have their needs assessed and addressed by social services departments and other agencies to a system that protects an individual’s independence, resilience, ability to make choices and well-being by supporting their strengths in a way that allows them to lead and be in control of their independent day-to-day life. I hope that these concepts will be central to driving forward the change that we all earnestly seek.

Again, finally, in a similar context, during the session with the Children, Young People and Education Committee before recess, you stated that Welsh Government would be refreshing its child poverty strategy during this Assembly. There are around 200,000 young children in Wales living in poverty—a higher rate than the UK, England and Scotland levels. What consideration will you give to the Children’s Society’s ‘Good Childhood Report 2016’, which shows that using a child-centred material deprivation index can explain more about variations in a child’s well-being than the traditional measure of household income? Will you consider using these approaches in your refreshed strategy?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I’m grateful to the Member for raising that very important issue. I think what we should look at are the correct indicators, and I will take note of that report when we do refresh the document. I think it’s important that we look at the detail behind that and how we are able to influence change in communities, particular around young people, going forward—they are our future generation.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

UKIP spokesperson, Michelle Brown.

Michelle Brown (UKIP, North Wales)

Thank you, Presiding Officer. The ministerial determination to close John Summers High School in 2017 was announced by Kirsty Williams in August 2016. It is a matter of record that John Summers High School has served more Traveller children than any other school within Flintshire and possibly across Wales. Can the Minister give assurances that the education needs of the Traveller community within Flintshire will be met? Will he give assurances that he will meet with the community to ensure that any measures taken meet with their needs?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I’m grateful for the question. This is a constituency issue for me also, Llywydd, but I will base my response as a Minister. I have had correspondence with Flintshire council and I’ve also had correspondence with residents of that area. I think it is important that the transition is a matter for the local authority and I have spoken to the Cabinet Secretary for Education on these very issues. It is important to that community that there is a resilient educational system fit for that community.

Michelle Brown (UKIP, North Wales)

Over the last few years, many of the main police stations in our towns, certainly in north Wales, have been closed. Follow the signpost to the police and you’ll wind up at a phone on the wall. What representations have you made to the police and crime commissioners and police authorities to ensure that the police service is visible, accessible and effectively builds relationships with local communities?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I meet with the police commissioners on a regular basis and I’ve already had two meetings since becoming Minister responsible for communities. But the Member should be aware that policing is non-devolved to this institution.

Michelle Brown (UKIP, North Wales)

It’s still a community issue though, whether we have that easy access to the police, and obviously Welsh Government does have an input to how much access the local community does have to the police, and that the police service be visible and easy to find.

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I have, as I said, regular meetings with the police and crime commissioners. One of the Welsh Labour positive commitments was around introducing 500 police community support officers to our communities across Wales, which has been very welcome across all of our communities. The matter is a matter for the UK Government, and it is a non-devolved function, but I recognise the issue that, actually, the work that the police do in our communities is valued by many.

Vikki Howells (Labour, Cynon Valley)

3. What action is the Welsh Government taking to improve access to play for children in Cynon Valley? OAQ(5)0043(CC)

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

Thank you for the question. The Welsh Government places great value on play and its importance in the lives of children, including the impact on well-being, health, and future life chances.

Vikki Howells (Labour, Cynon Valley)

Thank you. I was pleased last week to be able to attend the opening of two accessible play areas in my constituency, at Cilfynydd and Glyncoch. In both cases, improvements have been the result of well-supported community campaigns and welcome investment from Rhondda Cynon Taf County Borough Council. Article 31 of the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child sets out a right to play. How is the Welsh Government engaging with partners, like local authorities, to make sure they have play areas that are accessible for all children?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I’d like to congratulate RCT on their investment in your local community too. The Welsh Government has placed a statutory duty on local authorities to assess and, where practical, secure sufficient play opportunities that meet the needs, such as access and inclusion of children and their families. We have produced a toolkit and also fund Play Wales to support them in meeting this duty.

Andrew RT Davies (Conservative, South Wales Central)

Minister, obviously, one of the main planks of public health is to get participation in sport levels up in Wales, and for young people to participate in healthy activity, wherever that might be. One of the things that many sports clubs are struggling with, across my region of South Wales Central, is obviously pitch fees and facility fees. I appreciate this is an issue for local government, but here you almost have a policy objective colliding with decisions taken in county hall.

We understand that there does have to be a charge, because these facilities cost, but where great concern comes in to play is where a lot of these clubs are citing examples in other areas with a disparity in the costs, very often in the same local authority area. How are you working with Cabinet colleagues to drive forward a more coherent policy that links up the public health messages with community participation, and, in particular, local government charges for community facilities?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

The Member raises an important point about accessibility, and price can sometimes be a contributing factor to people not being able to access these issues. I will take this up with the relevant Minister, to have a discussion with her. But we did legislate last year for the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015, which looks at long-term improvement in the well-being of all. This will be something that authorities will have to demonstrate that they’re considering in their actions in relation to access to play too.

Hannah Blythyn (Labour, Delyn)

4. Will the Minister provide an update on housing regeneration schemes in Wales? OAQ(5)0050(CC)

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I thank the Member for Delyn for her question. Our Vibrant and Viable Places areas are taking a whole-place approach to regeneration, and are contributing positively to the housing agenda in Wales, in terms of increasing supply, improving standards and improving the energy of homes.

Hannah Blythyn (Labour, Delyn)

Diolch. Cabinet Secretary, I’m sure you’ll be aware of SHARP, Flintshire County Council’s strategic housing and regeneration programme, the first of its kind in Wales to pioneer ambitious housing investment plans. The council’s leading by example on how to tackle housing shortages, including, for the first time in many, many years, building new council homes. In my own constituency, Flint town centre’s been transformed as part of the Flint master plan, which will see 30 new council houses and over 60 affordable properties being built. Will you, Cabinet Secretary, join me in recognising the lead Flintshire County Council has taken on this, and will you urge others to take similar steps across the country?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I thank her for the question. I am familiar with the SHARP programme. I’m very pleased to see the excellent work by Flintshire council. Councillor Bernie Attridge is leading the charge in terms of delivery in that area and I’m very grateful that local authorities are starting to build a council house programme again. That, tied in with the abolition of the right to buy, will start to generate the stock that we long remember, which is quality housing, in the public sector, for people in need, and, in particular, recognising the good work that’s going on in her constituency.

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

Well, clearly, right to buy doesn’t build new houses and the welcome but very late abolition of the housing revenue account subsidy system only enables limited borrowing. Housing regeneration isn’t just about bricks and mortar; it’s about people and communities. How, therefore, will you ensure that local authorities that retained their stock, often because tenants were scared with misinformation, can learn from—yes, you know—the good work of particularly places like Cartrefi Conwy and Cartrefi Cymunedol Gwynedd, which have hosted events that I’ve attended—tenants events—that are showing how the wider regeneration of the community is helping to support people to tackle the things holding them back and to live independent and full lives?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I’m really impressed with the housing sector and their ability to diversify, and not just build in bricks and mortar, but resilient communities. That also goes for registered social landlords and stock transfer, but also the local authorities that have kept their stock. And I don’t believe that the case the Member may be referring to was misinformation; actually it was the choice of the people. That was the important thing. They chose to keep their stock and they’re doing a very good job of that and building more council homes in the areas that are needed.

Jenny Rathbone (Labour, Cardiff Central)

I’d certainly echo that, Cabinet Secretary, and certainly in the case of Cardiff council. I just wanted to revisit the issue of empty homes, because I know that the Government’s done a great deal of work to try and get empty homes back into use. But there are still over 20,000 empty homes that could be providing homes for people who desperately need them. And as it only costs around £30,000 to bring an empty home back into use, it’s clearly a lot less than building a new one. Unfortunately, house builders are averse to restoring empty homes because there’s not as much profit in it, and instead they want to build rabbit hutches, often, instead of protecting the traditional vernacular of an area. So, I wondered what more can the Government do, along with local authorities, to ensure that every house is a wanted home.

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

Of course, the Member raises and recognises the important intervention we have had with our empty homes scheme, and we have certainly been delivering on that. I also mentioned the other week the 20,000 homes that we are seeking to build, with a mixture of tenures and tenancies. I also think empty homes will go a long way to increase the supply, in addition to the 20,000 homes, and we’ll continue to do that. I believe that they are generally of good stock that just need refurbishing, and that’s something that I’ve asked my team to give me some further advice on.

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

5. Will the Minister make a statement on ensuring that people who are deaf or hard of hearing are not discriminated against? OAQ(5)0054(CC)

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

People who are deaf or hard of hearing are protected against discrimination by the Equality Act 2010. The Act also requires that public bodies must have due regard to advancing equality of opportunity and fostering good relationships between people who are deaf or disabled and those who are not.

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

Thank you. Action on Hearing Loss have found that 84 per cent of the 575,000 people in Wales who are deaf or having hearing loss difficulties feel that this obviously makes it harder for them to access vital services. Conwy County Borough Council, of course, has the highest proportion in Wales, at 23 per cent, with 27,000 people who require such appropriate support. You may be aware that in terms of the North Wales Deaf Association, the provision funding has been cut. I have written to the authority very recently, and very politely, to request the reinstatement of this much needed funding to support this lifeline. Will you, in your role, please write also to support our quest to have that funding reinstated?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I thank the Member for her question. We are funding Action on Hearing Loss Cymru, working with Royal National Institute of Blind People Cymru, to train and support people with sensory loss to share their personal experiences with service providers in health, social services and the housing sector. An accessible and bilingual virtual sensory toolkit will be created to help organisations be more responsive to the needs of people with sensory losses—over £144,000 over three years from 2014 to 2017. I hope the Member will welcome that, and also, in her letter to the local authority, that she may mention the investment we are currently making as Welsh Government.

Mike Hedges (Labour, Swansea East)

Can I declare an interest firstly as president of Swansea hard of hearing group, and I also have a sister who is profoundly deaf? It’s very easy to discriminate in employment: you just need to make answering the phone identified as part of the job and immediately somebody who’s deaf is unable to apply. The one thing that would make a huge difference would be parity of esteem for first-language sign language with English and first-language Welsh, so that people who are deaf have the same opportunities. Will the Cabinet Secretary investigate this?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

Thank you for raising that issue with me, Mike. This Government formally recognised British Sign Language as a language in its own right in January 2004. Since then, we have supported training to increase the number of qualified interpreters in Wales and ensured that legislation, policies and programmes across this Welsh Government recognise the importance of accessible communication to everyone. He is right to raise that issue in the Chamber today.

Siân Gwenllian (Plaid Cymru, Arfon)

Contacting public bodies through traditional methods, such as call centres, can be a very difficult and frustrating experience for us all at times, but of course it can be even more difficult for people who are deaf or hard of hearing. Therefore, what is the Government doing to ensure that there are alternative ways of making contact available for people who are deaf or hard of hearing in order to ensure that they are not stopped from contacting public services?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I agree. The Member is right to raise that particular issue and it can be very difficult and that’s why we are investing in the toolkit—an accessible and bilingual virtual sensory toolkit—to help organisations be more responsive to the needs of people with sensory loss.

Mike Hedges (Labour, Swansea East)

6. Will the Minister make a statement on Flying Start? OAQ(5)0040(ERA)

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

The Flying Start programme continues to be a priority for this Government, giving children living in some of our most disadvantaged communities the best possible start in life.

Mike Hedges (Labour, Swansea East)

Can I thank the Cabinet Secretary for that response? Flying Start has made a huge improvement to life opportunities for many of my constituents. It means that children are starting school at or close to their chronological age. Whilst I believe it should be based on communities, not the vagaries of the Office for National Statistics-created super-output areas, will the Minister reiterate his support for Flying Start?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

Indeed, I will. Flying Start remains a priority in 2015-16. The programme supported over 38,000 children and their families and exceeded our target of 36,000, which we’d allocated. It is a great programme with great staff and great outcomes; long may it continue.

Llyr Gruffydd (Plaid Cymru, North Wales)

There are clearly concerns about the qualifying criteria for Flying Start and the geographical focus of that, and it was a concern levied against Communities First as well with electoral wards and potentially one side of the road being in and the other side of the road being out. I touched on this yesterday in your announcement on the proposed children’s zones. Could you confirm that the children’s zones won’t be using such a blunt approach? Could you be clear as to whether the proposed zones will be areas where people will have to live within in order to access the service, or whether services will be provided in certain zones that anyone can access?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

Well, as I said to the Member yesterday—there are two responses to the Member—firstly, Flying Start and Families First: what I’m seeking to do is to give more flexibility around those schemes financially, and therefore we can start picking up people from outside the area-based approach, people in need who require those services, and hopefully we’ll be able to roll that programme out. The other element of children’s zones is a growing programme where we’re looking to pilot different schemes. So, some will be school based, some will be community-area based and we’ll have to see which works best. I’ve started discussions already today with other organisations seeking to do similar things. So, the NSPCC, Public Health Wales and National Offending Management Service teams are all looking to create an ACE-style hub. We’re going to see how that works and who can deliver better in those areas. So, I can’t give you a definitive answer today, but actually we’re going to trial what works best.

Darren Millar (Conservative, Clwyd West)

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary, for your answer to Llyr Gruffydd. I’m very pleased to hear that you want to widen access to Flying Start. I do believe that it makes a difference and it is a shame that so many people have been excluded from accessing the support that’s available through Flying Start to date. But can you give us a timescale by which you expect to implement this decision that you appear now to have made, because I think it is important that this happens sooner rather than later?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

Well, we’ve started on the discussion about the broader principle of Communities First and, as indicated yesterday, the narrative of where we want to see the division moving, to Flying Start and Families First having flexibility, will of course be based around the budget time. I’m hopeful that, on the basis that you are confident about this programme, you will be supporting the budget in a few weeks’ time in order for me to implement this and make the changes. That is what I’m seeking.

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

7. Will the Minister outline what support the Welsh Government gives to YMCAs in Wales? OAQ(5)0050(CC)

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

Help and advice are available to YMCAs through the £4.4 million core funding I provide to third sector organisations in Wales.

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

I thank the Cabinet Secretary for that answer. The YMCA in Neath saw 27,000 visits last year, as part of a network of YMCAs across Wales, which together supply supported accommodation, training, education and fitness and well-being as well as a range of other services. Many have operated on the basis of clusters for collaboration purposes. Does he welcome that and what further support can the Welsh Government give for that principle?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I’m grateful to the Member for raising the good work that the YMCA does across the UK and, indeed, in his constituency. I’m certainly aware of the many services that are provided. Unfortunately, I’m unable to directly support all 33,000 third sector organisations in Wales, but the YMCA currently already benefits from indirect funding and support from the Welsh Government. However, I do thank the Member for raising that issue with me today, raising the profile of the YMCA, and I wish them luck in developing more services in your community and in others.

Suzy Davies (Conservative, South Wales West)

The YMCA, of course, embraces young people from all kinds of socioeconomic backgrounds and has a very good record of working with other groups. I hope that they will look at the example of Matt’s Cafe in Swansea, which works with a number of supermarkets to take unsold food to use in a community cafe. Considering that it was announced yesterday that the Abertawe Bro Morgannwg University Local Health Board threw away 230,000 meals last year and that health boards in Wales dispose of an average 3,000 meals per day, what discussions are you having with your Cabinet colleagues about limiting food wastage through supporting those community organisations such as YMCA and Matt’s Cafe? You can deal with the demand, even if your Cabinet Secretary colleague deals with the supply problem.

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I think it’s an innovative approach to managing our waste streams as well. I will talk to the Cabinet Secretary for the environment on that very issue.

John Griffiths (Labour, Newport East)

8. What are the next steps that the Welsh Government will take to improve the early years experience of children in Wales? OAQ(5)0047(CC)[R]

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I thank the Member for his question. A review and refresh of ‘Building a Brighter Future’, our early years and childcare plan, is under way to ensure our policies and programmes continue to support and improve the lives of children and their families across Wales.

John Griffiths (Labour, Newport East)

Yes, Cabinet Secretary, obviously some children are very fortunate to be born into warm, loving, supportive, secure and stable families, but too many children are not in that fortunate position. I wonder if you could say something about Welsh Government policy on early language acquisition, which I think is vital to life chances, particularly in terms of disadvantaged children. So, what will we do to support the workforce to a greater extent than is currently the case? What will we do to support parents more strongly and what will we do in funding terms? If you could say a little bit more about children zones in addition to your earlier remarks in that context, I’d be very grateful.

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

The Member raises a very important issue, and yesterday was an example of where I spelt out that there are many programmes that we need to do and wrap around the family and the young person. The adverse childhood experiences profiling, as I suggested in yesterday’s statement, is an important one, where we tackle the very issues that give instability to a family or to an individual. If we can tackle those issues, we know that the outcomes are much better, both morally and fiscally, for Government long term.

The issues around language acquisition are important ones. I’ve met with the language therapists and we’re looking at how we can build that into the system of making sure that we give young people the best start in life. I believe absolutely that if we make our investments in the early years, it will save us lots of money in the long term. My Cabinet colleagues are somewhat coming to my way of thinking too, and I’m very grateful for that.

Angela Burns (Conservative, Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire)

Cabinet Secretary, I wondered how confident you are of the monitoring system that looks at the change of ownership in nurseries because, of course, a business can easily be sold to another business or individual who may not have the appropriate skills and understanding or even the appropriate checks in place, and, even if it is a hands-off transfer, I still think we need to be reassured that there is a strong monitoring system in place to ensure that some of our youngest and most vulnerable individuals are totally protected.

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I would agree with the Member. I will write to the Member in order to give her confidence that we have a system in place to deal with the very issue that she raises.

Mohammad Asghar (Conservative, South Wales East)

9. How will the policies contained in the Welsh Government’s ‘Taking Wales Forward’ programme improve support for veterans in Wales? OAQ(5)0037(CC)

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

The policies in our programme for government reflect the ongoing dialogue with our key partners to ensure we provide effective services that meet our veterans’ needs.

Mohammad Asghar (Conservative, South Wales East)

Thank you for the reply, Minister. The programme for government makes a number of pledges to improve support services for veterans. However, there is no mention of veteran cards, which, under other proposals, would provide free bus travel and free access to leisure centres and Cadw sites. They would give priority access to NHS treatment and home adaptations, if needed, as a result of in-service injury too. Will the Cabinet Secretary reconsider introducing the veteran card in Wales please?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I’m very grateful for the Member’s question and the good intention with which it was meant. I would like to remind the Member though that options to develop a veterans identity card were considered by the task and finish group, made up of representatives of our armed forces expert group. They concluded that the value of the introduction of a veterans ID card would be limited. Following this recommendation, it was agreed to publicise and promote the existing defence privilege card as the preferred option. That is what we do.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Question 10, Andrew R.T. Davies.

Andrew RT Davies (Conservative, South Wales Central)

Thank you, Presiding Officer.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Question 11, Vikki Howells.

Vikki Howells (Labour, Cynon Valley)

11. What are the Minister’s priorities for promoting regeneration within the Cynon Valley? OAQ(5)0044(CC)

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I thank the Member for her question. We are supporting a range of regeneration programmes across the Valleys. This includes funding for the Aberdare town centre partnership to promote the town centre and support activities that increase vibrancy and viability.

Vikki Howells (Labour, Cynon Valley)

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. The town centre partnership fund has brought lots of benefits, including to Aberdare in my constituency. When I speak to people in many other town and village centres, they feel that they too could also benefit from support. Would Welsh Government have any plans for looking at what lessons can be drawn from the partnership fund, to develop targeted support so that towns and villages such as Hirwaun, Mountain Ash, Penrhiwceiber and Abercynon in my constituency can also benefit and thrive?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I’m grateful for the Member’s question. We’re never short of regeneration programmes that people wish to be developed for their communities, and I’m grateful for the recognition of the work that’s going on in her community directly. We will be looking to evaluate and learn lessons from this programme, and the findings will be considered for future policies and will be shared with our stakeholders. I’m pleased to hear of the improvements being made in Aberdare and welcome her comments today.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

12. Will the Minister identify the Welsh Government’s priorities in the Fifth Assembly for supporting the voluntary sector across Wales? OAQ(5)0051(CC)

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I appreciate the vital, important work the third sector is doing in our communities. Our priorities are ensuring we have a thriving third sector with a strong infrastructure to support their work, growing the volunteer base and ensuring the third sector has a voice in helping and shaping communities.