Senedd Cymru (Welsh Parliament), 9 November 2016

308 contributions from 44 members. The official report.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

I call the National Assembly to order.

1. 1. Questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Economy and Infrastructure

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The first item on our agenda this afternoon is questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Economy and Infrastructure, and the first question, Hefin David.

Hefin David (Labour, Caerphilly)

1. Will the Minister make a statement on the future of the Wales and Borders rail franchise? OAQ(5)0069(EI)

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Yes. The Wales and borders franchise is due to end in October 2018, and we have started the process of procuring an operator and development partner, who will also operate services and develop the south Wales metro.

Hefin David (Labour, Caerphilly)

I’d like to thank the Cabinet Secretary for that, and note, with thanks, the statement that was made this morning on rolling stock. Within the statement, the Cabinet Secretary said that, on core Valleys lines, passenger operations—which includes from my constituency—making use of diesel-only traction will be phased out, and conventional electrification, stored-energy systems, and hybrid systems would be considered. I have met with Arriva Trains Wales, and they said that, in the short term, though, that’s not going to be possible—there is a shortage of rolling stock and a shortage of carriages, so people are standing up. Now, given the damning report that listed failures of the UK Government’s electrification of the line, that isn’t allowing diesel rolling stock to be transferred temporarily to Valleys lines. I’d like to know whether the Cabinet Secretary has a plan for that, and could he also elaborate perhaps on whether the Wales and borders franchise will include new rolling stock as part of the franchise?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Well, there are a number of important points that the Member has raised, and, of course, some of the problems that have recently been highlighted could be avoided if we could have responsibility, powers, and a fair settlement devolved to Wales, so that we can ensure that the needs of passengers are met in the full. Now, it’s up to Arriva Trains Wales to appropriately manage capacity on the current franchise terms, but we have also provided additional rolling stock to Arriva Trains Wales to assist in overcrowding on many lines, including those that the Member has identified. Whilst there is a very limited diesel rolling stock currently available, we are in dialogue with the rail industry at the moment, to try to identify solutions that could deliver additional capacity in the short term.

Now, the majority of routes and services within the Wales and borders franchise, including the Valleys lines, are dependent upon the £180 million Welsh Government support every year, in terms of franchise subsidy payments and funding for additional services and rolling stock. Arriva Trains Wales lease the vast majority of rolling stock used on Wales and borders services from two privately owned rolling stock leasing companies. And I understand that four of the pacer trains used predominantly on the Valleys lines are owned by local authorities in south Wales.

Now, the Member will know from the statement that’s been issued today by me that, with the new competitive dialogue taking place with the four bidders for the next round of the franchise, fresh criteria will be put in place that enables growth in terms of passenger numbers to be met, by an increase in the amount of rolling stock that’s available, and not just in terms of quality, but also vast improvements in terms of the quality of rolling stock.

David Lloyd (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

Cabinet Secretary, you’ll be aware, obviously, that the Welsh Government’s stated ambition is to deliver a new not-for-profit rail model, but the current bidders, as you’ve outlined, to become the Wales and borders operator and development partner won’t themselves be not-for-profit companies. So, clearly, there’s a potential for some misunderstanding. Now, I want to see a proper model, which sees profits reinvested in the services and infrastructure, and a truly not-for-profit model, and others, such as the RMT union, have similar ambitions. Will you confirm today that you share that general principle, and will you provide details on what you are doing to move towards that goal?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Yes, of course. The Member will be aware that there are restrictions in place, through legislation from Parliament, that prevents only not-for-profit operators from bidding for the franchise. But we have designed the procurement system as such that it does not disadvantage any not-for-profit bidders, should they wish to come forward—none have, but what we have done is design a solution that fits with our limited powers. We are seeking changes to those powers, to enable, potentially, Transport for Wales, for example, and another not-for-profit operator in the future, to run the services that could be part of a future franchise. But, for the time being, we have designed a model—we’ve been as innovative as we possibly can—to ensure that as much of the franchise through concessions in the next round can be operated on a not-for-profit basis. The process of competitive dialogue will also place, right at the forefront of deliberation, service quality for passengers, rather than profit motive, and I would share the aspirations that the member has outlined today—for all money to be retained within Wales and to be reinvested in the network. It’s what passengers expect from their public services.

Hefin David (Labour, Caerphilly)

2. Will the Minister make a statement on the green economy in Wales? OAQ(5)0070(EI)

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Yes, the green economy underpins our programme for government commitment to introduce new legislation for the environment. Our aim is to position Wales as a low-carbon, green economy, to support projects that help reduce the impact of climate change.

Hefin David (Labour, Caerphilly)

Diolch. Greening our economy is an important part of our efforts to tackle climate change here in Wales, and, last month, I attended a public meeting sponsored by Stop Climate Change Chaos. I took their pledge to speak up on climate change and use my role as an Assembly Member to drive action on climate change. I note with interest the different approaches taken by different UKIP AMs on this issue—on one hand we have Caroline Jones joining me in taking that pledge to speak up on action for climate change and making sure it’s addressed, and well done. On the other hand, though, we had David Rowlands last week and the remarkable ode to climate change denial that took place in this Chamber. Would you agree that that UKIP approach will not be taken up by the Welsh Government, as those short-term solutions cannot be taken seriously on this important issue?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

I’d like to thank the Member for his question. Whilst other parties might be inconsistent in their approach to climate change, we will remain absolutely resolute in our determination to meet our international obligations and, indeed, to grow the green economy, which is of enormous value to communities right across Wales. In terms of green energy, we know that many jobs in some of our most rural parts of Wales—particularly in the north-west and in the west—heavily rely on that sector, and we will do all that we can to grow that economic priority sector.

Andrew RT Davies (Conservative, South Wales Central)

Minister, I have asked successive Cabinet Secretaries and Ministers in this institution to actually start delivering on some of the rhetoric that they’ve talked about, especially on microgeneration in the green energy sector, and, to do that, we need a grid that can allow people to connect to it. There are many, many people who would wish to generate—or play a part in generating—green energy projects, especially farmers and landowners, but they just cannot get a grid connection. And unless Western Power Distribution and the other grid providers provide those facilities, then you are not going to be able to deliver on this part of the economy. So, what discussions are you having to develop a coherent strategy to upgrade the grid here in Wales, so that, ultimately, small and medium-sized green energy projects can, if they wish, connect to the grid and play their part in the green economy?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Well, of course, in terms of these responsibilities, it falls into the hands of the Cabinet Secretary for environment and natural resources. We work closely in terms of identifying the barriers for green growth, including green growth in the energy sector. Perhaps the biggest opportunity that we have—and the Member highlights the potential of this sector—perhaps the greatest opportunity could come with the autumn statement, if good news is presented later this month in regard to the tidal lagoon in Swansea bay.

Simon Thomas (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

Cabinet Secretary, why not embrace the excellent opportunities that exist in responding to the challenge of climate change—these positive economic opportunities? What is the Government doing to promote hydrogen fuel cell technologies in the economy at the moment? I understand that fuel cells were originally devised in Wales, as it happens, but, by now, those hydrogen fuel cells are a way particularly of powering vehicles and even trains that can run on the new metro that is being proposed for south Wales. The technology is in place and the capability is there, so now what is required is funding and support in order to make the technology something practical that people can use in their daily lives. This is a way of turning renewable energy into something that can be used across Wales.

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Well, the Member is absolutely right, and I’m pleased that we’ve been able to give support both in terms of advice and guidance, but also financial resource to Riversimple—a company that the Member may be aware of—which is at the forefront of research, development and innovation insofar as hydrogen cell engines are concerned. This is a growing area of interest for innovators and particularly universities right across the world. The Member is also right to say that we should be embracing the economic opportunities that the growth in the green economy present, and the Ellen MacArthur Foundation and Waste and Resources Action Programme study found that achieving a greener economy in Wales could provide economic benefits of more than £2 billion a year. This immense contribution to the economy would also produce jobs with a higher gross value added, and also drive research and development in the Welsh economy, which is what we so necessarily need right now. And in terms of a WRAP and Green Alliance study, there’s a prediction that up to 30,000 new jobs can be created in Wales through the development of, again, a more circular green economy. So, it’s absolutely vital that we continue to invest, through our green funds, and continue to provide advice and guidance to businesses within the green sector to grow and to prosper.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Questions from party spokespeople now and, first this week, Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Adam Price.

Adam Price (Plaid Cymru, Carmarthen East and Dinefwr)

Diolch, Lywydd. I think, Cabinet Secretary, we’ve seen again overnight, haven’t we, the way in which political consequences flow from an economic agenda that has failed to deliver change for the majority of people. So, would he agree that now is the time really for bold, big ideas that have the potential to deliver transformational change for our country and our people? In this spirit, I note that Greater Manchester has announced it is bidding to for the World Expo, the Olympics for business, if you like, which hasn’t been to mainland Britain since the first one, the Great Exhibition of 1851. They’re competing, in the case of the 2025 expo against Paris and Osaka, and it’s by no means certain that they’ll succeed. So, could we explore the possibility of Wales bidding for the next available slot, which will be in 2027-28? What more exciting, compelling idea than bringing the expo home to the birthplace of the industrial revolution here in Wales?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Can I thank the Member for his question, and say that he is right—events overnight have certainly led to us needing to focus more attention on economic growth being relevant to all people in all communities? And this follows considerations, which I know the Member has had, since the referendum as well. And in part of the development of the new economic strategy, I think it’s essential that we do refocus our attention on areas of high unemployment and where there are opportunities, not just to access jobs and to access wealth, to also experience opportunities create more wealth within their own boundaries. That economic strategy will be presented in the new year to the First Minister, but I think the Member is also right that we do need to offer big, bold ideas, such as the Newport convention centre, which is a facility—the first time that we will experience a facility of its type in Wales—that could offer opportunities for hosting major events such as the expo, such as the World Travel Market, which I was at this week in London, such as the sports personality of the year awards. And not just cultural events, but business events and sporting events as well.

Adam Price (Plaid Cymru, Carmarthen East and Dinefwr)

On this theme of big ideas, the Bevan Foundation yesterday launched a powerful report that made the case for designating the whole of the south Wales Valleys as an enterprise zone. Is there an opportunity to go even further here and actually seek permission from the UK Government for the whole of Wales to be made an enterprise zone, and for us to have the corporation tax powers that are being offered to Northern Ireland, for us to have research and development tax break powers, and the powers to have holidays for national insurance employer contributions, particularly in those areas like the south Wales Valleys, where there are particular economic challenges, giving thus to Wales the kind of competitive advantage that we need if we’re to close this historic economic gap that we’ve faced for generations?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Yes. I read the report from the Joseph Rowntree Foundation with great interest, and whilst I think the idea of an enterprise zone for the whole of the Valleys has merit, I do not think that that would offer a silver bullet solution to Valleys communities. And I think more needs to be done over and above such a suggestion to actually address some of the structural problems that continue to affect not just Valleys communities, but many parts of Wales that experienced a decline after the loss of significant jobs in the 1980s that were associated with manufacturing, with the mines, with the steel industry for example. We’ve got a good story to tell thus far, in terms of our economic performance. We supported and created 140,000 jobs in the last Assembly term. We also ensured that we avoided the sort of blight on communities that was experienced in other former industrial areas of the UK, insofar as youth unemployment was concerned. Here we created 15,000 jobs for young unemployed people. As we move forward, I want to place the focus more on the quality of jobs that we create and also have a more sensitive economic strategy to recognise some of the problems that exist—some of the more idiosyncratic problems and unique problems that exist in many communities that have not benefitted equally from the economic growth that we have experienced as a nation. This is a big challenge and that’s why I’m consulting as widely as possible on what the new economic strategy should contain. I’d welcome the Members’ views on the economic strategy and I’d also welcome input from all parties and stakeholders.

As I say, that will be produced in the new year and will be presented to the First Minister. But it will be building on what is a proud, good record for Wales in recent years, but it will aim to address, as I say, some of the more structural problems. Meanwhile, the work of the Valleys taskforce continues. I know that the idea of designating the whole of Wales an enterprise zone was touted, first, I think, by Matthew Parris. I think we need to consider all levers at our disposal and all opportunities that the Wales Bill, and whatever devolved powers in the future, could present to us.

Adam Price (Plaid Cymru, Carmarthen East and Dinefwr)

Finally, can I urge the Cabinet Secretary to look, not just at the economic gap between Wales and the rest of the UK—indeed, the rest of Europe—but also the economic gap within Wales, absolutely, particularly at a time when many people in the Valleys and rural Wales feel as distant from the centres of power and wealth as the people of the midwest or the rust belt feel from Washington DC? So, will you consider the case for creating powerful new regional development corporations, focusing, particularly, on the needs of those areas of Wales, in the Valleys and rural Wales? It worked here in Cardiff bay, did it not, in microcosm? Should we not extend that same leverage to those areas in Wales that need it so badly? Would he also consider the case for creating regional capitals within Wales, which could be centres of public administration and business services, and, indeed, even the idea that you see in many commonwealth provinces, the idea of a vice capital—we might need to look a little bit at the branding—[Laughter.]—where even this Parliament could actually sit for some of its time as a symbol of our commitment to spreading wealth and power to every part of Wales?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

As I say, it’s about making sure that there is relevance to what we do in all parts of Wales. As I’ve spoken on numerous occasions now about the area that I personally represent in Wales, I think sometimes the north-east feels distant from this institution and somewhat removed from the process of devolution. I would agree as well about regional economies and the importance that urban areas have in giving them identity and attracting investment and generating economic wealth as well. It’s important that, within any regional economy, there are centres, towns, that can be identified as capitals of those regions. Insofar as Wales is concerned, we are reaching that point with Cardiff, with Swansea and with Newport. I think it’s central that we identify local authorities and towns elsewhere in Wales that are willing and determined to take on the challenge of becoming regional capitals. I think that’s absolutely central.

I’ve spoken on numerous occasions as well about the fact that, I hope, through the new economic strategy, we can look at using more place-based interventions. In the work that I’m carrying out, under the chairmanship of Alun Davies on the Valleys taskforce, we’ve been open-minded about the interventions that are required within the Valleys. As I said earlier to a previous question, I think we can’t afford to look at an all-Wales strategy, without also looking at some of the nuances of the regions. Therefore, we need to ensure that we don’t approach every region with a one-model-fits-all approach. That’s why I think it’s important that, within the context of the work that’s taking place at the moment on the economic strategy, we also look at the regional economies and what it is that each of the regions require, because it may well be that what’s required in North Wales is different to what’s required in Mid and West Wales and within the city regions of south Wales.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The Welsh Conservatives’ spokesperson, Russell George.

Russell George (Conservative, Montgomeryshire)

Diolch, Lywydd. Cabinet Secretary, I would be grateful if you could outline the benefits and the costs associated with the decision to locate the headquarters of the Welsh development bank in the north-east of Wales and also to outline what discussions you’ve had on this with Finance Wales.

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Well, my latest discussions took place yesterday. The Member will be aware from my committee appearance last week—and this actually relates to the questions and the points that Adam Price has just made—that I do have concerns about ensuring that national institutions such as the National Assembly for Wales and Welsh Government have a presence right across Wales, and that no part of Wales feels excluded. And, in carrying out a mapping exercise, it was found that there are part of Wales where there is less presence, and I think it’s essential that we do what we can to make Government and to make this national institution relevant to all people equally. And for that reason, I think it makes sense that we do decentralise whenever and wherever possible. For the same reason, I’ve said that, with Transport for Wales, my intention for that body is that that will be headquartered in the Valleys as well.

We need to learn from yesterday’s result in the United States and from the referendum that many people in many communities feel that national institutions, national polities, are too far removed from their communities. It’s essential, therefore, that what we do becomes more relevant, more apparent and more accessible to them.

Russell George (Conservative, Montgomeryshire)

Well, Cabinet Secretary, you won’t have any disagreement from me. I firmly believe that we should be moving out of this place and across to all areas of Wales. Finance Wales was telling the Economy, Infrastructure and Skills Committee this morning that it’s becoming more and more difficult to retain and recruit staff. Now, there is a concern that, as a result of a proposed relocation to north-east Wales, those skills could be lost. There may be some staff from within Finance Wales who do not want to make the move, so clearly there is a potential issue of staff retention in this regard, and I wonder what assessment you’ve made.

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

If you look at north-east Wales, you’ll see that many, many people—hundreds of people in north-east Wales—travel across the border into England every day to work in major financial centres. They travel across the border to work at the Bank of America in Chester, they travel across the border to work at Marks & Spencer Financial Services, and to the banks and financial centres in Manchester. I don’t think that skills issues should be used as an excuse to stop the development of economic growth across Wales. If we know that there are skills available in parts of Wales, then they can be utilised for growth within those areas. But in terms of Finance Wales and the development of the development bank for Wales, I am conscious of the need to retain staff, and for that reason I had discussions just yesterday with Giles Thorley about ensuring that the presence in Cardiff for the development bank for Wales is retained, but that there are opportunities also, in the form of a headquarters in north Wales, to make that institution more accessible and more relevant to all parts of the country.

Russell George (Conservative, Montgomeryshire)

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. I think there’s probably another question there about what is it that ‘a headquarters’ means. Is it a wholesale move of staff to another part of Wales, or is it just a title as well? So, perhaps you could address that point. But the final point I’d like to make is: in the annual report for 2015-16, Finance Wales confirms that the remuneration of its highest-paid director was £404,000, compared to £216,000 in the previous year. That is a very high figure, and when we asked them about that, they attributed it to the extra pension costs contributed to the pension scheme. I understand that 30 per cent of Finance Wales staff are on the same pension scheme as well. So if, of course, staff do leave the organisation, there is the potential for a huge increase in costs there, so I’d be grateful if you could address that point and also have you addressed that point within the business case?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

These are being examined as part of the options, and there are options on the table for the development of the bank and where it should be located. Insofar as what ‘a headquarters’ means, well there are two options: one, the wholesale transfer of staff and functions away from the capital to the new headquarters; or two, the second option would be to have a headquarters and, over a period of time, to grow that headquarters without necessarily losing staff at the current offices. So, we’re going to be considering both options, both the financial implications, but also the implications in terms of the retention of expertise and skills. But I need to be clear again that I wish to see decentralisation wherever and whenever possible, and I will look for opportunities to deliver services in different communities across Wales, so that Welsh Government and, I hope, the National Assembly for Wales and all of us become more relevant to people’s lives.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

UKIP spokesperson, David Rowlands.

David Rowlands (UKIP, South Wales East)

Diolch, Lywydd. I’m going to bring matters back now to the regional level that we talked about a little earlier on. I believe the Cabinet Secretary is aware of a group called MAGOR—Magor Action Group on Rail—which is campaigning for a station in Magor in Gwent. They have been engaged in this project for a number of years and have been successful in obtaining funding from several organisations. I understand that they are now seeking a Welsh Government grant to match-fund the project to a governance for railway investment project 3 study stage, which I believe is a sum of something like £80,000. They hope to complete this stage over the next few months. Is the Cabinet Secretary in a position to indicate whether he is willing to provide this funding?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Well, I can’t do that on this occasion, because we’re still assessing the merits of the application. I think what the group has done so far has great merit. I think the work that they’ve carried out has been incredibly valuable in terms of informing Welsh Government what it is that the communities need in order to create a more connected environment. And so we will give very sympathetic consideration to that application, but I can’t today say whether it will or will not be approved.

David Rowlands (UKIP, South Wales East)

Thank you for that answer, Cabinet Secretary. If you’re still thinking of funding, can I be as impertinent as to ask if he may consider totally funding the GRIP 3 application, which is probably in the region of £160,000? I raise this possibility, Cabinet Secretary, because it can be noted that this station has actually been indicated on the South Wales East metro plan several times, and it has a very real chance of being the first manifestation of the metro project in the South Wales East region.

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

For the same reason that I’ve already given, I couldn’t give any guarantees about whether I’d be able to fund the full £160,000. I’m sure the Member is sympathetic to the reason why. I can’t do that because the application has not been thoroughly scrutinised yet. But in terms of stations, well, the metro project does have flexibility built into it so that there can be extensions and there can be amendments to the service provision if, for example, new social infrastructure is incorporated into the South East Wales regional area and then the metro map can be amended accordingly. So, I’m sympathetic to the cause. I will look thoroughly at the application, but I’m not in a position to give the go-ahead today.

David Rowlands (UKIP, South Wales East)

Thank you for that answer, Cabinet Secretary, but I would have liked to have been able to take back a little bit more of a positive message to these people. Are you in any way able to give me some sort of indication as to the possibility of this happening, or not?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

I would very happily meet with the Member and the group that he talks of, because I think they have made a very strong case, as has the Member, for support from Welsh Government. I would happily discuss their aspirations and the application with them.

Neil Hamilton (UKIP, Mid and West Wales)

3. What discussions has the Minister had on the proposed reopening of the railway line between Aberystwyth and Carmarthen? OAQ(5)0064(EI)

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

In 2015, we published an initial scoping report into reopening this line. Subsequently, we funded a further appraisal of the regional transport needs, which is currently being finalised. I am pleased that we have included further development funding in the draft budget.

Neil Hamilton (UKIP, Mid and West Wales)

I’m grateful for that reply. Picking up on a point well made by Adam Price earlier on that communities in Mid and West Wales’s need to feel more integrated with the prosperous areas of south-east Wales, does the Cabinet Secretary agree that the rebuilding of this railway line could make a contribution to that? The line was closed at a time when there was enormous pessimism about the future of rail travel in Britain in the 1960s and a great many of the Beeching-related decisions that were taken then would not have been taken if people had been able to foresee the way that the rail industry has developed in recent years. As it takes six hours to get from Aberystwyth to Cardiff by train via Shrewsbury, this would cut the journey time in half. And fortunately, there has been a big increase in the demand for rail travel: in recent years, the usage of Aberystwyth station has increased by 40 per cent in the last eight years, for example. This would give us a real prospect of reconnecting parts of Wales that perhaps feel that they’re far too distant from the areas where too much investment seems to be taking place in the minds of ordinary people, picking up again on the point that you made at the beginning of today’s proceedings about how the results of the election in America yesterday and Brexit actually derived to a great extent from feelings of exclusion and that we need to do more to connect people.

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Being connected is one of the fundamental needs of every human if they’re going live in an environment that has minimal distress and anxiety, and I think it’s essential that, within the programme for government, we place just as much of an emphasis on the united and connected element of Government strategy as we do on the other three important strategies. I think that this project would be an appropriate proposal for the national infrastructure commission for Wales to take a look at once it’s up and running, and I intend asking the commission to do just that. However, in the meantime, we are commissioning a feasibility study, as I say, to build on the existing evidence, and I can outline what that study will incorporate. There will be an assessment of the track. We know that more than 90 per cent of the track remains unaffected; we’ll carry out a review of the track. We’ll look at structures and stations and tunnelling. We’ll look at telecoms and a number of other issues. I think the initial estimate of reinstating the line was something in the region of £750 million as a total project. It is expensive. In terms of deliverability, it could be done because, as I say, the vast majority of the track has already been retained. But it will be a costly project to undertake, which is why I think it has to have expert, independent advice provided to Government in the form of expert advice from the national infrastructure commission.

Simon Thomas (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

I’m pleased to tell the Minister that it doesn’t take six hours to travel from Aberystwyth to Cardiff. I do it on a weekly basis and it takes four hours. But, four hours is more than enough to be on the train because most of the journey is through England. It would be nice to travel from Cardiff to Aberystwyth through Wales, rather than through England. But the main blessing of this scheme, as well as linking Aberystwyth and Cardiff, is to link Carmarthen and Aberystwyth—two sub-capitals, as Adam Price said, for west Wales.

It’s extremely important that we see economic growth in west Wales for our young people, for the Welsh language, and for heritage, culture and tourism as well, and that’s what this proposal provides us with: an opportunity to achieve that dream of linking west Wales. Then you wouldn’t need a development zone: the railway would do that for you. But, on a practical basis, I’m pleased to hear that this scheme is to be funded because of the agreement between Plaid Cymru and the Government, and I’m pleased to hear this idea that NICW, the infrastructure programme, is also looking at this. But, in practical terms, we need Network Rail now to look at this scheme in earnest. When I discussed this with Network Rail about a year ago, they were very clear that they would look at a proposal such as this one if the Government was behind it and if there was a feasibility study in place, because then they could programme that for capital development ultimately. Network Rail aren’t doing particularly well on capital programmes at the moment in Wales, but that’s another issue. But, this now needs to be part of their planning. Would you meet with Network Rail urgently to discuss this?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Yes. In fact, I believe my next meeting with Network Rail is coming up in the next six weeks, so that’ll be an issue that I’ll be discussing with them, along with the need to invest more in tree clearance. A lack of investment in tree clearance is leading to too many leaves on the lines, which is leading to a lack of reliability in the network. So, I’ll be raising a number of points with them. I’ve already raised the fact on numerous occasions that I think it’s unacceptable that we in Wales have benefited to the tune of just 1 per cent of overall spend by Network Rail since 2011. I think time is overdue for a windfall from Network Rail right across Wales. I understand that the line was originally closed—. It was a victim of the Beeching cuts when it was closed in 1965, and I know subsequent closures of lines, I think, in 1970 and 1973. I think Members are right, around the Chamber, to say that, had there been the foresight then to secure services, then we’d be in a far better position today to have a more connected Wales. Nonetheless, we now have a duty as Welsh Government to ensure that communities are well connected and that forms of transportation are also integrated where and whenever possible. I think the roll-out of the TrawsCymru bus network has proven that there is incredible demand for people to travel where railway lines are not available across the country and from the north to the south. I’m pleased to be extending the number of services that are available from the TrawsCymru service in the new financial year.

Angela Burns (Conservative, Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire)

Cabinet Secretary, you are absolutely right, united and connected is totally vital, and I’m very supportive of this. However, we also need to be fiscally responsible. You’ve already talked about the £750 million that it could cost to reopen this line. From a written question by my colleague Andrew Davies, we know that there’s been at least one scoping study of £30,000. There is a bus service that is currently being subsidised by the Welsh Government. All of the sums add up together to make a very big sum of money here, so could you please tell us how much more money is going to have to be spent before we establish the feasibility of this project going ahead?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

The money is allocated within the next financial year’s budget—or in the draft budget—and, subsequent to that work being carried out, I’d expect the project to be able to be examined thoroughly by NICW and, following their assessment of the project, Government would then receive a set of recommendations. We would then, if NICW or the experts were minded to recommend the project go ahead, incorporate it into a future national transport finance plan. But I do take on board what the Member says about ensuring that all of what we do in terms of transport and all other services that we provide are fully affordable.

Suzy Davies (Conservative, South Wales West)

4. Will the Minister make a statement on the tourism investment support scheme? OAQ(5)0057(EI)

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Yes. The tourism investment support scheme is a fund that Members are aware supports the tourism industry. From 2013, the value of offers totals £5.5 million, together with an additional £11.3 million for strategic tourism projects, such as the Royal Mint Experience and Surf Snowdonia. In total, the fund has helped to create 1,087 jobs and includes a further £40 million of investments being levered in.

Suzy Davies (Conservative, South Wales West)

Thank you very much for that update, Cabinet Secretary—I should’ve said that earlier. But, in 2012 the Government did give the Ruthin Castle Hotel £0.5 million, more than three times higher than any other TISS grant in that year, and just £5,000 of this has been recovered for the Welsh taxpayer after the company failed to meet the TISS criteria. I appreciate in this specific example that there were difficulties recovering moneys because the company’s gone into administration. But, that in itself raises questions about the safeguards on which the Welsh Government insists when giving the TISS grant. The lost money, that’s something other businesses could have used. So, will you be recalibrating the rules for TISS grants in order to have a wider geographic spread for job creation, or are you looking for different ways of reducing the risk to the Welsh taxpayer?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

I can confirm the latter. In fact, I’ll write to Members with an update on the tourism investment support scheme, because the criteria for support were changed. I think I’ve highlighted this in a previous session here in Plenary, or in a committee, but the criteria changed so that there was a minimum of 30 per cent repayment allocated within the award process.

In terms of Ruthin Castle Hotel, I think, first of all, it’s essential that Members do not talk down that particular hotel, because it is still open, it’s operating very successfully and it provides employment opportunities for many people. I would not wish Members in this Chamber to convey the impression that Ruthin Castle Hotel has closed or that it is in trouble. Indeed, my officials met with the new owners back in April of this year to discuss the expansion plans that the hotel has. The hotel has also undergone change insofar as separating some of the assets that have a greater liability are concerned, so there is now a trust that’s been established to look after parts of the historic environment that the castle includes. In terms of that specific case, I’m happy to write to Members with a full account of what happened and the reason why the project encountered problems. In terms of that project, yes, only approximately £5,000 was recovered, but the hotel is still operating. It is still employing people and it is retaining four-star standard.

I’ll happily update Members in terms of the changes to TISS, and I’ll also provide a more detailed account of what happened with Ruthin Castle Hotel and the due diligence that it was subject to. I can confirm that, as part of the TISS programme for 2017, there will be two major attractions that will be delivered: one in the north that will be an alpine coaster, and one in the south, in Pembrokeshire, which will be a wakeboard park, which will be a key feature of 2018’s Year of the Sea.

Dawn Bowden (Labour, Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney)

Cabinet Secretary, from previous contributions I’ve made on this subject you’ll know of my personal interest in raising awareness of the industrial and social heritage of Merthyr Tydfil, in particular, and I’ve been working with the council, discussing options for developing these into significant tourism opportunities. Indeed, last week I was pleased to address Merthyr’s heritage and regeneration conference, when I focused specifically on what Merthyr has to offer in that regard. Apart from questioning whether we always do everything we can to preserve or to renovate sites and buildings that have a significant story to tell in respect of our local heritage, I spoke specifically about how we could learn from places like Ironbridge in delivering a whole-town experience. I also suggested to them the possibility of developing the Dic Penderyn trail, which I know I’ve spoken to you about, which would tell the story of the people of Merthyr around the time of the rising. That seemed to be welcomed by the council and by a number of the heritage volunteers in the town. The reason I raise this is that Merthyr Tydfil County Borough Council and the heritage organisations have considerable ambition for the town—there’s no doubt about that—but, of course, the barrier to developing many projects is generally a financial one. Now, I realise that TISS—

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

You do need to come to a question now, please.

Dawn Bowden (Labour, Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney)

Yes, I’m coming to the question. I realise that TISS is a scheme based on the funder of last resort and, you know, after all others have been exhausted, and I know that it’s only limited to £0.5 million and it mostly covers projects around accommodation, activity and restaurants and so on—

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

A question, please.

Dawn Bowden (Labour, Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney)

The question is: can the Cabinet Secretary advise me whether there is flexibility within the rules governing the scheme that would allow access to funding that could assist with some minor heritage projects that couldn’t attract any other funding, but which, if developed, could help to draw people into the town?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

I’d like to thank Dawn Bowden for her question. A number of Members have, in recent weeks, raised with me questions about whether the Government could support certain projects and certain installations in their constituencies and regions. I know Neil McEvoy has recently raised the same question. What I’ll undertake to do is to write to Members with details of TISS—the criteria—but also, if I may, I’ll include details of destination managers within the respective parts of regions of Wales, and the contact details, because I think it would be valuable for Members to be able to liaise with them or, at least, to be able to refer groups to the destination managers because they then have details about two other important funding programmes—the regional tourism innovation fund, which may be relevant to the point that Dawn Bowden raises, and also the regional tourism engagement fund. In addition, there are funding opportunities that are provided through the Heritage Lottery Fund. Presiding Officer, if I may, I’ll try to capture all of this detail in a letter and circulate it to Members so that everybody is equipped with the relevant detail to be able to advise on any projects that constituents bring forward.

Angela Burns (Conservative, Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire)

5. Will the Minister provide an update on the Welsh Government’s business grant application process? OAQ(5)0067(EI)

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Yes. Businesses looking to access grant support will need to complete the appropriate application and provide any necessary supporting documentation. This will usually be a business plan and relevant financial information.

Angela Burns (Conservative, Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire)

Thank you for that answer. Cabinet Secretary, we’ve had a number of high-profile collapses of businesses involving an awful lot of public money, and it’s not just here on your watch or indeed your predecessor’s—she was the one who made a lot of these decisions—but it goes right back to the days of Ieuan Wyn Jones and £2 million for ragworm farms, which we got not one penny back for. I absolutely appreciate that we have to gamble in order to help build the economy, but can you please assure us that you’re going to rigorously implement a process for vetting and doing due diligence on business applications? If you look at what a farmer has to fill in for a small grant, it is, in many cases, far, far, far more information than a business that just seems to need to put in a plan and an outline structure. I do think that, for the sake of public money, and to ensure that the money is in the right place for the right companies, and that they are truly supported, so that we don’t have this cycle of up and down, we need to be more diligent in how we do this.

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Well, it is essential that due diligence is taken fully into account as part of the process of determining whether a business should get Welsh Government or taxpayer support, and processes are rigorous. I am looking at ways that we can strengthen that process. I think it’s also important to recognise, though, that in terms of the support we have offered, only 4.9 per cent of the 1,110 companies that received offers of financial assistance from the Welsh Government over the last five years have actually gone into recovery. So, the proportion is actually very small. But, of course, whenever a company does fail, it does make a lot of news. I am, as I say, undertaking work to look at how due diligence can be strengthened, and I will update Members accordingly. In terms of enterprise death rates, again, we have got a good story to tell in Wales. The average proportion of businesses that close is 9.2 per cent, compared to 9.6 per cent in 2014. Of course, during the last few years, we have seen unemployment in Wales reach a record low, and employment in Wales reach a record high. Some businesses will fail for various reasons. We deal, as I say, with hundreds of businesses each year. The economic reality is that some will fail and some will succeed, and not all business proposals go according to plan. What is essential, as the Member has highlighted, is that we carry out all checks thoroughly and rigorously on the businesses and the people leading them, so that we can guarantee that the taxpayer is getting full value for money and that their investment is as risk free as possible.

Neil McEvoy (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

A lot has been said about questionable grant support through the Welsh Government—the land sales, such as Lisvane, where the public purse lost £39 million. Do you agree that investment in serious fraud prevention in the Assembly through the channels that exist will probably yield a profit for the taxpayer?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Well, it’s for the Wales Audit Office to assess any cases that Members may have concerns about. The examples that the Member has raised are contentious issues, and we would have wished no losses to be incurred by the taxpayer. But the Wales Audit Office carries out a thorough inquiry of projects that it deems to be in the public interest, and I would expect their work to continue. I would very much welcome their work in regard to any project or any decision that is taken on my watch.

Jayne Bryant (Labour, Newport West)

6. Will the Minister provide an update on the provision of a regular train service between Ebbw Vale and Newport? OAQ(5)0071(EI)

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Yes. We are currently procuring an operator and delivery partner as part of the Wales and borders services from 2018 and, of course, the metro. This process will also include discussions with bidders on how services from Ebbw Vale to Newport can best be delivered as part of the wider provision of the south-east Wales metro.

Jayne Bryant (Labour, Newport West)

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. The provision of a regular service between Ebbw Vale and Newport would be a key part of linking Newport with the Gwent valleys. Over the last 10 years, there have been campaigns supported by local AMs and the ‘South Wales Argus’ to ensure that this line would stop in Newport. It would be a crucial boost to the local economy and the public transport network, both in Newport and the Valleys communities on the route. Along with my constituents and my colleague John Griffiths, Assembly Member, I would be keen to see this happen as quickly as possible. Can the Cabinet Secretary confirm that a regular Newport-to-Ebbw Vale service remains a priority for the south Wales metro and the new rail franchise?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Yes. We are investing to allow for more frequent and faster services on the line, and we are also adding new platforms at a number of stations. We have funded Network Rail to deliver the project, and they have laid most of the new track that is necessary in the next stages for work to begin on the stations themselves. Network Rail’s work on the signalling system will start immediately afterwards.

Mohammad Asghar (Conservative, South Wales East)

Cabinet Secretary, I have been asking about a link to Newport since 2007-08, when it actually started. Network Rail has undertaken a number of works to deliver more frequent services for passengers on the Ebbw Vale line. These include the construction of new platforms and the re-signalling of the line. Could the Cabinet Secretary provide an update on these improvements, and when can we expect to see more frequent services to and from Ebbw Vale and Newport? Thank you.

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Well, metro phase 1 is already under way, with a series of improvements to stations and to railway infrastructure. I’m conscious that the Member has been vocal about this matter since 2007, but I am delighted that this is being taken forward at pace now, and I look forward to the Member congratulating the Welsh Government on its delivery of this important project.

Mark Reckless (UKIP, South Wales East)

7. Will the Minister make a statement on the likely improvement in journey times between Newport and other destinations between south Wales and London following electrification? OAQ(5)0061(EI)

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

This is a matter for which the UK Government is responsible, but I understand from them that the reduction in journey times from London to Cardiff, once the work is completed, will be approximately 17 minutes.

Mark Reckless (UKIP, South Wales East)

Does he agree with me that, even with delays and now the postponement of the Filton Bank work into Bristol, electrification offers huge opportunities for Newport as a business hub, and does he also recognise that, combined with both the western rail link and expansion at Heathrow, we will be ideally placed to benefit as we jump to the front of the queue for a trade deal with the United States?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Well, I would agree that electrification of the main line will undoubtedly benefit Newport. It will also benefit Cardiff, but I would also expect it to be extended in a timely fashion to Swansea, and I do hope that, in the autumn statement, there will be positive news in that regard. I’d urge the UK Government—because I’m conscious that there are now a number of delays and problems associated with some of the projects that it’s responsible for—I would urge the UK Government to consider passing responsibility and fair funding for rail infrastructure to Welsh Government to deliver so that it can become more responsive in terms of what passengers and communities require.

Llyr Gruffydd (Plaid Cymru, North Wales)

8. Will the Minister make a statement on major sporting events in Wales? OAQ(5)0072(EI)[W]

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

In 2016, we’ve supported a wide range of major sporting events including the World Half Marathon, Extreme Sailing Series, Tour of Britain and the Wales Rally GB. We want more major international sporting and cultural events across Wales and there are ongoing discussions with partners to identify many opportunities.

Llyr Gruffydd (Plaid Cymru, North Wales)

Thank you for that response. I would agree that we do need to attract more major sporting events, but they do put pressure on our transport infrastructure, and we have seen—a constituent has been in touch with me referring to three occasions in the last fortnight when a member of her family have had to stand on the train all the way from Wrexham to Cardiff, and, on one occasion, all the way from Wrexham to Newport. That is inconvenient, of course, but it was not possible to use the toilet either, and it raises questions on passenger wellbeing, but also the health and safety more generally of those using trains that are so packed.

She has now written to the Health and Safety Executive to ask them to look at the situation. Being aware that there are two major international sporting events happening in Cardiff this weekend, what assurance can you give that the service will be safe and appropriate?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Well, we meet with rail operators regularly to discuss the impact and the implications of major sporting and cultural events on the rail network, and, indeed, on the road network as well. I’m conscious that it’s not just the sporting events that can cause congestion on roads and also overcrowding on trains; cultural events can also pose problems. There was a recent incident during the summer in north-west Wales where there were problems with parking, which the Member is well aware of. So, it’s important that the organisers of events also join us in talks with rail operators and with those who manage the trunk road network and also local roads.

Whenever we support a major event, we look for all solutions to traffic concerns as an essential part of the criteria of our funding. However, the major sporting events that have taken place here in the capital are those that require special attention, and, for that reason, the major events unit within Welsh Government regularly meets with rail operators to discuss capacity issues. I’m conscious that, next year, we have the Champions League final taking place at the Principality Stadium, and, for months now, officials have been discussing with rail operators and with Network Rail what more can be done to ensure that passengers coming for that event, and also passengers who use the network on a daily basis who will experience a busier period as a result of sporting events, can still experience a quality environment where there is not overcrowding. So, the work will continue, but I think it’s fair to say that, once we have the new franchise in place, with new criteria met by the operator and development partner, we will be in a better position to be able to divert increased capacity down to Cardiff when there are major events down here, or equally, away from the capital when major events take place elsewhere.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary.

2. 2. Questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Health, Well-being and Sport

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The next item on our agenda is questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Health, Well-being and Sport and the first question is from Adam Price.

Adam Price (Plaid Cymru, Carmarthen East and Dinefwr)

1. Will the Minister make a statement on audiology waiting times in Hywel Dda University Health Board? OAQ(5)0055(HWS)

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Audiology waiting times in Hywel Dda university health board are not where they should be. I have written to the Chair and made clear the need for improvement. I expect the health board to work with relevant stakeholders to make that improvement happen.

Adam Price (Plaid Cymru, Carmarthen East and Dinefwr)

I’m extremely grateful to the Cabinet Secretary for his honesty on the dire situation at the moment. A number of constituents have been in contact with me to convey their concerns about the waiting list, which represents hundreds of people awaiting treatment. Some patients had to wait eight months before receiving a hearing aid. Has the Government carried out any assessment of the cause of these lengthy waiting times, and what measures can be put in place in order to ensure that there is improvement? Has the Government given any consideration—in addition to the target that they have set of 14 weeks for a first-time hearing aid—to setting a specific target for replacements, where there is a dire problem at the moment in terms of the waiting times?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

I thank the Member for his follow-up questions, which I recognise. We think that, unfortunately, about 350 people in Hywel Dda wait too long, past the target time. So, we are aware that there is a definite problem within the Hywel Dda health board area. In terms of what’s caused that, there’s a combination of issues, as is almost always the case. Some of this is about short-term staffing measures—for example, there’s been a period of sickness and there’s been a period of maternity cover, as well, which has caused a challenge.

It’s also about getting the right staff mix as well for the future. So, within the conversation that’s being developed with the health board and stakeholders, they’re looking for audiology posts—so it isn’t all just about the consultant end of the workforce. The good news for yourself and other Members in Hywel Dda health board area is that there are going to be interviews taking place within the next month, and we expect that people will then start in the new year, which will help to address the backlog, both for the first appointment and the second or follow-up appointments that you mentioned as well. Part of the work we’re doing on the ENT plan is that we’re actually looking at how we have some sensible measures for understanding both first and second appointments, so there may be some changes that I think would be helpful, both in terms of scrutiny and the ability to understand what is going on. The other element is actually the building work that is taking place in Prince Philip Hospital in Llanelli. That’s a cause of some of the challenge we have, but—the honest answer is—not all of it. So, we should now be in a better position to address the backlog, with the staff coming on board and the completion of those capital works as well.

Paul Davies (Conservative, Preseli Pembrokeshire)

Cabinet Secretary, you’ve just referred to the national ENT implementation plan, which was published earlier this year, and that plan announced that each health board would actually establish an ENT care collaborative group, to oversee issues such as appropriate patient streams and referral thresholds, which would help with reducing waiting times. In light of that plan, can you provide an update on the progress of the Hywel Dda ENT care collaborative group, and tell us what new outcomes have been delivered by the health board in the way it delivers ENT services for patients in west Wales, and can you tell us how this is helping to reduce waiting times?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

As I’ve explained in the first series of answers, it’s actually about the fact that Hywel Dda aren’t where they need to be. Some of it is about short-term measures and some of it is about the longer-term planning and the engagement with stakeholders to make sure that they do have a local plan. They should also benefit from some of the national pilot work being undertaken in other health board areas, both in terms of the point about staff mix, but also about how the pathway is designed. So, I can’t say to you, or any Member—and I wouldn’t try to—that I expect all these issues to be resolved within a period of a few weeks. But I do expect that, before the end of this performance year, and going into the next one, that there’ll be a model of care that is more sustainable, where stakeholders themselves will have been involved in designing that, and in designing the measures to understand what success looks like, and I do then expect Hywel Dda to have a more sustainable delivery mechanism for citizens within west Wales. That should also then transfer into learning across the rest of the country too.

Paul Davies (Conservative, Preseli Pembrokeshire)

2. Will the Minister make a statement on the provision of paediatric services in Pembrokeshire? OAQ(5)0056(HWS)

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

We discussed aspects of the paediatric service in last week’s urgent question. I reiterate again that I expect service provision to be delivered on the basis of the very best available clinical evidence. And, of course, the Member is familiar with the content of the 2015 review, led by the Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health.

Paul Davies (Conservative, Preseli Pembrokeshire)

Cabinet Secretary, as has already been said in this Chamber before, the Royal College of Emergency Medicine have made it clear that a 24-hour paediatric service is needed in order to maintain a full-time accident and emergency service. Given that you continue to tell us that the Welsh Government is listening to experts, can you tell us whether you agree with the Royal College of Emergency Medicine, who are experts, that 24-hour paediatric services are needed to maintain an accident and emergency service? And, if so, will you now look to re-establish full-time paediatric services at Withybush hospital?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Well, there’s an interesting conflation of two separate issues there. In terms of the paediatric service, we know that, in other parts of the UK, the paediatric service is provided by nurses, leading the paediatric service. In fact, the 2015 royal college review indicated that it may be more sensible to move to a nurse-led service around Withybush in any event. That review also told us very clearly that it would not be sensible to try and reinstate a 24-hour paediatric ambulatory care service.

There is a challenge in making sure all these different services match up with each other. A practical thing like moving where the paediatric unit is, so it’s nearer the emergency unit, it’s part of what has already been done. But I do reiterate that the advice that we have had about the model of care being provided in west Wales is one that has serious weight to it, of genuine expertise, where people are responsible for managing, leading and delivering these services around the country, and we’ll continue to be guided by the evidence and advice.

Joyce Watson (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Cabinet Secretary, it is, of course, right that these questions are raised here in the Assembly, and I’m sure that you agree that questions are raised and asked in the Assembly. But I’m a bit concerned about the tone of the question that you had previously, and how that will play out in Pembrokeshire, where I live. I don’t want the message from here to become one of alarm, that, suddenly, Withybush accident and emergency is now at risk, and that is my concern from the previous question. So, what I’m asking of you, Cabinet Secretary, is a clear message that that is not the case, and that the two things that you’ve just said were conflated—paediatric care and A&E services—are separate and that one doesn’t actually depend on the other.

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Thank you for the question, Joyce Watson. I recognise that there is real concern about the future of health in almost every part of the country. Given the commentary about healthcare services in west Wales and the extremity of the language, it is no wonder that people are concerned.

I repeat again: the challenge of having a paediatric service is part of what we are being guided by, and its relationship with the A&E service as well. There are no plans to change the A&E service. We are working with the health board, and it’s the health board’s responsibility to work with its stakeholders, to listen to its clinicians and the public, to meet the desire for a service, but to actually meet the need to deliver that service in a genuinely safe manner that delivers the high-quality care that I expect for every citizen right across Wales.

So, I reiterate again that, on the paediatric service, we are listening to the Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health. They have undertaken another review again, at the end of September, to further inform where we are. I do not believe there is any need to scaremonger or to project fear about the future of A&E services in Withybush or further within west Wales.

Simon Thomas (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

Cabinet Secretary, if Withybush was in your constituency, would the constant reliance on locum paediatric consultants meet your demands and expectations of high-quality care?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

It’s part of the challenge that we have about ensuring that we have a consistent grade—[Interruption.] You’re getting an honest answer.

[Continues.]—that we have a consistent grade of a medical workforce, and those other professionals who support them, to make sure that we do deliver high-quality care. That does mean that we need to move to a model that will allow us to recruit permanent high-quality staff across all those particular grades. As to the consultant cover is being provided, if you look again at the Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health’s review, they indicate it’s for an integrated team, based at Glangwili, to provide that cover, but it does not mean that there is no paediatric service within Withybush; it’s one that meets demand and meets need. And if I lived in and around the Withybush area, I would want to know that the service that is being provided is one that is based on the very best clinical evidence and advice. And that is a challenge. Trying to run a service that meets the needs of local politicians and ignores the requirements of evidence and reliable clinical advice is the wrong thing to do for citizens, either in Withybush or in any other part of the country.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Questions now from party spokesperson. Welsh Conservative spokesperson, Suzy Davies.

Suzy Davies (Conservative, South Wales West)

Diolch, Lywydd. Good afternoon, Minister. The draft budget shows a £3.6 million cut to direct social services funding. Where is that money going and, if it is still for social services purposes, how will I be able to find it in order to scrutinise how it’s spent?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

The draft budget shows an extra £25 million for social services, and that was in respect and in understanding of the severe pressures that the social services sector are under at the moment. Pressures include, for example, the national living wage coming in next year, which will impact on local authorities and providers themselves. But it’s very important to respect the fact that it’s great news that low-paid workers will receive an increase in pay, but also to understand that it’s going to put some pressure on the sector, which is why we’ve allocated an extra £25 million for that. We also allocated more than £4 million extra in order to be able to take the first step in achieving our manifesto commitment of doubling the capital limit that people can keep before paying for care. So, we’ve allocated more than £4 million for that, and, also, money to enable us to put in place the full disregard of the war disablement pension from April of next year.

Suzy Davies (Conservative, South Wales West)

Thank you for that answer. Obviously, we would support the final point that you made regarding the pension. But, effectively, what I’ve heard there is that I’m then to look for this money in wages. Perhaps you can tell me then—. You issued a statement last week, indicating that the recurrent transfer of £27 million a year from the UK Government to meet the cost of providing support to the former independent living fund recipients, is now going straight to councils, as it is in England, rather than to the independent disability sector preferred third party, as in Scotland and Northern Ireland. The purposes of that money is not to sub councils’ cuts. Why have you turned your back on the more co-productive models encouraged by the future generations Act, and what guarantees have you secured that this money will be ring-fenced for its initial purpose?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

I don’t recognise the picture that you’re paining in terms of the support that we are giving to sustainable social services, to our third sector grant scheme, which is where the funding to which you refer, which was formally in the family fund, has been brought into. We have that fund, which is worth £22 million, which brings together four previous grant schemes, and we had 84 applications for grants, seeking just over £69 million for that scheme. So, we did try to look at a fair allocation of funding right across that, and the most that any organisation could have in a grant was £1.5 million. So, the family fund received the full £1.5 million in that.

With regard to the future of the family fund, we’ve actually provided them with £400,000 in order to try and become more sustainable in the future. So, that is one of the ways in which we’re supporting disabled families, and Disability Wales and Carers Wales were also awarded funding within the social services third sector grant scheme as well. On the independent living fund, we’ve tried to take a pragmatic approach in terms of speaking with the sector, with social services and also people in receipt of independent living moneys, in order to try to take a step approach in terms of future delivery, by taking the changes over two years. This was the approach that was suggested to us by our advisory group.

Suzy Davies (Conservative, South Wales West)

Thank you for that answer. I don’t think I heard that the money was going to be ring-fenced for its original purpose and, from my point of view of as a scrutineer, I think it’s going to be difficult for me to follow the money.

Perhaps I can move us on now. You may have heard, Minister, that, after court action for breaching statutory time limits, Swansea council faces further potential legal action, as hundreds of deprivation of liberty safeguard assessments are yet to be signed off. A few weeks ago—and things may have changed by now—there were over 600 needing completion, signing off or allocation, and, of course, these orders affect very vulnerable people, all of them with limited mental capacity. Now, the council and unions don’t agree as to why, but it is clear that social services in Swansea are very stretched. I’m just wondering how Welsh Government can help Swansea social services meet the demands placed upon them, not only for the sake of the social workers that are involved in this, but also for the people who are the subjects of the orders.

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

This is an issue affecting local authorities right across Wales, and, in terms of the why, I think the reason there is that, in 2014, the Supreme Court reached a decision known as ‘Cheshire West’, which widened the definition of what’s meant by deprivation of liberty, and Care and Social Services Inspectorate Wales and Healthcare Inspectorate Wales have jointly described a 16-fold increase in the number of applications, so I recognise the picture that you’re painting in terms of the significant pressures on this right across Wales. I know that the Law Commission are currently looking into this issue at the moment, with a view to publishing a report in December. So, there might be changes as to what deprivation of liberty standards might be and what orders might involve in the future. So, obviously, changes will be decided at UK Government level, but we’ll be keen to have our input into that and to make strong representations.

We have provided local authorities and health boards with funding over the past three years in order to try and have them fulfil their legal obligations with regard to those timescales, but, obviously, I recognise that there is still significant pressure there.

Caroline Jones (UKIP, South Wales West)

Cabinet Secretary, there were 108 deaths involving C. difficile and 22 deaths involving MRSA in Wales last year. While great strides have been made to improve infection control and hand-washing campaigns have been successful, we still have a problem with cleanliness of hospital facilities. I fully accept that we cannot achieve 100 per cent cleanliness in a working hospital. However, there is no excuse for overflowing bins on a ward or dirty walls. So, what action are you taking to improve the cleanliness of our hospitals?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

I thank the Member for her question. She’s right to point out the significant progress that has been made on reducing these levels of infection rates, but there is much more that needs to be done. Every health board has an improvement target each year. Not every health board has managed to achieve that. It’s a regular feature of accountability meetings with both chief executives and me in terms of contact with chairs, and there are often very simple hygiene standards to be addressed that will help with infection rates. There is also a challenge in some parts of the population where there is, if you like, a reservoir of some of these particular infections. But the real challenge is for the health service to do what it could and should do, and we recognise the need for further improvement and that does start with basic hygiene.

Caroline Jones (UKIP, South Wales West)

Thank you for your answer, Cabinet Secretary, and staying on the topic of hospital cleanliness, it was disappointing to learn that Bronllys Hospital received a food hygiene rating of 2, while the majority of hospitals score a hygiene rating of 3 or more. I hope that you will agree with me that every hospital should have a five-star hygiene rating. Food served to frail patients should not only be of the highest nutritional standards, but also prepared, stored and served hygienically. Cabinet Secretary, what is the Welsh Government doing to improve food hygiene in our hospitals and in the wider care sector?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Thank you for the question. Again, you make the point that the great majority of settings in both the care sector and the hospital sector do comply with high hygiene standards. I am particularly disappointed and frustrated by the recent outcome at Bronllys. They have been made very aware that both I and the Minister expect there to be significant and rapid improvement and a reassessment to provide the assurance that not only patients, but their families, will quite rightly expect.

Caroline Jones (UKIP, South Wales West)

Finally, Cabinet Secretary, we can’t totally eradicate hospital-acquired infection, but we must ensure that we’re properly equipped to treat infection. With antimicrobial resistance on the increase and very few new antimicrobials being discovered, we are reaching a crisis point. What lessons has the Welsh Government learnt from the O’Neill review and what role can the Welsh Government play in encouraging greater research into developing new antimicrobials?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Thank you for the third question. There are a range of challenges here. It’s actually an area where the four UK components of the national health service family actually have a joint approach—a recognition of common challenges in antimicrobial resistance, but also in prescribing behaviour as well as a need for further research. So, you will see Wales play its part within the research community. There are significant areas, not only of health gain, but also within the life science sector, for potential further activity. But I think we need to start with, and probably our biggest contribution can be in, making sure that prescribing guidelines are adhered to. There’s got to be a change in both attitude and behaviour from clinicians in both primary and secondary care, but also, importantly, in terms of public expectation about what will happen during healthcare interactions and whether people will be prescribed antibiotics that are appropriate and, equally, will accept and understand when a clinician says an antibiotic is not appropriate as well. We’re actually harming ourselves by overprescribing and overuse, and we’re now going to deal with the reality of some of that challenge. So, there are real challenges, both in behaviour as well as in research and the future in this particular area.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Plaid Cymru’s spokesperson, Rhun ap Iorwerth.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Ynys Môn)

Thank you, Llywydd. Another critical report has been published by the ombudsman today into the quality of care in Glan Clwyd hospital. This time it was a cancer patient who had to wait far too long for treatment. This is the third critical report from the ombudsman in just two months. It happens, of course, in a wider context where Betsi Cadwaladr is in special measures. Why does the health service in north Wales reach the point where we’re hardly surprised in hearing news such as this?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Thank you for the question. Obviously, I’ll be providing more detail in response to the urgent question after this that the Presiding Officer has accepted. The particular issue that you raised is incredibly disappointing, not simply from the point of view of someone who has received care that was not adequate, but also because, actually, Betsi Cadwaladr is a high-performing health board when it comes to providing cancer treatment. So, this case really does stand out, and not in a way that does credit to the health service. But I’m pleased that the chief executive has indicated he would apologise directly to the family, and I’m pleased he recognised issues in 2014, and I also expect not just the points about the care provider but the complaint handler to be dealt with as well. And obviously, I’m deeply disappointed that a citizen who came to the health service with real need has not been treated in a way in which any of us would expect or want to be. So, there are real points of improvement, but in the areas of cancer care, I think there can be some confidence that Betsi Cadwaladr has been a high-performing health board in the past, and we can expect it to be in the future. I expect the new medical director would obviously input into that as well.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Ynys Môn)

But we know, of course, of the wider problems across the board, and when the health board reaches such a point then one would expect radical steps—truly radical steps—to be taken to change things. All we’ve seen in reality is a change in senior management, and, at the moment, I tell you that people have no confidence that that in and of itself is going to introduce the change required.

One thing that is constantly pushed is more centralisation, and rather than dealing with services that are failing, one proposal on the table now is to move vascular services, which are of a world-class standard, from Ysbyty Gwynedd. We are pressing for a consultation on that. Can the Cabinet Secretary explain the rationale for tackling poor performance by destroying those things that work well? And in terms of the future of Ysbyty Gwynedd, does the Cabinet Secretary believe that there should be more or fewer specialist services provided there in the future?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Thank you for the follow-up questions. In terms of the radical steps that are taken, putting a health board into special measures was a radical step. It’s the only health board since the history of devolution to be put into special measures, and it’s not just about changes to only senior managers; there is a need to change the culture within the organisation. That’s why we expect the health board to be in special measures for a significant period of time, because the changes that we need to see, for example, in mental health services, will take a significant period of time. So, I don’t really accept this characterisation that radical steps have not been taken and are not being taken. We also have the reassurance of the tripartite advisory body, so we have external advisers, not just the chief executive of NHS Wales, reviewing the progress that is, or is not, being made with regard to special measures.

On your particular point about vascular surgery, we’ve been through this before, and I simply don’t accept or agree with this characterisation of the issue. The proposals are for about 20 per cent of activity, the highly complex vascular surgery, to be moved to a central unit, and that central specialist unit is based upon evidence it provides better outcomes—better outcomes for the people, regardless of where they live across north Wales, who go into that specialist centre. Eighty per cent of activity will remain where it is. So, for example, the diabetic debridement service that takes place within Ysbyty Gwynedd would stay where it is.

I don’t have a set objective for how many specialist services will remain in their current settings, either in north Wales or anywhere else. I simply set out that the health board, with its local population, wherever it is, must confront those obvious challenges it knows exist, and must address the best clinical evidence and advice on what to do to improve that service. Sometimes, that will be about delivering a service within a community and making care more local, and sometimes, where the evidence tells us the best and the biggest health gains to be made, which will also improve our ability to recruit the right staff in the right place, is actually to have a specialist centre. And I just don’t think it’s tenable for serious players within the debate about the future of the health service to only ever say, ‘We disagree with any proposal to centralise a specialist service’. There is significant evidence that the move for vascular surgery will improve outcomes across north Wales, and I hope that Members will look at the evidence here objectively.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Ynys Môn)

We do have a specialist vascular centre in north Wales and that is in Bangor. According to all the statistics that we have now, in terms of the question on specialist services in Ysbyty Gwynedd, I realise that you don’t have a figure in terms of the number of services, but, as Bruce Forsyth says, ‘Higher or lower?’ That’s all I was asking for. In terms of special measures, it’s not placing the board in special measures that was the radical step, but the declaration that those radical steps were needed.

But we will move on. Plaid Cymru, as the Cabinet Secretary knows, is keen to see the development of medical training in Bangor. Funding for medical education formed part of our recent agreement on the budget. Does the Cabinet Secretary agree that, if he is serious about developing medical education in north Wales, removing specialist services from Bangor makes no sense at all? We see these threats and we have seen threats in the past—maternity services, for example. We are still awaiting investment in the emergency department. Shouldn’t the Government be developing healthcare in Bangor now, as the health centre for north-west Wales, and centralising, if you like, in preparation for introducing that medical training?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

I thank the Member for his final series of questions. I think it’s really important that we separate out the right model for the right form of specialist care, wherever that is across the country, when we focus on north Wales, and in particular on Bangor, so that we don’t just have an argument about one site and one geographic centre. The danger there is that we play the three centres against each other and that’s really not helpful. We have to understand what the very best clinical evidence and advice tells us about what should be a specialist service, what that conversation should or should not be, and then what we can expect in terms of outcomes for the patient as a result. What we do know is that, where those specialist services are created, they’re more likely to recruit staff into them in a sustainable pattern.

So, part of the challenge is not simply about saying, ‘This isn’t broken, so we’re not going to fix it’, because that just means that you wait for a service to fall over before you actually make change and you ignore all the evidence and advice around it, and that can’t be the right way to plan and deliver healthcare in any part of our country. So, that is not what we are prepared to do. And it is not what I expect health boards to do. I expect health boards, in meeting the needs of their local population, to be properly aware of all the evidence and advice of the different services that they have that develop their own place and understanding that their duty is to provide the very best healthcare for their local population. That will mean that the way that some services are delivered will need to change. Not to do that would be to fail the responsibilities that they have to the local population.

We will see a different pattern of services in primary care, in secondary care and tertiary care across this next five years. It’s important that we do, because, otherwise, we simply pretend that running the current model of care, in five years’ time, is going to meet the needs of our population, it’s going to make sure we recruit the right staff in the right place and deliver the right care. Then, we’d be fooling ourselves and we’d be poorly serving our public. I’m not prepared to do that and nor should health boards be. That is not the lead that I’m giving as the Cabinet Secretary for health and I expect other people who really want the health service to succeed, to join that debate in a much more open-minded way and to think again about the quality of care that we’re providing. Service quality and service outcomes drive what I want to see and they should drive what all of us want to see within the health service here in Wales.

Hefin David (Labour, Caerphilly)

3. Will the Minister make a statement on services provided at Ysbyty Ystrad Fawr? OAQ(5)0069(HWS)

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Thank you for the question. Ysbyty Ystrad Fawr provides a wide range of services, including 24-hour emergency services, emergency admission and assessment, short stay observation facilities, minor injuries service and a co-located out-of-hours service. In fact, between the areas of day care, of emergency admissions and of maternity and elective in-patients, it sees, on average, more than 10,000 people within each year, in addition to those other services it provides.

Hefin David (Labour, Caerphilly)

That is the correct answer, Cabinet Secretary. [Laughter.] I’d say, amongst residents in Caerphilly, the role of Ysbyty Ystrad Fawr, though, is not fully understood. The specialist critical care centre that’s designated for Cwmbran, or near Cwmbran—Ysbyty Ystrad Fawr was designed to serve it. And, by the way, you won’t ever hear me call it ‘the SCCC’ ever again after this mention, because I don’t think that sells it to the people of the area.

Bearing in mind this issue, I recently met with the chief executive and chairman of the Aneurin Bevan health board. Following those discussions, I’d like to see a further centre of excellence at Ysbyty Ystrad Fawr, particularly in the form of a centre of excellence for breast care services. I think that would further enhance the activities that are going on in Ysbyty Ystrad Fawr, particularly in relation to the critical care centre that will open in association with it. Will the Cabinet Secretary add his support to that campaign, and add any further support that he’s willing to give?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

I thank the local Member for inviting me to join a local campaign that I know he is taking very seriously. However, I’m sure you will understand that it’s for the health board to take the decision on whether they do have a specialist centre for breast care and on where that is as well. They need to engage the local public, and particular the community health council. It is possible, where I could be called upon to make a decision, you understand that I wouldn’t express a view on it. But what I will say is to reiterate points that I’ve made previously—that the decisions around the capital programme, in particular the specialist and critical care centre, are part of a whole healthcare system that includes Ysbyty Ystrad Fawr. The services that are provided there need to be based on what is the evidence of patient benefits in the patient experience, the patient outcomes in a genuinely sustainable service. I’m aware that there are proposals and discussions about a specialist breast care service, and I look forward to receiving the outcome of those, and understand that they really are founded on those really important points about how we deliver a better service, not just for your constituents, but constituents across Gwent and wider south Wales as well.

Mohammad Asghar (Conservative, South Wales East)

Cabinet Secretary, following the same question that my predecessor asked, Ysbyty Ystrad Fawr is one of the sites being considered by Aneurin Bevan board for a specialist centre of excellence for breast cancer services—

Hefin David (Labour, Caerphilly)

That’s what I just said.

Mohammad Asghar (Conservative, South Wales East)

Yes, I know. I’m just mentioning it and agreeing with you. [Interruption.] In March this year, it was reported, Presiding Officer, that patients in Gwent are waiting longer for breast cancer referrals than anywhere else in Wales. Will the Cabinet Secretary advise when a decision is likely to be taken, and will he commit to exploring all options available to him to deliver excellent breast cancer services in South Wales East?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

I thank the Member for the question. In trying to discern what’s different about the points made by the Member for Caerphilly—I’ve said what I said about not being able to comment on an individual decision, but the evidence about the current service drives the need to think about how the service is delivered in the future. And that’s the point—I’m not thinking you can deliver the same service in the same pattern and expect improvement. So, I look forward to seeing the proposals that the health board are running, and have a discussion with the local population and the community health councils. If it comes across my desk, I will look at, as I’ve said to the local Member for Caerphilly, the evidence of patient benefit, experience and outcome, and a genuinely sustainable high-quality service.

Mark Reckless (UKIP, South Wales East)

Some people were clearly disappointed by the scope of services available, and particularly the nature of the emergency service, compared to their prior expectations. I just wonder if there are any lessons to be learned by the Welsh Government or the health board as plans are made and communicated for the future of the Royal Gwent Hospital in Newport and Nevill Hall Hospital in Abergavenny, in light of the very welcome specialist and critical care centre.

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Well, some of the challenges about the nurse-led service are about understanding what is and isn’t there, and, actually, some of that relates to a lack of understanding about the high-quality care that advanced nurse practitioners do provide, and the high numbers of people who go to Ysbyty Ystrad Fawr and are seen very quickly and very professionally. You don’t hear an awful lot of complaints, actually, about the quality of care that’s provided in Ysbyty Ystrad Fawr, and I think more people could make more use of that, rather than defaulting to a larger centre, where their care needs could be met closer to where they are.

There are always lessons to be learned about how health boards communicate plans for changing the way that health services are delivered, and it’s important that we don’t shut off and say we’ve reached a point of perfection. There will always be more that we could and should learn, so that’s why we expect health boards to constantly engage with their local populations to explain the rationale behind any decisions and proposals for the future. I think the most important point is to constantly reiterate: what is the benefit for the citizen, what is driving the service change agenda, how will it actually impact on those patients, and can we expect to see an improvement in the quality of the service that they receive? I think, actually, Aneurin Bevan is one of the better health boards in this area. For example, despite some difficulties with the way that the stroke care reconfiguration has been delivered, it’s now in a much better place and they’re recruiting stroke clinicians in a way that other parts of the country aren’t always able to, because they’ve got a better service and they’ve engaged their local population about that. So, I look forward to seeing other health boards learning from each other and improve the way we talk to and listen to our public in redesigning healthcare for the future.

Mike Hedges (Labour, Swansea East)

4. Will the Minister make a statement regarding the share of resources between primary and secondary care? OAQ(5)0061(HWS)

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Thank you for the question. I expect resources between and within primary and secondary care to be used to address the health and well-being needs of the populations that each health board area serves. I expect resource use to both lead and follow the changing pattern of services as more care is delivered closer to home.

Mike Hedges (Labour, Swansea East)

Can I thank the Cabinet Secretary for that response? But the share of the Welsh health budget spent on primary care has reduced over recent years. Is there any intention from the Welsh Government to try and reverse this trend, because I believe, and I hope the Cabinet Secretary does, that spending money in primary care saves money further along the line?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Thank you for the point. I think part of the challenge in understanding what’s happening in primary care is understanding what we mean by primary care spend, as well. I’ve seen a range of figures. There’s obviously campaigning, lobbying and, quite rightly, scrutiny about the amount of money that we spend and the share of money that we spend. For example, we spend in primary care spend 13.7 per cent of our budget, compared with Scotland spending 11.8 per cent. That’s drawn from comparative figures that the Royal College of General Practitioners in Scotland accept as properly representing primary care. So, it isn’t just a general medical services spend.

I think, though, that rather than getting lost in talking about a set percentage of the health budget or a set sum of money, we need to be focused on what is our vision and expectation for the future of healthcare services. How will they be delivered? If more care is going to be delivered within the community and closer to home, we need to shift our resources. Those resources are in some parts financial, but, actually, a lot is about the staff that we have and the way that we use and remodel our primary care estate to be able to deliver that service. I’m interested in delivering the right service, in the right place, at the right time and having resources that enable us to do that. That will see a shift in resource. That’s where my priority is, rather than having a set point at which I say, ‘I want x amount to go into primary care or secondary care,’ because I don’t think that’s necessarily the right way to run and manage the service.

Nick Ramsay (Conservative, Monmouth)

Cabinet Secretary, community pharmacies have a big role to play in delivering care in the right place at the right time, as you just talked about. I had the chance, recently, to visit a Lloyds Pharmacy in my constituency. I was struck by the disjoint between hospitals and community pharmacists when it comes to discharge. Although discharge medicine reviews do happen, I understand that 30 per cent of hospital readmissions are down to medicine errors. Is this an area the Cabinet Secretary will be looking at in the current negotiations he’s having with Community Pharmacy Wales around a new pharmacy contract for Wales?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Thank you for the question. It allows me to highlight work that is already ongoing. Of course, I’m sure you will appreciate, and the pharmacy you visited will appreciate, that we are taking a very different approach to the funding of community pharmacy here in Wales, compared with the £200 million cuts being delivered to pharmacy in England. It’s a real challenge for community pharmacy over our border. I am pleased we’re taking a different approach, not just on the money, but on what we expect to see delivered for that money as well, because we will have a quality-based approach with that extra sum of money that we are saying we will continue to invest in community pharmacy. It will change not just dispensing against the amount of items, not just volume, but actually the quality of the service as well. I’ve already asked for a piece of work to be done with community pharmacy—it’s being led by the chief pharmaceutical officer—on looking at a specific range of areas, and actually understanding how we improve the hospital discharge process is a specific part of that work, and I expect to see proposals for improvement. I think we can make greater use and greater benefit from the quality of services that exist within community pharmacy to make things easier for patients who leave the hospital and then go back into their community, and, at the same time, we’ll certainly have a very busy hospital pharmacy service as well. So, over the course of the next six months or so, I think we’ll hear more from me about how we’ll continue to develop and invest in community pharmacy here in Wales.

David Lloyd (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

You made that announcement last month of £20,000 to attract new junior doctors to work in general practice in areas of Wales where it’s difficult to attract doctors. Naturally, we welcomed that, but it does nothing for the huge pressures on GPs currently in post this afternoon, in all parts of Wales if truth be told. So, what about vireing some resources and funding to primary care now in order to assist those GPs currently working, as well as attracting future GPs?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Thank you for the point, and it’s one that is well understood. Part of the work we’re doing on the ministerial group that I’ve convened and I’m chairing is to look at both the points about new entrants into the profession as well as supporting the people currently in it. So, this isn’t a point about ignoring people who are currently working within primary care. So, the incentives were specific to deal with and address areas of need. We’re listening to our partners around the table, and it’s all partners—a range of health professionals, including, of course, the British Medical Association and the Royal College of General Practitioners—to think about how we better support our current practices. There’s something about the cluster money that is already there, and making sure it gets out to practices so they can use it and determine how they want to use it with their partners within primary care. There’s also something about looking again at the sustainability framework and understanding what we need to do to actually make sure that more practices engage in that. Because we have found that not every practice that is facing a challenge is prepared to go through that process where extra help can be provided. I think there’s something about the level of trust and information sharing to allow that support to be provided. So, there’s more work for us to do, and it’s actually an opportune time to be talking about this because, of course, we’re starting negotiations with the BMA on the future of the GMS contract here in Wales. So, plenty of opportunity, both in the contract negotiation, but also with the work that we are doing to try and improve the numbers of people, but also the range of people within the primary care workforce.

Jenny Rathbone (Labour, Cardiff Central)

I’d just like to pick up on the point made by Nick Ramsay because it’s completely unacceptable that a third of all hospital readmissions are due to medicine errors. I want to probe a little bit further on the specific point that when it’s been decided that somebody is ready to leave hospital, why is it not possible for them to then pick up the prescription that they may have been prescribed from their community pharmacist, rather than having to wait for it to be dispensed by the hospital? Because that would then enable them to get out of hospital quicker, making them get well quicker, and making the bed available for somebody else.

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

It’s part of the work that I expect to see undertaken because I think the ideal thing would be for people to be able to have that medication, wherever possible, delivered by or with their community pharmacy, whether it’s about collecting or about a home delivery service. The great majority of community pharmacies do provide that form of service. I think it would help in seeing people leave the hospital when they’re fit for discharge. It would also deal with some of the delays within the hospital pharmacy service that we know take place as well. So, people that really have to be seen within a hospital pharmacy setting should get their medication more rapidly, as well as it allowing people to leave. So, it’s absolutely a part of the work that I’ve asked to take place and, as I say, I look forward, over the next six months or so, to reporting back to Members on the progress that is being made.

Angela Burns (Conservative, Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire)

5. Will the Minister provide an update on the Welsh Government’s plans for neonatal services in Wales? OAQ(5)0067(HWS)

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Yes. I’m happy to say that the most recent perinatal mortality surveillance report, published in May of this year, showed that Wales’s neonatal outcomes were comparable to the UK as a whole, and better than some areas with similar levels of high deprivation. So, we will continue to invest in the workforce and in capital to develop neonatal services for the future.

Angela Burns (Conservative, Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire)

I’m glad to recognise the improvement in outcomes. However, you will be aware that a recent report by Bliss highlighted that only two out of 10 neonatal units had enough nurses to staff their cots in line with national standards. If you fail to address this matter for next September’s trainee nurse intake, then will it not become impossible for your Government to fulfil the commitment made by the First Minister on 13 July for neonatal services in Wales to be properly staffed by 2021? Given that, I wonder if you could highlight what actions you’re taking to ensure that this commitment is indeed met.

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Thank you for all the follow-up questions. Of course, when we have our trainee nurse numbers we expect to have an intake, and there are challenges for us to discover and deliver on to make sure that we actually retain those nurses within the Welsh system if at all possible. There’s also a problem with general nurse recruitment anyway. You’ll know that there is a general challenge across western Europe, in fact, in recruiting and retaining nurses. It isn’t something unique to Wales, but it does mean that we are in a very, very competitive market, just as with some parts of doctor recruitment.

I don’t think that we’re going to get to the point where the commitments that this Government has made are going to be undeliverable. The challenge is how we do it, but what should provide some confidence is that, in a range of areas, we’ve already seen a significant increase in some of the nursing numbers. For example, in west Wales, you’ll be aware following the question last week, that one of the things that has been done with the new model is a significant improvement in nurse recruitment and retention. So, it is possible. It’s part of what we expect to see. We need to make sure that the models of care that we provide are attractive to keep nurses there to provide high-quality care. But, of course, you will see—in a very open way, through each year—a range of information about the nurse numbers we have in neonatal services. And we will, of course, report against those national standards. My interest is to make sure that we meet those national standards and we continue to evidence a real improvement in outcomes for mothers and babies as well.

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Thank you. Michelle Brown. No? Okay. Thank you. Question 6, Vikki Howells.

Vikki Howells (Labour, Cynon Valley)

6. Will the Minister provide an update on Welsh Government progress to reduce childhood obesity rates? OAQ(5)0063(HWS)

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

Although latest figures suggest that obesity levels among children in Wales are stable, rates are still unacceptably high. Our programme for government makes a clear commitment to tackling obesity, working across Government and with schools to promote and increase healthier lifestyle choices.

Vikki Howells (Labour, Cynon Valley)

Publication of the UK Government’s action plan for tackling childhood obesity met with criticism from campaigners due to the watering down of many of the expected proposals, especially those around sugar and on the advertising of unhealthy foods. In the Cwm Taf Local Health Board area, which includes my constituency, 28.1 per cent of four- to five-year-olds, the second highest in Wales, are overweight or obese, and there is a pressing need to take action. Will the Minister make representations to the UK Government that the proposals contained in their action plan are inadequate and need urgent revisiting to give children in my constituency and across Wales the protection they need?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

Well, the Welsh Government joined many others in expressing some disappointment at the lack of ambition in the UK Government’s childhood obesity strategy. There are a number of areas in which the Welsh Government has consistently urged the Secretary of State for Health to deliver stronger action at a UK level, and that includes tougher action on sugar, for example, and particularly on the advertising of unhealthy foods to children. The Cabinet Secretary and I have jointly written to the Secretary of State for Health on this precise matter, expressing our disappointment and pressing the case for tougher action as well. But, in the meantime, we do continue to use all of the levers that we have here in Wales, for example, to support our food industry centres to help reformulate their products to reduce sugar, salt and fat, and we continue to work to ensure that children have a healthier start in life, for example, through our 10 Steps to a Healthy Weight programme, our Healthy Child Wales programme and the network of healthy schools initiative, which 99 per cent of schools in Wales are taking part in.

Julie Morgan (Labour, Cardiff North)

7. What plans does the Minister have to support people with coeliac disease in helping them maintain healthy lifestyles? OAQ(5)0075(HWS)

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

Health boards in Wales follow national guidance to support general practitioners and other healthcare professionals in the management of patients with coeliac disease. Staple items, such as fresh bread and pasta, are available on prescription to help patients optimise their nutritional status and maintain a healthy, well-balanced lifestyle.

Julie Morgan (Labour, Cardiff North)

I thank the Minister for that response. I have been contacted by a constituent who suffers from coeliac disease, who finds it very difficult to find foods that are certain to be 100 per cent gluten free, and is very concerned that the staple food may be withdrawn from the list of free prescriptions. Would you be able to reassure my constituent about that issue?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

Yes. There are no plans to change the current situation with regard to staple items such as, as I said, fresh bread and pasta being available on prescription. Community pharmacies are actually really important in terms of providing people with coeliac disease the opportunity to buy a wide range of products, as well as what they receive on prescription. That just reinforces again the importance of community pharmacy in terms of meeting the health needs of people with coeliac disease and a wide range of other conditions.

Nick Ramsay (Conservative, Monmouth)

8. Will the Minister make a statement on the GP out-of-hours services available in south east Wales? OAQ(5)0059(HWS)

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

I expect all health boards to provide safe and effective out-of-hours services to respond to urgent healthcare needs. This includes ensuring that those with the most urgent clinical needs are dealt with soonest, and that all patients are dealt with within a clinically appropriate time.

Nick Ramsay (Conservative, Monmouth)

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. I was recently contacted by an 87-year-old constituent who was in need of an out-of-hours appointment following a problem with a catheter in the early hours of the morning. A home visit was requested by phone at 11.00 a.m. and a visit booked. A doctor didn’t finally arrive until 8.00 p.m., nine hours later, after several phone calls in the meantime. The doctor then advised an ambulance to hospital. That arrived. My constituent says that, throughout, the staff who dealt with him were second to none, but he was really concerned about the delays involved in the out-of-hours service that he experienced, and he asked me if I would raise it with you in the Chamber. I wonder if you could take a look at this case—I am happy to provide you with the details—and whether you could tell us what advice and guidance you’re giving to the local health boards to try and make sure that these types of delays are, at the very least, kept to a minimum.

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Yes, I would be happy if you would provide me with details of the incident, particularly the time of week that it took place—whether it was the weekend or in the week. Blocked catheters are a relatively common issue for an out-of-hours service. It is also part of the challenge about having a district nursing service available as well, as part of an improvement we need to see, because it should not be the case that a blocked catheter leads to an A&E attendance. That is not something that I believe is appropriate either for the health service, or, more importantly, for the individual citizen. So, I would be interested to hear directly of this example, because it’s a good example of what we need to see a lot less of, and, in terms of blocked catheters, dealt with effectively by the primary care service, whether in hours or out of hours.

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary.

3. Urgent Question: Bashir Naderi

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

The Llywydd has accepted two urgent questions under Standing Order 12.66, and I call on Neil McEvoy to ask the first urgent question.

Neil McEvoy (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

In light of the imminent possible removal of Bashir Naderi from the UK next Tuesday, will the Minister consider making representations to stop this from happening? EAQ(5)0063(CC)

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I thank the Member for his question. I am sympathetic to the circumstances of this case, but immigration is not a devolved issue and it’s not the Welsh Government’s practice to make representation on individual cases. I know that Assembly Members have made representation to the Home Office, and others may wish to join them in this.

Neil McEvoy (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

I know that immigration isn’t a devolved matter, but communities are, so hence you’re taking the question, and I’m really pleased that the statement of opinion is going from the Assembly; that is really important. But I think if the Government were to make a statement then that would make the case even stronger, and that’s why we’re elected: to stand up for the people of Wales. So, I urge you to do so.

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I understand that many elected Members have made representations, to which the Home Secretary is answerable, and they’ve made a strong case. Indeed, the Cardiff MPs have done so, and they made a strong case representing Mr Naderi’s case and I hope the Home Secretary will take notice of the views expressed here and amongst the wider Welsh public. However, immigration policy is not devolved to the Welsh Government.

Jenny Rathbone (Labour, Cardiff Central)

I appreciate that the Government can’t intervene on something that’s not a devolved matter, but I just think it’s important that we express our concern. Today I met the family of Nicole Cooper, who is the partner of Mr Naderi, and the father is a former police officer with 30 years’ service, and the son, who is the brother of Nicole Cooper, has represented Wales in the 300m jump—the 400m, sorry. So, this is an exemplary family and an exemplary young man, and it’s causing huge concern in the community amongst people who’ve met this young man and who’ve been at school with him, who’ve been at college with him, and who realise just what a contribution he could be making in Wales.

So, it was fantastic to have such a great show of solidarity amongst all four parties here in the Senedd, on the steps this afternoon, but I just think that we just need to be showing our concern at this ripping apart of a valued member of this community.

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

We’re very grateful for the comments by Jenny, and I know Julie Morgan and Lynne Neagle have also made representation to me. I am sympathetic to the case, but I am not the decision maker here, and I am sure the Member is aware of that. The process here is a clear one, whereby representation needs to be made to the Home Secretary, which I know that Members have done in this Chamber. It is only right that Members are able to express their views and support for the family and for the individual in this case in this Chamber, but, unfortunately, this is not a devolved matter. I do not have any responsibility around this.

Caroline Jones (UKIP, South Wales West)

Cabinet Secretary, I fully support the intervention with the Home Office in order to prevent this deportation. I commend Jenny Rathbone, Julie, and Neil McEvoy in bringing this constantly to the Chamber. Cabinet Secretary, will you speak to the Home Secretary to urge them to reconsider in this instance?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

As I responded to the others, I refer the Member to my previous response to the Members. It is a matter for individuals to make representation as the elected Members representing those bodies. I would advise the Member to write directly to the Ministry in order to make her representation known.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Ynys Môn)

I think we all hear what you’re saying, Cabinet Secretary, in that Assembly Members, of course, have made their voices heard. But, whilst this is not a devolved matter, and we also accept that point, it is quite appropriate for the Government to make its opinions known and to make representations to UK Government on non-devolved matters. Would the Cabinet Secretary agree with me on that?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I think I’ve made my response very clear. I am sympathetic to the circumstances of this case, and the Members have brought it to my attention during this debate and earlier. However, this isn’t the responsibility of Welsh Government—it’s a matter for the Home Office, and therefore Members must make their representation to the Home Office for them to make the appropriate decision. It’s not normal practice for the Welsh Government to make representation for individual cases here in Wales.

Julie Morgan (Labour, Cardiff North)

Bashir Naderi is a constituent of Jenny Rathbone, but many of his friends and supporters live in Cardiff North. In particular, I was approached by a young woman who lives in Cardiff North—his friend—who said, ‘Bash may have been born abroad, but he is now Welsh’. He’s been brought up by a foster family—she’s still his mum—he’s been educated here, he has no contacts in Afghanistan, and it just seems to me absolutely inhumane that, at the age of 18, the Home Office then decide, ‘Right, he goes back’. I accept entirely what you’re saying that immigration is not devolved, but if a person who has received all the services from Wales, and who wants to contribute back to Wales, is snatched in this inhumane way, is there some way that the Government can communicate with the Home Office about this practice, this way of operating? Because I am aware of other people that this has happened to in this sudden fashion, and I do feel that if this happens to someone who lives in Wales, we do have a responsibility here in the Senedd.

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

Of course, again, I recognise the absolute commitment by Members in this Chamber to the support of Bashir. The issue is, of course, a technical one that the Home Office has to make these decisions. If it was my decision, it may be a very different discussion we’d have. I can give you assurances that I’m sure the Home Office will be made fully aware of this discussion and urgent question here today, and the Minister will be informed of your points of view in that process.

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary.

4. Urgent Question: Glan Clwyd Hospital

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

The second urgent question has been accepted by the Llywydd, and I call on Llyr Gruffydd to ask that urgent question.

Llyr Gruffydd (Plaid Cymru, North Wales)

Will the Minister make a statement concerning the Ombudsman’s report, which found ‘systemic failure’ in a cancer patient’s care at Glan Clwyd Hospital in Bodelwyddan? EAQ(5)0076(HWS)

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Thank you for the question. The health board has fully accepted the identified failings and recommendations in this individual case. I’m pleased the chief executive of the health board will apologise personally to the patient concerned. I expect the health board to take swift action on the recommendations, and officials from the Welsh Government will be monitoring progress closely.

Llyr Gruffydd (Plaid Cymru, North Wales)

Thank you for that response. I too would want to acknowledge the way that the health board has responded to what has been said in the report. Unfortunately, it feels as if these reports are appearing almost on a weekly basis these days, and it’s important to note that many of these are historical cases that are emerging and that the board is trying to resolve problems—and they are, of course, in special measures. But, there’s no signal, as far as I can see, that some of these fundamental problems related to staffing—which have been at the heart of many of these cases that have been highlighted—have been resolved. The chief executive, in response to today’s report, said that the urology department was still under huge pressures. The ombudsman says that there needs to be a capacity review. My question therefore is: would you accept that the fundamental factor in many of these cases that we have seen, including this latest one, is the shortage of staff, and that staffing problems, of course, lead to increasing pressures on individuals and services, which in turn unfortunately make it more likely that mistakes are made? Can I ask you, therefore, what your Government is doing to resolve this fundamental issue?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Thank you for that series of points in the follow-up question. As I mentioned earlier in response to your colleague Rhun ap Iorwerth, when he mentioned this particular case, there are challenges about the care provided and the model of care provided, but also, this case highlighted a very real challenge with the unacceptable way in which the complaint itself was dealt with. That’s absolutely part of this as well. I think a lot of the anxiety could have been taken out if the health board had dealt with the complaint in a more timely way, and hadn’t decided to move the complaint to the end of actually receiving a form of care. I don’t think that was acceptable, and I want to be really clear that that should not happen at this health board, or any other, in the future. In terms of the points about the make-up of cancer services and the pressure, some of these are UK-wide pressures and some of them are more localised pressures as well. We know that urology services are under pressure right across the UK, so there is something here about understanding how we have, again, the right form of service. So, that’s something about capital investment and it’s also about a model of care as well.

This really does go to the heart of the point you make about workforce challenges, because I said in response to questions earlier today—and in pretty much every questions I deal with there is almost always a question about the workforce—it’s who we have, whether they’re the right grade, whether we have enough of them, and how we get more staff in what is almost always a really competitive market, not just within the UK, but further afield, too. That’s why having the right models of care really does make a difference. We make it much more difficult to recruit to models of care that are not delivering and are leaving people in a position where the service is unlikely to be seen as sustainable. So, there’s a range of different things that we need to do.

You’ll see action that the Government will take on the way in which we commission places and the way in which we design and deliver the workforce to improve workforce planning in the current weeks and months. That’s long-standing work; decisions will get made on that in the near future. You’ll then see also the work that we’re going to do in terms of the investment we’ll make again in education and training places here within Wales, and the way we support our students, too, as well. It goes with the point your colleague Dai Lloyd made as well about understanding what we need to do to both bring more people in, whether it’s primary care or secondary care, but also to keep the people that we’ve got. There’s a range of different points in all this, and I wouldn’t pretend that there is one simple answer to deal with any of this. The challenge for the Government and the health boards is—and the deanery as well—how do we make sure the environment we create in Wales is one where people are valued, people are respected, and at the same time our high expectations are met, and what we need to do to see the system change positively is to deal with those workforce challenges and to continue to deliver the high-quality care that people, quite rightly, would expect from our national health service.

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

Let me begin by thanking Glan Clwyd and Wrexham Maelor for the cancer treatment they’ve given to members of my own family. Nonetheless, this does raise serious concerns. I have—I won’t read them all out—upheld complaints by the ombudsman against Glan Clwyd here in 2012, two in 2013, and one in September this year, when a gentleman with chronic renal failure died and the ombudsman felt there was a complete lack of responsibility by the consultant physician and a lack of renal physicians on the day concerned. I had another one this month, where a complaint was upheld when a daughter complained her father’s treatment post-operatively at Glan Clwyd was inadequate, resulting in his death from sepsis, and now this. You say the health board has apologised, and I’m sure it has, and I welcome that, but in each instance, the ombudsman has made a range of recommendations to the health board for the review of procedures, audit and training and, in each case, his recommendations have been accepted by the university health board. How do you propose to drive the cultural change within the institution so that, whether people are cleaners, maintenance staff, nursing staff, doctors or clinicians, they all feel motivated and part of a team with management that minimises these sorts of problems in the future through a patient-focused approach, notwithstanding, of course, the pressures upon them and other hospitals throughout Wales?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

I thank the Member for his series of questions and points. There is a something here about cancer—and I was pleased to hear him acknowledge the treatment that members of his family have received, because, as I said earlier in response to Rhun ap Iorwerth, actually, Betsi Cadwaladr has a good reputation for the speed and the quality of treatment in cancer services. But that doesn’t mean to say that you should simply then ignore those areas where we recognise that that quality has not been provided. I’ll make this point: the reports of the ombudsman do not get ignored, either by health boards or by the Government. So, the health board, as it will know, can expect to see follow-up from this report, to see that the recommendations are being implemented.

The challenge always is how we have a reporting system that can acknowledge where there have been failures, to give people some recourse and, at the same time, how we try to deliver a learning and improvement environment as well, because the challenge is—in this instance, there were four different consultants involved in the care of this one individual. There’s learning for each person and each member of the wider team. The challenge is how to ensure that learning is then implemented and we don’t move to a system where it’s effectively a system of providing blame, because that is actually the worst thing that we could do, because that would either lead to people wanting to hide their mistakes or to move away from them, or actually, if we want to hire more people to come into a service and more people are blaming each other, that is not the right focus for the national health service. So, it has to be on improvement as well as accountability, and that balance, I think, is being struck, but it doesn’t mean to say that we’ll get everything perfectly right in the Government in our relationships with health boards, and the health boards themselves as well. And that’s why we want some maturity in the conversation about the future.

I do think, though, that, over the course of this next term, Members should expect to see an improvement in quality and outcomes within the service, and where there are complaints, as with any service of this scale and size—and there will be, there will be times when we don’t get things right—. Even in a fantastically performing system, the challenge is what we do about things so that we minimise those risks, and that unacceptable treatment, and what we do to learn from those, to understand what we need to improve in the future and make sure that we don’t see happen in the future as well.

So, I take on board the points that are made, and, as I say, these reports are not ignored, they’re taken very seriously, both by the Government, and, indeed, the health boards themselves.

Michelle Brown (UKIP, North Wales)

I know from the experiences of a family member who had cancer some years ago, and was treated at Ysbyty Glan Clwyd, that the medical staff on the front line do their utmost to provide prompt, high-quality care. However, this isn’t the first time that the ombudsman has found failures at Ysbyty Glan Clwyd surrounding treatment, despite the obvious efforts of the staff on the front line. What is the Welsh Government going to do to ensure that the medical staff at Ysbyty Glan Clwyd receive the resources and assistance that they need to provide an effective and efficient medical service, and what direct action is the Minister going to take to address the failures in care in Ysbyty Glan Clwyd that the ombudsman has highlighted?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Thank you for the question. I believe most of the first part of the question has been answered, in response both to Rhun ap Iorwerth and Llyr Gruffydd, and also Mark Isherwood. And I’m pleased to say and acknowledge that this isn’t down to a lack of effort, but there is something about a learning culture, where people genuinely challenge, and constructively challenge, the way in which care is provided within multidisciplinary teams.

In terms of the direct action, again I’ve explained that the Welsh Government won’t ignore the report. I’ve explained, in terms of the accountability conversations that are happening with both the chief executive and with the chair, that the issue will get raised, and that they can expect there to be follow-up from officials as well, to make sure that the learning is actually carried out, and can be evidenced now that that learning has been taken on board, both by individual staff and across the whole system. Because, as I say, I want to see learning and improvement take place as a result of each of these reports, rather than simply looking to blame a particular individual and not look at what the whole system could and should do differently.

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary.

5. 3. 90-second Statements

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

We now move on to item 3, which is the 90-second statements, and the first one this afternoon is David Rees.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Diolch, Ddirprwy Lywydd. Yesterday was the fifteenth anniversary of the horrific explosion at blast furnace No. 5 at the Port Talbot steelworks. The explosion occurred at 5.15 p.m. on 8 November 2001, and many residents in Port Talbot quickly became aware of the incident after hearing the loud bang of the explosion.

Three steelworkers lost their lives that day—Andrew Hutin, age 20, Stephen Galsworthy, age 25, both from Port Talbot, and Len Radford, age 53, from Maesteg. Several other steelworkers were injured, and some of those experienced life-changing injuries.

The emergency services, both internal at the steelworks and external, quickly responded and attended the site. They faced horrific scenes. The injured, many with severe burns, were transported to the various hospitals in the area, and received excellent care from the NHS. Today I want to remember those who died, those who were injured, and those who suffered, and are still suffering with post-traumatic stress disorder, as a result of being at that event. And we must also not forget their families. I also want to, once again, say ‘thank you’ to all the emergency staff and the NHS staff who responded to this incident.

As we seek to secure the future of the steel industry here in Wales, we must not lose sight of the dangers that steelworkers face every time they start their shifts in our steelworks, and, in doing so, steelworkers are delivering for the UK. It is important that we now deliver a strong and safe industry for them.

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Thank you very much. Huw Irranca-Davies.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Diolch. I and Llyr Gruffydd, and many others throughout the land, are currently sprouting facial hair at this very moment, this very Movember, to raise awareness and funds for research into prostate cancer, and also wider issues of men’s health, including mental health and testicular cancer.

Why the moustaches? Because people ask us what it’s all about: are we doing it for a bet, or worse? And then we can tell them, because now we’re talking, which men don’t tend to do very well on these matters. It’s a bit of fun, with a serious purpose.

The Movember Foundation is a global men’s health charity, which raises funds to deliver innovative, breakthrough research that enables men to live happier, healthier and longer lives. Millions have joined the movement, raising over £440 million, and funding over 1,200 projects, focusing on prostate cancer, testicular cancer and suicide prevention. The foundation encourages men to stay healthy in all areas of their lives, with the focus on becoming more open to discussing their health and significant moments in their lives.

So, a quick mention for all those involved in cutting-edge research, such as Prostrate Cymru and Prostrate UK, and for those involved in the Men’s Sheds movement, which began in Wales, in Tondu, and to all those others who seek to improve men’s mental and physical health. I thank the Presiding Officer for letting us raise these important matters of men’s health here in our Assembly, and by doing so, speaking to Wales. We all need to talk more about this, and we need to act, and we hope our little moustaches may help. Happy Movember.

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

And finally, Simon Thomas.

Simon Thomas (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. About a year ago, I met Elly Neville of Pembroke, and Elly had won a competition to design a collage Pembrokeshire flag at Pembroke Dock Community School as part of the school’s St David Day’s celebrations. Elly and her family then took the flag around Pembrokeshire to raise funds for the refurbishment and upgrade of ward 10 at Withybush hospital, to make it once again a dedicated cancer ward. Her father, Lyn, had been a chemotherapy patient at ward 10 himself after a bone marrow transplant.

Elly’s ward 10 flag appeal has grown and grown. Now, it is an official part of the Hywel Dda health charities. To date, the campaign has raised over £52,000 and has purchased its first equipment for the ward. The next step is to get approval for the full business case for refurbishing ward 10, which had given its dedicated staff and facilities for her father’s recovery. But even Elly’s prodigious feats will need Welsh Government assistance for such ward refurbishment.

Perhaps I should have mentioned that Elly is six years old. Her contribution has already been wonderful, and she is a credit to her family, school and community. She received a British Citizen Youth Award last month in the House of Lords. I commend her work and the charity to the Assembly. Diolch yn fawr, Elly.

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Thank you very much.

6. 4. Statement by the Chair of the Climate Change, Environment and Rural Affairs Committee on the Committee's Inquiry into the Future of Agricultural and Rural Policies in Wales

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

We now move on to item 4, which is a statement by the Chair of the Climate Change, Environment and Rural Affairs Committee on the future of agriculture and rural policies in Wales. I call on the Chair of the climate change committee, Mark Reckless.

Mark Reckless (UKIP, South Wales East)

Diolch. If we are to secure the best possible deal for our rural communities, agriculture and environment following our exit from the European Union, then we must be bold and clear in what we expect from the UK Government. We, the Climate Change, Environment and Rural Affairs Committee, have reached an early consensus based on expert advice and the views of our stakeholders. The committee and I agreed to make this statement in order to send a clear message to the UK Government about what Wales wants at the outset of the exit process.

We are seeking two commitments from the UK Government. The first is in relation to future funding. We believe that Wales must continue to receive the level of funding for agriculture, environment and rural development that it currently receives from the European Union. That was, after all, the promise made by a number of senior campaigners on the ‘leave’ side in the EU referendum. Whilst we recognise that the ‘leave’ campaign did not speak for the UK Government, several of its senior campaigners now do, notably the Foreign Secretary and the Secretary of State at the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs.

The second commitment is in relation to policy freedom for Wales. Decisions on future agriculture, environment and rural development policies should be taken in Wales. After all, responsibility is devolved. Should the case be made for some level of UK-wide policy framework, then this should be done on the basis of agreement between the devolved administrations and the UK Government. We also support bilateral discussion between the Welsh and UK Governments. Agreement on any overarching policy framework should be subject to scrutiny by the devolved Parliaments and Assemblies and require their consent. If the UK Government does ensure a continuation of prior EU funding to Wales in full, then we call on the Welsh Government to make a commitment in return. We ask that the Welsh Government agrees to protect funding, once transferred to Wales, for the support of agriculture, environment and rural development policy.

On behalf of the committee, I have written to Andrea Leadsom MP, the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, to seek a commitment to maintaining the funding envelope for Wales. I have also written to Lesley Griffiths AM, Cabinet Secretary for Environment and Rural Affairs, who I’m delighted to see in the Siambr, to ask for an assurance that such funds would be protected and continue to be used to support agriculture, the environment and our rural communities.

Only with these undertakings from the UK and Welsh Governments can we with confidence propose future policies. It’s crucial to recognise the current EU funding for agriculture and rural development is several times higher than it would be if subject to the Barnett formula.

The continuation of prior EU funding is needed to ensure the economic and environmental sustainability of our rural areas. Without it, we risk losing the unique cultural, social and linguistic cohesion that characterises rural Wales.

The committee’s work on our post-Brexit agriculture and rural development inquiry has been about more than future financing. We’ve have held discussions with farmers, foresters and environmentalists. In September, we visited farms and food producers in Ceredigion. Last month, we held a workshop with stakeholders from across Wales, as well as convening a seminar of leading academics. Later this month we will be visiting farms in Snowdonia.

In addition to the position on future finance, our committee has reached an initial view on two further high-level principles. Both are intended to support evolutionary change, rather than a sudden shift in policy. First, we support a continuing shift in financial support, away from payments based on acreage and historical production, and towards agreed environmental and land management objectives. Second, we are particularly keen to support more marginal farms, including in upland areas. Helping poorer farmers especially should also help maintain a public and political consensus for farm support. However, development of policy principles such as these will be meaningless unless we secure the requisite future funding.

I hope that all parties in the Assembly can support our work and the call we make today on future funding. Subject to that, we can all make the best of the opportunities to deliver for the people and environment of Wales. Diolch.

Paul Davies (Conservative, Preseli Pembrokeshire)

Can I commend the Climate Change, Environment and Rural Affairs Committee for deciding to look at the future of agricultural and rural policies in Wales as one of its first inquiries? Of course, agriculture is the backbone of the rural economy and makes an enormous contribution to the Welsh economy as a whole. It’s essential, therefore, that these policies are examined especially in the light of Brexit. However, whilst it’s important that the Assembly scrutinises agricultural and rural policies, I’d like to understand a little bit more about the sheer scope of this inquiry and therefore the realistic outcomes we can expect throughout this process. So, perhaps the committee Chair can tell us more about the scope of this inquiry in his response here this afternoon.

Now, I’m sure that the Chair will agree with me that different policies require greater time commitments, given that some are more heavily embedded or are even reliant on EU legislation than others. So, can he tell us if there will be any flexibility in the committee’s timetabling to add additional meetings so that all aspects of the inquiry are fully discussed?

Of course, it’s important that the committee does all that it can to encourage stakeholders and rural communities to be involved in any inquiry, and I’m pleased that a workshop and a committee visit has already taken place, as he mentioned in his statement earlier on.

I understand that the consultation on this inquiry, which has already been issued, will end on 25 November, so can the committee Chair confirm how the committee will then respond to the replies received? Understandably, given the wide-ranging nature of this inquiry, how will it deal with important separate rural policy topics that it could receive as a result of this particular inquiry? Of course, within the agricultural brief alone, there’s enough policy scrutiny work to last this committee for a long time. So, it’s important that stakeholders are fully aware of each step of the committee’s inquiry process.

Members who’ve been here for some time will remember the Rural Development Sub-committee of the third Assembly, which was a permanent sub-committee to consider matters relevant to rural development and rural policies. Can the Chair tell us what his assessment of that committee was and has the current committee had any discussions regarding the possibility of resurrecting a similar sub-committee to look at rural development and rural policies on an ongoing basis, rather than just a one-off inquiry?

I very much agree with the committee’s view that while it may be advantageous to have, by mutual consent, a UK-wide framework for agriculture and rural development, and for environmental regulations as well, the committee must ensure that principal policy responsibly in these areas are repatriated to Wales from Brussels. I’m pleased to note from today’s statement that the committee will also press Governments at all levels to make sure that agriculture, rural affairs and the environment remain financial priorities, because, clearly, these are the areas that will be most tested as we exit the EU.

Dirprwy Lywydd, I’m very pleased to see that rural affairs and agricultural policy will be further scrutinised at an Assembly committee level. We are facing a time when a number of important decisions will need to be made in relation to Welsh agriculture and there will be a profound impact on rural Wales. We on this side of the Chamber welcome the Climate Change, Environment and Rural Affairs Committee inquiry into agriculture and rural policies, post Brexit. It’s vital that we involve all stakeholders in discussing ways to make our rural communities more prosperous and resilient in the months and years ahead.

So, can I thank the Chair of the committee for his statement today? I look forward to seeing this inquiry’s progress over the coming weeks. Thank you.

Mark Reckless (UKIP, South Wales East)

I’m grateful to the Member for his contribution and for his work for his party and others in these areas. As he says, agriculture is the backbone of our rural economy, but we’re conscious not to define agriculture too narrowly. Both the scope and type of agriculture has changed and continues to change, but also the scope in different areas of Wales to diversify from traditional agriculture and attract income through other provision is very significant. Also, in our request to the Cabinet Secretary for the Welsh Government to commit to protect spending in these areas, we wouldn’t want to be overly restrictive in the precise definition and boundaries around those areas, because we recognise that those change over time.

The scope of our inquiry has developed and I think it’s been one of the big challenges for the committee to determine what the proper scope of this inquiry is. I was in Scotland a week or two ago and spoke to what they call the convenor of the equivalent rural affairs committee in Scotland, and they’ve chosen, at least so far, not to undertake such an inquiry and were interested that we were doing so and in the challenges that we faced. I think also, along with other committees, we are feeling our way in terms of relations with the external affairs committee, ably chaired by David Rees here, and in our links and discussions with the Welsh Government and UK Government, to the extent that we are able to seek those.

What we’ve decide to do is for me to make this statement today, setting out the absolute centrality of the findings. Because I think, as we’ve continued, it’s become clear to us that we could spend an awful lot of time working out precise policy proposals and great ideas of what we’d like to do in the future, but actually without clearer commitment and confidence on funding, that work might be wasted. So, we’re very keen to put that very clear statement that we expect that level of funding to continue and we hope that the Assembly will be able to express that to the UK Government on a cross-party basis.

We’ve also put out there two further principles, which we discussed at a stakeholder workshop and thought that the initial response was reasonably positive, even though, of course, some farmers and some areas may get some disbenefit from those continuing trends. But, they are continuing trends that we think may help secure greater support for what we’re arguing for in terms of financing and the requirement for that money to continue.

We do have flexibility in the timetable. We’ve put out the call for evidence and responses to the consultation by 25 November. Our intention is to have evidence sessions in January, so if there are particular experts, interest groups or individuals who the Member thinks we should hear from, I’d be very interested to hear his submissions on that. I was aware of the sub-committee that met previously and have heard positive reports, particularly in terms of engaging stakeholders from its work. I don’t think I’m betraying any particular confidence by saying that the committee has had discussion around the potential use of sub-committees and rapporteurs. We haven’t, as yet, taken a decision to establish a sub-committee for this. I think our intention would be to report towards the end of the first quarter of next year, but depending on developments in the overall post-Brexit discussions, as well as within the agriculture and rural development sector, it’s an area we could very well return to, given its primacy and importance to the work of the committee.

Like the Member, I agree with the UK-wide framework. I do also just put there that the Welsh-UK discussions are also important, because there’s a different political context in Wales, where we voted for Brexit and where we have a Government that is coming to terms with that and is committed to continued membership of the UK rather than the different perspective of the Scottish Government. So, I don’t think we should make something that the Scottish Government might veto or where it might want to go a different way. I don’t think that should preclude our working with the UK Government, although obviously we want to explore the potential for a UK-wide framework to the extent that would be agreed by the Welsh Government and by this Assembly.

Simon Thomas (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

I thank the Chair for giving a fair summary of the committee’s proceedings to date. From the Plaid Cymru point of view, it is important that we do seize the opportunities now, in terms of the decision to leave the European Union, in order to ensure that we have the best possible terms for agriculture and rural areas, but also to ensure that opportunities are taken to tailor agricultural policy and rural support to Welsh needs. In that context, the Chair referred to the fact that the committee has already looked, for example, at less favoured areas—the uplands, particularly, in Wales—and it does lead us to the fact that it won’t be possible to develop policies, and certainly we won’t be able to ensure that funding is available for those areas unless we have a specifically Welsh framework. It’s very important that’s in place.

Of course, there is room for collaboration with the other nations of the UK—we need that in terms of animal health, animal welfare and such issues. But, does the Chair agree, therefore, that the only way that we can meet the needs of the committee is to ensure that there is freedom of opinion and freedom to make decisions in terms of agricultural policy in Wales, and that we are in a position to agree with other nations on the issues that we have in common, but that we also retain the freedom to make different decisions where that is to the benefit of rural communities?

The second question that arises as a result of this statement is: how will the committee look at other issues? The focus of the Chair’s statement—and indeed it’s true to say the focus of the committee’s proceedings—has been on funding. It’s true to say that a political pledge was made and therefore it’s appropriate that we try to hold people to account in terms of those pledges, but there is another process happening here. Trade is important, exports are important—90 per cent, as the Chair will know, of our agricultural produce is exported to the European Union at present—and the opportunity to take ownership of the good reputation of Welsh agriculture is very important, I think, and there’s an opportunity at one level there. So, does the Chair believe that we could look at how environmental legislative continuity and legislative continuity in terms of trade, and their interrelationship, could also be considered by the committee? Although that is another huge area, it’s extremely important that we don’t only look at funding, but that we also look at the broader context where our farmers trade with the rest of Europe and the rest of the world.

Mark Reckless (UKIP, South Wales East)

I thank the Member for his contribution, both just now and also in committee. Certainly, I’ve found his contributions very valuable, including in developing my own knowledge of the sector. I also appreciate his generally upbeat approach and focus on the opportunities that may come out of Brexit, and I think that those different positions—I’m impressed by the degree of focus on how do we adapt to the new situation and do what is best for our constituents. He mentions a desire to seek the best terms for agriculture, and specifically Welsh agriculture, both I assume in any future trade deal with the European Union in third country deals that may be struck, and indeed within the UK’s own internal market. I think he mentioned 90 per cent exports—the figure I think I remember from one of our research briefs was 60 or 70 per cent, but that may be on a UK basis rather than a Wales-specific basis. We talk in our committee and elsewhere sometimes about food miles and wouldn’t it be better if we consumed food closer to where it was produced, but in the case of much of what is produced in Wales, and particularly lamb, it simply would not be plausible for us to consume even a significant share of what is produced in Wales. The size of the agricultural sector is large for Wales, but one matter we must keep very close and central to our discussions with UK Government is it looms much less large at a UK level than it does for Wales. When we look at the exports, the proportion going to the European Union, the potential tariffs if we were subject to a common external tariff in these areas are higher and really much, much more significant, and could completely change the orientation of trade and production if that were not handled well. There may be opportunities out of that, but there are certainly also risks. I would share the desire to continue access to the single market and a desire not to have those tariffs on Welsh agriculture; I think I probably speak for all members of the committee and probably other Assembly Members in that.

Yes, we should have freedom for our agricultural policy, and I think that should be clearly recognised by Westminster. Nonetheless, I think there may be significant scope for agreement on UK policy frameworks or, if necessary, England-and-Wales frameworks, and so much of what is de jure devolved to us has, in practice, been done at the European Union level. We think of protection for particular types of agricultural goods and foods; if we’re outside the European Union, we have to really establish our own regime for that, and we have to have minimal standards for third country products under WTO rules and, perhaps, stronger standards for European products if that is agreed. But it’s going to be a very significant challenge for us in terms of legislative capacity as much as anything else. I think there will be a need for a common approach under some issues, such as animal health, where it’s difficult to see the advantages of a number of different approaches within these islands, although others may have different views on that.

In terms of environments, yes, I think there are strong arguments for legislative continuity. I think much of the European legislative framework has been adopted without close consideration at a domestic level, and I’ve often said to people from environmental organisations, I’ve slightly cautioned against always referring to European protection, because for some people who perhaps don’t share a positive view about the European Union and its laws, it may be better to make those arguments on the merits of the legislation or as international protection. I’m struck by how much of the European legislation has more international counterparts as well. But we need to look at those, I understand that, and I think there will be scope for us, committee and Members, to work to support environmental organisations and the Assembly as a whole, as we take on that very large task.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

I very much welcome this statement, because it’s a signal of early intent on the high principles from the committee. I particularly welcome the clear statement that the funding that is currently there and that was very much promised within the referendum by those campaigning to leave should actually be delivered, but not only that, that the policy that surrounds that should actually be made in Wales and decided in Wales, as befits a legislature where all those competences are, indeed, devolved to us now. So, we shouldn’t in any way retrench into a situation where, whatever shape the Brexit finally takes, on the framework of the EU, as it is passed down to a UK level, we suddenly find that we’ve lost competences. It has to be here that agricultural policy, rural development policy, environmental policy, et cetera, et cetera, should actually be decided.

But we do need that funding, and I think the Chairman is right in making that very clear point that the funding is key to this. It must be for the Welsh Government, I have to say, to actually decide how to utilise that funding, or which way to cut, dice and splice it. Because it’s interesting that, within the statement as well, the Chairman rightly says that—he doesn't actually refer to the point that has been made to us previously, but I know he’ll have paid regard to it, where people have said, ‘This isn’t a blank sheet; this is an issue of transition.’ It’s not as if we’re setting up a whole new ball game here. We are working within rules and there are other countries that will have different versions of support for their farming community. It isn’t a blank sheet.

However, there is an opportunity for some more radical thinking, and some of that radical thinking may indeed include thinking around how you use public money to actually deliver wider public goods. Amongst those public goods, by the way, are the production of good, sustainable food and viable rural communities with small and medium-scale farms. But also amongst those public goods are flood alleviation, how we deal with the peat bogs on top of the moors, and biodiversity. How do we maintain the absolutely invaluable ecosystem services that we have and all of that as well? This does give us an opportunity to think differently and think radically, but we must—as the point has been made to us, as well—think about the fact that we are not going from a blank sheet. Whatever happens in England, or in Ireland, funnily enough, let alone in other European countries, we need to keep an eye to that in how we take forward this. But funding is key, and policy freedom in Wales is key as well.

There’s just one final point I wanted to make. We often talk about rural communities within this place—and I was used to this in Westminster as well, thinking about places on the north York moors or the East Anglian farmers, or somewhere in Ceredigion, beautiful as it is—but it’s also an issue that affects the south Wales valleys and many other places. Forty per cent of my constituency is upland hill farming—always has been. It’s essential for Wales, in particular, that we get this right, and I very much welcome the high-level statement by the chairman here. Even though we’re still in discussions—we’re still talking with many people out there—the high-level principle of saying, ‘The funding that was promised must come to Wales’ has got to be delivered on, and then it’s got to be for Wales and the Cabinet Secretary in front of us to actually decide, in concert with Assembly Members here, what the policy should be and how we should actually use that funding to deliver those wider benefits that are out there. That’s the thing I would end up in saying. Whilst this is very much focusing, quite rightly, on farming and food production and so on, it is also looking as those wider imperatives, critical that they are, of biodiversity, ecosystem services and sustainable rural communities. They all go hand in hand. They can all be delivered together. We are stewards of this, going forward, not masters of this, and we need to look after these rural communities.

Mark Reckless (UKIP, South Wales East)

I’m very grateful to Huw Irranca-Davies for that contribution. You mentioned at the beginning funding being promised, and I mentioned that some ‘leave’ campaigners did give assurances—and I mentioned two of those who are now in very senior and relevant levels in the UK Government. I recognised, during the campaign, that it was a campaign and that I wasn’t speaking for any Government on the matter. I sought to be careful in what I said in light of that. I think other ‘leave’ campaigners may also have considered that. But I remember—and I see Andrew R.T. Davies here, and I think there were a number of exchanges with the First Minister in the run-up to that referendum, where he was pressed to give assurances as to the continuation of funding.

I also remember other occasions. I shall not name the Member, but a particular Member on the Government side, when I was debating in front of farmers, was suggesting to the farmers that they should vote ‘remain’ because, if they didn’t, their funding could be at risk, and they shouldn’t assume that agriculture and rural development would be at the top of the list of priorities for a Welsh Government with a lot of other pressures on its time, and perhaps not traditionally so much support in that community. But what I want to do today, with this statement, is to draw Members from all parties together behind what I think is a common objective. I think we’re in a political fight for this. I think we can achieve this. But I think if we work together—yes, to hold ‘leave’ campaigners in Government to specific assurances given, but also to explain the unique rural economy that we have in Wales—and I mentioned the linguistic element, which I think is probably not something many policy makers in London will give great consideration or even necessarily be aware of when these matters cross their desks. If we were to go from the EU level of finance to a Barnettised level of finance, the impact on those communities in terms of the likely depopulation and change to the landscape and breaking up of cultural, social and linguistic communities that that would lead to would really be very, very severe. I feel that strongly, as I know do many Members in this Chamber, whichever side of the debate they were on at the referendum.

The Member also mentioned wanting legislation made in Wales. I agree with his sentiments but he, as I, will be aware of the sheer complexity of the legislative base. I’ve heard it suggested that there are something like 5,000 legal instruments affecting the CAP. This Assembly and the Welsh Government will have many different calls on their time, as does our committee, and I think that the challenge is to find what are the essential elements, and we’re trying to identify key principles that we want to particularly apply in Wales. I think we need, as a committee and as an Assembly, to focus our time on those areas where we can really make a difference if we seek to change the legislative framework or adjust it in any way from that which has grown up within the CAP. Yes, the Welsh Government should have control of that money, but I do think that a statement as to continuing that level of support for these areas would assist us in making arguments to UK Ministers and others to keep that funding. The Member also mentioned that, I think, his constituency has 40 per cent upland hill farming. When we talk about more marginal farms, yes, that includes the uplands. But, particularly in areas such as his, but also across much of south-east Wales, there’s not necessarily a division between lowland and upland farming. There are many farms that will have part of the farm in the valley and part further up. I agree with him in terms of what he says about biodiversity and sustainability. It’s very important that we all focus on those, and there are times when there are hard trade-offs in terms of money and other objectives, but he is right to keep those areas at the forefront of our minds.

Neil Hamilton (UKIP, Mid and West Wales)

I congratulate my friend Mark Reckless on the impressive way in which he chairs the committee and the way he has delivered his statement today. Also, I would like to commend the committee for the serious job of work that all members of it are doing. I’m not normally associated with the word ‘consensus’ very much, but I am delighted to hear that the committee has arrived at a broad consensus approach, and I hope that that will extend beyond the confines of the committee and into the Assembly as a whole. Agricultural policy in the context of leaving the EU is vitally important. It has been overwhelmingly dominant in EU spending ever since we joined back in 1973. It is right, therefore, that it should have paramount importance in policy development in Wales, to which the freedom is now given to develop an agricultural policy to suit our own needs, specifically for our own nation. I am pleased to hear what Simon Thomas said in his response to the statement earlier on, and the positive way in which he approaches the opportunities that now lie before us. It is, of course, vitally important that the funding of agriculture in Wales is preserved as it is handed down to us from the EU. I appreciate, as Huw Irranca-Davies said, that this isn’t something that is set in stone for all time. But, at least for a significant process of transition, stability does depend upon people knowing that what they have been used to can be relied upon. Bearing in mind that we joined the Common Market, as we then called it, before the Barnett formula was invented, the obligations for funding agriculture predate that formula. For the time being, at any rate, it is essential that what is spent on farming in Wales is protected. I’ve strongly supported the First Minister and the Welsh Government’s view that the UK Government should guarantee every penny of funding that the EU currently spends in Wales. I think the corollary of that argument is that the Welsh Government itself must now step up to the plate and guarantee, for a significant transitional period, the level of funding that will be handed down to it by the UK Government in respect of agriculture, if that is what, in effect, happens in due course.

I’m pleased at the emphasis that has been put upon the support for marginal farming, and in particular for the uplands. We have to recognise the political reality in which we all operate—that the agricultural community is a small proportion of the total population, and we depend upon the consent of urban populations for the degree of subsidy that rural areas receive. One of the ways in which we can maximise the potential of that is treating farmers as custodians of the countryside as much as the growers of food. Although I do believe that food security is an important element as well, we still have a very substantial deficit in food production in this country. We have massive imports, and that, in the context of the negotiations coming up with the EU as to our future relationship, is a weapon that we should use to the full. In our own hands, we have a £10 billion-a-year deficit with the EU on food and drink. Therefore, they have every interest in maintaining the existing access to the single market. There is also the important element, which has been mentioned so far, of future trading opportunities between Britain and the EU, and Wales and the EU in particular. Simon Thomas was right to point out the dependence of Welsh farming upon exports, and this is a challenge for the future, undoubtedly, particularly for producers of lamb. We have to recognise that the world doesn’t stand still and countries like New Zealand have faced huge challenges in the past—they abolished all their agricultural support overnight—and yet agriculture in New Zealand thrived. Maybe there are lessons that we can learn from such experiences in the committee as well—not that that’s something that I’m recommending, but, nevertheless, the response to such shocks does offer opportunities for us to learn as to how we can cope with them. Trade promotion is another important element of this as well, where we’ve got greater freedoms as well.

The last point that I will make is that it’s not only agricultural policy that is devolved to Wales, but also environmental policy, and this gives us the opportunity to look at the current regulatory regime and to see whether, in certain instances, it is disproportionate in the costs that it imposes upon farmers relative to the public benefits that are supposed to derive from it in other areas. Given the remoteness of Brussels and the opacity of the way in which decisions are made there, and the importance of lobbying groups in the making of public policy, and the unaccountability of the people who take the important decisions, I think this gives us a huge opportunity in Wales now to reconstruct—over a substantial period of time, no doubt, because the job is huge, as my friend has pointed out—in that it gives us the opportunity to have a look at agriculture in the round, both the costs regime as well as the trading regime. Because, ultimately, all of this affects the viability of farmers and the life in the countryside of many others who depend for their livelihoods upon them.

So, I congratulate my friend, as the chairman of the committee, once again, and the Members who serve under him, and I look forward to further reports in future.

Mark Reckless (UKIP, South Wales East)

I thank my group leader and party’s agricultural spokesperson for his contribution. He rightly observes that the common agricultural policy has been dominant in EU spending since, and indeed before, we joined in 1973. He’ll also be aware that that proportion of spending has come down over that time from near 90 per cent to around a half in more recent times. We talk about wanting to maintain every penny of funding, and we make this call that we are today to the UK Government in that respect. But I think we also do need to understand that there are some complexities around these issues. The overall trend in spending, or certainly the push of UK policy in CAP negotiations, has been towards a reduction and continuing fall in the share of the EU budget on this area, and, if we’d stayed within the European Union, it’s possible that a UK Government might have continued that pitch. There’s also the issue of are we talking about maintaining spending in sterling or in euro terms. Many farmers will be shortly receiving, perhaps, a significant increase in payments, at least in sterling terms, although they’ll of course be worried about the sustainability and likely future for those payments. We also have to consider what the definition is of the area of agriculture of the CAP or a broader rural development and land management policy.

I think there is also scope for improvements and opportunities in taking powers in this area within Wales. Certainly, farmers I speak to have a lot of concerns about the degree of regulation and would question whether all the activities they are required to do actually make economic sense or sense in terms of their objectives. I know the Cabinet Secretary has had similar conversations with farmers, and, at least in the near term, doesn’t hold out huge prospects for a great deregulatory bonfire. I think, from those who criticise the degree of regulation, what we really need are specific examples of regulations that should be repealed, or things that could be done in a better or more proportionate way, and I think we’d be grateful for input from the Member and others on that.

He mentions trading opportunities—yes, there are trading opportunities. The example of New Zealand is a very stark one, and, yes, I think, in a sense, agriculture in New Zealand is successful currently, but it’s a very different type of agriculture than what there was before 1984, and, on those who were in involved in the mid 1980s in production, I think many farmers suffered very severely from those changes, and moving from one system to another will not be easy and would, I think, mean a severe loss of employment and potentially associated depopulation in our rural areas.

Overall, though, I’m very grateful to the Member and others for the contributions we’ve had, and I think that we will all work together in pushing these arguments and doing the best we can for Wales in this sector, as in others.

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Thank you. I have two more Members who wish to speak on this statement, so can I ask for a concise question, and a concise answer from the Chair, and we’ll get both of you in. Jenny Rathbone.

Jenny Rathbone (Labour, Cardiff Central)

I just wanted to respond to Paul Davies, really, to say that this is not just a rural affairs matter. My constituents in an urban constituency are just as concerned about the quality and the cost of food as any other residents are, so I think that it’s really important that we address this issue in a timely fashion, because farmers who voted to leave didn’t realise that they were potentially going to lose 80 per cent of their income. I think one of the issues that we do need to be considering in this evolution, not revolution, approach that we’re taking is that Brexit is going to make a lot of vegetables more expensive, because nearly half the vegetables we consume are imported. And we’ve already heard evidence—

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Are you coming to a question, please?

Jenny Rathbone (Labour, Cardiff Central)

My question, really, is: how are we going to turn that corner, given that, at the moment, we only grow vegetables on 617 hectares of land, which is 0.4 per cent of agricultural land, hardly any of which is in receipt of pillar 1 payments. Many of the people who are involved in the labour-intensive activity around horticulture are people whose future in the country is unclear, because they’re European migrants. So, what does the Chair of the committee think we are going to be able to do to address the food security issues that are posed here, as well as the health of the nation and the future employment of people in Wales?

Mark Reckless (UKIP, South Wales East)

I thank the Member for her contribution. She ably represents her urban constituents, and brings that perspective to the committee deliberations. In terms of horticulture, it’s not an area that has traditionally been within the CAP, although the free trade framework within the EU sees us have very substantial imports, particularly, I believe, from Denmark and, especially, the Netherlands. Yes, if it were harder for labour to come into the country to work in those areas, there would be pressure to increase wages to try and bring others in, and I recognise the challenges about that. The impact of the pound is also likely to be a factor. I think probably what Welsh producers will want to do is to focus particularly on value-added and higher-end products—the organic products or ones where they can have a supply chain that benefits from and markets the concept of having vegetables locally produced, since I know many of the Member’s constituents, as will our own, will share her view, and would welcome being able to purchase more, if not all of their produce from local quality providers.

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

And finally, Vikki Howells.

Vikki Howells (Labour, Cynon Valley)

Diolch, Ddirprwy Lywydd. Two questions and I’ll try to be concise, Chair. I’d like to thank you for the statement you’ve made today, as one of the members of the committee myself, and I welcome the comments regarding looking at the broader context of farming and the role of the rural economy, particularly with regard to the Welsh language as well. So, firstly, my question is: how can we integrate this broader approach into our inquiry, so that we take a truly multifaceted approach, which extends beyond purely looking at the financial implications of agriculture as a narrow concept? Secondly, after meeting lots of farmers, including young farmers within my constituency, there are definitely concerns around the skills agenda. As the proportion of people working in agriculture in Wales is over three times that of the rest of the UK, how can we ensure that the skills agenda to make sure that the next generation of farmers wants to go into the industry and stay there—how can we ensure that that actually underpins our inquiry and is placed at the heart of future policy?

Mark Reckless (UKIP, South Wales East)

I think for the broader context, we will have an opportunity to take a more cross-cutting approach to agriculture in rural development, because of the policy freedoms we would have post Brexit. I do, again, emphasise, though, that it is going to be quite time-consuming and demanding for members of our committee, but also potentially for the Assembly as a whole, in developing the legal framework and pressing our priorities, which we identify in these areas. We will, I think, come with our report, perhaps in March next year, although we as a committee are keeping open what the potential follow-up will be and whether that’s an interim report or whether we begin a new inquiry. I know we are looking at the food industry more generally, because a number of us want to integrate that approach into what we do with agriculture and rural development.

The Member ably raises the skills agenda. I think one barrier to people coming into the sector is, of course, the price of land, and the potential decoupling of support or what arrangements there might be post Brexit that could have implications for that. I have been quite struck, particularly on our visit to west Wales, that for many families farming is in their blood and they feel an obligation to continue farming that land. So, even if they’re economically on the edge, they may continue doing that, even to the extent of taking on loans and perhaps, down the road, risking losing that land because they feel that is what they do and that’s their obligation to their forebears, to their family and to that landscape. And I think, with our focus on the more marginal areas, I’d like to use what funding we do have with a view to supporting those people and helping to sustain those communities, and I look forward to our committee continuing to work towards those objectives.

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Thank you very much.

7. 5. Debate by Individual Members under Standing Order 11.21(iv): the ‘State of Nature 2016 Wales’ Report

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

We move on to the next item on today’s agenda, which is a debate by individual Members under Standing Order 11.21 on the state of nature report, and I call on Simon Thomas to move the motion. Simon.