Senedd Cymru (Welsh Parliament), 22 November 2016

263 contributions from 48 members. The official report.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Order. I call the National Assembly to order.

1. 1. Questions to the First Minister

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The first item on our agenda this afternoon is questions to the First Minister, and the first question, Leanne Wood.

Leanne Wood (Plaid Cymru, Rhondda)

1. Will the First Minister make a statement about the value of overseas exports to the Welsh economy? OAQ(5)0280(FM)

Carwyn Jones (Labour, Bridgend)

Increasing the value of exports and the number of exporters in Wales have both been central pillars of our economic strategy for some time. We know that trade is a key driver of economic growth, which, in turn, boosts incomes.

Leanne Wood (Plaid Cymru, Rhondda)

The Welsh Government is organising a subsidised trade mission to Saudi Arabia in March of next year, and I’m sure I don’t need to remind Members that Saudi Arabia is a place where people are executed for crimes, such as speaking out against the regime. With the help of UK exports, they’re also waging a brutal war against Yemen, which has claimed the lives of thousands, and the blockade of Yemen has caused a humanitarian crisis. Amid all of this brutality, is it appropriate to cosy up to Saudi Arabia? Don’t you think that you should be taking a stand on this question? And given the news today that arms sold to Saudi have ended up in the arms of ISIS fighters, can you reassure us today that this mission has nothing whatsoever to do with the defence or the arms industry?

Carwyn Jones (Labour, Bridgend)

Well, trade missions are all-encompassing. It’s right to say that we do trade with companies whose values we would not share. There are issues with a number of countries around the world, where we would prefer it if their systems were more open, and their systems were closer to ours. But I believe that, through trading with these countries, it’s possible to show that there is a way of government that is different and, to my mind, better than the ones that exist in their countries. It’s a matter for them, of course, how they govern themselves, but, nevertheless, we are guided by the Foreign and Commonwealth Office as to whether it’s appropriate to have trade links with countries or not.

Rhianon Passmore (Labour, Islwyn)

First Minister, Wales is a small but passionate country that punches above its weight. I note that the value of exports for Wales for the year up to and including June 2016 was £12.1 billion, with exports to the European Union accounting for almost 40 per cent of Welsh exports. The First Minister is a passionate and successful advocate of selling Wales to the world. So, what future plans have the Welsh Government put in place to ensure that Welsh goods and services can continue to be exported to the world?

Carwyn Jones (Labour, Bridgend)

We’re in the process of planning our overseas activity for 2016-17. That programme will include a balance of traditional markets that we need to maintain, and seeking new markets. And there will be six trade missions that will take place over the next six months.

Russell George (Conservative, Montgomeryshire)

First Minister, the Welsh business barometer, from the South Wales Chamber of Commerce report, said the number of small and medium-sized enterprises that were reporting a growth in export sales and orders has fallen in the third quarter of 2016. My own postbag is growing with small businesses contacting me concerned about the potential increase in their business rates. Will you consider increasing the funding that you’ve put in place for support with the transition, because, clearly, that would help a lot of small businesses who remain very uncertain about how their business rates are going to be after 2017?

Carwyn Jones (Labour, Bridgend)

Well, we’ll be able to give full consideration to that issue once we know what the Chancellor has announced in his autumn statement. If he is generous, then so, of course, can we be.

Neil Hamilton (UKIP, Mid and West Wales)

Can I commend the First Minister on his response to the first question today, whilst agreeing with the leader of Plaid Cymru’s strictures upon the activities of the Saudi Government in Yemen? Nevertheless, it is vitally important to Wales that we improve our trade links with Saudi Arabia. It’s a small amount of trade—£240 million in exports last year—but, nevertheless, that’s very important. But trade with the rest of the world, outside the EU, is going to become of growing importance to us as a nation. Rhianon Passmore referred to the fact that 40 per cent of our exports go to the EU; it was 60 per cent 10 years ago—the position vis-à-vis Wales and the rest of the world has reversed. So, will the First Minister agree that it’s vitally important that we have trade missions to the rest of the world, to capitalise upon this growing imbalance?

Carwyn Jones (Labour, Bridgend)

Well, we do that. I mean, there will be trade missions to the US and to the United Arab Emirates, which is a major export market for us. We must guard against a scenario, however, where we have barriers in place in terms of accessing the European market and the American market. I am totally unconvinced that we will see a free trade deal with the US that will do anything other than benefit the US. That’s exactly what the President-elect, Trump, was elected to do. So, I don’t share the optimism that some have that, somehow, the UK will be in a privileged position with regard to the US. Nevertheless, we continue to run our trade missions to look at our important markets, to conserve those, and also, of course, to look for new ones.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Question 2 [OAQ(5)0273(FM)] was withdrawn.

Hefin David (Labour, Caerphilly)

3. Will the First Minister provide and update on the implementation of 'A Curriculum for Wales—A Curriculum for Life'? OAQ(5)0286(FM)

Carwyn Jones (Labour, Bridgend)

Yes. As set out in ‘A Curriculum for Wales’, the digital competence framework was made available to schools and settings on 1 September, and development of the wider curriculum and assessment arrangements is on track to be available from September 2018, to support learning and teaching from September 2021.

Hefin David (Labour, Caerphilly)

With that in mind, would the First Minister, in preparation for the new curriculum, answer how the Welsh Government will ensure that all teachers and teaching assistants have an understanding of appropriate pedagogy associated with the inclusive classroom?

Carwyn Jones (Labour, Bridgend)

We are committed to creating an inclusive education system for all learners, and delivery of that reform can only happen if we have such a system and a workforce that embraces inclusive education and delivers for every learner in every classroom. So, we will work with the teaching profession, of course, to make sure that the right level of support and training is available to them to ensure that that becomes a reality.

Darren Millar (Conservative, Clwyd West)

First Minister, one of the features of your Government is that very good schools, which are delivering the national curriculum, have been closing across the country, particularly in rural parts of Wales. Now, I note that there is additional assistance, which is on the way, and some changes in terms of the way that local authorities will have to think about their schools in the future. But what will you say to people in my constituency who are supporters of Ysgol Llanbedr, which is threatened with closure for the second time, and will you intervene personally to secure the future of that school, which has growing numbers of pupils, as parents are putting their confidence in the ability of that school to deliver for their children?

Carwyn Jones (Labour, Bridgend)

The Member knows full well that it’s a local authority decision, and he should direct his anger at the local authority and not at Welsh Government. He knows full well that Welsh Government only intervenes under certain circumstances. I wonder if he has made those representations to the local authority; I’m sure his constituents would want to find out. But, generally, as the education Secretary has already announced, we are looking at ways to help and support rural schools, and looking at new models in order to enable them to deliver better and to stay open in the future—some of them—and I suggest that he goes to his local authority and makes such suggestions to them.

Llyr Gruffydd (Plaid Cymru, North Wales)

One of the central elements of curriculum reform, of course, is the role of the innovative schools, but concern is being increasingly expressed that schools that aren’t within that category feel excluded. The teachers’ unions have said that the situation where the new arrangements are being built by the profession for the profession is a pipe dream, and even the Education Workforce Council has said that we are now facing a two-tier situation, where some feel that they are inside the system and some feel that they are outside. What is your Government doing to ensure that everyone feels ownership of the new curriculum in order to ensure that it is delivered in a timely manner?

Carwyn Jones (Labour, Bridgend)

Well, of course, we know that it’s vital to ensure that we have an effective manner of working with the profession. We are dealing with training, for example, but we don’t deal with terms and conditions and pay, and that will change in the future. There is a kind of artificial distinction between teacher training and remunerating teachers, in my view. Of course, by doing that, it would be easier for us to work with the profession, ultimately, to get a comprehensive package for the profession.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Questions now from the party leaders. Leader of the Welsh Conservatives, Andrew R.T. Davies.

Andrew RT Davies (Conservative, South Wales Central)

Thank you, Presiding Officer. First Minister, the Circuit of Wales offers a huge potential to regenerate a very poor part of Wales, and offer opportunities, both in regeneration terms and job prospects for the Blaenau Gwent and south Wales area—in fact, the whole of Wales—transforming its image into being a high-value destination for tourists and the engineering industry. But, sadly, the Heads of the Valleys company that is promoting this project has been suffering really bad headlines of late, and there’s been a slow, slow drip effect—[Interruption.] There’s been a slow, slow drip effect of evidence to point that they really aren’t the best partners to actually deliver this project. Do you have confidence in the leadership of the company to deliver the Circuit of Wales project?

Carwyn Jones (Labour, Bridgend)

I have to say to the leader of the Welsh Conservatives that it’s a member of his party that has provided that drip, drip of criticism—not him, I accept, but certainly a member of his party. Do we have confidence in the company? That’s a matter for them, of course. We have to make sure that we are prudent in terms of public money being made accessible, and we’ve done just that, to make sure that any project is only financed if there’s a fair division of risk between the private and public sectors, and that is not the situation here.

Andrew RT Davies (Conservative, South Wales Central)

First Minister, I noticed you didn’t say you had confidence. You talked at length that there is potential within the project, but freedom of information requests from your Government, which I hope you’re aware of, from the director general of the department for the economy, James Price, clearly show that civil servants raised concerns with Ministers over the plans for the Heads of the Valleys Development Company, owned by Michael Carrick, to pay Aventa Capital Partners Ltd—100 per cent owned by Michael Carrick—almost £1 million in consultancy fees, effectively paying themselves to advise themselves. Now, that clearly cannot be right especially if there hasn’t been a robust tendering process, and, indeed, when the civil servants themselves, the director general, is offering such advice to Ministers. Why would Ministers go against that advice and approve such a transaction?

Carwyn Jones (Labour, Bridgend)

Well, that’s a matter for the Minister who was in place at that time, who is no longer a Member of this Assembly. What I can say, as far as this Government is concerned, is that we will seek to ensure, as she did, that there is prudence in terms of money that’s accessed from the public purse. And that’s why, despite criticism from his party and others in this Chamber, we didn’t release the money for the project to proceed some months ago, on the basis that we were not convinced that the project was robust enough in terms of the sharing of risk for the project to proceed with public money.

Andrew RT Davies (Conservative, South Wales Central)

Well, First Minister, public money has gone to this company, as I’ve highlighted—£1 million just on consultancy fees, £9 million in total, with bank loan guarantees paid by the Welsh Government. And we do know of other things that have been paid: there’s a loss-making race at Silverstone; £35,000 for gardening and also the purchasing of a motorbike company, FTR Moto, for £400,000, that has gone bankrupt. It’s hardly a success story, when the evidence is clearly pointing that civil servants were warning Ministers about making this money available and wanting more information. We saw last week that the governance chairman, Lord Kinnock, of the company, was lobbying excessively, I would suggest, with at least five or six calls to the leader of Blaenau Gwent council, as well as using House of Lords notepaper to actually write letters on to make the point that he wanted to make. That cannot be acceptable and now I have invoices here—[Interruption.]—invoices here—[Interruption.]—invoices here that show at least £750 paid for an event in north Wales to the Labour Party, £2,400 again to the Labour Party, and £960 paid to the Labour Party—three different invoices paid by Aventa and Michael Carrick, to have access to Welsh Government Ministers, I would suggest. Are you confident that there has been the proper transparency and, above all, the assurances when the initial £9 million was being handed over, because, as I said in my opening remarks this project does offer great opportunity but it is the execution—? [Interruption.] And the company that has been brought forward to promote this company clearly has evidence to the contrary of having the—[Inaudible.]

Carwyn Jones (Labour, Bridgend)

He can’t have his cake and eat it. He can’t say, on the one hand, ‘This is a good project’ and on the other hand say, ‘Well, this project shouldn’t have been financed in its initial stages.’ If he’s suggesting that, in some way, it was possible for the company to sponsor events in order to get the decision they wanted—well, they didn’t, did they? The whole point was that if it was the case that somehow influence could be bought, they would have had the funding for the Circuit of Wales by now, but that’s not the situation that occurred. We took the decision that we wished to—. I mean, he talks about £9 million. If he could only see the money that’s wasted by his Government in Westminster. The amount of money that’s hosed away—hosed away—on NHS reorganisations that don’t happen, hosed away on rail privatisation—we could go on. The reality is that we as a Government took the view that initial finance—[Interruption.] If he listened, he’d learn. As a Government we will provide amounts of money for businesses in order to take them to the next stage of business development and a project in terms of development. But there comes a point when it’s absolutely right to say to any business, ‘We will not finance the project unless you find enough private backing that will take the project ahead without there being 100 per cent guarantee from the public sector.’ That is something that we were not prepared to do and that represents value for money for the taxpayer.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Plaid Cymru leader, Leanne Wood.

Leanne Wood (Plaid Cymru, Rhondda)

Diolch, Lywydd. Will the First Minister make a statement on the proposed takeover of Dee Valley Water by Severn Trent Water?

Carwyn Jones (Labour, Bridgend)

This is a matter of concern. It’s been raised by Members. The concern is, of course, that it will reduce consumer choice. It will see increased prices, and this is something that, to my mind, would not be acceptable for the people of Wales. I do not believe that that people would accept higher prices for their water when they can see the reservoirs in their locality that provide that water.

Leanne Wood (Plaid Cymru, Rhondda)

Thank you for that answer, First Minister. There are fears that the company’s strong Welsh identity and interest in this country could be lost with this takeover. Dee Valley Water works with 80 local suppliers, and there are real concerns amongst the workforce about job security. The fear is that centralisation will lead to fewer local jobs. Can you tell us, First Minister, what contact you’ve had with the parties involved?

Carwyn Jones (Labour, Bridgend)

I know that the Minister is looking at this very carefully. She has received representations, I know, from constituency members and concern will be expressed from us as a Government along the lines that I’ve just mentioned.

Leanne Wood (Plaid Cymru, Rhondda)

First Minister, I’m surprised that you can’t even tell me that you’ve written a few letters about this, given the concerns. Perhaps today’s question will push you into some kind of action. This proposed takeover raises serious questions about the future of our natural resources. Those resources should be benefiting the people in this country, but they are being bought and sold as we speak. Has the First Minister considered what impact this takeover bid could have on the water industry in Wales, bearing in mind that the competitive model being pushed in England has been rejected here? And will you join me in making an absolutely clear statement today that Welsh water services should be run from Wales, and not from Coventry for a bunch of multinational shareholders?

Carwyn Jones (Labour, Bridgend)

We’ve been absolutely clear that we want to see powers over water devolved. That has been conceded by the UK Government. It was always a matter of great regret—and that’s probably saying it mildly—to me that the people of Wales did not have control over one of their major natural resources. That will change in 2018. I very much welcome that. That will give us the opportunity to look at how that resource can be developed as far as the people of Wales are concerned. But until that concession was made by the UK Government, we were still in a position where we did not have control over our water. That I welcome, and that gives us the opportunity to avoid situations like this occurring in the future.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The leader of the UKIP group, Neil Hamilton.

Neil Hamilton (UKIP, Mid and West Wales)

Diolch, Lywydd. In his evidence to the Assembly’s Committee for the Scrutiny of the First Minister last week, the First Minister asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer to do something about energy prices in the autumn statement in order to help the steel industry in Wales, something which I wholly support him in. He pointed out that energy prices in Britain are 46 per cent higher than in some other places in Europe. Does he not agree that one of the principal reasons for that is the Climate Change Act 2008, passed by the then Labour Government, which has committed Britain uniquely in the world to a legally binding obligation of cutting carbon emissions by 80 per cent by 2050, and as a result of which we are actually placing a millstone around the necks of people like British steelmakers, who are placed at a competitive disadvantage with countries like Germany?

Carwyn Jones (Labour, Bridgend)

No. The issues is this: energy prices in Germany, for example, are around 20 per cent cheaper; in Spain, they’re 37 per cent cheaper. It’s nothing to do with renewables, because the amount of renewables that feed into their national grids is roughly the same in percentage terms as ours, if not more. It’s simply to do with the obscurity of the market within Great Britain and the fact that discounts are not available for energy-intensive industries. We have to look at nuclear, yes, but we also have to look at harnessing the power of the tide that sits not far from this building, and will always be there, rather than rely on imported coal, which I know is something that he has suggested in weeks gone by.

Neil Hamilton (UKIP, Mid and West Wales)

But Germany has been opening new coal-fired power stations; in fact, 11 GW of capacity in the last five years, which is equivalent to 15 per cent of the entire electricity output of Germany. Sigmar Gabriel, who is the Vice-chancellor of Germany and is the chairman of the German social democratic party, and is their energy Minister, has said that Germany will not be phasing out brown coal-fired power stations before 2040, as the Government looks for ways to ensure minimisation of job losses in coal regions. So, the German Government is doing what it can to minimise job losses in its coal regions at the expense of British steelmakers.

Carwyn Jones (Labour, Bridgend)

I’m going to pause for a second at the irony of that, and at the fact that in the 1980s—again he returns to this point—

Neil Hamilton (UKIP, Mid and West Wales)

Oh, here we go again.

Carwyn Jones (Labour, Bridgend)

[Continues.]—he sat there while thousands upon thousands—30,000 jobs—were lost in the mining industry in Wales. And now he is saying that we’re not doing enough to protect coal jobs. The reality is that if we were to have more coal-fired power stations, we would have to import the coal. Germany is in a difficult position because it relies heavily on Russia for the gas that it has to import, and given the current state of world affairs, that is an uncomfortable situation for Germany to be in. I do not think, in terms of energy security for Britain, that importing more of our energy in the form of coal is the way forward.

Neil Hamilton (UKIP, Mid and West Wales)

We are proposing to close down existing coal-fired capacity in Britain, which is the cheapest form of power generation. That doesn’t seem to me to be an economically sensible or commercially sensible thing to do. We have another climate change conference in Marrakech coming up—[Interruption.]—well, it was last week—where a lot of hot air was expended.

Developing countries like India and China are not planning to reduce their carbon dioxide emissions at all. In fact, they’re increasing their coal-fired generating capacity. China proposes to double its coal-fired capacity within 15 years and India promises to treble its output of carbon dioxide emissions. Isn’t Britain, generally, and Wales in particular, placing itself at a vast competitive disadvantage by forcing up energy prices, which are the lifeblood of industries like the steelmakers of Wales?

Carwyn Jones (Labour, Bridgend)

There are plenty of other countries that do not rely on coal where energy prices are lower. Spain is one example of that, where coal is not a major factor in terms of energy production. What he’s suggesting—. He’s wrong about China. China is moving—. Coal is yesterday’s technology. Apart from in America, people are not looking to build more and more coal-fired power stations—

Neil Hamilton (UKIP, Mid and West Wales)

They’re building one a week.

Carwyn Jones (Labour, Bridgend)

[Continues.]—as a matter of energy policy. China has a problem with pollution. It knows it; it sees the smog in Beijing, it sees the smog in its major cities and it knows its population will not put up with that. What he’s suggesting, if he thinks about it, is, first of all, we should have more air pollution so that people find that that is a problem for their health. Secondly, we should import coal. That means (a) the price of coal is increasing and that means more cost, and (b) less energy security, as far as Britain is concerned, which I cannot agree with him on. And, of course, what he is saying, in effect, is that we should look to build more coal-fired power stations. Well, good luck to him on that. If he wants to see people being angry and annoyed, putting a coal-fired power station next to them is a sure-fire way—pardon the pun—of doing that. No, I can’t agree with him. I don’t accept that renewable energy—energy that is there; tidal energy that is there will always be there as long as the moon is there, and hasn’t yet been properly harnessed—that technology, should not be developed for the future energy needs of Wales, rather than relying on fossil fuels that have to be imported. I cannot see how that is a secure energy policy for the future.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

4. Has the First Minister considered the potential of the 'Bridgend Hub' transport proposal as part of the phased roll-out of the South Wales Metro? OAQ(5)0276(FM)

Carwyn Jones (Labour, Bridgend)

It has huge potential and we know that integration of public transport is an important aim of the south Wales metro. The next phase of metro development will be focused on the core Valleys lines. Proposals such as the hub will be considered in future phases.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

I very much welcome that response and I know that funding for the successive phases of the roll-out is now a little bit more precarious, post Brexit. But it does provide some exciting potential here, the hub within Bridgend, which is still sitting along that area, which is the sixth biggest manufacturing area and employment area within the UK as well. It has enormous potential. If we’re to seize the benefits of a genuine south Wales metro, we have to push it up the Valleys and also westwards as well. So, perhaps, if he’ll take his hat off as First Minister and come down with me and meet with Councillor Huw David, the new leader of Labour-controlled Bridgend authority, we’ll sit down and discuss it together over a cup of tea.

Carwyn Jones (Labour, Bridgend)

I will pass that message on to the AM for Bridgend. [Laughter.] He is right; for Bridgend railway station, like so many others, it’s not practical for buses to go there and that’s part of the problem. Originally, there was a plan to put buses in the car park behind. The police objected and now the police have moved. So, there is an issue there. So, we have to look at new alternatives in terms of delivering a proper public transport hub, along the lines of Caerphilly, for example, where there’s a good example. In the future, rather than saying that we’re just going to live with the situation, where the main bus station and the main railway station are up—well, one is uphill from the other, and therefore inaccessible for people with mobility problems—new thinking will be needed as part of the metro project as to how we deliver those hubs in the future.

Suzy Davies (Conservative, South Wales West)

I thank Huw Irranca-Davies for his question, because I must admit, I’m a little bit sceptical about the attention that my region has been given in the course of all this—even that non-specific third phase that we’re talking about, in a number of years to come. There’s talk about things like a fast bus for Porthcawl, rather than anything more integrated. My constituents, including those from the western part of the region, don’t see the lines on the maps between projects like the Swansea bay city region and the Cardiff capital region, or even the south Wales metro. So, what will your Government do to ensure that all these projects dovetail properly for my constituents, rather than create cracks between them, through which those communities on the periphery are likely to fall?

Carwyn Jones (Labour, Bridgend)

The railway line for Porthcawl was closed by a Conservative Government in 1963.

Suzy Davies (Conservative, South Wales West)

What’s that got to do with my question?

Carwyn Jones (Labour, Bridgend)

I don’t hold her personally responsible for that, but that’s the reality of it. The line coming into the town was built over many, many years ago, and it’s now a dual-carriageway road and much of the line has gone. So, it would be impractical to reinstate the line from Heol y Sheet junction in Pyle, through the Nottage tunnel, long gone, into Porthcawl itself. So, we have to consider other alternatives for towns like Porthcawl in the future, given the fact that they were cut off from the rail network in the early 1960s. One suggestion is a fast bus; there are other possibilities that can be made available for towns that are a distance away from the heavy-rail network in the future.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Dai Lloyd. Oh, I can’t see him. Caroline Jones.

Caroline Jones (UKIP, South Wales West)

First Minister, in order for the south Wales metro to successfully deliver upon its stated outcome of lowering private car use, it must offer multimodal transport across the region. Therefore, are you as disappointed as I am that the Bridgend interchange will not be completed for another 10 to 15 years? Will the south Wales metro project be able to deliver the interchange sooner than envisioned in the Bridgend local transport plan?

Carwyn Jones (Labour, Bridgend)

That depends, of course, on that EU money that we’re going to lose—£125 million; forgive the irony there—being made up by the UK Government. The reality is that that will put a hole in the budget. It’s not fatal to the metro project, but without that money, it’ll be far more difficult to advance or to quicken the projects along the lines of the one that she’s just mentioned.

Nick Ramsay (Conservative, Monmouth)

5. Will the First Minister provide an update on his discussions with local authorities regarding business rate revaluation? OAQ(5)0277(FM)

Carwyn Jones (Labour, Bridgend)

The Valuation Office Agency is the independent, statutory body responsible for carrying out the revaluation for non-domestic rating purposes. It published the draft rating list on 30 September, and ratepayers can check their valuations prior to the new list coming into force on 1 April next year.

Nick Ramsay (Conservative, Monmouth)

Thank you, First Minister. As you know, the impending business rate revaluation continues to be a source of considerable concern for businesses, in some parts of Wales—I accept, not all, but certainly in my area of Wales. The Monmouth chamber of commerce met yesterday to discuss the hike in rates that many of the members are facing, and only this morning, I’ve received an e-mail from a business in Chepstow that is facing a potential doubling of its rates next year. This threatens the future viability of many of these businesses. Can you update us on your discussions with chambers of commerce across Wales and, indeed, other stakeholders and businesses, and tell us what you’re going to do to allay these concerns? I know you’re going to be making an announcement in due course about business rate relief. How will you tailor that to the needs of those businesses that are going to be worst affected by the revaluation?

Carwyn Jones (Labour, Bridgend)

The point he makes is a fair one. We have a consultation ongoing at the moment. The responses to that consultation have come almost entirely from Monmouth and Cowbridge, so, clearly, there is an issue there for businesses in those two towns. Those who have benefited tend to be silent on these issues. So, in examining the issues that they have raised, that will help us to put in place a transitional scheme that will be as effective as possible for those two towns. I’m not saying it only applies in those two towns, but the effect has been most marked there. Of course, it’s a matter for the Valuation Office Agency as to how these valuations take place, but we want to make sure that, by listening to businesses, we can get the right scheme in place for the transitional phase.

Adam Price (Plaid Cymru, Carmarthen East and Dinefwr)

I think the First Minister will know that I’ve raised with him other cases from north Wales, actually, when I asked him about the effects of the revaluation and the hikes that businesses there have been experiencing. So, I think it is clear that a number of businesses throughout Wales are facing an extreme increase in their liabilities as a result of the revaluation. So, would he look again at the level of transitional relief that is provided and whether more can be done there? We are in this odd position of the revaluation happening and then, a year later, there is going to be a more fundamental reform of the business rate scheme. As a result of that, wouldn’t it be sensible to look as to whether the transitional relief provided is sufficient to provide succour to some of the businesses affected?

Carwyn Jones (Labour, Bridgend)

Yes, and we’ll do that as part of the consultation. He’s right, there will be businesses that have seen a significant increase in business rates; others will have seen the exact opposite. It’s revenue neutral in its intention, in any event, but, yes, the transitional scheme is designed to be brought in as soon as is possible after the consultation has taken place, in order to provide help on a transitional basis, and then, of course, we will look at what the permanent scheme actually looks like.

Rhianon Passmore (Labour, Islwyn)

6. What progress is the Welsh Government making in improving survival rates for cancer? OAQ(5)0278(FM)

Carwyn Jones (Labour, Bridgend)

Well, cancer survival rates do continue to improve year on year. One-year survival has now reached 70 per cent and five-year survival has reached 50 per cent. We will continue this progress through the refreshed cancer delivery plan, which was published on the fifteenth of this month.

Rhianon Passmore (Labour, Islwyn)

Diolch, First Minister. Last week, the Member for Cynon Valley, Vikki Howells, and myself had the great privilege to tour the laboratories of Cancer Research Wales. We were able to witness the internationally renowned groundbreaking work that is now taking place here in Wales to increase scientific understanding of how cancer attacks the immune system. Therefore, may I welcome warmly the Welsh Government’s revised cancer delivery plan that has just been launched? All of us can applaud the fact that patient satisfaction remains positive. Investment on spending on cancer services has risen from £347 million in 2011-12 to £409 million in 2014-15. So, First Minister, what can the Welsh Government do, going forward, to equip the scientists at Cancer Research Wales with the tools they need to improve survival rates by improving the early detection of cancer?

Carwyn Jones (Labour, Bridgend)

Well, we are investing £4.5 million of funding over three years in the new Wales Cancer Research Centre, which was launched in October last year. In addition, roughly £4.7 million is invested annually in support of recruiting patients to trials or studies and supporting health board research activity.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Ynys Môn)

It is well-known that survival rates of cancer are lower for those who receive a diagnosis through accident and emergency departments in hospitals. It’s also known that there is some inequality in terms of who is likely to get a diagnosis in an A&E department, and that the less wealthy are more likely to go through that process rather than going through alternative processes and getting over barriers in going to see their GP and so on. So, would the First Minister agree with me that the Government could look at introducing walk-in centres so that people who do have symptoms that they may have had for some time can actually go and get a check-up without going through the GP process in full?

Carwyn Jones (Labour, Bridgend)

Well, the problem, I believe, with many of the various cancers, is that they just present when one goes to an A&E department because of the fact that the symptoms aren’t serious or don’t become serious until you actually have to go to A&E. Pancreatic cancer is an example of that, where many people only get the diagnosis once they go into A&E, because it’s so difficult to give a diagnosis for that kind of cancer. Others might feel some pain and they do nothing about it—we know that some are like that. Then, of course, they’re in a position where they have to have treatment. We’ve been working with doctors to ensure that GPs can move people through the system so that they can have a cancer diagnosis as soon as is possible, and we see, of course, that the vast majority of people do go through the system and get a diagnosis as soon as possible.

Caroline Jones (UKIP, South Wales West)

First Minister, the key to improving cancer survival rates is early diagnosis. It is therefore hugely welcome that the new cancer delivery plan for Wales is overhauling the GP cancer referrals by piloting diagnostic centres in Cwm Taf Local Health Board and Abertawe Bro Morgannwg University Local Health Board. However, the delivery plan states that improving access to diagnostics is an enormous challenge. What actions are you taking to address the shortages of equipment and staff in pathology, radiography and oncology identified in the delivery plan?

Carwyn Jones (Labour, Bridgend)

Well, three examples: we are investing nearly £10 million in new linear accelerators so that patients can have access to the latest radiotherapy techniques. Our regional centres perform well in terms of the rate of intensity-modulated radiotherapy. We are committed to a new £200 million Velindre cancer centre, and, through the transforming cancer services programme, we will revolutionise the way that cancer services are delivered in the south-east of Wales. We have agreed £3 million of funding for decontamination facilities in endoscopy units and at least £6 million for a pilot diagnostic hub in Cwm Taf, as the Member has mentioned. All of these things, taken together, will continue to improve the outlook for so many of those who are living with cancer—to use the correct terminology.

Mark Reckless (UKIP, South Wales East)

7. When did the First Minister first call for the abolition of tolls on the Severn bridges? OAQ(5)0282(FM)

Carwyn Jones (Labour, Bridgend)

It was in our manifesto in May. I’ll send him a copy if he wants.

Mark Reckless (UKIP, South Wales East)

I’ve read the manifesto—

Carwyn Jones (Labour, Bridgend)

I thought he might have done. [Laughter.]

Mark Reckless (UKIP, South Wales East)

My previous quote was:

‘We couldn't abolish the tolls, let's be perfectly frank about that. But of course any money that is raised could be applied to the M4’.

But that was in 2012, and I credit the First Minister for the position he now adopts. I've raised with him the issue that the UK Government's own powers to levy tolls under the Severn Bridges Act 1992 expire after a certain amount of money has been raised, recently estimated at £88 million. And, on a half toll, those powers wouldn't take it beyond 2019. Will the First Minister commit to exploiting his Government’s and this Assembly's powers to the maximum possible extent to prevent tolling thereafter?

Carwyn Jones (Labour, Bridgend)

Yes. I should've known you would have read the manifesto, of course, but, yes, I will make that commitment. I reiterate what I said to him in the committee on Friday, that that is something that needs to be examined carefully.

Mohammad Asghar (Conservative, South Wales East)

At a recent meeting of the Welsh Affairs Committee, the UK Government transport Minister, Andrew Jones, said that income from tolls on the Severn bridges would not be used as a profit-making exercise once they are returned to public ownership. Given that the bridges generate more than £90 million a year in revenue, but cost only £14 million to maintain, will the First Minister join me in welcoming this indication of a significant cut in tolls in the near future in Wales?

Carwyn Jones (Labour, Bridgend)

Well, I’d prefer it if we controlled the tolls ourselves—they are in Wales, after all. That would be a significant step forward. I think the problem is that I have seen so many different figures for the maintenance of both bridges. They range from £20 million plus to over £100 million, I've seen as well. I think the issue is what the condition of the original bridge is. So, I think it's hugely important that there is a proper survey of both bridges, so it's understood what the liabilities that surround those bridges are, and also what the maintenance costs are likely to be going forward. Then we’ll have a better idea of what money needs to be found in order for the tolls to be abolished.

Rhianon Passmore (Labour, Islwyn)

First Minister, last week, the Cabinet Secretary for Economy and Infrastructure met the UK Tory Government transport Secretary, Chris Grayling, and told him in no uncertain terms that the tolls should be scrapped and that, if the UK Government was not prepared to do that, it should not make a profit, but simply charge the actual cost of maintenance. Maybe the Member for South Wales East, Mark Reckless, could place in the Assembly Library his contributions from Hansard when he raged against his Tory UK Government's exploitation of the Welsh economy by their refusal to scrap or minimise the Severn bridge tolls, but I doubt it. Will the First Minister state how the Welsh Government can continue to stand up for the people of Wales in the face of a UK Tory Government that is literally profiteering at their expense?

Carwyn Jones (Labour, Bridgend)

Well, we did suggest that we should take over the running of the bridges, subject, of course, to a proper survey and a proper understanding of the maintenance of those bridges. That was rejected. At the time, we were told that the tolls would remain because they provided a source of income for the Department of Transport for spending on roads in England—not a penny was going to come to Wales at that point. I think it's worth emphasising, of course, that, as we look at the tolls, if we move to a situation where the tolls are abolished, or if the UK Government at some point looks at e-tolling, that would cause traffic to arrive more quickly at the Brynglas tunnels, therefore adding to congestion at the Brynglas tunnels. So, the issue of Brynglas and the issue of the bridges needs to be considered carefully, because of the impact that toll reduction has on traffic arriving then in Newport.

Adam Price (Plaid Cymru, Carmarthen East and Dinefwr)

8. What consideration has the First Minister given to the National Infrastructure Commission for Wales having the function of an infrastructure bank? OAQ(5)0279(FM)

Carwyn Jones (Labour, Bridgend)

We are currently out to consultation on establishing a commission to advise on long-term strategic infrastructure needs to support a more stable investment framework for the future. The body as proposed would not have lending functions, but, of course, a development bank will be developed so that more financial support will be available to businesses.

Adam Price (Plaid Cymru, Carmarthen East and Dinefwr)

Already this month the Canadian Prime Minister, Justin Trudeau, has announced the establishment of an infrastructure bank for Canada. The former Australian Prime Minister, Paul Keating, has called for the same for Australia. Hillary Clinton had campaigned in favour of an infrastructure bank, and, although Trump had opposed that, the President-elect has just said that he wishes to create an infrastructure bank for the United States. Isn’t it time for us in Wales now to take this opportunity, particularly as we’re about to lose the only infrastructure bank that we have at present, which is the EIB?

Carwyn Jones (Labour, Bridgend)

It’s not clear that we are going to lose the EIB. Officials have been in discussions with the EIB and there is no reason why people outwith the European Union can’t receive funding, but, of course, if the United Kingdom is outside the European Union, there would be less money available to the bank itself. So that’s what the position is at present according to the bank, so it would still be open.

We want to ensure that the development bank will be able to support businesses, but, at the present time, the work on the commission is being developed. I’m not in favour of a totally independent body, some kind of quango, but we want to ensure that the commission is a body that can develop and plan ahead for the best infrastructure for Wales for the future.

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

The Welsh Government consultation document on the commission makes it clear that the commission would be advisory and non-statutory, and that Ministers would retain control over investment decisions. If, as you’ve just indicated, the evolution of Finance Wales into a development bank for Wales might incorporate some infrastructure bank functions, how will you ensure that it complies with the sustainable development principle implemented by the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015, given that we understand from evidence to committee that it won’t be bound by Bank of England prudential requirements or EU rules on capital requirements requiring risk-sensitive and enhanced risk management?

Carwyn Jones (Labour, Bridgend)

That’s correct, but we expect all public bodies to adhere to the principles of the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015 and its seven goals. With regard to the progress of the development bank, that progress is going well in order to achieve the correct certification so the bank can operate, and we’re confident, of course, that it’s on time.

Dawn Bowden (Labour, Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney)

9. Will the First Minister make a statement on the prospects for economic growth in the south Wales valleys? OAQ(5)0289(FM)

Carwyn Jones (Labour, Bridgend)

We are delivering a range of actions to support a strong, prosperous economy in the Valleys. That includes business support, advice and investment in digital and transport infrastructure. We’ll continue to tailor our approach in response to the outcomes of the Valleys taskforce.

Dawn Bowden (Labour, Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney)

Thank you for that statement, First Minister. I recently met with the Bevan Foundation to discuss ideas and strategies for economic regeneration in my constituency. Part of those discussions focused on the Cardiff capital region and the metro. The Cardiff capital region will undoubtedly bring significant benefits to the south Wales area, but there is a danger that areas like Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney may not benefit fully because of their distance from Cardiff, and, in reality, Cardiff in itself could not provide enough jobs for the needs of the Valleys areas.

Given that within 20 minutes of Merthyr Tydfil there is a population base of around 175,000, it’s a key transport intersection between the A470 and the A465, and it will have a metro terminus providing good public transport links across the Valleys, does the First Minister agree with both the Bevan Foundation and the Joseph Rowntree Foundation that Merthyr Tydfil is ideally placed to be a growth hub for the south-east Valleys to act as a counter-balance to Cardiff, and that this should be considered as an integral part of the Government’s economic strategy?

Carwyn Jones (Labour, Bridgend)

Yes, I do. Merthyr is in a good place in terms of transport. The metro will benefit it greatly; the dualling of the Heads of the Valleys is hugely important for the town and the surrounding area. The town centre, of course, has seen huge amounts of—ironically—European money spent on it to get to a position where it’s far more attractive for businesses, and, of course, the businesses who’ve come to the developments outside the town have complemented the town centre, it seems to me.

We see, of course, jobs coming to Merthyr. Many years ago, the Welsh Government set up an office in Merthyr. We’ve seen Tenneco, of course, General Dynamics, Trago Mills—these are all signs to me that Merthyr has a great future, and great potential to act as an engine to drive the economy, not just in the town, but in the surrounding towns and villages as well.

Simon Thomas (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

10. Will the First Minister make a statement on GP shortages in Wales? OAQ(5)0288(FM)[W]

Carwyn Jones (Labour, Bridgend)

General practitioners in primary care remain critical to the success of the NHS in Wales. We continue to respond to the current and future challenges for GPs and, of course, we have our campaign to market Wales as an attractive place for doctors’ careers and in which to live and work.

Simon Thomas (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

Well, First Minister, the shortage is critical in some areas—not across Wales, I would agree, but, in certain areas, such as southern Pembrokeshire, there is a grave shortage of GPs. There is a recruitment campaign ongoing, I accept that, but, in the meantime, what are you doing to ensure that primary care is available to all in areas such as southern Pembrokeshire by using pharmacies and using nurse practitioners and alternative methods of employing of employing GPs directly?

Carwyn Jones (Labour, Bridgend)

The Member is talking about Choose Well, an initiative that we have to ensure that patients go to see the pharmacist first, and then nurses in surgeries. Then, only after that, they would go to the GP surgery, and that would take the pressure off them. Where GPs surgeries are closing down, the service is then taken over by the health boards and the service continues. But, there is a question for the profession at the end of the day. More and more young GPs want to be salaried and not have to buy in to a surgery, and that’s something the profession will have to deal with over the coming years.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

I thank the First Minister.

2. Urgent Question: Tata’s Port Talbot Site

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

I have selected three urgent questions under Standing Order 12.66 and I call on Bethan Jenkins to ask the first urgent question.

Bethan Sayed (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

Will the Minister make a statement on staffing levels at Tata's Port Talbot site? EAQ(5)0075(EI)

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Yes. Tata Steel directly employs around 3,600 people at Port Talbot. Tata is currently recruiting 49 experienced agency staff to replace 21 vacancies arising from natural attrition and 28 as a result of voluntary severance.

Bethan Sayed (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

Thank you for that detail. I’m raising this now because worried steelworkers have come to me very recently to say the company, as you have said, are in the process of employing staff at Port Talbot—although they quoted to me 200 to 250. So, it would be good if we could have a breakdown on that. You know that they obviously declared the cuts of 750 workers earlier this year. Staff want to know if this extra recruitment is being done for safety reasons, as many of them continue to be concerned about safe staffing levels in light of the announcements that were made earlier this year. I have previously raised these concerns with you and with other Ministers and I know that much of it is down to confidence, we’ve been told, by the trade union and by Tata. But, as you will understand, nothing should compromise safety under any circumstances.

You said in your reply to me that there are going to be agency staff that are going to be employed. I was wondering if you could tell me if any of those who are going to be employed are former full-time Tata employees, because of course many of them are concerned that they are not being prioritised in this process that is currently being undertaken by Tata. Are you aware of that? What discussions are you having with them so that we can make sure that any employment in that area is sustainable employment?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

I’d agree entirely with the Member that nothing should compromise health and safety in the workplace, be it in the steel sector or any other sector for that matter. My understanding is that the 49 workers are over and above the 750 tranche that the Member refers to. All are trained and hold safety passports. It’s also my understanding that the unions and management have agreed to this recruitment approach. There is no evidence to suggest that the recruitment of 49 agency staff in any way relates to concerns around health and safety at the site but, if any members of the workforce do have concerns regarding health and safety, they should be reported.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Cabinet Secretary, I join you in expressing concerns that health and safety is a priority and we must ensure that everything is done to ensure the safety of our workers, particularly 15 years after the horrific accident that occurred in blast furnace No. 5. But, do you join me in congratulating the actual workforce? Because the result of taking on new employees—and they are going to be Tata employees, they’re not agency staff that will be employed, it’s Tata employees they’ll be employed as—through an agreement between trade unions and management shows that the level of production that has been achieved because of the bridge is actually succeeding and the works is actually going from strength to strength?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Yes, I would join with the Member in welcoming the recruitment of 49 additional workers, which is to support production. I think it’ll send a message that the bridge has indeed worked, is working, and the steel sector in Wales is in a position of relative strength compared to where it was back in January of this year. We will go on working with Tata and with all steel companies in Wales to ensure that the sector has a prosperous future.

Suzy Davies (Conservative, South Wales West)

I just wonder if you can clarify this, because I don’t think you actually answered the question that Bethan Jenkins put to you in a way that I understood. Are these agency staff or not? Because David Rees seems to suggest they’re not. In your response to us originally, you suggested that they are. They may be agency staff, but they may be former Tata employees. Can you clarify that? If they’re not Tata’s former employees, can you tell me what the taskforce has done—obviously, part of their role is to deal with employment—to ensure that Tata’s first pick is always its former employees, where that’s relevant? Can you tell me also, if there is to be a $500 million investment in the plant, which is suggested at the moment, is this period of employment, or are these employees, part of a more strategic plan from Tata to take on more staff, or is this just covering over a sort of temporary need to backfill some jobs that have disappeared?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

My understanding is that this is strategic, and it was remiss of me not to give more detail to Bethan Jenkins regarding the question about the agency workers. These are Tata staff—former Tata staff—who have been laid off. They are being brought back into work, and I’m sure that that’s something that we should all welcome.

Caroline Jones (UKIP, South Wales West)

Cabinet Secretary, in recent weeks, the media have been reporting that Tata plans to make a significant investment in the Port Talbot plant of around £0.5 billion. What discussions have the Welsh Government had with Tata regarding their investment plans? Do you know whether they plan to reline the blast furnaces or introduce arc furnaces to the Port Talbot site? Thank you.

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

We continue to have discussions with Tata regarding steel sites in Wales, but I’m unable to go into any detail about these projects due to the ongoing negotiations that are taking place and the discussions that are being carried out right now. But, I do hope to be in a position in the coming weeks to make an announcement.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

I thank the Cabinet Secretary.

3. Urgent Question: Paediatric Services at Withybush Hospital

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

I call on Eluned Morgan to ask the second urgent question.

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Will the Minister make a statement on the options put forward by Hywel Dda Health Board to temporarily reduce paediatric services at Withybush Hospital? EAQ(5)0077(HWS)

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Thank you for the question. At its public board meeting on 24 November, Hywel Dda university health board will consider options for temporary changes to the opening hours of the paediatric ambulatory care unit at Withybush hospital. This is an operational matter for the health board.

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Cabinet Secretary, you’ll be acutely aware of the concerns of residents in Pembrokeshire with regard to the changes in the way health services are delivered there. Hywel Dda health board will discuss a series of options this Thursday that seek to reduce the opening of the paediatric ambulatory care unit at Withybush hospital due to recruitment difficulties. Amongst the set of options is the full closure of the paediatric unit, which would be totally unacceptable to me and the people I represent.

Cabinet Secretary, I would like to ask you to ask the health board, as I have, how a single mother who lives in Fishguard with three children, one of them sick, with no transport and on a low income is going to get to and from Glangwili in Camarthen after 6 o’clock at night. Those who arrive by ambulance can expect to pay about £100 in a taxi to get home or face a four-hour journey via public transport. Please could you press the health board on this issue of transport to and from the hospital during this temporary period of closure? Will you ask the health board to ensure that accident and emergency at Withybush continues to assess all patients, regardless of age? Will the Welsh Government commit to support the recruitment of urgently needed posts to the paediatric unit in Haverfordwest? Finally, could you ask the health board to give a categorical assurance that this situation is only temporary?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

I thank the Member for the follow-up points. On your first one, which you made earlier, as well, about the possibility of full closure, that’s not the planned option. I’ve seen that the recommended option is, indeed, a temporary reduction in hours, before returning to a 12-hour ambulatory care unit, supported by consultant cover in addition on rota from Glangwili. I’m clear that that’s their preferred option, and I’ll check myself with the health board that that is the option they’re pursuing—a temporary reduction with a plan to return to the previous service.

Indeed, I’m happy to reassure you about the point that I expect every hospital with an A&E to undertake proper assessment of every patient that comes through the door and understand where is the most appropriate point for the next part of care to take place. It may be that they can be seen, treated and discharged at that point, it may be that they need further care in that setting or in a different one, and I expect that to continue to be the case.

I think that the first point, though, is that this is because of recruitment challenges. This is the very real and unavoidable truth—that if you can’t recruit the staff, you can’t run a safe service. So, I’m pleased that they’ve made some recruitment. They’ve got further interviews, and it’s really important that that’s successful. Actually, we all have a job of work to do to support the health board in making it an attractive place to come and work in, with a model of care in which consultants want to work, middle-grade doctors want to work, and where trainees want to be part of the work environment as well, supported by a nurse group of staff who have more skills to do more than nurses could do in the past. Advanced paediatric nurse practitioners will be part of the future of care in this part of Wales and the rest of Wales. And I’m happy to indicate that I expect the health board to properly cover transport issues as well. I understand it’s a very real concern, not just in west Wales, but in other parts of the country, too, that access, physical access to services, has to be there as well. So, I’m pleased to see that you’ve taken this up directly with the health board and I’ll happily contact them afterwards to make sure your questions do get an answer.

Paul Davies (Conservative, Preseli Pembrokeshire)

Cabinet Secretary, a few weeks ago, you made it clear in this very Chamber that, and I quote,

‘local families are being assured that they can continue to access services as they do now and do not need to make changes in how they access care.’

Well, it looks like that’s not the case in the short term, should these changes go ahead. Once again, the people of Pembrokeshire will see more and more services removed from their local hospital. Cabinet Secretary, you will not be surprised that I believe families in Pembrokeshire deserve a full-time paediatrics unit at their local hospital. Now, you made it clear two weeks ago that it would not be sensible to try to reinstate a 24-hour paediatric ambulatory care service, but surely, Cabinet Secretary, you cannot seriously support any changes that will result in a service that’s only open during office hours. Therefore, can you give us reassurances today that these changes, if they go ahead, will be on a temporary basis only?

Now, as we know, it’s a previous Welsh Government that has approved the reduction of a full-time paediatric service at Withybush hospital in the first place. So, do you agree with me that reducing services at a hospital could affect the sustainability of those remaining services? Therefore, can you provide cast-iron guarantees that there will be no impact on the sustainability of other services, and do you also agree with me that urgent intervention is now needed to protect those other services? And finally, Llywydd, Cabinet Secretary, you’ve made it clear that any decisions taken regarding Withybush hospital have been based on expert advice. As you know, the Royal College of Emergency Medicine, who are also experts, have endorsed an NHS England report that states, and I quote,

‘Hospitals providing emergency care to children must have comprehensive paediatric facilities, 24/7 paediatric cover and paediatric nursing and anaesthetic support.’

In light of those comments, will you now change your Government’s policy and aspire to restore full-time paediatric services at Withybush hospital?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

I’m happy to reassure you that local families do not need to change access to care. You’ll have heard me answer Eluned Morgan’s question, and in particular the point about transport and access to care, and, indeed, if there is a need for a child to be transported to a different point to receive their care, then the health board, together with the Welsh ambulance service trust, should make those arrangements available—and have that potential planned in, rather than waiting for a situation to occur that hasn’t been anticipated.

I am happy to reiterate the point that Eluned Morgan made again: that this is a planned temporary change in response to an inability to recruit in the short term, with further recruitment being planned. I don’t accept or recognise your point that urgent intervention is needed to protect other services. To try to expand this out and to spread more mistrust and fear about the future of those services I think is highly irresponsible. When it comes to acting on expert advice, you will of course know that, in many other parts of the United Kingdom, paediatric support is provided by expert nursing staff who are appropriately qualified and provide support for accident and emergency departments to continue; that is not an unusual service model.

Indeed, we come back to the nub of the Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health’s recommendations about what is an appropriate service and what is the best possible service to provide in this part of Wales. And indeed, those recommendations in that review indicate the previous model is not safe, not sustainable and not the right thing to do for patients. I reiterate: I am being guided by expert advice in this field, by people who understand the need to run these services safely and effectively, by people who have run these services safely and effectively in a variety of different settings across the United Kingdom, including in significantly rural healthcare places, and I will not go back to a system where that expert advice says it would be a worse service delivering worse outcomes for people in Pembrokeshire; I believe they deserve much better than that.

Simon Thomas (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

Would the Cabinet Secretary please say which part of the review that he just called in aid says that a reduction to an office hours, closing-at-six-o’clock service would be acceptable, because I don’t recall that in the review at all? Please tell us if that is the case. What assessment have you made of your decision—your Government’s decision—to approve the closure of the 24-hour paediatric service on the now inability of Hywel Dda to recruit to a 12-hour—and declining—paediatric service? Surely, there’s a link, because the best consultants want to work in the 24-hour service, where they will have support, and will see that as part of the support. When this was last raised, I asked you, Cabinet Secretary, whether you would have confidence, as a parent, in the services provided at Withybush under the old regime. With the new proposed closures, I certainly can’t stand and support these, and I ask you to take action.

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

I thank the Member for the points that he’s made. Now, I go back to the fact that we’re talking about options for a temporary change to the service, and that’s the point. To try and talk about these as if this is a done deal for the long-term future of the service is simply not the case. That is simply not what the health board are proposing to do. And it really is important that Members of any and every political party behave in a responsible manner about really important choices for families in the Pembrokeshire area. And so, that is a temporary change.

The long-term ambition is to have a 12-hour, seven-days-a-week service, properly staffed and supported, both in the community and by consultants, in the way that the rota works—again, following the expert advice provided by the Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health. Actually, if you read the board papers, and if you read the previous review, then they indicated that, actually, not changing the service model would make it more difficult to recruit, would mean that the service is more fragile and would deliver worse outcomes. And, indeed, not taking these changes means that, actually, the training ability is going to be compromised as well. Part of the complaints trainees at present have is that there isn’t enough work for them to undertake their training appropriately and properly.

So, there really is a point here about high-quality training, but also a service that genuinely delivers the best outcomes, and based on the best evidence and advice. And I will support every health board in Wales in delivering healthcare on that basis, to deliver the right outcomes for people in every single part of the country.

Joyce Watson (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Cabinet Secretary, I don’t—or I would hope that there isn’t anybody in this room who would accept the health board’s decision to take the appropriate action in this case. Because in this case, as things are now existing on the ground, it seems that, sadly, patient safety, which has to be the No. 1 priority, could be put at risk. And that is simply as a consequence of the recruitment problems that several people have mentioned here this afternoon.

So, my question is this: I want to know whether there has been a conversation—I’ve certainly written to Hywel Dda, and spoken to them—about recruiting that paediatric consultant to the paediatric ambulatory care unit. But I think there’s also a wider picture that needs addressing here, and you’ve slightly alluded to it, and that is the care that happens within the community, because an awful lot of the children who are accessing care in Withybush hospital are children who need long-term care. And, very often, it’s about crisis management of their long-term condition that sees them arrive at Withybush hospital in an untimely and unscheduled fashion. I remember, when we were both at the paediatric unit in Withybush, that there was talk about moving forward into delivering that care, very often in the homes of those children, so they don’t need to travel at all. So, I think we need to widen the debate. I think that people are hugely concerned, and mostly it’s the parents of the children who I’ve just described. So, if you have anything further to add to that, I would be most grateful.

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Thank you for the points made. And, again, I recognise and recall the same conversation about improving the community service in paediatrics, to make sure that children’s care is properly anticipated and managed. It’s much better for the families and much better for the child to make sure that, wherever that care is being undertaken, it’s undertaken in as planned a manner as possible. And that has to be the direction of travel, not just in Pembrokeshire, but right across the country, in other rural settings, but also in urban and Valleys settings as well. It’s actually the right thing to do for the child in that whole context.

I’m happy to go back to the point about recruitment. This is a planned temporary change, in response to a failure to recruit, and there are interviews being stated for early January to try and fill the particular vacancies. And I think you’re right to remind us all that the worst thing for the health board to do is not to act in the face of a staffing shortage. That would mean running short—it would mean running a service where I do not think individual professionals could or should be assured, or even the health board could be assured, that they’re providing a safe and high-quality service that people in Pembrokeshire really do deserve. So, there is a need to act. I’m pleased the health board are acting, both in terms of their options and their choice about what to do with the service now, but also in the longer-term future, both in the community and in the hospital setting as well.

Neil Hamilton (UKIP, Mid and West Wales)

The Cabinet Secretary will recognise that there is universal concern across the party divide in this Assembly over this regrettable situation. And this arises because it coincides with the retirement of a Pembrokeshire paediatric consultant and the maternity leave of another. The retirement of one paediatric consultant surely is reasonably foreseeable, and there should have been some provision for this situation arising. There are many people in Pembrokeshire who think this is part of a long-term plan to close these services, because, three years ago, the service was downgraded from 24 hours to 12—now it’s been downgraded to eight. This is, apparently, a temporary change, but who knows. The Cabinet Secretary has given us tentative assurances, but on the other hand has said it’s not actually his decision or responsibility—it’s that of the local health board. This is a board that is in targeted intervention. Why doesn’t the health Secretary target his intervention on this very pressing need, which is going to affect, particularly people in north Pembrokeshire and west Pembrokeshire, because Glangwili is a very long way to go, especially late at night?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

I thank the Member for the points that he’s made, which largely restate points made by other Members in terms of the questions. I’m happy to indicate again that the health board indicate it’s their option to have a temporary change in the service to reflect the fact that they’re not able to provide all of the consultant cover for the model of care to be provided safely for children and their families. It is important to me, as I expect that it is to everyone else in this Chamber, that the service is provided in a manner that is properly safe, and we do not take risks with children and their families in the manner in which care is provided. I expect the health board to follow through on their commitment to return to a 12-hour service. I expect the health board to follow through on their commitments to make all reasonable efforts to recruit people into this service, and to manage and to try and plan properly for anticipated staff absences and retirements. We know this is a particularly pressed area right across the United Kingdom, but it is a challenge that this health board and others will need to manage.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

I thank the Cabinet Secretary.

4. Urgent Question: The Economic Advisory Boards

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

I now call on Russell George to ask the third urgent question.

Russell George (Conservative, Montgomeryshire)

Will the Minister make a statement on plans to streamline the Welsh Government’s economic advisory boards? EAQ(5)0076(EI)

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Yes. I’ve been very clear that I am working on refreshing economic priorities as part of a wider piece of work. I’m considering the range of panels, bodies and groups that provide advice to me.

Russell George (Conservative, Montgomeryshire)

Can I thank the Presiding Officer for accepting the urgent question, and the Cabinet Secretary for his answer? This does seem to be a significant change in the way that Welsh Government receives advice and makes decisions in regard to economic development. So, perhaps you could outline why this was released, or reported in the media, before being made available to Assembly Members in a statement.

Now, past Welsh Governments have spoken very highly of the advisory model, comprising nine different panels and 40 different organisations, which, of course, fed into Welsh Government decision making. You’ve now outlined a different approach that you’ll be taking. Is it your view that the past model was ineffective? What are your views on that?

Professor Brian Morgan, who sat on a number of these panels, himself has said that this were a bit of a talking shop, some of the past advisory boards. I wonder if you agree with that. He did make a quote that this cumbersome and under-resourced advisory model has hindered the Welsh Government’s ability to make responsive decisions, and, therefore, has had a detrimental impact on the Welsh economy. I’d appreciate your views on his views, and if you do agree, is it your view that you should look at past decisions that were made as a result of receiving that advice?

And finally, how is the new model going to feed into the new economic strategy that you’re developing?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

I’d like to thank the Member for his questions and say that it’s not necessarily urgent, this question, because it is part of that process of consulting on a new economic strategy, a strategy to make Wales more prosperous and secure—work that is going on, work that has been going on over the summer and the autumn through the winter and into the spring, and so, consequently, this is an ongoing piece of work. No announcement’s been made, no decision has been taken. This is part of an open consultation, which I’ve invited Members opposite to take part in, and so, as I say again, no decision has been made on the form or shape of the panels and the advisory boards that will be put together. But I very much welcome the contribution that people such as Professor Morgan have made. They recognise—just as many businesses have spoken with me about this—that there is a need to simplify and streamline the amount of advice and the amount of boards and the processes by which businesses and experts are able to give me expert advice.

At the moment, there is something in the region of 50 panels and boards offering advice and guidance. That’s helpful in many respects, but I think, as Professor Morgan has outlined, we need to make sure that the time and resource that experts and business leaders put in to giving me advice is used effectively and that I am able to draw on all of that advice. At the moment, there are simply too many boards and panels in existence. Many have been established on a task and finish basis. Some should perhaps be wound up as a consequence of that. At the moment this work is ongoing. We’re consulting widely with the whole of society and I would invite the Member to participate if he feels a wish to.

Adam Price (Plaid Cymru, Carmarthen East and Dinefwr)

The Labour Government does seem to go through these periodic phases where it abolishes bodies that it established and then seeks to claim the credit for it. I suppose we’ll have to call this one the mini bonfire of the mini quangos. But I have some sympathy with him. I don’t often doodle in the Chamber—I promise—but I tried to do a little organogram of his department—I stopped at about 42—with all the dotted lines, of course, responding to him. Even if you met one a week, you’d just spend your time taking advice, and it’s very difficult to separate the signal from the noise in that context. So, I sympathise with the proposal to streamline, but can I ask him to focus, crucially, not just on what you’re going to remove but what you replace it with? And wouldn’t it be better, as Professor Morgan was hinting, to have fewer larger, better-resourced, more expert bodies actually providing the strategic direction that the Welsh economy needs?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Can I thank Adam Price for his questions? I’m pleased that he welcomes the work that I’m undertaking at the moment in looking at the entire landscape of advisory boards. It is extensive and I’ve drawn similar diagrams to understand exactly how many boards and organisations there are. We’ve not reached a final decision as of yet in terms of what boards will be created, but I would agree that we do need to have fewer stronger boards and advisory groups that are able to not just advise me in a timely fashion, but also make best use of the time of the experts who are actually on those boards.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

I thank the Cabinet Secretary for his answer to the urgent question.

5. 2. Business Statement and Announcement

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Item 2 on the agenda is the business statement and announcement and I call on Jane Hutt.

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Llywydd, I’ve added an oral statement on the Diamond review of higher education and student finance arrangements in Wales to today’s agenda. The Business Committee has agreed to reduce time allocated to Assembly Commission questions tomorrow. Business for the next three weeks is as shown on the business statement announcement, found among the meeting papers available to Members electronically.

Andrew RT Davies (Conservative, South Wales Central)

Leader of the house, is it possible to have a statement from the Cabinet Secretary for health, please, in relation to the situation that the accident and emergency department at the University Hospital of Wales found itself in on Sunday? I appreciate these pressures are across the United Kingdom and I appreciate they do spike at certain times of the year, but when you do have a paramedic saying that this particular event has driven him to the edge and

‘I fully intend to seek alternative employment as I am mentally beaten’,

that really should cause huge alarm bells to ring in Cathays Park and, indeed, in the Cardiff and Vale health board area, which is responsible for the provision of the A&E department, and obviously the ambulance trust, which had 12 of their vehicles parked up outside the A&E department on Sunday afternoon. I’m not trying to say that this doesn’t happen in other A&E departments, but this is the largest A&E department in Wales, and when you have 12 ambulances and you have paramedics and ambulance staff quoted in the press as saying that they are mentally beaten by the experience that they are going through, this really does call for action from the Welsh Government and, in particular, the Cabinet Secretary to work with the health board to deal with these spikes in demand, so that people do not feel that when they go into work, they find themselves mentally beaten.

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

As you say, there is significant pressure across the UK in terms of calls on our accident and emergency services, and the impact that that has on ambulance services. But as the Member will be aware, and as Members across the Chamber will be aware, we do have escalation plans. All health boards have escalation plans that are used when there’s rising demand, particularly when there are demands above expected levels. And the health board did respond to this increase in demand using those plans, in line with their level 4 status. They managed, of course, throughout the day in line with the health board’s responsibilities. There were exceptional pressures on Sunday. Importantly, attendances were a third higher on Sunday than the previous day. This did require a broader range of actions to take place to support both patients and front-line staff. In fact, the health board does remain at level 4 status, but once this reduces it de-escalates its status. But I would also, finally, say that despite the pressures, ambulance response rates in the Cardiff area for life-threatening calls were at 80 per cent on Sunday, and this included 20 in one hour in terms of arrivals. We must pay tribute to the staff who, of course, are managing these pressures.

Steffan Lewis (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

There have been allegations that the Ministry of Defence has conducted a sham competition for a £3 billion contract to supply it with armoured vehicles. It is alleged that the process has been skewed in favour of the German company Rheinmetall, and its Boxer vehicle, which will cost up to 40 per cent more than the Welsh alternative constructed in Gwent. Can we have a statement from the Cabinet Secretary for the economy or, indeed, the First Minister, to hear what representations have been made by Welsh Government to the MOD regarding this process, and the attempts made by the Welsh Government to secure a level playing field in this particular case?

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Steffan Lewis raises an important point in terms of our relationship in terms of powers and responsibilities for procurement with the MOD contract that, of course, we would seek to influence within the responsibilities and powers that we have to make sure that it is indeed a level playing field. But, obviously, this is something that the Cabinet Secretary will take a note of in terms of the point the Member was raising this afternoon.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Our thoughts go out to all those affected by the floods over the weekend, including many in my own constituency in the Llynfi, Garw and Ogmore valleys, and on lower lying areas in Heol-y-Cyw, Pencoed and elsewhere. And our thanks and praise go to all those who’ve helped respond to the emergency and to the clean-up, which is ongoing.

Much of this is as a result of flash flooding, which is a more regular event now, as our weather patterns change due to global warming. It’s affecting areas previously not thought liable to repeat flooding, but I’ve met residents where this is their third flood event in a decade, causing problems with unaffordable insurance, as well as immediate distress and devastation with their homes and belongings wrecked by flood water, mud and mess. Would the business manager seek a statement on flood resilience—and I notice the Cabinet Secretary is here and she’s very aware of this—so we can explore what more can be done at a community level, at a street level and at a household level to build greater resilience to these flood events? And can we include within that statement the need to develop further local flood forums, so that local people are part of the solution to this increasingly regular and increasingly traumatic river and surface-water flood events?

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Huw Irranca-Davies raises an important point, and I’d like to add my thanks to the services that came out to support constituents in my area who were flooded, including many volunteers as well, such as the Cardiff and Vale Rescue Association, who played their part as well. The written statement was produced by Lesley Griffiths, the Cabinet Secretary, yesterday, and she will want to give an update on this statement. I think it’s important, if you look at that written statement, to take note of Floodline—I will, for the record, say it’s 0345 9881188—and the fact that further local authority investigations are taking place to confirm the numbers affected, and also to determine the cause of flooding in each location.

In terms of allocation of funding for flood alleviation, of course, we have a good record on this, but I know that the Cabinet Secretary will want to take account of this occurrence, these flooding events over the weekend, on the night of Saturday, 19 November, which has caused devastation, and not just in terms of the devastation to individuals in terms of their homes, which is the worst, but the inconvenience in terms of business, the impact on roads, rail, schools and everything else that has been recorded from yesterday.

Mohammad Asghar (Conservative, South Wales East)

Can I ask for a statement from the Cabinet Secretary for Communities and Children on the support for a project that previously benefited from the Communities First programme? The Dowlais Engine House is a project open to children and young people of all abilities and provides an inclusive range of sporting activities, dance and drama, reading and homework clubs, and encourages healthy lifestyles. The project supports young people needing to gain independence, confidence and life skills in their deprived communities, but they’re very concerned that it could come to an end, due to the end of the Communities First programme. When will the Welsh Government be in a position to reassure groups such as the Dowlais Engine House that they will continue to get funding from this Government in the future in Wales? Thank you.

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

The Member does raise an important point about a project in his region, which clearly has beneficial outcomes. You will know that the communities Secretary is seeking views on the impact of the possible phasing out of Communities First, and really seeking views, of course, for communities’ representatives to respond to, so that they can have their say in terms of those areas of investment that are making a beneficial impact.

Neil McEvoy (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

I said last week in this Chamber that class A drugs were being sold openly within a stone’s throw of this Assembly, and that a 13-year-old girl, in a public meeting, said that she was frightened to go out because of the drug dealers. We’re in a situation where front-line police officers don’t have the resources to do the job properly and the commissioner is invisible. When will the Government make a statement about this and a statement of intent to do something about it?

Secondly, there’s another matter, which came up in the Public Accounts Committee last week, when it was revealed that the instrument landing system at St Athan is not fully operational. You’ve had four years to get it operational fully and it’s still not happened. It was revealed, furthermore, that, as a result of this, a contract with EasyJet worth millions of pounds has been lost. Thirdly, it was confirmed that Cardiff Aviation has paid no rent. Now, without a landing system, I don’t blame them, quite frankly.

There’s also another issue about due diligence and the finance through Finance Wales. So, when will the Government be making a statement about this most important matter, which you’ve had four years to sort out and you still haven’t?

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

On your first question, you will be aware, of course, I know, of our substance misuse delivery plan and that’s the delivery plan from 2016 to 2018, ‘Working Together to Reduce Harm’, which is precisely why that delivery plan is so important, in terms of answering your question. It does explain what the Welsh Government’s doing over the next two years to improve the outcomes of those affected by substance misuse. Of course, it is important that we look at this in terms of the review of what works, and I responded to this question from the Member last week. We do have to look at new ways of reducing harm to both individuals, as you’re described, and also to communities. So, this isn’t straightforward, but the substance misuse delivery plan is addressing this specifically.

On your second point, I’m interested that this was an issue that’s being considered by the Public Accounts Committee and I think that’s the place for this to be considered. If this is an issue that is of relevance and importance to us as a Government—and I’m sure the MOD comes into it as well as far as St Athan is concerned, and the particular system that you mentioned—this is something that, of course, the Cabinet Secretary would want to respond to. I’m sure he will have an opportunity in questions to the Cabinet Secretary in due course.

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

I call for a single statement, or even better a debate in Government time, on the changing Welsh Government fuel poverty strategy. A number of small matters I’ll touch on, which are significant for many. In light of the Welsh Government’s review of building regulations, we need to explore Welsh Government’s position in respect of energy performance certificates, which can go up or down solely based on the cost of the fuel, and not on whether the actual efficiency of the home has improved. We need to know whether the Welsh Government believes it should be using cost or carbon savings, or both, as the scoring method for its energy efficiency schemes, particularly if they’re looking to address fuel poverty.

The Welsh Government’s consultation on the future demand-led fuel poverty scheme proposes to introduce age requirements to the eligibility criteria, alongside property characteristics and financial criteria, effectively removing working-age households from eligibility unless a member has certain health conditions. The Fuel Poverty Coalition Cymru are concerned that this will deny help to many households who would currently otherwise be eligible, and risk them being caught in fuel poverty. So, we need to know the Welsh Government’s reasoning for so many, potentially, fuel households losing eligibility, and what support will be available to those households to reduce energy costs and have a warm home?

The Welsh Government consultation also proposes to remove the private rented sector from eligibility, arguing that the Welsh Government’s home improvement loan scheme can fill the gap. But the Fuel Poverty Coalition Cymru are concerned that landlords will not be motivated to take out these loans, leaving private rented tenants without a source of help if they’re in fuel poverty. So, we need to know what data the Welsh Government has on the uptake of home improvement loans by private landlords for energy efficiency measures so far, and an explanation of how it will incentivise landlords to take out such loans in the future.

Ultimately and finally, we need to know where the intervention and prevention agenda fits into this, not only improving lives, but saving money for statutory services. And where are the well-being of future generations indicators that include energy efficiency?

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Mark Isherwood does raise a question that, of course, is being considered through consultation. That is the way in which we certainly want to take forward Government policy: as a result of consultation. Particularly consulting and engaging with those who are experts in the field, and of course that’s what the Cabinet Secretary will be doing.

Llyr Gruffydd (Plaid Cymru, North Wales)

May I ask for a statement by the Cabinet Secretary on the intention of Severn Trent Water to buy Dee Valley Water? There are concerns about the 190 jobs—some of which are to be lost, and others are to be transferred to England. We’ve also heard about the 80 local companies that are part of the supply chain of the Dee Valley Water Company, and I wanted to ask about their future too. This also raises a broader question as to who actually owns one of our most important natural resources as a nation. Severn Trent, of course, is buying a right to a monopoly here in terms of water services and you have to ask where the consumer voice is in all of this. Doesn’t the consumer have a right to say what sort of company or enterprise looks after their water services? And so it’s not just a matter for shareholders, but also a matter for all of the company’s customers.

I have to say that the First Minister’s response to a question from the Plaid Cymru leader, Leanne Wood, when he suggested that the Government is going to correspond with the companies on this, was shocking, to say the least, because this has been public since last week. We need an urgent statement, because if that is the pace of the Government’s response to the situation, that’s quite unacceptable.

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

It does go back to—as the First Minister said in response to a question from the leader of Plaid Cymru—what intervention, what levers and what powers we’ve got. Of course, he did mention the possible prospect of the devolution of those powers. It is obviously of huge significance and importance, and the First Minister did say that in response to the question this afternoon. I’m sure he will want to share with Members the way in which he, and, indeed, the Cabinet Secretary, is able to make our views known, and that’s really all we can do at this stage.

Nick Ramsay (Conservative, Monmouth)

Leader of the house, as Huw Irranca-Davies highlighted in his comments to you earlier, the last few days of heavy rain have seen flooding across the country. They’ve also seen the usual and predictable seasonal flooding of the A4042 at Llanellen bridge in my constituency. This is a major trunk route. The annual flooding causes much inconvenience to commuters and local residents, and it could be avoided if changes were made to drainage of neighbouring fields and, indeed, to the structure of the road itself. It’s an ongoing problem. Could we have a statement from the Cabinet Secretary for infrastructure and transport on the winter resilience of our trunk road network and, perhaps, a review of trouble spots such as that I’ve outlined on the A4042 at Llanellen bridge so that necessary improvements can be planned for so that our trunk road network is able to meet the winter challenges as best as it possibly can?

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Thank you, Nick Ramsay, and I have already, in answer to Huw Irranca-Davies, said that the Cabinet Secretary will make a statement. I think it’s appropriate for her to make a statement following her written statement when some of those investigations have taken place by local authorities and by Natural Resources Wales so that we can respond in terms of what may be in the planning in terms of flood alleviation works. We know that, yesterday, there were a lot of blocked culverts. Also, it’s the nature of the incident, which I think Huw Irranca referred to, that had a particularly devastating impact, not just on homes and households, but on our infrastructure. So, the Cabinet Secretary will come back with a statement following that review of the incidents over the weekend.

Suzy Davies (Conservative, South Wales West)

I wonder if I could ask for a statement from the health Secretary, or possibly from the Minister for public health, about the provision of publicly accessible defibrillators in Wales. In particular, I’d like know about Wales’s response to the European Restart A Heart Day initiative and what support and advice Welsh Government has been giving to community councils about the options for them to be able to provide defibrillators. The Minister for public health will be familiar with the excellent example set by community councils and other organisations in Gower in my region, as, of course, it’s also her constituency. Could the statement also outline how much training cover is available across Wales? Obviously, this is on offer from a number of organisations, sometimes at no cost, but it would be helpful to know where the geographical gaps are, if you like. Could it also update us on the ambulance trust’s mapping of where defibrillators are currently found?

In connection with this, could I ask for a second statement from the education Secretary about the uptake of voluntary teaching of emergency life-saving skills in schools? Members from all parties were very supportive of my call in the last Assembly to make the age-appropriate teaching of these skills compulsory in schools and I hope that the new Members, as well as the education Secretary, will be as enthusiastic as I still am. Thank you.

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Suzy Davies does raise a very important point. There is a vast amount of voluntary activity going on across Wales. There is a strategic approach and, actually, that strategic approach includes the third sector as well as the statutory sector in terms of emergency response. It is prevention, it is about training and, particularly, in terms of life-saving techniques being spread through education, the Cabinet Secretary for Education is already indicating that she would like to respond, so I think it looks as though we could move on a joint statement from Cabinet Secretaries and Ministers on this issue.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

I thank the Minister.

6. 3. Statement: The Diamond Review of Higher Education and Student Finance Arrangements in Wales

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

We now move to a statement by the Cabinet Secretary for Education on the Diamond review of higher education and student finance arrangements. I call on the Cabinet Secretary, Kirsty Williams.

Kirsty Williams (Liberal Democrat, Brecon and Radnorshire)

Thank you very much. Llywydd, I have today published the Government's response to the recommendations from the review of higher education and student finance in Wales. I am keen to reiterate my appreciation for the time and effort that Professor Diamond and his panel members, from across the political parties, sector and industry, dedicated to the review between April 2014 and this summer.

Since publication of the report in September, there has been much interest from Assembly committees, parents, students, and the wider higher education sector, including policy and funding experts.

I welcome that interest, scrutiny and constructive engagement. Indeed, observers from elsewhere in the UK suggest that we in Wales are leading the way in fundamentally shifting higher education finance towards a progressive, stable and sustainable system. Therefore, I have given a great deal of thought to the practical implications of implementing the review panel’s recommendations, seeking to ensure stability and sustainability. I’m clear that Wales needs a sustainable and progressive higher education funding settlement that supports students when they most need it, and enables our universities to compete internationally.

As I made clear on 27 September, Cabinet endorsed the principles contained within the report, but our response builds on our key established principles: that we maintain the principle of universalism within a progressive system, that we have a whole-system approach, that investment is shared between Government and those who directly benefit, that we enhance accessibility, tackling barriers such as living costs, and that student support is portable across the UK. I can confirm that, subject to full Treasury approval, we will implement changes to student support funding, covering full-time, part-time undergraduate and postgraduate students from 2018-19.

In the context of austerity in the United Kingdom, the fundamental shift to improved and progressive maintenance support across modes and levels of study can only be achieved by releasing funds currently used to provide tuition fee grants for full-time undergraduates. The Diamond report modelled a range of household income thresholds for those eligible for means-tested support. We have decided to go with the proposal to set the upper threshold at £59,200. This is an increase of around £8,000 on current arrangements for means-testing. I believe this to be a fair and sustainable arrangement. Under this proposed system, we expect more than a third of Welsh students to be eligible for the maximum grant and the average student to receive £7,000 a year in grant support. The revised system of support will mean that students will receive the equivalent of the national living wage during term time while they study, with a maximum level of support of over £9,000 a year for full-time students and a pro-rata version available for part-time students.

I am proud to confirm the Government’s intention to deliver the first system in the UK and be an international model of best practice that is consistent, progressive and fair in its support for full and part-time undergraduates and for postgraduate students.

As set out in my agreement with the First Minister and our programme for government, we are committed to promoting and enhancing both academic and vocational routes into and through further and higher education, including both full and part-time opportunities that will benefit learners of all ages, employers and communities. Our response recognises the consensus that it is the fear of not being able to meet your daily living costs, rather than the prospect of paying back loans once in work, that is the bigger issue for accessing and progressing through higher education. Securing the stability and sustainability of our higher education and student finance arrangements is crucial. I can therefore confirm that we are implementing, with only minor modifications, the full Diamond package, whilst also delivering a future dividend for further and higher education. This, of course, would be subject to normal Government budget negotiations and process.

It is important that we do not implement policy that would have unintended consequences. Therefore, there are some areas where I believe it is sensible for the Government to pause and consider the next steps. These areas include recommendations on the Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol, which need to be considered alongside the recently announced task and finish group, the implementation of monthly maintenance payments, incentives for graduates, the University of Wales Press, and the sharing of risk between Government, institution and student. Through the consultation exercise we invite those with specific interest to engage on these matters.

Similarly, given the current economic climate, there are a number of recommendations with financial implications that will need to be considered as part of future budgeting rounds. These include recommendations on quality research funding, knowledge transfer, the Learned Society of Wales, and the unhypothecated amount allocated to the Higher Education Funding Council for Wales’s recurrent budget. However, I will be asking my officials to work with HEFCW so that they can gain an understanding of the projected financial implications for their budget.

To ensure stability and sustainability, I have decided to maintain the current intensity threshold on support for part-time study. However, we will continue to work with the sector on ways to support and promote study at lower intensities. We will also maintain current equivalent or lower qualification controls, but commit to exploring extending those subjects and priority areas that will be exempt. Alongside publication of our full response, we have published a consultation on student support funding. I welcome the consensus that greeted the principles of Professor Diamond’s report, and, in that spirit, Presiding Officer, I now seek views on the practical implementation of our proposals.

Llywydd, it was the 'pence of the poor' that helped found and build our great civic universities. It was the great reforming progressive individuals, communities and Governments that helped open up higher education through institutions such as the Open University. It is the work of NUS Wales, through their ‘The Pound in Your Pocket’ research, that was bold enough to address student funding priorities head-on. And it this Government now—working, I hope, with parties across the Chamber—that will secure a stable and sustainable higher education funding and student finance package that can help transform the lives of our citizens and of our nation.

Darren Millar (Conservative, Clwyd West)

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary, for your statement. I think it's impressive that you've managed to turn around a Welsh Government response to such a hefty report as the Diamond review report in such a short period of time. I do welcome, as well, the consultation that will now flow from your response; I think it's entirely appropriate that there’s a wider opportunity for public discussion on the proposals that you have indeed outlined.

I am a little surprised that you've claimed that the Welsh Government is implementing with only minor modifications the full Diamond package. Certainly, you're stepping in the direction of implementing the Diamond package, but there's no doubt in my mind that the significant change that you're making to the upper income threshold for support by reducing it by £20,000 is going to have an impact on the squeezed middle, which Professor Diamond was determined to protect, and, indeed, the other panellists were determined to protect as well. And, in addition to that, you are of course rejecting a number of recommendations in terms of apprenticeships and higher-cost postgraduate course teaching subsidies. So, let's be real about this: it's not a wholehearted endorsement of the Diamond report; there are actually some things that you’re not going to immediately implement, and there are some things that you're downright rejecting.

Now, that's not to say that I don't welcome much of what you have said and much of what's in the Welsh Government response. I welcome the fact that you're looking at implementing this in the academic year commencing 2018. I think that that's an important deadline that we need to work to. I welcome the fact that you’re trying to get the system onto a more sustainable footing, and, of course, the reduction in that upper earnings threshold is an important way of achieving that. I understand, Cabinet Secretary, that the change in that threshold will save the Welsh Government around £40 million per annum once the proposal is fully implemented, and, of course, that saving is on top of the £48.25 million on an annual basis that Professor Diamond's original recommendations said they were going to save. And I wonder where that £88.25 million is going to be reinvested. The First Minister made a very clear commitment that none of that cash would be lost to the HE budget. I suspect that he’s going to be trying to sidestep some of those commitments that he’s made, because you and I both know, Cabinet Secretary, that we need to see some more investment into our FE institutions as well, and in terms of widening access to FE and giving some support to students in our further education system as well, particularly if that vision that we all share in this Chamber, which is to give further education parity with higher education, is to be absolutely realised. I'm also very pleased, of course, to hear the confirmation of support arrangements for part-time study and, indeed, the support for postgraduates as well. I think that they’re very important commitments.

You mentioned that there’s going to be a working group that is going to have a look at this issue of sustainability and whether to maintain the link in the future to the national living wage. I think that that’s very important—that those links are maintained—because what we don’t want to see is inflation eating away into the opportunities that students can have to have this support in the future. So, there has to be some way of index linking this support to make sure that it’s going to be there in full in the future.

But I am a little bit concerned to read in your response of wanting to control student numbers and regulate student numbers. That implies that there are going to be caps on students who are going to be eligible for support in the future, which will limit access to higher education and indeed will limit learner choice, which I think is very regrettable indeed. Can I also ask you, Minister, whether that is what you’re hoping to achieve—some sort of cap? Who is going to sit on these working groups making those decisions? Will they be cross-party? That’s been the nature of the approach to Diamond so far. I think it’s important that we maintain some cross-party working on these issues, and I would be very happy to nominate a Conservative representative should you give us an opportunity to.

I’m disappointed to see no guarantee of funding of a minimum of £5.8 million to Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol in the next financial year. I know that there’s a review, which is ongoing at the moment, but that is a recommendation that you said you wanted to consult on, and you couldn’t guarantee that that money would be there in the future. I heard what you said in your statement. Perhaps you can just clarify what the situation will be in the next financial year and also going forward. I would appreciate that very much indeed.

I’m also a little bit concerned about the comments in relation to the intensity threshold, because one thing that I know that both you and I are passionate about is making sure that all the people of Wales who want access to higher education opportunities, including those who might have to, because of their situations or because of disabilities, for example, have lower-intensity courses. I wonder whether the outcome of your decision not to progress with lowering that threshold, as was the recommendation of Professor Diamond, will have a disproportionate impact on those individuals that may be disabled or perhaps have some learning needs or disabilities.

So, I do welcome the direction of travel. I think there’s an awful lot that is good in the response that you have published today, but I do think we need some clarity on these important issues, and I look forward to hearing from you.

Kirsty Williams (Liberal Democrat, Brecon and Radnorshire)

Thank you very much, Darren. Could I begin by acknowledging the point you made about how quickly we’ve been able to turn this around? This is down to the incredible hard work by officials in the department. They have worked at this pace because we need to move to a more sustainable situation for funding both students and our institutions as quickly as possible. I want to commend the hard work that they have put into this.

The Member, Presiding Officer, says that we are saving money by not implementing the higher threshold of £80,000. Of course, that is a notional saving. That money doesn’t exist. That was a suggestion of where the threshold should be, so it’s not correct for the Member to say that this is a saving that has accrued.

Let me be absolutely clear: when I published the Diamond report in September, I wanted to secure a stable and sustainable student support and higher education funding system for our country. I have analysed the latest projections and I have had to take into consideration cohort protection, expected growth in the national wage and inflationary forecasts, whilst delivering for part-time, full-time and postgraduate students, and I’ve had to do that in the round. That means there has had to be some give in the system, but let me be absolutely clear: one third of students in Wales will receive the full package of support of over £9,000. Seventy per cent of students in Wales will be in receipt of some means-tested grant under this system, and the average student will be in receipt of approximately £7,000. I have to say, Darren, considering what your party has done to maintenance grants across the border, which are no longer available, this represents a good deal for Welsh students in the current climate that we find ourselves in.

Can I turn to the issue of the two recommendations that have been rejected? The first is around apprenticeships. The apprenticeship levy and apprenticeship policy is being developed by my Cabinet colleague and we have a very clear way forward on how we will meet this Government’s commitment to additional apprenticeships in Wales. That is being developed separate to these proposals. With regard to higher cost, the Welsh Government does not intend to regulate post-graduate provision. So, together with that principle and the lack of available data about the actual cost of teaching, we don’t think it’s sustainable to provide additional funding in that way at the moment, but the consultation exercise is there to engage with people around some of these issues.

It is not my intention to introduce caps but, at the same time, I can’t take anything off the table in the future working of that group. The group will be made up of officials from within Government, but it will also have external advice from the sector and from those people who have a direct interest in this. I will consider further whether I will extend that invitation to political parties, but I will need them to demonstrate some in-depth knowledge of the workings of the HE sector before I consider that further.

Can I be absolutely clear about the future of the Coleg? This Government has taken the decision to remove funding of the Coleg from HEFCW, actually to fund the Coleg directly from Welsh Government, which we will do to the tune of £5 million in the new financial year. It is a matter that was welcomed recently in committee—I appreciate that you weren’t there. This matter was recently welcomed in the committee and has been welcomed by the Coleg themselves.

Intensity levels—we have agreed to look at the intensity levels starting at 25 per cent, but the consultation exercise specifically asks about how we could regulate lower intensity levels in the future. But we are starting—for the first time, we will have parity of esteem for our part-time students. That has not been achieved before. It is not available anywhere else in the UK. In fact, I haven’t yet been able to find a country in Europe that provides this package across all modes of study. We are leading the way. I can tell you, officials from the Scottish Government and the Northern Irish Government have already been on the phone asking how the Welsh Government is delivering this innovative package of support.

With regards to disability, I want to make it absolutely clear: we will continue to fund specialist payments for disability that are available under the current system. They will continue under the new system.

Llyr Gruffydd (Plaid Cymru, North Wales)

May I thank you, Cabinet Secretary, for your statement, and reiterate the thanks to Professor Diamond and the group that has been preparing this report and the recommendations?

I welcome your statement. It’s good to see the process moving towards implementation of those recommendations. That is something I’m sure we would all welcome. I also welcome the central point that you highlighted there, namely that full-time, part-time and postgraduate study will be considered equally, and will have access to similar support, and that will create a more comprehensible landscape for many people, where very often there has been some divergence, which can lead to confusion and complexity.

I welcome many aspects, particularly the pilot that you mentioned to look at the practicality of extending support to students studying in the European Union. That is certainly in keeping with one of the policy demands of Plaid Cymru in the election some months ago, and perhaps you could expand a little on how you intend to introduce that pilot.

I also welcome the commitment that you’ve given in your report to vocational and technical education at a higher level. Of course, there is a feeling in this Assembly that we do need to enhance the status of vocational education across the spectrum, and I assume that this is the first of many steps in order to achieve that, and that is to be welcomed.

I also welcome the fact that you are looking at a Welsh model of the Student Loans Company, because the current situation I feel is a barrier to movement at the pace that we would like to see, and it makes it difficult for us in Wales to respond to a changing environment because of external forces, and it does create a difficult situation.

It is a significant announcement, in many ways, and, as we are talking about scoping alternative options at the moment, perhaps you could expand on any more detailed timetables that you have in mind. Moving toward monthly payment and support for those with specific needs are all aspects to be welcomed.

You’ve stated, and you’ve stated previously, that you want to continue to look at the level of fees that HE institutions can charge here in Wales, which has been capped at £9,000 at the moment, or £9,250, of course, in England. In light of financial challenges—and we are very aware of those challenges—and the fact that the institutions are operating in a competitive market, could you actually tell us what factors will influence your considerations when you look at the fee level that you have in place? Because there is a risk that the funding gap between institutions in Wales and England could widen. There’s a possible perception that the quality of courses in Wales—that because they’re cheaper they’re not as good, and some would say that there may be a competitive advantage to having different fees. Who knows? But, essentially, do you think that it’s inevitable, because of the current climate, that, if they do increase fees in England at some point, they will have to be increased in Wales, or are you considering alternative models? Because it’s difficult to see how you can withstand such a move, in many ways.

Now, of course, it wouldn’t be a statement on the Diamond report unless I raised the need to actually attract students back to Wales and to retain Welsh students here and the need to create incentives. You say in your response to the recommendations that you will continue to look at the options and encourage ideas, encouraging people to respond to the consultation. But, in looking at the consultation document, there is no specific reference to creating incentives to attract students back to Wales, as far as I can see. So, I don’t know if that’s an error, or whether you intend to create some sort of separate consultation process for that. Perhaps you could tell us.

Finally, the focus of the debate on sustainability has been looked at through a financial prison, mainly. Can I ask you what consideration has been given to the access points tariff to HE institutions in Wales? Has the Government actually carried out any analysis of this and is there any broader significance to this for the sector? Because most have seen a decline in this metric, with three of our institutions now with an average of less than 300, against a background where A-level results are going in the other direction. I’d be interested to know what influence that is having on the sustainability of the sector.

Kirsty Williams (Liberal Democrat, Brecon and Radnorshire)

Llyr, can I thank you for your comments this afternoon and your willingness to share ideas about how we can take this area of policy forward?

With regard to the pilot, I don’t want to put a limit on the aspirations of any Welsh student. Your colleague sitting next to you will have benefitted hugely, I’m sure, from his time spent at Harvard, and I think giving opportunities for more Welsh people to study in institutions across the world to create that outward-looking nation that I believe that we are—I want to be able to facilitate that where I can. So, we will be working up a pilot scheme to allow this package of support not only to be portable across the whole of the UK, but to look to see what we can do to fund students who may want to go to Harvard, or the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, or the California Institute of Technology or the Sorbonne—all of the great institutions that exist around the world. It is part of Wales being an outward-looking nation, and I think that’s really important.

With regard to FE, the Government’s response today confirms that there will be additional funding allocated to improve the strategic collaboration between FE and HE, and that includes our shared priorities that are reflected in the budget for next year—funds to develop investment in higher-level apprenticeships, for instance, which I believe are important, and also money to increase FE colleges’ capacity to deliver at level 4 and level 5. I have, in my remit letter to the HEFCW, stated how much importance I place on being able to ensure that there is use of resources across both sectors to encourage that level of collaboration.

And, Presiding Officer, if you would forgive me an indulge me for just a second, I would like to take this opportunity, because I don’t believe it has been done in the Chamber today, to congratulate Welsh colleges, students and employers for their outstanding performance at the WorldSkills UK Show this weekend. We—I shouldn’t say ‘wiped the floor’, that’s not very parliamentary—but we were outstanding. Welsh students were absolutely outstanding in their achievements. And I wish them very well as they go on to the next stage in the world competition. That demonstrates that we have the potential here in Wales to be outstanding in these particular areas.

With regard to incentives, I’d like to make clear the response confirms that Welsh Government will continue to introduce legislation that will mean that every student who takes out a maintenance loan from Welsh Ministers will be eligible for up to £1,500, to be written off the balance of their loans, once they start repayment. So, again, that is a benefit to Welsh students that is not available to students anywhere else. So, that’s an incentive, and an extra benefit for Welsh students.

As you and I both know, it’s slightly more tricky to develop a scheme of how we could incentivise students, but I’m grateful for your engagement in this, and the information that you have supplied to me, which officials are currently considering. But we are working across Government in looking at how we can introduce this. So, for instance, my Cabinet colleague for health has talked about incentives for doctors, to be able to recruit additional doctors, and we continue to have conversations, about how we can do this in terms of nurses. So, those conversations are happening in Government at the moment and I will continue to work with you to look to see what more we could do in that regard.

You asked about fee levels, which, of course, are difficult and controversial. I will continue to review the maximum fee level of tuition fees in Wales, taking account of the financial stability of our institutions, how we maintain that competitiveness, which, as you say, is absolutely crucial, in an international context, and the impact upon students themselves. You asked what other factors I am considering—those are the three factors that will continue to guide my thoughts in this particular area.

With regard to tariff, I understand the point the Member is making. This is one of the reasons why we need to move to a different system of how we support the sector in the round, because we cannot afford for Welsh universities to fall behind—we need them to be the very best that they can be, and that is a job for us in Government, but it is also a job for the sector themselves. And I look forward to seeing their HE strategy that is currently being developed by HEFCW at the moment.

Mark Reckless (UKIP, South Wales East)

I’m also grateful to the Cabinet Secretary for her statement. She says she hopes to work with parties across the Chamber, at least ones she deemed to have in-depth knowledge of the sector. She also said she welcomed the consensus that greeted the principles of Professor Diamond’s report.

I’d like to just then start on two areas where I was very pleased to hear what she said just now. I think, with part-time students, the parity of esteem and support is, indeed, as she said, unparalleled, and, in principle, I can’t see the arguments the other way. And the fact that this will only happen in Wales, but not anywhere else, is something I think we can all rightly be proud of.

Second, in my party we had something in our manifesto where we proposed a £6 million bursary fund for the best and brightest students in Wales to qualify and have support at the best institutions across the globe, not just in the UK. So, to hear her speak, at least possibly, of support being available for people who might go to the Massachusetts Institute of Technology or the California Institute of Technology, for example, was, I think, very, very encouraging, and I credit her for that.

Where we I think have potential difficulty, at least, with the principles set out with the Diamond report—or, at least, how they may be implemented—was when we discussed universalism within a progressive system. We’re concerned, potentially, that that means large amounts of money being given to students from well-off families, when, across Wales, there are greater needs from people who are less well-off and don’t go to university. But compared to the previous statement she made, where Diamond had said £80,000 or £81,000 would be the amount that people could get money up to—we thought that was extraordinarily high, and I detected some discomfort on the Labour benches in parts as well. And when you are giving what you describe as a means-tested grant, all the way up the income scale to £80,000 or £81,000, I think that becomes very difficult to justify, so it’s extremely welcome that she’s reduced that upper threshold to £59,200.

I thought Darren Millar’s comments were quite revealing on this. He seemed unhappy with that reduction, and described this band of families earning between £60,000 and £80,000 as the squeezed middle. I think the definition of other parties in the Assembly of the squeezed middle may be a little different. [Interruption.] Sorry, there were a number of interventions there, which I haven’t quite caught—

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

If you’d like to continue, please.

Mark Reckless (UKIP, South Wales East)

I will continue. I wonder if I might ask the Cabinet Secretary, in light of that—the £1,000 that was previously described as being given across the board to families that earn even more than £59,200 now, or £80,000 or £81,000 before, is that still within the system proposed? It wasn’t mentioned in her statement here. And secondly, can I just clarify that this £1,500 loan write-off she described as well—is that, again, something that goes across the board, irrespective of how high up the earnings spectrum families may be?

Could I also just raise the issue of paying students, or giving a maintenance grant equivalent to the national living wage? Of course, the national living wage only applies to people who are aged over 25, and for 18 to 20-year-olds, the largest cohort of students, the minimum wage is £5.55. So, why does she think that students are so much more valuable and deserving that they should get, I think, £7.20, whereas 18 to 20-year-olds, generally, should get £5.55, and people in the first year of an apprenticeship should only get £3.40? Is that really parity of esteem?

Finally, she talks about a stable and sustainable system, and, of course, that’s a worthy ambition, and then she says ‘subject to full Treasury approval’. But she will be as aware as I am that there are some issues there, and, in particular, what is the resource accounting and budgeting that will be agreed? How much of these now much higher loans will the Treasury determine are likely not to be paid off, and therefore be written off from the perspective of the taxpayer, and therefore, as education is devolved, should be a charge against the Welsh Government? Currently, we have a significantly lower RAB than England, because our loans are lower, although Professor Diamond suggested perhaps it was too low and might need to be raised. I just wonder when the Treasury looks at these figures, and I suspect with a much more sceptical eye than Professor Diamond and others from the sector may have looked at it during their review, whether they will query how much will get written off, and whether the RAB she is presuming really will be high enough. They may ask, if you have an area where wages are relatively low, where you’re offering maintenance grants that are national living wage only available elsewhere to over-25s, and where perhaps people, given the wages in the local areas, may not expect to pay off much or any of the debt when they’re older, whether take-up will actually be significantly higher because people find the opportunity of getting that maintenance grant particularly attractive, and whether that would lead, perhaps, to the Treasury at least taking the view that write-offs, and therefore the RAB, will need to be significantly higher than she allows? And does she recognise the danger, at least, that if she sets up this system, it may all work out rather more expensive than she assumes?

Kirsty Williams (Liberal Democrat, Brecon and Radnorshire)

Thank you, Presiding Officer, and thank you to Mr Reckless for his comments. I think maybe he was offering himself up as a potential expert to our group that is going to review this. Well, at least I will get his advice for free, unlike the MP for Clacton. [Interruption.]

On the issue of the £1,000, it is my intention to introduce that universal £1,000 payment to all Welsh students. It is in line with the principles outlined in the report from Professor Diamond, and this Government’s commitment to understanding that higher education is a joint endeavour. The student undoubtedly gets something from studying at a higher level, but so does our nation, and I believe it is only right in that case that we contribute to some of the costs. Let’s be absolutely clear: the National Union of Students Wales have said that this £1,000, payable at the beginning of each academic year, is invaluable to helping students address some of the unexpected—not the unexpected but the hidden costs of setting yourself up in university. And therefore, it is very much welcomed by the NUS that this provision remains within the package.

With regard to the partial write-off, that has nothing to do with family income, it is to do with the fact that the student, at that time, reaches the threshold for paying back their loan. So, it has nothing to do with family income at all, it is to do with the fact that the student has reached the £21,000 threshold that triggers repayments for loans.

With regard to the disparity between students and the living wage, I can’t change the fact that the UK Government don’t have parity of esteem for workers who are 16, 17, 18 or 19. I wish I could do something about that, but it is not within my competency. As I’ve said, Diamond was very clear, we need to make sure that students have access to the amount of resources that they need to live on, independently of their parents. Across the border in England, parents are expected to hand over and to contribute to the costs hugely. This means that Welsh students will be independent, because they will be able to get the full amount of support on which they can live, either entirely through a maintenance grant for our poorest students; partially for most, over 70 per cent of our students; or a combination of a £1,000 contribution and a loan. And I think that is really, really important.

With regard to the Treasury, my Cabinet colleague the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Local Government has formally written to the Treasury. We’re yet to have a formal response, but the Treasury have been very helpful to date and have indicated their full support for the proposals going forward, and I expect that to be confirmed in writing shortly.

Lynne Neagle (Labour, Torfaen)

Can I thank the Cabinet Secretary for her statement and give a very warm welcome to the content of that statement today? In particular, I’m delighted that this Welsh Government is going to be delivering a system that is consistent, progressive and fair in its support for full and part-time undergraduates and for postgraduate students. I also welcome the speed with which the Cabinet Secretary has moved to respond to the recommendations, and would like to place on record my thanks to Professor Diamond and his team, not just for his work, but also for attending the Children, Young People and Education Committee to give evidence recently.

I just have a few questions. You indicated that you would be going out to consultation. Can you say a little bit more about how that will work, and in particular whether you will be consulting with young people? One of the features of the Diamond review was that he felt that students with particular challenges and needs should have particular recognition, and there were three groups in particular. The first is students with experience of the care system, and I welcome what you’ve said previously about young people who’ve been in care having entitlement to the full maintenance grant, but can you also tell us how you will respond to the other things he recommended in relation to care leavers, in particular giving them the flexibility to transfer credits, allowing them the opportunity to have multiple starts et cetera? The other area was students with disabilities, where he recommends further work be done with the Treasury. Can you confirm that you’ll be taking that forward? The other area, then, was students who are also parents, which is clearly really important in these difficult economic times. Can you say a little bit more about how you will be responding to those particular recommendations? Thank you.

Kirsty Williams (Liberal Democrat, Brecon and Radnorshire)

Can I thank the Chair of the education, young people and children’s committee for her response to the report? I, too, am grateful for Professor Diamond’s continued expertise in this area. He could have just handed over the report and gone back to doing the very important work that he does, and I’m very grateful to him for coming back to committees to give full explanations, and I understand that he will be at the all-party group on higher education tonight, and I would encourage Members to go along to hear from Professor Diamond.

Can I take this opportunity to confirm that it is my intention to legislate to ensure that those children who have experience of the care sector and who have been looked after will have access to the full maintenance grant? This Government is working very, very hard to address the educational inequalities that exist for children who have been in the care system. That’s why we’ve introduced the pupil deprivation grant to support those children’s education. We know that they have been considerably under-represented studying at a higher level. We want to make sure that, right the way through the education system, we’re putting in specific support to enable those children to reach their full potential, both in school and in going on to study at a higher level.

Support that is currently available, for instance, to students with a disability and students with childcare costs will continue under the new system. What I’m also keen to look at is what we can do better to support carers and those who have had caring responsibilities in their lives, and how that may have impacted on their ability to access higher education or to stay in higher education once they were there. The consultation document does ask for some specific ideas about how best we can identify those individuals and how best we can support them going forward.

The consultation obviously opens today. I would like responses back by 14 February, Valentine’s Day, so I hope that they will all be charming and attractive and will have fallen in love with the proposals that we are outlining here by the Government today.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Can I thank the Cabinet Secretary for her statement this afternoon and also for the work done by Sir Ian Diamond and his team and put that on the record? It’s clearly important that we address the issues for higher education and support for those students. Can I also put on record once again my thanks to her predecessor, Huw Lewis, who initiated all this and basically saw this start to come through and the Cabinet Secretary has now taken it through to its fruition?

Cabinet Secretary, a couple of points: I welcome the concept of the collaboration between HE and FE and it’s important we have that collaboration, particularly in relation to ensuring parity of esteem and status for higher apprenticeship courses. I think that’s crucial, but you also talk about levels 4 and 5 and possibly level 6 in FE institutions, so I can see that as also being welcome. But can you provide us with a bit more detail on perhaps Welsh Government discussions with FEIs in relation to the staffing issues? It’s important at level 6 that staff are allowed to undertake research that informs the level 6. So, discussions on the staffing issues that might arise as a consequence of that aspect.

In relation to part-time students, can you clarify as to whether in 2018-19 it will be applied to all part-time students irrespective of what level they’re currently studying at, not just new entrants into a programme, because part-time students have never had this support? So, a person who has undertaken perhaps the start of a second year on a part-time basis has never benefited from any support. Are we going to treat them equally with anyone who is starting a course from fresh, because with part-time, as you know, some students may take several years to actually complete the course because of their other commitments? I think it’s important that we understand who will be able to benefit from this in 2018-19.

We’re also looking to expand to perhaps part-time postgraduate courses because the postgraduate taught element is for full time, I understand, from what you’re saying, but there are some part-time postgraduate courses also offered. Again, some of those may be individuals who are seeking to gain further qualifications from perhaps a time when they had previously studied and wanted to get back into their work, but they are now looking to have a higher level qualification because that’s the next agenda for them.

Personally, I’m disappointed in the principle ‘only concept of quality research’. I recognise the challenges, however, that Brexit will place upon research funding, but I think it’s important that you confirm your commitment to the Sêr Cymru programme and others, and any successor programmes to that, so that universities do understand that the Welsh Government is committed to research and quality research because it’s going to be a tough time in the years ahead for universities, as we see the issues of Brexit and perhaps the loss of some funding—not necessarily, but possible loss of some funding—to research areas, because we still don’t know how the research councils will operate in the years ahead of us either.

Finally, on the incentives to return to Wales, I take from your comments today that actually it’s for students who are returning to Wales to get that £1,500 off their loan. Can you look at perhaps the challenges facing a variety of subject areas because there are some subject areas students follow that mean they just can’t get work in Wales? Even if they want to come back to Wales, they are restricted because perhaps there are no opportunities in Wales. Can you look at the opportunities perhaps to help encourage students from a wider range of subjects to benefit from the scheme, not just simply because they come back to Wales to work? They could be actually benefiting us, developing skills and wanting to come back in the future. We need to explore all those.

Kirsty Williams (Liberal Democrat, Brecon and Radnorshire)

Can I thank David for his questions? Can I absolutely clarify that all Welsh students who have been in receipt of a loan via Welsh Ministers, regardless of whether they come back to Wales, are able to apply for that partial write-off? That is not contingent on you coming back to Wales. That is just an additional benefit that Welsh students have: when they reach the threshold to begin to pay back their loans, they can apply for a partial write-off, and that’s regardless of where they study.

Myself, Alun Davies and Julie James work together collaboratively to ensure that staff in further education colleges have the skills and the opportunities. Part of the money that’s being made available in the forthcoming budget to look at closer collaboration between HE and FE is designed to do just that, and to look at supporting research in FE institutions as well, where that is appropriate. We will be looking as a Government to outline further work in this area when we launch the Government’s response to the Hazelkorn report, which we hope to do in the new year.

With regard to who this will be available to, I’m afraid to say, David, it will be available to new entrants on that particular date. If we suddenly say to part of the cohort halfway through the course, ‘You can have a different regime’, it would just be absolutely impossible to manage. We’re trying to signal now, very clearly, cohort protection for those who are already in the system, including those who are applying to university this year, and to offer real clarity so that when people do apply for courses, they know under which system they will be treated. It is a challenge enough to create a system within the Student Loans Company to introduce this new regime. If we start asking them to have retrospectively different systems, allowing individuals to opt for different options, we would end up in great difficulty. And we don’t want to cause any more difficulty than we need to the Student Loans Company that sometimes, as we have only recently seen, finds it difficult to cope with different systems in different parts of the country.

Can I absolutely say that the quality of research in our HE institutions is absolutely key? It will become much more challenging as a result of Brexit, but part of the work of the HE group that I have set up to look at the impact of Brexit is actively looking at what we can do to protect quality research in our institutions going forward.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Finally, Huw Irranca-Davies.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Diolch, Lywydd. Can I welcome the statement in its entirety? It is a matter of judgment and some anticipation on the fees level, but I accept not only the high principles but the bulk of the substance of Professor Sir Ian Diamond’s recommendations as hugely welcome, and the comment made by my colleague here on my left about bringing this forward in a timely way is also well made. I congratulate her on the amazing serendipity of the timing as well, and her shameless plug of the cross-party group on higher education that is, indeed, tonight meeting with Professor Sir Ian Diamond, and we can discuss this further.

This is an issue of having fairness and sustainability at the heart of our higher education system for students, for the taxpayer and also the fairness and resilience of our higher education sector. But on that matter of fairness, perhaps I could ask her for her thoughts on how the Student Loans Company itself sits alongside that, and whether she does share any of my concerns over the direction of travel with the Student Loans Company? Only this week, an amendment was put forward to the Higher Education and Research Bill to try and stop the fine tuning that was done in the budget last year by Chancellor George Osborne, which will lead to repayments by higher education students across the land being something to the tune of £360 per person, on average, more expensive when they start repaying their loan. This was not what was promised to them, and there is a fear with the Student Loans Company and with the Chancellor that unless these matters are fixed, and unless the promises are delivered to our students and they can trust in the Student Loans Company, that undermines the perception of trust, fairness and integrity.

So, this set of proposals today is good, solid and is well worked, and I will look forward to, on Valentine’s Day, putting my submission in as well. It will make up for the Valentine’s Day I spent with my wife the first time I was elected for Ogmore in 2002. But does she share those concerns about the Student Loans Company, and does she hope that today, in this budget statement, the current—[Interruption.] No, she was with me. [Laughter.] My wife was with me. Does she hope that in today’s budget announcement that decision is overturned and fairness is delivered for those students?

Kirsty Williams (Liberal Democrat, Brecon and Radnorshire)

I think sometimes, Presiding Officer, we all give the Chamber a bit too much information. [Laughter.] Or, as my teenaged daughter would refer to it: ‘TMI, mum, TMI’.

Can I thank the Member for his comments and say how glad I am that the all-party group exists? I think we do need to have those opportunities for Members, our institutions and those interested in this very important area for a forum where we can get together and discuss these important issues. So, I’m grateful for the initiative that he’s shown in setting up the group, and I’m sure Professor Diamond will have plenty to say to everybody this evening.

I am aware of the controversy in England about the UK Government’s decision to freeze repayments for a five-year period. The Welsh Government did not make a future commitment on the level of its repayment thresholds for students taking out loans since 2012. Whilst the Welsh Government is able to set its own repayment thresholds, we would need to work through the practical and financial implications of decoupling what is currently an England and Wales repayment collection system. That would be extremely complex and difficult to accomplish in a short time frame. However, I would be delighted if the Government in Westminster decided that it would like to increase the repayment threshold to fulfil its prior commitments and we would be happy to amend our thresholds accordingly.

With regard to the Student Loans Company, this has been an issue of huge importance for me since I took office. There have been problems previously with the relationship between the Welsh Government and the Student Loans Company, which has restricted the ability for Welsh Government to move in the policy directions that it would like to. That is tantamount to Welsh students being discriminated against, which is not acceptable to me. I must say that I have met, spoken to and written to the Student Loans Company on a number of occasions. In fact, I’ve a senior official at the SLC today, working on plans for the implementation of this particular scheme, and I am confident that we will be able to deliver it. But these are things that I am keeping a very close eye on and will continue to reflect on to ensure that Welsh students are getting the best deal that they can.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Thank you very much to the Cabinet Secretary.

7. 4. Statement: Rent Smart Wales

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The next item on our agenda is the statement by the Cabinet Secretary for Communities and Children: Rent Smart Wales. I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Communities and Children. Carl Sargeant.

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

Thank you, Presiding Officer. On the eve of the commencement of the enforcement powers, it is important to remind ourselves of the purpose of Rent Smart Wales. Our Housing (Wales) Act 2014 included groundbreaking legislation designed to improve the private rented sector through the mandatory registration and licensing of all private landlords and agents.

The sector is playing an increasingly important part in our housing system. It provides homes for many people, including some vulnerable people. There are many good landlords and lettings agents, but unfortunately the sector suffers from a bad reputation caused by the practices of others. Registration will identify, for the first time, the landlords who let properties and where those properties are. Licensing includes a fit-and-proper-person test and, importantly, training for those who directly let and manage properties. Ensuring landlords and agents are fully aware of their responsibilities provides greater security for tenants and helps raise standards, making the sector a more attractive proposition.

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

The first year has been deliberately light touch, focusing on awareness raising and enabling landlords and agents to take the necessary steps to comply with the legislation. Whilst there is more to do, the achievement in the first 12 months is significant. By 9.00 p.m. yesterday, over 55,000 private landlords had registered and another 12,700 had started the registration process. Compare this to the previous voluntary accreditation scheme—after several years, only around 3,000 private landlords were accredited.

Not all landlords agree with the legislation or see the need for it. However, 96 per cent of those attending the training sessions have said it would make them better landlords, which is precisely what we are trying to achieve. There are benefits for landlords and tenants alike. Tomorrow, the final elements of the legislation come into force, which include the enforcement powers. They will reduce the scope for poor landlords to neglect their responsibilities, and for rogue landlords to abuse their position without fear of consequences. Ideally, we wouldn’t need enforcement. However, we know some private landlords will deliberately flout the law. This group will be targeted and if they fail to comply, they will face the consequences, including fines, fixed penalties, restrictions on evicting tenants, and rent stopping and repayment orders. Ultimately, they could be prevented from directly managing property.

Recent months have seen a huge rush to register, Deputy Llywydd, currently averaging around 1,100 landlords a day. As a result, Rent Smart Wales have taken longer than usual to respond to some of those calls and e-mails. I appreciate this has caused concern for some landlords who haven’t been able to complete the registration and licensing process. Rent Smart Wales have said that those who have started the process to comply will not face enforcement action if they’ve done all they reasonably can to comply. But this must not be seen as an excuse to ignore the law. My message to private landlords is clear: you must take action to comply with the requirements of the law. Enforcement action will be used appropriately and proportionally, but a failure to act puts you at risk of action against you.

Some have suggested the date for enforcement should be delayed. This wouldn’t solve anything. Some landlords would simply delay action until the next deadline, and the sooner we have enforcement in place, the sooner we can find and tackle the rogue landlords we seek. It’s also been suggested that the enforcement regime will fail because Rent Smart Wales only has nine enforcement officers. Everyone should realise that Rent Smart Wales also has the support of officers in all our local authorities, who will be proactive locally in encouraging compliance with the requirements. The approach is based on the premise that, for private landlords, ‘compliance is better than conviction’.

So, tomorrow will mark a significant milestone. Within a relatively short time, a huge amount has been achieved. Numbers registered to date are well beyond the estimated 20 per cent expected to have registered at the end of the first year, put forward in the explanatory memorandum of the housing Bill. I want to put on record my thanks to everybody at Rent Smart Wales, to Cardiff city council and to all local authorities for all their work. There is much more to do, Deputy Llywydd, but much has already been achieved.

We’ve arranged for the scheme to be independently evaluated over three years. The first interim report has been published today. Whilst the figures in the report are now out of date, it identifies requirements and potential issues going forward, including steps of relevance to enforcement, and these are in hand. The UK Government and a number of other countries, including Australia, are interested in the lead we’ve taken and are watching developments with interest. For me, the most important thing is what we do with this system so that it does make a positive difference to the lives of people in Wales who rent their home from a private landlord or agent. Thank you.

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Thank you very much. David Melding.

David Melding (Conservative, South Wales Central)

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. Can I start by commending the practice of the Welsh Government to carry out an interim report? This is an important change in public policy, and it seems to me very good practice indeed to thoroughly review the position and then to ask for ways in which the enforcement of the rolling out of the policy could be improved. So, I really think that that is to be welcomed, and I hope that the other Cabinet Secretaries that will be aware of this practice will follow it.

I would like to focus on the interim report, and it’s quite balanced. There are things that clearly have worked well and there are some areas that need some attention. The interim report does say there has been relatively poor planning. Perhaps part of the problem is your predecessor indicated that the Government did only expect about 20 per cent registration by this stage. Well, you’ve done much better than that, but I don’t think that was very helpful. I think that sent the wrong signal, and you would have been better off saying that you expected people, within that year, to meet their obligations.

I also think that the report’s finding that local authorities are somewhat confused about how enforcement will be taken forward, how they relate to Rent Smart Wales—and you did refer to the enforcement officers who are in Rent Smart Wales and then those who will be in the local authorities. How these will combine, how these teams will operate and ensure that appropriate resources are available for enforcement, I do think is a key matter, and that’s been identified in the report.

The awareness of mandatory registration as a requirement was fairly low amongst landlords, and I think the situation we’re in is that—you know, something over 50 per cent have now registered, but I suspect that those that haven’t are the harder-to-reach group, probably those landlords that have fewer properties, and some of them may also be very casual about their obligations. I think the majority of them probably are just unaware. Now, of course, they are responsible for that lack of awareness, but part of the problem, I think, has been that the promotional strategy has been successful in parts but perhaps not very successful at getting to those. So, I think you need to revamp the promotional strategy. This also leads to my point that, if you are now moving to enforcement rather than extending the deadline, I hope you ensure that we’re proportionate in our response because, at this stage, enforcement could just be ensuring they register, and I don’t think we necessarily need to move quickly to sanctions when people may have been unaware and, once it’s brought to their attention more actively, they then register quickly. That should be the aim so that we ensure that this policy change can work effectively.

I was very encouraged also to read that the training that has been provided does seem to have been very effective. I notice that about half of those that took part said it had led directly to an improvement in their own practice. Now, that is a good outcome but the interim report does say that the training needs to be ramped up. We need more of it, and I think that may be also something you will have to tweak and review as you get to those landlords who are less experienced or less used to—with a smaller property portfolio, and not devoting as much time perhaps to the obligations they have. So, I think there are some clear indications in this report about how you can take this policy forward, but I do accept that it’s been an important advance in public policy, and it’s something now where we’re quite prepared to look at the evidence. If it does produce higher standards for the sector, that’s going to be good for the sector, it’s going to be good for landlords and it will be good for tenants. So, we’ll keep a watching brief on this, but I think I can give two cheers at this stage.

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I’m very grateful for the measured comments from David Melding there. I’m very happy with the two cheers. The fact that we’re getting two is better than none, indeed.

The points that the Member raises are important ones. It is about learning lessons from this new programme that we’re introducing, with people often focused on the process of Rent Smart Wales, rather than the reason we introduced it in the first place and the whole process of trying to tackle rogue landlords. Through the housing Bill, when we introduced that, I visited several properties where people were living in very dangerous conditions, and quite inappropriate conditions, under the threat of the landlord of, ‘If you say something, you’ll be out anyway’. I think it’s wholly inappropriate, and that’s why we’ve introduced this law.

In regard to the numbers—interesting when you said ‘the previous Minister’; I think, actually, the 20 per cent explanatory memorandum process was me. [Laughter.] There was a Minister in the interim between that also. But I don’t think we should be shy about the fact. Okay, 20 per cent was an underestimate, but I actually am really pleased that we’ve got over half registration early on in the registration process. From volunteering to be part of the programme with 3,000, now 55,000 properties registered is a huge difference.

Enforcement officers: the Member’s right to raise the issue. That’s now a process where, again, we’ll have to have a measured response to how we take forward enforcement. I’m keen to do that work with people and landlords who may have not been notified. I find it quite hard to believe, but I also understand that there are casual non-professional landlords who may just not be realising they are actually landlords. I need persuading, but, actually, I think the Member is right to understand the level of enforcement and how we would do that.

I’m not convinced about the awareness-raising issues that the Member raised, that we haven’t been professional or a process that we haven’t followed hasn’t been delivered. We’ve seen 55,000 new registrations. Indeed, my colleague Jenny Rathbone saw one of the adverts on the back of a bus in Cardiff, which she constantly reminds me of, which is a good thing. I think what my concern is is that the awareness-raising process has been ignored by some, and that’s what we have to try to understand about, about how do we get into the mindset of individuals who choose to ignore, and then enforcement may follow. But I'm grateful for the Member’s positive comments, and I do hope that the process we've followed, including the interim report and following on with a much more substantial report later on, will give us the evidence that the Member wishes to have clarity and confidence about, and also me as lead Minister on this.

Neil McEvoy (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

God, this Government does like its hype, doesn't it? Including ‘groundbreaking legislation’: well, I think the only thing that I see groundbreaking in this is the complete incompetence with the implementation of this. It talks about a fit-and-proper test and, importantly, training. Well, it's a pity that that is not extended to Ministers. It was estimated that there were 130,000 landlords in Wales. So, if we have only 55,000 signed up, that's less than half. [Interruption.] Now, Minister, you're talking to me when I'm trying to do this reply to your statement, so, if you’d just give me a couple seconds, then you can come back to me, okay? Now, when I was a teacher, if you got less than 50 per cent, you failed. So, you know, I think this whole implementation is certainly a failure.

You talk about 96 per cent saying that it would make them better landlords. It doesn't actually say that, because 51 per cent said that they didn't find it much use, if you read the report. What this generally does is it places, I'd say, costs on small landlords, people who have another property just for their pension, really, and people are being driven out of the sector—and I’ve picked up casework myself of people being made homeless by landlords selling properties. I think that's important to remember.

If we look at the training, I would ask you: have you read the training? You know, have you read your own documents online, for example?

David Melding (Conservative, South Wales Central)

It's too late to read it now. [Laughter.]

Neil McEvoy (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

I'm trying to find it. Because, if you look—oh, it’s the next sheet. If you look at what is online, it amounts to 60 pages of A4 text followed by a multiple-choice exam. There are no videos, there are few examples, there are few case studies, there are no diagrams, there's no interactive content. Now, this is really important, Minister, because, in other words, it breaches the Welsh Government's own guidelines in adult education, which expect content providers to tailor courses to the learners’ needs, and I would know that as a teacher. You’ve failed to do that. It's another failure on your part.

There is no section on the rights of tenants. Why not? In terms of the lack of engagement, a very simple question: why haven't you met with the Residential Landlords Association since you became Minister in May? Another shocking failure, really.

Now, I'm not one to criticise without giving solutions. So, I'll offer you some solutions now. I think the fee to register should be just £10. All the information could be sent out on PDF, free. That's not complicated. You could maybe have more detailed training for those who need it, as an option. That's not there at the minute. And you could work with insurers to create incentives for people to sign up. Mainly, you could delay enforcement, because what we're looking at here is over 50 per cent of people who could be facing sanctions, many of whom don't even know about this scheme. So, I think I've raised several questions there. I think your performance on this is quite shocking. I think if we had a proactive First Minister, you'd be picking up your P45. [Interruption.] I think the reaction of Labour Members there is interesting. So, there are a number of questions there, Minister. Could you please address them? I'm particularly interested in the online course, because you’ve failed your own guidelines.

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I note the aggressive tone of the Member again in his contribution to the Chamber. Of course, through the process of the housing Bill, it would be remiss of me not to say that the Plaid Cymru group were very supportive of the process and, indeed, of the way that was structured. Unfortunately, we don't make legislation on the Neil McEvoy way of thinking in terms of how we should do things—because he thinks it’s right. It’s evidence-based solutions that we work on. The Member is incorrect when he says that I haven’t met with the Residential Landlords Association through the process. I have, on several occasions, met with them through the process of this. [Interruption.] I’ve noted the Member’s comments and his aggressive tone towards me, Llywydd. [Interruption.]

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Let the Minister respond, please.

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I’ve noted the Member’s comments, the content of which I will obviously give further consideration to—but not for today.

Jenny Rathbone (Labour, Cardiff Central)

Picking up on the useful comments from David Melding, I think that there are clearly some people who have failed to register, because you’ve said that there were more than 55,000 registered as of 9 o’clock last night, plus 12,700 who’ve started the process. So, that’s some 68,000. I just wondered if you’ve got any idea of the numbers who might be involved who simply have ignored the call. I recall, when we took the housing Bill through committee, the idea was that there was something between 70,000 and 130,000 landlords—so, some indication of what you think the shortfall is.

Picking up on the point of David Melding, I think it’s appropriate to have a different attitude towards the proverbial little old lady who has one property, who may not have realised about the new housing Act, but we need to take a completely different attitude towards the professional landlords who’ve simply ignored this. I’m dealing with one at the moment who is endeavouring to convert a property in a way that is completely outwith the building regulations, and I have to commend the building regulations officers and the environmental health officers for the work they’ve done on this property, and their refusal to issue a building regs completion certificate until all the work has been done to a satisfactory standard. This is precisely the sort of landlord who—we need to ensure that we have an appropriate person who is registered so that the tenants can chase the landlord to carry out the defective works. So, I absolutely commend you on this Act, and as somebody who has probably one of the largest number of private sector homes rented out of any constituency, I appreciate that this is a really, really important Act.

A further detail I just wanted to ask you about—the possible financial incentives we might want to give at the end of the five-year term of the licence to anybody who’s prepared to carry out that licence. The early birds might get some sort of minor financial incentive to get them to engage. I think it’s really quite extraordinary, the work that Rent Smart Wales has done to get this number of people registered in such a short time, because so many landlords have left it to the last minute. By 13 November, they only had 46,300 registered, so the fact they’ve made it to 55,000 as of last night is really to commend the work that has been done by Rent Smart Wales. I’m sure that they will be able to count on the collaboration with Cardiff council to ensure that we chase those who are not taking their responsibilities seriously.

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I thank the Member for her continued support. Again, the Member dealt with the detail in terms of the housing Bill when it went through the Assembly, talking to a range of stakeholders for and against the proposed legislation, and the shape of the legislation was an important landmark process for this institution. I’m glad we have made significant progress on that.

In terms of the numbers, again, as of last night, it was 55,000. We expect to see over the next two days—yesterday and today—a significant increase on that, with the last-minute approach by individuals to make the register. I will update Members perhaps with a letter in the next week or so with regard to the numbers that have finally come on deadline day, so that you and I are fully aware of that. I think what we have to be mindful of is that this is the law, but I also recognise that it’s about proportionality in terms of enforcement. I would expect the enforcement teams to look at this proportionately as and when they consider the enforcement process.

I visited a scheme, actually outside of Wales, where there was a scheme of similar enforcement and the irony was it was actually peer pressure from within the sector. People who were registered were saying about No. 12 who was a landlord and not registered. It was regulated within the market, which was really helpful because they also don’t want rogue landlords bringing a bad name to the system. It’s only right to do that too.

Unlike some of the ill-informed critics of this legislation or the implementation of this—there are one or two, as you may have heard this afternoon—I have visited the operation centre in Cardiff. I’ve met and spoke to the teams at the front end of this very difficult process of getting people registered. I pay tribute to the people that are there at the front end, talking with people and taking people through the application process. It’s not a straightforward one but it’s a necessity. It’s the law. I wish that Members would recognise that. Cardiff city council have done a great job in terms of what they’ve done for the whole of Wales in taking this operation forward. I wish them well in the future.

In terms of the incentive, it’s an interesting prospect. I’ll give that some further thought, because I think that incentivising people to do this and getting in early actually helps us as well. If we hadn’t had the rush at the end, we wouldn’t have had the delays in the applications. So, I will give that some more thought. Thanks to the Member for her contribution.

Gareth Bennett (UKIP, South Wales Central)

Thanks, Minister, for your statement. I don’t want to comment too much on the nature of the landlord registration scheme because that was contained in legislation debated and passed by the last Assembly. However, there is one point that slightly puzzles me, which is regarding the £144 registration charge, which is a flat fee. There are many reluctant landlords who find themselves renting out property owing to a family bereavement or similar circumstances. It does seem odd to me that those landlords have to pay the same amount as those who rent out multiple properties on a professional basis. So, I do wonder if it is the correct approach to have simply one flat fee.

Regarding the operation of the scheme, it is welcome that nearly all of the landlords who attended the training course felt it better equipped them to be landlords, but there are some issues that still need to be addressed. One big issue is that we simply don’t know how many landlords there are in Wales, which of course this registration scheme is designed to address. So, because we don’t know that, we don’t know how many have not yet registered, but the Welsh Government estimates that there may still be some 40,000 people who need to register who haven’t yet done so. Although this is essentially a rough guess, it does seem that there are large numbers involved, so I would ask if there is a sensible case for extending the deadline for registration or for some kind of amnesty period where enforcement or sanctions wouldn’t take effect, which has also been suggested by a couple of the other speakers in this debate. So, I would add my voice to that.

The other issue is the burden on local councils. I would ask the Minister what assessment has been made of the impact of the registration scheme on local authorities and what resources have been allocated to them. That’s all of the points I wish to raise. I do also need to declare a financial interest as I do have one buy-to-let mortgage. Thank you.

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I thank the Member for his comments. Of course, the Member’s right to raise the issue that this legislation was passed in the last term of this Assembly with the previous Government. Now, it’s the implementation stage. Of course, I’m familiar also that the Member is yet to experience that process of legislation. One of his questions relates to the issue around—the Member used the word ‘burden’, but I would use the word ‘cost’—involved for local authorities. That is in the regulatory impact assessment. As we take through legislation in this Assembly, the Member will of course get familiar with that as we take forward further legislation.

I’ve been very clear about the proposal of extending the deadline. I will not be seeking to extend the deadline, for the reason I alluded to in my statement—that would just move the process further down. People who are seeking to use the final date for registration as their final application—that will be tomorrow, and if I was to extend it for another month or two, they would just use that date for two months, rather than tomorrow, which is not acceptable.

The Member is right about the flat-fee registration. This was, again, a very strongly contested proposal during the process of introducing the Act. Of course, there are many circumstances where families own properties and pass them to members of their family, et cetera. It’s really hard to disaggregate that. Actually, we believe that the flat fee at a relatively small level is a reasonable fee for all fee-paying registrations to take place; therefore, it was hugely debated, but was passed by this Assembly by a majority in the last Government.

Mike Hedges (Labour, Swansea East)

I welcome the statement by the Cabinet Secretary, and I give him three cheers, as opposed to David Melding’s two. I recognise the importance of the Rent Smart scheme. We need to improve the overall quality and management of privately rented housing. I want to stress the importance that landlords—including accidental landlords—are aware of all their responsibilities. The rush to register at the end reminds me of the rush to submit self-assessment income tax returns as the last date for submission approaches. As the scheme is being independently evaluated over three years, will the Minister commit to produce an oral statement after each report is produced?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I’m grateful for the three cheers and the support of the Member—again, a Member consistent in his approach to the introduction of this piece of legislation. Of course, I will keep Members updated, as I said earlier on, particularly around the numbers for final registration, but also against process and enforcement. I will bring a statement to the Chamber in the early part of next year.

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Thank you very much, Cabinet Secretary.

8. 5. Statement: Focus on Exports

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

I’m going to move on to item 5, which is a statement by the Cabinet Secretary for Economy and Infrastructure on the focus on exports. I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Economy and Infrastructure, Ken Skates.

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. Through this statement, I will demonstrate to the Chamber that this Government is extremely well placed to respond to the unprecedented challenges we now face in the global business environment. Increasing the value of exports and the number of exporters in Wales have been central pillars of our economic strategy for some time. This aligns with the priorities set out in the well-being of future generations agenda to create a prosperous Wales.

We have a comprehensive range of support for existing and would-be exporters that is focused on inspiring them to start or grow their exports, transferring the knowledge and skills to build their capability to export, helping them to connect with potential customers overseas and supporting visits to overseas markets. We assist companies at every stage of their export journey and we have helped Welsh companies to win new export orders. With our support, Welsh companies won more than £72 million in new export business in 2015-16.

I have recently returned from leading a trade mission to one of the most important markets that we have—Japan—and I can confirm to you today that it was a resounding success. We, as a Government, are able to provide comprehensive support to companies before they go to a new market, during their visit and after they return. I saw first-hand how this support was tailored to suit each company and how it was put into practice.

Prior to the mission, Welsh Government officials based here and in Tokyo helped companies to refine their offer, identify opportunities and set up meetings with potential customers and distributors. This ensured that each company had a worthwhile programme and was able to take full advantage of the time they had in market. Companies also benefited from financial support to travel to market on the trade mission, but I believe it is the softer support that money cannot buy that provides the greater benefits.

During the mission, we arranged a lunch with key representatives of the Osaka chamber of commerce and an evening reception with local businesses and with key contacts. Given the extensive membership of the organisation—some 28,000 members—this was an excellent opportunity to raise the profile of Wales. Added to this, there was a pre-opening reception for companies participating in the British fair at the prestigious Hankyu department store. Wales featured as one of the main focal points and, again, this was an excellent opportunity for Welsh companies to network and speak to potential customers face-to-face. Our Tokyo team also spoke at the event to promote Wales as a tourism destination.

I had the opportunity to speak at three events, so was able to reinforce the message that Wales remains firmly open for business following the recent referendum result. The fact that we had 19 companies with us on the trade mission, plus an additional six Welsh companies exhibiting at the Hankyu showcase, also demonstrated the dynamism of our companies and that we have no qualms about being proactive in looking outwards for business in spite of the challenges. As a Government, we cannot do the business for them, but we can add value by raising the profile and opening doors that may otherwise be inaccessible. Undoubtedly, the presence of a Cabinet Minister was vital in gaining access firstly to ministerial colleagues in Japan and secondly to key decision makers on the boards of some of the largest companies in the world, such as Sony and Hitachi. This I was delighted to be able to do. In a wider context, given the concerns expressed recently by the Japanese Government about Brexit, the timing of this trade mission could not have been better. I was able to allay some of these concerns, but also reaffirm the high regard in which Japanese companies are held in Wales.

Alongside the packed programme of meetings and events, my officials ensured that all of this hard work was publicised and the visit maintained a high profile in both Wales and Japan. This included the use of social media and traditional print media. For example, I was interviewed by the highly respected ‘The Nikkei’, owner of the ‘Financial Times’, which enabled me to deliver our message even further to its wide circulation of circa 3 million readers. We also provided our businesses with an advertising platform in the form of a pamphlet, branded under the Wales banner.

It is very soon for companies to have a complete picture on all the deals that will be closed as a result of the mission; such deals often take time to bear fruit. So far, the value of orders received by Welsh companies is around £680,000. Each company had a number of very positive discussions during the mission, which they anticipate will lead to even more exports to Japan. We’ll be following up with companies on all the opportunities identified to ensure their export journey is as complete as possible and that they all see tangible outcomes.

In conclusion, the mission was a great success for all involved. The large number of businesses we took showed a strong commitment to the market and each one has indicated to us that they found it highly beneficial. With a healthy mix of experienced and less experienced exporters, we found that, as an added bonus, there was also camaraderie between missioners that gave way to unrivalled peer support via the sharing of information, experiences and contacts. We are determined to support Welsh exporters as much as we can in a post-Brexit Wales.

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Thank you very much. Russell George.

Russell George (Conservative, Montgomeryshire)

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I’d like to thank the Cabinet Secretary for his statement this afternoon. It’s very welcome, and I’m certainly keen to have further statements of this sort. I certainly appreciate that we are in uncertain times, following the EU referendum result and the US election, but I also do think that there are exciting opportunities for new and existing UK international deals, which Wales must seize. Now, I’m pleased that, following your trade mission, you have indicated that there will be a step change in approach, which will ensure that Wales reaps the benefits from being part of UK plc, which is now the fastest growing economy in the G8, I think it’s important to point out.

Between 2015 and 2016, there has been a fall in the value of Welsh exports by over £0.5 billion, and a fall in exports to the EU countries by nearly 11 per cent. In contrast, the UK trade statistics have reported that, between quarter 2 and quarter 3 of 2016, overall UK exports of goods to EU countries increased by £2.3 billion. So, I would be grateful if you could outline your views on: if overall exports from the UK to the EU have risen, have Wales’s exports fallen?

I was also concerned to learn that the latest export figures for Wales show that export values to the USA dropped by £203 million during this period. Given the fact that the US market represents Wales’s largest trading partner, followed by Germany, can I ask you, Cabinet Secretary, what specific measures you are putting in place to reverse this, I’d say, concerning trend with our main trading partner?

And finally, I raised with the First Minister on Friday during scrutiny of the First Minister that Nicola Sturgeon, speaking at the SNP conference last month, had said that she was doubling staff in some Scottish Government offices and opening new offices in other parts of the world. When I asked the First Minister whether Welsh Government had similar intentions he did indicate that that would be the case. So, I would be grateful if you could perhaps outline a little bit more about what plans you have for increasing staff in international offices and also to give us more detail generally about what Welsh Government’s international offices do in Europe and in other parts of the world?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Can I thank Russell George for his questions and for, indeed, welcoming this statement, which is timely? Further statements of this nature will come forward as additional trade missions take place and there is more information concerning the state of UK and Welsh exports. I do believe there are exciting opportunities, but there is an immediate challenge for us in dealing with some negative perceptions of the UK after the referendum. One issue that I did find out in Japan that had to be dealt with on numerous occasions was a belief that, as a consequence of the referendum, Britain was somehow less tolerant and less outward-looking. This is something that we must address, not just us but colleagues across the United Kingdom.

In terms of the United States, the United States is a very key market and I am concerned, clearly, about some of the rhetoric of the incoming President. That said, we are intensifying activity in the United States, and in the first quarter of next year there will be two trade missions going to New York and San Francisco. There is no doubt there is huge opportunity in the United States, where we also have a very strong diaspora, and I am hoping that our offices in the US will be able to work more closely with UK Trade and Investment and the British embassies and consulates. I found that in Japan, our access to the embassy gave us huge opportunities that we would not otherwise have had. Having a good relationship with our ambassadors abroad is crucially important in attracting key decision makers in market, and I’m very grateful to the co-operation of the UK Government in this regard and our overseas officers.

In terms of the figures, almost all of the reduction in export values that the Member highlights is accounted for by the reduction in the value of energy exports, including minerals, fuels, lubricants and petroleum. And since 2011, energy exports—the value of those exports—have clearly been adversely affected by the closure of the Murco refinery, the maintenance shutdown at Valero and also by a significant fall in the value of the pound against the US dollar. However, figures for quarter 1 and quarter 2 of this calendar year for non-energy exports do actually show a slight increase on the corresponding period in 2015. It’s my desire to see that trend improve and growth in exports accelerate. Indeed, much of the fall in the value of exports I think can be attributed to issues that are beyond our control, specifically in the fall in commodity prices and exchange rate variations. But that’s why we are focusing on areas where we can make a significant difference. And, again, in terms of Japan, the rate of return on investment to date is 20:1. I would expect, over the coming six months, as more orders are secured, the return on the investment of that trade mission would pass 40:1, which is normal for the value for money ratio for trade missions.

We are working—the Member referred to UK plc—more closely with UKTI and I recently met with Lord Price to discuss how we can ensure that we collaborate where possible and that we also take up opportunities presented by specific regional trade missions as well. For example, we discussed the opportunities that could be presented for businesses within the Northern Powerhouse area of Wales to take part in a specific Northern Powerhouse trade mission or trade missions.

Adam Price (Plaid Cymru, Carmarthen East and Dinefwr)

I commend the Minister for taking a close personal interest in selling Wales abroad. I think that’s a very, very important role for the Cabinet Secretary. I would think, though, that alongside activity, of course, we need strategy, and I was interested to hear his comments just now drilling down a little bit into the fairly serious decline in our export position overall that we’ve seen consistently since 2013—about a £2.6 billion reduction in the total volume of exports. It would be useful, I think, if he would be willing to share with the Assembly the analysis that he’s alluded to there. I think the energy side of it is certainly absolutely borne out by the figures, but there are other areas—manufactured goods classified chiefly by material and miscellaneous manufactured articles—as well that show a similar trend of decline over the last year, and there are particular countries—the Irish Republic, for instance, were down 30 per cent over the last year. And I think it would be useful if we had a more in-depth analysis of what has driven this fall in our export position.

I would say to him—again, he won’t be surprised by this—that almost every country in the world has a specialist trade promotion body, and, indeed, when it was recently mooted that UKTI—which he has been very complimentary about, I think, and works closely with the Welsh Government—were going to maybe be abolished, merged, downgraded et cetera, then I think the Welsh Government wouldn’t have supported that, because the evidence from across the world is that having a trade promotion body is an important part in the armoury of any nation. Unfortunately, and this isn’t in any way to decry the best efforts of himself or indeed civil servants, all the evidence that shows why Governments have them is that having a specialist trade promotion body with offices right across the world is an important tool in driving forward the exports success that we’d all like to see.

Finally, could I just ask him, seeing as he was in Osaka: did he have the opportunity to see the sight of the world expo of 1970 that was such an important part of the economic development success of that particular region of Japan, so much so, of course, that they’re bidding for it again in 2025, because they see an expo as the best shop window possible for exports, telling the world, as we are oft as politicians to say, ‘We are open for business’? Would he at least consider looking at the possible benefits and costs of a Welsh bid, so that we’re actually competing there with Osaka and all the other cities and regions and nations in the world?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Can I thank Adam Price for his questions and say, yes, I would be very open to the prospect of Wales hosting a world expo, and I’ve asked officials to look at the potential of this in future years? Unfortunately, I didn’t see the site of the Osaka world expo. For the most part, my trip consisted of travelling from one office base to another, but I did catch sight of what was an incredible castle in Osaka, and for that one moment I did feel very much at home.

In terms of the work that we’re doing, I’m actually doing some work in mapping growth goods and service areas against the growing markets for the Welsh economy, so that we can identify which products and which services are most likely to grow post Brexit in each of our respective key markets. Some work has already been carried out by UK Government, which they’ve shared with us, in identifying both threats and opportunities in terms of international trade. We’re now working alongside that to identify the markets and the goods and services that are most likely to reap the biggest rewards in terms of growth.

I know that the Member has raised in the past the question of whether there should be a specific body to promote exports. My concern at this moment in time is that we have to ensure that there is close alignment between brand Wales, exporting support, and also the operations right across Welsh Government offices abroad. At the moment, I think we’ve got a very good story to tell about the way that Wales is being promoted as a place, as a destination, not just for tourists, but for investment and how it’s being promoted to the outside world as a place of quality for goods and services to be produced.

I would be hesitant about departing from what we have created at the moment—an aligned structure where we have Business Wales offering advice and guidance to businesses, working with Welsh Government officials in terms of opportunities that there are for exporting and identifying new markets, and then, thirdly, working with Visit Wales in the promotion of brand Wales. I am conscious of the need to make sure that we have alignment and consistency. At this moment in time, I’d be very, very reticent about moving away from what is an operation that works well to one that, perhaps, could not have a clear, strong brand in its initial years.

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Can I congratulate the Cabinet Secretary on a successful visit to Japan? It’s obviously important to keep these markets open for Welsh exports. Can I ask him to address the particular challenges faced by small and medium-sized businesses in exporting, half of which depend heavily on the internet to drive export sales? He mentioned that he’d had some concerns in Japan around Brexit. As the EU moves, albeit slowly, towards a digital single market, I hope that we’ll find ways of taking advantage of the harmonisation that that will bring and the lower costs that that will bring for those that remain members. But that aside, what steps is the Government taking to encourage e-exporting, to explain the scale of the opportunity and how to go about it?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Well, the vast majority of businesses that take part in trade missions are SMEs and just to demonstrate how we are intensifying our activities abroad, in the last two months, we’ve taken more than 110 different businesses on trade missions and to exhibitions overseas. In addition to Japan, we’ve been to India, Ireland, Germany and Belgium, to name but a few.

In terms of e-exporting services, well, we offer advice and guidance to businesses large and small, but primarily to microbusinesses and small-sized enterprises. We also connect businesses with the e-exporting service offered by the Department for International Trade, and this service, which has recently been enhanced, provides companies with access to preferential rates on some of the world’s largest online marketplaces, such as Amazon China and Harper’s Bazaar. I think it’s worth saying that, insofar as an SME is concerned, where a product or a service is deemed to be suitable for selling online, we will help companies in a number of ways, from advising on the optimisation of their websites through to helping them to understand issues such as taxes and VAT. This is a service that is provided on a dedicated one-to-one basis by Business Wales, and is proving successful in increasing the number of small and medium-sized enterprises that are exporting. But it is something that I wish to see grow and wish to enhance. It’s absolutely vital, in a post-Brexit Wales, that we encourage more and more businesses to export. For that reason, we’ll be hosting a number of summits in the new year, bringing together experienced exporters with small and medium-sized enterprises that are yet to export.

David Rowlands (UKIP, South Wales East)

I thank the Cabinet Secretary for his statement that contained many encouraging comments with regard to his visit to Japan. However, turning to exports in general, would the Cabinet Secretary confirm to Members that Wales’s exports to the EU have been in sharp decline over the last decade, falling, as my colleague pointed out earlier, from 60 per cent to less than 40 per cent during that period, and that perhaps Brexit was not only a timely wake-up call, but it would rather seem to be a necessary intervention if Wales was not to slide deeper into the economic doldrums with regard to its export achievements?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

I think one thing we can be sure of with Brexit is that if businesses in Wales have to pay tariffs, or if tariffs have to be paid, rather, on their goods and services, it will inhibit their ability to export. It will not be a benefit. I’ve already outlined the reasons for the fall in the value of exports, largely being attributed to energy products, but in other areas, there has been a significant increase in the value of exports, notably in food and drink. As I outlined to Adam Price, I’m looking carefully at both the potential growth markets and the potential growth products and services to ensure that we are optimising the spend that we have invested in opening up new markets and introducing businesses to would-be buyers, but also in terms of making sure that we are not selling or trying to sell in areas where there is not predicted growth or where there is not predicted growth in the value of exported goods.

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Thank you very much, Cabinet Secretary.