Senedd Cymru (Welsh Parliament), 23 November 2016

377 contributions from 41 members. The official report.

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Order. Can I call the Assembly to order to start this Plenary session please? Thank you.

1. 1. Questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Local Government

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

The first item on our agenda this afternoon is questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Local Government, and I call question 1, Rhianon Passmore.

Rhianon Passmore (Labour, Islwyn)

1. Will the Minister make a statement on the current progress of the Cardiff Capital Region deal? OAQ(5)0060(FLG)

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

The Cardiff capital deal demonstrates the benefits that can come from collaborative working across 10 local authorities. Progress remains in line with the timescales experienced by other, similar, large-scale city regions across the United Kingdom. Ratification of necessary governance and assurance arrangements is expected by February 2017.

Rhianon Passmore (Labour, Islwyn)

For the people of Islwyn, the Cardiff capital region deal encompassing 10 local authorities, including our Caerphilly County Borough Council, is a true game changer. The deal’s top priority is the proposed south Wales metro. The Minister will be aware of the frustrations felt by my constituents daily as they seek to commute to the two major cities of Cardiff and Newport. On the highly popular Ebbw Vale to Cardiff railway line, commuters have been faced with Arriva Trains Wales using trains that are 40 years old. The carriages are overcrowded, with little possibility of additional diesel trains being acquired, as there are few anachronistic diesel trains on the market. The recent problems have been exacerbated by trains being taken off the tracks because repairs are needed as fallen leaves have damaged the train wheels. Will the Minister outline a timetable for when the Cardiff capital region deal, worth over £1 billion over 20 years, will begin to transform south Wales’s public transport infrastructure, including for my constituents, a train service directly into Newport?

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

I thank the Member for that question. She’s absolutely right, of course, that the south-east Wales metro is a key feature of the city deal, and at its heart, it has the aim of creating a first-class public transport system across the whole region, to keep moving us forward for generations to come. Procurement of the operator and development partner for the next Wales and borders franchise and the metro is already well advanced. There are four bidders shortlisted to progress to the next stage. We expect to be able to award a contract in 2017, and see metro services operating from 2023.

Andrew RT Davies (Conservative, South Wales Central)

Minister, obviously, we’ve had the autumn statement today. We know the city deal is in place. As I understand it from the autumn statement today, the Welsh Government will be getting an additional £400 million, and it’s going to be vital, combining the city deal with the additional resources that have been made available today, that the productivity of the Cardiff city deal area is increased, so that we increase the overall prosperity of that area. Will you commit to using the additional funds in a Cardiff sense to drive up the productivity of the Cardiff economy and the surrounding areas, so that there are better job opportunities, but above all, that the wealth of the area is increased?

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

I recognise the points that the leader of the Conservative Party is making. The Chancellor was still on his feet when I came down to answer questions this afternoon, so I will wait to see the final details of the autumn statement before committing to any particular spending plans. But the point that he makes about investment in order to carry forward our economy is one that, quite certainly, is shared by this Government.

Neil McEvoy (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

There’s a huge contradiction between what you say about the regional approach and the reality, because local authorities just plan ahead with developments as if the city region project isn’t happening. So, why are you allowing Labour-run City of Cardiff Council to destroy the greenfields in your own constituency, rather than allocating them around the region as they would do with the regional approach?

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Well, Dirprwy Lywydd, the Member’s contribution is the usual mixture of malevolence and fantasy. He’s had his answer to this question many times and I have nothing to add to what he already knows.

Steffan Lewis (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

2. What discussions has the Minister had about budget allocations to the health, well-being and sport portfolio? OAQ(5)0050(FLG)

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

I meet regularly with a range of stakeholders and colleagues to discuss financial issues, including priorities and allocations within the health, well-being and sport portfolio.

Steffan Lewis (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

I thank the Cabinet Secretary for his answer. Wales has no specialist mother and baby unit and a constituent has recently shared with me the experience of her daughter who, on becoming a mother, suffered with postpartum psychosis but had to go to London to receive specialist treatment. Many mothers in similar situations will be separated from their babies whilst they’re treated in non-specialist hospitals. How much of the health budget allocation for the next financial year will be put towards caring for mothers with postpartum psychosis and other perinatal mental health issues?

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Well, Dirprwy Lywydd, I’ll draw the Member’s specific question to the attention of my colleague the Cabinet member for health, of course. I do know that at the very end of the last Assembly term additional funding specifically for perinatal mental health was made available, and I am confident that the extra services that will be provided as a result of that investment will be making a difference across Wales.

Suzy Davies (Conservative, South Wales West)

Last month, the City and County of Swansea council settled a claim brought by 11 of its occupational therapists that they were being paid less than their equivalents in the NHS. Unison said that occupational therapists right across Welsh local government, not only in Swansea, suffer lower pay and poorer access to professional development opportunities than their colleagues in the health service. I’m sure you agree with the point of equal pay for equal work, but have you discussed with local authorities whether they would be expected to meet any extra costs of similar claims from their own Welsh budget allocation, or bearing in mind that we’re talking about providers of health services, whether there’s an argument that they might actually go to the health budget in order to help them meet those costs?

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Well, Dirprwy Lywydd, I’m well aware of the general issue that the Member raises because occupational therapists are one of those groups that are employed both by local authorities for their purposes and by the health service. That does mean that there are different terms and conditions that apply to those different workplaces and, as the Member says, that sometimes means that different training opportunities are available depending on the sector you are employed in. Ultimately, these are matters for employers to resolve, but I am certain that they are well aware of the issue that the Member has raised.

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

May I ask the Cabinet Secretary about the allocations to community pharmacy? I have in mind the statement by the health Secretary about his aspiration to increase the role of community pharmacy, to decrease the pressure on primary care and to integrate IT between hospitals, GPs and community pharmacies. Of course, it also offers the opportunity of relieving pressure on secondary care in terms of the delayed discharge if the integration of community pharmacies and hospital records can be completed. Could he comment on the allocations to community pharmacy in that context?

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Well, the Member makes an important point in the financial context because, historically, investment in community pharmacy has been maintained on a par and in a parallel between the English and the Welsh NHS. Then on 28 October, last month, the UK Government announced that it was going ahead with proposals to cut the funding available to community pharmacies in England—a reduction of 4 per cent in this year and over 7 per cent in the next financial year. This inevitably breaks the link between the way that we do things in Wales and the way that community pharmacy is going to be funded in England. I’ve discussed this matter with my colleague the Cabinet member for health. This Government and, indeed, this Chamber has long emphasised the advantages to be obtained from a thriving community pharmacy sector in Wales. The intention of my colleague is to maintain funding in Wales without cuts, but then to discuss with the community pharmacy sector the additional contribution that they can make in recognition of the extra investment that will now be made in Wales compared to the destabilising cuts that will take place across our border.

Caroline Jones (UKIP, South Wales West)

Cabinet Secretary, the UK Government have today announced additional moneys for the Welsh block grant as a result of the autumn statement. Given the challenges outlined in the Welsh Government’s cancer delivery plan, namely the equipment shortages that are holding back earlier cancer diagnoses and consequently survival rates, will you please give a commitment to spend a large proportion of the additional moneys on improving diagnostic services in Wales?

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

I thank the Member for the question. As I say, the Chancellor had not completed his statement when I came down. We’ve long learnt in this Chamber to look at the small print of what he says in these statements to see where money is being taken away, which the Chancellor tends not to emphasise, as well as where money is being provided.

As I understood it when I left, there was not a single penny piece of additional funding for the health service being offered in the autumn statement, despite the enormous pressures that are there in the English NHS. The Member will know that, as a result of our budget agreement with Plaid Cymru, we are already committed to significant extra capital investment in diagnostic equipment for the Welsh NHS next year.

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

We now turn to spokespeople’s questions, and I call on party spokespeople to question the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Local Government. First up today is Gareth Bennett.

Gareth Bennett (UKIP, South Wales Central)

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. Could you put your hat as local government Minister on for a second? Hopefully, that’s not my first question. [Laughter.] Cardiff council has managed to raise £4.5 million in the past two years in bus lane fines. Do you think this may be an excessive amount, which could indicate that motorists in the city are being targeted by the council as cash cows? Can the Welsh Government intervene in any way to stop councils from taking overly punitive action against drivers?

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Dirprwy Lywydd, bus lanes are a very important part of the way in which we are able to encourage people to use public transport rather than car transport—that is the policy of this administration. Provided Cardiff council operate within the law, which I’m sure they do, then their actions are not to be criticised. The real solution to the problem the Member raises is in the hands of car drivers: if they keep to the rules of the road, they will not be at risk of being fined.

Gareth Bennett (UKIP, South Wales Central)

Yes, thank you, Minister. As a non-driver, I do appreciate your regard for public transport, which I share. In an ideal world, your answer would be correct, but, unfortunately, given Cardiff’s traffic problems, sometimes drivers do inadvertently find themselves in bus lanes. To continue with the theme, Cardiff probably does have the worst traffic problems in Wales, and the council has also raised £3.5 million in parking fines since 2014 as well as £110,000 in yellow-box fines. This last is, perhaps, the most pernicious charge, as drivers caught up in the city’s endless traffic jams simply cannot gauge when they are going to end up in a yellow box. I really think that Cardiff and any other council engaging in this kind of money making should be forcibly dissuaded from doing so. Can you, as a Minister, issue any guidelines on this?

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

I thank the Member for what he said about his support for public transport measures. I agree with him that if people find themselves in positions inadvertently, then the law should take a more generous view of any transgressions. I will investigate the final point that he makes about yellow-box infringements in particular to see whether there is wider evidence to bear out the points that he’s made this afternoon.

Gareth Bennett (UKIP, South Wales Central)

Thank you for that, Minister. I’ll move on to something else, as you dealt with that one so capably. It’s to do with the Localism Act 2011, which they have in England and which we haven’t adopted in Wales yet. The Campaign for Real Ale have pushed for this as a means of protecting the local pub, which I think is an admirable campaign. Whether or not the Localism Act is the best way of achieving the protection of local pubs I’m not sure, but I know that CAMRA have been in talks with the Welsh Government, so I wondered whether you could give us any update on those talks.

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Dirprwy Lywydd, I’ve not been involved directly in those talks myself. I recognise the point that the Member makes about the contribution that a thriving pub can make to a community—a social contribution as well as anything else. I’ll make sure that his points are drawn to the attention of my colleague Carl Sargeant, who I think is responsible for that matter.

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Thank you very much. I call on Plaid Cymru’s spokesperson, Adam Price.

Adam Price (Plaid Cymru, Carmarthen East and Dinefwr)

I think I’m going to change the aperture a little bit from bus lanes in Cardiff to the world economic outlook. [Laughter.] I was wondering whether the Cabinet Secretary shares a growing global consensus, I think, amongst Governments right across the world that now is the time for infrastructure spending like never before. It may be the only policy lever that we have. One of the few positive by-products of the long recession that we’ve had since the economic crisis is ultra-low or, indeed, negative interest rates.

That historic window may not be there forever, as we’ve begun to see in America already mortgage rates rising as a result of speculation over the infrastructure investment that may result as a result of the Trump presidency. Do we need to grasp this opportunity now with a greater sense of urgency, Cabinet Secretary?

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

I entirely agree with the point the Member makes. As I said, I didn’t get to hear the whole of the Chancellor’s statement, but I did get to see the anaemic growth forecasts that the Office for Budget Responsibility produced for the next five years—I should think very alarming growth forecasts for anybody in charge of the UK economy. The OBR is not forecasting that the UK economy will return to trend growth at any point during the next five years. This doesn’t simply mean that we continue to face the impact of the lost economic activity that we have seen as a result of austerity, but that we’re not even going to return—not even going to return—to where the UK economy has managed to perform for nearly 60 years, from 1945 onwards. That should mean that the Chancellor should grasp this urgent need to invest in the UK economy to generate economic growth. Inflation forecasts surely give us cause for concern about interest rates, which will follow. Now is the time, when interest rates are at a historic low, as Adam Price has said, to take that opportunity and to invest for the future.

Adam Price (Plaid Cymru, Carmarthen East and Dinefwr)

One of the policy levers that many Governments are beginning to focus on is the idea of an infrastructure bank, as I raised yesterday with the First Minister. We’ve had one announced this month in Canada by the Prime Minister there. There was the creation of the Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank last year, and discussion from the former Labour Prime Minister in Australia about doing the same. I agree with him that £400 million over five years is certainly not going to enable us to do anything meaningful in terms of the underinvestment in infrastructure in Wales over many decades. So, surely we should also be exploring this policy lever that many Governments across the world have come to believe is the channel by which we can create the sort of public-private investment mechanism that we need in order to catch up in terms of our infrastructure investment.

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Well, Dirprwy Lywydd, this Government will aim to make the very most of any additional capital that comes our way as a result of the autumn statement. But £400 million over a five-year period is not going to meet the needs of Wales. It does not even begin to restore the one-third reduction in our capital programme that we have experienced since the year 2010. That is why, as a Government, we have embarked on a series of innovative ways of providing investment in the Welsh economy. My colleague, Jane Hutt, did it by using the borrowing powers of local government and of housing associations. We have further innovative financial arrangements in train to produce the new Velindre and to complete the dualling of the Heads of the Valleys road. The idea that Adam Price has put forward this afternoon was discussed with the First Minister yesterday and I know that my colleague Ken Skates will have heard that discussion and will be interested to take it further forward.

Adam Price (Plaid Cymru, Carmarthen East and Dinefwr)

Can I urge him to go a little bit further? We saw, actually, a national infrastructure bank announced by his colleague, the shadow chancellor, in a speech on 27 September. It was repeated three days later by the leader of the Labour Party—it’s good to see some policy alignment happening there. Surely, rather than just expressing constantly our disappointment with Westminster, the point about creating this institution and the Welsh Government is that we don’t just emote, we don’t just deal with emotional spasms of regret, we actually do something. This lever has been announced as a policy by his own party at the UK level—and a network of regional banks. Well, there’s a Government that his party runs in the UK: it’s the Welsh Government. Surely, rather than just issuing statements of regret and press releases about what a future hypothetical Labour Government could do in Westminster, surely we should actually take control of our own destiny and create an infrastructure bank for Wales.

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

It’s because we have done exactly that that, in Wales, we’ve had the innovative finance arrangements that I’ve already explored. It’s why we have Finance Wales here providing a source of funding to businesses in Wales that otherwise certainly would not have been available to them. That’s why, indeed, we are interested to explore other ideas within our competence and our legislative ability to build even further on that record.

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

Cabinet Secretary, the recent Health Foundation report, ‘The path to sustainability: Funding projections for the NHS in Wales to 2019/20 and 2030/31’, highlights the need for an increase of around 60 per cent in funding to £10.4 billion by 2030-31 in order to meet the forthcoming predicted demand. They also identify the need for greater efficiency, and we know that smarter ways of working, particularly in the integration of health and social care, are a must. Based on your forthcoming local government reforms, which, of course, are to include a footprint of seven regional consortia, to include health and social care, what plans are you putting in place now to ensure that greater efficiencies could be made through a fully integrated health and social care model?

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Well, I share the Member’s belief that closer integration between health and social care brings benefits both to patients and to users, and can help to drive financial efficiencies. It’s why, in next year’s budget, we maintain the £60 million care fund to drive greater integration between health and social care. It’s why we will have pooled budgets operating on the regional social services footprints, and it is why, in the discussions that I am having with local authorities in Wales, the notion of bringing social services together on a regional basis, facing health boards, helps us to make progress, and rapid progress, in that direction.

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. The future generations commissioner has warned that public services could fall off a cliff without more being done to prevent people from becoming ill. This includes, obviously, quality housing and leisure services. Further, the Welsh Local Government Association has expressed concerns that NHS budgetary pressures could see non-healthcare services that help people stay healthy losing out. How will you ensure a streamlined approach through local government to promote public health, not just through the NHS, but through all public services provided at local government level, and how will you ensure that, throughout any reform process, this will be a key priority?

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Any person with the responsibility of making a budget for the Welsh Government has to face the competing priorities that are there for expenditure. In the budget that I have laid before this Assembly, we seek to do that, with £240 million additional investment in our health service direct, but also, as a result of our budget agreement, are able to provide a no-cash-cuts budget for local authorities as well, with £25 million identified specifically for social services within that. The general point that the Member makes is one that I endorse: the future for the health service depends upon each one of us being willing to take more responsibility for creating the conditions in which we take better care of our own health. So, much of what the health service deals with today are problems that need never have happened had people made different decisions in their own lives. It’s the responsibility of Government to create the conditions in which those decisions can be made, and our local government budgets are key to helping to do that.

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

Thank you. And, finally, turning to community councils, as part of your local government reform, how do you intend to proceed with a fundamental review of the democratic level of governance that sits at town and community level?

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

I thank Janet Finch-Saunders for that question. I know she’s got a particular interest in town and community councils. I said in my statement on 4 October that there were a series of immediate things I feel we can do to improve the operation of the system as we have it today, but I also wanted a more root-and-branch and independent look at town and community councils to find the ways in which we can harness the things that they do very well. In many parts of Wales, that sector does some very important things very well, but it doesn’t do it uniformly. There is a democratic deficit in the sector, with over half of town and community council seats uncontested at the last election. I’m grateful to her for the discussions we’ve had on this matter and I look forward to being able to continue with them to design that root-and-branch re-assessment.

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Thank you. We now turn back to the questions on the order paper and question 3—Hefin David.

Hefin David (Labour, Caerphilly)

3. Will the Minister make a statement on future collaboration in local government? OAQ(5)0059(FLG)[R]

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

I thank the Member for that question. I set out my proposals for future collaboration between local authorities on 4 October. The proposals for mandatory and systematic regional collaboration will build on the many collaborative arrangements local authorities already have in place across Wales.

Hefin David (Labour, Caerphilly)

Does the Cabinet Secretary believe that such mandatory collaboration has to lead to a return on investment, whether that be delivering more for less, more for the same, or the same for less, and, if that’s the case, how does he anticipate local authorities being able to justify collaboration, as a mandatory requirement, when the business case for collaboration may not necessarily bring a direct benefit to one or other of the individual local authorities engaging in the collaboration process?

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

I thank Hefin David for that supplementary question because he puts his finger on exactly why I have said throughout that these arrangements will have to be mandatory as well as systematic. There are too many examples in local authorities in Wales where an individual local authority has invested a great deal of time and effort in trying to bring about a collaborative regional arrangement only to find that, at the last minute, one of the participating authorities moves away from the table because they don’t see how their own narrow interest has been taken forward in what they all agree is a wider pattern of benefit. We cannot have arrangements in Wales where individual local authorities take such a narrow and time-limited view of their own interests and then sacrifice the wider interests of a region where progress could be made. So, the only way to overcome that, as I see it, is by agreeing these arrangements; I’m very keen to continue that conversation. But, once it is agreed, they will be mandatory and everybody will have to play their part in them.

David Melding (Conservative, South Wales Central)

Cabinet Secretary, we’re of the same generation and probably the only two people in this Chamber that remember the 1994 White Paper to establish unitary authorities. I’m sure we’re the only people that would have read it. It said that at the heart of the concept of unitary authorities was that they’d have to collaborate, but a generation later—there have been some partnerships, of course—that sort of culture of collaboration is yet to be established. And that’s as important as what I would welcome—the more coercive measures that may have to be taken to ensure that, at last, we get them to co-operate effectively.

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Well, I’m afraid I was a county councillor myself back then, when those reforms were being advanced and discussed. So, I do remember them very well. Dirprwy Lywydd, can I say that, actually, when I go around local authorities in Wales I am often struck by the richness of collaboration that is already there? Every local authority can describe to you places where they are collaborating across their borders for very important purposes. The problem with it so far has been that there is no national pattern here. We’re not good at learning from positive experience in one part of Wales and making it happen elsewhere. That’s why, once we’ve agreed on the new co-operative arrangements there are to be, I am determined that they will have to be systematic—they will be the same across Wales, and they’ll be mandatory. Everybody will be involved in delivering them.

Joyce Watson (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Cabinet Secretary, as well as collaboration within and between local government, there are also important partnerships between local authorities and other partners. One of those has been Powys council and the Powys teaching health board, who have entered into an agreement on health and social care in particular. Can you tell me whether there has been any assessment made of that collaboration and whether the outcomes have been positive?

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Well, Dirprwy Lywydd, Joyce Watson makes a very important point, which is always made to me by local authorities when I am meeting them: that the agenda for local authorities goes much wider than local authorities themselves. They all have really important partners, whether that is the local police service, the national park or, in the Powys case, as she says, the collaboration between Powys teaching health board and Powys council. I met the leader of Powys County Council recently and received an account from him of the work that they are doing. Interestingly, in relation to Suzy Davies’s earlier point, occupational therapy services are one of the very first things that they believe they can provide as a single service across both authorities. They tell me that good progress is being made. We’ve provided grant funding of more than £300,000 to assist the council and the LHB to get that collaboration off the ground, and I look forward to seeing further practical fruits of those endeavours.

Steffan Lewis (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

4. Will the Minister make a statement on city deals? OAQ(5)0051(FLG)

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Thank you for the question.

Rwy’n parhau’n ymrwymedig i ddatblygu cytundebau yng Nghymru fel arf i annog twf economaidd a chydweithio pellach. Mae Llywodraeth Cymru wedi cael trafodaethau helaeth am gytundebau â Llywodraeth y DU i sicrhau’r manteision gorau posibl i Gymru.

Steffan Lewis (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

I thank the Cabinet Secretary for his answer. He’ll be aware, I'm sure, of Mark Lang's recent deep place study of Pontypool, where he highlights not simply the challenges facing that once-thriving community, but also the foundations that could be built upon for future success. Ventures like the Cardiff city region and the city deal provide opportunities for towns like Pontypool, but there are also threats as well. So, will he elaborate on how his Government will deliver a multi-hub, multi-growth whole approach to the Cardiff city deal and the city region plan, so that towns like Pontypool are at the centre of those plans, rather than at their periphery?

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Well, the key point that I think Steffan Lewis is making is this, and it's reflected in the work that Mark Lang has been involved in: the Cardiff capital deal is not simply about finding better ways in which people can be attracted to the centre, to Cardiff itself, but a way of spreading prosperity across the whole of that region, and where connectivity means that we can more easily persuade businesses and economic activity to take place right across the region. It's encouraging to see the mechanisms that the deal is putting in place to make sure that projects right across the region are assessed for that impact, and I know that, amongst the 10 leaders of councils who come together to form the leadership of the deal, we see a determination to make sure that its fruits are genuinely provided across the whole of those 10 authorities.

Mohammad Asghar (Conservative, South Wales East)

One component of the Cardiff city deal is the creation of the Cardiff capital region skills and employment board. One of the jobs in its hands is to ensure that the skills and employment provision is responsive to the needs of local businesses and communities. Can the Cabinet Secretary update the Assembly on Welsh Government financial support for skills and employment provision in the Cardiff city region and how this will deliver benefits to south-east Wales, please?

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Well, I thank Mohammad Asghar for the question. He’s right to point to the creation of that board, and I was encouraged to see that the board contained not simply the local authorities themselves, but education representatives, employer representatives and third sector representatives as well. The £1.3 billion deal that we are providing for the Cardiff capital region is a combination of local authorities’ own funding, funding that will come from the UK Government and funding that will come from the European Union, but the bulk of the funding—the largest contributor—comes from the Welsh Government itself, and it is exactly aligned with those purposes to make sure that, as well as physical connectivity, we have a skills base amongst the local population that means that this is an attractive place for employers to come and create economic opportunity.

Julie Morgan (Labour, Cardiff North)

How does the Cabinet Secretary see the future governance of the Cardiff city region developing? It’s very exciting that the 10 leaders have come together in the way that they have. How does he see this developing in the future?

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Well, Dirprwy Lywydd, it is a very important development that those 10 leaders are committed to make happen, but it is very important indeed that they are able to deliver according to the timescale that they themselves have made a commitment to deliver. Because the model, which is the Cabinet model where all 10 leaders will form the cabinet of the Cardiff capital city deal, is yet to be ratified by the constituent authorities. Every leader is committed to making sure that that arrangement has been ratified by their council before the end of February of next year. My message to them, which I’ve conveyed regularly in meetings to them, is that it is absolutely vital that they deliver on that timetable so that we remain on track in governance terms to draw down the money that is available for the deal.

Russell George (Conservative, Montgomeryshire)

5. Will the Minister make a statement on the application of section 137 of the Local Government Act 1972 relating to the powers of local authorities to incur expenditure? OAQ(5)0056(FLG)

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

I thank Russell George for the question. This section 137 power allows a community or town council to incur a limited amount of expenditure for purposes for which it has no other specific power or duty, and which will bring direct benefit to their area or any part of it.

Russell George (Conservative, Montgomeryshire)

Cabinet Secretary, Llanfair Caereinion Town Council have been in correspondence with me on this issue for some time. The town council are keen to take on the running of the town library from county council control. If this doesn’t happen then it’s fearful the town library is likely to close.

Now, legal advice provided to the town council actively prohibits them from funding the library under section 137 of the Local Government Act 1972. However, the local authority has received opposing legal advice. I’m grateful to you for writing to me on this matter today in quite some detail—I appreciate that, Cabinet Secretary. Would you agree to provide clarity on the application of section 137 in this regard?

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

I’m grateful to Russell George for drawing this to my attention and providing copies of the correspondence from Llanfair Caereinion and Powys County Council, which illustrates the point that he is making. My officials have already provided advice to other town and community councils in Powys, and in general, our advice is that the financial restriction set out in section 137(4) continues to apply in circumstances where a town or community council seeks to exercise the well-being power contained in the Local Government Act 2000 to support the required expenditure. However, you do have to apply that general principle in every particular set of circumstances, and that’s the debate that is currently taking place between some town and community councils and Powys County Council itself.

What I will say to the Member is this: I intend to bring forward proposals as part of any consultation on local government reform to clarify the law in relation to the power and capabilities of town and community councils in taking on services and assets. So, even if there is some ambiguity or difference of view at present, I want to support town and community councils in the important efforts they are making to sustain services in local communities. We’ll take advantage of any consultation we bring forward to try and do just that.

Mike Hedges (Labour, Swansea East)

Historically, in the pre-poll-tax days, local authorities were able to use the equivalent of the product of the penny rate to carry out activity for the benefit of their local area. Does that Cabinet Secretary agree with me that what is needed, and what local authorities have asked for for as long as I can remember, is a power of general competence for local authorities, so that if it’s for the benefit of their area, it’s what the council votes for, it’s what constituents want, then they can spend money on it.

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Mike Hedges is absolutely right and he reminds us that, in the draft Bill on local government that the previous Minister brought forward, there was exactly that proposal: to provide a general power of competence to principle authorities and, indeed, a power of competence to town and community councils that were able to reach a certain threshold of competence in their own affairs. While we’ve not been able, up until now, to reach an agreement on some important parts of reform of local government, that was an aspect that was generally welcomed, and I definitely intend to take it forward if I have an opportunity to do so.

John Griffiths (Labour, Newport East)

6. Will the Minister make a statement on the overall budget allocation to the education portfolio? OAQ(5)0065(FLG)

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

As set out in the draft budget published last month, the budget allocation for the education main expenditure group next year is £1.99 billion.

John Griffiths (Labour, Newport East)

Cabinet Secretary, a big part of the job of Government is to decide on priorities, and for me there is no higher priority than education. I believe a well-educated population benefits all aspects of life and life chances in communities. In addition to that, the recent report by Gerry Holtham and Brian Morgan looked at economic development policy across the world and found the strongest correlation between spending on schools and economic success. So, I very much welcome the recent new allocation, but I wonder if, going forward, together with the First Minister and your cabinet colleagues, you will continue to consider very carefully whether additional resources can be made available to our schools in Wales.

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

I thank John Griffiths for that. He makes a point that others have made this afternoon: that investment in human capital is one of the most powerful ways in which we can continue to sustain our economy and our economic prosperity into the future. Figures published last week by the Treasury showed that expenditure on education in Wales continues to be 4 per cent higher than in England. The draft budget that I published has, by itself, more than £90 million extra to the baseline to be able to make the pupil deprivation grant a permanent part of our funding in Wales; £20 million above that to raise school standards; and £0.5 billion going primarily to the twenty-first century schools programme, of which £28 million is there for Newport. I hope the Member will be assured from that that, even when tough priorities have to be set, the requirement to go on investing in education is one that is much in our minds.

Lee Waters (Labour, Llanelli)

7. What discussions has the Minister had with the Board of the National Procurement Services on the readiness of local authorities to share procurement practice? OAQ(5)0052(FLG)

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Those discussions do take place and they have focused on the results of the first round of procurement fitness checks, which my colleague Jane Hutt sponsored in the last Assembly. The results are available to assist those local authorities who may need support with specific aspects of their procurement practice.

Lee Waters (Labour, Llanelli)

Thank you. At the last meeting of the board of the National Procurement Service, it was revealed that only three local authorities have been willing to share data on how they lease vehicles. What can the Cabinet Secretary do to require data sharing, and once that data is with the NPS, what can he do to make sure the focus isn’t just on cost savings, but on capturing the value to local economies?

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

It’s an interesting question that the Member raises and, actually, car leasing turns out to be a more complex subject than I first realised when I was originally briefed some time ago by the National Procurement Service on this topic. There is a Wales-wide National Procurement Service framework for car hire that all local authorities participate in, but that’s only for cars that are being hired for up to a week. If you want to hire a vehicle for more than a week, you have two choices in Wales: you can become part of the Crown Commercial Service system, and three local authorities in Wales have chosen to be a part of that, but it doesn’t suit all local authorities in Wales, particularly those from rural areas. They prefer to enter into long-term hire arrangements, most often with those companies that they use from the car-hire framework. The car-hire framework provides eight or nine different companies that you can choose to hire from. Local authorities in Wales do not choose the cheapest supplier. Why is that? It’s because they make a conscious decision to hire from local suppliers because of the effect that that has on jobs and other economic prosperity in their localities. So, the point that the Member makes is an important one and I think the data suggest that it is actively in the minds of local authorities when they make these decisions.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

8. What assessment has the Minister made of the impact that the apprenticeship levy will have on the block grant? OAQ(5)0058(FLG)

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

The apprenticeship levy is a UK Government employment tax that directly conflicts with areas of devolved competence. It does not provide significant new money for Wales. Any positive consequentials as a result of it are largely offset by negative consequentials and the additional costs to public sector providers.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Thank you for that answer, Cabinet Secretary. It is worrying to see that, in fact, what we are getting from the UK central Government is being taken away in another part, but also we are funding our public bodies and they have to put that money back to the Treasury under the apprenticeship levy. Can you give guarantees that the money will be used for apprenticeships? There are many bodies I’ve met with that happen to pay this levy and therefore feel that they’re being penalised for actually trying to take on apprentices but are not getting anything back. In England I know there’s a voucher system, but here we seem to have nothing.

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Let me provide the figures for Members to see. It takes me back to almost the very first question I was asked by Andrew R.T. Davies when I said that the small print in all of this is important. So, in the spending review settlement, the Treasury announced that there was to be £114 million added to the Welsh block grant as a result of the apprenticeship levy. Had you read further down the page into the small print, you would have discovered that, at the same time, £90 million was being taken out of the block grant because of a reduction in English apprenticeship programmes. If you had read further down the page again, you would have discovered that Welsh public sector bodies were being required to pay in £30 million to the apprenticeship levy scheme. So, we were being given £114 million and £120 million was being taken away. That’s why, on days like today, it’s important to wait to see the whole story before making any spending commitments.

As a result of combined pressure from all devolved administrations, the Treasury announced within the last week or so a change to the basis of calculation of the apprenticeship levy, which will provide and extra £13.7 million for Wales next year. I will be in discussions with Cabinet colleagues as to how that money can be invested. But any idea that there are millions and millions of pounds coming to Wales through the apprenticeship levy is simply a fiction.

Hannah Blythyn (Labour, Delyn)

9. Will the Minister make a statement on how EU structural funds are assisting businesses and employment in north Wales? OAQ(5)0064(FLG)

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Since 2007, Dirprwy Lywydd, EU projects in north Wales have helped 9,300 people into work, created 2,340 apprenticeships and 7,660 jobs.

Hannah Blythyn (Labour, Delyn)

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. EU funds have helped enable innovation in north Wales, assisting the likes of ADC Biotechnology based in OpTIC in St Asaph, as well as ESF funding supporting the provision of intensive support and a range of bespoke interventions to help get people closer to the labour market through the North Wales Economic Ambition board’s OPUS programme and, of course, Jobs Growth Wales. This is just a snapshot of what EU funds have helped make happen in north Wales. Cabinet Secretary, can our organisations and communities in north Wales count on the Welsh Government’s continued support to draw down EU funding to support business and jobs in the region?

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

I’m grateful to the Member for the opportunity to restate the Welsh Government’s position, which is, for as long as we remain in membership of the European Union, we will try and draw down the maximum possible investment for the benefit of communities across Wales. By the end of this month, as a result of accelerating the programme in the conditions we now face, we will have agreements in place covering 60 per cent of the £1.9 billion-worth of EU structural fund allocations. We will continue to make approvals beyond that and those approvals will apply to north Wales as much as to any other part of our nation.

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Thank you very much, Cabinet Secretary.

2. 2. Questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Environment and Rural Affairs

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

We move on to item 2, which is questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Environment and Rural Affairs. Question 1—Russell George.

Russell George (Conservative, Montgomeryshire)

1. Will the Minister make a statement on the application of the Environmental Protection Act 1990 in Wales? OAQ(5)0055(ERA)

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Thank you. The Environmental Protection Act 1990 provides controls and supports enforcement on a number of issues, including the disposal of controlled waste, litter and remedial action for contaminated land. Under the devolution settlement, we have successfully amended the Act to enable its application to more specifically address Wales’s needs.

Russell George (Conservative, Montgomeryshire)

In a letter to me on 7 November, Cabinet Secretary, you said that you saw no need to amend the Environmental Protection Act 1990, which states that local authorities have a statutory obligation to provide residents with at least one facility where they may deposit their household waste. Now, in light of the closure of the recycling centre in Machynlleth, coupled with the fact that the local authority is now considering the closure of further recycling centres in either Newtown or Welshpool, can I urge you to consider amending section 51 of the Act in order to allow every resident in Wales to have access to a recycling centre within a reasonable distance from their home, as opposed to an 80-mile potential trip, as might now be the case in some areas of rural Wales?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

I know we have exchanged correspondence on this issue, and I think I probably said in the letter to you that local authorities do have a high degree of autonomy and flexibility on this issue, and that allows them, really, to respond to local needs and reflect local priorities. I would still encourage people to participate in the consultation that is taking place in Powys, and I still don’t see any need to amend section 51 of the Act at the current time. However, I’m happy to review the position if circumstances in Powys, or anywhere else for that matter, necessitate that.

Mike Hedges (Labour, Swansea East)

2. Will the Minister make a statement on efforts to tackle Japanese knotweed? OAQ(5)0056(ERA)

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Thank you. I’m taking forward a number of initiatives designed to tackle this invasive species. These include the continuation of biocontrol trials to establish a non-native psyllid and the development of a fungus-based herbicide designed specifically to control this plant.

Mike Hedges (Labour, Swansea East)

Can I thank the Minister for that response? Knotweed is a major problem in Swansea East, making houses difficult to sell and spreading onto neighbouring properties. I’m very pleased with the update the Minister gave me on experiments with a natural predator and on chemical attempts to attack it. The natural predator has been used now for several years, when will the decision be made on whether it can be used more generally?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Well, you are aware, obviously, of the results of the chemical trials that were held by Swansea University. They were published last year, and I think what they showed was there wasn’t a one-hit wonder, really, in relation to tackling this very difficult condition. There has been a planned series of treatments, which is absolutely the key to having effective control. I don’t know if Members are aware, but since the trial ended, the most effective herbicide tested, piclorum, has now been withdrawn from the market. We are continuing to fund biocontrol projects, and that really builds on the successes of the earlier trials. The phase that we’re looking at now will focus upon psyllid establishment with release to a wider range of sites, using enhanced release methods with new psyllid stock from Japan. I think the aim is for, then, the insects to suppress Japanese knotweed’s vigour so it won’t be the aggressive invader that it is now.

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

I thank the Member for asking the question, actually. Japanese knotweed is estimated to cost £165 million to the UK economy each year, and the Residential Landlord Association has warned that it can have such a detrimental effect on the value of property it can render it worthless. The previous Minister did say that a natural predator had been found that will help in the control of Japanese knotweed and was being trialled in Swansea. I ask the Minister—the Cabinet Secretary—can you provide an update on the roll-out: how successful it’s been and whether you do have any intention to use a special control order in the future to tackle this issue?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

This is something that I am monitoring and, as I said, we are continuing to fund the trials. We’ve just funded phase 2 this year of the biocontrol trials, so I think we need to evaluate that before making any decisions on the way forward.

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Thank you.

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

We now turn to party spokespeople’s questions, and the first party spokesperson is Simon Thomas.

Simon Thomas (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. Cabinet Secretary, 2016 is on track to be the warmest year since records began, and the effects of climate change are already being felt, as we’ve seen, indeed, over the last few days here in Wales. Now, your draft budget proposes cuts of 38 per cent in the capital expenditure for climate change mitigation and flood defence projects. Following the announcements of the autumn statement today of some, at least, additional capital funds for the Welsh Government, albeit only about the sum that’s used to repair a big house in London, shouldn’t you now be looking to reinstate some of these funds into your capital projects budget for flood defence?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

I’m sure the Assembly Member will be pleased to learn that I think a letter is already winging its way to my colleague the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Local Government. You will have heard Mark Drakeford say—obviously, he was on his feet for the tail end of the Chancellor’s announcement—certainly, once we’ve had a look at the small print, and the Minister’s had the chance to look at all our bids, we can have a look at what extra funding we can each have.

Simon Thomas (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

I thank the Cabinet Secretary, and I’m pleased that she’s taking the advantage to ask for those to be reinstated. We understand £400 million will be available for the next five years. That would suggest around £80 million in this financial year, though I accept that we have to look at the detail. But we have to show leadership on this, and you’ve just returned from the Conference of the Parties 22 in Marrakech, and I was very pleased that you’d been there. Now we understand that even Donald Trump accepts some connectivity, as he puts it, between climate change and our activities, which means that UKIP have been outflanked by Donald Trump on climate change. Can I welcome the announcement that you made at Marrakech that Wales will be one of the six European regions to sign up for the UN 2050 pathways platform to increase co-operation between all levels of Government on the delivery of climate change measures on the ground? Can you provide any more details regarding how you intend to accelerate our delivery of climate change measures, including that all-important aim of cutting emissions by 40 per cent by 2020?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Thank you. Yes, I was very pleased to attend COP22, and I don’t think it was too short to say that it was a life-changing experience. I met some inspirational people, and I hope Members have had the opportunity to read the written statement I issued last night. You’re quite right that our target is to reduce carbon emissions by 40 per cent by 2020. That’s a cross-Government commitment. I had bilaterals before I went to Marrakech with my Cabinet Secretary colleagues so I could find out what they were doing within their portfolios. I now plan to have another series of bilaterals, because, clearly, we’ve had a lot to learn from a lot of states and regions. I took the opportunity to have many bilaterals with environment Ministers and other leading politicians from the states and regions. We, of course, have got a lot to learn, but I think it was absolutely vital that we were there. We were part of the UK delegation, but it was very important that I took the message that in Wales, although we’re a small country, we are absolutely happy to play our part in reducing our carbon emissions.

Simon Thomas (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

I thank the Cabinet Secretary. It was obvious from your tweets that you were enjoying yourself there, and I mean that in a professional way, and also, of course, from the written statement, which, again, was full of positive messages from COP22. I only regret that the Assembly didn’t get its act together in time to send Assembly Members to accompany you, because I think that will be appropriate for the future.

One of the things that was agreed there—and, again, it was a positive message—was that 47 of the world’s countries most affected by climate change have pledged to use only renewable fuels by 2050. You also told the conference, I think in a blog post, that all electricity bought by the Welsh procurement service for the public sector will be 100 per cent renewable by next year, which I think is laudable, although there is a question always about what is 100 per cent renewable under EU directives, but that’s another matter. What I really want to know is how you will achieve and build and maintain this, and don’t you think, as we move now to a more sustainable future, now is really the time for a Wales-owned non-profit-sharing public energy company to lead the way to be part of the step change in renewables that we need?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Yes, I was very pleased to announce that all electricity bought for public services in Wales by the National Procurement Service from next year will be 100 per cent renewable, and there was a great deal of interest from other states and nations as to how we’re going to achieve that. I will be making a statement next month on energy policies for this term of Government, and it’s certainly something I can consider.

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Conservatives’ spokesperson, David Melding.

David Melding (Conservative, South Wales Central)

Cabinet Secretary, are you disappointed that Stop Climate Chaos Cymru has said that Ministers are yet to deliver on climate change policy, and that WWF Cymru warns of an ambition gap?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Well, I don’t think there’s an ambition gap, and I mentioned in my previous answer to Simon Thomas that I had bilaterals with my Cabinet Secretary colleagues before I went to COP22. That was very specifically done. I don’t think there’s a lack of ambition in any portfolio across Government. I do accept that, for us to achieve our target of reducing carbon emissions by 2020, we need to look at doing some things differently, and I mentioned again that I will be having another round of meetings with my colleagues in the coming weeks.

David Melding (Conservative, South Wales Central)

Cabinet Secretary, carbon budgets are at the heart of the environment Act, and they’re now not expected until the end of 2018. And I think it’s reasonable for us to ask, ‘Why the delay?’ Does it really take three years to produce the first carbon budgets? We’ll be halfway through this Assembly, and those budgets are supposed to help you prioritise and us to scrutinise.

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Yes, we have started the process of getting our carbon budgets in place. Again, I think we need to do more to align those carbon budgets with our financial budgets, and something I learned at COP22 was how this was being done in other countries. If I can expedite it in any way, I will do so.

David Melding (Conservative, South Wales Central)

Minister, to emphasise the drift in policy implementation, I must ask why the strategic impact assessments for your department are so vague. They’re at the heart of the future generations Act, and they do not seem to have played much of a part in your budget priorities or choices. Is it not the truth that this Government is keen on legislation, but very poor on implementation, as Stop Climate Chaos Cymru and WWF have so correctly observed?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

You are right that we have the future generations Act, we have the environment Act, we’ve got this world-breaking legislation, and it is now all about implementation. I don’t think my SI assessments are vague. I think they’re a very important part, obviously, of our budget. I think that they can be improved on going forward, and I think, when I mentioned in my previous answer about carbon budgets and finance budgets being more aligned, the reason why I said that is so that it does improve year on year.

Neil Hamilton (UKIP, Mid and West Wales)

I thank Simon Thomas for acting as the warm-up act to the series of questions I’m about to put on related topics. The Cabinet Secretary will be aware that the Welsh Government has required Powys County Council to increase its generating targets for electricity from renewables—from wind power, in fact—from 50 MW, to 600 MW. That could see another 200 to 300 windmills desecrating the landscape of mid Wales, over 40 per cent of all the landmass of Powys outside the Beacons national park, and up to 14 turbines could automatically, therefore, be approved, because of the presumption of planning approval under the development plan at Abergwesyn, the Begwns, Pant-y-Llyn Hill, Merthyr Cynog, Llandegley, Abbey-cwm-hir, and Hirnant. Local residents are very concerned about the impact that such developments would have upon their daily lives. Given that these projects can make no tangible difference to climate change, and even if you believe in the connection between increased carbon dioxide and global warming, is it really worth wrecking people’s lives and landscape?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Well, I was very pleased to answer Simon Thomas’s questions about the very important conference that I attended last week. I’m not going to debate whether I believe in something with a Member of UKIP, frankly. That science has been there for many years.

Neil Hamilton (UKIP, Mid and West Wales)

This is a democratic forum, isn’t it? What are we here for?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

In relation to windfarms, I do understand that some people have concerns about it, but I would think that those people would also be concerned if, when they put the light on, it didn’t come on. It’s about making sure that we absolutely invest in renewable energy going forward.

Neil Hamilton (UKIP, Mid and West Wales)

Well, the Cabinet Secretary clearly doesn’t understand that part of the problem with reliance on renewables is that the lights may well not come on when you press the switch. At the moment, the National Grid is generating 3.33 per cent of power from renewables, compared with 17.32 per cent from coal and 49.68 per cent by combined-cycle gas turbines. Combined-cycle gas turbine generation has to be maintained in order to cope with the intermittent nature of wind. The Campaign for the Protection of Rural Wales has denounced as futile the reliance upon intermittent energy sources because of this duplication of cost, because the average capacity factor of wind turbines is only 20 per cent. So, for 80 per cent of the time they’re not generating enough wind and, therefore, they have to be supplemented by other sources of generation, doubling the capital cost and also in the process, of course, emitting carbon dioxide emissions because of the energy intensive nature of what needs to be created through their capital costs.

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

I absolutely recognise that existing energy sources such as coal play an important role in the Welsh economy and in providing our energy, but what we need to look at is not just the current energy mix but the energy mix going forward. In light of the Paris agreement, which you may not want to sign up to, but I’m absolutely happy to sign up to and I think most Members in this Chamber would be happy to sign up to, we are committed to a transition away from those sources of energy unless appropriate decarbonisation technologies come on stream. So, it’s absolutely vital that we invest in renewable energy and alternative energy sources going forward.

Neil Hamilton (UKIP, Mid and West Wales)

Well, under the Paris agreements, of course, India is going to treble its carbon dioxide emissions in the next 15 years and China is going to double them whilst we are making the sacrifices, which have been the subject of my questions this afternoon. But the Cabinet Secretary has responsibility also for rural affairs and the countryside, and tourism is vitally important in mid Wales. Littering the countryside with windmills is going to do nothing to attract tourists to mid Wales. I’m asking the Cabinet Secretary—just to have a sense of proportion on this—there are plenty of places in which you can build windfarms or generate electricity in other renewable ways by solar panels, et cetera, in areas of outstanding natural beauty that might not be national parks; would it not be better not to have these windfarms and to concentrate on building them elsewhere?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Well, maybe when the Member learns a bit more about Wales you’ll find that we’re very rich in renewable resources. It’s about balance, so the short answer to your question is ‘no’.

Darren Millar (Conservative, Clwyd West)

3. Will the Minister make a statement on flood risk management in north Wales? OAQ(5)0054(ERA)

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Thank you. The Welsh Government’s flood and coastal risk management programmes are actively addressing risk across north Wales in line with our national strategy. This includes major work at St Asaph, appraisals for 20 potential coastal schemes and over 70 small-scale projects to build resilience and undertake essential maintenance.

Darren Millar (Conservative, Clwyd West)

Thank you for that response, Cabinet Secretary. Can I thank you also for the work that the Welsh Government has done in helping to protect homes in my own constituency from flooding? But there is a great concern, which I’ve raised in this Chamber on many occasions, about the Old Colwyn east promenade and the vulnerability of that part of the coast to flooding, particularly given its protection of vital infrastructure in north Wales for the transport networks, in particular the A55 and the north Wales railway line. I know that a number of parties need to come together to resolve that particular problem, but given the Welsh Government’s interest in protecting the A55 in particular, I’d be very grateful if the Welsh Government could take the lead on this issue and bring these parties together so we can crack on and protect that part of the coast, particularly given the improvements that have been made elsewhere in the Colwyn Bay area.

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Well, it is an issue and we are bringing parties together and my officials do continue to work with Conwy County Borough Council to try and find an appropriate solution. But I know that no decision has yet been made because we do need that work to be done. So, I’d be grateful if you too could encourage your local authority.

Llyr Gruffydd (Plaid Cymru, North Wales)

The reality is, of course, Cabinet Secretary, that the Government has cut the capital budget for flood defences. Of course, that is going to place even more pressure on the need to develop alternative strategies and work with landowners, for example, to retain water in the uplands and so on and so forth. But, of course, the Government has been talking about that for many years and NRW has been talking about it for many years. But the move to that modus operandi hasn’t actually happened to the extent that would make a real difference. So, can I ask you what additional incentives you as a Government are considering in terms of landowners, to see that decisive shift in that way of working? And, more specifically, what consideration are you giving to providing enhanced incentives to landowners and farmers to use their land as overflow areas, because that would make a difference in areas such as the Conwy valley?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

That isn’t a discussion I’ve had with the farming representatives, but I think it is something that certainly I can look to do. I do want to remind Members that we are still investing £55 million across Wales this financial year, and whilst we have seen some flooding, particularly down in south Wales, this week, I think that, because of the defences we have put in place and the financial investment that we have made, we have seen it on less of a scale. But, of course, that’s no comfort if your home has been flooded.

We’ve also got the £150 million coastal risk management programme, on which, again, we’re working very closely with local authorities to implement. But, I’d certainly be very happy—. I’m meeting the farming unions in the next couple of weeks, and I’d certainly be very happy to have that discussion with them.

Llyr Gruffydd (Plaid Cymru, North Wales)

4. Will the Minister make a statement on the effect of Brexit on environmental policy in Wales? OAQ(5)0064(ERA)[W]

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Diolch. Our world-leading Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015 and Environment (Wales) Act 2016 put in place a strong foundation ahead of Brexit and deliver on the Convention on Biological Diversity, the Paris agreement and the UN global goals. They provide a clear direction based on key international obligations, which will not change as a result of Brexit.

Llyr Gruffydd (Plaid Cymru, North Wales)

Could I ask what assessment of the implications of Brexit for Wales as a GM-free nation has been made? Can I ask you to commit to protect that status in any negotiations that you have?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

That hasn’t been looked at initially as part of the implications, but, certainly, we will continue to take the precautionary approach we have taken over the past years.

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

Clearly, the environment knows no borders or boundaries. What is the Welsh Government’s view on the form of enforcement mechanism that will be required at a UK level for environment policy after we leave the EU? Evidence to the External Affairs and Additional Legislation Committee from Aberystwyth University refers to discussions about the creation of a UK environment court. A representative from the University of York said,

‘Whether or not it needs to be an environmental court, I’m not quite sure… but if I were a lawyer, I’d be sitting here saying, “No, we need a new court”.’

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Again, I haven’t looked into the issue of a court in great detail. I’m actually meeting Andrea Leadsom tomorrow, so it’s certainly something I can discuss. We’ve been very clear that the powers that have been devolved to this place since 1999 will be here. They may go into the repeal Act initially, but any powers will then come to us for us to have our own environmental policies going forward.

Jenny Rathbone (Labour, Cardiff Central)

The air quality directive is one of the most important EU directives. Governments are required to achieve compliance by the soonest possible date that reduces exposure as quickly as possible. The Air Quality Standards (Wales) Regulations 2010 require Welsh Ministers to draw up and implement air quality plans to address pollution in the relevant zones, one of which is Cardiff. You will, I’m sure, be aware that the Government has been found wanting in the High Court, acting on behalf of the devolved administrations, and that Mr Justice Garnham has now ordered the UK Government and, presumably, the Welsh Government to produce new plans by the end of April 2017. I just wondered whether you could, in your discussions with Andrea Leadsom, tell us how we are going to accelerate our plans to reduce air pollution in Cardiff, which, as you know, is killing over 40,000 people across the UK before their time.

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

I am, of course, aware of the UK Government High Court ruling. Members will be aware that I’m out to consultation at the moment regarding air quality and noise management. That consultation is open until 6 December. I plan to use the evidence and the responses we get as part of that consultation—use the evidence going forward to when we have to then come forward with our response by the spring of next year.

Simon Thomas (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

5. Will the Minister make a statement on promoting Welsh seafood? OAQ(5)066(ERA)[W]

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Thank you. We are working to develop and promote our seafood sector in Wales for both domestic and export markets. I recently launched the new seafood strategy during Welsh Seafood Week, aimed at growing the economic value of the sector. We will again promote the sector at the Seafood Expo Global event in 2017.

Simon Thomas (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

Thank you for that answer, Minister. The seafood strategy you’ve just alluded to—who actually owns that strategy? As I understand it, it’s Seafish Wales’s strategy and not the Government’s strategy. Can you, therefore, confirm that the Government agrees with the strategy and wants to see the aims of that strategy being realised and, specifically, given that the strategy gives a target of a 30 per cent growth in seafood produce from Wales, how would you attain that target, bearing in mind the aims that you have under the Environment (Wales) Act 2016 and, of course, the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

The strategy was brought together by working—certainly my officials working—with the industry. They developed that. I launched it, as you say. And that vision for the strategy, I think, is shared by Government and by the industry and that’s to have a thriving, vibrant, safe and sustainable seafood industry for Wales. I think it’s absolutely right that we promote the quality and the sustainability of Welsh seafood products—that enhances the reputation—and, to achieve that, my officials will, again, be working, not just with the industry, but other partners also.

Paul Davies (Conservative, Preseli Pembrokeshire)

Cabinet Secretary, I also recognise the Welsh Government’s seafood strategy, which aims to see a 30 per cent increase in fisheries and aquaculture production by 2025. In this strategy, you mention expanding sustainable aquaculture production and, in relation to that, can you tell us what the Welsh Government is specifically doing to encourage the sustainable development of new fisheries in Welsh waters?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

It’s very important, as I said, that, if we’re going to achieve that vision, we have—. A key action is to promote the quality and sustainability of our seafood product. It’s very important that anything that we do, going forward, is based on evidence and on science and, for instance, that’s what I did when I agreed to an extension of the scallop bed in Cardiganshire.

Rhianon Passmore (Labour, Islwyn)

6. What is the Welsh Government doing to combat landscape crime? OAQ(5)0062(ERA)

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Landscape crime, including fly-tipping and illegal off-roading, is an issue the Welsh Government takes very seriously and is committed to tackling. The Environmental Protection Act 1990 and the Clean Neighbourhoods and Environment Act 2005 provide a range of powers to allow local authorities to deal with those who undertake environmental crime.

Rhianon Passmore (Labour, Islwyn)

Diolch, Minister. Recently, I chaired a multi-agency meeting at the iconic Valleys tourist hotspot, Cwmcarn Forest Drive, addressing the real concerns about the rise in landscape crime, and specifically at Twmbarlwm tump. Representatives from Caerphilly, Blaenau Gwent and Torfaen councils attended, along with the police and fire service as well as the Gwent police and crime commissioner.

In September 2015, a south-east Wales uplands landscape crime toolkit was commissioned to develop an innovative toolkit for tackling landscape crime within an area encompassed by a number of local authorities. This important project was funded through the groundbreaking Welsh Government nature fund, which was a £6 million fund announced in 2013 by the Minister for Natural Resources and Food, with the aim of promoting joined-up collaborative and area-based actions. Will the Minister outline what support the Welsh Government can give to support the local authorities and partner agencies to combat the scourge of landscape crime?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Thank you. Our rural development programme’s £10 million sustainable management scheme has been designed to achieve multiple benefits and that includes combating anti-social and illegal activities on our valuable upland landscape. I would again urge all parties interested in this to submit expressions of interest.

You mentioned the landscape crime toolkit and that was delivered as part of our Forgotten Landscapes project, part of the nature fund. That outlines mechanisms to manage, mitigate and treat a range of anti-social behaviour in an upland landscape and maps out an approach that could be then transferred to other areas of Wales.

I’m aware of a number of activities that have since been undertaken to directly address criminal activity and that includes off-road prevention operations, combating fly-tipping actions, and firebreaks to minimise the impact of arson and natural wild fires.

Mohammad Asghar (Conservative, South Wales East)

Clearing of fly-tipping cost councils in South Wales East nearly £385,000 in 2014-15. Fly-tipping damages the landscape and natural habitats and has an adverse effect on tourism, as my colleague’s just mentioned, and is also a health hazard for the people who walk with their children and their pets alike. In South Wales East, in different areas, under the bridges, behind the bus shelters, behind the bushes, when you go across small roads, and even some dual carriageways, there’s a serious, serious problem of fly-tipping, Cabinet Secretary. What further action can the Welsh Government take to tackle the problem of fly-tipping in South Wales East and get rid of this problem, like Singapore in the far east, which actually gives a severe punishment to the people who do this sort of crime? Thank you.

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

We have invested greatly in fighting this, and it is a crime and illegal. We’ve funded Fly-tipping Action Wales initiatives since 2007 and work very closely with them. One thing that we are thinking of doing, going forward, is—some local authorities have said to me, ‘Sometimes, it can just be one black bin bag that’s been left there.’ So, we’re looking at consulting on whether we should implement fixed-penalty notices for small-scale fly-tipping, because, certainly, local authorities have said to me they think that would help with the matter.

Vikki Howells (Labour, Cynon Valley)

Illegal off-road biking is a type of landscape crime that harms our natural landscape and can also pose a danger to the public. Natural Resources Wales recently revealed that 22 people had been arrested for illegal off-road biking in south Wales in November alone, and many residents I’ve spoken to in my constituency have highlighted the problems caused by this activity. What actions are the Welsh Government taking to tackle this type of landscape crime?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Thank you. Illegal off-roading is a criminal offence, so, therefore, it is a matter for the police, but we’re encouraging stakeholders and members of the public to work with the police and other partners, including Natural Resources Wales and local authorities, to help tackle this issue. I think we have seen an increase in this sort of activity, so it’s very important that, as I say, all partners come together to tackle this.

Joyce Watson (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

7. Will the Welsh Government make a statement on the ecological status of Welsh inland and coastal waters? OAQ(5)0063(ERA)

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Thank you. Natural Resources Wales is working with land managers and other stakeholders to improve working practices and deliver status improvements in Wales’s water bodies. This year, 97 of our 103 designated bathing waters have been classified as ‘excellent’ or ‘good’, making Welsh beaches amongst some of the best in Europe.

Joyce Watson (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Yes, I’ve seen that figure and I thank you for that answer. It is, indeed, really good news. But I want to focus on what we’re doing in terms of the water framework directive, and the stats for inland and coastal waters aren’t quite so good. In fact, only 37 per cent are in ‘good’ or ‘excellent’ ecological condition. I understand that things like historical industry, physical modifications and other factors play their part, but it does suggest that, following on from what you’ve just said, where we put effort in, we get results out. So, my question is: what measures are you thinking of bringing forward, Cabinet Secretary, so that we can boost the recovery of all our water, including specifically freshwater?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Thank you. You are quite right that 37 per cent of all water bodies in Wales achieve ‘good’ or better status, and I aim to increase that, going forward. Natural Resources Wales are targeting their resources to work with land managers and other stakeholders to improve working practices, and that, I think, will bring forward status improvements. You’re right about historical industry and, certainly, since I’ve come into post and had a look—you can see that pollution from abandoned metal mines, for instance, is one of the reasons. But it’s not an excuse and we need to do more, so I’ve given extra funding to Natural Resources Wales to specifically tackle that significant issue, and that’s through the metal mine remediation project. Agricultural pollution is also a significant issue in Wales and, again, in Pembrokeshire, we have a particular problem, so, again, officials are working very closely with NRW and also with the farming community so that we can develop practical and deliverable solutions on this issue.

Paul Davies (Conservative, Preseli Pembrokeshire)

Cabinet Secretary, the most recent west Wales river basin management plan acknowledges a number of significant water-management issues, including physical modifications—such as changing water channels and building structures—which Joyce Watson mentioned earlier, which currently affect 25 per cent of the water environment in the area. Therefore, what guidance or support can the Welsh Government offer to local authorities, and, indeed, stakeholders in west Wales, to ensure that any new modifications that are made do not have a negative impact on the water environment, and are actually sustainable and as environmentally sensitive as possible?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Well, as I said in my answer to Joyce Watson, it’s very important that Natural Resources Wales work with land managers and other stakeholders, and that includes local authorities. I’ve given extra funding to tackle certain issues, but it’s really important that stakeholders and all partners work together around this issue.

Simon Thomas (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

We haven’t mentioned nitrate vulnerable zones yet, which is one of the tools that the Government is proposing to use to tackle water quality and run-off. Can I draw the Minister’s attention to the approach being taken in parts of France, and particularly in Brittany, which I saw over the summer, where they use an agroforestry approach called ‘bocage’, or ‘argoed’, as we would call it in Welsh? I think the Bretons have a similar word, but I won’t try the Breton pronunciation. This is the planting of hedgerows and trees, on which an EU report says the following. It demonstrates

‘that nutrient uptake by trees reduces soil nitrate concentration, and that denitrification can reduce the loss of nitrate. At a watershed scale, the nitrate flux brought by water surface decreased when the hedge tree density increased’.

So, there are alternatives, perhaps, to some of the models that the Government is considering, and I would urge her to look at how we could use some natural features and natural tree and hedgerow planting to deal with nitrate run-off, perhaps as an alternative in the nitrate vulnerable zones.

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Yes, I’d certainly be very happy to look at what’s been carried out in Brittany. You’ll be aware that we are currently consulting on the implementation of the nitrates directive in Wales. I think it closes in the next couple of weeks. So, again, I would encourage all interested parties to read the consultation and respond accordingly, but, of course, I’m very happy to look at best practice elsewhere.

Steffan Lewis (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

8. Will the Minister make a statement on the Welsh Government’s priorities for energy policy in the south-east? OAQ(5)0053(ERA)

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Thank you. My priority is to accelerate the transition to a low-carbon energy mix with policies that support our strategic objectives as a Government, as set out in ‘Taking Wales Forward’. I’ll be making a statement in December that will outline my energy priorities for the whole of Wales.

Steffan Lewis (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

I thank the Cabinet Secretary for her answer. The south-east, like many other parts of our country, provides great potential for local energy generation that’s renewable, reliable and could benefit local communities. There are exciting plans to harness the energy potential of the Ebbw river on the site of the former Navigation colliery, and low-entropy heat recovery from the old pit too. Will she work with the local community in Crumlin and other interested parties to realise the tremendous potential for energy generation on the site of the former Navigation colliery?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Yes, certainly. I’d be very happy to work with local residents. It’s been really good to see, over the summer, some very good community energy projects; I opened a hydro scheme recently not far from Merthyr Tydfil. So, it’s great to see these communities coming together, bringing forward these ideas for these schemes, and we’d be very happy to support with funding if appropriate.

Mohammad Asghar (Conservative, South Wales East)

Community renewable energy projects allow local communities greater control of energy generation. Could the Cabinet Secretary advise the Assembly how the Welsh Government local energy programme is encouraging and supporting such projects in south-east Wales and elsewhere?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Well, across Wales we are, as I say, encouraging communities to come together with ideas for local renewable energy schemes. We have a pot of funding. I think, at the moment, we’ve got eight. I think eight have been completed and we’ve got six going through, or it might be the other way around, but I’ve seen a couple myself over the summer. I mentioned the hydro scheme. I also visited a community windfarm. So, it is really good to see these projects coming together, and I’m very happy to meet with any Member who wants me to meet with residents, if necessary, to discuss these schemes in detail.

Jenny Rathbone (Labour, Cardiff Central)

The Wales Bill is currently in the Committee Stage in the House of Lords, and, in its current form, it would devolve energy planning powers to Wales for all generation projects up to 350 MW, and that is very welcome because, unlike Neil Hamilton, I’m sure we’re both aware that there are many, many opportunities for the economy of south-east Wales and elsewhere. There have been some amendments tabled in the House of Lords that would enable Wales to take forward all the recommendations in the fourth Assembly’s ‘A Smarter Energy Future for Wales’, which was produced by the environment committee. This would permit the Assembly to legislate on all aspects of the generation, transmission, distribution and supply of electricity, other than nuclear energy. And, as you’ll be aware, Cabinet Secretary, this is often the barrier to small-scale projects, that the transmitters simply charge such an outrageous sum that it kills the project stone dead. So, will the Welsh Government support these new energy amendments in the Wales Bill?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

You will be aware that officials have been having very detailed discussions with the relevant UK departments on the energy consenting provisions in the Bill. A number of amendments went through the Commons; we're very hopeful that further amendments are going to be made to the Bill as it progresses through the House of Lords to address our remaining concerns, and we’ll be watching it very closely.

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

9. Will the Minister make a statement on the use of polystyrene food packaging in Wales? OAQ(5)0067(ERA)

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Thank you. We are currently evaluating our waste strategy to ensure resources are managed to produce sustainable benefits for Wales. We continue to work in partnership with the packaging industry and organisations such as WRAP to promote the optimisation of packaging and to reduce it where possible, regardless of the material.

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

Thank you. You might have seen the BBC One programme last night, ‘Keeping a Lid On It’. It was highlighting problems of four-weekly bin collections in Conwy. But one of the issues that came from that is that about 70 per cent of beach litter in Wales is polystyrene/plastic, and everyone is now with these polystyrene cups for coffee and everything. They’re finding their way now significantly into our landfill. Over 100 cities around the world have banned, or are in the process of banning, polystyrene food packaging, and your predecessor did say last year that he would look at whether there is something in Wales that we could do specifically to address some of these issues. Could you outline what you will do to address this? Will you consider a levy on such items, and are you in a position to report on the findings of the joint research project commissioned by your department between Swansea University and the Marine Conservation Society?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

I didn’t see the programme, but I have read about it today, and you'll be aware that Wales is really leading the way in relation to recycling. If we were a single member state in Europe, we would be fourth in Europe, but, certainly, we’re way ahead of the game in the UK.

In relation to your specific questions around polystyrene, I'm not quite sure why you think that, because we have done some data analysis on this, and polystyrene is not thought to be a major contributor to littering in Wales, except on a very local basis, where it's by the premises that are providing fast food, for instance. It tends to be the independent fast food outlets that use this polystyrene packaging—it’s not well used across Wales. However, any litter is not to be welcomed, and I'm very happy to look at other things.

In relation to a levy on polystyrene, again, would people take—it's not like a carrier bag—would people take a container with them to get their food? So, I think we need to look at other interventions before we introduce a levy. But I'm very interested in packaging across—you know, single-use coffee cups. I'm very happy to look at what we can do in relation to this, to look if we need legislation, and, again, in my meeting tomorrow with Andrea Leadsom, it's on the agenda.

Julie Morgan (Labour, Cardiff North)

I'm sure the Cabinet Secretary is aware that, earlier this year, Oxford became the first city in the United Kingdom to ban non-recyclable packaging from takeaway vans in the city, and under new rules there, all packaging and utensils used by street vendors must be recyclable or biodegradable. So, I think we've already said here how Wales has taken the lead in so many environmental issues. Could she look at what we can do about this, because I think this does seem a good example where steps could be taken forward, and would she consider banning non-biodegradable fast food packing in Wales?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

I've now found the statistics that I have about polystyrene in particular. It was in 2015-16 that Keep Wales Tidy undertook this survey, and they found 5.2 per cent litter was polystyrene, but most of it, 3.2 per cent, consisted of other polystyrene—so, not just the packaging. But 2 per cent of it was the fast food items. I'm very happy to look packaging as a whole, right across the scope of all packaging, because I think, you know, if we could reduce packaging, that would help so much, and whilst we're ahead in recycling, there is still, we know, 50 per cent of black bin waste that could be recycled. So, we need to look at the whole spectrum of packaging going forward.

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Thank you very much, Cabinet Secretary.

3. 3. Questions to the Assembly Commission

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

We now move on to item 3, which is questions to the Assembly Commission. This week, the question will be answered by Joyce Watson.

Mike Hedges (Labour, Swansea East)

1. How many recorded accidents have occurred on the Assembly estate since May 2011? OAQ(5)003(AC)

Joyce Watson (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Thank you for that question. There have been a total of 63 accidents that have been recorded on the estate since 2011. Forty-three of them were by Commission staff, two by Assembly Members, two by Assembly Member support staff, two by Welsh Government staff, four by contractors, and 10 by public visitors.

Mike Hedges (Labour, Swansea East)

Can I thank Joyce Watson for that response? Considering it is over five years, it is not a very large number of accidents, but every accident is one too many. What is being done by the Commission to reduce the number of accidents on the estate?

Joyce Watson (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Identifying, of course, the causes of accidents is where you have to start, and the health and safety adviser does make regular floor walks of the Assembly estate with a full-time trade union officer. Any recorded hazards are assessed and remedied quickly, with each department having its own health and safety champion. But when accidents do occur—and they will—they are investigated by the Commission’s health and safety adviser, who will develop appropriate recommendations and actions. Those are followed up to make sure that they’ve been implemented properly and effectively, but prevention is always better than cure, so all Commission staff are provided with health and safety awareness training as part of their induction, as are Members and their support staff.

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Thank you very much.

4. 4. 90-second Statements

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

We now move on to item 4, which is the 90-second statements. The first of the 90-second statements is Joyce Watson.

Joyce Watson (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Thank you. In 1991, the first White Ribbon campaign was launched by a group of men in Canada after the brutal mass shooting of 14 female students at the University of Montreal, asking men to sign a pledge never to commit, condone or remain silent about violence against women. In 1996, that was adopted in South Africa, and in 1998 Womankind launched the first White Ribbon Day in the UK. In 1991, the UN officially recognised 25 November as the International Day for the Elimination of Violence Against Women, and the white ribbon is now a symbol of hope for a world where women and girls can live free from the fear of violence. Wearing that white ribbon is about challenging the acceptability of that violence.

Since then, the White Ribbon campaign has been adopted by all parts of the UK, and Wales has played a significant part in spreading that message, also joining the worldwide movement that seeks to improve the lot of women who do experience violence against themselves, but also in hope of reducing the numbers who do.

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Thank you very much. The second 90-statement—Mark Isherwood.

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

Diolch. As a Girlguiding Clwyd ambassador, I’m charged to act as a representative to tell others about what Girlguiding does and the opportunities it gives to girls and young women. This month saw the opening in Buckley Library of the ‘Pushing Boundaries’ exhibition that had previously been at the National Library of Wales, charting the history of Girlguiding in Wales to date. Also this month, the national child development study reported that people who are in the Scouts or Guides in childhood have better mental health in their life, stating it could be the lessons in resilience and resolve that such organisations offer that has such a lasting positive impact.

The recently launched Girlguiding Cymru strategic plan, ‘Being Our Best—Bod Ein Gorau’, focuses on four key areas: excellence, access, capacity and voice, and plans the path Girlguiding Cymru will take to 2021. Their vision is to provide an exciting, fun and relevant programme for girls and young women in an equal world where all girls can make a positive difference, be happy, safe and fulfil their potential. Their new strategic plan will help them achieve their vision and ensure that girls in Wales have the best Guiding experience possible. So, let us together support Girlguiding Cymru’s volunteer leaders in their commitment to extending entitlement and upholding the rights of all the girls and young women in their care.

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Thank you very much. The last of the 90-second statements this week is Julie Morgan.

Julie Morgan (Labour, Cardiff North)

Thank you. Idloes Owen. A plaque was unveiled in memory of Idloes Owen at a house in Llandaff North recently. This was part of the seventieth anniversary celebrations of the national opera this year. Idloes Owen lived on Station Road, Llandaff North, in the 1940s. He was the founder, leader and producer of the Welsh National Opera. He was also Sir Geraint Evans’s first tutor. The son of a coalminer, he worked in a coalmine after leaving school at the age of 12. Following a period of illness, and with the support of the community, he managed to gather enough funds to allow him to study music at Cardiff University. Taking part were Ysgol Glan Ceubal, Hawthorn Primary School and Ysgol Gyfun Gymraeg Glantaf. The family who now live at the house are very happy to display the plaque in his memory.

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Thank you very much.

5. 5. Motion to Amend Standing Order 26 in relation to Member Bills

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

We move on to item 5 on the agenda, which is the motion to amend Standing Order 26 in relation to Member Bills. I call on a member of the Business Committee to move the motion—Paul Davies.

Paul Davies (Conservative, Preseli Pembrokeshire)

Formally.

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Thank you. The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? No. Therefore, the motion is agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

As the motion has been agreed, I’m pleased to announce that the Presiding Officer will hold the first ballot on 25 January 2017. The Table Office will contact Members with details of how to enter that ballot.

6. 6. Debate by Individual Members under Standing Order 11.21(iv): Precision Agriculture

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Item 6 is the debate by individual Members under Standing Order 11.21 on precision agriculture. I call on Lee Waters to move the motion—Lee.

Lee Waters (Labour, Llanelli)

Diolch, Ddirprwy Lywydd. I must confess that the looks on many of my colleagues’ faces when it was announced that we were having a debate on the application of big data in agriculture could be best described as puzzled, but I can assure the Assembly that this is not the result of some esoteric whimsy on behalf of the sponsors. The practical implications of big data in farming are huge. Precision agriculture is about innovation, productivity, software and skills. This is not some obscure tech project; this goes to the heart of some of the most pressing challenges we face, like austerity, food security and climate change.

We are generating, capturing, storing and processing data at speeds never before witnessed. Eric Schmidt, the former CEO of Google, once claimed that every two days we now generate the same quantity of information that was created between the dawn of time and the year 2003—every two days. The total amount of data being captured and stored by industry globally is doubling every 14 to 15 months. We’re approaching the point where we’ll be able to code nearly everything we do. The challenge for our and future generations is to exploit the power of big data to improve our lives—to harness the algorithm.

Lee Waters (Labour, Llanelli)

Precision agriculture is at the vanguard of this data revolution. It’s a rapidly developing area where information is being applied to food production and land cultivation to dramatically improve productivity and reduce harm to the environment. In arable farming, for example, this approach enables farmers to gather a wealth of real-time information: water and nitrogen levels, air quality, disease—data that isn’t just specific to each farm or to each acre, but to each square inch of our farmland. Using this information, algorithms can tell the farmer exactly what each square inch of land needs and when and, with pinpoint precision, produce the maximum possible yield.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Will the Member give way?

Lee Waters (Labour, Llanelli)

Indeed.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

I thank very much Lee Waters for introducing this debate and securing this debate and also for giving way here. But, would he agree as well, in his opening remarks, that this is also an issue of social justice? Precision agriculture and all it entails can confuse people, but it’s actually been identified as part of the solution of how to feed that estimated growing population—to 9.1 billion by 2050. It’s not the be-all and end-all, but it’s one of the tools we have to feed that growing population.

Lee Waters (Labour, Llanelli)

I completely agree that it is has multiple benefits, both in terms of food production but also in reducing environmental harm, which also helps some of the poorest in the world by mitigating the impacts of climate change.

Now, not only do these precisely applied algorithms mean that less stuff is going in, at a reduced cost to both our farmers and, with fewer harmful chemicals, the environment, but more stuff is coming out, precisely as Huw Irranca-Davies just intimated. Research has shown that precision agriculture could increase crop yields by as much as 67 per cent. At a time of spiralling global food and water insecurity, figures like these matter. In New Zealand, farmers have developed a way of taking micro-measurements of vast swathes of farmland to identify how much grass is in the paddock so that dairy cows can be distributed most effectively for feeding. It alerts farmers to the amount of feed they have and identifies low-production areas that need intervention—for example, more fertiliser. By feeding their animals more efficiently, kiwi farmers have helped increase exports to China by 470 per cent in one year—a clear economic payback for knowing the precise location and concentration of grass in a field: the application of precision agriculture.

There are pockets of innovation across Wales, in our further and higher education institutions. I recently met with the principal of Coleg Sir Gâr in Llanelli, Barry Liles, who told me about how one of their campuses is already reaping the benefits. At their farm in Gelli Aur, near Llandeilo, in the Carmarthen East constituency, they’ve enjoyed significant efficiencies in milk production, maximising the use of grass and minimising the input of expensive feed. They use satellite imagery to measure field sizes and allocate grazing allowances to their herds. Grass-growth data are measured weekly by plate meters, recorded on a smartphone app and synchronised to a web recording programme. They’re also trialling satellite navigation in experiments with precision fertiliser application. In Aberystwyth University, the Institute of Biological, Environmental and Rural Sciences have been involved in cutting-edge developments in forage grasses. Now, it may sound a little remote, until the practical ramifications of this research become clear. These grasses have demonstrated exciting promise in flood mitigation, something that has been on our minds a lot this week.

We haven’t begun to scratch the surface of the potential of precision agriculture for Wales. I spoke last week about the public workshop I held in Llanelli recently, designed to help develop a jobs blueprint for my constituency, and the overwhelming consensus was that we need greater ambition for the area if we are to withstand coming economic storms. And that’s not just true of my constituency, it’s true across Wales. And precision agriculture presents us with a prime opportunity to demonstrate this ambition.

One of the industries that will likely bear the brunt of Brexit is our food production and manufacturing sector. The removal of the common agricultural policy and the likely imposition of food export tariffs will hit our farmers hard, and we need to prepare for this and to find new, imaginative, innovative means to drive growth in this critical sector—a sector that quite literally puts food on our tables. The market disruption prompted by what is commonly called ‘the fourth industrial revolution’ offers us also an opportunity to do just that: to reimagine the Welsh food economy, to establish Wales as the UK’s western furnace of innovation and industry, all whilst strengthening our resilience to some of the biggest global challenges we face.

We should, we need, to be all over big data like a rash. The cross-party motion before the Assembly today calls on the Welsh Government to develop a strategy that will put Wales at the forefront of the development of precision agriculture. I would urge Ministers and Members to invest energy and enthusiasm to do just that. Thank you.

Joyce Watson (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

I’d like to call Andrew R.T. Davies.

Andrew RT Davies (Conservative, South Wales Central)

Thank you, acting Presiding Officer. It’s a pleasure to take part in this debate, albeit a little sooner than I thought I was going to be taking part in the debate. I do declare an interest, being a farmer, and just in case I do stray into areas that people might think conflict with my interests, I do put that on the record.

On our farm, in the Vale of Glamorgan, we make great use of satellite imagery and controls of pesticides and fertilisers; nearly all the tractors we use are satellite guided, so when you’re putting the fertiliser out, a certain part of the field, for example, will have a greater dose of fertiliser than the other part of the field, because the imagery is showing that that piece of ground is more fertile than the other. Twenty or 25 years ago, you’d just go into a 10, 15, 20-acre field and you would put a uniform rate across that field, not really knowing whether you were having the impact that you required. And, obviously, there’s the leeching effect that that nitrate and other components of that fertiliser has on the environment. So, there’s an economic benefit back to the business but there is also an environmental benefit back to the business.

We debate much in this Chamber, and very often some of them are the same old problems that we are debating within this Chamber, but by debating this debate today, which as the mover of the motion highlighted—at first you think, ‘What a quirky debate. What are they talking about here?’—actually we can have a huge impact in this area because the land mass of Wales is predominantly agricultural. We have such a varied agricultural industry. We have the arable areas around the coastal regions, we have the livestock sector, and I see the Member for Brecon and Radnorshire is here, which has one of the highest densities of livestock farms anywhere within the United Kingdom. We also have a growing renewables sector making use of our land area, and also the management of flood prevention and environmental gains that can be had. So, really, when you look at the mix of agriculture and the use of agricultural land in Wales, considering the size of Wales, we have a huge spread of opportunity to actually push the boundaries of this new technology, and patent and develop that technology here in Wales.

It was quite appropriate—the intervention that was made by the Member for Ogmore—to point out that we are living in a world with huge population growth, and yet the challenges to the natural resources of this planet have never been as great. You have vast areas of the globe that are turning arid because of water problems and are the source of conflict in many areas. You have the western democracy, shall we say, or the western economies, that historically have provided huge quantities of food through their support of the agricultural industry, but the productivity of the agricultural industry, especially in crop production in particular, really hasn’t moved for the last 20, 25 years. If you look at wheat production, for example, because the genetics of the wheat season have been brought forward, they have not really kept up with the potential and the demand that we need to create to sustain a viable food production base for the ever-growing population of the world.

The motion before us today does put the gauntlet down, in a friendly way, to the Welsh Government, and to our higher education and further education institutions, and the industry itself, to rise to the challenge and the opportunity that actually is there to develop these new growth areas. It’s not just in the production of crops. In livestock production, in particular, big data can make a huge improvement in the profitability and efficiency of the livestock sector, from the genetics that have proven to deliver better livestock animals back to the farm gate, to also the assessment of the meat that comes from those animals when they are processed in the processing plant. In New Zealand, for example, much of the grading work that is undertaken on the carcases of the animals is undertaken electronically now, rather than by the human eye, thus reducing the disparity, shall we say, that very often does happen when the human eye is relied on and the demand that the abattoir might have to what the producer needs, thus providing a consistent level of return back to the primary producer to have the confidence to invest in that livestock sector.

So, this is a really exciting area and we have pockets of real innovation going on in our HE and FE sectors across Wales—Gelli Aur has been talked about; Aberystwyth is another beacon of excellence that we can look at—but we do need to have, as the motion calls for, a plan from the Welsh Government as to how it’s going to harness this research and development moneys, along with the facilities that exist within the research sector in Wales—. I have a limit on my time, but I’ll happily take the intervention.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

My apologies, I don’t intend to intervene too much. But would he agree as well that one of the exciting opportunities of this, with the exponential growth in big data, is actually what we could do on the environmental aspect, because the endless rounds of inspection, inspection, inspection and monitoring, monitoring in the traditional form could be, to some extent, done away with by the accuracy of the big data monitoring of what is actually happening on the ground?

Andrew RT Davies (Conservative, South Wales Central)

There is huge scope for that, and as someone, obviously, who has been regularly inspected, having been in farming for 25 years, I see the pros and cons of that because the landscape is a moving feast, and the rigidity very often of a snapshot from a Google image or something that inspectors are relying on does cause some problems very often. But there is scope to improve that aspect of it as well.

I do welcome the motion before us. I believe we could have filled a lot more time looking at this particular aspect, because I do think that it’s a genuine area that Government can make a big difference in, the industry can make a big difference in, and our research and business sectors can also deliver for what promises to be an exciting and dynamic century in the world of food production and, indeed, the availability of new technology.

Jenny Rathbone (Labour, Cardiff Central)

It’s very interesting to hear the explanation of Andrew R.T. Davies about the work he’s doing in this area. As Huw Irranca-Davies and Andrew have pointed out, it is a way of maximising yield without the use of chemicals, and intelligently harnessing the power of nature. According to the Food and Agriculture Organization of the United Nations, food production must increase by 60 per cent to be able to feed the world’s growing population. Big data is a powerful, evidence-based tool for long-term sustainable development by improving the economic opportunities for farmers, as well as the health of consumers.

We saw what happened in Zimbabwe, where critical levels of crop failure in 2013 put over 2 million people at risk of chronic malnutrition. Big data can help prevent those sorts of things from happening, both by foreseeing the weather conditions that produce that crop failure, but also mitigating and producing alternative ways of dealing with the problem. I’ve spoken many times about the horticulture trade deficit we have in the UK, and particularly in Wales, and this is one of the ways in which we could very efficiently become self-sufficient in horticulture, as well as using it as an export market.

I just want to focus on two countries that somewhat dominate the horticulture market, and have used big data very effectively. One of them is Chile, which is at the very southern end of South America. Its horticulture region is concentrated in the province of Valparaíso, from where more than two thirds of the country’s horticultural production is exported. Chile accounts for 50 per cent of the fruit exported from the southern hemisphere, and it is a relatively small country in terms of land mass. If you compare that with 1990, when their share was only 25 per cent, it’s now the No. 1 exporter of fruit in the southern hemisphere. So, there’s been an absolutely massive transformation of that industry. Worldwide, agriculture accounts for around 70 per cent of all fresh water use, but around 60 per cent, I understand, of this is wasted. So, by using big data to manage water effectively—. It was shown in Chile that by using irrigation researchers, they slashed their water use by 70 per cent in blueberry farming by using a network of wireless sensors. This is Chile’s third-largest fruit export, so, obviously, with massive savings like this, and two thirds of the world’s water extraction now being consumed by agriculture, smart water management systems won’t just be in demand, they’ll be absolutely essential.

The second country is much closer to home, in Holland, the Netherlands. It’s one of the world’s largest exporter of horticultural projects, and at some times of the year it’s supplying nearly all the fruit and vegetables for most of Europe. Holland has 44 per cent of the worldwide trade in flowers, but also, through the use of hydroponic greenhouses, accounts for 50 per cent of the value of all fruit and vegetables produced in Holland. They have used big data to boost their productivity and safeguard their crops from unpredictable climate. The use of these hydroponic greenhouses has massively increased their food production. They’ve used data to analyse and balance their soils, and made effective use of natural fertilisers, so that they’ve refined their farming techniques through a green revolution, rather than adding more and more commercial artificial fertilisers. It makes plants less vulnerable to soil degradation and unpredictable weather by using these very large greenhouses, which you can see if you fly over anywhere in Holland. It means that horticulturists have more control over the conditions, which allows them to drive efficiency, reduce waste and expand production beyond the natural seasons. These hydroponic greenhouses really do offer precision horticulture, which I feel we really ought to be able to replicate here in Britain.

So, I think this is a very important area that we need to be looking at, and I think that, having talked to the farming unions, their members are very open to new ideas, because they absolutely understand that change is on the way, inevitably, as a result of Brexit, and this is a really important and useful moment to give farmers the tools they need to diversify and to give them a guaranteed income.

Joyce Watson (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

I’d like now to call Neil Hamilton.

Neil Hamilton (UKIP, Mid and West Wales)

Thank you, acting Presiding Officer. What an interesting debate this has been, and I’d like to congratulate Lee Waters on adding this intellectual veneer to our proceedings. It shows what a credit he is to our old school, and I’m sure Adam Price will agree on this what a great contribution it is making to the proceedings. Of course, my own contributions tend to cater for the rougher end of the oratorical market, but I’m very pleased to take part in this rather more high-level discussion.

I have to admit I knew little about this topic until I researched it after the motion was put down on the order paper. But it is absolutely a very worthwhile thing for us to debate, because it’s yet another refutation, I think, of the Malthusian fallacy and shows that the limits to human ingenuity cannot be foreseen. And, as a result of the massive increase in population that we’ve had in our lifetimes, and the population increases that are in prospect, we will need to make massive increases in food production, and almost everybody who’s taken part in this debate so far recognises what a massive contribution big data can make to alleviating problems of poverty and hunger in the world, and I’m sure we all accept that.

And, certainly, as the western world focuses less and less upon labour-intensive production, the use of technology is becoming even more important. It was very interesting to hear a practical farmer’s account, from Andrew R.T. Davies, of how this has affected his business over the course of the last 25 years. I think it’s very encouraging for us all that an industry that has, in the past, been regarded as somewhat old-fashioned, is, at the very lowest level of individual operation, now being able to take advantage of these techniques, which few of us, I think, would be able to explain how they operate to anybody else. It’s very easy to see the effects; it’s very difficult to understand the science and technology that goes to back them up.

But, it is interesting that it is transforming our lives in so many different ways. I was very interested to hear what Jenny Rathbone had to say also about the way in which these techniques are being used in Holland, and some very interesting facts that she gave us about the proportion of the world trade in flowers and vegetables and so on that small countries are responsible for, which gives us, I think, great hope for thinking that, as the decades unfold, countries that are currently enveloped in the most desperate poverty will be able to improve the lives of their citizens in ever-growing numbers. So, it’s a spirit of optimism, most of all, that I think will emerge from this debate this afternoon.

What is interesting is how affordable this technology is also, when you consider the costs of capital-intensive production in years gone by and how impossible it was for small businesses to afford similar techniques that are transformative in their effect. Small businesses—and farmers are the ultimate small businessmen in this country, and particularly in Wales—are able to take advantage of these new techniques in order to improve their businesses and make them more productive. So, I’m very pleased to make a contribution to this debate, even though I can add nothing by way of knowledge to what has been discussed, but once again to say how important it is that the Assembly should, from time to time, have these consensual debates so that we don’t always have to engage in knockabout and beat each other up in the Chamber. Once again, I’d like to express my gratitude to Lee Waters for adding so much to the quality of what we do.

Joyce Watson (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

I’d like to call Simon Thomas.

Simon Thomas (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

Thank you very much, Deputy Presiding Officer—

DPO dros dro neu beth bynnag ydych chi ar hyn y bryd—

Simon Thomas (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

Chair, yes, whatever. Thank you. I am very pleased to have an opportunity to speak in this debate and spare Lee Waters too much embarrassment for being praised too much by Neil Hamilton, I am sure. So, I thank him myself and add to that. I think what’s important in this debate is that we realise that this is already happening and agriculture is a mix of heritage, art and a lot of science and technology and industry. The industry bit is already driving this. As Andrew R.T. Davies said, most farmers will have GPS of some sort on their tractors already and will be able to do some sort of modelling like this.

What we really are calling for in this debate is for the Welsh Government and for all of us to be at the forefront of this technology. In looking at how all this started I came across the first use of a unmanned aerial vehicle, which we’d now call a drone, to survey farmland in the United Kingdom, which was back in 2008. It was a joint research project between QinetiQ, which is Aberporth for those who know it, and Aberystwyth University, looking and surveying whether fertiliser applications were needed regarding the nitrogen levels of soil, and that was being done from the air. So, we’ve been there from the start here in Wales with the technology, the higher education institutions and the farmers working hand in hand, and now is the opportunity to move on for this next part.

I think those of us who did study history rather than agriculture nevertheless will remember ‘Turnip’ Townshend, the reasonably well-known, hopefully, instigator of the first agricultural revolution that we had in the United Kingdom. He introduced the Norfolk crop rotation system, which then fed the industrial revolution. Without ‘Turnip’ Townshend we would not have had the industrial revolution because we simply couldn’t have fed the growing populations of our cities that then led on from that.

We are seeing that now back in Wales. This is what I like about this: this is the combination of the old and the new together. Members of the Climate Change, Environment and Rural Affairs Committee who visited Bryn Gido farm near Llanarth in Ceredigion will remember the young farmer there, Anwen, who was looking at how she could improve her pasture for sheep. She was planting swedes, not turnips, but swedes for the sheep. Simply by planting the swedes, knowing the soil condition and knowing the grass growth, and in liaison with Aberystwyth, with the Institute of Biological, Environmental and Rural Sciences, knowing what grass to plant, when to plant it, how to plant it, and grass following swede in different fields, simply by doing that, the reduction in her cake costs had been enormous. From going through a very precarious existence she was in a much more sustainable one. That’s a traditional sheep farm, which you would not think when you look at a debate that says it is about big data and precision agriculture. You don’t think that’s about sheep farming, but it is precisely about sheep farming. And, in the same way as reflecting what Andrew R.T. Davies said about New Zealand, she was looking at the breed of sheep and the breeding of sheep and doing that then scientifically as well. That’s something you can do in one farmhouse on a hill in Ceredigion and it’s something that can be done throughout Wales now as we improve our farm data.

It’s already been said how big data can assist us in this with weather, soil and air quality, crop maturity, equipment, labour costs, and all the savings and the investment that can result from that. But the real thing that I think I want to emphasise at this stage of the debate is that we do need something to be put in place in order for small farmers in particular to access that. What I don’t want to see happening within big data and precision agriculture is a similar situation that arose with GM. We’re not going down the GM route today, but GM started as a big corporate kind of process that told farmers how to farm and said you could only use certain fertilisers, you could only use certain pesticides, and it drove from a top-down approach that simply led to rebellion and unhappiness amongst farmers and then, of course, in consumers as well who didn’t think that that was the kind of food that they wanted to see. So, in order to avoid that, we have to involve farmers themselves in the planning of big data and that’s the point that I think Welsh Government can lead on.

So, for example, if we’re going to have big data, they have to be stored. If they have to be stored, then access to those data and how the data are used—the moveable feast of the landscape, as Andrew R.T. Davies referred to it, I think—. Farmers have to be confident that those data are going to be used in a productive, useful way, not to penalise them, but in a way that helps them, together with their neighbours, to grow their farm businesses. So, who owns those data is important, as are how you liaise with HE institutions about the use of the data and whether the supercomputers that are being developed in our HE institutions now can be utilised for this purpose as well. I think that’s going to be an essential aspect.

The other one, to turn to a more mundane but very important point, is that 13 per cent of our farmers in Wales today don’t have reliable access to the internet, and 60 per cent only have connection speeds of 2 Mbps. You can’t do big data—you can’t put up a drone—with an internet connection like that. You can’t maintain your information, share it and learn from each other with those sorts of access. So, big data have to go in hand with good high-speed internet access and mobile access in many farms as well.

I think there’s huge potential for green skills—the growth of green skills—in the Welsh economy. Only 27 per cent of farmers do have formal training, but for the new generation coming in, of course, it’s nearly 100 per cent. This is a farming tradition in Wales that is keen to learn and keen to use their skills, and this is a real example of where Wales can lead the way.

Joyce Watson (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

I’d like to call Rhun ap Iorwerth.