Senedd Cymru (Welsh Parliament), 14 December 2016

317 contributions from 40 members. The official report.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

I call the National Assembly to order.

1. 1. Questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Environment and Rural Affairs

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The first item this afternoon is questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Environment and Rural Affairs, and the first question, Dawn Bowden.

Dawn Bowden (Labour, Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney)

1. What is the Welsh Government doing to support local energy generation projects? OAQ(5)0082(ERA)

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Thank you. The Welsh Government has an established history of support in this area, which is currently continuing under the local energy service. As a result of our support, nine local energy schemes have been constructed. This includes Friends of Taff Bargoed in the Merthyr valley and four more currently being constructed.

Dawn Bowden (Labour, Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney)

Excellent. Thank you very much, Cabinet Secretary for your response. And I’m aware that you did, in fact, visit Taff Bargoed at the end of October—the hydropower scheme there. And that Taff Bargoed is the latest phase of a project that’s transformed that site of three disused coalmines in the heart of a Valleys community and which has seen the launch of the income-generating hydro scheme. I’m sure you’ll agree with me, Cabinet Secretary, that the park is a fine example of the kind of transformation of an industrial site into a leisure and recreation centre, which has become both a haven for wildlife and a centre for community activities, and the latest initiative is a natural and positive progression. But, as part of the Welsh Government’s strategy on delivering clean energy, notwithstanding what you’ve just said about the four schemes that are in the pipeline, can I ask you how we can encourage even more communities to generate their own energy and learn from the excellent example of projects such as Taff Bargoed?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Thank you. The Taff Bargoed scheme is a really excellent example of local people coming together, making the most of opportunities that exist within their community, and our vision is to see far more communities and businesses using locally generated renewable energy, and earning an income in the process—I think that’s another thing to think about. I mentioned in my initial answer that we do support communities through the process of a local energy service. That provides development officer support, it provides funding, and it also provides access to specialist advice groups. So, one of the key benefits of community groups working with the local energy service is the access to capital funding the service offers. And we know from experience that groups can often struggle to raise funds for such schemes, so I think it’s really important that we continue to make sure that that funding is available here in Wales.

Russell George (Conservative, Montgomeryshire)

Will the Cabinet Secretary confirm the status and weight to be given to policies in local development plans when her officials determine the acceptability of any local generation scheme, which, by virtue of its expected output, is now classed as a development of national significance?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

I’ll have to write to the Member with a note on that.

Mark Reckless (UKIP, South Wales East)

The Climate Change, Environment and Rural Affairs Committee recently visited a community hydroelectric project in north Wales, and I followed up with Ofgem on the issue raised, that the costs of connection to the grid, where there isn’t sufficient capacity in the area already, have to generally be borne by the developer, whereas the approach taken in Scotland for large-scale renewables there was for the upgrade of the grid to be paid for by electricity users across the UK. Does the Cabinet Secretary believe the approach currently is fair to Wales or not?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

This is something I’m having to look at. We need to make sure that there is enough capacity on the national grid. The First Minister met recently with the National Grid to discuss this, and it’s something, as I say, that we will be looking at going forward.

Hannah Blythyn (Labour, Delyn)

2. How is the Welsh Government working with local authorities to improve flood protection? OAQ(5)0080(ERA)

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

We work with local authorities identifying communities at risk and building resilience through better forecasting, awareness raising and funding priority schemes. Twenty-three million pounds of this year’s £54 million programme is allocated directly to local authorities. We also collaborate on the coastal risk management programme, increasing our resilience to climate change.

Hannah Blythyn (Labour, Delyn)

Thank you. The Welsh Government has continued to invest in flood and coastal risk management, spending over £50 million in this financial year on reducing risks and maintaining existing assets. This continued investment is welcome and is vital to ensuring that family homes and businesses are protected from flooding. Over a decade ago, the town of Mold in my constituency was devastated by flooding when the river Alyn burst its banks, and the area remains a flood risk today. A Mold flood alleviation scheme has been under construction for many years, but, to date, no agreement has been reached. Minister, can you assure my constituents that plans are still on track to implement the scheme, and that work between Flintshire County Council and the Welsh Government will continue on this matter?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Thank you. I know my officials are still in discussions with Flintshire County Council, and I know that the local authority itself is reassessing and reviewing the cost. Because I think, over 10 years, obviously, the costs from the original prediction have increased significantly. So, I understand the local authority are working with a local consultant to review the modelling work and asset information.

Llyr Gruffydd (Plaid Cymru, North Wales)

The reality is, of course, that the budget for flood prevention has been cut. Now, given that there is additional capital funding to come to Wales in light of the autumn statement, will you make the strongest case possible for ensuring that that source is restored?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

I have made the strongest case possible to the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Local Government, and you will find out next week if it’s been successful or not.

Nick Ramsay (Conservative, Monmouth)

Cabinet Secretary, given that, as Llyr Gruffydd said, resources are tight, and flood prevention protection schemes are, in terms of capital, very expensive, and revenue as well, do you think now would be a good time, with the agenda moving on to greater local authority collaboration, and pan-local authority developments, such as the south Wales metro, and city regions, to look at regionalising flood protection, rather than just leaving it with individual local authorities, to get them to work together more closely and to develop more cost-effective and sustainable schemes?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

I suppose it’s important that local authorities work together if a flood scheme crosses borders of local authorities. I’m not sure that regionalisation would be particularly beneficial. However, we’re always encouraging local authorities to work much more collaboratively together, so, as I say, if they felt that it would be worthwhile, I’ve no objection to that at all.

Michelle Brown (UKIP, North Wales)

Will the Minister make a statement on actions the Welsh Government is taking to support the Traveller community, please?

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

That’s the incorrect question. Huw Irranca-Davies.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

As the Cabinet Secretary will know, many of my constituents, not least those in Maesteg, were recently affected by the flash flooding. As we approach Christmas, many of them are out of their homes, with relatives, with family, their belongings have been taken away in skips, and their houses are drying out. Some of them could be out for some time.

Can I ask the Cabinet Secretary for advice for one such constituent, caught in a dire predicament? Their home flooded thanks to the flash flooding running down the hillside and through theirs and other properties—nothing to do with river flooding, nothing to do with coastal inundation. Yet, their insurer has called their claim invalid, after their sodden belongings were taken away to the skip, because they failed to identify, when signing the policy, that their house was within 200m of a river. This was an oversight, and I wonder how many people are now caught out by this 200m rule, which now seems common to many policies. There aren’t, frankly, many places in my constituency, which are river valleys, that are not within 200m of some river or other. So, what advice could she give to my constituent, and would she raise this matter in future discussions with the British Insurance Brokers’ Association and with the Association of British Insurers? A catch-all clause of living within 200m of a river is a heck of a cop-out for the British insurance industry.

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Yes, it’s very concerning to hear of your constituents’ experience with that. And it’s very good that you’ve raised it here in the Chamber. I’d be very happy to write straight away to the British insurance brokers, raising that issue, and, obviously, I will share that information with you when I receive it.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Questions now from party spokespeople to the Cabinet Secretary. The Welsh Conservatives’ spokesperson, Paul Davies.

Paul Davies (Conservative, Preseli Pembrokeshire)

Diolch, Lywydd. Cabinet Secretary, this lunchtime, I co-sponsored a National Farmers Union briefing session, with Angela Burns, on the Welsh Government’s proposals for nitrate vulnerable zones. There are some very, very serious concerns regarding the consultation proposals, which could impose huge burdens on farmers and, as a result, force many out of business. Given the First Minister’s comments that it’s up to the Welsh Government now to decide which laws should be retained and which shouldn’t be retained following the UK’s decision to leave the European Union, could you explain why the Welsh Government has proceeded with this consultation to introduce nitrate vulnerable zones, which is as a result of a European directive?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Because we’re still in the European Union.

Paul Davies (Conservative, Preseli Pembrokeshire)

Well, I need to say to the Cabinet Secretary that she has an opportunity here to look at these proposals once again given that we are now leaving the European Union. I appreciate that we need to maintain the quality of our natural environment and, for that reason, it is worrying, incidentally, that a regulatory impact assessment hasn’t been provided alongside the consultation document, because surely a regulatory impact assessment is crucial to demonstrate how these proposals will result in an improvement to our water quality and to our natural environment. Can you, therefore, explain to us why a regulatory impact assessment has not been issued alongside the Welsh Government’s proposals?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

I go back to your first question: implementation of the nitrates directive is a European obligation, and whilst we still are part of the EEC, and we’re going to be still part of the EEC for at least the next two and a half years, we are committed to comply with these obligations. I have to say that minimum standards were introduced for the storage of slurry over 25 years ago—25 years ago—and the assessments we’ve done show that around 65 per cent of farms do not meet these standards. My message has been to farmers, when they’ve raised this with me, is that for those already meeting existing storage standards, the cost of compliance with NVZ requirements would be minimal. To me, that’s rewarding good practice, and I think that’s really important. As I say, we’re out to consultation and there will be an RIA published in due course.

Paul Davies (Conservative, Preseli Pembrokeshire)

Well, it is disappointing that an RIA hasn’t been published alongside the consultation document, and is it not the case that a regulatory impact assessment hasn’t been issued because there is simply not enough scientific evidence to support the Welsh Government’s plans? Not only is there not enough scientific evidence, but these proposals will actually cripple farmers across Wales and have a significant effect on the wider rural economy. And it seems to me that these proposals are simply a sledgehammer to actually crack a nut and, no doubt, the findings of the consultation will actually echo these concerns. So, in the circumstances, can you tell us why the Welsh Government has not adopted a voluntary approach on this matter, and, following the consultation, will you now take on board the views of farmers and, indeed, the agricultural industry and consider working with them by adopting voluntary measures instead?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

I don’t agree with the question that you asked me. I don’t want to pre-empt the consultation. I’m very happy to work with the industry. I mentioned in my previous answer to you how long these standards have been there, what our assessments have shown and that, for those already meeting existing storage standards, the requirement would be minimal. And I think that is really important and it’s really important that we recognise and reward good behaviour.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Simon Thomas.

Simon Thomas (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

Diolch, Lywydd. Minister, I want to talk about another European directive, but I just want to put on record that I’ve written to you asking you to adopt the voluntary approach on the NVZ directive as well. But what assessments have you made of the High Court ruling last month that DEFRA’s air quality plan under the air quality directive did not, in fact, comply?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Officials are looking very much at the court case that was undertaken and, obviously, came down against the UK Government. I haven’t got that information to hand at the moment, but I’m very happy to share it when I do have it.

Simon Thomas (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

Well, thank you, Minister. I think it is a very important court case and it’s one that might be against DEFRA but it’s actually a UK reporting responsibility under the air quality directive. So, it does affect us, and it overtook or ran concurrently with your own consultation on air quality, which closed on 6 December. In that consultation on air quality you said this:

‘There is considerable uncertainty about the extent to which we will still be bound by our current EU obligations—

though your response to Paul Davies sounds like you are bound by your current EU obligations—

relating to air and noise pollution following the UK’s withdrawal from the European Union. Therefore, we are not yet in a position to state precisely what further action we propose to take forward in the second, third, fourth and fifth years of this Assembly.’

Can I put it to you, Minister, that having had an estimate from the British Lung Foundation that air pollution in Wales is linked to over 1,300 early deaths—that’s the Welsh figure; we’ve heard UK figures before; that’s the Welsh figure—can you really be so laissez-faire in your response to tackling air pollution?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

No, I am not laissez-faire at all, and it’s because of my concerns that so soon after I came into post I launched the consultation. We do have both European and national legislative frameworks in place in Wales. It does concern me greatly. We certainly have hotspots, if hotspots is the right word, of really poor air quality, which concerns me. You mentioned the consultation that closed on 6 December. Officials have already started analysing the responses, and I’ll be able to bring forward, obviously, more information when that’s complete.

Simon Thomas (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

Well, I hope that more information also includes your response to the High Court judgment, and also I hope that you can take into account the fast-moving public policy in this area. Five of the cities that I think you actually joined with in a regional network following Marrakech have signed up to the proposal of banning diesel transport from the cities. Often, diesel cars are seen as a particular problem, though in fact it’s diesel lorries and transport that creates most of the pollution. Jeremy Corbyn has suggested banning all fossil fuel cars; it might not be his most—. [Interruption.] All cars, in fact; yes, possibly. It might not be his most ridiculous suggestion, actually, because Copenhagen has already suggested that in 10 years. Paris is looking at it. Cars are banned on alternate days in many cities throughout the world. But, of course, the answer is not to attack private cars; the answer is to move to an electricity infrastructure. And the answer is to use the tools that we have here already in Wales—the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015, the Active Travel (Wales) Act 2013 and the Environment (Wales) Act 2016 to achieve those policy proposals. So, in response to what other cities are doing, how can Wales step up and really achieve that transition away from personal fossil fuel-driven transportation to that of electric vehicles and much more sustainable integrated public transport?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

You’re absolutely right. The C40—the group of cities that you’re referring to—I met with several of the mayors when I was in Marrakech at COP22, and it was really interesting to hear about their plans to end the use of diesel cars, for instance, by 2025. Other countries are looking to do it also by 2030, 2035, and we have to keep pace, otherwise we’re going to look like dinosaurs. So, it’s really important that we do that. I’m having discussions with my colleague Ken Skates, Cabinet Secretary for Economy and Infrastructure, around sustainable transport. I think we need to set some targets, and I mentioned last week in the energy statement that we have to have a realistic target, but I’m very happy to look at that. I’m also very happy if any cities—. I suppose Cardiff, I think, have made some comments around Cardiff looking to do that also, so I’m very happy to have those discussions, but we really do need to ensure that we do keep at the fore of these announcements.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

UKIP spokesperson, Neil Hamilton.

Neil Hamilton (UKIP, Mid and West Wales)

Diolch, Lywydd. I think farmers and, indeed, small businesses in general will be very disappointed by the intransigent response that the environment secretary gave to Paul Davies’s question earlier on. The National Farmers Union has done a survey of farmers and the impact that the introduction of nitrate vulnerable zones would have upon them and their industry, and they found that 73 per cent of slurry-producing farmers in Wales currently don’t have storage facilities sufficient to meet the requirements of the NVZ proposals, and that the average cost of complying with them would be nearly £80,000. In a world where farm incomes are not only low but plummeting—farm incomes have dropped 25 per cent in the last year—an insensitive approach to this problem is simply going to mean that large numbers of farmers, particularly in the dairy industry, are going to go out of business. I certainly don’t think that that is a price worth paying for the short-term gains that the environment secretary is consulting about.

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Well, I don’t think that one word you could apply to me is ‘insensitive’, and I’m certainly not insensitive to this. My officials did meet with representatives of the NFU early in October, and they had a very constructive meeting. I’ve also met with the NFU on several occasions, the last being a week last Thursday, I think. Obviously, they are concerned and they raised those concerns with me. Without consultation—I’m not going to pre-empt that consultation, and I go back to my answer to Paul Davies around those who are already meeting those existing storage standards, for whom the cost of compliance would be minimal.

Neil Hamilton (UKIP, Mid and West Wales)

Well, the facts, of course, belie that, and the NFU I think are pretty reliable consultees on this particular issues. But there are other solutions to the problem of nitrate pollution, and they’ve been applied in England. ADAS has produced a booklet that is entitled, ‘101 ways to reduce nitrates’. In fact, in Wales, nitrate fertiliser consumption has gone down by 43 per cent between 1990 and 2013, so it’s not as though nothing is happening out in the real world. And, in fact, in the Cleddau area in Pembrokeshire, where there was a creamery that had to reduce its nitrate waste by 8 tonnes, local farmers formed together as a co-operative—25 of them—and they each reduced their own nitrate waste by a tonne. So, they actually reduced the amount of nitrate waste in that area by 25 tonnes altogether. Now, that’s without the kind of sledgehammer approach of the regime that the environment Secretary is currently consulting on. So, I wonder if I can get to—without pre-empting, obviously, the outcome of the consultation—an open-minded commitment for her to look at things in the round and to consider, nonetheless, the possibility of a voluntary regime if the

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

I’m always open-minded when I go into a consultation, but I go back to what I said, that 65 per cent of our farms do not meet those standards—standards that have been there for 25 years. But, of course, the flip is that 35 per cent do reach those standards. So, maybe we should make sure that the best practice is shared from that 35 per cent of farms to that 65 per cent, but I’m absolutely open-minded.

Neil Hamilton (UKIP, Mid and West Wales)

Good. Well, I’m delighted to hear that. We’re making progress, but, you know—

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

So patronising.

Neil Hamilton (UKIP, Mid and West Wales)

Well, we are making progress. I mean that as a compliment. Well, I have to say that in her answers to me previously, Llywydd, all I’ve had are some monosyllabic replies on the issue of regulatory impact assessments, for example, which is part of the Government’s own code of conduct. They promised to have regulatory impact assessments as part of consultations such as this, and it isn’t there, and I think for the reason that Paul Davies alluded to.

Given that we are going to leave the EU within the next two or three years, by the time this consultation is concluded and by the time regulations are in a position to be imposed, there may be only a matter of months left anyway. Surely, in circumstances such as this, where we so have the opportunity to tailor-make regulations that suit Wales as a separate entity, as opposed to a regime that covers an entire continent, it must make sense to have a moratorium upon measures of this kind, which can have a devastating impact on business for marginal improvements in environment quality, given that there are other ways of solving the problem.

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

I’m sure the Member would love to leave the EU far quicker than we’re going to, but we are still in the EU. While we’re in the EU, we need to live within our obligations to the EU. So, I’m afraid I don’t agree with you on that point. Going forward, after we leave the EU, that’s a completely different kettle of fish, if you like. We need to make sure, then, we have those specific policies right for Wales. But at the moment, we are still in the EU.

Angela Burns (Conservative, Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire)

3. Will you provide an update on the guidance the Welsh Government has issued to planning authorities on slurry lagoons? OAQ(5)0078(ERA)

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Thank you. ‘Planning Policy Wales’ is clear the planning system should promote good environmental practice that includes minimising the risks of pollution. Guidance on slurry lagoons is available from Welsh Government as part of implementing the Water Resources (Control of Pollution) (Silage, Slurry and Agricultural Fuel Oil) (Wales) Regulations 2010.

Angela Burns (Conservative, Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire)

Thank you for that answer. I listened very carefully to what you had to say to other Members around the Chamber, because, already, farmers are struggling to get permission for slurry lagoons. You talk about the 65 per cent who don’t comply—I would ask you, Minister, how many of those farm holdings have struggled to get planning permission and have faced incredibly fierce opposition from locals who do not want to have a slurry lagoon on their doorstep? That is the reality, and the question I would like to pose to you is: we have the potential of the NVZs coming through, what discussions have you had with your Cabinet colleagues as to how you can change the planning system, which has a negative bias built into it, and what can you do to overcome the costs involved and the objection of local residents so that farmers can go ahead and put lagoons in where appropriate and where they’re not going to be damaged by any potential NVZ? Because I would like to remind you, with the greatest respect, Cabinet Secretary, that farmers are very good stewards of our land and they do face an enormous uphill struggle, particularly against planning authorities.

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

With respect, I don’t have to have any discussions with my Cabinet Secretary colleagues because I’m responsible for planning, too. So, I’m able to restructure planning policy, particularly in light of the goals of the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015. I think it’s really important that we have that strategic and long-term commitment within the planning system to promote sustainable development—that includes minimising pollution.

You’re absolutely right, the majority of farmers absolutely look after their land. The one thing that has struck me in my many discussions over the past few months with farmers is the pride they take in that land management and that they are so much more than food producers, for instance. The stewardship of land is something that I absolutely don’t think is recognised by the public in the way it should be. I have had several discussions with farmers when I’ve visited them, and I always ask to see their slurry lagoon—I think I’m getting a bit of a reputation—because it is such an important aspect of life for them. I know that some of them have had difficulties with planning, I can’t tell you how many or how specific it is to local objections, but it is important that our planning policy assists them where they want to do that.

Simon Thomas (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

Well, the task is becoming more difficult because, from what I understand, the Pembrokeshire cabinet has opposed the NVZ, and this morning, Carmarthenshire County Council also voted against the NVZ. But, of course, the purpose of a slurry lagoon is to keep slurry until it is used in a meaningful way or is spread or used in that way. So, what discussions are you having with contractors, who are an important part of this jigsaw, given that they are responsible for transporting slurry from lagoons and redistributing the wealth, if you like, across an area? They will be severely impacted by the fact that they will have to lay off their workforce over the winter if the NVZ is introduced, and it will be more perhaps difficult to get contractors to work in a scientific way as possible, as happens now. Is there any discussion with contractors around this use of slurry and the NVZs?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

I haven’t personally had any, but I know my officials have. We’ve worked with the Construction Industry Research and Information Association also. It is a very important point that you raise about the capacity of the lagoons, as to how much can be used at any one time. I think that was part of the early engagement, prior to going out to consultation.

David Lloyd (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

4. What assessment has the Minister made of the energy potential of tidal lagoons? OAQ(5)0084(ERA)

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Diolch. As part of the development for the first national marine plan for Wales, various assessments have been undertaken. These have identified the potential of renewable energy opportunities along the Welsh coastline of more than 6 GW.

David Lloyd (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

Thank you for that response, Cabinet Secretary. You will be aware, of course, of all the discussions that have been ongoing now over a long period of time on the possible development of a tidal lagoon in Swansea bay. What local people want to know is when the Swansea tidal lagoon will be built.

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Well, we are awaiting, obviously, a decision by the UK Government. I know that there are many conversations going on between the company, along with Natural Resources Wales. I have met with the company to show that, in principle, we are absolutely committed to supporting the development of a sustainable tidal lagoon industry here in Wales.

Andrew RT Davies (Conservative, South Wales Central)

Cabinet Secretary, in your response on tidal lagoons you highlighted how they could play an important part in delivering green energy and part of the renewables mixed basket of opportunity that you as a Government will be promoting. But also in that basket of mixed energy opportunities is the ability for smaller land-based renewable projects. The real issue is about getting connection to the grid for many of those projects. I know I’ve asked you this question before, but are you making progress with the energy providers, such as Western Power—or the infrastructure providers, should I say—to allow them to assist so that small energy projects can get those connections, and assist in the green energy credentials of Wales?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Yes, certainly those conversations are ongoing and we are making progress.

Caroline Jones (UKIP, South Wales West)

Cabinet Secretary, the proposed tidal lagoon for Swansea will be the first such scheme in the world and, as such, is unproven technology. The developers claim the scheme will deliver 320 MW of installed capacity, but we have no way of knowing how much electricity will be actually generated. As we have seen from the Ramsey sound tidal scheme, things don’t always go to plan. Cabinet Secretary, what steps can the Welsh Government take to ensure that the tidal lagoons plan for Wales deliver the stated benefits, given the significant public investment that is required?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

As I said in my earlier answer to Dai Lloyd, we’re awaiting, obviously, the UK Government’s decision on this. I have met with them to show that, in principle, we are committed to supporting tidal lagoons here in Wales. Certainly, from the discussions I’ve had, you’re right: it is a novel technology, so we need to know more about it. But I absolutely think Wales and the UK could become leaders in this field and I think we would gain significant economic benefit.

John Griffiths (Labour, Newport East)

When Charles Hendry held an event here on the tidal lagoon, Cabinet Secretary, it was clear that there’s a very strong consensus of support across the political parties and, indeed, in Wales in general. Now that Charles Hendry has submitted his report last week, I think, to UK Government, will you continue to make Welsh Government support apparent to UK Government and also emphasise the consensus that exists in Wales and in the Assembly?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Yes, absolutely. We had hoped that the Hendry report would be submitted to the UK Government a little while before last week. We were hoping, certainly, the beginning of November. I’m very pleased that they’ve now got it. We look forward to their view of the report. I have requested, alongside my colleague Ken Skates, that we are fully engaged in discussions prior to any other announcements being made.

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

5. How is the Welsh Government monitoring noise air quality management in Wales? OAQ(5)0068(ERA)

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Thank you. We are tackling noise and air pollution in a number of ways. These include through local air quality management, industry regulation, the planning regime and the promotion of active travel. We are currently reviewing the responses to the public consultation seeking views on what more we can do in Wales.

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

Thank you. You referred to the local air quality and noise management consultation. How do you respond to concerns raised with me that the questions in that suggest that the assessment of air quality be done on the basis of averaging any impacts and benefits across the whole population of Wales, rather than focusing on the most vulnerable, and disregarding the critical weighting that should be given to hyperlocal specifics that might detect and report excess pollution suffered particularly by children, older people or disabled people? There’s also the fact that there’s no mention in the preamble to the document to guidance or consultation from the Wales health impact assessment support unit.

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

I haven’t heard any complaints about the questions or the way that the consultation was put together. If you’ve received one or more, I’d be very interested to have a note from you so I can look at it. A great deal of thought went into that consultation document, and I think the questions we’ve asked are absolutely appropriate.

Jenny Rathbone (Labour, Cardiff Central)

One of the hotspots for air pollution is in Cardiff, so I’m very keen to find out exactly what monitoring the Welsh Government is doing of the levels of air quality in the Cardiff urban area. How confident are you that you will manage to satisfy Mr Justice Garnham by the end of April that you are able to take measures to deal with the illegal levels of air pollution that we are suffering?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Across Cardiff, there are some localised areas where air pollution is problematic, I think mainly as a result of road traffic emissions. At these locations, we have air quality management areas that have been declared as such by the local authority. It’s their duty to tackle local air quality. I’ve been assured that their action plans will all be in place shortly in accordance with statutory guidance.

I think addressing air pollution really requires a collaborative approach. We are currently, as I said, reviewing the responses to the public consultation, and I’m hoping, the results of that consultation, I’m going to feed to local authorities, because as I say, it is their responsibility to make sure that they fulfil all their requirements.

John Griffiths (Labour, Newport East)

Cabinet Secretary, you’ve mentioned road traffic emissions and it’s clear that they play a very significant part in terms of air pollution and the impact on human health. Diesel emissions are particularly significant. Would you agree with me that—? Hopefully, we’ll get to electric vehicles as quickly as possible, but before we do that, there are other practical steps that may be taken to address these issues, such as the conversion of taxi fleets from diesel to liquefied petroleum gas. The industry tells me that can be achieved with, perhaps, some grant support and they could repay that grant within a period of something like two years.

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Absolutely. I think Birmingham are looking to electrify their taxi fleet, so it will be very interesting to see what they do. In relation to electric vehicles, I’m very keen to see us move to more electric vehicles, but, of course, a stumbling block or a barrier is the lack of recharging points. So, I’m looking to see if I can, perhaps, find some small amount of money so that I could help incentivise local authorities to install them, even if it’s only just one, just to start the ball rolling. Some local authorities do have them, obviously. People have them at home. But I think it is a barrier for people purchasing an electric vehicle, because there are no charging points and, of course, there are no charging points because there aren’t enough electric vehicles, so it’s a vicious circle that I am very keen to break.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Question 6 [OAQ(5)0070(ERA)] was withdrawn.

Question 7, John Griffiths.

John Griffiths (Labour, Newport East)

7. Will the Minister make a statement on Welsh Government policy to improve the environment in the inner urban areas of Newport? OAQ(5)0079(ERA)

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Thank you. Our policy is to deliver programmes that bring together local people, groups, businesses and organisations to deliver services to improve where they live or work. This includes our eco-schools programme, which has 20 schools in inner Newport, empowering and inspiring young people to make positive environmental changes to their lives.

John Griffiths (Labour, Newport East)

I thank the Cabinet Secretary for that answer. Cabinet Secretary, we’ve had recent good news in terms of the quality of the Wales coast path and the advantages it brings to Wales. It was always envisaged that the coast path would be connected to urban areas through circular routes. I wonder if you could tell the Assembly what progress has been made in terms of those hopes and plans and whether you could support the establishment of those routes in Newport and elsewhere.

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Thank you. We absolutely recognise the importance of access opportunities for communities in order to promote better health and well-being. I think the Wales coastal path has not just been a hit with tourists; it’s absolutely been a hit with local communities and people right across Wales. We provide funding to NRW to maintain and improve the path, and there is a detailed work programme agreed with local authorities to develop links between local communities such as urban areas and the coast. I would hope that Newport City Council would be able to identify some routes and then secure support from NRW to improve and develop them.

Mohammad Asghar (Conservative, South Wales East)

Minister, fly-tipping is becoming an increasing problem in parts of Newport. A community group called Pride in Pill has taken action by holding regular litter picks as part of its campaign to improve the local environment for residents. Will the Cabinet Secretary join me in congratulating Pride in Pill on its community spirit? What more can the Welsh Government do to assist local authorities to tackle fly-tipping, which blights many of our inner urban areas in south-east Wales?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Thank you. I thought the Member was going to invite me to join him on a litter pick, which I would be very happy to do, and I have undertaken several over the past few months. [Laughter.] But I absolutely congratulate the group. It’s been so good to see communities coming together and taking such pride. I went along to a litter pick in an area of Cardiff a couple of months ago, and it was good to see residents coming up and thanking the volunteers for making their community so much better. In reply to your question about what more we can do on fly-tipping, I think it’s really important that local authorities enforce fines in relation to fly-tipping. I recently met with Phil Bale, the leader of City of Cardiff Council, because they’ve got a particular issue about one black bin bag of rubbish being dumped, which perhaps people don’t recognise as fly-tipping, but it absolutely is—just because it’s one bag. So, we’re looking to see what fines can be imposed in relation to that also.

David Melding (Conservative, South Wales Central)

8. What are the implications for the Welsh Government following the C40 Mayors Summit in which Paris, Athens, Madrid and Mexico City committed to diesel free status by 2025? OAQ(5)0076(ERA)

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Thank you. The mayors’ commitment to ban diesel vehicles from these four cities by 2025 is one response to the growing public awareness of the health effects of air pollution. We are currently reviewing our air quality policies, following our consultation on the subject, which closed on 6 December.

David Melding (Conservative, South Wales Central)

It’s quite clear the message here is that urban areas, to be really attractive for the local population, but also inward investment and their economic health, require clean air—the best quality possible. There are ways that we can manage that now, even before we formally ban diesel cars. It’s really important that, in Wales, we see the leadership we could be giving for the whole of the UK, and that will bring very great benefits to us economically as well.

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

I’m not sure, David, if you were in the Chamber when Simon Thomas raised a similar issue around this, and I was saying that, you know, you’re absolutely right. We’ve got this group of mayors—and I met several of them when I was at Conference of the Parties 22—who are being really ambitious with their targets for ending the use of diesel cars by 2025. I was saying in my previous response that I think it’s really important that Wales stays at the fore. We’ve always been ahead of these things, and we need to be looking to make sure that we’re not being left behind.

Gareth Bennett (UKIP, South Wales Central)

It’s interesting that the environmental push is now there to reduce the use of diesel cars because it seems to be only a few years ago that we were actually being encouraged to use diesel by many of the same people. So, I wonder if the Minister would agree that this is one example of an area where the received wisdom in the environmental field, within a few years, turns out to be completely wrong.

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Well, I think it’s called science and moving on and learning. I absolutely would like to set a target to get rid of fossil fuel cars by a certain date, but to do that you have to make sure that we have, for instance, the metro, where we’ve got that sustainable transport in place for the public to use. But, absolutely, the way forward is to get rid of diesel cars and fossil fuel cars.

Adam Price (Plaid Cymru, Carmarthen East and Dinefwr)

9. What assessment has the Minister made of the consequences of the oil pipeline breach at Nantycaws? OAQ(5)0077(ERA)

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Diolch. An assessment of the oil spill at Nantycaws is currently being carried out by Natural Resources Wales. This will investigate the causes of the breach, its impacts and any action for Natural Resources Wales under its powers as regulator. Until this investigation is concluded, I cannot comment further.

Adam Price (Plaid Cymru, Carmarthen East and Dinefwr)

I attended a public meeting locally last week, and I have to say there was some disquiet among local residents in light of the absence of the Valero company, but also because of a lack of information provided by public authorities. So, can I ask the Cabinet Secretary to insist that NRW does publish the results of all the tests that they have conducted on the rivers and the ground? They should have done so by now. What monitoring work will go on in future? Could she also put pressure on the Food Standards Agency to provide the necessary information to local farmers on any possible contamination of the land and the food chain? Would it be possible to confirm what enforcement steps NRW is taking in order to ensure that all the remediation work that the company has promised, and has been requested by local people, will actually be conducted as soon as possible?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Thank you. I’ve been informed that the investigation by NRW isn’t going to be completed until the end of March, which is obviously quite a significant time away. So, I’m very happy to ask NRW to publish what they can before that time. I know that you are meeting NRW on Friday, so I’ll make sure that I do that ahead of time. I’m very concerned to hear of the public meeting last week and the disquiet amongst your constituents. Again, I will speak to NRW around that. Also, yes, I’m very happy to, and will write to the Food Standards Agency to ensure that any necessary information that the farmers need around the area of the spill, that they do get that information ASAP.

Angela Burns (Conservative, Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire)

Cabinet Secretary, this was an industrial accident, it was unforeseen, it was unintended, and I also look forward to the report. I would like to commend both Valero and NRW for the very speedy way in which they dealt with this. I would like us all to reserve judgment. Valero are a very strong company in my constituency who do have an environmental record that is worth noting is extremely good. What I’m very interested to know, Cabinet Secretary, is what lessons might be learned for what else may be happening in that pipeline as it proceeds through Wales. Are there any other ways that we might be able to monitor that pipeline to ensure that the oil spill that Adam Price refers to doesn’t actually happen elsewhere?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Yes, when I attended the site of the spill—I think that was on Saturday 8 October—I met with Valero and NRW, and I was very pleased to see the way that they were working together. But, you’re quite right; at that time, the cause of the spill had not been identified, but it is really important—it's a very long pipe—it's really important that that's monitored in a way that absolutely we learn all the lessons we can to avoid that sort of spill again.

Steffan Lewis (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

10. Will the Minister make a statement on steps taken by the Welsh Government to protect wild animals in circuses? OAQ(5)0073(ERA)

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Thank you. I will be publishing a written statement on this issue tomorrow. We will explore the possibility of introducing a scheme, such as registration or licensing, for mobile animal exhibits, including circuses, which display domestic and exotic animals in Wales. A public consultation will be undertaken here early next year.

Steffan Lewis (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

I very much welcome that answer from the Cabinet Secretary and thank her for it. I wonder if she could give an indication, therefore, of the timescale in terms of implementing and introducing any new regulations and legislation, as this has been an issue that has been ongoing for some time already.

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

It has been a long-standing issue, and it's something that I have taken a particular interest in since I came into post in May. I recently met with the DEFRA Minister, because I wanted to engage in discussions with them to see if we could have a joint sort of scheme and initiatives going forward. He was very keen to also speak to Scotland and Northern Ireland to see if we could have a UK-wide approach. However, it needs to be done at pace, and, if it isn't going to be done at pace, we will have our own scheme, as I say, and look at what else we can do. But I agree: it does need to be done very quickly. As I say, a written statement will be coming out tomorrow, before we go into recess, with more details.

Russell George (Conservative, Montgomeryshire)

I'm grateful; I don't think there's any place for wild animals in circuses. I agree with that. This is something promoted by the Welsh Conservatives some years ago, and I'm pleased that there will be a statement tomorrow. But can I say: how has it taken so long to get to this point? It was your predecessor, Rebecca Evans, who first initiated this, and it has taken a long time to get to this position.

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Well, as I say, it's something that I have taken a particular interest in, you know, six months—well, seven months—into post. I've had several discussions. I've now met with the DEFRA Minister. We've been waiting to see—. We don't have any circuses actually licensed here in Wales; they’re licensed in England. So, I think it's very important that we do have that cross-Government approach to this.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

I thank the Cabinet Secretary.

2. 2. Questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Communities and Children

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The next item is questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Communities and Children, and the first question—Andrew R.T. Davies.

Andrew RT Davies (Conservative, South Wales Central)

1. Will the Minister make a statement on the Welsh Government’s report ‘Understanding the Economics of the Park Home Industry’? OAQ(5)0090(CC)

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I thank the Member for his question. The study is the most comprehensive ever carried out on the sector in Wales. It covers almost 74 per cent of all park home sites, as well as stakeholders. It contains four key recommendations, which I’m currently considering in terms of the implementation.

Andrew RT Davies (Conservative, South Wales Central)

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary, for that answer. You are quite right to identify the Welsh Government put in significant resource—I think in the region of £50,000—into this report, and there were key recommendations, which I'd be pleased to hear how you’re going to be taking those recommendations forward. But I met with some residents from park homes last week who made the point that one of their key concerns about the commission when they sell park homes—and the restrictions on the sale of those park homes back to the owners is a very burdensome and cumbersome process, and very restrictive as well. The report didn't offer a way forward to resolving that particular concern that park home owners had. Are you minded to explore further opportunities to see if some assistance can be brought to raise this issue and actually lift this burden that is placed on park home owners that is so restrictive when they decide to sell their park homes at the end of their tenure?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I think many Members have made representations to me and previous Ministers on this issue. Indeed, Kirsty Williams last week had a conversation with me about a group in her constituency. I am aware of the issue around the 10 per cent levy, commission rate, on this, and I am giving this further consideration in the round of the whole report, based on the outcomes of my discussions with my team, and I will make a further statement on this.

Lynne Neagle (Labour, Torfaen)

2. Will the Minister make a statement on how the Welsh Government is tackling child poverty in Torfaen? OAQ(5)0091(CC)

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I thank the Member for her question. We are supporting parents into employment through Communities for Work, investing in the early years and building resilient communities that can offer children the best start in life.

Lynne Neagle (Labour, Torfaen)

The Communities First programme is playing a crucial role in Torfaen in tackling poverty. The programme has been very successful and was ranked No. 1 in Wales for helping people into employment, and No. 1 for adults completing employment-related courses. This is in addition to the vital role Communities First plays in mitigating the impact of welfare reforms. In the event of the Cabinet Secretary going ahead with the phasing out of Communities First, what steps will you take to ensure that the very best elements of the programme are retained and, most importantly, properly resourced?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

The Member is right to raise the issue of Communities First, as many others do in this Chamber. I have said often that there are many good programmes within the Communities First clusters, but the reality is, as we discussed yesterday in the debate around child poverty, the very stubborn effects of poverty are very hard to move into a different space. We have to take a very new approach to the way that we manage and support resilient communities. I’m grateful for the Member’s comments. I haven’t made a decision yet on Communities First, but I will keep her and other colleagues posted as I make those deliberations in the early new year.

Mohammad Asghar (Conservative, South Wales East)

Cabinet Secretary, I have no doubt that you’re doing a wonderful job on various things to reduce poverty. You have taken a lot of—[Interruption.] Wait a minute. You have taken a lot of—. [Interruption.] You have taken a lot of, your Government has taken a lot of, initiatives to reduce poverty among children—yes, we had Communities First, Flying Start, Families First, et cetera, et cetera. But the fact is—[Interruption.] The fact is we are still, sadly—our children in Torfaen, Islwyn and Blaenau Gwent are the worst-off children living in the countries of the United Kingdom. I would like to ask you what other initiatives you’re taking. I think our Government is raising the personal allowance up to £12,500, which will benefit a lot of families—[Interruption.]—a number of families, 1.5 million, to reduce in-work poverty, which is one of the aims of the child poverty strategy by the British Government. So, which initiative are you going to take to reduce child poverty in Wales, please?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I thank the Member for his comments at the start of his question; we’re very grateful for them. It’s not for me to give the Member a history lesson, but I will remind him that poverty just doesn’t happen by chance—there are often causes to this. Back in the 1980s, when his party was in power in the UK, they destroyed our communities in Wales with the coal mines and the steelworkers, which had a massive effect on our young people and their lives ahead of them.

I can say what are our programmes, and the Member recognises them—Families First, Flying Start and the whole support mechanisms around the family are important ones. But you should not take anything back from the fact that your welfare-reform aspects have a massive impact on the people of Wales and the UK. You, as a party, should think about that very, very carefully.

David Rowlands (UKIP, South Wales East)

Cabinet Secretary, UKIP concurs with the Welsh Government’s decision to review or end the Communities First programme. This was a Government flagship strategy designed to eradicate deprivation in Wales. Whilst there are some examples of success, there are also glaring examples of mismanagement. For instance, the 3Gs Development Trust programme in Merthyr spent £1.3 million on staff salaries out of a budget of £1.5 million. Would the Cabinet Secretary confirm that the people of Penydarren, Galon Uchaf and Gurnos were let down by this organisation?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

Look, I won’t knock Communities First’s workforce—they are doing a fantastic job across communities—but this is an extremely difficult nut to crack. Poverty is not moving in the right direction. That’s why we have to have an overarching rethink here. Huw Lewis and Dawn Boden, now, are doing a fantastic job in their communities, representing their communities with Communities First workforces. I will make a decision in the new year about what the future looks like, but what we’ve got to remember about this is it’s about the people on the ground.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Questions now from the party spokespeople. The UKIP spokesperson, Michelle Brown.

Michelle Brown (UKIP, North Wales)

Thank you, Presiding Officer. What assistance is the Welsh Government offering to owner-occupier families at risk of being evicted from their home by their mortgage company for mortgage arrears?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

We have pathways through local authorities where there are opportunities to speak with anti-homelessness officers in authorities across Wales. We have a very good recognition in a 63 per cent reduction in homelessness figures in Wales.

Michelle Brown (UKIP, North Wales)

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. Last November, the national sleeping rough count estimated that 240 people across Wales were sleeping rough during one week in November 2015. Granted, it’s an estimate, but many people will find themselves on the streets this Christmas, often through no fault of their own. What is the Welsh Government doing to address this problem and help rough sleepers escape their horrendous situation?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I agree with the Member in that nobody should be homeless at any point, particularly at Christmas. It’s a terrible place to be considering. But we are investing in homelessness provision through organisations like Llamau. We invest in our communities—in local authorities—but there are still people who present as homeless and we are doing our damnedest to make provision to support these people who find themselves in this position.

Michelle Brown (UKIP, North Wales)

Thank you. I know that the Cabinet Secretary is as concerned as I am about the welfare of our forces veterans. Has the Cabinet Secretary instructed local authorities to prioritise the housing of homeless veterans? If not, does the Cabinet Secretary intend to do so?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

We introduced last week a new housing pathway for veterans, which was created and designed with veterans in that process. I launched that in Lesley Griffiths’s constituency in Wrexham, and it’s a very popular one. I was with armed forces personnel only last week, with the general in Wales, and he was very complimentary about the efforts we’re making here to support the armed forces, including the armed forces advisory group and the cross-party group that Darren Millar chairs in the Chamber.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Bethan Jenkins.

Bethan Sayed (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

Cabinet Secretary, you may know that I’ve met with quite a few asylum-seeker families recently in Swansea with regard to the awful conditions that many of them are facing with regard to Home Office provision via the company Clearsprings Ready Homes. I was wondering whether you would be able to facilitate a conversation with the Home Office on these terrible conditions, notwithstanding the fact that many private landlords in Wales have contacted me saying that they do lease their homes to the Home Office for Clearsprings to utilise to house asylum seekers. So, while it may not be a direct decision for you to make as housing Minister here, the inevitable consequences are that we have responsibilities in this area, and I would like you to make representations to show the severity of the situation now here in Wales.

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I’m supportive of the Member’s question. I think the Member should write to me in detail on that. I think she’s right to raise that, while this is a non-devolved function, we do pick up the consequences of vulnerability. I think that’s something I’m very interested in trying to resolve with the Member.

Bethan Sayed (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

Just following on from that, I wonder whether you would be willing, as Cabinet Secretary, to meet with some of the asylum seekers and refugees in the area so that they can tell you directly what those concerns are, because many of them feel that they’re not listened to. There are myths, of course, about the fact that they are taking homes from people from Wales. That is not the case entirely—they’re not on any list that any other person here in Wales would be on with regard to social housing. They find it very, very difficult to make complaints, and have said to me that they have faced racism from Clearsprings staff when they have been making updates to their homes. So, would you be willing to do that, Cabinet Secretary, so that you can hear for yourself those problems first hand?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

Certainly, if I am able to meet with them, I will do. If not, I will certainly provide a member of staff to support your support in meeting them.

Bethan Sayed (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

Thank you very much. On a different matter entirely, I know that you will be aware that we’ve had some extremely cold weather recently, but, of course, it’s been a bit milder—not that I’m a weatherwoman all of a sudden. There was—[Interruption.] Oh, it’s the last day of term.

On a serious level, there were news reports recently of a man freezing to death in Birmingham, and now my office has learned that one local authority in south-east Wales has not provided any emergency accommodation for rough sleepers in its direct area. Although the severe weather emergency protocol isn’t compulsory for local authorities here, your Government’s code of practice does state that all councils should have a written cold weather plan that includes their arrangements to help rough sleepers during periods of cold and severe weather.

We’ve looked into, as an office, more of the plans across Wales. Some local authorities have good plans, but others told us there were still discussions ongoing now about what those plans should be. Do you think it’s acceptable that some local authorities still haven’t had those discussions with partners? What will you be doing to make sure that all of those local authorities have plans in place so that we don’t face situations where people are dying on our streets this winter?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I will look at that in more detail—I’ll speak to my Cabinet colleagues as well. I think this is a moral issue—the politics aside of any local authority, actually we’re talking about human beings here. Anybody who finds themselves in a homeless position—it would be terrifying, and there for the grace of God go I, sometimes. The fact is we should make sure we look after people humanely. I will look at the detail that the Member presents, and I’ll ask Cabinet colleagues to look at that in their own portfolios as well.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The Welsh Conservatives’ spokesperson, Mark Isherwood.

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

Diolch, Lywydd. The Bevan Foundation’s July 2016 ‘Equality and Social Justice Briefing’ on poverty said that the latest figures from the Department for Work and Pensions’s households below average income survey showed that low household incomes continue to be a significant problem in Wales, with more than one in five people living on a household income below 60 per cent of the median, and children being at the greatest risk of poverty, although the largest group of people on low incomes being adults of working age. And they added that the longer-term and more recent trends in poverty have had little impact on Wales’s position compared to other UK nations and regions, with Wales continuing to have one of the highest rates of poverty in the UK for all age groups. Why is that, Cabinet Secretary?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

That’s why we’re introducing 100,000 apprenticeships for all ages. That’s why we’re continuing with Communities for Work. That’s why we’re continuing with the Lift programme. That’s why we want to engage with our communities to build better, stronger communities. I was very clear about my sense of direction yesterday. I would welcome the Member’s comments in terms of embracing the opportunities that we have here in Wales, with this very stubborn effect of poverty. We have to work together. Governments can’t fix poverty. We have to have a collective about this, about how we do this, and that’s why the WFG Act is an important one, where all our public sector partners have a part to play in this.

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

So, you’re not going to tell us why that is. May I suggest that you and your colleagues have been running economic development and employability programmes in Wales since 1999, and that is the situation now? Your department, I believe, is responsible for the Lift programme, as part of your tackling poverty action plan, providing training and employment opportunities for people in households where no-one is in work. And I believe you’re also responsible for the Communities for Work programme, focusing on the most deprived communities, which clearly fall within your portfolio. And you’re also extending both programmes from 2018 to 2020. What due diligence have you carried out? I understand the Welsh Government has been unable or unwilling to release data on the outcome from those programmes, and it’s understood that, by contrast, the UK Government Work Programme providers in Wales have been able to achieve five to 10 times better value for money, delivering the average cost of a job at £3,000, whereas it’s understood that the jobs under your schemes are running into possibly tens of thousands of pounds.

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

Two points. First of all, I’m very grateful to the Member for suggesting a response to my question earlier on. But may I remind him that it was his Government that was in power in the eighties that absolutely devastated Wales, with the highest rate of unemployment ever in the UK? And his mate on the front bench there, in UKIP, was part of the Government at the time as well, so he can’t shake his head either. The second point of the issue around Communities for Work and the Lift programme is one that is an important one. I haven’t dodged the fact that we won’t release figures; I’m more than happy to look at them in the new year and furnish the Assembly with those details. This is about getting people at the hardest end to reach back into the workplace—not an easy cohort of people to deal with, but we have success and we should celebrate success. Stop knocking Wales.

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

I’m reliably informed that people have been unable to obtain the proper data despite asking for it, so it would be welcome if you could deliver it. And don’t tell me about the 1980s. I know what it’s like for your father to come home and tell you that the manufacturing company he works for has shut and that he’s become unemployed. That happened in 1978 because of the economic meltdown created under Labour. [Interruption.] Yes it did, and I lived that life, so don’t you lecture me.

Finally, the situation in Wales on the latest figures is that we have higher economic inactivity rates than England, Scotland or UK levels. We have the second highest percentage of people in work living below the living wage. We have the highest levels of underemployment in the UK, according to the latest figures from the Carnegie UK Trust. We have the highest percentage of employees not on permanent contracts, and the second highest proportion of employees on zero-hours contracts, again after 17 and a half years of Labour Government in Wales. Why is that, Cabinet Secretary?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I’m very grateful for the Member’s very aggressive tone that he has brought to the questioning. I also remember the times through the 1980s when the Member worked in the local building society, taking the redundancy cheques from the steelworkers that were made redundant by the UK Government at that very time—a very difficult time, and a community that was broken at that time. So, again, in lecturing about what happened in our communities, you can ask many Members on these benches what happened to their communities under the Conservative administration.

Can I say that rebuilding communities, as I said earlier on, doesn’t go on a switch? You have to work at this, and we’ve been working very hard. And places like Flintshire, which was devastated with the highest redundancy notice ever served in Europe in one day by the UK Government, have now been transformed to have one of the lowest unemployment levels. And that’s not by chance—that’s by a Labour authority, with a Labour administration here. So, I don’t take any lectures from the Member opposite; he wants to take a reality check.

Rhianon Passmore (Labour, Islwyn)

3. Will the Minister make a statement on the Welsh Government’s plans to deliver affordable new homes in Islwyn? OAQ(5)0086(CC)

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I thank the Member for Islwyn for her question. We are committed to increasing the number of affordable homes across Wales. We continue to invest in social rented housing and Help to Buy, and are developing innovative new schemes, in order to meet our ambitious target of 20,000 homes.

Rhianon Passmore (Labour, Islwyn)

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. Earlier this month, you announced that the Welsh Government will invest an additional £30 million this year towards providing 20,000 affordable new homes. The Welsh Government’s affordable housing target of 10,000 additional affordable homes in the last Assembly was exceeded, with the housing supply pact between Welsh Government and Community Housing Cymru playing an important role in meeting that target. What actions can that partnership take to deliver our new ambitious targets, and how will the people of Islwyn directly benefit from this?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

Of course, I’m grateful to the Member for reminding the Chamber of the success of the last term of Government. I’m very pleased to have entered, only in the last two weeks, into a new housing pact with Community Housing Cymru and the WLGA for this term of Government. It is an ambitious target of 20,000 homes, but my good friend and colleague the Cabinet Secretary for finance is helping us by announcing an additional £30 million this month to start on the build with the big 20,000 homes project, which your constituents will directly benefit from.

Mohammad Asghar (Conservative, South Wales East)

Cabinet Secretary, Caerphilly council has recently granted planning permission for a development of 175 homes on derelict land at Hawtin Park industrial estate, near Blackwood. Guidelines for the development include the provision that 25 per cent should be affordable housing. Will the Cabinet Secretary join me in welcoming this increase in the supply of affordable homes in Islwyn, and what measures does he intend to take to make more derelict land available for housing in Wales?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

Well, Ken Skates and I—I’m not familiar with the project the Member raises, but I’m always keen to make sure that we have a contribution of affordable homes across the length and breadth of Wales. Ken Skates and I are working on a land opportunity fund, where we can see how we can develop not only Welsh Government land, but also public sector land, and release that into the opportunity for home building in the future.

Angela Burns (Conservative, Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire)

4. Will the Minister outline the support the Welsh Government has provided to charities supporting families? OAQ(5)0083(CC)

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

Good afternoon. Thank you for the question. The Welsh Government directly and indirectly supports a number of organisations providing support to families. Within my portfolio, the children and families delivery grant, Families First and Flying Start give support to third sector groups that aim to meet the priorities of supporting well-being, reducing poverty and, indeed, tackling adverse childhood experiences.

Angela Burns (Conservative, Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire)

Thank you for that answer. But, Cabinet Secretary, could you explain why the Welsh Government have seen fit to reduce funding for the Family Fund charity from £2,508,950 in 2015-16 to a figure of £1.9 million for the next three years? That is in comparison to the Scottish, Northern Irish and Westminster Governments, who have all decided to retain the same level of funding they had previously. This seems to run slightly counter to your previous answers this afternoon, which indicate that your view is that the economic situation in Wales is improving.

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I’m very grateful for the Member’s question. I would point out to the Deputy Presiding Officer that the Family Fund budget rests within my colleague’s budget line, but will ask her to write to you. Rebecca Evans is the Minister who deals with this particular issue.

Simon Thomas (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

Can I draw your attention, Minister, to the work of the Penparcau Community Forum? Penparcau used to be a Communities First area; it’s the community I live in. It lost the Communities First status at the previous reiteration and review of Communities First, but, if anything, has been even more successful post Communities First than previously, because it’s been able to do a lot more working with other partners, in a way that’s freed them up, if you like. They’re very keen that you look at the work that they’ve done, because they believe that they point the way ahead for post Communities First, which you are considering in the new year. We had a very successful meeting about 18 months ago—your predecessor came and met with the community forum in Penparcau together with the Presiding Officer and myself. Since then, they’ve moved on; they’ve got a new community facility, which will be opening in the summer. They warmly welcome you to that opening around that time and hope that you can accept an invitation at that stage, but in particular, they want to talk to you about how, post Communities First, they can work at a community level with families with a high level of child poverty to really address the issues of the community. I hope you’ll take the opportunity to meet with them and learn about them.

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I’m very grateful for the invitation and look forward to receiving that formally. I am familiar with Penparcau; indeed, I welcomed their tweet when they tweeted about the fact that there is potential life after Communities First. I think we have to have ambition about opportunities—[Inaudible.]—and that we learn from organisations like them. I’ve spoken to the previous Minister about this very organisation and I’d be happy to come and visit and speak with them about the success that they’ve been able to achieve.

Michelle Brown (UKIP, North Wales)

5. Will the Minister make a statement on actions the Welsh Government is taking to support the traveller community? OAQ(5)0088(CC)

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I thank the Member for her question. The Welsh Government has worked to improve outcomes for Gypsies and Travellers through the ‘Travelling to a Better Future’ framework for action and delivery plan. There has been real progress since 2014 and an update to the plan was published in March this year.

Michelle Brown (UKIP, North Wales)

Thank you for that answer, Cabinet Secretary. What measures are the Welsh Government taking to foster liaison and communication between Travellers and local settled communities that they move into?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

We have cohesion co-ordinators to work with Gypsy and Traveller groups and I meet with representatives of the community regularly.

John Griffiths (Labour, Newport East)

In terms of the outreach effort, Cabinet Secretary, I know that it’s important to address the issues that Gypsy/Traveller families have in the round, including better educational attainment and better school attendance. I know that that effort involves not just work in the schools, but also within the community and the whole-family approach. In terms of the whole-family approach and outreach, will you look at Welsh Government resource and support for that aspect of this work, please?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

Yes, we provide funding for the Save the Children’s Travelling Ahead project through the equality and inclusion grant to support awareness of rights and participation amongst young Gypsies and Travellers. You’re right: the family approach is an important one. Gypsy and Traveller families are probably one of the most disadvantaged families and have the shortest lifespan out of most of the strands in terms of equality. It’s something that we should consider very carefully about our intervention. I met with a spokesperson only last week, who talked about their failure to report hate crimes against them, because they fear that nothing gets done. We should be looking at that very carefully as well. So, I’ve asked my team to engage further with them. But the Member raises a very important question about how we engage and the whole-family approach.

Russell George (Conservative, Montgomeryshire)

I have an interest as a member of Powys County Council. Members of Machynlleth Town Council have expressed their concerns regarding proposals by Powys County Council to locate a permanent Traveller site near Machynlleth. Town councillors agree that there hasn’t been a formal consultation, as they had been promised by the county council, with residents regarding possible locations for the site. I have made my own representations to the local authority and I would be grateful if you would add your weight to the calls for Powys County Council to hold a full and proper and transparent consultation to ensure that residents have the opportunity to express their suggestions about location and ideas themselves.

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I’d be surprised if the authority haven’t engaged with their local communities, but I’ll take the Member’s word for that. It’s something that I would expect them to do in a transparent way. Sometimes when people don’t like the outcomes of decisions, there’s always a conspiracy behind it, but what we have to think about here is the process. There is a principle of operating under the well-being of future generations Act that is about involvement and consultation and I would expect Powys to be involved in that.

But we also have to recognise that, often, particularly around Gypsy and Traveller sites, they are very difficult places to find in communities because many people will say, ‘We just don’t want them’, for the wrong reasons. Actually, we have to have a grown-up conversation here about where we site people on a long-term basis. Again, I’ll go back to a previous question, presented by Bethan Jenkins: these are human beings we’re talking about. Actually, sticking them under a bypass is not appropriate. We have to make sure we’ve got proper provision for Roma families that wish to live in these places.

Caroline Jones (UKIP, South Wales West)

6. What is the Welsh Government’s policy on youth justice? OAQ(5)0084(CC)

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

We believe that children and young people who are in the youth justice system should be treated as children first and offenders second. This is reflected in our joint strategy with the Youth Justice Board for England and Wales.

Caroline Jones (UKIP, South Wales West)

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. However, it was disappointing to read that a prison within my region has over 60 per cent of its 15 to 18-year-olds entering the prison with a drug-related issue. It was also highlighted that many of these teenagers will have spent time in the care system, truanted from school, or suffered with learning difficulties and/or mental health issues. With these indictors of vulnerability already highlighted, why is it that they were not supported sufficiently prior to entering prison, and have we already failed these teenagers once and, when they’re released from prison, unless we take action, they will be returned to the same environment and more likely to reoffend yet again? Cabinet Secretary, what systems do you have in place to support vulnerable young people to prevent them in the first place from entering the youth justice system, and what support has the Government, the Welsh Government, put in place to support young people leaving the prison in order to prevent the reoffending?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

Well, there are two aspects to this. One is the prison side of things, which is a non-devolved function, but the fact is, for me, nothing hurts me more than to see young people incarcerated. It’s a failure of the system that we have. We must get beyond—. We must operate our services before we get into that space. That’s why we’re investing in the advanced case-management programme with the youth justice board. We’ve had some great success, where we’ve had four pilots running across Wales. Twenty of the most prolific reoffenders among young people have been stopped from reoffending because we’ve treated the symptoms of adverse childhood experiences. So, we’ve looked back at the drug and alcohol issues, family breakdowns, and we’re treating those, rather than saying, ‘You can’t reoffend.’ It doesn’t work at that end, we’ve got to get into the system early on, and that’s why we’re shifting our proposals into tackling economic well-being, giving people jobs, growth and skills—and you’ll get fed up of hearing me talk about this, but actually we’ve got to this and tackle the well-being aspect of ACEs, because that’s where we have to invest our finance to make sure children don’t get into the youth justice system.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Cabinet Secretary, can I ask you, in light of the UK Government’s recent publication of the Taylor review of youth justice, whether the Welsh Government intends to pursue greater influence over youth justice in Wales through the existing powers we have with regard to vulnerable children? So, for example, the last Welsh Government proposed the establishment of statutory reintegration and resettlement partnership under the Social Services and Well-being (Wales) Act 2014, but we didn’t make it because of the time before running up to the Assembly elections. So, is it now time to put this back on the agenda and to explore other areas where, in Wales, we can do things differently and do things better?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

Indeed, and I’m very familiar with that proposal and the Charlie Taylor review. I met with Dr Phillip Lee MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State only on Monday to talk about the Taylor review. We discussed there the issue around devolution. I think Charlie Taylor got it wrong in his observations. He talked about devolution in an English sense, not recognising that most of the services provided around youth justice are actually devolved already. So, health and social services are all functions of this Government or bodies that are related to this Government. I talked to Phillip Lee, and he was minded—he’s going to come to visit Wales to discuss the issues that are pertinent to us, but I think, ultimately, this should be part of the Wales Bill and should be devolved to us. We are doing a great job in managing young people and their aspirations for the future. It would be wrong to go backwards a step. To be fair to the Under-Secretary of State, he did agree with us in terms of that; he didn’t want to take a retrograde step, he wanted to work with us.

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

In response to the Taylor review just referred to, which was published on Monday, the review of youth justice, the measures announced by the UK Government include launching two secure schools, concentrating on English, maths and a range of work-training schemes to help reform and to help offenders find work on release. In February 2010, the Assembly’s Communities and Culture Committee produced a report, ‘Youth Justice: The experience of Welsh children in the Secure Estate’, recommending that the Welsh Government engage with the UK Government

‘towards enabling the development of new secure estate placements in Wales, using the Hillside secure unit in Neath as a model, and including the development of provision in an appropriate location in North Wales.’

Could you update us on what engagement, in the context of the Taylor review recommendations, has occurred?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

Yes, thank you, and I’m sure the Member was listening to my response to Huw Irranca-Davies. We disagree with much of Charlie Taylor’s review. We will not be introducing secure schools here in Wales. I have visited the Hillside programme. I am looking at step-down facilities. From that, we do have Welsh solutions for these problems. I don’t think the secure school process is the right and appropriate way. We shouldn’t be incarcerating our young people; we should be supporting them upfront.

Lee Waters (Labour, Llanelli)

7. What is being done to maintain momentum on the implementation of the Cardiff Violence Prevention Programme across Wales? OAQ(5)0076(CC)

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I thank the Member for his question. The Welsh Government is committed to making our communities safe. I welcome initiatives such as the Cardiff violence prevention programme, which has had a positive impact on our communities, and we are working with our NHS colleagues to move this forward.

Lee Waters (Labour, Llanelli)

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. It’s been some years now since Professor Jonathan Shepherd did pioneering work in Cardiff to collect A&E data to reduce violence in Cardiff city centre. Since then, the English Government have used that approach and hard-wired it into the operation of public services in England. What can be done to make sure that we maintain the momentum behind our own programme, and what are the opportunities under the implementation of the ask-and-act policy under the Violence against Women, Domestic Abuse and Sexual Violence (Wales) Act 2015 to make sure that data are collected and acted upon?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

Yes, I think Jonathan Shepherd has done a remarkable job. Indeed, from his work on this, he now features in my advisory group on domestic violence services. So, he’s bringing his intelligence around this to this programme too. The requirements through the NHS and emergency services departments is the challenge we face at the moment, about integrating it across the system. But it is something I know the health Minister is looking at very carefully to make sure we push this agenda out. It is a great prevent model, because we know if we can recognise where there are issues in communities through alcohol misuse and violence, then we can prevent that if we have some hard-line, early interventions. So, I’m grateful for the Member’s question today. I will ask the Cabinet Secretary for health to update you on how the implementation is going through the NHS system.

David Melding (Conservative, South Wales Central)

Can I add to the commendation of this particular programme, because there’s no doubt that we can use data very effectively to see where behaviour change can result from some fairly small changes to the way we deliver services or what we allow in the urban environment, for example, whether you have glass glasses or plastic glasses. There are lots of things there that contain the issue of a lot of young people drinking too much at certain times and then behaving badly, and, with some changes like street pastors, there are lots of things that can help reduce the level of violence.

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

The Member’s right and, again, it’s an excellent programme where research came from not within the community safety sector but from the medical sector, which was really interesting. When we measured the impact in Cardiff, violence fell by 42 per cent, which is a huge, huge amount. We must continue to roll this programme out and, as I said to the previous question, we will update Members in terms of how this programme is being secured across our estate.

Paul Davies (Conservative, Preseli Pembrokeshire)

8. Will the Minister outline what the Welsh Government is doing to regenerate communities in Pembrokeshire? OAQ(5)0075(CC)

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I thank the Member for his question. The regeneration priorities for Pembrokeshire are to support town centres and to help sustain resilient communities. This is being delivered through support from the town-centre loan fund and the town-centre partnership initiative.

Paul Davies (Conservative, Preseli Pembrokeshire)

Cabinet Secretary, you’ll no doubt be aware of the planned closure of Lloyds bank branches throughout Wales and that the number of planned closures in Pembrokeshire is wholly disproportionate to the number of nationwide closures, given that three of the 49 planned branch closures happen to actually be in my own constituency. Deputy Presiding Officer, I should declare an interest as a former employee of Lloyds Bank. Given that these banks are a lifeline for many people and that their closure will have a huge impact on those communities, can you tell us what the Welsh Government is doing to help to mitigate against the negative effects of these closures on communities in Pembrokeshire, and what specific regeneration assistance will actually be available to support those affected communities?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

Of course, I recognise the impact that bank closures can have on constituencies, and other Members have raised that too. It seems to have all gone downhill since the Member left, perhaps, in terms of his former role. Specifically in Pembrokeshire, we are supporting Pembrokeshire County Council with £1.25 million through the Vibrant and Viable Places town-centre loans scheme to reduce the number of vacant, underutilised and redundant sites and premises in the town centres of Pembroke, Milford Haven and Haverfordwest. We do have to work in partnership to make sure that we get this off the ground here. It’s really hard to turn communities around—once these properties become empty, getting them re-floated is a difficult one. So, I and Ken Skates are working across both parts of the departments to make sure that we can make investments not only in Pembrokeshire, but across Wales.

Simon Thomas (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

Minister, there can be unforeseen consequences to regeneration on occasion. Improvements to the road infrastructure, for example, in Fishguard means that Transition Bro Gwaun, which is a community regeneration project, is losing its home, which is used to have a surplus food cafe, involving many local people and also doing a very good environmental job. They also do a wider regeneration job in that they have a community turbine part-owned by the local community. Obviously, this is a decision, I accept, for Pembrokeshire County Council, and I’ll be contacting them directly, but I think a clear direction from Welsh Government that there should be an integrated approach to ensure that we don’t lose things when we do regeneration activities would be useful in this context.

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

This is the whole purpose of the well-being Act. The well-being of a community is based upon looking at what the community needs, what the community has and what we can develop with them. Again, I’m not familiar with the very specific question the Member raises, but it seems to me that this could have been planned through in the first place. I would urge the Member to take it up with the local authority.

Caroline Jones (UKIP, South Wales West)

9. Will the Minister outline the Welsh Government’s priorities on tackling child poverty in south Wales? OAQ(5)0081(CC)

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I thank the Member for her question. Our priorities for tackling child poverty include building a strong economy, increasing employability and supporting parents into work, and improving outcomes in the early years.

Caroline Jones (UKIP, South Wales West)

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. Wales continues to have some of the highest levels of child poverty in the UK. Within my region, South Wales West, we have over 36,000 children living in poverty, and that’s 28.4 per cent of the region’s children. The UK Social Mobility and Child Poverty Commission annual state of the nation report was critical of the Welsh Government’s policies, stating that they’re not having the right level of impact. You announced yesterday that it was unlikely that we would achieve the target of eradicating child poverty by 2020. The children’s commissioner has said that instead of an arbitrary target, we would now need to deliver an ambitious plan with specific and measurable actions that will improve outcomes for children and families in poverty. Cabinet Secretary, could you tell me please what changes you are proposing to make to your child poverty strategy for my region over the next three years, because poverty is blighting the opportunities of these children, who are more likely to suffer poor health, do less well at school and have poor employment prospects in the future?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

The Member is right to raise this very important issue, and we made a statement yesterday and I’ve had, I think, three questions today on child poverty. So, it is on everybody’s agenda, and rightly so. What I did say in the statement yesterday is that we don’t hold all the levers and drivers to achieve the ambitious target by 2020, and I will be very open about that, but there are things that we can do. Analysis by the Institute for Fiscal Studies shows households in Wales will lose 1.6 per cent of their net income on average, or around £459 a year, as a result planned tax and benefit reforms to be introduced by 2020. So, this is another aspect where we have no involvement but which actually has a major impact on our communities. So, why are we changing our direction of travel in tackling jobs and well-being? This is because we know that the current situation is finding it very hard to deal with the issues that tackle poverty.

I’m grateful for the Member’s support for the way that we’re going to be tackling issues around adverse childhood experiences, and I hope that she can support us on the budget when it’s laid in the early new year.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Within our south Wales Valleys towns, there have been immense and sustained efforts within recent years to economically and socially regenerate those communities that were devastated in those years after the—. [Interruption]

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Can you ask the question on the order paper, please?

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

My apologies, my apologies. [Interruption]. I know—seven months. I will get the hang of this. [Laughter.]

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

You’ve got four years. Carry on.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

10. What discussions has the Minister had with the Minister overseeing the Valleys Taskforce on the regeneration of valleys communities? OAQ(5)0078(CC)

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I’m grateful for the Member’s question. The Welsh Government has supported successive regeneration programmes in the Valleys, including the current capital programme, Vibrant and Viable Places. I have explored with the Minister how all parts of my portfolio can support the work that he does running alongside the emerging priorities of the taskforce.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

I thank the Cabinet Secretary, and he may have some hint of where I’m going with this question. [Laughter.] Within our south Wales Valleys towns, there have been immense and sustained efforts in recent years to economically and socially regenerate those communities that were devastated in the hard years after the collieries closed, and those efforts continue. But one of the most visible scars of the economic decline in some Valleys towns is the lasting downturn on the high streets, and it’s also a reflection of changing shopping patterns as well as lower spending power and footfall, reflected in closure of shops and empty premises, and in itself can lead to a feeling of further decline unless it’s rapidly arrested. So, can I ask the Cabinet Secretary: in collaboration with other Cabinet colleagues and the Minister with the taskforce for the Valleys, whether he will assess the effectiveness of existing measures that can help with the physical regeneration of the high streets in our Valleys towns, and examine the scope for further measures that could boost the economic vitality of these high streets? And of course, I’d be delighted to welcome him to Ogmore any time to show him the successes we’ve had in community and economic regeneration, as well as the remaining challenges.

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

Indeed. The Member raises a strong question there in terms of the difficult job of changing some of our more disconnected communities outside the Vibrant and Viable Places programme. The Vibrant and Viable Places programme has delivered many successful programmes, but I do recognise the issue that the Member has raised, and Alun Davies, in particular, has raised these issues with me. I am looking at what the future of regeneration programmes may look like. The Member may wish to drop me a line in terms of his ideas to see whether there is anything he can influence my decisions on in terms of what that might look like for the benefit of his constituency.

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Thank you very much, Cabinet Secretary.

3. Urgent Question: Post Office Provision

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

We have accepted two urgent questions this afternoon under Standing Order 12.66. I call on Llyr Gruffydd to ask the first urgent question.

Llyr Gruffydd (Plaid Cymru, North Wales)

Will the Government make a statement on the effect of the UK Government’s plans for a reduction in Post Office provision in rural areas? EAQ(5)0092(CC)[W]

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I thank the Member for his question. We recognise the importance of post offices and the important services they provide to local communities. As the Member will know, this is not a devolved matter, however I understand that the UK Government are currently consulting on the post office network. This consultation contains no specific proposals for rural post offices.

Llyr Gruffydd (Plaid Cymru, North Wales)

Well, I’m not sure if that’s entirely correct, Cabinet Secretary, because there is a duty at the moment for the Post Office to ensure that there is provision within some 3 miles of 95 per cent of the rural community in the UK. That is being reviewed as part of the proposals put forward by the UK Government at the moment, and who knows what the outcome of that will be. But certainly, it’s a cause of concern for us all, and on top of that, we know that the subsidy provided by the Westminster Government to the post office network will lapse in a little over a year, in March 2018. Now, with post offices at their busiest, of course, at this Christmas period, can you tell us what input you as a Government have had into this review that is ongoing, particularly bearing in mind, of course, that only last week the First Minister told me, in response to a question on the future of rural banks, that his priority now is to secure the future of the post office network, because they can provide certain services in banking? Would you agree with me, Cabinet Secretary, that the best way now of securing the future of our post offices in Wales is to ensure that it’s all devolved to us here?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I’m certainly supportive of the principle of supporting post offices in our communities, and rightly so, but the Member is right that this decision matter lies with the UK Government. I am not aware of the plans to close rural post offices. I think the Member may have picked up this story from ‘The Telegraph’—[Interruption.]—and other information sources. My understanding is that the current UK Government has committed to maintaining the post office network at its current size of 11,600 branches, but he’s right to raise the issue that we should keep an eye on what they’re doing in Westminster, as who knows what they may do with the post offices in the future.

Simon Thomas (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

There is a risk for many communities, however, because we’re already losing the banks—as has already been mentioned a number of times in the Assembly recently—and the solution for that, for a number of bodies, including the Government here and the Government in Westminster, is using the post office network to deal with that loss. Now, there are two problems there. There’s the problem that Llyr Gruffydd has just outlined, but the second problem is that not all post offices, particularly in our smaller towns, can cope with businesses. What we need is a safe window to deal with the funds paid into post offices by businesses, and if we lose our banks, then post offices do have to handle rural businesses and businesses in rural towns. There’s a good example of this happening in Blaenau Ffestiniog, where the post office has moved, but in moving it has safeguarded the ability to deal with small businesses. That’s how we want to see things developing. Although it’s not devolved, it’s extremely important that this Government does put pressure on the Westminster Government to ensure that that provision is available in rural Wales, and that it’s adequate, not only for individuals but also for small businesses, too.

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

The Member is right; the consultation currently under way is intended to inform the next state aid application to allow the Government to continue to fund the uneconomic elements of the Post Office network, which I think they should look at very carefully. The Welsh Government will be making a representation and I would urge the Member to do the same.

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

In fact, I think you’ve just answered my question. I think we’re all relying on that ‘Telegraph’ article in which the UK Government business, energy and industrial department says the consultation

‘has nothing to do with closing branches’,

and the Post Office spokesperson said the consultation was part of the Government’s application to the European Union to continue the state aid to the network.

I welcome the fact that you say you’re going to make representations. I wonder if you could confirm that you would share both the representations you make and the responses you receive with the Assembly.

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I think it would be difficult if we were to start having urgent questions by ‘The Telegraph’ every week—because it’s in ‘The Telegraph’. I would suggest that wasn’t the case in this case, but I did also see the article in that publication. I will be happy to share with Members the Government’s response and the response back from the UK Ministers.

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Thank you very much, Cabinet Secretary.

4. Urgent Question: The Proposed M4 Relief Road

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

I now call on Neil Hamilton to ask the second urgent question. Neil Hamilton.

Neil Hamilton (UKIP, Mid and West Wales)

Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on the announcement today on the public inquiry into the proposed M4 relief road? EAQ(5)0099(EI)

Julie James (Labour, Swansea West)

The Minister’s statement this morning simply states the date of the public inquiry and it says that:

‘The project shall proceed to be considered by independent inspectors at an inquiry determined by the planning inspectorate to commence on 28 February 2017, with a pre-inquiry meeting…on 27 January.’

Neil Hamilton (UKIP, Mid and West Wales)

Can I thank the Minister for that statement and welcome today’s announcement, and, indeed, point out that when the Cabinet Secretary made his statement on this last on 3 October, he said it would start no later than 31 March next year? So, it’s welcome news that it’s going to start a month earlier than the latest possible date.

David Cameron, in one of his more memorable statements, described the current situation of the congestion on the M4 as a

‘foot on the windpipe of the Welsh economy’.

It is vital, therefore, that this inquiry should be concluded at the earliest possible date.

Does the Minister have any indication how long the inquiry’s likely to last? In the statement in October, it was said to last around five months. Has that estimate been revised? Since October, the traffic forecasts for the future on the M4 have been revised to a lower level and I wonder if the Government’s enthusiasm for the black route has dimmed—[Interruption.] I’m asking a question now. [Interruption.] If the Government’s enthusiasm for the black route has diminished and therefore the blue route will get proper consideration as an alternative, I wonder if the Minister can also tell me whether she or any of her colleagues has had any meetings with Professor Stuart Cole or anybody who has been an advocate for the blue route to work up the case for that as an alternative to the black route in the context of this inquiry, and therefore whether she will confirm that the Government will take a reasonably open-minded view about this, that there is more than one way of solving this problem and that the evidence that the Government gives to the inquiry will take full account of the alternative propositions that are on offer. [Interruption.]

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Thank you. Minister, will you answer, please?

Julie James (Labour, Swansea West)

In the spirit of openness and transparency, full technical economic and environmental reporting that informed the review of the data is published on the Welsh Government website, allowing everyone to consider it. The public inquiry will take into account the views of everybody concerned. It will take as long as it takes. I’m well aware that there is a range of views towards this project across the Chamber and elsewhere across Wales, and the whole purpose of the inquiry is to allow those views to be heard and taken into account in the decision-making process.

Russell George (Conservative, Montgomeryshire)

Minister, can you confirm—? The Cabinet Secretary today said that works would commence in 2018, but clearly the end of 2018 is 24 months away from now. Can you confirm when in 2018 it may start? Can you refine that date a little, subject, of course, to the public inquiry outcome?

In your statement today, you say that the Cabinet Secretary said the latest assessment indicates that future traffic levels, taking into account the latest metro proposals, will continue to grow, but slightly slower than previously thought. Will the new modelling have an impact on other infrastructure projects in the pipeline? And finally, can you confirm that the project is still viable at the estimated costs, with the revised data for population added?

Julie James (Labour, Swansea West)

Well, Deputy Presiding Officer, I’m now at risk of reading out the written statement made by the Cabinet Secretary this morning, which contains all of the information. The written statement this morning simply sets out the latest position on the review of data that was announced by the Cabinet Secretary earlier. The statement simply states the date of the commencement of the public inquiry, which I’m sure all of us welcome, and it sets out some possibilities as a result of a public inquiry.