Senedd Cymru (Welsh Parliament), 11 January 2017

300 contributions from 43 members. The official report.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

I call the National Assembly to order.

1. 1. Questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Local Government

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The first item on our agenda this afternoon is questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Local Government. And the first question, Dai Lloyd.

David Lloyd (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

1. Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on planned capital expenditure within this Assembly term? OAQ(5)0077(FLG)

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Our spending plans, approved by the Assembly yesterday, provide for nearly £7 billion of capital investment over the next four years.

David Lloyd (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

Thank you for that response. Further to that, the Welsh Government’s infrastructure investment plan lists some 350 investments across Wales, with a total value of over £40 billion. You will be aware of that, I’m sure. Clearly, capital settlements provided by the UK Government, or the limited borrowing powers of this Assembly, will enable us to deliver all of those infrastructure improvements required over the next few years. Given the fact that the consultation on creating a national infrastructure commission for Wales, or NICW, is now closed—it closed on Monday—what discussions are you to have with the Cabinet Secretary for Economy and Infrastructure on devising an innovative funding system that will enable us to deliver more of these necessary projects, something similar to the vision put forward by Plaid Cymru for the body—our NICW as compared with your NICW?

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Well, thank you very much for that second question.

Rwy’n parhau i drafod y materion hyn yn rheolaidd gydag Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet dros yr economi. Roedd y drafft o’r gyllideb derfynol, a gymeradwywyd ddoe, yn dangos cynnydd sylweddol yn y dyraniadau cyfalaf sydd ar gael i’r portffolio hwnnw at ddibenion buddsoddi cyfalaf pwysig. Rydym yn parhau i chwilio am ragor o gyfleoedd i allu buddsoddi yn yr agweddau ar economi Cymru sy’n darparu elw drwy’r gweithgarwch economaidd ychwanegol y byddant yn ei gynhyrchu. Gwn fod Ken Skates yn edrych ymlaen at drafodaethau pellach gyda Phlaid Cymru ynglŷn â gwahanol fodelau i’n galluogi i barhau â’r math hwnnw o fuddsoddiad.

Julie Morgan (Labour, Cardiff North)

I’m very pleased about the plans to replace the Velindre Cancer Centre with a new building on the Whitchurch Hospital land. Could the Cabinet Secretary provide an update about the funding that will be available for the new Velindre Cancer Centre?

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

I thank Julie Morgan for that further question. She’s referring to work that was begun by my predecessor, Jane Hutt, because, even with the additional £440 million of capital investment announced in the autumn statement, the Welsh Government’s capital budget will be 21 per cent lower in 2019 than in 2009, and that means that we have had to look for innovative ways in which we can fund very important capital developments in the future. The new Velindre Cancer Centre is one of three such schemes that are in development. They will have a total capital value of around £1 billion. Now, the Welsh mutual investment model has recently been explored with the Office for National Statistics to make sure that, when we are finally in a position to move ahead with it, its expenditure will not count against our capital departmental expenditure limit. And those conversations have proceeded, I think, constructively, and I hope to be in a position to report their outcome to the Assembly within the next few weeks.

Suzy Davies (Conservative, South Wales West)

Good afternoon.

Gan gyfeirio’n ôl at gwestiwn Dai Lloyd, bydd Cadw, fel y gwyddoch mae’n debyg, yn defnyddio refeniw a godwyd ar wahanol safleoedd Cadw er mwyn cyfrannu at y gwariant cyfalaf ar rai o’n safleoedd mwyaf pwysig yma yng Nghymru. Rwy’n meddwl yn benodol am Abaty Nedd, y clustnodwyd £0.25 miliwn neu ychydig dros hynny ar ei gyfer eleni, ond nid yw’n glir iawn i mi faint o’r gyllideb gyfalaf y bydd yn ei defnyddio dros y blynyddoedd nesaf. Y model buddsoddi cydfuddiannol rydych newydd sôn amdano gyda Julie Morgan—a oes lle i syniad o’r fath mewn perthynas â buddsoddi yn ein hadeiladau hanesyddol pwysig nad ydynt yn ôl pob tebyg, ar eu pennau eu hunain, yn codi llawer iawn o arian?

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Well, Chair, in front of the Finance Committee this morning, I explored the fact that there are a range of different capital ways in which we can invest in Wales—traditional capital, financial transaction capital, the new borrowing ability that we will have should the Wales Bill pass, and then innovative funding models. We are trying to use all the levers at our disposal in order to carry out those very important capital investments that are there right across the range of responsibilities that the Assembly discharges. Now, in the case of Cadw, the Cabinet Secretary has had discussions with Cadw about them themselves supporting capital investment through the revenue that they raise, and that’s yet another way in which we’re able to do this, but we remain open to looking at all the different methods that are available to us in order to do important work of the sort that the Member just identified.

Adam Price (Plaid Cymru, Carmarthen East and Dinefwr)

2. Is it Welsh Government policy to support a local authority-led pilot of a universal basic income? OAQ(5)0072(FLG)

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Thank you for the question. No local authority in Wales has yet contacted the Welsh Government seeking support for a basic income pilot. Nevertheless I intend to monitor the progress of the feasibility work currently being carried out in Fife and Glasgow. While there are clear competence questions to be addressed here, universal basic income has the potential to make a significant contribution to addressing poverty and inequality.

Adam Price (Plaid Cymru, Carmarthen East and Dinefwr)

I welcome the Cabinet Secretary’s comments. He’s referred, of course, to the pilot in Scotland. There is widespread support, I believe, for this concept now across the political spectrum and, yes, on the left—we recall that it was Milton Friedman who was one of the early advocates of this concept, and Richard Nixon actually staged the first ever pilot scheme. If local government did want to experiment in this area, shouldn’t we take this opportunity to look at how this exceptionally innovative concept can contribute towards the well-being of our people in the future?

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Thank you for the question.

Rwy’n awyddus iawn i gadw mewn cysylltiad â’r gwaith dichonoldeb sy’n mynd rhagddo yn Fife a Glasgow. Credaf ei bod yn bwysig bod yn realistig ynglŷn â’r hyn y maent wedi cychwyn ei wneud. Maent yn gobeithio trefnu astudiaeth ddichonoldeb dros y misoedd nesaf. Byddai’r astudiaeth ddichonoldeb honno yn casglu tystiolaeth, a phe bai’r dystiolaeth honno’n ddigon cryf, byddent yn sefydlu rhaglen beilot. Ond er hynny, mae hwnnw’n gam ymlaen yng nghyd-destun y DU. Mae hanes o lwyddiant gan incwm sylfaenol mewn rhannau eraill o’r byd eisoes. Talwyd incwm sylfaenol i ddinasyddion yn Alaska ers 1982 o gronfa ddifidend barhaol Alaska. Ac er ei fod yn waith sydd, yn yr Alban, wedi cael cefnogaeth yr SNP—yn Glasgow, caiff ei arwain gan gynghorydd Llafur, yn Fife, fe’i cefnogwyd gan arweinydd y grŵp Ceidwadol ar y cyngor yno—er hynny, pe baem yn parhau ag ef, byddai’n rhaid i ni fod yn barod i wynebu penawdau o’r math a ddefnyddiwyd gan bapur newydd ‘The Sun’ wrth adrodd ar arbrawf Glasgow, gan ddweud ei fod yn talu cyflog am ddim gwaith, hyd yn oed i bobl â swyddi. Felly, mae’r syniad, er ei fod yn ddeniadol o ran y ffordd y gallai symleiddio a chynorthwyo pobl sy’n gorfod dibynnu ar hyn o bryd ar gyfuniad cymhleth iawn o waith rhan-amser, budd-daliadau rhan-amser ac yn y blaen—bydd yn her i’r byd gwleidyddol argyhoeddi’r cyhoedd ynglŷn â rhinweddau’r cynllun.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

The Sun’ newspaper will do what ‘The Sun’ newspaper does, if it merits the actual phrase of ‘newspaper’ being put after it. But, could I welcome both the question that’s been put and the positive way in which the Minister has responded? And, whilst some would argue from the right and the left, who are supporters of this approach for different reasons, that you cannot actually pilot it but you need to just do it, I would draw his attention to some interesting work that was done in 2013 in central London, where the equivalent of a minimum universal income was given to 13 homeless individuals, without conditions, with no conditionality, in the hope that something positive would happen. And, of course, the sceptics said ‘Well, that’ll be squandered and wasted.’ A year later, 11 of those were not only in homes, with accommodation, but many of them were actually in work as well. Now, I think this is an interesting area for us to explore, for us to examine, and potentially in future, as we see it evolve in other areas, for us to look at in Wales as well in one form or another. So I welcome the open-minded response that the Cabinet Secretary has indicated.

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

I thank Huw Irranca-Davies for that contribution. It’s very interesting, the example that he points to. Of course, Finland began a pilot of universal basic income on 1 January this year, which is very much focused on the sort of population to which he referred. That’s a major trial involving 2,000 randomly selected people who are currently unemployed, to see what an unconditional basic income might do in their lives.

The idea is not a new one, Llywydd. A long time ago, in the 1970s and 1980s, I spent my time interviewing a group of people who had marched around the streets during the 1930s, demanding what they called ‘the social dividend’, and what was in fact a simple, basic income scheme. So, it’s an idea with considerable roots in our social policy—always struggled to manage to find a practical way of taking it forward. But it is an opportunity for us in Wales to watch what is being attempted elsewhere and to see whether we could do anything practical with the idea ourselves.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

I now call on the party spokespeople to ask questions of the Cabinet Secretary. The Conservatives’ spokesperson, Nick Ramsay.

Nick Ramsay (Conservative, Monmouth)

Diolch. Happy new year, Cabinet Secretary.

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Thank you.

Nick Ramsay (Conservative, Monmouth)

I am risking repetition, with this morning’s committee, which you’ve already mentioned, but it is fresh in the mind and extremely important: can you update us on your agreement with the UK Government on the much-awaited fiscal framework?

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Can I thank the Member for his question and for the persistence with which he has pursued this issue on the floor of the Assembly? So, Members will recall that discussions with the Chief Secretary to the Treasury began as far back as July of last year and came to a conclusion just after the Assembly went into recess before Christmas, with an agreement between the Welsh Government and the United Kingdom Government on the Welsh Government’s fiscal framework. As well as providing evidence to the Finance Committee this morning, I will make an oral statement on the floor of the Assembly on Tuesday next week, because the fiscal framework has been created within the context of the Wales Bill, and I hope to be able to report to Assembly Members and answer any questions in advance of the debate that we will have on the Wales Bill legislative consent motion.

Nick Ramsay (Conservative, Monmouth)

Thank you for your commitment to a statement next week and also for your team’s efforts in this regard. I think it is a good example of what can be achieved when the Welsh Government, the Assembly as a whole, and the UK Government work together. It’s not always happened in the past, but it’s good to see that progress has been made. Can you clarify, as you understand it, the permanence of this new arrangement? Have the UK Government committed to a long-term arrangement rather than the previous Parliament-long commitment that, as I understand, was the case back then?

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Yes, Llywydd, it’s an important point to make, isn’t it, that the fiscal framework will only stand if the Wales Bill proceeds on to the statute book. Making that assumption for the moment, if it does, then this is a permanent agreement. There was a great coup in the last Assembly term when my predecessor, Jane Hutt, negotiated a funding floor for Wales. Establishing that as a principle was a very important breakthrough, but it was a temporary funding floor to last for the period of this comprehensive spending review. The funding floor agreed in this fiscal framework is a permanent part of the landscape between the Welsh Government and the UK Government.

Nick Ramsay (Conservative, Monmouth)

That is certainly good news, Cabinet Secretary, and a major plus of the current Wales Bill as it progresses. These are clearly fiscally complex times for the Assembly with the devolution of new taxes, the consequent variance in the block grant, the advent of borrowing powers—I could go on. I understand that the agreement allows for yearly review of arrangements. Can you update us on arrangements for additional mediation between the Governments if there is a future disagreement over sums coming to Wales? How do you intend to safeguard the independence of arrangements on both sides, when those disagreements will ultimately, eventually show themselves to appear?

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

I thank Nick Ramsay. One of the distinctive features of the agreement is that it allows for both sides to introduce independent analysis and advice if there are disputes between the parties. That is a novel feature of the agreement and not something that the Treasury has historically been keen to sign up to.

So, the fiscal framework sets out a process as to how any disagreements are to be resolved, and allows at each stage in that process both the Treasury and the Welsh Government to deploy independent advice, secured on both sides, to assist in the resolution of those matters. It’s an issue that I will continue to explore over the next few months as to how we can best obtain that independent advice for Wales. There are a number of options available. I’ll want to weigh them up, but the principle is a really important one: in an era in which the Treasury has generally been the judge, the jury, has been able to have a monopoly of evidence on which decisions are made, we will have an independent strand that we will be able to deploy, and that will create a different sort of playing field and a different sort of debate.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Plaid Cymru’s spokesperson, Adam Price.

Adam Price (Plaid Cymru, Carmarthen East and Dinefwr)

Diolch, Lywydd. Politicians from the Cabinet Secretary’s party and from mine have long bemoaned the fact that the UK Government’s capital investment has tended to benefit one corner of the country, the south east of England, over all others. Does he think that the Welsh Government has a better record of achieving an even spread of investment across Wales?

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Well, the basic premise on which capital investment decisions are made by the Welsh Government is not geographic. Our ambition is to invest in those capital projects that provide the best return for Wales, and it is the quality of the project, rather than their geographical location, that would be the primary determining factor. That said, there are good ideas and good projects in all parts of Wales, and our capital plans, as set out in the budget yesterday, I think demonstrate that, wherever there are important jobs to be done and ideas that merit investment, this Government will pursue them.

Adam Price (Plaid Cymru, Carmarthen East and Dinefwr)

Yes, but does that explain the vast gap that we see in the Cabinet Secretary’s own figures—he’s provided them in a written question—between the different regions of Wales? I’ll just give one example, the spend per capita. Welsh Government capital investment over four years, the last four years, in mid and west Wales is half the over £1,000 per head figure for south-east Wales. Next year, it’s projected to fall to 29 per cent. Nothing can justify that level of gap. I have to say, we heard in the Chamber yesterday, I would say, a rather sneering tone of metropolitan provincialism attacking my party for at least trying to get some concession, some investment in the regions and the constituencies that we represent. We make no apology—[Interruption.] We make no apology for equalising the level of investment.

He is a more thoughtful politician than some of his colleagues, and, by the way, those attitudes were present on the Conservative benches as well, also from Members that either represent or live in the most prosperous part of Wales. I would ask him this: will he commit to equalising the level of investment across Wales, so that it’s not left up to my party, year in, year out, to fight for bloody scraps at the bottom of anyone’s pork-barrel?

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Well, Llywydd—. Look, there is a serious point in what the Member has to say, which is that we all need to recognise that all parts of Wales need to feel that this National Assembly is attentive to their needs, and that what goes on here results in decisions where they can see the benefit in their lives. Where I think he goes wrong is in trying to portray the decisions we make as not having any interest in that topic. Of course they do. That’s why you see the major investments that you see in all parts of Wales. It isn’t surprising that population makes a difference to investment. The vast bulk of the population of Wales lives in certain parts of Wales, and it’s inevitable that some of the major investments will follow that, but he —[Interruption.] No, no, the per capita figure doesn’t counteract what I just said, because, cumulatively, those per capita expenditures will result in the agglomeration of investment in particular parts. But, if the serious point he is making is do we need to make sure that we invest everywhere where there are important things that need to be done, and that we can demonstrate to people across Wales that we take their needs seriously, then that’s a point on which I would not disagree with him.

Adam Price (Plaid Cymru, Carmarthen East and Dinefwr)

The only crumb of comfort that I, as a Welsh nationalist, can take from the kind of figures that I’ve laid out—which show the Cardiff centricity, I think, of the leadership, unfortunately, of the Labour Party—is that at least one region of Wales should be doing well. But we see the same chronic mismanagement here, and I ask him, in his role as local government Minister: is he aware of the fact that the split in the Cardiff Labour group now threatens to endanger the entire £1.2 billion city deal? What does it say for the Cabinet Secretary’s preferred model of regional economic development, the joint committee model? If Labour cannot even work jointly among itself on one authority, how is it going to work cross-party across 10 different authorities as well?

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

I think the Member’s line of questioning this afternoon rather risks him being less of a Welsh nationalist than a particular fraction of Wales nationalism. I am confident that the votes that are necessary in 10 different local authorities across Wales to secure the governance arrangements that will allow us to move forward with the city deal, that those votes will take place and will take place successfully across south Wales over coming weeks.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

UKIP spokesperson, Mark Reckless.

Mark Reckless (UKIP, South Wales East)

The Cabinet Secretary said this morning that it was not a foregone conclusion that there’d be devolution of income tax-raising powers and that his group would be weighing it up over the weekend and only deciding on the legislative consent motion on Monday. I wonder if he could help me resolve an apparent discrepancy between that statement and the fiscal framework that he has signed on behalf of the Welsh Government, which states at paragraph 14

the Welsh Government’s funding will ultimately comprise two separate funding streams:

Revenues from business rates, devolved taxes (stamp duty land tax and landfill tax) and Welsh rates of income tax;

Adjusted block grant funding from the UK government.’

He told our committee this morning that partial devolution of income tax may not happen. Why, therefore, has he put his signature to a document that says devolution of the Welsh rates of income tax will happen?

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Well, Llywydd, the job of work I was given to do in negotiating the fiscal framework was to negotiate a framework that would see us through were partial devolution of income tax to take place. That’s why the whole of this agreement is built around that possibility, but it was clear to the Treasury throughout that process that the final decision on whether the Wales Bill would receive the legislative consent of this Assembly was for this Assembly to make, and, if this Assembly were not to agree to that legislative consent, then this framework would fall as a result and would have to be renegotiated based on the two taxes that would then be devolved. But it’s not a mystery at all. This framework was designed for the world that may take place if the Wales Bill reaches the statute book, and that’s why partial devolution of income tax is referred to throughout it.

Mark Reckless (UKIP, South Wales East)

I’m not sure if David Gauke, the UK Minister, would be particularly impressed to hear the Cabinet Secretary’s answer, because he, like you, has put his signature to a statement that says that

the Welsh Government’s funding will ultimately comprise’

and then lists a series of elements, which include Welsh rates of income tax. There’s no reference to contingency or different conditions. It says very clearly that Welsh rates of income tax will be devolved. Now, we are asked to believe that this decision has not been taken, but isn’t the reality that, even before the First Reading and the publication of the Wales Bill, and, in particular, that clause that removes the legislative requirement for a referendum prior to income tax-raising powers, actually, that was stitched up between a Welsh Labour Government and a Conservative Government in Westminster and that discussions were had between those two parties to come to that conclusion before that process even started?

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

No, I think the Member is entirely wrong. He really, really just misunderstands the whole process here. Mr Gauke will be surprised at absolutely nothing that I said in my first answer, because, in every discussion that I held with him, he understood that a precondition to this Assembly giving its consent to a legislative consent motion, if that is what it does, would be that there was a satisfactory fiscal framework in front of the Assembly that would convincingly explain to Members here how, if—if—partial devolution of income tax were to go ahead, the relationships between the Welsh Government and UK Government would navigate the fiscal consequences. That’s the absolute basis on which this document was drawn up, and Mr Gauke would understand that and, I think, echo that, if he was standing here this afternoon.

Mark Reckless (UKIP, South Wales East)

And Members can see that clear statement, as can members of the Welsh public, at paragraph 14 of that document. But the Cabinet Secretary says to me that I’ve misunderstood the whole process, and, yes, I’ve come to this with fresh eyes. And, perhaps because of that, I had to put a certain reliance on public documents and assurances given by the Welsh Government to the Welsh people. One of those assurances was given on the ballot paper, no less, of the 2011 referendum, which said that, if that result was for further devolution—a ‘yes’ vote—that would not lead to the devolution of tax-raising powers. Yet, now, despite that promise, these tax-raising powers are going to be forced on the Welsh public, who have no more desire to pay higher taxes than they have to remain in the European Union. Yet, the result of that referendum in 2011—that assurance given on the ballot paper—will be ignored by his Government to the same degree as they’d wish to ignore the decision of the Welsh people on our membership of the EU.

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Well, if the Member has a quarrel, it’s not with me, it’s with the Secretary of State for Wales, because this was a decision by a Conservative administration in Westminster, not by any politician in this Chamber. Nor is he right—[Interruption.] Not is he right to imply that what the Wales Bill provides is for an automatic rise in taxation. It simply provides this National Assembly with new flexibilities to make decisions in that field—decisions that may lead to some taxes going up, but could equally well lead to taxes being reduced. There is no automaticity of taxes rising as a result of the Wales Bill, should that Bill reach the statute book.

Llyr Gruffydd (Plaid Cymru, North Wales)

3. Will the Cabinet Secretary provide an update on the work of developing a Welsh treasury? OAQ(5)0078)[W]

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

The Welsh Treasury has established structures to manage effectively our public resources, including our new tax and borrowing powers. In the coming months, I will be announcing the chair of the Welsh Revenue Authority.

Llyr Gruffydd (Plaid Cymru, North Wales)

Thank you for that response, and, I hope, in the coming months, that you will announce where this is to be located, because the economy Secretary, of course, has said that he is considering Wrexham as a possible location for the development bank. Would you be willing to consider Wrexham as a possible location for the treasury? Because we know that the skilled workforce is there. HMRC is to close their centre there before too very long, so there are skills available—there’s even a building available. It would then be possible, of course, to create a financial hub in the north-east of Wales, which would then underline the fact that you as a Government, as you say, are investing in all parts of Wales.

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Well, thank you, of course, for the question. I heard yesterday Sian Gwenllian questioning the First Minister arguing for the authority’s headquarters to be located in Caernarfon. Of course, we’ve received a great many letters from Assembly Members trying to persuade me to establish the headquarters across Wales. I understand the reasons for that. The First Minister yesterday explained the work that is currently under way, and discussions with the unions are also under way about where we can locate the headquarters of the WRA. Now, it’s more than just a location with regard to this debate. As the First Minister said, we’ll have to recruit people with particular skills and expertise in a number of areas, and that will be part of the decision when I can make it.

Paul Davies (Conservative, Preseli Pembrokeshire)

Cabinet Secretary, the second annual report on implementing Part 2 of the Wales Act 2014 makes it clear that engagement with stakeholders has concentrated mainly on professionals and specialist technical groups to date. So, under these circumstances, can you tell us a little more about what the Welsh Government is doing to promote the Welsh Treasury more broadly to the public in Wales, so that everyone is aware of its role and responsibilities, not just professionals working in the area of taxation?

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

It’s an important point that the Member makes. As we move to establish the Welsh Revenue Authority, and particularly when we have a chair in place, and a board of individuals to support that chair, one of the important things that I will look to them do is to be the public face of that new authority. It is bound to be an organisation that is of particular interest to those people whose working lives are spent in this area, and the Member is absolutely right to say that the bulk of the discussions that have been held so far have concentrated on that world, and in drawing on their help—both in the way that we have framed the two tax Bills that are currently before the Assembly, but also, for example, in making sure that we have the best possible field of candidates for those very important posts. But as we move on and as we move towards the date when the Welsh Revenue Authority will go live, then it will have a relationship with a far wider population of the public in Wales, and there will be a job of work to do to make sure that communication with that wider public also happens. There will be a communication plan developed alongside the Welsh Revenue Authority. I undertook yesterday in response to the Finance Committee to report termly to the Assembly on how all this is developing, and that will be part of the report that I will make.

Joyce Watson (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

4. Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on the budget allocation to the environment portfolio? OAQ(5)0075(FLG)

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

I thank Joyce Watson for that. As set out in the 2017-18 budget, approved yesterday, the budget allocation for the environment and rural affairs portfolio next year is nearly £384 million.

Joyce Watson (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

I thank you, Cabinet Secretary, for that response. As you know, in recent years many of my constituents have been catastrophically affected by flood events caused by severe weather, and many still remain at risk because of where they live. Therefore, the £33 million capital funding that has been allocated for flooding schemes, in addition to the £150 million innovative coastal risk management scheme, which is due to start next year, comes as very good news for those people indeed. It does demonstrate that the Welsh Government is serious, and also proactive, when it comes to protecting people’s homes and businesses from flooding, and that is critical as future severe weather events are predicted more frequently. Bearing this in mind, will the Welsh Government commit to supporting flood defence schemes, like it has in the past, in the future?

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

I thank Joyce Watson for that. When we published the draft budget back in October we had some difficult decisions to make on capital investment in order to live within the means that we had available to us. I said to the Finance Committee in my first scrutiny session with them that, if any additional capital were to become available in the autumn statement, my first priority would be to revisit those portfolios where some of those difficult decisions had to be made. I was very pleased—and had a series of discussions with the Cabinet Secretary involved to impress this very firmly on me—to restore the £33 million for flood defence purposes. I was very pleased indeed to be able to do that.

I’m grateful to the Member for pointing to the £150 million innovative coastal risk management scheme, because you do have to see these two things together. It follows on from Suzy Davies’s question earlier about using the whole range of tools that we have available to us to promote capital investment for important purposes in Wales. The Welsh Government is now working with NRW and local authorities to prepare a pipeline of future schemes for investment using that £150 million, and I’m very pleased to be able to give the Member the assurance she seeks that we will continue to work hard in this area to obviate the difficulties that some of her constituents have faced.

David Melding (Conservative, South Wales Central)

Cabinet Secretary, I must say that in yesterday’s final budget debate I was very pleased to hear you refer to the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015, but I have to say, when the environment budget was before the committee, it seemed to me in our scrutiny of the budget line that the Act was used much more to interpret the existing budget than to actually shape it. I do hope in the future we will be able to see how lines differ and go up and down and programmes end or get expanded, relating to the priorities in what I think is a very, very useful Act.

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Can I thank the Member for that? I read very carefully what a range of scrutiny committees had to say on the budget. It was a theme in a number of committees—looking for greater evidence of impact that budget decisions were being shaped through the lens of the Act. I was very willing to accept, in front of the Finance Committee, that there is more to do and, as we shape next year’s budget, I will be looking for ways, internally, that we can strengthen the way in which the lens of the Act is making a difference to our budget decisions, to then be able to demonstrate to Assembly Members that our budget allocations are being shaped by that Act.

In relation to prevention of flooding in the future, I think there is a whole series of ways in which you can see the goals of the Act, and the five ways of working that it comprises, reflected in these investment decisions.

Simon Thomas (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

I’m also very pleased to see the funding being restored to the environment portfolio in terms of flood prevention and mitigation. But, I would like to ask you specifically today about another additional allocation, which is the £40 million over four years of capital funding that you have allocated for energy efficiency. If I recall correctly, you said yesterday that this would be sufficient for 25,000 homes. So, I’d like to ask you more about what the Cabinet Secretary for climate change has asked you for. Is this a scheme for homes only? Does it cover businesses and the public sector too? How can we as an Assembly monitor the success of this scheme in terms of energy efficiency and the number of properties that are safeguarded in this way, and the energy savings and the financial savings that accrue to the community?

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

The additional funding involves more than just homes. There is work to be done in the area of housing and to assist those people who live in poverty. But, on Monday, the Cabinet Secretary made a statement referring to more than just work with regard to housing. She outlined the things that she wants to do with regard to green growth in Wales, and I’m sure that when there are questions here at the Assembly, and in other opportunities, the Cabinet Secretary will feed back on the schemes that she can now prepare with this additional funding.

Jenny Rathbone (Labour, Cardiff Central)

5. What plans does the Cabinet Secretary have to promote best practice in local government? OAQ(5)0070(FLG)

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

A range of mechanisms, Llywydd, exist to promote best practice in local government. An enhanced level of systematic and mandatory regional working will provide new opportunities for local government to share and implement best practice in future.

Jenny Rathbone (Labour, Cardiff Central)

Thank you for that, Cabinet Secretary. Flintshire’s Food for Life catering mark is an excellent example, I think, of good practice. Providing nutritious and pleasurable school meals to children, it’s also cost neutral and it provides greater scrutiny of where food comes from, which is obviously very important when we’re dealing with children. It also puts more money into local businesses. So, what proposals does the Cabinet Secretary have for ensuring that all local authorities are aware of the benefits of the Food for Life catering mark?

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

I thank Jenny Rathbone for drawing the attention of the Assembly to Flintshire’s Food for Life scheme. It is, I think, a really good example of a scheme that does practical work on the ground in a way that brings together a whole number of agendas, both environmental agendas but also agendas in relation to public health, and good practice in terms of food preparation, but also it involves the National Procurement Service as one of the key players in it. It recently received an award from the Food for Life scheme. In a sense, the whole awards agenda is designed to be able to draw the attention of others to good work that is going on in parts of Wales. We will publicise it through the ‘Food for Wales, Food from Wales’ strategy. We will use the National Procurement Service as a second way in which that good practice can be drawn to the attention of others. And, as I said in my opening answer, the fact that we are embarked on a discussion with local authorities about greater regional working—that by itself offers better opportunities for things that happen in one local authority to be shared and then spread into other neighbouring councils.

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

Cabinet Secretary, you’ll be aware that I raised this issue with your predecessors during the last term, but from April to the end of last year, the press and public were excluded from all or part of over 28 per cent of local authority cabinet meetings. Indeed, over half of authorities excluded the press and public from many meetings, with 100 per cent of meetings in the First Minister’s own constituency of Bridgend actually excluding them, and 90 per cent in Ceredigion. Conservative-led Monmouthshire, however, only excluded them, over that same time period, just once during that time. Now, in line with best practice from local authorities in other parts of the UK, would you not agree with me that it is now time for the elected leaders of our local authorities to recognise that such exclusion from our democratic processes at a local level is not acceptable? And therefore would you endorse support for local authorities such as Monmouthshire—and others, I might add, because there were significantly more authorities doing this? It seems that the message is getting through, but it’s not getting through fast enough. With local government elections approaching, would you agree with me that something needs to be done about this and it’s time for council leaders to actually value and recognise the fact that the council tax payer has every right to be included in the democratic process of any local authority?

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Well, Llywydd, I definitely do agree that the proceedings of local authorities ought to be as accessible as possible to local electors within their areas. I think there are some very good examples under the control of all political parties in this Chamber who have control of councils, and we do need to do more to accelerate the spread of that practice. I intend to use the opportunity of a local government Bill, if one comes my way during this Assembly, to legislate to strengthen the obligations upon councils to make their proceedings open and available to the public throughout Wales.

Neil Hamilton (UKIP, Mid and West Wales)

6. Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on the delivery of public services by local authorities? OAQ(5)0073(FLG)

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

I thank the Member for that question. Good public services play a vitally important role in the lives of all citizens in Wales. The Welsh Government continues to protect funding for all local authorities, so that vital services such as social care can go on being provided.

Neil Hamilton (UKIP, Mid and West Wales)

I thank the Cabinet Secretary for that reply. Another vital service that is provided by local authorities is adequate street lighting in urban areas. Will the Cabinet Secretary agree with me that Powys County Council seem to have embarked upon a rather bizarre policy of not replacing street lights that go out during the winter in places like Llanidloes because they’re engaged in a long-term plan to upgrade street lighting to more energy efficient LED lighting? Whilst nobody can object to the long-term objective, is it not unacceptable that my constituents have to grope around in the dark over large parts of Llanidloes because the county council won’t replace light bulbs?

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

I thank the Member for drawing that to my attention. It’s not a matter that I’d heard of previously, and I’m very happy to make inquiries of the local authority about it. On the more general point, I of course agree with him: this Government makes a very significant investment through our invest-to-save scheme in assisting local authorities to upgrade lighting in that way, which not only provides a better level of lighting and a more environmentally friendly form of lighting, but produces considerable savings for local authorities in the longer run.

Mark Reckless (UKIP, South Wales East)

7. Will the Cabinet Secretary outline what the Welsh Government expects to contribute towards City Deals? OAQ(5)0067(FLG)

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

The Welsh Government is already committed to contributing £503 million to the £1.2 billion Cardiff capital city deal. I hope that we will rapidly reach the point where a heads of terms agreement can be signed to secure the Swansea city deal and the funding that would support it.

Mark Reckless (UKIP, South Wales East)

I’m grateful to the Cabinet Secretary and support the city deal, as we don’t believe that devolution should stop at Cardiff Bay. Can I ask, where there’s the prospect of any contribution from the UK Government in any discussions over city deals, whether there is a risk that with the fiscal framework and the otherwise useful funding floor that that might mean that any contribution from the UK Government would be offset by reduced spending by them elsewhere in Wales?

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Llywydd, I don’t believe that that is a risk. Discussions on contributions to the city deal happen outside of the fiscal framework and in addition to it. In the Cardiff capital city deal the Welsh Government is contributing £503 million and the UK Government is contributing £500 million. In the discussions that we have over the Swansea city deal, we expect to secure the same tripartite arrangement, in which local authorities make a contribution, the Welsh Government makes a contribution and the UK Government makes a separate contribution, and that is outwith the arrangements that are covered in the fiscal framework.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

I thank the Cabinet Secretary.

2. 2. Questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Education

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The next item is questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Education and the first question is from Jeremy Miles.

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

1. What steps are the Welsh Government taking to enable pupils to have a fuller understanding of the opportunities open to them in the world of work? OAQ(5)0072(EDU)

Alun Davies (Labour, Blaenau Gwent)

Careers Wales provides independent and impartial information, advice and guidance on learning and career opportunities, including labour market information and intelligence. The company is actively supporting schools to engage with employers and businesses to provide students with opportunities to interact with the world of work.

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

I thank the Minister for that answer. Before I was elected I was a lawyer and when I was a schoolchild I didn’t know any lawyers. No parents of friends or family friends were lawyers but somehow it happened. But in today’s changing economy people may not even know what sorts of jobs are available as they’re going through school, and in regions such as my own we hope to see significant changes in the kind of opportunities coming forward. The Minister will be aware of the World Economic Forum report of this month, which encourages Governments to ensure that the world of work is embedded into the school journey from the earliest opportunity. So, in addition to the advice and the guidance that he referred to in his answer, would the Government consider issuing mandatory guidance to schools about embedding the world of work and the experience and opportunities into the school curriculum from an early age?

Alun Davies (Labour, Blaenau Gwent)

Can I say that I very much welcome the question and remarks from the Member for Neath? I recognise his description and I recognise that all too often too many children in schools don’t have the opportunities that others may have in order to look and see the breadth of opportunities available to them. Our friend describes careers in law but there are, of course, careers elsewhere that would be equally as inspiring for children and young people. Can I say that secondary schools are required to provide a careers and world of work programme, which does include work-focused experiences? But I think the point that the Member makes is a powerful one and I will look at the guidance that is available to schools on careers and the world of work to ensure that that guidance does ensure that we provide children in school with not only the opportunity to understand this but also provide opportunities for people to visit schools and to inspire children to reach their full potential.

David Melding (Conservative, South Wales Central)

Minister, can I commend the Welsh Government for promoting the Careers Wales mark. I think it’s an excellent initiative and it’s I think now attracting the membership of most schools in Wales and leading to more informed career choices and identification of necessary skills for students as they prepare to enter the world of work. But I’m told there have been problems in the last few years with effective placements and this would also affect people from outside coming into schools to talk about the world of work, and that looking for effective placements has been crowded out of the curriculum. I think schools do their students a disservice if they don’t emphasise the importance of really effective placements and the vision of the world of work that they can give to students.

Alun Davies (Labour, Blaenau Gwent)

I recognise the difficulties that the Member describes. I will say that Careers Wales now have something like 60 school-employer Business Class partnerships established. Certainly, a part of the work in developing the new curriculum is to open up these sorts of opportunities and these sorts of conversations within schools and for pupils and between schools and employers. If the Member has any individual issues that he wishes to raise with me, if he would put them in writing, then I’d certainly be very happy to reply more fully to those individual concerns and place that correspondence in the library for all Members to see.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Minister, in the sort of reverse role from my colleague from Neath, I recently met with the Institute of Mechanical Engineers who had a programme that was encouraging teachers to actually go out into the workplace and gain understanding and knowledge of the engineering and STEM areas, funded by the Institute of Mechanical Engineers as well. Will you be looking at such schemes to ensure that we’ve got teachers in the classroom who can then be enthused to actually drive the agenda forward for more STEM and more engineering graduates and people taking up those professions?

Alun Davies (Labour, Blaenau Gwent)

Very much so. The Cabinet Secretary is in her place and has heard the point that you make and she will reflect on that in terms of the wider issues in terms of teacher training and teacher support. I think that’s a very important aspect of what we’re seeking to achieve in terms of leadership of schools as well. The focus on leadership that the Cabinet Secretary’s tried to create since her appointment has been for some of these different reasons. I very much welcome that the Institute of Mechanical Engineers are providing this support to science teachers. And, of course, providing and strengthening the place of the school in the wider community in terms of the world of business and the economy is absolutely what we would seek to do.

Vikki Howells (Labour, Cynon Valley)

2. Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on Welsh Government plans to support lunch and fun clubs in primary schools during the school summer holidays? OAQ(5)0063(EDU)

Joyce Watson (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

5. What is the Welsh Government doing to support school children during the summer holidays? OAQ(5)0077(EDU)

Kirsty Williams (Liberal Democrat, Brecon and Radnorshire)

Thank you. Presiding Officer, I understand that you have given permission for question 2 and question 5 from Joyce Watson to be grouped.

We have made £500,000 available to allow an extended roll-out of the lunch and fun clubs in the summer holidays. The Welsh Local Government Association will continue to administer the clubs, building on the very impressive pilot schemes already delivered by Food Cardiff and participating local authorities.

Vikki Howells (Labour, Cynon Valley)

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. Many groups including the Trussell Trust have identified the issue of holiday hunger, whereby those children eligible for free school meals and their parents often go without food during the long summer holidays. Indeed, the charity says demand for its 35 food banks in Wales peaks during July and August. This rolling out of funding for lunch and fun clubs across Wales can have a crucial role to play in tackling the scandal of Welsh children going hungry, but how will the Welsh Government ensure that support reaches those who need it most?

Kirsty Williams (Liberal Democrat, Brecon and Radnorshire)

Thank you very much. I recognise the situation that food banks have been reporting. In my own constituency, for instance, last summer, both Llandrindod Wells and Knighton, which has an independent food bank, provided a summer scheme to assist families in those areas. The food and fun schemes are demand led and first require an expression of interest from local authorities. Once this has been received, the WLGA will contact the local authority and work together with them to determine which schools would be appropriate to host a food and fun club.

Whilst the scheme does indeed offer a healthy free breakfast and lunch, which attempts to tackle holiday hunger, I am keen for the focus of the scheme to be on the enriching activities around those meals, so that it offers learners who attend an opportunity to participate in physical activity, in visits and in learning opportunities that would not be available to them otherwise. We do know from the initial feedback from the pilot that the scheme, where it has been run already, has done a lot to address the issue of learning loss, a concept that we know exists, where many children fall backwards over the long summer holidays and schools then have to catch up when the new school term starts again in September. So, this is not just about food, it is about addressing issues of learning loss, physical activity and enrichment activities for children who perhaps would not have them available to them in other cases.

Joyce Watson (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

I’m really pleased with this scheme and whilst I recognise that £500,000 isn’t a huge amount of money, it’s money that’s very welcome, and I see that that is for this year and this year alone. So, my question is that I hope you’ll be able to continue this through the course of this Assembly. You talk about the continued enrichment that children within communities enjoy through these fun clubs so that they don’t slip back and lose all of that momentum that was gained in their school term. Will you also look at isolated communities where there isn’t an awful lot happening because of the nature of their rurality, so that those young children get an opportunity just the same as those who live in other areas?

Kirsty Williams (Liberal Democrat, Brecon and Radnorshire)

I would hope that we will have expressions of interest to expand the scheme from local authorities across Wales. What’s really important is if the local authorities who currently don’t already operate this scheme—and there are a number across south Wales and a couple in north Wales who already do—if other local authorities have an interest in this, then they need to let the WLGA and us know that they want to participate, so that we can then identify the communities that will benefit from it most. So, if there are individual schools in people’s constituencies that are interested in being a part of this scheme, then, again, I would urge them to get in touch with their local education authority to show an interest so that we can make sure that as many children as possible who will benefit from this have the opportunity. The pilots have been very successful and it is my anticipation that we expand that success and open it up to as many Welsh children as possible, regardless of whether they live in urban areas or whether they live in rural areas. But the emphasis is on local authorities to come forward and I would urge them to do so.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Andrew R.T. Davies.

Andrew RT Davies (Conservative, South Wales Central)

Thank you, Presiding Officer. It’s never a good idea to put a sweet in your mouth just before you ask a question [Laughter.] This initiative that the Government has brought forward, will it be part of the childcare offer that is being made available, because it has been alluded to at committee stage that schools obviously might form part of the facility through the school holidays? I appreciate this initiative is only funded for one year, but will it be looked upon as part of the offer that the Government is making to increase childcare provision across Wales to meet its manifesto commitment?

Kirsty Williams (Liberal Democrat, Brecon and Radnorshire)

As you will be aware, Andrew—and if only putting a sweet in your mouth before the question was the only bad idea you ever had or, indeed, told the Chamber about—[Laughter.] If I could just say, we work very closely across the portfolios to ensure that there is a joined-up approach to this. The food and fun clubs operating out of schools are potentially affecting all children in Wales. The childcare offer is about an opportunity for our very youngest children. These clubs are open to primary school-age children and secondary school-age children, so whilst there may be some crossover, it is not intended to be a part of that scheme; it is above and beyond the childcare offer that will be available.

Siân Gwenllian (Plaid Cymru, Arfon)

There is another way of looking at this, of course, and there is a strong argument for restructuring the school year and distributing holidays in a more balanced way across the year. Doing so over the year, rather than having one big block over the summer, would assist in improving attainment levels within schools and make it easier for working parents. Many experts argue that children, particularly boys, from deprived backgrounds do find it difficult to maintain information over lengthy brakes and that they could benefit from briefer school holidays that happen more often. When Plaid Cymru first raised this issue, your party and your spokesperson for education at that time, Jenny Randerson, was very supportive of it. So, what assessment have you made of this proposals of restructuring the school term? And if it hasn’t happened, will you commit to carrying out such an assessment and then report back to the Assembly on that?

Kirsty Williams (Liberal Democrat, Brecon and Radnorshire)

Thank you for that question. No assessment has been carried out since I took over this job, although there has been an independent report and some research done on restructuring the school week—for instance, having a four-day school week, allowing for one day at the end of the week to be for teacher preparation and training purposes—but nothing has been done to look at the overall academic year. I absolutely recognise this principle that, for some children, that long summer break does lead to the concept, as I said earlier, of learning loss, and that’s why these food and fun clubs will not just focus on the issue of holiday hunger, but actually look to ensure that they—and the pilots suggest that they have been successful in doing so—address that concept of learning loss, especially with regard to literacy, numeracy and oracy. One headteacher spoke to me recently and said that if it wasn’t for the fact that her high school remained open during the summer, many of those young people would not have an adult to talk to for most of the day and their oracy levels dropped considerably. So, we know that this is an issue. This policy intervention is hoping to successfully attack and solve a number of problems.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

I now call on the party spokespeople to ask questions of the Cabinet Secretary. The Welsh Conservatives’ spokesperson, Darren Millar.

Darren Millar (Conservative, Clwyd West)

Diolch, Lywydd. Cabinet Secretary, the Programme for International Student Assessment results showed that Wales has an education system that is lagging behind the rest of the UK and that we’re in the bottom of the international league table for literacy, maths and science. You and I both know that that isn’t good enough, and want to make a difference. Science, in particular, has slipped back, with PISA scores declining in each and every test since 2006. What action are you taking to reverse the decline in science in Wales?

Kirsty Williams (Liberal Democrat, Brecon and Radnorshire)

Thank you, Darren. You quite rightly say that neither you nor I believe that our performance in the PISA tests are good enough, and our performance in science has been particularly disappointing, especially our performance in science from our higher performing children, and our lack of representation on an OECD average level 6, level 5, and level 4. And you will be aware that, earlier this month, I announced the creation of a network of excellence for science and technology. That builds upon my previous announcement for mathematics. The network will look to ensure that our science teachers are the best that they can be. It will include working and connecting schools with higher education institutes, where we have some outstanding science departments and technology departments, and also ensuring that children’s experience of science lower down the curriculum, in their primary schools, where people often begin to form prejudices about studying subjects of this nature, can be addressed. So, it’s a comprehensive package to improve science teaching, and the quality of science teaching, across the board.

Darren Millar (Conservative, Clwyd West)

I’m glad that you’ve been able to shed a little bit more light on the national network of excellence for science and technology, because, of course, it was an announcement that you didn’t make in this Chamber—you made it in a press release, and we still haven’t received a written statement or a letter from you, as Assembly Members, to inform us about this important development. But, nevertheless, I do welcome the extra effort that the Welsh Government is putting in on that front.

But, as you quite rightly said, in your response to me there, we need to raise the performance of science teachers, and have high-quality science teachers. But you know, and I know, that your predecessors presided over a 45 per cent fall in the number of people qualifying to teach science between 2010 and 2015. And, in fact, that fall was greatest in biology, with over 67 per cent in terms of the reduction in the numbers qualifying. So, what action are you specifically taking to address the needs of the teaching workforce in Wales, to make sure that we’ve got sufficient numbers of science teachers in the future?

Kirsty Williams (Liberal Democrat, Brecon and Radnorshire)

You are right: quality of teaching is key to tackling this agenda, and it will be the main focus of the work of the network of excellence. I am currently reviewing the graduate incentives that we have available to attract people into the teaching profession, as well as looking at whether we can refresh our graduate entry programme, so that people who perhaps have had a career in science, or technology, who would then want to move into teaching at a later date. So those are currently being reviewed at the moment, so that we can do what we can to attract our best science graduates into a career in teaching.

This is an issue that needs to be tackled, and it can be particularly acute through the medium of Welsh, as well as individual science subjects, and that then precludes the opportunity for students who want to study science through the medium of Welsh from being able to study three separate sciences, rather than being told they only have to do double-award science. It’s one of the issues we have to tackle, but it is an important one.

Darren Millar (Conservative, Clwyd West)

I’m very pleased that you are reviewing the incentives available. We all know that, if you want to go into a career in teaching science in England, the bursaries are much more generous than they are here in Wales. In fact, if you want to be a physics teacher in England, you can get a bursary of up to £30,000, compared to getting as little as just £11,000 here in Wales.

I wondered if I could pin you down a little bit, and ask you what the timescale for that review is going to be, given that people want to be making these decisions and planning ahead, particularly with other changes in the HE system, as it were, in train. And, also, what action are you taking to inspire those younger children in science? We all know that there’s been a reduction in the grant to Techniquest recently, in the budget. Now, that’s for understandable reasons, in terms of budget pressures, but what are you going to do to ensure that inspiring places like Techniquest still have the ability to reach out and engage people—young people of primary school age and secondary school age—in the future?

Kirsty Williams (Liberal Democrat, Brecon and Radnorshire)

Well, thank you, Darren. I hope to make an announcement on the review of graduate incentives shortly. What’s really important is to understand that, if the Welsh Government is going to put money into training these teachers, they don’t then teach somewhere else. We have to ensure we get good value for Welsh investments, and that those teachers then end up teaching Welsh children in Welsh schools and not using those skills somewhere else. I’m confident, having met the chief executive of Techniquest, that despite the reduction in grant from the Welsh Government, they will continue to offer an ambitious outreach programme from the centre here in Cardiff, and there are many organisations, charitable organisations, alongside Techniquest that continue to deliver very good, very practical and very exciting science talks within schools. I’m particularly interested, and will be making an announcement to this Chamber later on, in how we plan to capitalise on what was being said earlier about the world of work, to be able to develop links between schools and industry. The science and technology industries are a perfect example of demonstrating to a student that if you take and excel in science, these are the kinds of careers that you can go on to do in later life, and we will making an announcement of resources to support that work.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

UKIP spokesperson, Michelle Brown.

Michelle Brown (UKIP, North Wales)

Thank you, Presiding Officer. Does the Cabinet Secretary agree with me that if schools in Wales had more teachers on their full-time staff, they would not have to spend so much money on hiring supply staff?

Kirsty Williams (Liberal Democrat, Brecon and Radnorshire)

Obviously, substantive posts, with teachers that know their students and know their classrooms and schools well, is the preferable way of staffing our schools. However, what we also know is that in a self-improving school system, we want some of our teachers to move around institutions so that they can share their best practice. There will be times when it is perfectly legitimate to have a planned absence from work for training purposes—a secondment, for instance, for teachers to develop their Welsh language skills—but we also need to make sure that we’re managing those planned absences and that schools follow Welsh Government guidance. There are, of course, occasions when staff will be sick, just like all of us sometimes get sick, and, again, schools need to manage that appropriately.

Michelle Brown (UKIP, North Wales)

Okay. Thank you for that answer. In light of the comments from the director of the teachers’ union ATL Cymru that a substantial proportion of the money spent on supply staff goes to line the pockets of agencies, and that all parties should work together to develop a system that provides better value for money, better rewards for supply teachers, and above all, better education provision for our children, when will the Cabinet Secretary invite me and the education spokesmen of the other parties to work together with her on plans to deal with this problem?

Kirsty Williams (Liberal Democrat, Brecon and Radnorshire)

My predecessor, Huw Lewis, actually set up a task and finish group to look at the issue of supply teaching. That group’s work has come to an end. The report has recently been sent to me. I am considering the content of that report and a way forward, and I am always very happy to meet with opposition spokespeople, or indeed people from the backbenches of other political parties, to talk about any good ideas they have to tackle this problem. Supply teaching is an important issue. We do know that sometimes supply teachers are absolutely necessary in classrooms, but we need to make sure that they are well trained, they are properly remunerated, there are proper child safeguarding issues that have been addressed, and that children’s learning is not impacted by having a supply teacher in the classroom, and that can be overcome by great planning and leadership within individual schools.

Michelle Brown (UKIP, North Wales)

At the end of 2015, the Labour Government said:

It is important to remember that the employment of supply teachers does not fall within the powers currently devolved to the Welsh Government which means we are unable to set pay rates or compel local authorities to operate pools of supply teachers.’

If she gets these powers as part of further devolution, would the Cabinet Secretary impose a set of rules on schools for dealing with the issue of supply teachers?

Kirsty Williams (Liberal Democrat, Brecon and Radnorshire)

As I said, we’re not waiting for the Wales Bill and the devolution of teachers’ pay and conditions to address this issue. A task and finish group was set up by the previous Minister and I am currently reflecting on the work of that group and will make a statement shortly on how we will take this agenda forward. But I am keen that teachers’ pay and conditions be devolved to this institution. Let’s be absolutely clear that there is no such thing as a national set of pay and conditions. When we say we want teachers’ pay and conditions to stay in London, what we’re saying is we want an English system here for Wales, because Scotland already has a different system. I’m very keen to be able to develop, in conjunction with the teaching profession, a made-in-Wales solution to issues around teachers’ pay and conditions. The First Minister has made it very, very clear that no teacher in Wales will lose out, but this is an opportunity to align teachers’ pay and conditions with our national mission of education reform and education excellence.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Sian Gwenllian.

Siân Gwenllian (Plaid Cymru, Arfon)

Thank you. My questions are to the Minister for the Welsh language. Last Friday, you appeared on the media and said that you believed that the Welsh Language (Wales) Measure 2011 was too complex and that we needed to review the way that language standards are drawn up and implemented. Can you expand a little on that view?

Alun Davies (Labour, Blaenau Gwent)

Thank you very much. I think that I was clear enough in discussing several times in this place, and in other places, that I believe that it is time to review the current legislative framework that we have, and the standards are part of that. I’ve also been clear that the priority at present is to look at the language strategy and legislation will flow from that. I will be publishing a White Paper on these issues in the spring.

Siân Gwenllian (Plaid Cymru, Arfon)

Thank you. Of course, there is nothing wrong with looking at the way in which legislation is working and to simplify it if possible, but we must be guarded because, to date, there may be a question about the willingness and resolve of Government to implement the Measure. So, it’s important that the aim of any review is to simplify the implementation of the legislation rather than weakening that legislation. One could argue that there is room to strengthen and expand the legislation. So, one must ask why only one set of standards has been brought forward in six years. The process may be bureaucratic, but I do think that there is more than just bureaucracy behind this slow pace. For example, it was the Government that decided to reject the draft standards tabled by the commissioner, and it’s the Government that’s cut the commissioner’s budget by 32 per cent in real terms over a period of four years. Do you think that one set of standards in six years is sufficient and when will you, as a Government, publish a timetable that will lead to implementing standards in care, housing, water companies, telecommunications, train and bus companies, and gas and electricity companies, and so on and so forth?

Alun Davies (Labour, Blaenau Gwent)

Since I’ve been Minister the only delay that there’s been was from the Plaid Cymru bid to change the standards that were placed before the Assembly on higher education. So, I do take your point, but I’m also entirely clear that there’s no will to slow the pace on this or not to implement the legislation. But, I don’t think that legislation is the kind of legislative framework that we will need in future. I want to ensure that we have legislation that will ensure that we do have the right way to implement policies to support the Welsh language wherever we want to use the Welsh language, and I will be doing that through a White Paper in spring.

Siân Gwenllian (Plaid Cymru, Arfon)

You mentioned action there and the Welsh in education strategic plans are one way of taking action. These have now been introduced by all the education authorities in Wales, but apparently they are disappointing to say the least. I don’t need to remind you how crucial it is that we increase Welsh-medium education if we are to reach the ambition of 1 million Welsh speakers by 2050. This was emphasised again today by the Welsh Language Commissioner, who was also calling for a radical chance to the education system if this objective is to be attained.

How will you support these local authorities in strengthening these plans from where they currently stand? Will you consider giving Estyn a role as they oversee education authorities and inspect them? They may have a role in monitoring and enhancing the Welsh-medium provision as part of their core work.

Alun Davies (Labour, Blaenau Gwent)

I’m very happy to consider a role for Estyn if that will be of use to us during this process. I will say this about the WESPs: we have received plans here and I am considering those plans at the moment. When I’ve had an opportunity to look at them in detail, and when I feel that I am ready to make a statement, I will do so on how we are going to move forward. I hope that I will be in a situation to do that over the coming month.

Mike Hedges (Labour, Swansea East)

3. Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on the education consortium covering the Swansea area? OAQ(5)0061(EDU)

Kirsty Williams (Liberal Democrat, Brecon and Radnorshire)

Thank you, Mike. ERW are making positive progress, as confirmed by their Estyn inspection. I’m confident that, while there’s room for improvement, they continue to play an important role in delivering improved outcomes for learners. We will continue to work closely with them to make best use of resources and to maximise their effort and their impact.

Mike Hedges (Labour, Swansea East)

Can I thank the Cabinet Secretary for that response? And can I ask the Cabinet Secretary why she believes that the ERW consortium area is more suitable for education improvement within the Swansea area than either the former West Glamorgan area or the Swansea city region?

Kirsty Williams (Liberal Democrat, Brecon and Radnorshire)

Well, Mike, it will be important to review the national model for regional working in light of any announcements that my Cabinet colleague, Mark Drakeford, will make with regard to local government reform. It will be important to look at the current status of the regional educational consortia and how best we can continue to deliver school improvement services, and whether there are actually other aspects of education that could be more effectively and strategically delivered by local authorities working together. As I said, I will be working very closely with my local government colleague as this Government takes forward its reform programme for local government to ensure that the role of educational consortia is closely aligned with that work.

Suzy Davies (Conservative, South Wales West)

ERW’s purpose is to deliver a single, consistent and integrated professional school improvement service. What evidence has ERW given you that it has improved teaching and learning of modern foreign languages? And, if you’re able to take this question, what evidence has it given to you that it’s improved Welsh teaching in English-medium schools in Swansea, helping build a more positive attitude both in schools and in the local authority towards the Welsh language?

Kirsty Williams (Liberal Democrat, Brecon and Radnorshire)

Suzy, there are two important ways that I as Minister view the performance of each of our regional consortia. The first is Estyn’s independent inspections of the consortia. With regard to ERW, Estyn’s outcomes were that their support for school improvement was good, their leadership was good, their partnerships were good, and their resource management was good. However, improving quality was judged to be adequate by Estyn. As a follow-up to the Estyn inspection, I met with all regional consortia as part of my challenge-and-review meeting, where we look to see what we could do together, as Welsh Government and the regional consortia, to address any shortcomings in consortia performance and to drive forward improvement. I admit that modern foreign languages and the quality of Welsh language education in English-medium schools was not discussed at those meetings, but I will write to the Member with the evidence that she wants to receive.

David Lloyd (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

Following on from Sian Gwenllian’s question to Alun Davies a little earlier, I too have been looking at the WESPs in the ERW area, and particularly in the Swansea, Neath Port Talbot and Bridgend areas. I have to say that the targets proposed as part of those plans are extremely disappointing. I don’t think we can overemphasise the undermining that’s happening here. If you’re expecting to achieve a million Welsh speakers by halfway through this century, then you truly have to reform these plans and strategies because, at the end of the day, there’s virtually no vision here in enhancing the capacity of Welsh-medium primary schools in these areas. I would urge you most urgently, Minister, to review and change that.

Kirsty Williams (Liberal Democrat, Brecon and Radnorshire)

Thank you for that. As my colleague said earlier, we will be looking at the adequacy of the WESPS that have come forward. This Government has ambitious plans for expanding Welsh-medium education and ensuring the quality of that education is the best that it can be. It’s simply not just about being there, Dai; it’s about ensuring that it is good quality when it is there. We shouldn’t accept second best if we have decided to educate our children through the medium of Welsh. We also have to ensure that there is adequate provision for those parents who want to make that choice, and we have a job of work to do to encourage more parents to see the benefits of positively choosing a bilingual or a Welsh-medium education for their children. So, there is much to be done, both at local authority level and Welsh Government level, for the ambitious plans that we have for Welsh-medium education for our children.

Lynne Neagle (Labour, Torfaen)

4. Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on post-16 education provision in Torfaen? OAQ(5)0073(EDU)

Alun Davies (Labour, Blaenau Gwent)

Local authorities are responsible for sixth-form education. When proposing change they must comply with the school organisation code. An outline business case for a new post-16 centre in Torfaen has been approved. We await a full business case, and I should say that capital funding applications are treated without prejudice to statutory proposals.

Lynne Neagle (Labour, Torfaen)

Thank you, Minister. You’ll be aware of unique challenges faced by young people in north Torfaen, who’ve had no access to post-16 education locally since 2008, with some young people having to try to access sixth forms at other schools or many having to take a long bus journey to Crosskeys college, which is two bus rides there and two bus rides back every day. As you’ve highlighted, Torfaen council are developing plans for a post-16 centre to serve all young people in the borough, and I’m very grateful for the support of your predecessor, Julie James, in helping to progress this vital project. Can I ask, Minister, if you’ll take this opportunity to restate the Welsh Government’s commitment to addressing this injustice in Torfaen as a matter of urgency, and what assurances can you give that you will ensure that all Welsh Government decisions on the final business case are taken as quickly as possible?

Alun Davies (Labour, Blaenau Gwent)

I’m grateful to my good friend and neighbour for tempting me into an appalling indiscretion again. She will be very aware that I cannot comment on any proposals for change that might be under consideration by local authorities; these proposals will, of course, be or may be referred to Welsh Ministers for some decisions, and we recognise that. I’m aware that Torfaen is considering this matter, and I think the executive will be considering it, in fact, in the next week or so. Let me say this: I’ve seen the benefits of the post-16 changes that we’ve seen in my own constituency in Blaenau Gwent and I would want to see those benefits extended to students elsewhere in the country as well. I think we need to ensure that we have consistency of opportunity, consistency of service and consistency of provision. Consistency doesn’t always imply uniformity, of course, and there will be different options for different parts of the country and for different areas. But, let me say this: we are aware of the decisions that are being taken by Torfaen and we’re aware of the debate and discussion that’s been taking place with Torfaen. We’ve got a good relationship with the local authority, which has got an excellent new leader now in Torfaen, and I can look forward to continuing to work with the local authority in Torfaen for a conclusion to these discussions.

Mohammad Asghar (Conservative, South Wales East)

The new sixth-form centre in Cwmbran will replace all English-medium school sixth forms in Torfaen by September 2019. What discussion has the Cabinet Secretary had with the Torfaen council about helping young people with transport costs to access the new centre in view of the Welsh Government decision to scrap discount bus travel schemes in Torfaen and also in Wales? Thank you.

Alun Davies (Labour, Blaenau Gwent)

I must say I am somewhat surprised by the question. Members should be aware that the Welsh Government are constantly in conversation with local authorities about these matters. We have been in conversation with Torfaen about these matters for some time now, and that’s a matter of public record. We will continue to have our discussions and conversations with the excellent local authority in Torfaen, and we will continue that until we reach a happy conclusion.

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

6. Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on pupil engagement with the education system? OAQ(5)0069(EDU)

Kirsty Williams (Liberal Democrat, Brecon and Radnorshire)

Thank you, Janet. Engagement and well-being are important factors in supporting children to do well in school. Recognising this, the 2016-17 Estyn remit commissioned a review into the effectiveness of pupil participation and production of a guide to help schools involve pupils in meaningful debate. This report is now available on Estyn’s website.

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

Thank you. One thousand and five pupils are now registered at pupil referral units in Wales, and the number of pupils increase in each age group from about 11 to 15. Over 51 per cent of those registered at a single PRU and over 40 per cent dually registered are around 15. Now, I know from my own experiences in my constituency, where I’m dealing with cases, that, sometimes, pupil referral units seem exclusive—they don’t appear to be inclusive, and children feel quite disenfranchised from the education system. How are you working with education authorities in terms of resource so that we can actually have in Wales a more inclusive education system that recognises the strengths, the weaknesses and the ambitions of all our children in today’s society and allows them to feel part of our mainstream education system, and allows them to be educated along with their friends and their peers?

Kirsty Williams (Liberal Democrat, Brecon and Radnorshire)

Janet, you raise a very, very serious point. I want to ensure that I preside over an inclusive education system, and a system that meets the needs of all children regardless of where they live, regardless of the language of choice through which they study or, indeed, any additional learning needs or challenges they have in accessing their education. Estyn had some very serious things to say about quality in many of our pupil referral units and children who are educated in settings other than at school. You will be aware that Ann Keane, the former chief executive of Estyn, is working with the Welsh Government to address the findings of that report to do what we can to improve pupils’ experience in PRUs but also in other settings where increasingly we find schools or local authorities placing children if they are not able to maintain a place in full-time education. The Member is absolutely right to raise the issue of the education of these children. There is more to be done, and I will be using some of the additional resources made available to me by the Cabinet Secretary for finance to work on this particular area.

John Griffiths (Labour, Newport East)

Cabinet Secretary, I wonder if you would agree that the prospects for good pupil engagement are greatly enhanced if parents and the wider community are engaged closely with their local schools, and, if so, whether you will work to devise a mechanism or system by which we can be confident that there will be good-quality community-focused schools consistently delivered right across Wales.

Kirsty Williams (Liberal Democrat, Brecon and Radnorshire)

John, you will be aware—because we have discussed this previously—that our twenty-first century schools programme will only gain a sign-off by Welsh Ministers if there is a significant community element in all of those proposals that are brought forward. We know, from looking at the evaluation of the pupil deprivation grant, that with schools that use that grant effectively, much of that grant is used on building strong relationships between families and the school to get buy-in into their children’s education. On the announcement that we have made with regard to food and fun clubs in the summer, one of the most successful elements of those clubs is that, on the final day, parents come into the food and fun club to participate in the lunch and activities in the afternoon, again to bind parents into those programmes. So, we are working as a Welsh Government on a number of fronts—both on the physicality of the building of the school, as well as the ethos of what goes on in those buildings—to build strong relationships between parents and schools, because we know that that is when children do best. They don’t even have to go to school to be a focus for Welsh Government. We have spent considerable resource last year, and we will do so again this year, on developing resources for parents to help their children get ready for life in school, and what they can do as parents to make the transition from home into school as successful as it can be. So, we will continue to work on a number of programmes to support families to support their children be the best that they can be in school.

Nick Ramsay (Conservative, Monmouth)

7. Will the Cabinet Secretary provide an update on the 21st Century Schools programme? OAQ(5)0070(EDU)

Kirsty Williams (Liberal Democrat, Brecon and Radnorshire)

Thank you, Nick. Band A of the twenty-first century schools and education programme will see an investment of more than £1.4 billion over the five years of the programme, which will come to an end in 2019. To date, funding has been approved for 127 of the 150 projects in the programme, and 102 of those are either under construction at present or have been completed.

Nick Ramsay (Conservative, Monmouth)

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. Monmouthshire County Council has worked closely with the Welsh Government to immeasurably improve, initially, primary schools in Monmouthshire, and Monmouth Comprehensive School is now being rebuilt, with other comprehensives having to wait. There continues to be a real problem with the presence of asbestos in schools across Wales. How are you going to ensure that that twenty-first century schools programme funding is best targeted, so that real issues such as asbestos are right at the front of the queue of being dealt with and are prioritised by the Welsh Government and local authorities across Wales?

Kirsty Williams (Liberal Democrat, Brecon and Radnorshire)

Thank you, Nick. I am glad that you have recognised the close working between the Welsh Government and Monmouthshire council. Funding of around £93.4 million has been committed for Monmouthshire, with the Welsh Government contributing £45.6 million towards the sums of the new buildings in your constituency, which is a significant amount of money. The state of a school building is one of the factors that prioritises placement for a school building programme within the programme. So, the state of the school building and its state of disrepair is an important factor. It should be remembered that, when it is undisturbed and is kept in situ and adequately managed, asbestos does not pose a risk, but, as I said, individual local authorities carry out a survey and Welsh Government also assist in that process to look at the state of school buildings, and that is an important factor in gaining approval for a twenty-first century school bid.

Adam Price (Plaid Cymru, Carmarthen East and Dinefwr)

8. When will the Cabinet Secretary publish plans, in accordance with the Diamond Review recommendation, to incentivise graduates to work or return to work in Wales? OAQ(5)0068(EDU)

Kirsty Williams (Liberal Democrat, Brecon and Radnorshire)

Thank you, Adam. I published the Welsh Government’s response to all of the Diamond review recommendations on 22 November. I invited anyone with specific proposals on incentivisation to respond to the Government’s consultation. That consultation closes on 14 February. I will then need to consider the responses before I outline next steps.

Adam Price (Plaid Cymru, Carmarthen East and Dinefwr)

I’m grateful to the Cabinet Secretary for her response. Has the Government commissioned any research? For example, there are a great many programmes that have this core aim of attracting graduates or retaining graduates within their home nation once they graduate across the world. I’m aware that over 40 states in the United States use different kinds of debt relief, most often—that’s the tool most prominently used in the United States. Of course, there are economic and social benefits to those kinds of programmes. So, could we have some sort of study that would give us an overview so that we can choose the best option for Wales?

Kirsty Williams (Liberal Democrat, Brecon and Radnorshire)

Thank you. I think it’s important to point out that Welsh Government is not averse to looking at using incentives to attract people to Wales. We talked earlier about teacher training incentives, and my Cabinet colleague recently announced a new programme that will ensure that student nurses have access to a nursing bursary, which is not available across the border in England, if they commit to continuing to a period of two-year work post qualification in the Welsh NHS.

As I set out in my response to Diamond, I’m keen to work across Government and with others inside this building, outside this building, to look at this issue. However, I should say that Diamond was clear that the best impact and value for Government investment is to support students when they need it the most, rather than continuing to do what we were doing, in effect, which was writing off loans for graduates. We will continue to offer a £1,500 write-off for all Welsh students when they begin to pay off their debts, but I am committed to ensuring a stable and sustainable system of higher education finance that delivers for students, universities and the public purse. But I’m open to practical, sustainable and affordable suggestions of how we may be able to use a system of incentives in the way that you suggest.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

I thank the Cabinet Secretary.

3. 3. Questions to the Assembly Commission

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

No questions were tabled under the next item.

4. 4. 90-second Statements

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

That brings us, therefore, to item 4, the 90-second statements. Janet Finch-Saunders.

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

Diolch, Lywydd. Assembly Members, I am blessed to represent a constituency that is home to Snowdonia national park, providing a unique visitor experience, a safe natural habitat for much of our nation’s rare flora and fauna, all whilst protecting and enhancing our natural beauty and cultural heritage, and its own local development plan. A fifth of the park is statutorily protected for its wildlife and geological interest, which includes 107 sites of special scientific interest, totalling over 62,500 hectares, and 21 national nature reserves, boasting some of the most important natural and semi-natural terrestrial and coastal ecosystems in Great Britain. The park attracts thousands of visitors to enjoy its amazing landscape and the variety of activities. More than 360,000 walkers climb the summit of Snowdon every year, and the park is one of the top destinations in the world for outdoor activities and adventure sports. Overall, our national parks account for £557 million of GVA. However, I am acutely aware of just how much the managing bodies of our parks have to deal with increasingly complex and varied issues at a time of diminishing resources. In welcoming the fact that the Welsh Government has embarked on a process of reviewing designated landscape areas in Wales, we welcome the forthcoming report and we support those working on it with your aims. But I firmly—

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Can I thank the Member? Hefin David.

Hefin David (Labour, Caerphilly)

On 4 November, along with hundreds of others, I attended the funeral in Ystrad Mynach of my constituent Cyril Thomas, who passed away on 12 October last year. Cyril was a former assistant headteacher of Lewis Boys School in my constituency, where he taught both history and religious education. The brother of former champion boxer Eddie Thomas, Cyril worked as a miner before becoming a teacher and was president of the school during some difficult times for the education profession in the 1980s and early 1990s.

However, Cyril used his force of personality and care for his pupils to make a lasting and positive difference to their lives, something for which they will forever be grateful. You only have to look at the number of tributes that were made on social media to Cyril by former friends, colleagues and pupils to see how popular and appreciated he was. Indeed, shortly after his passing, a tribute was made to him in the Western Mail. It’s clear Cyril appreciated that the art of teaching and learning was about more than just exam results. It was about the wider school experience, earning students’ respect and, in turn, giving it back to them, whatever their background.

Cyril was a keen singer and lay preacher outside of school and, in his later life, wrote a weekly column in the local newspaper about Ystrad Mynach community life. Cyril will be sadly missed, but he inspired a generation of children. His memory will live on in the local community and in all that his former pupils have achieved.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Bethan Jenkins.

Bethan Sayed (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

I’d like to use my first 90-second statement to pay tribute to Rebecca Evans, who was killed in a car accident on the M4 at Port Talbot last year, along with her eight-month unborn baby. Many Members in the Chamber will know Rebecca through her work as Shelter Cymru’s education and youth officer. In fact, I met her many times to discuss my financial education Bill. She and her husband, Alex, were on their way to work at Shelter Cymru when that crash happened, and their two-year-old son was also seriously hurt.

Rebecca was only 27, but, in her five years working for Shelter Cymru, she had built its education and youth information service, which, in turn, has helped thousands of young people to understand the practical steps they need to take to live independently. Her devastated colleagues have said that, without her passion and commitment to young people, many would have faced homelessness and an uncertain future.

She also campaigned with young people for the inclusion of practical leaving-home support to be included within the Welsh curriculum. One of Rebecca’s last pieces of work was with Swansea pupil referral unit, helping young people to gain an Agored Cymru qualification in personal and social education in homelessness and housing, a unit she designed herself. The unit workers told Rebecca that her determination got them all through this qualification, and she would not give up on anyone and would always find a way to make things work.

Rebecca, from Bridgend, was part of Encore, an English-and-Welsh-speaking stage school, aimed at budding young stars from age four to 18. She was also an accomplished dancer. I think all Members will agree that Wales will be poorer for Rebecca’s passing.

5. 5. Welsh Conservatives Debate: NHS Winter Preparedness

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The next item on our agenda is the Welsh Conservatives’ debate, and I call on Angela Burns to move the motion.

Angela Burns (Conservative, Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire)

Diolch, Lywydd. I’m pleased to have the opportunity to open this debate today. Of course, since tabling this motion, the issue of winter pressures has hit the headlines in both Wales and England. And, to be truthful, I would expect there are concerns across all home nations. We are seeking an update report from you, Cabinet Secretary, on how you think the Welsh health service is coping and how you have evidenced the views that you might have. I’m very conscious that, year after year, health boards promise that they are ready for winter pressures, yet, year after year, we have a situation where people are struggling to give and receive the correct and safe levels of service.

As I said yesterday, having a public debate in response to very public concerns—and you only have to look at the front page of today’s ‘Western Mail’ to understand the pressures staff feel they are having to operate under—. Having that public debate in no way casts a negative light on staff within the NHS. This winter, as in previous winters, many of them have gone over and above the call of duty. They have stood in for colleagues struck down with flu, they have dealt with worried parents of frightened young children suffering from bronchiolitis, a winter perennial, and they have held the line with our more elderly and vulnerable members of society for whom winter can be such a trial. I would like to thank all the excellent staff who work in our hospitals, surgeries, nursing homes and ambulances. You are all a credit to your profession, and the fact that we are debating this issue is by no means a reflection on your abilities or dedication to your jobs. You’re all working under immense pressure and, having been a reluctant but regular user of the NHS in recent years, I cannot speak highly enough of the work that you do.

Cabinet Secretary, the Royal College of Physicians were among a great many organisations, including the Royal College of General Practitioners, the Royal College of Emergency Medicine, the Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health, the Royal College of Nursing—and I could go on with the list—who essentially raised the same concerns about readiness, about staffing levels, numbers of beds available, training and funding during written and oral evidence to the health committee. The Royal College of Physicians stated that:

The challenges facing health boards as they prepare for winter are complex. They reflect wider pressures on the NHS and social care.’

And they went on to say that:

Health boards are operating in an under-funded, under-doctored and overstretched context.’

Given the reports that we are receiving in our constituencies, the stories emerging in the media and concerns being raised by a multitude of healthcare professionals, I ask you, Cabinet Secretary, for an honest appraisal of how you feel that the Welsh NHS has, under your watch, performed so far this winter. How is it coping, and do you feel that it is in a healthy enough position to see out the rest of the winter season?

The British Medical Association, in evidence it gave to committee and in further briefings, states that too many hospital beds have closed over the last decade and the

lack of investment and capacity in social care is increasingly impacting on the provision of healthcare, particularly during times of peak demand.’

Yet, in evidence you gave on 17 November, you said:

we don’t think that there is evidence that year-round capacity is overstretched in terms of our numbers. We’re always looking, though, at whether we have got the right level of bed capacity as part of the system.’

Do you still stand by these views, even though the BMA seemed to think differently?

Now, I do agree that many of these organisations say that the NHS is under this pressure year-round, however, the shape of that pressure changes in the winter, with far more of the individuals at either end of the spectrum being at risk—either the very young or the very elderly. Society has changed and Wales has now got an increasingly ageing and therefore more frail population, and this means there are more complex needs and an increase in the amount of visits to accident and emergency departments. Wales has the highest rate of long-term limiting illness in the UK. In the nine years between 2001-02 and 2010-11, the number of people with chronic or long-term conditions increased from 105,000 to 142,000, therefore placing more pressure on services.

And, finally, the college of paediatrics and child health have highlighted the increased demand on services by children and young people, and they go on to highlight that they feel the number of high dependency and intensive care unit beds are insufficient. Cabinet Secretary, yesterday, I asked you a number of questions during the urgent question, and there are a few I would like further clarification on. You accept that bed numbers have reduced, but said that beds are ring-fenced over winter months in case of extra demand. Can you tell me whether you feel that there are now enough beds available in the Welsh NHS and, more specifically, are they available in the correct locations—community and secondary? It is all very well having bed space for patients, but if they’re not located where we need them the most then they are wasted. Yesterday, I raised the issue of frail and elderly assessment units, which could be set up in A&Es during times of peak demand. Similar units are already deployed in hospitals in other parts of the UK. Could I get on record a commitment to consider this approach, which may help to alleviate the direct pressures on the front-facing parts of our health service and get patients treated more efficiently, a point made yesterday by the college of emergency medicine?

Angela Burns (Conservative, Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire)

I’m also interested, Cabinet Secretary, in the way that GPs are being consulted and when, when it comes to planning for peaks in demand for services. Do you encourage health boards to bring senior GPs onside at the planning stage, as they will have very different views on what constitutes pressure than hospital staff, because we need to ensure that all parts of our NHS are pulling in the same direction and following the same guidelines and recommendations? And, during the evidence we received, the GPs were very clear in saying they’d not been involved in preparations for winter.

We’ll be fully supporting both of Plaid Cymru’s amendments and, whilst we can support almost all of the Government’s amendments, I do not see the evidence for the statement that you’re investing record levels of funding into the NHS. Statistics that I have show that, this year, the funding is less than 2014-15 and years of underfunding have led to this situation. I am pleased that you are calling on yourselves to provide this status report, which the Welsh Conservatives have asked for because I do think it is only by you, Cabinet Secretary, keeping up the pressure on health boards that we will see any chance of adherence to the plans that so few of the professionals claimed they had part in. I look forward to hearing your response.

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Thank you very much. I have selected the three amendments to the motion. Should amendment 1 be agreed, amendment 3 will be deselected. I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Health, Well-being and Sport to formally move amendment 1 tabled in the name of Jane Hutt.

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Formally.

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Thank you very much. I call on Dai Lloyd to move amendments 2 and 3 tabled in the name of Rhun ap Iorwerth.

David Lloyd (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

Thank you very much, Deputy Presiding Officer. It’s a pleasure to take part in this important debate. Naturally, we’re talking about winter preparedness. As my fellow Members of the health committee will be aware, we have been continuing an inquiry over the past few weeks into this particular issue. Of course, it’s true to note, as we heard in evidence, that the health service in Wales is under huge pressure throughout the year, if truth be told, but there are some peaks during the winter months.

In the time that I have, I was going to note, following our amendment that notes the importance of the social care services in all of this, that there is a danger that those of us who work in the health service just to go on about the health service. But unless we get the social care services right, then it will undermine the efforts of the health service to get to grips with these particular issues. Specifically, therefore, we need to expand provision in the community in terms of our social care services in the first instance, to prevent some people from having to go to hospital in the first place. So, we need to improve care in the community. That’s down to our GPs and their teams, but it’s also down to social care in the community to enable people to remain in their homes. There’s excellent work going on, but we need more of that provision to prevent people from having to go to hospital in the first instance.

Then, the other issue: when people are ready to go home from hospital. We need to expand that provision as well in terms of social care to ensure that there is as little delay as possible in transfers of care into the home. So, I would like to see—and I’ve talked about this before—social workers in all GP surgeries and social workers on every ward in our hospitals. It would be their responsibility to arrange how that patient goes home promptly. There are different schemes in different places here in Wales. Projects in Caerphilly—I’ve heard of one where there’s collaboration and it encourages social workers to be located in our GP surgeries and our hospitals. It’s improving provision and improving patient experience of the health service as a whole, and that’s in terms of social care.

Having discussed the importance of social care services, what’s important in the winter months is that everyone who needs the flu vaccine does receive that vaccination. That includes everyone over 65 years of age, those with long-term conditions such as heart and lung conditions and diabetes and so on, and also the staff in the health service and social care. We received plenty of evidence that the average number of staff in the NHS that received the flu vaccine could be relatively low in some areas. So, we need to persuade those people because, ultimately, we want to keep our staff healthy as well.

My final point in the time that is available to me: I’m going to talk about, beds because the system is under pressure because of a lack of capacity. One of those is in terms of beds—yes, in our hospitals, but also beds in community settings and in residential homes and so on. I’ve been talking about a lack of beds for many years. People always accuse me of oversimplifying the problem because it’s about more than just about a bed. But ultimately, most of the time we just need a bed, don’t we? You can talk about what kind of bed that is, and who is going to staff that, but ultimately, we’ve seen an erosion in the number of beds available in our health service, and in terms of social care. There’s been a decrease in the number of beds available and yet there’s an increase in the number of patients. Well, that doesn’t add up, does it? David.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

I thank the Member for the intervention. I accept and agree that the number of beds is decreasing—as I’m sure the Member will recognise, we’re often told that the more beds you have the more you fill them. But also there’s a serious question of staffing and the nursing requirements to make sure that beds are safely staffed. There’s an issue there we have to address as well, surely.

David Lloyd (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

Yes, I’m entirely content to accept that point. We always accept that point, but sometimes we lose sight of the fact that we need more beds regardless. The system is at its most efficient when 85 per cent of bed capacity is full. We need some kind of give in the system, because when things remain full we don’t have that flexibility to be able to respond to different emergencies. Thank you.

Dawn Bowden (Labour, Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney)

Can I say that I do find it more than just a little ironic that it is the party in Government in Westminster bringing forward this motion on the back of challenges facing the Welsh NHS—the same party that has not just consistently cut funding to the Welsh Assembly but has overseen the biggest crisis facing the NHS and social care in England probably in our lifetime?

But here in Wales, of course, we do face challenges and it’s not just winter pressures that put a strain on the NHS and care services. Rising demand for services is a consequence of the success of the NHS and care sector in keeping people alive for longer. Coupled with an ageing population, we have patients presenting with more complex and serious and severe conditions. This unavoidable reality of rising demand and complexity of needs is a challenge to the health and care sector all year round and these constant pressures inevitably increase during winter months when the NHS also has to deal with higher levels of staff absence through illness. No one is saying either that there isn’t also a challenge here in Wales in recruiting more doctors and other professionals within the NHS—

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

Will the Member take an intervention?

Dawn Bowden (Labour, Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney)

Not at the moment, no. Many of the submissions to the Health, Social Care and Sport Committee identified workforce planning and staff shortages as a key issue for our care services all year round.

However, what we do have in Wales is a Government that is prepared to allocate additional funding and introduce legislation and initiatives to tackle the challenges facing us. Other common themes amongst the evidence that was submitted to the committee included the potential for pharmacists and other care staff to free up GP services and the need for greater integration of health and social care.

Now, in my constituency, Cwm Taf health board were part of a successful pilot scheme where GPs actively triaged patients to pharmacy where appropriate. The Welsh Government has committed to a further roll-out of the Choose Pharmacy scheme across other parts of Wales. I think it’s worth noting that this is in stark contrast to England where the Westminster Government announced a cut in funding available to pharmacies there. Significantly, we have £60 million being invested in the pioneering intermediate care fund, which those giving evidence to the committee identified as being vital to relieving the everyday pressures on our health services.

So, what we can evidence here in Wales are measures to tackle the issues that present real challenges to the NHS all year round but which are exacerbated during winter months. I’ve referred to some of those initiatives already but other measures include the nurse staffing levels Act; the extension of the bursaries for student nurses, midwives and allied health professionals, which, of course, has been scrapped by the Tories in England; investing in primary care with a primary care and workforce plan backed by £43 million; GP practices being offered access to a new support package; promoting the Choose Well campaign to try and alleviate the pressures on emergency services; an extra £50 million to deal with the increased demand in winter months; and ensuring health boards, local authorities and the Wales ambulance service have updated and integrated winter plans. All these initiatives are about longer-term solutions to the challenges faced by our health and care services, and are an integral part of the additional £50 million announced by the health Secretary to help deal with those winter pressures. We should always recognise, of course, that, with all of these initiatives, they would not produce the desired impact if they were not underpinned by the tremendous dedication of all those staff working in our health and care services—

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

Will the Member take an intervention now, please?

Dawn Bowden (Labour, Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney)

No, I haven’t got enough time.

So, while no-one underestimates the challenges that winter pressures place on our health and social care here in Wales, we have a Government that is working closely with all partners in the health and social care sector to deliver—long-term and sustainable—to avoid the sort of crisis currently faced by the NHS and care sector in England.

Caroline Jones (UKIP, South Wales West)

I would like to thank the Welsh Conservatives for bringing forward this debate today. So far, winter 2016-17 has been a mild one and apart from the north-east of Wales, there haven’t been any major outbreaks of influenza-type illnesses. However, this hasn’t reduced pressures on our NHS. According to the Royal College of Nursing, our hospitals are so full all year round that the system cannot cope with a seasonal spike in demand. I fear that if we do see a seasonal spike in demand this winter, our NHS may not be able to cope.

At this point, I would like to put on record my thanks to our dedicated health and social care staff who work incredibly hard all year round, but even more so at this time of year, to ensure that patients receive excellent care despite the pressures. In fact, if our health and social care staff weren’t so dedicated and hard-working, our healthcare system would have broken down a long time ago.

The NHS and the social care sector investment has not kept pace with the demands on the system, and has been made worse by poor strategic planning by successive governments. One of the worst decisions affecting the NHS has been the reduction of bed capacity over the last two decades and the closure of cottage hospitals. This has been compounded by a lack of investment in the social care sector. Traditionally, the solution to winter pressures has been to increase capacity by cancelling non-urgent operations. This is short-termism at its worst. It only leads to increased misery for those on waiting lists and only delays the problem, rather than fixing it. The investment put up by the Welsh Government to tackle winter pressures is welcome, but will only be a short-term fix unless we address the underfunding of social care and increase the capacity of our hospitals.

We have a growing and ageing population, so unless we take radical action now, the strain our NHS is under will reach breaking point. Diolch yn fawr.

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

It’s a self-evident truth that increased seasonal demand puts further strain on an already overstretched service, resulting in lengthy waits for patients. As the British Medical Association Cymru warned last October, the frail elderly and a rise in respiratory conditions lead to more and different admissions in winter. GPs report difficulties in arranging for patients to be assessed or admitted all year round. Such patients can end up being directed to the emergency departments where they join others waiting for a hospital bed to become available. Age Cymru’s public policy statement on fuel poverty last September said that fuel poverty is a significant problem for many older people in Wales—the group most likely to suffer from this—and is a significant cause of excess winter deaths. Ninety per cent of 16,000 excess winter deaths in Wales over the past decade involved people aged over 65, with the highest rate amongst those over 85, who constituted nearly 50 per cent of the total.

In 2012, almost 30 per cent of Welsh households were estimated to be in fuel poverty, spending 10 per cent or more of household income on fuel to maintain heat adequate enough to safeguard comfort and health. Increased household incomes and decreased fuel prices saw this fall to 23 per cent in 2016, but that still represents 291,000 households and 43,000 in severe fuel poverty. Welsh Government targets to eradicate fuel poverty amongst all vulnerable households by 2010 and social housing by 2012 were missed. There is no realistic prospect of achieving the 2018 target of eradicating fuel poverty in Wales, and, as Age Cymru state, many of the mechanisms and measures contained within the 2010 fuel poverty strategy are out of date, or no longer applicable. I think the time is right for the Welsh Government to refresh its fuel poverty strategy, with a clear programme and timescales, credible evidence base, and new fuel poverty targets, rooted in delivery rather than being a hostage to energy price movements.

As Fuel Poverty Coalition Cymru states, the Welsh Government must save lives by implementing the NICE guidelines on tackling excess winter deaths. And although fuel poverty is first and foremost a social justice issue, this First Minister has again given responsibility for reducing it to the Cabinet Secretary for Environment and Rural Affairs. It is therefore essential that the Welsh Government works with Fuel Poverty Coalition members to instead place fuel poverty at the heart of action to tackle poverty, with strong emphasis on all sectors taking responsibility together. We must put early intervention and prevention into practice, giving real meaning to person-centred and citizen-directed approaches.

Local affordable warmth schemes, spearheaded by the Flintshire affordable warmth partnership, should be expanded, working with local authorities, third sector organisations, and existing public and private sector energy efficiency schemes, to address specific fuel poverty and health issues prevalent in Wales. Independent advice services for people in fuel poverty must be supported, rescuing those in immediate crisis whose needs are not met by current provision. Energy Best Deal sessions, funded by energy suppliers, Ofgem, and Citizens Advice, must be embraced, as must energy company contributions, such as the charitable British Gas Energy Trust, offering advice and support for people struggling with energy bills, and Npower’s Health Through Warmth scheme, helping vulnerable people with cold-related illnesses to fund and install heating and insulation in their homes.

In March I’ll be sponsoring an event in the Senedd, promoting the continuation of National Energy Action Cymru’s Calor-sponsored rural Welsh energy advisorship programme, to assist fuel-poor households in off-grid rural communities across Wales. A written answer I received from the First Minister yesterday stated the Welsh Government’s key programme for tackling fuel poverty comprises its Warm Homes programme, including the Nest scheme. However, Fuel Poverty Coalition Cymru is concerned that the proposed new Welsh Government eligibility criteria will deny help for many households currently eligible, preventing interventions that save public money.

We must embrace co-productive preventative services, designed to operate throughout the year, to reduce winter pressures and enable health professionals to concentrate on meeting clinical needs, such as the British Red Cross support service, planned for Glan Clwyd Hospital, Bodelwyddan—their community navigates this pilot at Clarence House surgery in Rhyl and their welfare centre in Wrexham. The Joseph Rowntree Foundation and Bevan Foundation told the last Assembly that fuel poverty should be central to the Welsh Government’s tackling poverty action plan. We therefore need a revised fuel poverty strategy now.

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Thank you very much. I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Health, Well-being and Sport, Vaughan Gething.

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer, and I thank the Members who have taken part in today’s debate. And I’m sure that, not just yesterday and today, we will spend more time in this Chamber discussing the reality of winter pressures upon our health and social care services over the coming months.

We all know that there’s been very real pressure over recent weeks in health and social care services here in Wales, and right across the United Kingdom. And it is a testament to the commitment and skill of our staff that, despite these genuinely difficult and trying circumstances, the vast majority of patients continue to receive their care in a professional and timely manner, and the dedication of our staff should be a source of great national pride.

The winter plans of health and social care partners are being implemented in response to pressures that we all recognise. Parts of primary community care, for example, have reported an increase of 30 to 40 per cent in demand for GP appointments, and an indicative increase of 10 to 15 per cent demand in out-of-hours services. But we know, in terms of taking new measures, the 111 pathfinder in the Abertawe Bro Morgannwg University Local Health Board area also saw an increase in demand over Christmas—some days seeing over 350 more calls per day than the typical peak volume calls for the first few months of that pilot. But, crucially, that service also appears to be working well in providing care, but also in diverting people away from unnecessary journeys into a hospital. And, again, that is a testament both to the skill and the dedication of our staff, and the design and the delivery of the 111 service. I recognise comments made by a range of Members in this debate about GPs having a critical role to play, both in the design of winter plans, and in the delivery of healthcare throughout the winter. That’s why it is encouraging that primary and community care services are generally coping with recent increased activity. The Welsh Government, of course, are supporting a range of initiatives, including local examples of telephone triage, enhanced pharmacy services that are also helping to manage demand, and I’m pleased that Dawn Bowden managed to highlight a number of those initiatives there. They’re really making a difference to individual staff, but crucially to the patients they care for.

And, again, the Welsh ambulance service has experienced some huge spikes in demand. For example, on New Year’s Day, there were 46 per cent more red calls than the daily average in 2016, but the service, though, has been able to safely discharge up to 200 patients per day without transport to hospital—that’s using its enhanced clinical desk service, all by treating patients at the scene. So, this isn’t a comment of the NHS simply putting more money into the previous system that it’s always run—there is real change, reform and innovation taking place, and it’s led by our staff and informed by the very real evidence of what works on the ground.

Andrew RT Davies (Conservative, South Wales Central)

Will you take an intervention?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Yes.

Andrew RT Davies (Conservative, South Wales Central)

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary, for taking an intervention. I do take the point and support the point that there is excellence going on every day within the NHS, and in particular in our ambulance service. But would you respond to the reports today of a rugby player who broke his neck and had to wait two hours on a pitch before the ambulance arrived to pick him up to take him to hospital? Can you confirm that that is very much an isolated case and isn’t a situation that people are finding happening in other parts of Wales?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

I’m only aware of the headline issues in the particular point that you raise, but I think it is an isolated case. And, in fact, the evidence of our statistical evidence of what happens when people make calls is that the great majority of people receive a much faster response, both in red and in the amber category. And that is part of the point where I think we should be proud of what our service is doing. The resilience of the ambulance service in particular, in this winter compared to the one before, and the one before that—I do not think you would have seen the sort of resilience that has generally been delivered by our staff. That is because of the staff, and that is because of a change in the model and the prioritisation of patients with the greatest level of need. And again, I’m really proud of what our ambulance service are delivering, in this, the most demanding time of the year. And management information also shows that attendances at major A&Es are up by as much as 5 per cent for the days following the new year compared to last year. So, demand is continuing to rise, and early in-hospital management data also show that emergency admissions peaked at a five-year high on 27 December.

Now, we are supporting health and social care with record levels of investment, including the additional £50 million support that I’ve previously announced. That’s in addition to the £43 million for the primary care fund, and £60 million for this year’s intermediate care fund, to help prevent unnecessary admissions and delayed discharges. And on delayed discharges of care, we again have a good story to tell in Wales. We’ve gone from a period of a high a few years ago to sustaining a level of reduction. There is always more to do, and that is absolutely the approach I take, in understanding and recognising the achievements and the improvement that is there, and again with what more we need to do to see further improvement, with different partners needing to be involved, engaged and having a stake in that improvement. All of this is being delivered against a backdrop of sustained austerity for public services, and that is an unavoidable reality for all of us in this Chamber, but, more importantly, for our staff and the general public.

We have made different choices to England, which, of course, has been in the news in the last week or so—different choices on planning and funding our health and social care system together. That’s why we chose not to make cuts to social care that Simon Stevens, and others in NHS England, are now saying are a very real problem for them. We were criticised for the approach that we took, in seeing health and social care together in the last term, but I say to people in this Chamber, who are now urging us for more money for social care and for the national health service, not just to look at yesterday, in the final budget, but at the additional £25 million announcement in the draft budget, and an extra £310 million on top of that in the final budget yesterday. We are funding social care to levels that are not seen in other parts of the UK, and we should all be proud of the choice we are making, but it does not come consequence free for other parts of our public services.

I said previously in the Health, Social Care and Sport Committee that we were better prepared for winter than ever before. We’ve learnt from our previous winters. And, in addition, there will, of course, be more learning to come from this winter and more improvements for the years ahead. But I say again that we will expect challenging days ahead, where the pressures will escalate and reduce again. Each of us in this Chamber should feel extremely grateful and fortunate that we are here and not facing those front-line pressures that our staff do.

We will continue to work with partners to deliver the very best possible care at the most demanding time of year, and that is only possible because of the staff we have in health and social care.

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Thank you very much. I call Angela Burns to reply to the debate.

Angela Burns (Conservative, Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire)

Thank you very much indeed for your response, Cabinet Secretary. I have to tell you that I was expecting something a little bit more forensic, given that we were asking for a status report—an update report. In fact, in your amendment, which you tabled to this motion, you said that you’d be providing a status report. What you’ve done is given us a whole series of opinions and also examples of good practice, which I utterly, utterly welcome, but what I don’t see—. This is my job: my job is to challenge you and to question you about what’s going on in the national health service. It’s your job to then hold to account the health boards. What we don’t see or feel, from the health boards, is that true liaison and collaboration with the general practitioners, who are one of the two main front doors to the health service, and who are under immense pressure, and A&E, the second main front door to the national health service, which is also under immense pressure, as the Royal College of Emergency Medicine said.

I don’t hear and didn’t hear any reference to liaison and collaboration with the domiciliary care sector and with care homes, because we need them to be fully functioning and ensure that those plans are in place. What I’m basically asking you for, Minister, is for you to convince us all that you have got those seven health boards at your fingertips. They have plans—. They said that they had plans in place to manage winter pressures and that you are measuring them—measuring their ability to deliver and measuring their outcomes. I look forward to the status report that you said in your amendment you would provide, because I think that you are the only one with the big enough stripes to really hold those health boards to account to ensure that our staff are not worked so hard that they can’t cope and that our public receive the care and support they need at a tricky time of the year.

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Thank you very much. The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Therefore, I’ll defer voting on this item until voting time.

6. 6. Welsh Conservatives Debate: Obesity

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

We now move on to item 6, which is another Welsh Conservative debate, and I call on Angela Burns to move that motion. Angela Burns.

Angela Burns (Conservative, Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire)

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I’m pleased to have the opportunity to bring this debate to the Assembly today, during what is National Obesity Week. Whilst many of us—and I’m one of them, definitely—are worried about the extra pounds they may have put on after a bit of over-indulgence during the festive period, obesity is becoming an ever-increasing problem within the UK as a whole and in Wales in this particular instance.

Obesity levels are rising in Wales. According to the latest public health survey, nearly 59 per cent of adults are classed as ‘overweight’ or ‘obese’, 25 per cent of whom are classed as ‘very obese’ and 27 per cent of children are classed as ‘overweight’ or ‘obese’. Our motion today calls on the Welsh Government to look again at its public health initiatives—the Minister and I have been talking about the public health Bill only this morning and cuts to the local government budget—to help increase uptake in public health programmes.

I will begin by looking at a couple of key facts. One in four adults are labelled as ‘very obese’ and it’s the highest in the UK. The reason why such concerns exist about the carrying around of such excess weight is the link it has to both chronic and severe medical conditions and the resulting reduction in life expectancy by as much as 10 years. It is a preventable condition and the Welsh NHS spends close to £1 million per week treating obesity, with obese individuals most likely to incur health expenditure.

The problem is that whilst initiatives are in place across Wales, inconsistent results are being delivered. Just two out of seven of Wales’s health boards offer level 3 obesity services and none offer the level 4 bariatric services, resulting in the fact that those in most need of support to lose weight are unable to do so, or have to go to England for that help. It is for these reasons we’re calling for more of a cross-portfolio approach from the Welsh Government to tackle this growing challenge.

We’re supported by the British Medical Association, who have called for the principles of the much-vaunted Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015 to be built on. The BMA have highlighted that the Act has failed to include indicators that would measure the prevalence of obesity amongst the Welsh population. Deputy Minister, we would be very interested to know of your views on whether or not you think that that could be changed—forgive me, ‘Minister’, not ‘Deputy Minister’.

Nor does the Government reference obesity in its well-being objective, which accompanied the ‘Taking Wales Forward’ programme. Minister, if you were to rectify those two major failings, it could help to focus more attention on the problems we are currently experiencing. I won’t talk too much about the Public Health (Wales) Bill because you and I have explored that in great detail today, but what I would like to do is focus the rest of my contribution on children.

The Education Development Trust have highlighted how schools can play a role in tackling obesity through school-based interventions. It notes the following interventions have had a positive effect: lengthening the existing time of PE lessons, something I must have raised in this Chamber dozens of times—it seems ridiculous that at primary school we are slashing the amount of time that young children are spending outside, in halls, running around; changing the markings on playgrounds to encourage increased movement and increasing the availability of skipping ropes and other sports equipment; walking school buses; highlighting the harm of carbonated drinks and removing unhealthy vending machines; incorporating nutritional elements into lessons, building on the healthy eating Measure—

Bethan Sayed (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

Will you take an intervention?

Angela Burns (Conservative, Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire)

Of course, Bethan.

Bethan Sayed (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

I just wanted to go on the other side of the argument and make sure that even when we’re talking about obesity that we don’t encourage people to go the other way to develop eating disorders. I’ve met many people who have had weight problems, who have been obese, and then they’ve gone to the other extreme. So, just to add that to the debate here today.

Angela Burns (Conservative, Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire)

And I think that’s a point absolutely well made. I think that what we can do is use schools to ensure that young people, by the time they leave schools, are actually at an appropriate body weight, understand all the nutritional values, and understand the importance of exercise and the joy in exercise, because so many young people actually find exercise utterly, utterly joyless at school, which is why we need dance and movement and all these other things, especially for young women. Because a healthy child, Minister, will turn into a healthy adult.

The whole point of this motion is to ensure that the Welsh Government does all it can to make sure that our citizens really understand and that they start their adult life fit, in the right place mentally and physically, because they will then stay trimmer for longer, which will therefore mean better benefits for their own personal health and, of course, an enormous benefit to the NHS and to society as a whole.

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Thank you very much. I have selected the two amendments to the motion. If amendment 1 is agreed, amendment 2 will be deselected. I call on the Minister for Social Services and Public Health to move formally amendment 1, tabled in the name of Jane Hutt.

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

Formally.

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Thank you. I call on Dai Lloyd to move amendment 2, tabled in the name of Rhun ap Iorwerth.

David Lloyd (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

Thank you very much, Deputy Presiding Officer. It’s a pleasure to move this amendment that notes that taxation of unhealthy products and rules over the advertising of such products are non-devolved matters, and regrets that successive UK Governments have failed to utilise these powers to tackle obesity. So, that’s what our amendment states. In the amendment we note the preventative agenda in this area by acknowledging National Obesity Awareness Week. Now, of course, we need to tackle that preventative agenda and, as we said in today’s health committee in the context of the public health Bill, there are things that can be done in terms of the nutritional standards of the food that we eat, and also with regard to the availability or accessibility of exercise. Now, it’s possible to tax sugar and sugary drinks, and there’s also room for taxation to realise a minimum alcohol price as well. All of these matters do contribute to obesity. Yes, there’s an education agenda, of course, naturally, but there is room to legislate to push this educational agenda forward.

Of course, the majority of these issues are outwith our powers at the Assembly, and where the powers do lie in Westminster there’s not much will to get to grips with that preventative agenda. Because there are no two ways about it: we need to recognise that the food and drink industry are very powerful in this regard, and can have a very heavy influence. We regret the dilution of the standards emanating from Westminster recently with regard to promoting the preventative work that is going on with this issue of obesity.

Diet is a vital part of this issue. I naturally accept the point that Bethan Jenkins made whilst sitting next to me. Fitness is also a part of this issue. But, we have to be sensible about that as well, and we have to make it easy for people to become fitter. You only need to walk 10,000 steps every day to reach the level of fitness that can have that beneficial influence on your health—10,000 steps. We can all do that—the majority of us—in this place just by using the stairs and not always taking the lifts. I’m not looking at anyone in particular here, but 10,000 steps are all it takes. I do understand what the Deputy Presiding Officer thinks about this every time I raise it, but if fitness were to be a tablet or a pill—. Fitness does mean reducing 30 per cent of your weight, and if you’re fit, your cholesterol level is 30 per cent lower and your blood pressure is also 30 per cent lower. So, if there was a pill that achieved that, then everyone would be calling on us as the GPs to prescribe it, but, unfortunately, fitness isn’t available in pill form, so it’s incumbent upon us to do something about that.

Also, ultimately, there are some people suffering from obesity and we can’t do much in terms of pills or fitness to assist them. There are some people who are very overweight and very obese and we need better provision for those people in terms of bariatric surgery here in Wales. I think the last estimate was that there are only three surgeons who have expertise in this area of specific surgery for the very obese. If you remember that over 50,000 of the residents of Wales have a BMI of over 40, which means that they are what is called ‘morbidly obese’, and there’s also a percentage who have a BMI that is over 50, which means that they are very, very obese, ultimately those people have failed to receive all sorts of advice and treatment, and a surgeon has to do something to get to grips with that issue for those people. The services aren’t available for them. As I’ve said, only three surgeons located in Wales are able to provide that service and the demand for it is significant and increasing.

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Thank you very much. Julie Morgan.

Julie Morgan (Labour, Cardiff North)

Thank you very much, Deputy Presiding Officer, for calling me to speak in this debate. I think it’s very important that we do keep this issue of obesity on the agenda, and, as well as it being National Obesity Awareness Week, I think lots of people’s thoughts, after the excesses of Christmas, as Angela Burns referred to in her speech introducing the debate, are turning to healthy eating. I do applaud the efforts of people to be more healthy in January. I’m not very successful at it myself, but I think doing a dry January, cutting back on sugary foods or starting a new exercise regime are really important. I think we all need to encourage each other to do that.

But, really, the issue is how we get that message across during the whole of the year, to foster long-term good habits. I do believe that we are raising a generation of more health-conscious children and eaters, because, certainly, this is something that is addressed in primary schools. We do know that unhealthy children become unhealthy adults. So, I think it’s very important that we get the message out to the younger generation.

But, as has already been mentioned, the figure of 26.2 per cent of children in Wales being overweight is very worrying. But I am pleased to see that 64 per cent of children report eating fruit every day. I wish it was a higher figure, but, nevertheless, it is 62 per cent, and 52 per cent eat vegetables every day, whereas, I think, 32 per cent of adults say that they’ve eaten five or more portions of fruit and vegetables the previous day. So, obviously, there is a lot of work to be done, but I do think that the Welsh Government has taken some very positive steps to address this issue.

I want to refer, again, to the active travel Act, because I think this is very important and will have an impact in encouraging people to build walking and cycling into their daily lives. We know that, at the moment, local authorities are currently undertaking preparations to create integrated network maps, and they’re to be submitted to the Welsh Government by September next year. I hope those maps will show areas for local walking and cycling routes that communities themselves believe should be prioritised. So, I hope that we are all able to draw attention to community groups and to this process, and encourage constituents to have input.

Like all of us, I am very concerned about the impact of consuming sugary drinks, and I was very pleased today to see that health experts have called for the Coca-Cola Christmas truck tour to be banned. This has been widely reported in the media. I really feel that this is a very detrimental event—this Coca-Cola Christmas truck. It stops at 44 places around the UK, including Cardiff. This Christmas, it was on Queen Street, and there were queues for free samples, which are handed out and that really just encourages children in particular to drink even more Coca-Cola. According to its own website, every can of regular classic Coke has seven teaspoons of sugar in it. I feel particularly strongly against this particular campaign because, in 2016—

Julie Morgan (Labour, Cardiff North)

Yes, in a second. In 2016, when it stopped at Asda in Coryton in my constituency, the whole of Cardiff was gridlocked because of the excess of people going to get the free Coca-Cola. I just can’t see that this goes along with good health.

Darren Millar (Conservative, Clwyd West)

I’m sorry that you feel so humbuggy about the Coca-Cola Christmas truck. Will you join me in congratulating Coca-Cola, however, for the way that they have reduced the sugar content of their drinks and expanded the promotion of the zero-sugar alternatives, which now account for over 50 per cent of their sales in the UK?

Julie Morgan (Labour, Cardiff North)

I welcome any reduction in sugar in drinks, but I think this particular activity is not welcome. I am also disappointed that the UK Government’s sugar tax seems to have been watered down and that things like sugary milkshakes will be exempt, as these can contain just as much sugar as fizzy drinks. I don’t really think that the proposed levy is as high as it could be.

Lastly, I would just like to mention the Daily Mile initiative, which has been mentioned here in this Chamber before and has been taken up by schools in the UK. Of course, one of the first ones to do this was in Scotland and I wondered if there are any examples in Wales. I couldn’t find any examples, but I hope the Minister will be able to tell us, when she speaks, if there are any examples in Wales. It does seem that this is a great concept and so simple to do, when the children arrive in school, to go and run a mile. Thank you.

Caroline Jones (UKIP, South Wales West)

I would like to thank the Welsh Conservatives today for bringing forward this debate on obesity, particularly just after Christmas, as Angela has said. Doing something good for ‘Jan-YOU-ary’ is a pledge we can all support during National Obesity Awareness Week. It is a matter of national shame that nearly two thirds of Welsh adults and a third of Welsh children are overweight or obese. But we have to deal with obesity in a sensitive way because people react differently, and we don’t want people to look at the size zero in a magazine and think that that is the way that they have to go. So, it has to be a case of educating people in a sensible way.

We must resist the urge to try to solve the obesity crisis by introducing legislation. A sugar tax is not going to magically stop people from drinking sugary drinks, in the same way that duties on cigarettes haven’t had the desired result that we all wanted and expected. We haven’t reduced the number—much—of people smoking. It just penalises those who can least afford to absorb the costs. A sugar tax, apart from being a regressive tax, will also do little to solve the fact that eating healthily is often more expensive than eating junk food. I mean, how often do people through—. You know, they need to get home quickly and they call in and grab a McDonald’s as opposed to going home and cooking. Allotments are now part of the past, really, where we had wonderful veg and fruit, and everything home-grown, which we now class as organic and that for most people is way out of their pricing, or their budget. So what we can do is ensure that we are better educated about the foods that we eat. Schemes such as Change4Life are a great start, but rather than relying on national ad campaigns we should be delivering these messages to every schoolchild in Wales. Part of the new national curriculum should focus on teaching young people how to eat healthily and how to live a healthy lifestyle. The top-down approach hasn’t worked so far, so let’s go for a bottom-up approach instead. Thank you—diolch yn fawr.

Mohammad Asghar (Conservative, South Wales East)

National Obesity Awareness Week is about promoting the ways in which individuals, Government, and businesses can improve public health. The aim is to provide the information and resources that can bring about long-term positive changes. This is desperately needed in Wales also. There is a level of obesity in both children and adults that represents a major public health challenge. Nearly a quarter of people in Wales are currently classed as obese.

Deputy Presiding Officer, according to the child measurement programme for Wales, more than 26 per cent of children in Wales are obese and overweight. What, actually, it is is what we take in and we don’t take out in the body—actually, we don’t burn calories. That is the area that we have to look at very carefully, and we have to start from the children, as my honourable colleagues have already mentioned. The children, when they go to primary schools—I think every school in Wales should have a trampoline. The children should enjoy the game and also burn their calories. Most of the school fields have gone for these developments for housing. For God’s sake stop that nonsense and leave these playing fields for children to go and play in the grounds and make sure the calories are burned, as we did in our childhood.

Basically, there are a lot of other things in life that we have to learn. Only standing for two or three hours a day—don’t do anything—and, my friend, it will actually reduce 4 kg in a year in your body, if you just stand; pity we only stand here for five minutes. But if you add up in a year half an hour standing—ladies in the kitchen, children playing around, all these minor things. All these—[Interruption.] We must, basically—[Interruption.] Obesity is getting serious. We’ve got one doctor in this Chamber. There are very serious diseases that are directly linked to this problem—heart, lung, kidney, liver; you name it—there are serious fatal diseases.

And the children, right from the age of 16—and when you’re young and smart, but, when you’re 40 and above, you become obese. That is not right. It is actually not putting the body into active real life and then giving a contribution to the community. It is costing the British Government virtually—it is costing us, the Welsh Government, £1.4 million a week. The national health service—this is serious money. It is not a laughing point, my friends. It is a serious point: £1.4 million a week. Our NHS is actually under strain to look after these diseases directly linked with obesity. So, we have to do something about it.

The British Heart Foundation says that Wales has the highest prevalence of heart failure in the United Kingdom, with more than 30,000 people diagnosed. What a shame. It is clear we need a programme of preventative initiatives to promote public health in Wales. But the Welsh Government approach to tackling obesity is delivering inconsistent results, with little sign of the level declining. The proposed Public Health (Wales) Bill has already been criticised for not including any provision aimed specifically at tackling obesity. We need a strategy in educating people and this must start in our schools, as I said earlier.

Deputy Presiding Officer, there are other areas, there are many areas in the world—. The Chinese—when you go to China, India and other countries, you go out in the morning and the parks are full of people doing exercises. But look at our parks, our areas. We’ve got beautiful landscapes in Wales, but I’ve yet to see the people going out and doing some exercises. What’s the problem? This is some—[Interruption.] Why are we spending money? It won’t cost us anything. Just come out in your gardens and do some exercise.

I know I’m not the right example myself, but—[Interruption.] I must admit—[Interruption.] We must do what we preach, but the fact is, our children—we’re talking of a generation, believe me. Ladies who are obese, it’s actually not helping for our next generation. Those of child-bearing age get problems; they cannot produce more children. Obesity is one of the direct—[Interruption.] The doctor is there. The doctor is sitting there. You can confirm with the doctor. This actually is declining. There is also—[Interruption.] There are, I said, many problems, directly linked, in health, directly to obesity.

Deputy Presiding Officer, the last point is that we must support—

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

No. No, I—

Mohammad Asghar (Conservative, South Wales East)

All right, thank you.

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Thank you very much. I must just say, though, I would like to think that men who are standing in kitchens as well could do some exercise at the kitchen sink. My husband certainly does when he’s doing the washing up. I call the Minister for Social Services and Public Health, Rebecca Evans.

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. Also, thank you for dealing with that point so I didn’t have to. I’d like to thank Members for what I think has, on the whole, been a really interesting and useful debate. ‘Taking Wales Forward’ commits us to developing and delivering four cross-cutting, Government-wide strategies, including our healthy and active strategy. So, this approach will prompt a change in the way that we identify and respond to some of those really stubborn societal issues that are complex and cross-portfolio and which do require a multi-partner approach. Tackling obesity is obviously one such issue.

I think it’s fair to say that we do do a great deal to support people in Wales to make healthy and active choices and to try and maintain a healthy weight, but it is clear that we can’t make the improvements that we want to make on our own. If we are to ensure that the vision of the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015 becomes a reality, we do need a whole-of-society approach to maximise well-being today and to ensure that the behaviours that benefit health tomorrow are well understood and acted on both by Government, our other partners, and, crucially, by individuals themselves.

The Public Health (Wales) Bill will further progress our efforts to embed health and well-being in all policies and programmes. It builds on the work of the future generations Act by providing Ministers with the power to stipulate the circumstances in which public bodies must carry out health impact assessments, supporting them to consider more systematically how their decisions and plans can contribute to improving health and well-being whilst minimising any negative impacts.

Obesity is a complex problem with no easy answer. We know that addressing it requires commitment right across Welsh Government. Many policy areas are already playing their part: planning, education, health, procurement, sport—they and others all have a major contribution to make. It also requires—[Interruption.] Yes, of course.

John Griffiths (Labour, Newport East)

Thank you for taking the intervention. In Newport, Minister, as I think you’re aware, we have a Fit for Future Generations group bringing together all those sectors you mentioned to try and get a more active local population. Is that the sort of initiative that the well-being bonds might support in due course?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

The initiative that you describe in Newport—I haven’t had the opportunity yet to come and visit, but I’d be really keen to do so because I do know that that is a really good example of partners all coming together in order to address physical activity and well-being and health more widely.

In terms of the well-being bond, this project is very much at its infancy in terms of the concept and we are working with officials, again across different Government departments, to pull together the vision for the well-being bond. We’ll certainly be in a position to say more about that in due course.

Tackling obesity, though, does require commitment from ourselves in Wales and beyond, including the UK Government and the food industry itself. A lot of it does rely on people themselves meeting us halfway and taking that personal responsibility. But, to support this, we do need to create the right environment, where choosing healthier foods and drinks is an easy option and where there aren’t barriers to being physically active. We also need to empower individuals through ensuring that they have adequate skills, knowledge and motivation to make the right choices.

Responding particularly to the Plaid Cymru amendment, we’ll continue to lobby the UK Government to take tougher action on the promotion of unhealthy foods to children particularly. We’re closely monitoring the development of the sugar levy for soft drinks and the action being taken forward to reduce sugar through voluntary food industry targets. These have worked, I think it’s fair to say, with regard to a reduction in salt, but if it’s not successful for sugar then we’ll certainly consider calling for a mandatory approach.

Within our competence, we continue to work through settings-based approaches, including through schools, hospitals and workplaces, and we’re taking the legislative approaches through the Active Travel (Wales) Act 2013 and our nutrition standards. We’re also employing social marketing and other campaigns, such as Public Health Wales’s 10 Steps to a Healthy Weight. There are many different community-level approaches being taken forward, and I do believe that these have to maintain some flexibility, enough to recognise the different needs of our different local communities. I’d have insufficient time, really, in the four minutes or so that I have to talk in detail about all of these today, but I have described them in previous statements and debates and I’m more than happy to provide further details in future, but I recognise one thing I haven’t talked about in detail in the Chamber previously is the all-Wales obesity pathway, and that sets out our approach to prevention and treatment, and it was mentioned by a number of speakers today. It does include minimum service requirements that health boards should be working towards, and I just wanted to reassure Members that I’ve personally challenged the health boards through my meetings with the chairs to increase the pace of implementation, particularly at level 3 and level 4 of that pathway and obviously would be keen to update Members in due course as well.

I hope, really, that what I’ve been able to set out has reassured Members that obesity and tackling it is very much a key focus for this Government, and we are putting in place the necessary infrastructure for a much more systematic and effective way of working right across Government departments and portfolios in order to tackle it.

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Thank you very much. I call on Suzy Davies to reply to the debate. Suzy.

Suzy Davies (Conservative, South Wales West)

Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd, and thank you, everyone, for taking part in the debate today. I, too, like Oscar, am not exactly standing here in a position of strength, but I do want to contribute and sum up today’s debate. We had an individual Member debate just before the Christmas recess, if you all remember, and the scene was set for this debate then. Jenny Rathbone opened that debate with three ways of tackling what I think we all accept by now is a growing problem, with long-term effects, of a condition that society tends to represent through the medium of fashion, through body image, through fad diets—the sorts of things that Caroline Jones was mentioning. And if the magazines we buy and the programmes we watch and the adverts we see don’t begin to change that narrative then genuinely I think you as a Government and we as an Assembly are going to have an uphill struggle trying to get sporadic nudge-based awareness-raising campaigns to have any impact at all. And, at the same time, people of all ages remain vulnerable to the dark side of those glossy magazines and social media and the Sky Living programmes that we all know about, so that we end up with the sort of things—or, shall we say, threats—that Bethan Jenkins mentioned earlier on in the debate, in her intervention to Angela.

It’s why I’m no fan at all, I’m afraid, of using public disapprobation of food and eating as a tool of population behaviour change as we’ve done, perhaps, with smoking and as we’re now starting to do with alcohol. It really does need a completely different approach. None of the ideas we’ve heard of today can be overlooked. They’ve all been really, really good ideas; we’ve heard a lot of them before, but we have to take a sort of reality check, I think, in what these things can look like in real life. We need some genuine, quite firm, political will here as well as public education in order to get through, or make sure that really good ideas don’t suffer from anchors of things that don’t work, and I’ll just give you some ideas of what I’m talking about.

So, for example, I think we’ve all, in turn, over the last five years or so, applauded the idea of the reintroduction of home economics, and Angela mentioned today more space for PE on the school curriculum, but is there the political will to create space on that curriculum, or even to create a longer school day to make sure that that is included? The various healthy school initiatives—I really liked, actually, the evidence you gave in the previous debate, Jenny, about the Flintshire experience and what’s going on up there, but, you know, I tend to think that, however well informed a teenager is, however early we say that eating apples is good, as we do in primary schools to some good effect, you give your standard teenager the opportunity to go out at lunchtime and grab a McDonald’s and that’s what they’re going to do. So, is there the political will to say, ‘Actually, nobody should be leaving school at lunchtime’? I’m not necessarily advocating that, but these are questions I think we have to address to make this stuff happen.

Sugar tax: how high do you go? I am very sad in having tracked the cost of a Mars bar, from when decimalisation was introduced, from 3p to 65p over a lifetime. The size of the Mars bar has shrunk considerably. I am still buying them. I know that they’re bad for me. How expensive do you have to make them to make people stop buying them? And that question matters in poorer communities where access to a variety of shops is really difficult.

On exercise, Dai, as a shorty, I probably take far more steps over a given length than, say, Nathan Gill here. [Laughter.] And, do you know, you are absolutely right about walking: it’s free, but time-poor sluggish individuals—I’m not even talking about me on this occasion—are put off walking by simple things like the weather and, in terms of younger people, by safety. People have been in this Assembly for long enough to know that I’ve talked about safety. [Interruption.] I’m going to mention cycling in a second, but I’m running out of time, okay? So, finally, what I wanted to say about active travel, and for cycling as well, is: please make ‘safety first’ the key ingredient, because if it’s not, it ain’t going to work.

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Thank you very much. The proposal is to agree the motion without amendment. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Thank you. Therefore, we’ll defer voting under this item until voting time.

7. 7. Plaid Cymru Debate: The Welsh Higher Education Sector

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

We move on to item 7, which is the Plaid Cymru debate. I call on Llyr Gruffydd to move the motion.

Llyr Gruffydd (Plaid Cymru, North Wales)

Thank you very much, Deputy Presiding Officer. It’s my pleasure to move this motion in the name of Plaid Cymru. We are, of course, of the view that students from outside of the UK, be they from within the EU or outwith the EU, do bring cultural, economic and educational benefits to our universities and colleges here in Wales, and indeed to broader society. It’s important, therefore, in light of the major changes that are facing us on a constitutional level, that that should continue and, indeed, that we do what we can to strengthen those international relations between our universities and the European Union and the rest of the world.

Llyr Gruffydd (Plaid Cymru, North Wales)

In order to do that, of course, it’s important that we ensure that Wales continues to be an attractive place for students. In my view, offering the opportunities to students to remain within the UK post study is something that’s important and would assist in reducing the skills gap in many sectors here in Wales too. The strong presence of overseas students also allows us to develop international partnerships anew. Indeed, as the UK is, over the next few years, going to be in the process of developing a new relationship with nations across the globe, the need is greater than ever for graduates who are internationally literate individuals who can provide the leadership required in order to create partnerships and relationships on a global level in the future. Reducing the involvement of Welsh universities with the international community isn’t conducive to achieving that.

The diversity of our international campuses does enhance the experience of home students through learning a number of different viewpoints held by students from all parts of the world. These, of course, are all important benefits, never mind the economic benefits, which are also referred to in our motion this afternoon.

If you count university expenditure in terms of staff and students, then Welsh universities have an important direct impact on local economies. In 2013, they produced worth £2.4 billion of GVA in Wales, which accounted for 4.6 per cent of all Welsh GVA in that particular year. Welsh universities produced £600 million of export gains in 2014. Universities are responsible for almost 47,000 jobs here in Wales, directly and indirectly, representing some 3.5 per cent of employment in Wales in 2013. In 2014, it was estimated that a total of almost £0.75 billion had been spent on research and development here in Wales, representing some 2.5 per cent of research and innovation spend in the UK. Now, that isn’t as high as perhaps we should be receiving. Plaid Cymru, back in September, did propose that more should be invested in this area, but certainly that, in and of itself, is a very substantial figure indeed.

To defend these interests, we need to safeguard the sustainability of the HE sector in Wales for the future, and we know that the funding situation for the sector is vulnerable as it currently stands. A report by Universities Wales has outlined the significant pressures on the HE funds at present. Now, since 2011, of course, we have seen the direct public funding provided to our universities through HEFCW and so on reducing from almost £400 million to some £112 million over the past five years, mainly, of course, because of the way in which tuition fees now fund much of the sector. Some 10 per cent of the sector’s funding emanates from this public funding at the moment—that’s through HEFCW, and so on—50 per cent comes through student fees, both international students and home students, and the rest comes from research grants, commercial contracts and charitable contributions, and so on. Universities, of course, have now had to borrow much more in order to make capital investments to remain competitive with other universities. Until recently, Welsh universities had borrowing levels that were lower than the UK average, but the most recent forecast suggests that these levels will increase very significantly and may go beyond that average figure over the next few years.

So, what needs to be done? The motion outlines a number of approaches that suggest some of the areas that should be tackled. Clearly, first of all, we need to safeguard the funding and the current EU programmes for research in higher education, or we need to at least provide alternative funding and programmes. Wales has received, as we know, over €140 million from the European framework programme during the 2007-13 round. Projects in Wales received some £12 million in funding from the Horizon 2020 fund in 2014 alone. Welsh universities have received some £180 million in funding from the European Investment Bank over the past five years for the development of campuses and the development of research and teaching facilities, and so on and so forth. So, this is an important area, and some universities are already telling us that partners are withdrawing from arrangements already in place because of concerns that they won’t qualify as international partners for funding unless all partners remain within the European Union.

International collaboration is crucially important for research projects. They enhance the student experience and the experiences of our academic staff. You will see reference to Erasmus in this motion. Over 200,000 students and staff in the UK have participated in Erasmus, not just in HE but in the FE sector, which has benefited very significantly from Erasmus. A survey from the British Council at the beginning of the month said that 69 per cent of people in Britain believe that we should continue to participate in exchange schemes such as Erasmus. There are benefits and international influence that can be gained from welcoming international students. International students and staff who have lived in Wales are more likely to trust in us, to visit Wales in the future and to establish business partnerships with Welsh companies. As has been discussed previously, we know that we can participate in Erasmus without being a member of the European Union. Countries such as Iceland, Russia, Norway and Turkey all bear witness to that. I also know that the Government has already agreed with the view that we need to do what we can to ensure that that relationship does continue.

We also need to ensure the visa and citizenship status of EU nationals working in Welsh universities. The first thing to say is that that is the ethical thing to do, because they are people and not playing cards in a political game. We have a visa regime for academics and researchers from outwith the EU that is so strict that, according to the evidence that I’ve received from universities, it has been a great barrier to a number of research projects and has a negative impact on the recruitment of international students. For example, over the past four years, the number of students from India studying in the UK has declined by some 50 per cent. There is some discussion that the UK Government wants to make the system even stricter, which will create real concern among staff and international students, and some of them will discount Wales as a destination, which is a loss culturally, economically and academically. The House of Commons Science and Technology Committee has asked for the Government to exempt scientists from the EU already working in the UK from any changes to the migration rules, so that talented staff can be retained within UK universities, and that is something that we, of course, would endorse.

Also, we need to enable Welsh universities to participate in a post-study work visa scheme. Jo Johnson, the UK Minister for universities and science, has already announced that EU students applying for a place in UK universities in 2017 will be safeguarded in terms of the place and funding until the end of the courses, even if the UK leaves the EU before those courses are concluded. But, of course, without the opportunity to stay in the UK for a year or two after graduating, it’s quite possible that many of those students will choose to study elsewhere in any case. So, in order to attract students to study in Wales, we should consider re-introducing a visa scheme that will enable students to remain in the country to work, having concluded their studies—something akin to what was actually abolished in 2012: the tier 1 post-study—