Senedd Cymru (Welsh Parliament), 25 January 2017

290 contributions from 43 members. The official report.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

I call the National Assembly to order.

1. Statement by the Llywydd: Appointment of the New Chief Executive and Clerk of the Assembly

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

As you all know, the Chief Executive and Clerk of the Assembly, Claire Clancy, has decided to retire following almost a decade in the role. The clerk is the most senior Commission employee and our principal accounting officer. It’s the responsibility of the Assembly Commission to make the appointment to this post and, over the last few months, we have conducted a rigorous, competitive recruitment process to find a replacement for Claire. We were looking for an exceptional individual and we attracted a strong field of candidates.

I’m delighted to announce the appointment of Manon Antoniazzi as our next chief executive and clerk. Manon has had an impressive career and brings a wealth of experience at a time when we face many new challenges and opportunities. Manon is currently director of culture, sport and tourism for the Welsh Government, having been chief executive of Visit Wales. Earlier in her career, she had roles at the BBC and S4C, as well as with the Prince of Wales. The Commissioners are in no doubt that Manon will approach the role with great skill and enthusiasm, and a passionate commitment to the success of the Assembly.

The performance of the Assembly Commission has a direct impact on the success and reputation of the Assembly. We rely heavily on the chief executive to provide innovative, effective leadership, and to deliver exceptional standards of service. Thanks to Claire and our hugely committed, talented staff, the Commission is a highly regarded organisation, much admired by parliaments elsewhere. Claire will be with us until Easter, when Manon will take up the reins to lead the organisation through the next exciting and challenging phase of our development at the heart of democracy for Wales. Thank you.

2. 1. Questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Economy and Infrastructure

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

And, so, we move on to the first item on our agenda this afternoon, namely questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Economy and Infrastructure, and I call on the first question—Janet Finch-Saunders.

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

1. Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on the potential economic benefits of a north Wales tidal lagoon? OAQ(5)0114(EI)

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Yes. A north Wales tidal lagoon has the potential to create considerable jobs in north Wales. And we have consistently stated our commitment, in principle, to supporting the development of a sustainable tidal lagoon industry right across Wales.

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary, and I’m sure you would agree with me in welcoming the Hendry review, and the positive support therein for tidal lagoon developments across Wales. For us in north Wales, such a project would provide essential flood protection, deliver significant employment and economic inward investment opportunity, and contribute towards helping Wales to become a world leader in renewable energy. A number of stakeholders have already pledged their support, and I’m glad that you pledge your support in principle. The Welsh Conservatives group pledge their support for tidal lagoon technology in Wales. But will you also back that up, please, with some commitment towards any funding that is needed to make that project a reality?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Well, we are fully committed to this project, and I’ll be meeting with Charles Hendry later this afternoon to talk about the pathfinder project in particular, which would lead eventually to the creation of a tidal lagoon in north Wales. It’s a project that could potentially create 27,000 jobs for the north Wales economy. It would also, as the Member highlighted, contribute to the defence of coastal communities, and this is something that is very much of great concern to the Welsh Government, and it’s something that I’ve spoken with the Cabinet Secretary for environment and natural resources about very recently. So, we are very enthusiastic about this project. We are supportive and, of course, we’ll work right across Government, including with the regional skills partnerships, to ensure that the skills are there to deliver the project in a timely fashion, were it to go ahead.

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Tidal lagoons are one manifestation of Wales’s blue economy, which, as well as energy, also encompasses fishing and aquaculture, and tourism and leisure. Wales has a strong advantage in this area against other countries that don’t have the same coast and high tidal reach. What priority will the Cabinet Secretary give to Wales’s blue economy in the new economic strategy, and what steps can he take to ensure that firms, large and small, are able to take advantage of this opportunity?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

I’d like to thank Jeremy Miles for his question, and also thank him for a very insightful piece on his website, concerning the blue economy. I think it’s very timely that we’re talking about this particular subject, as we start planning for 2018, which has been designated the Year of the Sea. And, for the purpose of growing visitor numbers, of course, the blue economy will be increasingly important.

In terms of existing opportunities, we are committed to taking advantage of every major blue economy infrastructure project across Wales, including the Swansea bay tidal lagoon pathfinder project, subject, of course, to the necessary consents being in place. I am determined to make sure that coastal communities take advantage not only of initiatives such as the Year of the Sea, but also of major infrastructure projects, and that the supply chain around Wales, and particularly in coastal communities, is able to exploit those major opportunities for economic growth.

Llyr Gruffydd (Plaid Cymru, North Wales)

It was good to hear Charles Hendry briefing Members of the Assembly at lunchtime, and one of the points that he made, of course, is that it is his recommendation that there should be a delay after the development of the first project in order to learn lessons from it. One understands why that would be beneficial, but there is recognition in that regard that that may create problems for the new supply chains that we intend to develop around the Swansea project. Whilst he is calling on the UK Government to demonstrate a long-term plan in terms of major projects, he’s also suggesting that we need to look at a series of smaller projects in order to maintain the supply chain in the interim, until we reach the point where we can be confident in moving forward with a number of larger projects. Can I ask what work the Welsh Government is undertaking to identify the potential for a series of smaller projects along the Welsh coastline in order to ensure that that supply chain does have the medium-term resilience and sustainability to survive the long term?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

This is a really important point the Member raises, and I’ve talked in the past about the need to have a constant pipeline of major infrastructure investments, but one that also mixes in smaller investments that can maintain people and employment whilst waiting or transitioning from one major project to the other. And for that reason, we’re working with local government, with skills providers, and with businesses, to ensure that we’re able to identify a time frame for major projects to take place in, but also one that ensures that, between the major projects, we’re able to identify opportunities for companies to grow and to prosper from smaller scale projects.

One of the key issues that I’ll be raising this afternoon with Charles Hendry, and it’s something that the Member has already touched on, is how long the pathfinder programme is envisaged to last for, because this will have, as the Member rightly says, knock-on effects not just on the Swansea bay project, but also on tidal lagoon projects right across Wales.

Angela Burns (Conservative, Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire)

2. Will the Cabinet Secretary outline what discussions he has had with the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Local Government in relation to the growth of business in Wales? OAQ(5)0111(EI)

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

I meet regularly with the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Local Government, and the wider Cabinet, to discuss a range of economy and infrastructure issues within my portfolio, including, of course, business growth.

Angela Burns (Conservative, Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire)

Thank you for that, because, as you will recognise, developing and growing a business in today’s climate is harder than ever and there are a number of issues that business owners cite as barriers to growth for their businesses—lack of structured borrowing and capital from the banking sector is one. However, many talk about the barriers from local authorities and other public sector organisations, ranging from Natural Resources Wales to transport infrastructure. Planning is key, and I recognise that both you and the Cabinet Secretary for finance don’t have responsibility for that. But what I’m really trying to elucidate is a sense that there is a coherent strategy around the Cabinet table that encourages and empowers businesses to thrive. The economy is our lifeblood. What else do you think, Cabinet Secretary, could be done to ensure that untimely delays, a lack of vision and disjointed thinking in public services doesn’t impede the growth of our economic health?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

I’d like to thank Angela Burns for her question. Since I was appointed to this post, I’ve embarked on numerous engagement opportunities with the business community, and the points that the Member raises today have been relayed to me on numerous occasions. For that reason, I engaged directly and constructively with the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Local Government in the drafting of the White Paper, which will be presented shortly, on local government. And I think it’s absolutely essential that we recognise that there are barriers that still exist that inhibit economic growth. For that reason, I’ve asked every department in Government to draft formally a competitiveness plan that can fuel economic growth within the private sector.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Cabinet Secretary, your predecessor introduced enterprise zones as a means of actually growing the economy in particular areas across Wales and, last year, she introduced an enterprise zone in Port Talbot. What are you doing with your colleagues to ensure that the enhanced capital allowances can be extended beyond the time we’ve already been given, so that the enterprise zone, which we all know does not take one year but several years to establish itself, can get established? What he also told me in discussions with him was that capital allowances were needed to build the sites and grow spaces, which is square footage that we haven’t got elsewhere in Wales, to allow businesses to come in and use them, enabling them to grow.

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

This is one of the points that has been raised by Chris Sutton on numerous occasions with me during, again, the engagement programme that I’ve had with businesses. It’s absolutely central that we recognise that many of the premises that were built to attract investors are now reaching a point where they require either major investment or replacement. So, it’s going to become an increasingly important aspect of the prosperous and secure strategy, as we move forward to a post-Brexit existence.

I think also in terms of enterprise zones and the support that we’ve been able to provide through business rates, we’ve been able to already support 200 businesses with approximately £9 million of funding through the scheme. But there are other ways in which Welsh Government can act as an enabler of economic growth and business growth, and, of course, the provision of modern fit-for-purpose premises is one of those means by which we can encourage economic growth and prosperity.

Vikki Howells (Labour, Cynon Valley)

Minister, as you will be aware, proposals to develop a circuit of Wales have been circulating for some time. Up to now, the project team have been unable to raise the necessary finance for the project. Would you be able to outline what recent developments there have been?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Like the Member, I’m concerned that the circuit of Wales project has been publicly debated for many years without the team yet being able to raise the necessary private finance to bring the project to fruition. The proposals have changed, of course, over the years, since 2011. Last July, I made it clear what our position as a Welsh Government is. I stated clearly in this Chamber that we require a minimum of 50 per cent of the capital and 50 per cent of the risk of the project to be taken by the private sector. Should that happen, we will consider any new proposal against the appropriate value-for-money and due diligence tests. The people of Ebbw Vale, as the Member has already identified, deserve to know if this project is going ahead and, crucially, if so, when. I’m keen to avoid the opportunity costs associated with a project that does not have a final end date. So, I have therefore written to the Heads of the Valleys development corporation today, asking them to make faster progress on this project and asking for evidence to be provided to me of named investor term sheets within the next two weeks.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Questions now from the party spokespeople. First, the Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Adam Price.

Adam Price (Plaid Cymru, Carmarthen East and Dinefwr)

Diolch, Lywydd. As the Cabinet Secretary will be aware, I and my party colleagues were roundly condemned for expressing our sincere belief, echoed by many steelworkers, that the current package of proposals on offer from Tata needed to be radically improved to make it fair and acceptable for workers. It was therefore gratifying to see as a headline in the ‘Llanelli Star’ earlier this week this picture of the AM for Llanelli and the MP for Llanelli, under the headline, ‘Leading Llanelli politicians tell Tata Steel: ‘"Re-think pension deal"‘. Now, the Labour MP for Llanelli said of Tata’s proposals that steelworkers have every right to be angry and expressed her hope that even now, just days before the vote, it is not too late for Tata to look again and offer a better deal, even though we’ve heard, of course, from some of the Labour benches the argument that there’s no alternative. Does the Cabinet Secretary agree with the Shadow Secretary of State for Defence that workers are right to be angry and that Tata urgently needs to rethink its proposals?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

I think the Member is right to say that workers should be concerned about the future of the steel industry, but it does nobody any favours to politicise what is an incredibly sensitive matter. It’s not often that I would agree with the leader of the opposition, but I do think that he was right to tweet that there was no place for political posturing in what is an incredibly important debate about pensions, which could then determine the long-term sustainability of the steel industry. I think what the Member for Llanelli has said reflects the concern not just within this Chamber, but in the wider communities where steel is so important, that there should be the best possible deal for steelworkers on the table for their pensions, but this is the only deal that’s there at the moment, and the First Minister and I have been very clear in our views that the debate should be conducted without any political interference whatsoever.

Adam Price (Plaid Cymru, Carmarthen East and Dinefwr)

I gave the Cabinet Secretary the opportunity there to support his own members—members of his own party—who are simply doing their job, actually, and I actually support them in what they’ve said. We’ve said the same—this deal is not good enough, and, really, he should be using his position and that of the Welsh Government to actually get a revised proposal. Now, earlier this week, the UK Government published its own industrial strategy, the Green Paper. Was he as surprised as me to see that steel only had a single passing reference in a 132-page document?

To be fair, there were some areas that present opportunities for Wales, so will he be proposing steel as one of the areas for a sector deal? Will the Welsh Government take up the offer of a joint ministerial forum on industrial strategy? Does he welcome the commitment to move cultural institutions and Government bodies, including research bodies, outside of London to support economic development? Does he welcome the long-overdue commitment by the UK Government to take into account the current regional imbalance in investment in infrastructure in making future investment decisions?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

I was pleased to be able to speak with Greg Clark at length on Monday ahead of the publication of the strategy. I agreed with the Secretary of State that joint chairmanship of the forum would be something that I would desire. I also spoke with him about a specific steel sector deal—this is something that we’re going to be discussing in the coming weeks.

I was surprised how little reference there was to steel within the strategy. However, I have made it clear that I wish to see steel become a major component of the industrial strategy’s work moving forward. I’m also keen—the Member is aware that I am keen—to decentralise wherever possible. So, whether it concerns investment or innovation, I would like to see more opportunities given to companies outside the intensely urbanised areas where, traditionally, financial institutions and innovation bodies are based.

Adam Price (Plaid Cymru, Carmarthen East and Dinefwr)

Of course, it’s often all too easy to attack the UK Government, and sometimes they make it too easy for us, but there are some things we can learn here, surely. At least they’ve got a strategy. It’s taken the new administration just six months to produce an industrial strategy. Where is our Welsh Government economic strategy that we were promised in June? Has research been commissioned? When can we see a draft? Will the Welsh Government commit to equalising infrastructure investment between the regions? There’s a 5:1 gap between the south-east of England and Wales; there’s a 3:1 gap between the south-east of Wales and my own region. Will it commit to locating the Welsh Revenue Authority outside the south-east? It’s good to see the decision imminent on the Circuit of Wales, but will other investment projects outside the south-east that have been languishing in his ministerial in-tray, like the Egin in west Wales, finally see a decision so that we can get on and create investment and jobs outside of one corner of Wales?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

I think the Member should reflect on what his colleague said yesterday about ensuring that due diligence is followed and thoroughly pursued—it’s absolutely essential. So, whether it’s Yr Egin or any other project, we do pursue due diligence rather than rush hastily into an investment that may not offer best value for money for the taxpayer.

In terms of the UK Government’s strategy, although the Member may wish to ignore the fact that a UK Government exists, we will not ignore that fact. One of the messages that came across clearly from businesses the length and breadth of Wales whilst I was consulting with them over the contents and the vision within our strategy is that we need to take account of what the UK industrial strategy presents for Wales. We could not have produced a strategy that did not take account of the key elements of the vision of the UK Government, whether we like that or not.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The Welsh Conservatives’ spokesperson, Russell George.

Russell George (Conservative, Montgomeryshire)

Diolch, Presiding Officer. I do have no doubt that the Cabinet Secretary will agree with me that small businesses are vitally important, of course, to the Welsh economy. But I have to say that small businesses haven’t been afforded the stability I think they need from past and this Welsh Governments. Business rates have been devolved for some time, and businesses are still at a significant disadvantage to their counterparts in England—indeed, they’re crying out for support. Given that there has been a 26 per cent drop in new business start-ups since 2011, do you think that the Welsh Government should give potential entrepreneurs and businesses the security that they need by raising the rateable value for small business rate relief from 1 April this year?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Well, in terms of business rate relief, this is obviously something that’s in the hands of my colleague, the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Local Government, but what I am pleased with is that the scheme is to be extended for 2017-18, and that a new permanent scheme will exist from 2018 onwards. We’re already providing something in the region of £98 million in rate relief to businesses in 2016-17. I think it’s worth noting, because you made the direct comparison with England, that around 70 per cent of businesses qualify for relief, and around half of all eligible businesses pay no rates whatsoever.

Russell George (Conservative, Montgomeryshire)

Well, Welsh businesses are already losing out to their competitors in England and Scotland. England and Scotland have already raised the levels of small business rate relief there. Furthermore, the development bank you are proposing is a hybrid model of Finance Wales—indeed, it provided the business case. Now, I had an example last week where I went to visit a business. Their rateable value had gone up. They would have received rate relief if they were in England—they don’t because they’re in Wales. Furthermore, they applied to Finance Wales for funding—indeed, Finance Wales sat around the table and helped them complete the application form—yet it was rejected. So, what I’ll say is: how is your Government going to provide the certainty and security to those businesses? Your White Paper, while concerned about the potential of the UK departing from the single market, offered no suitable plan for small businesses in particular during negotiations to leave the EU. Now, you’ve been asked this once today, but I will ask it again: where is your industrial strategy in this regard?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

The prosperous and secure strategy, which forms part of four cross-cutting strategies for Welsh Government, will be presented to the First Minister, along with the other three strategies, this spring. They will be published together, and through all four I think Members will be able to see that themes and interventions can be woven right across not just the economy, but the public sector, through education and through health. We live in a society, and we live in an environment, where economic priorities often align perfectly with the priorities of other areas of Government, and it’s therefore essential that we don’t just devise a strategy for the economy that’s in isolation from other strategies, but that we do it together. And that is something that I am keen to pursue. So, by spring, we will have presented to the First Minister our respective strategies—we are already meeting as Cabinet colleagues to agree the contents. I can’t possibly comment on the individual matter the Member raised on Finance Wales. I would however say that I’d be glad to take this up on behalf of him if he writes to me. I’ll take it up directly with Finance Wales as well.

Russell George (Conservative, Montgomeryshire)

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary, I’ll do that and I’m grateful for that. The Prime Minister’s industrial strategy has indicated that significant investment will be made towards research and development, and to training, so that our workforce is ready to deal with the challenges innovation will bring. Indeed, it states that we should be

‘creating the right conditions for new and growing enterprise to thrive, not protecting the position of incumbents.’

Now, in Wales, we have to consider also the implications of the Northern Powerhouse, which has been given an additional £4.7 billion by 2020-21 in R&D funding through its investment fund. And I would say, Cabinet Secretary, to my last question you did answer regarding having a joined-up strategy, and I agree with that position. But I would ask: would it not have been better to have a strategy to accompany the White Paper that you delivered this week?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

I think it’s absolutely essential, with regard to the Northern Powerhouse, that the growth deal in north Wales dovetails perfectly with the aspirations and the vision that local authorities and the local enterprise partnerships have across the border. For that reason, I’ve been quite clear in saying that, ultimately, I would envisage a joint committee structure that perhaps crosses the border. That would be the ultimate objective of what is, essentially, an east-west economy in the north. I think it’s absolutely essential that local authorities as they move from the North Wales Economic Ambition Board to a joint committee structure, recognise that doing business with partners across the board, not just in terms of growing the economy, but also in terms of delivering better public services and improving public transport, is absolutely essential.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

UKIP spokesperson, David Rowlands.

David Rowlands (UKIP, South Wales East)

Diolch, Lywydd. As the Cabinet Secretary knows, I’m very enthusiastic about the metro plans and look forward to its implementation. However, can he outline exactly what specific structural improvements the metro will make to one of my constituencies, namely Torfaen?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Well, we’ll be investing more than £700 million in the metro, and this will see vast improvements to infrastructure and to the travelling experience of many, many commuters across south-east Wales. I was very grateful that the Member was able to attend last week’s briefing session on the next rail franchise, which, of course, included a briefing on the metro as it’s going to be rolled out and, with new services commencing in 2023, I think it’s absolutely essential that all parts of south-east Wales that have felt cut off, isolated and marginalised within the context of economic growth in recent years feel empowered through new stations and infrastructure, and that includes in Torfaen, where I am looking very carefully at what infrastructure improvements, both to existing infrastructure and to new infrastructure, can be delivered as part of the metro vision.

David Rowlands (UKIP, South Wales East)

I thank the Cabinet Secretary for his answer, but I understand that Torfaen County Borough Council has pledged some £11 million to the project. Does he honestly feel this level of investment gives good value for money, given what he’s just outlined?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Well, Torfaen is a small local authority; I think we need to recognise that. And therefore £11 million, whilst, in the greater scheme of things, when we talk about more than £700 million, might appear a small sum, actually, to a small local authority, to a relatively small council, £11 million is a significant investment and demonstrates, I feel, a commitment to a vision that I think, right across the Chamber, we all buy into.

David Rowlands (UKIP, South Wales East)

Again, I thank the Cabinet Secretary for his answer, but can I urge him, perhaps, to make some improvements to the infrastructure in Torfaen? For instance, the Pontypool Road railway station is particularly uninviting: it’s cold, it’s dark and, actually, it’s well outside the town. So, would he consider at least upgrading the facilities on Pontypool Road or, indeed, consider moving it closer to the conurbation of Pontypool?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

I’ll consider any project as part of a wider investment by Network Rail that delivers better value for money and a better experience for passengers. I think the Member may be aware of this statistic—it’s quite startling—that Welsh Government have invested more in the current control period in rail infrastructure than those who are actually responsible for rail infrastructure, and I think that speaks volumes about the commitment of this Government to improving the rail network and to ensuring that Wales becomes a more united and connected country.

Suzy Davies (Conservative, South Wales West)

3. Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on the role of faith tourism? OAQ(5)0107(EI)

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Yes. Visit Wales continues to promote faith and religious heritage sites as part of the overall heritage offer. Our Year of Legends will focus very much on all aspects of Wales’s heritage.

Suzy Davies (Conservative, South Wales West)

That’s encouraging to hear. Faith tourism sites, such as Neath Abbey, and other Cistercian Way heritage, should be a huge draw for visitors, both domestic and from abroad, and particularly from the USA. Last year, you launched the faith tourism action plan to develop faith tourism as part of that wider visitor offer. How are you measuring its success, and can you say yet that it is persuading visitors to stay longer and spend more, both on and off-site?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

We can if we look specifically at those sites that we measure visitor numbers for. So, for example, with the Cadw sites that are related to the question the Member asks, we’ve seen a considerable increase in visitor numbers. And, in terms of the associated spend, we’ve seen again an increase. We’ve seen, for example, with Cadw properties at Tintern and Valle Crucis and Strata Florida, between them, they’ve attracted more than 84,000 visitors. Now, in terms of the faith tourism action plan, of course, it’s very early days in the actual delivery of that action plan, but Visit Wales—and I think it’s a very important point that Visit Wales sits on the newly established forum that stemmed from the faith tourism action plan task and finish group, because it’s essential, in terms of protecting the future heritage of faith structures, that we have the key promotional vehicle there, offering advice and also offering a willingness to promote right around the globe some of the key features of what Wales can offer.

Mike Hedges (Labour, Swansea East)

Last week, I was visited by a constituent interested in promoting faith tourism who was actually creating a website to do that for the south Wales area. Ireland had a signature project on St Patrick and the Christian heritage. Have the Welsh Government considered a similar project on St David and will the Government also consider a policy to protect key sites and market these sites around the world?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Yes, we already do that with the faith tourism section of the Visit Wales website. I think it’s important that we don’t see an overabundance of websites and web pages dedicated to what essentially are the same subjects, and that instead we are able to direct visitors who are looking to learn more about faith tourism to key portals. For that purpose, I am going to encourage the Member to, in turn, encourage his constituents to make sure that anybody who creates a website dedicated to a single or multiple heritage centre or a heritage visitor attraction directs people to the Visit Wales website, where they can learn more not just about what is in that very localised area, but right across Wales. We’ve been able to develop, through Cadw, a pan-Wales heritage interpretation plan—the first of its type in Europe—and that demonstrates how we are committed to capturing the essence of a Wales-wide cultural offer and promoting it across the globe. In terms of the outcomes—and the Member mentions the need to promote our sites better right across the globe—in terms of international visitors, it was a record year last year and one of the key factors that has attracted visitors to Wales is faith tourism sites. I’m convinced that, during the Year of Legends, that will remain so.

Julie Morgan (Labour, Cardiff North)

4. What plans does the Cabinet Secretary have to reduce congestion in town centres? OAQ(5)0115(EI)

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Our national transport finance plan sets out the interventions we are taking to tackle congestion and provide sustainable alternatives to car use.

Julie Morgan (Labour, Cardiff North)

I thank the Cabinet Secretary for the response. Does the Cabinet Secretary agree that it’s very good news that Cardiff council has recently launched a plan to get commuters to walk or cycle? This scheme has been designed with help from Copenhagen and experts there who’ve developed a very successful cycling strategy there. The target is to get commuters in the city out of their cars by 2021—and 60 per cent by 2026. Does the Cabinet Secretary welcome this initiative from Cardiff and think it is very good news for the city?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

I do very much welcome this initiative by Cardiff city council. We have some distance to travel before we catch up with some of those Scandinavian countries, but we are on the right path. The key to success is in changing people’s behaviour and cultures. For that reason, I’m particularly pleased that we are investing in the Active Journeys initiative, which is operating in primary and secondary schools across Wales. It’s my understanding that, to date, somewhere in the region of 232 schools across the country have been involved in that particular scheme and more than 30 are in Cardiff. The importance of that scheme is that it creates a change in perception and a change in behaviour amongst people at the earlier stage. We know, with recycling and the change in behaviour that’s accompanied recycling, that if you can convince young people to do things differently, they in turn convince adults and parents.

In the next financial year, we’re also going to be making available £2 million for road safety education. The Member will be aware, because it was in Welsh Labour’s manifesto, that we have restated our commitment to improving cycling proficiency, and this fund is designed to do just that.

I also fund, the Member may be aware, the travel plan co-ordinators across Wales, who are tasked with working with employers in their respective areas to encourage staff to use alternative forms of transport, or indeed to walk, where a car is not needed. This is complemented by the Cymru Travel Challenge offer, which aims to encourage commuters, again, to switch from their cars to other forms of transport or to walk for short journeys.

Russell George (Conservative, Montgomeryshire)

I met with your predecessor, Edwina Hart, last year with regard to Welshpool’s one-way traffic system, along with Welshpool Town Council as well. It was agreed at the time that Welsh Government would undertake some work to assess the options of Brook Street being reverted back from one-way to a two-way traffic system to ease the ongoing issues in the town. I’d be grateful if you could provide me with an update on this.

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

I’d happily provide the Member with an update. I’m very pleased that we’ve been able to identify additional resource to solve the problems of pinch points across the trunk road network in Wales. But I’m also keen to ensure that, where we can identify solutions to in-town congestion, we implement them at speed. So, I’d be more than happy to take a look at the particular proposal for Welshpool, which, if we can make progress on, I think will complement very much the investment that we’re making in Newtown as well with the bypass there.

Neil McEvoy (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

I declare an interest because I drive on these roads and I’m a member of Cardiff council. I find it incredible that Julie Morgan is talking about plans to reduce road congestion when she supports Cardiff’s local destruction plan, which would put 10,000 extra cars on the road. So, Cabinet Secretary, maybe you can explain and maybe enlighten the public as to how a local development plan putting at least 10,000 extra cars on the road in the west of the city is going to reduce congestion, because building on the green fields, as you plan to do—are you going to say those people are not going to drive into town? Absolutely incredible.

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

I don’t think the honourable Member should be so disparaging about colleagues in the Chamber. But the important point to make about Cardiff is that we are rolling out one of the most ambitious programmes, in the form of the metro, for public transport anywhere in western Europe. I think that’s something that should be applauded and it’s something that will hugely contribute to removing cars from our roads. I’m also looking at other innovative ways to support the bus network. The Member may be aware that this week I hosted the bus summit in north Wales—although it was a pan-Wales event; again, I’m keen to decentralise wherever I can—and that looked at how we can create a more sustainable bus network across Wales that encourages people to move from their private cars to buses. We know that there are 101 million passenger journeys taken by bus every year, but that number has fallen in recent times. The number of people that are taking journeys on commercial routes has fallen, whilst at the same time community transport usage has increased. There is, without a shadow of a doubt, the scope to increase the number of people who are using buses, and within intensely urban areas such as Cardiff city centre, I think it’s absolutely essential that we look at how we can encourage more people to use buses.

Julie Morgan (Labour, Cardiff North)

5. What plans does the Cabinet Secretary have to improve access to public transport for disabled people? OAQ(5)0116(EI)

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

We are fully committed to public transport for disabled people that removes barriers to travel, that empowers people and that promotes independent living, rather than inhibits it. I’m also particularly keen to ensure that public transport empowers vulnerable groups to participate in society, and this is a cornerstone of ‘Taking Wales Forward’.

Julie Morgan (Labour, Cardiff North)

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. Does the Cabinet Secretary have any plans to increase the role of community transport in the future, as part of the mix of transport available? Last week, I visited VEST and found that it was overrun with requests from people asking for help to go to day centres and to go to doctor’s appointments, and it seemed to me that there is a crucial role for community transport in the future. So, what plans does he have?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

As I just said to Neil McEvoy, I think community transport plays as an essential role within the mix, and we’ve seen an increase in the number of people using community transport in recent times. It’s my belief that community transport plays a particularly important role for people who are unable to access conventional buses or trains, or who may have particular health-related requirements. I want the community transport sector to be part of the solution for my plans for a fully integrated public transport network across Wales. I’m very pleased that we’ve been able to freeze and maintain the bus services support grant at £25 million, which is available to community transport, and I’m very pleased that that fund is being utilised by many of the operators around Wales.

David Melding (Conservative, South Wales Central)

Can I commend Julie Morgan for raising this issue about community transport? Because for the most disabled people—those that are most vulnerable and least likely to take any sort of journey—community transport is vital. I think it’s fair to say there was a lot of innovation until about 10 years ago when the grants system changed a bit, and it’s not quite been taken forward with the sort of pace that we are seeing improvements, whether actual or planned, in public transport. But there are ways of delivering these services in a very innovative, effective way, but they do need quite a high level of subsidy, and I think those people deserve that type of support from the rest of us.

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

I couldn’t agree more. I think it’s absolutely essential that we recognise that public transport should be an empowering provision, and that every person in society should expect access to good-quality forms of public transport. The Member might be interested to know that I’ve established an accessibility group to advise me on the new rail franchise, but the group is also able to advise me on other forms of public transport such as community transport. I think it’s essential that we recognise, again, as part of that fully integrated system, that community transport will become increasingly important across communities, not just in more urbanised areas but especially in rural areas where often there are no other solutions available.

Siân Gwenllian (Plaid Cymru, Arfon)

The general opinion is that the rolling stock that is used by the current rail franchise in Wales is of a very poor quality and significant investment will need to be put into it to improve the stock, which impacts on the passenger experience. But, in addition to that, by 1 January 2020, the carriages will have to conform to the new rules for accessibility for disabled people. According to the most recent survey, 73 per cent of the Wales and borders carriages would not attain the required standard. Are you confident that it’s possible for 100 per cent of the new Wales and borders franchise to attain that standard by 2020?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

It’s essential that the PRM 2020 is met by the new franchise operators. All four bidders are well aware of their obligations that they must meet by 2020. As we are currently involved in a competitive dialogue process with the bidders, I can’t reveal any of the details of what they are offering, but I can assure the Member that we are focused on delivering a transport system that doesn’t just offer quick, reliable transport for the most able, but is also there and capable of meeting all of the current and indeed near future measures that will be introduced.

With regard to accessibility for rail users, I’ve mentioned the accessibility group that’s been convened to advise on the next franchise and I’ve also sought agreement—and it’s been given—from each of the four bidders for that group to liaise directly with them over how they can meet the obligations that are going to be there in 2020.

Darren Millar (Conservative, Clwyd West)

6. Will the Cabinet Secretary provide an update on investment in critical infrastructure projects in north Wales? OAQ(5)0105(EI)

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Yes. As set out in the national transport finance plan, we are making significant investments to modernise transport infrastructure across north Wales. We are also working closely with National Grid to explore how a third Menai crossing could be utilised to carry power from Wylfa Newydd onto the national grid.

Darren Millar (Conservative, Clwyd West)

The Cabinet Secretary will be aware that I’ve been very concerned for some time about the vulnerability of the transport infrastructure in north Wales to flooding, particularly around the area in Old Colwyn. The Welsh Government, of course, had some additional resources, capital resources, as a result of the UK Government’s announcement last year—an additional £400 million. What work are you doing with your colleague the Cabinet Secretary for Environment and Rural Affairs to ensure that that critical infrastructure—the A55 and the north Wales railway line—have sufficient protection from the sea? Because you and I both know that those sea defences were damaged significantly in the storm just a couple of weeks ago. They take a pummelling every time there’s a high tide with onshore winds and I’m concerned, very concerned indeed, that if something doesn’t happen soon, there’s going to be some catastrophic failure that could lead to a loss of life.

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

I was pleased to meet with the Member on Monday in Llandudno Junction to discuss the tidal lagoon proposal and during that discussion we raised the prospect and possibility of a lagoon actually protecting coastal communities. I think it’s really important that I continue to work with other Cabinet colleagues in finding solutions that get best value for money for the taxpayer.

In terms of Old Colwyn, the Member is absolutely right; this is a particularly complex project that involves a number of Government departments to work together. I’ve been absolutely clear that, should Conwy council wish to bring forward a proposal for a project that requires funding, I would be more than happy to consider it.

Lynne Neagle (Labour, Torfaen)

7. Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on young people’s access to transport? OAQ(5)0113(EI)

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Yes. I remain very keen that there should be a legacy scheme after the current mytravelpass ends on 31 March. My officials have had encouraging discussions with representatives of local authorities and with the confederation of bus operators. I’m optimistic that I will be able to confirm the details of the successor programme very soon.

Lynne Neagle (Labour, Torfaen)

Thank you. That is encouraging, because I was very disappointed that the mytravelpass scheme was not going to be continued, particularly as one of the reasons given to the media was that young people were only using it to travel locally, which, for 16 and 17-year-olds, I don’t think should be particularly surprising. My concern is that young people will be prevented from having access to education, training and youth services. I hear what you’re saying about working with local authorities and the confederation of bus transport, but it is very much my experience locally that bus services are being cut because of the funding pressures on local authorities. I would like to know what evaluation you undertook of this scheme and what decisions led you to the decision to discontinue it.

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

I should point out to the Member that this was a pilot scheme, and therefore something that we can learn from. And we have learnt from it. The fact of the matter is that uptake was not as high as we would’ve wished, which is why I’m very keen for the successor programme to reach more young people across Wales. I believe it’s something in the region of 10,000 young people who took advantage of the mytravelpass scheme; I would wish to see that number grow far more with the scheme that will emerge, which I’m hoping to announce within the coming weeks.

Jenny Rathbone (Labour, Cardiff Central)

8. What has the Welsh Government done to collate the starting points and destinations of the 43 per cent of vehicle journeys around Newport of less than 20 miles? OAQ(5)0104(EI)

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

We have undertaken roadside surveys and postcard surveys at the Severn crossings and we’ve also made innovative use of mobile phone technology to understand trips made in and around Newport.

Jenny Rathbone (Labour, Cardiff Central)

It would obviously be very interesting for all of us to see this, because, clearly, it’s a crucial piece of information if we’re going to get the modal shift of people with the investment that we’re hoping we’re going to make in the metro. Obviously, there’s a wealth of evidence that people will only shift if there is either improved journey times and/or an improved cost for their journeys. I just wondered if you could say anything more about that, given that you have got the information and we haven’t.

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Yes. The Member is absolutely right. Data gathered from vehicles in terms of discovering their origins and their destinations will inform us in terms of understanding how people move around the region. Data collected as part of the M4 project will be used to inform development of the metro, and rightly so, because we need an evidence-based vision for the metro development. Rail ticket sales and other industry data are also an important source of information in planning transport interventions, and will inform the business case and also the design of phase 2 of the metro.

David Melding (Conservative, South Wales Central)

9. What measures are in place to improve the productivity of the Welsh economy? OAQ(5)0109(EI)

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

We are taking forward a range of measures to increase productivity in Wales, including raising skill levels, investing in high-quality infrastructure and also supporting innovation.

David Melding (Conservative, South Wales Central)

I think skills are key to productivity, and an often overlooked area is the skills of management, particularly middle management. There’s a lot of evidence that that’s a key sector, both in the public and private sectors, and perhaps more initiative needs to be invested there to get the best quality management we can have.

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

The Member is absolutely right, and I believe this is a subject that Professor Dylan Jones-Evans has been examining very closely recently. We can provide, through the Business Wales service, a mentoring service that drives up the availability of skills advice right across the business community. The Member is also right to say that skills are fundamental in driving an improvement in productivity. We have been conducting, as part of the work on the prosperous and secure strategy, work on sub-regional productivity variances, and what we’ve found is that adverse skills distribution is very much a key factor in lower productivity rates. We’ve also found that lower density of activity, or, if you like, a lack of agglomeration, is also a feature, which explains why productivity rates tend to be higher in bigger cities.

So, there are various reasons for productivity not being as high as we would wish, but now that we have the evidence base to take forward a strategy, I am convinced that the strategy will be able to deliver on an aspiration that’s shared across this Chamber to drive up the wealth and prosperity of Wales.

Lee Waters (Labour, Llanelli)

Cabinet Secretary, I was pleased earlier that Adam Price quoted this week’s ‘Llanelli Star’, which reported faithfully what I said in the Senedd last week. Since then, Nia Griffith—the MP for Llanelli—and I have communicated further with steelworkers in our constituency, and we have very real concerns that the deal, which is only possible because of the Welsh Government’s intervention, faces being voted down. Would he echo my concerns to the Tata chair that unless further changes are made, this deal may be lost, and the impact to the productivity and the wealth of the Welsh economy will be significant? Would he also agree that calling for a better deal, and calling for the deal to be rejected, is the world of difference, because that would be irresponsible?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

I think the Member is right to draw attention to the fact that encouraging people to vote down—as Plaid Cymru have done—a deal could lead to the collapse of the steel industry. That is in nobody’s interest, whether you are employed as a steelworker, or whether you live in a community or are related to a steelworker, which I am.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

I thank the Cabinet Secretary.

3. 2. Questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Health, Well-being and Sport

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The next item on the agenda is questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Health, Well-being and Sport. The first question is from Nathan Gill.

Nathan Gill (Independent, North Wales)

1. Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on the improvement programme for Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board? OAQ(5)0109(HWS)

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Thank you for the question. The health board reported against the milestones set out under the improvement framework in November last year, which highlighted good progress. I expect to see continued and sustained delivery of the required improvement outcomes before I can consider removing it from special measures.

Nathan Gill (Independent, North Wales)

Thank you for the answer. I received an e-mail from somebody in Old Colwyn who was concerned about the fact that their general practitioner is now retiring, and 1,200 of the patients are going to be disbursed amongst different surgeries. Now, it seems to me that what we need to be doing is thinking creatively around this area around GPs retiring, and maybe bringing some of them back out of retirement, or people who are going to be retiring, encouraging them to stay on part-time. One of the major blockages for this is the fact that indemnity insurance can range anything from £5,000 to £40,000 per GP per year. Can the Welsh Government look into this and see if they can find a creative way in assisting GPs to cover these costs in order to cover GPs on the rota?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Thank you for the question. There are a range of things we are already talking to the GP and wider primary care community about—that includes what happens when people choose to retire; how patients have an uninterrupted access to a proper primary care service; and the sort of interventions the health board are able to undertake if they are not able to manage a smooth transition to another practice and actually continue. Actually, what Members should take comfort from is that, in each instance where someone has retired and handed back their contract, there has been no break in provision, that every patient has been found a new practice to go to, or that the health board themselves have managed to run a proper primary care service.

I recognise the particular issue the Member raised about indemnity insurance. It’s something we have active conversations with the British Medical Association about, and I’m hopeful that we can come to a solution in the near future.

Darren Millar (Conservative, Clwyd West)

Cabinet Secretary, you’ll be aware of the concerns that have been expressed about the pace of progress at the Betsi Cadwaladr university health board, particularly in terms of progress to deal with some of the mental health challenges in the region. Following the Tawel Fan scandal, quite rightly, the Government put the health board into special measures, and one of the reasons it did so was because of its failure to address concerns about mental health issues. However, there was a six-month delay before the follow-up work, which was promised in the wake of Tawel Fan, was actually commenced. As a result of that now, we are drifting into a longer period. We were told that the work would be finished by March; now we’re told it’s going to be at least until the summer that people will have to wait. No-one’s been held accountable for what happened at Tawel Fan. There are people who are still suspended on full pay, much to the consternation of taxpayers in the region. When can we expect to see the sea change in delivery in terms of mental health services in north Wales, so that people can be confident that they are of a high quality? There’s no mental health strategy yet. We’ve only got an interim director of primary and community mental health care. These are things that should have happened quickly in order that people could get over the past and look forward to the future.

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

I think there are two particular parts to the comments the Member sets out. There is, in fact, a substantive director of mental health services, and he is leading the approach to actually reform mental health services in north Wales. So, you will see engagement over the period of the next few months on that new mental health strategy, which is absolutely needed, because, as a Government, we recognise that mental health is one of the most significant challenges that the health board faces for the future, and it’s probably the one that will take the longest period of time to resolve properly. In many ways, that’s why we set out the length of timescale that we expect the health board to be in special measures. I actually think the new director’s had a significant impact, but it’s important that that continues and is sustained.

The second point that I think you’re making is about the ongoing investigation. The health board did the right thing in actually approaching the Health and Social Care Advisory Service to undertake a proper and independent investigation, and what has happened is that that investigation has lengthened and expanded. As they’ve gone through, more families have contacted them and more interviews have been undertaken. My understanding is they’ve already had to review 300,000 pages of documentation and there are more people who still need to be interviewed. So, I think the most important thing is that enough time is taken to do this properly, and I don’t want to set any artificial deadlines for timescales that would actually potentially compromise the thoroughness and the adequacy of the report that we will ultimately receive. However, I do recognise that it would be in everyone’s interest if this matter could be dealt with even more promptly and expeditiously from a time frame point of view. There are people who will want to know what happened, from both the families and individuals themselves to the staff members who are engaged and involved as well. It is in all of our interests that this is done quickly; however, the speed of the investigation should not compromise the ultimate outcome and the soundness of that investigation. But I have been very clear with the health board about what I expect them to do. We also need to think about the oversight and the governance of this as well. So, it really does matter that we get this right, and I hope that Members would support and recognise that.

Llyr Gruffydd (Plaid Cymru, North Wales)

The health board, of course, is in special measures and has been for a year and a half, and I agree with many of the points that have been made on the problems that exist. But would you agree with me that there are some more fundamental issues that need to be tackled and would you agree that three specific things need to happen to that end? One we’ve already heard about is that we need more doctors and nurses to respond to demand. The second point, of course, is that much more needs to be done to integrate health and social care services. And, thirdly, we need to reopen beds in community hospitals to facilitate that patient flow from general hospitals, otherwise, of course, we are not going to tackle the fundamental problems.

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Thank you for the questions. We recognise and we regularly discuss the need for a new staff mix, not just the numbers of staff we have but who those staff are and how they’re used. So, the models of care really matter as well as the numbers of staff we have: doctors, nurses, therapists, pharmacists—there’s a whole range of different people we will need in the health service of the future, working a slightly different way. I agree with you about integration between health and care. That is a clear direction of travel for this Government, and we expect to hear more about that during the course of the parliamentary review and the recommendations that it will provide for us and every party in this Chamber.

On your third point, again, we do talk about patient flow, in the sense of those patients who don’t need to go into secondary care, don’t need to go into hospital beds, or into anticipatory care, to keep them where they are, a better relationship with residential care and domiciliary care, as well as primary care and social services, as well as understanding what mix of beds we need and what provision we need. Sometimes, that will be in residential services. It isn’t just about having alternative forms of community hospitals. We need to think about the whole mix that we need, so not setting a particular bar or a particular number on beds. We need an understanding of what our whole system needs, how people are getting to the right place for their care and, crucially, how we return people to their community and their home to continue receiving care, where they still have a need for care that doesn’t need to be undertaken in a hospital bed.

Lee Waters (Labour, Llanelli)

2. What plans does the Cabinet Secretary have to extend the range of allied professionals in primary health services? OAQ(5)0108(HWS)

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Thank you for the question. We expect to see an even more extensive role for allied health professionals as part of the primary care team. Health boards are already extending the role of allied health professionals through their local plans to strengthen primary care, backed up by Welsh Government funding.

Lee Waters (Labour, Llanelli)

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. I was very pleased to welcome you recently to Kidwelly to visit the Minafon surgery, where, a year ago, when the surgery faced a crisis when the doctors left, working closely with Hywel Dda health board, the range of local Labour councillors and the community, it designed a service where there is a pharmacist, a physiotherapist and other allied health professionals working together, and the service that the patients have has improved immeasurably. What can be done to extend that model to GP services right across Wales?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

I thank the Member for the question. It was, indeed, a very interesting visit, and recognising there was a real threat about the future of primary care in Kidwelly not that long ago. And it was helpful to see a really challenging but supportive environment from local elected representatives. And, actually, the staff within the practice have kept it going, particularly the practice manager, who really had a significant role to play in keeping that together.

And it’s a good and practical example of some of the things we talk about in wider theory—why we need a different team of staff in terms of the mix, in terms of being able to deal with the healthcare needs, of professionals. And, often, that means people get seen more quickly, by the most appropriate professional. In particular, I was really impressed with the pharmacist, the advanced nurse practitioner, and the physiotherapist, taking demand away from GPs. They got to do more of what they need to do, in seeing more complex patients, and those people were actually being properly and safely seen and treated. And it’s been popular with patients too. We heard that directly from the community health council.

So, it’s more of this we need to see, not less, in the future, in every part of Wales—not just Kidwelly, not just Hywel Dda, but across the country. That is more and more the future of primary care—GPs at the centre of primary care, with more professionals around them, to properly meet and see and deal with the appropriate needs of their patients, wherever they may be in the country.

Angela Burns (Conservative, Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire)

Minister, more policy development is recognising that we cannot work in silos and that many people will have co-morbidities, which will exercise the knowledge and skills of all allied healthcare professionals. What discussions have you had with professional bodies representing allied healthcare professionals, in order to determine that the training requirements for these bodies reflect not only the current but also the future needs of our population?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

I have regular discussions with representative allied health professionals. They are an effective and very professional lobby, I find. And they come to you with a range of evidence to back up the statements they make about the future of the service. They are also a group of people who are very willing to change the model of care, and to say there’s evidence that doing things in a different way will provide better outcomes for patients, and that’s really, really encouraging. They have mentioned to me the potential of looking again at some of the particular requirements. But, most of the conversation I have with them is about the numbers that we have and how those staff are used.

You will see in the future of the primary care workforce, in the second half of this year, a particular focus on allied health professionals and pharmacy, and other groups, to understand the numbers of people that we need and what we want to do then to recruit more people, where we know we need more numbers—we are, of course, training more people in a variety of different allied health professions—and also how are the current staff, and how their skills are used. So, I think there’s lot of reasons to be positive about what’s happening, as well as recognising the challenge that does exist. So, I’m happy to continue having a regular conversation with them and other representatives of the primary care workforce.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Could I, following on from the question that introduced this, thank the Cabinet Secretary for his visit this morning to Tynycoed surgery in Sarn? And he saw the enthusiasm and the expertise of a wide range of professionals, but not only the GPs, not only the allied care professionals, but social care, healthcare professionals, people involved in social enterprises, people involved in the third sector. And the whole thrust of this was to move away, towards a system where it’s to do with well-being rather than the repair costs further down the river.

Does he share my hope, and those of other colleagues here, that these innovative collaborations—like the Abertawe Bro Morgannwg University Local Health Board cluster model—pump primed by Welsh Government funding, will ultimately prove those benefits of keeping people healthier for longer in their communities, reducing the load on our ever-stretched NHS services and wider health services, and potentially delivering cost savings too, by making sure that people are kept healthier longer, rather than washing up into acute, secondary, or even our GP care services?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Yes. And it was a particularly interesting visit this morning, for the launch of the cardiovascular risk assessment programme in the Abertawe Bro Morgannwg health board area, not just to meet GPs from around the cluster, but also to meet with healthcare support workers, who are going to be a key part of taking forward that particular programme. It’s a good example of building on what’s already taking place in Cwm Taf, and in Aneurin Bevan as well. There’s lots of learning there about going and understanding part of the population who don’t go to see their GP very often, but are at real risk of acquiring future conditions. So, it is about anticipatory care, and avoiding longer term and more chronic conditions in the future.

And I was particularly impressed, not just with the focus on well-being, but really taking forward learning. I want to see that rolled out on a consistent basis. That’s one of the things that, if we’re honest, we haven’t done as consistently or as effectively as we should have done in the past. And there’s a real imperative to do more of that in the future. The other really important message that I took from this morning was that clusters are something that GPs themselves are seeing more and more of the real benefit of—the way they get to work together, the way they do it with other professionals in health and care and the third sector—and the way that we release money directly for them has been a big part of gaining trust within that. Trust is a huge commodity, and I was really pleased to hear that the GPs who were there today recognised that there is a Government here that is willing to listen to them and to act with them.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Questions now from the party spokespeople. Welsh Conservative spokesperson, Suzy Davies.

Suzy Davies (Conservative, South Wales West)

Diolch, Lywydd. Good afternoon, Minister. Obviously we welcome the additional £10 million in the next budget intended for social services, but that isn’t ring-fenced, so what reassurances have you had from local authorities that it will be spent on services that commentators in the sector say would be lost without it?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

The budget this year gave extra allocations to social services. We gave an initial £25 million to social services, £4.5 million to reflect the uplift that we’ve given in terms of the capital limit, and a further £10 million that was specifically in grant form this year to address the challenges that local authorities and the sector are facing with regard to implementing the new national living wage. So, because that £10 million is a grant this year, it does give us that extra oversight.

Suzy Davies (Conservative, South Wales West)

My understanding, based on answers to previous questions that I put to you is that the living wage created an issue with the initial allocation of budget, and that the £10 million was to sort of make up for that, at least in some part. So, it’s not actually directly for the uplift in the living wage; it’s for filling the gap that the living wage left, if I can put it that way.

You didn’t actually address my specific question about which services were endangered, though. As this extra money was given to meet a particular need, rather than just being a general uplift to the revenue support grant, and was raised in part by increasing the maximum contribution that people pay towards their care, I think, actually, it’s in order for both of us to follow that money and make sure it’s being spent with the intentions you originally had. So, when the sector experts told you that certain services were at risk, which examples impressed you sufficiently in order for you to consider even raising this additional money?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

The decision to invest further in social care this year is a direct reflection of the discussions that we have had with experts in the field. We held three round tables with local government, with providers and others, in order to listen to the challenges of the social care sector, and work out a way we can collaboratively respond to them. So, Welsh Government is providing extra funding—you’re correct in saying that—but we also require local government to commission services in a cost-effective way and to invest there. Also, there is an onus on providers themselves as well, in order to make social care the kind of career that people want to work in. It’s unacceptable at the moment that there is a third turnover in staff in the sector, and every time a new member of staff has to be appointed, it costs the provider £3,500, with all of the checks and the training and so on. So, it’s incumbent on all of us to work in partnership in order to ensure that we have sustainable and resilient social care for the future.

You referred to the increase in the cap on domiciliary care to £70 this year. That will give local authorities an extra £4 million on top of the other funding, to which I referred as well. I think it was a fair time to consider increasing that cap because the cap has been at £60 now for the last two years. So, I think that the increase is a reasonable increase to make.

Suzy Davies (Conservative, South Wales West)

Thank you for that answer, and I don’t challenge you on your answer on the rise in the cap on payments towards domiciliary care, but I’m still struggling to find out what exactly it is that this £10 million will go on. What I’m picking up from your answer is that it’s primarily to do with staff retention, and that may well be the case, but that’s what I want to be able to see happening as a result of this extra money coming into the system.

I think we probably agree that preventing avoidable reliance on social care is worth while, both to our citizens and obviously for the services that provide that care. In my meeting with members of the Welsh NHS Confederation today, the key players—and they are key players in this, there is no two ways about that—summed up the current situation like this: they said that Wales has the answers for growing demand for more complex social care, but it’s the structure that gets in the way. I heard the Cabinet Secretary’s reply to Lee Waters’s question, and to the supplementaries, about how allied healthcare professionals can be part of this and that complete understanding that they are willing and ready to take part in different ways of working.

Do you now have enough evidence about partnership working, pooled budgets and all the rest of it from local health authorities, local authorities and from the third sector even—evidence that is strong enough to start developing policy now on a Wales-wide basis, which is predicated on greater numbers and a greater responsibility for occupational therapists, physiotherapists and other allied healthcare professionals, releasing them from this silo of secondary intervention only?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

I think the intermediate care fund is providing us with just that evidence. We have a £60 million intermediate care fund, which is really transforming the way that local authorities and health boards work together, including meeting people’s needs.

Just this morning, I was in Ystradgynlais, seeing the good work that they’re doing there in terms of bringing together health and social care, and they did include the allied professionals as well. I sat in on one of the team meetings where cases were discussed, and it was absolutely incredible to see how quickly packages of care could come into place when they had all the right people around the table. So, we are gathering that evidence.

Our intermediate care fund projects are providing us with information on a quarterly basis and we’re analysing that, looking at what really works. Because we’re starting to get to the point now when we can demonstrate the number of nights saved to the NHS, for example, and we have surveys of satisfaction from people who’ve been recipients of care through the intermediate care fund. I think it’s fair to say that we’ve been blown away by the success that we are seeing in the various projects right across Wales. I’ve visited projects in Swansea, Bridgend, and a couple up in north Wales as well. Although the approaches are different in different places, I think it’s important that different projects in different areas learn from one another. I think that the fact that professionals are freed up to do their jobs and to learn from one another, and not to have these artificial barriers between health and social care, is really making a difference to the care that people receive.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Rhun ap Iorwerth.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Ynys Môn)

Thank you, Llywydd. My questions are also to the Minister. Pressures on emergency departments in our hospitals have an impact on both sides of Offa’s dyke and have been in the headlines again, and there are many reasons for those problems. But, I want to concentrate on the role of social care. Does the Minister agree that good social care services play an important role in preventing people from having to go to hospital in the first place and allows them to leave sooner?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

Yes, I absolutely agree that social care has a role to play in preventing unnecessary hospital admissions and ensuring that people can have a step-down service to return home as quickly as possible. We know that staying in hospital for too long is obviously bad for the individual in terms of their health and their well-being, which is exactly what the intermediate care fund is doing in terms of providing those step-up and step-down services. We’re able, as I say, to demonstrate the number of nights saved to the NHS, but behind every night saved to the NHS, obviously, is a story of an individual whose care has been improved as a result of it.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Ynys Môn)

We know, of course, what percentage of our budget is spent on the NHS, but the same attention or prestige is not given to social care budgets. In England, of course, we know that the Conservatives have cut the funding available for social care and the impact of that, I think most would agree, has been clear in terms of increasing the pressure on hospitals. Here, in Wales, the Welsh Government takes pride in the fact that social care budgets haven’t been cut to such a degree as they have in England, but why, therefore, has the number of adaptations to people’s homes declined by 21 per cent since April 2011? Why has the amount of equipment provided for users of services reduced by 15 per cent over the same period?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

You’re absolutely right to say that we do take a very different approach to the one that we see in England in terms of our support for social services because, of course, the UK Government has abdicated its responsibility for social services in putting the burden on councils to raise council tax to pay for social care locally, which I think is an unfair approach and one that we wouldn’t be seeking to adopt here.

On delayed transfers of care, we are seeing improvements in those figures and I think that is the result of the work that we are doing through the intermediate care fund. But with regard to the specifics on why we are seeing fewer aids and adaptations, I couldn’t tell you why we’re seeing that because people should be having their needs met through the Social Services and Well-being (Wales) Act 2014, which does require an individual assessment of each person’s needs, which will include aids and adaptations, and they should be available to the people who need them.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Ynys Môn)

Perhaps the Minister should be trying to find out why those adaptations have been declining and why the equipment has not been going out at rates at which it has in the past because that all has an effect and a knock-on further down the line within our health and social care system.

Let me draw your attention to another service that is vastly underappreciated—that of unpaid carers. Last year, Carers UK found that 55 per cent of carers in Wales found that their own physical health had suffered because of their caring duties. That’s the highest percentage anywhere in the UK. The amount of respite care provided in Wales—the number of nights of care provided in Wales—has dropped a staggering 24 per cent since 2011. This has happened at the same time as this and the previous Government presided over a programme, of course, of closing community hospitals, with an overall decline in the number of NHS beds available in Wales of 7 per cent. These community hospital beds, I need not point out, could have provided a smooth transition for patients back to the community, tackling delayed transfers of care, as well, of course, as providing desperately needed respite care for the army of unpaid carers that keeps our system afloat. So, will the Minister now admit that the drive to close community hospitals has been a big mistake and that, in the main, and for the sake of strengthening our social care system, it’s time to start reversing that programme?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

Well, just to pick up on the comment you made on aids and adaptations, I think that we should be looking at whether people’s needs are being met, not whether or not there has been an increase or a decrease in the percentage of certain aids and adaptations that are being installed. If you have specific examples locally as to where people haven’t had their needs met through aids and adaptations, then by all means please raise them with me.

I share your admiration for unpaid carers. They’re doing an absolutely wonderful job across Wales. We wouldn’t be where we are without them. This is why we have committed, as a Government, to introducing and to developing a national respite strategy, because we know that provision for respite locally does differ across Wales. When we listen to carers, they tell us that, more than anything, the one thing that they need and that they want is access to respite. This is why, when we asked the Family Fund to look at the kind of support they offer to families here in Wales, we asked them to focus on respite and short breaks, because these are the things that disabled families have been asking us to focus our attentions on.

You’ll be aware as well that we’re currently refreshing our carers strategy, and, again, this is through listening to carers as to what their priorities are. Early priorities that are emerging from those discussions, as you would expect, include respite. They also include young carers, older carers and carers of older people as well.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

UKIP spokesperson, Caroline Jones.

Caroline Jones (UKIP, South Wales West)

Diolch, Lywydd. Cabinet Secretary, one of our most effective weapons for fighting cancer is population-level screening. I welcome the recent announcement made by the Minister for public health about the move to better methods of screening for both bowel and cervical cancer. However, no matter how we improve the screening techniques, our biggest battle is convincing the public to participate in screening programmes. What plans does your Government have to reverse the downward trend in cervical screening and improve uptake in bowel cancer screening?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

I thank the Member for the question. As you know, the Minister leads on our population health screening programmes as part of her public health responsibilities. We, too, are concerned about the figures confirming that cervical screening rates have lowered, and we expect there to be more public information, but also conversations between health professionals and individuals about the real benefit of undergoing screening for a range of different potential conditions. On bowel screening, I actually think we will see an uptake because the test is easier to administer. Without going into the details of the old test and the newer test, it’s an easier test to administer, and we expect that we will see a rise in the number of men, in particular, who will undergo that particular screening programme.

Caroline Jones (UKIP, South Wales West)

Thank you for that answer, Cabinet Secretary. One area that could benefit from improved screening is prostate cancer. A recent study published in ‘The Lancet’ showed that using multiparametric MRI on men who had high prostate-specific antigen levels increases detection of aggressive tumours, and spares many from the need to have a biopsy and its associated side-effects. What plans does your Government have to roll out this new technique across the Welsh NHS?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

I thank the Member for the question. Prostate cancer is a particular area of focus, and not just because there is a very active—and I welcome their activity—third sector organisation around prostate cancer, who regularly encourage us to find out more for ourselves and to encourage others to think about the current ways of understanding whether people do have prostate cancer and the potential treatment options. Part of the challenge is that we currently have a less than adequate test for prostate cancer, and it’s part of the uncertainty that goes into that. We are interested in advancing the evidence base for more effective tests to understand whether people have prostate cancer and what particular type of prostate cancer, and the evidence you cite from ‘The Lancet’ is just one of those. We need to understand all of that evidence, and understand how much of that goes into diagnosis and how much goes into screening as well. This is one of those areas where demand and a desire to have a wider screening test—we need to know whether there’s evidence that the screening test is actually the right thing to do, as opposed to different forms of diagnosis where there is a suspicion of prostate cancer. As ever, in this area and others, we will continue to be guided by the very best evidence and the very best return in terms of patient outcomes from any new form of screening or diagnosis.

Caroline Jones (UKIP, South Wales West)

Finally, Cabinet Secretary, the holy grail in cancer screening is the development of a reliable testing regime for lung cancer. Cardiff University, in a recent trial, found that the use of low-dose CT scans for lung cancer screening has no long-term psychosocial impact on patients, making it an excellent tool for detecting lung cancer early, when there’s a better chance of survival. Does the Welsh Government have any plans to look at the feasibility of using low-dose CT lung screening for high-risk individuals?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

I think my closing comments to your previous question still hold. We look at all of the evidence available as to what is an appropriate way of either understanding our diagnosis where there is suspected lung cancer, or potential population screening. But I think, actually, with lung cancer, our biggest challenge is the fact that there is late presentation for lung cancer. It’s a really big concern. In particular, we recognise there is a real differential in terms of the most deprived groups and our least deprived communities, and those who are most likely to present and seek help. That is our biggest challenge, and it’s a challenge that the cancer implementation group has recognised themselves. Clinicians within the service and cancer charities and campaign groups recognise that we need to do more to get people to present at an earlier stage, on lung cancer in particular, when there is a better prospect of people having their life saved. But, as I say, I look forward to the evidence on what we could and should do, and how we then implement that progressively and successfully across the whole service.

Neil McEvoy (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

3. Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on out of hours GP services in South Wales Central? OAQ(5)0099(HWS)

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

I expect health boards in South Wales Central to provide safe and effective out-of-hours services. This includes ensuring that all patients are dealt with within a clinically appropriate time.

Neil McEvoy (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

Okay. The problem is—and this comes from people in the service—that there have been times over the last 12 months in Cardiff when there has been no doctor available at all in the out-of-hours general practice service. What can be done to make sure that that doesn’t happen in future?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Thank you for the question. I’m aware that there were in two occasions, one in August and one in December, when there was no GP available for a limited period of time for part of the night. What actually happened to make sure that the health board could provide a proper service was that there were other health professionals, and there was call-on support from neighbouring health boards, too. The challenge is across the country, in varying degrees. For example, Cwm Taf health board have been much more stable and secure, and they’ve got greater GP numbers going into their service. Cardiff and Vale held another recruitment day in the middle of this month, and they’re hoping that there will be more GPs coming into the service. It is something about how we make the whole model more sustainable as well. It isn’t just a GP out-of-hours service. It is about how we understand all of the needs. For example, 7 per cent of the calls over the last month have been on dental issues—and that’s something I’ve got particular sympathy for right now—but we do need to see the whole range of professionals covering and doing that. That should make it more attractive for GPs to undertake their part of the service.

In many ways, it’s a similar issue to the earlier questions and discussions we had on the wider primary care team. We need a wider team within out-of-hours to make sure the GP’s part of the role is both interesting and attractive for GPs to undertake it, so that they provide the right care and make the right decisions that only they can make as part of the out-of-hours service. But it’s definitely something that is on my radar, and I expect to see further improvements over the rest of the year.

Andrew RT Davies (Conservative, South Wales Central)

Cabinet Secretary, you talked about making the service more sustainable, the GP service and, indeed, the out-of-hours service. Obviously, the backbone of that is having doctors on the ground who can perform the service when it’s required. I heard, in a previous answer that you gave to Nathan Gill, about the insurance, and indemnity insurance in particular, for doctors who are coming to the end of their career who might wish to practise part time and could offer this service back into the NHS, thus alleviating some of the staff pressures. Are you going to bring forward a national indemnity insurance scheme, such as is available in other parts of the UK that is paid out of the NHS risk pool? This would go a long way towards actually tapping into that huge resource of retired doctors who would wish to continue to practise but, because of the cost they face in insuring themselves, it is just not financially viable for them to do that.

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

I indicated earlier, as you will have heard in my response to Nathan Gill, that we’re having active conversations with the BMA about trying to resolve the issue of indemnity. It’s a particular area of concern for them and the whole GP community. It isn’t just an issue about the end of a career, either—it is something running through the lifetime of a GP’s career, as indemnity costs are rising. I’m not going to spike those conversations by trying to talk halfway through about the range of options there are. But, we’re considering a range of options with the BMA, and, as I said, over the coming months, I’m hopeful we’ll be able to bring forward a proper proposal that we will have worked through in partnership with the BMA. Again, that’s the point—we want to work in partnership with our GPs and the rest of the healthcare community.

Jayne Bryant (Labour, Newport West)

4. What assessment has the Cabinet Secretary made on the progress to reduce accident and emergency admissions? OAQ(5)0102(HWS)

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Thank you for the question. We are committed to reducing accident and emergency admissions through a number of initiatives, including Choose Well, NHS 111 and a range of falls response services. Health boards and the Welsh Ambulance Services NHS Trust are supporting these and similar initiatives in order to ensure that the service operates at maximum efficiency.

Jayne Bryant (Labour, Newport West)

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. Several of my constituents have contacted me recently to praise the falls prevention service currently being piloted in Aneurin Bevan health board. Launched in October, this service has helped 183 out of 229 emergency calls to get back to their feet without having to be taken to an accident and emergency department. Not only does this prevent hospital admissions, but the team also conducts a home assessment to prevent further falls in future. Can the Cabinet Secretary keep a keen eye on the evidence and the results of the pilot in Gwent? What more can be done to prevent people being admitted to hospital following a fall when other action is more appropriate?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

I thank you for the question and, in particular, for highlighting one of those pilots that we are actively looking at. I was also pleased to see that it was highlighted in an ITV Wales report previously as well—that work with the Welsh Ambulance Services NHS Trust, and how their staff are used in a way that avoids emergency hospital admissions and avoids emergency ambulances being sent out as well. It’s about the smarter use of all of our resources, and that’s something that we really do have to do more of now and in future—it’s people in their individual homes, but also people in residential care.

We also have a range of pilots—for example, some involving the fire and rescue service in Wales as well. So, there’s a programme of different pilots in different parts of the country. We want to assess and understand what those are, and that will be undertaken through the emergency ambulance services committee. We then expect to learn from those and understand how much more, progressively, they can be rolled out across the country—what evidence works and what’s appropriate in each part of Wales, and then go out and do that successfully. Even while these are reducing the number of admissions that would otherwise come into an A&E department, we do know that we’re still seeing a rising tide of numbers coming into our departments. So, more work on this front is required, not less.

Mohammad Asghar (Conservative, South Wales East)

Welsh Government targets say that no patient should wait longer than 12 hours for treatment in an accident and emergency department in our hospitals. However, figures show that the number of patients waiting longer than 12 hours for treatment was 31 per cent higher in December 2016 compared to the same month a year earlier. This is in spite of a 5.5 per cent drop in admissions in our hospitals. What reason can the Cabinet Secretary give for this increase in waiting times when admissions really have fallen in our hospitals?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

I thank the Member for the question. Actually, we’ve seen an increase in the number of people going into hospitals and in admission rates. The challenge for us is, though, not just accepting that far too many people do wait too long, but what we’re able to do about them. That goes back, again, to previous questions about what we do to keep people out of hospital successfully and what we do to actually recognise the fact that we do have an older and broadly sicker and poorer population than England itself. That means we’re more likely to see people who do come in in the winter time in particular who will need to be admitted. How do we make sure that those people actually have a good patient experience when going through and receiving care in our hospitals? There’s no point pretending that this is an easy challenge to resolve, but it is why we do need a whole-system response—not just the front door of a hospital, but through the whole hospital system, people taking responsibility, and at the front end and at the back end with social care and primary care as well. So, I’m certainly not complacent about the challenges that we face, and I expect Members will continue to ask me a question until we see a fall in the number of 12-hour waiters that continues and is a sustained drop. Because I recognise there is unlikely to be a great patient experience for somebody who waits that long before they’re seen through to their discharge.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Cabinet Secretary, one of the ways to actually reduce the pressure on A&E units is to look at how the minor injuries units can be used effectively. Now, in Neath Port Talbot and in Singleton at the moment, there is consultation going on about reducing the hours, but part of the problem is the staffing and resourcing of those units. What action is the Welsh Government taking to actually improve the training of advanced nurse practitioners so that we can deliver MIU units that will work effectively, take pressure off A&E, allow patients to go through A&E and major units faster, and therefore also allow patients to be seen within hours rather than perhaps longer hours? And, from personal experience, I know that feeling.

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Thank you for the question. You’re right to point out that our minor injuries units around the country have a very good record of seeing people quickly, seeing, treating, discharging, or arranging for them to be admitted if that’s required. They are led, in most instances, by advanced nurse practitioners, providing high quality care and able to make decisions that people might think you would need a doctor for. Now, part of the challenge is how we understand what’s sustainable in that way, because you’re right in that some of those units have very small numbers of people attending at various hours in the day, and so health boards will need to understand properly how to make the best use of their staff to meet the demand that exists.

There is something to do also about minor injuries streams within major units as well, and, if we get that right, we’re more likely to see a quicker turnaround, not only for people in that particular unit within a hospital, but how we understand how we direct through to the right part of the service. So, again, it goes back to having that whole-system approach and understanding what we need in our minor injuries units, where those should be, what the evidence is for them being at the right time and the right place, but also there is still improvement we do need to see within the major units for that minor injuries stream.

Joyce Watson (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

5. What is the Welsh Government doing to help reduce alcohol misuse in Wales? OAQ(5)0106(HWS)

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

We’re investing almost £50 million a year in our substance misuse agenda, which includes taking a range of actions to help reduce alcohol misuse in Wales. Details are set out in our latest substance misuse delivery plan for 2016 to 2018.

Joyce Watson (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

I welcome that, but alcohol is ubiquitous in our society—it’s glamorised on tv, it’s promoted as something that you have to have in order to relax, or even to socialise. It’s advertised in sporting events, billboards, bus shelters, and magazines. Bearing that in mind, it’s not surprising that, based on alcohol sales, Public Health Wales have reported that 75 per cent of the Welsh population drink more than that which is considered safe to do so. I understand that the last Welsh Assembly Government were hoping to introduce minimum unit pricing for alcohol as a way of helping to reduce alcohol consumption in Wales, but I understand that we may not have, under the new reserved model, the power to now legislate. So my question is, first of all: do we have the power to legislate? If we don’t have the power to legislate, what other ways are we planning to help reduce alcohol dependency and abuse even further?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

Thank you for the question. We do currently, under our existing settlement, have the power to legislate, but, unfortunately, despite numerous arguments made to the UK Government, this is one of the powers that they have sought to remove from the Assembly for the future—but we do still very much support the introduction of minimum unit pricing as an additional lever in order to reduce alcohol-related harm, and we’re actively considering the need to bring forward legislation on this matter. It is part of a wider suite of measures that we are taking. For example, our area planning boards are doing some great work locally, and, in Newtown, in your area of Mid and West Wales, tackling under-age drinking is really important—and we’ve invested there by supporting the development of a community alcohol partnership, which is bringing together local stakeholders, trading standards, police, schools and alcohol retailers, in order to support young people in particular to avoid having a harmful relationship with alcohol.

Paul Davies (Conservative, Preseli Pembrokeshire)

Minister, you may be aware of Alcohol Concern’s Communities Together project in north Pembrokeshire, which will be hosting a conference in March to learn more about how local communities can actually reduce alcohol harm, and how we can develop healthier relationships with alcohol. Do you agree with me that projects like this are a great way to promote healthier living, and can you tell us what the Welsh Government is doing specifically to promote and encourage these types of projects across Wales?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

Well, partnership working, as you describe, is absolutely essential, because there are so many parties involved in terms of helping people who already have an unhealthy relationship with alcohol stop drinking, but also to promote responsible drinking as well. The community alcohol partnership, which I’ve just described to Joyce Watson, is one example of how we’re doing that. In December, as well, I published our new night-time economy framework for Wales, and the purpose of that is really to provide a structure for all key stakeholders in order to aid the development and preservation of sustainable, healthy, and safe night-time economies across Wales as well. And, again, that’s about bringing partners together to address these issues.

Caroline Jones (UKIP, South Wales West)

6. What actions are the Welsh government taking to reduce hospital waiting times in South Wales West? OAQ(5)0114(HWS)

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

I expect health boards to continually improve access to services, and reduce waiting times across the full range of services provided. Health boards should do so in accordance with their own integrated medium-term plans, including the measures set out in the clinician-led planned care programme.

Caroline Jones (UKIP, South Wales West)

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. Wales spends significantly more on health per head than they do across the border in England. However, this has not led to significantly better outcomes. Welsh patients are generally waiting longer for treatment than English patients—twice as long for a cataract operation and nearly three times as long for a hip operation. Can you explain why, Cabinet Secretary, we are not as efficient when it comes to health spending?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

There’s a range of different points to make in response to the question. The first, I’d say, is that actually you’re talking about waits, and that doesn’t necessarily translate into outcomes. Clinical outcomes for patients in Wales are generally very good, and we compare favourably to many parts of England in that regard. However, I do recognise that some people wait too long. That’s part of the point of the planned care programme: to make sure that we do something both to improve the quality, because quality is an important driver for improvement in our system, and it will remain so, but also we want to reduce the length of time that people can expect to wait. I fully expect that, by the end of this financial year, when we get to the end of March, our figures will see another improvement on waiting times within the service here in Wales, but, on some areas, we need to recognise there’s much more that we need to do. Hip surgery is one example. We compare in a way that I do not think is acceptable, but, on a range of other things, for example on kidney transplants and on heart operations as well, we’ve done remarkably well over this last couple of years, and we’re ahead of England in that regard. So, there’s a rounded picture here to recognise and to honestly reflect on areas where we outperform England and those where we need to do better—not simply because of a comparison with England, because it’s the right thing to do for our service in balancing the time people wait with the quality of that intervention and the outcomes that our patients do receive.

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

In a report in January 2015 into NHS waiting times for elective care, the Auditor General for Wales spoke of the Pareto principle, which calculates the number of bed days taken up by individual patients, and discovered that 5 per cent of patients use 51 per cent of bed days, and also discovered that that calculation wasn’t widely used by health boards generally. I wonder what conclusion the Cabinet Secretary reaches in relation to that and whether he feels that principle would be an important principle for health boards to take into account.

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Yes, I think it’s a really important point about the detail and the data that we do have available to us and how they should be used to drive improvement. Those data should show, actually, for that small number of patients, an improvement around those people could release lots of bed days to make sure other people come through the system and receive care in a more timely manner. We need to understand what is the issue around that small cohort of patients and why they take so long. Is it about complexity, are there more improvements we can make system-wide, is it about clinician-to-clinician improvement as well? So, we always need to understand what the data tell us about that problem and then to understand what the answer to that is, and then to understand what times we expect to see improvement within. Again, it’s why I go back to this: the planned care programme isn’t an optional extra for health boards, it is what I expect them to deliver, and understanding data and understanding clinical agreement and leadership across the country on improving a whole range of these areas, in orthopaedics and ophthalmology in particular, where there are large numbers of people who are waiting—large numbers for whom we can improve their experience and we can also do something about their outcomes, too. So, I’m very interested in seeing that evidence properly deployed by health boards and demonstrating the improvement we all expect to see.

Suzy Davies (Conservative, South Wales West)

Yesterday, Care and Repair told me about their warm homes on prescription scheme, which uses the local intelligence of health and care professionals to help identify people at risk of health decline due to inadequately heated homes, and then they intervene to help with more efficient heating. If it works, it will reduce the number of people needing hospital care, which will include elective care for certain chronic conditions, and, of course, reduce the number of people experiencing delayed transfers of care as well. Now, the scheme’s funded from Welsh Government’s housing budget and is a good example of a non-health budget being used to solve a health problem. If it’s successful, will it continue to be funded from the health budget or will this sort of spirit of cross-portfolio budgeting be tested over much if this pilot is extended beyond the trial period that it’s now being used for?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

I’m very grateful to her for highlighting this particular use of Welsh Government money to deliver improvements for people in their housing and their health. We recognise, in housing, in education, and in a range of other areas, there are significant links to the health of the nation too and how they impact across each other. We always need to understand why something has been successful and to what extent we can roll it out on a wider basis. So, I’m particularly interested in understanding the lessons from the particular pilot we funded and then what that means for how we use money across Government. Sometimes, we can get—whether in this party or in others—a bit too focused on where the sums of money are actually allocated rather than what they deliver. I am interested in the quality that we deliver, and the outcomes we deliver, for people. That’s why we’ve invested more money in the budget in improving the quality of housing and the numbers of houses that we have as well. We recognise there’s a real impact in quality across a whole range of things and not just about the housing factor as well. So, I expect that you’ll see from Government our own assessment with health boards and with housing partners of the success or otherwise of that scheme and what we’ll then want to do in the future.

Michelle Brown (UKIP, North Wales)

7. What progress is being made by Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board in respect of cancer waiting times? OAQ(5)0105(HWS)

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Cancer performance at Betsi Cadwaladr University Local Health Board remains at higher levels than in other health boards in Wales. The latest figures for Betsi Cadwaladr show nearly 99 per cent of people meeting the 31-day measure and nearly 92 per cent against the 62-day measure. Cancer waiting times will, of course, remain a key priority for me.

Michelle Brown (UKIP, North Wales)

As has often been pointed out in this place and elsewhere, there is still a long list of patients who have been failed by Betsi Cadwaladr during the treatment of cancer and other illnesses. No clinician would wilfully neglect or let down a patient in their care. That these errors have happened and are continuing to happen is down to mismanagement by the local health board. What will the Cabinet Secretary say to those families who have been let down by Betsi Cadwaladr and who are perhaps now waiting for delayed results and, like a constituent of mine, for the outcome of delayed treatment, frightened that their loved one may not live as long because their cancer may have spread?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Thank you for the question. I don’t quite share your reflection on the whole picture. As I’ve indicated, Betsi Cadwaladr do extremely well when it comes to waiting times for cancer. The challenge is, anyone who waits too long—. Even if you’re seen within time it can be an anxious process and that has a real impact on the individuals and their families. If you’re seen out of that time, of course, people are more worried about the potential impact on their outcomes. We know there have been ombudsman investigations that indicate there have been times where the health board have not acted in a way in which they could and should have done. It’s important that, in recognising the high quality of care that is delivered and the good performance when it comes to waiting times, we don’t avoid looking at those areas where the health board could and should improve as well. There’s learning to take from that, and I understand that if you’re one of those families where you feel the health board have not acted as they could and should have done it won’t really matter to you if the general experience, the overwhelming experience, of people is an entirely different one. There is a real point about learning and accountability for that and in our own drive for improvement and the health board’s one too. So, I expect Betsi Cadwaladr, as in fact every other health board, to properly learn when mistakes are made and then to do everything they could and should do to make sure they don’t occur in the future.

Mark Reckless (UKIP, South Wales East)

8. Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on what proportion of GPs are directly employed by local health boards? OAQ(5)0103(HWS)

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Only 15 general practices across Wales are being directly managed by local health boards. My overriding concern is that health boards ensure that the whole primary care team, of which GPs are a crucial part, deliver care that meets the needs of the population that they serve.

Mark Reckless (UKIP, South Wales East)

I’ve seen in my own area of south-east Wales in several Valleys communities that the Aneurin Bevan Local Health Board has used direct employment of GPs to improve availability and to attract people to those areas, potentially for a few years rather than for their whole careers. Is this something that the health Secretary sees as to be deployed on a sort of case-by-case basis, or is it the policy of the Government to try and shift provision over time and increase the proportion of directly-employed GPs compared to independent practitioners?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

I’m not at all worried about whether people are directly employed by the health board or in independent practice. The independent contractor model accounts for about 95 per cent of all general practitioners within the country. I’m interested in seeing the quality of that care improve. On what I said earlier about clusters, it’s really encouraging that GPs are taking more ownership of their future with the whole primary care team. And it’s for them to determine whether they think there are new and additional models—they can still maintain independent contractor status—that will deliver the quality of care and the spread and the reach of care that we want to see, whether that’s the federated model in Bridgend, whether that’s a community interest company such as Red Kite in Brecon, or whether that’s different sorts of models that exist. We’re understanding those through listening and working with the profession. That’s why the ministerial taskforce is really important. It isn’t just about a recruitment campaign; it is about understanding what we can do to enable and empower general practice to make an even bigger difference, to make their jobs even more interesting—and the role of allied health professionals and others around it. Crucially, what this Government can do is to properly listen. That’s why the choice I made on relaxing the quality and outcomes framework to the end of March has been welcomed by GPs. Again, GPs this morning, when I was with Huw Irranca, made a particular point of saying ‘thank you’ for that decision. It’s been a real help to them. It shows that, when this Government listens, it makes a difference to GPs now, and that sort of relationship I believe will be crucial to attracting more GPs to come here to train, work and live in the future.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary.

4. Statement by the Llywydd

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Before we move to the next item, it is my pleasure to announce the result of the legislative ballot held today. Dai Lloyd may seek the Assembly’s agreement to introduce a Member Bill on the protection of Welsh historical place names. Congratulations to Dai Lloyd and the best of luck.

5. 3. 90-second Statements

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Item 3 is the 90-second statements. Vikki Howells.

Vikki Howells (Labour, Cynon Valley)

Diolch, Lywydd. My first 90-second statement just before Christmas focused on Guto Nyth Brân and the Nos Galan. With the sad death of Bernard Baldwin MBE just days after the 2016 Nos Galan, it is only fitting that I use a second statement to pay tribute to Bernard’s legacy as creator of Wales’s most famous racing event.

Born in Barry in 1925, Bernard trained as a teacher and took up a post in Mill Street school, Pontypridd. A keen athlete, Bernard was Welsh junior mile champion and spent nine years as secretary of the Welsh Amateur Athletics Association, representing them in the UK and around the world. He received an MBE in 1971 for services to athletics. Bernard also set up a range of athletic events. Most famous is the Nos Galan road race, with its commemoration of Guto Nyth Brân and crowd-pulling mystery runner. But Bernard also established the Taff Street dash, the Cardiff to Mountain Ash two-man relay and too many others to list, but all of which aimed to bring athletics to the people.

Bernard wrote prolifically on athletics and his adopted home of Mountain Ash, and was given the freedom of the borough by RCT in 2014. Crowds attended his funeral at St Margaret’s church last Wednesday to celebrate Bernard’s memory and pay tribute to a life well lived, full of passion and service to the community. Bernard’s ashes will be scattered on Guto’s grave at Llanwonno Church and through the Nos Galan, Bernard’s memory will live on.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Russell George.

Russell George (Conservative, Montgomeryshire)

I’m delighted to have this opportunity to pay tribute to David Pugh, a former mayor of Newtown and celebrated local historian, who sadly passed away last week. David Pugh was a leading local historian for many decades, instrumental in establishing the Newtown history group in 1995 and its journal ‘The Newtonian’, both of which continue to flourish today. Best known for being seen with his camera recording buildings for historic records, there is now a 64-volume quarterly journal called ‘The Newtonian’, which comprises a library of over 28,000 references and 26,000 photographs of the town and its people.

Thanks to David Pugh’s sustained commitment and determination, ‘The Newtonian’ has undoubtedly provided an authoritative record of the town’s history for future generations. David’s legacy is that the recorded history of Newtown will now be around for years and years to come. In establishing the Newtown history group, he received the Queen’s Award for Voluntary Service in 2013, and he was also a prominent member of the Newtown and District Civic Society. David was a longstanding member of the Labour Party and his wife, Anna, told me this week that when David went to vote, he always wore red socks. His contribution to civic society in Newtown has been outstanding, and he will be missed by me and the Newtown community.

6. 4. Statement by the Chair of the Children, Young People and Education Committee: Future Inquiries and Engagement Work

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The next item on our agenda this afternoon is a statement by the Chair of the Children, Young People and Education committee and I call on the committee Chair, Lynne Neagle.

Lynne Neagle (Labour, Torfaen)

Thank you, Llywydd. I welcome this opportunity to update Members on the work of the Children, Young People and Education Committee. As Chair of the committee, I am delighted by the progress made in scrutinising key areas of policy and legislation over such a short period of time.

Lynne Neagle (Labour, Torfaen)

Over the summer, we consulted on what our committee’s priorities should be. I was pleased to see diverse and detailed submissions from nearly 90 organisations and individuals from across Wales. This led to the committee embarking on two inquiries that stakeholders had identified: statutory advocacy services for children and young people and educational outcomes for Gypsy/Traveller and minority ethnic learners. We have finished taking evidence on both of these subjects and will be reporting soon.

Looking further ahead and more strategically, our committee, in the process of its planning, set out principles and ambitions for our work over the fifth term of this Assembly. Underpinning everything will be the involvement of children and young people. Through our work we will ensure the views and experiences of children and young people are captured in a useful, sensitive and constructive way.

In our snapshot inquiry into youth services in Wales, more than 1,500 people gave us their views on the services they use. Their input formed an essential part of our findings and recommendations, which were published in December. The feedback from young people was incredibly clear: when youth work provision disappears from a young person’s life, the impact is considerable. These services are often a catalyst to help them develop skills and confidence and make better choices in their lives.

It continues to be essential for us to work with stakeholder organisations, carers, teachers and parents. I am wholly committed to ensuring we are an outward-facing and engaging committee. During our Stage 1 scrutiny of the additional learning needs Bill, our Members will be hosting events with parents and carers in north and south Wales.

I am also pleased to inform Members there will be a series of workshops taking place for young people with additional learning needs. This will be an important part of our work scrutinising the ALN Bill and I look forward to seeing the views of young people guiding our work. We will also be holding a conference for practitioners and stakeholders working with children and young people to tell us their views on the Bill.

It would be remiss of me not to thank TSANA and SNAP Cymru for their fantastic partnership working with our committee over the past few months. This partnership has allowed us to meaningfully engage with those who will be directly affected by the legislation.

Our partnership work and outward-facing approach through the course of this legislative scrutiny will ensure service users’ needs are at the heart of our work and scrutiny of the ALN Bill will form the substantive part of our work until the end of spring.

Llywydd, the committee members and I are committed to undertaking work that will make a substantial contribution to improving the lives of children and young people in Wales.

In one of our current consultations, we are examining the importance of the first 1,000 days of a child’s life from pregnancy through to the second birthday. This formative time is a critical part of a child’s upbringing and sets the stage for intellectual development and lifelong health.

The Committee will consider the extent to which Welsh Government policies and programmes support the early parent role in the first 1,000 days and, crucially, how effective these are in supporting children’s long term emotional and social capabilities and development. This important inquiry will, I hope, set the stage for a major national conversation about how we can really set our future citizens up for happy and healthy lives.

The committee is seeking input from teachers and other education professionals for our inquiry into teachers’ professional learning and education. The Welsh Government is reforming the way new teachers are trained before they qualify and also their ongoing professional development throughout their careers.

These professionals are sometimes locked into inflexible schedules and due to capacity and planning issues often cannot get the time to further themselves professionally. This cannot continue given the ongoing changes to the Welsh education system, so we will be looking specifically at arrangements for continuing professional development for the current workforce; the role of initial teacher education; and the sufficiency of the future education workforce. As part of our consultation, we will be working with the Public Accounts Committee to jointly engage with the teaching profession as part of their work into consortia.

Members will be pleased to hear that our committee will not just be undertaking a series of fixed pieces of work, but also ensuring that ongoing scrutiny of developing areas of policy takes place. To that end, we are continuing—[Interruption.]—sorry; it’s a very bad time to develop a cough. To that end, we are continuing to closely examine the implementation of both the Donaldson and Diamond reviews. This will play a crucial role in delivering success of the important reforms being put forward. Linked to our ongoing scrutiny of curriculum reforms, we will be examining more closely Wales’s performance in PISA and examining exactly how curriculum reforms will impact on our international standing.

Child health will play a big part in our work over the coming years. I very much look forward to working with organisations like the Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health and welcoming the Welsh Government’s chief medical officer to the committee in March to outline his vision for improving child health.

Members of the committee are incredibly passionate about the quality and provision of mental health services for young people. The committee has already undertaken scrutiny of the Cabinet Secretary for Health, Well-being and Sport, and I am sure that he is aware that we will be continuing to focus on this vital area. The committee will continue to examine the support available to young people in crisis, and in particular delays in accessing child and adolescent mental health services, as well as the support available to children and young people who do not reach the threshold for specialist services.

The youth parliament initiative being led by the Llywydd is a genuinely exciting moment in the history of the Assembly. Not only is it one that should create meaningful and long-lasting ties between schools, young people and the Assembly, but it is a true recognition of the value children and young people have in our democracy. I want to offer our committee’s full and unwavering support to the establishment of the youth parliament, and I look forward to us playing a full role in getting it off the ground.

In closing my statement today, Llywydd, I would like to thank the young people, carers, parents and experts who have readily contributed to our broad remit of work since the establishment of the committee. I hope that, over the fifth term of this Assembly, the Children, Young People and Education Committee will be a real conduit for the voices of young people to shape policy and legislation in Wales.

Darren Millar (Conservative, Clwyd West)

Thank you to the Chair of the committee for her statement. Can I put on record what an effective Chair she has been during her tenure so far, as Chair of that committee—bringing the committee together, enabling us to work in a way where there is consensus around the table so that we can maximise our impact? I want to pay tribute to you, Lynne, for your work and your commitment and dedication to the task.

As the Chair has already said, there’s been a great deal of discussion and debate around the table as to where the emphasis of the committee’s work ought to be. Very early on in those discussions, we determined, as a committee, that we would continue to pick up on those issues that were legacy issues from former committees. I think it’s really important that all committees in the Assembly get smarter about following up on recommendations and work that they’ve done in the past. The Chair has touched on a number of these, including our follow-up work on Donaldson, and there are others, of course, on children and adolescent mental health services, neonatal care and a whole range of issues that have been the subjects of pieces of work in the past. I’m very pleased that the Chair has put on record her determination to make sure that those are continuously back on the agenda of the committee, so that we can hold the Government and other stakeholders to account for their delivery and promises on those issues.

I was very pleased that one of the first pieces of work that the committee has done has been on this whole issue of advocacy for children and young people. We know that there’s been some inertia in recent years in trying to get to grips with this problem and to have a proper fully functioning service across Wales for children and young people that is equitable in terms of access, and I’m very pleased that, even though that report is yet to be published, it’s already had an impact in encouraging the Government, and local government as well, to get together and move things forward significantly. And I know, in terms of the work that we’re doing on Gypsy/Traveller and ethnic minority grants in education, that that work also is drawing attention to something that has not received a lot of attention, frankly, in recent years, and it’s important to shine a light on these particular issues.

I have to say, I’ve been disappointed with the engagement, sometimes, of the Welsh Government with some of our inquiries. We’ve done a really excellent piece of work, I think, on youth services and youth work around Wales. And it has been disappointing that the Welsh Government has, perhaps, been making decisions before the outcome of our work has been published—sometimes rash decisions, which it’s then had to row back from. And I think that there’s a lesson there for the Welsh Government.

We have a role to play as parliamentarians in the Assembly, helping to contribute to shape the work that the Government does, and I think we’ve got a very useful contribution to make. So, that has been a little bit disappointing, and I was very pleased that the Chair has reflected very well the strong feelings of the committee when things have gone awry, to bring things back on track, in terms of that very important relationship.

I think it is important also to note the commitment that the Chair has given today to working very closely and carefully with children and young people, to make sure that their voices are heard regularly in the committee’s programme of work. We did undertake some outreach work as part of our youth services inquiry, but, of course, the Additional Learning Needs and Education Tribunal (Wales) Bill provides us with further opportunities to do just that. And the Chair is quite right to raise the fact that, when the National Assembly has a youth parliament for Wales, which it is able to work collaboratively with, that gives us another forum, which can be usefully used to ensure that children and young people’s views are brought into our work.

So, I haven’t got a series of questions for the Chair, I’m afraid, other than to say, ‘Keep up the excellent work.’ I’m very pleased with the start that’s been made, and you’ve certainly got my party’s commitment to work collaboratively with you, and other members of the committee, to ensure that we do an effective job.

Lynne Neagle (Labour, Torfaen)

I don’t know what to say, other than ‘thank you’. [Laughter.] Thank you, Darren, for those kind words. Can I just say that I am very, very keen for the committee to work together as a team? We had an excellent strategic planning day, and it was very apparent that we all genuinely want to make a difference to the lives of children and young people, and I hope that we will be able to carry on in the vein that we’ve started in, and do that. Am I meant to respond to the other points?

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

If you want to. But, as the Member said there were no questions, it’s entirely up to you.

Lynne Neagle (Labour, Torfaen)

Okay, thank you.

Llyr Gruffydd (Plaid Cymru, North Wales)

Well, can I thank you for your statement, and align myself wholeheartedly with the comments made earlier about your role in fulfilling your capacity as Chair? And I agree wholeheartedly with the contents of your statement. But I offer a few comments—and questions—not maybe on a particular inquiry, but certainly on a thematic level.

Now, I’m particularly keen for the committee to examine the opportunities for the Welsh Government to transition more decisively to a preventative approach to its work, in terms of investment and policy, across, of course, the breadth of policies relating to the committee. Now, the Welsh Government, in fairness, is increasingly talking about that, moving in that direction, and especially the Cabinet Secretary for Communities and Children here, who, in fairness, has been quite keen on this, to say the least, and I welcome that. But do you agree with me that more could be done to implement and accelerate a move in that direction, and what do you believe the committee can contribute, to encourage the Government to move, increasingly, in that direction?

Now, another key area of course, I believe, is to contribute to achieving greater parity of esteem between vocational and academic education and qualifications. And I hope that this can be one of the big legacies of this Assembly, certainly in terms of a longer-term approach, and certainly it’s one we should be approaching, in my view—or pursuing, I should say—as a committee. And I’d be interested in hearing your views about how you think we can most effectively try and do that.

Thirdly, on a less positive note, in relation to our inquiry on youth work, and we’ve already heard reference to it—and I would declare an interest as one of the honorary presidents of the Council for Wales of Voluntary Youth Services—could I ask whether you do share my disappointment, having written to the Minister for Lifelong Learning and Welsh Language three separate occasions, that we’re still waiting for answers to six pretty direct, pretty straightforward questions about the way the decision was made around the funding of CWVYS? The first letter was sent in early November, a subsequent letter in December. We’ve been forced again to write this month, and, of course, we’re still waiting for answers. If the committee is to fulfil its role in scrutinising the Welsh Government, in holding Ministers to account, then such evasive responses, which make no effort in fact to answer the questions that we’ve asked, from the Minister, not only obstructs our work but is, in my view, wholly unacceptable. So, do you share my disappointment in that respect? And, secondly, what course of action do you propose the committee should take if, at the third time of asking, we still don’t get answers to our questions?

Finally, I hope the committee can reflect through our work the core principles of youth work, in terms of offering young people empowering, educative, expressive, inclusive and participative experiences. And you referred to the very meaningful engagement with young people that clearly will be—has been, and will continue to be—a central feature of our work. But I’m just wondering whether we can take that further. Could we, for example, delegate the choice of a future inquiry to young people? Could we develop opportunities for young people to shadow committee members in some way? Should there be a young people’s vision of the Children, Young People and Education Committee, maybe as part of the proposed young people’s assembly, so that we can truly maximise the involvement of children and young people in our deliberations as a committee over the months and years to come?

Lynne Neagle (Labour, Torfaen)

Can I thank Llyr for his kind comments to me, and thank him, too, for his questions, which I will do my best to answer? I completely agree in relation to prevention. We know that it’s absolutely key in all sorts of areas, and it’s something that we always need to be trying to do more of. I think that is one of the reasons why our inquiry into the first 1,000 days will be so important, because we know that that first two years of a child’s life is absolutely critical, and I hope that we can add value to the work that the Government is doing on this to try and really make that a time when we can focus on prevention.

The other area, of course, is child and adolescent mental health services. We know that there are lots of children and young people who are being referred into specialist CAMHS who don’t perhaps need specialist CAMHS, who should be getting support in the school system, through youth services. And I think that the work that we are doing in scrutinising the Together for Children and Young People will hopefully help drive that work forward in schools, in youth centres, and with counsellors, and make an important contribution to that.

I agree with you about the importance of parity of esteem between vocational and education. It’s not an area that, as you know, we’ve spent a lot of time on so far, only in consideration of things like Diamond, where the committee was able to welcome the emphasis that Professor Diamond put on funding students in vocational training as well. And I hope that we will be able to continue that. I would like to see it being a thread in lots of our inquiries, and you’ll know that in our early scrutiny of the additional learning needs Bill, one of the issues that is coming up regularly is to ask why the Bill doesn’t cover things like apprenticeships. And I think we need to keep doing that, really, to mainstream into all our work.

In relation to the points you’ve raised about the Minister for Lifelong Learning and the Welsh Language and CWVYS, obviously I shared the committee’s concerns about the way that the dialogue with CWVYS was handled. I was very clear about that at the time, and I was very keen to pursue those concerns with the Minister. Clearly, it would have been better if we’d had straight answers from the very beginning. I think it is very important that Ministers engage as openly as possible with committees. I know that the Minister has received our most recent letter, and I really hope that we will now get a definitive answer and be able to move on, really, to consider what is a huge issue, which is the whole future of youth services in Wales.

And then, finally, your points on young people and their involvement, I think, are really important. I know that the culture and media committee did an exercise in public engagement, asking people to choose an inquiry, and I would certainly be very enthusiastic about doing that with young people. I’m also very, very keen, really, to look at any innovative things that we can try, such as shadowing opportunities or maybe even having a shadowing committee. I’d like to see us having young people in here and involving them. Anything that I think encourages young people to get involved is going to be vitally important, especially with the challenges that we face going forward.

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

If I could just ask you two questions relating to your statement: you refer to the committee inquiry into the educational outcomes for Gypsy/Traveller and minority ethnic learners. I wonder if you could tell me, did you take evidence from John Summers High School in Flintshire, which has played a great and leading role in engaging with the local Gypsy/Traveller community and improving educational outcomes for young people? The community and the school have expressed concerns that that has not been factored into decisions over the school closure, which could adversely impact the connection with the community that’s been achieved.

Secondly and finally, you referred to the scrutiny that will carry on with the additional learning needs Bill. You referred to children, quite rightly, being involved, and stakeholders and practitioners. You don’t mention parents. Can you confirm that parents will be involved so that you can share their practical experience of concern that this might lead, on the basis of experience to date, to rationing, if not handled properly, where the move away from statements to school action and school action plus, has, in some cases, led to a greater number of exclusions, particularly amongst children on the autistic spectrum and otherwise, and has often frustrated access to services?

Lynne Neagle (Labour, Torfaen)

Can I thank Mark Isherwood for those questions? As far as I’m aware, we didn’t receive any evidence from the John Summers school because our inquiry was specifically around the decision of the Welsh Government to amalgamate the funds that were given to support Gypsy/Traveller learning and minority ethnic learning into one big grant, called the education improvement grant. It’s been a fairly short inquiry and we’re due to report soon. I will check with the committee service whether we may have received something in writing, but I don’t believe that we did. It was a very focused inquiry.

Thank you for your points about the ALN Bill. My statement did in fact refer to consultation with parents. We’ve got events with parents in north and south Wales and there is a written consultation as well, which will also be an opportunity for parents. Of course, parents are very actively involved in some of the organisations that are giving evidence.

You’ve made the point, I know, previously about the possible dilution of support by moving to a system where everybody has an individual learning plan and that is something that we are examining. In every meeting, really, in this scrutiny so far, it’s come up, and I think I can say that everybody wants this Bill to work. There’s really unprecedented cross-party support for getting something that works for children and young people and their families. And I’m sure that the Government is very, very keen to get something that works. I can certainly give the commitment that we will all be scrutinising that very closely. This is about improving things for children and young people and not by any means rationing or making things in any way worse.

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Thank you very much for persevering through that with your voice. I’m sure that the committee will go on and you’ll come back to us with more statements. So, thank you very much for that.

7. 5. Debate by Individual Members under Standing Order 11.21(iv): Contaminated Blood

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Item 5 on the agenda is a debate by individual Members under Standing Order 11.21 on contaminated blood. And I call on Julie Morgan to move the motion. Julie.

Julie Morgan (Labour, Cardiff North)

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer, for calling me to open this individual Member’s debate, calling for a full public inquiry into the contaminated blood tragedy of the 1970s and 1980s, and thank you to the cross-party Members who have jointly submitted this motion with me: Dai Lloyd, Mark Isherwood, Hefin David, Jenny Rathbone and Rhun ap Iorwerth, who will conclude the debate, and I know that there are other speakers as well.

Seventy Welsh people have died in what has been called the biggest national tragedy ever in the NHS—273 people were infected by contaminated blood in Wales. Many of them are still suffering and the pain still continues for them and their families. In the 1970s and 80s, 4,670 people in the UK suffering from haemophilia contracted hepatitis C, and between 1983 and the early 1990s, 1,200 were infected with HIV. The names of 49 of the 70 who died are appearing on the screens in the Chamber now, and will appear again in the concluding speech. We want this to be an opportunity for Assembly Members to hear the stories of some of those people, and I hope that the National Assembly for Wales will send a clear message to the Government in Westminster that we need a public inquiry to look into this contaminated blood scandal.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Can I ask whether you’ll give way or not?

Julie Morgan (Labour, Cardiff North)

Yes. Briefly.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Thank you Julie for giving way. Could I just say the debate today, but also the call for the public inquiry, has the support of my constituents in Llanharry and also in Maesteg, who I’ve dealt with over many, many years? My constituent from Llanharry whose son was infected by hepatitis C aged 12 and whose liver is borderline cirrhotic, who also had her two nephews infected at the same time, one of whom subsequently died and the other had a liver transplant, may draw attention to Lord Winston’s description of this as the worst treatment disaster in the history of the NHS. You have their support, and this call for a public inquiry has their support, as do many others.

Julie Morgan (Labour, Cardiff North)

I thank the Member for that contribution. At this point, can I pay tribute to Lynne Kelly and Haemophilia Wales for the work that they’ve done, not only to highlight the issue and the need for a public inquiry, but also for the work they’ve undertaken to try to achieve fair payments for those who have suffered, and for their families? We know that the consultation about the money payments in Wales is only just concluding, and that the health Minister will be making a decision about what those payments are. We know that the families are unhappy about the English scheme, and tend to feel that they’ve been thrown crumbs from the table.

The reason that people affected by this scandal, led by Haemophilia Wales, feel that they now need a public inquiry is simple: it is a quest for the truth. They’ve been on a long journey, from individuals and their families first being told that they’d been given contaminated blood and that they could develop HIV or liver disease, to dealing with increasingly poor health, to fighting for compensation payments. In the past, many of them felt that they could trust the Government to do the right thing, that they would get the support they need because their lives had been damaged beyond repair through no fault of their own. That view has now changed. They want a public inquiry in order to get at the truth about what happened when they received contaminated blood. The Archer report was an independent inquiry, but it did not serve the purpose of a full public inquiry. It was not a statutory inquiry under the Inquiries Act 2005, it had no power to compel anyone to give evidence, or to produce documents. The Department of Health actually declined to provide witnesses to give evidence in public. In addition, its remit was not to find out what happened, who was at fault, but to find a way forward.

So why do they want a public inquiry? They want a public inquiry to find out why blood continued to be given in the 1970s and 1980s when the dangers of infection were known. The Archer report said that the blood industry was a powerful lobby. Why did blood continue to be imported from the United States, where a large proportion of the blood was from paid donors and came from those who most needed money, those who were most susceptible to infection, and often infection that was not treated? Why did the ministerial papers disappear? In 1975 Lord Owen, who was health Minister at the time, set aside money for the UK to become self-sufficient, so there would no longer be any need to import blood. In 1987, long out of office, when he learnt that self-sufficiency had not been achieved, he sought access to the ministerial papers at the time and found that they had been destroyed under the 10-year rule. Does anyone know what the 10-year rule is? All this needs to be finally cleared up. David Cameron apologised last year for the tragedy, but he did not grant a public inquiry. That’s what we’re asking for now.

Before I conclude, I want to refer to some of the people and families affected by this scandal. Barbara Tumelty is my constituent, and she says to me:

‘I am writing as a bereaved family member concerning the contaminated blood scandal. I would like you to mention my brothers’ names in the Assembly debate. They are Haydn and Gareth Lewis. They died May and June 2010, and both were infected with HIV and Hepatitis C and possibly CJD too. I would ask you to call for a full public inquiry as was granted to Hillsborough families eventually. Although the UK Government has issued an apology, we, as families, still seek to find answers and accountability for actions that still go without blame all these years later. Gareth was the co-founder of the Birchgrove Group, a support group that was set up to help haemophiliacs, and their families, who were infected with HIV, and was the founder of Haemophilia Wales.’

Leigh Sugar is Mick Antoniw’s constituent, and this is what his widow, Barbara Sugar, asked me to say,

‘My husband, Leigh Sugar, was a mild haemophiliac who was infected with hepatitis C at 14 years of age, following a fall from a horse. His parents were not warned of the risk of the new factor VIII. Leigh’s parents were not told that the new treatment of factor VIII concentrate contained blood donations from up to 20,000 donors. Only one donor with hepatitis C or HIV would be enough to contaminate the whole batch. Leigh’s first treatment with factor VIII infected him with hepatitis C, a lethal virus that destroyed his liver and killed him at the age of 44. Leigh worked up until the year before he died. He trained as a mechanic and bought his own garage and built up a successful business to support his two young daughters. The stigma attached to hepatitis C meant that he didn’t tell anyone, not even his business partner, and when he became ill, he continued to keep this secret. Leigh was diagnosed with liver cancer and spent the last years of his life in intense pain and suffering. He died in June 2010. His brother was also infected with hepatitis C at the same time and underwent a liver transplant last year. Leigh’s parents will never recover and our family’s been torn apart by contaminated blood. We hope that by getting to the truth we will get closure and understand why this was allowed to happen.’

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

Well, as we’ve heard, in the 1970s and 1980s, blood products supplied to patients by the NHS were contaminated with HIV or hepatitis C. Around 4,670 patients with haemophilia blood-clotting disorder were infected, over 2,000 have since died in the UK with, as we heard, 70 in Wales, from the effects of these viruses. Successive UK Governments have since refused to hold a public inquiry into these events. The 2009 independent inquiry under Lord Archer made strong recommendations to Government, some of which have been implemented.

In 2008, the Scottish Government set up a public inquiry under Lord Penrose. Following publication of the final report of the Penrose inquiry in March 2015, David Cameron did apologise for the contamination disaster and promised to improve financial support. Nicola Sturgeon also apologised and, following a full consultation with those affected there, announced a new Scottish scheme focusing on those most in need. The Scottish scheme offers improved payments to those with more advanced HIV and hepatitis C, addresses those in most urgent financial need and, for the first time, widows there are entitled to regular payments and will no longer be forced to apply for means-tested discretionary support, offering some security via annual payments of about £20,000. In England, widows will only have a one-off payment of £10,000.

Currently, the UK Government provides partial support to some individuals and families through various charitable trusts funded by the Department of Health. Following a 2016 consultation, the UK Government announced a support package of £125 million to improve support for victims in England, with devolved administrations taking responsibility for future schemes and payments in their own nations.

In October 2016, the Cabinet Secretary for Health, Well-being and Sport here announced, as an interim measure, payments for the remainder of the 2016-17 financial year at the same levels as England, adding,

‘However those affected may have ideas about how this money can best be used to assist them in everyday living and planning for the future. To inform our future arrangements, I am now seeking further views on a new scheme from April 2017’.

The Irish Republic scheme is widely heralded by victims as the best model, offering a choice of a one-off payment or ongoing payments, life assurance and mortgage protection, and a health amendment card that ensures access to treatment and support.

Referring to

‘this absolutely tragic situation for all involved’—

their words—Cruse Bereavement Care told me that

‘People have been living with this for 30-40 years. Given the stigma around blood disorders, family members have to deal with the reactions that come with it. In some cases this manifests itself in a sense of needing to feel justified and to have pain recognised—privately as well as publicly. Broadly, when Cruse is able to offer bereavement support, we find that the bereaved experience is that there can be more unanswered questions for longer, which can have a profound effect upon people who have been bereaved. Unfortunately, we also see this in suicides or cases when suicide or foul play is suspected, but the family/friends are never entirely sure. The unknown element can be caustic and can result in people entering into cyclical thinking about what might have or actually happened. Our past is important to us, and this gives us some of our identity. With significant unknowns present such as this, it can leave people feeling unstuck.’

Let me briefly quote—to add to the examples given—Monica Summers, whose husband, Paul, and contaminated blood bank victim, died on 16 December 2008, aged 44. Their daughter was five years old. Monica says,

‘Every day for 18 months she asked “when is daddy coming home?” She turned 13 years in October and we both struggle. My husband didn’t have a choice, it was made for him and he lost his life because of decisions taken by others. Yet over 30 years later we are still trying to get some agreement. Please let the next decisions be made by voices of people who are currently suffering with HIV and Hepatitis C, by the widows and families left behind trying to heal and build a new normal life.’

Contaminated blood has had, and continues to have, a devastating impact on the lives of thousands of people with haemophilia and their families. Those infected live with the health effects of viruses, with more deaths each year. As Haemophilia Wales states,

‘A Public Inquiry is the only way forward to get to the truth about the State’s mishandling of these events.’

Hefin David (Labour, Caerphilly)

Dirprwy Lywydd, this is less a debate today and more a call for action. We are calling on the Government to act on behalf of those who seek justice for themselves and for their families.

In her opening contribution, Julie Morgan mentioned a constituent of our colleague, Mick Antoniw—Mr Leigh Sugar—who passed away from hepatitis C. Mr Sugar’s aunt is a constituent of mine—Mrs Dorothy Woodward. She has expressed to me her hope that the Welsh Government will do the right thing today and recognise the impact this tragedy has had on the lives of all the families affected. It’s good to see the Cabinet Secretary for Health, Well-being and Sport there to listen to that plea.

I’d also like to speak about the stories of two more of my constituents, who contacted me ahead of the debate today. Mr Kirk Ellis is 35 years old. He has haemophilia and he was infected with hepatitis C at just two years of age. Kirk has continued to work, even when undergoing various chemotherapy-type treatments to eradicate hepatitis C. He’s had such severe side effects that it has forced him to stop treatment purely because it made him unable to work, and he couldn’t afford not to work. Unfortunately, Kirk has been recently informed that he has cirrhosis of the liver, caused by hepatitis C. His disease has not been adequately monitored as there have been delays with the appointment of a consultant hepatologist at the University Hospital of Wales, Cardiff. Kirk had been overlooked, and when he was eventually seen by the newly appointed hepatologist, it was confirmed that he had had cirrhosis as early as May 2015. Unaware of the deterioration in his liver, Kirk and his partner decided to start a family, and they now have a 15-week-old baby. Since his diagnosis, Kirk has continued to work but has lost his disability living allowance and his housing benefit. He feels that he is being penalised for trying to stay at work despite being ill with the side-effects of treatment.

Another of my constituents got in touch to tell me the tragic story of how his family had been affected. His younger twin brothers were infected with HIV and hepatitis C by contaminated blood transfusions supplied by the NHS to treat haemophilia. After many years of terrible illness, they succumbed to the effects of HIV. My constituent’s brothers suffered discrimination, as well as verbal and physical abuse to—and he put this in quotes—’having AIDS’. Their mother never recovered from the death of her youngest sons and lived in her final years with depression. It’s been very difficult for him to contact me and speak about this, but he expressed to me his hope that the personal stories of all the affected families will help to finally achieve some closure on this matter, which is why the names have been on the screen today of those who’ve passed, and why I’m telling these stories.

These are just two examples from people in Caerphilly. Can any of us imagine how this must affect people who are suffering through absolutely no fault of their own? It’s a grave injustice, and it’s absolutely essential that the UK Government holds a full public inquiry into why this has happened. It’s not a party-political issue. The inquiry needs to be UK wide, as these events happened prior to devolution and occurred in all corners of the UK.

I know that the Cabinet Secretary has recently finished consulting on the sustainable compensation package for people in Wales who’ve been affected by this tragedy. I would urge him to listen to their views as much as possible, and their stories, when putting his plans in place.

Kirk Ellis feels strongly that Wales needs to adopt a compensation scheme similar to that in Scotland so that his family can support themselves should anything happen to him. Many of those in Wales living with the effects of this tragedy do not feel that the current compensation scheme, which mirrors that in England, goes far enough. I hope that, today, we as Assembly Members have given a voice to constituents who’ve been affected by this terrible tragedy.

David Lloyd (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

It’s a pleasure to participate in this important debate this afternoon. There is unanimity on this issue. May I start by acknowledging the work of the cross-party group here in the Assembly, chaired by Julie Morgan? I thank her for her opening remarks. Of course, I also thank Haemophilia Wales and Lynne Kelly for all the support that they’ve provided and their very strong evidence, their very passionate evidence, provided in the meetings that we have attended over these past few months.

Efallai fy mod wedi sôn o’r blaen wrth fynd heibio fy mod wedi bod yn feddyg teulu yn Abertawe dros y 32 mlynedd diwethaf.

‘Cynhyrchion gwaed a fewnforiwyd o’r Unol Daleithiau sydd wedi achosi’r problemau. Tuedda cynhyrchion gwaed yr Unol Daleithiau ddod o garchardai. At hyn, caiff pobl eu talu am gyfrannu gwaed yn yr Unol Daleithiau, ac felly mae grwpiau perygl uchel, megis rhai sydd yn gaeth i gyffuriau, yn tueddu i gymryd rhan. Ni fu unrhyw un o Lywodraethau’r DU yn hunan-gynhaliol o ran cynhyrchion gwaed. Addewidwyd y nod hwnnw gyntaf yn 1945, ond nid ydym wedi ei gyflawni o hyd. Mae hepatitis C yn gyflwr arwyddocáol ac ni ddylid ei ddiystyru fel mân haint. Gall ymosod ar yr iau, a gallai fygwth bywyd. Gall hyd at 80 y cant o’r sawl a heintiwyd ddatblygu afiechyd iau cronig, gall hyd at 25 y cant, yn ôl rhai astudiaethau, ddatblygu sirosis yr iau, ac mae perygl y gall hyd at 5 y cant ddatblygu canser yr iau.’

Mae angen diweddaru rhywfaint o’r wybodaeth honno, gan mai’r tro cyntaf i’r geiriau hynny gael eu clywed oedd gan fy nghyd-Aelodau Cynulliad ar y pryd pan gynheliais ddadl fer yn y Cynulliad ar 8 Mawrth 2001—8 Mawrth 2001. Yr un mater—ymchwiliad cyhoeddus, iawndal. Mae ein pobl yn dal i ddioddef. Roeddwn yn cymryd tystiolaeth bryd hynny gan bobl sydd wedi marw bellach, yn anffodus—Haydn Lewis, Gareth Lewis—roeddent yn rhan o’r ymgyrch, a siaradais yn hir â hwy. Dyna oedd ffrwyth y ddadl rwyf newydd ei dyfynnu o’r Cofnod 16 mlynedd yn ôl. Nid oes dim wedi newid i’r bobl ar lawr gwlad yma yng Nghymru ac mewn rhannau eraill o’r Deyrnas Unedig. Jane Hutt oedd y Gweinidog Iechyd ar y pryd, ac fe atebodd fedrus. Roeddem mewn Siambr wahanol. Mae’r ddadl yr un fath, sy’n ddigon i’ch gwylltio—yr un fath. Rydym wedi clywed hanes ymchwiliad Archer. Rydym wedi clywed am yr holl anghyfiawnder sy’n mudferwi. Oherwydd mae hwn yn anghyfiawnder sy’n mudferwi. Mae’n rhaid i ni gael yr ymchwiliad cyhoeddus llawn hwnnw. Mae’n gywilyddus fod Llywodraeth y Deyrnas Unedig wedi osgoi’r mater, wedi gwrthod mynediad at bapurau, gan obeithio y bydd y mater yn diflannu a bod pobl yn marw. Nid dyna’r ffordd i redeg llywodraeth yn y Deyrnas Unedig. Mae gennym i gyd hanesion am deuluoedd sy’n dioddef: gweddwon ifanc gyda phlant ifanc mewn tlodi am fod y tad wedi marw yn anffodus o ifanc oherwydd cynhyrchion gwaed halogedig fel person hemoffilig; pobl sy’n byw gyda hepatitis C, nad ydynt yn ffit i weithio—cosb gydol oes o flinder ac anhwylder aruthrol ac eithafol—ynghyd â’r risgiau y soniais amdanynt bron i 16 mlynedd yn ôl yma. Ni allwch gael sicrwydd yswiriant bywyd na diogelu morgais, ac eto ni allwch ychwaith gael iawndal digonol yn sgil rhywbeth nad yw’n fai arnoch chi. Rydym yn llusgo ar ôl yr Alban, rydym yn sicr yn llusgo ar ôl Gweriniaeth Iwerddon—buom yn siarad am yr angen am iawndal yma i’n pobl yng Nghymru ers blynyddoedd. Rydym yn disgwyl i Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet newid y sefyllfa honno, gan fod gennym bobl sy’n byw mewn tlodi heb fod unrhyw fai arnynt hwy.

Felly, mae angen i ni roi iawndal digonol i deuluoedd. Rwy’n dweud wrth Lywodraeth y Deyrnas Unedig: mae’n hen bryd i hyn ddigwydd, mae’n hen bryd sicrhau cyfiawnder—cynhaliwch ymchwiliad cyhoeddus llawn i drasiedi cynhyrchion gwaed halogedig. Nid yw ‘sgandal’ yn air rhy gryf. Mae anferthedd y dioddefaint wedi mynd heb ei gydnabod yn rhy hir—mae’n enfawr.

Rwy’n falch o gymryd rhan yn y ddadl hon heddiw, fel yr oeddwn yn falch 16 mlynedd yn ôl i gymryd rhan mewn dadl debyg. Cynhaliwch yr ymchwiliad cyhoeddus hwnnw yn awr. Diolch yn fawr.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

As has already been said this afternoon, there are many people in Wales who have been infected with either HIV or hepatitis C as a consequence of contaminated blood products, which came to them as treatment, and, as Hefin David pointed out, on many occasions as young children. Sadly, many of those infected have passed away. The pain of the families that have lost loved ones has not gone away, but neither has the stigma or the suffering of those still living with illness as they continue to face the challenges of the lives ahead of them.

As has been pointed out, during the 1970s and 1980s, in Lord Archer of Sandwell’s inquiry, which was an independent inquiry—. As he stated, the Department of Health favoured commercial interests and costs to the detriment of public safety, and the UK was slow to react to the dangers of HIV and hepatitis C. It was also slow to become self-sufficient in blood and blood products, relying very much on buying in those products, particularly from America. We all understand that, in America, of course, blood was collected by way of monetary payment for the giving of blood on many occasions—it was not as it is today.

Dirprwy Lywydd, as has already been pointed out, I want to highlight the impact on one of my constituents, David Farrugia. His father, Barry, and two uncles, all received contaminated factor VIII used to treat haemophilia. The consequences of this were that his father and one of the uncles became HIV positive and subsequently went on to contract AIDS, and the other uncle contracted hepatitis C. At different times, unfortunately, all three sadly passed away—from 1986 up to 2012.

However, the pain and the stigma the family experienced and continue to experience—they continue to suffer today, even though their loved ones have passed away. Days after the death of their father, Mr Farrugia’s sons were separated, and two of them—twins—were actually sent to care homes 100 miles apart. But, before they could be admitted to the care homes, the care homes insisted on a blood test to ensure that they weren’t contaminated. Now, that is something that is unacceptable. What effect does that have on anyone going there, let alone a child who’s just lost his parent? It is unacceptable behaviour from the public sector.

There were four brothers in total, and they were not reunited for over 20 years. That is the emotional and psychological impact of the death of a loved one from contaminated blood products, and the actions that occurred to them after that totally need to be addressed.

Dirprwy Lywydd, I’ve got to declare a personal interest, as I actually have a nephew who suffers from haemophilia and was infected by contaminated blood in the USA. He is an American citizen, so he’s not going to be affected or impacted upon by anything we do here today. But the challenges he faces, and he has faced, continue, and they’re the same challenges that face people in Wales today.

In the US, there was federal action to support those infected by contaminated blood. Similar actions should be taken across the whole of the UK. I am concerned that the UK Government is not even considering an inquiry into the use of contaminated blood and blood products. Actually, the then UK public health Minister, Jane Ellison, wrote to my colleague, MP for Aberafan, Stephen Kinnock, in January 2016, stating:

‘Another inquiry would not be in the best interests of sufferers and their families as it would be costly and further delay action to address their concerns and significantly delay plans to reform existing payment support schemes.’

That is simply not good enough. Those families and those sufferers want answers as to how they and their loved ones were infected. A consideration that it wouldn’t impact upon them, I’m sorry, is unacceptable to any politician who’s really concerned about the lives of their individuals and the people in Wales. The UK Government has a moral responsibility to provide them with answers, and it must meet its obligation to provide support, including compensation to those infected and their families. There are key issues the Department of Health need to address around liability and parity of support schemes across the home nations. And it’s already been heard—I think Mark Isherwood has quite clearly identified the schemes across the UK—and I think there is a requirement for more certainty for people here in Wales.

Perhaps the minimum certainty should be in line with the recommended payments identified by the Archer inquiry, which has already been implemented in southern Ireland. And Scotland’s system introduced to talk about supporting widows—perhaps we in Wales go one further, in supporting bereaved families, because there are children who are dependents of individuals who have been lost. We have seen families break up as a consequence of contaminated blood and the infections created because of them. What happens to the children of those families? We perhaps can go further than just individual support, and widows’ support, and help the families as well. The whole system seems to be designed to make you feel like a beggar. It’s not acceptable—no-one should have to beg to receive support that we as Governments should be providing for them without complication, and I urge the Welsh Government to take this matter up as a matter of importance and urgency with the UK Government.

Caroline Jones (UKIP, South Wales West)

I’d like to thank Julie, Dai, Rhun, Mark, Hefin and Jenny for tabling this individual Member’s debate and for giving us all the opportunity to discuss this very important topic. The contaminated blood scandal is one of the darkest periods in the history of our NHS. The fact that people who sought help from the health service were exposed to deadly viruses is shocking enough, but the fact that they have been denied a proper explanation as to how this was allowed to happen is inexcusable. The previous UK Government did apologise to patients infected by contaminated blood and their families, but they were still denied a full, independent public inquiry.

Successive Governments have monumentally failed to address the concerns of the victims of the contaminated blood scandal. In comparison, following pressure from the Scottish Parliament’s health committee, the newly elected SNP Government in 2008 ordered a full public inquiry into the infection of people with hepatitis C and HIV contracted from NHS treatment. The inquiry began in 2009 and published its final report in March 2015. The report spans five volumes and runs to over 1,800 pages, having considered the treatment of bleeding disorders and blood transfusions in Scotland between 1974 and 1991.

The people of Wales deserve no less. We need a full, independent inquiry covering the use of blood and blood products in the Welsh NHS. Seventy people have died in Wales as a result of the contaminated blood scandal and numerous others are living with diseases they acquired as a result of the treatment they received. However, we don’t know how many others have received treatment, contracted an infection, but remain undiagnosed. The Scottish inquiry recommended that everyone who received a blood transfusion before September 1991 be tested for hepatitis C. That’s the purpose of such inquiries: to establish the facts, to make recommendations and to ensure that lessons are learnt so that we don’t make the same mistakes again.

We need to establish the facts of what went on in our health service during the 1970s, 1980s and 1990s. These families deserve an explanation. How was a large American pharmaceutical company allowed to collect blood from prisoners in America and from the third world without any testing of the donors? How were the products produced from this blood licensed? Were products produced by this company still used in Welsh hospitals after they were withdrawn from the US? Have we learned anything from this dark period in the NHS’s history and are we sure that something like this could never, ever happen again? Only a full, independent public inquiry can address these questions. Only a full, independent public inquiry can provide answers to the victims of this scandal. And only a full, independent public inquiry can provide closure for those who have sadly passed away, and their families, as a result of receiving this contaminated blood. I urge the Welsh Government and the UK Government to work together to do the right thing and order such an inquiry while many of the victims are still with us. Thank you very much. Diolch yn fawr.

Vikki Howells (Labour, Cynon Valley)

I would like to start today by thanking the Members in whose name this motion appears on today’s agenda. This is a very important subject, where we have the opportunity to call for redress for those lives touched by the contaminated blood tragedy. For my contribution today, I would like to focus on the stories of two of my constituents who were affected in this way. The first story is from a constituent who, understandably, wishes to remain nameless. He says:

‘I was 17 years old and ready to start my life when I was told by my Haemophilia Doctor that I had HIV, I was told not to tell anyone, not even my mother. They told me I would live about 18 months. I had seen AIDS victims on the TV and so I thought I would die in the same way. This was a death sentence, I signed myself out of hospital and started taking sleeping tablets, as when I was asleep I wasn’t thinking about the reality of what was happening. During the next few years I took more and more sleeping pills, morphine and pethidine, in fact anything to numb the effect and stop the mental torture. I would take 5 or 6 at a time, up to 90 a week. I had a nervous breakdown and was admitted to Whitchurch Psychiatric hospital and tried to kick the habit. For years I spent spells in and out of hospital where I witnessed other Haemophiliacs I had known dying from AIDS. One such victim Mathew was a young man who was a couple of years younger than me and looked up to me, he was going to die imminently and I was asked to stay in hospital a few days longer by the Haemophilia doctors until he died. I had become an addict to sleeping tablets and pain killers and my doctor stopped them all one day, I was climbing the walls as I was given no help, I broke into the local pharmacy to try and get tablets to numb the pain. I attempted suicide many times, my mother witnessed all of this.

‘In 1994 I was told that I was also infected with Hepatitis C, I underwent many courses of treatment with horrendous side effects and eventually was clear of the virus 3 years ago. I was told that I had cirrhosis due to Hepatitis C but I have been refused stage 2 ongoing payments from the Skipton Fund. All my life I haven’t been able to get life assurance or mortgage protection due to HIV and Hepatitis C. I live day to day, I met my wife over 20 years ago, we would like to have some recognition of what has happened to me and how my life has been ruined. We would like financial support to offer us some degree of security. Instead we have to make applications for means tested support which is usually turned down.’

The second story is from my constituent Jeff Meaden, who I’ve been in correspondence with for some months. Jeff writes movingly about his much-loved wife Pat. Patricia Meaden died of liver cancer and liver failure in January 2014. Pat had contracted hepatitis C through treatment she had received for a blood clotting disorder. She was ill for most of 2013 but wasn’t referred for a liver transplant and developed liver cancer. Her widower Jeff says:

‘We lived in the same street as children and played together as children. We first went out together when we were 14, her death was so unnecessary, I am broken hearted. My wife would have been alive it if hadn’t been for Hepatitis C, it has ruined our lives and nobody is taking any responsibility for it.’

The stories of my unnamed constituent and Pat Meaden highlight some of the ways in which lives have been changed as a result of the contaminated blood scandal: the psychological impact; addiction to medication; suicide attempts; refusal of life assurance or mortgage protection; financial insecurity; and death. But their stories also highlight the way the contaminated blood scandal has affected those around them and I am glad that this aspect has also been touched upon in the motion today. I have no hesitation in supporting this motion today and its call for justice. Thank you.

John Griffiths (Labour, Newport East)

I welcome this opportunity to contribute to the case for recognition of this contaminated blood scandal and tragedy and its ongoing consequences to support the campaign for justice by affected families and Haemophilia Wales and the need for full answers as to how it was allowed to happen. Dirprwy Lywydd, my constituent Lynn Ashcroft’s husband, Bill Dumbelton, was a haemophiliac and one of the first to treat himself at home with cryoprecipitate. As a result of contamination, he contracted HIV and hepatitis C and died aged 49, leaving her a widow at 35. Bill had no life insurance: he could not get any as a haemophiliac. Lynn was left to cope with the mortgage and all the other financial pressures. She found available support inadequate and dispiriting and believes the UK Government should ensure financial security for survivors. Lynn says the UK Government has no conscience and has lost the plot. She does not want the one-off £10,000 payment on offer, which she considers insulting.

My constituents Janet and Colin Smith’s lives were torn apart by the death of their son, Colin. Little Colin was a haemophiliac and given a batch of contaminated blood product in the middle of the AIDS crisis. At age 7, after years of suffering, he died in his mother’s arms weighing 13 pounds. Colin and Janet think Little Colin knew he was going to die. He told his brothers they could have his toys. He obviously knew they would get to use them for longer than he would and he had turned to his brother Daniel and said, ‘You will miss me, you know.’ And Daniel does miss him, as do his other brothers, Patrick and Darren. Dirprwy Lywydd, the family have been denied answers as to why the provision of contaminated product was allowed to happen. It was, in fact, a freedom of information request that revealed the blood was from a prison in Arkansas and it wasn’t until three years after his death that Colin’s parents discovered he had hepatitis C. That had been kept secret from them. They continue to be ignored and feel strongly that they have to continue to fight for justice for Little Colin and everybody else affected by this tragedy.

Dirprwy Lywydd, families and Haemophilia Wales have now been waiting some 30 to 40 years for the truth and they are crystal clear: they need a public inquiry to get that truth.

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

I now call on the Cabinet Secretary for Health, Well-being and Sport, Vaughan Gething.

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I want to begin by thanking Julie Morgan as chair, cross-party group members and all of those who’ve contributed to today’s debate. There’s been powerful testimony from all sides, not just about the injustice and unfairness, but in particular about the impact on individuals and families, whether that’s the impact on work, the ability to get insurance, but also the stigma that goes with contaminated blood and the shame that people feel. Whether they’re right to feel shame is an entirely different thing—I don’t think they should be ashamed at all—but it’s how people really do feel and how it’s impacted on their lives. And then, of course, there are the other medical problems, especially those mental health problems. So, I want to say at the outset that I strongly support the call for the Government to hold a UK-wide public inquiry into the circumstances that led to people contracting hepatitis C, HIV or both from NHS-supplied contaminated blood products. I know this has been described as some of the worst treatment in the history of the NHS. People were infected by NHS treatment and it should never have been allowed to happen, but it did and I am truly sorry about the harm that has been caused and the impact this has had and continues to have on those affected.

The impact of those infections on people’s health and well-being has been hugely significant and highlighted again in the Chamber today, with wide-reaching consequences for lives, dreams and aspirations. And, of course, some have lost their lives permanently, as Julie Morgan outlined in opening the debate. I have had the opportunity to hear first-hand, both in the cross-party group but also in private ministerial meetings, about the views of affected individuals and their families, including representatives of Haemophilia Wales and Assembly Members. I’ve been further informed by feedback I’ve had from Welsh Government officials following the recent workshops that they held with those affected to help inform our future direction in Wales on the financial support that we will be able to provide.

What is clear to me and everyone in this Chamber who has listened is the incredible strength of feeling about what happened, and a plain and simple demand to know all the circumstances and facts about what happened. And I support them in that demand, because I know that they seek closure in order to be able to move on. And the calls for a public inquiry over many years across more than one Government by those campaigning have been ignored. To many, we understand that this has added insult to injury. I certainly believe that a full and independent investigation into the circumstances is right and appropriate. In October last year, I wrote to Lord Prior following the Prime Minister’s commitment to consider a review into the issue of contaminated blood, and I asked how the devolved administrations would be engaged. I then wrote to Jeremy Hunt on 20 December adding my voice to the call for a UK-wide public inquiry. And it’s clear that that inquiry can only take place if the UK Government acts. It’s not just because these events took place before devolution. It’s not just because we can’t always know where people were infected. But, of course, only the UK Government has access to the information and the powers for the scope and depth of an inquiry that is required for a meaningful inquiry to help people get to the truth.

It is also true, though, that the scandal was not unique to the UK. What is different, though, is that in some other countries like Ireland and Canada, their governments have instigated those inquiries. I do accept that no inquiry can repair the damage that has been done, but it can ensure that we fully understand in a transparent way how the events of this catastrophe were able to happen. It is important, as well as ensuring those who have been so directly affected by the tragedy know, that we also ensure that we take any learning to help prevent any such thing happening in the future.

Caroline Jones asked directly: have we learned anything? The truth is we have, actually, because if you look at blood products here in Wales, the safety has significantly improved in terms of traceability and testing. I’ve seen some of those systems in place, and the safeguards on visits that I’ve made to the Welsh Blood Service. But that does not get away from the fundamental injustice for those people who have been infected.

As people are aware—and, of course, as was mentioned in the debate—work is under way to reform the system of financial support provided by the Welsh Government. We would have preferred to have done this on a consistent UK-wide basis, but this is where we are. The five infection-specific schemes established since 1988 have evolved in an ad hoc manner, and over time the system has become complex. Some improvements have been made pre and post devolution, such as the introduction in 2009 of annual payments for those with HIV and annual payments for those most severely affected by hepatitis C from 2011.

However, there is widespread dissatisfaction that continues about the way and the extent to which people affected are supported. In reforming support for those affected who will fall within the responsibility of the Wales scheme, I have three priorities. Any move to a new system has to be equitable and operate transparently. Improvements need to be affordable and sustainable within the health budget, and decisions will need to take account of the views expressed by those affected.

So, in October last year I wrote to individuals inviting them to complete a survey to let me have their views on how best to provide support and how it could be tailored better to meet their needs. My officials also held two workshops, one in north Wales and one in south Wales. This overall process has proved invaluable in gaining first-hand the impact of the tragedy on people’s lives and those of their families in many cases. The survey closed on 20 January and I will consider carefully the information and the views that are expressed to me in making a decision of a path forward. Of course, there has been some more money allocated within this year’s final budget. But it will be a difficult task on the way forward and I know perfectly well I will probably not be able to satisfy all of the demands—and understandable demands—that families will want to make upon me and this Government. But I will be completely transparent about any decision I make, how I’ve made it and what I’m able to do to help support families here in Wales. So, I’ll be considering those issues carefully when making a decision on the way forward for Wales.

But I want to finish—because the essential call in today’s debate has been about truth and a way forward—and I absolutely believe it is right and proper that people have answers to their questions about how and why people were infected as well as receiving appropriate support in helping to live with the impact that this tragedy has had and will continue to have.

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Thank you. I call on Rhun ap Iorwerth to reply to the debate.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Ynys Môn)

Thank you very much, Deputy Presiding Officer. I’d like to thank everyone who has contributed to this debate this afternoon. I’ll thank also some who haven’t had the opportunity in this afternoon’s debate to express their opinion on record. I’ll name Jenny Rathbone, of course, who’s one who’s signed this motion and who is here in the Chamber supporting this 100 per cent, this motion before us. Can I also thank the Cabinet Secretary for his positive response to the specific call that’s being made by us today? But my thanks goes mainly to the individuals and the families who have lived with this injustice for so long, and the families of those who have lost their lives, and for their dignity and resilience in pressing on us to ensure that they, hopefully, will be able to have justice.

Mae’r holl Aelodau heddiw wedi dweud wrthym am brofiadau go iawn etholwyr, ffrindiau, aelodau o’r teulu, hyd yn oed—maent wedi adrodd am brofiadau dirdynnol sy’n dangos yn glir i ni pam rydym yn mynnu’r camau hyn. Cyflwynodd Julie Morgan yr achos dros ymchwiliad yn huawdl. Disgrifiodd Mark Isherwood raddfa’r drasiedi, y sgandal hon, ledled y DU, ac annigonolrwydd y cynllun iawndal. Cawsom ein hatgoffa gan Dai Rees am y stigma sy’n cydredeg ochr yn ochr â salwch. Fe’n hatgoffwyd gan Dai Lloyd fod 16 mlynedd ers i’r Cynulliad drafod yr union fater hwn ac rydym yn dal i aros am gamau gweithredu. A chrynhodd Hefin David ein bwriad yn eithaf syml heddiw fel galwad i weithredu. Mae’r alwad honno’n alwad syml iawn.

What we’re demanding this afternoon is very simple indeed. As we’ve heard, 283 people in Wales were infected with hepatitis C or HIV because of contaminated blood in the 1970s and 1980s. Seventy of those have now passed away. Their names are once again on the screens around this Chamber, and behind every name, there is an individual who had to live a life suffering both illness and stigma, through no fault of their own. And behind every name, there is also a family who have had to grieve, through no fault of their own.

In the cross-party group on contaminated blood, we’ve heard some powerful descriptions of the experiences of victims and their families, not only the physical impacts of the infection, but also the psychological impacts on them, their families and friends, about the prejudice of people when they told them that they had HIV or hepatitis C, and the guilt felt by many of them who had infected husbands, wives or even babies, unbeknown to them. Because of that, factors such as these, many have decided to suffer in silence. But, to intensify that suffering, Government after Government has also chosen to remain silent and refused to get to the heart of exactly what went wrong and why. Victims and their families deserve to know and they deserve justice.

One of the outcomes of this absence of answers, the absence of a perception of what went wrong, is the striking problem, as we’ve heard from many Members, in terms of the compensation packages provided. These demands for an inquiry today don’t replace calls for improved compensation packages for victims. I’m sure the Cabinet Secretary hears my comments on that. Certainly—

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Will you take an intervention?

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Ynys Môn)

[Continues.]—a full public inquiry shouldn’t be any reason for the Government to delay, any further, coming to a just settlement for those people who have suffered. I will of course take the intervention.

Jenny Rathbone (Labour, Cardiff Central)

Would you agree with me that what is needed is a full and effective public inquiry, similar to the one that Charles Hendry conducted into the tidal lagoon, not one that takes six years and comes up with one limp recommendation, as happened in Scotland? We need a full public inquiry, so that we know that the NHS is a learning organisation and has learnt from the dreadful mistakes that were made.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Ynys Môn)

I’m grateful to the Member for making that intervention, and she’s absolutely right, of course, that what we want is a full, a complete, inquiry. We’ve waited long enough to get the answers to the questions that we ask. I’m grateful that that point has been made. Inquiries that we have seen in Scotland have been useful in terms of the compensation structure, but it’s not enough in itself.

Yn dilyn ymchwiliad Penrose yn yr Alban yn 2005, mi gyflwynodd Llywodraeth yr SNP system newydd well a thecach o gefnogaeth ariannol, am eu bod nhw’n credu bod gan Lywodraeth yr Alban gyfrifoldeb moesol i wneud hynny. Gadewch i ni yma hefyd gefnogi galwadau am ymchwiliad, ond un llawnach, fel cam tuag at roi’r gefnogaeth haeddiannol i ddioddefwyr yng Nghymru hefyd, yn ogystal â’u teuluoedd.

Gadewch imi ddyfynnu un o’m hetholwyr i, sydd â’i wraig, Jennifer, yn dioddef o hepatitis C. Mi gafodd ei heintio yn y 1970au. Dyma a ddywedodd o:

‘In the 14 years since she has become ill, she’s been unable to do most of the things she did before. In the early days, she was so debilitated that she could not cook; could walk only a short distance; could not drive; found it difficult to understand basic things; she needed help washing and dressing. She has improved slowly, but 12 years later, she still suffers from chronic fatigue, usually spending most afternoons asleep. She cannot cope with day-to-day housework and cooking, but she tries to do some, often making mistakes.’

Crucially, he says:

‘In her words, she never has a good day; just bad or very bad’.

I’ve met Jennifer and her husband on a number of occasions. I’ve been struck by their dignity; dignity in the face of what they have had to endure in terms of their health and in the face of an unjust compensation structure, and of too many unanswered questions. Seventy of the 283 contaminated in Wales are no longer with us. You’ve seen their names in the Chamber today. We owe it to them and we owe it to all those still living with the consequences of the contaminated blood scandal to seek answers, once and for all. For justice, support today’s motion.

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Thank you. The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? No. Therefore, the motion is agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

8. 6. Welsh Conservatives Debate: Cities and Urban Areas

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

We now move on to item 6, which is the Welsh Conservatives debate on cities and urban areas. I call on David Melding to move the motion. David.

David Melding (Conservative, South Wales Central)

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. Can I say that we brought this motion in a constructive spirit? We want to examine the place of our cities and urban areas in our national life, particularly as a driver for growth and something that should be at the very heart of our ambition for a future prosperous, more sustainable Wales. Can I say that we accept the Government’s amendment, which adds to our motion, and we’re happy to accept that?

David Melding (Conservative, South Wales Central)

Liveability and citizen engagement are key to the success of modern cities and urban areas in general. All over the world, cities are enjoying a renaissance, people are moving back to cities, their place in national life has never been more emphasised. One notable trend is a growing preference for smaller and medium-sized cities. We hear mostly about the mega cities and their challenges and the place they have in the world economy, but actually, the more innovative cities, the cities that are growing and are doing most to transform their economy and the economies of their hinterlands, are the smaller and the medium-sized cities. Here, Cardiff, Swansea, Newport, and I would also include Wrexham, have great potential. They’ve already done much—and I don’t want anything in today’s debate to take anything away from that—but I think that we need to recognise what great assets they are, and do even more work with them.

Another key factor is the issue of sustainability. In the last generation, I think we’ve seen this concept being deeply embedded in our national consciousness, and the need for sustainable, good urban design and vision is now, I think, accepted by all. To have that, there are some key qualities that we require: access to clean, open spaces, for instance, and I don’t just mean Bute park, though that is a magnificent example, but also those neighbourhood parks, particularly, perhaps, in the poorer parts of cities and urban areas, where there is the chance for recreation, particularly for younger people and children. This, I think, is often overlooked, whereas quite small interventions can open up the spaces that are there, can enhance the ones that have existed for many years, and we need to place a real priority on that.

Air quality has been discussed quite frequently in the last months here in the Assembly, and I’ll just touch upon that, but it’s always a challenge. In an urban area, you’re going to have more potential pollution and the result of that, if it’s not properly controlled or if unintended consequences of certain public policy like encouraging diesel 10 or 20 years ago is not effectively managed, is that it’s the very young, the old, the most vulnerable who suffer and are effectively driven out of the urban area.

High-quality eco-friendly housing—I think that’s probably one of the areas of particular renovation that we have seen. There are some good examples in Wales, but I think we need to realise that Cardiff, Swansea and other cities could really be marketed as places to come to see that carbon neutral, or carbon minus, even—I’m not quite sure if I get that term correct—housing is possible. Deputy Presiding Officer, the National Assembly itself as a building remains one of the most eco-friendly public buildings in the world, and I think we should be very proud of that. Green is best. Green really interests people as well, and if you’re achieving these great national priorities, and being green about it, I think that is a sign of great quality, which is not overlooked when people come and see us in action.

I was interested that some American cities now are turning very much to this concept of marketing themselves as green spaces and areas where there is this great potential for a green economy. Pittsburgh, which some of you may know, in Pennsylvania, this old steel-making town and a coal mining area around it, and was for many years regarded as perhaps the hardest city to turn around, has now gained much in recent years from marketing itself as the USA’s greenest city, or the greenest emerging city, and it has stressed that it has the first green convention centre, the first green children’s museum and the first green public arts facility. I think that’s the way we need to be looking at, for example, Cardiff. We can really aim for that and be leading the way in Britain and, indeed, in Europe.

This brings me on to the whole concept of design quality. There are some cities around the world that have invested in design particularly, so they, for instance, give support when people are designing whatever it is—small housing estates, public buildings or commercial buildings. You can have help hiring architects, for example, that will place a lot of emphasis on the design quality. Those are the sorts of schemes, I think, that we need to be looking at.

Can I turn now to transport, because I think this is, perhaps, one of the things that traditionally has let down a lot of cities, because of the choices that were made after the second world war in particular? But there’s also a lot of hope with new modern systems that are available to us, and technology also improving. I think public transport is itself enjoying a remarkable comeback as people see the advantages—a lot of people don’t really need to own and run a car. I’d be delighted if I could get rid of my car. It’s not quite feasible, given my job at the moment, but living in Penarth, it would be quite feasible for me to have a very full life without a car, just relying on public transport or occasionally hiring a car if I needed specifically to do that, and also relying on active transport like walking and cycling. The south Wales metro offers a great prospect of an integrated transport network that will do much and do much for some of the poorest in our society. The upgrading of the Cardiff rail network and the resignalling that’s going on—. Just another point here on transport: electric vehicles will revolutionise much of what happens, not only cutting pollution, but you’ll need a new tax base, for a start, because you’ll no longer be able to tax petrol and diesel. It is likely that concepts like road pricing—I’m not talking about ridiculous levels, but that’s more likely to be the way that motorists will get taxed, and that opens up all sorts of possibilities of managing more effectively the flow of traffic in cities.

I want to talk now about citizen involvement, because I think that’s something that is at the very heart of achieving the sort of change that citizens really want, and giving back urban places to people, to our citizens, because I think there was a trend not to see the citizen as central, really, to the life and work of cities. Here, I’d like to stress some schemes we’ve had for a while now, but I still think they are very, very effective—community asset transfers, for instance. I was pleased to see recently that the Welsh Government is stressing the need for best practice here to be more aligned with the objectives of the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015, but it can empower communities, and I think it’s very, very important. Incidentally, there, I would like to see systems whereby we can get, perhaps, some of the wealthier neighbourhoods to twin with some of the poorer ones and transfer some of the knowledge base that they have, and perhaps some of our grant mechanisms ought to be depending on that type of lateral thinking.

Neighbourhoods, I think, should be involved in identifying priorities. Is it litter reduction? Is it ensuring safety and perhaps having a few more police on the beat? Speed limits—perhaps they’ll want a 20 mph speed limit as a top priority in their neighbourhood. Why, indeed, do we have 30 mph as the assumption in urban areas? Why should it not now be 15 mph or 20 mph? Or they may emphasise playgrounds. I’d like to commend here the work that’s been undertaken in Atlanta, Georgia, which has made citizens central to their urban strategy. They call it the Atlanta BeltLine, where they try to integrate transport, open spaces, public art and affordable housing—all taking note of and involving citizens and the citizens’ priorities.

Can I conclude by saying that I think the policy framework is pretty strong, but we need to make sure that it’s integrated and works together effectively? The future generations Act, I think, is very, very important. Co-operation with the UK Government: we look at the Cardiff city region deal, for instance, and the Swansea bay and the north Wales growth deal. These are very, very important developments. Vibrant and viable places: I agree with the main focus there, with job creation and investment to be levered in, and people assisted into employment. So, there’s good scope there, but I think now that we need to raise our ambition also. Our cities can not only be best in class, they could be amongst the best in the world. There’s a lot of potential, but there’s also a lot of competition, not only internationally, but within the UK. I do believe that there’s going to be a profound adjustment in the levels of economic activity currently crowding into the south-east, as a lot of those in the new generation—those people who can’t afford family homes—will be wanting to move to places where they can enjoy a much better quality of life. So, I think, for all these reasons, we should be optimistic, but we should also realise that our game needs to be raised, and our ambition greater. Thank you.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

I have selected the amendment to the motion. I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Economy and Infrastructure to move formally amendment 1, tabled in the name of Jane Hutt.

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Formally.