Senedd Cymru (Welsh Parliament), 1 February 2017

278 contributions from 43 members. The official report.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

I call the National Assembly to order.

1. 1. Questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Environment and Rural Affairs

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The first item on our agenda this afternoon is questions to the Cabinet Secretary for the Environment and Rural Affairs. The first question [OAQ(5)0088(ERA)] has been withdrawn. So, the second question, Neil Hamilton.

Neil Hamilton (UKIP, Mid and West Wales)

2. Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on the impact of Brexit on the Welsh fishing industry? OAQ(5)0097(ERA)

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Thank you. The UK’s future exit from the European Union raises many questions and uncertainties for the future of Wales’s fishing industry. To help safeguard the prosperity of the industry and our coastal communities, my department will be developing a forward-looking fisheries policy, as set out in the ‘Securing Wales’ Future’ White Paper.

Neil Hamilton (UKIP, Mid and West Wales)

I’m delighted with the answer that the Cabinet Secretary has provided. Does she accept that the opportunities that will be available for Welsh fishermen and women will be very significant, that the last 43 years have seen a plundering of our seas through the common fisheries policy, the devastation of fish stocks, which have taken many, many years to begin to correct, and that by taking back control of the coastal waters and further regions of the sea, we have the opportunity not only to develop a massive economic resource for Wales, but also to improve conservation in Welsh waters?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

I think it’s a little too early to assume Brexit will be as positive as the Member portrays for the fishing industry overall. But I absolutely accept—and I’ve said many times—that, while leaving the EU poses many risks and challenges, there are opportunities going forward. I think market access is absolutely critical, and, as I said, we will have a common fisheries policy going forward—a very Welsh-specific fishing policy—to replace the common fisheries policy. But I do think we need to look at the basic principles of how we do manage our fisheries in Wales. I think there needs to be more flexibility and also adaptable management regimes, going forward.

Simon Thomas (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

I hope you wouldn’t listen to the kings Canute at the other end of the Chamber, who believe that they can manage our seas. There is an important fishery in Wales, which is the shellfish fishery, which is extremely important. What are the possibilities as we look at scallop fishing, for example, and mussels of course, to open fisheries that could be certified under a Marine Stewardship Council scheme in order to promote this industry in Wales? Could you develop that side of things so that we can have sustainable fisheries as we leave the European Union?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Thank you. Well, I hope, in my answer to Neil Hamilton, you accepted that I said I think the presumption that it’s going to be a very positive thing is a little early. But, you know, as I said, there are opportunities, and I think we do need that more flexible approach. You mention specifically scallops and mussels, and how we move forward, particularly in relation to seafood. I’m going out to our local seafood expo in Brussels in April, because I think there is a lot we can do for the fisheries industry, which, maybe, have been hampered at times, and it’s about getting that more flexible approach. But I go back to what I was saying: market access is absolutely critical.

Suzy Davies (Conservative, South Wales West)

Along the same lines, Cabinet Secretary, you know how vulnerable the Gower cockle industry is because of early stock deaths in the Burry estuary. Perhaps the great repeal Bill will safeguard this industry by retaining the shellfish regulations of the European Union, but it won’t actually protect shellfish markets within the European Union at the moment. So, how is the Welsh Government promoting our shellfish within the European Union in order to ensure that our produce will be the first choice, with tariffs or without?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Well, I mentioned in my answer to Simon Thomas that I’m going out to the seafood expo in Brussels. I’ve given funding for that. I think it’s very important that I personally go out there, to make sure everybody knows about our great Welsh seafood industry. We’ve also had the seafood strategy, which I helped launch with the industry about three or four months ago.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

3. Will the Cabinet Secretary provide an update on funding for the Warm Homes Programme? OAQ(5)0102(ERA)

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Thank you. This financial year, we are investing £26.5 million in Welsh Government Warm Homes to improve the energy efficiency of our housing stock and help tackle fuel poverty. I’m currently considering funding options for the next four years and will be making an announcement by the end of March.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Well, I welcome that response, and it will build on the work where, I understand, last year, under Nest and Arbed, something around 8,000 homes were improved with their energy efficiency. And of course, this links to fuel poverty, and that’s what I wanted to ask in my supplementary. The Welsh Government and Cabinet Secretary will be aware of Age Cymru’s statement on fuel poverty, and they’ve made some specific recommendations, building on the work that the Welsh Government has done. They’ve asked for a new strategic approach to tackling fuel poverty, backed by a clear programme and timescales. They’ve asked for robust and regularly updated data on housing stock quality, and reporting on fuel poverty levels. And one of the things they suggest, finally, is that we should consider an ambitious new fuel poverty target based on improving a number of low-income homes to a minimum energy performance certificate rating of C each year. There are other recommendations, but I wonder will she be taking the time to look at the Age Cymru proposals and to respond to them, and to take forward the work that we’ve already been doing in the Welsh Government.

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Yes, I am aware of Age Cymru’s statement on fuel poverty and, certainly, we are currently considering the proposals that they’ve recommended in the development of our wider fuel poverty policy going forward. We’ve already responded to many of the proposals that they have brought forward in our response to the Nest consultation that was published just before Christmas. So, for instance, we’re proposing to extend eligibility for a package of Nest home energy improvement measures to low-income households with occupants suffering from certain vulnerable health conditions, and we do have fast-track arrangements in place for eligible vulnerable people, which I think is really important. Also, when my colleague, Carl Sargeant, and I were in our respective portfolios—and now we’ve swapped—we decided that we would have a look at a major new data collection for our housing stock, because we did not have that data that we both felt that we should have. So, we have brought that forward and we’ve issued a joint written statement to Members on that.

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

I welcome Huw Irranca-Davies’s reference to the Age Cymru report, findings and recommendations. You referred to the consultation on a future demand-led fuel poverty scheme, but the Fuel Poverty Coalition Cymru has expressed concern that, by introducing age requirements in the eligibility criteria proposed, this will deny help to many households in fuel poverty that are currently eligible. How will you, therefore, respond specifically to the Age Cymru statement that the 2010 revised fuel poverty strategy is now out of date, and that Wales and the Welsh Government needs to deliver for Wales a new revised fuel poverty strategy, reflecting not just energy efficiency, important though that is, but all the wider social justice issues linked to this important matter?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Well, I mentioned in my answer to Huw Irranca-Davies that I was looking at the proposals that came from the Age Cymru statement on fuel poverty in the development of our wider fuel poverty policy going forward.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Questions now from party spokespeople, and to ask the first question this week, UKIP spokesperson, Neil Hamilton.

Neil Hamilton (UKIP, Mid and West Wales)

Diolch, Lywydd. If I can pick up the gauntlet flung down at me by Simon Thomas in relation to King Canute, King Canute, of course, was the wise man who showed his fawning courtiers that there were limitations on the power of royal authority and government, and he couldn’t hold back the tide, so I feel he would probably have been a man-made global warming sceptic if he were alive today. [Interruption.] But to the business of the day, can I welcome yesterday’s statement from the Cabinet Secretary that she is designating several special areas of conservation for the harbour porpoise and for other sea birds? This is a step in the right direction in creating a coherent network of protected areas at sea to conserve our marine wildlife and habitat. Can she tell us when the Welsh Government intends to complete the marine protected area network in Wales, based on the 2016 Joint Nature Conservation Committee network progress report?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Thank you for your welcoming of the statement in relation to the three extra areas in relation to harbour porpoises. There is a significant piece of work going on around marine policy and marine planning. I think it’s very important that we have the Welsh national marine plan in place, and I hope to do that by the summer.

Neil Hamilton (UKIP, Mid and West Wales)

I thank the Cabinet Secretary for that helpful reply. The Welsh Government is committed to clean, healthy, safe, productive and biologically diverse seas, and there has been good progress made on designation. But, I’m not sure that the same progress has been made on improved management of marine protected areas. In 2012, the Countryside Council for Wales, which is now, of course, Natural Resources Wales, said that 47 per cent of species and 54 per cent of habitats in Natura 2000 sites were in an unfavourable condition and, more to the point, 100 per cent of the species and 79 per cent of habitats were not under secure management regimes to improve conditions. Given that Natural Resources Wales has been financially constrained and has had to cope with a 15 per cent cut in budgets in the last two years, is she satisfied that they have sufficient resources to achieve the objectives that the Welsh Government sets in this respect?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

I’m sure the Member accepts that we’re all financially constrained and, certainly, I meet with NRW on a monthly basis—with the chair and chief executive—and I am satisfied that they do have the resources in place, yes.

Neil Hamilton (UKIP, Mid and West Wales)

I thank the Cabinet Secretary for that. In the strategic action plan that the Government published in November 2013 for Wales on marine and fisheries, paragraph 12 referred to the report of the Environment and Sustainability Committee of the Assembly in the last Assembly, in January 2013, and a commitment was made, following that, to six-monthly ministerial statements updating on progress. Unless I’m wrong, we haven’t had one now for about 18 months and I wonder if the Cabinet Secretary has any plans to go back to the six-monthly progress report system that was put in place several years ago.

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Certainly, I’ve been in post eight months and I don’t recall bringing one forward, so I will look into that and, if appropriate, make a statement and, if not, I will write to the Member.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Simon Thomas.

Simon Thomas (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

Thank you very much, Llywydd. First, Cabinet Secretary, you will be aware of the restrictions relating to avian flu in Wales at the moment. If these are to remain until the end of February, then 90 per cent of egg producers in Wales will lose their free-range status. We will then have passed the threshold for keeping poultry indoors and we will lose the status that is very important to both customers and egg producers in Wales. Are you having any negotiations at the moment, via the UK Government, with our European partners about extending this period or about varying the restrictions?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

The precautionary measures will stay in place until 28 February. You’re quite right—85 per cent of our egg production in Wales is free-range. I met this morning with the chief veterinary office, and, yes, she is having discussions with the other administrations. I know that, yesterday, she had discussions with Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs officials and also this morning, because, obviously, we have now had eight cases of bird flu in the UK. Just, I think, Monday was the last one, so clearly it’s still a very live issue. So, those negotiations and those discussions are ongoing.

Simon Thomas (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

I am pleased that negotiations have commenced, because, if the current ban goes beyond February, then we will lose that free-range status. As you’ve just confirmed, 89 per cent of eggs in Wales are produced under that status, and that compares with 44 per cent throughout the UK generally. So, we in Wales specialise in free-range eggs and it’s very important for our egg producers.

The leaders of the agriculture unions at a European level have asked for the 12-week period to be extended. It’s also true to say that the restrictions that you have in place in Wales, as Cabinet Secretary, are ones that you are responsible for. Are you in a position at all to give this Assembly an outline today of whether you will continue with the restrictions beyond the end of February, or are you in a position to put other steps in place for Wales, including high biosecurity levels, in order to retain the free-range status?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

I’m not really in a position currently to give you a decision around extending past 28 February. As I said, I met with the CVO this morning and I’m meeting her again next week, following her discussions with colleagues. I think we need to look at a balance. We can’t keep the birds in-house forever. However, I mentioned that we’ve just had our eighth case on Monday across the UK, so it’s about getting that balance. But we are working closely with DEFRA and with the devolved administrations and making sure that we’re taking expert advice also.

Simon Thomas (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary, and I accept, of course, this is very much a fluid situation. I don’t think that we’ve had new cases in Wales this year, but that’s not to say that we won’t. There is, however, a real issue here because, if free-range status is removed from eggs at the end of February, then, quite frankly, consumers won’t know what they’re buying. With what’s been talked about by the British Egg Industry Council, for example, about the material in supermarkets, information and so forth, I think we’ll lose some of the confidence that consumers have in free-range eggs—very important in the Welsh context—and there will be confusion as to what’s free-range and what’s not. We’ve spent many years working with consumers to persuade them of the animal welfare issues around free-range eggs and people have come with us and are prepared to pay more, which in turn has meant more investment in the industry in Wales. So, if this does carry on past 28 February, what steps are you doing already with supermarkets and egg suppliers in Wales to ensure the consumer really understands the reason for such a change in the designation of the eggs they buy and that we can have ready-made the kind of stickers and information that will go on the eggs sold in Wales, so that people really understand the situation?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Thank you. Simon Thomas raises a very important point. When I came into portfolio and saw that 89 per cent of our egg production was free-range I thought, ‘Wouldn’t it be great to have 100 per cent?’ But, clearly, out of a clear blue sky, this sort of thing drops on you. The free-range industry have already contacted me asking for a meeting; I’m very happy to meet with them. We know of the significant cost it would be in relation to their packaging et cetera, so it is very important that we do all we can to help them. It also shows, when you went into those precautionary measures, it was right to wait. Obviously, bird flu is over in Europe. We didn’t go too soon because of that 12-week period that we could only keep the birds in. As I say, we can’t keep them in-house forever; we need to look at it very carefully. But it is a very fluid situation and I will update Members as we go through the month of February.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Welsh Conservative spokesperson, David Melding.

David Melding (Conservative, South Wales Central)

Cabinet Secretary, when do you expect the marine protected areas steering group to publish its report on improved management?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

By this summer.

David Melding (Conservative, South Wales Central)

Thank you for that very pithy answer, Cabinet Secretary. [Laughter.] It was—[Inaudible.] The last piece of work done—. You did commission, or your predecessor commissioned it in March 2014, so it would have taken them a little over three years, alas, and the last major piece of work was done by Natural Resources Wales’s predecessor, the Countryside Commission for Wales, and that said there was a failure of effective management in these really important marine protected areas, but it also said, that report, that a high-level steer was needed from the Welsh Government because across authorities there was currently very low priority in this area. Do you agree?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

No, I don’t think it’s a low priority but I do think it’s really important that we have a plan and a strategy. I mentioned in my answer to Neil Hamilton around the Welsh national marine plan consultation also that I think it’s really important that we do all that we can to protect our marine natural resources. It is a priority for me. It’s very complex, it’s a very complex part of the portfolio, but we will be bringing that work forward this year.

David Melding (Conservative, South Wales Central)

And it should be a priority and I think we’ll all be reassured when you deliver on that. Many experts and stakeholders believe that MPAs need a more spatial approach rather than being species or habitat specific. Furthermore, many also argued for non-extraction areas. Is this going to be the likely direction of policy?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

I think the Member will have to await the policy when it’s issued later this year.

Paul Davies (Conservative, Preseli Pembrokeshire)

4. Will the Cabinet Secretary outline what the Welsh Government is doing to improve animal welfare across Wales? OAQ(5)0087(ERA)

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Thank you. The ‘Wales Animal Health and Welfare Framework—Achieving High Standards Together’ explains the approach we are taking to achieve continued and lasting improvements in standards of animal health and welfare across Wales. The 2016-17 implementation plan sets out specific actions we are taking forward in this 12-month period.

Paul Davies (Conservative, Preseli Pembrokeshire)

Cabinet Secretary, you’ve made it quite clear in a recent response to a written question I asked that you’ve not made any representations to your ministerial counterparts across the UK about the possibility of an animal abuse register and you’ve also confirmed that you have no intention of raising the issue of increasing penalties for animal offences at all at this present time. Given that I understand you’re meeting with the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs tomorrow, can you confirm that you will now raise these matters with the UK Government, and following that meeting, will you also publish a statement outlining the Welsh Government’s agenda for improving animal welfare throughout the fifth Assembly?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

In relation to the animal abuse register, Bethan Jenkins had a short debate on this issue and I have committed to looking very closely at having such a register. I don’t think I need to have discussions with my UK counterparts in relation to that.

I am meeting with the Secretary of State tomorrow. She’s coming to Cardiff at my invitation to accompany me to a stakeholder event around Brexit discussions. So, I’m not promising to raise this with her, but I will certainly look at the point you mentioned.

Bethan Sayed (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

I don’t want to misinterpret what’s been said, but I think in response to me previously, you’ve said that you wanted to take a comprehensive and effective approach, and you’ve said that you wanted to look at what the UK was doing to be able to take stock of what we could be doing here in Wales, so that we weren’t replicating or putting a register in place that wasn’t necessary. So, I wondered if that type of discussion has happened. You’ve also said to me that you would meet with the British Veterinary Association this month and I’m wondering if that has taken place, so that we can get to an understanding as to whether you’d be minded to look at this further or not.

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

I am continuing to look at it, quite comprehensively actually. I had a very good presentation from a vet from Scotland around work in this area, and I will certainly write to the Member about the presentation, because I think it would be very beneficial for you and any other Member who wanted to see it. So, it is ongoing and I will update Members in due course.

John Griffiths (Labour, Newport East)

Cabinet Secretary, the Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals consider that there’s a hidden problem in Wales in terms of monkeys and other primates. They think that around 120 are being kept as pets in Wales, and some of them at least will be suffering unnecessarily, as a result of inadequate care and the fact that they’re not suitable for being kept as domestic animals. The RSPCA are, in fact, calling for a total ban on the keeping of monkeys and other primates as pets in Wales. Will you consider the case for such a ban?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Yes, absolutely. I’m aware of the campaign by the RSPCA and I’ve asked the chief veterinary officer to have a look at it for me.

Michelle Brown (UKIP, North Wales)

The Welsh Government introduced the Animal Welfare (Breeding of Dogs) (Wales) Regulations in 2014, regulating the puppy industry in Wales. Can the Cabinet Secretary provide her assessment of the effectiveness or otherwise of that legislation, and how much funding, in particular, has been provided to local authorities to facilitate the enforcement of it?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Yes. I’ve already given a commitment that we are going to review that legislation, because I need to make sure that that legislation is the most appropriate, and that piece of work will be beginning in the spring of this year.

David Melding (Conservative, South Wales Central)

5. What policies are in place to increase biodiversity in marine environments? OAQ(5)0090(ERA)

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Thank you. I recognise the value of maintaining and enhancing marine biodiversity and building the resilience in our marine environment. The marine strategy framework directive requires us to achieve good environmental status of our seas. It sets out the measures we are taking to protect, maintain and restore the environment.

David Melding (Conservative, South Wales Central)

Thank you for that, Cabinet Secretary. The Welsh Government supports the UN Convention on Biological Diversity and that commits us to halting the decline in biodiversity by 2020, and then starting to reverse that decline. I read just recently about the fall in the numbers of sewin in Welsh rivers and seas. A mark of Wales in many ways—sewin. It does bring home how vigilant we need to be in this area and ensure that these targets are met and exceeded.

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Yes. I absolutely agree with the Member and I am very committed to Wales completing its contribution to a well-managed ecologically coherent network of marine protected areas. You’ll be aware of the network assessment that we undertook last year, which demonstrated that Wales is already making a significant contribution towards the UK network, for instance. We’ve got 128 marine protected areas in Welsh water, but we are working to ensure that that network is effectively managed, so that it does continue to contribute to the conservation and improvement of our area.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Ynys Môn)

I went on a visit on Monday to Cemlyn, which is a coastal site owned by the National Trust on the north Anglesey coast. It’s a very important site in terms of biodiversity, including a high percentage of the global population of the sandwich tern. It is one of the oldest nature reserves in Britain, going back almost a century. Anyone who’s familiar with Cemlyn will know that it’s in the shadow of Wylfa. Does the Minister agree with me, therefore, that the developers of Wylfa Newydd should be proactive, and take all possible opportunities to support the National Trust in its efforts to safeguard and develop this sensitive site for future generations?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Yes, absolutely. It’s a very important site, and I would absolutely agree with the Member.

Mark Reckless (UKIP, South Wales East)

Cabinet Secretary, before meeting you this morning, the Climate Change, Environment and Rural Affairs Committee warmed up with a session on our marine inquiry, which we’re commencing. Members were struck by the sheer complexity of legislation in this area, overlapping responsibilities, the wide range of different protection areas and the rules around them. I wonder with the extension of Welsh responsibility beyond the 12-mile limit, so taking that area from the UK Government, and with Brexit, will there be scope for rationalising the system with one based more around the principles of the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015, and promoting that goal of increased biodiversity in our marine environment?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Yes, absolutely. I think that’s one of the opportunities, as opposed to the risks and the challenges, and you’re quite right. David Melding mentioned the UN Convention on Biological Diversity. We have the EU nature directives. We have our own directives, as you say, and we’ve got our own legislation in place now, both in the Environment (Wales) Act 2016 and the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015, so I think there is the possibility of doing that.

David Rowlands (UKIP, South Wales East)

6. When will access to the inland waters of Wales be back on the Welsh Government’s agenda? OAQ(5)0094(ERA)

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Thank you. Access to water has never been off our agenda. The Welsh Government is keen to secure improvements in opportunities for people to enjoy the outdoors. I have considered the responses to a Welsh Government consultation on accessing the outdoors, and intend to set out my approach in the coming weeks.

David Rowlands (UKIP, South Wales East)

I thank the Cabinet Secretary for that answer, and would like to acknowledge here that the Welsh Government has done a great deal to open up the countryside over recent years, but this has largely been concentrated on land usage rather than on water access. It is some nine years ago when the Sustainability Committee published its report in response to a 10,000-signature petition received by the Petitions Committee. Amongst other things, their report stated that the situation with regard to access to water was untenable and that new legislation was required. Now, you will know of Waters of Wales. It’s a community of independent campaigners representing swimmers, boaters, walkers and other interested parties, which seeks to have legislation that would enshrine rights of responsible access to inland waterways throughout Wales. I do acknowledge, as my colleague mentioned with the marine environment, it’s a very, very complex issue that you would have to deal with, but does the Cabinet Secretary not agree that after some nine years, it is time for the Welsh Government to address this issue, especially given that such rights would impact positively on the tourist trade, and also greatly assist in the objectives of the health and well-being Act?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Well, I was actually a member of the Sustainability Committee back in 2009; it’s actually 2010 I think we had our inquiry into access to inland waters. And what the Welsh Government has been doing to date is actually following the recommendations from that committee report. But we have had a review of legislation on access to the outdoors, and we’ve had a subsequent public consultation, which I referred to in my initial answer to you, which has involved lots of stakeholders. We had a workshop that specifically looked at the issue around access to inland water. As I say, I will be making a statement over the coming weeks in relation to it.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Cabinet Secretary, I thank you for the answer you’ve just given and the indication that you’re going to be announcing shortly the decision on the consultation. Obviously, when the Green Paper came out, there were deep concerns from anglers in relation to the impact it would have on fishing stocks and breeding times. And perhaps the question of ‘responsible’ access is the important word. I met with my local anglers’ society last Friday night, and they’re still concerned over this business of timings of access to ensure that when the fish are breeding, they’re not disturbed. Will you therefore ensure that the voluntary process that you’ve identified is perhaps the best way forward to ensure that there is a good relationship between the anglers and those who wish to use the rivers, so that all can get the benefit from the inland waterways?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Yes, absolutely. I think it’s a very emotive issue. I remember when I was a member of the Sustainability Committee, my postbag was quite full from both anglers and canoeists, and as a Minister it’s just the same. It is incredibly emotive. It’s about, I think, considering not just anglers, not just canoeists—it’s about walkers, it’s about swimmers, it’s about gorge walkers; I’ve had correspondence from people who enjoy gorge walking. So, I think we need to get it right. It’s about looking at the additional benefits also—the health and well-being benefits—and, again, I think we’ve seen that from the coastal path, for instance, so we need that with our access to our inland water too.

Llyr Gruffydd (Plaid Cymru, North Wales)

I’m of the same opinion that voluntary agreements are the best way forward, but, of course, one does recognise that getting that agreement can be difficult at times. What consideration has the Government given, therefore, to appointing a mediator or mediators in such situations—a role that NRW could perhaps play—in order to ensure that we do come to voluntary agreements, which hopefully then will be far more successful?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

That is something we are going to have to consider. The access to the water is probably the most contentious issue that’s come out of the consultation. The advice from Natural Resources Wales does say that the existing voluntary access agreements—. There’s only around 4.6 per cent of the total main river length of Wales available for canoeing and kayaking, so we need to have a look at that. You’re quite right; maybe if there was a need to mediation, NRW would be the most appropriate organisation to do so, but I’m having a look at all the responses, and will bring forward a statement.

Hefin David (Labour, Caerphilly)

7. Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on grazing rights on common land? OAQ(5)0099(ERA)

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Thank you. Well-managed common land provides significant economic, social and environmental benefits to the people of Wales. Grazing rights are an important part of the management regime on common land. The Commons Act 2006, which is currently being implemented here, provides an established process for the delivery of their protection.

Hefin David (Labour, Caerphilly)

I’m told by planning officers at Caerphilly County Borough Council that disputes over grazing rights are a private matter between interested parties. The local authority holds a register of common land and village greens, but it has no statutory powers to protect or enforce an individual’s right to graze animals on common land, or so they tell me. The local authority says any such disputes should be settled by recourse to legal advice.

I’ve been working on the case of a constituent within my constituency and a constituent of Andrew R.T. Davies, in that region, both farmers, who wish to graze animals on common land and are finding they’re coming up against quite difficult barriers. Seeking legal advice can be costly and very time consuming, and a barrier—simply a barrier—for many of them. Can the Cabinet Secretary, therefore, ensure that guidance is clear, so that the need to take legal action is minimised, and if necessary, could she decide whether it might be appropriate to update current advice on this matter?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Yes, I’m certainly very happy to look at that. I am aware that we have exchanged correspondence, and I’d be very happy to look at that also to see if there’s any more we can do. But I’ll look at the guidance, and if there’s a need to update it, we’ll be happy to do so.

Andrew RT Davies (Conservative, South Wales Central)

Cabinet Secretary, could I endorse the comments that Hefin has made? Both of us have been dealing with a particular issue around Eglwysilan common, but in many parts of Wales these are huge tracts of land that have rights built up over many years—many centuries in fact. As pressure, especially urban pressure on urban commons has built up, there are real issues now over what were the traditional uses of those commons by farmers and grazers in the area. With the change of title of lord of the manor, people are trying to exercise rights they don’t have although they own that title of lord of the manor. I’d be grateful if the Cabinet Secretary could bring a statement forward to indicate what levels of support are there to protect the rights that have been built up over many years, and to protect the traditional use of those commons so that they can continue to be enjoyed, not just by graziers, but by the people who live very close to them, and the threats that have been made in recent weeks and months can be put to one side.

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

My officials are doing a significant piece of work at the moment around the Commons Act, so I’ll certainly look at that specific point and, if appropriate, bring a statement forward.

David Lloyd (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

8. Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on the Mynydd y Gwair wind farm development? OAQ(5)0096(ERA)

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

The Mynydd y Gwair development is a commercial wind farm in strategic search area E. It has received all necessary consents and I understand construction starts next month. The developer will invest £50 million and provide employment during the build, generating enough clean energy to power up to 22,600 homes.

David Lloyd (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

Thank you for that response. Members will be aware that the application to develop a windfarm on land under the ownership of the Duke of Beaufort, near Felindre, Swansea, is one that has gone on for 20 years and has created a great deal of local opposition. The most recent saga, in addition to what you’ve just said there, is to do with the access to the site from the A48 at Pontarddulais. As regards that point specifically, can you give the Chamber an update about the latest discussions you’ve had with the developers, and when and how do you expect that the current situation will be resolved?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Well, I haven’t had any specific discussions with the developer. I will check with my officials if they have and I’ll write to the Member.

Suzy Davies (Conservative, South Wales West)

There is plenty of opposition, still, to Mynydd y Gwair, and local residents are concerned about the potential impact on the local bat population as well. I raise this as the lesser horseshoe bat champion for the Assembly. Residents do point to the recent Exeter university report on bat mortality caused by blade disruption to sonar and to the potential of roosts near the proposed access track to the site. The company’s qualified ecologist is satisfied that the bat roosts that they have found are not in trees that are planned to be cut down, whereas another qualified specialist has advised that roosts have been found in another tree that is due to be felled. As there appears to be some confusion about which trees and which roosts everyone’s talking about, do you think that there should actually be some clarity achieved before any trees are felled?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

I think that’s an issue we certainly need to look at, and I’m very happy to do that and will update the Member.

David Lloyd (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

9. Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on community renewable energy schemes? OAQ(5)0095(ERA)

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

The Welsh Government has a strong track record in supporting community renewable energy schemes. As a result of Welsh Government support, 11 schemes are up and running, providing benefit to the local area, and five more are in construction.

David Lloyd (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

Thank you very much once again, Secretary, for that response. Very differently to the Mynydd y Gwair scheme, the response of local residents to the Awel Aman Tawe windfarm has been very positive, partially because of the size of it, but partially also because the local community profits directly from it. Would you agree, therefore, that there are lessons to be learnt by Welsh Government in terms of the need to support local communities that wish to see renewable energy schemes being developed, and what are your plans in that field?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

I’m very happy to support local energy schemes. I’ve been very fortunate, in that I opened a small hydropower one in Merthyr Tydfil, I visited the one that you refer to, and I mentioned in my initial answer to you that we’ve got 11 schemes up and running due to the working of the local community. I think there are some very passionate people out there who are very tenacious. It’s a long process, and they’re absolutely determined to see the end. We’ve got a further five in construction, and I’m very happy to make sure that that funding is available to support those localities.

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Many of us in the Chamber, Cabinet Secretary, are concerned about ensuring shorter economic supply chains in Wales to shore up local economies, and local energy generation is one key sector for that work. What steps can the Welsh Government take to encourage municipal energy generation in Wales?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

I think there are some fantastic opportunities to be able to make savings in the areas that you’ve discussed. I’ve encouraged all Welsh public bodies to maximise the opportunity and, certainly, our green growth Wales initiative will help deliver these projects by providing a number of services, but also substantial finance.

Angela Burns (Conservative, Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire)

One of the logjams that happen in this area, though, Minister, is within local councils that have to grant the applications of the various schemes that come forward. Do you believe that local councils are adequately knowledgeable of the benefits of local community schemes and, in fact, adequately knowledgeable of the best way of promoting them, whether it’s wind power, whether it’s river energy, or whatever it might be? Do we need to have further discussions or do you need to have further discussions with the Cabinet Secretary for local government as to how we might be able to encourage the removal of this logjam throughout Wales, so that we can get more of these schemes up and running?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

It’s very important that local authorities do have that expertise in-house or, if not, they can collaborate with a neighbouring local authority to ensure that they do. I think that we don’t want to see logjams. I think it’s very important that these schemes are up and running as quickly as possible. I mentioned in my answer to Dai Lloyd that some of the people I’ve met who’ve brought forward these local schemes are very tenacious, because they’ve had to be. So, it’s really important that we don’t have those logjams in place.

Lynne Neagle (Labour, Torfaen)

10. Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on the importance of green spaces and parks in Wales? OAQ(5)0086(ERA)

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Thank you. The availability of quality green spaces and parks is important to people’s health and well-being. They provide opportunities for healthy recreation, support biodiversity and contribute to reducing flood risk and air pollution. Everyone should have access to quality green space near to where they live.

Lynne Neagle (Labour, Torfaen)

Thank you. I was absolutely delighted that Pontypool Park was named the best park in Wales for 2016, following a public vote by the charity Fields in Trust towards the end of last year. The park was also shortlisted from 214 entries for the UK’s best park award, narrowly missing out to Rouken Glen Park in Scotland. We have so much to be proud of in Pontypool, and the park itself is unique. How many parks in Wales, or across the UK, can say that they are home to ponds, Italian gardens, a playground, an historical shell grotto and folly, Pontypool rugby club, a leisure centre and even a ski slope? Will you join me in congratulating Pontypool Park, and also in paying tribute to all the hard work and dedication of the friends of Pontypool Park who give up their own time to ensure that the park is kept clean and tidy for everyone to enjoy?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Well, I was hoping that was a rhetorical question and you didn’t want me to actually give you a figure. Yes, I’m absolutely very happy to congratulate Pontypool Park. Maybe the Member would like to invite me to visit.

Neil McEvoy (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

I suppose, really, everybody is entitled and deserves green spaces, except in the west of the capital city. Could you justify the environmental vandalism and destruction of ancient woodlands and fields in the west of Cardiff? Can you justify that please?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Well, no; I wouldn’t be able to justify that.

Mohammad Asghar (Conservative, South Wales East)

Cabinet Secretary, the Open Spaces Society has called on local authorities and developers to make 2017 the year of the village green. They urge developers to include registered village greens within their sites, so that local people have a guaranteed green space for recreation. Will the Cabinet Secretary agree to raise this issue with her Cabinet colleagues to see what can be done to increase the number of village greens in Wales?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Yes, I would be very happy to discuss with Cabinet colleagues if that’s appropriate.

Simon Thomas (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

11. What discussions has the Cabinet Secretary had with Natural Resources Wales regarding Aberthaw power station since 1 January 2017? OAQ(5)0089(ERA) [W]

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Thank you. As the environmental regulator of Aberthaw, Natural Resources Wales is responsible for reducing the nitrogen oxides emission limit in Aberthaw’s environmental permit, in line with the court judgment. Aberthaw must then comply with the revised limit. My officials will continue to monitor the progress of NRW and RWE towards compliance.

Simon Thomas (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

I thank the Cabinet Secretary for her reply, which didn’t actually specify what discussions she’s had. But, within the last hour, I think all Assembly Members have had a letter from the Cabinet Secretary, setting out what’s happened recently with Aberthaw. I note, from that letter, that Natural Resources Wales did not write to RWE, who operate this plant, until 6 January this year, although the court case was last September. They didn’t write to ask about permit variations until 6 January—incidentally, after I’d put in freedom of information requests asking what on earth was happening. That permit regulation needs to bring the nitrogen oxide emissions at Aberthaw below the 500 mg/cu m ceiling value, which the court judgment put in. They are still—according to your letter to Assembly Members—breaking that four months later than the European Court of Justice ruling. You say that it’s Natural Resources Wales that is responsible for permitting this, but clearly they haven’t pulled their finger out to do anything about it. This reflects very badly on us as a nation and yourselves as the Government.

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

The letter was issued to Assembly Members. I think it was David Melding who made a request of the First Minister during First Minister’s questions last week. As Simon Thomas said, it just set out the limits throughout. There has been a fall, but you’re right that further work is going to be required to ensure that Aberthaw is able to operate before the 500 mg/cu m emissions ceiling. There have been a significant amount of discussions between my officials and NRW, and I’ve asked my officials to monitor the situation closely.

David Melding (Conservative, South Wales Central)

The crucial thing here, Cabinet Secretary, is that this power station will now keep generating power into the medium term to meet peak demand. So, it’s part of the power-generating infrastructure and people must be reassured that these high standards—or higher standards, anyway—are followed as a matter of course, and don’t just suddenly come into the public domain when particular Assembly Members put pressure on the Welsh Government.

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

I absolutely agree, and I do want to assure Members that I’ve been having discussions. I’ve met with RWE, I’ve met with Aberthaw, I’ve met with my colleague Jane Hutt in relation to this, and I have ensured that officials are monitoring the situation very carefully.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

I thank the Cabinet Secretary.

2. 2. Questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Communities and Children

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The next item on our agenda is questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Communities and Children, and the first question is from Sian Gwenllian.

Siân Gwenllian (Plaid Cymru, Arfon)

1. Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on funding plans under the Vibrant and Viable Places programme for 2017/18? OAQ(5)0104(CC)[W]

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I thank the Member for Arfon for her question. The Vibrant and Viable Places programme has been successful in providing support and investment in many communities across Wales. A future capital regeneration programme is under consideration and I’ll be providing further information to Members shortly.

Siân Gwenllian (Plaid Cymru, Arfon)

Thank you. Can you confirm whether the current programme is to come to an end at the end of March, and what will happen following that? Will the programme continue as it is, or will it become part of something larger? What will the guidance be, and what is the timetable for that? Local authorities are eager to have the details as soon as possible so that they can plan for the future. Indeed, there is uncertainty and a lack of clarity more generally in the regeneration field. Do you agree that the vision is not clear at the moment, and if the intention is to reduce poverty then will the programme set clear outcomes in order to assist in making the difference that both of us are working towards?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I’m grateful for the Member’s question. She will be aware of the great work that’s gone on in her constituency, in Gwynedd, in terms of Vibrant and Viable Places actions taking place there. The Member is right to say that we haven’t yet formulated a future programme from VVP. The intention is for it to come to an end, and I will make a further decision on that. I think what was hampering the issue was about the amount of regeneration capital funding that was available to me. I’m grateful to the finance Minister and discussions with him on the ability to enhance that profile. From those discussions with him I am able to start looking at a future programme, which may be a VVP 2, or indeed another version of that.

John Griffiths (Labour, Newport East)

Cabinet Secretary, I hope you would agree with me that Newport has seen beneficial use of Vibrant and Viable Places for city-centre regeneration, creating accommodation and alternative use to retail effectively. Whatever the future holds in terms of Vibrant and Viable Places or a similar scheme, will you continue to work closely with Newport City Council to take forward this important and beneficial regeneration programme?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

Indeed, and I’m grateful for the opportunity to visit Newport with both yourself and the Member Jane Bryant to see the fantastic effects that VVP has had in your communities and neighbouring areas. It is something that I’m taking very seriously about how we continue with work to develop communities in the way we have in the past. I’m looking forward to announcing new schemes in the future. I will keep the Member abreast of that proposal.

Suzy Davies (Conservative, South Wales West)

Last week you mentioned that some Vibrant and Viable Places projects were going to be getting more money because of underspends in other areas, which strikes me as slightly odd, that some local authorities seem be quite bad at following guidelines if some are underspending and others haven’t got enough money. Because we’re not talking just about replacing falling-down car parks here; we’re talking about something that interests me very much: lifelong living and the housing supply that would meet that. So, are you planning to use any of this underspend to target specific projects, and particularly the kind of housing that can brought into city centres, which isn’t just affordable housing and then nothing else, but something that has a lifelong throughput to it?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

Of course, the Member raises an important issue about how distribution of finance is given. It’s fair to say that the VVP policy is complicated by other actions such as planning and access to land, et cetera, so that complicates, sometimes, some of the schemes that are thought to be a little easier than others. I am looking at authorities that bring to me alternative schemes that are able to be flexible, but certainly the schemes that the Member talked about, about the introduction of long-term opportunities in housing, not just affordable, but the transformation of their communities, is something I’m very keen to pursue.

Mark Reckless (UKIP, South Wales East)

2. How long in advance would it be reasonable to expect a Welsh Government supported provider of childcare to notify working parents of their child’s start date? OAQ(5)0107(CC)

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

Parents are notified of when their entitlement to Flying Start childcare begins by a Flying Start health visitor soon after birth. Later in the process, local authorities will refer parents to local providers so that start dates can be agreed as far as possible in advance.

Mark Reckless (UKIP, South Wales East)

I was surprised, when starting my own three-year-old recently, not to receive advance notice. The process was to have meetings at the beginning of the term and then agree a date. I seek no intervention in my own case, which is resolved, but I just wondered, in having childcare to support working parents as well as the education of the child, would it not be appropriate, if both parents are working, perhaps have to give notice to a private nursery, to have at least a month’s advance notice of what date a child might actually start.

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

In regard to childcare outside of the Flying Start setting, there is no statutory issue regarding guidance around this, but I am conscious of the Member’s concerns and, as we develop the childcare policy as we move forward, it is something I will be looking at carefully to make sure that parents are aware and confident about how they can access these childcare facilities across Wales.

Andrew RT Davies (Conservative, South Wales Central)

Cabinet Secretary, you alluded to the Welsh Government’s offer of childcare and that being unfolded now as we go forward in the Assembly. I believe this year the pilots are going to start in the various local authorities that you’ve identified as being fit for purpose for those pilots to take place. What type of public information, what type of information, are you going to make available to parents in the first instance in those pilot areas so that they are aware of what their rights are under the childcare scheme and what will be available to them?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

We’ve got five pilot areas, which cover six local authorities, and we’ve already started to work with them on how they devise their schemes. It will be a matter for the local authority in terms of what area space they pick, whether that’s ward-based or school-based or private-sector solutions, but we are keen to make sure that, pre summer, we’re able to ensure that the message goes out to parents in that cohort of individuals where they can access childcare. It is a pilot scheme and we anticipate that some of those pilot schemes actually will not continue in that form. But what we are doing is learning from the way this complicated scheme, as the Member will be aware, is happening in England. Trying to get that out through the door is quite challenging, but we are learning from this and, hopefully, the information that is—the important bit is making sure parents know well in advance their ability to access this programme.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Questions now from the party spokespeople. Plaid Cymru spokesperson—Bethan Jenkins.

Bethan Sayed (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

Thank you. My first question is something I’ve raised with you quite a lot now in the last few weeks. With regard to NSA Afan, I wondered whether we could have an update on the inquiry, specifically because I’m getting contacts from people in Bettws who have funding streams through the delivery of this service and they tell me they don’t have a clue as to what is happening. What isn’t clear to me is that, when problems were raised at Plas Madoc, the funding was continued until the investigation was completed. So, I want to understand, if you are treating this in a different way, why that is. You mentioned the police in previous answers to myself. Has it all been passed over to the police, or are you still investigating internally as Welsh Government?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I’m conscious of the Member’s interest in this and also that of Dai Rees, the other Member that’s raised this on several occasions with me. I’m very cautious of the ongoing police investigation and also our governance review of this. It is slightly different to the Plas Madoc event. I’m damned if I do and I’m damned if I don’t. If I remove funding people criticise me for not removing it early enough, or not leaving it run for the organisations. What I am conscious about is that the indirect consequence of NSA not having funding—how can we make sure that services provided to the local community are continued as best they can. My team have started discussions, advance discussions, with Neath Port Talbot council about stepping into that space for delivery.

Bethan Sayed (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

That answers the question for Neath Port Talbot, but it doesn’t in terms of Bridgend. It wasn’t a criticism; I was trying to find out the differences between the operations and why you’ve made that decision, and I’m still not really that clear.

On the wider Communities First agenda, I’m hearing from those who have an interest in the future of Communities First that the consultation wasn’t really as strong as it could have been. I want to understand how you’re analysing the consultation responses. I hear you’ve got very comprehensive responses from children writing a little note to say how important the services have been for them personally. How are you going to analyse how important they are and then come up with a plan to try and deliver the future of whatever scheme you have in mind?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

Of course, I’m grateful for the Member’s views on Communities First and those of many Members who’ve taken part in the consultation. The consultation phase 1 ended on 15 January. I’m surprised at the Member’s comments saying that it wasn’t very successful or delivered successfully from a third party—I assume that’s wrong. We received over 2,300 responses, primarily—80 per cent of them—from the workforce or people who are associated with the organisation in the first place. My team are analysing that programme response very closely—they will give me advice on that very issue and I’m hoping to make a statement about what resilient communities are within the next two or three weeks. I hope that the Member will allow me some time just to finalise details of what the Communities First programme looks like for the future, but I will come back to this Chamber to let Members know.

Bethan Sayed (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

Thank you, and I look forward to that statement, because I think many people in the sector want to know exactly how any new scheme can be effective in targeting poverty. Many of the people I’ve talked to in the last few weeks have said that it’s about the economy and boosting the job market for the less well-off: for example, more jobs closer to disadvantaged areas, action to improve terms and conditions—for example, a living wage—and strategies to improve low-paid sectors, e.g. social care and tourism. Are these things that you are considering as key elements of any new programme, because, of course, many of the Communities First projects have been well run and effective, but many, we would say, haven’t achieved those aims of eradicating or tackling poverty in their respective areas?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I think the poverty figures speak for themselves—they’ve been very stubborn, bouncing along the bottom, and what we’ve done as a Government is looked at and reviewed all of our programmes. We’re flexing between some of our Flying Start and Families First programmes; Communities First is under review, looking at what that may look like; we’ve got a big focus, working with Ken Skates regarding employment opportunities—so, Parents, Childcare and Employment, Lift, and Communities for Work. I will come back to the Chamber with a commitment, a vision, around what we do and want to do with our communities to ensure that we can start to turn the crest of poverty in a positive direction.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Welsh Conservatives’ spokesperson, Mark Isherwood.

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

Diolch, Lywydd. Of course, Plas Madoc Communities First was a grant-recipient body that received funding direct. After the whistleblower was vindicated, with the support of, dare I say, Janet Ryder, Eleanor Burnham and myself, and there were convictions in court, we also had two Wales Audit Office reports, one into Plas Madoc specifically and one into Communities First generally, which I’d asked the then auditor general to commission. Those found, above all, a failure since the inception of Communities First by the Welsh Government to put in place effective corporate governance controls—financial controls, human resource, and audit.

In Higher Shotton, when the Communities First co-ordinator whistle-blew against Flintshire County Council, which was the grant-recipient body, she was subjected to what turned out to be false allegations. Now, in the context of NSA Afan, the lead delivery body for Communities First in Sandfields and Aberavon, you said last week, that, following an investigation that had provided strong evidence of financial irregularities, NSA Afan had had its funding terminated. Was this a grant-recipient body or not? Had heed been given to the Wales Audit Office findings all those years ago of the need to implement those corporate governance, finance, human resource, and audit controls, which had led to the problems of the past?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

Thank you for the Member’s question. I prefer not to look in detail at NSA Afan because of the ongoing detailed discussions with South Wales Police and with my audit team. What I can tell the Member is that the decision to terminate funding from NSA Afan wasn’t taken lightly—it was taken following a thorough investigation into the financial governance arrangements with NSA Afan. Our investigation has commenced. The Welsh Government official leading the investigation team informed the Wales Audit Office of the case and has continued to update the Wales Audit Office as it’s been progressed.

There is a rigorous process in place to manage the funding that we provide to thousands of organisations every year. In this respect, the grants centre of excellence is now well established and works to ensure continuous improvements in the delivery of grant funding across all of Welsh Government. What we have to recognise is that this is a huge programme—£300 million-worth of investment in our communities. And of course, at some stages there will be people who will seek to take advantage of a system that they understand. We have to take that in our stride and understand how we can resolve those issues when they come about. I’m conscious of the Member’s interest in all of these activities and, as and when I can release more information about this particular case, I will do.

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

Well, of course, the particular concern was whether this was a grant recipient body, and whether the Welsh Government have acted on the recommendations of the Wales Audit Office all those years ago in terms of ensuring that effective controls were in place.

But, moving on to a related matter, as I’ve raised with you previously, the ONS figures published last July said Wales had higher numbers—one in eight children living in long-term workless households—than the UK average, and research showing that children living with long-term unemployed parents tend to do less well at school or are at higher risk of unemployment later in life.

Given the findings of the Social Mobility and Child Poverty Commission ‘State of the Nation’ report that more than 65,000 children whose families receive out-of-work benefits or tax credits in Wales were not living in Communities First programmes, how do you respond to the StatsWales workless households figures, which came out two months ago, that show that although the percentage of children living in workless households in Wales had slightly reduced, they had gone up in Wales’s most deprived communities, from Blaenau Gwent to Bridgend, from Denbighshire to Merthyr, and many more besides?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

It really troubles me that we’ve got children living in workless households and living in poverty wherever they live, whether that be in a Communities First area or elsewhere. And it’s not always a class issue—this can happen to any communities and any individual.

It is an ambition of this Government to tackle the issue around poverty, and that’s why we are looking at reviewing all of our programmes and interventions, to make sure that we tackle the people that need, in a way that we can deliver with our programmes that we are investing in. It doesn’t given me any pleasure to say that those numbers are stubborn. But there’s nothing wrong with any Government with ambition seeking to make those changes.

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

I agree, because, sadly, as you know, Wales still has higher child poverty than Scotland, Northern Ireland and all but two of the nine English regions. At least we’ve pulled ahead of two of those regions—I think London and the East Midlands. But, last week, the royal college of paediatricians said that poverty was the biggest threat to children’s health in Wales. I welcome the news, given your previous comments, that your officials have now met the co-production network for Wales, re-named All in this Together, and I even heard you yesterday refer positively to co-production. How do you respond to the statement from the Well North Wales programme, with which you might be familiar, that the more deprived communities of north Wales have around a 25 per cent higher rate of emergency admission than the more affluent communities, and that there is, therefore, a requirement to tackle issues around deprivation and poverty at a local community level by meeting the principles of prudent health, particularly around co-production?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I’m glad the Member and I are clearly coming together on our policies in some areas. [Laughter.] Let’s not be too ambitious. I think the Member’s right to raise the issue of prudent healthcare. Mark Drakeford has been for a long time raising this in the Cabinet setting, and I share his views on this about prevention and early intervention. And that’s why we are tackling issues around adverse childhood experiences, wherever they exist in families and communities. It’s something that we have to make sure we invest in now, to protect for the future. It’s not just a moral issue, but this is a long-term fiscal issue for any Government in power.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

UKIP spokesperson, Michelle Brown.

Michelle Brown (UKIP, North Wales)

Thank you, Presiding Officer. According to the Fawcett Society, women will lose approximately £300,000 over their working lives because of unequal pay. As you know, enforcement of equal pay legislation is in the hands of the employee. Does the Cabinet Secretary agree with me that ensuring gender-equal pay should be the job of the employer, rather than the employee?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I agree.

Michelle Brown (UKIP, North Wales)

Enforcing equal pay rights is made extremely difficult, if not impossible, by the lack of transparency regarding pay by employers. A worker can’t make a claim regarding equal pay unless they know what everyone else is being paid and have a comparator. Admittedly, the Welsh Government have no control over what private sector employers do. However, Welsh Government does have control over what happens in the public sector in Wales. Does the Cabinet Secretary agree with me that pay data at all levels should be made available to public sector workers to facilitate the enforcement of their equal pay rights?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I think the Member raises an important issue around making sure that we get equality in job evaluation. It’s something that many in this Chamber, in all parties, have championed for many years. Ensuring that that happens is another thing, but we’ve been blighted by the ambulance chasers on trying to stop equal pay on the basis of people wanting to stop the claims going ahead. And I think there are many local authorities that have acted very responsibly in terms of the way they operate. The trade unions have brought forward legislation and support for Government interventions in local authorities, and it’s something that I’m very keen that we pursue.

Michelle Brown (UKIP, North Wales)

I’m sorry, I didn’t quite hear whether you’re prepared to actually introduce pay transparency in the public sector, because if you’re not, can you explain to women in the public sector how they’re going to enforce their equal pay rights if you won’t tell them what the relative pay rates in the rest of their organisation are?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I think there are lots of data out there around pay and pay scales. It is a matter for the employer in terms of how that is given to employees. But employers will not see any closed doors at Welsh Government level in terms of introduction of equal pay.

Simon Thomas (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

3. Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on child zones in Mid and West Wales? OAQ(5)0100(CC)[W]

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I thank the Member for Mid and West Wales for his question. A number of organisations have put forward proposals for pilot children’s zones in Wales. I will announce the pilot areas as soon as we have an opportunity to assess the bids received.

Simon Thomas (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

I thank the Cabinet Secretary for his reply. He knows that I’ve drawn to his attention in the past some examples of very good practice in Mid and West Wales that stand outside some of the Communities First and Government-supported things, and there are some good things happening in the third sector and in the voluntary sector. I met with Jig-So, which is a project in Cardigan, a couple of weeks ago. It’s a long-standing project that works across boundaries, which often means it falls between two stools in terms of support from local authorities, being in Carmarthenshire, north Pembrokeshire and Ceredigion. It works around a crèche provision, training for parents, parenting, cooking skills and young people’s support in general. Is the Cabinet Secretary prepared, or are his officials prepared, to look at projects like Jig-So? Because they feel they’ve got something different and special to offer the concept of children’s zones outside the one that the public sector tends to approach it upon?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

Yes, I’m very happy to have engagement with my teams. As I said, we’ve had a number of applications for the opportunity to run children’s zones across Wales. But I will check with my team whether Jig-So is part of that, and if not, they can have a conversation, of course.

Paul Davies (Conservative, Preseli Pembrokeshire)

Cabinet Secretary, I appreciate that you’re still looking at the issue of children’s zones, and I welcome the fact that the Government is looking at programmes where it can actually work with the third sector much more closely. Now, giving that delivering children’s services in rural parts of Mid and West Wales can be very different to perhaps more urban areas, can you update us on what discussions you’ve had with the third sector on delivering a service that actually meets the needs of families in all parts of Mid and West Wales?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

The Member is right, and what I don’t want to be in the space of is controlling the market. But I think that we do have to give enablement to organisations to be able to deliver schemes for Welsh Government and for the sector. I meet on a regular basis with the WCVA and I’ve also met with organisations such as Flying Start and Families First in various areas to make sure that we’ve got the synergies around that. I’ve recently made an investment with Kirsty Williams and Rebecca Evans around an adverse childhood experiences hub, which is about the development of a programme where we can get all of the expertise, whether that would be in a rural or urban setting, around how we make sure that practice gets out there for delivery. Children’s zones will be part of that, running in parallel to the scheme, to ensure that we get delivery. But the Member’s right to raise the issue of rural communities, and it’s something that we’re very aware of.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Cabinet Secretary, clearly, the deputy director of the children’s and families division has actually highlighted the key criteria for children’s zones, particularly multi-agency work, the anchor companies and the organisations, and the third sector play an important part in that. Now, you’ve received the bids. Will you ensure that the bids actually meet those criteria, to ensure that they are collaborative, that they will meet those criteria and that they will involve the third sector, so that they can go forward with the best strengths?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

Indeed, and that’s the principle of this. This is not additional funding. This is about bringing together what we have and a better implementation of this. There are examples of these children’s zones working across the globe and that’s something that we should use in best practice here in Wales too.

Dawn Bowden (Labour, Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney)

Apologies, Cabinet Secretary, for my inappropriate intervention. I will learn how this process works in due course. I think, to a degree, you’ve probably answered my question, but you’ll be aware from discussions in correspondence that we’ve previously had that I’ve talked to you about a number of schemes within my constituency that are playing an important role in engaging young people in particular. I’m referring particularly to schemes like Forsythia Youth in the Gurnos and the Engine House in Dowlais, which you might be aware of. They provide opportunities for early intervention with a number of youths who probably, without that kind of support, would end up wandering the streets and unfortunately would go on to become young offenders. So, does the Cabinet Secretary agree with me that it’s vital that we don’t lose this type of early intervention scheme? Can he assure me that, under the children’s zones approach, it is envisaged that early intervention schemes will have a crucial role to play?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I thank the Member for her question. Both Dawn and Lynne and many other Members on the benches beside me have made many references to the future of communities and what that looks like, and rightly so, recognising the strengths within their own communities.

Children’s zones are about integration of services and bringing services together. What I can’t commit to is an open cheque book, because the finances are challenged, but I do recognise that intervention, prevention and well-being plans are critical to making sure that we understand how areas work in the future and making sure that, where we can make those clever interventions, we do. I recognise some of the areas that the Member has raised here today.

Vikki Howells (Labour, Cynon Valley)

4. How is the Welsh Government working with partners to improve opportunities for accessible play across Wales? OAQ(5)0096(CC)

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I thank Vikki Howells for her question. We are the first nation to put play on a statutory footing. We require our local authorities, working with partners, to secure, where practicable, play opportunities that meet the needs of all children and young people in their areas. We also provide funding to support this aim.

Vikki Howells (Labour, Cynon Valley)

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary, for your response. Sense, the national charity for those with sensory impairment, has found that 92 per cent of parents with disabled children feel their children do not have the same opportunities to play as their non-disabled peers. Current guidelines, as you so rightly say, state that local authorities must have due regard to making play accessible. I’ve seen good evidence of this in my own area from Rhondda Cynon Taf council, but how does the Welsh Government work with other providers of play areas, such as private housing developments or community councils, to ensure that they also make play areas as accessible as possible?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I think the Member is absolutely right to raise this issue and she champions the cause of disabled children at every opportunity she has. My officials work across policy areas to ensure that play opportunities are sympathetically and appropriately considered in policy development and delivery. On the back of the play sufficiency assessments, officials are examining how policy areas work with their partners, including local authorities, housing associations, and indeed how we operate. Town and country planners are encouraged to make good use of section 106 agreements to make links between stakeholders and partners. I will ask my colleague Lesley Griffiths also to have a look at this in terms of planning proposals and how they operate, particularly with private developers. It’s all right saying that we’ll put a park in place, but a park that’s accessible is a very different park.

Llyr Gruffydd (Plaid Cymru, North Wales)

Accessible play is of course very important, but using play as a therapy as well has a big contribution to make, particularly in terms of those with adverse childhood experiences. It is something that I believe we’re not sufficiently utilising, or certainly not in north Wales from my experience. So, could you tell me what plans the Welsh Government have to expand play therapy services in Wales, and also would you agree to meet with a group of practitioners in north Wales who would want to discuss their ideas about how they could play a stronger role in achieving some of the positive outcomes that we all want to see for children and young people in Wales?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I thank the Member for his question. Indeed, prior to questions today, I met with StreetGames, who told me about the work that’s going on in many communities around Wales where play is an important factor, not just about health benefits, but also about confidence and other aspects of mental health provision et cetera. There’s a huge benefit from play. We are seeking to use play as an alternative therapy—and social prescribing. I’m interested in the Member’s local connection in terms of the group that he talks about. If the Member would like to write to me with details, I’ll give that some consideration.

David Melding (Conservative, South Wales Central)

Cabinet Secretary, it’s often said that play is the work of children, but, in deprived areas, many children just do not have access to safe playing areas. A generation or so ago, they would often have played on the street. Even that is now not an option. And, you’re right—the Welsh Government has a really good record in this area. But I think one weakness is perhaps that it hasn’t got to the planning stage where we look at the provision of play areas, and particularly in those deprived areas, and, where they’re absent, we plan for them. There are ways of doing this, but they require innovation and determination.

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I agree with the Member, and, as I said to Vikki Howells, I will be seeking a conversation with the Minister responsible for planning to see how we can have a holistic approach to development and estate and look at that for the future.

Gareth Bennett (UKIP, South Wales Central)

The Government’s focus on play is welcome. We now have a fairly weighty Government document on this. This document is geared up for schools, nurseries, social workers and local authorities. Surely, a major problem though is that so many parents are sedentary or even obese that we have to persuade them to get out of the house to the local park to play with their kids. So, I wondered what we can do to encourage this aspect.

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

Well, it’s all our job. Governments can do many things, but telling people to get out on their bike is one thing I’m certainly not about to do. One of the innovations of last year—and some people were highly critical of it—was the Pokémon Go app that was used on many phones. I know many kids didn’t look up from their phones and banged into walls et cetera, but it got people out and about. That was a really clever innovation about getting people back into their communities. So, there are programmes out there that we seek to do. Ken Skates is a champion of these proposals, and I have regular conversations with him about how we can get more people active in our communities.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

5. What measures will the Cabinet Secretary take to help tackle domestic violence during the Six Nations rugby tournament and other major sporting events? OAQ(5)0102(CC)

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I thank the Member for his question. The Welsh Government is committed to working with its partners to take every opportunity to tackle domestic violence. Our aim is a more coherent approach to publicity with sustained activity to as wide an audience as possible. As part of this approach, there will be an increased level of social media activity through the Live Fear Free campaign during the period of the six nations.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

I welcome that response. As the Cabinet Secretary knows, there’s growing and damning empirical evidence and applied academic studies highlighting the increased domestic abuse and violence around major sporting events, not just the six nations but the Super Bowl final, the football World Cup and others. Hence, those efforts by the Welsh Government, by the Welsh Rugby Union, by players themselves and others to raise awareness of this deep cultural problem and putting forward measures to turn this around. When Wales played England in Cardiff during the six nations tournament in 2009, South Wales Police recorded a nearly 80 per cent increase in domestic abuse incidents compared to the previous weekend. In the 2012 tournament, there were over 4,300 calls to the all-Wales domestic abuse and sexual violence helpline. That was an increase of almost 10 per cent on the same period the previous year. And when Wales played England during the six nations that year South Wales Police recorded a 76 per cent increase in the numbers of domestic abuse incidents compared to the previous weekend. So, bringing this into the open, raising awareness of the increased threat of domestic abuse around the six nations and major sporting events is only the first stage. We’ve all got a role to play in highlighting this and rugby players themselves have spoken out previously, but what more can the Welsh Government, but also its partners, do to tackle the tough cultural and individual roots of this ongoing problem?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I thank the Member for his contribution. I think sporting events are one aspect of this. But what is absolutely clear is that there is a direct link between alcohol misuse and domestic violence, and that’s where the link is. Usually, this happens at sporting events, so it’s not exactly the rugby or the football, but it’s the cultural events around those that cause the problems. The reporting aspect of this is a positive one. The fact is that people are talking about this now and we are finding access and opportunities to deal with perpetrators and, more importantly, victims of domestic violence, and hopefully clamping down on that. But the Member’s questions was very specific to the six nation’s rugby tournament. I’m quite clear to my team that this message is a daily message, not for six weeks. This is about something we could talk about all of the time and making sure access to services is here and available in Wales.

Bethan Sayed (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

Yesterday, when I knew I was coming in on this supplementary, I did a little question on Facebook to ask people what they thought of the fact that these campaigns have happened. Many people were aware, but there was quite a shocking amount of people who weren’t aware that these publicity campaigns even existed. I could find, via Women’s Aid, some analysis of what’s happened in the UK—England, predominantly—on these awareness campaigns, but nothing in relation to Wales. So, I’m not taking away from how important it is to carry out these campaigns, but I want to understand their effectiveness, I want to understand if they need to be more high profile and if they need to be happening over a longer period of time, because the message that came back to me yesterday was, yes, as you said, it can’t just be a one-time occasion, it has to be systematic and it has to be all year round.

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

And I said that in my previous response. I think there are peak times where sporting events have high pressure for service deliverers, and it’s important for us that we can get a message out to people to say there is a helpline number or a support mechanism in place. But it is something I’m very keen to look at, long term, and I’ve started a discussion with the police and crime commissioners across Wales to ensure that we can have a collective response here, across Wales, of a typical messaging programme that we can share all the year round. So, I’m hopeful that will give us some better outcomes in terms of delivery.

Andrew RT Davies (Conservative, South Wales Central)

Some 10 years ago, my wife was a community midwife, and when I used to hear some of the stories that the community teams would have to pick up on the domestic violence front—from people they would have seen at the end of the week to what they were picking up at the beginning of the week, and the intervening thing that had happened was a major sporting event—it was truly horrific, to say the least. Hearing the opening remarks from the principal questioner here about the increase in percentages that have been identified with the six nations, but, indeed, many sporting events, the one underlying factor here is alcohol predominantly, and drugs, being an issue in driving people down this road of domestic violence. How confident are you, Minister—and I commend you for the work you’ve done on this particular aspect—how confident are you that community support teams, whether they be in health or social services, or in the charitable sector, are resilient enough to actually be able to be there to support people who do find themselves in this horrific predicament of domestic violence, and be able to offer a way out of what seems to be a downward spiral that ultimately can lead to catastrophic events within those families and, ultimately, suicide?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

Domestic violence is an epidemic, and I’m not sure—. We’ve just uncovered the top of the iceberg of this, and service delivery is challenged. And I’ve asked my senior adviser, in terms of the domestic violence adviser, which is in the Act, to look at a sustainable funding model and to see if we can work with the sector to deliver better services, longer term. I would like to invest more finances into this proposal, because the more facilities we build, the more people will access those. What is true is that, when we signpost somebody through a helpline or through a connection through health visitors or otherwise, it is absolutely critical that we have a follow-up procedure to that. Rather than just telling people, ‘You’ve disclosed’, you’ve got to ensure that there’s a service pathway in place, and I’m very keen to make sure that happens. I’m confident at the moment we can deliver, and we do, but it will get even more challenging. The more people who present—and rightly so, that they present—we will be challenged in making sure that we can deliver for these people.

Jayne Bryant (Labour, Newport West)

6. Will the Cabinet Secretary outline how the Welsh Government assists voluntary organisations that help support health services? OAQ(5)0099(CC)

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I thank the Newport West Member for her question. I have provided £4.4 million of funding this year for county voluntary councils across Wales and to the Wales Council for Voluntary Action to ensure support is available to third sector organisations. This includes support with fundraising, good governance and placing volunteers.

Jayne Bryant (Labour, Newport West)

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. Like many Members, I’ve had the privilege of meeting voluntary groups and seeing the amazing work that they do. One fine example in my constituency are the Robins, who are volunteers from Age Cymru, working with Aneurin Bevan Local Health Board, who provide support for vulnerable patients at the Royal Gwent and St Woolos hospitals. They take time to talk and read to patients, do their hair and nails, and provide assistance at meal times, make visits to shops and many other things that can make a really big difference. Both staff at the hospital and the patients describe the Robins as invaluable. Will the Cabinet Secretary commend the work of the Robins, who are making a difference for the better in Newport, and commend the efforts of all those who give up their time to volunteer?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

Thank you for your question. Almost 1 million people in Wales volunteer in some way every year, and their contribution to society is invaluable. I want to say a big thank you to them. I also want to give a big thumbs up to the Robins in your constituency. I’m sure if we could do three cheers, they’d have them here, but, indeed, Jayne, I’m grateful for your raising this with me today, recognising the good work that they do, and please pass on my congratulations to that organisation.

Llyr Gruffydd (Plaid Cymru, North Wales)

There are almost 80 charitable and voluntary groups working with patients and healthcare staff in north Wales alone, and if there are 80 organisations, then there are hundreds upon hundreds of volunteers and therefore thousands of voluntary hours donated to support their work. The return on quite a small investment is very substantial indeed. Can I ask you, therefore, given that you say that funding has been allocated to support much of this work, do you recognise that the statutory services in place at present are under more pressure than ever and that, as a result of that, the voluntary organisations and volunteers are also under pressure to meet the additional needs that fall on them? Can you tell us what more you as a Government hope to do to support them?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

The conversations I have with the Wales Council for Voluntary Action and CVCs are important ones on the basis that I know that if we didn’t have volunteers in our communities, statutory services would collapse; we wouldn’t be able to deliver the things that we want to do together. That’s why I value the work that these organisations do. But I’m under no illusion that what we have to do is take out some of the duplication and make sure we’ve got good, efficient services, and that accounts for both the voluntary sector and the third sector, and also the public sector response as well. Working together, we can get through this. But, as I’ve said in the past, I’ve made £4.4 million of funding available this year, and I will look carefully at how that develops over the next coming years.

Mohammad Asghar (Conservative, South Wales East)

Cabinet Secretary, the Red Cross offers regular support to ambulance services in Wales during routine work and major incidents. What assistance does the Welsh Government provide to the Red Cross to enable them to continue providing the most valuable support to Welsh ambulance services?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

Indeed. I thank the Member for his question. The Red Cross and St John Ambulance both do some terrific work across Wales, and I would say—I don’t have the details of numbers for the Red Cross, specifically, in Wales—a big thank you to them. And the UK Government should be saying a big thank you to the Red Cross too. During the crisis that appeared over the border in a health setting, the Red Cross stepped in to help the statutory services in the delivery of services. So, we shouldn’t ever take away from the fact that these worthy volunteers are doing a great job in all of our communities.

Caroline Jones (UKIP, South Wales West)

Cabinet Secretary, having attended the recent AGM of the Swansea Council for Voluntary Service, I was amazed by the sheer number of voluntary organisations offering health-related support operating in my region. I was already aware of the excellent work undertaken by the likes of Tŷ Elis in Porthcawl and the Sandville Self Help Centre in Ton Kenfig, but, at the SCVS meeting, I met people from the Interact scheme, Caer Las and the mental health and well-being volunteer project to name but a few. All of these projects offer vital support to our NHS, yet very few receive any direct financial support from the Welsh Government. Cabinet Secretary, given that these voluntary organisations save the health and social care sector many millions of pounds, what additional support can the Welsh Government offer to them?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I can offer warm words; I can’t offer finances, unfortunately. It would be dishonest of me to say that, but I thank all of these organisations that step into the void sometimes where people are in need, and the third sector organisations are in the right place to deliver that; they understand communities very well. So, as much as I’d like to support all of the organisations in Wales, it would just be fiscally impossible. But I do recognise the work that goes on in all of our communities.

Nick Ramsay (Conservative, Monmouth)

7. Will the Cabinet Secretary outline his priorities for strengthening communities in Wales? OAQ(5)0098(CC)

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I thank the Member for Monmouth for his question. My priorities for strengthening communities focus on three key areas: early years, employment and empowerment. I am currently considering views from a broad programme of engagement on a new approach to building resilient communities. I will make a further statement in due course.

Nick Ramsay (Conservative, Monmouth)

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. As I’m sure you’re aware, I have a short debate later today on the Cardiff capital city region deal. It won’t be you who will be responding; that will be the Cabinet Secretary for finance. In that debate, I’ll be raising the fact that it’s a deal with much potential for the future, and clearly, about growing connections between communities that will strengthen those communities—that’s urban and rural communities. What discussions have you had with the finance Cabinet Secretary about utilising the substantial city deal funding coming not just from this place, but also coming from Westminster to make sure that that funding does go into strengthening our rural communities and strengthening projects such as the south Wales metro, which will ensure that people living out in some of those more distant parts of the South Wales East region are able to get to areas like Cardiff and Newport as quickly and as easily as possible to ensure that they’re economically better off?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I think the Member is absolutely right to raise this issue. The principles that the Government is working on are based on the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015, about making sure that we can build this jigsaw together, but also put a picture on it so that we know and understand what the future looks like for our communities and our families across where we represent. The metro or the city deal is just one aspect of making sure that we’ve got the well-being of individuals at the forefront of our decision-making processes.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Cabinet Secretary, obviously resilient communities also depend upon not just the three factors you mentioned but also the health and well-being of those communities to ensure they’re in a position to take advantage of all the other aspects. To that end, Communities First at the moment has an element of health and well-being within it, and you’ve said in a previous statement that you’re minded to look at the other three. What discussions have you had with the Cabinet Secretary for Health, Well-being and Sport to ensure that the health boards can actually get involved in this process but also have sufficient funding to do so, because it’s important that we get those health and well-being areas of those communities strong?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

Of course, and I said earlier on to a previous question what our vision is in terms of building resilient communities, and what is about economic regeneration, jobs and growth and what is about well-being. I’ve already had discussions with the Cabinet Secretary for health and other Ministers across the department about how we look at our funding streams and move into a prevention and early intervention process while doing the day job as well, because we’ve got to get a well nation, a well-being service rather than a health service, and I’m sure that my colleagues across Cabinet are responding to that in the way that we develop our policies for the future.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary—I do apologise. Simon Thomas.

Roeddwn ychydig yn rhyfygus. Simon Thomas.

Simon Thomas (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

Thank you, Llywydd. Thank you very much.

Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet, fe sonioch am rymuso fel un o’ch themâu, ac os yw hynny’n mynd i olygu unrhyw beth o gwbl, rhaid iddo gynnwys grymuso’r bobl sydd fwyaf ar y cyrion yn ein cymunedau. Hoffwn dynnu eich sylw at brosiect o’r enw Prosiect Undod yng Nghil-maen yn Sir Benfro, sy’n brosiect ymhlith y gymuned Sipsiwn a Theithwyr yno. Daeth aelod o’r gymuned honno i gysylltiad â mi, unigolyn sydd wedi defnyddio’r prosiect i ddatblygu ei sgiliau ac i hyfforddi i lefel gradd, ond mae’n bryderus iawn fod y prosiect yn dod i ben bellach ac na fydd pobl eraill tebyg iddi hi o gymuned y Sipsiwn a Theithwyr yn cael y cyfle hwnnw. Rwy’n deall mai Achub y Plant sy’n darparu’r prosiect, o bosibl, a Chyngor Sir Penfro, ond rwy’n gofyn i chi: a ydych yn ymwybodol o’r prosiect hwn a pha drafodaethau yr ydych yn eu cael gyda Chyngor Sir Penfro, gan fod nifer o gymunedau Sipsiwn a Theithwyr yn yr ardal honno, ynglŷn â sicrhau bod y cymunedau hynny’n cael eu grymuso hefyd?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

Indeed, and the Member’s right to raise the issue. Empowerment isn’t about restricting it to class or culture; this is about all-inclusiveness. Interestingly, the Member Julie Morgan raised this very issue with me yesterday about the Unity Project. I understand it’s a project that was funded by the Big Lottery Fund. I think it came to an end yesterday, if I’m right in thinking, but I will ask my officials to look at the detail of that, because the Gypsy/Traveller community are one of the most vulnerable communities in the UK. The life chances of this community are very poor. It’s something that we should take responsibility for.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary.

3. Urgent Question: Ophthalmology Services

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

I have accepted one urgent question under Standing Order 12.66. I call on Rhun ap Iorwerth to ask the urgent question.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Ynys Môn)

Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on the Welsh Government’s response to the Healthcare Inspectorate Wales report on ophthalmology services in Wales? EAQ(5)0116(HWS)

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Thank you for the question. We have action in place to improve our healthcare in Wales through the eye care delivery plan, together with the planned care ophthalmology improvement plan. The HIW report underscores the need for further improvement across Wales. I expect health boards to implement the required actions to ensure better outcomes for all patients.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Ynys Môn)

Thank you for that answer. In a recent audit of health issues brought to my attention by constituents, ophthalmology actually was near the top of the list, making me think that there is a particular issue here. Of course, with ophthalmology, a long waiting time is more than just an inconvenience or a longer time than necessary in pain, because we know that long waiting times for some patients are causing harm, including sight loss, and the report does show that. It also says that management in two health boards are prioritising lower-risk patients who are more straightforward to treat over those with greater clinical need so they can avoid failing to meet referral-to-treatment time targets. Will the Government investigate, as a matter of urgency, that very serious allegation, and will action be taken against managers who are found to have acted in this way, and will there be a review of the targets, with clinicians and with patients also, to ensure a more robust system designed to prevent sight loss?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Thank you for the series of points and questions there. It’s worth reminding us all that there is, of course, increasing demand for eye healthcare. So, it’s part of the ability to detect more conditions, but also the success story of more of us living longer. Of course, not all waits cause harm, but some potentially do, and there’s the point about clinical need.

I take a slight issue with just some of the language but not the thrust, as it were, of your question, in that managers may not have done this, because HIW recognise in their report, in the language, that it does not know if the allegations are true, or represent a systemic policy by the health board. But I have been clear, on several occasions in the past, that patients should be seen in order of clinical need. I’ve already asked my officials to contact the health board mentioned to go through the allegations that are made.

On your broader point about outcome measures, it’s fair to say the Royal National Institute of Blind People, for example, support our agenda and the moves that we’re making to improve eye healthcare, with more care in the community, and they, as do I, want to see more pace and consistency. I’ve had a very constructive conversation with them about both what we are doing and the areas of challenge, and that includes our targets and outcome measures, because I think there is a powerful case that our current RTT targets in this area do not promote the best interests of patients, or help to support the service to make sure that clinical need is the prioritisation. So, there is an ongoing conversation between the RNIB and clinicians about how we reform and revise those targets, and I’m expecting to have a report come to me this spring. So, there’s work already in train, because I’ve already recognised that we could and should make improvements to not just service, but how we measure and understand what success looks like in the service to support and underpin best clinical practice.

Caroline Jones (UKIP, South Wales West)

Cabinet Secretary, the HIW report focused primarily on wet age-related macular degeneration services, but the problems highlighted reflect wider problems with ophthalmology services in Wales. Waiting lists for ophthalmology are excessively high. RNIB Cymru have repeatedly highlighted that patients are going blind whilst waiting for treatment. Every time the RNIB raise this issue, they’re told that the RNIB’s views do not reflect the current position of services in Wales.

The latest waiting times figures show that the average waiting time for cataract surgery is 115 days—twice as long as in England. That’s the current situation, and when you combine this with the fact that many ophthalmologists are having to rely on posting photos of retinopathy because the IT systems are not up to scratch, you can see why the RNIB make such claims.

Cabinet Secretary, what is your Government going to do to ensure ophthalmology services in Wales meet the needs of the constituents?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Thank you for the comments. I think in my supplementary response to Rhun ap Iorwerth’s first two questions, I tried to set out that we recognise that we are actually saving the sight of more and more people. The challenge is that more and more people need to have the service. There are more and more people coming into our services—it’s about meeting the demand that we have. That’s why we do need to have the sort of system reform that is set out in the Government plans, which has been put together with clinicians. There is no hiding away from that, and I’ve never tried to do that, but I don’t think people should take the view that every single thing said by the questioner necessarily accurately represents the RNIB’s view. For example, on cataract waits, it’s an area where you can wait for a longer period of time without there being clinical harm. If we get lost into saying, ‘Cataract waits must come down as the priority’, we’re potentially then skewing our system in a direction that does not meet clinical need.

Our RTT times are actually falling in ophthalmology, but our challenge is not just are our current RTT measures falling, but actually whether they’re the right and the sort of intelligent measures that we should have to tell us about how successful our service is, and I think there’s a powerful case that they don’t. That’s why I’ve told the service, with the RNIB, that I want to see us having a different approach, to try and have a more intelligent approach to this. We’re already investing in IT to make sure that images are able to be swapped digitally between secondary and primary care, and we’re giving out messages for people to go to their high-street optometrist for eye health care, not to a GP. So, we’re doing much of what the question suggests we should do. The challenges are the pace, the consistency and an intelligent set of performance measures.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary.

4. 3. 90-second Statements

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

There were no requests to make 90-second statements this week.

5. 4. Statement by the Chair of the Public Accounts Committee on Committee-led Inquiries

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The next item on our agenda is a statement by the Chair of the Public Accounts Committee on committee-led inquiries, and I call on the Chair, Nick Ramsay.

Nick Ramsay (Conservative, Monmouth)

Diolch, Lywydd. Can I thank you for the opportunity to speak today and to inform my fellow Assembly Members about the work of the Public Accounts Committee? As Members will be aware, the Public Accounts Committee is responsible for considering and investigating the value-for-money reports produced by the Auditor General for Wales. To date in this Assembly, we have already undertaken a number of inquiries based on these reports, including Kancoat and coastal flood and erosion, and we have a number of other inquiries scheduled, including income generation and charging and medicine management.

To complement this work, at the start of this Assembly, the committee decided to build on the innovative work of the Public Accounts Committee during the last Assembly, who introduced the concept of committee-led inquiries in the field of public accounts. So, as a committee, we agreed to develop an ambitious programme of inquiries to undertake during this Assembly, and we intend to place people firmly at the heart of each of our committee-led inquiries. This is, hopefully, a positive innovation, which will make the vital work of the Public Accounts Committee more comprehensible to everyone in Wales.

Firstly, we’ve agreed to undertake a thematic approach to our annual scrutiny of accounts, so, for example, for the 2015-16 accounts, we focused on educational bodies, which we found, in the main, to be in good order. We believe that taking a different theme for each year will add clarity for the public on this work. Although, in doing this, we may not always unearth any skeletons in the closets of organisations, but it has had a deterrent effect in ensuring that publicly funded organisations in Wales feel pressure at all levels to ensure taxpayers’ money is being spent in the most effective way possible. And, indeed, just this week, the committee agreed to call the National Library of Wales back in for account scrutiny in September, having considered the recent auditor general’s report on governance at the national library—particularly pertinent given the concerns the previous Public Accounts Committee raised about governance arrangements.

Our significant piece of committee-led work for the spring term is to consider the regulatory oversight of housing associations. We’re interested in this issue because housing associations receive significant amounts of public money, play an important role in combatting homelessness and contribute to the wider economy. The committee wants to make sure that the current regulatory arrangements are effective and efficient and that governance arrangements within the sector are robust. This is a timely piece of work, given the discussions around the classification of these important bodies by the Office for National Statistics. As a piece of work that has been driven by the committee, we’ve been able to put tenants at the heart of this inquiry, which is something the Welsh Government regulations aim to achieve. We have already held an engaging and informative stakeholder event with a range of tenants and will be issuing a survey tomorrow aimed at reaching as diverse an audience as possible. We have proactively engaged with relevant organisations to cascade the work of the committee and to establish an open dialogue with those stakeholders at all levels.

The committee has also begun to scope out our next piece of work looking at regional education consortia. Members may already have seen the useful memorandum prepared by the auditor general for the committee setting out the current position with the consortia. The committee have started to gather evidence for this and have just issued a joint survey with the Children, Young People and Education Committee—which is an innovative step in the hope of reducing consultation fatigue—to hear from teachers and professionals who’ve been impacted by the changes.

Finally, on the horizon, we are intending to do a substantial piece of work looking at the governance arrangements and support for looked-after children. We’ve identified four strands for this: expenditure and value for money of public services for looked-after children; value for money of the pupil deprivation grant for looked-after children; value for money and the effectiveness of current arrangements for foster placements; and the effectiveness of local authority corporate parenting arrangements. We will be approaching this as a rolling programme of work, playing on the power of persistence that we will not go away until we see some substantial improvements in how public money is spent in this area.

Although much of what I have outlined today about aiming to make our work more citizen focused may not be hugely innovative for the wider policy-based committees of the Assembly, it is a big step for a public accounts committee, and hopefully will help to engage people and increase understanding and awareness around our role as stewards of the public purse. I would like to take this opportunity to encourage all Members to promote this work, in particular our surveys, and bring forward any areas you think the committee should consider in the future. Diolch yn fawr.

Mike Hedges (Labour, Swansea East)

I very much welcome the statement by Nick Ramsay, and I congratulate him on the way he has chaired the committee over the last few months. Sometimes, though, the Public Accounts Committee feels a bit like a treadmill: the auditor general produces a report, we get a presentation, the Government civil servants and other witnesses come in, we produce a report, which is then sent off to the Government, which responds, and then we start again like some form of infinite computer loop. The opportunity for committee-led inquiries is a good one, and a very important one. I think the one thing that really is important is that we don’t duplicate what is being done by other committees. That is one of the problems of public accounts because it is so far ranging and can cover anything done by the Government, or by the Assembly. It can be able to do things, only to find that, at some later stage, another committee has started off doing exactly the same thing, or has planned to do such a thing. I think that it really is important that we have a system by which we ensure that, if some other committee is doing it, either the Public Accounts Committee takes the lead on it or the other committee takes the lead on it. But I don’t think we’ve got enough time or people in order to do something twice.

I know that we all have our own interests, and we all have our own past experiences, and I think it really is important that we give other Members, not on the committee, an opportunity to suggest committee-led inquiries. Perhaps the Chair can say how people can do that. I could probably keep it going with my own suggestions over the next five years, but I don’t think that I, or any other Member, no matter who they are or where they serve, have all the knowledge and experience or a monopoly on good ideas. I think that there should be an opportunity for any Member here to be able to suggest to the Public Accounts Committee an area where it would be beneficial for them to do a committee-led inquiry. We may, Chair—under your direction—not take it up, but I think Members throughout the Chamber should have the opportunity to be able to put forward suggestions, because they may well have a better suggestion than those of us on the committee. So, can you say how that can be carried out, so that Members can have an opportunity to put ideas forward for what we could look at?

Nick Ramsay (Conservative, Monmouth)

Can I thank Mike Hedges for his warm words there? You are right; it does often feel like we are on a treadmill. I know that all of the committees of this Assembly have their work cut out, but I think it’s unusual for committees to change gear as much as we do, from area to area, and sometimes within the committee meeting; whether we’re looking at a health issue or looked-after children, as we will be doing, we are changing constantly. It’s been some years since I’ve been on the Public Accounts Committee as a normal member—if I can use that expression—back in 2008-09. Not that I’m abnormal now, of course, being the Chair, but, well, that’s for you to consider. It was 2008-09 and the committee has changed significantly since then. What’s still the same, of course, is that we’re an unusual committee because we do have the auditor general on board. We do have his advice, we do have his reports, but we do differ from public accounts committees elsewhere—and increasingly so—because we are looking to diversify our work, and not just to take forward the work of the auditor general, but also to take forward our own committee reports as well. On that point, Mike Hedges, I think you’re quite right: it’s not just for us within the committee to suggest that work; it is for other Assembly Members too. This is a forum today. I’m sure that when we bring forward other work, Members would like to bring forward their suggestions, even if it’s just by word of mouth. We are a listening and open committee, and we aim to be increasingly so.

I would thank you, Mike. I know that you’ve been on the committee for some time before me over recent years. I’m also on the Finance Committee with you, so I don’t get that much chance away from you, but you are always there for advice and support. At the start of this Assembly session, when the committee was re-established, we were dealing with lots of inquiries from the previous Public Accounts Committee, which I know did cause confusion, not just with me, but with newer members of the committee as well. We’re moving beyond that now. We are moving towards looking at new work brought forward by the auditor general and new work brought forward by Members as well. But I’m open to suggestions, so please feel free to approach me or other members of the committee at any point to suggest how you would like the Public Accounts Committee to move forward in future.

Neil McEvoy (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

I’m really glad the Member has just said what he said. I’d like to pay tribute to Nick Ramsay that he chairs the committee in such an equitable way. I’d like to pay tribute to Mike as well, who does a great job on Petitions Committee—the quickest committee in the Senedd, I think. Very well chaired.

Moving on, if we look at what the Public Accounts Committee has been looking at with Kancoat, then we’re talking about very serious matters. I’d like the Senedd just to listen to the following in terms of questionable Government expenditure: Kancoat, £3.4 million; the Lisvane land deal, the taxpayer lost £39 million; Rhoose, the land there, we lost £7 million; OysterWorld, the games company, £1.4 million; two shops in Pontypridd, £1 million; Cardiff Aviation, it’s alleged that £1.5 million is owed in rent; and Kukd.com, well, all the payments from the Government have been suspended because the parent company is being investigated by HMRC for irregularities in its tax affairs. We had thousands of pounds spent on David Goldstone, the millionaire, to stay in the Hilton in Cardiff, and Ministers, when you answer questions about use of the ministerial car, this all adds up to just over £53 million. I think the former Minister should be brought before the Public Accounts Committee to answer for decisions made. And if the former Minister won’t come along, we should call the First Minister, who is ultimately responsible.

We need to get serious about ending financial waste in Wales, and I think the Public Accounts Committee is the perfect place to do that. So, I’d ask the Chair if he would accept my call to put to the committee the suggestion of a forensic—a forensic—investigation into all these matters, because Labour incompetence is endangering devolution, and we have to shed light on these matters and bring transparency. Thank you. Diolch.

Nick Ramsay (Conservative, Monmouth)

I would agree with the opening of the Member’s comments there. We are an eclectic mix on the Public Accounts Committee. I chose my words carefully there. We do have a robust exchange of views. We work together where necessary, but also individuals have their own views. You are right as well, Neil, that this is a committee with an incredibly serious workload, a huge workload, looking at the value for money of public spend across a wide range of areas in Wales. We could probably meet—I’m not suggesting this, by the way—every day and still not have enough time to get through the workload involved.

Okay, going back to your basic points there, you’ve mentioned Kancoat, and I mentioned it in my opening statement. We know there have been issues there. What I would say, as you know, is that the Public Accounts Committee, in terms of its operation, is primarily concerned with the operational decisions of Government, which is why we take evidence from a wide range of officials, right up to and including the Permanent Secretary—the last Permanent Secretary, and the new Permanent Secretary will be coming in in the near future. That’s our standard practice. Now, we can of course call anyone, but I would have to say that we would have to be clear, there would have to be a clear indication in the evidence we receive from the officials, operationally, that calling particularly an ex-Minister would be beneficial to our inquiries. You clearly believe that evidence we’ve taken to date does warrant that. Witnesses are, of course, a matter for the committee as a whole to consider, and I think it would be breaking with precedent for me or any other Member in this Plenary to say that that should happen. So, this is a matter for the Public Accounts Committee, and you know that, Neil McEvoy. If you want to bring that request to the committee, we will all consider it and I’m sure we will make a considered response. But I would say that, in the first instance, we are responsible for scrutinising the officials. We’re not a subject committee, we’re not looking at policy; we’re looking at operational activity. In that sense, you would have to have very clear evidence that we were calling in witnesses for the right reasons. But, as I say, it’s a matter for the committee to consider and not a matter for this Plenary.

Mohammad Asghar (Conservative, South Wales East)

As one of the longest serving members of this committee, for the last 10 years to be precise, and after 45 years as an accountant in public practice, I know a little bit about figure work. Neil McEvoy just wanted to know about financial irregularity. We’ve got to look into the Wales Audit Office’s reports. I agree with you that a forensic examination should be done by that department, and then they could give us the report. There is no reason why not, if anybody does a bad job, either political or financial. If Tony Blair can go to the House of Commons accounts committee to explain to the MPs why he went to Iraq, why can’t some Assembly Members who made some wrong financial decisions come to our committee to give answers?

I would like to thank Nick Ramsay for his statement and congratulate him on his distinguished chairmanship of the committee. One of the strengths of the Public Accounts Committee is that we are able to initiate our own inquiries, alongside the work of the Wales Audit Office. So, may I ask how you see the work of the Public Accounts Committee developing in future, with particular reference to the relationship between the committee and the audit office? That’s what I’m interested to know.

Nick Ramsay (Conservative, Monmouth)

Thank you, Oscar, and thank you for your warm words. It’s been a pleasure working with you on the committee over the last few months as well. I don’t think that was a request for us to call Tony Blair to the Welsh Public Accounts Committee—at least I’m not taking it as such—but I take your point. The point is, as a committee, we are free to make requests to any members of the public to come and speak to the committee if we believe that the evidence justifies it. It is a big workload and often the evidence that we receive does lead us to take evidence from witnesses we didn’t consider initially. But as I say, we have to be evidence based in that respect.

In terms of your key question, you kind of answered it yourself in the question. We have a balance to be struck between considering the Wales Audit Office’s work on the one hand and now conducting our own Member-led inquiries. I know that, in this Assembly certainly, many members of the committee are eager for us to carry out our own inquiries, and not just short, sharp inquiries. In terms of looked-after children, which I know Lee Waters has been particularly interested in, in making sure that we do a medium- or long-term piece of work that doesn’t just get forgotten on a dusty shelf a year or two years afterwards, but that we do mean business and we are going to revisit that issue in the future to make sure that things have improved, because that’s too important an area. It’s one example of an area that’s too important for us not to revisit and make sure that they are listening to our requests.

I would say, finally, in terms of your question, it’s for me as the Chair, with your assistance of course as members, to make sure that I do get that balance right. And I’m sure that if I don’t get it right at any point you’ll be the first—well, you are the first to tell me, I know that, so I probably don’t need to mention that. Or I shouldn’t remind him. So, I will continue to endeavour to do that. But do not be afraid to tell me if you feel I’m getting the balance wrong, because I’m only human.

David Melding (Conservative, South Wales Central)

I declare my interest as the Chair of the ministerial advisory group on outcomes for children. Can I welcome the decision of the Public Accounts Committee to carry out a comprehensive piece of work on services for looked-after children? I think this will help the ministerial advisory group in its work to advise on how a national plan and programme can be developed, with the aim of producing the best quality services for looked-after children anywhere in the UK or even further afield. So, I do look forward to following your deliberations.

Just as you were saying on the work you’ve done on housing—that you wanted tenants to be key to the inquiry—I think it’s very important that you are able to engage with looked-after children and care leavers in particular, either through direct evidence or outreach methods in terms of gathering evidence. There are organisations like Voices from Care and Children in Wales that can advise on this, because I think it would be an outstanding opportunity for their voice to be heard directly.