Senedd Cymru (Welsh Parliament), 1 March 2017

283 contributions from 41 members. The official report.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

I call the National Assembly to order. And may I start by wishing you all a very happy St David’s Day?

1. Urgent Question: Ford in Bridgend

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

And the first item on our agenda this afternoon is an urgent question. I have accepted an urgent question under Standing Order 12.66, and I call on Adam Price to ask the urgent question.

Adam Price (Plaid Cymru, Carmarthen East and Dinefwr)

Thank you, Llywydd.

Adam Price (Plaid Cymru, Carmarthen East and Dinefwr)

Will the Cabinet Secretary give a statement on reports that Ford plans to cut over 1,000 jobs from its engine plant in Bridgend? EAQ(5)0140(EI)

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Yes. I spoke this morning with Ford’s vice-president, who confirmed that there is no employment risk at the Bridgend site in the short term, and that employment numbers will remain broadly similar to today, up to 2021. However, I reiterated our position that we stand ready to do all we can to support the plant in becoming more productive and, crucially, in securing new products for the plant, from 2021 onwards.

Adam Price (Plaid Cymru, Carmarthen East and Dinefwr)

I’m sure the Cabinet Secretary would agree that the loss of these jobs—over two thirds of the jobs—at our third largest manufacturing plant, would be terrible news for the workers, the families, the communities affected, but also for the whole of Wales, on this, our national day. He referred to the assurances that he has had previously, and had reiterated, until 2021. Can he say when he, for the first time, heard about the plans to reduce these jobs in 2021? Did he hear overnight, with shock and dismay, like the rest of us? Does he feel that he, in any way, and the workforce, are being misled by the company management? Is he satisfied that we are having the right engagement with the company, at the right time, in the right place, with the right person?

In September, he promised to visit the Detroit global headquarters of the Ford Motor Company. I understand that visit did not materialise. Last month, he said,

‘If that means going to Detroit, we will go to Detroit.’

Will he now go to Detroit, or will the First Minister, who is in the United States for St David’s Day, urgently change his travel plans? We know this is a company that actually listens to political leaders when they lobby them. We had that, of course, when the planned factory for Mexico was changed, moved to Michigan, as a result of a phone call from the White House.

Now, Ford is a company that is pivoting towards new brands and new technologies, including electric vehicles and driverless cars. What specific progress is he able to report on evaluating the prospects for these technologies in Bridgend? Can he say whether, in his assessment, our exiting the European Union and the affect that this had on Ford, through the devaluation of sterling losing the company, by their own assessment, $600 million a year, has been a factor in their stated plan to seek job cuts and efficiencies throughout its European division?

And, finally, can I say that, if this is now on the agenda—losing two thirds of employment at our third biggest manufacturing plant—does he agree that that would be an economic crisis every bit as serious as the one that we faced recently in steel? And will the Welsh Government, therefore, jointly with the UK Government, with unions, and sector representatives, convene an urgent summit on the future of the Welsh and UK automotive industry?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

I’d like to thank Adam Price for his questions and say that our objective is in averting what could be a crisis, as outlined by the Member. I recognise fully the considerable skills that are apparent at the Bridgend plant, the loyalty of the workforce and, clearly, the anxiety that will be felt by workers and their families right now. There is also a risk not just to the automotive sector in south Wales, but to the supply chain that benefits from the existence of Ford here, and to the wider Welsh economy. And, for that reason, we are absolutely determined to do everything we can to ensure that Ford finds new opportunities, new products to bring to Bridgend, in the next decade.

I spoke with the vice-president because the vice-president is the person who will make the decision on Ford in Europe and, therefore, on Ford in Bridgend. But I’ve been very clear that if there is anybody else that needs to be engaged anywhere around the world, including in the United States, I would be happy to do so. But it is my firm belief now that it is the vice-president that ultimately will be making future decisions about the plant and where products in Europe will be manufactured.

The detail of what has been presented this morning is a worst-case scenario for the Bridgend plant if no new products are secured in the next decade. That is why I am determined to work with not just the company, but also with the workforce and their representatives in the unions, to identify the opportunities that Ford itself has spoken about being able to attract to Bridgend. I wish to, in the coming weeks and coming years, understand better what specific products Ford Europe are looking to bring to Bridgend, so that we as a Welsh Government can continue to support the company, as we have done since the dawn of devolution. There is no doubt that the loss of EU membership does pose a very significant challenge for Ford in Bridgend and, indeed, the automotive industry across Wales and the UK. All of the engines produced there go to Europe to then be sold back within Ford automobiles. And that’s the reason why the First Minister has been absolutely consistent throughout the Brexit talks that our top priority must be free and unfettered access to the single market, as made clear in the White Paper.

I do believe that in order to avert the crisis that the Member talks of, we need to have a more meaningful engagement from the UK Government, and what is surely good for Nissan is also good for Ford. I’m also keen to ensure, as I’ve spoken of on previous occasions here in the Chamber, that we secure as much of the £2 billion of research development and innovation funding announced by the UK Government for the Welsh economy and for advanced manufacturing, where we know Wales has a very proud track record. Today is a day of anxiety, there is no doubt, for the workforce, but I am determined to bring together the company, the unions and the workforce to identify the products that will give Ford Bridgend a longer term viable future.

Russell George (Conservative, Montgomeryshire)

Cabinet Secretary, I think you’re right—there is a lot of anxiety today, since this news came to light yesterday. Adam Price did ask specifically—I don’t think you answered his point—about the First Minister’s schedule whilst he’s in the US. And can I ask if the First Minister has amended his itinerary, and will he be attempting to meet Ford executives whilst he is in the US? Perhaps you could update us on that.

The concerns, of course, are based on the assumption that Ford is unable to bring in any new work. You said in answer to two previous questions that you stand ready as a Government to be supportive to the situation, but can I ask for some specifics? What specifically is the Welsh Government prepared to contribute?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

The Member may be aware of numerous forms of support that the Welsh Government has been able to offer Ford over many years. In fact, since 1978, Ford in Bridgend has benefited to the tune of approximately £140 million. Since the dawn of devolution, we’ve been able to support Ford with skills training packages, with capital expenditure, with infrastructure support, and we stand ready to do that again. In particular, I’m keen to ensure that we draw down and utilise research and development funding, so that we can attract new forms of engine manufacturing, and new forms of motor development to Wales, and specifically to Ford. I’d like to explore the opportunity for joint ventures between Ford and other original equipment manufacturers, because I do believe that when it comes to electric vehicles in particular, there are huge opportunities to be had in OEMs working more closely together. And if Welsh Government can facilitate an agreement between Ford and another manufacturer, we would happily do so, and we would support any joint venture, with financial support, if required and if viable.

Now, in terms of the FMs visit to the United States, the First Minister has already announced, during his trip to the United States, a further investment by GE, and I think that demonstrates how we have a strong track record as a Government of securing additional work for existing investors in Wales. We will go on doing that with Ford. But I must stress again that I have spoken with the decision maker in Ford. I will meet again with the decision maker in Ford to constantly press upon her the loyalty of the workforce, the skills at the plant, the track record of this Government working with Ford, the investment that we placed in it, and, above all, the interest that Ford itself should have in being in one of the most productive countries in western Europe.

Caroline Jones (UKIP, South Wales West)

Cabinet Secretary, without knowing the authenticity or even the validity of this so-called leaked document, we have to be extremely careful about whipping up hysteria about job losses at Ford’s engine plant at Bridgend. The only official indications we have had from Ford is that they’re scaling back investment, but they are still making a multimillion pound investment at Bridgend. It’s too early to be talking about strike action. If Ford did announce that this is their intention, to cut back in Bridgend, it’s my region, and then I would fight alongside everyone else and stand shoulder to shoulder with my constituents and the unions in opposing job losses. But, until then, I think we must try and calm the situation. Cabinet Secretary, do you agree with me that it is too early to be even considering strike action and will you assure my constituents that you will do everything you can to ensure that Ford continue to invest in the Bridgend plant?

Finally, Cabinet Secretary, can you update us on the discussions you’ve had with the UK Government about joint action you can take together to secure the long-term future of the engine plant in Bridgend?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Can I thank the Member for her questions and reiterate the point that was made to me—the assurance that was given to me by Ford’s vice-president—that there are no employment risks today? But we’ve always known that the risk is longer term for Ford in Bridgend. From 2021, the challenge is in finding new products that can be manufactured at the plant. In recent months, we’ve been assured by Ford that they’re looking at a range of opportunities that can be brought to Bridgend. What I wish to see now is greater detail about what those opportunities are—what it is that Ford is actually looking at specifically and how they’re going about attracting the investment to the Bridgend plant. And, for that reason, I intend meeting with the vice-president again and also with union leaders, because it’s my firm belief that we do our best when we work together as a team. I think Ford have proven in Bridgend that when you have a proactive Government and when you have a positive, proactive unionised workforce, you can produce the best goods imaginable. We need to make sure that that relationship between the workforce and the company and Welsh Government remains strong. But, crucially, we have to ensure that Ford identify the new products and that’s the reason why I will be placing more pressure on them to bring forward detail about what opportunities they are talking about actually materialising.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Huw Irranca-Davies.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Diolch, Lywydd, and can I thank you for granting this urgent question today? It is a matter that’s caused a lot of concern, but can I say the concerns are not new only today, based on these press reports; they’ve been ongoing for some time? I thank the Cabinet Secretary for, first and foremost, recognising the skills, the loyalty and the sacrifices that the workforce have made already in terms of making this plant productive. But, as we can see from the reports over the weekend, there may be an even bigger task ahead. I think it’s incumbent on all of us as regional Assembly Members, and as a constituency Member with hundreds of the workforce employed within my constituency and their families depending on them, that we make sure that there is a long-term future. And this idea of actually bringing together the workforce and the unions, who are representing their members there on the ground, on the shop floor and on the production floor, with management so that we can talk very hard-nosed about what we need to do to make this the go-to plant of Ford in Europe and worldwide—so that the productivity that they hit will be the one that means that Ford’s management globally will say, ‘The next investment will come to Ford Bridgend.’

We know that this is not imminent. We know we have breathing space until 2020-21. The Jaguar engine is coming to the end of its life. We have some investment but not the investment that we wanted on the Dragon engine, but that is good as well. It is surely now that all of us—Welsh Government, ourselves as Assembly Members, the workforce, the unions and the management—need to be sitting down around the table and saying, ‘How do we make this the plant that will bring that investment in?’ So, I have three specific questions. One is: what can the Welsh Government do, beyond what’s been laid out already, to actually facilitate those productive, constructive talks—hard-nosed talks they will be—so that all players around the table agree on a plan to go forward. Does he agree that we need to be doing that now? Because if the investment decisions that we need to secure the future of this plant will be put into place in 2020 and 2021, they need to be taken in the months and the year ahead.

Thirdly, what do we know now—these months later—about the UK Government guarantees that were given to another plant within the UK, quite rightly, about the insecurities, post Brexit? What do we know about that? And do we know that those same guarantees are being extended to the workers in Ford Bridgend as well, because they damn well should be—pardon my French, Presiding Officer. They really should be given those same guarantees. So, please, we know the investment that’s come over many years from the Welsh Government into this plant, we know the efforts that the workforce has put in, but it seems we have a mountain to climb in very short order. We should all be working together to make sure that we climb this mountain and we have a productive future for this plant and for the workers—there are hundreds of them within my constituency.

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Can I thank the Member for his question and I recognise the deep concern that he has for not just his own constituents, but the constituents living in neighbouring parts of south Wales? I also know his commitment to the Ford Bridgend plant and the workforce there is unwavering.

Now, in terms of new technology, there is dynamic change taking place within the automotive sector at the moment and the Member identifies the fact that the Jaguar AJ engine will be ceasing production later this decade. Jaguar are not the only manufacturer looking to produce new engines and new types of engines. For that reason, it’s essential that Ford work with other motor manufacturers across Europe and around the world to identify opportunities to develop new engines together, and to bring them to Bridgend. Bridgend has had a history of being the most competitive and productive plant in Europe. We wish to see that status reinstated and I was told by the vice president of Ford today that the workforce—the plant—is on the right journey towards becoming the most competitive again and the most productive again in Europe. That enabled me to argue strongly for the case that further investment is therefore surely—surely—something that should be welcomed and should be driven to the Bridgend plant, because, as new forms of engines are required, Ford in Bridgend have a proven track record of delivering the highest quality in a timely fashion.

The Member is absolutely right that these are challenging times—there’s no doubt about it—but we do have a First Minister who has a proven track record of securing jobs that are at risk. We only need to look at the Tata crisis as an example of how he has been able to deliver on his promise of securing quality jobs for people here in Wales. Indeed, as I’ve already said, he’s done it again this week with GE. My intention is to meet with Len McCluskey later this afternoon. I’ve already spoken with Andy Richards, the general secretary of Unite Wales. I’ve also spoken with local Assembly Members today. I’ve spoken with the First Minister and with Ford’s vice president this morning. It’s my intention to bring together all partners to reinstate a team Ford ethic at Bridgend, one that will lead to further investment and new products being brought to what is an outstanding plant.

Bethan Sayed (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

Well, Cabinet Secretary, you may have talked to two Assembly Members, but I don’t think you’ve talked to all Assembly Members who represent the area and I think, with respect to democracy here in Wales, it would be good if you could include all Assembly Members who represent the Bridgend region as part of any future discussions.

Look, you may say that Ford have investment in the area and you may have warm words to say about Ford, but I have the scars from the debates around Ford closing their plant in Swansea and the ensuing Visteon pensions campaign with Ford. So, it may be nice for you to trust them, but their words may not be reflected in the actions that they take post 2021. So, I want to be assured by you, because I didn’t hear you answer Adam Price: when did you find out about these reports in the press today? Yes, they may be leaked reports, but we need to understand what discussions you had with the company to know what the level of severity was up to this point because, of course, those living in the area will be very concerned. Also, this is an anchor company, so I want to try and understand what the other companies working around Ford are feeling today—not only Ford workers, but those smaller companies. You say quite a lot about looking for new products, but what are some of those new products? Are you concerned that, with regard to Tata buying Jaguar Land Rover in 2008, lots of investment has gone to the west midlands plant, and that may be to the detriment of the production in Ford in Bridgend? So, have you looked to analyse the effect of those investments in another part of the UK and how that impacts on us?

We talked about Tata only a few weeks ago. It would be good if we could have that industrial strategy from you as a Government so that we can put all of these tools together in one particular document and we can understand how we as Assembly Members across the Chamber can input into this in a positive way, because we have no interest in trying to make capital out of this. We have to secure those jobs in south Wales, because if Ford do not feel the pressure then, believe me, they may move those jobs elsewhere. Because they’re a multinational corporation and they are not committed to Wales as, potentially, some other Members in this Chamber may think.

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

I should begin by saying to the Member that other Members whom I spoke with this morning actually proactively contacted me, and that’s why I was able to share with them details of conversations that I’ve had with the key decision maker. The Member is welcome to contact me at any time if she feels strongly enough about issues in her region.

I should also say that right now is a time to build trust, not to undermine it or to destroy it, and I believe that it is through reinstating a team approach at Ford in Bridgend that we will see the plant through to a more viable future. There is no doubt that there is great anxiety at the plant, and I have stated today to Ford’s vice president my desire to seek details of the new products that are being looked at. I want to know exactly what it is that Ford in Bridgend can expect and should expect to be manufacturing in the next decade. These products, I understand, could concern electric and hybrid engines, but we need to know exactly what it is that Ford’s Bridgend plant will focus on producing in years to come.

In terms of the actual details that have been revealed today, they are, as I said to Adam Price, the worst-case scenario for what would happen—what would happen—hypothetically, if no new products were to be secured for the Bridgend plant. But our intention is to secure new product, is to work as part of a team with Ford, with the workforce, with the unions, and that’s the reason that I’m bringing them all together. Everybody has a shared interest in this—the unions, the workforce and Government—to make sure that Ford survives and that Ford in Bridgend thrives well into the future.

We will work together, we will develop trust across partners, and we will work with the company, and, if that means playing tough with Ford Europe, we will do so.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

And, finally, Suzy Davies.

Suzy Davies (Conservative, South Wales West)

Diolch yn fawr, Lywydd. Thank you for your replies to date, Cabinet Secretary but I’d like to try another couple past you again, as we haven’t had answers to these. [Interruption.] When did you hear first about this worst-case scenario? The MP for Bridgend confesses that she was completely blindsided by it, so I’m wondering whether you were.

Can you give me an answer, a straight answer, to the question: has the First Minister attempted to change his schedule in America to meet somebody from Ford? It’s a straightforward question. That’s a ‘yes’ or a ‘no’.

And another couple of questions: last September, Ford did say that the cut in Dragon production would not affect the workforce, and like all of us, you included, Cabinet Secretary, and Assembly Members—and, of course, Len McCluskey himself said in his recent visit that he was asking the company to demonstrate that they were ‘working hard for product replacement’. Those were his words, and I think we share those.

Today’s worst-case scenario report suggests that perhaps Ford has either failed, which means that there’s a bit of a black future facing us, or that they haven’t worked that hard yet. I heard your answer to Caroline Jones earlier on, but I wonder which of those two scenarios you think is probably the more accurate. I think it’s worrying that the company has suggested that work practices at the plant aren’t as efficient or effective as in other UK plants. That’s the first time that we’ve heard that, or at least first that I’ve heard that. Mr McCluskey said that he would ‘work hard’ with the company—I’m quoting him again—so do you agree that the kind of work that Huw Irranca-Davies was talking about earlier on should be undertaken as swiftly as possible so that Ford can never find themselves in a position where they can point to the workforce as an excuse for threatening that plant? I think my other questions have been answered, so, if you can tackle those four questions, I’d be delighted.

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Yes. Can I thank the Member for her questions? First of all, the Member asked whether the First Minister will be flying to Detroit to meet with Ford. As I’ve already said, I have spoken with the person who will be making the decision. More importantly, we know what I’ve been doing, we know our position: where has the Prime Minister been on this? We need a similar assurance—[Interruption.] We need a similar assurance for Ford as was given to Nissan. The First Minister has proven that he is able to stand up for Welsh industry: where is the Prime Minister? As I’ve said, I will continue to engage with the person that will make the decisions about the Bridgend plant. That person is the vice-president of Europe, that person is the person I spoke with this morning and will continue a dialogue with, and the mischief making from the Members opposite will not detract me from speaking with key decision makers in securing the future of Ford at Bridgend. Regardless of what mischief they wish to make, we prefer actions not words on this side—so, actually averting a crisis rather than promoting the idea of one.

In terms of Ford itself—[Interruption.] In terms of Ford itself, the communications between—[Interruption.] The Members protest too much.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The Cabinet Secretary is continuing—is finishing—his answer.

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

I do think there is a need—[Interruption.] I do believe there is a need for Ford to better communicate to its employees, to its members, the long-term objectives for the plant. That is the reason that I’ve spoken both with the unions and with the vice-president; it’s the reason why I will be bringing them together. Because what was presented today was a worst-case scenario based on a hypothetical situation. The fact of the matter is, for the automotive sector, you have to look long term at what products are coming down the line, but there is a worst-case scenario for any manufacturer if you don’t secure new products. The key question for us, and what we are focused on, is actually securing those new products—not just talking about what opportunities there are, but holding Ford to account for their promise that they’re looking at new opportunities. They may well be looking at new opportunities; we wish to know what exactly they are and when we can expect them to be secured.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Diolch i’r Ysgrifennydd Cabinet.

2. 1. Questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Economy and Infrastructure

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The next item on our agenda is questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Economy and Infrastructure. The first question is from Dai Lloyd.

David Lloyd (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

1. Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on his plans for developing bus services? OAQ(5)0124(EI)

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Yes. I refer the Member to the oral statement I delivered yesterday and, again, thank the Member for his warm welcome of it.

David Lloyd (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

Thank you very much for that response. Clearly, we received the statement after I’d tabled the question; it’s the nature of things. But, in your written statement back in the autumn, you’d said that you were going to hold discussions with Newport and Cardiff councils on the benefits of running local bus companies through the public sector. Can I ask you—? [Interruption.]

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Right. You can carry on now.

David Lloyd (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

Should I carry on or start again?

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Yes, if you could repeat what you said.

David Lloyd (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

Ailadrodd? Ie. Datganiad ysgrifenedig yn ôl yn yr hydref—roeddech chi’n sôn am waith efo cynghorau Caerdydd a Chasnewydd ynglŷn â manteision rhedeg cwmnïau bysus lleol drwy’r sector gyhoeddus. Byddwch chi’n cofio hynny. A allaf i ofyn beth ydy ffrwyth y trafodaethau yna, ac a ydych chi wedi dechrau trafod gydag awdurdodau eraill, megis Abertawe, er enghraifft, y posibilrwydd o greu system debyg i’r rheini sydd yn digwydd yng Nghaerdydd a Chasnewydd?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Again, I’d like to thank the Member for his keen interest in this subject area. I spoke with both Newport and Cardiff to gather best practice from both, with a view of sharing that with Swansea and with other local authorities. A number of work streams were created as a consequence of the bus summit in Wrexham, one of which looks at how we can create a more sustainable network and ensure that the right form of support is driven into local authorities, and, indeed, to operators, so that they could become more secure for the future. We’re also looking at the franchising potential and also the possibility of more municipal services being created across Wales. This is an area of work that I feel particularly excited about and I think we have a golden opportunity to create a far better bus network for Wales.

Russell George (Conservative, Montgomeryshire)

Cabinet Secretary, there is a degree of apprehension, I think, within parts of the bus industry at the potential for the introduction of top-down regulation following the devolution of various pieces of legislation to Wales. Will you give a general overview of how you see the future regulation of the bus industry and also give an assurance that any new regulation will be only introduced after consultation with and in partnership with operators, the industry representatives and, indeed, local authorities?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Can I thank Russell George for his questions and say that work with the industry, with passenger groups and, indeed, with local authorities will continue? There is clearly apprehension about the prospect of new regulation and stronger regulation being introduced, but we will be revealing our intentions and our overall vision in the document that is going out to public consultation on March 8. It’s our view that change is required in order to better integrate bus and rail services and to improve accessibility and punctuality of services. With those changes there will be challenge, but at the end of the day, we have to consider the passengers first and foremost and I have confidence in the best of operators doing that.

Gareth Bennett (UKIP, South Wales Central)

Thanks, Minister, for your statement yesterday on improving the bus services. I was interested in your plans to improve the bus stop experience, particularly by providing more electronic information. This could be variable due to geographical factors. For instance, in the south Wales Valleys, the stops tend to be relatively smaller with a lack of shelters, plus there is also the issue of the variability of broadband. So, I wondered what your plans were to improve the bus stop experience in the Valleys.

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Can I thank the Member for his question? This is a very important point, because what bus users have regularly told us is that the lack of decent modern facilities, bus stops in particular, is a deterrent to them actually taking public transport. I mentioned a moment ago that a number of work streams were created as a consequence of the bus summit, and another one of those work streams actually focuses specifically on immediate improvements that can be brought to bus stations, in particular the provision of live transport information.

We do not believe, given the roll-out of Superfast Cymru and the availability of other forms of digital technology, that live information could not be provided at all bus stops, regardless of how rural they are. There are various solutions that can be deployed. We are confident that they can be. One of the challenges that we have, though, is that—as I outlined yesterday in the statement—we have been seeking to establish voluntary quality partnerships between local authorities and bus operators for some time. One of the difficulties that we’ve faced is in actually getting the commitment from the local authorities and the operators to invest in their respective infrastructure. For that reason, we’ve got the work stream looking at what support is required to get the investment that is needed into bus stops right across Wales.

Paul Davies (Conservative, Preseli Pembrokeshire)

2. Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on what the Welsh Government is doing to promote Pembrokeshire as a tourism destination? OAQ(5)0128(EI)

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Yes. Pembrokeshire is a vital part of Wales’s overall tourism offering. Our marketing activities feature tourism attractions and products in Pembrokeshire, alongside all the other parts of Wales.

Paul Davies (Conservative, Preseli Pembrokeshire)

Cabinet Secretary, as you’re no doubt aware, the city of St David’s, the smallest city in Britain, is developing a bid for the UK city of culture in 2021, which, if successful, would significantly promote Pembrokeshire as a tourism destination. Given that this year is the Year of Legends, which obviously is aimed at enriching and promoting culture in Wales, what support can the Welsh Government offer to the city of St David’s to help it strengthen its bid for the UK city of culture?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Can I thank Paul Davies for his question and tell him that Pembrokeshire is actually the destination of my regular summer holidays? I believe it’s one of the prettiest and one of the most attractive parts not just of Wales but of Europe. The Pembrokeshire destination partnership, I’m pleased to say, has been able to secure significant resource this year as part of a south-west Wales Year of Legends campaign that brings together various local authorities to celebrate the legends across the region.

I also believe that next year provides a golden opportunity to Pembrokeshire, the Year of the Sea. I can envisage a number of spectacular events and new products being funded by the Government through the tourism investment support scheme and through other financial measures.

I’m very aware that St David’s is looking at bidding for city of culture status. This would be a magnificent coup if they could secure it. I am also aware that Swansea is investigating a possible bid as well. I will be meeting with the respective organisers in the coming weeks. Although I cannot say at this moment that I am able to prefer one bid over another, I can say that if there is a bid that is taken forward by one and not the other, it would have the support of the Welsh Government.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Questions now from the party spokespeople. The Welsh Conservatives spokesperson, Suzy Davies.

Suzy Davies (Conservative, South Wales West)

Diolch yn fawr, Lywydd. Neatly dealt with there, I have to say, Cabinet Secretary. I wonder whether you could give us an indication about when we might expect a full response to the report on Historic Wales. I’m hoping you can do that today, just to give us an idea.

Until then, I’m also mindful of the fact that your predecessors, despite my coaxing on a number of occasions to think otherwise, also always maintained that Cadw was better placed within Government. You clearly have other ideas, which I’m pleased to see, but I wouldn’t believe that you haven’t proceeded to commission the Historic Wales report without giving at least some early consideration to what extracting Cadw from Government might look like. What details can you give you of the preparatory scoping that you’ve done about taking Cadw out of Government? How have you overcome the arguments of your predecessors? Do you have any sort of indicative figures—I appreciate that this is difficult—so that we can get a general sense of costings, notwithstanding, of course, that you’ve yet to make a final decision? Thank you.

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Can I thank Suzy Davies for her questions? I’ve received the steering group’s report on Historic Wales. It is an excellent report. I’m currently considering it and I’ll respond formally in the coming weeks. I am also awaiting formal responses from the respective organisations and institutions that the paper concerns.

With regard specifically to Cadw, I will give that recommendation particular attention. Cadw has performed exceptionally well in the past 12 months whilst being in Government, and I want to ensure that that success continues. One of the reasons that Cadw has experienced such a remarkable increase in the number of visitors and members, and, indeed, in the amount of income generated, is because of the personnel within the organisation having the freedom and flexibility to operate as commercially as they wish. I wish to make sure that, whether Cadw stays in Government or goes out of Government, it has the right people—the right, if you like, imagineers—who are leading the organisation in order to draw in more visitors.

Suzy Davies (Conservative, South Wales West)

Thank you very much for that answer. I just want to move on now to something else that we’re waiting on a little bit, which is the small museum review, which reported in August 2015. It was received very well by the sector, and, despite the six-month delay in the Government responding to the recommendations, they’re eager to see progress.

However, I’ve been told that some of the recommendations are not being delivered upon, at least not at pace. I’d be grateful if you could give us some indication of how your department monitors and scrutinises, actually, your partners, which would include local authorities, to ensure that those good ideas do translate into good practice.

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

I believe that Members should have received an update on the expert panel review, the recommendations and how we are taking this work forward just prior to Christmas. We accepted almost all of the recommendations. The one recommendation that I had reservations about was the creation of a new museums council that potentially could compete with or could tread on the toes of existing organisations. So, it’s my view that before setting up any new organisations or groups, we should first examine whether those that currently exist actually exist to the best of their ability. If not, then are there changes that are required to those organisations?

There are other recommendations that we had actually enacted before the review had emerged. One, for example, was my desire to see local museums being able to access the sort of funding that local libraries were able to access for the purpose of transforming them into lifelong community hubs. I changed the criteria on that fund and increased the amount of money available so that local museums could benefit from it.

The expert panel report identified this as a transformation fund, and it truly is a transformation fund, but I didn’t wish to wait until the report was responded to and then actioned on before making sure that that valuable resource that could keep local museums alive was made available and, indeed, drawn down. I think the figures are very promising at the moment—there is great interest by local museums. Insofar as the other recommendations are concerned, we are implementing them, but I must stress again that that one recommendation that I have reservations about is based on my belief that we currently have the right institutions, organisations and groups that can represent the museum sector.

Suzy Davies (Conservative, South Wales West)

Thank you very much for that answer. I’ll certainly feed it back to the sector, if they haven’t already picked it up from this. I just want to move on to something a bit different now, and it’s the fact that Wales is a country of small businesses, many of which will be partnerships rather than companies, and so operating on income tax rather than corporation tax rules. I’m just wondering what kind of discussions you might have had with the finance Secretary about whether—‘whether’ is a genuine question as well—and how income tax-varying powers might be used to encourage the private sector—the kind of private sector we have—to invest in arts and heritage.

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

I’d be very interested to examine any forms of philanthropy or tax breaks that could enable giving to the cultural and sports sector. I think it’s important that we do look at broadening the availability of resource, and encourage more people—not just individuals, but businesses as well as charitable organisations—to ensure that the culture sector is thriving. I will gladly look at any possible scheme that would see more resource diverted into libraries, museums and arts centres. I think the Members makes a very good point, and I will raise with it the finance Minister.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Adam Price.

Adam Price (Plaid Cymru, Carmarthen East and Dinefwr)

I’d like to return, if I may, to the issue of inward investment and the role that it should play in our wider economic strategy. Assembly Members will be interested to know that in the last few minutes the First Minister has told the BBC that a trip to Detroit would be pointless, and given the gravity of the situation many observers would be forced to conclude that he’s a pretty pointless First Minister.

I would like to ask the Cabinet Secretary, as he prepares to unveil his new economic strategy, how important he thinks inward investment should be to the Welsh economy going forward, given the fact that there are fewer large-scale inward investment projects than in the past, and we’re not successful at winning them. We didn’t win Jaguar Land Rover, where the engines from Bridgend will be now made. Six years ago, we didn’t win Boeing. There was a headline in the ‘Western Mail’ that celebrated Wales coming second. It sounded like some of the post-match interviews we’ve heard recently. Can the Cabinet Secretary confirm whether or not the Welsh Government offered, as I’ve heard, up to £50 million to Boeing to come to Wales? And can he also confirm that one of the reasons that Boeing decided not to was because of their concerns about the adequacy and the quality of the local skills base?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

I think the Member lets himself down with such cheap pot shots at the First Minister that do nothing to offer security to those workers. But, actually, what the First Minister has said in the past few minutes confirms that I have been speaking to the right person—the person that will make the decision about Ford. In terms of FDI projects, there’s been a 77 per cent increase in the number of projects and an 84 per cent increase in the number of jobs from companies that are headquartered elsewhere in the UK coming to Wales. We do have a very proud record of attracting investment to Wales, as shown by Aston Martin. As we leave the European Union, it will become more important that we work with businesses and investors in England, and that’s why I believe that exports—not just abroad, but also exports across the border to England, Scotland and Ireland—will become essential. I do think that we have to have the right balance between attracting inward investment and ensuring that we have more Welsh-based businesses and indigenous companies exporting outside of Wales. For that reason, we’ve been very clear that as we exit the European Union, we must have tariff-free and unfettered access to the single market. I am pleased—it has taken some time—but I am pleased that the UK Government is now talking of a free and frictionless relationship. I think this recognises that the Welsh Government has been right throughout to call for unfettered access that doesn’t have any tariff or technical barriers that prevent companies in Wales from exporting. But I do think, as a whole, exports will become more important to Wales’s economic growth and prosperity.

Adam Price (Plaid Cymru, Carmarthen East and Dinefwr)

As a nation, of course, we will always have limited resources—indeed, scarcity, of course, is one of the fundamental principles within economics—so we need to be absolutely clear that we’re investing those scarce resources in the right areas, where they’re going to have the greatest impact. Can I invite the Cabinet Secretary, as he devises and refines his economic strategy, to look at the research project conducted by a team at Cardiff Metropolitan University, including Professors Brian Morgan, Gerry Holtham and Rob Huggins, who have looked across the world at the different variables that are associated with economic success? There were some surprising results—or maybe not so surprising—which actually showed that one of the most important variables is the level of expenditure on education. Indeed, as Professor Holtham has said in the last few weeks, rather than actually raiding the education budget, as we’ve done in recent years to actually inflate our conventional economic development budget, maybe we should be doing it in the opposite direction, and responding, for example, to the call from the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development in its report, published yesterday, for sustained investment in education—schools, further education and universities—because that is one of the most reliable determinants of future economic success.

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

I think the Member is right, and I’d also add that there is great importance that’s attached to early years education as well, and I think it’s absolutely essential that children get the best possible start in life, and for that reason I think it’s also right that we have a very ambitious childcare pledge and that we continue to invest in early education. What we’ve been able to ascertain from all of the available data is that in terms of the gross value added gap between Wales and the rest of the UK, the vast majority of that gap can be determined by productivity deficits, and the difference in productivity, in turn, is largely owing to factors such as skills gaps. It’s essential, therefore, that we invest in the right area of skills training to make sure that every individual looking to get into the workplace is equipped with the right type of skills. I think it’s also essential that we don’t just educate and skill people generally, but that we actually equip people with those skills that are aligned with their intrinsic interests and with their intrinsic abilities, so that they can secure a long career in the workplace of their choice.

Adam Price (Plaid Cymru, Carmarthen East and Dinefwr)

The other variable identified as part of this study of global economic competitiveness is the level of business innovation—research and development. Over a year ago, his predecessor commissioned a second-stage report on creating a dedicated national innovation body for Wales, to drive up our level of R&D, both in the private sector and in higher education. Can he report on some progress on the establishment of that body, and can he also respond to some information that I’ve had that suggests that the full-time director of innovation, which was there leading the Welsh Government’s efforts in this area, and former director of the Confederation of British Industry, has been moved out of that post into a post as director of sport, and we don’t, any more, have a full-time director of innovation, which surely has to be concerning, given its importance to our economic strategy? And finally, an innovation that we are looking forward to in the Heads of the Valleys: the Circuit of Wales programme—can he confirm that it is his intention, provided all the information is provided in time to him, to make an announcement before purdah? Surely the people of Blaenau Gwent deserve to know that before the May elections.

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

In terms of innovation, Innovation Point and other organisations or other initiatives have been able to drive the amount of innovation and enterprise in Wales to new highs. That said, we do need to catch up with many parts of the UK: of that, there is no doubt. But between 1995 and 2015, the average annual increase in real terms, by businesses investing in enterprise research and development, was 5 per cent per year, in contrast to the UK average of just 2 per cent. So, the growth has been greater in Wales, but we still need to see further investment from business, and, indeed, from Government, but it’s absolutely essential that we recognise the challenge that exiting the European Union could have in this regard. It’s also the reason why I’ve been quite clear that we should expect in Wales a considerable proportion of the £2 billion that the Secretary of State for business and enterprise has announced for research and development across the UK.

In terms of the head of innovation within Welsh Government, as far as I’m aware, one of the most impressive academics in this area takes responsibility for innovation and I have every confidence in that official in leading a dedicated and effective team that will drive further resource into research and development, not just in the private sector but across the academic field, and also focus minds, focus attention within Government on what works best to drive enterprise within the Welsh economy.

In terms of the Circuit of Wales, I said back in January that I believed that the people of Ebbw Vale deserved a decision on this project as soon as possible. That’s why I tasked the developers with bringing forward a firm and formal proposal within the time that I allocated them. They brought that back. I then subsequently said that we would begin a process of due diligence, which would last between four and six weeks from the point of receiving the information. It’s still my hope that it will take just four to six weeks once we have received all of the information, and if a decision can be made within the time that leads us to purdah, then surely a decision before that time should be made. But this is very much at the moment in the hands of the developers. We do need the information in order to begin the process of due diligence so that a decision can be made before purdah if it’s going to be made then.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

UKIP spokesperson, David Rowlands.

David Rowlands (UKIP, South Wales East)

Diolch, Lywydd. Cabinet Secretary, this morning the Economy and Infrastructure Committee considered the strategy of the Welsh Government’s proposal to deliver the borders franchise and the metro project. We note that the Welsh Government has adopted the integrated contract approach, meaning, of course, that the rail franchisee—whoever that might be—and the chosen infrastructure company will have to work very closely together. Could the Cabinet Secretary indicate if he is aware of any discussions between those bidding for the franchise and those engaged in the tender process for the infrastructure to establish some compatibility?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

We’re encouraging all of the bidders to engage as widely as possible with current stakeholders and potential stakeholders in the future to ensure that investment in the new franchise and in the metro is maximised and that that investment is channelled in the right way to make sure that services are as efficient and as modern as possible.

David Rowlands (UKIP, South Wales East)

Does the Cabinet Secretary not agree with me that it is vital that the two parties have an effective working relationship if the whole project is to be delivered on time and on budget?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Yes, I would agree with the Member. That is absolutely essential. We wish to see a strong relationship developed between those who are responsible for the tracks and those who are responsible for the vehicles that run along them. I think what the Secretary of State for Transport recently announced about bringing together in some form Network Rail and rail operators is very interesting. Of course, what we’re proposing in Wales, to some extent, is similar, but instead of privatising the entire system, we will actually be bringing it closer to public ownership.

Julie Morgan (Labour, Cardiff North)

3. What discussions has the Cabinet Secretary had about the relocation of DWP jobs throughout Wales? OAQ(5)0136(EI)

Julie James (Labour, Swansea West)

I have written to the UK Government expressing concern at the lack of prior consultation from the UK Government regarding the Department for Work and Pensions’s estate rationalisation, and confirming our commitment to work with the UK Government to seek alternative offices.

Julie Morgan (Labour, Cardiff North)

I thank the Minister for that response. I am extremely concerned about the plans for 1,000 DWP jobs leaving different parts of Wales and being concentrated in or near to Cardiff North. Could the Minister tell the Chamber what the plans are for the DWP jobs that are currently based in Cardiff North and what she can do to bring home to the Ministers in Westminster the folly of concentrating everything in or near Cardiff and moving jobs from areas where every job counts?

Julie James (Labour, Swansea West)

Well, the Department for Work and Pensions, of course, is stating constantly that there should be no job losses for staff resulting from the future review of the estate, and they are currently recruiting more work coaches. There is a consultation process ongoing at the offices and we know that that consultation also looks at options for relocation.

However, we are very concerned at what the proposals might bring. A lot of the redeployment opportunities in Cardiff North or Pembroke Dock, for example, seem to be illogical and impractical. They threaten to leave staff and communities much worse off and we are urging the UK Government to think again and to work with us to make sure that staff are relocated, if necessary, to the best places to continue the serve the communities that they live and work within.

Simon Thomas (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

I’m particularly concerned, of course, in my region at the proposal in Llanelli, which will take out a significant number of workers from the town centre who really need support. But there are wider questions around the way that this process has been undertaken by the UK Government, and I’d like to raise two issues with the Government that I think impact on devolved aspects as well. I was pleased to meet with Public and Commercial Services Union representatives today and I think other Assembly Members have also. They raised with me these two important things: one is that no equality assessment has been done of the impact on the workforce of these moves. For example, a lot of the workers in Llanelli are female, are older, have caring responsibilities and certainly can’t go to Pembroke Dock and would find it difficult to travel by public transport even to Swansea or Cardiff. I think that needs to be taken into account, and I’d like the Welsh Government to urge the UK Government to take a proper equalities assessment, including the workforce and the Welsh language.

The second thing, which the Minister has just mentioned, is co-location. The question is that co-location may take place with devolved public authorities in Wales—are they suitable co-location places? In particular, I’m thinking of the kind of clientele who needs a safe and secure place to be dealt with in a confidential manner.

Julie James (Labour, Swansea West)

The Member makes two very good points. I’m more than happy to write again on the equality point. I would just like to reiterate that it isn’t devolved to us, obviously; we have sought to make sure that the DWP is aware that we’re happy to work with them on co-location—correct co-location—with many of the Welsh Government services as well as other non-devolved services. I’m happy to do that publicly again; I’ve already written to that effect.

We stand ready, of course, if people do find themselves made redundant, to assist with our ReAct programmes and all of the other programmes, as we always do, to help affected staff. But I share the Member’s concern and the concern of Julie Morgan that these proposals are driven by estate management and not by community-focused opportunities. The UK Government has a wider duty to the people of Wales than just to manage its estate in a property-efficient way, and to take into account the wider implications of its investment decisions in its estate on the communities of Wales. We have urged them to do that and I’m very happy to do so again.

Lee Waters (Labour, Llanelli)

Minister, the MP for Llanelli, Nia Griffith, and I recently held a packed public meeting in Llanelli with the affected workers—an overwhelming majority of which were women—where there was strong support for the idea of co-locating with other public services in the town. To be fair to Carmarthenshire County Council, they’ve done everything they can to make options available to discuss with the DWP. Workers themselves emphasise that they estimate that they spend at least £0.5 million a year in the town centre in the local economy, which would be a devastating blow were that to be lost.

This week, Nia Griffith had a letter from Damian Hinds, the Minister for employment in the UK Government, who said that they have more estate capacity than is needed, and they’re therefore not in a position to discuss renting space from Carmarthenshire County Council. At the same time, he said that this was still subject to consultation, but it does seem that the UK Government have made up their minds. Would the Minister urge the First Minister to get in touch with the Prime Minister about this, because it is she who said that, post Brexit, the Government is committed to spreading wealth across the UK and this move would fly in the face of that?

Julie James (Labour, Swansea West)

Yes, I’m very happy to approach the FM to do that. I’m happy to write again myself as well to make those points again. I do think they’re very important points. As Members will know in this Chamber, we are developing our employability plan. Many of the functions of an employability plan coincide with the functions of the DWP, and we have been talking to them about co-location of services. It need not necessarily involve a rental situation; there are other ways of doing this.

We are very anxious that those are constructive conversations that are based on the need for services in a particular area and not on the need for a particular estate strategy. I think it’s very short-sighted indeed to plan services very badly needed in communities around an estates policy, and not around a community and public service focus. And I’m very happy to make those points again, and I will do so in due course.

Mark Reckless (UKIP, South Wales East)

4. Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on how he will measure success in reducing poverty? OAQ(5)0131(EI)

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

We monitor progress across a range of indicators, including the relative income measure of poverty, and indicators for employment, for education, skills, and also for health. These reflect the cross-cutting nature of our approach to prosperity for all.

Mark Reckless (UKIP, South Wales East)

In principle, I support the Cabinet Secretary leading in this area, and using economic development and improving infrastructure to reduce poverty. However, the shift in policy and the abolition of Communities First has caused concern on his own benches. Is he sure the new approach will support the poorest in our society?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Yes, I am. It’s proven that the best way to prevent people from falling into poverty, and the best way to assist people in getting out of poverty, is through securing them quality, sustainable work. And, for that reason, I think it is important that I lead on the prosperity for all agenda. That said, there are a number of factors that can affect individuals who are not in work, or who have experienced significant periods of their life out of work. And, for that reason, I’m working with Cabinet colleagues in health, in communities, in finance, in education, to ensure that we address those challenges together, and that, as part of four cross-cutting strategies that we are developing, the Government remains focused on ensuring that we leave nobody behind in our attempt to create maximum employment.

Vikki Howells (Labour, Cynon Valley)

Cabinet Secretary, for my question today I’d like to ask you about how you will assess the role of the foundational economy in reducing poverty. For example, do you agree that jobs created in the foundational sector could mark one measure of success in reducing poverty? In addition, will you join with me in congratulating Welsh Hills Bakery, in my constituency, for their success in winning the overseas trade award in the Welsh Business Awards?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

I’d very much like to congratulate the company in my colleague’s constituency. Welsh Hills Bakery is a remarkable success story. I believe I visited the company back in the autumn of last year, for their sixtieth anniversary celebrations.

And I do believe that the foundation economy will play an increasingly important role in offering all individuals accessibility to the workplace, and indeed opportunities to acquire skills that will enable them to progress through to better careers that are well paid. The foundation economy, of course, can benefit all communities, right across Wales, and for that reason I’m looking very closely at it as part of the wider, broader, prosperous and secure strategy for Wales.

Mohammad Asghar (Conservative, South Wales East)

Cabinet Secretary, helping people into employment is a key measure of success in reducing poverty. I very much welcome, therefore, the Welsh Government u-turn on scrapping the youth bus discount scheme. Will the Cabinet Secretary confirm that any new scheme has the necessary support to ensure that it is a long-term success, so that our young people, particularly from our deprived communities in south-east Wales, can access training, job opportunities or further education? Thank you.

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Can I thank the Member for his question, and say that, in spite of the longest period of severe austerity that our country has faced—and which the Member and his party have been cheerleaders of—we have actually reduced the poverty rate in Wales by 2 per cent since 1998-99? In terms of the mytravelpass scheme, I was pleased to be able to extend that whilst we consult on what I intend to be a broader and better scheme for young people.

I think we have to do all we can to remove the barriers that exist, preventing people from accessing work and training opportunities. Some of those barriers include the acquisition or the lack of availability of skills training, the lack of affordable and accessible childcare, and the lack of reliable and affordable public transport. In terms of how we are dealing with these barriers, the mytravelpass is very important for young people, and, through implementing a broader and better scheme, I hope to create a better offer. In terms of childcare, we are developing the most generous childcare offer anywhere in the United Kingdom. And in terms of giving people better opportunities to acquire the skills that they need to get a life in work, we are rolling out, not just an employability plan, but a very ambitious all-age apprenticeship scheme that will provide at least 100,000 opportunities to the people of Wales.

Suzy Davies (Conservative, South Wales West)

5. Will the Cabinet Secretary provide an update on action taken by the Welsh Government to increase economic productivity in the Swansea Bay City Region? OAQ(5)0129(EI)

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

We are working with local partners to support business growth, to improve infrastructure, and to create a more attractive economic environment across the region.

Suzy Davies (Conservative, South Wales West)

Thank you very much for that answer, and obviously, locally, we appreciate your support for the Swansea bay city region deal. While attracting large employers to a region is important for jobs and the economy, 99 per cent of our businesses are small and medium-sized enterprises, and 75 per cent are actually microbusinesses, as you already know, which means that small businesses do play a very important part locally, particularly in the supply chain. The UK Government challenge to the current board identified the need for greater private sector involvement in the city deal bid, and I’m wondering are you and the Cabinet Secretary for local government willing to work with partners to ensure that there’s an appropriate balance of small business representation on the project’s next iteration of the board, so that those 95 per cent of our businesses can be adequately represented as well. Thank you.

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Yes, I would agree with the Member; we are now entering a critical period for the Swansea city deal, and over the past few months, I know that a considerable amount of work has gone into preparing for the challenge process, and that there has been a concerted effort to attract the views of the private sector. But I do believe that the private sector must be fully part of city deal considerations, and that all of the priority projects must benefit not just employers large, but also those small and microbusinesses that the Member talks of, and which constitute something in the region of 98 to 99 per cent of all employers in Wales, but especially in my colleague’s region.

I’m also keen to ensure that aside from, and actually along with, the city region approach, we go on assisting small and medium-sized and microbusinesses through the Business Wales programme. And, of course, the latest phase of the Business Wales programme was launched in January, and it tasks Business Wales with assisting tens of thousands of small and micro-sized companies, including those in the city region area.

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

In an economy event in my constituency, which I held before Christmas, and which was addressed by the Minister for Skills and Science, one of the issues identified to improve productivity was the question of skills acquisition, and importantly skills progression through the employment journey. So, they will have been pleased to hear the emphasis on that in the new apprenticeship plan. But, more broadly than that, does he agree with me that we need to find ways of turning technology, which can often be a threat to some of the jobs in our region, into an asset, and that we should aim to see widely available online skills tools, which are immersive and interactive, and cheap, allowing employees to have tailored, modular training to develop their skills in a way that is consistent with their own needs and demands? And what steps can the Welsh Government take to encourage the development of that?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

I’d like to thank the Member for his question and commend him for organising the seminar that took place in his constituency. In-work skills training opportunities, provided through schemes such as Essential Skills in the Workplace and the Wales Union Learning Fund, have proven to be absolutely vital for workers across Wales in gaining valuable skills that enable them to progress up a career ladder. But utilising new and emerging digital technologies will become more and more important. The fact is that many, many young people use their digital devices to learn, as much as they use their schools. Many will use YouTube and other search forms of social media in order to learn, and that should apply equally to adults who are looking to gain and retrain skills.

The Minister for Skills and Science has developed a skills gateway for employers, digitally driven, which enables one single point of entry to all forms of advice and guidance for employers. And, equally, the Minister has devised a similar skills gateway system for all individuals looking to acquire new skills, or to retrain, or to boost their existing learning opportunities.

Simon Thomas (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

I, and I’m sure other Members, welcome the statement made this morning by Government that there is going to be support for Yr Egin as part of the Swansea bay city region proposal, and I look forward to everyone collaborating to ensure that Yr Egin is a success and that S4C moves successfully to Carmarthen. Unfortunately, this morning’s statement didn’t mention how much money the Government was providing for the scheme, but press reports do talk about £6 million—£3 million from Government and £3 million from the Swansea bay city region programme. Can the Cabinet Secretary confirm those figures? Will he also confirm from which funding sources within Government that £3 million for Yr Egin is coming from?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Yes, that funding is coming from my own main expenditure group and I’m pleased to be able to support a project that doesn’t just have economic benefits for the region, but it’s my view, and it was the view of my colleagues, that is also has significant Welsh language, education, social and cultural contributions to make to the region as well.

Caroline Jones (UKIP, South Wales West)

6. Will the Cabinet Secretary outline the Welsh Government’s plans to increase visitor numbers to South Wales West? OAQ(5)0133(EI)

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Wales enjoyed two record-breaking years in 2014 and 2015, and then again in 2016, with visitor numbers crossing the 10 million mark for the first time back in 2014 and growing still further with record spend from staying visitors in 2015. South Wales West has been a significant contributor to that growth, with its wide range of heritage offers and beautiful landscapes and coastal regions.

Caroline Jones (UKIP, South Wales West)

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. Rhossili has once again been named one of the top-10 beaches in the UK and also enjoys being one of the most dog-friendly beaches in Britain. The Gower beach has just lost out on the top spot, but competes with the top beaches in Devon, Cornwall and Dorset. Cabinet Secretary, if we are to capitalise upon this and increase the number of visitors to my region, we have to ensure that we have adequate public transport links. What plans does your Government have to improve the transport infrastructure to top tourist destinations in Wales?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Can I thank the Member for her question and congratulate Rhossili beach? It’s a magnificent coup and I think it’s fair to say that it is now recognised around Britain and around Europe as one of the continent’s finest beaches. We’re keen to ensure that more people can visit Wales in a convenient way for that reason. We continue to support Cardiff Airport, we continue to support rail travel and we continue to support our bus network, but we do believe that further improvements can be made, not just to our rail infrastructure and rail services, but also to the bus network. As I’ve outlined in a series of statements now to the Chamber, in the coming four years it’s my belief that we can radically change the way that services are provided and operated and see significant improvements for passengers, not just those who are visiting Wales, but for the citizens of Wales as well.

Suzy Davies (Conservative, South Wales West)

Cabinet Secretary, a few weeks ago, you told me that when it comes to the protection of heritage so that we can promote faith tourism, it’s essential that Visit Wales uses its skills to promote Wales around the globe and to offer advice as well. While you outlined to me that Cadw has seen an increase in visitor numbers in Tintern and Valle Crucis, neither of those is actually in South Wales West. Can you give me some detail about how you hope that Visit Wales can use an anchor site like Neath abbey—you knew I was going to say this—to draw attention to what is, after all, a gateway site? The Neath and Swansea valleys are absolute treasure troves for visitors. So, what support can Welsh Government give to Neath abbey as a specific site in order to open up those floodgates for visitors to those two valleys?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Our heritage is remarkably important in our cultural and tourism offer and Neath abbey is a very important component of the heritage landscape in the Member’s region. I’m very pleased to say that Cadw are now supporting Neath abbey by having a dedicated in-house craft team working at the site. As a consequence, some areas of the abbey at the moment are inaccessible to the public, but with that dedicated work from the in-house craft team, I hope to be able to transform the abbey into a far better and more attractive tourist destination and visitor opportunity. But it’s not the only site in the Member’s region that is receiving support from Welsh Government. There are other assets, such as Oxwich castle and Hafod-Morfa Copperworks and Oystermouth castle, all of which are receiving funding. I’m keen to make sure that we can channel as much resource as possible through to south-west Wales because it is an incredibly attractive region of the UK, and I think the Member may, this evening, if she watches television, see the new advertisement from Visit Wales, which showcases some of our finest natural environment, but which also invites people in 2017 to generate their own legendary tales in Wales.

Darren Millar (Conservative, Clwyd West)

7. Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on economic growth in north Wales? OAQ(5)0123(EI)

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Yes. Skills, connective infrastructure and innovation are key drivers of productivity and growth. These are central to our approach to economic development across all parts of Wales.

Darren Millar (Conservative, Clwyd West)

Cabinet Secretary, what consideration have you given to the potential growth in the wood manufacturing industry in north Wales? You’ll be aware that there are significant parts of north Wales that have forestry on them, but there have been significant concerns raised by people involved in the wood manufacturing industry about the lack of Welsh timber available in the marketplace at present, and that is, frankly, putting a foot on the windpipe of that particular industry and the potential of that industry to grow and for people to come into the industry and invest in new wood manufacturing plants. Clifford Jones Timber in Ruthin in my own constituency, and Blazer’s Fuels Ltd, for example, are two businesses that have the opportunity to expand significantly if there can be a reliable timber resource that they can have. This is a concern, and I wonder what you’re doing from the economic side to promote that particular industry in Wales.

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Yes, the Member raises an important point. I’ve met with representative organisations—those who represent the wood manufacturing sector. It’s my belief that the wood manufacturing sector is not just good for the economy; it’s also actually good for the visitor economy more specifically, because the Member will know, from his close proximity to the Clwydian range, that a forested area of Wales is often more attractive than one that is deforested.

Darren Millar (Conservative, Clwyd West)

Llandegla.

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Yes, absolutely, Llandegla, as you point out. It is important that we can find opportunities to replant what has often been lost. For that reason, I’m working with the Cabinet Secretary for Environment and Rural Affairs to identify more opportunities to replant lost timber, not just, as I say, for the purpose of supporting the manufacturing sector, but also to support the visitor economy as well.

Hannah Blythyn (Labour, Delyn)

Cabinet Secretary, as you’ll know, connective infrastructure and high-quality transport networks are essential to the success of any economy and are especially key in the north-east Wales gateway area. It’s for that reason that I’ve welcomed the news of the Welsh Government’s intention to consult on the much-needed major improvements to the Deeside corridor—one of north Wales’s busiest sections of road. You’ll be aware that this has been raised with me time and time again by constituents and commuters alike, and I’ll be encouraging many individuals, community organisations and businesses to take part in the consultation when it opens on 13 March and which outlines two possible options for improvement.

Whilst we await the outcome of the consultation, I welcome this commitment by the Cabinet Secretary, which will see over £200 million invested in our area. But, Cabinet Secretary, will you make a commitment to keep the Assembly and, therefore, our communities and constituents in the area updated on the progress of this vital scheme, which will make an important contribution to stimulating economic growth in the area?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Can I thank the Member for her question? The Member is absolutely right to identify infrastructure as being a major enabler for further economic growth across north Wales. The development of a new corridor and the potential road widening of the A494 does indeed form part of a £200 million proposed investment and part of the biggest package of infrastructure investment in transport in north Wales since the dawn of devolution—something in the region of £600 million is being allocated for transport improvements across north Wales, and I’m pleased to be able to bring those projects forward.

In terms of consultation, we’ve moved at speed to bring that to commencement on 13 March. It will last 12 weeks. I will keep Members updated on the progress. I’m inviting residents across the region to give their views, not just online but also at a series of exhibitions.

The Member will also be interested to know that last week I awarded Flintshire council £85,000 to help it develop bus and active travel projects along the B5129 at Queensferry and into Deeside Industrial Park. As the Member knows, Deeside Industrial Park, as one of Europe’s biggest industrial parks, is a major employer for people in the constituency of Delyn, and we would like to encourage more people to access it through public transport and by active travel means. Our longer term plans for a metro scheme in north-east Wales will see a £50 million investment in the coming four years, and there are huge potential rewards for the local economy.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Finally, Rhun ap Iorwerth.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Ynys Môn)

Thank you very much, Llywydd. I know that the Cabinet Secretary is placing great emphasis on developing the relationship with the north-west of England and, of course, it is a very natural relationship and a very important relationship. But, isn’t there a risk of losing sight of the importance of developing the economy of north Wales in and of itself, of developing links with the west in Ireland and with the rest of Wales, by giving the impression that we would be content to be an annexe to the economy over the border?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

I think that’s an unfair assessment that, actually, demonstrates a lack of confidence and, dare I say it, pride in the Welsh economy. The fact is that the GVA of the Mersey Dee area, the north-east of Wales, and the local authority areas of Cheshire and the Wirral, amount to something in the region of 50 per cent of the GVA of Wales as a whole. Between them, they are huge economic forces, and they should also—both the Welsh and English partners—be in the driving seat of the Northern Powerhouse agenda. I do not wish to see Wales as a passenger in this area; I wish Wales to be driving the Northern Powerhouse initiative, and for that reason it is essential that we make sure the entire region is properly and fully connected. For that reason in turn, I am looking at developing a third crossing for the Menai strait and looking at improving the port infrastructure, so that we can have an access of economic prosperity that leads from Holyhead right through England, but which also connects, crucially, to the economy of Ireland.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary.

3. 2. Questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Health, Well-being and Sport

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The next item on our agenda is questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Health, Well-being and Sport. The first question is from David Melding.

David Melding (Conservative, South Wales Central)

1. Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on the treatment of rare diseases? OAQ(5)0125(HWS)

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Thank you for the question. We launched the Welsh implementation plan for rare diseases in February 2015 and established the rare disease implementation group. These actions reinforce our commitment to promoting equity of access to diagnosis, treatment and support to patients. The annual report, providing an update on progress, was published on 14 February.

David Melding (Conservative, South Wales Central)

Minister, I was very pleased at a recent event held in the Assembly to hear that the Welsh Government of Wales are leading the field in this area in terms of the UK. Whilst the diseases themselves are rare, there are a great many of them, which means that one in 17 of us is likely at some point in our lives to suffer a rare disease, in which the screening, testing, diagnosis and treatment is going to be absolutely crucial. I think it’s a very important area, often, perhaps because of the specific rarity of each condition, that is overlooked, so I hope that this priority will be maintained.

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Yes, I’m happy to give him that assurance. In fact, yesterday we published the CARIS data, I’ll tell you what that is—It’s the Congenital Anomaly Register and Information Service. Now, we established that in Wales in 1998, and that is part of what helps us to lead the field. It maintains information on all babies born to mothers in Wales, and that information is held about them if they do have a congenital anomaly or a rare disease until their eighteenth birthday, or when they would have reached their eighteenth birthday. It’s part of looking at that data and information that allows us to try and make further progress. We’re also taking part, with the rest of the UK, in the 100,000 Genomes Project, and have invested directly money within that. And, of course, the monies we’re investing in the new treatment fund—chunks of that money will go to treating people with rare diseases and conditions. So, I’m more than happy to give him the assurance this will continue to be an area of interest and action, and we expect to see further improvement.

Julie Morgan (Labour, Cardiff North)

I was very pleased to meet patients and families who are affected by haemophilia and contaminated blood at the rare disease event that David Melding referred to. As the Cabinet Secretary knows, I’m very concerned about the treatment of people with haemophilia who were given contaminated blood in the 1970s and 1980s, which has resulted in 70 deaths in Wales and many more other families affected. I’m aware that he wrote to his counterpart, Jeremy Hunt, last year giving his support for a public inquiry into the scandal. I wondered if he could tell us if he has had a response and, if he hasn’t, what further he intends to do, and, if he has, what is his reaction?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

No, I wouldn’t say I’ve had a satisfactory response from the UK Government. You’ll note that, after the cross-party Members’ debate we had in this Chamber, I undertook again to press the UK Government, and I’m awaiting a further response. Thus far, the UK Government have been resistant to having a public inquiry, and I recognise that that will be a continual problem for the families of those affected, both living and deceased, because until there is a proper public inquiry—which only the UK Government can provide because of where the information is about how the scandal erupted and was not properly brought to light—then I recognise that injustice will continue. So, this Government will maintain our commitment to keep on pressing the UK Government until we do see the right thing done.

Simon Thomas (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

2. What conclusions has the Cabinet Secretary reached in light of the report on the state of orthodontic services in Wales as discussed in the Assembly on 7 December 2016? OAQ(5)0123(HWS) [W]

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Thank you for the question. The report recognises the continuing good progress being made. Working with Public Health Wales, health boards and the clinical networks, we are using the report’s recommendations to inform action to further improve the effectiveness and efficiency of the delivery of this specialist orthodontic service here in Wales.

Simon Thomas (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

I thank the Cabinet Secretary for his reply. I’m not quite sure if we’ve been reading the same report, and I obviously looked at the report from the particular aspect of the area I represent and Hywel Dda in particular, where it says there is a real problem in accessing orthodontic services. I had confirmation this week from the British Dental Association as well that waiting lists in Hywel Dda for children aged between nine and 17 are, at the moment, at three years and four months, and that is against the target of six months. So, I have to ask, in light of the report, which doesn’t have any firm outcomes and targets within it, what is the Government doing to ensure that the constituents who I represent in the Hywel Dda health board region are able—particularly young constituents—to access orthodontic treatment within a reasonable period of time, remembering that this impacts upon their schooling and their upbringing?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

I accept what the Member is saying. Hywel Dda is one of our problem areas within an overall improving national picture. Hywel Dda itself has made further progress in the last few years, but there’s actually been a significant backlog built up within Hywel Dda. Some of that is about making more effective and efficient use of the specialist service that exists. It’s also about making sure that people really do get to see a specialist in this area, as opposed to a general practitioner who does some work. We actually think we get better outcomes for individuals doing that, but also about making sure that referrals are made at an appropriate time and for the appropriate service. So, it’s something about referral behaviour. It means proper investment in the specialist end of the service and those that are genuine specialists in this area, and trying to make sure that we properly meet and match the supply and demand. I do accept that, in Hywel Dda, that has not been the case to date. But the health board are investing in this particular area and I expect to see further improvement made, because, as you said, waiting times in the Hywel Dda area are too long and I expect to see further progress made in the rest of this Assembly term.

Paul Davies (Conservative, Preseli Pembrokeshire)

Cabinet Secretary, I very much echo the comments of the Member for Mid and West Wales, and I can highlight plenty of examples in my own constituency of patients having to go private and having to travel further afield for orthodontic treatment. So, in the circumstances, what additional steps are the Welsh Government taking to monitor the effectiveness of the working relationships between orthodontic practices and the Hywel Dda Local Health Board in terms of the management of local orthodontic provision?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Well, as I said in my response to the Member and, indeed, to his previous question before the new year break, we recognise in particular in Hywel Dda that there’s been a need to improve on where they are. There is something there, as I said, about making sure that specialist practice is undertaken in the service and that they are actually more effective and more efficient in turning round and providing additional capacity. The health board are investing more in that specialist area of provision, and, in fact, we know that more people have been seen in the last three years within Hywel Dda. We know that there have been 24 more assessment clinics in the last year throughout the health board area. But that doesn’t mean that it resolves the whole problem. They need to continue to do that to actually properly get into the backlog. So, I recognise that constituents across the Hywel Dda health board area, some of them are waiting simply too long for this specialist treatment. So, it is about investing in the future—not pretending that we can fix it within a period of months, but to make sure that people see, progressively, an improvement that is sustainable now and in the future.

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Thank you. I now call the party spokespersons to question the Cabinet Secretary for Health, Well-being and Sport, and first this week is Caroline Jones.

Caroline Jones (UKIP, South Wales West)

Diolch, Ddirprwy Lywydd. Cabinet Secretary, South Wales Police dealt with more mental health incidents last year than any other UK police force. Police officers in south Wales dealt with nearly 39,000 mental health issues during 2016. Cabinet Secretary, do you agree with me that people facing mental health issues should be cared for by specialist mental health services, rather than the criminal justice system? Can you outline the actions you are taking to reduce the number of mental health incidents being dealt with by police officers?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

I thank the Member for the comments. I think we need to be clear about what we’re talking about, because there’s a challenge of whether people continue to see a police cell as a place of safety, and that is not the view this Government takes, or the police force, or the health service. There’s actually much improved work that’s been undertaken between NHS Wales and police forces across the country, and I’m pleased to see there’s been a significant reduction in people inappropriately placed. We’re now down into very, very small figures. There’s still further improvement to go, but it really does depend on the categorisation that the Member uses, and whether or not these are people who are partly in the criminal justice system appropriately or are people with mental health problems who are being misplaced and not in the appropriate care for their actual care needs themselves.

Caroline Jones (UKIP, South Wales West)

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. The Mind workplace well-being index shows that mental health problems are the leading cause of workplace absence. Even the NHS is not immune, and we lost a third of a million days to mental health issues amongst health staff last year. One of the biggest barriers to tackling this issue is the lack of access to psychological and talking therapies. What is your Government doing to improve access to psychological therapies and reduce waiting times for mental health treatment in Wales?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

It’s no surprise to me that mental health reasons are a significant cause of workplace absence. From my previous time outside this place, as well as within it, I would be surprised if that were not the case. Our challenge is: how do we recognise it and the issues about stress within the workplace? We have specific programmes of activity, working with employers, and the awards we give about encouraging employers to take better and more anticipatory care of their workforce—recognising the significant gains to them as a business from doing so—as well as how we support people if they are out of the workplace. There’s something there about investing in occupational services in both the private and the public sectors to take care of our workers, and then, if people do need to access specialist mental health services and talking therapies, we, of course, have invested in those services successfully and progressively. This institution, as an Assembly, and, indeed, the Government, has recognised for a number of years the need to treat mental and physical health with a parity of esteem, and that has led to further investment in mental health services. We’re the first part of the UK to have meaningful working-time standards, and, actually, our performance against those is relatively good. However, there is more ground to achieve and more to be done. So, we can take some comfort in what we have done already and the priority for this area of action, but there’s much more to do before any of us can say that we’re satisfied.

Caroline Jones (UKIP, South Wales West)

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. While we welcome steps to improve the numbers working in mental health care, such as the introduction of new courses at Glyndŵr university focusing on mental health and well-being, we are still short of both staff and funding for mental health services in Wales. How do you respond to the director of Mind Cymru, who states that the mental health arena is still ‘significantly underfunded’? What plans does your Government have to increase resources allocated to tackling mental health issues, faced by one in four of us?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Well, you’ll know from the budget that this place passed that we’ve seen a significant additional resource go into mental health. It’s the largest area of spend within the health service budget, and that came from the sensible and mature conversation that took place between this Government and Plaid Cymru and others. Now, that’s meant that we are continuing to prioritise mental health as an area of action, and that is not the position that the third sector recognises takes place across our borders. I don’t complain about the third sector in this, or any other area, calling for more resources. It’s their job to campaign; it’s their job to champion issues. It’s our job, though, to manage a finite group of resources. So, I don’t think it’s good enough for the Government simply to say, ‘Someone has called for more, therefore we’ll provide it’. We have to balance that against other priorities. I’m clear that this is a priority area of action, and we’re seeing that in deed and not simply in words with the extra investment we are making in mental health services.

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Thank you very much. Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Rhun ap Iorwerth.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Ynys Môn)

Diolch, Ddirprwy Lywydd. Cabinet Secretary, we have discussed winter pressures on accident and emergency departments on many occasions. We now have the figures for January, which show that, in major A&E units, just 74.1 per cent of patients were seen within four hours. Now, when those figures were released, I think the BBC report stated that:

‘Undoubtedly there will be sighs of relief in the Welsh Government’.

Did you breathe a sigh of relief when you saw those figures?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

I think that’s a very odd way to try and pose a question about a serious issue for the health service and for everyone who works within it. This is a real and serious issue for people who require care, in particular during the winter period, when we know that more older people are more likely to need admission into a hospital for care, and more older people need support in their own home. It’s not about breathing a sigh of relief; it’s looking at where we are as a whole system. Where we recognise there’s a need for further improvement—and not just in A&E, but the points we’ve made previously about anticipatory care that you’ll be familiar with in your own constituency, with the advance care work that is taking place in Ynys Môn, but also about the delayed transfers of care as well. As we’ve seen from the last figures, we’ve made improvement and there’s room for further improvement, as the whole system needs to work together, health and social care. It’s not about a sigh of relief; it’s about saying, ‘Where are we now? What more can we do, and is that system resilient?’ The system is coping, but it is a very real struggle. We see it in the staff, we see it in the people needing care, and I expect and I want to see further improvement made over the course of the year, and to get ready for next winter as well.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Ynys Môn)

It’s not an odd way of asking at all. It’s asking for your assessment of where we are. I would have liked to hear a much stronger message in terms of ‘there must be much more improvement’. Those figures for Wales—74.1 per cent seen within four hours—I’ll remind you that, in England, the figure was 82 per cent, the worst performance in 13 years, seen as a scandal and a crisis in England. Of course there’s room for improvement in Wales.

We’ve discussed, of course, the importance of primary care and social care in helping relieve pressure on A&E on many occasions before. I’d like to focus on the role of general practitioners in providing urgent appointments. I’d like, on the record here, to send my sympathies to the family of Ellie-May Clark, whose case was reported over the weekend. Without getting into the specifics of this case, it’s clear that such a case is not going to help the perception that we’ve all heard, at times, that it’s difficult to get appointments with GPs. Now, yesterday, the older people’s commissioner released a report highlighting the barriers many people face in accessing the GP, with those perceptions about the difficulty of being seen very prominent in that report. Of course, lack of real data means that we don’t really know if perception matches reality, but one result certainly is that, if the perception is there, more people are going to go to A&E; we know the pressures on A&E. One way to address that perception, of course, would be to collect and publish more data on waiting times for the GP. Do you accept that we need performance data on availability of appointments and waiting times for a GP in order to tackle those perceptions?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

I don’t think it would actually be helpful to try and say that we’ll start to collect data for GP waiting times and appointments. You’d need to construct a significant system to do so, and I’m not at all persuaded that that would be the right thing to do to improve patient access. We have a range of different ways of trying to look at improving patient access, including, actually, peer-to-peer conversations between primary care operators who understand what best practice looks like, and the impact that that has had both for the staff within the service as well as for the citizens that they serve. I’m happy to look at alternative ways to improve practice, whether the ideas come from other parties or, indeed, the conversations that we continue to have with the British Medical Association and the Royal College of General Practitioners about the reality of the position that they face in caring for our patients up and down the country. The tragic case you mentioned is an individual instance that I do not think it would be reasonable to try and posit as an illustrative example of the reality of care that is provided up and down our country. It is a tragic case, and I look forward to seeing the outcome of the coroner’s inquest into what took place.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Ynys Môn)

It is about tackling perceptions, though, and I’m slightly disappointed again. Data are very, very important. Quite often, the Minister claims an achievement and there are no data to back it up, when often there are data to back up where the problems are occurring within the NHS. There is an underlying problem, of course, throughout the emergency care system. We know there are people of all ages with chronic conditions that need to be managed in the community, including being able to have same-day consultations and so on where necessary.

Now, the older people’s commissioner’s report also highlighted the barriers many people face in discussing issues with a GP they might not know, with time limits on how long they have to describe the symptoms, and so on. The report even notes that one person said there was a notice in reception at one surgery saying that there was a one-issue rule—clearly not appropriate in an age in which more and more people have multiple conditions that the NHS has to deal with. Do you accept, then, that, if patients feel rushed by a GP, or turned away from an appointment, patient safety is compromised, ultimately? Will you agree that neither practice is acceptable and needs to be stopped?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Well, I think it’s a pretty cheap shot to say that I claim achievement for the health service without there being data or evidence to support it. I recognise what you say about perception, but I don’t think championing perception over evidence is a particularly helpful thing for the opposition spokesperson to do. I take seriously the older person’s commissioner’s report, and I’ve already undertaken to write to health boards highlighting the messages from that report and reminding them about the guidance that the older person’s commissioner will be issuing.

I want to see a genuine conversation between the Government, the health service, practitioners within the service, and the public, on what would make a difference to them. We see good examples across the country of changes in practice that are improving access for people and making it easier for them to have a consultation with the right healthcare professional at the right time for them. That is the approach we’ll continue to take as we do recognise that we think there is a need to improve access across every part of our healthcare system, to have a more involved and engaged patient, and that does mean that both people who access and use our service will need to behave in a different way and understand different ways of accessing that service, and to be supported in doing so and have the changes that are being made explained—for example, a more remote consultation process as a first point, for example, in the Neath pacesetter that I saw with both Jeremy Miles and David Rees; that’s been well explained there and broadly well supported and received by the public—but also about supporting our staff to work in different ways as well.

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Thank you very much. The Welsh Conservative spokesperson, Suzy Davies. I think your questions are to be directed to the Minister for Social Services and Public Health.

Suzy Davies (Conservative, South Wales West)

Yes, thank you very much, Dirprwy Lywydd. Good afternoon, Minister. Thank you for your announcement yesterday on the appointment of the inaugural board for Social Care Wales. As we know, its duties will extend well beyond those of registration, as fulfilled by the care council, and its chairman made plan to me yesterday that they’re looking forward to using their combined expertise to be a critical friend to Government as well as influencing direction and priorities in policy for social care and social services. This, hopefully, may redress the imbalance of the solitary expert voice for social care on the parliamentary review panel. How do you as Minister plan to capitalise on this body of expertise in order to avoid the integration agenda resulting in a sort of medical model for social care, and how have you evaluated how much more resource it’ll need than the care council in order to carry out its roles in professional development and policy influence?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

I thank you for the question. I understand that you had a very useful meeting with members of the board yesterday, and I think that the advent of Social Care Wales is a really exciting time for the provision of social services and social care more widely in Wales. When I was putting together the membership of the board—and I should say we had unprecedented interest in it, which, again, is really exciting—I was keen to ensure that the board did have a strong balance of people. So, we have service users on the board, we have people from all kinds of sectors that work within social care, to try and ensure that there is a strong and wide expertise and voices on that board as well. So, I’ll be working closely with the board, especially in the early terms, to work on their programme for the future in terms of their programme of work and so on, and to ensure that they are properly resourced to undertake the work that I’ll be asking them to do.

With regard to the parliamentary review, though, I do think it’s unfair to suggest that there isn’t enough expertise in social care on that panel. The members of that panel were chosen because they have such expertise that they can take a whole-system look at health and social care, and the terms of reference have been clear that it is a whole-system approach that we are looking for. Of course, we did set up a specific sub-group as well, which is specifically looking at social care as well, so I do think that social care will be well represented and well considered by the parliamentary review.

Suzy Davies (Conservative, South Wales West)

You’re well blessed, Minister, in having this support in helping you make sure that the voice of social care is well represented in what’s likely to be happening over the next period of this Assembly, anyway. One of the things that you won’t find any opposition from anybody on, I suspect, in this Chamber, is the focus on the integration of health and social care, really focusing on primary and intermediate care levels. These, themselves, are NHS terms. They’re medical structures, and I think an explicit statement of intent to adopt a more social-focused model of integration would actually be pretty welcome in this Chamber. Medical intervention is, when you come to it, just part of social care. Emotional support and the place of human contact can be just as important, not least to carers, who themselves may not have any medical needs, of course. They’re at the heart of any future look at care—as, indeed, will be the nature of housing and the cross-pollination of skills in an integrated workforce. It’s going to need considerable and ongoing research to support good practice and policy development, so is this a job that you foresee, at some point, Social Care Wales taking over? Obviously it would complement their work in career design and development. And if not, why not?

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

I thank you for that question, and I agree that carers play an absolutely central role in the whole system of social care in Wales, and you’ll be aware that we’re refreshing our carers strategy at the moment. Part of that is looking at young carers, older carers, carers of older people—but also looking to ensure that carers can actually have a life outside caring as well, because we know how important that is. And our carers strategy will be led by the key things that carers are telling us are important to them. When talking about the intermediate care fund, I prefer to talk about it and think about it as an integrated care fund, which is handy because it doesn’t require any changing of the ICF letters, but it is very much integrated in the sense that it is working, in many places, closely with housing, for example, to ensure that we have step-up, step-down facilities available within the extra-care setting: so, places where people can find a residential placement that will change with their needs over time. So, people with early dementia might be able to go to an extra-care setting, where they won’t have to move over time, but the support available to them in that place can change with them, and I think that that’s an important way in terms of improving the care that people receive.

I recently was at the launch of the Health and Care Research Wales project, which took place in Cardiff, and that’s about bringing universities together with the social care sector itself, because we have such expertise within the social care sector in terms of the practitioners and the social workers and so on, but I don’t think that, so far, we’ve been making the most of that expertise and of those experiences and the potential for research there. So, again, this a new and exciting innovation in terms of being able to understand very well what’s happening in social care, looking at barriers and opportunities and so on, and listening to people who actually do the work on the front line.

Suzy Davies (Conservative, South Wales West)

Thank you very much for that answer, actually. I still want to develop that a little bit further because the future of social care—we’re not talking about it because it’s fashionable. It’s because it matters to so many people and we all recognise that it needs change. And even though I, personally, have no fixed view on whether this should be evolutionary or revolutionary, what I’m really looking for is an indication from you about quite how brave you’re going to be when it comes to innovation. So, for example—this is just an example, as well—there’s a nursing home in the Netherlands that allows university students to live rent free alongside elderly residents in that nursing home, in a 30-hour per month ‘acting as a good neighbour’ contract, as part of a project aimed at warding off negative effects, and there are similar intergenerational programmes in Lyon and in Cleveland in Ohio. One programme, which began in Barcelona in the 1990s, has been replicated in more than 20 cities. We really have to lift our eyes at what’s going on in the rest of the world, I think. So, I’d be very interested to know whether you’re discussing similar ideas with private providers, housing associations and colleges and universities. And I’m glad that you hinted at that earlier on, because if we’re going to make this really work, it has got to be about more than just local authorities and the NHS.

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

I agree that we do have to think very innovatively about it, because of the scale of the challenge—there’s no doubt about that. Innovation really does need to be central to our approach to meeting those challenges. Some of the models that you described I am familiar with, and I’ve asked officials to provide me with some more advice, because I do think that learning from best practice from other countries is something that we should absolutely be keen to do—as I would hope other countries can look to us in areas where we are performing well, as well.

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Thank you very much. We now turn to the questions on the order paper again. Question 3—Dawn Bowden.

Dawn Bowden (Labour, Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney)

3. Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on cancer screening services in Wales? OAQ(5)0134(HWS)

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

We have well-established screening programmes for breast, cervical and bowel cancer, with more than 400,000 men and women routinely screened each year. Breast cancer screening became a fully digitalised service in 2012 and we have recently announced planned improvements to the tests used for bowel and cervical cancer screening.

Dawn Bowden (Labour, Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney)

Thank you, Minister, for that response. I’d just like to specifically refer to cervical screening, if I may. I think we all agree on the benefits of early diagnosis of cancer wherever possible, but this also raises the question of the appropriate age at which certain screening should start. I don’t know whether I’m alone in being approached by constituents calling for cervical screening for women to revert to screening at age 20, but certainly I’ve been contacted along those lines.

I’m aware, of course, that the decision to raise the age from 20 to 25 in 2013 was based on guidance from the UK national screening committee, which not only questioned the benefits of early screening but also highlighted some of the potential harm in routine screening on women below the age of 25. In that context, the roll-out of the HPV vaccine to schoolgirls from the age of 12 to 13 has been very welcome, as has the primary testing for HPV as part of the screening process.

However, my main concern in relation to cervical cancer screening relates to the slight fall in the percentage of women who are presenting for screening. In particular, it’s noticeably lower in deprived areas. Would the Minister agree with me that, alongside the changes that we are seeing in cervical cancer screening, there is a need to ensure that there’s a key role for Welsh Government and all healthcare providers not only to play their part in raising awareness amongst patients of the screening provisions, but also in operating what NICE termed the low threshold of suspicion when considering referrals for testing? That is the threshold at which, based on symptoms, a GP or care provider takes the decision to refer a patient for further tests.

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

Thank you very much for that question. I absolutely agree with you, obviously, that early detection of cancer is crucial, because it allows for a combination of more effective and less intensive treatments for the individual and, obviously, the better outcomes that that will lead to.

In addition to the screening programmes, it is important that the 2015 NICE guidance for the recognition and referral of suspected cancer is embedded in clinical practice to ensure that the health service identifies more cancers at an early stage. I agree with you there. We’ve developed a programme of support for primary care, in partnership with Macmillan, called the framework for cancer and that’s being led through the Wales cancer network. There are also provisions in the GP contract as well to support practice-based learning and further work through the cancer network to support better access to testing.

You referred to the issue of the 2012 UK national screening committee’s recommendation on ceasing cervical screening for those women aged 20 to 24. You’ll be aware that the screening committee is an expert voice, basing its decisions and advice to all UK Government Ministers on the evidence, and the evidence does show that cervical cancer screening for women under 25 offers little protection as abnormalities are very common within this age group and are usually self-limiting. Furthermore, the detection of abnormalities through screening in women under 25 does lead to considerable over-treatment and that can lead to later problems with pregnancy and so on.

Going on to the point you raised about the slight fall in uptake, which is a concern to all of us—but particularly of concern is the inequality in uptake. We know that people in more affluent communities are much more likely to take up all of our screening programmes, actually, than those living in poorer communities. For our programmes to reach their potential, we have to ensure that we reach out to all communities.

So, how do we do that? I think a combination of awareness raising, which you referred to, and more simple and practical testing and easier testing is important as well, which is why our move to HPV testing for cervical cancer and FIT testing for bowel cancer will be so important in that regard as well. We do have a screening engagement team in Public Health Wales, which is working with public health teams, health boards and primary care to raise uptake amongst particularly hard-to-reach groups. I can certainly write to the Member with some examples of what’s taking place as well.

Mohammad Asghar (Conservative, South Wales East)

Minister, women at high risk of ovarian cancer are advised to have their ovaries and fallopian tubes removed as there is, currently, no screening programme for the disease in Wales. Research published in the ‘Journal of Clinical Oncology’ shows that a blood test—a simple blood test—every four months could help to detect ovarian cancer earlier, when tumours should be easier to treat and remove. What plans does the Minister have to make regular blood testing available to women at high risk of ovarian cancer in Wales? Thank you.

Rebecca Evans (Labour, Gower)

I thank you for that question. This is an issue that we discussed at some length recently in the Petitions Committee. The Petitions Committee has produced a report based on the evidence that it took from the Government, but also from members of the public and from the leading cancer charities. The leading cancer charities actually were not in favour of introducing the screening. This is one of those cases where you do have to balance up the risks and the benefits, and the risks outweigh the benefits in this case at the moment on the evidence that we have. But, we have said that we will keep a close eye on emerging evidence from the UK and across the globe on this particular issue.

Darren Millar (Conservative, Clwyd West)

4. Will the Cabinet Secretary provide an update on waiting times for treatment in north Wales? OAQ(5)0117(HWS)

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

I expect all patients, whether in planned or unscheduled care, to be seen and treated in a timely manner based on clinical need. Some orthopaedic waits in particular are not acceptable, as I have already made clear. I expect to see improvement in this year’s March figures, with further improvement in the year ahead.

Darren Millar (Conservative, Clwyd West)

Thank you for that answer, Cabinet Secretary. You’ll be aware that I raised the orthopaedic waiting times for hip operations in particular with the First Minister during a recent First Minister’s question time, and made reference to the fact that the routine waiting time at the moment at Glan Clwyd Hospital is 112 weeks for such operations, in spite of the Welsh Government’s 26-week target. At that time, the First Minister laughably responded that a hand surgeon had been appointed at Glan Clwyd—a locum hand surgeon—in order to reduce waits in this area. I’m pleased that you recognise that that is not going to deal with the problem of waiting times for my constituents. Can I ask you, given that the health board is currently in special measures, what responsibility do you, as a Welsh Government, recognise is your responsibility for the lengthening of these waiting times over the past two years?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

To be fair, the follow-up question that you asked the First Minister wasn’t specifically about hip waiting times, so you got a response about general orthopaedic action. There is a challenge here about hips within the orthopaedic waiting times that the health board are experiencing. On the Ysbyty Glan Clwyd site, it’s where they see the most complex patients, and, actually, they are the long-waiters—they are more likely to be long-waiters. Unfortunately, there isn’t the capacity available to deal with all of those people at present. There’s a medium-term plan that’s being constructed by the health board, together with their clinicians, to actually tackle that, because we recognise that they do need to do that.

Overall waiting times are much more reasonable. The challenge is this particular group and other particular groups of longer-term waiters. Part of the challenge for the health board is the capacity that they do have and the capacity that they’ve previously been able to make use of within the English system, of which there is less, but it’s also, actually, about the fact that there has been a significant increase in demand in the health board area. In fact, the number of people who have been referred for orthopaedic treatment in secondary care has gone up over 83 per cent in the last four years. Actually, the number of people seen and treated within time has gone up by a third in that time.

So, you see that there’s a mismatch in the ability to see and treat more people, which the health board has done, and to actually meet the demand itself. That’s why actually delivering against the planned care programme is really important—those measures have to go forward. It’s why the support that we provide to the health board matters. It’s not just money, but some of the expertise and the scrutiny of their plans. Of course, I expect to see further improvement over this year and the next year as well. It will be part of the scrutiny and accountability exercise that takes place—whether this health board or any other is in special measures—because, as I’ve said before, I recognise that these long waiting times are not acceptable, and it’s a challenge for this part of the health service and every other.

Llyr Gruffydd (Plaid Cymru, North Wales)

I’ve stood in this Chamber a number of times in the past criticising the health board and drawing the Cabinet Secretary and others’ attention to a number of problems and frustrations, so it’s only fair that I congratulate when there is room to do that. In this context, I want to congratulate the health board on the use of the app on waiting times that has been produced—well, not produced, but, certainly, it is being used in north Wales now. As a parent, it is something that I’ve had cause to use, and I know of other parents who’ve used it. I was looking now—three hours in Glan Clwyd, a little over two hours in Wrexham Maelor, and no waiting time in the minor injuries unit in Denbigh. And so, I’m sure that you would join with me in congratulating the board—as you’ve recognised in the past—on this development.

But what I want to ask you, of course, is: what is being done to ensure that this best practice is adopted across Wales? But also, what investment is your Government making to enable Welsh health boards to make similar investments in this technology, which each and every one of us has, which, in turn, will help to tackle some of the very practical problems that the service is facing?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

I thank you for recognising the success of the app, both in terms of how user-friendly it is but also its usefulness to people seeking to access unscheduled care in particular. This isn’t a particular issue about the cost in developing the app from now, and actually spreading it out; it’s actually about understanding enough time and enough evidence about the value of it. And, actually, it’s been really helpful to have one health board leading in its application.

It’s fair to say there was some anxiety within the service about whether this would prove to be an innovation that would be helpful, or whether it would provide more questions than answers. And, in fact, when I was in Ysbyty Gwynedd on Monday, making a positive announcement on investment in a new accident and emergency department, staff themselves commented they’d actually found the app helpful, and people attending had found it helpful as well. So, it’s been a positive start, but I think, once we have more data on its use and its usefulness, then we will of course look at how we can take that learning forward for the rest of our system—not just in north Wales, but across the rest of NHS Wales as well.

Suzy Davies (Conservative, South Wales West)

5. Will the Cabinet Secretary provide an update on accident and emergency waiting times in South Wales West? OAQ(5)0128(HWS)

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Thank you for the question. Emergency departments in South Wales West have continued to experience significant pressure and demand throughout this winter. Members will, of course, recall that this is part of the reason why Abertawe Bro Morgannwg University Local Health Board is in targeted intervention, because of the lack of sustained progress on unscheduled care. There has been some improvement compared to last winter, but there is still further progress to be made.

Suzy Davies (Conservative, South Wales West)

Thank you for that answer, and I’m glad that you acknowledge the concerns, and can confirm that intervention is actually happening now. I’ve got a slightly different question to ask you, so bear with me on this, because it’s about district nurses.

The Assembly, as you know, took evidence that the number of district nurses in Wales has dropped by 40 per cent in the last five years, with fears of further losses. And the work that district nurses do, to ensure patient recovery in their own homes, is absolutely part of keeping people out of hospital, and that’s what I’m coming to on this. Things like blocked catheters and undressed wounds shouldn’t actually, in themselves, be reasons for people to go to hospital. But if they’re not dealt with, they do become reasons to go to hospital; the consequences can be very serious, including things like sepsis.

So, can you tell us the level of emergency admissions to hospital, in Morriston, and elsewhere, as the result of conditions that have deteriorated due to insufficiently frequent attention by district nurses, and the effect of that then on A&E waiting times? Perhaps you can also tell us whether the new funding you’ve announced for nursing staff will represent replacement of those sorts of skills that district nurses have, and that we are at risk of losing. Thank you, Cabinet Secretary.

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

I’m not able to tell you today the sort of data that you’re asking—. I think it’s a fairly complex exercise to undertake. I’ll see if it is possible to do, but to be able to say whether it’s been a challenge to the district nursing service that’s led to an admission that’s led to a challenge in waiting times, I think is some ask, regardless of the identity of the Minister, or the civil servants available to them.

But I recognise the point that, actually, the district nursing service is an important part of the care that’s going to keep people in their own homes, and to maintain a level of independence for them. I recently had the opportunity, with my constituency Member hat on, to accompany members of the Royal College of Nursing, in my own constituency, to see some of the variety in the service that they provide—and, actually, quite complex healthcare provision, compared with what you might think takes place, including end-of-life care, recovery from significant injury, and those people who simply aren’t able to get around as they would wish to.

So, I’ve seen for myself the direct value that district nurses provide, in both recovery, rehabilitation, but also in prevention as well. And I’m happy to confirm that the £95 million investment I announced recently, in the future of healthcare training and education, does include a 13 per cent increase in nurse training. So, we recognise the value of district nurses, and we recognise the need to continue to increase, not simply to replace, but to think about how we increase nursing numbers in those areas of particular demand.

David Lloyd (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

What additional support are you offering to the administration of the hospital in Morriston to improve arrangements to deal with the number of patients who attend the emergency department there?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

I recently visited Moriston Hospital to have a presentation, on a range of different topics, actually, but during the visit, I took the opportunity to go into the emergency department. And it was really interesting to see, at that time, that I think they recognise that some of their own internal workings of the system has improved, but also they now think they have a better relationship both outside the front door, with the development of primary care clusters, but importantly as well within the hospital system. You’ll know from your own time within the health system, both in this place and outside it, that there is a feeling in some emergency departments that they’re not properly connected to the rest of the hospital, as if those problems at the front door remain at the front door. And, actually, there’s been a greater level of understanding that it is a whole-hospital system and they need to see that as their problem as well, and with linkage into those other specialities within the hospital to take people out of the emergency department and back into the hospital where their appropriate care and treatment will be needed.

And it’s also about the improvements in delayed transfers of care as well. In particular, in the Swansea local authority, there have been some real challenges about some of the care places that are available outside of the hospitals, but we’ve seen some improvement. So, I’m encouraged by the fact that there has been that acknowledgement of the challenge, and that it isn’t just a secondary care challenge—it is a whole-health service challenge, but also, a health and care challenge as well. And, of course, you’ll be aware that, following the £50 million investment we’ve provided, the health board’s share of that is over £9 million. So, there is real support in terms of money, as well as expertise, and some of the sharing, in fact, which is taking place between different health boards about successful systems and processes they have themselves. So, there’s a range of different actions. I expect to see that improvement, and I look forward to having a continued conversation with yourself and other Members to see where that really is going to take place.

Caroline Jones (UKIP, South Wales West)

Cabinet Secretary, ABMU has consistently high numbers of people waiting more than 12 hours in its A&E departments. In January we saw a total of 890 people waiting more than 12 hours at the two major accident and emergency departments. Wales’s biggest A&E department only saw 150 people waiting for that length of time. Cabinet Secretary, given that ABMU is trialling the 111 service to reduce inappropriate attendances at A&E, how do we explain such high numbers? Morriston Hospital has the highest number of 12-hour waits for any A&E department in Wales. Thank you.

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

And those are part of the challenges that I’ve put to the health board and within the service. And it is the case that people do talk to each other across the service. Emergency department consultants talk to each other, and lead nurses talk to each other about practice within their departments. So, there is a genuine attempt to share learning. But you’re right—the Heath has a significantly lower proportion and number of people who wait more than 12 hours to be seen, treated and discharged. That’s part of the challenge that I think has been recognised in my response to Dai Lloyd, actually, about recognising that it’s a whole-system problem within the whole-hospital system, as well as outside it. And if you can’t deal with some of the challenges about being able to move people, not just into an emergency department, but through that department, and either out of the hospital altogether, or into the hospital, if that’s the appropriate place for them, that’s part of the reason why some people wait too long. And I recognise there are too many people waiting too long. And I’ve never tried to soft-soap that, or cover over that.

It’s really about: will we see a determined increase in the ability to deliver within this health board, and in others, to make sure that fewer people wait 12 hours to be seen, treated and discharged, and how we build on the successful trial of 111? It’s been a really successful innovation, and, again, compared to what happened in England, where they had real challenges in 111 actually delivering a greater number of people to be referred into emergency departments, that hasn’t happened. And there’s good evidence that 111 is actually taking people away from that department by providing them with alternative pathways for care. So, there are positives within the whole system, but no lack of understanding from this Government, or the health service, that there are still continued challenges and further improvements that all of us expect to see take place.

Lee Waters (Labour, Llanelli)

6. Why can’t people routinely make appointments to see their doctor via Skype or FaceTime? OAQ(5)0129(HWS)

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Thank you for the question. The Welsh Government has invested £1.2 million in providing Skype for Business for the NHS. Consultations can be undertaken with this technology when the patient and the health professional are content, although there may be instances when the health professional may need to undertake a face-to-face consultation or physical examination following a consultation.

Lee Waters (Labour, Llanelli)

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. The widespread adoption of digital technologies means we don’t need to require people who are ill to travel long distances to see doctors anymore. It frustrates me that the NHS often defaults to sending letters or even faxes—surely one of the last bastions of the use of the fax machine in modern society. It’s often patient confidentiality or security that’s cited as barriers as to why these innovations can’t be adopted. But advances are being made in England and the UK common technology services, which are linked to the Cabinet Office, is offering secure internet for the public sector without the need to resort to expensive private networks. I do feel that we need to confront these barriers to make sure that we are capturing the innovation available to other parts of the society for patients within the NHS.

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

I recognise the challenge that you put and it’s part of our informed healthcare digital plan for the future. We expect more people to be able to routinely use remote access and remote consultation with the healthcare profession, in both primary care and also in secondary care. I certainly wouldn’t want to give the impression that none of this had taken place. Some of that can be done by telephone now and some of it can be done by video call as well. For example, when I was in Ysbyty Gwynedd on Monday, I had a very interesting presentation from the Cartref project, which is the future hospital project sponsored by the Royal College of Physicians. They were able to show me an active clinic where someone was actually based in the hospital, and they had people who were attending a clinic in a more remote hospital for people who didn’t have access in their own homes to IT facilities, and they were having their consultation remotely. That was a regular feature and a regular part of it. And actually, the individual citizens using the service in that way were quite happy to do so because they recognised it saved them a long and difficult journey to do so.

So, I recognise the point you make and, in particular, as we reform out-patient services across the NHS in Wales, when you think not just about people who don’t need to use out-patients at all, where the follow-ups aren’t necessary, but those people who do need an out-patients follow-up in particular, what do they need to do and where can they be seen? Certainly, in eye-care, for example, we’ve already seen significant improvements in actually seeing people in different parts of our healthcare system by transferring images to make sure that the person doesn’t need to physically arrive. And actually, it is not just a significant use of time, but it isn’t always a good use of time either for the individual citizen or, sometimes, for the clinician to move around doing it from a remote clinic. So, there are significant opportunities for gain and a much better use of everyone’s resource.

Jenny Rathbone (Labour, Cardiff Central)

7. What treatments are available to mothers who become incontinent as a result of injury during childbirth? OAQ(5)0118(HWS)

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

I thank the Member for the question. All maternity services in Wales work in collaboration with both physiotherapist and specialist continence services. These services provide assessment and identify continence problems with referral to specialist continence services for treatment and individualised care planning.

Jenny Rathbone (Labour, Cardiff Central)

One in 10 women have anal sphincter injuries as a result of childbirth. It’s hardly ever spoken about because people feel too embarrassed to raise it. But I’m glad to say that it’s rising up the medical agenda: there’s a conference being organised by a new charity, which is championing mothers with anal sphincter injuries in childbirth, and it’s being held at the Royal College of Medicine. A lot of eminent physicians and surgeons are involved, and the president of the Royal College of Midwives. So, I very much welcome a light being shone on something that is rarely spoken about, because it causes misery to women across Wales.

So, I’m really concerned that Wales is not going to necessarily be at the forefront of tackling this issue. I wondered if you could tell us why Cwm Taf recently had its application for sacral nerve stimulation therapy for faecal incontinence turned down by the efficiency-through-technology fund, even though Wales is the only country in the UK that doesn’t offer this NICE-approved treatment. Would you be prepared to look at it again, given that there will be a lot more pressure on us to establish why it is we are not able to offer this service to so many mothers?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

I have slightly certain different figures on the incidence. The incidence that I have is 6 per cent in first-time deliveries as opposed to 10 per cent, but I recognise that there is a significant proportion of women give birth who will suffer this particular injury. It’s partly about the conversations that should take place in good midwifery care about the preparation for birth and being fit and ready for birth but also recovery afterwards too. In the particular issue that you raise about the Cwm Taf application to the efficiency through technology fund, we allocate funds on a competitive basis, looking at the particular level of gain to be made from each application. And it is a simple truth that there are more good ideas and more ways in which we could usefully use that fund than the fund itself can provide. But the point that you make is actually about: I recognise it is NICE approved and it should normally be undertaken in specialist units. Where those specialist units are not available in the local hospital, it’s about making sure that there is access to them and each health board needs to make sure that there’s a proper network to do so. I will, though, given that you’ve raised a particular issue, undertake to go away and look at the particular issue within Cwm Taf and look at how that service is provided to women who give birth in Cwm Taf and how they’re able to access this part of their care after birth.

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Thank you very much, Cabinet Secretary.

4. 3. 90-second Statements

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

We move on to item 3 on the agenda, which is 90-second statements and I call Vikki Howells.

Vikki Howells (Labour, Cynon Valley)

Diolch, Ddirprwy Lywydd. Getting outdoors is so good for us, not just physically, but also mentally. It takes us away from the stresses of the fast-paced, technology-driven world that we live in and gets us back to simplicity and nature to give our brains that much needed rest. Those are the words of my constituent, Tracy Purnell of Newtown, Mountain Ash, who beat almost 500 hopefuls to become the Ordnance Survey champion 2017, in which role she will lead this year’s GetOutside challenge, inviting members of the public to join her on local walks to improve their physical and mental well-being.

Also today, Ramblers Cymru launched their 10-year vision to create a true walking culture here in Wales, in association with my colleague the AM for Ogmore. Their vision is of a Wales where people understand their rights and responsibilities and where places, landscapes and our natural heritage are treasured community assets and where everyone has the freedom to enjoy the great Welsh outdoors that is, often literally, on our doorsteps.

Walking is the most accessible form of exercise and if we could encourage Welsh citizens to walk more, we could reduce the £314 million that physical inactivity costs the Welsh economy every year. It is also good for Welsh citizens. Heightened physical activity levels through walking reduces the risk of health conditions like heart disease, diabetes and even depression. In particular, we need to encourage our young people to walk more. So, I welcome Welsh Government initiatives like the daily mile to get our schoolchildren into good habits, and look forward to working with ramblers on a project in my constituency this year.

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Thank you very much. Nick Ramsay.

Nick Ramsay (Conservative, Monmouth)

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. In the last 10 years, skin cancer diagnosis rates in Wales have risen by 63 per cent, with 140 people dying every year from the disease. In the same time, melanoma incidence rates in Wales have risen by 86 per cent for men and by almost half for women. These rates are unacceptably high for a cancer that can be protected against with one simple change: using sun cream. We need to be doing more to warn the people of Wales about the deadly risks of exposing their skin to UV rays without effective protection in the form of sun cream.

Skin Care Cymru is a volunteer-run charity that gives a voice to people with skin conditions in Wales. They campaign to raise awareness and educate on how people can protect themselves and spot the signs of skin cancer. Their message to Welsh people from this March is, ‘Don’t be a lobster on Welsh beaches, and use sun cream as we move into the spring and summer months.’

You may have already seen that, for St David’s Day, Welsh flags across the country have been transformed. Look out for our famous Welsh dragon being replaced by a bright red lobster. This figure—a well-known symbol for sunburn—will be flying in 35 locations across our country: from the Wales Millennium Centre in Cardiff, to Pembroke Castle, and all the way to the summit of mount Snowdon. All of this is to encourage people to be aware of the risk the sun can pose and to encourage them to cover up with sun cream when they expose their skin to harmful rays. Even in Wales, where the sun doesn’t always shine, it’s important to guard against the dangers of UV and to stay protected.

Skin Care Cymru is asking us to fully support its ‘Don’t be a Lobster’ campaign, which launches today and will continue through the summer months. The more Welsh people who are educated about these risks, the more lives will be saved.

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Thank you very much. Sian Gwenllian.

Siân Gwenllian (Plaid Cymru, Arfon)

Yesterday morning at 9 o’clock, a bright, young student from Bangor, and her mother, were supposed to be on a plane to Sri Lanka against their will. Following a brief campaign, Shiromini Satkunarajah was allowed to stay, for the time being at least. Shiromini’s story has grabbed the imagination of thousands of people in all parts of Britain. It’s underlined just how unpleasant the immigration system is. It’s also demonstrated something very important in these troubled days. Shiromini’s story demonstrates what’s possible with determination and perseverance. Shiromini’s story demonstrates that people power, taking action with one strong voice, can make a change. Very late in the day, we succeeded in changing the Home Office’s mind. The role of Hywel Williams, the Member of Parliament for Arfon, was crucial in this. Bangor University and the students’ union were very vocal in their support too. More importantly, perhaps, way over 150,000 people raised their voices—a simple act of signing a petition, but a mass act that was very powerful indeed. Shiromini is now very eager to return to her engineering studies at Bangor University. Her battle to remain in Wales is not over, but at least we succeeded with this first step. She has asked me to send a message. She is very eager to thank everyone who has supported her, so thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer, for the opportunity to make that point in our national Senedd today.

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Thank you very much.

5. 4. Statement by the Chair of the Constitutional and Legislative Affairs Committee on Inquiries and Engagement

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Item 4, then, is the statement by the Chair of the Constitutional and Legislative Affairs Committee on inquiries and engagement. I call Huw Irranca-Davies as Chair of that committee.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Diolch, Ddirprwy Lywydd. As we celebrate our national day, St David’s Day, it’s an ideal opportunity for me to speak on behalf of the committee to outline our current inquiry on Wales’s devolution journey. While looking back, we will also examine how the National Assembly and the Welsh Government, now and in future, can work with counterparts across the UK to further improve the lives of citizens across our country.

The National Assembly for Wales is still a very young democratic institution. Less than two decades old, and yet firmly established as a part of Wales’s civic and constitutional life; it is as if it has always been there to new generations of young people. Yet the process of devolution is just that: a process. It has often been remarked that devolution is a journey, not a destination. For some that is a worry, and for others an opportunity. But whichever view you have, it is certainly a reality. Including the Act of Parliament that established the first Welsh Government and National Assembly for Wales, there have now been five—yes, five—substantive pieces of Westminster law that have helped take us along the journey. Each has, to varying degrees, been controversial or contested. Each has taken us a step forward, though, arguably, with an occasional step sideways or backwards.

Meanwhile, with increasing powers in many areas, we have made our own laws in devolved areas, building up a new body of ‘made in Wales’ legislation. We know that on this journey there have been many bumps in the road, and sometimes those bumps are due to difficult negotiations—politically and in policy terms—between Whitehall departments and Welsh Government on the latest transfer of powers. Or those bumps can be the week-by-week departmental issues of diverging policies on the economy, health or education, and so on. So our committee has decided to reflect on the journey so far, finding out what has worked well, and what has been less effective. Our intention is threefold: to produce best practice principles for inter-institutional working for constitutional legislation; to reflect and build on the work of other legislatures on inter-institutional working as it relates to broader policy areas; and, thirdly, to seek, establish and promote opportunities for inter-parliamentary working, including the promotion of citizen engagement.

Our recent experience in scrutinising what has now become the Wales Act 2017 will help inform our work, and help us identify how interrelationships can be built on and improved. As a committee, we have already sought to learn lessons: we’ve recognised the benefits of working collaboratively with the House of Lords Constitution Committee to influence the UK Government, where a National Assembly for Wales committee, working on its own, may not be able to do so. This has highlighted to us the need for effective inter-institutional relations, and it’s one of the drivers for taking a closer look at these issues at a parliamentary level.

Our inquiry is split into two strands. The first will look at how inter-governmental and inter-parliamentary relations have evolved and impacted on the development of the devolution settlement. And to help us examine the journey we have taken, we’ve secured what I think is quite an impressive line-up of those who’ve been at the sharp end of shaping and working with devolution over the past 18 years. I think they will help us understand why sometimes devolution runs very smoothly, and at other times it runs into potholes—sometimes very publicly. We will look at the people and the personalities, yes, but also the mechanisms that are meant to oil the machine and keep the relationships between these institutions running smoothly. Indeed, we’ve already taken evidence from Lord Murphy. He spoke about the importance of building personal relationships and the challenge of changing mindsets in Whitehall, where that needs to happen, amongst other things.

However, it is not just about reflecting on the past. We must also gain a full understanding of how the existing structures and policies operate in practice. To this end, the second strand will explore the nature of relationships between the Welsh and UK Governments, how these relationships function and how they can be improved. It will look at improving opportunities for improved policy learning between Governments and Parliaments; at best practice in inter-institutional relations from across the UK that could be imported into the Welsh context; and at the nature of the relationships between the Welsh and UK legislatures and identify opportunities for effective inter-parliamentary working.

It is not our intention to produce just another report that will sit on a shelf and gather dust. The committee wants to make a real and direct impact on inter-institutional working by producing best practice principles and leading from the front in building those relationships. Other countries are managing this relationship successfully and we believe that there is plenty we can learn and adapt from good practice elsewhere.

Assembly Members are seeing the impact of inter-institutional working, both positive and negative, every day in relation to cross-border issues where the devolution lines can sometimes be blurred. That is why it is so important to engage with the public to understand the impact these relationships can have on our citizens. To this end we have trialled a small citizen panel—it’s an Assembly first—to help understand the perceptions of a cross-section of the public. We will also work hard to talk to organisations who do not usually engage with the Assembly and to find out why that is.

The importance of this work is also heightened by the constitutional implications for the devolution settlement of exiting the European Union. It is vital that the inter-institutional working needed to facilitate the smooth transition across the nations that make up the UK is fit for purpose. In doing so we need to ensure that we do not lose powers and competence that currently rest in Wales as we exit the EU. We hope that our inquiry will contribute to ensuring that is the case.

Devolution—moving power closer to the people we serve—is here to stay. As such, for Wales and the devolved nations and regions, but also for the good of the United Kingdom, we need to make sure it works effectively for all of our citizens. This inquiry will go to the very heart of those inter-institutional relationships, and point the way forward for improved working in the future.

This inquiry will take up much of our time in the months ahead. Alongside it, we also intend looking at the codification of Welsh law. As an initial step, we look forward to welcoming the Counsel General to a committee later in the spring to discuss his ideas in this area and decide how to take this work forward. And of course we will also undertake our core role: the scrutiny of all subordinate legislation made by the Welsh Government and any Bill introduced to the National Assembly. And in that latter role, we will continue to look at the quality of the legislation, particularly against the conclusions and the recommendations of our predecessor committee’s report, ‘Making Laws in Wales’.

We will continually ask: are we making good law and how can it be improved? As part of that, we will look at the balance of the legislation and how much policy is being left to be introduced by subordinate legislation, which of course cannot be amended and is therefore subject to less scrutiny. We will also monitor the use and extent of Henry VIII powers being sought by Ministers, the use of consequential provisions and, related to both, the procedures attached to the making of all subordinate legislation.

So, on this day we remember St David, who told us that the little things matter. Our committee will continue to look after the little but important things of our law and constitution, and by doing so, we might also glimpse the greater things that lie ahead of us as a democratic institution and as a nation.

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Thank you very much. David Melding.

David Melding (Conservative, South Wales Central)

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. Can I say, I think the Constitutional and Legislative Affairs Committee is a very happy committee to serve on because nearly all the issues we look at are about promoting good, clear government and scrutiny and we don’t really have to labour under the incubus of a heavy partisan load, very often, and division, which is really pleasing. We occasionally have slight disagreements—they’re usually in private session, but they are very, very rare.

I particularly welcome the emphasis that the Chair has given to the examination of intergovernmental working and interparliamentary working, because it does seem to me, as we see devolution mature, and, combined with that now, the challenge of Brexit in how it will change our patterns of governance, that means that a certain formality, perhaps, is required. We’re looking at that. We know that the First Minister has talked about a council of Ministers and some form of independent arbitration. These are very interesting ideas and they would change the constitutional arrangements considerably. But it’s not just about the possibility of UK frameworks being required and then being scrutinised—aspects of them, anyway, being scrutinised—in different legislatures, it’s also learning best practice, seeing where a particular challenge has been examined at great length in perhaps another Parliament, and then not having to do all that work ourselves, taking it, perhaps adapting it, and adding to it.

I think it’s these sorts of connections that are not always there. They tend to be strongest amongst officials, but surprisingly weak once you come to the political actors themselves. So, I think there’s a lot there that’s going to be of great practical benefit and something we would want to share with the other parts of the UK.

We’ve talked about codification and I’m glad to see the Counsel General here. I do welcome the Welsh Government’s commitment. It is going to require speed and effort, I think, because this window won’t remain open forever. But we could really deliver something that’s quite unique in the British isles, because we have this opportunity of not formally having had separate laws, now having our own primary law-making powers, and the ability to have a much clearer statute book is going to be open to us. It’s all about the clarity of legislation, which, in turn, gives the citizen much better access to legislation. I think I’ve made this comment before: there’s a lot of legislation in very, very profoundly important areas. We’re talking about housing, education, and health, where, in some of the aspects, if you want to find out what the law actually is, you need to hire a QC to give you an opinion. Now, that cannot be a good situation to be in. Incidentally, they don’t always come out with a clear view even then. So, I think we do have a great opportunity here to show a different way of working.

Finally—I don’t think those are the little things, actually, I think those are quite big things, but I suppose, when we talk about the little things, we’re looking at how secondary legislation is conducted, and it is important, because there’s usually good practice from the Welsh Government, but there is inconsistency as well. Sometimes, we are having to remind Welsh Government of the need to use affirmative procedures when things of real political significance and of concern to citizens are being decided, and not to rush through the process. The affirmative process, really, is a great protection for the Government as well as for the legislature, and its more routine use, I think, sometimes—you know, it should be the presumption, really, it shouldn’t be the exception to what is normally a negative procedure.

Finally, can I just say that the place of citizens—? I did refer briefly to the clarity of legislation, but I do think all Governments and legislatures in the UK and, in fact, the whole western world, will have to do a lot more work to engage citizens. It’s not enough just at elections or to hope that they leave comments on our websites. We’ve got to go out and road test some things directly with our citizens. But I very much welcome the Chair’s statement today.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Can I very much welcome David’s response to the statement, and can I just put on record my appreciation, not only of his approach to the work of the committee, but also of other Members as well? It is genuinely a committee that strives in a hugely non-partisan way to look at the effective operation of both our constitution and the legislation we see in front of us, and that does make it a strangely enjoyable experience in the way that we approach the thing. But also it’s certainly true as well, as I know is the same on other committees, that it benefits as well from the wealth of experience—not least, I have to say, having a former Chair of this committee as well who has seen a long history and evolution of these matters. It’s quite exciting as well, as David has flagged up, to see that the process doesn’t stop when we look at issues such as codification, and I agree with him, it’s great to see here the Counsel General sitting in as we discuss this, because, as we’ve mentioned on previous occasions, whilst we have to be very careful and considered in how we take pioneering work forward, the issue of codification done well and in a thoughtful way could mean that this legislature is at the absolute forefront of simplifying and clarifying live, real-time, updated legislation that is understandable, not simply to the barristers of this world, but to the people who live next door to me on my street as well, so they can pick it up and work with it, and that’s surely what we should be trying to do.

I welcome very much, as well—and I think he is quite right in saying this—the fact that we do usually see good practice from Welsh Government, and we’re not averse within the committee to recognising that in our reports. Sometimes, I know, Ministers will say, ‘Oh, you’ve been a bit harsh’ on this or that or the other, but we do recognise where there is good practice, and there is good practice within Welsh Government. Our role and, certainly, when I referred to the little things—curiously, it is the minutia that we focus on that actually drives that progressive improvement as well. So, to the Counsel General, or to the business manager in front of us, or other Ministers that might be listening, my soft apologies that occasionally we are the grit in the oyster, but, actually, that means that we move forward and we improve the legislation that we do have.

He mentioned as well—David mentioned as well—the issue of the focus that we have on the committee on the clarity of the law, and also the constitutional fitness for purpose. One of the things that I think’s particularly enjoyable on the committee, but also in the forward programme we’re looking at, is that, very often, to members of the public I think they regard a constitution and law as something that’s set in aspic, it’s done, and that you put it there on the shelf, and then once in a while lawyers and barristers and constitutional experts will take it down and refer you to the relevant point. But, actually, it is an interestingly evolving piece of work, and we can do things quite differently in Wales, and innovate a little bit, and I think that’s what we’re hoping to do here. So, I thank David for his contribution, and I look forward to other contributions here this afternoon.

David Lloyd (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

I thank the Chair of the Constitutional and Legislative Affairs Committee for his statement, and also welcome the way ahead. I also thank my fellow committee member, David Melding, for his kind words. Naturally, we are celebrating today St David’s Day and doing the little things, and we do do some little things such as scrutinising subordinate legislation—quite often that’s quite small. But, as David said, there are big things that can happen as well, and I’m thinking about all the debates that we had around the Wales Act—the Wales Bill as was.

Of course, we not only have the history of St David, but some 300 years afterwards we had Hywel Dda—King Hywel Dda; I’ve mentioned him previously in the context of this committee—and his laws of 1,000 years ago that gave women rights for the first time in the history of humanity. It’s important to note that, that we in Wales can create laws that are entirely innovative, and we have the opportunity once again, under the recent constitutional settlement, to create innovative laws.

Of course, a number of things have changed since Hywel Dda’s days, and I’m pleased that the Chair has set out the three main aims of the committee at present, and mentioned, as it states here, producing

best practice principles for inter-institutional working for constitutional legislation’

and also reflecting and building on the work of other legislatures in these islands

on inter-institutional working as it relates to broader policy areas’.

It’s very sensible, and we genuinely need to improve collaboration between the different parliaments on these islands. We can all talk about past events, when this place and committees in this place tended to be ignored quite often, and there is evidence that that is still happening, when we tried as a committee to obtain evidence when the Wales Bill was going through. So, I do support strongly the intention that has been outlined here by the Chair.

But would the Chair in his response agree with me that, in this question of co-ordination between parliaments in these islands, there’s a lot of work still to be done? Yes, we’ve established this inquiry, but we are starting from a very fragile place in terms of this Assembly in terms of the ways these islands are controlled or managed. So, there is a job of work to be done, and I would look for more comments from the Chair on that subject.

He also mentioned the way that we are going to engage with citizens, and that’s happened already. I’m looking forward to more meetings of that sort, because, at the end of the day—and I would hope that the Chair would be able to agree with me that there is work to be done here as well to explain, in an easy way, because in this committee we often deal with things that can appear to be difficult and dry. But, at the end of the day, we also need to simplify things so that citizens, and some of us, can understand what’s going on. That is, there are different policies in Wales compared with England and Scotland and so forth. We need to explain clearly to our citizens what has been devolved and what hasn’t been devolved, and the implications of the Wales Act, which is coming into force, and, of course, the basic difference between the Welsh Government and the Assembly. Now, evidently, for us here, we know the difference. But it’s not obvious out there, and very often it’s not obvious to those who write newspaper headlines either—the difference between the Government in this place and the Assembly itself as an institution.

To close, having mentioned two figures in history, namely St David and Hywel Dda, I was going to talk about Henry VIII as well, because, before anyone says that I talk about people who aren’t relevant to our legislation, unfortunately, Henry VIII still has a relevance that shouldn’t be there, I would argue, to our laws today through the overuse, I would say, of Henry VIII powers, which is still happening 500 years after that king left this planet. So, I would also like to see the Chair extend the debate about the use of Henry VIII powers in this place, and the way ahead in order to reduce the use of those powers. Thank you very much.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Diolch, Dai. If I can begin at the end with one regent and move on to another then, certainly the Henry VIII powers, we consistently—and in line with our predecessor committee as well—try to push back on the use of Henry VIII powers. It’s a constant dialogue with Ministers and with Government, but our principles are very firm on the committee, for very good reasons, that we want to minimise—. We recognise that there will be occasions where Henry VIII powers, in limited, restricted areas, might be appropriate, but we’re trying to constantly push back. We have to keep going on that journey, I think, and have the dialogue with Ministers on that. It is quite an interesting dialogue that we do have because, as I alluded to earlier, there is good practice. We do find, within some areas of legislation, and with some Ministers, that they do indeed try very hard to stamp down on the use of Henry VIII powers, and in other areas it unwinds a little bit. We’re going to have to keep on working on that. But I think the important thing, curiously, in respect of the way that we see this place working, and the transparency of this place, is that we have these discussions fairly and amicably. But there will be points of difference, I think, sometimes, from us as the Constitutional and Legislative Affairs Committee and Ministers, but we’ll keep on arguing, because I think there is a good point of principle that we shouldn’t be relying on Henry VIII powers or trying to avoid, wherever possible, the use of them. I’m sure that the former Chair of the committee would agree with that as well.

To turn for a moment to Hywel Dda, as Dai rightly points out, he was the original progressive legislator, innovator and pioneer. We sometimes forget in Wales that we can look back a long, long way to where we began a process of legislation and how we learned some of those lessons, and perhaps bring them forward now in terms of how we deal with those issues, such as equality issues. We were the nation that pioneered on that.

Dai mentioned that we genuinely need to improve the institutional working. I agree entirely and I would recommend to anybody to go back and have a look at Lord Murphy’s evidence session. Lord Murphy was, of course, twice the Secretary of State for Wales, but also the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland and many other roles within the Government. He has a long pedigree, and he himself has been on a journey, but one of the interesting things that he was alluding to was the difficulty sometimes of persuading Whitehall colleagues, also with long experience, of where we were in this devolution journey and so on. So, I’d recommend that.

But there is good practice. We do see good practice. We do see Ministers and committees working on a day-to-day basis, even on cross-border issues, very well. In other areas it’s not so good. What we must try and establish is: what is the best practice and how do we ensure that that best practice is absolutely the norm for every part of the Westminster-to-Wales relationship? I agree entirely when he says that there is a lot of work to be done. Yes, there is. This is why I think it’s an appropriate moment here, after we have finished with the new Wales Act, to reflect and also see how this looks forward. Why is that particularly appropriate? Also because we need to have a look now, as we have this situation where we are in this transition period as we look at article 50 and exiting the European Union: these mechanisms and relationships must be exemplary in the way that they function. So, I think that we can provide a service not only to Wales but also to the UK Government at the same time—and our devolved colleagues.

Finally, he mentioned citizens’ engagement. I entirely agree—a huge body of work here to do for us. I think, probably of all of the committees, because we are not a thematic committee, because we are not something that, very often, is easily translatable to the experiences of my neighbours and so on—it’s not health, it’s not social care, it’s not the buses, it’s not whatever—and yet, if we do not have the right processes in place, much of this good work in those themed areas can fall asunder. So, we have to find a way. I would pay tribute to our team that underpins our work as committee members—the clerks, the researchers, the communications people—for their efforts to try and find those innovative ways, such as the citizens’ panel, where we can go forward and work on it to find ways that we can—. As is often said, people don’t talk about this constitutional stuff in the Dog and Duck, wherever that fictional Dog and Duck is. What we need to find are the clever ways in which citizens can engage with this, because it really does matter. We need to get this right. So, Dai, thank you very much for those comments.

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

And finally and very briefly—and that means briefly from both of you—David Rowlands.

David Rowlands (UKIP, South Wales East)

I particularly like the Chair’s idea of a panel made up of members from the public, but, of course, the strength in that panel will be in its make-up. It would be very detrimental if it had some political bias. So, would the Chair be able to give us any idea as to how he feels that panel would actually be selected?

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Yes, indeed. David, thank you very much. Very, very briefly, we’ve already trialled this, and our team that supports us have brought together people with different experiences from the community sector, the private sector, from different parts of Wales, different age groups, different genders—they’ve tried to experiment with a mix of people and it’s not the usual. It’s actually people who don’t normally engage.

Now, I think there’s work to do on that, and if he has ideas—. But what it’s not to be is the great and good. This is a citizens panel. So, what we’re looking to do is find those people out there who don’t normally engage with us to come forward and tell us what we’re doing right and wrong. Thank you.

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Thank you very much. You see—it can be done when we have a gentle reminder, can’t it? So, thank you very much.

6. 5. Plaid Cymru Debate: Economic Prosperity, the National Health Service and Education

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Item 5 is the Plaid Cymru debate on economic prosperity, the national health service and education. I call on Rhun ap Iorwerth to move the motion. Rhun.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Ynys Môn)

Thank you very much, Deputy Presiding Officer. It’s a pleasure to present this motion on 1 March, St David’s Day, and it’s a pleasure to wish everyone a happy St David’s Day—here in the Chamber and outwith the Chamber.

Some may ask what role there is for patron saint days in the twenty-first century, but across the world, people and nations do use these days to celebrate and promote their nations and nationalities, and long may that continue. It’s an opportunity to celebrate successes and also to consider the state of the nation. Today, we are using our St David’s Day debate to look to our past, our present and our future, and to particularly address the areas of the economy, health and education.

We need honesty in terms of how things are today. Of course, we’re not looking back with a sense of nostalgia in terms of how things were for many Welsh citizens over the past century or two. And to distance ourselves from another recent political slogan, it’s not about ‘making Wales great again’—that’s not our theme here today. We are, rather, looking at where we are as a nation, clearly stating that we believe that Wales can do better.

Wales has a very proud history. There may be a divergence of opinion among Members on the significance of various elements of our history, but certainly, as a modern nation, we can turn to chapters in our history in order to inspire our future. On St David’s Day, we can tell the people of Wales that this is the story of our nation. Our predecessor generations innovated; they created anew, they devised things; and they responded to the situation of Wales and the world as it was at that time. In health, we are talking about a Welshman creating the NHS and doing so within a British context in those years after the second world war, just as the industrial revolution was nurtured here in Wales, again, in a British or imperial context, even—these aren’t contexts that you will hear Plaid Cymru celebrating, necessarily, but that was the context at that time.

That context has now changed. Perhaps I should add that it has changed to a great extent as a result of the response to those contexts of the past. We are partially self-governing now as our nation continues on our constitutional journey. That journey, I’m proud to say, is continuing, and I’m sure that St David himself would agree that it’s an exciting journey, and a journey full of possibilities.

Our motion today mentions our contribution as a nation to the industrial revolution. We were one of the first industrial economies in the world. That experience of industrialisation was traumatic for many workers, and citizens more generally at the time. Poverty, ill health and environmental damage were clear characteristics of the period, but ultimately that was the start of the journey to a more prosperous future. It prepared the way for innovation and for technological developments and innovation. Those difficult circumstances of the time actually engendered battles for workers’ rights and for the right to vote—battles that laid the foundations to an extent that allowed us to build the democracy that we currently have, and the fact that we here today are in our own national Parliament.

There were challenges for the Welsh language also, naturally, although Gwynfor Evans noted that it wasn’t industrialisation that killed the Welsh language; it was the policies of central governments that were responsible for that through the education system and the psychological condition of the people of Wales. Gwynfor noted that the Welsh language had disappeared from the rural areas of the south-east way before the urban areas, with the language alive in areas such as Merthyr Tydfil and Aberdare, and similar towns across Glamorgan and Gwent, for decades after industrialisation.

Today, of course, it’s good to see Welsh medium education prospering again in those areas. Policy is crucially important to drive that growth. I hope we all here do welcome that growth. There’s been a change in psychology, the psychology that Gwynfor mentioned, although there are still some people who find it difficult to find that new national confidence that we all need.

I’ll move on to health and education. As the industrial revolution was nurtured here in Wales, the national health service was also born here. We know how Aneurin Bevan got the vision and the courage to develop the NHS—yes, a prominent member in the history of the Labour Party and the Labour movement, but one of the giants of our history as a nation in terms of the development of healthcare. We in Plaid Cymru believe that that vision can now truly be achieved through our National Assembly and through the Welsh Government. But that vision by Bevan from our past must continue to inspire us now.

In education, we have a long tradition of high rates of literacy among our population, and an education network that, a century a more ago, England was envious of. More recently, Wales innovated in secondary education and Wales was the home of the first comprehensive school. I’m very proud that that was in my constituency, and that was Holyhead High School. Very appropriately, I will take this opportunity to congratulate that school and other schools in the town, and everyone else who were part of the event, for the first St David’s Day parade to be staged in Holyhead—I’m very sorry not to be able to attend today.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Ynys Môn)

I’m very pleased to say that Anglesey was the first education authority to turn entirely to comprehensive education at the beginning of the 1950s. So, again, there are successes and innovation in education that we can be proud of.

Lywydd, rwyf wedi paentio llun, gobeithio, o orffennol Cymru. Y cwestiwn yn awr yw sut rydym yn dysgu o’r profiad hwnnw ac yn adeiladu ar yr etifeddiaeth honno er mwyn paentio gweledigaeth o’r dyfodol a gwella perfformiad a rhagolygon mewn meysydd allweddol? Mae angen i ni allu troi at ein hanes, nid i ddod o hyd i esgusodion am berfformiad gwael, ond fel ysbrydoliaeth i wella ein perfformiad. Er mwyn ein presennol a’n dyfodol, rydym yn dweud, ‘Gall Cymru wneud yn well’.

Mae’n ymddangos fel ddoe, ond 20 mlynedd yn ôl, roedd gan fwyafrif bach o bobl yng Nghymru ddigon o hyder i bleidleisio ‘ie’ i’r syniad eu bod yn byw mewn gwlad sy’n haeddu cael llywodraethu ei hun. Ond hyd yn hyn, nid yw Llywodraethau datganoledig wedi gallu, er enghraifft, codi ein gwerth ychwanegol gros o gymharu â gweddill y DU. Nid ydynt ychwaith wedi meddu ar y pwerau neu’r uchelgais—y ddau o bosibl. Ar gyfer y wlad a welodd gymaint o arloesi technolegol, ac a arferai fod yn brif allforiwr adnoddau’r byd, ai dyma’r gorau y gallwn ei wneud?

Pam ein bod mewn sefyllfa ar Ddydd Gŵyl Dewi lle na all pobl yn y wlad hon ymfalchïo yn ein lefel o ffyniant ac yn ein lefelau o gyfoeth? Gallwn weld y dangosyddion hynny sy’n gyson yn peri pryder ar iechyd a’r safleoedd PISA ar gyfer addysg. Mae lefelau tlodi yn dal i fod yn enbyd o uchel. Ni allwn edrych yn ddiffuant i lygaid pobl yng Nghymru a dweud, ‘Ydym, rydym yn cyrraedd ein potensial’. Ond gadewch i ni symud tuag at amser pan fyddwn yn gallu gwneud hynny yn y dyfodol.

Mae 20 mlynedd yn ifanc i ddemocratiaeth, ond mae’n ddigon hir i ni gael Llywodraeth gyda gweledigaeth glir a gweledigaeth uchelgeisiol ynglŷn â ble rydym yn mynd. Roeddwn yn falch o faniffesto Plaid Cymru ar gyfer yr etholiad y flwyddyn diwethaf—yn falch o’i syniadau ac yn falch o’i arloesedd. Mae’n ddyletswydd ar bob un ohonom yma i arloesi ac i ysbrydoli.

Gydag amser yn brin, fe drof at welliant y Llywodraeth. Ni fyddwn yn ei gefnogi, nid yn unig ar yr egwyddor ei fod yn dileu rhan fawr o’n cynnig, ond yr hyn a welaf yw gwelliant sy’n cael gwared ar dystiolaeth, ar ddata, am rai o’r heriau sy’n ein hwynebu mewn gwirionedd. Ni ddylai llywodraethau gilio rhag realiti, ac mewn gwirionedd, mae gwneud hynny’n rhwystro’r ffordd rhag gwella perfformiad.

Edrychaf ymlaen at y ddadl heddiw. Wrth ddathlu ein nawddsant, hyderaf ein bod i gyd yn awyddus i ddathlu’r gorau o Gymru—y gorau o’n ddoe a’n heddiw. Ond gydag asesiad gonest o’r sefyllfa yr ydym ynddi heddiw, gadewch i ni adeiladu gweledigaeth go iawn ar gyfer ein hyfory hefyd, ac na foed i ni byth dderbyn unrhyw beth nad yw’n cyrraedd ein potensial llawn.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

I have selected the amendment to the motion, and I call on the leader of the house to formally move amendment 1 tabled in her name.

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Formally.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Jeremy Miles.

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

Diolch, Lywydd. I wanted to pick up on one of the points in the motion that drew attention to the gross value added performance of Wales against the UK average. It seems to me that what we’re looking at here is actually a fundamental question of the inequality of the UK as a country—it’s uniquely unequal in comparison with other countries, for example, within the European Union.

We heard at the Brexit committee earlier this week that the performance of some of the European Union countries, on the basis of their membership of the EU, might have been faster because of the fact that we are, in Wales, a comparatively small part of a larger whole and our economy is so different, in some ways, from the UK in general. But I think it is worth bearing in mind that those comparisons of GVA only take us so far, and they’re a very crude tool for comparing the kind of economy that we want in Wales.

Actually, London and the south-east are the only two parts of the UK that exceed the average, which is a startling fact if you think about it. They’re the only two parts of the UK’s economy that are stronger than the average. So, I think that tells us some of the picture, but it doesn’t tell us the whole story.

I wanted to pick up on the idea in Rhun ap Iorwerth’s speech that is really about the idea of Wales exporting ideas, if you like, to other parts of the UK and other parts of the world. And the NHS, for example, is one of those, I suppose, exports that we are all proudest of here and across Wales.

There are still things that we can and do export to the world, and some of those are important ideas. I want to touch on a few of those today, and I think all of them play into the idea of the sort of economy that we want to have in Wales. I think that rather than just looking at GVA, we should look at the kind of assets that we’ve got in Wales and build an economy that reflects our assets. One of those assets, and it’s mentioned in the motion, is the idea of the blue economy and the green economy, and I think we must focus on that as one of our key principles in our future economy.

We have unique assets that other countries can’t compete with, in terms of the tidal reach that we have and the long coast that we have. We have the prospect in the tidal lagoon not just of green energy but of a massive economic opportunity for not just south Wales but the whole of Wales—a classic example of how the blue economy can become a reality. It’s already worth about £2.1 billion to the Welsh economy, and that’s really before we’ve done very much in terms of marine renewables in particular. We’ve made good innovative strides, but there’s much more potential there for us. And I hope and expect that we’ll see a marine plan from the Welsh Government that commits to focusing on that sector.

The second asset I want to talk about is the notion of well-being and the innovation that we have in Wales in the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015. We are genuinely groundbreaking in that piece of legislation, and that is an idea that we can export to the world. But the challenge for us, I think, now is finding ways for that to be a catalyst for economic development in itself. What is our analysis of how there is an economic opportunity that comes from having long-termism and sustainability absolutely at the heart of our economy and of our society? We’ve already started to do work to foster the circular economy where we recycle and so forth. There is much more that we can do in that area over time to create a new kind of productivity where we look at assets as things that we have for the long term, not just as disposable items.

And the last idea that I think has potential for us to export is the idea of a distributed economy—one where, actually, more of the wealth and more of the economic activity is spread throughout our country. I held a forum in Neath recently for discussing the economy, as I mentioned earlier, and one of the key issues that came up in that was the idea of how we can improve our local supply chains, and how we can work between the public sector and the private sector to boost our local economies. That isn’t really an agenda that has developed much in other parts of the UK, and I think there’s a real opportunity for us in Wales to do that.

So, I think we can’t run away from the idea of GVA as an important indicator of the health of the economy—obviously, we want an economy where growth is at the heart of it—but I’d encourage us to debate much broader tests for the success of our economy that reflect well-being and other measures. We need to look at our assets and build an economy that reflects the fantastic assets that we have in Wales.

Llyr Gruffydd (Plaid Cymru, North Wales)

I’m going to take the opportunity, too, to celebrate our successes as it is our national day today, and to take inspiration, as we’ve heard, from our history in tackling many of the challenges facing us today. The Member for Neath talked about our assets. Well, one of the major assets that we have as a nation, of course, is our people, and investing in our people, for example through the education system, is something that’s important for us, but it’s also something that we have an honourable tradition of doing, too. We have a history of innovation and enterprise in education—as much as any other sector that we will discuss today, I would argue.

We need only mention the name of Griffith Jones, Llanddowror, back at the beginning of the eighteenth century, to understand and appreciate that innovation—Griffith Jones and his circular schools educated children during the day and adults at evening, with those then going on to teach others. That cascading element of learning reached a point where there were 0.25 million people who had become literate, out of a population of less than 0.5 million. So, more than half the population were literate. And by the time that Griffith Jones passed away in 1761, Wales had the highest literacy level in the world, so much so that Catherine the Great of Russia sent a commissioner to Wales to learn lessons, and to see whether the system could be adapted for Russia. That may correspond not to us asking the OECD to come to tell us whether we’re on the right path, but to Wales telling the OECD what they should be telling other nations. That’s where we want to be, and, of course, that’s where we have been, in that specific chapter of our history anyway.

In 1889, then, the Welsh Intermediate Education Act was passed—legislation introduced by Welsh Members in Westminster that was revolutionary, because it meant that children, whatever their economic background or their academic ability, could attend a secondary school for the first time. We had to wait another 10 years before similar legislation was introduced for England. The success of the Act and the county schools was clear, with the historian K.O. Morgan—Lord Morgan—noting that,

Erbyn y Rhyfel Byd Cyntaf, gorchuddiwyd Cymru gan rwydwaith o gant o ysgolion uwchradd “sirol”, ac roedd ganddi system addysg uwchradd a oedd yn amlwg yn rhagflaenu’r un yn Lloegr.

The success of the Act could also be seen in the fact that secondary schools in England were few and far between where there was no teacher from Wales during the first half of the twentieth century, a time when Wales was exporting teachers. ‘A nation of teachers and preachers’ was the description at the time, and it would be no bad thing if we succeeded in recreating that today.

But, of course, our history these days is different: we have seen decline, unfortunately, not the progress that I’m sure each and every one of us would’ve been eager to see happening. We have seen the recent PISA results. The Estyn annual report also highlights the positives—we should acknowledge that: the outcomes of 16 per cent of secondary schools in Wales are excellent, higher than any time since 2010. But those that are not up to standard was also up to 14 per cent.

Now, the history of the development of education is very interesting, of course, and is one that we should take great pride in, but we have to acknowledge, hope and be confident that we are on the verge of another exciting time in the development of a Welsh education system, with many programmes in place to reform the education system, as we have discussed in this place many times. It’s not inevitable that Wales will have a system that is seen as falling behind other nations. We have led the way in the past and we can do so again. We will need to ensure, of course, that the Government has a clear vision and a clear focus on delivery in terms of the potential that we have, and I am one who supports the Government’s approach at the moment, although there may be some disagreement as to how certain elements are to be rolled out in terms of timing and so on. But, essentially, I am confident that we are moving in the right direction.

The OECD report praised the move away from introducing unconnected events. What we need to do now, of course, is to strengthen the vision for the long term, to continue on the path on which we are travelling. But in so doing, of course, we must ensure that the reforms in the pipeline are implemented effectively and ensure that everyone—from the teachers in the classroom to the consortia and the education authorities and everyone else—do understand where we’re going and buy into the vision, that everyone is clear about their role in that context, and that they know what their contribution is to the project and how all of that work comes together. But in doing that, we can be confident that everyone will be working in the same direction and that we will achieve our aims.

Paul Davies (Conservative, Preseli Pembrokeshire)

Thank you, Presiding Officer. I’m pleased to participate in this important debate this afternoon. I can confirm, from the outset, that the Welsh Conservatives will support this motion.

Of course, we on this side of the Chamber recognise that Wales faces a number of challenges when it comes to our health, our education system and out economy, and I’ll be focusing on the future.

As the second point of the motion says, performance in these policy areas clearly shows that the Welsh Government must be more creative and collaborative in developing policies for our public services. If we are serious about transforming the economy, we must support our small businesses, which are the backbone of our economy, and we must invest in key infrastructure projects.

The Welsh Government must recognise the potential of SMEs to grow the Welsh economy and create the conditions necessary for more enterprise here in Wales. Only recently, some businesses have suffered terribly because of increases in business rates. Businesses need to know whether they actually qualify for some of the additional funding announced by the Welsh Government.

I appreciate that the Welsh Government is going to look at the business rates system in the future, but the Government can take action now on this issue. For example, it could split the business rate multiplier in order to provide a level playing field for small businesses to compete with larger businesses.

SMEs also need support in accessing finance, and I believe that the Welsh Government must develop a regional approach to enable businesses to gain access to funding in order to reflect their local economies.

We must think much more creatively if we’re going to transform the economy, and creating a series of regional high-street banks across Wales would certainly localise access to finance for small businesses. Proposals like this could be submitted fairly quickly and would have a positive effect on the local and national economy in Wales, and I hope that the Welsh Government looks carefully at these kinds of policies and finds a better way to support small businesses across Wales.

Of course, there are also fundamental problems in the health service in Wales. The Welsh Government continues to adopt a one-size-fits-all approach to providing health services across Wales, which is failing Welsh patients. The Government must move away from its centralising agenda for healthcare services. We need to see policies that protect local services and we need to see stronger services across Welsh hospitals.

Centralising services does not necessarily mean better services when it comes to meeting healthcare needs and the Welsh Government must reverse this worrying trend and start developing more integrated local services within our communities. The Welsh Government must expand the role of community hospitals across Wales in order to help reduce the pressure on our hospital units, which are already under enormous strain. I also believe that the health service must be more accountable to those it serves. In my opinion, this would lead to improvements by giving patients a voice at the heart of decisions made in the health service. Indeed, establishing local accountability and transferring decisions relating to health services away from the central government in Cardiff Bay and putting that authority back in the hands of local communities, in my opinion, would improve our local health services.

In terms of our education system, I’m sure that all Members in the Chamber agree that our children deserve better. I appreciate that the Cabinet Secretary is embarking on a broad range of measures in relation to the education system in Wales, but as things stand, the figures show that Wales is simply not where we want it to be in terms of international benchmarks.

Going forward, there must be greater ambition and leadership from the Welsh Government and that must be passed on to teachers throughout Wales. A recent report by Estyn stated that a significant lack of strong leadership was holding teachers and children back from achieving their potential. Thus, the Welsh Government needs to focus more on improving teaching standards and developing a strategy to target and develop leadership issues in the education system.

As part of a campaign to empower teachers, the Welsh Government must establish a national formula with money being directly targeted at schools to put all learners, whether in rural or urban settings, on a more equal footing. By doing this, it will release more resources for the classroom. Directly funding schools would actually drive power down to the teachers and headteachers who know what is best for their schools, giving them more flexibility and control over the priorities of their schools. And the Welsh Government must provide the tools for schools to be more creative in implementing the curriculum, for example, by making schools entrepreneurial hubs by establishing social enterprises in each school to improve the business skills of future generations.

In closing, Llywydd, the Welsh Government must be much more innovative and creative in order to improve the lives of people in Wales. Continuing with the same old approaches will not bring improvements to our health service, or our education system and will not grow our economy. Therefore, I urge the Welsh Government to act and to be much more innovative.

David Lloyd (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

It is also a pleasure for me to participate in this debate on St David’s Day, reflecting the fact that we’re commemorating the death of Dewi on this day in the year 589—some 1,500 years ago. This nation’s history goes back a long way and it’s still reflected in our language, our art and our faith. And, yes, it is a day of national pride and I’m going to follow the same route. I reminded you of some of the pillars of our history in the previous debate, and I might as well continue where I left off in the last debate.

But, specifically in health, over the years before the days of the NHS, Wales had innovated in this area: Meddygon Myddfai—the Medics of Myddfai—were innovative in this area in medieval times. Myddfai is a small village now, but many hundreds of years ago, it led the medical world in these isles. Much of that history has been lost, but there was huge innovation happening hundreds of years ago in medicine here.

A little later on—about a century and a half ago—we see Hugh Owen Thomas and his nephew, Robert Jones, innovating in the area of bone surgery, and Robert Jones is recognised these days on a global level as the father of orthopaedics. He shaped orthopaedics initially and he is recognised globally as the leader and founder of orthopaedics.

Of course, we have heard the history of the creation of the NHS and we continue to be extremely proud of the contribution that Wales made to the health service. And, of course, if we come forward a little further again, in the year 2007, Professor Sir Martin Evans of Cardiff University won a Nobel prize in medicine on the basis of his innovative research in stem cells and DNA.

Sometimes it’s difficult for people in our nation to think, ‘Well, what’s Wales ever contributed? I don’t know what’s going on. Who’s been innovative and who’s been confident and successful?’ Well, there’s a list and I could go on, but naturally I can’t go on all afternoon, so I’m going to stop listing names now. But it’s enough to note that there are very exciting developments happening now in medicine in our universities and in our medical schools. Our medical schools—we have two now, one in Cardiff and one in Swansea—are producing bright junior doctors. Of course, they could produce more. At the moment, less than 20 per cent of our medical students in Welsh medical schools come from Wales. No other country works in that way. Over half of the medical students in Scotland come from Scotland and over 80 per cent of medical students in medical schools in England come from England, and yet we are operating at a level of 12 per cent of students in Cardiff and Swansea coming from Wales. Well, we’re supposed to be producing doctors for our future, but we’re not producing enough and that is why we need a new medical school in Bangor too, so that we can produce more bright junior doctors for our nation. Yes, we are proud of our health service, but the system is under huge pressure. We need to employ more doctors and nurses and so on, and we need to train more doctors and nurses in the first place, and, of course, we need to provide the most modern diagnostic technology, which is available—[Interruption.]—but it is exceptionally expensive.

And, of course, we need an alternative vision of a health service that is focused on the community—[Interruption.] Yes, a community that is digitally connected. The Minister is clearly innovating in that area too. [Laughter.] That reminds us that we can do great things in our health service digitally too. I’m pleased that the Minister reminded us of that, because that also assists primary care. And I want to see more specialists in our hospitals coming into the community to work, to break down these barriers between hospitals and primary care, and—yes, it’s been said a number of times—health and social care collaborating more closely.

So, to conclude, yes, we are proud of our health service. We are proud of all of the innovation that has happened in the past, which is happening now, and will continue to happen in the future. We are determined to keep our comprehensive health service and to keep it in the public domain here in Wales. But we do need changes to provide the best possible services for our people, using the talent that we clearly have. Thank you.

Neil Hamilton (UKIP, Mid and West Wales)

Well, I’m very happy to support this motion of Plaid Cymru today, and my party will be voting for it. I hope that leads to a spontaneous outbreak of rejoicing on Plaid Cymru benches. I’m going to be consensual today in a rather different way from yesterday, as it’s our national day. Although St David’s message to us all isn’t, perhaps, entirely to our taste, because the monastic rule of St David was that monks should pull the plough without draught animals, drink only water, eat only bread with salt and herbs, and spend their evenings in prayer, reading or writing, and have no personal possessions. So, Wales would be a very ascetic place if we followed that prescription exactly.

I agree with everything that was said by Rhun ap Iorwerth in opening his debate today, and it’s right, I think, to look back to Wales’s history and what we’ve given to the world. I’m sad to say that in my lifetime the history has been rather different, at least in relative terms: we’ve been a nation in decline economically although, as I fully acknowledge and indeed glory in, it’s been a nation that has grown culturally and in terms of the feeling of nationhood. Although I am a firm believer in the United Kingdom, I feel myself also to be a proud Welshman, and I think one can have two kinds of nationhood that exist side by side with one another. I would also say that if Wales were to become an independent nation politically, there’s no reason whatever why it could not be one of the most successful nations in the world, because scale is not everything in this respect. [Interruption.] Singapore, for example, is a minute speck in the ocean, and it all depends upon—[Interruption.] It all depends upon the kind of economy that can be developed, which, of course, depends upon the political environment. I’m sad to say that, on the current manifesto of Plaid Cymru, it would be unlikely to replicate the success of Singapore.

But the Plaid Cymru motion today is quite right to point out Wales’s relative decline in recent years, economically. Wales does have only 71 per cent of the GVA of the United Kingdom. That compares with 93 per cent in Scotland, and Northern Ireland, which previously, 20 years ago, was below Wales on that table, is today above us. We are at the bottom of the table. So, we’ve had 20 years of decline, sad to say, under a Labour Government here in Cardiff and, for most of that time, a Labour Government in London as well. In my region, west Wales and the Valleys, in fact, it’s only 63.3 per cent of the GVA of the United Kingdom, which is even worse.

Although I’ve taken a lot of stick from the First Minister and others for having been a Minister in Conservative Governments in the 1980s and 1990s, actually, in 1989, Wales had 89 per cent of the GVA of the United Kingdom, and so we’ve gone back from 89 per cent to 71 per cent under the great excoriaters of Thatcherism of the 1980s. So, every year since 1996, Wales has either flat-lined or gone backwards in this table. So, it is a record of unrelieved gloom, I’m afraid, and failure.

But, looking to the future, the future doesn’t actually lie with Government. Governments can’t do more for people than they can do for themselves. They can affect the environment within which people live and work, of course. But we have been coping, for the whole of my lifetime, with the decline of major extractive and manufacturing industries, which couldn’t actually be reversed, although it could be slowed down, and today we’ve been discussing the current problems of Ford in Bridgend. Where we have large employers who dominate one particular area, we are at risk, of course, of major changes in global demand or conditions. The future must lie in the promotion of enterprise with small businesses, as Paul Davies was pointing out in his speech, and also the technologies of the future.

Today, on the front page of ‘The Times’, there’s a story about how Sir James Dyson is going to fund a new technology campus, just by junction 17 on the M4. He himself lives by junction 16 on the M4. This is less than an hour from Cardiff, and yet where are the equivalents in Wales? These are the kinds of industries of the future that the Government should be encouraging and doing its best to attract and to support. So, let’s, yes, glory in our past, but let’s have a Government that will produce a future in which future generations can glory when they look back.

Simon Thomas (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

Well, in fact, I did want to give a very uplifting view of Wales’s future and how we can, for all the wonders that we’ve achieved in the past, as teachers and preachers, become a nation of scientists and technologists and move our nation onwards. I think that I want to describe us as an energy nation. One of the earliest ecological poems in the Welsh language, ‘Torri Coed Glyn Cynon’, talks of the cutting of the woods of the Cynon valley in order to feed the early industrial revolution, the medieval ironworks of that time. So, we’ve been an energy nation for a long period of time.

But the question we must face now is: how can we be an energy nation once again and how can we become the California of the Atlantic? Because we’ve got the beaches, we’ve got the surf, we’ve got the film studios, some of us have got the beach bodies—[Laughter.] Definitely. I can see the Cabinet Secretary for communities nodding his head at that. But, more importantly, we have universities, we have research, we have a history of technological development that has already been alluded to in several contributions, and we have huge energy resources still, no longer underground—no longer underground in a safe and sustainable way, anyway—but in our seas, in our air, on our hills and in the sun. It’s how we marry our latest understanding of technology with the challenges of things like climate change and the challenges of energy security that I think will give Wales a unique selling point for the next generations, and I think will make Wales that successful small nation, whether we labour still under devolution or become an independent nation.

We can build on some of those building blocks already and I think all of us would want to see Wales become as self-sufficient as possible in terms of our use of energy, in terms of our economy, in terms of the way we develop our own skills and our own people, whether it’s in medicine or in technology or in the education field. And we’re way behind. Scotland already produces, for example, 32 per cent of its electricity from renewables. We are at 10 per cent. One of the countries with the most rich renewable resource, both in the sea and on land, is one of the ones that’s actually lagging behind the United Kingdom in terms of production. Since the early 1970s, we’ve had another little revolution in Wales, because Wales is a nation of competing political narratives. One of the interesting narratives that happened in the 1970s in Wales is the small country, the small nation, kind of approach—people coming into Wales to look for self-sufficiency, living on the land, some crazy ideas and some crazy ways of living from time to time, but leading to ideas, like I said, of alternative technology and a real re-evaluation of how we produce our energy and how we go forward. So, we’re at the cusp at the moment. We still have very poisonous nitrogen oxide emissions from coal-burning power stations. We still have old technology. We have old communication links and old energy grids that are actually holding us back from this new energy future. But we also have the skills and the ideas to do it. I think it turns around three things that I’d like to see us, very imminently, doing here in Wales.

First of all, I would like us to examine how we can establish a Welsh energy company. The Welsh Government has been quite warm of late to this idea, which originated with Plaid Cymru, and I hope that we can work with the Welsh Government and anyone who’s interested in trying to explore the ability for a Welsh energy company to be established in Wales. So, we’ll make the best use and keep those skills and resources within our nation.

A second thing that I think we could look at very seriously in Wales is hydrogen. The Congress in America celebrates hydrogen cell day. Why are they celebrating hydrogen cell day? Because they say that they produced the hydrogen cell economy—particularly in California, as it happens. It originated in 1838, here in Swansea—in Swansea, with William Grove, an absolute genius, if you examine his history: a barrister who became a scientist, and a leading scientist at that, and developed the hydrogen cell technology that is still, in principle, that which can drive our trains now, our public transport, commercial vehicles, and, perhaps more for the private vehicles and private cars, looking at where we develop an infrastructure around electric cars and electric vehicles. These two go very well together. These technologies—electric vehicles and hydrogen technology—go very well together with renewable energy, because it’s a storage system that you can use in your transport system that helps smooth out the infrequencies that we get, particularly in renewable energy, and particularly with wind.

But, of course, the other thing that we can do—the third thing—has already been alluded to. It is the tidal lagoon. So, we turn to Swansea once again, where, instead of losing, as we did 150 years ago, that technology that was originated in Swansea and ended up in California, let’s make sure that this technology, which can be trialled in Swansea as the pathfinder project, as recommended by the Hendry review, isn’t lost to us and does become the technology that we now take forward and learn from, and use the skills from.

So, to conclude, as is traditional on this day, with some words of Dewi Sant, when he told us, ‘gwnewch y pethau bychain—do ye the little things in life’, and to say that’s a load of rubbish. Like the Californians say, don’t sweat the small things. Let’s do the big things—let’s do the lagoon, hydrogen and electricity.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

I call on the leader of the house, Jane Hutt.

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Well, I’d like to start by thanking Plaid Cymru for tabling this motion for debate in the Chamber today and returning the Welsh Government’s good wishes for a happy St David’s Day. It does provide us with the opportunity to talk about our performance across these three key areas of the economy, education and health, and I welcome that opportunity. I also think it’s apt. As Rhun ap Iorwerth has said in his opening remarks, it’s about looking at where we are today, and that’s appropriate on St David’s Day.

But, looking back over the last few years against the backdrop of the recession and austerity budgets forced upon us by the UK Government, it’s clear that Wales’s economy has grown. There’s close to a record number of people in work, and the employment rate has increased more than the UK average over the last 12 months. The unemployment rate has also decreased more in Wales than the UK average over the same time. Last year, this Welsh Government helped to create and protect 37,500 jobs through intelligent and effective partnerships with businesses in Wales. We have also seen real gains in educational improvement. The overall 2016 GCSE results showed another strong performance, with two thirds of our learners achieving at least A* to C, with an increase in the top grades.

In terms of the health service, we recognise that some waiting times are too long, but referral-to-treatment waiting times are now 30 per cent lower than the high point in August 2015, and diagnostic waiting times are 63 per cent lower than the high point of January 2014. We expect to see further reductions before the end of this month. We accept there’s always room for more improvement, but we are making significant progress in these areas.

In moving the Government amendment, I’m pleased to provide perhaps a more comprehensive overview of Wales’s position. The unemployment rate in Wales has fallen to 4.4 per cent, lower than the UK average. The recently published OECD healthcare quality indicator showed that Wales is performing at a similar level or better than other countries in the UK on the majority of indicators. The 2015-16 GCSE exam results for Wales show the main performance measure has increased each year since records began in 2006-07, while the attainment gap between pupils eligible for free schools meals and their fellow pupils is closing. Yesterday, the OECD, of course, published its rapid assessment of education in Wales, and we discussed this report in the Chamber—the statement from the Cabinet Secretary. But the OECD provided us with independent evidence on where we have improved, and they point to progress made to support the professional learning of teachers, to increase school-to-school collaborations, the rationalisation of school grants, the development of a national schools categorisation system, and the steps taken to develop a new curriculum fit for the twenty-first century. Llyr Gruffydd spoke of the historical landmarks in our history of education in Wales, and, yes, the OECD does identify areas where we need to strengthen further. But this independent analysis does show that we’re on the right track. We’ve laid the foundations for a self-improving system that will grow from strength to strength.

In responding to some of the other points in this debate, the Welsh Government’s approach to delivering our commitments in Wales is key, so our programme for government, ‘Taking Wales Forward’, shows how we are driving improvement in the Welsh economy and public services, and our aim is to deliver a Wales that is prosperous and secure, healthy and active, ambitious and learning, united and connected. But, to achieve this, we have to set out where we have the levers to intervene—where the Welsh Government can intervene to maximise the impact, and how our key commitments will contribute. We’ve set out these areas, which we will focus on, that allow us to make the greatest impact. Ambitious measures, but aimed at—. These measures are aimed at making a difference for everyone at every stage in their lives.

We will use the opportunity given to us by the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015 to work differently, to develop innovative solutions to challenges that we face, to help us to maximise our impact in these uncertain times—a new kind of productivity, as Jeremy Miles has said, based on sustainable investment. We recognise the potential of the blue and green economy. We’re committed to supporting new and existing enterprises in Wales to take advantage of major marine industry and energy infrastructure—again, as Jeremy Miles has highlighted, and, indeed, Simon Thomas, unique opportunities that we have in Wales to take us forward—I think it’s being talked about as Wales’s next industrial revolution—such as the proposed tidal lagoon, and isn’t it great when we all agree, as we did in a debate only a couple of weeks ago, and send such a strong message to the UK Government that we want to take up that challenge here in Wales?

Simon Thomas is right: the energy sector is a key sector for the Welsh economy as we move forward. It’s based on our natural resources, the long tradition of generation, and, of course, the pipeline for future investment. This links directly to education and skills and the central role they play in improving Wales’s economy and productivity. Our education system must provide learners with the skills, knowledge and attributes they need for the modern world to enable us to compete and our young people to succeed for their own benefit and for the benefit of Wales.

This is why we are making these changes to the education system, aimed at realising a world-class curriculum geared to equip our children and young people to thrive amid the challenges and opportunities of the twenty-first century.

Finally, in relation to our beloved national health service, we, of course, should and will expect health boards to continue to make improvements to patient care and access to treatment during 2017-18. By the end of March 2018, we expect no-one to be waiting more than 36 weeks in the majority of specialities. I’m sure you will all have welcomed the announcement made by the Cabinet Secretary of the extra £95 million for healthcare professionals—that’s absolutely critical, as Dai Lloyd has said—in terms of a demonstration, again, of where this Government sees its priorities.

So, Llywydd, as I said, we welcome this debate. It does give us an opportunity to take stock, and also to welcome constructive scrutiny and to feed into the direction of travel. We need to ensure we’re delivering on our commitments, we’re enabling people to live healthy and fulfilled lives, and continue to support our economy with investment in skills and infrastructure. But we do, as a Welsh Labour Government, have an additional goal, to tackle inequalities, which are as bad for our health as they are for the economy, against the backdrop of continuing UK Government austerity policies.

I just have to say one comment in response to Neil Hamilton. Now, Neil says he supports this motion but I feel that, in terms of his rather disparaging and glib remarks, I need to remind him again about our position in terms of the impact we’ve had in terms of the economy. The jobs market in Wales has continued to outperform almost every part of the UK over the past year. Good news for Wales. Employment in Wales has increased faster than England, Scotland or Northern Ireland. I don’t know where you’ve been, Neil Hamilton, during this time in terms of these figures. Unemployment—[Interruption.]

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The Minister is bringing her comments to a close.

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

[Continues.]—has fallen by 1.4 per cent over the last year and I would say Wales should be rightly proud of its place in the world. Some of our most significant achievements are centred around an equal society. From Hywel Dda’s laws to Aneurin Bevan’s vision, our education system is founded on these same principles—a good, comprehensive system for all, no matter their background. This is what we’re taking forward in our programme for government.

Diolch yn fawr. Dydd Gŵyl Dewi hapus.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Rhun ap Iorwerth, to conclude the debate.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Ynys Môn)

Could I thank everyone who’s taken part in this debate?

Hoffwn ddiolch i bawb sydd wedi cymryd rhan yn y ddadl heddiw. Mae’r Gweinidog yn tynnu sylw at ble y mae’n credu ein bod yn gwneud yn dda. Mae’n iawn i ni ddathlu ein llwyddiannau. Mae’n iawn i ni dynnu sylw at lwyddiannau a chyflawniadau dynion a menywod cyffredin gwych yng Nghymru ar draws y cyhoedd a’r sectorau preifat.

Rwy’n falch o glywed y Gweinidog yn dweud y gellid gwneud rhagor, ond rwy’n clywed yr adlais o amgylch Cymru’n dweud, ‘Wel, gwnewch fwy felly’, oherwydd mae’r Llywodraeth, wrth gwrs, mewn sefyllfa lle y gallwch weithredu. Gall y Llywodraeth osod y naws ar gyfer y genedl. Gall y Llywodraeth osod y cyd-destun lle y gall uchelgais ac arloesedd, ac wrth hynny rwy’n golygu uchelgais ac arloesedd go iawn—. Gall osod y cyd-destun ar gyfer pan fydd hynny’n gallu dod yn norm, yn gallu dod yn rhagosodiad, a dyna rwy’n aros amdano gan y Llywodraeth.

Trof at sylwadau Jeremy Miles ar werth ychwanegol gros. Diolch i chi am ganolbwyntio ar werth ychwanegol gros. Rydych yn iawn nad dyna’r unig fesur ar unrhyw gyfrif, nad yw’n dweud y stori gyfan, ond er bod anghydraddoldebau wedi parhau yn y DU am gyfnod rhy hir—rydym yn cytuno ar hynny—nid ydym bob amser wedi dihoeni ar y gwaelod, pwynt a ailadroddwyd gan arweinydd UKIP yma. Rwy’n cael fy hun yn y sefyllfa anarferol o fod yn cytuno ag ef ar un sylw a wnaeth, sef ei fod yn credu, pe bai Cymru yn dewis mynd ar hyd llwybr annibynnol, y gallai ddod yn genedl lwyddiannus. Mae’n bryfoclyd, onid yw? Y gwahaniaeth yw bod hynny yn fy nghyffroi i a byddai’n well ganddo ef, er gwaethaf ei honiad, pe na bai hynny’n digwydd. Nid yw hynny’n ymddangos yn arbennig o resymegol i mi.

Ond yn ôl at y gwerth ychwanegol gros: fel cymharydd o ble rydym o’i gymharu ag eraill—cystadleuwyr, os mynnwch, yn ystyr bositif y term—mae’n arf defnyddiol iawn; mae’n ddilys iawn. Rwy’n falch ei fod wedi dweud na ddylem anwybyddu’r gwerth ychwanegol gros. Hoffwn ei atgoffa, wrth gwrs, fod gwelliant y Llywodraeth yn ceisio cael gwared ar ein cyfeiriad at y gwerth ychwanegol gros gan ei ddisodli â ffigurau diweithdra, fel pe bai hynny’n dweud y stori gyfan—rwy’n siwr y byddai’r Aelod yn cytuno nad yw’n gwneud hynny.

Diolch i Dai Lloyd, Llyr Gruffydd a Simon Thomas am fanylu ar rai o’n cynigion ynglŷn â lle y gallem fynd yn y dyfodol. Diolch i Paul Davies—ni fyddwn yn cytuno bob amser ar sut i gyrraedd ein nod fel cenedl, ond rwy’n ddiolchgar am y gefnogaeth i’n cynnig heddiw ac am y cytundeb fod angen rywsut i’r Llywodraeth osod y bar yn uwch.

Mae arnom angen uchelgais ac mae angen ewyllys wleidyddol os ydym yn mynd i adeiladu ar ein huchelgais ar gyfer Cymru sy’n iachach, yn gyfoethocach ac wedi’i haddysgu’n dda—dyna ymadrodd sy’n fy atgoffa o’n maniffesto ar gyfer y llynedd. Roedd maniffesto Plaid Cymru yn etholiadau’r Cynulliad Cenedlaethol yn sefyll dros Gymru gyfoethocach wedi’i haddysgu’n dda. Rydym yn falch o fod yn arloeswyr yn y blaid hon. Nid ydym am gael monopoli ar arloesedd, ond byddwn yn parhau i amlinellu ein gweledigaeth gadarnhaol ar gyfer cyflawni’r uchelgais hwnnw. Gadewch i ni osod y bar yn uwch a gadewch i ni anelu amdano. Dydd Gŵyl Dewi hapus, bawb.