Senedd Cymru (Welsh Parliament), 8 March 2017

295 contributions from 46 members. The official report.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

I call the National Assembly to order.

1. 1. Questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Environment and Rural Affairs

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The first item on our agenda this afternoon is questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Environment and Rural Affairs. And the first question, Gareth Bennett.

Gareth Bennett (UKIP, South Wales Central)

1. Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on performance against municipal waste recycling targets across Wales? OAQ(5)0115(ERA)

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Thank you. We are making excellent progress against our recycling targets. Latest figures show 62 per cent recycling for the 12 months ending September 2016, up 4 per cent on the 12 months to September 2015. We are No. 1 in the UK, we’ve risen to No. 2 in Europe, and that’s a great testament to the commitment of councils and residents across Wales.

Gareth Bennett (UKIP, South Wales Central)

Thank you for that information, Cabinet Secretary, and, in itself, yes, that is a good performance. The problem is that, as councils advance towards recycling targets, frequently fly-tipping rates rise. In the two years up to 2016, fly-tipping rose by 10 per cent in Conwy, by 22 per cent in Gwynedd and, in Pembrokeshire, by a massive 47 per cent. In the light of these figures, is it time for your department to review its recycling targets?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Well, I am reviewing our recycling targets, but only to make them even more ambitious. I think you need to take great care when you interpret the increase in the 2015-16 figures around fly-tipping. It is a difficult crime to detect, however I do want to see prosecutions where it is happening. But, you know, fly-tipping incidents in Wales had been steadily declining, and then, as you say, they did increase in 2015-16. But I think a number of changes have been made by local authorities, and it’s really important that we do take the public with us. But I think the increase that we’ve seen, in reaching our targets, does show that the public are with us on this one.

Siân Gwenllian (Plaid Cymru, Arfon)

Ceredigion was the best performing local authority in terms of recycling in the 12 months up to the end of September 2016, with 70 per cent of waste recycled. All of the local authorities led by Plaid Cymru are reaching the national target of recycling 60 per cent of waste. Some authorities, such as Blaenau Gwent, Cardiff and Bridgend, continue to fail to achieve that national target. Does the Cabinet Secretary agree that we need to do more to encourage and enable people to recycle so that every local authority reaches the standards of Ceredigion and recycles 70 per cent of its waste by 2025? For example, why not create a deposit-return scheme for plastic, glass and cans, and a ban on polystyrene in all areas?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Well, 19 of 22 Welsh local authorities reached the target. Bridgend and Cardiff weren’t two of the three that didn’t. The three local authorities that didn’t reach the targets, I’ve now had the opportunity to meet with them, to see why they did fail to reach the targets. And I will be continuing to work, and my officials will continue to work with them to make sure that, next year, they do reach those targets.

You mentioned a couple of initiatives that we are looking at. The deposit-return scheme is one that I think we should give consideration to. But I think, for it to be really beneficial, it needs to be done not just on a Wales-wide—I think we’d have to work with England very closely, and I know Scotland are also looking at it.

Jenny Rathbone (Labour, Cardiff Central)

Cabinet Secretary, there’s no room for taking the foot off the pedal on this. We have to target fly-tipping as well as recycling targets. There’s no such thing as throwing away—all waste needs to be disposed of in some way or another. So, there’s a cost in that. And, in Cardiff, they have achieved the Welsh Government target, which I’m very pleased about. And we need to keep going, because the landfill site at Lamby Way is going to close next year because it’s reached capacity, and that means any further landfill disposal will cost £80 a tonne. And so, therefore, there has to be that emphasis on getting the public to recycle what they need to recycle, and not put it into the non-recyclable bins. Will you join me in supporting this concept, that there is no such thing as throwing away, and we need to tackle every industrial outlet that is developing non-recyclable waste to get them to change, so that we can always reuse and recycle?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Yes, I absolutely agree with what the Member for Cardiff Central says. I’ve actually said to my officials I want us to be the No. 1 country, not just in Europe, but in the world. And I really do think that we can achieve that. I think that’s a very realistic target, you know, to be No. 1 in the world. So, we certainly won’t be taking our foot off the target. We do need to look at ways of encouraging people who don’t currently recycle to do so. I think officials recognise, and I think local authorities recognise, that there will always be a group of people that it will be very difficult to persuade, but that doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t try to persuade them.

Darren Millar (Conservative, Clwyd West)

2. What action is the Welsh Government taking to ensure an adequate supply of Welsh timber for the manufacturing industry in Wales? OAQ(5)0106(ERA)

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Welsh Government is maximising opportunities to increase woodland planting and management. This should ensure there is an adequate supply of timber for the manufacturing sector. Our natural resources policy will be key in planning and prioritising use of land in the future.

Darren Millar (Conservative, Clwyd West)

Cabinet Secretary, you’ll be aware that the latest Woodland for Wales indicators report revealed that, in the year to March 2016, just 348 acres of new woodland was created, which is significantly down from over 16,000 acres that were planted on average in each of the five years to 2014. That step change in planting seemed to coincide with the creation of Natural Resources Wales, and many in the timber manufacturing industry have expressed concerns about continuity of supply, and that will influence some of their business decisions about where investment goes. What do you say to companies like Clifford Jones Timber in Ruthin, in my own constituency, that have raised concerns about this? You’ve indicated that there is going to be an increase. Are we going to get up to this 16,000 acres plus that we were previously achieving historically, so that we can have these adequate supplies not just for the next five or six years, but for 10 and 20 years hence?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Yes, I too have visited Clifford Jones Timber in Ruthin, and they raised those very same concerns with me. NRW is the largest provider of timber in Wales, and that does supply, I think, 60 per cent of the total sector requirements. We have to increase the amount that we have been doing. We’ve now got the timber marketing plan, which does outline timber availability. That is only for five years, but I think it’s a good starting point. I’ve also asked officials to make sure we continue to work with farmers, for instance, because we want farmers to diversify, and this is an area that they can do that.

Simon Thomas (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

Cabinet Secretary, you remember the visit to Pentre Solar in Glanrhyd in Pembrokeshire, where you and I both saw how local Welsh timber had been used not only for house construction, but also for skills and increasing skills in the local workforce to work that timber. What further steps can you take, because I think there’s a great potential for timber for house construction in particular in Wales, and also, of course, the growth of woodland helps with flood prevention in areas, carbon sequestration and, also, air quality. So, isn’t it now time for a further push from the Welsh Government on a more bespoke support scheme for woodlands in Wales, because of the benefits not only to manufacturing, but to the quality of life that woodland can bring?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Yes, absolutely, and it was a very good example of how timber could be used in house construction at Pentre Solar, which we both visited. I’ve been having those discussions with my colleague, Carl Sargeant, the Cabinet Secretary for Communities and Children, in relation to looking at different ways of building houses. I mentioned in my previous answer to Darren Millar that we’ve got the new timber marketing plan. I think we need to have a look. We’ve just set up a woodlands strategy advisory panel task and finish group. That’s going to be to look at timber availability, and one area they could concentrate on is in relation to housing.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Cabinet Secretary, timber obviously is a major element here, and we’ve seen in my area the harvesting of timber change because of the diseases within the valley area. Therefore, the replanting is important, to look at, as Simon Thomas says, not just the nature of the land, but also perhaps the opportunity for other businesses beyond manufacturing, such as tourism areas. What progress has been made in replanting in the Afan valley to ensure that we can get that back to where it was?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

I can’t give you specifics for the Afan valley, but I’d be very happy to write to you.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Questions now from the party spokespeople. Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Simon Thomas.

Simon Thomas (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

Cabinet Secretary, we were reminded again yesterday, in evidence from Public Health Wales, about the fact that air pollution is a public health crisis in Wales, causing something in the region of 2,000 deaths per annum. Six per cent of all deaths in Wales are as a result of air pollution, which is second only as a cause of death to smoking. So, what is the Government doing to ensure that our efforts on air quality are retained as we leave the European Union and lose some of the most important regulations in this context?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Thank you. It’s very clear to me that we definitely need a concerted effort across all sectors to address this very important issue. We need some radical solutions and I’ve made it very clear that, within my portfolio, this is one of my top priorities.

You will be aware that we’ve just had a recent consultation on local air quality, and I will be bringing forward a written statement before the end of this month regarding the responses that we’ve received. I think that, by leaving the EU, if anything, we will increase our targets. I think that air quality, as you say, affects so many of our aspects of our life, including our well-being and our health. But, as I say, I think we do need to have a real concerted effort in this area.

Simon Thomas (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

Thank you for that response. I am pleased to hear that you are putting this at the top of your list of priorities, because there is nothing more prominent in your own portfolio that also has an impact on the daily lives of so many of us living in areas where air pollution is a problem. You’ve mentioned that this needs to be done across Government. The Public Health (Wales) Bill is currently being considered by the Assembly. At the moment, that Bill doesn’t include any reference to air pollution or to tackling air pollution as a matter of public health. Although you’re not the Cabinet Secretary responsible for that Bill, of course, what are you doing, in negotiation with your fellow Cabinet Secretaries, in order to ensure that this Bill helps you to address the issue of air pollution in Wales?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Those discussions have taken place, and it is obviously, as you say, something, as it’s going through the Assembly, that we can look at, because there is nothing more important, obviously, from a public health point of view, than air quality. As you say, we were reminded very sharply of that yesterday.

Simon Thomas (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

I hope that those discussions do lead to a little more joined-up thinking on that Bill, and, of course, the whole Assembly will get the opportunity to amend it, if necessary. But can I also return to the issue of Aberthaw power station, on which, when I last questioned you and the First Minister on this, I was told that Natural Resources Wales had now contacted the owners of Aberthaw and had asked them to come forward by, I think, now with a proposal for how they would reduce their unlawful emissions, which have been found so by the European Court of Justice. Can you update the Assembly on developments in Aberthaw and whether you are now content that there’s a programme in place to reduce those harmful emissions?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

I am meeting NRW next week—I think it’s on the fifteenth—to discuss that, but I will be very happy to update after that meeting.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The Welsh Conservatives’ spokesperson, Paul Davies.

Paul Davies (Conservative, Preseli Pembrokeshire)

Diolch, Lywydd. Cabinet Secretary, your predecessor commissioned the independent review of the dairy sector in Wales, which detailed a number of recommendations to help support the dairy industry and increase its competitiveness. Following that report, can you update us on the progress that the Welsh Government has made in responding to that review and outline what outcomes you’ve delivered to make the dairy industry in Wales more competitive?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

I think we have seen progress in relation to the dairy sector following that review, which, as you say, my predecessor undertook. One of the recommendation’s that came out of it was that we should have a dairy champion. I’m very keen to take this forward and, at the current time, we are trying to identify the most suitable and appropriate person to do that.

Paul Davies (Conservative, Preseli Pembrokeshire)

Another recommendation in that review was to raise the issue of taxation of agricultural businesses in Wales and to take a deeper look at the current regime and whether it hinders future investment in the sector. In a recent response to a written question, you said that the delivery of this recommendation has been delayed and that this should be looked at in partnership with other parts of the UK, with which I agree. Can you now update us on this specific agenda and tell us what the Welsh Government is intending to deliver in terms of outcomes on this particular issue?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

I can’t give you an update on that at the current time. Those discussions are ongoing. Indeed, officials from the four nations are currently meeting, as we speak. I’m not sure if this is on the agenda, but this is something certainly that officials are looking at right across the UK.

Paul Davies (Conservative, Preseli Pembrokeshire)

I’d encourage, obviously, the Cabinet Secretary to put it on the agenda, given that it was one of the recommendations in this particular review. The independent review was also quite right in recognising that there are significant cash flow problems for some farmers within the dairy sector, although I’m sure that that’s also an issue for dairy farmers across the UK. Indeed, this matter is not helped by the fact that there are high input costs for dairy farmers and there’s very little support from the Welsh Government to secure funding for capital improvements. Will you, therefore, commit to evaluating the costs attached to dairy farming in Wales, and look at ways in which the Welsh Government can provide support to dairy farmers through additional capital investment support to help to improve the efficiency and therefore the viability of the sector for the future?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Yes, it’s an area that we’re looking at. You’ll be aware of the new small grants scheme, but we’re going to call that ‘farm grants’ so as not to mix it up with the rural development programme. This is an area, perhaps, where we will be able to help dairy farmers specifically.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

UKIP spokesperson, Neil Hamilton.

Neil Hamilton (UKIP, Mid and West Wales)

Diolch, Lywydd. Brexit is probably going to have a greater impact on agriculture than almost any other sector, obviously because it’s regulated under the common agricultural policy and funded largely through the European Union. The Government, therefore, has to be thinking ahead very deeply about what’s going to be our agricultural regime after we’ve left the European Union.

I’ve been reading the minutes of the European advisory group, which the First Minister established six months ago, to see what their thinking is, and I was surprised to discover that agriculture hasn’t featured at all, as yet, in their considerations. That may be related to the fact that there’s only one member who has any recognisable agricultural credentials amongst those who have been appointed to it. So, I wonder whether this indicates that the Welsh Government isn’t, perhaps, terribly interested in the future of agriculture in our country.

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Not at all and I think the agriculture sector would tell the Member how pleased they are with the stakeholder engagement that we’ve had. You’ll be aware that straight after the vote to leave the European Union I began stakeholder events. At the end of this month we’ll have, I think, either the sixth or the seventh one. Ministerial engagement is very firmly now set in our calendars. We meet once a month, so, during recess, all the agriculture and environment Ministers met in Scotland.

We are working very closely together. I mentioned that officials from all four UK countries are currently meeting as we speak, so there’s been a huge amount of input into the future of agriculture. During recess, I attended the National Farmers Union conference in Birmingham, where I held a debate with George Eustice, the UK agriculture Minister, and I have to say that the Welsh delegates made it very clear that we are far in advance of any other country with our engagement.

Neil Hamilton (UKIP, Mid and West Wales)

Well, I’m very pleased to hear that, and I can say from my own experience that, talking to people who are involved in groups that represent agriculture and farming, they’re pleased with the level of engagement that you have given them. But I don’t know whether you’ve yet had a chance to read the policy statement on Brexit that has been published by NFU Cymru, but one of the positive things that they say in there is that leaving the European Union gives us the opportunity to review the regulations that currently affect farming and agriculture, and they say that poor regulation is the reason for a lack of farm business confidence—and this is related to the costs of compliance, and time given over to compliance and to demonstrating compliance. These add significantly to farmers’ workloads.

So, without wanting to throw the baby out with the bathwater and get rid of all regulation, it is a great opportunity for us to review the effectiveness of regulation and whether it imposes disproportionate costs for the public benefits that are supposed to flow from it. Can the Cabinet Secretary tell the Assembly that the Welsh Government will look seriously at reviewing regulation and reducing its impact on farmers without compromising public safety and other objectives?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Well, we’re going to have to review it, because, clearly, when all of the powers from the EU come back to Wales, we will then have the opportunity to have our Welsh agricultural policy. Clearly, regulation—if you ask many farmers who did vote ‘leave’ why they voted ‘leave’, regulation is cited as one of the reasons. I don’t think it helped that the UK Tory—or some of the UK Tory Ministers were saying that we would be decreasing particularly our environmental regulations. That is not going to happen, and I’ve made that very clear—if anything, we will strengthen them.

But I think it is a very good opportunity to have a look at regulation, talking in partnership with the sector, to make sure that the regulation is correct. Again, that’s one of the things that we are talking about in our stakeholder events.

Neil Hamilton (UKIP, Mid and West Wales)

I thank the Cabinet Secretary for that answer. Brexit does give us the freedom to introduce new regulations and controls as well in areas where we might have wished to do so but had been thwarted in the past by the lack of enthusiasm on part of our other partners in the European Union. One of these areas is the live export of animals, for example, which we’ve been prevented from banning and also introducing regulations in relation to animal welfare, for example, the maximum eight-hour journey time for animals travelling, for fattening and slaughter. So, can the Cabinet Secretary give me an assurance that measures of this kind may be on the agenda as well?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

I think everything is on the agenda, to be perfectly honest with you. We are wading through a huge amount of regulations and legislation just in agriculture and fisheries. In my own portfolio, there are 5,000 pieces of legislation and regulations. So, I think, you know, we are—. I have said that I really want to work very closely with the sector to make sure we have the absolute best policy. But one thing we have made very clear to UK Government, time after time, is that when those powers come from the EU, the powers are ours—they’re not theirs to be repatriated. They are ours from the beginning and we will ensure that we have a fit-for-purpose policy.

John Griffiths (Labour, Newport East)

3. What action is the Welsh Government taking to improve access to the Welsh countryside? OAQ(5)0113(ERA)

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Thank you. The Welsh Government continues to provide significant funding for the Wales Coast Path and to local authorities for public access throughout Wales. I recently announced my intention to develop and publish proposals on amending legislation in order to develop a better and fairer approach to public access for outdoor recreation.

John Griffiths (Labour, Newport East)

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. I very much look forward to that widening of access, which I think is probably long overdue. It’s very important that more people in Wales, Cabinet Secretary, enjoy our great outdoors, which we are so fortunate to have. There are the obvious health and activity benefits, as well as appreciating the countryside more and, perhaps, being more environmentally responsible as a result. So, would you agree with me, Cabinet Secretary, that establishing the Wales Coast Path, which you mentioned, was a huge step forward in encouraging more people to enjoy our great outdoors? But there are some unfinished aspects to that, for example the creation of the circular routes, which were envisaged, linking local communities with the coast path, and also, perhaps, having a very high-profile annual celebration on the anniversary of the creation of the Wales Coast Path, so we could ensure it’s all walked by local communities and schools on that anniversary date?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Yes, I think that’s a very good idea and, of course, it’s the fifth anniversary this year. The contribution to the Welsh economy, for instance, I think is something that’s not always recognised. But I do agree that we should celebrate it.

As you know, we do provide funding to Natural Resources Wales to continue to improve and promote the path and I think there are also things we can do, perhaps, that don’t cost a lot of money. I think perhaps we could link up canals, for instance, with other parts of the countryside and then, obviously, we have the coast path that links into that also. Our officials are working very closely because next year is going to be the Year of the Sea. So, I think, again, there’s an opportunity to really promote the coast path. And both I and the Cabinet Secretary for Economy and Infrastructure are very keen to ensure that any future marketing plans around that help to realise the really full benefits of the investment we have put into the Wales Coast Path.

Andrew RT Davies (Conservative, South Wales Central)

Cabinet Secretary, access to the countryside is something to be welcomed and hopefully it creates a greater understanding of what the countryside is for, which primarily is to produce food for us—to live off the fat of the land, as many people might say—but there is a serious issue about educating people when they do access fields and they do access the countryside that there are risks and there are dangers. In my own area of South Wales Central, only a couple of years ago several walkers sadly were trampled by cattle in the St Fagans and Radyr area. Across the UK, it is one of the biggest killers of people in the countryside: livestock interacting with people who aren’t aware of the safety precautions they need to take. Would you, along with your incentives to open up parts of the countryside, make sure that there is a robust education campaign and public awareness campaign out there, so that tragedies like those that have happened in my own region can be avoided wherever possible?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

The Member does raise a very important point and I think it is about getting that balance right as well. Certainly, we’ve had about 5,800 responses to the Welsh Government consultation around that, and you won’t be surprised to hear that subjects such as those you have just raised were brought up in that. But, certainly, we can look to make sure that—. As I say, I am going to look at the legislation, and certainly alongside that we could look to have some sort of education campaign, as you suggest.

Michelle Brown (UKIP, North Wales)

I support, in principle, extending access to the countryside for everyone. However, a balance needs to be found between the right of people to roam in and enjoy our countryside, and the needs of landowners and farmers to manage and use their land effectively. What discussions have you had with landowners, and organisations representing them, to persuade them to allow increased access to their land?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Well, I mentioned in my previous answer to the leader of the Conservatives that there has to be that balance, and those discussions are continual, really. But when I look to altering the legislation, I think that is another chance to have that discussion with landowners. But, certainly, I would say it’s raised in most of my meetings with the agriculture sector. Particularly when I go on farm visits, it is an issue that they do raise with me.

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

4. To what extent has the Welsh Government considered amending their rural development plan in light of Brexit? OAQ(5)0112(ERA)

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Diolch. Stakeholders have given me their assessment of the impacts on both economy and communities. I will invest in projects of good value to assist businesses and communities build their long-term resilience. Later this month, I will announce details of when and how the remaining funds will be committed and spent.

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Could the Cabinet Secretary state whether it would be possible to adapt the programme, even at this late stage, in order, for example, to expand the use of financial instruments within the programme, providing further loan facilities for businesses in rural communities, which could, then, be recirculated in the economy post Brexit?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

We did look very seriously at using financial instruments in the RDP, but they’re very complex. They’re very slow to set up, and they are very costly to administer, and we found it would take about two years to set it up, and then, you know, make the first payment. So, you know, with Brexit now coming down the track, I don’t think there would be the time. I don’t think it would be cost-effective to do so now, but I think there are other ways of using our funding that we need to look at very closely. I’m keen to get as much of the funding out as quickly as possible. And, as I say, I will be making an announcement later this month.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Ynys Môn)

I’m pleased to hear the Cabinet Secretary saying that she understands the importance of making the most of what we have left of the European programmes currently in existence. In the past I have discussed with her and her officials the possibility of establishing a food production park on Anglesey. Will the Cabinet Secretary be willing to consider that now, as one of the major projects, investing in the rural economy in an area such as Anglesey, which could benefit from the funding available now?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Funnily enough, I was talking with my officials about food production areas—not just in Ynys Môn, but in other part of Wales—yesterday, and it’s certainly something we can look at. As I say, I’ve recently agreed the future delivery mechanisms for the remainder of the programme, but I will be making a fuller announcement because we still have £223 million of the programme available. If it’s possible, we can certainly look at that.

Nick Ramsay (Conservative, Monmouth)

Cabinet Secretary, there are clearly many unanswered questions surrounding the hugely complicated process that is Brexit. In answer I think to a question from Neil Hamilton earlier, you said that Wales is way ahead of other nations at this point—I presume by that, you mean within the UK—in terms of looking at how we’re going to develop the systems after Brexit. Can you update us—? Can you explain a little bit more about your reasoning behind that? And also, what discussions have you had with the farming unions in Wales to make sure that farming support does continue?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

There are many, many, unanswered questions. The magnitude of this work is huge, but we are grasping it, and I think the answer I gave to Neil Hamilton was that we were way ahead of the four UK countries in relation to stakeholder engagement. I think that was the specific answer I gave to Neil Hamilton. So, I’ve had many, many discussions with the farming unions, but not just the farming unions—the wider stakeholders. Because it’s not just about farming unions; it’s also about the environment sector, the forestry sector. We’re making sure that in our stakeholder engagement events, everybody is around the table. I was very keen to avoid silo working, so you’d have the agricultural sector working over here, and the environment sector working over there, and I think that’s why we’ve had such good buy-in, really, from our stakeholders.

Paul Davies (Conservative, Preseli Pembrokeshire)

5. What is the Welsh Government doing to promote food tourism across Wales? OAQ(5)0104(ERA)

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Thank you. The food tourism action plan, launched in April 2015, identifies initiatives and promotional activity to develop Welsh tourism. It includes steps to develop food tourism as a sector and selling point for Wales, with Welsh food promoted at major events, activities and attractions.

Paul Davies (Conservative, Preseli Pembrokeshire)

I’m pleased to hear, of course, that the Welsh Government has made it clear that food is an essential part of the tourism offer in Wales. I recently had the pleasure of visiting Dr Beynon’s Bug Farm in my constituency, which isn’t just a working farm, but it’s also the UK’s first full-time edible insect restaurant, known as Grub Kitchen, and I would encourage you to visit because I’m sure, like me, you’d find it fascinating. Given that the Welsh Government has made it clear that food is an essential part of the tourism offer, can you therefore tell us what the Welsh Government is doing to support smaller, more unique food tourism businesses like the bug farm, and what is the Government doing to encourage more and more people to visit these sorts of attractions in the future?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

You’re right; I did mention that food and tourism are priority sectors, and if we put the two together, we can see that food is absolutely an essential part of the tourism offer here in Wales. It provides, I think, a common point of contact. People come to Wales for the wonderful scenery; they also come for our wonderful food and drink. So, we’ve got the food tourism action plan. That focuses on the importance of Welsh food and drink in terms of the visitor experience, and I’d be very happy to visit the Grub Kitchen if the Member would like to invite me.

Neil McEvoy (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

Cabinet Secretary, in my party’s Assembly manifesto, we called for 2018 to be designated as a national year of Welsh food and drink. [Interruption.] I’m still in the party. Easy, please. 2017 is the Year of Legends, so does your Government support my party’s call for a national food and drink year next year?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

I’m not sure if the Member was in the Chamber, but in an answer just a couple of answers ago, I mentioned it’s the Year of the Sea next year, but we can certainly have a look—

Neil McEvoy (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

Oh, right. The year after? [Laughter.]

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

I’m unsure; that obviously falls within the Cabinet Secretary for the Economy and Infrastructure’s department. I really don’t know what 2019 is, but I can certainly have a look.

Steffan Lewis (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

6. Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on public parks? OAQ(5)0108(ERA)

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Thank you. The provision and maintenance of public parks is the responsibility of local authorities. Our public parks can enhance the resilience of our ecosystems and help us tackle the impacts of climate change such as flooding. Public parks provide spaces for recreation, children’s play, outdoor learning and opportunities to improve physical and mental well-being.

Steffan Lewis (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

I thank the Cabinet Secretary for her answer. I have to declare an interest as the species champion for the shrill carder bee, an important part of the Gwent ecosystem. The Cabinet Secretary, I’m sure, appreciates the importance of public parks to our ecosystem and to its habitats, and she’ll be aware I’m sure of the Heritage Lottery Fund’s ‘State of UK Public Parks 2016’ report last year, which reported that Wales was anticipating the highest percentage reduction to staff, as well as the greatest proportion of declining parks. No park managers in Wales expect to have parks that are improving in condition in the next three years. What could she say to reassure me that that is absolutely not the case?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

As I say, it is an issue for local authorities, and we’ve made our views very clear. You’ll be aware that we were recently consulting on the natural resources policy—that closed on 13 February—and I’m getting ready to publish the final policy later spring, early summer, and this is an area that we are focusing on.

Suzy Davies (Conservative, South Wales West)

In our manifesto, Cabinet Secretary, Welsh Conservatives pledged to a community right to bid for registered assets of community value. I appreciate we don’t have that but, actually, in the Labour manifesto your party stated that you would introduce measures to prevent unnecessary closures, and to assist communities to take ownership of community assets themselves, where possible and appropriate. I’m wondering whether you’ve had an opportunity to speak to your Cabinet colleague, bearing in mind that a consultation by your own Government revealed that there was a lot of popular support for this idea, about when something similar might happen in Wales so that we can know what it looks like, and have the opportunity to support it.

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Yes, I have had the opportunity, and obviously I was in that portfolio previously, and I know that the Cabinet Secretary for Communities and Children is considering it.

Julie Morgan (Labour, Cardiff North)

I think everybody agrees that the parks in Cardiff are glorious, and I was very pleased that the friends of Cefn Onn park, which is in my constituency of Cardiff North, secured a £495,000 Heritage Lottery Fund grant towards improving the park. Work is actually beginning on this this month. So, would she congratulate the friends of Cefn Onn park and the local authority in definitely taking major steps forward to improve this park in Cardiff?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Yes, absolutely. It’s very good to see this work being undertaken. I absolutely agree with you about the parks in Cardiff. I think that’s one of the things, when I first started visiting Cardiff as an adult; the parks are indeed very glorious and there is so much green space in our capital city.

Mohammad Asghar (Conservative, South Wales East)

7. What plans does the Welsh Government have to improve access to the countryside for recreation in Wales? OAQ(5)0103(ERA)

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Thank you. I refer you to my written statement of the 13 February. Welsh Government is already supporting improvements to existing access infrastructure. It is my intention to develop and publish proposals on amending legislation in order to develop a better and fairer approach to public access for outdoor recreation.

Mohammad Asghar (Conservative, South Wales East)

Thank you for the positive reply, Minister. A report by the Environment Agency in 2007 highlighted the importance of angling to the Welsh economy. It was estimated that the Welsh inland fisheries generated £75 million of expenditure by anglers, many of whom were visitors to Wales from abroad. Does the Cabinet Secretary agree that increasing responsible and sustainable access to Welsh inland waters, together with a campaign to promote Wales as a venue for angling, could bring immense benefits to the Welsh economy in the near future?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Angling is obviously a very important recreation in Wales and some of the most passionate letters I think I’ve received—I think one of them was from a 10-year-old boy, who was a young fisherman with his father. We are certainly looking, as I say, at the responses we had to the consultation and I will be bringing forward a statement later this year.

Michelle Brown (UKIP, North Wales)

We’re blessed in Wales with a stunning landscape and extensive countryside and a great way of seeing that countryside and taking exercise at the same time is on horseback. It’s not just a means of taking exercise; it can be of great benefit to disabled people and there have been schemes across the country for riding for the disabled. Maintaining a riding establishment has become ever more difficult and many have shut. What support are you offering to riding establishments to get them up and running again, so that they can offer this facility to people like the disabled?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

I absolutely agree with you that horse riding is something that disabled people can take part in. I can’t think of any specific initiatives we’ve got or anything that’s actually across my desk from anybody asking for assistance in that way, but I would be very happy to consider it if that were the case.

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

8. Will the Cabinet Secretary provide an update on the Welsh Government plans for energy targets from community-owned energy generation projects in Wales? OAQ(5)0114(ERA)

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Thank you. I will be setting ambitious targets for renewable energy. We are working with stakeholders to consider what aspects energy targets might cover. I believe community and locally owned energy projects are important, as we want to see projects retaining economic and social benefit in Wales.

Jeremy Miles (Labour, Neath)

I thank the Cabinet Secretary for that reply. I’m aware of an NRW tender for a single turbine project in south Wales, which is an ideal scale, really, for a community project. The criteria for the tender really are prohibitive for community projects at that scale, requiring track record of delivery and several years’ worth of accounts. I obviously understand the need for due diligence and for there to be appropriate levels of assurance but I note that in the tender, there’s a reference to community benefits being expressed in pounds, which seemed to me to show the limited approach of that. Does she agree with me that we need to try and find ways, consistent with the need for assurance, for these small-scale projects to be genuinely accessible to community energy production?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Absolutely, and we’ve continued to encourage NRW to create the maximum possible local benefit from the estate, and we offer support under the local energy service to enable community developers to deliver on these opportunities. I am aware that there have been groups, particularly co-operatives, that have come forward and because they haven’t got that sort of historical, financial history, it has led to issues. I know that Value Wales have been looking at these specific issues and I have asked NRW to link up with them to see what more can be done in that area.

Adam Price (Plaid Cymru, Carmarthen East and Dinefwr)

The Government has committed, from this April onwards, I believe, to ensuring that 100 per cent of energy in the public sector comes from renewable sources. Would it be possible to take a step further and have a target for the whole of Wales, and ensure that 100 per cent of all of our energy needs are provided from renewable sources within 20 years?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Yes, it’s certainly something that we can look at. We’ve got a debate next Tuesday, Presiding Officer, in Government time, around this and targets, et cetera. I was very pleased to see that target coming forward from next month and 50 per cent of that energy will come from Wales, initially. I do think we need to be very ambitious—pragmatic and realistic, but I think we have to be very ambitious—and I’m very happy to look at what the Member suggests.

David Melding (Conservative, South Wales Central)

Cabinet Secretary, we’ll be discussing the foundational economy in a debate later, and it seems to me that community energy projects and the whole greening of the Welsh and British economy are areas where we could really have great advances that would empower local people very considerably.

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Yes, I absolutely agree with the Member. I think it’s really important that we do all we can to make sure the process isn’t as difficult as, perhaps, it’s been at times. Certainly, when I’ve met with groups that have got these community energy schemes off the ground, they’ve needed incredible tenacity and patience and I think we need to do all we can to support them. I think we have put a lot of resources into doing that, not just financial, but also that support that’s so needed.

Vikki Howells (Labour, Cynon Valley)

9. Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on how the Welsh Government is supporting the renewable energy sector in Wales? OAQ(5)0109(ERA)

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Thank you. In our drive for a decarbonised future, we are fully committed to supporting more renewable energy projects in Wales. Our wealth of natural resources enables us to benefit from a wide range of opportunities, from major projects such as tidal lagoons to community-scale energy generation schemes.

Vikki Howells (Labour, Cynon Valley)

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. We know that the renewable energy sector has enormous potential to boost the economy and through efficient supply networks, any benefits can be spread throughout Wales. How is the Welsh Government ensuring that finance is available so that these projects can be taken forward? I’m thinking in terms, here, of direct support for community generation, as mentioned in the previous question, but also in terms of investment from external sources.

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Well, we work with numerous companies to promote investment into all regions of Wales. In the renewable energy sector, we attract inward investment through conferences, through exhibitions, such as RenewableUK’s all-energy and wave and tidal events. It’s really important that we have Welsh supply chain companies on our Welsh Government stands, so that they can make the contacts, and that then supports their growth plans. It also highlights the depth of expertise that is available to inward investors. Just recently, as the First Minister—you’ll be aware—was in the United States last week, I was in Dubai. The Cabinet Secretary for Economy and Infrastructure has recently visited both China and Japan, and I mean, it’s not just about renewable energy—it’s about all sectors—but we’re making sure that we do attract that investment here.

Simon Thomas (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

I’m sure, Cabinet Secretary, you share my disappointment that the budget today did not include a positive statement around the tidal lagoon. That’s something that would be extremely welcome here in Wales. What further steps can she take now to press the UK Government to come forward with a positive decision on the tidal lagoon? Also, bearing in mind, for example, that we had a very good event here last night, at which we heard from Milford Haven Port Authority, what can we do to build a supply chain that’s ready, throughout Wales, to supply that lagoon when, hopefully, it gets the go-ahead?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Well, Presiding Officer, Members will understand that I am limited in what I can say about particular projects or proposals, and that does include the proposed tidal lagoon for Swansea bay, given my statutory role. However, you’ll be aware that we’ve had discussions—myself and Ken Skates—with Charles Hendry. We support, in principle, the development of a tidal lagoon energy industry in the UK and we will continue to have those discussions.

Andrew RT Davies (Conservative, South Wales Central)

Cabinet Secretary, I’ve asked you previously about connectivity to the grid, which acts as a real stumbling block for many small-scale renewable projects to actually get off the ground. When I asked you this question the last time, you said the Government are making very good progress. I followed that up with a written question that indicated there had only been two meetings with officials and the distributors, Western Power Distribution. So, could you enlarge on exactly how the good progress that you informed me the Welsh Government was making the last time I asked you this question is actually translating onto the ground, so that there is a greater increase in capacity so more community-based renewable projects can actually have that connection and be allowed to go forward?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

We have a significant number now of community energy-based projects going forward. I think we’ve got about 11, now, in construction. I am actually meeting with the National Grid, if it’s not next week I think it’s the week after, which will be my initial meeting, but, as I said, officials have had meetings also.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary.

2. 2. Questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Communities and Children

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The next item on our agenda is questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Communities and Children, and the first question is from Angela Burns.

Angela Burns (Conservative, Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire)

1. Will the Cabinet Secretary provide an update on how he intends to support victims of domestic violence? OAQ(5)0117(CC)

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I thank the Member for her question, and, Presiding Officer, if I may, wish you and women and girls across Wales a very happy International Women’s Day.

Our national strategy sets out the actions we are taking to support victims of domestic violence through the delivery, development and implementation of the framework. Since the Violence Against Women, Domestic Abuse and Sexual Violence (Wales) Act 2015 was passed, we have appointed a national adviser, published the national framework on training, and piloted the ‘Ask and Act’.

Angela Burns (Conservative, Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire)

Thank you for that response and thank you, Cabinet Secretary, for attending the Mothers Affection Matters event earlier today. Because here we are, celebrating International Women’s Day 2017, and yet, today, we heard some harrowing stories and learnt of the deep fear of abused people who are reluctant to seek help because they feel their children will be removed. I’ll be absolutely honest, a couple of the stories I heard today have really affected me, so, my apologies. Because we should all be free and so should these women.

It costs far less to support safe mothers and far more when children are removed into the care system. Could I press you, Cabinet Secretary, to review the successful German model of removing the perpetrators of domestic violence and enabling the abused person to remain in their community, with the support of police, social services, and GPs? I would like to see if this excellent practice could be a lesson learnt for us here in Wales. We’ve been so successful in so many other areas in being the first in the world on things like children’s commissioners and so on, and I would like us to see if we can do something really radical, and perhaps learn from our European neighbours. Thank you.

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I thank the Member for her question and the opportunity to briefly meet some of the people at the event at lunch time. Llywydd, no-one should blame victims who take the time and courage to come forward. We all know and admire the courage they show when they speak out, and what we can and should blame are the onlookers who know what’s going on and stay silent about these things.

In regard to the very specific question on this, the VAWDASV Act is one piece of the jigsaw; the housing Act actually does look at removing perpetrators from a property. So, there is a suite of tools that we do have, but I will look at the model that the Member raises and ask my advisory panel to give me some more thoughts around that.

Joyce Watson (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Last week, I asked what was being done to prevent female genital mutilation and to support those who are affected by it. A year ago, on International Women’s Day, the National Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children and BAWSO, supported by the Cardiff and Vale University Local Health Board, launched Voices Over Silence, and it’s a project aimed at doing just that. It is a Welsh Government-funded project that allows 16 young women to be trained as youth ambassadors on FGM to spark conversations about FGM in schools and in communities across Wales.

I’m really pleased to say that the project, last night, won the Royal College of Midwives award for partnership working. So, I ask you, Cabinet Secretary, if you will join me in congratulating all those involved in this outstanding initiative.

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

Indeed. NSPCC, BAWSO and the university and the youth ambassadors indeed are doing a fantastic job and I was delighted when the Welsh Government-funded programme was awarded the RCM award. It is a big congratulations from me and I’ve already tweeted to say congratulations to them, too.

Siân Gwenllian (Plaid Cymru, Arfon)

Yesterday afternoon, you declined to support a Plaid Cymru amendment that would make it mandatory to introduce healthy relationships education in schools. I would like to understand why you rejected that amendment. How are we going to reduce violence against women in a permanent way unless our children and young people have an opportunity to discuss key issues around ensuring healthy relationships? And if it isn’t mandatory in schools then there is no assurance that it will happen and will happen consistently across Wales.

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I thank the Member for her question. Yesterday, the Member is right, you tabled an amendment in regard to healthy relationships, and I did respond to you in that debate yesterday on the reason why we weren’t supporting it then—because we have a working group that the Cabinet Secretary for Education has set up; we want to learn from that. But you’re pushing at an open door here; it’s about the way we do this and introduction of it. I agree with the Member in terms of how it should be done, it’s just when we do that in the appropriate manner through the curriculum, and that will become clearer with the Cabinet Secretary’s statements shortly.

Mike Hedges (Labour, Swansea East)

2. Will the Cabinet Secretary provide an update on Welsh Government proposals regarding letting agent fees? OAQ(5)0113(CC)

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I thank the Member for his question. I’m very concerned that fees charged by letting agents are placing a disproportionate burden on tenants. I hope to be able to announce shortly how we as a Government propose to respond to this matter.

Mike Hedges (Labour, Swansea East)

Can I thank the Cabinet Secretary for that response? I, along with several colleagues, most notably Jenny Rathbone, have been opposing letting fees being charged to tenants for several years. Currently, action is being taken in England and has been taken in Scotland. Can the Cabinet Secretary give an indication of the timescale for action being taken?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

We are aware Scotland banned these fees some years ago. England will soon be consulting on their proposals. Their experience will help to inform the proposals here in Wales. I don’t have a fixed timeline on this, but I will encourage the Member, again, and, of course, Jenny Rathbone and other Members, if they feel free to submit to the Members’ ballot, it will be supported by the—

Mike Hedges (Labour, Swansea East)

Already done.

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

[Continues.]—Government, if possible.

Bethan Sayed (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

I, too, would like to wish all the women in the Chamber a happy International Women’s Day. In response to previous calls to ban letting fees at the start of a tenancy, your Government has claimed that renters would end up paying more in the longer term in regard to increased rent. However, since laws surrounding agency fees have been enforced in Scotland, the charity Shelter has stated that there has been no visible increase in rents, and the organisation easyProperty has also stated that, due to competition in the sector, it was unlikely that agencies would pass on charges to landlords. What lessons will you be taking from Scotland in this regard? And I would echo Mike Hedges’s question: when are we going to get this review completed so that we can implement this here in Wales?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

Well, that was one of the issues we were concerned about—a transfer of risk to tenants, particularly in fees. We are more content now with the evidence coming from Scotland that that doesn’t appear to be the case. This is a piece of legislation that we’d have to introduce, so that will depend on introduction on the legislative timetable, if and when we’re able to do that.

David Melding (Conservative, South Wales Central)

Cabinet Secretary, can I begin by congratulating you on your resplendent buttonhole? Not only would Lady Rhondda have approved, but I think our former colleague William Graham would have approved. He would have probably conceded that you did better than him in this occasion.

The problem with the current structure is it distorts the market. We need these fees to sit with the responsibility of the landlord. It will be reflected in rents, but landlords would be able to get better value for money for these services and, at the minute, it really acts as the consumer’s disadvantage in having to pay, in effect, for the privilege of buying a service.

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I’m grateful for the acknowledgement that, if we were to introduce legislation, the Member may even support it as we move through with the passage of that. Look, Members, I hope to be able to announce shortly how the Government propose to respond to this matter. I will bring that to the Chamber accordingly.

Caroline Jones (UKIP, South Wales West)

Cabinet Secretary, Wales has been the trailblazer in so many issues, so it’s doubly disappointing that, on the issue of abolishing letting agent fees, we are so far behind the rest of Britain. Letting agency fees make it near impossible for many families to enter the private rented sector and increases the demand for social housing. Cabinet Secretary, there is absolutely no evidence that abolishing fees will push up rents, so when will your Government follow the rest of Britain and abolish these punitive fees?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I refer the Member to my last response.

Jenny Rathbone (Labour, Cardiff Central)

I’d just like to add my voice on the urgency of this matter. Not only are students being asked to pay £150 to simply take the property off the market while they sort out the tenancy contract, which may never occur, but single people on housing benefits, people who are part of the Supporting People programme on employment support allowance, are having to pay for these fees out of the money they’re supposed to be using for food, because they cannot get housing benefit to cover these fees. So, this is a really, really urgent matter, and I hope I can impress on you that we need to get on with it.

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

The Member regularly meets me to talk about these very issues. I want to make good law in Wales, Llywydd. I will not be rushed into it. However, I will give it careful consideration on the effectiveness, a tailored approach for the needs in Wales, and that the capability to enforce this is in place. But I will bring a statement back to the Chamber.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Questions now from the party spokespeople. Welsh Conservatives spokesperson, Mark Isherwood.

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

Diolch, Lywydd. As you consider the future for building resilient communities as the changes you’ve announced go forward, a lot has been happening with local area co-ordination, supporting residents and communities to, quote, ‘get a life, not a service’, driving collaboration between local people, families, communities and organisations to build something bigger and more sustainable alongside the people and the communities themselves. What consideration have you given or will you give to the conversations around local area co-ordination that started in Monmouth in 2013?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

My team have already started a discussion with the local service delivery boards, which were, effectively, the operations management of Communities First. That is also expanding now to community groups and other interested agencies, and I’m sure my team would be delighted to look at the proposals the Member has raised with me today.

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

Further—that was just the start, because local area co-ordinators in Swansea are working on the principle of getting to know people, their families, and communities, to build their vision for a good life, to stay strong and connected, and to feel safer and more confident for the future. Again, could you consider the work that’s been developed in a number of local authorities, with cross-party support, in many parts of Wales?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

Indeed. I think we shouldn’t close the door on community engagement in any way. We should think about how best effective support for communities can be delivered with communities, not to them.

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

Well, thank you, and the biggie—it’s not in Wales, it’s in Derby, because local area co-ordination in the UK began in Derby in 2012, building on the very successful model implemented in Australia, which provides evidence of positive outcomes for citizens and savings. In Derbyshire, an independent evaluation by Derby university over 10 to 12 months found savings of £800,000 for the health and social care economy and also found that this had introduced and built relationships, established trust, worked to the person, using people strengths, and built connections with families and citizens to create solutions for those communities. This convinced the local authority and NHS there to invest and expand to all 17 council wards. So, if a project that has 50 people can improve lives, reconnect communities, and save £800,000, will you give serious consideration to how this model could be embraced here?

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

Thank you. I was slightly relieved, because I thought the Member was going to invite me for a trip with him to Derby, but I’m glad he didn’t do that, because I would hate to refuse him on the floor. But I think the Member’s got a really interesting point there about looking at what works in communities, and it’s something that I will ask my team to look at closely. We have got some already effective programmes working in Wales that meet the demands of communities with communities. A Derby or Australian model—it’d be something that I’d be very interested to look at.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

UKIP spokesperson, Michelle Brown.

Michelle Brown (UKIP, North Wales)

Thank you, Presiding Officer. Until 1970, thousands of children from across the UK were forcibly deported to countries across the Commonwealth as part of an unconscionable governmental policy that tore young children away from their families and sent them across the globe to be used as cheap labour, to be neglected and sometimes abused. What measures have you taken to ascertain how many Welsh children were deported under the child migration programme since the 1950s, many of whom may still be alive today?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

We are working very closely with the UK Government in terms of the commission around abused children. I understand my team have already started discussions to talk about children who were sent to different countries and what those numbers look like. But there is an operational helpline for people who wish to disclose historic abuse; they are able to talk to people in this country now.

Michelle Brown (UKIP, North Wales)

Okay. Thank you for that answer, Cabinet Secretary. The children’s lives were totally torn apart, and they were torn away from their families. What support are you able to offer to try and reunite them with those families?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

Well, of course, the first port of call, really, is for the disclosure or contact by these young—older people now, but when they were young and sent off to other countries, it must have been very frightening for most of those individuals. We have professionally trained individuals to deal with those contact points, subject to people coming forward.

Michelle Brown (UKIP, North Wales)

Thank you. I’m very pleased to hear that, Cabinet Secretary. I’m sure you’re aware that the alleged sexual abuse of children deported under the programme is currently being investigated by the independent inquiry into child sexual abuse, as part of their investigation into the protection of children outside the UK. What input will you be having into that investigation?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

My team meets with the officials of that independent inquiry on a regular basis, and we supply all information that’s relative to that inquiry. We will help and support them do their job.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Bethan Jenkins.

Bethan Sayed (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

Cabinet Secretary, last summer, the very first question I asked you was about the data collection and publishing in relation to anti-poverty schemes, which was a key recommendation of the Communities, Equality and Local Government Committee in the previous Assembly. Can you tell me what progress is being made on this, and when we can expect to see better data collection and measurement?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

All the issues that we’ve introduced, in terms of performance and data measurement, are around the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015, and we’ll be judged in the future on the performance of that. The indicators of that Act are important, to make sure that we are delivering for Wales what we say we’re going to deliver, in turning communities around in a positive way.

Bethan Sayed (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

I appreciate what you say in relation to that, but, of course, we’ve still got many schemes that are based on current data and past data. And I’ve been speaking recently to a range of organisations, which have told me that they were unable to find data on outcomes for 29 out of 35 European social fund community funded programmes since 2007, despite funding being recently extended to 2020. So, since there is still a clear lack of measurable data, what was the basis for extending this particular funding?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

Well, I’m not aware of the particular programmes that the Member raises with me today, but if she’d like to give me some more detail, I will give her a fuller response to that comment. The issue around the 2020 deadline is that the European funding is available until 2020, we are aware. And we will continue to draw down that as long as we possibly can.

Bethan Sayed (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

One of those projects was Communities for Work, and I’ve raised this many times with you, not only here, but in committee also. So, I think that’s one example that you could, potentially, look at and get back to me on. But, with regard to the future of your anti-poverty strategies more generally, I have had it also put to me that the problem with many schemes in the past is that they don’t measure the long-term outcomes, and actually end up with data that can be misleading. So, for example, somebody who gets a job via the Communities for Work programme is counted as a success, in and of itself, regardless of whether they’re still in that job in a few weeks’ time. But we all know poverty of people in work remains a huge problem. So, how is that particular scheme and others like it judged a success, when I’ve just outlined that it’s very hard for you to understand whether they’re in it for a week, or a fortnight, or a month, after they actually get that particular work placement?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I recognise the Member’s point. I would say that the access to work is one element of success. The long-term success is about making sure that we can sustain employment. But the experience that people go through on the course itself is a very core skill for those individuals, to grow into the opportunities to get into work in the first place. So, one output of getting a job and sustaining that is important, but there are other aspects of that course that are important as well. I will write to the Member with details of that. But, if she wishes to furnish me with the full detail of her question, I’m more than happy to ask my team to respond to her.

Bethan Sayed (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

3. Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on progress in implementing the financial inclusion action plan? OAQ(5)0123(CC)

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I thank the Member for her question. Since publication of the financial inclusion delivery plan in December 2016, we have progressed many of the actions, by working with partner organisations across all sectors. An annual update will be published in December 2017, setting out the progress we’ve made.

Bethan Sayed (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

Thank you very much for that answer. As part of your financial inclusion strategy, credit unions are required to provide outreach services and education, such as school savers clubs. But when I introduced the Financial Education and Inclusion (Wales) Bill, one of the key things we identified after consultation was the availability of these services throughout Wales. There would be some schools that will be amazing at doing it, and a school down the road that wouldn’t have anything at all. What can you assure me will be done to work with credit unions, so that they are not struggling to provide these services, when, potentially, funding for them could be reduced? We need to ensure that organisations that go into schools can do so across the board, as opposed to just having expertise in one school and not in the other.

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

Yes, of course. I think consistency is really important. The professionalism of the service is important too. We’ve done a lot of work with credit unions. Credit unions have provided £20.4 million worth of loans to more than 25,000 financially excluded members between April 2014 and September 2016. The latest funding of £422,000 was made available in 2017-18, which will help credit unions continue the financial support for excluded members and deliver action plans within the financial inclusion strategy.

I will consider the Member’s point in regard to consistency in areas and see what advice comes back. But I did visit a great credit union in Jayne Bryant’s constituency in Pill only a few weeks ago where the young people were starting to save for fantastic things that they wanted to buy for the future.

Suzy Davies (Conservative, South Wales West)

The financial inclusion plan states that its vision is for a Wales where, amongst other things, everyone can

readily access their own money, whether by automated or over-the-counter means.’

That’s a quote from it. Tomorrow, I have finally managed to get a meeting with the HSBC bosses in Maesteg, where they’re planning to close their branch there. I appreciate you can’t comment on individual potential closures, but I do want to be able to tell them what pressure you can bring to bear on them, so that they take notice of your financial inclusion plan, particularly in areas where the cumulative effect of closures has a disproportionate effect on individual communities, perhaps who aren’t even well linked to broadband.

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

Suzy Davies, you can take from me my support for your meeting tomorrow with HSBC. Tell them that I hope that they can continue to support your community and many communities across Wales. A bank is a very organised centrepiece of a community, and we should continue, as much as we can, to encourage them to stay in the communities that you represent and I represent.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

4. What assessment has the Cabinet Secretary made of the impact in Wales of recent UK Government policy announcements on welfare reform? OAQ(5)0116(CC)

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I thank the Member for Ogmore for his question. We have assessed the impact in Wales of the UK Government’s welfare reforms being introduced between 2015-16 and 2019-20. Welsh households will lose an average of 1.6 per cent of their income. That’s around £460 a year, equivalent to £600 million a year in Wales as a whole.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

I thank the Cabinet Secretary for that answer and for clarifying the impact. He will know that, a year ago, before the last March budget, the then Secretary of State for Work and Pensions resigned over the then pending cuts to personal independence payments—the PIPs—arguing that the cuts were indefensible in a budget that benefitted higher-earning taxpayers. And in resigning, he said:

There has been too much emphasis on money saving exercises and not enough awareness from the Treasury, in particular, that the government’s vision of a new welfare-to-work system could not be repeatedly salami-sliced.’

This year, there is further tightening of the PIP regime through a statutory instrument, rather than on the floor of the Commons in full public view. Some Conservative MPs have expressed deep disquiet over this, not least after a Minister said he wanted to focus on the ‘really disabled’, for which he has subsequently apologised. So, will the Cabinet Secretary commission an up-to-date examination of the impact of these and other very recent UK policy changes on people with disabilities, and on rates of poverty in Wales, perhaps through the office of the auditor general, so that we can assess the damage to individuals and communities, and with that evidence, present the UK Government with the true impact of these policies?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I thank the Member for his question. I did speak to the Minister of State for Disabled People, and she wrote to me following her announcement stating that this was not a policy change in regard to payments, and it would not result in any personal independent payment claimant receiving a reduction in the amount of PIP previously awarded to them. However, it does appear that the UK Government is seeking to overturn the upper tribunal judgment, which would increase eligibility for PIP. I’ve asked my officials to follow up with her department, to seek clarity around that, and the impacts for people with disabilities and health conditions here in Wales.

Steffan Lewis (Plaid Cymru, South Wales East)

A number of organisations have published comprehensive analysis, and academics and Government, on the impact of UK welfare reform on Wales. I’d like to ask the Cabinet Secretary—not going against the spirit of what the Member for Ogmore said—but perhaps we can go beyond analysing the impact to seeking solutions made here in Wales. Will the Cabinet Secretary therefore commit to publish a Welsh Government White Paper on creating a strong Welsh social safety net? This could include looking at how we could maximise powers that are already in competence, looking at strengthening partnership with local government and other service providers and maybe, dare I say, even, looking to the future, the possibility of transfer of certain social protection responsibilities from Westminster to Wales. So, will he commit to publishing a Welsh Government White Paper for a new humane Welsh approach to social security?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

We have undertaken work about the risks to the UK welfare system in Wales. I’m sure that the UK Government would be delighted to transfer the risk to Wales, and they have done in the past around council tax benefits, where we were pushed some money across from the M4, but not enough, and I’m sure they will continue to do that. What we are seeking to do is maximise the support for people who need that in Wales and we’ll continue to do so in the future.

Dawn Bowden (Labour, Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney)

Cabinet Secretary, I’ve raised, previously, concerns with you over the impact of the Westminster Government’s changes to the local housing allowance from 2019 and the impact that that will have on Wales, compounded, I think you’ll agree with me, by the disgraceful decision that was taken last week to remove housing benefits for young people between the ages of 18 and 21.

A study that was commissioned by Merthyr Valleys Homes looked at the level of frozen local housing allowance in comparison to the average private rental rate in Merthyr Tydfil and identified a difference of up to £7.35 a week that would have to be met by the tenant. As I understand it, part of the changes will see moneys currently paid as housing benefit devolved to Wales. Can the Cabinet Secretary advise me what discussions he or his officials have had with the UK Government on how that level of devolved funding will be determined and what assurance he can give that that will be ring-fenced in some way to help the most disadvantaged by the freezing of the LHA?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

The LHA differences affect some communities more than others. It will be something on which I will have a discussion with my colleague the Cabinet Secretary for finance—to have further discussions with the Treasury, as and when he has those, on a regular basis.

Mohammad Asghar (Conservative, South Wales East)

5. What plans does the Welsh Government have to improve support for communities to reduce child poverty in south-east Wales? OAQ(5)0108(CC)

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

Our priorities for tackling child poverty include improving outcomes in the early years, building a strong economy, increasing employability and supporting parents into work. Empowered and engaged communities will play a vital part in ensuring children in south-east Wales, and throughout the rest of Wales, have the best start in life.

Mohammad Asghar (Conservative, South Wales East)

Thank you for that reply, Minister. When announcing the scrapping of the Communities First programme, the Cabinet Secretary said that he wanted to create communities that can offer children the best start in life. However, the Bevan Foundation has warned that organisations that deliver Communities First and the communities themselves are in a real period of limbo by the scrapping of the scheme. When will the Cabinet Secretary be in a position to remove this uncertainty by announcing his proposal to replace Communities First and will he confirm that reducing child poverty will be a key priority of any replacement scheme in his budget? Thank you.

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I’m slightly surprised by the Member’s question. I’m not sure if the Member was in the Chamber only a week ago when I announced the issue of the transition of Communities First and the programmes. He’ll not see in any of the statements that I made that I was intending to scrap any programme. We have made a very positive proposal for a transition. My team have been out last week meeting the north Wales and south Wales local delivery boards for Communities First to discuss the future and how that will look, with 70 per cent of the funding allocated for this year and a transition funding of £10 million revenue and capital for the next four years. I think it is a great opportunity for communities to start becoming different in the way that they manage resilience for the individual cases that Members have in their own constituencies.

John Griffiths (Labour, Newport East)

Cabinet Secretary, the Flying Start scheme is making a very significant contribution to tackling issues amongst some of our youngest children and delivering considerable benefits in my constituency, but there are some families that are outwith the reach of the scheme due to the postcode nature of accessing that particular provision. So, are you able to say anything today to those constituents of mine, and I’m sure of other Members, Cabinet Secretary, who are outwith the scheme at the moment as to whether it might be extended and have a wider reach?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

Well, we should say, ‘Congratulations and thank you’ to the Flying Start staff right across Wales. In South Wales East, we’ve reached around just under 10,000 children in that area, supporting them with services for their families. With the transition from Communities First into the new community resilience programmes, Flying Start and Families First are part of the integrated approach to delivery of services, and I’m looking to support that with a flexibility in that approach, where the people in need outside of that area may have the opportunity to access Flying Start or Families First or adverse childhood experiences profiling, which will help, I hope, your community and communities right across Wales.

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

6. How is the Welsh Government promoting fire safety in Wales? OAQ(5)0111(CC)

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

We continue to support the Welsh fire and rescue authorities to improve fire safety. We have provided £1.4 million for them this year.

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

Diolch. Responding to your 7 February statement on safer communities, I referred to press reports the previous day of an 11 per cent increase in deliberate fires in Wales the previous year, which had diverted from other 999 calls and diverted fire crews away from their other priorities. Ten days later, press coverage of Welsh Government figures reported a third increase in deliberately started grass fires in Wales last year, with some 2,604 grass fires started on purpose. When you replied to me on 7 February, you referred to the previous Minister having had a joint meeting with local authorities, fire authorities and the police, but, given these significant increases now on your watch, what action have you or will you be taking with the relevant authorities?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

Well, the results speak for themselves. Fires have more than halved since devolution and the responsibility for fire services has come to Wales. The Member is right to raise the issue of it peaking in grass fires. Look, any fire that is set like that is unlawful, and I encourage the authorities, or individuals who have any information about that, to tackle that by ringing the police in this case. I do meet with the fire authorities on a regular basis. I met them only last week. I will discuss how critical this issue is with them, in regard to the grass fires specifically, as we move forward into spring.

Jenny Rathbone (Labour, Cardiff Central)

Obviously, arson is an extremely serious offence. I want to pay tribute to the fire services who turned out so promptly at a deliberate arson attack on a vehicle in Llanedeyrn on 15 January, because, without that, there would have been serious loss of life. But I also want to pay tribute to the Cardiff youth services and their work with the South Wales Fire and Rescue Service to ensure that young people who deliberately set fire to things are really aware of the potential dangers. They’re not targeting anybody in particular; they think it’s just a recreational activity. So, the Phoenix project, the young firefighters scheme and the fire setting intervention scheme seem to me to be three things that really do help young people understand that setting fire to anything is a very dangerous activity, and something to absolutely be avoided.

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I thank the Member for her question. I agree with the Member—I’m incredibly proud of our firefighters across Wales. We have a great service, and, indeed, South Wales Fire and Rescue Authority provides several fire safety programmes to young people in Cardiff and beyond. These are funded by the Welsh Government and provided in collaboration with public and third sector partners, and they’ve proven highly effective in keeping young people safe from fire and reducing deliberately set fires in particular. This also goes hand in hand with work by the police liaison team, and it’s something that we recognise does have a big impact where we have intelligence of where there is some risk of young people setting fires.

Hannah Blythyn (Labour, Delyn)

7. Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on the future of community support projects in north Wales? OAQ(5)0120(CC)

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I thank the Member for her question. The Welsh Government will continue to provide core funding for county voluntary councils across Wales, including CVCs in Conwy, Denbighshire, Flintshire, Gwynedd, Isle of Anglesey and Wrexham. In addition, community support projects will be benefiting from the Communities First transition, legacy funding and the employment grant.

Hannah Blythyn (Labour, Delyn)

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. Following on from the announcement of the intention to phase out Communities First in its current form and the shift of focus onto employability-type programmes, I’m sure you’re already aware, Cabinet Secretary, of the numerous employability programmes in Flintshire that are providing support not only to prepare people for the world of work, but to also enable and empower them into work—projects such as the Building Futures course in bricklaying skills, and the brilliant one that I saw on a recent visit to Ysgol Maesglas in Greenfield. It is a brilliant initiative they’re doing there to work with the parents on an employability programme. Of course, we’ve got the Lift programme, which has seen over 200 participants, and partnership programmes with Lift on social care. Cabinet Secretary, are you able to provide a further update on the future sustainability of such projects and perhaps provide an idea of alternative support that could be made available for any projects that don’t fall directly under the future criteria under the new employability scheme?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

There are two elements to that. There is a transition period where we will provide 70 per cent of the funding to prepare Communities First clusters to start thinking about what the future looks like and how they are able to attract other finance sources. Also, we’ve made an £11.7 million investment through the employability programme, Communities for Work, Lift, and PaCE. We’re continuing proposals as we drive that forward.

The other priorities for local authorities or for delivery boards will be a matter for them in terms of the amount of funding available to them and how they can work with the Communities First current settlement to move forward for the future. I’m confident that, given time, they will be able to adjust the programmes accordingly.

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

When you announced that you were phasing out Communities First, my response referred to the ‘Valuing Place’ report commissioned by the Government, based on research in three communities, including Connah’s Quay, somewhere I think you’re very familiar with. They found that establishing local networks to connect people together who want to take local action should be of priority.

In the answer you’ve just given, you referred to the delivery boards and local authorities, but how do you respond to the article from the Bevan Foundation in their spring 2017 publication exploring what the idea of resilient communities is, stating that community buy-in is essential and there’s a consensus that, if people feel that policies are imposed on them, the policies don’t work?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

Well, that’s always the case, isn’t it? I think you get that with political parties and political will across the spectrum. My intention is to make sure that public services boards and local authorities are very close to their communities. We legislated on this, about engagement being a critical part of involvement in decision making. I would expect any authority that moves into a transition period from Communities First to engage with the communities that they work with, so that we can build this from the ground up as opposed to doing things to communities, working with them to make sure the ideas come from the centre.

Siân Gwenllian (Plaid Cymru, Arfon)

8. Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on funding plans under the Community Facilities Programme for 2017/18? OAQ(5)0109(CC)[W]

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I recently announced an additional £4 million for the community facilities programme in each of the next four financial years. This brings the total available for projects in 2017-18 to £6 million. Priority will be given to applications seeking to improve the sustainability of facilities serving Communities First communities.

Siân Gwenllian (Plaid Cymru, Arfon)

Next week, it will be 11 months since Canolfan y Fron submitted an application for a grant from this programme. Delays within the Government are putting the whole project at risk. It’s also almost nine months since GISDA—a vulnerable young people’s charity—sent in their application, and they are still waiting to hear whether they have been successful in their bid. The Government had pledged that they would have received a response by October. I’ve written to you a number of times over the last few months on this issue, and in your response to one of my letters, four months ago, it was mentioned that a decision was about to be reached. But there has been still no response. Both of these organisations make a considerable difference to the lives of many people in my constituency, but they are being held back significantly because of a lack of information from the Government. Will the Cabinet Secretary inform us today the exact date that GISDA and Canolfan y Fron will learn whether their applications have been successful?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

If the Member wishes to keep pushing me on a response, rather than me giving her a measured response to this process—. Will they be getting any funding today? No, they won’t. If that’s the response the Member wants, I can give her that today. Actually, the Member would be much better off waiting for me to make a collective decision on how we’re going to allocate this funding, and we will do that shortly.

Suzy Davies (Conservative, South Wales West)

Well, I’m pleased to hear of the additional investment, at least. The community facilities programme guidance says that local authorities, health boards and other public bodies, as well as businesses, can be partners to local organisations who want to make a bid to the fund. But, it appears to me that most of the projects are administered through the local authorities. It’s difficult to see how easy it is for local organisations to work with private businesses and use the wealth of skills and information that they have. Would it be possible for you to tell us how many programme projects work with local authorities as compared to those working with local businesses? What kind of encouragement do these businesses have to actually collaborate on this?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

That’s a really interesting question that the Member raises. I don’t have the detail on me today, but I will write to the Member with notice of that. I’m really keen for as much involvement and third-party activity around these programmes as possible. Rather than single access points, I think, actually, we gain much more from the private sector and public sector working together with volunteers to create a community facility. I will give that some further thought, but, as I said in my response initially, my concentration of this fund now will be in Communities First areas in terms of transition.

Paul Davies (Conservative, Preseli Pembrokeshire)

9. Will the Cabinet Secretary outline the Welsh Government’s regeneration priorities for Pembrokeshire? OAQ(5)0110(CC)

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

The regeneration priorities for Pembrokeshire continue to support the communities through a range of regeneration programmes that underpin sustainable development.

Paul Davies (Conservative, Preseli Pembrokeshire)

I’m grateful to the Cabinet Secretary for that response. As the Member for Mid and West Wales said in earlier questions, last night I hosted a reception here in the Senedd with Milford Haven Port Authority to learn more about their investment plans for the local area, which will significantly transform the Milford Haven area as we currently know it. In light of their plans, can you tell us what discussions you’ve had about how the Welsh Government can support the authority’s regeneration plans? Can you also tell us what additional support the Welsh Government can offer organisations such as the Milford Haven Port Authority in order to encourage future investment in Pembrokeshire?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

Of course, and I think there are some opportunities there about working in partnership. Under the Vibrant and Viable Places framework, we are supporting Pembrokeshire County Council with a £2.25 million town-centre loans scheme, which is a 15-year recyclable loan grant. This will, I hope, be able to reduce the number of vacant and redundant sites and premises in town centres like Pembroke, Milford Haven and Haverfordwest. So, we are already taking significant actions with the authority, in terms of a new offer for the area that the Member represents.

Simon Thomas (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

I welcome what the Cabinet Secretary has just said about regeneration in the port of Milford Haven, but I wanted to ask him in particular about other communities in Pembrokeshire that are more difficult to reach for regeneration and support. Following his decision to change—well, to withdraw—over a period of time from Communities First, I was particularly concerned as to what now could be delivered for the Gypsy and Traveller community in Pembrokeshire. I asked the First Minister some of these questions in the Committee for the Scrutiny of the First Minister in Carmarthenshire as well, and I’m still struggling to understand what the Welsh Government’s approach will now be to tackle these communities.

I intend to visit one of the communities in Pembrokeshire in the next month or so, and I’d like to take them a positive message from the Welsh Government about how they will be supported going forward, particularly on how educational opportunities and support for young people in Gypsy and Traveller communities will be achieved. What can the Cabinet Secretary tell me that I can take to my constituents?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I don’t know when the Member is visiting the site, but what I can do is try to ask one of my officials to join him in order to have a conversation with the young people and Gypsies and Travellers on that site to see what actions they’re seeking to happen. I think we have a very positive Gypsy and Traveller strategy, and I’ve got a team of officials who work with Gypsy and Traveller families very closely. The educational attainment levels of Gypsy and Traveller families and their children is an important factor that we consider. I would be happy to ask one of my team to come along with you to visit this site.

Hannah Blythyn (Labour, Delyn)

10. Will the Cabinet Secretary outline the measures the Welsh Government is taking to tackle harassment against women in Wales? OAQ(5)015(CC)

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

The Welsh Government is committed to working with all of its partners to tackle harassment against women in Wales. Violence against women is unacceptable in all of its forms. It is right that, on International Women’s Day, we raise awareness of the issues many women are still facing.

Hannah Blythyn (Labour, Delyn)

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary, for that response. Concerns have been raised with me about how cases of harassment are dealt with—with the necessary and appropriate sensitivity and seriousness—by those who work in front-line public services. Cabinet Secretary, are you able to provide reassurance on the work being done to prevent harassment with those in front-line devolved public services? Also, what work is being done with non-devolved public services, such as the police, to ensure that cases of harassment are dealt with correctly?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I thank the Member for her question. I take a zero-tolerance approach on bullying, harassment and abuse. I wouldn’t care if somebody was a friend or a political ally—if they cross the line, there can be no compromise on this: this is wrong. I am confident that we are working across Welsh Government to address the long-term entrenched inequalities. Objective 4 of our strategic equality plan sets out the actions that Welsh Government will take to reduce the instances of all forms of harassment and abuse. We should all take a responsibility in making sure that this happens in our public sector bodies.

Angela Burns (Conservative, Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire)

Back to the Mothers Affection Matters event earlier on today, Cabinet Secretary, listening to some of the people who gave their stories, they talked about harassment turning into abuse from a very, very early age. I’d like to just reinforce the calls made by Sian Gwenllian, and I think others yesterday, for healthy relationships training and counselling and development in schools. If we can train young children, young girls and boys, young men and women to respect and cherish each other, then we will have gone a long way to stopping harassment and abuse of women and men in their more adult lives.

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

You don’t need to convince me on this argument. I am working with the Cabinet Secretary for Education to see how this is achievable and we will, hopefully, have something positive to say shortly.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary.

3. 3. 90-second Statements

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The next item on our agenda is the 90-second statements. Julie Morgan.

Julie Morgan (Labour, Cardiff North)

Cofio Val—Remembering Val: Val Feld was the AM for Swansea East and it’s fitting that we remember her here on International Women’s Day. Val was passionately committed to equal opportunities and social justice. She was one of the key architects of devolution: one of the leaders of the ‘Yes for Wales’ campaign. The embedding of equal opportunities in the Assembly is largely due to the work of Val. We worked together when I was an MP in Westminster pursuing the Secretary of State at the time to ensure that the principle of equality of opportunity for all people was included in the first Government of Wales Act in 1998 and was to become the bedrock of this Assembly. She was relentless. She saw devolution as an opportunity to make Wales a more equal and more socially just society.

Val had a remarkable record of public and voluntary service: she was a founder of Shelter Cymru, recognising the plight of the homeless and the importance of housing, and she was a director of the Equal Opportunities Commission for Wales from 1989 to 1999. She was also a mother and a partner. Some of you knew her during her short period as an Assembly Member. When she spoke, everyone listened. She spoke authoritatively, she had a wealth of experience and principles to bring. The sky was the limit for Val and her potential was tragically cut short with what turned out to be a fatal illness. I remember visiting her in Swansea with Jane Hutt shortly before she died. We miss her very much.

Rydym yn ei cholli yn fawr iawn.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Russell George.

Russell George (Conservative, Montgomeryshire)

The Bards of Wales’ is a poem that can be recited off by heart by many Hungarians, but in Wales little is known of this poem, written by Janos Arany in 1857. Just a few days ago marked his two-hundredth anniversary of his birthday. After refusing to write a poem celebrating the emperor of Austria, Franz Joseph, following a failed revolution in 1848 against the empire, Janos wrote ‘The Bards of Wales’, which recounts a legendary story of rebellion at which 500 Welsh poets were slaughtered by King Henry I at Montgomery castle after they refused to sing his praises as their conqueror.

While Arany’s nineteenth-century poem is still taught in schools in Hungary, many living in Montgomeryshire and across Wales have never heard of it. So, I’m pleased to spread the word today. Last Thursday, a special televised celebration of his life—the life of Janos Arany—was held in Budapest, attended by the Hungarian President, at which Arany was presented with a posthumous honorary status of ‘Freeman of Montgomery’ by the mayor of the town.

4. 4. Motion to Amend Standing Order 23 in relation to Public Petitions

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The next item is the motion to amend Standing Order 23 in relation to public petitions. I call on a member of the Business Committee to move the motion—Paul Davies.

Paul Davies (Conservative, Preseli Pembrokeshire)

Formally.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? The motion is therefore agreed, in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

5. 5. Debate by Individual Members under Standing Order 11.21(iv): The Foundational Economy

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The next item is the debate by individual Members under Standing Order 11.21 on the foundational economy. I call on Lee Waters to move the motion.

Lee Waters (Labour, Llanelli)

Diolch, Lywydd. As we were reminded last week by the speculation about the future of Ford in Bridgend, and the month before by the debate around the future of Tata Steel, our economy is profoundly vulnerable—vulnerable to the decisions of foreign-owned multinational corporations, vulnerable to external shocks like Brexit or oil price fluctuation, and vulnerable, like all modern economies, to the long-term impacts of climate change, food insecurity and energy scarcity.

The purpose of today’s motion, tabled in my name and in the names of my colleagues Jeremy Miles, Vikki Howells, Hefin David, David Rees, and my friend David Melding, is to consider how you might use the framing of a new economic strategy for Wales to think about how the Welsh Government can help our communities build resilience to these threats. My colleagues will explore some of the ways a foundational approach will make a difference in practice. In my opening remarks, I’ll focus on the case for change.

Lee Waters (Labour, Llanelli)

We’ve been trying a variation on the same theme in Welsh economic policy now for several generations, and we are running to stand still. Our national wealth level, or gross value added per head, has barely shifted in 20 years since we promised that the creation of a National Assembly would create an economic powerhouse for Wales. Two decades on, and we continue to search for a magic bullet—that much-loved transformational project. If only we could get a few high-profile inward investment projects and hope against hope for another Admiral Insurance, which, by the way, remains Wales’s only FTSE 100 company, almost 25 years after it was founded. And while we search desperately for a ribbon to cut, the day-to-day economy of our communities continues to tick over.

Today’s motion is a plea to look at what is hiding in plain sight, and discuss what we might do to nurture it—the mundane economy, as Professor Karel Williams has described it. Now, his is a name you’ll hear a few times this afternoon, I’m sure. Along with his colleagues in Manchester Business School, he’s done much to give life to the idea of the economy of the everyday, the so-called foundational economy. As a son of Llanelli, Karel Williams has taken the forlorn state of the town I represent in our National Assembly as a case study in what can be done to bolster the bits of the economy that have been left behind after the heavy industry that inspired their creation has gone.

It’s the foundational economy that underpins the social fabric of our communities, and penetrates even our most disadvantaged neighbourhoods. The industries and businesses that are there because the people are there, the food we eat, the homes we live in, the energy we use and the care we receive. This isn’t a small part of our economy; it accounts for about four out of 10 jobs and £1 in every £3 we spend. Our focus has been on anchor companies employing more than 1,000 people in one place, but there are more than 3,000 people employed in making sofas across Wales, and they don’t feature in any economic strategy, but this is the type of unglamorous activity that forms the bedrock of our local economies.

Globalisation has seen us look the other way as local producers have been crowded out of the market by foreign-owned subsidiaries, who often pressure Welsh suppliers to drop their prices and ship the profits overseas. If we get it right, the foundational economy approach offers the chance to reverse the deterioration of employment conditions, stop the leakage of money from our communities and reduce the environmental cost of extended supply chains. There are big hurdles that stand in our way—it’s pointless to pretend otherwise—and rather than ignoring them, I’d like to confront them head on.

The first is undoubtedly cost. Public sector spending—the £5.5 billion we spend every year buying in goods and services—is often cited as a direct means of boosting our foundational economy. But just as the drive to reduce budgets has led to the domination of large-scale privatised companies in the delivery of our public services, so too a reversal of this trend will require investment. Local businesses will need increased support to bid and deliver public sector contracts. We need to invest in higher skilled staff in local government with specialist procurement skills, and most likely the cost of goods and services we buy at the end of it all will go up, and we need to be honest about that. To achieve any genuine restructure will require significant investment, and a recognition that short-term financial gains should be deprioritised in favour of longer-term benefits, and we must be honest about that, too.

But the realities of our economic landscape and of impending automation make it costly not to. I’ve spoken before about how the eruption of computers being able to learn for themselves means that human brains, as well as human hands, are now in danger of being replaced by machines and algorithms. Accountants, underwriters, clerks and analysts—whole rafts of professions are profoundly vulnerable. In total, an estimated 700,000 jobs are at risk of automation in Wales alone. And whilst the high-value, knowledge-based jobs that will remain following this second wave of automation will hold considerable attraction, we must ensure that the jobs at the other end of the spectrum—those that make up the mundane bedrock of our economy—do too.

The second equally valid argument against ploughing scarce resources into the foundational economy is that it is radical and an untested approach. But as I set out earlier, our existing economic strategy has been tested—it’s not working. Our failure to rejuvenate our economy through conventional approaches has meant we’ve had to plough money into anti-poverty programmes and employment support programmes to mop up the mess. But the attraction of the foundational economy is that it would address both the weakness of our economy and the social consequences of it. And, yes, it is radical—that’s the point. We are facing a confluence of public disaffection. Brexit and the fourth industrial revolution—our operating environment is changing radically and we must do likewise. We must move away from the orthodox and give experimental a go, because failing to take notice of our foundations means we risk our entire fragile economic structure crumbling. Diolch.

Adam Price (Plaid Cymru, Carmarthen East and Dinefwr)

It’s a pleasure to follow the Member for Llanelli and I congratulate him and his colleagues for securing this important opportunity to create some space for new thinking, for the reasons that he has eloquently outlined—we certainly need them, don’t we? I think Karel Williams has said that there’s a word in Welsh for actually repeating the same mistake over and over again, it’s called ‘twp’. And we simply will replicate the failures of the past unless we’re prepared to experiment in the radical way that the Member has suggested.

We should not, of course, shy away from the fact that what the foundational economy and, indeed, other sets of related ideas—the work of Mark Lang on deep place, and Dave Adamson on the distributed economy—represent together, I think, a coherent critique and alternative to the economic policy paradigm that has prevailed over many a generation, which essentially is almost the mirror opposite, indeed, of what has been served up to us as conventional thinking. So, whereas the foundational economy has two core elements, really, which is sheltered markets—local sheltered markets—and grounded firms, we have been focusing on global markets and foreign-owned firms, with little appreciable long-term economic benefit. And so, I think it’s time to turn the world the right way up as far as the Welsh economy is concerned.

It’s going to take, I think, a huge concerted effort, which will take some years and probably efforts across party, I think, to defeat the prevailing paradigm. It is so deeply embedded in our thinking—look at the apprenticeship levy: we actually take the retail sector out of the apprenticeship levy, whereas, actually, in terms of the long-term benefit of employees in that sector in communities, looking at driving up the skills base in a sector that has been bedevilled by low-skill, low-wage labour, you know, is the way that we should be going. So, we need unconventional approaches. I do hope the Welsh Government will create a national innovation body. But that national innovation body, to drive up innovation—in all sectors, in all areas—should not be captured by the old, narrow science and technology global-market-facing version of innovation, because innovation needs to be there at the heart of our foundational economy as well.

So, there are very, very significant challenges, but that is no reason for us to shy away from the opportunity. We will have a new economic strategy unveiled, I believe, in the next few months, over the spring period. Now is the time for the Cabinet Secretary to be bold. The answers of the past have failed us.

One of the themes that Karel Williams and his team have referred to and talked about is the missing middle strand. And one of the problems that many of our successful medium-sized companies have faced, time after time—Rachel’s Dairy, Avana Bakeries, I suppose, is another example of it—is that, when we create success from within our grounded firms and we create successful medium-sized businesses, of course, they reach a point, often due to succession planning, where people want to exit, and yet, of course, we have no means at our disposal, at the moment, of keeping that ownership, keeping that grounded firm grounded, and we all know the results of that.

The policy challenge, to go from the meta to the very specific. The development bank that we are creating, will it be based upon the ideas in terms of finance that are being promoted by Karel Williams and his team? Not the venture capital model, not actually getting people to cash out, but actually creating long-term finance. As I referred previously, La Caixa, the charitably owned bank in Catalonia, which actually takes long-term stakes in businesses that are deeply rooted within their economy, has the double benefit, not just of developing and generating a dividend for the charity that owns the bank, but also making sure that those successful companies stay successful for generations to come.