Senedd Cymru (Welsh Parliament), 5 April 2017

286 contributions from 41 members. The official report.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

I call the National Assembly to order.

1. 1. Questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Environment and Rural Affairs

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The first item on our agenda this afternoon is questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Environment and Rural Affairs. Under Standing Order 12.58, I have received notification that the leader of the house, Jane Hutt, will answer questions today on behalf of the Cabinet Secretary. Question 1, Simon Thomas.

Simon Thomas (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

1. Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on the well-being of exotic animals in Wales? OAQ(5)0128(ERA)[W]

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

The welfare of all kept animals is covered by the Animal Welfare Act 2006, which has been in place for 10 years. The codes of practice on companion animals and livestock are under review, and the introduction of any new codes, including for exotic animals, will be considered in 2017-18.

Simon Thomas (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

Thank you for that response, Minister, but the problem with the current situation is that it allows people, for example, to keep monkeys in ordinary houses, and it also allows circuses with live exotic animals, and which perform with those animals, to visit Wales. We have been waiting for some months, if not a year or two, for the Government to take action in this area. So, can you give us an assurance that steps will now be taken by Government to deal with the health and welfare problems of exotic animals in Wales?

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

I thank Simon Thomas for that question. Officials have met with representatives from the Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals Cymru to discuss the briefing document calling for a ban on exotic pets, and further meetings are going to take place on that. We’re talking about mobile animal exhibits as well, and a scoping exercise under the partnership delivery project is also being undertaken to gather information from local authorities on MAEs currently active in the area. And the results of that exercise are due to be presented very shortly, this month in fact. And, also, there’s going to be a consultation that officials are working on, on establishing a licensing or registration scheme in Wales, and this is due to be launched before the summer recess.

Mike Hedges (Labour, Swansea East)

I remain unconvinced of the merits of people keeping exotic animals as pets, especially primates, or those animals who have to eat other live animals in order to feed. Many people are unable to effectively look after these animals, and either let them loose into the wild, which causes problems, or end up banned from keeping pets. Will the Minister consider setting up a task and finish group to look into the creation of a register of people banned from keeping pets?

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

It’s interesting and important to record as well that the keeping of certain species of wild animals is controlled by the Dangerous Wild Animals Act 1976, and the owners of these species are required to be licensed by their local authority under the Act. The creation of an animal abuse register is being considered, but the effectiveness of its existence as a deterrent in either future, further abusive actions taking place, or in terms of prevention of animals being owned by a former abuser, will require mechanisms, and a clear, cross-sector agency approach. So, officials are exploring what engagement with others would be required and have noted the RSPCA’s call for the establishment of a task and finish group.

Suzy Davies (Conservative, South Wales West)

Well, as you indicated, leader of the house, it isn’t just exotic animals, but wildlife that comes into this, including our domestic wildlife that find themselves sometimes being cared for by people whose interventions come with the best interests, but perhaps not the best welfare information. I know that Welsh Government has started to look at this, but I’m wondering whether there is any progress on the regulation of wildlife sanctuaries and wildlife hospitals, and whether there’s any indication of whether you might be looking at the courses that are run for vets, or continuing professional development for vets actually, to upskill them to have a wider range of knowledge, not just in exotic species, but in our own domestic wildlife species as well?

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

That is another extension of the concerns that are raised, particularly in relation to animal welfare. I will certainly ask the Cabinet Secretary to respond to you, particularly in relation to those wildlife hospitals and other settings that you describe.

Joyce Watson (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

2. What is the Welsh Government doing to help promote the production of healthier food? OAQ(5)0122(ERA)

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

The Welsh Government’s small business research initiative, supporting health and nutrition projects, is further seeking to develop innovative projects that will significantly improve the nutritional composition of food and drink available to children. Projects can compete for a share of up to £1 million for these developments.

Joyce Watson (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

I thank you for that answer, and this is really, really good news, because we all know that, by the age of 11, 40 per cent of children are obese in Wales, or they’re overweight, and that is a very, very unhealthy state for children to arrive at in such an early age. You did mention the £1 million funding from Welsh Government and Innovate UK, and that it will be open to companies and research organisations, to help them find that innovation in producing this food. But, I will ask, leader of the house, how do food innovators in Wales apply for that funding, and what is the criteria that will be needed to meet and qualify for that funding?

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Well, tackling obesity, as Joyce Watson says, is a key priority—a key priority for the Welsh Government—and supporting people to access a healthy, balanced diet is crucial to this. And, last month, I spoke on behalf of the Cabinet Secretary at the Blas Cymru/Taste Wales event. That was the first ever national and international trade event and conference for the food and drink industry. And it was at that event that we invited businesses and organisations across the industry to submit proposals for this £1 million development. And, of course, this was encouraging them to develop innovative solutions to improve the nutritional composition, for example, of school meals, whilst driving down costs.

So, just a couple more words on the criteria. We’re suggesting innovative solutions could improve nutritional composition of food and drink available to children, drive down the cost of nutritious food and drink for families, schools and local authorities across Wales, increase the variety of healthy and nutritious food and drink available to children in all settings, reduce the prevalence of obese children and adults in Wales, and improve the health and well-being of children through to adult. And this small business research initiative is there to support and enable the responses from the food and drink industry to meet this challenge.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Ynys Môn)

Is the leader of the house aware of the report of the Mental Health Foundation, ‘Food for thought’, which looks at the link between nutrition and mental health? Now, I believe that the kind of strategy on obesity that we’re calling for through the public health Bill—.

Am I okay to continue? I will start again.

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Thank you. No, please move on.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Ynys Môn)

I believe that the kind of obesity strategy that we’re calling for through the public health Bill could promote mental health, as well as physical health. But, does the leader of the house believe that that should be a consideration as part of the Government’s food strategy, in addition to being part of strategies in the sphere of health?

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Diolch yn fawr, Rhun ap Iorwerth. As you’re aware, and you’ve drawn attention to these links, in terms of the evidence, in terms of mental health needs and impacts. As you know, at the Stage 2 scrutiny of the Public Health (Wales) Bill, amendments were tabled to place a duty on the Welsh Ministers to prepare and publish a national obesity strategy. And, although those amendments fell, the Minister for Social Services and Public Health gave a commitment to consider a national obesity strategy further, with a view to bringing forward amendments at Stage 3 on this issue. It’s also important to recognise that the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015 places a well-being duty on public bodies, and the importance of health impact assessments, to consider how, systematically, we can ensure decisions and plans can contribute to reducing obesity and increasing physical activity levels.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Questions now from the party spokespeople. The Welsh Conservatives spokesperson, David Melding.

David Melding (Conservative, South Wales Central)

Diolch yn fawr, Llywydd. Cabinet Secretary, yesterday, the Institute of Welsh Affairs published its report on funding renewable energy projects in Wales—here in the Neuadd, I’m pleased to say—and it identified the difficulty in raising capital, or particular difficulty in Wales. And I’d like to ask you will the Welsh Government be taking note of the recommendations of this report and responding to them positively.

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

We certainly welcome the IWA’s contribution to what is the transformation of Wales’s energy system. We’re already delivering on many of the areas that were highlighted in the report, and we look forward to working with the IWA to further develop their ideas to benefit Wales.

David Melding (Conservative, South Wales Central)

Cabinet Secretary, the report urges the Welsh Government to use its levers ambitiously right across the scope of its activity to develop a sustainable energy strategy and, although the UK Government has a role to play as well, to focus on what the Welsh Government can do in terms of business rates, but also the public sector, which is a big purchaser of energy, and that we need to use our levers very, very effectively. Will you be urging your Cabinet colleagues to look at this in a holistic way?

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

We will, of course, and this is a cross-Government issue. We have begun to explore options providing further access, for example, to low-cost finance and equity solutions, using Welsh Government funds to leverage any further financial investment in order to remove barriers to capital, which you mentioned earlier on. I will say though, of course, that the greatest barrier to further deployment of renewable energy is the lack of a suitable funding support mechanism at the UK level.

David Melding (Conservative, South Wales Central)

I’ve been nice to you so far, but I note that barb. [Laughter.] In an attempt to move us back on to consensus, or a consensus, the report says that, to encourage more community-owned schemes, we need to look at greater use of co-operatives to attract funding. The Welsh Government talks big in this area and has a lot of support across the Assembly in doing that, but I hope that you will pick up that part of the report most enthusiastically because there is a great degree of empowerment that could go on, and using that model in terms of its general ability for regeneration and not just for renewable energy is a key way of perhaps addressing some of the shortfall in attracting funding that we’ve traditionally suffered from.

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Yes, and, David Melding, of course, you are acknowledging that that’s within the grain of the direction in which the Welsh Government would want to take us, and we’ll look with interest at those recommendations around the co-operative model. We invested £35 million by the end of the last financial year on energy projects and, indeed, £5 million in the local energy fund, separately providing direct loans to some of the community projects most at risk. So, it’s clearly important to look at that recommendation in terms of the way forward.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

UKIP spokesperson, Neil Hamilton.

Neil Hamilton (UKIP, Mid and West Wales)

Thank you, Llywydd. I’m sure the leader of the house is aware that the biggest headache for many farmers in Wales at the minute is the vexed issue of bovine TB. This is a vitally important issue in the context of the Brexit negotiations because it’s possible that the EU might use the TB situation in Wales as some kind of justification for banning exports of beef and other meats. I wonder if, therefore, she can give us any idea of when the current consideration of the result of the consultation on the refreshed TB eradication consultation will be published.

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

The consultation on the TB eradication programme—the refreshed programme—closed on 10 January. The Cabinet Secretary is currently considering the responses, and I’m sure that Neil Hamilton will be as pleased as the Cabinet Secretary to hear that there were a significant number of representations—993—a large number of which were from farmers.

Neil Hamilton (UKIP, Mid and West Wales)

Indeed. I was wondering though whether we could have any idea of how long the Cabinet Secretary is likely to take before she’s able to announce what proposals the Government might have. There are a number of relatively uncontroversial things that it would be helpful to have some advance indication on. For example, many farmers are worried that, whatever testing regime emerges from this, it is practical and takes account of the facts of life of being a livestock farmer. Tests that fall at inconvenient times, such as when the harvests are occurring or when cattle are calving, would be very, very difficult. Also, there’s another issue that ought to be borne in mind, namely that there is currently a county parish holding rationalisation programme going on, and many farmers are concerned that this would add further complications to what’s already a very complicated situation, if that’s not taken account of in the Cabinet Secretary’s decisions.

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

A statement on the refreshed TB eradication programme will be made in early May, but I think it’s also important and relevant to note that new incidences of bovine TB in Wales are at a 10-year low. Progress has been made, with over 95 per cent of Wales’s herds now being TB free.

Neil Hamilton (UKIP, Mid and West Wales)

Perhaps unrelated to the consultation that is going on at the moment, can I draw attention to a problem with the testing regime as it is at the minute? A strict liability regime is applied to the testing of cattle. If you fail to test within the 60-day window, then you automatically are fined, in effect. But very often we find cases—it’s possible that the leader of the house may have had constituency cases in her postbag along these lines—where a test has had to be abandoned because cattle become agitated, or even violent, and it’s unsafe in health and safety terms for the testing to continue. In those circumstances it’s possible, indeed highly likely, that the retesting can’t take place within the window and the farmer will automatically therefore attract penalties, even though it will be for something that is actually beyond his control. So, what I’m asking is: can there be some flexibility introduced into the testing regime, so that where events beyond the farmer’s control prevent compliance, he will not then attract penalties or there will be some mitigation?

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Well, the controls and testing regimes are a crucial part of the TB eradication programme in preventing onward transmission of disease, but of course now, as part of the project to examine the TB situation at a more local level, we have a dedicated TB epidemiologist and a team of vets looking at the disease across the country and working through that in terms of the issues that are raised, of course, in terms of those affected.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Simon Thomas.

Simon Thomas (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

Thank you, Presiding Officer. Leader of the house, yesterday the National Assembly agreed that one of the responses to the decision to leave the European Union should be the introduction of a continuation Wales Bill in order to uphold Wales’s constitution and convert into Welsh law all European legislation related to devolved policy areas. It’s true we voted 9-6, which is more like a rugby score than a vote of the Assembly, but nevertheless it was a majority. What is the Government’s view now on this proposal, and does the Government recognise the importance in particular of enshrining EU environmental law into Welsh law in order to protect public health and the economy as well as the environment?

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Well, I’m glad to have the opportunity to follow up from that debate, Simon Thomas, to say we’ve been absolutely clear that we will not tolerate a power grab from Whitehall, and it’s unacceptable for the UK Government to take powers currently exercised by the EU over devolved areas. Of course, this is crucial to the point you raise in terms of agriculture and the environment.

Simon Thomas (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

I thank the Minister for that statement and I look forward to seeing very firm proposals from the Welsh Government to ensure that that does indeed take place. In particular, I want us not to rely on the UK Government to represent our interests here in Wales, and looking at air pollution in particular as an area, we are already hearing of some extreme measures—some would say ‘extreme measures’, some would say ‘necessary measures’—for dealing with air pollution. Sadiq Khan, the Mayor of London, is introducing a higher rate of congestion charge for very polluting vehicles; the Prime Minister has hinted at a scrappage scheme to ensure that diesel car owners are not blamed for the previous Labour Government’s mistake over promoting diesel cars, to declare an interest. So, what input now is the Welsh Government having into ensuring that the interests of the people of Wales are represented in terms of public health and social justice in UK Government proposals around a UK-wide pollution plan, bearing in mind there are 6,000 premature deaths from air pollution in Wales a year?

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

We are firmly committed as a Welsh Government to improving air quality across Wales. We support and provide guidance to help local authorities fulfil their responsibilities, particularly in terms of reviewing local air quality, with regular assessments and monitoring. But you will be aware, of course, that the Cabinet Secretary undertook a public consultation in Wales on how local air quality and noise management can be improved, and, in fact, in response to that the Cabinet Secretary published a written statement on 30 March. Our next steps have to be taken forward in terms of issuing new statutory guidance to local authorities, new guidance to local health boards, and launching by 24 April—and this is important to your question—a joint consultation with the other UK administrations on a new air quality plan to achieve the EU nitrogen dioxide limit values for Wales and the rest of the UK within the shortest possible time.

Simon Thomas (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

I thank her for referring to that consultation, due to begin on 24 April. I look forward to seeing how that works out between the different devolved administrations. There is, however, as we are talking about nitrogen oxide emissions, one very big polluter here in Wales—Aberthaw power station—which has already been found to be in breach of EU law and putting out double the amount of toxic nitrogen oxides from 2008 to 2011. We are still awaiting a programme to set out how emissions will be reduced at Aberthaw, and this is the responsibility of the licensing authority, Natural Resources Wales.

On 8 March, the Cabinet Secretary for Environment and Rural Affairs responded to me on questions around Aberthaw, saying that she expected to meet with Natural Resources Wales on 15 March to discuss whether there had been a proper proposal from the owners of Aberthaw setting out how they will reduce the emissions from that power station. She also said she’d be happy to provide an update after that meeting. I appreciate, of course, she can’t be here, but are you, standing in for the Cabinet Secretary, in a position to inform us and the public of Wales now whether there is a programme in place for Aberthaw power station to reduce these harmful emissions?

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

I’m pleased to report an update on behalf of the Cabinet Secretary that, on 1 April, Natural Resources Wales concluded the Aberthaw environmental permit modification exercise, with the issue of a new environmental permit for Aberthaw. This new permit contains a lower nitrogen oxide emissions limit, in line with the judgment of the Court of Justice of the EU. Aberthaw must now comply with the new nitrogen oxide emissions limit. Officials will continue to monitor the situation. Any changes to Aberthaw’s coal supplies and operational regime, of course, are commercial matters for RWE.

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

3. How is the Welsh Government helping people in fuel poverty in North Wales? OAQ(5)0124(ERA)

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Our key programme for tackling fuel poverty, Welsh Government Warm Homes, includes the Nest and Arbed schemes. Since 2011, we have invested over £217 million to improve the energy efficiency of over 39,000 homes across Wales. Over 9,000 of these homes were in north Wales.

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

Thank you for that. It takes me back to a decade when we were convincing your previous colleagues in Welsh Government that a fuel poverty strategy includes energy efficiency but is a social justice issue. Age Cymru have said that many of the mechanisms and measures combined within the Welsh Government’s 2010 fuel poverty strategy are out of date and no longer applicable, saying that the time is right for the Welsh Government to refresh its fuel poverty strategy.

At both the Fuel Poverty Awareness Day cross-border north Wales conference in February and the Wales annual fuel poverty conference, we heard that, whilst the Welsh Government’s investment in energy efficiency schemes through its Warm Homes programme is commendable, we need a step change in ambition and the scale of resources earmarked. How, therefore, will the Welsh Government engage with the Wales Fuel Poverty Coalition, most of whose members you already work with in different contexts, over their statement that we drastically need a new fuel poverty strategy in Wales?

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Since 2011, we’ve invested over £217 million in Welsh Government Warm Homes to improve over 39,000 homes. The important point about this, Mark Isherwood, is that, in households on low incomes or living in the most deprived areas of Wales, improving the energy efficiency of low-income homes delivers multiple benefits. It helps to tackle and prevent ill health, reduces carbon emissions, creates jobs and energy and improves educational attainment. A recent report by Public Health Wales estimated that investing in insulation and heating also, to address cold and damp housing, can have a huge impact. We know that the most effective way in which we can tackle fuel poverty in the long term is to improve the energy efficiency of homes, and we’re doing this effectively through Welsh Government Warm Homes.

Michelle Brown (UKIP, North Wales)

Welsh households in fuel poverty are currently being asked to pay from their own pocket to subsidise windfarms and solar parks so that landowners can profit—£300 on an annual bill may not sound much to you on a Cabinet Secretary’s salary, but it’s a great deal of money for a low-income family. When are you going to give poor households a break and abandon subsidising these white elephants?

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

In terms of our Warm Homes programme, the most important scheme that you should draw your constituents on low incomes’ attention to is the Nest scheme, which actually delivered estimated average energy bill savings of over £400 per household. Let me go back to the issue of how we tackle fuel poverty. The most recent data indicate that fuel poverty in all households has reduced from 29 per cent in 2012 to 23 per cent in 2016—a reduction of 6 per cent in just four years—and we’re levering in up to £24 million of EU funding. Now, I wonder if you’re going to be supporting us in trying to ensure that we get that funding replaced when we Brexit, because it is quite clear that EU funding has also helped tackle fuel poverty in Wales.

Nick Ramsay (Conservative, Monmouth)

4. Will the Cabinet Secretary outline the Welsh Government’s priorities for developing the agricultural sector in Wales? OAQ(5)0127(ERA)

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Agriculture is a vital industry to Wales and a crucial backbone of the Welsh rural economy and environment. We’re working in partnership with stakeholders to secure a prosperous and resilient agricultural sector.

Nick Ramsay (Conservative, Monmouth)

Thank you, leader of the house. In answer to Neil Hamilton’s question earlier, you said that a large percentage of herds are currently TB free. This is little consolation for farmers I met with recently in Dingestow, a TB hotspot in my constituency. They’re concerned that whilst the statistics point to a decline in the number of herds affected by the disease over time, this can be attributed to a falling number of herds and, consequently, larger herds, thus masking the true extent of the TB problem in Wales. Will the Welsh Government look again at the way these data are collected so we can gain a true picture of the number of animals affected by TB in Wales, and then we can get on with the job of tackling the dreadful disease that is afflicting wildlife and livestock across Wales?

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Yes, well, I’m sure Nick Ramsay would also have been pleased to hear the significant number of representations to the consultation, particularly from farmers, and I’m sure from the farmers in your constituency as well.

If I can just, perhaps, say a bit more about the project that is being undertaken, including the TB epidemiologist and team of vets looking at disease across the country, because you may be aware that we’ve identified areas in Wales that fall into three categories based on the level of disease in each area—high, intermediate and low—so that we can have a more targeted approach to tackling disease in different areas. With that more regional approach it does enable us to apply different controls in different areas, depending on the disease situation and the risk in those areas, which, of course, does start to address some of those issues. And you know, we have to look at—. When the measures that we’re consulting on are put in place, the low TB area could be the first TB-free area of Wales, and then one of the immediate benefits, of course, to the families in the low TB areas would be that pre-movement testing would no longer be required. So, there is, you know—. I think, wait until the response from the Cabinet Secretary comes out, because many of those points might be answered.

Siân Gwenllian (Plaid Cymru, Arfon)

Mae Bil diddymu arfaethedig Llywodraeth y Deyrnas Unedig yn bygwth datgymalu setliad cyfansoddiadol Cymru yn llwyr, gan gynnwys pwerau Llywodraeth Cymru dros faterion sydd wedi eu datganoli, fel amaethyddiaeth. Yn dilyn y bleidlais ddoe, yma, ar y ddadl ar danio erthygl 50, mae’r ffordd yn glir ar gyfer Bil parhad yr Undeb Ewropeaidd i Gymru. A ydych yn cytuno bod Bil parhad yn angenrheidiol er mwyn sicrhau mai Llywodraeth Cymru fydd efo’r pwerau i ddatblygu’r sector amaethyddiaeth yng Nghymru, fel sy’n gallu digwydd ar hyn o bryd o dan ein setliad datganoledig? A ydych chi hefyd yn cytuno y byddai Bil parhad yn rhwystro’r Torïaid yn San Steffan rhag dwyn pwerau oddi wrth ein Senedd cenedlaethol ni?

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Well, I’m glad I had the opportunity to respond earlier on to Simon Thomas that we’re absolutely clear: we won’t tolerate that power grab from Whitehall. Also, I feel we have, between us, with our ‘Securing Wales’ Future’, put forward a very clear and workable approach to developing any, for example, UK- wide frameworks that might be needed in terms of devolved areas. We have said, and I think the First Minister said yesterday, that our preferred option remains a UK repeal Bill that properly recognises and protects the devolution settlement. We will forcefully argue this in bilateral discussions with the UK Government and in the Joint Ministerial Committee, but we have also been considering the issue: we abstained yesterday on your amendment and we continue to give it consideration in terms of the continuation Bill proposal.

Llyr Gruffydd (Plaid Cymru, North Wales)

5. What discussions has the Cabinet Secretary held with Severn Trent regarding water services in Wales? OAQ(5)0125(ERA)[W]

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

The Cabinet Secretary for Environment and Rural Affairs has met with Severn Trent Water, following the acquisition of Dee Valley Water, to discuss the Welsh Government’s expectations regarding the new licence, job security, customer bills, and how the process will move forward now that the acquisition is complete.

Llyr Gruffydd (Plaid Cymru, North Wales)

Thank you for that response, because previously, of course, the Cabinet Secretary refused to respond, perhaps because she was concerned that she would be involved with some future decision on the future of the water industry. You referred to jobs—can I ask you what assurances she’s received in her negotiations that the level of jobs that were once in Dee Valley Water will be maintained in the new arrangements?

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

The Cabinet Secretary has met, and did meet, with Severn Trent Water twice, and I recall that she reported on this to press the need for a transition that runs smoothly and benefits Wales, because we recognise the uncertainty for those affected by the acquisition of Dee Valley Water. She’s met with them to discuss how to align the Welsh Government’s policy in relation to the water industry, but also to look at implications in terms of how to protect the local workforce, local jobs, the community and customers.

Russell George (Conservative, Montgomeryshire)

Leader of the house, a constituent has raised an issue with me in regard to damage to properties in the Llandinam area of my constituency, which they believe is caused by Severn Trent’s abstraction operations in the area. Can I ask you what role Natural Resources Wales has in ensuring that Severn Trent take responsibility for their actions in regard to ensuring that the activities they undertake aren’t affecting the environment?

Can I also ask, taking into account the reports that a number of properties have raised with me in regard to significant sinkage to fields and cracking and subsidence of properties, if I supplied either you or the Cabinet Secretary with that relevant information, would you commit to raising this matter with Natural Resources Wales?

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

I think that example—. The Cabinet Secretary, her officials and Natural Resources Wales need all examples, as, indeed, the one that you cite this afternoon. It is important to note that Severn Trent have been active members of the Wales water forum since its establishment, and do engage regularly, through that forum, with Welsh Government and, indeed, the regulators.

Michelle Brown (UKIP, North Wales)

6. Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on the Welsh Government’s position regarding the export of live animals for slaughter? OAQ(5)0130(ERA)

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

The Welsh Government recognises live animal exports for slaughter are of concern. We have legislation to protect animal welfare during transport and would prefer animals to be slaughtered close to their point of production, and consider a trade in meat to be preferable to the long-distance transport of animals.

Michelle Brown (UKIP, North Wales)

It’s a pity that I didn’t hear a clear proposal or support to ban live exports there, leader of the house. Thousands of live animals are being exported to the European Union and beyond, sometimes to countries where animal welfare standards are very low or non-existent. I also note that your Government has chosen not to make it mandatory for slaughterhouses to install closed-circuit television to ensure compliance with welfare standards. How can you claim that animal welfare in Wales is safe in Labour’s hands if profit means more to you than welfare, which I presume is what lies at the basis of your answer?

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

The Welsh Government is—. If you want Government to actually listen to you, I think you listen to the answers that are given you, and also look at the law as well. The Welsh Government would prefer for animals, as I said, to be slaughtered as close as practicable to their point of production, and, as I said, consider a trade in meat and meat products to be preferable to the long-distance transport of animals to slaughter, but the live export trade is, however, a lawful trade. Now, how do we address that? The Cabinet Secretary for Environment and Rural Affairs has agreed a new partnership structure between the Welsh Government and heads of trading standards, with more effective enforcement actions on key animal health and welfare matters, which will include welfare during transport.

Andrew RT Davies (Conservative, South Wales Central)

Leader of the house, obviously, as you just pointed out, the export of live animals under very specific conditions and stringent animal health protections is a lawful practice, but one thing that would help add value to livestock here in Wales would be to have a very strong processing sector. The cattle sector, for example, has very limited capacity and is concentrated in very few hands. In particular, we’ve already seen redundancies at the large site in Merthyr. What assessment has the Welsh Government made of the strength of the processing sector here in Wales and how potentially it could support the agricultural community in adding value to livestock here in Wales, rather than having to export the primary product for others to add value to it?

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

That is a helpful question, because I think it follows up my point about what the Cabinet Secretary is doing in terms of establishing that new partnership structure with those who are responsible for effective enforcement actions, the heads of trading standards. And also to recognise that the Animal and Plant Health Agency undertakes risk-based inspections of livestock destined for export at their point of departure, and local authorities conduct inspections under the Welfare of Animals (Transport) (Wales) Order 2007, and they’re responsible, as I said, for enforcement and prosecution where breaches are identified—but, clearly, strengthening the process is vital in terms of addressing this issue.

Jenny Rathbone (Labour, Cardiff Central)

7. What contingencies are in place to deal with the potential of there being no replacement of EU farming subsidies from the UK government after Brexit? OAQ(5)0126(ERA)

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

There’s a clear need for the UK Government to provide the long-term commitment to replace the vital EU funding that currently comes to Wales. However, we are working with stakeholders on possible post-Brexit scenarios, and our engagement with the round table is a critical part of this work.

Jenny Rathbone (Labour, Cardiff Central)

I’m sure the leader of the house will be aware that this is a major food security issue, that any Government needs to be able to guarantee everybody access to fresh, unadulterated food. There are many issues involved here, not just the food miles that might be required to deliver food if we saw the collapse of our agricultural industry—the well-being of citizens, which would have a huge impact on NHS budgets. So, I just wondered what specifically is being done to ensure the resilience of rural communities in light of the fact that most farmers rely on up to 80 per cent of their income from the current basic payments.

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

I thank Jenny Rathbone for that question, because it is important, food security is important to us in Wales, and I think I’ve mentioned that round table discussions are a key engagement—key stakeholders working together to submit a proposal to the rural development plan as part of the co-operation and supply chain development scheme, which will build on, for example, the work of Horticulture Wales, which is very important. I think the recognition that diversification opportunities can allow additional family members to engage in the farming business, providing greater security for the future of family businesses, which, of course, is going to come as a result of that approach—. But it is important, I think, to recognise that the Cabinet Secretary has given a boost to rural communities with the £223 million boost in terms of the opportunities for the rural development programme, which will help to address those issues.

Leanne Wood (Plaid Cymru, Rhondda)

Plaid Cymru’s entire approach to the exiting of the European Union is to make sure that no-one in Wales is worse off than they were before. Now, the agricultural industry could be one of the big losers in any post-Brexit settlement. In 2014-15, direct payments from EU funding accounted for an average of 81 per cent of net farm profit for all farm types in Wales. The UK Government has confirmed that funding for agriculture will continue at its current level until 2020 and, following that, farmers in Wales will have no certainty that there will be a replacement of EU farming subsidies. Plaid Cymru believes that the UK Government owes the agricultural sector the same level of funding, post leaving the EU, as is currently delivered under the common agricultural policy, as was promised by those people who campaigned to leave the European Union. Future funding must be delivered through the block grant, and the Welsh Government must also commit to using this funding to support agriculture and the rural economy. Can the Cabinet Secretary give assurances that, as well as representing the interests of Wales’s farmers as strongly as possible in negotiations with her Westminster counterparts, the department has begun working on a comprehensive plan covering the various eventualities regarding funding to ensure that we have a secure future for farming in Wales?

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

I thank Leanne Wood for that question, because it also brings us back to important points of discussion in recent days and weeks. The First Minister, indeed, has also expressed his significant concern that we still have no long-term commitment from the UK Government to replace the vital funding that currently comes to Wales from the EU. Can I also say that it was good to see Paul Davies, the Conservative shadow agriculture secretary, fighting to get the best Brexit deal for farming? So, we can work together on this.

But it is very important, in terms of the leader of Plaid Cymru’s points, and very much expressed in our White Paper, that we not only fight for assurance about the funding that will follow 2020, but also that we are working, as I said, to ensure that we have future prospects for our agriculture sector in Wales. That is where we are getting a great deal of support, and I think that’s been very clearly recognised from farming unions and other stakeholders.

Paul Davies (Conservative, Preseli Pembrokeshire)

I’m grateful to the leader of the house for those very kind comments. Now, farming subsidies are, of course, essential to support farmers, and are crucial for the sustainability of the agricultural industry. And, Llywydd, I should declare an interest, given that my parents-in-law run a dairy farm. Now, given the importance of these payments, can you therefore tell us what specific research the Welsh Government has carried out since the referendum result regarding the current levels of subsidies received by farmers across Wales?

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Well, clarity on future funding arrangements is a key issue that’s been raised at the Brexit round table meetings and workshops, which started straight after the outcome of the referendum. I think, in terms of resilience for the post-EU transition period, this is crucial for farmers, food producers, landowners and all those who live in our communities. The schemes that we’re looking at, of course, are farm business grants, Glastir Advanced, the food business investment scheme, co-operation and supply chain development, Glastir Woodland Creation, and the rural community development fund. That’s why, also, in terms of resilience and this period of transition, the Cabinet Secretary has fully committed the remaining EU element of the rural development fund. But what we need is more than the guarantee, and that’s where I now challenge you, the Welsh Conservatives and the shadow agriculture Secretary, to ensure that your voice, as well as our voice, is heard very clearly, and that that voice is clearly heard in the UK Government and we get those commitments for our farmers in Wales.

Gareth Bennett (UKIP, South Wales Central)

8. Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement about the environmental impact of illegal off-road motorcycling in Wales? OAQ(5)0129(ERA)

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Illegal and irresponsible vehicular use off-road can have a detrimental impact on the natural environment, as well as on the enjoyment and safety of other users, land managers, and local communities in Wales.

Gareth Bennett (UKIP, South Wales Central)

Yes. Thank you for the answer and your acknowledgement of the problem. Is there anything—? Given that the problem seems to be getting worse in some areas, are there any measures that the Welsh Government could take to assist in tackling it?

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

A joint operation between Natural Resources Wales and South Wales Police in November resulted in 22 motorcyclists being pulled up in the operation across known hotspots across Wales. The police, in partnership with Natural Resources Wales, are working closely to target people illegally riding scrambler bikes on publicly accessible land.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

And, finally, question 9, Rhun ap Iorwerth.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Ynys Môn)

9. What steps is the Welsh Government taking to reduce carbon emissions? OAQ(5)0123(ERA)[W]

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

The Environment (Wales) Act 2016 sets a legal target of reducing emissions by at least 80 per cent by 2050. We’re currently developing regulations to establish interim targets and initial carbon budgets, which will to help to drive the transition to a low-carbon economy.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Ynys Môn)

Thank you. I believe that there’s real scope to create an international image for Wales as a nation that is truly promoting electric cars and vehicles, and one area where I believe the Welsh Government can encourage this is through a strategy to exchange the current fleet of public vehicles to one that is zero emissions—from council vans to health board vans to public transport, even. The British navy has just announced an investment in a fleet of electric vans and the charging infrastructure required to support that. It’s only 48 vehicles initially, but it is a start. I intend to resubmit a legislative proposal to this end, and I hope we’ll have an opportunity to discuss this. But does the leader of the house agree with me that there is scope for the Welsh Government to be innovative here in terms of driving this change towards zero-emissions vehicles?

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Well, I think this is a very interesting legislative proposal that we may see exhumed in a debate in due course. I would want to make a very positive response at this stage to what you are proposing, and particularly look at how others have achieved this—others in the public sector, particularly—not just across UK, but further afield.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Thank you, leader of the house.

2. 2. Questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Communities and Children

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The next item on our agenda is questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Communities and Children, and the first question is from Rhun ap Iorwerth.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Ynys Môn)

1. What support can the Welsh Government offer to ensure that deaf people received the relevant adaptations to their homes? OAQ(5)0130(CC)[W]

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I thank the Member for Ynys Môn for his question. The Welsh Government is committed to supporting people to live independently and safely in their own homes. The commitment is supported by funding for equipment and adaptations where appropriate.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Ynys Môn)

At a recent meeting with Action on Hearing Loss, I heard a story about a deaf woman who had a sign on her front door saying, ‘I’m sorry but as I can’t hear the bell I am keeping the door open, so do come in’. Now, clearly that’s not acceptable. What she needed, of course, was assistance in getting the necessary technology to inform her when someone was at the door, to keep her safe. The charity notes that the expenditure on equipment to support people who have lost their hearing has more than halved over the four years up to 2014-15 and there is a huge difference in what’s spent from one area to another. As this is within your portfolio, do you agree that we need a strategy to try to ensure, in future, that funding is provided to those people who need it, to help people such as this woman who are at risk because of a lack on investment in the necessary equipment?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I think it’s irrelevant where the funding stream comes from, whether that be through social services or through the disabled facilities grant or otherwise in this portfolio. I think what’s really important is that we focus on the individual and their needs, and it’s something that, if the Member would wish to write to me on this specifically, I’d be happy to take up on his behalf.

Mike Hedges (Labour, Swansea East)

Can I declare an interest, as my sister is profoundly deaf? Can I just follow on from the point that Rhun ap Iorwerth made? For someone who is deaf, light fulfils the same role as sound does for those of us who can hear. What is being done to ensure that deaf people have a flashing light fire alarm—as a sound fire alarm will have no use to them whatsoever—and, leading on from what Rhun ap Iorwerth said, flashing light doorbells so that they can press the doorbell and it flashes in the house? Because, again, sound makes no difference, and I agree with Rhun ap Iorwerth entirely, we can’t have people leaving their front door open because they can’t hear people knocking it.

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

These are very simple technological opportunities that we can roll out across Wales. A new health and social services integrated framework for action for people who are deaf or are living with hearing loss was published in February, building on our continued investment in assistive equipment and technology. My colleague Rebecca Evans, the Minister for social services, has responded for the integrated care fund. It is something that I’ve taken note of in terms of the comments made by Members today.

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

I’ll just declare that close family members have received local authority funded adaptations to their homes, and it’s enabled independent living and it’s actually reduced costs on statutory services. In the context of the budget cuts to equipment for deaf people made by some local authorities, and some even indicating they’re moving away from funding equipment despite the fact it does actually save funding for statutory services, what guidance does or will the Welsh Government issue to local authorities on what adaptations or equipment they should be providing as a minimum?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

There is already guidance issued to authorities. I will have a conversation with my ministerial colleague on this very specific issue. This Government is very keen that we move into an early intervention and prevention opportunity, which saves issues, as the Member alludes to, such as long-term health impacts and moving people into adapted properties that actually wouldn’t be necessary if we were to do some small interventions early on. It could save lots of money for the services in the long term. I will have a conversation with my colleague.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Question 2 [OAQ(5)0138(CC)] is withdrawn.

Jayne Bryant (Labour, Newport West)

3. What assessment has the Cabinet Secretary made of the impact of Universal Credit in Wales? OAQ(5)0133(CC)

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I thank the Member for Newport West for her question. We have comprehensively assessed the impact of the UK Government’s welfare reforms, including universal credit. This assessment covers a range of impacts, including the number of households affected, impacts on income and work incentives and wider impacts associated with a single monthly household payment paid directly to claimants.

Jayne Bryant (Labour, Newport West)

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. Universal credit has huge implications for families across Wales, pushing more children into poverty and hitting 18 to 21-year-olds hard. Recently, I hosted an event to launch the innovative research by Cardiff Metropolitan University in partnership with Community Housing Cymru and the Oak Foundation on the implications of the universal credit. The research was undertaken by tenants and is the first of its kind in Wales. One of the findings highlighted the complex, jargon-filled written communications from Government departments and housing associations, which often can be difficult to read and understand. What steps can the Welsh Government take to ensure housing associations, local authorities and others explain coherently and clearly at all times to their tenants?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I thank the Member for a very serious question. Generally, single 18 to 21-year-olds with no children will not be entitled to help with their housing costs when universal credit, from 1 April—this week—comes into force. There are a number of exemptions, including those who are disabled or unable to live at home with their parents. There are approximately 1,000 people affected in Wales, but this does not take into account the extensive exemptions that may apply. This is a very harsh implementation of the credit reform. We do not support this; this is a UK Government intervention. We are very concerned that the number of young people displaced in our communities will increase through this, and I have asked my team to look at this with some urgency.

David Melding (Conservative, South Wales Central)

Cabinet Secretary, a Department for Work and Pensions study found that those on universal credit were 8 per cent more likely to have found a job within 270 days than those who had claimed under jobseeker’s allowance. So, there are aspects of this new scheme that really are working. I do hope you have the grace to acknowledge that.

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

Statistics, statistics, statistics. What worries me is what’s actually happening on the ground in our communities, when I and you will see your postbag filled with people experiencing difficulty with universal credit and the credit reform. It was rolled out first of all in Flintshire in my own constituency, actually, so I’ve seen an increase in pressures there. But I can’t see anybody in this room, irrespective of politics—. The fact that 18 to 21-year-olds now will be having the removal of any housing benefit claim—what happens to those young people? Where do they go for their housing solutions? People will be put on the streets. A thousand young people in Wales are being committed to things that shouldn’t be happening to very young people in our communities.

Lynne Neagle (Labour, Torfaen)

I’m very pleased to hear your strong words on the awfulness, really, of what the UK Government is trying to do to 18 to 21-year-olds, and it’s something that, as you know, lots of organisations supporting young people are absolutely up in arms about and are campaigning against. I welcome what you’ve said about talking to your officials, but will you, working across Government, make the most forceful possible representations to the UK Government to tell them that they’ve made a mistake on this, that it will lead to homelessness for young people, and ask them to think again?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

Indeed, and the Member is right to raise this issue, as many others have. I’ve already met with Shelter Cymru this morning on this very issue. This is of grave concern to us, and we’re looking at some very quick responses to the potential issue of homelessness for young people. We cannot allow young people to be introduced to the streets of Wales. It is fundamentally wrong by the UK Government.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Questions now from the party spokespeople. Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Bethan Jenkins.

Bethan Sayed (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

I recently met with ‘The Big Issue’ and street vendors in Cardiff, and, as politicians and citizens alike, we can do more to help those who are sleeping rough, such as promoting the StreetLink scheme, which allows anyone to call or send an online alert about the location of someone they see sleeping rough, so authorities will then locate them and offer them that support. The expansion of schemes like this, however, illustrates that the number of people sleeping rough in Wales has jumped significantly, and Shelter Cymru has recorded a 63 per cent rise in people needing their service, and this is something that I think we need to tackle and to understand. I want to try and learn about those experiences myself, so I agreed, when I was there—. I don’t know how they managed to influence me, but I said that I would go out and become a ‘The Big Issue’ street vendor so that I could see how many I could sell, in competition with some of the ‘The Big Issue’ sellers. And I wondered, Cabinet Secretary, if you would like to join me one day—anywhere in Wales; it doesn’t have to be Cardiff, in the spirit of the all-Wales approach that we have—to come and sell ‘The Big Issue’ with me, to see how they operate and to see how they are making a living on the streets.

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

Well, the Member may be very surprised, but I would be delighted to join the Member in Cardiff or wherever, to come along with you. I think it’s really important that we experience the real living experience of people who are working or have found themselves on the streets. The other evening, the Member might be pleased to know that I spent 10 minutes sitting in ‘Chippy Alley’ in Cardiff, talking to a young person who was homeless. They were stark conversations we had, about the influence of what is happening to her life, and the vulnerability of her. I think I would be more than happy to come out with you and talk to people in the communities in the area you represent, too.

Bethan Sayed (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

Thank you very much, and I look forward to going undercover and seeing how many we sell and how many we can—. Well, we’ll have a competition, shall we? Let’s see. But to go back to the serious issue, there are of course other ways in which you and your Government can help solve this particular problem, as opposed to just selling ‘The Big Issue’. Placing duties on local authorities to prevent homelessness has improved matters, but has not stemmed the growth in rough sleepers. Is it now time, do you think, to update your homelessness strategy to include a national approach to tackling rough sleeping, getting people off the street and into accommodation, so if there are other issues—such as mental health problems—that can be addressed, we can make sure that they are, and that we don’t have a propensity of people rough sleeping in Wales?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I think when we introduced the legislation around homelessness, we had a fantastic response in terms of a reduction in the numbers, and I pay tribute to local authorities who have been dealing with that. I spoke to Shelter Cymru this morning, and they are very impressed at the pace of the success we’ve had, but I also acknowledge the fact that there have been some other interventions that have happened here that have caused a different dynamic of street homelessness and rough sleepers out there. If you walk through the cities now, you’ll see a younger cohort of individuals being there. The implementation of the 18 to 21-year-old housing benefit cuts this week will increase that. So, there is some work, and I met with the First Minister, also, yesterday, to talk about youth homelessness and the fact that we have to have some urgent pieces of work looking at how we get direct intervention, and it might be by working from the non-traditional way that we provide support. But I’ve already visited some areas where there are some clever interventions about supporting people and housing solutions as well, which I’m really interested in.

Bethan Sayed (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

I certainly concur with the questions earlier about the housing cap. I think that’s a ticking time bomb and something that we have to be campaigning against. But one of the many problems people face when forced into rough sleeping is that, currently, they’re not considered to be in priority need. In the past you’ve rejected phasing out priority need, and defended that decision. And I quote, you’ve stated:

The right balance must be struck between the rights of the applicant and the duties and the burdens that we place on local authorities.’

But as you will know, all the research shows that homelessness itself imposes a bigger cost to public services than preventing homelessness in the first place. Even conservative states in the US have grasped this, and here in the UK, Crisis have modelled the financial impact of homelessness and found that in every scenario, the savings for public services outweighed the cost of preventing homelessness by a magnitude of 3:1 over just one year. And for some scenarios where you assume additional costs, such as frequent arrests and use of mental health services and their facilities, the savings could be as high as 20:1. So, would you, therefore, accept that ending priority need and adopting a housing first policy would save public funding in the long term, and agree to look at this matter again as a matter of urgency?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

As I said earlier on, I think when we introduced the legislation, we were at a point in time where we believed it was the right thing to do. We’ve seen those interventions being very positive. I think now is the time to refresh policy and have a review about what we’re doing in terms of intervention. The evidence is on our streets. We can see people that are homeless and rough sleeping, and, therefore, there must be something out of kilter between the legislation and the implementation. I’m very happy to look at that, and, in addition to Shelter, I met with Crisis as well yesterday. So, I’ve met with a host of organisations that deal with homelessness, because I think this should be a priority for the Government.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Welsh Conservative spokesperson, Mark Isherwood.

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

Diolch, Llywydd. I previously highlighted to you the Young Foundation’s ‘Valuing Places’ report, funded by Welsh Government, and based on research in three areas, including your own home town, and they said that establishing local networks should be a priority. In your foreword to the Welsh Government’s information advice action plan, you say that strong and well-integrated advice services have an important role to play in promoting the well-being and prosperity essential to building resilient communities, and, of course, that’s absolutely correct. Based on the recommendations received from the National Advice Network, your plan states that local and regional networks will be key contributors to both the Welsh Government publication of its independent advice needs analysis and the national advice network, although the first was published in March 2017, and the second working group established in 2017-18. How, therefore, will you accommodate this when your plan also says that working with and encouraging the development of local regional networks won’t happen until 2018 onwards?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

Well, we’ve already started engaging with communities with regard to our longer term vision on the way to have resilient communities. My team have been talking to all the Communities First clusters and their team managers, and with local authorities. We’ve already started work with some organisations around Children First zones, and looking at what that looks like for making sure we get feedback from the communities, as opposed to directly down from organisations like ourselves. So, while the proposals may suggest 2018 in terms of timeline, actually, we’ve started that process already.

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

Okay. Well, one of the local organisations I’ve referred to you, which is delivering an internationally developed, world-class service, is the Eagle House Youth Development Community Interest Company, working in Snowdonia, based on Anglesey, and their young achievers programme, helping to tackle offending by supporting young people upfront. They’ve run two successful contracts with job centres, and continue to deliver across north Wales for them. They’ve also been contacted by local education authorities across north Wales to provide residential behavioural development courses for schools, but they’re still fighting to get their work with prolific offenders, and reducing the offending, off the ground, even with the support of the police offender management unit and probation, and they ask for a meeting with you. Now, I fully appreciate your response, when you said that you provide funding directly to the youth offending teams via local authorities, and it’s for them to commission that service directly from Eagle House. But I ask you again: will you engage directly with them to see for yourself how effective this sort of local network intervention is? And I know you can’t force local authorities, but you can certainly highlight good practice that they may wish to consider. Will you do so?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

Well, I would hope that local authorities were able to get into that space of intervention and support for businesses that can demonstrate they’re having a positive impact. I actually visited Flintshire, who are working with the Youth Justice Board on an enhanced case management programme, which has a massive impact on the reduction of reoffending in a very prolific area of reoffenders. We’ve had some great success there. I’m sure that my team will have heard your question and will talk to the Youth Justice Board accordingly to see if they are able to meet with, I think you say, the Eagle House organisation.

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

Eagle House, yes. Thank you. I would emphasise that they’re a company, but they’re non-profit and are a community interest organisation.

My final question relates to the National Citizen Service operating in England and Northern Ireland, benefiting the personal development of young people, their life experiences and the strengths that employers look for in young people. Three hundred thousand young people have taken part in this programme across England and Northern Ireland, with excellent outcomes. You wrote to the MP for the Vale of Clwyd, Dr James Davies, highlighting the fact that the Welsh Government was receiving £60 million of consequential moneys to include running a National Citizen Service, that a previous pilot project was positive in some respects, and that you promised to work with the UK Government Minister to see what might be developed, based on the National Citizen Service and existing Welsh schemes. Could you provide us with an update on where the Welsh Government are up to with that?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

We’re still in discussions with the UK Government. I’ve had several conversations, and many exchanges, with the UK Government Ministers on this very issue, about the principles of a scheme here in Wales. Now, we already run a volunteering scheme, and much other support, for young people in Wales. And my question to the Minister in the UK was how this would add value to our contribution already. What will that additionality bring to it? The Minister was positive. He said that he would seek to address some of the issues financially. To date, he hasn’t been able to secure any additional funding for us. But my team are in correspondence; I saw a note this week from interventions between the two departments.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

UKIP spokesperson, Gareth Bennett.

Gareth Bennett (UKIP, South Wales Central)

Diolch, Llywydd. I was going to ask you today, Minister, some questions relating to housing and, in particular, the Welsh Government’s involvement in stimulating housing supply. I know that there have been efforts to increase the use of publicly owned land for housing supply. Could you update us on these efforts, also on the operation of the housing supply taskforce, which was set up in 2013?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I think we’ve had great success in delivering more homes for communities across Wales. We exceeded our target in the last term of Government, with over 11,000, working in partnership with the housing sector. This year, we’ve just signed a compact between the housing sector and local authorities. Our proposals to introduce the end of the right to buy will help ensure that investment made by these organisations will be planning for the long term, with more delivery—20,000 more units over this term of Government, supported, very kindly, by the finance Minister.

Gareth Bennett (UKIP, South Wales Central)

Yes, thanks for your answer, Minister. I know that you have the Bill going through to safeguard the social housing stock, as you see it, which is your approach. But I’m looking at the other end of it today—increasing the actual supply, which you are enlightening me as to the efforts that you’re making. Now, another possible area where this could be improved is by the release of brownfield sites. Is your department involved in this area, and are there any initiatives to help release brownfield sites, such as the compilation of toxicology reports?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

Well, there are two areas. My team are already in discussion with Ken Skates, and his department, looking at what land we own as Government. We are also having discussions with the health portfolio, to see, again, whether there is any potential for land usage and stock to be installed there. We’ve just launched a £20 million innovation programme for housing schemes. We’re not short of innovation in Wales, and there are many schemes going through that look at land use, and not just ours, but registered social landlords and others, to use as a catalyst for growth.

So, I think, over the next 12 months, Wales is an exciting place to do business in the housing field. And what we’re seeking to do is something new. If you do the same, you get the same. We’re looking at innovation and doing something different. And things like the universal credit, tackling issues for 18 to 21-year-olds, which we talked about earlier on, are things we’re going to have to address and mitigate with our housing solutions here in Wales.

Gareth Bennett (UKIP, South Wales Central)

Yes, I appreciate there are problems in that area. If we keep to the housing supply angle, which you’ve been articulating, another area is bringing into the housing supply empty homes. I know you’ve had some success with the Houses into Homes scheme. The latest figures I’ve seen indicate that there are around 23,000 empty houses currently in Wales. That’s your figure, by the way. So, is the Government’s Houses into Homes scheme likely to release many more of these empty properties and assist in converting them into residences?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

There are two parts, again, where they will continue with that programme—very successful—but there’s still more to do. I think, again, rather than always building new properties, what we could do is make some interventions of using older properties, if we’re able to make sure that they’re energy efficient and they’re suitable for accommodation. It’s something I’ve asked my team to look at in terms of direct intervention around homes that are empty in our communities that we see.

David Lloyd (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

4. Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on Welsh Government plans for regeneration in South Wales West? OAQ(5)0137(CC)

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I thank the Member for his question. We are currently developing proposals for a new capital regeneration programme. This will complement other strategic investments already under way and build on the success of earlier schemes.

David Lloyd (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

Thank you very much for that answer. The high street in Swansea is clearly a key gateway to the city for visitors as they arrive by train at Swansea’s high street station—the clue’s in the title. It’s benefited from Vibrant and Viable Places funding, over recent years, however not every building in the high street is in pristine condition. The Palace Theatre is a grade II listed building, which has been empty for years and is falling into disrepair. People have been waiting many years for any sign of action. Can I ask you, Cabinet Secretary, what actions you are taking in conjunction with the City and County of Swansea to try and resolve this frustrating situation?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I think that Swansea city council has done a fantastic job in terms of the way that they’re starting to regenerate their community, and £11.76 million has been issued to Swansea council from the Welsh Government in terms of partnership. Public and private investment, totalling around £69 million up to 2017, will be invested in that community, and we are actually seeing a difference in the high street vista. I know where the train station is because, when you come out of the train station and turn right, my plaque is on the side of the wall, when I opened it with regard to Vibrant and Viable Places, so I am familiar with the area.

What’s important here is that we have community intervention, looking at what’s good for the community and how we can make sure that that involvement is continued, but well done, Swansea council.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Cabinet Secretary, Vibrant and Viable Places, as projects in Port Talbot, has seen the regeneration of areas of my town, and you’ve seen for yourself some of the work in the Green Park area. These have been an attractive vision for the local people and for future investors. The announcement two weeks ago by the Ministry of Justice of the siting of a new prison in Baglan, which is less than a mile away from these targeted regeneration projects, could—and I say ‘could’—reverse the positive impact of these projects. I understand that the land being considered by the Ministry of Justice is Welsh Government-owned land. When asked by the MoJ if it would sell the land, will the Welsh Government say, ‘No’ and keep its focus on targeted regeneration in Port Talbot?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I’m grateful for the Member’s acknowledgment of the investment that we’ve made in his constituency, and I’ve been around with him on some of those visits. Again, that is another area that has been dramatically turned around by the Government’s investment.

The matter of the prison is a matter for the MoJ. The planning system is as appropriate as it is for any other system, whether that be a prison or a high-street shop. The land is open to offers by any organisation, and if the MoJ wishes to pursue that, it will be a matter for the MoJ and we will treat that accordingly, under the planning terms and conditions.

Suzy Davies (Conservative, South Wales West)

Cabinet Secretary, I’m familiar with ‘buddleia towers’ as well and I can’t say that I’m over-impressed by Swansea council’s intervention there. But the city deal is better news for Swansea. Perhaps regrettably, it doesn’t address traditional infrastructure or metros, focusing instead on digital highways as drivers for innovation and regeneration. As a result, I’m wondering whether it might not be for Welsh Government, at a strategic level, to kick start an examination of how to improve Swansea’s air quality, examining it within a regional transport plan compatible with the aims of the city deal. Would the Welsh Government look at this so that ideas like monorails and trams and electric taxis and LPG buses don’t disappear from your line of sight just because no-one can agree whether it’s the transport portfolio, the regeneration portfolio or the communities portfolio that takes responsibility for this?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

We’ve got a very joined-up Government and we’ve got a very joined-up community in terms of our interventions with local authorities too. I think the Swansea bay city deal is fantastic for that area and, again, it will be about integrated transport solutions and opportunities of employment. The metro concept is a principle of how communities can be joined up even if they’re not directly affected by the metro. And there is the new franchise condition: how do we make sure that buses or trams, or whatever that may look like for the future, are planned for? I’m sure that the Swansea bay city deal will have that vision as we move forward. It’s got a great team around that provision, with all authorities signed up to that. I hope that that will go from strength to strength post May.

Simon Thomas (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

5. What support is available for Gypsy and Traveller communities in Mid and West Wales? OAQ(5)0135(ERA)[W]

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

The Welsh Government has commissioned the Travelling Ahead project at Tros Gynnal Plant to deliver a new pan-Wales advice and advocacy service. This service will support Gypsy, Roma and Traveller communities to better understand their rights, get good-quality advice and advocacy support, address inequalities, and tackle discrimination.

Simon Thomas (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

I thank the Cabinet Secretary for his reply and can I particularly thank him for his officials who attended a meeting with me on the Gypsy site in Kingsmoor near Kilgettty on Friday. My thanks also to Ruby Price who hosted us in her home for a couple of hours where we discussed Tros Gynnal Plant, the Travelling Ahead project and other needs to support Gypsy and Traveller sites in Pembrokeshire. Can I ask two particular questions arising from that? One of the things that was clear from that discussion is that Gypsy and Traveller communities do build up trust with those who are able to speak on their behalf or intervene or work with them, and the Unity project has done a lot to achieve that in Pembrokeshire. How can we achieve and ensure that what’s been learnt in the Unity project, and the skills that have been built up with individuals there, are transferred in some way to the new project of Travelling Ahead, Tros Gynnal Plant as well, so that there isn’t a loss of confidence? Because, as he will know, in community development that can take two or three years to build back up if you lose it at that stage.

The second question is around the facilities at Kingsmoor in particular. I understand that Pembrokeshire County Council are looking to have a planning application and come to the Welsh Government for a capital fund to expand that site. I hope that he will work with Pembrokeshire, or his officials at least, to ensure that the people on that site do get a fair deal and the best possible opportunity to bid through Pembrokeshire for the money that might be available from Welsh Government.

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I thank the Member for his question. I am aware of the Unity project and I’m grateful for the acknowledgement of my official. I did say that he would come with you and he did, and I’m pleased that it was a successful meeting. I too am concerned about the sharing of good practice and the community cohesion that is built up through a programme like this. It is disappointing to say that while, long term, the Big Lottery was coming to an end, the local authority were aware of that programme coming to an end and could have submitted a bid to Welsh Government to carry on the good work of the Unity project, but failed to do so, which is regrettable. In terms of the capital spend that the Member alludes to, I’m not aware of a bid coming through, but of course I heard the Member’s comments.

Julie Morgan (Labour, Cardiff North)

Can I add my voice to Simon Thomas’s expressions about the Unity project? It was indeed an excellent project and it did work to help bring young Gypsies and Travellers here to the Senedd for the cross-party group on Gypsies and Travellers. They’re uncertain how they’ll be able to come in the future. So, can I ask the Cabinet Secretary if he can think of something that can replace the Unity project in giving the support to enable the young people to come here to see where their democracy is?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

Of course. Julie Morgan has championed the rights of the Gypsy/Traveller community for a long time. Welsh Government has funded a Travelling Ahead advice and advocacy service, operating from 1 April to March 2020. The staff who run the programme will be well known to many mid and west Wales community members, which should support the effectiveness of the service. I will give some further thought to that. I’ve also met with the younger community here at the Assembly, and it was a great visionary opportunity to understand what the impacts are for this community. I will give that some further thought.

Mike Hedges (Labour, Swansea East)

6. Will the Cabinet Secretary provide an update on the building of new homes for rent by Welsh councils? OAQ(5)0128(CC)

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

Thank you for the question. Local authorities have committed to deliver 1,000 new council homes under our new housing pact with the Welsh Local Government Association and Community Housing Cymru.

Mike Hedges (Labour, Swansea East)

Thank you for that response, Cabinet Secretary. In the period between 1945 and 1979—the social-democrat period of British history—a large number of council homes were built. When Britain was governed by those well-known left-wing politicians, Winston Churchill, Harold MacMillan and Stanley Baldwin, Britain built millions of council houses and flats. In the period since then virtually no houses have been built and the actual number has reduced due to the right to buy. Will the Minister join me in congratulating Swansea council on commencing to build council houses at Milford Way and Birchgrove in Swansea?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

Twice in a day, Mike Hedges. Congratulations to Swansea. It’s great to see the local authority building new council properties. Indeed, in my own authority also in Flintshire, with Hannah Blythyn, we’ve got some successful council properties and people living in there already. We are now starting to see the benefit of the housing revenue account subsidy exit with new council homes being built. I’m pleased that Swansea and other authorities are using their vision to ensure that we can make a long-term investment for the social housing stock that’s needed for the future.

Siân Gwenllian (Plaid Cymru, Arfon)

Plaid Cymru supports all efforts to increase the social housing stock too and, of course, Carmarthenshire has been a council that’s been in the vanguard in this area. One restriction that could impact on the ability to build more social housing is the decision of the Office for National Statistics to re-allocate housing associations as public bodies, thereby restricting the availability of funding for the future. So, can you give us an update on what the Government is doing in order to resolve this problem?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

We are in discussions with the housing associations in terms of how we will manage this process. I am confident that we will be able to resolve the issue either through legislation or otherwise.

Suzy Davies (Conservative, South Wales West)

Twice for Suzy Davies as well, Cabinet Secretary. Swansea council’s local development plan has already been delayed, and the new date of March has passed and we’re still no nearer being absolutely sure about what this vision that you mentioned looks like, and the innovation that the council can bring to its plan to bring new rental properties into the housing stock. Now, I’ve raised the point a number of times—with you, as it happens—so now I feel entitled to ask: what progress has Welsh Government made in speaking to the houses in multiple occupation sector about converting excess capacity into new, longer term homes? And can I ask, therefore, what advice Welsh Government has given to councils about acquiring those centrally located properties themselves to bring them into the councils’ social housing stock to complement new build?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

Well, I think this, from an earlier question, is about what housing solutions are fit for the future and what their needs are. I haven’t got an issue with using HMOs if they’re appropriate for new housing solutions. I did visit, with Julie James and Mike Hedges actually, in Swansea, looking at HMO provision. Suzy, you would have been more than welcome, but I wasn’t familiar with your diary engagements. The fact of the matter is, what we’ve got to do is be innovative and look at all options for Wales. I think the HMO sector—. Because there have been developments of more student accommodation in block form, HMOs now are moving out of that system; therefore, there is an opportunity for us to use them.

Darren Millar (Conservative, Clwyd West)

7. Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on the Welsh Government’s commitment to extend entitlements to free childcare? OAQ(5)0129(CC)

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

Our childcare offer aims to provide working parents of three and four-year-olds with 30 hours of Government-funded education and childcare for up to 48 weeks a year. We will begin piloting the offer in specific areas of seven local authorities from September of this year.

Darren Millar (Conservative, Clwyd West)

I’m well aware of the pilots, and I want to thank the Government for making the statement about those very recently, but I am concerned—very concerned indeed—at the National Day Nurseries Association’s comments this week regarding the capacity of the private sector who want to work with the Government, as you will know, to achieve the delivery of this very important commitment. I am concerned about the capacity of the sector to meet those demands, and the fact that there’s no plan currently between the private sector and the Government in order to work that capacity up over the next few years so that you can meet this challenging commitment. What work are you doing behind the scenes in order to make sure that there is capacity so that you can deliver on this important promise?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

Well, I also read your press release, and I also read the comments in the newspaper. The comment says,

30 hours of free childcare scheme may not be possible’

which doesn’t mean it isn’t possible. The fact is that the NDNA are part of the working group moving this forward. It surprised me also that they made comments in the media as opposed to coming to talk to us.

May I say that the working group is working well? The private sector is not the only option in terms of the delivery of this model, and therefore we have many options moving forward. The pilots will give us a better sense of delivery, but I’m confident that we’ll be able to deliver the most comprehensive childcare programme in the UK by this Government by the end of this term of government.

Vikki Howells (Labour, Cynon Valley)

The Welsh Government’s commitment to extend entitlements to free childcare will, of necessity, lead to an increase in the number of childcare providers across Wales. This creates an opportunity for us to consider the positive community impacts that could arise from the growth in employment within this sector. What consideration has the Cabinet Secretary given to embedding the principles of the foundational economy into the childcare delivery offer and raising the social ask of providers in order to further benefit communities?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

This is a great question in terms of the childcare plus agenda, making sure that this is not just about childcare and warehousing of children in some shape or form, but actually building an economy and the opportunity for the childcare sector to grow, but also the issues of procurement, food processing, retail distribution, transport—all of those things that feature around this one specific piece of work. It is something I’m working with my Cabinet colleagues on, and indeed the sector, which surprised me even more when I read the comments in the newspapers this week.

Llyr Gruffydd (Plaid Cymru, North Wales)

Of course, quality is as important as quantity, and we know that falling behind early, particularly in cognitive development, can have long-lasting effects for children, particularly in later childhood, and indeed in later life. I’ve pressed you previously about the early years childcare and play workforce plan, and you indicated it would be available in the spring. Well, here we are, and I was just wondering whether you could give us an update as to when we’re likely to see it, and whether its publication is now, in fact, imminent.

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

That work plan is being worked upon by ourselves, but also the commissioners as well. We’ve asked them to come in to talk to us about future planning. I think it’s only right that we do that.

We shouldn’t not acknowledge that this is going to be a huge challenge for the sector as a whole—to make sure we’ve got capacity within the system to deal with all these young people coming through. I agree—on the total childcare programme that we’ve been running, the two areas that have been most prominent are quality and flexibility, and it’s very wide ranging in that context, but we are working towards that. Delivery will be started in September, but I will give a more definitive answer to the Member when I’ve got some more details that I can give him.

Julie Morgan (Labour, Cardiff North)

8. What discussions has the Cabinet Secretary had with counterparts in Northern Ireland and Scotland in relation to children’s rights and entitlements? OAQ(5)0136(CC)

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I thank the Member for her question. My officials meet regularly with colleagues in Northern Ireland, Scotland and England to discuss children’s rights and the implementation of the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child. These discussions include taking forward the 2016 recommendations made by the UN Committee on the Rights of the Child in full.

Julie Morgan (Labour, Cardiff North)

I thank the Cabinet Secretary for that response. Is he aware of the survey commissioned by the Northern Ireland Commissioner for Children and Young People that showed that 63 per cent of people in Northern Ireland now support children being legally protected from hitting, smacking, and indeed any type of assault? Is he also aware that Scottish MSP John Finnie is due to lodge a Member Bill in the Scottish Parliament in the next few weeks to abolish the defence of justifiable assault in relation to the physical punishment of children in Scotland? Does the Cabinet Secretary agree that it is very useful for us in Wales, and for the Welsh Government, to look at what is happening in other countries in relation to the physical punishment of children and our own proposed plans?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

Indeed, and the Member’s right to raise this. Promoting positive parenting in Wales is critically important, and learning from other nations is part of our approach, but we must recognise that solutions introduced by other countries are based on their own specific legal jurisdictions. Any legislation we take forward will be tailored to Wales, but the Member can rest assured that we will be introducing this legislation.

David Melding (Conservative, South Wales Central)

Cabinet Secretary, I think it’s very important in this area that our expectations and ambitions are constantly increasing, and that’s a good thing. Of course, we’ve contributed a children’s commissioner and the first play strategy, and in fairness to the Government here, taken on the foundation phase. But we do need to look at other jurisdictions as well to make sure that we really are still at the cutting edge.

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I agree with the Member. Part of my team and some members of the Government support mechanisms have been on a trip to the States only last week to look at interventions that are looking at adverse childhood experiences. I know that other colleagues have been across the world as well, looking at interventions that are very positive for our young people. We shouldn’t be shy of adopting those policies. I only wish there was something closer to home, in England, that could have positive effects here in Wales.

Hefin David (Labour, Caerphilly)

9. Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on transitional arrangements for Communities First? OAQ(5)0134(CC)

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I have announced a 12-month transitional period for Communities First to mitigate some of the impacts of the decision. Transition and strategy guidance has been issued to fully support the lead delivery bodies, who are currently submitting outline transition plans.

Hefin David (Labour, Caerphilly)

The Cabinet Secretary will have received a letter from Caerphilly county borough councillor Ken James, the cabinet member for regeneration. I’d like to just draw his attention to this statement from Councillor James that says that Caerphilly council, as the lead body, are having trouble delivering their detailed plan because we’ve entered the pre-election period, which means they cannot adhere to their formal consultation and decision-making processes in order to develop and agree their proposals. Would therefore the Cabinet Secretary agree to a degree of flexibility for lead bodies when delivering their detailed plans?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

As always, as the Member raises it with me, as well as Dawn Bowden and his other colleagues, I’m very interested in your views on this and how we can have a smoother transition for the people employed in the communities on the ground. I’m very interested in making sure that my team work closely with Caerphilly and other associations, and I’ve asked them to have a conversation with them directly to make sure that we can find a way through this proposal.

Mohammad Asghar (Conservative, South Wales East)

Cabinet Secretary, in your statement on 14 February on your new approach to building resilient communities, you announced a new £12 million a year grant to support those who live away from the labour market. Could the Cabinet Secretary provide more details on this scheme, when it will be launched, who it will be targeted to or at, what objectives have been set, and how will they be achieved? Thank you.

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

Well, these aren’t new schemes. Lift and Communities for Work and the PaCE programme weren’t available in all of the clusters. We are making sure Lift and Communities for Work will be available in all the 52 former Communities First clusters, investing £12 million, as the Member said, about taking people who are very hard to reach from the market into employment. That isn’t always about an employability programme, but maybe about confidence building or otherwise giving people confidence to move into that plan. I’m also talking with Julie James in terms of her employability pathway to make sure that these very specific programmes in communities add value to the longer term intervention of lifelong learning. So, I’m more than happy to write to the Member with details of these schemes, but they aren’t new; we’re just increasing the capacity within the sector.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary.

3. 3. 90-second Statements

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The next item on our agenda is the 90-second statements. Ann Jones.

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Diolch, Llywydd. In just an hour’s time, the Wales women’s football team will walk out onto the pitch to play a friendly against Northern Ireland. As part of that squad, Jess Fishlock will become the first Welsh footballer to receive 100 caps, marking a most memorable milestone for this talented midfielder. No player, man or woman, has ever played a century of games for Wales, and I’m sure it’ll be a special occasion for her, and one, I think, we should recognise here at the Assembly.

Jess made her Wales debut against Switzerland back in 2006. Recently turning 30, Jess has no plans to bring her international career to a close, and retains a burning ambition to represent her country at the finals of a major tournament. I’m sure that the team will do Jess proud today and Jess will play her part, and I hope that Jess can realise her ambitions to lead the Wales women’s football team into a major tournament. I’m sure we wish her well on this remarkable achievement. Diolch.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Simon Thomas.

Simon Thomas (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

Thank you, Llywydd. Henry Richard was born in Tregaron on 3 April in 1812. He was an Independent minister and was a prominent figure in the Welsh Liberal movement. In 1868, he was elected Member of Parliament for the constituency of Merthyr and he served there for 20 years. The constituency, at that time, included the town of my birth, Aberdare.

Henry Richard is mainly remembered as a promoter of the cause of peace and arbitration and as secretary of the peace society for 40 years. His main success was working to ensure a declaration in the Paris treaty, which brought the Crimean war to an end, declaring for the first time internationally that arbitration was available instead of war. He was therefore called the apostle of peace.

There is now a statue in his memory on the square in Tregaron, and a new, all-age school is named after him in the area. This is his statement on the statue:

I have always been mindful of three things:—not to forget the language of my country; and the people and cause of my country; and to neglect no opportunity of defending the character and promoting the interests of my country. My hope for the abatement of the war system lies in permanent conviction of the people, rather than the policies of cabinets or the discussions of parliaments.’

We should bear this in mind in our own Senedd today.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Neil McEvoy.

Neil McEvoy (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

Diolch, Llywydd. Three and a half thousand people have now signed the petition to this Assembly calling for us to protect live music venues in Wales. That petition was started by the conductor and composer, Richard Vaughan. The problem is that there are two proposals to develop in Wales’s most famous live music street, Womanby Street, and the developments pose a threat to the music venues because of the weak planning laws we have in Wales. In England, there is the agent of change principle, which means that new developments need to accommodate existing live music venues and not the other way around. It’s time to think about what we can do, and people from all political parties need to stand up and protect the live music venues in Wales. The proposals for Womanby Street should be rejected unless there are cast-iron guarantees that the existing live music premises will not be affected. Our Senedd needs to listen to the thousands of people who have taken the time to sign the petition, because we need a change in planning law, and I call upon everybody present to ensure that we change the law here in Wales and protect our live music venues. Diolch.

4. 4. Motion to Amend Standing Order 12 in relation to Topical Questions

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The next item on our agenda is the motion to amend Standing Order 12 in relation to topical questions. I call on a member of the Business Committee to move the motion—Paul Davies.

Paul Davies (Conservative, Preseli Pembrokeshire)

Formally.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? The motion is therefore agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

5. 5. Debate on a Member's Legislative Proposal

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The next item on our agenda is the debate on a Member’s legislative proposal, and I call on Simon Thomas to move the motion.

Simon Thomas (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

Thank you, Presiding Officer. I want to propose that the Assembly notes the proposal for a waste reduction Bill in Wales, and the purpose of the proposed legislation would be to reduce waste, and in two particular ways: to address the need for a deposit-return scheme in Wales and to address the need to either ban, or at least have a levy on, polystyrene packaging in Wales.

The context for this proposal is that further waste reduction is needed if we are to reach the Welsh Government’s target to reduce waste by 70 per cent by 2025, and, to reach zero waste by 2050, a significant pace of change is needed. Plaid Cymru would also like to bring the zero-waste target forward to 2030 and, as stated already by the Welsh Government, Wales can, and should, become Europe’s best recycling nation. We are fourth, to be fair, but we can do even better.

Simon Thomas (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

Wales’s recycling rate has doubled over the last decade, from just under 30 per cent in 2006-07 to over 60 per cent in 2015-16. However, not everyone recycles, and there are also local authorities that are significantly behind the pace of change. The current 58 per cent target of Welsh Government was not met by Newport, Torfaen, and Blaenau Gwent in 2015 and 2016. I believe, therefore, that a deposit-return scheme, through which customers pay a small additional charge for cans and bottles and are paid back when they return the empties, will incentivise people who do not already recycle and, indeed, will introduce an element of resource saving into our economy. This scheme should be available for plastic cans and bottles as well as metal ones and glass ones. As well as increasing collection rates, deposit schemes provide a higher quality of material, which can then be refilled or recycled. Deposit schemes could also save local authorities money in the long-term through lowering the amount of household waste to be managed, reducing the need for sorting and disposal facilities, such as incinerators and landfill, and reducing the need for street cleaning.

It’s a particular concern that the marine environment around Wales is being very much degraded by the amount of plastics in our environment. The Marine Conservation Society has a petition before the Assembly currently and is supporting a journey by a clipper around the coast of Britain in August, which will be calling in Cardiff sometime in the month of August, called the Sea Dragon, and the purpose of the Sea Dragon is to collate data on plastic in our marine environment. This is citizen science at its very best, in co-ordination with universities. And any of us—

David Lloyd (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

Can I just—[Inaudible.]

Simon Thomas (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

Yes, indeed, I would do.

David Lloyd (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

Just as species champion for the grey seals, all 43 of my new friends now in Worm’s Head would surely back such a proposal.

Simon Thomas (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

I’m sure they would, but I would say to Dai Lloyd that they’re not necessarily his friends, because I think they travel a long distance, and they’re probably as much Irish and Breton friends as they are Welsh friends. But it just shows the marine environment is there to be protected. And I think if anyone has undertaken a beach clean—and perhaps Dai Lloyd would like to consider a beach clean—they will know how many bits of plastic and returns from bottles are picked up at that stage.

Now, Germany’s deposit-return scheme is the most successful in the world. That’s been in place since 2003. A charge of 25 euro cent is applied to all drink containers apart from milk and fruit and vegetable juices. As a result, 98.5 per cent of refillable bottles are returned by consumers, and this is the point: the quality of recovered material is good enough to guarantee that an old bottle will become a new bottle. So, though we succeed in recycling at the moment, the advantage of a deposit-return scheme is the saving of resource, as well, and less waste. This has also helped to remove 1 billion to 2 billion one-way containers from Germany’s bins and streets.

It’s also the trend that is increasingly growing. I didn’t want to bring rubbish into the Chamber, Deputy Presiding Officer, and I did have to prepare this last night—myself, personally—but, if you buy some trendy beer or hipster ale these days, you’ll find that it often has a 10 cent refund for any state or territory—this is for international sales in Australia and the United States. So, this is the trend that’s already happening—we need only to follow that trend, and, as they say, work with it.

However, not everything can be recycled, and to reach zero waste—or reuse, indeed—we will eventually need to ensure that all packaging used in Wales is recyclable. One of the main causes of litter is, in fact, polystyrene packaging, which is not recyclable and cannot be reused, as it’s often used for food packaging, of course. Whilst other more environmentally friendly materials can be used, many cafes, shops, and fast-food outlets use polystyrene packaging for drinks and takeaways because it’s cheaper. Figures from the Bevan Foundation demonstrated that an online wholesaler offered 500 large polystyrene burger boxes for £21.12, whereas the biodegradable burger boxes are sold at £44.48 for 500.

So, there’s little incentive currently for retailers to use environmentally friendly alternatives, which include biodegradable containers, refillable containers, and even edible containers, which are now possible. It may not be possible or necessary to follow many states and cities in the USA and ban polystyrene packaging in Wales, although I am personally tempted to think along those lines, but we can look closer to home at our own successful single-use carrier bag charge, introduced by the Welsh Government in October 2011. According to a review commissioned by the Welsh Government and published in March 2016, between the introduction of the 5p charge in 2011 and 2014, there was an estimated 70 per cent reduction in the use of single-use carrier bags in Wales. So, a similar charge on polystyrene food and drink containers could be paid by the retailer or passed on to the consumer and lead to a similar decline in use.

It’s very interesting that, when the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Local Government came to the Finance Committee in Newport last week—I think it was last week, or it might have been the week before; I can’t remember exactly when now—he talked about using the new powers in the Wales Act 2017 to introduce innovative taxes. And, of course, one of the proposals from the Bevan Foundation and others is a polystyrene charge in Wales, as just such an innovative tax.

So, many stakeholders, from the marine and environmental sectors to people like the Bevan Foundation, are calling for a tax on polystyrene to reduce its use, or even to drive out its use with more environmentally friendly alternatives. I think such legislation could deal with and help reduce waste enormously in Wales, but, more importantly, put us at the forefront of thinking in a European context.

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Thank you very much. Jenny Rathbone.

Jenny Rathbone (Labour, Cardiff Central)

I support this excellent proposal, and I think there are many other things we might consider doing as well. First, just to correct Simon, we are, I understand, the third best in the world for recycling, after Germany and Taiwan, so we need to celebrate that.

I was wondering whether we would have the competency, for example, to outlaw contracts that the supermarkets are making with some of their farming suppliers to force them to plough vegetables back into the land if they don’t meet the cosmetic appearances that consumers apparently demand in supermarkets, because that seems to me absolutely criminal.

I support your polystyrene tax, but I feel that there’s also more that we need to do to clarify for the citizen what plastics are recyclable and what are not, because I’ve had some debate with constituents about whether the black trays that are used invariably in processed foods—are they recyclable or not? If they’re not, let’s stop using them and use another coloured tray or one that’s made of a slightly different material, because it ought to be perfectly possible to recycle plastics if they’re not adulterated. Therefore, I think that the polystyrene tax should be extended to any plastics that are not recyclable, so that we force companies to recycle, because the cost in terms of the environment is just absolutely huge.

Most plastic packaging material is lost after one use—it’s not recycled. Once it becomes waste, it’s disposed of as municipal waste and about 30 per cent of it gets lost into the oceans, with the impact on Dai Lloyd’s friends but also on the ocean generally. We do face a situation where we could actually have more plastic in the ocean than fish, and that is a pretty scary prospect. So, I think that Europe is beginning to look at this, because, obviously, not all of Europe is doing as well as either Germany or Wales. The European Parliament has recently approved something called the Bonafè report, which is aimed at moving the EU towards a circular economy, with an 80 per cent recycling target for packaging waste. So, we want to be ahead of the curve in that respect, rather than following on.

So, I think that those are particularly good things that we could be doing, but I think it is also about changing behaviour, particularly the fact that a third of all food never actually reaches the table—that tells us that there’s something wrong about the way we respect food. But I think that we should also be thinking of following the excellent example of Germany with the closed substance cycle and waste management Act, which they passed in 1996, as you’ve already referred to, because it really does help to embed the ‘reduce, reuse, recycle’ concept, which we should all be following.

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Are you coming to a conclusion, please?

Jenny Rathbone (Labour, Cardiff Central)

So, I think if we want to be a zero-waste nation by 2050 or by 2030, then we should be really, I hope, considering this legislation.

Siân Gwenllian (Plaid Cymru, Arfon)

It’s important that the Assembly continues with the good work of tackling waste. It’s an issue that affects us all. The seas, coastlines and beaches of Wales are habitats that are seriously damaged by waste and, in supporting Simon Thomas today, I want to mention the impact of waste on marine habitats and the impact of polystyrene particularly.

Following the plastic bag tax, introduced in 2011, there was a notable reduction in the number of plastic bags found on beaches around Wales, but according to the beach survey of 2016, when 28 Welsh beaches were surveyed, there was an increase of 16 per cent since the previous year in the number of items of waste found. Plastic and polystyrene are the main items found on beaches in the UK, and as we’ve heard, polystyrene is a huge environmental problem because it isn’t a material that biodegrades over time, and we don’t know how long it takes to biodegrade. In the meantime, landfill sites, as well as our seas, are filling with polystyrene. Polystyrene is worse than plastics, because there is increasing evidence that chemicals in polystyrene can be carcinogenic as well as damaging and being harmful to our wildlife and marine life.

By way of coincidence, yesterday I received a letter from a county councillor living near a school in Arfon, and this is what she says:

In our area, we see pupils visiting food shops at lunchtime and dumping their polystyrene containers in the woods and on riverbanks, on greenfield sites, along paths and on our pavements. It’s terrible and it’s a problem that’s increasing. Certainly, there is work to be done to educate children to dispose of their litter in a responsible way. Of course, it’s an ongoing battle to ensure a sufficient number of bins and so on. Despite that, I am of the view that it would be of great assistance to reduce packaging, particularly food packaging.

She goes on, this councillor, to say:

I wonder whether the Welsh Government would consider taxing polystyrene. The tax on plastic bags has been a sweeping success. So successful, indeed, that other nations in the UK have adopted the same policy. What about Wales leading the way once again, creating a Wales which is free of polystyrene? Thank you for reading my letter. I hope you’ll have an opportunity to speak up on my behalf and ask the Government to consider my request.

Clearly, there’s more discussion to be had: a tax, a levy, a prohibition—which is the best approach of reaching our aim? But certainly, reducing the packaging waste in terms of goods would do a great deal to reduce the waste that is disposed of, with so much inevitably finishing up on our beaches and in our seas, where it can take many, many years to biodegrade. So, thank you for the opportunity to contribute to the debate. Thank you to Simon for bringing this issue forward, and on with the attempts to tackle the issue of waste.

David Melding (Conservative, South Wales Central)

Could I just say that the Welsh Conservative group has no objection in principle to what Simon is intending to do, or would do if he got the opportunity to introduce a Bill here? However, we do think the practicalities play very heavily and need to be fully considered, and, in fairness, he did refer to them in his speech.

But we do start from the concept of the circular economy. I think we’re much more aware, now, of the impact we have in terms of how we wrap our products and how we consume the goods that we rely on so much. As many people have said, you’ve only got to walk on a beach anywhere, really, in the world, now, to realise the impact. I think, in the last 20 years or so, there’s been a huge shift, also, in public support and the demand the public have for policies that effectively meet these environmental demands.

I think we should remember that Wales does have a good suite of recycling polices at the moment, and we start from a high base. Whatever we do, we obviously want to preserve those achievements. I think any deposit scheme, in particular, would have to be very carefully thought through, so that we would be convinced that it really would take us a lot further than we can get just with the existing policies.

Some of the issues that have been raised with me—I don’t think they’re insuperable, but they obviously will need to be addressed. The existing infrastructure could be affected by a poorly designed scheme. You can end up with a clumsy policy that encourages people to make extra journeys to the supermarket, or whatever, to return bottles and other items. So, I think that needs to be considered. Also, many people, especially vulnerable people, have their groceries delivered—how that is incorporated into any deposit scheme. As I said, I don’t think they are insuperable, but they are knotty problems and they need to be addressed. I also think that the implications of any radical shift from kerbside, which has been hugely successful, to bring-to-store schemes, or whatever model is suggested, needs careful thought.

On food packaging, I think Wales and the UK need to get our act together, and I think a lot of us have just been depressed, on occasion, by the sheer quantity of material wrapping essential goods. That can’t be a great model and we need to move away from it. I’ve heard stories of outraged German consumers just tearing superfluous packaging off their products before they get to the till. I’m not recommending that, but I do think it shows you that there is a public mood for going even further here. So, we wish him well and we will look at anything that eventually comes to us very seriously.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

I congratulate Simon on bringing this legislative proposal forward, aiming to reduce waste through placing additional requirements on food producers and retailers. It builds on the good work already undertaken by the Welsh Government and this Assembly to tackle an issue that affects us all, and we all do have a responsibility to tackle not least the islands of waste now growing in our oceans and choking marine life.

Wales has been at the forefront in the UK of proposing and then implementing legislation to support waste reduction, from the ‘Towards Zero Waste’ strategy, ambitiously aiming for a zero-waste nation by 2050, to the waste Measure, which introduced, as many other Members have remarked upon, the single carrier bag charge, followed, four years subsequently, by England. The carrier bag charge is an example of a great waste reduction success story for beaches here in Wales, with a significant reduction in the number of carrier bags found—lower than any other year since 2011. But even so, packaging waste is still a problem in our oceans and on our shorelines.

Like others here, I’ve joined in with people of all ages at beach clean-ups, and results from the Marine Conservation Society’s Great British Beach Clean 2016 revealed that, of the 28 Welsh beaches surveyed in September 2016, on average 607 pieces of litter were found per 100 metre stretch. That is still an increase of 16 per cent from 2015. Alongside plastic and polystyrene pieces, much of the litter on our beaches is packaging—the packaging of items such as crisps, sandwiches, sweets, lolly wrappers, and so much more. It not only causes an eyesore for residents and those tourists visiting our many fantastic beaches, but it poses a threat to our marine wildlife and to our commercial fisheries as it takes years to degrade.

Wales has made good progress on waste reduction, but should always be more ambitious in looking at how we can reduce waste. Some of Simon Thomas’s proposals, supported by the Marine Conservation Society and many others, are worthy of further consideration, and by extending producers’ responsibilities we could reduce the amount of packaging on food and other items, ensuring a significant step is made in reducing the amount of packaging that gets thrown away—waste that, one way or another, inevitably washes up on our beaches and in our seas. So, there will be many practical issues to work through in the proposal, I’ve got no doubt. David Melding has referred to a few now, and Simon Thomas himself acknowledged that there would be some difficulties to work through, but they are not unsurmountable in any way. So, I do support Simon’s legislative proposal in principle today, and in spirit, and I’m sure we can get the letter right if this were to come forward as well, and I urge other Members to consider doing so as well.

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Thank you very much. I now call on the leader of the house, Jane Hutt.

Jane Hutt (Labour, Vale of Glamorgan)

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Thank you, Simon Thomas, and everyone, for taking part in the debate today. The debate has given the Welsh Government the opportunity to update—in fact, the update has been fed back and expressed by Members today. But I think it is important to remind ourselves and put on the record that we published our waste strategy for Wales, ‘Towards Zero Waste’, back in 2010, outlining the actions we must all take if we are to reach our ambition of becoming a high-recycling nation by 2025 and a zero-waste nation by 2050. Our strategy is a pathway towards a so-called circular economy, which all Members have commented on today. That circular economy is one in which we keep resources in use for as long as possible, extract the maximum value from them whilst in use, then recover and regenerate products and materials at the end of the service life. Welsh Government published its waste prevention programme in December 2013. The waste prevention programme supports ‘Towards Zero Waste’ by describing the outcomes, policies, targets and work programme to address waste prevention in Wales.

Tackling waste is a big success story for Wales, and one that we should all be proud of. We have the highest municipal recycling rates in the UK and, according to an independent study, the second highest rates in Europe, and the third highest in the world. Now, in 2017, the Welsh Government has set its course to be the world leader in municipal recycling. The overall economic benefits to the Welsh economy of our waste strategy are enormous. For example, research carried out by the Ellen MacArthur Foundation projects benefits to Wales of achieving a circular economy of over £2 billion each year.

On food and drink packaging, it’s important to be clear that one of the primary purposes of the packaging is to protect the product from damage and wastage, including extending its shelf life. ‘Towards Zero Waste’ is currently being evaluated and will be refreshed to increase opportunities for the private and public sector to maximise financial, social and environmental benefits as a result of adopting changes in practices under the banner of a circular economy and resource efficiency. We will consult on the revisions to the waste strategy in a formal consultation in 2018. As part of the consultation process, the Welsh Government will have a comprehensive engagement with food producers, retailers and other stakeholders in respect of extended producer responsibility. This means making sure that they take a greater financial responsibility for the collection and management of waste that results from the products and packaging.

Recently there’s been significant interest following the media coverage on litter, plastic bottle recycling and recycling of coffee cups. The Welsh Government has a programme of work in place to tackle specifically these issues. For example, for many years funding has been provided by Welsh Government for the Waste and Resources Action Programme, WRAP, to work with the food industry and grocery retailers to reduce excess packaging. WRAP Cymru has also worked with the food service industry to deliver packaging waste prevention and increase recycling.

We’re about to commission a study to research options in relation to outcomes related to resource efficiency, including waste prevention, reuse and recycling, and to reduce litter under an extended producer responsibility approach. As part of this study, we will consider how a deposit-return scheme might impact on existing local authority schemes used to collect and manage the waste we produce in Wales. We must also take into account the associated environmental, financial, social, cultural and well-being impact on the people of Wales when making our decisions under the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015. We will examine this research as part of our review and update of our waste strategy, ‘Towards Zero Waste’.

Simon Thomas, in bringing this forward today for debate, and Members, have spoken powerfully about the adverse impacts of waste, particularly on the marine environment, but also about the opportunities for Wales to continue to lead the way in its waste strategy policy. In considering this legislative proposal, as I’ve already said, we have a waste strategy and waste prevention programme in place for Wales, but we’re also committed to delivering approaches to address waste packaging. Any Bill brought forward now would need to be assessed for Assembly legislative competence under the provisions of the Wales Act 2017. Legislation regarding products is a complex area, and until we know in detail what might be proposed under the proposed Bill, we can’t be sure whether it is within the legislative competence of the National Assembly or not. On this basis, the Government will be abstaining on this proposal, but we commend the intentions of the outcomes the proposal for a Bill seeks to address, in relation to waste production, as it resonates with the strides that we’ve made through our waste strategy, ‘Towards Zero Waste’, and in our pathway to achieving a more circular economy in Wales.

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Thank you. I call on Simon Thomas to reply to the debate.

Simon Thomas (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

Thank you, Presiding Officer. May I thank everyone who’s contributed to the debate and particularly thank the Minister, who’s just confirmed that the Government is still keeping in mind the need of a deposit-return scheme in Wales?

At the heart of this debate is the circular economy that David Melding and many other Members have mentioned. We must emphasise, in that context, that recycling something that can be reused is a waste of energy, a waste of resources and a waste of transportation very often. So, in moving towards a waste-free Wales, we should ensure that we reuse as much as possible, and that’s the purpose of this legislative proposal, to reduce that. We should also be collaborating towards an objective where we can’t use packaging in Wales that can’t be reused, recycled or composted. That should be the aim. And although there are some barriers, as Jane Hutt mentioned, in terms of doing that, we can overcome those problems with the right will and with some imagination.

And the final point, if I may, is this: who would have thought, five or 10 years ago, that just 5p would change the way in which people use plastic bags? If recycling were enough in and of itself, we wouldn’t see so much waste in our seas as we do at present, and on our beaches and in our environments. If 5p can do that for plastic bags, then a tax on polystyrene and a deposit-return scheme can also make a difference.

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Thank you very much. The proposal is to note the proposal. Does any Member object? [Objection.] You object. Therefore, we will defer voting under this item until voting time.

6. 6. Statement by the Chair of the Finance Committee on Ministerial Appointments: Pre-Appointment Hearings by Assembly Committees

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Item 6 on our agenda is a statement by the Chair of the Finance Committee on ministerial appointments: pre-appointment hearings by Assembly committees, and I call on the Chair of the Finance Committee, Simon Thomas, to move the statement.

Simon Thomas (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. This is the last time you’ll hear from me this afternoon—before Easter even. Despite that, I am pleased to make this statement here today on behalf of the Finance Committee, talking of our experience of holding a pre-appointment hearing on a ministerial appointment, which we undertook as part of the process for recruiting the chair of the Welsh Revenue Authority. I welcome the opportunity to inform the Assembly, which will hopefully help to improve this procedure in future, and give advice to other committees.

Many of us in the Assembly have been calling for pre-appointment hearings for some time. The suggestion to hold a hearing for this recruitment was made by the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Local Government. And, back in 2012, when he was the Chair of the Health and Social Care Committee, he wrote an article for the Institute of Welsh Affairs, from which I will quote:

un ffordd arwyddocaol y mae’r Senedd yn awr yn llusgo ar ôl datblygiadau mewn mannau eraill o ran atebolrwydd a thryloywder yw’r modd y mae’n penodi swyddogion cyhoeddus allweddol.

It’s worth noting, therefore, that the first hearing of this type, undertaken by a House of Commons committee, took place back in 2008. So, we are nearly 10 years behind Westminster, and I’m not happy about that. I’m pleased that the Cabinet Secretary has taken the first steps to bring the Assembly in line with other parliamentary bodies.

We welcome the opportunity to be involved in the process of appointing the chair of the WRA, and we hope this experience will set a precedent for future recruitment processes. The hearing was held by the committee on 16 February, and its main purpose was to reassure us as Members, and as a committee, of the suitability of the Welsh Government’s preferred candidate for the post. It also gave the candidate exposure to parliamentary scrutiny in a public setting, which is something that an appointee to a post at this level needs to be prepared for.

The committee was well placed to carry out this hearing, given our scrutiny of various pieces of tax legislation, and our interest in the establishment of the WRA. We were pleased with the opportunity to participate in this procedure, although we noted that there is currently no specific guidance in place in the Assembly for this kind of hearing. As time was limited on this occasion, we used the Westminster guidance as a basis, and worked to agree a set of overarching principles that we would adhere to for this particular hearing.

Going forward, based on our experience, I would strongly suggest that a set of formal guidelines be established for future pre-appointment hearings, to provide a more strategic approach. The guidance should set out principles that can be agreed by both the Assembly and the Welsh Government, drawing on best practice procedures in other parliaments. We can see these processes as part of the development of a protocol between the Assembly and Welsh Government. We should consider this as part of the general work being undertaken to agree protocols, as I have just said.

Based on the Finance Committee’s experience, I believe the guidance should cover a number of areas. First of all, how will the appropriate Cabinet Secretary or Minister incorporate the views of the committee? Whilst I am an advocate of holding pre-appointment hearings, we must ensure it does not become a tick-box exercise, and that the committee’s view is given due regard by the Government. This would ensure that committees understand their role in the process.

We did not see the information submitted by the candidate in making her application. And, in my opinion, the information we were given in advance was most insufficient. Committees need to understand why the Minister, or Cabinet Secretary, believes the candidate is preferred, and why they are believed to be suitable for the post. It would be helpful if a statement could be provided for the appropriate committee. With only a short period of time, and limited information available, a statement would facilitate more effective and relevant questioning.

On this occasion, we agreed to report under embargo to the Cabinet Secretary within 24 hours of the hearing, and to publish a bilingual report within 48 hours. In this case, there was time immediately after the meeting for the committee to have a brief discussion, but not necessarily enough time for Members to consider any concerns in any great detail. It was not possible for the committee to reach a unanimous opinion, and the issue of the disagreement was noted in a majority report. It is possible that, with more time and an opportunity to discuss these concerns with the Cabinet Secretary, the committee would have come to a unanimous conclusion.

I would recommend, therefore, that for future hearings, these reporting deadlines should be revised to allow time for proper consideration by the committee, while being mindful of causing delays to the recruitment process. Should pre-appointment hearings become a routine part of the recruitment process, I would suggest that additional reporting time be factored into the timescales. In saying this, I note that the Government did not confirm the appointment until last week, due to high-level security checks.

As we continue to grow as a Parliament, pre-appointment hearings of this nature will enhance our reputation as a mature legislature. At present, such hearings are held in various legislatures, including Westminster, the Scottish and European Parliaments, as well as in the US and Canada. The guidance adhered to in each Parliament varies. However, each institution does have a list of public appointments that are subject to a pre-appointment hearing. I believe that a list of this nature would be a valuable addition to the Assembly’s guidance. This approach shows a clear example of best practice. However, as with any new procedure, there are areas for improvement. If the Welsh Government and the Assembly can work together to make this process efficient and productive, there is no reason why Wales could not become a country that other Parliaments look to as an example of best practice.

By working together on guidelines and establishing effective procedures, we have an opportunity to lead the way in strengthening the transparency and accountability of ministerial appointments. We can learn from best practice in other Parliaments to form our own procedure that gives the public confidence in the decisions made by the Welsh Government and Members in this Chamber. I welcome questions and comments from other Members.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Ynys Môn)

On behalf of Steffan Lewis, who is a member of the committee, may I thank the Finance Committee Chair for his statement today and for discussing the important opportunity we have in terms of improving not only the transparency of ministerial appointments, but also the Assembly’s ability to hold the Government to account? It’s a very timely statement, if truth be told, given that the Assembly is fast maturing as a legislature. There is sufficient evidence of that—the ink is barely dry on the first piece of Welsh taxation legislation passed in this Chamber yesterday.

In my view, introducing pre-appointment hearings would support that broader development and support the maturing of the institution, and, as the Chair said, it would move the National Assembly for Wales towards the same kind of regimes as those adopted in many other legislatures across the world. So, I welcome this proposal of drawing up formal guidelines or a protocol for pre-appointment hearings. I very much hope that the Government will agree to work with the relevant committees in this undertaking, which would develop the Assembly machinery for the benefit of democracy. I look forward to hearing the Government’s views on this.

I agree with the Chair’s comments about ensuring that any arrangements for pre-appointment hearings must be far more than a box-ticking exercise. This is important because the potential of these hearings to enhance the Assembly’s ability to scrutinise Government decisions is reliant on the appropriate committee having the relevant information so that the correct decisions can be made. So, I would like to endorse the Chair’s call that committees should receive information about candidates, including an explanation from Government as to why they were chosen, in good time in order to enable more effective questioning. Of course, we must also ensure that the Government takes the committee’s view on candidates in earnest. I acknowledge that the work is yet to start properly in this area, but has the committee received any proposals on the powers that will be required for committees to ensure that their views are given due attention by Government?

To conclude, I understand that arrangements in Westminster provide a veto for certain committees on specific appointments, whilst, for other appointments, a report is prepared or a consultative vote is taken. Does the Chair believe that it’s worth considering that kind of approach in drawing up guidelines for the Assembly and that we would perhaps need to vary the powers and influence of any committee according to the appointment in question?

Simon Thomas (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

I thank Rhun ap Iorwerth for his questions and for his general welcome for this process, the development of the process and the need for more formal guidance, perhaps, so that everyone can understand how committees operate with Government.

May I just say, first of all, that I feel that the committee ultimately did have an opportunity to assess the candidate and an opportunity to hold the candidate to account in a public forum, where she was questioned in a very thorough manner? I think that’s entirely appropriate, and, therefore, that process is clearly one that committees do and one that we could do ourselves.

Rhun ap Iorwerth raised a number of points that we need to understand and which need to be included in formal guidelines. For example, what powers? We had no veto on this occasion, certainly, but if the committee had been unanimous in reporting unfavourably against a candidate, and had done that on a robust basis, explaining why, then I’m sure that the Cabinet Secretary would have had to reconsider just how he was going to proceed with that appointment. But it is a question that arises—whether the guidance should put a specific veto in the hands of some committees. That is something that would need to be negotiated between the Assembly and the Government. It is a discussion in the Assembly, because, although it’s the Finance Committee that had the opportunity to carry out this first pre-appointment hearing, this will be something that other committees will be interested in, and I would suggest that it is something that the Chairs’ forum should look at in this place as we develop that in due time.

Andrew RT Davies (Conservative, South Wales Central)

I welcome the chairman’s statement this afternoon. This is something that we had in our manifesto at the Assembly election last year—rejected by the people of Wales, hence the Government’s sitting on this bench here. But I do think there’s a wider issue here that, with the increasing number of appointments and the stature that has been highlighted previously by the Plaid Cymru speaker of the increased powers and responsibilities of this institution, a good way for people to actually understand how much of the actions are taken on their behalf—pre-legislative scrutiny and pre-appointment scrutiny are a vital part of the way that the public get informed about the roles people are undertaking on their behalf. You’re quite right, Chair, to point out that, in many legislatures around the globe, this is common practice, and surely we should embrace that and welcome that. In your statement you did touch on the tax authority’s, the revenue authority’s, appointment of a chair and how the individual came before you. Surely, that is something that is welcomed and, ultimately, should be expanded across the areas of public appointments so that Members in this institution and the public at large can really understand what these roles entail, how they’re undertaken, and, ultimately, drive another level of accountability through. That, ultimately, has to be good for public service delivery. So, from these benches, we certainly will be supporting any increase in the ability to bring appointments forward.

It was many years ago when the commissioners—the children’s commissioner and the older people’s commissioner—were appointed and we believed that those shouldn’t be a Government appointment, they should be an Assembly appointment. Surely, that is good practice and, sadly, that hasn’t come to fruition, albeit I do welcome the moves from the Government when they do include other parties in that appointment process. But, surely, we should formalise that more so that it is the institution that makes that appointment. So, I welcome your statement this afternoon, chairman of the Finance Committee, but I do hope that, through your experiences and the points that you make in your statement, they can be taken forward now to expand the opportunity for scrutiny committees in this Assembly to actually—I was going to use the word ‘interrogate’ but that sounds more frightening—scrutinise chairmen and, in my view, special advisers as well, on their appointments because, equally, in the modern Government—and this is not just in this Government here; it’s Governments across the United Kingdom—the role of special advisers is an increasingly important role and has an important bearing on the way Government works, yet how many people actually understand or know the names of those individuals and, surely, that’s an important part of Government and an important part of scrutiny that should come into the public domain as well then. So, I Invite your comments on that particular aspect as well.

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

The Chair of the Finance Committee.

Simon Thomas (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

I thank Andrew R.T. Davies and I was with him all the way until he mentioned special advisers, with my own history there. But it’s a fair point. It’s something that can be explored in that regard. I think the fundamental point that you were making, which I absolutely agree with, is that this is a good way of opening up the issue to the public and to show the public and demonstrate to the public how these appointments are made, who is responsible for what, and, indeed, to give them an opportunity and a flavour of how the scrutiny will be ongoing, because this is a pre-appointment—in this case, a pre-appointment of the chair of the Welsh Revenue Authority. I’m sure that the Finance Committee will have—now that she’s been confirmed as the chair—her back as the chair to give formal scrutiny about the work that she’s undertaken, the governance of the Welsh Revenue Authority, and their, of course, corporate plan and ongoing work on behalf of the Welsh taxpayer. So, it’s an important signal of how we intend to do that work when we do a pre-appointment appointment like this.

I don’t think—to be fair, the Member wasn’t suggesting, and I don’t think we should go to the more partisan approach to some of these appointments. If you’re looking at how Trump’s appointments are being made at the moment, it tends to be very partisan. It does engage the public, however. It’s public and it gets people engaged; there’s no doubt about that. But I hope that in this institution, at least, we can use what we have, which is one of the best things that this institution has, which is our committee work and the cross-party work we do on committees and the ways we work together, to try and explore and scrutinise Government appointments and Government actions. I think that’s the tool that we use to make these public pre-appointment hearings as successful as possible.

If anyone is interested in this, I would strongly recommend that they actually watch the video of the appointment, because I think it’s a far better reflection on the scrutiny and the questioning that was done than the oral transcript of the questions asked and the questions replied, because it is by getting somebody before a committee, by looking them in the eyes, and asking them questions, that you make a judgment—it might be wrong, it might be right, but at least you make a judgment—as to whether they have the right level of skills and have learned from previous experience that they would bring to bear in this regard.

I think Andrew R.T. Davies’s question has just given me an opportunity to say one thing, as well, for clarity for everyone: we have three different ways of making appointments by which committees can be involved at the moment. I think it’s important to say that. So, we have Assembly appointments themselves: so, the Finance Committee, for example, will be, in due time, appointing a new Auditor General for Wales. That’s not a Government appointment; that’s an Assembly appointment through the Finance Committee. The public services ombudsman is handled in a similar way.

Then, as the Member said, we have the commissioners’ appointments, which are Government appointments, but which have Assembly involvement, and representatives of different parties are involved in the appointment process. And then we have this new thing, which is the first time we’ve done this, which is a Government appointment by which the Assembly has a pre-appointment hearing and can give the public verdict on the favoured candidate of the Welsh Government.

I think we’ll need to keep all three going forward, because we need that mix of scrutiny. It’s a bit confusing, sometimes, but I think we’ll need to keep that mix of scrutiny. But what’s very important is that it’s done in public and people have that chance to see that we are exercising our democratic role as a parliament to hold Government appointees to account—and maybe, in time, that may include special advisers.

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

Thank you very much.

7. 7. Debate by Individual Members under Standing Order 11.21(iv): The Fourth Industrial Revolution

Ann Jones (Labour, Vale of Clwyd)

We now move on to item 7, which is a debate by individual Members under Standing Order 11 21, and I call on Lee Waters to move the motion. Lee.