Senedd Cymru (Welsh Parliament), 28 June 2017

306 contributions from 42 members. The official report.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

I call Members to order.

1. 1. Questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Environment and Rural Affairs

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The first item on our agenda this afternoon is questions to the Cabinet Secretary for the Environment and Rural Affairs. And the first question, Vikki Howells.

Vikki Howells (Labour, Cynon Valley)

1. What action is the Welsh Government taking to encourage the recycling of food waste in Wales? OAQ(5)0157(ERA)

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Thank you. Food waste recycling and prevention are promoted through the Recycle for Wales behaviour change campaign, run by WRAP Cymru, including the Love Food Hate Waste app. I’m discussing with local authorities the possibility of funding an enhanced behaviour change campaign, to include further reinforcing these messages.

Vikki Howells (Labour, Cynon Valley)

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. It’s certainly so important that we encourage households to maximise the recycling of food waste in Wales. I’m very proud of the fact that, last year, the anaerobic digestion facility at Bryn Pica in my constituency transformed food waste into enough electricity to power more than 2,500 homes for the calendar year. How can the Welsh Government best promote the message that, if households do create food waste—and public services and private businesses too—it is properly recycled, so that it can be harnessed to power homes and buildings?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

It is really important that householders do understand what happens, and we’ve now got 99 per cent of households able to put their food waste forward to be used in this way. WRAP Cymru work with local authorities across Wales to increase food waste contribution for the anaerobic digester hubs. And, last year, one local authority saw food waste levels double as a result of the campaign, and the overall campaign approach has supported a drop in household food waste levels in Wales, to lower levels than anywhere else in the UK. Again, we’re leading on this. That’s a decrease of 12 per cent.

Russell George (Conservative, Montgomeryshire)

Cabinet Secretary, of course, I accept it’s the job of local authorities to encourage residents to recycle their food waste. But can I ask you, Cabinet Secretary, what considerations you’ve given to a national, Wales-wide campaign, to encourage people to think about the way they shop and plan their meals in regard to reducing food waste?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Well, I mentioned, in my answer to Vikki Howells, the Love Food Hate Waste app. I don’t know whether you’ve seen it, but it’s a new app that’s just been published. I’m kind of in two minds about it. It’s based on Tinder, so it’s sort of putting the two matches together, if you like. So, if you’ve got a potato left over on this day, and an egg left over on this day, how do you match them? But it’s very early days, so we’re having a look at how that’s going. But I suppose it’s innovative ways—it might appeal to younger people, as well. So, we’re going to see how that campaign is going. But I think that might make people, kind of, think more about their shopping habits.

Gareth Bennett (UKIP, South Wales Central)

Going back to anaerobic digestion, Cardiff council and the Vale of Glamorgan Council have had a joint operation to do this. I wondered what you thought of the take-up of this kind of scheme by local councils. How has that been so far, in Wales?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Well, anaerobic digestion is getting more popular, and we are seeing more. I’ve got one in my constituency—I think it was one of the first in Wales—and we certainly are seeing a few more. Natural Resources Wales are responsible for regulating them. You will be aware of some issues. Hefin David raised some issues around this, in business statement yesterday, I think. So, we do need to see more of this, but it does need to be regulated in an appropriate way.

Bethan Sayed (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

2. Will the Cabinet Secretary provide an update on progress regarding Technical Advice Note 20? OAQ(5)0158(ERA)

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Diolch. I intend to republish a revised technical advice note 20 on planning and the Welsh language before summer recess. The revised TAN will support the aims of the Government’s new Welsh language strategy, Cymraeg 2050, and incorporate key messages from a new Welsh language risk assessment framework for major developments.

Bethan Sayed (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

Thank you for that, but the previous consultation concluded in March of last year, which is 15 months ago now, and people are concerned that there is a lack of leadership in this area. So, how do you expect councillors, and the Planning Inspectorate, to work in line with the higher status afforded to the Welsh language via the Planning (Wales) Act 2015 if there is no movement on this issue? And, isn’t it clear from the decision not to mention the Welsh language once in the letter regarding the Pen y Ffridd development in Bangor—an application rejected by the council, partly because of its language impact—that there is no priority for the Welsh language in that regard. How, then, do you, as Minister, intend the new technical advice note, when it published, to take into account these issues, and to do so in a timely manner?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Well, I am unable to comment on the Pen y Ffridd appeal. Obviously, it’s before Welsh Ministers for determination at the present time. I have to say that the revised TAN won’t include wholesale changes. I think the current version continues to provide sound advice to developers and local authorities in the meantime.

Andrew RT Davies (Conservative, South Wales Central)

Cabinet Secretary, obviously the ability to determine the TAN guidance that’s given by Welsh Government is a vitally important measure in any planning system. The role of community councils and parish councils in playing their part in determining applications is very much overlooked very often, and there is a lack of understanding of exactly how the technical advice notes can assist town and community councils in making their deliberations more fruitful for the communities they serve. What work does your department undertake to assist in developing the understanding of the technical advice notes that are put out by the planning department, so that they can filter right the way through the planning system, and communities can have confidence that their interests are being protected?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

We constantly monitor planning policy and TANs, and, obviously, update guidance to local authorities. The way it’s disseminated then to community councils and parish councils is very important, because, as you say, they do have an important role to play in planning applications. So, that’s work that officials do with local authorities, and that information is then disseminated down.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Questions now from party spokespeople. Conservative spokesperson, David Melding.

David Melding (Conservative, South Wales Central)

Diolch yn fawr, Llywydd. Cabinet Secretary, section 17 of the Planning (Wales) Act 2015 introduced a requirement for applicants to carry out pre-application consultations—I’m now going to refer to them as PACs—with the community and technical consultees. Have you made any assessment of how this is operating now that it’s been in place for 15 months?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

That work is currently being undertaken.

David Melding (Conservative, South Wales Central)

I’m relieved that it is being undertaken, because this was an important reform to make the planning process more efficient and effective. Members will know that it is a requirement on major developments, such as housing developments of 10 or more houses, or developments on a site of one hectare or more. Now, one of the prime intentions is to engage the local community and enable them to have their views heard on significant applications. I wonder if you are going to instruct your department to make a careful assessment of how these community responses are being used to improve the planning process.

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

That will be part of the assessment and the monitoring, because I think it’s very important that we do see an improvement in that area.

David Melding (Conservative, South Wales Central)

I agree with you because I think the advantage of a pre-planning process is that the very real concerns a community may have can then be addressed, and then can shape the application, but the thrust of the application can continue in a moderated, adapted form. Another thing I think you need to look at, because, in the discussions I’ve had, for instance with housing associations, architects and builders, the Act itself makes a requirement that developers should consult with specified persons or statutory consultees during the PAC stages, but, of course, there’s no requirement for these consultees to respond. But, we are finding that, sometimes, no response comes in pre-application, and, then, an infrastructure company, a utility—all statutory consultees—then raise a major objection during the formal part of the planning application process, which is obviously undermining, or would undermine if this became common practice, the whole basis of these reforms. And it’s important for the social and economic objectives we have for future generations that we improve planning and have proper, regulated, effective planning so that our communities can thrive and flourish.

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

I don’t disagree with you, and, obviously, with the implementation of the planning Act, it’s very important that we do see the improvements to which you refer.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Simon Thomas.

Simon Thomas (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

Thank you very much, Llywydd. Cabinet Secretary, the Climate Change, Environment and Rural Affairs Committee has published a report today on using snares in Wales. Many of the recommendations you will respond to in due time, of course, but I think there is one recommendation that you could respond to today. Recommendation 7 states that the use of snares that don’t comply with your own Government’s code on land owned by the Welsh Government should be prohibited. I think this is a simple and positive step that you could take now, to show leadership and to promote only the use of snares that comply with your own code for efficiency and the welfare of wild animals. Will you confirm today that you’re willing to do that?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

I’ve received the report and haven’t had the chance to read it yet. As you say, I will be responding in the usual way. Regarding that, I would certainly hope to be able to do that. I think that if we can’t comply with our own code, then it’s not worth having. So, I would confirm that.

Simon Thomas (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

Thank you for that positive response, and I look forward to reading your formal response too. But I do think that that shows the leadership that is necessary, and, as you know, we need to use the snares that comply with the code. It’s difficult to get a hold of them, but you’re giving some leadership there.

If I could turn to energy now, we are still waiting, of course, for a decision on the Swansea bay tidal lagoon. Since the election, I’ve written to Liz Truss, who now holds some of the purse strings in the Treasury, and have urged her to proceed with the financial permissions in order to lead in the area and put Wales in the vanguard of an industry that is sure to develop quickly. There’s £1 billion available for Northern Ireland, partly to clear up their own mess on the wood energy scheme, which demonstrates clearly that the Treasury can provide funding when the will is there. What have you done and what’s the Welsh Government done since the general election, therefore, to ensure that the tidal lagoon in Swansea bay does proceed?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

I think you have to accept that the UK Government have been very tardy with their response to the Hendry review and obviously their announcements around Swansea bay tidal lagoon. I wrote, a fortnight ago again, to Greg Clark, asking when the response would be forthcoming. I picked up in the media today that those questions were side-stepped yesterday in the Houses of Parliament. I think we need to know what their position is. I think my first response that I received from Greg Clark said that the UK Government would be responding in due course. Well, ‘in due course’ means nothing to me. How long’s a piece of string? So, I do think that we need to know. So, as I say, I did write to Greg Clark about two weeks ago.

Simon Thomas (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

Thank you for confirming that, Cabinet Secretary, and I’m sure, if necessary, you will remind the Westminster Government that this Assembly has voted unanimously in favour of the plan, having seen and studied the independent review by Charles Hendry, commissioned by the previous Westminster Government, which said very clearly that this should proceed as a matter for a pathfinder project and at no cost, almost, or pain, if you like, to Westminster to invest in that.

There is one aspect of energy that is completely in your hands and that is that around community schemes and hydropower. My colleague, Sian Gwenllian, raised this with the First Minister yesterday and I’ll raise it with you today. I think we’ll both be raising it until we get a satisfactory answer, to be honest, which is the effect of revaluation on hydroelectricity and hydro schemes in particular. I’ve had a letter from the British Hydropower Association, which sets out that most independent hydro schemes, which include community ones, of course, would have previous rateable values of approximately 10 per cent of their revenues, which is similar to other businesses, and they are now seeing those values as a result of the revaluation increase two, three or fourfold, and in some cases, an increase of 900 per cent. This is clearly in danger of cutting off a source of investment for an important niche, perhaps, in some parts, but an important renewable energy industry that we have here in Wales and the potential for further expansion in Wales. So, will you now discuss with the rest of the Cabinet, but particularly the Cabinet Secretary for finance, to see whether some sort of relief can be put in place for renewable energy schemes such as these, similar to what’s happened in Scotland, so that we don’t choke off this growing industry?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Yes, I’ll be very happy to have that discussion with the Cabinet Secretary for Local Government and Finance, and then I’ll update the Member.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

UKIP spokesperson, Neil Hamilton.

Neil Hamilton (UKIP, Mid and West Wales)

Thank you, Llywydd. Last time I questioned the Cabinet Secretary on agriculture a few weeks ago, we were discussing regulations applying to agriculture post Brexit. The burden of my question was that we should reassess all regulations to see if we could reduce them where there was no substantial diminution of public benefit. Part of the Cabinet Secretary’s answer seems to have caused a certain amount of consternation amongst some farmers, because she said, ‘Well, of course, this could mean an increase in regulation.’ I’m hoping that today she might be able to put that into a bit of perspective. I’ll give one illustration of how, in England at the moment, farmers are campaigning to relax hedge-cutting restrictions in August. Of course, we don’t have them in Wales. There’s a short window of opportunity between harvesting summer crops and planting winter crops, and it creates problems for farmers if they can’t do things like hedge cutting and other management issues in August. So, that’s an example of how having regulations that are more proportionate are in the interests of farmers, but don’t cause any problems for public benefit.

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Well, I think the consternation amongst farmers was increased by a bit of mischief making from the Welsh Conservatives and the press release they put out. I think what I said was that I’ve got about 7,000 pieces of legislation and regulations in my portfolio, and I think I actually said ‘a case-by-case basis’, but what I was saying was that we wouldn’t allow environmental standards, for instance, to slip, and we could strengthen some in places if they were deemed to be needed. So, you’re right. We need to look at it very pragmatically to make sure that it is proportionate.

Neil Hamilton (UKIP, Mid and West Wales)

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary, for that reply. I’m afraid my reading list is not quite as extensive as hers; it does not extend to Conservative press releases. But—[Interruption.] But can I raise a related issue? At the moment, the European Union is considering reducing permitted levels of zinc oxide, which is an important chemical in the post-weaning of pigs to reduce problems with diarrhoea. There doesn’t seem to be any problem with zinc levels in the ground in Britain or in Wales, but, if zinc oxides were to be banned, or significant restrictions were to be introduced on their use, this could mean wider use of antibiotics and that could obviously lead to microbial resistance. Calculations have been made that, if you delayed weaning of piglets from 28 to 42 days as one means of compensating for not being able to use this chemical, that would cost half a litter per year per sow, which would be £156 per sow, which would be a significant diminution in farmers’ incomes for those who specialise in pigs. So, can the Cabinet Secretary tell me whether she is making representations on behalf of Welsh farmers against the current proposal on the table in the EU?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Well, that hasn’t been raised with me, that issue, but I’d be very happy to look at it, and, again, I could write to the Member. But certainly there’s nobody in the pig industry that’s raised that directly with me.

Neil Hamilton (UKIP, Mid and West Wales)

I’ll be happy to write to the Cabinet Secretary, if she would appreciate that. At the current time, a lot of uncertainty obviously exists in rural communities about the impact of Brexit, and this uncertainty is likely to continue for some time. I think it’s very important that we keep things in perspective. We all hope, of course, there will be a deal at the end of the day that will, broadly speaking, preserve access to European markets as they exist now and vice versa. But isn’t it important for us to recognise that agriculture, although a very important section of industry and community, is very, very small in the context of national GDP? It’s only about 2 per cent in the UK, and the report that we’re going to debate later this afternoon from the climate change committee provides some useful figures on this, that GVA in Wales from agriculture is only £385 million—0.69 per cent of our Welsh national income. So, whatever problems might be thrown up by the Brexit process, it should be perfectly possible to finance them from existing budgets once the ability of the British and Welsh Governments is given to them to do so by leaving the European Union, with which, of course, we’re in a substantial deficit. So, therefore, farmers have very little to fear from Brexit, because we’ll be able to finance whatever transitional difficulties arise.

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Well, I’m afraid I don’t share your rosy view of that. The agricultural sector is so important to Wales, and farmers are very concerned. They will have heard you and they can choose to believe you or not. But we’ve only had assurance that we will have that funding for them until 2020. After that there is a black hole. Those discussions are ongoing. We’re putting an incredible amount of pressure on the UK Government, who said Wales would not lose a penny if we were to leave the EU. So, those are discussions I’ve had. I’ve already had an initial conversation with Michael Gove. I’ve made that view very clear to him also. So, you know—as I say, I don’t share your rosy view. I do hope that that funding does continue for them, and we will be fighting for them.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

3. Will the Cabinet Secretary provide an update on the assessments taken by Natural Resources Wales in relation to the proposal for the Swansea Bay tidal lagoon? OAQ(5)0161(ERA)

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Thank you. Natural Resources Wales is working closely with the developer on the proposed application and the organisation has made significant progress on the marine licensing application. I understand the principal outstanding issue is the potential impacts on migratory fish and how to model these impacts, on which I’m unable to comment further due to my potential role in the licensing process.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

I thank you for that answer, Cabinet Secretary. In your answer to Simon Thomas earlier, you highlighted the delays that the UK Government have been experiencing, but, with the general election now gone, perhaps we can see those delays and excuses for those delays disappear. But marine licensing is an important issue, because those delays could disappear and we could have a decision by the UK Government, but we still have a marine licence issue. I spoke to Natural Resources Wales last week and, as you say, the discrepancies between the two ends are narrowing, but we need a timescale, I think, for this solution. Are you prepared now to meet Natural Resources Wales and give them a timescale to work to so we can have a marine licence in place, either ‘yes’ or ‘no’, and we know a decision quickly?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

I do meet Natural Resources Wales at least once a month and have those discussions. There are no statutory deadlines set for marine licensing. I think the most important thing is that the company and NRW work very closely together, and they are doing that. I’ve been reassured on that point. But, as I say, I do have an appellant role, so it will come to me if there is an appeal.

Darren Millar (Conservative, Clwyd West)

Tidal lagoons, of course, are also an important feature that could be of benefit to the north Wales coastline, in terms of economic development and in terms of coastal protection. But one of the things that potential developers are saying to me is that they could do with some seed funding in order to fund the research that might be necessary, on an open-source basis, available for anybody to access, in order that they can take their projects forward. I wonder what discussions you have had with your colleague, the Cabinet Secretary for the economy, on the possibility of the Welsh Government investing in that research in order to make some progress on the possibility of such a development off the coast of north Wales.

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

I am aware, obviously, of the plans for a further tidal lagoon in the Colwyn bay area. I haven’t had any specific discussions with the Cabinet Secretary for Economy and Infrastructure around this. What I think we really do need is that response from the UK Government. We need it so that we—you know, we’re incredibly supportive of the principles of a tidal lagoon. I think it’s really important that the UK Government also recognise that we have a big part to play in this. So, once we’ve had the response from the UK Government, if there is then, we think, a need for that further research, we can certainly look at that.

David Lloyd (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

Following the Conservative-DUP deal this week—I don’t know if you’ve heard about that, Cabinet Secretary; and I note your earlier comments to Simon Thomas, but the tidal lagoon is vitally important to Swansea and Wales—will you be specifically making representations to the Secretary of State for Wales on this matter as well, as one of eight Welsh Conservative MPs who must now stand up for Wales? We have seen what 10 DUP MPs can do—what price Welsh Conservative MPs standing up for Wales?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Well, the Member raises a very important point, and certainly, when I next meet with Alun Cairns, I think that’s a discussion we’d have. But you will have heard the First Minister say yesterday he spoke to the Secretary of State for Wales on Monday, I think it was, when we will have raised that.

Mohammad Asghar (Conservative, South Wales East)

4. What plans does the Cabinet Secretary have to evaluate the administration of the Glastir scheme in Wales? OAQ(5)0152(ERA)

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Thank you. The administration of Glastir is reviewed annually, not least in preparation for European Commission scrutiny of the annual accounts. The effectiveness of the suite of Glastir schemes is evaluated through the Glastir monitoring and evaluation programme, which is due to publish its final report shortly.

Mohammad Asghar (Conservative, South Wales East)

Thank you for the answer, Cabinet Secretary. Delayed Glastir scheme payments can have a significant detrimental impact on farm finances. According to the Farmers’ Union of Wales, by 9 May this year, 22 per cent of claims for work done under Glastir last year still had not been paid, and the Welsh Government’s intention was to pay only 90 per cent of claims by the end of May. Does the Cabinet Secretary accept it is essential that payments to compensate farmers for the work they have undertaken and the cost incurred are made within a reasonable time period, and what action will she take to speed up the payment process, please?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

I do think farmers need that money as quickly as possible. However, you’ll be aware that, firstly, we concentrated on the basic payment scheme, and 90 per cent of people received that funding on the first day that the window opened. In relation to Glastir, we said, from the outset, that we would start paying the Glastir payments in February. We actually started in January because we’d done so well on the basic payment scheme. We actually started a month early, and my officials have been working very hard to progress all but the most complex of Glastir cases by the end of this month—so, by the end of this week. There’ll be a small number of farmers who won’t be paid this week, and they will be written to and explained why that is, but I hope very much that that will be completed by the end of July.

David Lloyd (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

5. Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on the Gower cockle industry? OAQ(5)0154(ERA)

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Diolch. The Gower cockle industry is an important fishery, which is why Welsh Government and Natural Resources Wales funded the study into the mortality issues. The recent announcement on the cockle research programme across Atlantic states will help us to understand and further develop the science and issues relating to the cockle mortality.

David Lloyd (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

Thank you for that response, but, although I welcome any efforts to try and establish the cause of cockle mortality in the area, you will be aware that the local cockle pickers and processors on Gower have declared that they have lost confidence in NRW to get to the root of the problem. The saga, as you know—certainly, we’re aware of this on the Gower peninsula—has dragged on for many years now, and we need solutions for this ancient, traditional industry. They didn’t get the necessary answers in a study conducted in 2012. Why should they have more confidence this time?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Thank you. Well, this is an issue that certainly has been on my desk over the past year. I’ve had meetings with Lee Waters and Rebecca Evans and Bethan Jenkins around this. You’re right: the report, when it was published in 2012, couldn’t identify a single, clear cause of the increased mortality, but it did identify a small number of potential factors. Those included overcrowding, parasites, and loss of condition in the cockles post spawning. I think it’s really important that we look at this new research that’s currently being undertaken, and NRW are part of that. If you have anything specific that you’d like to write to me on, I’d be very keen to see.

Suzy Davies (Conservative, South Wales West)

Good afternoon, Cabinet Secretary. Natural Resources Wales, of course, have said that this new study is to try and deal with unanswered questions from the 2012 study. When I asked the First Minister about cockle deaths back in February, he said that investigations into cockle mortality in the Burry Inlet were continuing and that a progress review of Welsh Government’s investigation would be released by Natural Resources Wales when complete. Can you explain to me where that progress review fits into what looks like a new study? How does one inform the other? It’s a question, essentially, to make sure that we’re not duplicating any expenditure here, particularly as we’re looking at unanswered questions rather than repeating studies into answered questions.

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Well, I haven’t received a recent report from NRW, but I’m certainly happy to ask them what work they’ve got and if they’ve got a report that can be shared with Members in relation to that. This new research, the Atlantic area cockles research, is a major funding programme. I think it’s €3.5 million, if I remember rightly. So, like you, I’d be very upset if there was money being spent in two ways, but I’ll certainly clarify that for Suzy Davies.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Lee Waters. Caroline Jones.

Caroline Jones (UKIP, South Wales West)

Diolch, Llywydd. Cabinet Secretary, cockles have been harvested off the Gower coast since Roman occupation. Yet, over the last decade, there’s been significant die-off of the cockle beds every year. I welcome the new study, which will, hopefully, address the shortcomings of the 2012 study. Cabinet Secretary, what more can your Government do to ensure that the Penclawdd cockle remains the best in the world and available for generations to come?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Well, the Member will have heard my answer to Dai Lloyd’s initial question. I think that’s why it’s important that we do keep taking forward research so that we get that scientific evidence. You will have heard me say that we need to look at the reasons for the increase in cockle mortality. One of the other things that I did pick up from NRW was that water quality wasn’t a factor, so we need to find out what is causing this. As I mentioned, no single clear cause was identified back in the 2012 study.

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

6. Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on basic payment scheme payments? OAQ(5)0164(ERA)

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

The Welsh Government has once again led across the UK in delivering 2016 basic payments. Nearly 90 per cent of eligible farm businesses were paid on the first day of the payment window and 15,435—that’s 99.93 per cent—farm businesses have received payments totalling £224.1 million. There are now 11 eligible farm businesses awaiting their payment. Those claims are complex, or officials are waiting for information from the farm business.

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

Cabinet Secretary, in a recent written question response, you confirmed that 56 farmers were still waiting for their basic payment scheme funding, and it’s not the first time I’ve had to raise this issue with the Welsh Government about the huge delays. The knock-on effect to our farmers and their families, who are entitled to this money, can be devastating, and it is a failure on the part of your Government as regards due process. Cabinet Secretary, what steps are you taking to release this money and ensure that this situation does not arise again next year?

Ble mae’r arian? Mae ein ffermwyr wedi aros digon hir.

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

I don’t think the Member heard me with my initial answer, because, as I said, it’s now 11—I’m not sure about the date of your previous written question, but it’s now 11. The fact is that 90 per cent—90 per cent—of farm businesses had their payment on the very first day, on 1 December 2016. For the majority of farms that didn’t receive their BPS, it was because of the boundaries between Wales and England. It was down to—. You can shake your head, but I can give you the evidence that it was down to rural payments in England, not our rural payments. I said that we’ve led the way, and we’ve now got just 11 eligible farms.

Llyr Gruffydd (Plaid Cymru, North Wales)

On Monday, of course, we got the details of this agreement between the Conservatives and the DUP. Among other things, the agreement extended assurances on the level of farm payments and funding for farm payments to farmers in Northern Ireland until 2022, beyond the assurances that Wales has been given previously. May I ask, therefore: have you now had the same assurances for Wales? If not, what are you doing to ensure that Welsh farmers are treated equally and equitably?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Sorry, in my answer to Neil Hamilton I think I did say 2020, but we have had the same assurance that it is 2022—I think that’s just within the cycle of the new Parliament.

Neil Hamilton (UKIP, Mid and West Wales)

7. Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on the security of the Welsh fishing industry post-Brexit? OAQ(5)0160(ERA)

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Exiting the EU raises many questions and uncertainties for the future of Wales’s fishing industry. Management of fisheries is devolved, and any post-exit arrangements must respect devolution. We are working closely with industry, communities and other partners across Wales to create dynamic forward-looking Welsh fisheries policies.

Neil Hamilton (UKIP, Mid and West Wales)

I thank the Cabinet Secretary for that reply. Most people, I think, believe that the common fisheries policy has been a total economic, environmental and social disaster, and has caused catastrophic damage to our marine ecology. [Interruption.] Only somebody who doesn’t have a coastline to his constituency could be as ignorant as the Member for Blaenau Gwent in this respect. We’ve also seen the plundering by industrial fleets of our UK waters and the devastation of the British fishing industry, including that of Wales. Is it not vitally important that we recover the right to control fishing within the 6 to 12-mile limit, which is subject to the 1964 London convention on fishing? It will be necessary to leave that convention in order to do so. Will the Cabinet Secretary assure Welsh fishermen that the Welsh Government will support that measure?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

You’ll be aware of our recently published White Paper, ‘Securing Wales’ Future’, I’m sure. That makes very clear that we need a fairer rebalancing of UK fishing quotas. Welsh vessels only hold about 1 per cent of the quotas in the Welsh areas of interest, and that simply is not good enough. We do expect the amount of fish available to Welsh vessels to increase.

The Secretary of State was very clear that he expected UK fishermen to have an increased share of the fishing opportunities in UK waters and I will ensure that Welsh fishermen receive their fair share. I work very closely with the fishing industry and we have made it very clear that we will continue to support them, because I think there are going to be many challenges ahead over the next couple of years, and there’s going to be some significant change. You’ll also be aware that, in the Queen’s Speech, it was suddenly announced there was going to be an agricultural Bill and a fisheries Bill. We had no knowledge of that. But, again, when I spoke to Michael Gove following the Queen’s Speech last Wednesday, I made it very clear that devolution must be respected and that joint decision making on UK-level issues is absolutely essential.

Paul Davies (Conservative, Preseli Pembrokeshire)

Cabinet Secretary, in your written statement regarding your meeting at the recent EU fisheries council to discuss European fishing opportunities for 2017, you referred to securing a modest increase to allow catches of 250 kg per month for netters in relation to commercial sea bass fishing. Can you provide an assessment of the impact this action has had in the first part of this year, and can you tell us what your intention is on this matter moving forward, given that stock remains in a recovering state?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

I was going to say I don’t think it was that recent, it was probably about December. I will have to write to the Member regarding the progress that we’ve made over the first part of this year.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

I’ve seen the worst of European fisheries negotiations, as the Cabinet Secretary has, but I have to say it’s complete codswallop—if that’s not the worst pun in the world—to say that it has not been a success. Because back in the mid 1970s the peak of cod in the North sea was landed at 270,000 tonnes. By 2006, it was 44,000 tonnes due to overcapacity and overfishing for a diminishing stock. It is now, by the way, back to 165,000 tonnes and the Marine Conservation Society is now looking to actually brand it as fit for sale on UK shelves. So, when they get it right, they get it right.

But could I ask the Cabinet Secretary, first, that there will be no withdrawal from actually sustainable fisheries, whether it’s in Welsh waters or in partnership with the UK, but secondly, how feasible is it, in the discussions with the DEFRA Secretary of State, that repatriation of quota to UK fishermen and skippers will happen? Because there are certainly UK fishermen who fish in other EU waters—roughly a proportion of one in four. Are we going to say that we’re taking their quotas away in order to get rid of people out of our waters? What happens to Scottish fishermen who have quotas and licensing in England’s waters? Are we going to push the south-west’s fishermen out of Welsh waters? These are difficult questions, and for anybody to pretend that this is as simple as ‘Give us our fish back’ is a joke.

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

I can absolutely assure the Member, regarding sustainable fishing, that that is absolutely at the top of the agenda. I haven’t had those discussions yet with the Secretary of State. You’ll be aware he’s only been in post a couple of weeks and I just had a very brief conversation. He did make it clear that he’s coming to the Royal Welsh Show. So, those are discussions that I’m sure can take place that day also. I have to say that fisheries is one of the most complex areas—the Member will know—within my portfolio. But I have to say, on the negotiations that we have, as the UK Government and the three devolved administrations, it was very good to see the work and it’s led me to believe that those UK frameworks that we are perhaps seeking to have, as we negotiate coming out of the EU—that those negotiations can work. I think we do have a framework that works very successfully and that we can follow.

Mark Reckless (Conservative, South Wales East)

8. Will the Cabinet Secretary provide an estimate of the number of farms suffering from bovine TB that are able to remove and humanely kill infected badgers? OAQ(5)0159(ERA)

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

We will consider a test to remove intervention on the 50 to 60 farms that have a persistent TB breakdown after a full veterinary epidemiological investigation has shown that cattle measures have been fully applied, and that badgers are the probable source of infection.

Mark Reckless (Conservative, South Wales East)

I know those 50 to 60 farmers will appreciate that opportunity. Could the Cabinet Secretary say perhaps on what timescale they might be able to do that and whether she then expects there to be expansion of those numbers? And can she also confirm that it’s only infected badgers that will be humanely killed? Does she agree with me that that actually could be the humane thing to do for the badger, rather than letting it loose to die and suffer from TB?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

On your latter point, yes, it will be only the infected badgers and I do think it will be good for the badger population. I think I made that very clear in my statement on bovine TB last week. In relation to the 50 to 60 farms, those are the farms that are in that chronic TB breakdown—some of them for 16 or 17 years—that will have these bespoke plans. So, at the current time, we have about 10 of those bespoke plans that are more or less completed, so they will then be able to start that process and have that veterinary assessment that I referred to in my initial answer. So, this is now ongoing; we are now rolling that out. From 1 October, we’ll be rolling out most of the refreshed eradication programme that we discussed in the Chamber last week.

Suzy Davies (Conservative, South Wales West)

9. Will the Cabinet Secretary outline the expectations placed on local authorities as a result of the local air quality management in Wales guidance? OAQ(5)0155(ERA)

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

I issued new guidance this month and will follow it up with a letter to all incoming local authority administrations next week, highlighting their air quality management duties and the importance of following the principles of our future generations legislation, and of meeting deadlines setting guidance for reporting and action planning.

Suzy Davies (Conservative, South Wales West)

Thank you for that very helpful answer, actually. It was 15 June, I think, actually, that you issued the guidance, and in that guidance there’s an obligation on local authorities to plan for the long term and prevent problems from getting worse or arising in the first place. This is before your letter, but just four days later on 19 June, Swansea council’s cabinet member for the environment said that the local authority is fully compliant with all air quality legislation. Now, obviously, following guidance helps people comply with legislation, so considering that Swansea’s monitoring system, which is meant to reduce localised air pollution, is still not up and running despite being installed in 2012, can you say that Swansea council is complying with legislation? Perhaps, does your guidance need to go a little further in its explicitness, if that’s a word? Thank you.

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

You’re right; I did issue policy guidance on 15 June because that coincided with Clean Air Day. So, that was the reason for doing that, and I wanted, as I say, to bring their management regimes into line. I will be writing to them again next week, so specifically in Swansea’s case, I can ask those specific points.

Jenny Rathbone (Labour, Cardiff Central)

Sadly, I’m afraid that Cardiff is not compliant with air quality legislation, and the spotlight was on Cardiff in a television programme yesterday about the amount of housing that’s being developed around Cardiff without the transport links to go with it. Is it your view that local authorities, in carrying out their planning duties, need to bear in mind the need for connectivity when they’re developing new communities, so that they’re not actually massively increasing their pollution problem? And, obviously, the metro plays a huge part in ensuring that we aren’t all drowning in poisonous air.

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Thank you. I picked up today in the media that the leader of Cardiff city council was talking about the need for more public transport use and cycling in relation to the issue you raise. We know transport, really, does not help with air quality, particularly in urban areas. We had a debate yesterday on decarbonisation of the public sector. Well, this is so much a part of the decarbonisation agenda. I mentioned that we’ve set up a ministerial task and finish group, which the Cabinet Secretary for Economy and Infrastructure sits on, and one of the things we’re going to discuss at our next meeting is low-carbon vehicles, for instance, because it’s so important that as we make that transition into a low-carbon economy and in relation to transport, these are taken into account in relation to our air quality.

Mike Hedges (Labour, Swansea East)

Air quality on Neath Road in Hafod in Swansea is amongst the worst in Wales, due to both its importance as the main road from the north-east into Swansea city centre, and its topography. I welcome the Morfa distributor road, which will reduce air pollution on Neath Road. Does the Cabinet Secretary agree that a bypass is not the solution to all problems of poor air quality, but, in some cases and certain circumstances where the road is a major road and the topography is such that nothing else can be done, that it can be?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

I agree with you, but I have to say we do need to do more to tackle emissions from vehicles in urban areas, so I very much welcome measures that do help reduce public exposure to air pollution, and that includes infrastructure projects such as you refer to. I know the Morfa distributor road in Swansea is due to be completed in the very near future. That’s been supported by Welsh Government via our local transport fund in recent years.

Mohammad Asghar (Conservative, South Wales East)

10. Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on measures to tackle river pollution in Wales? OAQ(5)0153(ERA)

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Thank you. The river basin management plans, published in 2015, include detailed assessments of all Welsh rivers and measures that we are taking to improve their quality. Currently 37 per cent of our rivers achieve good status under the water framework directive and we aim to increase this to 42 per cent by 2021.

Mohammad Asghar (Conservative, South Wales East)

Thank you for the reply, Cabinet Secretary. One of the duties of Natural Resources Wales is to monitor the health of Welsh rivers and take action against those who pollute them. Figures show that Natural Resources Wales received nearly 6,900 reports of river pollution between 2013 and 2016. About 60 per cent of these reports were investigated but resulted in only 41 prosecutions and 10 civil sanctions. Does the Cabinet Secretary believe that Natural Resources Wales is fit for purpose and what action will she take to improve protection of Welsh waters and Welsh rivers from pollution? Thank you.

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Certainly, in the year I’ve been in this portfolio, we’ve seen an increase in the number, particularly, of significant pollution incidents in our watercourses, most notably in the Teifi in west Wales and also the Honddu in Monmouthshire. I do think NRW are fit for purpose. I expect them to fully use their legal powers in dealing with these cases. I know they are sometimes frustrated that so few come to prosecution. I think there’s a really big piece of work to be done around pollution of farms. You’ll be aware agricultural pollution is often a cause and that’s the discussion that I have with farmers. I’ve just gone out to consultation in relation nitrate vulnerable zones and will be coming forward with a statement in the autumn. I think, as I say, there is a big piece of work to be done and it’s a piece of work that we are undertaking.

Adam Price (Plaid Cymru, Carmarthen East and Dinefwr)

The Cabinet Secretary will recall the incident in my constituency with Valero and the leak of oil into Nant Pibwr. At the time, NRW had carried out a number of tests in terms of the soil and the water, and they said that they weren’t able to publish the results in case they needed to use those in any legal proceedings. Can the Cabinet Secretary give us an update as to whether those data are now available for publication, and has NRW decided what legal steps they are to take in this case?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

The last time I discussed this with NRW—which is probably about five weeks ago, I would say—certainly, they weren’t, still, in a position to publish it. I’d be very happy to put it on the agenda for my next meeting with NRW and update Adam Price via a letter.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary.

2. 2. Questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Communities and Children

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The next item is questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Communities and Children, and the first question—Hefin David.

Hefin David (Labour, Caerphilly)

1. Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on the support available for veterans in Caerphilly? OAQ(5)0164(CC)

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

Our programme for government, ‘Taking Wales Forward’, makes clear our commitment to supporting armed forces veterans in Wales, which includes those living in Caerphilly.

Hefin David (Labour, Caerphilly)

I know, Cabinet Secretary, first-hand, from my constituency casework, that the issues faced by veterans range from housing, homelessness to healthcare. Research carried out by Swansea University and the Forces in Mind Trust has suggested that veterans may be more at risk than non-veterans of developing gambling problems and this vulnerability may be related to experience of prior traumatic events. Gambling is a complex addiction and has many contributing factors and perhaps it should be treated in the same way as alcohol and drug addiction. As the Cabinet Secretary with responsibility for policy in relation to the armed forces and veterans in Wales, will you work with your colleague the Minister for Social Services and Public Health to look at the health and wider impact of problem gambling among veterans, so that their particular needs can be addressed and they’re able to access any appropriate help that may be available?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I think the Member raises a very important point there. I was pleased last week to be at the launch of the Veterans’ Gateway service, a one-stop shop for veterans and family members to access services and support in place. Of course, there are lots of agencies that veterans can be signposted to. We have a cross-cutting theme across Government in terms of supporting veterans, and I’m pleased that I also chair an advisory group that veterans sit on, in terms of making sure that they give me proper advice, proper quality advice, in terms of their needs, and I will ask them to consider that in the near future.

Mohammad Asghar (Conservative, South Wales East)

Cabinet Secretary, last week the Conservative Government in Westminster announced that a new 24-hour helpline for armed forces services veterans from across the United Kingdom returning to civil life would be based in Nantgarw. This helpline will provide a one-stop shop offering guidance on housing, employment, finance and mental and physical health, 24 hours a day, seven days a week. Will the Cabinet Secretary join me in welcoming this announcement, which will greatly improve the support available for veterans in Caerphilly, Wales, and the United Kingdom as a whole? Thank you.

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I’m glad the Member raised that very issue today. I was at the launch of the Nantgarw event only last week, and it was well attended, and, of course, I know your colleague Darren Millar does an awful lot with the armed forces, too, in the cross-party group. I would say this very important 24-hour helpline is an important one, and I was very pleased to show my support when the launch was taken forward last week.

Hefin David (Labour, Caerphilly)

2. Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on Welsh Government support for Armed Forces Day? OAQ(5)0161(CC)

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I thank the Member for his question. We are proud to contribute annual funding support to deliver Armed Forces Days in both north and south Wales.

Hefin David (Labour, Caerphilly)

Huw Irranca-Davies says there’s a theme emerging, but it’s a slightly different focus. I was delighted to attend the Armed Forces Day celebrations in the Owain Glyndŵr fields in Caerphilly on Saturday, and the First Minister attended, together with the Secretary of State for Wales. It was a great pleasure to see many festivities, such as a Spitfire flying past and march of the regimental band of the Royal Welsh, and members of the Women’s Royal Army Corps were present in celebrating their centenary this year.

Will the Cabinet Secretary join me in welcoming the support given to Armed Forces Day in 2017 by the Welsh Government, by the UK Government, by local authorities and numerous community and voluntary groups, and indeed by many members of the public? Will he also agree that we must continue not only to support Armed Forces Day but also the services on which veterans in our communities depend after leaving the forces so that they can access the best services that they deserve?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

Of course, and I pay tribute to the many reservists and armed forces families and serving personnel, right the way across the UK and the world. We should be very proud of our history and support for them. I know the First Minister attended the Caerphilly event also with the Member, and we’re very pleased again to make support for that. I’ve recently been informed that next year, Conwy County Borough Council have been successful in their application to host the national UK Armed Forces Day, to which the Welsh Government will be providing £135,000 of contribution for them to deliver this prestigious event.

Nick Ramsay (Conservative, Monmouth)

I’m grateful to Hefin David for keeping the focus on this issue this afternoon. Cabinet Secretary, last week I attended a ‘fly the flag for our armed forces’ event at Monmouthshire County Council’s headquarters just outside Usk, and it was a very well-attended event. It goes to show how many not just Assembly Members but people across Wales want to honour our armed forces and recognise the very difficult job that they do. I understand that on Armed Forces Day, Stagecoach offered free travel to armed forces personnel carrying an ID card and to veterans carrying a veterans badge. I think that Stagecoach have signed a covenant to support the armed forces community. I think that’s a really worthwhile type of programme. Is that something that Welsh Government have been supporting and would look to support more in the future?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

Of course, and we have the armed forces covenant in place right across Wales, and the UK, actually, and all local authorities are taking part in that. It is based locally. We have free swimming for some veterans in areas that the Welsh Government support. I take advice from the ministerial advisory group for the armed forces, and they certainly tell me about how welcome they feel in Wales and what more we can do to contribute and recognise the service that they’ve been engaged in across the world.

Caroline Jones (UKIP, South Wales West)

Cabinet Secretary, we celebrate Armed Forces Day each year in order to reaffirm our sincere appreciation for those who serve in the armed forces and to show our support for the men and women who put their lives on the line to protect our country and our way of life. I was delighted when the UK Government and the DUP reaffirmed the Government’s commitment to the armed forces covenant. In this spirit, Cabinet Secretary, will you reaffirm your Government’s commitment to the covenant and ensure that service families and veterans are given whatever support they need, which is, after all, a small price to pay for their sacrifice?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

Of course, and what I can say is that, in Wales, we are very much at the forefront of delivery for our veterans and armed forces families, and we have many schemes in place. We invest £585,000 per annum into the veterans’ NHS scheme, working purely with veterans to access services—2,900 referrals through the scheme received. Also, I would ask the Member to perhaps put her influence into the UK Government, for we have in Wales, since April 2016, a higher disregard of £25 per week for veterans receiving war disablement pensions when accessing all forms of social care, and from April 2017, a full disregard will apply to this. That happens in Wales, but not in England yet.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Questions now from the party spokespeople. UKIP spokesperson, Gareth Bennett.

Gareth Bennett (UKIP, South Wales Central)

Diolch, Llywydd. I note that in the Welsh Government’s legislative programme, you’re now proposing to legislate in the area of letting agency fees, which I think is a welcome development. There was support from various opposition parties and some Members of your own party for this, so I’m glad that you are now moving towards legislating in this area. Now, I know you needed to consider evidence from elsewhere before you took any action. I wondered where your considerations had led you to. I know there were possible issues over whether, if letting agency fees were banned, it would lead to rent being pushed up instead. I know that research was undertaken about the effects of doing this in Scotland, so I wondered what your thoughts were on this or any other related issue.

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I’m very pleased I can count on the support of the UKIP Members in taking forward our legislation on letting agency fees, which it is our intention to introduce, as the First Minister make clear yesterday. The sticking point was purely that of displacement of cost, and we would have to be convinced that the displacement of cost wasn’t attributed to the rents by letting agents. I know many Members, including Jenny Rathbone on our benches, have been keen to pursue this very issue.

Gareth Bennett (UKIP, South Wales Central)

Thanks for that, and I hope that the legislation is taken forward and is, ultimately, effective. But going on to another issue that was covered in ‘Taking Wales Forward’: nursery places. There was a Welsh Government commitment to providing 30 hours a week of free childcare for working parents of three and four-year-olds. The intention was to pilot new schemes starting this coming September to cover approximately 10 per cent of eligible families. So, I wondered what information there was about where the pilots will take place and on what basis your decision was taken as to why to initiate in those particular areas.

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I’ve issued several statements on the childcare pledge, and I’m really looking forward to the start of that programme developing from September of this year. Indeed, in Blaenau Gwent, in my colleague Alun Davies’s constituency, the whole of Blaenau Gwent will be considered as a pilot scheme, and, therefore, our young children having free childcare places for working parents. This is the most dynamic childcare pledge in the whole of the UK, which we’re starting to pilot here in Wales. I would refer the Member to my statement in terms of the areas that this will be conducted in. They were chosen from offers made by local authorities in terms of which could come forward with the scheme at this point in time. But let me give reassurance to the Member, all authorities across Wales, by the end of this term of Government, will have full coverage of our childcare pledge in Wales.

Gareth Bennett (UKIP, South Wales Central)

Thanks for that, and I look forward to that happening. Just moving on to an issue that we talked about last week, in the aftermath of the Grenfell Tower disaster, now I know you made a statement on this to the Chamber, so we have discussed these issues—. One thing that has arisen as a possible problem in tackling regulation in Wales is the split of responsibilities between yourself and your colleague Lesley Griffiths, in that Lesley Griffiths’s responsibilities, I believe, cover the building regulations side, whereas you’re in charge of fire and rescue services and community fire safety. So, I just wondered what your thoughts were on that and how you would tackle the difficulty of that split.

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

Let me give reassurance to the Member again: there is no difficulty in terms of responsibility within the Welsh Government on this. I am the lead Minister on this, including the building regulations side, and the fire risk to any properties in Wales. I have had several meetings with the UK Government, and my Scottish and English counterparts, on this. This is a very live issue, which we are taking very seriously. I work very closely with Lesley Griffiths’s department, but I am the lead Minister.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Bethan Jenkins.

Bethan Sayed (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

Diolch. It’s been three months since the announcement of the 1,600-capacity men’s prison in Port Talbot. And I just wanted to probe further on your response from last time I raised this. I didn’t believe that you were clear and forthright enough when you made a statement to the Assembly on 22 March regarding the level of engagement that you had had with the Ministry of Justice. The prisons Minister has confirmed, in a letter dated 31 May to me, that your department proactively helped the MOJ to identify sites, and that’s a little bit more than ‘had discussions’, which was all that you said at the time. On 22 March, you also said, and I quote,

‘there are many questions that remain unanswered by the MOJ.’

Since it has been confirmed by the prisons Minister that you were engaged in the process before the news became public, why don’t you have more answers regarding the MOJ’s intentions?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I think the Member’s being rather overzealous in her questioning to me. I was very clear to her: I had one discussion with the prisons Minister prior to his announcement, which was on the day. Indeed, my team, and a team of other officials from another department, were engaged with the prisons Minister’s department in terms of deciding and offering sites that were available right across the south Wales region, which I know the Member is clear on also.

Bethan Sayed (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

Can I just ask then, why did you just have one conversation? If you had offered those sites, surely it would have been good for you, as a Cabinet Secretary, to be proactive in actually taking on some of the concerns that you would have prior to that public announcement. I’ve seen a list of quite a number of sites, which has clearly been given by your department. Were questions raised, such as, was this category C prison needed? The Wales Governance Centre has proven in research that such a size of a prison is not necessary for Wales. There’s no women’s prison, so why not have conversations with the MOJ with regard to expansion in that regard?

Can I just get an idea as to what ongoing conversations you’re having, to satisfy the people of Port Talbot that you are making every effort to make them aware of releasing the land, where that location will be—hopefully, it won’t be happening, but where the location you have identified would be—and how they will be kept informed of the process ongoing, via yourself, not just the UK Government?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I think what the Member is trying to relate to is the fact that, trying to develop an argument that this is our project. It isn’t our project. And it’s the same exactly with any other business investment that comes to Wales, whether that’s private or public sector. An engagement process takes place on land availability, and that is an action that takes place on a daily, weekly basis here.

I recognise the point the Member makes, in terms of, once the decision has been made by the UK Government, our engagement process has to start there, about the ability for what we think is appropriate for Wales. I have started that discussion currently, but it wouldn’t be fair to say that the decision of making a prison site here in Wales was a Welsh Government one. This is an application coming from the UK Government.

Bethan Sayed (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

But it would have been within your gift to have allocated that land for something else, prior to now having a prison. So, that’s something that we’ll argue about again, in the future.

I want to have one question about fire safety. Although you said last week that there were no buildings with the particular type of cladding used in Grenfell Tower, the BBC reported yesterday that tower blocks were being tested for similar aluminium composite material, ACM, cladding, such as in Abertawe Bro Morgannwg University Local Health Board. I’d like you to clarify a number of things, if you could, because statements from the Welsh Government have been less clear than they should have been in recent days.

For example, you’ve initially suggested the testing was voluntary. You said last week that you would urge local authorities who want to test cladding to do so. Do you think a stronger statement from the get-go would have been better? There hasn’t been much clarification since. The Welsh Government has said that it is telling local authorities who suspect use of ACM in tower blocks that they need to test their buildings. But a Welsh Government spokesperson also added that the Welsh Government does not have the powers to compel any local authority to test their buildings, but added that it was encouraging them to do so. I’m seeing a variety of words—‘need’, ‘encourage’, ‘compel’. Can I get some clarity on what is actually being done, and what you have the power to actually do, so that we can satisfy our minds that, with regard to Welsh buildings, we’re doing all we can?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

Okay. Let’s take the two points that the Member raises. First of all, the Member’s incorrect in her assertion that I had an option in terms of the land issue regarding the prison. The Member said that we would discuss this at a further date, and I am more than happy to do that.

The second point, and a very important one with regard to fire safety, is that my understanding, through advice, is that I don’t have the powers to compel authorities or RSLs to conduct tests, because they are an entity in and of themselves. But what I have done is had contact with all of these. I don’t believe it is in any of the interests of the RSLs or local authorities not to test where they see or perceive risk. And that hasn’t come back to me in terms of where they wouldn’t do that. And that discussion continues.

The advice I received last week—and it stands today—is that the ACM product that was used in the Grenfell fire disaster is not in place in any of our buildings here in Wales, but there are ACM panels, which I have also instructed authorities to have tested on the basis of fire integrity. I’m seeking advice from my senior fire adviser and a panel of individuals who can give us professional advice on the integrity of buildings. But I think we are learning more each day, and I had a long conversation with the UK administration yesterday about ACM products, about insulation, and about the integrity of whole units. And that’s what we’ve got to consider here: making sure that the first and foremost position for myself, as Minister with responsibility, is the safety of residents in these premises.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Conservative spokesperson, Mark Isherwood.

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

Diolch, Llywydd. In the summer edition of the Bevan Foundation’s ‘Exchange’ newsletter, the director of the Bevan Foundation, in an article entitled, ‘Learning to Love Local’ says that the January 2017 White Paper, ‘Reforming Local Government: Resilient and Renewed’, once again focuses on collaboration, and she then says that, essentially, the public is being asked to agree to major changes in how local services are delivered without knowing how they can make their views heard, which clearly falls more into your portfolio.

The Building Communities Trust is working with the Talwrn network of Welsh third sector organisations and the community branch of the union Unite, identifying the key factors in developing the community resilience at local level that would deal with the issue raised by the Bevan Foundation, and state that they’ve already engaged with Ministers and civil servants in the Welsh Government on these issues, which include looking at the Rhondda Cynon Taf public services model, working with the third sector to develop a local community well-being approach, using asset-based community development—that’s people’s strengths. And they go on to say that independent community organisations are well-placed to effectively deliver local services, from social care to family support and employability, and hosting these provisions by others. I wonder if you could tell us what discussions you’ve therefore had with this organisation and their partners, and what actions, if any, might result from that.

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I haven’t had a conversation with those particular organisations, but I will check to see whether my team have. In terms of the first point on local government reorganisation, I think what’s important is that there will be a consultation process, which Mark Drakeford will lead on, not myself, but I do have conversations with Mark about community resilience and what that looks like. I think the Member is right in terms of the fact that local need and local influence have to have a purpose in developing policy and the delivery of services. We are working in a very different financial environment as we stand, and therefore, I would encourage third sector organisations, or local organisations, to get engaged with the PSBs, and a good example the Member raised was the RCT one, the Rhondda Cynon Taf PSB. It’s something that I’m engaged with very closely, in terms of delivering a children’s zone within that particular area. And they’re taking that as part of their well-being assessment.

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

Thank you. I think the key message from that project was the need for independent third sector organisations to be involved in design and delivery with the statutory sector— adopting models that weren’t introduced originally in the situation of budget constraint or austerity or whatever you want to call it; they were introduced because they made life better.

One of the organisations, as an example, that’s working in communities with young people to unlock those assets, those strengths, is ScoutsCymru. They carried out a number of independent evaluations and independent assessments in 2011, and found that 89 per cent identified that Scouting had helped them build key skills, including social, team working and leadership. A more recent report on the employability of young people in Scouting has found that this had helped them develop the skills that they need in work and helped their future employability. This year, Edinburgh University released the results of a study into mental well-being, finding a positive impact on those who participated in Scouting or Guiding throughout their lives.

Concerns have been raised by ScoutsCymru regarding Flintshire—and I’m not picking on Flintshire, but it’s just that they tell me that it’s thus far the only county that’s done this—regarding the removal of discretionary rate relief from Scout groups and the impact that that’s going to have, particularly on young people from poorer backgrounds. They’ve also been refused access to the hardship fund, where they say that the work that they’re doing is actually providing assets to the community and helping the local authority do more with the resource available. While you may not want to be specific about Flintshire, what actions can you take to engage with local authorities to recognise that projects such as this are actually part of doing things better and not an easily disposable cost?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

Of course, and I think there are a couple of points there with regard to the independence of organisations. I and the Member meet many independent organisations that do a great job on a day-to-day basis in all of our communities, but we just can’t fund them all. But access to projects and access to influence is something that I would share with the Member in terms of developing well-being strategies for local authorities. It’s a good idea and the Member alludes to ScoutsCymru and the Girl Guides, which all have a positive effect in general on the mental well-being of young people and their health. I support that.

With regard to the very specific question, Flintshire aside, I am familiar with the issue that the Member raises and I think that for one of the Scout groups involved in that, the actual cost—and while I recognise that the Member is raising a general principle of investment—the actual cost to the Scout group is £1 per week in terms of the increase in their rateable value or the rate cost. I think it’s around that number. Notwithstanding that, I do recognise that the value of Scouts and other organisations have to be considered in terms of a very challenged financial settlement for local authorities. But I do, and I think they do also, value the contribution that they make to our communities.

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

Finally then, in the context of helping local authorities and other public sector bodies understand how this can improve lives, it’s about early intervention and prevention and saving money for the statutory services that they provide, so it’s actually a part of that agenda. You might be aware, and if not, hopefully you will be now, that in Flintshire, as has happened elsewhere in Wales, there’s going to be a third sector conference on 7 September, ‘Co-production in Practice’, looking at the principles of co-production, early intervention, adverse childhood experiences, strengthening the power of the third sector and building resilient communities. You may be already aware of it—I asked that you be invited—but, if not, and your diary is free, will you consider attending?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

Of course, I am aware of that event and I will give that some further consideration. As the Member will appreciate, my diary does get rather busy at times, but if I can come along, I will do so.

I’m absolutely in the same space as the Member in terms of early intervention and prevention, but we’ve got to work on this together because if you come to us, saying, ‘Look, the waiting times in some of our hospitals are increasing and there is pressure there’, then my colleagues will have to react to that because of the political will around that. But, actually, if we have a clever investment upfront in our young people, and that’s what, as a children’s Minister, I’m trying to do on a daily basis, we can actually prevent some of the A&E pressure and the longer term illnesses, but we’ve got to work together; we can’t be critical at both ends. This is a transition of support for families and individuals, and I hope that the Member can get on board and support us with that.

Bethan Sayed (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

3. Will the Cabinet Secretary outline what the Welsh Government is doing to improve community cohesion in Wales in light of recent terror related incidents? OAQ(5)0162(CC)

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I thank the Member for her question. Our regional community cohesion co-ordinators and my community safety officials are working hard with our partners to provide reassurance. This includes monitoring and responding quickly to community tensions. In the longer term, we are working to foster cohesion, tolerance and respect, and to support communities to prevent hostility and extremism.

Bethan Sayed (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

Thank you. I asked you questions on this a few weeks ago and that was before the terror attack on Muslims at Finsbury Park mosque by a British man living in Cardiff. It shows that we need to take a different approach to looking at addressing these issues. It’s not just about expecting ethnic-minority communities to look inside their own practices and how they operate; it’s about how we can all play a part in activating community cohesion. So, I’m trying to understand, since that attack, what have you been doing to try and make sure that we work progressively together here in Wales, that we don’t have people from Wales carrying out these attacks, and identifying, where they are taking part in online discussions of this nature, that we can get to grips with this particular issue?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

Of course, and I regret heavily the fact that this person came from Cardiff and committed this tragic attack. Can I say that this isn’t a switch-on moment for us in Wales? We’ve been doing lots of work with our communities, and that one person was one of 3 million people that live in Wales. I’ve met with the senior police team, and I met with the faith forum this week as well, trying to understand how we need to shift resources in terms of making a more tolerant, cohesive society. We perhaps have concentrated very much on very specific groups of people when, actually, we perhaps need to broaden that out, about acceptability, and that’s something I’m looking for further advice on from that team of people.

Darren Millar (Conservative, Clwyd West)

Cabinet Secretary, I know there’s a great deal of engagement that goes on with faith communities in Wales and the Welsh Government, and that’s work that I know is greatly valued by faith communities, but I think it is important that representative bodies, whether they be Christian or Muslim, in that faith communities forum represent the plethora of voices on behalf of their communities, because we all know that there are differences of opinions, different denominations et cetera, and I’m not confident that, actually, those are always represented around that table. I wonder what work you are doing to ensure that they are inclusive of the faiths that they represent.

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

We have regular conversations, actually. The faith forum, which is chaired by the First Minister, often has discussions with representatives of the sector and who they are representing. In fact, I remember a discussion from the last meeting about a group that felt their voices weren’t as strong as they could be, and how we were going to address that, and what I’d like to do is make sure that the people who are represented around the table can actually embed the voice of the many around there. If there is a very specific group of people that you’re concerned about, please drop me a line.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Cabinet Secretary, the answer to Bethan Jenkins, I think, has highlighted the issues about how this radicalism can arise in any sector; it’s not just particular sectors. So, do you agree with me that, actually, we need to undertake a measure to prevent radicalisation of young people from the hard right, which creates such extremist views, and what are you doing about that?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

Of course, and, as I said to Bethan Jenkins, this isn’t about one particular group of people. Actually, many of the referrals that come through the Prevent programme in Wales relate to far-right extremism as well, and that’s something I know the police are very keen to make sure they tackle, and front-line staff are given training to look at this in the public sector.

The new Welsh baccalaureate for schools and colleges includes an option that helps support teachers and tutors, also, in facilitating safe and constructive discussions amongst learners on topics around extremism and community cohesion, and I think this is a job about starting very early, to ensure that our young people are tolerant as they grow up. They are the future, and if we can embed that as a natural instinct—to be tolerant—then I think that’s the way we need to go: to invest in our young people.

Simon Thomas (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

4. What discussions has the Cabinet Secretary held regarding the funding of community groups in light of the decision to bring Communities First to an end? OAQ(5)0171(CC)[W]

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

Thank you for the question. A wide-ranging engagement exercise was held with individuals, organisations and community groups across Wales on the Government’s new approach to resilient communities. It’s now for the lead bodies to engage with third sector delivery partners and local communities on their transition arrangements in line with our guidance.

Simon Thomas (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

I thank the Minister for that reply. Turning from the general to the specific, I know that the forum in Penparcau are looking forward to welcoming the Minister, visiting in September I think, and if he looks around the new building outside, he’ll see—. First of all, he’ll see the place where I live, but then, more importantly, he’ll see the place where people have lived in Penparcau for at least 3,000 years, which is Pen Dinas hillfort, which is one of the most significant hillforts in mid Wales, and an underutilised tourist attraction for Aberystwyth and the whole area, it has to be said.

The forum there are very interested in developing ideas in which they become part of the custodians of that hillfort, in that it brings the community together, it raises community pride, it tells the story of the community that’s there, it involves young people, it involves a potential of outdoor benefits, and, of course, it could become a way of attracting tourists and visitors to the area. So, in terms of heritage and this particular undervalued and underused aspect, perhaps, of community cohesion, what discussions can he have with Ken Skates in advance of his visit in September about how we can bring the community together in Penparcau and work together with the statutory bodies and the local community to make the very best of one of the greatest natural assets we have?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

Indeed, and I am very familiar with that area. It wouldn’t be my first visit to Penparcau, indeed. I would ask the Member also to have a conversation with Hannah Blythyn, who is also very keen on developing structures. Flint castle is in a Communities First area in north Wales—again, people engaging in that sector of community, and embedding respect and opportunities in those fields. I will talk to Ken Skates, of course, prior to my visit, on the basis that you’ve told me that’s what the discussions may lead to. [Laughter.] I am encouraged by the Member’s positivity, but, more importantly, I’m encouraged by the residents and members of Penparcau, because they’ve seen an opportunity, post Communities First, to develop an opportunity for the future.

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

Well, six years after you chose not to be advised by the Wales Council for Voluntary Action report, ‘Communities First—A Way Forward’, which said the missing ingredient was community ownership, and after £0.5 billion having gone into the programme, you told the Equality, Local Government and Communities Committee last week that the programme would not be replaced, that the record of its work in Wales’s most deprived areas had been mixed, and that the figures aren’t moving. You’ve now said that joined-up Government would ensure that all spending decisions would have tackling poverty in mind, which, of course, is what you and your predecessors have consistently said. But how are you engaging with the Wales Council for Voluntary Action and its partners on this agenda to ensure that that missing ingredient doesn’t remain missing as we move forward?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

Well, I’m extremely proud of the Communities First programme that took place across our communities. The staff and volunteers across those programmes should be congratulated on what they did. They’ve stopped our communities getting poorer, from what I believe, and making sure that there is an opportunity to move on with the legacy funding that I announced earlier this year. It is now for the partnerships locally to determine what their well-being assessments are for those communities, and we’re working very closely with them to ensure that we have the best available opportunities. Ken Skates and I—Ken is the lead Minister on tackling poverty—believe fundamentally that the route out of poverty is quality jobs and skills, and that’s what we will be pursuing, with vigour, across all our communities across Wales.

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

5. How is the Welsh Government utilising the assets in our localities to tackle inequality? OAQ(5)0165(CC)

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

Our regeneration and infrastructure projects focus on tackling inequality. The community facilities programme, for example, provides capital grants for community-led projects.

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

Thank you. Well, building on the theme of the last few questions, the routes out of poverty you identify I completely share, but unless you get to the root causes of the problems that people face, often the routes out of poverty won’t be accessed. Last week, your colleague, the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Local Government told the Economy, Infrastructure and Skills Committee that the job of local authorities is to identify and capture the strengths and assets of people in that area. We’ve heard of co-production principles, but they’re about things that you say you support—equality, mutuality, working alongside the people, doing things with them rather than to them and for them so that they move from being passive recipients to active participants. What meetings or discussions have you therefore had—now 13 months after its launch—with the co-production network for Wales so that you can engage, share and learn together on the methodologies, which are working in communities in Wales, UK and across the world, and have been doing for decades, and can significantly help deliver the solutions that we all seek?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

Well, I think the Member has several groups of individuals that he represents well, on the basis that they must come and see him on a weekly basis. But what I can say is that we introduced legislation here, which was the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015, which embeds the principles of working together on exactly the issues that the Member raises today about co-production and opportunity. All of the well-being assessments are being created across the public bodies, and I would expect all of those to have respect for organisations that work across the length and breadth of Wales to deliver a better outcome for those communities.

Vikki Howells (Labour, Cynon Valley)

6. Will the Cabinet Secretary provide an update on the work of the Vibrant and Viable Places strategy? OAQ(5)0160(CC)

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

Thank you for the question. The Vibrant and Viable Places capital regeneration programme has been successful in providing support and investment across many communities across Wales. I will be announcing further details regarding a new capital regeneration programme shortly.

Vikki Howells (Labour, Cynon Valley)

In my constituency, the town-centre partnership fund element of VVP was used to support important town-centre initiatives like the colourfully named Yabba Dabba Dare and Faberdare, which played an important role in bringing people into Aberdare town centre. Whilst acknowledging that the programme was always crafted as a finite scheme, what support can the Welsh Government offer to similar community-driven events in the future to enable them to attract people into our towns and villages?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

Of course, the opportunities that the VVP programme has given have transformed some areas across Wales, and I will be giving that further consideration. My team didn’t believe that I would dare to say ‘Yabba Dabba Dare’ today in the Chamber, but I have, and I congratulate them again on the work that they have done in your community, making a real difference. The programme I intend to launch in the next couple of months will give more details about how opportunities like this can be taken forward not only in your Cynon Valley seat, but also in areas across Wales.

David Melding (Conservative, South Wales Central)

I’m delighted to also commend the regeneration of Aberdare town centre. [Interruption.] I like being generous. It really is one of the best examples I’ve ever seen of use of this sort of money, and it does remind people of ‘the Queen of the Valleys’, as I think Aberdare used to be called.

I want to talk about housing renewal. Will you assure us that this will still be a central focus? The use of area-based housing-led regeneration programmes is really important, especially when it uses as many local businesses and employees living locally as possible, too.

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I think David Melding was going to say ‘yabba dabba doo’ there at one point, if I was right. This is going to be great in translation, I would suggest. [Laughter.] But can I share with the Member that I think it was important that the VPP scheme did have a focus on housing regeneration alongside the general regeneration of a particular area. It still is a priority for this Government. We’ve got 20,000 homes to build, and I would see that VPP plays a part in that too.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Ynys Môn)

It’s been exciting to see the difference that Vibrant and Viable Places funding has made to the town of Holyhead, where a number of projects have taken place or are in the pipeline. But, of course, the economic problems aren’t limited to those areas that have been identified for investment through this funding to date. So, what assurance can the Minister give that other areas will be able to take advantage of such opportunities in the near future? I include rural areas, which suffer the same social and economic problems, and, specifically in my constituency, Amlwch, which has suffered social and economic pressure for many generations now. When will we have the same opportunities as those that have been enjoyed in Holyhead?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

Of course, the Member is right to raise the issue that there are many areas across Wales that need regeneration input in terms of some finance. But what I’m cautious not to do is spread the jam too thinly so that everybody gets a little bit but actually it doesn’t make as big an impact as it should do. I want that to be determined locally, so local authorities have those decisions. Of course, the bids, when they come in, if it’s a rural scheme that wishes to be the priority of the local authority, then so be it, but I’m making sure that we have the biggest impact for the financial investment that we make.

Suzy Davies (Conservative, South Wales West)

Cabinet Secretary, I don’t know whether you’ve heard of an organisation called Faith in Families. They’re a local Swansea-based organisation—

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

You need to ask the question on the order paper.

Suzy Davies (Conservative, South Wales West)

I’m very sorry.

Suzy Davies (Conservative, South Wales West)

7. Will the Cabinet Secretary provide details of the transitional arrangements for Communities First? OAQ(5)0156(CC)

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

Lead delivery bodies have developed detailed transition plans.

Suzy Davies (Conservative, South Wales West)

Thank you very much. I’ll go back to Faith in Families. It’s an organisation based in Swansea that concentrates on early intervention with families that are vulnerable. Thanks to Communities First, actually, they’ve been able to redevelop three of their family centres. Since the announcement that Communities First is going, they’re in very uncertain circumstances, shall I say, because they’re not aware of the announcement that you made recently regarding the transitional period between Communities First and whatever’s following. As this is one example, I’m wondering if you’re able to say how far the message has got with those who’ve already received Communities First funding in the past about your current proposals. I’m just thinking that if it’s happening to Faith in Families, it may be happening to other organisations.

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

Well, I’m very surprised by the Member’s question in detail, because Faith in Families have been running a media campaign since October announcing—warning—that they’ll have to make staff redundancies and close the new community hub in St Teilo’s once their Communities First funding ends. So, I’m really surprised that they’re telling you that they don’t know about transition funding, because they’re on the money in terms of making sure that I’m aware, and other social media outlets are too. I am aware of Swansea’s local delivery board detailed transition plans, and Faith in Families, I understand, will receive funding—full funding—until March of 2018.

Neil McEvoy (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

8. How successful has the £122 million invested in Flying Start and Families First been in supporting fathers, especially separated fathers, to fulfil their parenting role? OAQ(5)0167(CC)

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

Flying Start and Families First work with the whole family, taking an individualised, tailored, and flexible approach to engage and support both fathers and mothers. Many services also provide dedicated support specifically adapted to the particular needs of fathers, including non-resident fathers.

Neil McEvoy (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

Okay, thanks. I think the honest answer, really, should have been that you don’t actually know, because no data are collected. So, just to prove the point now, in front of everybody in this Senedd, can you give us a figure—a figure—on how many fathers are engaged?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I think it’s regrettable, Presiding Officer, that the Member suggests that my answer was dishonest in respect of that. I would suggest that the Member—. I refer the Member to my first response. Supporting both fathers and mothers to adopt positive parenting behaviour is an integral part of Flying Start and Families First, and I’m extremely proud of the work that they do across all the families across Wales.

Neil McEvoy (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

So, the answer is: you don’t know.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Mark Isherwood.

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

Thank you. The 2016 UK annual fatherhood survey found that 25 per cent of dads said there wasn’t enough support to help them play a positive role in family life. In Wales, the Welsh dads survey, which has only just been published, found that although most fathers and father figures do not have problems with their care giving, two thirds still felt their role wasn’t valued equally with the other parent by authorities and society, and nearly 80 per cent think the Government, i.e. Welsh Government, should do more to help fathers. How do you respond to that, where the concerns primarily relate to the way systems seem to work in public sector bodies, rather than the intent of the people delivering those systems?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

Of course, and I’m grateful for the Member’s question in terms of how we are able to take this forward. As I said earlier, both organisations, and other organisations, support both parents, families—mothers and fathers of a family unit. I’m not sighted on the detail that the Member may wish to raise with me, particularly in terms of detail on where he seems to feel that there is some lacking support. I’d be happy to have a conversation with the Member, either by letter or otherwise with my officials.

Michelle Brown (UKIP, North Wales)

Cabinet Secretary, have you considered how staff at Flying Start and Families First can identify possible parental alienation in children, and have you investigated ways they can help foster healthy family relationships in cases of parental alienation?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

Yes, of course, and I think the Member is right to raise this issue. Look, we absolutely get that parental alienation is a factor in the determination of the success of a young person or a family unit, and we recognise that happens on both sides, of mothers and of fathers as well. I am confident that the Families First and Flying Start organisations have the capacity to recognise this and deal with this appropriately. What I would say is that this is a very complex piece of delivery in terms of social intervention with individuals who are in crisis. But I am confident that my teams, including Children and Family Court Advisory Support Service Cymru, have the ability to deal with this successfully.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary.

3. 3. Topical Questions

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The next item is the topical questions—Adam Price.

Adam Price (Plaid Cymru, Carmarthen East and Dinefwr)

What actions is the Welsh Government taking in response to the proposed plans to close the Tesco Customer Engagement Centre in Cardiff? TAQ(5)0191(EI)

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Further to discussions and meetings with Tesco and with USDAW, I’m meeting with the Welsh Contact Centre Forum today to explore employment opportunities at other regulated customer service centres in the region. We are also establishing a taskforce to secure the best possible outcome for staff.

Adam Price (Plaid Cymru, Carmarthen East and Dinefwr)

Speaking earlier today at the Welsh Retail Consortium event at the Senedd, Cabinet Secretary, you discussed the importance of effective dialogue between Welsh Government and the retail sector. In that context, how surprised—indeed, how angry—were you that Tesco, Wales’s biggest private sector employer, gave you no advance warning whatsoever, as I understand it, about these substantial job losses? What’s the Welsh Government’s position on how their loyal workforce was treated? I have an e-mail in my possession sent by a member of the Tesco senior management staff in September of last year, clearly implying to its workforce that there was no risk to their jobs, despite concerns that were circulating at the time while the building lease was in place until 2020. Now, it’s clear, on that basis, Tesco mislead these workers. Many of them will have made important decisions on their future based on this information. Now, is that behaviour acceptable, in the Welsh Government’s view, from a reputable employer? If it’s not, shouldn’t he be naming and shaming Tesco? Finally, he’s referred, in some of his comments he made immediately following the announcement, to he was going to try and seek an urgent meeting with Tesco to persuade them to think again. Can he say a little more on how those discussions are proceeding? Has the Welsh Government put a counter-proposal to Tesco on the table in partnership with unions and local authorities?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

I’d like to thank the Member for the points he raises and the questions as well. I was deeply, deeply disappointed, not just by the decision, but by the way that Welsh Government, and, indeed, many, many workers, came to learn about the proposed closure of the facility. It’s quite apparent now that many employees learned about the decision on social media, which is an entirely unacceptable and not responsible action from any employer. It appears, given today’s news, that Tesco is embarking on a massive cost-cutting exercise with an attempt in mind to cost-cut something in the region of £1.5 billion off their bottom line. There’s been a further announcement today of 1,200 jobs going at their headquarters. I think this demonstrates that Tesco is pursuing a cost-cutting agenda that places profit, sadly, ahead of the workforce.

We’ve had discussions with the company. A meeting took place on Monday. I spoke with the CEO just last week expressing my disappointment, my deep disappointment, at the way that the decision has been reached. I was told again that there was nothing that Welsh Government could have offered or could do to stop what is a purely commercial decision, but I did impress upon the company the need to work with all partners to identify as many opportunities for those affected by the decision to move on to secure and well-paid employment in the sector.

Now, a number of actions are being taken forward as a consequence of the discussions that took place with Tesco just this week. We are calling on Tesco to ensure that any outsourcing of work that takes place considers Wales as an option for employment and for operations. We’re working with a number of interested parties who are looking at potentially using the building as an investment opportunity and an employment opportunity. We’re working with the Welsh Contact Centre Forum, identifying companies that could recruit, and, indeed working with those who have expressed an interest in recruiting. We know that there are at least five significant companies who are looking at taking on those employees who were affected by the decision.

I’m also determined to ensure that the taskforce brings together a number of agencies, including, of course, the contact centre forum, but also Careers Wales and Business Wales and other bodies who are able to assist people in identifying alternative work. It’s worth saying that in spite of what Tesco have decided to do—and they have laid out the reasons why they took the decisions—in spite of that decision, the sector remains in a buoyant position here in Wales. We have many, many immensely skilled people working in the sector. A huge proportion, of course, are employed by Tesco and will be affected by this deeply regrettable decision, but we remain of the view that a significant number will be able to access work opportunities immediately, not just within Tesco, where they could be redeployed, but in those other companies that are looking to recruit very, very soon. We will be working with individuals through the ReAct programme, with businesses, again through the ReAct programme, through the Welsh Contact Centre Forum, and with a number of anchor and regionally important companies, to identify as many job opportunities as possible in what is a buoyant sector.

Andrew RT Davies (Conservative, South Wales Central)

I couldn’t agree more with some of the sentiments that you’ve expressed today, Cabinet Secretary. These are hugely troubling times for the 1,100 employees at this facility in Cardiff, which has a very good record over 27 years of establishment in the capital city of Wales. The dedication and professionalism of the employees deserve better treatment than they received last week, I have to say. It is regrettable that many of those employees only heard the news through social media and third parties, shall we say.

It is a fact, though, Cabinet Secretary, that these are proposed job losses at the moment. Regrettably, very often they turn into reality, though, at the end of the process. You’ve had a week with your officials to digest the announcement, to liaise with the chief executive and other contacts at the company. In your assessment, is there any hope that some of these jobs might be salvaged within the Tesco family? If that is a possibility, is there any estimation as to the likely number of jobs that might be made available to some of the employees on the site?

Secondly, the importance, obviously, of the package that the Government will put in place cannot be underestimated in a jobs announcement that is the biggest single loss of jobs in 10 years in Wales, and that will put forward huge logistical challenges to the support package you might put in place. Are you confident, on the assessment that you have made, that the package will meet the needs of the employees to find alternative employment and, ultimately, secure the employment that pays the mortgage, puts the food on the table, and puts the shirts on the backs of the kids back at home? Because those are the questions that employees will want to know.

If I may also just press you: given that Tesco is such a key strategic partner in the Welsh economy—19,000 employees across Wales, the biggest single private employer in Wales—it cannot be acceptable that you were blindsided by this announcement. I cannot believe that you do not sit, or your officials do not sit, in forums or meetings where opportunities are discussed, where hurdles are discussed, and what you can do to facilitate overcoming those hurdles. What type of relationship do you actually have with these big employers to make sure that there is genuine trust on both sides of the table when you are discussing putting facilities in place that assist employers to strengthen their position here in Wales, safeguard their position in Wales, and, ultimately, just have a bit of honesty?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Can I thank the Member for his questions and also for agreeing with my sentiments concerning Tesco’s decision? I’ll deal with that final point first, if I may. It wasn’t just the Welsh Government that was not informed in good time about the decision. The UK Government—I think that the Secretary of State is on record as saying that they were not given advance notice either. I think everybody has been critical of the way that Tesco allowed loyal skilled employees to learn first on social media about their fate. The Scottish Government were not given advance notice. There were no discussions with the Scottish Government, and I’m not aware of any discussions that took place with the regional authorities in England concerning today’s announcement either.

Tesco have decided to make these announcements without consulting with any level of government whatsoever. Indeed, our engagement comes primarily through the Welsh Contact Centre Forum, which acts as, as it says, a forum for contact centre businesses. Unfortunately, it appears that engagement by Tesco with the forum itself did not lead to any advance notice of this decision being made. Again, that is deeply regrettable, and I have expressed this to the company—I’ve said it publicly.

It’s important that sector organisations, such as the contact centre forum, are given the trust by those employers who rely on those bodies for advice, for opportunities, and for sharing best practice and sector intelligence. I would invite Tesco, as a major employer in the Welsh economy, to engage more thoroughly with the Welsh Contact Centre Forum, and with retail sector bodies as well, to ensure that, as we move forward, as many job opportunities can be saved, and, indeed, as many of those who may be affected by the decision, if the job losses are indeed implemented, can find alternative work—.

The Member asks a very important question about how many jobs could be salvaged within the Tesco group. This is something that I’ve asked the company in various discussions and meetings. It is likely, we are told, that a number of jobs can be salvaged within the wider Tesco group within this region. Pinning the company down to an exact figure at the moment is not possible, because the company itself is not able to gauge how many opportunities there are across the region. However, it’s clear that it won’t be anywhere near the 1,000 plus jobs that they propose to lose, and for that reason it’s important that we look at bringing forward a number of pipeline projects—inward investment projects—that could be used to absorb a significant number of the job losses that could follow the 45-day consultation.

I’m also working closely with the trade unions and with local Members as well to make sure that there is a co-ordinated response to this across the political spectrum and with our social partners. I’ve spoken with USDAW on numerous occasions, I’ve spoken with the local Members of Parliament who have raised this matter in the Commons and I’ve also spoken with Assembly Members. I think it’s absolutely imperative now that Tesco continue to work with the Wales Contact Centre Forum and, of course, with Welsh Government, and, indeed, with the council here in Cardiff, to identify as many opportunities as possible for the people that have been loyal to them for many years. This is an award-winning facility and the loyal workers who have been employed there deserve every opportunity to get back into employment if they miss out on work after the 45-day consultation period.

Gareth Bennett (UKIP, South Wales Central)

It does seem rather curious that, with job losses on this scale, Tesco didn’t give any prior warning to any relevant organisations, such as yourself or the Wales Contact Centre Forum. There is also the issue—well, you mentioned it yourself, actually—regarding information given to the actual employees, because I’ve also been told that the staff that weren’t on shift at the time the job losses were announced weren’t contacted by Tesco, but they did find out either through fellow workers or, unfortunately, through social media, as you pointed out yourself. So, it wasn’t very good practice from Tesco and they do seem to have acted in a rather cavalier fashion altogether with these job losses. So, that is unfortunate, and what can be salvaged from this we don’t know. But I welcome your efforts in trying to alleviate the job losses as far as can possibly be done. Hopefully, people can be redeployed as far as possible, although you now say that it won’t be anywhere near the total number of job losses.

There is a structure in Cardiff in particular with call centres. This has been a growth area in recent years, as you’ve identified. So, hopefully, people can be integrated in the existing call centre network. Of course, conditions do vary across this sector. Tesco, in fact, I believe, was one of the better operations as far as the employees were concerned. So, it’s all the more unfortunate that they’ve now treated the employees rather badly over this.

Of course, if people aren’t going to stay within Tesco, they will be wondering about redundancy packages. But there is probably little that you can say about that. As far as I’m aware, the unions are currently negotiating. I don’t know if there’s anything else you can add to what you’ve said. But thanks for your contribution.

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Can I thank the Member for his questions and also agree with his concerns about the way that this announcement was made? It does appear as though news had leaked, and that that news might otherwise have been part of today’s announcement by Tesco of a major restructuring effort in an attempt to cut £1.5 billion from the bottom line as it seeks to become more competitive and achieve higher levels of profits. I think there’s no doubt that demand for skilled people in this sector in this region is still great, and for that reason I am confident that a very significant number of people will be able to secure alternative employment, if those jobs are lost after the 45-day consultation period. The trade union, USDAW, I know, is already very, very active in engaging with employees and with the company, and USDAW are doing a sterling job indeed with consulting and engaging with Government and with Members of Parliament as well.

Hefin David (Labour, Caerphilly)

I’ve estimated, Cabinet Secretary, that there’ll be approximately 100 jobs in Caerphilly affected by this. Last night, I attended a long-arranged consultation meeting with major retailers, which included Morrisons, Asda, Boots and Specsavers, and Tesco were down to attend and they weren’t there. They were notable by their absence, and they were missing again today, as far as I could see, from the Welsh Retail Consortium meeting that Adam Price has referred to. This is simply not good enough, because the appearance is that they’re running scared and that they’re afraid to speak to Assembly Members. I would have sought them out to speak about this. I heard it too from USDAW. It demonstrates the importance of having a strong trade union, and I commend the work that USDAW have done. It appears also that Julie Morgan AM and Anna McMorrin MP have had to force the door down to get to Tesco to talk to workers and to talk to officers at Tesco as well. It’s simply not good enough. So, when you speak to Tesco management, please could you ensure that you impress upon them the importance of talking to elected representatives? Because we heard directly from their workforce. I’ve got stories from their workforce that demonstrate this isn’t good enough. And indeed, I’d add that representatives of other retailers that I’ve spoken to have said this is a textbook example of how not to do employment relations; it’s absolutely appalling.

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Can I thank Hefin for the points that he raises? I agree entirely with him; I am concerned that Tesco’s engagement with public servants needs to be improved, and so too Tesco’s engagement and communications with its own employees—the people that generate those profits that they are seeking to increase—need to improve as well. Anna McMorrin and Jo Stevens have fought very hard for those people who face losing their jobs, and I know that they will continue to do so. It’s worth my informing Members today as well that I have asked for work to be conducted concerning skills and emerging trends within this sector, so that we can ensure that the contact centre sector in Wales is at the forefront of emerging digital technologies, and takes every opportunity to upskill the workforce as far as possible.

Neil McEvoy (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

I think like everyone in the Chamber, I feel very, very bad for the employees who are about to lose their jobs. I know some of them, in fact, that work up there. It’s not new for us to lose jobs in this way through big corporations not really valuing their workforce. The solution really lies in creating new jobs, so would you consider setting an entrepreneurial fund so that people who will be losing their jobs at Tesco could maybe have the opportunity to set up a new business?

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

I think the Member raises a very important point about the need to ensure that people who face redundancy are given the right support to get back into work or, indeed, to start their own company. ReAct 3 will provide financial support to people who are affected, and also financial support to potential employers of those people who may be affected. But there are also Welsh Government-supported initiatives concerning shared space, incubation hubs and so forth, that also offer bursaries to people who wish to be innovative and entrepreneurial, not just when they start out on their careers—often young people—but also people who have been made redundant but have an idea for a business and need a number of things: one, financial support; two, support from peers; and three, opportunities to break into a certain field. So, that’s in part why the Welsh Government through its programme for government is keen to roll out more shared space and incubation hubs for entrepreneurs.

Jenny Rathbone (Labour, Cardiff Central)

I think that we should be left in little doubt that the supermarket sector is really a dog-eat-dog, cut-throat-competition business, and I’m afraid, like any unfettered market, it eventually leads to monopoly. I suppose I don’t want to live in some sort of dystopian future where we all have to buy our food from one supermarket. So, there are some concerns here about the way in which the supermarket industry dominates the UK food market and what we can do to regulate it so that they behave a bit better than Tesco has behaved in this case.

What Julie Morgan and Hefin David and I want—and others who have constituents who are affected by this—is to have some sort of clear strategy for the future to ensure that they aren’t being pushed into other jobs that are then going to be eliminated in turn. It seems to me that automation is one of the issues that makes it very challenging for people in the service sector, where people are going to have to be prepared to retrain and change in line with new technologies. So, I wondered if you could say a little bit more on how your thoughts on developing your new economic strategy could be influenced by what has happened in the case of Tesco.

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Can I thank Jenny Rathbone for the points that she raises and for her question? I think no matter how competitive a market is, employees shouldn’t be treated with anything other than upmost respect and loyalty by their employers. Of course, shoppers play an important role in influencing corporate behaviour and I’m sure that many shoppers will be somewhat disappointed by the way that those employees have been treated by a company that they may have been loyal to as customers.

I think the issue of automation is really, really significant given that we know that advances in technology are accelerating and we need to be in a position to adapt to what will soon become a new reality and also take advantage of new technologies. That is why I just mentioned that I have commissioned a piece of work that will look at existing studies that have been carried out, particularly by the Wales Contact Centre Forum, but that goes beyond that in looking at how technology and automation could change the sector and what needs to be done to ensure that the right skills are developed within the sector to adapt to that change.

Lee Waters (Labour, Llanelli)

Minister, I think it’s significant that the 1,100 jobs that were taken from Cardiff resulted in just 250 jobs, according to reports, by the time they got to Dundee. So, no doubt there were a range of factors at work, but clearly automation is happening now; rather than being a future prospect, it is live and it’s impacting our communities.

I was pleased to invite you along to a roundtable on Monday with a range of experts in automation, artificial intelligence and robotics to start considering the scale of the impact that this can have on our economy. I’m delighted to hear you’ve commissioned a piece of research on the particular impact on retail and I would urge you to make sure that your economic strategy, when it’s produced, has a specific focus on automation—not simply on the threats but the opportunities too. That was one of the messages from the roundtable on Monday: there are very real advantages to public services, and to all of us as consumers, from automation, but there’s no denying the fact it’s going to change the shape of our workforce and the way that we work and we need to be ready for it.

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

I thank Lee Waters for the points that he raises. Actually, the discussion that took place on Monday—which he convened, I think—was incredibly informative. It was as a consequence of that meeting that I considered it essential that we move forward with this piece of work concerning specifically contact centres, but that, given the emerging strategy, will be relevant to all sectors right across the economy.

Lee Waters is absolutely right to identify the apparent disparity between the 250 jobs that would be created in Dundee and more than 1,000 that we face losing here in Cardiff. I put that very question about automation to Tesco. I was told that automation is not playing a part in this decision, but I think there is no doubt whatsoever that automation will change the sector and we need to be prepared for it. The Member is absolutely right to say that it’s not just that there will be challenges; there will also be huge opportunities. We know that automation will only go so far, that people will still require a human-to-human point of contact, and that where there is automation, that automation has to be delivered in a way that is advanced on where it is right now. For that reason, we need to be developing the new technology, we need to be the programmers, we need to be the people who deploy that technology.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

I thank the Cabinet Secretary.

4. 4. 90-second Statements

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The 90-second statements next. Vikki Howells.

Vikki Howells (Labour, Cynon Valley)

Diolch, Llywydd. Today, I want to reflect on the life and achievements of Dr Shah Imtiaz. Dr Imtiaz achieved prominence in 1988, when he was elected as mayor of Cynon Valley borough council, becoming the first Asian mayor in Wales, which he described as the proudest moment in his life.

But Dr Imtiaz had been at the heart of the community since he arrived in Aberdare in 1970 to become a family doctor. As Councillor Mike Forey, his ward colleague for 19 years, said, Dr Imtiaz made a significant contribution to the political life of Cynon Valley, and to Aberdare in particular. He represented the town on Cynon valley and Rhondda Cynon Taf councils for 35 years, but his passionate activism extended beyond municipal office.

Dr Imtiaz, perhaps as would be expected from a local general practitioner, was actively involved in the Aberdare hospital action group, and campaigned against the pollution caused by the phurnacite plant in Abercwmboi. Showing his empathy with the community he had made his home, he championed the miners during the 1980s and the 1990s. Dr Imtiaz was a passionate advocate of devolution, chaired Cynon Valley CND, and helped install the peace pole in front of Aberdare library. He never shied from his beliefs, stating that he was a ‘socialist by conscience’.

Sadly, Dr Imtiaz passed away on 19 June. Our thoughts are with his children, but his memory and his legacy will surely live on.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Dawn Bowden.

Dawn Bowden (Labour, Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney)

Diolch, Llywydd. Last week, I had the privilege of attending the Chwarae Teg Womenspire awards, where the work of women across Wales was celebrated and recognised, with awards in categories ranging from community activism to business, industry, and the arts. And I was delighted that Sarah Draper, the fitness managing director at Inspire Fitness in Merthyr, won the game changer of the year award.

With the help of grant funding, Sarah launched a group called Merthyr Girls Can in 2016, bringing together otherwise difficult-to-reach women, in terms of health and well-being, and introduced them to fitness. Sarah is teaching these women, and their families, that it’s important to get out there and engage in physical activity, be it walking, running, or just kicking a ball. Through Merthyr Girls Can, they receive self-esteem coaching, nutritional advice, one-to-one personal training, coaching support, a 20-week training programme, and unlimited exercise sessions. Due to its huge success, a further three Merthyr Girls Can groups have been formed, with phenomenal results. And Merthyr Girls Can 4 started on 1 April this year.

Through Sarah’s hard work, support and encouragement, many Merthyr women have achieved amazing things, entering triathlons, marathons, gaining qualifications and employment in sport, and inspiring others into fitness. There are endless testimonials to Sarah’s work, but I would like to thank Sarah, and those like her, who give up their time tirelessly to help others. Without them, our objective of making Wales a healthier nation would be so much harder to achieve.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Llyr Gruffydd.

Llyr Gruffydd (Plaid Cymru, North Wales)

The Llangollen International Musical Eisteddfod celebrates its seventieth birthday this year, and as with all years, we will see competitors from across the world coming to sing, dance and enjoy the glories of Llangollen and the Dee valley. The first international eisteddfod was held in June 1947, and following the horrors of the second world war, there was a vision that music could heal some of the wounds of war, and that music could be used to promote peace.

The first eisteddfod was a huge success, as a result of the fact that the local populous contributed over £1,000 of their own money—which accounts for some £35,000 in today’s money. And it continues to rely on the hard work of many volunteers, and we thank them for all their work. Over 300,000 competitors, from over 100 different countries, have come to compete on the festival’s stage over the years, with tens of thousands of visitors attending every year. And the festival still promotes world peace, with local children presenting the annual message of peace.

It’s welcomed some of the biggest names in world music. We know of the relationship with Luciano Pavarotti, and his visit with a choir from Modena in 1955 that inspired him to become professional. This year, the festival will welcome Bryn Terfel, as well as the jazz, soul and gospel singer, Gregory Porter.

In these days of discord and international dispute, in an age where walls are being erected, and boundaries placed between nations, let us celebrate the way in which the Llangollen International Musical Eisteddfod has opened our arms to the rest of the world. Its age-old message of peace, tolerance and fraternity is as important today as it was 70 years ago.

5. 5. Debate by Individual Members under Standing Order 11.21(iv): Energy Efficiency

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The next item is the debate by individual Members under Standing Order 11.21(iv) on energy efficiency, and I call on Huw Irranca-Davies to move the motion.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

Diolch, Llywydd. I’m delighted to introduce this debate, and could I thank colleagues—Jeremy Miles, Simon Thomas, Lee Waters—who’ve also put their name to this debate today, and others who might be speaking? But could I also thank those hidden servants of the house in the research unit as well, because, in preparation for this debate, anything that I say that sounds good will be because of them? Anything lousy will be me.

So, I want to first of all explain why we’re speaking to this motion today, which is seeking to get the real formal, hard-headed recognition of energy efficiency, particularly domestic energy efficiency, as national infrastructure. But also, we say within this motion that the scale needs to be dramatically scaled up. That doesn’t simply rely on Government. We look at innovative ways of doing that. So, for example, within the motion, we talk about the use of pension schemes and other innovative financial models to scale-up that dramatic scale-up in investment that we want to see. But, most importantly, there’s the inclusion, as national infrastructure, and in Wales’s case in particular, within the national infrastructure commission for Wales remit—. That is emerging. It’s there in the background and going along. We want to see this come forward and be written down in black and white—that domestic energy efficiency is part of their remit. Why? Well, I’m going to begin by talking about the 2015 report by Frontier Economics, ‘Energy Efficiency: An infrastructure priority’. It made the case for classifying domestic energy efficiency as infrastructure. They noted that traditionally the term ‘infrastructure’ brings to mind projects like roads and rail and energy supply initiatives, but the report explored a wide range of definitions of infrastructure, covering two aspects.

Huw Irranca-Davies (Labour, Ogmore)

The first is the characteristics, that infrastructure is generally described as ‘capital’ or ‘involving physical structures’. But, secondly, the functions, and they referred to the two most recent definitions from the UK Treasury and the London School of Economics Growth Commission, which described infrastructure as an input to the production of goods and services and the requirement for the operation of the economy. And the report goes on to suggest that domestic energy efficiency constitutes infrastructure investment because it frees up energy capacity for other uses, just as investment in new-generation capacity would, and also that such investments provide public services by reducing carbon emissions and improving health and well-being. It also goes on to say that it fits with the way that energy efficiency is considered by a wide range of international organisations, such as the European Investment Bank and the International Energy Agency. And it is also consistent with the current and ongoing roll-out of the smart meter programme, which is one of the UK Government’s top infrastructure priorities. It works across the board. It should be national infrastructure.

Let’s turn to the benefits of energy efficiency. Within that particular report—I’ll start there—they point to the two key things that investment in domestic energy efficiency does. One: it reduces energy use. By doing so, it reduces bills, it frees up energy sector capacity to be used elsewhere in the economy, and it reduces the need to invest new energy system capacity. This reduces carbon emissions and decreases the exposure of consumers to volatile fuel prices. Far from the argument that putting money into this is actually a burden on consumers, for many of the poorest and most fuel-poor households, it actually protects them against that volatility in gas prices and oil prices and everything else. And, in addition, these investments provide option value. Because they involve multiple small incremental investment, the scale and the focus of the programme can be adjusted up and down over time. And also, they point out, it results in warmer, more comfortable homes. It increases health and well-being, and may also increase, by doing that, labour productivity—if we want to look at the social engineering side of this as well. So, there are a number of benefits, but they also point to economic growth and job creation.

The UK Green Building Council argues that the home energy efficiency market can stimulate both construction and manufacturing industries. It points out that, currently, over 135,000 people are employed in the energy-efficiency industry, but it quotes figures from Consumer Focus that suggest that major investment—bigger investment—in energy efficiency could almost double the number to 260,000 people by 2027, and it goes on to say that installing energy efficiency measures usually requires local labour, often from small and medium-sized businesses and microbusinesses. And because of this, investment has the potential to boost local employment. We’ve talked previously about the need to do this and about innovative ways of thinking to do this. This is exactly the foundation economy approach there. And this is supported by figures contained within the Welsh Government’s infrastructure investment plan, which I’ll turn to in a moment, which states that over 80 per cent of the businesses that delivered phase 1 of the Arbed programme, under the Warm Front programme, operate primarily or solely in Wales. It’s a win-win right across the board.

Let’s talk about energy security. The UK Green Building Council report states that reducing domestic energy demands through energy efficiency is vital to ensuring that there’s a sufficient supply to meet the UK’s energy needs. It goes further: it says that investing in energy efficiency is not only more cost-effective in meeting the UK’s growing demand for energy than building additional energy generation infrastructure—stop building so many power stations and actually invest in this as the better substitute.

Data from the Sustainable Energy Association show that energy-saving measures cost less on average per unit of power than large-scale power generation. And 2012 figures from the Department of Energy and Climate Change show that, through cost-effective investment in all forms of energy efficiency, the UK could be saving 196 TWh in 2020, equivalent to 22 power stations of energy. So, meeting energy needs to demand reduction will also reduce the UK’s dependency on fossil fuels and gas.

Let me turn to the reduction in carbon emissions. We’ve made our commitment in Wales, as has the UK, to reducing carbon emissions. In 2014 the residential sector in Wales accounted for 8 per cent of emissions. The sector is dominated by emissions from residential stationary and mobile combustion of fuels from activities such as heating and cooking, which account for 97 per cent of emissions in this sector. I think I’ve made the point that if you invest in energy efficiency here, in this sector, you will deal with carbon emissions in a major way as well.

In value for money, the Frontier Economics report compared, interestingly, the net benefits and benefit cost ratios of an energy efficiency scheme of scale with four other major schemes, showing that an energy efficiency programme compares very well to the alternative investments, including Crossrail, HS2 and the roll-out of smart meters. They reckon the benefits of an upscaled programme of energy efficiency in the residential sector would be equivalent to £8.7 billion of societal benefits. And, of course, as we’ve mentioned, it reduces energy bills and helps to combat fuel poverty.

According to YouGov research, rising energy bills are the No. 1 financial concern for householders. Some in this Chamber—a few—would say that that’s the very reason not to invest in this stuff because you’re loading it onto people’s bills. I’ve already dealt with the volatility of oil and gas issues; this is actually protecting consumers. But a DECC paper on fuel poverty from 2012 states that policies that improve the efficiency of the housing stock are more cost-effective and have longer term impacts on tackling fuel poverty than energy price policies or capping or income support policies. Those may be useful—this is the most useful way to do it.

On improving health and well-being, let me turn to the Hills fuel poverty review, which found that low temperatures in homes can create conditions that increase the likelihood of cardiovascular events—some of which may result in death—exacerbate the risk of respiratory disease and cause physical discomfort, which can contribute to mental health issues as well. We know this; we’ve seen it before through hard winters. DECC has undertaken modelling to value the health benefits associated with energy efficiency investments and it concluded that these can be significant across the board.

So, let me turn in my concluding remarks to where we are in Wales. The Government has done so much and I’ll leave the Cabinet Secretary to outline that. I’m not going to do that in my report and I know she’ll do it well and I could have done it as some of my preamble: the investment we’ve put in Arbed and Nest and the Warm Front programme and many other ways. We’re doing so many good things and, in fact, the motion notes that. But if we look at the Wales infrastructure investment plan, which is the plan that informs and co-ordinates investment decisions, it’s intended to maximise the impact of the Welsh Government’s major infrastructure programmes. Back in 2012, the most recent iteration, it states there:

‘Investment to support energy efficiency and the development of new energy sources is…an important part of the strategy.’

And it goes on to say:

‘Energy efficiency through the refurbishment of housing and other estates and the introduction of energy standards for new buildings have an immediate impact on employment since these activities require many work hours. Investment in these areas therefore will have unusually large effects in employing complementary labour.’

There have been sustained calls now from stakeholders—WWF, National Energy Action, Community Housing Cymru, Energy Saving Trust, and many, many more—to make energy efficiency now an explicit infrastructure priority for Wales. We are doing so much, but let’s see it there in the remit of the national infrastructure commission for Wales. The evidence is there. I know the Cabinet Secretary knows it’s there. She will say all the good work that the Welsh Government is doing—and it is—but let’s take it to the next stage. Let’s scale it up and make a difference to people’s lives, to their communities, to their homes, and also deal with all those myriad of other issues that we want to see dealt with.

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

Last week, I hosted and spoke at the launch of the cross-party group on fuel poverty and energy efficiency. I was a member of the energy watch cross-party group during the second Assembly and chaired the cross-party group on fuel poverty during the third and fourth Assembly terms. We worked together to establish the Fuel Poverty Coalition and to launch the fuel poverty charter in 2009, and to secure the Welsh Government’s revised fuel poverty strategy in 2010. Working with Fuel Poverty Coalition members, the new cross-party group will campaign to place fuel poverty at the heart of action to tackle poverty, with strong emphasis on all sectors taking responsibility together. NEA Cymru—National Energy Action—is keen to engage with Assembly Members in their work on fuel poverty and through the new cross-party group on fuel poverty and energy efficiency, and I urge any Members who have not completed their short survey, which has been sent to you by e-mail, to do so.

In 2012, almost 30 per cent of Welsh households were estimated to be in fuel poverty, spending 10 per cent or more of their household income on fuel to maintain heat adequate enough to safeguard comfort and health. Investment in home energy efficiency improvements via Welsh Government and UK Government schemes, combined with changes in household incomes and fuel prices, saw this fall to 23 per cent in 2016. That still represents 291,000 households in Wales, including 43,000 in severe fuel poverty. As the Bevan Foundation and the Joseph Rowntree Foundation told the Assembly’s Communities, Equality and Local Government Committee two years ago, fuel poverty should have a higher profile in the Welsh Government’s tackling poverty action plan because it’s a fundamental human need to have a warm home. There is no realistic prospect of achieving the 2018 target of eradicating fuel poverty in Wales and, as Age Cymru state:

‘many of the mechanisms and measures contained within the 2010 Fuel Poverty Strategy are now out of date or no longer applicable.’

They add that ‘the time is right’ for Welsh Government to refresh its fuel poverty strategy, with a clear programme and timescales, credible evidence base and an ambitious new fuel poverty target rooted in delivery, rather than being a hostage to energy price movements.

As NEA Cymru stated at Wales’s annual fuel poverty conference in March, we drastically need a new fuel poverty strategy, adding that, whilst the Welsh Government’s investment in energy efficiency schemes through its Warm Homes programme is commendable, we need a step change in ambition.

They’ve asked Assembly Members to call on the Welsh Government: to designate domestic energy efficiency as a key national infrastructure priority at the heart of the national infrastructure commission for Wales’s investment priorities; to develop a new long-term strategy for addressing fuel poverty as a matter of urgency; to set a new fuel poverty target; to improve homes to a minimum energy efficiency, backed up with the data needed; to invest in a well-resourced, well-targeted energy efficiency programme for fuel-poor households in Wales; to save lives by implementing the NICE guidelines on tackling excess winter deaths; to fund independent advice services to support people in fuel poverty; and to protect vulnerable households with a crisis fund for emergency heating when their health is at risk.

At last month’s rural north Flintshire community hub launch by the North Wales Energy Advice Centre, we heard that this tackling fuel poverty project, including Flintshire’s affordable warmth crisis fund, should be a model for spreading across communities in rural Wales. NEA deliver projects to assist fuel-poor households in Wales, including a health and innovation programme. In March, with NEA Cymru, I hosted the Assembly launch of Calor’s rural Welsh energy advisorship programme 2016-17 to assist fuel-poor households. The independent, charitable British Gas Energy Trust helps around 25,000 vulnerable households each year, and Centrica, their parent company, has charity partnerships with StepChange Debt Charity—I declare that one of my daughters works for them—CLIC Sargent and Macmillan, and works closely with Action on Hearing Loss, RNIB and Mind. E.ON add value to their energy company obligations support for communities in Wales through locally funded projects, community engagement and job creation schemes.

Well, with almost one in four households in Wales still unable to afford to heat their homes, it’s clear that we need to maintain the political focus on fuel poverty and energy efficiency at this National Assembly. It’s essential that the Welsh Government works with Fuel Poverty Coalition members to place fuel poverty at the heart of action to tackle poverty, engaging with all sectors and so maximising the opportunity presented by working together.

Vikki Howells (Labour, Cynon Valley)

I want to start by thanking the AMs for Ogmore and Neath for tabling this motion today. As the motion succinctly notes, ensuring Welsh homes are energy efficient is vital environmentally. This is in terms of tackling climate change and also reducing consumption, but it is also vital economically, too. If we want to look to a common thread uniting communities across Wales, it is the potential to create jobs and grow the economy based on ensuring that the homes these communities possess are energy efficient. Cambridge Econometrics have suggested that every £1 invested in energy efficiency measures would achieve £3.20 in growth.

Moreover, tackling the fuel poverty that can be both cause and effect of energy inefficiency remains a key challenge for us in terms of tackling social justice. It is this aspect of the motion that I want to focus my remarks on today, expanding on ideas and concepts contained in my short debate last week on poverty in Wales.

The motion notes a Welsh Government commitment of £321 million over nine years to improve energy efficiency and tackle fuel poverty. This is to be welcomed, as the current Cabinet Secretary and previous Ministers have ensured these remain political priorities. Indeed, although the ambition to eliminate fuel poverty by 2018 is unlikely to be met, I am proud to support a Welsh Government that has not shied away from the challenge.

The Warm Homes programme has seen Welsh Government funding go to improve the energy efficiency of over 27,000 homes. Households have been able to heat their homes at a more affordable level and reduce their energy bills. Twenty-five thousand homes will similarly be improved over the next four years. Equally important is the Warm Homes on Prescription pilot, under which Care and Repair have been awarded a £0.25 million grant by the Cabinet Secretary for Communities and Children. This aims to prevent the admissions and readmissions to hospital of older people with poor health caused by extreme cold. Our investment in housing should also be linked to efforts to reduce or eliminate fuel bills. Taken together, these measures have had an impact.

Fuel poverty levels in Wales have declined from an estimated 29 per cent of households in 2012 to 23 per cent in 2016. However, this figure still represents nearly one in every four households in Wales. It starkly illustrates the scale of the challenge to eliminate the problem, and it is just unacceptable that 291,000 households in Wales are unable to afford to adequately heat their homes. Furthermore, as National Energy Action Cymru has identified, 3 per cent of Welsh households are estimated to be in severe fuel poverty. This means that they need to spend at least 20 per cent of their household income on energy to achieve an adequate level of warmth.

The Trussell Trust has recognised the link between use of its food bank networks and fuel poverty. To tackle the problem, it has developed a system of fuel banks, which allows food bank users on pre-payment meters to receive vouchers so that they can keep their heating on for two weeks. Merthyr Cynon Foodbank in my constituency is part of this project.

Fuel poverty can have an impact across all areas of Government, in terms of not just housing or energy, but also health, economic performance and, indeed, education. Children growing up in cold homes have poorer attainment levels than their peers. So, we must take a whole-Government approach to this issue. We must also recognise the context that we do not have access to all of the levers needed to eradicate this problem. For example, the cost of fuel itself, but also initiatives like the winter fuel payment. Perhaps the retention of that is the silver lining in May’s alliance with the DUP. But we must ensure we do all that we can.

NEA Cymru have suggested a range of practical solutions to help meet the challenge: ensuring there is a single-point-of-contact health and housing referral service for people living in cold homes; asking the new public services boards to outline how they intend to address cold homes and fuel poverty in their local well-being plans; and the development of a new long-term strategy for addressing fuel poverty, bringing all threads together. I also support the measures outlined in the motion relating to the national infrastructure commission, and exploring innovative finance models. I commend this motion today.