Senedd Cymru (Welsh Parliament), 20 September 2017

353 contributions from 45 members. The official report.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

I call Members to order.

1. 1. Questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Environment and Rural Affairs

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The first item on our agenda this afternoon is questions to the Cabinet Secretary for the Environment and Rural Affairs. And the first question, Bethan Jenkins.

Bethan Sayed (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

1. Will the Cabinet Secretary provide an update on work to establish an animal abuse register in Wales? (OAQ51033)

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Diolch. The first meeting of the Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals Cymru’s task and finish group to consider the establishment of an animal offender register will take place on 28 September. Interim findings will be submitted to officials before Easter recess, with final findings and recommendations to follow before summer recess 2018.

Bethan Sayed (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

Thank you for that update. You said in your response that it was the RSPCA’s task and finish group. I just wanted to confirm whether you are going to be including other organisations on this task and finish group, and taking evidence from those involved in the area who have been working—with no intention to undermine the RSPCA, but a number of groups have been lobbying for this animal abuse register. Would you include them as part of this discussion?

I see that the Welsh Government is looking into a domestic register. Are you going to discuss these two things together? Because you will recall from previous questions from me, these themes do crosscut and, therefore, I would’ve thought it would’ve been an idea for you to take joint action here, rather than working in separation.

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

No. The Member will be aware—. Obviously, I think you started getting this back on to the agenda with the short debate that you had, and I thought the establishment of such a register was very worthy of further attention. And then RSPCA Cymru produced a briefing document, and they made a case for it also, and they offered to lead on the establishment of a task and finish group. But, you’re quite right: it won’t just be the RSPCA. I have agreed the terms of reference for the group, around the outputs and the timeline. However, the membership hasn’t been agreed. But, you’re absolutely right: it will include other stakeholders and partners. And even on the membership of the group, I’m sure, outside of that membership, we will need to have discussions with other stakeholders and organisations as well.

The point you make around domestic abuse—absolutely. The Cabinet Secretary for Communities and Children and I have already had a meeting around this, and, as the work progresses over the next few months, we will continue to have discussions.

Paul Davies (Conservative, Preseli Pembrokeshire)

Cabinet Secretary, as you know, I’m also a supporter of introducing an animal abuse register, and I look forward to hearing more about its development as it happens. Of course, one of the biggest obstacles facing the register will be determining whether youth offenders will be registered, and perhaps you could tell us what the Welsh Government’s initial position is on this issue. As I’m sure you’ll agree, the register must have a constructive and not a destructive impact on youth offenders, many of whom can be vulnerable young people.

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Absolutely. We haven’t got into that detail on our discussions yet. But, as I say, as we go over the next few months, I’m sure those discussions with Carl Sargeant and myself will increase.

Adam Price (Plaid Cymru, Carmarthen East and Dinefwr)

2. Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on the proposals from Natural Resources Wales to introduce new controls on fishing for salmon and sea trout? (OAQ51045)

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Diolch. It would be inappropriate for me to comment on this matter while Natural Resources Wales is consulting on proposals to introduce new controls on salmon and sea trout fishing. Their consultation closes on 14 November, after which I will consider their recommendations.

Adam Price (Plaid Cymru, Carmarthen East and Dinefwr)

I understand why the Cabinet Secretary doesn’t want to set out clearly her views at this point in time. But I think it’s important to note that a number of fishing clubs—in my constituency, and across Wales—have expressed concerns about these proposals, particularly the proposal to have a complete ban on bait fishing, and the 100 per cent catch-and-return policy, and the impact that that will have on fishing.

Of course, it’s important to bear in mind that this isn’t just a hobby, but it is an important part of our tourism industry in large parts of Wales. Fishermen do have concerns in terms of the decline in salmon and trout numbers, and so on.

But there are far more complex factors at play than simply looking at fishing. So, can I ask that the Cabinet Secretary at least ensures that Natural Resources Wales does listen and take seriously the concerns expressed by the fishermen and their clubs?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Yes, it’s absolutely imperative that they do that. As I say, I don’t want to pre-empt anything, but I’ve certainly had discussions around this in my regular meetings with the chair and chief executive of NRW. Of course, we recognise that salmon and sea trout are very important, iconic species in Welsh rivers, and they of course benefit the Welsh economy. For instance, I think it’s about £100 million per year. So, it is absolutely vital that all views are taken into consideration.

Nick Ramsay (Conservative, Monmouth)

Cabinet Secretary, as you’ve just said, angling is worth around—you took the words out of my mouth—£100 million per year to the Welsh economy. As Adam Price, the Member for Carmarthenshire has said, it’s a very important segment of all parts of Wales, particularly the rural economy. I appreciate that you’re limited in what you can say at the moment, but would you agree that the vast majority of anglers are members of clubs? They pay in the region of a couple of hundred pounds for fishing rights each year depending on the extent of the rights that they have. And whilst I understand NRW’s responsibility to manage fish stocks sustainably—of course you recognise that—would you agree with me that it’s important that the organisation does fully consult with fishing clubs, and doesn’t just consult but also listens to those clubs, because those clubs also have a key interest in the sustainability of fishing stocks themselves, which I think is often overlooked and forgotten? So, will you give me an assurance that NRW will, at the end of this consultation, put in place controls that are right, that do sustain stocks, but that are also fair to anglers and to the Welsh economy?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

You’re absolutely right. In my view, any consultation needs to be meaningful, so it’s very important that NRW listen to all viewpoints. And I know they do accept that this is a very serious issue and that they need to make sure that they work very hard to get the best possible outcome going forward.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Questions now from the party spokespeople. The UKIP spokesperson, Neil Hamilton.

Neil Hamilton (UKIP, Mid and West Wales)

Diolch, Llywydd. The consultation period for the document ‘Taking Forward Wales’ Sustainable Management of Natural Resources’ is supposed to end on the thirtieth of this month. I know that the Cabinet Secretary has had representations from many people to say that this is a vast exercise given the breadth of the consultation that is going on and the number of issues that are often very disparate. She has been very good, I think, as Cabinet Secretary, in her period of office, in consulting and being open to all views that have an interest in all fields under her control. But I’m wondering, in view of the pressure that there has been upon organisations like the National Farmers Union, the Farmers Union of Wales and others to respond to all sorts of other consultations, and everything else which is going on with Brexit and so on, whether she feels that the time period that has been given in this instance is sufficient to get a full breadth of responses to inform whatever decisions that might otherwise be made. Is it possible to consider perhaps extending this consultation period for a little longer?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

I thank the Member for the question. I did extend it, as you say, to 30 September, following representations from the farming unions and other environmental organisations. And, certainly, over the summer recess, when I’ve been attending the agricultural shows and doing visits in both agriculture and environmental settings, it was very clear, particularly over the summer as well, that the document was a large one, and they felt that to make sure they gave views that would be considered, they needed the extension. So, I did extend it to 30 September. I don’t think I’m in a position really to extend it any further, and one of the reasons—and you mentioned Brexit—is probably Brexit. I think it’s really important we get as many views as possible in around regulatory changes, around what legislation we might need, and I need to be ready to go at probably very short notice. We don’t have the luxury of time, so, no, I don’t think I can extend it.

Neil Hamilton (UKIP, Mid and West Wales)

I’m sorry to hear that, but I understand the reasons that the Cabinet Secretary has given. And I know she can’t be drawn on the substance of matters that are subject to this consultation, but there is a question of general principle that I think it would be useful to explore here. One of my constituents has written to me to say, in effect, that what we’re trying to do here is to reconcile conflicting interests, both of which are legitimate very often. And he asked the question: how does one resolve local situations where one important outdoor activity unavoidably interferes with either the environment or with another important activity, even when both are being conducted in a responsible way. This has arisen, in this particular instance, in the context of access to open water and rivers and the conflict that might exist between canoeists and anglers. What he points out is, I think, a very valid point that, instead of having one overarching right that applies everywhere without any exceptions, we need to have some kind of local decision making that respects the specific circumstances of individual instances. He says, quite reasonably, that there are places where 100 canoeists splashing and screaming at each other all day wouldn’t affect angling, but there are other places where the passage of a single canoe, which is discreet, disrupts angling for some time. Therefore, we need to have local decision making so that these individual circumstances can be taken into account.

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Absolutely, and that’s something that I think we’ve been holding workshops on over the summer period and that’s certainly something that’s been raised with me. We need to collectively identify the best approach forward. So, we can certainly look at that when we have the consultation responses in and they’re being assessed.

Neil Hamilton (UKIP, Mid and West Wales)

Another important feature of this also respects the rights of landowners and farmers. Obviously, it’s in the interests of those who want to see the countryside prosper that we have access as widely as possible, and the more people who get to understand the ways of the countryside, the better it is for all those who live and work in rural communities. But extending the right to, for example, cycle on footpaths, in the same way as currently happens on bridleways, offers new challenges about the riparian land, and similarly the right to camp in open spaces as well, and how one gets there in the first place. So, I hope that the Cabinet Secretary will try to balance the interests here very carefully indeed because farming is under pressure in many ways.

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

I think that the pertinent word there is ‘balance’. You’re absolutely right. You mentioned canoeists and anglers, and you mentioned cycling being allowed on bridlepaths. I have to say that, in some of the discussions I’ve had over the summer, they want to see a multi-use for these paths: they want to see footpaths, cyclists and horse-riding all on the same path; others don’t want to. So, I think you’re right: it is about a balance.

I’ve had representations around camping. You’re quite right: some farmers—I went to a farm up in the Snowdonia national park over the summer, where one farmer said, ‘There are 500,000 people visiting this park per year; I want to see as many people as I can on here’. Other famers don’t feel that way inclined. It’s absolutely about getting the balance right. So, certainly when the consultation closes on 30 September, we’ll be able to review the thousands, I think, of responses—I know it’s well up in the thousands now—that we will receive.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Llefarydd Plaid Cymru, Simon Thomas.

Simon Thomas (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

Diolch, Llywydd. I hope the Cabinet Secretary did get a little break over the summer and, if she did, that she had some time on a beach. If she did, then she would have noticed the plastic that we have on our beaches these days. I think she had the chance, as I did, to meet the eXXpedition female sailing crew, who were sailing around the UK over the summer—or around Britain actually, not the UK, as sailing around the UK is quite difficult—sailing around Britain over the summer. They came to Cardiff and were highlighting plastic in our seas as well. If she did meet them, she will know that they were strongly in support of a deposit-return scheme. She’ll also know that the Scottish Government announced in August that they were interested in a deposit-return scheme for Scotland, and Zero Waste Scotland, for example, estimates that, in the Scottish circumstances, just on litter clearance alone, a deposit-return scheme could save between £3 million and £6 million. So, does the Cabinet Secretary now agree with me that it’s time to introduce, at the very least, a pilot deposit-return scheme here in Wales?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Unfortunately, I didn’t have the opportunity to meet the crew. I forget what happened—I think I was in another part of Wales, so I didn’t have the opportunity to meet them, but I was aware that Simon had met them. I’m sure that Simon Thomas is also aware that I spent the day with Roseanna Cunningham, the Cabinet Secretary for Environment, Climate Change and Land Reform from Scotland. She came down to Cardiff, mainly to see about our recycling, to see what she could learn from us. We did have a discussion around the DRS.

I’ve commissioned a study around a package or suite of things that I think we can do to reduce waste in packaging. I’m very keen, as you know, to get our recycling rates up. We’re now third in the world. I want to be first in the world. So, it was very helpful to hear what Scotland are doing and, as I say, I’ve commissioned this study, and once that’s been reported to me, we can decide on which aspects of it we do.

Simon Thomas (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

I thank the Cabinet Secretary for her consideration. I also met with Roseanna Cunningham when she was visiting Cardiff. I have to say, though, I very much, of course, support our sister party, the Scottish National Party. I don’t want them to steal a march on us here in Wales. I want us to be the first to do things like deposit return schemes and alternative ways of tackling plastic pollution. She’s right, of course, that we do very well on recycling, but the only countries that do better than us do have a deposit return scheme, I have to say. So, let’s examine one other aspect of this, because the UK Government Office for Science published an evidence review, ‘Future of the Sea: Plastic Pollution’ in July. This found that 70 per cent of all the litter in our oceans is of plastic of different kinds. We also had a report only last week that 83 per cent of tap water surveyed all around the world has been found to contain plastic fibres. So, I do think there are small policy interventions, and small nations can make those policy interventions that really change the way that we view the use of plastic, recycling of plastic and the reuse of plastic.

As well as a deposit return scheme, the Welsh Government has discussed the possibility of novel taxes here in Wales, with the new powers, and I certainly got the impression from the Cabinet Secretary before the summer—the Cabinet Secretary for finance, that is—that he was interested in how such small taxes could change behaviour and perhaps be used in an environmental way. Is this something that she is discussing with the Cabinet Secretary for finance, and particularly with a view to taxing or, in some way, levying this wasteful use of plastic?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

‘Yes’ is the short answer. I think I’m meeting the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Local Government next week, but I’m not quite sure if that’s on the agenda. But certainly, it is something that we have started to discuss. I’m very committed to reducing marine litter, and you may be aware that stakeholders have formed a marine litter task and finish group to tackle the issue of marine litter in Wales. I met with the group in Saundersfoot over the summer recess. Saundersfoot have got a brilliant scheme where they have—I forget what you call them—sort of A boards, where people can go along, take out a pair of gloves, take out a bag and can go and get litter off our beaches et cetera, which I thought was brilliant. So, I think there’s lots of good practice out there. It’s just about sharing it. I’ll be very interested to see what the task and finish group recommendations are.

Simon Thomas (Plaid Cymru, Mid and West Wales)

I thank the Minister for that. I’ll certainly continue to urge her and the Welsh Government to introduce a deposit return scheme here in Wales. But to turn to another item of unfinished business over the summer, she’ll remember coming before the Climate Change, Environment and Rural Affairs Committee on 20 July. She was asked there around the community energy and non-domestic rates effect on hydro schemes in particular. In her reply to the committee on 7 September, she says that hydropower schemes have been disproportionately affected by the non-domestic rates revaluation. So, I’m pleased that she accepts that. She also says that she is now working and committed to finding a solution on the impact of non-domestic rates revaluation. The suggestion is that somehow the solution is to wait for a revaluation and a re-working of non-domestic rates that might happen in 2018 rather than deal with the problem that her own Government’s policies have given rise to now. Can she please give a commitment that the difficulty with hydropower schemes, which she now acknowledges, will be solved quicker than that, and that she will work with haste and speed with the Cabinet Secretary for finance to ensure that they’re not unreasonably penalised by changing business rates?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

I can’t remember if I met with the British Hydropower Association before I came to committee or after, but it was certainly around that time. Again, I have shared correspondence with the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Local Government, as has the association itself. So, I think, if I could, I will write to the Member with an update.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Conservatives’ spokesperson, Paul Davies.

Paul Davies (Conservative, Preseli Pembrokeshire)

Diolch, Llywydd. Cabinet Secretary, over the summer, the third annual implementation plan was published under the Wales animal health and welfare framework, and in your foreword, you state that the year ahead promises to be a challenging one, and I think that’s something that we can all certainly agree on. Now, that report highlighted that there is now scope to consider the option of banning the use of wild animals in circuses. Can you tell us why the Welsh Government has not already introduced a ban here in Wales?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

We don’t have any circuses licensed in Wales. I have had at least two meetings with Lord Gardiner, the Minister with responsibility in the UK Government. We decided that we would work very closely with them around the possibility of having a joint ban. I last met with Lord Gardiner out in Brussels at an agricultural council, and I am due to have an update, I think, next month.

Paul Davies (Conservative, Preseli Pembrokeshire)

Well, I think it’s a real shame that, whilst Wales is advocating a ‘let’s wait for Westminster’ approach, the Scottish Government, for example, have got on with the job and already introduced a Bill, which is working its way through their legislative process.

Now, another priority highlighted in the implementation plan is in relation to welfare of animals at the time of slaughter. Following on from the UK Government’s announcement on CCTV installed in all English slaughterhouses, can you tell us what the Welsh Government is doing to ensure that a high standard of welfare for animals is kept in Wales, including at the point of slaughter, and will you now commit to seeing CCTV installed at all slaughterhouses here in Wales?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Just in relation to your first question, it’s not a matter of ‘wait and see about the UK Government’. You’ll appreciate the legislative—[Interruption.] You will appreciate that the legislative programme here is very busy, for want of a better word. I am having to make sure that I have legislation being looked at ready for post-Brexit. I thought that was the best way forward, particularly because we don’t have any circuses licensed in Wales.

In relation to your question around CCTV in slaughterhouses, there’s an incredible amount of work going on with that. You will be aware that when I came into post, my predecessor, Rebecca Evans, had had a report undertaken by an industry-led task and finish group around implementation of CCTV. Just two weeks ago, I was looking at how many CCTV cameras were installed in slaughterhouses in Wales. I have to say that the vast majority of the large slaughterhouses in Wales do have them. You will be aware that vets are present in every slaughterhouse to ensure compliance with regulations. They have the power to seize CCTV footage if they expect welfare standards are not being met. So, I think that is one reason to look at having CCTV cameras in our slaughterhouses. I’ve got a piece of work coming to me by the end of this month to look at whether we then make that mandatory or not.

Paul Davies (Conservative, Preseli Pembrokeshire)

Well, Cabinet Secretary, I have asked you, obviously, two specific questions now, and it seems to me that the Welsh Government is dithering on both. There is a perception, therefore, that the Welsh Government talks big on animal welfare issues but delivers very little. For example, when do you intend to review the effectiveness of the Animal Welfare (Breeding of Dogs) (Wales) Regulations 2014? When will you address the issue of the breeding, trade and keeping of exotic pets in Wales? Therefore, when will we start seeing specific action to deliver better animal welfare across Wales, including some concrete timescales on these policies?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

I don’t think it’s a matter of dithering; I think it’s a matter of getting things right. You also have to realise the cost of these things. Maybe if we’d had a bit more money from your UK Tory Government, maybe we’d be able to do everything. But, the budget isn’t in—[Interruption.] You will appreciate these things. So, for instance, the cost of putting CCTV in every slaughterhouse runs into hundreds of thousands of pounds. So, you need to make sure—[Interruption.] And all the other things that you suggest. I don’t think you can say that we dither around animal health and welfare standards in Wales.

Neil McEvoy (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

3. Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on the need for environmental impact assessments? (OAQ51026)

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

‘Environmental impact assessment’ refers to a formal process set out in regulations for assessing, consulting and coming to a decision on specific projects required by the Environmental impact assessment directive. Where EIA is not required, the environmental effects of proposals are considered by various consent regimes before development commences.

Neil McEvoy (Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central)

How can you call yourself the Cabinet Secretary for the environment when your Government has issued a licence to let material be dredged from outside Hinkley Point nuclear reactor and be dumped in Welsh waters just outside Cardiff? What’s worse is that an environmental impact assessment was not carried out by Wales’s environmental watchdog. No dose of radiation is acceptable for human health. So, it beggars belief that you would allow material from a nuclear—nuclear—site to be dumped in Welsh waters. So, why are you taking this huge risk? And will you now revoke the licence until a full and proper study of the potentially radioactive material has been carried out by Natural Resources Wales?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

I’m unable to comment on a specific determination process that was carried out some years ago, but I can assure you that all marine licence applications are considered in line with legal requirements, which are set out in Part 4 of the Marine and Coastal Access Act 2009 and the Marine Works (Environmental Impact Assessment) Regulations 2007. The regulations provide procedures to determine the need for an EIA on the project, and I understand a valid marine licence is in place, and there are conditions that need to be complied with by the licence holder before any disposal can take place.

Jenny Rathbone (Labour, Cardiff Central)

Looking at the environmental impact assessment of the combustion engine, both diesel and petrol, I wonder what environmental impact assessment has been done on the air quality in school playgrounds, because I had a visit today from St Teilo’s Church in Wales High School, where I’m also a governor, and that is one of the schools identified by ClientEarth as one of 1,000 schools across the UK that is suffering from really damaging levels of air pollution because of their proximity to roads. I just wondered how many of these nearly 1,000 schools are in Wales.

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

I can’t give you a specific answer on the number, but we do know that Welsh schoolchildren can be exposed to high levels of pollution when they’re travelling to and from schools, just as much as when they’re on the school grounds. The Member will be aware that we have begun to engage with a wide range of stakeholders to help shape work around the clean air zone framework for Wales, and that’s also being done through one of the sub-groups on my ministerial Brexit roundtable.

Suzy Davies (Conservative, South Wales West)

Swansea council states that the natural assets of the area of outstanding natural beauty provide an opportunity for economic growth and that they are important for well-being, and such benefits must not be compromised by new development that fails to safeguard or enhance the natural asset and ecosystem of the AONB. Can you tell me why the AONB isn’t a statutory consultee with an obligation to provide evidence in planning applications for land that’s directly adjacent to AONB land? This has become a material question, now, for my constituents in Gower, where the LDP anticipates the construction of 20,000 houses. Thank you.

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

It’s really important that any decision makers around any organisation take decisions in the full knowledge of the environmental impacts, but I will certainly be very happy to look into this and write to the Member.

Dawn Bowden (Labour, Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney)

4. Will the Cabinet Secretary provide an update on the action being taken to monitor the progress made in cases of defective cavity wall insulation work in Wales? (OAQ51019)

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Thank you. Further to my written statement of 13 June, I expect to make changes to competent person scheme requirements to help ensure insulation is not installed to unsuitable properties from 1 October 2017. For existing installations, officials will be meeting with the main guarantee provider, the Cavity Insulation Guarantee Agency, to discuss progress in resolving outstanding claims.

Dawn Bowden (Labour, Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney)

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. It is clear to me that there does remain a significant number of people, many of whom are elderly and vulnerable, as you will know, who continue to face financial costs, due to the inappropriate or defective cavity wall schemes. Indeed, I’m grateful to a number of Assembly colleagues who have shared similar experiences from their constituencies with me. In recent weeks, I’ve met with more of my constituents who are facing just these problems. I welcome the update from your written statement in June, but can I ask: what is the latest position with the new pilot process under Arbed, which requires local authorities to procure independent, whole-house surveys of properties before potential schemes are evaluated and awarded funding? And do you agree that this problem requires our ongoing attention, so that we can prevent similar problems in the future, but also, and perhaps more importantly, to secure justice and recompense for those who have suffered so far?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

It certainly has my ongoing attention. I think I receive at least one piece of correspondence a week on this issue. The Member will be aware that almost all cavity wall insulations are undertaken by installers under the building regulation competent person self-certification schemes. As I’ve said, I’ll be in a position, I hope, to make that announcement from 1 October. I know that there are similar schemes being brought in by the UK Government’s ECO scheme. In terms of Arbed, we’ve just issued outcome letters to local authorities following consideration of the independent property surveys that had already been submitted. That does then enable successful local authorities to proceed to costing and designing schemes. I think that will further strengthen the quality of those schemes and further minimise problems from occurring in the future. But you’re absolutely right—we want to prevent future problems, but we do know we have some problems that we still need to ensure get justice.

David Melding (Conservative, South Wales Central)

In 2015, the Building Research Establishment said that we did need more data on this in Wales. We need a national study to see the extent of the problem. I think the issue here is the current properties that have undergone this, and it’s been defective. Because it’s at the heart of much of our refurbishment strategy, energy reduction, Warm Homes—it is really, really important that we get to know the scale of this challenge and put it right as soon as possible, and obviously ensure that those that are responsible meet their obligations.

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Yes, I absolutely agree with the Member, and you will have heard me say in my initial answer to Dawn Bowden that my officials are due to meet again with CIGA. Those meetings are ongoing. They’ve obviously previously met them, and I think CIGA do obviously recognise the problems that are facing many of the customers that they’ve been dealing with. They’ve already taken action in a number of areas, such as the establishment of a consumer champion, for instance. They’ve developed a property care pack for householders. But I do want to assure Members that this is something that we are working very quickly on to remedy.

Adam Price (Plaid Cymru, Carmarthen East and Dinefwr)

Of course, the Cabinet Secretary will share our opposition to the concept that the Government in London, as their Secretary of State has said already, are going to take all of the powers for agricultural payments. But would the Cabinet Secretary, in order to ensure that we do have the widest support possible in Wales to protect devolution in terms of powers, over agricultural payments, make a pledge that if those powers were to come to us that there wouldn’t be less funding provided to agricultural subsidies?

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

I think the Member perhaps has mistaken the question for another. This question is on deficient insulation, rather than agricultural payments.

Adam Price (Plaid Cymru, Carmarthen East and Dinefwr)

I apologise.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

So, the Minister doesn’t need to answer that question on agricultural payments, unless she can make some very creative link with cavity wall insulation. [Laughter.]

Question 5, therefore—Gareth Bennett.

Gareth Bennett (UKIP, South Wales Central)

Diolch, Llywydd. It’s on agricultural payments, actually.

Gareth Bennett (UKIP, South Wales Central)

5. Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on the Welsh Government’s plans for common agricultural policy payments post-Brexit? (OAQ51036)

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Thank you. I’m extremely concerned the UK Government has yet to commit funding for agricultural support beyond 2022, which was promised by George Eustice before the referendum. Meanwhile, we are working with other administrations to ensure that day 1 readiness preparations will be in place, enabling payments to continue to be made.

Gareth Bennett (UKIP, South Wales Central)

Yes, thank you for that answer. Clearly, I understand that there is some uncertainty regarding the future, but you sound reasonably convinced that some speedy and effective form of payments can be made if the responsibility does eventually devolve to here. Would you agree with that?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

I think uncertainty for the future is probably one of the biggest understatements I’ve heard this year. At the moment, there’s a black hole after 2022. We don’t know what funding we are going to receive from the UK Government. They haven’t been very clear about that. They did promise before the EU referendum that we would receive every penny that we are having currently, so we are holding them to that. You will be very aware that I work very closely with my three other counterparts across the UK. We’ve got our next quadrilateral meeting on Monday, in London. It will be the first one that Michael Gove has attended since his appointment back in June. So, these are all issues that, obviously, are ongoing, but I’ve made it very clear that I cannot see a time when we’ll be in a position not to support our farming industry, so we need to make sure that the Tory Government hold very firm in their promises to us.

Mark Reckless (Conservative, South Wales East)

When I last questioned the Cabinet Secretary on this, the UK Government had guaranteed payments to 2020. They’ve now guaranteed them until at least 2022. So, I hope that she will welcome that. And also, when she has discussions with the UK Government around the complex area of how devolution works post Brexit and what areas of agriculture should be determined here and what the UK framework that should be agreed is and what the international trade policy that should be for the UK Government is, will she, in those discussions at all times, bear in mind that the absolute priority for farmers in Wales, who aren’t so concerned, perhaps, about where power lies, is that that money continues to flow?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

I wouldn’t say that farmers aren’t that concerned where powers lie. I think certainly the farmers who I’ve engaged with and the farming unions absolutely recognise that the agricultural powers belong to the people of Wales and they don’t want to see any power grab by the UK Government. You’re quite right—. I think probably—well, it was before the election that was called in June of this year, we were given assurance to 2020 and then following the election, the Treasury gave assurance to fully fund direct payments until 2022. Of course, that’s welcome, but we need far more detail around that.

So, I’ve always been very clear that we will have a Welsh agricultural policy post Brexit. However, we do accept that, in some areas, there will be UK frameworks. I’m very keen to start those conversations about the UK frameworks. Unfortunately, because we haven’t had any engagement with the UK Government for such a long time at a ministerial level, we’ve not been able to process those conversations. But certainly, on Monday, I will be raising UK frameworks in that quadrilateral meeting.

Mohammad Asghar (Conservative, South Wales East)

6. What measures will the Cabinet Secretary take to support Welsh farmers in the next 12 months? (OAQ51001)

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Thank you. I want to see a more efficient, profitable and sustainable agricultural sector in Wales. I am supporting our farmers to achieve this through innovative use of funding available, including the sustainable production grant, the farm business grant, the strategic initiative for agriculture, as well as through Farming Connect.

Mohammad Asghar (Conservative, South Wales East)

Thank you for the long answer, Minister. One measure that would certainly not support Welsh farmers would be the Welsh Government’s proposal to designate further areas of Wales as nitrate vulnerable zones. A recent survey by NFU Cymru found that nearly three quarters of farmers who responded did not have sufficient slurry storage on their farms to meet the proposed NVZ requirements and it would cost on average some £80,000 for them to do so. Will the Cabinet Secretary call a halt to these proposals, which could have a ruinous and a financially very negative effect on our farming industry in Wales?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Well, I can’t call a halt to the NVZ review because that’s a statutory requirement under the nitrates directive, so I think it needs to be viewed within that. You’ll be aware that we had a consultation on NVZ. That closed at the end of December. We received a large number of responses—I think it was over 250—many, many more than the previous time we’ve had to review it. I’m very keen to work with the farming unions and the farmers and the sector as a whole to develop solutions, and, of course, I do understand there would be a cost. However, I don’t want to pre-empt the consultation, but I will be making an announcement by the end of this year.

Russell George (Conservative, Montgomeryshire)

7. Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on the Farming Connect business advice grant? (OAQ51024)

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

There is no specific Farming Connect business advice grant. However, our Farming Connect service provides a wide range of valuable support services focused on driving modernisation, increased prosperity and resilience. As we head towards Brexit and the considerable challenges this will present to farming and forestry, Farming Connect becomes an ever more important resource this Government makes available to our farmers and foresters.

Russell George (Conservative, Montgomeryshire)

Cabinet Secretary, I’ve been contacted by a constituent with concerns about the administration fees charged by consultants to conduct work under the Farming Connect business advice grant—or, if I’m incorrect, as you stated—. It seems to be that, in some cases, consultants are taking up to 20 per cent of the total grant in administration fees. Are you prepared to have a look at this and investigate it and potentially put a cap on administration fees so that as much of the funding reaches the front line and reaches the farmer as possible, rather than lining consultants’ pockets? I’d be interested to hear if this issue has been raised with you previously and I’d be happy to provide you with some examples.

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

I think it would be better if the Member could write to me because, as I say, there isn’t a grant that you asked me about in your original question. Farming Connect tends to signpost farmers and foresters to different schemes and grants. So, I’m really unclear as to which grant you’re referring to. So, yes, I think it would be really helpful if the Member could write to me and then, obviously, I can respond.

Llyr Gruffydd (Plaid Cymru, North Wales)

8. Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on floods on agricultural land? (OAQ51031)[W]

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Thank you. My recently published natural resources policy outlines the opportunities to manage flooding by using natural flood risk management techniques in both our upland and lowland areas. In the uplands, this means taking measures to increase water storage by reducing run-off and soil sealing, and in the lowlands, slowing flow through more natural floodplains.

Llyr Gruffydd (Plaid Cymru, North Wales)

Thank you for that response. I did raise this with one of your predecessors three years ago: the need to do more to empower landowners, farmers, environmental groups and so on to be responsible, within specific parameters, of course, for clearing river banks themselves, for example—that they should have the powers to do that within specific circumstances. I referred at that point to a pilot scheme that the Environment Agency in England was running, and the Minister at the time agreed that he would be happy to introduce a similar pilot scheme in Wales. Can you tell us whether that pilot scheme has been put in place, and can you also explain why we are still seeing increasing examples of complaints about agricultural land finding itself under water for large parts of the year?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

I’m not aware of that pilot scheme, but if it was three years ago, that doesn’t mean it’s been rolled out, if you like. But, certainly, I’m happy to look into that and write to the Member.

Darren Millar (Conservative, Clwyd West)

I too have been contacted by constituents who are very concerned about the reduced maintenance regime that’s being undertaken by Natural Resources Wales in parts of north Wales and, as a result of that reduced maintenance scheme, ditches, because they’re not being cleared, are beginning to flood-water on to agricultural land—what has been very productive agricultural land. What action are you taking to ensure that Natural Resources Wales does target its maintenance appropriately so that farmers aren’t losing out because of a lack of maintenance in their areas?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

I think you raise a very important point. It’s not one that has been raised with me as a concern but I’d be very happy to discuss it at my next meeting with the NRW chair and chief executive, which I think is next week or the week after.

Darren Millar (Conservative, Clwyd West)

9. What action is the Welsh Government taking to improve the sea defences at Old Colwyn? (OAQ51007)

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Thank you. The Welsh Government is working closely with Conwy council on coast protection. We have supported appraisal work covering the whole Colwyn Bay waterfront and to date we’ve funded £26 million of improvements there. We are in discussion with the council on their plans for further work at Colwyn Bay.

Darren Millar (Conservative, Clwyd West)

I’m very grateful for the investment that has gone into Colwyn Bay over the years in terms of affording that particular part of the coastline with greater levels of flood protection, but we’ve seen the damage that flooding from the sea can do when we look over the Atlantic as a result of those terrible storms that have wreaked havoc in the Caribbean and in the United States of America, and I don’t want a similar situation to happen here in north Wales, in Old Colwyn. You know that the waterfront there has flood defences that protect vital parts of the north Wales transport infrastructure. They’ve gone unattended to for far too long. There have been patchwork repairs that have been done over the years and we need some action in order to bring them up to scratch. What confidence do you have that we will see a plan and that we will see some work started on significant improvements on the Old Colwyn promenade within the next two years?

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Well, I think the Member questioned me on this probably at the end of last year and I think I told you then what I’m going to tell you now: we’re still waiting for Conwy council to come up with a proposal that identifies a partnership approach that they want to Old Colwyn and, indeed, to Colwyn Bay. I do know the council are having a meeting, I think next month, with partners such as Network Rail, because you mentioned the transport infrastructure alongside the A55, I think the trunk road agency and also, obviously, Welsh Government officials. So, I know they’ve been asked to prepare a report for me following that meeting.

Joyce Watson (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

10. Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on pollution in Welsh rivers? (OAQ51035)

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Thank you. The river basin management plans, published in 2015, include detailed assessments of all Welsh water bodies and measures to improve water quality. There have been a number of significant agricultural pollution incidents in the past year, causing substantial damage, and I’ve made it clear these incidents are unacceptable.

Joyce Watson (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

I agree that they are unacceptable and there have been between 70 and 118 incidents of slurry pollution entering Welsh rivers annually, which makes it more than one a week. And I do appreciate that most farmers will comply with the law, but the stats suggest that some are clearly falling outside of that. A recent investigation by the Bureau of Investigative Journalism has suggested that some farms do see the fines that they incur as a result of polluting as part of the running cost of their business. If there’s any truth whatsoever in that, then those fines are clearly not working as a deterrent. And the other thing that was found through that study was that there was a persistent problem within some farms in Carmarthenshire. So, Cabinet Secretary, what I want to ask is: what action is the Welsh Government taking to ensure that the non-compliance by reoffending farms is thoroughly investigated? And I do understand quite clearly that it is Natural Resources Wales who will do that. And the other thing that was found by that investigative journalism is that some of the NRW staff are being threatened and not welcomed—in fact, quite the opposite—when doing their jobs on those farms.

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Thank you, and as you pointed out, Joyce Watson, whilst I said there have been a number of significant agricultural pollution incidents, they can be attributed to a very small percentage of agricultural holdings. Continual reoffending is not acceptable and fines should, of course, act as a deterrent rather than be seen as a running cost. And I think, in some cases, fines are simply not appropriate, and requiring farmers to remedy the damage that they’ve caused, I think, is often seen as a more acceptable way of limiting reoffending. Such matters are being taken forward by the land management sub-group on diffuse pollution. I’m also seeking views, you’ll be aware, through the sustainable management consultation of our natural resources. I’ve not been made aware of any NRW staff being threatened, but, again, it’s something I’m very happy to raise with NRW at my regular monthly meetings.

Angela Burns (Conservative, Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire)

I’m very glad that Joyce Watson asked that question because you and I have discussed this issue on a number of occasions. I wonder if, Minister or Cabinet Secretary, you would look at how we might improve the planning application process, in particular for super farms, to ensure that drainage and adequate slurry storage is really taken into account, because when a farm grows from 600 or 700 head of cattle to 2,000 to 2,500, the blight on the neighbouring farms is utterly unbearable. The pollution that runs into gardens, the pollution into rivers, the pollution not just, of course, from contamination of the water courses, but the pollution from the birds that flock to the grain and all the rest of it. And a super farm, if it’s well run, is an extraordinarily wonderful thing to behold. A super farm badly run is utter, utter misery for the people around it, and I really think that the Welsh Government need to toughen up on the planning. It’s a subject I’ve raised with you before and with your colleague next door to you, because I think the time is to act because there are more and more of them happening.

Lesley Griffiths (Labour, Wrexham)

Yes, and certainly in our discussions I’ve made you aware that I’m very happy to look at planning policy to make sure, as you say, they are very well run, because there can be nothing worse than having the sort of pollution to which you allude.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary.

2. 2. Questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Communities and Children

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The next item is questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Communities and Children, and the first question is from Suzy Davies.

Suzy Davies (Conservative, South Wales West)

1. Will the Cabinet Secretary provide an update on progress for supporting communities in Wales once Communities First has come to an end? (OAQ51003)

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I thank the Member for her question. My officials have been supporting lead delivery bodies to deliver their transition plans for this year. A number of mitigation measures have been established to support arrangements going forward. Local authorities are engaging with partners to ensure future delivery reflects local needs.

Suzy Davies (Conservative, South Wales West)

Thank you for that answer. It sounds like work is still ongoing. I have to say, you told me shortly before recess, in a question on representations made to me on behalf of Faith in Families in Swansea West, that Swansea’s local Communities First delivery board had, and I quote, ‘detailed transition plans to make sure that locally supported projects didn’t lose out.’ I’ve now been contacted about Clase family centre in Swansea East, where Faith in Families also run services, but this time it’s by constituents themselves, and they’re very anxious because they still don’t know what the funding picture’s going to look like after March 2018. Now, six months isn’t long. Have you had any indication from all councils when those detailed transition plans will be announced?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

Well, I’m really surprised by the Member’s question in terms of the detail around Faith in Families. I know that Faith in Families are running a significant media campaign around this transition period. In broad principle, the transition is going really well and we haven’t got any red-flag areas in terms of the transition process going forward. Faith in Families have been running the media campaign, as I said. However, as set out in Swansea’s local delivery board’s detailed transition plan, Faith in Families are receiving 100 per cent of their Communities First funding up to 31 March 2018—approximately £260,000. If the Member has specific questions around a particular organisation, I’d be more than happy for myself or one of my team to meet with her to clarify those issues.

Siân Gwenllian (Plaid Cymru, Arfon)

From what I understand, the emphasis of the counter-poverty work that used to be carried out by Communities First will be on early years education, helping people into work and empowering communities—those will be the focuses now—which is what you refer to as the three Es: early years, employability and empowerment. I would like to understand, and I think the people in the sector also want to understand what exactly ‘empowerment’ means. What’s your interpretation of that? Importantly, how will you measure the success of this ‘empowerment’ element in attempts to reduce poverty in Wales?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

Well, empowerment is certainly about local people having an involvement in the decision-making processes as we move forward, and that’s why public services boards and the future generations Act have a very close link to engagement with all communities and individuals that they have a stake in, moving forward. I think the whole principle of the three Es is an exciting one for communities. What we did realise is that Communities First hasn’t worked as well as it was designed to do in terms of lifting communities out of poverty. I think it’s done a great job of stopping communities getting poorer, but we have to have a game changer here, and the new programmes that we have in place and the support mechanisms around that, I believe, will be the experience that local communities will want to achieve, going forward.

Russell George (Conservative, Montgomeryshire)

2. What discussions has the Cabinet Secretary had with housing associations in an effort to tackle anti-social behaviour? (OAQ51023)

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

In July 2016, I set up a Welsh Government and Police and Crime Commissioner for South Wales group, chaired by the south Wales police and crime commissioner. This group is working with housing associations across Wales to improve the approach taken to addressing anti-social behaviour.

Russell George (Conservative, Montgomeryshire)

Thank you, Minister. I’m pleased to hear that. I’ve certainly had a constituent who is exasperated at the drug-related and anti-social behaviour that’s going on that she and her young family have to witness on a regular basis. The social housing development she lives on is a mixed housing estate with single-person flats. She’s unfortunately in regular contact with the police and the local housing association. I’ve had similar cases raised with me in this regard also. I’ve heard what you’ve said, but I’d be grateful if you could give an update on those discussions and let me know what Welsh Government can do to compel social landlords to take responsibility in this regard.

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

Well, social landlords do take a responsibility in this field. I recognise the devastating impact that anti-social behaviour can have on individuals and communities across all of Wales. What I would say is this is a complex area that needs a multi-agency approach to deal with support for the communities, but also for the individuals causing anti-social behaviour, and we have had a strong track record on delivering on robust policies. I would ask the Member also, though, to consider his position in this, in supporting Welsh Government in asking the UK Government to increase the funding level and support for police officers across the whole length and breadth of the UK, including here in Wales and in his own constituency.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Questions now from the party spokespeople. Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Bethan Jenkins.

Bethan Sayed (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

Thank you. My first question is with regard to Grenfell and I’ve asked many questions on it here in the Chamber, and you have, to be fair, sent us regular updates as requested over the summer about what you are doing in relation to Grenfell on a Wales level. On 25 August, it emerged that some private high-rise apartment buildings in Cardiff, such as those at Prospect Place, had failed cladding safety tests. You did send us that information, but I was wondering whether you could provide us with further updates on the private sector in particular, because you did tell Assembly Members before recess that it was not only you as Cabinet Secretary who was looking at this in relation to private flats, but that your Cabinet Secretary for the economy would be talking to hotels and such also. So, I’m confident that we can have a grasp of the housing within the Welsh Government’s parameters, but I want to be assured that in relation to new flats—because they’re being built all the time—and the ones that have been flagged as problematic, you are able to give us a further update here today.

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I’m grateful for the Member’s question. I did, as the Member suggested, issue statements right the way through the summer when we were updated in discussions with the UK Government. I was on a multi-agency conference call with the UK yesterday on the issue, following up on actions following on from Grenfell. In Wales—I can’t find the number in my briefing, but I will write to Members wholesale in terms of identification of private buildings over seven storeys with aluminium composite material products. I think it’s seven, but I will clarify that for the Member. All local authorities have been working very well with their local agencies, so that’s private landlords, hotels, et cetera, to see where ACM may be present. The same principle applies. We are working with the private sector to make sure residents are fully informed, residents feel as safe as they possibly can, and the fire service is giving support in that mechanism as well. So, this is a difficult time, but we believe, as all of the UK—Scottish colleagues I talked to yesterday as well. We have a similar action point, taking this forward.

Bethan Sayed (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

And on the same theme, in response to a short debate by Dawn Bowden in May in relation to electrical safety—obviously, this is pertinent here because a washing machine was involved in the situation involving the fire at Grenfell—you said that you would be commissioning research in Wales into fires caused by electricity. I want to know what’s happening with that research and who you will be engaging with it. When will that be updated to AMs? Because I know from a letter that I’ve seen to Electrical Safety First, from you on 27 July, that you said that you will, and I quote, ‘be in touch should their advice be necessary.’ I would have thought it would be integral, would it not, to get advice from an organisation like that, that specialises in electrical safety. I would urge you now, here today, Cabinet Secretary, to meet with them to hear their concerns, because they are very proactive in this field, and to come up with that piece of research that Dawn Bowden and others have called for.

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I would just caution the Member, first of all, on her—. She’s correct in saying that there was an electrical device in the flat that was in Grenfell, but there is a full inquiry going on there and we have to ensure that we have all the details of that. I think the building was also compromised in other ways, but that will become clear through the inquiry. With regard to the letter that the Member raises with me, I have letters from experts in all sorts of fields every day. What is really important is that we have a co-ordinated approach, and that’s why, working with the UK, Scotland and Wales on these very issues, we are getting feedback on whether the electrical testing facilities that we have in place are adequate for the requirements that we are needing for evidencing whether that’s true. What I will do is, as I said to you earlier on, continue to update Members, in particular around electrical safety, and I will send the letter to all Members in the near future.

Bethan Sayed (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

Thank you. Well, I would hope that if you get letters from experts, you use their expertise. I think that all I’m trying to say is that, obviously, they have that expertise to offer, and they do have an open door towards speaking to you.

I wanted to move on to housing. I’ve been talking about social housing quite a lot recently. I wanted to ask a question in relation to updating homes that are currently in private hands, but are going into disrepair. It’s something that we could be utilising much more to increase our stock on a local level. I know that you have the Houses into Homes scheme, loans for people to update their properties, and that local councils have empty dwelling management orders in relation to taking those properties in in a cohesive way. I’m wondering if you could give us an update on those particular schemes, and tell us how many private homes have, therefore, been taken over in this way or updated from the loan structures, so that we can add to the stock that we need here in Wales to build those homes, and to try and take away from some of the eyesores on our streets, which are animating people’s everyday lives, because they see them in disrepair, every day, and we really need to get those houses into proper homes, so that people in our communities can utilise them to the best effect.

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

Of course, the Member is right to raise this issue. We’ve had great success with the Houses into Homes scheme, where the money recirculates back into the system and purchases more homes. I would encourage local authorities to use the management orders, where properties are empty and becoming a blight on their community, to enforce that. We also introduced a council tax scheme around second homes, where that can be used also as an additional levy to raise cash, to stimulate people to thinking about what are they going to do with that property. I will update the Members with the numbers—I don’t have them to hand, but I will ensure the Member is made aware of them—the current position we find ourselves in.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

The Conservative spokesperson, Mark Isherwood.

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

Diolch, Llywydd. We heard at Citizens Advice Flintshire’s annual general meeting this summer that the Welsh Government was moving to the commissioning of advice services. I wonder whether you could say a little bit more about that, and confirm how you will ensure that organisations operating in Wales providing critical work—not only the larger ones, but the smaller ones—in terms of crisis intervention and support are protected against the larger organisations operating in England and elsewhere in the UK, who, on a pure cost basis, are likely to undercut organisations in Wales.

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I’m very conscious of the difficulty that some smaller organisations have in commissioning, but we will look very specifically around the criteria expected on that, about having local connections, and making sure that they can deliver good, quality services.

I would like to give confidence to the Member around reassuring him, and others, about the funding mechanism in place. But, of course, budgets are extremely tight at the moment, and the budget process is coming up, of course. Where services are affordable, we will deliver them, and I hope that we can give confidence to some of the smaller organisations that the criteria around that will not disadvantage them.

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

Thank you. Well, in the context of both the budget process and the Bevan Foundation latest ‘state of Wales’ briefing, published at the end of July, which said Wales has the third highest poverty rate in the UK, behind only London and the west midlands, with ‘little change in the headline rate’, how do you respond to the Public Policy Institute for Wales August report, ‘Participatory Budgeting: An Evidence Review’? They highlighted Porto Alegre in Brazil as the birthplace of participatory budgeting, saying the process there

‘has fundamentally changed the relationship between citizen and state, improved the functioning of government and led to improved public services and infrastructure.’

But, in Wales to date, the use of participatory budgeting

‘has been more modest, and the impact has, as a result, been smaller.’

And they recommend that, in Wales,

‘the focus in the short term might usefully be on laying the foundations’

of participatory budgeting in future budgets, alongside the use of other forms of engagement or consultation that signal an intention to promote greater public awareness of, and involvement in, the Welsh Government’s spending decisions. What consideration will you be giving to their findings?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

Well, I find their comments, as always, very interesting. What I would suggest is that the Welsh Government has been very proactive in this space. By legislating the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015, we’ve put a duty on public bodies to have engagement with communities and interested parties. So, I would disagree with the fact Wales is behind the curve here; actually, we’ve legislated prior to any other country doing that.

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

I think more the issue is that Porto Alegre, which piloted this, is clearly ahead of the curve, and has quantifiable outcomes that can be looked at. And what this is is part of a broader agenda, which I hope you might look at and embrace.

My final question is to move to housing in the context of communities. As you know, Community Housing Cymru signed a compact with the Welsh Government and the Welsh Local Government Association last December, underpinned by a commitment for housing associations to work in partnership to maximise housing delivery for the local area. What reciprocal responsibility lies with local authorities to work with housing associations to ensure that their resources also maximise social housing delivery for the local area?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

Well, the compact changed last year, so it includes now the Welsh Local Government Association. So, local authorities are very keen to ensure that they work with housing associations even where stock retention has remained in some local authorities, like where the Member lives. So, there is operational work between the authority, registered social landlords that work in the area, and Government. That’s what the compact was all about, and it’s extended to a tripartite agreement now.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

UKIP spokesperson, Gareth Bennett.

Gareth Bennett (UKIP, South Wales Central)

Diolch, Llywydd. Good afternoon, Minister, and welcome back to the Chamber. Yesterday, one of your backbench Members, Hefin David, raised the issue of the remediation of brownfield sites. Now, I realise that brownfield sites can be problematic to develop, but there are some brownfield sites that can be prepared for housing relatively cheaply. So, I wondered what involvement your department has currently with the development of brownfield sites for housing.

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I work very closely with my Cabinet colleagues, in particular, Ken Skates and Lesley Griffiths, on the issue of bringing housing opportunities forward. Brownfield sites is one of those areas we have discussions about, as with all other land opportunities that my colleagues around the Cabinet table can bring to the table, including the health sector.

Gareth Bennett (UKIP, South Wales Central)

You’ve mentioned this before. When I did Minister’s questions with you for the first time in April, you mentioned your ongoing discussions with Ken Skates’s department and the possible use of Welsh Government land for brownfield housing development, and you suggested at that time that there were—at least, I took the suggestion to be that there were—many redundant NHS buildings that could be used in that capacity. So, do you have any more details on how this process is ongoing, and how close you are to developing any of these possible sites?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I’ve had several offers of land from Ken Skates, the Minister for infrastructure, and we are working through those on the affordability of delivery now, and looking at other partners. I will be announcing shortly a decision on the innovative housing schemes, which will include new opportunities for developments across Wales, which I believe are quite exciting, and the sector is looking forward to that.

Gareth Bennett (UKIP, South Wales Central)

Thanks. Oddly, my next question was on your £20 million innovation scheme, which you’ve now mentioned yourself. Obviously, your announcement is coming shortly. Is there anything you can give us here today regarding that scheme?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

Well, I think there’s a huge opportunity. I saw some of the submissions that came through; the closing date was Friday of last week. Some are very innovative about power house-type homes—build a home that produces electricity, so there’s no energy bills to the consumer but added value to the grid. Some of it’s about modular units for the under 35s. So, there is a whole host of opportunities there, but I will make a statement to the Chamber once I’ve decided what the allocation should be.

Mohammad Asghar (Conservative, South Wales East)

3. What measures will the Cabinet Secretary take to combat modern slavery in the next 12 months? (OAQ51004)

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

Thank you. We are committed to continuing working with police and crime commissioners and other partners in continuing to tackle slavery here in Wales.

Mohammad Asghar (Conservative, South Wales East)

Thank you for that answer, Minister. Modern slavery in Wales is on the rise. In 2015, there were 134 referrals of potential victims of slavery. This showed an increase of over 91 per cent on the previous year. However, the real figure is likely to be much higher due to the secrecy and the tight control that the perpetrators have on their victims. Cabinet Secretary, what further measures does the Welsh Government intend to take to increase awareness of modern slavery and to ensure local authorities, public bodies, and voluntary organisations are able to recognise the signs that someone could be a victim of modern slavery in Wales?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

Let’s look at the Member’s question carefully, and, actually, we could consider this to be somewhat of a success here in Wales, where we are identifying the issues around slavery and capturing the slave drivers and prosecuting them, and that’s absolutely the thing we should do. That’s why there’s been, I believe, an increase in identification of this. We are the only country in the UK to appoint an anti-slavery co-ordinator, and we were the first in the UK to do that. I would encourage other parts of the UK to actively seek to appoint an anti-slavery co-ordinator because, as a country, we can deliver on this much better. The Member is right about making sure that key agencies, key workers, can identify early on where people are thought to be enslaved and that our intelligence agencies and support phone numbers are available for individuals to report that, if they are to be identified by individuals.

David Rowlands (UKIP, South Wales East)

Until very recent times, slave labour was virtually unknown in the UK. Is it therefore true to say, Cabinet Secretary, that slave labour is the direct result of uncontrolled mass immigration? The sexual exploitation of women and children has dramatically increased over the last two decades—almost all controlled by immigrant gangs, exploiting immigrant workers. Does the Cabinet Secretary not agree that virtually non-existent border controls, brought about by free movement of people, has hugely exacerbated this truly evil manifestation in our country?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

Well, I can’t think of a word that the Member uttered there that I agree with him on. The fact of the matter is that this hasn’t been a hidden crime—slavery has been around for hundreds of years, and it was the British empire that started a lot of this off in the first place, and we should be the ones now stopping the whole issue of this. That’s why we have appointed an anti-slavery co-ordinator. I don’t think that mass immigration, as the Member talked about, has anything to do with the slavery we see today. In fact, I don’t even acknowledge the Member’s views in the fact that we have uncontrolled mass immigration; the Member is wrong to suggest that.

Joyce Watson (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

4. Will the Cabinet Secretary provide an update on the Welsh Government’s childcare pilot scheme? (OAQ51034)

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

Thank you for your question. All seven early implementer local authorities are open for applications and already children in Wales in these pilot areas are receiving free childcare. Applications are already being processed for additionality to these pilot schemes.

Joyce Watson (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

I thank you for your answer, Cabinet Secretary, and I’m pleased to see that a number of the families will be from the Gwynedd area, included within that pilot. I do think that piloting the childcare offer is the right approach. We’ve all seen that some local authorities and other providers in England are having huge problems with rolling out their project. So, do you agree with me that the problems that have already been encountered by parents and providers in England underlined the importance of actually piloting this in the first place?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

Of course, and we’ve taken the steady approach, but we have hundreds of young children in our childcare settings across Wales today and we should be really encouraged by the fact that we’ve had very few problems identified currently. I dare say we will encounter problems, but not on the scale that the English model started off with. I do understand that the problems in England were challenging because of the big-bang approach. We haven’t taken that approach, and I’m confident that we are doing this the right way.

Andrew RT Davies (Conservative, South Wales Central)

Minister, when you were giving your evidence to committee some months ago, and then the education Secretary came in just after you, there seemed to be a little bit of confusion as to exactly how the money would flow around the system to provide this provision when it is universally rolled out from the pilot scheme. How are you taking this across Government because, from my understanding of the evidence you gave, you were looking at the school setting to make some of the provision? Obviously, without additional money being made available, that is going to be very challenging for many schools to provide that provision. So, have you identified the budget lines where this money is going to come from and, indeed, can you confirm today where that money will be in the future?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

Part of the pilot scheme process is about learning about how this money will flow. Out of the six models, seven local authorities want a joint pilot scheme. There are all different models of delivery: some are purely school settings and some are school and private settings. So, we are understanding what works best for parents, and, ultimately, that’s what we’re seeking to clarify: what is it that works for families across Wales?

I wouldn’t worry about the finances of this. This will be delivered. We are working with HMRC. Actually, the Member may be helpful to us as well. I will contact the Member in terms of dealings with HMRC. We do have a piece of legislation that we are likely to introduce to ensure that we can use the data package that HMRC are using for families in Wales, to deliver the package as we move forward. It would be of great help if the Member could be supportive in that process.

Llyr Gruffydd (Plaid Cymru, North Wales)

You’ll know—and I’m sure you’ll sigh when I raise this again—my concerns about the lack of a workforce strategy for childcare workers. We know it was in draft form three years ago, and despite promises to the contrary, we still haven’t seen a strategy in place, and I’ve registered my concerns now that that’s been rolled into the new employability programme, which doesn’t go live until 2019. But in the meantime, of course, the pilots are running and we’re all for that, and the clock is ticking in terms of rolling the scheme out fully and nationally. So, my question is: how can you be sure that without a strong workforce strategy in place that not only do you have sufficient numbers of childcare workers to be able to deliver the fully rolled out childcare offer, but also that those workers are sufficiently qualified and that they are the best childcare workers that we could possibly have?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

Well, I pay tribute to all the childcare workers across Wales. They do a fantastic job, and I should declare an interest as my wife is one. I would say that they are the best in terms of delivery of services. Can I say the Member is right to raise the issue again? We recognise that rolling this programme out on a measured basis gives us the opportunity for the sector to be developed as well, and we are working with the sector in order for the right people, the right development of skills, to deliver the childcare pledge. The caring sector not just in childcare, but in adult social services as well, is something that the Minister and I have had several discussions on, about how we develop that, and Julie James, the Minister responsible for the employability programme, will have more details as we move forward.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Ynys Môn)

5. Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on homelessness in Ynys Môn? (OAQ51027) [W]

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

Our focus on prevention is having a positive impact in both Ynys Môn and the rest of Wales. In total, we have prevented 10,300 households from becoming homeless. We are continuing to support services in Ynys Môn to support those who are homeless, rough sleeping or at risk of homelessness.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Ynys Môn)

Thank you. This month, I met with staff and managers of some of the organisations and charities that do excellent work on Anglesey in tackling and dealing with homelessness, including The Wallich and Digartref Môn, and Gorwel, also. Unfortunately, being asked to do more and more with reducing resources means that they are now reaching a point where it is entirely impossible to achieve, and the threat of a cut to the Supporting People fund from the Welsh Government risks undoing and undermining much of the good work that is and has been done in Anglesey and other parts of Wales. Does the Minister recognise that fact and accept that if the Welsh Government doesn’t maintain the financial support for these organisations they will be making a grave error and putting pressure on some of the most vulnerable people in our society?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

Well, I agree with the Member’s concerns about how the Supporting People budget helps many homeless people not just in his own constituency, but right across Wales. But there is no guarantee as this point in the budget stages that I can protect Supporting People or other elements of funding in my budget. It’s a very difficult financial settlement we find ourselves in, and I will have to make that decision as we move forward to 3 October, but I’m sure I have listened very carefully to those concerned, of the significant lobby that’s out there in the Supporting People field.

Mark Isherwood (Conservative, North Wales)

I endorse that point. The Welsh Government has said it’s not possible to make comparisons of numbers of eligible households between 2015-16 and 2016-17 because of issues of data quality of the 2015-16 figures, and of course changes to the returns for 2016-17 with the new legislation. We hope figures of suitable or sufficient data quality will be available soon. However, in the five preceding years, the number of homeless households on Anglesey fell from 125 to 45. It also fell in places like Gwynedd, Wrexham and Torfaen, but they increased in places like Neath Port Talbot, from 140 to 195, and Flintshire, from 55 to 95. What consideration have you given to establishing why we’re getting these different patterns in different parts of Wales, irrespective of the political colour of the councils at the time?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

Yes, and the Member is right on what he raises around the data collection. What I’ve asked the team to do is look at, specifically, all areas to have some sort of consistency about interpretation and measurement and how that looks. It may be that it is about interpretation of what that looks like to individual reporting. I fear that we have to have more consistency around data and therefore are able to put investments in the appropriate places where that data has spiked or is increasing.

Michelle Brown (UKIP, North Wales)

Cabinet Secretary, winter’s fast approaching and there’s going to be many people in Llandudno and along the north Wales coast and elsewhere who are going to be forced to rough-sleep this winter because they’ve literally got nowhere else to go. What measures have you put in place already to ensure that these people are helped into safe, secure, warm accommodation—and long-term accommodation—before winter actually sets in this year?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I’ve asked all authorities to prepare a cold weather plan for homelessness and rough sleeping to ensure that there are facilities available for trigger points within the winter period. I would also ask the Member to also consider her party’s position on where we are now: about to introduce the ending of the right to buy, which protects social housing stock in Wales. Therefore, it would be really good if the Member could consider supporting that Bill as opposed to objecting with her Conservative friends.

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

6. Will the Cabinet Secretary outline how he intends to increase incentives in the private sector to build more homes in Wales? (OAQ51043) [W]

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I thank the Member for her question. Through Help to Buy Wales, the House Builders Engagement Programme and the Wales property development fund, we work closely with the sector to make Wales an attractive place for private developers to build. I will be making an announcement tomorrow about additional support for home builders and small and medium-sized enterprises.

Mair Eluned (Labour, Mid and West Wales)

Well, that’s very good news, and I just hope that, in responding tomorrow, you will take on board the points made by the Federation of Master Builders, who have suggested that there is a lack of available small sites and a shortage of finance, which precludes small and medium-sized businesses from increasing their delivery of new homes. I just wondered, on top of your announcement tomorrow, whether you have been working with your other Cabinet Secretaries to make sure that there is an all-departmental approach to what is, I think, a very serious problem.

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

Lesley Griffiths and I meet the Home Builders Federation on a regular basis. We’ve got a meeting very shortly. The Member will have to wait for the details of the scheme, but I hope, when she reads the announcement, she will be encouraged by the content.

David Melding (Conservative, South Wales Central)

I commend Eluned Morgan’s point about the need for more SME builders, as a crucial sector that, in previous decades, provided for a lot of growth. One thing you could do is copy the scheme in England whereby local authorities have their Treasury grant increased by the value of the increase in council tax that comes with new house building. That would be a great incentive.

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I think what would be really useful to the Welsh Government is to have a lift of the borrowing cap on local authorities, which would allow local authorities and others to invest with SMEs to build more properties for our communities, but it’s just a Treasury rule that needs addressing.

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

7. Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on the use of public spaces protection orders to ensure community safety? (OAQ51017)

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I thank the Member for her question. The use of PSP orders is a matter for local authorities, who must consult with their local police force and community representatives.

Janet Finch-Saunders (Conservative, Aberconwy)

That’s a bit brave. Okay. With the introduction of public spaces protection orders going forward, you’ll be aware of the media outcry, actually, in Conway, with the previous cabinet, I might add, where it has been proven that enforcement officers—external ones—have been very overzealous in terms of targeting my constituents and visitors. Now, with the public spaces protection orders going forward, we’re being told that this is a remedy. How are you going to be working, Cabinet Secretary, with the UK Government and our chief constables across Wales to perhaps look at making PCSOs in uniform more involved in these kinds of environmental crimes, going forward. I have raised it before with you and with your predecessor—about how we can perhaps have a more uniform approach in terms of enforcement across Wales, and, certainly, I do believe that Conwy County Borough Council isn’t the only one where there are issues regarding the enforcement of FPNs and those kinds of environmental crimes.

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I think the Member is right to raise the issue. Public spaces protection orders were established under sections 59 to 65 of the Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Act 2014. They are a matter for local authorities and the police. I would also encourage support from the Member in regard to the devolution of policing. Therefore, we would be able to manage all of these issues from the Welsh Government, as opposed to asking her colleagues to try and help us with trying to change for the better our communities, with the support of the police and PCSOs.

David Lloyd (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

8. Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on plans to deliver a sustainable fostering service in Wales? (OAQ51010)

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

Thank you for a very important question. We recognise the vital role foster carers in Wales play in looking after children in care. As part of our Improving Outcomes for Children programme, we are working with partners to deliver a fostering in Wales network.

David Lloyd (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

Thank you for that answer. Further to that, you will be aware that Action for Children has recently claimed that foster care in Wales is in crisis. Figures show that 88 per cent of adults say that they are unlikely to ever consider fostering a child or young adult. So, I would ask: what further action is the Welsh Government planning in order to increase the numbers of foster carers, and do you agree that we need to move to an all-Wales standard, such as in terms of foster carer payments, with a view to reducing competition between providers and geographic areas of Wales?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I’ve got a working group looking at this. As well as the fostering in Wales framework, our work around promoting stable placements includes a review of special guardianship orders, investment in a new model of adoption support through the National Adoption Service, and a task and finish group on children’s residential care. I think this is one of the areas that I don’t think should be political in any way, where we have the interests of young people at heart. If the Member has any positive contributions to make, I would be very happy to receive them and feed them into the working group as we move forward.

Angela Burns (Conservative, Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire)

It’s not just the service that’s in crisis; some of the foster carers and the children that they care for are in crisis. Cabinet Secretary, what assurances can you give us that looked-after children will be able to access emergency support services, such as child and adolescent mental health services, if they are placed in foster placements that are outside the local authority that is responsible for their care order? I have a number of very unfortunate cases that bear witness that this is not happening, and I think we absolutely must change it.

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I would urge the Member to write to me specifically with those cases. I will take them up personally to ensure that we look at them with detailed analysis. Look, these young people who find themselves in a fostering placement or childcare setting are extremely vulnerable, and we should be doing more than what we do currently to make sure that these young people are safe and have resilience moving forward. I would welcome the Member’s letter when I receive that.

Adam Price (Plaid Cymru, Carmarthen East and Dinefwr)

9. What assessment has the Cabinet Secretary made of local support services available to unaccompanied refugee children? (OAQ51046)

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I thank the Member for his question. This year, I have provided £410,000 to help local authorities build capacity and expertise to support the arrival of unaccompanied asylum children in Wales.

Adam Price (Plaid Cymru, Carmarthen East and Dinefwr)

I’m grateful for the Cabinet Secretary’s response. I have passed him the details of Adam Bakhtiari, who is 17 years old, originally from Iran, living in my constituency, and is facing a very difficult situation if he were to be forced to move back to Iran for reasons that we don’t have time to go into here. But, in his case, he wasn’t given the support that one might’ve expected that he would’ve received. He couldn’t speak English, for example, and he had been placed in a situation where he couldn’t communicate. So, would the Cabinet Secretary look again, to see whether the support that he has referred to is actually reaching the right places and the right children, such as Adam, who deserve all support?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I think the Member is right to raise that, and I will ask my team who deal with this particular part of the department to give me reassurances about the finances and how they are distributed and used, particularly regarding the young gentleman that you raise with me. If the Member wishes to write to me with more detail, I’ll give that some more measured thought around my response to that.

Darren Millar (Conservative, Clwyd West)

Cabinet Secretary, will you join me in congratulating faith communities across Wales on the work that they have done in helping to welcome asylum seekers, including refugees and unaccompanied refugee children, here into Wales, and supporting them in terms of integrating them into our society and lowering community tensions?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I think faith communities play an important role in terms of making sure that we continue to keep a welcome in Wales, and I’m certainly happy to endorse the Member’s comments and thank them personally for the work that they’re doing in our communities.

Jayne Bryant (Labour, Newport West)

10. Will the Cabinet Secretary provide an update on the Welsh Government’s strategy for tackling domestic abuse? (OAQ51029)

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I thank the Member for her question. Our national strategy sets out the actions we are taking to support victims of domestic abuse. A delivery framework to support the strategy will be published shortly and we are also developing a communications framework, a survivor engagement framework and a model for sustainable funding of provision.

Jayne Bryant (Labour, Newport West)

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. The statistics on domestic violence are shocking. In Wales and England, on average, two women are killed by their partner or ex-partner every week. Domestic abuse-related crime is 10 per cent of the total crime—a figure that is increasing—yet it remains the violent crime least likely to be reported to the police. Whilst prosecution rates are rising year on year, reoffending rates remain too high. It’s estimated that four in 10 survivors of domestic abuse are repeat victims. The introduction of a domestic violence offenders register would shift the onus on to the perpetrators. This would allow the police to hold information on perpetrators, prioritise resources based on risk and, most importantly, better protect survivors. With this in mind, will the Cabinet Secretary explore the establishment of a Welsh domestic violence register?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

I personally am supportive of the Member’s principles behind this. I have written to Sarah Newton MP, Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Crime, Safeguarding and Vulnerability, to ascertain her views on a campaign for a register of perpetrators. I will consider the issue in light of her response around that. I’ve also sought some legal advice around the competency of the Assembly as to whether we can create a register or not, but I am exploring all options and I will write to the Member with more details when I receive them.

Nick Ramsay (Conservative, Monmouth)

Cabinet Secretary, I’m pleased that Jayne Bryant has raised this very important issue. I’ve had the privilege over a number of years as an Assembly Member to visit Women’s Aid groups across Wales and, obviously, in my own constituency, in Abergavenny, where I also visited a safe house, and I realise the important work they do, not just for the victims, but for the families, for children involved as well. I’m sure you’ll agree, though, Cabinet Secretary, it’s not just about strategy, important though that is; it’s about concrete action on the ground as well. So, how are you consulting fully with domestic violence charities to keep up-to-date with the issues that are affecting them from week to week, month to month, year to year, to make sure that the strategy and its goals that you and your Government are implementing are actually delivering real results on the ground that will assist victims of domestic violence and their families?

Carl Sargeant (Labour, Alyn and Deeside)

The Member is right to raise this issue. I’m very keen to ensure that we get a real response from real people when we are developing a strategy. That’s why I have survivors on my advisory panel, to tell me about their real-life experiences, to make sure we can deliver on those. I’m working currently with many of the sector individuals regarding sustainable funding models and service agreements, to look again at what services are required on the ground, not just driven by policy of the Government, but actually what people are saying they need in their communities, and I look forward to making those announcements and changes in the near future.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary.

3. 3. Topical Questions

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

As it is the start of a new term, I have accepted four topical questions on our agenda this afternoon, and therefore I probably won’t be in a position to call all of those who’ve requested a supplementary question unless the questions are unusually brief during this session. Therefore the first question is from David Rees.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

What discussions has the Welsh Government had regarding the impact on the Welsh steel sector of the joint venture between Tata Steel and ThyssenKrupp AG? (TAQ0044)

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Both I and the First Minister have spoken with Tata Steel UK CEO Bimlendra Jha about the announcement of the joint venture.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Well, thank you for that answer, Cabinet Secretary—very brief and very short.

Now, that announcement of a joint venture clearly has been something in the background, and many concerns have been expressed by steelworkers in my constituency and across Wales regarding the future of steel making here in Wales. Only 18 months ago we saw the threat of closure in the Port Talbot works. Beyond that we saw the threat of selling off the steel industry in south Wales, only to find that, eventually, they recognised that the plan, or ‘the bridge’, as it was known, actually did work, and therefore made the steel industry viable, and all those were removed.

But once again we face some uncertainty because of this announcement. I understand the unions have given a cautious welcome, but there are some issues, particularly in the detail, and we need to give confidence to the steelworkers in Wales who have dedicated themselves and committed themselves to improving steel making here in Wales. So, in that respect, can you tell me what discussions you have been having with Tata to ensure that the agreement to invest the £1 billion in steel making is going to be honoured by a new venture, because legally there’s a different entity now in place, or will be in place, particularly as that was at the cost of pensions to many workers?

What actions are you taking as a Welsh Government to ensure that the proposed advanced steel research centre that was being discussed will continue at Swansea University, and not perhaps be hived off for research in other parts of the EU? What assurances have you received for a sustainable future for steel making here in Wales, to ensure that the Port Talbot works is not short term, but is actually continued to be long term, and the jobs are long term? And what actions are you taking with the UK Government who, to be blunt, to this date have been very ineffective—my word is ‘useless’—because historically they’ve done nothing? But you need now to work with them to make sure they buy into steel making here in Wales.

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

Can I thank Dai Rees for his question and for the interest a number of Members have shown in this subject, not just today, but over many months and indeed years? I’d like to begin in responding to Dai Rees’s questions by putting on record my appreciation to the loyal, dedicated and skilled workers employed by Tata across Wales. They have shown incredible patience and loyalty. They have sacrificed in terms of their pension in reaching the point that we are at today, and they deserve to be shown equal respect and credit by Tata as an employer as they move towards the joint venture.

As I said, I’ve already spoken with the CEO of Tata Steel UK, and I’ve sought and been given a number of assurances. I would agree with the trade unions in the statement that they have issued that today’s announcement is to be welcomed cautiously. This paves the way for Europe’s second-biggest steel business to be formed, which could bring many benefits to the UK—benefits that could align and should align with the sector deal approach being taken forward as part of the UK industrial strategy. Last week, or last month, I met with the Secretary of State in the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy to discuss, amongst other things, the steel industry and the sector deal and how we needed to ensure that research development and innovation was at the heart of the sector deal approach for steel. I’ve been given assurance over the assets that exist across Wales and the UK—that there will be no closures; that the announcement paves the way to a sustainable and competitive future for the steel industry in Wales. But I will be seeking further discussions, not only with Tata but also ThyssenKrupp to ensure that the interests of Welsh workers are at the very heart of the joint venture.

I can assure the Member that our investment, our interest in the advanced steel innovation centre continues, and that project will be taken forward. I think one of the strengths of the research and development base in Tata Steel’s Wales operations is that it’s linked so strongly to higher education institutions in Wales, that it’s embedded within the higher education institution estate, and so that project will be taken forward.

The most important thing for steel making in the UK is that it is competitive so that it can be sustainable. Of course, the Member rightly raises the role that the UK Government can play in this regard, specifically concerning energy and the disparity between energy prices here and elsewhere. Action is still required in this regard. It is something that has been raised at an official level and at a political level with the UK Government and we still await a satisfactory response. Talks will be ongoing and I am in no doubt that discussions will be ongoing at the UK steel council, involving not just Tata Steel but other steel manufacturers in Wales, to press for a fair deal on energy.

My officials have also been engaged with officials at BEIS in recent days concerning this matter. We’ll be working jointly together in the interests of UK steel operations to ensure that those commitments that were made for the steel plants are honoured. Of course, the primary commitment concerns the blast furnaces at Port Talbot and the £1 billion pledge, which we expect to be honoured. But there are other conditions that will be honoured regardless of the joint venture’s details, concerning the £13 million that we’ve made available to Tata Steel UK. Those conditions include conditions on minimum employment periods of five years for workers, and they will be honoured by the joint venture.

Suzy Davies (Conservative, South Wales West)

Thank you very much. I particularly thank you for that last answer, Cabinet Secretary, because the five-year condition, of course, is something that you spoke a lot about when there was a possibility of sale for the site. When it comes to a five-year commitment, though, have you had any sense yet of what type of jobs the merged outfit is going to be prepared to commit to, and when will you find out what types of jobs are likely to be affected? Because the long-term sustainability is the crux here, rather than a simple five-year conditionality? One was supposed to lead to the other. The types of jobs that are going to be lost in Port Talbot—we need to know what types of jobs they are in order for us to be able to scrutinise further any plans that they may have on that.

The Welsh Government in the past has pledged to retrain people who have lost their jobs already. I imagine you may want to say something about that in the future as well. Is there anything that can be done on the back of this that will help accelerate interest in the enterprise zone in Port Talbot? And is there any influence that you can bring to bear that may—how can I put this—maximise the number of relevant jobs that can be brought to the new prison that we’ll be discussing this afternoon, if in fact it does come to the area?

And then I just wanted a little bit of reassurance myself on the steel science centre, because obviously this is a focal anchor project of the Swansea bay city deal. It was based on Tata itself, actually—comments that they had made about carbon-positive products and new construction material. I think we need to know whether ThyssenKrupp is also interested in this new way ahead before we can be completely satisfied that the science centre is sustainable.

Ken Skates (Labour, Clwyd South)

I thank Suzy Davies for her questions and assure her that steel-making jobs are our priority, not just for Port Talbot but for other sites across Wales. I’ll be seeking specific assurance over jobs within the procurement departments as well within the Welsh assets. In terms of other jobs that have been speculated over elsewhere, I think the unions have made clear that the vast majority of human resources and IT jobs exist outside of the UK and therefore the impact of any reduction in that regard will not have major implications for steel sites within Wales, but I am seeking assurance specifically, as I say, over procurement jobs, and over the steel-making jobs likewise.

In terms of research and development, particularly as we transition to a low-carbon economy, I’m confident that the Welsh sites are in prime position to take advantage of initiatives and support from Welsh Government and from the UK Government, should it be forthcoming within the sector deal. There is no doubt in my mind that the steel innovation centre, which forms a critical part of the Swansea bay city deal, will go ahead with the original aspiration unchanged, delivering through a partnership approach a new form of innovation, research and development that can drive an economy of the future. I have every confidence that that will continue to be a major part of the city deal and will go on to become a major success. Indeed, the investment will be considered by the investment board this week. I was also assured by the CEO of Tata Steel UK that he will continue to fight as hard as he can for Welsh interests within the joint venture. That includes Welsh interests insofar as jobs are concerned and insofar as research and development is concerned. He identified the fact that research and development is strongly embedded within higher education institutions within Wales as a major reason why it’s in such a strong position.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. The second question—Bethan Jenkins.

Bethan Sayed (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

Will the Cabinet Secretary outline the lessons that have been learnt from the Kris Wade scandal at the ABMU Health Board? (TAQ0043)

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

There are important, wide-ranging lessons to be learned from this case by the whole of the national health service here in Wales, including Abertawe Bro Morgannwg University Local Health Board. I’ve asked Healthcare Inspectorate Wales to undertake an independent review to provide further reassurance and ensure that lessons are learned. I set this out in my recent statement, and will keep Assembly Members up to date.

Bethan Sayed (Plaid Cymru, South Wales West)

Thank you for that response. It’s quite hard to know where to start in relation to this issue—an internal report that is fundamentally flawed, and what a former consultant at ABMU said was created by middle-grade managers as a bolt-on to their day job. That, in itself, is a damning indictment of this report. You say today that it’s an independent review. What I read in the written statement was that it was to be an assessment of this review. So, I would like clarification that it is going to be a truly independent review. And yesterday, the First Minister said, and I quote:

‘It is absolutely crucial that the investigation is independent. It’s not for me then to tell Healthcare Inspectorate Wales what they should and shouldn’t do’.

Yet, the outline of a limited remit is in your statement last week. So, I want to know, if this is the remit, will you commit to changing it? Because we need to look at the case as a whole, including the mistakes made by ABMU in the initial handling of allegations against Kris Wade: his employment, the failure to get a Criminal Records Bureau check, the failure to dismiss him, possible nepotism, and the very real possibility that if ABMU had acted sooner, the murder of Christine James might have been prevented. These are questions that we really need to get to grips with, as well as the potential conflict of interest that exists now with the interim chief executive of the health board.

I want to understand as well, without being disrespectful, how did it take so long for you to give this to Healthcare Inspectorate Wales? I am led to understand that this report was ready in January, and we only had a written statement last week. Why did you decide on Healthcare Inspectorate Wales rather than an independent review, as has happened in other cases, so I can understand that process, and how will it happen so that people can give evidence to it, so that those who were allegedly asked to give evidence in the last internal investigation can give evidence and those who are directly affected by this scandal can be involved in the process? I met with the husband of Christine James, the lady who was murdered by Kris Wade, yesterday—Stuart James—and he had to put on the television and find out via the television that this report even existed. That is, frankly, unacceptable. We cannot have a situation where people have to watch the media for them to find out what’s happening in relation to a person who has done something fundamentally awful to a member of his family. So, I’ll finish with this, and he doesn’t want to do any media interviews, but this is what he told me:

‘It should be remembered that this murder has had significant life-changing effects, both upon Christine James’s family, who are left behind, and also those individuals who are mistreated in the care environment where they should have been at their safest. It is not about numbers, cost, political prizes. It is about getting to the truth and ensuring that those responsible for the failings are brought to account and that they themselves understand what those failings are.’

I plead with you, Cabinet Secretary: there are managers and people who have made decisions who are still in their roles or who have had payouts from that health board who simply should not have had them, based on the way that they’ve operated in this health board, and I will not, as far as I am an Assembly Member, let these people down. Victims have been let down. We have seen scandals in the past by care homes, by celebrities in the British system, and we cannot let this happen under our watch. So, please, please make sure that this independent inquiry works for the sake of all those involved.

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

I take the view that the independent review remit is sufficiently broad for HIW to do their job. They are genuinely an independent inspectorate, and the challenge is to ensure that they provide a review that does provide reassurance in looking at what happened. There’s also a challenge for all of us in understanding, not just what happened at the time, but where we are now as well. And some of this is about the assurance we provide for our system moving forward. Health Inspectorate Wales is the appropriate body to undertake this investigation. I know you made a number of comments about linking the conduct complained of during the employment and the subsequent murder. It’s worth reminding ourselves that the three issues complained of were referred to the police and it was the criminal justice system that investigated and decided not to pursue any further action. I think there are genuine questions for us to understand about what happened at the time and whether that will that be the same approach taken now.

On the point about the link between the three serious issues complained of during his time in employment and the murder, I think politicians of any shade should hesitate before seeking to draw a direct link between the employment and the murder. I think it is important to understand, following the review, whether there is any real evidence that the behaviour complained of had any part to play in the subsequent murder. I do understand why there are such high emotions around this by people directly affected and the families, both of the alleged victims, the three people who had raised complaints about Kris Wade during his conduct as an employee, as well as the family of Christine James. So, I take this seriously, and I do await the report from HIW and the review they’re undertaking and I don’t seek to limit their ability to talk to people in undertaking a proper and robust review of what’s happened. I’ve said I’ll keep Members updated. If there’s more for me or the Government to do, once that review is provided, then I’ll be completely transparent with Members about decisions that I take and further next steps if they’re required.

Caroline Jones (UKIP, South Wales West)

Cabinet Secretary, the findings of ABMU’s internal report on Kris Wade stated that they did not robustly pursue complaints and stated, in effect, that there was a culture in some areas of basing actions on, I quote, ‘the believability of patients’ is absolutely shocking. I note, and fully supported the calls of the BMA and other opposition parties that there should be an independent inquiry. I am glad that the First Minister stated his support for this yesterday. We want the health board to uphold the highest of standards. The public cannot be assured that it will do this if we simply let it to investigate itself. Consequently, Cabinet Secretary, can you update us on what discussions you have had with Healthcare Inspectorate Wales to expedite an independent inquiry? Thank you.

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

Thank you for the comments and questions. The health board review, the internal review, I know has regularly been referred to as being flawed. It’s not a whitewash. When you look at and read the report they recognise there were failings in the way they went about their business, both through the initial employment of Kris Wade and through dealing with the complaints that were made about his conduct as an employee of the health board. And I think it’s really important to recognise that we expect health boards to investigate themselves, and to understand, where something has gone wrong, including when it’s gone seriously wrong, they still have a responsibility to investigate that conduct and to try for themselves to understand lessons to be learned, in addition to the ability to have an independent review. I think the fact that they’ve been prepared to say to themselves that they recognise that there were failings, they recognise that the initial complaints were not robustly investigated, that the approach focused too much on the believability of the complainants, rather than actually trying to find the truth—those are things that none of us should try and pretend are not in that report and are not serious issues in the here and now as to how we expect future concerns to be properly and robustly dealt with. In addition to those health boards needing to investigate themselves, I set out in this case, as I said earlier in response to the question and in the written statement, that HIW will undertake their own independent review, they will report and I will ensure that Members are fully up to date, including, of course, making available the report that they do provide.

David Rees (Labour, Aberavon)

Last week, Cabinet Secretary, I met with the chair of ABMU and the senior officer who was one of the seekers of that report to seek reassurances that if this situation arose today, it would be identified quicker and we wouldn’t be having the same failures that happened before. Whilst the Member for South Wales West keeps harping on about lessons learnt, it is important to my constituents that lessons are learnt again, because they need the confidence that the systems are in place. Now, they assured me that they were in place, but will you ensure that HIW not just assess their assessment, but they’re actually comfortable and confident that the systems that have been identified are in place so that this cannot happen again, and that that will be part of the remit?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

I think that is covered in the remit. We expect the assurance to be provided by HIW about current practice, to look at the identified and recognised failings and assure that those are things we have designed out of our system—as an example, the challenge about not properly checking the criminal records check. It’s one thing to say, ‘Well, would that person have passed a records check even if it had been done at the time, at the point of initial employment?’, and, actually, it’s likely they would have done, but the challenge is, in any event: how do you actually remove the risk? And we now have a process across the national health service where shared services undertake that, so people should not be able to get into our national health service in the same way and avoid a criminal records check, for example. So, I recognise the point that you make, robustly as well, that there does need to be proper reassurance that Members can place faith and reliance, because it matters not just to Members within the Abertawe Bro Morgannwg university health board area; this is an issue for the whole service to take lessons and learning from and to properly reassure the public about the way I expect our health service to behave.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. The next question is from Angela Burns.

Angela Burns (Conservative, Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire)

Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on the All-Wales Medicines Strategy Group’s decision not to make Avastin, a potentially life-prolonging cancer drug, routinely available on the Welsh NHS? (TAQ0041)

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

The All Wales Medicines Strategy Group, the AWMSG, has appraised Avastin to treat recurrent or advanced cervical cancer. The AWMSG recommended against its routine use as the evidence for clinical cost-effectiveness was insufficient.

Angela Burns (Conservative, Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire)

Thank you for that very disappointing answer, I have to say. The All Wales Medicines Strategy Group does estimate that each year around 50 cervical cancer patients in Wales will receive a terminal diagnosis who could require Avastin treatment. But given your endorsement of their recommendation, I find it very hard to understand the process going forward for these patients. Cervical cancer patients will now have to attempt to access this via the independent patient funding request route, which is often an untimely and uncertain process, and I do accept, Cabinet Secretary, that you’ve made great strides to try to solve some of the problems there. But, nonetheless, in 2016 the IPFR annual report stated that an average of just 50 per cent of all cancer drug requests were accepted, so by this estimation potentially half of all of those with advanced stage cervical cancer will not get access to a potentially life-prolonging drug.

What assurances can you give that all cervical cancer patients who need Avastin will be able to access it in a timely manner via IPFR, especially when you remember that time is a luxury that these patients can ill afford? And could you please explain to me why it is the case that the Scottish Medicines Consortium and England’s cancer drugs fund both approved Avastin as a drug routinely accessible within their respective health services, whilst the All Wales Medicines Strategy Group did not? Why is your Government putting female cancer patients in Wales at a distinct disadvantage to English and Scottish patients in the same situation? And finally, Cabinet Secretary, what efforts has your Government made to ensure greater consistency in how clinicians across Wales’s seven health boards will interpret the clinical exceptionality clause when submitting applications via the IPFR? These women are in desperate need, it’s a dreadful disease, it buys them a little time, and they have as much right as their sisters across any of the borders north or to the east of us.

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

This is a good example of where there are emotionally charged, and understandably so, questions for our national health service to address, and to be properly sensitive and yet robust about our evidence base for actually making choices. And it’s a good example of whether we make choices on an evidence base, about how we use our precious and finite resources, or whether we make choices on a campaign-led basis. The honest truth is that we have an expert group that has reviewed the evidence on a clinical and cost-effectiveness basis, and they have given us their recommendation. If I simply say that I will overturn that in the absence of evidence that it is the right thing to do for the whole service, then I don’t think I’m meeting the responsibilities that I have and I take seriously as Cabinet Secretary for health for the people of Wales.

And, when we look at Scotland, they made a different choice on the evidence presented to them. It’s not for me to try and explain their system. When you speak about England, though, the cancer drugs fund has got a notice of removal around Avastin. So, this is not going to be routinely available at the end of this month in the English system, because NICE do not appraise Avastin as something that’s clinically cost effective for routine use. So, if the evidence changes, and if the price changes along with that, then of course we can look at that again.

We’ve just been through a significant review on the independent patient funding request process, to look again at these questions of how any form of health intervention is looked at to be clinically effective and cost-effective as well. And nobody disagrees that we need that twin approach to how we make decisions for our service. And that is where we need to be. Otherwise, we have a system that will not be affordable and not make good value for precious and significant public funds put in to our health service. The IPFR group review, we said it would be completed by the end of September, all clinicians up to speed and up to date. I have previously committed to providing information to Members on the new way in which that reform process will be working, and I stand by the commitments that I made, to be transparent about information, and to make sure Members are regularly updated on the current and future practice.

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Plaid Cymru, Ynys Môn)

This is one of those situations that’s likely to get more and more common, I guess, as treatments that prolong life, rather than cure cancer, get developed, but with a potential for major cost implications. Now, we’ve had concerns, which you know well about, about IPFR and exceptionality, and I certainly look forward to seeing how changes recently announced will improve access. But we’re also concerned about whether the current appraisal processes reflect the changing way that medicines are developed and used in clinical practice. Do you think that the current system is sustainable, or will public concerns—whether those concerns are justified or not—lead to you making changes, do you think?

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

I’ve not had any serious or significant thought to undo either the NICE appraisal process for us to withdraw from that, or, indeed, to change the way the AWMSG undertake their appraisal process. We have particular different ways to look at orphan and ultra-orphan medications, recognising the rarity of those conditions. And these are incredibly difficult choices. I recognise these are incredibly charged for individuals who have conditions, and are looking for the health service to help prolong their life. I do understand that, and it’s why I recognise these are sensitive and emotionally charged choices to make.

I’m open to other people having a view on how we could look at a different way to have a generally evidence-led process. I certainly wouldn’t say, ‘It’s this far, and no further, and no change ever, ever, ever.’ But, actually, we have a process that is robust, that is respected and accepted by clinicians across the country, and I would need to be persuaded that there is a better way to do that. If there’s evidence available to do that, I’ll happily ensure that it’s looked at, but, again, as politicians, we need to recognise our role and responsibilities within the system, and I won’t put myself in the place of these independent experts who are making choices, based on their expertise, for the good of our whole system. There’s something here about the things that we could and should do as politicians, and equally to recognise that, sometimes, we have to be responsible and not get involved in a campaign that looks like it might be the right thing to do from an emotional point of view, but, actually, we’ll fundamentally undermine parts of the rest of our service for those who need it if we make choices that we know are not sustainable and not based on clinical effectiveness.

Lynne Neagle (Labour, Torfaen)

Cabinet Secretary, I know that you are aware of my concerns about access to medicines generally, and I’m grateful to you for meeting with me previously to discuss Avastin. And I do understand the difficulties, but I think we also have to recognise that it’s very difficult for people to understand that something can be made available in Scotland, and in England, and not in Wales. I have raised with you previously my concerns about the All Wales Medicines Strategy Group, and the transparency involved, and also the levels of engagement with the drugs manufacturers, which does appear to vary between the different countries in the UK.

So, I would like to ask whether this is something you will take another look at, to check that the AWMSG has done absolutely everything possible to engage with the manufacturer—in this instance, Roche. But you also mentioned price. I would be grateful if you could advise whether there have been any discussions between AWMSG and Roche about obtaining a suitable patient access scheme that would bring down the cost, and enable this to be made available to patients in Wales.

Vaughan Gething (Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth)

I’m happy to respond to those points now, actually, because in terms of the AWMSG and their transparency, they actually undertake their review meetings in public. People can and do attend. For example, the recent decision where they did not recommend that we take forward PrEP on an all-Wales consistent basis, and we announced a trial, that meeting took place in public and the decisions are published. They are made publicly available. So, this isn’t a committee that meets in secret and keeps its decisions secret either. In terms of this particular issue, on price, yes, there was engagement. Roche offered a patient access scheme, a reduction on the headline price, and it was on that basis that Avastin was then appraised. So, there was engagement through the appraisal process, and equally, after the AWMSG indicated their initial decision, their likely decision, they were given the opportunity to come back and to use the appeal mechanisms that we have, and to date, they’ve chosen not to do so. That’s a choice for them, but they were told at an early stage what the likely choice was going to be. They were given the opportunity to appeal before the choice came to me, after that, but they’ve chosen not to, and that’s a matter for them.

The position in England where the cancer drugs fund has recommended removal, there is a notice of removal, so from October this will not be available in the English system. That’s partly because NICE recommended to the system in England that the evidence wasn’t there that it was clinically effective and cost-effective at the same time. So, in that sense, there’s a consistent approach now being taken. The cancer drugs fund distorted the picture by actually providing medication, providing hope to people, yes, but every independent and objective review said that it was poor value for money, and I think ethically challenged, frankly, and I think ethically outrageous to provide medications that were not effective that gave people the hope and the impression that they would be. We need to stick to a genuine evidence-led system, where we give people realistic points about the efficacy of the treatments available, and we make them available on a much more consistent basis, and that will be the focus of this Government. It’s why, for example, we’ve introduced the new treatment fund.

Elin Jones (Plaid Cymru, Ceredigion)

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary. And the final topical question from Adam Price.

Adam Price (Plaid Cymru, Carmarthen East and Dinefwr)

In light of events in Catalonia, what discussions has the First Minister had with the UK Government as part of the UK-EU Brexit negotiations regarding the rights of sub-state governments to act autonomously without being restricted by the state government? (TAQ0042)

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Llywydd, the Joint Ministerial Committee on European Negotiations has been established as the forum where devolved Governments can seek to influence UK-EU Brexit negotiations. I represent the Welsh Government on that JMC. Events in Catalonia, to which this question refers, have not been discussed at a meeting of the committee.

Adam Price (Plaid Cymru, Carmarthen East and Dinefwr)

At the heart of this question, of course, is the fundamental right of nations to self-determination, which is indeed enshrined in the UN charter, and as the tectonic plates are shifting around us in these islands, in the European mainland, and across the world, it is increasingly under threat from a sort of irredentist power grab from the central state, as they themselves feel their supremacy challenged. I’ve heard the Cabinet Secretary refer to the almost neo-colonialist attitudes you hear at the joint ministerial council when Brexit is discussed. This question is, of course, as he alludes, inspired by the terrible events that we’re seeing in Catalonia, and Members will be troubled to hear that in the last few hours the Guardia Civil, the Spanish state police, have raided the Generalitat, the headquarters of the Catalan Government. The Catalan President has declared that Catalan autonomy is effectively now suspended by the Spanish state.

Can I urge the Cabinet Secretary to do what the Scottish Government has done, to send a message of solidarity to the Catalan people and the Catalan Government, as they stand there now in front of the Generalitat, declaiming, ‘No tinc por’?

Does dim ofn.

We are not afraid. Let’s say with them that we’re not afraid either. We stand with them, and with the people of Kurdistan that are also people being threatened by a referendum that will be prevented by the Iraqi state Government on Monday as well. We stand in solidarity with all peoples of the world that ask only for this: the right to choose their own future.

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

Llywydd, the Member very passionately puts his view of the situation, as he’s absolutely entitled to do, and has drawn our attention to the concerning reports of the developing situation in Catalunya. The Welsh Government is absolutely clear: we believe in democratic principles and think that they should be respected. Democratic politics is the basis for resolving constitutional issues. What I’m not able to do is to act as though the Welsh Government had responsibility for the conduct of relationships with other European states or indeed with states elsewhere in the world. That is not a responsibility devolved to us and we mustn’t put ourselves in the position that makes it appear as though we think that would be the case.

Neil Hamilton (UKIP, Mid and West Wales)

The European Union’s own external action service website states that the EU believes that democracy is the only political system that can fully realise all human rights. Would it not be a useful exercise for the Welsh Government to encourage the United Kingdom Government to remind Spain, as a member state of the European Union, that it should live up to the principles that the European Union’s external action service said are embedded in the founding treaties, reinforced by the charter of fundamental rights, and that are fully declared as a result of the Lisbon treaty incorporating that charter into European law? A Government, like the Government of Spain, that is afraid of the votes of its own people at the ballot box is a precarious institution indeed, and this Assembly, of all institutions, ought to stand up for the rights of small peoples or small nations to self-determination, if that is what they wish. Like the Cabinet Secretary, I believe in the United Kingdom, but if the people of Wales were to vote for political independence, that is a right that should be expected and Catalonia deserves nothing less than that.

Mark Drakeford (Labour, Cardiff West)

The Member helpfully draws attention to the statements that exist within the European Union and elsewhere, and that is reflected entirely in what I said that, as a Welsh Government, we believe in the respect of democratic principles and democratic politics as the way to resolve constitutional and other disputes. But the Member is also right to say that these are responsibilities of the UK Government. That Government will hear what other parties and other elected politicians say and it’s right that people use this forum to make those views known. The Welsh Government has to respect the responsibilities that have been devolved to us and that’s what I intend to do.